#020: Navigating Singleness | Sarah Swafford

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Navigating the single years can be challenging and lonely. In this episode, we hit on some of the unique struggles we face during a season of singleness. Our guest, Sarah Swafford, offers advice on dealing with those struggles and preparing for the love we all long for.

By listening, you'll walk away with:

  • How to deal with the loneliness of singleness

  • How to overcome the fear and shame of not being chosen

  • We even go beyond singleness into identity, self-worth, and the reality of marriage

  • How Sarah’s husband didn’t let his broken home dictate his future

  • Answer questions from Restored’s community

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Navigating the single years can be challenging and lonely. In this episode, we hidden some of the unique struggles we face during a season of singleness. Our guest is Sarah Swafford and she offers advice on dealing with those struggles and preparing for the love that we all long for by listening.

You're gonna get Sarah's advice on how to deal with the loneliness of being single, how to overcome the fear and shame of not being chosen. We even go beyond singleness and identity self-worth and the reality of marriage. Sarah also shares how her husband didn't let his broken home. Dictate his future, really beautiful.

He worked hard to heal and build a strong marriage and a beautiful family, which he now has Sarah challenges us and says that today is the day to start preparing for your marriage. Even if you're single, we also field some questions from restored community. Like how do you make the most of the time that you're single?

And how do you know when you're even ready to date to begin with lots of wisdom ahead from Sarah.

Welcome to the Restored podcast, helping you cope, heal, and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce. Or separation. So you can feel whole again, I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 20 and we're in the middle of our love and relationship series. The research shows that the biggest effects from our parents to force are experienced in our romantic relationships.

You may be thinking why is that? Because we don't have a roadmap for love. We've seen a broken model of love and marriage. And so when it's our turn, we feel lost and struggle in many ways in our relationships. And so we're bringing you a roadmap, actionable tips and expert advice on how to find and build authentic love.

A little background on Sarah. She's the founder of emotional virtue. She speaks to people of all ages, all around the world on a variety of topics, such as emotional virtue, dating and relationships and confidence. She's a graduate of Benedictine college and has been involved in ministry for over 10 years.

And for three of those years, Sarah actually worked as a resident hall director at Benedictine college, taking care of a dorm over 140 freshman women. And that experience gave her a front row seat into the hearts of the women and men transitioning from high school to college. And she really got a good understanding and a deeper look into the struggles that teens and young adults face today.

So I'm really excited for you guys to hear from Sarah. One thing I do wanna say there's so much to cover on this topic. We obviously couldn't cover it all in this episode, but I do wish we could have, and thank you to everyone who submitted questions. I wish we could have covered them all, but we didn't have time, but a special thanks to Shane, to Kendra, Gerard.

Jasmine, Aaron, Monica, Tori, Nick, Suzanne, and Heather. Thank you guys for submitting questions. We're gonna do more of that in the future. Answer your questions on the show. So join our email list on the website or follow us on social. So you don't miss that. Here's my conversation with Sarah Swofford. Sarah.

Swofford great to have you. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for having me. I have been looking forward to this for so long. I'm sorry. It took me so long to get myself on here. Thank you for being patient with me. I'm pumped to be with you guys. No, thank you for making time. And it's a pleasure to have you, uh, big we're, big fans of you and everything that, that you do.

So really honored to, to have that Ashville. Well, I'm a huge fan of everything you guys are doing it restored. I remember talking to you years ago about your desire to have a place where you could come and talk about these things and share. In a community and it's just so beautiful to see it ha it's happening.

And, um, I'm so grateful to all your hard work, your whole team. Thank you. Yeah. Slowly but surely we we're, we're getting there. So thanks for that. So we're talking about the single years. And so you talk with so many young people every year. And so you know that for a lot of people being single can be really difficult and there's a number of struggles that kind of come along with that.

And we're gonna talk about a few of them. Uh, but one of 'em is loneliness for a lot of people being single is very lonely and, you know, we want someone to call to text. We wanna someone to come home to, to hold, to share holidays with, to support us through, you know, those rough patches in life. And so if you would give us your advice, what's your advice for someone who's dealing with that kind loneliness?

Yeah. Well, that's great out question. I think, especially during quarantine time, right? I, that it's really interesting to see. How our hearts can be lonely, even when there's people around and then to be like very lonely because, um, you have a situation in your life where you really are cut off from people.

You know what I mean? So mm-hmm, , um, I think loneliness while it is something that is even harder when you have a family that maybe isn't in, you know, maybe that's broken, whether your family is, you know, separated or, or your parents are separated or divorced, or if your home is just very volatile and very broken, you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm , um, I think all of those. All of those situations, you are gonna find yourself, like, I feel alone in this, you know, maybe you're hiding out in your room just to get away from all of it, you know? And, um, and you find yourself cut off and isolated. And I think that that's probably the word that, um, comes to me.

The, like, when I think of loneliness, we just, we weren't created to be alone. Amen. Like, I, I really, um, one of the things I say in my talk sometimes is the devil loves to do three things. He loves to twist, divide and. , those are like his three ways that he really loves to get at us. And personally, I can attest to this, you know, he twists the truth about who we are about what we're made for about, you know, like who's we are, right.

It's just like all this twisting, especially of our identity. Um, what we're longing for. He's just able to really like put that in, not, and then he does that. And what seems to happen is it, it creates division, right? So you, you feel insecure. So you're like, I don't wanna be with this group of people. You feel, you know, you feel competitive, you feel like you're comparing they, for some reason, they make you feel small, you know, like maybe it's a relationship where you, you know, you are interested in one person in that friend group and now it's like, you can't be around any of them.

You know? So there's like a lot of, you know, like I just think in young adults, especially, it's really easy for the devil to twist. And then he, he divides people out and then he isolates them so he can pick 'em off. And I think that that's part of the ball game is. When you feel, and, and I I've struggled with like anxiety my whole life.

I, I am just am a worrier. And then, um, I've had, I was bullied in seventh grade and so I had to switch schools and, and there was some. There was a shift for sure. Like in that time period of junior high where, um, we, I think the best way to say it. And, and I wish I had a counseling degree, you know, like I, I, that would be something that would be very helpful in my life.

Um, but I pick up little things as I go along. But, um, that whole idea of just like trying to protect yourself, you know what I mean? Like that, like safety or trying to protect yourself and for a lot of people, it's it, that isolation is where they think they're gonna find safety and pro and like protection.

You know what I mean? So it's really easy to wanna cut yourself off or to, it's really easy to feel only whether you've chosen it or not. Right. Like, that's just, I mean, sometimes it's chosen for, you know, like if you come from a broken home and you don't relate, you don't feel like you can really be yourself or relate to anybody there, you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm um, or you come from like, you know, a really loud, fun family, but they're just a lot and , and you feel like you need to get away, you know? So, um, so I would say to that loneliness aspect, There's no easy answer, cuz we're all gonna kind of feel lonely at some point in our life, whether you, you know, no matter what your circumstances are.

So I guess the way to fight it for, for me to fight loneliness is to kind of give myself that, that deep look in into the interior of just like, okay, like I feel lonely, like why, you know what I mean? Like, am I running from something? Um, am I trying to distance myself from those who either, you know, maybe, maybe I'm trying to distance myself from my friends or those who love me.

Um, and then also trying to look, look for those little places where you maybe feel the, devil's trying to poke into a wound, right. Where the devil's trying to divide you out from someone. Um, and then you just have to fight like crazy against that. You know, that, that loneliness, because what happens is, is it's very easy to slip into despair.

Amen. Yeah. And so, so from, I mean, I'm speaking as a 30. I guess I'm 37, I'll be 37 on Tuesday. So a 37 year old, old, I'm an old lady with five kids and I've been married. I'll be married 15 years this summer. And it's interesting how I can be, you know, happily married with these adorable kids and they're allow, and they're awesome.

And I can be busy as I'll get out. You know, you just have this, like, you know, you just have this like crazy life. A lot of us are, you know, in these quarantine lives, but it's still, still really busy. Right. But it's amazing how you can be so busy and around people. And then every once in a while you still feel kinda lonely.

So, and I mean, I'm speaking from experience. And so I just think that that's where we have to take that deep step back. You know, if you're single, if you're a teen, if you're a young adult, if you're someone that is in, you know, in a broken home or even in a home that's. Not easy to be in. Amen. I think it's really just to, to, to fight that feeling of, or, or fight that, like feeling of slipping into any type of, you know, despair or desperation, um, or like that isolation, sometimes we have to like kind of talk, not only like, okay, well I'm here, I'm acknowledging it.

But then also, how did I get here? Why did I get here and how can I work my way out of. Um, cuz God did not make us to be lonely. He did not make us to be on our own. He did not make us to be out fending for ourselves. Like mm-hmm he wants us to be close to him. He wants us to be, you know, sitting in his sacred heart where he can protect us and he can love us and he can comfort us.

Even if there's a storm raging in your life, you can find that place like you can, you can curl up in the sacred heart of Jesus. As St. Faustina says it so beautifully, you can curl up in that place and find, you know, your identity, find rest, find safety, but he's not gonna just leave you there. He is going to bring you close to himself.

And then he's gonna introduce you to people who are going to love you. Well, he's going to introduce you to people who are gonna love you the way he desires to love you. And so I just really encourage everybody out there. You know, if you're feeling lonely, if you're feeling, um, isolated, if you're feeling that division in your life, that you know, the, the twisting.

I know that it's easier said than done, but it is worth taking the time to look at all those little aspects and say, wow, like, how did I get here? And what do I need to do to get out of this? Because I don't want you there. And I know our Lord doesn't want you there either. I love what you said too. Just naming it is so powerful.

And oh my gosh. You know, doing when you're exploring it, one thing that's really helped me. And there's a lot of research behind this too. We're actually writing a book. Someone along these lines is writing. Writing is oh, cool. Incredibly powerful journaling. Exactly. Oh my gosh. Yes, exactly. Well, and I know it's a little bit hard right now, um, with all the quarantine stuff, but some of my most powerful, like self-reflective times has been.

Sneaking to the adoration chapel, or like sneaking to the tabernacle or sneaking to your church, or, you know, like, you know, for a lot of people who aren't even religious, you know, it's just like, I just going on a nature, walk, going somewhere quiet and taking a piece of paper and a pen. Do not take anything else.

Just take a journal and a pen. Don't take your phone, don't take your computer. Don't take, I mean, it's amazing how hard it is to just stay like in the moment when you have nothing else with you. So like try to get away for like an hour, like, you know, whether where, whatever you are, whatever, you know, whatever is your kind of quiet, peaceful place, where you can be alone with your thoughts.

Um, Dude do that. You know what I mean? Like, I think that's so important, like to, to write it down cuz when you name it, when you name it, you claim it and you write it down, you own it. Amen. That's awesome. Good stuff. We can talk about loneliness all day, but another struggle is shame. I think it's easy when you're single to feel like something's wrong with you because you know, nobody wants you, nobody wants to date you.

Nobody seems interested in you and you may wonder things like, oh, is it my looks? Is it my personality? And it could lead to the conclusion that I'm just not enough. I must be flawed. Yes. Because otherwise I would be in a relationship. I would be married by now for some people in the same life. Um, yeah.

And so we, we have some questions kind of along these lines, but I want you to be able to speak to that. The first question's from Shane and Shane said, uh, how do you overcome the fear and shame of not being chosen? Oh my gosh. Yes. Man. Okay. So I'm so glad we have four hours to break down all of this awesome stuff.

Um, it's really hard. I always, I always joke that podcasts are so fun because I feel like I have answers you America's like solve world in one minute. You know, this is my miss answer to all these questions. Cause like I really, the Lord gave me the gift of gab. And if you ask me questions about shame and relationships and you know, identity, I'm gonna go on for days.

So here's the deal. I would say, um, to answer this concisely for Shane and, and this whole idea of like that I wasn't the one chosen and like being single. It is so hard. I, you know, my whole ministry I've been doing, I've been doing ministry for like 10 years. And I really think that when you boil it down, like down, down, down, down, down, down, down, um, I used to talk about so many like random things.

And then that kinda got to a point where I was like, everything kind of goes back to like three or four core things. You know what I mean? Like there's like core questions. And the whole topic of shame and all of that kind of runs, it runs right into, I think what would be one of the other like foundation stones, which is, I think the two questions that we as human beings ask ourselves the most, we very rarely ask them out loud, but we ask them in our heads all the time and in different ways is, am I enough?

And am I ever gonna be truly loved? Hmm. Like, am I enough? And am I ever gonna be truly loved? And they, they go very closely together. Right. Because, because, you know, it's one of those things where if you see what you want and someone has it, it's like, it's so easy as a human being to look at that and then go, well, I mu like for some reason them being up on that, you know, I don't wanna say pedestal or that stare, that's like right above where I wanna be, you know, whatever that is.

Like, whatever I'm looking at them, they're standing on, let's say a bench. You know what I mean? I see them standing there and because I can see them and they have what I want. Therefore I'm a notch down because I'm looking at what I want and I don't have it. Therefore, somehow. Like you just said, shame, you know, identity, you know, insecurity, doubt, fear, anger, bitterness, how many emotions can we put to that?

Right. Like, I mean, totally. I could talk for days on bitterness and, and I think that everybody out there, you know, especially you're restored community who, and again, I don't have, I wish I had a counseling degree cause I, I can't speak to this as articulately as I would like to, but like, I've walked with thousands of people over the last, you know, years because I'm so close to, um, Benedictine college is I, I live across the street from 2000 college students and, and the, the thing that I just, I think I need your people, your people, I think I want your restored community to hear like very loud and clear is just that.

I really want them to shine that light. That can be kind of hard to talk about, which is that whole idea of like, when other people have like the family that you want, or other people have the marriage that you want, or the relationship that you want or whatever. I think it's really important to look at it and say, just because that's not what you have now does not mean that that's not what's in store for you.

And I think that for a lot of single. It's really easy to take the past and project it upon the future. So you take that divorce and everything that happened as your parents were separated. You take that moment when you were bullied in seventh grade, you take that moment when you were dumped by your first boyfriend or girlfriend, you take that moment when you're standing with a group of girls and some like random guys come by and like call out one girl as hot.

And you are just standing there feeling super awkward, right? Like, I mean, you, you have all these experiences in life where you were not chosen or it wasn't the what, like you bring all of that to the present. And then we are so good as human beings at like throwing it on the future as well. Like we take all of that and we just put it on the future and we go, well, this is how it's always gonna be like, this is my, this is what's gonna happen.

And, and one of the, the people that I love to raise up for this is my husband. My husband comes. Uh, I don't, if your people don't know him, I, I call him SW. His name is Dr. Andrew Swafford. We all call him doc SW, SW SW daddy P. Um, he has lots of names, but he teaches, uh, here at Benedictine and he comes from a very broken home, like extremely broken home.

And, um, It's one of those things where like, his parents are married, but we're not really sure why, you know what I mean? Like, so just think broken home, right? Think like a lot of verbal abuse, he grew up just like really doubting and questioning his worth and doubting and questioning a lot of what he wanted for his life because of how broken his, his childhood he was.

And so, you know, fast forward into, you know, college, high school, making decisions, just kinda living for the moment, you know, it, it was really hard to like look forward. And I remember, um, after his conversion, um, with he actually, we, we both had our conversions through, um, at Benedictine college through focus, but also through Beth and Ted Shree, Dr.

SRE and Beth. And I know that, um, you'll either know them or they, or your people do know them. And, um, there was something really beautiful. We, when we got engaged, I remember one. I found, we were like driving and all of sudden, like SW got really quiet. And I was like, what? And he's like, he just started crying.

And I mean, he is a big, like six foot football player. So like, you know, I was like, whoa, the dude's crying. Like this is an important moment. Like something's going on? And he just looked at me and he goes, I don't know if I can do this whole marriage and, and fatherhood thing, because I don't know what it should look like.

But, and, and he's like, I don't know if I know what it takes and I dunno if I can do this. And it was such, it was this beautiful moment. Like, I just don't know what if I don't know how to do this. And it was so beautiful because, um, I don't know. It was just like in the moment I just looked at him and I go, the reason why you're gonna be an amazing father and an amazing husband is because you want it.

and you're willing to work for it. And so for all your single people out there who are feeling shame from past relationships, if you're feeling like my family's really broken, if you're feeling like I'm late to this ball game, like I'm late to this, like understanding why my life has been the way it is and it's been dark and I've made mistakes.

And like, I feel shame. I I'm gonna hold up my husband, his poster boy, because he is, he was exactly where a lot of you are, which is like, am I too far gone? Like, am I have I already screwed up my kids? Even though I haven't had them yet, like, am I gonna be able to be a husband like that? I wanna be, and then does anybody want me because I'm kind of a mess and like, there's gonna be baggage for sure.

And I just, I really hold up someone like SW again, he's my example because I know him so well. And I know his story. So intimately it's easier for me to. It's almost my story now because we're married. You know what I mean? Like I like that's how deeply I feel it. And so I just, I wanna hold that up to all to Shane, to everybody out there.

Who's like feeling that, like, what if I've never chosen? What if so, what if I'm continue to be overlooked? What if I continue to feel forgotten or dismissed or all those words? And I just really, I want you to like, bring that to like, kinda what we said with the loneliness. Like let's acknowledge. Let's acknowledge that you're feeling that way.

Let let's be real about it. Right. That's good. But you can't take your whole past and throw it upon the future and be like, this is the way it's always gonna be. You know what I mean? And, and God has a plan for you, you know, like I, I know that, um, it might not look the way that you want it to look, but God has a plan for you.

And then the second part that I'll answer this is, um, so like with that shame and just like feeling you're not being chosen, um, I'm gonna couple that with a story from my really good friend. Um, Jackie angel, Jackie angel, France, Jackie Franwell angel, uh, Bobby and Jackie angel are very good friends of ours.

And I love, I love listening to Jackie talk and she gives great stories. She's very real, but she said something to me one time and I just wanna share it real quick. Um, is this, this whole, like, I keep getting rejected, but she, um, she dated. I don't know, like 20 guys, like, it's unbelievable. Like, like she would, she would, she was trying so desperately to find a spouse in her twenties mm-hmm and she would just like, she's like, I dated so many different people.

I threw myself at so many different people, you know, she just talks about like how almost like she felt like she was so incomplete because she hadn't got that figured out. Like, who's the one I wanna start this life. And she just kept, kept waiting and being like, what is wrong with me? You know? Like that was always her thing.

It's like, why did my other friend, you know, end up married and not me and blah, blah. And, um, she said something in this talk that I just really stuck with me and she ended up getting married. I think she was 31 when her and Bobby, uh, got married. So they were in their early thirties. And I think for a lot of young adults, like teens and young adults, I think it's like, we feel like that is ancient of days, right?

Like that's so old. And I, and I just wanna tell you what she said is she said around the time she turned like 20 or seven, she had just been throwing herself at relationships and, you know, just, it was just kind of all going wrong and she kept feeling inadequate. And then she finally just said, one day it just hit her.

And she just said, you know, if I'm not happy as a single, I will never be happy, married. And she was like, if I can't figure this out, because I can't, you know, if people follow my ministry, they know like one of my lines is you can't make anyone your savior. Like if you, if you try to make someone your savior, you will crush them under the weight of that.

They cannot be that for you, no matter how great they are, they cannot be that for you. And you will always end up disappointed. And I just, I bring that because that it couples so well with what Jackie was saying, which is like, if I, if I can't be happy, single, I'll never be happy or fulfilled or whole or healed in this marriage.

If I can't bring myself wholly to this marriage, you know, I have to use this single time to figure this out. And, and then she said part two of that little saying is she always said, I would rather be. Happy single than miserable, married, because I took all of my crap into that marriage. I would rather have taken the time to figure this out.

And that's what she said. She said those years really helped her to kinda like hone who she was. And so, you know, in my ministry, I always tell people like, don't shoot the messenger. Like please don't throw rotten tomatoes at me. I love you. Please. Don't throw objects at me. Singlehood in a lot of ways is a great gift.

Yeah. You work on what you work, what you're that's given you time to kind. I wanna see, I wanna, I wanna, I call it kinda like holy selfishness, you know, like, like almost like this time where you can look in your heart and, and, and take that time to figure out who you are and ask like some of these hard questions we're talking about right now.

Yeah. Because once you get into a relationship, once you get into a marriage, it's kind of go time. It's like, okay, you better bring your big boy or big girl, virtue pants, you better put 'em on and it's time to play. You know what I mean? Like it's time to go. Um, and so I always say go day, you know, people always think that like, game time is on the altar saying I do, but game time is right now, wherever you're sitting right now, listening to this podcast today is game day.

It is game day right now for you to figure out exactly who you wanna be in that marriage and being convicted in the fact that whoever you marry, they are not gonna be your everything. They are not gonna complete you. They are not gonna be perfect. They are not gonna be any of those things. They're gonna be the person that you wanna run in this life with you.

They're gonna be your workout, buddy. They're gonna be the one you laugh with. The one you have fun with the one that's co that is a compliment to your personality, but it's also gonna be the one that you're gonna grow with and you guys are gonna help each other through hard times. Um, so, so getting prepared for that is like really important.

And I I've spent years of my life talking about how important it's, so don't wish this time away do not wish this time away. And I know it's, it's easier said than done. So everyone out there hear me say it is not easy to be single. I know you're ache. I remember your ache. I, I, I know it. I, I, I respect it.

It's okay to feel. But don't just, don't sit in that again. Don't sit in that loneliness and in that despair and in that isolation, like pick it, you know, do all the things we're talking about, pick up your journal, head to a quiet place, make some lists of what you wanna do, how you wanna grow, make some lists about what you're looking for in, in the opposite sex.

Like, and this is your time to really figure all of that out. And don't be caught up in the whole, like, like I'm not enough, who's doing what I wanna do. All that stuff. Like you just have to really trust that, you know, God got you, he's got a plan and he has got great timing, even if we don't feel like it's our timing really good.

One of the things I say when I speak and I, I honestly needed to hear this myself is we're not doomed to repeat our parents' mistakes. We can write around stories. And I love what you said there, because it's, it gives so much hope because we do feel that we are kind of doomed to repeat them often. And, uh, in episode 13 of the podcast, we talk with a psychologist about that, how we, um, you know, tend to repeat.

Our parents behavior, the behavior we saw in our families and how we, we can avoid it. Yeah. So people want more on that episode, 13 0 13. That sounds amazing. And for the record, for the record, my husband, um, anybody that knows him would say that, I mean, he really is legit, like the best father and the best husband that you could ask for.

And it's because he really wanted it. You know what I mean? And, and he said, you know, I took everything that I didn't have and I took everything that I always wanted and I did. Like how beautiful is that, you know, as a Testament to, I saw the way my parents' marriage was, and I decided that's not what I want, so what is the opposite?

Or, or what could I take that was from my parents' marriage and say, okay, this is how I wanna bring, you know, a different twist to my marriage or whatever. I mean, and, and here's the other thing. I come from a family where my parents are married and they've been married for like 40 years almost. And no marriage is perfect.

Like nobody's parents are perfect. You know what I mean? So like, I think that that's the other thing is, is this is something, you know, my marriage isn't perfect. Nobody's marriage is perfect. And so it's, it's really taking it and saying, what can I learn from this? How can I heal from this? And how can I grow in this?

And that, those are hard. They take time, but they're good questions to ask. Absolutely. Kendra asked the question, which I think you already answered it, but I'm just gonna throw it out there to see if there's anything you wanna add. Sure. Uh, she said getting married seems to be this external goal that marks a young adult is doing well in society.

Um Hmm. So she asked, you know, why is that? And why can't I just be growing on my own? So it seems like she she's getting that like pressure, like, oh, I'm not married yet. I'm in my twenties. I'm in my late twenties, whatever . Yeah. Why? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I dunno. I mean, it's so funny how our society works, right?

Because like on one hand it feels like, yeah, marriage might be kinda like a status symbol of some kind like, oh, they have a job. They're married, they have a kid. Therefore they are. You know, whatever status, whatever that is. Right. You know what I mean? But then on the other hand, I feel like I get in a lot of debates on whether or not people will even wanna be married anymore.

Yeah. Um, and just like, I get into a lot of, um, not debates, just, you know, I, I go to a lot of like, you know, big colleges, like universities all over the country, all over the world. And a lot of the questions are like, can you defend dating? And whether it really exists or whether it's needed. You know, and I'm like, whoa, here we are.

you know what I mean? Like, I mean, it's, it's, it is an honest question, you know, because yeah. I mean, what is marriage to a lot of people? I mean, what is relationships to a lot of people it's like, you hook up, you, you know, you maybe like maybe live together for a while. I, I was talking to this one girl on the east coast, or it was a group of guys and girls on the east coast and this girl, I was like, what's dating like here.

And this girl was like, well, I mean, people just hook up. And then I guess when like guys deem the girl worthy to be like, seen what they're in public, or like spend money on her, then I like, guess they're dating. And I was like, wow. I think I just threw up in my mouth. Like, that's awful. You know what I mean?

But that's exactly where a lot of the culture is. And then what happens is, is they, you know, they end up just like being together or they move in together and they get like a plant and a dog and they join their bank account. And then it's all of a sudden, it's like, well, I have 500 invitations and my dress is hanging up.

And the guy's like, yeah, like I've, you know, I've been with her for three years. Like, I guess I should marry her. So we have a lot of marriages that are just kind of. I don't wanna say like, Stu they just like, kinda like stumble upon marriage and they're not really like actively looking at, so I would say to Kendra, like, I think that seeing it as a social status or feeling like that pressure to be married, to like achieve something, um, I would say like, let's, let's not get married for that reason and let's also not get married just cuz we stumble into it.

You know what I mean? That we just like, I don't know. I guess I'll just get married, you know, like those are both, I think marriage has to be one of the, I mean, gosh, this could be like a six hour long answer, but you know, it has to be one of those things where you go, wow. Like, like I feel called to this.

Like I feel to, I feel called to pursue a life of radical love where I put myself aside and choose you even when it's hard. in those sacrificial moments. I want you to be the father or the mother of my children. I want to like create life with you in our image where we raise them. And like, this is like, this is like radical and people don't talk about it.

Like this. It's just like, well, we got married, it's fine. You know what I mean? It's like, when you start really thinking about what you're doing and what you're saying yes to, and what you're, you know, putting on the table, it's pretty amazing. I mean, you're joining to someone in a way that is so radical, you know what I mean?

And so I would just say to Kindra, like, it is everything that it should be, and you should never be pressured to feel like you have to have this just as a symbol. You know what I mean? Cause it's not easy, but it's so worth it. It's so beautiful. Um, but yeah, I, I would say, I would tell Kendra, like, girl, it is okay.

You do not feel like you have to have a RS in front of your name to be who you need to be. Awesome. I wanna shift a little bit to talking about something that you said making the most of the single years. And we had a bunch of questions actually on this. And Gerard asked, he said, how do you make the most of the time that you're single?

What should you focus on? And Shane asked the question as well, but I wanna throw it to you on that. I can go on later. Oh my gosh. I love it. Virtue, virtue, virtue, virtue, virtue. I dunno. Virtue is like, um, would you define that for, for anyone? Who's just not aware. Yeah, totally. So my ministry, I actually ended up naming it, emotional virtue ministries because my husband and I were on a date night and I was like, I don't even know what I talk about.

Like, it was almost to a point where I had to name it something and I didn't even know how to like. Articulate it mm-hmm . And so we decided we were talking over dinner at, on a date night and he's like, well, really, all you do is talk about virtue. Like, like you talk about virtue all the time. And I was like, well, what, what do you mean by that?

Cause, I mean, it's really hard to define. Right. Mm-hmm um, and people throw around and I think a lot of people are like, oh, okay. So like Jane Austin, right? Like porch, city, you know what I mean? Like, I think virtue is just such an kinda an old time word, but I had a, I had a, um, a pastor one time, um, come out to me and he's like, you're bringing virtue back.

And I was like, oh my gosh, making virtue sexy again. That's where I'm at right now. So, um, it was kind a joke, but I totally took it as like a couple, but so like virtue the way, like, I would say like the old, like of old, the like raw definition is called virtue is the habitual disposition to do good. So that's like the technical, I would say the technical definit of it.

So breaking it down. I am such, I am in the habit of doing and choosing the good thing to do or the right thing to do. I'm so in the habit of that, that it's become my second nature. Okay. So think about a virtuous person that, you know, their, their qualities, what are the, what are the qualities of like a virtuous person, right?

What would they be? So you could go through, I mean, this could be like lit a litany of virtues, right? Totally courage, honesty, anything courage, honesty, patience, Lord, help me. Patience. um, you know, modesty of inten, modesty of intentions. So, so think about someone who's like not jealous, not, not vain, someone who doesn't constantly compare and compete and tear others down, right?

Like someone who is of, of sec, like someone who's secure someone, who's confident, someone who's able to articulate the truth. Someone who stands up for the truth, someone who's selfless. You know, you start going. I mean, I could talk about this for days, but I think, just think about those virtues, those characteristics that are not easy, but you will, you like gravitate like a magnet to people who are virtuous mm-hmm amen.

Like when you're looking for someone to marry and be the father of your children or the mother of your children, my friends, you are looking for a virtuous person, we all know what the opposite of that looks like. Right. Think about someone who's selfish. Self-centered proud. Jealous, manipulative. I mean, I keep on for days.

So it's sometimes it's easier to talk about the opposite than what it is. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. Um, so virtue for me, when I think about it is. We all know, like we all, we're human, right. We're fallen. We all screw up. We all sin, we all make mistakes. We all have our triggers. We all have our things that like, cause us into a downward spin.

We all have our things. We struggle with temptations. We all have the things that we struggle with. Right. Virtue would be the thing that virtue would be what we go to, to like have that virtue stand in the gap. You know what I mean? So like, like I always tell people like lead with virtue and what that means is like, we always want, we're just gonna naturally wanna do the selfish, comfortable, lazy thing.

Like, that's just, I mean, I'm, I'm, I dunno if I'm speaking for myself here, but like, I mean, you naturally want to be comfortable and selfish and self-centered and kind of do what you wanna do, right? Yeah. And pick what's most comfortable and pick. Most, um, like enjoyable, right? Like pleasurable, like, I mean, I don't think anybody would say that they don't think laying on the couch and eating hohos and watching movies for like six or eight hours.

Isn't the greatest thing that's ever happened. You know what I mean? Like we all just wanna be like, comfortable do what you wanna do. Yeah. Which, you know, virtue just stands in the gap and says, okay, I'm gonna have, you know, I'm gonna. I'm gonna have two hohos and I'm gonna watch one movie, you know what I mean?

Like virtue says, you know, virtue says I'm going to break free from this sin or this temptation, because I want to be free. You know? So, so I think a lot of your listeners know that, you know, Jason Everett, he's like a big brother to me. We, we do Chasity project, you know? So, so, so many teams, like, you know, I walk into, you know, Matt, Fred and, and Jason and Chris and, and so many of us do high school assemblies, you know?

So I always walk into a high school assembly and I can always tell that like, They're like, oh, here comes like the Chasity lady. You know what I mean? Like, oh, here she comes. Like, she's probably a total prude. She's like here to ruin my life. Like tell me no, no, no, no, no. Like that, I'm a terrible person. You know, like they always have this like persona of who they think I'm gonna be.

And so it's really beautiful to be able to walk into a high school assembly with a thousand kids and be able to like completely rip to shred everything they thought I was gonna talk about. Because what I, I come to talk about is freedom. And what I come to talk about is being loved for who you are and not letting someone use you like a, like a virtuous person is someone who can say, I'm gonna rise above whatever, spontaneous, emotional, or physical or sexual desire I have in this moment.

I'm gonna rise above this and I'm gonna set this aside and I'm gonna choose you. I am going to choose you. And the true and the good and the beautiful. For myself and for my beloved, because you're worth it because I didn't come to use you emotionally or physically. I'm not here to tear you down. I'm not here to take from you.

I am here to love you. Well, I am here to protect your heart. I am here to guard your heart and it's like, all those, all those, like things come up to someone, you know? And even my like hardest, like, you know, my football boys, I always got on the senior football team in the front row. Right? Like they're always there.

They're always like senior boys right in the front. And I think they want to hate me. And they can't because they know that that deep down, even they want to be loved like that they don't wanna be cheated on. They don't wanna be used. They don't wanna be slept with and dumped. They don't want any of that.

Like all, like everybody's sitting in there. I cannot argue with what she's talking about because deep down, even if we are steeped in things that are not good for us, even if we're steeped in sin, it doesn't matter. Like there's still that longing in your heart where you want to be free to choose what's best for someone.

And that's why, again, Chasity project, you know, it's so it's really, it's really good because what, what I say in a lot of these talks is if someone can do that for you, like, let's, let's say you're a college student, you're a high school student out there. You're a young adult. Right. And you're like, why should I care?

Like why? Like people can sleep with each other. Like, like, I, I love them. I love him. I love her. Like, this is how I'm gonna show my love. And I, and I always, you know, I always say, you know, I get it. Like I totally get it. Um, but how do you know that, that person's not just using you for sex? Like how do you know?

And they're always. I, I don't, I'm like, yeah, I know like how, but how do you like answer me? Like, how do you know that they're not just using you emotionally to feel enough, or to feel affirmed or to feel like they have like that power over you? How do you know they're not using you like that? And they're like, I can't, I don't, I dunno that.

And I was like, here's the deal? This is the beauty of it. If someone can rise above whatever they, anybody can sleep with anybody. Right. That's pretty easy. Not everybody can have the virtue to say, I know what I want in this moment, but I'm gonna set it aside because I want to love you. Well, and in this, and this is where I think this is the boldest thing for, I think this is one of the boldest claims for Chasity.

If someone can set that aside and choose you, what can't they do for you? Like if you're in a relationship right now, anybody out there listening, and you're like, Sarah, I don't know. I mean, we sleep together. Like this is important to our relationship. I want him, or I want her to know that I love them.

Like if I take this out, how are they gonna know that I love them. I get that. That's one of the things I get a lot. And I'm like, that makes sense to me. Like, I understand why you would feel that way, but if you're in a relationship and you're contemplating. Is this the right? Is this the right relationship for me?

Can I see myself marrying this person? Are they gonna be the kind of person I wanna walk through life with for 50 years? Raise my kids. Is this the kind of person that I know is going to be there in the thick and thin with me? When you start asking questions like that? That's when you start to see man, if they can do this for me, if they can die to themselves sexually, to be able to say, like, I know what I want right now, but I, I choose you.

I choose what's best for us. I choose you. If they can do that for you, what can't they do for you? And what, what, one of the reasons I love fell in love with my husband was because I, we made that commitment to each other after lives of, of the opposite. Like we made that commitment to each other. When we got, when we started dating and I watched SWA die to himself over and over and over again in the small things and the small things and the small things.

And then in the big things and the times where it was like, you know, like he was so good about not putting us in compromising situations. Like I just, I looked back on all that and I was like, man, that is what made me fall in love with him. And that's what made me trust him and know that when we got married, this was for the long haul.

This is the real deal I have seen. This guy died himself. And now I watch him die to himself over and over again for my kids and for myself. And it's just so gorgeous. And so. I don't know how I'm like, I don't know why I'm like making a case for Chasity right now. I don't even remember what the question was, but no, no, it's really good.

I just wanna like share, I just wanna share that with everybody. Cause I think that kinda what I told you before, how we could talk about a lot of different things, but it kind of comes down to those core questions. And if you're feeling like you're not enough, if you're feeling lonely, if you're feeling kind of overlooked, it is so easy to want to just throw yourself into the arms of the opposite sex and be like, make me feel.

Like that is so easy. And so that's what I see in a lot of young adults and what I see in a lot of, of teens and high schoolers and college students and young adults is like, you know what? I'm tired of feeling nothing or just brokenness or hollowness. And so I'd rather feel something, even if I'm going to be used.

I don't know if I care anymore. And I just feel like someone has to, like, someone has to step into that gap and say, I want a life of virtue for you because I want, I do not want you to be used emotionally or physically. You are worth more than that. And let me hug you and look you in the eye and tell you that you are worth more and you are gonna, you are gonna grow in ways that you never knew possible by putting your putting aside those, some of those emotions and some of those things, and being able to take those desires and say, they're good.

They're awesome. They're amazing. And they're reserved for this place. That's gonna be so beautiful in our marriage, and I'm gonna prove to you my love. by being able to set them aside and it's, it's really gorgeous. And again, that message is not out there very often. And in a lot of teen, when I walk into a high school, I, they they're, they look at me like their, I mean, their eyes are just so open.

It, it it's really beautiful. I think, I think a lot of times their head spin, they're like, man, I wanted to hate you. And I can't disagree with you right now. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. Um, and, and I don't, I, I don't cut to the chase quite this fast either. Like I get an hour to explain everything. So it's kind of beautiful.

I don't actually talk about all that till the end. You know what I mean? Cause you have to, you have to build that case. Like the, the case is, is a long thing to draw out, but it's, it's probably one of the most important decisions you'll ever make in your life is who am I gonna run with? Who am I gonna date?

Who am I gonna marry? Who, who is gonna be my squad? Who's gonna be my crew. That is the most important decision you'll ever make. Is who do you run with? And if you're dating someone right now, or you date someone in the future that you can't see yourself marrying that you're just dating, but you can't see yourself marrying them.

You are dating heartache. That is what you're dating. And I, I say that and I just see people look at me like, shoot, I have a long conversation to have tonight. You know what I mean? Like that you have to kind of like talk about this. And I've had a lot of couples come back to me and be like, we listened to, we heard your talk together.

And our relationship wasn't the same, because we just realized some of those little easy pitfalls it is to just jump in, you know? So, yeah. So I don't know, take that for what it's worth, but virtue is the it's freedom, man. It's not rules. It's not, don't do this. Don't do that. You can't do this. You can't do that.

It's it's freedom. It's who do I wanna be? It's it's being able to say, I, you know, like Michael Jordan, you know, it's like, can, can you play one on one against Michael Jordan? Yeah. I'm free to, I'd get my butt kicked because I'm not free in the sense that I have the same virtue I have the same moves and I have the same stamina and I have the same workout and the same, you know, all of that, that he.

Freedom is when you can say like, no, I'm free to play this game because I've been working at it. I've been busting my tail. I've been putting the hours in, like I am virtuous and I am free to love in this radical way because I am here to play. Yeah. Like that is so beautiful. There's nothing holding you back.

Yeah. Amen. Yeah. Nothing chaining me down. Yeah, no, exactly. So I think what you're saying basically is virtue is what you need to focus on when you're single and just preparing for the future, whatever that is, whether that's you as a husband, a wife, or maybe God called you somewhere else, it's really the foundation that we need to build our lives upon.

And if we can do that, then we can build on top of that self denial on top of that self discipline on top of that virtue of Chasity, like you said, and I've found that too. I, you know, I don't think Chasity, of course isn't the only virtue needed in marriage. I, you and I both know that, but it is its so foundational, like the, everything that comes along with it, the self mastery just makes it so much easier and happier.

Yeah. And, and I have in my book, I have a whole chapter just on, on virtue and ju well, I have two chapters on virtue, but one of 'em is just on going through different virtues to work on and, and really breaking them down, which is. I took a lot of time doing that because, um, I remember in high school and co and even early in college where, and maybe some of your listeners, um, can exper or have experiences this too, but it's almost like everyone tells you, like, what not to do.

Like, don't do this and don't do this and don't do this, but no one tells you what actually to do. You know what I mean? It's like, you, you finally have a taste of, of what you're like, oh man. Like I know what I don't want. Like, I've been, you know, I've been cheated on, I've been used, I've been dumped. I've been, you know, I've had all these things happen to me and you're like, okay, so I don't want any of that, but what do I actually want?

Like, what do I, what do I, what should I be doing right now? And so I, I spent a lot of time in my book answering the, what should I be doing right now? Because I felt like sometimes we all get tired of just hearing the nose and like, you know, and sometimes the, and then the other question is why, why can't I do that?

And so I tried really hard to answer the why and then the what to do now and how to. How to move forward, how to get excited about this. I mean, I get jacked about talking about virtue. Like I get like so excited, you know what I mean? Like, I, it pumps me up because I was an athlete and I understand like hard work and stuff.

And, um, you know, my husband and his conversion story, it's really funny cuz he was a football player and he's like at the end of the day, you know, badminton is just as much as sport as football. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm, like at the end of the day, they're all beautiful and they're fun and they're great, but they're all just games.

And we spend so much time on different games in our life, but we don't spend any time on the game of life. Mm. And that game of life is that life of virtue, that life of freedom, that life of faith, that life of conviction, you know, that life of, of learning how to communicate well, how to disagree with someone and still be able to love them.

Like, you know, we're all face to face right now with like enduring family relationships. I mean, Talk about a growing opportunity or a time to just hit your life, being quarantined with your family. I mean, it's really an opportunity to say, wow, where do I wanna grow and virtue and where have I found myself not as free because I'm, I'm, you know, chained back by something or I'm, you know, I'm chained down by this anger or this bitterness or this resentment.

Um, I mean, we could talk for a long time about that, but I think that virtue just remember virtue is it's a lot of self discipline. It's a lot of, um, healing. It's a lot of virtue or it's a lot of like dis like having that discipline of desire, you know, like I'm, I'm disciplining this, not. Not because it's bad, but because I wanna be able to hone it and control it and use it where I want to be able to put it and not just let my emotions control me.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And you and I both believe that Love's the meaning of life. And if that's true, which I believe it is then in a way, I think that the greater your capacity to love the greater, your freedom, the less your capacity to love, the less freedom you have. And so you can look at things like pornography, you can look at, uh, other just unhealthy behaviors and you can see that isn't freeing you to love that isn't increasing your capacity to love.

And so therefore it's making you less free and I've been on both sides of this too, and me too, so miserable, like so empty. When living that life. And so, yeah, I never, never want to go back, so really good stuff there. Um, we're gonna tell you guys how you can get the book at the end. And so, uh, hang on for that, cuz this conversation, we can't cover everything I wish we could but, but we can't.

I think too, I talk too much. I know miss America can't go that I just go too long. I'm sorry. No, no, it's great. Um, but, but we'll tell you people how they can get more. Uh, Jasmine, Jasmine asked the question, she said, uh, what are some tips on being honest with yourself when discerning, if you're even ready, uh, to start dating or, uh, a romantic relationship.

Oh cool. Great question. Your people have great questions, man. Restored community rocking it. I feel like it's, it's one of those things like how do you know you're ready? You know what I mean? Like, you know, oh, I'm ready for this test. Oh, I'm ready for this, you know, relationship I'm ready for this marriage.

You know, it's like, you know, there's always gonna be that moment where you're. Man, I think I'm ready. I think I can do this. I I've prepared. You know what I mean? Definitely. You're gonna have a moment where you're like, um, I think that there's probably two sides of that one is nobody's perfect. And so I just, I really want all of your listeners to take a deep breath.

Like everybody take a deep breath in and let it out and just really sit with the fact that we are all a work in progress. Uh, I saw a, a, a quote the other day that said it's okay to be both a masterpiece and a work in progress. And I just, I like really resonated with that because it's like, man, there is that moment where you're just like, am I just, I mean, are we even taking divots out of this?

You know what I mean? Like, you feel like you're working towards something or you're trying to like work on getting ready. Like she said, ready for a relationship or, you know, like we just talked about all this virtue stuff and whatnot and, and it's hard, you know, we're never gonna just like show up and be like, okay guys, I I'm here.

I'm perfect. I'm healed. I'm restored. I'm whole and I'm ready to rock. You know what I mean? Like that's, mm-hmm, , that's just not even possible. That's not even, and, and praise God that it's not right. Cause why would we need community or our Lord or whatever, you know, like it's, it's, I mean, I was in confession one time and I was talking about, self-reliance like, I'm kind of a control freak.

I dunno if there's anybody else out there that struggles with that. But, um, like just like trying to control situations. And um, sometimes it's really good. This, this pastor, this priest was telling me, he's like, man, what a gift that you're wrestling with this. And I wanted to be like, gross, take it away. I don't wanna deal with this anymore.

You know what I mean? Like, like I wrestle with this, like this, I want to hand my whole life over, you know, in trust to, to God, to my husband, to my kids. Like you wanna just like radically trust and yet we still kind of clinging, right. We still kind of grasp. And I think that, you know, for a single, like you guys like young adults and, and high school college, you know, all of that.

There's so many, like endless possibilities. Like I could go here, I could go there. I could date this person. I could date that person. I could do this. I could do that. Like, there's all these like openings, you know? So it's really hard to feel. Yep. I I'm, I completely figured this out and I'm completely ready.

You know what I mean? So totally. Um, but speaking from experience, I think with my husband, like my husband and I, we actually got married pretty young. We were like 22, 23, we got married a year after college. And, um, that was like the beauty of like, remember us talking about Bobby and Jackie getting married, like at 31.

And then the beauty of Andy and I getting married at like 22, 23, you know, we did a lot of that growing together during our early years of marriage. And, and we learned a lot from each other and sacrificing. So it's like, it's not impossible to keep growing, obviously in your marriage, you don't have to like show up to marriage and be like, yeah, I have no other work to do.

I'm here. I'm ready to go. Because I would say some of my most like prolific growth came early in marriage and that was through like the, you know, iron sharpens iron. Right. You know, so it was through some of that, you know, some of those marital like hard times and some of those hard times just in life.

So it's really beautiful. I think I would, I would tell Jasmine, like, Don't stress. Like don't worry about being, having it all figured out. Don't worry about all of that. Like part of this like radical trust is saying, I know I'm not perfect. I'm working really hard. I'm a masterpiece. You know, God loves me.

Like my identity is I'm a beloved daughter or son of God, like that's my identity. Everything else is labels. And I'm gonna just like, be confident in this, that, that I want to be along for the ride. I wanna be along for the journey and I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that control. That is an illusion. Thank you, father.

Mike Schmitz control is an illusion. Security is an illusion. It's all an illusion, but we grasp at it. And so I think just saying like, I'm going to have confidence and I'm going to have trust and I'm going to have peace in this idea of, I'm really excited to see what my life holds, but I'm not gonna sit here and be like a, you know, like a divine Nintendo player and feel like I'm gonna be able to manipulate every move and, you know, AA B, B CC up that's the right move.

Like we don't know that, you know what I mean? So, so I would just say, you know, that I had, y'all just take a deep breath in and a deep breath out. And I think it's just to say, like, this is this life, like, there's, there's gonna be a lot of unknowns. Um, there's gonna be a lot of walking into something and going.

All right. What's this let's go, you know, but some of those harder times in my life where I, I didn't know what was going on and I had to just trust, um, you know, some of those ended up to be some of my, the biggest blessings of my life. You know, some of the things that just really blew my mind were things that were of none of my doing, or my choosing or my, my picking, or my path me going like, yeah, this is what I'm gonna do.

You know? Like, like even what I do now as a, I never would've ever like every, I never even thought about writing a book. I never thought about giving a talk. I never thought about any of that. Like if you had asked me in high school, what I was gonna do, I was going to open a coffee shop and I wanted to open like a little bookstore in a coffee shop.

Um, like that was what I wanted to do. So like you think about, or even in college, just going to college for, you know, so just let God really, you know, again, Live, try to live your life with open hands and not clench fist. Father, Johnny Burns. One of my dears friends. He always says, he's like, Sarah, you he's like you put your own plans in your hands.

And then, and then you close your fist. He's like, and you're, you're just like white knuckle in it. You're just holding over to your life. Cuz you have this idea of how you want it to go or how you want life to be. And then he is like, he's like, nobody can put new beauty into clench fist. Someone might be trying to hand you a gift.

God may be trying to hand you a gift. You know, something might be coming your way, but your hands are clenched around something else. And you're not able, you're not free to even receive it cuz you're you don't have open hands mm-hmm . And that, that vision, that, that visual for me is huge. You know? Cause I feel myself grasping.

I dunno if you guys ever feel that, like I feel myself like grabbing and trying to hold on and try to keep things the way I want them or keep things where I want or you know, try to make things the way I want them or whatever, whatever that means, you know? And I just really would encourage you guys to like live life with open hands and let, let God surprise you.

Let, like, especially with this whole relationship thing, you know, what do you hear over and over again from people who are in great relationships or beautiful marriages? It's like, yeah. It's like when I stopped trying and when I just started living and I stopped stressing about it, like, it just all fell into place.

You know, I hear that all the time. You know what I mean? So, yeah. Again, one more last thing, nothing good ever happens at a desperation, nothing good ever happens at a desperation. And that is like the number one thing people should remember when they're looking at this whole relationship thing is desperation.

Doesn't bring out the best in us. Amen. And it, it, doesn't typically when you're desperate, when you're worried, when you're anxious, when you're manipulating situations, when you're trying to make something work, when you're crawling, you know, back to people when things are just not, you know, when it's square, peg round hole and you know it, but you're still forcing it, like typically that desperation, um, Typically, it's not a good place, you know, and that's just from years and years and years of walking with people.

No, that's such a good answer. And just speaking to Jasmine here too, I just wanted to add that, like you said, Sarah, I compare this to fitness, cuz we're always gonna be healing. We're always gonna be growing. But in our, in our, uh, fitness lives, we don't ever say, oh, I'm at the peak of fitness. I would never need to do anything with fitness ever again.

I never need to eat healthy workout. I've made it. That's not the case. Yeah. It's an infinite game. We're always gonna be working on it. And so I love what you said, how different people have done this different ways. What I would say of course, to balance that. And I, I know you would agree with this is if there is some extreme struggle with say something like pornography or an addiction like drinking or drugs, then of course that's something you do wanna overcome before entering into a relationship.

And the way you can think about that. Yeah. Is, is there anything that's seriously impeding. You from being able to love. And if that's the case, then you really owe it to yourself, your future spouse, anyone that you date to spend some time, um, healing and getting control for that. And, you know, not in the sense that we have control over everything in our lives, but we do need to, to get to a certain point, but you're right.

It's hard to draw a line. Yeah, no, for sure. We, my husband and I do a lot of marriage prep. And one of the things that we always say is any problem that you have, anything that you're struggling with, even either yourself or with your significant other, anything that you're going through or struggling with before marriage, um, it doesn't go away when you get married, it's magnified.

And so I think a lot of people think, well, when we just get married and, and I'll change or they'll change, or I can change them. And that is a hundred percent not the case, anything that you're struggling with, it doesn't go away. It doesn't change. It's usually magnified. And so part of what, I couldn't agree more with what you just said.

It. How do I wanna bring the EST and the most, you know, the, the healed and most, whole, and most virtuous and the striving, you know, person, the confident person, how can I bring. The most of what I can to that alter. And that's, you know, like you said, working out, you know, if you stop working out, you're gonna get flabby and outta shape, right.

Like you have to maintain that, that kind of condition. Right. And that's the same for the, the spiritual life, the emotional life, the, the life of the interior life, right? Like, that's the same thing. You have to work at it. You have to keep it healing and whole and healthy. That's a, that that's a real thing.

And we don't talk about it enough. No, no we don't. And one thing that Jason and I talked about was I've noticed this, just looking at couples around me and that is the more virtuous the spouses, the happier the marriage. Mm. So true. And so the, yeah, the virtue that you've been talking about so much is so key and so foundational.

I wanna move on. Yeah. I wanna move on. Monica had a question. She said for people from broken homes, how can we approach the topic of fear of failure in marriage with a potential spouse without coming across, like we're planning for a divorce. Sure. Sure, sure. Well, nobody plans for that. That's for sure.

Yeah. Um, man, the feel fear of failure is so real. And um, I mean, one of the things that I, I don't know, like something that really helped me whenever my husband and I got married was, uh, he looked at me at one point and I mean, we, we just really built our entire dating relationship, our engagement, our courtship, all of it, like everything leading up to our marriage.

Like we really went into it with the language and even had like long conversations about the fact that like, like we want this to be for life. Like I'm choosing you. And I want like, I'm not gonna run away. I'm not going to, um, when times get tough, I'm not gonna bail on you. And it was kind of cool, like to, to have that language even going into it because there was kind of that freedom to be able to say.

Are you worried that I would leave? Like, like, do you trust that I would stay? Or do you think I would leave? Or like, how would we handle this? Or how would we handle that? Like, you know what I mean? Like, we were really free on that. And I think talking about that, and I think that it kind of helped, I almost think it helped kind of, you know, dispel that, you know, if you don't ever talk about it, you don't talk about things that could go wrong.

You don't talk about how your past has affected you. Um, if you don't talk about those things, I think it's almost like the big, I think maybe like big pink elephant in the room. Right. So I think it's really good. Like, you know, the fact that, you know, you don't walk into it, the fear failure, but walk into it more with that realistic outlook of, Hey, like I'm doing this for life.

Like I'm signing up for this. So like, whatever we think might go wrong, we should probably deal with it now, before we get married. mm-hmm um, you know what I mean? Like, I think that that's really good. Cause a lot of people. What's so hard about dating and courtship and, and engagement is when you're dating or engaged or whatever, you're like always putting your best foot forward.

You know, you're always like, yeah, of course. I look this way all the time. Of course, of course. I'm virtuous all the time. Like, you know, you can kinda. I don't wanna say like, you know, poured on or whatever, but, but there's something really beautiful about being very honest and an engagement being very, again, that's where chastity plays a huge role.

You know what I mean? You can't just cover everything up with sex. You just can't cover up any hard things with like, we're just gonna brush this under the rug. You know, we have no problems. It's like, that's just not true. You know what I mean? Everybody's bringing a story, everyone's bringing a history, everyone's bringing something to that relationship.

Um, so let's not be naive to not say like, these are the things I wanna talk about. These are the things I wanna bring to you. Engagement is the great discernment. Everyone thinks engagement. You, you know, you get a ring and that's it. Like, you're married practically. It's like, well, no, actually we always say engagement is all the marital problems without the marital benefits.

That's like our joke because engagement is really hard, right? Like, I mean, you're like, dude, I'm gonna marry this person. Like I really am like, I have a ring. It's like, well then why can't. You know, why can't we get a, a, you know, a house together and get a dog and get a plant and sleep together and all this stuff.

And, and my answer back to it is, is, look, you're about to try to, you're gonna try to plan a wedding together, which is a, a, a feat you're about to try to blend your lives together, right? Like, you're gonna have to figure out what city are we living in? How are we gonna handle? You know, you're maybe going to grad school.

I have a new job, da, da, da, da, you have all these, like, how are we gonna, like, you know, how do we handle money? How do we, you know, it's becoming our money. How do we wanna do that? So all of a sudden you have all these marital, I'm gonna say like problems, which is like marital. They don't have to do problems.

They're almost like circumstances, right? Like you're starting to see that you're gonna have to blend this. And there's no like running and hiding, like just like covering all that up. Right. If you're gonna see a red flag, you're gonna. A lot clearer if you're not sleeping together. Amen. Does that make sense?

I hope your listeners know that I, I, I feel bad. Keep coming back to this, cuz I don't wanna be Debbie downer, you know, but like I'm just really trying to speak into this, this place in relationships where it's like, man, I wanna grow and virtue, man. I wanna look at this relationship differently than my past relationships, man.

Okay. I've been in like six, like relationships that did not go well. Like I want this one to be different. You know? Like if, if you're in a spot like that or if you're in a relationship, I counsel a ton of couples who heard my talk and like together, you know, maybe they came to like my college talk or something and they, they come up to me afterwards and they're like, we need to talk to you, you know?

And I know what they wanna talk about. They're like, we're sleeping together, but we love everything you just said, , you know what I mean? Like what are we gonna do? Like what are we gonna do? We we've been dating a year and we have all these habits and you know, they're just kind of things that we've fallen into, but like they, they loved all 49 minutes of my talk and now they want that, you know what I mean?

So it's like. You gotta kind of see that that's, you know, I'm so proud of those couples. I'm so proud of those people that, you know, come up to me afterwards or email me, or, you know, read the book and go, holy cow. I, I just was, I had, I've never even like been able to articulate this stuff, but I know this is what I wanna build my life on my, my marriage, my relationships.

I wanna build it on something as sturdy as this. And I'm tired of being used. I'm tired of being abused. I'm tired of fearing that my relationship is gonna end up like a relationship. I don't want, you know, it's just so beautiful. Like we said, freedom, man. That's the word? It just keeps coming up. Right? It just keeps coming back.

Yeah, no, it's so good. We, uh, we're running along time. So I just wanna ask about the book. What will someone who reads a get out of it? You know, it was one of those things. It was actually Jason, which is so funny. You guys all know? I, I started giving talks, um, at Benedictine here at the college and I, I never sat out.

I never, you know, was going to be a speaker. I just started, um, hanging out with like groups of guys and groups of girls and then co-ed groups. And we were just kinda like talk a lot. And then finally my kitchen was too small and then the lounge was too small and then the dorm was too small. So I had to move, we went over to an auditorium and next thing I know I'm giving a talk, you know, and it was really beautiful because it was basically, I just kept saying the same things, one on one with people.

And then I, I ran out of time to be able to go one on one. Like I couldn't go to coffee all the time and I had little kids. And so it was really hard to find that time. And so I started giving talks cuz it was easier to say it at, say it once in front of a hundred people than say it to a hundred people.

Does that make sense? So, um, but yeah, I was, I was given a talk, um, somewhere and Jason found out about me and heard me speak. And Jason was like, this is he's like, this is like a part. The heart and a part of like ministry that no one's doing. Cuz I was speaking a lot about social media emotions, um, insecurities identity.

I was speaking about virtue. I was speaking about, you know, what, why do we do what we do and why is it that relationships are so hard? And especially as social media was kind of coming on the scene and texting and things like that. And so to be honest, the book, the, the book just became Jason saying, Sarah, like, you can't be everywhere, but your message has to be everywhere.

And so I said, I was like, Jason, I have, at the time I had three little kids, I was like, it's gonna take me like years to write a book. I mean like legit, like six years, you know what I mean was like, there's no time for that. And he's like, who cares? How long it takes to start writing down everything you want people to know and write it down and just, you know, and then we'll organize it later.

You know, that was kind of his whole thing. And um, and so that's kinda what happened. It took me over two years and I just kept writing down things that I was passionate about things. I was saying, things that I wanted people to know. Um, I really poured my heart into it. A lot of people. I think they think what might be in it.

And they're really surprised when they read it to find what it is actually about what the books is actually about. Um, I have a lot of people that will read it in one sitting they'll just sit down and read it. It takes like five hours. They're like, yeah, I read it in one sitting. I just kept reading. You know what I mean?

It's one of those books that you can kinda, um, get lost in it, cuz it's very personal. It's it's I speak in the book the way I'm speaking right now. I wanted it to be very, um, easy to understand and just my heart kind of poured out and mm-hmm if it helps in any way, then it was worth how hard it was to write

So, um, and it has, it's been really beautiful. It's it's just celebrated its five year, little birthday and I think there's over. I think there's over a hundred thousand copies floating around the world. So that's, I mean, I, I really legit thought a hundred people might read it and I thought I'd be related to 50 of 'em so the fact that the fact that it was more than that is still kind of mind blowing, so that's awesome.

So, yeah. And you talk about everything from virtue, like you said to body image, to social media, to, you know, dealing with, how do you find your posse, your friends, and all, all that good stuff. And so guys, if you want more, I'll tell you at the end of the episode, how to get it, but sir, in closing out the show, I just wanna ask you what final word of encouragement would you give to anyone who's, uh, just struggling right now, especially who's struggling with being single.

Yeah. You know, it's one of those things where I, I really want you to hear me say this and, and just hear it really like deep in your soul. It's just. I'm sorry for the times that you have not been loved the way you deserve to be loved. And I will fight like hell to make sure that you feel the love that you deserve.

And I, I call myself like a professional, like crap clear, like I just love clearing out obstacles and that are in your way from you being able to know your true identity and so that you can be convicted and how loved you are and how, how unique you are and how, how there is no one else like you and God needs you to be you.

And he needs you to be whole and healed. And, and like, again, it's gonna take a little work, but like it's worth it. It is worth the fight. It is worth the struggle of getting over and getting through some things. And to be able to look not bringing your past and, and projecting it on your future, but being able to like clear a new path for your life.

Um, one of the greatest things I, I, I always hear is that my, my talk or my book is like hitting a reset button. And so that would be my, my final, like concluding thought is just believe how loved you are. And don't be afraid to hit the reset button and say like, yeah, it's like a hard reset on your phone.

Sometimes you have to like clear everything, like hard reset. We just need to, like, we need to add in, what's gonna help. And we need to subtract. What's not helping. We need to, to play that game of what needs to go and what needs to come into my life and order for me to really rock this, um, as a person and then in relationships, um, because you only get one life, we only get one, we only get one shot at this, and it's too precious to not, you know, to not really go at this with everything we.

So good, sir. How can people follow you? Yeah, so I'm at emotional virtue.com. That's the website. And there's like, um, a little online store there with like books. My husband is, has some phenomenal books. There's a bunch of fun swag. And then the book is there as well. Um, and then I also have, um, Sarah Swafford, 18, 18 is my wedding anniversary.

Sarah Swafford was taken. Uh, but I loved dwelling over on Instagram. It's a fun place to be. Um, so yeah, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. I'm a little slow to get back, but I do answer my Instagram direct messages. If, if anybody wants their needs. Um, I like speaking into the microphone. I love that. Um, I love that little feature.

So let me know if you guys need anything, but just please know my prayers and, uh, just keep fighting the good fight. It's worth it, Sarah. You're awesome. We love you. And thank you so much for, uh, for being here. I love doing, I love you and I love your ministry and I love your family. You guys are good stuff.

Thank you for all that. You guys do it restored and just, you know, everybody out there, like keep plugging in the things that really feed you. So beautiful. Good. If you want more wisdom from Sarah, you can buy her book in three easy steps. First, just go to restored ministry.com/twenty. Again, that's restored ministry.com.

Ministry is a singular slash 20. The number 22 0. Just scroll down. And when you see her book, click on it and then that'll take you to Sarah's site where you could just click on, add to cart at the bottom of the page and check out the resources mentioned are in the show notes@restorministry.com slash 20.

Thank you guys so much for listening. We do this for you, and if this has been useful, please subscribe and share this podcast with someone that you know who could use it. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole. And become the person that you were born to be.

Restored

Restored creates content that gives teens and young adults the tools and advice they need to cope and heal after the trauma of their parents’ divorce or separation, so they can feel whole again.

https://restoredministry.com/
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