#009: A Retreat for Adult Children of Divorce | Dr. Daniel Meola, PhD
How did you find out that your parents were divorcing? Today’s guest, Dr. Daniel Meola, actually found out before his mom. Then as an 11 year old boy, he called her to break the news.
You’ll hear about the impact the divorce has had on him over the years and what he’s doing to help other adult children of divorce to heal.
To get more info and sign up for a Recovering Origins retreat, go here.
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Contact Dr. Daniel Meola
Website: Life-Giving Wounds
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TRANSCRIPT
Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!
It's probably no surprise to you that resources for children of divorce of separation are practically nonexistent. In fact, I started restore to change that and to build those resources, but we're not fighting this battle alone. You know, our goal is to become the first resource that anyone thinks of or recommends in the United States or even the world, eventually the world, to help teenagers and young adults from divorced or separated families, or really anyone who, who loves or leads them.
But I never planned to do it alone. I wanted Restore to offer a lot of help directly. But also indirectly by connecting those who need the help with those who offered the help. And so today we're introducing you to a Catholic resource for adult children of divorce. It's a retreat to help you in your healing process.
You'll hear the story of the man who started these retreats, who is also a child of divorce. You'll hear how he sadly found out about his parents' separation and later divorce, before his mom even knew. And, and you'll hear the story that he tells about that, but you'll also see how he's taken that pain and he's transformed it to help others.
Keep listening.
Welcome to the Restored podcast, helping you cope. Heal and grow after your parents' divorce or separation so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode nine and quick disclaimer. This episode is especially geared towards Catholic Christians. Dr.
Daniel Mela, who is our guest, is a devout Catholic, and his ministry is specifically focused on the Catholic church. And of course he wants to help everyone, but he specifically focused on Catholics in the Catholic church. But naturally, anyone with an open mind can listen to this show. A little bit about our guests.
Dr. Daniel Mela is an adult child of divorce here into his PhD in Theology of Marriage and Family from the Pontifical, John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family in Washington. It's a long name. Uh, while studying at the institute, he helped create recovering origins, a unique retreat to heal adult children of divorce.
He's been leading those retreats since 2015. In 2018, he founded the Life Giving Wounds Traveling Retreat team to spread the recovering Origins retreat and other, uh, ministry. To adult children divorce around the country. Dan, uh, Dr. Daniel has over 15 years of experience running retreats and giving presentations to various groups.
He, he currently works at the John Paul ii St. John Paul ii National Shrine in Washington DC where he facilitates, uh, evangelization in catechesis events for people of, of all ages. Now, Dr. Daniel and I have become friends from afar. Uh, so you hear me call him Dan, I, I just did a little bit ago. Yeah. Very grateful for him and everything he's doing like restored, he's really one of the few people out there who are trying to help adult children of divorce.
And listen to the end. Make sure you listen to the end, because we actually have a discount for you if you wanna attend one of the retreats that Dr. Daniel runs. So here's our conversation. Dan, thank you so much for coming on the show. Hey, great to be with you, Joey. Love what you're doing at your ministry.
Thanks so much. You as well. I wanna, I wanna talk about your ministry, but let's actually start with your story. If you would take us to the day your parents separated. How old were you? What happened? How did you react? Yeah, so I was 11 years old in sixth grade, and I actually found the letter, my father left for my mother, um, saying his intention to separate, uh, and I was, you know, shocked, Saturn bewildered.
And of course I called my mother, you know, about it right away. And so I had the very sad and fortunate position of actually telling her about the news and, you know, she was at work, couldn't comfort me and, you know, just told me to quickly put it down and that we talked later. Um, but of course, like I sent me in a whirlwind, I had a lot fear and dread and confusion.
And yeah, I mean, it's a day I'll never forget. And it was a day that was very, very difficult in my life. And after that, you know, my mom sat me down and talked about a little bit what was going on. It was still a shock to me. There had been some high conflict leading up to this decision, but it still was a shock.
It still felt like the rug was being pulled underneath of me and you know, I wasn't expecting it. And they said that they were separating, they weren't divorcing right away. They were gonna try to work on the relationship. And you know, that gave me a little bit of hope that maybe they get back together.
But unfortunately they never did. And it set off a pattern of 15 years of separation actually. So I'm very sensitive and attentive to those who are sort of in limbo. Um, and their parents haven't completely divorced, but the separation's dragging on of a big heart for them. and eventually they did divorce 15 years later.
So it's a lot of years of limbo, although it seemed pretty evident it was gonna be a divorce, um, after a few years when they stopped talking to one another. So that's a little bit about what happened. And, um, yeah, I mean, it was defining event in my life. It, it changed so much, uh, in my childhood heart.
Yeah. I, I mean, I can't imagine, I'm so sorry for what happened and I can't imagine finding out from a letter and then forming your mom about it, like that must have been traumatic. Oh yeah. I mean, it always is, right? Like, I've never talked to adult child divorce, separation. That moment wasn't traumatic, and you sort of, mm-hmm replayed in your mind a lot about how you handled it.
There be a lot of false guilt and shame about how you handled it. And, you know, that's part of my story too. Like, should I have even called my mom? Should I have told about, you know, told her about it and. It was weird. I felt like complicit in the, the separation itself, because I told her it was like, it was so bizarre, uh, to be the bear of that news.
Uh, rather than receiving it, I just, I felt so dirty and ashamed and I don't know, somehow like I was doing it to my mom and then to hear my mom's first reaction before she could process anything, that was, that was brutal. That was very brutal. I mean, I remember crying myself to sleep and actually many nights afterwards, you know, I had definitely had a difficulty in sleeping after that.
Yeah. Cause my home was split up. Yeah. Yeah. No. And 15 years of separation. I'm glad you mentioned that. That's one thing that I don't think we talk about enough, but at ReSTOR we're, we specifically wanna talk about the fact that there's people who come from divorced families and there's people who come from separated families and they're different.
And, and so I'm, I'm glad that you're paying attention to that and you obviously have experienced that. You have a lot of, uh, authority to speak on that. Thanks. Yeah. I mean they're very similar and a lot of families go in and out of them, um, as well. Cause definitely when the separation happened, a lot of it was basically like living in a divorced home, except for like the first year or two they were trying to work on things with counseling and that.
But you know, going between two homes, feeling like your home was separated, you lost a family meal, there were no family vacations. Dad and mom were arguing often through you as a proxy. So it was, you know, very much like, um, you know, when I became an adult child divorce. So, you know, I'm very sensitive to those who families, uh, are going through separation.
And it is unique too, because you are a little bit in limbo. There's, you like to think there's a little bit more hope . Mm-hmm. . Cause it's not so definitive. But every situation's different. Like I said, after two or three years, once they stopped talking to each other, I knew it was, you know, I knew it was bad, uh, it was over, but you always held out hope.
And then. Uh, the crazy thing is the year that they divorced is the year I got married, . So that was its own difficulty because, you know, as you know, it's hard for us to enter into a relationship, let alone marriage, you know, hoping it's gonna last because you've all, you've known all your life with the most important relationship that forms you developmentally is brokenness.
So, you know, you question everything related to love and to have that happen, sort of the year I got married was just man, oh man, talk about struggles with trust. And I had done a lot of healing by that point. You know, I was 26 at that point. I done a lot, a lot of healing with God and, and others, but, uh, it still was, still was really hard and it just was such a sign of contradiction to everything I wanted to do in my own marriage.
So it was, um, interesting times to say the least. You bring up a great point. I can't imagine, you know, going through all of that along with getting married and the fear and the anxiety and all that, that came along with it. But you bring up a great point that when we go into different chapters of life or certain events happen, it can bring a lot of that brokenness right back to the surface.
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Without a doubt. I mean, I often say that divorce is a lifelong grief that rears its head at every holiday milestone, you know, every pickup and drop off at the different home. Like, you know, just this last holiday, you know, I'm going between two homes in my hometown remembering that. So yeah.
Rears its head at all these major milestones and you've gotta confront that and heal again from that. And, um, mm-hmm. , I, I think that's important thing to, to recognize that. It's a lifelong grief, and that's okay though. That doesn't have to be depressing because you learn how to deal with it better and better so it doesn't wreck you like it maybe once did early on.
Or if you're on heeled or you sort of push the wound aside, you can still draw joy and hope and faith and love from those moments. You just have to be intentional about it, which, you know, one of the big differences now in my life is how I handle those moments. So, and not that it's any better than other trauma.
Trauma is always tragic and bad, but you're right, it continues on, it's drawn out. Like you said, you had mentioned that it was such a pivotal point in your life. It really a defining moment when your parents separated and I'm sure everything that led up to it and everything that followed too was a part of that.
But how did you see, um, Breakup of your parents affect you in the years that followed? Oh, man. , like, it affected so much of my life. Like, I don't think there was a time when I wasn't thinking about it. I mean, certainly there were, you're unconscious about it, but like, I feel like I dabbled in like every unhealthy coping method, possible.
Sure. Except for drugs. And, you know, I never touched drugs for, for whatever reason. I just knew that they were dangerous. But I feel like, yeah, I feel like I dabbled in every unhealthy coping mechanism, uh, like unhealthy amounts of anger. Certainly. Um, it's interesting, I dabbled in them. I, I didn't like stay in patterns of, you know, like struggles with like, promiscuity or drugs, like some people.
Yeah. It's interesting. I just sort of dabbled just like, okay, what what's this gonna give me? What's that gonna give me? And, um, you know, ob obviously like all those unhealth, the coping mechanisms, and it, it goes beyond just like, Promiscuity and like anger are those, those two are tend to be like at the forefront or sadness, but I mean it like manifests itself in other ways in my life, like a certain workaholism, like trying to earn the love of my parents, you know, by being successful in school, by being a role follower, I was mostly a role follower actually.
Um, even though I dabbled in, you know, what a lot of people would call risky behaviors at. But, um, you know, being a people pleaser, I definitely struggled with that, uh, to cope, you know, instead of sharing my true self, just, you know, saying what other people wanted to say just in the hopes that they would stay around me, right?
Cuz I wanted whatever stability I could get. Certainly staying in relationships too long, I mean, it just, it runs the gamut. Uh, also, you know, what's interesting is in the media aftermath, and I think this is a grace, you know, I'm a Christian, I'm a Catholic, and a big part of my story is the faith and the media aftermath.
Uh, luckily one of the gifts that my mom gave me afterwards is strong, strong Catholic faith that turned to. Initially I did that initially. It's interesting, right after the separation I started praying a ton, like actually like three or four rosaries cuz I was Catholic, you know, praying to Jesus through Mary.
It was, you know, built into my consciousness and um, that's just really interesting that would like, help me get the sleep at night. And I did that for two years and then I think I became disillusioned because, you know, I was treating it like a little bit like magic. Like I was hoping if I just did this enough, if I just prayed enough.
God would bring my parents back together. You know, not really realizing that, you know, God respects their freedom so much that people can choose against, uh, what is good, you know? And, um, so I prayed a ton. Like I'm talking like, I became sort of obsessed with it, like 3, 4, 5 rosaries a day for two years and nothing happened and I sort of became disillusioned.
And, uh, I went far away from God for a while and for the first three years of, of, um, high school and, you know, part of my story to my shame, I think my low point was just feeling a certain anger and hatred towards God, which I didn't really reveal to anybody outwardly, cuz I know it break my mom's heart and just being far from him.
And so that was all the unhealthy stuff. Now, what really saved my life, I think, and was a big turning point, was rediscovering that faith, uh, deeper level. About junior year in high school, uh, going on a retreat, I went on a retreat that really changed my life and brought me back to, to Christ and an authentic understanding of Christ and the way he, he respects our freedom, but the all the different ways that he's there in my life, even if my parents never get back together.
Helped me to rediscover that and just rediscover that. You know, I was really pushing away the one thing that could heal me, uh, which was, God, you know, I, I really believe that the deepest cause of suffering and the aftermath of our parents' divorce, separation is the absence of God. But, you know, he never fully left me, which was great.
Even when I was pushing him away as one priest told me, at least I had my hand on his chest. . I always liked that image, even when we're pushing away, like we have our hands on his chest and his, his heart is beating for love for us. But I mean, there's so much to that goes into my healing. Like it's, it's not just one retreat like that just started my healing back and, and helped me to know that I am actually loved.
Okay. And my parents to the best of ability afterwards did try to love me. It wasn't like some cases where one of the parents just completely abandoned or both of them checked out. They were trying to love, but I still had a loss. And, uh, I still need to recover that deeper love of God. That was, that was crucial to my healing.
Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk more about that. So obviously your relationship with God was just so instrumental, so key, really the source of, of so much of your healing. And um, of course, you know, there's human level healing that I'm sure you went through, uh, learning, you know, different coping mechanisms.
But let's focus on the relationship with God. Cuz I think this is important and some people listening, you know, you, you may not believe in God, and that's okay if that's where you're at. But I just challenge you to hear Dan out, hear his story and how much this has affected him. And, uh, hopefully it'll bring you some help and maybe even, uh, challenge you to question why, you know, maybe you've gone away from God.
And, and so Dan, in talking about this, I'm just curious how is, how did your perception of God change over the years? Cause it sounds like in the beginning you saw God as someone of a divine butler like, Hey God, bring me this, bring me this, get my parents back together. And then, you know, Then I'll be good.
How did that change over the years? Yeah. , Uh, yeah, My image of God, and, and this is something too one, I like explain to listeners, especially those who are far from the faith, that so often we push God away. And this was so true in my life because we project certain image on God, like of our parents' relationship.
And when that relationship is messed up, we can project those same qualities on God. Um, and what I mean by that is, you know, initially, yeah, initially I approached God sort of as, um, what's interesting you said Butler, but just something like, okay, I'll believe in you if you do this. You know, like I made a deal, like, I'll believe in you if you do this.
And, and also thinking like I could somehow manipulate God's will by like praying enough. Like I was, you know, like I said, I was praying a ton, um, which was, which was interesting. I don't even know where it came from. I mean, some of it could be my mom's faith, but it was just interesting to me. And I, I said it's also a grace cuz even though it was a flawed view of God, I think there was something there of like, Mary comforting me, like I said, like she did help me get to sleep.
And again, when I say Mary, I know Protestants, or like, well, why are you focused on Mary? Well, every time I say that, I know very much. It's like Mary leading me to Christ and Christ doing, you know, intercessory work through her. But, um mm-hmm. , but I mean like, helped me to sleep. It's just interesting so it wasn't like all bad.
But yeah, I, I treated God as a, um, you know, like a deal. Then when the deal fell apart, you know, I became disillusioned very far from God. Again, very secret about this. It was, it was, a lot of it was interior, but, you know, I just stopped praying. I went to mass appease my mom. But, you know, I, I found it boring and all these things and, um, I think the biggest thing that changed was instead of seeing God as a, you know, like.
A secular review of Santa dispensing gifts if you do X enough. I really saw God as somebody who suffered with us. I think that was the big thing that changed during the retreat. Um, I mean this is a whole nother podcast about this, but to see that his answered and love for me was to suffer with me, really changed a key thing that a priest helped me to see.
I couldn't articulate it as well as this. Now, when I was in high school, I couldn't articulate it. But that, um, you know, God didn't come to take away all the suffering in our life, but to fill all that suffering with his presence, that was the answer. And I've been looking for God just to take this suffering away.
I thought that's what God does. And sometimes he does that, you know, sometimes he answers. But the far deeper miracle, because we're all gonna die one day, the fall far deeper miracle is to recognize his presence in the suffering and to allow him to. With his joy, his love, his hope, and that was the change of image of a God who suffers personally with us.
And I as somebody outside of me and just giving me good gifts and just taking away suffering again. I thought that's all he did right? So to see that there's something much deeper going on. And you know, part of my story being Catholic too is rediscovering Catholicism and the amazing gift of the Eucharist, uh, which we believe there.
Christ suffers with us in a unique way. His presence suffers with us a unique way. Uh, his, his passion, his death across, but also the resurrection and then simultaneous with that. Renewed sense of a God who suffers with us and a God is, you know, really, really with us, not just far. Also, you know, a God who loves us, A God who brings us joy.
And I was also drawn to the joy of, um, the people on the retreat team. They had a joy that I was lacking. And so just rediscovering that joy in God that, I mean, there's so much that can be said about. But it's just something you have to dive in and start to experience yourself as you start to live a Christian life.
Cuz I've been brought so many joys I wouldn't have been if I wasn't living a Christian life. And uh, yeah, just discovering that God has God of joy and receiving that joy by following him. Yeah. And, and to stop projecting to like my views of, you know, my parents onto God, um, or run away from God. And the other side of it is run away from God because of the hypocrisy of my parents' religion that was there too.
You know, I don't wanna get too much into it, but there was a certain hypocrisy, like what I found was interesting, I'll just state this and may Doche on a divorce and separation shared this with me too is one of the things that disillusioned me about faith that I was just so angry about for so long in high school was, how was it two people who went to mass every Sunday could divorce?
I mean if mass was so important. Why or how could it, how could they do, how could they go to mass on Sunday and be separating on Tuesday? Right. Yeah. I just, I just, I knew these things were incompatible and I was so angry about that. And initially that was a question, but then it became full blown anger, you know, and I just, that, that destroyed me.
But what I had to learn was like, that was hypocrisy. They weren't allowing that to fully enter into their life. Now, I mean, I think there's some genuine faith that was there. I don't mean to some of my parents short. My parents are wonderful, loving people who there is something of the faith they took serious, but there was some hypocrisy there.
And I had to realize that they weren't really living out the mass on all the other days of the week. And that's the challenge for all of us, right? We're all sinners. So I'm also aware that when discussing sins of others that, you know, needs to begin with my own life, recognize and send my own. But we have to live that out.
We can't just leave God for Sundays. Right. And I had to realize that, um, that's sort of what was going on. And uh, but for a time I was really angry because of that. And I would just say to the listeners who feel far away from God, is it because you associate God was some hypocrisy parent? Rather than guide it in who he is and himself and those who actually follow him.
And to look to the models of people that actually follow him, uh, sort of over God. Cause I think we can run away from God for those two reasons, but there's many more. But that, that was the case in my life. Yeah. Those are all excellent points. And like you said, it's a huge topic that deserves its own show or series of shows.
And guys will be bringing you shows on this topic, especially a topic of, you know, if God is all powerful, how does, why does he allow us to suffer? So we're gonna talk about that more in future episodes. But one of the things, uh, that you said, my, my takeaway from that and like you just challenged everyone listening, is maybe the.
Person that you think God is isn't the one who he actually is. And so kind of challenging that idea and that, that's what I challenge everyone listening to do as well, just like Dan, uh, just said, is think, think through that, reflect on that. And uh, you may be surprised what you find. Yeah. And guys is one of surprises too.
Like I feel like he's constantly surprising me with who he is. So to not box him into any one concept, but to really encounter him or give him a chance to encounter you. Yeah, that's beautiful. Dr. Uh, Peter Creep from Boston College. He's a fluer at Boston College. For anyone who, who doesn't know who he is, he writes a lot of books and just phenomenal man, really, really intelligent.
Uh, he talks about how, uh, like God, You know, in a way, in an using an analogy like a good friend who Dan, like you said, he sits with us in the midst of our suffering. He doesn't just try to, you know, get us out of it. And Dr. Creeped, I think he uses the example of your car breaking down. You know, like on a country road in the middle winter, a friend will call a tow truck for you, but a really true, authentic friend is gonna be there with you sitting in the car waiting for the tow truck to come.
And he, uh, he uses that analogy to kinda show, um, yeah, God's just not that divine butler. The Santa, like he said, who's just gonna give us everything we want in every moment. But he is really gonna be with us through that all. And, uh, I I think that's beautiful. And if you, if you look for that, uh, I do think you'll find it.
I have in. Yeah. Amen. I would not be the man I am today and have the healing I have today without God, like, full stop. That's beautiful. Going back to different coping mechanisms that you use, you mentioned some of the unhealthy things that you had done, uh, to cope. How about some healthy coping mechanisms?
What did you kind of figure out over the year on a spiritual level, but also on a human level? Uh, what did you do to help you cope in healthy ways? Yeah. Um, I think for me, again, it began with the spiritual, then like went into the human level, . Um, sure. That was just my path. I know there's different paths, you know, but again, it was first, okay, so first getting the relationship with God, right?
And giving him a priority in my life. So turning to him when I'm in my lowest in prayer, that was huge. But, uh, o obviously too, like having good Holy Catholic friends at the retreat gave to me, turning to them because there's a, there's a big world of difference talking about a problem with somebody who.
Just while one doesn't care, just wants to complain about it versus somebody who wants to be there with you, uh, grieve the pain, but also strengthen you in the faith through it. I mean, there's a big world of difference there. And those two types of friendships, cuz again, I had some, some conversation with friends prior to being a good Christian community about it, but it was just complaining.
It was toxic. It was a real toxic discussion about our wounds. Um, it was just complaining, complaining, complaining, and, and you sort of just get stuck in the wound. Whereas the conversation changed with my friends who were, uh, Christians and Catholics. Like there was, there was hope, there was something that could be done about the situation.
Yeah. All the suffering wouldn't go away, but it was much more constructive. Um, and all the different like, suggestions that they gave, you know, gave me or we sort of worked out and discovered on our own. So, you know, definitely find that in person. Uh, Catholic Christian community made a big difference. I mean, and then from that, I think they challenged me in how to like rethink and live love obviously.
Again, I believe the Catholic church gives a beautiful vision of love that was key to, to have a blueprint for love. I was always searching for a blueprint for love cause I didn't have that for my parents. So the Catholic faith sort of gave that to me, but then it was worked out in those holy friendships, uh, cuz one thing to have that blueprint, but another thing to actually try to, uh, live that, which, you know, again, friends did.
So, you know, it was a little bit of the, the human side of things like changing my approach to dating. Changing my approach to chasity, changing my approach to, uh, marriage changing my approach of what I'm looking for and a person to marry all changed. So those are all human things that changed. Yeah, I mean, there's so much here.
I . I mean, you talk about good coping. Yeah. Again, so much of my story, spiritual, I mean too for like, for me coping was like also the sacraments. And each sacrament has a story that helped me to heal, whether it be the Eucharist or marriage. I mean, my marriage was very healing both on a human spiritual level, but that happened many years later.
But I mean also, you know, on a human level, coping, like I went to a spiritual director. I know you're big on that in your ministry. I went to a counselor that helps. I did avail myself of all these tools, uh, to help heal. But the three biggest things I would say were, you know, my Catholic faith, then person, community with good.
Mm-hmm. good, you know, Christian friends and the sacraments. Those would be the three things that have helped me heal most. That makes so much sense. There was, there was, there was a bunch of things that, again, I believe that God led me to on a human and spiritual level through it. And it was gradual. It was gradual.
Like the retreat started it, the counseling and therapy came during college. Um, the good friends was throughout it all was high school, end of high school, college, after college, still to this day. Right. In my married life. And speaking about it, I mean, that's another thing like, oh, on the human level, You know, I, It was frustrating on one level.
You could talk about, in certain terms with people about complaining about your parents, but another level, there just was such a silence around this issue, especially experienced that in my family. Yeah. And this big Italian family who just don't talk about these deep problems. I think some of it's cultural, but some of it's cultural to America that, you know what I call now putting fancy words to it, was there was a wound of silence and a lot of sectors in my life.
So, you know, And some of it was self-imposed. I didn't want anybody to see that I was broken. Right. But some of it was imposed by others that you just don't talk about this. And um, you know, so on a human level, I need to break the silence, but again, in a healthy way where I didn't get stuck in the past but could confront the past in, in a healthy way.
Yeah, that's a great point that you make about the silence. Cuz I think that's so common in so many of our lives. We just don't talk about these things. And so yeah, I really applaud you for having, uh, the courage to change that. And, uh, I, I think like, like you said, it, it's so helpful, it's so healing to just bring this stuff out into the light.
As opposed to just struggling interiorly and, and like, you know, so many children, no divorce do that. We just carry this, all this baggage around with us for years without saying anything often to, to people. And then, uh, you know, in different ways it comes out. Right, Right. And uh, that's part of the reason we feel so alone.
Hmm. Because it's such a deep part of our life and our story. So even though, you know, there's a million do loan divorce every year and countless others who come from separate homes, we feel so alone in our problems cuz we never really talk about mm-hmm , or at least not a constructive way. Again, there's a lot of social media dumps, but that's not a constructive, meaningful.
Discussion of, of the problems. Yeah. Then there is a difference, and I'm glad you're putting that out, shifting to kind of how your life is different now. Uh, though we're, we're always a work in progress. I acknowledge that. A, after going through the healing process, the steps that you've taken, how is your life different now after you've healed and grown?
Yeah, I mean, so many different things. Like, first of all, I don't fear suffering the same way I did early in life. Um, I embrace it when it comes related to this and I take it to the Lord and I try to draw greater faith, hope and love out of it. Uh, faith. I try to allow it to deepen my relationship with God.
And you know who I think God is, hope, you know, I, I respond to it like, Okay, things are gonna be okay. We're gonna find something to do with this that involves greater love. And that's the other thing too. Like I look for the way that these struggles are teaching me to love. I look for the mission that, you know, God might be giving me in these wounds.
And I try to love more deeply. So for me, healing is not, um, the absence of pain, but rather how I respond to that pain. And I respond completely different. I don't get stuck in it. I don't dwell in it as much as I did before. There's not that despair. There's not that frustration. There's not that anger. And also in terms of love, you know, for relationships, you know, I feel very confident in who I am now.
You know? And I feel confident in my love. Uh, you know, there's still areas. My marriage had gone on nine years of marriage here with my awesome beloved wife, Bethany. But feeling very confident in our love, confident in our marriage, and just so many joys and graces from our marriage, you know, And being able to receive that, of also matured in love, receiving love.
I think that's a big thing. One of the side problems of not talking about the effects of our parents' divorce separation on us is in the silence that surrounds us, is what it teaches kids and adults to do is like, okay, you gotta figure it out on your own in a very deep, central way. You've gotta do everything on your own.
Uh, the problem with that is when it comes to love, you can't do it on your own. That's called narcissism. . If you just love on yourself, rather you gotta receive love. And so, like, initially that was very hard for me was to receive love actually. It was easier for me to give but not receive. And actually the greatest gift I can do for my wife is receive her love, cuz that brings her delight.
So I've really matured in that giving and receiving of love. And it's because I, I now have a firm stand, a place to stand upon for love, which is Christ. Um, because I've received love from Christ. So all of those, and I could go on, there are many, many other ways that. I've experienced healing and how my life is different now, but those would be the core of it.
I, I love that you've found so much meaning in the midst of your suffering and you've taken that suffering and you've started a ministry and you've been doing this for years, and we're gonna talk about that in a second. Um, but I really think that's so beautiful because what I've seen so many people who are doing really good work in the world, oftentimes it comes from a really dark place, a place of suffering that they've chosen to transform into something really good and beautiful.
And so I, I see that you've done that. So, um, thank you for, for doing that. It's such a great example, a beautiful example for, for all of us especially, uh, who, who are suffering due to, you know, a broken. Uh, as you know, usually the biggest effect that the divorce has on, on us is our future relationships that impacts our future relationships in negative ways.
And so you touched on, uh, your marriage. You talked a little bit about how it affected, you know, your dating life, but would you draw that out a little bit more? How, how have you seen the effect of your parents' divorce affect your dating relationships and now your own marriage? Oh yeah. I mean, uh, you, you mentioned I do ministry.
This is like a huge topic we talk a lot about. Uh, cuz I also do a lot of ministry with young adults who are dating and getting married. But, but yeah, but going back to my own life, I won't talk in general about the struggles I see. But I mean, going back to my own life, man, , uh, there's so many mistakes I made in love and dating and I just wanna tell all our viewers out there who are struggling with dating.
And I think it's related to parents' divorce, separation, that God can write straight with crooked lines. I am a living example that I've made a lot of mistakes in dating, e everything from, you know, cynicism. I think that was my first response was, you know, the forgo dating actually, um, exclusive dating because, you know, I'm like, love's not gonna last
Like, this is, this is a joke. Get, get out of this relationship. What I can, but I don't know about exclusive dating, you know, to, uh, romanticism. You know, I, I definitely then held up relationships as like, my God, like this is the answer to all my suffering folks. Um, which also disillusioned me and led back to Cism.
So I think cynicism and romanticism sort of are related to one another. Uh, even though I'll talk in a minute about marriage being healing, it, it, uh, I can't solve all our problems alone, again, apart from God. But I had to learn that the hard way cuz I did hold up relationships on a pedestal. Like, if I just find the right spouse, all my problems are gonna be taken care of, right?
Yeah. Um, so I fell into that and then what happened was I was in a few bad relationships and because I was a people pleaser and because I was a romantic, what happened was I'd ignore all the bad warning signs that this relationship is not good because I was grasping to like any good thing because I just so desperately want stability.
I so desperately want whatever little affirmation. You know, I just clung to a relationship that I shouldn't have for a long time that, that needed to, I needed to let go. But again, as a people pleaser, I'm like, ah, I don't wanna do that, and I need whatever stability I could get, again, because the loss, stability in my parents' relationship.
So I just clung to some bad relationships. So I made that mistake, which is directly related to the aftermath of my parents' divorce, wanting stability, wanting affirmation, and a, a romanticism of love as being the answer to all my problems. Um, human love that is, and again, it's a huge part of our healing.
But if that is what you put all your eggs in the basket for healing, you're gonna be let down. Because even in great relationships, no person, no human person can fill every need that we have in our heart. Again, I gotta keep coming back to it cuz it's been true in my life. There's a part of our hearts that only God can provide for.
And I found that through making mistakes and dating and what ended up happening was the most fulfilling relationship was when I brought God to the four of it. So that was, you know, one thing I needed to do. But even then, I did have relationships where, you know, God was at the four of it, but I really wasn't living it.
So the other thing is like , you know, not just bring God to the four of it, but actually make a commitment to living it every day in the relationship. I had to learn that too. Cause I made that mistake, right? Oh, if I just dated a Catholic or Christian, I'll be okay. Right? Um, yeah. , you know, , um, no, you gotta be committed to these, You, you gotta look for women who are committed to your ideals or, or you know, in my case, with women listeners, to men who are committed to living it, not just, um, Not just name only, right?
So you need to see people who are living it day in and day out by their virtue. So I had to learn that. I had to learn that that's what I needed to look for. And the other thing is like, is this person somebody who reciprocates love? Cuz as a people pleaser, which again, I was in the aftermath of my parents' divorce because I just so badly wanted affirmation that I would just give into what other people wanted as a people pleaser.
You know, love really wasn't reciprocated, you know, like it, it was just me trying to please the other, but not receiving love from another. Even if they wanted give it. But even if they didn give it, I didn't believe in that love because it was a mask. I thought they were loving. So I was really bad at receiving love.
And couple of that, I was in a bunch of relationships where it was the love wasn't reciprocated, you know, like they were just taking from me. and I just so desperately wanted to work out that, you know, I let them get away with murder, so to speak. Um, not murder, but mm-hmm. , you know what I mean? Like, just take, take taking, um, that was the bad cycle we got in.
So really learning that the most beautiful and fulfilling relationship is one that's reciprocal and one where I allowed the other person and I allowed the other to enter in my heart to receive. And that was what was really different with Beth and my wife was, it was very reciprocal and I actually really practiced receiving, um, that was sort of like my last leg of like healing.
I needed dating, I got rid of the cynicism and romanticism maybe after high school. But that, um, looking for somebody who reciprocated that came much, much later. And that flowed from a view of marriage that the church gave me, which was the total self gift we're called to totally give ourselves, which also means receiving the other.
So anyways, I know that's a lot. There's so much on this topic, but that's a real quick. Nutshell about my dating and, and love. Yeah, no, I'd love to have you back another time to dive more into that and some of the current issues that you're seeing, uh, from, you know, your ministry that young adults are dealing with.
Ju just a few points I think you've made that were really, really great, The cynicism and the romanticism. I've often seen that, I've seen children of divorce and I've been one of them either run towards marriage as like the solution to their problems, like you really Well said. Um, or just run away from it because love doesn't last.
And it's such an interesting dynamic to me, and we'll have to talk about that more later. But one really, really important thing that, uh, I wanna talk about a little bit is if you have that mindset that your spouse is gonna fix and heal you, one of the really dangers to that is that when they don't, when you get married and they don't, you may start to think that you married the wrong person, that this isn't right, that you should leave them.
And that's just so, so tragic. So, uh, Yeah, talk about that a little bit if you would. I know, again, it's a big topic, but it's, it's really dangerous, isn't it? No. Let's, let's jump into this cuz this is important. Yeah, no, it's absolutely very important. Um, like you said, like if you put up your, your wife or husband on a pedestal and they let you down, not only will you start thinking like, Oh, maybe I married the wrong person.
But again, you can fall into cism, you can fall into that disillusionment like, Oh, you know, like, I'm just so bad at love. You know, or, or like, love is just not possible, et cetera, rather than seeing a few things. Well, one, it's a normal part of any relationship, to have problems, to have conflict. It's just how do you respond to that?
Do you allow that to grow? That's one just to have a real view or, you know, again, one of the healing things that the Catholic church gave me was a non-romantic view marriage that, you know, marriage like all the sacraments modeled after the cross. There's moments of sorrow, but there's moments of joy that's, that's in the vows.
You know, I promise to love you in good times and bad. You're like, we know that, right? That like in the vows going into that, there's gonna be good times, there's gonna be bad, but I'm gonna love you through it all. Uh, but yet we forget. Right? But, but luckily, you know, I was blessed to get that, that view from the church, that that non-romantic view that yes, is profound joy, but there's gonna be profound sorrow that you have to work through.
So that's one. But going back to the dangers, but also, I, I wanna be nuanced here. The best way to like approach sacrament marriage is to know it is very healing. But when we say that it's not because it's all our spouse all alone. Mm-hmm. , it's healing in so far as it's our spouse, but also our spouse leading us to God.
Because again, there are things that only God can fulfill. Bethany, my wife, there's only things that God can fulfill me. And we're healing and we're fulfilling the other, only insofar as we are also leading them to God. Otherwise, you know, we're treating ourselves like an idol. So it's like, yes, it's healing, but it's healing only insofar as you, you both recognize there's something greater than you at stake in, in this relationship that you need to lead the other person to.
So, and this gets really practical really quickly, but it's like when we have an argument, right? If I approach the relationship as, Okay, this is the person who's gonna fulfill my every need, I'm gonna be devastated by that argument. But on the flip side, if I see like, okay, she's gonna meet my needs more than any other person, but not every single one, there's something that only God can do.
And um, and you know, we need friends, et cetera. Then I approached that argument, not devastated, that we disagree. Like, Oh, okay, you know, it's fine that she doesn't meet every single one of my needs, but let's work through this and we're gonna be okay. Cuz our love is deeper than just, um, our human wills alone.
So it gets really practical and expectations when you approach the healing and fulfillment in marriage is understood as you participating with God. So it's, it's not just your wife, but their participation in God that fulfills and it's, it's God, it's God primarily. So it just releases this huge burden, I think when you, um, go with that mindset versus, again, the danger, like you said, if, if this is the person who's supposed to take care of all my problems, then they don't, then yeah.
I mean, why am I in this marriage? You know? Yeah. Start thinking of all these issues. So, yeah. So we have to have a nuance, right? So the nuance is yes, marriage, parenting is very healing, but it's not everything. Like there has to be a more to our healing. It has to be God. And by the way, when I say God, uh, that's also every other gift he wants to give us too, like friends, family.
So I do believe a spouse is called to meet our needs more than any other person in the world. That is part of the calling, but it's not every need with healing. And, and that's important. And actually the primary person is God, but God working through my spouse to meet my needs, um, I think that's important to recognize.
That's what I mean when I say healing through the marriage, um, because I do. That it's one of the primary ways that God can heal us. Can you know some people, maybe they're never blessed with a marriage and God can still heal you. Like, I mean, God is the primary healer, right? But for a lot of us, and I'm sure you've experienced this too, Joey, that like in a faithful, loving, fruitful marriage, that is extremely healing.
It's just we have to understand that's a gift from God and not mistake it just for our wife, right? The, or just our husband, because we're gonna let him. So we have to have that nuance. Right? Absolutely. And I'm glad, I'm glad you went into that. And like I said, we're gonna have you back, Let's do another show on just love and marriage and all the issues that come along with that.
But you, you hit on so many good points, and I really believe that, uh, one of the, maybe underneath every divorce is this kind of unconscious expectation that our spouse is gonna make us perfectly happy. I, I know there's other reasons and so I'm not, I'm not saying that's the only one, but I think underneath so many divorces, and I would argue the majority, if not all, is that belief.
And then, you know, we get disappointed and we start to do other things that aren't healthy. And it just leads to the breakdown of the marriage. And like I said, there's more to it than just that. But I, I really believe that that's at the root of so many. Yeah, I mean, I, I do think that in a secular society that, you know, has so many idols that human love and relationships are held up as like, The end all, be all answer to our problems.
So I think you're onto something, uh, yeah. To reflect further on. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And we will, we'll talk about this more in the future. Uh, Dan, tell me a little bit about your ministry. So your ministry is called Life Giving Wounds, which great name. Talk a little bit about why did you start it, um, and what do you do to help, uh, adult children of divorce?
Yeah, thanks. So, life giving wounds, um, ministry, which it's a paradox, right? Cuz we don't usually think of our wounds as life giving . And that's intentional because what our ministry hopes to do is that, to draw life from those wounds, from that very thing you might wanna run away from might be your salvation, right?
Why did I start this ministry? Well, really God called me to it more or less dragged me and do it because, uh, I mean I didn't go looking for this. Uh, what was interesting, what I did go looking for is in aftermath, my parents, uh, divorce or separation, then later divorce. I always had that question like, What makes love, love, and last and last in a happy way, right?
Cause you know, I knew love wasn't just staying together, but staying together and happiness, joy, it was always that question. It, it, it sent me on this lifelong search and I'm still have a lot of answers, but I'm still discovering new aspects of the mystery of love. But, um, it led one thing after another, led me to what was called the John PTO Institute for Studies of Marriage and Family.
So fascinating marriage and family. First, I started off, I got a psych degree at Catholic University of America. So I looked at marriage and family from the psychological viewpoint and I'm like, There's, there's gotta be something more. So then I went on to get a theology degree at the John p Altoon Institute for Studies of Marriage and Family.
And, uh, but it was this question of marriage and family, just my own personal search. What, what makes love, love? And it was there just looking at love from every angle, but especially with the light of faith that just drew me to understand marriage in a deeper way and to try to live it in my life. But, so I wanted to strengthen marriage and family.
I had that deep calling, which came again through the wound. I had this clear mission through the wound to strengthen marriage and family, but also live a strong marriage and family. Still to this day, the greatest accomplishment I wanna be remembered for is not life giving wounds, but having an awesome marriage.
And that's still this day. That's, that's my number one goal. Beautiful. And um, so I wanted to do that. And then just, it happened to be, so I wasn't really looking to do specific ministry for adult divorce, so that was part of my story. So I was always attentive to the needs of d divorce and helping em in various ministries like men's ministry, young adult ministry.
But when I was at the institute, Well, I got asked to get a PhD, which I thought was crazy. Uh, because I come from blue collar family, nobody's got a PhD in my me family. So I was like, Really? You want me to like pursue this? Okay, God, I'll, I'll give it a try. Right. Um, but you know, you can probably even tell just talking, I have a very blue collar, you know, background.
I've never lost that route. So I'm like, Wow, you want me to try to get a PhD? So I went to get a PhD and as I was there the institute was reflecting on the need for pastoral ministry for adult children, divorce and separation. And I just happened to be there, had this background getting PhD, got asked to be a part of this.
Um, trying to develop pastoral ministry for Donald Trump divorce cuz there's nothing in the church at the pastoral level in diocese and parishes. And they wanted to do something about it. I'm like, heck yeah, I wanna do that too. But I wasn't looking for it. It just kind of came to me when I was at the institute, got involved in it.
Next thing I know, I'm running the first retreat. In 2015, and then things just sort of took off from there. I mean, again, I wasn't looking for it, but I knew the needs of adult children divorce and then God put this in my path at the right time, and it was just so clear that this, this was a calling, this was a need.
And then started doing these retreats. Then I, I gave a talk at a National Association of Catholic Family Life ministers who said, you know, other diocese need this too. And then I founded life giving wounds to spread these retreats, but also support groups. We also do consultations for leaders to help them be more attuned in how they can accompany, um, adults and divorce separation in their ministries.
Uh, we try to offer some online resources, although, you know, you're doing more so I try to point 'em to you and other people. I have a curated list of resources on our website, life giving wounds.org and, um, it came outta my wound to want to help others because there was nothing at the pastoral level.
But it was also God finding me at the right time in the right place. So I'm, I'm very aware of the providence of it, and I'm also just aware of the humility needed because not only was this a joint project from the beginning with a lot of people from the institute, but also I see my role as creating pastoral ministry and diocese and parishes to create teams, teams of people who are on fire for Christ, who want to help heal these souls that are really suffering and neglected and are underserved.
And I just wanna do something about it. So, Yeah, it's just, it's just amazing. It's still amazing to me that I'm here doing this podcast with you, and this ministry has grown. I, I still, I marvel, I marvel at God's work, so, Yeah. No, I love it. And, uh, one question. If, you know, years down the road, you look back and you look at your ministry, uh, what would make it a big success?
Like what, what's, what I'm getting at here is what's the ultimate goal? Like what, what do you, what's the end goal of everything that you're doing? And, and you touched on that a little bit, but I wanna draw it out. Well, obviously the end goal is to, Well, okay, so I called life giving wounds because of, I love this verse and scripture by his wounds, you are healed from first letter of Peter.
I mean, it's to allow Christ wounds to heal others who have the same, He, you know, same cross. And so for that matter, it's already a success. And I feel like I'm playing with house money, um, now. But, uh, it, you know, it would be for me that the church. is more attuned to the suffering and gets better at accompanying and healing children from these situations.
Cause I don't think we're doing a great job. So it's, it's really the end goal is not even to have a standalone ministry, although I want that, but you know, everybody from youth ministers to marriage prep, to social justice types, to everybody to be more attuned and to help these folks. We all have a part to play cuz you know, I believe the deepest level of healing is sharing one's faith.
And by doing that is healing. We all have a part to play and, and helping to heal. We just have to be more attuned to those who suffer in this way and to break that silence so we talked about earlier, Um, and to say, you know what? That's not okay. I'm sorry that you suffered like that. How can I help you and just listen?
But I think on a more practical level, what I would love. But it's totally up to God. And you know, he surprises me and who knows what he wants. I would love personally every diocese, as many parishes, as many campus ministries as possible to have dedicated pastoral ministry to adult and divorce and separation.
Cuz I do think they need to have that specific time of healing with those who share similar wounds. There's something that's really important about that. There's something important about the in person community and I've noticed in the diocese that have embraced our ministries, it starts changing the local culture.
When you have an in person pastoral ministry, although other ministries around you pro-life, uh, marriage prep, they start changing. They start referring you, they start interacting with you and learning about the issues, learning about the pain and how they can help. So I want a church that can heal better.
That's basically it. I want a church that can heal souls with the wounds of Christ better. And whatever form that takes, so be it, you know? And, um, I just want to contribute to that. And I, you know, the, to me the success is not having my name out there, not damn to me, the success is every healed soul, every person that is touched because of some indirect thing that I did, or one of the teams did, or one of the people did.
You know, It's, it's, um, it can't be quantified, but it, that's sort of, those are my end goals, you know? And also supporting people like you. I mean, we're all working on it together. It, it's, it's, um, it's just to create a church that's better at healing, healing soul. That's the thing. I mean, the thing that breaks my heart the most, I think in doing all this ministry and in my own life, was a church that has said and done nothing for people.
So many people, especially young adults, who come to me and said, you know, nobody from my church reached out to. Hmm. That breaks my heart. That breaks my heart, and nobody reached out to them during their deepest level of pain or after. And we wonder why so many people leave, especially in young adulthood.
That breaks my heart. I want to change that. I want a church that's better at healing because that's the healing that Christ expects of us. That's the healing he talks about by his wounds. He wants to heal all Donald and divorce separation, but we have to say yes to that. We need more people to say yes to that.
and have less people who get into young hood and beyond and said, You know what? Nobody from my church even reached out to me about this. Hmm. That is what I'm about. That's what I'm trying to do. That's why I'm trying to noble other people and other ministries that are willing to have that same vision.
Hmm. Wow. So good. And you clearly have a heart for this. And one of the things, uh, I think is, is just so beautiful is how Yeah. It's just, this is a just cause and you're, you just want to, you know, fight this battle in whatever way possible. And we're, we're rooting for you and I appreciate the, you know, the support and return and.
Yeah, Catholic leaders out there. Anyone who works on a diocesan level, uh, in, in parishes. Uh, think about how you can implement this in your diocese and you can contact Dan. We'll give you info on that in the show notes and then at the end here. But, um, but yeah, there, there's such a potential here. There's such a need.
Uh, and, and it's very clear it's anyone who's not aware of it. If you just look into this for like five seconds, you'll realize how much of a need there is here. And so, Dan, you guys are doing great things and just really happy to support you guys. And for you, one of the ways that you, uh, help children of divorce when really practical ways you offer retreats, like you mentioned.
And so just wanna talk about those really briefly. What happens on those retreats? Start with that and, and I have another question. Well, it's a time of personal reflection. You get a time to journal, you get a time to talk in small groups about this pain. But, uh, you know, it, it is a Catholic retreat.
Anybody's welcome. Um, anybody's welcome. Christian, you're far away, but I do wanna let you know it is Catholic. So we do some Catholic practices, but I'm happy to walk you through what those are, why we do that. And just quietly can pray during those times, even if you don't understand it there. So there's, there's also the sacraments, of course.
There's the sacrament eu. , there is, um, times of prayer. Uh, we, you know, we introduce them to some Catholic devotions as well, which again, I'm happy to explain for those who don't know, like the Divine Mercy Chapel. Well, so the heart of the retreat is to try to spiritually heal. We're, we're not, We focus a little bit on the psychological side of things, some dynamics, but it's primarily to increase your faith, hope and love.
So it's to, you know, help you spiritually heal to encounter Christ. And so we go through our father prayer actually. And how does our father prayer relate to different wounds we might have in the aftermath that our parents divorce, like the wound of identity, our wound, a relationship with God I wound to love and how we approach intimate relationships.
And we also address the topic of forgiveness, anger. Anxiety and also what's the meaning of Christian suffering and then, and perhaps most importantly, the joy, the joy that we can experience in our life. So, um, those are some of the topics that, some of the dynamic of the retreat. You can find more information about the retreated life giving wounds.org, but overall, it's a place to honor your ones and you can make the retreat multiple times.
I often tell people when they make the. If all you do this weekend is just begin to grieve, that's great. That's, that's, that's a great first step. That's all that some people do, you know, their first time. It just opens up a place in person to, to grieve. Yeah. I was curious, um, what are some of the benefits that people have, uh, walked away with from after attending the, the retreat?
Yeah. Well, thanks for asking. I think instead of me saying, I'd like to just share with you some of the testimonies that I received from people. Like, here's, here's what some past participants have said. One man said this retreat was such a beautiful experience. Uh, the retreat team is so humble and caring.
Obviously parts of the retreat were painful, but everything pointed to understanding that pain and healing with God's grace. So again, it's to give insight to better understand the wounds that people have and to un uncover the hidden wound. To name them. Um, another person talks about the community. She says, quote.
While the retreat was very difficult because of the topic and memories, it was also very healing to see the community see that there are other people out there who have been similarly wounded. And it's not just me. It was incredibly beautiful. You know, other people have said that it's deep in their faith with God.
Obviously that's what that person was getting at the community. The insight, I love what this other person said. Uh, just to share another one, I came to the retreat thinking I might get one or two things from it, but I'm leaving with a whole new perspective on how to live my life. And with a bigger heart for my family.
Mm-hmm. . And that's another thing to have bigger heart for your family. I, I've had retreats who finally, it, it enables 'em to get over the hump to say yes to engagement and marriage from this. But I think the point is that there's something that this retreat has to offer everybody, no matter what level of healing you have.
And it's to set you on a journey. I mean, one, there no illusions that, you know, one retreat weekend's gonna change your life, uh, completely. Right? Uh, but we do hope it sends you on a, uh, it's like a spark for a deeper journey of healing. And it, it can be truly life changing. I myself was a recipient of a life changing retreat that changed the trajectory of my life in high school.
And I've seen this happen to other people. And I hope it happens for you too. But no matter what, uh, there's just so many graces. We're humbled to hear from participants often, many years later too. Um, from it. So there, there's a whole lot of things, but if I have to boil 'em down, what we consistently hear is insight community and deep in faith.
That's beautiful. And I, as you were talking, I was thinking one of the most practical benefits, I would say is that they just have the time and a place and the support to process a lot of the pain and the problems in their life and kind of dive into, like you said, the grieving process and things like that.
Because so often I think, uh, it's so easy to just go through life on autopilot and life is just so busy. Uh, it's easy not to make healing a priority. And so by doing one of these weekend retreats, cuz they're, they're what, three days long, is that right? Yeah, typically three days. We do have a two day adapted version cause some diocese have asked us for shorter, so.
It can be adopted. Yeah. Yeah. But it's just, that's such a benefit in and of itself. It's like, yeah, can you do some of this on your own? Possibly. Um, but you may not make the time for it, or you may not have the support, or you may not, uh, you know, have the content to, to go through. And so it's, yeah, I can recommend these more.
I haven't been on them, uh, yet myself, but I, a lot of people I trust, uh, have, and they say really good things about it. So guys, definitely encourage you to go. Um, Dan is life giving wounds is where they can learn, uh, more about it. Life giving wounds.org, not.com. Dot org. Uh, is that the best place for 'em to sign up and learn more about it?
Yeah. Life Giving wounds.org has our calendar with all the different retreats, and I'm really excited to announce that next year we're gonna be all over America, all four corners. Uh, we're gonna be on the west coast, the east coast, down south, and Midwest. Um, you can find out about that. You can also, we just launched a Facebook page, uh, Life Giving Wounds, uh, Facebook page.
You can also see all the different retreats on there. And as we set up local chapters, we're gonna publish when they start running retreats as well. Right now we're in four diocese. Next year we're gonna be in nine diocese, and each diocese is gonna continue doing a retreat in a support group after the fact.
So we'll keep posting and there's gonna be more and more opportunities for people to go. Uh, but yeah, best places, life giving wounds.org or a Facebook page. You can also like and follow us will put all the announcements up as soon as we get them on the Facebook page. And you can also email me at dan life giving wounds.org.
Uh, as a final word, what, what would you say to someone who, uh, feels very broken and stuck in life, uh, teenager or young adult, especially because of their parents' divorce? What words of encouragement would you give to them? Healing is real. But healing can only happen with God. Don't run away from God, but run toward him.
You won't be disappointed. You'll be surprised. He wants to fill your wounds. He wants to fill those wounds with love, faith, hope, and Christ. So please, brothers and sisters out there, even if you're pushing God away, give him a second chance. Run toward him, please. You won't regret it, I promise you. Dan, thank you so much for, for being here, for everything you're doing with your ministry and just, uh, everything you've done to yeah, become the man that you are.
It's inspiring. So thank you so much. Thank you, Joe. You rock. You got a great ministry, folks. Keep listening and restored and keep following Joey. He's got a lot of gifts himself and I'm inspired by you and I admire you as well, Joey. So thank you for having. Lots of good takeaways. I'll just mention one. I especially love this line that Dr.
Daniel said. He said, For me, healing is not the absence of pain, but rather how I respond to that pain and I respond completely different. Now, I don't get stuck in it. Love that. If you wanna attend one of Dr. Daniel's retreats, uh, here's how you do that. Go to life giving wounds.org. not.com. Dot org slash recovering.
Dash origins. Again, that's life giving wounds.org/recovering-origins. And on that page you can read about the retreat, get a little bit more info about it, and then at the bottom you'll see a button that says Attend a retreat. Once you click that, You'll see a list of the retreats offered, uh, their locations, dates, and so on.
And you can, uh, on that page, you can click to, to register. And I mentioned a discount code at the beginning. Uh, Dr. Daniel is generously offering a $20 discount for anyone who, who mentions the Restored podcast when they're signing up for the, uh, 20, 20 February or April retreats that are, uh, hosted in Silver Spring, Maryland.
Little bonus for you guys there, so hope you take advantage of that. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash nine. That's the number nine restored ministry.com/nine. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful, go ahead and subscribe and share this podcast with someone you know who could use it.
Always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.
