#045: How to Become the Dad You Wish You Had | Justin Batt

It’s no secret that we’re facing a huge crisis of fatherlessness. So many fathers have physically or emotionally abandoned their children, largely because nobody ever showed them how to be a great dad. This problem is at the root of so many issues in our world. So, what’s the solution?

In this episode, Justin Batt from Daddy Saturday offers advice and encouragement to current or future dads on how to raise good kids who become great adults. We discuss:

• How do we fix the fatherlessness crisis?

• Practical advice on how to become a great dad from a father who’s spent 14,000 hours and 500 intentional Saturdays with his kids

• Encouragement for any men out there who feel like they don’t have what it takes to be a great father, especially because you didn’t receive it from your dad growing up

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

It's probably no surprise to you that we're facing a huge crisis of fatherlessness in our world where dads abandon their kids, either physically leaving or emotionally checking out. And as those of us who come from broken homes know this is extremely painful. It's extremely difficult. So many of us have experienced fathers who just left or at least emotionally checked out.

From our lives and not all of us have experienced that, right? Some of us have great fathers, even when our parents' marriage broke apart, but all of us can agree. This is a huge problem. And it's at the root of so many of the other problems that we see in our culture today. But there is a solution which we're gonna discuss in this episode.

And if you're not a dad, Keep listening. This is good stuff. It still applies to you, whether fatherhood's maybe two years away or 10 years away. And ladies listening right now, maybe you're married. Maybe you're not, but this is gonna be a great resource. Both this episode itself and my guests and his nonprofit for any men in your life who again, wanna become fathers and maybe they are fathers now.

So lots of good stuff in here for you as well. And what you're gonna get out of this episode, everyone is we're gonna talk about how serious. Is this crisis of fatherlessness and how do we fix it? You're gonna get practical advice on how to start becoming a great dad, perhaps even the, the father that you never had, that, that you wish you had from a dad who spent 14,000 hours and 500 intentional Saturdays.

With his kids and my guest gives encouragement to any of you men out there, especially who come from broken families, who, who feel like you just don't have what it takes to be a great dad. Like you're, you're not capable of doing that. So a lot of great content ahead. Keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Elli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 40. Before we dive into the episode, I wanna make sure you know, that you can submit a question for us to answer on the show, either answered by my guest or answered by me.

It's really exciting. We wanna hear directly from you here, the challenges that you're struggling with and the questions that you have when it comes to navigating the pain and the problems from your parents' divorce separation are broken marriage. And some of the benefits you can ask, anything that you want.

Like maybe you. Stuck in life right now. And you're not sure how to get unstuck and how to heal and, and move on with your life. Or maybe you're someone who loves or leads someone who comes from a broken family. And you're not sure, like how do you go about helping them? Whatever your question. We're gonna give you specific and practical answers right here on the show.

So if you wanna submit a question to us, just go to restored ministry. Dot com slash ask Joey again, restored ministry ministry, singular.com/ask Joey, just one word on that page. Just fill out the form, submit your question. And then as we're able, we'll answer your question on the show. Feel free to even pause this episode right now.

Go ask your question and then come back to finish the. Super thrilled that it have Justin bat on the show. Justin's an incredible man found out about him recently in his nonprofit daddy Saturday, which I'm gonna tell you about in a second, but Justin aims to disrupt fatherhood with intentionality by creating intentional fathers who raise good kids who become.

Great adults. And like I mentioned, he founded daddy Saturday in his own backyard with his four children. And it's grown into this national movement, engaging fathers across multiple channels, including YouTube, social media, the daddy Saturday book, uh, and Alexa skill, a podcast merchandise live events and a 5 0 1 C3 foundation through which Justin plans to impact 10 million fathers in the next.

10 years. It was incredible. In addition, Justin is a highly sought after healthcare consultant and a successful serial entrepreneur, as well as a TEDx and international public speaker, a multi published author and a regular guest on multiple. Podcast. And when he is not at work, Justin can be found helping his wife, Heather run her bridal enterprise and spending time with his four children and the family's bead doodle named weekend.

Super thrilled to have Justin on the show. Let's not wait any longer. Here's my interview with

Justin. Thanks so much for being here. A huge fan of your work. Hey, Joey. So good to be on with you as well. Thank you for having. Absolutely. You talk a lot about the crisis of fatherlessness that we're facing in our world, if you would, what do you mean by that? And how serious is this crisis? Well, when you look at most of the, we call 'em societal ills.

So most of the, the negative consequences that are impacting our society today, not just in America, but around the world, think of things like suicide, depression, anxiety, even some of the school shootings, teenage pregnancy. Divorced down the road. A lot of these issues that we have in our world are caused by fatherlessness.

When you think about human trafficking, which is a, an epidemic in and of itself today, I talked to a major leader in the space and I said, how many of the kids that you've rescued? The thousands of kids didn't have a father in the home. And he said a hundred percent. So even things like human trafficking are part of this and the fatherlessness epidemic.

Is because of two areas. One is the lack of a biological father living in the home. There's over 24 million kids in America today. They don't have a biological father living in the home and there's millions more that have a dad who's in the home, but he's physically present and emotionally absent.

That's another form of fatherlessness. And so through our organization, daddy, Saturday, we work to address both sides of that fatherlessness. And really help the dads who are in the home, be intentional and engaged, and also support those kids that don't have a father or father figure in their lives.

Incredible. This is such a massive pro uh, problem and project that you're taking on. So I'm, I'm really grateful for the work that you do. Um, let's get into this solution a little bit more to this big problem. What is this solution? And I know your work daddy Saturday is, is a big part of that solution. So tell us if you would a little bit about.

Well, I think you gotta look at both sides of that fatherless in his coin. And if you look at the fathers who are in the home, a big part of that is, you know, as dads, I've got four kids, I've been a dad now for 13 years. And when we had our first daughter, I didn't know anything about fatherhood. I learned fatherhood from my father and he wasn't a perfect dad.

I took the example that he had said and tried to apply some of those things and do a few things better in my own life. And I read some books and, you know, watched some YouTube videos. And that was my role of trying to figure out. What fatherhood was about. I'm also, I'm, I'm a man of faith. I'm a Christian.

So I, I went to the Bible and looked for some examples there. And, you know, there's just not a lot of fatherhood, frankly. That's out there. And most of the stuff was also from PhDs and was on the, the topic of more theology or theory around fatherhood. There wasn't a lot of practical advice on being a dad.

And so I figured it out like most dads do and stumbled process that first claims wanna be a good dad. They wanna be engaged. but they have a challenge. And that challenge is the fact that once they start to, to get into it and they have a few issues or stumbling blocks, then they kind of just go dark and they say, I, I don't know what I'm doing.

I don't know how to figure this thing out. I'm, I'm insecure. I'm feeling inadequate, I'm ill equipped. And so they start to shut down as a dad. And I think that the role and the goal of solving that is by helping fathers, reengage and reign. Their their role in their calling to be an intentional and engaged dad.

And that we're intentionality is really the core of our platform and how we help those dads, how I've helped myself, uh, engage my kids, creating epic moments and epic memories and building a legacy and helping them identify their calling. So they become good kids that become great adults. That's one side of that.

The other side is the child who doesn't have a father or father figure in their. And to address that issue. We need to equip them with education and help them understand and, and gain knowledge and access to knowledge that a father, father figure would provide for them. We also need to allow them to bump up against and aside really strong and great men who can show them what, what true masculinity is and what the role of a father.

That can be through coaches and mentors, teachers, church leaders, et cetera. So there's lots of ways to do that, but those are the two forms of fatherlessness. Two summaries of how we address both of those. So good. And in my own life, just having struggles in my own family, you know, in my relationship with my dad, the breakdown of my parents' marriage and all of that, I have to say, like you mentioned mentors, that's been so healing and so helpful for me in becoming, uh, the man that I wanna be the man that God wants me to be.

And so I, I love that you're approaching it like that. And you're, you know, not just giving a generic solution, you're really looking at the problem, understanding it and going after it, I wanna shift gears a little bit and speak to all the, the new fathers listening and the future fathers, all those men out there.

What are some practical things dads can do? Uh, even right now, for those of us who, who are dads to, to fill their kids' needs. Great question. And I'll tell you, it's really interesting. I've got, we live south of Nashville, Tennessee, and I have a lot of young men in their late twenties, early thirties. Most of them are not even fathers yet or even married yet.

And they're kind of coming around me because they, they want to learn. They have this earnest desire to be a good father, be a great father and, and they wanna start to equip themselves even well before they're ready for. And I love seeing that. I just, I'm still young enough that I'm relevant and they can see maybe a vision of what they, they want in the future.

You know, I'm not perfect. It looks something like what we have to my wife and I, and our four kids, but I'm not old enough that I'm still not relevant in space. So sure. This question is really, really top of mind for me right now, because I have all these young men around me and they're craving for that knowledge and craving for that advice.

So what I would tell any young man or young father. there's a couple of key principles. The first one is to recognize that not your job to be your kid's hero. I think that's really important to understand you need to be your kid's guide, because if you're your kid's hero, then what happens is you take the role of them achieving success or failure in their own life.

Oftentimes that's preventing them from experiencing failure, which they need to have at a young age when it's inconsequential. Right. Failure at, at 2, 3, 4, even eight years old is way different than failure at 22 32 42. Absolutely. And so if you experience failure in your youth, then you understand that process and, and have the mechanisms for dealing with failure for failing forward.

And understanding failure can be a superpower if done, if done. Right. And well, and so when you also serve as a guide, and this is really key for young men and young fathers is you allow other guides to come into your kids' lives and come into your life to serve where you don't have areas of expertise.

So that may be in the form of another man. Who's older than you, who you see someone that's in the, the church community or business community. What have you. That is a, is an example of the type of father you want to be. Maybe if you didn't have that kind of dad finding someone else who can mentor you as a father and give you a peek behind the door, around the corner for what that's gonna look like and what you need to know, that's what our platform tries to do.

So that's one thing I think the other thing is if your kids get a little bit older, it allows you to bring those guides into your kids' life and serve your kids by giving them experiences or skill sets that you can't give them for. I am not handy at all. Like I'm no chip gain I didn't grow up around cars and automobiles.

And so my kids want to build an obstacle course for daddy Saturday. Like I'm not the guy for the job, but I have lots of friends that are, and other dads that are, and so they can help come in and teach my kids skills like carpentry or working on an automobile or even, um, hunting and fishing in certain capacities that I don't have experience around.

My kids have had some of the coolest, most amazing experiences. Because I've let my ego go. I've served as a guide and allow other guides to come into my kids' lives. And that has served both myself and my kids extremely well. I'd also say that when you do that, it gives you a chance to zoom out and have a different perspective on your kids and, and your relationship because you get to just watch your kids and observe, and you'll learn far more about your kids when you're, when you're kind of.

The scenario without perspective then being in it. And as dads, we have a tendency to be in it all the time, doing it, solving it, fixing. and when you zoom out, it gives you a chance to really look at your kids' personality, understand who they are and what they're called to be so good. And I think that takes a lot of pressure off fathers as well.

I'm a, a new dad right now. My wife and I are expecting a baby in about two months here. And we're, we're so excited a little girl on the way. And so I have to admit this interview's a little bit selfish. I wanted to. Learn from you and, and hear, yeah, just the practical things that you would say to, to really start living this out.

Cause I wanna do it right. I wanna do what you said. Um, so I identify a lot with those men, those young men who are coming around you and, and looking for guidance. And so, uh, but yeah, I think, I think it takes pressure off cuz I think dads, uh, and moms, but especially dads, I think we have this expectation and maybe it's our pride that tells us we have to.

Know everything and have everything together. And we have to be the sole source. Like you said, the KIRO, the one who, who rescues the day all the time. Yeah. And, and that's, you know, it's a, it's a myth. We tell ourselves, it's the story we tell ourselves in, in our heads is dads and his men. And you know what?

So my last name is bat. I grew up as a fan of Batman. All my, I have three boys as well as our daughter and Batman is like a concert around our house. So I'm always like, who's my superhero, right? It's Batman, of course, by default, there's some other cool superheroes and great superpowers as well. But I always go back to Batman.

It's kinda like the quote and life always be yourself, unless you can be Batman, always be Batman we live by that in our household. But at the same time, um, I uncovered my superpower and it, it surprised me greatly. And I think it'll probably surprise you as well. My superpower is. I think for any dad, that's what I want you to hear.

New dad, old dad, doesn't matter. Season dad, I should call an old dad a season. Dad sacrifices your superpower. And here's why because I've spent over 14,000 hours engaging my kids combined Saturdays over the last 13 years. I've spent over 500 Saturdays with my kid and plus substantial investment. I don't have a golf game.

I've given them a lot of friendships and relationships. I quit drinking four years ago. Cause alcohol wasn't helping me do my best on those Saturdays. And, and other times with my kid, I. Have given up a lot of hobbies. I don't do long distance athletic events anymore because the training regimen is too much and it pulls me away from my family.

So there are things like that, that I've made huge sacrifices in over time, but those sacrifices are investments in my children investments in my marriage investments, in our legacy together. And I know looking back, it's going be, you know, exponential in terms of the growth and the relationship that we have long term, and it's a big journey.

So my encouragement would be. Really understanding that, you know, what is your superpower as a dad? Your superpower is sacrifice. And sometimes that sacrifice comes in the form will also be quick to say, you're sorry. Been quick to apologize, know you're wrong and to move forward, cuz we're all gonna make mistakes.

There is no perfect dad. Um, you will, you will make. Mistakes you will fall short. Um, it is inevitable. I do it daily and I'm in the space trying to be really great at it and great at it for other people. And I still fall short all the time. Yeah, no, it's so good. And the, the humility factor that, that you mentioned, I think is so important for all of us to hear because man, our egos can be the enemy.

And so I, I love what you said and I also love Batman. my favorite movie. No, no kidding. Uh, is Batman begins. There's just so much in that movie that I resonate with. And so I. I love what you mentioned. Uh, I wanna get a little bit personal here. You, you mentioned that you make mistakes, you've messed up and, and I think that's, uh, really helpful to hear because it, we can learn so much from you.

And so I'm curious, like through those failures, what, what are a couple things that you've learned along the way that, that we can learn from, from you? Well, I think it's really important to understand who you are first as an individual, as, as a person, understand what your trigger points are. Underst. Your personality style.

Are you an Exploder? Are you an imploder right? Are you aggressive? Are you passive aggressive? How do you handle those relationships? What are your fear? Buttons? There's a great book by Gary Smalley called the DNA of relationships. And my two fear buttons were fear of, of controls. Other people controlling me.

The other one was, uh, fear of being invalidated and, oh my goodness. Talk about two fear buttons that kids can step on all the time. There's many times where I feel like things are out of control or I'm losing control, especially with four kids and then being invalidated. Oh my goodness. Right? You're in the middle of a store and your child starts to have a meltdown or starts to behave in a way that is so unbecoming of who you know, that they are or what you would want them to do, or you know what our, our rules are as a.

and like, talk about being invalidated, right? It's like you wanna have one of those Walmart moments on your kids. Mm-hmm . And so how do you understand that process of who you are and what your fear buttons are and what your insecurities are? Because listen, your kids are gonna bring out every single one of those.

They're gonna invalidate you constantly. You're gonna feel like you have many points along the journey, the most selfish, ungrateful people in your life. And I have incredible kids. I mean, they're amazing. but oftentimes other people get their best and we tend to get their worst. So as parents, and that's the way for a lot of parents.

And so just understanding that and what those trigger points are. So that like for me, I go 110 miles an hour. I'm very, very passionate. So my volume can get loud quickly. There are many points where I've had a temper and I've lost my temper at times with my kids. And it is horrible. I hate. and, you know, looking back, those are such moments of regrets in my life as a parent.

And there's still points where I mess up, but I've got the awareness. Now I've got the triggers that I know are gonna happen. And so I can maintain the relationship first, instead of focusing on the result that I maybe want to have happen. And that alone is so important because at the end of the day, when you look at the long tail of father, Your kids, you want them to come around and be around you when they have the option to, and the only way that's gonna happen.

And especially as a new dad to be thinking that long term, it's really important because the way you do that is by relationship. And if you build a relationship, right, and that includes making mistakes and saying, you're sorry, and showing them how to apologize. Then you'll have that long term relationship.

So good. And that goes back to your tagline, which is, you know, raising good kids who become great adults. Like you're not just in it to be your kid's best friend, but you're really thinking long term, which I love just for, for any man out there right now. Who, who comes from a broken home, especially who didn't see what it was like to, to be a good dad.

What encouragement would you give to him? Especially if he just doesn't feel like he has what it takes to be that great father you're talking. Well, what I would say is you have what it takes. You just don't know what it takes. Cause you didn't have that model for you. And that's not your fault. So I would say, I'm sorry, I'm sorry that you didn't have a dad in your life that showed you that.

And, and I, I feel for you and that is a horrible, horrible thing. Um, you may be a, a kid who, or a child who had a, a dad that was in their life, but maybe didn't model things very well and raised you in a way. There was some, some damage done, right? We almost all have a father wound, whether that was abandonment or performance based fathers or authoritarian fathers.

There's a lot of, of ways that we were all raised and issues that we have and wounds that we have your job is to learn what that wound is. It's to achieve healing and offer forgiveness for your father, whether you've met him or he is there or not. And then it's to look at your own relationship with your kids and realize that you don't have to pass that down to your own kid.

That bitter. Is cut out and ends with you. You have the option to choose the father. You want to be to your kids, whether you had a dad or a good dad or not, that's irrelevant. And so you have the power to choose the relationship, the legacy, the memories that you wanna have with your own children. And then it's your role then to take fatherhood seriously and to go out and learn.

Cuz none of us know, we all have that wound. And so what resources are you gonna take advantage of what people you're gonna surround yourself? And how are you going to treat fatherhood as if it's your life's work and you're gonna work at it with everything you have to be the best father you could possibly be.

Love it. Yeah. And that goes back to what you said before. Just this mentality that you can't do it alone, which I greatly appreciate. And again, takes a lot of pressure off knowing that you can lean on other people let's shift over to, uh, to young people who don't have father. how can they, uh, again, these young people who maybe like you said, they didn't have a FA father physically present, or maybe their dad was there, but he was emotionally checked out.

How can they compensate for those needs that dad never filled? And I'm sure this is gonna echo some of the advice you've already given, but I'm curious specifically here, how could they compensate to fill those needs? Well, , you know, that's a really big question. That's the role of the father is to provide so many of those, those values and examples.

And to, to teach, we, we have a principal on daddy Saturday that that says far more is caught than taught. And so, so much of that is just by being around a father, father figure. I have a, a gentleman that I know who's in his sixties and he went to the foster system and was an orphan. It didn't have a dad in his life.

He told me this story that blew my mind. He said he finally was adopted by this, or was in a foster family. And the dad came home for dinner every night. The dad brought his paycheck home and spent his money on his family. And, and he would sit at dinner and he'd have a couple conversations. And the dad came home every single night and he never had that in his whole life.

Those simple things of having a dad come home every night and be there for dinner and spend his money on his family to provide for. Was earth shattering for him. And so I want you just to have perspective, right? That, that no matter what your situation is, you can rise above it and rise out of it. I think that there are going to be deficiencies or areas of, of weakness, or just areas where you have insecurity or have lack of knowledge as a father.

That's going to be natural depending on your situation. It could be greater than others. But what I would challenge everyone with is to say, you've got the ability. To learn and to grow and to rise above all those circumstances. Now how you do that is up to you. But I think that as long as you're motivated to move down that path towards learning and growing and not letting it be a stumbling block, or even an excuse, frankly, or to play the victim mentality, cause it's not gonna get you anywhere.

And that may sound like it's harsh. Um, but at the end of the. You are responsible for your role to your own children as the type of father you want to be. And yes, your father may have had an impact on you and his abandonment or lack of being there may have had a huge impact on you, but there are so many people and resources, and we're creating some resources guys that are gonna blow your mind.

That'll help with this exact same thing that are coming out. They're just not out yet. But, um, I can speak to that and say, there is content. There is, there are books. There are videos there. All sorts of different opportunities to help you grow beyond what you were lacking from your own father. Love it.

Thank you for that. And please tell us a little bit about what are you offering at daddy Saturday, both for dads, and then also for, uh, young people who don't have a dad. So daddy, saturday.com is the hub for everything. It's it's the website. I think we've got a couple of opportunities there that I'll, I'll mention quickly.

So one. For dads who just want information. We're starting a couple of new platforms called the two minute drill. We've got our data Saturday playbook. These are all about ideas. If you can quickly implement easily with your kids to create epic memories together, that's how you be intentional, how you engage 'em um, you can find the book there.

The book is our, our playbook for fatherhood being intentional, super practical. And then we're launching a, a mobile application. The mobile app is gonna house our curriculum called dad boss. Which is all around how you grow as a father and level up and faith, family fitness and finances, and then also develop friendships.

And none of those friendships there'll be virtual communities. You can join based areas of interest like new dads or divorce dads, or girl dads, whatever that is. Um, we're also starting our local community coaches. So you can step up and say, I wanna be a daddy Saturday coach in my local. That will allow you to then be that leader and step up and have other dads join you in community and do amazing epic activities with your kids, as well as their kids and your local community.

So those are some resources for dads, uh, for kids. Oh my gosh. I'm so excited. So, uh, we both know of, or no, Donald Miller story brand business made simple. Um, I just got certified as a business made simple. Awesome. I'm launching a program called kid boss and kid boss is gonna provide life changing business education for every child, which I believe they should have access to.

And it is going to help them become an entrepreneur, start their own business, learn how to do that and do it well and essentially own their future. And so we'll have that opportunity. We'll, we'll teach dads how to help your kids do that. And then we've got a program directly for kids and it's all.

Business made simple story brand hero on a mission, which are, are Donald Miller's, uh, just amazing curriculums. Love it. So good. Congrats on that. I, I didn't know you were a coach and that's, that's amazing. And I look forward to seeing what you produce and, uh, promoting it to, to our audience and really grateful for you for your time.

If people wanna follow you on social and other places, what's the best way to do that. Yeah. So follow me personally, add Justin bat on LinkedIn. That's where you can connect with me. Also, uh, daddy.com, as I mentioned is our hub. And then please also visit all of our social across Facebook, Instagram. We're at daddy Saturday at D daddy Saturday.

You'll see the DS logo and you can't mess this. Awesome. Justin, I wanna give you the last word here. Uh, like you touched on a little bit before, uh, one of the huge fears that those of us who come from broken homes have, is repeating the dysfunction that we experience. We, we don't want that. We're afraid of it, but statistically, we often fall into that.

Like we end up getting divorced. We end up creating the same dysfunction that we experience in our own families. And so. What would you say to someone who just feels very broken right now, a young person? Uh, what encouragement would you give them to just get unstuck in life to start thriving, to just build a better life than they had in the future or in the past?

I'm sorry. Well, I would say this there's this there's this scientific process called epigenetics. And it's the fact that far more was passed on than just your DNA. It was the environment, the experiences of your parents, even your grandparents, and it's all passed. And so you've got that inside of you.

Think of it like an iceberg. And most of us are only willing to look at the tip of the iceberg. And many, very few of us are willing to go down deep and really dig into that and pull that out on the surface and deal with it because the problem is if you don't deal with it, it's still there. Whether you wanna acknowledge it or not.

So my encouragement would be, we've all got that iceberg inside of us. Again, regardless of our circumstances, it's there. The father wound's going to be. So you have to pull it out. You have to deal with it. You have to look at what caused it, what you would do differently, how you would do that and start to analyze the process.

And when you pull it out, as painful as it can be the necessary process and outta that pain can come, purpose can come potential. And what I would say is that every single one of you listening as a potential dad as a current dad, um, future dad, whatever your circumstance. You have the potential to be an incredible dad to your kids.

It's inside of you again, regardless of your circumstances, it's just up to you pull it out, own it. And if we can be a small help in that process, we're glad to do it.

One big takeaway from me. You don't have to be perfect. I mentioned that a couple times in the show, cause I think it's so important to remember cuz I think dads and moms too, parents in general, feel this pressure to get it all right. To be perfect, to not mess up. And Justin's really giving us permission saying no, you're gonna mess up.

It's gonna happen. Be prepared for it. In fact, expect it. Just be ready to learn and. From your mistakes. And I think that's so, so helpful and it takes so much pressure off so that you can just focus on becoming a better, stronger parent, a better, stronger father than just maybe beating yourself up for failing in a way that you thought you were supposed to be perfect.

And I think there's a lot of. Pride there as well. When we feel that now we can't mess up. We have to be perfect. We have to be that superhero for our kids and never make any mistakes. And so it's refreshing to hear like, no, you don't need to be perfect. And in order to become better though, uh, we need to rely on other people, like Justin said, like, like we need to check our egos.

We need to rely on other people. Not think that we can do it all alone. And make use of the resources like Justin's nonprofit and the things that he mentioned, the book and his podcasts, and just make use of those resources so that we can become the father that we wish we had. And so one question for you to kind of chew on is what did you learn about fatherhood from your own dad?

And maybe you had a great father and you learned a lot of great things from your dad, but maybe you didn't and you learned a lot of unhealthy things. Maybe you learned lies about fatherhood and even. Masculinity. And so give that some thought, like, what did you learn from your dad when it comes to fatherhood?

And if you wanna, you can write those out. You can put 'em into words, you can talk to someone about it, but definitely give this some thought, think about it. I think this is an important step and becoming, uh, the father that you wish you had. And so give this some thought, give this some. If you want more from Justin, I invite you to buy his book.

Daddy's Saturday. Uh, you can click on the link in the show notes to buy the book or just buy it from wherever you buy books. Like Amazon, the resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 45. Thank you guys so much for listening. We do this for you, and if it's been useful, I invite you to subscribe and to.

This podcast and always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#044: Practical Tips for Becoming a Great Parent | Mike & Alicia Hernon

For most people, becoming a parent is beautiful but also scary and intimidating. But that is especially true for people from broken families. Often, we didn’t see a great example of parenthood, so we feel lost and unsure how to do it ourselves.

In this episode, we talk parenting with Mike and Alicia Hernon, the parents of 10 kids and leaders of a ministry for parents called The Messy Family Project. We discuss:

• How his parents’ divorce affected Mike as a husband and father

• Fears he had about becoming a father, how he overcame them, and how you can too

• Should you put your marriage first or your children first and why is that important?

• Lots of practical parenting tips, especially for new parents

• Encouragement if you feel like you don’t have what it takes to be a good parent because you never experienced it in your family 

Listen to The Messy Family Podcast

Links & Resources

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• The Messy Family Project

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• Adam Young Podcast

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As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

For most people becoming a parent is a really beautiful thing, but it's also scary. It's also intimidating and that's especially true for those of us who come from broken families. So often we didn't see a great example from maybe one or both parents of what it looks like. To be a great parent. So when it's our turn, we feel a bit lost.

Like we don't know how to do it. We don't know how to be a great parent. And we lack the confidence that we need to be a great parent. And so today we talk parenting with a married couple who has 10 kids. You heard that, right? They have 10 children. They also run a non-profit for parents called the messy family project.

The husband Mike, he comes from a broken home. And so he shares his story and how alcoholism really played a big role in the breakdown of his family's parents' marriage, which so many of us deal with and where you're gonna get out of this episode, by listening to it, you're gonna hear us discuss how his parents divorce affected him as a father and a husband.

He shares some of the fears that he had as a father and how he overcame them. Lots of good lessons that we can take and use. We discussed the question. Should you put your marriage. Or should you put your kids first? And we talk about why that's a super important question to ask and my guests get pretty vulnerable and they share how they've failed as parents and what they've learned because of it.

So we can learn from them and avoid making those mistakes in the first place. They also give a lot of great practical tips on parenting, especially for new parents out there. And finally, anyone out there who feels like they don't have what it takes to, to be a great parent, because maybe you didn't see that growing up.

They give a lot of encouragement and some advice on how to deal with that and how to overcome then how to be a great parent, very refreshing conversation, full of hope, lot a practical advice. And even if you're not a parent now, but you hope to be one day, you're gonna get a lot out of the episode. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation of broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 44 and today I speak with Mike and Alicia Hernan. They're the proud parents of 10 children ranging from eight to 25 years old.

They also lead the messy family project, a ministry seeking to encourage and empower parents in building vibrant families. Their podcast has grown to over 10,000 families listening every month. It's probably even more than that at this point. And they've been guests on shows such as the Catholic TV network EWTN.

Mike's actually hosted shows on EEW, TN, and he's appeared on Fox news, CNN and NPR, their children. They. Are the greatest joy in life. And as a family, they love to play music theater, playing board games and watching the Philadelphia Eagles, which my wife will be happy about. Cuz she is a Philly girl. She loves the Eagles and Mike and Alicia say that their home is always loud.

It's active and it's busy. And on a person I have to say they, they have a really beautiful family. I've been to their home. I met Alicia years ago after college, I went to Italy to teach English for two months. I lived over there for two months in Italy, just awesome experience. But in order to get that job, I had to submit a video of me teaching kids in English lesson.

And so Mike and Alicia were super generous and allowing me to work with their kids, uh, to make that video, uh, it was successful. I did get the job and it was just an awesome experience. So I have interacted with, with Mike Alicia and their kids and I just have. Beautiful family. They're everything that you would want them to be.

And they've built a really beautiful family, a really beautiful marriage. And so I'm excited for you to learn from them about parenting. You'll hear in the show also that Bridget and I, my wife are expecting a baby girl. So this is actually our second pregnancy. Our first pregnancy, we, we had a miscarriage was really difficult thing to go through, but now, uh, we've had a successful pregnancy.

Everything's looking good so far. So in two months, our baby girl will arrive. We cannot wait to meet her. I can't wait to meet her. Uh, it is super exciting. It's beautiful, but it's also kind of intimidating. This is a new chapter for us is gonna bring new challenges, but also, uh, you know, new joy, new meaning into our lives.

So please, uh, keep us in your prayers and I'm super excited to learn from this conversation with you because I'm a new dad. And so here's my conversation with Mike and Alicia,

Mike and Alicia. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Uh, it is great to be with you, Joey. Thanks for inviting us. Yeah. Thanks for having us, Mike. I, I didn't know that you were a child of divorce. I had, I knew about you cuz I went to Franciscan and uh, we have mutual friends, but I didn't know that you came from a broken home and apparently we both spoke at, uh, the same event recently.

And so I wanna. Start there. Uh, Mike, I'd love for, if you could just give us a summary of your story. I'm sure we could do a whole podcast episode on, on your story, but yeah. Give us a little bit of a background. Sure. Um, so I, I was raised in, um, in New York and I came from a, um, you know, my, my father was an, um, alcoholic, a recovering alcoholic and my parents got divorced, separated first.

And then, uh, ultimately got divorced, uh, in my early teen years. Uh, right. As I was getting into high school, I was thinking, gonna say New York, Irish Catholic alcoholic. Right. How many? That's just like every, so many people's story. Right. And, and I, for me, it was, um, you know, it was, it was a, a lull, uh, after my parents' divorce.

Yeah. Uh, there was some quiet in the home, but there was a lot of carnage, you know, I was always looking for, uh, peace. I think I was looking for some kind of escape and, and, uh, I actually started down the same path as my dad, uh, and early teen, I began drinking, but it wasn't until I, uh, kind of played my life forward for whatever reason, as a, as a teenager and saw I was heading down a path of destruction, it was grace and it was, yeah.

And I, I have to say, I think it was my mom's prayers, uh, that, that kind of shook me, uh, and woke me up to the fact that I was a mess and my life was a mess and through counseling, through prayer and, uh, just some good, good friends, uh, was able to really, you know, deal with that over, over the next number of years.

But for me, it was, it was a moment where I remember looking back and saying, this isn't what marriage is about. And this isn't what family life is about. Yeah. And I, I was looking from a very early teen years saying, um, what, what is marriage? What is family? And looking for models because I was, uh, You know, I, I, I, I knew what I had.

Wasn't the, the model, the perfect model. And I wanted something better. Mm-hmm so, anyway, I, I, I could go on, we actually did it recently, just did a whole podcast, um, on this, but I, I, um, I look back at that moment of my parents' divorce and although it had so much loss and so much pain and so much wounds that came from it, um, it also was a pivotal moment where I think we're doing.

Uh, you know, with our, our marriage and family, uh, effort that we're doing right now, the organization that we're leading I think was really birthed through that. And so out of my struggle and out of our, my woundedness, uh, it has, has changed and affected me as a husband and as a father, and has really brought me to a place where my faith is, is alive and real for me, because I, I needed something beyond my own ability to fix if you will.

And even though obviously this is Mike's story, not my story, but in walking with him these past 30 years, 30 plus years, you know, through the divorce, cuz he, his parents were divorced when he was 16. And then we met when he was 18. I think it's just important to note that there's several moments of conversion, you know, it's not like, oh, you know, in Mike's whole story, it's like the divorce was a pivotal moment.

And then there. Other pivotal moments after that, where God continued that process of healing and conversion, you know, it's not like we're not healed all at once. It's. You know, God gives us what we can handle at that time. And that's part of the beauty of walk, you know, the journey, the journey. It's not just like, oh great.

Now everything's perfect. I've arrived. You know, I thought it was a one and done thing. I didn't, would it be nice? It was like that, but sorry. No, absolutely. That, that was one of the unique things about this trauma is that it's like, in a way it's like an unending trauma, because most of the time our families don't come back together.

So it's so challenging, but Mike, I relate so much to what you said about just wanting the opposite of what you saw in your family. And I think that's so true for so many people listening right now. Like we desire something better. We don't want to go down the same path that our, our parents went down. We don't wanna repeat the mistakes that we saw in our family dis dysfunction there.

And so it's beautiful to see, like, you guys are so inspiring to see the beautiful family in the marriage that you've built and I'm sure. Yeah. It's been a journey and it's been I'm sure struggles along the way, but I'm curious. Mike specifically looking at you as a husband and a father. Uh, how have you seen your parents divorce affect you in those roles?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the reality is, is that there are probably still ways that I'm still uncovering and I think it's true. It's true for me. And it probably is true for others that I, I, I played forward. Right. You know, I, as a single man looking forward, I wasn't sure I could get married. I wasn't sure if I'd be a good dad, there was fears, there was apprehensions and, you know, counseling really played a role as well as for me a, um, really a spiritual father, uh, that, that stepped in, uh, to really walk me through that if you will, so that I could have a deeper level of confidence entering into marriage and in parent.

But ultimately I would say that it, it, it, the, the fears of am I gonna repeat the same mistakes, uh, of my parents, am I gonna have? And I did have anger issues, you know, and, and, and, uh, things that I had to work through as I became a dad, it was, it is almost as if you can only do so much looking at it, uh, from a distance.

And the real transformation in my life happened in the midst of being a husband and a father. Um, as opposed to, although I did have real fears and kind of concerns coming into this, I was so attracted to my wife. I, I abandoned all fear and abandoned, then no reason and jump in. And, and really that, that saved me, you know, because I, I, again, as, as a, as somebody who, you know, believes in, in God as father, um, I realized that I had a major impediment.

In relating to God as father, because of my own earthly father and wrestling with that, understanding that and getting to a place where I needed to be healed first as a son, before I could become a spouse. And then a father, if that makes sense to you, like my identity needed to be confirmed and affirmed that I was somebody's beloved son.

And as, uh, there's a moment. And, um, my, my eldest daughter, I, I have this moment where. I remember sitting there and I was, was holding this infant who did nothing for me, uh, who all that, that we, we fed her, we clothed her, we woke up with her in the middle of the night. And then as a thanks, she would throw up on us.

She would fill up her diaper, you know, this is, but, but I couldn't, I couldn't just understand how I could love her this much, you know, be it was almost overwhelming. And then I get to a place as I'm I'm sitting there and I hear this whisper of God to me. And now you have a glimpse of how much I love you.

Yeah. And for me it was, it was a, a pivotal moment. Again, I know everyone comes at a different standpoint, but if it was in that gift of me being a father of me, understanding. That I began to even receive love and to be healed and affirmed as a son. Um, and that was really a, a, a pivotal moment, you know, kind of as least Alicia was alluding to, but, you know, that was in the end of the journey.

And there was still lots of things to unpack because I, um, as I, I, I mentioned before, you know, I, I have lots of learned behavior. I have lots of wounds, but also learned behavior, uh, growing up that, of how to deal with what does discipline look like, or how does, you know, anger, uh, play into our lives? You know, and those, those things come out.

you know, all the junk of our past for sure comes out and. I needed to, to keep as a, an adult, uh, to recognize that the, the more that I was able to deal with, my divorce, the divorce that, uh, from my family, um, the, the, the loss that I had of a love of a mom and a dad of the formation, because there were both dealing with their own stuff.

Yeah. I needed to really process that so that I could be a better spouse and a better husband. I dunno if that, that makes sense, but it's just like, uh, there, there's such, there's such a, um, a pull for me to just dive in and feel like I, I should have known, uh, what it was, what it meant to be a father, but because of the divorce, it actually put me in a very humble place where I said, I have, I have no reference point.

And so I was really hungry looking for answers, but realizing I still don't have, uh, all that I need in some ways, but it, it, it kind of gave me the, uh, freedom. To say, okay, let's go find other mentors. Let's find others. And also required me in, in many ways to deal with the garbage that I had been given the, the, the feeling of being broken and having the humility and really the, uh, I guess looking back on it, the courage to admit I was weak, I was wounded and I needed help.

That was a, a big deal because that's not typical for men to want to admit that so that was, that was huge. Absolutely. And yeah, I can relate to so much of that. And you mentioned that, uh, yeah, just having a mentor, an older man who kind of could walk alongside you was so helpful. It was the same for me. Uh, it was actually a spiritual director that I had, uh, there at Franciscan and he was more than a spiritual director.

He was like I mentioned, uh, really just a mentor, able to help me guide me in different areas of life and just his affirmation, uh, of me as a man was just so, so helpful and so healing and yeah. So I, I can totally relate with that. And I think, uh, other people. Who who've walked that path too. They they've found it to be extremely helpful.

You mentioned fears that, that you experienced and you alluded to some of them. Uh, I'm curious, what, what were some of those fears about fatherhood specifically and what was most helpful to overcome those fears? I had to get to a play. Well, I'll do it by way of, I, I thought I was gonna follow in the same footsteps.

Like I felt so under the influence of my father, that I knew when I was a child, as an adult entering into marriage, you know, that, um, I thought I was crippled and I was, I was gonna be set off. And I had really very little, very minimal boundaries between my dad and me in healthy, uh, healthy relationship.

Right. So some word from him could set me off or this, or. and I had a, I had a spiritual, uh, so I'm, I'm not really answering your question, but I'm gonna tell you something but, but I had a, uh, you know, a, a, a, uh, uh, somebody, uh, spiritual father to me say, you really need to work. The, the only path through this is, is forgiveness, but not just a trite, not just a, oh, I forgive you.

It's okay. Move on. It was a know how you were wounded, know how you were hurt, know what, what, uh, was lost and, uh, and really itemize it if you will. Yeah. So as to then say, I forgive you for all of this, uh, and that. That was hard. That was painful. It was a long process if you will, with, with some counseling, uh, involve, this was before we were married.

Yeah. Before, when we were dating. Yeah. And being able to sit down and actually, and again, I don't recommend this for everybody, but I sat down with my dad and went through that. And although through AA, he has, you know, he has, he had, had kind of tried to make, uh, rested, amends and so forth. I don't think he understood from my perspective what had happened.

Um, and by saying that to him, it, it, it changed our relationship dramatically, but I, I ended it with, and, and I forgive you. And there was a release there that, that I felt like I was up until that moment. I was somewhat trapped under his. and, and it wasn't hit by his design, but it, but it was under the, kind of this, this old pattern, this old way of relating this old way of being a man.

I kind of made a, at that moment, made a break and said, you no longer have power over me. And I, I think it's important too, to note that he, when Mike had that conversation with his dad, he wasn't having that conversation to get something from his dad. Right. He didn't need his father to say I'm sorry, or anything, because he had already forgiven him.

He was ready, ready to rare. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, so that conversation was kind of like the, the ending or the culmination. It was kind of like the outward result of something inward that had already happened. And I think that that's why it worked because if he was going there saying, I'm gonna tell you this, and I want you to say, I'm sorry, then you're then, then the father still has that power over him, you know?

Right, right. But he was like, I don't. , you know, I just want you to know, I forgive you I'm I'm and that then he was free. Right. And, and, and just because, um, if I was looking for some great response, right. I, I, I, I, I caught my dad way off guard. Yeah. And he was not, not only not expecting it, it, it, it really, I think shocked him, uh, you know, the, the kind of, some of the detail, but it.

It was important for me, cuz then I actually began a new relationship with my dad. Right. And again, but he's not a bad person. No. And we actually have a really decent relationship now, but it, but it, but again, not everybody's can follow that path and I don't necessarily recommend it, but it, it, it, it brought me new level of freedom.

So that the fear that I, so one of the big fears was, am I gonna let this pass through me? That was probably my greatest fear is that I was gonna let the poison of either alcohol or divorce go from my father, from my parents' marriage through, uh, me to my future bride and children and substantially at that date, I would say that that fear was resolved.

That was probably the biggest thing that was like I a dark cloud. If you will, from teenage years, all the way through thinking my life is heading towards a, a cliff on some level. And that fear was removed, but then there's the, you know, there's still the, I still don't know how to really give myself away to my bride.

I, I still don't know how to deal with my anger and that's something I, that, that, that was probably the, one of the other fears was that I was just not gonna be capable and able to be a dad. Cause I didn't know how to do it. And I didn't have a father that was present. Um, again, I look back on it now and I see much more, so many years later, I see many more bright spots than I probably was willing to appreciate back then, because I think this is for a lot of adult children sure of divorce is that we block out memories, you know, and we have patch.

I have a patchy memory of, of a lot of my childhood. And, um, that, that I think is indicative. At least the way I take it is that it's a self defense mechanism. You know, that there was some, uh, you know, the trauma of divorce, the trauma of the, the tension in the household before that. And I, from my perspective in getting married, like we talked about children and what we wanted out of our family, we talk a lot about those things before we got engaged, you know, and then during engagement.

And I always felt in some ways, and this is gonna sound a little crazy, but that the divorce, you know, was a hidden blessing in a way, because it made Mike so aware of what he didn't know, you know? And I think that I that's true, see some couples and they just kind of like skip into marriage, being like, oh, it'll all work out.

You know, it'll be fine. Mike never had that attitude. I, that was an illusion. I never had that illusion. He never had that illusion. That it's all gonna be fine. Cause he knew, you know what, sometimes it's not fine. You know? And so he was very, very intentional about, I want my family to be different. I want my family to be different than the way I was raised.

And I knew that. From the time we were dating, you know, which is one of the things that was very attractive to me in looking for someone I wanted to have a family with is that I knew, even though he came from this broken background, I knew that he was gonna be so intentional and passionate about being an amazing husband and father.

And I saw him taking steps to learn how to do that in the families that he was with and the spiritual direction that he was having and, you know, and all of those kinds of things. So in a way, it was like, Hey, God can bring good out of everything. You know, he really can. And I feel like that's what he did for us.

It's amazing. Yeah, there was no room for complacency. You had to make a choice one way or the other. And that's beautiful. There was something you mentioned that was really important. I wanna highlight for everyone listening and, and this is just a healing principle across the board, and that is, uh, naming how you've been harmed, identifying your wounds and just really understanding them as if they were a physical disease.

Like in order for a doctor to treat some illness first, they have to diagnose it. They have to understand it. And so one counselor that, that we love, uh, Adam Young, he has the podcast, the place we find ourselves awesome podcast. He says that when it comes to experiencing healing, naming how you've been harmed is about 70% of the battle.

And so I just love what you said there and, uh, just the role that forgiveness played in your story too. That's something we haven't talked about a, a ton on this show. It's so important. I've experienced that freedom that you're talking about. And it's hard to explain that to people who haven't experienced it.

It's like, yeah, forgiveness is really good. It's really powerful. Like it's really freeing, but until you actually go through that, it's really difficult to understand that that's just what we've seen in working with, with young people who come from broken homes. Yeah. It, it, it really, and I know I said this already, but it just, they know, by, through forgiveness the, my past and never had power over me again, you know, again, there were, there were still moments that it was repeating different things or whatever, but, but as a whole, it broke the past power, you know, the, the, the, the wounds of the past, having that power over me.

And I, I, again, not that I was perfect from that moment on, but it was such a moment of grace. And I mean that in the fullest sense of that word, you know, that there was just a gift, um, that I could see with new eyes. Um, and I, I, I really think everybody needs it. And I think as, as awful as divorces and as the pains and the loss, um, that, that come from divorce, we do, we are gifted.

We, we have a super, you know, it's kinda like the radioactive spider, that, that bit us, you know, we have a deeper, um, uh, appreciation and hopefully a humility that we've gotta work on this. And I don't think anybody. Perfectly equipped for marriage or, or parenting. Right. Um, but we as adult children, I think as a general rule know, we don't have it.

Don't have what it takes and we are gonna look for it and we're gonna be hungry for it. I think the biggest mistake anybody can make and, and us, uh, as adult children, as well of divorce is to say with false confidence, oh, I'll, I'll, I'll be fine. And I don't have to work on this, or I can ignore the past and, uh, and just move on with my life.

And then everything will be fine. Um, that as long as we don't take that perspective, I really believe that there is a power to our humility and knowing that we need help, we need work, uh, in our lives. Yeah. Uh, so good. It's so easy to be arrogant and just like completely miss, like, like you said, if you don't have humility, you won't even identify the problem in the first place and therefore you can't heal, you can't grow.

And, uh, when it comes to forgiveness, the point you made about like reconciling with your dad, that's so beautiful. You were able to do that. And I love that you distinguish that some people can, some people can't and kind of what we say is like, that's the ideal, like if you can reconcile with one or both of your parents, that's awesome.

But if there's a, an unhealthy dynamic, a toxic relationship there where it wouldn't be good for you to do that, you can still forgive at a distance. And I love that. Um, you highlighted that and I think it's really important. And going to what you said about. Blocking out memories. I have a friend who is a psychologist and she's, uh, a trauma therapist.

She specializes in trauma therapy. She's just about done with her PhD. And one of the things she taught me was that our brains literally have a mechanism. Like, like you said, that they block out memories that we're not equipped to like emotionally handle. And so until we're in a space and we have people in our lives who can help us so kinda work through those things, we literally will forget those things in a way, because our brain's trying to protect us.

Oh, I love how our whole body, our whole kind of ecosystem, our human, um, uh, system really works to protect us, to build us up. Like, cause I have just met many. We have met many couple. Who it's only when they're in the kind of safety of their marriage and that they feel loved and supported, and they ha that their issues start coming out.

And it, it is, it is some people were surprised by it. You know, like, why is this, why am I feeling this way now? And I'm like, cuz you couldn't have dealt with it before you weren't at a place where your life and your situation was able to. And I have found that, you know, even though it, it, it was a substantial movement, um, in that forgiveness, there have been those, you know, and then I've talked about the, my, my eldest daughter, but there are many moments of both bringing me, uh, to a very humble place.

But also just with the safety of, of knowing that my wife really means it when she says she loves me, you know, that, that they're, and that meaning that word, even the definition of what I thought loved was to what it really is when there's somebody who's willing to do anything for you, that's willing to be weak and strong for you in, in and give of themselves in a way that.

I'd never known that somebody could like me with all of the junk, with all of secrets revealed and the li you know, all that stuff that maybe we stuff down. And, and, and, but that's when there's true freedom, that's when there's true life, uh, when you're in that kind of a relationship and those, you know, and maybe not all memories will come back, but, but that, there is, I never thought about that before.

And for me now, again, we've, we've been married a while. I'm actually remembering more of the good things that I kind of blocked out to talking with your sister. Yeah. And talking with my, yeah. Talking with siblings about that in their own healing journey. That's the other thing I think that is really beautiful is that when you have siblings who you can journey with, you know, that path appealing, you can journey with them.

So Mike did the, um, the life giving wounds retreat with Dan Meola, um, just recently. And we had never, he had never really thought. What I think is interesting is that I had seen about this retreat. And I brought up to Mike and he was kind of like, eh, I don't know, you know, I've been through counseling, I've been there before.

Right. And I was like, well, you should, you know, check it out. Maybe one of your siblings would do it. And so he and his sister went through it together and, and it was so good because I think it opened up his eyes, Mike's eyes to the continual healing that God still wanted to do in him and what he wanted to teach him.

But then really so beautiful is that his sister who's so many years older than you, 10 years older than you or so, you know, they were able to connect on a new level as well, you know, as they both shared about their memories and things, which were different, know, it was actually surprise. It surprised me actually.

Uh, Joey, just even talking to my siblings, the. I don't remember, or she remembered differently, or I remember differently cause Mike is on the younger end and they're all older than him. And so it, it was, it was, it was very, very interesting to see and the relationship that she has versus the relation, you know what I mean?

Like all of those nuances, it helped paint a fuller picture. Right. And, uh, you know, there's, there's just a beauty about being able to see our lives and even the, the wounds of the past and see it from new perspective. And I don't think if I, if we didn't go on that experience, that retreat together, um, that we would've had the opportunity.

To share about it. And although we had kind of mentioned it before, we were kind of, we all knew that everybody's done their own little path, if you will. Right. But it was a perfect excuse. Yeah. And it actually brought us closer together through that as well. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Love that. Yeah. And I, I think it's so helpful to have like a space to work through those things too.

Uh, and that's where I think Dan's retreats are, are great because, you know, it's hard to listen to a podcast. We've even gotten this feedback on this podcast. It's like some of the things we talk about they're heavy and you, you kind of just need to take a step back from day to day life. And so I love that you were able to do that with your sister.

My brother and I actually were, were talking the other day. And we were talking about the fact that healing is not just like this checklist of things to do. It's, it's relational on so many levels and. There's so many voids that we have in our hearts that we need people to love and affirm us, like you mentioned before, Mike.

And so it's really important. And that reminds me of some research they did at Harvard on happiness, that the book, the happiness advantage, it kind of summarizes their findings. And what they found was really the happiest people were the ones who lived close to their family and they had healthy, intimate relationship with their parents and siblings.

Wow. I would love to see this study. that's so interesting. Yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah. Great book. So the happiness advantage is the book and, uh, it's probably could have been half the size, but you know, it's, it's like really, really great research and they found some awesome things and, and yeah, that's basically what they found is like the strength of your social connections.

Your family relationships in particular really are the determining factor of your level. That makes sense though, but beautiful. I love. I wanna, uh, shift gears a little bit and put you guys on the spot. So I hope you're okay with that. I'm just wondering yeah. Where yeah. OK. Yeah, no, I I've listened to your podcast and I love how vulnerable you guys are.

I think there's, yeah, it teaches so much. It's so helpful. Yeah. So I'm curious, where have you failed as parents and what have you learned from those failures? So we can learn from you and how much time do you have? No, , , let's see three hours. Exactly. Right. Um, how have I failed as parent? I think, you know what, the one thing that I actually was just thinking about recently is how important it is to put ourselves in our children's shoes.

You know? And, and I, I was actually thinking about like an experiment, like what if you had, and I, what, if you, what if you had a person sitting in a. And when they went over to this area of the room, they were just, you know, ignored, oh, you know, whatever good things happened. But then they went into this area of the room and all of a sudden, some people started yelling at them and they, they touched something.

And then you get like a little shock, you know, but then if you go over here and then, then you go over again, but nothing happens. Like sometimes we have to realize that's what it's like for our kids. Especially like toddlers, who the whole world is new to them. And how many times have I exploded at my children or, or expected them to know something that I never told them, you know, or like, and I've eaten.

My one, one of my kids is very verbal and very, um, outgoing. And if I like will yell at him or whatever, like he's turned around and said to me, mom, you just told me to do this. Or I wasn't doing what you think I was doing. I was actually doing this other thing and I've had to go, oh, sorry. You know, like I was assuming you were doing something wrong and he is like, mom, you're assuming I'm doing no, I'm not.

You know? And, and it's just because he's really verbal. How many. Would I say that to another child who's maybe more quiet. We have 10 children. I don't know if we said that before. So if kids from all ages, you know, eight to 25 and grandchildren as well, but how many times would I maybe yell at another child who wouldn't call me out?

You know, the way that my son did who would just kind of like internalize that and that's not good, you know? And so I really think that one of the keys that to good parenting and one of the things that I know I am still I'm doing better at now that I'm older , but I didn't do as well. Definitely when I was younger is empathy and putting myself in their shoes, you know, like, okay, why they're grabbing these cookies off the table, whatever, why are they doing that?

You know, not that we always have to analyze everything that they do, but I think just to have that empathy of realizing, you know, what they don't understand, you know, they, they just don't know. They don't know. Okay. And that, that kind of helps you to have more patience. And more understanding and more of a teaching training attitude rather than you are driving me crazy.

You're so frustrating. You know, so I think that it kind of like overall, like parenting failure, things like that, like there's, there's definitely a lot of times that I have gone overboard and hurt my children's feelings, but I think the key is, is forgiveness. You know, like just as you know, Mike needing to forgive his dad, like I need to ask my children for forgiveness.

I need to say, I'm sorry that I yelled at you in that way, you know? Um, I'm sorry that I yelled at you for taking the car or whatever, but you're still grounded, you know, so just like kind of like recognizing that we do need to provide training and guidance to our children. But we can't make our emotion, a weapon that we wanna like wield over our kids.

But when you do, you can ask forgiveness of your children and, and then God can use that because that can be a powerful thing, you know, to ask forgiveness of your kids, parenting failed, Mike. Oh, I, yeah. Again, we, we, we could go into this for a while, but I, I kind of alluded to this earlier, but my anger was definitely something that was, I I'm I'm, uh, my parenting philosophy had been for many years, ignore, ignore explode.

Um, and so, you know, a child's doing something that is either we disagree with or, you know, is just annoying. I'll ignore it, I'll ignore it. And then I, when they kept pushing, when they kept, you know, particularly teenagers, they seemed to be experts at pushing all of my buttons. , uh, you know, they may have gotten a master's degree and I don't know what, but, but it was one of those times that I remember.

Uh, you know, handful of occasions where I just lose my cool, I lose my control. And, um, and I would yell at the kids and I would then impose very, uh, kind of, because I was so angry because the synapsis in my brains were refused together. I wasn't thinking clearly. And I impose, you know, really harsh, uh, punishments on them, which later at least she be like, well, maybe we shouldn't do that.

Or then she would give me the eye, like yeah. You know, and, and happily, she didn't correct me in front of the kids, but afterwards, like, I don't think that you handled that really. And it was, and I mean, actually do remember sometimes, um, especially when our oldest were teenager. Having to come and, and like, kind of like almost take your arm or touch you and being like, we need to walk away right now.

You know, like this is getting, this is too much. And that was definitely, yeah. You know, that was a, a major, major fail. And it also led me to some great guilt of sure. Am I repeat, you know, then that's when the fears, if you will. Yeah. Resurfaced of like, am I just repeating what I grew up with? Am I falling back into the default, uh, of that?

So anyway, that was that that's probably the biggest failure, um, yeah. In, in my parenting, um, controlling emotions. Yeah. But then there's like the little things like last night, um, it's seriously, this literally happened last night. Our son is sitting at the dinner table. I had made spinach, which I love some of the kids love he tries to get up and he is like, I was like, sit down and you need to finish that spin.

And he is like, oh mom, I'm like, I do not care. Put it on your fork and eat it. And the next thing I know, he threw up all over the table. I'm not kidding. I was mad at him. I was like, how damn you throw up? And Michael's like, he literally, he threw all over the table. Alicia, he threw up it's it's okay. It was, it wasn't that he just spit out the food.

He empty his stomach and he actually, Mike said, Alicia, there was no food on. Bla a minute ago. And it was like full of God, which is gross. I'm sorry. You can edit that out later. OK. Before that one. And, and I wish we would've learned this lesson because that's not the first time that's happened, not with this child, but with other, that actually has happened before once before, when I have forced a child to eat something that would be a great failure right there.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So do you want, keep it going no, no, no. This is great. Yeah, I'm sure we could do like a whole show. No, it's, it's incredible though. I love what you said, learning from your fellows. That's so important. Like we need to have the freedom to fail. Yeah. It's so key. I talk about this a lot, you know, with my team members, like in the business world, and if you, you need to have that freedom to fail because that's how you learn.

That's how you get better. That's how you get stronger. And what you said too, is like, you can repair the relationship. And I think Mike, for people like us, that's almost like this revolutionary idea. It's like, You can actually resolve conflict. You don't just like walk away and leave it undone. And like things just fall apart.

No, it's like, you can actually repair the relationship when something goes wrong. And for me that's been so encouraging is in my own marriage. Um, and especially looking forward as an parent. No, I agree with you. And it's one of those moments where, you know, the business world would say, you know, our entrepreneurs fail fast.

It's like, do any parents look at our failures and see that as, as a moment for guilt or shame or regret or. You know, or we just ignore it and move on, like you said, but the reality is is that every one of us is gonna fail own that, be comfortable with that, and then just learn from it and what we, one of our, our principles, uh, that we teach in, in our parenting, uh, you know, in our podcast and, and the, the, the conferences and retreats that we run is that it is not your job to, to turn your kids into perfect little, uh, saints.

Uh, it's their job to transform you. Meaning we get transformed through our parenting, into the best version of ourselves. It's by giving ourselves away that we're figuring out our faults, our mistakes, our, uh, lack of virtue or lack of self control or whatever it might be. So that through this we're learning, we're being shaped, we're being transformed.

All our rough edges are being shaved off. And it's a beautiful thing. When we take extreme ownership for our lives. Yeah, and that that's gonna, it's gonna change us, but it's also gonna be, if we, if we get that on the front end, you know, Joe, we learned this on the front end, you know, our, you know it, but it's like our failures as parents are all about how we are formed as parents.

Right? If that makes any sense. And I think sometimes, especially if you think that it's, it's my job to make this child into a Saint, then if something goes wrong, well, they're just not becoming a Saint it's, you're focused on the child on, on them. It's like, no in wait back up, time out, you need to be working on you.

The only person that you can change is yourself, you know, and that includes your children. Yes. You're there to form them and guide them and model for them and, you know, discipline and give that guidance to them. But the changing has to be up to them and, and we need to look at ourselves and. How, how can I love them better?

How can what's what is in me that is causing this, you know, whatever this frustration that's rising up in me, because they're just a kid, like they don't know, they're not waking up in the morning saying, oh, how can I annoy mom today? You know, like, how can I drive crazy guarantee? They are not thinking that at all.

They're thinking, you know, just life love. I want mommy to love me. I want daddy love me, you know? And when we get angry with them and we get emotional about their mistakes, we need to look at ourselves and say, okay, what's going on here? Like what's going on in, in us and not look at ourselves as failures, but we're still learning too, you know?

And God's trying to refine us, like Mike was saying, that's right, shave off those rub edges. Bring us to our knees and make us aware of our need for God's mercy. And that is not a bad thing. If children make you more aware of God's mercy, that's, that's a good place to be. that? No, that's so refreshing to what you said.

It's like, this is part of the process, like expect it. And I think that's so hopeful for anyone listening right now who maybe feels like they're, uh, you know, not able to be a good parent. It's like, yeah, you're gonna fail, but that's okay. Like you can learn from it. You can move forward. And, and so many good pieces of advice that you guys said.

And Mike, I appreciate that, you know, telling the, the advice that you gave me to just expect that and, and really prepare for it, because I think so often maybe as men, we have more of this tendency, it's easy to thrive maybe in one area of our lives. Maybe like you said, being humble in business and learning to fail fast, but.

You apply it to your marriage and it's like, you're pathetic at it. I know I've experienced that in my own life. Like I'm good at something in one area and then the other is not. So I, I appreciate that. And I wanna go back to something you said too, just about anger. Um, I've personally dealt with this too, especially right after my parents separated, when I was 11, I had all sorts of anger issues and had to go to anger management school.

Basically. It was very humbling. Um, but yeah, I think so many men deal with this and I think it, it points a bigger issue of just letting your emotions control your actions and whether that's in marriage and business and friendship or, or in parenting. And so yeah, the ability to detach, to take ownership of your actions and when you do mess up, just own it and, and make it better.

Yeah, man, there's so much I wanna say right now, you guys are fantastic. Alicia, just back to what you said. Putting yourself in your kids' shoes. One of the things kind of to add to that, that I've noticed with parents just kind of observing my own parents and then other parents around me is that I, I think we kind of forget what it was like to be kids.

Like, I, I try to remind myself that sometimes, like, what did I think and feel when I was like that age? And, uh, the more I've done that the more I've realized like, yeah, like there should be more grace, a hundred percent. And I do, I actually , I, a lot of times I very reflexively think about my childhood and think about what did my parents do in this situation.

And I think that that is a disadvantage, um, for children of divorce, if you don't have any memory of your dad being there, how would my dad handle this? Or your mom being there? How would my mom handle this? I don't know. I have nothing, you know, but I really do think about that. A lot of remember. Oh, well, how was he kid?

What would my mom do? You know? And I just almost subconsciously, you know, I think that right. And it, and it's good too, to remember your own childhood. And if that's hard to do, I could see how that would be, you know, a difficulty. No, for sure. I want to, uh, get your advice. On, uh, a bunch of different scenarios.

I'm gonna throw these at you. We can do kind of a back and forth soundbite thing here, uh, cuz I'm sure we could talk about each of these for forever. Um, and I have to admit little confession, a little bit of a selfish interview because, uh, my wife and I are expecting a baby. Uh, she'll be in about two months and we're so excited.

Yeah. Thank you. And yeah, so just trying to, you know, we're reading and trying to learn and listening to your podcast and all that and it's been fantastic. Thank you for that. Um, so yeah, I just wanna go through just series of questions and if you would give us your advice and uh, yeah, I guess the first thing is like as a new parent, if you could go back in time to yourself as a new parent, uh, and give some advice, uh, yeah.

What are a couple things that you'd say main points and I'm sure this might echo some of the things you said before, but what the first, the first thing that comes to mind. Chill out uh, yeah, we we're, as, as parents, we, we have to recognize we're playing a long game. It's it's not a sprint. It really is a long race and that there are gonna be cycles and seasons, uh, you know, early on you may get no sleep with a newborn, you know, and, and, and infant, uh, child, uh, or there's gonna be times when you have maybe one or two little kids that are just draining you and you're in the survival zone.

Mm-hmm, , they're seasons of life. And, um, and we need to have a longer perspective this isn't, you're not gonna stay in that zone forever. Um, but which is, is good and bad, right? Meaning sometimes you'll get through it quickly, but. Um, there are good moments, which, you know, just to really appreciate and, and soak up those moments because, you know, we have two, uh, married children now and, um, you know, three others who are essentially out, uh, out of the house, they do kids do grow up so fast.

So, so one don't get stressed. I know it doesn't feel like it, but they do but, and I never believed anybody, uh, who told me that . Um, but I would, I would say that that, that don't sweat, the small stuff have a bigger, longer term perspective. Um, and really kind of embrace, uh, each of those moments cuz they, you, for that child, you only have, you know, you have a limited amount of time and it's, and it's a gift.

Right. Uh, and to really embrace that, I, I felt like I kind of felt like I was looking for the right answer to everything. Yeah. Like I wanted to just do it. Right. I wanted to find to be the perfect there. Different. Yeah, exactly. I wanted to find like that perfect method. And I think a lot of people do that today.

Well, studies showed this, so this is what I should do. But the problem is that you can find studies that absolutely contradict each other about the way that you should raise an infant as far as like sleep schedules and feeding and you know, how you respond to them and you can find studies that are all over the place.

But what you really need to do is just work with unity, with your spouse on what is the best for you as a couple, what is the best thing for your family? And don't worry, don't worry about. doing it perfectly. It's okay. Like you were saying before, it's okay to make mistakes. You're going to make mistakes.

You're gonna try something to get them to go to sleep and it's not gonna work. And that's okay. That's totally fine. You can try something else or maybe you just need to try what you were doing a little bit longer. And so I feel like for me, like what I would tell myself, you know, if I was talking to myself as a new mom, say, don't worry about getting it all right.

And also just enjoy your children more. That's part of the great thing about being a grandparent now is that can just enjoy our grandchildren. And I have to say that even our younger children, um, like numbers eight, nine, and 10, I feel like we still. Take more time to just enjoy them. Yeah. And them just play games, games, hang out and just like laugh at them and just realize that, you know what I mean?

Like just kind of relax a little bit and not worry about, well, I have to hurry up and teach them all these things, because this is the important point to teach this blah, blah, blah. You know, it's okay. It's okay. Like it is it, your childhood does go fast, but it's also, you have time to teach them things little by little and a lot of things, times you are modeling, you're modeling for them, the way that you live your life is more important than anything you say, or any discipline plan that you have or anything like that.

Loving them and modeling God's love for them. Honestly, I really do think is the most important thing. I think that's more important. Then being really strict and firm on certain rules or having the perfect rules of the perfect system. Sorry, one, one thing that, that I, as long as you don't contradict me, yes.

You, everything you said was perfect. There you go. Perfect. Um, so if you learn this after 27 years, it's about priorities man, prior battles wisely. Uh, no. So, so, but I, I think I, I don't, I think now I appreciate it more than I did back then. The importance of our marriage. Yeah. Um, a as much as I loved my wife and we got, well, I think I took things for granted, meaning we, we were good.

We were both good people. We were trying to deal with our own stuff. And we were collaborating in this great work of raising these kids. And I would probably look back and. get a better habit of date nights. Yeah. Uh, on a regular basis basis for sure. Uh, going out together. Um, I think that we, early on, we were very good about that and then kids just make it more difficult, but I think they make everything more difficult but I think we, I, I gave up or settled too quickly and then I accepted jobs, um, that had me traveling a lot for work and I didn't compensate, you know, by saying, okay, now that I'm physically not home, how am I gonna maintain my emotional intimacy, uh, with my wife when we're physically not present?

Um, I, I think that looking back I've, you know, that would be, you know, some of the things that I, I think is strong, We're also seeing the fruit, you know, again, I think we have a great marriage, but it's like not taking any of that for granted and, and really developing early on good habits of yeah. Date nights and communication and so forth because we're seeing some, um, couples now come to us, struggling with even their own kids who now have left.

The faith are not following in their values. And one of the things that, that I, a common theme, common, the common theme was they had some major challenges in their marriages. And I look at that and I think that has a bigger influence than we may realize. Yeah. Uh, on our kids, like sleeping in separate bedrooms, you know, for years and years, that's, that's gonna affect your children, you know, and that's gonna affect the way that they see marriage and that they.

God and the faith and, and all of that. So, and, and anyway, it's important to work on your marriage and I'm sorry, I know you, I'm gonna just throw this out, just cause I've seen a couple of people for adult children of divorce, who, because they don't wanna repeat. What happened to them as a child, they often pour themselves out into their kids and they pour themselves into forming and loving their children that they actually unintentionally neglect their neglect, their marriage.

Yeah. And, um, and, and by doing that, you're actually. Undercutting the way that you're loving your kids and forming your kids, cuz the, the, um, the number one thing is if you wanna be a great parent, you need to be an even more amazing spouse. And I, I think we sometimes get things disordered, um, in our parenting.

Yeah. So anyway, sorry. I, I probably have other stuff you wanted rapid fire no, no, no, this is fantastic. And yeah, I'd like to stay there for a second. I think you guys covered that topic well, but I just wanna make sure everyone understands what we're saying here. Uh, there's a very big difference between a family that puts the children first and a family that puts the marriage first parents who put the kids first parents who put the marriage first.

And I actually had. Kinda debate with my mom recently. She very much so took the approach that the kids come first. And, uh, and I just wholeheartedly disagree with that. I agree with what you guys are saying. I've heard you say it on your podcast. It's so important to put your marriage first and obviously like you can't neglect your kids.

Like you need to feed them and take care of them. Um, there's a balancer of course, but, but I, I do believe in kind of the marriage centered family. Um, yeah. Is there anything else you'd like to add to that for someone who maybe isn't sure why that's so important? The, I just think about it. What were you like Mike was saying about your identity first as a son or a daughter, right?

That's that's how we start out. We all start out as children. Well then that's the next thing that happens or that should happen in the order of relationships you get married, like you get married first, then you have children or you need another person. You need that relationship. Your children come from.

Your relationship. That's where they come from. Right. And they don't, they don't, the children don't come first. And then, I mean, it's ridiculous, right? If you just even think about it naturally in the order of creation, they can. But then if you think about the order of grace, there is no, you know, as Catholics, we believe that marriage is a sacrament.

Well what's is there a sacrament of motherhood or is there a sacrament of fatherhood? No, there isn't. It's the sacrament of matrimony. That's where you get the grace to be a parent. You get the grace to be a parent from the sacrament of Mamo and you can't be, you cannot love your child. You cannot, we, first of all, only God can satisfy your longing of their heart.

But even me as their mother, I can't give them naturally everything they need in relationship. They not only do they need their father. but they also need our couple love, right? Our love together as a couple, that child needs that. And which is again, one of the tragedy of divorces. Is that still? Yes. Your father still loves you.

Your mother may still love you, but you lost their couple love and that's a security and a, and a place right. Of safety for kids, kids. I mean, you know, it's kinda like if you just think about. Uh, kind of psychological development of, or civilization development. Like you can't establish yourself, you can't have civilizations when they're, they're moving from place to place and they're afraid of enemies attacking or they've got food, right?

Mm-hmm but it's like, but when you are able to create a marriage centered family, you create a stabilizing force for your kids to be at peace, to be at a place where they can reveal themselves. And again, it's we? Yes, we need, um, a mom and a dad. Every child has a right to a mom and a dad to love them, but they need that extra protection, not extra.

That protection is necessary for their development and growth to have the love of that couple. One of the greatest parenting, um, approaches that you'll ever have comes from the unity of yeah. Your, of the spouses. And if you don't have that kind of deep, uh, loving intimacy, your kids, aren't gonna understand what true love is.

Cuz you're the first model of what real love is what real sacrifice mm-hmm means about how to give themselves away. The lessons that you teach simply by showing up and loving your spouse will leave lasting lasting memories. We, we had this, this, uh, priest that we interviewed a little while back and his, um, when we asked him, how did he, um, you know, how did he maintain his faith and so forth?

The first thing he turned to was talking about his parents and his grandparents love for one another more than about God or experience it was that, that they passed on this deep love for each other. Yeah. And that was how he found his vocation to give himself away. And so we need to give that for our kids'.

A true witness of what, and again, as Christians, we believe that Christ said, um, marriage is the model of how Christ, how God loves his people. Mm-hmm and how Christ loves the church. And so that's an image that they need to learn from. We need that to be the foundation of their physical, spiritual, emotional, and psychological development is that deep abiding love that no one person can do on their own.

And I really think too, that it's a it's disordered it's it sends a disordered message because when you have two adults looking at a child and they, this child is the center of their universe, that's a lot of pressure for a kid. You know, like most kids don't wanna be the center of their parents' universe.

They're like, yeah, I'm just growing up. Can you, you don't have a life of your ugly, you know, like I feel like it really is. It's too much. And it sends this message to their child that our life revolves around you. Our life does not revolve around our children. My life does not revolve around. That's creating a selfish child.

Exactly. My life has God in the center. And then our marriage with God, you know, intertwined is in the center of our family. And then our kids know that, and our kids are part of a community that is our family. They are participating members, not the focus of they are the participating members, which in this community.

And like, my dad would always say to us, he would like you kids. You're gonna be outta the house in 18 years. I'm living with this woman till the end of my life. You know, he was more important as far as the priority of relationships within the home. Their marriage was first. Yeah. You know, and we all knew that and it, and it gave us a, a sense of a real stability.

That's right. That's exactly so good. Yeah. And two things stuck out to me in what you guys said, one, just that the power of modeling, I, I think you guys have said this on your show. I've heard other people say it too. How you know more is, is caught than taught. And that's basically what you said before Alicia.

And, and I think that's so key because you know, Mike, you teach your boys. What it's like to be a man, how to treat a woman just by your presence, your example, the way you live your life and Alicia, the same for you and your girls. And so the them watching and seeing, okay, this is how you love. It's so important.

I think that's why we struggle so much in our relationships as people come from broken families, because we just didn't see a good model of that. And that's what the research shows. And the, the second thing is just the security. You guys mentioned that just the safety and security of the kids. So there's a couple that I really look up to.

They're just this beautiful marriage, great marriage. And I've been blessed to spend time with them. And they've really healed kind of this broken idea that I have of marriage. And, uh, they told me a story. Uh, on another episode we did with. They said that, uh, uh, Joe, the, the guy, his, his wife's name is, uh, Maria.

Uh, they were in the kitchen and he just like grabbed her and was kind of dancing with her and he kissed her. And, uh, his daughter, one of his daughters was just like standing there, just like soaking it all in just watching this. And, uh, he said, he looked down at her and he just saw this just pure joy in her face and just this sense of contentment and security.

And so there's more than maybe words can even express how putting your marriage through. So you exactly the situation you're describing. We have seen that many times with our children as well. It's true. As well as sometimes them going, uh, yeah. Are you kissing? But then we also seen particularly younger kids.

We were at Alicia was just talking about this the other day, about how, uh, particularly little guys, when we hugged. They'll like try to pull us in so that it's both of us, like she's getting like this, this group hug from mom and dad, you know, and there's this couple love that she wants. Like, I feel like that's the image is that, you know, I, oh, I love mommy.

Oh, but I want daddy in here too, you know? And it's like, that's the, that's the powerful symbol. Because again, at the end of the day, part of our hope for our children is that they are launched out into the world as you know, generous, kind, loving thinking about others first, all of these things that we want, well, how do we start that?

If, if they don't recognize that they're part of a, a community of love, right? And that they are the center, but that they are members of there, they are born in love for love and, and with love. Right. So that, that they then can be launched out, uh, with them. But without that stability. Without that marriage, uh, it really is.

It hurts. And again, that's what we're recognizing, right? As adult children of divorce, we're recognizing that we have had a wound that we've had a crippling. So the antidote for that yeah. Is not to simply protect ourselves and pour ourselves into our kids. It's the first pour ourselves into our marriage so that we together can form these kids and, and really change our family history, change the legacy that we have, uh, flowing out from us that our kids get something that we didn't get the love of both a mom and a dad, that marriage that is such a powerful force for kids.

Hmm, love it. Yeah. And it's, it's just so foundational when that foundation is shaken, it affects everything. And when it's strong, it affects everything. So good. I wanted to ask about, uh, when it comes to making decisions, like, obviously you make a lot of decisions as parents. Uh, what, what's your general advice from making decisions, especially when maybe you and your spouse don't see things at eye, you, you maybe disagree, uh, on something.

How, how do you handle that situation? Here's what I want parents to remember. It's better to be wrong together than right alone. Okay. you heard that, right? so we now of course, we're not talking about like moral, evil or whatever, but it's better for you to make a United decision that may not be like the absolute perfect plan or, you know, whatever, but it's something that you can both agree on rather than one of you being like, I know this is the right way and I'm just gonna go on and do it by myself.

Um, because your unity, the unity between mom and dad, that is the best parenting method then you could possibly have. And, you know, we talk about, we kind of already talked about this and the fact that, that, um, couple love or that the way we were just describing it to another couples we were talking to is like synergy, right?

So what's synergy in the business world. It's look all together. We can come up with a better idea than any one of us could by ourselves or than any one of us could come up with by compromising synergy is not compromising. It's not like, okay, well you wanted two and I wanted one. So we'll do one and a half.

No. Synergy is like, is us putting everything it's standing shoulder to shoulder with your that's gonna spouse. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Standing shoulder to shoulder with your spouse, looking at this problem, looking at an issue and saying, how can we do this together? Because we're on the same page. We're on the same team.

Yeah. I just, but out here is the problem just to add to that. I, I really think that too many times we try to settle and we try to compromise. And, and again, there is a place for compromising, you know, or we just gotta go along for the, for peace at any price. Right. You know, like I don't argue anymore, so I'm just gotta let it go.

And, and sometimes we do just need to say, Hey, it's not that big of a deal to me. Right. Let's let it. I'm not gonna worry about it because I think sometimes we make things a bigger deal than they really need to be. Um, sometimes there are decisions that. It really doesn't matter to me, but I'm fighting for the principle of it.

Like, well, she won 10 of the arguments. I should have one of mine. That's not what it's about. You know, in marriage, it's about we're all in a hundred percent, a hundred percent, not 50 50. I only, I I'll give her some of the decisions. I'll take some of the decisions. That's not what a marriage makes. Yeah.

What we are talking about is the two become one, which is not an easy process, uh, that the two of you are forming a more United approach, but it comes when we, again, we talked about this a little bit earlier, but, and as Alicia mentioned already, it's business world. We want to be able to make a, a unified plan for our organization to succeed.

And in order to do that, we, as Alicia said, need to sh stand shoulder, shoulder, and look at the situation, the decision that's before. And not look at our petty counting the costs or who has done this, or how many times have we gone to your family or my family or, or whatever, whatever the decision might be.

It's looking at the situation and saying what's in our best interest for us as a couple and us as a family. And not settling. And sometimes what we have done, um, is take a step back from the, the practical, uh, applications and look back at the deeper reasons why. Right. Uh, which is a whole other pro we have this whole thing.

I think you may have heard of us talk about this on the podcast, but. A family board meeting where you get together and get unity on some of the biggest stuff in your life so that you can have a plan when the little things come up, you've already got a process. You already got some of the big things decided which help make some of the smaller decisions easier.

Right. Uh, as you go along. So good. Thank you guys so much. If people wanna learn more and, and get your advice on further parenting topics. Yeah. We'd love to have them join us@messyfamilyproject.org. Our website, um, has we have a little over 150, uh, podcast episodes. So whether it's in iTunes or Spotify or wherever you get your podcast, we're, we're, uh, streaming there.

Um, as well as we have, uh, online, uh, guides and resources, free conversation starters, we have a discipline guide that has proven to be very popular for people. So you can go and check that out if you have discipline questions. And we've just recently started a, uh, some courses in other events that we're doing as well on, uh, for formation of, of parents.

So it's all on the website. Awesome. We'll link to those in the show notes. Thank you guys so much for, for being here. And I just wanna give you the last word. What encouragement would you give to someone who comes from a broken home who maybe feels unable to be a good parent? They feel like, I don't think I have what it takes.

Uh, what encouragement. I, I don't know why God has entrusted with you a child, but he has, and you are perfectly designed. That's right. Uh, to be a parent for this child. That's right. The greatest gift you can give your child, um, is first loving their mom or dad loving your spouse, and then making sure you're always working on yourself, taking extreme ownership because the, um, the, those who are wounded, who.

Deal with their wounds will continue to wound and hurt others. The more that we can invest in freeing ourself up by, by healing and transformation, um, we will then be the best parents our kids could ever want because this, this whole idea of parenting is both for them. And for us, it's a path where we're giving ourselves away and learning the path of freedom.

The more genuine we are, um, with our kids and giving them the fullest love, we can, that's gonna set them up for great success and don't sweat the fact that you're not perfect. No, one's perfect. You're not alone. And everybody, uh, fails. Everyone has, uh, stumbles along the way. No one is, is equipped to fully be the best parent.

We just have to make sure we show up with our level best in dealing with our past. And, and, and yeah, and just know that God is, God is bigger than everything, you know, that's right. There's no, there's no problem that he can handle.

I could have talked with them forever. So many great things, so many great practical tips that they gave. But one big takeaway for, for new parents is that you don't have to be perfect. Like Mike and Alicia said, you will make mistakes. You don't have to get everything right. And that's okay. Just, just do your best.

Keep learning, keep growing, keep getting better, but you don't have to be perfect. And there, I think there's so much freedom in that. And it's a good reminder. And if you want more from Mike and Alicia, if you want more of their great content, their guidance, go ahead and listen to the messy family podcast.

Wherever you listen to podcasts again, that's the messy family podcast and on their show, if you wanna hear Mike's full story, listen to episode 1 56, again, that's episode 1 56 on the messy family. Podcast. I recommend starting, uh, with that show, but of course, feel free to dive in wherever you'd like. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 44.

Thank you so much for listen. And if this has been useful, I invite you to subscribe and to share this podcast with someone, you know, who could really use it, who would be useful for always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#043: Do You Feel Abandoned by God? | Fr. John Paul Mary

If you’re from a broken family, you likely struggle extra in your relationship with God. There are so many barriers people like us have to overcome. One barrier is feeling abandoned by God.

In this episode, a Catholic priest who is a child of divorce joins us to discuss:

• How to overcome common barriers people like us face in our spiritual lives

• What to do if you feel abandoned by God

• How father and mother wounds impact our relationship with God

• What to do if you feel far from God and want nothing to do with him

Find a spiritual director

Links & Resources

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• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Episode 9: A Retreat for Adult Children of Divorce | Dr. Daniel Meola, PhD

• Website: Life-Giving Wounds

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• Website: Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word

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• Novena to Mary Undoer of Knots

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Today, we dive into healing on a spiritual level, healing your relationship with God because people like us, people come from broken homes, tend to struggle in our relationship with God. There's just numerous barriers that we have to overcome to have a relationship with God and numerous things in our lives that make it difficult to have that relationship with God.

And we really haven't talked about this much on this show. At least not specifically in an entire episode, some of our guests have brought it up here or there, but we wanted to talk about healing, your relationship with God. Now we know that you maybe don't believe in God. We have listeners who come from all sorts of backgrounds.

And so if that's you, if you don't believe in God, if you're just not ready for this whole God stuff, we totally respect that. And you're totally welcome here. Right? We don't just exist to serve religious people. We exist to serve you. And so we're so happy that you're here, but my challenge for you is this don't shut this off.

Give it a shot. Just listen to it. You don't have to do anything else. Just listen to it. And if this is uncomfortable for you, if it's a sensitive topic, just listen, J just hear it out. I think you're gonna get something out of it. Maybe that you don't expect. And the truth is that we can't not talk about this stuff.

We have to talk about the deep and important things in life. And this is certainly one of them. And so give this a shot and what you're gonna hear in this episode, we talk about some common barriers that people like us face in our spiritual life, and some tips on how to overcome them. We talk about what to do.

If you feel like God has abandoned you, like how do you handle that? What do you do about that? How do you overcome that barrier touch on perfectionism? Like how often we feel like we need to be perfect in order to have a relationship with God in order to earn God's love. We also hit on father wounds and mother wounds and how they impact our relationship with God.

And then what to do. If you feel far from God, maybe you just don't want anything to do with God, or you feel like God, maybe doesn't want anything to do with you. So lots of good stuff, some deep stuff, but equally important stuff. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 43. And today my guest is father John Paul, Mary that's, right. It's a priest.

We have a priest on the show. It's the first time we've ever done that. And he was born and raised in new freedom, Pennsylvania. He earned a, an associate's degree in engineering from DeVry Institute of technology. Uh, he went to seminary shortly after his graduation, where during his time there, he visited the Franciscan missionaries of the eternal word, a, a religious order.

And after graduating from seminary, he actually entered that religious order. He then completed his theological studies at Mount St. Mary's seminary and earned a masters in divinity. He was ordained a priest in 2013. And father now serves as the employee chaplain for E WTN, the eternal word. Television network.

It's basically a Catholic TV network and you're gonna hear him mention it, but we actually met years ago in Israel. And he'll, he'll talk about it a little bit more, but it's just a pleasure to have him on we reconnected recently. And so I'm really glad to share this conversation with you between me and father,

John Paul, welcome to the show. It's great to be here, Joey. I love the fact that you're on the show because like I um, mentioned in the intro, we haven't really tackled this topic specifically in a podcast episode, it's come up here or there, but for so many people who come from broken families, there are so many barriers, so many things that prevent them from having a relationship with God or at least make it harder.

Hmm. And so I'm really excited to dive into this topic with you, but I wanna start a little bit with your story. How old were you when your parents divorced? I was 24 years old. I had just started college seminary at the Pontifical college. Joseph phum in Columbus, Ohio. So I wasn't young, uh, in the terms of like being below teenage years or even teenage years, I was 24 years old after my parents had been married for 25 years.

Wow. So this was not something that happened right? Outta the gate. You, yeah. They had been married for years and years. Yeah. As much as you're comfortable saying, uh, how did you deal with the breakdown of their marriage? The breakdown of your family, the divorce, and Joey is very hard. Just like anyone. I think a lot of people say that, you know, there's, um, kind of the false phrase that children are resilient, that children will somehow get over it, that they need to let their parents move on with their life.

And that, you know, somehow the children will, no matter what age I think is this phrase is used more with younger children. I. Than with adults mm-hmm , but I guess in my case, like I was 24 and, uh, I can honestly say that it was earth shattering. Uh, it was hard, very hard. Uh, I didn't think it would be as difficult as, uh, it was, I was away at school, uh, 400 miles away from home mm-hmm and first, before I entered a seminary, it, it, it really happened when I entered the seminary, the actual separation and divorced when I entered college seminary, but it had been happening, you know, the breakdown for years.

My dad's an alcoholic and he's, again, I, I don't wanna at all demonize my father in any way. I love my father. I think my father is a good man, but you know, at the same time, you know, I, I guess we were gonna more or less focus on, you know, myself right on how I dealt with this myself. Mm-hmm it was very hard.

I, um, felt helpless. Um, I felt like, I think you kind of enter into the mindset of, um, I wish I could be there if I was there, then maybe they wouldn't have broken up. kind of all the false things that, um, adult children of divorce, um, think about, or, or just kind of their minds are consumed about if, if I would've been there then yeah.

Like I said, things would've been a little bit different and that's not the case. I think, you know, one of the things that I've learned through the years in, um, in dealing in going to Alanon, which is, uh, the 12 steps for friends and family members of alcoholics mm-hmm, . I've learned that, uh, the three CS you didn't cause it you're not the cure and you can't control it.

Wow. I learned that 20 years ago, but now, I mean, even still 20 years plus later, I still am trying to assimilate and embody those principles because you know, sometimes the, the old Demonn the old wounds that we deal with, uh, surface, uh, from this wound. One of the things that I think for me, I think maybe some of your viewers might identify with is I started having panic attacks.

Hmm. Yeah. In college and Joey never in my life, did I have any form of anxiety? I was pretty active growing up sports and I was in pretty good shape. I never had any type of anxiety. I had some, probably some social fears, maybe. Um, I was a little bit shy but I, I really had no, no forms of anxiety or anything like that growing up.

And it was like a switch that went on. If, if I can use that type of, uh, uh, analogy, it was like a switch went on when my parents, uh, divorced in like a wreckage in my, in my own life that I started having panic attacks when I was in seminary. And so I had to kind of deal with that at the same time while I was trying to discern mm-hmm, my life choice.

And, and also like where God was calling me. To be a priest and to discern and enter into formation. I was entering and also dealing with my parents' marriage falling apart and also dealing with, gosh, how do I navigate the panic and anxiety and all this stuff and, and, and what, everything that that brings into one's life.

Absolutely so many people listening right now can relate to you. I know I can. Mm-hmm uh, I dealt with anxiety on different levels. I know people close to me who specifically dealt with like O C D, which of course is very much so related to anxiety. And so, yeah. Thank you for being so vulnerable. I can't imagine how, you know, scary those panic attacks must have been.

I've been with people when they're having panic attacks and there's not a pretty thing for any of you listening. Who've never seen that. It's not pretty. It is scary. And so father thank you for, for being so vulnerable. And one of the things going back to what you mentioned about your dad, mm-hmm, , I've never met a parent who wanted to harm their child.

No, absolutely. You know, by getting divorced, our parents would typically jump in front of a bullet for us, jump in front of a train, whatever they needed to, to protect us. I think often what happens is that they don't quite understand or know. What happened? So I just wanna put that out there for any parents listening right now.

Um, as you've heard me say before, we are not here to demonize you. In fact, one of the things that we wanna do is we wanna help heal the relationship between the parents and the child. And the only way we can do that is by speaking the truth and saying, this is harmful, this is damaging. And then we can move forward from there.

Amen jelly. I look, I often look at this photo album. My mom put together for me of my dad and myself, and there's many pictures there. And there's a picture of my dad holding me after coming home from the hospital. There there's so many blessed memories that I have compared to the, the fallout of the divorce.

So I try and focus on, on those memories that I have when, when your mind is just going crazy, sometimes a about the, the fallout from, uh, the divorce. Yeah, no, that's a beautiful thing. And I. Can relate on that level too. Like, I love my parents. I know you would say the exact same thing. Like I love them dearly.

I worry about them. I worried about them when I was 11 years old. When they separated, I was had a lot of anger toward them. But I also just worried about them cuz I cared about them. I loved them. And so, uh, I know that feeling you mentioned too, being away and feeling helpless. I, anyone who knows the more details of my story, my parents separated when I was 11.

Uh, they got back together actually a year and a half later. And so it was still, you know, traumatizing and difficult and their marriage was still broken, but they were together, which was good. And that continued on for another 10 years. And so I was away at college first semester away. And uh, when I got the call that my parents had began a divorce and so same things went through my mind as well.

I thought, man, if I was only there, like I could do something, I could prevent this from happening. And so felt helpless, blamed myself and so on. So you're not alone there. I know people listening right now feel the exact same. There's so many of us who feel this way. So thanks again for, for your vulnerability.

I wanna switch gears a little bit and talk about your relationship with God. I'm curious. What were the effects of your parents' broken marriage on your relationship with God, Joey? I think that that's a question that is still 20 years later unraveling. It's not something. I think that all, when my parents divorced that all of a sudden that I had kind of written down these, these points, um, these bullet points and kind of a perfect outline of these, this is what I'm feeling, Joey.

I I've. Going through counseling in seminary, uh, both seminaries that I was at, um, I'm going through, you know, some kind of formal counseling to deal with, uh, the hurt, the pain of, um, my parents' divorce. And I think so many on so many levels. I think like every single person that I met with every counselor that I met with, you know, led me to, you know, kind of a certain kind of understanding and articulation, you know, you know, different things that I've done, but to get back to the question.

Right now I'm in no, like I may be a priest and I may be a religious for 17 years now and a priest for 18 for eight years. but in no way, do I want to, I wanna tell our viewers, first of all, I, I just wanna say, just be patient with yourself, be very patient with yourself and it's okay. That it takes time to figure these things out.

And God is very, very patient with us. That's one of the things that I've learned, uh, through the years that being a perfectionist myself, I thought that I needed to be perfect for God to love me. I think everything that I did Joey, as a child, I think, and this stems from, I think me trying to get my dad's attention.

I was a star, all star baseball player. Third base. My grandfather used to call me Brooks, Robinson , uh, said that, you know, nothing could get past me out third base. And I remember coming home and telling my dad, you know, what I did and how many hits I had and how much I was on base and how many RBIS I had and whatever so forth.

And then it went on, uh, you know, different things that I, that I did. In childhood speed skating. I was a very good speed skater, roller skater. I was a skateboarder too, as well during that time. So like for five to six years, I, my whole life revolved around, um, going down to the skate park and skating street and, uh, many ramp and even vert ramp, even skated with a professional skateboarder at one time.

Uh, I kind of boast about that a lot. Wow. A lot of lot, some our viewers watch the X games and they might know who Bucky LASIK is. okay. And I actually skated with him on a, a mini ramp that a hometown that he lived at, and I always kind of boas skated with a professional skateboarder. Not that I was a professional skateboarder or anything, but, but.

There was this, there was this real, like push in me to Excel at everything on every level in skateboarding. And then in high school and post high school, the big thing for me and what consumed my life before my conversion was my car. I had a, a compact car, 1991 Honda CRX. Uh, if our viewers have ever watched fast and the furious, that was my life.

uh, I lived that life radically. I know when you, when you watch that movie, that was my life. I mean, there's no getting around it. Yeah. It is a subculture. I was in it literally, and it's it consumed my life. And, and this goes back to my debt. I, I was kind of imitating my father cuz my father loved cars growing up.

My dad had 68 Mustang, which he sold when I was 16, 15. He didn't want me to kill myself, wrap myself, wrap myself around that telephone pole. I remember the person counting out the dollar bills on the table and watching that, watching the car, literally being driven off mm-hmm and I thought to myself, I'm gonna have a car one day.

So I did and I was putting literally thousands and even 10 thousands of dollars, uh, ultimately into this car. And it, this car is what was my small G God. I mean that, that car sucked the life out of me. And that was the, I just kind of give that kind of a background story, I guess mm-hmm . To to say that my, it was really a, a perfectionism, uh, that was really unhealthy.

And still, even then I have to battle even still to this day, a false reality that I somehow need to prove my existence to God. I need to prove my value and my worth to God. That's not true. God loves me into being, you know, I exist everybody. That's listening to this podcast exists because they are known by God.

They are loved by God and they're sustained by God right now. As we speak right now, God is holding us into existence. If he would stop thinking about us for one moment, for one IOT of a moment, we would not just be dust Joey. We would be annihilated. Wow, totally. We'd be annihilated. If God would stop thinking about us.

I think that for me to kind of, I know it's kind of long winded answer, but, um, you're good. But for me, the, when, when the divorce happened, I was already in seminary. So thank God I had that environment of support of prayer, community prayer, the Eucharist, every day, confession. I had many people surrounding me that love me and that, you know, that I could open up to and be vulnerable to.

And some people don't, maybe some of our viewers don't have that yet. Yeah. Don't don't have that support system. And that support system is. Is really absolutely crucial. I think in moving forward in any kind of, um, healing, and I'm not just talking short term healing, but we want long term healing too.

Don't we, we want to, you know, look at the human person as, as Bo mind, body and soul. The effect of our parents' divorce is going to affect every single facet of our life and not just the spiritual life we're, we're kind of dealing with the spiritual aspects in this show. Mm-hmm , but it it's going to deal with, you know, our physical health.

Sometimes it's gonna deal with our emotional health, psychological mental wellbeing, but of course, it's going to Reve havoc on our spiritual life. We're mind, body, and soul. That makes so much sense. And what you said. This need that you felt to impress your dad to get his attention to really, if I could put it this way to earn his love.

Yes. And in the same way you felt the need to earn God's love as well. Yes. And so, yeah. How, um, I'm curious and I, and again, I know this is still always a work in progress. Healing is an infinite goal. It's something we're always working on and in one way or another, even though you can make real progress and I know you have, yeah.

How did you heal that relationship with God? Like how did you get past some of those obstacles, those barriers that were preventing you from having intimacy with God? What, what did you do there? You mentioned a couple things so far, but if you would elaborate on that, I think the temptation is always to, I, I wanna.

Diverge from like what I did rather to what, to what God did I think. Mm. Because we could, we could, we could focus on methods. Certainly we could focus on all kinds of different methods and you know, how very helpful stuff that is available for us. But I think like in a spiritual dimension, we have to, to realize that even before I move, even before, um, you know, father John Paul, or even back then when it, you know, my, my baptismal name is Joshua David.

I was Joshua David when it happened. when in religious life we receive a new name, uh, for some of our viewers that aren't familiar with, uh, religious life, we receive a, a new name to symbolize our. New mission and consecration to God much like Abraham becomes Abraham. Sara becomes Sarah and Simon becomes Peter.

So, you know, Joshua sometimes when I talk to myself, Joey, I actually call myself Joshua . Okay. I actually say, you know, uh, I just say Josh, Josh, you're so stupid. when you, when you wanna beat yourself up, I just literally say, what do you thinking, Josh? What do you think ? Um, I guess I, I just wanna say that I allowed God to draw close to me, you know, rather than, I mean, obviously there is the, there is a dimension of us strolling close to God and us making the effort.

It is an effort to, to pray and to, uh, seek out help and to seek the Lord's assistance and all this. But I, I think that I wanna, I want to emphasize the spiritual dimension for our listeners, that we have to first realize that God draws close to us in our misery, in our brokenness, that he is the one who takes the initiative first, even before I move, even before I utter any kind of prayer any time before, um, I say, I might say, Lord, where are you in this?

Anything, anytime I kind of move, I, I make an effort or a thought about God, God, is there, Joey, God moves first. Does that make sense? I really absolutely think that that's helpful. In our healing is that God cares. Mm-hmm that actually, that God is actually interested in me. God, God has a vested personal interest in me.

Um, I think that's helpful for, to kind of wrap your mind around. That's one of the things I think that's led to the most, most healing in my, my spiritual outlook of this all is that God draws near to me in my brokenness, in my misery profound. And it sounds like one of the things that you had to do was just let him love you, which can be so difficult at times.

Totally. It sounds easy in some ways it's like, it's not so easy. I don't wanna, I don't wanna pretend that what I just said. I came to overnight. Oh my gosh. No, I don't wanna pretend that that was easy at all. I'm sure it was preached to me. I'm sure I heard it growing up from the pulpit, but you know how sometimes our ears and our souls are not quite ready for what is being preached to us.

Totally. You know, we need to, you know, our, our, our souls are like the seed ground of, of the, you know, kind of like the parable, the so, and the seed. I, I, I always think that when that parable comes up of the Rocky ground and also the, the ground that has, uh, that is semi kind of prepared, that has that, that the seed is plant, that the seed is thrown and it grows for a time, but then the sun comes and then it's scorched mm-hmm and then you have the seed that is thrown and then thorns come choke up, kind of come up and choke the seed.

But then you have this seed ground that is fertile and life giving, and that is the seed ground that allows really kind of healing in the word of God. And, and also the psychological sciences too. I don't wanna, I don't wanna say that when, when we talk about mind, body and soul, it's not just the, the, the gospel that we're talking about in this realm of healing too, but we're also, I think can be very helpful is conversations with, um, professionals in the, in the psychological realm and, um, mental health realm that God can use all those things to re to bring about restoration and healing.

Absolutely. We can't compartmentalize the human person. Yes. Uh, each part of us. Good way of putting the other parts. Yep. As a priest, you counsel a lot of people who spiritually direct people, you, you hear a lot of confessions and I'm curious. Yeah, it's beautiful. I'm curious. What are some common struggles and some barriers that, that you see that people who come from broken homes, uh, tend to have in their relationship with God.

Wow. Joey, I'm smiling. Cuz to hear confessions is the greatest thing that I do practically. I can't imagine it is in that realm. I always see, I always like to say, and I would say to our audience, especially those that are Catholic. I think, I think that for. For, for us it's that realm is so sacred. I treat it almost as like the burning Bush.

I mean, it's that literally, I mean, it's like Moses approaching the Lord took off his shoes and you know, his, his countenance changed when he was before the Lord. Like the confessional is literally that sacred, uh, when somebody approaches that, that realm of healing, I would say that how, how can I summarize this?

I could talk for an hour about this. We could do an entire show on this. No question. I love it. I love it. I love that you brought this up. I just going back to what you said about, uh, at the beginning of the show, and I'll beginning this question about barriers. When you said that word at the beginning of the show, and also now not just barriers, Joey, but people we put up castles we, we put up huge walls and fortresses around us.

yeah. To pro to protect us. Yeah. And we don't want to let people in, we don't even wanna let that draw bridge down to let somebody in, you know, we we're, we're very, I think we're very guarded. If, if that's, I guess that's an appropriate world, we're very guarded even in the spiritual realm. And I found even in, in confession, in the sacrament app penance very often, sometimes I can, I can notice now that I've going through healing myself, and I wanna say that I'm.

I'm not healed by any stretch of the imagination. I'm a work in progress. Or rather, I like to say I'm a mess in progress but I think that I can more easily notice now those barriers, those castles, those walls that people are putting up and you have to be very patient with people. You have to be very gentle with people.

And I think it's helpful for priests. If there's any priests that are, that are listening to this, for them to be very patient and gentle with people who have brokenness in their, in their background, in the, whether their parents are divorced, uh, or not, maybe it's some other kind of brokenness. Uh, we priests need to be very patient.

I remember a priest that was our superior used to say. That, uh, were to be like a lion from the pulpit and a lamb in the confessional, uh, to treat people like literally a lamb to treat people like Jesus would. Uh, can I tell a story quick please? Yeah. And there's a story about St. Leo Paul man ditch. He's, uh, a confessor that spent just as many hours as pad PIO in the confessional, 13 to 15 hours a day, even more in the confessional.

Wow. And he dealt with a lot of people. So you have to think that he dealt with a lot of brokenness. There was one story about him where one of the fryers said, father, Leah poll. You're too lenient on people. You're not hard. You're not hard enough on us in the confessional. And he said, I want you to go into the chapel and I want you to take it up with him.

Who's in the tabernacle because that's who I learn, how to be a priest from how to be patient with people is Jesus. You look at the gospels, Joey, look at the gospels and look at how Jesus dealt with sinners. He was very patient and that's how I think I, in my ministry as a priest, I, how, how I try and deal with people in the confessional is, is in a very patient manner.

Sometimes those wounds like in my life, I think bringing it back to me here I am 20 years later. And a lot of, I think a lot of those wounds are now still being. Addressed or even brought to the surface even for the first time, even in 20 years. Yeah. Even during the pandemic I've been able to, in that realm heal so much and been able to address, I think, more concretely those areas.

That's fantastic. And I love what you said about the confessional. Let's stay there for a second. Sure. I know so many people listening, uh, some, you know, are not religious. Some are religious, some are Catholic. Some are not, I think there's this immense fear when it comes to confession. And I felt that so much in my own life, uh, especially.

When I was younger and I did some pretty bad things screwed up and just terrified. Like literally I remember one time father, I was standing in line for the confessional and I literally was shaking cuz I was so afraid to tell the priest what I had done. And so I think there was a lot of people like that and especially people who maybe been away from it for a long time.

And so I love what you said. It's super encouraging. It's like you're not waiting in the confession to like smite someone you're just like receiving them with love. Yes, absolutely. I would like to say if, if there, if there ever has been an experience in your life where, what, maybe it was in the confessional, it maybe it was a priest.

Um, maybe it's an older listener. We're listening to that's listening right now. Maybe a priest wasn't kind to you in the confessional. Um, wasn't considerate. Wasn't patient, uh, was maybe he was, you felt like he was rushed. I wanna apologize for that. I wanna say, I'm profoundly sorry. In the name of Jesus Christ.

And as a priest of his church, that's not how a priest should be in the confessional. Now priests are weak too. I mean, you know, we're subject to being tired and I don't want to, you know, make excuses. Um, but at the same time, I think as when Pope Francis commissioned me as a missionary of mercy in the, in the Jubilee year of mercy, he told us in Rome, I remember that he didn't want the confessional to be like a torture chamber and he used that kind of imagery that he said, may, may, perhaps some people have that experience of the confessional being a torture chamber.

And I bring that up, Joey, because I have in these five years that I've been a missionary of mercy I've I've made public, you know, almost apologies to people like I just did. And people have come back to the church and come back to confession because of that, I believe it. I mean, I've, I've seen people almost break down in front of me because they have had a bad experience as a child.

Um, so that being said, you know, fear is part of the, I mean, I think everybody, every one of us has fear, even, even those people who, who, who don't have a broken, uh, background, you know, fear is part of the fallen human condition. And I think, especially when you're, you're dealing with sin in whatever kind of sin it may be, I think for most people, sexual sin tends to be the most fearful of those sins that are confessed.

because that's where shame enters into the picture, because the reality is Joey human sexuality is from God. It's beautiful. Hmm. It's so beautiful when it's oriented toward God and union with God and for married love and for procreation. But when, when Satan twists the picture, when Satan just throws a wrench into God's most beautiful creation into the human person, into the gift of human sexuality, it's like a, a machine that is meant to run perfectly that when the wrench hits the gears, what do those gears start to do?

They grind mm-hmm and, and they don't work properly. And I think that's, that's where. In the spiritual realm in the emotional realm, in so many other realms in, in our, in our thought life, we, we begin to be almost consumed by our sins and our shame. And I would just like to encourage our viewers to bring that to God's mercy.

There's nothing that a priest in my opinion has not heard and that we're, we're supposed to be as priests we're supposed to be in the person of Jesus. So you're, you're confessing those most intimate, those most vulnerable shameful sins. You're bringing those to the, the divine mercy to God's healing mercy.

And, and I would just say to you that I'm praying for you, first of all right now. And I know that Joey's praying for you and, and all, I think let's, let's just say all the viewers are praying for you, for anyone that may be listening, uh, for, for healing that you may not be scared. It may take time to get over that.

It's not, it's not easy. It's not a, I wish I wish I can just snap my fingers right now and just heal. And that, that fear, I think that the more we go before God in the sacrament app penance, and maybe you experience this too, and you can give firsthand account, Joey. I, I can, I can as well. The more I, the more I started to go to confession and bring those sins that I had before God to be healed, the more I would go, the more comfortable I was.

And that fear started to dispel and I wasn't afraid anymore. I I'm actually now I love confession. I go to confession all the time. I never went to confession growing up. I mean, I didn't grow up really as a, on fire, a Catholic going to confession all the time. I mean, there was a time where I didn't go to confession for 15 years.

Hmm. So once I started going to confession, which was really during my conversion in my twenties, and then when I entered the seminary, um, I started to see that, that the confessional is a place of healing. That's what it is. I mean, the sacrament app penance and reconciliation is the sacrament. One of the sacraments of healing besides the sacrament of the anointing of a.

Incredible. Yeah, I know that's a, that's a long convoluted answer to your question. No, no. I thought it was on point. I thought it was really good. And that was so refreshing hearing. You apologize for preset there who maybe were mishandled, you know, a certain confession or who be struggled with, you know, treating people well, and I've, I've had my, uh, fair share of those and that's, um, disappointing, but I've also had some incredible confessions and we just were research is so understanding.

And so, yeah, just so merciful yeah. In their humanity. I know they're representing Jesus in that moment, but also like, as a person, so empathetic and yeah, one thing I would say. To everyone listening, especially anyone who, a, a Catholic, who hasn't been a confession to a long, for a long time, just, it will feel scary, but do it scared.

And eventually, like father said, like you said, father, um, it will become less scary, but do it scared even if you're scared and you're gonna find so much freedom that it's just so freeing and so healing, like you said, and one of the things I, I heard a one priest say is that when, when he hears someone come to confession and maybe confess some really difficult sin that, that they had committed, um, he just has admiration for them.

He's not like disgusted with them or anything like that. He has admiration that they have the courage to come and, and give God something that he, he didn't have that their hearts, their sins and things like that. So thought, can I second that motion please? I, I will second that motion of that priest. Oh my goodness.

Like there are some days where I go down to the confessional and I'm tired, but I walk outta the confessional. and I feel like doing cartwheels. Wow. Because, because that's as a priest, I think that's where I experience God's mercy and his heart beating. I mean, I don't hear it. I don't wanna say I hear the heart beat of Christ, but in some days it almost feels like his heart is pounding in there because like so many people are coming to, uh, the sacrament of penance in their brokenness, in their vulnerability and yes, when they open up their lives and they let me in, um, as a priest there and to have that, have that kind of, um, that realm where, where one is entering into just, uh, liberation, freedom.

Mm-hmm yeah. As a priest, I can, I can tell you that. I have come away and I say this, gosh, I, I know I've, I know I've said this to a person several times. I have said to a person in the confessional ma'am or sir, I was born for you. Hmm. If, if I, if I was a priest, just for you, literally just for you, then my life was worth living.

Then my whole existence matters because you know, the, the infinite mercy of God to, to, um, to be in that, in that place where, where God's mercy is, you know, showering down and liberating a soul from even perhaps decades. Um, it's sometimes it's been 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, um, even. Helped somebody recently, uh, there was a lady who called in to E w TN over the pandemic that could not get to church.

And she hadn't been the confession for over 70 years. I called a friend of mine in New York who I knew might be close to her. And he actually drove to her house, heard her confession, brought her holy communion, Joey 70 years. Oh, I mean, I get excited just talking about it. I mean, it's beautiful. The Lord is incredible.

Uh, he is far above our weaknesses. Incredible. And yeah, it's, it's amazing. You have the power, you know, obviously in your priesthood and Jesus gives you this power to literally break the bonds of spiritual slavery. It's incredible that you're freeing spiritual slave. So, so good. And one final thing on confession that we should move on.

I remember a quote from Santa Augustine, where he said that in failing to confess, I would not be hiding myself from you talking to God, but I would be hiding you from myself. Right. And so I think, you know, there's this fear of showing what we've done and just being vulnerable. And that holds a lot of people back there.

There's nothing that God doesn't know exactly. God God knows at all. So, so I would just simply wrap this up by saying to somebody don't be afraid that God already knows. God wants us to verbalize. I often get, tell, tell somebody when you go to the doctors and you have an ailment, you have to tell the doctor what the problem is.

You can't just say it hurts. The doctor's gonna say to you, where does it. Well, you need to say to the person, to the doctor, it hurts here. It hurts there. The doctor can't help you. If you keep on saying it hurts, you need to say it hurts in my elbow. It hurts in my neck and the same thing with confession.

And we need to name the actual what we've done the sin by approximate. We need to what the sin was. Approximate approximation. How many times, if we know how many times basically we're I like to say we're calling it out. Mm-hmm , we're calling it out. This is what I've done. We don't make excuses. This is what I've done.

And in that we're letting it go. Joey. we're we're giving it back to God. Wow. Being freed. Yeah. And that's what it's all about. It's about freedom and salvation is beautiful and incredible. Uh, you had so many good things to say about that. So thank you. I, uh, wanna get back to just the barriers that we experience when you come from a broken home.

And I'm sure people who don't come from broken homes, experience these things as well. But we've seen a trend in our apostle, in our ministry here that people who come from broken homes tend to struggle with these things and the, the, the first one. And I've dealt with this on a personal level. Is that so many of us feel abandoned by God?

Yes, we, we, we feel like he wasn't there for us, especially when we needed him the most. And I know in my life I'd ask him questions. You know, eventually when I started growing a little bit more in my spiritual life, getting closer to God, building intimacy with God, I would ask him like, God, why? Like, why would you let this happen?

God, where were you? When I need you. And honestly, father, I had to wrestle with those for years. Yes. And, and, and like you said, it's still a work in progress, but, um, I, thankfully I've been able to, to make a lot of progress by God's grace, but, um, this is a real barrier for so many of us. We just feel abandoned by God and therefore we'd want nothing to do with him.

What, what would you say to someone who's struggling with that particular barrier? I would say that God can take it. God can take your anger even to express that to him, to, to verbalize, to say, God, I'm angry, I'm angry at you. God will not strike you down. I promise you. Hmm. I promise you, God wants to hear from you.

God wants to you to verbalize your pain. I think the best form of prayer, if you will, is the Psalms themselves that we pray. Hmm. Uh, the Psalms of lamentation. When you go through some of those Psalms, those are the very Psalms that Jesus Christ, the son of God prayed himself. Joey, my God, my God. Why have you abandoned me?

Psalm 22? My God, my God. Why have you abandoned me? So why not? Why not take the Psalms the very, the word of God and make it your own literally. I mean, say it, say it to God, my God, my God. Why have you abandoned me now? I'm a big fan of the chosen. I don't know if you ever watched the chosen, uh, series. I haven't yet, but I know a lot of people love it.

It's it's amazing. Um, so one of the new episodes addresses this very question. Hmm it's um, the scene in, uh, the second season, I think it's, um, episode two in the second season of Nathaniel being underneath the fig tree and the Lord Jesus, and the gospels says to Nathaniel, I saw you when you were underneath the fig tree, remember mm-hmm and in that gospel scene, in the, in the show, in the chosen, they, that the way they played out that narrative was brilliant.

was brilliant. And what they were trying to get across to the viewer, to those of us who are watching is that God sees us. Nathaniel is calling out to God in this scene. He's like, if Lord do not turn your face from me, do not turn your face. And he's, he's thinking that God has abandoned him. That God doesn't see him, that God doesn't know his pain, what he's going through.

He's thinking that mm-hmm . But, but then very shortly after is when he meets Jesus of Nazareth. And Jesus says to him, Nathaniel, I did not abandon you. When you were underneath the fig tree, I saw you. And that's the moment of a epiphany that Nathaniel looks at Jesus. And he realizes like, wait a minute.

Like, no, literally nobody was around me. Nobody saw me. But, but you are the son of God in the scriptures that says this, you are the son of God. You are the king of Israel. So he realized then and there that Jesus was the Messiah. That God, the point is that God sees us, that God knows us. You know, I've definitely gone through that too in my life where, you know, I thought that God couldn't possibly identify with me, um, that God had abandoned me.

It's tough. Mm-hmm , it's not easy. Um, like you said, it takes years. I think when we grow in our prayer life, we, we tend to go through even desolation St. John of the cross would even put it this way. Something like this, that, uh, the closer we get to God, we are kind of blinded in faith because God is so close to us that we are our senses, our perception of him.

in the realm of faith. Like we're literally blinded if that makes sense, because he's drawing so close to us. I think that sometimes that's helpful for people to hear too, that God is, God is so close to you that maybe you, maybe you don't realize it because he's so close to you. Yeah. And that's so one thing I I've learned follow over the years is that when I would kinda wrestle with God, like you said, I would let out my anger and I would just ask him, like, where were you?

Cause I felt abandoned by you. Um, what I learned through, you know, a lot of prayer, spiritual direction silence is that he just wasn't there kinda watching from the sidelines, watching me get beat up, watching me suffer. He was right there in the midst of it with me. And I believe that beyond a shadow of a doubt now, like I'm so convicted by that.

And yeah, I think it's helpful to remember that. Um, sometimes another priest said this, he said, sometimes God's only response to our pain is his presence. Amen. And so he's there, even if we can't feel him, even if we can't see him, he he's often there silently working through the circumstances through other people to, to, to be the, for us to help us.

But we might not always see that immediately. One of the things that helped me, Joey, when my parents got divorced my first year of seminary and I was having those panic attacks, which thank God I, I, you know, I don't experience so much, uh, panic or anxiety anymore. Thanks me to God. I think as I get older, one of the prayers that I would often say is Jesus, I trust in you.

Jesus. I trust in you. I would take my rosary beads and I would just say it around the beads. Jesus, I trust in you. Jesus. I trust in you. I had to put my focus on him and not myself when I focused on myself and my own brokenness and the, my own whirlwind that was going around in my life. You know, I felt like during those years, that, especially that first year of seminary, I felt like I was on the boat with Jesus.

And he was at the helm of the boat of the boat sleeping mm-hmm and that I was like, screaming Lord, like I'm in this boat, wake up. like, I like, I feel like it's going to tip over, wake up. Yeah. But you know, the reality is like, like I've, I've come to experience also in my prayer life and my personal life that, you know, what.

I mean, God never sleeps. Obviously he knew exactly what was going on in that boat. mm-hmm and he knows what's going on in the, the listeners, um, listening. Now he knows your pain better than you do. God knew my pain better than I did. So I had to shift to focus from myself to him. If that makes, does that make a little bit of sense?

Um, yeah. Yeah, no, it does. I think when I shift it to him and to say Jesus, like, I, I, I can't trust. I need your help Lord, in order to trust, I can't trust because I've been relationships in my life have failed. Have been broken down. I feel crushed. Lord, how am I supposed to trust when I have all this happening around me?

when I've had this relationship falling, fallen apart in my life. I think that's where we need to lean on God to lean on our Lord and to ask him to restore that trust because he can restore it and to be patient with ourselves. Again, I need to emphasize that again, to be, to be very patient with our ourselves in this process.

That's great advice. Another trend that we've seen with people come from broken homes is that we tend to have. More distorted image of God. And I think all of us as humans have a distorted image of God, but for those of us who come from broken homes, we tend to think of God like our parents. Like we tend to project our parents' behavior, what they were like onto God thinking he must be the same.

What, what are some of the most common misconceptions that, that you've seen people have about God and, and how do you, how do we undo that? How do we, UNTW those distorted, that distorted image that we have of God, that's a great question. We need to bring those to God for healing, but at the same time, like you said, how can we bring those two God for healing?

If we have, um, a false image in our own mind, a false conception of the father, if we don't want to approach the father, it's definitely, like I said, it's a work in progress. And to ask for that healing, the Lord says in Matthew seven chapter seven, asking you shall receive. seek and you shall find knock and the door shall be open unto you.

I can't do it myself. I need the help of God. And also the help of other people. I think having good friendships definitely helps. Mm-hmm one of the things, um, I think that, you know, especially with, um, broken homes and broken relationships, there can be a, a whole facet of things that we're dealing with here.

Joey, we can deal there's there's things. Um, there there's the father wound, there's a false image of the father there's we can project on God, the father, our own image of who we think and know our own earthly father to be mm-hmm and that's really, uh, unhealthy. We can be afraid to approach God because of that.

And just, just the whole. The reality of having relationships, we can struggle with trust because our trust has been broken. And so it's hard for us to imagine ourselves trusting in a loving father when we've had our own father, not even come to remotely close to what we deserve. I've seen people having mother wounds in relationships, in broken relationships and, and that too affects our relationship with, with the Lord.

Yeah. I like to mention, you know, I know some maybe used to not, not, not used to hearing about, uh, the blessed Virgin Mary, um, and certainly the blessed Virgin Mary is not. She's not a goddess Catholics do not worship Mary in any sort or fashion or imagination. Um, she is the mother of God. She's a creature.

Godd is a creator. God is the Redeemer. God is the Messiah. The blessed Virgin Mary is a great model, but it shows to you that God gives us, you know, as Catholics, we believe in the community of the saints. Uh, we believe that we have friends in heaven that have lived this earthly life and struggle just as we have, and that are here, they're here for us to be our friends.

So I think that it can be helpful to in the spiritual life to bring in the lives of the saints. because the saints are not perfect themselves. The bless of Virgin Mary, obviously she was, you know, immaculate. She was perfect. She was, you know, without sin from the moment of her conception. So she is different in many ways, but the saints are imperfect.

The saints were made perfect by God's grace by God's help. And that's, that's where we enter into the picture, I think is we bring ourselves everything that we are good and bad, the mess that we are. mm-hmm we bring that into the realm of grace and we ask God to transform it, to unravel the mess. There's a devotion, our lady endure of knots, and it's a beautiful image of our lady taking these knots of our life.

That. We've we all have them, whatever they may be, but she's taking her hands and she's literally trying to unravel the knots in her life. And, and we as Catholics know that she's doing that by God's help by God's grace. There's nothing in our lady that she is doing for us. That is apart from God, everything that we understand that she is doing in our life is she is doing it with, with God's help in the realm of grace, you know, in the realm of grace, like our blessing mother, the Lord gives us a mother in the order of grace to, to mother us to bring us healing.

And I think that's helpful for some people that may have an experience of a mother. Who has hurt them. I'd like to bring that up too. Maybe there's, uh, somebody that has horrible experiences of their own mother. I, I don't, I, my mother is amazing. nobody's perfect. But I would say she is . My mother is near perfect, but you know, the Lord gives us our blessed mother, I think, in that realm of the communion of the saints, uh, to help bring us to Jesus.

That's the only thing I, I, I like to simply end the, this section by saying that our lady is transparent. She is completely transparent. It's not about her. It's about the Lord. So when you look at her, when you think about her, whenever you go to her, you're going you're, you're, you're going to Jesus. She's bringing you to the Lord.

So I think she can be very helpful in bringing you to Jesus. And also Jesus is the image of the invisible God. Ultimately it's in Jesus who corrects our understanding of the father. I think if I can say that. Yeah, no. So good. Jesus ultimately corrects our understanding of fatherhood of who God, the father is.

He reveals the father. So when we look at Jesus in the gospels, when we come to know Jesus, our whole conception of fatherhood is healed. Again, this, this is a lifetime of process. This is not, you know, we will always grow in our knowledge of, of, of the Lord and our love and, and are going to the father. But that's where somebody can begin is by going to Jesus and even going to the saints, going to our bless a.

So good. You hit on so many great points. One of the, a few of the things that helped me a lot when it came to kind of healing that distorted image of God that I had were some of the things that you just mentioned first off scripture, because just like if you had a bad, you know, a misconception about another person, like a friend, let's say, or a coworker, uh, one of the ways overcome that is by spending time with that person to see what they're actually like.

Yeah. Not just what you think they're like, but what are they actually like? And I know scripture's a perfect way to do that. And so, uh, drawing close to God through, through scripture, learning about him, listening to really his love letter to us that has been so helpful for me. The other thing of course is prayer, um, specifically to sacraments, but also just mental prayer, silent prayer, personal prayer speaking, you know, one-on-one with Jesus, like that has been so helpful, uh, for me in my life.

And then the last thing is what you mentioned the saints and to anyone who isn't Catholic listening, it can be kind of confusing, but we're basically talking about people who had such deep intimacy with God that he transformed their entire life to the point where they live lives of heroic virtue, right.

They just had the, these good habits in their lives. Their hearts, uh, tended to do what is good. And so their, their lives, them as individuals reflect who God truly is. And so we can learn through them what God is actually. So that, that has been so helpful for me, especially looking at modern saints, people who I can relate to a little bit more than maybe someone who was, you know, alive a thousand years ago.

Not that not to put them down. I'm sure they're awesome. But, um, but for me personally, that's been so helpful. And now at the same time, someone who did live a while ago, St. Joseph, and I remember a priest telling me once that if you struggle with that father wound, if you struggle going to God, the father start with St.

Joseph, because more than anyone, he best reflects what God the father's actually like. And so, um, through scripture, through maybe other books or resources that kind of dive into looking at the life of Joseph, uh, we can get a glimpse into what God the father's actually like. And man, if you do that, it is beautiful.

And it's not what you think. Because again, we tend to think that maybe God, the father is an identical person to our father, and that is not the case at. I wanna go into something very specific here about trust. So you mentioned this a couple times. Trust can be really difficult for those of us who maybe have that misconception of God.

We felt abandoned by God may maybe feel abandoned by God. And so we feel like it's impossible to trust him or to trust anyone. In addition to what you've already said, is there anything in particular you would add when it comes to learning to trust God? I think in drawing close to God, one of the things that helped me is Eucharistic adoration to draw close to God and to just let him love you.

That's one of the things that I think when in my own personal life, uh, my personal journey in coming to know who I was in God's eyes, that he loved me, uh, that he died for me, uh, that he knows who I am. It all kind of stems around and really flows from. When I would draw close to him in the blessed sacrament, I, I would re I would recommend spending time in quiet reflection and Eucharistic adoration.

And one of the things Joey, as I mentioned earlier about my, uh, being kind of the fast and furious in the cars and stuff like that, my life was very noisy. Um, I had not just a $4,000 car stereo system. I had all that, um, at a very young age, I had, you know, the cell phones that now the kids have smartphones and mm-hmm and the pager and all that stuff.

I had all that stuff back in 1995. So I was, wow. I was pretty ABO, uh, I was, I was kind of ahead of my days and doing all that stuff. I went from being immersed in like a noisy life, um, and trying to go and spend time in. Adoration or in the church with the Lord and I couldn't do it. I couldn't, there was, there was so much in my life that that was preventing me from that.

I would say this not just exterior noise, it wasn't solely about the exterior noise, the, the 4,000 hour car stereo system that I had pounding in my ears. But Joey, I had so much internal noise, so much baggage. That was just, I think, preventing me from trusting in Lord, in the Lord in listening to his voice.

And I think when, when you go to the Lord, just ask him in all sincerity Lord, you know, help me to trust in you, help me to unpack this baggage in my life. You know, I often tell. Couples that when they're preparing for marriage, that you need to help each other unpack in a sense, your life, the mess of your life.

Let's get it all out on the table now in marriage preparation so that we can deal with it. If you don't unpack it now, then ultimately it's gonna end up exploding later. Um, you can't stuff it in a closet, uh, for no one to see it's going to end up exploding. So we need to deal with our, with our wounds healthy in a healthy manner, by bringing them to God by bringing them.

And I would, and also like to say, not just to the Lord, but bring them to other people as well. One of the things besides your, your podcast, which, you know, I started listening to, I found out, um, not too long ago about it, so I, we kind of have a history going back. So it, it's kind of interesting that the Lord would bring us back together.

Um, yeah, I went to the holy land with you in 2014. So it's just, it's just interesting how God just draws all these lines. I know it's incredible. Yeah. I looked up to you a lot at and on that pal was great, but I, I went on a retreat with a group called life giving wounds mm-hmm and I would like to, to plug them to encourage the viewers, not just to listen to, to Joey's podcast and also anything that Joey has to offer on his, on his website.

And, but also a ministry that Joey's been involved with too called life giving wounds. I did a retreat with them, uh, during the fall of C. and to be honest, I wanna say that for me, that was one of the graces of COVID for me, one of the biggest graces was going on that retreat. And I was able to listen to speakers and people a lot like myself, mm-hmm , uh, people who are listening right now who have those same wounds, that same type of baggage from being adult, adult, child of divorce.

And it was so healing for me. So I might encourage you to, to look them up, to look at their website. They, they offer retreats, uh, throughout the year in person retreats and also, uh, retreats that are virtual. I think that could be a. Thank you for throwing that out there. Yeah. Dr. Daniel Melo, the guy who started it, he came on the, uh, the podcast in episode nine.

So if anyone wants to go back and listen, uh, about that, you can, that we talked a little bit more about the format of the retreat, kind of what happens on the retreat, just to give you some of an idea of what it would be like to go on it. So check out episode nine, if you want to, uh, to learn more about that.

And father, just in closing out the show. Sure. There's so many people who, who feel far from God, especially people who come from broken homes and they might not want anything to do with him. They might not be ready for all those God stuff that we're talking about, which I get like, like I, I get where they're at.

What would you say? Just a couple things. One, like, why is a relationship with God? So healing, why does it make our lives better? And what's that first step we need to take in order to, to begin that that's a great question. God draws near to us and he understands you. He understands, uh, your brokenness better than you do yourself, uh, better than your best friend does.

A lot of us are used to talking to somebody, uh, that we trust perhaps a, a close friend, and we might confide things to a close friend. But what about your maker? What about your creator? You know, I often look up, I've always been kind of a stargazer me too. As a child, I'd always look up at the stars, Joey, and, and I, I always kind of like Marvel, like, wow, like this is so awesome when I go to Hansville, it's amazing because it's not near the city and you can see the stars, like they're they're, they, they, they look almost close to you.

You can, you almost feel like you can reach out and touch a star. . You know, the reality is that, okay, God has created all of this. I look up at that. I'm like, God, you are magnificent. You have created all this and you're sustaining it right now, but I I'm worth more than what I'm looking. What I'm looking at.

This, this magnificent work of your hands, the stars, like each one of us is worth more than that. And that he, he knows me. He knows who I am and he knows who you are. And I think for you to realize that you don't need to be perfect in order for God to love you. You can come to him as you are. And God wants us obviously to grow in holiness and he will assist us in that journey.

He doesn't force us by any of the stretch of the imagination. He doesn't force us. To love him. Um, he gives us the freedom to love him, but I just wanna encourage our listeners that just draw close to God as you are, and be surprised, be surprised with what he'll do with that incredible father. Thank you so much for, for coming on the show.

Uh, what's the best way that people could follow you, connect with you if they want. I have no social media actually no Facebook or, uh, YouTube or, but I do, uh, in the Franciscan missionaries of the eternal word, my community has social media outlets, obviously. Uh, so they can go to Francisco, missionaries of the eternal word on Facebook, on YouTube.

And we put up all kinds of videos every week for people. A lot of people like our videos that we put up every week, Instagram Franciscan, missionaries on Instagram, and also, um, E w TN, obviously we are involved. Our, our ministry is a global ministry and we preach the gospel. That's our charism is to preach the gospel through the media.

Uh, that's our mission. And that that's, what's been entrusted to us. So, uh, for me to be on here with you is kind of, I feel like I'm at home. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's, it's great to have you. I hope you felt like you were at home and it it's so good to, to bring you on the show and it's been, uh, great to reconnect with you recently.

And I look forward to staying in touch with you. And, but before we close here, I just wanna give you the last word. Is there anything that you'd like to say in closing, uh, any encouragement or advice to, to someone who, who comes from a broken home who feels very broken, who feels stuck in life because of the breakdown of their family?

I've been there. I'm I am there. I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. I'm sorry for what has happened to you. I'm sorry for the wounds in your life, uh, that you may have experienced by the breakup of, um, your family, your mom and dad, but I can promise you that when you bring those wounds, To God that he can make something beautiful out of it.

He can make the most beautiful symphony out of a very tragic note. Um, it's kind of like a, when a discordant note is introduced into a symphony or a choir, that note can be like a wreck and can really shatter a symphony or a beautiful piece that a choir is singing. But God can start over on that discordant note on that ugly note, even.

God can make a beautiful masterpiece and he wants to make a masterpiece out of your life.

One takeaway from me from that episode was that often it's more difficult to let God love us than it is to love him. And so we really need to just let him love us, just let him see us. And so one challenge for you is just. To spend some time with God as you would with a friend. And this whole idea of prayer can maybe be foreign to some people.

But basically if God is all knowing if he is all powerful, then he knows your thoughts. He knows you, but he doesn't just wanna know you. He wants a relationship with you. And the benefit of being all powerful and all knowing is that you can easily communicate with him since he can hear you anywhere. And so this challenge is this, the exercise is this, just go to a quiet place.

This could be your closet. It can be somewhere outside, wherever, go to a quiet place, shut off your phone and just sit in silence for 10 minutes. Don't move at all. Except for your breathing. Just sit in silence. It's really hard to do. Like it's a good challenge. Try it. And then during that time you could just stay silent and just let God look at you.

Or if you feel like it, talk to. Tell him about the problems in your life. Tell him about the pain that you're experiencing. Tell him what's on your mind. Tell him what's on your heart. Tell him what's happening in your family, whatever you wanna say, tell it to him. And don't expect an audible response.

Something that you can hear with your ears, but know that he's listening to you and know that he's gonna try to find ways. To communicate with you that probably aren't gonna be very direct, but if you look for it, you'll see it. And we'll be talking about that more in other content. But one thing that's really helped me when it comes to praying to God or when it comes to just healing on a spiritual level is having a spiritual director.

A spiritual director is like a spiritual coach. And some of the benefits to, uh, having a spiritual director is they can just help you grow in your relationship with God. They can help you heal your relationship with God and just overcome some of those barriers that we've talked about. And so we're building a network it's not ready at this recording, but perhaps by the time you're listening to this, the network of spiritual directors is ready for you.

And so, uh, you can use our network. And these are people that we trust that we recommend people who are trained in spiritual direction, who can give you the help and the tools that you need to, to grow in your relationship with God grow spiritually. And this network's gonna save you a lot of time in helping you find someone who can direct you.

And so it's really easy. To to find a spiritual director, just go to restored ministry.com/coaching. Again, restored ministry ministry, singular.com/coaching. Fill out a form and then we'll connect you with a spiritual director. Once the network is ready to go again, that's restored ministry.com/coaching.

Fill out the form today. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministrydotcomslashfortythreerestoredministry.com slash four three. Thank you so much for listening. This has been a long episode. Appreciate you making it to the end. And if it's been useful for you, invite you to subscribe and to share this podcast with someone, you know, who could use it.

Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#042: What is Broken Can Be Repaired | Shenandoah Lawson

As people from broken homes, we fear repeating the dysfunction we experienced in our families. But sometimes, we end up going down that path. Our guest today dealt with that in a very real way. 

Years after her parents divorced, she found herself in the exact place she never wanted to be: Going through her own divorce, feeling so broken and empty. But thankfully, her story and her marriage’s story doesn’t end there. In this episode, you’ll hear how her marriage was rescued and more:

• What was happening in her head and heart as her marriage fell apart

• How she wrestled with depression, suicidal thoughts, and a bad relationship with her father

• How she felt like she was inadequate and didn’t deserve love

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• Article: My Parents Divorce Made It Hard for Me to Believe in Lasting Love

• Shenandoah Lawson

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  • Email: shenlawson@gmail.com

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

For people like us from broken homes. One of the biggest fears that we have is repeating the dysfunction that we experience in our own families, repeating the mistakes that we saw, especially in our parents' marriage. We just don't wanna go down that path. But the scary truth is sometimes we do.

Sometimes we end up repeating the same mistakes, the same patterns that we saw, even if we despise them, even if we hate them, even if we don't want to do that. My guests today dealt with that in a very real way. She came from a broken family. Her parents got divorced. And so naturally she never wanted to repeat that.

She never wanted the brokenness and the dysfunction to continue in her own life and in her own marriage. But years later, she found herself in the exact place. She never wanted to be going through her own divorce feeling, just so broken and really on the brink of. Now, thankfully her story and her husband's story, doesn't end there.

There's a really beautiful ending that you'll hear in the episode, but we don't just skip to that. We touch on the messy parts in between. And so what you're gonna hear in this episode is my guess she takes us inside her head and into her heart. As her marriage just fell apart, especially how hopeless she felt and what she did as a response to that.

She opens up about how she blamed herself for her parents' divorce and even dealt with depression and suicidal thoughts. She shares about her struggles and her relationship with her dad and how her family pretended that everything was okay when it really wasn't. We touch on the, the numerous ways that she struggled in her relationships because of the breakdown of her parents' marriage and family, how she felt like nobody would ever love her because she felt inadequate.

Like she didn't deserve love. She even said that she never wanted to really let anyone have power over her, whether that was a boyfriend or just a friend, she never wanted anyone to have power over her. And that came out in her actions. And she also just gives advice and encouragement to anyone out there who comes from a broken home.

And this interview is just so moving. It's so personal and it's really living proof. My guess she is living proof that it's possible to repair something that is very broken, so many great lessons, so many great stories in this episode. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host joy Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 42 and today my guess is Shenandoah Lawson. She is a, a wife, a mother, and a film producer.

She was born and raised in Southern California, but she currently lives in Ireland with her husband and her daughter, her and her husband actually own a small remote production company and they enjoy collaborating and creating together. And like I mentioned, this interview is very personal. It's very raw.

Um, it's kind of heavy at parts and some of you might even think during the interview, are you allowed to talk about this stuff on a podcast? The answer is yes. If we don't, who will, the sad truth is that children of divorce have been huge. Neglected for far too long, they deserve a voice they deserve to be heard.

And that's what we're gonna do here at restore. And there's someone out there right now who really needs to hear this conversation. They feel alone. They feel abandoned. Heck maybe they're even on the brink of despair suicide. So yes, for the sake of that person and for the millions of people like them.

Yes, we can. And we have to talk about this stuff. If we don't who. My guess is a Catholic Christian. And so in this conversation, you're gonna hear us talk about God and about faith. And so if that's not your background, as I usually do, I just challenge you to listen with an open mind. You're still gonna benefit a lot from this conversation, even if you don't believe in God.

And I'm so happy you're here. We obviously don't just exist for religious people. We exist for everyone, for people like you. And so really happy you're here. And I, I know you're gonna get a lot of this episode, so go into it with an open mind.

SHEO welcome to the show. Hi Joey. Thanks so much for having me. It's a pleasure to have you. My wife and I were talking about you yesterday. Actually we were saying that you have a beautiful name Shenandoah. Oh, it's it's awesome. Where did it come from? I'm just curious. Thanks. Yeah, it's actually, um, a river and valley in Virginia.

So there's actually the Shenandoah national park over there in Virginia. Yeah. And so, um, I. You know, funny enough when I, for work reasons, I lived in Virginia, I, you know, was right there right next to my river, basically the Shenandoah. Nice. Yeah. So, and it's that native American name? My there's several translations, but my favorite translation, that means daughter of the stars.

Mmm. Wow. Beautiful. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a very unique name and, and a beautiful name, like I said, so yeah. Such a pleasure to have you on the show, you were 12 years old when your parents divorced. Yes. Mm-hmm. if you would take us there, like what happened? How did you react to it? Sure. Yeah. So unfortunately, like my parents were those two people that should have never gotten married to begin with.

They only got married because my mom was pregnant with my older sister Sequoia, another unique name. so I love it. Um, yeah, so, you know, it was Rocky from the start. My father was very manipulative because my mom was at the time, not there legally. Um, he kind of threatened her into dating and then marrying him and all.

Kind of saying that he would take us away if they, if they, uh, divorced. And my dad had this very twisted idea of faith cuz you know, um, his parents, I guess you could say they were being Hispanic, they were culturally Catholic cultural Catholics, but they weren't practicing mm-hmm so he had kind of a twisted idea of faith and um, what he thought was right or wrong and you know, what he could go to hell for.

And so he kind of brought a lot of that, um, fear into the relationship and basically told my mom like, yeah, we have to get married, cuz if not, we're gonna go to hell . And so she did, she, she married him and things were always Rocky. Like they, they always were fighting when I was growing up and unfortunately.

Like, I guess they thought adopting would make things better, but it didn't, we, uh, they adopted three, my three younger siblings, uh, one of which has passed, uh, last year, unfortunately that was Tony in a motorcycle accident. Yeah. Thank you. Um, but yeah, so they ended up adopting and then things actually just, they got worse from there.

There was, um, abuse, you know, verbal and physical abuse that happened and things were just very bad. And I remember them sitting us down and telling us, like, we, we thought we were gonna get the op kids were, were getting a divorce talk and instead it was like, okay, um, well we're not getting divorced, but.

Dad is going to live in an apartment and you're still gonna see him almost every day, but, you know, we were gonna live with our mom and then our dad was gonna come over and, you know, see us and homeschool us because we were homeschooled. And, um, and so we're like, okay, that's kind of weird, but we were kind of relieved.

Like it wasn't like, okay, they're not completely divorced, but we're actually gonna get some peace mm-hmm and yeah, but then there was, I, I basically found out that my mom was starting to see someone else and I didn't know what to do, like as a Catholic kid. And we were kind of, we grew up volunteering at, uh, senators medical center at the time.

It was a hospital then medical center, basically with the CARite sisters. And, you know, so we actually grew up with a lot of. Instruction and knowledge about the faith, I would say. And so I knew as a kid, like, okay, my mom's seen someone else. My parents are still married. That's not wrong. I mean, that's not right.

So I, I went to my older sister and I'm like, look, I know this is what's happening. What do we do? Like, what do I do? How do I react? And she was just like, oh, well, like we have to tell dad. I was like, really do we have to? Okay. And that kind of set a chain of. To where basically then my parents were getting, uh, a divorce and then fighting over custody.

And that in itself was just a horrible experience, you know, having to go into a counselor and we had our dad telling us all the things that we couldn't tell her, because he was like, if you tell them that, then you're never gonna see each other again, they're gonna take you guys away from us. You're never gonna see your parents, you know, us, your parents again.

So it was just like, wow. Lies, lies, lies, and kind of a bit more about the lies was we were part of a church, uh, at the time, which a lot of my friends that I, you know, that I have or people I, I have met up and spoken with afterwards, they're like, oh yeah, I was, I went there. We went there for a short time.

It was basically this. I wanna call it a dysfunctional parish because there was just like a lot of hypocrisy there, which is sad because like, that's the thing I've seen is a lot of times the most hypocritical people are the ones who claim to be Christian and God fearing people. Mm-hmm . Um, and so we had friends from this church and.

You know, they would come over to our house. We had some really good family friends. And when my parents started, you know, separating at first, there was even lies around that. Like, don't tell them that we're separating and my dad would even keep like his shoes next to the bed for like, if they had to go through the room to, you know, go to the restroom.

And I was like that, that's how big the lie was. Like, we're even pretending at that point that my dad was still there. You know, mm-hmm and so. That was the biggest thing was just like being told and like to lie in this way or that way. And always having to like, be thinking about the lies because you had to get it right.

You couldn't let something slip to your friends, even, you know? So that was just like a horrible mind. yeah. A mind game, you know, as, as a kid growing up. And then when we, when my parents finally did, um, separate and my dad won the custody, then there was a continued physical abuse from my younger siblings.

And then it was just a lot of like, uh, verbal and mental abuse for my older sister and myself. So I ended up leaving my dad when I was 19. I went back to live with my mom and I kind of. Estranged myself from him. Um, I did try to make contact once and, you know, we started talking for a little, but then right away, it was just like toxic, um, all over again.

And so I was just like, I'm, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna put myself through that. And so, um, I never, I never spoke to him again. I just saw him at my brother's funeral. We didn't speak. And then, um, he actually passed away, uh, just a month ago. Hmm. Jen, I'm so sorry. Wow. Yeah. Thanks. You've said a lot. I mean, yeah, it's been, you know, it was hard cuz my brother was two, 2019 in November and he actually passed away just the week before I had to go into, uh, filming for the documentary I was telling you about.

So, you know, just had that right in front right before that big thing for myself. And so it was, that was difficult, but you know, I pulled through and uh, yeah then. Just kind of this whole thing with COVID I don't know. Can I say that word? yeah, it's just like that whole thing over here and just, uh, everything that surrounds it with not being able to go to church and then finding out like, you know, my, my birth father has passed away, which, um, I mean, I can't say that I felt anything, cuz I had just estranged myself for so long, but in a way it did bring peace, but then it also just brought a certain type of mourn for uh, knowing that I just wouldn't have, like my, my daughter would never meet my father, you know?

Like mm-hmm that, that was just a sad reality. Absolutely. And so it sounds like man, there's been so much happened recently in your life. That has probably brought up a lot of, um, the brokenness and a lot of, you know, past memories, but it sounds like things at home originally were just very dysfunctional to the point where something needed to change.

And, you know, I bet you and your siblings hope that there could be, you know, healing and like positive change there, but it sounds like that just didn't happen. So there was some sort of a relief by the fact that your parents separated and then later divorced, which makes sense. And I think a lot of people can relate with that.

And then maybe later on we realize, you know, we're able to see a little bit more clearly how dysfunctional things were at. And then able to kinda understand the impact, not only of the dysfunction, but also of the breaking apart of our parents' marriage. It's a lot to, to swallow. It's a lot to handle and then add in, you know, everything else that happens in life.

Like you, you know yeah. Have experienced in the past year. Yeah, exactly. And I guess the other thing just as a, a young adult, like, you know, I was going into my teens and then my young adults with, you know, my divorced parents. I mean, for a lot of kids that might seem more normal. Oh. But even just to be looked at as like, oh, that's the, the kid with whose parents are divorced, but being a Catholic kid with your parents' divorce was like, A whole different level as well.

Like there was a whole other level of feeling judged, especially by people at the church. Like in fact, people that we thought were friends stopped talking to us as a family. And so we, we ended up leaving that church just because, you know, we, we felt the, what felt like rejection and it was just because they didn't wanna get involved.

They didn't wanna feel like, oh, we're taking aside, you know, either my father or my mother. And so they just made their distance completely and we ended up yeah, just leaving because it was like an obvious kind of distancing that happened. And, um, a couple of the families that were at that parish, we were a part of ended up separating and divorcing also.

And it's just like here, all of our parents were having. You know, going on and none of them were talking about it to each other. I was just, I'm thinking back now. And it's like, imagine if, instead of trying to appear perfect and having it all together, if a little bit humility was had to open up to your Catholic friends, um, or just your friends in general and say, look, we're having these problems.

They could have turned around and been like, oh my gosh, we're having these problems too. And then talk about it. And then maybe things would've been resolved to where, you know, they all could have helped each other with their relationships to where they could have stayed together. So that, that's kind of the sad reality is that at least in that time and in that environment, Whether it was just at that parish or anywhere outside of there, you know, they didn't feel like they could open up and talk, which is why I think that, you know, this show is so great, like that you're actually allowing the conversation to happen.

Thank you. And, um, how these things yeah. Affect people and, uh, actually allow people to validate their emotions too, just because as kids, you know, you're, you don't, um, a lot of things happen, like you end up. Well, for instance, for me, I closed off from talking like opening up to either of my parents. Cuz you don't want to hurt one.

You don't wanna find, you don't want one parent to find out, oh like you told that to, you know, your mom, like why didn't you confide that to me? Absolutely. And have feelings hurt. So you just shut down and you know, that's just one thing that happens and that shut down, like the fact that you're shutting down.

It doesn't just affect, you know, your relationships with them. Like my relationships were then guarded ever since that point mm-hmm so, I mean, that was just, you know, one way that it, it affected me moving forward. Yeah, absolutely. It affected me in A's very similar way and I kind of always loved at arm's length.

One of my relationships, I I'm yeah. Convinced that it failed because I just was so distant. Like I just wouldn't be vulnerable. And that's what you, when you just said that about your parents and, and that small Catholic community, how they weren't vulnerable at all, they were just putting up this facade that everything was fine when everything really was not fine.

And what I've seen is that it's typically driven by shame. You know, this belief that there's something inherently wrong with us, that if people knew what was happening, they just wouldn't love us. They wouldn't accept us. And I've seen that left and right. Um, especially when it comes to brokenness within marriage and, you know, marriages that I knew.

And so, yeah, like you said, you know, vulnerability is the antidote to shame. And so if you're not being vulnerable, you're gonna still feel ashamed. You're gonna hide. You're gonna pretend like everything's fine when it's really not. And I have seen so much hypocrisy too, among Christians among Catholics.

Uh, who, again, pretend that everything's good. And then you realize there's been like multiple fears going on. There's been all these very messy and ugly things that could have been avoided if, you know, they asked for help. But, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I mean, also just feeling like a, like a bad Catholic, like I said, that the whole thing about feeling judged, like not only because we're a part of a family unit and so it's, it carries over, like, I think that's the other thing is, uh, parents think it's just between them, but it's like the whole family, the whole unit is judged and the children feel that, like, I felt that as a child, like totally, um, it was, you know, palatable just how you could kind of taste, uh, the judgment at times, you know?

And, and it carried on for me as well, even just being a Catholic, I always kind of felt like I was like a bad Catholic. Like I'm a different Catholic. I, I could never be as good as other Catholics just because this is like, this is where I come from. Totally. So it sounds like you carry around a lot of shame with you as well.

And man, that's so debilitating carrying that through the years. It was, and I'm no, I can relate with you on so many levels, especially just struggles in your relationship with your dad. I, there was a point where I just didn't agree with the way that my dad was behaving. And so I just told him, Hey, I'm not gonna be able to talk to you until I see some real change in your life.

And so it was like year, year and a half timeframe. So nowhere near as long as what you went through. But, um, yeah, it's, it's a difficult thing to have to do that. Like kids should never have to do that. We should never have to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Especially lie, you know, it's like, I think that was one of the worst things was ha um, being told, you know, this is what you're gonna say.

This is how we're gonna explain this. Like for instance, my, my dad had. Crap. Um, basically he pushed my brother's head into a plate and it busted his forehead open and we had to go around telling people that he had fallen off his scooter, you know, and that's what he got a gash on his forehead. And I mean, just like, yeah, things like that, you know, um, they, they affect a child like.

Telling, and that's why I always grew up like a hated line. And, and when I left my dad, like that was one of the biggest things it's like, I'm not gonna stand for, um, for lies and I'm, I'm not gonna lie. Like honesty is, is so important. And at least that's one thing that I've learned that I've carried into my relationship, my relationships now mm-hmm um, and I have to call some family members on it.

And when, when I catch them line, I'm like, no, no, I know you're lying. Like don't lie to me, you know? Yeah. Like I I'm okay. I'm okay with the truth. Like, it might not be what I wanna hear or what I completely, um, am in line with, but I would rather, you know, know you and talk to you with, with knowing that then have you go about lying to me?

Yeah. And eventually all that's gonna come to the surface anyway, in one way or another. And so mm-hmm, the painful truth. And now is better than, you know, just this whole mess of lies that comes out in the future. And yeah, there's this, uh, one guy that I look up to who it recently came out, that he was like having multiple affairs and things like that.

And it's just, it's, it's just so shocking and sad to, to see that, but that's where it all leads. It's eventually it's gonna come to the light and it's just so, so messy. Yeah, exactly. In the years that followed, how did you deal with all this? Like how did your parents' divorce affect you? How did the dysfunction, uh, affect you in the years that followed?

Right. Well, in the biggest way, I could definitely tell you it affected my relationships. Like I didn't date until I was about 22 and that was just circumstance. I was busy with like things that I pursued that I, that I loved and my parents' relationship really had an effect on me and how I viewed myself as being able to be loved.

and it didn't help that the first relationship I landed in, I didn't even wanna be in a relationship with this person, but he was basically saying, you know, you're never gonna find anyone who loves you as much as I do. And I was just like, gosh, maybe he's right. Maybe I won't ever find anyone who loves me, you know?

Um, may like maybe, yeah, maybe this is my last chance, you know? And so, yeah. Um, you know, I, I got into that relationship that was, um, yeah, that I didn't even wanna be a part of, but it was just that. That voice in my head of saying you don't deserve love. Like you're lucky to have it. And I think that also came from my dad often telling me, like, you, you cry too much.

You don't deserve to cry. Like you have it so good compared to other kids. And that carried over as well. It's like, I don't deserve this. I don't deserve that. Okay. Do I deserve to be happy? Maybe I don't. And so it carried into me getting into, you know, bad relat. And into not valuing myself enough and into, um, the false belief that, that I didn't deserve to have the things that I wanted most because I never had it.

You know, I, I wanted a family. I wanted that, that happy family that I saw, some of my friends having and funny enough, you know, yeah. Some of those families ended up falling apart too. Um, or sadly enough, I should say. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and it also led into like self-fulfilling prophecies, like, because I thought that way, like for instance, when, um, I was into dance for a while and I loved it and I really wanted to do it.

And my dad told me, you know, you don't have the body of a dancer. And it just like crushed me. Cause I was just like, you know, in my family we had, you know, bad knees, like my, you know, they just weren't, I guess you could say, yeah, like they're on the heavy side, at least my dad's side of the family, they were on, you know, heavy side have diabetes.

And so I started getting into dance and I was getting healthier and I, I was, you know, I wasn't a fat kid at that time and I was, you know, I was pretty chubby as a little kid. Sure. Um, which kind of affected me in other ways. And I look back and I do realize that I also was, um, uh, eating for comfort and I was also depressed.

I was chronically depressed, you know, as a young kid and that's just, you know, a whole other thing with that. But, uh, when my dad told me that like, yeah, you don't have the body of a dancer. We ended up winning a dance competition. We took Chris place for our cap, um, for our. Each group. Wow. And then the next rehearsal after that, um, I was doing some across the floor exercises and my knee just gave out and it just, um, yeah, it blew out right there.

um, during rehearsal and I wasn't able to even, you know, I was walking on crutches for weeks and then I moved onto a cane and I was just like my dad's right. You know, I don't have a body for this and I just kind of gave it up at that point. But you know, then once I left, like I still love dancing. I haven't done it in like an actual dance troop since that time, but, you know, uh, I, I still love dancing and, and I still do, especially.

With, uh, you know, my family or whenever we, we have the opportunity. Yeah. Wow. So there, it sounds like so many of the things that you learned in your family, you just carried with you through your life. And I remember reading the blog article that you wrote for ReSTOR. And one of the things you said in there really stuck out to me that you kind of always felt inadequate.

You felt like you needed to earn love based on your relationship, especially with your dad. And that one really hit me because I think so many of us feel that way. I, when my parents, uh, separated and later divorce, that was one of the feelings that I had. I couldn't put my finger on it as an 11 year old boy, but I just felt like I just wasn't good enough.

And then my reasoning was if I was why weren't mom and dad like working through this stuff. Mm-hmm . And so you articulated that really well. Talk about that a little bit, if you would. I think that, you know, you see it's so hard as a kid, not to. Think about yourself and especially think about yourself in the, in the full capacity of, of the family, which is a healthy thing.

Like we should be seen ourselves as a whole, like I said, as a family unit, when it's not just one person, you know, everyone's affected when something happens. Um, so as a kid, you know, when you're, when my parents were divorcing, you know, the first thought goes to, well, is it my fault? Is it something I did?

And then kind of like you said, you were just like, well, I'm not worth it for you to work things out, to pull it together to, you know, want. Us to all be happy together. Like, I, I'm not good enough. Like if maybe if I was better, if, you know, if I cleaned my room more, maybe you would not fight as much, you know?

And, and it's not, but, but that's, that's where my mind, you know, would sometimes go as a kid is like, gosh, maybe am I, am I lazy? You know, like if I, if I did more around the house, like, would it make, you know, mom less stress? And maybe she wouldn't have fought with dad, you know? Or they wouldn't have gotten into it because of this or that.

And, and it really like, it, it, things go around would go around and around in my head as to why. Because of me, you know, is this happening? And yeah, I think that that's when I could finally realize that, especially growing up and, um, finding out these reasons of why my parents were, would always fight so much.

Like we didn't know, it was just like mom and dad are fighting again. And we wouldn't understand, like, I couldn't tell you any of the dialogue that would go back and forth between them. Like, it just didn't make sense to me. Mm-hmm, why they would fight all the time. And then when I, you know, was growing up, was older.

And then especially when I moved back with my mom and then I started understanding and was told like, oh, this this happened. Or, um, you know, this is the reason between them like that, that they were fighting so much, you know? And, and so things started clicking and making sense, but they're not gonna tell you their personal problems as an adult.

You know, they're not gonna explain all that or be open about it to a child. So, you know, if they had. Like we said before, kind of had that humility to kind of open up about their faults. Like, Hey, you know, I'm not a perfect person. and I've made mistakes and sometimes you hurt a person. You know, sometimes you hurt people, even people that you love and you can hurt them so badly.

Sometimes that even though they forgive, you know, they can't really move past it. And that's where me and your mom are at. You know, if they had said something like that, that could have made more sense to me as a kid. Mm-hmm , but you know, when they just fight and you try to understand, and they're just like, keep out of it.

It's none of your business. Then you have to assume like, well, maybe they don't tell me because it's me. And like you said about the, having to prove yourself, like. It really was that it's just like moving forward, not wanting the same future, not wanting the same relationship that my parents had. I was just like, I have to do everything I can so that I don't fall into that same, you know, mess.

Like mm-hmm, I have to, you know, basically try as hard as I can in a relationship to, to be loved so that I can be noticed and valued. And, and, and I ended up giving too much, like too soon in relationships because of that. Sure. Um, and you know, it was just like, not even, um, Not even just emotionally, but just like even financially, I'd be like, well, I, I would have this thing go through my head where, where I would like, say pay for myself, even though it was like a date, I'd be like, well, no, I'm gonna pay this much because I don't wanna feel indebted to this person because, um, I, I don't want them to have power over me.

Like that was a thing that would go through my head. And that was just because you know, of my parents' relationship. And because I saw how both of them, um, seemed so trapped and I was just like, I don't wanna be trapped. So I'm gonna, you know, pay for myself with this. And I'll only let him pay for that.

And you know, that way, that way he can't have anything over me. And so, yeah, I mean, it really, I mean, the more I talk about it, I will definitely, you know, come up with more, um, reasons of how it affected me, but I mean, it, it's crazy. Just, uh, all the little things. Really stick to you when it comes to, to all of that.

And, and it came out in a bunch of little ways in return. Yeah. In the little ways. And that's, I think what a lot of people, especially who don't come from broken homes, maybe struggled to see it's like, if you just say, oh, there's just this little way that it affected me. Like one thing, even though it was like dozens of things, it might seem insignificant.

But when you put 'em all together, , it's, it's a lot, it's a lot to, and so, oh yeah. I'm tracking with you there. And one of the things you just said though, at the heart of it, it sounds like to me and you correct me, if I'm wrong here, a desire for control was kind of at the center of all of that, that you wanted to make this work.

You wanted to have the opposite of what your parents had. And so you were gonna do everything in your power. You were gonna control every factor that you could to make that a reality. Oh yeah. And that, that is exhausting. Isn't it? Oh, it is so exhausting. And, you know, like for instance, that first relationship, like he used to make fun of me all the time, um, about different things, because I would wanna have all the hard conversations up front and early, and he'd be like, why are you talking about that?

Like, who cares? How many kids we wanna have or are, are gonna have. And I'd be like, sure, well, it's an important conversation. Like we should be having that now. Sure. Um, if you're, if you're saying that you love me, like then there's only one way that that should end, which I would hope is in marriage. Um, unless you're just stringing me along.

And so, you know, I would bring up, you know, those harder conversations and yeah, I would basically get, get laughed at, I would get laughed at saying that I wanted to save myself for marriage. I would get laughed at for wanting to pray before meals. And again, it's just like, how did I get into that first relationship?

And it was just because I felt like maybe nobody else would love me. Yeah. And I think that's such a fear for so many of us, like there's hundreds and eventually thousands of people listening to this. And I know that those of us who come from broken homes, we feel that fear. And what happens, what they've found in the research, especially is that we are more likely to settle in relationships for people that we believe just won't leave.

That's like the only criteria that we go with and not, not that it's like someone who's ultra faithful that they won't leave, but just like, they're kind of just won't leave that's it? Yeah. Like, like maybe because there's no better prospect for them, they don't have ambition or something like that.

That's what some of the research has found. So it's just fascinating to me that we tend to settle because we're afraid that, like you said, no one else is gonna love. Another thing when it came to relationships is, you know, I had that first bad relationship. And then I actually, after I finally ended that relationship, I mean, overall, it was only seven months, so maybe that's not too long, but it was long enough for as bad as it was.

Sure. I actually got into a very beautiful relationship, you know, uh, it was kind of like long distance courting and everything, and that person ended our relationship. He said, you know, you're perfect. You're, you're beautiful. Um, you're all these things. I just, I lost my piece, you know, that's basically all that he could say.

And that just. Confused me to no end. I was like, okay. So I'm not good enough for the people who are bad for me, and I'm not good enough for, you know, I'm perfect, but you know, I'm perfect. But like where, where does this end? Like, is it always gonna be the case that even if a person values me and, you know, cares about me, that they are still going to leave me.

So am I ever going to find someone who is going to stay? And so that just kind of, um, set me down a whole other path of hurt and feeling inadequate. And I, I know he didn't mean to do that, but it was just, that's just where my mind took it, you know? And, and I just went down to thinking, okay, so basically my heart's never gonna be safe.

yeah, man. And we'd end up putting walls around our hearts and sounds like the message that you got from that relationship was you're too much. And you're not enough. It's like you're both and yeah. And not just that relationship, but all, both of your relationships. So, man, there's so much we could say there.

Um, you mentioned a little bit how you dealt with chronic depression and one of the things you did to cope with that was emotional eating. What were some other ways that you coped with the pain in the problems in your life and, and in unhealthy ways? Yeah, so I had, I developed, I guess, uh, an addictive personality because of just whatever the trauma I went through, you could say, and some of the things started off.

Okay. And some of the things just weren't ever okay. Um, at different points, uh, I've gone to alcoholism mm-hmm and that's just because of hurt and it also runs in the family, but same, sorry, I'm just getting a little emotional now. no, no together. No, you're totally fine. It is. It's an emotional topic. And a lot of times we.

Just kinda go through life with all this baggage, like all this brokenness that we carry with us, and then we don't really think about it. We don't really talk about it. And then we finally sit down and think about it and talk about it. And it does, it brings up some very strong emotions. And so no, you're, you're fine.

Yeah. I mean, yeah. We all feel that. So thank you for being vulnerable in that way. Yeah, no. Sure. So obviously, you know, I mean, luckily I could also kind of cut things cold Turkey. Like when I was in college, I was like addicted to diet Coke. And then it was just to the point where like, I just, um, I would have, I don't know how many cans a day and then it was really hurting my stomach and I was just like, you know what, I've gotta cut this.

And I did. And then, um, I got addicted to sports, uh, sport, um, Brazilian jujitsu, and I actually ended up then losing a lot of, uh, weight that I had. Gained from, uh, being addicted to food. And so, um, that was making me feel really good, but then I was just overdoing the training. I was training six days a week.

Um, and then I was wow. On some days training as many as three times a day. And so I was just kind of putting my body through so much, you know, I was starting to break down in, in different ways. And so, you know, it's, that's when a good thing can become a bad thing, , you know sure. Like too much of a good thing is a bad thing.

And I progressed very quickly with that just because I was doing it so frequently and so hardcore, but then, you know, the, the alcoholism was something that just kind of, um, every hard point or loss or, you know, ending of a relationship would kind of bring in this. This defect, uh, in, in me. And luckily I, I could always get out of it.

You know, when I had some, I would have to really focus myself, like, okay, this isn't helping me achieve my greater goal. What do I really want in life? And, you know, prayer was always like the biggest thing that would get me through, especially when I reached about 25. I just really kind of started playing the rosary every day and that was life changing.

And that actually helped me get out of my, you know, alcoholism, streaks. Beautiful. Wow. Incredible. And so you were basically in those things, you were looking for comfort, you were looking for an escape from the pain and the problems in your life. Whenever that message they would surface and approval approval mm-hmm

Yeah. And, and it was because I was just getting, you know, told how good I was getting like at, at different things, you know, when it, when I was dancing or when I got into acting or when it was jujitsu, like I would progress in, in these things because I would just, I always put. Everything into, into something.

And unfortunately, you know, when I do good, I do really good when I do bad. I do really bad. yeah, no, in between it's a, yeah. Not a lot of in between. Yeah. Wow. No, and, and that's, that's a great point about how too much of a good thing. Isn't good. It's bad. That's yeah. You know, even Brazil and jujitsu is like an awesome thing.

It's good to learn how to defend yourself. It's good exercise, like you said, but you took it a little too far. So man, so many lessons there on the flip side, what would you say were two or three things that really helped you cope in healthy ways and helped you heal? You already mentioned prayer. Uh, were there other things as well?

Yes. So, um, in an interesting twist, my husband and. We were actually married a couple years ago and we got divorced and, um, through a lot of prayer and therapy, we both ended up going to therapy. He got back in touch with me after, um, a year that we were separated and, you know, he came back realizing his, uh, his mistakes and saying that, you know, it, it was supposed to be me all along.

And we were actually, uh, able to talk through everything. You know, we, we wanted to make sure like that this wasn't just feelings that we were going back on, that we, we were missing each other for the right reasons. Mm-hmm and that are core reasons for the reason why we had gotten married before were, um, for the right reasons and that we were getting back together for the right reasons.

And it was only, um, When we started talking again, that I realized that he, that he told me that he was going to therapy and I was just like, oh, well, I'm, I'm going to therapy also. Wow. And so that was a big thing for, for both of us. And it was a Catholic therapist and that was very helpful for me because I could have somebody kind of from, uh, who viewed.

The sacrament of marriage, the same way that I did kind of giving me instruction and, uh, helping me through that extremely difficult time. And so I, I really would recommend therapy to, to anyone. Um, if you're a Christian find a Christian therapist, you know, if you're Catholic, Catholic, I think that having somebody that's not family that can give an UN bias.

Um, opinion, um, is so helpful because, you know, if I go to my mom a lot of times she'll be like, oh, you're, you're such a good person. Like, compared to me you're so smart. Like, um, I know you'll, you'll pick the right thing. And it's like, well, that's, that's not necessarily what I, I need to hear. Like, I wanna hear some, some good, helpful information.

I need some guidance, some, uh, yeah, I need guidance. And I went to therapy when, when we got divorced, cuz I was just, I had fallen down a whole alcoholic path again and I was just depressed. I felt like I was gonna go insane. My heart was, you know, ripped out of my chest and that, that really helped having a therapist telling me, you know, what, read.

Write this out, evaluate these things, put back into perspective, how you're gonna rebuild your life in these ways. And yeah, I mean, it was just, it's what I needed. And when I went looking for a therapist, I was recommended this one person and he, his normal, I think therapy is not cheap. I will say that, but when I, I called and explained my whole situation, he was just like, wow, I can tell you really need this.

So I'll make you a deal. If you come every week for eight weeks, I'll cut my price in half. And that was amazing. God also, I was like, okay, like the, yeah, this is what I need. And so, yeah, I would definitely recommend getting therapy, uh, help. Yeah. Prayer was important. Also finding or having, um, you know, one friend or family member that you can really just lean on that can accept you completely, no matter how broken you feel.

I, I think that those things are really important, important, great advice. And I've found so many of those things to be helpful as well, man, that, yeah, the divorce I did know about that. And I remember us chatting a little bit about it on, uh, on social media and you've been through so much and I'm just, I want to go back to the Shenandoah who.

Going through that mess in her life. Like what was going on inside of you? Like, if that was me, I would imagine that there was just so much inside of you that was like, see, you couldn't make it work. Like you couldn't do it exactly. Like you repeated a mistake that you swore you wouldn't do. Oh God, take us in your heart.

Take us in your head. What was going on? Well, it was just, first of all, the reason why it was just like, yeah, here I am. Again. I'm not enough. I, I was good. I was, I was even great. I was perfect in all these ways, but just not good enough. Mm-hmm and feeling crushed because of that, thinking that the person who, who thought you were good enough, good enough to, you know, propose good enough to, to marry you then decides no, actually, you know what you weren't, you know, and mm-hmm, , it just crushed me.

I felt ugly. I felt like. All of the hard work. Like what was the point? Why, why, why was I even a, why was I even trying to be a good person? You know, what did it matter? It's not gonna make me happy. I know bad people who are happier than me. I was thinking, you know? Yeah. And I just remember once I got past the initial shock and hurt, although you never get past the hurt, like the hurt.

Um, I mean, even to this day, like even when I look back on some of the pictures, when we were together before that breakup, like it still brings back some of the hurt. Like some of that doesn't ever go away, you can just try to love more each. and, but like you said, like I was just going around and around in my head, like, oh my gosh, I've tried so hard.

I swore I was not gonna become part of that statistic. You know, of mm-hmm how many people get divorced? You know, every, you know, out of how many couples that get married, what is it like 50% get divorced? And I was just like, that's not gonna be me. I'm gonna have all the hard conversations. I'm gonna pray every day.

I was praying for my future spouse since I was nine years old. And I was just like, really God, really like all of those years of prayers and what did it get me? Like, like, I wasn't even good enough for God to listen to. Mm. And yeah, it was just E I was realizing like, when I think back. Just all the different steps that I, I had taken.

So basically when that happened, when, when we did end up splitting, I was so broken, I really did just kind of give up for a little bit there. And that's why I ended up going into therapy was I was having suicidal thoughts and mm-hmm , you know, like I said, I was drinking so much. My kidney was hurting and I just knew I had to do something otherwise, like the part of me knew, like I deserve a good life.

Like I deserve to be loved and I know God loves me. And I don't wanna say that that's not enough, but it's, you know, it's not gonna, it's not gonna give me children, which I always wanted, you know, which is why. I know I'm my daughter is such a blessing now because she represents how much I am loved now.

So I, I will say that, but, um, yeah, it was just the darkest part of my life because it was my, my worst nightmare had come true. Yeah. And I can't imagine the feeling of hopelessness and despair. And like you said, it drove you to the point of considering suicide. And to be honest with you, it makes sense.

Like, it makes sense, given what you went through, given what happened, it makes sense that you got to that point. It makes sense that you fell into alcoholism. It makes sense that you just wanted to give up. Um, but it's amazing. You didn't, and that's just so inspiring because as you probably know, people like us who come from broken homes, like we're statistically more likely to get divorced ourselves.

Yeah. And, and so, like you said, we don't wanna become the statistic, but it is a real dangerous, real fear that all of us have and you live through that, but you didn't stop there, which is so amazing. So take us to that journey as well. You said you guys both went to counseling, uh, started talking again.

What happened after. like I said, I kind of, I was going to therapy or, and I had just finished my eight weeks and I was actually, um, seeing someone else. Um, although for me it wasn't like, it wasn't serious for me at that point. Mm-hmm I was just like, you know what, I'm just gonna do whatever helps me not hurt right now.

I had even gotten a van and I did a whole van conversion and it was my, uh, I was gonna be leaving to go to Colorado. I thought and then I ended up getting sick. I ended up going get, uh, I had to go to the hospital and it was an emergency that they had to remove my left ovary. Cuz I found out I was stage four endometriosis and I was basically gonna go into septic shock if they didn't remove my ovary, which had just exploded.

And um, And so I was in there for about a week and you know, my now husband, he, he ended up, we had actually run into each other once before he knew this place that I would, um, go to. And so he went there and we kind of talked, but I was just like, you know what, I'm going to be leaving soon. And, you know, once I know what I really want, then, you know, maybe we can end up talking more.

But, um, in my mind, like at the time I wasn't really. Thinking like, yeah. Am I really gonna give this guy another shot? You know, after, um, it had sent me into so much hurt and pain that I was still going through. Yeah. And so then, um, I was in the hospital and he came and he visited me in the hospital and he said that he was fasting for me.

He, he, as it turned out, he didn't eat for three days. Um, because he was so worried about me and he was, um, purposefully fasting for me, which meant a lot. And we were talking a little bit just through messaging and I said, you know, I'm gonna go and take this job over in Virginia. And, uh, once I healed up and so I did, I went and we were just, um, talking through messaging back and forth mm-hmm and having all of the.

You know, I wanted all of my, an my questions answered as to why things, you know, uh, didn't work out as to why he had done the things he had done and why he had, you know, hurt me basically the way that he had. And, you know, I, I, we cleared a lot and I was just open about, you know, again, how I wanted to have a strong spiritual life, how I wanted to have, I basically listed out all the things that I wanted in a spouse again.

And if you don't feel that you can meet up to this, then I don't think things are gonna work out. Um, I had already gone through the whole process of having the. A enrollment that you have to have. It's like a, it's not like the full en enrollment process, but it is called a lack of form. And it's where we had, um, gotten legally married and in the Catholic church, if you get legally married, um, and then divorced without getting married in the church, then you, um, have what's called a lack of form.

So I had already finished all of that process as well. And it was just like, uh, that was such a painful process in itself. And, you know, not to, not even to mention, I had to have my mom go with me to the courthouse when I filled out the divorce papers, you know, which was six, six, uh, what was it? Six months after?

No less than that. Gosh, like I'm getting my. You know, when things are painful, you kind of push it out of your head. So my timeline absolutely get cross, but in any case, it was very soon after we got married that then I was going with my mom to get, you know, divorce, um, papers and everything. So, um, yeah, just having to, to go there and, and telling him all the different things that, you know, I had to take upon myself.

And basically I got all of, all of my anger out, like all of my, my pain out on, on the table for him. Mm-hmm and, um, you know, all, all he could do was say how, how sorry he was. And that basically he knew he had gone down and very bad road spiritually as well, just where he, you know, he had been going and having, he had a lot of doubts and, um, it, he had fallen into just being vain and selfish and he.

Went and got counseling. And he just realized that he, um, he wasn't the person he wanted to be. He wasn't the person that he, that he was when we started dating and, you know, to an obvious degree, like even his family over here in Ireland, they all noticed that he was changed. And so, um, it was just one of those things where a person gets kind of, um, off track in life and kind of scared and kind of rebels.

Or sure or rebels in a huge way. And that was what he was going through. And his answers basically long to make a long story short, not going into too much detail, his answers and his proof were good enough for me. And also we were saying novena individually, but we say the same novena, you know, together.

To St. Joseph. And, um, I had also said when Novin to St. Anne and funny enough, like the day that I finished that Novina, this was back when we were still separated that day. He texted me. And so I was just like, whoa, that's kind of weird. And so then, you know, um, just kind of moved forward from there, uh, with his bump, with his showing up where I was going and then asking if he could see me again.

So it, it all happened after that. Novina and then, you know, we prayed Novin together and just, I live by. The prayer and the saying that God makes all things new. Hmm. I would repeat that again and again, and again, mostly about myself, just feeling so broken, like, but God can make all things new and, and knowing that he can make mean new.

And I definitely believe that also for, you know, for other things and relationships, if it's meant to be, you know, if that there can be healing if, if it's wanted by both people. And if it's a healthy love, basically mm-hmm , um, that you both want the, the best for each other and basically help each other go to heaven that you, you both want to.

Have the best life and make the best life for each other, then God can make all things new. Like no relationship is gonna be perfect. But I think that, you know, the other thing that I've taken out of all of this is that communication is just so important. Like if I'm frustrated, you know, I let him know yes.

And, uh, I say what I expect and you know what, I feel that I'm, I'm not getting the help that I need, then he can step up and, you know, if he's, if he's, um, feeling the same way, then he, he can talk to me and we're just very open. And I that's one of the things that, you know, I had said that I wanted, I just needed, I never wanted a fight.

I, and we haven't fought, you know, we've never yelled at each other, you know, which is, it's so important to me in, in our relationship. You know, we, we can talk things out and. I think that, you know, if everybody can just get to that point where even if it's embarrassing, even if it's uncomfortable, if you can just say what's on your mind and heart, knowing that the person you love that person, they love you.

And that that's enough that that will keep you together. As long as you can be honest with each other, then God love you. That's that's the way to go. Beautiful. Wow, incredible. So then you guys got remarried then and you got married in the church at that. Well, we're actually our whole, um, our whole plan was to get married in the church here and then COVID hit uhoh yeah, yeah.

Little, little detour there. Little detour. Yeah. So we, we got married again. Beautiful. Right before we left in December. And then I came over here first. Um, cuz we had bought different tickets over here. Uh, funny enough before we even knew we were going to get married again because his niece, one of his nieces is my goddaughter, so I was gonna come over.

For Christmas regardless to visit her and the family. Yeah. So he, he made, he got his tickets for another time. So we were both gonna end up here at some point together in, in Ireland. Funny enough. But, um, wow. Yeah. So we're like, yeah, we're gonna get married, you know, legally there in California. And then we will fly over and we'll get married in the church there in Ireland and yeah.

Then, uh, COVID happened and every, yeah, everything changed. Crazy times. Okay. No, that, that all makes sense, so well, beautiful. You guys are together again and that's, so it's just such an inspiring story. I admire you. I admire your husband so much to just thank you. Yeah. Fight through all that and to fight for each other and to, yeah.

Just push on. And man, it must have taken so much, um, humility and so much vulnerability and forgiveness, um, to be able to get to where you are today. So I, uh, I admire that so much. Absolutely. Thank you. And it's a work in progress. It's it's daily, you know, wanting to love that person more daily, forgiving that person on a daily basis at times, you know, like, luckily I'm, I'm kind of past that stage, but I had plenty of times that, you know, I just had to.

Go into my heart and mind and be like the only way I'm gonna be able to live without fear, fear of being hurt again, is if I truly forgive and have trust and that trust is going to be, you know, out of faith, but also, you know, proving himself daily. And basically both of us proving our ourself and our love daily.

And it just has to be that way. It has to be every day you wake up, you have to make a decision that this is what you want and that this is what you're working for. And, you know, all of everything will align with that. If that's the, uh, the mentality that you're having. And I know that that's definitely not the mentality that, uh, my parents had.

And yeah, I really think that that's made all the difference. Yeah, you can grow, you can change, you can heal just those things alone. Just understanding that you can do those things is life changing. It's amazing. So you're living proof that it's possible to repair something that is very broken and, and I love it.

I love it. So thank you for sharing your story. Uh, speaking about being a work in progress, if you would touch on a little bit how your life has transformed since you know, years ago to where you are now. And like you said, things aren't perfect, but you are in a different spot. I mean, I'm at the spot now where I would never suffer abuse.

Like I have the strength now to where I can go, you know, I would look for, um, someone to help me heal, be it therapy or a friend. Someone to talk to. Um, but also I have the strength to just step away or get away from whatever type of abuse that had that strength that I didn't have as a kid or a young adult mm-hmm

And I have just a lot more confidence now that I won't make the same mistakes that my, that my parents made. You know, it was like a fear that hung over me that, oh my gosh, I'm gonna do what they did. And like, what if I just end up being unhappy with someone for the rest of my life? Or what if, you know, I end up taking it out on my kids.

Like, I, I don't even think about things in that way anymore. Cause I have confidence now that. Me the way I focus on, on love and just loving, loving my husband, um, loving my daughter the best that I can each day. If I come from, um, from doing things from the aspect of love, then I don't have to worry about all of that because that those other things they were lacking love.

So if, if love is the core of what I'm doing and how I'm doing things then, well, it's like how they say God is love. And if God's in everything, how can it go wrong? Beautiful. Beautiful. And I, I think it's so appropriate that now you guys have a baby girl, who's really the kinda incarnation of your love that you had.

To work you had to fight for, you had to work through. And, uh, I think it's just so beautiful and she's lucky to have you both as parents. Oh, thank you. Yeah, her name's Arwin Emery Arwin Emery. Beautiful. Beautiful. And I just wanna give you a chance now to talk with everyone listening. Um, especially those people listening who come from broken homes, who mm-hmm may maybe they feel broken.

They feel stuck because of the breakdown of their own family, their parents' marriage. Uh, what, what encouragement, what advice would you give to them? Yeah, I, I would say that your, your parents' mistakes don't define you and that God can make all things new and don't be afraid. do not be afraid to make your own mistakes.

I. That that's, you know, a fear that we all have. Like, we don't wanna make any mistakes, but mistakes will be made guarantee. You know, it's just, if the focus is on the right things, which is, um, living a good life and you, you know, that you are worthy of being loved, then you know, if you know you're worth, then other people will know you're worth and you have to make your worth known and just not accept less than you deserve.

And you have to be, maybe some people have to be more vocal with it. And some people maybe have to find ways to remind themselves more often of it, but truly knowing that you are loved and that you deserve to be loved. I think that's one of the biggest things that has helped me as well. And yeah, just your other people's mistakes.

Don't define you. Beautiful. If people wanna connect with you, what's the best way to do that? Yeah, sure. Um, she Lawson S H E N L a w S O N. gmail.com. That puts my personal email. And yeah, if you have any questions, feel free to, to hit me up there. Jen. Thank you so much. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your vulnerability.

Um, it's, you're a brave woman for coming on, like telling your story because so many people, as we discussed would rather keep this stuff quiet. And so thank you for, uh, for doing it in a way that was also, um, respectful of the people involved. Um, I know, you know, it's not always easy to, to do that and sometimes, um, it's a difficult balance to talk about the brokenness in our past.

And so thank you for, for trying to hit that balance. I know it's a difficult thing to do that I sometimes struggle with as well, but thank you for sharing and for, um, just being such a beautiful example of how we don't need to repeat the brokenness that we saw in our families. Absolutely. No, thank you so much for having me.

And I, I hope, you know, even if it helps one person, then yeah, then I'm happy to share.

This is so beautiful. When I was listening to that interview before we published it, it honestly made me tear up. It was just so moving. So beautiful, such a great story. And there's so many lessons in it. One of the lessons that I took away is that even if you stumble, even if you fall, you're never too far gone, you're never out of the fight.

There's always hope to redeem your story, to redeem your life. And like she proves to even redeem your marriage. You just have to be willing to ask for. And be willing to put the work in. And so if that's you right now, if you are struggling in some way, I just want you to know that we're here for you. You are not alone.

We'd love to hear from you. And one way that you can do that one way that you can reach out is by sharing your story. We wanna hear your personal story. And some of the benefits of doing this is that it's actually healing for you on a neurobiological level. It makes your brain healthier to reflect on your story.

And there's been studies that have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed. They're less anxious, they're healthier, they're happier and so on. And if you share your story with someone else, someone who can listen with empathy, that's also healing on a neuro biological level.

And so your story beyond just helping. It can also help someone else. It can give them guidance and give them hope who maybe are struggling. Maybe they come from a similar background that you do in your story, can give them the guidance and hope that they need. And so if you wanna share your story, it's actually really simple to do it first, go to restored ministry.com/story again, restored ministry.com ministry singular slash story on that page, fill out a form quick form, tell a short version of your story, and then we'll turn that story into an anonymous blog article.

And so we would love to hear from you. So share your story with us today. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 42. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been helpful for you in any way, I invite you to subscribe. So you can hear more and be sure to share this podcast episode with someone that you know, who could really use.

Always remember you are not alone. We're to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#041: How to File the FAFSA if Your Parents are Divorced or Separated | Alex Driscoll & Mike Rossman

Statistically, children of divorce are less likely to attend college. Further, they’re less likely to receive financial support from their parents for college. 

To pay for college, most young people apply for government aid by filling out the FAFSA. But if your parents are separated, divorced, or remarried, the process can seem confusing. 

Today, we speak with two experts to offer guidance on:

• How to answer certain FAFSA questions depending on your parents’ marriage

• Myths to watch out for 

• Practical tips that are difficult to find on Google

• A video and infographic that’ll make the process simple for you

Watch FAFSA video

View infographic

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

You've probably heard us say that children of divorce are less likely to go to college to continue their education. Statistically, why is that primarily because they're also less likely to receive financial support from their parents for college in the first place. And why is that? I think one of the reasons is that divorce is very expensive or at least it can be, I know families that have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in attorney fees.

I kid do not. It's. And so young people and, and parents are left figuring out how to pay for college and one obvious way to do so in the United States, at least is to use a government financial aid, getting government grants or loans by filing the, the FSFA the free application for federal student aid.

But if you've never done that, it can seem complex and confusing, especially if your parents are recently separated, divorced, or remarried, that adds a. Of confusion to the process. And so in this episode, we're gonna tackle that problem. We're gonna make the process simple. We'll be answering some of the most important questions for parents and young people from divorce separated or remarried families.

And so whether you're a parent. Who's searching for answers for your child, or maybe you're a young person, a student who's heading off to college. This is gonna help you a lot. What you're gonna get out of this episode is we're gonna talk with two financial aid experts and they give their advice on how to answer certain questions on the application, on the FAFSA, depending on your parents.

Marriage situation. We also touch on some myths that you should watch out for. They give practical tips that are gonna be difficult to find on Google. You really need to talk to someone who knows their stuff in this area. And then at the end, we give a, a video and an infographic that'll make this process, especially if you're someone who's coming from a broken home and.

It maybe happened recently where your parents separated or divorced, it's gonna make the process much simpler for you. And by the end, you're gonna have the knowledge that you need to apply for financial aid. Hopefully get the funding that you, or maybe your child needs so that they are, or you can continue your college career.

And so keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host. Joey Bonelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 41. And today I have the pleasure of talking with Alex and Mike two experts in the field of financial aid.

Alex Driscoll currently works as assistant director of financial aid at Russell Sage college. In Troy, New York on a typical day, she helps first time freshmen and transfer students to better understand the financial aid process and the awards that they're eligible for. Alex graduated from the state university of New York at Albany with a bachelor's of science and political science and a master's in educational administration and policy studies.

She currently lives in Troy New York, where you can typically find her perusing, the farmer's market or kayaking in the Hudson. My other guess is Mike Rossman. Mike works as a financial aid assistant at Russell Sage college in Troy New York. His passion is to help students better understand the college experience and to build life skills that will translate to successful future careers.

My graduate from Sienna college with a bachelor's degree in psychology and from the college of St. Rose with a master's in college student services administration. He lives in New York with his wife, Kelly. And so again, I'm really honored to have these two experts on this process. Join us today to hopefully answer your questions and to make the process simple.

So here we go,

Alex and Mike, thank you so much for coming on the show. Yeah, of course. Happy to. Thanks for having us, but I wanna, I wanna dive right in. So you both are experts when it comes to financial aid. And so there's so many people out there who, who need this guidance. That the first question is really basic.

When someone goes through this financial aid application process, uh, how long does it typically take to actually fill out the whole form? So for new students that are filing for the first time, Joey, um, it usually takes about an hour or so. Uh, for some people it could take a little bit less, some people, it could take a little bit longer.

It really depends how much information they have to put in. If they're using both of their parents. Different parameters there for people that are renewing, um, or doing it the, the second, third, fourth time around, usually more like a half an hour, cuz most of your information already imports in when you start.

Okay. That makes so much sense. So it really depends if you're first year are coming back again. And probably also, if you need to gather information from different people or different sources that could make it a little bit longer in some. Yeah, that's, that's the one thing that really takes a while, especially if you need to get specific tax information for your parents, um, or even tax information for yourself, if you had to file.

Um, some of that can take a little bit of time to request if you don't already have it. Every, every situation is different, but for the most part around an hour for new people in half an hour or so for renewals. Great. I, I do wanna mention it does have a safe key. So if you did get like halfway through and realize that you're missing some paperwork that you need, um, as a safe key so that you can leave the Faxon pick it up at another time when you have your P.

So it doesn't have to be all done in one, in one sitting, basically I feel bad for anyone. Who's not realized that and they filled out the form and almost gotten done and then just closed it out. That is a great feature. Thanks for mentioning that. Mm-hmm so when it comes to the actual FAFSA, uh, what kind of questions are on there?

When it comes to your parents, paint a picture, if you would, in people's minds of what exactly they're gonna be answering. All right. Sure. So, um, it's going to ask for at least one of your parents information, including their, uh, date of birth, possibly their social, uh, first initial, last name it's going to ask for, um, their marital status date.

If they're divorced or married, um, or widow. And it's going to ask for their tax information as well as investment information, um, and other banking information. I see. So definitely something that you wanna do with a parent or at least have them available to answer questions. If you're a student who's trying to fill this out on your own, it would be pretty difficult, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Even if you have your parents' taxes, um, for a student, it can be really confusing to kind of try to decipher that and put that information into the FAFSA. That makes sense. Maybe unless there's some budding account. Accountants out there, accounting majors who, uh, like going through taxes, but I think that's probably not most of us and the tax information too.

Joey is based on two years prior to when you're filling it out, which makes it even more, a little bit more confusing than it originally would be. Um, cuz they're assuming that everyone would've had their taxes done two years before. Um, and some people might not have the current taxes done. So they used two years prior.

Yeah. That is, that is why they switched to the two years prior is because a lot of people didn't have. There one year ago taxe is done. So in this case, it be your 20, 20 taxes. A lot of people don't have those completed yet. Got it. Okay. That's really helpful because you could start the process and then be sitting there and like, well, I need to file my taxes first, which isn't a simple task for a lot of people, right?

Okay, great info. So I, I, I think this is all making sense. I wanna go into some different scenarios for different people who maybe going through this process, that the first is where, uh, parents are separated. So they're not technically divorced, but they're separated. And I was curious, according to the financial aid form, when are parents consider quote unquote separated?

Parents are considered separated. Really? When they, the term terminology they use is living as a married couple when they stop living as a married couple, um, this usually requires them to be living in different places, but sometimes people still live together, even though they're considered separated. Um, also in some states they have specific legal separations, um, which make it a little bit more.

Truthful, I guess, as soon as people decide that they're kind of living separate lives and not acting as a married couple anymore, they're considered separated. Yeah. I, I just wanna jump in and say, um, marital status can definitely be confusing. It's important to know that it's your marital status as of the day you file the FAFSA.

So if your parents. Had divorced in February and you're filing the FAFSA in March, then they would be considered divorced. It is self reported. Uh, sometimes colleges may ask for proof of separation in the form of two different mailing addresses. So they may ask for like a utility bill from each parent to prove that they have different addresses.

If they're separated. Okay. That's really helpful. And I'm glad you brought up that scenario, cuz I think that could be confusing to people who are going through this situation. So in one case you said they could be separated, but living together or separated, not living together. Uh, how should you answer the questions on the form?

Uh, in both of those scenarios where the parents are living together, um, but separated or they're not living together and separated. So if they're living together you're or if they don't live together, sorry, you're gonna wanna. Answer for whichever parent you live with more. Um, if you live with both parents equally, if you spend 50, 50, uh, time with them, you wanna provide information for whoever's provides the most support for you.

Um, usually they consider it, uh, at least 50 or more percent of your support per the year. If they do live together, you'll have to answer for both of your parents. If they're separat. Because you're still in the same household. You can't prove that they're living in two separate places. So they use both parents.

That that is correct. Um, and that is self-reported, but yeah, if your parents are, uh, separated, but they're technically still married and they still live together, you are gonna wanna wanna report both parents' information. Okay. That makes sense. And so Alex, when you say self report, it means basically you choose what to say, is that right?

Yeah, because in a lot of times, um, when parents are separated, they're legally still married. So that. Yeah, they self-report, that they're separated. And like I said, the, the college, um, You're applying to may require more information such as those two separate utility bills. I see. So it depend, so that kinda goes college by college.

Okay. No, that makes a lot of sense. And, uh, Mike, one thing that you said, um, you said when, which parent is supporting you, uh, does that mean financial support? Like who's paying for your food, who's who you're living with most, like you said, if it's 50, 50, Or maybe one more than the other. Um, what does support, I guess exactly mean in that case?

Yeah. I mean, I think it hit it on the head with, with everything you just said there it's, whoever's providing the most financial support for whatever you're doing at that time. So if they're paying for your housing, they're paying for your food, paying for your schooling, depending on where you're going to high school.

If it's a, it's a private school. Anything there, um, any form of financial support whoever's doing the most there. Perfect. Okay. And now turning to a situation where the parents are divorced in a similar vein, uh, at what point are the parents considered actually divorced? Is it, you know, when they file for divorce, is it when the.

Court, you know, signs, the final papers. What does that look like? So, yeah, it is, um, it is when the court signs those final papers. So again, it's, it's pretty rare, but there are some circumstances in which the college may request, um, proof of that divorce and that would be the court send documents with that date.

Okay. That makes sense. So up to that point, even if your parents are going through the divorce process, they're technically still just separated. So you'd resort to the info that we just covered that makes. And then in that, in that situation where your parents are legally divorced, uh, how should you answer the parent questions on the form again, if they don't live together, if they do live together.

So this is actually gonna depend on, um, which year the parents got divorced. Um, so it's different if they were divorced before 2020 in this case, Or 2020 or 2021. But in, in both cases, you only need to, uh, report one parent's income. So, because this is where it gets a little confusing because the taxes go back two years, say your parents were divorced in 2020, in 2019.

They may have filed, um, their taxes, married, filing jointly, or married, filing separately. And they would need to put that as their, uh, filing says in the FAFSA, but they would only need to report one income in this case. And again, that is the parent that you live with, uh, 51% of the time or that you receive financial support from 51% or more.

Okay. So you would basically need their. W2. And for anyone who's not aware, I'm assuming most people are aware what that is, but that's just the piece of paper that shows you what you made the taxes that were withheld for the prior year or any year in the past. So it sounds like the W2 would be one of the most useful things to have in that situation though.

I'm sure the official tax documents or the software they're using would show it separated as well. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. A lot of times, um, just would have tax returns if you have like. 2020 tax or 2019 tax returns. That's also helpful to use a lot of information's listed on that. Okay. And just speaking a little bit more to that situation, I think you made that absolutely clear.

Um, but if your parents somehow are divorced yet living together, which as we were discussing before the interview, that is a rare situation, but it does happen in that situation. Like you said, Alex, it's just whoever, whichever parent you're spending more time together with, or, or what does that look like?

Or I guess in that case you would, it would be. Explain that if you would a little bit more, so again, it would still be 51% of your support. So in this case they live together, but maybe one parent, you know, buys majority of your clothes or buys majority of your food, um, or pays majority of the bills.

That'd be the parent that you receive 51% of your support from, and you'd wanna include that parent's information. That makes sense. And moving to, uh, a situation where maybe one of your parents or both of your parents are remarried. Um, should you answer questions in that situation about your stepparents?

So you only need to answer questions about your stepparents if they're married to whichever parent you're using on the FAFSA. So say you're using your father on the FAFSA and he's been remarried. Um, you only have. Put in information for your stepmother. Um, even if your mother was also remarried, you wouldn't have to do anything on that side, if you're only using your father's information.

Yeah. Just to elaborate on that a little bit. So, um, scenario here is, you know, say you're living with your father and he's remarried to your stepmother. We run into this kind of a lot where the student will say, well, my stepmother doesn't doesn't provide any support. Do I still need to include her tax information?

And the answer is yes, if you live ly their father and he's remarried to a stepmother, their tax filing status is most likely. Either married, filing jointly or married filing separately, and you would need to include both of their taxes. And again, that's a, that's a federal regulation that's really helpful to, to know.

So basically they do need to be legally married though, if they're just living together, uh, like if it's a girlfriend boyfriend's situation, then you wouldn't include that information at that point. Is that correct? That's right. Mm-hmm . Okay. And are there any, uh, specific questions, I guess, on the form that may be confusing in that situation, that would be helpful for people listening right now to know, okay, this particular question, this is how you answer it.

Um, I feel like one of the most important things that again, can be really confusing is just, it is the status as the date they filed the FAFSA. So like I said, I mean, if, if a parent was just married last month and now you're filing the FAFSA, he was married to a stepparent. You now need to include that step parent's information.

I think that's one of the most confusing parts. No, that's Claire. And I'm glad you're bringing that back because it, it definitely, um, gives a, a good, uh, way to distinguish between mother two include it or not. Mm-hmm . And, and it's at the point that you finished the F, so like, if you were to start it in January and then like, forget about it and begin it again in March, but your parent was married in February, then you would go with the info at that point in time when you're finishing, is that.

That's correct. Yep. It's gonna be end of the date that you're submitting the FAFSA. Great. Okay. That, that is clear and going through some other scenarios. What if you live with someone who, who isn't your parent, like maybe you're living with, uh, grandparent or cousins or someone else, how does that work?

So. Unless you're legally adopted by someone else. Um, as long as you can still get in contact with your parents, you still have to report information for your parents. So even if you live with an aunt or an uncle, um, a grandmother, a grandfather. Um, unless they've legally adopted you, you still have to report information only for your parents, right?

There's there's also a question that asks if you are an emancipated minor, or, um, in a legal guardianship as a turn by the court. Um, and that's gonna be kind of state by state because not every state recognizes emancipated minors. So that may be depending on what state you are in. But if you're claiming that you're in a legal guardianship with someone who's not your biological parent, uh, most of the time you do have court paperwork that says that, and you would need to provide that.

To the colleges that you're applying to after you file the FAFSA. Okay. So you need to collect all that and send that in that, that makes sense. And when you say emancipated minor, would you explain what that means for anyone listening? Who isn't clear on that? Yeah. So again, this, this goes state by state because not every state recognizes emancipated minor status, but if you are a teenager and you are, you know, living with a parent and.

Not a safe situation. You can, you can go through the process of becoming an emancipated, minor, meaning basically that, even though you're below the age of 18, you are now essentially in charge of yourself. So your parents no longer take care of you. They're not supporting you. You don't have their health insurance, things like that typically a year out on your own.

Yeah. And, and that does happen. So it's, I'm glad that you, uh, explain that. I think sometimes, uh, yeah, sometimes people might not completely understand. Certain terms. So thanks for like breaking it down and making it simple. Especially for me. I, I don't know if I could have defined what an emancipated minor was.

I appreciate that. Mm-hmm you touched on this Alex, but when we're talking about situations where maybe you're not required to provide information about your parents, would that be one of them? Like when are you not required to provide information about your parents? If you are a dependent student, unfortunately, if, if you're a dependent student, There's gonna be a list of questions on the FAFSA that just deal with your dependency status.

You know, if you're working at a master's degree, if you're married, if you're over 24, you're considered independent. Or if you have children that, that you support, you're considered independent. If you are considered a dependent, you don't mean any of those criteria. And let's just say, you don't communicate with your parents anymore.

You haven't spoken to. Unfortunately for federal purposes, you do still need to provide their information on the FAFSA. And that can definitely be problematic, but that's something that college is just, they, they can't get around. There's, there's not really a work around for that because these are federal regulations.

So unfortunately, in this case, if your parents are still supporting you and you don't have that court paperwork saying that they're not eco guardianship or emancipated minor, You would still need their information. Joey building off of that too. There's there's some outlying kind of scenarios where even when you're dependent, it, it's impossible to, to get parent info.

So if your parents are incarcerated, um, if you've left an abusive home, not able to locate your parents, things like that. There, there is an option on the FAFSA to, to not report parent information, but if that does happen, they can't create an EFC for you, which is an estimated family contribution. . If you provide a FAFSA with no EFC, it's considered an invalid FAFSA and that student would not be eligible for any federal aid.

Oh, I see. Okay. So, okay. So that really is a difficult situation. If you are not able to get the information on your parents and there's probably other situations where parents just like, don't really wanna help out, hopefully that's a rare situation, but, um, is that a similar situation where you're kind of in a tough spot or is there anything that you can do if your parents refuse to give you the information that.

In that situation, um, I'd recommend calling the colleges that you're applying to after you've completed the FAFSA, because you, you can submit the FAFSA without parent information, but again, it's gonna come back as invalid, unless you meet one of those, uh, dependency criteria. And at that point, the college still gets the, uh, FAFSA.

It's just not considered valid and they may reach out to. But I'd also recommend, um, on the students part reaching out to the college and kind of explaining your situation. Colleges tend to kind of handle that differently, but unfortunately, the situation is just, you still speak to your parent, your parent, but they don't wanna provide their information.

You would be considered ineligible for federal aid. So you would need to get that in most cases. Okay. No, that's great info. And so that puts you in a tough position. So any of you listening right now, um, if, if that's your situation, uh, maybe you need to sit down with your parent or maybe, uh, parent, if you're listening right now, if you're a parent listening right now, that may be important to sit down with your, uh, ex spouse and talk with them about how important this is not only for.

Your child, but for both of you in terms of getting, you know, your child through college, and so that I'm sure it could be a difficult situation. If you're, you know, a young person who is facing this, um, it may take a little bit of work, but you may need to go through and explain to your parent, like, this is why this information's so important.

Typically that's better to explain the why first and then ask for what you want, instead of just saying, I need this information. And so certainly it's difficult situation. Um, I'm glad you guys are here to talk about this. I want to turn a little bit, uh, to a, a related topic, but a little bit different than what we just discussed.

And that is what if your parents were to separate or divorce after you've submitted your financial aid application? Again, let talk, we let we talked about for the FAFSA, it's your parents status as of the day that you filed the FAFSA. So if you file the FAFSA in March and in June, your parents, um, separated or divorced, You don't change your FAFSA at that point.

Um, because it's after the date that you've submitted and it would affect it for next year's FAFSA. You finish your freshman year and you're ready to go into your sophomore. You complete your FAFSA. At that point, your parents' status would be separated or divorced. And it's gonna come up with a flag on your FAFSA when the school reports it, that says.

You've changed your parents' Mari marital status. Most of the time, they just kinda leave it at that. It makes the school aware, but most of the time there isn't additional information needed about that. Things happen. Definitely. Okay. That makes sense. So that goes back to that principal when you submit it, whatever information is true at that point, that information applies to that year.

And then in prior years you're gonna adjust it based on what's true in that. okay. And going back to some of the practicals when it comes to the form, cause I think it can be really intimidating. I remember it, it being pretty intimidating, especially the first time I went through it. Uh, when does the FSFA open and close?

What I'm looking for? Dates there, if that's not clear. So it always opens on October 1st of whichever year. Prior to that academic year. Um, so for example, for the 20 21, 20 22 academic year, which is coming up right now, the FSA opened this past October 1st, 2020. And for that specific eight year, you can file, um, until the summer that follows the academic year.

So in this case, um, it would be June 30th, 2022. Okay. So those are the deadlines. That's good to know and good to know when it opens and if someone were not to apply right away. And let's say they wait till, I don't know. The beginning of June to apply. Is there less of a chance that you would get a aid or cuz I think there's this idea out there that maybe there's this fund with money in it that the federal government has and then once the get money's gone, you're done.

So would you clear up that a little bit? So yeah, this is kind of those kind of weird. Myths that I feel like everyone is told. I was definitely told that you have to play the FAF as soon as possible to get the most federal aid. Yeah. That's not a thing. Yeah. A lot of federal aid. I mean, it just goes by that that FC that Mike was talking about earlier that, uh, estimated financial contribution has made family contribution and that's not gonna change no matter when you file ergo.

Your financial aid awards and federal government are not gonna change no matter when you file. Now, what I will say is that some colleges may have scholarship deadlines and those can sometimes pertain to the FSIS. Those are not funds from the federal government, but rather from the individual institutions.

So I always recommend filing as early as you possibly can. To get the most institutional aid, but in terms of federal aid, you can file whenever it's not gonna affect that. Okay. And I bet you're a financial aid advisor at the college you're coming to will love you as well for getting it done. Not at the last minute.

yeah. We, we love to see them done early. Definitely be. And especially if you do, if, you know, if you have kind of one of these nontraditional scenarios and you have questions, It's also good to file as soon as possible, so that you have time to reach out to your, uh, financial aid counselors at your college.

They have time to reach out to you and you can resolve all those things before the semester start. That's definitely important. That's really helpful, cuz I think that's one thing going into this interview, um, that, yeah, maybe I wasn't totally clear on, but you really can and should be relying on your financial aid office.

Like they're there to help you people like you two are in those offices. Whose job it is to assist these students. So it's such a great resource to not be afraid to actually reach out email, call, whatever, go in and see them. And so I think that's one big takeaway for me. Yeah. I mean, college is all about relationships.

Um, Rachel, you as a student build. And that can include financial aid. Yeah, definitely. Don't be afraid of your financial aid counselors. We we're overall nice people I don't know about Mike, but, uh, no, I'm just kidding. for the most part I mean, that, that's one real common misconception, especially since we, we deal with money, um, is, is that people assume that sometimes there's myths that we're out to get people and we're, we're trying to stop people from getting stuff.

But our only job is to make sure that people. Are able to get as much aid as they can to get as much support as they can while they're going through college. Um, so that they can come out and be successful on the other side. Love it. Yeah. So you're there to guide them and it's not like this. It's not like you're giving money out of your own wallet so that they're thinking like, oh, they wanna give as little as ly as possible to, to me, but you're actually trying to, yeah, like you said so well to get them the help that they need so they can get through college and go on and be successful in their career.

Right. Are there any other myths or. Uh, conceptions, like what are some of the most popular ones when it comes to, uh, financial aid and, and this whole process that can be kind of confusing. So really quick, one of the big things that we get a lot of students, I think they think one of two things, either financial aid is just loans, which is not the case or financial aid is not loans.

Financial aid is really, it's a big umbrella. That encompasses, you know, all the scholarships, all of the grants, all of the loans, basically anybody that's not paid out of pocket, that's going towards your education is considered financially. You know, FAFSA refers to, uh, subsidized unsubsidized, student loans, federal loans, and then the federal Pell grant, the FAFSA can affect things with institutional financial aid, like your scholarships, things like that.

But it really just pertains to, to those two loans and the federal Pell grant that I think that's really useful for people to know. Cuz I think you're right. There's a lot of misconception there. Mike, are there any myths that you see kind of in your position where people are coming in and maybe they haven't done their research and they're just confused about some things, any, any myths there?

I mean, I, I wouldn't say any overall myth. I think just people think that it's going to be more confus. It's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy people go into filling out the FAFSA thinking that it's gonna be confusing. Then they go ahead and get confused while actually filling it out. Um, so take it slow.

Um, there's no reason to rush. Um, if you have any questions while you're filling out the FAFSA, you need help. Um, they have a federal student aid information center that you can call, um, with dedicated specialist that can walk you through the different parts of the facet. Tell you what kind of information you should be providing anything like.

so, like I said, no reason to rush, make sure you got all the right information in there and you'll be good to go. Excellent. Alex, anything to add to that, to a parent who's listening or to a young person on advice for getting through the process and, and doing it successfully and working well with their financial aid advisors.

Yeah. I mean, I always say the, the first one is the most difficult. When you're going in your freshman year, you're doing the FAFSA for the first time. That that's the hardest one. And then after that, you know, it, it just gets easier every year that you do it and you kind of get more used to it. You hear a lot of, kind of like horror stories about the FAFSA financially in general, but I always say is.

You commute to work every single day. But the one day that you remember is the one where you were stuck in a traffic jam and you were an hour and a half late. Most of the time, that's not the case of the FAF. So most of the time, you know, you, you get right through it and you have no problems and you have no problems there financially, but you really only hear about those like crazy scenarios that people have.

They're they're not very common. And you'll find that, especially in, in the most recent years, they've really made the FAFs. Pretty understandable. There's little like information tabs on each of the questions. So if you're like, oh, I'm not sure what they're trying to ask here. That'll give you more information right on there.

Um, there's a lot of videos out there. People put in the FAFSA, you know, tips, helpful, things like that. Um, and again, don't be afraid of your financial aid office. We're here to help. And if you haven't received a financial aid offer letter, it's probably because the institution hasn't received your FAFSA.

So definitely check in with them. we'd love to communicate, uh, with students even before they arrive at our college. Great. And, uh, that no, that's really helpful. And it sounds like one of the biggest things is just getting started. Just start the process. And if you mm-hmm, hit a roadblock along the way. Uh, save it, figure out the answer, go back, get it going.

But I think this can, it can be, especially for parents who are busier, maybe they're going through a lot, uh, with a divorce or something like that. Students who have a lot going on in their lives. Uh, it may be kind of intimidating where it's like this huge thing that I have to get done. But if you just take it one piece at a time, that's what I hear you both saying, take it one piece at a time, do what you can and then, you know, aim to get it done.

And if you need help, ask for help. Mm-hmm yeah, yeah. Never be afraid to ask questions. You wanna make sure that everything is on there. So you're getting as much aid as possible. So reach out, use your resources, um, do whatever you can to, to make sure you're putting all the right information on. There is also just a quick, you know, note here.

There's also a FAFSA. So, if you don't have access to a laptop or a computer, for whatever reason, you can complete the FAFSA. Right. On an app, it was created a few years ago. I've gone through it and it's, it's pretty, pretty easy to use. So if you have a smartphone, that's another option for you. That's a great tip.

I did not know that. And. Along those lines. Are there any other resources or, or tips that you guys would, would leave with everyone listening? I mean, there's, if you go on just say YouTube or anything like that, they also have FAFSA walkthroughs where you can take a look, see what kind of information is going to be asked for before you even start.

If that's something that interests you, um, it kind of walks through step by, step on what all the questions are. So you know what information you're gonna need before you start? Yeah. A, a lot of college. And even some high schools have like FAFSA events where they'll have like computer labs open and you can sign up and you can actually do the event or do the FAFSA with someone.

I know the college at Mike and I work out, we're doing a big FAFSA event coming up here soon. So if anyone hasn't completed it, um, and they're accepted at our college, they can come to that and we walk 'em through the whole process. So that's, that's a pretty common thing. All the colleges that I've worked at have those kind of days.

So if you're, you know, really struggling, I'd say to check into one of those inquire about whether or not the colleges you've applied to have that option. You guys are great. Thank you so much for, uh, for all of your wisdom, all the practical bits of advice. I know this is gonna help, uh, a lot of people who maybe feel stuck or they feel kinda confused about this whole process.

So thank you both for, for being here, uh, for, for giving us your time and your expertise. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for having. Yeah, we, we really appreciate your time and letting us come on and talk

in closing out the show. We have a few resources for you guys. So one, we have a video for you. It walks you through the financial aid application process showing you each step in the process. And you can even put this up on your screen while you're filling out the. Application, it can help guide you through each section.

So we have a link to that video in the show notes, but like Mike said, you can really just search on YouTube, FFA walkthrough, video, financial aid, walkthrough video, and you'll be able to find something similar. We also have a really helpful infographic for you that helps you determine whose parents info.

You need to be adding to the financial aid application depending on your situation. So really well designed easy to understand infographic. So that's also linked in the show notes. And then lastly, If you wanna avoid debt altogether, which is honestly the best thing that you can do. And I understand that for some people, it feels like it's impossible.

If you wanna avoid that altogether and figure out some creative ways to cash flow your way through college, meaning you're not taking out debt, you're paying cash gradually as you go through college, check out the book debt free degree by Anthony O'Neil. The, the subtitle of that book is the step by step guide to getting your kid through college.

Without student loans. And we'll add a link to that in the show notes, Anthony O'Neal is really awesome. Speaker writer, podcast host, and he gives really practical ideas on how you can get through college without taking out a ton of debt. It's a huge problem in our world today, especially in the United States where we take out tons and tons of debt to go through college.

And then in the end we gotta pay it all back and it takes years and years and years, and it really hurts our journey. To financial freedom. And so Anthony Neil has a lot of great content, make sure to check him out and in the future, we're gonna be producing more content on this topic, like creating a, a step by step blog article that will give you, you know, the main points that we covered in this episode and help you go through all those.

So make sure to join our email list, if you wanna stay tuned for that. And you can do that by going to the show notes page on that page, there's a form you can fill out and just send your name, your email, and then you can stay in touch with. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 41.

Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular. Dot com slash four one also quick shout out to Erin Hasso for her research and her help in producing this episode. Erin, thank you so much for the research you did the content you put together and making this interview happen really, really helpful. You're awesome.

Thank you, Erin. And thank you for listening. If this has been useful, I invite you to subscribe and to share the podcast with someone, you know, who could use it. Always, remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#040: 9 Ways to Pay for Counseling

You want to go to counseling, but a massive barrier stands in the way: The price. 

Therapy is not cheap. So, how are you going to pay for it? We tackle that question and more in this episode:

• 9 practical tips on how to pay for counseling

• How much does counseling actually cost?

• The info and next steps you need to pay for counseling, so you can heal and feel whole again

Find a counselor

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• #012: Counseling: How It Works and Why It Helps | Dr. Julia Sadusky, PsyD

• How much does mental health care cost? Part 2: Finding Affordable Psychotherapy

• How Much Does Therapy Cost and How Do You Pay For It?

• Seven Ways to Find Mental Health Financial Assistance

• STUDY: Americans Just Can’t Afford Mental Health Treatment

• World Population Prospects 2019, Volume I: Comprehensive Tables

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As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

So you are someone, you know, are thinking about going to counseling, but one huge barrier that you're facing is the price therapy is not cheap. So how the heck are you going to pay for it and to make things where maybe you're in a tough situation right now, maybe you're out of work or maybe you're just struggling to get by.

Maybe you're a student that doesn't really have an income. How do you deal with this? The first thing to know is you're not alone. The price of therapy, the price of counseling is a huge barrier for so many people. One article said this that said for the one in five us adults with a mental illness, about half of them go without treatment deterred by out of pocket costs.

And other obstacles such as finding an in network. Provider. So using some really basic math it's estimate, there are 331 million Americans at this recording. Now I understand that it's not just including adults, it's taking into account kids, but let's just keep the math simple and let's say. 330 million Americans.

The article I just shared said that 20% of them let's say has a mental illness. So it's roughly 66 million Americans. Then it says that half of that population, which is 33 million Americans with a mental illness. Are not getting the help that they need because of the obstacle of paying for counseling.

So again, that's over 30 million Americans estimated that aren't going to counseling, even though they have a mental illness because they can't pay for it. They don't know how to pay for it. Maybe they can, but they just don't know how. To go about it. And again, those numbers just include people who technically have a mental illness that doesn't include the huge amount of people.

Huge number of people who don't have a mental illness, but still want or need the benefits that counseling, uh, Offers, perhaps because they want to heal from some past trauma in their life, such as the trauma of, you know, coming from a broken home, or maybe they went through some abuse in their life, or maybe they just wanna deal with some other pain or problems in their lives that isn't technically classified as mental illness.

So that number of 33 million goes up a ton. And then when we look globally, of course, that number is astronomically higher. So this is a. Problem, whatever your situation, whatever your reason for going to counseling. If the price of counseling is preventing you from going to counseling, we hear you. And this episode is especially for you.

It's gonna help you a lot where you're gonna get out of it. We're gonna talk a little bit about how much does counseling actually cost. We'll give you nine common sense tips on how to pay for counseling. And by the end, you're gonna have the information that you need. To make a decision on how to pay for counseling and the next steps that you need to take in order to get counseling.

So you can begin or continue the healing process. So lots of good stuff ahead. Keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' force or separation. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 40. Again. I mentioned we're gonna give. Tips on how to pay for counseling. Before I dive into that, I just wanna let you know that we are now accepting questions for the show.

Some of you have already submitted questions. Thank you so much for doing that. But if you wanna submit your question, uh, we'll answer those on the show by either me or by my guess. And some of the benefits you can really ask anything that you want, a anything related to growth or healing or coping in healthy ways instead of unhealthy ways, anything related to.

The trauma of the breakdown of your family, maybe you're in a situation where you feel stuck or you're unsure how to handle the pain or the problems from your parents' breakup, or maybe you're unsure how to go about healing. We can help you there. Maybe, you know, someone who's going through all this, you love them, you lead them and you wanna give them some help, but you're not sure how to go about it.

We can help you there too. So, whatever your question we're gonna. Specific and practical answers right here on the show. If you wanna submit your question, it's really simple. Just go to restored ministry.com/ask Joey again, that's restored ministry ministers to singular.com/ask Joey, you're just gonna fill out the form with your question, and then when you submit it as we're able.

Will answer your question on the show. It's that simple. So go to restored ministry.com/ask Joey.

All right. The first thing you need to know before we get into the nine tips, when it comes to paying for counseling is that therapy is not forever. Typically this is a temporary thing that you go through for some season. In your life. So don't approach it, thinking that, okay, once I commit to it, I'm gonna be going to therapy for the rest of my life.

You might need to go back at some point and there's nothing wrong with that. That's fine. But it is really a temporary thing. And Dr. Julia Sadusky who we had on in episode 12, she said that typically takes four. Six sessions to start seeing an impact to start feeling better. If you're going there for maybe some, you know, messy emotions that you're dealing with.

So just four to six sessions, that's typically, you know, if you go once a week, that's a month to two months. So it's really this temporary investment in yourself in your mental health and feeling healthy and feeling. Whole again. And so that's how we really need to look at it. When you look at it as an investment, that's going to pay off, we're gonna get a return on our investment in the long run.

And if you just think in terms of your career, just to take one simple example, if you feel broken. If you're depressed, if you're anxious, if you're having a hard time focusing, because a lot of the pain and the problems in your life, it will obviously affect your work. You won't be as effective at your job.

You're gonna struggle. Maybe even to get a job in the first place, you're gonna struggle to, to move up, to learn new skills, to make more money. The list goes on, you get the idea, but let's say you were to invest some money sometime some effort, because it's not an easy thing to go through healing. If you were to do.

You could be in a much better spot in just three months and six months in a year to the point where you are able to focus better, you don't feel depressed, you don't feel anxious, or maybe you have the tools to better handle. When you do feel anxious. When you do feel depressed, you're gonna be much more effective at your job.

And then hopefully you can move up. You can make some more money, you can be more productive and your life overall, you're gonna be in a much better spot as well. So. Take the approach when it comes to therapy that you're investing in your future self, you're putting money into yourself, so to speak so that similar to an education in the future, you're gonna be able to do better.

You're gonna live a better life. You're gonna make more money. You're gonna do better at your job. You're gonna have more successful relationships. And on and on and on. And that's another example we could look to your relationships, right? Your friendships, your family situation, even your physical health across the board.

Like you could end up living longer. If you end up dealing with this pain, these problems that you're dealing with in your life by getting some help from a professional. And so, again, look at counseling as an investment. You're not just burning money, you're not throwing it down the drain for no reason.

You're gonna get something in return. If you find a good counselor and you put in the work and on the opposite end of that too, I, I kind of hate to mention this, but we need to face this truth that these issues that we're dealing with today, Could get more serious. In fact, they likely will get more serious if we don't get help and they might be even more expensive to treat in the future in the long run, you know, you could take a physical example, right?

Let's say I were to hurt my leg in some way. And instead of going to the doctor, instead of getting a surgery or healing it through therapy of some kind, let's say, I just say, ah, I'll be fine. I'll be fine. And it goes on for years and years and years. And let's say I'm I'm okay. Like I'm getting by. But then in the future it gets worse and it gets worse and it gets worse to the point where now I'm having major leg issues and I need a serious surgery to fix those issues.

That's gonna cost way more money. The recovery's gonna take way more time. You get the idea. We could look at a marriage too. So let's say you're married or you wanna be married one day. And if let's say in that marriage, you're having a lot of issues. You're having a lot of problems, but you don't really want to spend the money to go to marriage counsel.

It could be. I hate to say this, cuz it's such a scary thing that I fear a lot too it's could be that you end up getting divorced because you just never deal with your problems in your marriage. And a divorce is certainly much more expensive than what you'd spend on marriage counseling. I I've known couples to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on attorney fees.

It is insane. It's such a lucrative. Business for attorneys, for other people who are monetizing on families getting divorced. It it's insane. So. It's better. It's less expensive to treat the problems early on. It's easier to treat them early on than it is to let them get more serious in the long run. So again, it's not just an investment, but it's actually in a way insurance.

It's a way to help you to save money in the long run as well. So, That aside, how do you pay for it? The, the first tip is really obvious. Get your insurance to pay for it. And this is of course, assuming that you actually have insurance, maybe you're on your parents' insurance. How do you go about though figuring if your insurance will pay for it?

Uh, the easiest thing that you can do is just find your insurance companies phone number on Google. If you don't have it, just Google. The name of your insurance company and give them a call. This call's probably gonna take 10 to 15 minutes. You're probably gonna sit on the phone a little bit. When you call them, might take a little bit to, to get to the right location.

But once you talk to someone, you're gonna want to ask them a few questions and I suggest grabbing some paper, grab a pen, or just open up the notes app on your phone to write some of these questions down. If you need to pause this and come back to it, go ahead and do that. So. There's just a few questions that you want to ask the person from the insurance company.

You can just ask them what mental health benefits do I have with my insurance policy. So what mental health benefits do I have? It's the first question. And then you could ask, okay. Let's say where to go to counseling. What would I pay out of pocket? They might not be able to give you an exact amount, but they could probably give you some sort of range based on your insurance policy so they can give you a good idea.

Okay. Maybe you're gonna pay $20 outta pocket or $50 outta pocket. If you were to go to counseling. Next question you can ask is how many sessions per year? Would they cover there might be a limit there. So make sure you ask them to clarify that for you. You could also ask, do you cover counselors who are out of network where the counselor that you would see is not one of the counselors that they would recommend?

It's not one of the counselors that's within. Their network, but they might be able to pay for it. So you wanna talk to them about that and that's gonna really depend on your insurance plan as well. Another question, do you offer reimbursements? Like maybe they can't cover the costs initially where the counseling practice would submit the bill to the insurance company, but if you were to pay for it out of pocket, they could give you a reimbursement later.

On, and you would need to, you know, keep track of all the bills and everything like that, but it doesn't take too much work. You would submit them to the insurance company. They would be able to, you know, give you some money back, right. You would check or put some money into your account. So that's a good question to ask too, but there might be some limit on how much you can be reimbursed per year.

So that's another thing that you wanna ask as well. So ask about that. And then lastly, I would probably ask, is there a diagnosis that is required? What that basically means a diagnosis is just some document, right? From the counselor saying that you have a condition that needs to be treated, that's it?

And that might sound kind of scary, right? Like, are you gonna be labeled as a freak? Are people gonna find this out? Really? It's just a procedure that the insurance company needs the counselor to go through in order to cover the cost in order for them. To cover the cost. And if you are concerned, maybe about the possibility of it affecting you in the future, you can ask your counselor about that.

You can ask the practice about that and say, who would have access to this information potentially in the future. Tell them about your concerns and, and just ask them, you know, who would see this information in the future. If I do get some sort of diagnosis saying. You know, I deal with a needing disorder or I deal with depression, whatever, whatever situation you're dealing with.

Now, keep in mind, at least in the us. And a lot of other countries have very similar laws. HIPAA it's basically the privacy laws around medical records. They can't just. Give them to anyone like you're, you're very protected in this way. And they, we take it in the states like very, very seriously, like people have been fined.

I don't know if people have gone to jail or not, but people have been fined lots and lots of money for leaking sensitive, um, medical records for people that wasn't an authorized sharing of, of that medical record. And so basical. You're really protective. There's really only one situation that, that I'm aware of where maybe a judge could mandate that the counselor would have to release certain documents to them or come and testify in court.

And so if that's a serious concern for you, you could talk to the counselor and say, you know, when exactly would this happen, what would it look like? But for most people it's really not a big issue. It's really something not to be concerned with. But if you are. Talk to the counselor about it. And if you know, a lawyer or something like that, and you're comfortable talking with them, you could ask them as well.

But like I said, for most people, this isn't a real issue. And again, if you are really concerned, talk to someone who has more expertise, I don't pretend to be a lawyer. I'm not a lawyer. And so, uh, talk to someone who knows a law who can guide you in that situation. But from my point of view, just so you know, let's say someone were to find out about this.

Some. People everywhere struggle with a lot of problems, like a lot of pain, a lot of problems in their lives. And so my take is if you are getting help for some issue in your life that does not make you weak. That actually makes you strong. Like, I look up to you for going and getting help. It shows me your strength.

It shows me that you're not defined by your problems, but you're working through them. And so if you have questions about that, make sure to, to ask your counselor, they can clarify a lot of that. So again, just to go through those questions, if you're writing them down, ask them what mental health benefits do I have.

If I went to counseling, what would I pay out of pocket? How many sessions per year, would you cover, do you cover counselors that are out of network? Do you offer reimbursements? If they don't, you know, pay for it upfront, if they don't cover it and then is a diagnosis required? Those are just some good questions you can ask and make sure that you're asking them to a point where you can understand what they're telling you, because insurance is super confusing.

So make sure that if the person you're talking to is giving you these really weird answers that you don't understand, don't say, oh, okay. Got it. Don't pretend. Just say, I'm sorry. I don't understand what you're saying. Is there another way that you can explain that? Or, you know, maybe the person. Doesn't really know what they're talking about has to be transferred to someone else and, and they can do that for you.

That's not something that you should feel embarrassed asking about, make sure that they're giving you the help that you need. And they're being clear with your answers until you understand it. Keep asking until you understand it. Talk to someone else. If you have to now one challenge that's come up.

We've talked to people about this. Let's say you're on your parents' insurance and you wanna go to counseling. You know, you need help, but you don't want your parents to know. That you're going to counseling because maybe you just don't wanna have that conversation with them, perhaps a lot of the pain and the problems that you're dealing with stems from what's happened in your family.

You might really not want to have that conversation with them yet talking about, Hey, this is what I'm going through. I need help. That's real struggle. We totally get it. So a few options there. When you're on the phone with the insurance company, you can ask them, you know, what sort of privacy rights do I have since I am on my parents' insurance?

Like, are they gonna get a letter in the mail saying. Oh, you know, your son, your daughter is going to counseling. They're being treated for this. You can ask them what exactly, what information would my parents see? They can give you some answers in that again, ask until you understand, um, another option, which this is harder.

Is, you can have a honest conversation with one or both of your parents. You could say, Hey mom, Hey dad, I'm just going through a hard time right now. I'm struggling with some stuff. I don't really wanna talk about it, but I do wanna get some help. And so I'm looking around for a counselor. I'm going to try to figure out, you know, what the insurance will pay for.

Just wanna let you know, cuz I know you'll be made aware of it. Let's say the insurance company would tell you that they will notify your parents in some way, or maybe your parents will see it on their bill. You can keep it generic. You can keep it simple, but you can just let your parents know. So there's not this big dramatic issue that comes up.

If you can't face your parents, talk to 'em face to face on the phone, then. Maybe just send them a letter, just let them know. And, and that's all you would really need to do, because if you're on their insurance, you have the right to go through with that. And, uh, and there's nothing to be ashamed of. Now, if that's totally not an option, let's say the insurance company says, well, your parents are going to know that you're going to counseling.

You really don't want them to know. Then you're might need to use one of the other options that we're gonna. In this episode, tip number two is ask your employer about employee assistance program. So if you have a job it's possible that your employer might pay for counseling. Even if your insurance doesn't cover it, or maybe you don't even have insurance.

So what I suggest here. Is go and talk to your HR department. You can send them an email. You can give them a call and you can just ask them, Hey, do we cover counseling? I'm just curious. I was thinking about going to counseling. You really can keep it generic. You don't need to give them a lot of info there.

You can just ask the question and see what they say. And again, HR people, they have a lot of confidentiality. Safeguards in place. So they're not just gonna walk around your office or tell your boss or other leaders in the organization that you're asking about counseling, that they have to keep that stuff quiet.

And so, uh, rest assured there that if you were to ask them, it's not unusual and they're supposed to keep that quiet tip number three, use college campus counseling. Or maybe some community counseling center. So when I was in college, I did this, I used my college counseling center, uh, just a bunch of trained counselors that were available to us students just to be clear, this is not to be confused with academic counselors or advisors.

These were, uh, trained therapists who were able to, you know, help us with the issues that we were dealing with and the cost for me, I remember it was just $10 a session and I didn't have much money at the time at all. And so I went every other week. And it was really helpful. I did that for a year and a half, so I definitely put some money into it, of the little money that I had at the time, but it, it was certainly worth it.

And the challenge there, of course, if you were to go to your campus counseling center, is, are they any good? You know, are they gonna give you good advice? Are they gonna give you moral advice? Let's say you have a faith background. You wanna make sure, you know, are they gonna say things that maybe doesn't align with what I believe.

That can be super challenging. I'm gonna talk about that a little bit more at the end of this episode, but it's just good to be aware that maybe you're gonna have to try it out and see how it goes. And sometimes in those counseling centers on campuses, just know that you might have a newly certified counselor.

Or maybe it's a student who's working to get their certification, they're working to get their hours. So again, it might be worth a try. You might have to just test this out, run it as like an experiment to just see how it goes. And when you're interviewing the counselor at the beginning, cuz it really is an interview, uh, from you to them.

You're seeing if they're the right person to help you, you can ask them a ton of questions and just see. If that's gonna be an issue. If you come from a faith background, maybe they don't, is that gonna be a problem at all? And you can just be totally upfront with them and they should be able to give you some straight answers.

By the way, if you're not a student at a college, you still might be able to go on campus to get counseling. So look into that. If you're near a university, you can, uh, give the counseling center a call and just see if they offer. Anything for the community at large. And if they don't, or you're not near a university, a community counseling center in your area might be a more affordable option.

And so just get on Google and search community counseling center. Now this is not something that I'd recommend as like the top option, but if you're in a desperate spot, if you're in a tough spot with money, And you need some help. Now let's say you're dealing with some serious condition or even your symptoms are just really hard to deal with right now.

Do it, just get the help that you need right now. And maybe the long run that counselor, that practice that you're going to isn't the best fit, but it's better if you really need it to get the help now than to just wait longer and longer and longer to try to find the perfect counselor that you might never.

And, you know, in that practice or another practice, perhaps it's possible that group therapy could be a good option for you. Now, group therapy might sound kind of scary, but it could be a much more affordable option for you. In some cases you could end up paying half as much as you would. If you were to work one to one with a counselor, tip number four.

Find pro bono counseling. So pro bono is just a fancy word, meaning that a counselor would do it for free. So counselors in certain situations will offer free counseling to people who really need it, meaning they would look at your financial situation. You'd probably have to give them certain information about your financial situation.

And they would say, okay, I'm willing to do this much free counseling with you. So that could be an option. Maybe there's a practice, you know of that. You wanna try, you could ask them that, or you can give. Campus, or you can ask that community counseling center and see if they would do pro bono counseling.

Uh, you also, maybe there's a counselor you're interested in. Maybe they could refer you to someone who they know who does some pro bono work as well. Tip number five, pay out of pocket. So let's say your insurance doesn't cover it, or you don't have insurance. You could always pay out of pocket if you're making enough money to do that.

But a huge barrier here that we've seen is that you might not feel like it's worth. Like, is this gonna actually work? Is this a good use of my money? We totally get that. And the truth is you're gonna get out of counseling. What you put into it. If you put in the effort, if you find a good counselor, you're gonna get something out of it, but it's really important that you put in the work.

And it's also important that you actually put some skin in the game that it costs you something, because the truth is that you're gonna work harder and you're gonna value your therapy much more. If it actually costs you something. If it's not just a handout, something you get for free, you're gonna be more motivated and you're probably gonna end up completing counseling.

Quicker than if maybe mom or dad were paying for it or someone else is paying for it. And again, there's nothing wrong with going to counseling for free. If you, you have that need in your life right now, nothing wrong with that, but it really does change things. When you take money, you're hard earned money out of your pocket and you're paying it down again.

This is an investment we're not just throwing money down the drain. Um, but it's really helpful when we're putting money. Into it, knowing that we're gonna get something out of it, we're gonna just value it that much more. And I remember Dave Ramsey telling a story how I believe they would pay for their team members to go to counseling with their spouse if they needed it.

But, uh, if I'm remembering the story, right, they didn't really see results right away, but then eventually they started not paying for it a hundred percent. Maybe they're putting 50% into it. And at that point they started seeing much more results than before, because. Their team members started to realize, man, if I don't get some of this together, if I don't start working on my issues, start solving some of these problems with my spouse.

I'm gonna be putting out a lot of money. And so, uh, it motivated them to change it, motivated them to really work on their growth. And that is what can happen with you too, if you're paying out of pocket. So there's a lot of value in paying out of pocket. And there's a few things you can do again, if you can't.

Overall, and we're gonna get into some of those right now. Tip number six, ask the counselor if they have a sliding scale fee. So a sliding scale fee is basically where they would reduce their regular fee by some percentage to help you out. How much is counseling though? Regularly? It could range anywhere from $75 to $150, or maybe if you're seeing a specialist.

Or you're in an expensive city like New York or San Francisco that can go up to 200 or $300. And that's for typically a 45 minute session. Now you might be thinking why in the world? Is it so expensive? A few reasons. One therapists obviously go through a lot of training. Like if you get your PhD going through all that schooling takes a ton of time, a ton of effort and it isn't cheap.

So they obviously go through a lot of training. They deserve to be paid for all that, but also they need to make a living. Like they just like any other job, they need to make money. And if they're running their own practice, there's a ton of other expenses that they need to manage in addition to just doing their counseling.

So they'll need insurance, they'll need to pay any people that work for them, just like any other business. And so there's different reasons why. It can be so expensive, but like I mentioned, for people who need it, they will be able to work with you in most cases. Not always, but in a lot of cases, they'll be able to work for you on that sliding scale free.

Now they can't usually give it away for free, but maybe they could reduce it from $150 to a hundred dollars or to $75. So you may be able to get some sort of a deal like that. And basically what you can do here to figure out how much you can pay. Just do a quick calculation, try to look at your budget.

If you have one or just estimate how much you can pay per month for counseling. So let's say that's $200 per month that you can afford to do counseling. And then from there, what you wanna do is divide that by how many sessions you would have in a month. So if you go once a week, that would be of course, $50 per session.

Or if you were to go every other week, let's say that's, you know, a hundred dollars. A session. And then when you talk to the practice, when you go in to see the counselor, maybe you do a free phone consultation. You can ask them about their sliding scale fee and you can negotiate with them a little bit.

Now negotiation can be scary, but understand here that you're looking for a win. Win situation where you need the help and you're willing to pay some money to get the help they're trained. They can give you the help that you need and they need to make money. And so it really is a win-win situation. So don't be afraid to ask and if they come back and they say, no, we can't do it.

That's totally fine. Maybe you go elsewhere. Maybe you figure out a way to pay. By the way when you're asking a question like that for a sliding scale fear, typically when you're just going to counseling for the first time you fill out all these forms, they call them intake forms. Typically, they're gonna ask you some questions about your financial situation and just understand that you are not obliged to tell them everything about your financial situation.

You can decline telling them certain things. You can tell them. Now I'm not comfortable sharing that information. Or, you know, if you, if they're asking on a form how much you make, you can just say. Not applicable or just put in zeros in the field instead of giving them that information, it's totally your call.

If you're willing to share that, that's fine. They may require more of that information if you're asking for a discount than if not, but, uh, you really don't have to give it to them. As far as I know in my experience of doing counseling for years, you don't have to give that information to them. Tip number seven, adjusts appointment frequency.

So the less that you go, the less expensive it obviously. Well be now, typically counselors wanna see you every week or maybe every other week. So if you are going every week, if you were to adjust it to every other week, then it obviously becomes less expensive per month. If you go to every three weeks, that could be good too.

Maybe once a month, usually less frequency isn't advised. But it is a possibility. It, it, depending on your situation, you can talk to your counselor and see if it would be a good idea. If you need more help, more support, obviously you don't wanna be waiting that long, but maybe you can get by doing every other week and maybe having some friends or an online support group or something that you're checking in with more frequently to kind of fill that void while you're waiting to go back to your counseling session.

Another option here too. Aside from going less frequency is actually doing an intensive. So an intensive is where you do counseling for a week or, or two weeks. And in the end it could not always, it could end up being actually cheaper to do that. You would need to save up for it. It would be a big amount of money to pay all at once.

Or maybe you can figure out some other way. Pay for it. But in episode 37, we had Margaret que on and we talked about, uh, her therapy a little bit and she does it intensive. So basically you would go to her, uh, office to her town. You'd stay there for, I think it's a week. I think sometimes she does two weeks.

And she, you know, would treat you, you would work with her for the whole week and, uh, you would pay, you know, a larger amount in that case. Now let's say, I don't know what she charges offhand, but let's say it was like $2,000. Now that's a lot of money to pay all at once. But let's say you were to do maybe 40 hours of counseling over that week or two weeks.

That would be about $50 an. Now again, I don't know what it actually would be in reality, but if that were the case, then it could be substantially cheaper to do that than to go, you know, to a counseling practice where they're charging you a hundred dollars an hour going every other week. So you can just talk to your counselor.

You can take a look at some of the options if they have intensivess. If you wanna do that, if you wanna go a little bit less frequently, you can just talk to your counselor and see, and just make sure that they know that you would wanna do that in order to save money and just see what they say. Tip number eight, get on a payment plan.

I'm not a huge fan of debt. I don't think it's wise to go into debt in most situations, but getting on a payment plan might be smart if you're in a tough financial situation. And typically if you do this with a counselor, there wouldn't be any interest involved. And so the, the risk is really not there that there would be with another type of loan.

Basically, what you'd do in this case is you would pay your counseling bill off slowly. Maybe you'd pay $50 or a hundred dollars a month. One counselor I worked with in the past did this for me. So I would go to counseling. I think typically it was like twice a month. And so he would add up the time to my bill.

And then let's say, I think I did it for about six months. In that case, I would pay a certain amount. Per month, let's say it was a hundred dollars until the entire bill was taken care of. And so that can be a good thing you can do where you're getting the help that you need, but you're paying it a little bit more slowly.

And so you need to ask your counselor about it. Some counseling practices won't be willing to do that, but some will. And in certain situations they may have never tried that before. This might be something new for them. So you might need to sell it a little bit, but it could be a good thing. It could be an attractive thing, both for them.

And for. Tip number nine, asks someone to cover the costs for you. This is super humbling. Some of you are immediately opposed to this idea. You're so turned off by it because you're just so independent. And I get that I'm that way too. But if there's no other way that you can pay for counseling and you really need the help, don't be afraid to ask someone to help you out because you know, you can't afford it.

So you can just ask them and say, Hey, you know, I'm in this tough situation right now. I can't afford counseling, but I really need it. Is there any way that you can help me out and give them of course the freedom to say, no, they do not have to do this. Of course, if they do want to help you, one really important piece to this is make sure that it's clear whether you are paying back that loan.

Let's say it's a loan. Or if they're just giving it to you as a gift, it's gonna save so much time, so much frustration, so much trouble by making sure that you talk about that. And maybe even putting it into writing, even if it's just an email or text message that you save, it's gonna help so much to put that into writing, to get clear in that first so that, you know, you're not ending up in this weird situation where.

Thought someone was giving you a gift, but in the end it was actually just a loan. So make sure to get clear on that and don't expect someone to pay a hundred percent for your counseling. Like I mentioned before, it's usually better if you're paying for some of it, because again, it needs to cost you a little bit in order for you to really benefit from and to be motivated.

To go through with and take it seriously and make sure to take that money seriously, if they're gifting it to you, because that's nothing that should be taken lightly. They're likely sacrificing a lot in order to give that to you. And so we need to make sure that we're honoring them by putting in the hard work and really working to heal.

So that's it. Those are the nine tips I'm gonna run through them quickly. Again, the first one is get insurance to pay. Second, ask your employer about employee assistance programs. Third use college campus counseling, or maybe an affordable community counseling center. Fourth find pro bono counseling, someone who will do it for free because your situation five pay out of pocket six, ask the counselor.

If they have a sliding scale fee, seven adjust appointment frequency eight, get on a payment plan and nine ask someone to cover the cost for. Something that I would love to do in the future that we can't do right now. But we'd love to do in the future is offer grants to pay partially for counseling, for people who qualify for it, who need our help.

Again, we're not there yet. We don't have the funding to do that at this point, but join our email list@restoredministry.com to stay tuned for things like that. Again, it's something that I'd like to do at some point in the future. Um, if we can, I, if we get the funding to do something like. So we'd love to hear from you guys too.

What, what creative ways have you used to pay for counseling? And, and did we miss anything? Let us know, email us@contactrestoredministry.com or you could just fill out the form on the website again, contact restored ministry.com. We'd love to hear from you. In closing a, another huge barrier that a lot of people face when it comes to actually going through with counseling is finding a good counselor.

And I totally understand that. And when we think of counselors and talk about counselors at restored, we are typically looking for three main things. We're first looking for someone who's competent, who's good at their craft. They know. What they're doing, they have the expertise, they have the experience, they have the training, all of that.

They need to be competent next. They have to have a good understanding of the human person because they're trying to treat very deep and often complicated issues. And so they really need a good understanding of the human person. And lastly, there need to be someone who appreciates and understands how damaging the breakdown as your family can be.

There's a lot of counselors out there who really don't understand this. They don't appreciate it. They don't know the research on how damaging it can be and they might end up saying harmful things to you because, well, you know, you're struggling with the breakdown of your parents' marriage and they're just maybe making light of it saying, well, now you.

Two homes and twice as many gifts and all that sort of stuff, that's just not helpful at all. So you wanna find someone again, who's competent, someone who understands a human person and someone who can understand and appreciate what would be so harmful about the breakdown of your parents' marriage. Now, for those of you who come from a faith background, you might also want someone who is a Christian, let's say.

So that goes into that second point. Having a good understanding of the human person. One thing I wanna say on that note, though, a very competent counselor who maybe doesn't share your same faith background should still be able to help you. There shouldn't be a conflict there in, in a lot of cases, not in every case, but in a lot of cases, if they're not able to do that, to be objective and help you, even if they don't come from your faith background, then that says that they're not extremely competent in what they do just to be.

But at the same time, I totally understand if you wanna go to someone who does come from a faith background. And so go ahead and look for that. You can find people you can ask around we're building our network, which I'll I'll tell you about in a second, but a few pointers when it comes to looking for a counselor, understand if you're looking for a Christian counselor, that that doesn't guarantee that they're good at what they.

It's like, you know, finding a Christian plumber, a Christian doctor, it's like, great they're Christian. Awesome. That doesn't make them good at what they do. They need to be good at what they do. So just make sure you're separating those things. Don't assume that just because they're Christian, because they're Catholic, that they're good at what they do.

Make sure that you're, uh, finding someone who who's also very competent. Take a shopping around approach. You know, you can interview a few different counselors, do the phone consultations, maybe have two or three options. And then from there you make a, a good decision. So don't be afraid to take those consultations, to just take this approach that I'm testing it up.

We'll see how it goes. You don't need to commit fully to someone before you really even know if you click with them. Well. And so test it out, see if there's one of them who you can really relate to. You thought really got you, understood you and you can help. And again, don't be afraid to ask a ton of questions when you're meeting with the counselors to really get an understanding of where they're coming from again, on the aspect of, are they competent?

Do they understand the human person? Well, are they gonna give you, you know, good advice. And then lastly, do they understand how damaging it can be to come from a broken home? If you want more info about that checkout episode 12, with Dr. Julia Sadusky. In that episode, we talk about how many sessions it takes to, to start feeling better.

We talk about the, the number one factor that determines whether counseling is gonna work for you or not how to find the right counselor for you. Uh, so you give some questions that you should be asking. To a counselor before you commit to doing therapy with them and then how to make the most out of counseling, like what you need to do in order to make the most out of it.

Again, that's episode 12.

So at ReSTOR, you probably know we are building a network of counselors that we trust that we vet that we recommend to you. And so if you wanna find a counselor, some of the benefits of using our network is that it's gonna save you a lot of time and effort in searching. For a counselor, we're gonna connect you with a, a trained profession who can give you the help that you need, give you the tools that you need to heal so you can feel a hole again and again, these are people that we vetted that we trust that we recommend the counseling network at this time at this recording is not fully ready, but it will be.

And so if you wanna get on the wait list, you can just go to restored ministry.com. Coaching again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/coaching. You just fill out a simple form and then we're gonna connect you with a counselor. And so thanks for your patience. As we build that out, it's a huge project that we're working on, but it's really important.

Again, that's restored ministry.com. Slash coaching. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 40. Again, restored ministry.com/four. Thank you so much for listening. Hope this has been useful for you or maybe someone, you know, if it has been, I invite you to subscribe and to share this podcast with someone, you know, who could use it.

Always, remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#039: The Anatomy of a Wound & How to Heal | Dr. Bob Schuchts, PhD

As a psychologist, author, and speaker, Dr. Bob Schuchts has dedicated his life to helping people heal their brokenness. 

In this episode, he offers his expertise on healing, but he doesn’t stop there. He also shares how his parents’ broken marriage deeply affected him. It took years, but he did find healing - for himself and even his family. We delve into that and more:

• The anatomy of a wound

• How the healing process works

• 1 tip you can do today to heal

Register: Dr. Bob’s Healing Retreat

Buy the Book: Be Healed [affiliate link]

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Books by Dr. Bob Schuchts

  • Be Healed: A Guide to Encountering the Powerful Love of Jesus in Your Life

  • Be Devoted: Restoring Friendship, Passion, and Communion in Your Marriage

  • Be Transformed: The Healing Power of the Sacraments

  • Be Restored: Healing Our Sexual Wounds through Jesus' Merciful Love

  • Forty Weeks:: A Journey of Healing and Transformation for Priests 

  • Real Suffering: Finding Hope and Healing in the Trials of Life

• Book by Jay Stringer

  • Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing

• Follow Dr. Bob

  • John Paul II Healing Center

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Today, I'm joined by Dr. Bob Schutz on the show. Dr. Bob is a psychologist. He's an author speaker, and he's been a therapist for over 30 years and he is helped so many people to heal and feel whole again, he's very experienced and he's truly an expert when it comes to brokenness and healing, but he's actually also a child of divorce.

And so in this show, we talk about his story. We talk about how his dad's alcoholism was a big part of the reason that his parents' marriage broke apart. There was infidelity involved and he gets into some of that. And he says that when his dad left. To him, it felt like an emotional abortion. And he explains exactly what he means by that.

He also explains how the breakdown of his parents' marriage affected him over the years, and also how he's found healing, not only for himself, but how he helped his entire family to heal as well. But he also gets into how his own struggles within his marriage really were rooted in the breakdown of his family.

And he almost went down the same path as his parents. Then we get into the anatomy of a wound. We talk about how a wound works. Like, what are the pieces of a wound? He explains the three layers of a wound. We also get into the healing process. He explains how healing works, what are the steps and the healing process.

And we touch on some of the barriers that prevent healing as well. And then finally he gives encouragement and advice to, to anyone listening right now who just feels broken, who feels stuck, especially because of the trauma that you've experienced in your families. He just gives one tip that you can do today to begin or continue healing.

This conversation's so good, so valuable. And so keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 39 and like I mentioned, I'm joined today by Dr. Bob. Shoot Dr. Bob is the founder of the John poll II healing center.

He's a nationally renowned speaker. He is also spoken overseas. Dr. Bob is the author of the book be healed. He's also the author of the book be transformed. As I mentioned, Dr. Bob has spent more than 30 years as a therapist, but he's also taught graduate and undergraduate courses in marriage and family relationships, human development, applied psychology and marriage and family therapy.

He held adjunct professor positions at Florida state university, Tallahassee community college, and the center for biblical studies in Tallahassee, Florida. He's also taught courses at the theology of the body Institute and the August. Institute as you find it in a second, Dr. Bob's so competent when it comes to helping people heal so they can feel whole again, a quick disclaimer, for any of you listening, who aren't religious, uh, just wanna let you know that we do talk about God and faith in this episode.

And if that's you, I'm so glad that you're here. We obviously exist to serve everyone regardless of their background or their faith. But when we bring guests on the show, if faith and their relationship with God has been a big part of their healing, their story, we let 'em talk about it. And so we're not a solely religious show, but we're also not a solely secular show.

We kind of mix between the two. And so my challenge to you is to keep an open mind, go into this episode with an open mind. And even if you were to take all the parts out where we talk about God, you're still gonna gain so much from this episode. So that's my challenge. You keep an open mind, everyone. I'm so thrilled to share this conversation with you.

Here it is

Dr. Bob, thank you so much for joining us. Hey, Joey, it's great to be with you. I love what you're doing. Thank you. You, you as well. And there's so much that we can talk about, you have so much expertise in helping people heal and feel whole again. And I wanna get into all of that, but to start out, I'm actually interested in your story.

Like so many people listening, you also come from a broken home. And so if you're comfortable with it, what happened there? Tell us the story. Yeah, it's interesting. We're having this interview on my dad's birthday. He would've been 86, so a lot of my story involves him and I have a great love for him, but it was a difficult season in our life.

I was, um, I'm second oldest of seven children and then three more by his remarriages, but I was actually very close to my dad and, and remained that way through his whole life. And you know, my whole life mm-hmm . But during the early years of my teenage years, from about 11 to 14, things got tumultuous at home.

I didn't realize at the time that he was beginning to drink heavily and stay away from home and also having affairs at the time, but just finally all blew up when he left, when I was 14 and I didn't see him for two years just crushing, you know, the, wow. I wanted to be like him. I, you know, I loved him. He, he was a good disciplinarian and a good friend.

He used to come in, bless us every night before we go to bed, all the children with me and my mom and taught me about the faith. I would sit next to him at mass and we'd get quizzed on the way home. So mine, isn't the typical story of a lot of resentment towards the parent because they weren't a good parent.

I, you know, I had a deep love and, but I think in some ways it made the divorce harder. I've heard other people say that, you know, as a relief at some level when their dad left or their mom left, because it was so terrible at home. For me, it wasn't that case. Sure. And so if, if for me the best way that I can describe it, It was like an emotional abortion.

Hmm. It was like, it was like a ripping apart of a bond. And, uh, like my dad had died. In fact, you know, I, I laid there at night as a 13, 14 year old. Wondering if I'd ever see him again, wondering if he was alive, wondering if he'd go to heaven or hell or hell if he died. And, you know, so it was, it was just really in that sense, even in the present was really painful, difficult, but the reality is I didn't deal with the pain for many years at, at the time there was a lot of anxiety.

What I now can see as depression is somewhat humorous to me, but it wasn't humorous back then is my uncle. My mother's brother was also going through a hard time. We moved in with them for a little while and he and I painted his entire room black in terms, even his windows. Hmm. I sit there and say, what would motivate me to want paint?

Somebody's. Window black and up with is depression, you know? Right. Uh, it's kind of like in that stage when all the pain is there, uh, you just, your heart shuts down. And I look back and I say, I wasn't aware of being depressed at the time, but I had the symptoms. I was, I, uh, withdrawing from people. I was in sports.

I, I, you know, I wasn't a great basketball player, but I scoring like 20 points, a game down to zero. After that in school, I was a good student, went down to struggling in school for that next year. I began to pull away from relationships. And then for me and all of my brothers and sisters, as we talk about this, and we would have lots of talks later on with my dad.

We all had a lot of feeling of not being safe. You know, it's like my dad. Being present was a protector in the home. And when he wasn't there, there was like this fear and this lack of protection. In fact, when we moved down to south Florida, our house was down to south Florida is broken into a couple times, and we never felt that insecurity prior to my dad leaving.

Wow. I can relate to that in a lot of levels. I remember as a boy, uh, we had this white minivan and I remember, you know, even being really young, like sitting in my car seat and, you know, coming home from a family party or something. My, you know, dad was driving. Mom was in the passenger seat, my siblings and I were all there.

And I remember just feeling so safe and, and like the presence of my father safe in the presence of my family. And that all changed for me too. So I can relate to that. And some of the other things that you said, and it's so interesting how we can walk around in the world, so broken and struggling and never really become fully aware of it or, or never at least become aware of the root cause of it.

We blame something else. Yeah. And it's such a, a lie in our culture right now that divorce kids and divorce do fine. And it's, you know, if, if you were to look at our family and the measures of success of school and sports and work, and all this would say there's no effect, but every single one of us would be able to say, no, the effects were deep and profound, but it took us a lot of years.

to be aware of how much it affected us. Yeah. I couldn't agree more with that. And that's the common trend that we see from the stories that we hear, the research that we read, and it's really unmistakable. Once you start to talk to people like us who come from broken families or read the research yeah.

That this really profoundly impacts people for years, for years and years. And there is a possibility for healing. There's so much hope at which we'll get into, but it, we have to really start with the fact that this is devastating. This is a really difficult thing. Even in those situations where it may be necessary, it's still a really difficult thing to go through.

Yeah. Yeah. Even, even when the situation at home is horrible, there's still a great loss of two parents raising children and loving each other and providing security there. So, uh, I think sometimes the divorce starts way before the parents separate in, in the hearts of the. Absolutely. Yeah, we, we say that it's, it's not like this, uh, random event.

It's not like an Adam bomb that went off and like, oh, I don't know where that came from. Right. It's been building for years. And now it's the, the summit, the pinnacle of a really messy situation. You mentioned a little bit how it affected you. Was there anything else that you observed over the years following the breakdown in your family and how it affected you?

Well, I think the biggest effect was in trust. I remember, again, this didn't come up until I got married and had children, but I remember, uh, well, I, it was actually before, when I was dating my wife. I remember having this insecurity jealousy, particularly when she would relate to men. And she was just a very friendly, loving person, but I would, I would have this anxiety and I, I couldn't identify it as anxiety.

Then I, I identified it as she was doing something wrong in my mind, but it, but it wasn't until I experienced healing in that area. And we can talk about that a little later, but I didn't, I wasn't aware of how deeply the loss of my dad affected my trust levels and my ability to feel secure in relationships.

And it was only after some of those areas were healed and the, the pain was released that I could then trust at another level that I couldn't before. And, you know, to me, that's still ongoing in some ways, you know, the it's, it's like, uh, such a painful loss that it affects trust. You know, it's like I trusted it affected my trust in God and affected my trust in my dad, but it also affected my capacity to trust anybody.

Hmm. I've seen that same thing in my life and the lives of the people that we work with. I, uh, I always say that healing is really an infinite goal. Yep. You mentioned that, you know, you're still dealing with some. I can totally relate too. You know, I've made a lot of progress and I know you've made tons of progress in your personal life, and you're now helping, you know, hundreds and thousands of people heal.

But yeah, healing is certainly an infinite goal. It's like fitness. I think that's the best example. We never wake up one day and say, okay, I'm done. Like I've reached the pinnacle of fitness. I will never work out again. I'll never eat healthy again. I'm done. We of course need to continue on that path, even though we can, you know, make real progress and find closure in certain areas of our lives.

Yeah. Uh, it's, it's real and it's, it's, uh, makes a huge difference. And without it, we can just repeat the trauma in one way or another, you know, without really engaging and healing, we can either go through. In fact, it's part of my story. I was, I never wanted to divorce because I knew the damage, but I got to the place where it felt like I was being swept down this corridor because I hadn't dealt with a pain in my own heart.

It was ho it was terrifying to me. It was really, that was really the darkest time in my life was those year and a half where I was struggling with that. And it was. Only in the healing of that, that I could freely give my heart to my wife, uh, in a way that I couldn't before that. And, and then even though I could always do it with my children, it was, it was a greater security for them when that healing took place.

That's beautiful. Yeah. And it made a huge difference. And then the healing then started taking place with my brothers and sisters, my parents, the whole family together. It's just, it's a beautiful story of God's redemption. And what did you do in. Wow. So the cycle can work in the opposite, um, extreme as well.

AB absolutely. Absolutely. That's really encouraging because I think so many of us who come from broken homes, everyone listening right now, often we see the brokenness past generation to generation and, you know, the cycle of divorce is just repeating and that's really why we exist at store. We wanna reverse the cycle of divorce by helping young people heal and build virtue because the sad truth is that, you know, when you come from a broken family, uh, you're much more likely to get divorced yourself, statistically.

And so we, we believe that if we can help people to heal and build virtue, then they're gonna be these strong individuals who build good marriages and good marriages of course, are the foundation of, uh, strong families and strong families are gonna transform our world. And so it's really, this is so vital that we get this right.

It is so vital. It is really vital. It's the, it's the core of everything, uh, because. So much of what we're dealing with in society is the breakdown in the family. And you can look at almost every social indicator of distress in our society, and it's one way or another, it goes back to a loss of faith and a loss of, uh, secure love in the family.

Wow. Incredible. And I want to get into that before we do, uh, what are a couple things in your life that were really, really helpful on a personal level? I know again, you help people on a professional level now, but I'm curious, like personally you, what, what were one or two things that really helped you to heal?

Wow, it's gonna be difficult to identify one or two cause there's hundreds, but sure. I think right away, I, I really had a, a father void in my teenage years without my dad there. And so right away, good solid men coaches and you know, one summer coaches, one was a professional football player that I worked out with.

That was in the right next to the school I went to, who took me under his wing, brought me to Christian camp fellowship, Christian athlete, camp, summer camp. And you know, those, those had a tremendous impact. I don't know where I would've gone without having those kind of godly male influences. My mother obviously was still in faith and everything, but a mother can't give what a father can give.

And because these coaches and this professional athlete, as men got engaged in my life, it made a big difference in terms of forming me. And, you know, we see this statistic as when a mother continues to go to church. There's only, I don't know the exact numbers, but there's a lot lower percentage of the children that go to church if the father isn't.

But if the father is active in his faith and it's faithful, the faith of the children is like 80% or something like that. It's really incredible difference. Wow. And so having these, you know, having seen my father kind of fall off the cliff and his faith life. It was devastating, created a loss of trust in the whole, in God, the father in, in church and everything else.

But having these men who I could see were genuine in their faith and cared about me and were invested in me that made a big difference. So that's one that's. I would put that in one category. That's incredible. Yeah. And I don't mean to limit you there. What, uh, what were some other, I guess, really impactful, uh, methods or things that helped you heal?

I think the second was getting really coming to understand the church's teaching about marriage and family life. It, it, it all felt so intuitively true when I studied it. But I remember in high school, I had a course by a priest in Catholic high school in south Florida. And, uh, he was integrating faith in, in psychology and marriage and family.

And I had had no idea at the time, but I could see now looking back, that was the spark for my profession, but it was also. A foundation of truth that got shattered before that. And, and so just being able to see and know, and, and, you know, when you, when you see what's true, uh, whether it's in the church or out of the church, it just resonates in their heart.

And that's what happened. It was like, yes, this is the truth here. This is the truth of what I need, what everybody needs. And there's something very grounding when you can, when you can get past the confusion of what happened and just say, okay, but even though this happened, this is still the way of love.

You know, this is still what we all need and it's, and it's true and it's trustworthy. So that helped restore the trust. And then from there, I was able to build a trust in reading scripture, coming to trust the person of Jesus, you know, the person who had the integrity that would never, uh, let me down in that way.

But that was a tremendously important thing. And then from there to be able to trust the church again, uh, even though I was still participating in church, there wasn't a deep trust for the teachings of the church or those things. And then a, again, I could go on and on and on, uh, about different healing experiences, but those are pretty foundational ones.

Incredible. And I know in your books, you elaborate on that and I'll tell you guys, uh, listening at the end, how you can grab those books. If you wanna learn more for anyone listening, who isn't familiar with, you know, the church's teaching on, uh, marriage and family. Part of the reason that it's so helpful is because it offers a very clear roadmap, a blueprint on how to build love that lasts.

And that, that was so encouraging for me too. Dr. Bob. Because one of the things that the research shows, I know, you know, this well and anyone who's listened to the show for a long time knows that the biggest area of our lives that is impacted by the divorce, according to research is our own relationships, especially our romantic relationships and our marriages.

Yeah. And the reason as simple, you know, we don't have a roadmap for love. We've seen a broken model of love and marriage. And so when it's our turn, we don't know how to do it. We feel kinda lost. We feel discouraged, like it's not even possible. And so, uh, it's so refreshing to understand that, okay, God has a plan for this.

You know, if you do these things, if you understand, you know, this is the purpose of marriage, uh, it's so hopeful, clarifying, and it makes it way easier when you're actually enter into a relationship into a marriage, to, to live out that love and experience the joy that we're all meant to experience. Yeah.

It's, it makes a huge difference, even though we still need to heal into those areas. Just having the, the roadmap is, is critical. And for me, probably for you too, but jump all the second teaching on marriage and family, and particularly the theology of the body has influenced me profoundly. And my family, my children, my grandchildren, you know, it's, it's just been, had a huge effect in terms of giving that B.

It's been so helpful for me as well. I really became aware of it through Jason Everett. I heard him yeah. Speak when I was gosh, 14 years old. And I had already made a lot of mistakes when it came to, you know, pornography and Lu. And so his message, which really comes from, you know, love and responsibility yeah.

Was so refreshing. And so hopeful to me, he answered all the questions. I never even knew that I had about love and sexuality and marriage. And so, yeah. Uh, I couldn't agree more. We could talk about that all day. I'm sure. Yeah. yeah, probably any of these things we're talking about could be a conversation by itself.

Yeah. Amen. Couldn't agree. More. I wanna switch gears. I wanna talk about the anatomy of a wound. You write about this, uh, in your book, be healed. You write that, you know, there's various pieces and parts to wound, and I think it's really helpful if we wanna heal to understand that. And so if you would please teach us about that, break that down for us.

Yeah. And, and let me put it in the relation to the, to the divorce, because it'll become much more alive in this way, but. And, and be healed and, and other material, I talk about three circles as like three levels of the heart or three layers of the heart. And on the inside is just the pain from the wound.

So it's, it's trauma. And as we're finding more and more about trauma, trauma stays in your body until it's released and it stays in your mind and it affects the way your brain's organized and it affects the way every cell of your body. And so, you know, it, it affects our physical, emotional, spiritual health.

And typically trauma is too much for us to bear in the moment. That's why it takes us a while to work through trauma, but it's not that the trauma's in the past, it's, it's the trauma remains with us until it's released. And so it's. Through the experience of, of releasing the pain or the anger or the rage or the powerlessness or the fear or whatever manifestation that has.

But, but our bodies and our minds and our souls pulled on to trauma. One of the ways we do that is through our beliefs. And that's the next band. If you will, the next circle in its the beliefs are of two, two types. It's the things that we believe about ourselves, which affect our identity, the way we see ourselves, that's the beliefs we have about other people and about God and about life, which are we call judgements.

You know, they're the ways that filter our perception of reality, both about ourselves and about other people. And so in, you know, in the case of, you know, my, my experience of a trauma of abandonment of my dad and for you two, and there's a rejection in it, those are different wounds. There's a powerlessness there's fear.

So what we call the seven deadly wounds, all have beliefs associated with. . And so, you know, one of the beliefs and these aren't just beliefs as at an intellectual level, there's deep, deeply held beliefs of the heart, which is I'm alone. I'm not loved, I can't trust anybody. And there's a hopelessness that things aren't gonna get any better.

All those get, if you will lodged into the heart at a deep level, even if our mind knows a different truth or understanding knows a different truth, those, those things kind of hold, we hold onto them and they hold onto us. And we actually hold onto them as a way of protecting against the trauma. Believe it or not, even though they keep the trauma in place and keep us in the trauma.

They're, they're in some ways a barrier to that trauma and then the judgements we have to other people, you know, it's like the judgements that I made towards my dad or about marriage or about God, or about the church or about women, you know, or about drinking, you know, all those things that, that form perceptions.

that then play themselves out when you get involved in relationships, you know, a lot of those judgements have unforgiveness related to them. Uh, and so we work through a process of forgiveness, but also of really recognizing and releasing the judgements because they filter everything. They're like putting on glasses, that color, everything that you see.

And then the final outside circle is what we call inner vows or resolutions of the will of ways we're gonna protect ourselves. So one of mine was, I will never divorce like my parents, because I'll never want to hurt my children. Like I was hurt and we were hurt or I'll never want to hurt my wife. Like my dad hurt my mother.

And you say, well, that's a really good vow, right? Yeah. Yeah. But it isn't, it was good when I made it in marriage with the holy spirit. And that's really what I promise and I'm gonna love my wife for better or for worse and sickness and in health. And that vow actually kept us together. But this inner vow wasn't even conscious.

It was made out of fear and judgment. And in that it, it creates this self-protection that actually almost brought me into a place that was a very thing that I feared. And it's, it's hard to describe that, but it's, it's like I was so in fear of hurting my wife and hurting my children, that I didn't deal with the pain, or even with the conflicts that came up, you know, I was afraid of being afraid of rejecting or afraid of being alone or, and so those vows actually led me to insulate and protect and to control, uh, because that's what we do out of fear is we tend to control things rather than trust mm-hmm

And so it creates this whole vicious cycle of destruction. That you're not even aware of until you're face to face with it. And that, that really began my deeper healing process. It was 10 years into my marriage, 10 to 12 years into my marriage. Incredible. And I, I love what you said that it almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If we're not aware of these things, if we don't actively work to heal, we can go down the path of the thing that we fear the most. And I know for a lot of us, like you mentioned, our biggest fear is that we would repeat what we saw in our parents' marriage. We're terrified of that. We don't want that. Yeah.

Um, but often, like you said, we're pulled in that direction because we don't deal with the underlying causes that the brokenness there, that would cause us to repeat that cycle. Yeah, exactly. It, it, terror is a great word for it. And you know, you think of terror as a, you know, a nightmare or something. But for me, that was my worst nightmare is bringing my children through what we experienced and it wasn't even conscious.

That's the hard thing is cuz I didn't know how much pain I had experienced. But I knew intuitively that I didn't want anybody else to experience it. Hm. I think it's encouraging too, that it might not be encouraging for you, but for people listening, you know, it took 10 years into your marriage to figure this out.

And so anyone who's listening, who, you know, you've been going at this for a while, you've been struggling. You maybe feel kind of hopeless. Um, it takes time, but, but it's worth it. And you will see results in the end if you stay with it. And so we'll talk about that a little bit more. I love what you said also about, you know, these things being unconscious on, on many levels, you know, we can understand it, like you said, on an intellectual level, but at the level of our heart, we may still be, be stuck and unable to, to move forward in our life, to let things go, to find closure, to forgive, to do all the things that you mentioned.

Yeah. And, and sometimes we, we do kind of a GLI forgiveness of, you know, I forgive you without really dealing. The pain and the, and the beliefs and the judgements and all that. Oh, that's really good. What are some examples of, of those core wounds that kind of cause us to, you know, make those vows to experience that trauma, to have those beliefs that you mentioned, uh, what are some core wounds, especially for people who come from broken families.

Yeah. I mentioned several of them and, and I like to think back to the fall of mankind because all of these happened when we broke our relationship with God at the beginning, you know, at the story of Adam and Eve of, of the rupture that happened with sin, all the Williams happened, then, you know, shame and fear and rejection and powerlessness, hopelessness, and those still happen.

Anytime there's any breaking of relationship. And so whether it's divorce or whether it's a broken friendship, or we can experience those wounds. And sometimes all at once, sometimes some are more visible than others, but. You know, I, I really, when I talk about a divorce is kind of like an emotional abortion, uh, or a spiritual abortion.

There's, there's something to that because if you've ever seen what happens in an abortion, and there's just this ripping apart of an attachment that the mother and the child, you know, the child is short lived, but it's intense pain on their part. But on the mother's part, it's something that stays with her for the rest of her life until it's healed.

And, and the same thing happens in divorce. It's like everybody, I found out later as we went through this healing process, that it wasn't just me. It was all my brothers and sisters, my mom and my dad carried this pain with him. And even though my dad could drink and, and deny it for many years and go through a second divorce and go through the same thing when he began his healing process.

And by the way, our forgiveness and, and working with him, helped him in that. Wow, his pain was just the same as ours, but in fact, as I had an opportunity later, In life to pray with him, for healing and his childhood pain, even though he'd never gone through the divorce was very similar to my pain living in the conflict between his parents.

And so, and so we live with, you know, the words just don't describe the intensity of the trauma, but, uh, yeah, abandonment is this sense of being cut off from vital relationship and connection. Rejection is a sense of, I'm not wanted, I'm not chosen. I'm not lovable. Fear is I can't trust anybody cuz I'm just gonna get hurt.

So I have to protect myself powerlessness. I can't change this. I just feel trapped, stuck, helpless, unable to do something. Hopelessness is things are never gonna change. It's never gonna get any better. I'll never have what I want confusion is I can't figure this out. I don't know what to do. I, I don't know if I've covered all the sure.

All the, all the wounds there, but those, those are the seven deadly wounds that I talk about in. In most of my books. Incredible. I, I can say that, you know, when my dad left the house yeah. I immediately felt abandoned and I felt unwanted. So yeah. You know, like you said, the rejection and I, I noticed, you know, looking back in my life, so many of my struggles, especially with LUS, like pornography, it was just an attempt to feel wanted.

Yeah, exactly. And so, if any of you are out there dealing with pornography or dealing with those things, there's, there's real needs that are unmet in real wounds, underlying that. And when you deal with those deeper wounds and lies and vows and all those things, then, then you lose taste for the, for the thing that's artificial that never satisfies.

I, I would say every one of my brothers and sisters after my dad left, got into some kind of sexual sin. Wow. And there was no more example. And you know, it was just unconsciously following. Uh, the brokenness, like you said. Yeah. And in some cases I know it's an attempt to rewrite a very broken story. We think, well, maybe I can make a different, if I, yeah.

Go down this path part of the way and then change the ending, right? Yeah. Yeah. Which is again, go into powerlessness. We try to control and it just ends up leaving us more powerless. Yeah. So true. I wanna get to the healing process before I do one of the things you say in your book that is just so profound, is that at the root of almost every wound, we probably could say every wound, but let's say almost every wound is a deprivation of love.

And we've touched on this a bit already, but I think it's so profound. What exactly do you mean by that? Would you elaborate a little bit on that? Yeah. And I wanna speak it, bring it back to just what we were talking about is these wounds of our hearts. If you think about our hearts from a spiritual, emotional standpoint, our hearts are the symbol of love and God gave us hearts.

To love him and to love each other. And when we have a wound, there's a place where our level of capacity to love gets wounded. But what causes that wound is a deprivation of love or a distortion of love. And so, you know, whether it's unhealthy kind of love that hurts us, or it's the loss, the loss of love or the, the lost example of love between our parents, all of those things were, were made for that.

It's like, it's like the food that we need to drink and eat constantly. You know, the emotional, spiritual food is love. And if we're cut off from that, uh, in our family, even if we have it in other places, there's, there's a deprivation there that wounds us. And it, it's not just after divorce it's before divorce too.

Yeah. It's it's in any family, wherever love is in present, we're wounded and you know, it's really what sin is. Sin is the. a violation of love and it's the violation of our love with God and our violation, our love with each other. Wow, incredible. And I've always, you know, thought that well, if love is the meaning of life, if that's, you know, one of the reasons that we're here on this earth is to love and to be loved the greater our capacity to love the more free that we truly are, the lesser capacity to love, the less free that we truly are.

And so you can think of, you know, you can think through different habits, different acts, and you can ask the question, does this increase my capacity to love, or does it decrease my capacity to love? And you know, one of my struggles in the past was pornography. And, you know, if I'm honest, kinda looking through that lens of love and freedom, it certainly decreased my capacity to love.

And therefore made me less free because it taught me to use another person instead of loving them. And so that's always been helpful for me. And so this deprivation of love, doesn't just stop at love. It really impacts our freedom. Yeah. And so just to bring that all together, as you're describing it, it's, you know, the broken love is what led you to seek some kind of control over the love that you're missing.

And so there's a fantasy. in the pornography of receiving, being wanted, being loved, being nurtured, whatever those images are in the pornography in fantasy life mm-hmm . And then, you know, going to masturbation, which is a way of just comforting and ING of, you know, of, of changing the chemistry in your body so that you for a minute, get this euphoric release of pain, but it actually adds to a deeper sense of shame, a deeper sense of being unlovable, a deeper sense of being unwanted.

And then as you describe, it's also feeding this using manipulating kind of attitude, uh, where you then with real people, you know, I'm using you in the general sense. You with real people begin to relate to people as objects to be used rather than as people to be cherished. And then we get stuck in this cycle and you see how, when people enter into marriage in those ways, and they don't know how to love with a self-giving.

A mature chase love. Then it just repeats that pain from generational to generation. Absolutely. In, uh, in his book, uh, Jay stringer, he's a counselor out on the west coast, but he wrote a, an incredible book. You probably heard of UN yeah. Unwanted for anyone. Who's not familiar with throw it in the show notes for you, but unwant, his name is unwanted.

How sexual brokenness reveals our way to healing. And just like you said, Dr. Bob, he says that our fantasies and our attractions are actually a way to heal. Like if we really understand, okay, what am I drawn to in pornography? What am I drawn to? And, you know, whatever way I'm acting out, it, it can be a clue to the brokenness underneath the unmet needs that we're trying to fill.

Yeah. Uh, my next book is on that subject and I quote him several times and wow. I've found that as we pay attention to that and really walk into that, it really shows us where our wounds are. And so, you know, when I work with people who are struggling with pornography or other kind of sexual fantasy, I'm always asking.

Okay, what are you envisioning? What are you desiring there? And what's where is that rooted? Jesus. Show us where that's rooted. Holy spirit. Bring us back to the roots. And it's almost always in the places where de deprivation of love has been. Wow. Incredible. How it all comes together. Yeah, really does.

Well, do you have a title for your next book? I wanna make sure that it's called be restored. Awesome. Good name. I love it. Yeah. Be restored at the subtitle is healing our sexual wounds through Jesus merciful. Love. Incredible. That's gonna be so helpful for so many people. We'll be sure to promote it here on the podcast.

And we'll, uh, we'll definitely add it to the show notes guys. Uh, so you can pick that up. If you're listening to this at a later point in time, I wanna switch gears to the healing process. And again, we can do a separate shows on each of these topics, but for someone who's broken, who, who, but, um, you know, who has experienced a lot of trauma and who knows they need to heal, but they're unsure how to, uh, how does healing work?

Like what does that look like? What are the steps in the process? There's, there's lots of different pieces of this, but if I could put it in a simple process, I think the first thing is being with somebody that, you know, loves you, whether that's in marriage or whether that's in, you know, like I mentioned with coaches, whether that's with siblings, whether that's with therapists, whether that's with the spiritual director, whether that's with a good mentor, we all need to have a place where we feel secure and that place where we feel secure.

Has to be grounded in truth. What I mean by that is the love has to be genuine. The love has to have integrity to it because if somebody who appears to be loving us is actually just setting us up to use us, or really is not interested in being there for us. It just increases the wounding. Um, but having people in our life who can see us and know us and are trustworthy and have integrity and really know how to love in a, in a healthy way, uh, is, is healing in itself.

Even if we never do anything else in the process, being around people who love well is healing and nobody loves perfectly, but just in a grounded way. And in, you know, the person for me that, you know, Jesus is the epitome of that to me, I've I've received a lot of healing also in relation to the holy family.

Uh, just seeing what real love looks like. And, and in my prayer life, being able to enter into that even to this day, as part of my morning, prayer is, uh, just allowing myself to be little in union with Jesus, with the holy family and experiencing the love of the holy family. So the, the next pace, the next part of it is feeling safe enough to be able to share our pain and our trauma.

And, you know, for me, that was started with the things that came up in marriage. But then I actually had a, a panic attack, which I didn't know was all this pain coming to the surface, but it was around the threats that I was feeling in my marriage that drove me to therapy. Even though I'd been a therapist, I, I hadn't gone to therapy.

and in that process, I began to express for the first time, my pain, but it was really disconnected. It was just kind of like telling a story that I wasn't connected to emotionally. And I remember the first time I was talking about, uh, what had happened and, and my therapist was a woman and she began to cry and it was the first time I had ever felt somebody's compassion for my pain.

It was just like, wow, wow. You know how to process it. And then in my therapy, she led me, I couldn't go back to my pain from childhood. I couldn't get in touch with it. So she led me to talk about the pain and the present, how I experienced it when I would see my dad. And then he would leave where as a teenager, when he would leave, uh, after coming to visit a couple years after he left.

And I remember the first time in therapy, if she's asking me that and I, I had not cried in 20 years, I cried like a baby. When my dad left, you know, just. For 20 minutes probably. Yeah. And then I've been cry again for 20 years. And as she's asking me about how I felt and what I wanted to say to my dad, when he was leaving at the airport, I heard what felt like a teenage voice inside of me saying, dad, don't leave.

I need you. And one little tier started trickling down my face. And that was really the beginning of thawing. What had been a very frozen place of my heart. And not long after that, I had an experience of going on a spiritual retreat, which was really vital and a group of men that were really honest. And we could share our stories with each other.

It's called Christ news is parish. I dunno if you're familiar with that, but yeah, very powerful. And, uh, I had a, I had in that a time, I won't go into depths here. I talk about it in my NBU, but I had a time of prayer. Where I experienced, God's love, you know, the love of God to father that was profoundly life changing.

And I cried tears of joy the next day. So it was, that was the first time I really released tears, but these were tears of joy. And three months later, I had this healing experience where I relived my dad leaving. And as that's all happening, I just collapsed against a wall. You know, it's hard to describe this, but I just collapsed, sobbing, feeling the pain of me at 14.

And I also went over to that 14 year old boy inside my own heart and could love him where I'd been pushing him away. Uh, before that I also had compassion for my mother's pain and my brothers and sisters' pain. And that really led to a healing that started to transform our whole family. So my dad and brothers and I started going on retreats together after a lot.

Each of us going through spiritual renewal. Uh, my dad went through AA and was able to apologize. We were able to forgive him. We were able to talk about our story together. Uh, then there would be situations where our whole family was together and, uh, my dad would apologize in front of all of us and just beautiful healing times.

It was just God's grace in all of our lives. But for each of us individually, there's still this place where we have to go back and face the trauma and then really deal with the identity lies that got internalized that are still playing themselves out and the judgements releasing the judgments for giving and then releasing the vows and, um, just making, making conscious decisions to release and invite the holy spirit into those places so that we're living in love, not in fear and not in control.

So it's a lot more than all of that, but that's the best way I could put it in a summary. That no, that's super helpful. And I think the simple model, the framework that you just laid out is really helpful. And if people want to go deeper than going on your retreats, reading your books is, is the way to go.

What you said about, you know, the 14 year old, you just imagining saying, you know, dad, don't leave. I need you, man. That just gave me chills and almost made me tear up cuz it's so it's so moving. And I think all of us need to, like you said, go to that place to kind of confront that younger version of ourselves if we wanna experiencing any sort of feeling.

Yeah. And, and you know, there's a lot of resistance to facing those places because we don't wanna feel the pain and we don't want to need, uh, we don't want need, we wanna shut off our needs and just take care of ourselves. And so it took a while to get to that place where I could express that pain from a place of my heart, not just intellectualize.

Speaking of speaking of obstacles and barriers, what are some of the main obstacles that you observe in people's lives when it comes to healing? Things that prevent them from healing from going forward with this fear and control are big barriers, uh, unforgiveness, judgments, uh, vows, all those things we've been mentioning are barriers, identity lies, not feeling safe, not, not having a place where you can go and have somebody really attend to you and you have the room and space talk through it.

All. Those are different barriers. Dissociations also a big barrier for those who, who don't know dissociation. There's a protective mechanism that God has planted in each one of us to help us deal with trauma. And it's a way that we can compartmentalize the trauma and not face it all at once. And it's called dissociation.

So we can have a memory of something without the feelings, or we can have feelings without a memory, or we can just be. Knows something happened without having either feelings or real memory of it. And it's only in the process of trusting and coming to feel safe enough that that dissociation can break down enough for us to begin to express the pain.

So what I was describing is I had lived in dissociation of that pain for many years. Until I was ready in the safe enough environment to release it. And you know, part of the releasing is just grieving, you know, it's, it's going through the grieving process. Yeah. And, uh, there's so much to say there, but it's good to know that, you know, you can't overcome those barriers you have in your own life and you've helped so many people to do that.

I think one big barrier is often an unwillingness to open up to a relationship with God. And I know a lot of people deal with that, especially when they come from broken families. And the, the way that I explain it to people is, you know, when we're kids, the most powerful creatures that we know are our parents.

And so we tend to think, well, if mom and dad are like this, then God must be like this too. And in a very broken home, what often happens is we get this extra distorted image of God. And so we may be very. Sent to this idea of, you know, any sort of relationship with God where, because, you know, we, we just don't trust him.

We don't think that he is actually good. We don't think that he actually wants to, to love us and heal us. Maybe we think he wants to use us or something. You know, we, we project what we experienced with our parents. And so what would you say to someone who, um, really isn't ready for this God stuff? Like, can they still heal?

Like how do they overcome that? Yeah. I, I was looking for a quote here, as you were talking about it, because it's, uh, what you said is so true that was actually from you can't find it right now, but it was actually from former president of the university, went to from Michael scam. And he said, if, if dad was distant or frightening or mean, or absent or abusive, we come to see God that way.

And you know, God is love St. John tells. And so if we have a distortion in law, we're gonna have a distortion of who God is. We're gonna see him as tyrannical or as not present, or as not existing or as not caring or any number of things. And so it's, it's really part and parcel. You know, we can study theology, which helps us know the truth about who God is, or we could read the Bible, which is, you know, a great benefit to, to find out the nature of God.

But we can even read that with a filter. I remember for years I would read the Bible and I would just see this God who seemed distant, or God who seemed angry rather than a God who is love, who sees me and loves me and chooses me and is present with me and is the strength of my life. And so a lot of the healing processes, healing our image of God.

In fact, that's really the core of the healing process is healing our image of God, because if we can't see God, right, we can't see love, right. Incredible. And, and what's the first step in healing that disordered image of God, we can't get into all of it right now, but what's like the first thing you'd say where people need to start to heal that disordered image of God, to look at the people around you who love genuinely, you know, just don't go to God yet.

Just go to the immediate environment and who around you loves you better than anybody in a genuine way. That's, that's pure and true and faithful. And that begins to give you a little glimpse, a very small glimpse of who and what, and what it's like to have a relationship with God. So helpful, uh, about, um, your retreats, your ministry.

There's so much you do to help people heal. Uh, tell us a little bit about your retreats. Like what happens if someone goes on it? Maybe they're not sure. Okay. If I go on this retreat, like what does the agenda look like? How do they work? Yeah, we have a lot of different kinds of retreats, but let's say the most common one.

Is we go into different cities and put on a retreat from Thursday evening, Friday evening, all day Saturday. And it's usually me and my brother and sister Maryam, James Hyland. My brother Bart would walk through this journey with me and, uh, others on our team are there support. And these are also virtual livestream conferences.

Uh, so people don't have to be there to, to go through it, but it's a process of teaching, of sharing our own story of having experiences of reflection, time for reflection, time, for prayer, time to receive healing, uh, in those memories. And so each talk has a different theme. That's bringing us through the process and, and then within each talk, there's an experience.

And so people come through this and have profound experiences and. You know, just over and over and over again, people say these are life changing for me. There are some people who have the experiences while they're there for others. It's it's tools to be able to engage in the process on their own time.

Some people tell us that being home in their living room and doing it virtually created a safe space for them to walk through it. Other people say it was being with other people and walking through it with others and experiencing the presence of the holy spirit in the environment that allowed them to do it.

But whichever way works for people, it just having the time and space and the direction, which is what the conference gives the direction and the invitation to walk through this in a way. Gives a tremendous amount of hope and healing in the process. I think that's one of the biggest barriers. One of the most practical barriers is that we don't make a space or time to do this.

And that's why your retreat is perfect because it, it offers both a space and a time to do this. You said that, uh, people are still finding the virtual retreats just as effective as the in-person retreats. Yeah, it, it, it amazes us at first. We thought there was gonna be a drop off, but time after time, some people do it together with other people watching it livestream other people on their own, in their, in their own home.

And, uh, over and over, they said, we could feel the presence of the holy spirit through the whole conference in our home. And we thought we'd be missing that by not being there with everybody. And some of 'em said, you know, I could turn it off and just stay with what I was going through and experience the healing there and then turn it back on in my own pace.

So it could be really advantageous to do it that way as well. Awesome. And you mentioned transformations that people have experienced. Is there one story that just shows it so clearly that you can think of that shows someone who maybe came to the retreat, they were in a really rough spot, stuck, broken, and then coming out, uh, of the retreat or maybe some time later using the tools that you gave them was able to experience a profound transformation.

Yeah, it's, it's so hard because there's hundreds in my mind and I I'll just try to wow. Think of, think of one. Uh, this, this one actually was a, was a, what touched me is she was an older woman who had been living with her pain for 60 some years. She was in her seventies and on the retreat, she began to face memories of brokenness in the family and then sexually abused by her brothers.

And she had never faced it her whole life. She came through that weekend, working through all of that, having an incredible healing. And she, she was like a little kid. Couldn't wait to share it with us. The joy that she felt. And then the, the outflow of that in terms of the healing with her family, the healing of her heart, the healing and her marriage.

I I'll give you another one. Cause this one just blew me away. Just blew me away. There was a priest who came to our priest event, had tremendous healing. First of all, he read bee big yield. He came to our priest event. He had tremendous healing. Personally just changed his priestly ministry. He sent two people on his staff to come for their healing, but also to lead a healing ministry in their church.

And the husband didn't want to come. He had been suffering with depression for 40 years. Had not been able to work, had been on every kind of medication, been hospitalized. Many times nothing had really made a difference. Huh? I, I talk about him in my book, real suffering, but I call him Patrick in that story, uh, not his real name, but he ends up having this incredible experience of an event that happened when he was 12.

He had never made the connection that that was the source of his depression. But once he had this experience in prayer and actually experienced his 12 year old self receive the healing and also come to a place of forgiving his father for what had happened. Wow. He was released, went back to got off medication with his doctor's approval.

After they found out that it was lasting healing. He ended up talking to his family, his family, his dad wanted him to pray with him. He went and prayed with his dad. His dad received healing of his childhood wounds. And the wounds of that had happened between them, the mother and the sister. The way, it was just like, this just kept spreading and spreading.

And now they're leading a healing ministry and spreading this to thousands of people, hundreds of people just, I could go on and on of stories like that, it just blows your mind of what God can do in somebody's life when they just open themselves and, and how the impact of that just spreads to so many others.

Incredible, incredible. Well, thank you for sharing those stories. And if someone wants to experience this, if they want to go to your retreats, uh, how do they sign up for them? How do they learn more about them? Uh, our website is John Paul II healing center. It's www JP I, I all small letters, healing center.org.

And then there's just a list of conferences that are coming up. Some of them we do that are open to the general public. Some are just for priests or religious or training or for men or for women. We do all kind of retreat conferences for all different parts of all different populations of people. Find the one that that's there for everybody, or if it's a women's retreat or a men's retreat.

and then, uh, you can just sign up online. You can either virtually, uh, live stream or to arrange to go there in person. Incredible. And I know you guys, once a year, I believe you do a five day, uh, intensive retreat down in Florida. Is that right? Yeah. That's actually coming up right as this is being broadcast.

Uh, we're starting that and it's, uh, this year it's, it's virtual. There're gonna be a live Q and a and prayer ministry available for everybody that signs up. Okay. It's called healing the whole person five day and they can get on our website. And even if it's started already, by the time this podcast comes out, it's available for two weeks.

So they can, they can still jump in and, and take part in that. And you'll have somebody praying with you. You also have an opportunity for question and answers. Each day of the week on the first week and then one day on the second week. Incredible. I, I know this is gonna be so helpful for so many people and, uh, I, you know, look forward myself.

I haven't had the chance to come on one, but I, I will be going on one ear retreat. So thank you so much in closing out Dr. Bob, uh, what words of encouragement would you give to, to the person listening right now who feels stuck, who feels broken, especially due to the trauma from their family, the trauma from their parents' marriage, uh, what, what encouragement would you give them?

So being stuck, which all of us who have had trauma understand that that's a wound of powerlessness. So the first thing is just to name it. And then there's also a wound of hopelessness, which is, you know, this didn't get a change. So just to, just to name that, if you're a person of faith, I would just turn that into prayer.

God, this is a place where I'm powerless and I feel hopeless and I can't change myself. I need your hope. If you're not a person of prayer, what I would say. To be able to find some place that you can feel safe enough just to share where you are, because the reason why you're stuck and you feel hopeless is because your heart's shut down in those places and you haven't felt safe enough to go there.

And so if you can find somebody, whether it's family, friend, mentor, spiritual director, therapist, whoever that might be, uh, just to begin to share where you are. You know, I used to have a saying when I was a therapist, uh, you can't get where you're going, unless you start where you are. And, and so it's just being where you are and having a safe place to be where you are and allowing the person or the holy spirit, whatever you can trust to help you move.

Because you can't do it yourself. Dr. Bob, thank you so much for your time through your wisdom and for all the work that you do, helping people to heal and feel whole again. Uh, amen. I, I can be more grateful to, to you and your work, and I look forward to, uh, yeah. Working with you in the future and sending people your way to, to really go through this sailing process with you and your team.

So thank you so much for your time. Yeah, Joey, I love what you're doing and it is such a need and really grateful to have you as a resource for people that we're working with too. So thank you. And one other thing, we have a podcast, Jake, Kim and I, as a therapist up in Canada. We're, it's a, every other week right now where hopefully gonna do it a week, but we talk through this stuff all the time.

So that's another place where people can go if they wanna get in, get involved in it. Awesome. What's the name of that podcast? It's re restore the glory podcast. Restore the glory podcast. Awesome. Are there any other resources that you wanted to mention before we sign off? I know, you know, you can, people can grab your books on Amazon, but anything else that you wanted to mention?

Uh, yeah, we have a lot of talks online also and workbooks and, uh, online courses. People won't be up there pretty soon that people can take and work through on their own. There's lots of other ministries that are doing great work too, like yours and things like Unbound, counter ministries, and just many others around also excellent guys.

We'll make sure to link to those resources, the podcast, the website that Dr. Bob mentioned. So you guys, uh, don't need to remember all of them again, Dr. Bob, thank you so much. Thank you for leading the way you're really that the trailblazer and a lot of this work. So we're happy to follow on your example.

Thanks so much for your time. Thank you, Jerry pleasure.

One huge takeaway that could have been easy to miss. Is this almost every problem? In society is rooted in the breakdown of the family. Wow. That is profound. Like this is it. This is the root cause. This is the core issue of our broken world. And so if we wanna fix our culture, we have to fix our families.

We have to heal from the trauma that we've experienced in our families. So we don't just pass that on. And that single point how this problem is at the root of almost every problem is the single reason that I started restored. I think we'd all agree that there are tons of problems in the world. And, and there's a lot of organizations out there who try to solve all these sorts of problems, right?

You have addictions to alcohol or porn. You have eating disorders. People who've been abused, homeless, starving kids. The list goes on like there's endless problems and all those issues, all those problems deserve our time. They deserve our attention. They deserve to be solved. They're super important in their serious stuff.

And so we need to solve those, but often they're not the root cause they're rather a symptom of a deeper problem. Now we need to treat the symptoms, but we have to treat the deeper problem. Cuz if we don't solve the deeper problem, then the symptomatic problems are just gonna continue. And so at restored we wanna.

The problem at a root level. And so if the brokenness in our families is at the root of almost all the problems in our world, then if we fix that root problem, then we'll begin to fix all those other issues as well. And so that's why AOR are working so hard to help young people from broken homes to heal and build virtue because we believe that strong virtuous individuals will go on and build strong marriages and strong marriages are of course, the foundation of good solid families and good solid families are what are gonna transform our communities, our nations, and ultimately our world as John Paul II said, as the family goes, so goes the nation.

And so goes the world in which we live. And so it's so important that all of us begin our own healing process. If we've been wounded, especially wounded within our families, like we need to heal that brokenness. We need to build virtue so that we can go on and fix our broken world. But we can't heal alone.

It's actually impossible. We need the help of others. And if you want some help, I highly recommend Dr. Bob's healing retreats. You can sign up or just learn more about them by going to his website@jptwohealingcenter.org, that's JP. And then the letter I, the letter I healing center.org, or you can just click on the link in the show notes.

Once you're on that webpage, go ahead and click on the schedule button in the menu. And then on the schedule page, you can just look through the events, find an event that works well for you. Like he mentioned, there are virtual events that you can attend and they're just as effective. He said, and when you're ready, you can just click the register now.

Now, if you're not ready for that, I recommend reading Dr. Bob's book be healed. You can click on the link in the show notes, or just search on Amazon or wherever you buy books, be healed. It's really a great resource and it's helped me personally. And so I recommend it to you. So by his book, be healed. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 39.

Again, restored ministry ministries, just singular.com/three nine. Thank you so much for listening. I really hope this episode has been helpful for you. And if it has, I invite you to subscribe and to share this podcast with someone, you know, who could use it. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#038: When Our Families Break Apart, We Feel Homeless | Malcolm MacDonald

When our families break apart, most of us feel homeless. We lose our sense of safety and belonging. As a result, we go through life looking for the family we never had. 

In this episode, Malcolm touches on those points while sharing his story. We also discuss:

• His struggles in his relationship with his parents

• How he’s healed his relationship with his dad

• The undeniable truth that hurt people hurt people

• What he did to cope with the pain and problems in his life in unhealthy ways

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Those of us who come from broken families often go through life, looking for the family that we never had. Looking for a place to call home a place where it feels safe, a place where we belong. In this episode, we discuss all of that and more with a man in his late twenties, as he shares his story about how he suffered from the trauma of his broken family.

He opens up about his relationship with his parents, how those relationships actually became strained, because he felt like he had to pick sides between the two of them. And he mentions how, when one parent would badmouth the other, it actually hurt his relationship with both parents, especially the one that was being talked about.

He shares how he's healed his relationship with his dad. It's really a beautiful story. And he said it was so key in order to forgive his dad, to understand his parents, their stories, and the pain and the problems that they've dealt with in their lives. And so by understanding that it really helped him to empathize and ultimately forgive his dad.

We talk about how hurt people hurt people. Often when there is a breakdown in a marriage or a family it's usually because one or both spouses. Are really hurting. Like they're really dealing with a lot of their own personal issues. And so that obviously plays out in the family and the lesson we can learn from that is if we don't deal with our brokenness, if you don't deal with your brokenness, you will pass it on to others.

It's scary to think of that, but it's so true. And we especially will pass it on to the people closest to us, our spouse, our future spouse and children. And so the best thing you can do for the people in your life that you love is to heal, to take ownership of the pain and the problems in your life to take ownership of your brokenness and to seek healing.

And if we don't the dangers that will end up repeating what we saw in our own families. And that happens far too often. That's exactly what we're trying to prevent here. It. My guess makes an excellent point about those of us who come from broken families often feel homeless, but since we have that deep need to belong and to feel safe, like I just mentioned a little bit ago, uh, we really need to find a place where we do belong and feel safe.

Cuz we have to feel that void. We can't just leave it empty. And he owns up to the unhealthy ways that he's coped with the pain and the problems in his life. He talks about his struggle with pornography, with drinking drugs, overworking. These were all attempts. He says to just feel good and to drown out the loneliness, depression, shame that he felt.

But as you'll hear it actually made him feel lonelier, more depressed and more ashamed, but thankfully his story doesn't end there. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 38 and before I introduce my guests, I wanted to make sure you know, that we are now accepting questions for the show.

That's right. You can submit your questions and we'll answer them. On the resort podcast, they'll either be answered by my guests or by me. Now you can ask anything that you want, maybe you feel stuck or unsure of how to handle the pain and the challenges from your parents' breakup. Maybe you're unsure of how to begin healing or continue down the path of healing.

If you've already began that process, maybe someone you love or you lead is going through their parents' divorce or separation, and you need to know how to help them, whatever your question will give you specific and actionable advice right here on the show to submit a question that's really easy. Just three steps.

Go to restored ministry.com/ask Joey that's one word again. Restored ministry.com/. Ask Joey, fill out the form, uh, with your question. And then as we're able, we'll answer your question on the show. We'd love to hear from you. My guest today is Malcolm McDonald and Malcolm has been working in the field of youth and young adult ministry.

For the past eight years. He has worked with various nonprofit organizations, including the culture project, net ministries, and other schools and churches across the country. Focus on fostering community and leading faith formation. When he isn't in a youth ministry setting, you can find him exploring different coffee shops, backpacking, outdoors, going to the gym, or quoting the office in his spare time.

He currently resides in Dallas, Texas. So let's jump into my conversation with Malcolm,

Malcolm. Welcome to the show, man. It's great to have you. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Let's dive in. How old were you? When your parents, uh, separated in divorce, I just turned 19 years old. So I think it was a couple months after that. Okay. So you were, were you away at college? Yeah, I was just graduating high school.

Just about to go to college pretty much when everything went down in terms of like the separation and divorce. So you were right in the midst of it. Tell us a little bit about what happened and how you reacted to it. Yeah, so I just finished graduation in high school and I think, you know, there's been a number of years that have kind of built up to, uh, this point where there was a lot of, you know, there was a lot of division already taking place between my parents and, uh, my sisters and things like that.

So, uh, the moment that I do remember everything kind of taking place, I actually don't remember the conversation there, there wasn't one conversation about separating. There was most likely a lot. There were a lot of times that it was talked about main mainly with my mom. Uh, it was around the time that. I didn't even really have much of a relationship with my dad at that point.

Um, we were going through a pretty rough patch and I really was just talking to my mom and she was, you know, talking about it pretty often about the separation. And, yeah, so I, I remember the day, I, I do remember the day of moving outta the house and it was during that time I was going through just all of the emotions, kind of just going through all the memories.

I was sitting in my, my living room couch and all these memories of just growing up in this house. I think at this point I was, I lived the majority of my life in this house. I think I moved in there when I was six. So all of the memories of the summers, the goofy moments, Christmas holidays. Yeah. We, we would do funny, like lip sync dances and stuff, my sisters and I, so that , that was great.

You know, I was always for like one Republic. I remember doing all these goofy dances and stuff. We were actually, we're a really goofy family, just in general. That's awesome. But yeah, just all these, like memories were just going through with my family, but especially. Remembering the moments of my parents, uh, loving one another.

Mm. You know, like my, my parents laughing, dancing in the kitchen. I remember one memory of my dad during one Christmas, he gave my mom her wedding room that was, uh, her wedding ring that was formed into a heart as a necklace, because it could no longer fit her ring finger. So he took it and for a couple months, and he was going to this dealer, uh, working away to, to give it back to her so that she can carry it with her.

And that was a really emotional moment, not just for my sisters and I watching this, you know, we were witnessing the love of our parents, but you know, all of these memories, I remember flooding through my head. I was sitting on the couch, thinking this isn't ever gonna be again. And thinking that this is the, the one time that we're gonna be walking away and those memories aren't gonna continue building.

So yeah, there was a lot of those memories and recollections that was kind of shattering if you will. Yeah. And, um, Yeah. So all, all I remember it was during this time. Yeah. My relationship with my dad didn't exist. We had a really rough patch, like I was saying, uh, we really didn't see eye to eye on a lot of things.

And so over time as my parents were separating my mom, I was growing. I was really close with my mom at the time. And it's kind of just turned into the point where the conversations with my mom, whether it was in the car or she was cooking food, uh, for me and my sisters, uh, those conversations that we used to have growing up really turned into, uh, saying really terrible things about my dad and that really, I think drove it fueled the anger and the hurts that I already had between my dad and I.

So I remember when I was sitting on this couch, going through all these memories, my dad was walking through the living room at one point to get to his, his bedroom. And just even just looking at him, I was super angry. Just fueling all this hatred towards him. And there's all this fear of him at the same time.

So I think at that point, I, all I wanted to do was run away. All these memories. I had kind of just flashed into anger and thought, okay, well we're gonna be leaving, so I don't wanna deal with any of this anymore. So that was a very painful day. Kind of just looking back on it. That was not fun. no, yeah, no, seriously, man.

There's so much there. And, and thank you for, for sharing and being vulnerable and coming on the show at all to, to share this, I know it isn't easy for a lot of people. I, I think you hit the nail in the head talking about memories. I think memories can be really painful for a lot of people who come from broken homes and, you know, thinking back like you, like you did, I can do the same thing with my family and thinking, oh, those good moments where I saw my parents together where things were peaceful, things were, were good.

Uh, they were happy and, and then, you know, things fell apart and thinking back there's like this, there's kind of two emotions that go with it. There's like this gratefulness, I think. That man. That was so good. And I'm grateful that we had that, but there's kind of this sting at the same time. It's like, man, I really wish that we had that now.

And I've noticed this with a lot of people who come from broken homes. People like us is that we're kind of all looking for the family that we lost or the family that we never had. Oh yeah. We all want, we have that like deep desire in us and it can be really painful at times. So I think it's, it's great for a lot of people listening to hear that, because often we don't give a lot of attention to, you know, how painful some memories can be.

And uh, often we may even just forget about things that were good in our parents' marriage and our family because of that, the pain kind of just overrides them, uh, as well. Yeah. So both of those things I think can be true. Yeah. You know, it kind of reminds me of, do you know the Pixar film inside out? Oh, I love that.

Yeah. It's a great movie. yeah, it's super great. If you're, if you're listening to this, I really recommend. Watching this movie, because it goes through period of this girl from Minnesota who moves across the country. And they're going through all these changes, you know, school, life changes, friends, change her parents, you know, they're going through things and she just feels so out of place, not belonging, but there's all these little characters in her head that are representing different emotions.

What is it like joy, there's joy, uh, sadness, fear, you know, there's like another one too, but I think Kager it's. Oh yeah. of course. That's right. the best character that literally the best character. Oh my gosh. Such a side of tension, but there's a scene where it's a fight between, uh, the, the girl is going through a tantrum and the they're sitting at a dinner table and the wife is trying to deal with it.

And she looks over and she taps her, uh, husband's foot and he looks up and it goes into his brain and it shows all of them kicking back, watching football. he's like, uh, I think, uh, the wife is trying to say something and then as they're like, as he starts dealing with his daughter, The anger starts taking over and there there's that one line where he is like, all right, I'm gonna put the foot down.

All right. Price, the red button 3, 2, 1. that's hilarious. Oh gosh. So yeah, so, so no, no, I think it's a, yeah. And, and just to clarify for people who haven't seen it, that basically you can see inside the minds of each of the family members and, and other people throughout the movie, so, and you can see kind of how their primary emotions, those five emotions play out.

So yeah, go ahead. So yeah. Yeah, no, that's great. So, but what, what I was thinking is that there's these different emotions that they experience and they come out in these different colors. And so there's core memories. And a lot of the movie kind of goes around the core memories that are, you know, things like belonging, uh, home, life sports, but they're all very specific.

And the core memories are the moments that have really formed them. And there's this moment where I've seen change. And oh gosh, I can't, I can't pin the point on which memory it was, but there was a, a core memory of remembering her parents, uh, picking her up after scoring a hockey goal. Uh, cuz she loves playing hockey.

And I think it was a moment that her family wasn't around when she wanted to, when she was trying to practice. And I think one of the parents wasn't there or no, sorry, one of her friends wasn't there, something like that, you know, and the core memory that represented joy turned into both sadness and joy and every time that she thought of that memory, uh, there was that pain and there was that sting and it was like this happy memory was like both painful and joyful, you know?

Wow. But it, it kinda reminds me of like what you're saying, saying Joey about, you know, those memories we have of our family before divorce were really wholesome and there's some of them that I, I will always remember. Being really beautiful memories with my family, that we were all like, whether it was like joking together, spending time, my family went camping a lot.

We went, I, I grew up in new England, so we went to New Hampshire or Vermont and we would just camp for the weekends and stuff. We would take family vacations in Canada, really, really beautiful, like Nova Scotia, prince Edward islands. And you know, a lot of those memories will look back and after the divorce, you know, it's, it's a happy memory, but it's a memory that you remember, you just can't experience again, the same way as, especially as a family.

So there is that, that longing in our hearts for wanting that belonging. And I think, you know, that's, that is what we deserve as, uh, just as humans that we belong to a family and that we're meant to be in relationship and communion, uh, with family. And I think family, you know, it's the core of our societies.

It's where we experience love. It's where we experience belonging and, uh, fulfillment. And it really is a pathway to knowing how to love, uh, how to love one, another, how to, to love if we are going to have families one day. So yeah, I think that movie, like it hits deep sometimes, you know, it's like, oh man, I relate to this movie so much inside out is it's great.

It's a great movie. Yeah. Yeah. You wouldn't think like an animated movie would be able to like, get you so emotional and like move you so much, but I can relate to, it was powerful movie. And, and I second, what Malcolm said, go ahead and watch that movie. If you haven't seen it, I think it will. It will be, uh, helpful for you.

I, uh, man, I can relate to so much of that. Like one memory. I remember my siblings and I would play hockey, uh, in, in our house, like inside the house, we were kind of crazy like that. And uh, so we we'd have these like little hockey sticks, um, and we'd use, uh, laundry baskets on like either side of a room and then we'd have like a little ball or little puck.

And so, uh, my dad would often play with us and, and it was so fun. Like we would just be like sliding around, just like shooting the ball, like as hard as we could at the net, it, it was so such a blast. And we also would play hockey in the basement. We had an unfinished basement, so we'd put on our roller blades and we'd just be like flying around in the basement.

That was like way too small to be playing hockey in and, uh, and it was just so fun. So, so I have those memories too, but then also, you know, the, the painful ones and it's just, there was such a fracture in my own. When, you know, those things stopped and it was really never the same after that. Uh, of course, and, and it's really, really difficult.

And, you know, I find myself missing that and, um, wanting to, you know, find a place where I can belong, because I think what often happens is we don't really feel safe even in our own families after this fracture happens. And it's, it's really sad. And I think a lot of it can be repaired, but man, there's always gonna be a scar there.

And yeah, another memory. I remember just a little being a little kid in like the back seat in my car seat and just, you know, driving home from family party or something and just feeling so safe in the presence of my dad and my mom. And, you know, when they broke apart, of course it was like the opposite.

So I can relate to, to everything that you went through. Yeah, definitely. And, sorry, remind me how many, uh, siblings do you have? Yeah, I'm actually one of six, so pretty big family. Oh, wow. Okay. That is. Quite a bit. And, uh, brothers and sisters combines. Yeah. So one only one girl. So , she's the princess and then, you know, the rest of us boys, so yeah.

Well, that's awesome. I'm just, I'm just trying to imagine you. Playing hockey in the basement with all of the boys and your sister. That is . That's great. That's so, oh yeah. You know? Yeah. I mean, my, my friend, one of my friends sees the same way too. He's got, I think he's similar. He's got six, sorry. He's got five brothers and one sister and they're all like super rough and stuff, but she's, she's a tough one too.

I think when you're one girl growing up in a households family with a bunch of boys, you know, she's gonna be pretty tough. Oh yeah. That's great. yeah, she's awesome. We love her. She's like, I think we've balanced her in a lot of ways. I'm sure we've driven her crazy, but you know, we kind of ground her in some ways from, you know, just to, she's able to really relate with our kind of roughness and she was right there with us playing a lot of sports a lot of the time.

Yeah. That makes sense. I was, I was the opposite. So I have, I have three sisters. And I'm the only guy in my house. So I think, yeah, just growing up, I started getting more like physically aggressive and I wanted to wrestle and, you know, I would take sticks and just, try to like play swords or do something dumb.

And my sisters would get so mad. They would not have it. And I remember my sister getting mad. And so that was one time I do re remember wrestling with her. And somehow we ended up in the bathroom and we both threw each other at the same time, landed on the toilet. Destroyed it like the toilet broke and I remember my dad like running up what's going on and we look at each other and then we start, you're like, oh, she did it.

She broke the toilet. no Malcolm broke the toilet. so that was, oh my gosh. So funny, but yeah, you know, it's so funny, even in those moments of, you know, getting in trouble and doing really crazy things in the house, uh, there was even, yeah, even when we got in trouble, there was still a moment of, of that belonging and, and safety that you're talking about.

And I remember taking a lot of family trips in the, the car. Uh, we would have an, a passenger van, and even though there was only four of us, but we just wanted the space and things like that. Yeah. Those it's funny how car rides and family trips, you actually feel super safe and it's really, you have like a lot of good memories, just like being in a car, cuz you're spending a lot of time together.

You're not like having to say anything, but. Yeah. I just remember that being, like you're saying there was, there was the comfort to that and there was definitely a lot of safety, but yeah, after, after experiencing divorce and the family and the separation. Yeah. You just can't that, that's something you just can't get back to.

And there's not like a, I like how you said there's not like a place you can feel like you have like a belonging again, just because it's not, it's not that family life. So I, yeah, after the separation and divorce, I became a missionary for this nonprofit organization and they pretty much just sent out all these young adults and groups across the country for about nine months going to different churches and schools.

And you're working with a lot of young people, usually from the ages of sixth, sixth grade to graduating seniors in high school. And there was those moments of getting ready for Christmas break. We get like two weeks off. And during the summertime, there's maybe like two, two months that you got off. Yeah, that was, that was really painful for me, cuz that was pretty fresh coming from a divorced family and still wrestling with the reality of what was going on.

And so everyone's talking about, oh, I'm gonna do this with my family. We're we do this every Christmas and I'm just REM I'm just sitting here thinking I'm not gonna have any of that. I don't have that. And feeling like I was almost like homeless I felt almost homeless in a way. Wow. And that's when I would just call or I would talk to one of my close friends and say, Hey, do you mind if I just hang out for like a couple weeks, whatever for Christmas.

And I, I would just spend time with other friends and their families and thinking I could run away from. The feeling of belonging. You think that if you're not going back home, you don't have to feel it, but then when you're surrounded by other people, other families that you don't even really know, then it's also kind of painful mm.

Yeah. There is that like the importance of family is there is that safety and belonging you experience, but as someone from a divorce family, that's something you can't really experience, uh, in the same way. Yeah, no, I'm I'm with you there. And so again, kind like we were saying before, experiencing that in another family can be really beautiful and really healing, but at the same time it can be painful and yeah, that, that you said it really well feeling homeless.

That's super interesting. How else did you see, uh, your parents divorce affect you in the years that followed? Yeah. Well, that's a, that's a great question. Well, you definitely. Are affected whether you want to admit it or not. I think in the first couple years, I would just think like, oh, I can deal with this.

You know, this isn't going to really affect me. And then what I ended up doing was repressing those feelings and those emotions. And so whenever, whenever I was meeting people and getting to know new friends and, and things like that, eventually the question would be asked and I would always dread it when they ask.

So how, like, who's like your family what's like your family, like, and I would just dismiss it by striking it off and just giving like a two sentence answer and then trying to go into another subject mm-hmm cause I could feel like this, like welling up inside of all these deep emotions of, of like anger and sadness.

And I didn't wanna deal with those feelings. I'm also, especially as, as a man, it's, it's harder expressing my emotions and I feel like it. It looks almost like a, a weakness to kind of get emotional in front of other people. So I would always, you know, avoid the topic, not really want to talk about my family.

And if I did, like eventually I started opening up to a couple friends and I would really get super angry. I would, I remember this one time. I think it was getting close to, oh man, what was it? I, I just talked about it for a while. and I got really angry and I went down into the basement. I didn't know what to do, but I just wanted to just smash a bunch of things.

mm-hmm and I had this, why can't I think of, I had a punching bag that was hung up in this garage. Uh, I was living in Seattle at the time working at a, a church and, uh, I took some, my friend's boxing gloves, and I just kept punching that. Actually I took the gloves off, cuz I wanted to feel the pain in my hands and just trying to get this pain out of my system and this anger out.

And I punched that bag until my hands. Like my knuckles started bleeding a little bit and started cutting open some. Some of the, the skin. Wow. And even afterwards, I would just, I think that's when I realized I have a lot of deep emotions and it is really affecting me. And I, I think in that first year too, was probably the most painful, especially because I had a bad relationship with my dad and I avoided phone calls from my mom, cuz it would end up turning into conversations about saying bad things about my dad.

Didn't talk to my dad for the first two years. I totally shut him out of my life. And I would wake up with nightmares pretty often. I, I think it was happening at least on a weekly basis, but I remember just having all these nightmares of my dad, trying to chase me and trying to kill me. And I just thought, wow, this is really violent.

And this is, uh, I would just wake up in sweats and over time, it, it did subside the more I talked about it, but a lot of the pain, it was most painful when I held it in and when I didn't acknowledge it. And so that really, you know, I think it did affect me in those ways, uh, at least for the first couple years.

So there was a lot of repressing feelings and memories and avoiding conversations. Yeah. There was a point when I realized I actually do need to acknowledge these feelings and I need to find a way to, to deal with them. At least in a healthy way. You know, I think a lot of us it's, it's easy to find really unhealthy ways to deal with it, but that does absolutely nothing it actually makes it worth dealing in an unhealthy way.

I would agree. It just adds more problems and, and often more pain into our lives. I know those absolutely true. In my case, uh, speaking about those unhealthy ways that we have to fall into, what were some of those for you, aside from the things that you mentioned the first few months? Yeah, I, I grew actually even leading up to the divorce.

It, it wasn't even when the divorce happens, but I think in the midst of seeing my parents sleeping in different rooms, you know, seeing like arguments, taking place, you know, myself, my sisters being dragged. Conversations with parents about the other parent, which I think happens to I've I've heard of others that have experienced those things as well.

Oh's so common puts you into, oh yeah. It puts you into such a awkward position. You don't know how to deal with it because you love both your parents and it just doesn't make sense. But yeah, I, I grew into an addiction with pornography, uh, masturbation, I think I wanted to just escape reality and I was trying to fulfill that feeling of belonging and, and wanting to be loved.

And the divorce really kind of started messing a lot with those thoughts and those feelings. Um, I also gave, started giving. Peer pressure a lot more. After a few months after, you know, graduation, when my parents were separating, I was working in a job as a salesman I was selling a kitchen. I was so crazy.

Nice. Um, yeah, that was actually a lot of fun. I really enjoyed that. That was great, but that's awesome. I worked probably 70 hours a week. It was an unhealthy amount, but I just tried finding ways to get out of my home. And I started giving into a lot of peer pressure with the people I was working with. So I started drinking, going to parties and I started smoking marijuana.

Yeah, I think at one point I got my wisdom teeth taken out, which was very painful. I was given a prescription, uh, for oxycont and, uh, started using that, uh, more, I, I started taking more than the recommended amounts, you know, I, as it was starting to like thin out I, I, I was taking it as, yeah. I was trying to thin it out.

So I have more of it as much as I can for the longer period of time. But I was just trying to find ways to just feel good and not experience the loneliness, the sadness, the depression that I was going through. And it wasn't helping because afterwards you'd feel more lonely and more depressed and more ashamed of yourself.

Really. And yeah, I was just trying to find different ways of ex escaping the pain. And in the end it was creating a vicious cycle. Repeating itself, like a never ending cycle that just wouldn't ends in. I, I think it really, like when I, it was a couple months after that I started going to, uh, I joined the missionary organization and that actually really helped myself get out of that mess that I was finding myself in.

Wow. Yeah. I can relate on so many levels. You know, people who know my story know that I, uh, you know, struggled with pornography and that was such a, a curse and a poison in my life. And man, yeah, it it's like it's such a vicious cycle. You said that. It's like we're in a hole and we're trying to get out the hole by digging the hole deeper.

It's like, well, it's not gonna work. You need to go the other way. And, uh, it, it just, again, leads in more pain and more problems. And so we just, our left kind of feeling stuck and left feeling pretty hopeless. Like, you know what now, like I've already kinda started down this road. I'm already addicted to this or that.

And. I don't think I there's any way that I could beat it. And man, how debilitating is that? Yeah, no that's so for real. Yeah. So you, so you experienced those things as well then? Yeah. Yeah. And no, for some reason I didn't go down the road of, of drinking and drugs. Um, thankfully I, I, that was a grace because alcoholism does run in my family.

I don't know how I didn't get into that, to be honest with you, but definitely, yeah, the porn, the masturbation, things like that. I definitely struggled there and that was, that was my drug of choice, so to speak. And that was the way that I numbed pain. And, uh, yeah, it really, uh, was so helpful to hear the truth about human sexuality and, you know, Jason Everett has been such a mentor to me over the years and I know, I know you love him too.

And it's uh, yeah, it, it was so helpful to. His message of how, you know, porn is really the opposite of love. It's using another person for your own pleasure and, uh, it will destroys your ability to love. It destroys your ability to one day, have a, a healthy marriage, which I think we all want. And so, yeah, thankfully I was able to get out of that, um, similar to you and start learning to deal with the stress, the pain and the problems in life and in healthier ways.

So I wanna, I wanna go there, what changed and like, what are maybe two, three things that, that have helped you cope in healthy ways and helped you heal in those years that followed joining? Yeah. Joining the missionary organization was a huge game changer in my life. I, I, like I mentioned earlier, we were working with a lot of teens in different parts in the country.

And a lot of these young people I was encountering were also going through a lot of their own issues and struggles. There was a lot of family issues, actually that I, I noticed with the teen that I was working with. And I remember one in particular, I was in Vegas back in 2013. And, uh, a lot of these teens that I was working with came from, yeah, some really bad families, uh, a lot of gang violence.

There was a lot of family abuse. A lot of the, I was working. I remember I was working, especially with a bunch of 13 year olds. And I thought I had nothing in common with these teens until a lot of them started opening up and sharing about their struggles with their relationship with their father and were asking me questions about that.

And that was during a time that I was also trying to deal with that on my own. And so I was, uh, giving them some advice and things like that, and just really like sharing, you know, the pains and the struggles of what I was experiencing. And these teens man, they were opening up and, you know, there was a lot of change that I saw over the course of the time that I was working with them.

And so that, that was really healing for me. You know, sharing about your pains and your struggles, you, a lot of the times, I think we, we think that I'm only, I'm the only one that's struggling with this. I'm the only one that is experiencing this loneliness, this pain, this depression there's everyone else has things that are perfect in their life.

But no, I'm I'm I see. A lot of people have struggles and a lot of pain that they go through, especially, especially in the, in terms of families. So a lot of that became a, a path of healing for me, was, was helping others that were also going through family issues and especially in the divorce and relationships with parents, uh, who were experiencing divorce.

Yeah. So that was, that was one way that I was able to. Cope with it. And, you know, even over, down the line, you know, I I've been working, uh, I, I work as a youth minister at a church here in, in Dallas, Texas, and yeah, I think this has really been huge for me. It's so life giving be able to help foster community, uh, for young adults, for young people that are in high school and middle school.

And there's, there's something about that feeling of belonging. That's really important to me. That's kind of stuck with me. I think even after experiencing the loss of belonging from my family life, you know, there, there was something that I felt in myself wanting to, to create a place that was like a, like a second home for those that either want a sec, that wants a second home or don't have that feeling of that placing of a home life.

Mm-hmm . Wow. So that's, uh, been really huge for me. Like when you start actually helping people, I I've noticed that's really been a huge path for healing. I think another, another way that I've been able to deal with it, you know, I did. Over time. Yeah. I, I think acknowledging my pain, talking about it with those that I trusted started, uh, seeking professional help.

A lot of times professional help is given this bad rep that it's only for those that are completely compromised as human persons. That it's only for like, I, I think we would almost considerate something for those that are really mentally ill mm-hmm , but I. Anyone can experience healing when it comes to seeking professional help, because they know how to, you know, they're really reflective.

They ask really good questions and it's just a really safe place to talk about what you're going through without feeling like you're gonna be judged, that you're gonna be looked differently and they provide really great practical. They give a lot of practical advice and steps on your path for healing.

And that's something that I've been able to experience and continue seeking. So yeah, those are some, uh, some really good ways that have been good for me. That's given a healthy avenue. For experiencing, uh, healing. That's amazing. No, and all the, all those are great pieces of advice for anyone listening, especially anyone who's feeling kinda lost.

Who's looking around and saying, man, my family pretty messed up. And a lot of the stuff that's happened and pretty pain, it's been pretty painful for me. I, I think you nailed that Malcolm, when you said really the first step is just acknowledging, like the awareness factor starting with that. And then from there, you know, you could do, I think all those things that you said where you're talking with other people.

Going to get professional help you're uh, maybe even trying to reach out and help people who might be in a little bit of a worse spot than you are. I know that was really helpful for me growing up, because I dealt with a lot of things. You know, I dealt with anxiety, I dealt with depression at different points.

I went through a phase, especially in high school, just kind of pulling away from people, dealing with loneliness. And I ended up, yeah, just kind of becoming this hermit, like someone who did, you know, go out and spend time with friends. I still did some things like, you know, I was an athlete, so I was playing sports, but I just really kinda shut off my heart to other people.

And man, that will just hold you back in life. If you do that, especially when you're dealing with, with these serious wounds and mm-hmm I think often we don't. Give enough, um, validation to people who come from broken homes for one reason or another, we kind of just expect people like us to just kind of suck it up and move on with life.

It's like, okay. Deal with it and get on. Like, there's a lot of people who go through this. Um, they seem to be fine. And so you should be fine too. Um, but what we're learning through the research and through stories and through like this ministry is that's not true. Like this stuff it can be, and usually is very traumatic and we need to heal in a very serious way.

And if we don't the danger is that one we're gonna go and repeat it ourselves. Or, you know, we're just gonna hurt people or we're gonna, you know, do the things that you and I did Malcolm, are we getting these really bad habits? And then our lives just become miserable and nobody wants that. So, yeah. Yeah.

I, I love, I love your advice. I love what you said. Uh, I'm curious in your relationships going there. Yeah. What, what was that like? How did you see, uh, the effects of your parents' divorce affect your, your dating relationships and, um, and. Yeah. You know, that's such a, yeah, that's such a good thing to talk about.

And I think we don't really think how it affects us. When we walk into relationships, I was dealing with a lot of, a lot of fear of when there were fights that would break out or, or just like arguments that this would, this would trigger for me a lot of fear that this person would walk away from me. And I think after experiencing my parents walking away from each other, then it's almost a translation of, well, this is, I, I think a lot of it's kind of just matched it as a reality of, of relationships.

So yeah, I experienced a lot of, a lot of fear that things would end. I didn't really have a lot of hope that relationships could work. And especially when there were arguments that that would break out. So that was something that really did. My relationships that I, that I have been in, in the past, it's really, that's really, it.

It's taken a lot of reminding myself that that's not always the case. And if that person like really does truly care for you, they're not gonna walk away. Like love is takes work and takes a lot of, uh, forgiveness too. I think forgiveness is one of the most important things. And looking back in my parents' marriage, there, wasn't a two way street on forgiveness and that's really what is needed as a, as a basis.

Just healing, I think. And, and recognizing we, we are not perfect human beings, you know, we have weaknesses, we fail other people mm-hmm , but it's really just that mercy by forgiving one another. That makes a huge difference. I, I, I think that has been a big lesson for me. Those, my family struggle with forgiveness, which makes sense.

You know, you come from a divorced family and yeah, there, there needs to be forgiveness on the basis for there to. Improvements in growing closer relationships. So does that answer your question for yeah, no, no, absolutely. So I, man, and people are affected in different ways in their relationships. One of the things that I've seen as a common trend is that that fear that you mentioned holds us back from truly loving fully.

We, we love at arm's length or maybe we don't even love to begin with. And that prevents us from experiencing the intimacy that we all long. And so we're like robbed of this joy of this really beautiful thing of being vulnerable to someone who, you know, is gonna love you. And who's gonna be there for you through anything, you know, of course that's made it more real in a marriage than a, a dating relationship.

Cuz of course you're figuring out if it's the right fit at that point. But yeah, it's, uh, I, I think there's some real, real barriers there and about forgiveness. That's an excellent point. I think it's so necessary in broken homes because there's been so much hurt and I wanted to go back to something you said that you saw in your family and especially.

Talk about this because there might be a parents listening right now. And parents, if you're listening to this, one of the things we, I just want you to know is that badmouthing your spouse in front of your kids is just so harmful. Like Malcolm said it so well, uh, how it affected him and the negative effects that it had on his relationship with his dad.

You know, it obviously wasn't the entire thing, but it played a big role. And so, you know, if you needed to get things out, if you need to vent, you know, go to go to a sibling, go to an aunt, an uncle, a pastor, or counselor, your attorney, if you have to, but don't pull your kids into it. And there there's can be a tough balance when maybe you need to tell your kids some painful and true things about your spouse, but always take very, very much time and care and try to figure out, use discretion and thinking, do they really need to know this because the bad mouthing can be so damaging.

Would you add anything to that? No, I think that's really great. As a teenager, when I was going through that, I was in such a, a vulnerable place already dealing with the thought of. Separation of divorce. And I, I love, I love my parents, uh, even today, even though there's differences I have in, and there's still healing, that's taking place between my parents.

Yeah. I, I, I do see that, uh, that did affect me. Uh, I remember just thinking as my mom, uh, was sharing a lot of things about my dad, about what she was going through and the, the things, the bad things that she was talking about. My dad that I, I just didn't think was that necessary. Yeah. That really did hurt my relationship with not only with my dad, but also with my mom.

And it changed our relationship where I, I felt like I was kind of just taking her burdens as a mother and as a wife. And it just didn't feel right. It. It felt weird. yeah. I don't know if that's the right way of saying it feels weird, but yeah, it, it definitely like, I mean, it made me avoid calls with my mom.

It, it, it hurt my relationship with her. And yeah, I, I think as a parent, you know, those, those are effects that, that I have experienced that I've heard other, uh, other friends who have gone through divorce, experiencing different things. So the things that you, you do say to your children do hold a lot of weight for your relationship.

It does. Yeah, it is a very sensitive thing. Going through a divorce as a child, as a teenager, growing up, you're already dealing with your family going in different directions, your, your siblings, by going in different directions that not only does it affect your relationship with your, with your parents, but your siblings too.

It's, uh, very, very different. So words hold a lot of. As a parent, I think, yeah, I can agree more and it's difficult cuz the parents are really hurting and they need a place to talk about those things. And often the kids are just like the most available. They trust them. And so they just turn to us, but it can be, it can be so damaging.

I, uh, I want to go back to something you said too about the brokenness in your family prior to the divorce. I know a lot of times just the lingo that we use when we talk about divorce, uh, it is a traumatic event. It is something that's serious. It is kind of the, the summit or the pinnacle of a lot of bad things that happened before it.

But it's not like that other bad stuff. Wasn't there. It's not like this random event happened that just like went off like an Adam bomb. It's like, oh, where did that come from? It's like a lot of times there's just been so much brokenness, so much pain in the family for years and years and years. It just finally got to that point where, you know, the parents broke apart and there is something to say.

It is a very distinct and painful thing when your parents actually separate when they get divorced. But that doesn't mean that. There isn't a lot of trauma that happens within the family. Even if parents do sit together, but things are really broken. Right? Yeah. That's, that's so true. Just thinking about the events that have led up to it.

Yeah. I, I remember seeing friends going through divorce when I was in middle school, uh, even entering into high school a little bit and just thinking, oh, that's not gonna happen. But then, you know, after a couple years you see a lot of small things happen and, uh, yeah, there's a, there's so much brokenness, uh, that takes place over time.

Yeah. You know, like parents, like there's small steps like parents sleeping in different beds, you know, fights breaking out more and more often having those conversations with your siblings and your parents and just seeing events going down. I remember my parents going through a fight during Thanksgiving probably.

A year and a half before we'd gone through the separation and my grandparents were there and my parents were fighting and they were ignoring each other. And I could see my grandparents trying to hold it together. And it was . It was so awkward. Mm-hmm . And I remember my, my younger sister, Olivia, she didn't understand social cues very well.

Growing up, she just had a funny way of just saying things exactly as they are, that you wouldn't necessarily say in a situation. But I remember there was a really awkward moment of this silence and my sister said, Why is everyone so awkward?

I love it. I remember thinking like, why'd you have to say that out loud. Now I want to leave. we're all feeling it. We're all thinking. You don't need to say it, but we don't wanna admit that, you know, so gosh, it's, uh, it's so funny. Yeah. They're just like a lot of moments that kind of build up, but, you know, there was something like you said earlier, that kind of, I, I think who said this, someone said hurt people, hurt people.

Hmm. And I really believe that like, if, if you're broken and you don't go on a path of healing, you're going to hurt other people without even realizing it, it like, like you're saying like in relationships and stuff, the ways that it could affect other people is the lack of, of vulnerability with either, you know, whether it's like someone you're dating or if it's, if it's your spouse, that brokenness is going to tie down into other parts of your, your relationship.

So, yeah, I think in, in marriages, you. So some of the divorce that I've, that I've heard of, you know, I, I could see from E even, just from my perspective and my family, my, my parents were broken. My, my mom growing up, had a lot of abuse in her life, growing up from her family. And that really affected the marriage, uh, between my parents and myself growing up, my mom went to the hospital lot as a, when I was middle school, she was dealing with PTSD.

Um, she was in the hospital for a long period of time. Yeah. And that was coming from the trauma that she experienced. And, uh, that really did affect, uh, her relationship with my dad, obviously us as a, as a family, uh, my dad had a lot of things that happened in his family that he was dealing with that gave, he, he dealt with a lot of anger and took it out on us kids.

I didn't really understand at the time, but I thought, wow, why does my dad hate me so much? But , I didn't realize he was actually going through a lot. And it was coming out into the family. So hurt people, hurt people and, you know, divorce that take place, you know, that that could be. In every case, but that could be a result of hurt.

People hurt hurting people. So healing is so important, you know, like, yeah, acknowledging that you're in pain. If you don't acknowledge it, it's going to come out on someone yeah. Uh, or something or affect you personally. So it, it's not a one moment thing of a divorce. It's a multitude of steps and it's a many broken pieces that eventually break the whole, the whole thing, unless you start dealing with it, unless you start acknowledging that, that pain and wanting to see if there is like a way to heal from it.

Yeah. That's sorry. I just wanna, you ran ramble base on what you were saying, but you know, I, I just feel like that's, you know, that's what it. No that's super relevant. And I, yeah, I, I would say, you know, you said maybe not in every case, I would almost be in every case. I, we would, well, we would say almost always, because based on the stories we've heard at restored and the people we work with, the research we've seen, uh, there, there's just a lot of brokenness that typically runs through.

Generations, but especially in the parents' lives. And a lot of times the things that surface the problems that surface in the marriage are often because of unresolved things, uh, at some point in the past. So you hit the now in the head, you know, hurt people, hurt people. Totally true. And that's one of the reasons that we exist at all.

Our vision is to help, uh, reverse the cycle of divorce by helping young people heal and build virtue, because if we can heal and build virtue, we'll be these strong, healthy individuals. And then we're gonna go into our relationships and we'll build strong marriages and strong marriages, of course, of the foundation of good.

Healthy families and good, healthy families are really what are, what's gonna transform our culture from a culture that's just so broken and lost the one that's living, uh, a happy, meaningful, uh, existence. And so it, you you've said it so well, we can't overstate healing a lot of times can be thought of as this just kind of like nice and unnecessary thing, if you have time for it.

Cool. Do it. Um, but what we're saying here is like, if you don't do it, the stakes are really high. Like you may end up repeating exactly what you saw in your own family. I don't say that's to scare you, but that's just what the research shows and that's just what we've seen. And so now you I'm really glad you brought that up.

Yeah. Oh definitely. You know, you gotta gotta find a way to heal, you know, gotta acknowledge it. It's a lot more painful, I think not acknowledging it. And you just can't escape pain. That's really what it is. And you have to face that pain and it may feel uncomfortable and may feel scary wanting to just go through it and then face.

But from what we see, you know, what you're talking about, what I was going through and continue healing from is, you know, there could be a lot more pain. There could be a lot more pain and, and hurt in the end mm-hmm but we gotta go through it, you know, but it's worth it. It's so worth it because there's so much hope.

There's so much hope. I think when you can start that process. Yeah, absolutely. And speaking of hope, how, how is your life different now that you've, you know, gone through some of the healing process, you've made some progress now. I'm not saying that, you know, you're, you're done or your life is perfect at this point, but, but you have made a lot of progress.

I'm just curious. How does your life look different now? Yeah, so I, I definitely have a lot of growth. I think in the last few years, I think about two years after I went through the divorce in my family and I was still, uh, working with a nonprofit organization on my own. I really felt this pulling to, to talk to my dad again.

Mm, because there, there was still like a longing for, you know, that reconciliation, but it, it, I mean, it took a lot of courage to get to that point. What, what I recognized that I, yeah, that really helped me was forgiving my parents. And that's incredibly difficult to do because you see all the, the hurt and the pain that you, you go through, that your sisters go through.

And, and so I, it's not uncommon to blame your parents for the divorce and the separation in your family. Mm-hmm anyways, I sent an email to my dad I couldn't, I, I didn't wanna call him, you know, whatever. And I said, Hey, do you mind if we can have a talk? And so I wrote down a list on my, in my journal of all the things that he failed at.

And I, I was so ready to be like, all right, dad, you know, you were terrible at this and this and this , it would really bad. Yeah, I know. So I, I got with him. I didn't actually. Yeah, that was, that was very scary. Just, I, I was very afraid of him being angry at me being super upset at me. So when I got on the call, I, I had all these thoughts going through my head and I don't know how it happens, but you know, I, after a couple minutes of saying hi and doing a little bit of small talk, I ended up asking my dad to forgive me.

And I, I just started just apologizing for the failure as a son. And this was not how I, I was expecting it to go. But yeah, I, I ended up apologizing and yeah, I, I think I, yeah, I got pretty emotional and my dad started apologizing for all the ways that he's filled me as a father. Mm-hmm I think it ended up being a two hour discussion with him and yeah, I think it, by the end, we were both crying, you know, ever since then, there's been a lot of healing.

In my relationship with my dad and it, it was sort of a struggle, you know, here and there. And we definitely had a couple fallbacks and, you know, a couple steps forward. But at this point in my life, I probably talked to him multiple times a week. I, I feel very comfortable going back home. I, I started going back home.

I, I think about two or three years after. And so I, I actually just got back home from Christmas. Uh, I went back to visit him and I talked to one of my sisters. So yeah, I, I think that has been really huge. And when it comes to my mom, uh, we still have a lot of struggle. I, I still have some struggle with, with my mother.

but I it's, it's a constant. Yeah. I just think I I've taken a lot to try to forgive her and my heart. And I've, I've recognized over the years, she's gone through a lot in her own life, through her own childhood traumas. So mm-hmm, , I think that's made it a, there there's things I learned about her and her past life that I didn't recognize that I, I didn't know that she had gone through.

Yeah. And, and that really helped me to put in, put into perspective kind of the repercussions that have taken place over the years that ended in the divorce. So I, I think forgiveness is very difficult, but I, I think that's been really huge for me was. Just learning to forgive my parents and taking that step forward, especially in the relationship with my father, that's profound that you went first.

Like you didn't really plan on it, but when you, once you got on that phone call and that conversation with your dad, you decided that there were certain things that, you know, you felt better, you could have done better at. And you decided to kind of be the one who went first, who, who was vulnerable to start with, and then that opened up your dad's heart.

And that helped him to, you know, ask for forgiveness as well, which that's amazing because I think often if you were to go into that conversation and say, these are all the things you screwed up on, I would imagine, I know I would feel this way, him getting very defensive and perhaps, you know, maybe it would've started an argument, some sort of a conflict, but the fact that you went in there and you just shared your failings, it sounds like it opened him up to, to do the same.

Yeah. You know, you're definitely right. I went into that conversation thinking, and I think a lot of us have this. They struggle as well, thinking that if they only know what they failed at, I can help them see what they're failing in to resolve the issue. Mm. You know, like you're saying that actually it puts up a lot of defenses, uh, for the other person because you're attacking them.

Yeah. And I honestly don't know how I got to that point where I was able to do that, but it, it took a lot of courage. It's very vulnerable, you know, like you're saying, because there, you open up yourself in a way where you don't know how they're going to react, and that's a scary, that's a scary jump to take, but in the end it was, it was the best thing I could have done, I think in that situation.

And you know, we've, we've gone really far ahead since that time. That's awesome. Yeah. I, that's a great point about, you don't know how they're gonna react. He could have reacted really poorly, you know, not, not to say your dad's like a bad person or anything, but that is one possibility when you approach a person with a problem or talking about something that's really difficult that they may not react well.

And so it's amazing that he reacted well. And I bet that yeah. Was extremely healing for, for your relationship. It sounds like it was. And I also wanted to recognize that you, yeah, you sound like a pro at negotiation in a lot of ways. Cuz some of the principles you use are from basically people who are really good at negotiation are really good at having difficult conversations.

And one of them is whenever you go into a conversation to talk about something difficult, it's really, really, really important to talk about it from your perspective, saying things like I feel instead of saying like you, you, you, and because it, it for everyone listening, you know, if you're need to have a difficult conversation with anyone, but especially with your parents, if you go in and say.

You know, I feel that the way that you talk about mom, the way that you talk about dad, uh, it, it makes me feel this way. Then it's all about you. It's not about them necessarily. Like obviously their actions are making you feel a certain way, but you're not pointing at them, condemning them because of what they're doing.

You know, if, uh, if anyone who's listening here wants to figure out how to go into a, a difficult conversation that has high emotions. Uh, there's just a shameless plugin for a book called crucial conversations. Mm. That was put together by a lot of just different high, like business consultations, uh, and, and higher upper management.

And it's been really useful for both professional and all conversations. I'm also not being endorsed by crucial conversations, but if they do hear this, uh, you can definitely pay me because , I think it's worth it. so, uh, I love it. Yeah. I think it's very important to know how to, to go through those conversations.

I didn't know how to do it at the time. That was really. That, that was a very lucky, I think that that situation rolled out as it did. Yeah, no, I think there's a lot of great lessons in it. And the, the other thing you said about your mom, understanding her background, understanding her store, understanding kind of the ways that she's been harmed over the years made you a lot more compassionate to her, a lot more empathetic to her.

And you know, like you said, there's still room to grow there, still room to heal. But I, I imagine that that has helped so much, uh, like you mentioned to, to just understand her, her background, her struggles, her story. Yeah. I think it's really important to know the other person's perspective and in the moment in the, when, when it's like a heated moment and all these deep emotions start coming out, it, it gets very difficult to think outside of what you're feeling.

and it's easy to forget that that other person has their own story, their own feelings, uh, their own perspective that is different than yours and that most of the time we all think it's yeah, we all have different perspectives and it makes it much easier when you come to a better understanding. So for example, you know, I think a lot of us recently, a lot of movies have been coming out, showing these villains that have actually had a deeper story on Netflix Cobra.

Kai's. Kind of like one of the hits where it's the bully from karate kid. And you just think he's just like this, this punk, this bully, but then you know, this, this Mo this, uh, series comes out and you actually start to have this sympathy for him because you didn't realize how much he went through. And he had his own pains and struggles, and you're like, oh man, this guy's actually like, not that bad.

He's actually pretty good. Yeah. And I think that, I think there's some truth to that. I think no one is coming into the situation, uh, situation as a, as a culprit, but everyone has their own story. They have their own struggles, their own brokenness. And, uh, it makes it much easier to forgive the other person when you recognize that they've gone through things as well.

It doesn't make the situation any better, but it, I think it definitely helps to forgive. And, and I think that is the first step is, is to forgive in the. Love it. I couldn't agree more about the movies you mentioned. I I'm a big, uh, Christopher Nolan fan for those who don't know Christopher Nolan, he's the director who, uh, made the Batman movies, Batman trilogy, like Batman begins the dark night, dark neck rises, inception, memento.

You know, all these movies that are just like really thought provoking. One of the things that he says when it comes to villains is that people who villains, who are more relatable, um, in a way are more terrify. Because we can almost see ourselves in them in a way. And I think that's very true in life that a lot of times we kind of, yeah.

Villainize people or push them off to the side thinking, oh, then they're so bad. They're so evil. They're so, um, the things that they do are so wrong, but in many ways, it's like, well, what's the difference between me and them. And the honest truth is that there's actually not too much of a difference. Like they're just maybe further down the path that one day I could potentially go down if I'm not careful.

So I think, uh, yeah, I know Christopher Nolan, like specifically tries to kind of show that part of villains, humanize them in a way and not just say there's not just these crazy people they've, you know, been hurt. They've been through a lot, they've gone down the wrong path, for sure. Not making light of that.

Um, but they're not totally different than you and me. Wow. That is very terrifying. I did not, I did not hear that before, but he definitely does a good job of showing that in his movies. Absolutely. But welcome. Uh, was there anything else you wanted to add about kinda how your life is different now? How it looks different now, even though of course you're still in the process of healing.

Yeah. You know, I'm definitely taking some steps to continue, uh, growing in myself and, and continue the healing process. So yeah, I'm, I'm seeing, I'm looking for a therapist. Yeah. I, I just recognize there's some of those deeper wounds that I need to take care of in order to continue the process of healing, continue the process of, you know, forgiveness with my parents and hopefully one day, uh, have that reconciliation with my, my mother.

So, uh, definitely there's still, uh, yeah, there's still some things that I, that I go through, but I think for the most part, I feel much more peace with myself. I'm really happy where I am in my life. I can. Back in my family, more objectively without a lot of deeper emotions that used to bother me quite a bit.

But I, I do feel like I live in a lot more freedom than I did in the past where I felt enslaved by my emotions and my anger. But I, at this point I feel a lot more at peace with myself and I, I feel that there's a lot of good, that's been taking place within the family itself. There there's still my, my family's still healing.

And some of them won't talk to each other, which is normal mm-hmm . But I think, uh, there's much more acceptance at this point with family than there was, you know, five, six years ago. I hear you, man. And, uh, I'm glad that there's progress being made. It is a long journey and, uh, it's kind of this infinite goal where we we'll always be working on it to some extent, because yeah, I don't know if it'll ever be completely healed where, to the point where we're like, okay, I'm done.

Um, I I've often given the example of like fitness, you know, I never wake up one day and say, okay, I've reached the pinnacle of fitness. I will never do anything else with fitness ever again. I will never eat anything healthy. I will never work out. I'm good. Um, that's not, not gonna happen, so we need to stay at it.

But, but I do think it's possible to, to find closure, to learn how to, you know, cope with some of the struggles that we have to learn, the skills that we need to, to live really good, meaningful, um, beautiful life. And, uh, yeah, I could tell that you're you're well on your way there, man. Yeah. Thanks, man. I really appreciate that.

Yeah, man, I really appreciate you sharing your story. I just wanna. Give you an opportunity to, to everyone listening. Who's who's maybe going through a lot right now that they feel broken. Uh, they feel stuck. They're just going through a lot of pain, a lot of problems because of the brokenness in their family, whether their parents are divorced, separated, or maybe there's have really ugly marriage.

Like what encouragement, what would you give to, to people like that who are listening right now? Yeah, that's great. You know, if you are dealing with divorce or separation right now, or you're going through a lot of these emotions and, or maybe you're, you're, you're falling into different unhealthy patterns, know that you're not alone in that, that you there's, uh, a really great line from one, uh, a Catholic Pope from 20, 30 years ago, his name was John Paul II.

And he said, you are not the sum of, uh, your failures and weaknesses. He says, you are the sum of the father's love for you. Basically. You are not, you know, whether you're you're religious or maybe you're not, uh, just know that. You are not identified with the brokenness in your family. Uh, you are not the cause of the brokenness that you are experiencing in your family, but you are meant to be loved that you belong and that there are people that love you and that care for you and want to be there to support you.

And it's going to take time, but there is, there is hope. I know the experience of just thinking this is never gonna end. I feel claustrophobic. I, I feel like my world is crashing all around me. No, those experiences are very real and those, uh, those feelings are very, very real, but know that over time and over finding that support seeking help, man, that is that's gonna help you so much.

And there is, there is a light I, man, I can't believe I just said that there is a light at the end, but seriously, there is like hope there is hope for you. Mm-hmm and it's not always gonna be this. Time is so hard to deal with because it's slow, but it's going to, it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay in the end.

Uh, there's a, a great TV show. I , I highly recommend it. It's a Netflix series called it's okay. To not be okay. And it shows like the, these people that are dealing with their brokenness and acknowledging their brokenness over time. But one of the, the title for it is it's okay to not be okay. But I think that's so real is just to acknowledge that it's okay.

Not to be okay. You know, but know that there is a place for you. There are people that love you that supports you. And there is, there is hope for you, so good man. If people wanna connect with you, how can they do that? Yeah, you can, uh, connect me, uh, through Instagram, either pop young church. Uh, that's what, one, one of my Instagram accounts.

Um, I'm also at Malcolm Mac 93. If you wanna shoot an email, uh, you can shoot it at. M max Donalds, P Oop, plano.org. Awesome, man. And guys, we'll throw that stuff in the show notes so you can, uh, easily contact, uh, Malcolm, if you'd like to, man. Thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate you being here and just sharing and appreciate all your advice, all your wisdom as well.

Yeah. Thanks for having me. This is great.

One trend that we've. Ever sword is that the people who typically share their story with us to put on the blog, or maybe come on the podcast or share their story have typically been women. And so it's great to have Malcolm on, to hear from a man about how, you know, his broken family has affected him and what he did about.

And so men, we need to hear from you women. We wanna continue hearing from you. We really appreciative of all the stories that we've received, that you guys are trusting us with really some vulnerable stuff. And so if you wanna share your story, we'd love to hear it sharing your story. Actually, isn't just good for other people.

It's actually good for you too, in order to be able to share your story and communicate it, you need to reflect on it. And that act of thinking back and reflecting on your story, which so few of us actually do is actually healing on a neurobiologic level. It makes your. Healthier makes you healthier. And so, uh, reflect on your story.

So good. And then if you write that story down, which I'm gonna invite you to do in a second here, studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are actually less depressed. They're less anxious, they're healthier, they're happier. And then if you take that a step further and you share that story with someone else, someone who can really receive it and listen to you in an empathetic way, that is also healing on a neuro biological level.

Now it does help other people too. It can give someone guidance and hope. Like maybe there's someone who's five years behind you, or even your same age or 10 years behind you, whatever. And they're going through some of the things that you went through. They can really benefit a lot from hearing your story, knowing that they're not alone.

They're not the only one who went through that. Maybe learning. From you and figuring out, oh, maybe I should try this in my life or that in my life. Uh, but also just feel hopeful that there's light at the end of the tunnel. And so you can really help a lot of people by sharing your story and sharing your story is really simple.

It's just three steps. Go to restored ministry.com/story. Again, restored ministry ministry is just singular.com/story. The form on that page will guide you to write a short version of your story. And then we'll take that and we'll turn it into anonymous blog article. And then from time to time, we'll invite those authors on the show on the podcast to share their story.

Now that's not a requirement if you submit your story, but from time to time, we will reach out and ask, uh, the authors of those stories to come on the show, to talk a little bit more about their story. And so we'd love to hear from you. We'd love to hear your story. So go ahead and share it ever. Restored ministry.com/story today.

The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 38. Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful for you. I invite you to subscribe and I invite you to share this podcast with someone that you know, who could really use it. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#037: Trauma: What It Is and How It Damages You | Margaret Vasquez

What is trauma? How does it affect a person? Today, licensed trauma therapist Margaret Vasquez answers those questions and more:

• Why your parents' divorce, separation, or broken marriage can be so traumatic

• The antidote to trauma, which will surprise you

• How trauma therapy works, why it is so effective, and the incredible result she's seen

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More Than Words: The Freedom to Thrive after Trauma

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

A word that we use a lot these days and we use it a lot on this show too, is the word trauma, but what exactly is trauma and how does it affect us today? We dive into those questions and we give you guys answers. We speak with a, a trauma therapist, a counselor specializes in helping people. Who've been through something traumatic in their lives to heal so they can feel whole again.

And by listening to this episode, you're gonna get a bunch out of it. We're gonna talk about why is your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage? So traumatic. My guest shares the antidote to trauma. Something that she's discovered through years and years of counseling. And I think it'd be surprised by the answer.

She also shares her story, her personal story. This isn't just someone who read this stuff in books and learned it, but she's been through a lot herself. She came from an extremely dysfunctional family. She ran away from home and. 17. She was misdiagnosed with bipolar hospitalized twice. She says she was taking basically every medication that you can imagine.

She was super depressed. She couldn't keep a job. And she was actually on the brink of suicide. And as the last stitch effort, she went through trauma therapy after her counselor recommended it and something amazing happened immediately. Her life started to change. She no longer felt depressed. No longer felt anxious, suicidal, hopeless anymore.

And now she helps a ton of people every year through, uh, an improved version of the model that she went through. And so, again, this is just someone who learned this stuff in a book and has helped people, which there's value to that. No doubt, but she's been through it herself. And so she talks about how trauma therapy works, why it's so effective and some incredible results that she's seen in her own practice.

And so if you or someone, you know, feels broken, who's been through something traumatic in their life. This episode is gonna help you so much. Not only is it gonna give you hope, but it'll also give you some really practical things that you can do some really helpful information so that you can heal and move on with your.

You do not wanna miss this episode, keep listening

what to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce or separation. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 37. And before we dive in, I just wanna give a quick shout out to those of you who have left us a review on apple podcast.

Thank you so much for doing that. Sheele left a five star review and said, I've always said that I'm okay. That what happened couldn't have changed who I was. Of course it changed me. I still run away from many topics related to divorce, but listening to this podcast, isn't like hearing a bunch of psychologists.

Tell me all the ways that I'm really. Okay. It's so much more helpful to hear this is not okay. And it never will be okay, but I can be. I love that. Thank you so much slowly for, for that review. And I wanted to ask you, would you leave us a review as well? Some of the benefits for us is that it really helps us to know how we're doing to serve you guys.

How, how the content we're producing is helping you or maybe not helping you. It also gives us some more visibility in apple podcast so we can reach more people. We can help more people. And it's actually really easy to leave a review in the apple podcast app. If you click on our show, the official name of the show is stored helping children of divorce.

Just click on our show, scroll down to ratings and reviews that under that section, there's two ways to leave a review. You can tap to review. That means just clicking on the stars and that's helpful. But the thing that's most helpful is if you click write a review that's just below and that gives us more insight into your experience with the show and it doesn't need to be long.

It can be 60 to 90 seconds of your time. And if you need a question to help you prompt your review, answer this question, how has this show helped? We really appreciate the time you take to leave a review and we take those super seriously. So thank you guys for leaving reviews. My guest today is Margaret Vasquez.

Margaret is a licensed professional clinical counselor. She developed the N I method that stands for neuro reformatting and integration of trauma therapy as an adaptation of the ITR model. And that stands for instinctual trauma response model. We're gonna talk about all this in the show, uh, but with a focus on connection as an essential ingredient to attachment health wellness and post-treatment growth, Margaret has treated clients of all ages and backgrounds for over 12 years, considering an expert in the field of trauma therapy in this method of treatment, she has appeared on numerous television radio shows and has been cited in numerous books.

And she also has extensive experience presenting to non-clinical and clinical groups. I'm so excited for you to, to hear from Margaret to learn from here. So here's my fascinating conversation with Margaret Vasques.

Margaret, welcome to the show. I really appreciate you making time for this. Thanks, Joey. I appreciate you inviting me. I wanna start with a, a really basic question. What is trauma? What's the definition of trauma? The simplest definition of trauma that I like to use is any event that overwhelms a person's normal ability to cope.

And so kind of, you can kind of imagine, like, in that definition itself kind of contains the idea that that varies from person to person, right? Because what overwhelms one person might not overwhelm another and that kind of thing. So it's a real, it's real particular to the person. So I kind of like that, that like, understanding that because.

If we understand that, then we don't compare and go, oh, well, this didn't bother that person, but it really bothers me. And so what's wrong with me, you know? So it, it really all has to do with our perspective in the situation and our perception of it, and really our personal experience of it as to if we're traumatized by.

By an event or not. Okay. No, that makes so much sense. So if you would, what's an example, I guess, of a traumatic event that you typically see. I know, based on what you said, it varies for people, but what's something that's kind of a typical traumatic event. And I know some people talk about trauma in terms of like a big tea trauma versus a little tea trauma.

What would some examples be to help people listening right now who may not have a handle on that? Yeah, sure. Um, so one of, so kinda some of the obvious ones would be, um, abusive, any kind. You know, physical, emotional, spiritual, sexual, verbal, natural disaster or accidents can be traumatic as well. It it's so funny because so often people say, well, couldn't have been worse.

You know what? I went through, like, couldn't have been worse and I'll say, well, it could always have been worse or we wouldn't be having this meeting. Right. Mm-hmm cause we're still alive. You know? So I think it's, I think it's more, it makes more sense to compare it to what we're made for. Instead of couldn have been worse because if something bothered us, that's enough reason.

You know, if it was traumatizing to us, if it overwhelmed my, my year, whoever's personal ability to cope, then that, and of itself is reason enough for it to be trauma. I often say like in trainings, I call it trauma. When I'm with my brothers, we call it childhood. You know, so, and I guess it's just kind of make that distinction because people can tend to, to minimize and kind of beat themselves up for, for things bothering them.

Right. And kind of say, I should have been more thick skinned or tougher, or I'm being wimpy or self pity or, you know, or whatever that these things are getting to me. And it's really not. A matter of that. So some of the things that people typically think of as trauma are like combat or violent crimes, but it, it can really run the gamut.

One of the biggest ones that I work with with people is biggest meaning one of the ones that that's the most affect most affects people is bullying. And, and that's really sad cuz that's something that's kinda rampant today. Definitely. Wow. And it's um, I, I think you were a spot on in saying that a lot of people think of trauma as just this huge event in my life.

Like you said, a big natural disaster, something very dramatic that happened like going to war, you know, something like that, but it's a great point that it can be something that maybe is less dramatic. It can be something that, uh, a lot of people may write off as not being very important or being something that they should be able to have a handle on.

Yeah. Well, you know, I kind of, I kind of got scolded in this back in early days of practice and I was working with a young veteran and. He had been through a lot of verbal abuse from his father. And he said to me worse for him than hand to hand combat was verbal abuse from, from his dad when he was a little boy and kind of intuitively like just in my gut, that made sense to me.

But I just, you know, I just asked him this to say more about that. And he said, well, when I, when I went in the army, they gave me a gun and said, people are gonna be shooting at you. Go defend yourself. That wasn't how it was when I was seven years old, little boy sitting at the breakfast table, eating my breakfast, you know, and my person who was supposed to be protecting me was just verbally decimating me, you know?

And while that kind of really put it in perspective, you know, absolutely. Like in one case he was totally unprepared. And then in the other case, he had training, he had somewhat of an expectation of what he would be going into, but that wasn't the case in his childhood. Yeah. And I, and I think also kind of going along with that is the person that he expected protection from was instead the assailant.

Right. Whereas like over in, I don't even remember what, what country he was fighting in Afghanistan or Iraq or where it was, but he didn't ex he didn't have an expectation of safety. He certainly didn't have an expectation of protection from the enemy. Right. Instead like the person who was sadly. Playing the part of the enemy was the person he should have had, you know, he had a right to have expectation of safety and, and even protection from mm.

Yeah, absolutely. That, that makes so much sense when it comes to a person experiencing trauma. How does it affect a person again? I know you said it, it varies per person, but what are some common themes that, that you've. It's one of those things that just can really run the gamut. So I'll get in. I can get into more of explaining my answer to this, but, but it affects us physically, always.

And that has to do with how the brain encodes trauma, like the biological response that happens in the brain when trauma happens. So first and foremost, it affects us physically like it in a way that we can't even see, you know, that just in terms of how it becomes encoded in our, in our brain. Um, but cause of that, cause of how it becomes encoded.

Can emotionally continue to be experienced, like it's still going on. So you can take any of the painful, negative emotions from a traumatic experience. And, and those can continue like on a, you know, hourly, daily, weekly month in and month out, that kind of thing continue to be experienced. Like it's still happening.

So, you know, for example, fear, anxiety or anger, sense of helplessness or hopelessness. Those think things can continue to be experienced like way down the road, you know, for, for years and years, because also because of how it becomes encoded in the brain, it can affect us cognitively. So our ability to, to problem solve can be compromised.

It can make it really difficult to articulate things, but be able to put words on things, to express how we're feeling, which can then leave us. More isolated from other people because we really feel like we can have, have a hard time communicating and help getting other people to understand kind of where we're coming from or how we're feeling.

It can also affect just kind of simple things as far as like the ability to prioritize or be organized, can affect reading. Comprehension can affect our ability to do math, can also make it where memory is really hard. Just the ability to remember things, short term memory, that kind of thing. And it can also affect us spiritually just having to do with that sense of like powerlessness and helplessness and kind of that sense of like, if we're we're in that mode where we, we feel isolated and alone and like kind of like we're on our own, right.

Mm-hmm so we're kind of like abandoned and rejected can kind of project that onto, onto God as well. And so, and it can end up affecting us relationally because all these things can leave a person really feeling like. They're broken and flawed. And so then because of that can leave people tending to kind of isolate or tending, to feel like really kind of desperate and needy.

And so relying that much more on, on other people. And I can, if we, if we stay stuck kind of feeling like very angry, then obviously that can kind of come out and really unfortunate ways in, in relationships also, you know, kind of left feeling abandoned or rejected. You can. Tend to project that onto other people where it's not really objectively the case, but the kind of the messages that we took on and the traumas can become like these lenses that we then like, tend to look at the world and other people through.

So it can really, really complicate situations relationally. Yeah. No, that makes so much sense. So thinking through, you know, the people that we work with, uh, and have restored, you know, people who come from broken homes or parents are separated or divorced, uh, it reminds me of someone who, who mentioned that they, uh, felt like they were almost in competition with, or had to defend against their spouse.

And, uh, based on what you just said, how trauma can leave your brain, experiencing the trauma again, and again, as if there's no time limit on it, it's like an infinite mm-hmm , I, it almost made me think of that. And I've experienced this too in my own marriage where, you know, I, I kind of react to things in not a logical way.

It's like, I'm not using the front part of the brain, the, um, smart part of me. And it just seems like I'm reliving, maybe something that happened in the past where, you know, I, I found out that my parents were separating and that was certainly traumatic for me personally. And, uh, anyway, I could see how, uh, people who come from broken homes maybe could project, like you said, some of the brokenness of their parents onto their future spouse.

Yeah, absolutely. Because if we, you know, in our mind, if our takeaway is like, okay, I'm not gonna let anybody treat me. This again, because that feels really bad and really painful. And so then anything that, that we could perceive from our fear, right. Instead of from, from like real clarity and sense of truth, but more of kind of that nature reaction and going like, oh no, this is that right.

And so it kind of itchy trigger finger, that sort of thing. So, and that's actually for a. Biological reason because the, the limbic system, which is the emotional center of the brain takes less than 20 milliseconds to respond to a stimuli. So something that's a reminder of, you know, whatever painful thing takes less than 20 milliseconds to respond.

But the smart part of our brain, like you're talking about takes more than 500 milliseconds to respond, right? So that, that knee jerk reaction sadly goes off like 25 times faster than the smart part of our brain's able to, you know, kind of show up to the task and try to make sense of it. Wow. No, that is fascinating.

And it makes sense why? I mean, it makes sense why it is that way. Cuz in survival situations, we, we really want that, that part of our. The survival part of our brain to be that quick to react. But it is unfortunate when that's like constantly on, in, you know, our relationships and everyday life when it really doesn't need to be.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Kind of leaves us like wired for, for war, but war's not a really good thing to be wired for when you're in a marriage. Right. Or in a family or, you know, or with friends, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. No, that makes sense. Huh? It's this just a side note I thought of, um, I know, uh, a lot of special operators, like Navy seals and guys like that.

They have a really hard time with their marriages and there's some practical, logistical things like that. Cause they're away from home a lot. Um, and you know, I'm sure there's more factors involved, but I wonder if that's part of. My understanding is that police officers do too, for the same reason, kind of that it's almost like it can leave.

You feel having that really isolated feeling like there's an experience of reality that I have that is so far from anything that, that anybody else can even imagine. And so it just leaves you really kind of isolated. And then when you have that kinda knee jerk reaction going off to, to things and, you know, intensified fear and that, you know, can obviously come out.

In a lot of different ways, anger, anxiety, or things that complicates relationships and certainly think it was complicated. Marriage. Yeah. Fascinating. Wow. Now on the opposite side, so, you know, we've heard kind of how, um, trauma can affect people negatively. Is it possible to, to handle trauma properly? I don't know if properly is the right word, cuz a lot of times, you know, it's not something that we control.

But, um, but is there a way to handle trauma? Well, one of the, the main things is part of what makes a trauma, a trauma is how it gets taken care of. And, uh, I'll give you an example that a supervisor gave me years ago when I was, when I was just an intern. And he said, he, he said that to me, he said that very thing, you know, part of what makes a trauma, a trauma is how it gets taken care of.

And I said, you know, what do you mean by that? And he said, well, he had grown up in Pittsburgh. And so one particular, he pick particular day, he was, he was just a little boy. And he was out with a bunch of friends and they were playing a game of pickup football in a empty corner lot. And he got tackled onto a piece of a jagged pipe.

That seems like it was probably about a sticking up outta the ground, maybe for about a foot, you know? And it was jagged and broken off. Yeah. And he was tackled onto it and it kind of cut his calf and it was just, he was really bleeding and, and he went home and. His mom was kind of freaking out. like, she couldn't couldn't handle the, the blood and kind of everything.

Right. So she's kind of losing it. And so, but his grandfather lived a couple of doors down and so she took him over to his grandfather and his grandfather was just like really calm and really patient and really loving and just got him like all cleaned up and bandaged up and, and took him for ice cream.

And so he says, instead of remembering that event as a traumatic event, he remembers it as a time where he felt like he really got taken care of. And I thought that was like, that was so interesting. You know, it's something that that's kind of become, uh, a really big part of my practice and how I've started seeing trauma.

It's something that something you and I haven't talked about, but it's in, it's been in the last couple of years, I had started noticing this pattern in my practice that it didn't matter the age of the person, the, you know, if they're male or female, you know, if they were super smart or if they were just kind of more simple, like anywhere, you know, any factor you can change up.

Right. And I started noticing that consistent thing was that if somebody brought up something to me, that was just this really, really beautiful experience, which you can imagine doesn't happen a lot when people come to talk about trauma. Right? Sure. But if they were bringing something like that up, it always had to do with a profound sense of connection to either themself or another person or God.

always. And so once I started noticing this, Jo was kind of like, I was kind of geeking out on this. Right. Like I was like, oh, this is fascinating. Like connection is like the antithesis of trauma. Right. It's like the exact opposite. So it's, it's the antidote and which kind of makes sense. Right. It's what we're made for.

Right. Sure. And wow. So then I was kind of like, that was fascinating. It was super cool. Then I started thinking, you know, after a couple of weeks of having this like nugget of revelation and I started thinking. Well, gee what's what's connection comprised of like, that's just kind of this fluffy term, like what's, what's it made of.

And so then started noticing this pattern that it always had to do with our boundaries being respected and which gives us that kind of like fundamental sense of safety. Right. I think, and safety and respect. Right? So there's a place where, where I stop and you start, and I don't, I, I have to have respect for that space, you know, I don't get to just come trudging into, to your space physically, emotionally and spiritually because we're body mind.

Absolutely. Um, so that was one thing boundaries. Right? And then the second thing was value. So it always had to do with the person being treated like they had inherent value. Like they didn't have to earn their value. They just had, they had dignity because they were a human being. That's it and, and didn't have to earn it.

It wasn't based on looks or performance or status or money or, or anything like that. Right. And then the third thing was having that sense of feeling known. So, which I kind of come to, um, to kind of like define as like being seen and heard as an individual. Who's very good. Like very good kind of going back to like Genesis and the Bible.

Right. And then the fourth thing was openness. Cause we kinda, we have to be, have some degree of openness in order to experience those things, another person, right. Even tiny bits of openness. But then the thing I started noticing was that the openness is really a byproduct. Of those four things or those three things, right.

If somebody respects my boundaries and treats me as though I already have value, it's not like I have to earn my value from them and takes the time to really like, see and hear me, then we kind of naturally open, right. Cause we're like we're made for connection. And those three, three things like send us like this really big, you know, message of you're safe in every way, you know?

And so I think those things, like if there's a way to say survive trauma, well, like I would say, you know, kind of like recover from it naturally. Like if you know, something just happened to someone, it it's kind of, you know, showing up with. Those three things and helping that person not feel isolated and not feel like they have to earn their value, or if they have to protect themselves or feel isolated and that kind of thing.

Wow, this is so fascinating. So many different levels to, to everyone listening, who maybe you don't come from a broken home, but you love, or you lead someone who does, this is a great takeaway for you too. And it reminds me of just the fact Margaret that when someone goes through something traumatic, like the worst thing that we can do is just try to get 'em to cheer up.

I know a lot of people, well, intentioned people say, well, look on the bright side or a typical one. When it comes to us going through your parents' divorce, it's like, well, we now, you know, you have twice as many presents, twice as many birthdays Christmases, you get two houses, like trying to get people to see the bright side.

But, um, this shows me that , you know, that model that you just laid out, that the need for connection being the antidote to trauma, that that really proves that that is so unhelpful. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. And of course, like you're saying, you know, of course it's, it's from the best of intentions. Right. And, and I think it's because we, especially, we as helpers, right.

We have a little bit double dose of wanting to help people feel better. But instead of focusing on controlling the other person's emotions, which honestly is a boundary violation. Right. so instead of that, focusing on connection, I think that's like when we, when we go there, we stay on definitely on safe ground.

I I'll tell you a simple story of if we can tolerate another story. No, please. Okay. So a few years ago, One of my nephews. He was three years old and I'm from coastal Georgia. So I was, I was down in Georgia and was visiting family. I was staying with my brother and we had gone over to some relatives of his wife.

So my sister-in-law's grand great-grandmother. And so the little boys, my nephews were three and a year and a half, and they were, they were playing with this ball. They were throwing it back and forth and it went over this little kind of patio fence thing. And so Bryce came running inside and running across the room and ran out.

She was, she lived in an apartment, ran out and the apartment and down the car corridor to go get his ball back and. So he just hear, you know, these footsteps, like, and like little body, like floating on. And then he like goes along in front of the fence and like passed her apartment to now he was in front of the apartment next to her.

And all of a sudden you hear these little dogs, like, and so then all of a sudden he's crying and he's just like tearing back into the apartment, you know, mm-hmm and I thought, oh, like, he, he wasn't expecting to be met with these dogs. And even though they were little, he was little too. Right? Sure. It was pretty overwhelming.

So I met him at the door and picked him up as soon as, you know, he comes to the door and. He was crying and everything. And what naturally came to my mind to say was that must have been really scary because I was thinking about it from, from his perspective, you know? So I was like, that must have been really scary.

You weren't expecting to hear dogs, were you? And he's like, no, you know, and he's, he's crying and he's wiping his eyes and stuff. And so I'm gonna hold you up, appear really high so that we can go back out and get your ball, but you'll be up high. So you'll be. From the dogs. Right. And so we go outside and you know, I'm making up this little story to him and I'm saying, oh, this cause the dogs are not barking.

And it's like, oh, these dogs are saying, Hey, little boy, your balls over here, you know, I'm just being silly. And then, and he's like, oh, that's so nice. You know? So now he's VI his, and, and he, he feels safe though. I'm like, you know, oh, look, they're behind their little fence. And so now he wiggles down. Right?

Cause he, he wants to go get his ball. He knows he's safe. And because the dogs are, are away from him, I can't catch him. So he goes and he gets his ball and, and you know, there's, everybody's, everybody's happy, that kind of thing. But somebody had said to me later when I had, I had written about that story and the book that I had put out back in 2017, somebody said that to like, that was so interesting that you said to him, that must have been really scary.

He said, I, I think the natural thing to say would be, you don't have to be scared. Mm. And I was like really struck by that, cuz I thought, I think back in my experiences I guess that is something that people would've tended to say to me, but, but it just made so much sense to say that must have been really scary because clearly he was scared.

And if I say you don't have to be scared. I think what we tend to think in our minds is like, well, you don't understand, you know, because clearly if I am scared, there's something I'm scared about, you know, that kinda thing. So I didn't want him to feel isolated or him to feel understood. I, I wanted to meet him where he was instead of trying to get him to meet me where I was.

Once he felt like I met him where he was with that must have been really scary. Then I could bring him into, you know, the things, these things that were going was gonna do so that he didn't have to be scared and we could go and face it together. Does that make sense? Yeah. No, I love it. Empathy. That's all about empathy, basical, and then yeah, for sure.

Connected with him. Which helped him overcome his fear, which helped him kind of deal with that dangerous situation that he was facing. That's wow. That, no, that, that's incredible. It's a great illustration of kind of how that works when you truly help someone to process and go through something difficult.

Yeah. And just kinda like take, like looking at taking their perspective first, instead of getting them to take your perspective. Cause I think that we can kind of, we can tend to do that, you know, uh, and again, with the festive intentions, you know totally. Yeah. And I wanna transition into talking about, um, going through your parents' divorce, like when someone goes through their parents' divorce, their parents' separation, or maybe just a really broken marriage, uh, something you said before, how, you know, to, to properly survive trauma, um, means it, we, we need to get taken care of basically.

And so mm-hmm um, it, it had struck me because what we've seen reading the research and hearing all the stories that we've been hearing for years is that so often these young people who come from broken families or not so young. That they aren't taken care of. And again, not not saying parents are like want wanting to damage their kids.

I've never met a parent who wanted to hurt their kids by getting divorced. Never. But I think so often the kids get neglected and that is damaging. They don't have that connection. Like you mentioned, they don't feel that they're taken care of. And so I think maybe that's part of the reason it's so damaging.

So I wanna give you a chance to talk about that. Why, why would you say, uh, from your point of view, your expertise is your parents' divorce or separation, so, so traumatic for so many people. Yeah, I think there's, I think there's so many, so many reasons to that. Like, first of all, I think, cause we're, we're part of mom and part of dad to see that rift between the two of them really feels like a rift within us.

Right? Like even on a, on a very like natural physiological kind of level, you can feel like we're being torn apart. So I think it, it makes a lot of sense just on a really like. Basic like fundamental level. And you know, a lot of times there's even like, I look more like this person. So if you're rejecting this person, what does that say about me?

Maybe I have more features of that person. And if that, you know, he's rejecting this about her, then what does that say about me? And 11 times, I don't think we even necessarily articulate this stuff, but I think it's, you know, I think it ends up playing into the what's, you know, can be going on underneath.

Also, I think one of the things that makes situations so particularly damaging or impacting I would, would be a good word is when. The more helpless we feel in a situation and who, when it comes to something like separation and divorce, broken marriage, the typical, you know, the typical responses in trauma is we say it's fight flight or freeze.

And, and there is no way to fight it, right? Like because we're not even part of the, the breakup really, you know, we're not, we're not the mother, we're not the father. Right. We're not the husband, we're not the wife. So, so they're breaking up from each other and there's no way we can, we can fight that. No way we can, nothing we can do to stop it.

There's no way we can flee it either. Right. There's we can try to avoid and escape kind of from the idea of it or thinking about it, but it doesn't doesn't change the facts of the situation. So I think what most people end up doing is freezing, which is kind of that deer in the headlights kind of mode, where we feel that particular sense of.

Helplessness. There's nothing I can do to fight it. Nothing I can do to flee it. I can't change the situation. And so we, we just kind of brace for impact, you know, kind of, so to speak, if you're thinking about it, like what we would do in a car accident, when there's no way we can swerve to avoid the, you know, the car coming at us or something, things that are handled in that way, they tend to be particularly like leaving a lot of like depressive kind of symptoms.

When, when things are the free state is, as the trauma continues to be experienced, like it's still going on that free state particularly tends to be experienced down the road as depression. So I think, um, I think those are some of, some of the reasons also think particularly cause connection is like, you know, like I said before, what we're wired for and that's kind of the most fundamental connection that we're supposed to have, the way the.

Human family has been designed is there's for a person to come into the world and it needs to be a, a mother and a father and to, to bring this little life in. And so when there's a fraction in that connection, it goes against everything that we're made for, you know? Yeah. So seeing that, like that connection, that, that relationship that's supposed to really teaches about connection when that one, that, that one is like so crucial to the destructiveness.

Absolutely. Um, I also think there's something like, I think there's something to, it's not just like the person, you know, the, the person who's the child in the, um, in the family. It's not just like, they're not get getting taken care of. Sadly. I mean, that would be bad enough, of course, but sadly, a lot of times what I see is they're actually relied upon to take care of the parents or one of the parent and that.

That's kind of backwards, right? That's totally backwards from, from how it's supposed to be. And it's an, it's an awful lot of responsibility and none of the power, there's a story of, um, a boy where he was, uh, just, I think, 13, 14 years old. And, uh, his mom left, his mom just stopped and left, but his dad was just so debilitated by the mom leaving.

And so that child dropped outta school. He started doing everything the mom would do like cooking and cleaning and taking care of everything around the house. Wow. And so he literally, as, as a boy, he stepped into this parent role, not just taking care of the house mm-hmm but also being emotionally there for his dad.

Mm-hmm and we see this all, all the time, Margaret, like in the young people, we were it's yeah. They're filling roles. They were never meant to fill sometime often out of necessity. And, uh, man, it's, it's so sad and it is damaging. It may not. Look like that, you know, right away. But, uh, but down the road, it can be very damaging, especially in your relationship with that parent, which of course we all want good relationships with our parents and it can be really harmful down the road we've learned.

Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. I, I totally agree with that. And it has, I can tell you from, you know, working with adults cuz I, you know, my, my, the people, I treat's a mix of, of kids and adult and. and in working with adults, it has long lasting ramifications. You know, it's not something that once they're outta that situation, it's over.

And I think if you put it in terms of connection, a lot of times, the, the message they've taken away is, is that that's how they have to earn their value. And because they don't feel valued until they step into that role, because they, that they can see like really quickly, like, oh, if I do this, I help dad feel better or I help mom feel better.

And so then they, you know, maybe perhaps like, because of their own pain and depression, whichever parent or parents, aren't really engaging with them, you know, and their. Uh, kind of more kind of withdrawn or, or whatever the case might be. Right. And so mm-hmm but the kid takes away the message. Oh, if I do this, they like me.

If I do this, they appreciate me more if I do this. And so, so it's a real, yeah, it's a real detrimental message for a person to take on that. They have to earn their value, particularly by, by doing something that's like such a roll reversal. Right? No, that makes so much sense. And there's so much to say on that topic alone.

I, I just wanted to mention though that for sure, for, for any parents listening, who may be like freaking out right now, um, there, you, you play such a crucial role in helping your kids handle that the trauma handle that the messy situation, there is some research that we've seen that says basically if that child has a good relationship, a healthy relationship with one or both parents, they're much less likely to experience loneliness, to experience depression, to experience anxiety.

And so parents listening right now, uh, you play a huge role. We often hear how things go wrong. And, and there is a lot of that when people come from a broken family, no doubt. Um, but you can play a crucial role in helping in helping your children heal. So lot, lot more on that than, I guess we could talk about it in this conversation, but would you, um, add anything to kind of, why is divorce.

Separation so unique. Is there anything that makes it different than other types of trauma aside from the things you've already mentioned? No. I think just kind of looking back at, you know, again, to reiterate looking at the, at the family unit and that's like supposed to be our first school of, of connection really.

Right. And it really ends up teaching us how to even connect to ourself and how to connect to God and how to connect to others. And so it it's because it's like that, that primary place where we would get those lessons. Absolutely. And the research we've seen and mark, you've probably seen the same stuff, says that the, the biggest area of our lives that we are impacted by our parents' divorce is our own relationship, specifically our romantic relationships.

And we talk about that a lot in the show. Yeah. But it makes so much sense based on everything you just. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Mark. You didn't just learn this stuff in a book. That's one of the things that I think is so impressive about you, you've been through a lot in your own life years ago, you were on the brink of suicide.

If you're willing to talk about that a little bit, what happened? What's your story? I grew up in a very dysfunctional family. My parents did not divorce or separate, but it was at least physically right. So I, I do think there are people who fall into that category. Right? Absolutely. So there's this, like, there's this incredible disconnect and rift and, and that kind of thing.

So you you're experienced disconnection on day in and day out, but, but without the official divorce or separation. So there was a lot of, lot of dysfunction on pretty much every level. And so ended up running away from home when I was 17, um, came to thankfully came to Franciscan university, right outta high school.

And it was, it was a great place. To come cause it was probably one of the safest places I could have come. And it was, yeah, it, I didn't know I was gonna come here until two weeks before school started when I was a freshman, I just kinda, I needed to figure something out and go somewhere. So I applied and was accepted financial aid, worked through, you know, worked out and I was on a plane heading to Ohio.

And, um, nobody warned me about how cold it is in Ohio. Cause it was not cold in south Georgia but ended up but ended up up here and like really thankfully. So, but that wasn't really the end of the story, you know, that was just kind of the beginning. There was a lot of just kind of trying to sort out what in the, what in the world and, and all, you know, what in the word I had been through and still all the while living out of my own trauma, which just led to more drama and more trauma.

And so it wasn't until I was finally at, uh, by the time I was 33 years old, I had been in counseling for 16 years. I had been. Misdiagnosed bipolar. I had been hospitalized twice on like every medication under the sun and everybody was just kind of stumped what to do with me. And I was really, really under functioning and I knew I couldn't hold down a job because I was so morbidly depressed.

And so I thought, okay, well, school was always easy for me. So I'll, I'll get a master's degree cause that'll help me buy some time to try to figure me out. Cause clearly I was, I was stumping the professionals and um, of the master's programs that Franciscan had at the time master's in counseling program is what interested me for the obvious reason of trying to figure myself out.

Right. Mm-hmm and so, but it, I, so I went into the master's in counseling program, never with the intention of becoming a therapist. Never. That was not my intention. I was just trying to buy time and halfway through the master's in counseling program. I. Really coming apart at the seams and the therapist, I was seeing recommended that I go through the method of treatment that then kind of changed over all of these years into the way I practiced it, but went through it and it was night and day different.

It was intensive outpatient trauma treatment. And I went from, you know, the past, the 18 months prior to going through it, I had been. Imminently suicidal, just like every day and night, all day and night, my thoughts would just kind of always go to, to suicide and, and as sad and as disturbing as it sounds, that was actually kind of, my, my most hopeful thought was suicide because it kind of felt like my parachute, you know, because I had no hope for, for ever feeling anything else, because I had felt that way for, from really from the time I was 17, just so, so, so depressed and so intensely anxious and thought in good conscience.

I can't become a therapist because I don't believe it worked and went down. I went through this method of treatment, the clinic's closed now, but it went through it back then. And it was just day of night difference after intensive treatment. And so I, that kinda, that sold me on it. And it wasn't, it wasn't really the, the end, you know, it was like this silver bullet kind of thing, but it definitely, I, I didn't feel depressed anymore.

Didn't feel suicidal anymore. Didn't feel anxious anymore. And I definitely had the. The tools and the insight I needed to really begin to connect to me and then to connect to, to others, more healthily and to grow in my relationship with, with the Lord was connecting to him. So it was kind of this, it was just like an enormous portion of, of my own journey.

Also, honestly, there was a lot physiological that, that I ended up getting help with from chiropractor nutritionist in the area here, who we both know Dr. Mara, and the reason being that trauma actually takes a toll on your body and stress happens somewhere. Right? And it happens in these, these things we live in, right.

That's where the anxiety takes place when the depression takes place. And it really takes its own its wear and tear honest physiologically. So that was a big component of my healing as well. Wow. Besides my, besides my faith journey. Cause so I kind of had this like emotional, physical, and very and spiritual like aspects of the healing kind of, and I've always.

Really kind of emphasize that with clients, like you really have to go at it body, mind and spirit because that's how we're made. Yeah. You can't compartmentalize. We have to treat the person. No, you really can't. Yeah, for sure. I love that. Wow. What incredible story. And now you're helping other people who, you know, are going through trauma.

Who've been through trauma who are trying to, to process it, deal with it. Uh, tell, tell us a little about the, the therapy that you practiced, the model that you practiced and why, why is it so effective? So I, so, like I said, the model as I went through it, if. Changed. I added it up at one point, probably about 14 or 15 things over the years, trying to make it more, more efficient and more effective.

And mm-hmm and kind of more holistic. And so, so the, as I practice it, I refer to it as NRI, which stands for neuro reformatting and integration. So the neuro part is actually moving, moving. We try where files are stored in the brain. Or if you look at it kinda like reformatting those files, this is the way that they've become encoded instead of being experienced, like they're still going on.

Once we've processed them, they're actually able to be experienced like they're in the past. Which is really that's, that's the most effective part of the whole thing, because then it actually enables the person to be able to feel like a whole person instead of feeling like, okay, well there's part of me, that's carrying these terrible things I went through when I was four.

And these things that I went through when I was 12 and these things that I would turn on 15, you know, whatever ages like these particularly traumatic events happened. Because they continue to be experienced. Like they're still going on. They can really kind of leave us feeling diced up into all these different kind of ages that we were when the things happened.

But once the events are experienced, like they're in the past, then there's able to be like integration within the person. So we feel whole, instead of that sense of, of kind of this brokenness, you know, and, and I think, I think a lot of people who've been, been through trauma can kind of relate to that, you know, kind of feeling.

Like they're a little kid in an adult body and being expected to engage with an adult world, you know, and they're expected to act like adults and they, they don't even feel like an adult, even though they're in their mid thirties, you know, or, or mid twenties, you know, or whatever the case might be.

That's why it's so effective is because, and that's also why it can be done in intensive format. So in a week you can get the, all of these things addressed. You don't need a week or two weeks in between hourly sessions to kind of mull over what was talked about in the last session. And that kind of thing.

I, I always say, if it's easier for you to look at the kind of treatment I do as physical therapy for the brings, then that really kind of makes sense. Right? So, because I'll give you like a good example of like how physiological this is, this is kinda, this is kinda crazy. But during those two weeks that I went through, um, through trauma treatment, my hair turned to tiny little curls.

And stayed like that for the next year and a half. And wow. Um, which is one of the things that kept, you know, the, the body, mind spirit kind of approach, like literally in my face, right? Like anytime I look in the mirror, it was literally in my face and I was talking to my doctor about it and saying like, isn't that crazy?

And he said, well, it makes sense because when you're moving, where things are stored in the brain, it shifts up hormones. And a lot of times, you know, hormones have to do with will effect if a person's hair is curly or straight, like, example, for example, like when women get pregnant or have babies, you know, a lot of times their hair, if they have curl, they'll lose curl, or, um, if they don't have curly hair, they might get curly hair.

So yes, it's kinda it's that biological, you know, kind of shift that makes it so effective. It's, it's not, it's not just trying to get the person to think about it in a think about whatever the traumatic events were in a different light for like a short period of time that then they wouldn't be able to sustain.

You're actually kind of like. Changing how it's stored in the brain. Wow, incredible. It's like you're doing, you're reorganizing their brain, so to speak. Yeah. Which causes the, you know, the symptoms they talked about before it causes those things to go away, you know? So the limbic system's able to calm down.

So the neocortex is able to do, um, in the prefrontal cortex, more of what it's meant to do. So this kind of stuff we call executive functioning. So prioritizing and being organized and, and problem solving. You know, if I do this, wait, that's gonna happen. So I wanna make this choice instead, you know, making better choices, the person's able to from a calmer place and approach things.

More peace and clarity. Wow. Incredible. And Margaret, I wanted to ask you, so when someone comes to work with you, they're, you know, coming to your, um, clinic for a week, uh, what does that week look like? What's the agenda? Like what sort of, uh, exercises do they go through? Like, could you demystify that a little bit?

Like what process do you follow in leading people through this therapy? Sure. So the first part, even before they come to know if they're appropriate for this method of treatment is kind of, uh, a set amount of form and call the history and goals, questionnaire. And so I, I get their history, so I know if they're appropriate for treatment and, and to know if the goals.

That they're looking to attain. If, you know, if you, if they make sense given this treatment, if this is a good fit for that. And then if it is when they come for that week, they stay in the local area. It's outpatient treatment. So they just come for sessions from in the morning and in the, and or in the afternoon, depending on what their schedule is, what they're set up with, what kind of their need is.

And then on Monday kind of do an intake that gives us a lot bigger picture of, um, kind of that context of their life, because we've gotten the real specific information on that history and goals, questionnaire. And then I, I like to educate people on. Trauma, a lot of the, kind of the stuff we're talking about and the effects on the brain and the reason being that the more they can understand how the things they've been through are affecting them.

I think a lot of times it takes away some of the shame and the self blame and that kind of stuff. And it, it actually, a lot of times people will go, oh, well, if this is what you're saying, that maybe I should tell you this. And they'll start sharing with me. Things that, that very much would kind of fall into the trauma category also, and really important for me to know.

So I always look at. Like whoever the person is I'm working with. We are the treatment team for the week because I might be the expert on trauma, but they're the expert on them. So kinda look at getting them caught up to my information and me caught up to them so that we can kind of go at things together.

And then throughout the week, we kind of take things through the neurore reformatting and integration process of this reformatting, these, you know, these memory files, which is actually done through a directed use of art therapy. So there's a lot of art therapy and if there're really little kids play therapy that goes into it, um, a lot of different parts and pieces of that.

And then kind of everything through one of the main things, that's different about how. Practicing these days, that's so different than anything I've done before is it's all through the perspective of connection, because I really want people to finish, not just, um, you know, finish the week up, not just available for connection, but understanding what healthy connection looks like, and then what the steps are they need to take in order to grow and deeper connection to themselves, you know, or others or the Lord, if they're Christian.

So that kind of has a lot to do with, with wrap up and kind of helping them be in a lot better spot for, for being vaed going forward. Because for myself, like that was not how treatment was when I went through it. So sadly I went through treatment, it was enormously helpful, but then I got out just like, okay, ready for connection, but had no idea that that was kind of part of all, what all of this stuff getting cleared up outta my life was kind of positioning me for and didn't have any idea how to navigate healthy connection.

Cause I hadn't experienced that. Wow. So that's become kind of really. What I'd say is like profoundly different about how I practice these days. Incredible. No, it, it sounds super effective. And I know you've helped a lot of people. What are some of the transformations that you've seen? Gosh, there's, there's so many stories I wanna tell you about this, which actually this is not a commercial break, but there a lot of the book that I wrote serious, this is true.

A lot of the book that I wrote, like kind of goes through some of those because there they were such learning experiences. For me. Right. I was like shocked. As I continued to see, like these dramatic changes, whether they be like physically or emotionally or, or behaviorally, a lot of times, you know, with kids, you'll see like major behavior changes.

So one of the physical ones that comes to mind readily was working with somebody. I'll tell you this one. So, so this was a young adult I was working with and this person had all of these physiological symptoms. And so with colorblind, they could feel, you know, sense of TA or of touch, but they said everything, they felt felt like they had gloves on.

And, um, they had a really dull sense of smell. And so a really dull sense of taste. They were getting migraines like all the time. They had been hospitalized for a migraine once for two months, just, just crazy. I can't even imagine my goodness. They had had a really hard time learning to read and also with a really hard time learning math when they were little.

And so they came for treatment. Oh, this person also, their, their coloring looked really bad, like really pale sickly and very, it was a, it was a, a guy and he was very much like underweight kind of sickly looking and all of those symptoms through the week of treatment, all of those symptoms went away. All of those color, like everything I just named all the symptoms went away, started being able to sound words out, started being able to, to you went home, asked his mom what's the deal with fractions.

And she sat down. She said, I sat down and like explained fractions to him, like for the hundredth time. And he's been sitting around doing math for fun for the last three days. Wow. That's the biggest transformation. Sorry, doing master reports. I think that's diagnosable, but that's OK. um, yeah. And then like in the six months after treatment, he grew three inches and put on 40 pounds that he very much needed to put on cuz he was just like so sickly and, and stopped getting migraines.

So, um, yeah, so, so that's just like, it, it, so cause of that, like be because of like having all those symptoms before growing up, he just saw himself kind of like as a person who couldn't do things like, right. Like, like not capable. And so he, he hadn't tried a lot of things, even though he was 20 or 21 years old, he didn't have his driver's license.

Didn't have a job, was living with his parents. Hadn't gone to college. He he'd actually never stayed overnight at their house by himself before. I mean, there was just a lot of things cause he felt really incapable, you know, and all of those things changed. Right. So he ended up kind of. Con like constantly like trying more things and doing more things and then having success, doing those things.

And then it really shifted how he saw himself. And so, so as you, you kind of see that a lot of times, whatever the person's, you know, whatever the symptoms are that you see change up, you see. That it, it kind of becomes evident that a lot of times before treatment people see their symptoms as who they are instead of how they're doing.

And after treatment, like once the symptoms are gone and then the person's able to get, oh, that's just how I was doing. That's not who I, who I am or who I was. Right. And so then they engage with the world and others, like in a lot different way, which is a lot greater degree of freedom. Incredible. Wow, what a sword and I'm sure you have so many more in the book guys.

Uh . There's there's so many more I can hear you I'm sure. No, I'm sure. So the book that Margaret mentioned, everyone, uh, it's more than words, the freedom to thrive after trauma, you could pick that up on Amazon. I'll tell you, uh, at the end, how you can, can buy that if, if you'd like, but wow. One incredible story.

And uh, maybe one day we'll have you back just to tell stories of transformation. That's incredible. if I can tell you, I'll tell you those two. There's a, um, please, there's a manuscript. I just finished. I did it over, wrote it over when the pandemic lockdown happened. Cuz I thought I would lose my mind if I was locked in here by myself.

and so I, I started writing a book. Connection. And so it's all about connection to God's self and others, and just like putting the finishing passes on that. So that should be coming out in the next month or so hopefully incredible. Uh, we'll make sure to link that in the show notes when that does come out.

So man, thank you for, for mentioning that. I, I had no idea that you were working on another book. Gotta do something to stay outta trouble. Joey, there you go. mark. I just wanna in closing up the show, I just wanna ask you, uh, people, you know, are hearing all this and they're thinking, man, this sounds so good.

Uh, you know, I need to heal. I want to heal, uh, but maybe I can't start the week long therapy right now. What's one thing that they can do right now from home in order to, to start that healing process. You know, this might sound like super simplistic, but I, I think it's like profoundly important and I think everybody could stand to grow in this and, and that would just be being compassionate to ourselves to themself.

Cause I think that's, that's like so key, like the more compassionate we are to ourself, whether that means respecting our own boundaries and not attributing our value to, to our performance or our looks or, you know, whatever, whatever kind of external factor, not beating ourselves up. Um, not putting ourselves down, that kind of thing.

I think that's really kind of that begins that shift. I think because we, we talk to ourselves far more than we spend time talking to anybody else in that constant kind of commentary we can have running in our head. So making that conscious effort to begin practicing compassion to ourselves really kind of go, can go a long way to the integration of the person when, whenever they are able to end up getting help from somebody on the outside.

But it really, um, stands in stark contrast. A lot of times to the messages that we've been sent in traumatic experiences. So I say self-compassion is, is, is huge. Absolutely. No, I I've seen that be, um, really fruit in my own life and then the lives of the people and swords audience that, that we've worked with, cuz yeah man, if we were to like write out or listen to the way that we talk to ourselves, we, a lot of us would just be complete jerk.

Because we're just so unkind and so mean to ourselves. So I think, uh, it it's great advice. And one of the things that a lot of people, uh, benefit from hearing is that it's okay not to be okay. It's okay to absolutely to go through something difficult. And, uh, just like you would treat another person who is going through a really hard time.

You need to treat yourself the same. And so not. I love that advice, Margaret, and I just wanna give you a chance to what encouragement, what advice would you give to someone who, who really is in a tough spot? Who, who feels broken, who feels hopeless, who maybe feels stuck, especially because of the messiness in their family.

Like you mentioned, maybe their parents are still together, but things are really dysfunctional or maybe their parents just separate, or their parents have been divorced for a. What advice and encouragement would you, would you give to them? Yeah, well, I like first and foremost, I would say there's always hope.

There's always hope. And, and I, and I would say, you know, to look at your symptoms as how you're doing, not who you are, because they're really not. And, and you know, it, it's all passing. Like it's all passing it's and yet when we're in the middle of it, it can feel like we're gonna feel like that way forever, but that's really not the truth.

So I say there's, there's always hope and you're not the sum total of your symptoms. Beautiful. And how can people learn more about you? How could they follow you? Get your books, learn about your practice. Yeah. Yes, they can. Um, they can follow me on my, or come to my website@culture-of-connection.com and the book is available on Amazon.

So they can either put in my name Margaret Vasquez, or they can put in more than words, the freedom to thrive after trauma. If they come to my website, culture of connection.com, they can sign up to receive emails and say, they'll get updated when the next book is out. And that kind of thing. And blog posts and stuff.

Excellent. And guys will make sure to throw that all in the show notes to make it easy for you, Margaret, thank you so much for your time for expertise and for just your heart, uh, you know, your willingness to, to help people and the heart you have for, for them. So really appreciate you taking time to, to do this with us.

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Joey. And just wanna say, I like God bless you and your ministry just really appreciate what you do.

There's so much to say after an episode like that, so many takeaways, but just a few one, I would say don't minimize the negative experiences that you've been through in life. Like Margaret said, a lot of times people say couldn't have been worse and we kinda just write things off as normal or thinking, well, it could have been worse.

A lot of other people go through a lot of worse things in their lives and sure. Maybe it could have been worse, but the fact that it shouldn't have been that. The fact that it should have been different is enough to be hurt by it. And so we really can't minimize those negative experiences in our lives.

We really owe it to ourselves to, to reflect on them, to think about how we've been damaged and then to make an effort to heal. Another excellent point that Margaret made was it really matters how helpless we felt during those negative experiences to put it. In other words, the more helpless you feel during a painful experience, the more impactful it is on you.

And so that's a great question to really reflect on is how helpless did I feel during these bad things that have happened in my life. And then you can kind of draw a line between those bad things that happened, how helpless you felt and the things maybe you struggle with today and how it has affected you over the years.

So something really good to reflect on today, or at some point, this. In for anyone listening, who's maybe trying to help a friend who's going through something tough right now, or just someone you care about someone you lead. Perhaps it's so important that we meet people where they are. I love the story that Margaret told about her little nephew with the dogs and how she kind of handled that whole thing.

And what she said was, yeah, we have to meet people where they are. We need to be empathetic. We need to put ourselves in their shoes, not telling them how to feel or trying to cheer them up, but really going to them in the low place that they're at right now. And so you can say things. That must have been really difficult, or that must be scary, like Margaret said.

And I've found that when you take that approach with helping people, it usually goes so much further. And on the receiving end, I've been on the receiving end as well. It's so much better when someone comes to you with that attitude than if they come to you with the attitude of like, I'm gonna try to fix you, or you just need to get over there.

So you just need to feel better. There's so much more that we can say, but if you wanna pick up Margaret's book more than words is the title. You can buy that on Amazon or wherever you buy books. Uh, we'll throw a link in the show notes. If you wanna buy the book that way you can just click on that and you can buy the book.

We'll also add her new book that's coming out in the show notes once that is released, and those show notes can be found@restoredministry.com slash 37. Again, that's restored ministry.com. Ministries is to singular slash 37 3 7. Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful. Please subscribe and share this episode with someone that you know, who could use it.

Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#036: Healthy Relationships Are Impossible Without Boundaries

Most people from broken homes struggle with boundaries. Usually, we were never taught how to set and enforce proper boundaries within our families. We’ve seen this again and again.

Why is that damaging? Because you can’t have healthy relationships without proper boundaries. Period.

In this episode, we cover:

• What are boundaries?

• The four types of boundary problems

• Six of the ten laws of boundaries

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When we ask our audience, like, what are you struggling with? One of the common themes is problems with boundaries. And what we've learned is basically this almost always, I'm tempted to say always, but almost always broken homes are dysfunctional and where there is dysfunction boundaries are always violated.

Always. Now, if you come from a broken home, you may be thinking, do I struggle with boundaries? And it's a, a good question to ask, but it's actually more difficult to answer than you might think. And the basic reason is that boundaries are, are kind of difficult to understand and explain. They're difficult to put into words because they're this a.

Often intangible thing that, that we try to talk about and it could be difficult to do that. Now, I think most of us would say that we do struggle with boundaries, at least at some level, but some of us may not see the connection between the struggles that we're dealing with every day and boundaries.

Another way to put it is we may not understand that some of our struggles, some of our problems actually have the root in not having proper boundaries and to shed some light on that. Here are some examples of some boundary problems. I'm just gonna list some off and you can just think, you know, is that something that I deal with?

The first thing is you have a hard time saying no, or maybe you have a hard time hearing. Now you say yes to almost everything that people ask of you, your life feels kind of outta control and chaotic. You often avoid conflict. You frequently find yourself doing things that other people want you to do, but you don't really wanna do you heavily rely on another person for your emotional stability?

If things go well in that relationship, life is good, but if not, life is unbearable. You often emotionally react to the needs of others instead of slowing down and thoughtfully responding to them. You feel like a parent to anyone who's not your child to people who you really shouldn't feel like a parent to like maybe your parents or your siblings or your friends, or your boyfriend, your girlfriend, or even your spouse.

You find yourself being nice to people, not so much out of love, but really out of fear, you struggle to take ownership or responsibility of your life and the problems within. And you freely try to rescue people from the consequences of their bad decisions and the list goes on and on, but that just gives you an example of some boundary problems.

And if some of those described to you, don't out, you're not alone. It's actually a really popular struggle, especially for people who come from broken homes. People like us. There's a really simple reason for that. Most of us were never taught how to. And enforce proper boundaries within our families, the place where we're really supposed to learn them.

And so, as a result, we often struggle with setting and enforcing boundaries in our own families, especially with our parents. But why are we talking about this topic? Why is this important? Basically you cannot have healthy relationships without boundaries. It's impossible. So if we want healthy relationships with our parents, healthy relationships, with our friends, healthy relationship with our boyfriend, our girlfriend, with your spouse, we need to get boundaries.

Right? It's that important? And so in this episode, we're gonna talk about boundaries. We're gonna keep it simple, but we're gonna go through what are boundaries. Exactly. Give some examples of them. We'll talk about some problems that come up with boundaries and we'll touch on the laws of boundaries as. In the future, we're gonna be putting on more content on boundaries.

They're just that important. We can't cover it all in one episode, but you may be surprised by how helpful this content is today. So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce or separation. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 36 and today, again, we're talking about boundaries and in a lot of ways, this episode's gonna be a book review of the book boundaries.

When to say yes, how to say no to take control of your life. It was written by Dr. Henry cloud and Dr. John Townsend. They're both psychologists, they're authors, and this is really gonna give you a taste, this episode of what that book is about. So we're just gonna give you a quick summary and overview of some parts of it.

Basically do a book review. You frequently see on YouTube. And really if this resonates with you, if this topic resonates with you, then you really should pick up the book. And I'll tell you how to do that at the very end, but this will give you a good taste of the, some of the content within the book. So what are boundaries?

Well in the book, they say that boundaries are anything that helps to differentiate you from someone else or shows you where you begin and end. They go on to say, boundaries, define us. They define what is. And what is not me, a boundary shows me where I end and someone else begins leading me to a sense of ownership that the simplest way that I could put it is that boundaries are healthy limits in various areas of our lives.

And to begin with the questions, what in my life am I responsible for? What am I not responsible for? What's under my ownership and protection. What is not. And once we stand the answers to those questions, then we can understand how we should act in certain situations, what you should do, what you shouldn't do.

And we'll get into some examples in a second, but boundaries also help us to communicate what we're willing to do and what we're unwilling to do. They also help us to communicate our likes and our dislikes, and perhaps most of all, they give us the ability to say, And they really give us freedom in the book.

They say this, they use the example of owning a house and having a yard. They say, knowing what I am to own and take responsibility for gives me freedom. If I know where my yard begins and ends, I'm free to do with it. What I like. But to, to make this easier to understand what are some examples of boundaries?

Again, a good starting point is asking the question, what am I responsible for? What do I have ownership of in my life? And I think you could break it down into two simple buckets. There's tangible things. And then there's intangible things. And so a tangible example, and there's many examples, but we can say if you own, or you rent a home or an apartment or a dorm, you have responsibility over.

Those things. And so typical boundaries for those sorts of things are locks on your doors, fences signs, walls lines in the ground, borders. Those are obvious things, right? They're physical, they're easy to see. And in the book they say that those things they give the same message. The owner of the property is legally responsible for what happens on his or her property.

And within that, you can understand that anything outside of the property, the owner is not responsible for another example, is your. It sounds kind of silly to say, but locking your car, the locks in your car are a boundary, right? They keep people out who shouldn't be in your car. Another type of boundary would be not allowing certain people to drive your car.

Who, who aren't trustworthy, who aren't able to take care of your car, the way that it needs to be taken care of. Of course, we have ownership of our bodies and there's naturally boundaries when it comes to our bodies. And there's a ton of examples, but one really obvious example is not allowing people to, to touch us or treat us in a way that's not appropriate in a way that's inappropriate.

And obviously the, the most grievous violation of boundaries when it comes to our bodies is abuse, right? Sexual or physical abuse. But even beyond that, we really have a responsibility to take care of our bodies by, you know, controlling what weed and how much of it, how often we exercise, how much we sleep and so on.

And really what you'll see is that boundaries can kind of be set in two extremes, right on one end. When it comes to sleep. For example, we can't allow ourselves to never sleep because we would just go crazy and get sick and die. On the other hand, if we're sleeping all the time, that's not good either.

And so we need boundaries on either end to tell us, okay, what's enough sleep that we need to take care of our bodies. We also have ownership over our actions, like what, what we do. And so, you know, a silly and simple one is I won't punch someone in the. Unless I'm defending myself or defending someone else, or, you know, when someone says something bad about another person I'm gonna speak up for that person.

When it comes to intangible things, it's a little bit more difficult to put them into words, but one area that we have ownership of and responsibility for is our emotions. Now that one might be a little bit tricky because you really can't control fully how you. But you can control how you react to certain things and you can control what you expose yourself to.

Right? The, the stimuli that you expose yourself to stimuli being the things or the people whatever's around you, that makes you feel something. And so you may realize a boundary that you need with a certain person. Like I can't spend time with that person anymore. They just, you know, take the life out of me.

Or if there's an abusive relationship that you're in, like, I need to break this off. This is. Good. I can't be with this guy. I can't be with this girl. I can't be with this friend. Uh, maybe an abusive marriage, obviously. It's not as easy to just like walk away from that. Cuz you made a vow, a commitment, but really they talk about this in the book, a, a spouse who's being abused like verbally or emotionally, really needs some distance.

It may have been require a separation. It really until. The abusive spouse faces his or her problems and becomes trustworthy again. And in the book they say, you should not continue to set yourself up for hurt and disappointment. They say forgive, but guard your heart until you see sustained change. And so that's one thing we always talk about when it comes to.

Broken marriages. The goal is always to heal the marriage, to keep the spouses together, but the spouses need to put boundaries in place, especially the one who's being mistreated. It's not okay to just allow that behavior to continue. Boundaries are needed saying this is not okay. I won't tolerate it. And these are the consequences.

Another area we have ownership over of course is our time. Like we can control what we do with our time. And so some boundaries there, we might say, you know, I'm gonna limit. How much time I spend watching Netflix, I'm gonna limit how much time I spend consuming the news or going on social media, or maybe I'm gonna make time for my girlfriend.

I'm gonna make time for my boyfriend. I make time for my wife, my husband. And so we, we can put boundaries, you know, around our time as well. And, uh, one of the things I say in the book is that taking time off from a person or a project can be a way of regaining ownership over some out of control aspect of your life.

Where boundaries need to be set and related to that is another area of our life that we have ownership over. And that is our relationships. Of course, we can't control the people in them, but it truly is our most basic need. As people, we need connection. We need people, we need intimacy. We need relationships in our lives.

And so I think this is probably the area that we screw up boundaries. The most. And I think part of the reason for that is that well we're broken. Uh, but also we have a lot of fear when it comes to relationships. We have a fear, especially of being alone of being abandoned, especially if you know, you come from a broken family and so we may continue on and allow certain behavior in our relationships.

That really is not okay that we really should not tolerate, but we allow it to happen. Because again, we're afraid that. Don't if we stand up for ourselves, if we stand up against some, you know, wrong behavior that the person that we're with is doing, then we may think, oh shoot. Well, they're just gonna leave me.

They're gonna abandon me. And so it's better to put up with this unhealthy bad behavior than it is to be abandoned. And so you could see how there just can be so many problems when it comes to relationships and boundaries that we'll get into a little bit more, uh, later on another boundary though, when it comes to relationships is just the fact that you refuse to use another person for your own benefit, you know, using them for the sake of just using them for some benefit for yourself when it's something that's not truly good for the other person that could be a boundary that you have in your relationship or, or not allowing yourself to be used, like knowing when you know, a guy or a girl is just.

Interested in you because they want some from you, especially sexual, that happens a ton in relationships, right? Someone just wants to use you, uh, for a physical or an emotional reason. They're not really interested in you. They don't really care about you care about, you know, you as a person, your body, your soul, everything.

And speaking of our souls, of course, there's boundaries. When it comes to our souls, we won't go into that one as much as a little bit more complicated, but of course, when it comes to like bad habits, we can say, I won't do these bad habits or I'm working. To get these bad habits out of my life. Or, you know, another boundary you can say is like, I'm gonna follow God's plan for my life, and I'm not gonna do the things that are not included in that plan for my life.

And so on you, you get the example, but all these things, all these things, all these different areas of our lives, we need boundaries in. We need healthy limits in those areas of our life. And when those things are broken, right? When we set the boundaries in those areas of our lives, there need to be.

Consequences when they're broken, especially by other people. And one of the basic ways that we can set those boundaries of course, is with our words, we can say that, you know, I won't tolerate someone calling me bad names or I won't gossip about other people. I'm gonna confront them directly. If I have a problem with them or, you know, using the word, no, of course is, is a simple verbal boundary that, that we can use with people in various situations.

We also use words of course, to, to communicate our likes, our dislikes, what we're feeling, you know, what we're willing to do, what we're not willing to do. And so on. And of course, that could take the form of saying, Hey, you know, I like this, or I hate that or yeah, I'll do this or no, I will not do that. And so those are all examples of, of how we set boundaries and even it force them as well.

And like I mentioned, consequences need to happen when someone breaks a boundary and it doesn't mean they always need to be super serious. So. You know, it may not be as serious of a boundary violation, but there needs to be consequences. And we can't only just set boundaries without enforcing them. If we set boundaries without enforcing them, then people are just gonna walk all over our boundaries that they're just gonna violate our boundaries and then nothing will ever happen.

So they'll learn, oh, these aren't real boundaries. These are, you know, just fake boundaries. And so I can do whatever I want. So if someone breaks our boundaries, There have to be consequences. Those consequences have to be enforced. And a typical one of course is, you know, if you break into someone's home, you're gonna get rest.

You know, you violated a boundary of going onto someone's property, breaking into their home. You're gonna get arrested. You know, another one may be if you trash my car, right. If I would give you my car to, to use, to borrow and you trash it, right, you may get it all dirty. You leave things everywhere.

You're not gonna be using it again. I'm not gonna let you borrow it again. And so you can see how, again, we'd set the boundaries in different areas of our life, where we have ownership over, and then we have to enforce those boundaries when they're broken. And like I mentioned those consequences, things that we enforce when someone breaks our boundaries, show the seriousness of breaking that boundary.

Now, one objection that they bring up in the book when they are teaching people about boundaries, is that people say, well, wait a minute. Aren't we supposed to love and help other people. It seems like these boundaries kind of repel people away from us instead of being loving and nice and kind and all those things.

And what they basically say is, yes, we do have a responsibility to love people, but there's a limit. It can't be unhealthy. And so one of the ways that they put it is that we are responsible to others. And for ourselves, they explain it this way. They say that we need to help people with their burdens, right?

Those things in their lives that are just too big to bear for any one person, people like that, right. They're going through something really difficult in life. They don't have the capacity to carry that burden by themselves. They lack the strength. They lack the resources. They lack the knowledge to deal with that thing at the same.

There's lesser problems, lesser things that each person should carry on their own. They call that the daily load. These are things that people can't do for us, and they really shouldn't do for us unless of course, you know, we're disabled in some serious way where we really need people to step in and do things that.

Everyday average people should be able to do. And the analogy they use is that burdens, right? Those big things in life are like boulders, right? Those big, huge rocks that, that nobody can carry on their own. And examples of those of course are some sort of tragedy in someone's life or maybe some crisis in their life.

And so in those moments, of course, people need our help. We can't turn our back on them. We have a responsibility to them, but on the other. An everyday load is not a tragedy or a crisis, right? Little problems, things that come up, we shouldn't be constantly solving them for other people. You know, they need to take responsibility for things in their life.

And this same is true for us. We need to take responsibility of certain things in our life. Some of the things which I already mentioned, and what they explain is that problems arise. When people act as if boulders are daily loads and refuse, help. Or as if daily loads are boulders, they shouldn't have to carry the result of those two instances are either perpetual pain or irresponsibility.

So you can imagine, you know, if someone goes through something really serious in life and it's just too much for them to handle, they need help. Right. They need to reach out. They need to ask for help. But if they refuse that help for that big crisis, maybe they, you know, got in a big car accident. They don't want the paramedics to help them, but they're actually like bleeding or hurting.

It's like, no, in that moment, you need someone to help you. They need to accept that help. And so it's good to accept, help with those things, their lives that are boulders, those big issues. On the other hand, you know, of course they explain that those daily things, those daily loads, we need to take respons.

Of those things and, you know, there's a problem, of course, if, you know, if I'm like a 30 year old guy and I'm still having my mom, you know, do my laundry for me, unless of course, again, I'm disabled in some way where I can't do that. There's a problem there. I need to take responsibility over those things in my life that that really I should be responsible for.

I wanna change gears and talk about problems with boundaries and those problems can come in many forms, of course, but one of the things they say in the book is that any confusion of responsibility and ownership in our lives is a problem of boundaries. They go on to say again, this is kind of striking.

So listen to this. They say many clinical. Psychological symptoms such as depression, anxiety disorders, eating disorders, addictions, impulsive disorders, guilty problems, shame issues, panic disorders, and marital and relational struggles. Find their roots in conflicts with boundaries. Now, no doubt that there's a lot in that sentence, but basically they're saying that often at the root of a lot of our problems and issues and symptoms is often an issue with boundaries and they say one of the things we can fall into when it comes to boundaries, which I alluded to earlier is that boundaries can either be too strict or they can be too lenient.

Right now, if our boundaries are too strict, then we wouldn't wanna allow good things to come in and we won't allow bad things to go out. Right. We're just kind of this walled up person that doesn't allow anything to permeate us. And so we need to make sure that our boundaries aren't too strict. An example of this of course, is a.

Maybe where we're so guarded around our heart, that we don't let anyone in. We'll never be vulnerable. We'll never let anyone see our heart. Of course, we don't want to go out to the opposite extreme. And that's what they say here. The other extreme is being too lenient to the point where, you know, they say the good may go out and the bad might come in, right where we maybe just open our heart or our bodies.

To anyone and everyone. And of course that's not good either. And so again, we can't have boundaries that are too strict, but we also can have them be too lenient. And so we need to hit that middle ground and they use the analogy again, of, of a home. They say that property lines, or you can think of a fence, must be a permeable enough to allow passing and strong enough.

To keep dangers out. So, you know, if you build like a 30 foot high concrete wall around your house without a door in it, well, your friends can't come over so don't do that. But on the other hand, you know, if you wanna have a fence around your house to, to keep out bad people, but you, you put a gate at one point or, you know, there's a way to enter for, you know, the people that you want to come in.

And so there needs to be a way for the good to come in and the bad to go out or to stay. In the book, they explain that people kind of fall into one of four areas or a combination of those areas when it comes to boundary problems. And first they say are compliance. They call 'em compliance. And those are people who say yes to the bad.

To explain this when they say to feel safe in such an evil world, children need to have the power to say things like these. No, I disagree. I will not. I choose not to stop that. It hurts. It's wrong. That's bad. I don't like it when you touch me there. Now, when someone prevents children from saying those things through whatever means, they, they say that blocking a child's ability to say no handicaps, that child.

For life. Now, this one of course strikes close to home for all of us because we come from broken families. And a lot of times in broken families, we are told just to be compliant in many cases, the sad truth is, and this is not a popular thing to say, but the sad truth is that there are people who don't want us to be hurt, who don't want us to be traumatized by the break.

Of our family and they try to tell us that everything's okay. And often we just kind of go along with it. We comply and, and that's extremely damaging. Again, another example would be, you know, if you've been abused in some way, someone trying to make light of that and say, you know, you know, it's fine, it's fine.

It'ss, it's not a big deal. It's so damaging. So again, we, we just go along, we, we don't have a backbone and that plays out later in life too. And they say in the book, after a while, it's hard to distinguish them. The people who really don't have a backbone who kind of just go along with whatever from their environment, we just kind of blend in because we have this inability to say no.

And one of the reason we have the inability to say no is because we're afraid of hurting another person's feeling. We're afraid of being abandoned. We're afraid of being on our own. Maybe we're afraid to say no, because we have this wish to be totally dependent on another person. Maybe we don't wanna face the responsibilities of life.

We'd rather be a victim in many ways, instead of taking ownership of our life. We have a fear of, of someone else's anger, especially if you grew up with a parent who would just burst out an anger at you, maybe you're afraid that if you say no, that anger is gonna come to the surface again, or maybe you're afraid of being punished by someone afraid of being shamed, afraid of being seen as just bad or selfish.

And so on and kind of another thing that goes along with this in the book they say is just this inability to confront others. Cuz if we can't say no, then we're not gonna be able to stand up to someone and say, no, what you did was wrong, what you did, it hurt me. And so we just, we kind of have these muscles.

That we're not using. And so they become so weak. If we ever try to use them, we really don't have the ability to, to do that. Unless of course we strengthen those muscles and work up to it. So that's the first type that people fall into being compliant saying yes to the bad. The next type is being avoidant.

Saying no to the good and, and yes, you can be both compliant and avoid it. We'll talk about that a little bit, but you can struggle with both where basically you're saying yes to the bad and no to the good, and really at the core of this, they explain is an inability to recognize your own needs. And because of that, you neglect your own needs, you push away those things.

That would be really good for you. And I remember hearing a story about a woman who came from a broken home and she was just really afraid of love, afraid of relationships. And she was engaged multiple times. She was engaged to, to good men. Men, who, you know, were gonna take care of her were gonna respect her.

These weren't just bad guys. They were actually good virtuous men, but she kept breaking the engagement off. She just couldn't go through with it. And there's a lot to that, of course. But I think this is at the core of this. She just had an inability to say yes to something that was so good. And then instead she said no.

And for, for people like that, It can be extremely difficult to be vulnerable, to open up to people. And you know, if you're religious to open up to God as well, the authors explain they that the people who deal with this experience, their problems and legitimate wants. As something bad, destructive or shameful.

I've seen this a lot in the Christian world when it comes to sex and sexual desire, you have, you know, people who are out there saying that sex is bad and dirty and, and that's why, you know, you shouldn't have it unless you're married and then it's tolerated. Not at all. You know, sexual desire is such a good and beautiful thing.

And because it's such a good and beautiful thing, we should use it in a proper way. But even people who do use it in a proper way, you know, within their marriage, They might feel like something is bad or dirty about sex because this has been ingrained in them. And so again, they, they just say no, or they don't allow themselves to experience really good and beautiful things.

Um, for one reason or another, and the end results, all those things is that we're left feeling drained and empty, or we might be giving, but we're not receiving. And so we feel empty. And when you combine right, the first type, someone who's compliant with the second type, someone who has avoidant, they say, you know, these type of people compliant, avoidance suffer from what is called reversed boundaries.

They have no boundaries where they need them and they have boundaries where they shouldn't have them. The, the third type is what they call controllers. So controllers basically don't respect other people's boundaries. And they say that controllers can't. Others' limits. They resist taking responsibility for their own lives, so they need to control others.

And they say there's really two types within this type of controllers. The first type is an aggressive controller. This is someone who's kind of boisterous. They're verbally abusive. Maybe they're physically abusive. They might not even be aware that others have boundaries. They might just go around acting like, you know, they own the world and, you know, everyone needs to do what they say and.

I'm sure everyone can think of someone they know like that, but, but the second type of controller, I is more stealthy and this would be a manipulative controller and they say this person persuades people out of their boundaries, they talk others into. Yes. They seduce others into carrying their burdens.

And they say, if someone like this does something for you, they may feel like they have some sort of a hold on you. Right? They, they may have some sort of a right to repayment because they did something for you. But, but they explain in the book, they say caring for someone so that they care back for us is simply an indirect means of control.

Someone else. So putting the, those two types of controllers aside, these type of people typically are undisciplined. They may be a slave to their impulses and their desires. It's just what they struggle with. And what they say is that having relied on bullying and in directiveness, They can't function on their own in the world.

Again, bullying being the aggressive type in directiveness, being that manipulator. And sadly, these type of people rarely feel loved. In fact, they're actually really afraid. They may not look afraid, especially the aggressive type you would think, oh gosh, this person is not afraid, but they actually have fear at their core.

And they believe that if they stop threatening or manipulating people, they would be abandon. So often that drives them. The next type are non-responsive. So these are people who really can't hear the needs of others, or don't choose to hear the needs of others. They kind of ignore, or maybe there's a lack of attention to their responsibility to love.

Other people. And you can especially see this in a relationship where maybe there's no room to be vulnerable. There's no room to, to feel hurt. There's no room to express a need. You kinda always have to be strong. You can think of a husband who just kind of, you know, ignores his wife's needs. He doesn't really allow his wife.

To speak up and say, Hey, I'm hurt by this. Or I'm struggling with this. There's really no room for that in their relationship. But speaking about this husband, they say he isn't responsible for her emotional wellbeing, but he is responsible. To her. And so of course there's limits on how much we can care for someone.

They need to care for themselves too, but we can't go too far in the opposite direction, especially to the people who really are within that sphere of responsibility that we have in our lives. And they say, when it comes to non-responsive, there are kind of two types similar to controllers, how there's aggressive and manipulative, uh, in this case.

There's a critical spirit towards others. So that's one type, someone who I guess kind of just looks down at other people and you know, when they see weakness in others, they just basically think, you know, why are you so helpless? Like, like get it together. And at the root of that is often this fact that we hate the fact that we have our own needs.

So we project that onto others. So when we see needs in other people, legitimate needs, we just kind of look down and say, you know, why are you so weak? Why don't you just suck it up and deal with it? So that's like the critical person, the critical non-responsive on the other end, there's someone who's so absorbed in their own desires and needs that they just forget about others.

Right. They just push out others because they, all they could think about is what they want and what they need. And of course, I guess that would be, uh, one definition of narcissism is just, you know, ignoring everyone else's needs because of what I want and what I. One of the lines I love the most from this part of the book is they said, take care of you, but not only you, we need to take care of other people as well.

And again, it goes back to helping people with their burdens, right? Those heavy boulders that they really can't carry on their own. And at the same time, giving them the freedom and the respect to carry those daily loads. In their own way, similar to when it came to people who are compliant and people who are avoidant, you can be both a controller and a non-responsive and they say that people like this, see others as responsible for their struggles and are on the lookout for someone to take care.

Of them. And I think those of us who come from broken homes, we can really relate to this because a lot of times we have this desire for someone to come in and rescue us for someone to take responsibility for the pain and the problems in our lives. We, we desire that savior. We desire a rescuer, and I think that that's a really good and beautiful desire in a lot of ways, but it's harmful to the extent that we're passively waiting for someone to save.

That we're not taking any action. We're not taking any ownership in our own lives. And this applies too, in your relationship with God, you know, God's not gonna do everything for you. He wants you to. With him. And so those are the four types. And just to go over them quickly, again, again, there's the compliant, there's the non-responsive, there's the controller and there's the avoidant.

And just to explain these, the compliant is someone who can't say no. Right. They say yes to basically everything, even things are bad for them. And, uh, they, they explain this person as someone who feels guilty and, or controlled by others and they can't set boundaries. Now, the non-responsive is someone who can't say yes.

Right. They there's someone who. Really pushes people aside and they set boundaries against their responsibility to love. Now, when it comes to, to the controller, you have someone who can't hear no, right. They wanna control everything. Maybe they're aggressive or they're manipulative, and they violate the boundaries of other people.

And then you have the avoidance and this is the person who can't hear. Yes. Right. They, they set boundaries against receiving the care of others. And one final point they make at this point in the book is that there's kind of two type of boundaries. There's functional boundaries, a person's ability to, to complete a task, a project or planning is a way that they say it.

And then on the other hand, there's relational boundaries and this is the ability to speak truth to others with whom we are in relationship. And they go on to explain that there's many people who have good function. Boundaries, but then poor relational ones. And you know, where someone's very, very competent maybe at their job or at school, they're very high performers, but they really struggle in their relationships.

They really struggle with boundaries. They really struggle with honesty in their relationships. And I I've seen this again and again, both hearing the stories of people who come from broken homes, reading the research, it, it really shows up that people who come from broken homes, sometimes they struggle with the function.

Boundaries. But a lot of times they're actually really good at the functional boundaries. They Excel at work. They Excel in school. They get good grades, you know, they do get at their job. They make good money, all those things, but then when it comes to their relationships, they really struggle there. And so this is something to give more thought, especially if you pick up the book, pay attention to this section.

And of course they say that the opposite can be true as well, where you can have someone who maybe is very good at relational boundaries that they're able to be open and to, to set boundaries with people in relationships, but they may be really bad at functional boundaries. You know, completing a task, a project, planning something, it, it may be a total disaster.

So it, it can go both ways. And I've seen the same in broken families when it comes to the opposite side of the spectrum. Another thing that they mentioned in the book is the law of boundaries. So these are 10 laws of boundaries and they list 'em all up. We don't have time to go into all 10, but basically they say that the laws of boundaries are like the laws of physics.

So one of the laws of physics is of course gravity, what goes up, must come down in our atmosphere. And so, you know, you can't fly on your own. You. Need a jet pack. You need a plane, you need something like that. It's just the way it is. These are laws of physics that we can't go against. And so when it comes to, to boundaries, these are rules of life that, that we can't beat, or we can't avoid.

And so even if, you know, we don't know those rules or we refuse to live by them. They still apply to us. We can't get around them. We'll still feel their effects in our lives. So since we can't go through all 10, I want to just give you six of them. So the, the first law of boundaries is the law of sewing and reaping.

And what they basically mean here is cause and effect. If you eat unhealthy food and you don't ever work out your health will. Right. Your body will begin to fall apart. If you spend more money than you have, you're gonna end up being stressed about money and you're gonna end up being a slave to debt.

And so there's that cause and effect, relationship everywhere in our lives. And what they say is that boundaries force the person who is doing the sewing. The cause also to do the reaping the effect. And so basically we're gonna experience the consequences of our own actions, whether those are good consequences or, or bad consequences, we're gonna feel the effects of the decisions of the actions that we have in our own lives.

One of the things they point out that's really common is that a lot of times we may be tempted to rescue irresponsible people. And they say that's actually really damaging because those people need to experience the consequences of their actions. They need to experience those negative effects, uh, of what they're doing with their lives.

And, and if we simply rush in and save them, From those negative effects, we're enabling them. We, we do have to let people fail and that sounds kinda harsh. And it's really hard to do, especially when we really care about someone. I think parents probably have the hardest time doing this with their children, especially once the kids grow up and they need to be responsible on their own.

If parents rush in and prevent any negative effects, prevent anything bad from happening. When their child is doing something wrong or bad, then the kid's gonna just continue doing that. They're never gonna change until they experience the negative effects from their actions. So that's law. Number one, the law of sewing and reaping again, cause and effect law.

Number two is a law of responsibility. It can be tempting to think that I'm only responsible for myself. I have no obligation to other people and that. False. That's not true. We, we do have an obligation to other people. And one of the lines they use in the book is that we are to love one another, not be one another.

And so we need our separateness, our individuality, but at the same time, we need to treat people well, and we need to follow the golden rule. We need to treat other people like we want to be treated, but at the same time, like I mentioned, we need to give people the freedom to make mistakes. Another way of saying is we can help people grow.

But we can't grow for them. You know, you could help your friend with their fitness. You could help your friend learn how to manage their money, but you can't work out for them and, and you can't manage their money for them. They have to do it on their own. And so there's that give and take there's that balance between being responsible for someone and then letting them.

Kinda do things on their own. So that's law, number two, the law of responsibility law. Number three is the law of power. Now, if you're familiar with alcoholics anonymous or any 12 step program, a key part of it is admitting that you're powerless over something, right? Whether that's alcohol or sex or some substance.

And so how does that work with boundaries? Well, while we are powerless over some things in our lives, in the book, they say we do. The power to do some things that will bring more power or self control down the road. And they just lay out a few things. They say, you know, you have the power to, to agree with the truth about your problems, basically to, to face your problems, to own them.

Even if you can't overcome them yet. Next is say you have the power to submit your inability to God. You can ask him for help. You can ask him for his grace. You can ask him for his strength. Next they say you have the power to search. And ask God and others to reveal more and more about what is within your boundaries.

Another one they say is you have the power to humble yourself and ask God and others to help you with your developmental injuries and leftover childhood. Needs, they go on, you have the power to turn from the evil that you find within you. You have the power to, to seek out those whom you have injured and make amends and on and on.

And so, you know, while we may be powerless over some things in our lives, we do have power over certain things and we can work to gain more and more self-control in areas of our Relion. At this point, they quote the serenity prayer, and they really say that this could be the boundary prayer. So if you listen closely, they.

God grant me the serenity to accept the things. I cannot change. The things that I powerless over the courage to change the things I can, the things that I have some power or self-control over and the wisdom to know the difference. And so I think there's a lot of wisdom in that prayer and understanding that there is a balance here.

They also touch on the limit in our ability to help other people. And they say, you cannot change others. More people suffer from trying to change others than from any other sickness. And it is impossible. What you can do is influence others, but there is a trick. Since you cannot get them to change, you must change yourself so that their destructive patterns no longer work on you, change your way of dealing with them.

They may be motivated to change if they're old ways, no longer work. So that's law. Number three, the law of power law. Number six, I'm skipping ahead here. Long number six is a law of evaluation. So basically they say it's really, really, really important to know the difference between hurt and. They give the example of going to the dentist.

So if you have a cavity in one of your teeth, you go to the dentist and obviously it's gonna hurt when they take out that cavity. Right? It's not gonna be pleasant. Maybe they numb you up, but eventually you're gonna feel some pain, but if you ask the question. Did it harm me? The answer is no, it actually helped you, even though it did hurt.

Now, on the other hand, if you think about like eating sugar or something, that's not healthy for you, you can ask, did it hurt you? Was it painful? And of course the answer is, well, no, of course not. But did it harm you? And the answer is yes, of course it wasn't good for me in the long run. And so there is a difference between hurt and harm.

And I love this distinction. They say things can hurt. But not harm us. In fact, they can even be good for us and things that feel good. It can be very harmful to us. And, and I think the prime example is when you're in a dating relationship or maybe even an engagement and, you know, you need to break up with the person that you're with.

You come to the realization that this is not right. This is not what you're meant to do. Uh, it can be really, really painful to go through that, both for you, but especially the person you're breaking up with. However, you know, if that's what's best for that person, that's what's best for you. You're not harming.

Right. Ultimately, you're doing it for what's good for you and what's good for them. And so again, there's a difference between hurt and harm. And we really need to recognize that that in life we're going to hurt people. That's inevitable. It's sad, but that's just inevitable. That's what's gonna happen in our broken world, but we can avoid as much as possible harming other people.

And so next time you're in a situation where maybe you need to have an uncomfortable conversation with someone, or you need to do something that's gonna hurt someone. Ask yourself the question. Am I just gonna hurt them or am I gonna harm them? Because there is a difference. So that's law, number six, the law of evaluation law.

Number nine. Again, we're skipping ahead is the law of activity. Basically, we need to take action in life. We can't sit around and wait for something to happen. We have to try things. Even if we fail, we have to try things. We have to bring ourselves to action, which can be really difficult in some situ. And again, other people can't do it for us and they use an awesome analogy in the book.

They say, I have been told that when a baby bird is ready to hatch, if you break the egg for the bird, it will die. The bird must Peck its way out of the egg, into the world. This aggressive workout strengthens the bird, allowing it to function in the outside. Robbed of this responsibility, it will die. And so you can see how, when we do things for other people that they should do for themselves or other people do things for us that we should do for ourselves, it can actually be harmful.

It actually damage us, uh, in a serious way for the long term. And so we, we need to understand that we need to take action and we need to do the things within our responsibility and allow other people to do the things within their responsibility. That's law number. The law of activity law. Number 10 is the law of exposure in the book.

They say that boundaries need to be made visible. To others and communicated to them in relationship. They go on to say that we secretly resent, instead of telling someone that we are angry about how they have hurt us. Often we will privately endure the pain of someone's irresponsibility instead of telling them how their behavior affects us and other loved ones information that would actually be helpful to them.

And so basically we can't expect people to read our. I mean, how often do we hear that though? Right? We, we know that, but it's really hard to do. It's really hard to do. Like I screw this up all the time. I forget to say things to my wife communicate things to my wife. And so she won't know. She won't know unless I tell her my boundaries and other things.

And the danger here. If we don't communicate our boundaries is that if our boundaries are not communicated, they say and expose directly, they will be communicated indirectly or through manipulation, passive aggressiveness. Basically, if we don't say it explicitly, we're gonna do it in passive aggressi ways.

And I've fallen into this too. I'll be the first to admit that, you know, instead of going through the uncomfortable conversation or the conflict that it's involved, when you need. Express a boundary or a frustration or some problem to someone I I've been tempted and sometimes fallen into being a, you know, maybe a manipulative or being a little bit of, uh, passive aggressive.

And that is just never good. It always. Damages that relationship, maybe you don't see the effects now, but down the road, it will because of course it hurts trust. And so it's so much better to go through and learn how to have those difficult conversations and, and be explicit. With our boundaries, with the issues that we see with people instead of being indirect or manipulative.

So that's law, number 10, the law of exposure. So by this point, you got a lot to think about, right? There's a lot to this whole boundary thing. And if you wanna learn more, I really suggest that you pick up the book. Boundaries. And you can buy that wherever you buy books, uh, whether that's on Amazon or someone else.

Uh, we also have a link in the show notes to make it easy for you guys. So you can click in your, uh, podcast app, or you can go to the show notes, which I'll mention in a second. And, uh, in the book, you know, that covers a bunch of things. Some of the things that we talked about, but a lot we didn't talk about.

And so, you know, in the book they talk about what boundaries are they go into that more, what they protect, you know, how they're developed, how they're injured. How to repair them, some of the problems that come up, like we mentioned how to use boundaries and the whole goal of course, is so that you can achieve the healthy relationships and the purpose in your life that you were born to achieve.

And so I, I really recommend if you want more on this, if this is something that would be useful to you, useful to your relationships, useful to your life, go ahead and pick up that book and start working your. Through it. And if you prefer it in a different format to that, they actually have a course on boundaries.

I I'd probably start with the book, but if you wanna just jump into the course, the website is boundaries.me again, boundaries.me, not.com.me. And on there, you can find the course and there's some other content as well. If you wanna learn more about boundaries. And I think that's specifically from Dr.

Henry cloud, one of the authors of the boundaries book. The resources mentions are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 36. Again, restored ministry ministries, just singular.com/ 36. Six. Thank you so much for listening. Hope this has been useful to you. I hope it's been helpful. Uh, if it has been, I invite you to subscribe and invite you to share this episode with someone, you know, who needs to hear this content.

And always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#035: My Parents’ Divorce Exposed My Insecurities | Emily Luke

Emily knew her parents might divorce, but nothing could’ve prepared her for it. It made her feel alone. It made her feel like nobody understood. Feeling insecure, she sought security by trying to control things, especially her relationships.

In this episode, Emily shares her story and more:

• How she kicked healing down the road since she knew it would be painful

• The #1 thing that has helped her heal her broken idea of love and marriage

• How to handle anger toward your parents in a healthy way while honoring them

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Emily was away at college. When her dad called her, he was emotional and she knew what was coming. So she started crying and she asked him, she. are you and mom getting a divorce? And although she knew that one day that might happen, there's really nothing that it could have prepared her for it. And following that she, she felt so alone and she felt like nobody could understand what she was going through.

She questioned her identity. She questioned her worth, and it really ignited a desire in her to control things. Especially her relationships, which she used to feel some sense of security in this episode, Emily shares about that and more about how the trauma from her parents' divorce has affected her.

She talks about how she really pushed healing down the road. She didn't want to heal now. Because she knew it would be painful, even though she knew that she needed it. She shares how she's learned to handle her anger toward her parents while at the same time honoring them. And she has some advice on, on how all of us can do that as well.

She shares the one thing that has helped her to heal her broken idea. Of marriage. She touches on how sharing her story with the right people has been really healing for her. And she talks about a really beautiful desire that she has to parent her own children really well. And to do that side by side with her spouse, lots of great content in this episode.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce or separation. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 35 and today we speak with Emily. Luke. Emily is a recent graduate of Minnesota state university with a degree in marketing.

Since graduating, she took a job as a missionary on a college campus with the organization. Focus. And that job will allow her to do what she loves, which is helping college students really navigate life and the challenges that they've faced by sharing what she's learned over the years so that they can benefit as a child of divorce.

Emily. Really passionate about marriage and family as well. And in particular, she wants to help young people learn how to have healthy relationships before they're married. And she's also volunteered for many different nonprofits to give back the support that she's received that went any longer. Here's my talk with Emily,

Emily, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for making time. Yeah, thank you so much. I'd love to hear your story. So, so let's go right into it. How old were you when your parents, uh, separated? What happened? Uh, how did you react? Yeah, so I was 20 years old, so I was wait in college, which makes. It a little challenging, a different, um, story.

Mine's pretty unique in that way, but yeah, so I was 20 years old and I was a sophomore in college and my parents' relationship had been pretty Rocky throughout the last few years. So I remember getting a call for my dad and I was at my college apartment and I went out to the back step. Um, where no, there's no traffic.

And I remember just kind of knowing what the phone call was about. I remember him being emotional and me crying and just like asking him, are you and mom getting divorce? And yeah, I remember. that since the relationship had been so Rocky, that it was always a possibility, it was always gonna be something that may come up in the future or divorce, but mm-hmm I could never have prepared for it.

Like it was always something I was like, yeah. Someday, like maybe when my sister, I have younger sister when she graduates high school. Yeah. So it was just still something that I could not have possibly prepared for. So yeah. After that conversation, like what was going through your mind? What was going through your heart in that, in that instance?

Yeah, I think I definitely began to ask a lot of questions about marriage and family and mostly about myself. I think it. It created a lot of questions. I didn't even know that I like it exposed a lot of insecurity that I didn't know I had, because if these two people who created me whose love brought me into existence, like, and they can't even get along or stay together, like, it kind of felt like a huge schism within myself.

Like how can I. come to terms with myself in a lot of ways. And so it really pushed me to dig deep and uncover all the parts and all the insecurities within myself. It really causes you to kind of question your identity question, your worth, doesn't it? Yeah, definitely. And it, it, it wanted, it led me to look for firm foundation because the firm foundation that I.

that I was relying on in some form, even if it wasn imperfect seemed to crumble. And so I just, yeah, I was seeking that identity and that security. Yeah, that makes so much sense. So many of us go through that exact thing and we deal with it, you know, for years too, but I'm so happy that you you've been ahead of the game and we'll get into kind of your, your healing story, but you're really ahead of the game by kind of jumping on this problem right away.

A lot of people wait years and years to, uh, to find resources, to find help, to, to heal from something like this. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I know at the time. I was really faced with it. So yeah. So my parents doors when I was 20 I'm, 22 years old. So it was two years ago. But I remember at the time this I, this idea of yeah.

Healing and right away, I was like, well, I'm, I can, I'm gonna wait. I, I don't, I can't deal with it. Like, I, I dunno what I was gonna wait for, but I was like, no, I can't handle it right now, but I just remember. Thinking like, okay, this is gonna be super painful, but I want to try to heal now cuz later is not gonna be better and I'll just continue to hurt other people along the way.

If I don't decide to try to seek healing in the present. Absolutely. It's like having a broken leg and thinking, ah, it's just gonna hurt to fix it. It. You know, maybe I need to get surgery or something. So I'm just gonna wait. I'm just gonna wait. it's not gonna get better. Mm-hmm so I, I hear you. And were there any other ways that you reacted to that news to the breakdown in your parents' marriage or perhaps even just the reality of their marriage that had been there for so many years?

Yeah, definitely. I think throughout the divorce. Brought to light all of the ways that the marriage had been imperfect and also hurt, just hurt me throughout the last two years. And so my parents really, there was a lot of stuff that even started back when I was like 17. And so that was also when I was preparing to go to college.

So through those years, the like years of college, specifically, I mostly turned to an unhealthy romantic relationship myself for that security. And it was. Through that. And then through my parents, I realized like something in me, doesn't actually understand what marriage and relationship is for. Hmm. And it led me to really react out of these hurt places from myself.

And I think the example that I had had in my life mm-hmm and so. Then through the ultimate divorce, I ran back. So I had had this off and on relationship and I ran back to it, even though I had known and had come to terms with this is an unhealthy relationship. I just wanted to control something and grasp with something.

And so, Hmm. Definitely turned to the unhealthy relationship in my own romantic life. Yeah. Can relate. I think so many of us have been there. And what you said about control is so interesting. That's been something I've been thinking about a lot lately, how, when we go through something traumatic in life, whatever it is, but, but you know, your parents' divorce or separation being included in that we tend to just never wanna repeat.

The chaos, cuz it feels chaotic. It feels crazy. It feels out of control and we never wanna repeat that. And so what happens is that we tend to want to control everything else in our life to, like you said, give us some semblance of stability. Ha, have you seen that play out in your life? Yeah, definitely. I think it was through that, that wanting to change this, this past story of my parents and their lives that led me to kind of turn back to this relationship and say, you know, I'm gonna.

Choose that this relationship's gonna be different. Like I'm gonna not have my parents' story. And so I'm gonna prove to everyone that I can do it. Like I can control the situation into being a healthy relationship that doesn't end in divorce. Hmm. When really, like, I. I wasn't in a position to control another person.

You can never control another person, but I also wasn't in a position to truly understand healthy relationships, but definitely had, yeah, a lot of control in that situation. And through that trauma. So many of us deal with the same thing. We wanna kind of rewrite the story of our parents' marriage of our families.

Thinking that, you know, maybe it's hard to understand it's some deep psychology, but maybe, you know, we can go down that path and then like you said, make it end differently. And man, it just never goes that way. But uh, in psychology that's called a repetition compulsion. I learned that from, uh, Dr. Julius Sadusky and in a previous episode.

And it's so fascinating. So you could have someone like a girl or a guy who maybe mom or dad cheated on their spouse and they never wanna do that. Right. They have this desire never to do that. But then years later, they start slipping down that path because you know, like you said, they have this idea that maybe I can make it different.

Maybe I can control it. Or maybe they're just too focused on that bad thing in their life. They're not focused on kind of what they're going after more of. More focused on what they're running from. And it's so fascinating to me, how that ends up happening, how someone who maybe hates some behavior like alcoholism or an affair can end up going down that same path.

And you know, of course there's biological things involved too. I'm not trying to reduce it to just psychological, but, uh, it's, it's fascinating to me. Isn't that? Isn't that interesting? Yeah, definitely. And I feel like that's been something that I has actually been healing for me is to learn more. That as well as like kind of generational wounds, I think like that idea of, yeah.

That maybe there was. A divorce. Like you can see sometimes divorce happens within families. Like, yeah, my mom is a child of divorce as well. So just like these things that are within the families that we all dislike, like we can all say like, oh, I don't like this part of my family's history. Like, I don't wanna have this happen yet.

It ends up being a part of our stories. And I'm a friend believer that we are not our parents. Like we are not destined to make the same mistakes, but somehow yeah, there is something that like history repeats of itself a little bit. And so I. Something that's been so healing for me is to learn more about it and learn more about my parent or yeah, my parents' wounds and the wounds that were from their parents that were given to them and yeah.

Has led to a lot of self-awareness. But then also I can, a lot of forgiveness, I can understand where they're coming from and the hurt that they've experienced. Hmm. And that's led you down a different path. Yeah, definitely. And led me. A path to, yeah. And I don't think that now I'm like secure a hundred percent not gonna make the same mistakes, but can at least pinpoint them and not blame people or be resentful, have more understanding for them.

Compassion. Yeah. No, I think that's huge. And I think really that is the first step in healing is the awareness, because then we can go down to different path, but it is a journey and it's something I think that. Sadly, we'll always kind of have in the back of our minds. Um, I, I know that's true, you know, in, in my case with the breakdown in my parents' marriage, like I'm, I'm afraid of getting divorced and I know I'm very confident that will never happen and I'm doing things to prevent it, but I still have fear and I think that it may never go away and that's kind of sad, but I think we need to learn to master those fears instead of, you know, letting them control.

Yeah, definitely. I think it is a part of our story and a part that will play into our future relationships and future life decisions. But I think that's the beauty of life is that it, it doesn't have to be negative. Like doesn't ha just cuz that I also may always have that fear of having a divorce myself doesn't mean that it has to be a negative thing of like, oh, this is something that I'll have to live with.

Like it is sad, but it also then. Because I have that fear, it's led me to learn more about marriage and learn more about forgiveness and be able to apply those things. And like you said, it's a journey. I'm not have mastered them now in these two years of post divorce, but definitely has led me to have my story.

Be. Redemptive in a lot of ways and be more passionate about healthy marriages. That's beautiful. And I've, you know, been wrestling this with this stuff for 15 years since my parents, uh, separated a little more now. And, uh, yeah, I can say that, that there comes a point and I could tell you've already been there where you are faced with this brokenness in your past, this brokenness in your own.

and you have to make a decision. You have to decide, am I just gonna resign to it? Am I gonna let this control me? Control my future, control my marriage, my relationships, my career, all, all those areas of our lives. Or am I gonna do something about it? And I, I think it's really easy to fall into like a victim mentality thinking, oh man, you know, my family's broken.

Look at all these bad things that happened. And, and that's true. And we don't wanna make light of that. Like in, in very real ways, children of divorce are victims. But we're not meant to remain victims. And that's such a key point because if we don't switch our mindset from, you know, being a victim, to being a survivor to hopefully one day thriving, then we're always just gonna feel stuck and we're not made to feel stuck.

I definitely agree. And I think through people's stories they can learn to yeah. Actually be very grateful for their stories. Like mm-hmm I think that's something that's been huge for me is no, I'm not happy. My parents got divorced, but I. Grateful for yeah. All these lessons that I've learned. And so as much as if I could, in some way change, what happened with my parents and what happened in my life, I would, I would love to save myself and my sister from the suffering.

Um, as well as my parents from the suffering that they've endured in their lives. Mm-hmm but I am just something that I hope for is that we, goodness, more goodness can come from. Even though, ultimately I would've loved for us to never have experienced the pain that we have. Absolutely. Yeah. It can be redemptive and that's something, I think it's really hard when you're in the midst of, of mess in your family.

But if you think of any great movie, you don't judge the movie. By watching the first 20 minutes of it, or the first 30 minutes of it, you need to see the whole story. And of course in our lives, our, our lives are not a, you know, hour, two hour long movie. It, it spans much more time, but we can change. We can transform.

We can build, you know, a better life than what we had in the past, or maybe what we saw in our parents' marriage. And to me, that's so encouraging. That's so hopeful. Like I don't need to go down that same path. I can, I can go, uh, a different route. Yeah, that that's so hopeful. I wanna go back to one thing that you said.

I, I think the reason that we kind of go down the same path as our parents often is just the fact that we kind of repeat what we see around us. Like the people we surround ourselves with, which naturally is our family. When we're younger. Um, we kind of become like them. And I remember studying marketing cuz I, I did my MBA and did my finance degree in undergrad.

I remember studying how, um, in marketing, they, they pay attention to mirror neurons and these are neurons in our brains. That basically when we see something outside of us, we tend to like wanna do that thing. So for example, they, they give the example, like if you're watching a movie. and there's maybe some sort of an action scene.

Like you may kind of feel like, oh, I want, you know, I wanna do that thing. Or, you know, a simple thing. Like if someone on screen on a TV drinks, water, you'll, you'll start thinking, oh gosh, I'm actually thirsty. I would need to drink water, something like that. And so I think it's, uh, it's even written into our biology that we tend to repeat what's around us, which.

Brings us to the point that it's so important to surround yourself with good people, the people that you wanna be like, especially marriages that you wanna emulate. And that's something that were huge proponents of ReSTOR is just surrounding yourself with those, those marriages, those people that can really help you to grow.

And I think I can attest to that as well. When I was in college, I had the. Good fortune of meeting a young woman who was a nurse and married and living out her faith in a way that I wanted to live. And I wasn't. And so I was like, I wanna have all those three things. And so, um, it's very beautiful how the Lord has guided me in that.

And that's something that's part of my. Journey is yeah, just the Lord being part of my life, but, um, beautiful. I didn't become a nurse, but I hopefully have learned way more than I thought I would learn from this married woman and to her husband and their marriage. And now they're children. And so. Yeah, he, I just didn't go out seeking that.

I didn't go to college thinking I need to find a married couple to be around. Like, definitely not. I think in college, at least my experience like seeing a married couple was kind of weird. I don't know. It's not normal to have just married people hanging around colleges, but, um, I'm very fortunate that I was able to meet them and yeah.

Going into college, I never would've imagined my parents getting divorced either. So just how those things like. Like just came into my life without me necessarily seeking them out. But I have definitely learned so much from them. I think there's been times where I was like, there's just something I don't understand.

Like I don't get how it's working for them and I just don't get it. . And so that just had led me. It's a lot of frustration and just not understanding and thinking I should. I'm like, I should just know these things, but like you said, it wasn't something. Was around me and my upbringing. And I thought it was like, my parents were married when I was growing up.

Like I thought that was enough. And, and sometimes. It was enough to show me like the commitment, but there's more that needed to learn, obviously. So mm-hmm yeah, it's definitely very beautiful that I was able to encounter this married couple. Yeah, no, that's awesome. And I can relate with that frustration too.

I have a couple couples, a few couples who I just look up to so much. They just have such beautiful marriages. And I remember, you know, spending time with them, you know, knowing what I came from, I was like, is this. Like, are they putting on a show like seriously? Are they wearing a mask? Is this kind of just a performance for their kids or for visitors or something like that?

But the more I got to know them, the more I understood, like, no, this is so genuine. Like, like they really love each other. It doesn't mean they don't fight. It doesn't mean they don't argue. It doesn't mean that they don't, you know, have struggles, but man, they just love each other so much. And they're just so committed to working through whatever, uh, comes down the road.

Yeah. And I thought it was very beautiful too, like that I've learned is like, they actually. Like being around each other, like they, they actually talk, they actually like share their lives together. And I think that was something that was kinda, yeah. And new to me, like this concept of just, yeah, actually like being friends and delighting in one another.

And so that's something that. Yeah, you don't really know about people until you live life close by one another mm-hmm . And so it's such a gift to be around other married couples as a children of tours. Yeah, totally. So anyone listening, if you've never heard that advice, we say it a lot on this show, but try to find a couple.

I mean, maybe you already know one. Um, but if, if you don't find a couple who you look up to, who, who you respect and see if you can start building a relationship, maybe with one of the spouses and, uh, and then eventually perhaps you can open up to them and say, Hey, I come from a broken home. I really admire your marriage.

Would you be okay with me? You know, spending time with you or kind of mentoring me to so I can one day build the same and it's been again, so healing for me, like Emily said, it's been healing for her too. So we, we highly recommend it. We could talk about that all day, but I wanna keep moving. Uh, you already touched on this a little bit, but how did you see your parents' divorce affect you in the years that followed.

Again, you mentioned some things, but was there anything else? Yeah, I think, yeah, it led me to, um, a few unhealthy decisions in my personal romantic life, but it also has led me to dive deeper. As I've mentioned, a few other things that I has just led me to yes. Seek healing and radical way. And part of the ways that I've encountered that is through yeah.

They're ReSTOR. Yeah, ministry as well as just the, the Facebook group that ReSTOR has, has been so beautiful for me. I think I was like one of the first people of the signup. Yeah. But you were, um, and yeah, it's been so beautiful and it's beautiful how technology can work, especially in the time we can see this last year, how technology has been very wonderful, but there's an aspect of like yearning for more.

And so through the yearning for more. I was able to just ask the hard questions of people around me, of especially women around me. Like, I think there's a few people in my life where I was like, I thought their parents had been divorced or I'd heard of it, but I wasn't quite sure. So I kind of went out on a leap of faith and just like asked people like, Hey, are your parents like divorced?

Like, so this is a weird question and was able to get a group together and just have like an in person, group of, of women. that just shared our stories and yeah, there's so much healing that can happen. Without specifically dressing the divorce that you can find. But I think there's just a more beautiful, like we have this wound sometimes of being told, like, we shouldn't talk about it.

Like everyone's parents are divorced, you don't need to talk about it. Like, but just having the freedom to be able to talk about it and just have someone hear you and say like, I don't really exactly with every part of your story, but my parents also were divorced when I was out of the house or my parents also were divorced when I was very, very young or whatever it may be.

Being able to come together and just be heard and seen in, it has just been very healing for me, um, in the last few years. That's amazing. And I, I agree. I think that offline community is so important too. And I haven't talked to you about this before, but we that's been something that we've been. Talking about a little bit of ReSTOR is taking the community offline and, you know, starting groups here and there.

So I'd love to talk to you more about that off of the show, but yeah, I think, I think can be super useful. And, uh, something that I've benefited from too is, you know, the technology, like you said is good, but it only goes so far. And so we really need to, to go deeper and, uh, doing an in person thing, I think can, can be real helpful.

So that's something on our list and, uh, it actually came from your feedback as well. So, uh, thank you. For sure. How, how did you cope? How did you cope with the pain that came from the breakdown in your family? Uh, talk about maybe the healthy ways and the unhealthy ways. Yeah, I think unhealthily starting with that um, I mm-hmm

I reacted pretty poorly. I would say. I mean, it's hard it's I wrestle with whether it was poorly or whether it was not, cuz it has like me to where I am now, but I was very reactive right away. Um, like anything that would happen, I was very vocal about it. I was very angry. And I let that show because I think it was definitely built up over the last few years.

And mm-hmm , I just knew how UN unhealthy would be told in all the emotions that being said, maybe exploding with them. Wasn't very good either, but that is just something that I did and yeah, I, I found. Yeah. A lot of people, like a lot of children, dunno how to react and feel like they should be silent about it.

And then their parents are like, oh, they're doing well. Like they're doing all these things are super, they're doing great. It's like, no, they're not. They're just not showing you all the ways in which they're struggling. And I opted for just showing people all the ways that I was struggling and being very vocal about it and yeah, made a lot of mistakes through that, but also very grateful that I was able to like, Let it all be said and heard, and then now be able to not hold these things that I was mad about and have them already be talked about.

So that was one way that I coped for sure. And another way is yeah, seeking counseling. I think that's something I'm super passionate about and advocate about is just, yeah. Being able to allow someone to hear you and. An explanation for the things like you were talking about, um, some of the psychology, like that's so freeing to me to be like, yes, this is, you're not alone in how you feel.

This is something that we are somewhat wired to feel like we're wired to feel a little now, like unsteady now that. Your foundation of a family is broken. It's like, oh, thank you for, for someone to tell me that was just very freeing. So counseling is huge, has been a huge part of my coping over the last few years as well.

That's so good. Yeah. It's the, the understanding, the awareness is kind of hard to communicate to someone who maybe hasn't been there and experienced it, but it's so healing. It's so helpful. Like you said, for someone to kind of step into your story and say, Hey, what you've been through it isn't right. You know, it's kind of, it's pretty messed up actually.

And you know, what you're feeling is actually really normal for someone who's been through that experience. And, you know, just someone who can offer us new information and give us some. Tips and skills on, on how to deal with it. It can just be so helpful. And like you, I'm a huge proponent of counseling too.

I've done five, six years of it. And, uh, man, it, it has helped me in so many ways to, to heal and to cope. Like you said, mm-hmm yeah. And the, and the resources too, from our story is huge, like huge aspect of that too. I'm not seeing an actual counselor or therapist has been helpful in something that I've done, but I've done also a.

Of research, a lot of Googling of like, that's what led me to restore. There's a lot of just like searching my story and looking for some other people to connect. And so through the stories of, of restored in the blogs and reading them and understanding that someone knows that I'm going through and has had a parent who struggled with the same things my parents have struggled with has been so huge.

And then yeah, connecting through the Facebook page of, with other people in a like real lifetime. Situation like there's healing for the past, but then also like an aspect of divorce is that it's a open wound, always. Like there's always something new happening. And so having that community to be able to talk to when something is happening right now is also very, very helpful.

Absolutely. And for anyone not familiar, maybe you're listening for the first time we have an online community, uh, where people it's a basically right now it's a, a Facebook group group, a private Facebook group, or anyone, a teenager, a young adult who comes from a broken family can speak freely about what they're dealing with, the pain and the problems, but also be challenged to grow and maybe offer their insight when other people are dealing with certain things.

And it's been awesome to see just. Chip in and, you know, support each other and give advice. And, uh, there there's just so much value in a community as opposed to maybe one person just saying, Hey, do this. And so, uh, that that's, uh, on Facebook, I'll tell you guys about that at the end. If you are interested in joining.

Uh, we we'd love to have you let's uh, let's continue on, uh, what, what are like two or three things that have helped you heal the most? I'm sure this overlaps with the coping mechanisms that you talked about, like counseling, but what are some things that have really helped you heal? Yeah, I would definitely say, um, the, the reality is there's a lot of bad advice out in the world, but yeah, through the good community, having.

People recommend good advice and good books. Like I love reading. Um, and so learning more about forgiveness and marriage, like specifically what's been helpful for me is like being a person of faith, like learning more about what my faith actually teaches about marriage has been huge because yeah, there's a lot said, but like, what is the actual truth is hard or what is actually successful has been.

Like what actually works, like all this advice, like, okay, there's a lot out there, but what actually helps create a lasting marriage or lasting relationships? Um, what actually sets my heart free to forgive and to have a healthy relationship in the future has been huge. Something I definitely recommend and yeah, just sharing my story has been huge.

I. Yeah. There's a lot of parts in my life where I was like, I am never gonna share that with anyone or I'm never gonna yeah. Expose myself in those ways. Like, I'm never, I'm not gonna leave myself open to criticism or allow someone to know my deepest thoughts or yeah. Mistakes, but just in a. Prudent way, like sharing what I've experienced has just been so healing, but also beautiful to see how healing it is for other people.

Like so many times have I heard like, yeah, I've experiencing the same exact thing and I would never have shared if you didn't. And so, yeah, it's just beautiful how that. Is so true and how we're so wired and like conditioned to believe the lie that if we share, we won't be received well and like not, not good things will happen, but really if you find the right people, like don't get me wrong.

There's maybe not right. Times are people to share with, but the right people in situations. It can be so freeing and healing for both parties, all parties. So those are, yeah. Some things that have really helped me. Absolutely. No, I love that. And I've seen that play out in my life too, so I can totally relate just, it takes courage though, for that first person, someone needs to like, say something if it's in a group environment.

Um, but you're right. Finding the right people and talking about it has, has been helpful for me. And we've, I've seen it in other people's lives, who we've worked with through ReSTOR too. So that, that's an awesome thing. It's a great tip for anyone. Listening as well. And there's so many things, I think that happen in life where we maybe don't understand them in the moment.

Um, then eventually we became, become very ashamed that we maybe fell into that vice, or we did this bad thing and then we continue on and we think that we're broken and were flawed in an air repairable way. And, you know, to everyone listening, the difference between guilt and shame is guilt is says, basically I did something bad.

I did something wrong and that's a good, healthy thing. Shame is where I, because of that, I think I am wrong. I am bad. I'm permanently flawed. And one of the things that that does, like you said, is it keeps us hidden. And when we say hidden, when we don't talk about the thing that is on our heart, the thing that we're struggling with, the shame grows bigger and bigger and bigger, which prevent us, prevents us from talking about it, which is the one thing that's actually gonna bring healing.

And so we just get stuck in this cycle, but like you said, when we start to be vulnerable, when we start to open up to other people and say, Hey, this is what I'm dealing with. Not only does it defeat our own shame, thinking that, you know, again, we're irreparably broken. But it also helps other people to overcome their shame and shame, I think is the greatest barrier to healing.

It's just insane. And Brene brown has done a lot of research on that and she talks about like vulnerability, power vulnerability, but yeah. Ha have you seen that to be true in your life? Yeah, definitely. I love BNE brown and that teaching is so. Freeing to learn. And, and I really, I think it's so freeing for all parties involved when it comes to divorce.

Like, like I said, like learning more about my parents' wounds has been helpful and to realize, like, not to shame my parents and, and like, I don't wanna cause guilt, but like, recognizing if they're upset with me for acknowledging my feelings under saying, I'm not trying to shame them, but if they feel guilty like that, isn't my intention.

I do by sharing my story. I'm not in no way trying to shame anyone, but if there's guilt there that I don't need to feel like I can have that freedom to still still share my story without trying to shame anyone. But if guilt is involved, then they can wrestle with that and hopefully find healing. So likewise, with, with children of divorce, recognizing.

to not put shame on ourselves or others, but if guilt is involved to help that be a moving force to find more healing and more freedom. That's an excellent point. I think it speaks to so many people where they're at right now, because like you said, we are afraid of causing that guilt or perhaps even some shame that's not intended, like you said, but, uh, that can come up in our parents.

If we were to speak the truth about how, uh, their decisions, their marriage, their divorce has affected us. And. It's it's a tough spot to be in. I, I can totally relate to that, but it it's an important to, you know, just know, obviously there's a right way to do it. Like you said, that that's a great point.

We're gonna be producing some content around that, by the way, to how to share your story properly, because there's definitely some ways to not do it properly. And, uh, and so we're gonna be producing some content around that, but it it's huge. And I wanna go back to one thing that you said before, and that is kind of you acting out as a reaction to the breakdown of your family and man, that's so common.

Um, I, I, we've seen two reactions and the psychology backs us up to, to, uh, to trauma basically, or, or to shame one is kind of to hold everything inside and make sure everything on the outside looks perfect. Like flawless. Like you couldn't tell a thing that something was wrong and that's, I would say most children of divorce, but then there's also, and this can come into everyone's story at certain points, people who kind of wear it on their sleeves.

And, um, in a way I actually think that's healthier. So I wanna affirm you in that cuz I think it can be like we talked about with the shame, it can be so damaging to hide things, to keep it from everyone. And then you just, there's this big divide between, you know, who people think you are and who you actually are.

And so, um, yeah, that we've seen both of those reactions, but one of the things that, that I've learned as well is if we don't find an outlet for our frustration, someone to talk to some way, a healthy way to take it out, uh, it often comes out in anger. It's actually a really, really common thing. And so there's nothing, if that's you right now listening, there's nothing to be ashamed of with that.

That's actually really normal. And so just wanna make sure you know, that you're not alone, that's a normal experience and you shouldn't be ashamed of that. And so finding those healthy ways, like Emily saying to, to heal to cope, I, I think is just so important. Yeah, definitely agree with that. And.

Recognizing anger is in, in some ways justified and not anger, maybe towards a person, maybe at the time. That was where I think I was wrong was that I took it out in the wrong ways towards my parents specifically, but recognizing my anger is at the situation. My anger is at what led us to this point. And maybe I am frustrated with the decisions that people have made, but it's the decisions that I'm angry about.

My parents, like not them. And that's like the difference between shame and guilt is like, yeah, I had no intention of having my frustration be at the identity of my parents, cuz I want to honor that, but maybe I am frustrated with their actions and just even making that distinction has been so helpful for me to properly still express my frustration or my emotions, but in a healthy way.

No, that's awesome. That's a great distinction. And, uh, yeah, I, I think we, we have to let our feel, we have to let ourselves feel our feelings. And I think so often we just like stuff them away and ignore them or avoid them. And they're just gonna come out again. It's like holding, you know, beach ball underwater.

It's just kind of pop to the surface eventually. And so I, I'm glad, you know, you you're wise beyond your years to be able to. Uh, recognize that and start working on it. Was there anything else that helped you to, to heal that you wanted to add? Yeah, I mean like good community. Good. I think, I mean, I guess a huge thing would be just pushing through the hardest parts of whether that be that frustration or whether that be the.

I know I've heard a lot of people, like not even knowing how to feel or like thinking they're okay. And pushing through that to like, not to like, I guess that's my thing is like, I'm the reactive one. So when I encounter people who are more like have maybe pushed things down, it seems like I'm saying like, no, be angry, but I'm not trying to pull things up if you have healed them.

But I want to actually. Make sure that they're healed. And so having that freedom to. Feel, or if you're in a spot of maybe not feeling anything to like push through that and like continue to wrestle has just been huge. Like there's so many times where I thought I was like so far from being healed or receiving healing in one area and I still am.

It's still a journey. But then like before I knew it, I would look back and see how parts of my story don't hurt as much as I did before and actually have become stronger. Like I said, That awareness of how marriage is and how relationships are like being able to be stronger in some ways than I would ever would've been without the divorce or other parts of my story.

So yeah, just pushing through is like a huge thing that I would advocate for. That's great advice cuz when you're in it, it can be really hard. You think there's no end to it, but basically you're saying there is an end it to, to certain things. And if you keep pushing forward, you're gonna find the answer.

You're gonna find the solution. You're gonna find the healing. Mm. Yeah. You mentioned that healing is a journey. Couldn't agree more, obviously. You're still on that journey. I am too. But how, how is your life different now that you've healed and, and grown? I would say my life is in so many ways more like, I feel more alive, I would say.

Yeah, there was so many ways that I was blind to. I was weak, blind to ways that I didn't know healthy life, but through, through all of the struggles that I've endured, like being able to be more passionate about healthy relationships and then seek that. And, um, and like not just romantic relationships, like friendships and with, with my parents or with other people that like truly relationships is what we're all yearning for.

And so just being able to have a more healthy outlook on them, um, more awareness of them has been able to allow me to have like what I've been looking for, what everyone's looking for, which is relationship. And so to have that more and have it more alive has just been ways in which yeah. I've just grown a lot and had a lot more freedom in.

That's amazing. I think the experience can be compared to almost like having, uh, you know, a photo that's kind of like gray scale. Like you, it's all gray. And then eventually when you, you kind of deal with some of the stuff in your life, when you start healing, when you start coping in healthy ways, instead of unhealthy ways, you start to see life in color.

It's not all gray. It starts to become more beautiful. You start to enjoy things again. I know that was true for me, cuz it can just be so hard and depressing. When you're in the midst of it, but I love that you said, feel more alive. That that's what we want for everyone. And that's what, you know, I want in my life.

And I know you do. And so that, that's so beautiful that that's been the result of your healing. And I, I'm so confident in you. And I know that you're gonna just continue down this journey and help a lot of people along the way to, to experience that same freedom. Yeah. Thank you so much. I'm yeah. So grateful for all that you're doing and all that you've done and how it's impacted my story.

Definitely for the. Absolutely. And just thank you for the feedback. I, we listen so much to the people in our community and the people who interact with us. And so you've played a big role in like really shaping what restored is becoming, cuz we've only scratched the surface. So thank you. Too. Yeah, you're welcome.

You, you touched on this, uh, already, but I just wanna give you a chance to, to talk about anything else that, that you would like to, and that is, you know, how have you seen the effects of your parents' divorce, um, affect your dating relationships and, and you know, how maybe you would think it will affect your future marriage.

Haven't experienced positive dating yet in my life. Like I have gone through a lot of. Just my own brokenness, my own wounds, my own vices, but very much like have been taking this time in college to, I think yeah. Distance myself from dating. Um, just because. also our culture. I think our culture sets us up for failure.

I mean, I'm, I know that it sets us up for failure when it comes to dating. And so just taking that distance from it and being able to say, what do I want out of dating? What actually will help me have a healthy relationship. Whether I marry this person or whether I don't marry this person has been huge.

And so. Then in the future of actually dating, I hope to be able to implement those as imperfectly as I will do. And then in my, yeah, in my marriage, just to, to parent, I think my biggest thing is I want to then from that marriage from all that I've learned, be able to then parent well has, is like, Something that I really would love to do and parent together not be alone in it, obviously.

And yeah. And, and I think a huge thing is like have marriage and family within a community of other married and family, people married. Married people with families cuz that's something that was, I think lacking in my life is I didn't have other close families around me. Mm. And so like being able to learn together as, um, families and as married couples, just because there's ways in which we're all blind, we all have blind spots.

And so being able to. Yeah, learn and grow together. So community is huge. Yeah, absolutely. Isolation just destroys people, destroys marriages. And I, I think that's probably a common theme in so many marriages is that they were isolated in one way or another. You know, maybe they did have a lot of friends around them, but maybe they didn't bring them into the struggles that they were dealing with or open up and, you know, maybe get some feedback, some help, some support.

So, yeah, I, I love that. That you wanna build a structure around you that would support your marriage and support you in being a good parent. Definitely look forward to it. We'll see how it all plays out. Yeah. Well, we're here for you. We're on this journey with you and just honored to, to be able to, to serve you.

I wanna close out by just asking you, what advice, what encouragement would you give to, to someone who is listening right now who feels broken? Who feels stuck in life and you know, is going through a lot of the things that you went through because of the breakdown in their family, their parents' divorce or separation.

What encouragement, what advice would you give them? Yeah, I think I would definitely encourage people to, yeah. I think in my darkest moments, I deeply deeply from like, believe it's like I was alone and that nobody understood. And I'd say as a childhood divorce, recognizing there are people around you that do feel the way that you do, even if they don't have your exact story and that even if people around you, aren't children of divorce, they have other sufferings in their lives that they can share with you.

Like, can you guys can help each other out? But also like not to shy away from people who aren't children of divorce, because they can shine a light in worries that maybe you thought was healthy and normal, but actually wasn't. And that sometimes is super painful to be like, oh, I didn't know that that was really unhealthy.

And that's all that I've ever known, but to be able to like, have them love you through it and. To, to show you what healthy looks like has been something that was really helpful. And yeah, like I said, just pushing through all the ugly parts. There's a lot of ugly parts, but it it's what leads you to a more.

Healthy part. Like when you look at an actual wound, like one it's like the few days after, and you still have stitches, like, it looks kind of ugly, but you push through and then you'll still have a scar too. Like we've talked about like, it's still part of our story, but it doesn't have to be all negative.

It can lead to like a healthier and more passionate about, about like marriage and family in the future. So that's probably my encourage. Beautiful. How can people connect with you if they want to, uh, talk with you or follow up about this? Yeah, I mean, I'm not super on technology these days, but I do have Instagram I'm on the Facebook group.

That's probably the biggest one. If you guys are interested in the Facebook group, I love being a part of that sounds great. No, and we'll, uh, we'll throw those in the show notes for you guys. And like I said, I'll tell you about the community. If you wanna join that afterward, Emily, it's been such a pleasure.

It's been an honor. Um, knowing you and knowing your story and just walking with you through the, the challenging times you've been through, but also seeing you grow and thrive. It's been so inspiring, honestly, when you know, I see someone like you, who. You've been through a lot. You've struggled. You've made mistakes.

I've been there too, but you're growing, you're getting better. You're getting stronger and you know, you're gonna go on and you're gonna live an awesome life. And so I just, yeah. So honored to interview you, so honored to, for you to share your story with ReSTORs, uh, podcast listeners. And just, yeah, so grateful to, to have you on and grateful that you're a part of our store.

Yeah. Thank you so much for the opportunity. Very grateful to be able to share with everyone, my story and encourage others to share as well.

I really enjoyed that solid conversation with Emily. Two quick things for you. You can join resorts online community. Like I mentioned, it's a free private, online community. Some of the benefits, it just gives you a safe place to speak openly about the pain and the problems that you face. If you're someone who comes from a divorce or a separated family, it'll also help you not feel so alone.

You'll be able to relate with the other people in the community as well. And you'll be challenged too, to grow into a better, stronger person. It's really simple to join the community. You can just go to restored ministry. Dot com slash community. Again, that's restored ministry ministries to singular.com/community on that page.

Just fill out the form and then we'll add you to the group. It's as simple as. Like Emily, if you'd like to share your story with restored, we'd love to hear it. We'd be honored to hear it. And it's really simple to do. And I'll tell you how to do that in a second, but some of the benefits of sharing your story, it's actually one of the steps to healing.

Reflecting on your story is actually healing for your brain on a neural biological level. And there's been studies that have shown too, that people who write about emotionally significant events in their. Are less depressed. They're less anxious. They're happier, they're healthier. And if you take it a step further and share your story with someone else like we do through the ReSTOR blog, that's extra healing, it's healing again on a neurobiologic level for your brain.

And one of the other benefits that maybe doesn't just help you, but helps other people, is that anyone who's going through something similar that you are can really look to your story for hope, for some guidance that can get some advice. From you. And Emily mentioned that too, how she, you know, read through some of the stories on the restored blog.

And so that's a, a huge benefit as well. And to share your story again, it's simple. Just go to restored ministry.com/story again, restored ministry. Dot com slash story. Just fill out that form. The form will guide you in telling a short version of your story, and then we'll turn it into an anonymous blog article, uh, that you can share with whoever you want.

And so we'd love to hear your story. If you wanna share with us, the resources mentioned during the show notes ever stored ministry.com/ 35. Again. Restore ministry.com/three five. Thanks so much for listening. We do this for you. If this has been useful for you, please share this episode with someone, you know, who could use it.

Go ahead and subscribe, and always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#034: The Best of 2020: Restored Podcast Highlights

We know. “Best” and “2020” don’t belong in the same sentence… what a year.

To celebrate the good, here are 10 of the best highlights from the Restored Podcast in 2020.

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Featured Episodes

#018: The Dating Blueprint: What Women Want But Won't Tell Men | Jason Evert

#020: Navigating Singleness | Sarah Swafford

#019: How to Find Your Soulmate Without Losing Your Soul | Jason Evert

#011: I Thought My Parents’ Divorce Didn’t Affect Me | Jennifer Cox

#008: The Hardest Part of My Life | Miranda Rodriguez

#013: Why We Repeat Our Parents' Mistakes and How to Avoid It | Dr. Julia Sadusky, PsyD

#015: Navy SEAL: Calm is Contagious | Mike Sarraille

#022: A Quick and Simple Healing Exercise

#032: How to Navigate the Holidays: Advice from 11 Children of Divorce

#014: Psychologist: How to Handle Fear and Anxiety During a Crisis (Like the Coronavirus) | Dr. Julia Sadusky, PsyD

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Welcome to the Restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce or separation so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 34 and as 2020 comes to a close, we wanted to do something a little bit different. So we created, uh, an episode with highlights from the episodes that we produced this year and what you're gonna hear 10 excerpts from those episodes. And if you're new to the podcast, this is perfect for you, cuz you get a little sample of what our content is like. It's also great if maybe you've been listening to the, uh, podcast for a while, but you've missed a few. This will give you a good overview of our content as well.

And we cover a lot of different topics. Everything from, you know, building love that lasts, finding a spouse, navigating single life. We also hear stories from our audience about how their parents divorced has affected them. We talk. How to avoid repeating the mistakes that you saw in your parents' marriage.

So you can have a great marriage and avoid getting divorced yourself. We speak to a Navy seal on how to say calm. In a crisis, talked to psychologists on how to handle anxiety and fear and much more. And these episodes that you're gonna hear, that the clips that you're gonna hear are in no particular order.

Uh, we wanted to pick every episode from this year, but of course we couldn't. So we had to narrow it down to 10 and some of these are based on the episodes that were the most popular. That you guys loved be there were a lot of downloads for those episodes. Uh, others were based on just, uh, things that stood out to us episodes that we wanted to, to highlight because we thought that they needed to be highlighted now, by the way, I, if you wanna listen to the episodes that we present, In this particular episode, maybe you wanna go back and listen to the full thing instead of just the, the clip you can do that, uh, throughout the show, I'll guide you through it and I'll tell you which episode it is, but we're also gonna have a list in our show notes.

If you want to go back, maybe forget which episode it was, you can go back and see the list and that list will be available@restoredministry.com slash 32. Again, restored ministry.com/ 32. And I'll remind you about that at the. First up is episode 18 with Jason ever titled the dating blueprint, what women want, but won't tell men, this is by far our most popular episode and a lot of great practical guidance for men on how to pursue a woman the right way.

And so my question to do you, yeah. How can a man know if she's the one I know if they'll read the book, the guys will get 10 questions asked to know if she's the one, but what do you, uh, explain a little bit about how they can know that? Yeah. Well, I mean, one of the things you gotta do is like, okay, what is it you you're really looking for in a, in a future spouse?

You know, do you want, um, are you in a agreement in terms of like the size of a family? Is it in terms of like, does she possess a virtue? Because even if you marry miss universe, But she does not possess virtue. You will have a miserable marriage. Whereas if you marry someone who might not be miss universe, but you're still attracted to her, but she has virtue.

You're gonna have a happy marriage. And so you really gotta ask, you know, does, does she possess virtue? Is she working on that? It doesn't mean that she's gotta be a Saint, but she at least needs to want. To be one, uh, you've gotta ask yourself to fam does she share your faith? You know, hopefully that's something that's important to you and that you're gonna want your kids to be saints.

And is she gonna help you get to heaven? So you've gotta ask that stuff. I mean, you know, does your relationship have a good history, you know, or is it been an emotional roller coaster soap, opera, you know, drama fighting bickering back together, break apart. Because the best indication, the future of relationship is a passive relationship.

And if the past has been pretty darn Rocky, um, that's probably what you have to look forward to for a lifetime, because it's like, well, you know, she's really stressed right now, or I'm really stressed. And so I've done this that well, trust me, marriage has infinitely more stress. Then you're gonna have as a single person dating.

And so you've gotta really take into consideration, you know, are you ready as well? It's not just like, okay, is she ready? Cuz if so, well then I just gotta plug that into my life and we're good to go. You've gotta look into your own life. Am I ready? What do the people who love me think about her? You know, do my parents think that she'd be an awesome spouse or do the people who care about me the most tend to point out some red flags, Hey, you know, keep an eye on this.

You know, that that could be an issue, you know? And I know this is a, this last one's kind of a tough one because it's not up to her. I mean, she, this is beyond her control, but it's almost like a bonus point. If her parents have a strong marriage, it's such a blessing. In an effect, she will have sat in a classroom of authentic love for the first 18 years of her life.

Whereas I, if she was not unfortunately raised in that environment and her parents had a broken relationship, divorce fighting, whatever, you know, it doesn't mean that she's incapable of love or incapable of a happy, wonderful. Marriage, but it's just gonna be an extra challenge in a sense for her and maybe for you as she perhaps needs to learn and develop the skills that she never had, the blessing of witnessing.

And so that can be a challenge, you know, but it's not a deal breaker by any extent. I mean, I, I was able to come thanks me to God from parents who still are married today. My wife came from, you know, a very broken family and, uh, you know, but, and she'll be the first to admit, you know, that. You know, creates an uphill struggle when you don't get to see what that interaction is supposed to look like from a husband and a wife.

So, you know, so those are some questions. What guy needs to look at. Not only is this the right girl, but is this even the right time, you know, for her, for me, because even if you find the right girl, it might not be the right time to jump into relationship. You know, maybe she's going to. UCLA next year, and you're going to Louisiana state university, and you're gonna have a long distance relationship, 4,000 miles apart for the next, you know, who knows how many years it can be pretty difficult.

And so you really gotta discern not just is this the right girl, but is this the right time? Love that I love what you said about virtue two. That being really the main goal of finding a woman who's virtuous. And I know what I've seen in marriages around me is that the more virtuous the spouse is the happier the marriage.

And so I think it's really. Secret to a happy marriage is find a virtuous spouse. Be virtuous yourself. Yeah. It's, it's not much more difficult than that. Marriage is very difficult, but if, if you can both, you know, be pursuing virtue, uh, you're far more likely to have a happy life together.

Next up is Sarah Swafford. I love Sarah. She's incredible. Uh, this is episode 20 called navigating singleness, and she shares a beautiful story about her husband who comes from a really broken home.

I think the two questions that we as human beings ask ourselves the most, we very rarely ask them out loud, but we ask them in our heads all the time and in different ways is, am I enough? And am I ever gonna be truly loved? Hmm. Like, am I enough? And am I ever gonna be truly loved? And they, they go very closely together, right?

Because, because you know, it's one of those things where if you see what you want and someone has. Like, it's so easy as a human being to look at that and then go, well, I mu like for some reason them being up on that, you know, I don't wanna say pedestal or that stair that's like right above where I wanna be, you know, whatever that is.

Like, whatever I'm looking at them, they're standing on, let's say a bench. You know what I mean? I see them standing there and because I can see them and they have what I want. Therefore I'm a notch down because I'm looking at what I want and I don't have it. Therefore, somehow. Like you just said, shame, you know, identity, you know, insecurity, doubt, fear, anger, bitterness, how many emotions can we put to that?

Right. Like, I mean, totally. I could talk for days on bitterness and, and I think that everybody out there, you know, especially you're restored community who, and again, I don't have, I wish I had a counseling degree cause I, I can't speak to this as articulately as I would like to, but like I've walked with thousand.

Of people over the last, you know, years, because I'm so close to, um, Benedictine college is I, I live across the street from 2000 college students and, and the, the thing that I just, I think I need your people, your people, I think I want your restored community to hear like very loud and clear is just that like, I really want them to shine that light.

That can be kind of hard to talk about, which is that whole idea of like, when other people have like the family that you want, or other people have the marriage that you want, or the relationship that you want or whatever. I think it's really important to look at it and say, just because that's not what you have now does not mean that that's not what's in store for you.

And I think that for a lot of single. It's really easy to take the past and project it upon the future. So you take that divorce and everything that happened as your parents were separated. You take that moment when you were bullied in seventh grade, you take that moment when you were dumped by your first boyfriend or girlfriend, you take that moment when you're standing with a group of girls and.

Some like random guys come by and like call out one girl as hot. And you are just standing there feeling super awkward, right? Like, I mean, you, you have all these experiences in life where you were not chosen or it wasn't the what, like you bring all of that to the present. And then we are so good as human beings at like throwing it on the future as well.

Like we take all of that and we just put it on the future and we go, well, this is how it's always gonna. Like, this is my, this is what's gonna happen. And, and one of the, the people that I love to raise up for this is my husband. My husband comes, uh, I don't, if your people don't know him, I, I call him SW.

His name is Dr. Andrew Swafford. We all call him doc SW, SW SW daddy PW. um, he has lots of names, but he teaches, uh, here at Benedictine and he comes from a very broken home is like extremely broken home. And, um, It's one of those things where like, his parents are married, but we're not really sure why, you know what I mean?

Like, so just think broken home, right? Think like a lot of verbal abuse, he grew up just like really doubting and questioning his worth and doubting and questioning a lot of what he wanted for his life because of how broken his, his childhood. Was, and so, you know, he fast forward into, you know, college, high school making decisions, just kinda living for the moment.

You know, it was really hard to like look forward. And I remember, um, after his conversion, um, with he actually, we, we both had our conversions through, um, at Benedictine college through focus, but also through Beth and Ted Shree, Dr. Shree and Beth. And I know that, um, you'll either know them or they, or your people do know them.

And, um, there was something really beautiful. We, we got engaged. I remember one. I found, we were like driving and all of sudden, like SW got really quiet. And I was like, what? And he's like, he just started crying. And I mean, he is a big, like six foot football player. So like, you know, I was like, whoa, the dude's crying.

Like this is an important moment. Like something's going on? And he just looked at me and he goes, I don't know. If I can do this whole marriage and, and fatherhood thing, because I don't know what it should look like, but in, and he's like, I don't know if I know what it takes and I don't know if I can do this.

And it was such a, it was this beautiful moment. Like, I just don't know what if I don't know how to do this. And it was so beautiful because, um, I don't know. It was just like in the moment I just looked at him and I go, the reason why you're gonna be an amazing father and an amazing husband is because you want it.

and you're willing to work for it. And so for all your single people out there who are feeling shame from past relationships, if you're feeling like my family's really broken, if you're feeling like I'm late to this ball game, like I'm late to this, like understanding why my life has been the way it is and it's been dark and I've made mistakes.

And like, I feel shame. I I'm gonna hold up my husband, his poster boy, because he is, he was exactly where a lot of you are, which is. Am I too far gone, like, am I have I already screwed up my kids, even though I haven't had them yet, like, am I gonna be able to be a husband like that? I wanna be, and then does anybody want me because I'm kinda a mess and like, there's gonna be baggage for sure.

And I just, I really hold up someone like SWA again, he's my example because I know him so well in, and I know his story. So intimately it's easier for me to. It's almost my story now because we're married. You know what I mean? Like I like that's how deeply I feel it. And so I just, I wanna hold that up to all to Shane, to everybody out there.

Who's like feeling that, like, what if I've never chosen? What if so, what if I'm continue to be overlooked? What if I continue to feel forgotten or dismissed or all those words? And I just really, I want you to like, bring that to like, kinda what we said with the loneliness. Like let's acknowledge. Let's acknowledge that you're feeling that way.

Let let's be real about it, right? That's good. But you can't take your whole past and throw it upon the future and be like, this is the way.

We're gonna bring Jason Everett back. This is a different episode than before number 19, how to find your soulmate without losing your soul. The other one was for the men, ladies. This one is for you so much wisdom here to help you find the love that you deserve.

You give a list of the top 10 guys to avoid. We do describe one or two of them. We can't go through through all of 'em of course. But you, would you describe a couple? Yeah. One, one, you know, one of the biggest ones is the flip Flo, you know, we're one minute, you know, you are the best things to slice bread.

The whole world revolves around you. And the next minute he's not even answering his cell phone, not picking up, not returning your text messages. And then he is kinda goes dark for a while. And then he kind of thinks he's into this other girl, maybe, but then he is back with you and he, you know, oh no, you're the one I.

And if you put your heart in the hands of a guy like that, I mean, it is a emotional rollercoaster that will take a significant toll on you. And so nobody can take you out of that situation. You have to choose to unplug yourself and be like, you know what? I don't need some indecisive flip floppy boy, because the fact is, men are simple creatures.

If we wanna be with a woman. We'll act in such a fashion. Uh, and, and so girls don't need to stay up at night creating 10,000 excuses and, you know, justifications for why he's not getting, oh, well, maybe he's really busy and you know, maybe this and maybe that it's like, no, if a guy, everyone deserves to be with someone who wants to be with them and you as a woman deserve those things.

And so you should hold out for it. And so that was one of the guys we really highlighted in there. And then the other guys, another one, just one more is the kind of the smooth. And meaning by that, he's not gonna pressure you too much to do sexual things, but he'll literally take everything that you're willing to give.

And I remember one guy came up to me after a chance that he talked at his school before I was heading over to the all girls school. And he said, do you ever tell the girls that we tell them we're okay. Not doing something sexual, just so that they'll give it to. And I said, yeah, I actually do point that out to them that there are guys out there like that who think that it's the girl's job to be the Chasity cop and he can push the envelope gently and quote unquote, respectfully.

And Hey, if she's willing to do it, I'm okay with it. If she's not willing, then I'm okay. But he's never really gonna lead that relationship in a positive direction. He's just gonna continue inch by inch to see how much he can take as much as she's willing to give. and that's not the guy you want to end up with.

You want a guy? Who's gonna realize that. Hey, guess what? Like girls have temptations too. It's not just the. and when she's tempted, he needs to be strong. Instead of every time she's tempted that both of them fall. And so you, you know, those are just two of the 10 guys that we kinda highlight in the book.

Um, but that's how we start. The book is jumping right into that whole section because you know, girls need to realize like you are not alone. In your desire to find authentic love, and you're not alone in your frustration and how difficult it's been up to this point. But if we could just weed out the wrong kind of guys to get started, you know, you're, you're definitely gonna be off the right on the foot.

Switching gears a little bit. We're gonna hear from Jen. This is episode. The title is, I thought my parents' divorce didn't affect me. And I think there's so many of us who have Jen's experience where we, we go through life and the brokenness in our family is kind of just normal. And so we don't think much about it.

We don't think maybe. Too much into how that has affected us or how it's connected to the struggles that we deal with today. Uh, but then sooner or later kind of hits us in the face and then we have to deal with it. And that's exactly what happened in Jen's life. Now, you're not gonna hear her full story to, to do that, listen to, to episode 11, but you're just gonna hear part of it where especially she kind of woke up and saw man.

So many of the things that I struggle with right now are connected to the breakdown of my family.

um, it's just funny. It's funny to like think back on it and how normal it did feel. Mm-hmm um, and I think that really, it does play into a lot, um, of my difficulties and struggles later on. Um, and we'll definitely get into that, but yeah, so essentially I had a, I lived a good life and I have a good life.

Um, and I. Grew up my entire life, believing that, you know, I went to college or I, I did well in school growing up. Like I was, you know, definitely one of the kids that, um, got good grades, didn't get in trouble. Um, those types of things, we can come back to that in a little bit, but, you know, I just, I did what I had to do.

Like I was. I was a, I was a good kid, you know, um, went to college, graduated college. I, uh, graduated with my nursing degree. So I found a, a really great job at one of the top pediatric facilities in the area. I did that for a while. I served in Honduras. I lived in Honduras. Um, I. Went to like, I lived in Florida, um, and did some other things, you know, and came back to this area for my job.

I bought a home, I bought a condo, you know, like, so from the outside very much like my parents' divorce had no bearing on my life, had no effect. On my life. And I was very proud of myself because of that, that, yes, like I'm one of those people that my divorce or my parents' divorce didn't affect me. And I believed that and I was very like proud of that, you know?

And that was kind of the. The narrative that I was taught to believe anyway, because mm-hmm, right. Because as we know, like kids are resilient and all of these things and whatnot. And I just, I was very like, proud that I see proof that I everything's good look at my life, like all these wonderful things and, and it is good.

And I did do some wonderful things, but interestingly, uh, when I was in Hondura. Um, that actually really opened up a lot for me. I describe it as a stripping away of everything. And obviously like, um, mission work, especially overseas mission work does do that in many aspects. Um, but I realized at the time, you know, being in a different culture, being in a place, I didn't know anybody and, you know, learning something completely new and all of these different.

I didn't have my normal, I didn't have my sense of normal. You know, my family wasn't around my, you know, my normal like sense of comfort. It really kind of exposed something deeper inside of me that I, at this point now had nothing to keep it together. Hm. And at the time now I can only verbalize this with many years of therapy, because at the time I, I really just thought that I was struggling with being a missionary and being in Honduras.

Like I just really thought I was like, one of those people, like, gosh, maybe this isn't the life for me. Like, I can't really cut it out. And, and all of this. In retrospect. And in hindsight, and after much healing, I realized like that was the beginning of like, this wound that I had that was, was essentially like ripped, like open and exposed.

And it just, uh, like I needed to, like, I couldn't do anything about it. It was there. And so I was in a really difficult place, like, and it was a really dark place and I knew that I had to leave, but I couldn't really verbalize it. So I actually ended up leaving. Honduras early and was like, I just need to figure it out.

I didn't know what, I, I didn't know what I was figuring out, but I knew I needed to figure something out. Cause clearly I was, I was really, really struggling.

Next up is Miranda that's episode eight, the hardest. Part of my life. And in that episode, she actually read an article that she wrote called dear divorce. And so I wanna share that with you, if you didn't hear it. It's excellent. And in the rest of the episode, of course, we kind of dive into her story and into the article that she wrote, but this article is really powerful.

It really articulates well, uh, the struggles that she dealt with. When her parents got divorced and it speaks to so on so many levels to a lot of the things that we struggle with, uh, as children of divorce, as people whose parents are separated or divorced.

Dear divorce, thanks to you. I learned nothing on earth lasts as long as it should. Dear divorce, you spread the heinous lie. That happiness is on the other side of leaving. That is the only. You convince them that children are resilient after all. We want you to be happy. Dear divorce. You taught me to trust no one, not even those who say I love you.

Not even myself. Dear divorce. You showed me how my world can come crashing down on me at any moment. So don't get too comfortable. Dear divorce, you made nights slow torture. As I tried to manage the pain in the darkness alone, stop crying, stop crying, stop crying. Dear divorce. You taught me to isolate myself to keep my distance.

To remain unattached to fear instead of love. Dear divorce, you made me desperate for attention, but wary of affection, you convinced me to clinging instead of trust, because they will leave. They will. Dear divorce. You cause guilt to follow me every day of my life. Guilt. That envelopes me though. It wasn't my fault.

It wasn't my fault. It wasn't my fault. It wasn't my fault. Dear divorce, you made closeness. Feel impossible. Love seem unattainable. Dear divorce. You made me feel unlovable that I am not worthy and never good enough. You told me that something is wrong with me. It must be dear divorce. You filled me with rage, but gave me no way to express it.

You told me to shove it down deep, deep. I'm angry. I'm angry. I'm angry. Dear divorce. You left me with the heart of a broken child, a heart two week to love. Two hurt to be held. It hurts. Dear divorce, you stole my Haven. My comfort, my security. You just took. You bastard, dear divorce. You'll never know what it's like to make a vow to someone and keep it until you die.

You'll never grow old with the person you promise till death do is part you'll never experience the unconditional love from one person all of your days. You'll never know what it's like to come home to the same people. The same person year after year, dear divorce. You'll never know what they mean. The words, love and family and stay dear divorce.

You will miss out on countless moments, hugs and kisses, tears, and breakthroughs, frights and grief, forgiveness, and reconciliations first. And. You lost them and you will never get them back. The ghost of memories will haunt you until your lonely death. What could have been, you will never know what could have been.

What was on the other side of staying the forgiveness, the grace, the love. I pity you. Dear divorce. You thought you had me, you believed I would buy into the Treacher lies, but I won't. You have led many others astray lured them with your sirens call, but not me. I will never be yours. I have seen too much.

The charm of freedom is only loneliness. The happiness you promise is empty. A black hole of egotistical wishes. I know the suffering. I know the fallout. I know the pain. I know I will never choose. Not as long as I live, you are dark, sad and alone. I pity you. Dear divorce. Thanks to you. I know that I will never be yours,

such a moving article. As soon as I read that, I knew that I wanted to have Miranda. On the podcast and, uh, throughout this year Miranda and I have gotten to know each other more and I've been so impressed with her content and with her as a person that we actually brought her on board. She's now one of our team members at restored, she's our director of content and what we're just thrilled to have her.

And we're growing at restored because we have to fill this need this huge problem. Cuz the truth is as many of you know that there are millions of people like Miranda. There are millions of people like Jen. In fact, the us census data shows that each year over 1 million American children go through their parents' divorce.

Now, if you think of the 1990s alone, that's 10 million children, right within that 10 year span, that's the size of Sweden to say, this is a big problem is such an understatement. And what's baffled me is why are there so few resources for people like us, people from broken families. I can't say I have the answer to that question.

It really does baffle me, but I can tell you that restored is doing something about it. We wanna build those resources. We wanna meet the needs of young people who come from broken homes. That's really the reason that I started restored. And our vision at ReSTOR is to reverse the cycle of divorce by helping teenagers and young adults to heal and build virtue.

The sad truth is that children of divorce are much more likely to get divorced themselves, thereby repeating the cycle and passing the brokenness onto future generations. And what they really need is healing and building virtue. And if they heal and build virtue, there'll be strong virtuous individuals and strong virtuous individual.

They make great marriages and marriage of course, is the foundation of the family. So if we have great marriages, we have strong families. If we have strong families, we'll really heal our world, heal our culture, transform our world. And that's what we're all about. How are we gonna do that? By giving teenagers and young adults, the practical guidance and the support that they need to heal and grow through our content.

Like this podcast talks that I give books, our blogs. So on coaching, our network of trusted counselors and spiritual directors and community, our private online community, where young people can speak freely about the, the struggles that they have, the pain and the problems in their life, and also be challenged to grow and to, to better stronger people.

Now. Barely scratch the surface. There's so much more that we wanna do, but honestly, a lot of it's already working and it's, it's really encouraging to see that. In fact, uh, I wanna share what Eric said about resort. He's a man in his twenties and he personally knows the impact divorce and family trauma has.

On people. Here's what he said. He said, I absolutely love the podcast. It seriously feels like it's a life hack listening to it. It helps so much. What you're doing here is very important and meaningful. I haven't seen any other attempts to support people who suffer from their parents' divorce. And even if there are other attempts out there, yours is likely far.

I am not particularly religious though. That doesn't mean I'm not open minded. It's more of a habit developed from years of being angry at whatever divine being is out there. This podcast and everything you're doing is extremely helpful to anyone religious or not. Who is struggling with their broken family.

He goes on to say, I hope you make a thousand more episodes on your podcast because that's what really made me realize that all the weird stuff I've been through, isn't abnormal for someone in our position, which is beyond healing, keep doing what you're doing. You really are making a significant, positive impact on people's lives.

Eric. Thank you so much for the kind words. It makes me so happy to read that you are the reason that restored exists. It was built for people like you, people like me. And so it's awesome to see that it's working to help people who come from broken families. Not like I said, we have so many plans for the future about how we wanna help young people.

Like Eric. And even though we have a, a small team and a very limited budget, we've actually worked really hard this year to serve young people from broken families. We've produced 27 podcast episodes. With 13,000 downloads. We built a, a studio for podcasts and video production. We began publishing our first.

Book, which I'm really excited about. I'll tell you more about that in future episodes. Uh, we grew our coaching wait list to 45 people. Again, the coaching network, which we're building is a network of counselors and spiritual directors that we trust that we recommend that we vet for you guys. Our online community grew as well.

We hired four team members. I mentioned, uh, Miranda. We hired three other team members as well. I delivered multiple talks, honored to speak at different universities, different online event. It was awesome. I had the opportunity to participated in an expert round table with two counselors on how parents can help their kids through their divorce.

And so there's all that, and there's much more that I won't get into, but like I said, we've only scratched the surface. We have so much planned ahead. And if you wanna hear about our 2020 plans, uh, go ahead and subscribe to our email list at restored ministry. Dot com people often email me and they say, I love what you're doing.

How can I help? Here's how you can help. I want to ask you, would you invest in restored with a small monthly donation? And I'll be honest with you. I hate asking for money, but I believe so deeply in this mission. And no, as a businessman, I know that to sustain and grow this vital mission, we need partners like you.

And since most people can't give a hundred dollars a month or even $50 a month, we're just asking for 25. Dollars a month. And I know not just, I know it's a big sacrifice for a lot of people, but, but if you would make that gift, it would make such a difference. Monthly gifts are so essential to helping us know how to plan for the future.

Making sure we can cover our expenses. We compare our team members and so on. So those monthly gifts are, are such a gift to us. And if you wanna do that, if you wanna support restored, you can go to restored ministry.com. Donate again, that's restored ministry ministries to singular.com/donate on the page.

It's really simple. You choose your frequency, choose the amount you want to give, enter some other info. Then you submit the form and that's gonna help us to grow restored and reach. More young people who come from broken families. Now you may be thinking, well, what if I need to cancel or pause it? You can really easily do that.

You can pause. You can cancel, you can resume your monthly gift. Anytime. Once you submit that monthly gift, an account's gonna automatically be created for you. We have awesome, awesome software, uh, friend of mine who actually works in Silicon valley. He recommended this software. Top notch is really great.

It's very secure. So know that, um, you know, everything, you're gonna get your tax documents. You're gonna get a receipt, all that good stuff. And as an IRS, uh, approved nonprofit a 5 0 1 C three, your donation is fully tax deductible as well would be extremely honored for you to come alongside this mission to, to fund it so we can reach more people who come from broken families.

And the truth is. Young people from broken homes have been neglected long enough. It isn't right. And so restored is fixing that. And speaking about restored, uh, Graciela said it perfectly. She said, I wish I had resources like this. When I was growing up, we wanna be that resource. We don't want people to grow up and look back and say, man, I lost so much in my life.

I suffered in this way and that way, and I felt alone. I didn't know how to handle it all. We wanna help people to heal to grow so they can feel whole again and become, you know, who they were created to be, to live their best life. While those monthly donations help a ton. If you can only make a, a special gift often called a, a one time gift.

We appreciate that so much. And if you'd like to make a large. Special gift. I'd love to talk with you. And so you can email me. You can contact me@joeyrestoredministry.com. Again, that's Joey restored ministry.com. I'd love to hear from you. I'd love to tell you a little bit more about our plans for the future.

So please donate today. If you can do that monthly gift, especially, or maybe a one time special gift@restoredministry.com slash Don. All right back to the content. So next up we have Dr. Julia Sadusky, she's our doctor in psychology. And this episode is number 13. Why we repeat our parents' mistakes and how to avoid it?

This one, I love this episode. I think it's one of our most underrated episodes. It's so good. We, we get into the psychology of why we often do the things that we despise in other people. And so, so much good stuff. In this episode, we're obviously only gonna play you a clip, but I really encourage you to go back and listen to episode 13, by the way, we recorded this at a restaurant at a happy hour in Denver.

This is before COVID all the lockdowns. And so you may need to turn up your volume a little bit because there's some background noise.

I'd like to walk through a concrete example, just taking what we've talked about and applying it to a scenario that, uh, may be familiar to some people mm-hmm and let's say, let's say there's a boy whose dad cheated on his mom. Mm-hmm okay. And then he. he doesn't want to repeat that. Yeah. He kind of despises that, that hurt him too.

Yeah. Because, you know, as we know when there's an affair in a family, whether it's a mom or a dad, they're not just cheating on the spouse, but on the kids as well. And so like the boys hurt and then later in life for the reasons we've discussed and maybe others that can't really be understood. Mm-hmm . He ends up cheating on his wife.

Right? Why what's going on there? What is he looking for in the midst of that? Talk us through talk us through that. Yeah. Well, I think, I think, you know, we've talked about that fantasy piece. I mean, part of it is that there will be a different ending that could mean, you know, I have this affair and it doesn't have the negative impact it had on me.

Part of it is I'm gonna test myself. I'm gonna put myself in those situations and hope that I'm stronger in the ways that my parent wants it. And so part of it's that not really appreciating that this does not discriminate. And I think part of it is that kind of desire to be. And the fear of what it would mean to acknowledge that dad made mistakes, the anger that flows from that, the regret that flows from that, the resentment that inevitably comes that ill equips.

We don't know what to do with. So I think that's what makes the healing process. Food is so essential is that none of us are exempt from this. You know, those of us who are, who have experienced divorce in our families, we know that in 99% of cases, people don't stand at that alter and lie. Yeah. You know, they commit to something willfully and they break that out.

and so being able to appreciate nobody is exempt and being able to talk about the challenges they're in and being able to talk about the moments that put you at great risk and being able to plan for them. and to invest in a relationship lifelong, that will not be what an affair offers are important because the forbidden fruit is desirable, but it's not meaningful.

Mm-hmm and it leaves us one thing. Yeah. So we have to play that tape through.

Episode 15 is next. This is called calm is contagious. It's with retired Navy seal Mike sore. Mike's an incredible man. I've had the honor of getting to know him. Uh, he just talks about how the Navy seals remain calm in chaotic situations. There's some lessons in here, especially for any of you out there who lead someone.

It probably leads someone in some capacity. And so some really good lessons about sing calm. In chaos, which honestly can often just be the environment within our families.

I, if you go back to the actual assessment and selection for special operations, which is, you know, what our version of the hiring process, it actually screens exactly for what, what, what you're describing is people that are, uh, have the ability to remain calm when push to their thresholds, to push to their, uh, their limits, special operations thrives in what we call a VUCA environment.

And what VUCA stands for is volatility. Uncertainty complexity and ambiguity, and it takes a unique individual to remain calm when in that environment. And, and quite frankly, uh, during global war terror, our special operators were, were thrust into those, uh, environments deployment after deployment, after deployment.

And so we look for a very unique individual that can remain calm. As you've often heard, you know, JCA willin in lay Babin, the co-authors of extreme ownership. Talk about an ineffective leader versus an effective leader. An ineffective leader is the one that loses their composure. During chaotic times.

And when the person you're following, uh, becomes chaotic, you tend to match, uh, their sort of temperament, nothing gets solved. Things, get worse with, uh, effective leaders on a battlefield. And what I've seen is those ones that remain calm. It's almost like a disease in itself. We, we have a phrase in the, in special operations community, calm is contagious.

And if you, as a leader, in a position of authority are calm, your people will remain calm as well.

OnDeck is episode 22. I love this episode because it's short. It's so practical. It's an exercise that you can do for healing. And I get into a little bit, I don't say how to do it in this clip, but if you wanna listen to the episode it's episode 22, again, it's really short. And it's an incredibly effective exercise.

Uh, like you'll hear me say, brought me to tears. And I was talking to someone else, uh, friend of mine in the Denver area who listens to the podcast. And he was saying that it made him cry too. And both of us are pretty manly dudes. We're not crying a lot. And so, uh, it's a very effective exercise and I hope that, uh, yeah, you'll listen to episode 22 and do the exercise as.

If you could go back in time and have a conversation with a little version of you, what would you say? Something that's really common for people whose parents are separated or divorced is that nobody really asks us about how we feel. Nobody really asks us how it all affected us. And nobody really cares for.

In that way. And I think of Erin in episode 16, she shared her story about, you know, all of her friends, her family, and even her teachers knew about her parents' separation, but everyone kind of acted like it wasn't a big deal. Everyone acted like it was normal, even though she was really hurting because of it.

And so it made her feel like something was wrong with her. And that is so common. And the result often is that we just bottle those feelings up inside. We just keep them hidden. We have no outlet for them, even though we're dying to be heard, to be seen for someone to just validate our pain and listen to us.

Now, of course you can't go back in time, but what if I told you, there's a way for you to kind of talk with. The little version of you to have a self dialogue with that younger version of yourself. And I'm not talking about some bizarre self-help crystals thing. No, there's lots of weird stuff out there.

We don't condone any of that. I'm just talking about a simple, psychological exercise that I learned from a counselor that I know that'll help. You kind of have an imaginary dialogue with that little version of yourself. And I know some of you may be thinking, oh, that's not like me. I don't do stuff like that, but please give this a shot, give it a shot.

I did it. And it made me cry and I'm not someone who really cries easily. It was just so helpful. And it just got to the core of so many of my wounds over the years. Now, if you do it, I think you'll find that it's surprisingly healing. That'll bring a lot of relief because you're giving the little, you a chance to speak out in a way that maybe you were never even able to do.

And it may even open parts of your heart that you just had closed off for years even. And you might even find that this exercise calms some of those really intense emotion. That you feel like anger because those difficult emotions that we deal with are intimately connected to the wounds that we sustained over the years.

And really the best part of the exercise is that it's simple to do. It's not complicated and it doesn't take long at all. It could be as simple as 20 minutes or as long as you really want it.

Next up is episode 32, how to navigate the holiday. Advice from 11 children, no divorce. So basically through social and email, we asked our audience to submit their advice. Like what, what's one tip that you would give to young people who are going through the holidays with their broken family who are trying to navigate the holidays.

If they come from a divorce or separated family. And so we got responses and we put them in an episode, I'm just gonna share. One clip with you. Um, this is from Elise. Elise is I think, 16 years old. She's in our restored online community and she's just awesome. She is young, but she is wise beyond her years, as you're about to hear right now.

Hi, I'm Elise from Portland, Oregon. And I like to start this off by saying that, especially during the holiday season, it's so easy to look at other families and wish that your family was like theirs or wish that your whole family was under the same roof. and a good example of the sugar coated family is a Macy's holiday commercial.

You know, it's all smiles and color coordinating clothes, and it all seems too perfect. Right? Well, it's sugar coated and it's not real. what is real and what's genuine is what you've gone through. you've gone through a lot and it's hard. It's, it's not easy at all. Anyone that tries to tries to normalize divorce and to this easy thing, it's not.

And thinking about those sugarcoated families, it's really easy to ask yourself, what am I missing instead of asking what you're missing? What have you gained? I. We've all gained experience from this and lessons and things. We we'd wanna teach our future kids someday or something that will at least make our marriages a little easier.

Now that we've gone through this, we've gone through lots of experience and life lessons and things that have changed our perspective of the world. And, you know, sometimes that can be negative or positive. and during the holiday season, it's really easy to be sad or wish that certain people were there with you and wonder things.

But instead of doing that, try to be thankful for who is there for you. Try to be thankful for those who stick around. I mean, we've all, we all have someone, whether it's still your mom or your dad or a sibling. Or, you know, a pet . I mean, it's the little things and yeah, it's cliche to say that, but it's true.

It is the little things in life are so important and your family is a huge, huge thing. And it's, it's a hard thing to have to see your family break apart, but you are not breaking apart. You're learning things and you're going through new things and it's hard. Trust me, but. It's so important to not stray away from the fact that you're still loved.

There are so many reasons to be thankful. Think about the food you're going to eat during the holidays that is fun or gifts you get to give, or you receive little things like that. And. Try to focus on the people that are still there for you. And don't aim for a Macy's holiday commercial family. I mean, hopefully you guys know what I mean.

If you look up the commercials, you probably know, um, don't ask yourself, what am I missing? Think about what you have gained, what you have learned through all of this. So that next holiday season will, will be even better. Life's not perfect. Life. Isn't sugar coated. These are all genuine experiences you've gone through.

And instead of dwelling in it and being sad and wishing your family was something different, try to learn about and try to wonder what you've gained, because that is very important and just be thankful for what you still have. And the fact that you're still here sees are said, and. um, by promise it makes a difference.

So, uh, thank you for having me or listening. um, Yeah, I hope this comes in handy for anyone. And I really do hope that this holiday season is better or easy. And if it's not, I'm here for you in any way. And yeah.

Last up is episode 14 with again, Dr. Julia Sadusky. We talk about how to handle fear and anxiety, and I love this conversation. There's a lot of practical things that you can do. Uh, we're just gonna give you one of those practical things in this clip, but there's a lot more goodness, in this episode, if you wanna listen to episode 14.

One of the things that helped me years ago, I went through, you know, some pretty intense anxiety periods of anxiety. And one of the things that helped me, I don't know how clinical this is, but, uh, was just actually touching things around me, like a table, a chair. Mm-hmm something like that. Yes. For some, in some way it helped ground me in the present moment.

Instead of letting my mind just run off into. You know, whatever I was worried about. Absolutely. Yes. What you're speaking about is they're called grounding exercises. Whoever made up that name, nice. Uh, pretty creative, but, but yeah, just the idea, you know, one of the ways you do grounding is just what you described, you know, touching things, especially things that activate your senses.

So maybe it's touching soft things and then hard things. Uh, there's a, a quick tip of called five senses where we just describe what are five things that I. What are four things that I hear? What are three things I can touch? What are two things I can taste? And one thing I can smell. Hmm. And what you can do is you can, you know, grab different things to help with that.

You can light a sense of candle or smell. You can rub some lotion on, you can taste something sweet or something tart or sour. Um, there's lots of different ways to do that. Even splashing cold water on our face. I mean, anything that we can do to get us tapped into the present moment is gonna be really, really effective.

Um, and again, what, what you wanna do with that is not just do it, but actually. Immerse yourself in it, through describing what you're thinking about, what you're feeling in that moment. So if I'm feeling something soft, I'm gonna my head, describe the texture, describe the color. Um, and all of that, again, is what's activating that prefrontal cortex, which is so important.

Bring us to the moment. Actually,

that's a wrap. What a year, everyone I talk to is so ready for this. To be over. And so from all of us at restored, from my team at restored, just wanna wish you the best, wish you a Merry Christmas, happy new year, happy any other holidays you may celebrate. We really appreciate you listening to the podcast.

We appreciate your support, uh, for not only this podcast, but also for our ministry. So many of you have shared the podcast with others and we can't thank you enough for that. We really wanna help more people. And so you sharing with people that you know, who could use. Really helps a ton, by the way, I mentioned at the start of the show, uh, this is a great episode to share with new people who maybe aren't familiar with restored.

This really gives them a good sample of our content. Hopefully we can help 'em, uh, in other ways as well. And they'll become a listener. Like I mentioned, if you want more of this content, we'd love your support. We'd love for you to become a partner with restored in helping young people who come from broken homes, helping them heal and grow sick and feel whole again, and thrive in every area of their lives.

And so I invite you to support us financially to make a, a monthly donation, whatever you can do. We're asking for $25 a month, if you can do more great, if you can only do less, that's totally fine. We really just appreciate your support. And we wanna be able to, again, serve more young people who come from broken homes and you can donate by going to restored ministry.com/donate and restored ministry ministries to singular.

Dot com slash donate. You'll just choose the frequency of your gift, the amount, and then enter some other info. Once you do that, you'll submit it. And that will help us to not only sustain, but also to grow restored. All the resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 34. Again, restored ministry.com/three four.

We'll have a list of all the episodes that we featured in this show today. So if you wanna listen to the full episode, you can do that@restoredministry.com slash 34. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you are born.

#033: Does Divorce Damage Children? 67 Studies Answer

Is divorce damaging for the children? There’s a lot of misinformation around that question.

In this episode, we dispel the myths by breaking down a study. That study summarizes the results of 67 studies about children of divorce. Don’t worry, we make it simple. By listening, you’ll hear:

• The insane number of children of divorce in the world (hint: It is mindblowing)

• Statistics and talking points to use in conversations about divorce

• Understand the negative effects that most children of divorce suffer

Donate to Restored

1. Go here

2. Choose a frequency and amount

3. Fill out personal and payment info, then submit

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

Links & Resources

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Study: Children of divorce in the 1990s: An update of the Amato and Keith (1991) meta-analysis.

• Professor Paul Amato

• 1/3 high conflict divorces, 2/3 low conflict divorces

• The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce by Dr. Judith Wallerstein

• Country population data

• US Census Data

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

So I'm on Instagram. And I see this post that basically says that divorce is not damaging for the children, which is actually quite a popular belief. And so I felt the need to, to speak up, to say something. And this was posted by someone who calls himself, basically a divorce coach, someone who, who helps people who are going through a divorce, kind of get through it.

They coach 'em, they, they mentor them. And I'm not gonna say the name of the account because I want to protect their privacy, but they have 4,000 followers. And so they're reaching a lot of people. And so I felt the need to speak up. So before I let you know what I said, I wanna tell you what they said.

They said, we need to bust the myth that kids are damaged by divorce. It's just not true. And it's also kind of harmful to the kids who come from divorce homes. I know it seems hard to imagine tearing your kids world apart, but I promise you, kids of divorce are not less or lacking in any way. I know because my kid is one and she's awesome.

Honest. So I commented. And in my comment, I tried to be very diplomatic and kind, uh, you know, sharing the truth with love. And here's what I said. I said, totally respect your opinion. And I agree that children can thrive if parents love them through it. That's huge. Glad you're bringing attention to that without judging your situation at all.

I have to say that my parents' divorce damaged me and I work with young people who say the. All the time, but they're afraid to speak up because they care about their parents and don't wanna hurt them. Their words. I know that was my experience too. I love my parents and never want to hurt them. Turning to science.

The research shows the issue is more nuance. There are absolutely cases. Where separation and even divorce are necessary. Abuse, violence, threat of death, et cetera. But statistically, the majority of divorces are not like that. And to say divorce is not damaging to children flies in the face of the scientific evidence we've seen.

And the stories we've heard. Check out research from Paul Lamato from Penn state and Dr. Judith Wallerstein from UC. Be. I say this, not to judge or shame parents who've been divorced, but to bring attention to a huge group of people that have been insanely neglect. You can't heal a patient until you first understand the wound are kids screwed, no coping healing and even thriving are absolutely possible.

In fact, parents play a huge role in helping us heal and feel loved. So it's important. They understand us, which is the purpose of this comment. Thanks for hearing me out, trying to give people like me a voice, increased understanding and build stronger relationships between children. And parents wish you all the best.

And so protecting the identity of the person who, who posted that. Uh, I shared that on resort's Instagram story and a friend of mine, uh, and I had a little bit of a discussion about it. She said that her parents' marriage was just so talked in such an extreme situation that the marriage itself, not just the divorce was damaging to her, which I totally agree with.

And, uh, I know her family's story. It was. Such a horrible, bad high conflict situation. And so I made this clarification in our Instagram story. I said, uh, PS, thanks to a wise friend who made an excellent point that led to the clarification below the divorce is not a random isolated event that came out of nowhere and went off like an Adam bomb.

It's typically the final blow in a long chain of events that have been building up for years. I know that was true in my parents' case. Another way to put it. The divorce itself is certainly traumatic, especially when it comes out of the blue and low conflict marriages. In fact, the research suggests that's when the divorce itself is most traumatic, but in cases of high conflict marriages where there's abuse, violence, UN repented, uh, infidelity, et cetera, what's usually most traumatic is everything that.

To it, in that case, the separation or divorce is a necessary evil. Now the ideal is to heal the marriage, fix the reasons for the divorce of the separation, reunite the spouses, bring the family, the children back together, but often people don't change and that's not possible sadly like the amputation of an.

Divorce is never a good thing in itself, but sometimes a necessary thing because it's the better of two bad options. And so if you've heard me talk about this before, uh, you, you know, our stance on this, uh, I will talk about a little bit more in this episode, but I just wanna clarify that, you know, sometimes it is necessary for parents to separate.

Sometimes that's the path to healing the marriage. Uh, in extreme cases, it's even necessary for them to get a divorce, but typically. Most marriages can work through it. And as a culture, we're encouraging people to get divorce, basically as the first solution to problems in marriage. And I know there's situations again, where things are just really horrible.

There's abuse, there's violence, there's things like that, where the spouses and the children need to get away. And we're not talking about those situations, but in cases where, uh, the parents, the spouses could work, it. But they choose not to, or maybe one chooses not to when the other one does want to. So again, we'll be creating more content around this.

You've heard me talk about it before, and I'll talk about it a little bit more in this episode, but just wanted to clarify that so that Instagram post made me think that man, there's so much misunderstanding around this issue. So we wanted to dive into some of the research, some of the scientific research.

On the impact that divorce has on the children. And so in this episode, we're gonna break down just a single study that actually summarizes the findings of 67. Different studies on children of divorce. And so by listening to this episode, you're gonna get a quick review of that study. You're not gonna have to buy it.

You're not gonna have to read it. Uh, we'll save you guys time. We'll just give you the highlights of the study and we'll make it simple to understand because. Honestly, reading these, uh, psychological studies reading this research can be kind of, uh, time consuming and confusing at times, but, uh, we're gonna make it easy to understand.

We're gonna put it into plain English as much as possible. We'll also give you some statistics that you can use in conversations, some talking points, uh, that you can share with people who maybe aren't aware, uh, of the impact that divorce has on the children. And just a huge benefit to, to everyone listening.

And really the reason why we wanted to do this is that we wanna make people aware. Children have divorced as a whole have been hugely neglected. They've dealt with the negative effects of their parents' divorce separation, often alone, often in silence. And so the first part of the solution there's a lot that needs to be done, but the first part of the solution is awareness, both for them and the world at large.

And so that's what this episode is about. So keep listening.

Welcome to the Restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce or separation. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host. Joey Pontarelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 33. And before we get into the main content, I just wanna give a quick shout out to someone who left a review on apple podcast for the show.

They didn't put their name. It's just anonymous. And they said this, they said been looking for a podcast like this. Finally found one that has helped me more than you'll ever know. Thank. I love that. Thank you so much for whoever you are anonymous for leaving that comment. Thank you for listening to the show.

I'm so glad that it's been helpful. Restore exists for you. Restore exists for you. It, it has since the beginning and it always will and everything we do, we wanna help you cope. We wanna help you heal. We wanna help you grow from the trauma that you've been through. In your family, so you can just live life to the fullest so you can thrive that you can feel whole again.

And so thank you so much for listening. Thank you for leaving, uh, that review so that we know how we're doing. And I wanted to ask you, would you leave us a review as well? If you listen on apple podcast, it's really, uh, easy to do. And some of the benefits, one, it helps us know how we're doing. To serve you guys, but it also gives us more visibility on apple podcasts so we can reach more people so we can help more young people.

And like I said, it's really easy to do. It's just three steps. So open up the apple podcast app and just find the restored podcast. The, the full name of the podcast is restored helping children of divorce. And you may already be, uh, in apple podcasts now. So obviously really easy to find, and then just scroll down to ratings and reviews.

Now in that section, there's two ways to rate the show. One is through a star rating where you just tap to rate you click on, uh, the stars that the second type is click to write a review. So that's what really helps us when people write an actual review, not just do the star ratings. So that it doesn't need to be long.

It really can take 60 to 90 seconds to do this. Uh, but we'd really, really appreciate that. The feedback we appreciate to know how we're doing to serve you. And if you need like a, a question to respond to in your review, uh, you can answer this. How has this show helped you? How has this show helped you?

And so we really appreciate it. Please leave a review for us today. All right. Now let's dive into this study. So the name of this study is called children of divorce in the 1990s, an update of the Amato Keith 1991, meta analysis. Now, if you're not familiar with a meta-analysis study, basically it means when researchers, instead of conducting their own studies, their own research on participants, they just summarize the findings of other studies that have already been conducted.

So it's kinda like a summary study bringing everything together. And in this particular study, Paloma looked at 67 studies from the. Nineties about children of divorce. And what they did basically was they compared two groups. The first group was children with continuously married parents. The parents have never been divorced.

The second group was children with divorced parents. And what they found just to give you a little preview is that children with divorce parents continue to score significantly lower on measures in five areas, one academic achievement, two conduct. Three psychological adjustment. Four self-concept. Five social relations, and I'm gonna get into each of those.

I'll explain what they mean and what they were measuring. And so on in the show, now, this study was published in the journal of family psychology in 2001, and it was published by professor Paul Lamato from Penn state university. He's a sociologist, a, a professor and a researcher and fun fact. Actually, my wife went to Penn state university.

So he, uh, I believe he's still teaching there. He's still researching there and he's really an authority. On the research about children of divorce. He's an authority on this topic and, uh, he's well respected in the academic world. In fact, one of his, uh, studies has been quoted more than 250 times in scientific papers, specifically a study about children of divorce.

So diving into the, the research, the first thing he starts with is he says, why should we be studying this in the first place? And he says that interest in the effects of divorce on children. Remains strong among researchers, practitioners, policy makers, and the general public. And by practitioners, he basically means counselors, therapists, people who help children from broken homes.

Now why so much interest basically because the high divorce rate, according to another study published in 2000, the divorce rate for first marriages that started in the 1990s was 40 to 50%. It's really difficult by the way, to, to get a precise measurement. Of the divorce rate, but F 40 to 50% is what they said.

So basically one out of every two marriages ended in divorce that started in the 1990s. It's obviously insane and really sad. Another reason to, to study this topic is just the sheer number, the gigantic number of the children that have been affected. Get this during the 1990s, over 1 million us children.

Went through their parents' divorce every year, every year in the 1990s, over a million children went through their parents' divorce and that's according to the us census data. Now, if you add that up in the nineties alone, that's 10 million children. Again, that's just in the us. Just in the 1990s to put that all into context and really understand the magnitude of it, imagine that all those children were placed in a country by themselves.

The population of that country would be the same size as Sweden, Portugal and the Dominican Republic. They all have about 10 million people. According to, to recent data that country with all the children of divorce from the 1990s would actually be larger than Austria, Switzerland in. All those countries have about eight to 9 million people.

And that country with children of divorce would be double the size of Singapore, Denmark, Norway, Costa R. And Ireland, each of those countries has about 5 million people. Another way to understand it for you, Americans listening. Uh, if all those children were placed within a state by themselves with no one else, the population would match Georgia, uh, or North Carolina.

And that state would be twice the size of Colorado. In Minnesota. And again, that's only in the us that doesn't factor in Europe, Asia, uh, India, Africa, Australia, anywhere else in the world. It's just the us. And that's only from 1990 to 1999, not before, not after. And so if we factor all those other children in, we're talking tens of millions to hundreds of millions of children, who've been through.

Their parents' worst. Isn't that crazy? There's just so many of us out there. Now, what they set out to do with this study was actually to update a previous study that was published in 1991, a meta-analysis from 1991, uh, with a focus on the studies that were published in the 1990. So basically they were saying, uh, we wanna look at the studies that are published in the 1990s to see how children of divorce were affected.

By their parents' divorce and they wanted to compare it to, uh, research that they had done on decades in the past. Now, one thing I wanted to say going into this is that, uh, these studies are looking at averages typically, especially these quantitative studies where they're more based on numbers. They don't go as much into detail about.

What happened or why it happened. And so, uh, averages are helpful. They give a good general understanding of a topic, but they're definitely limited, right? It doesn't factor in the outliers. People who maybe are doing better are doing much worse than the average. It really just shows that. If someone goes through their parents' divorce, this is typically what happens, but it obviously doesn't show the individual experience of each child.

It just, again, shows what's most likely to happen. And there certainly is a lot of variation between people who come from broken homes. Some people do much better. Some people do much worse, but on average, that's what this study is looking at now. Now setting out, they thought that there's a few possibilities.

One possibility they said was maybe. We'll see a decline in the negative effects as compared to previous years, previous decades. And one of the supporting ideas for this was that, uh, in a quote, as marital disillusion has become more common people's attitudes toward divorce have become more accepting.

Consequently children with divorced parents may feel less stigmatized. Than in earlier decades, moreover therapeutic interventions for children of divorce have become common during the last two decades. And by interventions, they mean school programs, um, parental courses, uh, that were widely available sometimes even required in certain states and counties.

However, it, it is really not clear and they even say this in the study, if those programs directly benefit the children, uh, but they said that the parents do view them favor. Legally also, there was more mediation that occurred less trial where there, you know, there was intense arguments between the parents and fighting for children and rights and property and things like that.

Mediation, uh, became much more common. Uh, they say which typically results in better compliance. They say by parents with agreements, more parental satisfaction. And less conflict and more cooperating in co-parenting following the separation. And so they, they basically say that all of that may have lowered the amount of stress that children experienced following their parents separation.

And if that's true, again, this is just one of the possibilities that they entertained. Then the gap in wellbeing between children with divorced and continually married parents is likely to have declined. During the last decade. So basically they're saying it should be similar kids with divorce and continually married parents, uh, should be pretty much the same if, if that were the case.

Another possibility that they entertained is that maybe things got worse for children of divorce. Maybe the negative effects, uh, were actually worse and then put a further gap between them and kids who came from intact homes. Professor Mato said recent longitudinal research. Indicates that the effects of divorce on children vary with the level of discord between parents prior to marital disruption.

Before I go on, just wanna explain what longitudinal research means. It's basically a, a study design that involves repeated observations. Of the same people over some period of time, either short or long. So instead of sampling and picking different people, they follow essentially the same people over some period of time.

Professor Mato goes on. He says on one hand when marital conflict is overt, intense, chronic and unresolved children appear to be better off in the long run. If the marriage ends, then if parents remain together, So basically if things are really, really bad at home, like there's abuse, there's violence, there's a threat of death.

Like all that really, really bad stuff. Then the children are gonna be better if the parents aren't together anymore, or of course resolve that situation. He goes on. On the other hand, when parents engage in relatively little overt conflict, children appear to be worse. Following the divorce. So this is a really, really important point that when divorce comes kind of out of the blue or things seem fine to the kids and there's a divorce, it's actually, it can be more damaging.

We're gonna get into what the research says about it. And that was definitely the case with my parents' marriage. There were some real problems there and they had been there for years, but to us kids, they. Didn't seem like a big deal. Uh, we, we didn't have a lot of insight into the issues and really didn't seem like there were many problems in my parents' marriage.

Now, again, they were hidden and they were there, but eventually it just exploded and then they just separated and there's this big dramatic thing that happened that really left a mark on me and my siblings. And so I can say that, especially with the people we've worked with through restored, that, that this is absolutely true.

They go on under these circumstances. Children are likely to view parental separation as an unexpected and inexplicable event that sets into motion, a series of stressful transitions, such as, you know, decline and household income. They, they quote a few other things like losing contact with one parent or maybe moving to a new neighborhood.

Uh, Tons of other examples too, but those are just some that they mention with few or no compensating advantages. Basically there's a lot of bad things that happen and just not a lot of good things that happen. I, in those cases where, uh, there's not much conflict where it's a low conflict situation, even if there are real problems within the marriage, they, they also explain how in the past.

Divorce was more difficult and expensive. So if you wanted to get divorced, you had to go through this maybe lengthy process and it was real expensive and just difficult. Not that it's not expensive. Now, trust me. It is very expensive, but, but you needed to prove that there was a legit reason to get divorced.

And most people as a culture, we, we just didn't believe in divorce. Right? People got divorced of course, but it wasn't as widespread. It wasn't as accepted. It wasn't as supported as it is today. And so the result and in that environment, not saying it was a perfect environment, but, but in that environment, only the most troubled in the most dysfunctional marriages were likely to, to end and divorced.

But, but again, that's changed. It's very different today. And professor Mato says to the extent. That it removed children from a hostile home environ. Many of these divorces, would've benefited children in the long run, but with the introduction of no fault divorce, I'll explain what that means. In a second, the softening of public attitudes toward divorce and the dramatic growth in the number of divorcing couples.

It is likely that the threshold. Of marital unhappiness necessary to trigger a divorce has declined. Okay. So there's a lot there, but when it comes to no fault divorce, a no fault divorce is basically a, a type of divorce where one spouse can file for divorce or both, but they don't have to prove any wrongdoing or any fault on the part of the other.

Spouse. They could just file a divorce for any reason that they want and they can get a divorce. And the most common reason that couples file for divorce by the way, is irreconcilable differences or, uh, also irreparable breakdown of the marriage. And, and by its very nature, a spouse can't fight against that.

A spouse can't say a spouse maybe who wants to fight for their marriage. They wanna work things out, work on the marriage. Uh, they, they can. So basically it's a Trump card. If you say that you wanna get a divorce, there's really nothing that your spouse can do to, to defend against that. And so an example of course, is maybe a husband who, you know, isn't getting along with his wife, they're having some issues.

And let's say that the wife wants to work through it. She wants to fight for the marriage, but maybe that the husband has another woman and he wants to run off with her. He can file for a divorce and the wife can't do anything about it. That's no fault divorce. And of course there's a big debate between, you know, no fault divorce and, uh, divorce, where you have to prove some sort of wrongdoing, but a as a whole today, no fault divorce is the standard.

Based on that fact, that would mean that, uh, an increasing number of divorces are preceded by a modest, rather than a severe level of disc. The study says, indeed longitudinal evidence indicates that a majority of recent divorces are not proceeded by an extended period of overt and intense marital conflict.

And so what they're saying there basically is that these issues. Could be worked out by the spouses. It's not so toxic. It's not so horrible in the marriage where it couldn't be worked out and may be really difficult. Maybe really painful, maybe really, really hard. We're not making light of that at all.

Um, but in these cases, it's not that the dramatic situation that a lot of people, uh, reference when they're talking about divorce. The, the study goes on. Some observers have argued that people often terminate their marriages these days, for reasons that have more to do with personal growth than escaping a destructive marriage.

And again, I just wanna be very clear to everyone listening, those intense, those horrible. Abusive marriages still exist. They're out there. And, and I know people, you know, who have been through that or, or maybe their parent is really abusive and, and my heart just breaks for spouses in those situations.

It breaks for the children in those situations. And we've always taken the stance at restored that in those cases, the spouse and the children need to get to. Like they absolutely should separate in those situations from the spouse who's causing all the trouble, the safety of the spouse and the children are very, very important.

But like I said before, the goal is to heal the marriage. It's to fix the reason for the separation and bring the family back together. And again, we're not naive. We know that in a lot of cases, that's not possible, but man, it is surely not happening today. It's not happening as much as it could or should.

Where, you know, we bring the spouses and the family back together. And when we talk about marriage, those of you who are religious, of course, you, you have more of a, a deeper understanding of marriage being a lifelong commitment. And that's what we believe are restored. That, that marriage is much deeper than some legal contract that the vows that the spouses make to each other at the wedding, uh, go much deeper than any contract than any legal document.

Other, I say it is by its nature. The marriage. Cannot be contained within a piece of paper. And unless there's a reason that the marriage was invalid. At the point where the vows were made, the vows were made for life. Now, I know marriage vows at weddings have changed over the years, but the, the, the traditional marriage vows, the, the real marriage vows, uh, promise faithfulness for life, it was very explicit.

In the marriage vows and a big reason for that. There's a lot to talk about there and we're gonna do more episodes on this. We'll be producing more content on this topic, but a reason for that, a huge reason for that was because that's what was best for the children. It wasn't just some, you know, religious idea.

It wasn't just some thing that, uh, society wanted. It was that when the parents are married, When the family is United, the kids do better in life. And again, we'll be talking about this more in the future. I don't mean to skip over this. This is a really important topic, but it's something that, that needed to be said.

So professor motto goes on and says, consequently, The type of disruptions that children find, especially distressing may represent an increasing proportion of all divorces. Again, those divorces where the spouses could get through it, they could work it out. It's not so dramatic and abusive that they can't, but they don't, they choose not to.

And so they basically conclude that based on that reason. Children whose parents are getting divorced for reasons, aside from the violence and abuse are the ones who are suffering even more. Now, it doesn't mean that the other children aren't suffering the divorce can still have a negative effect on them.

But when you compare it to the situation that they're living in today, well, maybe they're being abused or there's violence, things like that. Or maybe they even at the threat of death in those situations, of course is better for the child to be out of that scenario. But even in those cases, it it's, again, it's still a tragedy.

It's always a tragedy. It's always something that that's really difficult to go through. Like I mentioned, at the start of the show, it's like an amputation, right? We never say that an amputation of, of a limb of an arm of a leg is a good thing in itself, but it's sometimes unavoidable. You know, maybe we need to save the life of the person because they're bleeding out or whatever issue.

We have to take the arm. We have to take off the leg and I know bloody example, but, um, you got the idea. And so divorce, I would say is the same. We never call good in itself, but in some cases it may be unavoidable. And again, the, the status of the marriage. The vows that the spouse has made. They're a separate topic altogether, which we've talked about in the show.

Um, but what we'll touch on again in the future. Now, another possibility that they looked at for any changes in the gap between children of divorce and children of from intact families, is that the gap. Between those children could actually be getting bigger because it's so good for children who live in an intact family to, to have two parents, even for economic reasons.

And, and they go on to explain this. They said during the 1990s, the us economy expanded unemployment, went down the percentage of wives and mothers in the workforce. And the labor force increase and wages rose, especially for women, the benefits of economic growth, however were not distributed equal. Among families, the family group that experienced the largest rise in income during the 1990s consisted of married couples with both spouses.

In the paid labor force in contrast, single parent families experience a deterioration in economic resources during the 1990s. And so there's a lot there, but just to say that, of course divorce is financially. So damaging to, to a family because of course, mom and dad are going separate ways. Maybe, uh, you know, mom was working and dad wasn't, her dad was working and mom wasn't.

And so now mom needs to figure out what she's gonna do, or dad needs to figure out what he's gonna do and, you know, living expenses just double. And so there's all sorts of bad things that happen, you know, that it's obvious. Um, but basically what they're saying in this case is family income. It it's a big predictor of other healthy outcomes in children's lives.

And so it's possible that the children whose parents were continually married may have advanced, uh, more creating a bigger gap between them. And the children of divorce. And so one thing they said is it's possible that the children with married parents went forward. Not necessarily that the children of divorce went backwards, but because the children with married parents went forward, that the gap is bigger.

And so J just to summarize all of that, they basically said that observable differences, uh, may have shifted during the 1990s on various metrics due to a few different things. And I mentioned some of them, they said, One studies could have become more sophisticated in detecting the differences between the children of divorce and the children from in intact families.

Uh, like I mentioned, divorce, uh, became more acceptable. They, they mentioned that more therapeutic and legal interventions, more help for families became available. Uh, though personally, I question, you know, whether those things that they came up with were actually helpful to the children, um, based on, you know, the number of people that we worked.

Restored who who've been through a lot of that who are still very much so affected next that the decline in the level of marital discord that precedes the separation and then the growing economic equality that I just mentioned between children with married parents and children with separated parents.

Now, an important note here is they're focused on the observable. Differences, especially looking at it through like a quantitative lens. And what I mean by that is if they could put numbers to it and the, the truth is, and that's one of the limitations of these studies, is that not all of the differences, not in all the negative effects on the children can be observed, especially when they're younger.

And so if, if you read this. Study, uh, you'll get an idea of the limitation of these types of study and they really don't get into all the details. Like I mentioned before now, based on the people that we've worked with through ReSTOR, the research that we've read, uh, we've learned that people who come from broken homes, children of divorce, often that they don't say much or express how their parents broken marriage or the divorce.

Has affected them. They just kind of keep it to themselves for a lot of reasons. But a few of them, one, they just don't wanna rock the boat. There's been so much drama already. They would, they don't wanna cause more issues. And so they just keep their mouth shut. They don't wanna hurt their parents too, because saying that, Hey mom, dad, The problems in your marriage, that the divorce that you just got, it really affected me.

That can be really hard to say to your mom or true your dad. And so a lot of times we just keep our mouth shut. It's also difficult to talk about it's painful to talk about. And so it's very possible that we just hold it in and don't talk about it. Even when people try to encourage us to talk about it.

And then also it can just become so normal, right? Because life is this way now. And so it, we may not really know anything else that this is just the life that we've dealt with for the last so many years. And so this is just normal. So a lot of different reasons why children, no divorce don't talk. And so I would guess that some of those, um, observable differences were limited because of that reason, because children are divorced.

Maybe weren't willing to talk about it. And I should say too, that when they were looking at the differences between the two groups, they wanted to see if gender, uh, or age played any. And I'll get into that in a second. Okay. So the studies that they looked at, I mentioned there were 67 different studies and there were two criteria, uh, that the studies had to meet in order to be included.

One, it had to include a sample of children who were living with a parent who was single because of divorce. Right? It's not because of a spouse died or something like that. And, and to my knowledge, it doesn't include situations where, uh, the, the couple, the parents were living together, but they. Legally married.

And so that opens another can of worms and a huge group of people. But in this case they're not studying them. Uh, the, the second group of course, is children living with continually married parents. The, the second criteria was that, uh, the studies had to report data on at least one child outcome. Uh, that can be basically measured in one of those five areas that I mentioned, show some sort of a gap or a lack thereof.

Now you may be wondering what ages did this study focus on? Basically they focus on preschool to college age, and so adult children of divorce were not accounted in this. However, they did, like I mentioned, include college students. And so basically college students and younger, and they broke them into five areas.

The first area preschool. Second primary school or, or grade school or elementary schools, we call it in the states, third secondary school or high schools, we call it here. And then another group, another level they broke into was mixed between primary and secondary schools. There were some studies that, that looked at both of them together.

And then of course, like I mentioned, college students. So those are the five areas. Now a really, really important note here from the research of Dr. Judith Waller sign, she was at the university of California, Berkeley. She studied children of divorce for years and years and years, and she, she published her findings of a 25 year long study.

And the name of it is called the unexpected legacy of divorce. Some of you may have heard of it or even read it. And what she says in that book is that, uh, the biggest effects, the biggest negative effects from our parents' divorce actually aren't experienced. Until adulthood, perhaps in college, right?

Because college students are adults, but, but even further on in twenties, thirties, forties, and so on. And so if you keep that in mind, when we're looking at this research, Even if there are negative effects in the children's lives, it may have not all come to fruition yet. Like there may be more waiting to come to the surface than did when they were younger.

So like I mentioned, the researchers focus on five different areas. The first one was academic achievement and the way that they measured that was through standardized tests, grades, uh, ratings from teachers or parents about school achievement. And then also they looked at kids dropping out of high. So that's academic achievement.

The second area was conduct and conduct basically means their behavior, the child's behavior, their aggression, their delinquency, they say. And so, you know, did the kid get in trouble and on and on. And so that second area again is conduct. The third area. Third category is psychological. An emotional adjustment.

And what they're looking at here is depression, anxiety, and then just the general happiness of the child. So that's psychological and emotional adjustment, number three, number four self concept. And what they mean by this is basically self-esteem how the kids sees themselves. And then also confidence.

How confident are they? And so that's number four, that's self concept. And lastly, five. Social relations. So looking at things like popularity, cooperativeness, like do they get along with other kids and also the quality of their friendships that the peer relationships. And so that's number five, social relations.

Now, an interesting thing in past studies that this professor done professor Mato. He also looked at the parent child relationship, the relationship between the mom and the child or the dad and the child. Um, but for this study, they excluded that for some reason, it's not clear why they did, but they, they took that.

And one important thing to note that they state in this study is that all their findings, all their statistics went through rigorous testing. So they have a very high degree of reliability on these results. And so getting into those results, I first need to say that that the researchers gave the least amount of attention to children who were in preschool.

So typically preschool is like, Two years old to, to four or five years old. And so they barely gave them attention. There was an increase of focus on college students. Uh, but most of all, they said that the focus in these studies was on children in primary school. And also just to make this statistically accurate that they controlled for Prevo factors, they call it, uh, that the children were already experiencing.

So basically they wanted to know how. The divorce affected the kids, like what was the direct impact the divorce itself had on the children? So, so that's a huge footnote. So for example, if the kid was acting out, he was really angry, aggressive, uh, before the divorce. And then after the divorce, he, he was still aggressive.

Then they wouldn't have factored that into the, the study as an effect of divorce. It would've just said the kid was that way. Maybe, you know, it was due to the disruption at home, but it wasn't due to the divorce itself and the subsequent effects of the divorce. Okay. So of those 67 studies, they were able to make 177 separate comparisons because some of the studies looked at different things and they, they measured different results.

And so what they found. Was that 88%, almost 90% of those comparisons were negative. Basically the children of divorce, um, were measured worse off and 42% of those were negative and significant meaning they were, were statistically different enough to say this is significant. And so basically that confirmed that there's still a.

Between children of divorce and children with continuously married parents in areas of achievement, adjustment, and wellbeing. That's, that's how they say it. Now, professor Mato admits that, that he could have missed, uh, certain studies. He, he may have failed to locate some studies that were published in the 1990s on children of divorce.

He did also purposely. Not include studies that weren't published. And so to, to kind of statistically account for that, they added what's called a fail safe variable. And what that means in playing English is basically that they looked at how many studies that they could have possibly missed, uh, would be needed in order to show that divorce did not have a negative of impact on the children.

So basically they needed this many studies to override the, the results that found. Divorce is not good for the children. And, and what they've found is that there would need to be an additional 1,745 studies of academic achievement. Um, basically all with results that show that divorce does not negatively impact the children when it comes to academic achievement and, and some of the other metrics.

And so the, the conclusion then is. The larger population from which these samples were drawn. They say children with divorced parents scored lower than children with continuously married parents. Like I mentioned, they looked at the role that gender played in this as well. And they said, do boys or girls experience more negative effects than the other?

But what they found was the center finding. They said, therefore is that the divorce is associated with a range of poor outcomes among children. Irrespective of gender. So basically boys and girls were affected basically the same. Now, when it comes to age, they looked at this as well. And again, they focus on two categories in this regard, when they were looking at the, how age played as a factor, whether children were negatively affected or, or not.

And so they looked at primary school and secondary school. So, and part of the reason for that was when it came to preschool, there were actually. Too few samples to look at. And then when it came between a mix between primary and secondary schools, with those studies that looked at both at the same time, it was actually too difficult to interpret the, the data on that variable, the, the variable of age.

So basically what they found is that the younger kids, the kids in primary schools struggled more than the kids in high school or in secondary school. Now on the flip side, they found when it came to psychological adjustment, like I mentioned, anxiety, depression, things like that. That the, it was actually weaker.

So, so kids who were younger in primary school, for example, uh, were less likely to deal with that than kids who were in secondary school. So basically in plain English, as they got older, when it came to psychological adjustment, things got worse. They go on the explanation for this apparent discrepancy is not clear.

One possibility is that it is easier to measure psychological adjustment among adolescents than younger children. However, Adolescence with serious academic problems. Unlike younger children may drop out of school, leading to what they call weaker effect sizes, meaning leading to a less of a gap when it comes to academic achievement, between people who come from broken homes and people who come from, uh, intact families.

So, so basically what, what they're saying is that it's harder to measure. Psychological adjustment in younger kids. It's easier to do that in older kids. When it comes to academics, though, there, there could be a bigger pool to look at when the kids are younger, because they don't really have a choice, whether they say in school or not.

But when it comes to the older kids, they actually have a choice that can drop out of school. And if they do, then we wouldn't be measuring them and comparing them, uh, with people who come from intact family. They basically tie it up by saying it's difficult to interpret these results, uh, because the data reflect children's ages at the time of data collection rather than children's ages at the time of parental separation.

And that's just a huge flaw. I think, in, in all these studies is that in most of the studies, they didn't collect the age of the children. When the parents actually separated, they just collected the date either when they, um, studied the children or when the study was published. And so the researchers naturally didn't know if the divorce had happened maybe really recently for high school students or if, uh, the divorce had happened years prior, but the long term effects were starting to come out.

They were starting to accumulate. And so what they determined for the most part age didn't really matter that the negative effects were present in, in every age group. Uh, though they may have come out in different ways. So back to the original point where they were looking to compare. The children of divorce in the 1990s with earlier decades, like the eighties, the seventies and so on.

And what they concluded was that the data suggests the gap in psychological and emotional adjustment between children with divorce and continuously married parents was wider in the 1990s than at any earlier time. And so basically they say children of divorce from the 1990s, their parents got divorced in the 1990s.

They were actually worse off. then children, uh, whose parents got divorced in years prior that there was a bigger gap between them. The children are divorced and people, children who came from intact families. Now, even having said that, that they did find that there were consistent results in this study.

With previous studies and they, they, they explain, they say in the 1990s, as an earlier decades, research indicated that children with divorced parents scored significantly lower than children with continuously married parents on a variety of measured of achievement, adjustment, and wellbeing. The, the next point they make is that boys and girls are affected very similarly.

Like I mentioned, it doesn't really matter. Uh, one exception though, they did mention is that boys had more conduct or behavioral problems than girls typically. Uh, but overall, you know, both suffered similar disadvantages. Uh, another point they make is that the, the sophistication of the studies didn't close the gap, uh, between children with divorced parents and children with, uh, parents who are continuously married.

Remember when they set out, they thought one of the possibilities is that studies. That are more sophisticated, typically show less of a gap. And the studies that were performed in the 1990s were more sophisticated than the studies that were performed in, in years prior. And so their, their assumption was that the gap between children of divorce and children of intact families would be much closer that now in the 1990s than it was in the past to quote them directly given the fact that studies became more methodologically sophisticated during the 1990.

And given that more methodologically, sophisticated studies tend to yield relatively modest effect size. It follows that studies in the 1990s should produce smaller effect sizes than studies conducted in the earlier decades. Again, just what I said, that there would be less of a gap between children of divorce and children from intact families.

They go on to. But this was not the case. Wow. So there was still a strong difference between children who came from intact families and children who came from divorced families. So, so looking at the reasons for this, this bigger gap than in years prior, they, uh, named a few things. They said, one reason is basically the, the shift in the nature of marital disillusion.

We already talked about that, how it's easier to get divorced these days. And so people are getting divorced, even in cases where, uh, you know, things. Really intense, really bad. They're just getting divorced for other reasons. And that has more of a negative effect on the children. A, another reason, of course, like I mentioned before, was the economic reason.

They, they thought that really had a big impact on the children. If they came from a family where both parents were working or, you know, even if one parent was working, there were other dynamics that were really healthy and good for them. And, uh, and so those kids, because of the, uh, economic prosperity of the 1990s, Those kids could have pulled further ahead benefiting from, uh, that prosperity.

Whereas the kids who came from broken homes wouldn't have benefited as much and therefore there would be a bigger gap. Another kind of shocking funding was that the, the decline for children of divorce happened. Regardless of certain efforts to help them. And, and the, the study says the apparent decline in the relative wellbeing of children with divorced parents during the last decade, during the 1990s, this shift occurred in spite of the growth of school base interventions for children, parenting classes for divorcing parents and divorce media.

Basically we're saying it didn't really have that much of an effect. However, they, they, they do go on to say that this conclusion does not mean that the spread of therapeutic and legal interventions hasn't benefited the children at all. It, it only means that other social forces have operated even more strongly to disadvantage children from divorce families.

And so again, and then not to overstate what I said before. It's possible that these programs have been good and a lot of them have been good. Um, but the negative impacts may have ratcheted it up. They might have gotten more intense. So even if these interventions did help, which in some cases they probably didn, in other cases, they didn't, um, it, it could have outweighed the help that people were trying to provide these children.

And, and they also admit in this research, some of the other limitations, which I touched on before, but basically they said we need to get more in depth research on children of divorce. And since then there has been, and we'll be exploring them more on this show. And just throughout restored as a whole.

Now they close the study by talking about the implications for practitioners and by practitioners, of course, we mean. Counselors therapists, um, lawyers, judges, people who are impacting the lives of these children. So if that's you, if you're listening right now, um, it's really important to hear this. And even to, to dive into some of this research yourself, they say, although marital disillusion has become normative in American culture, practitioners should be aware that children with divorced parents as a.

Continue to fare more poorly than children with continuously married parents. So just restating what we already talked about. And, and just to, again, summarize I say in particular, children with divorced parents achieve lower levels of success at school are more poorly behaved. Exhibit more behavioral and emotional problems have lower self-esteem experience, more difficulties in interpersonal relationships.

Again, they reiterate that something's getting worse. Like children of divorce are doing worse off in the 1990s than they did in prior years. I think I love this quote. This next quote is just so spot on. He says practitioners working. With divorcing families or children with single parents, therefore should not underestimate the extent to which family disruption continues to represent a risk factor for a range of undesirable child outcomes.

Basically, the divorce is bad for them. Don't underestimate it. This, this really is affecting them, but they say, and I want to emphasize this too, cuz this whole episode could probably be kind of depressing. It's intriguing for sure. But uh, there is some hope and, and they go on to say, The adjustment of children following divorce depends on a variety of factors, including the level of conflict between parents before and after the separation.

The quality of parenting from both the custodial and the non-custodial parent, the one living with the children. One who's not changes in the child's standard of living. And the number of additional stressors to which children are exposed such as moving or changing schools. And so basically parents especially have a huge, huge role in negating some of these negative effects.

And it doesn't mean that they can remove them all together, but they can really. Help their children to, to cope, to heal, to grow, uh, through this whole really messy and difficult and painful process. Now that doesn't mean they're gonna be able to wipe away the negative effects of divorce. No, it's not possible, but they, they can have a big hand in helping their children.

They go on to say that knowledge of group averages, therefore cannot predict how a particular child will adjust to family disruption. So that's what I mentioned before, how these averages, they just say what's most likely to happen, but there's a lot of different variables that, that impact the individual children.

They go on to say, nevertheless, The persisting and apparently increasing gap between children with divorce and continuously married parents suggests the continuing importance of developing and evaluating therapeutic and educational programs for divorcing families. We can agree more. That's why resort exists to help young people, teenagers, and young adults who come from broken homes where their parents are separated.

Their parents are divorced, or maybe because there is some overlap, there's just in a really, really ugly, messy family. Like the marriage is just a mess. And so that's why we exist. We wanna be one of those resources and really there's almost nothing. I mean, there's resources here and there on local levels, but there's nothing like restore there really isn't.

That is trying to provide the help that we're trying to provide. And so, uh, we are so pumped that this study just kind of affirms the fact that we need to exist. There needs to be more help for people who come from broken homes in closing out. They say that closer ties between practitioners and researchers will be necessary to formula.

Effective strategies for minimizing the disruptive effects of marital disillusion on children. Now, why not? Of course having said all that, why don't we go to the root cause the, the study doesn't mention this, but, but we wanna mention it. Why don't we prevent divorces from happening in the first place?

And that's really, our vision and resort is to reverse the cycle of divorce by helping young people heal. And the reason that's so important is this hurt people, hurt people. Children divorce are more likely statistically to get divorce. We, we typically just repeat what we saw in our parents' marriage.

It's really sad. It's depressing and it's scary for people like us. And so we wanna prevent that, but to do that, we really need to heal because aside from really bad, you know, vices in our life. That the thing that really holds us back from living the life that we want from thriving, from becoming the best version of ourselves is the untreated trauma is the untreated brokenness.

And so we really need to address that so that we don't just pass it on to our kids and to our spouse and end up in a really messy broken marriage. And so we believe that if we can help young people heal, help young people become virtuous, they're gonna go on and they're gonna build. Good solid marriages, which we also want help with.

And from that, they'll be good parents they'll form, you know, good solid families. And it's those families that are going to transform our culture. So we're betting everything on that. Like that is the vision that that's the reality that we're trying to bring about. And so thank you so much for, for listening and for, for being a part of this, being a part of restored, your support just just means the world.

And so I, I hope this episode has been helpful. I hope it's been insightful showing what the research has to say. On this topic of how divorce affects the children. Uh, we're gonna be bringing more content like this in the future. Uh, not just focusing on the problem, but also on the solution as well. And so just thank you so much for being along for the ride.

Uh, if you believe what we believe, if you believe that this message needs to get out, that more people need help like this, that the millions of children of divorce, uh, shouldn't be neglected. I, if you want a hand in this, and I know a lot of you have reached out to us and. How can I help? I wanna help.

You've been so generous. Uh, if you wanna help, a really practical thing that you can do is make a small donation. Uh, it doesn't have to be a hundred or $200. It can be small, it can be $20. It can be $5. And that the monthly donations, the small monthly donations are one way that you can support this podcast so that we can keep making.

Content, uh, for you, for people who come from broken homes, for people who love or lead them. And so those monthly donations are huge. Uh, we're bringing on team members, we're growing, we're, we're laying out future projects. We're gonna be putting on more content if you're on our email list, uh, you'll be hearing more about that, but to, to grow.

Uh, we need money. And so if, if you believe in this, if you think that this has a lot of potential, then we need you. We need you to come alongside of us and to partner with us. It's not just given some money and, and us doing the rest. No, it's really you becoming a partner in this mission. We need you. And so, uh, if you would, if you wanna donate, if you wanna support the show, uh, go to restored ministry.com/donate again, that's restored ministry.com/.

Donate and ministry is just singular. And on that page, um, just choose the amount that you wanna donate and then the frequency, and you can make a one time gift, or you can make a monthly gift. And like I said, the monthly gifts are hugely helpful for us. Uh, from a business standpoint, because we need to know how much revenue, how much money we're bringing in each month.

So we know how many people we can hire, you know, what sort of projects we can do. And so if you would do a monthly donation, that would be fantastic. Again, it doesn't have to be a hundred dollars a month. It can be, uh, $20 a month, if you can do that, but it could even be $5 a month if that's all you can offer.

And so we're super grateful for whatever you can do. Those donations make this work. And again, we'll be coming out with more info, uh, about how you can support restored as well. But if you would donate today, we'd be so grateful and it would help us reach more people who come from broken homes. Again, you could donate@restoredministry.com slash donate, and we'll put the link in the show notes too.

If you wanna just click on that to donate the resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 33. Again, restored ministry.com/. Three. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been helpful for you, please subscribe, share this with someone that, that you know, who could use it. And guys, thank you.

Thank you so much for again, your support and for being here, listening, uh, sharing feedback on how helpful this has been for you. We really appreciate, and always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#032: How to Navigate the Holidays: Advice from 11 Children of Divorce

The holidays are especially challenging for anyone with separated or divorced parents. So many of us dread this time of the year. We often feel alone and uncertain of how to deal with it all.

To offer practical guidance, some of our audience submitted voice memos to answer this question: What’s one tip you’d give to teens or young adults from divorced or separated families on navigating the holidays?

This episode contains that advice. By listening and implementing the tips, our hope is that you’ll reduce the drama and enjoy the holidays again.

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Links & Resources

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• #031: My Parents’ Divorce Made Me Crave Belonging | Carlie Spaulding

• Viktor Frankl: Man’s Search for Meaning

• Dr. Susan David: Emotional Agility: Get Unstuck, Embrace Change, and Thrive in Work and Life

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Welcome to the Restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce or separation so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode thirty 2wo and today we're mixing it up a little bit. We asked our audience to submit their advice through voice memos.

We asked them this question. We said, what's one tip that you'd give teenagers and young adults who come from broken homes, whose parents are separated or divorce on navigating the holidays. And this podcast, this episode contains those tips. Now, most of you already. The, the holidays can be especially challenging for anyone with separated or divorced parents.

A lot of us feel alone and uncertain of how to deal with it all. Instead of experiencing the, the joy, the holidays that we're supposed to, we often feel torn between our parents. Uh, maybe we feel overwhelmed or frustrated sometimes even embarrassed. And most of the time just sad that things are so broken in our family.

And I get it. Been there. My parents separated when I was 11 and they later got divorced. And so my siblings and I have had to deal with all this especially deal with the holidays. We've, you know, of course tried to be fair to both of my parents. Uh, but sometimes we maybe feel pressured to, to please both parents, uh, or feel pressured to pick sides and all the other fun stuff that comes along with this.

And it shouldn't be this. I really shouldn't be this way. And I'm so sorry that you're going through this, especially those of you, maybe your parents just separated or they just got divorced and this wound is kind of fresh for you. I'm really sorry that you're going through this. And again, I get it. I understand it.

And we exist for you. We are here for you. So that's the good news. You're not alone. And I know that the advice today in this episode is going to help you. You're gonna walk away with some practical tips, things that you can implement, things that you can use to navigate the challenges that this time of the year.

Springs and hopefully you'll be able to avoid, or at least handle the drama and enjoy the holidays again. And at the end, we'll tell you about a free private online community that you can join to find support, especially during this time of the year. But first let's dive into the advice.

Hi, this is Carly from. And navigating the holidays with divorced parents is never easy. Sometimes it can seem like there's so many conflicting interests in different places to go all in one day. And it may seem like the holidays are just more exhausting than they ever are fun. But one piece of advice I was, I would give is someone whose parents have divorced since I was five, is to work it out with your parents where maybe you can spend an entire day with one parent on a holiday.

And then the next day with the other parent, for instance, my dad doesn't love Christmas as much as he loves Thanksgiving. And my mom's the other way around. So growing up, I always spent Thanksgiving day with my dad and Christmas day with my. And then I would go to the other parent the day after I know sometimes it can feel like there might be pressure to go to both places in one day or even pressure in terms of jealousy of another parent or another family member.

Um, but I would say stay strong because you don't owe anyone. Anything your parents's divorce is not your fault. Therefore you are not responsible for keeping your parents from having hurt feelings over which house you choose to spend a holiday at. Remember that you were strong and that even though it can really hurt and be hard to disappoint someone that you never owe anyone, anything, and the holidays can still be a peaceful, happy, exciting family, filled time.

Even with your situation, know that I'm here for you. If you ever need to talk and feel free to email me, if you need to.

You may recognize Carly from episode 31, where she came on and she shared her story of how her parents' divorce has affected her. If you wanna get in touch with her, you can go to restored ministry.com/ 31. Again, that's restored ministry ministries to singular.com. Slash three one. And her email is on that page and she reminded me of something.

A, another friend of mine said, uh, his parents are, are divorced and his wife's parents are divorced and now they have little kids. And he said, uh, one year, maybe a few years, they, they tried going to, to both. Parents' homes. Uh, I don't know if it was both sides or just one side. I think it was just one side.

And you said even that was exhausting. And so just like Carly said, it can be really helpful to just pick one day for one parent and then do the next day for the other parent. And if you need to separate it by weekends, whatever. Totally fine. And so I love Carly's advice and another thing she said, Really gave hope to me was that the holidays can still be beautiful.

They can still be joyful. Like they don't need to be sad and depressing all the time. Maybe they are right now, especially if this is fresh for you, if it's new for you, but it doesn't always have to be this way. But an important thing to keep in mind. Is that it may take some work to get there, not just by you, but by everyone involved.

And the truth is the hard truth is that you can't control everyone. You can only control, you can only change you. And so I have hope do what you can do. What's in your power to, to make the holidays beautiful, to make them joyful again. And I hope that in the end, uh, not only you, but everyone in your family can experience that too.

I know things won't be the same. We'll go back to what they were, but you can't experience the joy of the holidays.

Hi, I'm Elise from Portland, Oregon. And I like to start this off by saying that, especially during the holiday season, it's so easy to look at other families and wish that your family was like theirs or wish that your whole family was under the same roof. and a good example of the sugar coated family is a Macy's holiday commercial.

You know, it's all smiles and color coordinating clothes, and it all seems too perfect. Right? Well, it's sugar coated and it's not real. what is real and what's genuine is what you've gone through. you've gone through a lot and it's hard. It's, it's not easy at all. Anyone that tries to tries to normalize divorce and to this easy thing, it's not.

And thinking about those sugarcoated families, it's really easy to ask yourself, what am I missing instead of asking what you're missing? What have you gained? I. We've all gained experience from this and lessons and things. We we'd wanna teach our future kids someday or something that will at least make our marriages a little easier.

Now that we've gone through this, we've gone through lots of experience and life lessons and things that have changed our perspective of the world. And, you know, sometimes that can be negative or positive. and during the holiday season, it's really easy to be sad or wish that certain people were there with you and wonder things.

But instead of doing that, try to be thankful for who is there for you. Try to be thankful for those who stick around. I mean, we've all, we all have someone, whether it's still your mom or your dad or a sibling. Or, you know, a pet . I mean, it's the little things and yeah, it's cliche to say that, but it's true.

It is the little things in life are so important and your family is a huge, huge thing. And it's, it's a hard thing to have to see your family break apart, but you are not breaking apart. You're learning things and you're going through new things and it's hard. Trust me, but. It's so important to not stray away from the fact that you're still loved.

There are so many reasons to be thankful. Think about the food you're going to eat during the holidays that is fun or gifts you get to give, or you receive little things like that. And. Try to focus on the people that are still there for you. And don't aim for a Macy's holiday commercial family. I mean, ho hopefully you guys know what I mean.

If you look up the commercials, you probably know, um, don't ask yourself, what am I missing? Think about what you have gained, what you have learned through all of this. So that next holiday season will, will be even better. Life's not perfect. Life. Isn't sugar coated. These are all genuine experiences you've gone through.

And instead of dwelling in it and being sad and wishing your family was something different, try to learn about and try to wonder what you've gained, because that is very important and just be thankful for what you still have. And the fact that you're still here sees are said than done. um, by promise it makes a difference.

So, uh, thank you for having me or listening. um, Yeah, I hope this comes in handy for anyone. And I really do hope that this holiday season is better or easy. And if it's not, I'm here for you in any way. And yeah.

All right. Would you believe me if I told you that Elise is only 15, maybe 16 years old? I, I always tell her that she has wisdom beyond her years and, and I loved hearing from her. She's a part of restores online community and she she's just incredible. Uh, one of the things I love that she said is how we need to use what we've learned.

From this really painful, difficult experience of our family breaking apart, uh, to build our future families. And one of the ways, honestly, that, that we can find resolution to this problem in our life is doing just that is building our future families, our future marriages, uh, or the families and marriages around us, helping them to, to survive and thrive, especially when things.

And get difficult. Uh, another thing she said that I loved was just about gratitude, just being grateful for the little things. And as you can tell, she was very balanced in acknowledging how difficult it can be to go through this. But at the same time, encouraging us to, uh, be grateful to, to be thankful for the good things that we have in our lives.

And all of us have something to be grateful for, like she said. And so, yeah, that's our, our challenge too, like Elise said, and I'm, I'm gonna join with her saying, what can you be grateful for? And I know for me, It's been so helpful to, to find those things in my life. And it's honestly made me a happier person.

And that's what the research shows as well. People who are grateful, people who practice gratitude are happier. They're less stressed. They're they're just better off in life. And so go ahead and practice gratitude.

Hi, this is Leanne from Phoenix. I'm gonna go through just a couple of very difficult things that can happen during the holidays and maybe ways we can, um, we can handle those things. Um, so one of the things is that we tend to dread the holidays, right? So , we just have, we feel lost. We feel disappointment.

We, we don't. Feel the connection with family that we want to feel. And so we've just learned to dread the holidays and, uh, that becomes a habit that goes on through life. So if you started to do that, or if that's a very entrenched habit, you might wanna think about, do you really want to do that? Do you want to maybe give yourself permission to enjoy part of the holiday?

And just have a, um, the relationships with people that you can have and, and allow those things to grow and just have a pleasant time, but not expect that everything's going to be healed and fixed all on, on one holiday. And if it doesn't, then it's gonna be awful because this is the way, uh, a lot of adult children of divorce and separation tend to think about holidays.

It's going to really put everything on display. And we, um, we have these expectations from our, the loss that we felt in our lives, and we want that connection and that love, but really we can also just decide that we wanna have a pleasant holiday and that is, uh, something that will help build memories and help heal relationships.

Um, the most important thing, when you're thinking about how you're interacting with other people is that you need to have a firm understanding that you are an unrepeatable beloved child of God. You are a treasure and you are a gift and. Um, other people's behaviors, their ability to love capacity to love their, their understanding of right ordered relationships, their, um, their capacity for, for, um, for vulnerability, with other people and just all of the things that are needed for, for relationships.

Um, that, um, should not define us. That is what's going on with them. That is not us. So our value is independent of that, and we don't want our happiness, uh, in life to be always hooked on someone. Else's. Uh, whether they're doing well, whether they're in a healthy relationship, whether they're giving, uh, us the, the love that we need, uh, in that relationship, you know, the childhood relationship or, or that sibling relationship, we put a lot of, uh, of our own happiness, um, in connection with how someone else is doing.

And that's not wise because we can choose to be happy and choose to do things, um, that heal relationships and work on relationships. Irrespective of how other people are doing. We might have to spend a little time less connected to them, but, um, we wanna make sure that we're not having our entire happiness built on how someone else is doing and how, how they're treating us.

We don't want, we don't want that to happen. So, um, another thing that we can do is consider some of the behaviors that occur often in family gatherings and prepare for them. So don't take the bait when, with that one person who always wants to argue , um, perhaps if there is. uh, a relationship where there there's a lot of, um, disagreement and there's a lot of, uh, tension and maybe, um, you, the family situation, when it broke up, it caused all kinds of problems that are just constantly there with that person.

That's difficult. How do you interact with that person? Or how do you interact in a more difficult situation where, where let's say your dad brings this new girlfriend to a holiday event, right? How do you, how do you interact and, and what do you do? And that can. Us to be sort of paralyzed and not know how we're going to react.

Um, and we don't wanna be maybe too friendly because that would be maybe disloyal to the parent. That's not there. And other people will be listening and they have different ideas and that's gonna cause this problem. And it all gets so complicated and we really get up in our heads and get confused about all of it and it, it can be very paralyzing.

So one thing to consider is just the viewpoint that you have about how you're gonna handle these interactions. Really you're a decent person and decent people are civil. And they're kind and they're considerate and they're respect. and if you can do that and we can all do that, right. Respect, kindness, consideration, just being civil.

We can all do that. Right. So if, if, if you have to meet this person and everybody's pretending like it's okay and you're not feeling it's okay, you'd like to just give this new girlfriend a piece of your mind and whatever, obviously now is not the time. And so what you could say is. I'm going to be civil and kind and, and, um, and, uh, considerate.

Uh, hello. It's nice to meet you. Uh, perhaps over time, we'll get to know one another. I'm going to go get something to eat, and I hope you have a really enjoyable time tonight. And if more conversation comes up later, you can interact, uh, in what might be termed a shallow way, but that's okay because you're not looking for a best friend.

You're looking for a way to, to be pleasant where you're, you know, you're not, um, upsetting your father. You don't maybe want to do that and you don't. So, you know, how do I do all of this? Well, you don't have to figure all that out. They caused this, right? So all you need to do is be civil and kind and respectful and considerate.

And. and, you know, sometimes people have to live with the consequences of their actions. So, um, that's, that's really not about you. Um, and so, you know, there, there are other things that happen in, in families where people give you give, um, certain people, certain roles. So let's say someone does something really awful or says something really awful.

And they expect you, your role is to go fix it. You know, you can decide you don't wanna do that anymore. You can say, you know, that person just said something awful and it's gonna cause a big problem. Maybe one day he'll learn to not do that. But if that doesn't mean that I need to get involved. So we just wanna think ahead a little bit about what might happen.

First of all, just remember that you are a valuable person, irrespective of how anybody is treating you. And, um, that's a trap that we just tend to fall into. And so we wanna avoid that. And just, um, think of some situations that might come up and how you wanna handle them. And some, maybe some things to say if things get difficult.

Um, so yeah, I'm hoping we can all look back on these holidays and have handled those difficult things well and allowed ourselves to feel a little bit of joy because, um, we deserve that. So I hope you have a good holiday season with your family, to the extent that you can.

I think of a lot of us need the reminder that it's okay. If we're not with our family. For a certain holiday. Maybe we just need a second. And I know for some of you, that's not possible, right? You, you live with your family, you have to be with them. Uh, but maybe there is some leeway there where you can take some time to be with a family friend or something else.

But I know for a lot of you, you can't do that. Uh, but for some of you, you can. And so, yeah, I just encourage you to, to take that time if you need it, if things. In your family are just really toxic. It's not good for you to be there. Take that time. It's okay. Well, Leanne brought up about, you know, a new girlfriend, a new boyfriend for, for mom or dad.

That can be really difficult. And I'm not gonna say much on that. We'll be producing content separately on that topic, but I, I think her advice was really good. And I just wanted to highlight that because so many of us. Uh, deal with that at some point. And I love Leanne's affirmation. It it's so important guys.

So many of us feel like maybe we're not loved. Even if our parents do love us, we may not feel that we're loved. And so I just want you to know, like Leanne said, you you're a unique unrepeatable person. You're valuable just in who you are. Not anything you do, not your relationships or how perfect things are in your life, but just for who you are as a person, you're a human person.

You are valuable. And if you feel like nobody's there for you, I just want you to know that I am that restored is I literally create a ReSTOR for you. We care about you and we're always, always here for you.

Hello, I'm Steve Tartaglia from Potsdam New York. My experience of Christmas has changed over the years when I was very young. My family was altogether and we celebrated Christmas in a fairly typical. Christmas Eve, we went to the anticipated mass followed by dinner, usually with a few people that didn't have anyone else to celebrate with.

And then off to bed to listen for reindeer Hoves on our roof and jingle vows from a sleigh streaking across the sky. Waking up early on Christmas to open our presents, then breakfast at home, travel to grandma's house, where we spent the afternoon and evening with our extended family. When I was 12, grandpa died, the experience changed, but most of it stayed the same.

My parents divorced in a process that lasted all the years. I was in high school. The way we celebrated Christmas changed even more, but most of it stayed the. When I went away to college and only came home on holidays, celebrating Christmas changed even more. But most of it stayed the same when mom remarried and took the younger half of the family across the country.

When dad got sick with throat cancer and had half of his tongue removed so that he could no longer eat in the normal way. And it was hard to hold a conversation with him. When one of my brothers left the Catholic church and embraced the Protestant religion of his wife, when my younger brothers went into the armed forces and we celebrated Christmas while they were overseas at war when grandma died and we no longer went to her house for the holidays, the way that we celebrated Christmas changed.

But most of it stayed the. When I was a young man in seminary, trying to figure out if God was calling me to the priesthood, the way I celebrated Christmas changed at this time in my life for a few years, the celebration of Christmas became very different for me. Most of the external parts of the celebration, the family, the food, the presence were gone.

And I focused primarily on the spiritual reality of Christmas. I started to understand in a very personal way, the reality of sin and redemption, and I experienced a profound gratefulness for the incarnation of Christ. When I eventually realized I was being called to the sacrament of matrimony, not priesthood.

And when I got married and had five children, I realized that the celebration of Christmas did not just happen automatically. A lot of work and preparation was involved in celebrating it. Well, I was not just along for the ride as I was in my younger years, whatever experience my young children would have of Christmas would be shaped by me and by my wife.

So I reached back into my mind and heart and pulled forth the best things I had experienced in 40 years of celebrating Christmas and began building the celebration for my children. And while the way that I celebrated Christmas changed, because now I'm the adult giving shape for the celebration. Most of it stayed the same.

The details of our lives change over time, who we celebrate with, where we celebrate, how we celebrate it, all inevitably changes. But you come to realize that most of the details stay the same. And that the biggest thing that changes is your involvement. As you mature, you realize that Christmas is a gift to us because it allows us to express our love for God and other people in special ways that we don't normally do throughout the year.

So my advice to teens and young adults trying to navigate the holidays in, in very challenging times is very simple. Pray every day and ask God to show himself to other people through you. In your thoughts, in your words, in your actions, let other people experience God's love through you in whatever circumstances that you're in.

So many people who come from broken homes. Talk about how they had traditions when they were younger and then once their parents separate or divorced, all that was gone. And so I think it's really important for, for us moving forward that we make traditions of our own. And Steve touched on that really well.

How, you know, as we grow up, we're the ones who will form. Shape the holidays for our kids, for our families. And so I think it's really important to be very intentional about that. Maybe there's some things in your past that you would love to, uh, bring into your own family or your future family. And so make some time for that, maybe write down a list and then talk to your spouse to make those things happen, because we all need those traditions.

Especially as we build our own families, what Steve said too. Remember the real meaning of the holiday, whatever holiday it is. He mentioned Christmas. Remember the real meaning. It's so easy to get caught up in the superficialness of each holiday. It's so easy to get caught up in the drama happening in our family, or, you know, the tension that's going on.

We really need to focus on the real meaning. It doesn't mean we ignore all that other stuff. It doesn't mean you can't, you know, watch a hallmark movie, but we really need to remember what's the real meaning. Of this holiday, whether that's Thanksgiving or Christmas or new year's or whatever holidays you celebrate this time of the year, focus on that.

Let that anchor you. If things around you are crazy or less than ideal.

Hi, my name is Kate from Kansas, and I wanted to share a little bit of advice as far as navigating the holiday. From scripture verse Hebrews 12, 14, make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be who without holiness, no one will see the Lord. I think this is, um, a helpful scripture verse because it reminds me to make every effort to live in peace with everyone.

So throughout the holiday gathering or. Um, whatever your plans may be usually, uh, for holidays, we'll meet with at least one. Several family members. And so just making an effort to have peace within myself so that I can share that peace with others. I'm planning on going to mass first thing in the morning on Thanksgiving and Christmas.

Um, just to kind of set the tone to remember, to keep that piece within that God is offering me that piece and is supplying. The piece and that I don't have to rely on other people around me to. Give me that piece, but that God has already planted it within my heart and spending time in prayer, just asking the Lord for that piece throughout the day can be a really good way to begin the day every day.

But especially when you know that there might be maybe some potential conflict or maybe something. Some words that are shared, that aren't peaceful, which are pretty common in families like ours, you know, that, that have grown up with, um, some difficulties, some hurt feelings, um, but remembering to keep peace within my heart and remembering that God is with me throughout the day, supplying that.

Helps me helps me to remember that that our God is a God of peace that he longs for us to have peace within our hearts and within our families. I also try to remember that I'm only in charge of the next interaction. I can't fathom what the day will be like. Exactly. I mean, I certainly know the people that I'll be spending time with.

Just taking each situation under my own control, kind of, as far as remembering that I'm just in charge of the next situation. So let's say I go up and have a conversation with my dad. Well, I can remember that I'm striving for peace. I have peace within my heart. The God of peace is beside. And that I can insert peace into that conversation.

And if for some reason there is something that's said, I'm in charge of my own actions towards that conversation. So I can step back. I can go outside to take a deep breath of fresh air. I can choose to go and have a conversation with someone else. I can leave. There's many things that I can do, but remembering to keep peace within.

and asking the Lord for peace throughout the day would be my top piece of advice. and looking back to this scripture verse from Hebrews 12, make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy, the Lord is with us. He knows our story. He knows our thoughts and our feelings, and he longs to be a healing presence within, as we journey through this life.

God bless.

That's scripture versus beautiful. It's a great reminder. And I love the point that your peace, your happiness is so much more dependent on you than it is on anyone else. Also, the, the point that Kate made that you really can't have peace with others until you have peace within your own heart. We can't have peace with others until we stop worrying against them in our hearts and a big piece of.

Is forgiveness. And remember forgiveness is not saying what happened didn't matter or what happened. Didn't hurt me. No, not at all. It's not saying that it's just releasing someone of the debt that they owe you because they hurt you. There's so much more to forgiveness. There are steps that you can follow to actually forgive someone.

So we'll be producing more content around that. But I love what Kate said too, about focus on just the next interaction. I don't know if she intended this or not, but instead of getting overwhelmed with the rest of your life, just focus on the next interaction. Try to make that go well. And the advice you gave of stepping outside in taking a little bit of a breather, uh, it is wise, of course we wanna ideally resolve any sort of conflict or drama.

If we can, right? Maybe, sometimes things are just so toxic that we can't even be talking with a person, but ideally we'd resolve the conflict. So don't just go outside and never talk about the issue again. But if possible, try to resolve that too, but it could be a great little break, especially at a big family party, if things aren't going so well.

Hi, Joey, this is from Miami, Florida. Thank you for this opportunity to share some pointers. As we face this holiday season, I know how difficult the holidays are for all of us and how our joyful expectations can turn into strength, stressful and tension filled days. I remember very well how I used to dread those holiday gatherings.

So being that these 2020 holidays. Will be definitely somewhat different. I will share two things that have always helped me to survive. First. I have always been very close to my faith and I can attest that without it. I would never have been able to survive my wounds from being a child of divorce. I know that many have strayed from their faith because they feel they have been abandoned by God.

I know that because of our vulnerability, we tend to distrust everyone, including God, personally, I thought that if I did not give God a chance, I would never know what I would be missing out on. So I invite you to give him a chance to listen to you when we feel we have no one to cry out to, and everything looks BLE.

God is always there. All we need to do is call out to him. God, listen to me, help me. I need your help. And then simply be patient and attentive. Should I give God a chance in my life? Well, that is your personal decision. At this point, you have nothing to lose. However, you might have a lot to gain. We must try to stop labeling ourselves as children of divorce, because God does not put labels on us.

So instead, can we see ourselves as children of God? Do you think you can do this? It's your choice. God gives us all free will so we can make our own choices. He will never force us to do anything. We don't want. Secondly, get yourself a journal and start writing positive things about yourself. Don't write any negative thoughts, make your journal entries, a safe place for you to discover all the wonderful God-given talents and gifts that you have.

Discover what you're good at. Discover those hidden talents that you might be wanting to try out, you know? We allow ourselves to become so consumed in our pain that we let our circumstances control our lives. So go ahead, give yourselves permission to discover you your likes and dislikes create a plan for your own life.

Work at it. Think about it, act on it. Try to learn to detach from your pain. Even if only for short periods at a time, give yourselves permission to enjoy the holidays. When you begin to see yourself in a positive light, your perspective will change. Life will start to look much better because you are feeling better about yourself.

I hope that my suggestions may be of help to all of you be assured. You can do this. God love you. And may your holiday season be a good one?

I know a lot of you listening, don't come from a faith background or maybe you just don't believe in God. And I'm so happy that you're here. The trend that we're seeing. So many people who, you know, have gone through their parents' separation or divorce, just really ugly marriage. They really have found so much healing in their relationship with God, because.

Body and soul, right. We have the physical component and the spiritual component. And if we just heal on a human level, Uh, that's good, but it's really not enough. We really need to go further and heal on that spiritual level too. And so we're gonna be producing content around that topic as well. And just addressing those barriers that almost all of us face.

If we come from a broken home, I also love the point about the term children of divorce. You know, it's true that that's a true term in a lot of ways. And we use it because a lot of people use it. That's how people talk about people like us, but there's really this false idea that that's our identity.

It's not, it's just an experience that we have. It's affected us. It's affected our identity, how we understand ourselves, who we are, but it doesn't define us. And so it is dangerous to constantly call ourselves children of divorce. And so even the title of this podcast we were hesitant about, uh, but just for search purposes.

And so people can find us. That's just what we went with, but what we don't ever wanna say, that that is our identity. It's simply an experience that we've had.

Hello. My name is Dr. Daniel Meola with life giving wounds. Which is another ministry for adult children, divorce. And I'm excited to be partaking on this restored podcast. Keep up the great work, Joey, and my advice for adult children, divorce around the holidays. This, um, Thanksgiving and Christmas season is to really focus on your interior freedom.

The things that you can control is your response inside yourself. Why that's important is so often we are focused on. Keeping everybody in our family, happy we're scanning the surroundings and everything, uh, to make sure that it doesn't devolve into conflict and that's no way to live. That's, that's living in fear.

Instead, we wanna focus on what we can truly control, which is our own interior response and our own interior freedom. So this holidays, don't worry so much about making everybody happy, which is outside of your control. They. Somebody else. Who's their God. It's not you instead focus on your own interior freedom.

And if you're religious, you know, unite that with, uh, Christ with God and try and develop faith hope and love. So take care of your interior freedom. And may you find joy this holiday? God bless.

That's a great tip to focus on ourselves and our response to certain people or situations instead of just focusing on everything that's outside. We really need to focus on what we can do about a situation. And if you've heard me give a talk, you've heard me quote, Victor Frankel. He said between stimulus and response, there is a space in that space is our power to choose our response in our response lies our growth and our freedom.

I wanna say that one more time between stimulus and response, there is a space in that space is our power to choose our response in our response lies our growth and our freedom. That's substantial. Our freedom depends on how well we respond to a situation or a person. In other words, the greater our self mastery in choosing a response, the more free that we are.

And so to build virtue in our lives, we need to lengthen that space between stimulus the thing that makes us feel something and response. So take a breath. Think for a moment, try to detach yourself from the intensity of the emotions that you're feeling. And then choose a response again, that aligns with your deepest held beliefs that comes from Dr.

Susan David, uh, at the Harvard medical school, she wrote a book called emotional agility and she encourages people to, to do that. And I know when I do that, well, I always feel happier. I'm always more at peace and I'm more free.

Hello? Aw. This is from Texas. If I could give any piece of advice to a teenager or a younger adult in navigating the holidays, it would have to just be that number one. Remember that you are royalty. You are a son or a daughter of a king. Who's perfect. Our parents here on earth have flaws. We have flaws, but perfection in.

most unconditional love can only come from God, the father, and never feel shame, never feel shame, or that you are betraying either your mom or your dad, by going to spend time with either one and more importantly, to be strong. if you're, um, a teenager be strong now, so that when you later down the road, when you have a family of your own, you are able to demonstrate to your own children.

What mercy is with forgiveness is. And what love is once you know, the true love of God, the father. And if anything that I've learned through restore ministries is that unfortunately we. We the children of divorced parents are the ones that carry the burden. But even if that moment comes where it's not easy, just keep going, know that your parents love you.

And it is our duty to honor them and to love them, despite whatever mistake or whatever happened in the past only you can set your mind to what your future will look like and who. You decide to keep in your life, know that I'm praying for you.

It's okay. To spend time with each parent separately. I'm so glad that he said that because I think often, so many of us feel guilty about that. Maybe we are spending the holiday with mom and we feel bad that dad's on his own, or maybe he's with his family, without his kids, uh, or vice versa. And I, I know I've struggled with that.

I feel guilty about that because you know, maybe dad's alone or mom's alone in this holiday and I don't want that. So it's not easy. It's always a balancing act, but we really shouldn't feel guilty for splitting time between parents. Maybe it's not possible. Of course, for you to see one or both parents right now.

Hopefully in time, you're gonna find a way to spend time with each parent separately and not feel guilty about it. And if you need permission to do that, I give you permission.

Hi, I'm Amy, uh, from Fort worth, Texas. I'd have to say the hardest thing about the holidays for any family, really. Uh, but especially for those in broken families is the huge gap between expectations and reality. All the Thanksgiving commercials and Christmas cards and songs about sitting around an open fire are often just a fantasy for a lot of us, or at best a Mirage that everyone, or maybe just you work so hard to keep up well underneath.

It's all a painful, broken mess. My biggest tip for navigating the holidays is to focus on what they really mean to you. For me, as a Catholic, there are celebrations of faith and opportunities to take joy and works of love that our God has done for us. There are moments to eat his good food and give him thanks to humble ourselves with childlike joy, to receive him as a little child.

Once I began to put him something outside of the fallen people. I love at the center of these important moments. I started to gain some real freedom and peace in these difficult times. Begin to allow yourself to let go of what everyone else expects. The songs on the radio, the cards you're expected to send that codependent or absent parent.

You're always trying to please. And to allow yourself to enjoy these moments just for you. I spend a lot of time on airplanes as a kid flying as an unaccompanied minor between parents for the holidays. I remember being so annoyed every time the flight attendant will tell all the adults to put on your own mask first and then assist the child.

Maybe it was the irony of it, all my resentment and having to fly around the country to fulfill all the existential needs of my dysfunctional families. Every holiday. , but it was probably just me longing for an adult to put me first for once of course, now that I'm an adult, I see the logic of it. And as I've allowed myself to grow into the role of an adult among family members, I see more and more that it is okay.

That it really is essential for me to prioritize my own ability to breathe. And I'm come in ways as a child. I stifled myself to try to prop up impossible situations, but now I'm starting to let myself. To let myself let go and to let my family lie in the beds that they made, if it's impossible or imperfect, I didn't make it that way.

And my family and loved ones, as much as I love them are going to have to face some of the consequences of the situation they've made. And that's okay. It's not my job to clean up the mess. So my advice is try to set your boundaries. Know your needs and don't let, let the dysfunction drive you anymore.

Let the grace of the holys draw you in and let them be something that you celebrate for the joy of celebrating them. Not for some feeling of responsibility that you owe something to somebody else. Happy holidays.

One thing that Amy said that really stuck out to me is. It's not your job to clean up the mess. It's not your job to clean up the mess of your family. It's not your job to fix your parents' marriage. It's not your job to, to make everything right now. Often we want to, right. We want everything to be right.

And we may take on roles out of necessity, or because we just think that we have to, but the truth is it's not your responsibility. Now, of course there's a balancer because in some ways we can contribute to help heal the family. But it's important. We know that it's not our job. It's not our job as children to fix our parents or to fix the family.

And so for me hearing that it is very freeing and I hope it's freeing for you as well. I also love what she said about how we need to let go of what other people expect of us. So often our boundaries are just destroyed because we're trying to please everyone we're trying to do what makes everyone else happy when we need to really take a step back and say, okay, what's the most important thing?

What do I need to do to take care of myself or to take care of the people that I love the most? Like my kids, my spouse. And so. And so give yourself the permission to let go of what everyone else expects of you. And to always remember that it's not your job to clean up the mess.

Hi, I'm Angela wink from Highland ever since my parents started growing apart and my family started breaking. I dreaded the holidays Thanksgiving and Christmas time used to be some of my favorite times of year when I was growing up. Because it was a warm, happy time with the family. I loved so much when I turned 14.

However, my family started imploding, but every holiday after that was a nightmare screaming, fighting tension and pain. My parents' divorce was one sided. My dad was the abusive toxic one. And though my mom is human. Of course made mistakes. I saw her doing everything she could to keep her marriage and our family together, but my dad kept tearing it.

And many family members that got very angry at me for that view, but it's just the truth of my experience. Everyone's story is different, but if you're a child of divorced parents, I know that you share the hearted grief and deep wounds that comes from divorce separation and a family breaking apart. I want you to know that I feel your pain and that you're not alone.

I definitely don't pretend to have the best. I struggle with intense anxiety, self doubt, and bouts of depression and self hate after the abuse of my dad and the breaking apart of my family. But I can give you one simple tip for getting through the holidays and that is let yourself feel what you feel even if no one else does.

What I mean by that is being a child of divorce is a complicated journey. And no two stories are the same. No one, no one knows how it feels to be you and no one has the right to tell you how you should feel or act. This applies to any time of year, of course. But in my experience, it gets extra complicated around the holidays because people expect you to be happy and you may expect it of yourself.

After my dad divorced my mom and moved out and was not in my life at all. And even before. When my family started splitting apart, even if we had the miracle of no fighting during the family get together, it was never right. It just never felt right. The excitement and joy that I used to feel as a child on Christmas, Thanksgiving, birthdays, Easter was gone.

Nothing seemed to matter anymore because the pain was so intense for me. My life always revolved around my family. People mean everything to. I love presents good food, decorations, material things, and all, all that about the holidays, as much as anyone, but I love them because of the people I'm with because of the happiness and love.

I feel with people, but when tension, anger, and distance and loss was all around me, those parts of the holidays brought probably no happiness. I fought against extreme depression and felt like there was no point in trying to celebrate, but at the same time, it hurt even more to give up on the beauty of the holiday.

Because of the brokenness around me. So here's my advice to you wherever you find your heart, this holiday season, or any time of the year, let it be there. Let yourself grieve. Let yourself cry. Let yourself be angry. If you can tell someone you trust about your pain, don't feel guilty to be sad, just because of the holiday.

You have every right to feel everything you feel, but it doesn't stop. Letting yourself grieve. Remember that Christmas and the holiday season is about Jesus and he understands your heart life more than anyone can. So while letting him share your pain, try to bring meaning and healing to the holidays by doing something for him.

If you feel too depressed to celebrate the holidays for your own sake. And if getting together with family relatives is a nightmare for you. Like it is for me, celebrate with him, say an extra prayer for someone else who is hurt. Go visit someone else who's alone or aching during the holidays. Spend more time at mass, put up a little nativity scene or Christmas tree HS for baby Jesus.

This is something that has really helped me. It's simple. It doesn't always work to ease the pain, but your efforts to make the holidays, the time of celebrating Jesus and to give yourself time to heal will not be wasted. I can promise you it'll be worth it in the. God bless you. And now I'm praying for you and I'm sending you empathy and compassion to your heart.

Thank you.

One thing that a lot of people who have worked with us or in our community find a lot of comfort in is just hearing that it's okay. Not to be okay. And then, like Angela said, let yourself feel what you feel, even if nobody else does. It's okay. To feel hurt. It's okay. To feel sad about the brokenness in your family.

And it may seem counterintuitive, but in order to feel better, we actually have to let ourselves feel those yucky, messy emotions. We can't stuff 'em away. We can't ignore them. We have to let ourselves feel them. And it's only by going through those that we're able to find closure and eventually get over.

And if you've had people in your family or outside your family, kind of pressure you to feel a certain way. I'm so sorry. That's so wrong of them to do that because you feel the way that you feel. If you feel hurt by the brokenness in your family, it's okay to feel that. And no one should tell you that you should just forget about and move on.

You really do need to grieve that because it's a very. Loss. And if there's a lot of dysfunction in the family too, and maybe the, the separation was inevitable, that's a very real loss as well. And so I just know that yeah, it's okay to feel what you feel like Angela said so well, and don't do it alone. I love that reminder too.

We have to find a community or find someone that we can talk to that we can open up to that we can go to for support.

Hi, this is Laura from Denver. My husband and I have learned a couple of things in about 23 years of marriage that we hope will kind of help. Um, when we married, we had two sets of divorced parents. So right away, we thought we could do multiple celebrations in one day. And, uh, everybody would be happy. But of course that always leaves other hurt feelings because somebody always wants you to stay longer.

Somebody always wants you to come earlier. But we did the best that we could. And it, it, it did seem kind of to help a little bit, to be able to go, uh, at that time, nobody was willing to change the date of the holiday. Uh, so that was the best that we could do after we had gr uh, children. We had the first grandchildren.

Things changed a little bit. All of a sudden people were more willing to pick a day other than the exact holiday to celebrate with us. But, you know, still we were divided our time picking up the kid, the kids, and, you know, going one place or another and, uh, switching back and forth. And that all stopped when my son was, uh, two or three.

He, um, quit Christmas. He decided that after spending two days opening Christmas presents, he did not want to do Christmas anymore. And I said that had to stop. That was not acceptable to me. So we declared a new tradition. The new tradition is, uh, we actually stay home on Christmas day and anybody who wants to see the kids can see the kids in their pajamas at.

And my kids don't have to get dressed and go places. Other people have to get dressed and come see them. What really helped about that is my kids are now 17 and 19 years old. And they know that there's one day during the holidays where they're not expected to be anywhere, but here and it's relaxing. Um, so that part has worked.

What has really, really helped though, is figuring out that compromise is. What it sounds like it's only part of a possible solution. The real solution is becoming. Really excellent negotiators. Every year we maintain absolute rigid flexibility because some years it's impossible to get all people all in one place.

And some people's some, sorry, some years it's impossible to get everybody in one place at one time. And that has to be okay. We have to be okay with that. They have to be okay. And if they're not there's. So much responsibility we can take. We don't, we're not responsible for, you know, how they feel. We're only responsible for doing our best.

So here we are, 23, almost 24 years later, trying to. You know, maintain absolute rigid flexibility, and every year recalibrating what worked last year, what has worked before? What do we have going on this year? Who has to be where, um, as the kids get older, it's a little bit, you know, more challenging because they have other activities they wanna attend also.

But having that flexibility and, and developing those negotiating skills. Have really helped our family. I hope this helps somebody have a blessed Thanksgiving, a happy, um, Easter. Sorry, a happy Christmas. This works also for Easter and, and all other holidays and birthdays and everything throughout the year.

Have a great one.

I love what Lara and her husband did with inviting family over for the holidays, but not necessarily running around, trying to please everyone. I think it's a great way to set a boundary and put the ball in the family member's courts. I think what she said too, about staying somewhat flexible and being willing to negotiate without of course, compromising or just going so far that people take advantage of you, but really being able to stay somewhat flexible because things do change.

Maybe one year someone isn't able to travel or. Some condition changes where you need to be a little bit flexible. So I think, uh, it's good advice to, to stay flexible, do your best, but also remember that you can't make everyone happy. I mean, that is just good life advice because so often we try to make everyone happy, but it just doesn't work.

And I I've heard it said that when you try to make everyone happy, you'll end up making no one happy. And you're self miserable. So don't do that. Uh, remember that you can't make everyone happy. And so just do your best.

That's a wrap. Huge. Thanks to everyone who contributed to Amy. Angela, Carly, Dan Elise, GA Kate Lara, Leanne Leddy. And Steve. Thank you guys for taking time to submit your. At the beginning of the episode, I mentioned that restored has private online community. It's free. That's a place where you could speak openly about the pain and the challenges that you face it'll help you feel not so alone, especially during the holidays.

And you'll definitely be challenged to grow into a better, stronger person. You can join in three easy steps, just go to restored ministry.com/community. Again, that's restored ministry. Ministry is just singular.com. Slash community on that page, you'll fill out a form and then we'll add you to the group.

The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash three two. Again, that's restored ministry.com/ 32. We really hope that the advice today in this episode helps you to navigate. All the challenges that this time of the year brings. So you can avoid the drama and enjoy the holidays again, for me and my team at restored, we wanna wish you a happy Thanksgiving, Merry Christmas, happy new year, and whatever other holidays that you celebrate.

Thank you guys so much for making time to listen to this episode. If it's been helpful, if it's been useful for you, I invite you to subscribe. And I ask you to, to share this podcast episode with someone that you know, who could really benefit from it always. You are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#031: My Parents’ Divorce Made Me Crave Belonging | Carlie Spaulding

Seeing her parents divorce, Carlie wrestled with this question: If it didn’t work out for my parents, how can I make someone stay with me?

That led her to crave the approval of others and became whoever she needed to be to make them stay. But deep down, she desired more. She wanted to belong in an authentic way.

By listening, you’ll hear:

• How Carlie fills that desire for belonging

• How children of divorce typically ignore their own needs

• What happened when Carlie hit rock bottom in college - and how she’s so thankful she did

• Advice to any woman in an unhealthy relationship

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

Links & Resources

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• #019: How to Find Your Soulmate Without Losing Your Soul | Jason Evert

• Books:

  • Be Healed: A Guide to Encountering the Powerful Love of Jesus in Your Life

  • How to Find Your Soulmate Without Losing Your Soul: 21 Secrets for Women

• Culture Project:

  • Culture Project Event with Joey: Healing from My Parents’ Divorce

  • TheCultureProject.org

• Follow or Contact Carlie:

  • Instagram

  • Facebook

  • Email: Carlie.Spaulding@gmail.com

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

As a teenager, Carly wrestled with this question about love and relationships. If it didn't work out for my parents, How can I make someone stay in my life? How can I be good enough to make a guy stay? And that led her to really become a slave of the approval of others. She became whoever she needed to be to make them say, but deep down, she craved more than just the approval of some boy, more than just the approval of her friends.

She wanted to belong in an authentic way. And so many of us who come from broken homes can relate to her. So many of us have dealt with those exact same struggles. And so in this episode, you're gonna hear Carly talk about her desire to belong and what she did to fill that desire. We also talk about how children of divorce.

Tend to neglect their needs, their legitimate needs. We don't take care of ourselves. And part of the reason for that is because we tend to be so focused on the needs of others, especially our parents and our siblings. And you'll hear how that all played out in Carly's story and how she turned that around and began to take care of herself.

Carly shares, how she hit rock bottom in college was really a rough time for her, but she's so thankful now, looking back that she did, because it helped her to, to find the healing and the happiness that she longed for. And she also gives advice to any of you ladies out there find yourself in an unhealthy dating relationship.

She shares how she was in a really unhealthy relationship in college, but she didn't wanna leave because she felt like she was repeating the rejection. Her parents gave to each other. Carly offers a ton of wisdom. In this episode, I'm excited for you to hear it. So keep listening.

Welcome to the Restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce or separation. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 31. And I wanna tell you, before we get into the episode and I introduce our guests about a new feature on the podcast, we're opening up the show for your questions.

So we're now accepting questions from you that will feature on the show and we'll answer on the show so you can submit your questions and we'll answer them on the show. I'll answer them, or my guests will answer them. And some of the benefits you can ask, anything you want, you know, maybe you feel stuck or you're unsure how to handle the pain or the, the challenges that come from your parents' breakup.

So we can talk about that. Or maybe you're unsure of how to begin or continue healing. Maybe someone you love or you lead is going through their parents' divorce or separation, and you need to know how do I help them, whatever your question. We'll give you specific and practical answers right here on the show.

And so if you wanna submit a question, just go to restored ministry.com again, that's restored ministry. Dot com ministry is just singular slash ask Joey again, that's restored ministry.com/ask Joey. And that's just one word on that page. Just fill out a really quick form to ask your question. And then as we're able, we'll answer your question on the show today.

I have the pleasure of speaking with Carly Spalding. Carly is currently a missionary for the culture project. The culture project is a nonprofit, uh, that is working to restore our culture back to the beauty of family, sexuality, and the value of the human person coming from a broken home ever since she was five, Carly struggled, uh, along a Rocky path of understanding her worth her identity and her sexuality in light of something that is whole instead of broken, after seeking deeper healing during her college years at Texas a and M uh, she experienced what authentic love looks like and feels like for some of the first times in her life, which helped her to experience liberation.

And healing today. She shares her story with teens and schools about how they're worth more than the brokenness. They often see around them and can seek out their own healing too. And today you're gonna hear her story, which is just so beautiful and moving. And I'm really excited for you to hear from her.

She is like a Catholic Christian. So she's coming from that perspective, as they often say in the show, if that's not your background, I really challenge you to, to listen with an open mind. There's lots of good takeaways, a lot of wisdom, and a lot of hope from Carly. And so here's my conversation with Carly, Carly.

Welcome to the show. It's great to have you here. Thanks. It's awesome to be here. I'm so glad that you invited me. I'm excited to. Yeah, I love the event we did earlier this year with the culture project. And I, I wanna get a little bit info about what you're doing with them, but before we do, I wanted to dive into your story.

It's a very, when I heard your story, it was a very moving story. I wanted my audience, this audience ReSTORs audience to, to hear it. And so if you would take us to the day that your parents separated, how old were you, what exactly happened and how did you react to it? So mine happened when I was, um, five, so I was pretty young.

And, you know, I remember when I was growing up before it actually happened, my parents, um, I have very early memories of, you know, my parents like fighting and shouting and yelling at one another in a way that even as a young kid, I knew was just like so rejecting and almost like dehumanizing, I guess, to one another.

And, you know, I have early memories of, you know, sitting on my bed and when my parents would fight, I would just like cry. I didn't know what was happening. And. I knew that there is definitely some things that weren't necessarily right as a, at a, you know, as a young kid. Yeah. Overall, I don't think I have like, actually very many memories of when my parents were married at all, besides things like that, but one day, um, yeah, so my mom picked me up from kindergarten one, one day.

And you know, it's funny like at the time, um, I mean, yeah, so looking back, I actually remember exactly what I was wearing. Like to this day. I don't remember any other clothes I owned from that period of my life. I'm sure. Very few of us do, but yeah, I remember the exact thing I was wearing and where I was sitting in the car and when she was driving me home from kindergarten, I remember it was silent and at a certain point on the road, um, she asked, so how would you feel if, um, daddy and I got a divorce.

And I remember I understood the gravity of what she was asking, even though I didn't understand like what it was that she was asking, you know? And so I, I mean, I remember my heart like, started beating really fast and I remember asking like, what's divorce. And so she told me about it. She, she told me, you know, I don't remember exactly what she said, but along the lines of like, we won't be married anymore.

Like I remember I asked two questions afterwards. I remember I asked, will you still be my mommy? And she said, yes, of course. So yeah. Of something like that. And, and then I asked, okay, well, will, will daddy still be my daddy? And she said, yes, we'll just live in two separate houses. And I remember I said, fine, then that's fine.

I'd be okay with that, you know? Um, I, yeah, I remember like, just because she said like, my mom would still be my mom and my dad would still be my dad. I, I like said, oh, well then I'll be fine with that. And I think looking back, like I've often wondered, like, why did I react that way? Because I do know that it was scary.

It was a big moment. Like even just considering the fact that I remember what I was wearing and I remember exactly where we were on the road and what my mom's license plate in that car was. . And, um, I remember looking back and just thinking, almost beating myself up, like, why did I react that way? Like if I had put up more of a fight, would it have never happened?

If I had cried openly, would it had ever happened? And I think that in that moment, what I was actually feeling rather than actually being fine with, it was just the fact that a little kid has so little power. Like a little kid can only go with the flow of what the adults in her life are doing. And I remember at like, on that day, I think like a part of my, a part of my heart for sure died of, of course, to any kid, whether you're five or 25 or 55, if your parents get divorced, like a part of your heart it's of course like heartbroken, it's just the nature of what it is.

But I think also from that moment on, I remember like feeling like I was an adult from that moment on, I became like a survivor rather than a child and, you know, kind of having to like, go with the flow of like what the adults in your life are doing, what the law is saying about every other weekend and things like that.

Um, I developed a really adaptable personality. and yeah, I mean, I'm sure that this will come later on in the, in this episode. So I, I don't wanna jump too far ahead, but I remember just like growing up with such an adaptable personality that I had very little understanding of how to actually like stand up for myself or even express something that I would prefer in any situation or something that I need and I need to like speak my needs, you know?

And so, yeah, that's, it's definitely, I was only five, but it's definitely express expressed itself in so many different ways in my personality and stuff throughout my entire life. Really. So, yes, that's, that's how I heard. And that was the day that it happened. Wow. And man, that question, just so moving, like, so it's such a precious question of like, will you still be mom?

We will, daddy still be my daddy. And it, one of the, when you were speaking, I was just thinking, this is literally so burnt into you, that you remember the littlest details, even if you can't remember certain things. And it makes me think of just trauma and trauma. One definition of trauma is anything that overwhelms our natural ability to cope.

And there there's a, a trauma response that everyone has. I don't know it as well. I have friends who have their PhD in this stuff. so they, uh, but, but it's, there's certainly a way that we react to trauma. And as a little girl. You know, you only have so much capacity to, to deal with those things. And so it, it makes sense to me that you would respond in that way.

And I, you know, I could kind of sense some guilt in your voice with that. And I know you mentioned that mm-hmm , I don't think anyone else in that situation would've done any differently. I, uh, it is a common thing though, seeing that, especially when we're younger, but even when we're older, we often blame ourselves or find ourselves, we think that we could have prevented, uh, something bad from happening.

And, and that certainly is one of the stages of grieving a loss mm-hmm can I do that bargaining thinking that, well, what if I have said this or did that, and so, um, yeah, and for everyone listening and to you too, it's, there's nothing you could have done. And I, uh, I don't mean to school you or teach you in any way on that, but yeah, refreshing to hear.

And for everyone listening, who has felt that too, uh, you know, even if you blame yourself for this, it's really it's between you and your parents, what you think we maybe could have had an effect on it. The truth is. This stuff is often years in the making. Yeah. Which is really humbling. Yeah. It's true.

It's like, yeah. It's so liberating to know that for sure. You mentioned, uh, kind of being forced to grow up and having that adaptive personality. So those are some, the ways it affected you. I'm curious, speak about that, if you would. And, um, how did you see that breakup between your parents affect you in the years that followed and in other ways as well?

The biggest thing that comes to mind is I became like a tough girl. Like even like, as a little girl, like I can remember being eight years old and just being like that, this sort of like hard, outer shell, like tough girl, you know, mm-hmm, like if I fell off my bike and like skinned my knee, I like wouldn't cry because I just like something in my heart was just like so closed, you know?

And you know, my, my, my friendships were affected. Of course. Um, my best friend in elementary school was definitely, uh, she came from an intact family and. You know, definitely like the girly girl who dreams about marrying a prince and like, you know, those things and mm-hmm , I just felt like I was so much like uglier than her, or like, so for some reason, like in that hardness of my heart, like there was something in me that just wasn't good enough for that friendship.

And it's weird to think about how, like, just the breakup of your parents, which of course is like not your fault and never anyone's fault if they're a child of divorce, but it can affect even just your friendships and not just, you know, your romantic life or anything. But that was, yeah, definitely some of the earliest ways that I, I saw it play out in my life just like being so closed and I don't need anyone to take care of me.

I can take care of myself. I was for sure, like a huge, uh, I, I became a big, you know, like Tom boy and just didn't wanna show any signs of this sort of like open heart that young girls often really have. And. I think those are some of the biggest ways and, you know, growing up, it, it led to a lot of just like, yeah, different problems, not only with fear of abandonment and friendships and like fear of rejection and friendships, kind of like what I described with my best friend in elementary school.

Um, but also in terms of like you grow up and you learn how to be a girl, how to be a woman. I was so closed off from such a young age, from those types of things that I just found myself really confused and really questioning, you know, and growing up, I remember when I became a middle schooler and, you know, like desires, change, and attention changes from like having friends of the same sex usually.

And then you're kind of like wondering, like, what is all this romantic stuff like, and your interest, you know, like kind of start, uh, getting awakened, like to like the opposite sex. Am I lovely enough? Not only just, you know, for my dad, like you would ask for a little girl, but am I lovely enough for also my peers?

Like the guys that I see, you know, mm-hmm and so I think. I remember looking back. And one of the hugest questions that I had was if this didn't work out for my parents, how could I make someone stay in my life? Like, how could I be good enough? Because I, the way that I think I internalized my parents' divorce was there was something in them that just wasn't good enough.

Like there was something in my mom that simply wasn't good enough for my dad to stick around or there wasn't something good enough in my dad for my mom to stick around. And so I remember I just really wanted to know how could I be good enough to make a guy stay or even be interested in the first. And so definitely music, movies, magazines, like all those things are so saturated with what it means to love and relationships and you know, how to be interesting and all those things.

And I grew up without really like a, a faith background, um, and questions about relationships and stuff we just never talked about in my family and stuff. So one of the biggest ways that I sought it, that sort of one of the biggest ways that I sought it for that to never happen to me. Was like following the advice of the pop stars really.

And so mm-hmm I began, I think just sort of like losing my identity in a way. So I was a really, you know, kind of like smart kid growing up. I loved to read books. I read the whole Harriet Potter series before like sixth grade or something like that, you know? And I, I just like impressive yeah. Uh, thanks.

when I was in like third grade, I got a science kit or something like that for Christmas or a birthday. And I remember being, yeah, I remember thinking it was like the best gift ever, you know? Um, yeah. And so, you know, whenever I started kind of like diving in more than like having my questions answered more by Katie Perry or, uh, I mean, no offenses to Katie Perry, but I'm trying to say like, yeah, like pot music or, um, TV shows, magazines, like all of that kind of stuff.

I began just sort of like losing the things that. Made being me. And so the cycle of self rejection just like kept coming. And I really lost myself, I think all the way up until like freshman year of college or like end of high school, I really began defining myself based on how much popularity I got, because I was so obsessed with just wanting someone to stick around in my life.

So yeah. I, I mean, those are some of the biggest ways, um, I guess in summary, like the, this question of like, am I good enough for someone to actually want me to be my friend to be in a relationship romantically with me in the future? The, yeah, that's mainly, I think how it played out for me. I can relate so much to so many things you said, obviously a little bit different, but, but seriously, so many common themes there.

And what, what you mentioned about relationship? I remember I was 14. There was a girl I really liked. And I remember, you know, we, we, we talked about it at some point. It was kind of known between us that we liked each other. And I was so worried about it. Like literally, so worried about this relationship, which wasn't even anything official I was sort of like, we liked each other, that's it?

Yeah. But I was, so I was so terrified that one day it would end and again, I was just 14, just like maybe even 13. And I was just so worried, like how, like, this is gonna end, like this could end. And it caused me a lot of anxiety, even as a boy. And I, it like you, it made me think, well, how do I make it not end?

Like, what do I do to, to prevent it fer ending. And, uh, and you know, that's a question that I've taken with me through the years, and that's part of the reason that restored even started in the first place. But so I'm, I'm totally with you there that the hard exterior as well. I think so many of us. We internalize that belief that we're not good enough or that we're on our own.

We kinda have to figure life out on our own a hundred percent because yeah, because no, one's really gonna have our back. So if, if I don't take care of myself, then nobody's gonna take care of me. And I certainly can't trust anyone because the people who I trusted the most, my parents, uh, that, you know, maybe in one way or another made me feel like I couldn't trust them anymore.

Mm-hmm and I know I experienced that when my parents separated, it was dramatic and traumatizing and, uh, you know, dad left and felt like I couldn't trust him. And mom, you know, kicked him out. So I felt like I couldn't trust her. And so again, felt alone, alone, alone on my own. So, so many things you said abandonment rejection totally, totally resonate with, uh, with my experience as well.

And so many people I've talked to who come from broken homes. Mm. Wow. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. It's so good to know that this is my experience and I felt so alone and so different from so many other kids at school, but it's almost like, you know, divorce is like, unfortunately like way more common than I think we would ever want it to be and it's so I think like healing, like part of our healing to know that there's people out there who like understand, you know, in a way that maybe others from broken, uh, intact families wouldn't necessarily understand.

So thanks for sharing. Totally. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I found that healing myself and I think you're right. And. That's uh, a really one of the key steps in healing and building friendships and understanding that we're not alone. And Dr. Um, Bob shoots, he says that he's a man. Yeah. He says in one of his books, he said that almost at a, at the root of almost every wound is a deprivation of love.

And that's especially true when with the breakdown of our families. And so in order to heal that wound, we need, uh, an abundance really of authentic love mm-hmm . And especially in friendships, not just in romantic relationships, but in friendships mm-hmm . And so, uh, for me, that's been incredibly healing and sounds like it's been the same for you and yeah, I'm, I'm glad we're having this conversation to hopefully give other people hope who maybe feel alone.

Like there's no one like them as you did when you were, uh, you know, in, in school. Yeah, definitely. That's awesome. I'm curious when it comes to coping, you know, dealing with all of this. You mentioned some things already, but I'm curious, how did you cope over some of the healthy and the unhealthy ways, uh, of coping with the, maybe the pain and the problems that come along with your parents separating and divorcing?

Um, thanks for asking. Um, this is so awesome. I , I just wanna say right now that this is, um, a gift for me to talk about and just like share with this. I think the first thing. Yeah. Yeah. I think the first thing that comes to mind with how I coped was of course seeking that attention, that sort of feeling of anti abandonment.

for lack of a better word. I guess the, the actual word would be like communion almost. Um, and closeness with someone that I felt. I felt like maybe didn't exist or, but I knew that my heart was just like really screaming out for it. And so, yeah, I think, would you say, would you say, sorry to cut you off, I'm just, this is so fascinating.

Would you say it was something, uh, like with the word belonging? Yes. In another word to use. Oh, completely belonging, for sure. Thanks for, thanks for, uh, for, for, uh, yeah, sharing that word because that's funny because I that's been a big word in my life and maybe we could talk about that later, but it, throughout my young adulthood, even after graduating college, I remember belonging whenever I thought about what I really wanted was so high on my list more than I ever thought I, I needed.

Um, so yes, I really was, um, seeking belonging. And as I kind of mentioned earlier, like I kind of like stifled or outright quit a lot of the hobbies that I just really loved. I, I, um, For the sake of having belonging and in a way, like, you know, excellence being the smart kid, being good at music like piano, like those things in a way, certain types of excellence, like set you apart from others, you know, like Olympic athletes, aren't the average, Joe.

I was never an Olympic athlete, but I'm just trying to highlight like excellence. And so the ways that I felt particularly like I was good at something excellent at something, I actually felt more than any other kind of like healthy accomplishment that I could ever feel from that. I actually felt isolation from that.

Hmm. And in seeking a abandon or in seeking belonging, I so much desire to just fit in and be like everyone else. And so that was at the expense of a lot of the hobbies that I had worked, um, on for a long time, such as piano. Like I, you know, I loved music and. There were times where I intentionally wanted to get a B in a class, even though I could get an a, just because it would make me feel like I was less of a freak and people would want to be around me.

And so it almost became like I wanted more. Of a, like a mediocrity in a way. I hope that doesn't sound like too much, like I'm trying to do my own horn or anything like that. That's not the case. No, no, no. That's not what I'm trying to get at at all. But yeah. And so, um, as I, as I shifted into high school, I think the way that I had kind of coped in an unhealthy way was just like almost being a, like a puppy dog or like a, a slave to other people's approval of me.

And that was reflected in the way I acted, the way I dressed, the way that I carried myself and it made me it, like I started doing things that I didn't necessarily wanna do hanging out with people I didn't necessarily wanna hang out with, um, just seeking that validation. And so I think that's definitely one of the unhealthy ways that I coped along with sort of, again, like in the midst of that in hanging out with those types of people and getting that kind of attention.

Especially, uh, you know, going into high school when you start dating and that's a whole nother story, but that's not the kind of attention that we actually really, really crave mm-hmm . And so it was definitely, um, a cycle. And I think that, yeah, that was one of the main ways that I found a coping strategy, at least the best way I could, but I knew pretty quickly that I wasn't really working out for me.

And it led me for sure. In, in college, I had just definitely like some huge moments where those unhealthy coping strategies just like totally, that kind of broke off and it was gradual and there were some amazing moments, but in college, like that's when it really started to turn around. But it, I think all of this kind of snowballed into a sort of almost like rock bottom moment.

And I remember the exact moment when I was 19 years old and. The things that I had done, that I was not proud of in the ways that I felt like I had totally put my identity, the things that I loved, the things that little, those little things that just make someone you like, the things that made me mean I had kind of sacrificed it at this stupid alter of like superficial belonging.

And it really became sort of unbearable when I was 19. And I just sort of, kind of hit that rock bottom moment. And honestly, I'm really thankful for it because it led me to seek healing through, you know, through, through the church, through, through, um, counseling, through friends. And I, yeah, my life looks totally different than it, than it did five years ago.

Um, so I'm really thankful for that. that's beautiful. How, how, uh, I wanna jump to that. How, how does your life look different now after you've gone through that healing process? And I wanna talk to you also about kind of the things you did to heal what you alluded to right there. But, um, but yeah. How is your life different now than it was, you know, during that time?

I definitely noticed that I still, um, have resistances, um, for sure, like sure. Yeah. Like even, you know, hanging out with a married couple that has a lot of kids and they all seem so happy. There's a part of me that feels like I just don't belong in this picture right now. You know, or like, I, I'm not a part of this culture, this family culture, you know, for as long as I can remember, I've been a survivor, not a part of like wholesome family culture, you know?

are you kidding? Totally. But . Yeah. And so it's definitely still a process and I still notice those little things in my heart, but my life is so different. I think that. After receiving so much just genuine, authentic conversation with people who really care people have cried over me. When I told my story to them and in, you know, professional settings like counseling, I was able to really walk through and face with bravery, the details of a lot of those memories and situations growing up.

Wow. And realize that when you face them and when you speak them out loud with someone who is attentive and just looking you in the eye, it becomes so much less scary. And you, you kind of, I think that I, what I experienced was I gained like a certain power over them, like emotions and situations can seem so powerful in that we're just powerless in the midst of those.

Emotions, but it's really liberating and empowering. I think at least in my life, it was, I was in counseling for two years in college, and a lot of those situations are brought up in situations with other romantic relationships that went badly. Um, leading up to that point, um, as a result of course, and my parents' divorce, I would say now my now I think that I particularly have an open heart that I haven't experienced, I think in really all my life.

And I think that, you know, it's funny cuz as I speak, I'm, I'm living with five other people. And before this podcast I actually asked if they would like pray over me and they did and I felt so loved. And it's just those little instances where I ask like, Hey guys, um, can you encourage me right now? Or.

just ways that I think that I'm being loved by friends in a way that's authentic belonging and it's healing even to this day, my heart is still being opened. So my life looks very different and I'm really thankful for it. That's beautiful. And would you say you're more at peace now than you were in the past?

Definitely. Yeah. More at peace for sure. And I think more at peace with who I am in my identity and even in my weaknesses, like, yes, I have a broken family and some people would consider that a defect, but it's a peace that I don't have to be. I don't have to really hide as much. Um, I feel like I don't have to hide anymore and that's, that's a gift it's very much more peaceful and.

Absolutely. And you, you touched on identity. But one thing that I was thinking is that so often those of us who come from broken homes, we base our identities off of the needs of others. Mm. And so we kind of become what they need us to be. And that in the end, that leaves us very confused. Like, who am I, like you said, and truly can put us on this quest of trying to find the answer to, to that question.

Mm. But, you know, especially when you're going, you know, with visitation happened between two different homes, being one person for dad, one person for mom, you know, around this, these friends, I'm this type of person around these friends, I'm this type of person. It's almost like we have multiple personalities, at least a lot of people talk about it like that.

And, uh, it's, it's something that I think, you know, as you're describing, when you are around people that make you feel loved, that make you feel that you belong, you end up starting to realize who you really are as a person. And, and there's more, you know, theology. I'm sure we can get into, but there's, there's a beauty to, to that community portion.

And that, you know, we, we kind of say it in passing here and there on this show. Um, the, but we can't really emphasize it enough and we have emphasized how important it is to be around people who can love you to be part of a community that actually gets you. So I've seen it in my own life and it seems like you have as well.

Hmm. That's beautiful. I completely relate to what you said about, you know, one person for mom, one person for dad. And then I was one person for my high school and one person for like other clubs or whatever. But yeah, I didn't know that I, I never made that connection. Children of divorce often. Find their identity and the needs of others.

That's completely my experience as well. And so thanks for sharing. Yeah, absolutely. Just to go further with that. What, what often happens too, is we tend to neglect our own needs, our legitimate needs, you know, not things that we just want or something that's more superfluous. It's actually like legitimate needs, like things that we need to do to take care of ourselves.

And that can lead us down so many different paths, whether it's pornography or some other addiction. Mm-hmm because we're essentially kind of dry inside. It's like, I need to be fed so to speak. and I'm not feeding myself or I'm not making sure that I'm fed and I'm letting other people maybe take advantage of me or, you know, whatever the case is, I am empty.

Therefore I'm going to search out junk food to fill me in whatever way that I can. Right. And man, that just leaves that, that just leaves to so many, so many problems that just compound on each other over the years. That's so true. Wow. That's really awesome. I am thinking of books that I've read that.

Describe that. And I always related, but figured it was just a universal, you know, human experience and it is. But I never made that connection about my own life. So thanks. That's really awesome. Actually. No, for sure. You're teaching me through your story. So this is, this is beautiful. I'm glad we could talk me too.

I wanted to, I wanted to get into, uh, kind of some tactics on healing, like some practical things that, that you did. You mentioned counseling mm-hmm we talked about friendship. What were some other things, maybe the, the biggest things that helped you to find healing to go from where you were to where you are now?

I think that whenever. I you, you were mentioning, um, that whenever we feel empty and we need to be filled that we often turn towards like things, whether it's a substance or, um, maybe even a relationship or just ways that we find that fill that we need, even though it's junk food, getting rid of those things, um, was I think kind of step one.

Yeah, I think so. When I was in high school, I was in a, a long term relationship that lasted into the beginning of college. And, um, that had the end, by the way, it was going and also had experienced like, yeah, other, um, addictions of my own that made me feel as if I was kind of dehumanizing myself. And that of course was a long struggle as well.

And just like making steps to actually get better from that. And I, and I also, it wasn't just me because I think at that moment, like I was so blind to what I was even doing. And so blind to just like my state that, you know, I thought that there was nothing really that wrong. Maybe if there was something wrong, there was something just inherently wrong with me.

Um, and so I don't think I even had the capacity to really seek out my own healing, but there was, it was actually a conversation with my mom over the phone in college where she was, we were talking and she actually began sounding really exasperated. She was raising her voice. And I remember her saying Carly, you've got to take care of yourself.

And I never knew that someone would actually get angry over the injustice of someone not caring for themselves because it showed me how much my mom cared for me. And I think as a kid of a child of divorce, like. We kind of were saying earlier, like, it feels like we are the ones to look after ourselves because no, we can't count on anyone else being there for us.

Yeah. So that was a big moment for me. You were talking about, we kind of ignore our own needs and it had even become that to the point of my hygiene. I would, yeah. Just like ignore my, um, appearance. I would ignore even my clothing, like anything that would make me feel like beautiful or good or confident in the things that I would wear or the way that I would present myself, I shied away from, I totally ignored my own needs and called it virtue.

And so I think that moment of just like, you've got to take care of your. Was a big wake up call for me. And so I actually found a lot of healing in a couple of books about self-care that my mom had sent me. Um, I thought this is really stupid, but I actually packed open the book and found a lot of just permission to be what I would call quote unquote selfish during that point in my life.

And that was very healing. And I sought to tell someone about not only my parents' divorce, but the ways that I had sought those things I was looking for in that, that relationship and in, you know, the behaviors I was in. And I said, I just gotta tell someone about it. And so I did this person that I told was completely unfazed.

It was actually, um, A priest at the Catholic center in, um, where I went to school, I went to Texas a and M and um, nice. Yeah, yeah. Giga Maggie's . Yeah. Um, so it wa I actually walked into a confessional. I was not Catholic at the time, told a priest. He was so unfaced by what I said in a good way. He didn't, he didn't blow up and say, oh, oh my gosh.

I'm so what, sorry, like, you know, exactly like, or like yeah. And, or like, you know, cause even though maybe that would've made me feel either really loud or really rejected, depending on how much he reacted um, it would've still made me feel like a freak in some ways. So yeah, I think that that was one of the biggest steps.

And then a, again, I didn't necessarily have the capacity to seek my own healing, but part of that sort of rock bottom experience was an, an unrelated situation had to do with yeah. Uh, I had a good friendship with a man and he had expressed that he had, uh, like interest in me romantically and I preferred to just stay friends.

And the way that that reaction happened was actually very scary, um, for my safety, for my family, for just me in general, as someone who cared about him, you know, he was college age, you know, um, a young man , but, um, Yeah, just the way he reacted with was with so much, self-rejection so much, uh, pain, harassment.

He dropped outta college. I felt responsible for his pain and wow. Felt like, wow, I really don't do anything romantic. Correct. My family doesn't do it. Correct. I'm never doing this again. Mm-hmm and it was particularly that really tough experience that actually drove me to a counseling office rather than just, you know, my parents' divorce alone.

And so, yeah. Um, I, anyways, I've actually become really thankful for the situations that weren't necessarily me like that conversation with my mom or that situation with that, with that guy. Um, that really drove me into like a deeper healing than I would've ever thought possible. And yeah, I think that the courage and the compassion of those who walked with me over a long period of time, Really modeled for me, faithfulness and that faithfulness and their fidelity to, to me and just my healing and my own heart was all I could have ever asked for in terms of healing.

Incredible. Wow. So such a story. I, yeah, so many things to talk about and touch on, but yeah, that relationship that you were in, sometimes I've realized too, and we hear this often the worst situations in our lives can set us on the, the right path actually can and can move us often, move us to, to take action where we maybe wouldn't have, or even couldn't have, like you were saying, if we didn't have the capacity to, to seek our own healing, to seek taking care of ourselves.

And I love the story about self-care like with your mom, self-care, it's like such a corny term. yeah, I know I'm a pretty manly dude and I like don't like talking about it, but it, the concept is so important. That we do need to care for ourselves and it's not selfish. I've had this conversation with people.

Often people, especially who come from a religious background may think that loving themselves is somehow selfish and bad. Yeah. But the truth is like you said so well, um, in a way we need to put that first and only by doing that, can we truly love others? You know, that's, we do that for the sake of loving others, but we have to start with ourselves.

And one thing that you just reminded me of when you're sharing your story about what your mom said was, you know, our actions confirm our beliefs about ourselves. And so. When, you know, you're not taking care of yourself in so many words, you know, in so many ways, whether you thought this or not, or maybe it's not true in your case, but in many cases, it's almost like, oh, I'm not worth taking care of, I'm not worth, you know, taking care of my appearance.

I'm not worth wearing, um, you know, clothes that reflects my actual dignity, my worth as a person. Mm. And, and, you know, these things may seem trivial on the surface and we may not think about 'em in these ways, but our actions truly do, uh, you know, confirm the belief that we have about ourselves, whether those are unhealthy, uh, or, or healthy completely.

That's so true. And you're so right. And I think that, yeah, looking back, like the actions that I had and those things, even though I didn't realize it was evidence of what I was feeling inside. And I think that if I were to meet someone who was like me five years ago, I would understand so much of how they were feeling and, and what they were going through.

Yeah. That's so true. Yeah. And I I'm so glad you were able to break three from that relationship because I've heard this mm-hmm so often, um, it seems it's not always the case, but it seems in a lot of cases, the guys are in like a rough spot. And I remember, you know, hearing stories, something like this, where the guy says, oh, if you break up with me, I'll kill myself.

Like really serious stuffs. And it could be hard for a girl. Or if it, maybe it's the guy in, in certain situations to truly draw the boundary and say, actually, this is really unhealthy, not just for me, but for you too, you need help. We can't be together. So I'm glad you had the courage to, to break free from that instead of, you know, maybe going along in an attempt to help that person from spiraling down.

Yeah, I know. And I, I remember, you know, as we said before, like we kind of find our identity and the needs of others and. The way that I would describe the situation to, you know, let's say my roommates as it was going on, they would say like, you just need to tell him he needs psychiatric help. He needs to find help from other people.

He can't, you can't help him. And I remember thinking that that was so hard because I know you have mentioned this before in a, in another, um, in another interview that, um, children of divorce are often hyper loyal also. And so it was kind of that mix of like, he has a need. I usually find my identity in others' needs and I like desire to be loyal in his, in his time of mean, and I felt like I was repeating the rejection that my parents gave each other whenever I was, you know, quote unquote, like abandoning him in his time of need.

But in reality, it simply just wasn't a healthy situation. And that was a huge moment for me because it actually. Broke the cycle of those things. And, you know, and even, you know, talking to someone, talking to a counselor about it became that sort of self-care that, um, I had never actually given myself. Um, wow.

Yeah. Yeah. That's so insightful. That's so insightful. And I just, I wanna give you a chance right now to speak to any women, any girls out there who are in the case that you were in, what would you say to them where maybe the guys kind of dragging them along and he's in a really rough spot and they have this, you know, instinct to, to care, to help mm-hmm to take care of their needs.

What would you say to them in, in that situation? What should they do? What I would say is your compassion and your empathy and your intuition to others' emotions as a woman is so good. And it's not a curse. And even though. You might be in a bad situation where you're feeling used or where you're feeling used.

Like, like you're someone's savior and you only exist to bring someone happiness. Like that empathy that you feel is still inherently like good. And I just, yeah. Wanted to say to any woman who might be in a situation like that is you're made for warmth and it's okay to recognize your own inner greatness and your own potential.

And it's okay to do things that reflect that. And you don't have to be a slave to that anymore. You don't have to be a slave to what a man thinks of you, because honestly, a guy who might, you might be in a sit in a situation like that with is probably only gonna give you a superficial approval and you deserve an approval, not just an approval, but an adoration, an admiration, and a love that is so much deeper.

Then simply just being used for a guy's emotional gratification or for him to feel more like a man or for him to feel less depressed or something like that, not to minimize his struggle, but in fact, he needs real help. He needs someone that can give him what he actually needs, and it may seem unfortunate in that moment, but that person is not you.

And I hope that that's actually liberating. And I hope that if you do act on that and you break up with him or you tell him that he needs to see in a professional and that you are not the girl for him, I hope that you can feel the courage and the support through that. It's difficult to do it. But, um, you're worth it.

And if no one else is affirming, you're worth allow me to do it because I know it's difficult for us to do it ourselves, that you are worth a love that is authentic. That gives to you, instead of takes from you, um, you are worth a love that is so much deeper and where you can feel like you actually have a backbone and actually have an identity.

And. It's possible. Beautiful. Wow. So, so good. So encouraging. I love what you said about, you know, recognizing your own greatness, but then also pointing them in the right direction, giving them the proper, um, support, sending them to someone who can give them the proper support. And you know, it, like you said, in your story setting, those boundaries can be scary, but it's, it's good.

It's worth it. And it's better for you and them in the long run. Mm. Yeah. And I think it's important to remember that too, but there's more about this. If, uh, ladies, you wanna hear Jason Everett meant talk about some of these issues in episode 19, he talks about, uh, his book, how to find your soulmate without losing your soul.

And we touch on breaking up and boundaries and things like that in that episode, but Carly's so. Yeah. That's awesome to hear. Yeah. So good. I love this show. I love your podcast. thank you. no, I love having you here. You're you're great. So, thanks. There's so much we could talk about we're we're getting toward the end now.

Okay. And I just wanted to ask, we already talked a lot about relationships, but, um, what else that maybe you haven't talked about yet? Uh, have you seen, how else have you seen the effects, uh, of your parents' divorce affect your romantic relationships? I think that it has affected it also in positive ways, not just negative.

Um, sure. As I, as we kind of touched on a little bit before, like it makes you very loyal to someone and yeah. As also, you know, that can lead you into some situations that aren't actually good for you. But I think that having a fidelity to someone, um, is a good thing. Of course. And I would, yeah, I would say that's a big way that it's affected my relationships.

But another way I think is. I think that I, most of the guys that I have dated in the past come from intact families and a way that it affected me was almost feeling like I could never fit in with his family. That I would not only be an outsider, of course, cuz I'm the girlfriend, but also like an outsider in the sense of like, I felt so closed when they would have board game nights or I felt so closed whenever they would have conversations and healthy conversations as a family that I just felt so separated from again, felt so separated from that sort of like family culture, you know?

Yeah. It was so foreign to you. Yeah. It was so foreign to me and I received it with a lot of curiosity, but also a lot of fear because. For most of my life, you know, my, I think my first relationship, I was like 16 or 17 or something like that. So for the first like, or for, for the 11 years I had been just myself and my mom and I had just been this independent.

I don't need anyone kind of person. And so now I feel like I'm kind of almost relearning how to, in a way, be a daughter or like relearning how to, um, interact with an attacked, married couple, like when I would be with, uh, my boyfriend's parents, you know? So yeah, I think that there was a part of me that was like, how is one supposed to act in this situation?

um, but in the relationship itself. Um, we did already touch on a lot. I think that that's kind of, most of the things that I can really think of right now. Sure. And I think that I had to learn to stand up for my own dignity rather than seek it to be affirmed. In someone else. Um, cuz that's often how I did respond.

So many of us are there and I think there there's a tendency in men and women to do that. But I think especially in women, um, because you're so relational and that's such a beautiful thing and yeah, I love that. You um, yeah, you just affirm that good, um, motherly nature, that good caring nature. That's so core to femininity, which is such, such a beautiful thing.

In, in closing out the show. Mm-hmm what words of encouragement Carly would you give to, to someone, a young person who just feels broken. They feel stuck in life because of, you know, the brokenness in their family because of the divorce or the separation and things have come from it. What encouragement would you give to.

I would say, be patient with yourself, go easy on yourself. I think in all of those sort of moving parts and the overwhelming, uh, the overwhelm of a parent's divorce and a family of breakdown, and we kind of talked about how a wound means it's past your ability to cope. So of course it's overwhelming. And then on top of that, your, it feels like your social situation is changing.

The way that you see yourself is changing the way you might imagine your future marriage to go, like all of those things. And there's so many scary and moving parts and being a young adult, being a teen is already scary enough. And so if you're able to, I mean, I'm placing my hand on my heart right now, and I'm just like saying, like be patient with yourself and be kind to yourself and give yourself the benefit of the doubt.

It's so easy to be a perfectionist. I know that firsthand, but at the same time there, no one's ever perfect. But you can still be loved in the midst of your imperfections. You may struggle with a wound of rejection feeling like a friend or a potential, you know, romantic partner would never love you if there was a flaw in you, but nothing could be further from the truth.

And you deserve to be loved in not in spite of your flaws, but like in your flaws. And that's a good thing. So you're not disqualified from the love that you desire and you are not destined for the same path that your parents went down. You are worthy and it's okay. If you have to go slower, it's okay. If you are slower to trust, be patient with yourself and you deserve for others to be patient with you too.

I think that's one of the biggest things I would say. Beautiful. Beautiful. I love that. And did you wanna say anything else about belonging? I know you mentioned that earlier in this show. Mm. That being such an important theme in your life. So I just wanna give you a chance to, if there's any final words related to belonging, anything you wanted to share as well.

Yeah, it's funny because we seek it. We all do. I, and you know, it was probably a result of my parents' divorce. Like again was like, so seeking it, but something I've like a big question I had in my heart was, you know, could you belong, but still be your unique self cuz uniqueness to me felt like something bad, you know, , you can't belong if you're different but something I'm learning just like through the work that I do now.

And the people that I'm with now is that you can be unique and still belong. Still don't really understand it, but I do feel it. I do live it and know it and that's awesome. Whenever I wanted to pick a college. I wanted a college that was full of, you know, traditions and history and belonging. And I've always even just little things like I've always loved uniforms.

mm-hmm whenever I had my first job, I had a name tag in a uniform and I felt like it was the coolest thing ever because it signifies belonging. And that it's so funny that something so little, like my love for feeling cool in uniforms , um, points to that points to that desire and it, yeah. Um, it wasn't until college, whenever I was getting ready to leave college and graduate where I felt just, again, this deep sense of, I just still want to belong.

So that's been a big theme in my life. Yeah. It really has. Um, it's, it's exciting to journey with it and to, to know myself there. So thanks for asking. It's beautiful. Yeah. I, and I just wanna challenge everyone listening right now. So many of us who come from broken homes tend to be lone Rangers. We tend to just be on our own.

We deal a lot of us deal with loneliness. That's one of the most common struggles that we have. Mm-hmm . And so my challenge for you guys right now, and I know Carly would say the exact same thing is find a few friends and really invest in them. Some good people, people who are virtuous, they have good habits in their life start seeking what is good.

You maybe would want to be like them, find people like that and really invest in those friendships and do it gradually. Of course, you're not gonna go up to them and say, Hey, would you beat my best friend that they maybe a little freaked out at that, but really invest, invest in just a few people to where you will feel like you belong.

And really that's one of the antidotes to loneliness is. Feeling like you belong. And so if you didn't feel that in your family, if you don't feel that right now, you can, but it may take some work and it's not necessarily up to someone else to come in and rescue you though. I know how nice that would be.

And I know a lot of that of a lot of us desire that, but truly to, to do some of the work yourself, and then you can experience what Carly just described, how maybe you can't describe it. Maybe you can't explain it, uh, but you'll feel it you'll experience it. And so that's my challenge in closing out the show is really seek out those good friendships, build those good friendships.

And if you, if you want a great friendship, you really have to be a great friend. And so be there for your friends. Support them love them. And, uh, again, go below the surface. It's so easy to stay in the surface. So easy to just always be presenting our Instagram self, but really go underneath that, get to, you know, the real issue is that people are dealing with not necessarily to be their savior, but to, to walk with them and to be there in the midst of all that.

And I know as Carly was saying, I've experienced that too with some really close, good friends of mine, that sense of belonging, which I didn't feel for so long, uh, in my life because of what happened in my family. So that's the challenge. Guys, go build those friendships. Uh, Carly, I wanna give you a chance, uh, the culture project.

I love the culture project. Tell us a little bit about the culture project. What are you doing with them? Yeah. Give us a little update. Yeah. Yeah. It's so funny. Cuz the mission sort of, of the nonprofit and the culture project is. Um, in a way, like restoring a culture where, um, families are the basis of society, um, sort of that like foundational unit of society.

And, you know, I basically, what we do is I, I tell teens and, and kids what authentic love is. And I, I tell them about how to get it. And it's funny because, you know, like I said, it's an ongoing process. In some ways I feel so disconnected from this mission. Like, why am I the person to work for an organization where we're rebuilding a family culture?

Like what , but also it's, um, yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's a gift and for sure, a huge part of my healing, ongoing healing, and I meet kids every day where they come from similar situations as I do. And they've asked me, how did you heal from this? And they've asked me, how do I. You know, get the love that I desire in life.

So it's, it's awesome. We get to learn all about love and psychology and healing and what it means to be human, all these amazing things. I'm really, really grateful for it. So yeah, we, we, uh, of course, you know, our non-profit and you can look us up if you wanna know more, but it's, it's a, it's a great gift to be a part of it.

That's beautiful. And what ages are you typically working with and you're going into schools, giving talks primarily. Is that right? Uhhuh? Yeah. Yeah. We are public speakers and we usually talk from anywhere from sixth grade to 12th grade. So teens, some young adults in college, we go to colleges and give, um, some public speaking presentations about dating.

We, uh, have a couple of different talks on various subjects. Um, anything from just your identity worth things in our society that don't uphold our identity in worth. To dating to love, like just all of those different aspects that all tie together. Yes. So it's exciting. Yeah, I'm super excited for you. And thanks.

I hope that everything goes well, you guys have an incredible mission. I would just say you kind of value something you've lost even more. And so I think in a way you maybe can offer more than you think in terms of building up that culture of the family and marriage and things like that. So you are certainly are, you are where you need to be, and I know you're gonna do great things.

So really, yeah. Thrilled to know you happy to have you on the show and if people want to, um, follow you and connect with you, how can they do that? Yeah, you can for sure. Follow me, um, you know, normal social media, stuff like that. If you wanna look more on the culture project, we have a YouTube page with tons of video.

If you are yeah. Seeking to get plugged in into what does authentic love mean? Stuff like that. Feel free to email me. I think that I, I don't know if you can put my email on the website or something like that, but we'll love. Yeah. Yeah. We'll throw it in the show notes. Yeah. If you want it now, then people maybe will remember it, but if not, yeah.

We'll turn in the show notes. Yeah, you can. I can say it. It's uh, Carly it's spelled C a R L I E dot spading S P a U L D I N G. gmail.com. Yeah, I would love to just, uh, talk, I don't know, meet fellow, um, people that come from similar backgrounds as us, as we, as we said before, it's already such a healing gift to connect in community with people.

I love it. Thank you so much, Carly and folks, if you are, you know, a leader in any capacity and you wanna bring the culture project in to speak, I couldn't recommend them enough. So go on their website. It's restore culture.com, ours.org. That wrong it's dot org, or you can go to the culture projects.org, both work the culture projects.org.

Okay. I'm sorry. I was writings the old year. All done. Yeah. Yeah. So guys go there, uh, bring them in to speak. They're awesome. Articulate, beautiful people. I, I feel like they're everyone I look at in the culture project is just like so happy and so joyful. Aw. Yeah. even just the presence, even if you didn't say anything beautiful and good.

Uh, it is just awesome. And then your content is excellent as well. So keep with the great work, Carly, thank you so much for, for being here for what you do. Thank you. Thank you, Joey. This was a gift. I appreciate it so much. Love your podcast and happy to be on it. I don't know about you, but so much of what Carly said really resonated with me, especially the part where she gave encourage.

Uh, for those of us who, who come from broken homes, I found that to be incredibly hopeful and, and really useful as well. And if you wanna share your story with restored, we'd love to hear it. We'd love to hear it. And some of the benefits of sharing your story, uh, one of the steps to, to heal is actually to reflect on your story, to, to think back on your story and are very active way.

And that's actually healing on a neuro biological. Level and studies have also shown that people who write, not just think, but they write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less suppressed. They're less anxious, they're healthier, happier, and so on. And sharing that story with someone else, uh, is actually super healing too.

Again, on a neurobiologic level. It's good for your brain. It makes you healthier and it can make you happier too. And also sharing your story can give guidance and hope to, to other people who are struggling. Maybe they're going through the same things that, that you went through. And so it can really give them a lot of hope and a lot of guidance.

If you wanna do that, just go to restored ministry.com/story again, restored ministry. singular.com/story on that page. You'll just fill out a quick form. Uh, that'll guide you to tell a short version of your story, and then we'll take that and we'll turn it into an anonymous blog article. So go ahead and share your story today.

We'd love to hear it. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 31. Again, that's restored ministry.com/three one. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, please subscribe and share this episode with someone you know, who could use it. Always.

Remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

Love and Relationships Series

2 minute read

The biggest negative effects from our parents’ divorce are experienced in our romantic relationships.[1] Why? Because we lack a roadmap for love. We’ve seen a broken model of love and marriage. So when it’s our turn, we feel lost, afraid, and struggle in numerous ways.

Thankfully, you’re not alone. We are bringing you a roadmap. In our Love & Relationships podcast series, we give actionable tips and expert advice on how to find and build authentic love.

You are not doomed to repeat your parents’ relationship. You can write your own story. Pick an episode below to start the journey.

Dating & Singleness

6 Tips to Conquer Your Fear of Love

The Dating Blueprint: What Women Want But Won't Tell Men | Jason Evert

How to Find Your Soulmate Without Losing Your Soul | Jason Evert

Navigating Singleness | Sarah Swafford

How to Build Love That Lasts: The 5 Love Languages

Engagement & Wedding

Tips for Engagement, Wedding, and 1st Year of Marriage - Part 1 | Brigid Pontarelli

Tips for Engagement, Wedding, and 1st Year of Marriage - Part 2

Marriage

Men, Women, and the Mystery of Love | Dr. Edward Sri

Viral Facebook Post: What if We Spoke Well of Marriage? | Sarah Jarrard

Tips for Building a Great Marriage from an Amazing Couple - Part 1 | Joe & Maria Keller

Tips for Building a Great Marriage from an Amazing Couple - Part 2 | Joe & Maria Keller

Healing Broken Marriages

Stories of Impossible Marriages Redeemed | Leila Miller

How to Heal Your Broken Marriage | Greg & Julie Alexander

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Listen to the series gradually. You’ll receive one episode per week. Just fill out the form below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive a free eBook on curing loneliness. Unsubscribe anytime.

---

[1] The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce: The 25 Year Landmark Study

#030: How to Heal Your Broken Marriage | Greg & Julie Alexander

How do you heal a broken marriage? We tackle that topic with two experts, Greg and Julie Alexander.

They’ve helped over 5,000 seriously struggling couples in the past 20 years. Their success rate? 98%.

By listening, you’ll hear:

• How Greg & Julie healed their marriage after both cheated on each other

• What they offer struggling couples

• Specific advice, such as: What’s the first step to rescue a broken marriage? How can a couple heal from infidelity? What should you say to help a friend who is struggling in their marriage?

Plus, enter our random giveaway to win the book! We’re giving away 3 copies. Details at the end of the episode.

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

Buy the Book

Marriage 911: How God Saved Our Marriage (and Can Save Yours, Too!)

Links & Resources

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Get marriage help from Greg & Julie Alexander

  • Website: TheAlexanderHouse.org

  • Marriage Disciples Program

  • Facebook: The Alexander House

• Books & Research:

  • The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce: The 25 Year Landmark Study

  • Familiaris Consortio

  • Gaudium et Spes

  • Catechism of the Catholic Church: 1601-1608

  • Malachi 2:16, “For I hate divorce.”

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

How do you heal a broken marriage? That's the question we tackled today with two experts, Greg and Julie Alexander that have helped over 5,000 couples in the past 20 years, their success rate, 98%. And these weren't just couples who were struggling with minor things. Many times they were struggling with very serious issues and they were on the brink of divorce and Greg and Julie say that typically when they work with couples who are struggling, it just takes four to five sessions to turn things around.

One couple. Could you not? They had done 18 years of counseling yet. It only took three sessions with Greg and Julie to learn more about life and marriage than the entire 18 years of counsel. Incredible. So by listening to this, you're gonna get a bunch out of it. You're gonna hear their story. You're gonna hear how they hit rock bottom in their marriage.

They actually both were cheating on each other that came to light in a very dramatic way. You'll hear about that in the show. And obviously they felt hopeless. They felt like divorce was inevitable and they felt fake. Because a lot of people on the outside didn't know about what was happening in their marriage.

They thought they had a good marriage. Uh, when in reality it was just a complete mess. Thankfully they met a guide, they met someone who helped them really rediscover the whole purpose of marriage and, and how to build a, a great marriage. And now their marriage is completely different. It's happy, it's joyful.

It's not perfect, but it's so much better. And so they'll explain what happened after that and how they got to that point. We'll also talk about how they actually help struggling spouses. They help marriages that are in really bad shape. They have a program that they offer to, to help couples who are in really rough situations.

We also get their advice on various topics, such as what's the first step that, that a couple should take to, to rescue their marriage. How, how can a couple identify the root cause of all the problems in their marriage instead of just treating the symptoms, you know, what does a couple need to do to heal from the very serious.

Wound of infidelity. What if one spouse wants to save the marriage, but the other one doesn't what does that spouse do and say to, to rescue the marriage and how can someone, uh, support a friend or someone they know who's going through a really rough marriage? What should they say? What should they not say?

So all super, super useful stuff for really anyone, but especially if you're in a really difficult struggling marriage, or maybe, you know, someone who is, this is gonna be especially useful for you. So keep listening,

welcome to the restored podcast, helping you cope, heal, and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce or separation. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 30 and we're at the end. The very end of our love and relationship series. The research shows that the biggest effects from our parents' divorce, our experience in a romantic relationships.

Why is that? Basically because we don't have a roadmap for love. We've seen a broken model of love and marriage. And so when it's our turn. We struggle in numerous ways, we feel lost. We feel like we just don't know how, how to do this thing. And so we're bringing you a roadmap, actual tips and expert advice on how to find and build authentic love.

My guests today are Greg and Julie Alexander. They're authors, speakers, and marriage missionaries. They help couples that are experiencing difficulties in their marriage, and they offer hope and guidance to assist system in rediscovering the joy and beauty in their relationship. They're frequent guests on national radio.

They've been married for 33 years. Some of those years have been very, very difficult. Uh, they almost got divorced as you heard me mention, but now they're so happy. Things are so different for them. They have seven children, five grandchildren, uh, they are Catholic Christians. So they're speaking from that perspective.

You're gonna hear a lot of talk about God and God's grace. So if you're not familiar with those terms, or you're not comfortable with them, I just challenge you to keep an open mind. You're gonna get a lot out of this episode, even if you don't believe in God, but truly without God in. Relationship Greg and Julie would not be married today.

They would not be doing the work that they do today to help heal marriages. And so I'm so excited to share this interview with you. There's really nobody like this couple out there. There's no one doing what they're doing. And so I'm so pumped for you to hear this at the end of the episode, I'll tell you how you can win one of three copies of Greg and Julie's book marriage 9 1 1.

So make sure to listen to the end, to hear how to enter that random giveaway here we. Greg and Julie, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's a pleasure to have you. Oh, it's great to be here. Thank you so much. And thank you for the work that you do. Yeah, we appreciate it so much. Thank you.

Absolutely. We are fighting the same more. We're trying to reverse that cycle of brokenness and divorce in our world, and I love what you guys are doing. And I read your book, fantastic book. I honestly couldn't put it down. And so I wanna get to, to your story cuz your story is so engaging and it's so hopeful and beautiful, um, and honestly dramatic at times.

And so let's dive into that story. Take us to the day, if you would, when you both hit rock bottom, what happened? Oh my goodness. Um yeah, rock bottom is, is an appropriate word. It was a day when I wanna say the discoveries were made, uh, when I had discovered that Julie. Having an affair. And, and what was interesting is as the anger and resentment was building up inside of me and just as I wanted to turn to her and kind of verbally unload on her, so to speak, I felt convicted to, to share with her, my indiscretions as well.

And, uh, I would say God knew exactly what needs to happen and when it needed to happen to be able to, to shake our tree and get us to wake up and, and come back to reality. Hmm. That was the beginning of rock bottom, but I can distinctively remember is on the floor in my bedroom, literally laying on the ground in a fetal position, bawling my head off.

And my mom had called on the phone and Greg answered the phone and I didn't wanna talk to anybody. I didn't care. Nothing else mattered. And he put the phone to my ear. And I literally was, I was like, it's done it's over. I never thought I'd be in this position. I never thought I'd feel so low, but it was a moment of grace when my mom said, we love you and we're praying for you.

And that literally was a breath of God coming through the phone to say, okay, something can be done. Incredible. And this all started by a knock at the door. Is that right? Right. Uhhuh yeah, there was a, a D friend of ours, uh, more so Julie's who was coming over to, uh, deliver a, a related Christmas gift for Julie.

And, um, at this point, Julie was working in San Antonio. We were living in Austin, Texas. So San Antonio is about an hour and a half away. And it was on one of her weekly trips back at home to visit with me and the kids that, uh, her friend was, was coming over to deliver that gift. , you know, which was not a gift, but in a sense, it was because the gift was literally the, um, the, the explosion or the, the exposing what had been taking place.

And that was probably, I just, I had no clue, no idea hiding behind the lies and the deceit and all that. And it coming out was a gift it was painful, most painful gift I'd ever received. But now, and then through the grace of God, the blessing that allow. Everything to be broken open so that something could be done about it.

Wow. So she confronted you, the li just blew off of all, like you said, the deceit that had been going on, and then it really forced you to, to face what was happening in your own marriage. And it brought you to the point where you essentially wanted to, to just give up, you thought that this is hopeless.

There's no, no future for us. And you said that when you broke the news to your kids, that you were gonna, you know, pursue a divorce that was kind of a wake up call. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, not really so much a wake up call. I would say, because at, at that point joy, we were so self-absorbed that we didn't even take in consideration the kids' wellbeing.

You know, we, we had, uh, at that point made the decision to divorce, uh, and Julie's wisdom decided to call our parish priest. I think because our, our church is our church home, if you will. So let's go home and find some answers. Uh, our parish priest couldn't do much for us, referred us out to a Catholic therapist.

And he was the one who suggested that maybe we were not meant to be together. Maybe we should get a divorce. And so at that point we thought, okay, we've consulted the expert. This is what he said. Let's go home and tell the kids. And so we called them into the room and kind of. Begin to explain to them how our relationship was kind of like theirs.

You know, guys, you are in fight sometimes, and that's precisely where your mom and I are. And we have decided to get a divorce and, and in an instant, their little seven, nine year old bodies huddled in the corner, embracing each other, literally crying their eyes out joy. And, and again, it wasn't a wake up call because we just skated right over that issue, not even taking consideration how they were feeling and we just kind of concluded, wow.

You know, if they grew up and manifest any problems and issues, we'll just send 'em to counseling. That's what everybody else does. And their lives seem to be okay. So again, demonstrating how coldhearted we were at that point to again, to the fact that we didn't even take their, their wellbeing, their state as in, into consideration at that point.

Yeah. We, we were below numb because, because not only how we entered into all of this, but we, there was so much darkness and sin in our lives because, you know, we would, I, especially in my life, showed up at church because that's what you're supposed to do as a Catholic. And honestly, the only reason I went is cuz I didn't want my parents to find out I wasn't going

So I did not, I didn't have a relationship with God. And, and the only reason I went because she dragged me outta bed and made me go so there was going through the motion. Yeah. Yeah. There was not this burning desire for, for this God to be in our life for sure. But sadly, I'll tell you what, how sad is it that, uh, we were, I, especially me, I was living such a double life.

We both were, we were living such a double life and didn't realize, you know, I always thought in my head, you, as long as mom and dad don't find out what I'm doing or as long as so and so doesn't know, or as long as somebody else I never, ever, ever. Had an inkling or a thought of God sees everything. And that didn't even come into my thought into my heart, into my mind.

And how sad is that? That's how a lacking I was in my relationship. My understanding of who God is. Sounds exhausting. That's so much to, to carry with you. And yeah, I, I we'll get to kind of the, the end of the story in a little bit, but what so much peace I can imagine came from being able not to, to hide anything anymore, but you, you touched on the fact that you tried to get some help and people will actually directed you.

Down the path that you were already considering of, of the divorce breaking off the, the marriage. And so, uh, talk about that a little bit people trying to help you, but then giving you that a as an option when you really, uh, needed something else. Yeah. You know, first of all, I'll, I'll go back and, and I just remember thinking that wow.

That if our marriage has arrived at such a point, then there, there can't be much a marriage, much of a marriage left if we're having to resort to these kind of behaviors. And, and I don't even know if it's, it is what I wanted, but I just simply turned to ju I said, you know what? I think we need to get a divorce.

And, and without even hesitating, she, she immediately agreed. And I was thinking, oh, wow, I guess we're hitting down that path. And that's when she had the. The desire to call our parish priest to see if he could help us. And, uh, so we went to that appointment and we kind of talked about the relationship and he made the mistake and asked the question, is this marriage relationship something you want

And we looked at him, are you kidding me? after all of the stuff that we just divulged or you, you think we wanna stay in this, this mess. Yeah. And he eventually said, I there's not much I can do for you, but here's the name to a Catholic therapist, you know, make an appointment to see him. And so we got there thinking that, okay, well maybe, maybe we'll find some, some answers some, some direction.

And, uh, first of all, he kind of went and gave us this long, uh, analogy as to how our relationship was like the civil war. And truly you like the north, Greg, you like the south. And maybe sometimes you have to come to realize that that just maybe you were not really meant to be together. Yeah. Maybe, maybe you should get a divorce

And so in that quick hour session, that's what we received. And, uh, he looked at his watch. He said, well, that's, time's up. You wanna make an appointment, then come back next week. And we're like, for what you just told us what we were already thinking, why do we need to come back and hear more? And now we just need to go back and figure how to dissolve this and, and to go our separate ways.

And that's what led us to, to coming home and sharing that information with our kids as. And, uh, it's just . I mean, as we, as we talk about it now, and this is like 22 years post train wreck, you know, the, the, the lump in my throat and, and the anxiety I'm feeling right now, just at the thought of what we were thinking about doing not only to our marriage, but to the lives of our children as well.

Yeah. Wow. And sadly, that's the advice a lot of people are given. I've heard so many stories where basically divorce is prescribed as a solution to the problems in marriage. Without really recourse to any other solutions or trying anything else. Um, and it's so sad because there is so much hope. There are so many good resources.

Well, maybe not so many, you guys are one of them , but, but there, there are ways to, to heal and we'll get into that in a bit, but it makes me so sad to, to hear that, uh, any someone who's struggling is just told to, to continue down that path before trying other things mm-hmm yeah, yeah. It it's devastating to the point where you see, and, and as, as those that are listening and those that might be in, in having struggles in their marriage, it doesn't start.

That day that you come to the conclusion to say, Hey, maybe we weren't meant to do this, or maybe we should divorce. Or maybe now as we hear from the church, maybe I can get an annulment. No, it's, it's, it's at the beginning, you know, there's so much ignorance and so much lack of, of, of preparation, meaning inside the home as to what marriage actually is, because, you know, you asked what, what, what happened to, to get us to that hit rock bottom.

But as you know, it doesn't start there. You know, it began on the foundation of sand, you know, not on the rock of Jesus Christ that we're supposed to stand on truth and, and firm and hope what we met in college. And it started off on the wrong foot because we didn't understand, we were, we were doing things entered into premarital.

Sex lived together, did had all these lies and ways of, of, of going against what is the, the normal. Proper way to do things. And so we started our relationship on a lie and we never did anything, but just kept building the bricks and building the bricks to then at this point that we couldn't sustain the, the, the huge load that we had placed in our own selves because of the way that we went against God from the.

Yeah, I, I think that's a pretty good point as Julie speaking, I'm just going back as well, because when you look at, you know, what really happened that got us to that point, uh, as much of what Julie had just mentioned, but, but I also wanna attest to the fact that, that my introduction of pornography into the relationship, you know, back in our college days, dating days, but, but also in, in our marriage and, and what I felt to understand as well as what Julie felt to communicate to me was that indulging in, in that that S smut was making her doubt herself, her beauty, her worth, her dignity, uh, made to feel as if she's a piece of meat.

And so it is no wonder that some other opportunities, opportunities coming along in her life, speaking into her life, things that he would do, if she was his wife, there's no wonder that she ran away. And so there there's so many times we, you know, we wanna look at situations like that say when infidelity happens and, and for.

The faithful spouse to pointed fingers at the other Paul at the other spouse said, well, this is your fault. You did this, you destroyed our marriage. But I think part of the healing comes in also when we come to understand what did we do to contribute to the demise as well. And, and that was a grace from God that allowed me to see that.

But, but again, that's what was happening. My making her feel as if she had no value worth in my eyes to then seek that somewhere else. And as she began to seek that somewhere else, I'm feeling the void of not having her in my life, the way I was used to. So therefore I have to go find this comfort somewhere else as well.

And, and. It's just when these things happen and it's something I've come to understand. Now that many people still don't believe is indeed the spiritual warfare that takes place each and every day. And, and I can only imagine now looking behind the current scene, Satan pulling the switches and the strings and the temptations to, to enter to our lives and to destroy a merit relationship.

And, and we were open pre and, and we had no understanding of relationship with God, no understanding of the grace and the SAC that could, could shield us away from those temptations, or even have the grace that have the eyes to see the temptations. For what they were. And, and so we , we just fail hook, line and sinker, as many people today are, are still falling as a result.

Wow, incredible. So it was a Rocky foundation to, to begin with, or like you said, Julia Sandy foundation to begin with. And then from there you both basically felt so empty in your marriage that you sought to be filled in other ways in other places. And like you said, Greg, just. Open pray someone to, for someone to come in and just to, to pick you off.

So, man, I, I can't imagine how many couples feel exactly how you guys felt, uh, in that moment. Yeah. , it's, it's interesting. You say that because as we have worked with many couples throughout the years, everybody's story is, is kind of the same. And of course we start, I work with couples by sharing our testimony, cuz we don't want them to feel as if they're sitting across the table from some holier than now, couple who has always done it.

Right. And just, just perfect. so we have to share with them to let them know who they're dealing with at that point. But I mean almost a hundred percent of the time. So couples come back and say, oh my goodness, it's it's like you had a camera in our house. This is the same things that we're going through.

Wow. And I always say, you know, Satan is not smart and creative. He just used the same thing on, on everybody. We, we all fall for the same lives, the same tricks that begin to allow for that division to be had in our marriages. And I'll even say that the sad part that, I mean, not too long ago, literally years ago, it just came to the, a revelation as I'm in prayer.

The holy spirit brought to my understanding, literally that we entered into our sacrament of marriage with no hardly re being able to receive any grace. It was, it was like a. Uh, we didn't go to the sacrament of reconciliation before we got married. Nobody ever told us to, we didn't study our faith. We didn't know that that's what you should do.

Just like all the other sacraments that, that we defile and that we don't understand the beauty and the goodness of why they're there and how it should be entered into. We came in so broken and so filled with wounds and, and, and sin that, that I'm shocked. Like literally, we are literally a living witness of a miracle that sits here and talks to you today that even can say, we, we, we look at every, each other every day and say, are you kidding me?

God must have really needed to be he's desperate one for if he chose us. But secondly, we go back and find so much hope in reading in the Bible and the people that God chose the, the greatest of the worst of the, the sinners, because it is so evident. Not only to our families, but our P the people that knew us, they could look at us now and say, there is no way you two should be doing this.

And our answer is, you know what you're right. But God is doing it through us. And we're allowing him to, because we're the worst of the sinners that we've ever met. And yet God's, grace can bring us to this under just beauty, where we can share our brokenness to give others hope in healing. Incredible, man, I, I love your story.

It, it makes me actually think of, I don't know if you are familiar with the musical, uh, Le Misra and it's such a beautiful story of redemption and mercy, and, you know, you have this man, John Ville, John who, uh, sold a loaf of bread. He's put in prison for 19 years for stealing bread. And he's just so bitter and empty and broken.

And literally his, his life is changed by the mercy of, of a Bishop. And then he goes, you know, goes on, it changes everything. And he goes on to become the, the person to be so mercy on others and to help others. And so you guys, I love that musical it's so, so beautiful. You guys remind me of him. It's, it's amazing.

And that's a huge confidence well, thank you. I, I, I love that we saw the play once and what I thought is so intriguing, interesting that you're saying that that's what we have to remember. And I think sometimes we forget that the mercy of God is shown here on earth in and into each other. Hmm. So, so our brokenness in our wounded that we know, we now recognize that we are both sinner.

and we know that we've married a sinner, you know, I know Greg thought he married a perfect person. I showed him really quickly. Actually. I thought I was a perfect person. Yes. We still have a lot of work to do. keep us humble. But what's amazing is I, he knows everything about me even more than my parents know more than anybody knows, but God knows everything.

Greg knows. And it in hi in his person, in his humanness, he forgives me and he says, I forgive you. And I love you. That makes me just go, are you kidding me? So now I can understand God's mercy. God's grace, God's forgiveness because a human being who knows my wretchedness literally can still be here with me.

That is what we're supposed to do to emulate the love, the sacrifice, the suffering of Christ, and yet to help each other, understand what it's all about. You know, you, you bring up a good point there because, you know, I'm thinking back despite the fact that this licensed therapist suggested we divorce, we didn't follow through with that joy.

We, we continue to kind of coexist in the home, not really making any effort to, to make our marriage better, but just coexisting. And, and I think it's because deep down inside, neither one of us really wanted to go anywhere. And you know, you think about the fact, you know, we, we're going through life. We're dating all these different people, but, but eventually find quote unquote, the one and this one person that man, you do it for me.

And I wanna spend the rest of my life with you. And we stand at that altar and we're professing these vows to, to be together, to death, to his part. And I think really in a lot of these marriages and divorces even. It's not really what they want. And it's kind of where we were. We had just yet to find a way to, to make our marriage work.

And I mean, we had delved in some of the self-help books and looking for, for help. There were points when Julie wanted suggest counseling. And I thought I was too much of a man that I don't need somebody else to tell me how to be a man and live my life and to be a husband and all those things as we continue to VO back and forth.

So never having find, found that resource to really give us what we needed. But I think again, deep down inside, we didn't wanna be a part. We just didn't know how to make it work together. No, that's beautiful. And before we continue on, I just wanna say something about mercy to everyone listening, who isn't familiar with that word mercy.

I believe the Latin word, um, basically means to be moved by the misery of another. And so basically when they're, uh, Greg and Julie are talking about this, everyone listening, they're saying God was moved by their misery. And he came in and gave them what they needed. And that's always, Mercy's always focused on the needs of the person.

Whereas justice is focused really on what the person deserves, especially, you know, if it's punishment or something like that. So it's, uh, it's an incredible, your, your story is a, a beautiful story of, of mercy. And so I just wanna clarify that for, for everyone listening. Maybe isn't familiar with that word.

Amen. I love that. And you know, it's awesome is go back to what he just said. Look, where we went, we went to the self-help section in the bookstore and, and what is Christ do? Self-sacrifice look at the opposite of what we were looking for. What am I getting out of this? What's in this for me? How much pain have I endured?

What has he done for me lately? I didn't know. This is what I was gonna have to go through. I asked myself that question, you know, what am I doing to participate in this marriage? The way God intended for it to be, and what have I done to take away from what it's supposed to be. And when I started to do that and self reflect, as you said, the misery of, of myself and his self and bringing that to that point of going, wait a minute, we are causing more pain and damage to one another than we ever did to bring each other to, to goodness and to, and to, to happiness mm-hmm

And that is when I knew that everything had a change, because we were heading down that path to self destruction, which was causing our destruction, which was causing the destruction of our children and everybody that knew us. Yeah. But, but here's something that a lot of people fail to take in consideration.

And maybe if there's someone listening today who might find themselves in that trouble spot, God knows exactly what we need to happen in our lives to, to shake us, to wake us up, to bring us back to him. We just have to respond to the call. So even in the bad things that happen, we have to know our loving father allowed it to happen and he allowed it to happen for a reason.

And, and again, we have that free free will Julie, either one of us could have made that decision to, to not turn back to God at that moment, and to continue in our wayward ways to try to find that fulfillment and that happiness in the things that we thought were gonna bring that fulfillment in the first place.

But yet God knew exactly what needed to happen. He knew this, the exact circumstance the exact day when the, the discovery needed to be made to put us in that position, to be able to turn back to him and, and just thanks me to God that there was enough grace in us, in our marriage to be able to, to do that 180 and to turn back to her heavenly father.

Incredible. Yeah, it seems like God's always on a rescue mission for all of us, but especially those of us who are in the worst situation, it makes me think of the, uh, PJs pair, rescue jumpers from the air force. These are guys, if you're not familiar, everyone listening, these are, um, people who are highly, highly trained, both in, in combat as well as in medicine.

And they'll go in the worst situations in the world to, to rescue, you know, our, our soldiers or other people and essentially save their lives. Like if they weren't there, these people would die. And so, yeah, it seems like God's constantly on that sort of rescue mission, which is man, so hopeful. So you guys.

You get to this point where everything just seems hopeless. People are telling you, you probably should just get a divorce. Come on. What kept you from going through with it a again, I think just that deep desire, not wanting to be a part and just not knowing how to make it work. Therefore again, just coexisting in the home and just, just going through the motions.

And, um, I mean, cuz we were never really coming back together praying at that time or coming together. In fact, the only Lance of faith in our life was, was still going to show up at mass on Sundays. and again, as I mentioned earlier, if it wasn't for Julie, I wouldn't have, have been doing that. Yeah. And, and in that, what what's so crazy is I thought this whole time I went out of.

A fear that I didn't want my parents to find out it wasn't going. And as we continued to go, even in our worst of worse times, we still went to mass on Sundays. And now I realize that was God's grace, his hand calling us to go because it was in that time of going to mass after the train wreck, after the, after finding everything out that we continued to go, and it was a blessing, cuz God allowed us to meet this incredible man, a priest who truly was a gift in our life that that gave us the hope and the life vest, the life raft that we needed.

I I'm I'm, I'm laughing to myself. It's you is talking because, uh, I wanna say we, we. Um, able to put on a, a great facade if you will, because we would continue to go to mass, but people would come up to us after mass and, oh my goodness. You have a beautiful family. You got a beautiful marriage. I wish we had a marriage like yours.

and I remember us getting in the car, looking at each other, like if they only knew. And, and so we, we were, we were experts. We probably could have gotten an academy award for being the best husband and best wife. Cause we , we presented that front very well but, but again, thanks me to God for, for that priest coming in that summer into our parish, filling in for our pastor for the whole summer and, and.

The best I could explain. He was just a great teacher of the faith. His Hollies were incredible. You know, my parents converted to the Catholic faith when I was in the third grade. And for all points and purposes, I really didn't know much about my faith, but in his Hollies, as he was talking about this Catholic faith and the beauties and the treasures and the things we had, it, it was just eye open.

It was refreshing. And we went from, from barely making it to mass on time, standing in the. Watching our, our watch to count down a time to say, when is this gonna be over? And we can leave many times, uh, now as I know, SAC religiously receiving Jesus and leaving early, just so I can get back home and, and watch the football game or whatever it was that we were gonna have to do.

But, but again, this priest that God allowed to come into our lives began to, to speak those words that just literally started to echo and reverberate in their heart. So much to the point that we, we started making a decision to meet with this priest in between the two masses, just to, to get to know who, who is this guy.

He's just incredible. Cuz he was not like anything else we had ever experienced. And I remember one of our, our visits, we were asking him about what he did in the diocese. And he said, well on the tribunal Vicker. I'm like, oh, I know that guy. That's the guy that does this en enrollment thing. You know, this awesome, God sending this priest in our lives to be our friend, because he's gonna be the one, show us how we can get out of this thing and to go our separate ways, quick, easy, and simple.

That's God, God's just gonna show up and help us get out of this thing. And, oh Lord, we had no idea. We had no clue, but I, I scheduled an appointment. I called and asked if we could come see him and the poor priest, he thought we were coming by for a social visit. Well, before that, the, the argument that that had created, cuz you know, Julie said, we need to go see this guy.

I'm like, we just created this great relationship with this priest. He's our new friend. I'd be darn. If I'm gonna go and expose our, our junk to him, are you kidding me? so that in of itself almost turned into a fight as well. But uh, but we, we get to the appointment and, and poor God. He thought we were coming by for this friendship visit.

Again, as we're starting this new relationship, but we get there and, and for the next 45 minutes or so, we proceeded to build our case as to why we felt we could no longer stay married. And we started pointing the fault and blame. He did this, she did this and, and, uh, the lying, the cheating, the materialistic things in our lives, that indels, and, and again, he's sitting there as if he's watching a tennis master who are just volume in the false and blames back and forth, back and forth.

But finally, when we, we ran outta stuff to, to, to dig up on each other, uh, he leaned forward. He said, look, guys, I understand your plight and your situation, but let me ask you a few questions. What is God's plan for marriage? What does our church teach about marriage? What are some of the writings of St.

Paul and the various holy fathers pertaining to the SAC marriage? Julie and I looked at each other short by show. We don't know father, you know, I mean, what, what does this have to do with us, man? We're we're Catholic. And we go to church every Sunday and we used to be in love and now we're not. And, and we were simply hoping you can show us how to, how to get out of this thing.

He said, ah, but what I suggest is you go back and you find some answers to the questions that I've asked before you make a final decision. And, and thanks me to God that we, we took, took that challenge seriously and went back to, to do just that. Incredible. And it was through that process of discovering God's plan for marriage and kind of what you guys were missing all those years that your marriage wa was rescued.

Is, is that right? Take us through kind of that journey and that process. Yeah. I wanna say that, that was kind of the first symbol of hope for me cuz as I'm going back and I started of course with St. Paul in Ephesians and I'm looking cuz I, I thought it, you know, if nothing else, I remember that, that, that great Hoy in Ephesians.

So I found my way to that part where it says, why is be submissive to your husband? and I remember thinking, here's the problem in our marriage, man. I got this miss fitness queen over here. Wanna make a million dollars, just wanna be seen all over the place. She's just not doing the things I want her to do.

Yeah. This Bible, man, this is some awesome stuff. but then I went back and as I continue to read, and then I read the few, the next lines, husbands, love your wives. Like Christ, love the church. and I mean, it's like, I hit a brick wall and I just stopped like, wow. Like, like Christ led the church and Christ died for the church.

Am I dying to myself for some of the things that ju is wanting and desiring in, in this marriage. And I was just kind of reflecting on our lives of, of the things she was wanting. And as she would say, you know, we were very, very much into the Trinity instead of being the father, son, holy spirit. It was for me, myself and I, and in all of our life, I started looking at that.

Yeah, it was all about me and what I wanted, what she needed to do for me. And so dying to myself or her, it was, it was unheard of. And so then I, I started to think, wow, that, that maybe some of my own selfishness was contributing to the breakup and breakdown of our marriage. And then thanks me to God that, that her parents gave us a catechism of the Catholic church as a wedding gift.

that I remember getting, and I'm like, what in the world are we gonna do with this thing? but thanks me to God, we, we kept it. And, and I, I thought, okay, well let me go and see what the church has to say about marriage. And so thumbing my way through. And I finally found. The section article seven, uh, paragraph 16.

Oh one. I believe it is marriage in God's plan. And, and I started to read and for the next two days, joy, I just stayed in our bedroom, just reading and absorbing this information and coming to understand that while this, this God has a plan for marriage and what we were doing was totally contrary to what I'm seeing in, in this catechism.

And then I, I hit paragraph 1608 in the catechism that began to talk about marriage. In the regime of sin and it started talking about what would happen to your marriage once you allow sin to enter into it. And it start to speak of things like hatred, domination, lust, infidelity, and then the red light went off that, wow, maybe this church do know something about marriage.

And, and if we can, can look here and see the, the damage that it knows about, maybe we can find some resolve here as well. And then I remember getting on the internet, uh, going to Catholic information network or going to, to alt Vista was the big search engine at that time. I'm dating myself now, but I typed in Catholic marriage and got led to the psych Catholic information network.

But it was there that I found out about. Encyclicals had never heard of the word. But the first one that I, I found in, in downloaded and read was our related holy father jump all the great familiarity consortium. And it was delving into that document that really allowed me to start seeing some of the attacks that the world would wage on our marriage relationships.

And it was there that I started to learn. What are some of the qualities and characteristics to be a good Christian husband, a good Christian father? What are some of the dynamics that should be taking place in the home in order for this, this home to be this, this domestic church. And, and again, I'm just, I'm just, it it's like St.

Paul and the shields falling from my eyes and not only seeing. Our marriage, but my, my life in a different life and I called Julie into the room and I spent about 30 minutes or so, just overviewing with her, some of the highlights that I was finding and look at this stuff and this whole things, and it's about me forego the things I want to do for you and all these different things.

And, and she was, she was just as wide eyed as I was she, wow, this is incredible. What do we do? And instinctively, I turned her, I said, I don't know, maybe we need to pray or something. And at that point, of course, married for 10 years, having been together for 13 years, total. We had never gone to a heavenly father in prayer, looking at the jobs we had, the money, we were making all the toys and the materialistic things in life we had.

And at one time to include the beautiful children. Had we ever gone to God in a simple prayer of Thanksgiving. And so I took Jule by the hand, we got on our knees and I recited the simple prayer. And I said something to the effect that father, we tried living our marriage based upon the things that we think we should do, and it doesn't work.

But we have also tried to listen to the ways of the world and father, as you know, those things too, do not work. And I said, heavenly father, more than anything right here. Right now, we invite you into our lives to show us how you want us to live marriage. And if you deliver us from this evil, we will commit the rest of our lives working in some type of marriage or family ministry.

And, and that was the day we opened the door and extended an invitation for our heavenly father to come into our lives, to come into our marriage, to, to be able to be back in the driver's seat as he had always intended to be. And, and for him to deliver the holy spirit, to continue to lead us to this path that allowed for us to find the things, to find that redemption in the Lord and savior Jesus Christ, what a story, what a story.

And so you opened your marriage essentially up to God and asked for his help. And, and then what happened after that? Yeah, it just, uh, well, I'll tell you that first, because the day that Greg called me into the room, everything changed for me. I didn't trust him. I didn't like to be around him. I felt dirty, cheap used.

I mean, you name it. I mean, if you, if you feel like that from someone you're supposed to spend the rest of your life with, there's not much hope anywhere else. And so when he. Laid down his pride. And he went to God in front of me and he assumed the position of falling underneath the authority of God.

Instead of, instead of doing things, as you know, he, he witnessed, or as he saw growing up, everything changed. My heart literally was on fire for him. The day he called me into the room and said, I think we need to pray. And it was this understanding of being this washed, literally in the understanding of this grace that I literally felt poor over me, that I was like, all of a sudden, I just wanted nothing more than to make this marriage work.

There was hope there was. And when he said deliver us from the sea, I thought, gosh, isn't that amazing? Like deliver us. We say it all the time. And we knew the, our father, we knew that prayer. And we said that if, if only that prayer I remembered, it was like, wow, we're asking God to deliver us. And truly he answered Greg's call.

And then we started to put everything in order. Cuz at first everything was out of order. It was the job and the money and the house and the cars and the materialism God was at the bottom. When we were in trouble, God, why are you doing this to me? Why are you making me go, you know, go through this. But by that action that Greg decided upon himself by the grace of the holy spirit to put into place, God first, each other second, him leading me then the kids.

And everything else fell into that order. All of a sudden, the chaos and disorder that we had been living for so long just fell off. And now we were in a position to be ready to do whatever it was that God was asking us to do. Yeah. You know, and she gives me credit with that, Joey, but it wasn't even on from my own genius, if you will.

It is just something internally. I knew that needed to happen. We started learning about this God. And as we started this prayer thing, we would all of a sudden feel better. But then we started looking at our lives and start saying, okay, what are the things that we are allowing to be in our lives? That's really causing us this distance.

That's causing us to be taken away from each other and our heaven father as well. And the first thing that came to mind to us was the jobs because we, we had good jobs. I was in pharmaceutical sales, Julian, yellow page, advertising sales at the time. And, and the money allowed us to be able to indulge in those things that took us away from each other.

And now, as we had come to know that had taken us away from our heavily father as well. And so we made the decision to quit our corporate jobs and we didn't know what we were gonna do, where we were gonna go. But we, we knew that the jobs were providing the money that allowed us to do those things. So it, it could no longer be there.

And then we started thinking about anything in our life that was not positively contributing to our life and our marriage. It had to go. And we started focusing on our relationship with God, continuing to, to bathe ourselves into sacraments and to, um, to focus on our marriage and our children and whatever else we needed to do to generate revenue, to, to keep eating, so, to speak and paying our bills.

And, and that was the, the only priority we had in our life at that point in time. But it's, it's exactly what we needed. Again, I truly feel that God, you know, graces with the holy spirit, the, the leaders in those ways to do those things. Because he knew exactly what we needed. Wow. It's so bold. That's such a bold move to quit your job, especially you both were making good money and that man stepping out into the unknown.

Talk about that. That is crazy, man. There's so much we could go into there's so much that we could say, but you essentially started prioritizing your relationship with God and your marriage. And by doing that things just started to change. And again, we can go into all the details I'm sure. But I wanna kind of fast forward to today.

Uh, how, how is your marriage different now? What's your marriage? Like? How would you describe it? Oh, wow. It's it is 180 degrees different from the way it used to be. Uh, there's not very much we do anymore to where we're. So self-absorbed that it's about us and, and we are constantly thinking about what we need to be doing for the other person, you know?

Um, as I tell the couples that we work with, just because we're sitting on this side of the screen or the. Doesn't mean that we're perfect. Wonder from holding, get it right all the time. Sure. You know, there's, there's still those, those, those difficulties. In fact, Julie uses the, the analogy of a flower. She said, you know, you can take a flower.

And in order for that flower to, to demonstrate its beauty, we have to give it the proper water, food and nutrition, sunlight on a daily basis for the day that we start to deprive that flower of any one of those, those sources, it starts to. Hm. And it may take, you know, four or five days before we actually see the results of it dying.

But the day we stop feeding, it is the day that it starts to die. And it's the same thing in our marriages. The day that we stop giving to each other, the things they, that the other person needs today, we stop feeding each other in our marriage is the day that that marriage starts to die. And unfortunately, you look at many couples in, in our, in our church, in our society that they get married.

And, and whatever they did for marriage preparation is typically the last thing they'd done for the marriage relationship. Mm-hmm . And so you can only imagine the stillness, the stagnation, the theri smells that are in the lives of the individuals, because they have failed to feed each other, to give each other what we need.

And, and as in our case, we thought, okay, well now maybe I can go to somebody else and they can feed me and give me what it is that, that I need when indeed, that, that should come from the source of the person that we, we chose to, to spend the rest of our lives with. Yeah. And I think it's important to say, especially today in this social media world, you know, it's literal, marriage is not about the fun and games and the drinking and the partying and the getting what you can and buying what, whatever is, is on your, your list to, to take, you know, your, your bucket list.

Literally, our marriage is our pathway to sanctity. We are married so we can help each other, get back to our creator to get to God. Because when, when we meet at that altar, when we come to that altar, God is entrusting us with the other person's heart. The other person's soul, it's their heart that we are called to then nurture and cherish and, and, and lift up, not to discard, not to trample on not to break, but when we know that our calling is to one day, Bring that heart, that, that son that God has given me and Greg, that I am supposed to return him back to God, better than the day I received him.

I have a mission. It's not all about this, this life. It's about where we want to spend eternity. And this is just our marriage is marriage preparation for the final. Wedding banquet, the eternal wedding feast. And I pray to God instead of saying, okay, Greg, what are you doing for me lately? I pray that I have done everything I can by the grace of God to allow Greg to enter into heaven.

That's what I said. I do too. I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about your ministry. So you work with couples. Tell us a little bit more what you offer for couples who are either struggling or maybe just wanna build a really strong marriage. Yeah, it's interesting. You asked that question. Joy, because probably within the last year we have kind of recommitted ourselves to really focus on just the trouble marriages.

You know, up until five years ago, we had parish based marriage ministries. We had all these other things that we were doing, which were things that are indeed needed, but I think we were stray away from the. And, um, experiencing a lot of difficulties as we do in our marriage. And, and so we're smart enough to know that when God starts to allow these difficulties to happen, we need to pull back and pray and go and talk to him to say, okay, what are we doing wrong?

And where is it that you want us to be? And in doing so we felt him calling us back to where we started ministering to couples who are, who are in trouble in their marriages and to help bring them back. So through our marriage disciples program, that's exactly what we do to help bring a sense of hope and healing for these couples to help them not only come closer and back together with each other, but leading them to our Lord and savior Jesus Christ as well.

Cuz you know, a lot of people come and they say, oh, you know, I hope you guys are good or you're our last hope. I'm like, there's no worry on my behalf, cuz everything that we do to really help couples to be able to, to reconcile and to redeem their marriages, has everything to do with their willingness to participate couple with God and his grace as a result of the things that they start to do, that that's what gets into where they need to be.

Julie, and I are just the mere instruments. And I wanna say the, the happy, humble instruments that God has deemed us worthy enough to be able to serve on his behalf for all those couples that we, we find ourselves ministering to. So you're coaching with couples and you said you have a program where you're training other couples to coach others.

Is that right? Who are going through struggled marriage? I'm just curious, you know, if someone's listening and they're, uh, thinking, man, I really could use some help. Uh, what is exactly that you guys offer? I, I know you mentioned coaching and things like that, but I wanna make sure they really understand.

Yeah, I wanna, I wanna go back. First of all, make a clarification. We specifically refer to it as marriage discipling and the reason being, and I I'll show you real quick, how we came upon that one day I was sitting at the computer and the thought the truth shall set you free, kept coming to mind and, and being the smart Catholic, I was, I didn't even know where it was in scripture so I went and found my way to, to, uh, John eight verse 32, however, in a prior verse 31, Christ was speaking to the Jews.

And depending on the translation, he would say something like, if you keep my truth, if you live my commandments, then you become my disciples, then you know, truth and the truth sets you free. And so before we find this authentic freedom, we have to become a disciple of Christ. The way that we become a disciple is coming to understand and living out his truths.

So our marriage disciples are those who have come to live out and understand Christ's truth for marriage. And now we're there to, to minister other couples and serve and help bring them to that truth as well. So that, that's why we, we kinda make that distinction if you will. But, uh, so yes, we, we have that available.

So anyone who, who feels that they are experiencing those difficulties, they can come to our website, the Alexander house.org, or, or more specifically the marriage disciples.org website. And. Send in an intake form or a request for an intake form and we'll start the process. And we usually work with couples once a week for the first four weeks before I feel that it is there, that we begin to kind of rebuild the foundation of their marriage relationship.

And then we let them take what we give in that month's time in, in, uh, take another month of just putting those things into practice. And then he be come back and continue to work. But in all honesty, after about four sessions, we're, we're done with a couple and I don't care if it's minor communication issues all the way up to, to infidelity.

And even in instances where children were born from those adult's relationships and, and in five instances, not only. The couple's taking the way we're coupled back, but even going as far as to adopt a child of those illicit affairs and to be able to see and feed and manifest and take care of, and to, to take into your life as your own, the physical manifestation of your spouse in fidelity that's God's grace that gives the individual the power to be able to do so.

Just incredible. Seriously. Incredible. Wow. That that's fantastic. In four sessions. I mean, I, I remember reading in the book, you said that, uh, I think there was a couple who had just said yeah, four or five sessions with you guys. And they, they previously had gone through like 18 years of, of counseling. Uh, but it only took, uh, it only took you or no, I'm sorry.

It only took you three sessions with them after they had done 18 years. That's just incredible. Yeah. That's what God does. That's how he works. Cuz when we invite him in it, it's like our story, you know, people look at look and say, wow, you know, they, they don't. Understand the depths of where we came from.

But if we get take to the point, we were married for 10 years, had two kids. We were done having children and done with our marriage. And when Greg called me into the room again and invited God into our marriage, we've now been married for 33 years, seven children, five grandchildren. Think of all that would've not taken place if we would've called it quits at that time and just went in our own ways because it would've been a lot easier.

Believe me, it's not simple because there are days that we think of the past there's days that things come up. And yet we know that that, that has God calling us back to our humility and our, our taken away our pride to say, don't forget where you come from. Mm-hmm and don't forget how I, God am the one who brought you out of that mess.

And now that you, I brought you outta that mess, your message can give hope to this world that is so hurting for hope, because it's sad to say that 95% of the couples that come to see us have been to counseling have been to their parish. Priests have been to their diocese and offices have been to their friends and their family.

And we are the only ones that tell 'em there's help. And hope for their marriage that needs to change that said, and, and I think one of the things too, I'll say this right quick. You know, people say we got only three, four sessions, you know, what are you guys doing? Well, the thing is we lead them back to, to the church.

We lead 'em back to Christ, but more important. We lead them back to understand how to live out their sacraments. And, and many of us learn in our earlier years of catechesis that a sacrament is assigned. I instituted by Christ to give grace and, and we learn the definitions. We learn the answers to those questions, but, but we never really internalized that to really come to understand what does that mean?

And so what that means is that in this sacrament called marriage, all the grace, we need to love to care, to forgive, to have these happy, holy marriages, all the grace is packed into that sacrament, but there's a catch. And the catch is, is that we have to be living that sacrament the way that God calls us to for if we do not, we are not made available to that full abundance of.

And so there's a lot of couples married in the Catholic church who have now contracted this sacrament who think that by the mere fact that we have a sacrament, that the grace is, is there and the grace is there, but the grace is only efficacious to the degree in which we participate in the sacrament, the way that God calls us to.

So for the guys that are engaging in, in pornography, frequenting, strip clubs and all those different things, guess what guys, there's no grace. And so we have to come back and live our lives and our marriage, the way that God calls us to. And so therefore the difficulties is God's way of simply banging on the door and saying, you know what?

Wake up, Greg and Julie, it's not about the job. It's not about the money. It's not about the stuff. It's not about the other people. It's about me. I need to be front and center. In your life. I need to be your guiding star, but if you're like we, the way we were, we were too quick to throw up the hand and say, no, God, we got this.

This is our life. This is my job, the money I'm making. And, and God, because he's a perfect gentleman would honor what it is that we choose to do with our free will. So he's hands off until he has to allow that train wreck to happen, to bring us back to, to his understanding and really coming to understand the grace and what that is.

Everything is all about God and his grace, my ability to be who I am to do the things that I do. In fact, my ability to, to speak right now in, in all those that are listening, your ability to take your very next breath. It's God's grace at work. Why? Because he wills for it to be so for the moment, when he decides to cease to exist, or for us to cease to exist, he removes the grace and we do cease to exist.

So we have to understand that this grace thing is not some abstract thing that we just talk about. It's real. And it's, God's grace that God us to where we're at. Scott's grace, that he has, has deposited into that sacrament to give us everything that we need. And so when we are living apart from him, Joey, it, it is like living in this dark room.

But as we go into a dark room and flip that light switch, that light comes on and displaces the darkness, God works the same way in our. And in the darkness we had in our marriage, we teach couples how to go into that room, flip on that light to bring the light of Christ back into that relationship. And so, yes, it can be done in four and five sessions.

If couples are willing to take what we give them to be able to not only stand intellectually God's plan for marriage, but one of the things that I need to be doing in the confines of my domestic church each and every day, that's going to honor my father. That's going to make me predispose. So that full abundance of grace.

And that's the secret. Not having grace in your soul is like not having blood in your body. It's, it's so essential. And just because it's invisible, right? We, we talk about grace. It's kinda this complex, perhaps complex theological idea, but it's truly, um, just because it's invisible doesn't mean it's any less real and it's truly just God's life.

God's strength in our souls, in our marriages. And it truly gives us the ability to do things that we would never be able to. And that's truly what God's all about. He he's the one who can do the impossible when, when we can. And Greg and Julie, you guys are, are certainly, uh, evidence of that. Thank you so much.

Yeah. Wow. Thank you. We are, when we, when we share our story and when you, when you had us on here, it's always like anytime that we can give hope and, and that to share our, our, what God did with our mess and what God did through bringing us through this test. And, and literally what we just love is to see the transformation on the people's faces when they come to us and say that they're done, and they are on the brink of divorce and within one session.

We had five couples last Tuesday that were all were talking of, or had filed or were saying, we're getting a divorce. And within one session of saying, wow, I didn't know that God had a plan. I didn't know that this was what the church taught. They all their faces were transformed and they looked as though they had been given this new medicine of life.

Wow. Which they were because it's truth. Yeah. And, and what what's really devastating. And this kind of gets into your area, joy when there's children involved. And, and when we don't take the time to consider the wellbeing in our kids in that situation. But again, as Julie mentioned, and we're working with these couples and we bring them back and, and their kids start to see the difference.

In fact, Julie probably about six months ago was in a grocery store here shopping. And this, this 13 year old girl ran up to her and gave her this big old hug. And we're like, who is, who is this girl? ? And she said, I know who you guys are. And I want to thank you for what you did for my parents in. And that's that says it all right there, you know, priceless, there's no amount of money that you can put on that for the feelings we get, as a result of God using us to help bring others closer together and back to our Lord savior Jesus Christ.

It has to be so rewarding. Tell us how many couples have you worked with and, uh, briefly. Yeah. What are some of the results you've seen that you already mentioned some, but I'm just curious, uh, God knows how many we don't know, but over 5,000 couples, literally for the last 21 years and it's wow. 98% success rate, meaning the truth has gotten into these people's hearts and literally it is unbelievable to see it because what we see so often is when couples come to us in the despair of saying.

I can't do it anymore. I'm not in love anymore. I, I can't stand to be in the same room as this person. And when we start to ask the questions, it's three questions that I wanna tell you that Greg starts with and that the holy spirit came to him is, do you want this marriage relationship to work?

Sometimes they say yes, sometimes they say no, but the second one is, do you have faith that Jesus Christ can redeem your marriage? And when he goes back and points out the biblical parts of the, of, of, in the Bible where people actually it's their faith, that cured what they were ailing and what was ailing them, and that they put their faith in trust in Jesus Christ, how he has that ability.

They all say yes. And then the next one is, do you give God permission to come into your marriage and to help you and help you give you that grace? And when they say yes, they've already committed to say, I wanna do things different than the way I've seen. Cuz often couples that come to us have not had a good example of God's plan for marriage.

Oftentimes they come to us from a divorced family. They come to us from even FA marriages that we're not, we're not a positive example. They say, I want, I don't wanna end up like my parents. We wanna do something different. And when we start giving them this truth and we start giving them that, that, that the blueprint, which is God's.

They literally start to have hope and excitement into entering into, or to start doing things differently than they've ever been shown before. Really amazing. Wow. The 98% success rate. That's fantastic. And you, you don't hear that. You don't hear that anywhere else, uh, in the world, at least I haven't so Bravo to you guys for, for doing this incredible work.

I, I was gonna say, I was just thinking about the fact that, that, you know, again, that success is us taking him back and leading him to, to God's plan. So those that have not worked have been those that wanted know God. Are they drug and a alcohol addicted, are they already have that significant other person where they're not willing to give up?

And there's been a couple that have come back and said, Hey, we've been out. We tried everything else. Can we come back now and try some of that God stuff? And, and they came in and turned around as well. So, you know, we, we're not surprised anymore. We used to be in the beginning, but, but we know that God makes good on his promises.

And if we promise to come together and to engage in this relationship called marriage and live it his way, he will allow the graces to be there for everything to be okay. And everything we give couples are exactly everything that we've gone through. We've just been smart enough not to change it. Let's shift gears and talk a little bit about some practical things that couples can do.

Uh, I wanna get your advice on a few things. Uh, the, the first is. There are definitely spouses listening right now, who, who are struggling. They're in that really rough spot in their marriage and they need real help, but they may feel overwhelmed by, by the problems that they face. Uh, where should they start?

Like what's the first step to, to rescuing their marriage. The first step is, is really going to prayer. You know, so many times we'll, we'll go to God in prayer and, and looking for help and, and, you know, let this magical thing happen for everything to be okay. But going to God and asking him for the strength to persevere, first of all, to maintain their yes.

To their vows that was made at the altar in front of God, family and friends, and to each other. And, and so really going back to where it all began and really focusing on your own life now to see what it is that you have done that has negatively contributed to the relationship, you know, because it's always about the other person, what they didn't do, right.

Or what they've done the cause of hurt and pain. But we have to start looking at what it is that we've done to, to allow for that, that, that breakup, that breakdown to be there in the first place. And then after that is just simply going back to our church. All the answers is there. And as I've kind of already demonstrated, you know, the catechism of the Catholic church, in fact, as we work with couples now, and one of the things I learned from that good priest, we don't give them all the answers.

There's sometimes I have them go back and find answers to come back to tell me, because there's something about the fact that when we go back and we start to seek and, and, and we open our hearts in that process, God set a fire inside inside of us. That just makes us want, want to have more. And so we kind of treated like Lexi Divina for couples to go back and say, maybe start with paragraph 1601 in the catechism, say a quick prayer to God.

Father send me your holy spirit to reveal to us what you want us to know. As we read this paragraph. Maybe it's a word. Maybe there's a phrase or a sentence. So we haven't read the paragraph. Meditate on it, read it again. Meditate if need be, read it again, but ultimately turn to each other and say, sweetheart, what did you feel God, through the holy spirit, inspiring in your heart from that verse, from that paragraph.

And you'll be amazed at where your marriage goes. And, and the things that the holy spirit will, will begin to reveal to you. And, and so God knows exactly what it is that we need. It's just a lot of us never humble ourselves to go to the father, to see what it is that he wants to show us and coming to understand that as you begin to, to turn and conform your lives to the ways that you have to become that new creation in Christ and no longer engage in those activities and behaviors of the things you were doing that took you away.

And that's another difficulty for a lot of people, they still wanna do all the crazy stuff, but they want things to be okay. And, and you have to make that choice as it tells and security, you can't serve to gods. And so you're gonna either have to serve, you know, the God, the creator, the sovereign father that we have are you gonna have to serve the God of this world?

And, and we all know what, where that gets us so often. I think in marriage, but also just in life in general, we treat symptoms and we kind of ignore the root cause. How would you say a couple can identify the root cause of all the problems within their marriage, uh, to begin with? Well, I would just say the root cause is, is all of our hearts are just the sin.

The ignorance is, is huge to not understand the truth, not understand. God's plan allows us to then open ourselves up to, to the evil that's out there, which causes wounds and which causes pain and which causes those things. So the root problem, usually the things that we discover that seem like they're, they're the, the issue, lack of communication, finance issues, sexual issues, all these things, they do start.

Those are symptoms. They start with the root cause of a lot of that is even things that can come from our family, things that we open ourselves up to that that allow the evil to come in and, and, and to remain until we do something about it and turn towards God and ask for that healing. Yeah. And if I could do telling her comments that again, it's the ignorance, you know, we have to do a better job.

As a church. And let me go back to this. It's a battle to be fought on many fronts. We have to do a better job in marriage preparation in our churches. We need to have the facilities and resources available to help couples not only prepare for marriage, but to navigate through, through all of their married life, but more importantly in the times of difficulties.

We have to be able to go back and allow moms and dads to, to understand their role and their responsibility to, to teach the children that God gives this to him with to teach them in his ways and ways of his church. And so it's gotta be coming from all angles all the time. We can never let up because the world has no problem.

Speaking its message on a daily basis, through all the different resources and entity that it uses. And if we're not countering that message again, we see it at our children, their, their attitudes and their behaviors being formed by the culture and the ways of the world, as opposed to informed by God and his church and what he desires for us.

And so it's no wonder that we're having difficulties. A first question on our intake form for the couples is where is God in your marriage? And we hear things like, well, we say meal prayers every now and then, or are we gonna mass? Sometimes not even every Sunday. And that's the extent. And, and so I look at, I say, guys, you know, I'm not here to judge you, but some of the things you have shared with me, you're in the state of mortal sin and you know what, there's no grace.

And I said, without the grace of God, guess what you're supposed to be in trouble. I said, so God has allowed you to be here now so that we can begin to share this information with you to help bring you back. And so people are so poorly catechized in their faith. And, and as a result, poorly catechized in their faith in regards to what God wants us to do in our marriage.

Therefore again, the ignorance that they just don't know what they're doing, and they're trying to, to fill their hearts and their lives and their marriages with all the ways of the world. And it's just not gonna get it. And again, God allows the, the difficult times and the troubles to hopefully be that.

Fire it across the bow for couples to come and realize that and to come and understand that it is God that is missing and the things that he desires for us to do, that's gonna be the fix and allow us to be able to experience that joy and happiness that we all desired and coming together in marriage in the first place.

It's, it's like we're eating a diet of potato chips, ice cream, pop I'm from the Midwest. I say pop. And we are expecting to have like these ripped bodies and the marathon runners. And it's just, we want that good result, but we're not going about it there, which is why I love you guys. Cuz you, you give that roadmap, that blueprint and that your forward author say that then in the book they say that good intentions are not.

We might want that end result, but we need, we need a plan, a blueprint to get there. And so, uh, does that blueprint exist? And if so, how do we go about finding it and building those great marriages? I know we could do a whole seminar on this topic, but, but briefly, yeah. Does that blueprint exist and how do we find it?

Absolutely it, it does exist. And God has created that blueprint through the church and through the various resources it has in cyclicals, the catechism scripture, all the answers are, are, are there. And, and in short, it's what we refer to as the essential elements for strong Catholic marriage. That's coming to know and understand and live God's plan for marriage God's plan for chastity in marriage, understanding true forgiveness and healing.

And again, that ability to humble oneself and ask for forgiveness in those times, in which we have fallen short and have inflicted hurt and pain upon our spouse, but also for that spouse to be able to, to extend that quote unquote absolution for those transgressions as well. And then understanding more importantly, what does it mean for me to be a servant spouse?

It's not about what I want, what I desire and what I have to have. It's everything about what you chose to, to give up. And, and I always draw to the example of Christ being the, the epitome of what dying to self really is. I said the good thing for us, we don't have to, to literally die and give of our life.

It's just to start doing the things we don't like doing or forego things I like doing in order to serve our beloved. And, and there is a grace in that, that moment. In fact, God even spans paragraph 24 speaks to that. Man can only realize himself only when he's able to make a sincere gift to self in a sincere way that we could be a gift of ourself to our spouse.

And our marriage is when we died to ourself to serve the other person. There is indeed a grace in that moment. And then there's some life skill things in terms of coming to understand communication, how we should communicate, how do we deal with issues and, and, and concerns in the marriage itself. But then more importantly, weaving through spirituality to kind of bring all those pieces into binding them together.

And, and that's what we do in four short sessions that, that. Transforms the lives of, of these couples that come to see us. Let's talk about infidelity briefly here. It's so common in our world. Uh, what does a couple need to do to, to heal from that specifically? Cuz that that is a deep wound. It is a deep wound and I want people to be aware that it doesn't begin with sexual infidelity.

Infidelity starts with emotional infidelity with even having, having confidence in somebody, outside of your marriage relationship, things that you share with somebody, especially of the opposite sex that you should only really be sharing with your spouse. I mean, it, it begins this thing. How many times are we unfaithful to that?

Of what God calls us to unfaithful to the things he asks. And that's what happened with us in the beginning in fidelity is. Is the most painful thing in the world because it's the, the sexual act, the marital act that that is the sign of our sacrament, but it can be healed. And that's what happens.

Oftentimes when couples come to us again, taking him through this healing and forgiveness exercise, that's modeled after the, the sacrament of reconciliation. It's another thing that came to Greg, but long story short is everything can be healed when we ask God to come in and heal it. And, and it's unbelievable to say this, but where there's the most break.

when God comes in and binds that together through our healing and forgiveness and, and reconciliation and the sacrament of reconciliation and receiving that grace, it can be stronger in that break where it's it's it's what do you call that it's brought together like a tree that's well, well, I I'd liken it.

I, I used to be in the x-ray tech in military and, and one of the things we learned that, that when there's a break in the bone and when you reset that bone and due to the calcification and it's things that take place to heal that bone, that point of the. Become stronger in any other part of the body. So it's one of the things I expressed to the couples that despite the fact you have to experienced this break, when we put it back together and you heal your marriage is gonna be strong enough to endure anything that Satan has to throw at you in, in your life.

But again, providing that they keep God front and center. Yeah. And one of the common things I have to mention it, cuz it's such huge issue and it's plaguing marriages is pornography and it's both from men and women's side. I mean, literally it is destroying marriages because it is infidelity. I mean, you're, you know, when you're, you're focusing on somebody else or looking at something else, an image on a screen or whatever the case is that.

Twist and distort. So what the act was intended to be by God, and there's no good that can come out of that. And what we're seeing is these ways in which both either, either men or women are indulging and engaging in this, they start to excuse the beauty and the goodness and the, in the, the awesomeness of their own spouse, because that bringing pornography and opens up the door for Satan to come in and twist your understanding of using another person for selfish gratification.

And that was never God's intention or plan for us to do on anyone to include our spouse. Absolutely. Yeah. Porn truly does destroy our ability to love. And you cannot have a marriage if you don't have that ability to love. There's so much we could say on that, we're gonna be producing content. Uh, specifically, one thing I wanted to mention is it usually doesn't stop there.

You know, people think like, oh, I'll just, you know, look a little bit of porn here and there, but it usually leads to other sexual behavior that usually is unwanted. It's something that people never imagine themselves doing or wanted to do, but because of the habits that they've established in their lives and the addictive, uh, you know, capacity of pornography, literally on a, a neuro biological level, we end up in that spot.

So again, can't get into all that right now, but we'll be producing content around that topic specifically. I wanted to ask you guys what happens if a spouse comes to you and one of them wants to save the marriage, but the other does not. What should that spouse say and do, who does want to save that marriage?

Yeah. One of the most difficult and painful situations that we ever deal with is when somebody wants it and somebody doesn't, or even when somebody wants God and the other person doesn't. But we will tell that person, Joey, as hard as it is, we ask them to pray and to literally offer sacrifices, everything fasting every day for their spouse, because it is truly them.

We call them to stand firm to their marriage vows, to what they promised God that they would do at the altar. And you know, what's amazing about that is I remember first having these words come outta my mouth, thinking this person is gonna just hate me for saying this. But each and every time when we tell that person to remain faithful to their marriage vows, they cry and they say, thank you.

You're the only one that's telling me to do that. And that's what I wanna do. I wanna stand for my marriage because when I married that person at, when I stood at the altar, I said, until death do us part, and we always tell them picture years later at the end of your life, we all have to put ourselves in that position.

Cuz we're all gonna die. It's it's, that's a given every, there's nothing else that's assured in our lives, but we all are going to die and we all will see God face to face. And he will ask us the question, how well did you care and love for the gift that I placed in your care? And we will have no excuse.

We will have no outlet to say, oh God, you saw him. Or you saw what he did or you saw what he didn't do. It'll be God and me. Face to face. And I will have to say, God, I did everything I could by my own weakness, but your grace to bring Greg back to this point, to allow him to be with you for eternity. And I hope then that he can say welcome into my kingdom.

My good and faithful servant, cuz that is my hope and my prayer that I will one day be with God, for eternity and everything I do here on this side of the heavens on this side of earth will determine how I will be spinning my eternity. If I can dovetail on that beautiful comment as well. You know, we said I do too.

It wasn't just one person saying I do in the relationship. So we do have a responsibility to the marriage and to God as well. And so just because your spouse want to renig on their vows, that mean that you have to as well. So by maintaining your yes and your, I do, and still continue to even serve your spouse in the way that you are called to serve.

Uh, I sometimes take couples to the verse one Corinthians seven, 14, and it's about the unbelieving spouse. And how the, for belie the unbelieving spouse can be sanctified through his wife. And, and I have a quick story of a couple that, um, we worked with and, um, he was in the air force, uh, very good looking guy, jet pilot, you know, women were all over the place and he, he took advantage of that opportunity.

They were stationed here in the states. He received orders to serve in, in England. And so the wife had the, the question, do I stay here with my own family, mom and dad, meaning, or do I take the chance and go to Europe and be with this, this serial infidel. And she made the decision to go, and he continued his wayward behaviors even overseas, but she found this little community of old ladies that began to meet with her, pray with her and encouraged her to maintain her yes.

And her vows. And so her husband started to notice that, wow, I'm being an idiot. I'm doing all these things, but yet you're still this loving wife, you know, what are, what are you doing? And she started to share with him, I'm living my faith. I'm praying. I'm, I'm maintaining my yes. And that eventually won him over to, to quit those behaviors, to come back, to ask for forgiveness in his marriage to reconcile.

And then they went on to a great marriage and, and I think they have like five or six kids. Now, two kids married, couple of grandkids as well, but it's because she chose to maintain her. Yes. And to live her marriage vow, despite the fact that he was willing to, to renig and to, to be that infidel. And it took years.

And that's something that we talk about sometimes on the show is that we often want results right away, but we often have to wait. And so it's, it's a great reminder talking about people who maybe have a friend who is in a really difficult marriage that they're listening right now. So I'm just curious, what would you say to them in how they can support their friend?

Who's in a difficult marriage? Uh, what should they say? What should they do? And maybe what should they not say? And. Yeah. So to start, I mean, you can always ask this, this person that you are around, that's divulging to you, that they're not in a good place in their marriage. And. Where is God in your marriage.

God has a plan. God is committed to your marriage, pray and ask him for the grace to be who and what you are called to be in this marriage. And, and let's, let's look on online for some help, you know, go to the Alexander House to, to, to look up information, lead them to truth, lead them to freedom, not more into bondage cuz you know, it, it says in scripture.

God says, I hate divorce. God doesn't hate anybody, but he hates what it does to his people. So by all means we, as the faithful people of God have to help people, encourage them to stay in and help fix their marriage, not give them reasons to get out. Because we're here to build the body of Christ, not tear it down and rip it apart.

Another thing we do quite simply just we, we just refer 'em to our book. Um, I, I can't even begin to tell you the stories that we heard from couples that a family member or friend a priest gave them our book and reading the book again, gave them hope, and it starts to introduce them things in their lives that typically they've never been introduced to.

I E God God's plan for marriage, saccharin of marriage and, and what all those things mean. And, and it brings 'em back. And there's so many that have come back together and found healing themselves, not even coming to see Greg and Julie are any of our other marriage disciples, but just reading that book and come to understand that, wow, we need to cultivate a life of prayer.

We need to be engaging in the resources that teach us how to be the man, woman, husband, and wife that God intended for us to be. So, so the book is a good resource as. And the book is marriage 9 1 1, how God saved our marriage and can save yours too. And I love the title cuz it's an emergency help, help. We need help.

Absolutely. And we called on the right person cuz he came to our as. Absolutely. And we're gonna do a raffle of those books, everyone listening. I'll tell you more about that at the end of the episode, how you can enter into that raffle. We're gonna give three away and anyone listening, if you know, you really need to buy this book for a friend of yours, who's going through a really tough marriage like GRK and Julie just said, uh, reach out to me.

You can reach out to me. I'll tell you at the end, how to do that. And we will purchase it for you if you can't afford it. So definitely, uh, so much you can do to help. And the Alexander House is there to help you help them, uh, in closing out, there's so much more we could talk about, but I just wanted to ask you, you know, so many of us listening to this right now, our children of divorce and, and we have this fear of repeating our parents' mistakes and their own marriages.

Uh, we, you know, we don't wanna get divorced. What encouragement advice would you give to anyone listening right now? Who's wrestling with that. God bless all of you. And that fear is real. And yet fear opens the door for Satan. And what I want you to know is right now, right here, there is a, you know, marriage or divorce is, is, is, uh, spirit.

There is a spirit of divorce that goes on and on and on for generations, but you, by the power of Jesus Christ, have the ability to stop that. For the rest of your family and for generations to come, you know, it says in scripture that if you do anything against God, four generations will pay for my sin, your sin.

But if you do something good, a thousand will be blessed. So you have that ability by your baptism to go through, but knowing and understanding that the healing of your wounds is critical and important. Yeah. Julie mentioned the word fear and of course we find in, in God's word. Perfect love, cast out fear, who is perfect.

Love God. And so. If you have been unfortunately, and have had to endure your parents' divorce, know that again, that, that comfort, um, that, that strength, that ability to know is found in God. And so embracing this heavily father growing and cultivating that prayer life, and then turning to the re resources that God has given us through his church to teach us how to live marriage.

We, we have so many couples that come to us in marriage preparation with that exact question, you know, how are we gonna do this? I come from the divorce family. I am. I'm like fear, not all we have to do is live God's plan for marriage. And the grace will be there that allows us again, to, to break the change from those old habits and, and things that have been passed on to our families to be able to discover the way that God wants us to live it and to rediscover the joy in happiness that he has intended.

So, so again, fear not embrace our heaven. Father embrace the truths of his teachings for marriage and, and that'll be your, your insurance to a great, happy holy marriage to death of you part. Yeah. And Joey, I'll just say this we've witnessed some of the strongest marriages ever where they come from divorce because they specifically work at their marriage.

Some people that don't know what divorce is like, and they've never experienced it. They just assume that everything's gonna be fairy tales and good, you know, that Hollywood lies of marriage is just gonna be perfect and no, no problems, but those that have experienced it and they say they don't want to end up like their parents.

They, we have seen them work hard and they have been in amazing marriages and great witnesses as to what can happen when they put God in their. That's so encouraging and it's even encouraging for me. I, I need to hear that too. And I just want everyone listening to know, just like Greg, Julie just said, you can write your own story.

You don't have to repeat that pattern, that cycle. And there's so many of us who are doing that right now. We are truly trying to, uh, to reverse that cycle, Greg and Julie, thank you so much for all the work that you do. If people wanna get in touch with you, wanna follow you, what's the best way to do. Uh, the best way to do is just simply go to our website, the Alexander house.org.

That's the T E Alexander house.org. And, and there, you can find our contact information. If you need to email or give us a call or more importantly, if you need the marriage disciples, uh, and need helping your marriage, that link is there as well. Or you can go to marriage, disciples.org, marriage disciples, plural with an s.org, and you can find your way to us also find it on Facebook as well.

sounds great. And we'll throw all that in the show notes for you guys who don't need to remember it, make it easy for you to, to just click on it, Greg and Julie, thank you so much for, for what you're doing. Like I said, we're both fighting the same war. I think we're trying to reverse that cycle of divorce and truly marriage and the family are the building block of society.

If that crumble. Then we have no hope for the rest of our culture. And so the work that you're doing literally is saving the world. So keep it up. Thank you so much for, for making time. I could talk with you for hours and hours, but, uh, but we'll have to close it there. So thank you so much for your time.

Oh, thank you, Joan. God bless you. And the work that you do as well. so many takeaways, but just to mention too healing, your wounds is critically important. If you want a great marriage, I often say that you are the lid on your marriage. Your marriage will only be as healthy and happy as you and your spouse are individually.

And so you need to heal on a personal level. If you want a great marriage next, you can't rescue your marriage alone. If you, or, or someone, you know, really needs help, just go to the Alexander house.org, again, the Alexander house.org. You could also Google that and you'll find Greg and Julie, and you'll see what they offer, especially their marriage disciples program.

As they mentioned in the. If you wanna buy their book, you can just look it up on Amazon marriage 9 1 1, or you can just click in the show notes. So we have a link there for you and you can, uh, buy that on Amazon. We're also raffling three copies of the book. It's a random giveaway for anyone on our email list.

So if you wanna join to be eligible for that giveaway, just go to restored ministry.com/. Three zero again, that's restored ministry.com/thirty. Scroll down to the form, fill in your information, just a few questions and then enter that's it. And you'll be entered the win. And if you're already on a list, of course, you're automatically entered to win and we'll choose the winners by November 20th.

So make sure to join the list. By then, and by joining that list, you're also gonna get a free ebook on how to cure loneliness. You're gonna get exclusive content from us. And when we drop a new article or episode, you'll get that no spam, just really good content. So join our list. Like I mentioned in the show, if you know, a couple who really needs Greg and Julie's book and you can't afford it, they can't afford it.

Just reach out to us, go to restored ministry.com/contact. Again, that's restored ministry.com/contact. Tell us about their situation and we'll be happy to help. The resources mentioned during the show notes at restored ministry dot. Slash 30. Thank you so much for listening. I really hope this was useful for you, especially you out there who are struggling in your marriages, or, you know, someone who has, I hope it was useful for you.

So please share this episode with someone, you know, who is in a really difficult marriage who could use the help that G and Julie offer. Always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#029: Stories of Impossible Marriages Redeemed | Leila Miller

Struggling spouses often feel like they have two options: Stay married and be miserable or get divorced and be happy. Thankfully, there’s a third option: Healing your marriage.

Leila Miller shares stories of hope from her new book, “Impossible” Marriages Redeemed: They Didn’t End the Story in the Middle. It features 50 stories of broken marriages that have been healed and more.

By listening, here’s what you’ll walk away with:

• Common things that breakdown a marriage and common things that heal a marriage

• What to do with suffering in your marriage

• Extreme cases where separation may be necessary

• What’s at stake in a culture where divorce becomes rampant

• Resources and practical advice to heal a broken marriage for struggling spouses or anyone who loves or leads them

Plus, enter our random giveaway to win the book! We’re giving away 3 copies. Details at the end of the episode.

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links above and below, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

Buy the Book

“Impossible” Marriages Redeemed: They Didn’t End the Story in the Middle

Links & Resources

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Podcast #002: How 70 Children of Divorce Have Suffered | Leila Miller

• Resources for Struggling Marriages

  • The Alexander House

  • Retrouvaille Retreat

  • Peer Counseling: MarriageResponders@gmail.com

• Books & Research:

  • The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce: The 25 Year Landmark Study

  • Code of Canon Law, 1151-1155: “In all cases, when the cause for the separation ceases, conjugal living must be restored.”

  • Familiaris Consortio

  • Primal Loss: The Now-Adult Children of Divorce Speak

    • Get the free digital copy here

    • Buy a physical copy here

  • Study: 1/3 high conflict divorces, 2/3 low conflict divorces

• Follow Leila Miller

  • Facebook: Leila Miller

  • Website: LeilaMiller.Net

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

We live in a culture where so many marriages are weak, they're broken. And so many of them end in divorce. Everyone knows this. In fact, I bet, you know, a couple or maybe a few couples that are going through a really difficult time in their marriage right now, or maybe they're even getting divorced. And it leaves all of us feeling kind of hopeless about love and marriage, especially if you're a struggling spouse.

If you're someone who's in a really. Difficult or painful marriage right now, but that's also true for people who come from broken homes. Maybe your parents are separated or divorced, or maybe they're just going through a really tough time in their marriage. It can leave us feeling pretty hopeless about love and marriage and kind of the results of all this, where this all leads is that many of us feel like there are only two options for a struggling marriage, stay married and be miserable, or get divorced and be happy.

But thankfully there's a third option and that is healing your marriage, but is that even possible to prove that it is possible today? I speak with Layla Miller who compiled the book of 50 stories of broken marriages that have been redeemed that have been healed. And we're diving into those stories, especially the stories where the marriage seemed the most hopeless, where it was just really, really in bad shape yet.

Thankfully it was redeemed. And by listening this episode, some of the things that we talk about, some of the things you're gonna get out of it, we touch on some of the patterns, some of the, the factors that led to the breakdown of the marriage, and then some other factors that led to the recovery of the marriage.

We also talk about what to do with suffering in marriage. Like what do you do? When marriage gets hard, we talk about this extreme and intense cases where there's abuse, or maybe there's infidelity. That's just continuing on. Talk about what to do in that case and how separation may actually be the right step to eventually hopefully healing your marriage.

We touch on what's at stake in a culture where divorce becomes ramp. And then Layla gives some practical advice and some resources to heal a broken marriage for any struggling spouses out there, or anyone who just loves or leads them. This episode is for three types of people. One it's for anyone who comes from a broken homeless parents are separated or divorced.

So maybe they're just going through a really rough time in their marriage, or they just don't have a good marriage. It's for you. It's to help you believe that love. Can actually last and also there's some practical things that you can do if marriage gets to a point where it's really bad, where it's really painful, it's, it's really a difficult marriage.

It's also for struggling spouses, anyone who finds himself in a difficult marriage right now, again, lots of hope and some practical wisdom for you. And then also for anyone who loves or leads, uh, struggling spouses or people who come from broken homes, young people come from broken homes. There's so much excellent content and it had so much hope.

So much wisdom. I know you're definitely gonna benefit from this. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you cope, heal, and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce or separation. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 29 and we're almost at the end of our love and relationship series. The research shows that the biggest effects from our parents' divorce are experience in our romantic relationships.

Why is that? Basically because we don't have a roadmap for love. We've seen a broken model of love and marriage. And so when it's our turn, we feel lost and we struggle in numerous. In our relationships. And so we're bringing you a roadmap, actionable tips and expert advice on, on a find and build authentic love.

Before I introduce my guests, I wanna tell you about some exciting news. We're now accepting questions for the show. That's right. You can submit your questions and we'll answer them on the restored podcast. They'll be answered by me or by my guest. And you can ask anything. Maybe you. Stuck or you're unsure about how to handle the pain or, or the challenges from your parents' breakup.

Maybe you're just unsure of how to begin or continue down the path of healing. Maybe someone you love, or someone you lead is going through their parents' divorce and separation. You need to know. How do I help them? Whatever your question is, we'll give you specific and practical answers right here on the show.

So we'd love to hear from you. Here's how you can submit your question. Just go to restored ministry.com/ask Joey again. That's restored ministry.com ministries, just singular slash ask Joey. Just fill out the quick form there with your question. And then as we're able, we'll answer your question on the show.

I'm really excited about this. We look forward to hearing your questions and answering them on the show. So go ahead and submit your questions today@restoredministry.com slash ask Joey. My guest today, Layla Miller is a speaker and an author of four books, including the book that we're gonna talk about today.

Impossible marriages redeemed. They didn't end the story in the middle. In episode two, you may remember, uh, hearing from Layla, we spoke about. Her book titled primal loss, the now adult children of divorce speak. This is kind of the sequel to it. So to speak, we'll get into that in the show. Lela writes and she speaks about topics like marriage, family, and sexuality.

She's been married to her husband for 30 years. They have eight children and 10 grandchildren. She's a frequent guest on national radio. She's had television appearances and has quite the engage Facebook following as. She is a passionate Catholic Christian. And so naturally she speaks from that perspective.

And if you're not religious, as I frequently say, I just invite you to go into this episode with an open mind. You're gonna get a lot out of it, even if you don't believe in God, uh, or you don't see things the way that Layla sees them. And I have to say some of the stuff we talk about today may make you uncomfortable.

We talk about some really unpopular truths that really need to be talked about. So it may not be easy to hear, but honestly, it's actually helpful. It's hopeful and it's even freeing, especially for struggling spouses for struggling marriages. So give this a listen through you will not regret it. Here's my interview with Layla Miller.

Layla Miller. Welcome back to the show. Thank you, Joey. It's so good to be here with you again. It's been, uh, it's been a while since we spoke. And last time we spoke, we talked about your other book, primal loss, the now adult children of divorce speak. Now we're talking about this book, impossible marriages redeemed.

They didn't end the story in the middle, and this is a different book than primal loss, but it is related. How is it different yet related? And what inspired you to write this book in the first. Well, when I wrote primal loss, it was a pretty dark book, uh, as you know, yeah. Um, there's a lot of heavy material in the, the hearts and minds and lives of the children of divorce.

And I knew when I wrote that book or when I compiled those responses to my questions, that I would need a little something. Um, at the end of that book to make people not feel completely hopeless. And so I, I had a small chapter that had stories of hope, which were not the, the children of divorce, but rather people who had come through difficult marriages either themselves or their parents and had, um, or had those marriages redeemed in the end.

And so that chapter, which was chapter 10, um, was a small part of the first book. , it was really appreciated by my Bishop, Bishop Olmsted, and also some of the priests who said, you know what? We could use a whole book of those stories because we deal with people in crisis marriages all the time. And if we could have a book to hand them, that would be really helpful.

So I said about. Doing that doing just that. And I got, I just collected a bunch of stories and, um, Iowa was a little slow. It took me about three years to get it out there, but finally I did. And, uh, so that's the Genesis of, of this follow up book was just a need to, to inspire, um, the people who right now.

Don't want to get to that point where their kids would be, uh, children of divorce. And it is, it's very inspiring. It's very hopeful. And like you said, different in that sense from PRI loss, which was very heavy, but I, I found it incredibly refreshing, uh, As someone who comes from a broken home reading about how these marriages truly were redeemed and you know, they're not perfect.

No, no marriage is, but they're really, they turned a corner and they're in a much better spot. Now I'm curious for people who pick up the book who read it, what's your hope for them? What do you want them to get out of it? So kind of the theme, I think is the same. That's the theme of, of Christianity in general, which is that if we are not a people of redemption, then we are nothing at all.

And so when the church. Stands for, and is the, you know, the greatest champion of marriage or, or is supposed to be, this is what we mean. We mean that when the cross comes and the cross will always come, uh, we know that redemption is not far behind. And so if we keep our faith, whether it's in, um, just the everyday pitfalls of life, Itself, but especially in marriage, because marriage is the foundation of, of society.

Keep the faith, understand that this is about God's promises. This is something supernatural. You can get to a place where there will be redemption. Uh, so, you know, if that's, that's kind of the, the theme of our lives and it really should be the theme of our marriages is that we know what our God can do.

And if we throw it away or throw off our cross before. He is able to work through grace in us. You know, we don't see those miracles. We don't see the ending that he had planned. So that's kind of what I want people to keep in mind is this is always a life itself. And marriage is, is a long haul process.

It's not, uh, something that we try to figure out quickly or in the moment it's always about, you know, through the cross to redemption. And if we cut that short. Everything will go wrong. It's not God's plan. So that, that's kind of, my hope is just we, we wanna read these and see, this is just, this is life itself.

This is how God works, and we need to cooperate with him. And you said marriage is the foundation of society. I wanna touch on that for a second. Before we get into the C of the book, the question really is what's at stake. Cuz some people say divorce is really not a big deal. Like really not a big deal, but what happens to a culture?

If, if divorce becomes ramp. So it's an interesting question because I even after writing or editing primal loss, I hadn. Fully envisioned or put that together in my mind of what it looks like to have a society where so many millions of children come from broken foundations and I was on, um, a Jeanette, uh, Williams Jeanette bank, Vic Williams show on 10.

Couple years ago, I think. And she put it together for me as she's interviewing me. And she was talking about the fabric of society. And, you know, if you pull at a little bit of the fabric of something, it'll, it'll kind of get messed up over here. And she said, imagine, you know, you've got the entire. Nation or an entire culture where you've got these tears and rips, but it's throughout the entire country, you know, it's, it's, it's our culture.

And so if one story has so much is fraught with so much dysfunction and, and difficulty and pain and darkness and. Heaviness and, and, um, inability to know what to do or how to, how to act or all these different things that we, we, we encounter when we talk to, or understand the heart and mind of the child of divorce, you multiply that by millions and millions of people.

and you can start to see why it's, why we have the society we do right now, which is so disjointed. So disconnected, chaotic, confusing, um, wounded, broken. I mean, all these different things that we, these adjectives we could use. It's societal, it's, it's all the way through the fabric of society and you cannot.

This full, beautiful tapestry or this stable society when you've got the foundation being broken people. I, I don't think anyone would argue with that, that the world is very broken right now. And so I think you're right to focus on the source of it, which is the breakdown of marriage and the family. Cuz as you said, it is the building block, the foundation of society and that's.

Really what we're all about at ReSTOR. So I'm happy you're championing this message and getting it out there. Let's get into the book. You broke it into two main sections. Would you explain the first section is the larger section, and that is 50 stories of marriages. Either the spouses themselves are discussing the marriage, or it's a child who is talking about, uh, a difficult marriage that their parent, their parents had.

Um, but these are stories that all got redeemed. So really D. Problems in the marriages and yeah, probably probably more difficult than your average marriage out there. That's breaking up because most marriages, I believe are pretty low conflict. I mean, I'm sorry. Most divorces are pretty low conflict. Um, statistically, yeah.

People just get unhappy, you know, they wanna move on, but these stories that are redeemed, um, are the. Gosh, the things that most people would say it's very justified to leave. For example, um, alcoholism, uh, there's pornography addiction. There is, uh, financial ruin infidelity, lots of infidelity. So these, uh, mental illness too.

Um, so those first 50 stories take us through either again, from the perspective of the spouses or the children, how. They got through it, how they overcame it and became stronger redeemed. It saw the miracle. And so they're hopeful. Very, very hopeful. Mm-hmm the second section is also quite hopeful in my opinion, but these are the standards.

So there's 15 stories of spouses who are standing for their marriage vow. even though the other spouse is gone and that is very unusual. And, and that's why people, they really raised their eyebrows at that. They're like what, you know, somebody's voluntarily staying single and lonely and alone when everybody tells them to move on everybody, I'm, I'm talking even in the church, you know, just move along, you know, get your enrollment, move along.

Yeah. Find that new romance. But these standards are really taking their vow quite seriously. They really meant what they said on the altar. And they're carrying across that is heavier than most crosses. I would imagine out there, um, because they're getting ridiculed on top of being lonely, but it's, the stories are just so beautiful.

Like you, you see the holiness in these people and you see that even the abandonment has made. Even more holy and, and, uh, you get really inspired by these stories as well. And, and there's a reason that we would want to have a witness of such people that will keep their vow, their sacred vow. Until death, as they promised it's, it's beautiful and heroic.

And of the, the marriages that were redeemed in that first section, uh, which of them seemed the most hopeless. And, and what happened? Tell us the story. Yeah. Well, there's quite a few that seem so hopeless. Uh, but the ones that I think there are a couple in there that had even gone so far as. Actual civil divorce and remarriage, and then had come back from that.

So not only adultery and some other issues, but also just literally actual civil divorce. And, um, one of 'em was, you know, this, this couple that's actually still married today. I think they're married 55 years now, but, uh, her husband had. Multiple affairs. They were very devout when they got married, he, they kind of started to just be a little lax in the practice of their faith.

He began to have an affair. I think this was in the seventies, you know, sexual revolution had come or about, he came back for like two weeks. She got pregnant during those two weeks. He left her again. I mean, so she's got these little kids. Finally, he says a few years later, I'm divorcing you. I'm just never coming back.

I'm gonna marry this other woman. I mean, all these things are happening and this woman is just shell shocked, you know, but at, at the time she's still very devout and she's thinking, what do I do? Well, it's still kind of in this time where people thought, you know, in the, in the seventies, people still kind of thought, especially Catholics, you know, that worked devout.

Not gonna leave. You're not gonna get an enrollment and none of that. And so she didn't, so she, she kept going and she kept being faithful and just waiting and praying and praying the rosary for her husband. And, and eventually he came back. He came back the second time and, uh, I, I think he, he might have left one more time.

But eventually when, even when she was told by the, the first priest, this is kind of interesting to me, the first priest, the priest that, that married them, told her at first, no, you have absolutely no, no grounds for annulment. And so she's like, okay. You know, so she went along the second time he left the same priest said, oh, you know what?

You do have grounds for enrollment. Cause I think like 10, 15 years had passed and the culture had changed and the culture in the church had changed. She went to her spiritual director who was father John harden, who is servant of God. He's going to be, you know, canonized, God willing. And he said, no. He said, no.

In fact, he said, I just came back from St. John Paul second. Obviously he wasn't canonized then, but he said, I just came back from Rome and he just saw JP two pick up a, a stack of annulment papers from the us and just threw them back down on his, his table. And he said enough. And, um, so she decided to stay faithful and he ultimately, after all the prayers and all the forgiveness that she provided him, and they had to think a total of seven or eight kids, he came back and they now for the last.

Probably, I don't know if it's 15 or 20 years now have been very, very happy. They have like 32 grandchildren. They live in a, a very, um, wonderful Catholic community. And it just shows the miracle of God's grace. If you, if you keep your vow. And keep praying for your spouse and keep forgiving and, and a miracle occurred.

It was, it was pretty, it was a pretty amazing story. Yeah, it's unbelievable. And you know, I can't imagine how painful those years must have been for, for her. And just how many times perhaps she just wanted to give up. Absolutely. And it's interesting, you know, that when she first, when he first left, what went through her mind was.

Gosh, I think, I think she was only 24 the first time that he left and she said I'm, I'm young. And, and it was right around again, the, the late sixties then. And, uh, she said, you know, sexual revolution was happening. She's like, I, I, I, I don't wanna be single my whole life, but at the time the culture, see, here's the safeguard of the culture in the church.

They all said, no, still, you know, her community wasn't in, you know, divorce. Wasn't still a big thing. Um, it wasn't. It was, it was still frowned upon. And then of course, in the church, as I said, her, her priest said, no, you're not gonna get into annulment. So that pressure was brought to bear to be faithful.

And nowadays that's gone. That's completely gone. So, um, she in the meantime had become so holy that by the second round, she was already determined to stay faith. Wow. No, it's an incredible story and very heroic on her end, especially just going through all those injustices. I wanna speak about the, the standards, the, those abandoned spouses, uh, what motivated them to, to stay faithful to their wedding vows?

Mm, well, it, it had to be a special grace because again, there's nothing, um, surrounding them that would would say to do that. In fact, every single voice. From friends, family, the church, the culture says to not do that, there is something inside people where they are. They have such integrity that when they take a vow, a sacred vow, they there's something in them that cannot.

Break it, and they, they have the feeling that, you know, when I said for better or for worse, you know, in sickness or in health and by the way, sickness can also mean moral sickness. Then I, I meant it. They meant it. And so some of them were so, so devastating. I mean, it is devastating and it's devastating when nobody seems to be on your side and you seem to be the one that's being shamed, but, uh, you know, they have the grace.

Of God, they had the teachings of the church, whether or not, you know, a lot of people in the church still follow them. And really, you know, with a little research, they also found that the church says specifically JP two, again, we go back to the, the Saint, you know, he said in familiars consortium that these people who stand for their vows need to be and should be seen as witnesses.

And as heroes really in the faith and that they need the support, the full support of the community and the church. And so that gives them courage, you know, to know that, but it's, it's very difficult. It really is just a conviction that they have occasionally they'll find other standards and that really bolsters their, um, Their commitment and their, um, um, belief that this really is the way that Christ would have done it.

And in fact, it's the way Christ did do it, because think about it. He was the ultimate abandoned spouse and he did stay faithful. Until his death and, um, never once wavered in his faithfulness. So they really have conformed themselves to the cross and to Christ himself. And they just find that within, and it just has to be God's grace because there's no earthly reason why they would do that today.

I, I remember in the forward of the book, the, your author, the author who wrote the forward, he said they have found a way to love someone who has become unlovable. And I personally, like he said, I think that makes them hero. It is heroic and, and that's the model that Christ gave us again. He was biblical, right.

He loved us while we were still unlovable while we were still in our sin. And marriage is supposed to be a reflection of that. and we forget that, that it's not about, well, we're gonna love someone until they become unlovable. And then we're gonna kick 'em to the curb. And if we do that, what are we showing our children?

You know, I love you. I love you. I love you. I love you, UNC unconditional. I made, you know, I made this vow, your, you know, your father or your mother, and I love you too, just as much. And then later on, oops. Oh, dad became unlovable. Mom became unlovable. I'm done with that person. What does that show us about?

Not only, uh, what could happen to us, right? Yeah. And so the insecurity of the children forever, but it, what does it say about God? If, if, if that's your model and you see that happening with your parents and, and, and they represent God in your eyes in so many ways, you start to doubt God, too. So, so it's very heroic to be the one who does the uncommon thing.

And that's what these people did. Absolutely. And like you said, as a child of divorce and just speaking and working with so many children of divorce, when you see that, that, you know, someone can leave you who, who loved you at at one point, um, it really makes you doubt almost everything. Because it's like, well, what is secure?

What won't break apart. If, if the family is the most basic tribe, the most basic form of security, if that falls apart, then we really go through life questioning everything. Right. And that was the biggest shocker to me. Because again, I, I remember one of my, uh, the well, Alicia Hansen, I, I, um, had dedicated my, the primal loss book to her because she was kind of the inspiration for that.

Cuz she opened my eyes to this. Uh, I remember her saying, I always wonder. You know, why you had confidence Layla in the way you do. And, and it just never occurred to me to feel insecure about life. Hmm. Um, and then I recognized through the, obviously listening to the answers of so many adult children of divorce who seem to really be really put together on the outside.

And I realized what goes on inside. And I thought, my goodness, I don't know how I could withstand it. It, it. Mind boggling, but it's a completely foreign experience to someone who has an intact family. We cannot understand that type of, um, insecurity because everything that was your foundation was shattered and taken from you and split.

And I always have to keep reminding myself of that. You know, this is a new, a new thing for me to know, because it, it, I did not go through this unnatural breaking apart of my identity. So yeah, it's, it's. It's very difficult. It is what children are seeing. Mm-hmm and then, you know, we always go back to what's wrong with this generation, you know, they don't wanna commit.

They don't, they don't seem to, they seem to be wandering. They don't seem to have any purpose and, okay. Well, how many of those have come from shattered foundations? So many it's it's unbelievable. And one thing you said about vows, thinking back to something you just said a as a boy, after my parents separated and later divorce, uh, I remember holding promises in such like a high regard.

Like you don't break your promise and obviously a vow is different than a promise. It's a more serious thing. But, um, but yeah, I remember that stuck with me. It's interesting. You mentioned how, you know, those abandoned spouses, especially just. They know that their vow means something so serious that they're willing to suffer for it, which man that, that takes guts.

That's, that's very heroic. I think it's almost unheard of today. I don't know that we even talk about that anymore, because I do know that in the past, you know, you see old movies or old books and it was always like, you know, a man's word is his bond and people really. Honor was honor was much more important than happiness to a person, um, when we had our priorities straight and when God was truly the center of, of most people's lives and experiences and you're right, like now who talks about.

Keeping promises or it's not even a thing really. It's it's it seems to be nothing we even discussed. So that's interesting to me that you even say that, that, that was, that really struck you as a, as a kid or a young man, cuz that, that is true. We don't talk about it. We don't think it's a big deal. It's like, well, you know, I, I said it then, but I don't mean it now.

I mean, what's the big deal I need to, I, I change, I evolve, right? Yeah. But boy, it used to be that you made a promise and that was who you. if you broke that, that means you, you were dishonored. Yeah. And there was good positive pressure to keep those promises, which is what you alluded to before. I wanna talk about those extreme cases, because whenever you talk about this topic on social media or do interviews or write articles, people criticize you saying that you're telling spouses who are in really super difficult situations where there's abuse or even the threat of death to, to stay in those situations.

So. Again, for the record, we did this last episode too. Would you clarify kind of what you're saying to those spouses in those situations? Absolutely. As always I say this, I say exactly what the church teaches because the church, we always fall back on do what the church requires or what the church says.

And the church says that in cases of, uh, danger, In cases of an unlivable situation in cases of, um, unrepentant adultery, you may physically separate. Okay. That that's what is allowed physical separation is permitted. Um, it should be with the permission of the Bishop, but we won't go into that because no Bishop holds to that cannon in America.

So that's a whole other story. but. But, you know, it it's, it's allowed because nobody is saying that you have to stay and be abused, however, can law says something else. It says, well, first of all, we also know that that doesn't mean that a marriage has ended simply because someone is abusive. The marriage is not dependent on what someone is doing to you, you know, 10 years in or 20 years in, or if they become an alcoholic or if they.

The marriage is dependent on what happened that day of the wedding vows. Anything else after that is across in, in the marriage. And, and again, we're not gonna get into how do you evaluate a, a true impediment to what was a valid marriage, but what Canon law says is that at no point basically, um, here and I can even, I can even quote it, which, which is always helpful.

In all cases, this is Canon law, uh, numbers 1, 1 51 through 1 55 in all cases. When the cause for the separation ceases, conjugal living must be restored. Okay. So the point is we've always been about reconciliation. We've always been about forgiveness. If it gets to the point where those problems cease to be those problems anymore.

Reconciliation is required, but physical separation absolutely is permitted in those circumstances. What isn't permitted is, oh, I'm not married to you anymore. I'm going to just go ahead and move on. Yeah. And for anyone who doesn't know what Canon law is, is basically church law. And so that's what Laylo was, was reading us there.

Mm-hmm but man, that is very counter cultural. , it's something that we don't talk about a lot, but as you said so beautifully, it's all about the reunification of the spouses, the healing of the family, bringing everyone together. And if your book proves anything, it proves that that is possible. It's not just some lofty idea that some people, you know, across the ocean made up very true.

And in fact, so I have, you know, how many 50 of those redemption stories. I get, there were plenty more. I hear about them every day. I get emails, you know, and even you look around in your neighborhood, I guarantee you that the older married couples and the people married for a long time, you know, they had something that could have led to a divorce.

There is no couple who is not going to have a serious cross mm-hmm statistically almost impossible. There might be a perfect couple here or there, but I've never met them. So, um, So this idea that, well, you just found the 50 people who really overcame some difficulties. No, most people don't try. Most people.

When they come to those crosses. And so what I'm saying is there's a lot of silent people, everywhere, millions who have overcome really bad things, or even just standard annoying misery, you know, some people are just miserable and they, they can overcome that. Or even if they don't have this perfect, perfect romance, love bloom, you know, butterflies in your stomach forever for 55 years, which that's not really what God intended anyway is never what the promise was that they can get to a point of content.

Even if the person is imperfect, even if they feel like they didn't find their quote unquote soulmate, which is another, you know, annoyance to me to think of that, we, we think we have to find someone that's perfectly suited for us or we haven't, you know, we're unable to. Yeah, exactly. Like, I mean, are we unable to have marriage then?

Unless we find the perfect person, then why would Jesus expect that almost every human being on earth who reaches adulthood? Naturally be married. Um, if we have to find the perfect, perfect spouse, that doesn't cause us any trouble. So, um, so all these stories exist out there. They're they're in every family.

The only difference between people who have a long marriage and get to that point where they are just ha have a beautiful ending, really. The only difference is that they chose not to get divorced at whatever particular difficult time there was. And they continued to work. Yeah. Those two parts they didn't give up and they continue to work.

Cuz if you just keep where they are, it will eventually deteriorate even worse. Exactly, exactly. Which is what the people in the book found out. I mean, they were the, the thing I did when I started editing these, these stories about halfway through, I thought, you know what? These are, these are conversion stories and I hadn't really thought of it that way.

They're talking about how they changed, you know, cuz a lot of 'em are, you know, the, the spouse that was supposedly, you know, the one that was wronged and they're talking about their interior change that actually led to a renewal of the marriage. Yeah. Even though maybe they weren't the one with the addiction, they weren't the one with committing adultery or having the mental illness or whatever it was.

And they began to. Focus more on their relationship with God than their spouse's sins. And so then they would renew themselves and they would become holier. And as they did that, they were able to forget all their resentments and what I'm, you know, I need him to change this way and I need her to do this and they became.

Almost saintly. And, and with that came a forgiveness and there's the key. There, there is a key to every one of these stories, which is forgiveness. And I can't even explain how that, that is the thread that goes through all these stories of redemption of very terrible, terrible issues in the marriage. The ability to forgive and love.

and then it ends up changing the, you know, the quote unquote bad spouse. So is, it was fascinating. It really were. It was, it is conversion stories, stories of God's grace. I don't know how people would. Things worked and redeem things again, not just keeping the status quo, but redeem things if they don't have forgiveness and, and the grace of God.

Yeah. And it's a slow work and that's, I think something that we struggle with a lot in our culture, we want everything. Now. We want things change immediately. We want, I mean, Amazon prime, for example, like if I have to wait three days instead of two, I'm like frustrated, why isn't that package getting here sooner?

Absolutely true. And, and that is a real problem today. In the past, we didn't have these quick exits when we're miserable. So in the past, you didn't have no fault divorce, which is a greased exit ramp. And you, you know, someone who wants a divorce will always get a civil divorce. There's nobody who doesn't get one.

If they want one, it's just done. It's a court case that is always predetermined. So you have that quick exit ramp. And then if you're Catholic, you pretty much know that you. Get an annulment too. I mean, I'm not saying everybody does, but boy, we have a pretty high rate. So when you have those assurances, that, and these are these, I call 'em the two major exit ramps.

These two greased exit ramps, then there's nothing keeping you, like you said time, it takes time. Well, there's nothing keeping you for maybe, oh, it might take four years, five years, 10 years, 20 years to get to the point where God is gonna show you what he's doing with your marriage. And so we, we, that's why I said the subtitle, you know, the is, is they didn't end the story in the middle because if you end God's story in the middle, you're not gonna get.

The beautiful part that he wants you to see. Absolutely. And if you walk out of a movie in the middle, you're gonna think it's a horrible movie. Yeah, exactly. And it's not gonna make sense. Yeah, exactly. No, it'd be so confusing and you don't see the character transformation that that is possible. And you know, we're not naive.

We don't, we know in every case. It's it doesn't happen, but, but like you're saying, there's so many cases where it does, but even in those cases where it doesn't, you can say true to, to that promise. So, so many, so many beautiful points. I wanna talk about suffering, cuz that's really at the core of everything that we're talking about, uh, in the book, an important point that you make is marriage involves suffering and, and you say the weight of what we are promising is unknown to us on our wedding.

Powerful. Would you elaborate on that? Yes, absolutely. And, and there's a beautiful exoration that used to be read at the beginning of every Catholic wedding, which pretty much elaborated on that and said that, you know, everything in the future is hidden. It's hidden. You don't know what it is. You're, you're kind of taking this on trust.

And so we take this vow, we have this idea. That, especially now. I mean, we have this romantic view of marriage. We have this idea that now we've been completed. now we're, um, with this person we love, and now we just get to kind of rest on our laurels and, and, and enjoy this bliss that we have cemented here today.

It's quite the opposite. What you've done is you've. No matter what comes in, in, in life, which could be anything from, you know, a cancer diagnosis to death of a child. I mean, there's so many different, terrible things that could happen. We have promised that we are not going anywhere and we're going to love each other through it.

I will love this person. Actually. It's only a value take. Right? You make the vow to the other person to God. I will do this thing. I don't know. What's. Probably we can all guess because we know life, you know, it's going to hurt, whatever it is, is going to be cruciform. It's going to be shaped like a cross.

That the reason we take the vow, we would not have to take a vow. If we thought everything was gonna be good from here on in, you would not need a vow. You would stay because you want to stay. The only reason we take a vow is because there are going to be times where we don't want to stay anymore. And the only thing we have to fall back on is this promise that we.

That's it. So 50% of that vow is bad, right? In, in sickness in bad times when we're poor 50% of what we're promising is negative. Wow. And that should show us. It's very simple too. It's a simple vow, but it is pure. It's a pure vow and it's a vow that is sacred, but yes, there is no idea. You have no idea past that threshold, what you're gonna encounter.

And isn't. I, I don't know how to describe that. It's it's, um, breathtaking. This is huge. So when we say, uh, you know, when we get to a across and we say, well, no, I didn't expect that. Well, what I mean, that was, that was your vow. So. I wish we still had that exoration at the beginning of each marriage because it, it hammers home that idea that you are promising something you're promising something to a future that you cannot see, but that's how profound this is.

It's it's absolutely stunning, but yeah, we, we don't think of it that way anymore. We think of it as this person's gonna fulfill me and make me happy. I remember hearing, uh, I think it was Chris Hanick, uh, speaker author, who, uh, was telling the story about. And his marriage, his wife had been abused as, as a girl, sexually abused as a little girl.

And a lot of it bubbled up years into their marriage and she just needed time where they weren't having sex at all. Mm-hmm , it went on for, you know, a few weeks and he was strong and he was saying, okay, I love you, honey. I can do this for you, but then it went on for a month and two months. And. Three months.

And I think it went on for six months or perhaps even a year, a long time. And, uh, you know, being a Catholic, he was praying and he said, Jesus, like, I like, I don't, I didn't sign up for this or something along those lines. And I think he heard Jesus say, actually you did . But, uh, but what a difficult thing to go through, but you know, that promise that, that vow, the more serious version of the promise, uh, was, was what held.

To be faithful, of course, and to endure in that really, really difficult time. And you're you're right. We all need that because it's too easy to just go, uh, after the easy thing, the convenient thing, the comfortable thing. Well, yeah. And you have to trust that God is doing something here. Like it's not that he's just arbitrarily, you know, creating misery for you, by having, you know, some suffering come into your life this way through your spouse or through your marriage, he has something he's doing.

And it's profound, but he's not, you know, we're called to be patient too. I mean, he's not just gonna suddenly do this self gratification thing and just give you what you want instantly. He's gonna make you really prove that you love him and you love your spouse and that you, you will get that reward, but it's not, not necessarily gonna come right away.

We know this. And, and what you said about him and his situation, that is the lived reality of these standards. You know, they, they see their spouses oftentimes go off and, and get remarried and have these big romances and. And they're alone, you know, they're sleeping alone and, and they know they'll likely die alone, even.

Although the last story in the book, the very last story was just absolutely amazing because it was a, the story of a woman who waited, you know, everyone told her to just move on. I mean, he just, he had gone on, he'd had another child with another woman. I mean, all these things happen and she just said, no, I made, I made a promise.

I made a vow. And, uh, and he recently passed away and all she had ever done was pray that could I. Help him get to heaven. And it was like three days before he died. The, she, she got called into his bedside cuz they had never actually officially divorced. So he hadn't, she hadn't seen him in 13 years. Wow.

And um, she was able to forgive him to hold his hand, to pray the rosary, to get him last rights, to whisper in his ear that she had forgiven everything. And she sent him off to heaven. You know, she sent him to God with the Sacra. As his wife. And she said, that's all I ever prayed for. That's all I wanted as his wife.

So there are these miracles that God will, will work, but you will have to possibly wait till the end. And yes, you might be lonely and yes, you might have a cross, but what are we asked to do that? Our Lord did not already experience before us. I always say we, we have a God who, I don't think I said it, but you know, we have a God who went before us in all.

So as lonely as we feel, as, you know, abandoned, as we feel as, as, as unjustly, as we're treated, Christ had all that, but way more than we ever will. So, so it's a beautiful, the cross is not something that we should just think of throwing off all the time, but that we should say. This is a gift, you know, let, let me, let me become holy through this gift and you truly need supernatural strength to be able to endure this, like you alluded to already.

So, wow. What, what a powerful, powerful story. Uh, what were some of the, the common themes of the patterns that contributed to the breakdown of the marriages, uh, in the book that, that you noticed when you were compiling it, you, you already touched on them a little bit. You said things like pornography, financial issue.

Mental illness, affairs, all that. But what, what other things would you add? Mm-hmm I think the key thing in all of it that started to really break down communications, you know, between the spouses or, or starting to, uh, turn them against each other, is, is this resentment, you know, this idea that you're not doing what I want or need you to do, or you're not who I thought you were.

You're not what, you know, not doing what you're supposed to be doing. And in many cases, yeah, that's true. But then they. Re, you know, have this resentment over it rather than, okay, Lord, you know, what, what do you want me to do with this? How can I forgive this person? But in instead it's this I, I need, I want, and so you start to resent and resent and resent, and then no matter how your spouse might be trying to even improve or try to help, not enough.

And there's something, I mean, I was gonna say women understand this. We women do. Tend to really want to change our husbands, like kind of control the things that they do. And, and, and we probably do know what they should look like and what it should be like and how they should act. Um, and so we're just trying to help , you know, in a lot of ways, but, uh, but it's something that we do and we end up.

Emasculating our men. I mean, that's just, that's just a common theme in this culture. It's a it's that we're swimming in the so of feminism and we don't even realize it, uh, which is a whole other topic for another day. But, but we don't even know it. We don't even realize that we're, we're emasculating our men.

And when we do that, he spirals down because all a man really wants to do is please his wife and, and know that she's easily pleased. Well, we're not easily pleased. So it's this, this vicious cycle that can start and, um, And then he pulls away or, you know, or, uh, we double down or whatever. So there's a lot of that instead of pulling back and just being with God and saying, you know what?

This is about me and God, it's always about me and God. And then the whole year we get the less, we will look to that person to fulfill us. And the more we will just say, well, how can I love that person? How can love that person? God fulfills me. God fulfills me. So. The resentments, the lack of communication.

Another thing was, you know, the threat of divorce, like one of the husbands was like, as soon as she told me, she used to threaten me with divorce. He said, as soon as she said, I'm not going to divorce. You. Everything changed for him because it, it, it gave him that safe space to, to be a sinner, but to try to improve and be allowed to improve.

And he had been an alcoholic and all these different, bad things had happened. And she just took that off the table and that released such a burden from him. So we don't wanna use the, the DWORD as a, as a weapon because that will really crush. The love, you know, and the, and the, and the trust and the commitment.

And, um, so, so things like that, you know, resentment using words as weapons, and back up, go back to God, take care of your own, you know, stay in your lane, get holy, and then your spouse will come along. Usually. Yeah, that's so common that, you know, years and years before a divorce takes place, that threat of divorce that we haven't really talked about that in this show, but I experienced that in my own family.

And I know, uh, other people listening right now, restores audience, especially we've yeah. We've experienced that threat and it is very, very lethal. But on the flip side of what we just talked about, uh, what were some of the common themes in the recovery of those marriages, right? Yeah. Adoration. Oh my gosh.

There's plenty of stories where they go to, you know, adoration of the blessed sacrament. Uh, prayer. Prayer is huge. The rosary, um, I know all, not all your audiences is Catholic, but you know, prayer, you know, scripture, uh, follow Christ. See what he did when he encountered difficulties, they would look upon their spouse, uh, with love.

You know, with love, seeing their wounds, seeing the spouse's wounds, you know, they got pornography addicted husbands. My goodness. Some of these poor guys got addicted when they were children. Hmm. It's not cuz they wanna be, you know, so there's this heart for. For the spouse that's, that's suffering forgiveness again.

Huge, huge thing is forgiveness to if and, and Christ said himself, if you do not forgive others, you will not be forgiven. If that's the one thing we should remember it in front of our minds, always no matter who we're dealing with, we have to forgive because we will not be forgiven otherwise. Uh, we have this idea that we can just, um, be righteously, indignant, be, be right.

You know, I'm right. Well, he was bad or she was bad. It's like, Okay, but you're not perfect either. And what if, God, didn't forgive you. So there's a lot that, you know, we're not used to forgiving people in this society, but it is, it is huge in the recovery and the turnaround. So it's not just, okay. We can stay together.

It's that, there's something more beautiful that comes later than even was at the time of the wedding. And that's what people don't understand either you get you're more in love after you get past those crosses. So forgiveness is, is huge. One of the things that I noticed that, that you alluded to you even explained well, is that, uh, each spouse taking ownership of how they contributed to the breakdown of the marriages, not just blaming and even in those cases where one of the spouses was truly more to blame.

Maybe they had an affair, they were dealing with an addiction. But, but the, the other spouse was able to admit that they played a role and they, when they took ownership of their part, it seemed to help so much and contributed to the healing and the recovery of the marriage. Yeah. There's an astounding story.

And it's the first story in the book. And the woman discovers that her husband has been having an affair probably for years. And she is enraged, absolutely enraged and betrayed. And of course, I mean, every feeling she becomes. An alcoholic. I mean, she starts to drink heavily. She eventually, again, this is all in the story, but, uh, she eventually through prayer, through God's grace, she is able to forgive him and not only forgive him, but she starts to see that she had in her words, other, this is so interesting how she puts it, but she says, I, I realized that I had.

Found fault with him for so many years. And I made sure he knew over the years exactly what was wrong with him. And I hand, you know, I, I criticized and I I'd belittled him and I emasculated him and I ensured that he would, you know, that all his broken pieces, you know, he took, he took himself to another woman who made him feel.

So it's not, it's not that she was saying he wasn't at fault for adultery because he was 100% that's his choice. But she said, I wrapped his broken pieces up in a bow and handed him over. To a woman who was treating him nicely. And, and the interesting thing about that story is she, I mean, she completely forgave him and then she absolutely owned her own sins against her husband, which were, which were pretty serious.

That's pretty serious thing to do to your husband. But he went on to have another affair a few years later and it took almost no time at all for her to forgive him again. Wow. And she got the grace of seeing him with such love. Such love and they are in a very happy marriage right now. So, you know, you think of these kids, they could have been, they could have been just completely destroyed by a divorce and, and blaming and, and, and, you know, everything that comes after that.

And, and now they're, they're in an intact. Very happy. Very Catholic family. Wow. Wow. Incredible. And to the, for those of you listening right now, who your minds could go to? Oh my gosh, that woman is a doormat. that? She's not a doormat. She's forgiveness is not saying that what someone did wasn't wrong or that it didn't matter that didn't hurt.

Oh my goodness. It's just releasing them of, of that debt really similar what they owe you because of their wrong actions. So yeah, she's, she's no doormat. That takes incredible, incredible strength to do something like that. Yes. And, and not only is she not a doormat, I mean, the, the, the beauty of it is she's a very happy woman.

So, you know, people say, oh, she's beaten down. And she's like, oh no, no. I, I happen to actually know this woman and she is, uh, incredible. And she's incredible. She's got a great family. So, so yeah, so her, her relationship with God is intimate. She is very, very close to God in prayer and she is a strong and a very joyful woman.

So it, it is it's, it's just really neat to see. Beautiful li I wanna get your advice and encouragement for, for different groups of people who are listening right now, the first struggling spouses, spouses who are in a really difficult marriage in a difficult situation, uh, they may be thinking that there's only two options, you know, leave and be happy, uh, or stay and be miserable.

Uh, what advice would you give to them and, and what could they practically do to rescue their marriage? Mm, right. There's always a third option, which is to faithfully live out your. And become a Saint like that is if you read any Saint story anywhere, they had incredible suffering, incredible hardship.

And a lot of it was unjust. In fact, you know, once you get to that point of sanctity, most of it's unjust. I mean, uh, and they have such joy, so there is another option and that is to, it is very simple, you know, it's to simply. Live out your vows, live out your vows. God will take care of the rest. God will deal with, you know, if something needs to be dealt with, he will deal with it in the end.

And, and even in the, you know, before the end, but you do your small. Steps of faithfulness and the practical things, you know, there are, um, I would say there's not a lot, unfortunately out there for people who say I want to stay married and not divorce, and I want help. Uh, because a lot of people say, well, you know, past this point or that point, you need to get divorced.

So you always have to make sure if you, if you're going to find a counselor, even if it's just for you, it might just be for you, but it might be marriage counselor for both. That is your stipulation ahead of time. We are, we don't wanna talk about divorce, take divorce off the table, help us help me. But if you're gonna talk about divorce, I don't wanna hear it.

You have to find someone that respects that there are places. If both, if both spouses want help and they're struggling, uh, the Alexander House is the, I recommend that to everyone. They do such good work. Um, I'm good friends with Julie and Greg Alexander. Retrovi which is a program for very difficult troubled marriages, or even people who are already divorced that's a, a, a weekend.

And then there's some follow up on that. People can email marriage responders, gmail.com, and that will lead to some people who will try to kind of. Peer counseling, assess the situation, try to give you some general ideas of what you can do or where you need to, to look for help. But most problems are rooted in the same types of things.

You know, anger, pride, addiction. I mean, there, it is not like there's. Such unusual things out there that people will never know how to deal with them. It's it's usually been dealt with and people, people can find ways to help with those situations. Make sure you are around people who affirm your marriage and support marriage rather than picking aside.

That's massively important. Pick your friends wisely. I was reading a book in a classic Catholic book from the 1940s. That said, and this is way before divorce was popular. That said that a woman's girlfriends are some of the worst influences on a, a marriage on a wife, because she will look to what her girlfriends are SA are saying.

And I've found that to be even more true now because I've been around for a long time. Now I've been married 30 years. I'm 53. I've been around a lot of women. Married women. And yes, what women's friends say will influence them to, you know, if they say no, honey, you know, let's, I will help you stay in your marriage.

We we're gonna figure out this. How, how, how to make this work. Tell me the best things about your husband. Tell me it's good qualities. You know, I'm not gonna, you know, help you get a divorce. In other words, Versus, oh my gosh, he did what, what you don't deserve. Are you kidding me? You need to leave.

Absolutely. You deserve to be happy. God doesn't want you to ever suffer, you know, all this stuff. So there's a huge difference between types of girlfriends. Make sure if you're a woman, you have the right type of girlfriends. Yeah. So those are some of the practical things you can do and make sure if you're, if you're a friend or a family of a struggling, uh, couple that you do not drive a wedge between.

The husband and the wife, husband, and wife is a sacred bond that God formed. Uh, you have no business putting a wedge between them. You can help, uh, facilitate forgiveness or help, you know, help 'em find a good counselor help 'em, um, get, have 'em cry on your shoulder. And, uh, Sometimes it requires humility.

And I, and again, I'm not saying doormat, you know? Okay, fine. Again, UN repent adultery. That's one of those things in Canon law because there's issues of disease and issues of, you know, that's a really bad situation. Yeah. You can, you can separate, you can separate, but forgiveness is always an option and it should always be part of our, our Christian, uh, you know, our tools.

That's what, that's what Christ expects of us. Beautiful. So, yeah. Yeah, there's a, there's a lot, there's a lot in there, but, um, but the, but the healing and the truth of things, you know, it's all still very simple. It's all very, uh, it's not, it's not overly complicated Christ in his message, you know, when he told a parable or, or sentence here or there, it was very simple words.

So we have to not overcomplicate things. Beautiful. And I know you put in the back of the book resources for, for couples or for friends who wanna help their friends who are in a struggling marriage. So guys pick up the book, Layla, thank you so much for being here. If people wanna follow you, how can they do that?

Yeah. My website is Layla miller.net. That's L E I L a miller.net, and I'm also pretty active on my, um, My personal Facebook page, which is always public. I have a writer's Facebook page too, but the personal one is, is always going. That that's pretty much, I I'm, I'm somewhat more a wife and mom than, than out there, but, but that's where you can find me.

Perfect. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for putting together this book. I think it's gonna help a lot of couples who are struggling, but also people like me and people who, uh, are listening to what ReSTOR has to say. People who come from broken homes, we wanna believe in love. We wanna believe in marriage and this book gives us a reason to do so.

So thank you so. Yes, it's a, it's a, a shot of hope. So I, I hope that's what people get out of it. And thank you so much for having me on Joey. It's been. Wow. That interview gave me so much hope. Even when I was listening at, before we launched it, it honestly made me tear up. It was so beautiful that love can be so faithful so deep, and it could even fight through the worst of situations.

It just made me believe that that it's possible that even those. Marriages can be redeemed. And if you wanna hear more of those stories, you can buy Layla's book, impossible marriages redeemed. They didn't end the story in the middle to do that. Just go to restored ministry.com/ 29. Again, that's restored ministry ministries, just singular.com/two.

Nine, just scroll down. You'll see the book click on that link, and then you can check out on Amazon. We're also giving away three copies of the book randomly. We're giving it away to, to anyone on our email list and to join, you can go to restored ministry.com/ 29. The same link. I just mentioned, just scroll down to the form, fill it out, and then you're entered the win.

It's as easy as that. And if you're already on our list, of course you're entered to, to win one of these books and we'll choose the winners randomly. On November 1st. And if you join, you'll also get a free ebook on some practical ways that you can cure loneliness. You'll get exclusive email content. And then whenever we come in with a new article or podcast episode, we'll email that to you.

We really don't send many emails, no spam, just really solid content. So join our email list. The resources mentioned during the show notes, it's at restored ministry.com/two nine. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful, go ahead and subscribe and share this podcast with someone that you know who could use it always remember you are not alone.

We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#028: Tips for Building a Great Marriage from an Amazing Couple - Part 2 | Joe & Maria Keller

If you want to build a great marriage, follow the advice of couples who’ve done it. Learn from them.

Like last episode, that's exactly what we do in this episode with the most beautiful married couple Joey knows, Joe and Maria Keller. They offer a roadmap for marriage and hope for those of us from broken families who often feel lost in building love that lasts. By listening, you’ll also hear:

• What destroys a marriage and how to avoid those things

• Habits and advice on money, faith, and communication

• How Joe and Maria handled the pain of losing a child

Story of Baby James Keller | 3+ million views!

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Links & Resources

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• Full disclosure: If you purchase through the links below, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• Books & Research:

  • The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce: The 25 Year Landmark Study

  • Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence: The Secret of Peace and Happiness

• Contact Joe & Maria Keller

  • Email: Spanishkellers@gmail.com

• Get a spiritual director

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you wanna build a great marriage, follow the advice of couples who've done it. I said that in last episode, learn from them. And just like in last episode, that's exactly what we do in this episode. I interview an amazing couple that really has the most beautiful marriage that I've ever seen. I've ever witnessed.

And I've learned so much from them. They've helped me. To believe that love and marriage can last because I doubted that after seeing what happened in my own parents' marriage and seeing kind of that broken model of love and marriage, I doubted that I could last and, and by their example, by their example of my guests today, they've truly given me a roadmap for love and marriage.

And, and so that's what you're gonna get out of this episode. Two, you're gonna get that roadmap for love and marriage. And you're gonna get that hope that love and marriage can actually last because my guest, Joe and Maria, they prove that we're gonna talk about what destroys a marriage and how you can avoid those things.

We'll also discuss their habits and advice on different topics, like how to handle money, why it's important to. Be on the same page when it comes to your deepest held beliefs or your faith, they talk about the benefits of having a mentor or a spiritual coach. We get into communication tips, like when you should actually avoid talking to your spouse about big issues and how to approach your spouse in the right way.

When you need to talk about some important, we get into the heavy topic of suffer. They talk about how they've handled suffering in their life, specifically, how they've handled the pain of losing one of their children, just really sad. Uh, but at the same time, beautiful story of how they navigated that really difficult part of their life and how they found peace in the midst of so much pain and how you can as well.

And lastly, they give us encouragement those of us who maybe doubt that love is possible for us, that it can last for us, that we can have something different than what we saw in our parents' marriage. So lots of good stuff ahead. So much practical wisdom from a truly amazing couple. So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you cope, heal, and grow. From the trauma of your parents' divorce or separation. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 28 and this is actually part two of two. Last episode was part one, and that was episode 27.

It's obviously best to listen to that first, but if you don't, that's totally fine. You're still gonna get a lot. This episode, we're in the middle of our love and relationship series. And the research shows that the biggest effects from our parents' divorce are experienced in our romantic relationships.

And why is that? Basically because we don't have a roadmap for love. We've seen a broken model of love and marriage. And so when it's our turn, we, we feel lost and we struggle in numerous ways. In our relationships. And so we're bringing you a roadmap, actionable tips and expert advice on how to find and build authentic love.

My guests today are Joe and Maria Keller. I'm not gonna give you their full bio. We gave that in episode 27. So just go back and listen to that. If you'd like to hear more about them, they're just fantastic. Have they have such a beautiful family? They've six kids. One of them passed away as you'll hear more about in the interview and man, well, such a beautiful, beautiful family.

Something that I. Truly want to emulate in my own family, in my own marriage. And for those of you who aren't religious, there is quite a bit of talk about God and faith. That's just so core to who Joe and Maria are. It's really at the core of their joy of their happiness, they would say. And so really important to, to hear them out on those parts, because again, it's so core to who they are.

It's so core to the amazing marriage that they've built, uh, without it, if you take out out of it, it. Wouldn't be what it is. And so if you're not there and when it comes to faith, your relationship with God, you're totally welcome here. And even without those parts in the episode, you're still gonna walk away with a lot of great, uh, advice, a lot of great encouragement.

So if you can keep an open mind, definitely keep listening. Also at the end, I wanna tell you about a virtual retreat that you can attend specifically for adult children of divorce. This is a healing retreat that you. Take in from the comfort of your own home, it's gonna span over, uh, so many weeks and it's just like an hour and a half at a time.

So more info, uh, at the end of the show. So here's part two of my conversation with Joe and Maria color picking up right where we left off in episode 27. kind of moving on the flip side of this. What have you seen really destroy marriages? What, what should we look out for little things? Very subtle things I would say, but just, you know, the flip of what she just said.

I mean, you know, little biting comments, when, you know, you might develop a relationship with some of the kids and you know, daddy's gonna let this happen, but mommy said, no. And then the kids are smart enough to play on that and, you know, right. Without even knowing it or maybe, you know it and you just don't care, you're slowly letting a wedge be developed between each of you.

And that's not cool. And it's not cool for the kids because you're. giving in them, you know, giving into them. But at the same time, uh, the worst thing is, is you're creating a wound, what Maria mentioned and, uh, uh, which festers, and let me say this, as you, as we all can probably recognize there, there's something real.

That's attempting to destroy, uh, marriages, families, and there's a real evil in the world. And if someone doubted that. Uh, a year ago, look at some of what's developed in the last year. I mean, there is a real, real life, uh, evil around all of us and, and that evil does not like love. Okay. And, and frankly, um, tries to destroy that love.

And if the family can be destroy. Let's face it, evil wins. All right. And, and that's where the frontline frontline attack is at. And we need to be mindful. And we do that through prayer and frankly, our guardian angels. Okay. We have a, we have a gift they're called the guardian angels and whether people know it or not, they have one and it doesn't hurt to say, Hey, help me out here.

Hey, I, I need, I need a hand here. And Hey, guardian angel, were you talking to guardian angel? My wife or my kids, and help me out with this issue or this situation, and watch, you'll see a difference, but again, you know, you could be a policeman or, and have all the weaponry in the world, but if you don't use it or good, is it, we have a great vocation in, in our case.

It's the, the sacrament of marriage. There's wonderful graces that come from. All we have to do is ask. And that requires a little humility and sometimes an apology as we talked about. And sometimes some of these other things. So those are certainly some things to keep in mind, I think. Yeah. And I think, I mean, it's not most of the times when there is a divorce or separation or, um, it's not that Tomic bomb that just one day went off.

Mm-hmm , it's usually a lot of like little. Infidelity is that happen in the quiet of each other's hearts? And so whether it is, you know, snippy comments or gossiping or not sharing or sharing a half truth or exaggerating, if you not, if you just let all the slip by, it just gets easier and easier and easier to live that lifestyle of, of the seed, you know?

And so maybe it's not necessarily that, you know, you're, you've been unfaithful to your husband, physic. But you've already been unfaithful on your heart many times. And so I think it's really important to, um, use the sacrament of, of confession and, and, and just recheck it and think like, you know, many times like, well, what is it that first attracted me to this person?

Or what, you know, let me make a list. You know, my, it doesn't have to be like a physical respect, something that is important. Like, what are the like great attributes that I love about my spouse and, you know, I, I truly honestly believe that Joe helps me to be a better person, you know? So I think it's important to, to think of, of those things, of how, how you're better together, what, how, how you're better together.

And I think like one thing that I realize also here it's, it's important to take care of each other and it's not like, you know, she's a trophy husband or I'm a trophy wife, but I think it's, you know, when, when you're dating you like take such great care of like looking nice. You know, shaving and making sure, like, we SHA for the guys of course, but like, you know, like, or us like, you know, getting our hair done or looking nice.

And then it seems like, and I see it so many times people get married and then it's like, they think that tell me their husband went blind and then like in Swiss there, or, and it's like, there's nothing wrong with Swiss, but it's like, come on, use it for the gym and you can wear like something different.

You know, like it's important to at least treat your husband the same way you treated him when you were dating, at least, you know, so if you took the time and the energy, maybe it was 10 minutes, maybe, you know, this is something that my mom used to do and that, I don't know that Jon knows, but I do that, you know, I said a timer, um, about like 10 minutes or so before I, I think he gonna come home and I try to.

Brush my hair before he comes home or, and, you know, like maybe like put a little bit of perfume or, I mean, just little bit nice that he comes home and he does not find a woman that is like completely exasperated and at the edge of like a nervous breakdown, you know? And it's like something like, even though two minutes before I got there, that's what was going on.

Exactly. but it's important. You, you, you don't take each other for granted just because you're. Doesn't mean like, oh, I got them now, you know, like, oh, I got her, like now it doesn't doesn't matter. Like whether I'm nice or not nice, whether they have manner. No, no, no, no. Use the same manner. She's like, you know, big exquisite, like in that, in that, in that relationship, like risk just really, you know, I mean, to me, it's something silly, but to me, it's, it means a lot the way that your treats me with so much respect and, and love and.

You know, I mean, the manner she uses to me, it means a lot, you know, you can say the same words, but she's using different manners, different looks different, you know? I don't know. So I think it's really important to watch with the little things. It can either make it or break it. Absolutely. Cuz that's like you guys both said really well, that's where it starts.

That's where the breakdown in a marriage starts. But it's also where you can build that really strong foundation to build upon. It's really beautiful. I wanna talk about different areas of marriage. I I'd love to hear from you. The habits that you've developed in these areas. And, and some advice you'd give to, to other couples listening right now, or anyone who really wants to be married one day, uh, the first area is money.

So this is one of the top causes of divorce. It can be a very difficult, intense topic for a lot of people. Uh, what habits have you developed and what advice would you give. Boy. It's so funny. You ask here we are 15 years into it and I can tell you, uh, Joey, one of the things that we all see right now, when you go to the grocery store, it seems like, you know, your, your dollar gets a little bit less than it did, you know, just, just a few months ago, if you're buying for meat, you know, paying for meat or this or that.

I remember a few short years ago. It seemed like when Marie would make a meal, it would last two to three nights. Um, early on maybe four, the kids are older and now that the kids are older, it's kinda like, you know, you're, you're, you're cutting down your own ration. You're ING your, your spot and you see your son, who's 11, he like two, three times more than you.

And you're kinda like, oh, and there's what happened to you and there's no leftovers. So my point is, is that. It does certainly stresses, stretches, you know, things thin a little bit, if that meal that you, maybe you were hoping to get another night out of, you got one night and not only that, but it costs more money.

So I think the common theme of communication is really important. And one of the things that Marie and I do, you know, we, it sounds really good, but we try to put it into practice. It's called living a spirit of poverty. So, you know, Maybe you, you know, doesn't mean that, you know, you don't never eat ice cream, but maybe, you know, you have ice cream once a week.

Uh, maybe there's, maybe there's a special feast day or celebration. You have it twice a week, but I can't believe that's coming out of my mouth, but my wife has trained me well but my point is is that, uh, especially as we get older and maybe you're not making that much more money, every. It seems like it's getting stretched then to talk about a budget and try to live a budget.

And before the month starts say, Hey, this is what we can anticipate is our income. How are we gonna spend those dollars? I can tell you in the last week our dishwasher went, went bust and it's not like we had money in a dishwasher account. You know, we had to find a way to, to, you know, where's that money gonna come from and where are we gonna sacrifice?

You know, the cost of that, you know, in terms of our budget. And then we look into the future and we say, well, maybe this bill can wait, or maybe we pay a portion of this. Uh, like when the HVAC and AC busted, you know, a month and a half ago, uh, we'll put half on a credit put a year. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, but the point is is you, you have to talk about those things.

You don't put 'em under a rug and thankfully, um, you know, Maria gets it, we have a conversation and we put together a plan and we, we try to make it work and we pray and. You know, a little side job thing came together and, and God always provides, you know, I remember one time earlier in our relationship, I, I did the bills on a particular night.

I said, Maria, I got great news. And she said, what? I said, we have 58 cents in our checking account. And oh my, she , that's not good news. She stopped me. She says, okay, why, why is that good news? you're like me, Maria. I said, because we pay a lot paid all our bills this month. there you go. So, anyway, my point is, is that, uh, uh, communication, certainly some prayer.

But putting, having a plan. Yeah. I think it's really important. Like so many it's so prevalent nowadays to make like a, uh, how do you call them? Like you contract before you get married? Uh, prenuptial agreement. What? Prenuptial? Oh, at prenup, I think like when people go into marriage like that, they're already going in with the divorce mentality.

Yeah. Okay. What if it doesn't happen? What if it doesn't work? Like, how are we going to this? You know, how are we going to like, do this? So honestly I would have, like, if you have one of those, I would make a bonfire and the two of you together, rip it up and burn it and just burn your shifts. So you cannot come back.

I mean, this is like great advice, you know? Um, I think it's not my money or his money. We talk about it, like Joe said, and I'll give you an example, you know, um, we were, you know, we were like considering getting like some, some yard work done. And I was getting some quotes over the phone and this person was really, really persuasive, just really pushy, I should say.

And you know, I'm, I'm not, I, I take my time, especially when it comes to bigger things. I mean, I, I don't have to, you know, we don't have to talk about like, you know, when Joe goes to Lowe's and get this or that, or, you know, if I go to the grocery store or, you know, go shop clothes for the kids, I mean, that's like normal things.

but I told the man, I said, you know what, let me give you a call back. I'm gonna talk to my husband and you know, and he was a part, he like you, like in this day and age, you need to ask her permission, like, are you serious? And I said, I'm not asking for permission, but this is our money. This is our investment.

And so when there's something that's out of the ordinary, you bet we're gonna talk about it. I mean, you know, I mean, does Joe know what I'm doing during the day? And do I know what he's gonna be doing? Of course we do, because we love each other. And because we control each other because we love each. And if there's certain, you know, things like bigger, you know, whether it's a bigger amount or out of the ordinary where, whether it's like, Hey, it's wedding gift for like an is getting married.

Well, it's a gift to both of us. Like we should talk about it. Oh. It's like, we wanna like make this donation for charity. Well, yeah, it's a gift to both of us. So I think it's really important to talk about it, to communicate until it's not his or. It's ours. I mean, you, you are one forever. You're a team. I love that.

That's great advice. How about faith? So, you know, some people listening, aren't people of faith, uh, some are. And so why, why is, yeah, it's so important to be on the same page when it comes to that, uh, to begin with. And we've talked about that in other episodes on this show, but, uh, but yeah. What are some of the habits that you've developed around faith and what's the advice you'd give to, to other couples?

Well, if I may just start by saying this, uh, you know, a person's faith. We all believe in something. Okay. Uh, with regards to faith, we might say, well, I don't believe in God. Well, your faith is that you don't believe in God, but so you have a faith. Uh, I, I would say to somebody that maybe doesn't have a faith in God to just be, be open to potentially that, and God, if you are, you know, it could be very simple.

It could be, it could be you alone in a room saying, you know, God, if you're there, show me, let me see. You know, open my heart in a different way, my mind in a different way and be open. If there's a result, one of two things is gonna happen. You're gonna wake up the same person you were the day before. But I, I, I would Gander to say that what's really gonna happen is that once you open yourself up to that, God is going to answer that.

And your faith will grow in a way you've never seen it grow. You'll see things differently. And then you'll say, oh my gosh, there's something to this. So with that is background, you know, the old saying that we've heard before, you know, family doesn't pray, you know, pray together, Grammy that pray together, stays together.

Uh, there's so much truth in that. And I can't give to my wife and I can't give to my guy, my family, if I first don't find a way. Ask God to enter my life and help me to be the best father and husband. I know all my faults, my wife, as you can see, um, is so kindly, uh, has some blinders on to a degree, but I know I, and she both know that there are many faults that I carry and, and thankfully I have a partner in life that helps me overcome myself.

Uh, but even bigger than that, I, I, you know, it starts with God and saying, Lord, help me with this because I can't do. And then it happens and it happens the next day and the next day. And there's some falling, like we talked about earlier and you get up and you keep at it. And before you know it, you see wonderful things develop around you just by making a little bit of effort.

So prayer, not just in the morning, but throughout the day. Let me tell you there's many times. And, and, and I'll keep, keep quiet for this, but there's many times. I think in any of our lives, but particularly as a father, you feel like you're on the front lines where things are tough, whether it's a work related situation, whether it's job insecurity, uh, whether it's losing your job and being out of work.

Okay. We've kind of been through a lot of it over the last 15 years. There's a lot of very difficult scenarios that all of us husband or wife, uh, or children are confronted with. And especially at those times, We need to dig deep and we need to ask, uh, for that help. Well, I think like why I don't think I know God is love.

And so if you don't have God in your life, it's gonna be pretty impossible to find true love. So that's. Number one. Um, if you don't have faith, I really surely recommend that you go on your knees and just ask God. They like every day, just for like 10 seconds, God give you the gift of faith. And he, he won't give, I mean, he's not gonna impose it on you, but he won't give you that gift of faith.

And then, um, you know, Jo has already mentioned how we wake up in the morning and, and pray together. Uh, we dress to the family, rose girls also as a family, but then two things that Joe and I do, we, we both have spiritual directors, which is almost like a, like a spiritual coach, like a life coach. You know, when you think of like all these people, like going on, like Nutrisystem or weight Watchers, or, you know, all these things and all of them have support groups or, you know, this.

You know, even like on, on America's got talent. I mean, all these people, like they have their coaches or their trainers. and I mean, for marriage and for life, for holiness, that is something that is much more important. And I mean, your whole happiness relies on it. And here we just pretend that we can just do it by ourselves.

It's unbelievable. So, you know, it's impossible. So every two weeks, Joe and I individual. Meet with the, as project director. And they, they really know us and they, they help us and we're just like super honest and it just really helps keep us on track. And then the other thing is we each go on a, uh, retreat, a weekend weekend, silent retreat once a year, we don't go together.

We go separate. And so it's a second retreat, completely silent course. It's like guided first and there's, you know, like mass. But it really, to me, it's like, honestly, it's like being on my table. Like I don't wanna go back. I'm like, this is like so amazing, but it really brings a lot of perspective. And like when you are outside, you know, of like, it's so difficult to see a circumstances.

I mean, I was just talking to Joe's sister today about one of her daughters and, you know, I, I told her, I said, you know, I think it's, it's very easy for someone to see something when you're outside, when you're like in the middle of the problem. You don't really baby. See it, you know? And so I think like when we take that step back and we go for a whole weekend, just dedicated it to God you, I mean, at least I come back home with lots of resolutions.

I'm super excited to. Start working, like putting another new brick in our marriage, like another new brick and like strengthening our foundation, like, you know, fixes this window in our family unit like this. I mean all these things and they're very precise and, and, and concrete, you know, it's not like I'm going to love my husband more.

I mean, well, I mean, how am I gonna love him more? Well, you know what, maybe I'm going to complain less when he leaves his like 30 socks, like laying around and, you know, I mean, that's something concrete. That's, that's how, you know, It's it's like when you, we say, oh, I love people in Ethiopia. So it's impossible.

You love people in Ethiopia because you don't live in and many times God's a, God asked us the murderdom of little pinches, you know, like he's not gonna ask us to give a life or the prot of Liberty of the United States. I. Most, I mean, most likely we're not going to be asked to do these heroic act, but he asked us to be heroic in the little things, you know, to be heroic, to smile when we don't feel like smiling to help each other out, to talk kindly.

Those are the little acts of, of love and faith and kindness that God is asking us. And honestly, God is so much more generous and what we could ever even imagine, or, or believe that if you just stray a little bit. You're gonna, your marriage is gonna be amazing. Honestly, the one thing I just wanted to add is that, you know, when things are very tough and difficult, the point I was trying to get at was, and I said it a little bit earlier, but I just wanna be very clear.

Sometimes the attacks are so intense and it's like the evil ones at your doorstep and you feel. You can feel the emotions, uh, the, the sense of it around you and you know, that there's a battle there. And sometimes we are no match for that. Okay. Uh, we are too small for that. And that's really when, uh, at least from my perspective, as a father, as a husband, uh, I really, I'm kind of begging and, and they come in the form of aspirations.

God helped me, you know, hail Mary holy Mary heal me. Dear Lord help me, God, mercy on me. Jesus, be with me, you know, and, and it's a fight. It's a battle. And sometimes just repeating those words, you're, you're also sending a message that, Hey man, you can't mess with me cuz I have the king behind me and back off, man, just back off and, and let me tell you, you will win that battle.

because God is with you and then you will be able to come back and, and get up and be much more stronger. And. And be able to love your, your, your wife and kids. So like, like Joey, our senses, we call him after this. Joey of course. of course he, he says hail Mary full of grace, punch a devil in the face. The next area I wanted to talk about is communication, uh, including conflict and disagreements.

Again, we talked on about this a little bit, but this is a really critical area to get right in your marriage. So what are some of the additional habits besides for what we touched on already that in your marriage, and then what advice would you give to, to young couples to developing habits like those?

You know, honestly, I can say, especially like, if people have gone through. um, divorced parents or, you know, separate parents. I can see a little bit of that in Joe. Um, like we might have some disagreement, like it's, it is almost like he's, um, I don't wanna say scared because he's not scared, but he's like, he really went quickly, wants to put the lid on, you know, And sometimes I have, um, it's not like it's good to talk things over.

Like it's not, you know, like sometimes if, if you like slice it over too quickly, like it just festers their, so it's, it's, it's important that people realize that having a respectful discussion or argument like. Keep in mind. He's very poor guy is married to Spanish, who is lots of fashion. And I talk with my hand, I talk with my voice.

I'm always like excited. You know, I couldn't tell so poor guy is like having like heart attack over like over heart attack, like, you know, day and day. Uh, but I think it's, it's important to be able to talk about things it's important to have strong feelings it's important. And it's interesting too, to get to know each other.

So I think it's, as long as you're respectful, as long as you're caring and loving, and it's really important that whoever who's a stronger one says, sorry, the first. And I wanna say it again. Whoever's the stronger one says, sorry, the first. And when you say two don't tango of 2, 1, 2, you know, so if you are in an argument, it's not because, well, she said, oh, well he said, no, no, you're in this argument because both of you want to be in an argument.

And so it's good to, you know, even if you like. So it's very through your close tooth and you're like, I'm really sorry, but it's like, but it's like, you know, you just put like a hurdle to pride and the other, it just catches the other person by surprise. Yeah. And it's just like, you know what, I take a break and it's good to like, like Joe said, like, you know, maybe like go, go for a walk or go little bit.

You know, father rocking. He used to say, you know, uh, many times like, you know, moms tell me that, you know, my baby is cranky because either hungry or thirsty or tired, well guess what? In the end, aren't we all like little kids. I mean, it's, it's happened to me so many times. Like I'm thirsty and I'm just a bad mood.

I, I just have. A glass of water, like, oh man, world. I mean, this life suddenly like, looks so much better. yeah. Filling those basic needs. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Certainly when you have kids, like when Joseph, when you have stress from, from work or, you know, your, your coworkers, this and that, sometimes it's just like, like you just need a little, I mean, we're not, we're not robots.

We're people. We have emotions. We have our heart, we have and we're body and soul. So you cannot. She has on faith alone. I mean, we're, we're not spirits. So we, we also have to take care of our bonding needs, you know, not just the, the faith aspect, of course, as number one, that we're both body and son. So it's important to, to be arrested when you communicate to you not don't, don't start to, don't start an argument when you're like, you know, tired or hungry or there's, I mean, You know, maybe do it after lunch, maybe, you know?

Um, one thing that I, I was told is when I have to break down wrong, not, I always want to cover his ears and he doesn't hear this and it's like, um, they said, you know, when you hear something like difficult or something you discuss with your husband, like, make sure you first call him a little bit, like maybe like make it like a nice dinner, maybe like go on a date.

I don't know, like make it a little bit, so like, it's easier to talk about it. And the other person can feel like, although they might be hearing something difficult or, or challenging at the, on the other hand, at least you're getting your favorite meal. Is there eating this? Like the other half of them is thinking like, she loves me so much.

She spent like three hours in, in the kitchen, like making this cuz she knows. She knows how I like it so much. It's not like here we are, like the basement flooded and, um, you know, like here's the next school belt. And then let me tell you, like something like, we really have to talk because I nurse about to fall apart.

Well, right there is really not the moment to talk about it, you know? So I think it's really important to look for the right situation. Ask the holy spirit and then, you know, your biggest, um, ally is your spouse's garden angel. You know, I go to, to Joe's garden angel, a. um, it is something that actually Joe taught me to do when we were dating.

It's amazing. How many times, like he might say something and I'm like, oh, I don't even have to bring it up. and it's great because he thinks it's his idea. So it's even better. and the other thing I would just say, Joey is, you know, sometimes us, us skies, we wanna want to try to fix things. Sometimes just communication is just being a good listener.

And you know, if you don't have an answer, then there's been many a times I've told Maria I, you know, let me think about it. We could talk about it tomorrow. So it's, and it's great. He's, he's a great listener, great people person. So many times I go to him and I'm like, I don't know how to deal with this person or that person.

And he has CR I mean, because we are so D. Like things that just look like so much common sense to him. To me, it's just like a revelation and like, Thank goodness. it's beautiful. I wanna talk a little bit about suffering. We could do a whole show on suffering, but it can destroy a marriage. It, it really can.

How have you guys handled suffering? I know, I know you've been through a lot of suffering, but especially with baby James. Um, so talk about that a little bit, if you would, uh, how have you handled it and what advice would you give to, to couples who maybe are facing suffering right now or who will in the future?

I think it's just a matter. Of when not if thank you, Joey. Uh, well, on the 30th of August, um, this last we celebrated his nine year old birthday. He turned his birthday was nine years ago, this past, uh, August 30th. And without getting into the huge story, if you're, if your listeners go to, uh, YouTube and, uh, put in baby James Nicholas, they can, uh, spend 21 minutes.

We promise, uh, they won't be disappointed. It'll it? Share our lives and the story of our son, but very simply put, uh, we were blessed at the time with three kids, uh, and Maria was pregnant, uh, with number four and we went to a routine ultrasound and, uh, it was after that ultrasound that we were, uh, told that, uh, uh, our child has, you know, pretty severe defects.

And were was, were told that he wouldn't survive birth right at, at that time, we didn't know he or she, we found out later in the day, uh, because we wanted to pray for our baby by name. It turned out he was a little boy and he had a severe, uh, defect called osteogenesis and perfecto type two, which is a fatal, brittle bone disease.

And again, they said your child's gonna die birth, uh, or maybe live a minute or two. So I will say this, you talk about gifts. Uh, I'll never forget driving, uh, and down the driveway up to our home. I think my mom, uh, was watching the kids, uh, as we went to this routine appointment, which obviously wasn't routine.

I remember pulling into our driveway and, um, Marie reminded me, the kids were with us and I just looked at the house. We lived in, I looked at the yard, I looked at my lovely wife and the kids we had in the car. I said, Lord, you know, just take this home, take this property. Just leave being my wife and kids.

And if you can give us a healthy, you know, if you could let James live, that would be a great thing. But at that point, I just wanna say that, uh, you know, truly, truly, truly the gift of detachment was given to us because he realized at that point, no material mattered. What mattered was, uh, the people in that were in that car right there and the baby in her womb.

And, uh, it was a true gift. You can say suffering. Yeah. There was certainly some suffering knowing, and, and not knowing what might happen, especially for a mother that's carrying the child. But even through that suffering, let me tell you, there were so many prayers and graces and so many gifts, and it was the gift to really recognize and appreciate each other marriage.

The children that we had, but also the life that was in, in, in, in the womb of Maria and ultimately, uh, who was born, I don't wanna spoil the, the 21 minute video that your listeners are gonna watch, but, uh, truly, uh, he was a great gift. Uh, but yes, there was certainly moments of suffering there. And Maria can comment more on that.

Well, Joe is very strong. I'm not so strong. Um, so I suffered a lot. Yeah. Be very honest. Um, and even my, my dad told me recently, he said, oh, are, are you over it? And I said, dad, that's something that you never get over losing a child. And I'm smart enough to not, for example, like this video. I can't watch it.

Like, I mean, um, Joe loves watching it and I maybe watch it once a year, but that's, that's my capacity. I mean, I, I cannot watch it more than, and I'm smart enough that I don't, you know, on, we live in Chicago in this wonderful gray, long winter days that are just and ending, um, on those days I don't, I don't sit in front of a picture of James and put.

Sad music I'm on rap stuff. I mean, I'm smart enough not to do stuff like that, but it is. I find it it's like a hole you have in your heart. Like sometimes it's like the says of a prick and you can't even tell and you just go around and sometimes it's like your whole heart as a whole and it just happens, you know?

And so I think it's, um, you know, one thing that really helped me and it's not a book that is for people. I have lost a child or a specific suffering, but I recommend it to anybody who's maybe like 18 and older. Um, just because, I mean, I don't say younger than 18 because you don't get as much at it, but not because there's any content that should be censored at all.

It's a small little book and it's called trustful surrender to God, Cine Providence. And that book helped me so much, the small little. But it's so, so powerful. And it's, he's really realizing to put everything in God's hands and asking God, let me be at peace with whatever is your plan for me. And when you are, when you've gotten to that point, when you pray, let me be at peace, then you truly will be at peace with whatever happens.

And I think it's very important when you do have the. I mean, we're obviously very different. Like Joe was Tru my, my rock, but it, I was very, like, I was very honest. Like I cried plenty of times and you know, with my, with my head, of course, I knew that, you know, God is my father and he only. Gives us wonderful and beautiful things.

And his plan is much more beautiful than, than ours, but with my heart, with my heart, I was like, how in the world is this God? I mean, are you kidding me? This is, this, this feels pretty bad to me. You know? And so it was that, that pain, not, not, I mean, of course, of, of having a sex child. You know, as a parent, what you want to do is to protect your child to do as much as, as possible.

There's nothing you can do, but also having that strain between heart and head, how do you even, uh, unify that? So I think it's super important to, again, work on your friendship, spend time with each other. Again, if you, I'm not saying, you know, don't talk to your sisters and I mean, of course, like, or with your friends or, but it's really important.

Keep working on this friendship, because if I would've shared at the same level, my pain or with the same intensity or, or that frequency with somebody else, it would've been very easy to build a, an unwanted bridge with that person. And so it's really important to be together. I mean, Joe and I prayed plenty, plenty.

Um, through that time together, I think it's also important to figure out what can, what can help and not help. Uh, I know for example, in America, it's very, it's very traditional to help people out with meals, honestly, after James passed away, I mean, I was like, please people do not bring me meals because then you, I mean, I, I had just had a baby.

Like I, you know, I had all these little ones and if you take away my kids, if you take it, you know, if you, if you bring me the meals, then I'm just laying in bed, like sobbing all day. So I think it's important to communicate, to see what your needs are and to, to. Be United, you know, that's great advice in closing out.

I just wanna ask you guys, what word of encouragement would you give to, to anyone listening who really desires a beautiful marriage? They, they want love that lasts, but they may have doubts. They may doubt that it's possible for them because of what they've seen, what they've been through. And so what, what would you say?

What encouragement would you. To them? Well, the first thing I would say to every one of them is the, the reality that they are super loved. And I want them to look at their lives is though, uh, um, from the perspective of God who created them, if they can. Uh, and I know this might be bigger challenge for, you know, the folks that might not be believers.

God, uh, came down in this world and, and through Jesus Christ and died for each and every one of them. And if they were the only person in the world, God died for them. Okay. And God loved them. And it's important for each of them and in all of your listeners and all of us to, to understand at all times that we are super loved, super loved.

And if we can understand that. Um, uh, we can, we can offer that perspective and that same love to our spouses because our capacity to love knowing that we're super loved right. Is huge. But also knowing that we have this incredible partner, this incredible gift that's been given to us in the form of our wife, or maybe our husband and as Maria.

So nicely said the path to heaven is through that. And, and that's the great gift we have. And, you know, I was struck one time when I heard it, uh, um, something when I was a younger father and husband, where, where, uh, someone had, I read somewhere that, that the average person, the average father, uh, or husband maybe spends less than two minutes of time of genuine time, like eye contact with their child.

And I heard that, and it was kind of hard to believe and I'm thinking. That just doesn't seem right. So I kind of did a little self test and I realized as a young busy husband and father, um, I probably was, you know, not too much more than that statistic, uh, with my own kids and maybe even my own wife as, as crazy as that sounds.

Um, and as you get older, uh, um, and the kids stay up a little later. Your time seems to decrease, right, honey. Uh, so that's why, as Maria mentioned, it's so important to take some of that time, but I just think, you know, love comes in the form of not just saying, Hey, I'm gonna love someone more, but it comes in the form of different deeds and actions, concrete resolutions, and one of them for me, after I heard the statistics was just simply eye contact, looking at my child and.

Do you know how special you are. Do you know how special God made you? You are so loved. And let me tell you the, the smiles that come from their faces when they, you know, they love when he tells and then they love it. They, yeah. So anyway, that's so important. And then of course, uh, doing a little bit of that with your.

With your spouse and some spontaneous dancing and singing I know your voice might not be the best. I would say a combination of those little things, uh, go a long way. And, and, you know, we all hear the saying, don't sweat, the small stuff. Don't take, don't take yourself too seriously. You know what I mean?

You know, it really, at the end of the day, you know, you lose your job, you lose your house. You know, I don't think any of us have starved. Maybe we go a little hungry here and there, but listen, we're well cared for. And, uh, uh, there's nothing really ever, uh, too much to get too worked up over, uh, as long as you have, you know, your family and, and know that you're loved and, and.

Uh, you can pass that love onto your, your wife and kids. That's a, it's a really special thing. Mm. I was gonna say, you know, um, number one, I mean, dreaming, your dreams will fall short. I mean, the adventure of marriage with the right person is like amazing. I mean, that's why the beginning, I'll tell you again.

I never knew that I was marrying somebody so amazing. And I'm just, I mean, I, I'm excited every day to wake up next to Joe and, and get to know them more. I mean, I am excited. I mean, I'm, I'm gonna remind her. She said that tomorrow at five in the morning. I'm genuinely excited. Like when he comes home, like to spend time together.

Like, I mean, you know, sometimes I, I have to say like, I'm like go to bad. Like I just wanna, you know, I think joy asked me today, or yesterday later, what's about, I said, I just want everyone to go to bed. So you and I can be by ourselves. Like not to do anything next special, but just to happen to myself, I'm like, I just went out to myself.

I'm sorry, I'm selfish, but I'm like . Um, and I think it's like really important to, you know, like I said, like with the right person, you know, when people talk about their career, when people invest in university, they go on all these tours, they, you know, talk to a career counselor and they, you know, how much time do we really spend, you know, researching about marriage?

How much time do we spend. Getting to know the person we're dating and not just like talking about, you know, our favorite foods or let's do this and that. But you know, this is like, you know, I don't think this is like the right way of necessarily, but I had had a previous experience before Joe, like dating wise and it lasted for about like three.

And it wasn't too good. And so, and this was from a, from a, a young man who had as, um, who had assisted at Catholic school. And so when Joe started pursuing me, I felt to myself, well, I'm pretty busy and this guy was a total disaster. So I'm really not, you know, I don't wanna waste my time. Cause I was, I was pursuing two different majors, like I was super busy and this is like, keep in mind.

It's a big commitment, like on the other side of the world. So it are different. And so. You know, like week two or three, when he's emailing back and forth. I said, you know, before we continue in this, like back and forth with these emails, like, it's, it's great to get to know you, but I really need to know what you think of in this, like a 30 question list.

Like, you know, the pop contraception, premarital sex, uh, I mean confession, all these things, you know? And so I think it's really important not to have like a test that you give the other person, but it's really important that you. On these fundamental things, you're not going to change somebody. You're not going to convince somebody, um, invest in.

We make sure that you talk about these things. You know, we have our neighbors across the street. They never thought about traditions growing up and he doesn't want to invite the Easter bunny or Santa, like into their home. For example, she's, she's completely crushed, you know? So I think it's important to talk about.

Things that are important to you to get to know their family, to have a special director that can help you guide you and just not being afraid. I mean, just like I said before, burn your ships and then, you know what they said, there is like the place of no return. You better go forward because there's no place to get back.

And from every after every dark moment, I think it only gets better and better. You know, it's like the it's like wine. If you work in. You know, and it's only going to get bad if, you know, if you don't want to go go better. I mean, I always say we have a, a sister-in-law that was a little bit challenging and I was talking to my mom and I said, you know, if we love her very much, she's not going to be able to not love back.

And so if you're going to a dark moment with your spouse, you know, before throwing away blame or, you know, throwing around blame. Love that person love his balance. Very much with little details with concrete moments like Joe said, and the other person is not going to be able to resist. Love is going to start loving back.

Love conquerers though. No, I love it. No, that's that's great advice. And to everyone listening again, who's discouraged, uh, take heart. It's possible for you to get to the point where you can build love that lasts. And if you do those little things, if you find a virtuous spouse, because remember, as we've said many times on the show, The more virtuous the spouses, the happier the marriage.

So if you can build virtue in your life, those good habits seeking after what is good, uh, and find someone who's doing the same and do that together, uh, you're gonna have a happy marriage. It might be difficult at times you might suffer, but you will suffer will be difficult at times. But through those experiences you can keep growing, uh, like Joan Maria said really well, so you can do it.

You can write your own story. You don't have to repeat the pattern. That you saw in your family, which often runs generations long, but you truly can create a beautiful marriage. And to be that example that your kids and your grandkids will talk about Joe Maria. Thank you so much for, for coming on. If people want to, uh, connect with you, how can they do that?

Uh, I would say Spanish KES, yahoo.com is an email that we have. And, uh, uh, again, Spanish KES, K E L L E R S. Yahoo. They're welcome to, uh, ask a question or say hello. Or when they're in the Chicago area come, you know, say, say, meet the family. yes, there you go. We're real. You're that's one thing I'll have to remind people of this.

Isn't fake. This isn't acting, this is real, like really he did Joey for the record. Did not pay us to say any of this. We'll talk about that after. No, I'm just kidding. We wanna enjoy little controlled chaos. Uh, they're welcome to come. there you go. I love it. Well guys, thank you so much. And we'll throw all that in the show notes, the email, as well as the video, um, that Joan and Maria mentioned, you really should watch that I've watched it so beautiful and you can hear kind of how that story ended.

So guys, thank you so much for your time. I know it's valuable. Really appreciate you being here, Joey. Thank you. God bless you. It was great. Thank you audio. Man. I just love them. I seriously love Joe and Maria. Every time I go over to their house for dinner, or just spend time talking with them, it's just an absolute joy.

I, I always have such a great time with them and it's just so beautiful that the marriage they've built, the family they've built, their kids are great as well. And, and they're so real. They're so human. It's not. Their heads are in the clouds. They are very down to earth and they just love so much. And they're so joyful and so happy.

So I'm glad that you guys got to know them in terms of takeaways, Joe and Maria, to me prove what's possible for love and marriage. They prove that love can last. They prove that marriage can be beautiful, can be fun. It can be adventurous. You can fall more in love with your spouse. As time goes on all the.

It's just so beautiful to, to see a couple like them, because sadly it's rare. It's rare to see someone who, who has a great marriage. Now, if you wanna contact Joe and Maria, like they said, you can email them, uh, one correction though. It's Spanish Kells, gmail.com, not Yahoo. So Spanish. KES and KES is spelled with two LS, gmail.com.

We'll throw that in the show notes for you guys. So you can just click on it. If you wanna email him, feel free to just reach out with any questions you have or just to say, thank you for them coming on the show and sharing, uh, their advice and their story. If you wanna watch the video about baby James, you can go to restored ministry.com/ 28.

Again, that's restored ministry ministry says singular.com/two eight on the page. You can click to, to play the video about baby James. Keller, like I mentioned at the beginning of the show, there's a virtual healing retreat for adult children of divorce, anyone 18 and older. This is hosted by life giving wounds, Dr.

Daniel Meola. You may remember from episode nine, they're really one of the only organizations out there next to restored, and maybe a couple others that are producing. Content and resources for people who come from broken homes. And so this specific retreat is virtual. Like I mentioned, it's a series of evenings that are seven weeks an hour and a half each week.

They're on Thursday, evenings from 8:00 PM to nine 30 Eastern time. And it starts on October 1st. And the last night is October 12th. The cost is a hundred dollars, but if you're a college student and you actually get a discount, you'll only pay $50. So it's half off really good deal. The, the spots are limited.

So make sure to sign up right away if you want. In the last day to register is October 6th. So make sure you get in before that and to, to sign up or just to see the speaker line up the topics that are gonna cover, and then the whole schedule go to life. Giving wounds. Dot org slash online retreat. Again, that's life giving wounds.org/online retreat.

And if you don't wanna type that all out, we'll throw them in the show notes as well that you can just click on it. And I will say it is a Catholic retreat, primarily geared towards Catholics, but anyone can attend and you're still gonna get a lot out of it. And they'd be more than happy to kinda walk you through things if you're not familiar with Catholicism, but, uh, but just be warned that it is a Catholic retreat.

And that's the background that they're coming from full disclosure. I have not been on the retreat myself, but I've heard good things about it from people. That I trust. So hopefully that's a good resource for you guys. Hopefully that's helpful. Sign up today, or just go to that link to, uh, to learn more.

Again, that's life giving wounds.org/online retreat. As always, the resources mentioned are in the show notes of restored ministry.com/two eight restored ministry.com/twenty. Thank you so much for listening. You're the reason we do this. If this has been useful, please subscribe and share this with someone, you know, who could use it.

Always. Remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#027: Tips for Building a Great Marriage from an Amazing Couple - Part 1 | Joe & Maria Keller

If you want to build a great marriage, follow the advice of couples who’ve done it. Spend time with them and learn from their example and wisdom.

That's exactly what we do in this episode with the most beautiful married couple Joey knows, Joe and Maria Keller. They offer a roadmap and inspiration for those of us from broken families who often feel lost in building love that lasts:

• How to handle personality differences and conflict

• The #1 thing you can do for your kids and friends as a married couple

• The most important ingredients to build a great marriage

FREE virtual event from the Culture Project: Sign up or get details about the Restore Culture Virtual Workshop

Full disclosure: If you purchase the premium pass (optional) through the link, Restored earns a commission at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

Links & Resources

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Full disclosure: If you purchase through the link below, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• Books & Research:

  • The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce: The 25 Year Landmark Study

• Contact Joe & Maria Keller

  • Email: Spanishkellers@gmail.com

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you wanna build a great marriage, spend time with couples, who've actually done it. Not just the people who study it or write about it, that can be useful and good, but spend time with couples. Who've actually done it and learn from their example and their wisdom. And that's exactly what we do. In today's episode, I interview a couple that has truly the most beautiful marriage that I've ever seen.

They've inspired me so much over the years, and I've learned a ton from them about love and marriage. And so I want you to learn from them too, and I'm super excited for you guys to, to meet them. But why are we doing this in the first place? Why is this so important? Especially for people who come from broken homes whose parents are separated or divorced.

Basically because we lack roadmap for love. We've seen a broken model of love and marriage. And so when it's our turn, we often feel lost. We feel alone and we're unsure of how to go about building love. That lasts. Also, we may just be afraid of love and marriage to begin with. That was certainly my story because, you know, I saw how badly things ended with my parents.

And I knew that I didn't wanna repeat that in my own relationship. And I know that so many people like us feel that way as well. And so we need a roadmap for love and we need hope that love and marriage can actually last. And those are two things that I've gotten from my relationship with a couple that I interviewed today.

And so I wanted to share it. With you, we'll also talk about how they handle their personality, differences, how they deal with conflict between them. And they also give us advice about the best thing that you can do for your kids. And really anyone who knows you as a couple, we break down the most important ingredients to build a great marriage and they give encouragement for any of us who feel like maybe we can't have that.

Maybe we can't build a great marriage because of what we've experienced in our families. There's so much practical in this episode from this beautiful, married couple. Also at the end, we'll mention a free virtual event that we're doing with the culture project. You'll hear about how you can sign up for that.

The different talks we're given. We're given two talks, one for people who come from broken homes and anyone who loves or leads them. So more info about that at the end. So if any of that sounds useful, keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you cope, heal, and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce or separation. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 27 and this is part one of two. We're gonna just do one episode, but the interview went kind of long.

So we broke it into two to make it more digestible for you. We're also in the middle of our love and relationship series. Research shows that the biggest effects from our parents' divorce are actually experienced in our romantic relationships. Why is that? Like I said, at the top of the show, basically, because we don't have a roadmap of love.

We've seen that broken model of love and marriage. And so when it's our turn, we feel lost and we struggle in, in numerous ways in our relationships. And so we're bringing you a roadmap, actionable tips and expert advice on. Find and build authentic love. My guest today are Joe and Mariat Keller. Joe is number eight of nine children, actually huge family.

He grew up in Waukegan, Illinois. He graduated college with a degree in political science, with a focus in business and philosophy. He serves as the executive director of the Fox waterway agency. Although his dream job is being the best husband and father to his wife and amazing kids. Maria is a native of Spain.

She's the oldest of five children. And she moved to the United States after graduating from the autonomous university of Madrid. I was gonna try to say that in Spanish, but I'll spare you all my Spanish as pretty rusty. She graduated with a degree in business administration last year, she was actually promoted to the position of full-time mother, which she absolutely loves her greatest joy is spending time with her husband, whom she grudgingly shares with their children.

They've six kids, one who passed away as you'll hear us talk about in the interview. And you're also gonna hear some of the kids in the background, which I love. They have such a beautiful and real family. And for those of you who aren't religious there, there's a bit of talk about God and faith. It's just so core to who Joe and Maria are.

And it's true. The reason they would say that they're so joyful, but even without those parts, you're still gonna get a ton out of this episode. So keep listening. If you can keep an open mind and honestly you may be tempted to think when you're listening to them that this is fake, but it is not fake.

Like this is not. Them posing. This is actually real. And so anyone who knows them like me knows that they're just, they're so real. They're so genuine. And what you see is what you get. So here's part one of my conversation with Joe and Maria Keller, Joe and Maria, welcome to the show. I'm so happy that you're here.

We're so excited to be here. Thank you, Joe. It's great to be with you. It's no surprise to you or really anyone listening that there's a lot of brokenness in our world. There's a lot of broken marriages and broken families. And for those of us who come from broken homes that can present some challenges, we can become scared of love and marriage.

I know I experienced that. And so many people that we work with experience that as well. We really don't wanna repeat that cycle of brokenness, that cycle of divorce in our own marriages, but we look around and we see, you know, broken marriages all around us. We look at the divorce statistics that we all know.

Um, but even those marriages that stay together, so many of them are medioc. And we really don't wanna emulate them either. So many other, those couples would say that their marriages are unhappy or even miserable. Some of them would say they're even miserable, but you guys are different. You wouldn't describe your marriage like that.

How, how would you describe your marriage? Well, I have to be super, super honest. I thought when Joe and I were engaged at, he was the greatest guy in the world and that I was going to be, uh, so happy for the rest of my life. And then I married him and I realized, oh my goodness, I totally fooled this poor guy because he's even more amazing than what I thought he was

So I am aesthetically happy. This is the best decision that I made to marry this man. And I'm happy. My wife is blind

so we've been married for 15 years. We have six kids ages, uh, 13 to five. And, uh, we've been blessed to know the Contreras for quite a while. Now we love you guys. And I have to say that you both have been such an inspiration to me. You have modeled so well. Uh, what it looks like to, to live out a beautiful marriage and not, not a perfect marriage, I'm not, you know, I'm sure I know you have your own struggles, but you guys live out such a beautiful model of what, what it could look like, what it really should look like.

So I just wanna say thank you so much for that. I, I wanna get into your story. Tell us a little bit about your story. How, how did you meet, uh, Joey? Actually, it was about 2002. Uh, Maria came here from Spain. And she stayed at my oldest sister Kathy's house. Uh, as you might remember, I'm, I'm the eighth of nine kids, big family.

Yeah. And my oldest sister, Kathy is also my godmother. And, uh, I, I heard that there was a, a young lady staying in her house for the summer and long story short. I had my sisters that wanted introduce me to her. It was a kiss of the

So I heard that and I'm like, that's okay. Cuz I'd kind of been there, done that with sisters, trying to set me up. So it was at the end of the summer, I met her, uh, at a little family camp that we had and I said, who's that girl over there? And my brother-in-laws were like, Maria, the girl that your sister's been trying to introduce you to I'm like, oh, okay.

So my mom's a dance teacher, as you might remember. And Maria, uh, along with some nieces and nephews were gonna do a little performance for my mom called the Jan review and Maria was going to demonstrate how Flaco dancing works. And of course she needed someone to, she needed someone to come demonstrate with her.

And, um, how co. I tried and I didn't know what I was doing, but she spun and I spun and then she looked at me and she says, you don't turn your back on a woman. You never turn your back on a woman. and then the rest is history. Here we are. I haven't turned my back on her since Joey. I love it. I love it. And, and Joe, you went after Maria, uh, in Spain, didn't you?

I did Joey. So she was, uh, if I, if I didn't mention it, but she, that was like right at the end of her trip. So she was gonna be going back to Spain two days later. So I had the opportunity to visit with her the night before she left and we just talked and she told me about her, her faith, and she told me kicking interrupt.

Yeah. So I had, sorry. So I had never, I never went to a Catholic school. I was a CRA Catholic and so on. You know, the, the night when we went out, went out with a bunch of other people. . But at the end of the night, Joe took me home and he asked me, he said, um, would you please pray for me? And it was really the first time that I met a young handsome man who was asking me for prayers.

And so I thought, well, there must be something wrong with him. Like, why is he asking me for prayers ? And so I said, sure. And I think in particular, and his answer really touched me. He said, you know, I really don't know what God wants in my life. And I want to be able to figure it out and be brave and say yes.

And that really, it was like a slap to my face because I thought, you know, my prayer's pretty mediocre. Like I'm just having God, you know, this is what I wanted my life and places make it happen. And so it really, you know, although I did not, obviously did not know what God's, um, world was for, for us or when anything like that.

I did not for one second. Imagine. My future with Joe, but it really changed my prayer life. And, um, and it just really helped me to embrace whatever God wanted. And so that was my first impression, like, wow, it's pretty amazing. There's somebody brave enough to pray that prayer. And I will say this Joe, on that note, I, as a young kid, I never really envision myself getting married.

My parents are wonderful. They're still married. But during that time in my life growing up, I, uh, I saw a lot of turmoil in my own house and it wasn't something that where I said, Hey, I wanna be like them. So I always envisioned a different vocation for me. In fact, I remember one night, um, my parents really struggling having a really difficult time.

And, you know, there was some yelling, there was some chaos. And I remember getting down on my knees and saying, Lord, you know, bring peace to my home. Um, and I must have been maybe eight years old, nine years old, and I just prayed for peace and. Shortly after that. Very difficult moment. I remember, uh, my dad asking me he was reading the newspaper.

He says, Hey, do you wanna play football? And I was a fourth grader, you know, I wasn't really enamored with playing football, but it seemed like he wanted me to play football. And my thought was as well, if I play football, uh, maybe it's something that he would enjoy, uh, and that could be helpful in bringing peace to my home.

So mm-hmm, I remember as a young boy playing football and how much enjoyment my dad got out of watching me. Um, so I would, I will say this, uh, never was there a night, like there was that particular night when there was a lot of turmoil and slowly but surely I saw God bring peace to my home, which was really.

A blessing. That's beautiful. And, and that's, that was really hopeful message that it is possible to, to bring peace to troubled homes. I know, uh, it sounds like you can relate to a lot of the people listening right now, who, who do come from that really difficult situation? Well, I think for me, prayer is pretty simple.

Sometimes, you know, you can say some of these great prayers that we all maybe know and, and say regularly, but at that young age, I remembered a three word prayer and it was, God helped me when those are the only words you can utter during very difficult times, I will say never, never once has that prayer been unanswered.

And, uh, from that young age, frankly, that's been a great foundation, uh, for, I know my life and now our lives as parents raising, uh, five wonderful children, uh, one we sent to the good Lord and. Of course meeting many wonderful friends along the way, like the Pelli family and others, where we've been able to grow close to.

Uh, I'm gonna kind of fast forward, cuz I know you have such a beautiful story and we probably should do a whole podcast episode on that, but getting into, uh, your marriage and how you've really built it. And I know it's not something you would take full credit for, but um, I wanna talk a little bit about some practical things.

A lot of couples struggle with their personality differences, you know, one's one way one's the other way. And I'm just curious how, how do you two handle your personality differences? Thank God my wife is so patient. That's all I can say. you're hilarious. No, I think like we're, we're pretty different.

Obviously we're complimentary because we're men and female, but I think the biggest thing to realize is that you cannot change the other person. The only person you can change is yourself. And so if something bothers you about the other person. It's gonna be close, impossible to change them, that reaction, or, you know, even coming from a different culture background, some things might just, you know, to this day seem strange or, you know, whatever sure.

You can't, you can't change the other. Person's like way of doing things, but you can't change that. It annoys you, you know, you can change, you can. Um, I always tell the children, you know, the smile is a muscle. The more you smile, the easier it will be. And it's a great modification. Um, obviously we, we pray together and I'm like an open book sometimes I think a little bit too much.

uh, but I think it's important if there's something that bothers you, that you bring it up, not, not in front of the kids and not in the heat of the moment. I know many times at weddings people, you know, people here at the homily, oh, you know, don't go to bed when you're angry. Well, I think sometimes not when there's like something like huge, of course, but I think sometimes you like, you're so tired and if you're really going to start having a discussion, it's just gonna go down the drain.

I mean, it really will just because you both really tired and in the morning after a good night's sleep, things look so much better. This is like how I, I, and like 90% of the things you don't even have to bring up because it was just your own being tired and just taking things the wrong way. Um, and just realizing the other person on the other side of, of the room or the kitchen or the bed, whatever, they're not your worst enemy.

They're your best friend. Like you chose them over all of the other people in the whole world to spend the rest of the time of your life in eternity. And God has given you the grace. So it's, you know, even if you sometimes think, oh, that hurt me what they said, what they did realize, you know, what that person lost me.

So, so much. Like, let me try to look it through their glasses. Like, you know, and sometimes you can't and you just bring it up and say, you know, they hurt me or whatever. And it's really, I told just Joey a few days ago. It's so freeing to say, you're sorry. And you know, when, when you're blessed with children, even like to the children, I mean many times I mu it into an older mom and it's so nice to tell it to the kids.

I'm sorry. And they're they have such generous heart. They're mommy. It's okay. Don't worry. I forgive you. And it's so nice in marriage also to say I'm sorry. And for the other person not to say, oh no, no, you don't have to be sorry. No. I forgive you just give a big string hug, just start it over again. I love the point you made about changing.

Like you can change. That's something that I think a lot of people are confused about. You can change. You're not the fixed person. You can improve. You can get better, you can develop virtue. And there was a quote I saw recently had said, people can change. You can't change them. and I love. You can only change yourself.

Exactly. And the point you made too, is so good at seeking to, to understand before being understood. That's really hard to do. I can tell you that, but, um, but when you do it helps resolve situations so much quicker, it reduces drama. It, it makes life so much easier overall, but, um, but it's difficult to do, but equally important.

I think another thing that's really important Joey is when you have like a, you know, a discussion and I do think discussions are important and nice just because it, I mean, it brings interesting conversation. If we agreed on everything that, I mean, our conversations would be pretty boring. Uh, so I think it's good to have strong opinions.

I think it's good to have different opinions. Uh, but when there is like some, you know, hurt or something to repeat what the other person's said, you know, say this, did you mean this? Just because number one, it gives you. An opportunity to exercise self control. You're not really reacting to what they said.

You're repeating, you're concentrated on them. Um, and then the other person also hears what they said. Well, no, that's not exactly how I meant that this is what I meant. And you both tend to cool off and to understand, um, each other's point of view and, and maybe the, the tone you said it, or the emphasis, you put the different perspectives.

So I think that's important too. Absolutely. And one thing I'll add as well, Joey, you know, there's all there's habits that I have right now that I know are aggravating to Maria. And there

you're so honest. I love it. They're aggravating to me. And they're probably aggravating to my kids and other people, but in the spirit of love, certain things can be point out, pointed out and we can help each other with those things. My lovely wife is very ordered. Very organized. I might tend to be a little bit more off the cuff and spontaneous.

Okay. just a little bit just amid, you know, here's the thing, the reality of it is is this as much as we can help each other with those things, as it was stated so earlier, you know, we need to make those changes from within. And what I find is, is going back to that simple prayer, God helped me, uh, is also if there's certain things that I identify or my lovely wife helps to identify within me.

I realize that many of those things are too big or too difficult for me to handle. So I have to ask help. And I find that, you know, when my wife's used the term before, when we lost his. Like, you know, you're, you're a prayer beggar. You, you, you pray for, you know, you beg for, you know, prayers. Uh, but with that respect, you also ask God, help me with this.

Or can you help me with that? And you find that little by little, you could make improvements with these things. Um, but you know where it starts for me. I know. And I, I know Maria takes this just as seriously as you wake up at a set time in the morning, the alarm goes off. You, you know, within, within a minute you get outta bed and you go after another day and maybe the day before, wasn't so good, but you know, you shoot at it again and you start your day with prayer, you know, and 30 minutes, a good 30 minutes to, to start your day.

That way kind of kicks things off. And, and that's kind, it sets the tone, it sets the tone and, and that's where you're like, God help me. You know, let's, let's, let's go after this day and let's try to work on some of these weaknesses that, you know, I have that I'm born with, or that I have have had for a long time.

And you could help me overcome myself. Uh, so that could be a better husband, better worker, better son, father, cetera. You made me think of, uh, the quarterback for the, uh, Colts right now, Phillip rivers. He has this hat that says NOK Chapi, which means, you know, begin a new begin again. And, uh, he, he's just a great guy.

Yeah, he he's, he's fantastic, but it's such a good reminder. And he uses that in the football field, but he uses in life too. How you're gonna screw up. You're gonna make mistakes. You're gonna be imperfect, but if you could just restart, reset and you know, Joe, I know you're an athlete and, um, that's so important in athletics, but it's also important in life and especially in marriage.

Absolutely. You know, I many times think about, you know, we, we share a common faith. Um, I many times think about our Lord and how he fell and how he fell three times. And sometimes I wonder, well, why wasn't. Just once. Why was it it, you know, why, why was it three times? And I think the, the, the, at least what, one of the things I take from it is, um, he's showing us something there.

Not only was he physically exhausted, he was giving his entire life and, and everything else that goes along with it, but he got up three times and he kept getting it up and he kept pushing towards where he wanted to go. Mm-hmm him being God, there was probably a way for him not to fall if he really wanted it, but he's human and he fell and we fell a lot more than sometimes three times in a big given day.

And yes, we have to get, get up and keep on going after it. And I think, you know, borrowing from that same, um, image going up to go with that. I think sometimes when the cross, I mean, we all encounter the cross at one point or another in our lives. Mm-hmm, , um, it's just a matter of time and I think it's beautiful to see also.

That. And it helped me a lot, um, to see that Jesus, God could not bear the weight of the cross. It was so, so heavy, so crushing that it would just drag him to the floor. And he couldn't. I mean, he, he, he only could like lift the back up and that he needed the help of a, um, of a farmer coming out, you know, coming back to his home seminar Cyrene and they had to force him to help Jesus.

And so many times when there's a big cross or a little cross, and, uh, most of all, like, you know, when we lost our son, I would just tell Jesus, you know, I cannot with this cross, this is way too heavy. Like you be my Simon or serving. I need you to help me carry this cross. And so that's my mental, like work cry.

Like sometimes when you know, I'm having a hard day, this, that I, I just tell him you be my Simon, come on, pick up this cross. I can't do it by myself. So. It's uh, it's good. Like Joe says to keep the, the prayer ongoing, um, and just have a conversation with God that really sets the tone for the day. That's beautiful.

One thing that you, you said too, you guys are different, you have different personalities, but I could tell you compliment each other well, and I think that's so beautiful. You know, Joe, you balance up Maria or you balance up Joe and, uh, I, I think that's one of the purposes of marriage, right? One of the purposes of marriage is to help each spouse become the best version of themselves.

And so that's exactly, I think what happens though, when we have those personality difference, those personality differences, it's not. How perfect a couple can fit together, but really what they do in those moments when they disagree, when they fight, how they handle those, I think is an indication of how healthy and how successful that their marriage will be.

And another thing that you mentioned too, is just Maria, you were touching on communication. It it's. So we'll talk about that a little bit more, but it's so easy to, if you've ever played the, the game telephone, right? Where you pass a message through a line, it's so easy to misconstrue what other people are saying.

And I saw a great, uh, diagram that said, you know, when you're communicating something to someone else you can think of, uh, on the left side, you, you have, uh, what you mean. And then you can think of an arrow that goes across, then what you say. So what you mean, then what you say, what comes outta your mouth?

And then on the person on the receiving side, you draw another arrow. It's what they hear. Mm-hmm and then what they understand. And then the cycle repeats itself in, in a circle. They, they mean something. They say something, you hear it, and then you understand it. And in that, in that process, uh, things can be misunderstood misconstrued.

And so I love what you said to, to repeat, to reflect what the other person is saying. That's a really practical tip that someone can start using right now, if they're not. And is that thing like we're, so, uh, we live in a society where everything has to be like really, really fast and like, it's, we're all reacting to stimuli and sometimes it's good.

And Joe helps me because he's a very calm person. Hmm. You know, like when somebody says something just to take like three seconds, not to be like under defensive, not to be like right away, giving, having the answer. It's like, you know, sometimes it's good to say, well, thank you. Like, let me, let me think about it.

Let me pray about it. Like, or, you know, I, I don't have the answer. Like I'm, I really don't know. Um, and it's good to think, like, you know, to, to think about the answers to. Especially when it's important topics important, like, you know, regarding education or regarding your, your parenting or your, your marriage.

It's important to, to talk about in a calm way. It's just making sure that you understand that you speak in the same language, you know? No, I don't think anyone has ever made a good decision when they're running solely on emotion. Yeah, totally. I wanna change gears a little bit. What's the best marriage advice that, that you've been given?

Well, one of the things you always hear, and I think you, you might have reminded me of this, Joey, uh, you know, some older folks have said never go to bed angry at each other, or, you know, after a fight or something like that, that's obviously a time old, uh, uh, suggestion, but you know, on the, on the topic of communication, let me just say this, uh, there's a lot of distractions out.

and, and those distractions, aren't always healthy distractions. And I re I recall a time, you know, a few years ago, as, you know, cell phone technologies and apps and more dependency on this little device. And yeah, I get to a point where I'm having a conversation with Maria, but, you know, I'm partially somewhere else.

I'm looking down at a screen and I remember her just stopping and I looked and she's like, can you just put that down? And I realized, oh my gosh, I'm not giving my full time and heart and love to my wife. So, you know, you, we really gotta find a way to remove these distractions around us and look each other in the eyes and have a nice conversation.

And, you know, a natural short embrace. I will say this the best thing we can give to our, our, our kids. Um, if we're blessed with children, Or anybody around us for that matter in terms of sharing each other's marriage with us is the love we show for each other. Hmm. And if we can do that with each other and, and genuinely show the love that we have with each other, to those around us, whether those are children or others, that's the best gift we can give, uh, to our kids.

And that's the best gift we can give to any of our friends. The best thing I can do for the, for our kids is to love my wife as good and as best as I can. And they will be happy. And I'll give you an example. I mean, just a few months ago, I remember grabbing my lovely wife in a gentle fashion, or maybe not so gentle and we started dancing or something.

And I, I gave her a nice, you know, not a crazy kiss, but just a nice kiss in front of the kids. And I looked down at, uh, our second youngest. And she just looked up beaming at me with the biggest smile in the whole world. Yeah. And, um, and that's something that I know means the world to kids. Okay. And I certainly keep in mind your list, the, your listeners, uh, because that's maybe something that was not as, uh, uh, uh, prevalent.

Okay. And some of those households, but that's something that they can have and cherish and their, and find in their own lives. And, uh, especially with the experience, I'm sure a lot of your listeners have endured. Um, they have so much to offer in terms of finding and discovering and just living that, uh, life and that piece for me, it started as a young boy when I saw a lot of tur.

and I wanted to do what I can to change that turmoil, but all I can really do it was within myself. And I think that was something we touched on earlier. So I know I said a few things as far as advice, but, uh, in order for me to love her more and thus others, I, I need to ask for that. That's a gift. I need to ask more for that gift from God, and God will give it to you.

Increase my capacity to love, increase my capacity, to be the best husband. I can be the best father I can be. And let me tell you, get ready because it happens. Those prayers are answered ask, and you shall receive knock and the door will be open seeking. You shall find, uh, we have to ask for that. Our gift of free will is so valuable.

It just doesn't fall out of a sky. So we have to use the gifts God's given us the free will we have and simply ask. and then trust and know that the answer will come and, and that peace and love will be there. So yeah. Now, um, I wanted to, and also, you know, a few things, the first thing is just to realize if you're not married yet.

Uh, my, my mom and dad would always say, you know, when you are serious about dating somebody, make sure that number one, you bring them home so that we can get to know them because you might be so in love, you don't see like, oh my goodness, like this person is very, this very, that, like, this is person that's not good for you.

And that we can like, you know, guide, but also at the same time, look how they treat their family because not really special, you're the girlfriend. But eventually if you end up getting married, you become family and you better like the way he treats his family, because that's the way he's gonna treat you, you know?

Yeah. So that's one advice for people that are not married yet, uh, for people that are married, it's important to. That God calls us to heaven through our SP our spouses, not despite our husband or around our husband, it's with our spouses. And so it's, it's a path that we walk together and then a practical advice.

You know, we had a long distance relationship for about two and a half years, and I was at a time studying law in business administration. And I realized, you know, the only time quote unquote that I would spend with Joe is either through letters or foreign conversations or through emails. And so, um, I told, you know, I, I used to spend tons of time in the library and I had lots of friends and I told my friends that we're male.

I said, you know, we're not gonna do this. Like, I'm not going to hang out at the library and study, you know, unless, I mean, unless there's girls as a group, but I won't meet like a guy or two or whatever, and study or walk to the train station or go out for coffee, like on a break, something, because already there that's more special than the time that I get to spend with Joe.

And so it's really, really important. I mean, life gets really busy and it's really important to carve out time for selves. Like one thing that I still do to this day, you know, with a time difference, stay in Chicago, we had seven hours time difference. And sometimes I would forget to tell him something had happened or, and so I would have a list of things that I wanted to tell Joe, you know, and they weren't all like, you know, left or death matters.

There were many times were I silly things, but it's, isn't that what life is all about. Lots of little things, you know? Um, and in Spain you say a little card, you like the more. The more, you have like little encounters. That's what creates a big love, you know, mm-hmm . So to this day now, I, I still find myself using the same trick because many times, you know, we have all these children and sometimes I, I feel like I told Joe something and he's like, oh, you know, he's super surprised.

I'm thinking, oh my goodness, like, he's my best friend. And I didn't tell him. And maybe I talked to the, to the teachers about it, or maybe I talked to the, to the kids about it or to my mom. And so it's really important to keep each other on the number one, spot one, sorry. Number two, God. Number one. And use spouse number two.

And so not to take each other for granted to make sure that you carve out time to spend, you know, time with each other and you continue to have fun. I mean, life is really, really fun. Make sure you do some nice things together. Make sure you go for a walk, put the kids to bed and go for a walk or watch a movie together, or, you know, surprise spouse with, you know, a yummy.

Dessert. Well, I don't know. I mean, I love, I love cultural events. Like, you know, Joe has surprised me with, you know, going for a picnic and you know, the forest preserver, there is a concert, I mean little things like that. Didn't have to be spectacular, but it's just letting the other person know that you thinking of them, that you love them.

Just giving them a phone call in the middle of the day, just because why are you calling me just to say that I love you. You're the greatest guy in the world. And I, you know, I mean, and it's just little things like that, make sure you continue those. And they might sound like silly things, but silly things are not silly things they're not so silly.

And that's how the, you know, when, when somebody else does that, when somebody else, when you can fight into somebody else at work or at the gym about your marriage, or, you know, I'll tell you a silly little story, but we had been married for about, I don't know, maybe like 13, 14 months. And I went on a girl trip and, um, We like one of the ladies had a genius idea of going around the, the room and telling everybody, like everybody sharing what they dislike most about their husbands.

And I was appalled. I was like, what in the world? Like this is like, and keep in mind, I'm newly married. I'm like the, the young girl that just moved from Spain. So I'm like the awkward one but like, there's like, no way that number one at this point, there was nothing that I didn't like about my husband. Um, yet tell us, you know, maybe like a list of like one inch about this point, but no, um, very small print, one inch

but it's like when my, so everybody was just like sharing things and when my time came, I was the last one. I said, you. the one thing I don't like about my husband is that he's not stone rich. And in that way we could just spend every single moment together. Mm-hmm and they were like, ah, Maria, it's like, you know, honestly, it's not of your business, but I don't like about my husband.

Yeah. It's not going to make our marriage any stronger or any better. It's not gonna help you merge. So why do it? And I realized there's so much such of a need of a positive marriage. And so I got a sticker ever since. I mean, we've married 15 years. So ever since year one, I've had a sticker in my card, says, I love my husband.

You have no idea how many men have come up to me and said, wow, Your husband must be so happy that you love him so much. And there has been, there have been women, and this is, I think the sad part that said, oh, did your husband pull it out there? And I said, no, I put it on there. And when it cracks and falls out, I put another one and another one, you know, Joey, the only problem is, is when I drive the, the vehicle.

That's little confusing. That's when I get a few strange looks. So no. So I think it's, it's really important to watch your marriage with teeth and, uh, knives. Don't let anybody other than God in there. Um, I know people have great intentions and, um, great advice and solicit it or solicitate, don't do it.

Don't go down that road because you know, even if you could fight in your mom, whatever, you can forgive and forget, your mom will not forgive or forget that their little daughter was crying. This is not good. This is not healthy. It's not going to help strengthen your marriage. So in, in episode 26, we had a, a young, a woman on a, a bride.

She was newly married two years and she wrote this Facebook post. That basically was her frustration and her sadness really on how negative people are towards marriage and towards their spouses. Like you said, they maybe at work, they'll talk bad about their spouse, or they'll say bad things about marriage saying that, oh, it's nice.

You know, you like your husband now, but just wait it or, oh, this will never last things like that thinks that people actually say, and, uh, it was so discouraging to her. And so she wrote this post and it actually went viral. Anyone who's heard episode 26, you know it, uh, right now at this point it's had almost 90,000 shares.

Wow. And what it says to me, Is that, that resonates with people. People want that they want a beautiful version, a beautiful view of, of what love and marriage could and should look like. And, and that was what her post was all about. Like, why don't, why aren't we talking about what marriage could be, what it should be, how joyful it can be.

Instead of just always focusing on the difficulties, always focusing on the hard parts, the, you know, discomforts, the personality differences and all that. And like I said, it went viral. So I think a lot of people are, are hungry for that. I, I wanna go back to something you said, though, you said that you, after God, you two are the priority for each other and some marriages.

Don't say that though. Some marriages put the kids above the marriage. Why is it important to put the marriage before the kids? And why is that ultimately better for the kids too? Well, I'll just say, uh, first off that there's an order on how the kids come into the world and that starts with the marriage and, and the parents.

I mean, the thing that. When you get it mixed up, it's pretty easy for all of us to see how things get a little goofy and strange. I'm not gonna mention names, but I was at a recent, uh, friend's house. They have three wonderful kids and the kids are getting older and, uh, I've seen them do a wonderful job parenting these, these last several years.

And I've seen how much love and time and attention they put in their kids. Now, the kids are leaving the house and they look at each other like, who are you? And let me say, you know, maybe when you're in 24, 7 parenting mode and doing what you can and you know, one's running to soccer and one's running over there and no, even then.

No, no, no, no, no, no. I, I understand the kids to bed, put the kids to bed, lock their door so they cannot escape and just have time for each other. No, I get it. But my, my, and see how wonderfully she finishes my sentences. I was going say something very similar to that. Maria Love yours. Feisty Spaniard. I love it.

no, you get the point though. So that's where the, the, the, the children are fruits of that love mm-hmm . And if it's like little scene or the rest of our kids, seeing acts of affection between the parents. They need that. And that gives them a, a peace that gives them security and that, and that frankly develops self confidence and love within themselves.

If they see that reflected within their parents. And if they see it not there, that's when disorders creep and in, and doubts and fears and negativity and all of those things that frankly, all of us need to ask the Lord to take from us so we can live and carry that love. You cannot give your spouse something you don't have if you don't have that peace and that love within.

And, and we're, we're, we're blessed to know that comes from our Lord. If you don't have him within you, can't share him with your spouse, let alone your children let alone anyone you come, uh, in, in contact with in a given day. So thankfully we, we share that, that, that faith that's alive and strong. And real in our lives and that spirit, that kind of steers us away from all of the goofiness we all see in society and the world today, uh, where you're, where you can be a strong, bright light.

And, and that's the goal. I mean, we're not perfect, but that's something we strive for each day, uh, in trying to live our faith, uh, beyond Sundays. Yeah. And I think it's, you know, when you say, why is it important that, you know, the other person comes for the children? You know, I think it's, it's so important to realize that you are both complimentary, like the kids need both of you.

They need like the firmness and like the strength of the father and, you know, maybe like more the selfness or you know, of the, of the mom. Um, it's a good balance. And of course, like when, you know, you have a newborn and they're completely helpless, you just tend to like say, oh my goodness, like this person just needs me so much.

I mean, they would die without like literally die without me. And of course like is like, you know, he can help himself. Like he's, you know, um, but Jose Maria, he would say, you know, your, your spouse, your husband, actually, your husband has to be the youngest child in your heart. Meaning like the most, the one that needs you the most.

I mean, he's the one that needs you the most. Um, and you, you are a team, you know, and I think you're gonna be pretty lonely. Like Joe says, if you, if you don't keep up that friendship, I mean, just because you're married, we see we have this, you know, strange, uh, I mean, we all love happy ending like movies, but I think there's some kind of like strange distortion in Hollywood where, you know, people right up the sunset and says, there's a science, that's just married.

And it's like, oh, it's all over. Well, it's just the beginning. I mean, and if you don't keep growing, I mean, you have the grace to, to make it, you have the grace to be not just to make and be like exhausted, but to have fun and, and just love being married. uh, but, but you need to, to work at it. Just like, I mean, if you're running marathon, you know, you don't just show up and live marathon and try to win the first prize.

I mean, that's ridiculous, you know, I mean, it's like every day, day by day. And I think like, it's, you know, one thing that I, I tell people sometimes, you know, you go through ups and downs and sometimes you think like, you look at the wedding vows and I've prayed with the wedding vows before. Like, you know, like just remind yourself and you know, what you commit and in front of our Lord, just renew that, renew that, um, those vows, you know, unilaterally, like, you know, just thank God for the gift of Joe.

Um, and just realizing that some, so many times like people get, um, discouraged or, or anxious when they, when they read like for better, for worse all the days of my life, all the days of my life. It's like, who knows, like, is that like another 80 years? Like really? Am I stuck? You know what the truth is? I don't know if I'm gonna make it tomorrow.

I mean, that's the plain honest truth. Am I going? And I tell this to the kids because I don't ever want them to feel like fearful or guilty. I mean, if something ever happens to him, it's because God is like a gardener and he, he can see my whole life as if he was on top of a rooftop. And my whole life is like a parade and he wants me to go to heaven with him.

So he's going to look at the moment where I'm closest to heaven and he say, okay, this is the day I'm gonna take her with me so that she can come right away to heaven with me. And so if tonight is my time to go, it's gonna be either I swallow a cherry pit or I fall down the stairs or I have a heart attack, but today's the day.

And so, you know, no cherries tonight. but it's like, if you, if you think like that and say, you know what, I'm going to love this person for better, for worse. Like for today, And then tomorrow for today and for today. And it's like, you can do that. You can, I mean, just put yourself short term goals. Um, and you can do it and it's just gonna get better and better, you know, Joey, that's how she's able to, to carry her cross.

Ah, here comes a Marty I love it. No, man. There's so many good things that you said. I want to go back to something that, uh, you both alluded to and that is, uh, how important it is to model. Love for your children. And like you said, Joe, those of us listening who come from broken homes for it can be a difficult thing to talk about, but it's important to remember, like you said, even if that wasn't given to you, you can give that to your children.

And that's really beautiful. And that motivates me personally. It's like, that's how I get the resolution to this situation. My parents may never get back together and they probably won't, but I can give that to, to my children. I think there's so much beauty in that. And I don't think you, you two or anyone really knows the impact that modeling a beautiful love, faithful love in the good times and the bad times, how, how much that affects young people like your daughter looking up at you, dancing and kissing that is literally imprint.

In her soul, like on such a deep level that we can't even get to with words, it's, it's so beautiful. So I, that we can talk forever about that, but the model that we leave for our children, for the people around us too, if you don't have children, it, it makes all the difference. So I, I love that you said that I think that's something that everyone from a broken home, uh, can, can strive after.

And don't think if, you know, if you were never blessed having that, you do have that. I mean, look at the holy family, you know, so don't feel like, oh my goodness, like, I, I didn't have it. You can. I mean, and I, I like to go to St. Joseph, because can you imagine that hustled and, you know, Nara, like, you know, hear the sun is God, our ladies in necklace.

And so every time something went wrong in that household, I mean, it's like the only option Joseph, you know, so I like to go, but imagine like the beautiful marriage, they, they would have like the beautiful example. So I think it's important to maybe you didn't have that physical experience, but. You can draw from, from that's personal, uh, experience.

And I'm sure that people know, you know, whether it's a neighbor, whether it's like aunt uncles or friends, um, and, and you might be even having a stronger desire to make things work, to make things beautiful. And, um, honestly we all want to be happy and that's how, how you're going to be happy by loving other person.

By putting yourself down so that the other person treads slightly, you know, that's beautiful. Yeah. That's one of the things we recommend to people who come from broken homes is surround yourself with people who have healthy, beautiful marriages, and that, that will leave an imprint on you. Uh, and perhaps even override the example that maybe you saw, you know, in your home.

So that's great advice. I love that. And, uh, that's why I brought you two on the show. So I know people can see you right now, but, uh, but man, if, if you knew them the way I knew them, you would know that they just have such a beautiful love. I wanna keep moving. The next question I have for you guys is, but what do you think that the most important ingredients are to build a great marriage?

And I realize we touched on some of those, but, uh, but what, what would you say are the most important ingredients to building love that lasts? Well, I think like the first thing, uh, obviously is, is having a strong faith life, you know, realizing that the other person is a gift to you. We always be thankful for the other person to take each other for granted.

um, but then it's, I think it's also very important to keep forming yourself. And when I say forming, not just any, I mean, sometimes we're so minded, we just form ourselves in our professional, uh, real, but it's important to grow also in a, you know, in a human, in a human kind of way or a spiritual, so that you do have things to talk about that you do have conversations that you can grow together.

You can find, I mean, you can have fun together. And I think, um, that's like really a glue between faith and fun. Um, you know, I have, I have a, I'm very blessed. I have a husband who is always happy and cheerful. I know that, you know, like you, like you said, People only have get a little glimpse of him here on this podcast, but he's always happy and cheerful.

And I tell people, it's not just when he's with you. Like, that's how he is. Like 24 7. Like he wakes up and he wakes up the kids singing and it's like 6:00 AM and yes, he's singing. what's wrong with you now. I'm just kidding. That's beautiful. Sometimes I like, I'm like laying in bed. I thinking like, what did he put his coffee?

Like, I know that, you know, but it's like, I mean, the combination of like faith and fun and just not being, not being afraid of saying, sorry, nobody expects you. To be perfect. Um, and I've, you know, Joe has heard me say this probably too many times, but I think in this country, we, there is many wonderful, wonderful things, but one thing that's very dangerous is the pollution of purism and perfectionism like we're so like it's so hammered into our hearts.

And so you have to independent, you have to be strong, you have to be, you know, work hard, get it done. That we, we are afraid of having strong friendships where we show ourselves vulnerable. You know, I married tough Joe and that, you know what, joking 20% would be tough, Joe. And you know, I'm certainly not TA Maria.

Like I break down 20,000 times a day and it's important to be vulnerable with each other. And. You know, and Joe reads me so well like this, you know, this afternoon, he's like, you know, thought what's in your heart. I'm just like, and there was nothing in my heart. I was just like, at least exhausted, exhausted.

I'm just like, it's empty. I can't even think. And I know that's like a man thing to say, but I'm like, I really nothing bugs. Like I just can't even think. Right. So that's okay. We'll let you feel that way sometimes. Yeah. but I think it's like so important to also develop strong friendships with other couples that can help you.

Um, that also have, you know, it's, it's great to do a positive and to reach out to people like the pop says and the hemisphere, but it's also really, or even more importantly, to surround yourself with good, strong, like marriages that you do have that confidence of going out for a walk or whatever, and say, you know what, I'm struggling with this.

Can you please pray for us? And. I don't know how to, and they're going to be able to help you and thinking of my mom and dad, for example, they, um, a friend couple came up to them and their husband, um, and well, their husband and wife both came to them and through a personal friendship of him. And that's why it saw poisonous to have for me guy friends, or for him like lady friends, because in the end, it's just gonna turn into something you don't want.

So it's just better to avoid it. I'm sorry. It's gonna sound really archaic, but that's how things are. Um, and so that's what happened to this couple. They, he started development this friendship with this woman, instead of sharing things with her, you know, thinking it's, I mean, it's, it's for innocent and your stories or feelings.

He had this, that, and it turned to something more than what he intended to. And so this couple went to my mom and dad and they couldn't confided in them and they weren't afraid of showing their vulner vulnerability and to say, you know, we're struggling and we're really. The brink of divorce and, you know, can you please help us?

And so they met for like six months. I mean, EV like almost every day, my mom and dad like, was a big sacrifice for them obviously, but they believe it emerged so much. And I think it's really important that we do have those strong friendships. You don't have to have like 5,000 Facebook friends or even 5,000, like girlfriends.

If you have one or two, like really great friends that you can be yourself, that you can have a good cry, a good laugh that you can just be ridiculous. And it's fine. That's great. You're so blessed that that capital is going to help you say strong in your marriage and, and amen. And, and I'll just add going back to the same, sorry thing, listen for men.

I think a lot of times, you know, what gets in the way is pride, original sin, right? Where we, you know, we just want to be right. Or we want to, you know, just hang strong with what we thought. And then if we take a deep breath or take a walk or a chill pill, whatever it might be, we realize, you know what, I probably was a little bit too harsh or too strong.

Maybe I really was. Right. But the manner in which I dealt with it was not appropriate or frankly kind or charitable. Um, and in that case, absolutely. I'm sorry, you know, forgive me, honey. And why is that important? Number one, it brings greater love between each of you. Uh, there's something very humble about that.

And there's actually something, you know, that happens in reverse of pride and that's, you know, real power, real strength, and you, you gain something that you didn't have before. When you're trying to err, you know, tough guy, you know, uh, that doesn't build, that's not a building, uh, um, you know, that's not a foundation.

Okay. So anyway, not only does the love grow, but, but also the strength and, and the power of that relationship grows, but then you're also, uh, showing something to your kids. I mean, I can't tell you, we have a five year old sleeping upstairs and you know, it's such a beautiful thing to hear her say, I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. Like she'll, she's just, she just so openly just says, she's sorry. And I know that if she didn't see that from her siblings or from her mom and dad, she wouldn't have that spirit of recognizing that, you know, I shouldn't have done that, or I shouldn't have done this, or I shouldn't have been so rough here.

So that's really a special thing. Uh, and if we don't lead with, with those apologies, then our kids, aren't going to either. Peter creeps. Uh, he's at philosopher at Boston college. You probably know of, he, uh, he says that we need to have, uh, a hard head and a soft heart. And he said, and he says, what, what happens?

And what, what we have today is the opposite. We have hard hearts and soft heads. So I love that it's so important too, for kids to see modeled again for them, what it looks like to resolve bad situations, to resolve conflict. For so many of us who come from broken homes, what we experienced was a fight, a disagreement that maybe got loud and, you know, perhaps even escalated more than that.

And then usually one spouse or both would just go their separate ways and we never saw the resolution. So one thing, one of my professors said is, so I. For you to show your kids, the, the resolution, the, the ending, how, how you, you know, made up at the end of it, even if there was some sort of disagreement.

So, so I love that. And going back to Maria, what you said about American culture, you know, there's a lot of beautiful and good things about American culture, but there are some bad things. And, uh, one thing that I've experienced you as you guys know, my grandparents came over to the United States from Italy on my dad's side, and I've had the opportunity been blessed to be able to go back to Italy and spend time there and I've develop friendships and, you know, know families over there and people.

And, uh, I love their culture on so many levels, especially the parts that haven't been Americanized. Uh, and it, I, I honestly, the happiest I've ever been, I think, is over there where I'm not worried about being productive. I'm not worried about being perfect. I'm not worried about getting things done and moving at a million miles an hour.

It's just, I'm enjoying life. And then I'm living life barely to the fullest. And so it's beautiful. It's beautiful. And, you know, I know. Europe has changed a lot, you know, over the, the years. But, uh, but I think that the beauty of that culture of just spending time with each other, just enjoying life is something that in many places we we've lost, which is sad.

Can I go back? I totally agree. And I think that's so important that, you know, you don't have a, you don't have a resolution or like, um, okay, let's go sit down for 20 minutes and let's come up with like family mission. No, I mean, just, just be together and, you know, play board games, just come up with, you know, fun things to do together.

Uh, but one thing I wanted to say also, you know, and it was, I thought it was a nice compliment from the kids. You know, I was asked to be a part of a marriage seminar the other week and they, you know, one of the, it was 40 young men that were at this seminar and, you know, somebody talk, you know, somebody asked like, well, what is it worth fighting over.

And I say, well, honestly, there's not a list. Like you can fight over this and not over that. I think like, whatever hurts you, you should bring, bring up just because it's like a wound that is like, you know, gets infected and it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And then it's like, you have like, loves worse for, and it's like, I can't believe there's hours.

And it's just like, oh my gosh, what just happened? you really it's left hours. Yeah. It's hours. But it's like, there's this like, you know, like the underlying, like 35 things that have been frustrating there for like three months. And so I think it's, you know, and it's not like, well, you left at toothpaste cap open.

I mean, you know what, I'm sorry. Tough enough. A little bit. Don't let that stuff bother you because it's so tiny. I mean, just screw it back on it's okay. But what honestly, like hurts you, like, just bring it up. Don't be afraid of like, you know, and then more importantly. If you do have children, it's really important that you do not fight in front of the kids if possible.

And it was really, you know, when I was sharing with the kids a little bit about this spare seminar, our oldest asked, asked me, she's like, you know, have you and daddy ever like been in this agreement? And my eyes popped out my sock. I'm like, ah, yeah. but it was just a beautiful, like, you know, San Maria, who is a saying that we love a lot.

He would, he would, that was one of his advice that, you know, if you can, you know, try to, to not fight in front of the kids, then, you know, sometimes it's inevitable that something will happen in front of the kids, but just somebody like whoever has a coolest has, can just say, let's talk about it later. Not in front of the kids or, you know, and just, or, you know, hold the other person's hand, like a little bit stronger, like, okay.

Not, not right now. And I think it really helps because number one, you're, you're cooler headed. You have a, you know, like, you know, where you want to get. I mean, you know, you know, and you get, can get, get the whole story. Um, and it's good for the kids. I mean, I think like so many times, like you're saying they might see the scary part and it's always, the kids never have the full story.

And so ignorance just breeds a lot of fear. And so the kids might only know a little bit of the story or, or, you know, not see the, the resolution and that just brings anxiety and, and just, you know, they just project. And so I think it's really important to try to foster that. Self-control if, if I, you know, if I can use a word in your relationship, like.

Such a great conversation, a few takeaways, one it's possible guys love and marriage can last. They can be beautiful. They can be happy. It doesn't mean you're not gonna suffer. It doesn't mean there's not gonna be sacrifices and problems that come up over the years. But Joe and Maria really prove that love can be beautiful.

Love can last over the years. And, and in this interview too, some of the things that I've noticed from them, they're so respectful and they even have this sort of Revere. For each other. They're obviously humble people. You heard that throughout the interview of them talking about areas where they can improve or things they did wrong.

And if it wasn't clear, they're just so joyful. They're such happy people. And like I mentioned, at the start of the show, a lot of that comes from their faith. They would say their relationship with God, but it's not all smiles, right. They've suffered, especially in losing their child, which we'll talk about more in part two, but they they've really suffered well, I, I watched them suffer well and handled that well and even get closer to each other through it all, even though it was difficult.

So there's just a lot that we can learn from them. And those were some of my takeaways. And my question to you is what resonated with you the most from this? I. I encourage you to talk to someone about those things, especially your significant other, and if you don't have anyone to discuss it with, that's fine.

Maybe just write a little bit about your takeaways. Take 10 or 15 minutes before you go to bed tonight or tomorrow to just write about the things that really stuck out to you. Like I mentioned, at the beginning, we're doing it in a virtual event with the culture project called the restore culture, virtual workshops.

It's a free event. It's September 25th through 27th. And if you're like me, you're kind of tired of all these virtual conferences. I totally get it, but this one's good. It's different. Not gonna wanna miss out on it. They're doing a hundred plus mini workshops. Ted style talks, especially for parents, for educators, pastors, mentors, but also for single people, married people, anyone who's really looking for community and answers on tough topics like dating marriage, divorce, parenting.

College sex, pornography, healing, social issues, bunch of different topics. And there's 70 plus speakers. Some who are really well known like Christopher West, Jason Everett. Who's been on the show. Chris Salina, Everett, Sarah Swafford. Who's been on the show, Dr. Julia Sadusky, who's been on the show. And a lot of the talks are actually in Spanish too, which is awesome.

I'm giving two talks. One talk is called what I wish someone told me when my parents divorce. I just talk about how divorce affects those of us who do come from broken homes based on the research, and then get into some practical tips for healing. Uh, the other talk is 10 tips to help someone whose parents are separated or divorce.

And I just explain how to help someone who comes from a broken home, especially if they're going through the divorce right now. And that's especially useful advice for anyone who loves or leads. People like us again, it's free. So if you wanna sign up, you can click on the link in the show notes and your podcast app, or you can go to restored ministry.com/two seven.

Again, that's restored ministry. Ministry is just singular.com/ 27. You can click on the link there for the restore culture, virtual workshops and full disclaimer. The event is free the weekend of September 25th or 27th. But after that weekend, if you want access to the talks, you can actually purchase their premium pass again, totally optional.

But if you do restore does get a commission from that purchase at no additional cost to you. So just wanna be completely transparent with you guys on that. Again, that's optional that premium pass. You can just sign up for free and watch those talks over the weekend. So go ahead and sign up. Love to see you.

again, this episode was part one of two with Joe and Maria Keller. Don't miss the next episode, which is part two. There's a lot more practical wisdom in that episode as well. The resources mentioned during the show notes ever stored ministry.com/two seven. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful, go ahead and subscribe and share this podcast with someone you know, who could use it.

Always. Remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.