#110: 10 Ways to Make Therapy Fail or Succeed for You | Clare Eckard

If there were 10 things you can do to make therapy succeed (or fail), would you want to know them? I know I would. 

In this episode, a therapist joins us to share those tips, plus: 

• The goal of therapy and the temptation to idealize healing

• A tool for dealing with troubling thoughts

• The struggle to put words to your own emotions and experiences of brokenness

If you’ve ever been to therapy and it hasn’t gone well or you’re considering therapy but you’re unsure how to make it successful, this episode is for you.

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

There are 10 things that you can do or not do in order to make therapy succeed or fail. And in this episode, we're going to break those down with my guest who is a therapist. Plus we talk about the goal of therapy and our tendency to idolize healing. We also talk about a simple tool that you can use.

My guest shares a simple tool that you can use to deal with troubling thoughts. We also talk about how all of us experienced that struggle of. Putting into words, our emotions and our wounds. You're also just gonna get some really awesome quotes from this episode. And we also talk about what to do if you're dealing with a situation where you're not happy with your current therapist.

And so if you've ever been to therapy and it didn't go very well, or maybe you're considering going to therapy and you wanna make the most of it, this episode is for you. You're really gonna benefit from the content in it. And so stay with us.

Welcome to The Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken marriage, so you can feel whole again and break the cycle.

I'm your host, Joey Panarelli, and this is episode 110. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found this podcast helpful, and even healing, for tons of feedback. Graciela said this, she said, Just listen to the podcast, man, it's great. I hope many young people will listen. I wish I would have had resources like this.

When I was growing up, Karen said this, she said, what an excellent podcast. I've listened to three episodes so far, and I can relate to so much of this. There's so much isolation with being a child of divorce. And I feel I've found a community with this podcast. Again, we're so happy that we've been able to guide you to help you in your journey.

And if you want to tell us how we've been able to help you, we'd love to hear it. Just go to restored ministry. Again, restored ministry. com slash testimony, or just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Claire Eckerd. Claire is a psychotherapist with a master's degree in clinical mental health counseling from Franciscan University of Steubenville with two concentrations, crisis and trauma counseling and Christian counseling.

She works at St. Raphael Counseling with teens and adults presenting with various mental health questions. struggles. Uh, the team of therapists at St. Raphael Counseling serves individuals ages four and up, as well as couples, families across the front range area of Colorado with telehealth and in person options.

Uh, St. Raphael Counseling also provides testing for students who may have a learning attention or autism spectrum disorder. And so in this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this podcast for a while knows.

That this is not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, I'm glad that you're here. If you don't believe in God, again, if you were to take out the God parts, if you're going to take out the faith parts, you're still going to benefit from this episode. And so my challenge to you would be just listen with an open mind.

And again, I know you're going to benefit from it. And so with that, here's my chat with Claire.

Claire, it's so good to have you on the show. Welcome. Thank you so much. It's an honor, honor to be here. Likewise, honored to have you. I want to go into your backstory a little bit, but starting out, I'm just curious. Why did you become a therapist? Mm, million dollar question. Um, yeah, so it really was a calling, which like, In faith terms is like, yeah, that movement in my heart for, um, God, just wanting to use my talents in this way and that passion to serve others in this way.

And it really took a few years to take the leap to go to grad school. Cause I was honestly kind of intimidated by it. Um, and just the ideas in my head of what I thought it would be like, but the doors just kept opening. So here I am, and I'm really happy. Beautiful. I love it. And tell me a little bit about your training and maybe the type of therapy that you do now.

So you went to my alma mater, Franciscan University for grad school. Is that right? Yeah. And yeah, it's a clinical mental health counseling program is what it's called. Um, so we're accredited by the state. Um, and then we're also a Catholic university. It's actually Kind of the only in person Catholic, like, authentically Catholic university that has this kind of program.

Um, which is why I chose it. Um, and they also had a concentration in crisis and trauma and Christian counseling, which was really neat as well. Beautiful. Okay. I love that. And in your work now, is there a particular therapy model that you follow? Or how does that work? I'm not a therapist. You're talking to a lay person here, but I'm just curious.

Um, yeah, kind of what you're doing today. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I mostly use cognitive behavioral therapy, which I'm sure you've heard of. Um, most people that have taken a psychology class or gone to therapy have heard of it because it's one of the most popular, um, theories used and it's been around. Um, about the longest and just has a lot of research backing it.

Um, and I really love to use it. Cause a lot of it is like getting to the heart of the issue and unpacking what's true and what might feel true, but not actually be true. And, and I also just find it really compatible for people that, um, yeah, are living a Christian faith or Catholic faith and want to make sure that the, whatever theory we're using is compatible with their faith.

And since so much of it is unpacking the truth, it's, it's really compatible. Very cool. And, uh, I know some people just think of, uh, cognitive behavioral therapy as just like talk therapy, but it sounds like there's more to it than just that. And. There is a difference, I think, between like our worldview and our experience of the world.

I've, I heard, um, Bessel van der Kirk, who wrote the book, The Body Keeps the Score, talk about this recently in a podcast episode. He was basically saying that, you know, it's a good thing to have a worldview, like what you believe is true about the world. Like, you know, being a Christian or if you're Jewish, whatever, like you have a worldview, even, you know, atheists have worldviews.

But he said more important to that is how you respond to the world. And so much of how you respond to the world comes down to really the brokenness, the trauma that you've experienced and the virtues that you've developed. And so, um, I thought that was really profound and interesting. And so I love how you're able to kind of help people align their worldview with their kind of response to the world.

Yeah. Wow. I love that. I might use that. Please do. I wish I could say I came up with it, but I didn't, but I, um, I wanted to go into your story as well. So I'm just curious, what's been your experience with, with trauma, with brokenness and healing? Yeah, no, also a great question. Um, and totally has a lot of layers, but basically, Long story short is, um, yeah, I had an eating disorder starting end of middle school into high school, a little bit into college, and didn't really know that therapy was an option for me, um, just didn't.

have the knowledge, like, that it was a resource, um, and know if it was a trusted resource. So I was very skeptical of it, um, for different reasons. Um, but, uh, praise God, a priest directed me to go to a counselor that happened to be free at school at Ave Maria's where I did my undergrad. And yeah, it was super life changing and, and actually my first therapist wasn't the most impactful, but it was finally a space where I felt like I could be understood, which was new because I didn't really understand what was going on.

Why I couldn't stop when I wanted to stop some behaviors. Um, but it was actually my second therapist who really, really changed my life. Um, and was able to just speak into my story and help me understand myself and how I could make steps towards change and freedom and healing. Um, Yeah, I remember at the time thinking like this kind of little small voice like maybe I could do this someday, but probably not So yeah, Wow, beautiful.

Okay, so you had this Transformational experience that eventually led to you wanting to help other people have those same transformations, which is really really beautiful before we go deeper there I am curious about kind of that experience of waking up to the fact that you had this problem this Disorder I I'm curious, like, did you have language to put to that disorder out of the gate?

Did you realize, like, oh, I'm struggling with an eating disorder, this is what it's called, sort of thing. And the reason I ask that question is, I remember, you know, when my parents split when I was really young, and then later, or not really young, I was, you know, 11, around 11 years old, and then in the years that followed, especially in the high school, having experiences of, um, anxiety and even depression.

And I didn't have the language to put to those things, so I didn't actually know what I was experiencing. Um, I don't even know how I thought about it, but I just knew I just didn't feel right. That was kind of the way that I would talk about it. And so, um, eventually got the language and was able to recognize, Wow, okay, I'm dealing with kind of intense anxiety, or maybe a little bit of OCD here, and some depression, and all those different things.

So I'm just curious if you were able to kind of pinpoint the language, and if not, when that occurred. Yeah, totally. I have a lot of thoughts from what you said, but I'll start with I think that experience is what most people come to therapy with, like, I know something's wrong. And I know whatever I've tried is not working.

And I just need help from someone who might understand more. And I think that's probably mostly how I came to therapy. I did. I do remember like in middle school, we learned about eating disorders in my like guidance And I remember asking a friend, like, I wonder, like, do I have this? And she's like, no, no, no.

Like you would know if you had it. And then I was like, okay. But I think a lot of maybe, yeah. What was going on inside me emotionally. Like I didn't know how to vocalize how it was feeling. So I think a lot of what I learned was. I have emotions and they're neither good nor bad. They just are. And, um, it's okay to have them.

And I have emotional needs and I can like in your book, you talk about like, how do we choose healthy coping? And I really had to learn what that meant and that. I was just choosing really unhealthy coping. Yeah, no, it's easy to do and I can relate to with a lot of what you said. I love that you said that about kind of people entering into therapy often with that sense of like, something's not right, but I don't totally know how to talk about it.

And I think there is so much freedom in working with a therapist like yourself who can help you. You know, first kind of grow this awareness, recognize what you're dealing with in a sense, diagnose the problem. And then once you've done that, then you can, like you said, do all some coping strategies and then hopefully also work on healing maybe the root cause of it so that it either disappears the problem or becomes a much more manageable thing to, to go through.

So I love that you said all of that and man, there's so much we can talk about there. Any further thoughts before we move on? Um, yeah, I mean, there's so much more we can talk about, I think. I just like that you use the word manage, because I think often people come in like wanting to fix the problem or wanting to get rid of anxiety, but anxiety, like, everyone has it even, like, The perfect mother of God was anxious when she couldn't find her son and it's really more about how can I manage this better and learn more about myself so that I can do that.

Yeah, no, and I think those, um, those tactics are so important. And I do think, I do think there is hope that in some scenarios, I don't think every wound can be healed to like a hundred percent. But I've seen evidence that there are, there is the possibility of even going beyond the management. Um, but what often I think needs to happen, like you're saying is like, we need to at least get some sort of like, you know, handle on the situation, some sort of, like you said, coping mechanisms to like make it through.

Um, and then hopefully we can go from that just like surviving or, um, kind of getting by to then. You know, thriving. And so maybe, um, yeah, would you talk about that a little bit? I'm just curious kind of what you've seen in your life too. Can wounds be completely healed or is that kind of a pipe dream?

Maybe that is too wishful. Oh, I like this. Um, uh, this is a very interesting question. I think The way I usually conceptualize it based on my own journey and just people I work with is like, there's still a scab usually, but I mean, we also have in our body. There's ones that don't have scabs. So I think maybe some things like do really become a part of your past that you, yeah, there's no scab.

It just is something you worked through. But I think, The way I usually think about it, especially with mental health struggles is like, there usually is a scab because even like, um, like compulsive behaviors such as eating disorder. Like if you have struggled and learned how to use it as an unhealthy coping, it is still something that you might be tempted to do again.

And you just have to kind of be aware. I have that scab. It's been healed. But if I find myself needing to cope emotionally, I need to be vigilant of like, what is healthy coping? And if I slip up, what supports do I have? What do I need to do to get back on track? That's good. And that makes a lot of sense.

And I do think different wounds can be treated differently. And I do think You've probably seen this too. Some therapists or therapy models are more effective at treating certain things than others. And I like to use the analogy of the medical world or our physical bodies when we're trying to heal them.

So, you know, there are situations where if you were to break your wrists or your arm, that can be completely healed. Now there is, there's going to be the tissue that builds up. I don't know why I can't think of the name, the um, the fractured like bone or the tissue essentially that, you know, develops in response to the broken bone, which actually can make it right, stronger if I'm getting that right.

I'm not a doctor or a therapist, um, as you can tell. But yeah, I think, I think there's something to be said for that. But the way that I like to think about healing is in the Google definition of healing, which is like the process of becoming like healthy and whole. And I think that does look different in different situations.

So I do think in certain situations, Maybe a wound can be healed to the point where you don't even recognize it was there in the, at all, to begin with. Whereas others, like you said, there is maybe a continual, like, scar or scab. Um, whereas others, there might be a continual limp because it's something we just haven't figured out yet how to heal.

And that's where maybe I'm a little, um, idealistic in my thinking about healing. Because I think, There conceptually potentially is a way to heal all these things, but maybe we just haven't figured it out yet, or I don't know, you know, what you think about that, but I think there is the potential in the future, maybe that we, for example, come up with better models, and I've seen some of them to heal trauma and that work better than things we've done in the past and almost maybe eliminate or make it, like you said, way more manageable to deal with that trauma.

So I don't know if that's making sense, but, um, yeah. Yeah. Curious what you think about that. Yeah. I, it's actually funny. You bring up like the kind of idealism appealing. Cause I remember in my internship, which I did at Francis skin for students, um, I used to write in my treatment plans, like the goal is to like reduce the anxiety or reduce.

And my supervisor was like, That's what he was like. No, it's not. It's to manage, um, because, um, to reduce like it kind of creates this sometimes impossible standard. And I'm trying to think of like, it's hard to talk in general, generalities, because I'm trying to think of some specifics, but like, especially related to emotions, because a lot of mental health stuff is all related to like our thoughts, emotions and behaviors.

And it's like, we're just never gonna get rid of. Even negative emotions like they're always going to be part of the human experience. I totally agree with that. Yeah. And that makes sense about, you know, especially very common experiences. I think, um, kind of what I've seen and I love that we're kind of, you know, Going around this topic, um, and kind of poking at it because it's an important one and I like that you said kind of the Idolism of you know healing because I think it we can fall into that But I think there is it is really interesting to see kind of some things seem to be able to be healed more than others And others maybe not as much and I think of like, you know stage four cancer It's obviously Maybe it's so far progressed that it would be really, really difficult.

Maybe in the future, we'll come up with a way to heal that, perhaps. I don't know. Um, but right now that would be maybe not possible to heal. Whereas, you know, breaking your, like I said before, you know, breaking your ankle or something. Um, we could get to a point where that's healed to almost as if it didn't occur to begin with.

But at the same time, I like what you're saying. When you have these experiences, these emotions that are just like a normal part of human life, we can't like chop those out, nor would we want to. And so I think that's, um, that's an important point that you made. And I'm glad that you made it as well. I, um, I also just wanted to touch on a little bit about, um, just the importance going back to what we were talking before of.

Being able to put your emotions and experiences into words, um, that seems to be so much of the point of therapy, like we were saying before, and I remember reading Dr. Susan David's book, Emotional Agility, um, really benefited from that book, and one of the things that she talks about is just how important it is to put your emotions into words, and she even talks about alexithymia, Which for anyone listening who doesn't know, it's like the inability to distinguish between and put into words your own emotions.

And that inability greatly handicaps you. It greatly holds you back from being able to manage or, you know, cope with things and even maybe to move beyond them to close that chapter in your life. And so. I think there's a lot of beauty to that. And so I do want to transition into kind of talking about therapy.

Like, how do you make therapy, um, effective? How do you make it productive? How do you make it fruitful? Um, or whatever word you would use to, you know, talk about it. So I'm curious there. Um, let's start with the negatives. Like, how do you guarantee that therapy like won't work? Yeah. I think the only time it won't work is if you don't show up, if you schedule an appointment and don't go.

And sometimes it might take scheduling a few times before you get the courage to go, because, I mean, you and me both have been in therapy, and it can be, like, not something you want to do. And I think... Showing up sometimes is all you can do and sometimes maybe you show up for a while and that's all you can do.

And then maybe eventually, hopefully you can start to open up and get comfortable and realize this like is worth investing in. This is worth being vulnerable for, um, and. It's worth trying to understand myself better so that I can move more towards healing. That's really good. Yeah. And so that's a great way to guarantee that therapy won't work if you don't show up.

Um, and I guess, I don't know if we want to go through these and do just the flip side of it, but I guess we're going through like what would contribute to making it helpful and healing. So we could, I guess, do both at the same time. So showing up, that's the first one. Um, what else would you say is an ingredient or factor in making therapy successful?

Successful? Yeah, um, I think, like, being honest and humble, like, just having the space where you can even just be honest, like, I don't know what's going on, or I don't know if this makes sense, but this is my best guess, like, something we'll say as therapists is like, Just give me your best guess. Like, try your best to describe this and maybe I can fill in some gaps based off of other people with similar experiences in my education.

Yeah, but I think Oh, another point on that is one of my favorite professors from grad school. Um, he said, and, um, he's not Catholic or anything. Um, but like awesome professor, he said, like, there's such humility that comes with therapy. Like it's a great act of humility, which is a virtue. It's the crown of all virtues.

So I think knowing that just the act of therapy, um, It's helping you grow in virtue and honesty, humility, and many others. Courage can help encourage you on the way. Um, yeah, I like that. Okay. So we have, so far we have just showing up. We have being honest. So telling the truth, um, we have being humble. So not being like egotistical or prideful, and then we have being courageous is another one that I wrote down.

Um, so to flip them on their head, if you don't show up, if you lie and you're not honest, if you are super prideful and arrogant and don't want to admit, you know. To a weakness or a wound and if you kind of shy back from going into the hard things, meaning you're not being courageous, you're being cowardly.

It won't work. So, um, but, but if you do those things, it will work. Another one I was thinking of, which you alluded to, um, and even said, I think is just the vulnerability component. And that goes along with every, the other ones that you said, but just like this willingness to kind of be open and to spill out your heart, just being like, yeah, Hey, this is where I'm at.

And I found such freedom there in my life, especially when it comes to therapy, but also with just mentors of mine who are able to, you know, kind of walk with me through really difficult things. I think we all fear being completely vulnerable with someone, um, because we think that if they saw how broken we were, they wouldn't love us.

They wouldn't want us. They wouldn't, you know, give us any sort of time and attention or love. And what I've found is if you Pick the right people to be vulnerable with. It actually makes them love and respect you more because it takes an incredible amount of courage, like you said, to be able to open up that much.

So, yeah, I'm curious what you've seen in your own life going to therapy, but also being a therapist when it comes to vulnerability. How important is that? Yeah, I love the topic of vulnerability and learned a lot from Brene Brown's book, Daring Greatly, um, on vulnerability. Um, I don't agree with everything she says, but I think she does a good job of like explaining it and explaining like how to do it well.

And I think like. What you described as like it being scary or fearful to share with someone. Um, I think a lot of that comes from like real experiences when you try and maybe what you're sharing is too uncomfortable for someone they don't understand or they haven't. Had experiences with that themselves, so they just really don't have the words or maybe there's judgment or things that might make you feel, feel really fearful to do that again, because it might have been painful therapy.

Hopefully, I mean, not every therapist is perfect. It's also. Humans doing it, but hopefully it can be that space where you can know that this professional is someone I can trust and someone who's not going to judge me and someone who is going to validate my experience and help me understand it further.

Um, and hopefully they're, I mean, they're usually an empathetic person. Otherwise they shouldn't have made it to grad school. So good. No, um. So much to say there, but I do want to touch on something where I think everyone kind of leaned in when you said it is that, um, therapists are human too, and not all therapists are created equal.

You said that before as well, and, you know, the first therapist you had was helpful, but it wasn't as impactful. And so I'm curious about that. Like, what do you do if you're in the, in the seat of being the one going to therapy, and maybe you're with a therapist who doesn't seem to be. Kind of working out for you, or you're not really, maybe they're not treating in the way that you would hope.

What would you advise for someone in that situation to do? Yeah, great question. Um, And I'll start with, I think, coming to therapy with an open mind is, is really important. Cause I, I've seen... Some people, and I kind of was this myself, like coming with an agenda or like being skeptical of therapy. And so quickly judging like, Oh, the service isn't for me or counseling can't work because I can't find the right therapist.

And I just encourage you to. Persevere and have an open mind and try a therapist and be willing to admit, like, if you feel like, do I feel comfortable sharing anything with this person and it might take a little bit of time to build trust because even though they are professional, yeah, they still are a human and it takes time to build trust, just like in any relationship, but usually a little quicker in this professional relationship.

So I think. Thank you. Being open minded and tuning into like your experience and if it's, if you're feeling like, okay, this isn't helpful anymore, um, that's a good time to be like, um, is it because I may be feeling more confident and don't need therapy right now or is it because I want to try another therapist, um, which is so real because sometimes it's even just the personality you don't jive well with and that might prohibit you from getting the therapy you need.

Yeah, I love that. There's so much freedom there. And I think that's good. And so in that situation, what's something maybe someone could say to that therapist that they're working with, um, instead of maybe just like ghosting them and never showing up again? Um, I'm curious, cause I think there's probably a right way to do that and a wrong way to do to kind of break the relationship or say like, Hey, this isn't really working for me.

So what would work well in that situation? If someone may be listening right now is finding themselves in a situation where they want to try a different therapist. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if there's necessarily a right or wrong way. Like often people do just ghost. I mean, not often, but sometimes. And, and like, we understand as therapists, but I think what might be courteous, um, cause it's still a relationship and like, as a therapist, like I care about all my clients.

Um, so like, if someone says like, Hey, like I'm, Okay. I don't need to schedule another appointment or like I'm going to cancel it. I'm not interested in continuing therapy at this time. Like that's, that's enough. And if you want to share more, feel free. And I think, yeah, I mean, if anyone ever says like kind things to me that it does, it means a lot, you know, cause I care about that person.

So yeah, I know that your words. Um, can mean a lot to a therapist. Um, but also if you feel like this wasn't a good experience and I just want it to be done, um, like just being direct and short and clear is enough. I'd say, okay, that's good advice. Yeah. I like that. And I've had therapists in the past where just, yeah, there was something off, like we weren't clicking.

Um, so had to move on, uh, at the same time. There was a therapist. I remember when I was at Franciscan, I was working with him there. And yeah, it took me maybe like nine months to like a year. I did a year and a half of therapy when I was at Franciscan. Um, and in college for anyone doesn't know Franciscan University, but basically I, um, yeah, it took me probably like a year or so to really get to like the deep stuff, which probably prideful.

But, uh, But it took me that long. So I think sometimes, like you were saying before, it could just mean you haven't progressed to that point yet, or you're not maybe willing to take that risk and kind of open up and be, be more vulnerable than maybe you have been in the past, um, because you're scared. And I totally get being scared.

I mean, I know you get that too. Yeah. And I think part of it totally could be that, but it could also just be like therapy can kind of be this. Almost new language of like talking about my feelings and maybe I've never done that before Maybe I haven't even tuned into what I am feeling like sometimes we go through life.

Just thinking okay I get angry sad and happy and I don't even have words for other emotions and there's so many so like a lot of A lot of where people start that I've seen is like just tuning into emotions and thoughts and getting comfortable with that habit so that I can then know how to meet my needs and know what I need to do and, um, know if I'm engaging in unhelpful or true thoughts and become more aware of that.

And also like. This is kind of back to a point you had earlier, um, but when we're able to develop that language to describe ourself to, it then gives us the language to tell those people we know and love and trust and, and to the more you know someone, the more you can love them. So it really gives people the opportunity to love you better when you're able to articulate what's going on better.

No, I love that. That's such an excellent point. Going back to the, um, yeah, this whole idea of like, how do you make therapy successful or sabotage it on the flip side is, um, the homework, like often therapy sessions will end with something you need to do or think about, right? And so I think it's obviously very important to, to do that homework, but I'm curious if you'd talk a little bit more about that and if there's any other things you think that make therapy fruitful, successful or not.

Yeah, I like just the two terms of like implement and invest. So I think checking like your level of investment, like am I making time not just for my hour long or 50 minute therapy session? Like, am I also making time to process and learn healthy coping and have space if I need it to deal with what I'm dealing with?

Um, and then, and am I making that a priority? So am I invested one? And then two, am I implementing it? Cause like, you're not going to get much out of it if you're just like listening in the therapy session, but not implementing what you're talking about. Like you might be in a therapy a long time before it gets effective.

So I think, um, and implementing doesn't have to take a lot of time. It's just for, yeah. Like that tuning into my emotions and thoughts and. Those needs and, um, other there's a whole I could go off on on all of that. Um, I think that and then, yeah, something else I just wanted to mention was, um, support. So whether that's from friends, like, I think the more you can.

Like, it's so great that you're opening up to someone, like your therapist, but it's even better if you could start also opening up more to friends and, and maybe support groups, like, depending on what you're struggling with, those might be good. Um, yeah, because for different struggles, sometimes your friends don't really understand and you might need a support group of other people who do understand what you're going through to really not feel alone.

And it's Crazy how, if people have support, how much more efficient therapy is, like how much more quickly the healing process goes. Talk about that a little bit more. That's fascinating. I love everything that you said. I totally agree with that. But yeah, um, about it being quicker and I don't know if easier would be a word we'd throw in there.

Maybe not. But, um, quicker. Yeah. I'm really curious about that. Yeah, and. This is kind of my own theory, so take it with a grain of salt, but, um, This isn't a PhD dissertation. No, no, no. Um, but I think, like, the goal of therapy is to teach you skills for your own life, so you don't need a therapist. And, not that you won't never need it again, but, like, it's a tool.

Like, the point isn't that you're in therapy the rest of your life, but, like, I really see it as, Something you need, and then you learn and then you don't need. Um, and I think a huge part of that is being able to communicate your emotional needs with friends and family and other supports. And once you're able to do that, like.

Your need for a therapist, depending on what you're struggling with, could decrease and, and then, like, if you're having a bad day, like, you have that healthy coping of, like, I can call this friend and they can speak truth into maybe my thought spiral or my overthinking and it, it really gives, yeah, just that opportunity for love and truth to be spoken and for you to know you're not alone, like, even that, knowing you're not alone can alleviate so much Weight of mental health struggles.

Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, there's so many bad things that happen when we're isolated as humans. I mean, it's people, a lot of people have talked about this, but it's so interesting that one of the worst punishments that you can enter if you're in prison is solitary confinement because there's.

Basically, a misery may be no greater than that. And I know all the introverts are like, maybe that wouldn't be so bad. It's like, no, that would be miserable, even if you're an introvert. Um, but wow, so many good things, Claire. Um, just to kind of summarize the last few points that we talked about is like, be open minded going into therapy of maybe trying different things.

Um, if you want to guarantee it won't work, be close minded, be, you know, hardheaded. Um, also. Yeah, implement, uh, like you said, and invest, and the way I threw it out there was like do, do the homework, do the work that comes with the therapy, not just the therapy itself, um, and if you don't do that, if you just go and talk and never put it into action, you can be guaranteed that it won't work.

And then you said, uh, also just, That that support as is huge. So if you don't have a support system, if you don't have friends, if you don't have maybe family members who can walk with your mentors as well, then you can guarantee that it won't work. But if you do, it's going to, like you said, the healing is going to happen faster.

Uh, which is really beautiful and really encouraging as well. The other one I would just add here, picking up on something you said is kind of building in some, you talked about prioritizing and I think in order to prioritize, you need to build some cushion into your life, which I'm the worst at. So I'm talking to myself and you guys all get to listen.

But, um, but it can be so easy to, especially if you're kind of like this type A, like overachiever type to just like, kind of pack your day and your life with like, I'm going from this thing to this thing to this thing and doing this task and working on this project. And it's like, cool, you know, you're going to wake up at the end of life and you're going to be like, man, I kind of.

Destroyed myself. That's not the purpose of life is just to be productive. And so I think if we want to become, um, more human, become more virtuous, become, um, more loving and live like richer, happier lives, it's really important not to have, um, ours. schedules, like constantly booked, like we need some of that cushion or margin, um, to give us the ability to, you know, do the homework from therapy or just to enjoy like beautiful experiences and do those things that really give us life.

And I think we, especially as Americans, maybe everyone else listening, who's not in the States, like is better at this. I know Europeans listening, like you guys are way better at this than we are. Um, but, uh, but yeah, I've, I've noticed that that's necessary as well. Awesome. Yeah. And I just have a few thoughts about what you said.

One is, I, this is just like a little thing and also from my supervisor at Franciscan, but he didn't like to use the word homework. Um, and I've kind of adopted that from him instead. I'll use challenge and I like it. Yeah. I like it because Like, I always tell people, I'm not grading you. If you don't want to do something, you don't find that you do it, let's try something else because we really want it to be something you can implement and use in your life, like not just now, but like long term.

So like, like something I often use is a common cognitive behavioral therapy tool called thought records. Super simple, but super helpful. I can Talk all about that. But, um, sometimes people don't do it and don't like it. And I'm like, great, like, just be honest and we'll try something else. Cause there are other strategies, but I like the word challenge because really what we're trying to do is just grow into more, into more wholeness, into more of who God made you to be into more of freedom and peace.

Um, so challenges is what helps us grow. Beautiful. No, I like that. And that's a way better way to say it, especially with, when you have the grading aspect, that's not, not super helpful. So I, I totally agree. Thanks for clarifying that. I really appreciate it. Um, the thought record thing, would you explain that a little bit?

Oh yeah, sure. Oh man, I could talk a whole podcast about this. Um, so it's basically a short structured journal entry. Um, And like the one I, if you googled it, you'd find a bunch of different templates because it really is a very common tool in cognitive behavioral therapy. Um, but the one I like is just simple, like from therapistaid.

com or org or whatever. And it just has... Um, you write down the situation, thought, emotion, behavior, and then an alternative thought. And I tell people like a good time to do a thought record is if you notice like I'm overthinking or I'm caught in a thought spiral or, or I feel a big emotion, like I feel super anxious.

Maybe like I even feel it in my body. Like my, my chest is tight. My stomach's churning. Um, Like those are kind of red flags of like, this is a good time to do a thought record and kind of, and there's so many benefits. Like I really could talk a lot about it, but just to be brief, like one is it can stop like the thought spiral and be that space to just reflect before you go down that rabbit hole, which can.

Which in cognitive behavioral therapy, like through evidence based research, they've concluded that our thoughts and emotions are congruent. So that means that, um, if I can stop unhelpful or untrue thoughts, that impacts my emotion and my mood. So I can change my mood by becoming more aware of my thoughts and not engaging as much in unhelpful or untrue thoughts.

And a thought record is a tool to do that. Um, and, and then. Just one final note on that is, um, doing it also can be really good content to bring to therapy because sometimes for some people it's harder to like remember what thoughts or remember or even articulate like I had a really hard day and I don't even know I don't have the language but actually I wrote it down and sometimes for internal processors it's actually really helpful and I've seen it like help not only you know Moment thoughts like we call them automatic thoughts.

So those are like the first layer of thoughts and cognitive behavioral therapy and then there's beneath. Those are like irrational beliefs, which are is exactly what it sounds like. It's irrational. Not true, but I really believe it sounds so good. Like, and that's usually. Like under that is core belief.

So it's basically irrational beliefs. I've had my whole life, usually from wounds and because we, and we all have them because we live in an imperfect world. Um, so thought records can help you change automatic thoughts that you, so that you can then change emotions. And behaviors related to it, but it can also help you detect irrational beliefs.

So that you can bring that to your therapy session and further unpack what's under this, like what layers of wounds do I have that make me believe this thing that I know isn't true? So good. No, I really like that. Both, um, the thought record and. You know what you just mentioned to the different layers of thoughts and beliefs.

That's super helpful. Super good. And it's crazy how if you, there's a lot of people that talk about beliefs that I think it kind of becomes this thing that people tone out to a bit. Um, but I think it is, it's so, so important because if you bust just like one of those untrue beliefs, it can totally change the way that you approach life.

Um, to the point where I've seen people, I remember talking with a friend who, It's a physical therapist and he, you know, broke into running his own business, like, which is not an easy thing to do being an entrepreneur. And, um, there were certain beliefs that he had, which sounds kind of against that kind of superficial hokey, but it's not when you see it in action that once he kind of addressed those and be like, man, I, you know, always thought this way about like me and running a business.

And once he was able to break through that, his business started like growing and he started. To be able to succeed in the whole entrepreneurial thing, which is really, really beautiful. So there are concrete examples. It's not just some of this, you know, again, like vague thing that you just swirl your head around all the time.

And I'm not saying you're saying that, but I think a lot of times when people hear us talking about this, they think that that's it. No, it's like, it can be very concrete in your own life if you bust those, you know, kind of untrue beliefs. Absolutely. And we could talk a lot more about that too. Um, yeah, I just, I love cognitive behavioral therapy and it's, it's what helped me and what I really just find to be so impactful with my clients.

I like that. Yeah. And I think sometimes it gets a bad rap. Um, people maybe reduce it to just like thought. Uh, talk therapy, um, but I think it, yeah, from what you're sharing now, there's so much more to it as well. And I have benefited from it too. I've benefited from other therapy models as well, but um, I have benefited from, uh, CBT.

So thank you, um, for, for going through all of that. Any final items that you wanted to touch on when it comes to how to make, uh, therapy fruitful? Uh, back to when you were summarizing it, um, you had summarized like support helps. Um, yeah, just expedite the process. Um, and I just wanted to add that, like, if you don't have support, that's okay.

Like, you can work with your therapist on how can I get creative and build my support. And sometimes that's a great place to start. Um, and you've already come to therapy, so you have that support. And, and building it can make a huge. different. So that's a lot of what we do often in therapy, too, is if people don't have good supports or if they're not opening up to their good supports and don't feel comfortable sharing, it's like, how can we work to get there?

Really good. And I think a lot of people. might be afraid to that they would maybe develop some unhealthy dependency on people in their lives. But that's the beauty of what you just said. It's like, you can actually learn how to have like an appropriate, like interdependent relationship. That's not over relying on that person on the other end.

And it can be really life giving on both ends, which is really beautiful. And I've seen that and I've lived that and it's, it's, it can be so good. So I love that you said that. And the only other thing that came to related to the first point of just showing up is starting. I think maybe of showing up as like the ongoing effort, whereas I think starting is like turning the key to, you know, get the engine going.

And that I think is probably the hardest part, in my opinion, Claire, like there's so many barriers that we have in our minds when it comes to therapy, where there's so many things that we maybe even just like barriers that we create ourselves because for one reason or another, we don't want to go there.

Um, but man, if you could just get started, if you can just like. Experiment. Um, I think that is really, really helpful and that's one of the ways I trick myself into doing things often is, uh, and I'm curious if you have any tips for this too, but I'll, I'll just trick myself into thinking like, oh, you know what, um, I'm just gonna kind of put on this like experimenters hat or.

lab coat and just be like, you know, I'm just gonna try it. I'm going to do one time and see how that goes. And then I'll go from there. Um, and, and I've noticed that that will get me moving way more than if I think of the totality of it because it feels too heavy and too big. Um, but I can, you know, hone in on the one little piece that just very next step and not really think about the overall effort.

At least that's been helpful for me. So curious about, uh, for you, like what. tips or hacks you have about just getting started. Yeah. I mean, I love what you just said. And actually that's the language my supervisor now uses. He's like, let's try an experiment. And I think too, like we talk a lot about overwhelm, like I feel overwhelmed and like, what do I do with that?

Cause it feels like I don't know what to do with that. And the, the really. I think the way to combat it is one step at a time, because if it's super overwhelming, if I start taking steps, just start, start experimenting pretty soon, it's going to be less overwhelming, but it's that like, okay, it feels overwhelming.

Maybe there's anxiety. So I avoid it. That's going to make it grow because you're not doing the things you need to do to make it decrease. Um, and I also think on your point that it's just, it's such a good. Outlook to like be, um, willing to not be great at things like to just experiment and try new things.

Like how much more full can your life be if you're willing to get out of your comfort zone? Boom. So good. And I, um, I don't know if this is true, but I call that like willingness to suck, like just being really willing to be like, Hey, you know, I'm going to look. Ridiculous. And this kind of maybe fits under the point of humility, but I'm going to look ridiculous.

I'm going to sound ridiculous. People might even make fun of me or judge me, but I'm just willing to be bad at this to start. And if you're willing to go through that discomfort, what I've realized in life, whether it's in like, Business or fitness or anything, managing your money, um, you're going to get further than the people who are criticizing you.

Not that it's a competition. I'm not like saying you want to beat everyone down or anything like that, but those opinions are often the things that I think hold us back. And so I think if you grow that muscle of just, Hey, I'm not going to be good at this right away. I'm not going to be a pro. How, how would I be a pro at this?

I'm starting out fresh. Like who can expect that? And I think if you take that, um, mindset, I guess, into, into it, I think you can get way, way further faster than if you kind of think about it forever and never actually. Take the first step. Absolutely. And I love what you're saying. Cause I have that same similar mindset and have to remind myself to have that mindset.

Like I have a Rocky Balboa quote of like, you ain't gonna have a life until you start believing in yourself. Um, and then another good quote, um, actually from Bernays Brown. Brené Brown's book, Daring Greatly, is Theodore Roosevelt's quote, and it's kind of longer, but it's about the man in the arena, and it's like, the one in it, like, getting bloody, like, doing it, like, there's so much more respect for him, even if he fails, than someone who doesn't try.

Love that. I absolutely love that quote and yeah, so good. So maybe we'll attach this to this episode somehow. We'll have to, might even have to figure that out. But Claire, I know we're almost out of time here. Any final thoughts or anything you'd add about making therapy fruitful? Yeah, maybe I'll just end with some Bible verses that kind of I bring up a lot in therapy.

Um, so even if you're not, um, religious, like just, I would just encourage you to have an open mind. But, um, yeah, kind of the top three ones that I bring up a lot are 1 John 11, which is God is light and in him there is no darkness at all. And I think I love this because it's just like, there's so much.

Beauty that comes when you bring things to the light, and that's where the healing begins. Like you can't, a doctor can't heal anything, heal something that he can't see or that you're not showing him, you're not presenting him. So I think similar with like mental health, like just bringing it to the light, like, Ooh, that's a huge first step.

Um, and then the next one is Romans 8, 28 in. In all things, God works for the good of those who love him, which I think just, oh, I love this because Like, it just validates that no matter what you've done, um, he can make it good. And like, like my story, like, he's transfigured it for beauty, and your story, like, look at what you're doing with your story, and, and anyone listening, like, he wants to bring whatever you've done.

And always like, if you come back to him, if you come back to truth, um, it can be used for good. And like the, the saying healed people, heal people. Um, so there's just so much hope in that, I think. And then the last one is 2 just my powers made perfect in weakness and that's God's power. So just it's in our brokenness that he can work the most.

So like our brokenness.

Um, but yeah, those are, uh, kind of my top three Bible verses I'd say. Beautiful. Well, thanks for sharing all that and yeah, definitely moving. And I love that quote, you know, heal people, heal people. That's super, super good. Um, man, Claire, thank you so much for coming on the show. Um, if people want to do therapy with you, I know you're in Colorado, um, how do they find you online?

How do they start that process? Yes, so you can call our main office at St. Raphael's and request me. That'd be great. I have openings. Love, would love to work with you. Um, find it such a joy. Um, and then we also have, um, our website, um, Which I'm not going to remember, but maybe we can put in the show notes.

I think it's like straphaelcounseling. com. Um, and you can look up all our therapists. We have really a really solid team of therapists. So if I'm not like the right personality for you, I, I'm pretty sure there could be someone on our team that is beautiful. I love that. And then I'd love for you just in closing to speak to.

All of our listeners who come from broken families, what maybe final piece of encouragement or advice would you give to them, especially if they just feel stuck and so broken because of all the trauma and the brokenness in their families? Yeah. Wow. I mean, I really love your book. And I think like them just having the resources you've provided can really validate a lot of probably the experiences they have.

Um, I know I actually have a few. Clients reading your book and they've expressed that and I think just yeah, like the title of your book It's not your fault and and starting there like I think you really got to the heart of the issue because it allows them allow someone to Yeah, really delve into like, okay, this did affect me and this really maybe deeply affected me because Yeah, for so many reasons that we could go into but um, yeah, I think just knowing there's hope there's healing And and taking advantage of the resources out there that like you have provided and therapy And knowing that that there's there's just so much hope.

Yeah

Again, if you're in Colorado, you can find Claire and the other therapists at her practice by going to strafeelcounseling. com or just clicking the link in the show notes. On that page, actually, if you click appointments, you can actually get a free, I think it's a 50 minute consult for free, which is awesome.

And so my apologies if in the future that changes after this recording, but for now you can get a free consult if you go to that page. And to recap this episode, I just want to go through those 10 tips again. Uh, the first is to just show up, right? Just show up to put in the work. If you don't show up, you don't put in the work, you're guaranteed to fail.

The next thing is to be honest and vulnerable. If you're closed off, if you're not honest, if you lie, if you deceive, you're not going to get much out of therapy. It's not going to work for you. Number three is be humble. Be humble. If you're arrogant and prideful and egotistical, therapy is not going to work for you.

You need to go and be honest that, you know, life isn't the way you want it to be. You feel broken and you need help. Number four is be courageous. Like therapy is hard. It takes courage, but I love this quote. It, you know, courage is not the absence of fear. It's acting in spite of your fear. And so be courageous.

It's not a place to be cowardly. Uh, if you want to, you know, Shrink back from challenges. Therapy is not for you, but if you're ready to step up, uh, and to go at it and know that you'll have the support of the therapist, you're not, you don't have to like, you know, grow all this bravery on your own, but if you go at it, be courageous, put in the hard work, you're going to see benefits from it.

So that's number four. Five is to be open minded. You might be challenged in ways that you never thought you might be challenged to, you know, address parts of your past or your woundedness in a way that you never thought you might. Need to or be able to but be open minded and you'd be surprised at how much you're capable of.

That's number five. Six is implement and invest in the challenges. So remember we said we're not gonna call it homework, but we're gonna call it challenges. Those challenges are really the key to making therapy effective. Number seven is build cushion into your life. Like we need some cushion in our lives, which I'm horrible at but I'm gonna work on to be able to to grow, to grow personally, to build virtue, to heal.

Our woundedness, our brokenness, um, be able to move on in life because if our schedules are packed and our to do lists are super long and we're always focused on that, we're not going to do that hard work that often takes a lot of energy, a lot of emotional focus in order to heal. And so number eight is, uh, build support around you.

Build support around it. You can't do it alone. Like if you want to guarantee failure, you know, do it alone. Um, number nine is start as an experiment, start as an experiment. It can be so intimidating to do everything at once. And so don't do that. Just start as an experiment, do a little bit at once, you know, go to one session.

Do the free consult. See how it goes. Maybe it doesn't work for you. I don't know. Um, but then, you know, every time just think of it as a little bit of an experiment, a little bit of a bet and go from there. Number 10 is be willing to suck or be bad at it. That's so important with anything in life. You're not going to attain any sort of a skill unless you're willing to not be great at the skill when you start, like who is exceptional.

Very few people are really great and I'm any skill when they just start. And so again, show up is number one, two is be honest and vulnerable. Three is be humble. Four, be courageous, five, be open minded, six, uh, implement and invest in the challenges, seven, build cushion into your life, eight, um, build support around you, don't do it alone, uh, nine, start as an experiment, and ten, be willing to suck or be bad.

At it also, I absolutely love the quote that Claire mentioned from Teddy Roosevelt, uh, the man in the arena, and I wanted to share that in a second. But first, if you're not in Colorado and you still want a counselor, a spiritual director, a coach, a mentor, uh, we can help. We know how difficult and time consuming that can be, but thankfully here at Restored, we're building a resource for you.

We're building a network of counselors.

It's just going to save you time and you're going to have confidence that, you know, you're finding someone who's competent, who's professional. And so how do you get on the wait list? Just go to restored ministry. com slash coaching and restored ministry. com slash coaching, or just click on the link in the show notes, fill out the form on that page.

And then once we find someone for you, then we'll connect you with them again, go to restored ministry. com slash coaching, or just click on the link in the show notes. And here's the quote from Teddy Roosevelt, titled The Man in the Arena. It goes like this. It is not the critic who counts. Not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or the doer of deeds could have done them better.

The credit belongs to the man who counts. Who is actually in the arena. Whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood. Who strives valiantly. Who errs. Who comes short again and again. Because there is no effort without error and shortcoming. But who does actually Strive to do the deeds who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at best knows in the end, the triumph of high achievement and who at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring.

Greatly so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat So good with that that wraps up this episode if you know someone who's struggling Because of their parents divorce or their broken family share this episode with them seriously feel free to take like 30 seconds now To message them if you want and in closing always remember you are not alone We're here to help you feel whole again and break that cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life, and keep in mind the words of C.

S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#107: Forgiving Someone Who’s Hurt You | John O’Brien

When trauma occurs, it causes you to ask big questions. That’s where my guest found himself after being brutally attacked, almost to the point of death, by people he was trying to help. 

In this episode, you’ll hear the story of the attack, plus he answers:

• Has forgiveness been difficult for you?

• Why forgive? What are the benefits? What happens if we don’t forgive?

• How do you forgive someone who has hurt you?

Take the podcast survey

Links & Resources

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• John O’Brein

  • Aquinas Forum

  • john@aquinasforum.org

• #058: Forgiveness: The Secret to Healing and Freedom | Fr. John Burns

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When trauma happens, whether it's someone dying or your family falling apart or any other type, it causes you to ask big questions. And that's where my guest found himself after being brutally attacked almost to the point of death by people that he was trying to help. In this episode, you'll hear him share that story of the attack.

Plus he answers questions like, how has the attack affected you over the years? Has forgiveness been difficult for you? Why forgive? What are the benefits? What happens if we don't forgive? And how do you forgive someone who has hurt you? Intense story, but good content. Keep listening.

Welcome to the Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parent's divorce, separation, or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. This is episode 107. We're thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast so helpful and even healing.

We've heard lots of feedback. One listener said, amazing five stars been looking for a podcast like this, finally found one that has helped me more. Then you'll ever know. Thank you. Another said, Surprisingly helpful, not what I expected. Five stars. They went on to say, I've always said that I'm okay. That what happened couldn't have changed who I was.

Of course it changed me. I still run away from many topics related to divorce, but listening to this podcast isn't like hearing from a bunch of psychologists tell me all the ways I'm really okay. It's much more helpful to hear that this is not okay, and it will never be okay. Lots more reviews like that that we don't have time to share right now, but we will in the future.

Again, we're so happy to hear that it's been so helpful. We do it for you. If you've ever had an idea, guest, topic, or any other advice to make this podcast better, we'd love to hear from you. To offer your advice, you can just take our podcast survey. On it, we ask questions like, how would you rate the podcast?

Of the options listed, why do you listen? Is the podcast length too long, too short, or just right? Should we add video? Should we change the format of the show? And other questions that'll guide you in giving your advice, which we really value. It does take five to ten minutes to complete it. But if you've benefited from this podcast, think of it as a way to help us in return.

It'll also come back to benefit you in two ways. One, it'll make the show even better for you. And two, if you fill it out by November 15th, you'll be entered to win a hundred dollar Amazon gift card. And so to offer your advice, it's really easy. Just go to restoredministry. com. Again, restored ministry, ministry is singular dot com slash survey.

Okay. Just answer the questions there, submit the form again, go to restored ministry.

My guest today is John O'Brien. John is the founder and executive director of the Aquinas Forum, a nonprofit organization based in Denver, Colorado, for faith formation and Catholic studies. He holds a bachelor's degree and master's degree in theology from Franciscan University of Steubenville and has taught faith formation to every age level.

Beginning as a high school theology and humanities teacher, he later became the director of faith formation for a flourishing parish in Denver, Colorado. During his tenure as a parish director of formation, part of his role included directing over 240 young adults in 25 small groups. He also started a monthly candlelight mass that continues nine years later and was a starting point for over 50 marriages, if you can believe that.

Uh, to help people grow in faith and develop a Catholic vision of life is the hallmark of all of his work. So obviously in this episode we talk about God, we talk about faith. If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening for a while knows that this podcast is not a strictly religious show.

And so wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge for you is this. Just listen with an open mind. Even if you skip or take out the God part, you're still going to benefit from this episode. With that, here's my conversation with John.

John, welcome to the show. So good to have you, man. Great to be here, Joey. I've been looking forward to this and let's dive right in. So, years ago you went through a very traumatic event. Yep. And I, I don't want to tell the story. I want you to tell the story. What happened there? Well, there's a lot to be said, but I just completed graduate school and got the master's in theology and wanted to begin a career in teaching at some point, but For the, for the present time.

I wanted to, uh, experience this opportunity that was presented to me. A few of my college friends were going out to a ranch in northwest Wyoming. It sounded really cool. I'd been, you know, just in the classroom forever. I was age 24. Lots of paper, lots of pens, computers, like, oh man, you spent some time in the west.

That sounds good. Mm-hmm. , the thing is, it was delinquent youth ranch and so that, that was a bit of a twist, but that sounded cool too 'cause I just wanted to go and help be a counselor. You know, just be with the kids, take care of them. Yeah, that's heroic. That's well, you know, it felt right, felt right for the time and kind of grow up experiencing maturity.

And when I got out there, though, I'm going to have to kind of keep this simple, I think, for the sake of our timing for the podcast, but you'll get the important elements. I'd only been there for two weeks. Again, it was a delinquent youth ranch. So the kids that were there were used to kind of relatively small crime.

Um, But, but some bigger, some, uh, some violence, some just kind of overdrinking, problematic child, terrible relationship with the parents. So the parents at some point, because the children are out of control, they'd have to, uh, force them to pack up and go to the ranch. Wow. Okay. So the kids didn't want to be there and one night, just two weeks into the, to my time at the ranch, they caught wind.

I was going to be the only counselor there that night. There were nine boys, middle teens, and the manager approved it. I didn't know what was going on cause I'd only been there for two weeks, but the manager approved it. I was the only guy there. Treat everything as a normal day. Uh, say a rosary before the campfire about 10 PM, put them down to sleep in their tent, all under the Wyoming high desert.

Wow. Beautiful area. So I put him in the tent, I get him in my sleeping bag, bed roll, not in the tent, just like under the stars, see the Milky Way, it's gorgeous, I was in a great mood, like I was looking forward to being out there for a year. One week later I wake up in the hospital, the intensive care unit.

Billings, Montana, and what happened was they waited until I fell asleep about 10 PM and then about 1130 They said we're gonna go through with the with with what we had planned So they had three options. The first one was to tie me up with a rope and their object is very simple I had a duffel bag next to me.

The truck keys were in the bag. So but I was in I was in the way So they're like, well, let's think of a way to get to take care of. Mr. Obi is what they called me Rob Ryan. And they said, well, let's think of a way we can take care of Mr. Obi and then take the keys of the truck and go. Wow. First option was tying me up with a rope, but they said, well, he's, he's, he's bigger than us.

And so if, if we get into trouble, that's not going to be good. Yeah. You're, you're for everyone who doesn't know what John looks like. He's a tall, strong dude. So yeah. Can't think of a joke. So I have to just kind of a lame guy But and so that was the first option just tie me up. They said that that there could be problems The second option was they could stab me, but they said well, that's too violent Then the third option they said and I had argued this is just as violent but take garden shovels try to knock me out Wow, so that's what they did They snuck out of the truck, or excuse me, they snuck out of the tent about 1130.

They picked up garden shovels that were nearby, um, we were doing some work earlier in the afternoon. We used the shovels for it. They pick up the shovels, they count to three, they've surrounded me, I'm asleep. And they pound my head and for eight to 10 hits, because there were five other boys right there during the, this whole scene, we have witness testimony, like minute to minute, you know?

And so one of the boys said, I think I heard eight to 10 hits. He told the detective and it sounded like, uh, it sounded like aluminum, an aluminum bat hitting rocks. And so that was me. Did you wake up through that? I did wake up, but I don't have any memory of it, so I didn't lose any consciousness during this experience, but I was knocked into shock, so I don't remember it.

Yeah. Thank God. Yeah. Seriously. Wow. So anyways, I'm on the sleeping bag, uh, kind of left for dead. One of the boys, uh, goes back to the other boys that were in the tent and said, you know, get out of here. Let's go hop in the truck. And they're all scared for the life, of course. So they do it. One boy not involved in the assault puts on his cowboy boots.

And runs like hell to the staff house. He saved my life. Wow. If it wasn't for him, if he would have thought more about his own safety than me, I would be in the great beyond. Wow. As you call it, Joey. The great beyond. So he runs, he gets help, but before they take off, this, this episode really haunted me in the first few years.

I was struggling with things. Um, he comes back from the truck just to kind of make sure, I don't know, I'm, uh, not dangerous for their plot. And I'm kind of sitting up in my sleeping bag. Yeah, bloodied and just just a wreck because the the assault immediately caused a skull fracture hand fracture a Subdural hematoma or a blood clot started forming on the brain and so I was out of it Well, he kneels down because I'm sitting on my bedroll just kind of dazed The other boy said and he he bends down kind of looks at my face looks my eyes And then takes a step back and just kicks me.

Bad scene. It's interesting. I've never gotten emotional about that scene. I have a little bit of a PhD, Joey, in disassociation. Fair enough. So, so that happens. And of course I'm, I'm out. They hop in the truck, they take off. They're caught later that night, right? By the Wyoming highway patrol. I'll talk very, very soon here about kind of their, what happened to them, but.

So I'm in the sleeping bag, about a half an hour later, uh, staff comes and gets help, uh, uh, rather. A half an hour later, staff comes, loads me up in a truck because they said the ambulance was not going to know where it is. Probably true. They take me by ambulance to a huge road in front of the ranch. An ambulance comes.

Then I'm airlifted to Billings, Montana. They call my mom. I'm airlifted to Billings, Montana, where there was a neurosurgeon in charge and just trying to gauge how I'm going to do. He calls my mom and dad and, uh, you know, they say, of course, talk to whatever you need to do. When he operates, he takes a three by three inch piece of skull out.

He puts it in the freezer to where it was going to be left for five months just to keep it safe as my, as my brain, right? Wow. As my brain swells down and as my brain tries to heal. And so they put me under a medical coma. I wake up five days later. Definitely brain injury. If, if for anyone who's experienced brain injury, they know, well, there's all sorts of stuff that can happen.

But one of the things is. You're, you really kind of start over at a young age. So just, I don't know if you're going to want to call it. Lack of focus, just, just, you're super, super young and on medicine. And so it was a time as a ramp up. I recovered for one year. I went home after two weeks and not in the hospital.

Wow. Um, I go home, started speech therapy, started physical therapy, had to walk on, uh, you know, the treadmills and take care of everything. And I was brain injured. So there's a little bit like. You're drunk. And so I'd say all sorts of inappropriate things, acute nurses and such, hopefully made him at least laugh.

And so recovered for a year and that, that was the physical part. And then the psychological part was much longer, but that's the basics. Uh, the boys were, they went to jail for a couple of years and uh, you know, got out and I know some of, some of them have had trouble, uh, who, you know, participate in the assault.

Those four boys, some of them continue to have trouble with the law. Uh, I'm hoping. A couple others are doing better. That's so good of you to say that. I know that must have taken a while for you to just want the best for them or maybe not. Maybe you're more heroic and virtuous than I am, but my goodness, man, that is, uh, that is intense.

Yeah. So many questions. Uh, I guess kind of fast forwarding a little bit more to what were the effects that followed you through that? You said there were a lot of psychological, I know the physical and sure mental and all that stuff. So just if you would outline it for us, how that affected you in the years that followed.

Yeah, well, you could think of it just as a, this is a way you should talk about it just as a tornado of problems because you had two things going on. You had, uh, the trauma, yes, right. How crazy that story was and how difficult and kind of the mystery of good and evil, which is very often accompanies trauma and that was a difficult thing.

But then on the other hand, I had the, the neuro. Psychological effects, or perhaps for the podcast, I should say, I had the physiological effects of the brain injury, which were very difficult. You're concretely irritability, sleep conditions, depression, kind of a OCD, kind of an obsessive mind about all sorts of things.

It felt like kind of my poor brain, if you will, is just like on fire. Whereas before it just kind of felt more healthy functioning and active, right? But now it's on fire. So any little thing, and for people who have experienced this, they know exactly what I'm talking about. So I had that. And then let's just throw in some disassociation depersonalization where you literally feel, it's kind of like you feel dizzy, but you're living in your daily life, but you, you feel like you're not real.

Or you feel like life's not real or you feel like every day is episodic. So I, I experienced about 10 years, my friend, just to, just to mention this in particular, I experienced 10, 10 years at least of, uh, cause it's been 18 years now experienced 18 years of deep, strong depersonalization. Of the gosh, I know I'm real, but it kind of doesn't even feel like that or the outside world.

And it kind of feels like you're like a, but 10, 000 miles above your head. It's very odd. Like an out of body experience. That's right. Wow. Okay. Yeah.

And that's just to mention the physiological. That's not the psychological, uh, well specifically that's not a whole lot of the psychological of trauma. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Forgiveness. Hope. Meaning all those things 100 percent and I know we're gonna hone in on that because there's so many ways we could take this conversation, but Oh on the OCD bet.

Yeah, that is such a Understated problem that a lot of people deal with I know I've went through my bouts of dealing with it and no people Who, uh, who deal with it. It's so debilitating. So that alone is enough. But one of the things that strikes me is your, from your story is that there's just so much, like you said, a tornado or an avalanche is another way to say it.

It's just like, it's just over overwhelming. So it's just amazing that you're standing here today. Like there's so many people I think would be tempted to just give up. Mm-hmm. . And so it's, it's beautiful that you're here and you've pushed through all that and yeah. You've become like an inspiration for so many people too.

So I wanna shift to forgiveness. Yes. Everyone listening here, you know, has been hurt in some way, and they might see some value in forgiveness. They might wanna forgive, but they struggle. They struggle to forgive for any number of reasons. Has forgiveness been difficult for you? Uh, yes and no. I think yes, in the sense that, you know, I, I knew Joey when I went out there for, to be a counselor at the ranch.

I knew they were. Delinquent youth, they, they were in a bad place in life and likely they were in a bad place of life because of decisions that at least to some degree were based on unjust things that happened to them to both hand, right? All of this is contextualized by both hand. If you're looking for an extreme or just a simple answer in any of this, uh, perhaps, you know, well, I don't want to talk to you.

Because reality, one famous Jesuit said, reality is like a strong red wine. It's not for children. There's a lot to it. So, it's nuanced. It's not the black and white that is so often made out to be, especially in like our media. Um, or anywhere in the world really. It's like, it's not, it's colorful. It's like detailed.

It's nuanced. So yeah, I appreciate you saying that. Absolutely. And so the forgiveness of the boys, believe it or not, was much easier than other aspects of forgiveness because I knew, you know, I knew they're in a bad place. I didn't know they were going to do that of course, but they simply wanted to be free.

They were used to a drug problem. Um, I think two of them, it came out, we're, we're pining for drugs at the time and In, in the mystery of what can only be called evil. This is what happens that when, you know, there's something in between me and my addictive, uh, object or whatever that might be. It's like, it's not personal, bro.

I have to take you out cause I need this. The object of my addiction, uh, the object of my vice, whatever that might be. And so I was just taken out. And so I did pray, but, and I think there's perhaps a grace in this, but I, um, I did, I did forgive them, completely forgive them. And I do still. The issue of forgiveness that I had, actually, I had more of an issue when it comes to forgiveness with people who were deeply faith based, like I was going out there Catholic.

And yet after this assault, especially people associated with the ranch who knew this could mean bad stuff legally, it's like they kind of took off their faith hat and put on their I want to protect my money hat and you talk about getting fired up for being an anger and resentment, forgiveness. Really struggled with big time and, and that, that took years that took years because I, I didn't know what to do with that here.

I was suffering so much, honestly, because of the brain injury and then the trauma and you know, I was a mess and yet I did start full time work less than a year after full time campus minister, full time teacher, prep school out in Southern California and for a brain injury victim like that to start full time work less than a year after.

And it was difficult when I thought about how the people at the ranch associated with the ranch responded to my situation, protecting their money more than Being there for me supporting me even even kind of as a person that was difficult I understand again both and I understand you're gonna have to protect your place or your your your job Legally, but also to support a person who's gone through something very difficult.

I think is important They didn't so that took a while. I'm glad to say that has been reconciled to but that that took a while Yeah, I bet and it makes sense It sounds like the kids would be even easier to forgive because you kind of had that expectation of them being rough around the edges and struggling in a lot of ways, coming from really rough backgrounds, having that dependence on substances and stuff like that.

Whereas with the, you know, people who are leading you or in management, whatever, you had somewhat of an expectation of like safety and caring for you. So it makes sense why that would be the case. I had expectations of a perhaps appropriate response from that situation and In my opinion, the way I received it, I was like, what the hell is going on here?

Interestingly, the person I struggled with most after that assault, and I have no problem sharing this, is God himself. You know, when he almost died, it was an 80 percent mortality rate. In today's day and age, people don't often in the, in the United States of America, in these days, they, they don't often experience physical pain as a result of being on mission.

I did. And so I couldn't relate to Jesuits or missionaries to the new world with the, with the native Americans who did not understand why they were there and they experienced martyrdom. Some of them, uh, as well as the old Jesuits in different countries. in Europe and in Asia. I couldn't relate to those guys.

I know they died because of their faith, but I was in a different situation. I was helping out on a ranch a yes, because of my faith. I wanted to help the boys, but also because I was in the U. S. And that doesn't happen. So I had a little conversation with God. One time I said, I'm going to have to know all of these things are real, what I believe in beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Right now I'm struggling so bad that I'm wondering, how can you let this happen? How can you let this happen? I had a master's in theology, so I kind of knew the theological answers, at least to a degree, but it was kind of the personal existential things of this is just not making sense. And also the witness of some of these people, the Catholics.

And because of my understanding of how they had responded to the situation, I was, I was pissed and I was thinking, well, this doesn't feel real. If they believe in what they believe, how are they responding this way? And it was more than just a couple of people. And so I said to God very directly, what's going on?

I'm going to have to search. I was reading in a journal just the other day written that same year of recovery. I said to God, this is dangerous because you're putting them in the dock. This time I was, I said, I will not believe if there is a very, doubt that started a long journey of how to deal with this.

And, and God, I remember showing my high schoolers in class for theology that scene out of Forrest Gump where Lieutenant Dan is up, you know, up on high in the ship and Forrest Gump is worried about him cause there's a huge storm. But Lieutenant Dan had some things to say to God. He said, you can't hurt me.

Something to the effect of you can't hurt me. What I do remember is you son of a. And I think that prayer looking back was just fine. I think that's a good prayer. In fact, and I shared with my high school students sometimes in life, that's the prayer you should pray if you really want to know God and his will.

It's certain times that's a prayer because it's so real. It's so like, this is what I'm going through and not meant to be like, you know, if you're a person of faith, like disrespectful to God, it's more like, Hey, I'm struggling here. Like this is what I'm actually going through. I could put on a mask and pretend I'm not.

That's right. It's a lot of people do. I can be like super pious and everything on the exterior looks good. But interiorly, I'm just like so broken and struggling. That's exactly right. And I had to hold two principles. I had to hold the principle of fake it until you make it. To a degree, that's like the most practical advice we can hear in life.

And that is not being fake. That is putting one foot in front of the other to live a relatively productive life in the midst of going through difficulty. And then the other thing is holding this tension of God and daily life. By no means a simple thing, especially with the psychological struggles I was having, cause it took about five years after that assault just to simmer down that brain to, to, I would call still a, a high octane level, but it didn't feel as much like it was on fire.

And everyone who has had a brain injury can relate to this. Or if you've been the family member of a brain injured person. Yeah, no, that makes so much sense. Yeah. I think of like Navy SEALs who have TBI or like go through the traumatic brain injury, like that stuff. It's like, it's real. It's man, it's a whole world that I don't understand fully, but through your experience, it's um, super instructive and wow, that's a, it's a heavy cross.

And one thought on that is there were many years, right? Cause this is a many year journey recovery. It will be a, just a journey of one of a difficult thing I experienced in my life for the rest of my life. But there were many years of acute years of difficulty. Many times I kind of wish that I could have at least been part of a kind of banner.

Brothers, uh, seals certainly can have made it as a seal. Me neither, uh, but Air Force. I could have done Air Force , uh, or a different branch because at least then I would've had some kind of fellowship with people who had gone through it, or professionals who were there for like this huge group. I just felt very alone.

Because, you know, I did solicit help for the brain in psychology and they were helpful, but I was still walking that path alone. Wow. That was hard. Yeah. That's so isolating and so hopeless at times, honestly. Yes. So tempted to despair. I'm sure I've been there. Oh yeah. About 5 PM every day after my first year of teaching, I'd think, okay, this is a suboptimal situation recovering from this injury.

So experiencing effects in this job is a lot to deal with. So, brother in law. Where's the scotch? Yeah. I hear you. And I'm living with them. Yeah. Yeah. It um, it makes sense that we cope with pain in the ways that we do, even if they're not healthy. Like it's not something we want to continue doing, but I totally like, I get why people do that.

I get why I've done that struggle with vices in the past where it's like, yep, they, they serve a purpose. They're not good for us, but they serve a purpose and hopefully we can break free and find a healthier alternative. But uh, but yeah, I totally get why. Why we go down that path. That's right. And I like how you said that, that it makes sense.

And I would say actually it's natural as a Thomas Aquinas man, uh, started a nonprofit called the Aquinas Forum. I'm, I'm obsessed with Thomas Aquinas because more than anyone, a Dominican friar from the 1200s. Help my how my life get into that later if you want, but yeah, he's all about faith and reason and he's gonna say that if someone is deeply struggling, they are consciously aware that they want to feel healthier, right?

But then the question becomes what good am I seeking for that health? And he makes a distinction between real and apparent goods. So in that situation, uh, a scotch, uh, hanging out with my brother in law, a scotch, it's effects on the brain. It tastes good. It calms you down. Uh, good times of the brother in law.

That seems like a great good. And perhaps one day it is. That's awesome. The meaning of, of alcohol Aquinas says is festivity. So that's good. That's a purpose. That's good. Fine. But as it relates to a brain injury, it's not a true good. It's not a real good at all. It's going to be an apparent good. Wow. And that's kind of the drama of the moral life is, am I choosing real goods or apparent goods?

And it took me a while to get back on the train of real goods. Rather than just kind of quick fixes are going to make me feel better. But for people who are going through addiction or battling vices, it's a healthy psychological principle. I believe to realize there's a reason you're doing this loneliness, brain injury, hurt.

depression, uh, stress from job, whatever the vice is, it's, it's almost always going to be an apparent good to help you. And so the realization is you're, you're not weird for wanting health and trying to find something or, or experiencing something that does help you makes you think it's helping. But the reality of it is we want to be moving more towards those real goods.

Yeah, and things that are going to help in the long run, not just in the short term, not be like a quick fix. And yeah, I know for me as a teenager, it was pornography. That was my drug of choice. And, uh, it did, it helped me in the moment. It almost sounds scandalous to say that, but it's true. It served a purpose, but it was making me miserable.

And so I knew I needed to get that out of my life and I did thankfully, but yeah, I recognize now looking back, it's like, yeah, it did. It served a purpose and I wish I didn't fall into that, but. But yeah, I was in a very rough spot. There's a reason why you did it. Loneliness, what have you, you, and then you experience this and it draws you in to another world.

It would be actually a false ecstasy. And then when this takes over you, there's a, like, this is what I experienced. You think, what kind of person am I with all these vices must be some kind of a monster. Yeah. Because. So to speak of us takes over you. It literally does, but it feels like almost like another power.

And like you said, say, well, this was just the wrong decision. It, an Irish priest wants to find sin to me as it seemed like a good idea at the time. You know, everyone can relate to that. Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And I love where you're pointing people. It's like there's a, maybe, maybe one way to say it is like there's a little bit of a monster inside of us.

that like acts out at times, but we're both the good and the bad in the sense that, you know, if we choose to do bad, like that doesn't fully define us. Like there's a reason that we're doing that. We should stop doing that and do the good. Um, but there's a reason we go in that direction. And if you shame yourself thinking like that, I just don't just do bad.

I am bad. Then the chance of you like coming back from that is like. Greatly diminished. But if you can see yourself as like, I'm both the vices and the virtues that I hold, I'm both. And I want to reduce the vices and increase the virtues. But if I want to pretend I'm just the virtues or say like I'm limited to just these vices, then I'm going to be debilitated and probably give up and just live a horrible life.

Yep. That's right. Let's go back to forgiveness. Let's do it. Someone say it's easier not to forget. It's too much hard work. It's too difficult. So the question really is to someone, especially in this position right now, like they're, they've been hurt. They kind of feel like they should forgive or they've heard they should forgive, but they're not really compelled to do that because it's so painful.

Why forgive? What are some of the benefits that you've experienced or you've thought of, or you've learned from Aquinas about forgiveness? Well, first of all, you know, there's a sense in which there's a, there's a great dignity that should be given to someone who's gone through something very, very difficult.

You know, Pope John Paul II, one of my heroes, he writes this about suffering, that suffering is uniquely your own. Right. Hopefully that does not turn us into narcissists who kind of use that as a, is like a victim mentality and have a, like a flag over your head of look at me. No one understands me.

Although that is a feeling. Yeah. But I would say to that person, okay, fair enough. That's what you feel like is going to be a lot of work and sounds like you're an intense chapter in your journey. But, but let me ask you this question. Is it worth it? Is it worth the work? If you have a thousand pound stone on your back that we call resentment and hurt and you have a bridge that you can walk over.

That is a bridge such that that thousand pound rock will take off you does that sound appealing to you? Yeah, compared to just walking around in this valley with a thousand pound brick because I think the effect of unforgiveness and and hurt resentment bitterness makes it worth it to pursue a kind of alleviation of that rock.

So it was very practical. You know, I, I like to be a reality guy more than anything in the world. Please God. Very practically speaking, if you're struggling with unforgiveness about something big, you have a huge rock in your shoulder. And it helps when someone comes up to you who has a 500 pound rock or a thousand, perhaps a 10, 000 pound rock.

And I've met a couple of those people. And at one point they had that rock in their shoulders, but they don't anymore. And here I was at the thousand pound rock. It said, can we have a chat? Wow. So very practically I would say, I love that. And I want to continue on that road for a second. Yep. Yeah, just playing out like that resentment, like we don't really often think about like, well, what happens if you don't forgive?

How is that holding you back in life? Because that might feel like the default position. And so aside from resentment, and feel free to go deeper into that, what else do you think happens if we don't forgive? How does that damage us? Because we kind of think of it as not forgiving damages the person who hurt me.

But I've heard it said that not forgiving someone is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. Yeah, I think that's right. And again, the person I needed to forgive was God. That sounds so presumptuous. It's crazy. But you know what? That was real for me. Yeah. I'm a bit of a black and white guy at times of, okay, either this faith or my faith is true all of it, uh, or perhaps none of it.

Either God is control of everything. Because he's God so presumably he would be or or it's not it's the opposite So, you know if he isn't there if he isn't control of if he is not there He is not in control of everything. And so it's a total shit show It's total chaos and that's a trauma feels like that's what unforgiveness Can feel like because of the hurt that you're that your experience has caused And so with forgiveness and unforgiveness, again, that, that's a question that is, that follows a terrible experience, a bad experience.

What I want to focus on, uh, in my life and, and back then is the experience itself. It's kind of like, how do I process this experience? And then that dictates is forgiveness reasonable, is it not? If, if I would propose if God is not real, if he's not in control of all of this, including moral laws. A bad experience may be unfortunate for you, you feel pain, but it's not violating some ultimate moral law and everything is absolute chaos and contradiction.

That's a suboptimal place to be in life, feeling that. It's a heavy place to be, but, um, but if on the other hand that there, there's been an experience of reality in your life that is causing such a pain and this gets your question now. It's, it's a, it's a thousand pound rock you're carrying. It's a disease.

It's, it's, it feels like another person. You're another person right now. And so who the hell cares about forgiveness right now? You're conscientious and I was conscientious of this is not good. This is not a good feeling to have. This is not a good place to be. It feels like life itself is a prison. And so forgiveness is a possibility to help out with that situation.

And it did me. It did me, I'll, I'll tell you why, because, because forgiveness is a way out of that to some degree. But, but I want, I want to stop there because that answers your question. Yeah. I would not say it's unforgiveness. That is the, the main issue. The main issue is going to be the experience you had, 100 percent and the pain that led to and forgiveness is, is a healthy way out.

I hear you. Not the only bit. Hey. Yeah. No, I hear you. And I think some people hear about forgiveness and they actually think that they need to jump to that prematurely. Yup. It's actually something that happens like later in the healing process, if we want to call it that. That's not something that happens right away.

And I want to get into like the steps of healing, which I know they're not totally linear, but But I think there are some good principles that we can crack into, but it's like the word you just said a few minutes ago, it's nuanced. It's not other levels. Yeah, totally. But I think it's actually harmful to try to forgive too soon.

And, uh, one of the steps that are the principles that I've heard about forgiveness is truly understanding like the cost, like what it's, the ways in which you were damaged, uh, not to remain a victim forever. I love that you brought up the victim mentality thing, because I think we all could be tempted to that, but to, uh, to truly move beyond it, to close that chapter in your life and to move on, not that it will never come up again, but that you're, you know, in a better, stronger spot, you're able to move forward.

So if someone came up to you now and said. John, there's someone who really harmed me. I want to forgive them. I just have no clue how to go about that. What would you say? What advice would you give them? It's interesting, you know, it's been 18 years I get a, get a little emotional about that question because it's a powerful one.

The first thing I'd say to that one is if a person came up to me and asked me that first step is Let's grab a cup of coffee. I want to hear about your story. I call it swapping stories. Because it's a light way in. If someone's gone through something very difficult, I don't like to get into solution mode, solutionize them.

I like to say, dude, let's get together. Let's swap some stories. Um, within the context of that story, I think it would unfold itself, the pain, the difficulty, the hurt, and then that how forgiveness might be one of their main hangups to prevent freedom because unforgiveness, it's a grasping. It's kind of a false grasping in my experience.

Kind of a false control. You think, well, I've been hurt and I'm not going to be hurt again by whatever you, the other person thinks and intends or what have you. It can be even a kind of paranoia. So within that context, I try to find out where, where they're at and then perhaps skipping ahead, perhaps not, but I would try to share from my own experience and then ultimately pointing to reality that.

As difficult as the things are that we can experience, life is greater than that. Life is much greater than that. And I think forgiveness is typically associated with zooming in on something that seems to be all encompassing. And yet, if we can take a step back, and this is the importance of story and sharing your story, feeling like someone else freaking cares.

You can see kind of a bigger Vista, if you will, a bigger landscape and that that's hope. So Unforgiveness, I think is very much tied to hope like screw this screw that it's resentment mode. It's bitterness mode Whereas if you see a greater landscape of okay, this is a difficult thing I have to deal with and and the resentment unforgiveness I have But now at least I can see a greater reality that, that, that life may offer me an experience of joy and happiness that I could not experience if I keep zoned in on this terrible thing.

Okay, that makes so much sense. And I love that idea too, that you allude to, of when people hurt you, you rightly feel that they owe you some sort of a debt. I think that's right. Yeah, and so Unforgiveness, I guess, would look like demanding that debt in some way and I want to be careful here. In some situations, it's very important that person does pay the debt.

It's important that those, in my opinion, that those kids went to prison. Yes. Like they needed to. But... Um, that's not up to you to impose that punishment. It's up to a third party law enforcement to impose that so that you're free then to release them of any further debt that they might owe you. And so that's the act of forgiveness, but it's not easy and it's not linear and it's messy.

And I, yeah, I've been there. There can be things that you really hold on tightly. You want to forgive, but it's like, I just can't let this go at this point in my life. And if I, if you're there listening right now, I would say that's okay. Yep. Like, don't, don't force it. Like, you can keep working towards that, but it's not something that maybe you're ready to do right now.

Maybe there's some initial, like John's advising you on, like, maybe there's some initial steps that you need to be taking, like going deeper into your story. Having someone who's there just listening to you, walking with you, which will then free you to get rid of that resentment, to forgive and free that person of that debt that they owe you.

Anything to add? I, I think that's right. I think there's a lot, there's a lot there. I think everything you said is true. I also think that the biggest kind of principle for me going through all this was one thing. What is really real? What the F is real here? Because if I know it's real, then I can understand.

My terrible experience, I can understand people's responses. I can understand even my own, uh, interior world kind of according to that. If things are real, if, if you will, if things are stable and then if I can kind of seek to live a life in communion with ultimately what's real rather than get caught up in what I call kind of the, um, the, the spider web.

Above my brain of trying to connect all the pieces. And I did that for five years, if you will. I got a master's degree in that. And, uh, I said that master's degree sucks because it does not work. You're just chasing everything up in the spider web compared to asking that more fundamental, admittedly abstract question.

What is really real real? Because I think there's an answer. And when you, when someone knows what's really real and they live according to that. They, they know or they think that there is a pattern of reality, there are signposts. Within which we can contextual our contextualize our lives and everything we do and there's at least a sense of Okay, things are okay at root, but one of the worst things about trauma I think the worst is that it changes your understanding of everything whereas you feel like the cosmos itself It's spinning whereas if you ask that question, what is really real you take A slow journey to your point of understanding that then everything becomes contextualized unforgiveness.

Um, resentment, spite, bitterness, even depression. You can say, okay, this is an issue. This is very difficult in my life, but it's not what is most really real. And so I at least have a little bit of time and there's a sense of like, okay, I'm okay for now. I have a journey, there's lots ahead, but I'm okay. You know, I'm at least two degrees safe because I know that reality is safe.

Well, that's, that was a worse for me. It felt like reality itself wasn't safe. Yeah. Can I imagine like watching your back constantly? That's right. Even to this day, uh, every week, once or twice a week, I will, for some reason, it's a gas stations when I'm. Filling up my car or at the, at the counter buying a, a soda, I will feel like, like if someone's behind me just automatically not, not conscientiously or uncon it's, it's unconscious, but I will feel like someone's going to come over me and hit me on the head and kind of, kind of the, the, the feeling of shutters, you know, in the body.

And that, I mean, that's been going on Joey for 18 years and. It's not about a control experience. I still in control to this point. I think, okay, well, there it is again. Just experienced like 0. 5 seconds of terror. My goodness, but it was 0. 5 seconds, you know, and it's not real. Yeah, right.

Yeah. I think lots of people can relate to that kind of an experience. Yeah, man, that's intense. And thank you for sharing so vulnerably throughout this whole interview. Um, you are very real and what are some maybe myths or misunderstandings about forgiveness that you've observed that are like really, really unhelpful that you want to warn people against?

Yeah. I would say the first one and the most annoying is perhaps the cheesy cheesy. Or cliche, Christian one, including all forms of Christian. I happen to be Catholic. And so, you know, I'm Christian. And so, so a response of like, if someone says, do you forgive them? Say, absolutely. With a certain kind of tone of voice and kind of whisper.

And you say, really, man, and I want to punch these people. Um, But really, I don't because you know what they're trying to do? They're trying to do the best they can on their own journey. Yeah. It's more about them than about you at that point. It is. And, um, you know, okay, that's how they're dealing with. But the issue is, again, you just mentioned that word real and it's not real, you know, the act of the will.

Of forgiving and I like to get into that kind of, we need to define forgiveness. Please. That office is not defined and it's terrible. Great. Because if you're trying to do something that you don't know what the hell it is, that's not good. Cause you won't do it. Cause you don't know what it is. How would you?

Yeah. It's like. Well, I need to get healthier, but I have no idea what healthy is. And so I'm obsessing all day long about being healthy, but I don't know what it is. So I have to lean on my man, Thomas Aquinas, and I'm going to paraphrase him. If there are any expert Thomas out there, please forgive me, uh, for paraphrasing this.

But I read at one point is lightning bolt of clarity for me that he said, forgiveness has to do with. Seeing the other person as more than the harm that they've inflicted and seeking to love the wholeness of who that person truly is, rather than that experience of them inflicting harm. So good. Right.

And that comes from, uh, 800 years ago because the real is really real. It doesn't change folks, people in ancient Greece. Now it's the same humanity. Human nature is constant, doesn't change. And so forgiveness has always been possible since the dawn of human history. And so step one is understanding, okay, this is what that is.

Now the next thing becomes, am I going to buy an act of the will alone is the important principle here. Am I going to lean into that? And it indeed is a lien. I am a big fan of forgiveness as a journey. It truly is. It is not a journey of emotions. In fact, essentially, emotions has nothing to do with it.

It's an act of the will. A good principle in that, I was just thinking, if you're waiting for your emotions, if you're waiting to feel like you want to forgive the person, in a sense, like, you're going to be waiting forever. That's right. You'll be waiting forever. Yeah, that, that doesn't work. And we are in a hyper emotional culture, hyper emotional.

Now I'm a passionate guy. I've got Irish, uh, got Irish blood. John Slattery O'Brien, fairly Irish name. And so boy, I got that. That is difficult blood to have when you're going through these experiences. But I would say silver lining of my entire experience has been I have learned the relationship between emotion and will, emotion and intellect and will or, or decision, right?

And the re, the relation of all that to happiness. And, and I've learned that you can be living an objectively happy day and kind of good day. An order day and still feel like a wreck and that, you know what, that's actually pretty cool because at least there's peace because peace is a coin that says is the tranquility of order.

Peace is not some emotion, essentially, it's a tranquility of order and we feel that, right? And so, as it relates to forgiveness, if we make this decision to forgive and to grow in that forgiveness, we are choosing to see that person as more than just their, their harm, their evil. And because that's true, we can have the experience of a little bit more order in our souls, in our minds and wills, according to what's really real, right?

Rather than, okay, I'm going to focus in on the harm, the inflicted, and it's going to be the only thing I see. And it's going to make me just, just a bitter, unpleasant person. Well, a, that's. That sucks. B, it's actually not accordance with reality as much as seeing the person for who they are as a whole. And so, that's where it begins.

If people don't know the definition... Like abstractly, we still know what it is kind of enough, uh, but it does help to get into what it is per se. So we begin that journey with the will. And then all of a sudden, you know, we do is I think, you know, is what I experienced. We become a little bit more integrated because we're seeing the whole, you know, think of just the most bad military person you've ever met or firefighter or doctor or cop.

They have seen everything. And you know what? You go up and talk to them about it like, man, what have you experienced that you've seen? And it's just been a nightmare. And they're like the chillest people on earth. They see reality more than more than they would if they're just zoned in on that one particular experience.

I want to be very clear. Again, there's a both hand, both hand. Yeah. It's not some simple answer that clears everything up. The good news is, is that. The real is really real and we can seek to live in accordance with that with reality and then we Become in time. It's journey of integration a better scenario a better kind of place to be on the journey I would say then sitting in your home obsessing about how much you hate this person.

Yeah. There's so much freedom there and kind of leaving that behind is, you know, when I share these things become a, because I'm a pretty philosophical guy. I am concerned that it's a little bit over the top abstract. What's, what's your sense of that right now? No, no, I think it's helpful and I think maybe being a little bit more general is helpful because then people can fill in the blanks, you know.

I think that's right. Uh, I like general. I think that's a good word because general again relates to that sense of reality, like reality is bigger than we make it. And the important thing is to gather principles for this and to, and. We're not alone and there are principles and reality is big and then there's hope.

Yeah. So you don't need to be a philosophy just nerd like I am to, to, to want to go on these things. They think the important thing is in some sense, even better is to just have a kind of on the ground understanding of these principles. So good, man, this has been so enlightening. I've learned a lot from you in this interview and I appreciate your time And just if people want to go deeper and learn more about Aquinas about what you offer.

Tell us about your nonprofit What do you guys actually offer and how does it benefit people? That's right So I have a nonprofit called the Aquinas forum started three and a half years ago, and it's very simple It's an independent nonprofit that helps people grow in faith and, uh, develop a Catholic worldview.

Uh, it's all about faith and reason, the relationship between faith and reason, which is constitute a lot of our chat here, because it's easy to live based on only faith, we call that fideism. Not paying enough attention to the here and the now the order of nature of reality or to live only off of reason which is going to be rationalism and Because there's a relatively because there's a clear limit to our reason that is not going to give nearly as much kind of hope and Greater view of the landscape of reality or even what it could be if you don't have Faith and so both of these alone, I would say Are not ideal.

Whereas if you integrate these things, that boy, that's a, that's a beautiful life. Again, my hero, Pope John Paul, the second said, faith and reason are like two wings upon which the human soul ascends to the mystery of God. You know, that's good. Yeah. And it's real. And so I started this nonprofit to help people grow on that.

I worked at a parish for a number of years. I felt like I learned some of the skills to do this. So, so to speak, I had a product to offer, started this nonprofit. We do different things locally conferences, books, studies, classes, but then I've also opened up this wing through my website. That we offer people free resources for small groups.

Nice. The how to guide for leaders or hosts, as well as the studies themselves written by some great authors. And it's, it's actually helping people to what, to grow on what's really real scripture, little bit of philosophy. Uh, we have Bible studies up now and it's good stuff and the hope is, well, the hope is hope in a sense, wherever you are on the journey, that the real is really real and that there is hope ahead.

There are good things ahead, and they're actually good things right now for your life. Love it. Yeah. And so whether someone's maybe been on some sort of spiritual journey for a while, they can join, or if someone's in the beginning of it and just like questioning things, they're welcome as well. Is that right?

That's right. So locally we have things where people can come and they can come from any faith background or none. Uh, because Thomas Aquinas, it's the Aquinas Forum, he is all about. He was all about one question and that's this what is God and so Through reason and faith he explored that and so we have lots of people that come that are just kind of seekers Yeah, you know, what is this?

Is there anything to this? And that's good. And in time, we're starting to open up other Aquinas forums throughout the country. We have two that are about to open and that's why I named it forum. It's a forum where people of any faith or the Catholic faith or no faith can come and explore the deeper questions of life.

And then also the small group, the small group initiative we have through the website that helps people do that in what I call their own corners of the world. So living room. Thank you. A tavern, whatever. Love it. Yeah. I love that. You're facilitating that and guiding it. That sounds amazing. Uh, how can people find you online?

Uh, Aquinasforum. org. Just go and check us out. You can find the email there, uh, the info email that will come to us or, uh, your, your, I can give my email now, my Aquinas Forum. Yeah. Are you open to people contacting you? Absolutely. No. I love to chat with people on the journey because, uh, candidly, that's what I was looking for for years.

Again, kind of a unique experience, faith experience I had on the ranch, trauma, but then also brain injury that that's, that's quite the intersection of things to go together. And I just wanted someone to chat with and swap stories. Eventually found one or two is great. So I'm, I love to do that now with, with other people.

And you know what I like to say, and I've found this is a great principle of freedom for other people as it has for me is this, uh, there's no red bow if, if we go through something terrible in this life. There, there, it's okay that there's not necessarily going to be a big red bow you put on top of it of like, this is why it happened and this is what it means in a holistic sense.

Trauma, it's intuitively bigger than that. That's why we have to ask the question, is there an afterlife? Because as Plato said, injustice will not be corrected in this world. I mean, Hitler killed how many millions of people, right? That's, that per se cannot be corrected in this world. But in the afterlife, through justice, and through how God deals with all of this, and including the victims of what they've gone through, we have great hope, for different reasons, that this can be reconciled.

And so, just want to help people with that. Try to offer some initiatives that can slowly, uh, including me meeting up with people. We won't talk about a red bow But we will talk about some principles. I think that can lead to greater freedom Happiness really? Yeah. No, that's so good. We all want to be happy and No, I love what you said and I love that you're so open and so generous with your time.

I appreciate you offering that. Yeah, I'm happy to. This has been a great treat. Yeah, and everyone listening right now, if you're just wrestling with those big questions or maybe you've never thought about those, um, I would say you are worth seeking answers to those questions. Like you deserve that. You deserve asking those big questions and finding answers and this is one resource that you can use.

to do that. So how can people contact you if they, yeah, so again, it's Aquinas forum. org is going to be my website. And then my personal email through the forum is John J J O H N at Aquinas forum. org. A Q U I N a S isn't Sam forum. org. Love to hear from you. Beautiful. And we'll throw that in the show notes.

So you guys can just copy and paste that as well. Want to give you the final word here. What final advice? Encouragement challenges would you offer to everyone listening, especially those listening right now who feel very stuck because of the trauma they've endured in their lives. Like what would you leave them with?

Keep moving forward. Keep moving forward. For 10 years of my life, I felt like such a wreck and I would consider man. You know, in a sense, what, what would be the greatest encouragement I could hear right now because there are so many questions and thoughts and feelings floating around that, you know what I wanted?

I wanted someone to say, John, uh, the most valiant thing you can do right now is keep keep moving forward. Put one foot in front of the other on this road to greater health. Because there are answers and I felt like that was the greatest thing I could do and wherever you are, whatever you're going through, if you are putting one foot in front of the other and you're moving forward, even if that's so slow.

You want to take bigger steps, but you can only take a small step. That's what you have control of, and that's where you can find heroism.

If you want more content, more guidance on the topic of forgiveness, I highly recommend episode 58 of the show. I spoke with an expert who did his PhD dissertation actually on forgiveness, lots of great advice in that episode. Again, that's episode 58, or you can just click on the link in the show notes.

Quick reminder that if you'd like to offer your advice on how to make the podcast even better, just go to restoredministry. com slash survey, answer the questions there and submit the form. Again, restoredministry. com slash survey, or just click on the link in the show notes. And if you do that by November 15th, you'll be entered to win a hundred dollar Amazon gift card.

That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Honestly, once it's over, just take 30 seconds to share this episode. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#103: How Does Your Body and Brain React to Trauma? | Patricia Scott, LPC, PhD Candidate

What happens inside your brain and your body when you endure trauma?

Surprisingly, there’s actually a predictable way that your body and mind responds to trauma. In this episode, we break down each response with a trauma therapist. We also discuss:

• How her parents’ divorce impacted her

• Is healing trauma even possible? If so, what does it take to heal?

• How to apologize the right way

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  • 101 Questions to Ask Before You Get Engaged | H. Norman Wright

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

What happens inside your brain and your body. When you endure trauma, it might surprise you. But there's actually a really predictable way that your body and your mind responds. And in this episode, we'll break that down. We'll break down each reaction with a trauma therapist. We also discuss how her parents' divorce impacted her. We asked the question is healing trauma even possible. And if so what does it take to heal it? We touched on some really interesting facts about human development too. It's really important stuff to know if you want to heal and grow and thrive in life. We even discussed parenting and this stuff is relevant even if you're not a parent or you won't be for the next 10 years and how to apologize the right way and finally share for some encouragement and advice to anyone who feels broken and stuck in life. So, keep listening. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation or broken marriage so you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host Joey Panelli and this is episode 103. My guest today is Patricia Scott. She is a licensed professional counselor certified in trauma therapy and a phd candidate at Ducane University in counselor education and supervision. She graduated from Franciscan University of Steubenville with her master's degree in Clinical mental Health Counseling and from Argos University with a master's degree in sport and exercise, psychology. Prior to that, she completed her bachelor's degree in psychology, philosophy and theology at Franciscan University. You heard that right? A triple major. She served as an adjunct professor of psychology and social work at Franciscan University and adjunct faculty member at Ducane University. After treating clients as a therapist, she now works on the management side of a counseling practice as the director of data management and analytics. Petty loves to play volleyball, spend time with her family and close friends and most of all play with her nieces. Uh she lives in Boulder Colorado with her dog, Mr Darcy. So Patty is brilliant if you can tell and that's a good friend of mine. I'm just so excited for you to learn from her. Uh In this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And so if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening to this podcast for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast. So wherever you're at, glad you're here. And if you don't believe in God, my challenge to you, is this just listen with an open mind even if you skip or take out the God parts. You're still gonna benefit a lot from this episode. And since we recorded this in person too, you might hear her dog in the background. So just be aware of that. Here's our chat, Patricia. Welcome to the show. Thank you or Patty. I might refer to you as Patty. It's really good to have you. I wanted to have you on the show for a while and as we usually do on the show, let's just dive right in. How old were you when your parents separated and divorced? I was a junior in college when it officially happened. And I say officially, I found out my sophomore year of college, my mom had told me that her intention was to wait until my younger brother went to college to divorce my dad. So I knew a whole year ahead of time. So it officially happened once my younger brother was a freshman. So that would be my junior year of college. Was that kind of a burden? It was, it was, um, I was thinking about, I was reflecting on that today and just thinking, you know, what are the reasons I felt like I could have said something. I should have said something and really it comes down to just a few scenarios. Either I tell this important information and things get worse because he didn't know or I tell him he makes an effort or they both make an effort. Things get better or I tell him and I see that he makes no effort and it's heartbreaking. Um But either way I felt like being told that before it happened, put a lot of pressure to build an alliance to my mom because it was this big thing that I was told not to say anything. So having to hold on to that, I think it, it did burden me and pressured me into an alliance that I didn't want to have any alliance. I mean, they're my parents. I love them equally and that's not my information to hold. It's not my information to know. So no, that's difficult. And you know, I could see from your mom's perspective, too kind of want to prepare you. But at the same time, it's yeah, there is a burden to carry around both and the aspect of wanting to inform your dad. But also probably your brother too, knowing that kind of they were waiting for him to kind of move out and that's a lot to carry. So, ok, and I got the impression that I was the only one who was told, I'm not sure. So I'm not sure if I was being told to prepare me for it or if I was being told because she wanted to tell somebody and your child is just not the appropriate person to tell. So true. I'm glad you said that because I think there are a lot of parents listening to who are going through a lot of messiness in their marriages and trying to figure out what to do next. And I think it's important to remember that Children are not meant to be emotional confidants or not meant to kind of fill the role of a spouse or even to become a parent. And it's so easy to do. Like I get why it's done, but it's so damaging, especially when you play that out over years, like ruins, the relationship creates a really unhealthy dynamic and it becomes really sad. I've seen situations where the kids just don't want to talk to the parents at all years later. And it's how sad. It's almost as if every conversation is approached with a new hesitancy because you don't know if this is going to become a conversation about you and dad or you and mom, you just don't know. So it feels like every conversation is all of a sudden unsafe to have because it's so easy because you, you shared a life with these people. This is your family and the simplest of things is not doing the dishes or not doing the preferred way or not cleaning your room. You just never know what can lead to a conversation. Oh, I remember your mom or your dad let you do this and everything can turn so quickly. Yeah. No, I hear you. And we must develop these multiple personalities in the sense that we need to be one person around, like dad, one person around mom, one person around like maybe certain relatives or friends. And it can be really challenging to juggle all that. I know, man, there's so many heartbreaking stories of kids who literally had to juggle their lives between two homes and then everything else that comes along with that like bringing different bags to school and all that good stuff. So it's not good stuff. it's heavy stuff and uh yeah, it's, it's tragic, but I'm glad you said you love your parents because I know, um there's sometimes people get the impression that if you speak honestly about what you've been through that somehow you're putting them down or condemning them or saying that you don't love them. But I, I usually kind of cheekily ask, you know, do you hate your parents? And you already answered the question? And that's, yeah, it's, you know, we love our parents. Um, but in order to, I think to, to heal and grow, we need to be honest about what we've been through and we can do that in a way that still honors them. I am, I think the love I have for them has deepened in a sense because I've seen them, they've become more human and as I've grown older, I understand what it means more to be human and to be fallen. So I think being able to reflect on that each year, not that I make an active effort to reflect on each year but each year, like, you know. Yeah, exactly. There's, you know, it always comes up in some way it comes up or I think about it or a conversation happens and it just, that gets brought up. So, seeing more of their humanness and growing up and understanding nobody is perfect. So still it doesn't invalidate the good things they did. As a parent it doesn't take away or make worse the negative things that happened. It just makes it more human and making it more human is really humbling to see myself progress as a fallen human. So it's almost as if I understand them a little bit better and I not that I sympathize or I have compassion for it. I don't think I ever would and I don't think, I think it's ok to not just seeing it, their humanness helps me grow in love for them. No, that's beautiful and no, I could say, you know, being married and having a baby girl and you know, being a parent, it definitely opens your eyes more to you definitely can understand what your parents were going through. But at the same time, you can still kind of hold that standard up and say like no, what happened was damaging. It was difficult, it was in some cases even wrong. Yeah, you can say both of those things at the same time. So I'm curious how did all that affect you, we talked a little bit about it. But how did that play out in, you know, the years that followed? Honestly, I think there was some of God's grace at work in the timing of it, even though I found out as a sophomore and I didn't want to know that initially, it did make me more angry and anytime I would come home during that year and I was, I was more anxious because I was just waiting to find out that papers had been presented or there have been discussions with lawyers finding things out, just waiting to have this burden lifted from me. I do think there was graces in it though. I think waiting until the last kid was out of the house and in college was a smart choice. So even though you're going to do this monumental, you know, damaging thing, having an appropriate sense of timing or respect for the development of your Children and you know, with the timing of it, I think makes a difference. And so we were out of the house, we didn't have to see what happened. So I didn't, I don't know what happened on a day to day basis. None of us did because even though they were living in the same house and they were going through this divorce, none of the kids were there in the house. Now we all saw what led up to it. So when we heard the divorce, you know, I was like, oh, well, that makes sense. Like finally kind of thing. So I do think there were some graces. I, I can see that I was definitely angry and anxious. I, I think that was more leading up from a sophomore year when I found out it was going to happen to when it actually did happen and then when it did happen, I felt a big sense of relief just not because it was happening, but because I didn't have to hold that information anymore. So after that, I think I more felt a sense of relief and I was curious to know how things would happen. Whose house would I be coming home to for Christmas or Thanksgiving? You know, I didn't know that information yet and it wasn't, it wasn't figured out. So I think having it where I was away at college, it did help and I think that minimized it. I think there was a lot of safety nets there because I had a community. I had my faith. I had things to fall back on. I had school as a significant distraction and that was my vocation at the time. So I would have to really, really think and see like what were the immediate effects of it during that time when it was going on? I mean, the divorce officially, all the paperwork in courts going back and forth just ended this year over a decade later. Oh, my goodness. I didn't know that. Ok. And we're good friends for everyone listening. Yeah, I didn't, I mean, there was, I thought a lot of the stuff was over. So, I mean, the divorce itself was done but then the battles for, am I getting paid enough? You know, like going into those things, you only have so many years. So obviously it's half of the marriage in years. And so that finally is over and that, so all I would hear about is the court battles, blah, blah, blah. So now that's done and I don't have to hear that anymore. So there's a lot of relief in that I'm sure for everyone involved. But I could see especially for you and yeah, no, that sense of relief I think makes a ton of sense. And I've heard that from other people too because I remember one young woman saying, you know, her mom approached her and told her that she wanted to divorce her dad and kind of put her in a weird spot. She didn't know what to say to that. But one thing she knew was she just want the fighting to stop. And so I totally get that sense of relief immediately, especially. Was there anything else that you can kind of tie back to? Yeah, just the breakdown of your family and the divorce and everything that maybe played out years later. I mean, there's some major things I would say that play out later. But they played out in the time they played out during their marriage. So from a younger age, I obviously had a love for our faith. I had a love for theology. I had a love for church teaching. So when I first learned what marriage was learned this, this is great Sacrament. And I remember talking to it about my, with my siblings and my parents. When I say siblings, I don't mean all of them. I mean one sibling in particular just to clarify. So I would talk to about to my older sibling uh because she was also very active in our youth group at the same parish. And so I remember bringing it up to her. I'm like, oh, I just learned about this and she was like, oh yeah, our uh some of this was my mom's second marriage. Her first marriage was Sacramental. It was never an nulled because she felt at that time she was so young. She didn't have a full understanding of it that if it was to be annulled, it would be as if she didn't exist. And so that was her conception of that at the time. Obviously, that's not the case, that's a very harmful thinking and that really should be addressed and it just wasn't addressed in a healthy way. So my parents' marriage was a civil marriage. So as soon as I heard that all I could think was man, I don't want either one of my parents to be in mortal sin. I want them to divorce and knowing that I had, I think I had that thought probably around sixth or seventh grade was the first time I thought that but they should not be married. Like it's not even a sacrament. It's a valid marriage but it's not sacramental. My mom has been living in mortal sin in this and my dad's participating in it as the sin of scandal. I want this to be over and thinking, you know, it doesn't take away any of our identities as kids in a family. It doesn't take away any of that. I just wanted it to be done because I didn't want either one of them to be hurting their soul in that way. And it was very difficult to the only person I tried to articulate that to was my youth minister and my older sister, I never said that to parents. But I do remember feeling that sense of like, oh like, ok. And I remember after that would be like mom, you want to go to confession with me, but you never know if someone's going to realize that level or degree of sin and actually bring that to confession or want to, you know, have that, that cleansing from it. So knowing that it definitely put a different filter on relationships, it put a different filter on what I see marriage being and the intention behind it and having it being sacramental and the value of that as I was growing up more in high school years, not seeing what I would consider a healthy marriage, seeing more fights. I was very hesitant to get into any kind of relationship with people because I thought that's all it was. This is just someone that you fight with regularly and they just can't go anywhere like they have to come back. You know, that's kind of what my conception was of it a little bit like, ok, this is someone you have kids with, you get to fight with them all the time. But I realize as an adult, all I saw was the fighting. I didn't see the resolution. And that's something as an adult, as a therapist. Whenever I talk to people, I said the most important thing in my opinion that you can do as a parent is resolve conflict in front of your kids because so frequently we all learn how to fight. We all learn how to fight fair, we learn how to fight unfair, you know, I mean, we learn how to backstab but we don't learn how to resolve. And that is the most difficult thing. Like we rarely, probably rarely hear how to even properly apologize to someone. And now that's such a big emphasis in my life. Like when I apologize to someone, I have like a specific formula that I follow for even making an apology because it was something I had to really learn to dive into because I never saw that example through my parents. And that was hard, like realizing that like first time in the inkling England 6th, 7th grade, going into high school, seeing it more and then have developing, you know, more deep relationships with friends, seeing the importance of it and then going to their houses and seeing that their parents had such great relationships and they were playful, you know, things like what like what was in their water today, like what is going on here? So seeing that is a big gap in the knowing that something is missing in my life and something is missing in their marriage and it's not healthy, like there's something unhealthy here. So I had to do a lot of observation of other families and other married couples to learn what it is. And through God's Providence when I went back to school at Francisca, and I lived with a family, the most amazing family who they really taught me what it is to be a Catholic family and have a sacramental marriage. I mean, they're, they're beautiful. So I think they kind of were like the positive influence that kind of took away a lot of the negative effects. I mean, it influenced every single influence relationships I had from friendships to romantic interests. It affected everything of not knowing and thinking, ok, this person is just going to fight with me and leave me you know, how long do I have with this person? Because they're probably just going to leave me whether it was a friend or not. And that was, that was a definitely a hard thing to have to think of. Like, how would you enter any sort of relationship? I know I felt the same way. I remember as like a 12, 13, 14 year old, like in the years that followed my parents' separation and later divorce. I was like, I will never get married. Like just like you felt, I was like, if this is where it leads, why in the world would I want to put myself through this? Because it was super painful for me even from the outside. And then I, you know, was able to think through like, well, it must be really painful for them. I don't know what it's like, but it must be really painful. So why would I want to put myself through that? So, yeah, and I love what you said about observing, you know, healthier relationships and how that, you know, it sounds like it gave you hope and it also kind of taught you well, this is what it looks like, this is what it should look like. And I know that was super helpful for me and we've heard that trend a ton on the show and the interviews we've done. So it's really, really beautiful. I want to go back to the apology formula. You got me really intrigued. I know everyone's like ears lit up when you said that. So what is your formula if you're willing to share? Yeah. So and this is not, I don't have the book references. It's upstairs in my library somewhere. So when you are apologizing to someone, you need to acknowledge what it is, you did and you need to name it specifically. So it's not just saying, I'm sorry that you feel bad. I'm sorry that upsets you. Well, what is the that of that statement apologizing for their feelings? And you can't do that? Your feeling, your feelings are your own. I can't control how you, I mean, I can influence and anticipate what your feelings might be through my actions. And so that is part of my responsibility, however, I don't have full responsibility over your emotional reaction. That's yours. So when we apologize to someone, you're like, I'm sorry that made you upset. Ok, great. That's not an apology. The apology is discussing what that is. So when I apologize to someone, I want to make sure that I go over the exact action that I believe I was wrong in doing or was unjust because it's not always something that you're actively doing wrong. I think it sometimes can also be when you're not being just towards another person which could be that you neglected to act or you acted in a way that could potentially be harmful or you're just wrong with something, you know, you could say something that wasn't factual in the heat of a moment and it was inappropriate to say so that I think owning up to the specifics of what it is, you are acknowledging you did wrong then recognizing how either you anticipate or you think not anticipate again, that would be worse. But how you see it affected them. Whether or not your reflection on their reaction to it is accurate or not. That's not the really important thing. It's acknowledging that you, it's a way of seeing them of understanding. Yes, this is, I have been acknowledging what it is. I did wrong. This is how it affected you. At least I could see this is how it affected you. And this is why I really don't want to do that again. You know, you saying something I suppose not say I really, I couldn't stand your shirt and I made a terrible comment about it. Is this an actual statement? Right? I just kidding. No, that's a lovely color. So I might say, you know, Joey, I'm really sorry. I made that comment about your shirt. It was really inappropriate and disrespectful for me to say. And I can imagine how disrespected you may have felt and I don't want you feeling that way because I do respect you and I do care about this relationship and I wouldn't want to have you think that I don't care about you. So I'm really, I'm really sorry that in the heat of the moment I disrespected you in that way and that was wrong and I will do my best to try and not, you know, make a comment like that. So adding a little bit of um and not just saying, I'm sorry, like everyone can say, I'm sorry, not everyone can apologize. An apology is really what repairs a relationship and that's something when I go back to what I said, I heard my parents say, I'm sorry. Tons of times. I don't think I ever heard them apologize. Oh, ok. And so that's something, that's something I had to learn over time. And when I actually started practicing it, it is tough. I don't want anyone listening to this thinking that following the formula that I just did is easy. It is so incredibly difficult. Like I'm getting goose bumps, just think about how difficult it is to do. And there have been many times where it brings me to tears just because you feel the weight of it. It's almost kind of a pseudo confession to someone who's not a priest. You're really acknowledging what it is and taking responsibility and giving that action a name. And when we give something a name, we can take ownership of it and we can do something about it. It gives us a new found power over it. So that's really good. Yeah. It's very difficult to apologize. It's easy to say. I'm sorry. It's difficult to apologize. Yeah. No, that's so good. And, yeah, I think one of the things that I struggle with when it comes to apologies is there's situations where, like I was genuinely trying to do the right thing or I thought I was doing, you know, what would help that person and then there's like, either a misunderstanding or it's seen in like, a bad light and that gets really frustrating. It's like, I don't want to apologize in that moment. Like, no, no, I was actually trying to do the right thing. So that could be tricky. So any advice there for people listening who are, you know, they literally feel like no, no, like I was literally trying to help and I did something that was then perceived as harmful or whatever the thing I think with that it's, we do need to be careful of what we say, the reason you're a what it is you're apologizing for because if you genuinely did not commit an offense, you did not do something wrong. You did not do something unjust, then really what you're doing is is making a comment or having a conversation to repair that relationship because I, I don't think we should start apologizing for things when we didn't do something wrong or when we weren't unjust. So if your action, whether it was because you think you were doing the right thing, if you were genuinely doing something that was correct. And right. And just to do, you don't apologize for doing something. Right. And just, we apologize for doing something that was wrong. So I think having that distinction is really important and that's how we would approach it because it's a different type of conversation. If it's the conversation where you did do something, just, it just didn't turn out the way you wanted and it had a negative impact on them or negative influence on, on the person. That's a conversation of repair and bringing up the intention of this is why I thought this was correct. I can see perhaps I didn't go about it in a way that was going to be positive. And so I can see how maybe I did, I could have approached it differently. And the reason I'm even bringing this up is because I do care so much about you. I wanted to do right by you. I wanted to help you. And so in my perspective, I thought I was doing that. I can see that perhaps I was incorrect. I was wrong in thinking that but again, you're not apologizing for what you did. If you didn't do something unjust, then we don't, we shouldn't apologize for doing something that was correct to do. We can apologize for how we approached it. Perhaps it could have been something that you actually talked to the person about first before you did it or maybe it could have been something that you acted on it out of, you didn't use proper prudence or temperance and you acted too quickly and you didn't reflect on the situation enough. So, in that sense, you can bring that up. I just, I don't personally, I don't think, and that's tough. It's really tough on the receiving end because you want to hear that someone say like I was wrong. But when they think about it too, if you didn't do something unjust and you were not wrong, you should not be apologizing for it because you didn't. There's nothing to apologize for so that it's more a conversation to repair. Yeah. No, that's good. And I think, um yeah, I think that's freeing because, you know, I, I think at times as humans were falling, we can be malicious, we can be nasty. But a lot of times I think there's frustration in relationships where it's like there's just misalignment like you thought the person wanted this, but they actually wanted that and they were kind of put off by you trying to do the first option, you know. So I've definitely seen that play out. I love what you said about the resolution though. And that's something you taught me actually. And that I've tried to live out not perfectly um bridge and I try to do that with Lucy, especially if she sees us, like having some sort of conflict and, you know, beyond just maybe a little bit of a dialogue, like if it's something that, you know, becomes more of a conflict, we want her to know like, hey, we're fine. Like mom and daddy, love each other. We're not, nothing's changing. We're just, you know, we just had a disagreement. We had a little bit of a conflict and trying to explain it and then saying, like, we love each other and being so young right now, uh we try to show that in some sort of a physical way like with a hug or a kiss or something. Yeah. Again, we don't do that 100% of the time. We're not perfect. I don't want to give people an impression. But uh it's definitely been very, very helpful and we've seen that also with her like she lights up when she knows that like everything is ok, like there's peace in the home because it's crazy how little kids like they become very perceptive to those things. And uh and so it's, it's really helpful for so parents listening, it's a great tip. It's something that like you see an immediate effect with. And so it's something you can implement right away. And I think to add on something to another layer, having a resolution or presenting one, it also needs to be developmentally appropriate to the child because if it's not, then it's going to go way over their head and they might not realize that was actually resold. That makes sense, you know, so in the way you display it. I mean, because you can show that to Lucy at, at a young age that she is, you know, you can role play things like even sharing basic things. You wanted a toy, she ripped it from your hands. You guys fight about it and then you have a resolution. You can physically embody that and that's something that will stick because then they will pick up on that. That's the correct behavior. Even if this is something I want and I rip this out. That's not OK. Here's how we resolve that. Whether it is that that gets removed from me and hand it back to whoever or I learn to share better, whatever the case may be, it's not always my dog is snoring in the back. Yeah. So having, having something that's developmentally appropriate as a resolution, I mean, obviously as kids get older, letting them hear those discussions to the point that's appropriate for them and again, to the degree that is appropriate for them just because someone has the capacity to understand the argument and all the, you know, the words that are being said does not mean they should get all the information. So even having resolution be presented because you can, you can go fight in your room, you can have the resolution be done in your room. In private, there needs to be an additional public display that's appropriate for your Children to hear because that's what you're teaching them if they saw the original discriminated. And I think that's, I think that's what's so powerful is that you don't have to do it perfect every time. That's why you don't need to do it in front of them every time you can go resolve it in private. But then when you're ready to come back out, you need to show that there's power in having a public display of a resolution. And I love what you said before too. You just never saw that side of it growing up and then you were exposed in other relationships and you learned it, which is beautiful and that's such a hopeful message to anyone listening right now, especially maybe you're going through your parents' divorce like in the moment and you're just in a like dark tough spot. There's a lot of hope at the end of the road, there's a lot of hope ahead. So keep your head up. Um Even if it is really, really painful and hard right now. So, yeah, I love that so much good stuff there. And like I said, it works. It's, it's really, really helpful and the more you practice, the better you get at it. I mean, even if you're doing it in private and you come out and you do a role play, you will only get better at resolving things and doing it publicly. I mean, there's no downfall to it. Yeah. No, 100% and it is, um, you need humility, kind of going back to that apology. And that's, I think that's the challenging part for me. I know that's pride is easy to, uh, it influences your behavior, actions and if you're not humble then, yeah, it can be just horrible for your relationship and I've certainly struggle with that. But, um, when you are humble it's beautiful and it ends up making the relationship and it's, it's a good reminder to your kids that you're on the same team. Like the team is your family. And even, even greater than that is the priority of the marriage that you two are on the same team as a married couple as parents. And then your whole family is on the same team. So, when we don't have that, I mean, that's something I didn't have. I didn't feel like our family was a team. I didn't feel like my parents were a team. I could play off of them like a fiddle. Not that I don't play the fiddle. Who knows? Maybe I could have. I tried, but I would get a yes from this one and a no from the other. And I would play that all day easily and I knew exactly which scenarios to go to which parent for, to get the answer I wanted because I knew they were not a team. And so that's just, that was definitely a hard thing to learn. And that was something that I could see influence my relationships, even friendships if I had a disagreement. Stonewall. No, it was so much easier just to cut someone out and not try and resolve it because I didn't know how to resolve anything. Yeah. How would you? You never, I mean, some things, I mean, I don't know. I wouldn't call it a supernatural gift. Although, and I don't mean supernatural in like a hero sense. I mean, supernatural is a grace that was given to me. I felt very, very protective of friends. And so even if someone got bullied, I would go and confront the bully and say, hey, that was not ok. What you did, I want you to come apologize. And so I would, I would do that. I started doing that in like fourth grade when bullying became like, you know, more prominent when we get to fourth grade. And so I just hated bullies. And I mean, I certainly, I know there was comments I said that I can think of to this day. I'm like, man, that was really rude. So if I ever came across that person, I probably would apologize for the things, some things I said, oh, even now, but it was just, I learned that it was so much easier to cut someone off instead of doing the hard work and no one wants to know that they're wrong. No one wants to think they're wrong. No one wants to hear they're wrong. We all are very prideful and having a sense of pride is a good thing, but it, obviously it can go too far, too quickly when you're not willing to submit yourself. I mean, especially this is your spouse, you're on the same team, not having the willingness to submit for the sake of your family, for the sake of your marriage, for the sake of Christ. Like for, there's so many things that go into it just for the sake of goodness, you know, for the sake of growing and becoming a better person. I think it's extremely, that's probably one of the most difficult things to actually live out. Yeah. No, I, I can agree with that. Let's stay here for a second because we have some parents or people who will be parents, future parents and they may be wondering, I know, I kind of wonder this. Now you're making me think, what do you do as a parent when kids try to, like, pit you against each other? Because they're so good at it because they're so good. I remember doing that as well as a kid. And so, yeah, what do you do in this situation? Have a game plan going into it? We all know kids are going to do this. Even if, even if you're a great example of a marriage, kids are going to do that because they're not going to be satisfied with a no answer, no kid wants to hear it. Can I have a dessert? No, if you said that I was going to go to mom or dad and I'm going to figure out who's going to say yes. And then I'm going to go to that person to get the answer I want next time. So having a game plan ahead of time and just having the default statement of saying I need to talk to mom about it. I need to talk to dad about it and just doing that and knowing that if that becomes your go to phrase, they will stop asking you, they will stop asking you because they know they can't play that game with you. And even if your kids are doing it now where they're pitting you against each other, you can start doing it. Now, it's going to be an uphill battle. It, it absolutely will, it will get worse before it gets better. And it could be that your spouse gives in more because it is tough. It is tough to maintain a new behavior, especially when you know that behavior is going to be a painful growth. You're gonna have some significant growing pains for your kid, but it will get, it will get better if all of a sudden they realize, ok, every time I have come to you with this, you said I need to talk to mom or I need to talk to dad first and not even giving them an answer. And that's, that's the important thing is not giving them even your preliminary answer. Cut it out completely and say no, I need to go talk to the other parent and then we'll give you an answer. So please don't ask me about it again until I have a chance to talk to mom or dad. That's so important because if you give them a preliminary example or the preliminary answer, they think that that's going to be the final answer. And so they might become even more upset if that's not the final answer. So it's better just to leave that out completely and say nope, I need to talk to mom or dad about it first. So like a scenario I know with Lucy, she's so funny. She has this like motion that she does when she wants ice cream. Like we try not to give her too much ice cream but she like imagine licking ice cream. She does that she goes and that means like I want ice cream. And so one of the mistakes I'm realizing I've made is I say, well, it's ok with me. If it's ok with mom, it would be better to say because then all the pressure is on her and then she'll be actually disappointed, but it's better to say like let's talk. I need to talk to mom. I don't know yet if you can not talk to mom. So OK, let's get him learning. Thank you even saying that, that little piece. He said, I don't know if you can yet because even that statement signals to the kid, it's up to mom. I see because you have just acknowledged that you don't have the answer and that you have to ask mom because mom holds all the power. Ok. Yeah, because then you're basically putting all the power and pressure because then because the kid is going to question, well, why don't, you know, I'm asking you, you're my parent, you know, so obviously depends on the cognitive ability of the kid. But that is something that they will catch on to. I mean, if I'm able to catch on to it in a second now, kids, kids get that so much quicker. I mean, they will believe your behaviors so much faster than they believe your words. I mean, they will just read that for days. So it, it even though it as difficult of a suggestion as it is just not giving any kind of answer and saying I need to talk with mom about it first, then I'll let you know, please don't ask me about it again till then. That's it. I mean, something different in the dynamic of I have my nieces spend the night with me usually once a week and I have done that since I moved here in 2020 which has been amazing. I love being able to give their parents a date night because I think it's so important for spouses to have a designated date night and have it be as routinely as possible. So they have it usually once a week, at least during the school year, it's always once a week and when they're at my house, because I have seen at their house that dessert is such a problem whether they haven't eaten enough to get dessert or they don't get the dessert of the choice or they misbehave. And so dessert is taken away. I mean, it is, I mean, it's just a nightmare. It's like a nuclear bomb just went off in the house. And so in seeing that I was like, nope, that does not fly in my house. I will not put up with it. So we do not do dessert in my house, period at all. They never and so it took a little bit for them to because initially we did and it started off with they would never finish it. So they would insist on having their own. We would get like a little mug cake. So it's like an individual cake. You put the mix in your cup and then you put in the microwave and you just eat a little cake out of your own little personal size mug, but they would never finish it. So I was like, ok, well, I'm not going to try and get you to finish your dessert just for the sake of finishing it. I'm just going to take it away because if you really, all you had was one bite. So you two can either decide to share or we just won't have it. They didn't want to share. So I said, ok, we're just not going to have desserts anymore, then that's fine. So they stopped expecting it and it's never a problem. So now if I give them a dessert, it's like this huge surprise. And so now you can ask my sister this, I think it was two weeks ago when I brought them home, she just sat at the other end of the counter and she goes, so I'm just curious, is there anything that mom and dad can do differently to help you listen to us better because you seem to listen to Peter so, so much better. There's never a problem. You don't throw temper chances for her. What is it? And it was her Aunt Leila's answer was very interesting. She said, well, Peter Rat doesn't give us warnings. She says sometimes when you give us a warning, I get anxious and I think I'm going to make a mistake. And so I get more emotional. If I do make a mistake, this is coming from a seven year old. This is pretty profound stuff for a seven year old to be saying in Lucy, you know, she chimes and she goes, yeah, parent doesn't give us warnings. She just tells us what happened or if we did something wrong we resolve it and we move on like there is no warning, there is a correction and that's it. So, I mean, it is the case when I thought I was like, man, do I ever really good warnings? Like no, actually I, I really don't. And so we don't have issues and so having different set of expectations and being prepared for those, like not simply not having dessert, period. There's no expectation for it. So there's no temper tantrum. There's no emotions around dessert. If you get it, it is a genuine treat. So it's never about you have to finish your food. You don't, you can't merit it at my house. And that seems to help. The master is a little tiny. I know dessert is very, very small, but for little kids, it can be really big deal when you're trying to get them to go to bed. So it's just an easy thing to do. I mean, it's not really easy because obviously if they're so used to it, it, it takes a long time to get out of that habit. But it is possible. I don't even remember where that tangent started. This is good. No, I appreciate you going into this and I'm learning and I know everyone listening is learning too and just to be clear to everyone listening, I do not have Children. I have nieces and nephews and I adore them. So I love being the thing that they get to come hang out with. Yeah. But now you have all your background and studying human development and helping people in that way too. So that's certainly helpful. And no, this is really good stuff. Going back to your story a bit. We were talking about just how your upbringing and what you experienced at home impacted you personally and we got into your relationships. Was there anything else you add about your relationships? Whether it's your friendships, dating relationships that you saw, like, were affected by the, there was this little thing I didn't realize how big of a deal it was until I started dating someone in a very serious way. And I can see a serious future with holding hands. And the, and the reason was I never saw, I think I can count on one hand, the number of times I saw my parents hold hands. Yeah, exactly. And when I think about it, I'm like, man, that's when all the other functions are gone. When you can't be physically intimate with your partner. If you or your spouse, you can't have a conversation with them because maybe you're mentally, not there or you're sick and you can't kiss them. What's the one thing you can still do is hold hands and so never seeing that really growing up, I realized how, I mean, I'm also a physical touch person that's really important to me. So, seeing that that wasn't done and it's such a simple thing. And then when you see like old people holding hands, you're like, oh my gosh, they are just the cutest thing ever. Like you have to ask yourself, what is the reason I'm having that reaction to seeing some strangers hold hands or why do I find it so annoying? When I see a couple at a table who are just like following each other's hands, you're like, ok, guys eat your dinner, you know, but there's something really, I think there's something so powerful about that because I mean, our hands are very, very sensitive and we use them to speak, we use them to do day to day action. So we use, they're so profound. I mean, we wouldn't really be humans without our hands, you know, like obviously there's much more to that statement. This is just a very simple thing, but I didn't realize how important holding hands was until I met someone that I really, really want to spend a future with and thinking man, my favorite thing like when I and don't get to be around you, the one thing that I want to do is hold your hand and it's because I never saw it. And so I, I explained to him, you know, I really think the most important thing to me is to make sure that if we, if we're still together, if we get married, we have kids that we better hold hands, whether you are upset with me or not. If I reach for your hand and you deny holding my hand, like there will be hell fire running down. But I just think there's such importance in holding hands. Like because even if, even if kids are not comfortable hugging or they're not comfortable sitting next to you or they're not comfortable with any kind of physical touch. Generally, they might be ok with holding your hand. Like because it could be a safety thing like crossing the street. So they get used to holding your hand for some reason. So there's so much about holding hands that I think goes understated. Yeah. And I didn't realize that until I was an adult and then when I realized why it was, I realized I didn't see my parents hold hands. Yeah. OK. Now that makes so much sense. It's such a primal thing to I forget if this was in a talk or something. But when we're meeting someone for the first time too, you might have even taught me this. The, the act of like shaking a hand or showing your hands is actually on a subconscious level. Like we did have this conversation many, many years ago. It's like a signal of safety. It's like, oh, they don't have like a weapon again. It's like a primal thing, but they don't have a weapon in their hand. They're not trying to hurt me. They're giving their hand as like an extension of vulnerability and trust And so that makes sense. Why that would be that important to you? That's cool. Anything else that you would add about, kind of the impact on your relationships? I would say the intentionality of approaching relationships. So I'm just now entering into a relationship where I'm like, ok, I'm on my end. I'm like, 1000% positive. This is the person I want to marry and then having that hesitancy of, well, I've met lots of people who were wrong, who may have had that same thought. So how could this be different or how can I better prepare myself? Because, I mean, the last thing I want to do is think of what kind of letter would I write in an annulment to try like annulment process to say that I didn't know or that I wasn't prepared and I don't want to ever be in that position, you know, I mean, it's just, it's interesting because I, I mean, I didn't really know the annulment process until I met someone who had gone through it. And they had to have, they had to write their own witness statement, but they also had to have friends, either the person like the best man or someone at the wedding party or just someone who knew them intimately, they have to write in a statement as well to support that. Let's explain that a little bit for people who don't know what we're talking about. So, I annulment is saying that valid marriage was never, is it valid or sacramental marriage? Sacramental marriage was never created or I don't know what the right term there is. It never, it never take place. And so there was like an appearance, but there was some substance was missing, something was lacking essentially. And that's a longer conversation of like, well, what are the different property or what are the different things that need to be present? That's a separate conversation. But in this context, we're talking about, yeah, when you go through that process, you're essentially trying to explain why you think there were those things that were lacking that did not allow you to enter into a sacramental marriage. So that's what you're talking about when you're writing that statement. Yes. And I can't remember if it was in a movie or if I heard a story about some kind of mobster or gangster or something. I, I remember a story though that each time this person had gotten married that he would write a letter explaining that he really had no intention of being faithful, didn't want to marry this person, but wanted the appearance of it to be a sacramental. So they wrote a letter prior to the sacrament taking place so that when they wanted to get a divorce, they could because they had written this letter beforehand. And so I think that's kind of where I can't remember where this came from. But when I heard of that. I was like, man, it's that easy. It really is the intentionality of it. So I don't ever want to put myself into a position where I have to think back on a time that was positive because I don't think anyone really looks back at their, their wedding in that time of marriage prep thinking I should not get married. I mean, I think there are people and if that's the case, then there is grounds for annulment because obviously that is indicative of some kind of pressure or there was something withholding and not allowing them to express their full free will in that. And obviously, that's a condition for it. But thinking how, how best can I prepare myself for this to know that this is a good decision and not just a good decision, but a real decision, one that has firm grounding like I'm not just standing on sand. And so now like I'm going through a book that says, you know, 100 and one questions before you get engaged. And it's really because you've mentioned how helpful it's been. We've only gone through eight questions and we this has been weeks and the conversations end up being more than an hour multiple times. I've cried just because some of them are really difficult to have to think of because you have to, you're explaining things that you don't want to shed light on. But if you're going to be spending your life with someone. There's a lot of things you need to shed light on and to make sure that, you know, that you are entering in this with a full and free knowledge of someone and that's so difficult and, and I'm not sure that my parents had that at all. And so I think that's something that from seeing an unhealthy example of a marriage thinking how can I prevent that or guard, not prevent it, but guard myself against that. And I think a really good step to guard yourself against that is to do the really hard work before you initially say yes, I'll marry you. I love that. And it's really tough. Like we've only gone through eight questions and it's been like nine hours of us talking and like I said, I mean, it's, it's emotionally really good, but afterwards I feel so much better, like it's just, it's not a weight off my shoulders. It's not as if I'm withholding anything. It's just being intentional about the reason we're asking these questions is because we are discerning if we should get married or not. And so I think it's so important. So what are some examples of the questions just for anyone who's thinking like, yeah, I could really use that in my relationship. Like maybe they're in a dating relationship or maybe they even are engaged and they're trying to, you know, further decide discern is this really the right person for me because that really is what engagement is. It's a time of like further sermon. So I'm just curious. Yeah, what that book is like and what some of the questions are? Yeah, I'll just go through the first question was great because obviously it opens up a space for the further questions. The first question is what makes it easy for you to be vulnerable and open and what makes it difficult? Obviously, that's very intentional is the first question because you want to create a space where you are willing to be vulnerable and open. Because if you're not, then you shouldn't go through this book. Like if you can't create that or they can't provide that or they're not willing to work on providing that, then you've got a problem. Yeah. So if you can't make it through question one, you have got a problem like that's a big red flag right there. If you, if your answer is I'm not willing to be vulnerable in front of you, do not proceed until you, you address that. Um One that was very difficult for me. Uh Was the question, how do you maintain healthy interdependence? So I've been on my own for so long. I can move myself from house to house, all by myself. I can do fixing things around my house all by myself. I can do a budget all by myself. There's so many things that I'm completely capable as a human being to do all by myself and you just have the temperament to just being a very independent person like me, I, I've always, I've always had that. Like, if I see something that needs done, I'm just going to do it and even if I think someone else could help me with it, if I think it's going to take them longer to do it, I'd rather be more efficient and do it myself. So it's very tough to say, ok, how am I going to actually allow this person to enter into my world and me give up something and allow them to do something for me. Even, even like how I put groceries away in the refrigerator, the simple thing, you know, it's something simple or how I fold a towel. I'm so used to doing it the exact way I have done it for so many years. And now I'm going to not only give up that desire for how I've always done it, I'm going to allow someone else to do it for me or they're going to allow me to do something for them. Like the, the humbling aspect of that. I mean, it's even just ironing someone's shirt for them, you know, like everyone's capable, not everyone, I guess, I don't know that for a fact, but many people are capable of ironing their own things but allowing someone else to serve you in that way. And that's something that I think is very profound. I've always wanted and I have a very strong desire to serve others and act like act of service. I think it cannot be understood. I think it's a great thing and it's something we should all practice. Not because it's our love language just because we should do that. We should sacrifice that because it's, it's saying that you're worth my time, you're worth this effort. I think it's extremely important. So this question, I think we, I think we talked about this one question for two hours and I was bawling because I was like, I like, that's one thing I'm so petrified of is that I'm not going to know how to give something up even though I want to, I desperately want your help. I want you to be able to do these things for me because I want to be able to receive that love from you in that way. And it would be great. I'm just afraid that I'm not going to be willing to actually give it up to allow you to do that whether that's my pride or just anxiety popping up because it's something different and I have to get used to it. That was a really tough question. Yeah. No. That makes so much sense that I could see the, this book being a great conversation starter and it gets to the root of, you know, so many of those foundational things that you want to be on the same page. On when it comes to at least to know kind of what to expect moving forward. So, wow, I love that and I could see how that would be super, super helpful. So, anything else before? Yeah, I would say there's one more question, that's a beginning question that was really profound and I didn't limit it. I, when I read this, you'll know that there's a one specific sense of this statement, but I took it in a different direction. Obviously, that's just if there's one direction, I'm always going to go a different one. So what have you learned from previous relationships that will make you a better spouse uh for someone at this time? And so when we hear the word relationship, we're thinking romantic relationships, I didn't take it that way. I thought of how, what's my relationship as being a daughter? What's my relationship as being a sibling? What's my relationship as being a friend? What's my relationship as being, you know, beloved daughter of God? What have I learned from those relationships that make me a better person to make me a better spouse? And that was, I mean, that was tough, like just actually thinking and reflecting on that because I mean, like, yeah, I think it was so great. Yeah, I do, I do think I'm great. I think I'm a wonderful person. I think I'm a worthwhile person. But what has helped me to get there? And it is a very humbling experience to actually reflect on the ways you haven't been a great friend or you have missed opportunities to serve others. And so thinking of that and thinking, how has this made me a better person now, or how is it going to make me a better person in the future as someone's spouse? A tough question? That is a tough question. So good though. I'm glad you brought that up and I think it's an excellent resource for everyone listening, especially people who are entering or in a relationship to help, you know, further discern if this is something that could turn into marriage that could go down that road before we transitioned into talking about trauma. I'm curious, what were a few things, the two or three things that helped you cope with the pain that you were dealing with and also to heal? Like, what were some things that helped you cope and heal? I think first and foremost, not being in the environment. And I can't even say how it helped me because I have no idea what it was like because I wasn't there. But I can anticipate what it might have been like because I can reflect on what our family like was like when I was there. You know, the all the arguments and things like that and unhealthy behaviors and patterns not to say that there weren't some healthy ones too. Of course, there were. But I mean, we're kind of primarily looking at the ones that are more unhealthy. So I think the most powerful thing that was helpful was the fact that I was not physically there. And then I, where I was at college, I had, I had my faith community. I had my friends, I had sports, I had my classes, I had positive things that were actively engaging me instead. So I only had to really think about going home for the major holidays or for break and I imagine things probably would have turned out very, very differently if I had been there, if you were in the midst of it. Yeah. No, that makes sense. Um, and that's something that we recommend from time to time. If things are so intense and toxic at home, it's good to have a breather. It's good to have some space. It can, it can be very, very helpful in terms of, yeah, just helping you not be as emotionally distressed and maybe acting out in different ways trying to deal with the pain that you're experiencing. So I'm right there with you and I think even beyond that, uh, now that I think about it more, but if you really care about your Children, the way that you imagine yourself to care about your Children, if you're going through a divorce and there is no way for them to be physically somewhere else like they're not off to college, they are there making sure that they do have the positive relationships and positive outlets and that you encourage them to maintain their level of participation if not increase it. I think that's something to really think about. Obviously, I, I can't say one way or the other. Um, but I do think that would, I mean, it would only serve to help, you know, to make sure that you're encouraging and not, not limiting it because you're fighting or you're having a bad day. So you're just going to cancel a play date or cancel that sport or cancel that practice. You know, I think encouraging it more and making the effort more to ensure that they have all these, what we call protective factors in their life. Um So maintaining those, if not increasing them for your Children, that makes sense. Was there anything else that was healing for you? It was a long road of healing, you know. Yeah, there's, I would say it all comes for me personally, it all comes back to prayer. And I, during that time, I felt most at peace when I would be able to go to daily mass. I mean, we were very fortunate that the Franciscan University to be able to have three different masses to choose from. Now, it's four, I think masses to choose from on campus. So being able to just offer, I would go first thing in the morning. Um And I did that, I think the majority of the time I would I would go to usually would always for sure. It would always be lent. I would always make sure. Ok. No, this is, I have to go on them but then I would just continue it and it would just kind of just stuck. So then when I got back I'd be like, oh, I would just go anyways. Um, so at that time I hadn't always gone to adoration routinely, but I always went to mass. And so just having that, having that way to start my day and pray the rosary. I mean, I don't, there's no way we can understate that. I mean, it's the source and sum of our, our faith. So allowing yourself to be drawn in and, and knowing that you're not always going to feel good when you go, just the action of choosing to go, even when you feel like a wretch, even when you feel like there's no way that you could even force a smile from your face. Like the greatest effort you're making is getting yourself to get out of bed. You have to remember you by doing that. You're telling yourself more than you think, by choosing to get out of bed, by choosing to maintain your commitments, by choosing to engage in mass to, by choosing to engage in prayer. You are in a very real way telling yourself just how much you are worth it. And so when you had people in your life that maybe weren't telling you you were worth it or that's your perception of it, doing those little things for yourself or you might not be actively telling yourself you're worth it. But you really are in a behavior sense. Ok. Now, that makes sense. And that almost goes further than words for a lot of people at least, which I, which I like, I want to transition into trauma. I don't know, we don't have too much time left, but I'd love to know we've talked about trauma a bit on the show. But I'm curious, uh what's the definition of trauma that you uh for me, the definition of trauma is having something that stresses your resources beyond their capacity. So it could be because trauma can happen. I mean, usually we think of it in a negative sense like post traumatic stress disorder, we think of that, but in a, a lighter sense, it could happen when something really good happens. Like anything that really stresses all of your resources to the point where you do not have the mental, physical emotional resources to continue on at the, you know, maintaining the same level of behavior that you were the same level of competence that you were to me in that sense, it is a trauma. So it could come even from the birth up a new child, that's something that is so gloriously wonderful. But for that short period of time, it can also be very traumatic on us because it is pushing through every single resource you have. And if you don't have additional people to make up for the resources that you're now stressing like family or friends or community, then it can become a problem very quickly. But when you do have those and you're not stretching out every single resource you have till it's bare minimum or its absence, then you're just going to remember that time as, yeah, it was stress when it was hard but it, it was wonderful and I want to have another one. But when you don't have that, your idea is no, like having another one that, that becomes the most difficult thing that you don't want, you want to do. But at the same time, you don't because you know, the stress and the trauma that is going to bring you because your resources are just going to be blood dry again. Ok. That's super interesting. I've never heard anyone that it get a totally different, totally different one, but I think it becomes more applicable to many more things. I wouldn't, I would say my definition. There's definitely some capital t traumas that we would say. But I would say it really acknowledges a lot more of the lower case t traumas that we can experience throughout just day to day life. I'm not saying that it's gonna have a lasting impact, but I would say that I would qualify it as it was one, it does affect you. No, that makes sense. I want to go deep here. What happens inside our bodies, inside our brains when a traumatic event occurs. And I know it's a big conversation. But yeah, let's chip away at it. So, I mean, there's lots of different theories. I mean, essentially we engage in our fight or flight response. And so usually initially, we are startled by something that's the shock of what took place, the event itself and then we can go into our fight or flight and how someone's going to respond to that, it's everyone can be different. And many times we can be shocked, I think by how we react because we can say, you know, well, I always think I, you know, I would be someone who reacts this way if I was given that situation, that might not be the case. You know, it might take you actually being in that scenario to realize how you would respond and it could be completely different than your personality. I found that out the hard way when I had to go through my own trauma, I think, knowing, realizing that I'm a person who's probably going to freeze when everything about my personality, if you met me would tell you that I'm fighting 100%. And so, I mean, that was really even that in itself realizing that and reflecting and I was like, wow, that was in itself very traumatic and very hurtful. Like thinking, I actually for a period of time, thought less of myself because I was like, man, you rose, you didn't fight the way you thought you'd always fight and maybe because you, maybe you weren't capable, who knows? Like I don't, I can't completely say everything to that state, but all I know is that I, I totally froze and that was not, that's not who I am. That in day to day life, that's not who anyone would think I am. And so you learn a lot about yourself. So then after that, the fight or flight, then we have, you know, we, we can go into a freeze and then we have what we consider an altered state of consciousness. So that could be where they, you know, we could think of it as you're in shock or you have an out of body experience as if you are, you know, detached from yourself, watching it happen like you're a witness to it now, um that's a very common thing for people to report happening. And then after that, we, we kind of start to return. And during that also that altered state of consciousness or that out of body experience, you're really not aware or you may not be aware of the physical bodily sensations that are going on. Like you might not feel it like some people who don't realize that their limb was just cut off and they don't feel anything until they actually look at it and then it clicks with their mind that your arm is missing. You should feel extraordinary pain right now and they don't feel it until they actually look and acknowledge it because they're in such an altered state of consciousness that it takes them coming back down. And when they actually are in a place that self repair is the, is the very, what we consider the very end of it. When they start getting into that, they can act. That's when they'll start all the body sensations and thoughts come back and you could be capable of feeling. So between the out of body or the altered state of consciousness and repair, we can go into what we consider just an obedience state. And this, you see a lot with first responders, someone comes to rescue you, they give you directions and you're just going to blindly follow them. But this can be something that is for better or for worse. Uh because it could be someone who is harming you that you're now obedient to because you're just in that you're not fully capable of your own free will in a sense because you're just, you're not in your right mind and that's just a response from it. And until you're in a space where you can be safe, whether that's emotionally or mentally or physically, you're not gonna really get out of that, you're just gonna be listening to the directives that are given to you and God willing, it's going to be through someone who has your best interest and is there to protect you, like someone, you know, officials out of the police or fire department or, um, an EMT. And once you're able to do that, then you can kind of go into the, the self repair. But even the self repair doesn't always mean that it's gonna be positive. It can be something that, and I don't even really want to say negative. It could be something that is life impairing might be a better way of saying it. I mean, we could become more obsessive compulsive with things. I'd say that's probably a very common one. I, I saw that in my own life. That was definitely the path that my trauma took. I mean, it could be with how we eat, it could be with how we exercise. It could be with different addictions. I mean, usually it's very behavioral. That's, that is the one theme of the self is that if it's going to become an issue in how you live your life, it's going to usually come out in the behavior of some kind. And for me, it was definitely the obsessive compulsive of needing everything to be within my control because I wasn't in control and I had a sense of obeying someone that I did not want to because I froze because I wasn't able to fight or fight. And some of that and some of that, when you, when we say fight or flight, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm physically fighting you or that I'm physically, you know, it could be that you're stuck and you freeze because you are physically not able to fight. I mean, and that's a very real thing that people need to acknowledge that sometimes we physically cannot fight and we physically cannot flee. And so our body just start, we just go into a freeze kind of state. So when we come out of it, our self repair could be that we are now in need of absolute control over every single piece of our life. And for me that could have, that came down to how I clean. It came down to how I organize things. It came down to how I put away silverware, it came down to how I fold things, how I organize my closet, everything had to be absolutely perfect. And if it wasn't, then I would get extremely frustrated and I would be easily become angry. Yeah. Um And I usually wouldn't be angry at myself like it would show up in some other relationship, like I would get set off by something little. But it's really because I couldn't keep this, this one thing to be exactly the way I wanted it to. It makes so much sense. And now I like how you said, the self repair is really just a way to kind of feel some level of normalcy back in your life or to get yourself out of a maybe super anxious or super depressive state, like an emotional equilibrium, which makes sense. And there's some really unhealthy behavior that actually does that. And so that's what you're saying, that it serves a purpose. We don't want to continue down that road, but it's there for a reason. And that's often what kind of brings us back to that. And you might not even recognize it. Like a lot of people with mine didn't recognize the obsessive and compulsive behaviors that I was doing. They just thought I was super organized and super on top of my life, like, like type a personality and really, no, my personality is, yes, I'm a very organized person. I prefer to have my life organized. I prefer to anticipate my day to day. Like, I prefer to anticipate three months from now, to be honest. But I can allow to have dishes pile up. I mean, usually not very much because I don't, I have a routine and a habit that I generally don't let that happen or I could go a day where I don't make my bed even though generally I usually do every morning. So it could be things that we see as good behaviors or good traits or things, you know, sense of perfection that we want. But it, it's, it's unhealthy because it was impairing my life that it was affecting how I saw the world. It was affecting how I was able to interact with other people because I couldn't do it. And that's, that's the thing to watch out for, for people. OK. That's good. All right. I want to explain and kind of this whole model one more time and we can use me as a guinea pig. OK. So, so I remember when my mom uh I talk about this sometimes on the show. So forgive me if this is repetitive for some of you listening. But I remember when my mom broke the news that they were, my parents were getting divorced, I was 11 and it was so shocking, like it literally shattered my world. It was really difficult to hear and all. Yeah, I remember that that sensation of like being startled, like kind of looking in disbelief at my mom. Like is this real, is this like actually happening? And then having the reaction of just like crying and, and feeling really angry kind of simultaneously? And so all I could do in that moment was flee. Actually, I remember, yeah, just going hiding in the closet to where like no one could find me. And I was just like kind of suddenly sobbing and just like really, really, really angry. Yeah, kind of like that. Maybe I don't know if that at that point, I was having the psychotic body experience, but I can see how these stages play out. So with that example, if you would kind of explain the model again to make it a little bit more concrete. Yeah. So in, in, in just hearing what you said, so obviously, the startle is very obvious when you hear the news and your fight or flight was very obvious when you said you went into a closet and you started crying with it. Um So the altered state of consciousness would come in or how we would in within this model describe based on the details, solely the details that you gave me. The question is this real that going through your mind and having that doubt and that would be considered for this model and altered state of consciousness that in in this therapeutic approach, we would address that would be what we used for the alternate of conscious. Is that just sense of gosh, how could this be real? How could this be my real life like that is alter state of conscious? Doesn't mean you have to be like hallucinating, you know, it doesn't have to mean anything like that. It could just be that, that sense of doubting the reality of the situation in a very simple way that makes sense. Now, for the sense of automatic obedience and the self repair, based on the details of the story provided, I wouldn't be able to say that this was, you know what that was what was going on. I imagine though that some of the body sensations or the attempt to self repair for you. If you were putting yourself in a closet away from other people crying, you probably, or may have very well had your arms wrapped around your knees rocking yourself as a way of attempting to comfort yourself within the tears. Yeah, that's what it was for sure. That's, that's something that we in an attempt. If you always grew up knowing that was a pattern of comfort for something that brought you comfort, then that very well could have been the self repair that you were attempting to self soothe. It may not have been what actually brought the repair and usually it isn't because it's, it can happen in a very all these things can happen in the span of five minutes or they could happen in the span of five years. We just never, you never know like someone could be um like there's people who are all of a sudden in a clinical sense they have are presenting with schizophrenia when really that's just an altered state of consciousness. And once the trauma is resolved, the schizophrenia may very well go away or diminish to a significant degree where it's no longer clinical, like clinically impairing their life. And schizophrenia again, just for this thing where you're going to be having disorganized thoughts, you might not even be able to string a sentence together in a way that's cognizant to other people. You probably will have either audio visual hallucinations, you may smell things that aren't there. You may have delusions, either of gran or you may think you're Jesus Christ, you may think that everyone is out to get you different things. So it's definitely you are out of touch with reality. I see kind of a break from reality. That makes sense, right? Which is why that would fall in some people who are just in an altered state of consciousness from a significant trauma may present with schizophrenia. Hm. Wow. Ok. I didn't know that that's profound and yeah, and that makes sense with the example I gave how maybe not all the stages are in there. But if I were to continue telling this story, I know for me, one of the things that I fell into which I've shared openly in this show was, um, yeah, pornography became kind of a self repair because it was a distraction. It was something that was brought relief. It brought pleasure, obviously, it brought, yeah, just kind of a way to like emotionally regulate. And so I can, I totally see that as an attempt to self repair as well. But yeah, I don't, I guess the obedience thing I didn't see as much or I'm having a hard time like putting my head around that one. It might not be that every single one of these the phases might not be present in every trauma, right? Or you might not even be able to identify them. You simply we don't always know. That makes sense. I can say I had kind of some weird situations where I've pulled up on like car accidents for some reason, like a good amount of them and try to help the people, like hop out and help. And in those moments you can tell, like people are like kind of during the headlights sort of look that startle and then yeah, they'll do anything you tell them at that point, like if you tell them to like, stop, if you tell them to get out, like whatever, it's, it is profound. So you can clearly see that like anyone who's ever been in that situation or maybe you've seen it on TV or something, you can see how, yeah, that obedience kicks in and hopefully it's with a person, like you said, who's trustworthy because then that's a really good thing. I doubt you could talk to any firefighter EMT or police officer that has not experienced that during, you know, approaching, um, some traumatic experience that someone is going through. Yeah. No, that makes so much sense. Anything else you doubt about the motto in terms of the phase, the phase in itself? No, it is a very, I would say it's a difficult model to go through. Uh So part of the premise is that it's not just discussing these different phases. So what we would have someone do is draw them out and that can be extremely difficult. I mean, not that it can be, it will be, it will be very difficult to do this. However, I have seen people who I had a client who every single minute of every single day was scheduled because she presented, she had sexual trauma for when she was less than two years old and she presented with significant O CD. And so to the point where she wouldn't even allow herself to go to the bathroom until it was time on her schedule for her to go to the bathroom. And so her day was so rigid because she lacked so much control in her life. And that's just how it presented. So it was extremely difficult. And I worked with her for a couple of years and we went through and by the grace of God, she was willing to give this a try no matter how difficult it was. And we went through and she drew out these different stages for different traumas. Then we put them up on a board and I retell the story back to them, but we tell it in a way that usually you put something over their eyes so that they can focus with just one eye. And so that that will help them see it in a different it, it changes your perspective. So it alters the way our brain takes in that information by kind of providing almost like a tunnel vision of it. And so it also provides detachment because when you look through a telescope, things can look, they look far away. They're not, they're not completely present to you. So it's you're telling the story back so that I'm an audience to my own story now. And by doing that, it allows us to close the story because generally what we're seeing is that these different mental health disorders are presenting because that story was not resolved. So when we're, when we're able to start a story and end the story or the trauma, we're able to resolve it mentally and they can file that away and put it away and not have to bring it back out unless they willingly want to and then they can move on with their life. And so this was, this was someone who from every minute being scheduled to not having to schedule anything and living her life freely being able to engage in relationships. I mean, it was a significant transformation but it was extremely hard. I mean, there were some days where even I didn't want to go through working through the therapy with her because it was, I could see it was such a struggle for her. But I also I didn't want to see it's not pleasant content, you know, asking someone to draw out some of the most disgusting things about human behavior and human corruption. It's tough. I mean, it's excruciating. Yeah, but knowing that it's also extremely humbling that this person trusted me so much to help them change their own life and to share their story. I mean, it's, it's, I think I'm one of the most humbling things to be a trauma therapist, I bet. Yeah. Wow. Profound. And that was my next question. Actually, some people I think, feel that healing isn't even possible that the hand they've been dealt in life is just what they have to deal with. They have to carry, carry on. They have to do the best they can that there's no way to really improve. It's just kind of get through survive and, and I get that, I get that feeling. But yeah, is it possible? I mean, you just said it is absolutely, it's not easy. It's possible. It is not easy for some, it will be easier than others. I think as long as you are seeing yourself as a victim and only a victim and you're putting yourself in that box or you're putting yourself in a box of just simply being a survivor when you make it too simple. But it's on the more negative side, you will struggle more significantly to improve or to get healthy again if you remove that and you allow yourself to see that. Yes, this happened to me. It does not define me. It is not happening again to me right now. And so I have today to make different choices and to make a different life for myself when you start that process. And you're open to it and you're willing to add a different adjective to your character or your identity that's not victim. And that's not simply Survivor. You open yourself to such a wide range of choices. And I think people, and it's scary. It's also, I mean, because in a sense you're shedding that, that old identity and that can be very scary for people to do because that's all you've known. That's all you in that sense of survival. That's all you've had to cling to, to just make it from day to day. But when we're willing and I'm not saying this is an overnight process or it's like a statement you make one minute and you're like at 12 o'clock, I'm no longer a survivor. 12 01. I'm moving forward with my life. This is something that happens over a year. Exactly. Exactly. Uh, there's no, there's no magic timeline and that, I think that is something that's most difficult for people to know that. And some people can do this on their own. I mean, I did not, I've been trained as a therapist. I did not go through therapy myself. And so in that sense, it took me many, many more years than it could have and I completely acknowledge that. But it was really my pride that was not willing to, I was not willing to humble myself. And so now that's what makes it so much more profound when people are willing to humble themselves to me because I'm like, wow, these people are superheroes like they are doing something that I was not even willing to do or that I could not bring myself to do. That's amazing. Yeah. So I think, I think healing is possible, moving forward is possible. It's extremely difficult work and it has to start with a decision to put 1 ft in front of the other and having a willingness to walk away from a past identity and find and forge a new one. Honestly, you have to forge a new one and realize that. I mean, I think you're a great person. I think you're a wonderful man and I would tell everyone. Oh, yeah, he's one of the best men I know. Like you guys really get to know Joey. Like he's so great. Like, but if I was to learn something about you at this point in time about your past that I didn't know it could be something that you did. That was terrible. It could be something that was terrible that happened to you. It could be something that was great. All I'm doing is learning new information about you. It doesn't change who you are, doesn't change what I think of you. I'm simply learning new information that I didn't have, but that goes into who you are today, but it's not you. It's something about you, but it's not you. And that's an extremely difficult thing to move forward from and, and, and I'm saying that from experience is that for a long time, I mean, I thought of myself as you know, I'm going to be in this box. I'm not, there's nothing I can do about it. And then I realized that I'm focusing on the wrong thing. Like, yes, this something happened to me, it was difficult, but there's so many other things in the world that I could do. I could choose, choose to go bowling to take bowling lessons and become a better bowler like something so simple, but it would help me improve myself and it would give me hope that I can get better. Like it doesn't have to start out with, with your emotional or psychological health. It could start off with something as simple as trying a new skill and just seeing yourself get better and seeing yourself dedicate that time. You're again, you're telling yourself that you're worth it. You're telling yourself that you can improve. You're telling yourself there is hope for something to get better and that you can take a pile of nothing or a pile of not so great things for not wanting to use other terms. But you're telling yourself that you, you can make yourself clean again, you can and if not, and if not clean again, you can tie dye yourself to be different and present. You know, you become renewed in that sense. And so in that sense, you are still cleaning for a bit. So, but it is tough. I won't lie. It is extremely difficult and it takes time and I think that's why most people don't do it. It's like those barriers that prevent them from doing it. But no, I've been through the therapy actually. And it is very helpful and I had worked through a lot of it on my own or with different therapists, not using that model. but going through it is very, very helpful. It opened my eyes to things that I never even saw that were there the whole time. And I was like, wow, that's like affecting me on a daily basis. But yeah, it's crazy how we kind of continue living out those stories even though they are years in the past. But like they feel in the moment like they're present, it's wild and so super, super helpful. I, I love how you mentioned like the whole victim mentality because that's something that's such a hot topic right now. And I think there's an important distinction that I just wanted to mention for everyone. There are like real victims. And I know you would agree with this victims of, you know, circumstances like they're in a situation and they're victimized and that's horrible and they deserve help. And there's a reason that they feel victimized. There's a reason that they are a victim and you know, you need to move through that and you need to grieve you need to do all that stuff, but you're not meant to remain a victim. And that's what I think is so toxic and so harmful in our culture right now. Is that so many people? I think all of us in one degree or another fall into this choose to remain victims. We choose to put ourselves in that box and then therefore we feel stuck, we can't heal, we can't grow or we feel we can't heal. We feel we can't grow and we're like unable to everything. We feel powerless. We maybe point at other people for our problems. And by definition, then if we're pointing at them for our problems, they must have the solution or so we think therefore, I can't do anything myself. And so one of the things I challenge the young people I mentor is OK, you might not have caused the problem, but you can take ownership of the solution and you can implement that in your life and you can grow beyond this. And so that whole idea of post traumatic growth is so real. And I've seen it like I'm preparing to talk right now on this topic and it's not fully ready. So I won't give you guys it. But there's insane stories of people. There's this one marine who um learned his story and he, I think Rob Jones is his name. If I'm getting that right. He fought in Afghanistan and Iraq and he was an expert at spotting roadside bombs, IE Ds and while he was sweeping for bombs at one point so his teams could like move through. Um he stepped on a bomb and it went off and he lost both his legs like he had to get him amputated above his knees. And for most people, like, you know, rightly so that is traumatizing. He is very much so a victim, but he just refused to remain a victim. And so what he did is he got into like the Paralympic Games and got like a bronze medal on the world stage. He was the first double amputee to ride across the country on a bike. He went through if I'm getting the numbers, right. He ran 31 marathons in 31 days in 31 different cities. Like it's profound. So I think people like that. It's incredible to look at and see, wow, maybe you don't need to go run 31 marathons without any legs. It's amazing. But certainly you can, you know, do other things that are going to help you to heal and to grow and to kind of push through that. So it's, it's amazing to see that, you know, we don't have to remain victims and maybe we were victims, but we don't have to remain victims. I would add one more thing to that. So when I also say victim, being a victim can be a state of fact, right? Maintaining a victim mentality is what is so harmful. If we think of Max Milling Colby, he was a victim. He certainly did not have a victim mentality. He maintained his ability to serve others and not despair. He could have chosen differently, but he didn't, but he was a victim. But he did not maintain the victim mentality. And the victim mentality is when you combine the two of them, that is what becomes so harmful. That makes sense. And the story we're talking about Max Mill and Kobe, the quick version is he was a Polish priest who was locked up in a Nazi concentration camp in Auschwitz. And one night, some prisoners escaped. And the Nazis being who they were chose to I think kill 10 men if I'm remembering the story right, randomly as a punishment for those men escaping. And there was one man uh French France, Francis guy, I think his name. And anyway, he had a family, he had a wife, he had Children and he was just like broke down crying that he was going to be killed. And so Maxim and Kobe, this priest who again, very much so a victim by circumstance, he actually stepped out of line, which in itself was just like incredibly brave thing to do because they could have just killed him on the spot. He stepped out of line to offer his life in exchange. And the Nazi officers were so shocked by this that they actually honored his wish they didn't kill the guy who they could have, they could have just said, oh, you want to die? Ok, great. We're gonna do 11 instead of 10. Um They actually allowed that other man to not be killed and he actually got out of the concentration camp years later and was able to reunite with his family on some level. And um and then Max Million was killed. And so it's a profound story of like going rising above that, you know, victim circumstance and escaping and overcoming the victim mentality. So it's a beautiful story as well. Patty, thank you so much for coming on the show. I want to do this. Yeah. And it's been a long time coming and I want to give you the final word. What words of encouragement would you give to someone who, who feels broken, who feels stuck in life because of everything they've been through, especially if their parents got divorced or there's slaughter dysfunction at home, what encouragement would you give them? And the task is not knowing what to say. It's annoying. Which one you know to go go to. I would say you, you are worth it. So the boundaries that you want to set up for yourself, your healthy boundaries with your parents, with your family, they are worth it and they do need to be protected. And in the sense that I say that I very early on told my parents that I was not to be a go between that I was not going to say, oh, tell them this or tell them they owe me this or bring them this paperwork. Shutting that down. You are worth that as difficult as it is to tell that to a parent, you are worth it and you will be better for doing it, not allowing your parent to or both of them could be one could be both to not talk negatively about the other one in your presence, whether it's directly to you or to one of their friends or to a stranger, putting your foot down for those things because you don't want that to happen. You are worth it. So those healthy, healthy boundaries for you to have put your foot down as strong as you can and, and voice, you don't even have to voice your concern. You just say no, you need to stop doing this because it's not OK. I will not allow it. You are worth it. So many great lessons from Patty's expertise in her story. And if you'd like to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. There's three easy steps to do that. But first, some of the benefits of sharing your story, reflecting on your story is actually healing on a neural biological level. It makes your brain healthier and writing your story also is healing studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed, less anxious, healthier. And also it gives guidance and hope to people who are struggling too. So how do you do? It? Just go to restored ministry dot com slash story. There's a form on that page that guide you in telling a short version of your story and then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous blog article. And so go ahead and share your story now at restored ministry dot com slash story, as discussed in the interview, one tactic to heal is actually find someone who can guide you. That's where a counselor coach or spiritual director can come in. But often it's difficult and time consuming to find someone like that. Thankfully, at Restored, we're building a network of counselors and coaches and spiritual directors that we vet that we trust that we recommend. And by using our network, it's just going to save you a lot of time and effort in searching for a counselor coach or spiritual director. You also find a competent professional that we, again, we've vetted, we trust and recommend. And so how do you make use of that? Just go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching. Fill out the form. It should take about 60 seconds and then we'll contact you once we find a counselor coach or spiritual director, uh, that we recommend at the moment we're still building this list. Uh So if you want to jump on the waitlist, I invite you to go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching. But you might be listening to this at a later date and so it might be fully ready at that point again, go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching or just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them seriously, It takes about 30 seconds to just message them this episode or another episode that you think would be helpful for them. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of CS Lewis who said you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#095: Healing Happens When We Ask for Help | Tanya Lyons

You feel broken. You want to heal. But you’re unwilling to ask for help.

If that describes you, your ability to heal will be stifled. Nobody ever healed their broken leg without the help, knowledge, or experience of others. Healing only happens with the love and help of other people. 

In this episode, we discuss that and more as my guest shares :

• How it took 20 years for her to pursue counseling, but how she found healing there

• Why is it so difficult to talk about our parents’ divorce or broken family and what can we do about that?

• Why taking risks feels extra scary for people like us and what to do if you feel that fear

Buy Tanya’s Book, Come Home Laughing

Join the Course Waitlist

Take the My Broken Family Assessment

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Tanya Lyons

  • Email: comehomelaughing@gmail.com

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  • YouTube

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As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you feel broken and you want to heal, but you're unwilling to ask for help, your ability to heal will be greatly stifled. Imagine breaking your leg. Nobody ever healed their broken leg without the help, knowledge or experience of other people such as doctors, physical therapists, or even people who've broken their legs and learned how to heal and strengthen it. Healing only happens with the love and support of other people. And we discuss that and more in this episode as my guest shares how it took her 20 years to finally pursue counseling, but how she found healing there, we discuss why it's so difficult for people like us to talk about our parents, divorce or broken family. And what we can do about that. We also talk about how taking risks can feel extra scary for people like us and offer advice on what to do if you feel that fear and we hit on well, we want to rely on others and rely on God even in a healthy way to to heal us. But at the same time, we can expect them to do all the work for us. We have to put in the work ourselves. So, keep listening. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panelli. This is episode 95. If you found this podcast helpful in navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce and even finding healing. I'm thrilled to announce a new resource from restored. That'll help you even more. We'll be releasing two video courses. The first course is titled Broken to Whole Tactic to Heal From your parents', divorce or Broken Marriage. That course answers the questions. What is trauma, how does trauma in general but also the trauma of your parents', divorce or dysfunctional family affect? You begin to some of the signs of that even. It's really fascinating. What can you do to heal from it and even prevent yourself from being traumatized in the future and so much more. And that course is actually taught by a trauma therapist with over 15 years of experience healing people from their trauma. The second course is titled Real Help, a guide to Confidently help someone from a divorce or broken family. And that course answers the questions. What struggles do, Children of divorce or dysfunction typically face, what should you say, not say do and not do in order to help them. How do you start those difficult conversations? What should you do if they seem fine and some special tips for parents as well and so much more. And that course is actually taught by me. The content itself is actually based on a lot of research but also on a restored article that ranks top three on Google and receives over 3000 views a month. So stay tuned for the launch of each of those episodes that will be coming to you very soon. And if you'd like to join the waitlist to get notified first and be given special advanced access, just go to restored ministry dot com slash courses or just click on the link in the show notes. And when you do that, you'll get a bonus on building healthy relationships and a strong marriage. Again, go to restored ministry dot com slash courses or just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Tanya Lyons. Tanya grew up in a small town in western Canada. After high school, she joined an international organization, youth with a mission first as a volunteer and then as a staff member, her passion for a Christian discipleship and teaching has taken her to over 40 nations and given her the opportunity to live on three continents. In 2015, she graduated with a master's in Christian formation and discipleship as part of her degree, Tanya researched and wrote a book about the spiritual journey of adult Children of divorce called Come Home Laughing. Since then, she's written three other books and is working on her fifth, a book about getting married for the first time later in life, Tanya is a trained life coach. She enjoys drinking black coffee, geo cashing, swing dancing and discussing what she's reading. She lives in Glasgow Scotland with her husband Patrick and a quick disclaimer. Tanya is a Christian as you can tell. So we speak about God and about faith in the episode. But even if you don't believe in God, you're still going to get a lot out of this episode. And my challenge to you is this just listen with an open mind again. Even if you take the God parts out, you'll still benefit a lot. Here's my conversation with Tanya. Tanya. Welcome to the show. Hey, great to be here as we usually do. I'd like to just dive right in with the deep and heavy topics that we often talk about in the show. But I'm curious in your situation, how old were you when your parents separated and divorced? And what happened there? Yes. So I was 10 when my parents divorced. I really had no idea that they were having any difficulties in their marriage. I think I was just oblivious to it. And uh one day after school, my mom sat me and my brother down on the couch and just said your dad and I don't love each other anymore. And I'm gonna go stay with grandma. So she got her suitcase in the car and drove away and um we saw her later that weekend and found out there was actually more to the story than that. Ok, what led up to it like? So you said things at home were good or at least appeared to be fun from your perspective as a kid. Was there any insight into mom and dad are having problems or anything like that? You know, I don't remember as a kid at 10 years old knowing that there was anything. But later on they did refer that they had gone to counseling for a bit. But the, the part that was more to the story is that my mom was seeing somebody else found out later on that they had been having an affair and then maybe tried to stop and then continued on. So as I understand that was actually going on for a few years before the decision to for my mom to leave and the divorce to happen. Wow. Ok. I'm really sorry to hear that. That's devastating for everyone involved, especially the Children too. I think so often when there's an affair, we tend to think that, you know, obviously the spouse that was cheated on is very hurt and that makes sense. Um And they need, you know, the love and support and healing, of course too. But the Children in a very real way were cheated on too. And so, um so yeah, that's really rough to go through and I'm curious, um, you know, how did all of that, how did your parents divorce that affair even affect you? Especially in your future relationships? I mean, isn't that the greatest question to ask? And it's so hard to sort of finally make sense of it, you know. And, um, but I think the short answer is it just made me afraid to trust people and it made me question my own worth was I worthy of love? Would people stick around for me? I think I really adopted the, the view that all relationships were temporary friendships, romantic. It didn't matter what it was, but that it was more of a when they're gonna leave me not, are they gonna leave me? I ended up very, is isolating myself basically as self protection trying to keep from getting hurt potentially. And even though of course, I really wanted love and connection, but I did not know how, how to build those healthy relationships. So it really kind of got me stuck in a really a painful cycle of wanting something but not being able to, to build those friendships or relationships. I totally follow you there. And I think those of us who come from broken families who are listening right now can totally relate. I know for me, I have the desire to build, you know, healthy relationships, good friendships even and especially a good future marriage. And, uh, like you said, I just felt totally lost. I had no idea how to do that. And I was just filled with a ton of anxiety like you said, a lot of fear that gosh, am I going to repeat my parents' mistakes? Am I going to just end up going through a divorce one day like they did? And I knew with everything inside of me that I didn't want that because I saw how painful it was for them. But I also experienced that pain myself, you know, going through their parents divorce as, you know, an 11 year old boy. And so, um, so I totally can relate with you on that. And I think for many years and the idea of marriage was just so unappealing to me because it just had such a negative connotation. I was quite bitter about marriage and thought it's just a, a bad idea and I couldn't really see any beauty in it or any, you know, way that it would possibly benefit me. So that was confusing too because I thought, well, then what is life about if it's not about family and if it's not about connection, if it's not about belonging? So I think it was quite painful and, and very disorienting as a kid at that age. Yeah, I remember thinking to, like you said, I, you know, if this is where marriage leads, I want nothing to do with it. And I even, you know, silently swore to myself that I will never get married after that whole experience. And thankfully found a lot of healing and overcame that, that lie that, you know, you're kind of doomed to repeat the cycle. But certainly it's, it's scary. And my opinion, you know, there's obviously decreasing marriage rates today in our world, people are getting married less and less and some people point to different factors. But I, I think that broken families and going through your parents' divorce at the core of it. I, I think obviously there is that fear of commitment that everyone always talks about and, you know, younger generations. But what I've seen is that they're not so much afraid of commitment, they're afraid of, like we're talking about repeating that cycle of dysfunction, repeating what they saw in their parents' marriage or perhaps the marriages around them. And so it makes so much sense that they would then, you know, try other things like, you know, having some sort of committed relationship as opposed to a marriage. Um, it, it, but it's sad to see and I think that's, uh underneath this whole crisis that we have where we're just giving up on love and on marriage altogether. Yeah, I think there's two layers to it that I've seen in my life is one I don't think I'm capable or I wonder, am I capable of actually doing something that I've never seen? Like being committed, being faithful, truly having a love that lasts for my whole lifetime, decades and decades and then there's the fear of, or the question, would anybody want me, you know, am I too broken or too complicated or, or just not valuable enough that anyone would want to give that to me? So, it's both ways it's, can I give that to somebody and would somebody ever want to, or choose to give that to me? So, yeah, it's kind of two problems at the same time. It seems like. Yeah. No, I like the way you said that I remember, I think it was in college. I was able to put words to this feeling I had that you just mentioned the second part. At least that I felt like a gift that wasn't worth giving. And I felt like if I were to, you know, give myself to someone that eventually they would just give up on me and leave because they would realize like, oh you're really broken or oh, you, you know, you're not worth loving. And so I totally feel that felt that fear and I think so many people who've been through what we've been through, experience that as well. Yeah. And I think for me, there was definitely the sense of like a disillusionment about the word love as well. You know, hearing my parents say, oh, we love you, Tanya and we want what's best for you. But then feeling like this doesn't feel like love, this feels terrible. What, what's happened to me what's happened to our family feels the exact opposite of love. And so I remember in different relationships that I had that didn't go anywhere if the guy would ever start talking about love. I'd be like, don't even say love. I don't even want to hear that. That is not even in my vocabulary. It was just such a, just a reflection of, of how I felt and what I'd experienced. And yeah, it's quite, it's quite sad when I look back at the younger me who, but understandably who really felt like love is such a, a terrible thing and a fickle thing. Yeah. I couldn't agree more with you and I totally get where you're coming from, shifting to healing and growth. I'm curious, what were a few things that really helped you to, to heal and to cope with the pain that you have endured? I mean, the first one that comes to mind is counseling, but I was probably 30 before. I was really, really willing to talk about my experience and the painful parts of it. Um, before that I was just so nonchalant about. Yeah. Yeah. My parents divorced. Yeah. Yeah. This is the thing. Yeah. Yeah. Really kind of just trying to build those walls and keep, keep it distant from myself. So, yeah, when I think I was around 30 31 when I started to go to counseling and it was such a healthy, wonderful gift to finally have a place where I could tell somebody how I really felt without trying to downplay it or protect my parents or kind of feel ashamed of, of my story, but I could just lay it all out. It was incredibly healing. And so that was a huge, a huge step for me. And another thing that I found really helpful even before that, but looking back, I see how helpful it was, was being able to spend some time with healthy families. So I had one work colleague in particular who him and his wife, sort of just they weren't that much older than me, but they had a bunch of kids and kind of an open door policy in their home and they just let me be part of their life, whether it was grocery shopping, cooking, um hanging out on a Saturday. And so just, and if I was soaking it up watching how they dealt with their kids, how they treated each other. And that was a super healing uh restorative experience for me. So I still love hanging out with, with families and kids and kind of, I still am learning about what does it look like to really love your spouse and love your kids and love your parents from them. Beautiful. I love both those things and I found them helpful as well. And it's so interesting in the 90 plus interviews that we've done in this show at this point. Uh That's such a clear trend that spending time with healthy marriages and families is incredibly healing. Mhm. Yeah. And to me it just thinks what a gift it is if you have healthy marriage and family to, to open your home to people, um who you might think we don't have anything to show them. We're not the experts but man, what a gift it is to have that healthy, healthy family and marriage is not perfect but one that, that really is built on love and caring for one another. Yeah, I totally agree. It's a good challenge to everyone listening right now. Who has, you know, a good marriage, a healthy marriage, not a perfect one. Uh You can be such an inspiration, such a help to those of us who, you know, find that whole idea and that whole experience so foreign to us, it can truly be a training in how to love. It can be a school of love which which we greatly need if we want to go on and break that cycle and build those healthy relationships and hopefully a strong marriage in the future. Uh One thing that you've mentioned as well is that you found your relationship with God, incredibly healing. So I wanted to talk a little bit about that. How has that been healing for you? And what in particular have you done to find healing through that relationship? Yeah. Thanks for that. For sure. I didn't come to any faith. Until I was a late teenager. So for, you know, almost eight years, Paul following my parents um divorce, I didn't have any kind of faith connection or any relationship with God. And uh looking back, I can see how my coming to faith really brought this whole sense of connection and belonging that I'm not alone anymore that even though my parents don't understand or my friends might not understand, my sibling doesn't understand. At least God understands me. And that I think it was incredibly healing for me, just this awareness that I'm not alone. And then over the years, I think, you know, learning how to connect with God through prayer, through meditation and just the sense that I don't have to pretend with God. God's the one person that I can truly be open and honest with about every area of my life, whatever I'm struggling with, whatever I'm proud of or what I'm ashamed of that I don't have to hide myself from God. And that a sense of unconditional love and acceptance has been uh such a healing thing though. It didn't just happen overnight and it is still a process for me to really remind myself that I am loved by God. I am seen by him. So I think that was kind of maybe the slow burn of of healing has come through that being able to look to, to God for the love that I really need and long for beautiful And no, I could totally see how that is so healing and I love the word you use pretending. It's so interesting. I think so often that really describes the experience of a lot of young people who come from divorce or broken families is that we do feel the need to pretend in one way or another. Like we all often have these like almost multiple identities where we're one way with mom and one way with dad and maybe one way with relatives and one way with friends and it can be a lot to carry. And so uh talk about that a little bit more. What have you seen in your own life and the lives of people, you know, who've, you know, gone through this experience when it comes to pretending and then, you know, on the opposite end of that is like you said, being that like genuine, authentic self. Yeah, I mean, I think it is such an interesting dynamic that has I can see in my life and others is that you learn from a young age, I learned from a young age that rules were different at mom's house and dad's house expectations were different. I think many Children of divorced and separated parents would kind of become the caretaker for our parents or our siblings were kind of trying to think for me, it came from a fear of like if I don't keep them happy, they will leave me as well, I wouldn't have said it that way. But really, that's what my motivation was as a young girl. And so always trying to, to think ahead, what do they need? What do they want? How do I keep them happy? Never being able to relax into a situation. Never being able to be honest about what I was happy about or angry about or sad about what I needed. Always putting other people first. So that habits and that patterns, you know, it makes you a good friend. It makes you a good child because you're always easy to please. And you're always working really hard to keep other people happy. But it, it meant that I, nobody ever knew all of me. That's how I felt that I was, there was parts of me that were just unknown and un valued or un cared for. So mom saw certain things, dad saw certain things, grandma saw certain things, my teacher saw certain things my friend. But I guess I was afraid that if I revealed too much that I would be rejected. So I think that the kids from divorced families, we can be the chameleon. And the again, which maybe at the time, you just think this is what everybody does. But then later on, at least for me, I realized this is incredibly lonely and it's hard work. It's very stressful to always be trying to figure out what people want and be that person instead of simply being totally, it's exhausting like he said and, and that's what I experienced 100%. And yeah, needing to play all those different roles is so real. I um I've seen two trends in people like us who uh we, we've kind of become rescuers in a lot of senses, maybe not always, but I've seen it to be more likely in people like us. And underneath that I think is almost like a cry for help, like we want someone to rescue us. And so in a way, we're like trying to rescue everyone else. And uh and so I think it is really beautiful and helpful when you can make that switch to realize like it's not a bad thing to help other people. We're obviously not their savior. We can't like, you know, solve all their problems, take away all their pain, but it's not a bad thing to love and help people with healthy boundaries. Um But at the same time, if we continually ignore our own need for, for healing, for, you know, someone to, to help us to in a way rescue us without doing everything for us, which we'll touch on a little bit later. There, there can be so much growth, there can be so much healing when we just, you know, acknowledge that and seek out the right resources to, to heal. Yeah. And I think um for me, if the faith thing has been so helpful because it was finally one place where I could actually come as I am. I don't have to pretend because God knows it all like he knows everything about me every part of my life. So I didn't have to though there were many times I think where I did approach faith the same way I approached my other relationships, trying to imagine what God wanted me to do what the right answer was, what the acceptable thing was. But over the years, I have become more comfortable with letting him rescue me, you know, whatever that means, whether that's just giving me the, the love and affection I need or the support I need the emotional encouragement I need and all kinds of other, other parts of daily life. Yeah. That makes so much sense. Are there any um maybe practical examples, especially for people listening right now who don't believe in God or don't have any sort of faith? I'm just curious, like, how have you experienced that? Maybe in the last few months or last year, whatever time frame where it's been maybe a little bit more like, you know, you, you, you see God's hand in it, but it's not like this big booming voice from our love. Um Because I think that's sometimes what people imagine when they think of like God expressing its love for us is that we think it's like, you know, again, this miraculous experience, but so often what I've learned is it can be in the really simple, ordinary, everyday things that you can see, you can see as end. Yeah, I think, oh, my husband and I bought a house recently and, um, that was really as a first time thing for me. I've moved 20 times in my adult life, a very transient life style. And so this was a whole new idea. Marriage is brand new. But then also thinking of buying a home and when we, we put on offers and houses, they weren't accepted, we looked at places um and continue to pray that God would help us find a home and take care of us. And uh one particular time we had to move out of one place and into a new place and we tried to find a place to move into. We just could not find a rental place or anything and then just got a, a text out of the blue one day from a a friend saying, hey, are you guys looking for a place to stay? Because our tenants just moved out and we need some money to move into our place. And anyways, we ended up moving in like two days after their tenants moved out, it worked out completely like we had planned it though. We had not planned it. And, and to me, that was an example of God being like a father to me or a parent to me and caring for me doing something that I just could not figure out on my own even though I'm a fully grown person and I'm competent in every, in so many areas of life. But just seem like, uh, I couldn't sort it out without God without help and God took care of me and took care of me and my husband. So I don't know if that's what you're looking for, but that, to me is such an encouragement. Um, that I'm not alone in life, even in really practical things that have nothing to do with divorce just day to day living. No, no, I think that's beautiful. I love when like, faith has been more practical and I think it's a great example of it. And um, you know, there's, I think there's so many examples, but one of the ways that I've kind of seen God in my own life, at least the way he communicates to me is often through my desires. Like, like I have a desire to like, help someone to reach out to someone or, or do something like this whole nonprofit is an example of it. Like I took, you know, time to discern and think through like, is this actually what I'm supposed to do what God wants me to do? And it got, you know, the green light. And so, um but he really placed a heart desire in my heart to, to help people who come from towards and broken families. Um so he speaks to me through my desires, speaks to me through other people. Probably the most often, like someone will say something, especially if I'm struggling in some area, you know, a friend or one of my mentors will say something. It's like, dang, like that's exactly what I need to hear. And I don't even think you realized that's exactly what I need to hear. Um And then finally realizations, I don't know if that's the best word to use, but things will just kind of click or, you know, I thought will come to mind from like nowhere. And I'll be like, wow, OK, that's like kind of a key to whatever problem I'm facing or shuffle or whatever. And so um to people, I think um who yeah, maybe are foreign to this idea of like prayer, talking to God and things like that. Um A lot of these things can seem like coincidences and that's fair to think that. But I think when you see so many of these things happening again and again throughout your life, you start to realize like, really like, is this, is this really a coincidence? So, um so a lot of beauty there and kind of going back to this whole faith aspect of healing. So, you know, like you said that um desire to belong so often we feel that we don't belong because our family fell apart and we don't belong in our own families, like where in the world are we going to belong if we don't belong there? And so, um, so I want to go deeper on that topic. But before I do any final thoughts, well, when you're talking about the way that you, you know, coincidences or things that just become clear to you, I find God often or I, I find a lot of what would you say, Victor watching TV, where I'm seeing characters interact and I'm thinking, oh, that's like I see a parent being kind to a child or I see a friend showing compassion to someone and it really becomes sort of like a spiritual experience for me where I think that is what love looks like. That is how I can be loving to people in my life or, or while that person actually was loving to me, it helps me reinterpret my life sometimes through giving me some more examples of, of what healthy relationships look like or, or just sometimes, you know, you're like, I can relate to that character and they've taken a risk. So I'm gonna take a risk. So somehow. Um yeah, just I think there are lots of connections in daily life if you have the eyes to see them um where it might be some type of faith and a spiritual connection. So, yeah, I'm not sure that's really coming through the way, but nevertheless, there you have it. Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes sense. And I appreciate you sharing that. Um aside from your own story, what have you seen that helps people like us who come from doors or broken families to heal from the trauma we've endured in our personal lives and in our relationships, I think for sure, the relational connection with people where it's not like when people are open and honest with me about whatever area they do not have to be from a divorced or separated family. But when they're honest about their struggles, whether it's with finances or their relationships or their kids or their work or their studies or something, when people are open about what they're going through, then I feel such a sense of relief like, oh, they don't have everything together. So that gives me permission to then be open and honest about my struggles. And so so when friends or groups of people can be honest about their struggles, I just think it, it opens the door for deeper connection, which is what, what everybody longs for. So I think that that's kind of a very general but very helpful um, thing that I've seen is it gives people courage to then go, ok. I could talk about my stuff if they can talk about their stuff as well. Yeah, it's so refreshing when people just speak in like a real way. You know, this whole idea of real talk. It's like so so popular now, especially with these different podcasts like Joe Rogan, whether you love him or hate him. Uh, it's so, it's so interesting to listen because, you know, we're talking about, like, real topics and real issues and real problems that people face in a way that's like unfiltered, which is like you said, it's very refreshing. Yeah. You had mentioned before to how, you know, faith had played such a big role in your own healing. I'm curious, you know, how have you seen that happened in the lives of the people that you've led or walked with, who come from divorce or broken families? Yeah, I mean, what I love about faith and people's faith journey is no, no, too identical. And so what might really have been really healing to me does nothing for somebody else but vice versa. And so I love seeing other people, the things that stand out to them or not. But I think to summarize, I think the community aspect of faith uh is huge for many people. Um The sense of belonging so often the kids of divorce or separated parents, we don't have anywhere to go for the holidays. We don't have anybody who celebrates our life accomplishments with us. We don't have anywhere to go on summer holidays or we don't. Yeah, we kind of feel like we might be missing out on a lot of things that other people just take for granted. And so I've seen faith communities be a real place of, of input and service for, for Children from divorced separated families because it's a sense of you're one of us. You belong here, you have something to offer as well as something to receive. And I think I've seen a lot of people really flourish as they find a place of giving. So maybe a guy or gal gets to work with the kids club and all of a sudden the little kids are just mobbing them and loving on them and all of a sudden they're like, people wanna be around me and there's so much energy that comes from that or somebody goes, wow, I can fix the computers for the, the seniors in my, my community or my church. And all of a sudden they have something to offer and they have these sort of grandparent figures. And so this idea of like as we give to others, we receive so much, I think it can be so healing and, and a big part of what family can offer us, but that we might have missed out on if we, if we didn't have that beautiful. And I, I think there's a great lesson in that, that I'm learning from you. And that is um if you want those healthy, beautiful relationships, if you wanna find great friends, you have to be that for other people, you have to be that great friend. And it's something I think that we're always working on, we can improve upon always. But um but I think, yeah, like you said it almost begins to attract people to you. When you start to be that great friend, start to give, start to love, start to, you know, be selfless, like put other people's needs above your own. Of course, assuming in a healthy way with healthy boundaries. But um but I think there's a powerful lesson in that. Mhm And it is so affirming to realize that that you or that I have something to offer. And um I think for many years, I was so insecure and so afraid to take any risks of offering something because if I offer a bit of myself, even, it's just a pie that I baked or an idea for a conversation that I would get rejected. And I was so afraid of that, that I just, I never offered anything. So it took me a long time. Um And a lot of people inviting me in and asking me and saying, hey, Tanya, do you want to cook a pie for this? Do you wanna uh help do this project? Do you want to come to our party? Do you want to? So that invitation has been such a helpful thing for me in my healing journey. Just this idea that other people think I have something to offer. That was a foreign idea to me for so long. So I think I've, I've learned from that and it's benefited me so much and I try to operate that way as well. To really have an open, I don't know, an open mindset where there's always room for more people and it can be challenging at time because it's fun to hang out with people that I know and love. It's fun to, you know, have these tight friendships. But, but I think my experience of rejection and abandonment and isolation and stuff from my family has given me eyes to see people who might be on the fringes or on the outside or, or not like the coolest or most popular and to go, they're just as worthy of being included as anybody. And I wanna actually find ways to, to include them. Yeah, that makes so much sense. And I, I think it's a good place to start if you know, people are especially struggling socially and, and that's a common struggle as you know, for people like us who come from doors or broken families. And, um, and I've seen people make incredible ways and like grow a ton in that area, but a good place to start if you're kind of at the beginning of that journey is, um with those people, like you said, who may be a little bit more on the fringes or rejected or not as popular or cool or good looking or whatever, that can be a great place to start to build those friendships and of course, love them throughout. But I think that may feel a little bit safer as well. And I like what you touched on too. How there is this risk factor when we love, when we put ourselves out there, when we give that we might be misunderstood, or people might reject us in a sense. And I think it's important to acknowledge that. I know I've mentored young people who, you know, have experienced that sort of rejection where it's like, you know, they're trying to love, they're trying to be a great friend in a relationship and then they're misunderstood by a friend, they're rejected by someone they wanted to, you know, date or be with. And so it can be really challenging. But I think there's something so powerful and just that action of taking the risk. I think that makes you a better, stronger, more virtuous person. Um And in the end, in the moment, it's really painful and can feel debilitating. But in the end, I think you're going to become this again, better, stronger person. So, yeah, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that risk factor and kind of putting your neck out there and opening yourself up to potentially being rejected in, in smaller, perhaps pick ways. Well, as we're talking, one thing that stood out to me was just, I, I think it's pretty common for those of us who are divorced, separated families to kind of try to make things like black and white all or nothing. So this person is good, this person is bad this relationship is gonna be the one that I'm looking for or this one is gonna be terrible and sort of the idea of extreme thinking, like, and I, I can relate to that. I, I think it comes from sort of self protection, definitely from a self protection. So I wanna see if there's a problem before it ever becomes a problem so I can reject it and run away and stay safe. But what that means is that I become so afraid of anything that might be a danger that I never even let myself take a tiny risk, whether that's a job interview or someone that I wanna date back when I was single or, or just a friendship that I wanted to pursue or I mean, it's so many different categories. So it's been helpful for me to, to try to think, ok, can I instead of seeing everything is all good or all bad to try to see more nuance in that and to go? Ok, what's a, what's an appropriate risk to take in this situation instead of seeing risk is bad and dangerous and comfort as like the final goal or, you know, certainty as the final goal to go. What's a small step that I could take? What's a small risk that might help me to build that, that strength and that courage that you mentioned. And um and what's an appropriate amount of vulnerability to share? Because I think uh once I started trying to, once I started becoming more aware of my emotions and, and understanding that like, healthy relationships do involve emotional vulnerability. I was just so inexperienced that I just shared everything I would just like lay it all out there and overwhelm people with either my, my hopes and my expectations or my fears and it kind of freaked people out because I was really trying to give them all of me. Like I want to show you everything about me so that if you're gonna reject me, you'll do it now. And like it was just out of step with what a healthy relationship is or how relationships develop a little bit at a time. So, so I think I see a connection there. I don't know. What do you think? Yeah. No. Excellent points. And I totally agree with you that just touching on the last point, there is a temptation, right? When we're learning to kind of go from this place of just like sharing nothing to then share everything. And like you said, it can be overwhelming for the people in our lives who are, who do generally want to love us. But like you said, when something you know, is healthy, it grows gradually, like if you think of plants and trees and grass, like whatever, they usually don't just sprout up overnight. There's some exceptions to this. But um, it usually takes time, like, you know, hours, weeks, months, years, even for something to grow to blossom into its full potential. And so in the same way, like you're saying, relationships are like that. And so it's important that we kind of go at that slow rate. And I've seen this especially in romantic relationships for people like us is that we, you know, I tend to kind of jump in like head first where it's like, well, you know, I wanna, I really am attracted to you. I want to be with you. And so I'm just gonna give you everything and tell you everything and um it creates this really, it can create a really unhealthy dynamic in the relationship. Whereas if you kind of graduate the girl, like you said, there can be so much more peace, so much more joy and such a healthier dynamic in their relationship. And so such a great point there. I wanted to touch on one other thing you said too that we can become so obsessed with building this safe world where the small safe world where we control everything, where we mitigate all risk, where we're in no danger of hurt or harm that it just like destroys us. Like, like it makes our hearts hard like CS Lewis, you know, in that famous quote, um He, you know, he says to love it all is to be vulnerable. Like we cannot protect ourselves from being hurt from being harmed. The only place we can is really heaven or hell you know, and so in this, in this world, we're going to be hurt, we're going to be harmed and it's actually more dangerous to kind of put ourselves out of that possibility than it is to allow that to happen potentially. And so I've seen that too in my own life, like thinking back how, you know, I keep maybe my group of friends really small or keep the interactions I had like with different people really, really small. So again, I had, I built this like small world that I controlled, that was felt at least, um and going beyond that felt really overwhelming and scary. But once I pushed through that, and I've seen this in a lot of the people that we mentor through this ministry. Once you push through that, it's scary and overwhelming at first. But, but you learn how to navigate it, you then feel so much more free that you then realize like it's so much better to, you know, maybe learn how to, like you said, in a healthy way, mitigate some horrible risk, but allow for those appropriate risks in relationships. And that will lead you to this place where again, you feel free, you're able to not try to control everything but let things happen and adapt as they do. And um it, it's, yeah, there's so much we can say here but that freedom uh that you experience when you push through that fear, through that overwhelm. Um is, is incredible. Mhm. I have a fantastic example about that in my own life where uh I was at a, a seminar for a month and uh one of my mentors pulled me aside one day and said, Tanya, I just want to ask you something that I've been noticing. I noticed that you're one of the very first people to leave at the end of the evening activities. And I'm just curious about that because I had to walk about 20 minutes back to the dormitory where I was staying. And at first I thought it was just no big deal. Like why does it matter who leaves when or whatever? But as I chewed on it a bit, I realized, and I said to her, I said, well, if I am in control of when I leave, then I'm also in control of who I walk with. And I don't have to fear being left behind. And so she encouraged me or she challenged me. OK, for the rest of their time here, would you be willing to try an experiment to not be the first person to leave to actually wait and see if you will be left behind or not. And it was a small risk because if I got left behind, it was fine. I just walk home 20 minutes by myself. This, I was already doing that anyway. So I was just doing it a little bit earlier in the evening. And so I thought, OK, I can do that. I will see if this fear of, of being left behind is an actual fear or if it's just a perceived fear, is it based in reality or is it just my own thinking? And that I'm convinced that nobody will look out for me or invite me or whatever. And so I took her challenge up and sure enough as she predicted, I never got left behind. I always had someone noticing. I was still there. Hey ta you're welcome back. Let's go together. And it, it, it brought freedom just like you were saying that that actually some of the things that I'm afraid are gonna happen to me are not actually reality. They probably won't happen to me. But even if they did, they're not that big of a deal. And I just, yeah, something really changed for me. Um As a result of that observation from my friend and her challenge and then my experiment with whether or not I'd be left behind. Love that and maybe that's a challenge we can issue to everyone listening right now is, you know, if there's a small risks that you can take that the consequence, if things do go wrong isn't huge, like take those risks. Um I love the, the word experiment that you use. I think that's so helpful because it's not permanent. It's not a life sentence. It's something that you can just try out and, and if it doesn't go well, go a different route. So great advice there elsewhere you said that there's, it's important that we don't look to God kind of going back to the faith question. It's important that we don't look to God to kind of do all the work for us that we need to, we need to be putting in the work ourselves. Talk about that a little bit. I mean, there, it would be a really, it could be a really great conversation. You know, what's God's responsibility? What's my responsibility? Is it all God's fault? Is it all my fault? But I think one thing that I realized growing up with divorced parents, I often felt powerless as a child. I had to go to moms when she wanted, go to dad's. I had to do this. I had to do that. I didn't have a voice. I felt like nobody really, my opinion didn't matter to anybody. Uh, my choices could be, you know, negated just, you know, very easily and, and I realized that for much of my faith life, I, I thought God had that same view that he was just gonna do things so do things for me. He was gonna heal me or he was gonna give me a job or he was gonna give me a spouse or he was gonna, and as a result, I just always, I felt like I had no say in my life, I was just being pulled around by God and his whims, you know, often they were good but sometimes they didn't feel good. And I didn't know that I actually had this idea of agency. Like I can make choices. I have strength and power within me that my voice matters. So I think, yeah, for me, at least as a child of divorce, it was a real important thing for me to learn that, that my ideas, even if they're wrong, like are worth being heard by God and other people that I don't always just have to have the right answer. But that, that I have choices and that my choices will be respected. So I think that's what I'm coming to with like the faith thing and the God thing is that, of course, God wants a beautiful life for every person, but he's not just gonna shazam, it's not just gonna appear without me participating with him because that would make me again, just sort of a pawn being moved around by him. And I think that God wants more than that, you know, he wants people who actually can make choices and who can learn and grow and that have, have responsibility for their life, you know, not on their own and not God saying ha ha you made a bad choice. Look at you suffer now, which also I think sometimes God gets that, that put on him, but that's not the way that I've experienced. God. It's a collaboration. It's something that, you know, I think any healthy relationship is that way, like whether it's a friendship or whether it's, um you know, a marriage, it truly is a collaboration. It's not one person doing it. It's not, it's both of you together. And I remember growing up, I would see relationships like that where one person was way more interested in the other person than, like a guy was more interested in a girl than the other way around. And it was like everything was on the guy to build a relationship and the girl was like almost doing nothing because she didn't really want to be with him. And so um so I think in this and yeah, the relationships can turn unhealthy in that sense. But you're saying that yeah, it's, it's a collaboration. It's both ways. It's two ways. It's both people contributing, collaborating and that applies to a relationship with God to I heard this awesome quote from uh the financial guru Dave Ramsey. He uh he said that God feeds the birds, but he doesn't throw the worms in the nest. I think that's so true and helpful. It's like, yeah, God will provide for you. But like you're saying, we need to collaborate with him. We need to work alongside of him. We can't just wait for him to, you know, snap his fingers and fix everything and miracles do happen. Like I don't, I want to acknowledge that but uh that's not the norm, that's not what I think most of us can expect. And so we do need to again do it alongside of him. And uh and I think there's a lot of beauty in that because like you said that, that uh agency, that sense of healthy control that we have and that is uh makes us better, makes us stronger. Definitely, so good shifting gears a little bit. Um It's often difficult for people like us to talk about our experiences with our parents, divorce or separation or just, you know, really broken dysfunctional marriage. Why is that? And what's the solution to that problem? That's a great question. But I think it is so true. I remember when I started really thinking about my parents' divorce, I was really eager to hear from other people about their experience. And I would, as soon as I kind of feel like the divorced and separated parents, kids were kind of like living incognito, we're kind of hiding it. We're kind of like trying to be below the radar. And I remember having realizing I had a roommate for a year whose parents were divorced, but we never once talked about our parents or our family. And it so yeah, I guess just to say, I think we the I I don't always know why. I mean, I think there's the shame of what's wrong with me. There's the what if people reject me or think I have a bad family or look down on my parents because why couldn't they keep their marriage together? I think there's a, the fears of, um, if I start talking about it, it's gonna be really painful and I'm gonna have to acknowledge some of that or people are gonna think I'm damaged somehow. So then nobody will want to date me or be my friend or, yeah, I mean, those are some of the things that come to mind and in terms of how do we fix it. I don't know. I just think those of us who feel the, the courage and the strength or maybe are further down the road of kind of processing our experience. I think we just got to be courageous and talk about it. That's why I'm so thrilled for this invitation to be on this podcast to just say I'm, I want to talk about my story if it can help other people. But also because it helps me every time I can talk about what happened, I'm gaining some new insight into what I've been through, how it shaped me uh for good and for bad. And I think it's taking me further out of this place of, of shame or fear and isolation into more connection, which is really what I long for. So, yeah, those are a few thoughts. Yeah, I, I've seen all of those play out in my own life and the lives of the people that we serve and I think a few other things too that we've seen is it's you touch on this, like how it can be painful to talk about this topic. And, uh, I think there is kind of related to that, this comfort in the sense that we're just so used to the pain and the problems in our lives that we don't really think anything of them. And so, you know, we tend to just think, well, this is the way it's always been. Why would I give it any special attention? Why I don't that this is kind of my normal. And so it, you know, it might never even hit us that, oh, maybe we should get some help here, maybe we should talk about this. And I think as a culture especially, I know you talk about this, we've, you know, normalized divorce to such an extent that we tend, we don't think of it as a trauma for the Children. We think of it as like, oh, well, it's just kind of the shift. It's like your family just changes. That's it. Um, even though the research is very clear and if you listen to people who come from divorce, separated families, it's like, no, this is a very traumatic thing to go through for the far majority of them. But, but again, there's just a sense of like, well, this is how my life has always been. Why would I give this any special attention. That's one point. The other one I think too is that we love and care about our parents. We don't want to hurt them or harm them. Um, especially if things are really dramatic going through the divorce. Um, things are really dramatic. Maybe in the aftermath of it, there's been maybe just a lot of pain. We don't want to rock the boat, we don't want to hurt them and we might even be led to believe by well intentioned people often well intentioned people that, um, we should be happy that this is for the best, like that sort of gas lighting where it's like, you know, oh, you feel hurt? Well, you shouldn't be hurt. Your parents are happy, aren't you happy for your parents sort of thing? It's like, no, I can, I can feel hurt by this and still, you know, want the best for my parents. And so, so, yeah, I think those are a few other factors as well that make us just kind of like, not talk about it. Not want to rock the boat. Mhm. Yeah. I definitely, I mean, I resonate with both of those, with the one about it's so normal for us. I can definitely see that in my life and see how I kind of just become calloused to, like I had to become callous or I felt I had to become callous to the pain and just be like, yeah. Yeah, it's just that it's not how it is because nothing was going to change. I had no power to change that part of my life. So it was either accepted or suffer. So I just, yeah, and I couldn't acknowledge that how painful it was. So I just was like, yeah, it's not a big deal but you know what's helped me part of my healing. And I think it was a counselor who suggested this to me is I was 10 when my parents split up and I, I stayed with my dad, but my counselor suggested I, I take note of 10 year olds in my life. Like, did I know any 10 year olds? What were 10 year olds actually? Like, what, what, what was their capacity emotionally, you know, with doing their homework or, or caring for themselves? They, you know, could they take a bath or do their laundry or like, what was a 10 year old actually capable of and to try to look at them through the eyes of, wow, what if your parents just split up and you had to now take care of yourself and you had to have this emotional, you know, this really difficult emotional struggle. And so I, I did, I started looking at little 10 year olds and thinking, oh, they're, they're so small and they're so cute and they're so incapable, you know, there's, they need so much help and they, for them to lose one parent or to have their, you know, their parents' marriage break up and to be alone or rejected, abandoned in the way that, that they would be, that I was, that would be so hard. And through that I found the ability to have compassion on myself actually. And to go what, what I've experienced, Tanya, what you experienced was really terrible. It was really worthy of grief and sadness and not just something to be brushed aside. And so, yeah, so that was a, that was a real turning point for me and, and my ability to have compassion on myself and to kind of like let myself feel some of those feelings and have some of that process, some of that experience. Yeah. And so you can move on. I think that's an important part too. It's like, especially for people listening who just maybe they want to like throw up when they hear all this like self help stuff of like self love and grief and all that stuff which I get. I I'm kind of like that in some ways. But, but I think that the point is that so we don't stay where we are, we don't stay stuck that we can move on through life that we're not, you know, constantly dealing with these things. I know divorce is such an interesting trauma though because there are usually continual effects and continual difficulties and challenges that come from it. For example, you know, maybe you know, the divorce itself and everything that led up to, it was painful. But then in the aftermath, like we talked about, you have to deal with, you know, mom and dad being at your graduation, different life events, holidays, like you mentioned, uh things like that or, you know, maybe a situation where further down the line, your parents get sick and then it's like instead of their spouse taking care of them, you're the one who needs to take care of them in, in, in exaggerated role, right? So, so there's all these sorts of additional challenges that do come through. But the point of healing is not to stay stuck forever. It's to move beyond those things. And these tools that we're mentioning, of course, are some of them can continue to help us grow and become better, stronger people. But um but I think it's important for people, especially who kind of like are repulsed by this idea of like healing and working through trauma. Um to know that there is an end game, there is something that we're working towards. And uh and I love that you mentioned that tactic about, you know, kind of looking at the 10 year old that, that makes so much sense and it is, is really helpful because I think when we can have compassion, it might be easier for us to have compassion on other people than it is to have compassion on ourselves. And um I think, yeah, to move forward. I think it is that healthy. Wow. I've been through, you've been through some hard stuff and you, you're doing really well to be able to also look at it that way and to really take stock of how much we have grown or, you know, and how far we have come and, um, that we can do this. So I think it's both a pep talk and like a little cry session sometimes and they go hand in hand because, you know, we've been damaged or hurt by our parents um marriage, but that's not the only thing about us. Um But to deny, that is also not helpful because then you're back to the hiding parts of yourself, denying who you really are just trying to show the good stuff so that people will love you and, and that ends up being quite lonely. It's been lonely for me. Yeah, me too. No, I, I couldn't agree more with that and, and I love that mindset of uh, we're just, we're in training, we're continually developing, we're kind of becoming people. We're becoming the people that we hopefully want to be, that we're made to be um through all these experiences in life, through the pain, through the traumas, through the, the incredible growth through the, you know, like you said, the trajectory that we can see ourselves on that, that is like really, really helpful and we're not the good, just the good. We're not just the bad. We're both. And, um, and I think if you can, you know, kind of see that and accept that in yourself, um, you're going to be a lot more at peace when things go really well or things go really poorly and so, so much good stuff there. I just, towards the end of our conversation, I'm just curious, you touched on this already actually a bit. But do you have anything else to add? You know, what are some ways that, that you've seen divorce affects the way that people like us view um, marriage, family, life, home, belonging in, in general anything dad. Oh, I mean so much. But I think, I think the first thing to acknowledge is that divorce has impacted all of those things. And for me, at least every one of those things you mentioned marriage, home, family, they are all I'm looking at all of them through the lens of what I experienced. And so for me, it's kind of looking back into the past trying to understand my story is so that I can clean those glasses off and I can see not just what the terrible things are but what the beauty could be. You know, like people, most people from intact families find most of them find family a very positive term. But for me, family is kind of, I cringe even though I know I'm not supposed to, I know family is supposed to be amazing. And everyone's supposed to want to love to get together. I, I still have so much like inner turmoil when I think about family because it just reminds me of what I don't have, what I've lost, who's not there, who doesn't get along and um but having recently gotten married, I, I am trying to, to, to reframe how I see family that it's not only negative. Same with marriage, same with belongings, same with all of those things. So yeah, I think for me it's been just to acknowledge my experience has shaped all of those things. And if I'm not thinking about them, then they're just, I'm carrying what's I'm carrying my old way of thinking with me and it might be damaging or getting in the way of me having the things that I want, the connection, the family, the belonging. So yeah, I think it's all interconnected, right? And those expectations are key like researchers show uh talk about how if you want a great marriage, for example, um healthy expectations uh for your marriage are really, really important. That's one of the ingredients and one of the keys to having a great marriage. And so like you're saying, if we expect our spouse to cheat on us, if we expect our marriage to be full of conflict and drama, if we expect um eventually to be abandoned, then we'll certainly act in a way that anticipates that happening, which in a sort of backwards way then plays a role in bringing that about. And so this is serious, like this is not some neat little thought experience like, no, this if, if you expect that if you ignore the patterns in your own life, if you act out of those, it can maybe even unconscious expectations that can then lead you down a path that you don't want to go down and even consciously don't want to go out and you say, I never want to repeat what I saw, you know, in my parents' marriage, I never want to get divorced. Um So we really do need to adjust those things and that's why this is so serious. It's not just some cute little self help thing. It's like, no, if we want to live the lives that we long for, if we want to have the relationships that we long for, um we, we really need to dig in here and at least be aware so that we can develop the virtues and, you know, kind of work against those maybe tendencies that we've had in the past to the point where we can overcome them and again, build those virtues that then make it possible to have that beautiful relationship to learn to truly trust and be vulnerable to, yeah, just live life fully alive, not always being terrified and afraid of what might happen next. And this is why I think friendships community are so vital to growth in the story. That I told you about my mentor, challenging me and my kind of wrong thinking about my fear of abandonment. I never would have figured that out on my own or I don't, I don't think I would have figured that out. And if I had just had these walls around myself, I don't need anybody. I'm totally fine. Everything's good. She would never have had the chance to speak that into me and to encourage me. And so I think, um, what I find hopeful but also quite sobering is that those of us who need the support and connection of others like I do as a child of divorce often have things that get in the way, you know, the fears that get in the way. And so sometimes it feels like we're trapped by our own fear, you know. And so I really appreciate what you're saying about like there are ways forward but it's gonna take some courage and it's gonna take some vulnerability. Um, and some self honesty to go. How can I change the things that are no longer helping me? The self protection, the isolation, the jumping to conclusions, the assuming that I'm gonna be abandoned. Those might have helped me when I was 12 or 14. But at my age they're not actually helping me anymore. They're actually keeping me from what I want. So, yeah, it's important stuff. It's good stuff. It's hard but it's, it's so valuable, so worthwhile. Yeah. And we could say that maybe, maybe this is a little bit of an exaggeration, but growth only happens in relationship or in community. Perhaps another way to say it would be the biggest growth. The most substantial growth will only happen in community in relationship with other people, whether that's a mentor or a friend or you know, someone else in your life because that's what I've seen too, like on my own, I've been able to grow in some ways. But when I add in like my relationship with God, when I add in my friendships, when I add in my mentorships, and I add in my own marriage, it's like, yeah, that is where the biggest growth in my life. That's where the most healing has happened. Mhm Yeah. And that's where we can also give gifts to our friends and the people that we love by encouraging them, by asking them some of the hard questions and really listening to their answers by will being willing to sit with them in those places of pain or sadness or disappointment and like let them also chew on it so that they can move forward. So it's, it's not just about me, it's also about what do I have to offer, which, you know, it's really, it's a gift to be part of a community of friends and to so hopefully be part of the healing uh that we want in our own lives. Tanya, I've really appreciated the conversation. And before we close out, please tell us a little bit about your book and how people can get that and find you online. Yeah. So in 2017, I wrote a book called Come Home Laughing. Uh a novel for Adult Children of Divorce. And it's available on Amazon to search Tael lions or Come home Laughing. I really wanted to tell the story of Children of divorce and their adult Children of divorce and their experience. Um Some of the things that have really helped me uh learning about emotions, learning about grief, learning about trust. Um But tell it in a story format so that um that it's accessible and interesting and people hopefully relatable that in that book, there'll be some character that you can relate to if you grew up with divorced or separated parents. And then I'm also on Facebook and Instagram as Tanya Lyons author. So I love to, I try to post um you know, content that is helping people reflect on their experience and encouraging us to keep moving forward together. Thank you so much for being here again. I appreciate sharing your story and the wisdom you've gained over the years. I uh I know we're all better for it just in closing. I want to give you the final word. What words of encouragement would you give to someone who feels broken? You feels stuck in life because of their parents', divorce because of their broken family Yeah, to you, I would say the same things I would say to myself is what happened. It's significant. It's, it's terrible. It's worth being sad and upset about and yet it's not the only thing about you. It's not even the most important thing about you. And I would encourage you even as I encourage myself to, to find some people who can help you move forward so that you don't miss out on the beautiful life that is awaiting you and that the people who love you and people you love don't miss out on who you are. If you want to pick up Tanya's book, just click on the link in the show notes to get that. And if you come from a divorce or broken family, I have a question for you. How is your parents, divorce or your broken family affecting you today? It might be trickier to answer that than it seems. And if your answer is, I don't really know or you don't understand the depth of it, you're not alone, that's actually very common. But in the words of one therapist, when it comes to experiencing healing, naming how you've been harmed is about 70% of the battle. Our new assessment will help you name and diagnose your Brokenness. So you can heal it at its roots, not just treat the symptoms and build the life and relationships that you desire. So if you want to become the best version of yourself. You want to find the love, happiness and freedom that you long for and you want to avoid repeating the cycle of dysfunction and divorce. Then you need to heal. And the first step to healing is naming and diagnosing the wound to help do that. Take our free confidential and research based assessment. Just go to my broken family dot com, answer the questions there and then you'll view your results again. That's my broken family dot com. Or just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them and always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

#094: Are You Trying to Outrun Your Trauma?

How have you dealt with the trauma of your parents’ divorce or broken family? 

After enduring her parents’ divorce, her mom’s alcoholism, her dad’s absence, and her stepmom’s abuse, today’s guest tried to outrun her trauma through busyness, accomplishments, and perfectionism. 

Before long, she went from repressing her emotions and saying “I’m fine” to “I need help.” That began her healing, which we discuss, plus:

• How she doubted her ability to be a good wife and mother

• How she grew up faster than her peers from intact families, making it difficult to relate to them

• When are anxiety or depression drugs necessary and when are they used inappropriately?

Join the Course Waitlist

Take the My Broken Family Assessment

Share Your Story

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Her story

• Her email: alana1201@gmail.com

• How to heal from trauma and break the cycle of shame | Dr. Peter Attia

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As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you've experienced the trauma of your parents', divorce or your family falling apart. I have a question for you. How have you dealt with it? How have you dealt with it? In other words, what have you done in response to the trauma itself and the pain and the problems it's brought into your life. My guest today endured her parents' divorce, her mom's alcoholism, her dad's absence and even her stepmom's abuse. So what was her response? She tried to outrun her trauma through busines, through accomplishments and perfectionism and it worked for a while, but eventually it caught up with her. Now, thankfully, she went from repressing her emotions and saying, I'm fine to saying I need help. She then began to seek healing which we dive into. In this episode. We also discussed how she feared and doubted her ability to be a good wife and mother because she never saw that growing up how she felt like she grew up faster than her peers from intact families making it difficult to relate to them. We discuss situations where anxiety or depression, drugs are necessary in situations where they're used inappropriately. We talk about how authentic love is healing and why she's even grateful for all the challenges she's endured. And she even has a really beautiful message to her parents. Keep listening. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation or broken marriage so you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panelli. This is episode 94. If you found this podcast helpful in navigating the pain and the problems from your parents divorce and even finding healing. I'm thrilled to announce that we have a new resource that's going to help you even more. We'll be releasing two video courses. The first is all about trauma. It's titled Broken to Whole Tactics to Heal from your parents', divorce or broken marriage. And it answers what is trauma, how does trauma in general but also the trauma of your parents', divorce or dysfunctional family affect you again to the science, even the neurobiology of it. It's fascinating stuff. What can you do to heal from it? So you can avoid repeating that cycle in your own life. And so much more of the course is actually taught by a trauma therapist with over 15 years of experience helping people to heal from trauma. And the second course is all about how to confidently help someone from a divorce or broken family. It answers questions like what struggles do Children of divorce and dysfunction face. What should you say? Not say do and not do in order to help them, how do you start those difficult conversations? What if they seem fine? And there's some special tips for parents and so much more. And that course is actually taught by me. The content is based on a lot of research but also restored article that ranks top three on Google when someone searches a term, like how do I help a friend who's going through their parents divorce and that receives over 3000 views each month. So more details coming soon, especially that title of the second course and the official launch date. So stay tuned for that. And if you'd like to join the waitlist to get notified first and be given a special advanced access, just go to restored ministry dot com slash courses, again, restored ministry ministry, singular dot com slash courses or just click the link in the show notes. And by doing that, you also get a bonus on building healthy relationships and a strong marriage as a child of divorce who also experienced a traumatic stepparent situation. Alana spent much of her young adult life striving for perfection and success in all areas of life throughout her healing process. She earned a degree in secondary education from Penn State University and married the love of her life, Nick during their junior year of college, they currently live near Pittsburgh Pier where Alana works as a youth minister and outreach coordinator at her parish Alan and Nick are expecting their first baby soon and cannot be more excited to be parents. Now, a quick disclaimer, Alana is a Catholic Christian. So we talk a little about God and faith if you don't believe in God, this episode is still for you. I'm so glad that you're here. I know you're gonna relate a lot with Alana's story. Even if you were to skip or take out the God part, you're still going to benefit from this episode. So my challenge to you is just listen with an open mind. Also, Alana and I are obviously not doctors or psychologists or psychiatrists. So our discussion about taking drugs for anxiety and depression is not meant in any way to tell you what to do for your specific situation. So with that, let's dive in Alana. Welcome to the show. Thanks so much for doing this. Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here. I read your story on our blog and we'll make sure to link to that in the show notes. So if you could check that out as well, and I knew that, you know, we need to have you on the show. So it's great to have you. And so diving right in uh how old were you when your parents separated and divorced? So I was about either five or six uh at some point during kindergarten. And then I just remember things in my life kind of changing quickly after that. But honestly, when it comes to like the divorce itself, I don't really remember much. I remember being pulled into like my guidance counselor's office and then reading me this like divorcing Dinosaurs book and I'm like, what the heck is this? And then little did I know? Yeah. Ok. I've never, I've never heard of the divorced dinosaur book. Uh Do you have any memory of what? That's like, I'm curious. So my the guidance counselor's office was like, totally groovy like lava lamps everywhere, like beans tapestries. So I just remember being mesmerized by that and then being sit down with this like divorcing dinosaurs book and the kids' parents I think are going through a divorce and it's like a children's book that, you know, is used to help convey the idea of divorce to kids. Honestly, I just remember being distracted by the lava lamp but then afterwards I was like, oh, why was I pulled out of class individually? Like for that and just kind of being like confused, like why was this book being read to me? Yeah. No, it's, it's a sad scene for sure. And I think a lot of times, you know, the people who put resources like that together have good intentions, but it can totally miss the mark. You know, in a way what I've seen with a lot of those resources, they like try to normalize this divorce and try to make it seem like it's this, oh, it's just like a different phase of your family. It's like, no, actually your family is like, breaking apart and, and in some ways it's like dying and so trying to make a child, like, understand it. Like you'd make them understand how food grows or how, you know, where your grandma and grandpa live. Like things like that. It, it's not, not that easy. Yeah, I feel like that was definitely a big intention of like the authors of the book. And yeah, definitely looking back on that and reflecting on it, I remember being little and having like therapists or counselors say, you know, this is OK, this isn't your fault. And I'm like, OK, I get that but like why is it happening and why does it hurt so much? Just like you said, I feel like especially in today's culture, divorce or just like relationship issues in general are very normalized when really, when you look at it, it's like that's not how life and how relationships were meant to be. Yeah, so true. And I, I love the way you said that I might be adding a few words here. But it's like if it isn't a big deal, why does it hurt so much? Mhm And so as much as you're comfortable sharing, yeah. Take us deeper into that. Like what happens um in your family? Yeah. So at some point, I want to say either during kindergarten or the summer after, um, we spent, yeah, I think that summer after kindergarten, my mom and my younger brother and I, his name is Brendan. He's three years younger than me. We lived in our family friends like Den. Um, and then shortly after that, we got our own townhouse a few minutes away from, uh, where we had all lived previously. And then at that point I think we would, like, see our dad, like two nights a week and then every other weekend. And that was kind of the case for like most of my childhood up through, like high school things were like, ok, after they had split prior to them splitting, all I really remember was just arguing a lot about, I don't even know what I have one vivid memory of. I can't remember which parent but one of them, like, grabbed me, ran to the bathroom, locked the door while the other one's like pounding on the door. So kind of scary. Yeah, throughout childhood, uh, they just kind of stayed separated and I do kind of have to pat my parents on the back here a little bit in terms of after the divorce, the way the two of them interacted with each other for the most part when we were around was very respectable. Um, like they were civil with each other and I feel like they did for the most part prioritize my and like my brother's needs, which was great. Um I, yeah, I feel like a lot of that started to change though when my dad remarried. So he started dating this other lady, uh when I was in fifth or sixth grade. Um, and then they married when I was in seventh grade and at first my stepmom, you know, she was like fun taking me on shopping trips, getting my nails done and then turns out that was kind of a big cover for her being abusive. So she uh she has her own slew of traumas from her own parents and mental disorders and a very stressful job. And with her not taking care of that, she kind of like projected all of that onto my dad and me and my brother, she would like, prevent him from him coming to see us when we'd go to their house on the weekend. She would like, always have my dad be doing chores that like didn't really need to be done just to avoid him spending time with us. Even when I was like an older teenager, she wouldn't let me use anything in the kitchen. Like wasn't allowed to cook, wasn't allowed to like, really eat anything other than cereal. And just that like the entire period of time that she was in my life, I felt like I was walking on eggshells and like in my own feeble little teenage voice, I'm trying to voice this to my dad because I'm one trying to like, convince myself that, oh, this is normal. She's just a bit of an odd duck and she has been through a lot and try to like, convince myself that what she's doing is ok when it was not. So I feel like with that, I kind of internalized a lot of confusion, frustration, hurt pain because I mean, at the end of the day, it's like my dad's being taken away from me and with that around that time as well, my mom's dad had passed away and my mom had always kind of had issues with drinking. But I feel like that her dad's death really exacerbated that and she's been struggling with alcoholism. I mean, pretty much ever since the divorce. But especially since then. So with that as a young teenager in like middle school, I remember distinctly remembering and I went to like Catholic school my whole life and I really think it's because of that that now I can say like my faith is one of the biggest like, influences and most important things in my life. But I remember just having this like uns shaking belief that this is for a purpose and that all these things that I'm going through. Like there's a reason for it. Like it's either making me stronger or it's gonna help me with something in the future. I didn't know what, but I really think it was by the grace of God that he gave me that confidence despite, you know, being in such a hard time. So that kind of continued all throughout high school, all that stuff with my stepmom. And then my mom started dating someone else. I think my freshman or sophomore year of high school. Um, and he's nice gentleman. He's very fine, but still throughout high school I was very involved academically. Um, I was the captain of, like, the academic bowl and STEM team and on a travel field hockey team and like peer ministry. And I was the girl that like, did all the things that a lot. Yeah. But looking back on that, like since now that I'm almost finishing college, I realized that, oh, I kind of used all of those things to hide anything. I was feeling like, oh, if I'm busy, then I don't have to like, interact with my family or I don't have to like, dwell on these emotions because I'm just go, go, go all the time and then I don't have time to like, sit with my feelings. And I feel like honestly, my whole childhood up until I came to college, my emotions were just completely repressed and I feel like I let my identity be what I did. I think also. So my brother, when he was younger, he had a lot more needs and because he was two, when they got divorced, he needed a lot more attention emotionally and stuff. So I feel like just overall I was very independent, kind of left to my own devices and that just kind of went through my entire childhood and young adulthood. Yeah, that's it in a nutshell, I guess. Yeah, I know there's so much there and thanks for just your openness. And before we dive into, I have a few comments. But before we dive into further things too, I just want to say how impressed I am by you. Like I know a little bit about you and everyone will learn more about you in this interview. But it's beautiful to see given what you've described of what you've been through, of what your parents have struggled with and the ways in which you were, you know, just traumatized by the separation and the divorce and how, you know, you suffered through the abuse and just the other things that you dealt with in addition to all of that, then you are where you are today. That's impressive. And so I just want you to just to know that and I think that's so hopeful too for other people who may be young people who are in the midst of it right now. And they think like, I feel like I can never get through this or never move on in life. And uh it's beautiful to see that, that you're doing that. So, uh so well done. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. Of course, what you said about kind of busyness that relates to me a lot. Maybe that's just my personality type but I, you know, try to pack my schedule and just like, I love, yeah, just being productive and doing all that. And, like, you know, in high school too and even college for me it was like, sports and trying to accomplish different things and do well there and, and I, like you said, I think there's something, you know, good about it but of course, um, it can be a coping mechanism and it certainly was for me kind of just hiding from my pain and not wanting to face it. And I've heard people use the analogy when it comes to like repressed emotions. Like you mentioned that all that grief that we kind of are like running from. It's almost like a swimmer in the water with like imagine a woman swimming in water with really long hair and it's almost like that hair is like dragging behind her for this analogy. And, um, it won't that, that like long yucky, like dark hair won't catch up with her unless she stops. So she keeps swimming in a way she'll feel safe. But when she stops, it's like, oh, watch out. And so, um, I'm so glad that you've like, you know, dug into that too because people can go years and years and years much longer than, you know, much older than you. And I are even right now. Um, and never really address this stuff and it's just, that really breaks my heart. So it's, um, it's awesome to see that. You know, you've, you've begun that work and even made progress. But I remember my daughter Lucy right now, she like, is going through this phase where she loves watching The Sound of Music. So she's like, all about it. And to those of you who don't know that movie, it's like a movie from, I think it came out in the sixties. And um it's a musical and it's, uh you know, it's a little older now, but it was, it was a great movie, but she just loves the music and everything. And um, so we watched it like a million times recently and uh one of the lines in the movie is um activity suggests a life filled with purpose and I think that's so true. I think that's a lot of times how I felt is almost like this thing where if I'm really busy then I, I feel important. I feel significant. I feel like um people will respect me. And so that's another component to that busines as well. So I can relate a lot on that front. But um man, you went through, through so much and um I uh yeah, again, appreciate you being so vulnerable. So, so open to that before I hop on hop further. Anything else you want to say about what happened? Well, I guess just to comment on some things you mentioned one sound of music would recommend Love that. And two. Yeah, I think the analogy of the woman swimming in the water is very accurate. I've never really heard of that before, but at least for me, like, you know, living in, you know, my parents' houses up until I was 18 and then I went off to college and it wasn't until I kind of had that quote unquote stop in college where I had, I think the first opportunity in my life to really be introspective and think about, you know, my upbringing because this was like the first time I'm actually living on my own. And it really took that for me to realize that oh, I had been through really difficult things and that was kind of the catalyst for me to start like getting help and actually starting my healing process. Beautiful. No, that makes so much sense. And I think it's a good lesson to everyone listening, especially who is um behind you on the path, who hasn't gotten to that point yet if they're still, you know, swimming, if they're still running, kind of escaping those things. Um, at a point, it can get really difficult. I remember in college for me too, even high school. But college for me as well where like I just, I, I was like, experience a lot of messy emotions is like the best way I could put it into words at the time. It was like I just felt super broken. I couldn't even tell you like why or what was going on. I knew it was related to just a lot of, you know what I had gone through in my family, all that trauma. Um But I didn't fully understand it. So, um I think if you know that's coming, I think it is really helpful and then you can kind of not be surprised when that those struggles happen and then you can know, ok, I'm gonna need some help with this. And I'm not aware are strange for experiencing this. Given the difficult things I've been through, given the trauma, it's kind of to be expected. It's like if you break your ankle, you know, and then you heal it and go through therapy and then you start running again. It's like if you try to run a marathon, you might, you know, feel some pain. That's, that's normal. Yeah. No, I definitely agree with all of that. And I think at least for me, it came with like two sides of the same coin. Like one, a lot of freedom, a lot of freedom to finally, like, be myself and live and just have like a routine that I wanted where I wasn't constrained by, you know, all the happenings between going from one house to another factory and like all these other family things. Um, but two, I think with that freedom came a lot of reflection on, oh, why is it that I finally feel so happy being by myself. And I think a lot of hard emotions with that. And I think with that transition to college, like, one of, one of the first things that I did when arriving um was get involved with my campuses, Newman Center. And I feel like, honestly, that was where I really started to find like the friends and the people who one brought me closer to Christ. But two actually, like, sat with me with my feelings that like, I didn't even know I had and it's those friends that more than anything probably. And my now husband that we, we met at the Newman Center. But um it's those people who really have changed my life and helped me the most through this whole healing process so good. I'm excited to dig into that more as well. Was there anything else you wanted to add about kind of how your parents divorce, how their broken marriage um, affected you? I think like, one of the biggest things I guess was this fear that I had that I want to know how to be a good wife or a good mom one day. Quite honestly, I think that was like the biggest thing I was afraid of from probably all of my teenage years, just like I'm not gonna know how to manage a household or cook dinner properly or take care of kids or have a good happy holy relationship with my spouse just because, like I had never seen it. Like I had no idea what that looked like. Not only that, but you'd look to TV, you look to many other relationships, even, like my parents friends had struggling relationships or my friend's parents had struggling relationships and my parents' friends. But it's like, it's very hard to see good examples of what that looks like. Um, and I think from like a young teenager, I'm like, how do I do this in the future? And it wasn't until I really one met my now husband and two saw his parents. Um, and the good example that they had that I kind of understood that, but no, that fear definitely kept me back from. I feel like a lot of things like I was very high, like, hid myself a lot in a lot of ways. Um, and then also in high school, I feel like it led me to seek out a lot of relationships with other boys that weren't necessarily fruitful. I had two shorter relationships in like my sophomore year of high school and then another boy and I dated for nearly two years, my junior and senior year and at the time I was like, oh my gosh, we're gonna get married like he's a good Catholic. Um And yet, like, in retrospect a lot, like both of us used each other for, um, our like, emotional needs for attention. Um, it led to like, some unchased things between us and just a lot of use. Um, I think because we were both just yearning for that, like, love and affection and like, affirmation that neither of us were getting from our parents. And yeah, once I kind of like, realized that it was a very hard pill to swallow to realize that this is how my parents' divorce was, like, actually affecting me because I think up until that point I had convinced myself like, oh no, they're fine. I'm fine. I'm a big girl. Like it doesn't affect me. And then once I really, like, let myself consider that for a second, I was like, oh, no, this actually affects me a lot more than I think it does totally. And so many of us have had that experience where like we're going through life and like, I, I think I'm good, like, I, I don't think it really affected me much and then it kind of hit you in the face, especially the trend we've seen and you've probably seen this in the podcast is relationships. Like that's usually the thing that's like, man, I feel lost. I don't know what I'm doing or I'm just like, terrified of repeating what my parents had and I certainly don't want that. And, um, I know when it came to dating for me touching on what you just said, um, I was so scared like I was, I was just freaked out. I was like, I don't know how to go about this. I am just afraid the person is like going to abandon me because I, you know, didn't want to repeat what I saw in my parents' marriage and my own marriage. But also I didn't want to repeat that feeling, that experience of abandonment and rejection that I experienced when my parents separated. And so all of that just felt so scary and so risky that it was like, it's better maybe just play it safe and just not go down this route and kind of give up on love and relationships. And, um, what happens in that case, like you said, so well, and I experienced this too is if we give up on love and relationships, we just settle for the counterfeit usually. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. No, I definitely agree with that. Yeah. And, and, and that never satisfies. So then we have to go deeper into that and look for more and more and more. So, I'm, I'm right there with you. You mentioned your husband's parents. I want to stay there for a second. Uh What have you learned from them? I'm just curious because there's a lot of people who find themselves in that same spot that you and I were in where it's like, yeah, I'm scared. I don't know how to do this. Um, but then again, one of the trends we've seen is when you have those good marriages in your life. That can be a beautiful example and give you hope. Um, it goes really far. So I'm curious in particular for you from your parent, um, husband's parents or from other couples you knew? Like, what did you learn? Yeah. So, I guess a little bit of context about my husband before jumping into his parents, but we met my freshman year of college and then got married. When was it in the middle of our junior year? And we're just finishing up or yeah, about to graduate after about a year and a half of marriage and with all that. So, especially during the COVID pandemic. Uh, since all of our classes were online, uh, we would kind of every couple weeks move back and forth between staying with his parents and staying with mine and his parents. Uh, his whole family is like very devout Catholic. Uh, he has two older sisters and a younger brother and his parents are genuinely like the most loving, caring, selfless people that I know. Um, they have been married, I wanna say 38 years this year. And you can just tell them like the way they treat each other, the way they treat their kids and their grandkids, they truly, truly respect each other and want what's best for the other person after I had gotten to know them for or a little bit. I had learned that there was a point where they actually almost got a divorce themselves and there were some really rough financial things going on and they, they actually did plan to divorce once all their kids were 18 and out of the house, which I mean, I thought was impressive that they would still stay together despite practically hating each other just for the sake of their Children. Like I'm, I'm getting choked up thinking about that, but just the sacrifices that they were willing to make for the sake of their kids blows my mind. And yet with that, like they say, constantly, you know, their relationship is so much stronger now that they have been through that than, you know, than it ever was before going through such a challenge. And I think it's, it's just really, really admirable. Wow, that is super impressive. And I'd be so curious to learn from them too. Maybe we'll have to get them on the podcast. But yeah, I, and the more I learn about marriage and hear from couples who are like way smarter than, you know, me and the more I realize like those sorts of struggles and kind of getting to that point where you want to quit are pretty normal in a marriage. Some people are scandalized by that because they think marriage is going to be like this fairy tale. But, um I think it, again, it's helpful if you can kind of expect like, yeah, at some point, things are going to get harder than they are. Now and I might want to quit. I might want to walk away and I think that's really where, that's really where it takes a lot of like virtue, a lot of strength and God's grace to, to keep going and what they experience too. Um, I don't have the research in front of me, but there's a lot of research that says if you, if you push through those hard times, if you make those sacrifices, of course, with the exception that there's not like abuse or things like, you know, you might get killed by your thoughts or whatever like that, then you need to get to safety, of course. But if you can push through those difficult times, those annoyances, those frustrations, those, you know, even like you said, hitting each other, perhaps, um the majority of the time your marriage will actually improve like they saw and, and that's like really hopeful and beautiful. So a lot of people don't hear that. And again, I don't have the research performing sorry guys. But I think it's really important to hear because those struggles, they're inevitable. Yeah, definitely. And even just anecdotally, like my mother-in-law has said, she like so many of her sisters and in-laws and her friends and their marriages have had very severe struggles. Um And yet with all of them, the ones that have stuck together through that they're so much happier, so much stronger, so much more devoted to each other after going through that when Nick and I were doing our marriage prep and like pre K stuff. Our sponsor couple detailed some of the struggle that they went through and I, we both look at them as like just this wonderful epitome of a good Catholic couple and Catholic family and to know that they chose to get through those struggles together and to choose each other over and over again and to choose their kids over their own, like, feelings is very admirable to see. And I think for a while it was hurtful, like, having known that, that in marriage and in relationships, it is a choice that we can make to stick it out through those hard times. Um, I feel like coming to that realization led to some resentment with my own parents for, for a bit, just like, why, why couldn't they choose to seek help? Why couldn't they, um, choose to consider me and my brother a little bit more? Um, and how their decisions might affect us. I've since, like, worked past that. But I think recognizing the power of choice and the ability to persevere is very, very impressive. Yeah. No, I agree. And we, we champion that in other areas of life a ton. Right. You know, it's like in school or career or sports or, you know, staying fit, whatever we don't tell people, oh, just quit and go try something else. It's like, no, we, we tell them, like, push through like, persevere, be strong, like all that stuff and we need more of that within our, within marriage, just for sure. So, I, I definitely agree with what you're saying. Yeah. Was there anything else? I guess you've learned, you learned from them in particular that was kind of transformative for you, like, aside from just their whole story overall. Yeah, I guess speaking of my father-in-law in particular, so the issue that they had led him to have to leave his job and kind of leave his whole entire field that he had worked in for years. And as a result, he picked up his sister's dog walking business. Mind you, he hates dogs. Um, but it, it was the job that he could get at the time. And since then, I mean, he continues every single day of the year, like holidays, weekends, kids', birthdays, everything he goes out there and he walks these dogs and as much as he hates it, he does it every single day without any complaining whatsoever because he knows he's providing for his family and those that he loves. I mean, you'll get the old, old like, oh, out to go, like pick up some more dog poop again and like humorous things, but never once wants a genuine complaint. And I feel like that that is just such a gift that he provides to his family. And I, I really admire him for that. And I know my husband does and all of his kids do as well. So it's very impressive. No, that's so impressive. And I, I think that what you're getting at, like this ability to sacrifice, which we can boil it down to like self mastery. Right. That's the core ingredient to a beautiful marriage. That's it. Like, like, obviously there's other things too. But I think at its core and, or the foundation we can say is like, if you have that basic virtue, if you have that self mastery, that ability to like, deny yourself to do what's best for the people that you love. You're going to get way further than doing what the culture really suggests, which is like, we'll go with your feelings or do whatever you want. Um That's just going to be a recipe for disaster. Yeah, definitely. And like throwing it back to my high school theology class to love is to will the good of the other. And that's not to just want to do what's best for the other people, but it's to make those sacrifices when it's hard and to actually get out there and do the things that are better for the other person, even if it's not what you want. And yeah, just like you said, I feel like that is when it really comes down to it, that is what makes or breaks a relationship so good. Staying on the theme of relationships you already mentioned, you know, your relationship and in high school and some other things. Was there anything else you would add in terms of how your parents divorce all the dysfunction at home, impacted your ability to relate with other people, especially in your dating relationships and now your marriage. Yeah. Well, I'd say kind of detailed all the dating relationship stuff, but socially, just as an elementary, middle, high school student, I felt it difficult to just relate to my peers in general. I felt that I grew up a lot more quickly than the other kids around me. And because of that, I couldn't quite relate to them and like that they could relate to each other. I also just went to a very small school and middle school girls can get very clicky. So I feel like already that like lack of connection combined with all that just made socialization a bit difficult up until high school when things got a bit better. But yeah, it took a lot of like kind of introspection to kind of like reflect and realize that. And then once I did things started to make a lot more sense when it comes to my current relationship. Now with my husband, honestly, I gotta say that was one of the biggest things that helped me, one realize how affected I was by my parents' divorce and two helped me start my like healing process. We started dating honestly, just a couple weeks into my freshman year of college. Um So as I was going through this big life change, um and all these other, just like subconscious emotional changes, um I also started to have panic attacks out of nowhere right around this time. And it was really nick, who one helped me through that. Like during my first panic attack, my first instinct was to call him and we weren't even dating yet, but my first instinct was to call him and he ran half a mile across campus to come get me. So if that's not dedication, I don't know what it is. But, but he would, even if he didn't quite understand why I was feeling the things I was feeling because his home life growing up was drastically different than mine without fail. He took the time to sit with me and my emotions help me process them because I never processed them before. He helped me understand what it was. I was truly looking for in a relationship. I had kind of come to that realization just before meeting him. But he was kind of like the actualization of that. But he has just provided such a safe haven and such a good rock for me as I've been going through this journey the past like four years now and I'm still going through it. But just without fail, he never fails to show up and help me with whatever it is I'm going through and he's patient and he's kind and he's loving in just so many different ways. And one, I don't think I'd be the person I am without my parents' divorce. But two, I don't think I'd be the person I am without him as well. Beautiful. Wow. Sounds like an incredible man. And thanks for sharing all that. Yeah, I think it's again so hopeful too, especially to people who maybe checked out and given up on love and relationships all together because it is rough in the dating world. Like I'm glad I'm not dating today. I'm sorry to all of you out there who are like, it's rough out there. But knowing that there's good men like your, your husband is super hopeful. And I love the point like underneath the point that you're making, it's just like this idea that like love can be healing, incredibly healing. And, and I found that too, whether it was in my friendships or, you know, my dating relationship, even like I was able to date really great girls, like incredibly like virtuous, beautiful women and uh and my wife included. And uh it can be incredibly healing. And I think when we look at our Brokenness, our wounds, the trauma we've endured. I learned this from Dr Bob Sheets, like at the root of almost every wound is a deprivation of love or a distortion of love. And so naturally, it follows that he, you know, to heal those wounds, we need authentic love. And so that's what you're experiencing, which is really, really beautiful. And, you know, you can experience that again in your friendships and your relationship with God, perhaps even in your relationship with your parents if, if those relationships are healed in time. Um And, but yeah, in, in a marriage for sure. So it's really, really beautiful to, to see that, that, that love can be healing, that love can be. Um it can, it can transform you and not, not in the sense that you know, your husband's your savior, but in the sense that he can, you know, see the Brokenness, see the wound, see the messiness, see the imperfections that you have and love you in spite of them. And perhaps even because of them, those moments in my life are like where people have been like seeing how broken I am and they still love me that, that in itself was just like healing. Yeah. No, I totally agree with all that Joey. And I think especially as like a young woman in today's society, it can be just in general, hard to think that there are good quality men out there who actually want to take care of you and love you for who you are. Um and not just for what you are and taking the time to really seek out just high quality people for friends in general, but especially in a dating partner or a spouse, it's definitely worth the wait can agree more when it comes to healing and, you know, kind of navigating the pain and the problems that you dealt with in healthy ways. You mentioned some of the unhealthy ways. Um What were a few things that again really helped you heal and really helped you cope or navigate those things in addition to what you already mentioned? Yeah, ironically, the COVID pandemic I think was really helpful with um all the time, you know, spending time by myself. Um and especially with Nick and his family. I think that was a very good opportunity that came out of such a dark time that for everyone. But I think also seeking out therapy and good therapy has been extremely helpful. So shortly after we got married, so I, I had been struggling with my mental health um with anxiety and depression for, I mean, I wanna say years, but I didn't like throughout my childhood, but I don't think I realized that it affected me that much until right around when COVID hit. So about a year ago was when I started seeing a therapist mostly for just like my mental health because that's what I thought it was. I was like, oh, I'm just anxious from, you know, not seeing a lot of people because of COVID and I'm depressed because I can't get out and I'm a huge extrovert and I was like, it got to the point that I'm doing like, I'm exercising, sleeping, right, doing all the things that should help alleviate that. And the fact that I was still feeling these awful things told me that, hey, I should probably seek some help. So I did originally just for mental health in general. And then with that therapy, we kind of realized that no, a lot of this actually ties back to my parents' divorce and what I went through and how that made me feel how much of a perfectionist made me become, how much it made me repress my emotions, how much it made me like, put my self worth and like the things I did because that's when I would get attention from my parents if I like, got a trophy or whatever. And all of like the behaviors that my parents had when I was living with them really manifested themselves in how I viewed myself. And thanks to a good therapist that I've seen. And then also another incredible Catholic therapist that my mom and now my mom and I are currently seeing now. I feel like both of that, both of them have helped me just heal and or at least have the ability to heal with myself. I think at least for me, I'm like, being so introspective, just simply taking the time to think about things has been very helpful for me. But you can only really do that effectively if you know what to look for. And it was these wonderful therapists that I had that I think actually helped me with that and I, I feel like I got lucky with just like getting two great therapists right off the bat. But I remember in high school I also wanted to seek out a therapist and I tried three different ones and we just didn't click at all. Um, so if anyone is considering therapy, I definitely consider you to keep looking until you do find someone that you connect with. Um, and especially if you're a practicing Catholic, seeking out Catholic therapists. I think there's a website called like my catholic therapist dot com. And I, I definitely recommend that and I feel like that other than Nick is the biggest reason that I've moved through all of my emotions and everything as well as I have beautiful and I think your story of kind of experiencing symptoms and just like knowing the symptoms where it's like, well, I'm sad a lot. I'm depressed. I'm anxious a lot. I'm having these panic attacks, especially when you get to that point. Um, I think that's usually where people realize like, I need some help. And thankfully you sought it out a lot of times people don't and they just kind of like, find other ways to deal with it. A lot of times they're unhealthy ways, whether it's drinking or, you know, partying or sleeping around or binging on so many different things. So, no, that, that's beautiful that you sort it out. And then I'm glad that you had, you know, a therapist who was competent enough to see like these are symptoms of some root cause they're not, you know, the root cause in and of itself. Because what I've seen a lot and this is like one critique I have of the psych world and I know a lot of people have this critique too is that so often we just manage symptoms, we don't get to the root. And so that's where especially in the world of psychiatry, I've heard psychiatrists come out and say like our profession is failing people in a lot of ways because we just manage symptoms. And then we, they, especially in psychiatry, they do it with pills, you know, with medicine and I'm not, I'm not against medicine. I think there's a place for it, but it needs to be more in depth and it needs to be used more carefully than just like, oh, you're sad. Here's a pill that will make you not feel sad. It's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, why are they so sad? Like what's at the root of that? Is there some sort of trauma, is there, you know, something else going on in their life? And so um so that's beautiful that you had someone who was able to point to that and it sounds like that's been effective like it's been helping you as well. Is that still as much of a struggle now? Or have you been able to, um, kind of find some relief from the, even those symptoms as well. Yeah, I'd say I started seeking therapy a little over a year ago and then soon after that, um, started taking an anti anxiety medication because at least physiologically for me, I'm taking care of my body doing all the like physical things that I need to and yet I'm still like unable to breathe, unable to sleep properly. So, for me, having a medicine was extremely, extremely helpful for me. But I think one of the great things was that both my therapist and my um psychiatrist suggested that I start taking medicine under the assumption that this is temporary just to get you back to a baseline, um where, you know, you're not shaking like a dog every 10 seconds. Um So it's like a gateway to get me to the point where I am able to take care of myself. And that's what it has been like. I, I'm no longer taking the medication and I'm no longer seeing that original therapist that helped me get on that medication. But what they did both with therapy and with medication was give me the tools and get me stable enough so that I could help myself in other ways and let other people in my life help me in other ways. Um But no, I definitely, I definitely agree. And I think in today's society one, it's almost like cool to need antidepressants or something I student teach middle schoolers right now. And they're constantly talking about how, oh, yes. I'm like going to therapy and I'm, I'm very glad that they're like getting help that they need. But at the same time I feel like today's culture glamorizes that when in reality, like you said, medication should not be the end all, be all. Like you can't treat the symptoms, you need to treat the root cause. And I'm very thankful that I've had people in my life to help me with that. Totally. Yeah. No, thanks for sharing that. And I'm so glad that, you know, your therapist and everyone treating you like they took a comprehensive approach. And that's what I was trying to get at when I'm talking about medicine. I don't want anyone to think that I'm like against, you know, like in your case, taking the medicine you needed to take like that, it can be such a good thing and so helpful. I know people right now who, you know, without the medication that they are on it would, they would really, really struggle. And so there's a point to it and I love the temporary piece. I think that's always ideal if you, if that could be the case where it's like we're using this as a tool to get me to a better place where I don't need it anymore. I'm really glad medication exists. Like I've gotten a few surgeries in my life. Nothing major, but I'm really glad they're, you know, that I had medicine to, like, manage the pain. It would have been really miserable if I didn't have that medicine. And, you know, again, when people are in like really rough spots, it can be something that can be very effective. No, no argument there. Um, but yeah, I agree with you too. It's sad to see it as like kind of this blanket approach. And we'll, we'll link to this um interview Dr Peter Attia is a popular doctor who has a podcast and he talks a little bit about this, but he brought on this um uh from what I can tell, like a renowned psychiatrist who practices in New York City. And uh it was really from him that I learned more about his critiques of his own field of psychiatry and how he was saying, you know, that again, he wasn't like saying that the medication is bad in and of itself. But the way that it's often being used is like kind of lazy. It's like, oh, we're just gonna use it as a blanket to cover this problem. We're not actually getting to the root cause. But if it's used as a component as a plan as a part of a, you know, a more comprehensive approach to, to treat someone and help them to, to feel whole again, then uh Yeah, that's great. But the other way can often, what I've seen is actually it leads someone deeper down a hole because it's not, you know, solving what's underneath the surface. So, I'm so glad that, um, you have those competent people in your life who are helping you. And it makes, makes total sense to me. Yeah, totally though. You know, you, I'm sure your work in progress. Um, how have you've seen yourself grow and change and transform over the years from, you know, where you were to where you are today? I laugh because I feel like my 14, 15 year old self would not have or could not have imagined my life being what it is right now. And yet I feel like it's, it's taken the most beautiful and wonderful twists and turns away from what younger me thought. So while in high school, um you know, as I said, I was like the go getter, the like captain of everything, doing all the things. And when I came into college, uh I was originally going to major in biochemistry and I wanted to like go to grad school, get my phd do cancer research, like get a Nobel Prize one day like that. I mean, bit ambitious, but that's what I thought I wanted to do. And it wasn't until I really started this like healing process and all that where I really reflected on. Oh, what does God actually want me to do with my life? Because I thought for the longest time, oh, he's given me you know, this intellect I should use it. But once I kind of like, let him in and try to listen more to what he wanted me to do. He had led me to study secondary education in sciences. So in a few weeks I'll be graduating to be a middle and high school science teacher, which is very exciting. Congratulations. Thank you. So I feel like with that, that was a huge gift from God to one. Still let me like follow my passion for science and my love of that. But also to be in a spot where I can be a mentor to these younger kids, uh especially when they were the age and perhaps going through the things that I went through and to use more of my like empathetic side that I didn't know I had in a career is wonderful. I mean, in addition to that getting married at 21 in college is not necessarily common these days, but oh my gosh, my marriage has been the best thing that has happened in my life. And again, definitely would not have expected that a few years ago. But now being married to Nick almost a year and a half now has been wonderful and we have our first little one on the way. Uh We're expecting this fall so very, very excited for that. And I think, I think just the biggest thing in general is how my desires have shifted. Um since since this whole healing process, um like before, it used to be so outward focused again, doing all the things, getting all the recognition and now it's been so much more focused on quote unquote what really matters, um which to me is family and teaching, you know, our future Children to seek out Christ as a Catholic. After graduation, I'll be working as a youth minister and kind of like outreach coordinator at my parish, which again, not something I would have ever thought I was gonna do. And yet I feel so fulfilled doing that and so content in a way that I didn't even think was possible. Like I am so excited to work for my church to be a mom to raise a family when just like five or six years ago, I almost didn't see that as a possibility for myself. Given my circumstances growing up, I think in general also when it comes to my parents, I'm a lot closer with my dad now. So he and my stepmom, uh they've been separated for, I think two years at this point, but they're getting a divorce now. And as tragic as that is, um it's also relieving that my dad is getting away from a toxic relationship and with that freedom, he's been able to connect a lot more with me and my brother. Um So it's good to kind of have him back. Um And with my mom, we've had a lot more family difficulties with her, me and my brother as of late. But with those difficulties, we've started going to therapy. At least my mom and I have and again, as difficult and painful as that process has been, it has been pretty healing and I've seen her grow a lot deeper in her faith as well. So it's been, it's been very good to see that. And I think there's still a long way to go in terms of like my healing, the way I think about things and my interactions with my parents. But I feel like I can confidently say, you know, after these like four years of healing and like, I don't wanna say soul searching, but like um seeking out help and letting others into my life to help me with that, we're on like a permanent upward trend and things are really good and it's good to say that. Yeah, beautiful. Thanks for sharing all that. I appreciate again, your vulnerability and congrats on the baby. That's so exciting. Um Just being a dad is my, pretty much my favorite thing in the world, if not my favorite thing in the world. So I'm so excited for, for both of you. And it's amazing to see the growth that you've had in your life. And yeah, thinking back to who you were and where you could have ended up to. That's always a humbling thing for me to think of in life. It's like, man, I could have ended up in a really bad spot. Um, I'm not saying my life is perfect or that there's no struggles, but it's like, man, life could have been really sad and scary. Um, so I'm really grateful that that you, you know, have found that path and have followed it and are still on it. So, really, really beautiful before we close out. I'm just curious if your parents were listening right now. Yeah. Is there anything that you would want to say to them? Anything that you would want them to know? That is a tough question. I guess if they were listening, I'd want them to know that I'm not mad at them. I'm not upset with them. Um, like I don't hold any resentment because I know that is a very common feeling amongst, you know, adult Children whose parents were divorced and not that that is a wrong thing to feel or a bad thing to feel. But I'd love for my parents to know that I still love them. And I know that, uh despite all that I went through, despite their decisions, I still know that they did everything with the intention of loving me and loving my brother. And I think also that as kind of hard this is to say, I'm very thankful for what I've been through. As painful as it was. I would do it all over again if it meant me still being the person that I am today. I've had the opportunity to kind of like, share my experiences um with some of my friends as there is, their parents were getting divorced and they were going through messy relationships themselves and things like that. And I truly think that's just the biggest, like testimony of how God uses everything and he doesn't give us things that he doesn't have a purpose for. So for me, I found a lot of comfort in that and I'd love for my parents to know that. Wow, good stuff. Yeah. Difficult question but beautiful answer. Um If people want to contact you, what's the best way for them to do that? Yeah, I'd say by email would be great. Um My email is my name Alana A L A N A 1201 at gmail dot com. And yeah, feel free to reach out. I'd love to talk. Awesome. It's been so good having you. Um 22 final questions. One is um I know you found uh restored helpful. I'm just curious like, yeah, how is restored? Help to you? Um I'll start there and then one final question. Yeah. Um I think the biggest thing, well, one I actually found restored when looking at resources for my friend whose parents were getting a divorce and reading all of these stories and hearing from so many people who went through similar situations that I did simply knowing that I'm not alone I think is just the biggest thing, knowing that I'm not the only one with the feelings that I have um with the concerns that I have with the struggles that I have gone through. Um knowing that there are other people who can relate to me, I think is the biggest thing. And I think that was like the biggest thing that I lacked growing up. Like none of my friends could understand what I went through. No other adults. I felt truly quote unquote, got me and restored, I think because just been such a big blessing in creating that community and creating that connection uh between people when I feel like this is such an un unrecognized issue and unrecognized trauma that so many people um experience and I feel like restored has just been an incredible, incredible resource to just connect people and definitely make me feel not alone, such an honor to serve you. Thank you for um you know, making use of the resources that we have and I'm so glad they've been been helpful. Um Yeah, you're the reason we do it. We want to help you and help your family and help everyone like me who's been through this trauma that you, you, you said, well, it's like it's not treated as a trauma, it's not talked about as a trauma, but it certainly is a trauma and there's millions actually sorry, correction, tens of millions of people who've been through this and don't get the help that they need and deserve and that's wrong. And so we're, we're changing that. So thank you for um for being a part of that coming on the show and in closing, I just wanna give you the final word. What words of encouragement. What advice would you give to someone who, who feels really stuck, who feels broken in life right now because of that trauma of going through their parents, divorce or dysfunction at home. Yeah. Well, real quick, I'd love to just thank you Joey and all the work you and your team do to provide restored ministries. It really is incredible. And I guess any words of advice I've had is that you are not defined by the experiences you had because of your parents. Like we, we go through things, we grow through things and yes, we can be very impacted and shaped by the very difficult things that, you know, life throws at us. And yet even if you feel broken, like I certainly did, I felt like I'd be a failure in any future relationships. I felt like just so many things were scary and I felt like I couldn't do things because of my experiences with divorced parents and yet that doesn't go to waste. That doesn't, that doesn't hold you back. Um And at least for me as a Catholic, God doesn't give us situations that he doesn't equip us to handle. And I feel like relying on God through that and I feel like he gave me a particular grace to trust him on that has been very comforting and healing. But I'd say, regardless of, you know, your belief system or not, every challenge is an opportunity to grow and to use that knowledge for the better. And even if like, you don't understand it, now, there's certainly a way that you can transform that pain and that suffering and those hurt feelings into a way to help yourself and to help others in the future. There's so many good lessons in Alana's story, but there's one that actually hit me that we didn't discuss much and I'll share that in a second. But first, if you come from a divorce or broken family, how is your parents divorce or your broken family affecting you today? It might be trickier to answer that question than it seems. And if your answer is, I don't really know or you don't understand the depth of it, you're actually not alone. That's a very common. But in the words of one therapist, when it comes to experiencing healing, naming how you've been harmed is about 70% of the battle. Our new assessment will help you name and diagnose your Brokenness. So you can heal it at its roots, not just treat the symptoms and build the life and relationships that you desire. So if you want to become the best version of yourself, find the love, happiness and freedom, you long for and avoid repeating the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. Then you need to heal. And the first step to healing is naming diagnosing your wounds to help you do that. You can take our free confidential and research based assessment. Just go to my broken family dot com again, my broken family dot com, answer the questions there and then you can view your results again. Go to my broken family dot com or just click on the link in the show notes again, among the many good lessons in Alana's story. This one hit me putting the work into healing and becoming healthy and whole actually uncovered her calling in life to education. Another way to say it is the barrier of her untreated Brokenness, hid her calling in life. And once she began to overcome that barrier of untreated Brokenness, untreated trauma, it was unveiled. It's a powerful lesson. So if you feel stuck and unsure about what you should do with your life, perhaps your Brokenness is blinding you and you need to begin healing so that you can discover it. If you'd like to share your story with us like Elana did, we'd love to hear it. There's three easy steps to do that. But first, some of the benefits of sharing your story reflecting on your story is healing on a neurobiological level. Writing your story is also healing studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed, less anxious, healthier and happier. And sharing your story with someone is healing on a neurobiological level as well. And also sharing your story gives guidance and hope to people who are struggling in similar ways that you are. How do you do that? Well, just go to restored ministry dot com slash story, again, restored ministry dot com slash story. The form in that page guides you in telling a short version of your story. And then we'll turn that into an anonymous blog article. So share your story now by going to restored ministry dot com slash story or just click on the link in the show notes. All right. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them and always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

#063: The Antidote to Trauma | Margaret Vasquez

When your parents’ marriage and family break apart, it’s traumatic for you as their son or daughter. 

That trauma is not only painful, but also has devastating effects on you that last for a long time. As a result, you need to heal. But how? 

Our guest today, a trauma therapist, shares the antidote or opposite of trauma. We discuss:

• The 4 principles you need to live out to prevent and heal from trauma

• One thing you can today, right away, to heal and grow

• Why feeling worthless is a major problem that you need to address in order to feel whole again

If you want peace, freedom, and great relationships, this episode is for you. 

Buy Margaret’s book: FEARLESS: Abundant Life through Infinite Love (affiliate link)

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Margaret Vasquez

  • margaret@sacredhearthealingministries.com

  • Sacred Heart Healing Ministries

  • Episode 37: Trauma: What It Is and How It Damages You | Margaret Vasquez

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When your parents' marriage and family falls apart, it's traumatic for you as their son or daughter. That trauma though is not only painful, but also has devastating effects on you that lasts for a long time. And as a result, you need to heal. But how my guest today, a trauma therapist shares the antidote to trauma, the opposite of trauma, as she says, We discussed the four principles you need to live out to prevent and heal from trauma.

She also shares one thing that you can do today right now to heal and grow. We talk about why feeling worthless is a major sign and problem that you need to address in order to feel whole again. Now, if you want peace, if you want freedom, if you want great relationships, this episode is for you. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce. Separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 63. You've probably heard that my new book is available on Amazon. It's titled it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce.

And the sad truth is that for a lot of teens and young adults, the most traumatic thing that they've endured is their parents' separation or divorce, but nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and all the problems that stem from their. Breakdown. And without that guidance, they continue to feel alone and struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles and so much more.

And I experienced these issues, these problems firsthand when my parents broke apart and it really shouldn't be this way. It's not your fault. My new book is an answer to that problem. It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by teens and young adults who come from broken families, such as after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted and adequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me.

What's your advice for navigating in the holidays? And other life events. How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage and so much more? And the content itself is based on research, expert advice and real life stories. And after reading, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents' separation or divorce, how to.

Build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems to learn some healing tactics, to help them feel whole again, how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions about their future. Now, if you wanna buy the book or if you want to get the first chapters free, just go to restored ministry.com/books.

Again, that's restored ministry.com. Slash books, or just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Margaret Vasquez. After over 15 years of treating trauma clients of all ages presenting to a wide variety of groups in person and through guests appearances on E WTN radio shows and podcasts.

Margaret began serving as a consultant for Franciscan university of Steubenville Institute. For diaconal renewal and presenting workshops and retreats to religious priests, deacons, and lay people. She now makes those same retreats and workshops available to you in her new book, fearless and through online retreats and workshops.

And as you might remember, I interviewed Margaret in episode 37 trauma, what it is and how it damages you. And we heard a lot of good feedback about that episode. This episode is equally as good, and I'm thrilled to. With Margaret again. And before we dive into the conversation, I wanna say that we do talk about God somewhat in this episode.

And if you don't believe in God, I'm so glad that you're here. This show is for everyone, not just religious people. And my challenge for you is this, listen with an open mind, even if you take the God parts out, I'm super confident that you're still gonna benefit from this conversation. And so here it.

Margaret. It's so good to have you back on the show. Thanks for being here. Thanks Joey. It's great to be. I was especially excited to talk with you again, because you're an expert on trauma and what the people that we're serving are dealing with so often is trauma from their broken families. And so I'm excited to speak with you, and I'm excited to tell everyone about this book that you've written because as I understand it, and you correct me if I'm wrong here, the framework that you offer really is an antidote to trauma.

So two questions for you. 1:00 AM I overstating that? And two, is there anything else you would say about the problem that this book solve? I see it as definitely not even just the antidote of trauma, but trauma prevention as well. Like when people are looking to like build their own families. Right. And also like one of the, when I'm, when I'm working with people in, in treatment in my office and I lay out the concept, be behind the book, we use it throughout the week for them to understand the why behind, like, why the things they've gone through.

Are particularly painful, hurtful difficult, because a lot of times people tend to minimize those things and think, well, if I just wasn't a whim or if I just had a thicker skin, or if I just wasn't so sensitive or, or this or that, and or people have been through worse, I hear that a lot. And I think when people can understand why things were painful and hurtful and that it was actually because the situation was not what we're made for, then they're able.

One not minimize it. And then so really be able to experience compassion and be compassionate towards themselves about it. And then also it puts 'em on a better trajectory going forward to be able to understand why those ways are not the ways to relate to others in the future. Right. Cuz they really understand the, the whole picture.

So. beautiful. I love it. It makes me think of, I've heard it said that who's more of the hero, a firefighter who puts out a fire, or maybe a firefighter who puts in a fire prevention system. And in a lot of ways, it's like, well, prevention is, is beautiful. And so either way, if someone's been through trauma, they can benefit from the book.

If they maybe haven't and they. Avoid that, or prevent that from happening, then they can benefit from the book. So really, really beautiful. Mm-hmm what would you say is the outcome or the transformation that you want for each person who, who reads the books and start more than reading it? Who puts it into action?

Who starts living this out? What's that outcome that you want for them simply stated it would be able to, to live, um, in the fullness of, uh, healthy. Connection communion with others and healthy integration with themself, and then hopefully healthy union with God, if for those who are on that track, because it's really like the essence of connection, whether it's to God, ourselves or others, it, it all comes down to the same principles.

So. Beautiful. And let's talk about that a little bit, like abundant life and other words that I would use for that too. And I know you would agree would be thriving or flourishing. Sure. Yeah. What do we mean when we say that? Cause I think for a lot of people, especially who have a really broken background, they may have never tasted that they may have no real concept of flourishing or thriving or some sort of abundant life.

Like, I dunno what that means. What would you say to someone who doesn't really can't relate to. Words. Yeah. Well, I just think, you know, a little bit about my history, right. And I, I grew up in a crazy amount of dysfunction and trauma. And so I, I came by the field honestly. Right. And so, yeah, I never understood that life could really be about something more than trying to like quiet the, the discord and confusion and drama, you know?

So I really like the definition of. Peace. That's more of like Shalom, right? Like, so the definition for that is like wholeness there's sense of completeness and fullness and that kind of thing, as opposed to the absence of discord. So to me, abundant life is such a sense of fullness and, and completeness that then it overflows to the others in your lives as well.

Mm. So good. And I, I would say too, that the byproduct of that is joy, which I think we all want, we want happiness. Oh yeah. Would you agree with. Oh, yeah, absolutely joy. Freedom. Yeah. Yeah. I think both of those words come to mind. beautiful. And I love what you said too. And I think so, so many of us have been there and even the people listening right now might be there right now.

It's just in the survival mode where perhaps even in a victim mode where they've, you know, gone through a lot and they just feel powerless and hopeless. And so I think this is very timely, so many people need, and I'm just really excited to, uh, to dive into this book. So in the book, you'd say that true, authentic.

Healthy connection is the antithesis of trauma. It's the antidote, like we said, why is that? Let's break into that a little bit more. Why is that the antidote? Yeah. Well, I see it like, as, I guess let's say I, I use the word antithesis because I see it as like the opposite of trauma, right? If like trauma is what we are not made for.

And so therefore it does damage to us on all different levels, physically, emotionally, spiritually, cognitively, relationally, you know, and the list goes on. Then, if that's true of trauma, then connection is that for which we're made. And it's really that by which we grow in personal integration, like meaning like our personal sense of self, our really our ability to, to really feel comfortable in our own skin, which is a really big deal.

And to be able to relate to others with a sense of starting with the needle on fall instead of the needle on empty mm-hmm . So we're really able. To relate from a sense of freedom where it's really, I can engage with you from a place of being filled up first. And so then it overflows to you rather than going.

Each interaction, really hoping that this desperate need in me somehow gets filled up by this person. And that's just such a, a setup for crazy making, you know? So I see connection is really, uh, what we're made for, because it's what causes that, that personal integration and that true piece and joy and freedom between people and relationships and that sense of, of growing union with God.

So good. And would you say, let's say someone's listening right now and like, well, I've kind of messed up in my relationships. I've built maybe this unhealthy reliance on another person. Like I feel half empty, you know, all the time, will this book kind of help them course? Correct too. Like, I, I know we're talking about prevention and maybe people in their mind, they might think if I don't use it beforehand.

And then I get in this situation where I'm really broken things. Aren't good. Can this help me course? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So can I share, I'll share a story. So I was doing some follow up work for some people who had gone through trauma therapy and this one particular situation. It was a, a 16 year old boy and his mother.

And there was just a lot of conflict in their relationship because a lots of the stuff that he had been through. So just wrote out the framework really simply it's back. And I had a really simple model of it, and I really just on a page, drew a circle and divided into four quadrants and just wrote in those quadrant.

Boundaries valued, known and openness. I mean, it was just super rudimentary way of describing it to them, but I showed it to both of them and, and said, this is what we all need in relating. And when those things are there, like things are great. And when those things aren't there, everything goes sideways really fast, you know?

And so it was so cool. You know, I didn't like anticipate this cuz it was one of the first settings like that, where I was describing this to people after I'd started seeing. Kind of like a way of understanding human and spiritual integration mm-hmm . But by describing it to this mom and this son, and write, just writing it on this piece of paper and sitting it on the table in front of them.

Now, all of a sudden they were sitting like shoulder to shoulder and looking at this piece of paper and it was like, okay, this is what. We both need. And, and so this is what, where we feel like how you related to, you know, your father and I, what the mom would say, wasn't there, you know, it felt like you've crossed our boundaries or, you know, whatever by violating curfew or what, and for him, it was like, okay, I can understand that.

But like, , I didn't feel like you guys really understood how important going to that event was to me, you know? So I really didn't feel known cuz didn't feel like you, you know, listened to and, and so it was so cool, you know, I'm just like I'm watching this. Interaction take place and thinking how beautiful it was that it went from.

Well, you're a bad kid. Well, you're a mean mom into, before they had that framework of understanding, basically like rules of engagement. Right. And once they had that, then suddenly there was a common. A common goal and a common understanding of we want connection with each other. And I was just like, that was so cool.

And then the, the boy, the teen, he was going to his high school. And, uh, so over the next couple of weeks he would come in and I would be able to ask him about his week in terms of like his relationships with his parents, with his girlfriend or with his friends at school mm-hmm in terms of those connection factors.

And by the first week he came in after, you know, the. Just understanding, you know, explanation. He came in, he was able to explain what was working and what wasn't basically in his life, in terms of those four things. By the second week, he was able to do it without any prompting from me. It was like he had already like, Put his life up against the captain crunch, decoder ring.

Right. And like, knew how to talk about it. By the third week he came in saying that he was able to adjust on the fly in relationships with his girlfriend and his friends and his parents, like in his, just in his mind, like having those simple factors and he was relating to somebody and he felt like, okay, like, there's a block here.

There's a wall here. How this person's responding to me. Something doesn't feel smooth in his head. He just went by those. things and was able to like, yeah. Self correct, like in, in real time. And I was like, wow, that. That was like, that felt like a big victory. Amazing. Yeah. Right. 16 year old that's male, you know, that was like, it felt like a big deal.

Yeah. If it would feel a big deal to be able to teach that to a clinician and have him kind of master it in three weeks, but a 16 year old, it was great. Yeah. No, that's, that's amazing. And you know, Us men, especially when we're teenagers aren't necessarily known for thriving. Well, you know, in the principles of you teach , what was that?

I wasn't gonna say it, but if you want to, yeah. I could say it . Yeah. Some are more advanced than others, but, uh, yeah. Yeah. I was like relating things that I'm learning for the first time, which I'm learning here is something I know. And it makes me think of like a preflight checklist almost. It's exactly a pre a preflight checklist.

I don't know the whole history, but basically after some accidents happened, because pilots who were taking planes off forgot to do really important things. Wow. They put in place, these checklists and these checklists have saved lives basically. Oh wow. Because they force. The pilots to perform this routine, right.

To make sure everything with the plane is healthy. Everything with the plane is functioning and literally it's saved lives. And so it almost makes me think this is kinda like a preflight preflight checklist for relationships. Yeah. And midflight , you can midflight right. There you go. And like we're losing altitude, right?

Like, right. So good love it. So let's get into the principles. So as you mentioned, there are four principles and, uh, I, yeah, I'm just so excited for people to learn them. So if you would teach us, break down these principles, how they work, we can start with value or however you wanna take it. But I was thinking we would start with value.

Cause I think that is the first actually, if, if it's okay with you, I'll start with boundaries because it just kind of makes the most sense to me. So yeah, go ahead. Um, which, okay, so, so I basically look at it like. Boundaries are the first things that we kind of kind of hit up against each other, uh, or hit up against when we're relating to each other.

Right. Is, um, which I would say like a basic sense of safety and respect and because we're body, mind and spirit, we, we get boundaries in all three of those areas. And even more than, than get boundaries, we as a kind of, as a. But like, we have them as a responsibility too. Right. We have a responsibility to set boundaries because those things are, are good self care.

And they enabled me to be able to bring my, a game to a situation. So I think a lot of times we don't get. Taught about boundaries or we get sent, you know, most often people tell me that they got sent a negative message about boundaries, like the boundaries weren't allowed. And I know for myself, got the message, like, who do you think you are if you're setting a, you know, if you're setting a boundary or something.

Hmm. But boundaries are really that first thing that we encounter when we're encountering the other. And, but I think when, when we have a basic sense of safety and respect from that person, then we naturally open. A little bit, you know, okay. I, I feel general sense of safety with this person, but we kind of see what they're about.

Right. And so then that door opens a little bit and I think the next, um, kind of chamber within that, that we reach is value. And I'd say value is if this person's respectful of my boundaries and they continue to relate to me in a way that shows me that they regard me with value based on my dignity as a human person.

or, you know, dignity as a child of God, then, then, okay. Then I feel a little bit safer and I'll even open that door a little bit. You know, it's a very different story when we are relating to somebody and we have a sense that they respect our boundaries. And so we open a little and then all of a sudden we start getting the message.

It's all about what I can get from you. You know what I mean? Right. Or it's based on like your looks or your money or your status or performance or your productivity, you know, there's. there's something in there that I'm trying to get outta you rather than just like, regarding you with dignity because you, you are.

And so then when that door opens a little, then I think what happens next is then we really like, let me let this person like really see and hear a little bit about who I really am. Right. And if they take the time to do that, then there's that sense of feeling known, right? If, if I'd say if. if we experience being seen and heard as an individual, who's very good.

Just very good. Like in our, in our essence, right? Like just again, because we are, it's not something we have to earn. And when that happens, then there's, there's this natural connection, you know, originally when I was seeing it as. Boundaries valued, known, and openness. I had an experience that taught me like, oh, you can't make an end run for openness.

Like, okay, all those things are nice, but I want this person to open. So I'm just gonna try to get my battering Ram out and bash that, that door down. Well, you can't, but when you relate to people, In a way that respects their boundaries and values them inherently. And you take the time to see and hear them as an individual.

Who's very good. That openness naturally happens because it's what we're made for. We're made for connection. I would, I throw chosen in there too, like really at the core, because sometimes the chosen being chosen is more of a it's more time limited, you know, it's not a forever kind of thing. Like really simple example would.

Being in a restaurant and wait staff is coming over and they're throwing the coasters on the table and they're like, hi, how's everybody doing today? You know? And like, good, good, good. If you don't look up, you know, or anything, and everything goes along, you know, just fine. But if you look up and you're like, oh, I'm doing well.

How are you doing? A lot of times they're like, oh, they're kind of taken back. And they're like, oh, I'm doing well. Thanks for asking, you know, it's almost like they kind of stammer like, oh my gosh, you're talking to me, like, I'm a human and not just what's between you and your stake, you know, or something like that, you know?

Yeah. Fair. So that's just being chosen in that moment. You know, it's not, you're gonna send a Christmas card necessarily to this person who waited on you and some relationships are a lot more, they last longer family relationships or friend relationships or things like that. And, and certainly when it.

Talking about it from a spiritual standpoint, it's at the core of our relationship with the Lord. He chose us first. And I think that same way that boundaries are the things we, we meet first with others and then being valued and then being known and then being chosen. I think it's really like when we talk about it from a spiritual perspective, God actually starts on the inside.

Right? Like he chose you out of all the possibilities of people he could possibly. Choose to create and redeem and sanctify and call intimacy with himself. He chose to create you. And then, you know, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, right? And then his value for us and pouring himself out for us and, and giving himself to us daily.

And then looking at his boundaries, I'd say is protection and provision would be kind of how I look at boundaries that seeing, looking at that from the Lord as, as morality, Really. And so it's like, because I choose, I chose to create you and I know you and I've poured myself out for you. Then I sat before you life and death, please, please, please use life.

It's gonna be so much easier if you do, you know, and in that way, being able to see boundaries from the Lord as. that's what he has for us instead of what he wants from us. Hmm. Because it makes a really big difference in how we receive it. You know, I, for myself, I went through a pretty significant period of time in my life where morality felt much more like what God wanted from me mm-hmm instead of it.

So ended up kind of much more like the older brother and the prodigal son where it's like, you. why is this guy get a fatted calf? And like, I'm over here busting my hump. And I don't even have, you know, a party with my friend, you know, kind of thing, you know, you get bitter and that kind of thing. Totally.

Instead of being able to receive the boundaries as, as gift, you know, primarily as God's protection and, and that kind of thing. So, so yeah, so I think it, it starts at the core. It starts on the inside, cuz God's on the inside, right? Not on the. wow. There's so much there. I know when my parents were going through their divorce and you know, I, I know they probably didn't intend this.

So often I felt like the only time I was involved in maybe their lives on a deep levels when they needed something from me, mm-hmm . And I think so often we see that with the people that we work with is that we almost, we feel used in a way by our parents. And I think just what you said at the end there about God, we just tend to project that image onto God thinking he's the same as our parents.

And so, you know, I, I think that's why a lot of people have an aversion to a relationship with God. It's like. I don't wanna be treated like that. I don't wanna be used. I don't think that he's worth my time, because if he's like my parents then, well, that's not something I'm wanna be a part of. So yeah.

There's a lot there. Anything you would say to that? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I feel like you logged, lobbed it right over the plate on that. So. When I went through trauma therapy, I came back from, from going through, you know, it was like intensive treatment and I came back home and I, I went to pray and I went to the, up to the chapel and I was sitting there and.

God took me like through that in my head showed me like how my father was, but like how he is and how my mom is. So to each one of those takeaway messages about how they parented me to the difference in how he is. And so just this past week with a person I was working with, we ended up with a whole sheet at the end of.

The week of something that, you know, the truth about God, and it was like, dad did this, but God does this, you know, mom did this, but God does that, you know, or that kind of thing. So parents are meant to image God for us. But unfortunately, sometimes that image isn't, it's not very favorable and so very sorted go back.

Yeah. And like rework. no. So true. Yeah, no, I've had to do, you know, a lot of work myself with kind of storing that it's something, right. To be honest, I'm wrestling with a bit right now. Um, just kind of going back to the basics in a way of seeing like, okay, you know, God, do you really want me, or are you just trying to get something out of me?

It's a very honest place to be, I think, especially to take that to prayer. Um, and I realize a lot of people listening might be opposed to that, but I would challenge you if you're listening right now. And you're just very opposed to a relationship with God. Why is that, you know, give us some thought. I think it's, it's worth thinking about it's worth kind of digging into a bit.

And I know it's been very fruitful when I've done that and just ask those honest questions and just wait, listen, see what happens. You know, you probably won't hear an audible voice, but there might be something that happens in your life, whether it's someone. Saying something to you. Some, I don't know a song you hear, it can be something as simple as that, a realization you have, those are sorts of things.

God uses to communicate to me. It's never audible, but it's often through one of those means of a realization or a relationship or something that just kind of comes up in my life. Yeah. It's, uh, it cuts to the heart of so much. I think of our issues with God when we, yeah. You hit the now in the head talking about kind of this problem that we have with seeing God like our parents.

Yeah. Or authority, authority, other people in authority can do that as well. You know, coaches or teachers, they can do the same. Kind of thing, you know, can image God for us in a way that's not necessarily the biggest compliment to God , you know? Yeah. And so then we kind of take that on and go, uh, no, not doing that, you know, at the bottom line, like God disagrees with that every bit, as much as we do , you know, if not more.

Right. And I think that's been something that's given me. Encouragement to like dig into those areas when I just didn't wanna have anything to do with him. Yeah. No, beautiful. That's hard work. Um, it's not something he, it's not something that happens overnight, but that's beautiful. I wanna go back to just this whole framer.

I think it's genius because so often when we talk about these things, it's really kind of like the whole picture of a relationship. It's all the points that you need. To live out a beautiful relationship relationship, a meaningful relationship, a fulfilling relationship. So often I think we maybe just focus on one of these pieces, whether it's boundaries or value or openness, or as we can say, vulnerability, I know it's a big thing that a lot of people talk about.

And so I love that you've kind of put them all together because I, I think they fit together so well. And so going back to. Value. I think this is a big struggling point for a lot of people. We feel worthless. Like, and, and I think that low opinion of ourselves often leads us to even hate ourselves. Mm-hmm um, I know in the past I've had to wrestle with that myself.

And so people might hear this and be like, oh, value, whatever. But I, I think it becomes very practical when you. Kind of dig into it as you explained really well of like, okay, I feel worthless. I feel like I have no value. I feel like I'm not worth loving. I feel like my value only comes from my work or from succeeding in school or sports or mm-hmm , you know, whatever situation like that.

So I think a lot of people listening right now are there right now, they feel worthless. And because of that, All of this other stuff just breaks down. Yeah. And so that's kind why I intuitively I don't know if it was from a past conversation or not, or from the book I intuitively went to value cuz I was thinking, man, that's so foundational, but I, I think it's wise that you started with boundaries.

So yeah, I, growing up, I kind of got that instill in me that your value comes from more of a utilitarian point of view of. The value provided in your job, or like I said, school or sports, things like that, or even money, you know, how big is your bank account? Mm-hmm so when we're talking about value though, you, you hit on it before, but I wanna go a little bit deeper into this.

What do we mean by that? How can we say that people have inherent value? Is that really something that, um, People might disagree with that a little bit. I, I don't, but I, I think, uh, I think it's important to kind of explain a little bit more, so yeah. If you would, yeah. About that, the, yeah, I'd say the meaning of it is that we have an inherent dignity.

That's not contingent on any external factor at all. You know, and even if our, I think for females, a lot of times it's looks, you know, it's based on looks for guys. I think it's more on performance, you know? As in real general sweeping statement. Right. And, but when you take all of that away, there's still like a beauty to the human person, just because we're made in the image and likeness of God.

And so it doesn't matter if, when the wrinkles start to come and, and when you get slower, Running the marathon or, you know, or whatever it is, mm-hmm , then it doesn't matter. There's still a beauty there to, to the, the soul that's like that can't be seen and can't, doesn't have a price tag, you know? And so, and it's actually like, to me, like one of the things that proves the truth of it is actually because when people operate out of that belief and that truth, everything goes well.

And when they operate as though it's not true. Everything breaks down. Right. So, wow. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So to me, like it, it is its own proof. You know, this is, it is its own proof of truth. Like, because when people hinge their, their value on some arbitrary metric that's outside of themselves, then they usually either full of anxiety because now I have I'm self-reliant for my own value or.

Like overextending themselves and then super impatient with people who get in their way, because they have so much to accomplish because they're fighting for their own sense of right to be on the planet. And yet when people start from that place of that, they have inherent value. There's just, there's a freedom and a joy, you know, it goes back to those freedom and joy.

That really flows outwards and it, it's not self consumed, you know? And it's yeah. So it, it proves the truth of it to me, you know, within itself. Yeah. And I've seen that in action. Um, I'm thinking of someone right now who just puts so much received so much of their worth or value from their job. Mm-hmm and I remember this particular person was outta work for a long time and it just destroyed.

It just destroyed them. And once they got back into work, it was like they had life again, which mm-hmm I guess it was a good thing. I don't know how to think about that, cuz it wasn't good before that, but I wish there was this alternative, like why, you know, couldn't they see themselves as a valuable human, even if.

They didn't couldn't work. Didn't work, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And I think that better, we get that worked out before we retire. Right. Or we're gonna be pretty miserable, retired people. Gosh. Amen. Yeah. And one of the things, when you were speaking that came to mind is I think so many people doubt their value because of.

The mistakes that they've made. It's like, well, I've messed up so much in my life. I've mistreated people. I've heard people I've, you know, I have this addiction in my past or, you know, whatever had broken down in their past. I think so much. They, they look at that and they see. Well, I'm not really that valuable.

In fact, I pretty much just deserve to be punished and that's about it. But we're saying here, your value doesn't change based on even your own mistakes. Is that right? Or it might get into murky water there. Oh yeah, no, no, no, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Our values, of course, I come in from a Christian perspective.

So I'd say, you know, I look at it like when somebody's wearing a, a crucifix or a cross or whatever, like that's their price tag. Like, that's what they're worth, you know what I mean? And that doesn't change. Their price has been set, set and paid and it's not on them to, to pay it. And the price doesn't, it's not, somebody's going around and res stickering the price on them.

No beautiful. And that makes sense. And the book obviously goes into this a lot more, so we'll keep moving. One of the things I wanted to say, one of the most beautiful things about being a dad now is just that I can, you know, attempt to offer my daughter, uh, what I really wish I would've had. And one of the things that.

You know, I've seen a lot just in my life, especially in ministry, working with people, opening up to me is just that. So often there's so many lives we believe, and I think this would be one of them like we're talking about is like, I'm not valuable. I'm not worth anything. I'm not worth loving. Mm-hmm so one of the things I've tried to do, and I encourage parents listening right now, especially new parents to do this is like, I just.

I have this whole litany. I kind of like say to my daughter, I'm like, okay. And I won't go through all of it right now, but one of the things I tell her, I'm like, Lucy, like, you're so worth loving. Like you're so worth loving. Like you're so lovable and you're so worth loving. And my hope it gets me kind of emotional.

But my, my hope is that that just like seeps into her so deep, like down to her bones, like down to her core that. When she, you know, goes through life, like when she's no longer with us, when she's struggling as a teenager, like she will believe that at her core. And maybe there'll be struggles there. I don't doubt that, but I, but I hope that she has like such that foundation that she just goes through life with such peace, with such confidence, with such freedom and joy and all the things that I think so much of us, so many of us want.

So anyway, I wanted to mention that. Cause I think as, as parents, those of us listening, our parents, we can. Um, speak into those places. Almost preemptively kind of like this whole framework is meant to prevent trauma. We can speak into those places into the lives of our children. Yeah. So real quick story.

So I'm not, I don't know if I shared about it in the book, but a friend of mine when her son was 12 he's 18 now, but when he was 12, I was at one of his football games. He was in middle school. And I'll spare you the story to just kind of condense this, but he was playing football and I was at his game. He did something that was like really outstanding, not a football play.

It was a very human interaction with another person. It was like exceedingly, compassionate and good sportsmanship and just like. yeah, really kind of stand out. And so I text his mom who was sitting in the stands and I'm like, do you see him? And she's like, oh my gosh, I love that boy. You know? And so later it, I was at their house because I needed her to show me something on my computer, cuz she was more tech savvy than me.

And, um, he was heading into his room and she went, she was sitting on the arm of the couch, you know, I'm sitting on the couch and she's like leaning down over it showing me, oh, you need to do this and this. And, um, when he goes walking by, she went, oh, you know, just like to herself, like, oh yeah. I wanted to say something to him after, you know, he'd come home and got in a shower and eaten and all that.

So she, she calls him, you know, she's like Zach and he goes, yeah, mom. And she says, I like who you are. Hmm. I'm like, by the time she gets back to the couch, I'm like ugly crying. You know what I mean? and she's like, oh my gosh, are you okay? And I'm like, that's so beautiful. Like how many, how many people never hear?

I like who you are. Yeah. You know, and, and it's, and it's not to villainize saying good job to somebody. Sure. But that's so much the natural. And so then we can take away, like I have good news because I did a good job and like, that's. That's not it. And it's, it's not to say that's necessarily like inherently, mentally unhealthy or something.

Sure. But, but I think there really is something to focusing on applauding somebody for who they are over and above what they did. You know, the courage that it took to do this or that, or the dedication that it took to do this or that, or the integrity, or, you know, whatever, as opposed to the, the job, you know, make it about their being instead of their doing.

Right. So good. I love that. Yeah. And I think even being particular with your language is important there. And instead of just saying good job, like you said, saying, I like, you know how you are. I, I love how you did that. Or even when it comes to kids, I don't mean to make this such a parenting thing for anyone who's like younger, and who's not a parent, not even thinking about a parent, you can kind of put yourself on the opposite end of this.

And, and I can do that with myself too. And thinking like mm-hmm yeah. I would've loved to hear that. That, that would been awesome. Right. It. Thinking back to how, yeah, so many of us just crave that and, and we want that, but you know, we can say someone did a good job and then, but at the same time distinguish, and again, I've my wife and I are kind of working on this right now, but we wanna do that with our daughter.

We wanna applaud her for, um, her efforts. saying, you know, good job like you did really well. You're trying so hard. Like you've grown so much in this area. Mm-hmm but Mo more importantly, just like applaud her for just the person that she is. Right. And not, you know, even using different languages. Like she's really well behaved.

That's about her actions, but she's so good. That's about her right. Inherent value. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, it might seem kind of insignificant, but I think it does, especially after years and years of compounding, if we can speak that into the people in our lives. I think you can have a really, really big impact.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I see it on a yeah. Daily basis when I'm working with people, just the, you can tell. Their, their value of themself is formed based off of whether they, you know, whether it was for getting good grades in school or for being star athlete or being super helpful around the house or being the peacemaker or whatever, you know?

Sure. As opposed to that, there was this unshakeable value that they had, that that was unchanging. And that's, I think that that sense of security is the stuff that like yeah. That peace is made of. Yeah. So good. I love that. That sense of security, cuz so often we talk about insecurities, but the opposite would be yeah, just that deep sense of security.

Mm-hmm I know who I am. I know I'm good. I know I'm worth loving. I know that. Yeah. I have a lot to offer to, to people in my life. Not just for what I can do, but just who I am and so good love this. Can someone who's not religious benefit from this framework. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that was where I saw it first was, you know, I was, had been practicing trauma therapy for a very long number of years and started noticing this pattern and, but noticed it, and, you know, in terms of human dynamics, wait, these connection is what people bring up to me.

If they come for a week of intensive. Trauma therapy and bring up anything beautiful. Like it always has to do with connection, you know, to God's self for others. And so realized that first and then, oh yeah. It's about boundaries, valued, known, and openness. Like those were always the things. And so it was, I noticed it in, uh, human to human, like relationship first.

It was only like going back, working that backwards. Like wait, when we relate to ourselves that. Then that fosters like integrity and that sense of like human integration. Right. And then like, wait, this is how God relates to us too. So it was only going backwards that, that I found that that was like really, to me, like the higher authority.

that besides just Margaret saying these things are important, but like, wait, this is the way the Lord relates to us. So there must be something solid about this. . Yeah, like I said, you know, I noticed it in human relationships and it, so it, yeah, it gets us just on the, and you know, human relationships with others.

But again, you know, with ourselves as well, so good. Yeah. And no, I, I think that what you said, it's just, it's a human thing. So even if you know, you're not in a place right now where you feel like God could. Kind of in the equation, then it's just a human thing. It'll improve your relationships and it'll improve.

Mm-hmm , you know, the way you feel about yourself, which is so good. You mentioned the story before of the mom and the son, you know, who kind of learned this framework and he started using it. Oh yeah. Did you have any other stories about people who just really benefited from learning these principles and then starting to live them in their own.

Yeah. Yeah. A couple of people come to mind in particular people I've worked with in treatment and a couple of 'em have I continue to have contact with. and then being able to say how their in their living situations, the people they're relating to that are able to just let go of being so annoyed by things that used to annoy them like on a daily basis, uh, you know, feeling disregarded or not listened to, or overlooked or, you know, whatever it was in different community situations.

And so, because of recognizing what was going on and digging back into. Sense of, you know, if I'm, if I don't feel known out here by this other person and that's really grading on me then, oh, I do. I feel known by myself. Yeah. Okay. I, I am regarding myself as someone who's very good. And yet I still feel the need to, to experience that.

Okay. So I can drop anchor so to speak, like in God, like to get that filled up, if I'm feeling like it's some, you know, like an area that's really lacking and as this person's done that. This, you know, kind of more tendency to complain about that and really kind of let that get him down then. Like it's just not there anymore.

And so he just operates with like this degree of peace and. Man. We just keep coming back to that word. Don't we? But yeah. Yeah. Like it's like, it's almost like not even on the radar, you know, so much so. Hmm. So that's so that's cool. Yeah. Also seen it be, uh, become like the rules of engagement, you know, so to speak in relationships like, okay.

Somebody I worked with quite recently, this was a, a woman and she was able to re. Her own behavior is why she had responded the way she did in the situation to her husband. And then also like to take the same thing and apply it to him and go, oh, these are the things he needs as well. Wow. And then, um, so it didn't just lead to, this is how we need to relate, but it actually led her from a place of feeling hurt about something to actually a place of compassion for him.

And so I was. Wow. There's a lot. Once people kind of, once you see it, you can't not see it, you know, as the necessary ingredients. And when you realize, you know, I think there's that first level of, okay, this is what I need and okay. I can get how this applies to me and how this affects me. But when you go, uh, this is what this person needs to.

And then, then you really got it, you know? And then you're, it's not just about yourself and you really understand more of. Why things happen and you're able to not personalize things when hurts happen, you know, not internalize them as personal. so good. Love it. Yeah. And I'm sure you have a million other stories, which we don't have time for, but do I'm the book has more of those stories.

Yeah. There's I, I'm pretty sure there's good bit of stories in there. Kind of how, how the framework came to, to my mind in particular first and yeah. There's different things in there. And a few words, I'm just curious, how have you benefited from it? Cuz this is obviously something you discovered put language to, but yeah.

I'm curious how this has kind of played out in your own. Gosh. So I'm, I'm the kid from the time I was little, I was always why, why, why, why I was that kid, right? so it's helped me understand why to like so many things, like so many things. Well, there's this line in Batman begins. Okay. Which is a highly philosophical movie.

It's a fantastic, that's my favorite movie. That's my favorite. Oh really? Yeah. I Julia, like you even more natural you too. so, you know, he says like, we always fear what we don't understand. And I just think that's you remember the, the who's a, the drug, the mafia guy basically like, right that under Lord guy and yeah, I.

Relationships can just be so confounding, you know, because people can be so complex and we're all also different from each other, as much as we really have more in common. But when there can just be this kind of like swirl of like, why is a person doing this? Or why is this happen? Or why is this bothering me so much?

Or lots and lots and lots of whys. And so to me, it always goes back to, to two multiple choice questions. It's like, okay, is it a breakdown in connection to God's self or others? okay. And then the next question would be, is it about boundaries, value being known or openness? Boom. So like two questions and I'm able to get to the crux of what's going on in a situation and kind of like write the ship, you know, internally when I feel like I'm losing my piece or something.

And so, yeah, so it's, it's been very, it's been a blessing to me, so good. It almost makes me think of like an analogy of. You know, relating to another person is John Paul. The second would talk about like throwing a bridge. It's like we're walking across a bridge to an island that is another person. And it almost makes me think of this framework is the bridge.

Yeah. That, that bridge is the connection. And if you want the connection, you need these four. Pieces in place mm-hmm right, right. Yeah. What we're, it's what we're made for. Right. So if I go up, you know, if we're in the same place and we're having a conversation and, and I like cover your mouth and nose and then expect you to be able to, to be able to survive and be able to carry on the conversation, like that's.

That's silly. It's not gonna work. Yeah. You know, but we do the same thing on this invisible level in terms of, you know, de depriving each other of what, just what we need in order to relate healthily. Yeah. No, so good. I think that we focus so much on the physical and what's before our eyes and our world and our very materialistic world.

So it's. A good reminder, that there's so much more happening below the surface that can't be seen. So good. Uh, aside from buying the book, what's one thing that you would say someone listening right now who wants to live these principles out, what what's maybe one thing that they can do today to begin living out these principles.

I always think it starts with self-compassion when I'm working with somebody and, and they get to that point where they're able to, to really have compassion for themself in whatever painful things they've gone through. It's a game changer. You can't do that based on just, you know, you're not brimming over with warm, fuzzy feelings towards yourself.

Then, you know, if you have a relationship with the Lord, then that's. You can kind of dig into that, right? His compassion for yourself, you know, for you and for your suffering and stuff. And that's, you know, somebody had asked me once, like, self-compassion, isn't that the same as like narcissism? I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Self-compassion is imitation of Christ. Right? Because he has compassion for us, you know, and I really think being able to. To have that and kind of, even if it's a fake until you make it, you know, kind of at first. Sure. And, and just really growing in that, you know, it's the whole idea. You can't give what you don't have, you know, so you have compassion for yourself.

Really your compassion for others is gonna be on shaky ground. But when you're able to be understanding and accepting and compassionate towards yourself, then you're able to more readily give that instead of always looking to like, to get that need met by others. Oh, that makes so much sense. And I think that's something we, we all can grow in, which is such a good challenge, which I love kind of leaving it at that.

But I did wanna just ask you, I know you're starting a, a new ministry. Tell us about that. Tell us what you offer, if you would. Yeah. Yeah, I'm very excited about it. Um, it's just, I've learned so many principles over the last six, 16 years of doing intensive trauma therapy and so really wanna make those available.

I've started doing retreats for, I've done some for, you know, for priests, for deacons, deacons and their wives. And then, um, most recently I did two for, for lay people and just taking basically the same, because these are the principles. Where health and wholeness happen. They're also the same areas where pain happens.

And so taking the same things and making them available in a retreat format. So we can really kind of access those areas where woundedness happens and I've seen. I've seen amazing stuff happen in a very short amount of time that I just never really thought could happen that quickly. And that's really exciting for me because you know, the kind of work I've, done's been one week with the same person, like for the whole week.

And so to be able to reach more than one person, you know, in the retreat format, Through the course of the retreat has been, has been great. So, so retreats, um, father David, ticker, hoof, who's one of the Tor friers and I recorded an online retreat. That's up on my website doing workshops. We're actually like teaching people, the principles and some actual tools to be able to address.

Pain from wounds they've incurred in the past, but also to be able to relate to themselves and the people in their life, more healthily. So workshop, format, retreat format, online retreats kind of thing. Beautiful speaking. Yeah. Yeah. Excited. Yeah. I'm so excited to see how this grows and just the people it helps.

Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Did, uh, was there anything else you wanted say. No, no, no, just excited. Just excited. You know, it's been like a dream come true for, it's been a long, it's been a long haul and I love trauma therapy, but I don't know. There's something about rounding the corner as you get older and going wait, like even if I live to be a hundred, there's only a certain number of people I could reach.

So just wanting to be able to reach more people so good. And if someone wants to bring in to do a workshop or retreat, uh, speaking engagement or anything else that you offer, uh, how can they. Yeah. If they just contact me through my website, then we can get the ball rolling. So sacred heart healing, ministries.com, or email me at Margaret sacred heart healing, ministries dot.

Sounds great. We'll throw that in the show notes guys. So you have easy access to that, but Margaret, thank you so much. You're great. I, uh, always love, uh, talking with you and I'm excited to, to work with you more in the future. And, uh, yeah, I just wanna give you kind of the last word, any final wisdom you'd like to impart to everyone listening when it comes to connection, when it comes to trauma, when it comes to anything related to that, what encouragement would you give to, to everyone?

Wow. Yeah, I would just really say hope because, you know, I mean, I can talk about all this. Like it's, you know, like, like it's so natural to me, but man, if, gosh, as recently as 2003, which I guess is getting 19 years ago at this point, but in some ways it seems like only yesterday when I was. You know, suicidal for 18 months and hospitalized twice and on so many medications and nobody could figure out what was going on.

So, um, so I would just really say hope because I never thought the degree of, of peace and contentment, joy that I live with. Like I never thought was. Possible this side of heaven. so I just say, hang in there. There's more to life than surviving for sure.

Which of the four principles that Margaret taught us is lacking the most in your life. . And in addition to that, what's one thing that you can do today or this week to grow in that area. Give that some thought it doesn't have to be long. It can be a five or 10 minute exercise, but give it some thought, which of the four principles that Margaret taught is lacking the most in your life.

What's one thing you can do to grow in that area. If you enjoyed my conversation with Margaret, you wanna learn more about her connection framework? Just buy Margaret's book fearless. You can get that on Amazon, wherever you buy books, you can click on the link in the show notes as well. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restorministry.com slash 63.

Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole. And become the person that you were born to be.

#037: Trauma: What It Is and How It Damages You | Margaret Vasquez

What is trauma? How does it affect a person? Today, licensed trauma therapist Margaret Vasquez answers those questions and more:

• Why your parents' divorce, separation, or broken marriage can be so traumatic

• The antidote to trauma, which will surprise you

• How trauma therapy works, why it is so effective, and the incredible result she's seen

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More Than Words: The Freedom to Thrive after Trauma

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

A word that we use a lot these days and we use it a lot on this show too, is the word trauma, but what exactly is trauma and how does it affect us today? We dive into those questions and we give you guys answers. We speak with a, a trauma therapist, a counselor specializes in helping people. Who've been through something traumatic in their lives to heal so they can feel whole again.

And by listening to this episode, you're gonna get a bunch out of it. We're gonna talk about why is your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage? So traumatic. My guest shares the antidote to trauma. Something that she's discovered through years and years of counseling. And I think it'd be surprised by the answer.

She also shares her story, her personal story. This isn't just someone who read this stuff in books and learned it, but she's been through a lot herself. She came from an extremely dysfunctional family. She ran away from home and. 17. She was misdiagnosed with bipolar hospitalized twice. She says she was taking basically every medication that you can imagine.

She was super depressed. She couldn't keep a job. And she was actually on the brink of suicide. And as the last stitch effort, she went through trauma therapy after her counselor recommended it and something amazing happened immediately. Her life started to change. She no longer felt depressed. No longer felt anxious, suicidal, hopeless anymore.

And now she helps a ton of people every year through, uh, an improved version of the model that she went through. And so, again, this is just someone who learned this stuff in a book and has helped people, which there's value to that. No doubt, but she's been through it herself. And so she talks about how trauma therapy works, why it's so effective and some incredible results that she's seen in her own practice.

And so if you or someone, you know, feels broken, who's been through something traumatic in their life. This episode is gonna help you so much. Not only is it gonna give you hope, but it'll also give you some really practical things that you can do some really helpful information so that you can heal and move on with your.

You do not wanna miss this episode, keep listening

what to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce or separation. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 37. And before we dive in, I just wanna give a quick shout out to those of you who have left us a review on apple podcast.

Thank you so much for doing that. Sheele left a five star review and said, I've always said that I'm okay. That what happened couldn't have changed who I was. Of course it changed me. I still run away from many topics related to divorce, but listening to this podcast, isn't like hearing a bunch of psychologists.

Tell me all the ways that I'm really. Okay. It's so much more helpful to hear this is not okay. And it never will be okay, but I can be. I love that. Thank you so much slowly for, for that review. And I wanted to ask you, would you leave us a review as well? Some of the benefits for us is that it really helps us to know how we're doing to serve you guys.

How, how the content we're producing is helping you or maybe not helping you. It also gives us some more visibility in apple podcast so we can reach more people. We can help more people. And it's actually really easy to leave a review in the apple podcast app. If you click on our show, the official name of the show is stored helping children of divorce.

Just click on our show, scroll down to ratings and reviews that under that section, there's two ways to leave a review. You can tap to review. That means just clicking on the stars and that's helpful. But the thing that's most helpful is if you click write a review that's just below and that gives us more insight into your experience with the show and it doesn't need to be long.

It can be 60 to 90 seconds of your time. And if you need a question to help you prompt your review, answer this question, how has this show helped? We really appreciate the time you take to leave a review and we take those super seriously. So thank you guys for leaving reviews. My guest today is Margaret Vasquez.

Margaret is a licensed professional clinical counselor. She developed the N I method that stands for neuro reformatting and integration of trauma therapy as an adaptation of the ITR model. And that stands for instinctual trauma response model. We're gonna talk about all this in the show, uh, but with a focus on connection as an essential ingredient to attachment health wellness and post-treatment growth, Margaret has treated clients of all ages and backgrounds for over 12 years, considering an expert in the field of trauma therapy in this method of treatment, she has appeared on numerous television radio shows and has been cited in numerous books.

And she also has extensive experience presenting to non-clinical and clinical groups. I'm so excited for you to, to hear from Margaret to learn from here. So here's my fascinating conversation with Margaret Vasques.

Margaret, welcome to the show. I really appreciate you making time for this. Thanks, Joey. I appreciate you inviting me. I wanna start with a, a really basic question. What is trauma? What's the definition of trauma? The simplest definition of trauma that I like to use is any event that overwhelms a person's normal ability to cope.

And so kind of, you can kind of imagine, like, in that definition itself kind of contains the idea that that varies from person to person, right? Because what overwhelms one person might not overwhelm another and that kind of thing. So it's a real, it's real particular to the person. So I kind of like that, that like, understanding that because.

If we understand that, then we don't compare and go, oh, well, this didn't bother that person, but it really bothers me. And so what's wrong with me, you know? So it, it really all has to do with our perspective in the situation and our perception of it, and really our personal experience of it as to if we're traumatized by.

By an event or not. Okay. No, that makes so much sense. So if you would, what's an example, I guess, of a traumatic event that you typically see. I know, based on what you said, it varies for people, but what's something that's kind of a typical traumatic event. And I know some people talk about trauma in terms of like a big tea trauma versus a little tea trauma.

What would some examples be to help people listening right now who may not have a handle on that? Yeah, sure. Um, so one of, so kinda some of the obvious ones would be, um, abusive, any kind. You know, physical, emotional, spiritual, sexual, verbal, natural disaster or accidents can be traumatic as well. It it's so funny because so often people say, well, couldn't have been worse.

You know what? I went through, like, couldn't have been worse and I'll say, well, it could always have been worse or we wouldn't be having this meeting. Right. Mm-hmm cause we're still alive. You know? So I think it's, I think it's more, it makes more sense to compare it to what we're made for. Instead of couldn have been worse because if something bothered us, that's enough reason.

You know, if it was traumatizing to us, if it overwhelmed my, my year, whoever's personal ability to cope, then that, and of itself is reason enough for it to be trauma. I often say like in trainings, I call it trauma. When I'm with my brothers, we call it childhood. You know, so, and I guess it's just kind of make that distinction because people can tend to, to minimize and kind of beat themselves up for, for things bothering them.

Right. And kind of say, I should have been more thick skinned or tougher, or I'm being wimpy or self pity or, you know, or whatever that these things are getting to me. And it's really not. A matter of that. So some of the things that people typically think of as trauma are like combat or violent crimes, but it, it can really run the gamut.

One of the biggest ones that I work with with people is biggest meaning one of the ones that that's the most affect most affects people is bullying. And, and that's really sad cuz that's something that's kinda rampant today. Definitely. Wow. And it's um, I, I think you were a spot on in saying that a lot of people think of trauma as just this huge event in my life.

Like you said, a big natural disaster, something very dramatic that happened like going to war, you know, something like that, but it's a great point that it can be something that maybe is less dramatic. It can be something that, uh, a lot of people may write off as not being very important or being something that they should be able to have a handle on.

Yeah. Well, you know, I kind of, I kind of got scolded in this back in early days of practice and I was working with a young veteran and. He had been through a lot of verbal abuse from his father. And he said to me worse for him than hand to hand combat was verbal abuse from, from his dad when he was a little boy and kind of intuitively like just in my gut, that made sense to me.

But I just, you know, I just asked him this to say more about that. And he said, well, when I, when I went in the army, they gave me a gun and said, people are gonna be shooting at you. Go defend yourself. That wasn't how it was when I was seven years old, little boy sitting at the breakfast table, eating my breakfast, you know, and my person who was supposed to be protecting me was just verbally decimating me, you know?

And while that kind of really put it in perspective, you know, absolutely. Like in one case he was totally unprepared. And then in the other case, he had training, he had somewhat of an expectation of what he would be going into, but that wasn't the case in his childhood. Yeah. And I, and I think also kind of going along with that is the person that he expected protection from was instead the assailant.

Right. Whereas like over in, I don't even remember what, what country he was fighting in Afghanistan or Iraq or where it was, but he didn't ex he didn't have an expectation of safety. He certainly didn't have an expectation of protection from the enemy. Right. Instead like the person who was sadly. Playing the part of the enemy was the person he should have had, you know, he had a right to have expectation of safety and, and even protection from mm.

Yeah, absolutely. That, that makes so much sense when it comes to a person experiencing trauma. How does it affect a person again? I know you said it, it varies per person, but what are some common themes that, that you've. It's one of those things that just can really run the gamut. So I'll get in. I can get into more of explaining my answer to this, but, but it affects us physically, always.

And that has to do with how the brain encodes trauma, like the biological response that happens in the brain when trauma happens. So first and foremost, it affects us physically like it in a way that we can't even see, you know, that just in terms of how it becomes encoded in our, in our brain. Um, but cause of that, cause of how it becomes encoded.

Can emotionally continue to be experienced, like it's still going on. So you can take any of the painful, negative emotions from a traumatic experience. And, and those can continue like on a, you know, hourly, daily, weekly month in and month out, that kind of thing continue to be experienced. Like it's still happening.

So, you know, for example, fear, anxiety or anger, sense of helplessness or hopelessness. Those think things can continue to be experienced like way down the road, you know, for, for years and years, because also because of how it becomes encoded in the brain, it can affect us cognitively. So our ability to, to problem solve can be compromised.

It can make it really difficult to articulate things, but be able to put words on things, to express how we're feeling, which can then leave us. More isolated from other people because we really feel like we can have, have a hard time communicating and help getting other people to understand kind of where we're coming from or how we're feeling.

It can also affect just kind of simple things as far as like the ability to prioritize or be organized, can affect reading. Comprehension can affect our ability to do math, can also make it where memory is really hard. Just the ability to remember things, short term memory, that kind of thing. And it can also affect us spiritually just having to do with that sense of like powerlessness and helplessness and kind of that sense of like, if we're we're in that mode where we, we feel isolated and alone and like kind of like we're on our own, right.

Mm-hmm so we're kind of like abandoned and rejected can kind of project that onto, onto God as well. And so, and it can end up affecting us relationally because all these things can leave a person really feeling like. They're broken and flawed. And so then because of that can leave people tending to kind of isolate or tending, to feel like really kind of desperate and needy.

And so relying that much more on, on other people. And I can, if we, if we stay stuck kind of feeling like very angry, then obviously that can kind of come out and really unfortunate ways in, in relationships also, you know, kind of left feeling abandoned or rejected. You can. Tend to project that onto other people where it's not really objectively the case, but the kind of the messages that we took on and the traumas can become like these lenses that we then like, tend to look at the world and other people through.

So it can really, really complicate situations relationally. Yeah. No, that makes so much sense. So thinking through, you know, the people that we work with, uh, and have restored, you know, people who come from broken homes or parents are separated or divorced, uh, it reminds me of someone who, who mentioned that they, uh, felt like they were almost in competition with, or had to defend against their spouse.

And, uh, based on what you just said, how trauma can leave your brain, experiencing the trauma again, and again, as if there's no time limit on it, it's like an infinite mm-hmm , I, it almost made me think of that. And I've experienced this too in my own marriage where, you know, I, I kind of react to things in not a logical way.

It's like, I'm not using the front part of the brain, the, um, smart part of me. And it just seems like I'm reliving, maybe something that happened in the past where, you know, I, I found out that my parents were separating and that was certainly traumatic for me personally. And, uh, anyway, I could see how, uh, people who come from broken homes maybe could project, like you said, some of the brokenness of their parents onto their future spouse.

Yeah, absolutely. Because if we, you know, in our mind, if our takeaway is like, okay, I'm not gonna let anybody treat me. This again, because that feels really bad and really painful. And so then anything that, that we could perceive from our fear, right. Instead of from, from like real clarity and sense of truth, but more of kind of that nature reaction and going like, oh no, this is that right.

And so it kind of itchy trigger finger, that sort of thing. So, and that's actually for a. Biological reason because the, the limbic system, which is the emotional center of the brain takes less than 20 milliseconds to respond to a stimuli. So something that's a reminder of, you know, whatever painful thing takes less than 20 milliseconds to respond.

But the smart part of our brain, like you're talking about takes more than 500 milliseconds to respond, right? So that, that knee jerk reaction sadly goes off like 25 times faster than the smart part of our brain's able to, you know, kind of show up to the task and try to make sense of it. Wow. No, that is fascinating.

And it makes sense why? I mean, it makes sense why it is that way. Cuz in survival situations, we, we really want that, that part of our. The survival part of our brain to be that quick to react. But it is unfortunate when that's like constantly on, in, you know, our relationships and everyday life when it really doesn't need to be.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Kind of leaves us like wired for, for war, but war's not a really good thing to be wired for when you're in a marriage. Right. Or in a family or, you know, or with friends, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. No, that makes sense. Huh? It's this just a side note I thought of, um, I know, uh, a lot of special operators, like Navy seals and guys like that.

They have a really hard time with their marriages and there's some practical, logistical things like that. Cause they're away from home a lot. Um, and you know, I'm sure there's more factors involved, but I wonder if that's part of. My understanding is that police officers do too, for the same reason, kind of that it's almost like it can leave.

You feel having that really isolated feeling like there's an experience of reality that I have that is so far from anything that, that anybody else can even imagine. And so it just leaves you really kind of isolated. And then when you have that kinda knee jerk reaction going off to, to things and, you know, intensified fear and that, you know, can obviously come out.

In a lot of different ways, anger, anxiety, or things that complicates relationships and certainly think it was complicated. Marriage. Yeah. Fascinating. Wow. Now on the opposite side, so, you know, we've heard kind of how, um, trauma can affect people negatively. Is it possible to, to handle trauma properly? I don't know if properly is the right word, cuz a lot of times, you know, it's not something that we control.

But, um, but is there a way to handle trauma? Well, one of the, the main things is part of what makes a trauma, a trauma is how it gets taken care of. And, uh, I'll give you an example that a supervisor gave me years ago when I was, when I was just an intern. And he said, he, he said that to me, he said that very thing, you know, part of what makes a trauma, a trauma is how it gets taken care of.

And I said, you know, what do you mean by that? And he said, well, he had grown up in Pittsburgh. And so one particular, he pick particular day, he was, he was just a little boy. And he was out with a bunch of friends and they were playing a game of pickup football in a empty corner lot. And he got tackled onto a piece of a jagged pipe.

That seems like it was probably about a sticking up outta the ground, maybe for about a foot, you know? And it was jagged and broken off. Yeah. And he was tackled onto it and it kind of cut his calf and it was just, he was really bleeding and, and he went home and. His mom was kind of freaking out. like, she couldn't couldn't handle the, the blood and kind of everything.

Right. So she's kind of losing it. And so, but his grandfather lived a couple of doors down and so she took him over to his grandfather and his grandfather was just like really calm and really patient and really loving and just got him like all cleaned up and bandaged up and, and took him for ice cream.

And so he says, instead of remembering that event as a traumatic event, he remembers it as a time where he felt like he really got taken care of. And I thought that was like, that was so interesting. You know, it's something that that's kind of become, uh, a really big part of my practice and how I've started seeing trauma.

It's something that something you and I haven't talked about, but it's in, it's been in the last couple of years, I had started noticing this pattern in my practice that it didn't matter the age of the person, the, you know, if they're male or female, you know, if they were super smart or if they were just kind of more simple, like anywhere, you know, any factor you can change up.

Right. And I started noticing that consistent thing was that if somebody brought up something to me, that was just this really, really beautiful experience, which you can imagine doesn't happen a lot when people come to talk about trauma. Right? Sure. But if they were bringing something like that up, it always had to do with a profound sense of connection to either themself or another person or God.

always. And so once I started noticing this, Jo was kind of like, I was kind of geeking out on this. Right. Like I was like, oh, this is fascinating. Like connection is like the antithesis of trauma. Right. It's like the exact opposite. So it's, it's the antidote and which kind of makes sense. Right. It's what we're made for.

Right. Sure. And wow. So then I was kind of like, that was fascinating. It was super cool. Then I started thinking, you know, after a couple of weeks of having this like nugget of revelation and I started thinking. Well, gee what's what's connection comprised of like, that's just kind of this fluffy term, like what's, what's it made of.

And so then started noticing this pattern that it always had to do with our boundaries being respected and which gives us that kind of like fundamental sense of safety. Right. I think, and safety and respect. Right? So there's a place where, where I stop and you start, and I don't, I, I have to have respect for that space, you know, I don't get to just come trudging into, to your space physically, emotionally and spiritually because we're body mind.

Absolutely. Um, so that was one thing boundaries. Right? And then the second thing was value. So it always had to do with the person being treated like they had inherent value. Like they didn't have to earn their value. They just had, they had dignity because they were a human being. That's it and, and didn't have to earn it.

It wasn't based on looks or performance or status or money or, or anything like that. Right. And then the third thing was having that sense of feeling known. So, which I kind of come to, um, to kind of like define as like being seen and heard as an individual. Who's very good. Like very good kind of going back to like Genesis and the Bible.

Right. And then the fourth thing was openness. Cause we kinda, we have to be, have some degree of openness in order to experience those things, another person, right. Even tiny bits of openness. But then the thing I started noticing was that the openness is really a byproduct. Of those four things or those three things, right.

If somebody respects my boundaries and treats me as though I already have value, it's not like I have to earn my value from them and takes the time to really like, see and hear me, then we kind of naturally open, right. Cause we're like we're made for connection. And those three, three things like send us like this really big, you know, message of you're safe in every way, you know?

And so I think those things, like if there's a way to say survive trauma, well, like I would say, you know, kind of like recover from it naturally. Like if you know, something just happened to someone, it it's kind of, you know, showing up with. Those three things and helping that person not feel isolated and not feel like they have to earn their value, or if they have to protect themselves or feel isolated and that kind of thing.

Wow, this is so fascinating. So many different levels to, to everyone listening, who maybe you don't come from a broken home, but you love, or you lead someone who does, this is a great takeaway for you too. And it reminds me of just the fact Margaret that when someone goes through something traumatic, like the worst thing that we can do is just try to get 'em to cheer up.

I know a lot of people, well, intentioned people say, well, look on the bright side or a typical one. When it comes to us going through your parents' divorce, it's like, well, we now, you know, you have twice as many presents, twice as many birthdays Christmases, you get two houses, like trying to get people to see the bright side.

But, um, this shows me that , you know, that model that you just laid out, that the need for connection being the antidote to trauma, that that really proves that that is so unhelpful. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. And of course, like you're saying, you know, of course it's, it's from the best of intentions. Right. And, and I think it's because we, especially, we as helpers, right.

We have a little bit double dose of wanting to help people feel better. But instead of focusing on controlling the other person's emotions, which honestly is a boundary violation. Right. so instead of that, focusing on connection, I think that's like when we, when we go there, we stay on definitely on safe ground.

I I'll tell you a simple story of if we can tolerate another story. No, please. Okay. So a few years ago, One of my nephews. He was three years old and I'm from coastal Georgia. So I was, I was down in Georgia and was visiting family. I was staying with my brother and we had gone over to some relatives of his wife.

So my sister-in-law's grand great-grandmother. And so the little boys, my nephews were three and a year and a half, and they were, they were playing with this ball. They were throwing it back and forth and it went over this little kind of patio fence thing. And so Bryce came running inside and running across the room and ran out.

She was, she lived in an apartment, ran out and the apartment and down the car corridor to go get his ball back and. So he just hear, you know, these footsteps, like, and like little body, like floating on. And then he like goes along in front of the fence and like passed her apartment to now he was in front of the apartment next to her.

And all of a sudden you hear these little dogs, like, and so then all of a sudden he's crying and he's just like tearing back into the apartment, you know, mm-hmm and I thought, oh, like, he, he wasn't expecting to be met with these dogs. And even though they were little, he was little too. Right? Sure. It was pretty overwhelming.

So I met him at the door and picked him up as soon as, you know, he comes to the door and. He was crying and everything. And what naturally came to my mind to say was that must have been really scary because I was thinking about it from, from his perspective, you know? So I was like, that must have been really scary.

You weren't expecting to hear dogs, were you? And he's like, no, you know, and he's, he's crying and he's wiping his eyes and stuff. And so I'm gonna hold you up, appear really high so that we can go back out and get your ball, but you'll be up high. So you'll be. From the dogs. Right. And so we go outside and you know, I'm making up this little story to him and I'm saying, oh, this cause the dogs are not barking.

And it's like, oh, these dogs are saying, Hey, little boy, your balls over here, you know, I'm just being silly. And then, and he's like, oh, that's so nice. You know? So now he's VI his, and, and he, he feels safe though. I'm like, you know, oh, look, they're behind their little fence. And so now he wiggles down. Right?

Cause he, he wants to go get his ball. He knows he's safe. And because the dogs are, are away from him, I can't catch him. So he goes and he gets his ball and, and you know, there's, everybody's, everybody's happy, that kind of thing. But somebody had said to me later when I had, I had written about that story and the book that I had put out back in 2017, somebody said that to like, that was so interesting that you said to him, that must have been really scary.

He said, I, I think the natural thing to say would be, you don't have to be scared. Mm. And I was like really struck by that, cuz I thought, I think back in my experiences I guess that is something that people would've tended to say to me, but, but it just made so much sense to say that must have been really scary because clearly he was scared.

And if I say you don't have to be scared. I think what we tend to think in our minds is like, well, you don't understand, you know, because clearly if I am scared, there's something I'm scared about, you know, that kinda thing. So I didn't want him to feel isolated or him to feel understood. I, I wanted to meet him where he was instead of trying to get him to meet me where I was.

Once he felt like I met him where he was with that must have been really scary. Then I could bring him into, you know, the things, these things that were going was gonna do so that he didn't have to be scared and we could go and face it together. Does that make sense? Yeah. No, I love it. Empathy. That's all about empathy, basical, and then yeah, for sure.

Connected with him. Which helped him overcome his fear, which helped him kind of deal with that dangerous situation that he was facing. That's wow. That, no, that, that's incredible. It's a great illustration of kind of how that works when you truly help someone to process and go through something difficult.

Yeah. And just kinda like take, like looking at taking their perspective first, instead of getting them to take your perspective. Cause I think that we can kind of, we can tend to do that, you know, uh, and again, with the festive intentions, you know totally. Yeah. And I wanna transition into talking about, um, going through your parents' divorce, like when someone goes through their parents' divorce, their parents' separation, or maybe just a really broken marriage, uh, something you said before, how, you know, to, to properly survive trauma, um, means it, we, we need to get taken care of basically.

And so mm-hmm um, it, it had struck me because what we've seen reading the research and hearing all the stories that we've been hearing for years is that so often these young people who come from broken families or not so young. That they aren't taken care of. And again, not not saying parents are like want wanting to damage their kids.

I've never met a parent who wanted to hurt their kids by getting divorced. Never. But I think so often the kids get neglected and that is damaging. They don't have that connection. Like you mentioned, they don't feel that they're taken care of. And so I think maybe that's part of the reason it's so damaging.

So I wanna give you a chance to talk about that. Why, why would you say, uh, from your point of view, your expertise is your parents' divorce or separation, so, so traumatic for so many people. Yeah, I think there's, I think there's so many, so many reasons to that. Like, first of all, I think, cause we're, we're part of mom and part of dad to see that rift between the two of them really feels like a rift within us.

Right? Like even on a, on a very like natural physiological kind of level, you can feel like we're being torn apart. So I think it, it makes a lot of sense just on a really like. Basic like fundamental level. And you know, a lot of times there's even like, I look more like this person. So if you're rejecting this person, what does that say about me?

Maybe I have more features of that person. And if that, you know, he's rejecting this about her, then what does that say about me? And 11 times, I don't think we even necessarily articulate this stuff, but I think it's, you know, I think it ends up playing into the what's, you know, can be going on underneath.

Also, I think one of the things that makes situations so particularly damaging or impacting I would, would be a good word is when. The more helpless we feel in a situation and who, when it comes to something like separation and divorce, broken marriage, the typical, you know, the typical responses in trauma is we say it's fight flight or freeze.

And, and there is no way to fight it, right? Like because we're not even part of the, the breakup really, you know, we're not, we're not the mother, we're not the father. Right. We're not the husband, we're not the wife. So, so they're breaking up from each other and there's no way we can, we can fight that. No way we can, nothing we can do to stop it.

There's no way we can flee it either. Right. There's we can try to avoid and escape kind of from the idea of it or thinking about it, but it doesn't doesn't change the facts of the situation. So I think what most people end up doing is freezing, which is kind of that deer in the headlights kind of mode, where we feel that particular sense of.

Helplessness. There's nothing I can do to fight it. Nothing I can do to flee it. I can't change the situation. And so we, we just kind of brace for impact, you know, kind of, so to speak, if you're thinking about it, like what we would do in a car accident, when there's no way we can swerve to avoid the, you know, the car coming at us or something, things that are handled in that way, they tend to be particularly like leaving a lot of like depressive kind of symptoms.

When, when things are the free state is, as the trauma continues to be experienced, like it's still going on that free state particularly tends to be experienced down the road as depression. So I think, um, I think those are some of, some of the reasons also think particularly cause connection is like, you know, like I said before, what we're wired for and that's kind of the most fundamental connection that we're supposed to have, the way the.

Human family has been designed is there's for a person to come into the world and it needs to be a, a mother and a father and to, to bring this little life in. And so when there's a fraction in that connection, it goes against everything that we're made for, you know? Yeah. So seeing that, like that connection, that, that relationship that's supposed to really teaches about connection when that one, that, that one is like so crucial to the destructiveness.

Absolutely. Um, I also think there's something like, I think there's something to, it's not just like the person, you know, the, the person who's the child in the, um, in the family. It's not just like, they're not get getting taken care of. Sadly. I mean, that would be bad enough, of course, but sadly, a lot of times what I see is they're actually relied upon to take care of the parents or one of the parent and that.

That's kind of backwards, right? That's totally backwards from, from how it's supposed to be. And it's an, it's an awful lot of responsibility and none of the power, there's a story of, um, a boy where he was, uh, just, I think, 13, 14 years old. And, uh, his mom left, his mom just stopped and left, but his dad was just so debilitated by the mom leaving.

And so that child dropped outta school. He started doing everything the mom would do like cooking and cleaning and taking care of everything around the house. Wow. And so he literally, as, as a boy, he stepped into this parent role, not just taking care of the house mm-hmm but also being emotionally there for his dad.

Mm-hmm and we see this all, all the time, Margaret, like in the young people, we were it's yeah. They're filling roles. They were never meant to fill sometime often out of necessity. And, uh, man, it's, it's so sad and it is damaging. It may not. Look like that, you know, right away. But, uh, but down the road, it can be very damaging, especially in your relationship with that parent, which of course we all want good relationships with our parents and it can be really harmful down the road we've learned.

Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. I, I totally agree with that. And it has, I can tell you from, you know, working with adults cuz I, you know, my, my, the people, I treat's a mix of, of kids and adult and. and in working with adults, it has long lasting ramifications. You know, it's not something that once they're outta that situation, it's over.

And I think if you put it in terms of connection, a lot of times, the, the message they've taken away is, is that that's how they have to earn their value. And because they don't feel valued until they step into that role, because they, that they can see like really quickly, like, oh, if I do this, I help dad feel better or I help mom feel better.

And so then they, you know, maybe perhaps like, because of their own pain and depression, whichever parent or parents, aren't really engaging with them, you know, and their. Uh, kind of more kind of withdrawn or, or whatever the case might be. Right. And so mm-hmm but the kid takes away the message. Oh, if I do this, they like me.

If I do this, they appreciate me more if I do this. And so, so it's a real, yeah, it's a real detrimental message for a person to take on that. They have to earn their value, particularly by, by doing something that's like such a roll reversal. Right? No, that makes so much sense. And there's so much to say on that topic alone.

I, I just wanted to mention though that for sure, for, for any parents listening, who may be like freaking out right now, um, there, you, you play such a crucial role in helping your kids handle that the trauma handle that the messy situation, there is some research that we've seen that says basically if that child has a good relationship, a healthy relationship with one or both parents, they're much less likely to experience loneliness, to experience depression, to experience anxiety.

And so parents listening right now, uh, you play a huge role. We often hear how things go wrong. And, and there is a lot of that when people come from a broken family, no doubt. Um, but you can play a crucial role in helping in helping your children heal. So lot, lot more on that than, I guess we could talk about it in this conversation, but would you, um, add anything to kind of, why is divorce.

Separation so unique. Is there anything that makes it different than other types of trauma aside from the things you've already mentioned? No. I think just kind of looking back at, you know, again, to reiterate looking at the, at the family unit and that's like supposed to be our first school of, of connection really.

Right. And it really ends up teaching us how to even connect to ourself and how to connect to God and how to connect to others. And so it it's because it's like that, that primary place where we would get those lessons. Absolutely. And the research we've seen and mark, you've probably seen the same stuff, says that the, the biggest area of our lives that we are impacted by our parents' divorce is our own relationship, specifically our romantic relationships.

And we talk about that a lot in the show. Yeah. But it makes so much sense based on everything you just. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Mark. You didn't just learn this stuff in a book. That's one of the things that I think is so impressive about you, you've been through a lot in your own life years ago, you were on the brink of suicide.

If you're willing to talk about that a little bit, what happened? What's your story? I grew up in a very dysfunctional family. My parents did not divorce or separate, but it was at least physically right. So I, I do think there are people who fall into that category. Right? Absolutely. So there's this, like, there's this incredible disconnect and rift and, and that kind of thing.

So you you're experienced disconnection on day in and day out, but, but without the official divorce or separation. So there was a lot of, lot of dysfunction on pretty much every level. And so ended up running away from home when I was 17, um, came to thankfully came to Franciscan university, right outta high school.

And it was, it was a great place. To come cause it was probably one of the safest places I could have come. And it was, yeah, it, I didn't know I was gonna come here until two weeks before school started when I was a freshman, I just kinda, I needed to figure something out and go somewhere. So I applied and was accepted financial aid, worked through, you know, worked out and I was on a plane heading to Ohio.

And, um, nobody warned me about how cold it is in Ohio. Cause it was not cold in south Georgia but ended up but ended up up here and like really thankfully. So, but that wasn't really the end of the story, you know, that was just kind of the beginning. There was a lot of just kind of trying to sort out what in the, what in the world and, and all, you know, what in the word I had been through and still all the while living out of my own trauma, which just led to more drama and more trauma.

And so it wasn't until I was finally at, uh, by the time I was 33 years old, I had been in counseling for 16 years. I had been. Misdiagnosed bipolar. I had been hospitalized twice on like every medication under the sun and everybody was just kind of stumped what to do with me. And I was really, really under functioning and I knew I couldn't hold down a job because I was so morbidly depressed.

And so I thought, okay, well, school was always easy for me. So I'll, I'll get a master's degree cause that'll help me buy some time to try to figure me out. Cause clearly I was, I was stumping the professionals and um, of the master's programs that Franciscan had at the time master's in counseling program is what interested me for the obvious reason of trying to figure myself out.

Right. Mm-hmm and so, but it, I, so I went into the master's in counseling program, never with the intention of becoming a therapist. Never. That was not my intention. I was just trying to buy time and halfway through the master's in counseling program. I. Really coming apart at the seams and the therapist, I was seeing recommended that I go through the method of treatment that then kind of changed over all of these years into the way I practiced it, but went through it and it was night and day different.

It was intensive outpatient trauma treatment. And I went from, you know, the past, the 18 months prior to going through it, I had been. Imminently suicidal, just like every day and night, all day and night, my thoughts would just kind of always go to, to suicide and, and as sad and as disturbing as it sounds, that was actually kind of, my, my most hopeful thought was suicide because it kind of felt like my parachute, you know, because I had no hope for, for ever feeling anything else, because I had felt that way for, from really from the time I was 17, just so, so, so depressed and so intensely anxious and thought in good conscience.

I can't become a therapist because I don't believe it worked and went down. I went through this method of treatment, the clinic's closed now, but it went through it back then. And it was just day of night difference after intensive treatment. And so I, that kinda, that sold me on it. And it wasn't, it wasn't really the, the end, you know, it was like this silver bullet kind of thing, but it definitely, I, I didn't feel depressed anymore.

Didn't feel suicidal anymore. Didn't feel anxious anymore. And I definitely had the. The tools and the insight I needed to really begin to connect to me and then to connect to, to others, more healthily and to grow in my relationship with, with the Lord was connecting to him. So it was kind of this, it was just like an enormous portion of, of my own journey.

Also, honestly, there was a lot physiological that, that I ended up getting help with from chiropractor nutritionist in the area here, who we both know Dr. Mara, and the reason being that trauma actually takes a toll on your body and stress happens somewhere. Right? And it happens in these, these things we live in, right.

That's where the anxiety takes place when the depression takes place. And it really takes its own its wear and tear honest physiologically. So that was a big component of my healing as well. Wow. Besides my, besides my faith journey. Cause so I kind of had this like emotional, physical, and very and spiritual like aspects of the healing kind of, and I've always.

Really kind of emphasize that with clients, like you really have to go at it body, mind and spirit because that's how we're made. Yeah. You can't compartmentalize. We have to treat the person. No, you really can't. Yeah, for sure. I love that. Wow. What incredible story. And now you're helping other people who, you know, are going through trauma.

Who've been through trauma who are trying to, to process it, deal with it. Uh, tell, tell us a little about the, the therapy that you practiced, the model that you practiced and why, why is it so effective? So I, so, like I said, the model as I went through it, if. Changed. I added it up at one point, probably about 14 or 15 things over the years, trying to make it more, more efficient and more effective.

And mm-hmm and kind of more holistic. And so, so the, as I practice it, I refer to it as NRI, which stands for neuro reformatting and integration. So the neuro part is actually moving, moving. We try where files are stored in the brain. Or if you look at it kinda like reformatting those files, this is the way that they've become encoded instead of being experienced, like they're still going on.

Once we've processed them, they're actually able to be experienced like they're in the past. Which is really that's, that's the most effective part of the whole thing, because then it actually enables the person to be able to feel like a whole person instead of feeling like, okay, well there's part of me, that's carrying these terrible things I went through when I was four.

And these things that I went through when I was 12 and these things that I would turn on 15, you know, whatever ages like these particularly traumatic events happened. Because they continue to be experienced. Like they're still going on. They can really kind of leave us feeling diced up into all these different kind of ages that we were when the things happened.

But once the events are experienced, like they're in the past, then there's able to be like integration within the person. So we feel whole, instead of that sense of, of kind of this brokenness, you know, and, and I think, I think a lot of people who've been, been through trauma can kind of relate to that, you know, kind of feeling.

Like they're a little kid in an adult body and being expected to engage with an adult world, you know, and they're expected to act like adults and they, they don't even feel like an adult, even though they're in their mid thirties, you know, or, or mid twenties, you know, or whatever the case might be.

That's why it's so effective is because, and that's also why it can be done in intensive format. So in a week you can get the, all of these things addressed. You don't need a week or two weeks in between hourly sessions to kind of mull over what was talked about in the last session. And that kind of thing.

I, I always say, if it's easier for you to look at the kind of treatment I do as physical therapy for the brings, then that really kind of makes sense. Right? So, because I'll give you like a good example of like how physiological this is, this is kinda, this is kinda crazy. But during those two weeks that I went through, um, through trauma treatment, my hair turned to tiny little curls.

And stayed like that for the next year and a half. And wow. Um, which is one of the things that kept, you know, the, the body, mind spirit kind of approach, like literally in my face, right? Like anytime I look in the mirror, it was literally in my face and I was talking to my doctor about it and saying like, isn't that crazy?

And he said, well, it makes sense because when you're moving, where things are stored in the brain, it shifts up hormones. And a lot of times, you know, hormones have to do with will effect if a person's hair is curly or straight, like, example, for example, like when women get pregnant or have babies, you know, a lot of times their hair, if they have curl, they'll lose curl, or, um, if they don't have curly hair, they might get curly hair.

So yes, it's kinda it's that biological, you know, kind of shift that makes it so effective. It's, it's not, it's not just trying to get the person to think about it in a think about whatever the traumatic events were in a different light for like a short period of time that then they wouldn't be able to sustain.

You're actually kind of like. Changing how it's stored in the brain. Wow, incredible. It's like you're doing, you're reorganizing their brain, so to speak. Yeah. Which causes the, you know, the symptoms they talked about before it causes those things to go away, you know? So the limbic system's able to calm down.

So the neocortex is able to do, um, in the prefrontal cortex, more of what it's meant to do. So this kind of stuff we call executive functioning. So prioritizing and being organized and, and problem solving. You know, if I do this, wait, that's gonna happen. So I wanna make this choice instead, you know, making better choices, the person's able to from a calmer place and approach things.

More peace and clarity. Wow. Incredible. And Margaret, I wanted to ask you, so when someone comes to work with you, they're, you know, coming to your, um, clinic for a week, uh, what does that week look like? What's the agenda? Like what sort of, uh, exercises do they go through? Like, could you demystify that a little bit?

Like what process do you follow in leading people through this therapy? Sure. So the first part, even before they come to know if they're appropriate for this method of treatment is kind of, uh, a set amount of form and call the history and goals, questionnaire. And so I, I get their history, so I know if they're appropriate for treatment and, and to know if the goals.

That they're looking to attain. If, you know, if you, if they make sense given this treatment, if this is a good fit for that. And then if it is when they come for that week, they stay in the local area. It's outpatient treatment. So they just come for sessions from in the morning and in the, and or in the afternoon, depending on what their schedule is, what they're set up with, what kind of their need is.

And then on Monday kind of do an intake that gives us a lot bigger picture of, um, kind of that context of their life, because we've gotten the real specific information on that history and goals, questionnaire. And then I, I like to educate people on. Trauma, a lot of the, kind of the stuff we're talking about and the effects on the brain and the reason being that the more they can understand how the things they've been through are affecting them.

I think a lot of times it takes away some of the shame and the self blame and that kind of stuff. And it, it actually, a lot of times people will go, oh, well, if this is what you're saying, that maybe I should tell you this. And they'll start sharing with me. Things that, that very much would kind of fall into the trauma category also, and really important for me to know.

So I always look at. Like whoever the person is I'm working with. We are the treatment team for the week because I might be the expert on trauma, but they're the expert on them. So kinda look at getting them caught up to my information and me caught up to them so that we can kind of go at things together.

And then throughout the week, we kind of take things through the neurore reformatting and integration process of this reformatting, these, you know, these memory files, which is actually done through a directed use of art therapy. So there's a lot of art therapy and if there're really little kids play therapy that goes into it, um, a lot of different parts and pieces of that.

And then kind of everything through one of the main things, that's different about how. Practicing these days, that's so different than anything I've done before is it's all through the perspective of connection, because I really want people to finish, not just, um, you know, finish the week up, not just available for connection, but understanding what healthy connection looks like, and then what the steps are they need to take in order to grow and deeper connection to themselves, you know, or others or the Lord, if they're Christian.

So that kind of has a lot to do with, with wrap up and kind of helping them be in a lot better spot for, for being vaed going forward. Because for myself, like that was not how treatment was when I went through it. So sadly I went through treatment, it was enormously helpful, but then I got out just like, okay, ready for connection, but had no idea that that was kind of part of all, what all of this stuff getting cleared up outta my life was kind of positioning me for and didn't have any idea how to navigate healthy connection.

Cause I hadn't experienced that. Wow. So that's become kind of really. What I'd say is like profoundly different about how I practice these days. Incredible. No, it, it sounds super effective. And I know you've helped a lot of people. What are some of the transformations that you've seen? Gosh, there's, there's so many stories I wanna tell you about this, which actually this is not a commercial break, but there a lot of the book that I wrote serious, this is true.

A lot of the book that I wrote, like kind of goes through some of those because there they were such learning experiences. For me. Right. I was like shocked. As I continued to see, like these dramatic changes, whether they be like physically or emotionally or, or behaviorally, a lot of times, you know, with kids, you'll see like major behavior changes.

So one of the physical ones that comes to mind readily was working with somebody. I'll tell you this one. So, so this was a young adult I was working with and this person had all of these physiological symptoms. And so with colorblind, they could feel, you know, sense of TA or of touch, but they said everything, they felt felt like they had gloves on.

And, um, they had a really dull sense of smell. And so a really dull sense of taste. They were getting migraines like all the time. They had been hospitalized for a migraine once for two months, just, just crazy. I can't even imagine my goodness. They had had a really hard time learning to read and also with a really hard time learning math when they were little.

And so they came for treatment. Oh, this person also, their, their coloring looked really bad, like really pale sickly and very, it was a, it was a, a guy and he was very much like underweight kind of sickly looking and all of those symptoms through the week of treatment, all of those symptoms went away. All of those color, like everything I just named all the symptoms went away, started being able to sound words out, started being able to, to you went home, asked his mom what's the deal with fractions.

And she sat down. She said, I sat down and like explained fractions to him, like for the hundredth time. And he's been sitting around doing math for fun for the last three days. Wow. That's the biggest transformation. Sorry, doing master reports. I think that's diagnosable, but that's OK. um, yeah. And then like in the six months after treatment, he grew three inches and put on 40 pounds that he very much needed to put on cuz he was just like so sickly and, and stopped getting migraines.

So, um, yeah, so, so that's just like, it, it, so cause of that, like be because of like having all those symptoms before growing up, he just saw himself kind of like as a person who couldn't do things like, right. Like, like not capable. And so he, he hadn't tried a lot of things, even though he was 20 or 21 years old, he didn't have his driver's license.

Didn't have a job, was living with his parents. Hadn't gone to college. He he'd actually never stayed overnight at their house by himself before. I mean, there was just a lot of things cause he felt really incapable, you know, and all of those things changed. Right. So he ended up kind of. Con like constantly like trying more things and doing more things and then having success, doing those things.

And then it really shifted how he saw himself. And so, so as you, you kind of see that a lot of times, whatever the person's, you know, whatever the symptoms are that you see change up, you see. That it, it kind of becomes evident that a lot of times before treatment people see their symptoms as who they are instead of how they're doing.

And after treatment, like once the symptoms are gone and then the person's able to get, oh, that's just how I was doing. That's not who I, who I am or who I was. Right. And so then they engage with the world and others, like in a lot different way, which is a lot greater degree of freedom. Incredible. Wow, what a sword and I'm sure you have so many more in the book guys.

Uh . There's there's so many more I can hear you I'm sure. No, I'm sure. So the book that Margaret mentioned, everyone, uh, it's more than words, the freedom to thrive after trauma, you could pick that up on Amazon. I'll tell you, uh, at the end, how you can, can buy that if, if you'd like, but wow. One incredible story.

And uh, maybe one day we'll have you back just to tell stories of transformation. That's incredible. if I can tell you, I'll tell you those two. There's a, um, please, there's a manuscript. I just finished. I did it over, wrote it over when the pandemic lockdown happened. Cuz I thought I would lose my mind if I was locked in here by myself.

and so I, I started writing a book. Connection. And so it's all about connection to God's self and others, and just like putting the finishing passes on that. So that should be coming out in the next month or so hopefully incredible. Uh, we'll make sure to link that in the show notes when that does come out.

So man, thank you for, for mentioning that. I, I had no idea that you were working on another book. Gotta do something to stay outta trouble. Joey, there you go. mark. I just wanna in closing up the show, I just wanna ask you, uh, people, you know, are hearing all this and they're thinking, man, this sounds so good.

Uh, you know, I need to heal. I want to heal, uh, but maybe I can't start the week long therapy right now. What's one thing that they can do right now from home in order to, to start that healing process. You know, this might sound like super simplistic, but I, I think it's like profoundly important and I think everybody could stand to grow in this and, and that would just be being compassionate to ourselves to themself.

Cause I think that's, that's like so key, like the more compassionate we are to ourself, whether that means respecting our own boundaries and not attributing our value to, to our performance or our looks or, you know, whatever, whatever kind of external factor, not beating ourselves up. Um, not putting ourselves down, that kind of thing.

I think that's really kind of that begins that shift. I think because we, we talk to ourselves far more than we spend time talking to anybody else in that constant kind of commentary we can have running in our head. So making that conscious effort to begin practicing compassion to ourselves really kind of go, can go a long way to the integration of the person when, whenever they are able to end up getting help from somebody on the outside.

But it really, um, stands in stark contrast. A lot of times to the messages that we've been sent in traumatic experiences. So I say self-compassion is, is, is huge. Absolutely. No, I I've seen that be, um, really fruit in my own life and then the lives of the people and swords audience that, that we've worked with, cuz yeah man, if we were to like write out or listen to the way that we talk to ourselves, we, a lot of us would just be complete jerk.

Because we're just so unkind and so mean to ourselves. So I think, uh, it it's great advice. And one of the things that a lot of people, uh, benefit from hearing is that it's okay not to be okay. It's okay to absolutely to go through something difficult. And, uh, just like you would treat another person who is going through a really hard time.

You need to treat yourself the same. And so not. I love that advice, Margaret, and I just wanna give you a chance to what encouragement, what advice would you give to someone who, who really is in a tough spot? Who, who feels broken, who feels hopeless, who maybe feels stuck, especially because of the messiness in their family.

Like you mentioned, maybe their parents are still together, but things are really dysfunctional or maybe their parents just separate, or their parents have been divorced for a. What advice and encouragement would you, would you give to them? Yeah, well, I like first and foremost, I would say there's always hope.

There's always hope. And, and I, and I would say, you know, to look at your symptoms as how you're doing, not who you are, because they're really not. And, and you know, it, it's all passing. Like it's all passing it's and yet when we're in the middle of it, it can feel like we're gonna feel like that way forever, but that's really not the truth.

So I say there's, there's always hope and you're not the sum total of your symptoms. Beautiful. And how can people learn more about you? How could they follow you? Get your books, learn about your practice. Yeah. Yes, they can. Um, they can follow me on my, or come to my website@culture-of-connection.com and the book is available on Amazon.

So they can either put in my name Margaret Vasquez, or they can put in more than words, the freedom to thrive after trauma. If they come to my website, culture of connection.com, they can sign up to receive emails and say, they'll get updated when the next book is out. And that kind of thing. And blog posts and stuff.

Excellent. And guys will make sure to throw that all in the show notes to make it easy for you, Margaret, thank you so much for your time for expertise and for just your heart, uh, you know, your willingness to, to help people and the heart you have for, for them. So really appreciate you taking time to, to do this with us.

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Joey. And just wanna say, I like God bless you and your ministry just really appreciate what you do.

There's so much to say after an episode like that, so many takeaways, but just a few one, I would say don't minimize the negative experiences that you've been through in life. Like Margaret said, a lot of times people say couldn't have been worse and we kinda just write things off as normal or thinking, well, it could have been worse.

A lot of other people go through a lot of worse things in their lives and sure. Maybe it could have been worse, but the fact that it shouldn't have been that. The fact that it should have been different is enough to be hurt by it. And so we really can't minimize those negative experiences in our lives.

We really owe it to ourselves to, to reflect on them, to think about how we've been damaged and then to make an effort to heal. Another excellent point that Margaret made was it really matters how helpless we felt during those negative experiences to put it. In other words, the more helpless you feel during a painful experience, the more impactful it is on you.

And so that's a great question to really reflect on is how helpless did I feel during these bad things that have happened in my life. And then you can kind of draw a line between those bad things that happened, how helpless you felt and the things maybe you struggle with today and how it has affected you over the years.

So something really good to reflect on today, or at some point, this. In for anyone listening, who's maybe trying to help a friend who's going through something tough right now, or just someone you care about someone you lead. Perhaps it's so important that we meet people where they are. I love the story that Margaret told about her little nephew with the dogs and how she kind of handled that whole thing.

And what she said was, yeah, we have to meet people where they are. We need to be empathetic. We need to put ourselves in their shoes, not telling them how to feel or trying to cheer them up, but really going to them in the low place that they're at right now. And so you can say things. That must have been really difficult, or that must be scary, like Margaret said.

And I've found that when you take that approach with helping people, it usually goes so much further. And on the receiving end, I've been on the receiving end as well. It's so much better when someone comes to you with that attitude than if they come to you with the attitude of like, I'm gonna try to fix you, or you just need to get over there.

So you just need to feel better. There's so much more that we can say, but if you wanna pick up Margaret's book more than words is the title. You can buy that on Amazon or wherever you buy books. Uh, we'll throw a link in the show notes. If you wanna buy the book that way you can just click on that and you can buy the book.

We'll also add her new book that's coming out in the show notes once that is released, and those show notes can be found@restoredministry.com slash 37. Again, that's restored ministry.com. Ministries is to singular slash 37 3 7. Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful. Please subscribe and share this episode with someone that you know, who could use it.

Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.