#107: Forgiving Someone Who’s Hurt You | John O’Brien
When trauma occurs, it causes you to ask big questions. That’s where my guest found himself after being brutally attacked, almost to the point of death, by people he was trying to help.
In this episode, you’ll hear the story of the attack, plus he answers:
Has forgiveness been difficult for you?
Why forgive? What are the benefits? What happens if we don’t forgive?
How do you forgive someone who has hurt you?
Links & Resources
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John O’Brein
john@aquinasforum.org
#058: Forgiveness: The Secret to Healing and Freedom | Fr. John Burns
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TRANSCRIPT
Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!
When trauma happens, whether it's someone dying or your family falling apart or any other type, it causes you to ask big questions. And that's where my guest found himself after being brutally attacked almost to the point of death by people that he was trying to help. In this episode, you'll hear him share that story of the attack.
Plus he answers questions like, how has the attack affected you over the years? Has forgiveness been difficult for you? Why forgive? What are the benefits? What happens if we don't forgive? And how do you forgive someone who has hurt you? Intense story, but good content. Keep listening.
Welcome to the Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parent's divorce, separation, or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. This is episode 107. We're thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast so helpful and even healing.
We've heard lots of feedback. One listener said, amazing five stars been looking for a podcast like this, finally found one that has helped me more. Then you'll ever know. Thank you. Another said, Surprisingly helpful, not what I expected. Five stars. They went on to say, I've always said that I'm okay. That what happened couldn't have changed who I was.
Of course it changed me. I still run away from many topics related to divorce, but listening to this podcast isn't like hearing from a bunch of psychologists tell me all the ways I'm really okay. It's much more helpful to hear that this is not okay, and it will never be okay. Lots more reviews like that that we don't have time to share right now, but we will in the future.
Again, we're so happy to hear that it's been so helpful. We do it for you. If you've ever had an idea, guest, topic, or any other advice to make this podcast better, we'd love to hear from you. To offer your advice, you can just take our podcast survey. On it, we ask questions like, how would you rate the podcast?
Of the options listed, why do you listen? Is the podcast length too long, too short, or just right? Should we add video? Should we change the format of the show? And other questions that'll guide you in giving your advice, which we really value. It does take five to ten minutes to complete it. But if you've benefited from this podcast, think of it as a way to help us in return.
It'll also come back to benefit you in two ways. One, it'll make the show even better for you. And two, if you fill it out by November 15th, you'll be entered to win a hundred dollar Amazon gift card. And so to offer your advice, it's really easy. Just go to restoredministry. com. Again, restored ministry, ministry is singular dot com slash survey.
Okay. Just answer the questions there, submit the form again, go to restored ministry.
My guest today is John O'Brien. John is the founder and executive director of the Aquinas Forum, a nonprofit organization based in Denver, Colorado, for faith formation and Catholic studies. He holds a bachelor's degree and master's degree in theology from Franciscan University of Steubenville and has taught faith formation to every age level.
Beginning as a high school theology and humanities teacher, he later became the director of faith formation for a flourishing parish in Denver, Colorado. During his tenure as a parish director of formation, part of his role included directing over 240 young adults in 25 small groups. He also started a monthly candlelight mass that continues nine years later and was a starting point for over 50 marriages, if you can believe that.
Uh, to help people grow in faith and develop a Catholic vision of life is the hallmark of all of his work. So obviously in this episode we talk about God, we talk about faith. If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening for a while knows that this podcast is not a strictly religious show.
And so wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge for you is this. Just listen with an open mind. Even if you skip or take out the God part, you're still going to benefit from this episode. With that, here's my conversation with John.
John, welcome to the show. So good to have you, man. Great to be here, Joey. I've been looking forward to this and let's dive right in. So, years ago you went through a very traumatic event. Yep. And I, I don't want to tell the story. I want you to tell the story. What happened there? Well, there's a lot to be said, but I just completed graduate school and got the master's in theology and wanted to begin a career in teaching at some point, but For the, for the present time.
I wanted to, uh, experience this opportunity that was presented to me. A few of my college friends were going out to a ranch in northwest Wyoming. It sounded really cool. I'd been, you know, just in the classroom forever. I was age 24. Lots of paper, lots of pens, computers, like, oh man, you spent some time in the west.
That sounds good. Mm-hmm. , the thing is, it was delinquent youth ranch and so that, that was a bit of a twist, but that sounded cool too 'cause I just wanted to go and help be a counselor. You know, just be with the kids, take care of them. Yeah, that's heroic. That's well, you know, it felt right, felt right for the time and kind of grow up experiencing maturity.
And when I got out there, though, I'm going to have to kind of keep this simple, I think, for the sake of our timing for the podcast, but you'll get the important elements. I'd only been there for two weeks. Again, it was a delinquent youth ranch. So the kids that were there were used to kind of relatively small crime.
Um, But, but some bigger, some, uh, some violence, some just kind of overdrinking, problematic child, terrible relationship with the parents. So the parents at some point, because the children are out of control, they'd have to, uh, force them to pack up and go to the ranch. Wow. Okay. So the kids didn't want to be there and one night, just two weeks into the, to my time at the ranch, they caught wind.
I was going to be the only counselor there that night. There were nine boys, middle teens, and the manager approved it. I didn't know what was going on cause I'd only been there for two weeks, but the manager approved it. I was the only guy there. Treat everything as a normal day. Uh, say a rosary before the campfire about 10 PM, put them down to sleep in their tent, all under the Wyoming high desert.
Wow. Beautiful area. So I put him in the tent, I get him in my sleeping bag, bed roll, not in the tent, just like under the stars, see the Milky Way, it's gorgeous, I was in a great mood, like I was looking forward to being out there for a year. One week later I wake up in the hospital, the intensive care unit.
Billings, Montana, and what happened was they waited until I fell asleep about 10 PM and then about 1130 They said we're gonna go through with the with with what we had planned So they had three options. The first one was to tie me up with a rope and their object is very simple I had a duffel bag next to me.
The truck keys were in the bag. So but I was in I was in the way So they're like, well, let's think of a way to get to take care of. Mr. Obi is what they called me Rob Ryan. And they said, well, let's think of a way we can take care of Mr. Obi and then take the keys of the truck and go. Wow. First option was tying me up with a rope, but they said, well, he's, he's, he's bigger than us.
And so if, if we get into trouble, that's not going to be good. Yeah. You're, you're for everyone who doesn't know what John looks like. He's a tall, strong dude. So yeah. Can't think of a joke. So I have to just kind of a lame guy But and so that was the first option just tie me up. They said that that there could be problems The second option was they could stab me, but they said well, that's too violent Then the third option they said and I had argued this is just as violent but take garden shovels try to knock me out Wow, so that's what they did They snuck out of the truck, or excuse me, they snuck out of the tent about 1130.
They picked up garden shovels that were nearby, um, we were doing some work earlier in the afternoon. We used the shovels for it. They pick up the shovels, they count to three, they've surrounded me, I'm asleep. And they pound my head and for eight to 10 hits, because there were five other boys right there during the, this whole scene, we have witness testimony, like minute to minute, you know?
And so one of the boys said, I think I heard eight to 10 hits. He told the detective and it sounded like, uh, it sounded like aluminum, an aluminum bat hitting rocks. And so that was me. Did you wake up through that? I did wake up, but I don't have any memory of it, so I didn't lose any consciousness during this experience, but I was knocked into shock, so I don't remember it.
Yeah. Thank God. Yeah. Seriously. Wow. So anyways, I'm on the sleeping bag, uh, kind of left for dead. One of the boys, uh, goes back to the other boys that were in the tent and said, you know, get out of here. Let's go hop in the truck. And they're all scared for the life, of course. So they do it. One boy not involved in the assault puts on his cowboy boots.
And runs like hell to the staff house. He saved my life. Wow. If it wasn't for him, if he would have thought more about his own safety than me, I would be in the great beyond. Wow. As you call it, Joey. The great beyond. So he runs, he gets help, but before they take off, this, this episode really haunted me in the first few years.
I was struggling with things. Um, he comes back from the truck just to kind of make sure, I don't know, I'm, uh, not dangerous for their plot. And I'm kind of sitting up in my sleeping bag. Yeah, bloodied and just just a wreck because the the assault immediately caused a skull fracture hand fracture a Subdural hematoma or a blood clot started forming on the brain and so I was out of it Well, he kneels down because I'm sitting on my bedroll just kind of dazed The other boy said and he he bends down kind of looks at my face looks my eyes And then takes a step back and just kicks me.
Bad scene. It's interesting. I've never gotten emotional about that scene. I have a little bit of a PhD, Joey, in disassociation. Fair enough. So, so that happens. And of course I'm, I'm out. They hop in the truck, they take off. They're caught later that night, right? By the Wyoming highway patrol. I'll talk very, very soon here about kind of their, what happened to them, but.
So I'm in the sleeping bag, about a half an hour later, uh, staff comes and gets help, uh, uh, rather. A half an hour later, staff comes, loads me up in a truck because they said the ambulance was not going to know where it is. Probably true. They take me by ambulance to a huge road in front of the ranch. An ambulance comes.
Then I'm airlifted to Billings, Montana. They call my mom. I'm airlifted to Billings, Montana, where there was a neurosurgeon in charge and just trying to gauge how I'm going to do. He calls my mom and dad and, uh, you know, they say, of course, talk to whatever you need to do. When he operates, he takes a three by three inch piece of skull out.
He puts it in the freezer to where it was going to be left for five months just to keep it safe as my, as my brain, right? Wow. As my brain swells down and as my brain tries to heal. And so they put me under a medical coma. I wake up five days later. Definitely brain injury. If, if for anyone who's experienced brain injury, they know, well, there's all sorts of stuff that can happen.
But one of the things is. You're, you really kind of start over at a young age. So just, I don't know if you're going to want to call it. Lack of focus, just, just, you're super, super young and on medicine. And so it was a time as a ramp up. I recovered for one year. I went home after two weeks and not in the hospital.
Wow. Um, I go home, started speech therapy, started physical therapy, had to walk on, uh, you know, the treadmills and take care of everything. And I was brain injured. So there's a little bit like. You're drunk. And so I'd say all sorts of inappropriate things, acute nurses and such, hopefully made him at least laugh.
And so recovered for a year and that, that was the physical part. And then the psychological part was much longer, but that's the basics. Uh, the boys were, they went to jail for a couple of years and uh, you know, got out and I know some of, some of them have had trouble, uh, who, you know, participate in the assault.
Those four boys, some of them continue to have trouble with the law. Uh, I'm hoping. A couple others are doing better. That's so good of you to say that. I know that must have taken a while for you to just want the best for them or maybe not. Maybe you're more heroic and virtuous than I am, but my goodness, man, that is, uh, that is intense.
Yeah. So many questions. Uh, I guess kind of fast forwarding a little bit more to what were the effects that followed you through that? You said there were a lot of psychological, I know the physical and sure mental and all that stuff. So just if you would outline it for us, how that affected you in the years that followed.
Yeah, well, you could think of it just as a, this is a way you should talk about it just as a tornado of problems because you had two things going on. You had, uh, the trauma, yes, right. How crazy that story was and how difficult and kind of the mystery of good and evil, which is very often accompanies trauma and that was a difficult thing.
But then on the other hand, I had the, the neuro. Psychological effects, or perhaps for the podcast, I should say, I had the physiological effects of the brain injury, which were very difficult. You're concretely irritability, sleep conditions, depression, kind of a OCD, kind of an obsessive mind about all sorts of things.
It felt like kind of my poor brain, if you will, is just like on fire. Whereas before it just kind of felt more healthy functioning and active, right? But now it's on fire. So any little thing, and for people who have experienced this, they know exactly what I'm talking about. So I had that. And then let's just throw in some disassociation depersonalization where you literally feel, it's kind of like you feel dizzy, but you're living in your daily life, but you, you feel like you're not real.
Or you feel like life's not real or you feel like every day is episodic. So I, I experienced about 10 years, my friend, just to, just to mention this in particular, I experienced 10, 10 years at least of, uh, cause it's been 18 years now experienced 18 years of deep, strong depersonalization. Of the gosh, I know I'm real, but it kind of doesn't even feel like that or the outside world.
And it kind of feels like you're like a, but 10, 000 miles above your head. It's very odd. Like an out of body experience. That's right. Wow. Okay. Yeah.
And that's just to mention the physiological. That's not the psychological, uh, well specifically that's not a whole lot of the psychological of trauma. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Forgiveness. Hope. Meaning all those things 100 percent and I know we're gonna hone in on that because there's so many ways we could take this conversation, but Oh on the OCD bet.
Yeah, that is such a Understated problem that a lot of people deal with I know I've went through my bouts of dealing with it and no people Who, uh, who deal with it. It's so debilitating. So that alone is enough. But one of the things that strikes me is your, from your story is that there's just so much, like you said, a tornado or an avalanche is another way to say it.
It's just like, it's just over overwhelming. So it's just amazing that you're standing here today. Like there's so many people I think would be tempted to just give up. Mm-hmm. . And so it's, it's beautiful that you're here and you've pushed through all that and yeah. You've become like an inspiration for so many people too.
So I wanna shift to forgiveness. Yes. Everyone listening here, you know, has been hurt in some way, and they might see some value in forgiveness. They might wanna forgive, but they struggle. They struggle to forgive for any number of reasons. Has forgiveness been difficult for you? Uh, yes and no. I think yes, in the sense that, you know, I, I knew Joey when I went out there for, to be a counselor at the ranch.
I knew they were. Delinquent youth, they, they were in a bad place in life and likely they were in a bad place of life because of decisions that at least to some degree were based on unjust things that happened to them to both hand, right? All of this is contextualized by both hand. If you're looking for an extreme or just a simple answer in any of this, uh, perhaps, you know, well, I don't want to talk to you.
Because reality, one famous Jesuit said, reality is like a strong red wine. It's not for children. There's a lot to it. So, it's nuanced. It's not the black and white that is so often made out to be, especially in like our media. Um, or anywhere in the world really. It's like, it's not, it's colorful. It's like detailed.
It's nuanced. So yeah, I appreciate you saying that. Absolutely. And so the forgiveness of the boys, believe it or not, was much easier than other aspects of forgiveness because I knew, you know, I knew they're in a bad place. I didn't know they were going to do that of course, but they simply wanted to be free.
They were used to a drug problem. Um, I think two of them, it came out, we're, we're pining for drugs at the time and In, in the mystery of what can only be called evil. This is what happens that when, you know, there's something in between me and my addictive, uh, object or whatever that might be. It's like, it's not personal, bro.
I have to take you out cause I need this. The object of my addiction, uh, the object of my vice, whatever that might be. And so I was just taken out. And so I did pray, but, and I think there's perhaps a grace in this, but I, um, I did, I did forgive them, completely forgive them. And I do still. The issue of forgiveness that I had, actually, I had more of an issue when it comes to forgiveness with people who were deeply faith based, like I was going out there Catholic.
And yet after this assault, especially people associated with the ranch who knew this could mean bad stuff legally, it's like they kind of took off their faith hat and put on their I want to protect my money hat and you talk about getting fired up for being an anger and resentment, forgiveness. Really struggled with big time and, and that, that took years that took years because I, I didn't know what to do with that here.
I was suffering so much, honestly, because of the brain injury and then the trauma and you know, I was a mess and yet I did start full time work less than a year after full time campus minister, full time teacher, prep school out in Southern California and for a brain injury victim like that to start full time work less than a year after.
And it was difficult when I thought about how the people at the ranch associated with the ranch responded to my situation, protecting their money more than Being there for me supporting me even even kind of as a person that was difficult I understand again both and I understand you're gonna have to protect your place or your your your job Legally, but also to support a person who's gone through something very difficult.
I think is important They didn't so that took a while. I'm glad to say that has been reconciled to but that that took a while Yeah, I bet and it makes sense It sounds like the kids would be even easier to forgive because you kind of had that expectation of them being rough around the edges and struggling in a lot of ways, coming from really rough backgrounds, having that dependence on substances and stuff like that.
Whereas with the, you know, people who are leading you or in management, whatever, you had somewhat of an expectation of like safety and caring for you. So it makes sense why that would be the case. I had expectations of a perhaps appropriate response from that situation and In my opinion, the way I received it, I was like, what the hell is going on here?
Interestingly, the person I struggled with most after that assault, and I have no problem sharing this, is God himself. You know, when he almost died, it was an 80 percent mortality rate. In today's day and age, people don't often in the, in the United States of America, in these days, they, they don't often experience physical pain as a result of being on mission.
I did. And so I couldn't relate to Jesuits or missionaries to the new world with the, with the native Americans who did not understand why they were there and they experienced martyrdom. Some of them, uh, as well as the old Jesuits in different countries. in Europe and in Asia. I couldn't relate to those guys.
I know they died because of their faith, but I was in a different situation. I was helping out on a ranch a yes, because of my faith. I wanted to help the boys, but also because I was in the U. S. And that doesn't happen. So I had a little conversation with God. One time I said, I'm going to have to know all of these things are real, what I believe in beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Right now I'm struggling so bad that I'm wondering, how can you let this happen? How can you let this happen? I had a master's in theology, so I kind of knew the theological answers, at least to a degree, but it was kind of the personal existential things of this is just not making sense. And also the witness of some of these people, the Catholics.
And because of my understanding of how they had responded to the situation, I was, I was pissed and I was thinking, well, this doesn't feel real. If they believe in what they believe, how are they responding this way? And it was more than just a couple of people. And so I said to God very directly, what's going on?
I'm going to have to search. I was reading in a journal just the other day written that same year of recovery. I said to God, this is dangerous because you're putting them in the dock. This time I was, I said, I will not believe if there is a very, doubt that started a long journey of how to deal with this.
And, and God, I remember showing my high schoolers in class for theology that scene out of Forrest Gump where Lieutenant Dan is up, you know, up on high in the ship and Forrest Gump is worried about him cause there's a huge storm. But Lieutenant Dan had some things to say to God. He said, you can't hurt me.
Something to the effect of you can't hurt me. What I do remember is you son of a. And I think that prayer looking back was just fine. I think that's a good prayer. In fact, and I shared with my high school students sometimes in life, that's the prayer you should pray if you really want to know God and his will.
It's certain times that's a prayer because it's so real. It's so like, this is what I'm going through and not meant to be like, you know, if you're a person of faith, like disrespectful to God, it's more like, Hey, I'm struggling here. Like this is what I'm actually going through. I could put on a mask and pretend I'm not.
That's right. It's a lot of people do. I can be like super pious and everything on the exterior looks good. But interiorly, I'm just like so broken and struggling. That's exactly right. And I had to hold two principles. I had to hold the principle of fake it until you make it. To a degree, that's like the most practical advice we can hear in life.
And that is not being fake. That is putting one foot in front of the other to live a relatively productive life in the midst of going through difficulty. And then the other thing is holding this tension of God and daily life. By no means a simple thing, especially with the psychological struggles I was having, cause it took about five years after that assault just to simmer down that brain to, to, I would call still a, a high octane level, but it didn't feel as much like it was on fire.
And everyone who has had a brain injury can relate to this. Or if you've been the family member of a brain injured person. Yeah, no, that makes so much sense. Yeah. I think of like Navy SEALs who have TBI or like go through the traumatic brain injury, like that stuff. It's like, it's real. It's man, it's a whole world that I don't understand fully, but through your experience, it's um, super instructive and wow, that's a, it's a heavy cross.
And one thought on that is there were many years, right? Cause this is a many year journey recovery. It will be a, just a journey of one of a difficult thing I experienced in my life for the rest of my life. But there were many years of acute years of difficulty. Many times I kind of wish that I could have at least been part of a kind of banner.
Brothers, uh, seals certainly can have made it as a seal. Me neither, uh, but Air Force. I could have done Air Force , uh, or a different branch because at least then I would've had some kind of fellowship with people who had gone through it, or professionals who were there for like this huge group. I just felt very alone.
Because, you know, I did solicit help for the brain in psychology and they were helpful, but I was still walking that path alone. Wow. That was hard. Yeah. That's so isolating and so hopeless at times, honestly. Yes. So tempted to despair. I'm sure I've been there. Oh yeah. About 5 PM every day after my first year of teaching, I'd think, okay, this is a suboptimal situation recovering from this injury.
So experiencing effects in this job is a lot to deal with. So, brother in law. Where's the scotch? Yeah. I hear you. And I'm living with them. Yeah. Yeah. It um, it makes sense that we cope with pain in the ways that we do, even if they're not healthy. Like it's not something we want to continue doing, but I totally like, I get why people do that.
I get why I've done that struggle with vices in the past where it's like, yep, they, they serve a purpose. They're not good for us, but they serve a purpose and hopefully we can break free and find a healthier alternative. But uh, but yeah, I totally get why. Why we go down that path. That's right. And I like how you said that, that it makes sense.
And I would say actually it's natural as a Thomas Aquinas man, uh, started a nonprofit called the Aquinas Forum. I'm, I'm obsessed with Thomas Aquinas because more than anyone, a Dominican friar from the 1200s. Help my how my life get into that later if you want, but yeah, he's all about faith and reason and he's gonna say that if someone is deeply struggling, they are consciously aware that they want to feel healthier, right?
But then the question becomes what good am I seeking for that health? And he makes a distinction between real and apparent goods. So in that situation, uh, a scotch, uh, hanging out with my brother in law, a scotch, it's effects on the brain. It tastes good. It calms you down. Uh, good times of the brother in law.
That seems like a great good. And perhaps one day it is. That's awesome. The meaning of, of alcohol Aquinas says is festivity. So that's good. That's a purpose. That's good. Fine. But as it relates to a brain injury, it's not a true good. It's not a real good at all. It's going to be an apparent good. Wow. And that's kind of the drama of the moral life is, am I choosing real goods or apparent goods?
And it took me a while to get back on the train of real goods. Rather than just kind of quick fixes are going to make me feel better. But for people who are going through addiction or battling vices, it's a healthy psychological principle. I believe to realize there's a reason you're doing this loneliness, brain injury, hurt.
depression, uh, stress from job, whatever the vice is, it's, it's almost always going to be an apparent good to help you. And so the realization is you're, you're not weird for wanting health and trying to find something or, or experiencing something that does help you makes you think it's helping. But the reality of it is we want to be moving more towards those real goods.
Yeah, and things that are going to help in the long run, not just in the short term, not be like a quick fix. And yeah, I know for me as a teenager, it was pornography. That was my drug of choice. And, uh, it did, it helped me in the moment. It almost sounds scandalous to say that, but it's true. It served a purpose, but it was making me miserable.
And so I knew I needed to get that out of my life and I did thankfully, but yeah, I recognize now looking back, it's like, yeah, it did. It served a purpose and I wish I didn't fall into that, but. But yeah, I was in a very rough spot. There's a reason why you did it. Loneliness, what have you, you, and then you experience this and it draws you in to another world.
It would be actually a false ecstasy. And then when this takes over you, there's a, like, this is what I experienced. You think, what kind of person am I with all these vices must be some kind of a monster. Yeah. Because. So to speak of us takes over you. It literally does, but it feels like almost like another power.
And like you said, say, well, this was just the wrong decision. It, an Irish priest wants to find sin to me as it seemed like a good idea at the time. You know, everyone can relate to that. Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And I love where you're pointing people. It's like there's a, maybe, maybe one way to say it is like there's a little bit of a monster inside of us.
that like acts out at times, but we're both the good and the bad in the sense that, you know, if we choose to do bad, like that doesn't fully define us. Like there's a reason that we're doing that. We should stop doing that and do the good. Um, but there's a reason we go in that direction. And if you shame yourself thinking like that, I just don't just do bad.
I am bad. Then the chance of you like coming back from that is like. Greatly diminished. But if you can see yourself as like, I'm both the vices and the virtues that I hold, I'm both. And I want to reduce the vices and increase the virtues. But if I want to pretend I'm just the virtues or say like I'm limited to just these vices, then I'm going to be debilitated and probably give up and just live a horrible life.
Yep. That's right. Let's go back to forgiveness. Let's do it. Someone say it's easier not to forget. It's too much hard work. It's too difficult. So the question really is to someone, especially in this position right now, like they're, they've been hurt. They kind of feel like they should forgive or they've heard they should forgive, but they're not really compelled to do that because it's so painful.
Why forgive? What are some of the benefits that you've experienced or you've thought of, or you've learned from Aquinas about forgiveness? Well, first of all, you know, there's a sense in which there's a, there's a great dignity that should be given to someone who's gone through something very, very difficult.
You know, Pope John Paul II, one of my heroes, he writes this about suffering, that suffering is uniquely your own. Right. Hopefully that does not turn us into narcissists who kind of use that as a, is like a victim mentality and have a, like a flag over your head of look at me. No one understands me.
Although that is a feeling. Yeah. But I would say to that person, okay, fair enough. That's what you feel like is going to be a lot of work and sounds like you're an intense chapter in your journey. But, but let me ask you this question. Is it worth it? Is it worth the work? If you have a thousand pound stone on your back that we call resentment and hurt and you have a bridge that you can walk over.
That is a bridge such that that thousand pound rock will take off you does that sound appealing to you? Yeah, compared to just walking around in this valley with a thousand pound brick because I think the effect of unforgiveness and and hurt resentment bitterness makes it worth it to pursue a kind of alleviation of that rock.
So it was very practical. You know, I, I like to be a reality guy more than anything in the world. Please God. Very practically speaking, if you're struggling with unforgiveness about something big, you have a huge rock in your shoulder. And it helps when someone comes up to you who has a 500 pound rock or a thousand, perhaps a 10, 000 pound rock.
And I've met a couple of those people. And at one point they had that rock in their shoulders, but they don't anymore. And here I was at the thousand pound rock. It said, can we have a chat? Wow. So very practically I would say, I love that. And I want to continue on that road for a second. Yep. Yeah, just playing out like that resentment, like we don't really often think about like, well, what happens if you don't forgive?
How is that holding you back in life? Because that might feel like the default position. And so aside from resentment, and feel free to go deeper into that, what else do you think happens if we don't forgive? How does that damage us? Because we kind of think of it as not forgiving damages the person who hurt me.
But I've heard it said that not forgiving someone is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. Yeah, I think that's right. And again, the person I needed to forgive was God. That sounds so presumptuous. It's crazy. But you know what? That was real for me. Yeah. I'm a bit of a black and white guy at times of, okay, either this faith or my faith is true all of it, uh, or perhaps none of it.
Either God is control of everything. Because he's God so presumably he would be or or it's not it's the opposite So, you know if he isn't there if he isn't control of if he is not there He is not in control of everything. And so it's a total shit show It's total chaos and that's a trauma feels like that's what unforgiveness Can feel like because of the hurt that you're that your experience has caused And so with forgiveness and unforgiveness, again, that, that's a question that is, that follows a terrible experience, a bad experience.
What I want to focus on, uh, in my life and, and back then is the experience itself. It's kind of like, how do I process this experience? And then that dictates is forgiveness reasonable, is it not? If, if I would propose if God is not real, if he's not in control of all of this, including moral laws. A bad experience may be unfortunate for you, you feel pain, but it's not violating some ultimate moral law and everything is absolute chaos and contradiction.
That's a suboptimal place to be in life, feeling that. It's a heavy place to be, but, um, but if on the other hand that there, there's been an experience of reality in your life that is causing such a pain and this gets your question now. It's, it's a, it's a thousand pound rock you're carrying. It's a disease.
It's, it's, it feels like another person. You're another person right now. And so who the hell cares about forgiveness right now? You're conscientious and I was conscientious of this is not good. This is not a good feeling to have. This is not a good place to be. It feels like life itself is a prison. And so forgiveness is a possibility to help out with that situation.
And it did me. It did me, I'll, I'll tell you why, because, because forgiveness is a way out of that to some degree. But, but I want, I want to stop there because that answers your question. Yeah. I would not say it's unforgiveness. That is the, the main issue. The main issue is going to be the experience you had, 100 percent and the pain that led to and forgiveness is, is a healthy way out.
I hear you. Not the only bit. Hey. Yeah. No, I hear you. And I think some people hear about forgiveness and they actually think that they need to jump to that prematurely. Yup. It's actually something that happens like later in the healing process, if we want to call it that. That's not something that happens right away.
And I want to get into like the steps of healing, which I know they're not totally linear, but But I think there are some good principles that we can crack into, but it's like the word you just said a few minutes ago, it's nuanced. It's not other levels. Yeah, totally. But I think it's actually harmful to try to forgive too soon.
And, uh, one of the steps that are the principles that I've heard about forgiveness is truly understanding like the cost, like what it's, the ways in which you were damaged, uh, not to remain a victim forever. I love that you brought up the victim mentality thing, because I think we all could be tempted to that, but to, uh, to truly move beyond it, to close that chapter in your life and to move on, not that it will never come up again, but that you're, you know, in a better, stronger spot, you're able to move forward.
So if someone came up to you now and said. John, there's someone who really harmed me. I want to forgive them. I just have no clue how to go about that. What would you say? What advice would you give them? It's interesting, you know, it's been 18 years I get a, get a little emotional about that question because it's a powerful one.
The first thing I'd say to that one is if a person came up to me and asked me that first step is Let's grab a cup of coffee. I want to hear about your story. I call it swapping stories. Because it's a light way in. If someone's gone through something very difficult, I don't like to get into solution mode, solutionize them.
I like to say, dude, let's get together. Let's swap some stories. Um, within the context of that story, I think it would unfold itself, the pain, the difficulty, the hurt, and then that how forgiveness might be one of their main hangups to prevent freedom because unforgiveness, it's a grasping. It's kind of a false grasping in my experience.
Kind of a false control. You think, well, I've been hurt and I'm not going to be hurt again by whatever you, the other person thinks and intends or what have you. It can be even a kind of paranoia. So within that context, I try to find out where, where they're at and then perhaps skipping ahead, perhaps not, but I would try to share from my own experience and then ultimately pointing to reality that.
As difficult as the things are that we can experience, life is greater than that. Life is much greater than that. And I think forgiveness is typically associated with zooming in on something that seems to be all encompassing. And yet, if we can take a step back, and this is the importance of story and sharing your story, feeling like someone else freaking cares.
You can see kind of a bigger Vista, if you will, a bigger landscape and that that's hope. So Unforgiveness, I think is very much tied to hope like screw this screw that it's resentment mode. It's bitterness mode Whereas if you see a greater landscape of okay, this is a difficult thing I have to deal with and and the resentment unforgiveness I have But now at least I can see a greater reality that, that, that life may offer me an experience of joy and happiness that I could not experience if I keep zoned in on this terrible thing.
Okay, that makes so much sense. And I love that idea too, that you allude to, of when people hurt you, you rightly feel that they owe you some sort of a debt. I think that's right. Yeah, and so Unforgiveness, I guess, would look like demanding that debt in some way and I want to be careful here. In some situations, it's very important that person does pay the debt.
It's important that those, in my opinion, that those kids went to prison. Yes. Like they needed to. But... Um, that's not up to you to impose that punishment. It's up to a third party law enforcement to impose that so that you're free then to release them of any further debt that they might owe you. And so that's the act of forgiveness, but it's not easy and it's not linear and it's messy.
And I, yeah, I've been there. There can be things that you really hold on tightly. You want to forgive, but it's like, I just can't let this go at this point in my life. And if I, if you're there listening right now, I would say that's okay. Yep. Like, don't, don't force it. Like, you can keep working towards that, but it's not something that maybe you're ready to do right now.
Maybe there's some initial, like John's advising you on, like, maybe there's some initial steps that you need to be taking, like going deeper into your story. Having someone who's there just listening to you, walking with you, which will then free you to get rid of that resentment, to forgive and free that person of that debt that they owe you.
Anything to add? I, I think that's right. I think there's a lot, there's a lot there. I think everything you said is true. I also think that the biggest kind of principle for me going through all this was one thing. What is really real? What the F is real here? Because if I know it's real, then I can understand.
My terrible experience, I can understand people's responses. I can understand even my own, uh, interior world kind of according to that. If things are real, if, if you will, if things are stable and then if I can kind of seek to live a life in communion with ultimately what's real rather than get caught up in what I call kind of the, um, the, the spider web.
Above my brain of trying to connect all the pieces. And I did that for five years, if you will. I got a master's degree in that. And, uh, I said that master's degree sucks because it does not work. You're just chasing everything up in the spider web compared to asking that more fundamental, admittedly abstract question.
What is really real real? Because I think there's an answer. And when you, when someone knows what's really real and they live according to that. They, they know or they think that there is a pattern of reality, there are signposts. Within which we can contextual our contextualize our lives and everything we do and there's at least a sense of Okay, things are okay at root, but one of the worst things about trauma I think the worst is that it changes your understanding of everything whereas you feel like the cosmos itself It's spinning whereas if you ask that question, what is really real you take A slow journey to your point of understanding that then everything becomes contextualized unforgiveness.
Um, resentment, spite, bitterness, even depression. You can say, okay, this is an issue. This is very difficult in my life, but it's not what is most really real. And so I at least have a little bit of time and there's a sense of like, okay, I'm okay for now. I have a journey, there's lots ahead, but I'm okay. You know, I'm at least two degrees safe because I know that reality is safe.
Well, that's, that was a worse for me. It felt like reality itself wasn't safe. Yeah. Can I imagine like watching your back constantly? That's right. Even to this day, uh, every week, once or twice a week, I will, for some reason, it's a gas stations when I'm. Filling up my car or at the, at the counter buying a, a soda, I will feel like, like if someone's behind me just automatically not, not conscientiously or uncon it's, it's unconscious, but I will feel like someone's going to come over me and hit me on the head and kind of, kind of the, the, the feeling of shutters, you know, in the body.
And that, I mean, that's been going on Joey for 18 years and. It's not about a control experience. I still in control to this point. I think, okay, well, there it is again. Just experienced like 0. 5 seconds of terror. My goodness, but it was 0. 5 seconds, you know, and it's not real. Yeah, right.
Yeah. I think lots of people can relate to that kind of an experience. Yeah, man, that's intense. And thank you for sharing so vulnerably throughout this whole interview. Um, you are very real and what are some maybe myths or misunderstandings about forgiveness that you've observed that are like really, really unhelpful that you want to warn people against?
Yeah. I would say the first one and the most annoying is perhaps the cheesy cheesy. Or cliche, Christian one, including all forms of Christian. I happen to be Catholic. And so, you know, I'm Christian. And so, so a response of like, if someone says, do you forgive them? Say, absolutely. With a certain kind of tone of voice and kind of whisper.
And you say, really, man, and I want to punch these people. Um, But really, I don't because you know what they're trying to do? They're trying to do the best they can on their own journey. Yeah. It's more about them than about you at that point. It is. And, um, you know, okay, that's how they're dealing with. But the issue is, again, you just mentioned that word real and it's not real, you know, the act of the will.
Of forgiving and I like to get into that kind of, we need to define forgiveness. Please. That office is not defined and it's terrible. Great. Because if you're trying to do something that you don't know what the hell it is, that's not good. Cause you won't do it. Cause you don't know what it is. How would you?
Yeah. It's like. Well, I need to get healthier, but I have no idea what healthy is. And so I'm obsessing all day long about being healthy, but I don't know what it is. So I have to lean on my man, Thomas Aquinas, and I'm going to paraphrase him. If there are any expert Thomas out there, please forgive me, uh, for paraphrasing this.
But I read at one point is lightning bolt of clarity for me that he said, forgiveness has to do with. Seeing the other person as more than the harm that they've inflicted and seeking to love the wholeness of who that person truly is, rather than that experience of them inflicting harm. So good. Right.
And that comes from, uh, 800 years ago because the real is really real. It doesn't change folks, people in ancient Greece. Now it's the same humanity. Human nature is constant, doesn't change. And so forgiveness has always been possible since the dawn of human history. And so step one is understanding, okay, this is what that is.
Now the next thing becomes, am I going to buy an act of the will alone is the important principle here. Am I going to lean into that? And it indeed is a lien. I am a big fan of forgiveness as a journey. It truly is. It is not a journey of emotions. In fact, essentially, emotions has nothing to do with it.
It's an act of the will. A good principle in that, I was just thinking, if you're waiting for your emotions, if you're waiting to feel like you want to forgive the person, in a sense, like, you're going to be waiting forever. That's right. You'll be waiting forever. Yeah, that, that doesn't work. And we are in a hyper emotional culture, hyper emotional.
Now I'm a passionate guy. I've got Irish, uh, got Irish blood. John Slattery O'Brien, fairly Irish name. And so boy, I got that. That is difficult blood to have when you're going through these experiences. But I would say silver lining of my entire experience has been I have learned the relationship between emotion and will, emotion and intellect and will or, or decision, right?
And the re, the relation of all that to happiness. And, and I've learned that you can be living an objectively happy day and kind of good day. An order day and still feel like a wreck and that, you know what, that's actually pretty cool because at least there's peace because peace is a coin that says is the tranquility of order.
Peace is not some emotion, essentially, it's a tranquility of order and we feel that, right? And so, as it relates to forgiveness, if we make this decision to forgive and to grow in that forgiveness, we are choosing to see that person as more than just their, their harm, their evil. And because that's true, we can have the experience of a little bit more order in our souls, in our minds and wills, according to what's really real, right?
Rather than, okay, I'm going to focus in on the harm, the inflicted, and it's going to be the only thing I see. And it's going to make me just, just a bitter, unpleasant person. Well, a, that's. That sucks. B, it's actually not accordance with reality as much as seeing the person for who they are as a whole. And so, that's where it begins.
If people don't know the definition... Like abstractly, we still know what it is kind of enough, uh, but it does help to get into what it is per se. So we begin that journey with the will. And then all of a sudden, you know, we do is I think, you know, is what I experienced. We become a little bit more integrated because we're seeing the whole, you know, think of just the most bad military person you've ever met or firefighter or doctor or cop.
They have seen everything. And you know what? You go up and talk to them about it like, man, what have you experienced that you've seen? And it's just been a nightmare. And they're like the chillest people on earth. They see reality more than more than they would if they're just zoned in on that one particular experience.
I want to be very clear. Again, there's a both hand, both hand. Yeah. It's not some simple answer that clears everything up. The good news is, is that. The real is really real and we can seek to live in accordance with that with reality and then we Become in time. It's journey of integration a better scenario a better kind of place to be on the journey I would say then sitting in your home obsessing about how much you hate this person.
Yeah. There's so much freedom there and kind of leaving that behind is, you know, when I share these things become a, because I'm a pretty philosophical guy. I am concerned that it's a little bit over the top abstract. What's, what's your sense of that right now? No, no, I think it's helpful and I think maybe being a little bit more general is helpful because then people can fill in the blanks, you know.
I think that's right. Uh, I like general. I think that's a good word because general again relates to that sense of reality, like reality is bigger than we make it. And the important thing is to gather principles for this and to, and. We're not alone and there are principles and reality is big and then there's hope.
Yeah. So you don't need to be a philosophy just nerd like I am to, to, to want to go on these things. They think the important thing is in some sense, even better is to just have a kind of on the ground understanding of these principles. So good, man, this has been so enlightening. I've learned a lot from you in this interview and I appreciate your time And just if people want to go deeper and learn more about Aquinas about what you offer.
Tell us about your nonprofit What do you guys actually offer and how does it benefit people? That's right So I have a nonprofit called the Aquinas forum started three and a half years ago, and it's very simple It's an independent nonprofit that helps people grow in faith and, uh, develop a Catholic worldview.
Uh, it's all about faith and reason, the relationship between faith and reason, which is constitute a lot of our chat here, because it's easy to live based on only faith, we call that fideism. Not paying enough attention to the here and the now the order of nature of reality or to live only off of reason which is going to be rationalism and Because there's a relatively because there's a clear limit to our reason that is not going to give nearly as much kind of hope and Greater view of the landscape of reality or even what it could be if you don't have Faith and so both of these alone, I would say Are not ideal.
Whereas if you integrate these things, that boy, that's a, that's a beautiful life. Again, my hero, Pope John Paul, the second said, faith and reason are like two wings upon which the human soul ascends to the mystery of God. You know, that's good. Yeah. And it's real. And so I started this nonprofit to help people grow on that.
I worked at a parish for a number of years. I felt like I learned some of the skills to do this. So, so to speak, I had a product to offer, started this nonprofit. We do different things locally conferences, books, studies, classes, but then I've also opened up this wing through my website. That we offer people free resources for small groups.
Nice. The how to guide for leaders or hosts, as well as the studies themselves written by some great authors. And it's, it's actually helping people to what, to grow on what's really real scripture, little bit of philosophy. Uh, we have Bible studies up now and it's good stuff and the hope is, well, the hope is hope in a sense, wherever you are on the journey, that the real is really real and that there is hope ahead.
There are good things ahead, and they're actually good things right now for your life. Love it. Yeah. And so whether someone's maybe been on some sort of spiritual journey for a while, they can join, or if someone's in the beginning of it and just like questioning things, they're welcome as well. Is that right?
That's right. So locally we have things where people can come and they can come from any faith background or none. Uh, because Thomas Aquinas, it's the Aquinas Forum, he is all about. He was all about one question and that's this what is God and so Through reason and faith he explored that and so we have lots of people that come that are just kind of seekers Yeah, you know, what is this?
Is there anything to this? And that's good. And in time, we're starting to open up other Aquinas forums throughout the country. We have two that are about to open and that's why I named it forum. It's a forum where people of any faith or the Catholic faith or no faith can come and explore the deeper questions of life.
And then also the small group, the small group initiative we have through the website that helps people do that in what I call their own corners of the world. So living room. Thank you. A tavern, whatever. Love it. Yeah. I love that. You're facilitating that and guiding it. That sounds amazing. Uh, how can people find you online?
Uh, Aquinasforum. org. Just go and check us out. You can find the email there, uh, the info email that will come to us or, uh, your, your, I can give my email now, my Aquinas Forum. Yeah. Are you open to people contacting you? Absolutely. No. I love to chat with people on the journey because, uh, candidly, that's what I was looking for for years.
Again, kind of a unique experience, faith experience I had on the ranch, trauma, but then also brain injury that that's, that's quite the intersection of things to go together. And I just wanted someone to chat with and swap stories. Eventually found one or two is great. So I'm, I love to do that now with, with other people.
And you know what I like to say, and I've found this is a great principle of freedom for other people as it has for me is this, uh, there's no red bow if, if we go through something terrible in this life. There, there, it's okay that there's not necessarily going to be a big red bow you put on top of it of like, this is why it happened and this is what it means in a holistic sense.
Trauma, it's intuitively bigger than that. That's why we have to ask the question, is there an afterlife? Because as Plato said, injustice will not be corrected in this world. I mean, Hitler killed how many millions of people, right? That's, that per se cannot be corrected in this world. But in the afterlife, through justice, and through how God deals with all of this, and including the victims of what they've gone through, we have great hope, for different reasons, that this can be reconciled.
And so, just want to help people with that. Try to offer some initiatives that can slowly, uh, including me meeting up with people. We won't talk about a red bow But we will talk about some principles. I think that can lead to greater freedom Happiness really? Yeah. No, that's so good. We all want to be happy and No, I love what you said and I love that you're so open and so generous with your time.
I appreciate you offering that. Yeah, I'm happy to. This has been a great treat. Yeah, and everyone listening right now, if you're just wrestling with those big questions or maybe you've never thought about those, um, I would say you are worth seeking answers to those questions. Like you deserve that. You deserve asking those big questions and finding answers and this is one resource that you can use.
to do that. So how can people contact you if they, yeah, so again, it's Aquinas forum. org is going to be my website. And then my personal email through the forum is John J J O H N at Aquinas forum. org. A Q U I N a S isn't Sam forum. org. Love to hear from you. Beautiful. And we'll throw that in the show notes.
So you guys can just copy and paste that as well. Want to give you the final word here. What final advice? Encouragement challenges would you offer to everyone listening, especially those listening right now who feel very stuck because of the trauma they've endured in their lives. Like what would you leave them with?
Keep moving forward. Keep moving forward. For 10 years of my life, I felt like such a wreck and I would consider man. You know, in a sense, what, what would be the greatest encouragement I could hear right now because there are so many questions and thoughts and feelings floating around that, you know what I wanted?
I wanted someone to say, John, uh, the most valiant thing you can do right now is keep keep moving forward. Put one foot in front of the other on this road to greater health. Because there are answers and I felt like that was the greatest thing I could do and wherever you are, whatever you're going through, if you are putting one foot in front of the other and you're moving forward, even if that's so slow.
You want to take bigger steps, but you can only take a small step. That's what you have control of, and that's where you can find heroism.
If you want more content, more guidance on the topic of forgiveness, I highly recommend episode 58 of the show. I spoke with an expert who did his PhD dissertation actually on forgiveness, lots of great advice in that episode. Again, that's episode 58, or you can just click on the link in the show notes.
Quick reminder that if you'd like to offer your advice on how to make the podcast even better, just go to restoredministry. com slash survey, answer the questions there and submit the form. Again, restoredministry. com slash survey, or just click on the link in the show notes. And if you do that by November 15th, you'll be entered to win a hundred dollar Amazon gift card.
That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Honestly, once it's over, just take 30 seconds to share this episode. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.
And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.
