#103: How Does Your Body and Brain React to Trauma? | Patricia Scott, LPC, PhD Candidate
What happens inside your brain and your body when you endure trauma?
Surprisingly, there’s actually a predictable way that your body and mind responds to trauma. In this episode, we break down each response with a trauma therapist. We also discuss:
How her parents’ divorce impacted her
Is healing trauma even possible? If so, what does it take to heal?
How to apologize the right way
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TRANSCRIPT
Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!
What happens inside your brain and your body. When you endure trauma, it might surprise you. But there's actually a really predictable way that your body and your mind responds. And in this episode, we'll break that down. We'll break down each reaction with a trauma therapist. We also discuss how her parents' divorce impacted her. We asked the question is healing trauma even possible. And if so what does it take to heal it? We touched on some really interesting facts about human development too. It's really important stuff to know if you want to heal and grow and thrive in life. We even discussed parenting and this stuff is relevant even if you're not a parent or you won't be for the next 10 years and how to apologize the right way and finally share for some encouragement and advice to anyone who feels broken and stuck in life. So, keep listening. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation or broken marriage so you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host Joey Panelli and this is episode 103. My guest today is Patricia Scott. She is a licensed professional counselor certified in trauma therapy and a phd candidate at Ducane University in counselor education and supervision. She graduated from Franciscan University of Steubenville with her master's degree in Clinical mental Health Counseling and from Argos University with a master's degree in sport and exercise, psychology. Prior to that, she completed her bachelor's degree in psychology, philosophy and theology at Franciscan University. You heard that right? A triple major. She served as an adjunct professor of psychology and social work at Franciscan University and adjunct faculty member at Ducane University. After treating clients as a therapist, she now works on the management side of a counseling practice as the director of data management and analytics. Petty loves to play volleyball, spend time with her family and close friends and most of all play with her nieces. Uh she lives in Boulder Colorado with her dog, Mr Darcy. So Patty is brilliant if you can tell and that's a good friend of mine. I'm just so excited for you to learn from her. Uh In this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And so if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening to this podcast for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast. So wherever you're at, glad you're here. And if you don't believe in God, my challenge to you, is this just listen with an open mind even if you skip or take out the God parts. You're still gonna benefit a lot from this episode. And since we recorded this in person too, you might hear her dog in the background. So just be aware of that. Here's our chat, Patricia. Welcome to the show. Thank you or Patty. I might refer to you as Patty. It's really good to have you. I wanted to have you on the show for a while and as we usually do on the show, let's just dive right in. How old were you when your parents separated and divorced? I was a junior in college when it officially happened. And I say officially, I found out my sophomore year of college, my mom had told me that her intention was to wait until my younger brother went to college to divorce my dad. So I knew a whole year ahead of time. So it officially happened once my younger brother was a freshman. So that would be my junior year of college. Was that kind of a burden? It was, it was, um, I was thinking about, I was reflecting on that today and just thinking, you know, what are the reasons I felt like I could have said something. I should have said something and really it comes down to just a few scenarios. Either I tell this important information and things get worse because he didn't know or I tell him he makes an effort or they both make an effort. Things get better or I tell him and I see that he makes no effort and it's heartbreaking. Um But either way I felt like being told that before it happened, put a lot of pressure to build an alliance to my mom because it was this big thing that I was told not to say anything. So having to hold on to that, I think it, it did burden me and pressured me into an alliance that I didn't want to have any alliance. I mean, they're my parents. I love them equally and that's not my information to hold. It's not my information to know. So no, that's difficult. And you know, I could see from your mom's perspective, too kind of want to prepare you. But at the same time, it's yeah, there is a burden to carry around both and the aspect of wanting to inform your dad. But also probably your brother too, knowing that kind of they were waiting for him to kind of move out and that's a lot to carry. So, ok, and I got the impression that I was the only one who was told, I'm not sure. So I'm not sure if I was being told to prepare me for it or if I was being told because she wanted to tell somebody and your child is just not the appropriate person to tell. So true. I'm glad you said that because I think there are a lot of parents listening to who are going through a lot of messiness in their marriages and trying to figure out what to do next. And I think it's important to remember that Children are not meant to be emotional confidants or not meant to kind of fill the role of a spouse or even to become a parent. And it's so easy to do. Like I get why it's done, but it's so damaging, especially when you play that out over years, like ruins, the relationship creates a really unhealthy dynamic and it becomes really sad. I've seen situations where the kids just don't want to talk to the parents at all years later. And it's how sad. It's almost as if every conversation is approached with a new hesitancy because you don't know if this is going to become a conversation about you and dad or you and mom, you just don't know. So it feels like every conversation is all of a sudden unsafe to have because it's so easy because you, you shared a life with these people. This is your family and the simplest of things is not doing the dishes or not doing the preferred way or not cleaning your room. You just never know what can lead to a conversation. Oh, I remember your mom or your dad let you do this and everything can turn so quickly. Yeah. No, I hear you. And we must develop these multiple personalities in the sense that we need to be one person around, like dad, one person around mom, one person around like maybe certain relatives or friends. And it can be really challenging to juggle all that. I know, man, there's so many heartbreaking stories of kids who literally had to juggle their lives between two homes and then everything else that comes along with that like bringing different bags to school and all that good stuff. So it's not good stuff. it's heavy stuff and uh yeah, it's, it's tragic, but I'm glad you said you love your parents because I know, um there's sometimes people get the impression that if you speak honestly about what you've been through that somehow you're putting them down or condemning them or saying that you don't love them. But I, I usually kind of cheekily ask, you know, do you hate your parents? And you already answered the question? And that's, yeah, it's, you know, we love our parents. Um, but in order to, I think to, to heal and grow, we need to be honest about what we've been through and we can do that in a way that still honors them. I am, I think the love I have for them has deepened in a sense because I've seen them, they've become more human and as I've grown older, I understand what it means more to be human and to be fallen. So I think being able to reflect on that each year, not that I make an active effort to reflect on each year but each year, like, you know. Yeah, exactly. There's, you know, it always comes up in some way it comes up or I think about it or a conversation happens and it just, that gets brought up. So, seeing more of their humanness and growing up and understanding nobody is perfect. So still it doesn't invalidate the good things they did. As a parent it doesn't take away or make worse the negative things that happened. It just makes it more human and making it more human is really humbling to see myself progress as a fallen human. So it's almost as if I understand them a little bit better and I not that I sympathize or I have compassion for it. I don't think I ever would and I don't think, I think it's ok to not just seeing it, their humanness helps me grow in love for them. No, that's beautiful and no, I could say, you know, being married and having a baby girl and you know, being a parent, it definitely opens your eyes more to you definitely can understand what your parents were going through. But at the same time, you can still kind of hold that standard up and say like no, what happened was damaging. It was difficult, it was in some cases even wrong. Yeah, you can say both of those things at the same time. So I'm curious how did all that affect you, we talked a little bit about it. But how did that play out in, you know, the years that followed? Honestly, I think there was some of God's grace at work in the timing of it, even though I found out as a sophomore and I didn't want to know that initially, it did make me more angry and anytime I would come home during that year and I was, I was more anxious because I was just waiting to find out that papers had been presented or there have been discussions with lawyers finding things out, just waiting to have this burden lifted from me. I do think there was graces in it though. I think waiting until the last kid was out of the house and in college was a smart choice. So even though you're going to do this monumental, you know, damaging thing, having an appropriate sense of timing or respect for the development of your Children and you know, with the timing of it, I think makes a difference. And so we were out of the house, we didn't have to see what happened. So I didn't, I don't know what happened on a day to day basis. None of us did because even though they were living in the same house and they were going through this divorce, none of the kids were there in the house. Now we all saw what led up to it. So when we heard the divorce, you know, I was like, oh, well, that makes sense. Like finally kind of thing. So I do think there were some graces. I, I can see that I was definitely angry and anxious. I, I think that was more leading up from a sophomore year when I found out it was going to happen to when it actually did happen and then when it did happen, I felt a big sense of relief just not because it was happening, but because I didn't have to hold that information anymore. So after that, I think I more felt a sense of relief and I was curious to know how things would happen. Whose house would I be coming home to for Christmas or Thanksgiving? You know, I didn't know that information yet and it wasn't, it wasn't figured out. So I think having it where I was away at college, it did help and I think that minimized it. I think there was a lot of safety nets there because I had a community. I had my faith. I had things to fall back on. I had school as a significant distraction and that was my vocation at the time. So I would have to really, really think and see like what were the immediate effects of it during that time when it was going on? I mean, the divorce officially, all the paperwork in courts going back and forth just ended this year over a decade later. Oh, my goodness. I didn't know that. Ok. And we're good friends for everyone listening. Yeah, I didn't, I mean, there was, I thought a lot of the stuff was over. So, I mean, the divorce itself was done but then the battles for, am I getting paid enough? You know, like going into those things, you only have so many years. So obviously it's half of the marriage in years. And so that finally is over and that, so all I would hear about is the court battles, blah, blah, blah. So now that's done and I don't have to hear that anymore. So there's a lot of relief in that I'm sure for everyone involved. But I could see especially for you and yeah, no, that sense of relief I think makes a ton of sense. And I've heard that from other people too because I remember one young woman saying, you know, her mom approached her and told her that she wanted to divorce her dad and kind of put her in a weird spot. She didn't know what to say to that. But one thing she knew was she just want the fighting to stop. And so I totally get that sense of relief immediately, especially. Was there anything else that you can kind of tie back to? Yeah, just the breakdown of your family and the divorce and everything that maybe played out years later. I mean, there's some major things I would say that play out later. But they played out in the time they played out during their marriage. So from a younger age, I obviously had a love for our faith. I had a love for theology. I had a love for church teaching. So when I first learned what marriage was learned this, this is great Sacrament. And I remember talking to it about my, with my siblings and my parents. When I say siblings, I don't mean all of them. I mean one sibling in particular just to clarify. So I would talk to about to my older sibling uh because she was also very active in our youth group at the same parish. And so I remember bringing it up to her. I'm like, oh, I just learned about this and she was like, oh yeah, our uh some of this was my mom's second marriage. Her first marriage was Sacramental. It was never an nulled because she felt at that time she was so young. She didn't have a full understanding of it that if it was to be annulled, it would be as if she didn't exist. And so that was her conception of that at the time. Obviously, that's not the case, that's a very harmful thinking and that really should be addressed and it just wasn't addressed in a healthy way. So my parents' marriage was a civil marriage. So as soon as I heard that all I could think was man, I don't want either one of my parents to be in mortal sin. I want them to divorce and knowing that I had, I think I had that thought probably around sixth or seventh grade was the first time I thought that but they should not be married. Like it's not even a sacrament. It's a valid marriage but it's not sacramental. My mom has been living in mortal sin in this and my dad's participating in it as the sin of scandal. I want this to be over and thinking, you know, it doesn't take away any of our identities as kids in a family. It doesn't take away any of that. I just wanted it to be done because I didn't want either one of them to be hurting their soul in that way. And it was very difficult to the only person I tried to articulate that to was my youth minister and my older sister, I never said that to parents. But I do remember feeling that sense of like, oh like, ok. And I remember after that would be like mom, you want to go to confession with me, but you never know if someone's going to realize that level or degree of sin and actually bring that to confession or want to, you know, have that, that cleansing from it. So knowing that it definitely put a different filter on relationships, it put a different filter on what I see marriage being and the intention behind it and having it being sacramental and the value of that as I was growing up more in high school years, not seeing what I would consider a healthy marriage, seeing more fights. I was very hesitant to get into any kind of relationship with people because I thought that's all it was. This is just someone that you fight with regularly and they just can't go anywhere like they have to come back. You know, that's kind of what my conception was of it a little bit like, ok, this is someone you have kids with, you get to fight with them all the time. But I realize as an adult, all I saw was the fighting. I didn't see the resolution. And that's something as an adult, as a therapist. Whenever I talk to people, I said the most important thing in my opinion that you can do as a parent is resolve conflict in front of your kids because so frequently we all learn how to fight. We all learn how to fight fair, we learn how to fight unfair, you know, I mean, we learn how to backstab but we don't learn how to resolve. And that is the most difficult thing. Like we rarely, probably rarely hear how to even properly apologize to someone. And now that's such a big emphasis in my life. Like when I apologize to someone, I have like a specific formula that I follow for even making an apology because it was something I had to really learn to dive into because I never saw that example through my parents. And that was hard, like realizing that like first time in the inkling England 6th, 7th grade, going into high school, seeing it more and then have developing, you know, more deep relationships with friends, seeing the importance of it and then going to their houses and seeing that their parents had such great relationships and they were playful, you know, things like what like what was in their water today, like what is going on here? So seeing that is a big gap in the knowing that something is missing in my life and something is missing in their marriage and it's not healthy, like there's something unhealthy here. So I had to do a lot of observation of other families and other married couples to learn what it is. And through God's Providence when I went back to school at Francisca, and I lived with a family, the most amazing family who they really taught me what it is to be a Catholic family and have a sacramental marriage. I mean, they're, they're beautiful. So I think they kind of were like the positive influence that kind of took away a lot of the negative effects. I mean, it influenced every single influence relationships I had from friendships to romantic interests. It affected everything of not knowing and thinking, ok, this person is just going to fight with me and leave me you know, how long do I have with this person? Because they're probably just going to leave me whether it was a friend or not. And that was, that was a definitely a hard thing to have to think of. Like, how would you enter any sort of relationship? I know I felt the same way. I remember as like a 12, 13, 14 year old, like in the years that followed my parents' separation and later divorce. I was like, I will never get married. Like just like you felt, I was like, if this is where it leads, why in the world would I want to put myself through this? Because it was super painful for me even from the outside. And then I, you know, was able to think through like, well, it must be really painful for them. I don't know what it's like, but it must be really painful. So why would I want to put myself through that? So, yeah, and I love what you said about observing, you know, healthier relationships and how that, you know, it sounds like it gave you hope and it also kind of taught you well, this is what it looks like, this is what it should look like. And I know that was super helpful for me and we've heard that trend a ton on the show and the interviews we've done. So it's really, really beautiful. I want to go back to the apology formula. You got me really intrigued. I know everyone's like ears lit up when you said that. So what is your formula if you're willing to share? Yeah. So and this is not, I don't have the book references. It's upstairs in my library somewhere. So when you are apologizing to someone, you need to acknowledge what it is, you did and you need to name it specifically. So it's not just saying, I'm sorry that you feel bad. I'm sorry that upsets you. Well, what is the that of that statement apologizing for their feelings? And you can't do that? Your feeling, your feelings are your own. I can't control how you, I mean, I can influence and anticipate what your feelings might be through my actions. And so that is part of my responsibility, however, I don't have full responsibility over your emotional reaction. That's yours. So when we apologize to someone, you're like, I'm sorry that made you upset. Ok, great. That's not an apology. The apology is discussing what that is. So when I apologize to someone, I want to make sure that I go over the exact action that I believe I was wrong in doing or was unjust because it's not always something that you're actively doing wrong. I think it sometimes can also be when you're not being just towards another person which could be that you neglected to act or you acted in a way that could potentially be harmful or you're just wrong with something, you know, you could say something that wasn't factual in the heat of a moment and it was inappropriate to say so that I think owning up to the specifics of what it is, you are acknowledging you did wrong then recognizing how either you anticipate or you think not anticipate again, that would be worse. But how you see it affected them. Whether or not your reflection on their reaction to it is accurate or not. That's not the really important thing. It's acknowledging that you, it's a way of seeing them of understanding. Yes, this is, I have been acknowledging what it is. I did wrong. This is how it affected you. At least I could see this is how it affected you. And this is why I really don't want to do that again. You know, you saying something I suppose not say I really, I couldn't stand your shirt and I made a terrible comment about it. Is this an actual statement? Right? I just kidding. No, that's a lovely color. So I might say, you know, Joey, I'm really sorry. I made that comment about your shirt. It was really inappropriate and disrespectful for me to say. And I can imagine how disrespected you may have felt and I don't want you feeling that way because I do respect you and I do care about this relationship and I wouldn't want to have you think that I don't care about you. So I'm really, I'm really sorry that in the heat of the moment I disrespected you in that way and that was wrong and I will do my best to try and not, you know, make a comment like that. So adding a little bit of um and not just saying, I'm sorry, like everyone can say, I'm sorry, not everyone can apologize. An apology is really what repairs a relationship and that's something when I go back to what I said, I heard my parents say, I'm sorry. Tons of times. I don't think I ever heard them apologize. Oh, ok. And so that's something, that's something I had to learn over time. And when I actually started practicing it, it is tough. I don't want anyone listening to this thinking that following the formula that I just did is easy. It is so incredibly difficult. Like I'm getting goose bumps, just think about how difficult it is to do. And there have been many times where it brings me to tears just because you feel the weight of it. It's almost kind of a pseudo confession to someone who's not a priest. You're really acknowledging what it is and taking responsibility and giving that action a name. And when we give something a name, we can take ownership of it and we can do something about it. It gives us a new found power over it. So that's really good. Yeah. It's very difficult to apologize. It's easy to say. I'm sorry. It's difficult to apologize. Yeah. No, that's so good. And, yeah, I think one of the things that I struggle with when it comes to apologies is there's situations where, like I was genuinely trying to do the right thing or I thought I was doing, you know, what would help that person and then there's like, either a misunderstanding or it's seen in like, a bad light and that gets really frustrating. It's like, I don't want to apologize in that moment. Like, no, no, I was actually trying to do the right thing. So that could be tricky. So any advice there for people listening who are, you know, they literally feel like no, no, like I was literally trying to help and I did something that was then perceived as harmful or whatever the thing I think with that it's, we do need to be careful of what we say, the reason you're a what it is you're apologizing for because if you genuinely did not commit an offense, you did not do something wrong. You did not do something unjust, then really what you're doing is is making a comment or having a conversation to repair that relationship because I, I don't think we should start apologizing for things when we didn't do something wrong or when we weren't unjust. So if your action, whether it was because you think you were doing the right thing, if you were genuinely doing something that was correct. And right. And just to do, you don't apologize for doing something. Right. And just, we apologize for doing something that was wrong. So I think having that distinction is really important and that's how we would approach it because it's a different type of conversation. If it's the conversation where you did do something, just, it just didn't turn out the way you wanted and it had a negative impact on them or negative influence on, on the person. That's a conversation of repair and bringing up the intention of this is why I thought this was correct. I can see perhaps I didn't go about it in a way that was going to be positive. And so I can see how maybe I did, I could have approached it differently. And the reason I'm even bringing this up is because I do care so much about you. I wanted to do right by you. I wanted to help you. And so in my perspective, I thought I was doing that. I can see that perhaps I was incorrect. I was wrong in thinking that but again, you're not apologizing for what you did. If you didn't do something unjust, then we don't, we shouldn't apologize for doing something that was correct to do. We can apologize for how we approached it. Perhaps it could have been something that you actually talked to the person about first before you did it or maybe it could have been something that you acted on it out of, you didn't use proper prudence or temperance and you acted too quickly and you didn't reflect on the situation enough. So, in that sense, you can bring that up. I just, I don't personally, I don't think, and that's tough. It's really tough on the receiving end because you want to hear that someone say like I was wrong. But when they think about it too, if you didn't do something unjust and you were not wrong, you should not be apologizing for it because you didn't. There's nothing to apologize for so that it's more a conversation to repair. Yeah. No, that's good. And I think, um yeah, I think that's freeing because, you know, I, I think at times as humans were falling, we can be malicious, we can be nasty. But a lot of times I think there's frustration in relationships where it's like there's just misalignment like you thought the person wanted this, but they actually wanted that and they were kind of put off by you trying to do the first option, you know. So I've definitely seen that play out. I love what you said about the resolution though. And that's something you taught me actually. And that I've tried to live out not perfectly um bridge and I try to do that with Lucy, especially if she sees us, like having some sort of conflict and, you know, beyond just maybe a little bit of a dialogue, like if it's something that, you know, becomes more of a conflict, we want her to know like, hey, we're fine. Like mom and daddy, love each other. We're not, nothing's changing. We're just, you know, we just had a disagreement. We had a little bit of a conflict and trying to explain it and then saying, like, we love each other and being so young right now, uh we try to show that in some sort of a physical way like with a hug or a kiss or something. Yeah. Again, we don't do that 100% of the time. We're not perfect. I don't want to give people an impression. But uh it's definitely been very, very helpful and we've seen that also with her like she lights up when she knows that like everything is ok, like there's peace in the home because it's crazy how little kids like they become very perceptive to those things. And uh and so it's, it's really helpful for so parents listening, it's a great tip. It's something that like you see an immediate effect with. And so it's something you can implement right away. And I think to add on something to another layer, having a resolution or presenting one, it also needs to be developmentally appropriate to the child because if it's not, then it's going to go way over their head and they might not realize that was actually resold. That makes sense, you know, so in the way you display it. I mean, because you can show that to Lucy at, at a young age that she is, you know, you can role play things like even sharing basic things. You wanted a toy, she ripped it from your hands. You guys fight about it and then you have a resolution. You can physically embody that and that's something that will stick because then they will pick up on that. That's the correct behavior. Even if this is something I want and I rip this out. That's not OK. Here's how we resolve that. Whether it is that that gets removed from me and hand it back to whoever or I learn to share better, whatever the case may be, it's not always my dog is snoring in the back. Yeah. So having, having something that's developmentally appropriate as a resolution, I mean, obviously as kids get older, letting them hear those discussions to the point that's appropriate for them and again, to the degree that is appropriate for them just because someone has the capacity to understand the argument and all the, you know, the words that are being said does not mean they should get all the information. So even having resolution be presented because you can, you can go fight in your room, you can have the resolution be done in your room. In private, there needs to be an additional public display that's appropriate for your Children to hear because that's what you're teaching them if they saw the original discriminated. And I think that's, I think that's what's so powerful is that you don't have to do it perfect every time. That's why you don't need to do it in front of them every time you can go resolve it in private. But then when you're ready to come back out, you need to show that there's power in having a public display of a resolution. And I love what you said before too. You just never saw that side of it growing up and then you were exposed in other relationships and you learned it, which is beautiful and that's such a hopeful message to anyone listening right now, especially maybe you're going through your parents' divorce like in the moment and you're just in a like dark tough spot. There's a lot of hope at the end of the road, there's a lot of hope ahead. So keep your head up. Um Even if it is really, really painful and hard right now. So, yeah, I love that so much good stuff there. And like I said, it works. It's, it's really, really helpful and the more you practice, the better you get at it. I mean, even if you're doing it in private and you come out and you do a role play, you will only get better at resolving things and doing it publicly. I mean, there's no downfall to it. Yeah. No, 100% and it is, um, you need humility, kind of going back to that apology. And that's, I think that's the challenging part for me. I know that's pride is easy to, uh, it influences your behavior, actions and if you're not humble then, yeah, it can be just horrible for your relationship and I've certainly struggle with that. But, um, when you are humble it's beautiful and it ends up making the relationship and it's, it's a good reminder to your kids that you're on the same team. Like the team is your family. And even, even greater than that is the priority of the marriage that you two are on the same team as a married couple as parents. And then your whole family is on the same team. So, when we don't have that, I mean, that's something I didn't have. I didn't feel like our family was a team. I didn't feel like my parents were a team. I could play off of them like a fiddle. Not that I don't play the fiddle. Who knows? Maybe I could have. I tried, but I would get a yes from this one and a no from the other. And I would play that all day easily and I knew exactly which scenarios to go to which parent for, to get the answer I wanted because I knew they were not a team. And so that's just, that was definitely a hard thing to learn. And that was something that I could see influence my relationships, even friendships if I had a disagreement. Stonewall. No, it was so much easier just to cut someone out and not try and resolve it because I didn't know how to resolve anything. Yeah. How would you? You never, I mean, some things, I mean, I don't know. I wouldn't call it a supernatural gift. Although, and I don't mean supernatural in like a hero sense. I mean, supernatural is a grace that was given to me. I felt very, very protective of friends. And so even if someone got bullied, I would go and confront the bully and say, hey, that was not ok. What you did, I want you to come apologize. And so I would, I would do that. I started doing that in like fourth grade when bullying became like, you know, more prominent when we get to fourth grade. And so I just hated bullies. And I mean, I certainly, I know there was comments I said that I can think of to this day. I'm like, man, that was really rude. So if I ever came across that person, I probably would apologize for the things, some things I said, oh, even now, but it was just, I learned that it was so much easier to cut someone off instead of doing the hard work and no one wants to know that they're wrong. No one wants to think they're wrong. No one wants to hear they're wrong. We all are very prideful and having a sense of pride is a good thing, but it, obviously it can go too far, too quickly when you're not willing to submit yourself. I mean, especially this is your spouse, you're on the same team, not having the willingness to submit for the sake of your family, for the sake of your marriage, for the sake of Christ. Like for, there's so many things that go into it just for the sake of goodness, you know, for the sake of growing and becoming a better person. I think it's extremely, that's probably one of the most difficult things to actually live out. Yeah. No, I, I can agree with that. Let's stay here for a second because we have some parents or people who will be parents, future parents and they may be wondering, I know, I kind of wonder this. Now you're making me think, what do you do as a parent when kids try to, like, pit you against each other? Because they're so good at it because they're so good. I remember doing that as well as a kid. And so, yeah, what do you do in this situation? Have a game plan going into it? We all know kids are going to do this. Even if, even if you're a great example of a marriage, kids are going to do that because they're not going to be satisfied with a no answer, no kid wants to hear it. Can I have a dessert? No, if you said that I was going to go to mom or dad and I'm going to figure out who's going to say yes. And then I'm going to go to that person to get the answer I want next time. So having a game plan ahead of time and just having the default statement of saying I need to talk to mom about it. I need to talk to dad about it and just doing that and knowing that if that becomes your go to phrase, they will stop asking you, they will stop asking you because they know they can't play that game with you. And even if your kids are doing it now where they're pitting you against each other, you can start doing it. Now, it's going to be an uphill battle. It, it absolutely will, it will get worse before it gets better. And it could be that your spouse gives in more because it is tough. It is tough to maintain a new behavior, especially when you know that behavior is going to be a painful growth. You're gonna have some significant growing pains for your kid, but it will get, it will get better if all of a sudden they realize, ok, every time I have come to you with this, you said I need to talk to mom or I need to talk to dad first and not even giving them an answer. And that's, that's the important thing is not giving them even your preliminary answer. Cut it out completely and say no, I need to go talk to the other parent and then we'll give you an answer. So please don't ask me about it again until I have a chance to talk to mom or dad. That's so important because if you give them a preliminary example or the preliminary answer, they think that that's going to be the final answer. And so they might become even more upset if that's not the final answer. So it's better just to leave that out completely and say nope, I need to talk to mom or dad about it first. So like a scenario I know with Lucy, she's so funny. She has this like motion that she does when she wants ice cream. Like we try not to give her too much ice cream but she like imagine licking ice cream. She does that she goes and that means like I want ice cream. And so one of the mistakes I'm realizing I've made is I say, well, it's ok with me. If it's ok with mom, it would be better to say because then all the pressure is on her and then she'll be actually disappointed, but it's better to say like let's talk. I need to talk to mom. I don't know yet if you can not talk to mom. So OK, let's get him learning. Thank you even saying that, that little piece. He said, I don't know if you can yet because even that statement signals to the kid, it's up to mom. I see because you have just acknowledged that you don't have the answer and that you have to ask mom because mom holds all the power. Ok. Yeah, because then you're basically putting all the power and pressure because then because the kid is going to question, well, why don't, you know, I'm asking you, you're my parent, you know, so obviously depends on the cognitive ability of the kid. But that is something that they will catch on to. I mean, if I'm able to catch on to it in a second now, kids, kids get that so much quicker. I mean, they will believe your behaviors so much faster than they believe your words. I mean, they will just read that for days. So it, it even though it as difficult of a suggestion as it is just not giving any kind of answer and saying I need to talk with mom about it first, then I'll let you know, please don't ask me about it again till then. That's it. I mean, something different in the dynamic of I have my nieces spend the night with me usually once a week and I have done that since I moved here in 2020 which has been amazing. I love being able to give their parents a date night because I think it's so important for spouses to have a designated date night and have it be as routinely as possible. So they have it usually once a week, at least during the school year, it's always once a week and when they're at my house, because I have seen at their house that dessert is such a problem whether they haven't eaten enough to get dessert or they don't get the dessert of the choice or they misbehave. And so dessert is taken away. I mean, it is, I mean, it's just a nightmare. It's like a nuclear bomb just went off in the house. And so in seeing that I was like, nope, that does not fly in my house. I will not put up with it. So we do not do dessert in my house, period at all. They never and so it took a little bit for them to because initially we did and it started off with they would never finish it. So they would insist on having their own. We would get like a little mug cake. So it's like an individual cake. You put the mix in your cup and then you put in the microwave and you just eat a little cake out of your own little personal size mug, but they would never finish it. So I was like, ok, well, I'm not going to try and get you to finish your dessert just for the sake of finishing it. I'm just going to take it away because if you really, all you had was one bite. So you two can either decide to share or we just won't have it. They didn't want to share. So I said, ok, we're just not going to have desserts anymore, then that's fine. So they stopped expecting it and it's never a problem. So now if I give them a dessert, it's like this huge surprise. And so now you can ask my sister this, I think it was two weeks ago when I brought them home, she just sat at the other end of the counter and she goes, so I'm just curious, is there anything that mom and dad can do differently to help you listen to us better because you seem to listen to Peter so, so much better. There's never a problem. You don't throw temper chances for her. What is it? And it was her Aunt Leila's answer was very interesting. She said, well, Peter Rat doesn't give us warnings. She says sometimes when you give us a warning, I get anxious and I think I'm going to make a mistake. And so I get more emotional. If I do make a mistake, this is coming from a seven year old. This is pretty profound stuff for a seven year old to be saying in Lucy, you know, she chimes and she goes, yeah, parent doesn't give us warnings. She just tells us what happened or if we did something wrong we resolve it and we move on like there is no warning, there is a correction and that's it. So, I mean, it is the case when I thought I was like, man, do I ever really good warnings? Like no, actually I, I really don't. And so we don't have issues and so having different set of expectations and being prepared for those, like not simply not having dessert, period. There's no expectation for it. So there's no temper tantrum. There's no emotions around dessert. If you get it, it is a genuine treat. So it's never about you have to finish your food. You don't, you can't merit it at my house. And that seems to help. The master is a little tiny. I know dessert is very, very small, but for little kids, it can be really big deal when you're trying to get them to go to bed. So it's just an easy thing to do. I mean, it's not really easy because obviously if they're so used to it, it, it takes a long time to get out of that habit. But it is possible. I don't even remember where that tangent started. This is good. No, I appreciate you going into this and I'm learning and I know everyone listening is learning too and just to be clear to everyone listening, I do not have Children. I have nieces and nephews and I adore them. So I love being the thing that they get to come hang out with. Yeah. But now you have all your background and studying human development and helping people in that way too. So that's certainly helpful. And no, this is really good stuff. Going back to your story a bit. We were talking about just how your upbringing and what you experienced at home impacted you personally and we got into your relationships. Was there anything else you add about your relationships? Whether it's your friendships, dating relationships that you saw, like, were affected by the, there was this little thing I didn't realize how big of a deal it was until I started dating someone in a very serious way. And I can see a serious future with holding hands. And the, and the reason was I never saw, I think I can count on one hand, the number of times I saw my parents hold hands. Yeah, exactly. And when I think about it, I'm like, man, that's when all the other functions are gone. When you can't be physically intimate with your partner. If you or your spouse, you can't have a conversation with them because maybe you're mentally, not there or you're sick and you can't kiss them. What's the one thing you can still do is hold hands and so never seeing that really growing up, I realized how, I mean, I'm also a physical touch person that's really important to me. So, seeing that that wasn't done and it's such a simple thing. And then when you see like old people holding hands, you're like, oh my gosh, they are just the cutest thing ever. Like you have to ask yourself, what is the reason I'm having that reaction to seeing some strangers hold hands or why do I find it so annoying? When I see a couple at a table who are just like following each other's hands, you're like, ok, guys eat your dinner, you know, but there's something really, I think there's something so powerful about that because I mean, our hands are very, very sensitive and we use them to speak, we use them to do day to day action. So we use, they're so profound. I mean, we wouldn't really be humans without our hands, you know, like obviously there's much more to that statement. This is just a very simple thing, but I didn't realize how important holding hands was until I met someone that I really, really want to spend a future with and thinking man, my favorite thing like when I and don't get to be around you, the one thing that I want to do is hold your hand and it's because I never saw it. And so I, I explained to him, you know, I really think the most important thing to me is to make sure that if we, if we're still together, if we get married, we have kids that we better hold hands, whether you are upset with me or not. If I reach for your hand and you deny holding my hand, like there will be hell fire running down. But I just think there's such importance in holding hands. Like because even if, even if kids are not comfortable hugging or they're not comfortable sitting next to you or they're not comfortable with any kind of physical touch. Generally, they might be ok with holding your hand. Like because it could be a safety thing like crossing the street. So they get used to holding your hand for some reason. So there's so much about holding hands that I think goes understated. Yeah. And I didn't realize that until I was an adult and then when I realized why it was, I realized I didn't see my parents hold hands. Yeah. OK. Now that makes so much sense. It's such a primal thing to I forget if this was in a talk or something. But when we're meeting someone for the first time too, you might have even taught me this. The, the act of like shaking a hand or showing your hands is actually on a subconscious level. Like we did have this conversation many, many years ago. It's like a signal of safety. It's like, oh, they don't have like a weapon again. It's like a primal thing, but they don't have a weapon in their hand. They're not trying to hurt me. They're giving their hand as like an extension of vulnerability and trust And so that makes sense. Why that would be that important to you? That's cool. Anything else that you would add about, kind of the impact on your relationships? I would say the intentionality of approaching relationships. So I'm just now entering into a relationship where I'm like, ok, I'm on my end. I'm like, 1000% positive. This is the person I want to marry and then having that hesitancy of, well, I've met lots of people who were wrong, who may have had that same thought. So how could this be different or how can I better prepare myself? Because, I mean, the last thing I want to do is think of what kind of letter would I write in an annulment to try like annulment process to say that I didn't know or that I wasn't prepared and I don't want to ever be in that position, you know, I mean, it's just, it's interesting because I, I mean, I didn't really know the annulment process until I met someone who had gone through it. And they had to have, they had to write their own witness statement, but they also had to have friends, either the person like the best man or someone at the wedding party or just someone who knew them intimately, they have to write in a statement as well to support that. Let's explain that a little bit for people who don't know what we're talking about. So, I annulment is saying that valid marriage was never, is it valid or sacramental marriage? Sacramental marriage was never created or I don't know what the right term there is. It never, it never take place. And so there was like an appearance, but there was some substance was missing, something was lacking essentially. And that's a longer conversation of like, well, what are the different property or what are the different things that need to be present? That's a separate conversation. But in this context, we're talking about, yeah, when you go through that process, you're essentially trying to explain why you think there were those things that were lacking that did not allow you to enter into a sacramental marriage. So that's what you're talking about when you're writing that statement. Yes. And I can't remember if it was in a movie or if I heard a story about some kind of mobster or gangster or something. I, I remember a story though that each time this person had gotten married that he would write a letter explaining that he really had no intention of being faithful, didn't want to marry this person, but wanted the appearance of it to be a sacramental. So they wrote a letter prior to the sacrament taking place so that when they wanted to get a divorce, they could because they had written this letter beforehand. And so I think that's kind of where I can't remember where this came from. But when I heard of that. I was like, man, it's that easy. It really is the intentionality of it. So I don't ever want to put myself into a position where I have to think back on a time that was positive because I don't think anyone really looks back at their, their wedding in that time of marriage prep thinking I should not get married. I mean, I think there are people and if that's the case, then there is grounds for annulment because obviously that is indicative of some kind of pressure or there was something withholding and not allowing them to express their full free will in that. And obviously, that's a condition for it. But thinking how, how best can I prepare myself for this to know that this is a good decision and not just a good decision, but a real decision, one that has firm grounding like I'm not just standing on sand. And so now like I'm going through a book that says, you know, 100 and one questions before you get engaged. And it's really because you've mentioned how helpful it's been. We've only gone through eight questions and we this has been weeks and the conversations end up being more than an hour multiple times. I've cried just because some of them are really difficult to have to think of because you have to, you're explaining things that you don't want to shed light on. But if you're going to be spending your life with someone. There's a lot of things you need to shed light on and to make sure that, you know, that you are entering in this with a full and free knowledge of someone and that's so difficult and, and I'm not sure that my parents had that at all. And so I think that's something that from seeing an unhealthy example of a marriage thinking how can I prevent that or guard, not prevent it, but guard myself against that. And I think a really good step to guard yourself against that is to do the really hard work before you initially say yes, I'll marry you. I love that. And it's really tough. Like we've only gone through eight questions and it's been like nine hours of us talking and like I said, I mean, it's, it's emotionally really good, but afterwards I feel so much better, like it's just, it's not a weight off my shoulders. It's not as if I'm withholding anything. It's just being intentional about the reason we're asking these questions is because we are discerning if we should get married or not. And so I think it's so important. So what are some examples of the questions just for anyone who's thinking like, yeah, I could really use that in my relationship. Like maybe they're in a dating relationship or maybe they even are engaged and they're trying to, you know, further decide discern is this really the right person for me because that really is what engagement is. It's a time of like further sermon. So I'm just curious. Yeah, what that book is like and what some of the questions are? Yeah, I'll just go through the first question was great because obviously it opens up a space for the further questions. The first question is what makes it easy for you to be vulnerable and open and what makes it difficult? Obviously, that's very intentional is the first question because you want to create a space where you are willing to be vulnerable and open. Because if you're not, then you shouldn't go through this book. Like if you can't create that or they can't provide that or they're not willing to work on providing that, then you've got a problem. Yeah. So if you can't make it through question one, you have got a problem like that's a big red flag right there. If you, if your answer is I'm not willing to be vulnerable in front of you, do not proceed until you, you address that. Um One that was very difficult for me. Uh Was the question, how do you maintain healthy interdependence? So I've been on my own for so long. I can move myself from house to house, all by myself. I can do fixing things around my house all by myself. I can do a budget all by myself. There's so many things that I'm completely capable as a human being to do all by myself and you just have the temperament to just being a very independent person like me, I, I've always, I've always had that. Like, if I see something that needs done, I'm just going to do it and even if I think someone else could help me with it, if I think it's going to take them longer to do it, I'd rather be more efficient and do it myself. So it's very tough to say, ok, how am I going to actually allow this person to enter into my world and me give up something and allow them to do something for me. Even, even like how I put groceries away in the refrigerator, the simple thing, you know, it's something simple or how I fold a towel. I'm so used to doing it the exact way I have done it for so many years. And now I'm going to not only give up that desire for how I've always done it, I'm going to allow someone else to do it for me or they're going to allow me to do something for them. Like the, the humbling aspect of that. I mean, it's even just ironing someone's shirt for them, you know, like everyone's capable, not everyone, I guess, I don't know that for a fact, but many people are capable of ironing their own things but allowing someone else to serve you in that way. And that's something that I think is very profound. I've always wanted and I have a very strong desire to serve others and act like act of service. I think it cannot be understood. I think it's a great thing and it's something we should all practice. Not because it's our love language just because we should do that. We should sacrifice that because it's, it's saying that you're worth my time, you're worth this effort. I think it's extremely important. So this question, I think we, I think we talked about this one question for two hours and I was bawling because I was like, I like, that's one thing I'm so petrified of is that I'm not going to know how to give something up even though I want to, I desperately want your help. I want you to be able to do these things for me because I want to be able to receive that love from you in that way. And it would be great. I'm just afraid that I'm not going to be willing to actually give it up to allow you to do that whether that's my pride or just anxiety popping up because it's something different and I have to get used to it. That was a really tough question. Yeah. No. That makes so much sense that I could see the, this book being a great conversation starter and it gets to the root of, you know, so many of those foundational things that you want to be on the same page. On when it comes to at least to know kind of what to expect moving forward. So, wow, I love that and I could see how that would be super, super helpful. So, anything else before? Yeah, I would say there's one more question, that's a beginning question that was really profound and I didn't limit it. I, when I read this, you'll know that there's a one specific sense of this statement, but I took it in a different direction. Obviously, that's just if there's one direction, I'm always going to go a different one. So what have you learned from previous relationships that will make you a better spouse uh for someone at this time? And so when we hear the word relationship, we're thinking romantic relationships, I didn't take it that way. I thought of how, what's my relationship as being a daughter? What's my relationship as being a sibling? What's my relationship as being a friend? What's my relationship as being, you know, beloved daughter of God? What have I learned from those relationships that make me a better person to make me a better spouse? And that was, I mean, that was tough, like just actually thinking and reflecting on that because I mean, like, yeah, I think it was so great. Yeah, I do, I do think I'm great. I think I'm a wonderful person. I think I'm a worthwhile person. But what has helped me to get there? And it is a very humbling experience to actually reflect on the ways you haven't been a great friend or you have missed opportunities to serve others. And so thinking of that and thinking, how has this made me a better person now, or how is it going to make me a better person in the future as someone's spouse? A tough question? That is a tough question. So good though. I'm glad you brought that up and I think it's an excellent resource for everyone listening, especially people who are entering or in a relationship to help, you know, further discern if this is something that could turn into marriage that could go down that road before we transitioned into talking about trauma. I'm curious, what were a few things, the two or three things that helped you cope with the pain that you were dealing with and also to heal? Like, what were some things that helped you cope and heal? I think first and foremost, not being in the environment. And I can't even say how it helped me because I have no idea what it was like because I wasn't there. But I can anticipate what it might have been like because I can reflect on what our family like was like when I was there. You know, the all the arguments and things like that and unhealthy behaviors and patterns not to say that there weren't some healthy ones too. Of course, there were. But I mean, we're kind of primarily looking at the ones that are more unhealthy. So I think the most powerful thing that was helpful was the fact that I was not physically there. And then I, where I was at college, I had, I had my faith community. I had my friends, I had sports, I had my classes, I had positive things that were actively engaging me instead. So I only had to really think about going home for the major holidays or for break and I imagine things probably would have turned out very, very differently if I had been there, if you were in the midst of it. Yeah. No, that makes sense. Um, and that's something that we recommend from time to time. If things are so intense and toxic at home, it's good to have a breather. It's good to have some space. It can, it can be very, very helpful in terms of, yeah, just helping you not be as emotionally distressed and maybe acting out in different ways trying to deal with the pain that you're experiencing. So I'm right there with you and I think even beyond that, uh, now that I think about it more, but if you really care about your Children, the way that you imagine yourself to care about your Children, if you're going through a divorce and there is no way for them to be physically somewhere else like they're not off to college, they are there making sure that they do have the positive relationships and positive outlets and that you encourage them to maintain their level of participation if not increase it. I think that's something to really think about. Obviously, I, I can't say one way or the other. Um, but I do think that would, I mean, it would only serve to help, you know, to make sure that you're encouraging and not, not limiting it because you're fighting or you're having a bad day. So you're just going to cancel a play date or cancel that sport or cancel that practice. You know, I think encouraging it more and making the effort more to ensure that they have all these, what we call protective factors in their life. Um So maintaining those, if not increasing them for your Children, that makes sense. Was there anything else that was healing for you? It was a long road of healing, you know. Yeah, there's, I would say it all comes for me personally, it all comes back to prayer. And I, during that time, I felt most at peace when I would be able to go to daily mass. I mean, we were very fortunate that the Franciscan University to be able to have three different masses to choose from. Now, it's four, I think masses to choose from on campus. So being able to just offer, I would go first thing in the morning. Um And I did that, I think the majority of the time I would I would go to usually would always for sure. It would always be lent. I would always make sure. Ok. No, this is, I have to go on them but then I would just continue it and it would just kind of just stuck. So then when I got back I'd be like, oh, I would just go anyways. Um, so at that time I hadn't always gone to adoration routinely, but I always went to mass. And so just having that, having that way to start my day and pray the rosary. I mean, I don't, there's no way we can understate that. I mean, it's the source and sum of our, our faith. So allowing yourself to be drawn in and, and knowing that you're not always going to feel good when you go, just the action of choosing to go, even when you feel like a wretch, even when you feel like there's no way that you could even force a smile from your face. Like the greatest effort you're making is getting yourself to get out of bed. You have to remember you by doing that. You're telling yourself more than you think, by choosing to get out of bed, by choosing to maintain your commitments, by choosing to engage in mass to, by choosing to engage in prayer. You are in a very real way telling yourself just how much you are worth it. And so when you had people in your life that maybe weren't telling you you were worth it or that's your perception of it, doing those little things for yourself or you might not be actively telling yourself you're worth it. But you really are in a behavior sense. Ok. Now, that makes sense. And that almost goes further than words for a lot of people at least, which I, which I like, I want to transition into trauma. I don't know, we don't have too much time left, but I'd love to know we've talked about trauma a bit on the show. But I'm curious, uh what's the definition of trauma that you uh for me, the definition of trauma is having something that stresses your resources beyond their capacity. So it could be because trauma can happen. I mean, usually we think of it in a negative sense like post traumatic stress disorder, we think of that, but in a, a lighter sense, it could happen when something really good happens. Like anything that really stresses all of your resources to the point where you do not have the mental, physical emotional resources to continue on at the, you know, maintaining the same level of behavior that you were the same level of competence that you were to me in that sense, it is a trauma. So it could come even from the birth up a new child, that's something that is so gloriously wonderful. But for that short period of time, it can also be very traumatic on us because it is pushing through every single resource you have. And if you don't have additional people to make up for the resources that you're now stressing like family or friends or community, then it can become a problem very quickly. But when you do have those and you're not stretching out every single resource you have till it's bare minimum or its absence, then you're just going to remember that time as, yeah, it was stress when it was hard but it, it was wonderful and I want to have another one. But when you don't have that, your idea is no, like having another one that, that becomes the most difficult thing that you don't want, you want to do. But at the same time, you don't because you know, the stress and the trauma that is going to bring you because your resources are just going to be blood dry again. Ok. That's super interesting. I've never heard anyone that it get a totally different, totally different one, but I think it becomes more applicable to many more things. I wouldn't, I would say my definition. There's definitely some capital t traumas that we would say. But I would say it really acknowledges a lot more of the lower case t traumas that we can experience throughout just day to day life. I'm not saying that it's gonna have a lasting impact, but I would say that I would qualify it as it was one, it does affect you. No, that makes sense. I want to go deep here. What happens inside our bodies, inside our brains when a traumatic event occurs. And I know it's a big conversation. But yeah, let's chip away at it. So, I mean, there's lots of different theories. I mean, essentially we engage in our fight or flight response. And so usually initially, we are startled by something that's the shock of what took place, the event itself and then we can go into our fight or flight and how someone's going to respond to that, it's everyone can be different. And many times we can be shocked, I think by how we react because we can say, you know, well, I always think I, you know, I would be someone who reacts this way if I was given that situation, that might not be the case. You know, it might take you actually being in that scenario to realize how you would respond and it could be completely different than your personality. I found that out the hard way when I had to go through my own trauma, I think, knowing, realizing that I'm a person who's probably going to freeze when everything about my personality, if you met me would tell you that I'm fighting 100%. And so, I mean, that was really even that in itself realizing that and reflecting and I was like, wow, that was in itself very traumatic and very hurtful. Like thinking, I actually for a period of time, thought less of myself because I was like, man, you rose, you didn't fight the way you thought you'd always fight and maybe because you, maybe you weren't capable, who knows? Like I don't, I can't completely say everything to that state, but all I know is that I, I totally froze and that was not, that's not who I am. That in day to day life, that's not who anyone would think I am. And so you learn a lot about yourself. So then after that, the fight or flight, then we have, you know, we, we can go into a freeze and then we have what we consider an altered state of consciousness. So that could be where they, you know, we could think of it as you're in shock or you have an out of body experience as if you are, you know, detached from yourself, watching it happen like you're a witness to it now, um that's a very common thing for people to report happening. And then after that, we, we kind of start to return. And during that also that altered state of consciousness or that out of body experience, you're really not aware or you may not be aware of the physical bodily sensations that are going on. Like you might not feel it like some people who don't realize that their limb was just cut off and they don't feel anything until they actually look at it and then it clicks with their mind that your arm is missing. You should feel extraordinary pain right now and they don't feel it until they actually look and acknowledge it because they're in such an altered state of consciousness that it takes them coming back down. And when they actually are in a place that self repair is the, is the very, what we consider the very end of it. When they start getting into that, they can act. That's when they'll start all the body sensations and thoughts come back and you could be capable of feeling. So between the out of body or the altered state of consciousness and repair, we can go into what we consider just an obedience state. And this, you see a lot with first responders, someone comes to rescue you, they give you directions and you're just going to blindly follow them. But this can be something that is for better or for worse. Uh because it could be someone who is harming you that you're now obedient to because you're just in that you're not fully capable of your own free will in a sense because you're just, you're not in your right mind and that's just a response from it. And until you're in a space where you can be safe, whether that's emotionally or mentally or physically, you're not gonna really get out of that, you're just gonna be listening to the directives that are given to you and God willing, it's going to be through someone who has your best interest and is there to protect you, like someone, you know, officials out of the police or fire department or, um, an EMT. And once you're able to do that, then you can kind of go into the, the self repair. But even the self repair doesn't always mean that it's gonna be positive. It can be something that, and I don't even really want to say negative. It could be something that is life impairing might be a better way of saying it. I mean, we could become more obsessive compulsive with things. I'd say that's probably a very common one. I, I saw that in my own life. That was definitely the path that my trauma took. I mean, it could be with how we eat, it could be with how we exercise. It could be with different addictions. I mean, usually it's very behavioral. That's, that is the one theme of the self is that if it's going to become an issue in how you live your life, it's going to usually come out in the behavior of some kind. And for me, it was definitely the obsessive compulsive of needing everything to be within my control because I wasn't in control and I had a sense of obeying someone that I did not want to because I froze because I wasn't able to fight or fight. And some of that and some of that, when you, when we say fight or flight, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm physically fighting you or that I'm physically, you know, it could be that you're stuck and you freeze because you are physically not able to fight. I mean, and that's a very real thing that people need to acknowledge that sometimes we physically cannot fight and we physically cannot flee. And so our body just start, we just go into a freeze kind of state. So when we come out of it, our self repair could be that we are now in need of absolute control over every single piece of our life. And for me that could have, that came down to how I clean. It came down to how I organize things. It came down to how I put away silverware, it came down to how I fold things, how I organize my closet, everything had to be absolutely perfect. And if it wasn't, then I would get extremely frustrated and I would be easily become angry. Yeah. Um And I usually wouldn't be angry at myself like it would show up in some other relationship, like I would get set off by something little. But it's really because I couldn't keep this, this one thing to be exactly the way I wanted it to. It makes so much sense. And now I like how you said, the self repair is really just a way to kind of feel some level of normalcy back in your life or to get yourself out of a maybe super anxious or super depressive state, like an emotional equilibrium, which makes sense. And there's some really unhealthy behavior that actually does that. And so that's what you're saying, that it serves a purpose. We don't want to continue down that road, but it's there for a reason. And that's often what kind of brings us back to that. And you might not even recognize it. Like a lot of people with mine didn't recognize the obsessive and compulsive behaviors that I was doing. They just thought I was super organized and super on top of my life, like, like type a personality and really, no, my personality is, yes, I'm a very organized person. I prefer to have my life organized. I prefer to anticipate my day to day. Like, I prefer to anticipate three months from now, to be honest. But I can allow to have dishes pile up. I mean, usually not very much because I don't, I have a routine and a habit that I generally don't let that happen or I could go a day where I don't make my bed even though generally I usually do every morning. So it could be things that we see as good behaviors or good traits or things, you know, sense of perfection that we want. But it, it's, it's unhealthy because it was impairing my life that it was affecting how I saw the world. It was affecting how I was able to interact with other people because I couldn't do it. And that's, that's the thing to watch out for, for people. OK. That's good. All right. I want to explain and kind of this whole model one more time and we can use me as a guinea pig. OK. So, so I remember when my mom uh I talk about this sometimes on the show. So forgive me if this is repetitive for some of you listening. But I remember when my mom broke the news that they were, my parents were getting divorced, I was 11 and it was so shocking, like it literally shattered my world. It was really difficult to hear and all. Yeah, I remember that that sensation of like being startled, like kind of looking in disbelief at my mom. Like is this real, is this like actually happening? And then having the reaction of just like crying and, and feeling really angry kind of simultaneously? And so all I could do in that moment was flee. Actually, I remember, yeah, just going hiding in the closet to where like no one could find me. And I was just like kind of suddenly sobbing and just like really, really, really angry. Yeah, kind of like that. Maybe I don't know if that at that point, I was having the psychotic body experience, but I can see how these stages play out. So with that example, if you would kind of explain the model again to make it a little bit more concrete. Yeah. So in, in, in just hearing what you said, so obviously, the startle is very obvious when you hear the news and your fight or flight was very obvious when you said you went into a closet and you started crying with it. Um So the altered state of consciousness would come in or how we would in within this model describe based on the details, solely the details that you gave me. The question is this real that going through your mind and having that doubt and that would be considered for this model and altered state of consciousness that in in this therapeutic approach, we would address that would be what we used for the alternate of conscious. Is that just sense of gosh, how could this be real? How could this be my real life like that is alter state of conscious? Doesn't mean you have to be like hallucinating, you know, it doesn't have to mean anything like that. It could just be that, that sense of doubting the reality of the situation in a very simple way that makes sense. Now, for the sense of automatic obedience and the self repair, based on the details of the story provided, I wouldn't be able to say that this was, you know what that was what was going on. I imagine though that some of the body sensations or the attempt to self repair for you. If you were putting yourself in a closet away from other people crying, you probably, or may have very well had your arms wrapped around your knees rocking yourself as a way of attempting to comfort yourself within the tears. Yeah, that's what it was for sure. That's, that's something that we in an attempt. If you always grew up knowing that was a pattern of comfort for something that brought you comfort, then that very well could have been the self repair that you were attempting to self soothe. It may not have been what actually brought the repair and usually it isn't because it's, it can happen in a very all these things can happen in the span of five minutes or they could happen in the span of five years. We just never, you never know like someone could be um like there's people who are all of a sudden in a clinical sense they have are presenting with schizophrenia when really that's just an altered state of consciousness. And once the trauma is resolved, the schizophrenia may very well go away or diminish to a significant degree where it's no longer clinical, like clinically impairing their life. And schizophrenia again, just for this thing where you're going to be having disorganized thoughts, you might not even be able to string a sentence together in a way that's cognizant to other people. You probably will have either audio visual hallucinations, you may smell things that aren't there. You may have delusions, either of gran or you may think you're Jesus Christ, you may think that everyone is out to get you different things. So it's definitely you are out of touch with reality. I see kind of a break from reality. That makes sense, right? Which is why that would fall in some people who are just in an altered state of consciousness from a significant trauma may present with schizophrenia. Hm. Wow. Ok. I didn't know that that's profound and yeah, and that makes sense with the example I gave how maybe not all the stages are in there. But if I were to continue telling this story, I know for me, one of the things that I fell into which I've shared openly in this show was, um, yeah, pornography became kind of a self repair because it was a distraction. It was something that was brought relief. It brought pleasure, obviously, it brought, yeah, just kind of a way to like emotionally regulate. And so I can, I totally see that as an attempt to self repair as well. But yeah, I don't, I guess the obedience thing I didn't see as much or I'm having a hard time like putting my head around that one. It might not be that every single one of these the phases might not be present in every trauma, right? Or you might not even be able to identify them. You simply we don't always know. That makes sense. I can say I had kind of some weird situations where I've pulled up on like car accidents for some reason, like a good amount of them and try to help the people, like hop out and help. And in those moments you can tell, like people are like kind of during the headlights sort of look that startle and then yeah, they'll do anything you tell them at that point, like if you tell them to like, stop, if you tell them to get out, like whatever, it's, it is profound. So you can clearly see that like anyone who's ever been in that situation or maybe you've seen it on TV or something, you can see how, yeah, that obedience kicks in and hopefully it's with a person, like you said, who's trustworthy because then that's a really good thing. I doubt you could talk to any firefighter EMT or police officer that has not experienced that during, you know, approaching, um, some traumatic experience that someone is going through. Yeah. No, that makes so much sense. Anything else you doubt about the motto in terms of the phase, the phase in itself? No, it is a very, I would say it's a difficult model to go through. Uh So part of the premise is that it's not just discussing these different phases. So what we would have someone do is draw them out and that can be extremely difficult. I mean, not that it can be, it will be, it will be very difficult to do this. However, I have seen people who I had a client who every single minute of every single day was scheduled because she presented, she had sexual trauma for when she was less than two years old and she presented with significant O CD. And so to the point where she wouldn't even allow herself to go to the bathroom until it was time on her schedule for her to go to the bathroom. And so her day was so rigid because she lacked so much control in her life. And that's just how it presented. So it was extremely difficult. And I worked with her for a couple of years and we went through and by the grace of God, she was willing to give this a try no matter how difficult it was. And we went through and she drew out these different stages for different traumas. Then we put them up on a board and I retell the story back to them, but we tell it in a way that usually you put something over their eyes so that they can focus with just one eye. And so that that will help them see it in a different it, it changes your perspective. So it alters the way our brain takes in that information by kind of providing almost like a tunnel vision of it. And so it also provides detachment because when you look through a telescope, things can look, they look far away. They're not, they're not completely present to you. So it's you're telling the story back so that I'm an audience to my own story now. And by doing that, it allows us to close the story because generally what we're seeing is that these different mental health disorders are presenting because that story was not resolved. So when we're, when we're able to start a story and end the story or the trauma, we're able to resolve it mentally and they can file that away and put it away and not have to bring it back out unless they willingly want to and then they can move on with their life. And so this was, this was someone who from every minute being scheduled to not having to schedule anything and living her life freely being able to engage in relationships. I mean, it was a significant transformation but it was extremely hard. I mean, there were some days where even I didn't want to go through working through the therapy with her because it was, I could see it was such a struggle for her. But I also I didn't want to see it's not pleasant content, you know, asking someone to draw out some of the most disgusting things about human behavior and human corruption. It's tough. I mean, it's excruciating. Yeah, but knowing that it's also extremely humbling that this person trusted me so much to help them change their own life and to share their story. I mean, it's, it's, I think I'm one of the most humbling things to be a trauma therapist, I bet. Yeah. Wow. Profound. And that was my next question. Actually, some people I think, feel that healing isn't even possible that the hand they've been dealt in life is just what they have to deal with. They have to carry, carry on. They have to do the best they can that there's no way to really improve. It's just kind of get through survive and, and I get that, I get that feeling. But yeah, is it possible? I mean, you just said it is absolutely, it's not easy. It's possible. It is not easy for some, it will be easier than others. I think as long as you are seeing yourself as a victim and only a victim and you're putting yourself in that box or you're putting yourself in a box of just simply being a survivor when you make it too simple. But it's on the more negative side, you will struggle more significantly to improve or to get healthy again if you remove that and you allow yourself to see that. Yes, this happened to me. It does not define me. It is not happening again to me right now. And so I have today to make different choices and to make a different life for myself when you start that process. And you're open to it and you're willing to add a different adjective to your character or your identity that's not victim. And that's not simply Survivor. You open yourself to such a wide range of choices. And I think people, and it's scary. It's also, I mean, because in a sense you're shedding that, that old identity and that can be very scary for people to do because that's all you've known. That's all you in that sense of survival. That's all you've had to cling to, to just make it from day to day. But when we're willing and I'm not saying this is an overnight process or it's like a statement you make one minute and you're like at 12 o'clock, I'm no longer a survivor. 12 01. I'm moving forward with my life. This is something that happens over a year. Exactly. Exactly. Uh, there's no, there's no magic timeline and that, I think that is something that's most difficult for people to know that. And some people can do this on their own. I mean, I did not, I've been trained as a therapist. I did not go through therapy myself. And so in that sense, it took me many, many more years than it could have and I completely acknowledge that. But it was really my pride that was not willing to, I was not willing to humble myself. And so now that's what makes it so much more profound when people are willing to humble themselves to me because I'm like, wow, these people are superheroes like they are doing something that I was not even willing to do or that I could not bring myself to do. That's amazing. Yeah. So I think, I think healing is possible, moving forward is possible. It's extremely difficult work and it has to start with a decision to put 1 ft in front of the other and having a willingness to walk away from a past identity and find and forge a new one. Honestly, you have to forge a new one and realize that. I mean, I think you're a great person. I think you're a wonderful man and I would tell everyone. Oh, yeah, he's one of the best men I know. Like you guys really get to know Joey. Like he's so great. Like, but if I was to learn something about you at this point in time about your past that I didn't know it could be something that you did. That was terrible. It could be something that was terrible that happened to you. It could be something that was great. All I'm doing is learning new information about you. It doesn't change who you are, doesn't change what I think of you. I'm simply learning new information that I didn't have, but that goes into who you are today, but it's not you. It's something about you, but it's not you. And that's an extremely difficult thing to move forward from and, and, and I'm saying that from experience is that for a long time, I mean, I thought of myself as you know, I'm going to be in this box. I'm not, there's nothing I can do about it. And then I realized that I'm focusing on the wrong thing. Like, yes, this something happened to me, it was difficult, but there's so many other things in the world that I could do. I could choose, choose to go bowling to take bowling lessons and become a better bowler like something so simple, but it would help me improve myself and it would give me hope that I can get better. Like it doesn't have to start out with, with your emotional or psychological health. It could start off with something as simple as trying a new skill and just seeing yourself get better and seeing yourself dedicate that time. You're again, you're telling yourself that you're worth it. You're telling yourself that you can improve. You're telling yourself there is hope for something to get better and that you can take a pile of nothing or a pile of not so great things for not wanting to use other terms. But you're telling yourself that you, you can make yourself clean again, you can and if not, and if not clean again, you can tie dye yourself to be different and present. You know, you become renewed in that sense. And so in that sense, you are still cleaning for a bit. So, but it is tough. I won't lie. It is extremely difficult and it takes time and I think that's why most people don't do it. It's like those barriers that prevent them from doing it. But no, I've been through the therapy actually. And it is very helpful and I had worked through a lot of it on my own or with different therapists, not using that model. but going through it is very, very helpful. It opened my eyes to things that I never even saw that were there the whole time. And I was like, wow, that's like affecting me on a daily basis. But yeah, it's crazy how we kind of continue living out those stories even though they are years in the past. But like they feel in the moment like they're present, it's wild and so super, super helpful. I, I love how you mentioned like the whole victim mentality because that's something that's such a hot topic right now. And I think there's an important distinction that I just wanted to mention for everyone. There are like real victims. And I know you would agree with this victims of, you know, circumstances like they're in a situation and they're victimized and that's horrible and they deserve help. And there's a reason that they feel victimized. There's a reason that they are a victim and you know, you need to move through that and you need to grieve you need to do all that stuff, but you're not meant to remain a victim. And that's what I think is so toxic and so harmful in our culture right now. Is that so many people? I think all of us in one degree or another fall into this choose to remain victims. We choose to put ourselves in that box and then therefore we feel stuck, we can't heal, we can't grow or we feel we can't heal. We feel we can't grow and we're like unable to everything. We feel powerless. We maybe point at other people for our problems. And by definition, then if we're pointing at them for our problems, they must have the solution or so we think therefore, I can't do anything myself. And so one of the things I challenge the young people I mentor is OK, you might not have caused the problem, but you can take ownership of the solution and you can implement that in your life and you can grow beyond this. And so that whole idea of post traumatic growth is so real. And I've seen it like I'm preparing to talk right now on this topic and it's not fully ready. So I won't give you guys it. But there's insane stories of people. There's this one marine who um learned his story and he, I think Rob Jones is his name. If I'm getting that right. He fought in Afghanistan and Iraq and he was an expert at spotting roadside bombs, IE Ds and while he was sweeping for bombs at one point so his teams could like move through. Um he stepped on a bomb and it went off and he lost both his legs like he had to get him amputated above his knees. And for most people, like, you know, rightly so that is traumatizing. He is very much so a victim, but he just refused to remain a victim. And so what he did is he got into like the Paralympic Games and got like a bronze medal on the world stage. He was the first double amputee to ride across the country on a bike. He went through if I'm getting the numbers, right. He ran 31 marathons in 31 days in 31 different cities. Like it's profound. So I think people like that. It's incredible to look at and see, wow, maybe you don't need to go run 31 marathons without any legs. It's amazing. But certainly you can, you know, do other things that are going to help you to heal and to grow and to kind of push through that. So it's, it's amazing to see that, you know, we don't have to remain victims and maybe we were victims, but we don't have to remain victims. I would add one more thing to that. So when I also say victim, being a victim can be a state of fact, right? Maintaining a victim mentality is what is so harmful. If we think of Max Milling Colby, he was a victim. He certainly did not have a victim mentality. He maintained his ability to serve others and not despair. He could have chosen differently, but he didn't, but he was a victim. But he did not maintain the victim mentality. And the victim mentality is when you combine the two of them, that is what becomes so harmful. That makes sense. And the story we're talking about Max Mill and Kobe, the quick version is he was a Polish priest who was locked up in a Nazi concentration camp in Auschwitz. And one night, some prisoners escaped. And the Nazis being who they were chose to I think kill 10 men if I'm remembering the story right, randomly as a punishment for those men escaping. And there was one man uh French France, Francis guy, I think his name. And anyway, he had a family, he had a wife, he had Children and he was just like broke down crying that he was going to be killed. And so Maxim and Kobe, this priest who again, very much so a victim by circumstance, he actually stepped out of line, which in itself was just like incredibly brave thing to do because they could have just killed him on the spot. He stepped out of line to offer his life in exchange. And the Nazi officers were so shocked by this that they actually honored his wish they didn't kill the guy who they could have, they could have just said, oh, you want to die? Ok, great. We're gonna do 11 instead of 10. Um They actually allowed that other man to not be killed and he actually got out of the concentration camp years later and was able to reunite with his family on some level. And um and then Max Million was killed. And so it's a profound story of like going rising above that, you know, victim circumstance and escaping and overcoming the victim mentality. So it's a beautiful story as well. Patty, thank you so much for coming on the show. I want to do this. Yeah. And it's been a long time coming and I want to give you the final word. What words of encouragement would you give to someone who, who feels broken, who feels stuck in life because of everything they've been through, especially if their parents got divorced or there's slaughter dysfunction at home, what encouragement would you give them? And the task is not knowing what to say. It's annoying. Which one you know to go go to. I would say you, you are worth it. So the boundaries that you want to set up for yourself, your healthy boundaries with your parents, with your family, they are worth it and they do need to be protected. And in the sense that I say that I very early on told my parents that I was not to be a go between that I was not going to say, oh, tell them this or tell them they owe me this or bring them this paperwork. Shutting that down. You are worth that as difficult as it is to tell that to a parent, you are worth it and you will be better for doing it, not allowing your parent to or both of them could be one could be both to not talk negatively about the other one in your presence, whether it's directly to you or to one of their friends or to a stranger, putting your foot down for those things because you don't want that to happen. You are worth it. So those healthy, healthy boundaries for you to have put your foot down as strong as you can and, and voice, you don't even have to voice your concern. You just say no, you need to stop doing this because it's not OK. I will not allow it. You are worth it. So many great lessons from Patty's expertise in her story. And if you'd like to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. There's three easy steps to do that. But first, some of the benefits of sharing your story, reflecting on your story is actually healing on a neural biological level. It makes your brain healthier and writing your story also is healing studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed, less anxious, healthier. And also it gives guidance and hope to people who are struggling too. So how do you do? It? Just go to restored ministry dot com slash story. There's a form on that page that guide you in telling a short version of your story and then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous blog article. And so go ahead and share your story now at restored ministry dot com slash story, as discussed in the interview, one tactic to heal is actually find someone who can guide you. That's where a counselor coach or spiritual director can come in. But often it's difficult and time consuming to find someone like that. Thankfully, at Restored, we're building a network of counselors and coaches and spiritual directors that we vet that we trust that we recommend. And by using our network, it's just going to save you a lot of time and effort in searching for a counselor coach or spiritual director. You also find a competent professional that we, again, we've vetted, we trust and recommend. And so how do you make use of that? Just go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching. Fill out the form. It should take about 60 seconds and then we'll contact you once we find a counselor coach or spiritual director, uh, that we recommend at the moment we're still building this list. Uh So if you want to jump on the waitlist, I invite you to go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching. But you might be listening to this at a later date and so it might be fully ready at that point again, go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching or just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them seriously, It takes about 30 seconds to just message them this episode or another episode that you think would be helpful for them. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of CS Lewis who said you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.
