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#097: 3 Tips to Help Someone from a Divorced or Broken Family

Are you worried about someone you love or lead from a divorced or broken family? Do you want to help them, but feel unequipped and somewhat helpless? In this episode, you’ll learn 3 tips to help them.

Are you worried about someone you love or lead from a divorced or broken family? Do you want to help them, but feel unequipped and somewhat helpless?

In this episode, you’ll learn 3 tips to help them and a NEW resource on how to help someone from a divorced or broken family, so you can do and say the right things, avoid the wrong ones, and offer real help.

Get Real Help Course


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Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

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#096: How to Heal from the Trauma of Your Parents’ Divorce or Broken Family | Margaret Vasquez

If you come from a broken family, did your parents’ divorce or family dysfunction bring emotional problems, bad habits, and relationship struggles into your life?

If you come from a broken family, did your parents’ divorce or family dysfunction bring emotional problems, bad habits, and relationship struggles into your life? As a result, do you feel unsure how to heal and afraid that you’ll repeat the cycle?

In this episode, we unveil a NEW and FREE resource to help you heal from the trauma of your parents’ divorce or broken family, so you can break the cycle and build a better life. In doing so, we discuss:

  • What is trauma and how does it affect you?

  • Why is your parents’ divorce or family dysfunction the most impactful type of trauma?

  • How do you heal from it?


Get Broken to Whole Course

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

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#095: Healing Happens When We Ask for Help | Tanya Lyons

You feel broken. You want to heal. But you’re unwilling to ask for help.

You feel broken. You want to heal. But you’re unwilling to ask for help.

If that describes you, your ability to heal will be stifled. Nobody ever healed their broken leg without the help, knowledge, or experience of others. Healing only happens with the love and help of other people. 

In this episode, we discuss that and more as my guest shares :

  • How it took 20 years for her to pursue counseling, but how she found healing there

  • Why is it so difficult to talk about our parents’ divorce or broken family and what can we do about that?

  • Why taking risks feels extra scary for people like us and what to do if you feel that fear


Buy Tanya’s Book, Come Home Laughing

Join the Course Waitlist

Take the My Broken Family Assessment

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you feel broken and you want to heal, but you're unwilling to ask for help, your ability to heal will be greatly stifled. Imagine breaking your leg. Nobody ever healed their broken leg without the help, knowledge or experience of other people such as doctors, physical therapists, or even people who've broken their legs and learned how to heal and strengthen it. Healing only happens with the love and support of other people. And we discuss that and more in this episode as my guest shares how it took her 20 years to finally pursue counseling, but how she found healing there, we discuss why it's so difficult for people like us to talk about our parents, divorce or broken family. And what we can do about that. We also talk about how taking risks can feel extra scary for people like us and offer advice on what to do if you feel that fear and we hit on well, we want to rely on others and rely on God even in a healthy way to to heal us. But at the same time, we can expect them to do all the work for us. We have to put in the work ourselves. So, keep listening. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panelli. This is episode 95. If you found this podcast helpful in navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce and even finding healing. I'm thrilled to announce a new resource from restored. That'll help you even more. We'll be releasing two video courses. The first course is titled Broken to Whole Tactic to Heal From your parents', divorce or Broken Marriage. That course answers the questions. What is trauma, how does trauma in general but also the trauma of your parents', divorce or dysfunctional family affect? You begin to some of the signs of that even. It's really fascinating. What can you do to heal from it and even prevent yourself from being traumatized in the future and so much more. And that course is actually taught by a trauma therapist with over 15 years of experience healing people from their trauma. The second course is titled Real Help, a guide to Confidently help someone from a divorce or broken family. And that course answers the questions. What struggles do, Children of divorce or dysfunction typically face, what should you say, not say do and not do in order to help them. How do you start those difficult conversations? What should you do if they seem fine and some special tips for parents as well and so much more. And that course is actually taught by me. The content itself is actually based on a lot of research but also on a restored article that ranks top three on Google and receives over 3000 views a month. So stay tuned for the launch of each of those episodes that will be coming to you very soon. And if you'd like to join the waitlist to get notified first and be given special advanced access, just go to restored ministry dot com slash courses or just click on the link in the show notes. And when you do that, you'll get a bonus on building healthy relationships and a strong marriage. Again, go to restored ministry dot com slash courses or just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Tanya Lyons. Tanya grew up in a small town in western Canada. After high school, she joined an international organization, youth with a mission first as a volunteer and then as a staff member, her passion for a Christian discipleship and teaching has taken her to over 40 nations and given her the opportunity to live on three continents. In 2015, she graduated with a master's in Christian formation and discipleship as part of her degree, Tanya researched and wrote a book about the spiritual journey of adult Children of divorce called Come Home Laughing. Since then, she's written three other books and is working on her fifth, a book about getting married for the first time later in life, Tanya is a trained life coach. She enjoys drinking black coffee, geo cashing, swing dancing and discussing what she's reading. She lives in Glasgow Scotland with her husband Patrick and a quick disclaimer. Tanya is a Christian as you can tell. So we speak about God and about faith in the episode. But even if you don't believe in God, you're still going to get a lot out of this episode. And my challenge to you is this just listen with an open mind again. Even if you take the God parts out, you'll still benefit a lot. Here's my conversation with Tanya. Tanya. Welcome to the show. Hey, great to be here as we usually do. I'd like to just dive right in with the deep and heavy topics that we often talk about in the show. But I'm curious in your situation, how old were you when your parents separated and divorced? And what happened there? Yes. So I was 10 when my parents divorced. I really had no idea that they were having any difficulties in their marriage. I think I was just oblivious to it. And uh one day after school, my mom sat me and my brother down on the couch and just said your dad and I don't love each other anymore. And I'm gonna go stay with grandma. So she got her suitcase in the car and drove away and um we saw her later that weekend and found out there was actually more to the story than that. Ok, what led up to it like? So you said things at home were good or at least appeared to be fun from your perspective as a kid. Was there any insight into mom and dad are having problems or anything like that? You know, I don't remember as a kid at 10 years old knowing that there was anything. But later on they did refer that they had gone to counseling for a bit. But the, the part that was more to the story is that my mom was seeing somebody else found out later on that they had been having an affair and then maybe tried to stop and then continued on. So as I understand that was actually going on for a few years before the decision to for my mom to leave and the divorce to happen. Wow. Ok. I'm really sorry to hear that. That's devastating for everyone involved, especially the Children too. I think so often when there's an affair, we tend to think that, you know, obviously the spouse that was cheated on is very hurt and that makes sense. Um And they need, you know, the love and support and healing, of course too. But the Children in a very real way were cheated on too. And so, um so yeah, that's really rough to go through and I'm curious, um, you know, how did all of that, how did your parents divorce that affair even affect you? Especially in your future relationships? I mean, isn't that the greatest question to ask? And it's so hard to sort of finally make sense of it, you know. And, um, but I think the short answer is it just made me afraid to trust people and it made me question my own worth was I worthy of love? Would people stick around for me? I think I really adopted the, the view that all relationships were temporary friendships, romantic. It didn't matter what it was, but that it was more of a when they're gonna leave me not, are they gonna leave me? I ended up very, is isolating myself basically as self protection trying to keep from getting hurt potentially. And even though of course, I really wanted love and connection, but I did not know how, how to build those healthy relationships. So it really kind of got me stuck in a really a painful cycle of wanting something but not being able to, to build those friendships or relationships. I totally follow you there. And I think those of us who come from broken families who are listening right now can totally relate. I know for me, I have the desire to build, you know, healthy relationships, good friendships even and especially a good future marriage. And, uh, like you said, I just felt totally lost. I had no idea how to do that. And I was just filled with a ton of anxiety like you said, a lot of fear that gosh, am I going to repeat my parents' mistakes? Am I going to just end up going through a divorce one day like they did? And I knew with everything inside of me that I didn't want that because I saw how painful it was for them. But I also experienced that pain myself, you know, going through their parents divorce as, you know, an 11 year old boy. And so, um, so I totally can relate with you on that. And I think for many years and the idea of marriage was just so unappealing to me because it just had such a negative connotation. I was quite bitter about marriage and thought it's just a, a bad idea and I couldn't really see any beauty in it or any, you know, way that it would possibly benefit me. So that was confusing too because I thought, well, then what is life about if it's not about family and if it's not about connection, if it's not about belonging? So I think it was quite painful and, and very disorienting as a kid at that age. Yeah, I remember thinking to, like you said, I, you know, if this is where marriage leads, I want nothing to do with it. And I even, you know, silently swore to myself that I will never get married after that whole experience. And thankfully found a lot of healing and overcame that, that lie that, you know, you're kind of doomed to repeat the cycle. But certainly it's, it's scary. And my opinion, you know, there's obviously decreasing marriage rates today in our world, people are getting married less and less and some people point to different factors. But I, I think that broken families and going through your parents' divorce at the core of it. I, I think obviously there is that fear of commitment that everyone always talks about and, you know, younger generations. But what I've seen is that they're not so much afraid of commitment, they're afraid of, like we're talking about repeating that cycle of dysfunction, repeating what they saw in their parents' marriage or perhaps the marriages around them. And so it makes so much sense that they would then, you know, try other things like, you know, having some sort of committed relationship as opposed to a marriage. Um, it, it, but it's sad to see and I think that's, uh underneath this whole crisis that we have where we're just giving up on love and on marriage altogether. Yeah, I think there's two layers to it that I've seen in my life is one I don't think I'm capable or I wonder, am I capable of actually doing something that I've never seen? Like being committed, being faithful, truly having a love that lasts for my whole lifetime, decades and decades and then there's the fear of, or the question, would anybody want me, you know, am I too broken or too complicated or, or just not valuable enough that anyone would want to give that to me? So, it's both ways it's, can I give that to somebody and would somebody ever want to, or choose to give that to me? So, yeah, it's kind of two problems at the same time. It seems like. Yeah. No, I like the way you said that I remember, I think it was in college. I was able to put words to this feeling I had that you just mentioned the second part. At least that I felt like a gift that wasn't worth giving. And I felt like if I were to, you know, give myself to someone that eventually they would just give up on me and leave because they would realize like, oh you're really broken or oh, you, you know, you're not worth loving. And so I totally feel that felt that fear and I think so many people who've been through what we've been through, experience that as well. Yeah. And I think for me, there was definitely the sense of like a disillusionment about the word love as well. You know, hearing my parents say, oh, we love you, Tanya and we want what's best for you. But then feeling like this doesn't feel like love, this feels terrible. What, what's happened to me what's happened to our family feels the exact opposite of love. And so I remember in different relationships that I had that didn't go anywhere if the guy would ever start talking about love. I'd be like, don't even say love. I don't even want to hear that. That is not even in my vocabulary. It was just such a, just a reflection of, of how I felt and what I'd experienced. And yeah, it's quite, it's quite sad when I look back at the younger me who, but understandably who really felt like love is such a, a terrible thing and a fickle thing. Yeah. I couldn't agree more with you and I totally get where you're coming from, shifting to healing and growth. I'm curious, what were a few things that really helped you to, to heal and to cope with the pain that you have endured? I mean, the first one that comes to mind is counseling, but I was probably 30 before. I was really, really willing to talk about my experience and the painful parts of it. Um, before that I was just so nonchalant about. Yeah. Yeah. My parents divorced. Yeah. Yeah. This is the thing. Yeah. Yeah. Really kind of just trying to build those walls and keep, keep it distant from myself. So, yeah, when I think I was around 30 31 when I started to go to counseling and it was such a healthy, wonderful gift to finally have a place where I could tell somebody how I really felt without trying to downplay it or protect my parents or kind of feel ashamed of, of my story, but I could just lay it all out. It was incredibly healing. And so that was a huge, a huge step for me. And another thing that I found really helpful even before that, but looking back, I see how helpful it was, was being able to spend some time with healthy families. So I had one work colleague in particular who him and his wife, sort of just they weren't that much older than me, but they had a bunch of kids and kind of an open door policy in their home and they just let me be part of their life, whether it was grocery shopping, cooking, um hanging out on a Saturday. And so just, and if I was soaking it up watching how they dealt with their kids, how they treated each other. And that was a super healing uh restorative experience for me. So I still love hanging out with, with families and kids and kind of, I still am learning about what does it look like to really love your spouse and love your kids and love your parents from them. Beautiful. I love both those things and I found them helpful as well. And it's so interesting in the 90 plus interviews that we've done in this show at this point. Uh That's such a clear trend that spending time with healthy marriages and families is incredibly healing. Mhm. Yeah. And to me it just thinks what a gift it is if you have healthy marriage and family to, to open your home to people, um who you might think we don't have anything to show them. We're not the experts but man, what a gift it is to have that healthy, healthy family and marriage is not perfect but one that, that really is built on love and caring for one another. Yeah, I totally agree. It's a good challenge to everyone listening right now. Who has, you know, a good marriage, a healthy marriage, not a perfect one. Uh You can be such an inspiration, such a help to those of us who, you know, find that whole idea and that whole experience so foreign to us, it can truly be a training in how to love. It can be a school of love which which we greatly need if we want to go on and break that cycle and build those healthy relationships and hopefully a strong marriage in the future. Uh One thing that you've mentioned as well is that you found your relationship with God, incredibly healing. So I wanted to talk a little bit about that. How has that been healing for you? And what in particular have you done to find healing through that relationship? Yeah. Thanks for that. For sure. I didn't come to any faith. Until I was a late teenager. So for, you know, almost eight years, Paul following my parents um divorce, I didn't have any kind of faith connection or any relationship with God. And uh looking back, I can see how my coming to faith really brought this whole sense of connection and belonging that I'm not alone anymore that even though my parents don't understand or my friends might not understand, my sibling doesn't understand. At least God understands me. And that I think it was incredibly healing for me, just this awareness that I'm not alone. And then over the years, I think, you know, learning how to connect with God through prayer, through meditation and just the sense that I don't have to pretend with God. God's the one person that I can truly be open and honest with about every area of my life, whatever I'm struggling with, whatever I'm proud of or what I'm ashamed of that I don't have to hide myself from God. And that a sense of unconditional love and acceptance has been uh such a healing thing though. It didn't just happen overnight and it is still a process for me to really remind myself that I am loved by God. I am seen by him. So I think that was kind of maybe the slow burn of of healing has come through that being able to look to, to God for the love that I really need and long for beautiful And no, I could totally see how that is so healing and I love the word you use pretending. It's so interesting. I think so often that really describes the experience of a lot of young people who come from divorce or broken families is that we do feel the need to pretend in one way or another. Like we all often have these like almost multiple identities where we're one way with mom and one way with dad and maybe one way with relatives and one way with friends and it can be a lot to carry. And so uh talk about that a little bit more. What have you seen in your own life and the lives of people, you know, who've, you know, gone through this experience when it comes to pretending and then, you know, on the opposite end of that is like you said, being that like genuine, authentic self. Yeah, I mean, I think it is such an interesting dynamic that has I can see in my life and others is that you learn from a young age, I learned from a young age that rules were different at mom's house and dad's house expectations were different. I think many Children of divorced and separated parents would kind of become the caretaker for our parents or our siblings were kind of trying to think for me, it came from a fear of like if I don't keep them happy, they will leave me as well, I wouldn't have said it that way. But really, that's what my motivation was as a young girl. And so always trying to, to think ahead, what do they need? What do they want? How do I keep them happy? Never being able to relax into a situation. Never being able to be honest about what I was happy about or angry about or sad about what I needed. Always putting other people first. So that habits and that patterns, you know, it makes you a good friend. It makes you a good child because you're always easy to please. And you're always working really hard to keep other people happy. But it, it meant that I, nobody ever knew all of me. That's how I felt that I was, there was parts of me that were just unknown and un valued or un cared for. So mom saw certain things, dad saw certain things, grandma saw certain things, my teacher saw certain things my friend. But I guess I was afraid that if I revealed too much that I would be rejected. So I think that the kids from divorced families, we can be the chameleon. And the again, which maybe at the time, you just think this is what everybody does. But then later on, at least for me, I realized this is incredibly lonely and it's hard work. It's very stressful to always be trying to figure out what people want and be that person instead of simply being totally, it's exhausting like he said and, and that's what I experienced 100%. And yeah, needing to play all those different roles is so real. I um I've seen two trends in people like us who uh we, we've kind of become rescuers in a lot of senses, maybe not always, but I've seen it to be more likely in people like us. And underneath that I think is almost like a cry for help, like we want someone to rescue us. And so in a way, we're like trying to rescue everyone else. And uh and so I think it is really beautiful and helpful when you can make that switch to realize like it's not a bad thing to help other people. We're obviously not their savior. We can't like, you know, solve all their problems, take away all their pain, but it's not a bad thing to love and help people with healthy boundaries. Um But at the same time, if we continually ignore our own need for, for healing, for, you know, someone to, to help us to in a way rescue us without doing everything for us, which we'll touch on a little bit later. There, there can be so much growth, there can be so much healing when we just, you know, acknowledge that and seek out the right resources to, to heal. Yeah. And I think um for me, if the faith thing has been so helpful because it was finally one place where I could actually come as I am. I don't have to pretend because God knows it all like he knows everything about me every part of my life. So I didn't have to though there were many times I think where I did approach faith the same way I approached my other relationships, trying to imagine what God wanted me to do what the right answer was, what the acceptable thing was. But over the years, I have become more comfortable with letting him rescue me, you know, whatever that means, whether that's just giving me the, the love and affection I need or the support I need the emotional encouragement I need and all kinds of other, other parts of daily life. Yeah. That makes so much sense. Are there any um maybe practical examples, especially for people listening right now who don't believe in God or don't have any sort of faith? I'm just curious, like, how have you experienced that? Maybe in the last few months or last year, whatever time frame where it's been maybe a little bit more like, you know, you, you, you see God's hand in it, but it's not like this big booming voice from our love. Um Because I think that's sometimes what people imagine when they think of like God expressing its love for us is that we think it's like, you know, again, this miraculous experience, but so often what I've learned is it can be in the really simple, ordinary, everyday things that you can see, you can see as end. Yeah, I think, oh, my husband and I bought a house recently and, um, that was really as a first time thing for me. I've moved 20 times in my adult life, a very transient life style. And so this was a whole new idea. Marriage is brand new. But then also thinking of buying a home and when we, we put on offers and houses, they weren't accepted, we looked at places um and continue to pray that God would help us find a home and take care of us. And uh one particular time we had to move out of one place and into a new place and we tried to find a place to move into. We just could not find a rental place or anything and then just got a, a text out of the blue one day from a a friend saying, hey, are you guys looking for a place to stay? Because our tenants just moved out and we need some money to move into our place. And anyways, we ended up moving in like two days after their tenants moved out, it worked out completely like we had planned it though. We had not planned it. And, and to me, that was an example of God being like a father to me or a parent to me and caring for me doing something that I just could not figure out on my own even though I'm a fully grown person and I'm competent in every, in so many areas of life. But just seem like, uh, I couldn't sort it out without God without help and God took care of me and took care of me and my husband. So I don't know if that's what you're looking for, but that, to me is such an encouragement. Um, that I'm not alone in life, even in really practical things that have nothing to do with divorce just day to day living. No, no, I think that's beautiful. I love when like, faith has been more practical and I think it's a great example of it. And um, you know, there's, I think there's so many examples, but one of the ways that I've kind of seen God in my own life, at least the way he communicates to me is often through my desires. Like, like I have a desire to like, help someone to reach out to someone or, or do something like this whole nonprofit is an example of it. Like I took, you know, time to discern and think through like, is this actually what I'm supposed to do what God wants me to do? And it got, you know, the green light. And so, um but he really placed a heart desire in my heart to, to help people who come from towards and broken families. Um so he speaks to me through my desires, speaks to me through other people. Probably the most often, like someone will say something, especially if I'm struggling in some area, you know, a friend or one of my mentors will say something. It's like, dang, like that's exactly what I need to hear. And I don't even think you realized that's exactly what I need to hear. Um And then finally realizations, I don't know if that's the best word to use, but things will just kind of click or, you know, I thought will come to mind from like nowhere. And I'll be like, wow, OK, that's like kind of a key to whatever problem I'm facing or shuffle or whatever. And so um to people, I think um who yeah, maybe are foreign to this idea of like prayer, talking to God and things like that. Um A lot of these things can seem like coincidences and that's fair to think that. But I think when you see so many of these things happening again and again throughout your life, you start to realize like, really like, is this, is this really a coincidence? So, um so a lot of beauty there and kind of going back to this whole faith aspect of healing. So, you know, like you said that um desire to belong so often we feel that we don't belong because our family fell apart and we don't belong in our own families, like where in the world are we going to belong if we don't belong there? And so, um, so I want to go deeper on that topic. But before I do any final thoughts, well, when you're talking about the way that you, you know, coincidences or things that just become clear to you, I find God often or I, I find a lot of what would you say, Victor watching TV, where I'm seeing characters interact and I'm thinking, oh, that's like I see a parent being kind to a child or I see a friend showing compassion to someone and it really becomes sort of like a spiritual experience for me where I think that is what love looks like. That is how I can be loving to people in my life or, or while that person actually was loving to me, it helps me reinterpret my life sometimes through giving me some more examples of, of what healthy relationships look like or, or just sometimes, you know, you're like, I can relate to that character and they've taken a risk. So I'm gonna take a risk. So somehow. Um yeah, just I think there are lots of connections in daily life if you have the eyes to see them um where it might be some type of faith and a spiritual connection. So, yeah, I'm not sure that's really coming through the way, but nevertheless, there you have it. Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes sense. And I appreciate you sharing that. Um aside from your own story, what have you seen that helps people like us who come from doors or broken families to heal from the trauma we've endured in our personal lives and in our relationships, I think for sure, the relational connection with people where it's not like when people are open and honest with me about whatever area they do not have to be from a divorced or separated family. But when they're honest about their struggles, whether it's with finances or their relationships or their kids or their work or their studies or something, when people are open about what they're going through, then I feel such a sense of relief like, oh, they don't have everything together. So that gives me permission to then be open and honest about my struggles. And so so when friends or groups of people can be honest about their struggles, I just think it, it opens the door for deeper connection, which is what, what everybody longs for. So I think that that's kind of a very general but very helpful um, thing that I've seen is it gives people courage to then go, ok. I could talk about my stuff if they can talk about their stuff as well. Yeah, it's so refreshing when people just speak in like a real way. You know, this whole idea of real talk. It's like so so popular now, especially with these different podcasts like Joe Rogan, whether you love him or hate him. Uh, it's so, it's so interesting to listen because, you know, we're talking about, like, real topics and real issues and real problems that people face in a way that's like unfiltered, which is like you said, it's very refreshing. Yeah. You had mentioned before to how, you know, faith had played such a big role in your own healing. I'm curious, you know, how have you seen that happened in the lives of the people that you've led or walked with, who come from divorce or broken families? Yeah, I mean, what I love about faith and people's faith journey is no, no, too identical. And so what might really have been really healing to me does nothing for somebody else but vice versa. And so I love seeing other people, the things that stand out to them or not. But I think to summarize, I think the community aspect of faith uh is huge for many people. Um The sense of belonging so often the kids of divorce or separated parents, we don't have anywhere to go for the holidays. We don't have anybody who celebrates our life accomplishments with us. We don't have anywhere to go on summer holidays or we don't. Yeah, we kind of feel like we might be missing out on a lot of things that other people just take for granted. And so I've seen faith communities be a real place of, of input and service for, for Children from divorced separated families because it's a sense of you're one of us. You belong here, you have something to offer as well as something to receive. And I think I've seen a lot of people really flourish as they find a place of giving. So maybe a guy or gal gets to work with the kids club and all of a sudden the little kids are just mobbing them and loving on them and all of a sudden they're like, people wanna be around me and there's so much energy that comes from that or somebody goes, wow, I can fix the computers for the, the seniors in my, my community or my church. And all of a sudden they have something to offer and they have these sort of grandparent figures. And so this idea of like as we give to others, we receive so much, I think it can be so healing and, and a big part of what family can offer us, but that we might have missed out on if we, if we didn't have that beautiful. And I, I think there's a great lesson in that, that I'm learning from you. And that is um if you want those healthy, beautiful relationships, if you wanna find great friends, you have to be that for other people, you have to be that great friend. And it's something I think that we're always working on, we can improve upon always. But um but I think, yeah, like you said it almost begins to attract people to you. When you start to be that great friend, start to give, start to love, start to, you know, be selfless, like put other people's needs above your own. Of course, assuming in a healthy way with healthy boundaries. But um but I think there's a powerful lesson in that. Mhm And it is so affirming to realize that that you or that I have something to offer. And um I think for many years, I was so insecure and so afraid to take any risks of offering something because if I offer a bit of myself, even, it's just a pie that I baked or an idea for a conversation that I would get rejected. And I was so afraid of that, that I just, I never offered anything. So it took me a long time. Um And a lot of people inviting me in and asking me and saying, hey, Tanya, do you want to cook a pie for this? Do you wanna uh help do this project? Do you want to come to our party? Do you want to? So that invitation has been such a helpful thing for me in my healing journey. Just this idea that other people think I have something to offer. That was a foreign idea to me for so long. So I think I've, I've learned from that and it's benefited me so much and I try to operate that way as well. To really have an open, I don't know, an open mindset where there's always room for more people and it can be challenging at time because it's fun to hang out with people that I know and love. It's fun to, you know, have these tight friendships. But, but I think my experience of rejection and abandonment and isolation and stuff from my family has given me eyes to see people who might be on the fringes or on the outside or, or not like the coolest or most popular and to go, they're just as worthy of being included as anybody. And I wanna actually find ways to, to include them. Yeah, that makes so much sense. And I, I think it's a good place to start if you know, people are especially struggling socially and, and that's a common struggle as you know, for people like us who come from doors or broken families. And, um, and I've seen people make incredible ways and like grow a ton in that area, but a good place to start if you're kind of at the beginning of that journey is, um with those people, like you said, who may be a little bit more on the fringes or rejected or not as popular or cool or good looking or whatever, that can be a great place to start to build those friendships and of course, love them throughout. But I think that may feel a little bit safer as well. And I like what you touched on too. How there is this risk factor when we love, when we put ourselves out there, when we give that we might be misunderstood, or people might reject us in a sense. And I think it's important to acknowledge that. I know I've mentored young people who, you know, have experienced that sort of rejection where it's like, you know, they're trying to love, they're trying to be a great friend in a relationship and then they're misunderstood by a friend, they're rejected by someone they wanted to, you know, date or be with. And so it can be really challenging. But I think there's something so powerful and just that action of taking the risk. I think that makes you a better, stronger, more virtuous person. Um And in the end, in the moment, it's really painful and can feel debilitating. But in the end, I think you're going to become this again, better, stronger person. So, yeah, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that risk factor and kind of putting your neck out there and opening yourself up to potentially being rejected in, in smaller, perhaps pick ways. Well, as we're talking, one thing that stood out to me was just, I, I think it's pretty common for those of us who are divorced, separated families to kind of try to make things like black and white all or nothing. So this person is good, this person is bad this relationship is gonna be the one that I'm looking for or this one is gonna be terrible and sort of the idea of extreme thinking, like, and I, I can relate to that. I, I think it comes from sort of self protection, definitely from a self protection. So I wanna see if there's a problem before it ever becomes a problem so I can reject it and run away and stay safe. But what that means is that I become so afraid of anything that might be a danger that I never even let myself take a tiny risk, whether that's a job interview or someone that I wanna date back when I was single or, or just a friendship that I wanted to pursue or I mean, it's so many different categories. So it's been helpful for me to, to try to think, ok, can I instead of seeing everything is all good or all bad to try to see more nuance in that and to go? Ok, what's a, what's an appropriate risk to take in this situation instead of seeing risk is bad and dangerous and comfort as like the final goal or, you know, certainty as the final goal to go. What's a small step that I could take? What's a small risk that might help me to build that, that strength and that courage that you mentioned. And um and what's an appropriate amount of vulnerability to share? Because I think uh once I started trying to, once I started becoming more aware of my emotions and, and understanding that like, healthy relationships do involve emotional vulnerability. I was just so inexperienced that I just shared everything I would just like lay it all out there and overwhelm people with either my, my hopes and my expectations or my fears and it kind of freaked people out because I was really trying to give them all of me. Like I want to show you everything about me so that if you're gonna reject me, you'll do it now. And like it was just out of step with what a healthy relationship is or how relationships develop a little bit at a time. So, so I think I see a connection there. I don't know. What do you think? Yeah. No. Excellent points. And I totally agree with you that just touching on the last point, there is a temptation, right? When we're learning to kind of go from this place of just like sharing nothing to then share everything. And like you said, it can be overwhelming for the people in our lives who are, who do generally want to love us. But like you said, when something you know, is healthy, it grows gradually, like if you think of plants and trees and grass, like whatever, they usually don't just sprout up overnight. There's some exceptions to this. But um, it usually takes time, like, you know, hours, weeks, months, years, even for something to grow to blossom into its full potential. And so in the same way, like you're saying, relationships are like that. And so it's important that we kind of go at that slow rate. And I've seen this especially in romantic relationships for people like us is that we, you know, I tend to kind of jump in like head first where it's like, well, you know, I wanna, I really am attracted to you. I want to be with you. And so I'm just gonna give you everything and tell you everything and um it creates this really, it can create a really unhealthy dynamic in the relationship. Whereas if you kind of graduate the girl, like you said, there can be so much more peace, so much more joy and such a healthier dynamic in their relationship. And so such a great point there. I wanted to touch on one other thing you said too that we can become so obsessed with building this safe world where the small safe world where we control everything, where we mitigate all risk, where we're in no danger of hurt or harm that it just like destroys us. Like, like it makes our hearts hard like CS Lewis, you know, in that famous quote, um He, you know, he says to love it all is to be vulnerable. Like we cannot protect ourselves from being hurt from being harmed. The only place we can is really heaven or hell you know, and so in this, in this world, we're going to be hurt, we're going to be harmed and it's actually more dangerous to kind of put ourselves out of that possibility than it is to allow that to happen potentially. And so I've seen that too in my own life, like thinking back how, you know, I keep maybe my group of friends really small or keep the interactions I had like with different people really, really small. So again, I had, I built this like small world that I controlled, that was felt at least, um and going beyond that felt really overwhelming and scary. But once I pushed through that, and I've seen this in a lot of the people that we mentor through this ministry. Once you push through that, it's scary and overwhelming at first. But, but you learn how to navigate it, you then feel so much more free that you then realize like it's so much better to, you know, maybe learn how to, like you said, in a healthy way, mitigate some horrible risk, but allow for those appropriate risks in relationships. And that will lead you to this place where again, you feel free, you're able to not try to control everything but let things happen and adapt as they do. And um it, it's, yeah, there's so much we can say here but that freedom uh that you experience when you push through that fear, through that overwhelm. Um is, is incredible. Mhm. I have a fantastic example about that in my own life where uh I was at a, a seminar for a month and uh one of my mentors pulled me aside one day and said, Tanya, I just want to ask you something that I've been noticing. I noticed that you're one of the very first people to leave at the end of the evening activities. And I'm just curious about that because I had to walk about 20 minutes back to the dormitory where I was staying. And at first I thought it was just no big deal. Like why does it matter who leaves when or whatever? But as I chewed on it a bit, I realized, and I said to her, I said, well, if I am in control of when I leave, then I'm also in control of who I walk with. And I don't have to fear being left behind. And so she encouraged me or she challenged me. OK, for the rest of their time here, would you be willing to try an experiment to not be the first person to leave to actually wait and see if you will be left behind or not. And it was a small risk because if I got left behind, it was fine. I just walk home 20 minutes by myself. This, I was already doing that anyway. So I was just doing it a little bit earlier in the evening. And so I thought, OK, I can do that. I will see if this fear of, of being left behind is an actual fear or if it's just a perceived fear, is it based in reality or is it just my own thinking? And that I'm convinced that nobody will look out for me or invite me or whatever. And so I took her challenge up and sure enough as she predicted, I never got left behind. I always had someone noticing. I was still there. Hey ta you're welcome back. Let's go together. And it, it, it brought freedom just like you were saying that that actually some of the things that I'm afraid are gonna happen to me are not actually reality. They probably won't happen to me. But even if they did, they're not that big of a deal. And I just, yeah, something really changed for me. Um As a result of that observation from my friend and her challenge and then my experiment with whether or not I'd be left behind. Love that and maybe that's a challenge we can issue to everyone listening right now is, you know, if there's a small risks that you can take that the consequence, if things do go wrong isn't huge, like take those risks. Um I love the, the word experiment that you use. I think that's so helpful because it's not permanent. It's not a life sentence. It's something that you can just try out and, and if it doesn't go well, go a different route. So great advice there elsewhere you said that there's, it's important that we don't look to God kind of going back to the faith question. It's important that we don't look to God to kind of do all the work for us that we need to, we need to be putting in the work ourselves. Talk about that a little bit. I mean, there, it would be a really, it could be a really great conversation. You know, what's God's responsibility? What's my responsibility? Is it all God's fault? Is it all my fault? But I think one thing that I realized growing up with divorced parents, I often felt powerless as a child. I had to go to moms when she wanted, go to dad's. I had to do this. I had to do that. I didn't have a voice. I felt like nobody really, my opinion didn't matter to anybody. Uh, my choices could be, you know, negated just, you know, very easily and, and I realized that for much of my faith life, I, I thought God had that same view that he was just gonna do things so do things for me. He was gonna heal me or he was gonna give me a job or he was gonna give me a spouse or he was gonna, and as a result, I just always, I felt like I had no say in my life, I was just being pulled around by God and his whims, you know, often they were good but sometimes they didn't feel good. And I didn't know that I actually had this idea of agency. Like I can make choices. I have strength and power within me that my voice matters. So I think, yeah, for me, at least as a child of divorce, it was a real important thing for me to learn that, that my ideas, even if they're wrong, like are worth being heard by God and other people that I don't always just have to have the right answer. But that, that I have choices and that my choices will be respected. So I think that's what I'm coming to with like the faith thing and the God thing is that, of course, God wants a beautiful life for every person, but he's not just gonna shazam, it's not just gonna appear without me participating with him because that would make me again, just sort of a pawn being moved around by him. And I think that God wants more than that, you know, he wants people who actually can make choices and who can learn and grow and that have, have responsibility for their life, you know, not on their own and not God saying ha ha you made a bad choice. Look at you suffer now, which also I think sometimes God gets that, that put on him, but that's not the way that I've experienced. God. It's a collaboration. It's something that, you know, I think any healthy relationship is that way, like whether it's a friendship or whether it's, um you know, a marriage, it truly is a collaboration. It's not one person doing it. It's not, it's both of you together. And I remember growing up, I would see relationships like that where one person was way more interested in the other person than, like a guy was more interested in a girl than the other way around. And it was like everything was on the guy to build a relationship and the girl was like almost doing nothing because she didn't really want to be with him. And so um so I think in this and yeah, the relationships can turn unhealthy in that sense. But you're saying that yeah, it's, it's a collaboration. It's both ways. It's two ways. It's both people contributing, collaborating and that applies to a relationship with God to I heard this awesome quote from uh the financial guru Dave Ramsey. He uh he said that God feeds the birds, but he doesn't throw the worms in the nest. I think that's so true and helpful. It's like, yeah, God will provide for you. But like you're saying, we need to collaborate with him. We need to work alongside of him. We can't just wait for him to, you know, snap his fingers and fix everything and miracles do happen. Like I don't, I want to acknowledge that but uh that's not the norm, that's not what I think most of us can expect. And so we do need to again do it alongside of him. And uh and I think there's a lot of beauty in that because like you said that, that uh agency, that sense of healthy control that we have and that is uh makes us better, makes us stronger. Definitely, so good shifting gears a little bit. Um It's often difficult for people like us to talk about our experiences with our parents, divorce or separation or just, you know, really broken dysfunctional marriage. Why is that? And what's the solution to that problem? That's a great question. But I think it is so true. I remember when I started really thinking about my parents' divorce, I was really eager to hear from other people about their experience. And I would, as soon as I kind of feel like the divorced and separated parents, kids were kind of like living incognito, we're kind of hiding it. We're kind of like trying to be below the radar. And I remember having realizing I had a roommate for a year whose parents were divorced, but we never once talked about our parents or our family. And it so yeah, I guess just to say, I think we the I I don't always know why. I mean, I think there's the shame of what's wrong with me. There's the what if people reject me or think I have a bad family or look down on my parents because why couldn't they keep their marriage together? I think there's a, the fears of, um, if I start talking about it, it's gonna be really painful and I'm gonna have to acknowledge some of that or people are gonna think I'm damaged somehow. So then nobody will want to date me or be my friend or, yeah, I mean, those are some of the things that come to mind and in terms of how do we fix it. I don't know. I just think those of us who feel the, the courage and the strength or maybe are further down the road of kind of processing our experience. I think we just got to be courageous and talk about it. That's why I'm so thrilled for this invitation to be on this podcast to just say I'm, I want to talk about my story if it can help other people. But also because it helps me every time I can talk about what happened, I'm gaining some new insight into what I've been through, how it shaped me uh for good and for bad. And I think it's taking me further out of this place of, of shame or fear and isolation into more connection, which is really what I long for. So, yeah, those are a few thoughts. Yeah, I, I've seen all of those play out in my own life and the lives of the people that we serve and I think a few other things too that we've seen is it's you touch on this, like how it can be painful to talk about this topic. And, uh, I think there is kind of related to that, this comfort in the sense that we're just so used to the pain and the problems in our lives that we don't really think anything of them. And so, you know, we tend to just think, well, this is the way it's always been. Why would I give it any special attention? Why I don't that this is kind of my normal. And so it, you know, it might never even hit us that, oh, maybe we should get some help here, maybe we should talk about this. And I think as a culture especially, I know you talk about this, we've, you know, normalized divorce to such an extent that we tend, we don't think of it as a trauma for the Children. We think of it as like, oh, well, it's just kind of the shift. It's like your family just changes. That's it. Um, even though the research is very clear and if you listen to people who come from divorce, separated families, it's like, no, this is a very traumatic thing to go through for the far majority of them. But, but again, there's just a sense of like, well, this is how my life has always been. Why would I give this any special attention. That's one point. The other one I think too is that we love and care about our parents. We don't want to hurt them or harm them. Um, especially if things are really dramatic going through the divorce. Um, things are really dramatic. Maybe in the aftermath of it, there's been maybe just a lot of pain. We don't want to rock the boat, we don't want to hurt them and we might even be led to believe by well intentioned people often well intentioned people that, um, we should be happy that this is for the best, like that sort of gas lighting where it's like, you know, oh, you feel hurt? Well, you shouldn't be hurt. Your parents are happy, aren't you happy for your parents sort of thing? It's like, no, I can, I can feel hurt by this and still, you know, want the best for my parents. And so, so, yeah, I think those are a few other factors as well that make us just kind of like, not talk about it. Not want to rock the boat. Mhm. Yeah. I definitely, I mean, I resonate with both of those, with the one about it's so normal for us. I can definitely see that in my life and see how I kind of just become calloused to, like I had to become callous or I felt I had to become callous to the pain and just be like, yeah. Yeah, it's just that it's not how it is because nothing was going to change. I had no power to change that part of my life. So it was either accepted or suffer. So I just, yeah, and I couldn't acknowledge that how painful it was. So I just was like, yeah, it's not a big deal but you know what's helped me part of my healing. And I think it was a counselor who suggested this to me is I was 10 when my parents split up and I, I stayed with my dad, but my counselor suggested I, I take note of 10 year olds in my life. Like, did I know any 10 year olds? What were 10 year olds actually? Like, what, what, what was their capacity emotionally, you know, with doing their homework or, or caring for themselves? They, you know, could they take a bath or do their laundry or like, what was a 10 year old actually capable of and to try to look at them through the eyes of, wow, what if your parents just split up and you had to now take care of yourself and you had to have this emotional, you know, this really difficult emotional struggle. And so I, I did, I started looking at little 10 year olds and thinking, oh, they're, they're so small and they're so cute and they're so incapable, you know, there's, they need so much help and they, for them to lose one parent or to have their, you know, their parents' marriage break up and to be alone or rejected, abandoned in the way that, that they would be, that I was, that would be so hard. And through that I found the ability to have compassion on myself actually. And to go what, what I've experienced, Tanya, what you experienced was really terrible. It was really worthy of grief and sadness and not just something to be brushed aside. And so, yeah, so that was a, that was a real turning point for me and, and my ability to have compassion on myself and to kind of like let myself feel some of those feelings and have some of that process, some of that experience. Yeah. And so you can move on. I think that's an important part too. It's like, especially for people listening who just maybe they want to like throw up when they hear all this like self help stuff of like self love and grief and all that stuff which I get. I I'm kind of like that in some ways. But, but I think that the point is that so we don't stay where we are, we don't stay stuck that we can move on through life that we're not, you know, constantly dealing with these things. I know divorce is such an interesting trauma though because there are usually continual effects and continual difficulties and challenges that come from it. For example, you know, maybe you know, the divorce itself and everything that led up to, it was painful. But then in the aftermath, like we talked about, you have to deal with, you know, mom and dad being at your graduation, different life events, holidays, like you mentioned, uh things like that or, you know, maybe a situation where further down the line, your parents get sick and then it's like instead of their spouse taking care of them, you're the one who needs to take care of them in, in, in exaggerated role, right? So, so there's all these sorts of additional challenges that do come through. But the point of healing is not to stay stuck forever. It's to move beyond those things. And these tools that we're mentioning, of course, are some of them can continue to help us grow and become better, stronger people. But um but I think it's important for people, especially who kind of like are repulsed by this idea of like healing and working through trauma. Um to know that there is an end game, there is something that we're working towards. And uh and I love that you mentioned that tactic about, you know, kind of looking at the 10 year old that, that makes so much sense and it is, is really helpful because I think when we can have compassion, it might be easier for us to have compassion on other people than it is to have compassion on ourselves. And um I think, yeah, to move forward. I think it is that healthy. Wow. I've been through, you've been through some hard stuff and you, you're doing really well to be able to also look at it that way and to really take stock of how much we have grown or, you know, and how far we have come and, um, that we can do this. So I think it's both a pep talk and like a little cry session sometimes and they go hand in hand because, you know, we've been damaged or hurt by our parents um marriage, but that's not the only thing about us. Um But to deny, that is also not helpful because then you're back to the hiding parts of yourself, denying who you really are just trying to show the good stuff so that people will love you and, and that ends up being quite lonely. It's been lonely for me. Yeah, me too. No, I, I couldn't agree more with that and, and I love that mindset of uh, we're just, we're in training, we're continually developing, we're kind of becoming people. We're becoming the people that we hopefully want to be, that we're made to be um through all these experiences in life, through the pain, through the traumas, through the, the incredible growth through the, you know, like you said, the trajectory that we can see ourselves on that, that is like really, really helpful and we're not the good, just the good. We're not just the bad. We're both. And, um, and I think if you can, you know, kind of see that and accept that in yourself, um, you're going to be a lot more at peace when things go really well or things go really poorly and so, so much good stuff there. I just, towards the end of our conversation, I'm just curious, you touched on this already actually a bit. But do you have anything else to add? You know, what are some ways that, that you've seen divorce affects the way that people like us view um, marriage, family, life, home, belonging in, in general anything dad. Oh, I mean so much. But I think, I think the first thing to acknowledge is that divorce has impacted all of those things. And for me, at least every one of those things you mentioned marriage, home, family, they are all I'm looking at all of them through the lens of what I experienced. And so for me, it's kind of looking back into the past trying to understand my story is so that I can clean those glasses off and I can see not just what the terrible things are but what the beauty could be. You know, like people, most people from intact families find most of them find family a very positive term. But for me, family is kind of, I cringe even though I know I'm not supposed to, I know family is supposed to be amazing. And everyone's supposed to want to love to get together. I, I still have so much like inner turmoil when I think about family because it just reminds me of what I don't have, what I've lost, who's not there, who doesn't get along and um but having recently gotten married, I, I am trying to, to, to reframe how I see family that it's not only negative. Same with marriage, same with belongings, same with all of those things. So yeah, I think for me it's been just to acknowledge my experience has shaped all of those things. And if I'm not thinking about them, then they're just, I'm carrying what's I'm carrying my old way of thinking with me and it might be damaging or getting in the way of me having the things that I want, the connection, the family, the belonging. So yeah, I think it's all interconnected, right? And those expectations are key like researchers show uh talk about how if you want a great marriage, for example, um healthy expectations uh for your marriage are really, really important. That's one of the ingredients and one of the keys to having a great marriage. And so like you're saying, if we expect our spouse to cheat on us, if we expect our marriage to be full of conflict and drama, if we expect um eventually to be abandoned, then we'll certainly act in a way that anticipates that happening, which in a sort of backwards way then plays a role in bringing that about. And so this is serious, like this is not some neat little thought experience like, no, this if, if you expect that if you ignore the patterns in your own life, if you act out of those, it can maybe even unconscious expectations that can then lead you down a path that you don't want to go down and even consciously don't want to go out and you say, I never want to repeat what I saw, you know, in my parents' marriage, I never want to get divorced. Um So we really do need to adjust those things and that's why this is so serious. It's not just some cute little self help thing. It's like, no, if we want to live the lives that we long for, if we want to have the relationships that we long for, um we, we really need to dig in here and at least be aware so that we can develop the virtues and, you know, kind of work against those maybe tendencies that we've had in the past to the point where we can overcome them and again, build those virtues that then make it possible to have that beautiful relationship to learn to truly trust and be vulnerable to, yeah, just live life fully alive, not always being terrified and afraid of what might happen next. And this is why I think friendships community are so vital to growth in the story. That I told you about my mentor, challenging me and my kind of wrong thinking about my fear of abandonment. I never would have figured that out on my own or I don't, I don't think I would have figured that out. And if I had just had these walls around myself, I don't need anybody. I'm totally fine. Everything's good. She would never have had the chance to speak that into me and to encourage me. And so I think, um, what I find hopeful but also quite sobering is that those of us who need the support and connection of others like I do as a child of divorce often have things that get in the way, you know, the fears that get in the way. And so sometimes it feels like we're trapped by our own fear, you know. And so I really appreciate what you're saying about like there are ways forward but it's gonna take some courage and it's gonna take some vulnerability. Um, and some self honesty to go. How can I change the things that are no longer helping me? The self protection, the isolation, the jumping to conclusions, the assuming that I'm gonna be abandoned. Those might have helped me when I was 12 or 14. But at my age they're not actually helping me anymore. They're actually keeping me from what I want. So, yeah, it's important stuff. It's good stuff. It's hard but it's, it's so valuable, so worthwhile. Yeah. And we could say that maybe, maybe this is a little bit of an exaggeration, but growth only happens in relationship or in community. Perhaps another way to say it would be the biggest growth. The most substantial growth will only happen in community in relationship with other people, whether that's a mentor or a friend or you know, someone else in your life because that's what I've seen too, like on my own, I've been able to grow in some ways. But when I add in like my relationship with God, when I add in my friendships, when I add in my mentorships, and I add in my own marriage, it's like, yeah, that is where the biggest growth in my life. That's where the most healing has happened. Mhm Yeah. And that's where we can also give gifts to our friends and the people that we love by encouraging them, by asking them some of the hard questions and really listening to their answers by will being willing to sit with them in those places of pain or sadness or disappointment and like let them also chew on it so that they can move forward. So it's, it's not just about me, it's also about what do I have to offer, which, you know, it's really, it's a gift to be part of a community of friends and to so hopefully be part of the healing uh that we want in our own lives. Tanya, I've really appreciated the conversation. And before we close out, please tell us a little bit about your book and how people can get that and find you online. Yeah. So in 2017, I wrote a book called Come Home Laughing. Uh a novel for Adult Children of Divorce. And it's available on Amazon to search Tael lions or Come home Laughing. I really wanted to tell the story of Children of divorce and their adult Children of divorce and their experience. Um Some of the things that have really helped me uh learning about emotions, learning about grief, learning about trust. Um But tell it in a story format so that um that it's accessible and interesting and people hopefully relatable that in that book, there'll be some character that you can relate to if you grew up with divorced or separated parents. And then I'm also on Facebook and Instagram as Tanya Lyons author. So I love to, I try to post um you know, content that is helping people reflect on their experience and encouraging us to keep moving forward together. Thank you so much for being here again. I appreciate sharing your story and the wisdom you've gained over the years. I uh I know we're all better for it just in closing. I want to give you the final word. What words of encouragement would you give to someone who feels broken? You feels stuck in life because of their parents', divorce because of their broken family Yeah, to you, I would say the same things I would say to myself is what happened. It's significant. It's, it's terrible. It's worth being sad and upset about and yet it's not the only thing about you. It's not even the most important thing about you. And I would encourage you even as I encourage myself to, to find some people who can help you move forward so that you don't miss out on the beautiful life that is awaiting you and that the people who love you and people you love don't miss out on who you are. If you want to pick up Tanya's book, just click on the link in the show notes to get that. And if you come from a divorce or broken family, I have a question for you. How is your parents, divorce or your broken family affecting you today? It might be trickier to answer that than it seems. And if your answer is, I don't really know or you don't understand the depth of it, you're not alone, that's actually very common. But in the words of one therapist, when it comes to experiencing healing, naming how you've been harmed is about 70% of the battle. Our new assessment will help you name and diagnose your Brokenness. So you can heal it at its roots, not just treat the symptoms and build the life and relationships that you desire. So if you want to become the best version of yourself. You want to find the love, happiness and freedom that you long for and you want to avoid repeating the cycle of dysfunction and divorce. Then you need to heal. And the first step to healing is naming and diagnosing the wound to help do that. Take our free confidential and research based assessment. Just go to my broken family dot com, answer the questions there and then you'll view your results again. That's my broken family dot com. Or just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them and always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

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#094: Are You Trying to Outrun Your Trauma?

How have you dealt with the trauma of your parents’ divorce or broken family? 

How have you dealt with the trauma of your parents’ divorce or broken family? 

After enduring her parents’ divorce, her mom’s alcoholism, her dad’s absence, and her stepmom’s abuse, today’s guest tried to outrun her trauma through busyness, accomplishments, and perfectionism. 

Before long, she went from repressing her emotions and saying “I’m fine” to “I need help.” That began her healing, which we discuss, plus:

  • How she doubted her ability to be a good wife and mother

  • How she grew up faster than her peers from intact families, making it difficult to relate to them

  • When are anxiety or depression drugs necessary and when are they used inappropriately?

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Take the My Broken Family Assessment

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you've experienced the trauma of your parents', divorce or your family falling apart. I have a question for you. How have you dealt with it? How have you dealt with it? In other words, what have you done in response to the trauma itself and the pain and the problems it's brought into your life. My guest today endured her parents' divorce, her mom's alcoholism, her dad's absence and even her stepmom's abuse. So what was her response? She tried to outrun her trauma through busines, through accomplishments and perfectionism and it worked for a while, but eventually it caught up with her. Now, thankfully, she went from repressing her emotions and saying, I'm fine to saying I need help. She then began to seek healing which we dive into. In this episode. We also discussed how she feared and doubted her ability to be a good wife and mother because she never saw that growing up how she felt like she grew up faster than her peers from intact families making it difficult to relate to them. We discuss situations where anxiety or depression, drugs are necessary in situations where they're used inappropriately. We talk about how authentic love is healing and why she's even grateful for all the challenges she's endured. And she even has a really beautiful message to her parents. Keep listening. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation or broken marriage so you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panelli. This is episode 94. If you found this podcast helpful in navigating the pain and the problems from your parents divorce and even finding healing. I'm thrilled to announce that we have a new resource that's going to help you even more. We'll be releasing two video courses. The first is all about trauma. It's titled Broken to Whole Tactics to Heal from your parents', divorce or broken marriage. And it answers what is trauma, how does trauma in general but also the trauma of your parents', divorce or dysfunctional family affect you again to the science, even the neurobiology of it. It's fascinating stuff. What can you do to heal from it? So you can avoid repeating that cycle in your own life. And so much more of the course is actually taught by a trauma therapist with over 15 years of experience helping people to heal from trauma. And the second course is all about how to confidently help someone from a divorce or broken family. It answers questions like what struggles do Children of divorce and dysfunction face. What should you say? Not say do and not do in order to help them, how do you start those difficult conversations? What if they seem fine? And there's some special tips for parents and so much more. And that course is actually taught by me. The content is based on a lot of research but also restored article that ranks top three on Google when someone searches a term, like how do I help a friend who's going through their parents divorce and that receives over 3000 views each month. So more details coming soon, especially that title of the second course and the official launch date. So stay tuned for that. And if you'd like to join the waitlist to get notified first and be given a special advanced access, just go to restored ministry dot com slash courses, again, restored ministry ministry, singular dot com slash courses or just click the link in the show notes. And by doing that, you also get a bonus on building healthy relationships and a strong marriage as a child of divorce who also experienced a traumatic stepparent situation. Alana spent much of her young adult life striving for perfection and success in all areas of life throughout her healing process. She earned a degree in secondary education from Penn State University and married the love of her life, Nick during their junior year of college, they currently live near Pittsburgh Pier where Alana works as a youth minister and outreach coordinator at her parish Alan and Nick are expecting their first baby soon and cannot be more excited to be parents. Now, a quick disclaimer, Alana is a Catholic Christian. So we talk a little about God and faith if you don't believe in God, this episode is still for you. I'm so glad that you're here. I know you're gonna relate a lot with Alana's story. Even if you were to skip or take out the God part, you're still going to benefit from this episode. So my challenge to you is just listen with an open mind. Also, Alana and I are obviously not doctors or psychologists or psychiatrists. So our discussion about taking drugs for anxiety and depression is not meant in any way to tell you what to do for your specific situation. So with that, let's dive in Alana. Welcome to the show. Thanks so much for doing this. Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here. I read your story on our blog and we'll make sure to link to that in the show notes. So if you could check that out as well, and I knew that, you know, we need to have you on the show. So it's great to have you. And so diving right in uh how old were you when your parents separated and divorced? So I was about either five or six uh at some point during kindergarten. And then I just remember things in my life kind of changing quickly after that. But honestly, when it comes to like the divorce itself, I don't really remember much. I remember being pulled into like my guidance counselor's office and then reading me this like divorcing Dinosaurs book and I'm like, what the heck is this? And then little did I know? Yeah. Ok. I've never, I've never heard of the divorced dinosaur book. Uh Do you have any memory of what? That's like, I'm curious. So my the guidance counselor's office was like, totally groovy like lava lamps everywhere, like beans tapestries. So I just remember being mesmerized by that and then being sit down with this like divorcing dinosaurs book and the kids' parents I think are going through a divorce and it's like a children's book that, you know, is used to help convey the idea of divorce to kids. Honestly, I just remember being distracted by the lava lamp but then afterwards I was like, oh, why was I pulled out of class individually? Like for that and just kind of being like confused, like why was this book being read to me? Yeah. No, it's, it's a sad scene for sure. And I think a lot of times, you know, the people who put resources like that together have good intentions, but it can totally miss the mark. You know, in a way what I've seen with a lot of those resources, they like try to normalize this divorce and try to make it seem like it's this, oh, it's just like a different phase of your family. It's like, no, actually your family is like, breaking apart and, and in some ways it's like dying and so trying to make a child, like, understand it. Like you'd make them understand how food grows or how, you know, where your grandma and grandpa live. Like things like that. It, it's not, not that easy. Yeah, I feel like that was definitely a big intention of like the authors of the book. And yeah, definitely looking back on that and reflecting on it, I remember being little and having like therapists or counselors say, you know, this is OK, this isn't your fault. And I'm like, OK, I get that but like why is it happening and why does it hurt so much? Just like you said, I feel like especially in today's culture, divorce or just like relationship issues in general are very normalized when really, when you look at it, it's like that's not how life and how relationships were meant to be. Yeah, so true. And I, I love the way you said that I might be adding a few words here. But it's like if it isn't a big deal, why does it hurt so much? Mhm And so as much as you're comfortable sharing, yeah. Take us deeper into that. Like what happens um in your family? Yeah. So at some point, I want to say either during kindergarten or the summer after, um, we spent, yeah, I think that summer after kindergarten, my mom and my younger brother and I, his name is Brendan. He's three years younger than me. We lived in our family friends like Den. Um, and then shortly after that, we got our own townhouse a few minutes away from, uh, where we had all lived previously. And then at that point I think we would, like, see our dad, like two nights a week and then every other weekend. And that was kind of the case for like most of my childhood up through, like high school things were like, ok, after they had split prior to them splitting, all I really remember was just arguing a lot about, I don't even know what I have one vivid memory of. I can't remember which parent but one of them, like, grabbed me, ran to the bathroom, locked the door while the other one's like pounding on the door. So kind of scary. Yeah, throughout childhood, uh, they just kind of stayed separated and I do kind of have to pat my parents on the back here a little bit in terms of after the divorce, the way the two of them interacted with each other for the most part when we were around was very respectable. Um, like they were civil with each other and I feel like they did for the most part prioritize my and like my brother's needs, which was great. Um I, yeah, I feel like a lot of that started to change though when my dad remarried. So he started dating this other lady, uh when I was in fifth or sixth grade. Um, and then they married when I was in seventh grade and at first my stepmom, you know, she was like fun taking me on shopping trips, getting my nails done and then turns out that was kind of a big cover for her being abusive. So she uh she has her own slew of traumas from her own parents and mental disorders and a very stressful job. And with her not taking care of that, she kind of like projected all of that onto my dad and me and my brother, she would like, prevent him from him coming to see us when we'd go to their house on the weekend. She would like, always have my dad be doing chores that like didn't really need to be done just to avoid him spending time with us. Even when I was like an older teenager, she wouldn't let me use anything in the kitchen. Like wasn't allowed to cook, wasn't allowed to like, really eat anything other than cereal. And just that like the entire period of time that she was in my life, I felt like I was walking on eggshells and like in my own feeble little teenage voice, I'm trying to voice this to my dad because I'm one trying to like, convince myself that, oh, this is normal. She's just a bit of an odd duck and she has been through a lot and try to like, convince myself that what she's doing is ok when it was not. So I feel like with that, I kind of internalized a lot of confusion, frustration, hurt pain because I mean, at the end of the day, it's like my dad's being taken away from me and with that around that time as well, my mom's dad had passed away and my mom had always kind of had issues with drinking. But I feel like that her dad's death really exacerbated that and she's been struggling with alcoholism. I mean, pretty much ever since the divorce. But especially since then. So with that as a young teenager in like middle school, I remember distinctly remembering and I went to like Catholic school my whole life and I really think it's because of that that now I can say like my faith is one of the biggest like, influences and most important things in my life. But I remember just having this like uns shaking belief that this is for a purpose and that all these things that I'm going through. Like there's a reason for it. Like it's either making me stronger or it's gonna help me with something in the future. I didn't know what, but I really think it was by the grace of God that he gave me that confidence despite, you know, being in such a hard time. So that kind of continued all throughout high school, all that stuff with my stepmom. And then my mom started dating someone else. I think my freshman or sophomore year of high school. Um, and he's nice gentleman. He's very fine, but still throughout high school I was very involved academically. Um, I was the captain of, like, the academic bowl and STEM team and on a travel field hockey team and like peer ministry. And I was the girl that like, did all the things that a lot. Yeah. But looking back on that, like since now that I'm almost finishing college, I realized that, oh, I kind of used all of those things to hide anything. I was feeling like, oh, if I'm busy, then I don't have to like, interact with my family or I don't have to like, dwell on these emotions because I'm just go, go, go all the time and then I don't have time to like, sit with my feelings. And I feel like honestly, my whole childhood up until I came to college, my emotions were just completely repressed and I feel like I let my identity be what I did. I think also. So my brother, when he was younger, he had a lot more needs and because he was two, when they got divorced, he needed a lot more attention emotionally and stuff. So I feel like just overall I was very independent, kind of left to my own devices and that just kind of went through my entire childhood and young adulthood. Yeah, that's it in a nutshell, I guess. Yeah, I know there's so much there and thanks for just your openness. And before we dive into, I have a few comments. But before we dive into further things too, I just want to say how impressed I am by you. Like I know a little bit about you and everyone will learn more about you in this interview. But it's beautiful to see given what you've described of what you've been through, of what your parents have struggled with and the ways in which you were, you know, just traumatized by the separation and the divorce and how, you know, you suffered through the abuse and just the other things that you dealt with in addition to all of that, then you are where you are today. That's impressive. And so I just want you to just to know that and I think that's so hopeful too for other people who may be young people who are in the midst of it right now. And they think like, I feel like I can never get through this or never move on in life. And uh it's beautiful to see that, that you're doing that. So, uh so well done. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. Of course, what you said about kind of busyness that relates to me a lot. Maybe that's just my personality type but I, you know, try to pack my schedule and just like, I love, yeah, just being productive and doing all that. And, like, you know, in high school too and even college for me it was like, sports and trying to accomplish different things and do well there and, and I, like you said, I think there's something, you know, good about it but of course, um, it can be a coping mechanism and it certainly was for me kind of just hiding from my pain and not wanting to face it. And I've heard people use the analogy when it comes to like repressed emotions. Like you mentioned that all that grief that we kind of are like running from. It's almost like a swimmer in the water with like imagine a woman swimming in water with really long hair and it's almost like that hair is like dragging behind her for this analogy. And, um, it won't that, that like long yucky, like dark hair won't catch up with her unless she stops. So she keeps swimming in a way she'll feel safe. But when she stops, it's like, oh, watch out. And so, um, I'm so glad that you've like, you know, dug into that too because people can go years and years and years much longer than, you know, much older than you. And I are even right now. Um, and never really address this stuff and it's just, that really breaks my heart. So it's, um, it's awesome to see that. You know, you've, you've begun that work and even made progress. But I remember my daughter Lucy right now, she like, is going through this phase where she loves watching The Sound of Music. So she's like, all about it. And to those of you who don't know that movie, it's like a movie from, I think it came out in the sixties. And um it's a musical and it's, uh you know, it's a little older now, but it was, it was a great movie, but she just loves the music and everything. And um, so we watched it like a million times recently and uh one of the lines in the movie is um activity suggests a life filled with purpose and I think that's so true. I think that's a lot of times how I felt is almost like this thing where if I'm really busy then I, I feel important. I feel significant. I feel like um people will respect me. And so that's another component to that busines as well. So I can relate a lot on that front. But um man, you went through, through so much and um I uh yeah, again, appreciate you being so vulnerable. So, so open to that before I hop on hop further. Anything else you want to say about what happened? Well, I guess just to comment on some things you mentioned one sound of music would recommend Love that. And two. Yeah, I think the analogy of the woman swimming in the water is very accurate. I've never really heard of that before, but at least for me, like, you know, living in, you know, my parents' houses up until I was 18 and then I went off to college and it wasn't until I kind of had that quote unquote stop in college where I had, I think the first opportunity in my life to really be introspective and think about, you know, my upbringing because this was like the first time I'm actually living on my own. And it really took that for me to realize that oh, I had been through really difficult things and that was kind of the catalyst for me to start like getting help and actually starting my healing process. Beautiful. No, that makes so much sense. And I think it's a good lesson to everyone listening, especially who is um behind you on the path, who hasn't gotten to that point yet if they're still, you know, swimming, if they're still running, kind of escaping those things. Um, at a point, it can get really difficult. I remember in college for me too, even high school. But college for me as well where like I just, I, I was like, experience a lot of messy emotions is like the best way I could put it into words at the time. It was like I just felt super broken. I couldn't even tell you like why or what was going on. I knew it was related to just a lot of, you know what I had gone through in my family, all that trauma. Um But I didn't fully understand it. So, um I think if you know that's coming, I think it is really helpful and then you can kind of not be surprised when that those struggles happen and then you can know, ok, I'm gonna need some help with this. And I'm not aware are strange for experiencing this. Given the difficult things I've been through, given the trauma, it's kind of to be expected. It's like if you break your ankle, you know, and then you heal it and go through therapy and then you start running again. It's like if you try to run a marathon, you might, you know, feel some pain. That's, that's normal. Yeah. No, I definitely agree with all of that. And I think at least for me, it came with like two sides of the same coin. Like one, a lot of freedom, a lot of freedom to finally, like, be myself and live and just have like a routine that I wanted where I wasn't constrained by, you know, all the happenings between going from one house to another factory and like all these other family things. Um, but two, I think with that freedom came a lot of reflection on, oh, why is it that I finally feel so happy being by myself. And I think a lot of hard emotions with that. And I think with that transition to college, like, one of, one of the first things that I did when arriving um was get involved with my campuses, Newman Center. And I feel like, honestly, that was where I really started to find like the friends and the people who one brought me closer to Christ. But two actually, like, sat with me with my feelings that like, I didn't even know I had and it's those friends that more than anything probably. And my now husband that we, we met at the Newman Center. But um it's those people who really have changed my life and helped me the most through this whole healing process so good. I'm excited to dig into that more as well. Was there anything else you wanted to add about kind of how your parents divorce, how their broken marriage um, affected you? I think like, one of the biggest things I guess was this fear that I had that I want to know how to be a good wife or a good mom one day. Quite honestly, I think that was like the biggest thing I was afraid of from probably all of my teenage years, just like I'm not gonna know how to manage a household or cook dinner properly or take care of kids or have a good happy holy relationship with my spouse just because, like I had never seen it. Like I had no idea what that looked like. Not only that, but you'd look to TV, you look to many other relationships, even, like my parents friends had struggling relationships or my friend's parents had struggling relationships and my parents' friends. But it's like, it's very hard to see good examples of what that looks like. Um, and I think from like a young teenager, I'm like, how do I do this in the future? And it wasn't until I really one met my now husband and two saw his parents. Um, and the good example that they had that I kind of understood that, but no, that fear definitely kept me back from. I feel like a lot of things like I was very high, like, hid myself a lot in a lot of ways. Um, and then also in high school, I feel like it led me to seek out a lot of relationships with other boys that weren't necessarily fruitful. I had two shorter relationships in like my sophomore year of high school and then another boy and I dated for nearly two years, my junior and senior year and at the time I was like, oh my gosh, we're gonna get married like he's a good Catholic. Um And yet, like, in retrospect a lot, like both of us used each other for, um, our like, emotional needs for attention. Um, it led to like, some unchased things between us and just a lot of use. Um, I think because we were both just yearning for that, like, love and affection and like, affirmation that neither of us were getting from our parents. And yeah, once I kind of like, realized that it was a very hard pill to swallow to realize that this is how my parents' divorce was, like, actually affecting me because I think up until that point I had convinced myself like, oh no, they're fine. I'm fine. I'm a big girl. Like it doesn't affect me. And then once I really, like, let myself consider that for a second, I was like, oh, no, this actually affects me a lot more than I think it does totally. And so many of us have had that experience where like we're going through life and like, I, I think I'm good, like, I, I don't think it really affected me much and then it kind of hit you in the face, especially the trend we've seen and you've probably seen this in the podcast is relationships. Like that's usually the thing that's like, man, I feel lost. I don't know what I'm doing or I'm just like, terrified of repeating what my parents had and I certainly don't want that. And, um, I know when it came to dating for me touching on what you just said, um, I was so scared like I was, I was just freaked out. I was like, I don't know how to go about this. I am just afraid the person is like going to abandon me because I, you know, didn't want to repeat what I saw in my parents' marriage and my own marriage. But also I didn't want to repeat that feeling, that experience of abandonment and rejection that I experienced when my parents separated. And so all of that just felt so scary and so risky that it was like, it's better maybe just play it safe and just not go down this route and kind of give up on love and relationships. And, um, what happens in that case, like you said, so well, and I experienced this too is if we give up on love and relationships, we just settle for the counterfeit usually. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. No, I definitely agree with that. Yeah. And, and, and that never satisfies. So then we have to go deeper into that and look for more and more and more. So, I'm, I'm right there with you. You mentioned your husband's parents. I want to stay there for a second. Uh What have you learned from them? I'm just curious because there's a lot of people who find themselves in that same spot that you and I were in where it's like, yeah, I'm scared. I don't know how to do this. Um, but then again, one of the trends we've seen is when you have those good marriages in your life. That can be a beautiful example and give you hope. Um, it goes really far. So I'm curious in particular for you from your parent, um, husband's parents or from other couples you knew? Like, what did you learn? Yeah. So, I guess a little bit of context about my husband before jumping into his parents, but we met my freshman year of college and then got married. When was it in the middle of our junior year? And we're just finishing up or yeah, about to graduate after about a year and a half of marriage and with all that. So, especially during the COVID pandemic. Uh, since all of our classes were online, uh, we would kind of every couple weeks move back and forth between staying with his parents and staying with mine and his parents. Uh, his whole family is like very devout Catholic. Uh, he has two older sisters and a younger brother and his parents are genuinely like the most loving, caring, selfless people that I know. Um, they have been married, I wanna say 38 years this year. And you can just tell them like the way they treat each other, the way they treat their kids and their grandkids, they truly, truly respect each other and want what's best for the other person after I had gotten to know them for or a little bit. I had learned that there was a point where they actually almost got a divorce themselves and there were some really rough financial things going on and they, they actually did plan to divorce once all their kids were 18 and out of the house, which I mean, I thought was impressive that they would still stay together despite practically hating each other just for the sake of their Children. Like I'm, I'm getting choked up thinking about that, but just the sacrifices that they were willing to make for the sake of their kids blows my mind. And yet with that, like they say, constantly, you know, their relationship is so much stronger now that they have been through that than, you know, than it ever was before going through such a challenge. And I think it's, it's just really, really admirable. Wow, that is super impressive. And I'd be so curious to learn from them too. Maybe we'll have to get them on the podcast. But yeah, I, and the more I learn about marriage and hear from couples who are like way smarter than, you know, me and the more I realize like those sorts of struggles and kind of getting to that point where you want to quit are pretty normal in a marriage. Some people are scandalized by that because they think marriage is going to be like this fairy tale. But, um I think it, again, it's helpful if you can kind of expect like, yeah, at some point, things are going to get harder than they are. Now and I might want to quit. I might want to walk away and I think that's really where, that's really where it takes a lot of like virtue, a lot of strength and God's grace to, to keep going and what they experience too. Um, I don't have the research in front of me, but there's a lot of research that says if you, if you push through those hard times, if you make those sacrifices, of course, with the exception that there's not like abuse or things like, you know, you might get killed by your thoughts or whatever like that, then you need to get to safety, of course. But if you can push through those difficult times, those annoyances, those frustrations, those, you know, even like you said, hitting each other, perhaps, um the majority of the time your marriage will actually improve like they saw and, and that's like really hopeful and beautiful. So a lot of people don't hear that. And again, I don't have the research performing sorry guys. But I think it's really important to hear because those struggles, they're inevitable. Yeah, definitely. And even just anecdotally, like my mother-in-law has said, she like so many of her sisters and in-laws and her friends and their marriages have had very severe struggles. Um And yet with all of them, the ones that have stuck together through that they're so much happier, so much stronger, so much more devoted to each other after going through that when Nick and I were doing our marriage prep and like pre K stuff. Our sponsor couple detailed some of the struggle that they went through and I, we both look at them as like just this wonderful epitome of a good Catholic couple and Catholic family and to know that they chose to get through those struggles together and to choose each other over and over again and to choose their kids over their own, like, feelings is very admirable to see. And I think for a while it was hurtful, like, having known that, that in marriage and in relationships, it is a choice that we can make to stick it out through those hard times. Um, I feel like coming to that realization led to some resentment with my own parents for, for a bit, just like, why, why couldn't they choose to seek help? Why couldn't they, um, choose to consider me and my brother a little bit more? Um, and how their decisions might affect us. I've since, like, worked past that. But I think recognizing the power of choice and the ability to persevere is very, very impressive. Yeah. No, I agree. And we, we champion that in other areas of life a ton. Right. You know, it's like in school or career or sports or, you know, staying fit, whatever we don't tell people, oh, just quit and go try something else. It's like, no, we, we tell them, like, push through like, persevere, be strong, like all that stuff and we need more of that within our, within marriage, just for sure. So, I, I definitely agree with what you're saying. Yeah. Was there anything else? I guess you've learned, you learned from them in particular that was kind of transformative for you, like, aside from just their whole story overall. Yeah, I guess speaking of my father-in-law in particular, so the issue that they had led him to have to leave his job and kind of leave his whole entire field that he had worked in for years. And as a result, he picked up his sister's dog walking business. Mind you, he hates dogs. Um, but it, it was the job that he could get at the time. And since then, I mean, he continues every single day of the year, like holidays, weekends, kids', birthdays, everything he goes out there and he walks these dogs and as much as he hates it, he does it every single day without any complaining whatsoever because he knows he's providing for his family and those that he loves. I mean, you'll get the old, old like, oh, out to go, like pick up some more dog poop again and like humorous things, but never once wants a genuine complaint. And I feel like that that is just such a gift that he provides to his family. And I, I really admire him for that. And I know my husband does and all of his kids do as well. So it's very impressive. No, that's so impressive. And I, I think that what you're getting at, like this ability to sacrifice, which we can boil it down to like self mastery. Right. That's the core ingredient to a beautiful marriage. That's it. Like, like, obviously there's other things too. But I think at its core and, or the foundation we can say is like, if you have that basic virtue, if you have that self mastery, that ability to like, deny yourself to do what's best for the people that you love. You're going to get way further than doing what the culture really suggests, which is like, we'll go with your feelings or do whatever you want. Um That's just going to be a recipe for disaster. Yeah, definitely. And like throwing it back to my high school theology class to love is to will the good of the other. And that's not to just want to do what's best for the other people, but it's to make those sacrifices when it's hard and to actually get out there and do the things that are better for the other person, even if it's not what you want. And yeah, just like you said, I feel like that is when it really comes down to it, that is what makes or breaks a relationship so good. Staying on the theme of relationships you already mentioned, you know, your relationship and in high school and some other things. Was there anything else you would add in terms of how your parents divorce all the dysfunction at home, impacted your ability to relate with other people, especially in your dating relationships and now your marriage. Yeah. Well, I'd say kind of detailed all the dating relationship stuff, but socially, just as an elementary, middle, high school student, I felt it difficult to just relate to my peers in general. I felt that I grew up a lot more quickly than the other kids around me. And because of that, I couldn't quite relate to them and like that they could relate to each other. I also just went to a very small school and middle school girls can get very clicky. So I feel like already that like lack of connection combined with all that just made socialization a bit difficult up until high school when things got a bit better. But yeah, it took a lot of like kind of introspection to kind of like reflect and realize that. And then once I did things started to make a lot more sense when it comes to my current relationship. Now with my husband, honestly, I gotta say that was one of the biggest things that helped me, one realize how affected I was by my parents' divorce and two helped me start my like healing process. We started dating honestly, just a couple weeks into my freshman year of college. Um So as I was going through this big life change, um and all these other, just like subconscious emotional changes, um I also started to have panic attacks out of nowhere right around this time. And it was really nick, who one helped me through that. Like during my first panic attack, my first instinct was to call him and we weren't even dating yet, but my first instinct was to call him and he ran half a mile across campus to come get me. So if that's not dedication, I don't know what it is. But, but he would, even if he didn't quite understand why I was feeling the things I was feeling because his home life growing up was drastically different than mine without fail. He took the time to sit with me and my emotions help me process them because I never processed them before. He helped me understand what it was. I was truly looking for in a relationship. I had kind of come to that realization just before meeting him. But he was kind of like the actualization of that. But he has just provided such a safe haven and such a good rock for me as I've been going through this journey the past like four years now and I'm still going through it. But just without fail, he never fails to show up and help me with whatever it is I'm going through and he's patient and he's kind and he's loving in just so many different ways. And one, I don't think I'd be the person I am without my parents' divorce. But two, I don't think I'd be the person I am without him as well. Beautiful. Wow. Sounds like an incredible man. And thanks for sharing all that. Yeah, I think it's again so hopeful too, especially to people who maybe checked out and given up on love and relationships all together because it is rough in the dating world. Like I'm glad I'm not dating today. I'm sorry to all of you out there who are like, it's rough out there. But knowing that there's good men like your, your husband is super hopeful. And I love the point like underneath the point that you're making, it's just like this idea that like love can be healing, incredibly healing. And, and I found that too, whether it was in my friendships or, you know, my dating relationship, even like I was able to date really great girls, like incredibly like virtuous, beautiful women and uh and my wife included. And uh it can be incredibly healing. And I think when we look at our Brokenness, our wounds, the trauma we've endured. I learned this from Dr Bob Sheets, like at the root of almost every wound is a deprivation of love or a distortion of love. And so naturally, it follows that he, you know, to heal those wounds, we need authentic love. And so that's what you're experiencing, which is really, really beautiful. And, you know, you can experience that again in your friendships and your relationship with God, perhaps even in your relationship with your parents if, if those relationships are healed in time. Um And, but yeah, in, in a marriage for sure. So it's really, really beautiful to, to see that, that, that love can be healing, that love can be. Um it can, it can transform you and not, not in the sense that you know, your husband's your savior, but in the sense that he can, you know, see the Brokenness, see the wound, see the messiness, see the imperfections that you have and love you in spite of them. And perhaps even because of them, those moments in my life are like where people have been like seeing how broken I am and they still love me that, that in itself was just like healing. Yeah. No, I totally agree with all that Joey. And I think especially as like a young woman in today's society, it can be just in general, hard to think that there are good quality men out there who actually want to take care of you and love you for who you are. Um and not just for what you are and taking the time to really seek out just high quality people for friends in general, but especially in a dating partner or a spouse, it's definitely worth the wait can agree more when it comes to healing and, you know, kind of navigating the pain and the problems that you dealt with in healthy ways. You mentioned some of the unhealthy ways. Um What were a few things that again really helped you heal and really helped you cope or navigate those things in addition to what you already mentioned? Yeah, ironically, the COVID pandemic I think was really helpful with um all the time, you know, spending time by myself. Um and especially with Nick and his family. I think that was a very good opportunity that came out of such a dark time that for everyone. But I think also seeking out therapy and good therapy has been extremely helpful. So shortly after we got married, so I, I had been struggling with my mental health um with anxiety and depression for, I mean, I wanna say years, but I didn't like throughout my childhood, but I don't think I realized that it affected me that much until right around when COVID hit. So about a year ago was when I started seeing a therapist mostly for just like my mental health because that's what I thought it was. I was like, oh, I'm just anxious from, you know, not seeing a lot of people because of COVID and I'm depressed because I can't get out and I'm a huge extrovert and I was like, it got to the point that I'm doing like, I'm exercising, sleeping, right, doing all the things that should help alleviate that. And the fact that I was still feeling these awful things told me that, hey, I should probably seek some help. So I did originally just for mental health in general. And then with that therapy, we kind of realized that no, a lot of this actually ties back to my parents' divorce and what I went through and how that made me feel how much of a perfectionist made me become, how much it made me repress my emotions, how much it made me like, put my self worth and like the things I did because that's when I would get attention from my parents if I like, got a trophy or whatever. And all of like the behaviors that my parents had when I was living with them really manifested themselves in how I viewed myself. And thanks to a good therapist that I've seen. And then also another incredible Catholic therapist that my mom and now my mom and I are currently seeing now. I feel like both of that, both of them have helped me just heal and or at least have the ability to heal with myself. I think at least for me, I'm like, being so introspective, just simply taking the time to think about things has been very helpful for me. But you can only really do that effectively if you know what to look for. And it was these wonderful therapists that I had that I think actually helped me with that and I, I feel like I got lucky with just like getting two great therapists right off the bat. But I remember in high school I also wanted to seek out a therapist and I tried three different ones and we just didn't click at all. Um, so if anyone is considering therapy, I definitely consider you to keep looking until you do find someone that you connect with. Um, and especially if you're a practicing Catholic, seeking out Catholic therapists. I think there's a website called like my catholic therapist dot com. And I, I definitely recommend that and I feel like that other than Nick is the biggest reason that I've moved through all of my emotions and everything as well as I have beautiful and I think your story of kind of experiencing symptoms and just like knowing the symptoms where it's like, well, I'm sad a lot. I'm depressed. I'm anxious a lot. I'm having these panic attacks, especially when you get to that point. Um, I think that's usually where people realize like, I need some help. And thankfully you sought it out a lot of times people don't and they just kind of like, find other ways to deal with it. A lot of times they're unhealthy ways, whether it's drinking or, you know, partying or sleeping around or binging on so many different things. So, no, that, that's beautiful that you sort it out. And then I'm glad that you had, you know, a therapist who was competent enough to see like these are symptoms of some root cause they're not, you know, the root cause in and of itself. Because what I've seen a lot and this is like one critique I have of the psych world and I know a lot of people have this critique too is that so often we just manage symptoms, we don't get to the root. And so that's where especially in the world of psychiatry, I've heard psychiatrists come out and say like our profession is failing people in a lot of ways because we just manage symptoms. And then we, they, especially in psychiatry, they do it with pills, you know, with medicine and I'm not, I'm not against medicine. I think there's a place for it, but it needs to be more in depth and it needs to be used more carefully than just like, oh, you're sad. Here's a pill that will make you not feel sad. It's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, why are they so sad? Like what's at the root of that? Is there some sort of trauma, is there, you know, something else going on in their life? And so um so that's beautiful that you had someone who was able to point to that and it sounds like that's been effective like it's been helping you as well. Is that still as much of a struggle now? Or have you been able to, um, kind of find some relief from the, even those symptoms as well. Yeah, I'd say I started seeking therapy a little over a year ago and then soon after that, um, started taking an anti anxiety medication because at least physiologically for me, I'm taking care of my body doing all the like physical things that I need to and yet I'm still like unable to breathe, unable to sleep properly. So, for me, having a medicine was extremely, extremely helpful for me. But I think one of the great things was that both my therapist and my um psychiatrist suggested that I start taking medicine under the assumption that this is temporary just to get you back to a baseline, um where, you know, you're not shaking like a dog every 10 seconds. Um So it's like a gateway to get me to the point where I am able to take care of myself. And that's what it has been like. I, I'm no longer taking the medication and I'm no longer seeing that original therapist that helped me get on that medication. But what they did both with therapy and with medication was give me the tools and get me stable enough so that I could help myself in other ways and let other people in my life help me in other ways. Um But no, I definitely, I definitely agree. And I think in today's society one, it's almost like cool to need antidepressants or something I student teach middle schoolers right now. And they're constantly talking about how, oh, yes. I'm like going to therapy and I'm, I'm very glad that they're like getting help that they need. But at the same time I feel like today's culture glamorizes that when in reality, like you said, medication should not be the end all, be all. Like you can't treat the symptoms, you need to treat the root cause. And I'm very thankful that I've had people in my life to help me with that. Totally. Yeah. No, thanks for sharing that. And I'm so glad that, you know, your therapist and everyone treating you like they took a comprehensive approach. And that's what I was trying to get at when I'm talking about medicine. I don't want anyone to think that I'm like against, you know, like in your case, taking the medicine you needed to take like that, it can be such a good thing and so helpful. I know people right now who, you know, without the medication that they are on it would, they would really, really struggle. And so there's a point to it and I love the temporary piece. I think that's always ideal if you, if that could be the case where it's like we're using this as a tool to get me to a better place where I don't need it anymore. I'm really glad medication exists. Like I've gotten a few surgeries in my life. Nothing major, but I'm really glad they're, you know, that I had medicine to, like, manage the pain. It would have been really miserable if I didn't have that medicine. And, you know, again, when people are in like really rough spots, it can be something that can be very effective. No, no argument there. Um, but yeah, I agree with you too. It's sad to see it as like kind of this blanket approach. And we'll, we'll link to this um interview Dr Peter Attia is a popular doctor who has a podcast and he talks a little bit about this, but he brought on this um uh from what I can tell, like a renowned psychiatrist who practices in New York City. And uh it was really from him that I learned more about his critiques of his own field of psychiatry and how he was saying, you know, that again, he wasn't like saying that the medication is bad in and of itself. But the way that it's often being used is like kind of lazy. It's like, oh, we're just gonna use it as a blanket to cover this problem. We're not actually getting to the root cause. But if it's used as a component as a plan as a part of a, you know, a more comprehensive approach to, to treat someone and help them to, to feel whole again, then uh Yeah, that's great. But the other way can often, what I've seen is actually it leads someone deeper down a hole because it's not, you know, solving what's underneath the surface. So, I'm so glad that, um, you have those competent people in your life who are helping you. And it makes, makes total sense to me. Yeah, totally though. You know, you, I'm sure your work in progress. Um, how have you've seen yourself grow and change and transform over the years from, you know, where you were to where you are today? I laugh because I feel like my 14, 15 year old self would not have or could not have imagined my life being what it is right now. And yet I feel like it's, it's taken the most beautiful and wonderful twists and turns away from what younger me thought. So while in high school, um you know, as I said, I was like the go getter, the like captain of everything, doing all the things. And when I came into college, uh I was originally going to major in biochemistry and I wanted to like go to grad school, get my phd do cancer research, like get a Nobel Prize one day like that. I mean, bit ambitious, but that's what I thought I wanted to do. And it wasn't until I really started this like healing process and all that where I really reflected on. Oh, what does God actually want me to do with my life? Because I thought for the longest time, oh, he's given me you know, this intellect I should use it. But once I kind of like, let him in and try to listen more to what he wanted me to do. He had led me to study secondary education in sciences. So in a few weeks I'll be graduating to be a middle and high school science teacher, which is very exciting. Congratulations. Thank you. So I feel like with that, that was a huge gift from God to one. Still let me like follow my passion for science and my love of that. But also to be in a spot where I can be a mentor to these younger kids, uh especially when they were the age and perhaps going through the things that I went through and to use more of my like empathetic side that I didn't know I had in a career is wonderful. I mean, in addition to that getting married at 21 in college is not necessarily common these days, but oh my gosh, my marriage has been the best thing that has happened in my life. And again, definitely would not have expected that a few years ago. But now being married to Nick almost a year and a half now has been wonderful and we have our first little one on the way. Uh We're expecting this fall so very, very excited for that. And I think, I think just the biggest thing in general is how my desires have shifted. Um since since this whole healing process, um like before, it used to be so outward focused again, doing all the things, getting all the recognition and now it's been so much more focused on quote unquote what really matters, um which to me is family and teaching, you know, our future Children to seek out Christ as a Catholic. After graduation, I'll be working as a youth minister and kind of like outreach coordinator at my parish, which again, not something I would have ever thought I was gonna do. And yet I feel so fulfilled doing that and so content in a way that I didn't even think was possible. Like I am so excited to work for my church to be a mom to raise a family when just like five or six years ago, I almost didn't see that as a possibility for myself. Given my circumstances growing up, I think in general also when it comes to my parents, I'm a lot closer with my dad now. So he and my stepmom, uh they've been separated for, I think two years at this point, but they're getting a divorce now. And as tragic as that is, um it's also relieving that my dad is getting away from a toxic relationship and with that freedom, he's been able to connect a lot more with me and my brother. Um So it's good to kind of have him back. Um And with my mom, we've had a lot more family difficulties with her, me and my brother as of late. But with those difficulties, we've started going to therapy. At least my mom and I have and again, as difficult and painful as that process has been, it has been pretty healing and I've seen her grow a lot deeper in her faith as well. So it's been, it's been very good to see that. And I think there's still a long way to go in terms of like my healing, the way I think about things and my interactions with my parents. But I feel like I can confidently say, you know, after these like four years of healing and like, I don't wanna say soul searching, but like um seeking out help and letting others into my life to help me with that, we're on like a permanent upward trend and things are really good and it's good to say that. Yeah, beautiful. Thanks for sharing all that. I appreciate again, your vulnerability and congrats on the baby. That's so exciting. Um Just being a dad is my, pretty much my favorite thing in the world, if not my favorite thing in the world. So I'm so excited for, for both of you. And it's amazing to see the growth that you've had in your life. And yeah, thinking back to who you were and where you could have ended up to. That's always a humbling thing for me to think of in life. It's like, man, I could have ended up in a really bad spot. Um, I'm not saying my life is perfect or that there's no struggles, but it's like, man, life could have been really sad and scary. Um, so I'm really grateful that that you, you know, have found that path and have followed it and are still on it. So, really, really beautiful before we close out. I'm just curious if your parents were listening right now. Yeah. Is there anything that you would want to say to them? Anything that you would want them to know? That is a tough question. I guess if they were listening, I'd want them to know that I'm not mad at them. I'm not upset with them. Um, like I don't hold any resentment because I know that is a very common feeling amongst, you know, adult Children whose parents were divorced and not that that is a wrong thing to feel or a bad thing to feel. But I'd love for my parents to know that I still love them. And I know that, uh despite all that I went through, despite their decisions, I still know that they did everything with the intention of loving me and loving my brother. And I think also that as kind of hard this is to say, I'm very thankful for what I've been through. As painful as it was. I would do it all over again if it meant me still being the person that I am today. I've had the opportunity to kind of like, share my experiences um with some of my friends as there is, their parents were getting divorced and they were going through messy relationships themselves and things like that. And I truly think that's just the biggest, like testimony of how God uses everything and he doesn't give us things that he doesn't have a purpose for. So for me, I found a lot of comfort in that and I'd love for my parents to know that. Wow, good stuff. Yeah. Difficult question but beautiful answer. Um If people want to contact you, what's the best way for them to do that? Yeah, I'd say by email would be great. Um My email is my name Alana A L A N A 1201 at gmail dot com. And yeah, feel free to reach out. I'd love to talk. Awesome. It's been so good having you. Um 22 final questions. One is um I know you found uh restored helpful. I'm just curious like, yeah, how is restored? Help to you? Um I'll start there and then one final question. Yeah. Um I think the biggest thing, well, one I actually found restored when looking at resources for my friend whose parents were getting a divorce and reading all of these stories and hearing from so many people who went through similar situations that I did simply knowing that I'm not alone I think is just the biggest thing, knowing that I'm not the only one with the feelings that I have um with the concerns that I have with the struggles that I have gone through. Um knowing that there are other people who can relate to me, I think is the biggest thing. And I think that was like the biggest thing that I lacked growing up. Like none of my friends could understand what I went through. No other adults. I felt truly quote unquote, got me and restored, I think because just been such a big blessing in creating that community and creating that connection uh between people when I feel like this is such an un unrecognized issue and unrecognized trauma that so many people um experience and I feel like restored has just been an incredible, incredible resource to just connect people and definitely make me feel not alone, such an honor to serve you. Thank you for um you know, making use of the resources that we have and I'm so glad they've been been helpful. Um Yeah, you're the reason we do it. We want to help you and help your family and help everyone like me who's been through this trauma that you, you, you said, well, it's like it's not treated as a trauma, it's not talked about as a trauma, but it certainly is a trauma and there's millions actually sorry, correction, tens of millions of people who've been through this and don't get the help that they need and deserve and that's wrong. And so we're, we're changing that. So thank you for um for being a part of that coming on the show and in closing, I just wanna give you the final word. What words of encouragement. What advice would you give to someone who, who feels really stuck, who feels broken in life right now because of that trauma of going through their parents, divorce or dysfunction at home. Yeah. Well, real quick, I'd love to just thank you Joey and all the work you and your team do to provide restored ministries. It really is incredible. And I guess any words of advice I've had is that you are not defined by the experiences you had because of your parents. Like we, we go through things, we grow through things and yes, we can be very impacted and shaped by the very difficult things that, you know, life throws at us. And yet even if you feel broken, like I certainly did, I felt like I'd be a failure in any future relationships. I felt like just so many things were scary and I felt like I couldn't do things because of my experiences with divorced parents and yet that doesn't go to waste. That doesn't, that doesn't hold you back. Um And at least for me as a Catholic, God doesn't give us situations that he doesn't equip us to handle. And I feel like relying on God through that and I feel like he gave me a particular grace to trust him on that has been very comforting and healing. But I'd say, regardless of, you know, your belief system or not, every challenge is an opportunity to grow and to use that knowledge for the better. And even if like, you don't understand it, now, there's certainly a way that you can transform that pain and that suffering and those hurt feelings into a way to help yourself and to help others in the future. There's so many good lessons in Alana's story, but there's one that actually hit me that we didn't discuss much and I'll share that in a second. But first, if you come from a divorce or broken family, how is your parents divorce or your broken family affecting you today? It might be trickier to answer that question than it seems. And if your answer is, I don't really know or you don't understand the depth of it, you're actually not alone. That's a very common. But in the words of one therapist, when it comes to experiencing healing, naming how you've been harmed is about 70% of the battle. Our new assessment will help you name and diagnose your Brokenness. So you can heal it at its roots, not just treat the symptoms and build the life and relationships that you desire. So if you want to become the best version of yourself, find the love, happiness and freedom, you long for and avoid repeating the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. Then you need to heal. And the first step to healing is naming diagnosing your wounds to help you do that. You can take our free confidential and research based assessment. Just go to my broken family dot com again, my broken family dot com, answer the questions there and then you can view your results again. Go to my broken family dot com or just click on the link in the show notes again, among the many good lessons in Alana's story. This one hit me putting the work into healing and becoming healthy and whole actually uncovered her calling in life to education. Another way to say it is the barrier of her untreated Brokenness, hid her calling in life. And once she began to overcome that barrier of untreated Brokenness, untreated trauma, it was unveiled. It's a powerful lesson. So if you feel stuck and unsure about what you should do with your life, perhaps your Brokenness is blinding you and you need to begin healing so that you can discover it. If you'd like to share your story with us like Elana did, we'd love to hear it. There's three easy steps to do that. But first, some of the benefits of sharing your story reflecting on your story is healing on a neurobiological level. Writing your story is also healing studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed, less anxious, healthier and happier. And sharing your story with someone is healing on a neurobiological level as well. And also sharing your story gives guidance and hope to people who are struggling in similar ways that you are. How do you do that? Well, just go to restored ministry dot com slash story, again, restored ministry dot com slash story. The form in that page guides you in telling a short version of your story. And then we'll turn that into an anonymous blog article. So share your story now by going to restored ministry dot com slash story or just click on the link in the show notes. All right. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them and always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

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#093: Radio Interview: In Divorce, the Kids are Not Okay and Here’s Why

Two things we’ve learned about divorce from scientific studies and stories of people like us:

Two things we’ve learned about divorce from scientific studies and stories of people like us:

  • Almost always, divorce is traumatic and damaging for the children

  • The effects are typically serious and long lasting

In this episode, you’ll hear a radio interview I did that elaborates on each point:

  • How divorce is traumatic for the children

  • The specific pain and problems it brings into our lives

  • A resource that you can use to navigate through the pain and problems and even find healing

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Two things we've learned about divorce from the scientific studies and listening to stories of people like us who come from divorced families. The first is almost always, divorce is traumatic and damaging for the Children. The second is the effects, the symptoms are usually serious and long lasting. And along those lines in this episode, you'll hear a radio interview that I did about that topic, how divorce is traumatic for the Children, the specific pain and problems it brings into our lives and finally a resource that you can use to navigate through the pain and problems and even find healing. So, keep listening. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation or broken marriage so you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panelli. This is episode 93. If you found this podcast helpful in navigating the pain and problems from your parents', divorce or broken family and even finding healing. I'm thrilled to announce that we have a new resource that's going to help you even more. We'll be releasing two video courses. The first is about trauma. It answers what is trauma, how does trauma in general? But also the trauma of your parents divorce or a dysfunctional family affect you. We get into the, the science, even the neurobiology. Really fascinating stuff. What can you do to heal from it and even prevent yourself from being traumatized in the future? And so much more, so many more questions that are answered. And the course is actually taught by a trauma therapist who's been treating trauma, helping people heal their trauma for over 15 years. The second course is all about how to confidently help someone who comes from a divorce or broken family. It answers what struggles do, Children of divorce or dysfunction typically face what should you say and not say do and not do in order to help them. How do you start those difficult conversations? What if they seem like they're fine? Like what should you do in that case? And some special tips, especially for parents and so much more. And that course is actually taught by me. The content is based on a lot of research but also on a restored article that ranks top three on Google and receives over 3000 views per month on that topic. And so more details will be coming soon such as the official titles and the launch date. So stay tuned for that. But if you want to join the waitlist to get notified first and be given special advanced access to the courses, just go to restored ministry dot com slash courses. Again, restored ministry ministry singular dot com slash courses or just click on the link in the show notes. And by doing that, you also get a bonus on building healthy relationships and a strong marriages when you do sign up for that wait list. So again, go to restored ministry dot com slash courses or just click on the link in the show notes before playing the interview. A quick disclaimer. I do interviews on various podcasts and radio shows. Some of them are secular. Some of them are religious. This one happens to be religious. It's a Catholic Christian radio station in the Denver area. And so just a disclaimer there. If you're someone who, you know, doesn't believe in God or you're not Catholic, you're not Christian. I'm so glad you're here. You're still gonna learn a lot from the interview and you can even skip the God parts and you're still gonna benefit from it. So, with that, here we go today, our special guest is Joey Pontarelli. He's the author of, it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. He's also started running a successful website called restored Ministry dot com and uh Joey, thanks for joining us today, Deacon. It's an honor to be with you. Great to talk with you again. Well, you know, we had talked jeez probably a couple of years ago. I can't even remember how long it was about, uh you know, your, your ministry about really working with young people uh to deal with the pains of divorce and you put this book together and, you know, reading the book. You know, I can kind of, you know, you can feel your pain but you can also feel, you know, how much you really want to try to help young people, try to navigate this because way too many young people are told, you know what you're young, you're resilient, you'll get over it and they just kind of get brushed off. Absolutely. And I, I think that's one of the biggest myths when it comes to divorce. I think intuitively, a lot of people know that divorce is like this ugly painful thing. But so often we focus more on the parents who are going through the divorce than the Children. And when it comes to the Children, kind of the cultural belief is that like you said, they'll be fine, they're resilient and the truth is they won't be fine and they're not as resilient as we think. And we can get into some of the research. But the truth is that so many of them struggle in very serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy, coping relationship issues, difficulties in their relationship with their parents. The list goes on and on. There, there are very real problems that they deal with. But for some reason, as a culture, we've just overlooked this trauma that they've endured and the uh life lasting effects that come with it. Yeah, I just think, you know, you really hit the nail on the head about, you know, all the things that can go on again. We'll get into some of the details. And you mentioned Leila Miller in your book, we've had her on the show and you know, we have her book, Primal Loss, which is a, a bunch of people's stories about divorce. But yours is so I highly recommend that book. But this book is really specific in terms of not only the pain that you went through, but what people can do to kind of navigate this really difficult time in their life that really can't be minimized. And, and as you mentioned, right, kids can't be a second thought on this. This should be the primary thought. That was my story. You can, I came from, I come from a broken family when I was 11 years old, my parents separated and later got divorced and it, it just shattered my world. It brought so much pain and so many problems into my life. And after a while after I had, you know, got fallen into pornography as like my way of coping. I had had a lot of relationship struggles and dealt with emotional problems, like anger, anxiety, depression, loneliness. I realized I I'm broken, I need some help. And so I looked around for some resource some guidance on how to navigate the pain and the problems that was very real in my life. And I was shocked to find that there was nothing practical for young people like me. And part of the reason it shocked me was because I looked around and I saw how my siblings were struggling. I saw how friends of mine, close friends of mine who were going through their parents divorce were struggling. And so it just baffled me that there was nothing out there for young people who came from broken families. And so years later, after going to Franciscan University and growing a business, I decided to start this ministry. And uh you know, like you said, we help young people, teenagers and young adults from broken families to heal and grow so they can feel whole again and thrive. And the the problem is if, if we're not giving guidance on how to navigate the pain and problems from our parents' divorce, we're just going to continue to struggle in numerous ways. And for so many of us, the sad reality is we end up repeating what we saw in our own family. We would end up repeating that dysfunction. We end up repeating those broken relationships and broken marriages. And so if we want to prevent that from happening, which I know I do with all my heart and I want to help other people. We need to heal, we need to grow, we need to be given strategies to navigate these pain and the problems. Well, that's why I think what you put together is really such a helpful guide. I, I recommend people getting it. I'm sure they can get it at Restore Ministry. Uh But where else, where else can they get this book? Because I'll, I'll finish this interview and forget to ask you. No, no, you're totally fine. So if they wanna buy it, um they can go to Amazon and just search, it's not your fault. Um If they wanna put Joey in there, they can. But the first result should be our book. It's not your fault. Uh If they want the first chapters free, we're giving those away for free at restored ministry dot com slash books. Again. Restored ministry ministry singular dot com slash books. They could just click on the, the button there that says get free chapters and then we'll email them, uh, the free chapters. Well, you know, I think really when, when you read this book, you hear not only your story but you hear numerous other stories. It really just goes to show you how evil divorce is and really how selfish it is. Now, granted, there's people who get divorced because there's abuse issues. Absolutely right. We're not saying people should stay in an abusive marriage. But if you get married, it is for advert to quote sandlot. It isn't, you know, until we're tired of it and we wanted to do something else. And there's nothing that irritates me more than when somebody says, well, you know, we just kind of fell out of love. Well, look, you weren't abducted by aliens. Love is a choice. Right. Love is an act of the will. And I've been married for over 30 years, I'm sure my wife has been ready to bing me over the head many a time. But you know what, our marriage is stronger because we battled through the instead of being quitters and giving up like this culture tells you to do. Absolutely. And I think that's the true test of marriage. I'm 3.5 years into my own marriage. We have one baby girl at this point and it's certainly been challenging and I, I know people who come from broken families, typically, statistically, we struggle more in our relationships. But I have to say it's so beautiful and it's so good and it's so possible to work through a lot of the problems that you face and to build something really, really beautiful and it's always a work in progress. But uh I think it is possible to, to build love that lasts and that's the message that so many of us need to hear. And when it comes to divorce, like you said, there's certainly situations where uh a legal separation is necessary in order to protect the spouse or the Children. That's one of the first things that comes to mind. And in fact, I, I know the people listening right now are thinking of that like, well, what about abuse? What about violence and all that? And like you said, the church that both the catechism and canon law, it's very clear that if you're in that situation get to safety, that's really, it should be a no brainer. Um But we need to say that because a lot of people I think, um think that we're saying no, stay in an abusive situation. That's not what we're saying. But one of the leading researchers deacon on this topic of divorce says that about 70% of marriages that end in divorce are low conflict, divorces, meaning the spouses had problems not to minimize their problems at all. But it wasn't abuse, it wasn't violence, it wasn't the threat of death in those cases. Essentially, they just decided that we don't want to keep trying. Now, in about 30% of cases, this one researcher says that that's those cases where a separation would be helpful to protect the spouse and the Children. Now, even in those cases, canon law says the goal is always to reunite the spouses and to heal the marriage. So for example, I know someone who's going through this right now, the husband is an alcoholic, he's abusive, bad situation. She had to separate, she had to take the kids and get out of there. She filed for a legal separation to protect the kids, but she has no intention of not staying true to her wedding vows. And so she's staying true to her wedding vows even though her husband might not be. And, uh, and that's such a heartbreaking and difficult situation, but she is heroic for what she's doing. And so we really need to support those people going through that. And instead of just telling them, we'll just get divorced and move on, move on with your life. We need to really help them to heal the marriage if it's possible. Well, I think that's, you know, this book should be required reading for anybody who goes in and says I want a divorce, right? If you have Children, they should have to read this book because they need to understand potential. Not, not, we're not gonna paint with a broad brush. Everybody doesn't have all these things, but we are going to inflict this in all likelihood on our Children that is attempted suicide, struggle, romantic relationships, getting divorced, right? Struggling with school, acts act out in violence, not having Children, not getting married, dropping out. I mean, I just went through a quick list and you have a, a more comprehensive list. This, this is something people need to know. Look when we do something. So there's going to be a reaction to it and to think that we're gonna lift a vacuum and that we're just gonna go off and find another mate and everybody's gonna live happily ever after is a fantasy one. It is absolutely a fantasy. And honestly they can, I, I think most parents, if they actually knew how damaging that the divorce and separation could be to their Children. I, I don't think they would go down that route. I think so often. They have no idea. And there's this myth that if divorce is better for the parents, it's better for the Children too. And there was a researcher at the University of California at Berkeley, you know, not exactly a conservative stronghold, but they studied this problem of divorce for over 25 years and they published their findings in a great book called The Unexpected uh uh yeah. The Unexpected legacy of divorce. The unexpected legacy of divorce is the book. And what she found is that no divorce absolutely is devastating and damaging to the Children. In fact, going into the research, excuse me, going into the research, she expected to find that divorce had a minimal effect on the Children and that if it even did have a bigger effect, that effect would be short lived and, you know, uh temporary. And so what she found through the research is that that's absolutely not true. In fact, she said that that the effects from divorce are life altering and they last a lifetime and they're often injured in silence, which is part of the reason why I think parents aren't aware of this one, I think as a culture. We've just normalized divorce but two um they, no one talks about it. And so I'm glad we're talking about it on the show. Um We, you know, have a podcast where we bring people on to the show to share their stories about how their parents divorce has affected them. And it's never done one thing. I want to clarify to everyone listening. It's never done to hate our parents. I don't hate my parents. I love my parents. I ask my guests, do you hate your parents? They always say no, they love their parents. But in order to kind of work through this and to heal and to grow and to hopefully strengthen our relationship with our parents, we have to face these hard truths, these uncomfortable truths that we were damaged by people who love us. And so again, if parents knew how devastating this could be for their Children, I don't think they would go down that route. And that researcher from the University of California Berkeley, she proved that. She says that parents like to believe that if they are unhappy in their marriage, the Children will also be unhappy. Conversely, if divorce is better for them, it will be better for the Children. But she says things don't work that way. You know, Children frequently do not share their parents concerned with the problematic marriage while divorce brings pain into their lives that until now has gone unrecognized. And she says that we are allowing the Children to bear the psychological, economic and moral brunt of divorce. Yeah. I mean, it, it, it's, you know, you can look at study after study what broken families do do. Right. Especially to, especially to Children, whether it's the pregnancy rate, the crime, you know, being incarcerated, it just goes on and on and it's just so sad and I think, you know, and I've told my kids this, um, look, you're gonna marry somebody who comes from a divorced family. I'm not saying you don't ever do it, but you better work out really hard before you say I do. How have they coped with it? Can they get the help? I mean, make sure that you're marrying somebody who understands really the trauma that they've gone through and they're dealing with it in a realistic way because as you mentioned in your book, the high, the, the likelihood of being divorced after coming from a divorced family is, is significantly higher. It is. Yeah. And some estimates are 2-3 times higher than a normal person, which is already high, especially in the United States, which is terrifying and I love what you said and, and that's why this conversation isn't just relevant to parents who have been divorced and have seen how their kids have been affected by it. It's not just relevant to the kids themselves who have gone through it, but also like you said, any future spouses maybe you're dating someone right now or engaged or married to someone who comes from a broken home. And this, having insight into this problem into this trauma, which we need to call it a trauma. It's very much so a trauma, having insight into it will help you to love them better. It will help strengthen your relationship. It will help you to encourage them to heal their Brokenness. Because deacon, one of the things that I've learned in marriage is that I am the lid on my marriage. My marriage will only be as healthy, happy and holy as I am individually and my spouse as well. But if I'm broken, if I'm struggling, then my marriage is going to be broken and struggling too. Our relationships tend to reflect our personal personal condition. And so if we want great marriages, but I think we all do. We want great relationships, meaningful, driving intimate relationships, we got to do that hard work of digging into our Brokenness. And so often what I see is, people aren't even aware of how broken they are and they certainly don't connect the dots between the, the Brokenness, what they struggle with today to the breakdown of their parents', marriage and their family. And I can tell you with 100% certainty, there is an intimate connection. And once you go into that, whether that's through counseling or through some sort of a community or even just on your own, through prayer and through reflection and just hearing good content on the topic. Unless you go into that, uh, we're not gonna grow, we're not gonna heal, we're not gonna move forward and, and we're really gonna struggle to have those relationships, those marriages that we all of us long for. Well, and in the end, right, as spouses, we're supposed to be helping each other get to heaven and modeling that and helping our Children get there as well. We don't model it when we cut and run the first time things get difficult. We don't model a marriage with Christ at the center when it's all about me, myself and I are my three favorite people that just leads to a path of destruction. So it really is. I think this book is a great reminder to us about, you know, what we need to do. But you talk about the spiritual aspects of it too and the importance of having a good faith life, a good spiritual life. Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah. Absolutely. I, I think on a human level we can heal a lot. The world of psychology has a lot of great things to offer us, the self help, self help and that world has some good things to offer. I think God gave them a lot of gave us a lot of those things. Some of them get a little bit weird. So be careful. But, um, but I think there's a lot of good things on a human level, but ultimately, we're gonna hit a ceiling. We're only gonna be able to go so far on a human level. And so we really need God's grace in our lives. We need God's life in our souls and he could heal us in ways that we can never heal ourselves. And so often what I see, it's young people who come from broken families, they're so often opposed to a relationship with God because of really what they went through in their family. Um One way to think of it is this way when we're Children, the most powerful creatures that we know are our parents. And so we tend to think well, if they're like this, then God must be like this too. And so we project, you know, their image onto God. And so we can have this extra distorted image of God, which we need to work through. We need to first, you know, identify, become aware of, ok, God's not gonna be like my dad who just upped and left with another woman one day. But like on a subconscious level, so many of us are dealing with that. And it's a serious barrier in having an intimate, deep relationship with God. And again, a lot of people aren't even aware of that. So we have to, we have to first recognize what those issues are and then try to seek the truth whether that's through the sacraments through scripture, through the lives and the writing of the saints. But we really do need that intimate relationship with God. And so one of the things I would encourage anyone listening, who especially comes from a broken family, talk to God about the struggles. You've been through like one of the things I've done at through years of prayer and spiritual direction is I've had to ask God like God, where were you in the midst of all this Brokenness and drama and tension in my family? Like where were you? Because honestly, I felt like he just abandoned me. I felt like he was just sitting on the sidelines of watching me get my teeth kicked in because I was struggling in so many ways with the breakdown of my family. And so what I learned after, you know, years of just wrestling with this and prayer is that he wasn't just there sitting on the sidelines watching me suffer. He was right there with me in the midst of it. And so I learned that, you know, sometimes God's only response to our pain is his presence. I learned that from Father Mike Schmidt. And I think it's so true. And so we really need to go back into those memories into that trauma and see like God, where were you, where were you? And if you feel anger towards God, I think that's understandable. Um But, but don't make that uh allow you to run from him, like, draw close to him, take that anger to him, talk through it with him. And for me and a lot of the people that we work with through restored, uh, it's so fruitful when you actually do that, it's not a one and done conversation, but it's something that you can go back to again and again, I think for a lot of Catholics especially, we kind of put on this pious face of, well, I just need to kneel straight and keep my hands folded and, you know, I just need to obey and I think that there's something really good about that and beautiful, but we really need to go into those difficult parts of our lives and into our hearts and bring that stuff to God because he sees it anyway. He knows what we're feeling. He knows what we're thinking. We might as well just give him something that he doesn't have, uh which is our hearts because so often we just hold back. Um because of the pain and suffering in our lives, which, you know, deacon as, you know, what the biggest barrier to face is that problem of pain. And so we really need to bring that to him and talk through it with him and a good spiritual director. Yeah, I mean, the church does talk a lot about redemptive suffering and so we do need to look at that those suffering is, is wasted right in, it's all about the cross that we've been given to draw closer to Christ. The reminder is when we hide it, when we try to deny it, then we're playing right into the hands and the lies of the evil one who says, don't shine light on this, right? You're the only one going through this, you're just gonna have to suffer. And I think this book kind of shines the light. I mean, people need to hear that they're not the only ones going through this. And that's a lot of times what we think when we come into a struggle that we're the only ones and no one will understand. That's why to go to your website to read your book, to read Leila Miller's book. These things will shed light on you're not alone. And I think that might be one of the most important messages people need to hear. Absolutely. I recently interviewed a guest on our podcast and it brought her to tears to, to hear that she's not alone and there's nothing wrong with her for feeling the way that she does about her parents', divorce and the breakdown of their family. So often, you know, when we feel rejected or not enough or abandoned by our parents, we tend to think something's wrong with us, especially because well intentioned people will come up to us and say, well, it's for the best. Everyone's happier, you know, like now you have twice as many Christmas gifts and two homes. And, you know, they try to make this into a really good thing. And, uh, again, I think they're well intentioned in saying that, but it's actually really harmful. And so it's really free, like you said to hear, you're not alone and there's nothing wrong with you for feeling the way that you do. Uh, Victor Frankel, the Austrian psychiatrist who wrote a, you know, man search for meaning an incredible book. He said that an abnormal response to an abnormal situation is normal. Meaning, you know, if you feel broken and hurt by the breakdown of your family, there's nothing wrong with you. It's your, in fact, your your mind, your body is, is reacting properly uh to a very traumatic event in your life. And so anyone listening out there who's been through this, just know that you're not alone, this is not your fault. There's nothing you did to cause it, there's nothing you could have done sadly to prevent it from happening. And you know, as much as you might want to, uh you can't fix your parents' marriage. That's something they have to do on their own. You can certainly try to influence them in positive ways and just be a good example to how you would hope they would live their lives, but you can't do it for them. They have to take ownership of that. And so hearing, hearing that you're not alone, hearing that it's not your fault hearing that. There's nothing strange with you for feeling that way, I think is really helpful. And if, if you want to hear more um encouragement like that, our podcast is a great place. It's called Restored, Helping Children of Divorce. Wherever you listen to podcasts, you can find it again, that's restored, helping Children of divorce. And that interview that I mentioned with that uh young woman, it, it was really free for her to hear that and I hope it would be for you too. Yeah. No, I strongly encourage people to go on your website, listen to the podcast. I've done that and, you know, I've been fortunate, I haven't come from that environment, but you can. But I think even if you haven't listening to it, you'll feel the pain that people have and you'll be able to address it in a way which is more helpful. Unlike what you're saying, let's just throw material things at it and say that fixes it. I think the other thing that your book does a really good job on and we only have a couple minutes. I can't believe it is setting up proper boundaries, right? You are not your parents counsel, you are not their confidant that you need to be able to set boundaries so that you can heal as opposed to carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders. Right. Absolutely. And, uh for so many of us who really love our parents and who wanna help them. We can fall into these traps that honestly they can, they, they look like we're loving and helping our parents such as becoming their confidant, but we don't have time to get into the research. But what the research shows is that if you as a child act almost as a spouse to your parent, it's so damaging, not only for you but also for them and your relationship eventually, even though it might feel like in the moment that you're helping them eventually, it's going to create very unhealthy dynamics, unhealthy dependencies that should not be there. And so if you're a child and your mom and your dad is leaning on you in that way, what I suggest and what, what we've seen work in the lives of young people is try to redirect them to the proper support. Maybe that's a counselor, a pastor, a friend, you know, a relative, someone like that. And so what something you can say to your mom and your dad, you could say mom, dad, you know, I love you. I see that you're hurting. I see this is really difficult for you. But, but I can't be the one to support you in this way. Like I, I wanna love you, but it's gonna have to be in another way like who can you talk to about all of this stuff? And it might be kind of off putting when you tell your parents that but like Deacon said, we need those healthy boundaries in place in order to ultimately have a better healthier relationship with mom or dad. So that's one struggle, another struggle is bad mouthing. So many parents, they're hurt by their spouse and so they drag the kids into it. They kind of force the kids to pick sides. They say really nasty things about the other parent. And so any parents listening right now, please stop that. Uh I get that you're hurt and I can't imagine what you're going through. It must be so difficult, but that's not, that's gonna damage your kids even more. And I know you don't want to do that. I know all your parents listening would take a bullet for your kids. And so the badmouthing I, I get that you might need to vent, go talk to a friend and go talk to a counselor, go talk to a relative, someone else but not your kids that can be so damaging for them. And then finally, one of the other most common things that we've seen and this goes for parents as well as kids is the middle man. So so often as kids are put in the middle between our parents because maybe our parents aren't on speaking terms and that can just be so stressful and damaging. And I've played that role. I've seen my siblings play, play that role. And so parents listening, keep your kids out of it if you can't talk directly to your spouse. Go through another intermediary through your lawyer. Through again, a relative, a friend counselor, whoever big thanks to Respect Life Radio for allowing us to rea that interview and you can check them out at Respect Life radio dot com. And again, the book that we discussed in the interview is called It's Not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents', divorce. And after reading it, teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents, divorce or separation, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems. They'll learn healing tactics to help them feel whole again, how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions about their future. And the content itself is based on research, expert advice and real life stories. So again, if you want to buy the book, you can go to restored ministry dot com slash books, we're also giving away the first chapters for free. So if you go to restored ministry dot com slash books or just click on the link in the show notes, you can either buy it or get the first chapters for free. Right? This episode is a wrap. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

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#092: Is Divorce Good or Bad for Children? | Katy Faust

Is divorce good or bad for children? There’s tons of confusion around that question. In this episode, speaker and author Katy Faust offers answers with clarity and tons of research.

Is divorce good or bad for children? There’s tons of confusion around that question. In this episode, speaker and author Katy Faust offers answers with clarity and tons of research. She also touches on:

  • How does divorce affect the children?

  • Is divorce really worse than the death of a parent? 

  • What do children need that marriage provides?

  • How do you navigate speaking about your parents in a respectful yet honest way?

  • What’s your advice to parents considering divorce?

Buy Katy’s book: Them Before Us: Why We Need a Global Children's Rights Movement

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Is divorce good or bad for Children? There's tons of confusion around that question. But thankfully in this episode, speaker and author Katie Foss offers answers with clarity and tons of research to that question. She also answers. How did divorce become so prevalent? It's divorce really worse than the death of a parent. Really interesting discussion and research around that. What do Children need that marriage provides as a child? How do you navigate? Speaking about your parents in a respectful yet honest way and what's your advice to parents considering divorce? Tons of great content, had a lot of research. So keep listening. Welcome to the resort podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce, separation or broken marriage so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Julie Pontarelli. This is episode 92. As I mentioned, my guest today is Katie Faus. Katie is the founder and president of them before us, a global movement defending children's right to their mother and father. She publishes, speaks and testifies widely on why marriage and family are matters of justice for Children. Her articles have appeared in Newsweek USA today, the Federalist Public discourse, the Daily Signal, the Washington examiner, the American Mind and the American Conservative Katie helped design the teen edition of Kenya Vox which studies sex, marriage and relationships from a natural law perspective. She is the author of the book. Then before us, why We need a global children's rights movement. She and her husband are raising their four Children in Seattle. So without waiting any longer, here's my conversation with Katie Katie. It's so good to have you on the show. I've wanted this for a while. So thank you for making time to join us. Well, on our little free chat here, I just realized that I've been a fan of yours for, I probably saw you like, right when you first launched because once you started talking like, wait a second, I've been on that website. So it's a joy to be with you. Thank you so much. Now you're the bigger deal and we're big fans. So thank you for the work that you're doing and I'm so excited to learn from you. I'd like to start with your story if that's okay. Like so many of us listening, even your trauma in your life, including your parents, divorce. What happened there and how did it affect you? First of all, I'm so glad that you understand that divorce is traumatic. You know, the narrative that our culture tells about divorce and really all forms of modern family is the kids will be fine. The kids will be happy if the adults are happy. And the reality is, as you know, the research shows that this is a deeply traumatic life altering event for kids and not only is it a one time event, it usually leads to multiple losses and transitions and other forms of trauma and, and lost. So you're just, you're framing is exactly right. And I'm so grateful that teens and young adults are coming to get validation from you because literally there's just hardly any sources in the world that will even tell kids that. Yeah, you are wrong to feel hurt about this. So, my parents were married until I was 10. I was clueless. I had no idea there was anything wrong and it was just, you know, some kids know and some kids don't and I was just absolutely oblivious and our parents sat down, um, and told me one night that they were getting a divorce and I was devastated. My world was absolutely rocked. Um, I ended up having like physical symptoms the first year afterwards of bizarre stomach pains that would like just, just come out of nowhere and debilitate me in the middle of a play date. And I remember my, my dad having to like, carry me places because I couldn't walk, you know, and I remember this one time where I was sitting in class ready to do like a, like a test and the teacher said, okay, pick up your pencils okay and go And then like, five seconds later, pencils down, it's time to stop. And I was like, what? And like 20 minutes had gone by and I hadn't even realized that, you know what I mean? Like, I just was so lost in the sadness and the upheaval of my life and this new reality. So my and I was petrified because the only kind of divorces that I had ever seen were the kind of divorces where the dad moves away, or the kid sees their dad once a month or only on the weekends. And my dad and I were really close, my mom and I were really close and so I was just so afraid that I was gonna lose, especially my dad, you know, so long story, they actually had a very amicable divorce and lived very close to one another. I could go see whichever one I wanted whenever I wanted. And so I ended up remaining in pretty close relationship with both of them throughout honestly, through the rest of my life. And for that, I'm very, very grateful. But, you know, the story is always, is not just That one time event of we're now getting divorced, it's really what ends up being nonstop change and instability after that. Right? So my father dated, he had, had a lot of several different girlfriends and then remarried. But very soon after the divorce, my mom re partnered with a woman and they have been in a relationship together ever since then, since I was 10. And so they've been a really big part of my life with the remaining of my adolescent years and then as a young, married and as a young mother and now as a mother of teenagers, so we, we've got it all going on and my husband's from a divorced home too, but his was not the kind of divorce, like my parents could still be in the same room together and we would sometimes spend holidays together. But for his parents, it was war, you know, and not just war with each other, but they used him against the other parent. So, you know, even though my story sounds somewhat dramatic, he had a more of a conventional, you know, both of his parents remarried heterosexual and it was very, very hard. I mean, his heart, they divorced when he was three and his mother actually was killed suddenly when he was 16. And he would probably say that the divorce was more traumatic than his mother's death. So we are definitely in that camp of people who are seeking to parent the family. We wish we had had as kids. We want to be the people who were, you know, especially my husband when we were dating. He would say, are you serious about this relationship? Because my Children will never live through what I've lived through. If we get married, it is forever and I'm, and I mean, he would just have me like, recommit all through our dating and engagement. He's like I am not going to do this unless you are all in because he vowed that his Children wouldn't live through what he lived through. Wow. Incredible. Thank you for sharing and man, yeah, my heart breaks for you and for your husband and I can relate on so many levels. And you know, I know uh in the book, in your book, you mentioned so clearly how there's really no such thing as a good divorce, even if some are less dramatic. And so what we'll get into all that for sure, especially the difference between low conflict and high conflict. That's a really important distinction that you make so clearly in your book. But I wanted to stop for a second on a pain point that our listeners deal with a lot and that is talking about this topic at all. So I'm curious how you as a public figure, talk about this topic, navigate, speaking about your parents in particular in a respectful, yet an honest way because like I said, there's a painful point for our listeners where we want to be honest, truthful about what we've been through that our parents actions and decisions harmed us, but still honor them because we love them. Like we want to respect them, we want the best for them. So how do you navigate that little trip? The ministry trade because when I am not doing children's rights advocacy, I'm deeply involved in church. My husband's a pastor, we do tons of counseling. I do tons of walking with people in difficult situations and you know, the women's ministry world in my life. We've got a little saying that says you don't need to tell everybody everything, but you do need to tell somebody everything. And so somebody needs to hear every little corner of the pain and the confusion and the loss that you've experienced. It's good to do that with a counselor, but it's I would say better to do it with a trusted friend. You've got to let somebody in, right? Because the areas where people don't get to come in those areas very quickly start to control you. So I think that you should tell somebody everything but probably not publicly. So for my situation, it actually is fairly easy for me to speak well of my parents because there's some things that I'm not going to share about them. You know, some aspects of things leading up to their divorce, post divorce. That's just not my information to share. So I don't, I can talk honestly about kind of give an overview of how it impacted me the divorce. But the reality is I don't share their dirt. I just don't, but I can absolutely share the things that they did. Well, like both of them remained very connected to me. Very intentional. They were, they did their best to live at peace with one another. And I will also say this, that as they re partnered and remarried, neither of them, they did a very good job of making clear that their new partners were not my parent, right? I had a mother and a father. Neither of their new partners or, or spouses ever tried to replace or step into the role of my mom and dad, which I thought was very smart. So I think that, that my parents, you know, obviously it was the undoing of the home that I loved, you know, and wanted every child wants their mom and dad to love them and love each other. That's, I mean, like, I've never heard it more simply than that. I'll tell you what every kid wants. They want their mom and dad to love them and they want their mom and dad to love each other. That's it. And if they're not loving each other, right. That's a, that's a sort of a death for the child in some ways. But even if they weren't loving each other, at least they continued loving me and I still had a full relationship with both of them. Beautiful. Thanks for that advice. That is helpful. And are you familiar with the podcast? The place we find ourselves? It's a great podcast. Yeah, it's a great podcast. He's a therapist out in Colorado and he really makes healing simple, which I love. And so he talks about trauma and how you heal from. And one of the things he teaches is that neurobiologists have found that um one measure of brain health is neural connectivity. So for everyone listening, if you imagine your brain is like a web of connections, the more connections you have, the healthier, your brain, the healthier you are as a person. And he says that the act of reflecting on your story in a constructive way. Um And in addition to that, telling your story to someone who can receive in an empathetic way, actually heals your brain because it increases connectivity, thereby making you healthier more whole. And so I think that advice is fantastic and we're big proponents of that as well. So I love that I want to shift gears to your book if that's okay. So in the chapter on divorce, the main point you really make throughout that whole chapter is that divorce is traumatic and it's bad for Children like we said at the top of the show and you prove it so clearly. So I'd like to get into some of that proof. But before we do, I want to give you the chance to elaborate a little bit more on what you just said, which is, you know, what is it that marriage provides for Children that they need so badly? You mentioned it already. But I want to give you a chance to go and if you don't mind. I'll back up a couple more steps and just say what I do if that's okay. So, back when the whole marriage debate was raging, um, in 2012 kind of first came on my radar. Um, what I heard people saying, you know, in, in an effort to advance gay marriage is kids don't care if they have two moms or two dads. And what that means is kids don't care if they've lost their mom or dad. Because every time you're looking at a picture of a kid with two dads, you're looking at a kid with no mom. Every time you're looking at a picture of kids with moms, you're looking at a picture of a child who has lost their father. And you know, we've been doing youth ministry and I have a background in adoption work. And I think there's very few things kids care more about than being loved and known by their mom and dad. And so to me, it was just this huge, it was like the weaponization of child pain to advance a political agenda. And I totally couldn't handle it. It like it enraged me. And so it got me into writing about the importance of mothers and fathers. And then because I realized that the whole marriage debate around gay marriage especially obsessively focused on what adults want. But then the more that I did like research and on all of this, I realized everything that has to do with marriage and family is always focused on obsessively on what the adults want, whether you're talking about like reproductive technologies, it's so focused on the pain and the longing of people with infertility, you know, or people with same sex attraction that want to have a child or cohabitation or polygamy or like all of these different topics, everything we hear about, it always has to do with elevating adult feeling, desire, longing, identity above the well being of kids. And you can see that plainly in the conversation around divorce. It is always about what the adults want, what's going to meet their needs. It's their suffering, it's their longing, it's their new romance, it's their unfulfilled part that always takes center stage and the kids just have to stick it and it makes me so angry. You know, I'm like all of us. I am surrounded by kids who are, who have just been told their parents are divorcing, who have been in this process for a year or two, who are 10 or 20 years out of it and it very often leads leaves a lifelong wound. So my I started a nonprofit in 2018 in essence saying that Children have a right to their mother and father and every question about marriage and family, whether it's the definition of marriage, how we think about divorce, same sex, parenting, sperm donation, egg donation, surrogacy, adoption, polygamy. Every conversation we have about marriage and family in essence boils down to matters of justice for Children. And that is, are you protecting children's right to their mother and father or are you violating children's rights to their mother and father? So we wrote a book about that. We, me and my co author Stacey that goes through each of those topics. Chapter one is just all about why Children do have a natural right to their mother and father. And it's not a stretch, it's a pretty well established, nearly universally agreed upon principle. Chapter two is all about why biology matters in the parent child relationship. And this is pretty relevant probably to your audience because they have experienced the dissolution of their parents', marriage of their two biological parents. And then very often they have begun to be parented by somebody who was unrelated to them in a handful of redemptive cases that has gone well because that unrelated adult is genuinely seeking to step into the child's life in a way that is redemptive, but in the majority of cases that has not increased child well being. And that's because research shows that unrelated adults are less protective, less connected, less invested in Children than their own mother and father. In. Chapter three, we talk about why gender matters in the parent child relationship, why moms and dads offer distinct and complementary benefits. And then we talk about why marriage is a matter of justice for Children because it is the only institution that unites the two people to whom Children have a natural, right? So it's on that foundation that we then talk about divorce. And so we go right into divorce right after that, right? Because if you're talking about the legal movement to destroy the family that didn't begin with same sex marriage that began with no fault, divorce, no fault. Divorce was the original redefinition of marriage. That is when we started to transform what used to be the most child friendly institution the world has ever known marriage into just another vehicle of adult fulfillment. So that's, that's sort of like leading up to divorce and like kind of the foundation needed to know before we address divorce, let's say with no fault, divorce for a second. How did that come about? Because you say in the book that divorce was once a rarity, it wasn't a very common thing but that all changed with no fault divorce like you just mentioned. So what is no fault, divorce versus at fault divorce? And how did that all come about? Most places, most laws, civil and religious have recognized that there are times when a marriage might need to dissolve, you know, biblically, there was exceptions for adultery or that was a justifiable reason to end a marriage. In terms of our civil law, we have largely regarded the three A's adultery abuse, abandonment, right? That if you were guilty of breaking your marriage vow to have and to hold in richer for poorer sickness and health till death. Do you part? Right? That's your vow. And if you violated the vow because you were abusive because there was adultery or because you abandoned the family or your spouse, society and civil government would punish you. Right? And so what that did is this at fault divorce standard actually pressured the couple to keep their marriage together because what would happen if dad ran off with the secretary? Well, first of all the courts wouldn't give him 50% custody in the house and society would look down on him and say you are, that is a home wrecking floozy. You need to go back to your wife and kids. How dare you do this to them? Right. So that's sort of the at fault model where somebody is deemed at fault for breaking up the marriage. Well, the problem was in the late sixties, especially you had people that were simply unhappy in their marriages and they wanted a divorce. But because no fault, divorce, divorce was not an option, they would then have to sort of lie and say, well, James had an affair and that's why we're getting a divorce, but James really hadn't had an affair. They just both wanted out of the marriage. And so we began with no fault, divorce going well, this is so mean adults have to lie and say they did something that they didn't do. Let's create something called no fault, divorce where you can get out of the marriage when nobody is at fault of abuse, adultery, abandonment. And so that's more humane, right? And actually Ronald Reagan was the first governor to legalize this in California in 1969 because he himself had to go through a situation where they got a at Fault divorce when nobody was at Fault because he wanted out of one of his marriages. So what that led to was an absolute explosion of divorces and no fault, divorce very quickly became divorce against your will, right? Instead of it both parties knowing, you know what? I just don't think this is working for us. No fault. Divorce meant that almost always there was an innocent party or somebody that was desperately trying to make the marriage work and hold the family together and be a responsible parent and one party that just wanted out and simply wasn't willing to do the hard thing on behalf of the family and the kids. But the no fault divorce model Required that both spouses be treated equally. There was no favor given to the innocent spouse or the faithful spouse. The judge was required to split things 5050 or award 50% custody or split the assets down even though very often there was one spouse who was misbehaving or not adhering to their vows. So Reagan later went on and said that was the biggest mistake of his political career was legalizing no fault, divorce because it had such a devastating impact all across the country. Wow. Fascinating in that background. No. Reading your book. That was, I was learning that for the first time even with this work that I do. So, it was so insightful and helpful. And I think one of the things I've heard, a lot of people say when, when this topic comes up with no fault, divorce is that, you know, they say without no fault, divorce, spouses, especially women will be stuck in abusive marriages. What's your response? It is true that it is sometimes hard to prove abuse. My concern with that argument is if there is abuse going on and you get divorced through no fault system, there's no way to keep the child from the abusive parent. There's really abuse going on. It must be proved they lose custody because to me it's not enough to say, well, he's abusive, he's unstable. I'm going to get a no fault divorce and get out of this. When the kids still going to have to deal with that, they're just not going to have the buffer of the same responsible parent. So there are some cases where I know where some women have left abusive marriages through no fault, divorce. I would rather have it be an at fault divorce and we punish the guy, punish him if there is real abuse going on, he needs to be punished and he needs to be put in prison. So I do think that sometimes very often whether it's so called emotional abuse or some other kind of physical abuse, oftentimes that abuse is a veil for, I just want to get out of here, but I don't want to look like morally responsible, especially the emotional abuse. You know, I'm like, look, I've been around the block enough time. I have counseled people and struggling marriages. I know that some of those people say this is emotional abuse. And I'm like, you know, it's not, it's a legitimate disagreement or it's a personality difference or it's a, you're actually asking for something destructive and unreasonable. And he is saying, no, that's not emotional abuse. That's somebody willing to go along with what you're saying. So I do agree that there are some times where people use no fault, divorce to get out of a marriage that they should leave or at least a separation. But very often those claims of abuse are not what they, what they seen. And legally, I would rather have the abuse be proved so the guy can go to jail. Yeah. No, it makes so much sense how that would end up being better for the Children especially. And on that topic, I love how you bring in the research on this, the difference between low conflict and high conflict, divorce. I think this is really important to understand because I think a lot of people perhaps assume that the majority of divorces are high conflict situation where there's abuse, there's a threat of death, there's violence, there's, you know, a lot of overt problems and drama at home, but that's not the case. Talk about that. I think that, you know what we see from a lot of media. I think the perception we have is that divorce takes place in these extreme cases, right, where it's a serial cheater or there's abuse going on. And the reality is 70% of divorces break up low conflict marriages, right? The majority of divorces that take place today are not these extreme cases. The majority of them are people who have fallen out of love or who are unwilling to do the hard work. And to be clear, it is hard work. It is hard if you're in a marriage where there's job loss or financial challenges or porn addiction or emotional affairs going on or unpacking childhood baggage. I mean, the reality is you make the vow because it is hard. And the reality is that most divorces take place because somebody is unwilling to do the hard work. And what we say in the book and what we say in our ministry, in our in our organization is it is hard, like keeping a marriage together is difficult. But if the adults are unwilling to do the hard work in those low conflict marriages, what they are saying is this cross is too heavy for me here, kids, you take it instead, it is simply a transference of the hard work. That's so true. And I see that day in day out and the young people that we serve, that we mentor. It's, it's such a transference and you know, there's so many painful stories even in your book. You know, I hear this stuff all the time. Kitty but reading that chapter and divorce in your book, I had to like take some breaks and be like, this is so sad how much these Children suffer so oft in silence because no one's speaking for them. So I'm grateful that you are since you're such a so knowledgeable on statistics. I was wondering about the divorce rate. That's something that comes up a lot. What is the divorce rate currently? And are there any challenges to getting those statistics these days? Because I know there's been some changes in the way that we collect? Well, first of all, let me just say that I had done a lot of research on same sex parenting and I had really been in the reproductive technology world before I wrote the book. And divorce was probably the area where I was the least familiar with the research and it was the divorce chapter that I had to step away from a couple of times. It was the divorce chapter that I was like, and it's not like it's not like I don't have my own personal experience it's not like it's unfamiliar to me in terms of the lives of people around me. But I guess the research showed me the reality of what I had been seeing for a while. You know, the one statistic that really got me, That I was like that I've seen so many times is shows that in 50% of divorce cases, 50% of the kids who are living in two different homes because their parents divorced, 50% of them develop different personalities, right? They literally become a different person from their mother's house to their father's house because they have different religions. Mom and dad now have different political views. There's different secrets that kids have to keep at each house. There's people in their lives and very often they feel so close to the people at their mom's house and their dad's house, but the two people in those two worlds barely know the other one exists. And so they literally transform themselves into a different person between the drive from mom's house to dad's house. And that was when I just had to stop for a while because I saw that as a kid. I see it now in the lives of kids around me who are in a situation of divorce and it is an absolute cruelty. It's such a cruelty and the fact that we have allowed this to go on virtually unchallenged and unchecked for decades that we have wrecked a generation of kids over this and we never talk about it. It just, I'm generally a very nice person but you talk about these kinds of things and it enrages me because the harm to Children is so strong and so long lasting. So divorce, we did see a peak in terms of divorce rates. We have seen divorce drop in the last couple of decades, but it's not good news. The reason the divorce rate has dropped is because marriage rates have dropped and so fewer people are getting married. Therefore fewer people are getting divorced and fewer people getting married is bad because that means kids aren't being raised in marriages for the first few years of their life before their parents break up. They're being raised in cohabiting relationships before their parents break up. And Children in cohabiting households fair dramatically worse than kids raised in married households. So there's very little positive on the home front when it comes to marriage and divorce rates right now. Okay. Now, that makes so much sense and it is sad. I, yeah, there's so much to say here. One of the statistics that really stood out to me going back to what you said in the, in your book was about Children of divorce than repeating that cycle in their own lives. And I'll just read the snip if that's okay. It goes like this Children of divorce whose parents never remarried are 45% more likely to divorce and those whose parents whose divorced parents married, step parents were 91% more likely to divorce compared with adults raised an intact biological families. That blew me away. Any comments. I think it also blows me away. Right. You would think that a kid who watches their mom and dad divorce and then their mom remarries that they would go okay. Look, marriage is still worth doing marriage. You know, we can do this, but that's ultimately not what they conclude. If your parents divorce, it is going to set you back in terms of going. I don't know if like real love is even possible. But if you see one of your parents remarry, something about that literally makes it more likely that the child will say I can never, I can never get married myself. I should never get married myself. Is it because there is less connectedness investment in the step family situation? Is it because they feel like so much more of an outsider? Is it because marriage now leaves the impression that they'll never get what they really want, which is their own mom and dad getting back together again? I don't know. I can't explain that statistic, but it's not really an argument that you can make from the data if you are a parent who has divorced and you hope and you, and, and it was against your will and you love the institution of marriage and you believe that marriages are wonderful and good. You should probably stay single. You should probably not get remarried because somehow that damages your child's own opinion of the institution of marriage in a way that your divorce didn't. Yeah. And it's a very unpopular thing to say, but there's so much truth in it and it's true. Love requires sacrifice. This whole idea that the purpose of marriage is happiness is just so false and we need to speak out against it whenever we can. Doesn't mean that happiness isn't a part of marriage. It's a good thing to experience joy within marriage. It's not gonna be a fairy tale. And I think especially people in Michael or my generation, I think we were kind of sold on that idea where even though we saw the, you know, misery of a lot of marriages and divorces and just broken families, we had this hope somewhere inside of us. I know I experienced like that simultaneous like terror and fear. Um And at the same time, just like a desire to build something so much better. Yeah, it became almost an idol to me. It was this, you know, this thing that I wanted to be perfect and be so different. So the opposite of what I saw in my parents' marriage, um that it just became this kind of fantasy that I was trying to build. And then I realized love is messy. You know, marriage is messy. We've been married about five years at this point. And uh I've learned that it's, it's not easy, but there's so much beauty in that. And we all know that the hardest things in life, you know, the best things in life are often hard. And so, you know, ask any Navy Seal, ask any Olympic gold medalist how they got to where they are. They didn't do it by sitting on the couch watching Netflix, like they showed up every day they put in the hard work, especially when they didn't feel like it. What should we expect any less in marriage? Well, and you know, we are almost at 25 years in our marriage. It is beautiful and we were idiots when we got married, we were total idiots. We had never seen a healthy marriage, lived out in our home and we had a few examples as kids that we could, you know, and there was one family in particular in my husband's life who showed him what he deserved and it was formative for him. But once we got married, we needed discipleship in this area of our life. So at the different churches that we went to, we would find a couple that was 10 years ahead of us or 15 years ahead of us who had a great marriage. And we were just like, tell us what to do, tell us how to do this. We gave them permission to show us what we were doing wrong. And there would be women that would, that I gave permission to hold me accountable and she would pull me aside after a conversation and she'd say things like, do you see how you undermined your husband in front of his friend? Don't ever do that again? You know, like I needed somebody to just give me tailored advice about this. So it's totally possible. But a lot of us need that recalibration, right? The recalibration of its impossible, it will never happen. But also the recalibration of it's ideal, this is going to save you, right? So you've got to have and the only way you're going to get that is with wise people who have gone before you who can give you that tailored moment by moment advice. So good, I love it. We want to start this program called The School of Love where we pair up young people who come from broken families with healthy marriages and families. So they could just spend time, go over maybe a couple times a month, have a meal with them, help out with chores around the house just to like soak in like you said, they're example, which just again programs you on a subconscious level and how to love, how to build relationships, how to build because like you said, more than anyone else, we learned how to love and how to build relationships and how to build marriages through our parents example. Again, even on a subconscious level but thankfully that programming can be rewritten, the script can be changed. And uh and we believe in that so deeply. So that's something I'd love to talk to you more about that sometimes. That's something that we will at some point because It's a trend we've seen in this podcast, like in the 90 plus interviews we've done at this point. So many people say, you know, it was so formative, like you said, so healing to spend time with this healthy family, with this married couple that wasn't perfect, but they had a really good, beautiful marriage. And that was the same for me. There were two couples who to this day just have so much love and respect for who gave me hope that love could last that it was possible and even showed me by their example of how to do it myself. So, so helpful. Thanks for that tip and to everyone listening, find those people in your life who you can look up to, you can mentor you. And you'd probably be surprised how willing they are to help you if you just ask, start with building that relationship. But in time you can be more intentional and say, hey, you know, I would go to the to the men in the marriage especially and I'd say, hey, I want a good marriage. You know, I come from a broken family. Would you mind mentoring me and helping me here and there? And they were still willing to give good advice. So great, great tip. I want to go back to the research in the limited time that we have together. So, you know, you've clearly demonstrated in the book shows you've researched this topic extensively. What have you learned about how divorce affects the Children in addition to everything else, we've already touched on how does it not affect the Children would be an easier question to answer. And the reality is that it affects Children on every level of their bodies. There's actually a stat that we give beginning of chapter two that talks about father loss, like they've actually studied father loss and in one of those death, divorce and incarceration where the kids that were surveyed in this study that had lost a father to death devils or incarceration and what they found, especially when that happened early on in life, that those Children had shorter telomeres, that is the end cap of their chromosome. So it literally affected Children on the cellular level and telomeres are responsible for health and longevity, right? Children who grow up daughters who grow up without their dad in their home, absent dad, maybe for divorce, maybe for some other reason, those girls end up beginning their menstrual periods on average a year earlier than other girls, right? There's something about father absence that triggers an early reproductive season. And couple that with the father hunger that Children, girls often go through when they don't have a dad. That is one reason why we see drastically higher rates of teen pregnancy in girls whose fathers are not living with them and connected to them. Physically, Children of divorce are more susceptible to getting like common colds, chronic illnesses, like it literally affects their physical health for the rest of their life. People who already had underlying mental health struggles, sometimes the divorce can lead to extreme mental health disorders. So it can be very serious. We obviously see a greater emotional burden on Children. Like I think most of us expect that there's going to be an emotional toll on the kids, but most people sort of conceptualize it as, oh, it's like a cold, it's, you know, the divorce is like a bad cold, they'll get over it. But that's not really what divorce does to a child's emotional state. Children who have divorced parents just have higher emotional challenges and emotional struggles than their peers who are living continually in one home who have never had to deal with that trauma and that destruction, that disruption, Children struggle in school, right. Divorce. We pulled in some, some surveys of test results, you know, for like the S A T s or the equivalent in the UK and these kids will say the divorce absolutely tanked my test scores, right? Kids really struggled academically and then relational e you know, you pulled out that study that shows that kids whose parents divorced the deck is stacked against them When it comes to forming and maintaining their own healthy relationships. And there's a quote, I mean, probably have 30 stories in the divorce chapter of kids who went through divorce. And there's one woman that said, the one thing that my parents divorce taught me if anybody can leave you any time and you'll never see it coming and there's nothing you can do about it. And if you learn that lesson from divorce, why would you ever try? Why would you ever risk forming your own family and getting married? And I actually think that it is because divorce was so with at epidemic levels, when our current millennials are now considering getting married for them, marriage looks so risky. Shacking up seems so low risk, right? When the reality is, it's the opposite, right? Shacking up having relationships have much higher levels of abuse, more, much higher levels of dissolution. The Children of cohabiting parents are more likely to be abused in the collected, more likely to live in poverty. Marriage is and still, you know, was and still is the safest avenue for especially women and Children. But when you've learned those lessons of your parents', divorce, marriage itself feels risky. So it said it's a no, there's nothing good. I mean, there are a few rare cases where separation or divorce might be necessary for the protection of one of the parties or the kids, but there's no child of divorce, overall, whatever situation that fares as well. Statistically as the child raised by their own married, biological mother and father, I love it. You know, it's so important to know this stuff. And for some reason, the myths out there in our culture just say the absolute opposite. And the point you made earlier about your husband's family and just how his mom was tragically killed, you know, when he was 16, that reminds me of the story you told in the book and the study that you quote, that found that the death of parent inflicts less psychological damage on a child um than a divorce does. And that again flies in the face of what our culture says about divorce, which is Children are resilient or if the divorce is better for the parents, it's better for the Children too. So elaborate on that, especially that study, which is fascinating. We're not saying of course that it, you know, you lose your parents tragic accident that that's not a really, really difficult and traumatic thing to go through. Of course, it is, but it's mind boggling that this would be even more traumatic. So why is that? You know, why is it that it's sometimes more traumatic to have parents who divorced? Well, when my husband's mother died, everybody mourned with him. He was not alone. There was so much validation. Everybody looked back and remembered his mother fondly. He had a lot of people who supported him in his loss. But if you look back at often divorce situations, very few people will validate the child's loss. Much of the messages that Children get are. Oh my goodness. You should be so happy that your parents are happy. You get to have two Christmases. Wow. Look at this incredible man that your mom has found now. In essence, the messages are all like you should support your parents, right? You need to validate and support your parents. You should celebrate what's going on with your parents. And so very often in those divorce situations, the child is alone in their grief, nobody's validating it. If one parent looks back at the other parent, it usually is not with fondness. It's often like, oh that man, right? It's a demonization of the child's parents instead. So that creates a huge psychological burden on the child because the child has, in both of those cases, the child has experienced very real loss and trauma. But in one of those cases, the child is surrounded by a community of people who are mourning and remembering together. And then the other one, the kid is absolutely on their own. And oftentimes the world is telling them the exact opposite of what they need to hear. 100% and what makes trauma so devastating on anyone, but especially young people is essentially what happens in the aftermath of it. You know, if like you said, there's people come around you and love you and walk with you through it. Um You're going to fare much better in life than like you said, if you're abandoned, if you're feel like you're rejected, unwanted, like all these things that happen when your parents get divorced and it's just so sad that um there's not more people out there who are talking about this. I'm so glad that you and your organization exists and I want to shift a little bit to parents listening. We have parents listening right now who are considering a divorce? Like right now they're listening, they're considering a divorce. What's your advice to them? You don't have to read my whole book. Just read chapter five. Don't think your kids are special. They're not. Your kids may, may not know you're considering divorce or maybe they're too afraid to tell you what they think because they desperately want your love. And it's very hard for a kid to be honest with their parents because they're so desperate, right for that. Maybe they can't even form the words. But the reality is somebody is going to do the hard thing in this situation. There's no easy answer here. Whatever you are going through, whatever struggle you're experiencing in your marriage, I will not minimize that. It is hard. I have been in a marriage myself. I have been surrounded by a variety of other marriages. The kind of struggles that married couples go through are very hard, especially in certain seasons, they usually don't last. But man, those seasons when you're in the fire feel like it feels like you've just got to get out. But the reality is either you will do the hard thing of working it through finding the healing, doing the counseling, doing your own self examination, changing your own behavior, changing your expectations or your kids will do hard things. Do not imagine a scenario where nobody does hard things. If you don't, your kids will. And if you do, there's a very good chance that things will be better. In a couple of years, we've got several studies at the end of the chapter that talk about remaining in a marriage even when you want to get out. And the very high rates of improvement and happiness if you can persist. But if you choose the no fault, divorce route, your Children will not have a year or two of struggle, they will have a lifetime of struggle. So you are swapping, doing the hard thing in your own marriage for a couple of years for their lifelong struggle. And that is not the narrative of a just decision making process, a just society or adjust family does not ask the week to sacrifice for the strong, you are the parents. You are the strong, you sacrifice for the week, you sacrifice for your Children because the only alternative is your kids sacrificing for you. And that is the no go zone. I can't agree more and there's more information in the book. If you guys want to pick that up, kid even dives into what researchers have to say about kind of that economy. Like if you're in a difficult situation, what's best for the Children, which I thought was fascinating, Amato and Booth in particular Kitty. I was thinking of. Um, did you want to go through that at all? About a motto? There are cases like those 30% of high conflict marriage cases where the child does experience some relief in the wake of a divorce, right? When there are plates being thrown across the kitchen, when there is extreme volatility, oftentimes the kids do experience relief post divorce. Um so you can work that through and talk that through with trusted counselors and advisers. But we have to dispel this idea but but even the kids that do come out of those high conflict marriages who then divorce. Those kids do not fare as well as the parents who worked it out and were able to stay together, right? So sometimes you have to get out. But this narrative that then the kids are going to be fine. No, those kids don't fare as well as the kids who were persistently raised by their married mom and dad. So like we said like there are cases where divorce may be the best option, but that is not the majority of divorces that are taking place today. Yeah, and I think it's assumed that it's, it's safe to assume in most cases that's not your case that work through every possible scenario. And even if you know, one of the things that we see in this um nonprofit that we run is even if there's a need for a temporary separation, that is a tool or a step toward healing the family, bringing the marriage back together, that might be necessary in some cases. Hopefully, that's not necessary, but it might be. And the goal though, which is the difference than what the culture says is to bring the family and the marriage back together instead of just saying, oh, it didn't work out this time. We'll try with someone else. I totally agree. Marriage isn't for the faint of heart. It's work. And like I said, especially in certain seasons, right? Most of us go through a for worse before we get to a for better. And so hopefully you're embedded in a, in a community that can disciple you correct. You encourage, you offer some relief, give you wise counsel, all of us needed. Yeah. So true. Getting at the end of our time together, what will happen to our culture if we continue down this path of this divorce and dysfunction in our families? And what's the solution? Well, we're already seeing it, Children that just can't function. You know, we are seeing rapid increases in all of the social ills that we supposedly care so much about whether it's teen homelessness or teen suicide or seeing pregnancy, child poverty. I mean, every one of those social ills have something in common and that is there overpopulated with fatherless Children and many of them got fatherless through divorce. This idea that post divorce, you're always going to be getting 50 50 with both parents and seeing them all of the time is an absolute myth for a large portion of Children two years after, you know, I think it's about 40% of kids, two years post divorce, they don't see their, their non custodial parent anymore. Very often. Divorce is what leads to the complete loss of a parent. So we are just not going to be able to fix any of the struggles that we have in society unless we get back to this idea that Children have a natural right to their mother and father lifelong marriage is the only way we give to them, the only way we get to them. And the same sex marriage debate has gotten a lot of attention and rightly so, but it didn't start with same sex marriage. It started with divorce. Divorce was the original legal wrecking ball of the lives of Children. And so one thing we do at them before us is we look for any opportunity we can to fight divorce because it really is a matter of justice for Children. So you guys keep doing what you're doing because these victims need healing. We need the support groups, we need the mentoring. We need people that are helping people resolve the trauma. But we also need advocacy. I am so honestly, I'm so sick of all of these laws on every topic going through the state capitals with nobody, nobody representing the child's perspective. Nobody advocating for. They're right. Nobody's saying, wait a second, the adults might like this but you're gonna shackle Children with lifelong loss. So divorce is a part of that. You know, wherever we can get in on it, we're going to get in on it because it is what has gone on through divorce in the lives of Children is wrecking their lives. It is literally, you know, we talk in the book about how there's three staples of a child, social emotional diet. Three things they need to be nourished on every single day if they are going to arrive at adulthood functional and ready to take on the world. And those three staples our mother's love, father's love and stability. Okay. If you're missing any one of those three things, kids are going to be emotionally malnourished, they're going to be at risk for all those social ills. They're not going to be able to function as well in life. What does divorce do? Takes away half of mom, half of dad and usually stability is totally gone right now. It's only instability as mom or dad re partner, remarry divorce again. Decouple again. Welcome. New half siblings. Welcome. New step slings, lose those siblings through another divorce. Dad moves to another state. Mom moves away. I mean, whatever it is like the stability is just gone for kids of divorce. How do we expect? Why do we expect society to function? Why do we expect to have thriving kids when we are starving our kids and divorce is um is a huge reason why our kids are emotionally malnourished today. I couldn't say it better. And one of the things I see so much is like when you're living a life of vice, you know, bad habits and you have this trauma in your life that hasn't been resolved, it hasn't been healed, hasn't been dealt with. You're going to go on and build broken relationships, dysfunctional relationships, you're gonna have a broken marriage, your family is not going to function in a healthy way. And so often what we've seen and you see these two KT is you're just going to repeat that cycle and that will happen for generations. And so we need to put an end to it. But on the flip side, this is where I think there's so much hope I want to end on this note. Looking at someone like yourself to, if you can build those good habits in your life, if you can heal that trauma, get the professional help that you need, continue to grow in little ways every day, then you're gonna be this healthy, whole person, you're going to go on and build strong relationships, good marriages and you know, healthy families. And that's what I believe is going to transform our culture. But we need both. We need the personal growth side of it. We need the activism, legal side. So I'm so glad you're doing what you're doing. I could never do it, but I'm happy to support you in that work. And however I can, I'm pleased to know that you, you have our support. So thank you so much. And I did want to give you a chance to tell us anything else about them before us, like about your mission and how people can get involved. Well, first, I will say I love this ministry. I'm so grateful you guys exist. I hope that anybody that's listening to this podcast, share with your friends who have gone through a divorce like they need to know they're not crazy. Like that's my biggest concern is that kids have divorced. They think everybody around me thinks that this is awesome. My parents are happy with their new partners or lovers or spouses. My life is wrecked but I just feel like nobody, everyone keeps saying, oh my gosh, you know, your dad's so lucky he found this woman or whatever it is and you are not crazy. You deserve to have a mom and dad who love each other and love you. You are made for that and obviously not obviously, you will experience loss and pain if you're not getting, even if the world doesn't support that you aren't crazy. You are the one that's right for feeling hurt and pain over this. And I will say, you know what you just talked about is repeating the cycle. We often say in my house and at church with our youth group, you become what you behold, whatever it is you're looking at, you will become like that, which is why so many Children of divorce go on to get divorced. So I love what you're doing with the mentors because you need to start beholding something else. You need to start looking at something else. Look and study the families in your world where the mom and dad cherish each other where they absolutely delight in their Children, where they overcome struggles together. Give yourself something new to behold, right? Behold what it is that you want to become and sometimes we can't behold the example that was handed down to a fire own parents. We need to find something else that we can behold so that we can become like that. Because what you've gone through is really painful but you are not doomed. You are absolutely not doomed to repeat what was done to you. You can become something really different from your parents. You can become the family that you wish that you had as a kid. It's not gonna happen by accident. You're gonna need people ahead of you showing you how to become that thing. So behold, beautiful examples of families, right? Hopefully, you've got some in your world. If not, I would really encourage you to go to church somewhere because That is the place where I see the family that are doing the hard work of staying together, um where ads are striving to protect and provide where moms are sacrificing their career sometimes. So they can be present with their kids when they're young, go there, they will probably love to have you even if they're a 15 year old, you know, just walk through the doors and let them love you. So behold what you want to become and there's good examples out there. Thank you for mentioning that. And again, I just want to give you a chance to say anything else you want to about them before us and how people can get involved and help you. Well, you should totally come to them before us dot com and subscribe and you can stay up on all of our advocacy work. But I'll also say that if you want to share your story, I personally bet everybody that shares their story on our website. But then I'm going to encourage you to write under a pseudonym so that you can be raw and honest. One of the big things we do with them before us is we center the stories of kids because otherwise the adults stories get centered or the narrative is centered and it's very hard to fight against adult narrative and pithy phrases like, oh, the kids will be fine or kids are resilient. The thing that does absolutely destroy those narratives is the real life stories of kids who have had to live through those split home situations and the pain and the struggle and very often lifelong harm that ensues. So if you choose to share your story at them before us, I will do my best to change the world with it. How can people buy the book too? I just wanted to make sure that they have that and how can they find you elsewhere online aside from all of our social media tags at the bottom of the website, we're on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Um The book is at Amazon. It's also a Christian books. If you don't want to Feed the Amazon Beast, we do have an audio book. I got to narrate it. They did make me audition, but they did end up giving me the job. That was really nice. So if you'd rather just listen to it, you can listen to it as well. Yeah, get, get the information into you. I think that it will be very validating for a lot of you guys out there. I think that it might give you words to describe how you're feeling. If you are somebody that is counseling kids, it's going to give you a pretty sharp perspective on what this is like for them. If you're a parent who's struggling right now, go into this choice with your eyes wide open, knowing the kind of cost that you will leverage on your child. If you go down this path, this conversation piqued your interest and you want to know more, definitely pick up Katie's book than before us to learn more about the research behind this topic. Really fascinating research that she put in the book when it comes to how divorce affects the Children. And you can just click on the link in the show notes to get that book. If you come from a divorce or broken family, how is your parents' divorce or your broken family affecting you today? It's trickier to answer that question than it might seem. And if your answer is, I don't really know or you don't understand the depth of it, you're not alone, that's actually very common. But in the words of one therapist, when it comes to experiencing healing, naming how you've been harmed is about 70% of the battle. Our new assessment will help you name and diagnose your Brokenness. So you can heal it at its roots, not just treat the symptoms and build the life and relationships that you desire. So if you want to become the best version of yourself, find the love, happiness and freedom that you long for avoid repeating the cycle of dysfunction and divorce, then you need to heal. And the first step to healing is naming and diagnosing the wound. Help you do that. Take our free confidential and research based assessment. Just go to my broken family dot com again, my broken family dot com, answer the questions there and then you can view your results again. Go to my broken family dot com or just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you're not alone, we're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

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#091: Infidelity: Healing from Your Spouse or Parent’s Affair | Dr. Christine Bacon

Feeling hopeless, our guest prayed for her husband to die. Earlier in their marriage, she cheated on him. Thankfully, they turned things around and they now have a beautiful marriage.

Feeling hopeless, our guest prayed for her husband to die. Earlier in their marriage, she cheated on him. Thankfully, they turned things around and they now have a beautiful marriage. 

In this episode, Dr. Christine Bacon vulnerably shares about her affair but especially about the restoration of her marriage. She even shares the formula she’s discovered for a happy marriage. She also offers advice and answers questions, such as:

  • Why do people have affairs?

  • Should parents tell their kids about the infidelity? 

  • What can a young person do to heal from their parent’s unfaithfulness?

Buy Dr. Bacon’s book, Super Couples: A Formula for Extreme Happiness in Marriage

Take the assessment

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

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To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

My guest today felt so hopeless in her marriage that she actually prayed for her husband to die. A kid. Do not. Their marriage was such a mess. And early on in marriage, she actually cheated on him. But now thankfully, they turn things around and their marriage is now really beautiful. And in this episode, my guest, Dr Christine Bacon vulnerably shares about her affair, but especially about the restoration of her marriage. She even shares the formula that she's discovered for a happy marriage. She also offers advice and answers questions such as why do people have affairs and should parents tell their kids about the infidelity that happened and what can a young person do to heal from their parents and fidelity? This is such an important topic that we privately discussed with the young people that we serve, but it's really discussed in such a public open and honest way as you'll hear in this episode. So keep listening. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again, I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. This is episode 91 my guest today is Dr Christine Bacon. She's a communication and relationship expert. She's also an author, speaker trainer, longtime university professor and the host of the radio talk show Breakfast with Bacon. Her acclaimed book, The Super Couple, a Formula For Extreme Happiness and Marriage was inspired by a personal mission to help God save one million marriages during her lifetime, Dr Bacon holds three degrees in communication. She received her master's and her phd in interpersonal communication from Regent University and she received her bachelor's during communication from Old Dominion University. Her doctoral dissertation burge marital humor with her own experience and her desire to teach individuals and couples how to build and nurture what Bacon calls super marriages. She and her husband Dan reside in Virginia and enjoy time with their daughters and six perfect grandchildren. So without waiting and no longer, here's my conversation with Dr Christine Bacon, Dr Bacon. So great to have you on the show. Thanks for being here. Thank you for inviting me. I'm always excited to spread truth. Your story is so fascinating. Perhaps your lowest point, you prayed for your husband to die. What happened in your marriage? But you know, gracious, I couldn't. We're going to have our 40th anniversary this year. So there's so much I could talk to you about. So let's start with the happy part there. But we got married in 83. I was pregnant and did everything the uncaf slick way and but we were happy and then we got married in 83. I started having an affair in 1986. Which is really weird because I like to first start out with telling people, most people think an affair happens in an unhappy marriage. That's not the truth affair happen when your boundaries are low. It's like, oh, I love my husband. That means I'm gonna stay with him. I'll just, you know, if someone is flirting with me, you flirt back. And so I didn't seek any relationship, but there's this individual is preying on me, which I now know, you know, he was 10 years older than me. He knew what he was doing. But let's just put that aside. But so I started having these feelings for this man, which I shouldn't have had eventually left my husband too and I was away from him for two years and then we got back together. So I ditched the other guy and then I had a Holy Spirit moment which, you know, I'll leave it up to you to ask me whatever you want to ask me kind of turned back or got back in touch with my faith that I had kind of let you know, go to the wayside, which hold on to that. And then two years on my own really talking to God. And that's when my husband started pursuing me again, saying let's let's get back together, let's reconcile was like, no No, no, no, no, no, no. It didn't work the first time. It's not gonna work sick time. But thank God he was very pursuant. And um so we agreed to get back together. We moved in and, and stop me any time because I could go on with the story. But we moved back in May of 1991. It was kind of like awkward, happy for a while. But the problem is joy is that we never, we never took a marriage class. We never said okay, what do we do differently? And we just kind of fell back into the same place. Not my husband. I mean, he's a good man but he kept your, your slot. You did this, you did that. All those bad names would continue to come out. Any time there was a marriage problem, he would throw that in my face. And of course, when he do that, I'd be like, you know, check and I, you know, it's your fault if you wouldn't be such a jerk. And so we fell into the patterns that so many people fall into. You attack me because you still don't trust me. And then so I'll defend myself and then, And then these patterns happen and we're not building a relationship. So the more that that happened, the less attracted I was to him. And, and so over the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years, he had this hardness and then I had this defensive edge against it because what people don't realize too when you have an affair is, they. I always think that the victim is my husband, which he is. I take full responsibility and have some people going. You're make it sound like we should feel bad for you guys who had an affair. It's not what I'm saying, but those of us that did have our feelings to deal with as well. We have self loathing, lack of respect were, you know, I sinned against God. I can never ever again call myself a faithful wife. Um How did I make such a stupid decision? So all these things. So we are a wounded animal and when anybody brings up our past infidelity, it's like poking on that wounded, like just leave me the hell alone. Sorry. I don't mean to say that, but that's kind of how we feel. And so specifically, you know, when a husband or a wife has been betrayed, like my husband was, he too has to protect himself. And so throwing darts at you or reminding you of your history is often a tactic that people would do. So with 20 years of this show, it got to the point where like I hate you so bad. I got to the point where I was like, I'm in my marriage because I know that marriages until death, I have no escape. I'm a trapped animal. And um I just the only way out of this bad marriages if you die because I don't believe in divorce and I would literally get on my knees at my bed because I, you know, I would say things but my husband was, you know, especially brutal with his words as well. So this is where I'm kind of like it's not just one person, there has to be forgiveness, there has to be kind. And so I would just be like, Lord, please make him die. He's an awful, awful man. He, he says stuff in front of our kids. I said stuff in front of our kids. And so all these things would build up and stop me wherever you want. But in this time, I was God always pressed on my heart, this desire. What, what does it take to have a good marriage? What you'd see these cute couples out there and you're like, you know, I want what they have all their so cute. They must have married the right way. They must have married the right guy. Um I did it the wrong way and you know, if, if my spouse dies, maybe I can get remarried and do it the right way the second time. You know, it sounds morbid but I've said it enough now that I know that many people say privately, I feel the same way and it's, it's shameful. But there are so many people that say I get you because when you're in a bad marriage, you do feel trapped. So, anyway, in this too time I started going to get my bachelor's, my master's, my phd, all in marriage communication. And eventually my phd was the doctoral dissertation was humor as a communication, strategy and military marriage. I don't want to study anything negative or depressing. And I thought, let's look at that and it was such a fun dissertation to do. And every question on my survey had had to do with humor except for one and it simply said write your marriage and, and that was a seven point scale from extremely unhappy and very unhappy and unhappy to the flip side, which was happy, very happy, extremely happy and perfect. And I'm like, oh my gosh. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna quiz you Joey. So out of 644 people, I'll tell you up front, nine people checked off. Perfect. And I'm like, those are still newlyweds having sex every day. They got no clue what a real marriage is like. Let's just get past them. Right. But when I went back and looked at them, those nine people were married 30 years, 20 years, 15 years, I was like, what I had to put that aside. But on my quiz you of the other 630, some people, what percent would you say would check the extremely happy box, like they're not just happy and I'm not just very happy, but they are extremely happy to come home to their spouse. We're talking not even 50 people, right? So you're thinking 60 10% you're thinking about 89% right? I was thinking about 1%. It was 35% 35%. That was like one in three, more than one in three was saying I'm so extremely happy. And I said at my computer crying, look at my, my data and was like, what does that look like? I just want to know what it's like to be happy. And I cried so hard because it was just so foreign to me. Anyway. So after I got my doctorate, the the Lord just kept pushing on my gut. He was like, go go find out, go find out, find out what it was like. Okay. So I went out to discover was extreme happiness accidental or was it, was there a formula? And of course, I expected to find that it was just accidental. They marry the right person and sucks to be you everybody else. You, you know, you chose your one in 100 instead of your one in a million. But as I went through it, I, I found out that there was actually a formula. So I'll hold off right there because I can't keep talking. I know you asked about infidelity. So before I go into the super couple, I'd love to answer any more questions you have about infidelity and you can ask anything you want? Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you for being such an open book and that's, that's so fascinating and I'm excited to dive into the formula more and get your relationship advice and all that, I guess for everyone interested, who kind of wants to be teased on the end of your story. How did you guys in particular turn things around? And then I do have a bunch of questions when it comes to infidelity. But yeah, what if you could tease that out? How did you guys turn things off? So there was a formula. I interviewed about 50 couples on recording but about it only took me about five or this, this pattern materialized before my eyes. As I'm interviewing these couples with a tape recorder, I would ask the same questions to every couple and 100% of the men would answer the questions the same way And 100% of the women would do the same thing. And it wasn't this contrived little. Oh honey, don't say that, you know, these people have been married 2030 years, they've seen each other naked, they've seen each other throw up, right? So they weren't playing any games. But when I'd say things like what are the main ingredients? And I am answering your questions, but I have to give you this. What are the main ingredients in the super couple marriage? Why? What makes you so special? And 100% of the husbands would say, let me tell you about this woman. Let me talk about my wife. She does this, this and this and you know what our marriage is good because she is this kind of a person that was like, wow. And then the women, you know, without going, oh no, stop honey. And they receive it. But then they go, well, you know what? He's being humble. Let me tell you about him because this family would not be what it is without him being able to do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he did this and he did that and I'd be sitting back and I'd see this repeated again and again and again in every home, every home and then, and then I'd ask, okay. So like you guys didn't have any struggles, right? I mean, maybe little things like your mom's check once, but you don't ever have any big problems. And 100% of these couples, the husbands were like, no, I don't know how she put up with me. I did this and I did that and I did this and there was a time when I failed her in this way and then the wives would be like, well, I did this and I did that and I did that. Let me tell you this. Here's, here's the very first most important part of the formula when it was a negative or when it was a positive attribute of the marriage they pointed to the other when it was negative, they pointed to the self. So I just ask you right now. Stop anybody listening, Joey. Are you married? Okay. So, you know, it's like when you think about this marriage or your bad days, right? You have a bad day, you're like, if my wife would just do such and such. Right? Do, do you? And you don't have to answer this, you or any of your listeners, do you quickly point out how he or she can change or do you think about your own ways of improvement? Yeah, that's a good question. And it depends on the day for me. Yeah. Sometimes you know, one of the more virtuous days I can point to myself in the not so virtuous days I can appointed her for sure and virtue is so so important. Actually, one of my super couples mentioned virtue and he said virtue is a disposition to do the good to do the good and, and negate the evil. That's it. To be a virtuous husband, being virtuous wife. What is a good I can do so in happy marriages, they would focus the good on the other and the negative on the self in troubled marriages like mine and my husband's, it was everything that was good was me and everything that was bad was him and vice versa. So really, if I go around, of course, I want to tell you the whole formula if you want. But what changed it for us was I was convicted and I started watching these couples and I sat there and I was embarrassed because I thought I'm such a jerk. I do this and I always insult my husband. I always blame him. I always, and he did the same. So I kind of consciously, kind of subconsciously started taking what I was learning in these interviews and bringing them home to my husband and him not realizing he was a marital guinea pig though he should have because he was married to me. He started reciprocating and our marriage once cycled bad. Your nasty. I'm nasty. You're ugly. I'm ugly. Started to slowly turn the other way. I'm nice. You're nice. You're happy. I'm happy. I'm virtuous. You're virtuous. Unfortunately, that circle it doesn't take long go and start spinning in the opposite direction. It was miraculous and that's when I realized if my marriage could turn around, any marriage could turn around. Wow. Beautiful. Okay. I'm really excited to get into more of that. But before we do infidelity, it's such a huge topic around here with the young people that we serve because so often, you know, their parents marriage fell apart because of infidelity or at least that was a factor in it. I wanted to start with. Do you know what percentage of divorces involve some form of infidelity? Oh, I would say 95 or more, you know, it's not always easy because so many of the cheaters why? And I'll talk to couples and they'll be like, oh, my spouse says they're not seeing someone else. And I'm like, well, they have this sign, that sign, this sign, that sign on that sign and some cheating spouses are very deceitful. Fortunately, for me, that's not one of my traits. I don't know how to lie when my husband found out about my affair was like, yep, you're right. I am and I don't love you, but there's so many other people, I'm not having an affair. It's you, you're stupid. You, you and, and insult the intelligence. So of all the couples, I've worked with the standards that I have in my group, people whose spouses have left them, I would say out of the 270 active ones that I have, there are two who I believe their spouse probably didn't cheat on them, but they left for other reasons. So, what's the math? Two out of 273 100? I mean, that's 1% half a percent. So, yeah, because Joey to get out of our relationship, even in abusive relationships, people get used to pattern, they stay in that situation because they know how to manage it until there's some outside force that forces you to get out and an affair. Whether it's physical or some people say just emotional but emotional is, is equally as powerful as physical, physical. Actually. Just happens when it's like I give up, I don't want to fight these feelings anymore. So your affair starts long before you ever get in bed with the other person. So I would say the vast majority deal with infidelity, whether it's known or hidden. No, that makes sense. And the cases that I'm aware of, like you said, there's just so much deceit and so much dishonesty that goes into it. So that makes a lot of sense that would be present if infidelity is often at the root of divorce. What's at the root of infidelity? What causes that? So, as I said earlier, I mean, I could go all spiritual on you until it's all Satan, right? It's the enemy. But in terms of our human weaknesses, low boundaries, low self esteem, most of the time, it's low boundaries. And like in my case, I didn't see it coming. Preachers. Right. I talked, I have some preachers in my group that, you know, husbands, a preacher and he ended up leaving me for another woman because so many people think, well, I'm happily married. I don't have to worry about that. So preachers will come in and they'll have, you know, couples in front of them or they'll council just the woman or just a man. But they put themselves in a position where they think they're strong and they can handle it, but they connect and this relationship builds into something and they end up having affairs. So I think it is not, it's not just the boundaries, boundaries, is it? But this idea that I'm immune is very problematic because some people have said I just never after they've heard my strategy, but I never thought my husband was one of those types of guy. And I say to them, I'm not gonna let that hurt me. Right. I'm just, but I want to, I want you to hear what you just said to me. My husband's not that kind of guy. You obviously were. What are you calling me? Are you saying I'm bad, I'm a slut and I'm, I'm horror. I'm asleep around. What what? And and they hear it and I was like I said, I was a good Catholic girl. I was happily married and I wasn't that kind of a girl. So that's one of the thinking I want to change in people is good. People have affairs. What, what did Jesus say in the Bible? Right? Is like who's good? But God on the days I do good things. I'm good on the days I do bad things. I'm bad. So that's probably the biggest thing is low boundaries because again, even in, in abusive relationships, abused, the victim's spouse will stay and the abuse is usually not enough to get them out. And let me just say this to so many people say I'm being abused and being abused, it annoys me. It really does because I start correcting them. I said there's a difference between your spouse being mean and a jerk and being abusive because abuse is about power and control and they're often not overpowering you. Like, yeah, if you go to your mom's house, I'm going to take you and I'm going to whatever. Right. So, but in true abusive relationships, the spouse is usually, like, look, you know, these incidents happen only every several months I can handle it and then whatever. But, you know, even in them, they don't leave until there's just all of a sudden there's a better option. There's, They meet someone, they see someone that's now they're attracted and it gives them, oh, those 11 hormones that we could talk about are so powerful. Once we let them this cascade of these love cocktail, emotions that John Gottman calls them. Once the domino effect starts, it's nearly impossible to fight. So we have to stop ourselves before those hormones start clicking in here. Okay. Now it makes so much sense. Well, it's so you're so insightful into this problem. What do you think of Dr Gary Chapman's explanation to where he basically says, you know, in the five love languages that, you know, emotional tank that everyone has just needs to be filled and when it's empty, we're going to seek to fill it in ways that might not be, be healthy. And so we want our spouse to love us and fill our emotional tank. But if they don't, we might seek it in other ways, which could be an affair. That's what a lot of the stories in his book talk about that. Do you think that's maybe one of the main reasons that affairs happen or is there something else going on? So whether it's him and talking about the Love bank and the, or it's Cotman talking about the love cocktail. What I find is always, we're all speaking the same language because in my super couple formula, the sacred formula as a C R E D, the s is the most important. It's selflessness. And so simply put, if, if I am meeting my own needs but not yours, it's a problem and then happy in unhappy marriages. Let's go there. We meet the needs of the self. I wake up in the morning and make my own cup of coffee and make sure I get enough sleep. I do what I need to do. And this might not be bad things. But if I'm taking care of my needs and Danny is taking care of his, that's still much more selfish. But that we have to be selfless. If I wake up in the first cup of coffee I make is my husband's or I make sure to, you know, turn my alarm off or keep the lights off because he wants to sleep in or whatever. So do I put his needs before my own or my, my needs before his, when you're talking about Gary Chapman's the five love languages or Emerson Cedric's Love and respect they're both about or all these books about, do I meet my needs or do I meet their needs? So, my love language is quality time and my focus. And why are you never talking to me, Dan, why you're never listening to me? That's, it's nothing bad about that, but that's still focused on my needs. And my thinking about Danny's love language is acts of service. Am I doing? Did I mow that lawn for him? Did I go and massage him? Did I go and make, make whatever it was he wants me to do. So, yeah, I love what Chapman says because if we discover what the other person's love languages and we seek to meet their needs, that's what we're supposed to do. I'm married to you. I will seek your needs. You seek mine. And that way we're both having our needs met by the other. No, I love that. Yeah. And teaching each other how to fill those needs I think is, is so so beautiful. And that's why I love the work that you're doing. Would you say, I mean, your story is just the answer to this. But for everyone listening who maybe doesn't know, you know, everything about your story is a marriage doomed once infidelity occurs, you know, can you recover from it? No. You know, I'm a Lector at church and one of the things I do is I'm able to look out and see all the people in the pews and, because I'm a marriage coach, I'm like, I've worked with that couple, I've worked with that couple, I've worked at that couple and they're all together and I know which ones have had affairs but you don't Because they don't tell you and they're not going to tell their neighbors and they're not going to tell their families most of the time. And so you look at couples, see you had an affair. See, they're divorced. I'm like, ah, but you don't know about these other 2030, 50, 50 couples here that had affairs and they're happily married. Yeah, you can. And people do all the time work through them. So, so what does it take to recover from that, from, from a cheating situation for both of the spouses? Because, you know, let's assume one didn't cheat and one did. I know in some cases both do. But I'm curious, what does it take to recover from cheating? It takes every fiber of your being because both of you were, had trust broken the betraying spouse again, as I said earlier has all these self doubts. And when this love cocktail, like kicks in and you have all these feelings when you first met your wife, you probably have the love cocktails like, oh my gosh. I'm so in love and hmm. So there are 11 hormones but I call it love cocktail then, but when it's an affair, I call it the lust cocktails the same 11 hormones. But they're, one of them is a hormone that elevates your risk taking. It's like, oh, no, it's okay. We can have sex. We won't get caught, we won't get pregnant. Another one is low irritability. When you're with this person, nothing irritates you. It's just no big deal. Even the way they chew with their mouth open is so adorable. You know, that's just, it's okay. Right. But when that wears off, which takes typically about two years, six months to two years, you're like, oh my God, shut your mouth. I don't want to see you chewing like that and you're irritating me and, and, and all these hormones. But one of those hormones is called vasopressin and it's called the monogamy hormone. And it's specifically high when vasopressin touches testosterone, which means more stronger for males even though women have testosterone to. But when, And that's the person is elevated, it's called the monogamy hormone because men are visually stimulated, right? You can see your wife naked, you're totally ready, right. I'm game. But when you're in that love cocktail and those 11 hormones are elevated, you could have naked women walking around you and you won't even notice them because your object of your affection is right in front of you. Like I don't care about anyone else. So when I had an affair and that lust cocktail kicked in and I saw this person as like, just, just great. Right. There's nothing in the earth. My husband can do your wife that can make you think they're better. That's just the way God made the hormones. Um, so when you're coming out of an affair, you have to work through those emotions because so many times, you know, I'm sitting there thinking, oh my gosh, the other guy was a better man. I'm stuck with my husband. I got to be with him, but I'm going to do this. So the things that actually keep you married are the decision. So once the hormones were off, let me just say it's the difference between what we would categorize as falling in love and being in love, right? So falling in love is I'm just in love, I'm in love with you versus love. So after the hormone wears off, you make a choice. If you and your wife have been together for more than two years, you know what I'm talking about, you're choosing to love her every day. And so that's what you have to do after an affair, you have to work through. And when I counsel or coach couples, I'll tell the husband or the wife that was betrayed. Look, I'm just gonna be straight up with you. Your spouse is still going to be thinking about the om or the O W as we call him, the other woman other man. I know you don't want to think about that, but you, you can close your eyes and stick your head in the stand or you can understand this and go with it. You want your marriage to work or not, but it's not to throw it in their face when they're like crying in bed at night because they've been out of this relationship for six months, but they're still dreaming of the other person. And that is pretty humbling. If you, if your wife, you know, you're laying in bed with your wife, you know, she's thinking of another man that's pretty humiliating or vice versa. So, teaching them, here's what it's going to look like. But eventually those hormones balance your mind balances. You will logically look at it like I had to go. That guy is not a good guy because he had an affair with a married woman. He knew, you know, even though I had an affair with a married man, I looked at him like I had to look at him logically and go, your ethics aren't as high as I would like to believe. I can't trust you because you, you're a cheater just like I was right. So you got to navigate what is truth and what is worth working. And so I will work with couples and you have a history together. You have Children, you have families, you devastate your Children if you divorce. But once you work through this and you reset logic and emotion, faith and reason. You will see that the feelings can come back for the spouse that you once couldn't stand because you're looking at him like, wow, you're stuck with me even though I did this or I did that or, or the other way around you, you look like you came back to me even though you already had someone else and you could have your a big enough person to admit your fault. You know. So how do we see you? Do we see you in that positive light or do we see you in the negative light? That's a choice. You have to train your mind. Wow. Okay. And I know you offer resources to help recover from these sorts of situations from Infidelities. So we'll definitely offer those at the end. But I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about, yeah, you know, from the perspective, I would say of the Children of the young people who come for from these situations. So would you say, should parents tell their kids about the infidelity? That's something we kind of debate around here. Not unless the kids found. So I have a sadly have a friend who recently had an affair and her Children overheard and the kids are upset. How could you have done this mommy? How could you have done this? That's devastating because the kids, they're so innocent. They believe in Santa Claus they can't comprehend this. What a child should be told is what a child can handle. His. Mommy and daddy are having a hard time, mommy and daddy are fighting, but we can get through this. Do you know how you fight with your siblings? You know, you guys, sometimes you're pulling each other's hair out and we have to ground you and then sometimes you're playing really nicely. So that's like Agia pro pre it, you get a teenager and it's the same type of things like, you know, your mom and I are struggling marriages like this. Um If you could, could you pray for us. And so if the child says, well, my friend saw mommy out with another man, you know, or they saw you, you know, daddy out with another woman, I would never lie to the child because then they can't trust you. So whatever they know, you never lie to the child, but you never give them more information than they need. And it's like, well, yes, daddy did in fact have a relationship with someone else, but that relationship is ending and we're working out, you know. So that's, that's what I would say. Okay. So not voluntarily bringing it up. But if they knew about it, if they ask, you can set aside curiosity and kind of leave it at that until maybe they have more questions. Let me ask you if I took a knife and stabbed you in the chest. That would hurt. Right. So, when you find out your spouses had an affair that hurts. Right. Why would you want to stab your Children in the chest too? Yeah. Okay. So let me just play devil's advocate for a secondary. I know a lot of the spouses who might be listening to this, especially parents who are divorced. They might be thinking, well, I want to give my child my Children some sort of an explanation for why dad is no longer living with us. What would you say in that case is appropriate? Because it might seem, and I've heard parents say this, it might seem like your mom or if it's dad being kind of this, this ruthless creature who's kicking the other parent out of the house for apparently no reason when you know, there actually is a reason there. So I'm curious what you would say to someone who would say something like that. So kind of get me to the beginning question again. Yeah. So, you know, a parent might disclose to their Children about some sort of infidelity or affair because they're afraid that their Children may think that they're randomly kicking the other spouse out of the house. So, so again, you tell the child, you always have to give them encouragement first. Just like, look, I want, I want daddy back. I'm still fighting for our marriage. But yes, he made this bad mistake. You know, if you put it in that. It's like he made a mistake or I wouldn't have ever, I was forced into this divorce. But I want you to love your daddy because just like you make mistakes, daddy's makes mistakes too. Or mommy, you know, whichever one it is. So you, but see what happens. Joey is a lot of us and anybody listening, check yourself because you know what I'm talking about is really, I want my, I didn't know that I was a good spouse and they were the bad one. It's like, well, you know, if your dad hadn't have left me and they almost want to tell the Children so that I'm the good parent and that's the bad parent. But they totally forget your kid loves both of you. Even kids whose parents are in prison. I worked with those kids, even kids whose parents are abusive. I've talked to those kids. They want mom and dad together. They want to believe this is possible. So even though you have proved that the other one in the eyes of the world is the worst one. That's not how it's coming out in your kid's head. You just need to say we are both lod people. We've both made mistakes. But yes daddy left. I wish I could get them to stay. I wish I could have gotten mommy to stay. You know, so they can know that your fight you fought or you are continuing to fight for your marriage and then just tell the kids, you know, mommies and daddies do get back together, you know. So, so pray, pray for this. Although I tell you the cheating spouse, the leaving spouse often says, don't you tell our kids to pray for our marriage to reconcile? Because it's never gonna happen? You're giving the kids false hope. The Bible says, hope never disappoint. So that's what I usually tell them. I'm gonna give them hope. You go ahead and throw their little hearts on the ground and tell them not. And I'm gonna let them pray with whatever they want to say. If that makes them feel better, I think we'll get back together, then I'll let them do it and it just angers the leaving spouse. But you're not saying it to be vindictive. You're saying it to be like, I'll be darned if I'm going to tell my kids not to pray that we get back together because it convicts leaving spouse. Yeah. Oh Yeah. And from the hundreds of young people that we worked with, even if there's not this explicit conscious desire, often on an unconscious level, there's this desire that mom and dad would get back together. And even if that, even if it's the years later, there's this hope that we hold on out, you know that okay, maybe mom and dad will get back together, maybe things will, you know, the family will come back together, things can be healed. So So, I certainly just, my parents on February 23rd would have been my parents 60th wedding anniversary and they're both still alive and they divorced when I was 14. And even though back then I said I wanted it because I used to fight with my dad as I've matured. I'm like, no, I want my parents back together and I'm still hoping that maybe before they die they will. So, yeah. And if, if God wills it, it will happen. Yeah. So you get that. Yeah. What would you say to a child who that one or both of their parents were unfaithful and it really affected them, like they're really scarred by it. What would you say to them? How could they heal from that? How old? I mean, typically the people listening to this podcast typically or anyone from early teens to in their early 30s. So I know it's a big range. But no, no, no, it's good. They're just not little kids. My answer is there's a lot of Brokenness in this world and Brokenness does not mean it has to be replicated and it does not mean it can't be healed. And, you know, usually by that age, those age groups have made some big mistakes. They've had sex outside of marriage, they've broken up, they've had their own little cheating on a boyfriend or girlfriend, they've, they've made mistakes so they start understanding the humanity of themselves. And so I would help them compare their parents Brokenness to their own. But then again, going back to the hope conversation saying, But again, we learn from our mistakes. Sometimes the mistakes we made make us the better persons that we are my affair. 30 some years ago, 36, years ago, brought me to this profession. Today, brought me to that book. Got me to the platform is helping me save marriages. It is God is redeeming my sin. And so I would say to those Children, the same thing first, don't stop praying for your parents to reconcile, but look at them as the same as you are just a flawed and broken human being who made a mistake? Forgiveness goes a long way. That's so true. Thanks for saying all that. And what would you say to the young person who is just terrified of walking down the same path? Um I know, you know, we hear that a lot from the young people that we work with that. They don't want to repeat the same mistakes they saw in their parents' marriage. But so often they, you know, for one reason or another, they kind of unconsciously walk down the same path. But what can they do to avoid repeating those same mistakes in their own relationships? First thing they can do is realize that they're not gonna not make some of the same mistakes. You know, I'm just, you're taught how to handle conflict by your parents you're taught how to wash the dishes by your parents. You're taught how to interact with family and friends and spend the holidays. You're taught everything by your parents and you gotta take the good and get rid of the bad. My daughter and I was a great mom. I had other mothers say to me, if I could be half the mom you were. But my youngest daughter was like, I don't ever want to be a mom like you were in terms of conflict. My daughter's very introverted and she always calls me a bull in a china shop because I'm like, you see, I'm not shot. I'm like, I'll give you this and that and I'm opinionated and that makes her pull back. So she's like, I will never be like you in that way. I'm never going to raise my voice and she doesn't raise her voice too much. But then she's gone so far to the opposite direction. She doesn't discipline her kids at all. And I've had to say to her, your kids are walking all over you. Your oldest disrespect you, blah, blah, blah. So what I'd say to them is you're going to make mistakes, cut yourself some slack for crying out loud, but pick and choose the things that you want to repeat, the things you don't realize you're gonna make your own set of mistakes just trying to avoid your parents' mistakes. So it's got to be this balance of okay, this is gonna happen. Now, the number one thing in this is secular research and then obviously Christian as well. But secular research take, take the God out of this. The number one thing that will save a marriage is to vow to understand the indestructibility of marriage. It's like a lot of my couples would say the D word. We don't even say the D word we said on our engagement. We would never be allowed to say it, even joke about it, even threatened it. We'd never say the D word. And when you go into it and know that this is for life, it changes things when I left my husband and then I came back when he asked me back in 2000 or 1991. It's actually October of 1990. I remember standing in My living room in New Hampshire because my husband was currently stationed in South Carolina thinking to myself, Okay. The first time I left my husband, you know, I married him, I was 18, pregnant and stupid. Everybody would understand why I'm getting out of this marriage. I'd have been out. But this time you're eight years older, you know what you're getting into this time. It's for life. And I never knew back then that vow, that vow is what sustained me in the times that I wanted him to die or hated him. It's like I'm in this for life. There's no out clause. There's no get out of jail card and when you know that you will weather any storm, any storm, every storm, every storm so good. And what would you say to parents listening? Who maybe they're considering a divorce, maybe they're separated right now or just really struggling in their marriage. What's your advice for them? Especially if cheating was involved. What's your advice when it comes to parents? Considering divorce? A read Layla's book, Primal Loss. The now adult Children of divorce, speak Layla Miller. It is, it'll rip your heart out. And she has given that book to people. They have, she said some people actually changed their decisions to divorce because of like this is gonna hurt my kids. Um One of the things that I read in there that I will say to those people right now is one person said divorce is a bloodless sacrifice, deacon Harold Burke Sievers was on my radio show once and he is an adult child of divorce. And he said the most telling thing there is divorce is like putting your own cross down and forcing your Children to pick it up. So if you're a parent and you're considering divorcing their parent do not be so arrogant as to think your kids will be okay and your kids will have no pain and your kids won't mind being in a house with their dad and another woman and watching them have to sleep in the same room or their mom and another man do not think your Children will be okay with that. So when you look at and say your Children want the two of you to figure this the heck out, you said you, you right now would jump in front of a bus to save your kid's life. You would take a bullet for those kids. And yet if you divorce, you are inflicting the biggest bullet you can on your kids don't think that you're not. And so I kind of just put them right between the eyes. So you need to figure this out and then I pull back and I'm like, but I get it, I get it. I knew the pain I wanted out and let me work with you, find someone you can work with that can help you get past the season of darkness because you can get past it. So you have to do the same thing with those parents. You have to give them hope. There's nothing that you're going through right now that cannot be resolved. I've had abusive couples where the abuser stops abusing and they've gotten back together and they've had happy marriages, extra kids. Yeah, that's beautiful. I think there's this narrative in our culture that can't happen, but it certainly is true because you've seen it and help couples reach that point. That's amazing. Look at people in prison, we say, oh, they should be good. And yet so many people like, oh, they're an ex con that is a human being. And if you believe that they can live and not make those same mistakes and then they won't. But you judge them a little bit more harshly than you judge yourself. So, yeah. No, they can learn and they can be good broken. But he'll human beings just like you. And so I'm like, really adamant about changing people's frames of mind. It starts in the head. Yeah. No, it's beautiful and it does take a lot of work and I know you're not simplifying it. But um but if you have the right guide, the right mentor, the right coach, you certainly can get there. And we see that with athletes or world class musicians, right? There's always these mentors, these guides behind them. And so it should be the same if we want great marriages. Do I want to go back to the formula before we say goodbye here. Please tell us more about it. I'm really excited. So you interviewed all these couples, you came up with this formula for a great marriage. Teach us as much as you can in the short time that we have. Okay. So the acronym Sacred, I always joke that was either going to be sacred or scared, but I figured Sacred would sell more books. Um When I asked them, these main ingredients, there were some things that these couples said um that they thought were parts of a super marriage. But there were things that I saw that they weren't able to articulate until later. Some of my couples came and so did you ever find out about us? What do you think? And I told them formula. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's it. Because not all of them said selflessness. Actually, most of them didn't. But that's all I saw. And so the A I saw was attentiveness. None of them said that. But here's what I saw in unhappy marriages. You pay attention to what your spouse does poorly in happy super marriages, you pay attention to what they do. Well, so if your spouse comes home in a bad mood, slams the doors like rail in a bad marriage, you're like, you're such a jerk. See why don't even bother marrying you? But in a happy marriage and a super marriage, they go, you know what? That is a good person who's having a bad day. So they flip it. So what do you pay attention to in your spouse where they succeed, where they failed the things you paid attention to when you were dating and fell in love or you pay attention to the fact that they don't keep a clean house or, you know, they have bad breath in the morning or they, they're snarky or they're bad communicators, you know, whatever you can pick and choose because everybody's got a package of both. So the second one, the third one was c which is communication that's all my degrees are in communication. How we say what we say. Um I talk about the differences between the male and the female brain. That's huge because if every woman expect her husband to be just like her and have these conversations where they look into your eyes and you can talk for hours. A male rather shoot himself than have to listen to someone talk all the time because most guys are like, dude, get to the point, get to the point you're killing me, right? And the women are like what all my girlfriends can hang with the girls, the girls, you know. So um I talked about the compartmentalization of the male brain and the and the females circular kind of thinking. I talk about the emotion centers, you know, a female's emotion centers attached to her language center. So when she feels something, she's able to articulate it, but a man's emotion center are attached to his spinal cord. So when a man feels an emotion, he's got to move his body and stuff. So how we say we, what we say, how we communicate, our feelings is so diverse depending on our gender and then our personality type. And and again, am I going to communicate with my husband? The way I want him to communicate or the way that he wants me to communicate goes right back to that selflessness, right? Then ours respect. I don't really need to build on that one too much other than to say our society used to have respect for people. And now you can look at our politicians, our leaders profanity in the White House. You would have never heard that 50 years ago. But there's no respect for self. Look at all this cutting, look at all these horrible things. So we have no respect for self respect for others, no respect for authority, no respect for our spouses and, and respect is to find as the esteem for the value or the worth of a person. And if I don't have value or esteem for my husband's worth, it's gone because if I don't respect him, don't care how I treat him. So respect is huge. And then the kind of the last two E N D sacred, the E is encouragement. I went into my super couples asking questions about pessimism and optimism because my husband's a huge pessimist. And I thought that's what I was seeing is like, you're making me, he's toxic. It was toxic. And I found out that all my super couples were actually a pessimist, married to an optimist. And I was like, what, what am I looking at then? And then after I studied them more, I realized what I was looking at was the dichotomy between encouragement and discouragement. Super couples were extremely encouraging one another. It's like Jimmy, if, if anybody could run for mayor, you could run for mayor. If anybody could start their own business. You can, it's like, you know, Christine, if anyone could write this book, you can the super couples encourage one another and my husband, I love him, but he had to train him. This is probably one of his weak areas. He's like, well, yeah, of course, you could write a book but most books fail. You know, of course, you could start a business but most of them lose money and I'm like, you're killing me. And so I had to like push past his toxic thinking, which eventually my positive success brought him along. But so encouragement. Do you encourage one another? And again, that's biblical encouragement. And the Bible encourage one another with the kids and just be mighty encourage, mentioned encouragement greatly come and encourage them. You can do this. We can do this. I know we cheated. I know our marriage is bad but we can do this. We can do this for the kids anyway. And then the last one ties it all together. The last one is deliberateness because I remember asking one of my super couples, are you just naturally selfless? And her name was Brooke. And she's like, no, you're just as selfish as everybody else. She goes. It's just that when I wake up in the morning, I think to myself, what can I do for Chuck today? What can I do to put his needs before my own? How can I not be selfish? And she said, but that intentionality breeds habit. And eventually super couples are habitually putting their spouse before themselves. So you have to be deliberate. People who are dealing with affairs have to be deliberate and going. Okay. I know. Logically, here's what I'm feeling. I know logically, here's what's going to happen. I know logically, you know, we got to get through this spot would be deliberate, but I'm gonna do this anyway. I don't love you right now. I don't want to kiss you right now, but I'm gonna do it anyway. You know, so that's the formula. It's pretty powerful and it works. Yeah. Amazing. Well, if people want to learn more, how can they learn more about that? I know you have your book and please tell us about the other resources that you offer. Well, so just go to my website and you'll get everything there. It's breakfast with bacon dot com and you can also find Dr Christine bacon dot com. But it's easier to remember breakfast with bacon. Everybody always says that, that, that breakfast with bacon lady, what's her name? So you never remember my name. Just remember breakfast with bacon dot com. And you can find out about my book. We have an audio book, e book, you know, the paper book, but also coaching resources can, you know, work with you. I also have a standards group, the podcast. So you start there. It'll take you to the podcast. It'll take you to everything. But the standards group, I definitely want to make a plug for in this last minute that we have is standards are people who are standing for reconciliation while their spouse is cheating on them has had an affair, has divorced them, has a child with somebody else. And these are people who are standing on their vows saying well, until death do us part. Even if you're married and you've been with the other woman for 12 years, I'm gonna stand because I'm your covenant spouse. And so there are so many people are listening right now. That are what we call separated, faithful. And they're like, yes, that's what I want. I want to say to you, you're not delude, you're not wrong, you're not Pollyanna ish. There are thousands of people who are standing for reconciliation. You can come join our group. We will encourage you. You know, you will have other people who think like you and we've had now we start out with four people in my living room in 2016. We now have over 275 people in 40 states, 10 countries. We've had over 15 reconciliations already of people who once said I will never get back with you. They got back so good. Well, Dr Christine Bacon, thank you so much for your time. I want to give you the last word. What encouragement when you give to parents, listening to even young people listening who? Yeah, just are in these broken families who maybe feel stuck and discouraged in life. What would, what hope would you give to them and closing? There's so much be selfless and, and sacrifice your own needs for the needs of your Children, sacrifice your own needs for the greater good, for the community, for your spouse, for God. And you will be rewarded for that. You will probably be rewarded on this earth, but you'll definitely be rewarded in heaven because every single thorn that you have on earth, you will exchange for a jewel in heaven. Everything is not forgotten. So carry your cross and if you want me, I'll help you carry it with joy. So some questions for you to reflect on if you are married, how would you rate your marriage? How would you rate your marriage and if you're not married, how do you want to be able to rate your future marriage? Like obviously, you wanted to be as great as it can be. And so the question really is for both people in both situations is how are you going to close the gap between where you are today and where you want to be? And to do that, I just want to say check out Dr Christine Bacon's resources to help you. And again, you can go to breakfast with bacon dot com, breakfast with bacon dot com or just click on the link in the show notes If you come from a divorce or broken family. How is your parents' divorce your broken family affecting you today? It might be trickier to answer that than it seems. And if your answer is, I don't really know or you don't really understand the depth of it, you're actually not alone. That's very common from what we've seen. But in the words of one therapist, when it comes to experiencing healing, naming how you've been harmed is about 70% of the battle. Our new assessment will help you name and diagnose your Brokenness. So you can heal it at its roots, not just treat the symptoms and build the life and relationships that you desire. So if you want to become the best version of yourself, find the love and happiness and freedom that you long for and avoid repeating the cycle of dysfunction, divorce in your own life, then you need to heal. And the first step to healing is really naming and diagnosing the wound to help do that. You can take a free confidential and research based assessment. Just go to my broken family dot com, my broken family dot com, answer the questions there and then view your results again. Go to my broken family dot com or just click on the link in the show notes. That's a wrap. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents to force or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

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#090: How’s Your Parents’ Divorce or Broken Family Affecting You Today?

How is your parents’ divorce or your broken family affecting you today? 

How is your parents’ divorce or your broken family affecting you today? 

If your answer is “I don’t really know” or you don’t understand the depth of it, you’re not alone. That’s actually very common. But in the words of one therapist, “When it comes to experiencing healing, naming how you’ve been harmed is about 70% of the battle.”

In this episode, we unveil a new tool that will help you name and diagnose your brokenness, so you can heal it and build the life and relationships you desire. 

Take the assessment

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

For those of you come from broken or divorced families. How is your parents divorce or your broken family affecting you today. And if your answer is, I don't really know or you don't understand the depth of it. You're not alone. That's actually very common. I've heard that a lot. It's a trickier question to answer than it might seem. But in the words of one therapist, when it comes to experiencing, healing naming how you've been harmed is about 70% of the battle. So in this episode we unveil a new tool that will help you name and diagnose your Brokenness. You can heal it at its roots, not just the symptoms and build the life and relationships that you want. Keep listening. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce, separation or broken marriage so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joy Pontarelli, thank you so much for listening. This is episode 90. My co host today is actually a restored teammate, our director of content Miranda Hinkle and Miranda a little background on her. She was born in Caracas Venezuela, although she spent the majority of her childhood in North Carol When she was 10, her family moved back to Venezuela where her life was changed forever when her parents divorced a year later and shortly after that, she and her younger sister moved with their mother back to the United States and settled in Charleston South Carolina Miranda graduated with a psychology degree from Clemson University in 2015 moved back to Charleston where she met her husband and married him in 2020? They now reside in florida where her husband is stationed with the U. S. Navy. She works for restored to help other Children of divorce heal and grow Miranda enjoys the beach beer, trying to understand poetry and poking fun at her husband. So with that, let's dive into the show. This is such a common problem that we hear that people like us who come from divorced or broken families, they don't recognize or at least don't fully understand how their past trauma affects them today. And that's I think a big problem and to take a little bit further, they might recognize symptoms like, oh I struggle with anxiety or depression or I'm addicted to, you know, alcohol or pornography, but they might not understand the root cause. So they don't understand like that their family trauma stuff that's happened to them in the past is actually contributing to that struggle today. And if I think the danger to not recognizing that is that we might be tempted to merely treat symptoms instead of addressing the root cause. And if you do that, what I've seen at least is that you're just always going to be treating symptoms. You know, we see that a lot in the medical world whether that's like popping pills or going on this or that program that never actually gets you a result for the root cause. It just like treats the symptoms. And so I wanted to hear from you though, like what um what happened in your past, that kind of woke you up to realize that a lot of, you know, your struggles were some from at least the breakdown of your parents, marriage and the family trauma that you had been through. Yeah, I think what you're saying is so true and we see that over and over again in our work, just how we, a lot of us, you know, from broken families walk around without understanding how our parents divorced or how our broken family has affected us and then we don't know, we can't connect the symptoms to the issue. And so it kind of puts us in a really tough position to find healing. And so awareness is a really key factor. And for me personally, it wasn't until I was in my first dating relationship that I started to really notice the symptoms of distrust and anger and just a lot of dysfunctional habits when it came to romantic relationships. And so the symptoms became just really acute and um that prompted me to look for help, which came in the way of counseling. Really excellent counselor, I do advocate that for everyone if they can. Um and I know that that is part of our mission with restored is to connect people to to high quality counselors. So, through the work of our counselor of my counselor, I I was able to make that connection because, you know, she was wise enough to see that I was struggling, you know, relational e especially, and she kind of could see how those wounds came from my parents divorce years before. And so through our conversations, you know, it definitely took a while for me to truly believe that that was true. But I think over time in our work together, I began to see the connection and with that awareness, I was able to work on really treating the symptoms at their root. No, that makes so much sense, and I'm really glad that you had that experience. I mean, it sounds like a painful thing to go through, but at the end it turned out to help you help he'll help you grow to help you become a better stronger person. It shocked you though, didn't it? Like it just didn't occur to you before that, or maybe sharing this with me, Like it didn't occur to you before that that that would be a possibility, like you said, it took you time to kind of wrap your head around that. Um is that right? Absolutely, yeah, I was, I think, you know, many of us are just reluctant, you know, we don't want to revisit painful memories. So there's kind of that protective element, a lot of us block uh those things out because it's painful and uncomfortable to consider. So there's that and then I think we we as Children, you know, we don't want to put our parents in a position where we're blaming them for anything. And so where there's kind of that protective instinct and so there's a lot of factors that can work against us recognizing how our families have, you know, led to us dealing with these symptoms. And of course there is not a matter of blame. It's just a matter of acknowledging the truth. And you know, jesus said like the truth was that you free, we know that that's true. And so from there, from that point of honesty is where you can start to truly finding healing, you know? Yeah, that's so true. And yeah, I think a lot of people feel like they're somehow hurting their parents are not honoring them or you know, not loving them if they're honest about the ways in which they, you know, maybe decisions, they made one or both parents made affected them. And I, yeah, I definitely, we definitely push back against that saying that you could still love and honor your parents while at the same time being honest about the ways in which your family negatively affected you. And and the point by the way is not to just like stay there forever. We want to like move past it and heal those relationships and just like move on with our life. Like we're not supposed to be and I hope people don't get this wrong impression about restored. Like we want you guys to like move on, move past this stuff, not to perpetually be wrestling with, you know, these wounds and the struggles in your relationship with your parents. It is a process and that's something that happens overnight. But um, but that's the end the goal of all of this. So Amanda, I was curious, you know, once you kind of had that recognition, you were aware of, you know, your struggles and the root of them on a deeper level. What did you do with that knowledge? Like how did that understanding benefit you? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know with any problem, you really can't address it until you acknowledge that there is a problem. And so seeing that you know, I had some serious, you know, trust issues and just unhelpful mindsets when it came to relationships and things like that, it allowed me to then address them and I think especially you know with the help of the counselor, it was extremely fruitful to break down what I was dealing with why I was dealing with it and from there be able to find healing. So I think the process of understanding, you know, how my past had affected me and then addressing each symptom in turn, you know, allowed for healing to happen. I really don't think that I would have been able to kind of develop better habits growing virtue nearly as much as I hadn't first kind of come to terms with the fact that my past had affected me and was still affecting me even at that point in time, years after the divorce. So I think it was absolutely a very fruitful process even though like you said, it is a little, you know, it can be a little painful. It's a lot of work, but I think it's absolutely necessary if we want to have healthy relationships and a big part of our mission here restored is to undo the cycle of divorce. And I think we all want that for our culture, but we also want that individually. Like we don't want to repeat our parents mistakes. And so I think it was absolutely essential for me to work on those issues so that I could undo the cycle of divorce in my own life. Okay, that makes so much sense. Now before we move on, I'm just curious if you're open to sharing, were there any like more specific examples of like, this was a problem? I know you mentioned anger and some other, you know, struggles in your dating relationship. So I'm curious if there was anything in particular that was like, okay, this is a struggle. I didn't see I was connected to the breakdown of my family. Then I realized it was and I did this about it and I was able to get this outcome. Just curious just so we can kind of tie that together for everyone listening. Yeah, I think one of the most kind of helpful parts of, you know, especially cognitive behavioral therapy is you kind of change, you know, the goal is to kind of change your thought processes and so for me, the way my therapist described it and I hope I can make this analogy make sense, but it was kind of like being in a building and all your all your fire alarms, you know, are going off and so you're like, wow, like something's really wrong, like I need to get out of here, I need to get out of here, I need to get out of here and everyone outside the building is like saying no you're fine, you're good, everything's fine. Like what there's no problem here, but you're, you know, internally, like everything is is like a mess and you're like, I have to I have to escape and that's kind of how I felt with relationships was like they're constantly red flags going off in my head. There's a lot of anxiety of getting close to people and intimacy and all those things and I was constantly um riddled with these just intense, intense anxieties. And so those are like the fire alarms going off and so what therapy and coming to terms with with my past and things like that allowed me to do was to question those fire alarms. And so instead of running away or you know, avoiding the situation or you know, self sabotage, etcetera, it allowed me to like actually create space between the anxiety and my response. And then to intern question, you know, okay, is this where is this coming from? You know, why? Why? What are the reasons for it? Are the reasons valid? And then, like, you know, is this something I should talk to someone else about? Like, a peer mentor or or my therapist, or is this something I need to pray about first, It's just allowed me to kind of question those anxieties instead of just automatically assuming that it was true. And so um with that became a lot of courage to confront those fears and to work on relationships despite them, instead of kind of being their victim, if that makes sense? Yeah, because it can be easy to just go off the emotion and think like, well I feel super anxious about this relationship, you know, in your analogy of the building, I'm in this relationship, I'm in the building, I feel super anxious, it feels like all these fire alarms are going off, Everyone else says, it's like fun, but I feel like it's not. And so the temptation could be, like you said to just like maybe leave the relationship or to not resolve some conflict that came up and said you kind of were able to just avoid going down that path, which wouldn't have solved anything and instead kind of engaged, like the feelings that you're having and then, you know, deal with the conflict or instead of, you know, just listening to your anxiety, you're able to keep loving in the relationship and go beyond just the emotion portion. Is, is that right? I'm hearing, right? Exactly. So it was, it was really helpful for that. Exactly what you're saying, awesome. Yeah, so on my end, just to share a little bit, I was aware from a young age how my parents separation and later divorce had affected me, but obviously wasn't aware to the full extent. I always knew that man, like, that was a big deal was really painful and, you know, it still affects me to stay, but I slowly realized that the root of so many of my struggles over time, you know, into high school into college because just for everyone's sake, I was 11 years old and my parents separated, they later got divorced and so in the years that followed that there's just a lot of pain and a lot of problems that came along with that, and so did some things that really helped got new friends got into my faith, those things were really good, but I still felt broken. And so I realized over time that man, so much of this Brokenness, whether it was loneliness, anxiety, depression, you know, being some symptoms, a lot of anger for me, you know, as a young person struggles in my relationships, like all those things kind of started bubbling to the surface and I was able to tie it back, at least on a basic level, like, okay, this has something to do with my family, but it really didn't hit me until even after college when I was on a flight from philadelphia to Chicago. I was just visiting my now wife when we were dating, now I visit her and her family and I was heading back and I don't even know what happened that weekend when I was visiting her or you know, why I had this thought, but something happened in the relationship, There was some struggle there, whether it was like me struggling to be vulnerable and open up or some trust issue, I'm not quite sure what it was, but I remember sitting on the plane, I was in like a window seat. I'm looking out the window into the night sky and I was just thinking like, why in the world do I struggle so much in relationships? Like why do relationships feel so much harder for me than, you know, for my friends or other people that I've met. And then as I was reflecting on it more, it just hit me that man, like I, this was never really taught, you know, I didn't see a great example of what a healthy relationship looked like in my family and more than anyone else. And as you and I know that's like our school, that's our school of Law, that's how we learned how to love and build relationships within our families. And so it just started to click for me. Like it made so much sense that I didn't know how to do this thing that I was never taught to do. And so I just saw the need to like learn that and at a deeper level to to heal a lot of the wounds that I was dealing with. And so that kind of set me on a path personally to like seek out the healing which I began years prior. Didn't just start at that point, but it really kind of hit me in the face then. And that was actually the impetus for resort. I I just had to realize man, like I cannot be alone in this. In fact, I knew a lot of other people who are struggling with similar things. And so eventually led to creating restored building this podcast and the other resources that we've developed. So, you know, I can relate to what you're saying Miranda and uh we're certainly you and I are certainly not alone. Isn't that right? And uh, and we've heard a lot of, you know, stories of people who've, you know, dealt with similar things. Um, did you wanna talk about that? Yeah. So, you know, we've kind of looked at a lot of the research that talks about how, you know, Children of divorce are affected and also Layla Miller came out with a great book called Primal Loss and we've talked about that on the show. I know several times and it covers the stories of a lot of Children divorce as adults and how they came to the realization that their parents divorce affected them. And I think they, the the hard part is for them to realize looking back why they struggled so much and they see it especially in their relationships and marriages and sometimes failed marriages and for them to realize and to make that connection is so powerful. But also I think there's kind of a especially with people who are, you know, maybe older, there's almost like this regret of like man, I wish I had known earlier and made the connection earlier and worked on this sooner and so of course, you know, it's never too late and that's like the great news, but I think it's also very helpful, you know, for them to put their experience into words and you know, we have on our blog, the story section where people can submit their stories and I think that that's really helpful because it's very cathartic for us to just kind of talk about our experiences in that way because a lot of times there's really never an invitation for us to do. So, you know, it's kind of one of those things that we carry around um sometimes, you know, unaware, but even when there's a level of awareness, we have very little opportunity to talk about it because we don't want to hurt, you know, our family, we don't want to shock our friends or um you know, be vulnerable in that way and um it's just not something that's kind of discussed a lot. I think divorce is kind of a taboo subject in a sense, like we don't want to feel like we're condemning anyone and so we really don't get the opportunity very often to discuss our experience. And I think for, you know, people who participated in books like Primal Loss or who submit their stories on our website or things like that, it's like very cathartic for them to to experience, to be able to put their experience into words. And I know that, You know, we did some research on the power of writing and how that can be so conducive to healing. And for me personally, I wrote a post called your divorce that helped me, you know, and we talked about that in an earlier podcast episode two, that helped me come to terms with how the divorce affected me, and it was just very, just helpful to put it into words and there's kind of a sense of closure with that. So, anyways, we we've done a lot, we've read a lot of the research and we've seen over and over again, people, you know, tell their stories and even as adults who, you know, maybe have been married for a long time, they notice that they are affected by the breakdown of their family and so there's kind of a a sense of camaraderie or there should be a sense of camaraderie because we are, there's a lot of us and we've all kind of been impacted by the breakdown of our family and um healing is possible, but I think it's important for us to know that we're not alone in the suffering and in the healing journey. I remember interviewing gen it was episode 11, the title of the episode was um I thought my parents divorce didn't affect me and it was a fascinating episode and she told me in the episode, if you guys want to go listen to it, you can that she honestly thought like, for years of her life, I forget exactly when her parents divorced, but it was like earlier on, and uh you know, then years later she honestly thought that just didn't affect her until she was like in her mid twenties and she had an emotional breakdown. She was on a mission trip actually in Central America, and she still actually didn't make the full connection then, but it was not long after that, because she just kind of woke up to this fact that like, man that, you know, the struggles I've had with my emotions, the loneliness that I've dealt with, like all these other issues and relationships, they had the root and the breakdown of her family and so there was this like, thawing out period or waking up people talk about different ways, you know, connecting the dots, putting the pieces together if you want to talk about it, where she realized like, oh, you know, my struggles aren't random, you know? And truly not everyone is affected the same. Like we wouldn't say that. Um there's just cases where it's like you're more likely to struggle in this way if you come from a broken family. But you know, we can say almost always from the research we've seen in the stories we've heard that going through your parents divorce coming from a family where there's a lot of extreme dysfunction that that's traumatic and it has very real effects and we don't always recognize those effects and if we do, we might not, you know, again trace them back to their route. But the good news is we have a tool to help you guys identify how you were affected so you can heal those wounds. But first man, I wanted to talk a little bit about, you know, why do you think it's such a challenge for us to recognize how we were affected by the breakdown of our families by our parents divorce because it seems like it shouldn't be that hard and some people listening maybe like this isn't that hard, but it truly is like we've heard that for this from a lot of people kind of like yeah, I don't think it was affected. I don't know how it was affected then you start digging into their life and you realize like actually there's all sorts of struggles that you're dealing with, you just didn't recognize that it came directly or indirectly from this trauma, from this experience that you had. So why do you think it's such a challenge to recognize that it's a good question? I think one of the answers to that is the cultural um dilemma we're facing, which is just a very, you know, large percentage of marriages do end in divorce. So it's extremely common. We see it all the time and it's portrayed, especially the media sometimes as either neutral or positive event. And so there's kind of this um subliminal subliminal lesson, we're taught that divorce is really, it's okay because of X, Y, Z, you know, different reasons, you know? And so we see it very frequently, we've kind of been taught, again not maybe not overtly, but at some level we're kind of communicated that it is acceptable that it is, you know, some a lot of times a very good thing. And so it kind of makes it difficult for us to um make that connection because we're in this mindset of, well, you know, divorce happens all the time, like how how can this be a traumatic event if it happens all the time. You know, how can this be a negative thing if people say that it's it's good and that it's healthy and etcetera, etcetera. So I think there's just a lot of challenges that comes with when you're kind of culture is telling you that this is okay, that it's normal, that, you know, in fact it might be even good. And so we're kind of facing that at odds with our own experience and at odds with the symptoms that it's almost like, I think we talked a lot about this how we can be gas lighted sometimes. So I think that's one of the main reasons that that it's so hard for us to recognize this as negative and that's something that has a severe impact on us. Yeah. And for anyone who isn't familiar with that term gaslighting, you might not just expanding what we mean by that. Yeah. So I believe it was like that had to do with actual lights where people, like people were like slowly dimming the lights and you know, someone's like, oh, the lights are different and they're like, no, no, they're not, they're fine. You know? And it was like, um, I think that's kind of the origin of the term gaslighting, but basically, you know, we use it as a, as a, as a word for making normalizing something or saying like there's no problem when there really is. And so it's, you know, it's essentially we're being lied to, but it's, it's very subtle. So it's hard to pick up on, it's hard to combat because of that, okay. No, that makes sense. So it's basically like a form of manipulation where someone is kind of saying like, you know, you're like, hey, you know, my foot hurts and you know, you might be like bleeding and someone's like, no, actually you're fine, everything's great. Maybe that's an extreme example, but it gets the point across. So that makes so much sense. I think another reason why it can be so hard to just like connect the dots between our struggles today and what we went through in our families is that often divorce itself is promoted as like this great thing. You know, there's this whole line, our culture that, you know, the if you're unhappy in your marriage, just get divorced and go seek, you know, happiness elsewhere. Like with another person for example. And so what can happen to us as the Children is that we, you know, since it's being promoted as it's a good thing and people might even say things like, well everyone's happier and that we feel like, well if everyone's happier, then I have no right to be damaged by this. I have no right to feel badly about it. Like do I not want my parents to be happy? Like it's such a tricky question to navigate when people, you know, throw that to you, like, don't don't you want your parents to be happy. It's like, yeah, I do, but not, you know, at any cost, we've used this analogy before, but it's like if if someone's happiness and found is found in doing something like super immoral or illegal, it's like, well, no, we're not going to promote that in a similar way. I'm not saying, you know, divorce is legal or anything like that, but in a similar way, if you know something that's truly bad for the Children is being promoted as this great thing, then we end up with this really difficult situation where the Children again think that, oh, gosh, I'm hurt by this is painful for me, I'm affected by it, but they're told that no, it's actually a great thing and it puts us in this spot where we just kind of like, don't do anything about it. We feel like we have no right to be damaged by it. What else would you add? Why? It's hard to recognize this? Well, at one point, I want to add about your what you said with our parents happiness, I think it is very difficult, you know, when people when that our parents happiness is kind of brought into the question because of course we love them and we want them to be happy. But I think what a lot of people don't know is that actually a lot of the research kind of shows that people after a divorce, there may be a temporary uptick in personal happiness, but a lot of, most of the time it goes back to where it was before or lower. So I think to that's also a lie that we've been told a lot is that like, oh, this is gonna make your parents happy and it's like, well maybe in some cases there is an overall increase in our parents happiness, but I think a lot of the times, it's actually very temporary fix and people go back to where they were before, but I think another issue is we get really comfortable in dealing with the symptoms, so it's in the sense that we're used to it and it's just our normal and it's just our, yeah, it's just, it's all we know and so I think it's hard for us to believe that there's a problem when we've gotten so good at coping with the problem and it's just for us it's it's normal. And so I think a big part of it is, especially for us who maybe experienced our our parents divorced at a younger age, you know, and we just grow up dealing with coping in the best way we know how, which unfortunately is a lot of times very unhealthy, but we grow up doing that, we can become really accustomed to it and so it becomes very difficult to see our coping mechanisms as what they are, which is coping mechanisms and a lot of times very unhealthy coping mechanisms. So I think time, you know, build those habits, which makes them hard to recognize as unhealthy or dysfunctional, Yeah, we just get comfortable, we're comfortable in our wounds, even if things are like, you know, really mess up. I'm trying to think of a good analogy, one might be like your room could be like a total mess and yet it seems normal because it's always been that way. Um and so to you, it's not messy, but if someone else were to come into your room and see like, oh your room is actually like a complete mess, there's clothes everywhere, you know, papers on the ground, like chairs flipped over, your bed's not made, like all that stuff. It's like, no, this is actually everything I knew, I never even knew, you can like organize the room then you wouldn't know what to compare it to, sort of thing. So I don't know if that's the best analogy, but I hope that makes sense. Everyone. 11 thing I wanted to add on this too, I saw a real on instagram the other day by Adam Young. If you guys aren't familiar with him, he hosts the podcast called the place we find ourselves great, great podcasts, we love it. He was sharing a story about how when he was in high school, he asked his dad, he had known a lot of friends of his that were getting, you know, their parents were getting divorced, they came from really broken families, maybe one of their siblings was like hooked on drugs or whatever, just really sad dysfunctional situations. And so Adam asked his dad, he's like dad, you know, why are all these families so messed up? Those were his words in our families, like so good and so healthy. And one of the points he made was that he up to that point. He had been physically abused by his dad, his dad like really terrorized him, he said and he actually was sexually abused by his mom and yet he just felt like their family was good and healthy when in reality it's like, no, no actually there's some like really unhealthy things going on but he didn't know any better. That was his normal that that was what he was used to. And so I think it's similar here like we can go through life dealing with you know, maybe intense anxiety, We can go through life dealing with depression, just kind of feeling lifeless all the time, struggling with some sort of injection, whether that's a substance like drugs or alcohol or maybe sex or porn and it's just kind of learn to live with it that we think its like not weird, it's it's normal for us, even even if it's not even if it's not healthy, it's not good. It's not what we're you know, made for, meant to be. So I thought that was like really eye opening. I think another reason too, you you already touched on this a little bit Miranda is that we we avoid exploring that the damage that was maybe caused by a broken family because we don't wanna hurt our parents, because if we, you know, go into that on a deep level, we might start feeling like some sort of anger or abandonment or even rejected by mom or dad, even if even if mom and dad didn't intend that in any way, which is often the case, they don't intend it, it's just what happens. Um, it might be really, really difficult to kind of bring up those feelings because we feel like if we, you know, go there, we're damaging our parents. So we did touch on this a little bit before, but I just wanted to bring light to it again, saying that this is, I think why it can be so challenging. It's almost like we kind of block out this connection again between our struggles today, these symptoms that we've experienced and the breakdown um, of our family, but anything to add to that and anything else that, I mean, I think we probably touched on this already, but I think just to emphasize that it is very painful to, to think and talk about it. And um, I think, you know, very strong instinct that we have as humans, is to avoid pain. And so it's like, why would I why would I try to, you know, feels like almost inflict pain on myself by revisiting these wounds and these painful experiences if I can just keep doing what I'm doing and not experience that pain, and so, um, it's a very, you know, kind of counterintuitive process, because, you know, we've kind of been trained to avoid pain at all costs, and so to confront these painful memories and events in our, in our past can feel redundant at best and very painful and, and, and, and difficult. So, I think it's just important to remember that, like, there is a type of pain that is fruitful in a way, which is a necessary part of healing, you know, but it but it is possible to work through it. Yeah, no, it's, I mean, there's so many analogies, like going to the dentist when your tooth is, like rotting, you know, getting a cavity filled or getting a surgery on your broken ankle, like, it's going to be painful to go through that healing, but in the end you're going to be better off. And I think that's what I would challenge people to do here, and I'm sorry if we're gonna beating a dead horse here guys, but we really want to make this point clear and just talk to this problem, because we've seen it so often, you know, if you think that you're getting by in life, if you you're comfortable where you at, where you're at, like, I get that, there's nothing wrong with that in particular, but if you want better, right, then, you know, digging into some of your past, digging into the symptoms that you're currently currently experiencing is necessary? And so if you want to become the best, you, if you want to thrive, if you want to find the love, the happiness, the freedom that you truly long for. If you look, you know, on a deep level inside yourself, if you want to avoid repeating, you know, your parents mistakes, if you want to avoid repeating the dysfunction, the divorce in your family is going to avoid hurting the people that you love the most that then you really have to heal, healing is not optional. It's required. And again, just like with physical wounds, healing is not possible until you first recognize and inspect and diagnose the woman, like a doctor cannot treat an illness that he first doesn't diagnose and understand. And therapist Adam Young, who I mentioned before, he said when it comes to experiencing healing, naming how you've been harmed is about 70% of the battle and that sounds super simplistic. It's like, okay, I can like put a name to what I've been through or the ways in which I was wounded, but it's so true. And another example of that is like if you've ever had some sort of um an illness that you couldn't diagnose or you maybe you've known someone who has like somewhat of a mystery illness, whether it's cancer or something else, it can be agonizing to be like why in the world do I feel this? Why? Why in the world am I struggling with this? And there's so much power in just knowing like, oh, this is the disease, this is the problem because once you've recognized and put a name on it and diagnosed it, then you can see, oh now I can seek out the tools, the treatment to overcome this, to heal this, to become healthy, whole to gain full function of whatever. Like you break your arm to get your arm healed so you can use it again um and just move on in life to not stay stuck and stay there. And so to, to help you guys do that to diagnose your wounds you can heal. We built a tool, an assessment and Miranda, would you tell us about it? Yeah. So we, you know, over the past, I don't know, a year or so we've been looking a lot very closely at the common struggles that Children of divorce face and we kind of came up with all these different categories, emotional problems, relationship problems, you know, spiritual kind of challenges. And we came up with an assessment, a survey to help us identify like those problem areas. And again, this is based on the research that we've seen based on the trends, you know, because of the hundreds of stories that we've heard about it. So we were able to come up with, I think what is a very comprehensive survey about the emotional problems, the struggles with coping the romantic relationship issues, the problems with the with your parents, um and the struggles in your relationships with God and then a few other areas and we just came up with questions about all those different issues for you to kind of evaluate where you are with those different areas and how you may still be affected in those areas. Um, and I think a lot of us we may feel like we may have some awareness of like, yeah, you know, my my parents divorced, I think it may have affected me in this way or I I do struggle with relationships, but we haven't maybe sat down to really consider it in in depth. And I think this survey will help you have so much, so much better understanding of how you're being affected and therefore, you know, open the door for healing in all of those areas. I just, I just think it'll give so much more self awareness to everyone who takes it and who maybe wants to grow, grow in virtue and have healthy relationships and undo the cycle of divorce and dysfunction in their families. So it is free. It is, you know, confidential, it doesn't take too long and that time is an excellent investment into you. Just growing as a person. It's not, you know, we're not psychologists, we're not, you know, medical professionals, but it will give you a good idea of how you were affected, how you're being affected. So you can actually take steps towards finding healing because I think without awareness of the problem areas, I just think it's very hard to work on those problem areas without first knowing what they are. And I think one of the benefits too is you kind of get it all in one place, you know, at the end of this assessment, you'll get a report of, you know what you answered basically and then you'll be able to go back and see like, oh you know, this is kind of like all of my struggles are all these different things that I've struggled with that are in one spot, one report. And so you can see, oh this is how I rated my anxiety, this is how I rated this aspect of the relationships I've been in my relationship with my parents, my relationship with God, like all these different things, you'll be able to see it in one spot because I think often um when we go through life and we recognize like an area that we struggle in um if we do tend to think about it, it's always in isolation, it's never like kind of this comprehensive, like okay these are the areas I'm strong in these areas on weekends, so it kind of gives you this sort of assessment of, okay, this is you know, in these areas that I haven't struggled in these areas that I have struggle and you kind of see it comprehensively altogether at once in that report. So there's a lot of benefits to it Miranda already mentioned. Some of them. Are there any other benefits that you would add to? You know, investing the time into taking this free assessment? I would say, even if you think you're fine and maybe you are, you know, maybe you are doing really well. I think there's always room for improvement. So I think as people who want to be the best versions of ourselves, I think this survey can help us do that. Even if maybe you feel like you weren't affected by your dysfunctional family or maybe you feel like your family wasn't, you know, broken in any way. I think there's always room for us to grow. And I think this tool will help you kind of combat complacency in your life, especially in your relationships and take it to the next level. So I think it's, you know, not necessarily just about fixing what's broken, but also improving what maybe is already good. Nice. No, I like that. And like you said, you know, it's a tool to help you diagnose your Brokenness. You can heal it. Um It also is just going to save you a lot of time from needing to research this yourself because you could, you could read a bunch of books, you can do the research that we've done. Um you know, the studies we've looked at, but it's gonna take you a long time. And so we're essentially saving you time saving you money by going through this assessment, then you needing to research all this yourself. And I've also, you know, we've seen this with the blog like you mentioned before where when people share their stories, there's this sense of just like not really feeling as alone, which which I think is powerful. So I think once you go through this and recognize like man all these questions that they're asking, I can relate to and if this is based on research and stories of a lot of other people, then they must struggle with this stuff too. Then I'm not as weird as I thought I was, I thought I was alone. I thought I was the only one who struggle with it. I'm not strange. I I, you know, I'm just like all these other people and so I think, I think that's really helpful. One thing I would add too is once you go through this, you can even bring the results, the report to your counselor or to your spiritual director and even a mentor and get their advice on, you know, how to heal and how to grow it again, it gives you kind of like Snapchat, an assessment of where you're at in life and the areas that maybe you need to work on. So I think there's a lot of good good there and kind of summarizing to one of the main things when it comes to any sort of healing and growth that we've learned from the 12 step programs like alcoholics anonymous. That helps men and women who are struggling with an alcohol addiction. The first thing in the 12 step program is really to admit the problem and our ability to admit the problem really rests on our ability to just recognize it to begin with and understand it. And so that's what we're helping you guys do in this assessment. So to close out if you want to take the assessment, it's really simple. Three steps, just go to my broken family dot com. My broken family dot com. You'll just answer the questions and the assessment. Again, you can be anonymous if you want to. It's a confidential thing. We're not going to like tell, you know, everyone in our audience that you in particular answer, you know, these questions, of course we can take that very, very seriously and we'll keep your particular individual answers private. And then you get to see your results. So you get to see the snapshot of of what you answered. Again, go to my broken family dot com or you can just click on the link in the show notes and again, you might be very surprised by your results. You might think that you're kind of in, in one place in life and then you realize, oh, I'm in a different place than I thought I was and that can be really empowering, really helpful to uh to grow. And so again, we've heard stories of people just kind of listening to our content or consuming some of our resources using them, who say, wow, I just, I never realized that, you know, people from broken families typically struggle with this or that, and I've heard people even who shared with me in their sixties and or fifties and sixties, let's say, who just never had the words to use to say, like, oh, I didn't realize this was like the way I could talk about this problem that I had, like, coming from a broken family and it's like extremely helpful for them, or, you know, again, like I said, I didn't realize that other people who came from broken families as well struggled in this way. So, again, go to my broken family dot com, my broken family dot com. And you can take that assessment if you know someone who comes from a divorce or a broken family who could benefit from this tool to go ahead and send them that link, or you could just send them the link to this podcast episode. So, in closing, thank you so much for listening Miranda. If you have any final thoughts, I love to hear them, thank you so much for coming on the show as well. Again, No, I, I'm excited for this tool. I think it's gonna be really helpful to a lot of people and I just encourage anyone who's listening to take advantage of it because I think it can actually be the catalyst for some really big and positive changes. So I just encourage people who might be considering to take it to go ahead and just make that investment um time wise and do it for yourself in your future relationships or current relationships. And I think you'll be really surprised at how how helpful it could be to just get started on your healing journey and to understand where you are and where you could be. I'd like to leave you with this to reflect on how were you affected by your parents force or your broken family and most importantly, how are you still affected today answering that question? Might honestly be the key to begin healing and building the life and relationships that you want to help answer that question. You could take our new assessment by just going to my broken family dot com or just click on the link in the show notes again, It will help you diagnose and name your Brokenness so you can heal it. Thank you so much for listening. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them and always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life

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#089: How to Become Fit and Healthy | Dakota Lane

According to research, people like us from divorced or broken families are typically less physically healthy. If that describes you, or you simply want to become healthier, this episode will help. 

According to research, people like us from divorced or broken families are typically less physically healthy. If that describes you, or you simply want to become healthier, this episode will help. 

Fitness and nutrition coach Dakota Lane shares how the abuse and dysfunction in his family impacted his relationships and how he’s found healing. He also offers advice on how to become fit and healthy by answering questions such as:

  • How much water should you drink every day?

  • How much should you sleep?

  • Is exercise or nutrition more important?

  • If you have very little time to work out, what can you do? 

  • How do you stay motivated and disciplined?

Hire Dakota or view his services

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As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Did you know that according to research, people like us who come from divorced or broken families are typically less physically healthy and if that describes you or maybe you simply want to become healthier. This episode is gonna help a lot. I'm joined by fitness and nutrition coach Dakota Lane, who shares his story, how the abuse and dysfunction in his family growing up really impacted him and his relationships, but he also shares how he's found healing. He also offers advice on how to become fit and how do we get healthier by answering questions like how much water should you drink every day? How much sleep should you get? Is exercise or nutrition more important? If you have very little time to work out, what can you do and how do you stay motivated and disciplined? His story is honestly really inspiring and his advice is really, really helpful, super practical stuff. So keep listening. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce separation or broken marriage so you can feel whole again, I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli, thank you so much for listening. This is episode 89 and as mentioned, my guest today is Dakota Lane. Dakota is a husband father, he's an international nutrition and fitness coach and he's the owner of Dakota Lane Fitness where he creates personalized nutrition plans and exercise programs with around the clock accountability and coaching to help you experience life at the heights. Dakota has won numerous awards, including first place in the Rocky Mountain men's physique championship, He's been featured on nine news, the coaster podcast and the Christopher nick show. He's been a keynote speaker at seek regis university, Fort Hays State University, Inferno Men's Conference and more. He's a certified personal trainer and holds a master's degree in leadership. He lives in colorado with his wife, Caitlin and their daughter. So without waiting any longer. Here's my conversation with Dakota Lane Dakota. So good to have you on the show man. Thanks for making time. Absolutely man. Thanks for having me, glad to be here. I want to get into your fitness business and how you coach people on fitness and nutrition. But before we get there, I'd like to start with your story. I'm curious how old were you when things at home became dysfunctional and however comfortable you are sharing what happened there. Yeah, so it's a pretty wild story. I mean it starts before I was born, I think it does for most of us with, with my parents, obviously on their own dysfunction in their own life. My dad kind of grew up in, in somewhat dysfunctional family but um, was just kind of his own, his own breed. Um, and just had a lot of, you know, struggles himself. He ended up becoming a navy seal actually really incredible and then a really successful entrepreneur businessman, but alcoholism, drug abuse like throughout the years, a lot of kind of just dysfunction and Brokenness there for himself. Um, hit up sobering up before he met my mom but was homeless at one point before that on my mom's side. Um she was kind of crazy if you will from from very early age started smoking and drinking at nine years old, moved to new york when she was 18, became an actress out there, very successful career, but also kind of the party scene um drugs and alcohol kind of took their course and she actually also ended up homeless living in the subways of new york and um sobered up as well. Met my dad, so that's kind of the foundation of of where they met as they say, in alcoholics anonymous, like typically you shouldn't have to addicts marrying each other and so it broke that rule to start, my mom wasn't supposed to have kids actually, she was, she was medically infertile and so both my brother and I were miracles and um kind of started off actually just on a wasn't wasn't plan and my parents weren't married, they just kinda got together and my brother happened and they started to make it work from there. So the first thing like really admirable that they were committed to like making that happen, A lot of people don't have the gift of that of parents who kind of stick around in a situation like that, but we did and even though in the beginning my dad wasn't didn't want to be a part of eventually jumped on board and married my mom and that was that and I was born three years after that. So that's kind of where things started and it's funny, I was actually um in therapy today just talking about my parents and their own personality disorders and things like that. And just learning more about their own past really gave me a lot of insight. So just to kind of make things brief, they really started kind of as long as I can remember a lot of of just abuse, mental, emotional, verbal and then later on physical and it was a lot of, a lot of just like of a controlling environment and it wasn't, it wasn't like always that way. It wasn't around the clock per se, but it was very, it was very up and down with my dad. Um it was very high and low and so just, you know, with his own dysfunction, a lot of it, he took out of my mom, but then eventually kind of more towards me and my brother. So you know, I remember many, many times growing up going to bed and just like listening and hearing him screaming at her and just, you know, a lot of that stuff that people like us who grew up into these kind of homes experience. And my mom's been through the wringer ever since. She's had cancer three times. Um the first time when I was in elementary school and then two times later on as I got into middle school and high school, um she also had a brain tumor. And so a lot of just stuff dealing with really like severe medical diagnosis is and really really sick for most of my life. Um and really should have died was really kind of on the brink of death many times and coupling that with my dad And his own narcissism and just his own behavioral stuff, there was just a lot of dysfunction. So he was sober as I mentioned. But things got really rocky my sophomore year of high school when he relapsed, he was sober for 22 years and then relapsed my sophomore year of high school. And from there it was kind of just things just unraveled. He got really heavily back into drinking obviously and then got into cocaine as well. And I think the craziest thing for me, I mean my whole life, I had always kind of had to take more of like a parental role if you will, your parents are supposed to pour into you and I seem to find myself pouring more into them. But really within those moments it was like he was coming to me for advice and not just like good advice but even just like abusive advices, I would call them like Dakota, how do I deal with your mom, Like she's so hard to deal with and I want to divorce her and X, Y and Z. And you know, he threatened divorce my entire life hundreds of times and actually file divorce papers at one point and recall them. It was more like a power play controlling mechanism. But I'm kind of seeing him on the you know that position just really unraveled and then my mom, you know going through cancer, him living with his relapse alcoholism and he ended up getting a domestic violence charge and going to jail for that. And then he got out and later on went went to jail for a D. U. I. So yeah just a lot of a lot of dysfunction and and to this day there's there's still quite a bit of function dysfunction they've they've remained married. My dad actually moved to Cancun Mexico about seven years ago. He's been there pretty much ever since lives there full time and my mom travels back and forth from Denver to Mexico. And yeah very interesting relationship and I was actually like just getting really good insight today during therapy about kind of why they've stayed married and how the interplay of my mom's own personality. Um Well personality disorders and my dad's like kind of exchange to kind of create this toxic cycle and they're both some of the most amazing people you'll ever meet which is just which is wild. Um Nobody would really ever have any clue. And I think that's the case a lot of times. Some dysfunctional people is like you don't always see it on the outside and that's what can be, it is what happens behind closed doors other people don't necessarily see. So, you know, growing up going to church, people would just see us as the lane family, you know, the successful business guy, the, you know, super loving mom and then behind closed doors of experiencing something just totally different and I think, you know, other people would relate to that. So for me it was, it's it's kinda, yeah, it's very interesting that they've, you know, stayed married, but as my mom says, you know, I made vows and I want to stay committed to those. So I've always admired that in her and you know, there's times I think, you know, justifiably that she could certainly have some more separation and now she kind of has that naturally just with the location and I think that's been a real blessing actually is that she's able to get kind of a break. So yeah, that's just to share, kind of a bit into it and, you know, it's obviously affects me and my own ways, It's affected my brother in his own ways and it's been a very wild up and down ride and we all have different, different levels of dysfunction, but it was certainly, it was, it was difficult, it was really tough to grow up in that environment and yeah, it created a lot of, a lot of really tough things to work through as I have been growing up. But that's kind of the that's the whole point. You can either become bitter, you can become better and so I'm trying to choose the better out. Thanks No man, so good. Well thanks for sharing so openly and yeah, it's a lot of people find themselves in the same spot like a ton of dysfunction in their families and even if their parents aren't officially separated or divorced, they might act like they're separated or divorced or things might be so unhealthy that they might even benefit from some time apart. So I totally get that. But man such an the word that came to mind when you were describing your childhood and just yeah, the years growing up is just intense, you know, intense dysfunction. It's like that's a ton to go through and being the man you are, you know, knowing you a little bit like I'm so impressed that you are where you are because most people do the opposite opposite direction and we'll get into all of that and you alluded to it already. I'm curious like how did it affect you growing up and all that? How did it affect you over the years? What were the main ways would you say? Yeah, it was really tough. Yeah, I mean my own temperament, I'm a very empathetic, very compassionate person and that's where it was very tough for me to kind of constantly be in these abused positions and then you know and then having my dad come back and ask forgiveness and things like that, and then, you know, just constantly taking them back, kind of, created my own toxic cycle. Yeah, I think it affects everyone definitely depending on our own personality and for me, I was really, really grateful that decently early on. I mean, it's kind of how I got into my faith a bit. Honestly, it was just kind of, I got to the point where I was like, I don't I can't do this anymore, like, if this is all life has to offer, I'm out, like, this is awful, and that's kinda how I found my my faith, but then I threw that, I found some really good people to, kind of help and started therapy early on. And so for me, it was, like, I didn't see as much of the immediate effects for myself in those moments. Um I was just really trying to you just try to stay alive and try to cope with it as best you can. It's, kind of more later on, like, getting into relationships, getting into a work life, running a business, you know, having kids relationships with the people that's really where you start to, kind of, see, at least for me to see where it comes out more thankfully, like, I didn't get into substances myself um I never, my brother, kind of, you know, he was more attracted to, like, the escapism of substances. I was much more the type of person I really wanted to enter in. I wanted to be the, like, the confront, er so I would confront my dad and I wanted to deal with something right away, and that's led to several fights with my dad physical fights, and so for me, it was like, I really wanted to deal with it, so, and, kind of enter into it, so, for me, like, where it had affected me more, was more in the emotional side, and so I I started to seek more emotional affirmation, um and so, like, with, you know, relationships with girls is really where it started to kind of impact me, was just searching for that affection and searching for affirmation stuff that you normally should be getting from your home, if you're in a functional home um that I just wasn't getting. And so it was kind of, it was an interesting scenario where I had a lot of decent, like, head knowledge, just based off my own research, my faith people that I had surrounded myself within my trajectory of my life when I was really getting in my faith in the plan on going to a catholic seminary afterwards after high school. So, I was, I was kind of coupling this whole thing of, like, building all these virtues, having all this head knowledge, but also having a ton of these just, like, behaviors that I was trying to figure out, like, man, why is this stuff so hard for me to overcome or like why am I? You know, I don't have such strong inclinations and of course it was because of a lot of dysfunction. So yeah, the primary ways was for me, looking for that emotional affirmation as a man. Um you know, am I good enough? Do I have what it takes, that type of thing and trying to get those answers? And then now, for me, it's played out later on. So yeah, I was really grateful that it didn't affect me in the same way that it does for some people in their own childhood. Like I didn't become super rebellious, I didn't become super like, violent or angry. Um in fact, it really made me dive more deeply into my own heart and if anything, it softened my heart in certain ways, which is unique. So it's kind of more so now doing the work later on to see, you know, what were ways that it did affect me and how is it still affecting me? Wow. No, it makes so much sense. And you're actually not alone in the relationship struggle piece, like how some of the effects from the your dysfunctional family came out later in life, especially in your relationships. The research that I've seen says that that's actually the biggest area of our lives that's impacted by our parents, divorce or dysfunction at home, and the basic reason is that we really lack a roadmap for love, like we've seen a really broken model of love and marriage and so when it's our turn, we feel lost, we don't have the skills that we need, we don't know what it looks like to build a marriage to build healthy relationships and so you're not alone there at all, that was certainly my story as well, but that man so much there, thanks for let me let me, I just want to mention one thing that you mentioned about the marriage piece, I think it was really critical for me, as I mentioned, I went to a catholic seminary after high school, so I was looking at becoming a catholic priest, which is pretty wild um and during my formation, you know, they do a lot of the places that I was that had really good formation and I was extremely convicted, like I would say I was 1000% convinced I was going to be a priest, like beyond a shadow of a doubt, I had so many experiences that were just beyond explanation of things and when I began really diving into my formation, the really key piece that I began to see when I ended up deciding to leave seminary was that just like you mentioned the roadmap of love that I had been given the model of marriage that I had been given, it was broken and so I realized like as a kid that I kind of made this inner inner vow if you want to call it that or this inner impression that if you want to be truly great, if you want to be truly successful, if you want to be somebody who's awesome or holy, you can't do that in a marriage because marriages are broken, they're messy. And when I began to realize healing in that, that's when I realized that like, oh, I'm actually not called to be in seminary, I'm not called to be a priest, like I'm actually called to live out a beautiful marriage. So it was just, I just want to mention that that for me it was um it was that that little shift of transition of like the fact that the math that I had had made me so jaded towards that experience that I had felt, you know, something completely different and thankfully I had gone there and I got so much good formation, made so many good friends and healed through a lot of my own issues. Um so it's cool to kind of see the way God works, but it kind of took that realization of like, wow, yeah, my my model of marriage was so broken that I just kind of subconsciously decided that I can't, I can't be a part of that. So yeah, very interesting, Yeah, thanks for adding that, wow, no and use the word subconscious and you have me here thinking, I wonder if we all on some level, those of us who come from broken families believe that we're doomed to repeat the same dysfunction that we saw at home. And maybe we believe that we can't succeed in a marriage. We can't be like healthy whole fully live people because I know that's something I've wrestled with to just even believing that a healthy marriage can exist. And then further than that, believing that I could actually accomplish that it is a real struggle. Yeah, absolutely. And I think for myself, I think there's two kind of ways to go about it. I'm a very like competitive person myself, but I think for me it was like, yeah, I think there is that subconscious, like just an underlying doubt of like, man, can I can I actually do this. For me, it was almost like I will do this, like I want to do this so badly and I'm competitive so I'm gonna do everything that I can not to repeat those cycles and that that can be a good thing, but it can also become like unhealthy because you start to like kind of be in denial and it's like you don't see how it's actually affecting you. And I think it's better to have more of just like a realistic approach of like, okay, this is what I've been through, here's how it is affecting me. Um and then for me, like I said, being in therapy is just super good um to just like be more aware, but to again, just not repeat the cycle and that's obviously the message that you provide and the message that I would echo is like that there is hope that you don't have to repeat the cycle. And one thing that was really cool when I was talking to my therapist today, we were talking about just like actually the beauty of going through some of these things, it sounds like kind of craft because it's going through, it's horrible. You wouldn't wish it on anybody but going through it like the fruits that can be born out of some of these extremely tumultuous um scenarios are just so vibrant because of what you've been through and so like some of the most successful people in the world, some of the people that we look up to, like a lot of them come from really dysfunctional place and I think it it kind of like harbors this seed in us that kind of springs forth from like these ashes that it's kind of the phoenix where it's like new life rises and yeah, you, you you do see the cycle repeat a lot, but with the right support with the right people with the right whatever it may be, like, the trajectory can be so incredible. So for me it's like, it's never a shameful thing to be like, this is where I came from. Even for my parents, if I were to talk to them like, um, you know, they're aware of like of what happened and like they're not naive to it. So for them it's like, yeah, I do. I am, I glad it happened. No, it wasn't horrible. Yeah, there's a lot of horrible things, but I wouldn't be who I am today without it. And there's a lot of things about it that have made me better, you know, as weird as that is to say, no, I checked with you 100% and I think it is amazing to see how down the road, those really painful experiences like you said, so well can then be transformed into something that's really good and beautiful and even helpful to other people who might be going through that themselves. And I love how you're a few times you've said that, you know, you've put in the work, like you've gotten the formation as a person, You've worked on building virtue, you've disciplined yourself, you have the self mastery that you're continually working on every day. Um, you're, you're pursuing healing through therapy and I'm sure there's other things you pursued as well. And I think that that's key. That's so key. I love the quote from jerry rice, the NFL receiver, he said, I will do today what others won't, so I can do tomorrow, what others can't And I love that quote so much because it's like if you put in the 1% effort or not 1% effort, but make those 1% changes, those little improvements continually over time and that's what the quote is saying, like, you're gonna be able to have something that a lot of people can't have because of where they're at, and I think that's really beautiful and I've seen that in a lot of different areas of your life, which is amazing. Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. I think that's what can be scary for people is like you mentioned a lot of these things come out later on relationships and it can be scary because it's like some of these things have laid dormant and they don't necessarily come out until later on, especially when it comes to like sexual abuse and things like that. Um I know, you know, several people who had just like really difficult experiences um like on their wedding night even um something that should be so beautiful and like giving a gift of yourself and like, even just waiting to share this moment with your spouse and it becomes a kind of a trigger of trauma. And so you kind of get to this moment of crisis where you're like, oh my gosh, like, here I am like as an adult trying to start my life and I'm having all these traumatic things come up and it can be really discouraging to be like, man, am I ever gonna have healing? I thought I thought I got out of this, like, that happened when I was a kid or high school or whatever and so I think it's important to what you said, um it's important that even in my own business, which we'll talk about it, like it doesn't matter what age you are, our bodies are so resilient, our minds, our hearts, our spirits. Like you can heal, you can become better no matter the Brokenness that you've been through, no matter where you've been and that's what's super cool but can also be discouraging. That's why it's helpful to have people to kind of rally along with you because that you mentioned, no, it's not gonna happen overnight. You're not going to go to one therapy session and come out and just be the perfect role model wife or a, role model husband or mom or dad or employee or whatever it may be. It takes worse. Yeah, it would be really nice if we could just, yeah, shoot ourselves something and be healed. It would be nice. But it wouldn't, it wouldn't be, it wouldn't be true. It wouldn't, it wouldn't honor what we've been through and the fact that This hurt happens over time, over years, even, you know, obviously sometimes it's just one instance that can cause years of trauma, but yeah, it takes time to heal that and that's okay. Um and it's not going to be perfect, but for my experience, it's, it's worth, like you said putting in that 1% work, I love that. So good. Speaking of coping and healing, what were the maybe two or three things that helped the most? You already mentioned a bunch, but I'm just curious if you would add to that. Yeah. So number one I would say, well I guess I would, I would put them as equals um therapy and then for me, I don't know how to, it would be like kind of my my prayer life or just like my my fraternity with like brothers or other other people to kind of journey with me in my, you know, healing in my faith. So therapy really I would say is the number one thing and a lot of people have bad experiences from therapy. I just had a guy messaged me yesterday, um, and was telling me about, you know, I was encouraging him, you know, man try therapy. It's so, so freeing and he was like, I've tried and they were like, they kind of almost sounded abusive and so yeah, there's, there can be bad therapists out there, just like any any rule. But if you find a good one, it's so important. Honestly. If I were to have any piece of advice for anybody, whether you had a dysfunctional family or not, it's just like go to therapy honestly, it's just a way to have somebody to help you look at your life and to be better like and that's really what we're all looking to do anyways and if you find the right person, it's just so freeing and healing. So for me, um I've had several over the years, I started in high school um as kind of just part of my own, you know, journey towards seminary and then when I was in seminary, even out of seminary in college, I had therapist, I've had, you know, I've had really good ones over the years, I've had some who are okay. The one I have now is just phenomenal. And so that's that for me has been super super healing to have somebody that you can number one go to, who's going to validate what you've been through and be like, number one, I recognize that you've been through that and that that's super messed up, but and that how you're feeling is completely normal. And I think that's a, like that's a really tough thing is that we go through this dysfunction, it affects us in these ways that make us act in behaviors or have these feelings that are kind of shameful at times and we don't like to, you know, admit to it and it's nice to have somebody to be like, you're not a freak because you do that because you have this addiction because you, you know are abusive in whatever way it's like it makes sense that you are this way because of what you've been through. So now let's take what you've been through and try to unravel in a bit and see those parts of you that have been wounded and see if we can unburden them and he feel them so that you can kind of change your behavior now. So it's important I think to to know that you're not, you're not a freak. So yeah, that for me, therapy has been one and then for me, you know, prayer has been the other one that's just been absolutely transformative. And of course not everybody shares the same faith background. But I think for me it's about having recognizing kind of like a mentions that there's power outside of myself that I don't have control over that there's a plan for my life that there is a God who loves me and cares about me, who's also in those moments of dysfunction and of hurt, who knows that better than anyone else because he was there with me in that and so entering. It's a prayer for a lot of people can, you know, that could be, it could be also triggering if it's like, you know, your dad's the one who kind of gave you these issues and then people are talking about God as a father and it's like, no, my father is like a complete a hole, but you know when you begin to unravel that and realize what a true father should look like or how God actually interacts with us, how he made us, there's there's something beautiful to that. So those are the two main things and the third thing for me which will tie kind of into my business is, I don't know how I want to say, but living a fully human life, taking care of like human functions, eating well, sleeping well, taking care of my body, making good decisions with my health. It's amazing how many things can either diminish or go away in the psychological realm when you start to take care of your body, even something like when you look at the research and anxiety and, and depression, like the amount of anxiety and depression that can either be coped with mitigated or you know, hell altogether through living a life of, of balanced nutrition, fitness and taking care your body is amazing. Um there's some really fascinating research on it, so that for me is the other piece of like taking care of myself, because a lot of times dysfunction in our life is going to, it's going to kind of lead itself to dysfunction in other areas of our own life. And so, you know, that can happen with so many people with eating eating disorders or it can happen with just not taking care of ourselves for not believing that that were worth it to, to look good and feel good things like that. So those are kind of the three things that, for me have been really transformative dude, really wise and there's so much more, I want to learn from you. I'm already learning a ton, but thanks for sharing that and that research is fascinating because I think a lot of times people think of fitness and we'll get to this in a little bit. But as just, oh, I just want, you know, big arms or a six pack or whatever and it's like, no, no, it's actually so much more and there's so many benefits. I'm glad you touched on that and I appreciate it. I want to focus on your life for a little bit more here. And the question I have is, how is your life different now that you've been doing these things to heal, to build virtue to, you know, kind of transform that dysfunction into living like a really good, beautiful solid life. How's your life better now? Many ways? Many, many ways. I think the first thing is, as I mentioned, like the healing doesn't happen overnight. I've been going to therapy since I was in high school. I've been talking about these things that I've been through since I was in high school, I've, you know, tried to make amends with my dad over the years. Like I've done a lot of work and it doesn't happen overnight. So there's still areas in my life that are um, healing that are dysfunctional. Um, I think for me, the biggest way that it's different is that I'm able to recognize things a lot better. What I mean by that is especially with things like the type of therapy that I'm doing, which is like, I think it's called the internal family system basically you, you begin to start to learn about parts of yourself that over the years have been wounded and kind of abandoned, so imagine if you will, you're the seven year old kid in your house, your dad's coming home drunk and you know, you start to hear him like hitting your mom, whatever, screaming all that kind of stuff like that kid in that position, they can get left behind within ourselves and they create these wounded parts of ourselves that then kind of stay in the path and then as a result of that we create these other parts of ourselves where the firefighter parts manager parts protect your parts and these behaviors that protect that. So now, you know every time in your life or somebody you know where you're around somebody who's drunk, it's kind of triggering and you start to get like this anxiety and it's like angry, you don't know where it's coming from, it's that part of you that's kind of left behind, it still is like that seven year old kid who who hasn't been kind of brought to where you're at. So for me recognizing those parts of myself that have been wounded, give me more insight into where I met currently, so now when I'm in a conversation with my wife and she said something and I get triggered and I start to like get anxiety or anger in my mind, I'm able to say, well that makes sense, Like that's that's the part of me that X, Y or Z. That, you know, that's the part of me that used to listen to the events and wanted to protect my mom and the fact that my wife said something, I wanted to set a boundary with my mom is triggering something in me because I've always been there to protect them to fix things for my mom. So it gives me more recognition to be able to see things how they are and so what you're able to do then is you're able to act from a place of control as opposed to acting from a place of emotion. Um and so you, you operate your life instead of like from those parts, you operate your life from where you are currently and you recognize those parts, so those parts don't control you. And so for me that's the biggest difference is that I'm able to kind of see my life because those triggers are gonna come up no matter what, like they're gonna be there. The important part is how you react to those and how you're gonna cope and deal with those. And so for me now I'm able to just better recognize and you know, take control that situation. So that's one thing and then I would say the other for me is really being able to have more freedom in my relationships with others, but primarily my relationship with myself where I think sometimes dysfunction for us can almost kind of create this disassociation with ourselves. We're just like you just don't really know who you are because you've been either told all these lies all these years, if you felt all these things or the love that you should have got, you didn't or you know, we've believed these lies that were not good enough or whatever it may be. And so you don't have a clear idea of who you are as a man or woman and what you're about. And so for me that's been really freeing to know who I am and what I'm about and I can act from that place. And then when there's behaviors, temptations compulsion, whatever it may be that come up within me, I'm able to kind of mirror that against. Is this really who I am or what I'm about or is this something else that kind of happened to me that's triggering these things. And then in those situations like when you are around those drunk people and you have that trigger because your dad is an alcoholic, whatever you're able to stop and recognize it and say, okay, that's that part of me that feels that And you can say, you know, one of the things I do is like you ask that part, if you just give me a few moments, I know that you want to come protect me and that you feel like we're in a place of threat. I'm not, I'm 29 years old, I'm very capable of taking care of myself. If you just give me a few minutes to kind of like deal with this, we're going to be okay and then I'll kind of give you the attention, you need to kind of separate those emotions from your experience so that you're not just having to react everything, we have more control. So I know it's kind of a lot of different things, but just to kind of go back briefly to the two things, number one would be recognizing again, just those environmental things inside of me and reacting to and then knowing myself better of who I am, my identity. Um so I'm acting more from a place of of my true self if you will as opposed to a place of of wounded nous and Brokenness. So good, wow! So much there and like Dakota mentioned guys, that's Internal Family systems therapy, that's one particular therapy model that therapists will practice. And so if that sounds like something that would be helpful for you and if you're looking for a therapist, I'll mention something at the end about how we can help you find one. But if you're just looking on your own, that's just a great tip. If you want to do internal family systems, sometimes you'll see I. F. S. And it can be really, really helpful. It's a very effective therapy model. It's actually benefited me personally too, and I love what you said about you kind of get out of touch with yourself almost like a friend, like boyfriend, girlfriend, spouse, whatever, like, you know, you lose touch with your friends and you kind of don't know what's going on with them and there can be like frustrations between you because you're not like talking or spending time together. It's really the same with ourselves. And so I love that you mentioned all that and and one thing too that stood out to me is I think a lot of people in life just feel stuck. Like I think we just feel stuck, whether that's like our bodies aren't what we want them to be, we don't feel like we can like change that. We just feel stuck where our relationships aren't what we want them to be, or we feel so far from God, and we're like, just I don't know what to do, but I can't do anything about it? Yeah, I'm just curious like, what do you do in those moments in life where you feel stuck? Is there anything that you've learned that helps you to kind of get unstuck and move forward, because I think personally that's uh there's it's an indication one that there's some maybe Brokenness and trauma you need to deal with in two, it's an incredible opportunity for growth if you feel that stuck man. So I'm just curious what's helped you or what advice have you given to other people who feel stuck? Yeah, I would, I would kind of go back to my first point with the therapist, I think to make it a little bit more broad would be to to reach out to somebody who's going to be able to help you in in in the capacity that you need, whether that's encouragement and affirmation and just like, you know, telling you that you can do it, you can change, you can do whatever or whether it's somebody in a professional aspect who's gonna really help you to kind of overcome these obstacles and that for me has been what, what therapy has been or even if, you know, having certain mentors that I was able to go through, even if it wasn't a therapist over the years, I had several mentors who were just really critical that I could just be really open and vulnerable with and granted, you know, that's that's hard to find, it's hard to find people who not only number one you can trust, but number two who will relate because it's easier to find people, I can trust. It was harder though, you know, there's people that I could trust, that I could tell everything about my family and they just like, I don't know what to do with it because they've never been through themselves and like I don't know how to deal with that. Um so finding somebody who can relate to it and speak into it, and I think for me, like as humans, we're just we're made to be relational. I think that's why this dysfunction can be so so damaging is because it's the relationships that are dysfunctional, that are damaging, it's not just that you're sitting in your room, like thinking about thoughts about yourself that are creating this like spiral of dysfunction, it's relationships that are dysfunctional, and so in order to heal those, we need to have healthy relationships. And so that's why whether it's a therapist, whether it's a mentor, whether it's just a really good friend that you trust, reaching out to somebody to be able to share your stuck nous if you will or to share where you're at, but obviously already has the opportunity to kind of have that. And so, you know from a different perspective, I guess for me it's that's where prayer or just like self reflection has been so important. Um the reason why I would distinguish like prayer from self reflection and self reflection, for me, I'm very introspective anyways, but it was still more about like just me and kind of like me changing my life and and me fixing myself where prayer was more about like being transformed, um and not me transforming myself, but me allowing grace because of the way that I was created in love by love and for love to be able to be transformed and so that for me, like whether it's prayer self reflection of being able to just like honestly take a look at your life and you know, see is there another perspective that I can look at this from? You know? Yeah, maybe I'm so discouraged that I've tried to lose weight so many times my whole life and I just never have and maybe it's not because you actually like maybe it's not the actual weight loss itself, Maybe there's something else, like from a different perspective, there's something emotional, something that's hindering it and once you're able to heal that then like then it kind of fix it. So it's like thinking about things from a different perspective I think is is important because that's where the starkness I feel like for me comes is that when you're just looking at this thing the same way, the same perspective, you just beat your head over and over, like why can't I change it or why can't I heal this or why can't I do this or be better? Whatever it may be, you're just constantly like going to the same angle, like take a step to the side and then you're able to see better. So yeah, easier said than done obviously, but I just like I guess a couple of things for me to that that's been helpful, No, so good and you you reminded me of a couple of things that have been really helpful in the business world. One of them is don't just think through your problems, talk through your problems and we have different personalities listening, like introverts, extroverts all that. But this applies to everyone because one of the things I've learned is um if you look at a brain scan, when you're like thinking through a problem, your brain will light up a little bit, especially in the prefrontal cortex, you're like forehead section for everyone listening, which is where your executive functions are like your problem solving, you know critical thinking, all that when you think of your problems that it lights up a little bit, but not much, but when you actually talk through your problems, that area of your brain is like on fire if you look at a brain scan, which means you're gonna way better be able to overcome those problems. So when I feel stuck or when you know in the business world like team members that I'm working with, when they feel stuck that the first part, like you said it is like talking about it and it seems kind of silly for some people, but it's like no, that actually really helps and even on the level of your brain it can kind of kick you into a higher gear that you didn't even know was there and help you to like solve these problems. That's one thing and then the second thing is that, that I've learned is doing like really small things to move forward. So it's like yeah, you're not going to be able to maybe, you know, if you're just getting in shape so spend two hours in the gym doing all these like complex weight movements, but you can go for a walk, you know, you can, you can maybe go swim if you like that or go for a bike ride, like something really small, you can start moving forward. I found that to be really helpful and then on the belief factor you mentioned this a little bit. One of things that has been helpful for me to is just learning that what we believe about ourselves actually like dictates our actions because in a way we, we tend in life to act in a way that aligns with our beliefs or or another way to say it is, confirms our beliefs, it's kind of weird to think about, but you know, if you believe that you're like this worthless, you know, out of shape fat person and you're always going to be that way, what's the likelihood that you're going to act like someone who is disciplined and fit it, It's really low. But if you start to change, like you said that perspective, so the perspective you start to change, like what you believe about yourself, seeing that No, maybe I am that way right now or I feel that way, but I can change that, I can become someone different, that that can be what it takes, like having that growth mindset I think is what we're getting at, there is just really, really big, like you can change, you can grow, you're not just stuck in the way that you are now, so so much good stuff, there was anything to add there before I move on, just on the last part, I think that that was my experience, I would just describe it as like fake it till you make it almost like and that was my experience in college, like I just, I wasn't super confident, I was very insecure which people wouldn't have thought that like I had already been working out for a while, so I was pretty, I was in pretty good shape and so people thought I was kind of confident, but I wasn't and I remember my girlfriend in college just telling me like just fake it till you make it, nobody's gonna question if you act confident and so it's kind of like what you said and it really did, it transformed my whole mindset, like when I just started to believe again this is who I am and this is what I'm about, it really began to change my actions um so I think it's it's really beautiful and a lot of the people that I work with whether that's in fitness or even just like mentally I do, like a lot of like life coaching type stuff. A lot of the people who are stuck. It's exactly we mentioned, it's just like those repeated inner dialogues of like, I can't do this, why would I be able to do that? I've never been able to do that. I'm always going to be like this and a lot of times yeah, if you continue to tell yourself that you're gonna, you know, you're going to speak that and it's gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna see it happen. Um so yeah, I think there's something to it about just kind of faking it till you make it there you go, no love it. And uh one of the things, if it's okay, I want to brag on you for a second, like the way that your life is different now from what I've heard you say and how I know where you're at in life, you're now married, you're expecting a baby, which is amazing. You, you know, have grown a successful business, which is just exploding, you know, you have a house, you have a really good life. So I think it's beautiful to see how someone who comes from dysfunction like you and I do can then go on and like you've done build something really beautiful life and I'm sure there's things you're always working on want to improve, but um just a contrast for people, it is possible and I hope hearing Dakota story, everyone gives you hope that it's possible for you to appreciate that. It's been quite the journey but there is hope for sure if your parents were listening right now, what would you say to them? What would you want them to know? Mm That's a good question. Yeah. I mean I touched on it a little bit earlier. I think that was one thing when I used to start speaking more about more openly about my story was always kind of that fear of like what if my parents heard this like when they'd be so ashamed or and it's like, well it's your reality and they're very not like they know if I, if I, if they were listening, it really comes down to me. Like I mentioned seeing it from a different perspective where yeah, it's easy to kind of throw out the word dysfunctional out of abuse and yeah, it's certainly true that that's what happened. But a lot of what happened also like was there was a lot of growth and there was a lot of beautiful things that came from it. So while it was really tough, like I'm grateful for a lot of the ways that they, that they did try to be their best and and thankfully like, as I mentioned my parents, if you meet them, like incredible people, some some of the most like just interesting, complex human beings and you know, just really incredible individuals and with their own Brokenness and so I think for them, it's like understanding that you operate this way too because you've been through your own things and I think that's one thing that can be freeing if, you know, depending upon your situation of this function is like seeing it from a different perspective, like hurt people, I'm sure you may have said this before, like hurt people, hurt people people who are hurt, hurt other people. And so, you know, seeing my parents, it's like they've been hurt in ways and it's not like they just wanted, it's not like they woke up one day and they're like, man, I just can't wait to make this extremely dysfunctional family to create a really hectic situation for my kids to try to get out of this. Like nobody, nobody thinks that nobody wants that they're operating in away from their own parts. As I mentioned, their own internal parts and their own wounds and they're acting in ways that are trying to help protect themselves. So it's like, if I were to tell my parents, it's like, I recognize you did the best you could was there ways you could do better. Absolutely. And there's ways that, you know, my kids will say the same about myself, but not only that, but like as I mentioned, there's always room for healing and growth and the fact that there's wounds doesn't mean that it was just all bad and I think sometimes when I talk to my mom, she, she thinks that I'm like, I'm just so sad that like all your whole childhood, you just think of it as like bad and you're just sad and I don't, I really don't like there was a lot of beautiful memories and a lot of beautiful experiences and I'm grateful for the challenges that I was faced with that I was able to kind of rise up to the occasion through, you know, other people healing and talking through it and and all that type of stuff to really become who I am today. So you know, I'm grateful, I'm grateful that they've done the best they could and that they were there and the ways that they were and you know, I still look up to them both in incredible ways. I just texted my mom the other day like she's the strongest person I know and it's so true. So yeah, there's, there's still a lot of gratitude there despite the hurt and that's, you know, that's come from a lot of years of, of healing. There's still a lot of hurt and anger there, but but you can start to see it from a different perspective when you have kind of more empathy, good stuff man, thanks for sharing that I want to shift to fitness to your business. So you are a coach, a fitness coach and nutrition coach and we'll get into kind of exactly what you offer because I want to make sure that people listening who, who need the help, who want to help can reach out to and work with you. But I'm curious starting out like what sort of transformations have you helped people achieve? Oh man. Every type you can imagine from you're a guy who's like £400 and wants to lose weight to a drug addict who feels like they have no control over their life to your stay at home mom who's like, I just want to look better and feel more confident in my close to your like ceo executive type people who are like, I'm firing on all my soldiers in this capacity, but I feel like I'm failing in this capacity. So really like every type, you can imagine people with autoimmune disorders who have, you know, rheumatoid arthritis, who have, who haven't been able to open a jar of pickles because their hands are so sore and helping them to live a life of freedom to act. You know, athletes to um are functioning well and really good at what they do but want to be better. So really like every type of individual, I would say for the most part it's pretty typical like life transformation weight loss type stuff because yeah, I work with mostly americans and a lot of, a lot of americans aren't in the shape that they want to be. Um I work with people all over the world though, which is interesting the different cultural aspects, but yeah, pretty much every type of, of transformation. But I would say the best part about what I do in my most favorite part and the most impactful part is those internal transformations. And I would say I've worked with over 700 people now and I've never had one where it's just been simply like, you know, I just want to get better shape. People might start that way and might start like, hey, I want to get a six pack or I wanna look better in my bathing suit, but it never ends that way. There's always something along the way where it's like, wow, I feel so much more transformed in X. Y or Z. And and that's, you know, we'll get two more like that, that body spirit, the body soul component, the relationship of them. You can't really impact one without the other. So you can, you can try to just get healthier and you can and you can try to leave it at that. But at least for me, in my experience and journey with people, it's always about something more and those that internal freedom, the internal joy, the internal confidence, rewriting that internal dialogue. That's the transformation that I love to see. And it's so cool to see how it goes beyond just the fitness area, how it impacts different parts of their lives. And it makes sense because you know, if you imagine on the flip side when one part of your life starts to break down almost like if you were to have a flat tire, the rest of your car isn't going to drive the way it should. And so if you get that part of your life together, it makes sense that it would transfer to the other parts of your life too. So good. I wanna, I wanna kind of rapid fire some fitness class to you that I know a lot of people think about wonder and if it's okay, you can answer them as quickly as long as you want. Um how does that sound? Yeah, sounds good to me, awesome. So water is obviously a really important part of fitness. How much water do you advise that people drink every day? Yeah, that's a good question. I mean in general, I think the Mayo clinic says like for men around a gallon for women, like three quarter gallon, I would say if you're shooting anywhere between like a half gallon, two gallon. So if you're looking at like ounces, you know, shooting for like, let's say 7200 and 20 ounces. Like that's a really good range to shoot for. I will say that most people the vast majority way under drink and if you want just like one way that you can really just like make yourself feel better, drink more water Sounds so simple. You've heard your whole life. I promise you try it for like the next week, try to get a half gallon or a gallon in every single day and you will feel completely different. I would recommend in terms of like how to get more water. Like are there any tips or tricks you've learned of like maybe having a huge water bottle and carried around with you or something like that because I know a lot of times people can just be like so busy so I didn't get up to get water any tips on that. Yeah, for me, when I tell my clients is like, I mean I always carry a big water bottle with me anyways, but obviously having it with you is important, but the best way to stay ahead is just to get ahead. So in the morning this is another little tip. Obviously most people go to coffee first thing, our body is made of coffee, our body is made of primarily water. So if you want like the fastest way to wake up, like right when you wake up, just drink like a couple of big glasses of water, your body will appreciate it and it will tell you that it appreciates it. So that's for me is like the easiest way to stay ahead is just like get a bunch in the morning. So like I used to drink a half gallon in the morning. Like when I'm just like stretching, praying, I'll drink a half gallon and then the rest of the day, it's like easier to kind of keep up, get a big water bottle and then just like, usually it'll be like every meal, just try to get, you know, 30 ounces or 20 or 30 ounces. It seems like a lot when you get in the habit, it'll be easier. And then like over the course of, you know, your day, 34 meals um you're getting closer than in the morning at night, if you work out, get more water. So yeah, just a little easy way to try to get ahead, but it will it will totally make a difference. Yes, you will have to pay a lot more so you have to navigate that, but it's a big way to just increase quality of life, awesome. So helpful. Yeah, I know exercise and nutrition are both obviously important, getting in shape, but is one, would you say more important than the other that you need to prioritize or do they just go hand in hand? Oh no, 100% nutrition is going to be much more important. Exercise certainly is important when you're looking at different transformations, like again, if you're looking at fat loss, you can lose fat with just nutrition, it's a lot harder to do that with just exercise. You can, if your nutrition is not complimentary to your exercise doesn't matter what you do, it's not gonna happen and when it comes to gaining muscle, obviously you're gonna have to work out, you can't just like eat your way to gaining muscle. But if you just like to use an analogy, I mean you're looking at the car like nutrition is gonna be like the gasoline, that's gonna be the thing that makes it run the engine, the gasoline, the workout is like going to a body shop and like putting tints on your window, like getting better tired and rims like kind of, you know, spiffing up your car a bit, making modifications. That's like more of the exercise, but the nutrition, like you got to have that to make it run well, so that's definitely the most important. Okay, and how about sleep? I didn't plan to really talk about this much, but I'm just curious if there's any quick tips there, Like how much did you get in any best practices? Yeah. Well, just to mention like, everybody knows again, sleep is important and I can't stress enough, like how important. Um if you just like look at some of the research, people who get like five hours or less of sleep, like typical B. M. I. For people's bodies are gonna be way more dramatic as far as like the obese category than people who get 78 hours, the stress that it causes in your body and the way that that it manipulates your hormones, particularly cortisol almost make it impossible to lose weight. So you can have your nutrition, you can have your exercise, you can have everything, like in check if your sleep is out of whack. It can totally undermine everything that you're doing. So how do you read recommend prioritizing that obviously nowadays is pretty big topic with like blue light with people's phones, Like trying to minimize the amount of blue light you're getting like an hour before bed is gonna really help your body to get into deeper m cycles and deeper sleep. And then, yeah, just like trying to prioritize to make sure you're getting a solid amount, but super, super important sleep. It's like the only time really that our body has to do so much of like the maintenance and healing. It just doesn't happen when we're awake. Like it's even like our brain the way that our body kind of like heels and just like does maintenance on our brain like it. And that's why if you're like lacking sleep like in the seals when they have hell week and they don't sleep, like you start hallucinating like you just will not work right now. Is there a particular like our count like six hours? I mean 7 to 8 is still gonna be the typical recommended. You know, different people. It's gonna work differently. Our bodies can, they can be trained differently so you can kind of train your body to work off less. But I would say strive for at least seven where possible. Like having a bunch of kids may be tough. But yeah, ideal. Yeah, no, I get that a good thing to shoot for and uh let's say someone is, you know, super super busy, like maybe a single mom who has two jobs and kids and all that. If they have very little time to work out what can they do? Yeah, it's a great question. I get asked a lot. There certainly is situations like you mentioned where it's like they literally don't have time. The first thing I'll mention is that usually people have more time than they think they're just not making time. I hear it all the time. Hey, I don't have time. It's like, okay, let's look at a detailed breakdown of your schedule and like let's break it out hour by hour, minute by minute. It's like, oh, there actually is time, like here's some waste of time, here's some waste of time here a couple little early or whatever maybe. So usually we can make time, but if not like kind of like you mentioned little things that you can do going for walks, you know, parking further away from the store, so you're having to walk more, taking the stairs instead of the elevator, drinking more water. Little things that you can do just to keep your kind of like what we would call just like your daily activity rate higher so that, you know, standing at your desk, I work from standing desk, things like that, even that expends energy, So little things like that, but as I mentioned, like most people, even like 2-3 days a week could manage to get 30 minutes in. Um and you can certainly get some really good exercising within like 30 minutes to three days a week. So I would say if you're not able to get 30 minutes to two days a week, like either you do have like the most insane life I've ever heard of, or maybe we just need to kind of look at your schedule and see how we can work a couple of things around because it might take some sacrifice. But like I have parents that I work with who have five kids. I actually do have a mom who works two jobs and has kids and she's killing it. And so yeah, take some time. Maybe you have to invest into a babysitter here and there, I can promise you like the dividends that you'll get back from, those little sacrifices are gonna be worth it because you can't give what you don't have and if you're not taking care of yourself, you're just not gonna be able to give as much. So that's like the main theme is like this self mastery, taking time for yourself is going to lead to a better self. Yeah. And even financially, I've seen it where it's like you, you know, if if you get in better shape, like you can perform better at your job, sort of business, you can be more confident. Like it's insane how, you know those sacrifices that we make like for example, like hiring a coach like you, it's like, I don't know if I could afford that, but people normally just focus on the cost but I don't think well what could come of this and you can get 10 times as much as you're spending or more if you just put in the money put in the time. Absolutely No, I totally agree. How about motivation and discipline? Like obviously motivation is not gonna last. So you need discipline. Any tips or tricks there. Yeah, I wish there was good tips and tricks. I will say if there was a tip or trick, the thing that I found most successful for people and it's going to depend on your temperament but make it about more than just you make it something bigger, Get other people involved. I've had clients that I'll encourage and I'll do this myself like, but especially clients that I have to work out early in the morning, Sometimes it's just hard to get up and so I'll have clients like, alright, you know, people will write books and dedication for other people. People run marathons for their nose cancer. People dedicate movies. Let's dedicate your workout. So text somebody the night before and tell like texture on who you haven't talked to in a while who you know might be just kind of feeling lonely and be like, hey just checking in, see how you're doing it while it's you know like tomorrow morning five a.m. I'm gonna wake up and I'm gonna work out and I'm dedicating it for you. You can make it a prayer, you can just make it a dedication intention, but you make it a lot more than yourself. You're much more willing to show up when somebody else is on the line than when your own like your own egos on the line. It's much easier to show up at the gym if you know somebody's gonna be there waiting for you so you can get somebody to kind of get involved in this. Um, and it's a win win because you're helping them as well. So getting other people involved I've seen is pretty successful for the discipline factor and and just making it about more than more than just yourself. Yeah. It's really cool to see clients who will pull it in and it really kind of creates can create a cool community parents like setting examples for their kids and their kids starting to hold them accountable like their kids will know my plan and so they'll know what their parents should be doing and they're like, I wasn't gonna work out and then my kid was like wait mom, aren't you working out and so yeah, just having somebody to help keep you accountable but not in like a checking way like, hey are you doing the right thing? If not your failure. No, like in an encouragement way of like I'm gonna do this for you and I'm gonna dedicate this for you and you know, I hope that I have the strength to do this to get through this so that you have the strength to get through whatever you're going through a little things like that. So yeah, discipline is always going to be the big thing, motivation certainly doesn't last. And I declined last week asked me that, you know, Dakota, how do you keep going? You been doing this for 10 years? How do you keep going every single day? For me? It's just not even a question anymore. It's like, it's just a well, do you have to ask like, do you have to ask yourself, am I going to go to work tomorrow? Like usually not unless you have some time off, like well how do you keep showing up to work if you don't want to go, if you, if you don't love your job? Well I go because I need to make money, but what does money do? It provides a better quality of life? Okay, well that's the same thing for me. So I need to invest in my health because I want a certain quality of life. You don't have to work, You could just not go to work tomorrow if you want, but yet you still go every single day even though you don't necessarily like it because you want a quality of life. So for me it's the same thing I don't, it's not even a question of like am I gonna eat healthier workout? Like of course I am because I want a certain quality of life and I need to do that in order to achieve that quality of life. So for me, the discipline of it is about more like it started off certainly is like trying to get attention and wanting, you know, coping with my own issues, whatever. Um it's turned into a lot more of like I wanna build virtue. I want to set an example. I can do hard things. I love to do hard things like I feel good doing hard things. Nobody's ever felt better sitting on the couch going instagram for an hour. Like you might think it's gonna be relaxing, but it's not, but I've never had somebody who's regretted going to the gym to make themselves better. So so good man. Love it. And what's one thing that someone listening right now can do to either begin their journey down the fitness and health path or maybe go further than they are right now. What's one thing that they can do today? Well if I had to give like the best like the cream of the crop advice, it's gonna be the same thing as I said earlier, reach out to somebody who can help you with it. Having having a coach or a therapist or whatever, having a coach isn't for people who don't know what they're doing. It's for people who want to be the best at what they're doing. Michael Jordan's had a basketball coach until he retired. Why not? Because he wasn't professional basketball, He's the best player of all time because he wanted to be the best because he wanted to get better and better. So yeah, obviously having a coach in some respect is if you don't know what you're doing, but it's simply for wanting to the best. So one thing you could do would be to reach out to somebody, is there is there one person that you've seen consistently just like they're always posting their workout? So they, they seem like they're just such a dedicated individual. Ask them like ask them some advice, hey, how do you get into your fitness journey? Do you have any advice for me what I can do today or you know, hey, can you just like take me for a workout sometime and kind of show me stuff. It's, it's good to get advice from people. But other than that, like one thing yeah, you could do, I would say is like for the nutrition side, start avoiding like processed foods. If it comes in like a package bag, you know, you want to avoid it in the grocery store that's kind of easy. Like stay on the perimeters, don't go into the aisles. It's kind of a general thumb like they have the vegetables, the meats, that, the eggs, like all that kind of stuff on the outside. All the inside stuff is like the cheez, its Oreos, the Doritos, that kind of stuff. So avoiding, you know, processed packaged foods and then again, just starting simple like, okay, tomorrow morning, I'm gonna get up a little bit earlier. I'm gonna walk for 20 or 30 minutes outside or inside. I'm gonna listen to a podcast. Um, whatever it may be just something that is going to be a little step towards progress. So yeah, just don't be hard on yourself. But I would say, you know, sticking to whole foods, drinking more water and then trying to have at least one piece of activity per day for like 20-30 minutes. Really good. And just in closing out this session, I'm curious what's your advice to people who maybe feel hopeless about their body? Like they want to take care of themselves, but they never work out or perhaps they're injured or disabled. What would encourage when you give to those who feel hopeless? Yeah, it's, it's, it's the same advice I give to people with dysfunction. Dysfunctional families who feel hopeless about it is that there's absolutely hope like you're never too old. I, I literally am just starting with the client. I'm writing this program now. He's 73. Um, I've started with people in their 50s who have like never worked out before. It is never too late to change our bodies are extremely resilient and extremely complex, amazing creations. It doesn't matter if you've been overweight your whole life, it doesn't matter if you've had an eating disorder your whole life or whatever it may be. It's never too late to kind of change it around your body will adapt. And so I just don't give up a lot of people, especially in the weight loss world, you know, they've tried everything. They feel like, you know, I've tried every single diet after every year, I try this New Year's or whatever may be, and I just always fail, I'm such a failure. So it's like, you don't even want to try anymore because you just feel like you're gonna fail again. Well, all it takes is one time to be success. It doesn't matter if you failed 156 times. All it takes is that one new time to be successful. So I would say, I don't care if you fail for the rest of your life, at least you're not going to be, you know, stuck with people who never tried, at least you're gonna be somebody who's trying to try. But I can promise you, if you keep trying, you're gonna end up succeeding, especially if you get the right people in your corner to to support you. So yeah, find those people find somebody who's gonna be able to support and encourage you and who's gonna believe in you because sometimes, yeah, you don't have that belief in yourself, somebody else might and they can kind of help, you know, kick it in gear when you need it. Great advice man, thanks so much for spending the time and for giving us all this advice if people want to follow you, where can they do that? And what products with services do you offer? Yeah, absolutely. So my business is called Dakota Lane Fitness. Um, so the website is just Dakota Lane fitness dot com Ela and it's like the street and yeah, I do, I do all customized fitness nutrition coaching. So basically I build personalized exercise programs and customized nutrition programs for people all over the world and then I walk with people as they implement them, I teach them how to implement it, give them accountability coaching, help them to troubleshoot the issues and achieve whatever goals are looking for. So yeah, website like I said, Dakota Lane Fitness dot com instagram is just Dakota Lane Fitness, all one word, facebook, Dakota Lane Fitness. So yeah, pretty much Dakota Lane Fitness all around. And uh yeah, I'm always happy if people ever have questions, even if you don't want to use my services or my coaching, I'm an open online, any time you can email me decode Elaine fitness at gmail dot com, ask any questions, finishing questions, nutrition questions, life questions, whatever. Maybe I'm an open line, happy to provide any advice that I can, thanks so much. That's super generous man and your business is blowing up. I just want to give a plug Dakota has like, you know what, what 20 something countries, people, seven continents pretty wild, wow. And you've worked with hundreds of people you're certified physical or I'm sorry, physical, personal trainer, nutrition coach, like all that stuff you have the credentials and you've just been able to like really, really help people transform their bodies, anything you would add in terms of that. Um, yeah, I mean, like I said for me earlier, like it is of course about body transformations. People come to me because they want to get in shape. What they end up finding is like deep down what we're really asking is, hey, can you help me be happy? That's what we're all searching for is like I want to be happy and people come to me because they think that getting shape is gonna make them happy in some ways. It definitely will, but there's a lot more than just happiness involved. Our bodies are going to pass away. So yeah, well it's great to take care of it and to make it look really good. We know that it's not going to go with us, we can't take it with us. So it is something more and for me it's, it's really about, you know, giving the honor to my body, the gift that I've been given and knowing that the relationship between your body and your soul as you may with a flat tire, like if one thing isn't working right, the rest of you isn't gonna be working right. So um, yeah, just taking care of yourself. You feel so much better. Like I can't, I can't tell you how many people that I work with who are just so used to living a quality of life of a 1990 broken on Honda Civic. And they don't realize that their quality of life could be a 2022 range rover and they don't realize that cars can work that well because they've been so you working the way it is, you know, being tired having aches and pains lethargic, no motivation. Just worn down. Like that is not normal. That's not how life has to be. Like there is such a bright, beautiful life out there and that's what I really want people to experience and that's what's been awesome to help so many people with. So yeah, I say that that's my last thing. So good. Thanks so much. And guys, if you want to check out Dakota will link to the social pages and then also to his website and it's one fun thing you could do guys is just check out the transformations he's been, he's been able to help people achieve, which you know, you'll see the physical transformation, but like he said, knowing that there's so much more going on in terms of making that person better, stronger, more virtuous, so Dakota thanks so much for spending so much time with us. Really appreciate, man, I want to give you the final word. What encouragement would you give to someone who feels really broken, who feel stuck because of their parents did or because of their broken family. Any final piece of advice, which I'm sure might echo some of the things we discussed before. Yeah, I would say just keep going. Um it's never, it's never too late. Like I said, there is such beauty to life. Life is really a miracle. The fact that we're, that we're here on this planet, like everything that had to happen for us to be here. Like the odds are stacked so far against us. So the fact that you're here already, it means like you're a champion, you already won, you got the gift of life. So in that respect, like there's so much even more beyond that. Like the beauty that life has to offer is out there. And unfortunately a lot of us were born in situations where that's not our first experience. Like I mentioned, I got to a point where I looked at life and I was like, if this is all life has to offer, I don't want to be part of it, thankfully. I started to see that there was a lot more. Um, and I hope that people can, can start to believe that if they don't and if they can see that maybe I can't see it now, Maybe I don't even believe it, but take my word for it, that it's out there and you keep searching for it, you're gonna find it. So reach out to people who you respect, who are living a life that you want to live. Like, you know, reach out to people who you admire and are living a life that, that looks beautiful. Um, asking for advice, open up to people um, and just be willing to be surprised that life could have a lot more to offer than you even realized. I hope that conversation was helpful and it was for me and wherever you're at with health and fitness, my challenge for you is this what's one thing that you can do this week to grow and improve and then do it, don't overthink it. Just do it. Just pick one thing that you can do this week to grow and improve when it comes to your physical health. And if you'd like to consider working with Dakota, I definitely recommend it. Head to his website at Dakota Land fitness dot com. Or just click on the link in the show notes And as Dakota said, one tactic to hell is really finding someone who can guide you, like a counselor or a coach. But so often it can be really difficult and time consuming to find someone like that. If you've done this search, you know how time consuming it can be now thankfully it restored. We're building a network of counselors, coaches and spiritual directors that we trust and recommend. And by using our network, it's just going to save you lots of time and effort in searching for that counselor that coach or that spiritual director and then you also find a competent professional that we've vetted, that we trust that we recommend. And so to find one, it's really simple. Just go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching again, restored ministry dot com slash coaching. Just felt the quick form on that page takes less than a minute and then we'll connect you with the counselor coach or spiritual director. When we have one for you again, go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching or just click on the link in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, make sure to share this podcast with them and always remember you're not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

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#088: How to Respond to Your Pain in a Heroic Way | William Scheremet

When William was in high school, his home was riddled with emotional pain and conflict. Eventually, his parents got divorced. That led to struggles in his relationships, especially with handling conflict and breaking up prematurely because he didn’t want to get hurt. 

When William was in high school, his home was riddled with emotional pain and conflict. Eventually, his parents got divorced. That led to struggles in his relationships, especially with handling conflict and breaking up prematurely because he didn’t want to get hurt. 

But the pain didn’t end there. After suffering from neglect and severe bullying, William was involved in a horrible accident that left him severely injured. In this episode, he shares what happened and how his pain now has purpose. He offers advice to anyone suffering too.


Visit William’s website or YouTube channel

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

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#087: A Special Operations Tactic to Stay Calm and Function under Stress | Tyler Morris

If there was a technique used by Special Operators (Navy SEALs, Rangers, Special Forces, etc), firefighters, paramedics, and high performing athletes to stay calm during stressful situations, think clearly, make the right decisions, and avoid overwhelm, would you want to know it? 

If there was a technique used by Special Operators (Navy SEALs, Rangers, Special Forces, etc), firefighters, paramedics, and high performing athletes to stay calm during stressful situations, think clearly, make the right decisions, and avoid overwhelm, would you want to know it? 

That’s what you’re going to learn in this episode from a firefighter and paramedic.

Find a counselor, coach, or spiritual director

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Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

  • To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

  • To contact Tyler, email contact@restoredministry.com and put “Tyler” in the subject line.

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

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#086: The Best of 2022: Restored Podcast Highlights

In this episode, you'll hear six short highlight clips from the podcast in 2022.

This episode, and the podcast as a whole, will help you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents’ divorce, separation, or broken marriage, so you can feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. 

In this episode, you'll hear six short highlight clips from the podcast in 2022.

This episode, and the podcast as a whole, will help you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents’ divorce, separation, or broken marriage, so you can feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. 

If you’re new to the podcast, this is the perfect way to sample our content and learn how it will help you. If you’re a longtime listener, this is the perfect episode to share with someone you know who needs to hear it.

Thanks for listening! We do it for you.

Restored’s Website

Featured Episodes

#084: Angry at God? Why People from Broken Families Struggle Extra in Their Relationship with Him | Sr. Miriam James Heidland

#078: Ashamed of Your Past? It Doesn’t Need to Dictate Your Future | Crystalina Evert

#085: How to Build a Beautiful Marriage Despite Your Struggles as a Daughter of Divorce | Leila Miller

#063: The Antidote to Trauma | Margaret Vasquez

#082: You Deserve Better than a Broken Life and Relationships | Kailash Duraiswami

#081: What to Do If Fear Holds You Back in Life and Relationships | Dr. Rebecca Showalter, PsyD

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

 Welcome to the Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents'. Divorce, separation, or broken marriage so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 86, and to close out the year, my team and I wanted to share highlights of the Resort podcast.

And so you're about to hear six short clips from episodes published this year. And if you're new to the podcast, this is actually the perfect way to sample our content. And if you've been a dedicated listener, first off, thank you so much for listening. Uh, this is really the perfect episode to share with someone you know.

Who needs to hear it. And these episodes you're about to hear are in no particular order. My team and I enjoyed all the episodes that we published, uh, but we obviously couldn't put a clip of every episode in this particular episode. And so, uh, we had to narrow it down and we used popularity feedback and some of the episodes that just stood out to us.

And by the way, after hearing. The clip, uh, you, if you wanna listen to a particular episode in its entirety, but maybe you forgot the episode number, you can just go to the show notes to find it@restoredministry.com slash 86, or you can just click the link and the description. I'll remind you at the end as well.

Our first episode is episode 84 with Sister Miriam James Hyland. It's titled, angry at God, why People From Broken Families Struggle Extra in their Relationship with Him. And in this clip, sister Miriam talks about what makes trauma so damaging and ultimately what heals that trauma. And by the way, just a little background, she mentions part of my story when I was 11 years old, my parents separated and later divorced.

And when my mom broke the news, It really came out of the blue. My siblings and I had no idea that my parents were separating, and it completely overwhelmed me. It shattered my world, and I didn't know how to deal with it. So I just hid in the closet and I cried, and that's what she refers to in this clip.

I agree with you and I, I also think that in that same line of thought that it's. Suffering in communion, which is actually healing. I mean, imagine, just imagine in your story as a little boy when you're in the closet, if somebody in your life that you trusted would've come and sat with you there and just said, Hey, this is really hard and this is awful, and we can be honest about that.

And you know what? I'm not leaving you. I'm not leaving you. I'm going to be here for you. I'm gonna give you space for your emotions. I'm gonna let you cry. I'm gonna let you rage. I'm gonna let you feel sorrowful, and I'm not gonna leave you. I'm gonna be here with you. And I think for all of us, if we look at the deepest sorrows, part of the prob, uh, not problem, part of the heartache is that we feel so incredibly alone there.

and that's, I was listening to a a, I was sitting in on a class for trauma experts, many, like a year or so ago, many months ago. And, and there was all these trauma experts like Bessel VanDerKolk and Peter Levine, like all these people that are on the forefronts of like scientific discovery of what heals trauma biologically like in our bodies and.

They were saying that it's actually communion that heals trauma, not modalities, not even, you know, internal family systems or E M D R, like those are modalities. But they said ultimately what heals trauma is communion. And one of the therapists was saying that all of us have these wounds, that they were these primary wounds.

But she said surrounding every wound is a secondary wound. And the secondary wound is having nobody safe to tell it to, of being totally isolated. And so when we look at some of the deepest sufferings of our. Many times those are surrounded by a ring of isolation and a ring of, I'm all alone here, I have to take care of myself.

Nobody cares about me. God has forgotten me. This as good as it's gonna get. Like all those things. And those are very real places where it's like a taste of hell. It's like a taste of hell. And if that, and if that's what's true in our lives, we would do everything we could do to avoid that. And that would make sense, doesn't it?

Like who wants to sit there, but. If God is present there. If God is present there and he's bringing about something far more than I can understand, well then that that opens a little bit of light on something different.

The lesson that love intimacy, friendship. This key to healing trauma is really powerful. So basically a group of people or a person that can walk with us through the pain, through the problems is incredibly healing. But so often there's serious barriers that prevent us from having those relationships, from building those relationships, especially when it comes to our relationship with God.

And for so many of us who come from broken families, we've downright rejected God, or maybe we struggle a lot in our. With him, or maybe we've felt abandoned by him or rejected by him, or like he just doesn't care about us. And if that's you, this episode with Sister Miriam is really gonna help as we talk through those really tough topics.

Like we don't pull away, we don't shy away from those tough questions. And even if you're not Christian or you don't believe in God, uh, you're still gonna benefit a lot from episode 84. Next step is episode 78 with Lina Everett, ashamed of your past. It doesn't need to dictate Your Future. Popular speaker and author, Lina Everett shares in this clip how her parents' divorce and even her grandparents' divorce affected her.

There was a. Stuff it Growing up, the thing is, because I didn't have a father growing up, I really gravitated towards my grandfather. Hmm. And I spent a lot of time over my grandparents' house and because my mom was a single mom and she did her best, I mean, she really did. God bless her. And I had a lot of anger growing up towards my mother.

But being a mom now and being married and stepping outside of this, this situation and kind of looking in now, a lot of it makes sense, right? Yeah. Because when we see our. Acting out or getting angry or yelling, or they're going through their own dysfunction. And as a child, you almost feel like it's your own fault.

You know, or that you're just this burden on your parents because they're having to deal with you or, or you're having to go back and forth between parents. Some of you out there are experiencing that and sometimes you may have felt like a burden and at times I felt like a burden. Right? Yeah. And I never was re like, I felt like I never was affirmed in, you are valued, you are wanted, you are loved, and.

that was hard. Mm-hmm. and I didn't do well as a child in school. I hated school. I was kind of the problem child out of my sister and I, I only had a sister, so it affected me in a lot of different ways. And again, growing up with that, it really, that wound, you start learning to live out of that because that's kind of the home base of where you're living going through that trauma day in and day out.

and always wonderful. Why wasn't I enough for my dad to stay? Why didn't he love me enough? What's wrong with me? You know, why did they break up? Was it my fault? Is it, was it my problem? And these things going on. And then you slowly silence those voices and you just kind of go through the motions, cuz you get used to it, but it's really just causing that deeper wound that you're just shoving down, right?

Mm-hmm. and ignoring coping mechanism. And so I really gravitated towards my grandfather, but he ended up leaving my grandmother. when she was, I think 50, 50 something years old, and I was devastated. So I felt like I went through it all over again of my grandfather leaving and I felt abandoned again because wow, I wasn't enough for him to stay.

I wasn't enough for him to be there, and that broke my heart. And so at that point, I think that's when I really made a personal vow almost of I will never let a man. And love me because all he's gonna end up doing is destroying me. So I'm gonna be confident, strong, smart, amazing woman, and I'm gonna take care of myself and I'm gonna be prepared that if I do get married at the end of the day, I'm gonna have my own bank account, own money, my own, my own wits about me that I'm not gonna have, I'm not gonna be left behind by someone like a piece of trash.

At a 11 years old, I remember laying on the stairs crying, thinking that to. Because my grandmother had to witness how devastating it was for her and I'll, I'll never forget that. And it was so sad watching her cry and sob and, and I didn't fully understand everything cuz I was so young. But at the same time, it really had a deep effect on me.

And at that point, I, I just cut my grandfather off. I won nothing to do with him, so. Mm-hmm. , not just one man left, but two. And my grandfather, I think was even worse because I had a really. Stable relationship with him. And um, even when he did come back to try to have that relationship with me, I just completely rejected him.

I wanted nothing to do, which was hard, but I was so hurt. That's the only thing I knew how to do. And that was the other thing. I trained myself in that woundedness and brokenness just to keep people out. Don't let them in because you're just really gonna end up getting hurt so slowly. It's like you're building that wall up around yourself to protect yourself.

Like you, you keep things out, but you're also keeping so much in too. And you, I couldn't experience that real love for a very long time. It was very hard for me to accept it.

Now, thankfully, Crystal's story doesn't, and they're in that episode. She shares how she's healed, how she's grown, how she's found peace, and the wholeness that she's lunged for. But there's an important lesson in her story. Our wounds cause us to put up walls around her heart, which is completely understandable because it's a self-defense mechanism.

It keeps us safe during perhaps traumatic times in our lives, but later down the road, those defenses become a problem. They prevent us from experiencing the love that we long for. Why is that? Because authentic love isn't possible without vulner. Authentic love isn't possible without vulnerability. And so if we want to experience the love that we've always longed for, we can't push everyone away.

We have to learn to be vulnerable, which requires us to first heal and learn how to take down those defenses. And Christine offers more good advice and inspiration in episode 78. Next up is episode 85 with Layla Miller, how to Build a Beautiful Marriage Despite Your struggles as a daughter of Divorce, an author Layla Miller.

Join me to discuss how women who come from families where the parents are divorced, struggle in unique and often extra ways compared to women who come from a family where the parents are married,

right? So if, if. if you're standing on a firm foundation of your parents having been together. My parents before my father passed away, they were married for 54 years. Hmm. Lots of fights. My dad is a hot-blooded, was a hot-blooded Arab, and my mom was a stoic kind of, you know, with English background and immigrant versus Ohio girl.

A lot of differences. And there were quite a few arguments, you know, and things were very loving. and yet also very volatile at times. So there's, there's this e experience of being in kind of sometimes rocky, rocky days with your parents, and yet there was never a fear. That love ends. There was never a fear that, oh my gosh, what's gonna happen here?

I'm, I'm, I'm kind of careening off, uh, off a cliff. I was very secure. I had no, no issues when they fought, it's like, gosh, that's a bummer. You know, no child likes to see their parents fight, but I knew that divorce was off the table always, and so that security was there. That is priceless. To give that to your child is just, is absolutely priceless.

For the child of divorce, we have an, there's an analogy here in the, in the book, it's, it's like standing on an ice, an ice cap, you know, a, a floating iceberg, and you could kind of navigate that. If it's firm under, you're like, okay, I'm just standing on this. It's, it's a little rocky sometimes when a split or divorce happens, it's like, okay, the ice ice cap breaks the iceberg.

It, you know, and now you've got one foot on one side and one foot on the other, and things start to move and shift and you're really having trouble keeping your balance. And people might see that you're still standing. Okay, look, she's still standing. Look at that. She's doing great, but you're really putting everything into this and, and it is exhausting, and you're scared and you're anxious, and you're afraid you're gonna fall.

And then there might be. , your foundation might have split once, but what if your foundation has split with subsequent divorces? Then you've got, you know, four different ice pieces you're standing on trying to stay afloat st to stay upright. You know, and then some, some pieces might float off, like step grandparents that you loved, but they're gone now.

Or, you know, step-siblings and other parent, you know, stepparents that left. You are navigating so many different things, trying to just stand and it is exhausting all the time. And it can lead to just, again, depression and anxiety. And there's an idea that you're gonna use a coping mechanism that you might have used as a child in your own marriage.

So you're, you're in your marriage and things are, things are happening with your husband. Maybe there's some conflict. You don't know any better than to use these coping mechanisms that might have kept you afloat, right? Yeah. As a child of. But that don't necessarily work when you're talking to a husband, so that's a real problem.

And, and these are self-preservation measures. Things like ignoring problems or trying to minimize things or, or putting up a per a perfect facade, trying to be perfect all the time, or, or isolate cutting yourself off and being very independent. Well, those things aren't gonna work with a husband where there needs to be intimacy and there needs to be friendship and, and, uh, communication and understanding.

So there are all these different things that are happening, and yet you, you, you're, again, you're, you're someone who is, is expected to pull this off seamlessly and you might look good from the outside. It might look like everything's going well, but inside you're just a complete mess and you think that everything is, you know, falling apart and, and inside you might be falling apart.

So, Appearances are deceiving. You know, when people suddenly implode and leave their marriages, a lot of times it's because all of this just blew up and, and they just, they just couldn't maintain this balance anymore. So we have to really be aware that it's normal to have these, these wounds, but we have to give the daughters of divorce the tools.

To overcome those wounds and be able to have the stable marriage so that we can, you know, heal the generations.

Perhaps Layla just described you or described someone you know, and if so, I recommend listening to that episode, shopper's Advice for navigating those unique challenges and healing. Those wounds. And she also touches on what to do. If you're married to someone from an intact family, they might be totally unaware of what you're struggling with.

And by the way, this episode's not just for ladies, it's for men as well. You're gonna benefit a lot from, and again, that's episode 85. Next up is episode 63, the Antidote to Trauma with Margaret Vasquez. What is the antidote to trauma? You might have asked that question. Another way to say it is what is the opposite of trauma?

And Margaret, who's a retired trauma therapist with over. 15 years of experience offers the answer in this clip.

Let's see. I, I use the word antithesis because I see it as like the opposite of trauma. Hmm. Right. If like, trauma is what we are not made for, and so therefore it does damage to us on all different levels, physically, emotionally, spiritually, cognitively, relationally, you know, and the list goes on. Then if that's true of trauma, then connection is that for which we're made and it's really that by which we grow in personal integration.

Like meaning, like our personal sense of self, our really our ability to, to really feel comfortable in our own skin, which is a really big deal. And to be able to relate to others with a sense of starting with the needle on full instead of the needle on empty. Mm-hmm. . So we're really able. To relate from a sense of freedom where it's really, I can engage with you from a place of being filled up first, and so then it overflows to you rather than going into.

each interaction. Really hoping that this desperate need in me somehow gets filled up by this person. And that's just such a, a setup for crazy making, you know? So I see connection is really, uh, what we're made for Becauseso. It's what causes that, that personal integration and that. True peace and joy and freedom between people and relationships and that sense of, of growing union with God.

That clip really just only scratches the surface of the whole relationship framework, the connection framework that Margaret offers, and I definitely recommend checking it out, especially if. Stuck or maybe depleted in your relationships. A lot of good tips and advice when it comes to healing, uh, yourself and your relationships.

Again, that's episode 63. Episode 82 is our next one. It's titled, you Deserve Better Than a Broken Life in Relationships with my friend Kalo de Swami. And so often when we experience trauma, when we're wounded, we act out in ways to numb that pain. That was the story of my friend Kalo. The wounds from his broken family set him on a trajectory in life to live a life of extreme pleasure, of success, of excitement care.

In this clip,

that's the kind of interim. Because then after I graduated college, I moved to Silicon Valley and I was a software engineer, and that's when things really went out of control. Yeah. Because that's when I was starting to make a lot of money and I had much more agency in. My control over my day. Yeah.

Control over my friends. And that's where a lot of those habits and indulgence, indulgent behavior from high school was like 10 x. Yeah. And that's where I had a lot of trouble with. Same thing, a lot of drinking and partying, hard drugs, club drugs, music festivals. I mean, I did everything crazy. You can possibly imagine.

Not many people know about this, but I have tattoos all over my body. You would never believe that. I didn't know that. Yeah, you would never believe that. Yeah. If you knew me, no one could believe that. But I made tons of these irreparable mistakes. Yeah, and I, same thing just meant the, the ultimate pleasure I saw it was the company of women.

Yeah. Ultimate, I mean, That with drugs big time, I just, I had to pursue. I was compelled to pursue that compulsively. I couldn't say no. Yeah, there was, and this is what my existence was and again, professionally things were okay. They, they were great by most metrics. Not to my standard of ambition, but they were very good.

I could support myself in San Francisco, very high rent, no issue. I had a great career as a software engineer, but that fueled. crazy lifestyle. I'm telling you like the most insane experiences you can imagine in Vegas, the most, you know, partying with literally Silicon Valley billionaires. I mean, I've done that.

Yeah, I've been there in an immense pursuit of self-gratification through the pleasure of. what we feel in this world. Mm-hmm. . And that all pointed to a lack of morality. And it pointed to a wound that I had that I, I couldn't, I needed to make myself feel good or this is what I should be doing. This is what successful people do.

This is what the cool kids are doing. You know, all these things are so reverberating in my head. Yeah. And. . I know because I had friends that I grew up with in the same community who were from the same background as I did, who. Had the same professional life, so to, you know, essentially. And they didn't do those things like they could refuse.

I know people I grew up with never drank, you know, very similar family background, didn't drink, didn't do these things. Mm-hmm. . And they could live in a stable way. I could not, like, I could not live in a stable way, whatever weekend it was. It wasn't just that I had to go to the bar with the friends, it was like, no, we.

I mean, I don't even know the legality of it, but basically do a bunch of illicit drugs. Yeah. And there was a lot of stuff that I had, I was compelled to do and I think it points to the wounds of my childhood for sure. Yeah. It was the pain that I felt, the lack of stability, the lack of identity, and I thought very much, and I was, I had the agency very much.

to solve this problem through pleasure. Mm-hmm. , essentially. And that's, that's where I was when I really got to rock bottom, which was when I, I lived with someone and we were in a relationship and we, we met. in college and we would do drugs and we'd party. And she was in a very wounded state and I was in a very wounded state and we were wanted to be together.

Yeah. Forever. And, you know, we committed to each other and blah, blah, blah. And it was, it was terrible. Yeah. I mean that, that's sore and bad combination. Yeah. It was just a, a nexus of, and she's doing great now, by the way. God bless her. I'm actually very happy that she got through it as, But we would, we, we had a friendship based on partying and, and doing drugs.

And then we had a relationship based on it, and it was, it was not, uh, It was a recipe for disaster. We can put it mildly like that. And that's what, that's where I was.

Kala's story is amazing and if you listen to that episode, you'll hear how his life took a major turn. After the 2016 US Presidential election. Surprisingly, it's a really a mind blowing story with tons of great lessons and a lot of inspiration. And if you feel empty or stuck in life, perhaps you're pursuing pleasure, pursuing some way of coping, uh, to just compensate for the wounds you've endured to numb the pain that you're experiencing.

Listen to this episode. You're gonna learn a lot from it. Again, that's episode 82. The final episode is episode 80. One, what to do if fear holds you back in life and relationships with Dr. Rebecca Showalter. And if you wanna heal, if you want to grow, obviously you have to ask the question, how does healing happen?

And that's the question that psychologist Dr. Rebecca Showalter answers in this clip.

Personally, my what's, what makes the most sense for me is, Is to start with how does healing just happen in nature when the human brain doesn't have to get involved and figure it out? How does it happen? And you know, there's tons of evidence for that everywhere. The body can heal itself of physical injuries, mo a lot of physical injuries without intervention.

In fact, Usually what we have to do is get out of the body's way. You know, if there's a significant cut, we just have to make sure that that cut's protected so that it can heal. And we all know those, you know, I grew up with my brother's just a year young. One of my brothers is just a year younger and he and his best friend all throughout our, our adolescents.

Their, their legs were just constantly torn up because they, they would just re itch all these bug bites and all these scars, and they just were forever reopening these wounds, . And of course, as a teenage girl, I just found it so disgusting. I didn't wanna be anywhere near them . It's like if we had to sit next to each other in a car or something, I was just, but that's, that's a good example of we can prevent healing.

Physically, uh, we actually don't do much to make our bodies heal themselves. They it, that's really all there. If the trauma is significant enough, then we do need to intervene. You know, if, if the bone breaks to the degree that it needs to be reset, then we certainly need to, to do that. So it's not, you know, they're, we have ERs for a reason are, we can't, you know, rely on, on the body to be able to heal everything at least quickly enough, you know?

Bleed out first. So that's, so one of the things we wanna do emotionally is, is understand, okay, what do we need? How do we need to protect the natural process that the body goes through? How do we clear away the things that would get involved? And one of the things that gets in, or gets in the way of, of healing is our own defenses.

That early on we learned a system of defenses that are really crucial and helpful to survive different aspects of our childhood, whether it's at the home, whether it's at school, el, you know, anywhere else. We want to be very mindful of, of the defense structures that were necessary as children, but are no longer necessary, in fact, are impacting, impeding, hindering our, our own emotional healing.

So that's one layer of it. The other layer is, another layer is what, what does emotional healing look like? How, how do, when we remove all obstacles, are we prepared for what happens? And this is a difficult area. To heal emotionally, you have to feel, there's no way else through that. You have to do what you weren't able to do at the time.

So, as an example, if a child is, if there's a thunderstorm happening and the child in its right overhead and the booms are loud and the lightning is, is sharp, and you know, lighting up the sky, it's gonna terrify a child the healthiest way for a child to adapt to. Is to feel all that fear as it's happening with and in the presence of, in the arms of the parent or the, or the, the caregiver who can say, I know it's really scary.

It's okay that it's scary. I'm right here. and I'm gonna do everything I can to protect you. And the, the whole idea, don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. Don't cry. Don't cry. Don't be angry, don't be angry. All of that trains us that the very thing that we need to heal us is wrong, is bad. So we have to, so we really have to relearn that.

And this is where it gets tricky talk therapy is it can, it can take it, it takes a very skilled therapist, I think, and a very willing client, a, a, a client who's got a lot of motivation to, to really. Persist in retraining somebody's system to feel when they believe that such an odd, such a, a deep, you know, primary consciousness level.

They believe that feeling is not good. Is not safe. They're not actually supposed to feel. So, so there's some reworking there. And I, I'll bring in one more element to this question, which I think is important in psychology. We. Focused on healing, but we're also focused on development. And so one of the leading questions we have when going in working with a client is, how has this person advanced through their own development?

Have they advanced or is there places in ways in which their development has been stunted? Are they underdeveloped? So if you have a lot significant amount of emotional. Abuse, um, that you've been, you know, at the mercy of growing up, most likely you're embedded in a community and around people that aren't emotionally developed themselves or else they, they certainly wouldn't be allowing that environment to be as it is.

And so it's very hard to learn how to develop emotionally around other people who aren't emotionally developed. So part of healing in a way is, is actually. Growing and, and, and developing, thriving. Like for example, I broke my collarbone a few years ago and, uh, for a few months I had to, I, I was protecting it as it was, as it was healing.

And at some point the bone totally healed and, and the muscles were totally fine around it, but my shoulder were still sitting out of place because I had. All the muscles that were supposed to hold it kind of back were, had atrophied, had lost all of their development. So even though healing had taken place, I was unable to to access my potential in my shoulder until I redeveloped those muscles.

So, yeah, so, so heal the question about healing is really important, but the language of development is almost always alongside of it for us.

Again, if you feel stuck in life, I'd propose the idea that your untreated wounds are what's holding you back in. And in order to get unsuck and experience the joy, the freedom, the happiness, the love that you long for, you have to heal. And so listen to episode 81 to get more tips on healing. Again, that's episode 81.

Alrighty, that's a wrap. Again. All the episode numbers from the clips that you heard are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 86. You can just click on the link in the show notes, access those if you wanna listen to the whole episodes. Thank you so much for listening and invite you to do two things if you found this content helpful.

Go ahead and subscribe so you're notified when new episodes go live. But most importantly, if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, send this episode to them. Even now, you can say something like, Hey, I just listened to this and I thought of you. Or, Hey, I thought this might be helpful given everything you've been through in your family.

Go ahead and share this with them. I'm sure they're gonna be grateful for, and by the way, if you're new to ReSTOR, we exist to help people from broken families. To heal and build virtue so they can feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in their own lives and relationships. And the main way we do that is by producing content that makes healing simple so people actually do it, such as this podcast, books, speaking engagements, workshops, and mourn.

In addition to serving that audience, people whose parents are separated, divorced, or have a really broken marriage, we also provide content and resources for anyone that. Or lead someone from a broken family, such as a, a teacher, a therapist, coach, parent, pastor, friend, boyfriend, girlfriend, spouse relative, and so on.

And so you can access our resources@restoredministry.com. Again, restored ministry ministry singular.com to see how we can help you and the people that you love or lead. And just on a personal note, I really appreciate your support for the podcast and for our nonprofit this year. So many of you have shared the podcast with people you know, or written amazing reviews, and I really can't thank you enough from my team here at Resort.

We're just honored to serve you and we really wish you the best in this next year. And always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

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#085: How to Build a Beautiful Marriage Despite Your Struggles as a Daughter of Divorce | Leila Miller

If you’re a woman with divorced or separated parents, have you struggled a lot in your relationships? If you’re married, has marriage felt extra difficult for you? If so, you’re not alone.

If you’re a woman with divorced or separated parents, have you struggled a lot in your relationships? If you’re married, has marriage felt extra difficult for you? If so, you’re not alone. That’s actually common as our guest today shares.

In this episode, we discuss the struggles that daughters of divorce face in marriage that daughters of intact families typically never have to deal with and more: 

  • How you’re not doomed to repeat your parents’ mistakes 

  • Stories of marriages in crisis that turned things around

  • Tips for women from broken families on building a good and beautiful marriage

  • Advice for any parents in really difficult marriages

  • Women Made New, a new book on healing for women that features a chapter on marriage for daughters of divorce 

Buy Women Made New

Get Free Chapters or Buy It’s Not Your Fault

Get the Free Guide: 7 Tips to Build a Thriving & Divorce-Proof Marriage


Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

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To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you're a woman whose parents are divorced, have you struggled a lot in your relationships? If your married has marriage felt extra difficult for you? If so, you're actually not alone. That's a really common struggle as my guest today shares, and in this episode we talk about the struggles. That Daughters of Divorce facing Marriage that daughters of Intact families typically never have to deal with.

We also discuss how you're not doomed to repeat your parents' mistakes. My guest shares stories of marriages in crisis that turn things around completely. We offer tips for women from broken families in building a good and beautiful marriage that men can benefit from too. We share practical tips on how to build a virtue such as the four parts of any habit.

And parents, my guest offers advice for any of you who find yourself in a really difficult marriage. And finally, you hear about Women Made New, a new book on Healing for Women that features a chapter on Marriage for Daughters of divorce. This is a really awesome and really helpful conversation, so keep listening.

Welcome to the Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents'. Divorce, separation, or broken marriage so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 85. My guest today is Layla Miller. Layla is a Catholic writer and author whose passion is church teaching on marriage, family, human sexuality, and while pretty much all moral issues, she also loves to discuss culture, society, and politics, and generally from a conservative perspective.

She has published four books. Primal lost the now adult children of divorce speak raising Chase Catholic men. The practical advice mom to Mom made this way. How to prepare kids to face today's tough moral issues. Co-authored with Trent Horn of Catholic Answers and her latest Impossible Marriages redeemed.

They didn't end the story in the middle Lila's first blog, the Little Catholic Bubble was a hub of good conversation and reason debates, and though it's been retired after eight years, it remains online as an. Lela and her husband have 32 years live in Phoenix, where they are still raising the youngest three of their eight children, two girls and six boys, ages 31 to 12.

They currently have 12 born grandchildren and two more in utero and still can't believe what's happened to them these past three decades. Considering how it all started, that Layla says that God is so very good and merci. So if you can't tell by now, there's obviously talk about God and faith in this conversation.

If you don't believe in God. I'm so glad that you're here. I challenge you to listen with an open mind. Even if you take the God parts out, you're still gonna benefit greatly from this conversation. So without waiting any longer, here's my conversation with Layla Miller.

Layla, welcome back to the show. It's been a little while and I'm really happy to have. Thank you Joe. I'm always glad to be here with you and, uh, try to help a demographic that's not really helped very often. So here we go. Yeah, there's such a need as we've talked again and again about, and I'm excited to talk about the new book and your chapter in the new book, and I think it's really gonna be a tool, something that's really helpful, uh, for people from broken families, especially women.

From Broken families because, um, well, we'll get into the exact topic. So I'd like you to kind of tee us up there. What is the book about and your chapter in particular? Sure. So a while back, Kristalina ever asked me if I would contribute a chapter to a book that she was compiling and the book was just released and it's called Women Made New.

It's an EWTN book and what she asked me was actually very intriguing because she's had me on her show a few times to talk about just the pitfalls of being a child of divorce and the different effects in their lives. Cuz she herself is a child of divorce and we've had really good conversations just like you and I have had.

But she, she gave me a topic that was so intriguing to me and she wanted to help women because this particular book, of course, is specifically for women. Although I do think that men could also. She wanted me to sort of compare and contrast what it is like for a child of divorce, a daughter of divorce, to approach marriage or to be in a marriage, versus someone like me who was a child of an intact family, approaching marriage, living through a marriage, you know, going through the years and I thought, wow, that's a.

That's an interesting exercise. And so with the help of our mutual friendly able, who is a child of divorce herself and a contributor to, um, my book, primal Loss, she helped quite a bit because she has done a lot of research in this herself, but I was able to, We kind of discussed those particular pitfalls that a daughter of divorce has that I, for example, never had going into a marriage.

So, and, and we never think about this, right? I, I don't know. I never thought about it. I don't even know if the daughters of divorce actually think about this consciously, but I know I never did. So I got married 32 years ago. I'm from an intact family. I approached the alter with really not really any anxiety at all.

I, I knew that there would. I knew it was a lifelong commitment. First of all, I knew there would be. Problems in marriage. There always are. I knew there would be fights. I knew there would be probably, you know, tragedies along the way. And so all the whole thing, good times and bad, basically the vow, I kind of understood that.

Yeah, that's, that's what we're getting into. Never occurred to me to be concerned about the permanence of the marriage. It just never occurred to me. So you kind of go in almost relaxed, you know, if, if, if you're marrying a good guy, it's not really, uh, an anxiety producing situation. Well, I guess that's not always the case with the daughter of divorce because they are coming into a marriage with so many different wounds, having watched their parents fail essentially at, at doing marriage, that they're going in with a bit of a handicap, if you wanna put it that way.

And so I kind of took a look at all of those different wounds or different ways that that daughter of divorce might approach marriage in a way. That needs to have a spotlight just so that she is aware, like, okay, this is not typical. This is because of the wound from my parents' divorce. Yeah. So we can, we can talk about some of that, but that's basically what she wanted me to do with this chapter.

Amazing, and I'm so excited to read it, start to finish. I've, I've read a little bit of it and I'm already blown away. I think it's, it's really fascinating, like you said, to kind of compare and contrast the different experiences because they are very different and that's a, I think just the key point we want people to walk away with again, I don't think.

As a culture, we look at divorce, we look at broken families, and we say that, well, it's not a big deal because it's so common. It's in fact normal. It's seen as normal, and we're kind of expected to be resilient as children and to move on through life in our careers, in our friendships, in our re uh, romantic relationships and marriages.

Kind of unscathed, but the facts do not bear that. The facts showed, like you said, that there's a lot of struggles, some very serious consequences and negative effects that you have to deal with if you come from a broken family, typically. And one of the researchers who talked about this, which we've touched on a little bit in the past, is, A woman by the name of Dr.

Judith Wallerstein. She was at the University of California Berkeley. She studied children's divorce for 25 years, and she said that one of the main takeaways from her research is that the biggest area of your life that's affected by your parents' divorce is your own marriage. And so we're gonna get into that further, but everything you said just rings so true and it aligns with the research.

That I've seen on this topic. And before I go any further, I just wanna give a little bit of a side note if you guys wanna listen to Leanne, uh, who Lela mentioned. She, uh, came on the show in episodes five, six and seven. We did a three part series on the nine common struggles of adult children of divorce.

It was actually based on Lela's book. Primal loss. So we kind of summarize, uh, the really the most common struggles of this relationships, marriage being one of them. And so if you wanna check those out again, that's episode five, six and seven. But isn't that fascinating how the research bears, uh, that as well that this is like such a struggle for people like us who come from divorced families.

It really is. And uh, and if you think about it really makes sense. Marriage is foundational. It's, it's actually a natural right. For a child to have a married mother and father. It's a God-given, right? And then when that foundation is shattered, that is the model. What is, they call it the School of Love.

You know, the the family. So when that model is blown to bits, we can expect that going forward into relationships, there are going to be huge problems, gaps in understanding, lack of tools, lack of knowledge, and then to go into a marriage, which is. Of course, by its nature, permanent and really want it to be permanent.

I mean, again, every, every daughter of divorce goes into a marriage wanting it to be permanent. But the tools aren't there. The tools aren't there. And, and so the, the first thing I just wanna say to everyone out there is this, is this feeling of isolation or anxiety or fear or lack of trust. These lack of tools, this, all these difficulties, this is completely normal.

There's this silence on this issue where every child of divorce, but really every daughter of divorce, every bride going into a marriage thinks that they must be crazy. You know, it's just, it's unique to, to her alone, and yet it is. Not, it is quite universal in fact, and that's actually relieving to a lot of people to understand that you feel like you're alone when you're having these feelings in your marriage and feeling like you're failing so badly.

And yet it is a very normal common experience for someone whose foundation was shattered to have to deal with these issues in her marriage. Mm, no, that, that's so helpful and one of the ways that I like to think about it. , we really lack a roadmap for love and marriage. We've seen a broken model of love and marriage, and so when it's our turn, we, we feel lost.

We feel unequipped, as you said, to build a good, beautiful, thriving marriage. Uh, because again, we didn't see it ourselves. And our parents example is ingrained into us. It's programmed into us on an subconscious level, like you said. And so what I've seen too is not only do we feel lost, but they actually tend to pick up their tendencies, their virtues, or their vices.

And so if that, you know, if there were more vices when it came to the relationship and you know, for example, not handling conflict well or just being disrespectful or again, like abandoning your family like that, that example is ingrained in us so that even on a subconscious level, we might act from that without even wanting it.

We might want a really beautiful love, a really beautiful. But because of the example we've seen, unless we're very intentional about overcoming that, and of course relying on God's grace as well, um, we can go down that same path, which is really scary. And it's a fear of everyone listening who comes from a broken family.

Absolutely. Right. And so there's almost this, like you said, it's, it's almost unconscious where you just. In the back of your mind are thinking, okay, when am I gonna have to leave? Or when is he going to abandon me? And, and it's kind of this running loop that can be in the back of your mind that you're not even necessarily aware of.

Although some people are, some people do actually. I've had daughters of divorce tell me they're squirreling away money in a, in a sock drawer. For the day that they're very saintly husband. Cuz a lot of times these guys are great, but they fear that there's just gonna be a time where it's just not gonna work out.

It's just, it's just not gonna work out. And, and if you, if what you have seen as a model is that conflict leads to permanent separation, well that's all, you know, that's what you've seen. And so you have this, I guess we could call it a defective witness. So there's this fear that things that are this, this is the part that just makes me so sad as someone from an intact.

I could have arguments with my husband throughout these years. I could have even big arguments and not have the fear that divorce was gonna be thrown around as a word or that, that, that he was going to leave me or that I was going to leave him. Like, it just, it's a safe space. You can be in an argument with your husband and even not talk to him for a couple days or whatever, and not fear that the, that the whole thing is gonna fall apart.

And yet this defective witness that, that the daughters of divorce have is. A conflict makes her feel like the relationship is ending. It is a catastrophic feeling from what I understand that Oh no, it's, it's, it's over. This is a catastrophe when in fact it could be just a normal marital spat. So it's really, I mean, to think, and again, I, I, I come from it almost ashamed that I didn't realize how, how much suffering went on in, in many marriages, because to have that kind of burden and that kind of anxiety on your shoulders all the time, waiting for that other shoe to drop, so to speak, is just excruciating.

What, what a burden, who can carry that kind of burden in addition to just the normal burdens of marriage and life Anyway. Right. No, and you hit on a point That's I think just such. You hit a nerve basically for our listeners, and that is this whole idea of conflict too, in addition to marriage. Overall conflict, like you said, can really be this kind of field of landmines where you're walking through just trying to, you know, not set anything off to the point where it can become really unhealthy.

And so I'd love to get into that further with you. But really in general, I'd love for you to break down for us. The difference between the woman who comes from an intact family and the woman who comes from a divorce family, how they experienced marriage. So the question really is, you know, what have you learned about how a woman from an intact family approaches marriage differently compared to a woman from divorce?

Right? So if, if you're standing on a firm foundation of your parents having been together, my parents before my father passed away, they were married for 54 years. Lots of fights. My dad is a hot blooded, was a hot blooded Arab, and my mom was stoic, kind of, you know, with English background and immigrant versus Ohio girl.

A lot of differences. And there were quite a few arguments, you know, and things were very loving and yet also very volatile at times. So there's, there's this experience of being in kind of sometimes rocky, rocky days with your parents, and yet there was never a fear. That love ends. There was never a fear that, oh my gosh, what's gonna happen here?

I'm, I'm, I'm kind of careening off a, off a cliff. I was very secure. I had no, no issues when they fought, it's like, gosh, that's a bummer. You know, no child likes to see their parents fight, but I knew that divorce was off the table always, and so that security was there. That is priceless. To give that to your child is just, is absolutely priceless.

For the child of divorce, we have an, there's an analogy here in the, in the book, it's, it's like standing on an ice, an ice cap, you know, a floating iceberg, and you could kind of navigate that. If it's firm under, you're like, okay, I'm just standing on this. It's, it's a little rocky sometimes when a split or divorce happens, it's like, okay, the ice, ice cap breaks the iceberg, you know, breaks.

And now you've got one foot on one side and one foot on the other, and things start to move and shift and you're really having trouble keeping your balance. And people might see that you're still standing. Okay, look, she's still standing. Look at that. She's doing great, but you're really putting everything into this and, and it is.

Exhausting. And you're scared and you're anxious, and you're afraid you're gonna fall. And then there might be, your foundation might have split once, but what if your foundation has split with subsequent divorces? Then you've got, you know, four different ice pieces you're standing on trying to stay afloat is to stay upright.

You know, and then some, some pieces might float off like step grandparents that you loved, but they're gone now. Or, you know, step siblings and other parent, you know, stepparents that left. You're navigating so many different things, trying to just stand and it is exhausting all the time. And it can lead to just, again, depression and anxiety.

And there's an idea that you're gonna use a coping mechanism that you might have used as a child in your own marriage. So you're, you're in your marriage and things are, things are happening with your husband. Maybe there's some. , you don't know any better than to use these coping mechanisms that might have kept you afloat, right?

Yeah. As a child, a divorce, but that don't necessarily work when you're talking to a husband. So that's a real problem. And, and these are self-preservation measures. Things like ignoring problems or trying to minimize things or, or putting up a per a perfect facade, trying to be perfect all the time, or, or isolate cutting yourself off and being very independent.

Well, those things aren't gonna work with a husband where there needs to be intimacy and there needs to be friendship and, and, uh, communication and understanding. So there are all these different things that are happening, and yet you, you, you're, again, you're, you're someone who is, is expected to pull this off seamlessly and you might look good from the outside.

It might look like everything's going well, but inside you're just a complete mess and you think that everything is, you know, falling apart and, and inside you might be falling apart. So, Appearances are deceiving. You know, when people suddenly implode and leave their marriages, a lot of times it's because all of this just blew up and, and they just, they just couldn't maintain this balance anymore.

So we have to really be aware that it's normal to have these, these wounds, but we have to give, the daughters have divorced the tools to overcome those wounds and be able to have the stable marriage so that we can, you know, heal the generations. Amen. Yeah. Wow. No, and thank you for going into so much detail and I know, you know, so many people listening right now can resonate with so much of what you said, and I think it is important at this point.

Um, as you alluded to that there is hope and there are things that you can do to cope in healthy ways, but also heal and grow and go beyond. A lot of these wounds and I, I'd love to turn to that, if that's okay. Mm-hmm. , you know, based on what you've learned, what advice would you have for women listening right now, whose parents are divorced when it comes to navigating marriage?

Number one is to always remember that God is with you, okay? God is with you. God is your biggest cheerleader. You know, God and the saints, Mary and the saints, everyone is, is on your side. Everyone wants to defeat this, this spirit of divorce in your family and in the generations. So number one, turn to turn to God in prayer.

Always give it to him. Give it everything to him. There's a principle that I like to. Talk a lot about lately. Actually, I, I learned this from Father Riper, the famous exorcist. He said, and this is just a Catholic principle, so it's nothing he made up. The emotions must always be subordinate to our intellect and our will.

Okay, that's right. Order. And part of what we wanna do as we go into our own marriages, you know, if your child had divorce is to put everything in right order that, that's gonna heal a lot right there. So the first thing we have to know is, again, and I'll preface it by saying this, you don't have to repeat your parents' mistakes.

That that is number one, I don't care if it's a mantra, you have to say every day you're your own person. You make your own decisions, you're your own moral agent. Yes, you may have habits of reaction. That are negative, that are, are unhealthy, but you can change those habits, right? That's how we change from vice to virtue anyways, we, vice is a habit and virtue is a habit and sometimes it's tedious, but you just have to keep repeating the virtue, you know, repeating the truth till we get to a habit and then it becomes a part of us.

So, When we talk about the emotions having to be subordinate to the intellect of the will, what I, what I mean by that and what the church has always taught is everything starts in the mind. Everything is a thought. The scripture says you have to take captive your thoughts. Even sin. Sin begins with a thought.

You have to will a sin. You have to make a decision. So with your marriage and with just, just an understanding of what happened to you as a child or even as an adult, if your parents were, uh, divorced as you were. Your knowledge is that was wrong. That was an injustice to the child, to the children of that, of that marriage.

Someone sinned, right? Someone, it doesn't have to be both, but somewhere, someone sinned enough that that marriage fell apart. Mm-hmm. have that knowledge. Say, okay, that's not how it was supposed to be. It's not right order. It was an injustice. I know that's not how it has to be, and I know that God will help me in my own marriage.

So find out what the knowledge, what is marriage? Uh, you know, it's meant to be permanent. Okay. How can I get there from here? Then have the knowledge of the tools that we need, you know, decide what is it, what do we need to, to go forward here and do and do it well? Again, your number one tool is your. Your number one tool is applying your will to what you know, so that if you get a feeling of anxiety or fear, you're not gonna let that be the determining factor of what you do.

Mm-hmm. , you think and you say, Nope, I know. I know what, I know what marriage is. I know that I love my husband. I know that I'm not gonna repeat this for my children. I'm gonna put my will, I'm gonna, I'm gonna apply my will to what I know. Is God's will and then my emotion can just kind of sit there. I'll, I'll sit there with that, but I'm not going to let it be the determiner of what happens to my marriage.

Hmm. So, so those are kind of tools you have to put everything in right. Order to start to heal the disorder, if that makes sense. Yeah. No, it absolutely does. And that, that's so helpful. And what I hear you saying too, kind of underneath all this, and you mentioned it a little bit earlier in the interview, is you really have to start Yeah.

With the, the awareness and not only of the divorce being impactful on you, but also of the fact that like, hey, it's not uncommon to struggle in these ways if you come from a divorced family. And I think that's so freeing cuz what we've seen again and again from the experts we've spoken to, as well as just the stories that you've told that we've had on this podcast is awareness is that first step in healing and overcoming and in building virtue truly to, to build the beautiful marriage.

And so you truly can, and I've seen this in my own marriage and in the marriages of other children of divorce, is. You can struggle in one area, for example. Conflict has always been something really difficult for me. I, I tend to get really defensive and I think it's because on some level I feel like I'm like kind of fighting for my own survival, which is an overreaction to, you know, what, what the situation usually is.

But it's something like deeply ingrained in me that I've had to work through. And so what I've done is, you know, What's the proper way to handle conflict? Learn that, you know, learn from the experts who figured it out, learn from other really good marriages. And not to hold myself, uh, up on a pedestal by any means, but just to be kind of a Guinea pit, an example to everyone.

I've definitely grown there. I've improved, I've, I'm able to better handle conflict now to where I'm not triggered as much. I don't get as offensive. I'm able to talk things through better, uh, with my wife and even. Healthy resolution. And so I think, uh, for everyone listening right now, who maybe feel, feels overwhelmed with all of this, uh, one of those tools and, and just to give you hope that, that you can accomplish this is, you know, hand on conflict.

Well, and there's other tools as well, but I just wanna give you guys hope that, uh, you don't have to say suck where you are. You can grow, you can heal, you can build the virtues that you need in order to have a, a more beautiful marriage and. Can get to a point where you're not always on high alert.

That's one of the main things I wanted to say, because there's so many of us. I think we do feel that, like you said before, like the other shoe's about to drop, like there's a disaster around every corner. Like we're, our spouse is gonna leave us. Especially if maybe mom or dad just kind of uped and left in the middle of the night, um, we might feel like, oh gosh, that's gonna happen to me at any point.

So I think it's a, it's so helpful, the tips you're giving as well as just this idea that you. Grow, you can improve, you can become a better version of yourself. And that's beautiful because as you were discussing that, it, it's exactly how virtue works, which is it, it just, it becomes a habit. Like you, you had to rethink and redo and, and act differently.

And then really, um, it's almost tedious, but you have to keep coming back to the right way to respond. And, and like you said, you're doing better. Like it's. and that's what people, it was like being an athlete. You know, you can't just give up after the first or second day that you work out. You have to keep going and you're gonna have setbacks and, and when you have a setback, you just start again.

I mean, that's, that's the spiritual life anyway. That's, that's actually how saints are made. And, and I will say this too, like you said, you know, waiting for the other shoe to drop this, this catastrophe that may be just around the corner if, if you are married to. Someone who is from an intact family, they are probably completely unaware of what you're going through internally.

Mm. So it is really helpful, and I've noticed this just from my work with the children of divorce. It is really helpful to make sure that your spouse understands the wounds you have from your parents' divorce. It, it, it will open up their eyes and, and actually it will be a great relief to them usually because a lot of times the spouses of the children of.

If they're not from divorce themselves, they don't understand a lot of the reactions or coping mechanisms or, or fighting techniques or whatever it is that their spouse is doing in the marriage. And it, it, it could be kind of alarming. It could seem very irrational. And that's important for the spouse to know, like, oh, okay, okay.

It's not. It's that, you know, my wife is, is trying to work out the issues that she had as a child from the devastation of, of watching her parents' marriage blow up. But we never think about that cuz, you know, everybody's just supposed to be fine. We're all supposed to just know how to do marriage Well again, the child from an intact family at least knows the part about how to stay.

Hmm. And so the other person doesn't. And so that, that's where all the, the conflict comes in and the, and the unreasonable ways of, of coping. Tell that intact, you know that, that that husband or spouse of an intact marriage, what you're struggling with and why they're clueless. I could tell you we are clueless

We are, we are clueless, and, and if you have a spouse who is from divorce also, then help each other. Then you can really kind of dive into. These mutual struggles that you probably have because there's probably more of that than, than you recognize and, and then you know, that's less isolating you, you both would then have the same types of concerns or anxieties perhaps.

So, so that's helpful too. So God will give us what we need as long as we're aware. Again, like you said, be aware and then, and then speak to your spouse. Hmm. That's beautiful. One thing along those lines that has been helpful for me. Communicating what I need to. My wife and I know for a long time, people from divorced families, we, we tend to be very int.

Not always, but there's this clear trend that we tend to be like very fiercely independent, where we don't really like relying on other people. And the reason that I've come to with that is that we feel like people are just gonna let us down because we felt that by our parents who we relied on more than anyone.

And so we tend to like, kind of shy away, keep people at arms length often. And so, um, it can be really helpful. Communicate that, Hey, you know, I need this from you, I need that from you. This is really helpful for me. And it's kind of humbling to be honest, especially as a man, I feel like to, to tell your wife like, Hey, you know, this is like really helpful.

It gives me life, it helps me to feel loved. All, all those things. And so that, that's kind of something to add along to, uh, what you already said, which is such good advice. And going a little bit further. There. I think there's this need for a lot of us to make virtue really practical. So if it's okay, let's talk about that for a second.

I'd love to hear maybe. How in your life you've focused on building virtue. And one thing I wanted to offer is a great book that everyone could read called Atomic Habits. It's a secular book, but it's, uh, very good. It breaks down kind of how habits are formed and, and how you can go through, you know, replacing bad habits, vices, or, you know, starting good habits virtues.

And there's four parts to have. I've always found this really helpful, uh, in trying to build virtue in my own life personally, what I do, Lela. Every week I get a reminder on my phone to pick a new virtue for the week. And sometimes it's the same in as last week, but it's something that I want to, like, keep front and center.

And so, um, every day I'll get reminded too, like, Hey, you're working on humility this week, or selflessness. And so then I'll of course bring that into my prayer life and ask God for the grace to actually live out that virtue, but in very small ways I can start living that virtue out. And it's not something I'm advertising by any means, but it's something that I'm, I'm trying to do every single day.

And so that little system has been helpful for me, but. Reading this book, atomic Habits has been great because in the book he breaks down, uh, James Claire, the author breaks Sam the habits into four parts. He says, the first part is the cue, whatever triggers you to do a habit. The next part is the craving, right?

The thing that kind of propels you forward toward the behavior, which is the third part that the action that you're taking. And then finally there's a reward. And so a typical example is like eating, right? We all have the habit of eating. So the cue would be maybe the time of day or feeling hungry. The craving would be, oh, I want to eat food, right?

I want this food smells good. I want to eat it. The, the behavior would be cooking the food or buying the food and eating the food. And the reward would be that it tastes good, you know, gives your body the nutrients that it needs, hopefully, uh, and so on. And so what he says is, if you wanna start a good habit, What you need to do is focus on these four parts for the queue.

He said the queue has to be very obvious. The, the, the craving has to be attractive, right? You need to make it attractive to do these good things. Uh, the behavior has to be easy. Doesn't mean that every be, every virtue is gonna be super easy, but it has to be somewhat easy. At least simple. And then the reward needs to be satisfying.

And so you can kind of game these different parts and um, it's, it's really fun to play with and, and can be very effective. Like there's incredible stories of people, uh, kinda on a physical level who've just lost, you know, a hundred pounds because they've used these principles to be more active, to eat healthier and so on.

And so I'm curious in your life, and I mean go on a monologue there, but I'm curious in your life Yeah. What's been helpful for you in terms of developing virtue, building virtue? That's a great question, by the way. I like that a lot. That's really a game plan. I love that. Like it's very practical building virtue.

Well, you know, I'm, I'm 55 years old and I'm just starting to learn how to virtue . But I think, like I said, number one was really helpful. The idea that, you know, emotions are subordinate to intellect and will, that for me is really helpful to me personally because instead of, I, I heard from, I think it was Dan Burke that said, you know, saints don.

React, they respond. Mm-hmm. . So, you know, to get to the point where you're not reacting, and again, I think Father Riper said, you know, we usually, our triggers are antecedent emotions. They're whatever came before, we're just kind of programmed to react the same way we did before. And so, so we kind of have to fight against that, which is, again, what do I know first I have to go to, what do I know?

I have to stop, think, and then apply my will. So that, that has helped me quite a bit. The other thing is, In a marriage, especially focusing on myself and my own vices and my own, you know, virtues and prayer life and overcoming that, again, through, through habituation is important because until we begin to actually focus on ourselves, we can't fix.

Our vices. So the shift from looking at other people to looking at ourselves is, is huge but difficult, especially for women in a marriage cuz I don't know if you know, but many of us women, we like to fix our husbands. So when you do that, you're not looking at yourself. And uh, so for the virtue for women, it's okay, stop thinking how you can make your husband better and start thinking about how you.

Become more virtuous yourself. Yeah. And so, wow. Then it is about, like you said, it's, it's about, uh, very practical terms. And in, in my case, it's more, it has been more about finally, uh, getting into the practice of not being haphazard with a prayer life, for example. Now I do go to daily mass every single day.

Obviously it wasn't easy when you have little kids, but. I don't miss daily mass. Uh, I'm finally, it's easy, you know, it was really hard. Now it's easy. I do a daily rosary and a family rosary that, that was always very hard up until my fifties even. But now I do it and it's very easy. A daily mental prayer.

Uh, a daily novena, all these different, a holy hour a week. Those are things that. You know, I always look forward to my meals every day. I'm kind of a gluttony is kind of one of my things. But, well, if I could look forward to, okay, at this time I'm gonna be eating, uh, my eggs, you know, for breakfast or at this time, why can't I do the same thing with good things that are, you know, more spiritual, a more he, uh, developing virtue.

Like, okay, at this time I will be at mass at this time I'm going to pray my novena. At this time I'm gonna sit in front of Jesus in the blessed sacrament. And I know not all your listeners are Catholic, but for, for the. That's a really wonderful habit to be in, and those sort of things start to change you because then you're starting to think about God more than than the other person you're trying to maybe fix, and even you're putting God above yourself.

You're thinking of God and you want to please him. So it's kind of this self forgetfulness, but being in the habit of doing these things that come as a routine, maybe that's the word I'm looking for. You have to have routines, just like the monks and nuns have, have a plan of life. They actually have a rule, a rule of life.

Well, we, we, in the, we lay people out here in the world. We have to have something that's a bit of a routine that we can kind of get into the habit of these things. So it's not easy, of course it's not. No, but, but it's something that, you know, it's never too late to start. We're showing this to our children.

Like I have kids, you know, from age 31 down to 12. My earlier kids, my older kids, they didn't see us do the habit of daily rosary or family rosary. But, but now, you know, we're in the habit of that for the, for the, for the last few kids. Mm-hmm. . So again, it's not gonna happen necessarily all at once, but it's a goal and you wanna at least have those goals and try to try to fit them in.

And eventually they do become habit. That's beautiful. One of the things that's always been really encouraging to me when it comes to building virtue, cuz it can feel like you're just set back so often it's like, okay, I've been really good with, you know, controlling my temper or something and it's like, oh, then I got in this argument and kind of lost my temper.

It's like, oh, I'm set back to kind of square one. Um, one of the things that's been really helpful is. Just remembering that you can make these 1% improvements, these incremental improvements, and, but in time, if you do that consistently, you're gonna see a ton of growth in that book I mentioned Atomic Habits.

He tells the story of the British cycling team. They were like the worst cycling team in, you know, these, um, Bike races and the Olympics as well. They were just horrible. And they got a new coach. And the coach when he came in, he just focused on these 1% improvements, as he said, these really small improvements.

And they did those, um, over a few years to the point where these British cyclists were ending up finishing first, or finishing in the top five. And I think even winning a lot of gold medals. And so there's an incredible power in that. So if anyone listening, if you feel overwhelmed, feeling like, oh gosh, I have so many vices, I, so many virtues I need to build, uh, start.

Start really small, do those little things every day, the incremental improvements. And in time you're gonna look up in the middle, realize, wow, okay, I am a better person, I'm a more virtuous person. I think that's the goal, uh, for all of us. And there's so much that you said I wanna talk, talk about, but just a few kind of highlights of what I'm learning from you is, one, God's grace is essential.

And for anyone listening who doesn't know much about grace, God's grace is basically his life in us, in our souls. And one of the functions of grace in our souls is that it helps us to do good and avoid evil, right? Live up virtue, avoid vice, and going further in that one of the functions is that it strengthens our will.

So it strengthens our will. So we can choose what is good. Likely mentioned our will is always the really the main factor. In living out virtue. And so that, that was a great lesson Le And then the other thing you said about like just pausing in those moments where you wanna react and instead respond psychiatrist Victor Frankel, he is an awesome quote that I love going back to again and again.

If you've listened to this podcast for a time, you've probably heard me say this, and that is, uh, between stimulus. And response. There is a space in that. Space is our power to choose our response in our response lies our growth and our freedom. And what he's saying there basically is the stimulus, the thing that makes you feel something or wanna react a certain way.

And your response, you're more thoughtful words or actions. Um, that there's a space. And if you can lengthen that space and pause a second, then you're gonna be able to better respond in a way that really aligns with who you want to. The type of person that you want to be. And so I've always found that helpful.

And then the final thing, just to tie this all together, when it comes to marriage, one thing I've learned studying beautiful married couples and reading research about marriage is that the more virtuous the couple, the happier the marriage always. It's always the case. And so what we're talking about here for, especially for all you women listening who come from divorced families, is if you can focus on building these virtue, It's gonna help you deal with a lot of the brokenness that you carry into your marriage to the point where it might not even be a struggle one day, which is really beautiful.

I've seen that in people's marriages, and so that's why we're talking so much about virtue here and, and there's so much more we can say. But le, any final thoughts when it comes to virtue before we move on? Yeah. You know, something that Lean gave me that I included in the book was this idea that we can paint a picture in our mind's eye of what we want.

Of the, of the beautiful family that God intended for us. So, you know, you could think about being there always for your husband, uh, having your children in your home, in an intact family, your children and, and their spouses, and your grandchildren coming home for Christmas. You know, as they get older, and you can paint that picture in your mind's eye and realize this is an ordered beautiful picture.

And, and use that as a motivation, like make it happen. You know, this is my future. This is what I believe God. Has in store for us if we just follow his, his, his law and, and get those habits of virtue and just, and, and keep those vows, those sacred promises that we said before the Lord and witnesses. And there is this, this motivation to see a future very, very different from the one that your parents had.

Not full of brokenness but full of, of love and family and, and, and whole. I thought that was very beautiful. I'm like, yeah, you know, we always tell people to visualize things and why not visualize your beautiful future? When you, when you live your marriage out in a way that is different from your parents and you don't have to follow their pattern, there's nothing that says that you have to do what they did.

Hmm. I love that. That's actually been, that's been really helpful for my wife and I. We didn't pick up on that piece of advice that you said right away, but in time, just realize like, yeah, how important it's to have that vision for your marriage and for your family, and I remember, It took us a while to get to this point.

We had tried for a while and just kind of pretty much failed, fell in our face of like creating this whole vision. But in time we eventually, I remember sitting in like our living room, it was like a dark living room. We're just sitting there just talking, kind of like dreaming a little bit, like, Hey, what do we want our family?

What do we want our marriage to look like? And we went through different areas of our life, just like, you know, you're saying like Lean was saying. And that was really helpful for us. It kind of gave us something to work towards, a mountain top to climb towards, and we broke it down into different areas of our life and we're actually gonna be producing some content in the future on this as well.

It's a really simple exercise that people can go through because I love this piece of advice and so thank you for mentioning that. And again, I've benefited from that same advice and I hope everyone listening to can, you know, make use of that exercise when we're able to put that together. Hmm. Well, and keep in mind a marriage is a life's.

It is a life's work. And if you fall, this is another, you know, just practical tip, you just get up immediately. There's, uh, father Timothy Gallagher does a lot on, um, on this. He has, uh, the book called, I think it's called, it's something about spiritual discouragement, how to overcome spiritual discouragement, and he quotes a blessed or a Saint Bruno Tani, I think his name is, where his whole focus is immediately start.

It, it's just, wow. It's kind of like the mantra in his mind is just start again immediately, and that word immediately and start again, just comes back again and again. So it doesn't matter what just happened two seconds ago. Start again. Everything is new. Everything is new. That's great advice. Thank you so much.

And I want to shift gears a little bit before we finish out our interview and kind of go upstream. So obviously the source of so much of the, these struggles, so many of these struggles that we're talking about for women of divorce or daughters of divorces, Is the divorce itself? Is the dysfunction at home, everything, all the trauma that they have endured there.

And so I wanna give you a chance to speak to the parents. Mm-hmm. , perhaps parents right now who are in a really difficult marriage. What advice would you give to a parent listening who, who does find himself or herself in a really difficult marriage? Take divorce off the table. Even if there is a situation where you have to physically separate, take divorce off the table, because if you take divorce off the table, everything else opens up as a possibility.

There is something in the mind of the church, which we've kind of forgotten, but this is still the mind of the church and it is still in Canon law even. It is what Christ said is what St. Paul said. I'm gonna read you something if you don't mind, that Pope Leo the 13th. And this is in 1880. Pope Leo the 13th said, and again, these are for those hard cases, he said, when indeed matters have come to such a pitch that it seems impossible for spouses to live together any longer, then the church allows them to live apart and strives at the same time.

To soften the evils of this separation by such remedies and helps as are suited to their condition. Yet she never ceases to endeavor to bring about a reconciliation and never despairs of doing so. That's the mind of the church. So whatever you're going through, whatever you're going through, Again, this is a lifetime vow.

This is something that is going to have some people get through it very easily and it's a very happy marriage. Other people have heavy, heavy crosses, but there's no destiny to divorce. That's not destiny. You have a choice. So thankfully, most of these problems and people headed towards divorce are low conflict divorce.

Stay away from any well-meaning friends who are trying to put a wedge between you and your husband or wife, depending on which parent I'm talking to. Most of the time, priested counselors and therapists, even Catholic ones or Christian ones, aren't gonna have the tools to help you. You need to seek out people who don't believe in divorce and go from there.

You need to seek out groups of friends who will not push you to divorce or, or whisper those, you know, pretty lies in your. You are going to make the difference for the generations that come after you. If you, if you break this family, it is likely to be the lot of the next generations, and then Satan has one, not just a soul or two, but generations.

So you have a lot of power in your hands. Do everything you can to take divorce off the table. Patiently, patiently live out those vows and see what God does. He will work miracles. I have seen it again and again. I wrote a whole book on it called Impossible Marriages Redeemed. Yeah. They didn't end the story in the middle.

Don't end God's story in the middle there, there, there is help. There are people who can help. Not as many as we need, but there are more and more coming. Don't give up. Thank you so much. And one kind of side note on that, I, I wanted to ask if there are any stories you can think of from that book and possible marriages redeemed to give everyone hope that, hey, if you push through these hard times, there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Because I think so often when we're in the midst of these, Conflicts when we're in the midst of a lot of brokenness in our marriages. It can be so tempting, like you said, because of our culture, to just think like, well, divorce is the only option there. There's nothing else. So there, yeah. Any stories that you can think of that would offer hope that, hey, if you persevere through this, there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Oh gosh. There are so many there. There's so many. Off the top of my head, there was one woman who, her husband left. two different times. He divorced her two different times, civilly. Wow. Um, they had gotten back together once and divorced again. He had other, another civil wife. One of the times, each time they got back together, she, she'd have another baby.

So she ended up, I think they had seven children at the end. Well, turns out, you know, she never gave up. She never gave up even when they were living in different states, and it turns out that he had a massive conversion. Back to her, back to the faith, back to the family. And they spent the last 20 years, she's now in her seventies.

In fact, her dear, dear husband just passed away. I, I heard like last month, but they got back together in their fifties. Their children are thriving. Every one of their seven children is in a devoutly Catholic marriage. Although I think when they lost to, uh, ALS one of their sons. But he was just a wonderful human being.

Also, she, uh, and her husband lived the last 20 years of their marriage. In absolute joy, in in, in the same type of joy they had when they got married originally. And there was forgiveness, there was redemption, and she went on to really help a lot of younger wives who. Are struggling to try to tell them and explain to them this is about prayer and God's grace and being at peace.

You made your vow and just trust God. He will bring something beautiful out of it. If you are faithful, he will be faithful as well. And we don't know what that's gonna look like. But for her it was the redemption of her marriage decades later to where they had a beautiful life and their and their children are and grandchildren are just thrive.

Wow, that's beautiful. That's so inspiring and uh, I hope everyone can pick up that book and the book Women Made New, in addition to your chapter, there's so many other chapters that, uh, women can, can learn from and men, like you said, can benefit from it as well. So thank you for writing this and I'm curious how can people buy the book and how can people follow you if they'd like to?

So the book, I believe can be bought@ewtnpublishing.com and the religious catalog. If people are familiar with EWTN religious catalog, I believe it's available there. Again, it's Lina Effort is the one who, uh, put this together and people can find me and, and my books, uh, and writings on marriage and and marriage support@laylamiller.net.

That's spelled l e i l a, Miller dot. Awesome. Thank you so much. And I do see the book on Amazon too, for everyone who, uh, wants to grab it there, which is great. But either one works wonderful. And, uh, yeah, again, thank you so much for spending time with us, for all of your wisdom and for all you're doing.

For those of us who come from divorced families who come from broken families, I, I, I can't thank you enough. And Joey, can I just say I wanna thank you for writing the book you did, which is called It's Not Your Fault, which is, I think, one of a kind. It's the only thing out there like that, which helps to, you know, children of divorce navigate through a lot of different difficult situations in their life.

So thank you for that. Of course. Um, you're doing such wonderful work, so I, I appreciate you. No, my pleasure. And I, we have a great team over here and you've been so helpful as well. And so, yeah, I can't thank you enough and um, really appreciate the, the kind words there. I want to give you the last word in closing out the interview.

Uh, what words of encouragement would you give to especially the women listening who come from, uh, divorce families, broken families? Who feel broken, who feel stuck, who are struggling in their own marriages or maybe just afraid of marriage altogether? What encouragement, what advice would you give them as a final word?

I would say you're not destined to divorce just because your parents did and because you have suffering in your life and struggles and trials. That is not the worst thing. In fact, that's a cross that's been given to you for your own sanctification, and if you understand the gift of carrying that cross, you will become a saint.

Your family will benefit. Your children will see you. Overcoming so much of your past to become someone that is renewed. It is a gift from God. Whether you understand that now or not, you will look at retrospect and you will see every struggling and every suffering you have been given is a gift from God for your sanctification and for the the blessing of your family going forward.

Ladies and men, listen. What's one thing that you can do today or this week to heal and to build virtues so that you can build the life and the marriage that you want? Even if you're in a marriage, maybe right now, that isn't the marriage that you want, how can you work towards that marriage that you want, that life that you want?

What's one thing you can do today or this week from this? That will help you accomplish that. I encourage you all to pick up the new book that Lela contributed to. Women Made New. Again, you can click on the link in the show notes to get that. If you do wanna buy the book that Lela mentioned that I wrote titled It's Not Your Fault, A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems From Your Parents' Divorce.

It's really easy to do that. Just go to ReSTOR. ministry.com/books. Again, restored ministry ministry singular.com/books. So just click on the link in the show notes and on that page, you can buy the book on Amazon. You can even get the first chapters for free. And the book itself covers 33 questions and answers in the most pressing challenges faced by teenagers and young adults from broken families, such as After my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted, inadequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me.

What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life event? How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage? And so many more questions. And the content itself is based on research, expert advice, common sense, and real life stories. And after reading, it's not your fault.

Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents' divorce or separation, how to. Build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems. They'll learn healing tactics to help them feel whole again. They'll learn how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God, and how to make important decisions about their future.

Again, if you want that book, you can go to restored ministry.com/books to buy it or to get the first chapters for free, or just click the link in the show notes again, restored ministry.com/books, or just click on the link in the show. And given the topic today, we wanted to offer a free PDF guide to you.

It's called Seven Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce Proof Marriage. And if you benefited from the tips in this episode on relationships and marriage, this content in this free guide follow suit and it even goes deeper as well. And so if you want that guide again, seven Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce Proof Marriage, you can get that@restoredministry.com.

Marriage ReSTOR ministry.com/marriage because the truth is we all desire love that lasts, but if we're honest, most of us don't know how to build it. And to make matters worse, so often we're just discouraged by the prevalence of divorce and we fear that our own marriages are gonna end that way, especially if we saw our parents' marriage.

And that way. And so in this practical guide for, for singles, for couples, we have for a Roadmap for love, and it's based on marriage research, on, on really beautiful time tested couples and Christianity's wisdom. Uh, the guide contains seven tips, as I said, on building that thriving and divorce proof marriage.

And in addition to the written guide, you're gonna get a free 60 minute talk on the same topic. And again, we've heard a lot of great feedback about this, talk about this guide as well, and. To get the guide again in the bonus talk, just go to restored ministry.com/marriage. Just enter your name and email and then we'll send you the PDF guide in the talk.

Again, restored ministry.com/marriage, or just click on the link in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

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#084: Angry at God? Why People from Broken Families Struggle Extra in Their Relationship with Him | Sr. Miriam James Heidland

Have you rejected God? Do you really struggle in your relationship with him? If you’re from a broken family and that’s true, you’re not strange. In fact, it’s really common.

Have you rejected God? Do you really struggle in your relationship with him? If you’re from a broken family and that’s true, you’re not strange. In fact, it’s really common.

Why? From a young age, our parents represent God to us. If their example wasn’t good, it leaves us with a distorted image of God. As a result, we reject him or struggle extra in our relationship with him. We discuss that and more:

  • How Sr. Miriam began drinking at age 12 and became an alcoholic as a D1 athlete

  • 3 common barriers that prevent you from healing

  • Tough questions like, “Why would God allow our families to fall apart?” and “Why doesn’t God make his love more obvious?”

Buy Sr. Miriam’s Book: Behold: A Guided Advent Journal for Prayer and Meditation

Buy Joey’s Book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce


Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you come from a broken family and you really struggle in your relationship with God, or maybe you've downright rejected God, I'm actually not surprised. In fact, it's really common for people like us. I've been there myself, and you might be asking the question, why is that? Basically from a young age, our parents represent God to us, and if their example wasn't good, we tend to think on a subconscious level.

Well, if they're like that, then God must be. Two. And it leaves us with this distorted image of God. And as a result, we reject him or we struggle extra in our relationship with him. We break all that down and more in this episode with my guests as she shares vulnerably her story, how she began drinking at 12 years old, how she struggled with alcoholism, even as a division one volleyball player, and how she really hid her addiction and her brokenness so well for so many years.

And finally, she shares how she found healing, how she found, uh, so much peace and so much growth, and was able to leave that all behind. And she answers the question too, what is healing? What is the definition of healing? It's a really important question. She also shares three common barriers that prevent you from healing.

We also discuss some common struggles in your relationship with God such. Why would God allow our families to fall apart? And why doesn't God make his love more obvious for us? And then she answers the question, how do you heal and offer some healing resources to help you do just that? I'm so thrilled for you to hear this episode with our incredible guests, so keep listening.

Welcome to the Restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation, or broken marriage, so you and feel whole. Again, I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 84. If you haven't heard my book, it's Not Your Fault. A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents'.

Divorce is available on Amazon, and the sad truth is that for a lot of teenagers and young adults, the most traumatic thing that they've endured in their lives is their parents' separation or divorce. But nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and all the problems that stem from their family's breakdown.

And without that guidance, they continue to feel alone and struggle in numerous ways, in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping, relationship struggles, and so much more. And I experienced these exact same problems. I felt alone myself without the guidance that I really needed, and it really shouldn't be this way.

It's not your fault, my book, it's an answer to that problem. It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges face by teens, young adults from broken families, such as After my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted, and adequate, and even rejected as something wrong with me.

What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life events? How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage, and so many more questions and answers? The content itself is based on research, expert advice, and real life stories. And after reading, it's not your fault.

Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma from their parents', divorce or separation, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems. They'll learn healing tactics to help them feel whole again. They'll learn how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God, and how to make important decisions about their future.

To buy the book or just get the first chapters for free, just go to restored ministry.com/books. Again, that's restored ministry ministry singular.com/books, or just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Sister Miriam James Hyland, and she's a popular speaker. She's the cohost of the Abiding Together podcast and author of the best selling book.

Loved as I Am. She's a former division one athlete who had a radical conversion and became a religious sister, and her story's been featured on E w tns, the Journey Home at Seek and Steubenville Conferences at the U S C C B convocation Relevant Radio and other outlets. And she holds a master's degree in theology from the Augustan Institute in Denver.

And she speaks regularly on the topics of conversion, authentic love, forgiveness, healing, and even sports. In fact, she actually wanted to become an espn, uh, newscaster. We talk about that a little bit in the show. She also frequently puts on retreats with Dr. Bob CHUs, who you may remember from episode 30.

And by the way, if you wanna request Sister Miam to speak at your event, just contact her@eventrequestsot.net event requests ot.net. We'll throw that in the show notes for you. Quick disclaimer. This conversation obviously includes a lot of talk about God and faith, but if you don't believe in God, I'm really glad that you're here and I really challenge you to listen with an open mind.

And even if you take the God parts out, there's still a lot for you in this episode. But at some point, I really wanna challenge you. You owe it to yourself to tackle this topic, to wrestle with maybe why you don't believe in God, and why you struggle so much in your relationship with Him. And that's exactly what this episode is meant to do.

It's not meant to be preachy, to convert you, to convince you of anything, but really just to show you like, Hey, these struggles that you have in your relationship with God, they're there for a reason. The fact that you reject God, there's a reason for that, and you really owe it to yourself to dig into that and really understand it, uh, to see is that the right path for you.

And again, we're not here to coerce you or make you go any which way, but I just, I wanna challenge you to dig into these topics because they're so important. And so just give it a shot and listen with an open mind. Let's dive into my conversation with Sister Miriam.

Sister Miriam, thank you so much for making time to be here with us today. Oh, thank you, joy. Thanks for having me with you. I'm delighted to be here. Delighted. Yeah. I'd like to just dive in and kind of go deep quickly, if that's okay. At what point in your life did you realize that you needed healing? Mm, that's a great question.

I think, I think that's an ongoing awareness. fair. I think a lot. I think a lot of times in our life we. Manage and we try to get through things and we tell ourselves it's okay. And I think when you ask most people how they're doing, which you know, in certain social settings is entirely appropriate, but if you say how you're doing, they'll say, good busy, , good busy.

And, and you know, that's fine if you say that at a cocktail party with people you don't really know. And God forbid we wouldn't be busy cuz then we wouldn't be important, right? All, all the things that go beyond, um, that, but if, if that's the answer we're giving to the Lord. And if that's the answer we're giving to people in our life who care about us the most, I think it's indicative of a place maybe where, um, fear is showing up in our life.

And I think I've had several really crystallizations of the Lord opening my heart to places where my heart has been broken. I look back at my story now and I, my heart goes out to that girl from the womb with such compassion. Such compassion, and there were just so many things I couldn't tell anybody.

And so I just kept a lot of secrets for a really long time. But I think I, I knew it underneath in my heart. I knew that something wasn't right and that my heart was broken, but I didn't know, uh, what to do about it. And it really wasn't until I, yeah, that I probably entered religious life, that I had a wonderful religious superior who first started opening those doors of, you know, what happens in our life when we've experienced trauma and, you know, what are our stories?

And I'd never had a place where I could look at my story even and have it be received. And so that was the very beginning. So that was a small opening in the door. I had a moment a few years later where I just kind of hit bottom in my life where I just looked at Jesus and I was like, I can't do this.

Like, I don't know. I don't know what to do, but I can't do this. And it was a deeper awareness of places. Things that happened to me as a little girl that'd never told anybody about, they were having a direct impact on my adult life that I had no idea. Mm-hmm. . So I think, and there's many, you know, just because we're so little and it's so wonderful, we always get to grow.

And there's every day in places in my life where I'm like, oh Lord, here's me trying to be self, you know, self sufficient or self reliant or independent, or telling myself stories that aren't true . So yeah, the Lord's like, I love you too much to let you live like that. I want you to live in the truth. So I'm gonna bring you into the light.

Beautiful. And as much as you're comfortable sharing, what were some of the wounds that you were grappling with? I have several ways where love has been ruptured in my life, even from the womb. And it's been for me, uh, an 18 year journey of healing. 18 years of very concerted intentional healing. And, but for me, I see the wounds beginning even from the womb of my mother.

Um, I was conceived out of wedlock. My biological parents were in high school. They were 17 years old and not married, and I was the fruit of their union, however that came to be. In the 1970s in the state of Texas, all adoptions were closed that I know of. And so to this day, I've never seen my parents. I don't know what they look like.

I don't know who they are. I have a piece of paper that tells me some physical characteristics. Uh, so I don't know for a fact, but I, in my own healing journey, I have a deep intuition, like a biological, like embodied intuition that at some point my mother thought of aborting me. Uh, but she didn't. And when I was born, uh, was given up for adoption and that was, that was a process that started while my mother was pregnant, but I wasn't ready.

I had some medical abnormalities. And so I was put in a foster home for three months, and then I was finally adopted by a mother and father who loved me very much and had been waiting to have a daughter for a very long time. But what was happening at that time is when I was finally adopted, that was mother number.

Already. And so you can hear already the broken attachment from the womb and where the enemy has come to start telling stories that aren't true of like, I'm not wanted, I'm a burden. Nobody cares. I'm an accent. I shouldn't be here. Um, I have to try really hard to be loved. If I don't, I'll be abandoned. I, I can just, I, I feel those in my body.

I, I know them very deeply of the stories that happened even from very young, when I was 11 years old, I was sexually abused. I didn't tell anybody. And then when I was 13 years old, I was just deeply violated by, uh, another man. And I just didn't tell anybody. And I just began a very shattering journey of a lot of promiscuity, a lot of, I began drinking at 12.

That's how my, I responded to that trauma was starting to drink at my 12th birthday. And so I, you say, I could say a crazy thing, but like really the most sorrowful thing, like I said, had you asked me at the time, if I was fine, I would've told you I was fine. And even in college, I played Division I of volleyball in college.

I wanted to work for espn. I was pursuing a career in journalism and. I just was a full blown alcoholic and I, I just, I wouldn't have told you that cause I was in college where I can get away with, you know, kind of excessive drinking in college. But I clearly had a different drinking pattern than my roommates and just the situations that would end up because of that particular way of trying to run away from my pain and, and, and cope with pain just created such sorrow in my life.

And so those were some really deep bedrocks of those major breaks of the shattering of my soul that where the enemy just would continue to pour in those lives. And these agreements that I came into that for the last, you know, over, over 18, I mean the 18 years, but when I into religious life only 24 years ago and then 18 years into that really began a journey of restoration with the Lord.

That still continues to this day, which I'm so grateful for. I get to continue to learn and grow and to allow Jesus to come and speak to my heart in deep. Wow. Beautiful. Thank you for sharing all that. And it's a lot of heavy stuff and I know a lot of our listeners can relate to a lot of what you, you went through the, the trauma you endured and mm-hmm.

one thing, there's so much to comment on, but one thing I just gathered from what you said is you were a high functioning alcoholic. Right. People looking from the outside, they would've seen you thriving, like playing D one volleyball. That's, that's a difficult thing to do. I'm curious. Yeah. Just the complexity of that, like hiding your struggles, was that a continual theme in your life of like making sure that other people didn't know that you weren't doing well?

I think that's a common theme for every single one of us. It's from the garden where, yeah, you know, Adam and Eve, their relationship is shattered and God the father comes in search of them and I think we have to be very careful assigning a tone of voice to God and he comes in search of them and they're not anywhere to be found and he knows what's happened and he comes to them and he says, where are you?

Now, where are you? But where? Where are you? And it's beautiful. Adam's response is all of our response. Adam says, I heard you in the garden. I was naked because I'm afraid. So I hid myself. And to me, when I think of Adam there, it's all of our responses. It's, I might be seen here, or I am seen here. I'm unlovable here and I have to do something about it on my.

And I think that's the, that's always, I know myself, like when I start to hide, even like to myself of things like I'm disappointed and I don't wanna admit it to myself. I, it's very interesting little things. I know myself well enough to know now that in those areas and just having a decom compassion saying, okay, we, we have to come to the truth of this.

And so, yeah. I think for people, we talk about addiction, which is a trauma response. All addictions are trauma responses, whether it's to food or to self-righteousness or anger or Instagram or porn or whatever that is. Like, it's all, they're all trauma responses. They're, there are ways of us trying to manage our pain and mm-hmm.

I think so for those of us who have, are in recovery for those things, we know them very well, but every person, just because of the nature of the fall, all of us have things that we very strategically and what with much sophistication, many times try to hide. We help those things go away and nothing just ever goes away.

Time, time does not heal all wounds. Time heals some wounds, but not all of them. The only thing that heals all wounds is authentic love. And that requires us being seen and being open and vulnerable, which is terrifying for us. Yeah, it is. And I remember when my parents separated, I was 11 and I couldn't have put it into words then, but I can now.

When my mom broke the news, I just was totally overwhelmed. It was certainly traumatic for me. I didn't know how to cope with that news. And so I remember just hiding in the closet and crying and sitting there in the closet. I felt abandoned. I felt un Monte. I felt like I just wasn't good enough. And in the months and years it felt I dealt with all sorts of pain and problems, but one of the ways that I coped was pornography was lust, and it really did numb the pain, but it made me miserable and I knew that I wanted to be happy.

But one of the trends I've seen through my whole life that goes back to the garden, like you said, is just this desire to feel wanted. Yeah. Like everything I've struggled with, Within my life in one way or another was just a, an attempt to, to be, wanted, to feel wanted. And what I hear you saying about Adam in the garden was like him basically telling God, God, you know, I noticed my imperfection, I noticed how I screwed up and I didn't wanna show myself too, cuz if I did, I was just afraid he wouldn't want me.

Mm-hmm. . And so it's, it's better we think to hide and run than it is to like show God our brokenness. Mm-hmm. . And I've certainly struggled with that over the years. Made a lot of progress as well. But, um, I think that is a common struggle for so many of us. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Oh gosh. Uh, joy, I just wanna honor, uh, I wanna honor that part of your heart.

I can feel that little boy inside and, and that just, that image of the closet crying, like, and just all the ways that the enemy surrounds with those lies of, isn't it interesting how we interpret that through our own story of like, we interpret those events through our, our worthiness or our lovability, or.

Oh gosh, that's so ugh. That's so sacred. It's so sacred. And that desire of being wanted, of being pursuit of, of having safe, consistent, unconditional love that that's deep in the heart of every person. No matter how many academic degrees you have, no matter what faith you practice, whether you don't practice any faith because we're human beings may the image like this of God, that desire for a love that never ends, a love that is consistent, that tells us the truth that is with us, that that frees us, uh, from hiding from the places we want to run away from, that that's the deepest desire of every heart.

Amen. Beautiful. No. Well, thank you. I appreciate your empathy and I couldn't agree more. I think everyone listening can resonate with everything that we're saying, especially cuz so many of our listeners come from broken families. They've been through that sort of trauma and they've, I'm sure, acted out in different ways.

And so I wanna turn our gaze toward healing. Mm-hmm. , what's helped you heal the most? Mm-hmm. . Oh gosh. There's been so many things. I, I really believe in the ways that Jesus comes to heal us. And the Lord doesn't have just one way He does that he is the way and in the heart that is his way. He has also just many ways of bringing us into wholeness and communion.

And so I know you've had Dr. Bob Schutz on your show, and, and I've been mentored by him for many, many years. I met him many years at a conference and that changed my life. And now I, I do a lot of work with him, you know, fulltime and, and so just, I'm not sure if he did this, but I just wanna just kind of give you a definition of healing because I think even when we talk about healing, all of us have these ideas and, and even when we talk about.

Like broken homes, that it's every, Humana, every human family has a degree of areas where love has been ruptured. And, you know, for a lot of us, and I think, I don't know about you, but I, you know, it's just sharing my story and hearing people's feedback of like their own stories. Cuz you hear so many, you get to hear the sacredness of other people's journeys.

Many times when people don't have like a major type B trauma, like the direct interruption of violation or the fragmentation of divorce or death, they have type A trauma, which is the lack of the good things that we needed. And, and all of us, we can honor our families, we can honor our parents and also be honest about the places that they're just people where they weren't perfect.

And so sometimes it's not the one catastrophic event. It's, it's not the porcupine quills or like the, the, the deep, you know, sword and the soul. It's the paper cut. For a lot of us, we just have a lot of little paper cuts, , and, and we say, oh, it's just a paper cut. It's not a big deal. But man, of those things burn and they sting.

And if you have several paper cuts on one finger, it is very painful. And we're like, oh, this is not such a big deal. So I just wanna bring that out for people's hearts of, if you're, if you're listening today and you're thinking, well, gosh, I didn't have, my parents didn't divorce, or I wasn't sexually abused, or I didn't, wasn't bullied at school.

Like I had a, you know, the, the saddest thing that happened to me is my dog died when I was nine. That's, we can kind of sit in that place and say, yeah, that's, that's true in your life. And it's not comparison. And looking at the places where maybe we don't have the catastrophic wound, the shotgun blast, but we have a lot of paper cuts and those are painful, you know?

And so I think to, when we talk about a definition of healing, so when you and I talk about this today, this is what I'm referring to. And here I'll give you a little definition of this, an experience of God's love that brings us into wholeness and communion. So an experience of God's love. That brings us into wholeness and communion.

We're not talking about fixing, we're not talking about managing, we're not talking about some like, movement in the church or like, it's, it's really honestly, in a sense, like nothing more than the daily life of an experience, not just a theoretical concept, but an experience of God's love that brings me into homeless within myself and communion with God and others.

And that's, that's what healing is. And so that's why healing takes place in our life every single day, because I don't know anybody alive who can't, you know, have need, who doesn't need an experience of homeless and communion every day and their life. I know I do. I need a lot. So, so that's kind of like when we talk about that, that's what we're talking about.

Not like, oh my gosh, you people over there, you guys really need to get it together. I'm fine. But that was my MO for a long time. But that's just our own self defenses mechanism. That makes so much sense, and thanks for that definition. It is trickier than you'd think to find a definition of healing. So I, I appreciate that.

And there's a lot of, I think, false ideas out there when it comes to healing. Mm-hmm. like, like you alluded to. And so that makes so much sense. And I wanna talk a little bit more about healing, but before I get to that, I'm curious, you touched on this a little bit, what's been maybe the biggest barrier to healing in your own life?

The biggest barrier to healing for me, I think the first thing that comes to my mind is fear. It's fear and probably shame. You know, all of us, I think, really believe in our hearts that we're the only person in the world that struggles with whatever, that we are struggling with. And if I, like you were saying, you know, if, if I told you this, you wouldn't want me, or if I told you this, you'd find me unlovable.

And, and let's be honest, we probably all had experiences where we revealed something very vulnerable in our heart, and the person on the other end just wasn't able to receive it. And they either gossiped about us or they told us we shouldn't feel that way, or they, they shamed me. And so we translate that into what we think God.

Experiences when he's with us and, and that's not how God is. And so I know my own journey every time the Lord brings me to you another layer of an experience with his love. It's very interesting to find that a lot of what surrounds that is fear of like, okay, Lord, if I open this part of my heart to you, are you still gonna be here for me?

Are you going to reject me or am I gonna, you know, change somehow or I'm gonna be unrecognizable? It's just interesting. And I think when we can be honest about that, I think when we can honest about our fears and, and name them, it dissipates the power of them. Because if I could say, name my fear of rejection, okay, Lord, I'm afraid you're gonna reject me here.

And then I can hold that up to light and say, is that true? Does God ever reject me? Like, does, is that an exp? You know? And so I think we can hold it up to tradition. We can hold that up to gospel, the gospels, we can hold that and we, we know that God doesn't do that. So I'm like, okay, Lord, this is a fear that I'm having and maybe I've hadn't experience of that, or I wanna reject myself here cuz I do that, but you're not going to reject me.

So I'm gonna press into this even though I'm afraid and I'm going to let you bring me into wholeness and c communion here. Beautiful. And that makes so much sense. I, I've even heard from young people who've said that that vulnerability that they've maybe shared with someone in their life sometimes can even be weaponized against them, which is a whole, whole new set of wounds.

And I'm sure there's so much we could talk about there. I am curious, in addition to kind of the barriers that you've struggled with, are there any other common barriers that you see that are preventing people, uh, from healing in addition to what you already mentioned? Yeah. You know, I really, I've just over the years noticed, I, when I speak about them, I call, I call them three common self defense mechanisms that arise when we start to go down these paths.

And I'll just throw them out to your, to you and just see what you think. So the first common self defense mechanism is, I've already dealt with this. I already dealt with this. I went to therapy for 15 years. I already dealt with that. I'm a grownup. I don't need, but just even. You can hear the tone of voice.

I've already dealt with that. It's like the fear of like, just look, I already, I'm over that. And we just, we don't quote unquote get over things. I really believe we move through them with Jesus because we move through the Pascal mystery and we move through them over and over and over again. And every time we move through them, if it's really of the Lord, he's gonna move it through.

He's gonna move through it with us, and he is going to bring us into his life, death, and resurrection. And it's gonna be a new layer of freedom and, and truth that comes. So whenever, and I see these in myself at times, I'm like, any of that, that kind of knee jerk reaction I've already dealt with that is, you can just hear the defensiveness in it.

So that's, that's one that I often hear. The second one that I often hear is, my parents did the best they could. It wasn't that bad, right? My parents did the best they could. It wasn't that bad. And we kind of talked about that already, but just to tell you today that your mom and dad with what they had, they did the best they could.

And that's true. And like we said, we can be honest and we can honor them. And honor who they are in our life and we can honor the authority they have over us and God giving us to them. And, and we can honor our mother and father, like I says in the 10 Commandments. And we can also be honest in the places where they hurt us, where they weren't perfect.

And this is not blaming them. This is not scratching up stuff and trying to like, you know, be full of a self pity. Part of this is none of that. And it's the same thing for those of us Catholics. When we go to confession, this is what we do in confession. We go to, we go meet the heart of Jesus and we say, Jesus, I'm a beloved son and beloved daughter, and here's the places that I've failed.

That's exactly what we do. We're honoring the truth of who we are. And we're also honest in the places where we have, like the Greek archery term, we've sin, we've missed the mark and, and we can hold both as true. So I think that's a common one. And then the third one that I often hear is if I open that door, I don't know what's gonna.

If I open that door, I might cry. I might start crying and never stop. I might destroy everything and rage. I might go down a black hole and never come back. And so, so I don't wanna open that door. It's like the proverbial closet in our house that we all have, that we stuff all the junk in and they're like, man, you open that thing, something's gonna come out.

And I haven't seen that in a long time. And let's just, let's just keep it there, you know? Mm-hmm. . But if, if the Lord is really inviting us, if it's Jesus, which we're always gonna follow Jesus. This is not me on my own trying to heal myself cuz I can't do that. But if it's really Jesus inviting me to a new layer of wholeness and communion, that means he's already provided the grace for whatever he's going to reveal.

So there's a saying that Jesus does not reveal anything. He doesn't also wish to heal. And we just get to go little by little. And so just, I think we, if we can kind of name some of those things of like, yeah, here, here I am. And I, and they almost kinda laugh at them like, oh gosh, I'm just scared to death.

That's just the truth. It's actually, I'm just scared to death or I don't know what to do and I know I need to do something, but I don't know what to do. I think that just kind of makes it more human versus like kind of this scary, nebulous darkness. Does that make sense? Totally. And I, I've seen those in my own life and with the young people that I work with through this ministry.

Every one of those, honestly. And one of the interesting things with this problem of coming from a family where your parents are divorced or that your family fell apart in a very obvious way, is that so often there's this idea in our culture, first off, that divorce actually isn't traumatic. Mm. Uh, it's so common.

Kids are resilient. They're not really affected by it. In fact, everyone's happier, everything's better, right? I mean, your parents are happier, so why aren't you happier? And um, it's such a lie because it truly is traumatic for the majority of people. And certainly there are like high conflict situations where something needed to happen for the safety of the spouse or the children.

Just acknowledge those from the outset here. But one thing I see left and right, and I've heard again and again in the 80 plus interviews that we've done at this point, is that so often there's this disconnect between the everyday struggles, the pain and the problems that I deal with today and the trauma from my past.

There's this disconnect and I think you can't heal until you make that connection. And so the idea that someone says, well, I already dealt with it, they might be thinking, well, I got through the legal proceedings. I got through that kind of the drama of that. But without even realizing, and I'm sure you see this a lot in your ministry too, without even realizing it, they're carrying this trauma with them.

That younger version of them who is so impacted by that trauma is still wounded, is still broken, still needs to be healed, needs to be loved. And so, so yeah. So I mean, each one of those problems I could talk about for a while, but that's one of them that I've no realized in particular, uh, doing this ministry.

Have you seen that as well? Where people just don't make those connections? Mm-hmm. . Oh my gosh, that's, that is so beautiful. What you just said, joy. That's so beautiful and just so true. I just wanna give you an name in on that. It's all true. Thanks. And I think that's part of why many times our relationships or the, the things we, you know, dive into as adults are so problematic for us is because there's all this unresolved trauma and all these unhealed places.

And then when we talk about trauma, trauma's just the Greek word for wound, you know? So all of us have wounds. All of us have places where love has, like St. Thomas Aquinas says, where love has been withheld or love has been withdrawn and. Those things until they come into wholeness with Christ over and over again, will, they'll just continue to play out in our life.

And I, I think even just going into the deep attachment areas of, of, you know, from the womb and just how we attach and how we view other people and how we view friendships and just like the science of attraction and kind of what are the patterns and relationships even that we find ourselves into with our friends or coworkers or if you're married a spouse.

Like those things are not random. Nothing in our life is random. And it's just been very eye opening to me over the years of seeing more and more kind of the blueprint of survival in my life. So it's like what has been the blueprint of survival in my life? For some of us, avoiding conflict, some of us it's, it's the anxious, preoccupied attachment.

We're like, oh my gosh, please don't leave me. I'll do whatever you want. It's, for some of us, it's just running away. It's, it, it's just interesting of how in our lives we've been trying to survive. And I, and we can, we can honor that and be honest about that. And then we can also say maybe, maybe there's a better way, maybe like Christ, because Jesus is the man fully alive.

Jesus has no self defense mechanisms. He has no guardedness. He has no armor, that he doesn't armor up for anything. He doesn't have any self righteousness like we do. He's not, he is totally vulnerable. I mean, like even the word, the Latin word for vulnerable means able to be wounded or means leading up to death.

Like you can feel it, like that's why it's so terrifying for us. But Jesus doesn't put up guards. He doesn't put up barriers. He doesn't lie to get himself out of hard situations. He doesn't try to impress people. I mean, he's so stunningly human. And if that's Jesus Christ, if he's teaching us what it means to be human joy, that means that he's got, he has to be able also simultaneously giving us the way to live.

If that's true, if that's really true, if what we believe is true, that means it's not just an idea or a kind of a moral kind of like thing to strive for. He is taking on our humanity and teaching us what it means to be human, and he's giving us the grace to do so, which means I don't have to live in my coping mechanisms, my survival skills the rest of my life.

I don't have to do that. Hmm. To me, like that's, I think we are shocked at the level of intimacy that Jesus wants to have with us. We're we're, it's so shocking. He's so shocking. Like we'd rather have God as a roommate, rather than a lover. It's like, because it's just so overwhelming for us. We say we, and I'm saying it to much to myself as I'm saying it to you.

We say we love Jesus, but then he wants to draw close to us. We're like, Ooh, not that close, Lord. You know? It's like, because we're terrified and He is te he is teaching us and not just teaching us. He's, he's embodied. He's, I can't even, it's the intimacy with which he's calling us into this truth of who we are.

We have no idea of who we are. It's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. Yeah. Wow. I love that. And one of the thing, one of the ways I think about healing too, is it's really a return to being fully human, like you said. Yep. And it really is as simple as that. And I think what happens with our wounds, with our trauma, it prevents us from being fully human, from being the man or the woman that we're created to be.

From reaching our full potential, from becoming the best version of ourselves, however you wanna talk about it. Mm-hmm. . Um, I think it all means the same. And I think that as a, something that all of us, like even now talking to you, like there's something burning in my heart. Like, yes, I want that, I want that, I want that.

You know? And I think all of us, like when we think about that, like, yeah, I want to be that person. I want to heal this brokenness. I wanna experience that wholeness and that communion that you mentioned, even if the brokenness doesn't fully go away, which I think is important to acknowledge because there's certainly wounds in our lives where, um, we can find, gain incredible ground mm-hmm.

but maybe it never totally goes away. And that's a really hard thing to wrestle with and not something we've really talked a lot about on this show. So I just kind of feel let to go there now. Um, anything you would say about, about that, those ones that maybe don't fully go away? Yeah, I, those are mysteries, aren't they?

Yeah, they're mysteries and I think that they are places where, We get to be very little cuz they're very humbling. And you know, I wonder, like, I just think of Lord of the Rings at the very end of the story when Frodo like, what? Ultimately, if I'm spoiling the end of Lord of the Rings, I'm very sorry, but Holy cow.

Okay, here we go. So what I just think option of Frodo, what, at the end of the story, what saves Frodo from himself? It's love and suffering. At the very end of the story when he decides to take the ring for himself, what saves him from himself is suffering in the form of goam and love in the form of Sam.

And had neither of those been there or one of those wouldn't have been there, he wouldn't have, he wouldn't have given up the ring like he would've succumbed to his own darkness. And I think sometimes, I know myself, like we look at the scars we have and we don't have to have pus infected, you know, wounds our whole life.

Like, but we will have, like Jesus arises from the dead with his wounds open and they're no longer sources of shame. Or, you know, they're not, they're things people have done to him, but Jesus is never ashamed of his wounds. And so we, our whole life, if this is not like, Lord, fix me so I can get rid of my pain and I can fear perfect, like this is coming, like we said, in the fullness of who we are as human beings.

And, and so we, on this side of heaven, we will always have tender places. And those are many times the places I see in my own heart every day where I just sit at the foot of the cross with Mary and I, I'm just little like, Lord, I can't, I see this part of me and I, I desire a deeper response. But right now, Lord, I just, I just need you to love me here.

I, I can't, and I, I just wonder joy, like at the end of our lives, It's gonna be those very places like the Goms in our life that we wanted to get rid of so many times that just kept plaguing us over and over and over again that we had to engage with over and over and over again. That through that mystery of suffering given in love will be the ultimately the things that save us.

I don't know. Beautiful. I remember a while ago listening to Aham by Father Meg Schmidtz and he was saying he was preaching on the gospel of the the Blind man where he comes to Jesus and he says, Lord, if you want to, you can make me whole. And Father Me was just breaking that down saying in that sentence and that question is implied that, Lord, if you don't want to, that will be done.

Like I accept that, which just like moves me so much like it, it like gives me the chills even talking about it right now. Cause it's just like such a beautiful like surrender and trust that like, Lord, I wanna be whole, I want this part of my life completely healed. Mm-hmm. . . But if you don't, for some reason that I maybe can't fully understand, but you know why mm-hmm.

it will be done. Mm-hmm. . And so one of the things I've learned from Father Mike is that sometimes God's only response to our pain of his presence. Mm. And that's something that I've tried to carry with me as well and suffering in my own life. That, you know, instead of maybe finding the perfect answer, it's more about finding like God in the midst of it.

Mm-hmm. , which to a lot of people that isn't very satisfying. I just wanna acknowledge that, cuz I know people listening right now. Maybe you don't believe in God or maybe you're really struggling in your relationship with God for one reason or another, and you might be thinking like, no, no, I, that doesn't satisfy me.

And we'll get into that in a second. But I think there's a, a beauty there to that surrender, that trust. I agree with you. And I, I also think that in that same line of thought, that it's suffering in communion, which is actually healing. I mean, imagine, just imagine in your story as a little boy when you're in the closet, if somebody in your life that you trusted would've come and sat with you there and just said, Hey, this is really hard and this is awful, and we can be honest about that.

And you know what? I'm not leaving you. I'm not leaving you. I'm going to be here for you. I'm gonna give you space for your emotions. I'm gonna let you cry. I'm gonna let you rage. I'm gonna let you feel sorrowful and I'm not gonna leave you. I'm gonna be here with you. And I think for all of us, if we look at the deepest sorrows, part of the prob not problem, part of this heartache is that we feel so incredibly alone there.

And that's, I was listening to a a, I was sitting in on a class for trauma experts, many, like a year or so ago, many months ago, and, and there was all these trauma experts like Belo, Vander Col, and Peter Levine, like all these people that are on the forefronts of like scientific discovery of what heals trauma biologically like in our bodies.

They were saying that it's actually communion that heals trauma, not modalities, not even, you know, internal family systems or emdr, like those are modalities. But they said ultimately what heals trauma is communion. And one of the therapists was saying that all of us have these wounds, they have these primary wounds.

But she said surrounding every wound is a secondary wound. And the secondary wound is having nobody safe to tell it, to being totally isolated. And so when we look at some of the deepest sufferings of our life, many times those are surrounded by a ring of isolation and a ring of, I'm all alone here. I have to take care of myself.

Nobody cares about me. God has forgotten me. This as good as it's gonna get. Like all those things. And those are very real places where it's like a taste of hell. It's like a taste of hell. And if that, and if that's what's true in our lives, we would do everything we could do to avoid that. And that would make sense, doesn't it?

Like who wants to sit there, but, but if God is present there, If God is present there and he's bringing about something far more than I can understand, well then that, that opens a little bit of light on something different. Hmm. Yeah. No, absolutely. No, I love that. And there's a trauma therapist of whom we refer people to, and one of the things that she's taught me is that what makes trauma, trauma is how it gets taken care of or not taken care of.

Mm-hmm. . So if you have someone there who's, like you said with you through the pain, who can just love you, just be there with you, not try to make it go away mm-hmm. , but just sit there in the brokenness and the pain with you. That makes like a ton of difference. Right. Huge difference. And uh, she tells a story of like, uh, this young man who tore his leg open, he was playing like football in a parking lot or something in a city and tore his leg open and his grandpa actually, uh, was like right there on the scene and was able to help him immediately bandage it up.

He had some medical experience from the military and. Just like bandage it up, cleaned out his wound and then went out for ice cream with him and he, to this day, that man says that was like one of the most beautiful and impactful experiences in my entire life. Something that was like really bad and painful and clearly broken.

Mm-hmm. became something that was really beautiful and bonding and something that, you know, formed him into the man he today, so, so I think, yeah, it is, you're right. That secondary wound of just being isolated, having no one to turn to is just so devastating. That's why I love the work that you do and why this ministry, why ReSTOR exists over whole is because there's all these young people.

Who are going through the trauma in their family, the, the dysfunction at home, their parents get separating or divorcing and no one's there for them. Yeah. And, and that's how I felt, you know, as a young man, like as a boy, I was like, there, there's just no one there, there's nothing for me. And so we, we were trying to change that, but I think it's a beautiful lesson to everyone listening to see that we need people in those moments to love us, to be vulnerable, to, um, and then hopefully too, um, in time we can become that for other people as well.

Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . That's, that's beautiful. And that's very true. That's very true. Yeah. Those are all such important aspects of Yeah. Coming into the fullness in these places. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I wanna shift to healing and, and we've been talking about it, but in particular, what would you say if someone came to you who was broken?

Like in the case of my audience who comes from a broken family, let's say they came up to you today and they said, sister, I'm really broken. I recognize that I want to heal, but I don't know how, how do I heal? I, I think first of all, I mean it really is true, like in the 12 steps, like the first of all is this first step is just admitting , admitting the places where, and I think for a lot of us, just admitting it is huge and.

Then I think allowing the Lord to kind of open some doors for us. Like what is even on our day to day level, like, what is our current distress? Like, what are, what are the places that we find are distressing? Is it depression? Is it we're chronically angry? Is it, uh, just a pervasive lie in our life that nobody cares about me?

And those, that's a place where the Holy Spirit starts. He starts there. So we don't have to scratch ourself and kind of figure out, I, I mean, I, I recommend a whole, like I says, I really believe in so many ways of how Jesus heals us. So I recommend a whole source of ways. We, uh, first and foremost is, is our interior life.

Like we have to cultivate with the Lord an interior life of kind of what's, what's going on within me, you know, what am I experiencing? And most of us live at St. Teresa. B or St. Benedict, uh, St. Teresa Benedict the Cross. Edith Stein says, most of us lived out. We live outside of the heart of our home. Like we live outside.

And then we're trying to say there's peace in my soul, but it's actually not. Cuz I'm living so far outside of myself, , and I think most of us live so far outside of ourselves. And so I think even just starting there of what's going on with me right now, like, what am I feeling? What is, what am I, what am I holding in my body?

You know, where am I holding tension? Do I have a chronic illness? For many years, I had an autoimmune disease and I also was diagnosed with clinical depression, and my body was screaming. I really believe our bodies screamed the things our hearts are afraid to whisper. And I had, you know, a lot of health problems.

And so I think kind of getting an assessment of like, what, what's the most pressing symptom and kind of what, you know, what, underneath that, what is, what is my heart and my body trying to tell me? I, so I, I highly recommend prayer. I recommend a daily discipline of prayer of if you're Catholic, the sacraments of going to confession regularly.

Uh, I mean, I, I've been in so many years of counseling and I believe in counseling. I believe in good counseling. There's, you know, EMDR and Internalists, all kinds of stuff. I really believe, and if it's true and good, I really believe in that. But there's nothing that can replace a good sacramental confession.

Gonna reconciliation of confessing not just the sin, but the roots of. What's happening in my heart of receiving the Eucharist, which is Christ, it's Christ himself. He is communion. And that my friends, like, there's nothing on earth that's, that's outside of this world. Like there's nothing on earth that can heal us that way.

I highly recommend Bob's book, Dr. Bob's book, be Healed. That's a very easy way of just, there's journaling questions and he has a shorter version now called Do You Wanna Be Healed? So like a book you can buy and just sit with it. Just take it little by little, step by step. If you know of somebody in your life who's a good spiritual guide of talking to somebody, of finding a good counselor.

I mean, just, there's different ways we can start little by little, but I think the first and foremost thing is just allowing the Lord to come into these places of our heart and, and starting to journey that place of honesty and then asking the Lord for the grace to be willing to, to try to, you know, to respond to his call there.

Beautiful. So many great resources and we'll make sure to list those in the, the show notes as well. And I think one of the biggest barriers for. The people that I work with, uh, when it comes to healing is that they struggle in their relationship with God. Mm-hmm. , you know, like I said, the majority of our listeners are from broken families.

And for so many of us, those barriers in the relationship with God are very real. Yeah. And they're very felt and asking God to, to heal them might in one case, seem very foreign because they don't even believe in him. Or in another case it's really difficult because of those barriers. And there's so many different things that we can talk about here, but overall to everyone listening who may not quite understand, like why, why is a relationship with God such a struggle for those of us who come from brokenness, uh, especially from broken families.

And what I would propose is that our parents represent God. You all have probably heard this, but our parents represent God. Uh, when we're young, they're the most powerful creatures that we know. Yeah. And so we tend to think, well, if they're like this, then God must be like this too. In some cases, that's probably beautiful cuz our parents are very heroic, they're virtuous and they do represent God in a very beautiful way.

Never fully, but they might represent 'em in a very beautiful way. On the flip side though, if you come from a very broken family where that wasn't the case, um, we can have very distorted images of God and which might prevent us from having any sort of a relationship with him. We might struggle with the question, you know, God, why are you allowing yes, this evil in my life to happen, or, God, why don't you make your love more obvious for me in my own life?

And so I'd love to kind of hit on each of those barriers, if, if that's okay with you, sister. The first one being, yeah. How can we untwist that extra distorted image of God that we, we have mm-hmm. . Yeah. I think what you're talking about is very real. And, and all of us have places in our life where we believe things about God that aren't true.

Every single person, like we have distortions just by living this side of heaven. All of us have distortions. We don't, you know, as St. Paul says, we see dimly now as in a mirror and we have a lot of fragmentation based on, and that what your, your statement about your parent, our parents are so important.

It's actually in the catechism that says, you know, the mother and the father represent God to the child. And that. That it's a very small and limited way and it can be distorted. Like it's that. That's like a profound statement in the catechism. And it says, but then it says at the end that nobody is father is God is Father.

There's nobody. And so I think understanding, a lot of times we find we start from our parents outward versus kind of like the outer limits of like, okay, Lord, I need you to reveal who I am or who. Who you are and who I am. And I think even naming our fears like what are some things you believe about God?

I think be very, being very honest about that, of what are some of the beliefs you have about God? And be very honest without self censoring of like, I believe God's not there for me, or that he doesn't care about me, or that he's cruel or he's sadistic, or that he just stood there and watched me watch this happen to me in my family, didn't do anything about it.

I think if we can kinda start naming even writing out what are some of the fears we have, then we can hold that up to the light about the Lord and we can see if that's true. I think this is why, you know, when we speak. So often I have youth ministers and parents and priests and like, how can we help people heal?

And I really believe, and I say this all the time, like the best gift, and I mean that in all sincerity. The best gift we can give our youth, our our, the kids we teach at school, our coworkers, our spouses, people in our pres, whatever that is, the best gift we can give them is to allow Jesus Christ to come and heal us every day.

So that means that personal, like my interior journey, and this is why our witness to each other is so profound because sometimes it's too, it feels too dangerous to start with God, but do we know somebody in our life is there at least one person in your life? Cuz God sends people into our life that you can trust.

And what is it about that person that you find so trustworthy? Maybe they're patient, maybe they're kind, maybe they're loving. And I think we can often start there. The Lord's not offended by that because he understands our woundedness. And if we can start looking at the things in, in people's lives, like where has authentic love in present in our life, where has understanding love, where has.

The truth and love and present in our life. And we can start there. It's very interesting. Even I was listening to, um, another talk by a therapy expert, and it was very interesting. He was saying that in many therapeutic models, when somebody goes on a journey of healing, and these are not Christian, okay, so I'm just throwing this out there.

But they're saying that you can, they invite the person to create in their heart a wise guide or a compassionate guide, and they say, what, what is that person like to you? And name their characteristics. And it's this person inside really listing all the characteristics of God, of saying that they're kind, they're loving to me, they're understanding.

They don't shame me. They tell me the truth when I need it. They encourage me. And, and then they'll say, what would that person say to you? Like, so if, if, if you can kind of create like a person, like in holding your heart an ideal person, a wise guide or a compassionate guide, what would that person say to you?

And I, I think it's a very interesting way of looking at the, the qualities of God when for many of us, he doesn't feel safe enough. Yeah. And, and I think what we find is, As we name those things about God, that we believe about him and he shows us the truth, and we can experience the rage, the pain, or the bitterness or whatever.

What we find is that God, we we're more receptive to the truth of, of who he is, and we see that God doesn't will bad things for us. He's not sadistic, he doesn't do that, but we all have to have a lived experience of that. So we have to know what gut says about himself, and then the experience of him toward us.

So I just kinda offer that to your heart. Those are just many different facets, but those have been really helpful, I think, along the way. Yeah, very helpful. And I think for the Catholics listening and even Evangelicals listening to, one of the things that I've found helpful is looking at scripture to say that definitely mm-hmm.

who is God actually. Mm-hmm. , you know what I mean? Because we, like you said, we have all these ideas. It's like hearing a bunch of rumors about a person that we've never actually met, we've never actually spent time with, but we're saying, oh, they're definitely like this. It's like, well, that's. Maybe we should go, you know, grab coffee with them and, and see like what are they actually like, hang out with them, get to know them in a more intimate way.

And I think a lot of those misconceptions that we have then are shattered. And another one that's been really helpful for me, and I understand this is maybe unique to us as Catholics, but the lives are the saints. Yes. Because they more than anyone really image who God is for us. Mm-hmm. . And so kind of seeing that in a more maybe modern or contemporary way, we're able to see oh, okay, like pure Georgia for society.

Like that's what God's like, I, I'm able to see kind of glimpses of him through, uh, the lives of the saint. So, and then again, taking that and comparing it to what we might think or believe on an even unconscious level, it can be really powerful. I, I totally agree with you. And I think that's been one of the most healing aspects of the gospels I know for me is just seeing and learning that Jesus never once in any of the gospels shames any of the sinners.

Never once, whether it's a woman con adultery, he doesn't shame Peter for his denial. He doesn't shame the people who are broken. He doesn't shame the lepers. He doesn't shame the man born blind. He doesn't, he doesn't shame any of the people in the gospel who need healing. Never. He tells 'em the truth.

Like, you know, when the woman at the wall says, you know, I don't have a husband, and he loves her, and he says, I know you've had five husbands and the man you're with now is not your husband. He's telling her the truth and love because he's Lansing the wound of lust. He's laning the wound and allowing the PU to come out so the wound can be healed.

But he's not shaming her the way other people have shamed her. She's at the well at noon because she's been shamed and she holds a lot of interior shame. So I think that for me of when I f Oh, I'm afraid Jesus is gonna shame me for like something new I discover in my heart, I'm like, oh, actually no, it's not true.

I can, I can hold that as a fear and say, Jesus, I'm afraid you're gonna shame me here. And I can hold that simultaneously with the truth that Jesus never shames the sinner ever. That's beautiful. And even that tactic you just said right now, I think a lot of people won't go there like telling that two Jesus, like in prayer.

That's a challenge for everyone listening right now. Like if you feel the in sync to pull away and to not talk to him about that. Push against that. Yeah. Like push against that strongly and tell them like, Hey, tell him this is what I'm feeling, this is what I'm experiencing. I think that's a great tactic as well.

I wanna turn to this question that so many of us struggle with, whether we come from broken families or not, but I know, especially for me, one question I've asked God for a long time, and I found a lot of like answers to this, but I wanna just tease this out that, God, when my family is falling apart, when everything was so painful in my life, like where were you?

Like why were you allowing this to happen? What would you say to someone struggling with that question right now? Mm-hmm. . Gosh, I think, I think anybody on planet Earth who's ever even halfway thought about their own life or the lives of somebody else has thought that. I think every single person. Just we look at our life and say, if God is so good, if, if that's true, then why is he allowing this to happen?

Or if it's not something that I'm personally experiencing, it's a suffering of other people. So like that's been the transcend, like the, the transcendent question from generation generation of, if God is so good, why is there suffering? And I think I, I just, there's been so many people that much holier and smarter than me who have talked about this, but I, I, I guess just to offer, cuz I've struggled in that my own life.

And there's not a, there's, there's no reason why we can't ask that question. And we can ask that question all we want. But ultimately I think intellectual answers are only gonna get us so far. I think allowing the Lord to show us an experience of where he was in those memories and. Many times I've had, I've sat with the memories in Jesus, you know, with Jesus and those memories.

And I've, I've seen him, or if I couldn't see him, I would experience him and understanding that Christ is more present to me than I am to myself, and that he can't ever leave me. I think that's one of the most beautiful things about our faith, is that it's a proclamation that I'm never alone. That I am never alone, that other people have abandoned me or rejected whatever that is in our life.

But God cannot leave us. He can't. He cannot. Psalm 1 39, the Lord can't leave us. He can't leave us. So that means he's with me. And if he's with me, that means there's something much deeper happening and, and I think, you know, we can ask why. And I think sometimes in life, You know, every now and then we'll get kind of a thread of a glimmer of like, well, if this wouldn't have happened, then this wouldn't have happened.

And you know, it's the saying that our gift and our wo our gift and our wound like side by side. So the places where the enemy has come, Satan has come to destroy us cuz we have an enemy. And the places where he's gone after us are the very places where the Lord is restoring. Where the Lord has broken our heart so deeply.

He's a, allow our hearts to be broken so deeply that we love in a way that would've never existed otherwise. And so there's a, there's a ity there in the mystery of suffering. And Father Jacque, Felipe, you know, and I know a lot of spiritual masters, father Jacque Felipe is one of them, but many spiritual masters throughout the ages have said, ultimately the question that we're not gonna ask ourselves is why.

I mean, you can only get, but the question really ultimately wanna ask ourselves is how will I respond now? Like, how will I respond now? So, Lord, show me where you are, Lord. What is your desire for me now? Like what you know, so I think, I think. Because sometimes we can get hung up on that question. And it's like, I, I, I hear my own heart when that question comes up, a lot of grief and a lot of rage, and that's okay, that's okay.

But in that place of, ultimately, I'm not really looking for an intellectual answer. I'm looking for a person. And I think that like Frodo at the end, I think all of us, when we leave this time of chronological time, like we all will, one day all of us will take our last breath on this earth and we will see God face to face and we will finally see as we are seen and know as we are known and love as we are loved.

I really believe, like, like CS Lewis writes, and, and until we have faces that we will behold the face of God. And I think our only response is gonna be, oh,

right, right. Okay. Yes. It could not have ever happened another way. Like, oh, okay. Just like, I think we're gonna be stunned at like the interweaving of everything that happened in our life of the intricacy, which with God wove our life, what the enemy meant for destruction. Where the Lord's like, Nope, the.

And it turned out in a way different than we thought. But the masterpiece that has arisen will be stunning to behold. I just, cuz he's a divine artist. I don't know. I just, yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. No, thank you. And for me personally, going back to, you know, that 11 year old I, for years, through a lot of prayer, through a lot of spiritual direction, wrestled with that question like, God, where were you?

Yeah. Where were you? Cause honestly, I felt like he was just sitting on the sidelines watching me. Mm-hmm. , get my teeth kicked in. Mm-hmm. . So like, God, like, where were you? And through, again, a lot of prayer didn't come easy, a lot of spiritual direction. I realized that he was actually right there with me in the midst of it.

Like he was with that 11 year old boy sitting next to me in the closet, like crying with me too. Saying like, I don't want it to be this way. It wasn't meant to be this way, but it, it has to be right now because I respect human freedom so much. And so, like I mentioned before, One of the things for me that's been really beautiful is realizing that, you know, sometimes God's only response to our pain is his presence.

Like Father me Schmitt said, and I think there's a lot of beauty in that. I invite everyone to wrestle with that question and, and really, um, meditate on it, pray with it, thinking like, okay, where is God in the midst of my suffering? And how can I, instead of pushing him away, which is my next question, how can I then hold onto him in the midst of it and see how that goes?

I know for me, like I've, I've always, or for a lot of time in my life, I would push him away as like the default. But what if you tried the opposite? What might happen? Maybe just experiment. Mm-hmm. , see, see what happens. Mm-hmm. . But getting to that point on kind of pushing God away. How can, how can we stop that?

How can we stop pushing God away? How can we stop running from him and instead embrace him mm-hmm. and hold onto him in the midst of those instances. I, I think being honest when we do that, of even when the temptation arises, of being very honest and saying, Lord, I wanna push you away right now. I want to self protect.

I want to run away. I don't wanna face this. I, I think that just being honest of, of the temptation to do that. And then if we can allow the Lord to bring up the deeper root, well, what, what am I afraid of? I'm, I'm, I'm a big fan of like, following the, following it down to its route. What am I afraid of? Like, am I afraid I'm gonna be rejected?

Am I afraid that it's too messy? Am I afraid that I'm a burden? Because those things are telling us stories and the stories we believe about ourselves. So what is it like, why do I wanna push God away? And why, you know, why, what is, what is the fear behind it? And we might find that in different days as different reasons.

It's very interesting. And then if we can just sit with that place of not, not minimize it. Just say, Lord, I, I am whatever. Say, say I'm ashamed. Like I'm ashamed of this struggle that I'm having Lord, and I'm afraid you're tired of it and you're disappointed in me and I, and if we can just kind of sit there and say, Lord, What is the truth here?

You know, I think this is, might be surprising to you, but one of my biggest deliverances from addiction was being able to sit in the places where I felt disappointed, where I just had to sit at my desk many times and say, you know what? I feel really disappointed right now and I'm really sad that that person did that.

Or, I'm really sad that that didn't go the way I wanted. And I can feel it in my body. I can feel in my heart. I don't have to do anything about it. like I don't. But I just, to name it and say, Lord, be with me here. Jesus. I'm feeling really disappointed, like, please be with me here and I, that that's the kind of honesty, more and more that helps get, it just gets everything out into the light.

I think when we start practicing that, I really believe this St. Paul says, pray without ceasing. He's not just talking about the rote prayers that we learned, say as Catholics or Christians. He's talking about the interactions of our life with the Lord of like, Lord, I wanna run away, or, Lord I'm feeling anxious, or, Lord, I don't like what I'm feeling.

I don't wanna feel this in my body. Lord Jesus, just help me. Come Holy Spirit and I, it's those little things that have the power to dramatically transform our lives. So then we don't live by ourselves anymore, that we're in constant communication with the one who, who so deeply loves us. Beautiful. And I think in our culture today, there's this constant desire for comfort.

And so I think we don't really know what it's like to sit in those difficult emotions and like you, that's been actually really healing for me. Mm-hmm. and in a way that you wouldn't expect, right? Yep. That, you know, I remember one of my mentors just after going through a rough breakup, um, it wasn't traumatic, it was just a difficult thing to go through for me.

And, um, I remember him like challenging me. He was like, you know, in the midst of that emptiness, in the midst of that pain, like, don't push it away. Don't run from it. Don't hide from it, but like, sit in it and invite God into it because he said that's actually where he wants to meet you in the midst of that.

And that was, that was really helpful and healing for me. One final barrier I wanted to touch on, wish I could spend all day with you, but we gotta, um, close, close this down. I, this is, I'll just be vulnerable with everyone here. Sometimes I feel like God, his love for me isn't as obvious as I wish it would be.

And I, uh, have a one year old daughter at this point, and I thought becoming a father would actually like, kind of automatically bring me closer to God. Mm-hmm. . But it's actually presented some problems and it's something I'm working through with my spiritual director and I, I've made some progress on this.

Yeah. But it's just something that I, I, here's the struggle when I wanna make my daughter feel loved. There's very simple ways I can do that. I can pick her up and like hug her and tell her, I love you, Lucy. I can play with her. I can take her to the park. I can like very clearly tell her like, I love you.

Like, make it so obvious that there's no doubt. Right. And that's where like the struggle for me has been like, well God, I really wish you would do the same for me. I really would wish you would make your love like, very obvious for me. And so, like part of me is like, well, you're just such. Hypocrite or you're, you're, he's done a lot for you already.

Right? He's died in the cross. And, but my knee jerk reaction is like, well, right. That was beautiful and I'm grateful for that. That was 2000 years ago. And then on the flip side, it's like, well, the Eucharist, like everything he's done for you in Eucharist, like, yeah, no, the Eucharist is really beautiful, but it's super veiled.

It sound very obvious in a lot of ways. So, um, it's something I, I'm working through again, but it's, um, I think a struggle for a lot of people. It's like, God, why, why don't you make your love more obvious for me? Why, why do I have to seek it so much? So I know that's a big question, but I'm curious, uh, what would you respond to that if someone came to you with that question?

Well, first of all, I'm just hearing your heart joy. I'm just hearing your heart and just think about your little girl and just what a lovely gift she is to your heart. I, I just, and just your ability to, and maybe in many ways, maybe when even your dad wasn't able to show you love the way that you get to show her love, like you get to.

Have this corrective experience of kindness, of attending to her heart, of knowing your heart now so well, that you can attend to hers and be attuned to her and, and just the gift of, of her and your life and the gift that you are to her. And I, and I, I think all of us have asked that question many times.

It just seems like God is absent, you know? And it's kind of like, here we are on this earth. Or without a father, we're orphans or like we want, and I don't think there's anything wrong at all about voicing those places of our heart to the Lord and just asking the Lord, Lord, show me. Show me where you're loving me.

Show me where you're loving me. And, and yes, like if, if physically like God sends us people, like one of the ways God reveals his love is he sends us people. Like that's why this, this road of healing is so serious for all of us is because we become living instruments of love for others. And so God often will reveal his love through the gift of others and through the gift of creation and beauty and like you said, the sacraments and, and sometimes, but like there's places in our heart, we just want God to come pick us up.

like, dad picked me up. I just need to be, I know I'm a grownup, but I need to be picked up right now. I feel like a little kid and there is absolutely nothing wrong with voicing that to the Lord. And I, I know in my own heart when I experience the same thing as you, joy, like I just like Jesus. Show me I'm so aching right now and I wanna believe the lie that you don't care about me or that.

I'm ungrateful, but I'm just really aching and I just, I just need you to pick me up. I just need you to show me how you're loving me, cuz I know you do so I just need that. I need you to do that for me and just see what happens and just see what happens. And also it does, it challenges some of the beliefs we have about God, like we said, of those are old stories many times.

And, and the Lord he doesn't, he's not sadistic, he does no violence to our human nature. So He doesn't expect us to be angels. We're not angels, we're humans. We're a union of soul and body. We're a hypomorphic union. And so the Lord is attending to us in both ways, both naturally and supernaturally. And I, I'm like, okay, Jesus, show me, show me how you're loving me cuz I know you're not cruel.

So show me how you're loving me cuz I really need that right now. No, that's beautiful. And just to kind of close the loop on that with my story, I don't wanna leave everyone hanging. There's been a lot of progress Yeah. On that end for me too. And I remember just like really wrestling with this question, I was like on a walk with my daughter Lucy, and we were going to adoration, there's iteration chapel not far from here.

And I just remember just like really being like, God, like I want your love for me to be more obvious. Kind of like I love my daughter and I, I like, it's so arrogant of me to think that I could be a better father than you, you know? Cuz I'm not. I know that my phone like malfunctioned. I had my earphones and I was like listening to some, like literally, I don't know how this happened.

Like, and I'm a tech guy, so I like understand this stuff pretty well. Literally like malfunction, like the song came on that I hadn't heard for years, like years wasn't on my like playlist, nothing like that. And uh, and it was like exactly what I needed to hear in that moment. It, it was like a Christian song.

So, but it was literally like God, like saying, Hey, this is what I wanna say to you. And it brought me to tears and I don't cry easily. Yeah. Like, so. Um, so that was beautiful. So he has kind of like broken through a lot of that. But the second thing I've learned is so often, like he actually wants to make his love more obvious to me, but I'm the one who's stopping it from happening.

Oh yes. I get in the way. So . So it's like, okay, I need to, you know, as if my daughter were to like kind of continually run from me or hide, it's like, well then I couldn't make my love obvious to her. Yeah. So those are a few things that I've realized a lot. Oh, that's such wisdom. And I love, oh, I love that.

So beautiful. Yeah. Thank you. And in the end of our time together, sister, again, I wish I could talk with you the whole day, but uh, yeah. I guess what are some of the results you've seen in people's lives and your own perhaps when they go to God for healing? What are some of the, the beautiful things that you've seen, the transformations you've witnessed?

I know you've seen a lot of them, so I think it would be good for people who'd never hear this sort of thing. What, what are those transformations? To me, I see the manifestation that love is real. I see people becoming more human and more humble and more kind and, and stronger and more loving and more honest and able to receive the brokenness of others without pushing them away or without engaging in decades long struggle.

Those things come to an end and maybe the other person, the situation hasn't changed, but you have. and there's real freedom that happens. There's deliverance from our coping mechanisms of addiction. There's deliverance from unforgiveness and hatred and self hatred and self contempt and self destruction.

And it's coming to the places of, of being naked without shame, really. You know? And you see Jesus, who you know, like Adam, and ever naked in the garden without shame. And then you see shame enters in and you see Christ. He's crucified and he's naked. Christ is naked on the cross, and he's stripped and he's a bride, groom, pierce for the bride, completely vulnerable, completely powerless.

And he's there without shame. And he's bringing us into the truth of, of what it means to be human. And our hearts grow and become more like him. And that I, I really believe joy. Like I really believe that kind of holiness, that can't be faked. Like there's a lot of things in life we can fake. But we cannot fake an intimate relationship with Christ because it just is radi.

It radiates from us. And I have seen it happen in my own life. I've seen it happen in lives of other people. I believe in the authentic power of love. I believe in it. I believe in it, and I will never stop speaking of that because it's so powerful and it's just so true. And I, it's true. It's the most eternal thing that love heals and that's what God does.

That's what he do. That's what he does, and that's eternal truth. Beautiful. I love it. One, uh, resource that I would recommend for healing is your book. Loved As I Am. Mm-hmm. . Will you tell us a little bit about like why did you write it and what's in the book and what do you want for people who, who read it?

Sure. Yeah. That was a book that I wrote about 10 years ago and I was approached by Avin Maria Press and they, they said, Hey, you know, we've seen some of YouTube videos. Can you tell us your story? And I wrote kind of more of an academic treatise on the catechism. And they're like, well, that's really great, but we really actually want

We want more of your story. So it's an interweaving of what it means to be human, of theology of the body of my own story. It's got reflection questions in it, discussion questions, and it's small on purpose. And my heart, when I wrote it all those years ago, and to this day, is when you close the book, you say, Okay.

I want, I want to get honest about this part of my life, or, okay. I, I want to dive a little bit more deeply into this. I might be afraid, but I, and so just a little tiny invitation unto more. And since then I've wrote two, I've written two more books. One of last l called Restore, and then one of this advent called Behold.

And it's about healing with your families, about healing with your mom, with your dad, you as a child. And, and so it just like forgiveness, all those things. And so just giving people resources, I really just want just be a gentle guide of just gonna take your hand gently and lead you along this path if you wanna come.

And if you need to sit down, we'll sit down and we'll rest together. Well, you know, and just to let the Lord come and find you. And that's, yeah, that's my deepest desire for all of. Beautiful. And is behold the one about the mother, father? It is relationships and healing. Mm-hmm. . Okay. Cause I think that's very relevant to our audience.

Yeah. And so I'll be actually walking through that, this, this advent with people. So Advent is, you know, the, the, the Sundays we celebrate up until the Christmas season. So if you go to the Avan Maria Press Instagram account, I'll be doing some Instagram lives and things like that. Um, just walking with a book, and you can do the book by yourself.

There's videos that come out every Sunday that are free from a Maria press that will kind of give you an overview of the week. And you can do it by yourself. You can do it with your parish community, your small group, whatever that is. Just to, yeah. To allow you to encounter deeper healing in your heart with the, the main people in your life.

And just to let Jesus bring you home in his holy family. This, uh, advent, which is, I, I love the holy family. They're so beautiful and so wonderful and they have so much for us and we're always welcome at their. A lot of us needed to hear that. So thank you so much. Thank you for coming on the show, for taking so much time with us.

Um, how can people follow you if they wanna know more? I know you mentioned the AER Press, but, and their Instagram page. Is there other places that people can follow you? A co-host, a podcast called Abiding Together, and so you can check us out on Instagram or Facebook or our website, abiding together podcast.com.

Um, I'm also on Twitter at one. Groovy, none . I don't, I'm not, I'm not personally on any other social media account. If you wanna know about my, about my religious community, you can check out so lt.net, that's the Society of Our Lady of the Most Holy trinity solt.net. And um, yeah, you'll find different things on YouTube that people post.

So there's many different resources. Yeah, all the books are available on Amazon too, so. Sounds awesome. I love your handle, by the way, . They're like, are you old enough or groovy? I'm like, I'm probably not . Well, sister, thank you again. I wanna give you the final word, and the question is as what encouragement would you give to anyone listening right now who feels stuck?

Who feels broken? Because of the wounds in their life, but especially because of their broken family and their parents' broken marriage. Uh, what, what encouragement would you give to them? Mm, I would tell you that, I'm sorry. Those things, um, have happened to you, are happening to you. It's not fair and it's not right.

And I'm sorry. And I wanna tell you that this is not the end of the story. This is not the end that we are not the Saint John Paul II says, we are not a summation of our faults or our failures or what other people have done or what they've done to us. That is not the summation of who we are. We. So some of the father's love for us, and I just wanna invite you on this journey.

It's worth it. It's not easy, but it's so worth it. And yeah, that we are never alone. Oh gosh. We are never, we are never alone. And so just to encourage you on yeah, on the journey of love, because it matters and you matter.

There's so much in that episode to unpack, but I wanna leave you with a few, uh, questions to reflect on, to think about. One is, what's holding you back from believing in God? So if you don't believe in God, what's holding you back from actually believing in him? What's standing in the way of having a relationship with God?

So maybe you do believe in him, but you don't have a great relationship with him, or it's a big struggle, what's standing in the way. And then finally, what's preventing you from asking God to heal you And actually letting him do that. Give those questions some thought, and I even challenge you to, to talk to God about those things with no filter and just see what happens.

As a reminder, if you wanna buy the book, it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents divorce, you can buy that on Amazon or go to restore ministry.com/books or just click the link in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them.

Always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

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#083: 3 Steps to Navigate Your Broken Family During the Holidays | Margaret Vasquez

If you’re from a broken family, you don’t need anyone to tell you how stressful, depressing, or just plain difficult the holidays can be. If you can relate, this episode is for you.

If you’re from a broken family, you don’t need anyone to tell you how stressful, depressing, or just plain difficult the holidays can be. If you can relate, this episode is for you.

In it, we offer:

  • 3 steps to plan the holidays, so you can reduce the drama and actually enjoy them

  • Advice from a former trauma therapist on how to deal with your difficult emotions this time of the year, so they don’t control you and you don’t act out in unhealthy ways

  • Resources to help you cope, heal, and grow from the trauma of your broken family

Apply for coaching with Margaret 

Join Restored’s community

10 Questions

  1. When will you spend time with each parent, if possible?

  2. Who can you ask to be your swim buddy?

  3. What three things should you do to take care of yourself?

  4. What healthy distractions can you use in intense situations?

  5. What predictable circumstances will come up and what can you say or do in them?

  6. What expectations and boundaries need to be set?

  7. If you can’t be with your family, what can you do to experience some sort of community instead of your family? 

  8. When and how will you communicate the plan?

  9. What can you say to lead with your intention?

  10. What’s your plan to respond if mom or dad gets upset?

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Links & Resources

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you're from a broken family, you don't need me to tell you how stressful, even depressing, or just plain difficult the holidays can be. And if you can relate to that, this episode is for you. In it, we offer three steps to plan the holidays so you can reduce the drama and actually enjoy them. And this advice, by the way, is based on my team and I listening to hundreds of people from broken families, and also it's based on years of doing it ourselves.

We come from broken families ourselves, my team and I. And so we've done this ourselves and we've learned a lot of lessons along the way. And then finally, we pull on resources that we've built in the past for you guys on this topic. We continue to refine that content to make it better, uh, more useful, more helpful for you.

You're also gonna hear advice from a former trauma therapist and how to deal with your difficult emotions this time of the year, so they don't control you and you don't act out in unhealthy ways that are gonna hurt you or maybe that you'll later regret. And she even touches on things like how to more easily identify what you're feeling, which is more difficult than it sounds, so that you can properly respond and take care of yourself.

And she offers some practical tactics that you can use, like how sparkling water can actually trigger serotonin release and actually help you to feel good during this difficult season. And then finally, we offer some resources to help you cope, heal, and grow from the trauma of your broken family, especially during this holiday season.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the Restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation, or broken marriage so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pinelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 80. If you're from a broken family and you feel alone, or maybe you're looking for support stores, online community is for you.

Our community offers a safe place for you to speak openly about the pain and the problems that you face. It also helps you not feel so alone because you're surrounded by people in our community, who've been through what you've been through, their parents divorced or separation, or maybe just really broken marriage and really get you, and then you'll be challenged to grow into a better, stronger person.

So if you wanna join our online community, it's really easy to do. It's three steps. Just go to restored ministry.com/community. Again, restored ministry ministry singular.com/community. Just fill out the quick form on that page, and then we'll add you to the group. Again, go to restored ministry.com/community, or just click on the link in the show.

So this show has actually broken into two main segments and segment two. My guest is Margaret Vasquez, the former trauma therapist that I mentioned, who is gonna talk about navigating the emotional side of the holidays. Now, before we get into that, I'm gonna touch on the logistical or the planning side of the holidays, but I wanted to introduce Margaret first.

After over 15 plus years treating trauma clients of all ages, presenting to a wide variety of groups in person and through guest appearances on e w, TN radio shows and podcasts. Margaret began her coaching and consulting practice and presenting workshops and retreats to religious priests, deacons, and lay people online.

And in person. And Margaret, you might remember, she's been a guest on the show in episodes 37 and 63, and at this point, I can't say much, but you'll be hearing from Margaret much more in the future. There's really exciting things ahead here at ReSTOR. I'm excited to share those with you. In the time comes, just make sure to stay tuned.

But before we get to Margaret, I'm gonna offer some advice for planning the holidays. All right, so diving into the planning portion, the logistical portion, I want you to imagine you and me just sitting down in front of a fire, maybe having a drink. Okay? Just me as your brother, kind of sharing what we've learned along the way.

What's helpful when it comes to navigating the holidays from a broken family? And there are basically two ways to navigate the holidays. If you're from a broken family, you can do it reactively. Or you can do it proactively, and you can think of it this way. You can be a firefighter that fights fires as they start.

As they arise. That's being reactive. It's one way to solve problems. It can be effective, but it's a lot more stressful and it's more dangerous and you can get hurt or you can be a fire prevention pro that prevents fires from happening in the first place. And if they do, has a plan or a system in place to deal with those fires to stop them from spreading.

You can think of a sprinkler system or maybe fire extinguishers in a building, and that's being proactive, right? It does take more work on the front end, but it's less stressful and less dangerous in the end, and there's a better chance that you won't get hurt. Now you get to choose when it comes to the holidays, do you want to be react?

Or proactive and the steps I'm about to offer you. The tips within these steps as well is gonna help you to be proactive. By the way, these tips, these steps are not complicated. They're simple, but they're not easy to do. And so often we just don't do them. And by choosing to avoid that discomfort of being proactive, all it takes to be proactive, we automatically settle for the drama and the tension that come with being reactive with our families during the holidays.

And so I hope that this plan, that these steps really help you to be proactive. Do it this in simple ways. It doesn't need to take a lot of time, but it's then gonna make your whole holiday season and your whole interactions with your families much better. So the first step is very simple. Again, make a plan.

Make a plan. But what should that plan include? The first thing I'd. Make sure you have time set aside for each parent in advance. This is assume you're gonna be in the same area as both of your parents. So for example, let's say on Christmas Eve you spend time with dad and then on Christmas day you're spending time with mom.

And the benefits of spending time on separate days are one. It allows you to really focus on each parent without hopefully worrying about the other parent. It also gives mom and dad some assurance in advance that they're gonna get time with you, uninterrupted time with you, and then also you could just avoid burning out.

It can be exhausting, especially in a single day, trying to navigate both mom and dad and perhaps both of their families as well. And so that's, uh, super helpful to make sure you set time in advance for each of your parents to spend with each of them. Your plan should also include not doing it alone. So basically what I mean by this is if you have siblings, involve them in the planning, make a plan together, be a team, and you can do this really simply by just starting a group chat or maybe doing a video call with your siblings or even a phone call and just.

Ask some questions to get the discussion going. You can ask them, you know, Hey, what are your plans for the holiday? And they might not have any. But then together you can make those plans. And if those relationships are tense, then make sure to just keep it simple, right? You don't need to go into a ton of detail, just got a basic plan together.

And if those relationships with your siblings are perhaps toxic, then I totally understand you won't be able to do much with your siblings, and that's okay. And I'm sorry you're in that situation. But if you can involve them, make sure to do it and it'll make the planning go a lot better as part of not doing it alone too.

You need to get a swim buddy. What do I mean by this? During buds, BUDS stands for basic Underwater Demolition Seal training. It's, uh, the training that Navy seals go through one of the initial trainings to become seals. They're assigned a swim buddy and basically a swim buddy is where you. And another trainee are teammates to look after each other.

You support each other. You literally swim together and make sure the other is okay, that you're not drowning, that you're not struggling in some way. And so Margaret is gonna touch on this a little bit further in this episode, but this is really important to have just someone, a friend, likely or maybe a mentor, that you could check in with from time to time if things get difficult, especially who can just kind of be there for you, who can look out for you, someone you can, you know, lean on in a healthy way to support you through this season.

And then finally, plan some fun with your friends. When it comes to doing this planning alone, make sure you put your friends in the plan. While it's really good to spend time with your parents, you wanna make sure that you're blocking out some time to spend with your friends too. And I think so often what happens for those of us who come from broken families is since we're spending time with both of our parents separately, and that could be so time consuming, our other relationships often suffer.

I've seen this a lot with my friendships and so do what you can to really plan some time with those other people that you'd like to see as well. It might take some extra effort, by the way, but, But what I've learned is it's totally worth it. I'm always grateful that I make an effort to see some of my friends, even if it's difficult to fit them in between navigating, you know, my relationship with mom and dad, making sure we're spending time with both of them.

And last year, I think it was last year, my wife, Bridget and I, we took our daughter Lucy to see our friends, Peter and Annie and Louis and Victoria. And it was awesome. It was a really good time. We were staying with my mom and it was like an hour or more drive to see them one way. So, you know, we're driving two, two and a half hours to spend time with them.

But it was awesome. We. Dinner together, and we just had a great time together and I was really glad that I made time to see my friends. So don't do it alone. Involve your siblings. Get a swim buddy, and then plan some fun with your friends. The next thing that should be included in your plan is just taking care of yourself.

Again, Margaret's gonna touch on this a little bit further. But this is super important not to neglect yourself during this time. It's almost like being an athlete who has a big game that they're preparing for, or, or maybe they're in the midst of, like during that time, you have to take care of yourself, otherwise you're not gonna be able to perform, uh, at your peak.

You're not gonna be able to navigate the difficult waters, um, as well as you could if you were kind of in a healthy good spot. And so some really basic things you can do to take care of yourself is just make sure you're sleeping enough and try to get good quality sleep too. Make sure you're drinking enough water.

So it kind of depends. I've asked doctors this question like, how much water should you be drinking? It kind of varies per person, like how active you are and perhaps where you live too. But what I've gathered is you basically wanna drink half a gallon to a gallon of water each day. Again, half a gallon to a gallon of water each day.

I'm sorry, I don't know the conversion in leaders for, uh, non-US listeners. I apologize about that. But, um, you can do. So make sure to drink enough water that's really gonna help you, help your mind, stay clear, sharp, and also to help your body feel energized and rested. Get some exercise in too, and it doesn't need to be something super intense.

Margaret and I will discuss this a little bit, but just moving your body can be really, really helpful and help you to feel good. It can release endorphins to where it will make you feel really good. Another thing you could do to take care of yourself is just eating food that's good for you. And if you're religious as well, make sure that you're praying.

And then there's other things too of, you know, maybe reading good books or playing games, keeping your mind sharp and keeping it relaxed as well. And then, of course, like I mentioned already, spending some time with friends too. Those could all be things that you do, uh, to take care of yourself. And you can fill in the blanks too, like what does it take for you to take care of yourself?

What would it look like to kind of be in this a good spot, even though maybe you're going into a tense or dramatic situation with your family? Another part of taking care of yourself is having healthy distractions. So like healthy coping mechanisms basically. And if you're constantly in situations or, or with people maybe that drain you, it's really important to have a way to kind of revive yourself.

And again, Margaret and I are gonna discuss this further, but the basic idea is to do things that are good for you and that give you life. So that might mean playing games with your siblings. I know for me it does playing sports as well. It's always something that gives me life. Watching good movies. I love movies.

And so watching a good movie can really give me life and help me to relax a bit. And then also having good conversations with my friends. It's always something I really look forward to, as well as some other things that really do give me life. And by the way, if you're at a party, maybe a family party, a healthy distraction might look like going for a walk or maybe hanging out in another room, taking a break from some of the conversations you're having.

So just have all these little things. In your back pocket that you can pull out. So you don't need to think about it too much in the midst of those situations. And then finally, taking care of yourself can look like avoiding isolation too. While it's good to have some alone time, it can be taken really to an unhealthy level, and I'm sure we've all been there.

I know I've struggled with loneliness in my past, and so make sure you're not isolating yourself as a way to hide. And if you spent the majority of the holidays or last few days on your own, you know, without talking to your friends in person or maybe over the phone or even messaging them, uh, you're likely isolating yourself.

And one thing I should say too, is you can even feel really lonely if you are messaging people. And so it's really good to have like that face time with each other, whether that's over a call, but ideally it's gonna be in person as well. And so make sure you're, you're doing that stuff, even if you don't totally feel like it, it's really good to push yourself through that and not isolate yourself, but spend time with people who are good for you, who respect you, who love you, and who can give you a little bit of life.

And if you feel lonely, by the way, that's a sign that you're perhaps isolated and that you need to do something about it. And so make sure to reach out to friends or maybe your siblings or, uh, some relatives that you can spend some time with again, to avoid that isolation, which can be really detrimental during this time of.

So those are some basic tips to take care of yourself. Another thing I would say your plan should include is prepare for predictable circumstances. What I mean by this is it could be, you know, mom or dad bringing a new partner to a family party. It can be an overbearing relative or maybe one of your parents badmouthing the other.

And if these things kind of tend to happen, you kind of know, well, this is probably gonna happen. Uh, you can prepare what you wanna say, what you want to do, or maybe how you can avoid the situation altogether. For example, when dad introduces his new girlfriend, maybe you can say, Hi, I'm Joey. You don't need to say, Hey, it's great to meet you, or a pleasure to meet you if you're not in that spot yet.

You shouldn't have to force your feelings or be overly polite. You know, you should be cordial and diplomatic. Um, but you could plan something kind of generic to say like that and just keep the conversation on the surface level. You don't need to go super deep. That's one way to plan ahead for these kind of predictable circumstances.

Another way is, let's say that overbearing relative starts pestering you with questions. You can say something like, Hey, I'm sorry, I need to run to the bathroom. You know, kind of get yourself outta that situation and hopefully not be cornered again. And then finally you can say, you know, when mom starts badmouthing dad, for example, you can get up and go sit with someone else or, and you could do it politely, excuse yourself.

Hey, hey, I'm sorry, I'm gonna go, you know, help out in the kitchen. I'm gonna go play with my cousins, whatever. And again, all of this comes down to thinking ahead, thinking about, well, this happened last year. It's happened the last few years. This is likely to happen again. And not being taken by surprise with that, right?

Think through like, Okay, how am I gonna deal with. Again, this doesn't need to be complicated. Just give it a little bit of thought so you're not taken by surprise. And if you do that little bit of prep work, just thinking ahead, planning about what you wanna say, what you wanna do, how you wanna avoid these situations, it can go really far to prepare for those predictable circumstances.

Another thing that your plan needs to include is expectations and boundaries. So the main idea behind really all of these tips and these three steps I'm offering you is really the idea of setting expectations for you and for your parents. And in other words, to set boundaries that tell everyone involved kind of the rules of engagement for interacting with you.

And they might sound kind of extra, but that's not the case. Okay? Because boundaries really communicate to others what is allowed and what isn't allowed. And setting the days and times that you'll spend with mom and dad, for example, is a good basic way to set those boundaries. And by the way, don't feel guilty for setting boundaries if you're not used to setting boundaries.

It might feel kind of mean, but, but I can assure you it's not. Boundaries are a sign of a healthy person. Boundaries are a sign of a healthy person. And imagine not having boundaries. Imagine you let anyone do anything that they wanted to you like that would be ridiculous. It would be extremely unhealthy for you.

And for them, and it would end really badly for everyone involved. And so boundaries are necessary to be a healthy and whole person, which I think we all want. And further than that, boundaries are actually really good for you and for your relationships. For example, it's good that my wife and I have some time to ourselves, some alone time.

It's good that you and your parents have some time to yourselves as well. It isn't mean it's just healthy. It's it's normal human behavior. And also boundaries really help you to take care of yourself, like I mentioned too. And if you really wanna love people, well, if you wanna be, again, that healthy and whole person, if you wanna have great relationships, Boundaries are absolutely necessary.

And if you want more information on boundaries, if maybe this is a new topic for you or something you'd wanna work on, check out episode 36. Episode 36. We cover boundaries in that episode. So make sure your plan includes boundaries and expectations. Make sure your plan is also a little bit flexible, right?

We don't want it so planned out that we can't adapt at all. And some of you guys who are extreme planners like you are loving this episode, probably. You're like, This is great. I, you know, I already do most of this, but I'll add some things in here or there. And then those of you who aren't planners are thinking, This is so weird, why would I do this?

And so I wanna challenge kind of both of you. The ones who are, are really. Extra extreme planners. Just make sure you're not getting too strict with your plan. And those of you who aren't planners, put some time into this. You know, you don't need a 20 step plan that you're putting into place, but just something simple can go a long way.

And then just wanted to say that not every minute needs to be planned, of course, but it, again, it's gonna take some pressure off of you if you have a basic plan in place. We've heard tips from people who've done this for a long time, or people who've followed our advice from restored, who've found planning to be really, really helpful.

And it can honestly look as simple as like calling mom or dad or texting them and just saying like, Hey, I wanna spend this time with you and this time with. The other parent. And so it can go a long way. And again, not having a plan can add that pressure and add some stress, which I'll, I'll touch on a little bit later.

But again, feel free to adapt the plan, adapt the plan if you need to. And you can even have backups, for example, if you know that you know, same with your dad, you might get a little dramatic or tense on, and that actually happens. And you can have a backup plan of like going to your grandparents house or going to your aunt and uncle's house or a friend's house.

Some backup can be really good as well. So having some flexibility in your plan is really good as well. Your plan might also include some new traditions. So maybe you're married or you soon will be, or maybe you're going off to college for the first time. You can keep in mind that you can start new tradit.

By yourself, with your friends, with your spouse, with your kids. And perhaps that might even look like serving other people. One family that I really admire, some friends of mine, they would go to visit nursing homes around Christmas time, is a really beautiful way of serving other people, kind of getting outside of themselves, which is a really beautiful tradition.

And so you can create traditions for yourself, for your kids, for your spouse, for maybe just you and your friends or maybe you and your siblings that maybe don't need to involve both of your parents, maybe involve one or whatever that might look like. And so, uh, don't be afraid to start those new traditions.

And then finally, what if things in your relationship with your parents aren't good? I totally get this. And if it's to the extent that you can't see mom or dad, I would just wanna first say, That's rough. I, I hate that you're going through that and we're here for you. I'm really sorry. I've been there myself certain years, certain holiday seasons, and it's no fun.

And if that's the case, my question for you really is this, what can you do to experience some sort of family, some sort of community instead of your immediate family? And that might look like going over to a friend's house, going to a friend's family house, or maybe even having friends over to your place for that particular held.

And that can become your plan. That can, in a way, become your family. So if things in your relationship with your parents aren't good, just make sure you have a backup for that as well, where you're joining another family or starting some of an attrition of your own with your friends. And again, this might seem like a lot of work, but you can keep it really simple.

And a plan really helps you to reduce the drama, to set expectations and boundaries, and most importantly, to take care of yourself so you don't fall into a dark place or do things that you'll maybe later regret. And so a plan also helps you avoid any unwanted surprises. So you can avoid being, you know, thrown into maybe an uncomfortable situation because you didn't think ahead, you didn't plan ahead, you didn't, you know, ask questions about who's gonna be at this party or what's going on here or there.

You've, if you think through that stuff, there's much less likelihood that you're gonna be surprised. And not having a plan really is no good. It might seem easier now, and it might truly be that way cuz you don't need to put time into it or any energy into it. But it often leads some more. More tension and a lot of dysfunction in the end.

And so my challenge to you is this, especially if you're not a planner, push through the discomfort of making a simple plan. It doesn't need to be too complicated. It doesn't need to take long. Just go ahead and push through it. And if it's helpful, you can write it out, you know, put it on paper, put it in your notes app or in your calendar, whatever that might look like.

And towards the end of this segment of the show, I'm gonna give you a little exercise that you can do to write out your plan. You'll just get some questions that you can use. If you answer those questions, you'll basically have a plan. It's really, really simple. All right, so now that you've made a plan, the next step is really simple as well.

And it's communicating that plan, which can be difficult. It's not easy. And so what this looks like basically is just talking to your parents, ideally in person. If it can't be in person, do it over the. If it can't be over the phone, do it through email or text message. And again, in person's best phone is next.

Email or text is last. And you can even write a letter if you need to, like, especially if you're maybe taking some time away spending with your parents because things are toxic or dramatic at home. You can just let them know like, Hey, here's why I'm doing this. I do love you, but I need some time away.

And in all your communication, make sure you're leading with your intention. For example, you can say, I wanna tell you this plan in advance to really set expectations and to make sure that we spend time together. It can be that simple. And so what do you wanna do here is just make sure that your parents know that each of them are part of the plan.

And some things you can say to kind of reassure them is, I wanna see you, I wanna spend time with you. Letting them know you want them to be a part of the plan. And now let's say you can't see both parents or maybe one parent. You can give the reasons why, at least in a diplomatic way. You can say, Hey, I just can't afford to make the trip.

Or, you know, I'm not in a spot where I can do that because it's really exhausting for me. Or it's just a little too much on me this year. Especially if you have a family, maybe you have little kids, you can just say, Hey, we can't make it this year. Or you can just say, Hey, I need a break this year. It's a, it's been a lot.

Everything we've been going through as a family, I need a breather this year. I wanna make sure that next year we can spend time together. I'll need to revisit that later, but I hope that we can, I hope we're in a better spot. And so just make it more about you than about them, because if you make it about them, kind of blaming them for what they've done, even if there's truth to it, they can get really defensive.

It can turn into this whole dramatic thing. And as you can tell with all these tips, part of that communication is really, again, being honest with your parents about how you're feeling. And this obviously assumes that you're in a spot where you at least can have a, a decent relationship with your parents and you can talk to them about what you're going through.

And sometimes, sadly, for a lot of us from broken families, uh, that's not the case. And so that brutal honesty and that vulnerability might not be possible. And even if it is, just understand that you're not gonna give your parents these warm and fuzzy feelings, especially if there's some boundaries you're putting in place that are new that they're not used to.

They're not gonna have warm and fuzzy feelings, but hopefully, They'll respect you for your honesty. They'll respect you for what you're doing, setting boundaries in, in a good, healthy, responsible way. And if they don't know that, I'm proud of, you know, know that you're doing the right things. Know that you're, you're speaking your truth and, and that's really all that you can do.

And how people react. Is that really outside of your control? Now, what if your parents are upset? Couple tips here. Stay calm. If they're freaking out, stay calm. Don't be tempted to kind of jump into the fray and maybe start yelling or getting aggressive as can sometimes happen with those of us who come from broken families.

So stay calm, take a deep breath and try to have compassion. Try to have some empathy. This is what I've learned from Margaret. You'll hear talking about this too. Think about, you know, Hey, what would I feel if I was in their shoes? You know, think about, okay, if I'm a parent, if I'm a mom or. And my kid doesn't wanna spend time with me or is limiting the time that I would spend with them.

Hopefully, you know, a responsible person should be respectful of that, but you can think, Well, I might be upset too. I would wanna spend time with my son or my daughter as well. And so I kind of get why they're upset, even if the way they're expressing that isn't very respectful. And then finally, you know, speak the truth.

Be honest, like I said before. You can tell them what you're thinking, what you're feeling. And as a part of that, one good tactic you can use is really just asking some good questions to kind of communicate your point of view. Um, in this whole conversation, some of the questions that you can ask are actually from an FBI negotiator named Chris Voss.

He wrote a great book called, Uh, Never Split the Difference, and he, he has a lot of great tactics that he offers. There's one main one that I. Touch on when it comes to conversations with your parents, and that is asking the question, How am I supposed to do that? How am I supposed to do it? So if your parents ask you to do something that's maybe complicated or difficult or even I impossible, you can just ask that question, How am I supposed to do that?

And what you're looking for, by the way, is an answer for how you can actually do that, how you can make it work. But what usually happens is when things are unreasonable, the request is so impossible or difficult that there's no real way of doing it. So it kind of stumps the person who's making the request from you.

Again, it's not to be mean, it's really just to convey to them like, Hey, This is what you're asking of me. I don't really know how to do that. How am I supposed to do that? I'm waiting for a response. And so that's a great question you can ask. And then when it comes to other questions, just ask questions aimed at understanding and empathy.

So you can say things like, you know, Hey mom, hey dad. In your mind, what did you expect this year to look like? You know, help me understand this cuz you're obviously upset with what I'm saying, but what did you expect it to look like? Did you expect me to just spend time with you and not my dad? Then you can kind of have that conversation too, and it kind of brings to light maybe these unrealistic expectations that hopefully through asking again more good questions.

Um, the other person that the parent will. Um, understand kind of where you're coming from and see, okay, maybe I'm being a little bit unreasonable. Even if they don't, in the intensity of the conversation, hopefully later at night or the next day, they'll start to realize like, okay, I was being a bit unreasonable.

And a question I frequently use with my parents, by the way, is, if you were in my shoes, what would you do if your mom or dad were asking you what you are right now asking me? So again, like for example, if like dad were to say, I want you to only spend time with me this holiday season. It's like, Okay, dad, I want you to imagine you're me and you know, your, uh, dad is asking you this.

How would you feel? And what I've seen is it really forces them to put themselves in your shoes. And then they realize, Okay, yeah, maybe I am being a little bit unrealistic, or I'm demanding a lot from my kids because I just don't want them to spend time with my spouse, with their mom. And so, um, asking those good questions can really make the other person think.

So that's the second step, is just communicate that plan. And then the final step is really executing the plan. So sticking to the plan that you put in place. And again, you can adapt if needed. If there's good reason to do that, go for it. But part of the reason for having a plan is that you don't wanna allow someone else to take control of your time, of your plan and adapt it for you to maybe their benefit.

For example, let's say you get an invite or request from dad to attend some party and to see him during time that you're spending with your mom, right? And if that's the case, you can kind of point back to the plan. You don't even need to point to yourself. You can say, Hey, dad. We talked about this, this is the plan I'm spending time with Mom.

I, I look forward to seeing you in a few days or whenever you're gonna see 'em. And so you just remind them of the plan. It makes those conversations a lot easier. Even if they do get a little bit upset, you at least have something to point back to that you can communicate it ahead of time. And another thing I would say is learn from it as well.

So don't feel the need to have the perfect plan or perfectly execute that plan. Instead, you can look at this as sort of an experiment. So an experiment really to find the right balance between your parents or find the best solution for the holidays for you, and then you can then make some changes next year based on what you learned this year.

So pay attention to those lessons and don't feel the pressure to kind of have it all figured out right away. You're learning. We're all learning. And so, uh, take that mindset of kind of being an experimenter with this plan, with this holiday season. Just some final reminders. Don't feel guilty, okay? You didn't cause this situation in your family, and it might sound kind of callous to say that, but really one or both of your parents caused this to happen.

And so you shouldn't have to shoulder all the negative effects of it, especially during the holiday or really any time. And remember, you're not being mean to your parents. In fact, you're helping them too. You're helping them to build a healthier relationship with you by putting those healthy boundaries in place, by having this plan.

And again, what can you do if maybe you can't see one or even both parents, again, make sure you're spending time with another family or with friends so you're not just, there's not just this void of you being alone. And so it's ideal that you pick a family or a group of friends that you would want your future family to be like.

That's a really beautiful thing to do. And if you have kids, make sure you're protecting them. What can happen so often is you're so busy trying to please your parents, that your kids can just be exhausted and just really run down, and so don't sacrifice your kid's sanity. Just to please your relatives or your parents, Your immediate family is the most important thing.

Now, another thing, what if your parents are together at a party? This can be tricky. I've been in this situation, my siblings and I have been in this situation, and it can be pretty darn awkward, to be honest. And so in those situations, what I've learned is you really just have to surrender to the fact that you can't control your parents.

You can't control how they interact or who they, you know, talk to during that party. Or if they're interacting at all together. It can be weird again, especially if they're not on talking terms or there's just kind of a lot of tension there. Um, but you just kinda have to surrender the fact, Hey, I can't control this situation.

It is what it is. And, uh, kind of take that weight off your shoulder and if you need a break again, Do it, you know, hang out with other people or go for a walk at the party. Not a problem at all. Now what if you live at home, you might be able to spend a little extra time with the parent that doesn't live at home during the holiday season.

And so I, I'd suggest that, you know, speak with the parent that does live at home, kind of setting that expectation that, hey, you know, I'm gonna spend maybe a few extra days is not gonna be a perfect 50 50 split, um, between you and dad or you and mom. Um, so I just wanna set those expectations up front and explain, Hey, this is why I'm gonna be spending more time with them because dad doesn't live in town here.

You do. And so I definitely wanna make sure that I'm spending time with you, but it's gonna be a little bit skewed towards spending time with, you know, with Dad, for example. And a reminder for those of you who are married to someone from an intact family, You shouldn't have to split time evenly between your in-laws, your dad's side and your mom's side.

It shouldn't be a one third, one third, one third split. It should really be a 50 50 split to where your wife's side of the family, for example, gets 50% of your time and your side of the family gets 50% of the time. And then you would split that 50% in half between mom and dad, 25 to dad, 25 to mom, or honestly whatever percentage you want it to be cuz you are in control of this.

You don't have to, you know, be dictated to who you get to spend time with. You get to decide who you spend time with and so just keep that in mind because there can be this pressure. And then your spouse who comes from an intact family could feel cheated out because then their time with their family is cut short because of the fact that your family is broken.

And so that's not fair, obviously. So I would encourage you set the percentage that you want it to be. My wife and I do rotating holidays to where, you know, one year is my, uh, my side of the family. One year it's her side of the family and on my side of the family, we'll, you know, trade off between spending time with dad and spending time with mom.

And so I, I definitely encourage you to find that balance for you as well. And don't feel bad about, you know, dedicating that time to the intact family. There's nothing wrong with that. Like I mentioned here, a few questions that you can use to create your plan. And you can, again, if you wanna pause this right now, get out a pen and paper or just pull up the notes app on your phone to start writing down the answers to these questions.

The first question is, when will you spend time with each parent, if that's possible. The second who can you ask to be your swim buddy? Third, what three things should you do to take care of yourself? Four. What healthy distractions can you use in intense situations? Five. What predictable circumstances will come up and what can you say or do in them?

Six. What expectations and boundaries need to be set? Seven. If you can't be with your family, what can you do to experience some sort of community instead of your family? Eight. When and how will you communicate the plan? Nine. What can you say to lead with your intention and 10? What's your plan to respond if mom or dad get.

You can rewind to listen to those again if you want to, or you can just go to the show notes to get those questions. You could even copy them and paste them into your notes app and then just write the responses, uh, underneath them. And then you have your plan. It's just a matter of communicating that plan again and executing on that plan.

Again, the three steps are make the plan, communicate the plan, and then execute the plan. And again, you can get those questions@restoredministry.com slash 83 or just click on the link, uh, in the show notes to get those questions. Alrighty. So that wraps up the logistical side of the holidays. With that, let's turn to the emotional side.

Here's my conversation with former trauma therapists, Margaret Vasquez.

So Margaret, as we both know, coming from broken families ourselves, this could really be a difficult time of the year. The holidays can be a difficult time of the year to navigate for so many reasons, especially on an emotional level. There's just a lot of emotions that come up that can be difficult to deal with, that we might not have to deal with the rest of the year.

And so I'm excited to talk with you about, you know, kind of mastering our emotions in one sense, or maybe a better way of saying is become, you know, grow and self mastery of the actions that we take when we feel certain emotions. Maybe that's a better way to say it, but Yeah. I'm curious, do you have personal experience kinda navigating this?

Sure. Yeah. Thanks Joey. Yeah, it's such an important topic, right? And it's not, it's an important topic because if we pay some attention to it, it doesn't. It can really be helpful. It really can. And yeah, I have personal experience because, um, you know, coming from a difficult home situation and that was, that's something that.

I'm not gonna lie, like even to this day still something that I know doesn't look the same in my life, right? My Facebook pictures on holidays don't look the same as other people's Facebook pictures. What? At holidays, right? I mean, just to put it in real practical kind of stuff, You know, my Instagram pictures don't look the same.

And yet giving some thought to that ahead of time helps me in my, in my gut to feel better about that. I think for so many years, cause it was a difficult topic for myself, If something's difficult, it's like, okay, just pushing it outta my head. Don't think about it. Don't think about it. And then, but, but then it calms, you know, the calendar page is like, do get torn off, regardless of if you're thinking about it or not.

And so suddenly being there like Thanksgiving, Christmas, and like, Oh, I didn't think this through, and not thinking about it, didn't keep it away. And so then kind of the last minute either. Feeling like woefully unprepared or also at other times being invited to people's homes for holidays. I remember early days of that back when I was a g, even just a freshman in college and taking that as like, I'm just a charity case, right?

Mm-hmm. . And so then not even letting myself receive from people and yet, like in, in later years coming to understand that, that it was like a joy for them, like bright, Like they had so much joy, they just wanted to, to share. And it wasn't all like, you know, seeing me as like pathetic and so, so something that I needed to, like, protect myself from.

So I guess that's one of the things I, I learned along the way. But then also just the, the planning component and kind of thinking out ahead of time, like mm-hmm. what's gonna help me feel the most prepared and kind of in a lot of ways, like the most emotionally safe, you know, kind of going into. Whether it Thanksgiving or Christmas or whatever the holiday might be, What do, what do I need in order to be able to enjoy that or at least be able to, to get through it in a healthy way?

Yeah, and that's exactly what we wanna talk about in the segment of the show. And I can totally relate on so many levels with you. And I think all of us feel that resistance. If there's tension and drama in our family and the holidays just make us feel anxious or depressed or triggered in one way or another.

Angry honestly, or even embarrassed. Like that's something a lot of people have confided in me and that's like kind of embarrassing, like you alluded to this time of year. We're like, yeah, everyone else seems to have these families that are like these Hallmark style families and we're just like trying to survive right through, right through all of this.

And you know, some years are better. I'm sure some years are worse, but it certainly can be challenging when you come from a, a broken family to, to navigate all this, both on the logistical side as we've touched on, but also on the emotional side, which is why I'm really excited to talk with you.

Psychologists are around this term, the dysregulation. Mm-hmm. , I'm curious if you'd break that down a little bit. Cause that's what hap what happens to me a lot of times when I'm interacting with family, there's kind of tense situations. I feel dysregulated. So would you explain a little bit in simple terms for the common people like me, , to, to really understand like, what, what, what do we mean?

I say dysregulation, I simplify it for myself down to I feel like the emotions have me rather than I have the emotions. Right? And, and part of it can look like, or, or can feel like I actually even feel that physically as well, right? Like I feel my blood pressure, feel my pulse beating harder and my blood pressure maybe going up or feel my muscles tensing or my jaw clenching.

Maybe I'm waking up more with like, I'm, you've been like clenching my teeth during the night or my stomach. Tight or like those kind of things. You know, those kind of physical signals of there's stress going on here, whether I'm realizing it or not, but in the real time of being dysregulated, I think a lot of times it has physiological components that when the emotion feels like, like it has us rather than we are having a particular emotion.

No, that I love. That's a great way to put it. I love that you said that, and I can relate, you know, it kind of feels like you're in fight or flight mode. Is that the right way to think about it? Yeah, fight or flights probably a good way to look at it. Or just kind of like a wash, do you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm. like a wash and this emotion, like I'm like, I'm out to sea and I just being like tossed madly and like hard to even like think logically. Like that'd probably be a pretty good sign that, that the emotional part of my brain is like in high gear and so I'm not doing my. Problem solving. Just another, another reason to plan ahead , right?

Yeah. Yeah. And going back to that like resistance component where we don't want to think ahead to this, I didn't really finish my thought before, I apologize. It's if we kind of push ourselves through that in gentle ways, like starting small, break it down to small pieces and do that, there can be this great benefit of then yeah, coming, going into it prepared and then actually, you know, successfully navigating the challenges that come up or maybe needing to avoid them this year or something like that.

You know, depending on the situation or even perhaps enjoying the holiday season. Again, those can be some of the big benefits if we just kind of push ourselves to think ahead, to do the planning and to prepare like on an emotional level as well as a logistical level to, to handle all of this. I found that if you I push through that resistance and do this legwork, then it turns out better in the end, even though it's not very pleasant, maybe in the very beginning.

Yeah. And just on a real practical side of that, one of the things that I don't know for me personally, but uh, you know, whoever might wanna give this a try, I give myself permission to celebrate once the holiday is over. Right. So it doesn't just feel like I got robbed of being able to celebrate because I didn't have a perfect family situation and the whole rest of, you know, civilized society got to celebrate this holiday and, you know, so somehow just kind of like, you know, I'm outta luck, but instead like, okay, once it feels like.

Made it through, and whether it's the next day or the next weekend or whatever, like giving myself permission to celebrate in whatever, you know, usually it'd be like, have whatever I want to eat, you know, or go out to eat or something like that. So it's always about, I like that . Yeah. I'll just I love that kind of a reward for yourself at the end.

And I, I, I've learned that too, even with motivating yourself for anything in life, it's helpful to put it like a reward in front of you. Like, Okay, when I do this, well, I get that reward, but I don't get it yet. And so I, I like that idea. That's a great one. Yeah. I think for, for myself, God takes away some of the like shame or embarrassment that like, somehow I don't get to celebrate.

It's like, no, my celebration just comes at a different time. Nice. I like that in the intensity of these emotions, um, in these situations where we find ourselves, it's hard to, like you said, we feel like we're kinda washed the way at sea being tossed around. What are emotions trying to tell us? I always just look at it like emotions or information and, and I think if we look at it like that, then, then emotions don't have to be big and scary.

So I, I'll tend to look at it like if I'm having an emotion of anger, to me anger is usually about somebody's crossed a boundary of mine or if somebody I really care about, that's, that's when I tend to get angry. And I oftentimes see that and with people I. Or fear. If there's a sense of fear, then that's usually emotions telling us there's something here to be cautious about, which I think a lot of times is what's going on ahead where they have that dread, you know, would fall into that same category as the holidays approach.

Okay. There's something to be cautious about. There's some, Don't be cautious then about going into this situation unprepared without giving it some forethought or, you know, if I'm, Anxiety to me usually indicates that, that I'm getting into like self-reliance. I'm relying on myself instead of, instead of the Lord, instead of resources instead of other people who are, who really are support to me.

You know, and that kind of thing. My, my vision has narrowed down to every man for himself, you know, and I'm on my own kind of thing. So if we look at emotions as information, then they don't have to be scary because then they're. , there's still an, an eye of me that is able to pay attention to that information and respond to it in a practical and logical and compassionate way instead of suddenly like, I am that emotion.

Mm. That makes so much sense. And one thing I was thinking of in the past that I've had to deal with is I don't really know why I'm feeling the way that I'm feeling. And that could be difficult cuz it's like, man, I don't wanna be feeling this way. It's kind of tending, it's causing, not causing me. I don't wanna say that, but it's, uh, maybe triggering me to act in a certain way.

Like ultimately I'm the one in charge of my actions. But it might be, you know, I might be more inclined to do this or say that. Any advice for people who are like, well, well I guess on one end I don't know what I'm feeling. Sure. And on the other end, like, I don't know why I'm feeling. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I'd say always the, the first thing to go to is to like, to like regard that emotional part of yourself from a place of compassion.

And then, and the really cool thing, what that's gonna do is naturally help you to kind of zoom out from feeling that feeling so intensely that you, that you can't even, like, you know, kind of begin to wrap your head around it. And then once you kind of zoom out and are in that stance of compassion, then I always say like, our, our self talk, just like our talk with each other.

When, when somebody else is in a difficult emotional spot and they're sharing with us, if the order of our self-talk is to first validate the emotion, right? That doesn't mean necessarily agreeing with it or giving it like all the, you know, a hundred percent. This is the gospel truth like, but it's just, it makes sense that this part of me would feel that way.

That's what validating looks like, right? So validating the emotion, expressing compassion to myself and my own soul talk, and then speaking the truth. So then if there's something else, some other angle to kind of like illuminate or some other factor or something to weigh in, because emotions are information, but they're only one source of information.

So that's important to remember. So if there's other information I need to kind of factor in that from, from what we, what I would say is like the eye of me , that that is not that emotion, but responding to that emotion. Then I can weigh it in after I've validated the emotion and express compassion. But if we jump right to well, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah in our own self talk, then I think we tend to just get ourselves tied to knots and, and our emotions just tend to kind of like go underground, you know?

Yeah, no, I could see that. I remember end of high school, beginning of college, there was a period where I just felt very anxious and depressed at different times. And it was, at the time, I didn't have the language to identify what I was feeling. And so I'm curious there, um, aside from using this three point framework, is there anything we could do like better identify, like, Oh, I'm feeling this at this time, or is that just something that we have to learn through experience and there's no real way of kind of identifying what we're feeling?

Cause I know certain people are very in tune with their emotions. They know like, Oh, I'm upset, or, or not upsets too generic, but I'm angry about this. Or, you know, I feel violated or whatever. But others have a harder time identifying like what they're feeling. And then, like I mentioned, why they're feeling it too can be tricky.

Yeah, it's true. You know, what comes to mind? I don't know if there's a way, if, if you have a way to, to put this up or else, you know, um, I'll share this PDF with you as a pdf, but, or else people can look it up online. I'm sure there's, I'm sure you can find them, but I a in my office, I have a vocabulary of emotions and it's pretty cool.

Cause down the side it has like mild, moderate, strong. And then across the top it has, you know, happy, sad, scared, worried, anxious, has a lot of different, you know, maybe six or seven different emotions across the top. And so I think that can even be like, when I'm working with somebody in my office and they're having a hard time putting an emotion on something we're working on, they'll look through this vocabulary of emotions and oftentimes it seems like it's helpful.

I like that. So that's just like super practical. Yeah, no, let's put that in the show notes. So thank you for mentioning that and I think that will be really helpful as well. Um, moving on. So when we do feel that way, when we do feel dysregulated or upset, um, you know, kind of out of balance, like, like we were talking about, what, what are some healthy things we can do to deal with those emotions?

Cause I know what I see a lot is the temptation is always to do unhealthy things, to cope in unhealthy ways, what that looks like. A lot of different things for different people, but for some people it looks like isolating themselves. For other people it looks like eating too much for other people, it's drinking too much.

For other people, it's pornography. Like it runs the gamut. But I'm curious, what are some things that we can do that are healthy, that calm us, that help us deal with our emotions as opposed to these unhealthy ways of. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Great question. So, so again, I'm gonna keep going back to planning, right?

But I'd say consider who you are, right? So whoever who are listeners, right? Consider who you are as an individual and what healthy looks like to you. So, um, like what helps you to get in a good place emotionally and stay in a good place. And, and then what also helps to return you to a place of calm. So for one person, it might be, it might be isolating, might just need like a time out from the chaos for somebody else that might, might be needing to have somebody you already planned ahead of time that you're gonna like, touch base with at a couple, two or three times throughout the day.

Just to be like, Hey, how's it going? You know, just say you have that sense of connection, right? You know, I'm big. With another person who, who understands who, who you feel like really understands the situation. And it doesn't mean that you have to have an extended conversation with them that takes them necessarily away from their family situation if they're at a different location.

But you just know that you, you kind of feel tethered right to, to another human being who gets it, somebody else with skin on. So for some people it might look like isolating. For some people it might look like touching base, you know, even a, even a text, just like somebody willing to reach out and say like, Hey, hanging in there.

Like, you know, that kind of thing. I think walking is always a great thing. Anything that's bilateral stimulation, not something, we tend to do it big holidays. Usually it's, it's eat a lot and then sit and watch football, right? isn't that kinda the American way? But honestly like anytime we're engaging both sides of our body, we're engaging both sides of our brain.

Which means it's, it kind of helps to, to kind of calm the right hemisphere of the brain because the, the left side's, the logical side, really big strokes. So yeah. So anytime we're, you know, whether it's biking or going for a walk or yeah. Whatever that looks like for anybody, different situations. But anytime we're doing something like that, even just planning in like a short bit of that can be really helpful.

So I'd say really looking ahead of time, like for me, working out is a really important thing, and honestly, if I start the day working out as opposed to using it as a response, that's even better for me. There's something about working out in the morning that feels like I'm, I'm really taking care of myself.

Like I'm really doing what I need to do in order to feel healthy and to feel like I'm going into the day with some sort of like self mastery, you know, kind of thing. Mm-hmm. , like, I'm really like, you know, kicking ass and taking names , so to speak. Right. So, yeah. So looking at you as a person and like what helps you feel kind of charged up that, that you're like, on your game when you're going into a situation?

No, I like that. And a few for me friends, like spending time with good friends, kinda like you mentioned mm-hmm. . Um, but even like, totally disconnected from talking about kinda what I'm going through. If I just spend like quality time with friends who are having like deep conversations or sharing a drink or something like that, that gives me life and helps me kind of be more of a master of my actions regardless of how I'm feeling.

That's one of them for me. Sports are another one for me. Like if I go play volleyball or hockey or something like that, it's uh, it's really helpful. It gives me life and again, makes it easier to kind of put up with and navigate some of these difficult emotions. A few other ones, uh, movies. I love stories.

I love good movies. Um, music and then like you said, working out as well, which kind of goes along with the sports stuff on the working out point. Just wanna hide this for our listeners. You. Might not be the type of person who works out a ton or works out intensely. And that's okay. The main thing here is movement.

Like do something like if you haven't done a pushup in like five years or maybe never, don't try to go do pushups. Like you could try if you want to , but just like go for a walk, right? Go for a bike ride. Like do something that, um, you're moving your body. You're not sitting on your couch, on your phone all the time, but it just gives you some sort of movement.

So that's one tip, uh, for you guys. But I love all these tips. Are there any specific tips in kind of emergency situations? So maybe you're in the midst of a really tense situation with mom and dad or a really dramatic situation. Like I've been in situations where like the police are involved with my family in the past and that those can be really tough situations.

You could feel all sorts of things. So any like tip one or two tips, uh, for in the midst of those situations, how to deal with your emotion? So, so there's something in counseling that's called grounding. And so grounding is getting us back essentially to like the here and now. And so anytime you stimulate the five senses, um, it can get you back to that spot.

So like, and I'd say doing it with intention, right? So a lot of the stuff we can tend to do incidentally, right? Like if somebody can be nervous and so they're kind of like playing with their keys, like jingling their keys, or if they're giving a talk, they're like, they might be kind of like fiddling with the edge of the page that they have their notes on or something like that.

But if we know what it's doing and we do it intentionally, it can increase that sense of autonomy and self-efficacy, right? Like that, that I'm the actor in my world and that I can be effective on myself and what I'm doing. And so, so it might be like getting a super cold bottle of water. And just like holding that and maybe even holding it against the skin on the, like the inside of your wrist, you know, like that skin can be like more sensitive or, you know, even up against your cheek, you know, you might wanna do something like that.

Or sucking on a mint, you know, or chewing gum or something. Again, like those, you know, stimulating like sense of, sense of touch, a sense of taste. Using those things to like intentionally bring you back to the here and now instead of the there and then of some past painful, full memory that might be coming to mind that might be like, you know, kind of triggered by the given situation or some anxiety about the future.

Mm-hmm. . Right? So using those things intentionally can bring us back. And I'd say if you're in the, the heat of a moment, like right there and you, you don't have any access to things like that, know that like you can take a step back. Like you can excuse yourself and go for a walk. Or even if you can't, if the weather is totally like terrible and you can't do that.

Excuse yourself and go to the bathroom, you know what I mean? Like do whatever you need to do to take a time out. And just knowing that you have the ability to do that I think can like really go a long way to helping ourselves have that, that sense of safety that can keep us from, from feeling so trapped in the situation.

And again, having like an emergency plan ahead of time. Again, it's kinda like a parachute, right? You don't wanna have to use it, but you're glad it's there in case . Yeah, No, I like that. That makes so much sense. And it's almost like physically removing yourself can give you that emotional break, which I love if I understand that.

Right. And then also you mentioned something about sparkling water, it can actually be calming on like a lymphatic level, right? Like it could actually calm your nerves, right? Yeah. So. So Dr. Friend of mine, chiropractor, nutritionist guy, said the bo, the place in the body that releases the second highest amount of serotonin is actually the back of the throat.

Now, serotonin is one of the feel good hormones, and it's usually associated with a sense of importance. So like when, when we graduate, you know, we get our diploma or when we get our, uh, you know, when it's sports banquet and you get your award and that kind of thing, and that, that kind of, that sense of pride, that sense of importance.

So you can access that same hormone by sipping on sparkling water or really any, anything that's carbonated. You just don't wanna be drinking a bunch of really sugary drinks and like sending your blood sugar all over the place. So if you're drinking like sparkling water or, um, club soda or something like that and, and sipping on it, right?

So you have that kind of like continual stimulation of the back of the throat. It's the, the fizzy feeling, right? The carbonation causes that serotonin to be released. There's another thing with like endorphins. So, um, endorphins is another feel good hormone, and that's actually stimulated by pushing past our physical limits, which we talked about that a little bit with exercise or, or what have you.

But also dark chocolate releases. Endorphins causes release of endorphins. So it's like the high quality stuff. Like I don't, I don't think A Three Musketeers is gonna do it if you get some like higher, higher percentage of kacal or whatever in it, but it causes a release of Endor. So have like a dark chocolate bar and some sparkling water

You'll be happy person. . There you go. So you're basically saying all you need to navigate the holidays is chocolate. That's, that's pretty much it. I mean I think a lot of women are life actually. . Yeah. And guys too. I mean that sounds amazing to me. But I know, I know my wife would appreciate that she loves star chocolate.

Yeah, no, great tips. And I love how practical they are. And just closing out the show, is there anything we can do to prevent ourselves from becoming dysregulated, aside from the planning that we've mentioned a few times? And if not, you know, if we can't prevent that, how can we at least become regulated again more quickly to where we feel that sense of like balance emotionally?

Yeah. So honestly I would just, I would. Kind of summing up, I guess, if you will, the things we've talked about. So having the plan ahead of time not only provides you with the information, but it provides you with a sense of preparedness. And so it kind of like reiterates to your own consciousness that there is an eye of you that's outside of the emotions, right?

Like there's a Joey and there's a Margaret, that that still remains like, regardless of if I, if I get really fearful or if I get really angry or whatever. And from that place, you're planning. So, so it, it kind of like grows your, what we would call true self, right? It kind of like grows that like, Oh, I can do this and I can take care of this and I already have this planned for.

And then just keeping like, you know, I mentioned the grounding techniques, like maybe even like going into whatever the place is. You know, whether it's a friend for or, or a family for holiday, but throw some mints in your pocket. Throw some come in your, in your pocket, you know? Mm-hmm. , even plan those things out a little bit ahead of time.

And then having a person on the other end who's gonna be there to, to, you know, answer your text or to get together, like you said, even doesn't mean if we spend time with family that we have to spend the entire day. So maybe there's, maybe keep something at some point in the day that you have to look forward to, to kind of counterbalance and, and if you don't have people or a place to do that with, like, at least planning in something that's fun for you.

Like you had mentioned like movies. And then, and then finally like, just kind of going back to the beginning, like giving yourself permission to celebrate, having gotten through the holiday once you're through, through the holiday, because it is difficult. And so I think, um, giving ourselves permission to celebrate that is, Is important.

I think it acknowledges the difficulty of what we've gone through as opposed to like, you know, feeling like, oh, well somehow this is just the package deal of being me, but like kind of, it's kind of the attaboy or at a girl for like having gotten through something that like maybe not everybody has to get through and kind of celebrating that as an achievement instead of just kind of enduring it as part of my lot in life.

Mm-hmm. . Okay. No, that makes so much sense. Thank you so much Margaret. Appreciate your time. And just in closing, any tips or encouragement that you'd give on Yeah, just overall how to. Take care of yourself during this time of year? Anything addition, additional that you would add into what we've already talked about?

Yeah, I would definitely add that, you know, even as you and I have shared right, that, that this is something that's part of our history and maybe, um, maybe part of current situation and that there are other people who are in that same category, that it doesn't say something. I guess what I'm trying to say is like, it doesn't say something about you as a person.

There's not some like failure. You're not less than anybody. There should, There's no shame that goes along with that. It's a, it's a set of circumstances that, that aren't who you are. There's something that you're enduring and. I would just really wanna like alleviate that for people because there's no, there's no real like, truth in that and like caring.

This is like somehow I'm less than other people. I'm, you know, I guess maybe kind of along those same notes or the, that same line, like maybe if, if you can foresee it being difficult for you, like, That you're in a lot different boat maybe than some people on during the holidays. Maybe like staying off of social media for the day might be a good thing, so you're not looking at everybody else's posts of how different their family situation might be from years.

Just thinking that might be a good plan

if you've wanted to do counseling or coaching, but maybe you've struggled to find someone to work with. We can actually help Margaret, who you heard in this episode actually. Coaching, which is similar, a little bit different than counseling. Now, first thing you should know is Margaret is extremely competent.

I've actually personally gone to her, uh, as a therapist and she's been so, so helpful. She's been the best therapist I've ever gone to. I've been to a bunch. And not to say the others were bad, she was just the best. She's so good at what she does and like I had mentioned, she's has over 16 years of experience as a trauma therapist, and she recently made the pivot from counseling into coaching.

And so she's able to work with a lot more people. There's certain things she can't do, um, but she's still able to help in tremendous ways and she offers that service virtually, uh, wherever you're at through, you know, phone calls or Zoom meetings and her pricing by the. Is very reasonable. I've never seen anything like it.

And so you definitely wanna check this out. If you'd like to work with her, it's really easy to do. So just go to her website. It's called Sacred Heart healing ministries.com. And if you don't remember that, that's okay. We'll put the link in the show notes, just click on that link. Uh, that's the first step.

Second step is. Uh, if you see a popup for coaching slash consulting, just click schedule session. And if you don't see that popup, then just go to services, the services menu on that page and then click Coaching and consulting. And I apologize if at some point in the future this changes and it looks a little bit different.

And then the final step is just fill out the assessment form. It takes, uh, you know, somewhere around five minutes and then submit it, and then Margaret or her team will reach out to you to schedule your first session. Again, that's sacred Heart healing. ministries.com or just click on the link, uh, in the description or in the show notes.

And again, I highly recommend working with Margaret. And if nothing else, I would say is, you know, if you've struggled to find a good counselor coach, give Margaret a shot. Just do the initial, uh, session. Do the initial, you know, first do the intake, and then if you know you get approved to work with her, then go ahead and do that initial session.

Just see how it goes. It's a great investment for you to just try it out. And if that goes well and you continue working with her, I'm, I'm so confident that you're gonna see some great results in your life. So I couldn't recommend it more. Again, click on the link in the show notes if you wanna work with Margaret Vasquez.

If you want more content on this topic, you can check out these episodes. Episode four seven, Tips to Navigate The Holidays for Children of Divorce, Episode 32, How to Navigate the Holidays, Advice from 11 Children of Divorce, and then episode 59 from a Broken Family. Nine Tips to Navigate the Holidays, and as mentioned, feel free to join our online community@restoredministry.com slash community, or just click on the link in the show notes.

Thank you so much for listening. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, especially during the holiday season, please share this podcast with them. And always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

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#082: You Deserve Better than a Broken Life and Relationships | Kailash Duraiswami

Imagine you have all the success, pleasure, money, and excitement you could want. But instead of being happy, you feel unhappy and empty. What would you do?

Imagine you have all the success, pleasure, money, and excitement you could want. But instead of being happy, you feel unhappy and empty. What would you do?

That was the story of our guest today. The wounds from his broken family were at the core of his need to live a life of extreme pleasure, excitement, and ultimately, unhappiness. But that all began to change when the 2016 US presidential election caused him to question everything. In time, he went from partying with billionaire Silicon Valley entrepreneurs to living a very different life.

In this episode, you’ll hear his story and also:

  • How he didn’t even recognize that he was trying to fill an endless hole

  • How the lack of an example in how to form healthy relationships inhibited is ability to do so and caused a lot of turmoil in his relationships

  • How transforming himself led him to his beautiful soon-to-be bride and authentic happiness

Get the free chapters or buy the book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce


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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Imagine you have everything that you think will make you happy, success, pleasure, money, exciting experiences, all the things that our culture says will make you happy, but it doesn't make you happy. In fact, you just feel unhappy and empty. What would you do? That was the story of my guest today. The wounds from his broken family were at the core of his need to live a life of extreme pleasure, excitement, and ultimately unhappiness.

But that all began to change. Surprisingly, after the 2016 US Presidential election. It made him question everything. And in time he went from literally partying with billionaires, Silicon Valley entrepreneurs to living a very different lifestyle. And his story is just amazing. In this episode, you'll hear his story and how when his dad left when he was a teenager, he was treated like an adult without any boundaries, which led to a lot of problems and bad habits in his life.

He shares what was the ultimate pleasure that he sought. He talks about how he didn't even recognize that he was trying to fill an endless hole inside of him. He talks about how a lack of an example on how to form healthy relationships really hurt his ability to do so as an adult and even caused him a lot of turmoil in his relationships.

And finally, he talks about how his life totally turned around and how he found his beautiful fiance who will soon be his bride, and how his life is so much better today, how he is so much happier today than he was in the past. Really amazing story. Lots of great content, so keep listening.

Welcome to The Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents'. Separation or broken marriage so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode a D two, and my guest today is Kla Dewa. Kla is a technology entrepreneur most recently in the artificial intelligence space as the founder of Pen Tenix.

Pen. Tenix is an artificial intelligence platform that automates manual data entry for financial services companies through computer vision. Pen Tenix was acquired by financial services software provider or advisor solutions and Spring 2021. Kalos is an adult convert to the Catholic church and is most interested in the connection between Catholic principles and entrepreneurship in the world of software startup.

His new startup fee day is taking on big tech by offering Catholic alternatives in the consumer technology space. But without any further ado, here's my conversation with my friend Kla

Kash. So good to have you here. Thanks so much for being on the show. Thank you for having me. I'm fascinated by your story. I know we're just getting to know each other, but you've told me a little bit so far and so I'm excited to dive in and starting out. I'd like to go back in time and I, I'm curious, how old were you when things at home, uh, became dysfunctional and what exactly happened there?

Yeah, it's tough to really point to any memory of my childhood or I would say things. Were really positive. My parents immigrated from a different country and you know, a lot of, a lot of families would live in these metropolitan areas where you'd be surrounded with a lot of people who knew your language, knew your, your family background.

But yeah, just due to different career needs, my family moved to a very small town in Florida and so there wasn't that much of a cultural infrastructure that my father in particular who was used to, and that was very difficult for them right from the beginning. So yeah, I would say that there was really, any of my earliest memories would be conflict between my parents and for a variety of reasons.

Maybe financial, maybe based on friends or family interactions. There would be a lot of of challenges. That would come up. I, I have very few, you know, I talked to my sister about this. I have very few memories of growing up, which are positive, and I, I thought that was normal. I mean, I didn't think anything of it.

Yeah. I thought that's just how it is for me. I never thought about it. And then I would talk to my sister about that later as we became adults and she would say, You know, that's not, that isn't really normal. Mm-hmm. , you know, normally you would have positive memories, but the truth for me is, yeah, there are, there are some, but the, the challenges both within our family environment and challenges in, in my own life greatly outweigh functional memories.

So I would say it was as far back as I could remember, I would say it was dysfunctional. Okay. That makes sense. And I can, uh, relate to a lot of that. There were some good memories early on, but it seems like when things become dysfunctional in a family, when things start to fall apart, The bad memories certainly take over, and that's a trend I've seen a lot in doing these interviews that unfortunately, you know, there's very few good memories to go back to.

Was there any point where your parents separated or anything like that? Um, and as much as you're comfortable sharing what happened there? Yeah. Uh, there was a period of time where they, they didn't live together. And, you know, I came on this, this podcast to talk about myself and to talk about the changes that I've been able to undergo.

And I think that it is important to talk about the background and I'm happy to answer these questions. It's not something that I want to shy away from. Yeah. But I'll be very open about it. But really with the hope that it points to a great present and yes, my, my family, I remember when I was a. I, I think in middle school, maybe even earlier, I asked my father, they were arguing about something and I said, Do you even love mom?

I asked him, Do you, do you even love her? And he laughed and they, they, I don't know if that question ever came into their mind, but obviously even very young, it came into my mind. And then as I grew older in high school, they decided, he decided that my mom decided, I know that there was not, they were going to live separately.

Mm-hmm. . And, uh, my father, he, he went for a drive with me and they, we were going to a, uh, wedding for a cousin, which was out of state. And then he said, When we come back, I'll be moving out. And my sister had actually already told me just days before probably. So I, it wasn't, that actually wasn't a surprise to hear.

And he also was kind of ashamed to admit that he was going to be moving in with. Another woman, which was very, and I mean he was very ashamed of that, but he, that was part of his mechanism to make this decision. Mm-hmm. and, um, that they, that was when I was just becoming of driving age. And I remember being very detached from this at the time.

And he routinely after that, would actually want to come back. And I always said no, because I wanted the freedom because I had no discipl. Yeah, when he wasn't there, he, he was someone who would always try to investigate what I was doing, and he didn't give me personal space, which is not all bad, you know, If you're young, you need boundaries.

But yeah, because my mom would work or he, you know, certainly when he was not there, I, my made my own boundaries and that I, I would use that to, as we know, as Catholics, I would indulge in my fleshly desires for sure, as a high school student. And that was because I had no boundaries. So he regretted it, but for 10, some, almost 10 years, they, they were separated and he wasn't with that person the entire time because she was, she became aware that he was not gonna leave my mother, actually.

Wow. He wouldn't, he couldn't move himself to actually, Make that final decision. That's actually beautiful. Yeah. They, their, their attention to tradition and some, some form of morality allowed them to get through that actually. But they did, It was a very tough environment. They didn't know how to, to, to deal with their conflicts and then it led to this event.

Okay. That makes sense. Thanks for sharing all that. In No way, Of course. Are we trying to shed a bed light in your parents? I know we've talked separately about it's important to be honest about what we've been through, um, and then sharing to whatever levels, you know, of comfort. So thank you. And I think it, it is helpful what you said it's really helpful about how.

We're not gonna say in like, this dark part of your story, we're gonna get to the lighter parts and the, the happier endings. And so, uh, I wanna transition to that shortly, but first you, you mentioned a little bit of how you had reacted to the dysfunction at home to whatever level you're comfortable sharing.

What did that look like? Yeah, this I'm very comfortable with. Cool. Because these are my decisions. Yeah. And I, it's so, it's so obvious to me and it's so, um, It's pedestrian in a way, what I did. But I would, I had to be the most popular kid in school and I was the pre the homecoming king, you know, be in homecoming court many years and many years in a row in high school.

And I had all these friends and every social gathering, you know, all the partying I had to be there and you know, would have different girlfriends, different interactions like this. Breaking rules. Never did any homework, didn't adhere to anything. I didn't want to do a lot of impulsive actions and that, you know, like I said, I lived basically in an environment where my mother, she actually, she specifically would allow me to.

Be an adult in a way. That's kind of how she viewed it. Part of it was I had a strong will and she didn't, I don't think she realistically could have reigned me in mm-hmm. . But part of it is she wanted me to become an adult that was independent. Yeah. Which is not wrong, but I, so I simultaneously would have like the, I probably had the hardest schedule of any student in school because I would take like very high level math classes mm-hmm.

in the college nearby. But simultaneously, I didn't do any of the work and I would spend a huge amount of time partying. And it only, this is in high school and so it only really would take any kind of abatement or I, I retracted it only in very little ways. I was, you know, in the second SES semester of senior year mm-hmm.

and the kids I was hanging out with would be drinking excessively on a Tuesday. Yeah. Weekday. Yeah. And I would just be like, I can't do this anymore. And I actually was a, a gifted student, but I did very poorly on homework. I didn't do homework. I had no, like, discipline at all. Mm-hmm. . And no one encouraged me to do it.

There was, I remember my aunt once times came, she was visiting and I had a science experiment, due science project due the next day. And I started it that day. And her, her kids are so on point, they were like great students. My, that cousin went to Columbia University, Ivy League, like so well disciplined.

Mm-hmm. . And she was like shocked. She couldn't believe this. And I was like, This is it. Yeah. You know, I'm not gonna do this until the first, the day before. And so, but, but what hap, the reason I bring that up is I applied to colleges and I was denied from every college I applied to, and I was wait listed at the one that I went to eventually, and that, that even humiliated me very badly.

Okay. And that was the beginning of a change for me in college where I actually became very diligent because I responded to this, it wounded me badly, but I was very, very fortunate that I was actually admitted to a school from the wait list. And, but like I said, that gave me kind of a, a bump or a, a source of energy for the many years of college where I actually had great, good habits.

I was, I re I didn't drink and I, I said no to these things and I was very diligent, which was good. And, but, That's the kind of interim, because then after I graduated college, I moved to Silicon Valley and I was a software engineer and that's when things really went outta control. Yeah. Because that's when I was starting to make a lot of money and I had much more agency in.

My control over my day. Yeah. Control over my friends. And that's where a lot of those habits and indulgence, indulgent behavior from high school was like 10 Xed. Yeah. And that's where I had a lot of trouble with. Same thing. A lot of drinking and partying, hard drugs, club drugs, music festivals. I mean, I did everything crazy.

You can possibly imagine. Not many people know about this, but I have tattoos all over my body. You would never believe that. I didn't know that. Yeah, you would never believe that. Yeah. If you knew me, no one could believe that. But I made tons of these irreparable mistakes. Yeah. And I, same thing, just the ultimate pleasure I sought was the company of women.

Yeah. Ultimate, I mean that with drugs big time. I just, I had to pursue that. I was compelled to pursue that compulsively. I couldn't say no. Yeah, there was, and this is what my existence was. And again, professionally things were okay. They, they were great by most metrics. Not to my standard of ambition, but they were very good.

I could support myself in San Francisco, very high rent, no issue. I had a great career as a software engineer, but that fueled crazy lifestyle. I'm telling you like the most insane experiences you can imagine in Vegas, the most, you know, partying with literally Silicon Valley billionaires. I mean, I've done that.

I've been there in, in immense pursuit of self-gratification through the pleasure of what we feel in this world. Mm-hmm. , and that all pointed to a lack of morality. And it pointed to a wound that I had that I, I couldn't. I needed to make myself feel good or this is what I should be doing. This is what successful people do.

This is what the cool kids are doing. You know, all these things are so reverberating in my head and I know because I had friends that I grew up with in the same community who are from the same background as I did, who had the same professional life, so to, you know, essentially. And they didn't do those things like they could refuse.

I know people I grew up with never drink, you know, very similar family background, didn't drink, didn't do these things. Mm-hmm. . And they could live in a stable way. I could not, like, I could not live in a stable way. Mm-hmm. whatever weekend it was. It wasn't just that I had to go to the bar with the friends, it was like, no, we.

I mean, I don't even know the legality of it, but basically do a bunch of illicit drugs. Yeah. And there was a lot of stuff that I had to, I was compelled to do and I think it points to the wounds of my childhood for sure. Yeah. It was the pain that I felt, the lack of stability, the lack of identity, and I thought very much, and I was, I had the agency very much to, to solve this problem through pleasure.

Mm-hmm. essentially. And that's, that's where I was when I really got to rock bottom, which was when I, I lived with someone and we were in a relationship and we, we. In college and we would do drugs and we'd party. And she was in a very wounded state and I was in a very wounded state and we were wanted to be together.

Yeah. Forever. And, you know, we committed to each other and blah, blah, blah. And it was, it was terrible. Yeah. I mean that, that's sore and bad combination. Yeah. It was just a, a nexus of, and she's doing great now, by the way. God bless her. I'm actually very happy that she got through it as well. But we would, we, we had a friendship based on partying and, and doing drugs and then we had a relationship based on it.

And it was, it was not, uh, it was a recipe for a disaster. We can put it mildly like that. And that's what, that's where I was. Wow. So much there to dive into. I'm curious, what were you looking for in all that? You alluded to it, but I wanna go deeper into that because I think a lot of people find themselves in a similar spot, even if they're not partying with billionaire Silicon Valley entrepreneurs.

Uh, they find themselves in a similar spot where they're seeking escapes, where they're trying to, they're looking for something. I'll leave it at that. What were you looking for in particular? Yeah, it, I think there's two sides of it. One is, at the time if you had asked me, I don't know what I would've said.

Wow. Okay. Yeah. Makes sense though. Like, honestly, I don't even know how I could have answered a direct question like that. Why are you doing this? I, I don't know. I don't know what I could have said at that time. Yeah. But looking back with the, with the lens that I have now, I think I had, I have an, an energy of ambition and an energy of productivity and an energy of, of output.

I'm a very output driven person. Yeah. And my measurement of that at the time was all social and all. Which is what is the highest social output I can create? What is the highest material output I can create? The answer to, to those two things socially was the craziest stories socially was, you know, the wildest time socially was the thing that I could brag about Vainly to others that I, that all the things that I just said, you know, the most exclusive v i p Vegas experience in a club that you can imagine telling these stories that would make people laugh.

You know, this is, this is what was interesting. That's what I wanted. And then when it came to the material pursuit, it was to be a successful technology company founder. Mm-hmm. , because that was the, to me, I, I still think this is true, it is the pinnacle achievement of a career in our generation is to do something innovative that is actually, um, validated by the marketplace.

A hundred percent. Yeah. So both of those things were, those were what truly fueled me. I, I don't think I could have actually recognized it. And it was very chaotic. And tho those, those pursuits are endless in a sense because it, it's just subject to your appetite. So some people might think the good time that they brag about with their friends is go to this new restaurant, go to this cool bar.

But for me it was, no, I have to be in the, you know, the, the nth degree. Yeah. The highest possible, like at a music festival. It wasn't just to go, but it would be to like be in the V i p v I P, you know, the most exclusive section. It was all about exclusivity and the, the vanity that I could have of being able to tell those stories.

Yeah. One thing I know about you in the little time I've known you, you don't do things halfway. So it's like if you were gonna be like this hedonistic like person, right? You're gonna go all the way down that path and it makes so much sense. I wanna get to like the happier side of the story, but another question on this point.

did you feel empty going through all that? It's, it's weird. I felt deep levels of anxiety. Okay. And deep levels of turmoil, you know, But I don't, I don't, I definitely did not recognize that I was trying to fill an endless pit. Hmm. Which I see now, you know, And Sy Augustin teaches us that as well, that our appetites are endless.

I definitely did not understand that, but I, I was not happy. I mean, I, you know, nearly overdosed on cocaine. I mean, there's just a lot of stuff like this where I was not happy when that was, you know, your heart's racing. I was not enjoying that, or these con, these experiences I would have with women. I would meet online or whatever.

Like, I wasn't happy in the tur mile of those relationships. I wasn't, I felt. A lot of pain in my relationships that I would have with them and break up, get back together again. Break up, break up all this stuff. I didn't enjoy it, but I don't, I wouldn't have understood, because I didn't understand even the, the idea of appetites, I didn't understand the idea of temptation, so it wouldn't have resonated with me that I was empty.

Mm-hmm. it, but it would, I do see that I was very unhappy. Okay. That makes a lot of sense. Shifting a little bit to relationships, you've talked about them already. Is there anything additional you would add in terms of how the background you came from, everything you went through, how did that all affect your dating relationships and now your e engagement, even if you wanna talk about that.

Sure. I think first I never received either by example or by instruction. The correct way to form a relationship or to treat someone in a romantic relationship period. Yeah. So that is a very difficult mountain to climb that I really, I didn't, I didn't climb it. And we can get to that later in the story.

Yeah. I, So I never received an instruction of how to date. Now, part, let's, let's be honest, part of it is my parents are not from this country and they had an arranged marriage. Okay. Yeah. So they were essentially arranged to be marriage before they met, arranged to be married before they met. Right. So they didn't date, they didn't know anything about it.

It's a very western American, perhaps European idea. Fair enough. So there's, there is no instruction that can happen in this and from that regard, but then the tough part also was that at home, due to the manner in which they related, I didn't have either an example as well. Right. I received no kind of moral.

Didactic teaching or interpersonal didactic teaching at all. Mm-hmm. . So the way that I pursued relationships is really given the metric that I just said, which was the maximum level of comfort or the maximum level of social proof that it would offer to me. Meaning being with someone who was the most beautiful, or having a story which was the most off the wall.

You know, basically I, I did, definitely did not, and could not look at being in a relationship by virtue of the person I was with. It was all about these ancillary aspects of who I was with, what they did for me, essentially what they did for my reputation, what they did for my stories, what they did for my life.

Yeah. And so that will bring in tons and tons of issues. And I was in many relationships where it's, it's two people using each other, to be honest, you know, I, I. As I've become more available to these experiences, I, I, I'm ashamed of how I treated them. Yeah. But then I actually can acknowledge, Wow. They treated me very poorly too.

Sure. Yeah. You know, so it was, my relationships were always two people using each other. And, and I can say that with confidence because, Like I'd, I would tell my fiance now, who's the polar opposite of all of this, by the way, people, That's beautiful. She's an angel. And I'm like, You wouldn't have been with me then literally, you would've never found me.

She might have been repulsed, she would've been at church. Like you wouldn't, you wouldn't have never seen or known me or anything. Yeah. Yeah. And so the reason I bring that up is the people I did see and I did know were wounded too. Right. And, and they were in these parties and in these events, and they were seeking pleasure.

We would do drugs together, you know, It was, that's what it was. Yeah. And everything was a building block of material pleasure or Zane reputation building. And so what, what is that relationship that I ha would have with someone? Basically nil. You know, the, the, the human aspect of it would become always just become painful.

Mm-hmm. , right. Try even trying to do the right thing or trying to establish some kind of exclusivity in the relationship, some protection, you know, monogamy would always be fraught with enormous amounts of pain and enormous amounts of challenge. Even just trying to approach that interiorly. Yeah. Trying to do it with them.

It would always be ridiculed and, and you would be, you would be so exposed. You share yourself, you share intimacy with someone and you can't acknowledge what that means. You cannot even approach that with them, you know, and you would, whether you sleep in the same bed or you pursue all of these, these activities, you.

You can't, you have, you are trying to give of yourself, but you can't allow yourself to. Yeah. And it's this huge turmoil. So to answer your question about what were the relationships like, they were, they were two people using each other. And I would use them for these, these purposes of material pleasure or vain reputation building.

And I want you, I would want things that were more mm-hmm. , because I think we are naturally ordered towards monogamy. We are naturally ordered towards a successful relationship. And I would try to apply my ambition to that, but that would be met with their own wounds. And then I would be met with my own wounds and it would be very, very chaotic.

And, and that relationship that I mentioned that really drove me to the ground, you know, it was the same thing. It was two people who, who wanted the recognition of what. Monogamy could be, yeah. And the value of that relationship. But we were un unable to look at the other person as a person. You know, it's funny, after I did all this, I went to a church event where they would say, This is how you get married.

And they would give this list. Okay. And it would be like, I remember the first one was like, Can you take care of the person you're gonna be with? Can you fulfill your responsibilities? You know, are you financially sound, blah, blah, blah. And the bottom would be like, Do you have fun together? And the next one would be like, Do they make you feel good?

And I remember looking at that, and I would be like, I literally inverted. The entire thing. Wow. Yep. Like it was all about the immediate gratification and a complete postponement or dereliction of what The role of a relation, you know, the foundation of being responsible. Yeah. And I don't, I honestly, I don't really think I saw much of that growing up.

Yeah. And I had no way to pattern that at all. Makes sense. And, and I will say, like I mentioned, my parents are, are back togethers again and they've really changed too. Wow. And I think if this is what it was, like some whatever years ago, things might have been different, but it wasn't Yeah. Like, it was not that I had nothing to go off for.

Yeah. You were, you had to play the hands, You were adults. And I totally get that. And it makes so much sense because on such a deep level, the example of our parents is programmed into us, right? Mm-hmm. , it's, and that code can be rewritten. I, I really believe that. I've seen it. I've seen people come from really dysfunctional, broken families.

And then they learn about love, they learn about relationships, they learn how to love often through a lot of pain and failure. Um, and then they build something really beautiful. They build a really beautiful marriage. And that's where I see you on that path, which is amazing. But it makes so much sense that that example of how to build love, how to build a relationships, how to even build monogamy, a marriage, uh, would be so ingrained in you.

So again, it's inspiring that you're changing that. One thing I wanted to touch on, which I think resonates with a lot of our listeners, cuz they come from broken families primarily. Mm-hmm. , is that when you come from dysfunction, when you've endured trauma in your life, especially trauma related to relationships, Right.

Normal, healthy relationships can actually feel boring. Mm. Even on the level of our brains. They don't know all the neurobiology on this, but wow. Even on the level of our brains, it can. This isn't exciting. Like I'm used to yelling. I'm used to drama. I'm used to like, you know, like you said, partying and all these extreme experiences that going for a walk and getting ice cream is like pretty lame

Well, you know, I'm aesthetic so we wouldn't even do that now. There you go.

So, but, but that, it makes so much sense and that explained a lot of my relationships too, where I would be dating these like awesome girls, right? I had my own past where made a lot of sexual mistakes and a lot of regrets. And one thing I wanted to mention on that note to anyone listening right now who is maybe in that spot where you're living that lifestyle and making these, you know, kinda living that empty lifestyle, chasing pleasure, all that.

I'm not proud of the people that I've used. I've never like looked back and been like, Oh yeah, that was a happy experience. You know, that was, I was glad I used that person or let them use me. I always regret it. I, I've never felt happy about that and so, um, I think there's so, so much in your story that can show us a path of okay, that doesn't lead to something good.

And the people in that lifestyle, um, often end up very, very unhappy. Like, like you said. But um, it's an interesting point. They're always unhappy. Always unhappy. Yeah. If you are pursuing that type of relationship, you are unfulfilled, I think by definition. Yeah. Because if you're not trying to be with a person and give to a person, you're not fulfilling your purpose a hundred percent.

It sounded like you had another question. Sorry to cut you off. No, no, you're good. No, this is great. I'm just fascinating cuz some, so many of our listeners want more about love and relationships. I'm glad we're on this point and I know we're gonna get into more of it and let's, let's move there now actually.

So, I'm curious about what changed for you. Like you have had such a drastic change. That's why I'm so fascinated by your story. Most people don't do what you did. Mm. Like it. It's, it's amazing. And so I'm curious, like what changed? What were a couple things that helped you change and heal and grow? It's so crazy, you know, because if I, if I put you at the place I was at the day, I decided to change.

Like I said, I knew nothing of how to treat another person. I knew nothing about how to love myself. I knew nothing about

virtue at all. Perseverance, self-growth, nothing. I knew nothing about how to reject or refuse any drink, which was given to me. I did not know how to say no to going to a rave, any of these things. Yeah, I was zero and I was in this relationship, which. Was built upon all of these things. Mm-hmm. , and it sounds so dumb, but I honestly just, I, I lived in San Francisco.

I told you this, I lived in San Francisco when President Trump won the 2016 election. Mm-hmm. and living there at the time. I remember distinctly being out with friends and it was a group of us who all worked out together and we were all healthy eaters, vanity and living there. It was a mockery that this person was running for president and it was a foregone conclusion that Hillary Clinton would win and living there when that was not the case, and when things appeared to be going in a different direction, it wasn't pe People can't understand this.

Like, it wasn't like, Oh, that's weird. It was like, wow, my entire world view is wrong. When you, when when I lived there and many people I knew. That's why, I mean you see so many people had like a very virulent, violent reaction to it. Yes, that's irrational, we know that, but it's not as simple as like, well why can't you just be detached from politics?

Like when you lived in a metropolitan area like that. Yeah, it was, I remember distinctly waking up and I was like, There is something missing for me. And it is so strange and it's laughable that this was the reason. But I woke up that next day and I just had this question that I had to have answered and it was, what else is true that I am missing?

And from, From the strangest person and the strangest vehicle. Yeah, . God just reached me from that. Wow. What else is true that I am missing and. I was still with, of course, I was still with this person I was in this relationship with and all this stuff. And I just went down this deep intellectual curiosity about what motivates human behavior, to be honest.

Wow. What would motivate human behavior to vote for Donald Trump? And then it became what would motivate human behavior to call themselves conservative. And then it became what would motivate human behavior to model their life on Judeo-Christian values. And then it became what are Judeo Christian values?

And then it became what is the source of Judeo Christian values? And then it became, who is Jesus Christ? And then it became, What did he do while he was here on earth? And then it became what is the Catholic church? And then it became, how can I become a Catholic Christian? Wow. And that was a period, not of a long time, it was a very intense period of probably maybe less than a year.

I'm an extreme person. Yeah. That's amazing. And I just kept a asking this chain of questions and the person that I was with, Once I started getting into the, Who is Jesus, what is the Catholic church? When I got to that stage, she was like, No, this is not what I signed up for. You're crazy. I remember these things.

You've lost it, et cetera. And she moved out all her stuff. Okay. Which was everything. And so I was sleeping on the ground and I remember deep levels of pain. And I remember waking up. I was the, I was doing a startup at the time that was failing very little money. I don't even think I could make rent that maybe that month, maybe the next month.

I was like at the end. Yeah. And I remember waking up that one morning, maybe the right, the day after, and I said, This is the worst day of my life. And. I said to God, I won't say it's my first prayer because that would, that might be a little bit too dramatic, but I said, Interiorly, on your worst day, you chose me.

And on my worst day, I will choose you. And that is true. That truly happened that I was sleeping on the ground, maybe a mattress topper, now that I'm thinking about it. Fair enough. And literally every piece of furniture removed, just nothing going right. And from that day, I honestly can tell you to the best of my ability, I tried to be a better Christian every day.

I was not baptized. I maybe had attended church a little bit. Mm-hmm. , But I, I was not in communion with the church. But I was completely convicted of who Jesus was and what the Catholic church is, who Jesus is, and what the Catholic church is, and nothing was going to stop me from that day, from choosing God every day.

Incredible. And what did that do? Everything, because from that point, I have not had any alcohol. Basically, let's say, you know, plus or minus a few months, no alcohol, no drugs, nothing complete, completely clean. From that point I, as you mentioned, I'm now, I was celibate, no relationship for years, and then eventually decided to move forward with my fiance.

We've not kissed, our first kiss will be at the altar when we're married because God has given that grace. Of chastity and abstinence between us. And from that day, I, like I said, was broke, essentially like financially insolvent. And I built and sold a technology startup in the art artificial intelligence space.

And the only reason is because I had to let go of everything and it was God's will that those things happened. And, and many, many, many, many, many other phenomenal, incredible things, the amount of friends I made, the ability to live a virtuous life in the biggest ways and in the smallest ways. And it is all credit to God and it is all credit to that simple choice on that day.

Unbelievable. One thing I wanted to note is, , it took such honesty and humility for you to ask that question after the election, right? Like, like most people would just be like, pissed off and not want to go. I don't know anyone else that happened for Yeah, me neither. So that, that's incredible. And I think that's a grace, right?

Something that, that's really beautiful. And then you just kept seeking and you found the answers. And that's one thing I remember talking with you about too, It'ss, like, right? All these doubts, you had all these questions about whether it was the reliability of, you know, Jesus's story or different questions you had, You sought the answers and you found, you know, very validated scientific answers.

Yeah, that's exactly right. That's a great point to bring up that every, every step of the way, every question that I asked, I was, I was always marveled by how comprehensively it was answered. You know, I, I would, I was so, I was an atheist, by the way. I grew up in a very religious household. We didn't talk about this.

But I, Religion and Hinduism was very important to me. I was the president of the Hindu Students Association in my college. It was an extremely important part of my identity and who I was. And then I became an atheist. That justified my eism. By the way, it's easy to be self seeking and pleasure seeking when no one's watching.

It's very easy to justify that. So it was very part and parcel with the lifestyle that I lived. So as an atheist, and I was so skeptical that I did not believe that a man named Jesus Christ existed. And so the first step was to even an answer that and it, and again, I would just be struck by the coherency of the truth.

And then I would read the gospel according to John. That was, that was advice that was given to me. And I would read it completely and I would say, This is a perfect book. There's nothing wrong with it. How can that be? And every question I had, would be answered in the same way. Not partially, not, not incorrect.

Not, Yeah, not partially. But comprehensively. Wow. Fully, completely Every question, no cracks in the answers, No cracks, no blemish, nothing. Every question that I had about who Jesus was, about Christianity, about Catholicism would be answered utterly and fully. And I think this is actually what's very interesting, because I know people who have wounds not only around their parents, but they have wounds on the church itself.

Yeah. And so it makes it very difficult to actually look at it this way. And this was a great blessing that I had, that I had a complete Tabula Rossa at St. St. Thomas Aquinas would say a blank slate when it came to the Catholic church. I knew nothing, and my level of ignorance was profound. I didn't know what a sin was.

I didn't know what creation was. I didn't know what temptation was. I didn't know what any of it was. So the more I learned about it, I couldn't believe it. Mm-hmm. , it was so simple that. There is a fallen human nature that I had no ability to fight against. And it explained everything that I did. It explained the reason that I would seek all these satisfactions in this earth, and it explained why it never worked, and it explained how to get out.

That's what it was. Yeah. I mean, it was, it was truth in a way that would allow me to get out of what I was doing to myself. That's what I needed. That's what I wanted. And I wrote this in my journal. You know, I, I went back, like, I started keeping a journal around that time from that day that I mentioned.

And I, I thought that I would, I, I wanted to review it and I thought that my motivations for becoming Christian would be impure in some sense or would have some faults, but I was shocked to find when I look back and my thinking at the time that I wanted to change. That was the biggest thing. It wasn't so much this intellectual curiosity, which led me first in the thing, but that last question that I said, how do I become a Catholic Christian?

The reason I asked that question, I desperately wanted to get out from what my life was. I desperately wanted to stop ruining my life over and over again. I have been broke so many times, so many filled relationships, so many filled businesses. I was just, I have had enough of failing. Yeah. Incredible. Wow.

I'm, I'm honestly in awe, like your story is hard to believe in some ways. It's just, it's so incredible and I can relate on some levels. I remember when my parents separated when I was 10, 11 years old. It just shattered my world and I found a lot of comfort and escape in lust and pornography in particular, and some other sexual sins, and it was something that it worked in the moment.

To, to fill that emptiness, but man, it was, I'm miserable and I noticed I would get more miserable the more I did that stuff. Mm-hmm. , And I felt the same way you did in the sense that I want to change, like I want happiness. I, I was a 12 year old, 13 year old kid at the time, but I'm like, if I live my life this way, I, I want to die.

Because this is miserable. And so meeting people who are actually like happy and joyful was like, What is wrong with you people like, I want to be like you. And the, they were, you know, Catholic Christian friends who were, you know, praying, building virtue, They knew their faith, all that stuff. And that motivated me to do that.

But kinda like you said too, there were some impure intentions in the sense that mixed motives, right? Where I was like, Well, I want to like, fit in with these people. Mm. And I felt like such, such a fake mm-hmm. in the beginning, but in time it started to become more authentically me. I, I genuinely changed and it was really beautiful by God's grace, Of course.

So, so I can relate on that front. And I wanted to kind of complete the picture for people. Uh, what is your life like now that you've healed, that you've changed, that you've grown, that you've, you know, built virtue and now you have faith, Like all this stuff has changed in your life. What is your life now because of that?

Yeah, I mean, . The simple answer is that it's the complete opposite. And the question for us to ask is, is that really what you want? You know? And I think the answer for all of us is yes. And the reason I wanted to come on to this program is because I was really wandering aimlessly and the way my life like is like now is purposeful.

I mean that's, that's the foundational difference. There is a meaning to my life and my job and work and existence every day. Hopefully every moment is fulfilling that meaning and fulfilling that purpose. And I had no idea. No one ever told me. I had no idea, because I don't think the human mind can figure that out for themselves.

That's why God came down from heaven. because he gives us that message. And my life now, like I mentioned, is the ability to move past these grave mortal desires. Mm-hmm. and to begin working on the way of perfection, which is to let go of vanity, to let go of even the smallest inkling of anything which keeps me from being the greatest person I can possibly be, which is the person who represents and imitates Christ to the fullest degree possible.

And like him, it is a life of giving. You know, instead of living in a way that I am constantly pursuing self-interest, I am able to live in a way that is giving towards others. My fiance, the people I work with, whatever it is. My friends non-profits, whatever it is. And that is so much more enjoyable and it's so much more complete because before all I concerned myself about was satisfying myself.

And now because I have the confidence and because I anchor myself to what truly matters, I'm able to do what truly matters. You know, there's just, I, I look at it more like I was just cut every day at the stem. Every day I would wake up and I would just snip the fruit, snip the plant, right at the germination.

Mm-hmm. through just an, I mean, I had an impossible task. I had to control my desires and I couldn't. And now I just let that plant grow and it's about participating in a way that. Supports people around me and, and lives with great friendships and it's, it's a life that's fulfilled. I mean, I don't, I don't want to go into, uh, all the ins and outs of my life.

Sure. Cause I don't know that it's, it's necessarily relevant for everyone. But I think what is really great for anyone who has these, like really deep pains from their family that they see themselves trying to satisfy in ways that they recognize, recognize are wrong, That once you can stop doing that, that alone will make you happy.

To be honest. Yeah. Because it's not really about how God uses you in your career or what have you. Yeah. It's just merely the fact that he wants you at all. I mean, that's really the difference. Mm-hmm. , like what I've done in my career since what God has done in my career. You would, I would never have believed you to give, to help me become successful in exactly the realm that I wanted to be the founder of a technology company.

I never believed it, but that's for very few people. Yeah. You know that and that actually, to be honest, that gave me so much less satisfaction than I thought it would, and God is so good for showing me that. Wow. You know, the day after we sold our company, I think I told you I had like 250 net x, 250 X my net worth.

I'm not ashamed to tell you that. Yeah. It did very little for me. Wow. I mean, I couldn't believe that I wanted that for like 10 years did very little for me. What really mattered was just being able to go to church every day and being able to have the friendships and relationships that I have. And then through that, being able to build this really special relationship with my fiance that is actually what matters in my life.

That's beautiful. I had no capability to do that without my faith because. , my temptations, my desires would utterly destroy that. Yeah. Constantly. It's still that li life of meaning, like what, what I hear you saying is now you have a life full of meaning. You, you have a purpose that's bigger than yourself, a deep purpose that's bigger than yourself, which is beautiful.

Instead of taking in the ways in which you did in your former life, you're now giving, which is so beautiful, whether it's in your relationships and work wherever. And uh, and that's incredibly inspiring and I've found similar, uh, truths in my own life to where it's, yeah, it's so much more beautiful to live that sort of life and so much more fulfilling too.

It does require sacrifice. It does require pain. It does require that self-control of saying no to certain things, but there's so much more peace, so much more joy, so much more intimacy and like a depth of your life than living on the surface of pleasure and satisfaction in. Cheap sense of the word. So really beautiful.

One of the things I wanted to highlight though, in your life is just amazing. Like you went from where you were with all these different women partying, all that to now you have this beautiful woman in your life and the marriage. That alone I think is like so noteworthy. Mm. And so I wanted to circle back to that quickly.

How's that gone? Like your past, given your past to whatever level you're comfortable sharing to now building this beautiful relationship, how's that gone? And if you could touch on the whole no kissing thing. I know a lot of people when they were listening, they were like, maybe drop their phone or something.

Yeah. Great. It's a great thought. It's a great question. Everything about how I relate it to my, myself and everything about how he related to other people changed and the, I think the worst, the worst of who I was, was how I interacted, how I related to a romantic partner and. That has been changed completely because when I, when I receive the love of God and really understand and recognize love for what it is, yeah, the, the calling and the experience of loving another person is completely different.

And so, like I mentioned, my fiance and I, we met at church physically. We actually lived right down the street from each other. She was the girl next door. Nice And everything about how I approached our relationship, everything about how I approached romantic interests in her was the complete opposite of everything I had done before.

And first and foremost, it started with friendship. I was incapable before of having a friendship with a person who is a woman incapable. Because if, if we were not moving towards some sort of fleshly outcome, you were of No, there was no purpose in the friendship at all. Yeah. So that's just one that her and I started as friends, truly as friends.

And then from that, you can actually get to know someone. And then I, as I mentioned, I had no idea what a courtship was at all. And with her, I formally asked her if I could pursue her in a relationship. And then we formally went on dates and we formally did these things, building towards a specific future.

Beautiful. Which I was complete. I mean, I never did that before. I literally never did. I have never done that before until I did it with her. And how did I learn that? Through the principle of how you should treat someone. Because it wasn't really by example, It was by learning something new about how I should treat myself and how I should treat someone.

And then after that, it was about formally asking. , whether, you know, talking about marriage, you know, but really specifically going towards this outcome. Mm-hmm. , you know, talking about it, exploring it, and also specifically talking about our relationship with God. You know, bringing that into it constantly.

And when you do that, you think about virtues like chastity or obedience or serving the other person. You know, you think about all these higher callings of how you could interact with someone. Mm-hmm. , and you want to do that because you know, you understand. I understood finally what marriage was. Right. I had no idea.

No clue. Yeah. How would you? No idea. And I, and I also understood what sex was. I had no idea before I learned because the Catholic church taught me what does marriage mean? What does sex human sexuality mean? And so when you learn those things, then you are going to interact with someone very differently.

And it's a, And then it becomes a very natural conclusion that you won't express yourself, You, you'll express yourself physically in the most limited way that you can, in the most prudent, limited way you can. Because we must save everything possible for marriage. Everything we can possibly save for our marriage, we should.

That's what gives it meaning. I have, you know, some friends who, who are not in the church, who knew me from a foreign, and they live in a way that I used to with their partners, et cetera. Mm-hmm. . And they said to me, they asked, How will you know it's good if you never did it? What if it's not good? And I said, My friend, it is because we wait.

That it is good. Beautiful. It is because we place such an importance on it. that it will be good because kissing the value of it and sexuality, the value of it is not the physical human person alone. Mm-hmm. , it's the physical people and the ensoulment that they have. It's the, it's the supernatural person that's underneath.

Mm-hmm. and my fiance and I, from the beginning said, We will keep our marriage as secret as possible when it comes to the nature of this. And like I said, it's amazing. I literally never did that before. I never, I never even, that thought, never even occurred to me. Yeah. Before it's, no, it's such a foreign idea.

And, and, and by the way, what that means is I just have to decide to literal. It, it was just that simple. The the, the idea changed how I approached it mm-hmm. and then it was up to me whether I was gonna follow the idea or not. Yeah. No, it makes so much sense and there's so much more that we can say there.

One thing I did want to point to as well, that question that your friends would ask you, that's something I've heard before too, and I think it's, um, it's awesome to note that you're not marrying her for that purpose. Mm-hmm. , like that's a bonus, that's something beautiful that is a result of your love, but it's not like your, you know, sex life is gonna be the reason you're marrying her.

And so I think it's really beautiful cuz in, in, in our culture there's this pursuit of just pleasure and excitement in, in a sexual relationship. And it's very different in a marriage when you're, your sexuality is an expression of just love. Yeah. And you know, it's funny when you talk about the reason that you get married, She and I are very.

Okay. You know, when we, when we started our relationship, we're all friends in the same community and people couldn't believe it. They were like, This doesn't make any sense, . And they're like, If you guys break up, we're gonna choose her. I just want you to know that . Right. I can guess that and I, but her and I were like, I don't know what you guys are talking about.

This is gonna be great. And it had very little to do with our personalities. I mean, it's a true story of opposites attract, because the foundation of it though is that we both loved going to church and we both loved spirituality and relationship with God. And I have never met anyone who cares about that more than her.

And that was the reason. That was a motivation. Yeah. And it's very funny that it's, that's literally, I would never have thought about that before. It would've been exactly what that pyramid was before inverted and all these different check boxes. But in the end, yeah, it's just about. It takes three to get married, Bishop Fulton, Blessed Fulton Chinen, and it's just two people pointing towards God.

And that is the reason that we can choose to build a relationship in a completely different way than either of us ever have. I mean, she really has never had a serious relationship herself. Okay. So it's new territory for both of us. And the way to do it is just, it's just two people pointing towards God.

It's amazing, and I think there's such a good lesson in what you said too, for all of us listening, and that is whatever you build your relationship upon is what it will stand on. Yes. So if it's built upon fun and pleasure and all that, once that goes away, the relationship will crumble. Exactly. And so building it on such a deeper purpose on a life of love, really of meaning, of giving of yourself, there's really nothing better.

Yeah. That's so beautiful. Yeah. And that's, That's exactly right. Everything else is temporary and. That's, I mean, I've said it here on this program, I went through a profound change and I would say one of the biggest things was that I just let go of everything. Yeah. I really let go of everything, and I know that's very hard for people.

I think I mentioned to you that I lost my identity completely. I just had nothing of, I did not know who I was, and my identity now is centered completely on the Catholic church, and that's hard. I know that's hard for people. That's a, that's a very foreign thing. My hope is, especially if you've been born with a faith and you were introduced to it as a, as a child, that you can make a step towards that and not need the humiliation and self destruction that I needed.

That's like, and I feel like this audience really is an audience that resonates with me very strongly because I. I was going nowhere. Yeah, I mean that's the, that's the gone God's honest truth. And I am doing something now that I didn't learn on my own. I didn't learn from observing at all. I honestly learned it, like I said, by just receiving Catholic teaching.

Whether it's very practical, like within the last century on marriage and sexuality or something that we've known for a long time. I mean, everything about how I approach my relationship with her is all from the Catholic church, everything, because I had nothing else. And anyone can choose that you, I mean, just if you feel like you're really far away, you just have to go to confession.

I mean, it's not that far away from you. It's amazing. I wish we could talk forever. We have to close down, but a few final questions. One, if your parents were listening right now, uh, what would you say to them? What would you want them to know? Ha. That would be a very tenuous, painful discussion, unfortunately.

Fair enough. That's a, that would be very hard. What I would tell to them is that I, I do love you and I I'm so far beyond blaming you anymore, and I'm so far beyond holding you accountable. Like I, we gotta get past this because everyone is, is imperfect. Every person on earth has imperfect parents, myself included, and we can, if we want, argue about who is more imperfect and how my wounds, and, and this was something very huge for me, by the way.

I have a spiritual, spiritual director who said, You have a legitimate wound from your family. And I never thought about that until he said that, that there is such a thing as a legitimate grievance. But if my parents were listening to this, I would recognize my legitimate grievance. Personally with God, but I would tell them, I've moved past this.

Let's all just move past this because there's no point in trying to understand whose grievance is more legitimate or staying attached to it. I mean, that was a huge, huge change for me through the Catholic Church, was actually to acknowledge that I had a legitimate grievance and then see how easy it is, how important it is to move past it.

Let's not say it's easy. No, that would be unfair. Sure. But it is possible for sure. Yeah, and that's amazing that there's an incredible lesson in that because I think a lot of people get stuck and they feel like, Oh, we can't move beyond this. But yeah, I to, I agree. It's solely possible. There's so much more.

I'd love to ask you, uh, if people wanna follow you, how could they follow you and what are you working on now? I know there's a lot of parents who do listen to this show, and I know you have, uh, a lot of advice when it comes to online safety and things like that. I'm not sure if you wanted to touch on that or not feel free, but yeah, what are you up to now and how can people follow you?

You know, I don't have any social media. I'm, I do a lot of content creation, and the biggest part is to just share my love of our faith. If you are interested, I've started another company, which is called PDay email, www.feedday.email. And this is a software platform for email calendar file share. It's similar to like a Google workspace or Microsoft office, and we've built it our own, and we're a Catholic company with Catholic values.

So this is something that if you have a small business or you're worried about big tax censorship, things like that, that's what that's about. But I actually don't talk about it in all my appearances because for me it, it's more just about the story and it's a beautiful story. And in closing out, just wanna ask you, if you could go back in time and talk to that younger you who is living that empty life, who is just seeking all those pleasures and success, what would you.

You're an idiot. . We're done. That's it. , You know what I would say to him? And there's, there's so many different times, different time periods, so I'll say, let's say to the adult, the big change for me was learning how to drive and getting a driver's license because that independence from that point on, there was a lot of chaos.

But whether it was high school or it was in my, you know, my mid twenties when I was in really the, the depths of it, what would I say to myself? I would say, I dunno what he would've listened to. And I tell that to my parents too. I've been very open with them about doing drugs and it is really psycho lifestyle.

I, I've told him the stuff which is very hard for them and they feel bad, but I tell them, and this is confidently, I would never have listened to anything you said. So, but what I would still say to myself at that time, and it would've been the most important thing to know, is that I deserved better. I think the, the, the most dec, the most difficult thing that I didn't understand is that I deserved better than to, to hurt myself so much.

And I deserved more than to ruin my life all the time. I ruin my life over and over again, and I think it's so hard to receive love my friend, like we think that it's easy, but it's actually the most difficult that's, that is actually becoming a saint, is to receive the love of God completely with no filter and no imperfection.

It's very difficult and I, I would do anything I could to say to myself at that time when I was sober that you deserve better. Like you, you deserve better because you are made in the image and likeness of God. Not because you're so smart, not because you went to this good school, not because you make this money, blah, blah, blah.

No, it is just simply because God has made you in his image and likeness that you deserve better, and from that you can do anything. That's what I would tell myself, that you don't have to harm yourself in this way.

There are so many great lessons in that interview from Kalas, and a few of them are one. Every one of us is made for authentic life and nothing else will satisfy All the material. Things that we could have won't satisfy. All the pleasure won't satisfy, all the excitement won't satisfy. We're made for more than all of.

Another lesson related to that is something called the personalistic norm. It sounds fancy, but it's really simple. The only adequate or proper response to another human person is love, which in simple terms really just means desiring and doing what is ultimately best for that person. And the opposite of love is using the person for your own pleasure or for your own good.

Another lesson is if you wanna transform, if you wanna heal, if you want to grow, you have to start by being brutally honest with yourself and humble, because without facing yourself as you are and being humble enough to admit that you're wrong or you're broken in this area or that area, you're gonna keep feeling stuck in life or in your relationships.

Another lesson, whatever you build your relationship on, it will stand on. So if it's built on pleasure, when pleasure goes away, or lessons, it will fall apart. If it's built on good looks, when those looks change or go away, it will fall apart. If it's built on feelings, when those feelings fade. It will fall apart.

But if it's built on authentic love and a desire to really help the person that you love become the best version of themselves, it will last. And so be careful what you build your relationships. And finally, you can heal, You can grow, you can change, you can transform. You can even move beyond the hurt and the trauma in your family.

You can even begin to heal your relationship with your parents like Kala did in his life. And it isn't easy, but it is possible. And we're here to guide you through all of that. One resource that my nonprofit resort offers to anyone from a Broken Family is my book. It's titled, It's Not Your Fault, A Practical Guide to Navigating The Pain and Problems From Your Parents' Divorce.

And the sad truth is that for a lot of teens and young adults, the most traumatic thing that they've endured in their life is their parents' separation or divorce, or even just a lot of brokenness at home. But nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and all the problems that stem from their family's breakdown.

And without that guidance, they continue to feel alone and struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping, relationship struggles, and so much more. And I experience these problems myself. It really shouldn't be this way that young people who've been through this feel alone. My book, It's Not Your Fault, is an answer to that problem.

It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by teens and young adults who come from broken families, such as After my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted, and adequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me. What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life events?

How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage? And so many more questions, and the content itself is based on research, expert advice, and real life stories. And after reading, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents', divorce, separation, or broken marriage, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems.

They'll learn healing tactics that they can use to feel whole again. They'll learn how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God, and how to make important decisions about their future. And so if you wanna buy the book or get the first chapters free, just go to restored ministry.com/books.

Again, that's restored ministry.com/books, or just click on the link in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

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#081: What to Do If Fear Holds You Back in Life and Relationships | Dr. Rebecca Showalter, PsyD

If you’re from a broken family, you’ve likely dealt with a lot of fear. For so many of us, that holds us back in life and relationships. At the core of that fear is usually the fact that we don’t feel safe.

If you’re from a broken family, you’ve likely dealt with a lot of fear. For so many of us, that holds us back in life and relationships. At the core of that fear is usually the fact that we don’t feel safe. 

In this episode, a psychologist joins us to discuss why so many people struggle to feel safe and how that affects their life and relationships. We also touch on:

  • What exactly is healing? Dr. Showalter explains 3 aspects of healing.

  • Is healing actually possible, or are we doomed to merely manage symptoms? 

  • What to do if you feel afraid or embarrassed about seeing a therapist

  • A healing tool called the Safe and Sound Protocol

Sign up for Therapy or the Safe and Sound Protocol with Dr. Showalter

Share How Restored Has Helped You


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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

if you're like me and you come from a broken family, you've likely dealt with a lot of fear and so often that fear holds us back in life and relationships and at the core of that fear is usually the fact that we don't feel safe. And we've seen this again and again with the young people from broken families that we work with at restored. It's a real struggle to debilitating struggle. And so in this episode, a psychologist joins us to discuss why so many people struggle to feel safe and how that affects their life and relationships. She also answers the questions what exactly is healing? She hits on the three aspects of healing. What are common misconceptions about healing? We talk about how healing is actually quite intense, especially at first it's healing actually possible are those of us who feel broken, doomed to merely manage symptoms. What should I do if I feel afraid or embarrassed about seeing a therapist and then she offers a healing tool that involves music called the safe and sound protocol. Really great stuff in this episode. You're gonna learn a lot from this interview. So keep listening. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce separation or broken marriage so you can feel whole again, I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. Thanks so much for listening. This is episode 81. If this podcast or other resources from this sort of helped you. We'd love to hear how they've helped you and the benefits of sharing how we've helped you is that it gives us insight into what's most valuable for you so we can do more of it helps us set strategy for the future so we can keep serving you and it shows people the effectiveness of our work which convinces others to use our content and our tools. If you will share your story here's how just go to restored ministry dot com slash testimony restored ministry dot com slash testimony. Just answer the quick questions about how restored has helped you. It can be anonymous by the way, totally your choice and then we'll turn that into an anonymous blog article. So if you want to share how restored has helped you just do that Today restored ministry dot com slash testimony. My guest today is dr Rebecca show walter since she was a child. Dr Rebecca had a fascination with people and their stories and later in life she graduated from the Institute for the psychological Sciences in Arlington Virginia where she studied the human person on a philosophical and scientific level. After receiving her doctorate in clinical psychology, she became the director of testing at Saint Raphael counseling in Denver colorado. She now has a private practice in the Denver area. She's trained in various therapy methods including emotion focused therapy in her personal therapy, Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. That's E. M. D. R therapy. Internal family systems therapy and non directive, child centered play therapy. On that last note, she has a passion for the psychological development of Children and has seen that method of therapy help Children find significant growth and change in just a handful of sessions. Dr Rebecca also works with parents on how to play therapeutically with their Children and build secure attachment which basically means a strong and loving bond between them that's built on trust. In the 15 plus years she's spent in psychology she's learned that her ability to help others heal and grow is actually dependent upon her own healing and growth. She's also learned that she still has a lot to learn. So here's my conversation with dr Showalter Rebecca. It's so good to have you on the show. Thanks for making time for us. Thanks Joey. It's really great to be here. I'm excited to learn more about the particular therapy that you offer and then as well talk about healing but before we get to that I have kind of an interesting question for you and that is why do you do what you do? I'm always interested to hear, kind of what makes big bill tick and what drives them? What what's your purpose? So what do you do, what you do? Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's it's a different answer now from when I initially started I think going down this path I had a strong sense of of really wanting to do something, you know I guess just sounds kind of cliche but important with my life and something that really helped other people and in general, you know, I always had good feedback about being a good listener and being a calming presence and really helping people and yes, so, so initially I was in college, I was initially a business major and then at some point I realized, no, I think I just want to be a therapist and so I switched over to psych, but I was kind of ambivalent about it. So then I ended up doing english literature, but that that desire to kind of do that was still there and and I pursued it and now honestly, I would say I'm I'm fascinated by human development and the ability to to change and grow and heal and the sky is the limit kind of an idea and how far can we really, how far can I go personally, and how far can can my clients grow and change and heal? And I really believe people have the power to substantially change their lives and change the direction that their life is going and reveal even mid mid life kind of thing. That's certainly been the case for me. I just can't imagine having to have continued to live the life I was living for a while. The gift and help that psychology and therapy has been for me is it's hard to put words to it. It's been really profound for me and I love being in a place where my work is both continuing to do that work for myself and helping others in that way? I also do psych assessments, which I just find completely fascinating. I think it's wonderful that we have all these tools and measures that can really help get behind defenses and help somebody understand themselves in a way that just simply looking in a mirror or being in some kind of echo chamber will never help them attain. So yeah, that makes that makes so much sense. And I was talking with a friend recently where, you know, especially when there's some illness of physical illness, let's say you're dealing with, it's so freeing to be able to put a name to it, to say this is your diagnosis, this is what's wrong and there's such fear and uncertainty and not knowing and being like something's wrong with me? I can tell, but I just don't know what is. So the psych assessments make so much sense. I'm excited that maybe discuss that a little bit more. I love what you said about human potential about our ability to change and grow and heal and all that. And I think some people struggle to believe in that at all. And so I want to talk with you a little bit later about healing in itself, like what does that mean? And how do we go about it? And you know, what are some of the misconceptions, but before we get there, I'm curious about the therapy that you practice for those of us who haven't heard about it. Can you give us a general review of what's safe and sound protocol with the safe and sound protocol is and how it can help someone. You bet the first element there the first misnomer is that it's not actually a therapy, it is an intervention but it doesn't stand alone as a therapy. The safe and sound protocol is it's a series, it's five hours of music that has been filtered so that the frequencies and it have been changed. So it's major cover it's it's covers of music that anybody would would recognize from the sixties seventies eighties nineties. The kid version is Disney music but their covers and those covers have been altered or modified so that the frequencies are different. This it's born out of the poly vagal theory which um dr Stephen Porges is is the sort of leading, I'm not even entirely sure what he is. He might be a neurobiologist or a neuropsychologist. Something along those line. Anyway he's what they've discovered is that the middle ear muscles around your ear drum are like any other muscle in your body. It can become very good at doing something if you practice it a lot and it can be it can atrophy it cannot do something at all. Well if you don't use it and so people who have been in traumatic situations now that could be major trauma like war zone trauma. you know, brutal car accidents, the immediate loss of a loved one. It can also be sustained criticism, sustained fighting, sustained tension, sustained all these ways in which we can experience disruptions, significant disruptions inter personally with other people. Um So for people who grew up in a really contentious household or a lot of fighting or a lot of shaming those are in this way of understanding the human person, those are very traumatic experiences um and their chronic which is even worse. And so what happens is over time those muscles in the middle ear around the eardrum become very good at hearing low frequencies sounds of danger and and maybe even very high frequencies and that's another, another range in which danger sounds reside, that those muscles become less good at hearing the sounds of safety that are around them. So in the human, in the human voice or in the gentle breeze, just all kinds of ways that that there are actually sounds of safety. So this is what we consider a very bottom up approach to treating somebody. This is an understanding that we cannot really access through just talking. So, so traditional talk therapy methods kind of fall apart at this level because it takes a lot to really even know how your central nervous system is responding to sound. Like that's if you were to just ask any sort of person off the street, they would have very little unless they've really done a lot of bodily somatic work, they would have very little access to knowing how their system is responding to sound. So what they've done in this music is they've modified it and and create and arranged the frequencies such that it's actually training your middle ear to tighten back up so that it can hear these sounds of safety so that it knows that the human voice that it's hearing is actually a safe human voice. For example, example, I'd like to give is so we have a difference. This is very physiologically based. So that's back to this understanding that we there's the parasympathetic zone which hopefully we live in most of the time, that's the rest and digest. That's where social engagement can happen. You can be at ease with people around you having a good time hanging out with people. Then there's the sympathetic level and that's the fight or flight and that's when there's a threat or danger. But you can overcome it by either fleeing or fighting. And then the third level of activation if you will is the free zone and that's when the threat is so large that you can't overcome it. And you have to freeze. For example, if some if the fire alarm to go off in the house, that's automatically going to send somebody into this sympathetic fighter flight. Um either put out the fire or or get out of the house. Now let's say you you look around and you realize, oh, there's absolutely no fire. It's just that the bacon smoking a little more, you know, then it's okay. I'm going to go over and turn the bacon down, fan the smoke detector so that it stops beeping and then idea we should be able to move right back into the parasympathetic. There is no threat. We're totally safe, everything's fine. But what's the reality for most people is they've been triggered and they're not going to move back down into safety. They're going to be on edge even though, even though cognitively they know, okay, it was just the smoking bacon, everything's fine. There's no fire. Their system doesn't know how to re enter safety to reenter the parasympathetic. Um, it's for a lot of people, it was just never safe to do that. It was always safer to stay on alert in some way. Um, so this music is really designed to help people to help people system automatically learn how to shift back into safety when the signs of safety are present so that people don't have to walk around living in a state of tension fight or flight fear anxiety, depression if it moves up into that free zone. Amazing. Thank you for explaining that. I love the science behind it too. I think that's so important to talk about as well because a lot of people don't have that understanding. I can see this left and right, even in my own life coming from a broken family, but also in the lives of the young people that we serve, how we seem to be on that extra alert mode that kind of looking around, scanning around for some disaster, just always on guard. And one of the ways in which I've seen that be the most devastating the lives of these young people and even in my own life is how it affects your relationships, which you want to touch on in a, in a second. But first it seems like the main focus of all of this protocol is to make people feel safe. And maybe it's an obvious question. I know you touched on a little bit, but why do you think this is a struggle for for so many people, especially people who come from broken families? Well, safety. That's in some ways that's the initial task in, in our life as as young Children as infants is to is to feel safe. I guess task is probably not the right word there, but but where that's the equilibrium we're trying to achieve all the time as as babies is safety. And with a really well regulated set of parents or caregivers, that's usually pretty easy, they're safe. They're providing a safe environment. They react really positively to everything the child does. Even if it's cry even if it's a certain point, babies have teeth and you know, they figure out the teeth and they start to bite. And if you got parents that respond really well to all of that and continue to create safety. Well that gets into some of the other theorists work like Bowlby and and other psychologists who have, who have discovered this whole area of attachment theory and what is required for Children to be to be able to develop and strong safe attachment is crucial for people to develop, to be able to explore, to be able to learn to be able to understand. So safety underlies all of that. Safety is so basic. It's so important when Children are asking questions, they're almost always asking questions of safety instead of information, even though it sounds like they're asking for information, You know, so so adults can get kind of tripped up in our adult ways. We're sort of like, oh, providing a ton of information to Children where really the Children are are wondering and trying to find evidence that they're safe. Now. If you grow up in an environment where that's not the case, the parents aren't particularly well attuned, Maybe they haven't, I haven't worked through all of their own difficulties and triggers. And so if they're easily triggered by something the child does and then they react very badly. All of that is giving feedback to the child that you're not safe. You're not safe. This isn't entirely safe. This it's certainly not safe to have those feelings or it's certainly not safe to say that thing and I want to be clear here. There doesn't need to be physical abuse. It doesn't need to get to that level for a child to be aware that the environment is not safe. Ask any child any sensitive child walks into a school room full of kids that are ready to tease and pick on and it's certainly an experience of that school room is not safe even though physically they may be entirely safe, so to speak. So yeah, safety safety is required for all of this. Like all of these positive movements in somebody's life, potential growth in order to meet your potential to get curious to ask questions to learn to explore and to and to be at rest to, to stay kind of extended periods of rest and see how that, you know what that brings to a person's body. So it doesn't take much unfortunately to disrupt a person's experience of safety because especially emotional safety and I do think that that's because a lot of people are not very emotionally grounded and attuned to themselves. And so if you do or say something that disrupts their quote unquote inner peace, that could be an argument made that they don't really have inner peace if that's the case. But if you do as a child, if you do or say something that just triggers mom or dad triggers a caregiver triggers the teacher and then they just kind of flip or turn or you see a side of them that's scary. Yeah, You just learned very quickly that, that being on high alert is the safest way to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not safe even. Yeah, it makes so much sense. And I'm just thinking through some of the research on divorce and the people that we've worked with as well that this rings. Um, so true. And one of the fascinating things when you said that there doesn't need to be physical abuse, obviously there's situations, a lot of the researchers breakdown divorces into kind of two buckets where there's high conflict divorces and low conflict divorces, which I'm sure you're familiar with. And what one researcher paul Amato from Penn State, he's a sociologist there. He studied this extensively, What he found actually was fascinating that high conflict divorces where there's abuse, there's violence, there's a lot of overt drama and conflict. Um, he said those situations, um, you know, a child can actually benefit from a separation obviously because they need to get to safety. And the divorce in itself though it is still impactful and it can be traumatic. Um, it's not the most traumatic, the most traumatic situation when it comes to your parents marriage falling apart is the low conflict situation where there's more covert problems. There's not the violence abuse. Um, there's not a lot of screaming conflict fighting that way. There are problems, not to minimize those in any way, but to the child that looks like, well things seemed fine. And then dad was gone. And you know, our family has fallen apart and he he what he says is that they found that those low conflict situations are actually the most impactful, the most traumatic on the child. Because it seemed going back to your point, it seemed like everything was safe and then it wasn't. And then what we've observed working with young people from broken families is that you go through life almost thinking, well, family was supposed to be the most stable thing in my life and if that fell apart, well what won't fall apart and then we kind of get are on edge in that mode that you said, always thinking that there's a disaster around every corner. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. I do think that it's the best way to put this Children are aware of discrepancies and dissidents, just like everybody else. They may not have the language for it. They may not be able to put words around it, but especially a family where um it's not talked about, it's kind of implied or understood or there's some kind of delusion going on that the family is doing just fine, that it's a great family, even even a positive family life and then all of a sudden, you know, one day that the child hears, Oh no, mom or dad are moving out. I mean, first of all, that's abandonment and that that will always I mean that's that's the scariest thing for a child in some ways is to be abandoned by a parent, even if it's even if the parent is nearby and sees them frequently, um just the act of moving out of the home is is there's no way getting around that, that's an abandonment and then the child is left with this understanding that yeah, there's there's this strong dissonance. We say things we we we pretend like things have been one way and and really the reality is things have been differently and to put it in context that the reaction of that is much like you're being gas lighted by somebody, like wait a minute, what you're saying is not real is not true. The things you've been telling me, you know, we're fine. Mom and dad are fine, we're fine, we just have these fights. You know, all parents fight, you know, this is okay. Um you know, these low conflict fights don't or divorces maybe don't always include those elements, but but something like that where you're, you're sort of believing that okay, we're in the realm of normal here, we're in the realm of everything's pretty much okay. And then things turn on a dime. I mean that that that rattles somebody's sense of reality to their core really, that makes a lot of sense to me that those would be worse. That that the fallout from that would be worse than its highly contentious. We all see it, that it's really clear that nobody is doing well here. Yeah. And and there's no pretense about it. Yeah, I'm with you there and obviously both are tragic and we both would say that, but I can definitely observe the different effect that the, you know, the split up itself would have on the child. Thinking back to the point you made about Children always seeking safety. It makes so much sense. My wife and I, we have a daughter who's a little over one and she's not talking much yet. She'll say words and things, but it's really beautiful to kind of just observe the different things that she wants or the way in which she's communicating. And I can totally see that threat of safety just when mom leaves the room, she's like get so sad or when, you know, I need to go go out for a little bit. So I'm jumping in the car. She's you know, like, no, I don't want you to leave so I can see how she feels safe with both of us there. And I've noticed even we're not always able to be together as a family because if I'm working or you know different. My wife's doing chores or going shopping, whatever. We're not always able to be together as a family. But when, when all three of us are together, she just loves it. There just her face looks different, her eyes even look different, she's she feels like so safe and content. And the other day we were just, you know, we're playing around and we were all like laying in our bed and she just was laying in between us and she just looked so happy and she was just playing like normal. And so you know, that would be an amazing thing to to be able to experience throughout the breath of our life. But obviously there's tragic things that happen and so I want to talk about that a little bit. Being in that place of not feeling safe. How does that affect your day to day life and relationships? Going back to that point earlier, it's going to be unique to everybody in some ways we can say some general things, but in therapy, the work of therapy is really helping somebody unravel and unpacked and really understand the cost of it to their own lives, what what their specific costs are for not feeling safe. For feeling on edge. You're going to get a lot of different presentations of what that looks like for some people, there's going to be, there's going to be sort of an anxious need to constantly be validated or or or given some kind of sign that everything's okay. So this, you know, I'm not, I'm sure you've had people on your podcast before that have talked about attachment styles, but this is the anxious attachment person. Yeah. Who who just can't, even if if everything's good for a few seconds or for minutes, um, as soon as the other person walks away, as soon as the other person is having a thought that sort of carrying them off into the distance and their face changes, that really rattles people who have this anxious attachment, you know, what's going on inside of them? Have things changed now? You know, if if you grew up in an environment where things could turn on a dime, you're always waiting for things to turn on a dime, even if the person you're with is is steady and stable and and has has a lot of emotional regulation. Some people are just going to shut down and avoid and and be distant. Um not engaged at least not engage in any deeply meaningful way. Some people are just going to pretend that what they learned is that if you pretend well enough, it really makes everybody happy and and and that's the best way to happiness is when people around you are happy. So you just pretend everything's okay. Find things to talk about or say that that will please other people. Yeah, you've got people get strong dependency issues. You have people who have strong avoidant issues. There's a lot that goes into what creates different disorders, but almost certainly anxiety and depression are going to show up. Maybe some of the more significant disorders of borderline personality disorder is a common personality disorder, which is really center is that the one of the central problems for somebody with borderline personality disorder is the desire to be very close to somebody else, but the inability to trust there's a lot of anger there, there's a lot of fear of abandonment. So those are some different ways it can present, makes so much sense. And again, you're speaking our language, all of our audience members either come from broken family or they know someone who does and yeah, even thinking back through my own story and pretty vulnerable with our audience and an attempt to hopefully be someone of a guinea pig so they can learn. But I remember I was 10, 11 years old when my parents separated and I couldn't have put it in towards them, but I remember feeling abandoned and wanted and like I just wasn't good enough and in the months and years that followed, I dealt with all sorts of problems you named a lot of them, emotional problems, anxiety, depression, loneliness, a lot of anger dealt with relationship struggles, like, I remember as a kid after my parents separated and later got divorced, I remember thinking I'll never get married. Like if this is how it ends, why in the world would I want that so painful and then, you know, struggling to trust people to be vulnerable when it came time to, you know, start dating and entering the serious relationships, I just was so terrified and haven't heard a lot of people talk about that and the way you talk about is really beautiful and accurate about how yeah, we go and we have a lot of fear of love and relationships and vulnerability that can hold us back from really forming those healthy relationships. I know I had to fight through a lot of that. I found a lot of healing along the way and guidance from my mentors and therapists, but um but it's a lot, it's a lot to go through and um um I yeah, so everything you're saying, certainly tracking with you there and I you can see how going through that trauma and causes you not to feel safe and they're not feeling safe impacts your everyday life and your relationships so much. And I'm sure we could take the entire show to talk about that before we transition into healing any final thoughts on that. I like that you brought up loneliness. I think that that's really key. I think these experiences leave people feeling incredibly alone and unable to trust the very thing that rescues you from loneliness. Unable to trust relationships, wow. Yeah, and this whole idea that connection and intimacy is really the antithesis or maybe the antidote to trauma is so important to focus on because if we're running from it, you know, we're never going to find the healing and the growth that we we all long for. Yeah, one final thought here along those lines there a child can endure and come out of almost any traumatic experience relatively unscathed emotionally. If they have a very highly resourced and attuned attachment figure, essentially parent or or father mother caregiver that is in the moment a child can sustain and a tremendous amount of trauma, whether you know, however, that comes about if they're doing it in the arms of somebody who is who is very healthy and attached and providing the antidote as it's happening, providing the connection, the security, the love. Yeah, and that's what we want to recreate in therapy in the therapy setting is that we want to help people finally be able to fully process out the trauma because they're in an environment where that's actually possible that the safety and the strength of the connection, the strength of the attachment is strong enough to endure the trauma, whatever the trauma maybe amazing, it makes so much sense. One of the trauma therapists that we refer people to, that we've had on the show, she says that what makes the trauma trauma is how it gets taken care of or lack thereof. And so it seems to go in line with everything that you just said, which I think is is really beautiful and shows the importance of having those relationships, we could talk forever, but I want to be respectful of your time transitioning into healing? I'm curious how do you define healing personally? My what what makes the most sense for me is to is to start with, how does healing just happen in nature when the human brain doesn't have to get involved and figure it out. How does it happen? And you know, there's tons of evidence for that everywhere. The body can heal itself of physical injuries, a lot of physical injuries without intervention. In fact, usually what we have to do is get out of the body's way. You know, if there's a significant cut, we just have to make sure that that cuts protected so that it can heal and we all know those, you know, I grew up with, my brother is just one of my brothers is just year younger and he and his best friend all throughout our adolescents, their legs were just constantly torn up because they would just re itch all these bug bites and all these scars and they just were forever reopening these wounds. And of course girl, I just found it so disgusting. I didn't want to be anywhere near them. Like if we had to sit next to each other in a car or something else, but that's that's a good example of we can prevent healing physically. We actually don't do much to make our bodies heal themselves that that's really all there. If the trauma is significant enough then we do need to intervene. You know, if the bone breaks to the degree that it needs to be reset then we certainly need to do that. So it's not, you know, we have er s for a reason we can't you know rely on on the body to be able to heal everything at least quickly enough. You know, we might lead out first. So that's so one of the things we want to do emotionally is understand, okay, what do we need? How do we need to protect the natural process that the body goes through? How do we clear away the things that would get involved? And one of the things that gets in gets in the way of of healing is our own defenses that early on we learned a system of defenses that are really crucial and helpful to survive different aspects of our childhood, whether it's at the home, whether it's at school or anywhere else, we want to be very mindful of the defense structures that were necessary as Children but are no longer necessary. In fact are impacting, impeding, hindering our own emotional healing. So that's one layer of it. The other layer is another layer is what does emotional healing look like? How how do when we remove all obstacles, are we prepared for what happens? And this is a difficult area because to heal emotionally you have to feel there's no way else through that. You have to do what you weren't able to do at the time. So as an example if a child is if there's a thunderstorm happening and the child in it's right overhead and the booms are allowed and the lightning is sharp and lighting up the sky. It's going to terrify a child. The healthiest way for a child to adapt to that is to feel all that fear as it's happening with. And in the presence of in the arms of the parent or the caregiver who can say, I know it's really scary, it's okay that it's scary. I'm right here and I'm going to do everything I can to protect you and the whole idea, don't be afraid, don't be afraid, don't cry, don't cry, don't be angry, don't be angry. All of that trains us. That the very thing that we need to heal us is wrong is bad. So we have to, so we really have to relearn that. And this is where it gets tricky talk therapy is it can, it can take, it takes a very skilled therapist I think and a very willing client, a client who's got a lot of motivation to really persist in retraining somebody's system to feel when they believe that such an odd of such a deep, you know, primary consciousness level. They believe that feeling is not good, it's not safe, they're not actually supposed to feel. So, so there's some reworking there and I'll bring in one more element to this question which I think is important in psychology, we are focused on healing, but we're also focused on development. And so one of the leading questions we have when going in working with a client is how has this person advanced through their own development? Have they advanced or is there places in ways in which their development has been stunted? Are they underdeveloped? So if you have a lot of significant amount of emotional abuse um that you've been, you know, at the mercy of growing up, most likely you're embedded in a community and around people that aren't emotionally developed themselves or else they certainly wouldn't be allowing that environment to be as it is. And so it's very hard to learn how to develop emotionally around other people who aren't emotionally developed. So part of healing in a way is is actually just growing and developing thriving. Like for example, I broke my collarbone a few years ago and uh for a few months I had to I was protecting it as it was as it was healing. And at some point the bone totally healed and and the muscles were totally find around it. But my shoulder was still sitting out of place because I had all the muscles that were supposed to hold it kind of back where atrophy had lost all of their development. So even though healing quote unquote had taken place, I was unable to access my potential in my shoulder until I redeveloped those muscles. So yeah, so, so he'll, the question about healing is really important, but the language of development is almost always alongside of it for us as therapists. That's amazing. I love every point that you had. And One of the things that always fascinated me when it comes to trauma is how we can really act out of that part of ourself that was enduring that trauma. So, for example, if you know, I was 10, 11 years old when my parents separated, if I'm triggered in the right way, and you know, let's say that trauma hasn't been processed, I've done a lot of work to do that, but Let's just say it hasn't been processed. I can act out of that 10, 11 year old kid and like you said, with the defensiveness and everything that we need to really go beyond, it can be, it can be a real struggle and we see that a lot of the young people that we work with, and so it makes so much sense that that's a piece of it. And then also really feeling your feelings. I love that you touched on that because yeah, I think that feelings can become suspect and it can be this and you articulate that better than I can, but um it can get to a point where we maybe prefer to feel numb. I know for a long time, you know, as a teenager, going through everything with my family. I remember just periods of feeling so numb and uh and I've seen that a lot of the young people that we've worked with. But then finally the last point you made about healing, not just being about taking care of the wound itself, but all the other effects and continue to grow and to develop to the point where you're not that 10, 11 year old kid anymore, you're now that fully formed adults who has emotional, who has that affect maturity. And so I love how there's different components to it. I'm sure we could spend all day going through through all of these. But uh yeah, I love how you broke that all done. Yeah, awesome. I think you're right on with that understanding and thank God for the going numb. That association is crucial to getting through. It won't get you everywhere you want to go in life, but for the period of time you're trying to survive it's it's an increase, it's animated. It's a miraculous invention by the human mind really help us get through. Yeah, it's a great defense mechanism. Yeah. I always, when I'm talking with young people, I always say that imagine if you felt everything that your body can feel at that moment, you would be completely overwhelmed. It would be horrible. And so I'm with you there. What misconceptions are there around healing and the healing and growth process. Yeah, that's, that's a big question, let's see. Yeah, let's think about the ones that are most helpful here, I think probably the one that's most painful for people is this sense that once you're out of the war zone, so to speak, you should be fine. It's no longer happening. You're no longer there. That was such a long time ago. That was, can you really remember that? I mean your parents were good people. I mean your parents really you know, all of this sense that okay, okay. Maybe you know when when you know the fighting got really loud, you know? Okay. Yeah sure that makes sense that you were you were really scared then but why are you scared in your life now? You're totally fine. You're out of that. So you know, why do you need to go to therapy? You know? Okay. Was it really that bad all of this like idea that if you're out it's the misconception that that the threat has to be physical and present in order for somebody to be experiencing the threat inside. And so I would say that the healing process is as long and as as is involved as you can tolerate that that you can really take these, these are not short endeavors you can get to, you can get to new ground pretty quickly, you can start to feel better pretty quickly and and that can, that can happen in all kinds of different ways. A very kind of therapy medicine. Um sometimes even sort of just you know relocating for a little while. The novelty of it all brings on some some sense of healing but without trying to make it sound like you've got to be in therapy for decades to fully heal. I do want to say that that that healing and development especially if you've lived in a pretty, If you had chronic experiences um that have that have loaded you up in terms of the pain you're experiencing now there's quite a lot to that healing process and some of it is done in therapy, some of it's done outside of therapy, a lot of it's done just in the moment to moment, day to day life, how you're treating yourself. If we think about the, the AA model, they say 90 meetings in 90 days kind of a thing. And that idea is that healing is intense, healing requires dogged effort and you can't just show up, you know, once a week at the beginning and get what you need. You might be able to go once a week. I mean I'm talking about the allen on for a meeting right now. You might be able to handle once a week in a year or two, but for the first three months, let this be your all consuming effort. You know, make it to a meeting every single day. Read your books in between the meeting. I think healing is a lot like that, like once you decide to heal, we see this, we see this in all those videos cute videos on Youtube of animal of of terrified little puppies slowly being coaxed back into ease by, by the person that finds them and you see you've got to be pretty, you've got to be persistent. You can't just sort of give the dog a five minute dose of, of a positive environment a day and expect that dog to make any kind of progress quickly if if you really give the puppy or dog, you know, whatever. Just a lot of unending, you know, kind of chronic sort of in a, in a positive way. These experiences of, I know you're frightened but I'm still here. I'm still not going to hurt you. I'm still offering you food, I'm still offering you touch. Yeah, you're gonna that that puppy or dog is gonna heal a lot faster. Yeah, so that's kind of a long rambling answer. But those are some thoughts there. Yeah, no, there's so many lessons in what you said and one of the things that I've learned in the business world and especially bleeding teams is that if you really want to accomplish something, you have to focus so hard on it and it has to become kind of your one thing, there's that book out there, you know, the one thing and the idea behind it is that there's all these things we focus on in life that don't, aren't really the most important thing that we should be focusing on. So I love what you said, if you're in a spot where you're broken, where you're struggling, it's going to be intense. And I think that's a good reminder because we might have this idea of feeling that it's gonna be, I don't know, maybe immediately helpful. And hopefully it is, like you said, hopefully you can have some quick wins and get some positive results right away, but it's a marathon. It's not a sprint. And so I think it's really helpful to remember that. And I remember talking with some of the um, young people in our online community about how, okay, like what's that one thing for you? What is that one thing that you need to put an incredible amount of effort behind In order to see the results that you want to see that are going to improve every other area of your life to instead of splitting your attention and this and that. And so I think there's a powerful lesson in there when it comes to healing. And like we need that focus intensity to really go all in to, you know, do what you said, where maybe starting out, you need to do those 90 meetings in 90 days as the 12 step, like a model shows. So a lot of great lessons in there. I think there's also this belief that healing isn't actually possible that you can only really manage symptoms. I'm curious. Um, your, your thoughts on that, I mean, managing symptoms certainly is a part of healing, I think, But, um, but I do think there's this mindset going back to what we're talking about at the beginning of the interview where, oh, I can't really change, I can't grow. I'm kind of this fixed the whole fixed mindset where I am, who I am and I can't become any better. What's your response to that? Yeah, I mean, my own experience and what I've seen in other people is that that it's total bs that healing isn't truly possible. Yeah, Symptom management is, there's a lot of people that believe that that that really symptom management is what this is all about. And sometimes people honestly just want that, you know, it's not everybody with, uh, with, with internal pain, interior pain really once is motivated to do all the work, I think, and that's usually because they haven't come to the full, they haven't faced the fullness of the losses of their life. And the cost that it's, it's that living that way is requiring of them. But for those that really want full healing, full growth to find their upper expansive limits to become everything. They can be kind of a thing to, to find a way to live each moment or most of their moments grounded and solid and walking about tall and confident and knowing themselves and being able to just genuinely interact with other people and receive from other people and that is possible for everyone. Um, there are, they're limiting factors. Certainly there's some, we know there's some neuroma typical disorder, some genetic problems, you know? Certainly that can that can limit somebody's growth in those ways, but on average for for the general population, those that don't have genetic difficulties that don't have narrowed topicality is healing is is incredibly possible. It's not, I have a good friend who is a psychologist who says it's messy and expensive, which I find very true. I don't I haven't yet found a herd of people who haven't had to go through just a lot of work to do it, a lot of searching to get there, because oftentimes, not only are you, you're oftentimes still climbing out of some kind of abyss, it's not like you're you've kind of wiped your hands clean of the difficult stuff and now you're just trying to find, you know, like the upper ends of healing, like you're, you're in a confusing, dark, complicated place and it takes a while to find your footing and to find the to even kind of understand what that what's going on in that place and then to be able to start to climb out of it, but I know nothing. I know I know no limits on healing. Aside from the field that I mentioned, being able to get to a safe place is really important. If somebody is still living in the war zone, then healing is going to be very, very challenging in those situations, and that might be the cases where I could say, okay, maybe your best bet is symptom management, symptom reduction until you can get out of the war zone, but getting out of the war zone has got to be a priority and and once you're out of it, yeah, there's no there's no limit to how much you can heal if you want to if you want to put the time and effort into that, wow, they're so beautiful and so hopeful, as opposed to the message of like, no, you're just stuck, good luck, you know, we're not going that way, We're just not made that way our system is made to heal, we know that physically, we know that emotionally, like yeah, that's it's just wrong, I think humbly, in my own opinion, it's wrong. No, I I would stake my life on that, that it's very seriously like that I wouldn't be where I am today, if that wasn't true, you know? And so I think there's so much hope in that even when you were talking, I was like almost jumping on the inside, I'm like, yes, like this isn't this what everyone wants is this really what we long for. And I think if there's one thing that holds people back from living that life that you described so beautifully is just the belief, again that it isn't even possible because you're not going to try something that you are confident will fail. And so if you don't even believe that healing is possible, that you can become a better, stronger person, that your life can become better. You're not even going to go down that path and you are going to stay stuck. And so one challenge for everyone listening right now is okay. What are your beliefs around this? Do you believe that you can, do you believe that you can grow or do you think that you're just stuck, that you can't change that you can't grow? Give this some thought. I would challenge you there too. Just listen to what Rebecca's saying that you can heal, you can grow. And there's I think one of the most inspiring things when it comes to changing that belief is seeing people who have done it and there's a lot of stories and that's why this podcast really exist because we, in addition to experts, we bring people on who share their stories how they've healed and grown. And so listen to those podcast episodes, but I think there's there's so many great lessons in that and man yeah, it's just like my heart is like burning, to be honest with you because I think we all, we all deserve that full life to live life fully alive, to thrive, to breach our potential to become the best version of ourselves. Like you said, going back to the therapy question sometimes people, I think another barrier to it is to healing in general is that sometimes people may feel embarrassed about reaching out for help to seeing a therapist. What would you say to someone like that, listening right now? Who is afraid? Who feels embarrassed about reaching out for help? Especially scheduling a counseling session. If possible, I would say really pay attention to to that embarrassed feeling and and really try to get close to it. Really try to understand it where that embarrassment is coming from. We can be shamed out of all sorts of things that are good for us. You know, just think of people who who get teased for for being affectionate, you know, like, um, you know, or yeah, there's there's all, you know, a child that wants to get their teachers approval. Then all of a sudden all the other kids are calling that kid like, you know, whatever teacher's pet a brown nose or whatever it might be. So we can get embarrassed and feel ashamed quite easily based depending on how that's been handled previous in our lives. So if you're, if you're embarrassed about seeing a therapist or seeking help, I would say, try and take a look at that. And if it's too, if it's too challenging to figure out yourself, which it may be that that's that would be really understandable. Try and find a really trusted friend or confidant or mentor somebody who you can say, I there's this conflict going on inside of me. On the one hand, I'm hearing some things that it sounds like there's real potential and possibility out there. I really want to lean into that. And yet on the other side of me, there's a real resistance. There's a real embarrassment about going and, and yeah, so I'm, I'm, I would say don't abandon the conflict, feel the conflict and try and get as close as you can to it and understand it. And, you know, therapists have to stay confidential. There's very few things therapists have to break confidentiality for. So you don't have to tell anybody. You can just call up a therapist and say, hey, listen, I I don't know about this therapy thing. I'd like to talk to you for 15, 20 minutes. Can I ask you some questions? Maybe even schedule an initial consultation and, and you know, you know, depending on your age, if, if you're too young, you might need a parent to sign some paperwork. But almost always you can call up and have a 20 minute conversation without having to have any paperwork signed or go to a mentor coach, a teacher or somebody that you really trust. And, and and just try and talk it out a little bit, really allow for the idea that there are that we call them prediction errors in the field that, that maybe this embarrassment is not on. Maybe it's, it's, it's a, it's a, you're not standing in reality and on solid ground in the embarrassment. Maybe that's coming from um some kind of belittling or shaming or or or some it's coming from people who, who you don't trust ultimately, um that those voices. That's good advice. And I love the baby steps idea too, because I think that's been so helpful for me as well and really engaging in that conflict that you feel inside of you. I think that makes so much sense. Even an external conflict. I found that as well that if you run from in maybe you need a little bit of a break. But if you run from it, it usually just gets worse. It doesn't solve itself. You have to really kind of push into the messiness, push into the tension the conflict. And that's the only way I can get resolved quickly. I know everyone's, I think ears went up when you said there's very few things that therapists can break confidentiality for. Um what are those things? Just because I think people are wondering, what are those few things. Sure, sure. We are mandated reporters. So we have to report any reasonable suspicion of child abuse or elderly neglect. We also have the duty to warn and protect and that was born out of. I'm not sure what decades sixties or seventies maybe a psychologist knew of their client's intent to hurt somebody else. And at the time under the way things were at the time didn't disclose it to anybody didn't release it. And that client went ahead and, and hurt the other person. So we now have the duty to warn and protect. Which means if we believe our clients are a threat of harm to themselves or somebody else, we have to, you know, take steps to protect people. Whether that's, if it's a child, then I speak with their parents. If it's an adult, you know, might have to be authority figures or, you know, like law lock or any kind of figures. And then finally, judges have the right to subpoena records. So if any client of any of mine or somebody else's ends up in the court of law, the judge may just demand to see the file and there's nothing we can do to prevent that. Um, I mean, there's an attempt, you can, you can try to quash it, but usually that doesn't work. So other than that the therapist can't break confidentiality. The setting is really designed very well to protect the confidence of the client. Okay. And just to give people confidence in this to those things aren't super common, right? Especially the legal like judicial and the judge is very uncommon. And often times, you know, if a client, if I'm working with a client, especially the first one, the mandated reporter around child abuse. Sometimes these things have already been reported the, the importance there is, and sometimes it's it's past the statute of limitations. So if or sometimes the perpetrator is now deceased. There's all kinds of ways in which that that's not quite, that's not so black and white there. It's not like we are always reporting every single time we hear of this, there's there's plenty of situations in which it's already been reported or like I said, the person is no longer alive or the statute of limited. Each state has different laws around that. Okay, that makes so much sense. Thanks for answering that because I think that could be a barrier for people and so thanks for making it simple. If someone wants to work with you, what are the steps that they should take? I have a website specifically designated for the safe and sound protocol. That's Denver safe and sound dot com. So and on there you can sign up for a quick and easy 15 minute consultation. You can also email me directly through that that website I have in addition to providing the safe and sound protocol. I also work with clients therapeutically for therapy as well as provide psychological assessments. Um you can reach me also for that through the Denver safe and sound website. Then my personal individual website for that is just my name Rebecca Showalter side dot com. So email is almost always the best way I, you know, phone calls work as well but I seem to not be able to keep my voicemail box from being perpetually full. I just gotta go through and like erase a ton of stuff there. But I think that's been a barrier sometimes that sometimes that voice mailbox gets full. Yeah, okay, that makes so much sense. Is there anything else that you offer for people like that maybe want to follow you in your work but aren't ready to maybe work with you? I know you mentioned the website, but is there anything else that they can do to follow you? Not at this point, I mean I'm on the cusp of having a instagram account up and going again, that would be my name, Rebecca shoulder side. People are happy to look for me. There's no content yet, but hopefully there will be uh in the coming, maybe this will, will give me this will give me a good kick start. I can put some content up before this gets out. Yeah, but as of as of right now, those are the only ways the safe and sound. I should say this, the safe and sound protocol is a very quick intervention and it doesn't require, it's best done in conjunction with therapy, but it doesn't require being done in therapy. So if somebody wanted to work with me for the safe and sound protocol, we're talking about five hours of music usually spread over 10 ish days and you you can do it remotely um I would just be in touch via text or email to kind of see monitor, see how things are going, but that's a fairly low level interaction with me. Um, and it tends to be pretty quick in terms of an intervention. So that's amazing. And I think there's a lot of people listening right now who who do need that if they're outside of colorado, are you licensed in other states or can they do that? Even if they're outside of Colorado? The safe and sound protocol, the safe and sound protocol can be done anywhere since it's not a technical psychologist client relationship. Yeah, I don't need to be licensed in this state for therapy. There are a number of states I'm licensed in and you can see that on my website, colorado obviously. And then I'm part of site packed, which just means I can work via zoom and about 20 to 25 different states and more states are jumping on that all the time. So, great, okay, I'm happy to hear about that. I need to look into that more because it's such a barrier for a lot of people getting help from a competent therapist. So thanks for mentioning that I want to give you the final word first. Thank you so much for your time and your expertise. It's really amazing to speak with you. Um, I've really enjoyed this conversation. I've learned a lot personally. And so thank you so much. I know our listeners have as well give you want to give you the final word what encouragement when you give to anyone listening right now who who feel stuck, who feels broken because of everything that's happened in their family, their parents divorce or a lot of dysfunction, just the breakdown of their family. What encouragement would you give them? Yeah, great question. And likewise, I've really enjoyed being here. I would say work hard uh persist at at finding what works for you. You're gonna, you if people have lots of advice and and sometimes the advice is gonna stick and sometimes it's not, we live in a world, especially if you have access to the internet where there's so much on Youtube. And honestly, I think there are tons of good, there's so much good content on Youtube and all all of these areas. I would say start digging and find people that whose whose voice whose language whose message content really hits home and then listen to those as much as is this good for you? You know, really pay attention to. Does this bring me to a calmer better place? Does it, does it help clarify some things? Do I feel more solid and upright when I'm listening to this and if not go ahead and pause it and move on. So even if the idea of of a more formal intervention or therapy is is not possible for whatever reason right now, or not even something you're interested in pursuing doggedly pursue your own healing. It will wait for you. You're you're your demons will wait for you until you face them and master them. They're not going to go anywhere on their own. So, each, each person's journey to that is incredibly unique and different and it's very important that it's, it's that you have ownership and agency in that. So so start where it feels right to start, start by, you know? Yeah, finding some good youtube channels or start by listening to the music where a lot of people find that's very helpful, like artists who have been through similar things and write about it in their music. Like get like explore is what I would say, get out there and see what's out there. See what free content you can find and then of course feel free to to reach out to me even if you're not at all sure what you want the next step to be, I'd be happy to to at least give you some ideas if you're interested in trying the safe and sound protocol. A few of the benefits that Dr Showalter has seen in her patients. One it helps to reduce social anxiety and allows people to laugh and have more fun. It helps them to think and even talk about past trauma without feeling as anxious or triggered one woman who went through the protocol, even overcame her fear of being hugged and started to show more affection to her friends. It helped another woman navigate the horrible news of her miscarriage in a calm way instead of shutting down or going numb as she had in the past and overall it just helps people to regulate their emotions, meaning either they don't get upset as easily or if they do, they're able to calm themselves more quickly, feel safer and less afraid. So if you want to try the safe and sound protocol, you can sign up or watch the video about the protocol at Dr Rebecca's website. Rebecca show walter P S D dot com or just click on the link in the show notes. Now, if you're not able to work with dr Rebecca, you're in luck restored. We're building a network of counselors and coaches that we vet trust and recommend by using our network. It's gonna save you a lot of time and effort in searching for a counselor or coach will also connect you with a trained professional who can give you the help and tools you need to heal so you can feel whole again and thrive in life. So if you want to make use of our network, just go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching. Just fill out the form. It's really quick, maybe 60 seconds and then we'll connect you with the counselor coach or even a spiritual director. Once we find one for you again, go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching or just click on the link in the show notes, Thank you so much for listening. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you're not alone, we're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

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#080: My Parents’ Divorce Made Me Question Everything | Paula Chambers, PhD

For so many of us, our parents’ divorce causes us to question everything — especially if it came out of the blue. We ask ourselves: What won’t fall apart? We may even go through life feeling like there’s a disaster around every corner and as a result, so often we play it safe in life.

For so many of us, our parents’ divorce causes us to question everything — especially if it came out of the blue. We ask ourselves: What won’t fall apart? We may even go through life feeling like there’s a disaster around every corner and as a result, so often we play it safe in life. 

We discuss that and more in this episode as my guest shares:

  • How she blamed herself for the breakdown of her parents’ marriage

  • How nobody was there for her

  • How she struggled with low self-esteem, self-harm, and acting out sexually

  • How she never had children because she feared she couldn’t be a good mom

Share your story

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

For so many of us who come from broken families, our parents' divorce caused us to question everything, especially if it came out of the blue. We ask ourselves if my family is meant to be in my foundation in life, and that fell apart, well what won't fall apart? And we may even go through life feeling like there's a disaster around every corner.

And as a result, so often we play it safe in. We discussed that and so much more in this episode as my guest shares how she felt powerless and even blamed herself as a five year old girl for the breakdown of her parents' marriage. We talk about how nobody was there for her when she needed it the most.

So sad and so wrong, and that's what we're trying to change. Hair restored, she vulnerably shares how she struggled with low self-esteem, self-harm, and even acting out sexually. We even discussed why she fell into that and what she was seeking in that behavior. She mentions how her parents' broken marriage has even affected her own marriage.

She shares a big reason that she never had children is because she was afraid. That she couldn't be a good mom, largely because of her broken family, and she shares what's helped her heal and how her life is different now. So keep listening.

Welcome to the Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents'. Divorce, separation, or broken marriage so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for joining us. This is Episode. Before I introduce my guest, if you would like to share your story with us at Restored, we'd love to hear it.

There's three easy steps to do it, but first, some of the benefits of sharing your story, reflecting on your story is actually healing for you on a neural, biological level. It actually makes your brain healthier writing your story. Is actually healing as well. Studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed, they're less anxious, they're healthier, and they're happier.

And sharing your story with someone is healing too on a neuro biological level. Not just keeping it to yourself or writing it for yourself, but actually sharing it with someone else who can receive it, who can listen to it, who can read it with. Also sharing your story can give guidance and hope to people who are struggling, who are in a similar spot that you were.

Now, if you wanna share your story, there's three easy steps. Just go to restored ministry.com/story can restored ministry ministry singular.com/story. On that page, the formal guide you and telling a really quick version of your. And then we'll take it and turn it into an anonymous blog article. So if you want to go ahead and share your story now, I'll also remind you at the end of the episode to do so, you could also just click the link in the show notes if you want to, or go to resort ministry.com/story.

My guest today is Paula Chambers. Paula Woods raised in Los Angeles by an actress, mom and filmmaker dad. Paula grew up steeped in the show business and spent her twenties in that world. She studied film at Cal Arts and worked as an assistant director in movies and television for five years. She changed careers at 29 and spent the next decade in graduate school preparing to be an English professor where she won teaching awards.

She started a business called Versatile PhD, a business that helped thousands of graduate students to pursue careers outside academia. After selling that business, she began teaching a dance fitness class, which she turned into another business. Paula is passionate about healing, about growing and personal responsibility.

She resides in California and is happily married to her husband, Gary. So here's my conversation with Paula Chambers.

Paula, it's great to have you in the show. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you for having me. I am so happy to be in this beautiful space that you've created. Thank you and, uh, I've been looking forward to this conversation. It's great to have you here, like I said, and I'd like to just dive right in, if that's okay.

How old were you when your parents separated and divorced and what happened? Uh, I was five. Um, I was born in New York in the 1960s into a show business family. My mom was an actress and my father was a director and they were both writers. They were both very smart and charismatic people. My dad came across as, uh, really intelligent and competent and funny.

He has a goofball side that earned him a lot of friends . And, uh, my mom is, uh, warm and charming and absolutely gorgeous. So they were both. I think extra compelling people. Every child is fascinated by their parents, but my parents actually were legitimately fascinating people. Um, but they both had, had developmental trauma in their childhood, of course, which I only know now as an adult.

They both had, had really difficult, really terrible parenting from, uh, from both of their parents and, uh, that left them. I now understand. Damaged, deeply damaged and unable to have the kind of close, intimate relationship that they wanted and that they needed. And it also didn't help that my father was away a lot for his work.

He was a, uh, a director of training and educational films. He was hired by government agencies and corporations to make films about things, you know, that were important, films that were instructive. So he was on the road a lot. He worked in Washington DC shooting medical documentaries at Walter Reed Medical Hospital, and all kinds of other interest.

Assignments, but that took him away from our home. So I'm sure that could not have been a positive influence on their marriage. They were married for nine years. They had to work really hard to have me. Uh, my father was especially passionate about having a child and he hoped for a girl and they finally had me in year four of their nine year marriage.

Uh, their problems as a couple got serious in year seven. And they divorced in year eight when I was five, and uh, I was the only child, which is one of the things that made the effects of the divorce extra hard on me that I didn't have a sibling to weather the storm with. I was all alone. Another thing that made it hard on me is that there.

There was no yelling. There were no fights. Nobody was awful. And I learned from your show that that's called a low conflict divorce, which research has shown is the most damaging to the children because it comes outta nowhere. Like what? What? And if you can't trust, What your eyes tell you. Everything looked fine right to me, but if you, But then it wasn't, and so it makes you question just everything.

Mm-hmm. , it makes you question all of your perceptions and have a persistent lack of confidence in your own perceptions of the world. I found a letter recently that my mother wrote to her mother telling her mother about the divorce. She said that, uh, she and my father had been pretending things were okay for years, but in the last year, they realized that they had to either live a pretend life for the rest of their lives or break.

And create new lives separately. They chose the latter, partly because they were starting to see that the tension between them, which was harder and harder to pretend didn't exist, was finally affecting me. My mom said it was showing in my behavior. She wasn't specific. I don't know what I would've been doing as a four year old, noticing my parents.

Something was wrong, but not knowing what and feeling, you know, I don't know what I was doing, but I must have felt puzzled, like, what's going on? I must have felt scared. You know what? Things are unstable. I can't trust my environment. And I'm sure that I felt powerless cuz in fact, I was powerless. I didn't have the ability to fix their marriage.

I was five. And I wasn't them, so I was powerless. So they divorced when I was five, and I actually remember them saying, It's not your fault. But because I was five, I was developmentally unable to hear that. I was unable to take that in. I now know that four and five year olds are just starting to become independent, just starting to discover themselves as people, Hey, I could do this.

Maybe I'd like to do. And yet they're still young enough to, to believe that everything that happens in their world happened because of them. So that time, especially for an only child, Is a very tough time for parents to divorce because I got, I as a five year old got the message that I obviously had been bad.

That's something I had done or some way I was being, as I was trying out being Paula and learning what being Paula is, Apparently Paula is no good because Paula must have caused. This terrible thing to happen. What other reason could there be, Right? Yeah. To a five year old. There can't be another reason.

I was very deeply affected and I feel today also, that not enough space was made for me and my feelings at the time. Now, this was the 1960s, so times are different today I hope. But you know, I was just the five year old and I was very important, but I was not. You know nobody, I don't remember anyone holding me and just inviting me to just cry and keep crying.

I don't remember them asking me what I feel. Maybe they did. I don't remember. I felt unseen. I felt unseen, unheard and subordinate to them. Less important than them, which with charismatic. People is extra easy to feel, you know, they are so fascinating and so powerful. I, you know, so the downstream consequences for, for me as my life went on the.

Was that I had extremely low self-esteem starting in, starting then, and it really didn't get really good, honestly, until about 10 years ago. Um, it slowly crawled forward, but it was terrible throughout my childhood. I developed a stutter right after the divorce, um, and the stutter, of course. Oh, that did wonders for me on the playground.

You know, I mean, I was a magnet. For merciless teasing. So now I was also teased and bullied and pushed around at school. So my self-esteem got even lower and those neural pathways saying I am bad, I am bad, got carved even deeper. I had. More difficulty with my father, even though he was a highly engaged and loyal, divorced father for the era.

He wrote me a letter every day and called me on the phone every night. You could hardly ask for a more engaged father. I should add, my mother moved me to California, so that's why all the letters and the calls instead of the visits. But, um, he really did a champion job of staying in touch with me, and yet the divorce affected him too.

He felt really terrible about himself and his failure, and he compensated unfortunately by becoming kind of a narciss. And so his narcissism then was a downstream effect on him that totally affected me. I had a lot of conflicts with him, and it was even more all about him and not about me. He never asked my opinion.

He declaimed and proclaimed this is how it is, and so I again was, was hampered in my natural human need to develop my own opinions and perspectives. As a young adult, I engaged in self harm. I drank, I took drugs, and I was very promiscuous. Honestly, it's a miracle that nothing terrible happened to me.

It's a miracle that I never got pregnant or raped or killed. Nothing bad happened to me. I was so lucky. I'm so grateful to whatever guardian, angel, if you will, must have been looking out for me cuz I was putting myself in harm's way. Regularly. So I look back at those behaviors now and I just feel like, no, you are so much better than that.

I wish I could re mother myself at that time. And also, I did not develop real emotional independence until well into adulthood. I was incredibly delayed in growing out of needing to please my. My career choices were driven by a combination of healthy reasons, like being genuinely interested in a field and also unhealthy reasons.

I know my mother would be proud of me if I did this. I know my father would respect this, and there was always a need to prove to them that I was a good daughter after all, and I now know I never had to prove that I was always a good daughter. They never thought otherwise. It wasn't my fault that they got divorced.

That was a lie that my, you know, five year old brain had no choice. But tell me. Yeah, and I was a late bloomer also in my romantic relationships, starting with promiscuity in my late teens and early twenties. It took me a long time to get better and better boyfriends, you know, nicer and nicer people, better and better quality Relat.

Until I finally met the man I was to marry when I was 34 and we married at 38. Not ridiculously late, not ridiculous. But you know, on the late side, and I also did not have children, which again is not terrible. Um, but the main reasons were to really be honest with you and your listeners because I didn't wanna put anyone else through what I had gone through, and I didn't believe in my ability to be a good mother.

Wow, because I, I hadn't yet really discovered all of the wonderful things that are Paula. I didn't love myself enough to believe that I could be a good mom. So I didn't have children. I don't actually honestly regret that today. I never felt a giant stirring of maternal need. So, you know, that worked out.

I got to do a lot of great things because I didn't have children. So I'm not, you know, playing the violin here. I'm just saying it affected my life. Uh, it might have gone differently, but for the effects of the divorce. Wow. Thank you for sharing. So vulnerably and. Your story is, uh, incredible, like you've been through so much and there's so much I wanna say to kind of narrow it in one, when it comes to our parents experiencing trauma, we see that all the time that that trauma, that brokenness gets passed on often for generations, which is so sad.

And that's why we exist because we wanna. Putting into that, wanna break that cycle, and I know you get that going to the timeline of your parents' divorce. Uh, I'm sure you know this, but for our listeners, if you don't know this, I've seen data from the US Census that says on average for first marriages, typically the separation happens seven years in, and then the divorce takes one year.

So at the eight year, There's a divorce. So your parents actually were right on that timeline, which is really fascinating. Um, I can't imagine, you know, you going through that alone, no one was there for you. Uh, it's so tragic. It breaks my heart thinking to the younger you and I didn't see that a lot. Now we have a friend who's going through a divorce.

My friend, I have a friend who's going through a divorce and it's just the whole situation breaks my heart. And, uh, she's, the, our friend has been through a lot, but she has a daughter who, um, I think she's maybe three now, maybe. Whenever I see her, I just wanna like, like you said, I just wanna wrap her in my arms.

My heart just breaks for her. I know what she's going through and I just wish I could spare her all that pain and protect her from, you know, everything that's coming at her both now and in the future as we both well know, so, so much there to to comment on. I just wanted to kind of validate you on those few things when it comes to the low self-esteem.

Having spoken with you separately and obviously now in this show. You strike me as a very confident person now. So I wanna hone in on that because this is a common struggle for people like us who come from broken families. How did you become so confident? How did you go from the low self-esteem to where you are now feeling comfortable in your own skin and and confident to the point where you can get up and give talks in front of audiences and do all these amazing public eye sorts of activities.

So I'm curious, how did you become that? Part of it is my, just my native temperament. I am, Now that I know who Paula is, I can tell you that I enjoy communicating. I enjoy speaking. I enjoy speaking live. I enjoy writing. I. It's part of who I am, and I think it would've been part of who I am, no matter whether there had been a divorce or not, no matter whether my parents had been better able to make their marriage work or not.

I think that was just an inborn part of me that I would one day be a teacher speaker or deter some blend of that. Sure. But, uh, that aside, I have to acknowledge the many rich resources that have been. Str upon my forward path as I grew up through my adulthood. My adulthood has been infinitely better than my childhood.

Mm. And it is. I did have a lot of therapy. I was, I've been fortunate to be well resourced, to be able to have therapy. Anytime I wanted, and I've certainly had a lot of it and that was somewhat helpful. I've been fortunate also to have loads of education. Education has been fantastic for me. I loved learning about things that interested me.

And looking back, I can see how. Pursuing education has been a way that I have found of finding out more about who Paula is, you know, observing my interests as they develop, and then spending more time learning, choosing those classes and writing that paper. It has been a nice, delayed, but nonetheless valuable way of discovering Paula.

And, uh, I've been very lucky to find marvelous friends who are very different from me in many ways, but who see me, who make me feel seen and loved as I am accepted. When I started working at the Renaissance Fair in my late teens, that's when I met these fantastic people. Who themselves were the misfit toys of the world, you know?

And they, they welcomed me and they saw me and they said, Yeah, that's great. Be that, be you. And I met some of my closest friends there today, and they have been incredibly helpful. Uh, I've gone through my adult life with them, um, and then a little later finding my husband, who I have to say is uniquely qualified, uniquely well.

Created to make me feel loved. An issue in my childhood in the divorce was that I didn't feel seen and heard. My husband makes me feel incredibly seen and heard. He loves to listen to my voice. He loves to see my face. He's very slow to come to a conclusion about something. He gathers a lot of data really different from me.

He gathers a lot of data before he decides. That something is an observable, verifiable, evidence based thing, and it, he was, you know, it took him six months of dating me before he was able to say that I am honest, and it meant so much more coming from him. I had never met a person like that who was so, Interested in granular data and lots of it before reaching any conclusions about anything.

And so when he says something about me, I know it's true because it is totally evidence based. It's not hype or fantasy. As in stark contrast to how my parents were being artists, they're given to fantasy and imagination to begin with. Not a sin, but having being damaged that made themself in, self-absorbed and not so able to see me.

They would project onto me instead of seeing me. It was the best they could do, but my husband. He doesn't project anything . He's like, If he sees something about me and he says it, I'm sure it's true. That was very helpful. Yeah, and to have his daily devotion, his daily presence, his daily love, it was just, it filled in all the love gaps that the divorce left in my heart.

And, uh, I would also credit having career opportunities, having many, because of my education and my temperament being, um, ready and willing to be a little bolder and make bolder choices. I have had several experiences, work experiences that have shown me that I can make a positive difference in the world.

Is part of it related to my damage from the divorce, but not in a bad way. The fact that I felt I could have no impact on what was happening with them, and in fact I was right, I could not made me yearn to have an impact on something. And so when I was an English composition teacher, while I was getting my PhD, I had an impact.

I had, I helped these young people learn how to. And that was thrilling. And then later as a grant writer, I raised money that was used for the mission of my organization, which I cared about. So, boom, because of my writing, I was able to make a difference in the world. A little more recently, my second to last career, having the opportunity to start a community for humanities, PhD students who are interested in non-academic careers.

Now, this is a little obscure. Most people think that a PhD has all the doors of the world open to them, but it is not. So many, many, uh, PhDs go in because they want an academic career. They wanna be professors, but they discover. When it's too late to stop. When they're almost done, they discover that there aren't the jobs out there.

And so it's like, well, now what? Yeah. And they feel like they're the losers, you know? And, but I created the first ever online community for humanities PhD students interested in non-academic careers. And that community, I later upgraded it into a socially positive business called Versatile PhD, and my message to them, As to myself at the time was you are versatile.

You can do many things, move in many directions. So those work experiences helped me discover the power that I do have to influence the things that I can influence, and that has been very healing for me. So all of those things, those, those career moves, they're all kind of different. You know, I haven't been doing one thing my whole life.

It's been a, a, a series of chapters, but every chapter has unfolded and revealed something wonderful about myself, to myself, and has left the world a little bit better than I found it, and most recently. Now I , believe it or not, I'm still incredulous myself. I sold versatile PhD five years ago in order to become a , a Mindful Movement teacher, I teach a class called Nia Technique, which is a low impact, whole body joy based workout.

And I, this is what I do now. I'm lucky that I was able to sell my business and accept a much, much, much lower income to do this thing that I love. But neo technique has been something that when I discovered as a student, that's when my own healing really accelerated. I have to acknowledge there was a synergistic forward progress, as I've described through all those careers, through my marriage, through my friends.

All of that helped. But after all that help, Finding neo technique really sent me flying and made me heal, helped me heal myself and become, uh, the person that I am today. So good. Thank you for going through that and I can tell why those experiences would make you more confident to going back to relationships and.

Marriage. I'm curious, in addition to what you've already told us, um, how have you seen the breakdown of your family, your parents' divorce, affect your relationships and your marriage? In addition to what you've already told us? I would say that my low self-esteem has affected all of my relationships. The ones, the, the friendships that didn't get to happen because I was too needy.

The friendships that did happen, but that I could not receive all of the love and joy that there was there for me to receive. You know, you can pour a bucket into a thimble, but the thimble is only gonna take away a thi full of the water in the bucket. And I'm sure that there was a lot more love and acceptance out there for.

The whole time, but I kept feeling insecure and uncertain and am I a good person and needing a lot of reassurance, you know? So I missed out on a lot of joy and a lot of love and a lot of fun by constantly being so interrogating myself and being hard on myself and worrying that I'm not good. That has affected all of my relationships, friendships, et cetera, and it, it has, oh yes, it has affected my marriage too.

All marriages have issues and one of ours is that I am still. Even today, very poisoned by my father's hatred of stupidity. This is one of the things I mentioned. He kind of spun out into a degree of narcissism after the divorce. And his intelligence was one of the things that he based his new propped up self-esteem on.

And when I was with him, he would, you know, fairly often whenever he would encounter something stupid, which the world being full of stupidity happened often he would say, Ugh. That was stupid. That person, she's so stupid. What stupid thing to say. And just the way he said stupid, that first syllable stupid was like a blow stupid.

And I thought that the message I got from that is, whatever I am in this life, Ed, I'd better not be stupid. Mm-hmm. . And so I have even today a corrosive little thread. Of hatred, of stupidity, of contempt, of stupidity. Mm-hmm. and my husband and I have very different minds, different temperaments, and we think differently.

And so sometimes we each do things that the other person thinks are stupid. I see different things when I walk into a room than he does, and when I think he has done something stupid. Especially when I'm, when we're under pressure, you know, like, Let's, let's go, let's get out the door. Let's get ready for the party or whatever.

You know, I feel myself starting to feel contemptuous of him and starting to say, just to speak to him in an unkind tone that I'm too embarrassed to imitate myself doing. So that is the, the ghost of my fetishistic need to please my father, even when he was like super screwed up. Still lives on in my consciousness and my relationships today.

No, it makes so much sense. And again, you can see that thread, you can see that theme in your life and how impactful that original event was to you. And it makes so much sense and in so many ways, it just breaks my heart to, to see what you went through, what you struggled with, um, but it's also beautiful how you've been able to transform that into something.

Uh, really good. And that's my next question for you. You already touched on a lot of ways in which you have healed. Is there anything you would add to. Yes. I wanna talk more about the body and its role in my healing. I've always loved to dance and move. Well, always isn't true. When I was a child, I didn't have the confidence, the self esteem, to actually dare to dance at a party.

Later in my twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, et cetera. I have always chosen and it, uh, chosen dance activities, amateur dance activities like dancing at the Renaissance Fair, you know, English country dance, for example. And I've always really enjoyed, I have great sense of rhythm. I love, I love the movement.

I like moving my body. It's fun for me. So maybe there are people out there who just simply don't like to move, don't like to dance, they're not dancers. Okay. This part maybe won't be helpful to them so much. When I discovered Nia technique is, uh, it was a very powerful turning point because I had never been told to sense my body before.

Nia is a mindful dance fitness practice. It is not a performing art. It is a sensory movement practice where the goal is to sense your body while moving to this beautiful music. Doing these beautiful, interesting, fun, not too hard movements and sensing my body while moving was an entirely new concept to me when I discovered Nia in my forties.

And then, and Nia also teaches you that your body has a voice. Your body has things to say to. But it only has the voice of sensation. So if you are, if you are listening to your body, if you're sensing your body, you are listening to your body's voice. And so I began to regard my body as a source of truth, a source of my identity.

I developed a whole new body based sense of self. And the great thing about sensing my body, speaking only for myself, is that I realized, Oh my God, this information, when I am moving my body, nobody but me even has access to that data to refute it or debate it. Right. This is information for me alone. Only I know what my body feels like doing.

This moves to this music on this day, and that was incredibly healing for me. Maybe it had that big effect on me because as I said, I've always loved to dance, so I'm a, you know, dancer type. So maybe it's just in my temperament, but whatever. I found this medium and it helped me. Incredibly much and so much that a few years later I decided to become a teacher.

And now as Ania teacher, I am doing all, all, you can see all the themes of my life braided together. I'm teaching, I'm dancing. I'm being seen, I'm being heard. It's incredible. I love. Thanks for sharing and No, it makes sense and to some people listening, you know, that might not be a tool that you would use for healing, but everyone you know, has different ways of coping and dealing and, and finding healing.

And one of the things that I think, um, might be helpful to people who might be a little bit thrown off by this idea is that our bodies do keep. The trauma, uh, that we've endured on some level, and there's a whole book on this. The body keeps the score and it's the idea that, yeah, our bodies, the basic idea is that our bodies are impacted by the trauma that we endured, the emotional trauma and physical trauma we've endured.

Uh, a typical example of a physical trauma would be. You know, if you're a soldier who gets blown up or you're in a car accident, you might end up forming a hunch as if you're preparing to be hit by the car again. And so your body can carry that trauma with you. And so for me personally, you know, I, I'm not, um, huge into dance, but I, I'm am into fitness.

I love, um, I'm not as active now. I don't wanna give him the impression that I'm like this, uh, athletic fitness expert by any means. In the past, you know, I, uh, was an athlete all my life and I did CrossFit. I did kickboxing, and so you reminded me of that too, which for me, those things were helpful and healing.

They were honestly coping mechanisms for me to get a lot of stress out and to deal with, you know, the things I was juggling in my life at the time, especially going through the, a lot of the dysfunction in my family. And so, uh, yeah, I remember too when things would get really rough at home. I would go downstairs and I would hit a punching back hard, and that was helpful for me to, to use my body and this whole idea.

Mind over matter is interesting, but I've heard people say body over mind in some ways can be really helpful, especially if you get caught in your mind with a lot of anxiety. So I appreciate you going through that and if you guys wanna pick up that book, The Body Keeps the score. I haven't read it yet, I wanna read it, but that's where some of these ideas come from, whether or not you end up going down the route of doing some sort of dance fitness or not.

Uh, we're close to our time here, so I wanted to ask you, you know, Been through a lot. You've found a lot of healing. How is your life different now that you've found that healing and you've grown? My life is very different because on the inside it looks the same on the outside, but on the inside, my experience of my life is much, much, much better now that I have really fully taken charge of defining.

That I know who Paula is and I'm still learning too. I'm still evolving too. So Paula is not a static work of art that's finished, but I am, I'm the driver and I'm, I, I get to decide, I'm a decider of what happens in my life and not, you know, we don't have control over everything in our lives, but I am the decider of how I respond to the things that.

I am much better able to, uh, resist being triggered in difficult situations now, and I must say the pandemic was a blessing to my healing, though I would gladly give it all back if the pandemic could not happen. Fair, but, Slowing way down. I finally took the advice of so many people. People have been telling me all my life, Oh, Paula, you really should try meditation.

So I finally went, Oh, all right. I'll just sit and I'll breathe and sense my breathing. And it helped so much. I discovered that there was. That the, that my perceiving unit that is the Paula inside of Paula, you know, is inside my breath. And by sensing my breath, I was able to feel like I was cradling my young self, cradling my four year old self.

Sometimes tears would come, sometimes they wouldn't. But by focusing on my breath and imagining that baby Paula. Was inside the loop of inhale and exhale. I made myself feel seen and embraced and cared about, and then I added affirmations onto that. I started saying affirmations that counteracted the trauma that I experienced.

I said, for example, I am a good person. I am a good person when I do good things, and also when I make mistakes gain. Forget something or screw up. I am a good person 24 7 365. So in the after meditating, even just for five minutes, you know, just 40 or 50 breaths, and then saying those positive things to myself, I started to hear it and believe it.

Okay. Thank you so much. And it's amazing. One of the transformations that stuck out to me in this conversation is that you went from struggling with the stutter to now being, you know, in order as, as you said, at a PhD in composition and it's, it's quite incredible. So that's for some, uh, I think it's inspiring for a lot of people listening right now.

If your parents were listening right now, what would you want them to know? I would want them to know that I see. The trauma that they went through in their childhood, I understand that it must have been so hard for them to reach out to each other in the ways that each of them needed, and I don't blame them for getting that divorce.

And I thank them for giving me better parenting than they themselves received. You know, I may have my complaints and I do, but my ability to say that to them, to acknowledge that they nonetheless made progress, they did better with me than had been given to them. That's, that's all a person can really hope for, is to do better, and they really did better, and I would thank them for all of the resources and love and encouragement that they were able to give me.

I would assure them that I am going to be. I love that. I love how you're able to be honest, but at the same time, honor your parents in the sense that they did help you, they did love you, but again, still acknowledge the shortcomings without, you know, giving out any sort of hate or spite to them. So thank you for adding that balance.

I think it's a beautiful example for all of us who come from broken families. How has Restored help? Do you mention separately to me that this has been helpful for you? I'm not tooting our own horn, but I'm just curious, anyone listening maybe who hasn't, uh, listened to the podcast or interacted with a nonprofit, uh, how has it helped?

For me restored has helped me feel seen and cared about those themes, that the fact that you have this podcast intended to help children of divorce, even though I'm no longer a child, it really has helped my inner child feel cared about. And seen, and also some of the content of your podcast, A lot of the content.

I love listening to the stories of other children of divorce, and they often make me feel lucky because, God, that didn't happen to me. You know, , but. But they're, but you choose people with compelling voices and I enjoy listening to them. And lastly, uh, one of your episodes, you presented a review of scholarly research on the impact of divorce on children.

And as a former academic, that has a high appeal to me. I'm very interested in readings. Studies and meta analyses that merge all the studies that have been done into a different topic, into one sort of mass conclusion. What do we know about this? It was from that episode in particular that I learned that the low conflict divorce is the most damaging to children.

That was like, Well, no wonder. Thank you because, you know, raised in an affluent professional household where nobody was hitting each other. I have often not only felt terrible, but felt crazy for feeling terrible. So thank you for that and your voice. If I may say, your voice has a soothing quality that my inner child really hears and loves, and I wanna suggest that with your friend's daughter, you might be a safe place where she can just be.

Just watch her, see her, listen to her, pay attention to her. Don't even have to say anything magical or special. Just your attention is healing. Thank you. No, that's incredible advice and thanks for the compliments. I really appreciate that and I appreciate the fact that, um, yeah, you found this helpful. I'm really, I'm so glad you're the reason we do this.

And so I'm, I'm really honored that we've been a part of your story and just there to help guide you in little ways and you've done the rest. You're the hero. So thank you, uh, for mentioning that and I've learned a lot. The research too. It was very eye opening for me to understand that about low conflict divorces as well.

Paula, if people want to, uh, learn more about you and connect with you, how could they do that? My website is www.paulachambers.me. Which now after this interview, I think, Oh, of course it's me, dot com and.net were not available, but.me was available, so that's when I used Paula chambers.me. You can read more about me, you can invite me to be a guest on another podcast.

You can take one of my. Online at NEO classes, I teach exclusively online right now so anyone can access my NEO classes. You don't need any prior experience. Dance talent. Forget it. Don't need it. It's not a performing art. All you need is decent internet and about eight by eight of floor space. And in fact, your listeners can have a free neo class by going to my website and signing up for a single drop in class using discount code restored all caps restored.

That'll get you a free neo class. Thank you so much. If you guys wanna check out that, uh, fitness cardio dance movement class, you can do that as well. And like Paula said, she's the one who will be guiding you through that. Thank you so much. Thanks for your time, Paul. I really appreciate you again, being so vulnerable and sharing the lessons that you've learned through your life and the difficult things you've.

Been through, but it's amazing to see that you've come through the other side. I know you're continuing to heal and grow, but it's amazing to see the progress that you've made. So thank you so much. I'm honored to hear your story and to, uh, walk through this conversation with you. I wanna give you the last word.

What words of encouragement or advice would you give to someone who, who feels broken? Who feels stuck in, in life because of their parents' divorce, because of the broken marriage? I would say sense your body, even if it's only as simple as sensing your breathing when you're driving in the car or touching your pants when you're under the dining table, rubbing your thighs something sensory and just listen.

Sense your body with no judgment, sense with a spirit of inquiry.

In case you're wondering. Episode 33 is the episode that breaks down and simplifies the 67 different studies on children of divorce that Paula mentioned. Again, that's episode 33 in case you wanna listen to. The question I have for you guys to reflect on today is what was, or maybe even, is the desire at the core of the unhealthy behavior you've engaged in like Paula?

Maybe it's just a desire to be seen underneath a lot of my own mistakes was a desire just to feel wanted. What about you? Give that some thought. Once you understand that, it's much easier than to fill that need, fill that desire in a healthy way, and to avoid the unhealthy, vicious behavior. As a reminder, if you wanna share your story with us, we'd love to hear it.

You can just go to restoredministry.com/story or just click on the link in the show. Thank you so much for listening. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, shared this podcast with them, always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

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#079: Religious Art for Adult Children of Divorce | Dr. Daniel Meola & Michael Corsini

Art is healing. If you’re not an artistic person, that might seem odd. But it’s true.

Art is healing. If you’re not an artistic person, that might seem odd. But it’s true. In this episode, we discuss why and how art can be healing and more:

  • What type of art has been healing for our guests

  • How art can help people from broken families

  • A piece of religious art specifically for Catholic/Christian adult children of divorce

Dr. Daniel: Buy the artwork or sign up for the retreat

Mike: View his artwork

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you're not an artistic person or someone who enjoys art, the idea that art can be healing might seem odd to you, but it's absolutely true. And in this episode, we explore why that is and how art can be healing. And when I say art, I don't just mean paintings, but really any type of art, including music, movies shows, novels, statues, poems, paintings, and so much more.

In this episode, my guests and I discuss what type of art has been healing for each of us. Mine happens to be a movie which I'll tell you about in the episode. And more specifically, we talk about how art can help people like us from broken families. We also discuss a piece of religious art specifically for Catholic or Christian adult children of divorce.

Really interesting conversation. So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce. Separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 79. I have two guests today. My first one is Dr. Daniel Meola. He's an adult child of divorce who earned his PhD in theology of marriage and family from the Pontifical John Paul II Institute for studies on marriage and family in Washington.

He's been leading retreats for 15 years in particular, he's led retreats and support groups for adult children of divorce or separation since 2015 in the archdiocese of Washington. And in 2018, he founded life giving wounds to spread the retreat and support groups, to adult children of divorce or separation.

Dan and his wife live in Maryland with their two daughters and a cat. My second guess is Michael Kini. Michael is a husband and father of five. He's also a full-time Catholic painter, illustrator and musician with a bachelor's in fine arts and illustration from Ringling school of art and design and a master's from the John Paul II Institute in DC, Michael and his family currently live in Northeast, Pennsylvania.

Quick. Disclaimer, my guests are both Catholic Christians. So you're gonna hear talk about God and faith in this episode. Now, if that's not your background, no worries at all. I'm glad you're here. Now. I typically say that you can listen and take the God parts out, but this episode is extra religious. So if that's a real turnoff for you, perhaps start with another episode.

But if you do listen, I challenge you to listen with an open mind. I do believe that you. Still benefit from this episode. So here's my conversation with Dr. Daniel and Michael

and Mike. So good to have you on the show. Thank you both for being here. Yeah. Pleasure. Thank you, Joe. This idea that, uh, art can be healing. It it's so intriguing. I'm excited to dive into it deeper. Mike, I wanted to start with you as an artist. Uh, two questions, one. Why is art healing? And maybe if you could define what we were talking about when we say.

Sure art is healing. Um, sort of this might be a controversial statement, but sort of by its nature, you know, there's a lot of, uh, there's a lot of science even behind the healing of that, that properties that art has, you know, um, read many research papers in that regard, you know, in terms of. Beautiful art can, can alter brain chemistry and, and reduce hospital stays and, and, and these kinds of things.

But it, what that does is it really speaks to our, that body's soul connection. You know, that we have that, that art, which is something that speaks to the heart beyond words, you know, in a place where there, where maybe. Words can't reach or maybe words aren't necessary. Um, I think anybody who has walked into a beautiful cathedral, uh, or walked into a, an art museum and has, you know, been in the presence of some great work, the, the art itself, great art like that has, has a not only its own kind of presence, but it also has this ability to penetra.

More deeply our interior than if somebody was able, then if somebody was to, uh, produce a, an argument or, or a, um, or, or a well crafted way of describing the art itself, but be just simply being in, in the presence of the art itself, sort of astonishes us, uh, in, in an interior way. That is impossible. I think in, by other means.

so I, I mean, you know, what is art? It's a hard thing to describe, right? You know, mm-hmm, in a lot of ways, but ultimately, I mean, I wanna say from the outset, I, from my perspective as a sacred artist, as a artist who also creates animation and illustrations and things like that, the art's ability to heal is really.

Uh, it's fundamentally, it's a gift of God, you know? So the, the ability of the work of a man woman's hands and artists hands without an infusion of grace by itself, doesn't necessarily have a, a capacity to heal. It's it's this, this imparting into our interior, into our, uh, heart, soul, whatever you wanna. Of God, something of God's own transcendental beauty.

So he is, it's like he's, he's giving us a glimpse or opening a. Door or shining a, a mirror that we can see just a glimmer of God's own transcendental beauty and that astonishes the human, the human being, the human heart in such a way that, uh, it, it can move us to then want to, uh, either drop things that are harmful in our life like sin, but it can also, so we talk about things like conversion in, in the presence of a piece of.

But, but God sharing, uh, something of his own transcendental beauty through the work of human hands is where healing and art, I think really takes place so many good points. Uh, I wanna comment on that, but first in anything dad, oh, I mean, Mike is the artist will have the deepest sense of this topic, but I would add that.

I think there's an inner artist to us all, you know, I, I, I see this, I see this in our ministry. For healing time and time again, sometimes people think of, um, people in like right brain left brain. Sometimes you hear this, you know, like left brain's the analytical practical side and the right brain is emotional, creative, artistic side, but it, it it's absolutely been debunked that we're whole, the soul unites us.

We, we need to use both sides. Mm-hmm , you know, two brains are better than one. Um, and, and to find healing, we need to integrate. Our whole self. We need to use our whole self, which means our right brain as well. So even if you're more of the analytical argumental type, I would say that there's something of the right brain, the artists that we all need to recapture for our healing in our wholeness.

To not, you know, bifurcate our brains and actually it's impossible to do so, you know, current studies, this idea that there's left brain, right? Brain people goes back to the sixties, but current studies show that there's no such thing. They're always integrated. Mm-hmm, , they're always used. So if there is any trauma, any great suffering like us as children or divorce have experience, it's affected our whole brain.

Mm-hmm our whole selves. So this, you know, this idea that we can just approach healing in just an analytical. Or just a creative way is, is flawed. We need, we need both. We need to use both. So I would just add that, you know, as Mike talks, there are specific people who are called to be artists and they have a unique location to teach us about the importance of art and healing and ways that the normal person couldn't understand or see, although we experience it and before great artists Mike said, but all of us, all of us have this inner artist.

This inner capacity for art that needs to be fulfilled by beauty. So Mike talked about beauty as a transcendental from God. It's, it's also our own need as humans. We need to see and to experience that visible form of God. Beauty is that visible form of God whose ultimate goodness, if you wanna back it up for those in the secular audiences, you know, the medievals would say beauty is the visible form of the good mm-hmm

But then with the revelation of God, for those who are believers, God adds a new dimension by being the ultimate form of the good to, you know, you know, we believe as Christians, beauty is the visible. Of God's ental goodness. But, uh, we have that inner need for that. And I've seen so many times in my ministry, people responding, cuz Mike does ministry with us to his music, to his art or other pieces of art.

And not just Mike's there's these major breakthroughs, there's these major insights because it gets at the place of the heart. I like what you said. Beyond words. So this is just a little bit of a plug to say that we, we need this as humans. We, we tend to think of art and beauty as just sort of like a entertainment pastime mm-hmm , but it it's just human need.

Whether you're experiencing suffering or not, but especially for those who are suffering so good. And it's a good point about, you know, how our brains are integrated. And one of the things, when you were talking about that and my, what you were saying before too, made me think of how, uh, therapists and a lot of healing modalities therapy modalities, um, they use are.

As a part of healing, which is beautiful. And so not only can a piece of art itself, if you experience it on your own, be healing, but even in therapy, you could end up doing some sort of art therapy, which I think it just proves the point again, that art can be incredibly healing. And, um, I love that point you guys made about, yeah, it goes beyond words cuz I think that's why when.

You know, if you're feeling down, you put on a song we've had, we've had artists on the show, musical artists, and, uh, you know, when you're feeling down, you put on a song and for some reason you get comfort from that. And it's, it's kind of intriguing. It's like, why is that? And one of the reasons I think is that yeah, they say things that maybe you can express, um, maybe in a better way than you can.

And then the second reason is probably, uh, Don't feel as alone cuz there's someone else, at least who, you know, is ex has experienced something that, that you have experienced, which I think is so good, man. There's so much more to say on this, but thank you for explaining that. And when we say art, uh, the thing that comes to my mind and Mike correct me if I'm wrong here.

I think of paintings. I think of, like you said, animations, I think of movies, stories. I think of music. It really can encompass more than maybe what people think of as like a painting in the Louv or something like that. Yeah. Anything add to. I think, I mean, in regard to what Dan said too, there's a certain sense in which we can, if we all do have sort of an inner, we have an inner artist in all of us, we're able to also to shape and form and create our own our, our life, you know, uh, and, uh, to begin to kind of order bring order to the sort of chaos that's that's around us, you know?

So there's a, there's a way in which. Even beyond the, the, the material things you just mentioned, you know, uh, you know, a sculpture piece of art or something like that, that art can be something that almost extends into non-material in that way. You know what I mean? Beautiful. So, yeah, just, just to add to that, I mean, we understand art in the broadest terms or beauty.

I mean, I prefer the word word, beauty art is one expression of it. Beauty is the visible form of the. It's the visible form. So it's, it's this beautiful life. It's beautiful creation. I mean, now the creative arts, which is what you're speaking about, which is the more narrow set is the music, the, uh, movies, the storytellings, the paintings.

I would just add here, shout out, uh, for poets. Poetry is my big thing that I use to help heal from my parents' divorce early on in my marriage. Or marriage, ah, in my healing journey, I've also used it in my marriage, but, uh, for different reasons to celebrate love. So yeah, I would just add poetry, but that, that I think is the creative arts, which is a unique subset of, of beauty, which is this larger, visible form of the good, so good shifting gears to a little bit more personal topic.

How has art been healing, uh, for both of you in particular and what art in particular, Dan, if we could start with you. Well, I think there's two sizes of this question. There's the art that I've received and there's the art that I've created that I've helped to heal the art that I've received. Man, there's so much , uh, it's hard.

I, I, Joey was kind enough to share some of these questions in advance. I was thinking about which one to two I wanna share, but I want the audience to know that there's like really like 50. Um, nice. Um, okay. For movies. Because I, I think movies have always played a big role, uh, in my healing kept me if you can, this is great Spielberg film just really captured the pain that you learned.

Divorce. There's this just wonderful scene, tragic scene, really sad scene, but just like nailed it. I remember seeing this, um, with, uh, Lena AR de de capo, he's the child of divorce and his parents are sitting in a room with a lawyer and the lawyers. Okay. I need you to choose which home for you to live with your mother or your father.

Now I'm not gonna leave until you choose. I'm gonna go outta the room, but you gotta choose. There's no wrong answer. This is a lawyer and Caprio's like, I'm outta here and just runs. That's the point where he runs because there is no right answer, right? like, like there is no right answer. Actually the lawyer is wrong, right.

He wanted to live with both of them. He didn't wanna have to choose one or the other. And there was just so much that movie. About being a people pleaser that I could relate to with de capo, that was like my way of coping. So just that whole movie and its portrayal of overcoming a pan divorce Spielberg, by the way, is child of divorce.

And I just, I don't know, his movies will always resonate with me. I just feel like so many of his movies deal with his own childhood wounds, like ETS, his, the famous one that dealt with his childhood wounds. So there's that I would also say, oh man, like artwork. There was a specific piece of our work. It's, it's an unknown artist of the sacred heart of Jesus, just crying.

And, um, I'll have to send a link. You can put in the show notes, it's an unknown artist and doesn't have a title, but just of Christ weeping that really moved me early on in my healing journey that we had a God that wept with me. And I had always. You know, perfect fake Jesus, where he is always calm, cool, and control.

Even on the cross. Like it doesn't even look sometimes like some of the depictions of Jesus on the cross, like he's suffering. It just seems like so beyond, already in the resurrection, which is fine, you know, but, um, there was just this one weeping Christ that has always, really struck me as like getting my pain.

But anyways, those are the two I would say for art movies, sacred art. There's some poems which maybe if I have some. I can share, but I want to let Mike jump in. Yeah. Mike, please. Thanks for sharing that. So I, you might be able to see behind me on the wall, right. There is an image of the blue Madonna by Carlo Dolche.

When I was a student in Sarasota, Florida in art school, I would go to the Ringling museum. Often, and I walked through this hall of Rembrandt and in that hall, there was also, uh, a Carla DCI painting, uh, called the blue Madonna. And it's, it's very simply, it's just a portrait of our lady and it's almost completely in darkness with this really saturated blue that you feel like you can almost put your fingers into.

It's like just thick, uh, like, like an ocean. I don't know how he did. I really don't know how he did it, but the thing that, that grabbed me, uh, initially was that there was this little sliver of light across her face that just illuminated just enough of her face that you saw the, the beauty of her features.

And at that point in my life, I was really in a, in, uh, what you would call it darkness. I had, I had this burden of a really long term, uh, pornography, a. That started before the age sometime it's kind of fuzzy for me, but sometime before the age of 10, where I was able to get ahold of it on a daily basis and just, it just latched into me like talents, you know?

So when I got to college things just kind of gave me an opportunity for things to spiral out of control in a certain sense. And so I was dealing with, uh, friends who had had, who got contracted STDs and had an abortion and all, all these different things in my mind was really just kind of swimming with what is all this, what is all this about, you know, life

And, uh, so I, I was kind of miserable that day and I was walking through the, the museum and I just stopped in front of this painting. And it. It, it like hit me, like, um, almost like an electrical feeling, you know, all through my body. and I stood in front of this painting and, you know, it was a good thing.

There was nobody in the gallery at the time, but I, I just started weeping, like a big ugly cry, like a, you know, snotty, ugly, cry, just like it was like my entire life just gushed out my face , you know? And, uh, when I meant, I meant what I said before about art being able to touch places that were sort of.

Untouchable. There was a place where I didn't even have words. I didn't even know why I was weeping at the time. It was just, it just felt like I was standing in front of beauty and I wanted to cry for it and because of it, and, uh, that moment was the beginning of my conversion. And having not grown up in with Christian faith, you know, to speak of and, and really discovering the church.

And also the beginning, first day of the beginning of my healing from porn. So the artwork has absolutely beautiful artwork, especially with God's. In, it has absolutely the power to bring us, uh, to a place of complete transformation or, or, and it begins the path of transformation. It's the spark, it's the initial kind of flame that gives us the desire to change our life.

I, I think that's probably the most, that's probably the best illustration I can give, but obviously film books, everything that's affected my life continually, deeply. That experience was the first time in my life that I, I realized that that art has a power. Beyond what the artist can manifest. Wow, incredible.

Thanks so much for being so vulnerable and sharing all that. Uh, yeah, so, so profound and I, I looked up the painting to, to see it at a closer, uh, level and it it's beautiful. It's striking. And, um, now I can relate so much, uh, to you. I was 11 years old when I saw pornography and that led to a struggle. And, uh, thankfully I was able like you to get that outta my life.

There, there are a lot of things that contributed to getting outta my life, but, um, I think really just, uh, an encounter of like real beauty and to see the distortion of beauty within pornography, it almost makes it unattractive. Like obviously there's the, you know, biological response to an image like that, but, um, really it, it becomes unattractive when you encounter beauty.

At a more profound level. And I remember one of the things that have been helpful and healing for me over the years when it comes to art. I don't know if it, Dan, I think it fits more of what you were saying is like just beauty, not creative art, but sunsets. Like, I just love sunsets. I always have grown up in the Midwest.

We always had great sunsets and. When I was going through a lot of the stuff with, you know, my family breaking apart and my parents getting divorced, uh, that was honestly a source of consolation for me, just like watching a sense that whether I was like feeling very anxious or down, it would always bring some sort of life either to calm me when I felt anxious or to give me some life when I felt kind of numb or depressed.

And so, uh, that in itself was, was really helpful and healing. And, uh, another thing too. My favorite movie, I have a lot of favorite movies. I love movies. Uh, but probably my favorite one is Batman begin. Excellent movie, you know, Christopher, Nolan's just an incredible director and Christian Bell did a great job playing Bruce Wayne in that movie.

Part of the reason I, I relate with it so much is, uh, Bruce lost his parents. He lost his family. And I think that's what we feel like when we're going through our parents' divorce or the breakdown of our family is like, we really it's a very real loss, something we need to grieve and something that's not supposed to be that way.

Just like the way that Bruce's parents got gunned down, uh, in the movie. And I always thought it was so powerful how he took that pain. Took that brokenness. And though it started to destroy him, his anger, his rage, his desire for revenge, though, it started to destroy him and lead him down a bad path.

Eventually through the help of others, he redirected that to. Serve justice like to, to help people to do good, not to, just to destroy and super revenge as can be tempting, you know, for those of us who've been harmed, which, which I always related to. It's like, okay, that's the type of person. I wanna become someone who, who has been wounded, who has been hurt, who has been through trauma, who then takes that, that energy, that power and redirects it in something that's good and beautiful.

And, uh, and so that movie has been particularly healing, uh, for me. And it's something I, I never get tired watching that movie. Um, there's so much we could say. I do wanna shift Dan over to you and just see, like speaking to people like us who come from, uh, separated families or divorced families. Yeah. How, how might art be helpful for people like us in particular, in addition to everything we've already said?

Yeah. I mean, I think. I'm not gonna do justices story, but I'll, I'll use somebody who's come through our ministry. There's, there's a great blog post that will talk about her. We use art, like on our retreats. There's tons of arts in our books and that anyways, there's a great blog post. You want to hear more about the story called remaining secure in the father's love on our, on our blog, on our website life given wounds.org, but anyways, she talks about.

How she had this major breakthrough. Now she comes from this really bad background with a lot of, uh, domestic abuse as well. And she talks about this major breakthrough through a piece of art that was in our retreat guide. And it is, I always script the name. Jesus carried up to a pinnacle of the temple by James TSAT.

T I S S O T it's just great work. It's really hard at first. If you look at it, it looks really ugly, cuz it depicts Satan curing up Jesus to the pinnacle. But what's interesting is, is Satan looks super evil and ugly. Now she was reflecting on this art. It was like the representation of all these memories that just kept her just in this darkness, especially with the abuse there's particular memories.

It just would suck her down in what she believed about herself, that she was at fault for the abuse. This is what she deserved, all this like ugly stuff. And she'd been, you know, at therapy for just a number of years. But what just struck her was Jesus, just countenance. And this picture, despite all the ugliness around it, it's modern art.

modern. Art's very good depicting suffering. Ugliness. He's just so peaceful. His countenance is so peaceful and that led her to reflect. So it allowed her to explore her own suffering, some deep memories that she just couldn't access and to have a tremendous insight. That what I need to do instead of beat up myself, instead of think that I'm at fault when I know I'm not, and to be trapped in this darkness of these replays of these horrific memories, and they're really horrific, she comes from a very, like I said, domestic abuse, survivor, some really horrific things in her life that I need to remain secure in the father's love.

So it gave her this insight and then a new path to work on her healing. So I think great art allows us to explore suffering in the way that words can. It gives us these breakthroughs and insights. Mike just talked about the breakthrough that he had and then it enthusiasms for work. But then finally it, it helps us to raise above ourselves to, to raise above the junk, the suffering, to go beyond what we think we're capable.

But then the beautiful thing is, as we do the work, we come back to the need, to also contemplate. That's key for our healing is to not just get stuck in the suffering, but to rise above it. And ultimately we want to contemplate beauty more than think about the suffering. Now, again, suffering is gonna be with us till the day we die.

I'm not saying we leave suffering completely behind, but we have this need to come back and contemplate beauty. So I don't want anybody listening to this show. Think of beauty and art as just a means to an end, rather it is also an end. Of our healing. We, we want people to come back. So this woman also particularly found healing to continue to contemplate the beauty of Christ and his expression that artwork remains secure in the father's love.

Again, I'm not doing this story justice, but this is an example of how art can move us and heal us and come back to it. And, and you just sort of like meditate and contemplate that, you know, like you were talking about Joey, like the, the sunsets. Okay. That's beauty. Because again, creative arts, which is the paintings and things like that.

That's a subset of beauty. We need to come back and contemplate that beauty. We need to step back and rest in that from time to time in our life where our life will be empty. So that's just what I would say as an example of like how beauty it doesn't just heal, but it's part of the good life. It's part of the thriving, it's part of, you know, the joy that God.

Desires for us. Yeah. It's not just something you use, like you said, and then it's like a tool that you use to heal and then you're done with it, but it's really something that can give you life and help you thrive, uh, as a person. And no, I think this makes so much sense going to like the more specific application of healing.

Uh, one thing you made me think of is sometimes people get a little confused about experiences maybe they've had before they were. Able to cognitively remember them. And one distinction I've heard psychologists talk about, which I think is helpful in this discussion of art and how art can be healing and helpful.

We kinda have two different types of memory. There's explicit memory, which is more of like a cognitive memory. Like it's a vivid memory. We could recall a vivid scene, for example. And then we also have, um, what neurobiologists call, um, implicit memory, which would be, we can call it like emotional memory. I don't know if that's perfectly accurate, but let's just call it that, that emotional memory really are those things that we maybe can't again, vividly remember, or perhaps not even put into words, at least not yet, but it certainly affected.

And I've heard stories of people who they ha have experiences when they're, you know, babies. And then they go through life, you know, struggling with certain things or having, you know, certain temptations or whatever. And then later they learn, oh, wow. I went through this experience, which I didn't even remember can't recall, but it really impacted me.

And so I think that's part of the reason why these pieces of art or even beauty itself can be so evocative and help us heal is. They're pulling on maybe something in our past and helping us, like you said, access that and then hopefully heal it. And I know that's what happened with me when it comes to, you know, what I was saying about the Batman begins there's, you know, something inside me that was like relating to that, even at a level that I couldn't fully cognitively understand.

And I that's how I heard psychologists talk about that. When you watch a movie. Or you, you find yourself emotionally moved by something it's usually because some sort of memory's being triggered, even if it's not a vivid, uh, cognitive memory might be more of an emotional one. Mike, I was curious if you, uh, had anything to add about, you know, how you've seen art be healing, particularly for children of divorce or separation.

Um, well, you know, I mean, as in regards to the, the painting that we did for life giving wounds, which we'll speak about in a little. For me, that's, it's an example of how surprising it often is that, you know, as an, as an artist, you. You develop a piece of work, you think about the different symbolisms. You try to incorporate as much of it as you can into the, into the artwork itself.

Uh you're as you're accomplishing it, you're thinking of new things. There's little sort of aha moments where you realize, wow, I didn't realize I, I, I did that, but it's there, you know, it's just, you know, little stroke of, of. God, uh, opening it up, you know, even to the artist's mind, but what's astonishing to me so many times that folks, when they see the painting or any, any work that I intend for, for healing purpose, that they'll, they'll come out with things that are, are so integral to their life.

Uh, they'll come up with meanings that I couldn't have perceived, you know, at the time. And, uh, so the. Art has, this has this way of, of really just beyond the artist's intention beyond, uh, the intention of, you know, the person who commissioned the work. There is an all, there is another intention. It's the intention of God's use his, his own intention for the work and how it'll be used in the healing process.

And I, I, I just lo one of the things I love the most about it is just how unique an individual it is to each person. Um, They perceive the thing that their heart is in need of perceiving. No, it's so good. I love that. And I think, uh, one of the ways it's helped me and helped people we've worked with too.

And I know you both know this, but one of the steps in healing is often just putting words to your experiences into the wounds that you've experienced. And, uh, I think art does well in kind of putting on us on that road, which, which I think is, is so good and so beautiful. Dan, I wanna go to. Tell us about the artwork that you commissioned Mike to create?

Uh, why did you commission it? Yeah, so we commissioned an artwork, a sacred artwork for the healing of children divorce. And it came out of, I mean, frankly to my knowledge and research, I could not. Find a painting for us, for a children divorce that had a Christian theme primarily. No. If any of your listeners know of anything, I'm happy to be wrong about this and I would, and I would love, I would love to, to see more sacred art for children divorce.

So any listeners out there, if you know of something, please email me and Joey, I would love. Always loved to collect that. But anyways, I couldn't find anything. I did pretty exhaustive research and I'm like, you know what? I just really want to create sacred art for the healing of children and divorce, sacred art here being specifically Christian.

And so I came to Mike many years ago cuz again, knowing the need for the creative arts and healing and the importance of beauty many years ago with its desire to create something for us, for our healing and around the same time too, I had a really beautiful experience of artwork at the national gallery of art.

I live in Washington, DC of Picasso's painting the tragedy. So again, you speak of artwork that loses us the tragedy of 1923. Really move me and it depicts the tragedy that's happening in the family. He doesn't really say what the tragedy is, but one of the interpretations of the tragedy by Picasso, um, of 1923 is that it was divorced or separation or some brokenness in the family.

That's one interpretation. It could be other things. Uh, and they're on the beach. And what's interesting about, is it captures the sadness. I remember seeing this and like you, Mike, I was, I was weeping in the art gallery, hoping nobody would see. Uh, when I saw this national go virus, this was like 2011, 2012.

And just like really? Yeah. It felt like it captured my sorrow, but the interesting thing, and, and so I loved it. It captured my grief. And again, one of our struggles as adults learn a divorce were children, a divorce is having our grief acknowledged. So I, I felt here Picasso nailed it. He nailed the grief, but it stopped.

And as a Christian, I wanted hope as well. And, uh, Paul talks about Christians are called to grieve with hope to be different than just secular views of grieving as the grieve with hope. So I wanted something as a response to the tragedy. And so I commissioned Mike, our ministry commission, Mike, which was crowdfunded by the way, by children are divorced.

So I'm really grateful. Shout out to all the other children, divorce that crowdfunded this, uh, painting to be a response to Picasso's tragedy and, and not a response. And just like, oh, now we're just gonna, all of a sudden have hope and no more grief. Like there's still grief in the painting. So I don't want to give that view, but to be a dial, maybe a better word is a dialogue with Picasso's tragedy, but something that could be healing as.

For the children divorce. So that, that was a little bit of like the personal circumstances that led to. And then, um, why we commissioned Mike cuz we saw this great need of the creative arts and healing specifically on the retreats. And so we created, it's called an, let Mike talk a little bit more about it.

It's called let the children of divorce come to me. So from the, you know, famous biblical passage, let, let the children come to me here. We put in, let the children in divorce come to me. So we, you know, switched it up there a little bit. Uh, but Mike, I, I don't know if you wanna. Say more or Joey, did you have something to say first?

Yeah. No, that, that's amazing. Thank you for explaining. And we'll put a link in the show notes so you guys can look at it. I, uh, and perhaps while you're listening right now, if you wanna pull it up, um, as Mike gives us maybe a little bit of a further explanation of. The symbolism he used. Um, you can look at it and Mike can talk through it.

So Mike, if you would, yeah. Talk us through the symbolism and the different parts of this piece of art in particular, please. Well, can I just give the link if you pull it up just to follow it? It's life giving wounds.org/sacred art for children and divorce. So that'll be the best to follow along. Sounds great.

And that link will be in the show notes as well. Yeah. So this was kind of a, a unique challenge, uh, for me as an artist, because I knew that what the ministry wanted was. This dialogue with Picasso. And, you know, I knew what I knew of Picasso was at least outwardly, he, you know, rejects the, the, this idea of God, uh, he rejects.

So in, in that he would reject the, the, the, the possibility of the transcendence sort of giving life or informing anything. in the world, you know? Um, so there would be, he'd probably have very little to say about the symbolism that could PO you know, that could happen. And so I I've never done anything like this before as the point that I've never, I never specifically intended to set out creating a piece of art dialoging with an artist of this type.

It's actually not within my style or even in interest, at least in, in his modern art and. The, the challenge for me was, well, I wanted to create a piece of art that that was obviously in dialogue with, with Picasso. So I tried to really kind of step into his way of painting as best I could, his palette as best I could.

And to try to describe what we in the ministry wanted to, to describe what the commissioned. in a way that people viewing the original, the tragedy of Picasso could, could see it, uh, in, in dialogue, if that makes sense. So that's, that's the reason why the, the artworks sort of look like they belong together in a lot of ways, you know, that the, the life giving wounds artwork is, as Dan said, not exactly giving you this idea that, you know, as you step towards Christ, there will be no more suffering, but that.

There is a great deal of hope in this image. So as regards to the image itself, if you have it in front of you, it helps a lot. the, the overall symbolism in, in the image. I think what we wanna share is that, is that the, the, the child's face being lifted into the gaze of Christ is. The primary part of the encounter here, Christ looks into the eyes of the child.

He's extending his hand above the, the hand of the child. And you see sort of this light kind of emanating from the wound of Christ into the child's hand, which also bears a similar wound. And then from the, the wound of the child's hand, the, the same light of Christ is then, uh, Even, uh, the feat of his parents, uh, is a symbol of illumining the world.

So the central focus and idea, I think for this image is that the wounds that we carry can be healed, but can also be a fountain of grace, not only for ourself, but also for the life of the. . Yeah. So there's that the, the one thing we wanted to, to also communicate is that the two parents are, even though that they're sort of more together on the, on the right side of the image, they're not exactly together.

Their backs are turned towards each other. They're both still interested in, in what's what's happening at least to the child, although they, they don't turn their eyes to him completely. Yeah. Just add in. Yeah, go ahead. The second. About the eyes, cuz the eyes are important in the picture. One of the things Mike beautifully displayed is it's awesome that you did this cuz I didn't ask him to do this in Picasso's original piece.

No one is looking at the child and is suffering. The child is utterly alone, even though he's surrounded by his parents. I just thought that captured so beautifully. That's why I wept at it. The, the pain and suffering. And again here, the parents aren't. Exactly focused on the child. Yeah. They kind of see the hands, but they're still missing the child.

So there's still that pain. There's still this suffering. The parents have their back turn. There's still this ongoing suffering that emanates from the divorce, from the separation. So again, the goal of painting is not just say, say, oh, hope over suffering. But hope in the suffering. There's both realities here, but the key here that Mike depicted is, again, this is the holy spirit moment.

Is Christ lifting the gaze of the kids face to him saying you are not alone. I see you. I see your pain and I love you. So unlike Picasso's pain where no one's looking at the child. Christ is looking at the child and he is actually lifting up his head because again, in Picasso's painting, the child is way down.

He's looking down at his feet. What is that? Shame, fear, burden, whatever that is. And he's still struggling with it in his painting, such that Christ gently touches his, his chin and raises his him up saying like, no, no more shame. No more loneliness. No more. or if you have these things I'm with you and that's okay.

So this just, uh, I just love that you depicted this mic and I think this comes from. To working in our ministry. And we often say, too, when we look at this painting, it really is a composition of so many children are divorced that we've accompanied as their experience here and this painting, they they're really, it's their experiences that created this painting.

It's just so beautiful that you depicted. The child's head being raised up. And I, I just think that's a key symbolism of, of the painting. And if you feel alone out there, I hope it comes as a comfort. Beautiful. There's so much air. I feel like you could talk about this for like an hour is there anything else in particular, like I see.

So if I'm seeing this right, um, is that water in the background and then there's a boat, is that right? And then at the bottom. It looks like a toy horse and then a rose. Am I saying that right? Or correct me if I'm wrong, please? Yes. You're saying that right. They're the, they're still standing on the beach, you know, as in the Picasso's tragedy, although Christ is coming towards the child, walking on the water and you see the child, uh, stepping forward the.

One foot on the land and one foot in the water or on top of the water. Again, I, I like the idea of the image of the child con sort of continually stepping forward towards Christ, you know, the need to continually step forward to, to the one who really does acknowledge the wound, you know, uh, so deeply as to carry it in him himself.

Uh, the there's a lot of little, uh, symbolisms, uh, in the articles on the ground. The one that strikes me. Really profoundly as the broken horse is one, one of the, um, typical, uh, wounds of, of children of divorce is you hear often as this lost childhood, you know, a lot of children from of divorce will say things like, you know, I don't remember.

I don't really remember play or really being able to play. So we wanted to, we wanted to acknowledge that wound with this little, little toy broken, you know, and if you see the original tragedy image, the, the, the young boy is sort of wrapped in the, it's kind of hard to describe or see, it's, it's kind of some sort of a heavy shawl or, or blanket of some kind.

And in this. Almost like a poncho joke, something like that, you know? Yeah. And, and in this image, he's dropped it behind him. This heaviness, he leaves it. He leaves it behind on, on the beach as he steps forward on the water. Beautiful. And the rose, I'm just curious about that. And you wanna speak about the rose.

Again, we wanna acknowledge this idea of the struggles and love the struggles of love. Now, the rose represents more than just the struggles of love, but, uh, one of the things they had asked Mike to depict was again, in this painting, all the different, various sufferings and balloons that children divorce could experience.

And there's a lot more here that is being left unsaid, but the, but the rose definitely the fall, it's a fallen rose. It's a fallen rose, uh, representing the difficulties of, of love. Um, also if you see the Picasso painting, you'll see his pocket is bulging. Yeah. And again, we were kind of like imagining what would a kid like have in his pocket?

And if you know anything about kids, it's like this random assortment of films. Yeah. So. and, and literally, like I asked my daughter, like, what do you have in your pockets today? Like sort of they inform this artwork and sure enough, she had like flower pedals, she had random string and a different toy. She didn't have a toy horse.

So like the different items, like there's a string there, there's the broken horse, the, the fallen rose, like you can imagine like a kid just sort of like stuffing them in the pocket. and that's sort of like when he casts aside that heavy, outer. That he's wearing a Picasso's, uh, tragedy, like all the stuff sort of like falls out everywhere.

So that's kind of also where some of that symbolism comes. And, and can I just say one thing, some Mike said that's really important for the artwork that we do sort of give away, so to speak on our website, we, we try not to explain all the symbolism, but we try to explain some of it is, is that, that foot, that Mike talks about how.

We have this continual need to meet, meet Christ for our healing, but it takes an act of faith. And I know there's some listeners out there. Maybe you're not Christian. Maybe you're struggling with your belief in God. Maybe you are Christian, but struggling with your belief in God. A huge part of our healing is the need to make that act of faith.

The step out on those waters, even when it's scary, even when it's difficult. And, and what does that concretely look like to do that? It's very simple. Inviting Jesus into the pain. And so that foot, that step meeting Christ is a symbol of that, that step that we need to take to invite Jesus into the pain.

And if you do, we'll find that he's already met us and he's, he's running towards us. So that'ss part of the symbolism there. There's so much more I'm sure we can say. And if you guys go to the webpage and, uh, take a look at the art itself, there is an explanation of kind of the different components of the symbolism that you can, uh, read through, which is cool.

And then on that page too, you'll see, uh, Picasso's original piece. And, uh, I think that kind of, it's like the key to this piece that you guys commissioned that Mike, you designed it it's yeah. Just makes so much more sense once you understand, uh, Picasso's piece. And I think it's a cool, uh, contrast to. Uh, what you guys are trying to lead people to, which is healing and wholeness, which is amazing.

Um, so much more I'm sure we can say on that. If you guys wanna add any final thoughts, feel free, but I did wanna, uh, ask you Mike, if people wanted to look at more of your artwork in particular, not just this one, how could they, I'm the best place to see it is my website, which is Michael corsini.com. And then on socials, Instagram and Facebook it's, uh, Michael Corsini art you'll find me.

Sounds great. And are you taking commissioned art as well? If someone listening maybe wants to do something every year, I, I have a certain amount of time for commissions. And so I, I have a little opening this fall, even if, if that's a possibility for someone. Yeah. Sounds great. Thanks for that. Um, Dan, before we go over you, I just wanna say two things I love about this piece of art.

One is, um, I love how Jesus is crying if I'm seeing that, right. Maybe I'm not um, I think that's beautiful kind of being with their, with us in the pain, as opposed to kind of being above it or removed from it. And you guys explained that well already. And then the second thing I thought was appropriate was just how, um, the parents, you know, look like they're dealing with their own pain, which is so often the case, right?

Part of the reason that we get ignored so much when we're going through our own pain of a broken family of our parents getting divorced or separated is that, um, our parents are so caught up in their own suffering and their own brokenness in their own emotions that they often just overlook what, what we're going through as well.

So I think that's a very accurate depiction. I love that you guys did that as well. And, uh, and that's not meant to bash parents in any way, but just to kind of speak to the reality and hopefully encourage. Not just the child to look up to Christ, but the parents look to the child and the parents to look to Christ as well.

So a lot, lot of beauty there there's so much more we could say, but Dan, I wanna throw it over to you to add any final thoughts and if people wanna buy the artwork or view it, you mentioned the link already. We'll show throw that in the show notes, but if they wanna buy the artwork, Or maybe attend one of your retreats.

How can they do that? Yeah, I mean, you go to our website, life.org, click on retreats to find out more in person retreats. We'll also be doing an online retreat. You can also purchase the artwork in various sizes, including on a prayer card as well. Uh, on our website, just go to our store and for restored listeners, we're happy to give a 20% discount for both the artwork.

And if you want to attend the online retreat, just use the code restored with the capital R uh, really grateful to. Joey in his ministry. And my last word is just simply seek beauty, seek beauty in your life, not just for healing. That's really important. Define the rest that you're craving for. And don't settle for beauty.

That's not a form of the good. That's not a form of the good, like you mentioned earlier in the show pornography what's lacking. Why is that not beautiful? It's not a form of the good, it's not the visible form of the good. So see beauty. That's the visible form of the good, whether that's in creation or here, we've talked a lot about the creative arts.

Beautiful Mike, any final words, uh, from you, any encouragement or advice to someone who comes from a broken family who feels stuck and broken? I just kind of piggyback on what Dan said is, is just seek out beauty that will, will give you rest, but, uh, allow when, when you do encounter it, just be sure. And, and try as best you can to, to not allow anything within yourself to block.

It's movement really just allow it to wash over you and trust, uh, that, that beauty is, uh, restoring. Just one more thing, cuz you reminded me of it. So I have to piggy back, uh, St. John Paul second, when I feel like we gotta get him in here, at least once he loved the arts, uh, he would always quote his favorite poet, Norwood.

He said beauty infuses us for work and work raises us up. So if, if a beautiful art as Mike. Moves you to work, work on your healing or convert in some aspect of your life, whatever the case may be. To give in to, to move that that therein is, uh, a special grace. So just to dovetail on Mike, to allow beauty to en infuse us for work and to allow that work to raise us up.

I mentioned the episode with the two musicians, Jenny and Tyler that's episode 51, in case you wanted to listen to. If you wanna buy the artwork or attend the fall 2022 retreat, just enter the discount code restored for a discount. Again, restored all capital letters, restored with a D at the end. And you can just click on the link in the show notes to learn more about that and to view Michael Corine's artwork.

If you're not aware, restored has an online community. I'll tell you how to join that. But first, some of the benefits you'll have a safe place to speak openly about the pain and problems you face because of the breakdown of your parents' marriage. And. We'll help you not feel so alone. And you'll also be challenged to grow into a.

Stronger person. So if you wanna join our online community, just go to restored ministry.com/community. Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/community. Just fill out the quick form there, and then we'll add you to the group again. Restored ministry.com/community. Thank you so much for listening.

Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

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#078: Ashamed of Your Past? It Doesn’t Need to Dictate Your Future | Crystalina Evert

If you’re ashamed of your past because of mistakes or abuse, it’s natural to feel stuck. But you don’t have to stay stuck. Healing and freedom are possible for you.

If you’re ashamed of your past because of mistakes or abuse, it’s natural to feel stuck. But you don’t have to stay stuck. Healing and freedom are possible for you.

Author and speaker Crystalina Evert vulnerably shares how her broken family and sexual abuse caused her to cope with drugs, drinking, and sleeping around. We also discuss:

  • Tactics that have helped her heal

  • A new book to help any woman, especially women who have suffered abuse

  • Advice and encouragement to women who’ve suffered abuse or feel broken

Buy Crystalina’s Book or Get First Chapter Free

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you've made a lot of mistakes in your life, those mistakes can haunt you and leave you feeling stuck. I know this personally and worse than that, if you were abused that trauma can also haunt you and leave you feeling stuck, but you don't have to stay there. Healing is possible. Freedom is possible.

And my guess today, Proves that I'm thrilled for you to hear from author and speaker Lina Everett, as a little girl, she suffered abuse in the breakdown of her family. And as a result of that trauma, she acted out in all sorts of ways, using drugs, drinking, partying, and sleeping around just to numb the pain that she was experiencing.

And all those things left her feeling ashamed, stuck, and really broken. And in this episode, she vulnerably shares her story and how the abuse and brokenness in her family has affected her. We also discuss how her brokenness has affected her relationships and even her marriage. She offers some tactics that have helped her heal and can help you too.

We discuss how her life drastically transformed. Once she dedicated herself to healing. She also announces a new book for women, especially women who've suffered abuse. And finally, she gives advice and encouragement. Tell you women out there who've suffered abuse or just feel broken, really incredible show, really inspiring story.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 78, as I said, my guest today is Chris Salina Everett. She's the founder of women made new and co-founder of the chastity project.

Kina is the best selling author of pure womanhood. How to find your soulmate without losing your soul and their curriculum you life love. And the theology of the body kina has spoken internationally to more than 1 million people about the virtue of chastity healing and God's plan for human sexuality.

She has a weekly syndicated radio show on EWTN and has made television appearances on MSNBC. And the BBC network, Lina has hosted several television series for teens and women on EEW, TN she and her husband, Jason have spoken at world youth, a in Sydney, Madrid and Poland, and most importantly, crystalline and her husband have been blessed with eight children before we dive in.

I just wanted to say that kina is a Catholic Christian. And so she's speaking from that point of view, she talks about God. She talks about faith. If that's not you, if you don't believe in God, I'm so glad you're here. My challenge for you is this, listen with an open mind. Even if you take out the God parts, you're still gonna get a lot out of this episode.

CRI story is just so inspiring. So beautiful. So definitely listen and again, take the God parts out if you need to. Uh, but you're still gonna benefit a lot from this episode. So here's my conversation with kina Everett

kina. It's so good to have you on the show. Thanks so much for making time for. Oh, it's such an honor. Thank you for asking me. I'm really excited about your book launch. We'll get into, uh, the book. Uh, I wanted to start with your story. I've always been inspired by your story because most people that have been through what you've been through really don't end up where you are today.

Like, you've been such an inspiration to me. Often, people like us who go through all the abuse, the dysfunction in our families. We end up repeating that cycle of dysfunction in our own lives. We feel stuck. We feel like we can't heal. We can't change. We can't improve. We can't grow. And now before we get to the healing and how you avoided repeating that cycle of dysfunction, I I'd love to start at the beginning.

Like so many people, uh, listening right now. You also come from a broken family. I'm curious. What was life like for you grow. Well, the only, I don't have many memories of my father, but one memory I do have he left when I was two. And the one memory I do have is actually of him walking away and leaving.

You know, I haven't never really verbalized that before , but I, I have this memory of being a child and just crying as a little girl. And I remember he gave me these gummy bears, but other than that, I don't have a huge memory of him, but I think I learned at a very young age that love doesn't last and love is not a forever thing.

and because I didn't have my father growing up and I came from that broken family and there was a lot of divorce and infidelity that I witnessed growing up as well. It was everywhere around me with my mother's siblings and just in the culture in itself. And even in the high school I went to, it was just like, well, it wasn't a big deal.

You know, it, it was like nothing. And you were supposed to just slough it off as it, while it was nothing right. Hmm. But growing up because I thought, well, love doesn't last. And it's not a forever thing. I was getting that love, obviously that I needed. And, and as a child, there was a lot of abuse. And so getting into high school, I.

I was looking for love, obviously in that acceptance and self-worth more than anything. And I had my first quote unquote, serious relationship, but, um, he said he loved me. I thought he did. And, and my friends were like, well, if, if he loves you, what's the big deal. You know? And, and physically, we just kind of kept pushing it and pushing it and pushing it until it came to the point where I had to make that decision.

And I ended up sleeping with him and, and because of my own brokenness and because of my, the worthlessness and the wounds that I felt that I carried into a lot of my relationships and it kind of just came out and it was really an unknowing wound I was living out of. Right. For so many years, that relationship ended up ending, of course.

And mm-hmm , you know what, and the people out there maybe will get this and maybe not, but a person knows deep down when they're being used. At first, it starts out in love and you want to be loved and you want, um, that person to love you and you wanna keep their attention. But the thing is at what cost and I paid a high price with that one relationship, but again, it just kind of firmed for me that, well, love doesn't last.

It's not a for everything. And that it is what it is, but I always was looking and I kept giving more and more of myself to get that love that I was searching for to get that self worth that I was looking for. And I always ended up hurt and disappointed and deep down. I knew when I was being used. I knew when it wasn't love, but it's kind of that counterfeit and that lie.

You tell yourself, because I went so far and I got into the drugs and the drinking and promiscuity that, um, it's like you, you slowly justify. You're way into that hole. I dug for myself, right? Yeah. All the way. There's like all these little justifications and all these little, like self sacrifices you make to just keep it up and keep the mask on.

And I felt like I constantly, after I was just living in Halloween, I was just had a mask on every single day. But the thing is the people around me in high school did as well. It was like a Halloween show every day because the things I would witness behind the scenes with my friends and then how they'd show up at school, like nothing even happened.

It was kind of shocking, but cause I came from such chaos and disorder in my own family. It's like, you go into that kind of world and you get submerged into it. It kind of seems normal almost right. A hundred percent. I remember talking to a psychologist about this very topic and she was saying even on the level of our brains, when we come from dysfunction, When we see these very dramatic relationships like between mom and dad, if they fought a lot, if things were loud and you know, there's a lot of anger at home.

When we come from that healthy relationships can actually feel boring. They could actually feel uninteresting because we've been so accustomed to like this almost excitement, this trauma. And if a relationship lacks that we think, well, this isn't interesting, this isn't for me. And we actually reject that and go towards those very unhealthy relationships that we know we're not made for, but they seem comfortable.

And also you're always just questioning in the back of your mind, if you don't heal, do they really love me? Are they really gonna be here? Is this rail? Yeah. You know, is this gonna truly last? And you almost kind of set yourself up for failure waiting for it all to fall apart because that's you do, right.

So we're not, we, we get uncomfortable. I feel in, um, stability. So when you are in that stability and you aren't healed. It's almost an uncomfortable situation, cause you're always waiting for the ground to fall beneath. 100%. And that's why your message is so important of, of healing and growth. Because once you go through that process and it is a continual process, but there is a lot of progress you can make in corners, you can turn, but once you go through that process, then you're setting the foundation to build that stable life, those stable relationships on.

And I, I want to get to that in a little bit here, but I, I am curious if there's anything else you would add about how the, the brokenness in your family and how the abuse that you endured, uh, affected you in the years that followed, we kind of got up into, I guess, high school at this point. Was there anything else that you'd like to add.

There was a lot of stuff. It growing up the thing is because I didn't have a father growing up. I really gravitated towards my grandfather. And I spent a lot of time over my grandparents' house. And because my mom was a single mom and she did her best. I mean, she really did. God bless her. And I had a lot of anger growing up towards my mother, but being a mom now and being married and stepping outside of the situation and kind of looking in now, a lot of it makes sense, right?

Yeah. Because when we see our parents acting out or getting angry or yelling, or they're going through their own dysfunction and as a child, you almost feel like it's your own fault. You know, or that you're just this burden on your parents because they're having to deal with you or, or you're having to go back and forth between parents.

Some of you out there are experiencing that. And sometimes you may have felt like a burden. And at times I felt like a burden, right? Yeah. And I never was re like, I felt like I never was affirmed in. You are valued. You are wanted, you are loved. And that was hard. And I did do well as a child in school. I hated school.

I was kind of the problem child out of my sister and I, I only had a sister, so it affected me in a lot of different ways. And again, growing up with that, it really, that wound, you start learning to live out of that. Cause that's kind of the home base of where you're living, going through that trauma day in and day out.

And always wonderful. Why wasn't I enough for my dad to stay? Why didn't he love me enough? What's wrong with me? You know, why did they break up? Was it my fault? Is it, was it my problem and these things going on? And then you slowly silence those voices and you just kind of go through the motions cuz you get used to it.

But it's really just causing that deeper wound that you're just shoving down. Right. Mm-hmm and ignoring coping mechanism. And so I really gravitated towards my grandfather, but he ended up leaving my grandmother. When she was, I think, 50, 50, something years old, and I was devastated. So I felt like I went through it all over again of my grandfather leaving and I felt abandoned again because wow, I wasn't enough for him to stay.

I wasn't enough for him to be there and that broke my heart. And so at that point, I think that's when I really made a personal vow almost of, I will never let a man in and love me because all he's gonna end up doing is destroying me. So I'm gonna be confident, strong, smart, amazing woman, and I'm gonna take care of myself and I'm gonna be prepared that if I do get married at the end of the day, I'm gonna have my own bank account, own money, my own, my own wits about me that I'm not gonna have, I'm not gonna be left behind by someone like a piece of trash at 11 years old.

I remember laying on the stairs, crying, thinking that to myself, Because my grandmother had to witness how devastating it was for her. And I'll, I'll never forget that. And it was so sad watching her cry and sob and, and I didn't fully understand everything cuz I was so young, but at the same time it really had a deep effect on me.

And at that point I, I just cut my grandfather off. I wanted nothing to do with him. So mm-hmm, not just one man left, but two and my grandfather I think was even worse because I had a really good stable relationship with him. And um, even when he did come back to try to have that relationship with me, I just completely rejected him.

I wanted nothing to do, which was hard, but I was so hurt. That's the only thing I knew how to do. And that was the other thing. I trained myself in that woundedness and brokenness just to keep people. Don't let them in because you're just really gonna end up getting hurt. So slowly it's like you're building that wall up around yourself to protect yourself.

Like you, you would keep things out, but you're also keeping so much in too. And you, I couldn't experience that real love for a very long time. It was very hard for me to accept it. Absolutely. And without that vulnerability, like you mentioned, there is no possibility for authentic love, but it is really hard when people like you and me come from broken families.

We've seen this dysfunction we've been let down, we've been abandoned. It's really hard to overcome. That abandonment and begin to love again. And I know in my own story, I was 11 years old when my parents separated. And I remember just being so devastated by the news. I wasn't aware that, I mean, my parents had problems here or there, but it really came out of the blue that they were gonna get divorced.

And so I remember the day my dad left, it was like a warm spring day. My mom sat me and my siblings down. I'm one of six and broke the news. And I remember as an 11 year old boy, I couldn't handle that news. It was truly traumatic for me. And so I just sat in the closet and I cried and sitting in that closet, I felt like you just express.

I felt abandoned. I felt unwanted. And I felt like I just wasn't enough because if I was why weren't mom and dad working this out? And I know there's so many people listening right now who feel that exact same way. And over the years too, I, I blame myself and that's something I'm glad you brought that up.

Cause that's something we hear again and again, there was a dad who reached out to me recently and he shared that, uh, his wife was divorcing him. He didn't want the divorce. She was going through with it. And so really difficult situation. They have one boy, uh, son and, uh, the dad on the day that he was leaving the house, uh, he was in the bathroom, just crying, just devastated by this whole thing.

And his son came in and he looked at his dad and he said, dad, is this my fault? And immediately, you know, the dad wrapped him in his arms and said, no, no, of course it's, it's not your fault that this is, you know, between your mother and I, and so I think so many of us internalize all these things that, that you touched on.

So well, um, feeling abandoned and feeling like it's our fault. And the other thing that I didn't realize what's happening at the time, I shut everything out, but also you're shutting God. You're not, I at least I did. I literally, even at that young age thought whenever I heard of love and, and God is love and, and God is forever.

And this and that, I thought, Izzy really though, like where is he right now? Then? You know? And I didn't really see that a lot in my life. And I feel like at a very young age, God was challenging me in that. And I think a lot of people don't realize how you're being challenged in that as well of your relationship with God.

And a lot of people wanna grow up with that coping mechanism. Oh, well that happened. I was, I was a child. It's not that big of a deal, but that's the thing. And that's the great lie. Isn't it? Because it is a big. It slowly comes out and it bubbles onto all of our different relationships and even to how you parent and how you are a spouse and a lot of different things, it will come out.

If, if you want it to or not knowing or unknowingly, I couldn't agree more in, uh, your new book. You pose a great question related to everything that we're talking about. You say, are you afraid to embrace a specific vocation? Because you fear you will end up like your parents. And that really strikes a nerve for people like us from broken families.

We really fear that. And the young people that we work with through this ministry, we hear that a lot. We are so afraid of making the same mistakes that they did of repeating that cycle of dysfunction and divorce. And even if we don't end up going that way, that the trauma that we've endured so often impacts our vocation, which for most of us looks like our marriage.

And so on that topic to whatever degree you're comfortable with sharing, how has your brokenness affected your marriage? Oh, my goodness. It was a nightmare. I can be very, very honest and candid because I did have my, my kind of come to Jesus moment and I have this conversion. Right. And, and I have to go back in order to tell you how that kind of transpired.

Right. But I, I literally had this moment of this talk where this young man, and it was when I was in high school and it was towards the end, but nobody could Pierce that darkness that I was in. And I don't know if you experienced that, Joey, but I was in such darkness and turmoil and things that I did and how much I gave away.

I felt like nothing. and I hated myself. I hated being in my own skin and I just knew it. Wasn't supposed to be that way. But when you give so much of yourself and what's done is done, you, you kind of, I felt like damaged goods and that nobody could ever really love me because I was so damaged and I caused a lot of it and I allowed a lot of it.

But it was that young man who stood up and had the courage. And I go back to this moment because a lot of people out there don't realize the power of their own testimony to the world and the people around them. And you never know how you can Pierce someone's darkness just by your testimony and how you live and what you've gone through.

And just sharing that with people. Sometimes it helps. And that young man had the courage that day to just get up and talk about all the porn, all of the addiction, everything that he had been into, I felt like he was talking directly to me, but he also talked about how he started over and that he was this new creation.

But the one thing that I just was in awe of, and I couldn't take my eyes off of him, I was in shock almost of how honest he was. He was so honest about where he was at, what he had done. and he wasn't ashamed. And I sat in my seat trying to figure out one day that I hadn't been ashamed of myself and the way I was living and being in my own skin.

And, you know, I couldn't find one, not a single day of carrying that around with me. And I wanted that. I wanted to be done with this shame and this weight and just, I wanted that more than anything. And so just by that testimony and his courage, and they say courage is contagious, I'm sure a lot of you have heard that it really was that day.

And God was able to Pierce that darkness I was in and I was able to come out of it and go to confession for the first time, because I mean, we've all experienced it where we go to confession to go to confession. So either somebody sees us or we feel like we're checking it off, or we're not really giving God everything right.

And all the weight and all the sin and all the yuck. So it held me back a lot for those of you that are Catholic, I think you understand. But that day, I mean, I went to confession for the first time. And it was the most freeing experience that I had had, and it was unbelievable. I can't even describe it, but to go in there with this huge list of all of these things, because I finally really was done with that lifestyle and what that, the grace that came from that young.

Was powerful. And sometimes you don't even realize what you're doing or what you're saying and how the holy spirit is working in you, but that it really can change lives when words have power and what you speak over yourself and what you speak to others has power. And you need to know and learn that power that you have, because it, it is, it's something fierce when you know what you're doing, especially with the grace of God.

Yeah. Does that make sense? Oh, of course. And no, you're, you're hitting the nail on the head. I think back to, you know, after my parents separated. Yeah. I went down a really dark hole. I made a lot of stupid mistakes and got to that numb place that you mentioned, and just so much regret, you know, a lot of sexual mistakes on my part.

And. Just things that I, I wish never happened. And obviously, you know, God's been able to use those and heal me and all that. And I've been able to live a pure life. Thanks to you and Jason like here and Jason, he did for me what that young man had done for you. He really answered all the questions I didn't even realize I had about love and sexuality and, uh, helped set me on that path to living in pure life.

And there was so much peace and so much freedom and so much joy that came from that, that I couldn't have known until I tried it. And, and I think that's one thing important. That's important to say it. you could hear about it all day, how peaceful and good and happy you can be if you live this like good pure life.

Um, but until you actually try it, you're not gonna experience that. And so, uh, once I did, I experienced it, I was like, oh, I never want to go back to another way, but going back to the numbness, then I wanna let you comment on that. Yeah. I totally experienced that. And even in the years that followed after I turned my life around, uh, I still experienced that numbness and what I realized in time, Is that it's actually a trauma response and it's actually a really good thing that our bodies, our brains do when we're in traumatic situations is that we become numb because if we were to feel all of the emotions that we could feel in a traumatic experience or moment, uh, we would just collapse, it would be overwhelming.

And so it's a good thing in those moments to feel numb. But what happens is sometimes we get stuck there and it continues on, and that's where the healing and processing all those traumas, uh, will help you to feel not numb, but alive again. And there's a lot of people that we've worked with. Who've gone to trauma therapy and they've been able to experience that.

I know that was the case for me as well. So I wanna let you comment on yeah, just that anything that I just mentioned. The numbness. There's a numbness that I think is, is good that your body needs to respond to. But there's also a toxic numbness that I dove into of the drugs and the drinking and just shutting it off.

Right. I wanted to just shut it off, shut it down. And I didn't wanna care at all and that, but I will say this. And for those of you out there that maybe don't feel you hear God, or even know if he exists. I don't care how drunk or how high or what I was doing. I still heard that small, still whisper of a voice.

I knew. I knew I didn't need to. I shouldn't be there. I knew what I was doing was wrong. I knew I was damaging myself and I knew no matter what I did, I couldn't shut it up. Like God was hound. God was not gonna leave me there. But I tried my hardest to shut that voice up. And if you listen, no matter what's going on in your life, I don't care where you're at in your life, who you are, where you've been, what you've done, God does not wanna leave you there.

And the lie that kept me there for a very long time was, well, God doesn't really want me because I'm so wounded and I'm broken. And he'll love me when I am perfect. I'm a Saint I'm pristine. That's when God's gonna love me. And I am so far from that, that he's not gonna want me. And so what's the point, right?

And that's, that was the lie that I allowed the evil one to give me because it actually was in. The woundedness, it was in the yuck. It was in the broken and the ugly that Jesus was really wanting to go right there with me. And I didn't want him to go, I didn't want him to see me. I didn't wanna let anyone in because it was so painful and so shameful.

And I didn't want God to see me, even though he saw everything, you know, in and out. Yeah. You still feel like you're hiding somehow in this. Like, you still feel like nobody sees you and that's just, that's another lie. It's ridiculous. He was right there with me, but you have to invite him in and that's the thing.

Your will is everything and it is powerful. And when you willed it for the right things, God can do amazing things in your life. But I shut him out. I didn't want him in there. I didn't want to be seen, I didn't want, I didn't want to expose myself in that state. Right. Hmm. But it was when I let him in there that he was able to break kind of that, that bondage that I had over myself, So good.

And I appreciate you making the distinction between that, you know, regular numbness that we experienced because of trauma and the toxic numbness. I, I know exactly what you're talking about, and that makes a lot of sense. And thanks for sharing all that too. One of the things I realized in my own life is that so many of the mistakes I made, the bad habits I developed, the regretful things that I've done, uh, were just in an attempt to feel wanted.

Yeah. And now I, I realize that and I have that awareness. And so now I can seek out ways of feeling wanted that aren't unhealthy, that aren't bad. And a lot of it, you know, obviously comes from our relationship with God. But I think even that realization that we just wanna be loved, we wanna be wanted, like everything you're telling me in your story.

And I I've heard, you know, you speak and I've heard your story and read a lot of your content. Everything in your story just makes so much sense to me and makes sense. You went down that path and makes sense that you did these things in an attempt to feel loved, to feel, wanted to feel accepted, to, you know, overcome that abandonment that you experienced.

And so it, it just makes sense. And I think God looks at us that way too. He looks at us and he sees the dumb things. We've done the mistakes we've made and he understands. It's not like he's saying, oh, sin is a good thing. He'll never say that. He wants us to, you know, live a good life and get away from those bad habits as sins.

Um, but at the same time, I think he has this incredible understanding of us because he just loves us so much. And he looks at us and says, okay, like I get why you did that. But there's something so much more that I want for you. Yes. And he is constantly pursuing us regardless. And, and we wanna numb, but I'm, I'm have you experienced that Joey, where you are just like outta your mind on something or you, and you still hear that voice, like, you know, you shouldn't be doing this, you know, like this is not right.

Not good for you. A hundred percent. I remember when. Yeah, uh, buddy of mine, I was 11 around the time my parents separated. He introduced me to pornography and like so many people, I, I knew something was wrong with looking at it, but also I was very intrigued. It was, it was beautiful in a way, in a twisted way.

Right. The woman's body was beautiful. And so I felt drawn to it. And so, uh, over time though, I noticed that even though that was a way for me to escape the pain and the problems in my life to numb what I was experiencing, uh, I still felt ETI and even more miserable after going to porn. And I knew just like you're saying that little voice inside me was saying.

You're made for happiness. And I knew even as a boy, even as an 11, 12 year old boy, I knew that I wanted to be happy and this wasn't making me happy and needed to change. Uh, and so I'm sure you can relate with that too, but yeah, absolutely. To answer your question, uh, I certainly relate with that small voice inside of you now, after I had my conversion, God really gave me a grace of not falling back into those sexual sins.

Like something really shifted in me. And I think the power of confession was huge, but a real honest, good confession, right. And a whole hearted confession. And you know, I, some of you will understand this, that I heard an Exorcist tell me that confession is a mini exorcism. Hmm. And you know what, when I look back on my life and I look back on that moment, the shift that took place in me after that, it was so much easier to.

Live out the life I truly did want, and I know God wanted me to leave, but I couldn't do that without his grace. And that was another thing I tried over and over, because we've all had those moments where you do something stupid. I did something really stupid and I'll never do that again. I'll never sleep with them again.

I'll never get that drunk again. I'll never take this drugs again and you promise yourself and you're just really firm in that action, right? yeah, until that weekend or you feel lonely or you have that, that moment of having to be not so numb and actually feel those raw emotions and then you just gravitate back towards it and that's exactly what happened.

And it wasn't until I did it with Jesus. It literally wasn't until I did it with God that I. It did not happen again. And that was the difference that you don't have the strength on your own to overcome these vices. You don't have the strength in your own to come up against these temptations, but with the grace of God, you do.

And that was the only path for me that worked because I tried everything because I hated the way I lived. I didn't like it. I wasn't happy. I knew there was so much more, but I just didn't know how to get out of that rut. And instead living out of the rut, just, I, you it's a humbling experience, but at the same time I needed God to do it.

Yeah. So good can agree more. And I wanna get to your healing story. So what was it that helped you heal? You mentioned hearing that talk in high school. I'm curious in the years that followed, what did your healing process look. So after that, I knew I wanted to help young women like myself, because I never heard that message before that you can start over that you, it doesn't matter who you are, where you've been, what you've done.

And I literally wanted to scream that from the rooftops, especially to my friends and just let them know, look, it doesn't have to be this way. There is a different way. And so I slowly, baby steps had to change my life. And it was really hard because you have kind of both feet in each world, you wanna live this good life and strive towards that purity and that holiness.

And it's a whole new world, but you're still kind of in the world. Right. And that balance, it's like, you become this new person. And it's like, well, what is okay? What's not okay because when you're living out a life of purity and you're really trying to change. it really is a whole mindset. It's a whole lifestyle.

And there, there can not really be a lot of duplicity in that it's kind of one or the other, the light is always gonna be fighting with the darkness. Right. Mm-hmm . And so it was really just slowly getting rid of those friends and the clothes things I listened to. And you know, what was really interesting, Joey is one night I went to a party.

My friends invited me to, I, instead of engaging in everything, I literally sat in a seat and I watched the entire night in front of me, like a movie. I didn't engage in anything. I sat there and my friends were like, come on, come on, have a drink. And I'm like, oh, no later. You know? And I just was like, and I literally kind of prayed, but I watched.

It was like a movie how over time, and as the night went on people and how their standards just dropped and how they acted and what they were doing and how they changed and how I saw two people go behind this door and doing this and doing this and just things they typically wouldn't have done probably, but because they let their guard down and they got into that kind of coping of the drinking and just bad habits.

It's unbelievable how the night transpired. And I thank God, I wasn't engaging in that. And that he opened my eyes to actually see, and it was really eye opening. And if you ever wanna see a situation for it, what it really is, I would encourage people like if you're struggling, like you wanna live a different life, but oh, this one is so much fun and I don't wanna lose all of that, but is it really that much fun because from what I saw that night and what I witnessed, what I thought was so much fun.

It was dangerous and it wasn't good and it was bad. And every morning I remember just waking up, feeling like that. I felt disgusting and not worth it. My friends were like, oh, it's all fun and games. And the thing is you wake up the next day and you don't feel like it's fun and games. Right. You, you it's like you have to like shake off and wash off from the night before almost cause it's not fun and games.

And, and it was just an interesting moment, but I just really wanted to help women from that point on just heal and let them know it was okay. And so I ended up going to, well, my mother sent me of course, to The Bahamas of all places. cause there was a Chasity speaking event and she knew she had to do something extreme to really get me to go rough destination there, Chris.

It was hilarious. And so I was like, sure, mom, I'll go. Why not? You know, who's gonna, who's not gonna do that. So I went to The Bahamas and lo and behold, that's where I met Jason and at, and he was speaking there. And at the time I didn't wanna date anyone. I didn't wanna, I just, I needed my distance. I needed space.

I knew I had a lot going on and I was just fed up with men at that point in my life that I wanted nothing to do with them. So. I talked with Jason and we met, but we ended up just being friends for a good year. And then we slowly started courting and then we ended up getting engaged and we got married and it really wasn't until I think I started having kids that it really started to affect me.

And I started having serious issues. And the lie that I think I fed myself was like, I'm starting this new life, this new chapter, I'm leaving everything behind. And all my baggage is gonna stay outside of the church. And I'm gonna walk down the aisle into this whole new world that I imagine for myself.

Right. And I wanted to be this Martha Stewart mom, this amazing wife and, and all of these things. And I was incredibly ill equipped for any of it. And I really floundered and it was really difficult. And I didn't have that. Martha Stewart mother growing up. Okay. So, and I didn't even have the grandmother growing up to teach me like a lot of young women, because I feel like this there's this whole generation Joey of these women that got left behind these young women that got left behind from the sixties of their mothers, leaving their vocations and going out and becoming these strong business women.

And, and it was like this women power. But in the midst of that, I feel like there were casualties and I was one of them. And I literally didn't get taught how to be a wife, how to be a homemaker, how to have that Catholic essence within your home and, and how to even. A good wife, you know, it was, yeah, it was all kind of this shock for me.

And, and it's something you think that is just gonna like click inside of you because, well, this is what you're doing, so something's just gonna turn on and it never did for me. So I really struggled in just the house and pregnancy, the kids, all of it. I felt like a handicap and I felt so ill-equipped and I felt worthless in my own home.

And I didn't know how to do certain things. And there's a trial and error period, but I think my own brokenness really kicked in and I felt incredibly inadequate in those moments. And so it was really hard. And Jason came from this like, No joke, like leave it to beaver family that it's just like, they didn't understand, you know, there was such this different dynamic because he came from such good seeing such good wholesome relationships.

And here I come from this broken background and then they're colliding together and it clashed. So it was very difficult cuz he's expecting one thing I'm expecting another. And so it's really good to have those conversations, very raw conversations of what does your life day in day out look like after the wedding, after the big honeymoon and you get home.

What does eight to five and five to like 10 look like in your lives? What do they expect of you when you have kids? What is it? Um, they're wanting of you like really get into like nitty gritty of how your spouse or how the person you're dating or engaged to really sees your daily life in and out. Cuz it was very different than what I imagined.

And then also I had the dynamic of being a speaker and going and traveling with Jason constantly around the world with chastity. I mean, there were times where we were home, maybe five days out of a month because we were traveling so much doing this. Wow. And that was a blessing from God. But now we had kids, the whole, my whole world just started to change and it really came to this moment where I had to embrace my vocation as a mom and I had to change, um, my day in and my day out.

And what. God expected of me. And that was really a struggle and that's something I had to pray through because it's very different staying home with children and then also feeling inadequate in staying home and being this homemaker. And you're used to being on stage and helping people and traveling and doing all of these things.

And it was like this huge shift for me. So there were a lot of things at play that happened. And I, I really struggled, but I prayed through that and I knew I needed to be home with my kids. I knew that's what, what God was asking me to do. It was humbling. It was hard, but I knew that that's what needed to happen.

And I thank God every day that I did that, but I still struggle with this anger and just this, oh, I couldn't figure it out. And so I'd go to adoration. I went as far as I possibly could in my own healing process. And then I remember in adoration, God kept telling me, always will bring you back to that same thing.

The next step he wants me to take. And he wanted me to go to counseling. and I, I literally out loud and adoration said, no, I was like, anything but that just, no, I didn't want to go Joey, because in my family growing up, you didn't talk about things and you definitely didn't pay someone to go talk to about your problems, because then that meant you had serious mental and psychological problems.

Hmm. And it was very looked down upon, but now I know why it was looked down upon because they didn't wanna be looked in a bad light yeah. By anyone. Right. You keep up this facade for people. When you're you, you in a broken family and there's just so much going on, they wanna keep the, the pretend game going, right.

The world that you have it all together. And it was just something you didn't do. And God kept telling me to go do that. And it came to the point where I knew it was like, okay, Lord, I, I needed to do this. So it was really intense. And I started going to counseling and. In counseling is when I found out that I had been sexually abused as a child by family members.

And I did not know that I growing up had no I did. And I shoved it down so deep that I, I couldn't even, I couldn't even go there. And it was when again, thank God I went there with God and Jesus though. That's where you have to go to those places with, right, because he's the one that can really deal with those things and give you the strength and the courage to face them.

And that's why my, my women made new ministry even started was because of all of this that you really have to face it. You have to own it, and then you have to heal it. But without facing it and owning what happened to you, there's no way of healing it. And the first two are very scary, but the healing part, it can be done.

And. I will say in that moment that all of that kind of came up. My entire world shattered around me. And I think it was one of the hardest moments of my life, but I feel like I made so much sense to myself for the first time in my life, in that moment, because I understood why I had a hard time giving and receiving love.

Why sexualize my anger growing up, just all this anger and this just frustration, just all that yuck. I was always feeling, I feel like God ripped the bandit off and he showed me the wound and that's where I needed to go. And I'm telling you, I made so much sense to myself for the first time. And then after I went to ground zero, then I really could start building from there, you know, and it was hard, but then the foundation could be put down.

Then the yacht could get cleaned out. Then God could really do what he wanted me to. But if I didn't say yes. To what God was asking me. And so often I was just ignoring it and fighting it and I didn't want it. And I thought I knew better, and I didn't even realize what he wanted to show me. So when we were fighting God, and he is asking us to do something, you really have no idea the trajectory of where your life can go by just giving that yes to God.

Cause he's trying to do great things in you. And he, everything he asks of us, there is a reason for it. And he doesn't just ask us to do anything. There is weight behind it. My goodness, Lina, like, I'm so sorry. There's so much I wanna say I'm so sorry for what you've been through. It's heartbreaking that you were abused and just all the things you went through, but it's so beautiful.

How, you know, you've turned that around with God's grace and it's just amazing. And so inspiring. Like I mentioned, at the top of the show, there's so many people who are in a similar spot as you are, who are listening right now. And, uh, one thing I wanted to say for those of us who come from broken family is we typically struggle more in our relationships and in marriage.

And so if you're feeling like Cina did in your own marriage right now, there's nothing wrong with you. In fact, the research on this topic is very clear. The biggest area of our life that's impacted by the breakdown of our family is our own relationships in marriage. And the basic reason for that, like Chris said, well, is that we don't have a roadmap for.

We've seen a really broken model of love and marriage that gets so deeply ingrained in us almost as if we're programmed to act that same way. And so then when we try to build a relationship, build a marriage, build a family, we feel lost. We're like, I, I don't know how to do this. And that, to me, it sounds like what you went through so much, uh, in your marriage and your family.

And, and it makes so much sense to me. So if anyone out there is feeling that way, if you're going through that, like, there's nothing weird about you. Uh, it makes sense given what you've been through, but there's so much more that lies ahead. If you commit to your healing process, if you face it, you own it.

You heal that. Chris said so well, and that programming can be re you can reprogram yourself too. And that's really what feeling it is all about. And I know for myself, uh, it's just, I've struggled in my own marriage. I've, you know, my wife and I have been open about going to marriage counseling. It's been really helpful and we've made a lot of progress, but especially early on Chris know, for me, it was similar.

It was like, I don't know how to do this. Right? Like the, the model that was set for me with my parents, it was just like horrible, a horrible way of handling conflict. I didn't know how to handle conflict. I was super defensive. I would get really angry, like all this stuff, and I'm still working on some of it, but we've made a lot of progress.

And, uh, so there is hope there's so much hope, but I, I just want people to feel validated in that. Is there anything you would add to that before we move on? I would that if you are experiencing this in your marriage and you are struggling in your marriage, a lot of times you don't want to reveal to your husband or your wife, that weakness or what's going on, and maybe you blame it on other things in the beginning, like what's going on the outside of you.

That's what the devil and that's how the stronghold kind of keeps us, or the wound keeps us and a hold of us is that we don't bring it to the light and we're not expressing and telling people what is actually happening, because we don't want to look like we are struggling or that we don't wanna seem weak, you know, and that we have it together.

But honestly, your spouse, God gave you your spouse to help you to work through this with you. And to be honest about what is happening and tell them, look, I feel inadequate in this, this and this, but just be honest about what's going on and bring it to the light because that leaves no room for the nonsense.

And that's what I found. Just be straight up and honest in all things. And if you can bring up those wounds and things that happen to you and just talk with your spouse, you'll be stronger together. And one thing I will say within your marriages, that outside of marriage, the devil does everything in his power to get you to come together, right?

and, and sleep together and be as close as physically possible. But within marriage, in the sacrament, the devil does everything physically possible to keep you two apart. And wow, you have to guard that because slowly things will get in, in the crack will slowly come in and then it'll get bigger and cause more cracks and more cracks.

And then you don't even realize what happened. So everything that comes in your marriage and in your world, your, your God first marriage is second. And anything that comes. Like crosses that path. You two should be discerning. If it's a job, if it's a new hobby, if it's friends, if it's anything you should be praying about that and your prayer life is going to build your fortress.

And if you're not praying together, you both are, are just it's. You're like free game and you're gonna get picked on constantly and you're gonna struggle and you're gonna have problems. But if you fortify yourselves in prayer and you discern things that come between you, the devil won't have so much wiggle room and control because he operates out of our unhealed wounds.

That's where the devil has power. And for those of you, um, that aren't Catholic, this is what I've experienced in my own life. That that's really where the control lies, but the, the closer you get to God, the more you bring things to the light, the evil one has got to go because he can't stand the light.

He will flee. So the more you put light on something, the, the less harder it will be, and that God's grace will, will abide there for you so much. Good advice there. And one question I heard, um, for any spouses, any spouses listening right now who maybe you suspect that your husband or wife is struggling with something, and you don't know how to go about talking about it.

One great question that I heard from Emily Wilson. She speaks, she's a musician, she's an author. She said, you can ask the question, and this is ideal. They ask obviously before you're engaged, um, or married, but you can do it within marriage two. And she said, you can ask this question. Is there anything that you haven't told me that you're afraid to tell me?

And she says, there's two reasons. That's helpful. One, if the person's gonna divulge something really difficult, they have to kind of overcome two barriers. One, they have to bring up the conversation. And two, they actually have to tell you the thing that can be pretty scary. By asking that question, you're removing the first barrier and then giving them the space to overcome the second barrier.

And so great, uh, little advice from Emily Wilson there. I know we're close to the end of our time together here, Christine, I could talk to you all day for sure, but I wanted to kind of contrast your life. So before the healing process you've laid out what life was like, how broken you were, makes so much sense, but how is life different now that you've gone through this healing?

And I know you would say, you know, you're always a work in progress, but you have experienced, uh, substantial healing. So how is life different now? One as, as you can see, and, and in our conversation, the shame. Is no longer there. And I feel like that really is a gift of God for going through that process, cuz he really does heal you and make you whole and new.

And even when I used to hear those sayings, I used to kind of B him, like, there's just no way, you know, but it really is the truth going through is really the only way, but, but a person that has gone through and made it out on the other side of all of that yuck, um, I can honestly say I'm not ashamed at all.

And I feel like I'm talking about completely different person talking with you today, Joey, it's unbelievable. And that God really wants to do great things. In everybody's life. Like everybody has a purpose. Everybody has a plan and you were created for something incredibly specific. And each one of us is so unique.

And even in the gifts that God has given us, that we need to discover within ourselves, but you can't really discover those things. If you're buried under your, the weight of your own yuck, you know, and the brokenness. But once you get past that, God replaces all of that brokenness. And he fortifies you with beauty and gifts and loves and talents and what it is he truly created you for because he made you for something, but you have to be on that mission.

You have to show up to your own fight. And if you don't show up to your own fight, you're just gonna be where you are standing in front of that Everest mountain of this healing process. And you'll die there and you are made for more than that. And we each are at just a small piece of the massive masterpiece that we're all gonna see in.

Of all of us, we're all just pieces. Right? And a lot of us, it's hard for us to believe that, but it's true. And that's why my women made new. That's why I started the whole women made new ministry is because when I went through my healing process, I needed so much help. I didn't know what the church mother church had to offer, but I know I, I knew it was there and I didn't want women to have to go searching through all these different things in order to get to the good stuff and start a healing process.

So women made knew that if you go to the website, you can find a good counselor. You can find out where to go to Eucharistic adoration, all the different, good Catholic speakers that are out there that can help you all the different, good Catholic resources in one hub, just to start your healing process, right.

Because you're already so wounded and you're going through so much. The last thing you wanna do is research. You know, you just wanna start. It's like, let's just go, it's go time. So you have to get 'em in that moment. And that's what we need to do. And so that's why it started. the women made new ministry and just the face, it own it heal it because that's what we all just need to do.

And it's not easy, but it can be done. And I look back at that moment where I said yes to God. And if I didn't say that, Joey, imagine I wouldn't be sitting here talking with you today. I wouldn't have married. Mason. I wouldn't have my 11 children. I wouldn't have these two unbelievable ministries. God gave me if I just didn't say that.

Yes. And so your decisions right now matter, and as little as you may think it is, it's not, and it holds weight and holds heavenly weight and you have the opportunity to change the course of your entire life. But you have to engage. You have to show up to your own fight. And I know God is calling every single one of you listening.

I don't care your background. I don't care where you've been. I don't care what you've done. None of that because I've been there. And, but God, right now, Is calling you. And I feel like he is inviting you. Whatever's on your heart. Answer it, just do it. Just do whatever that one thing is. Cuz everybody has that one thing.

That's like, oh, I don't wanna do that, but I know I'm supposed to just do it. And you'll see what's on the other side of that. But God is inviting every single one of you. And I tell my kids so they understand on just the small level is that your conscience, that little voice you hear is your compass to heaven.

And as long as you answer and you listen every step of the way, you're gonna be just fine, but just don't ignore it because every time I've ignored it I've regretted it. But every time I've listened, I've never regretted it once in all of my life. And if, if anybody walks. With anything, walk away with that, just listen.

And if I could tell my younger self that that would be the one thing I would say, just listen to that voice. It will guide you. It'll protect you. It'll lead you and you will become who you were created to be just by listening and being obedient period. Excellent advice. Uh, a great resource to help people do everything that you're saying is your brand new book.

It's called women made new reflections on diversity transformation and healing. If you would tell us about it, what's in the book and how will it help the women who read it? What I wanted to do is give women almost. Kind of a spiritual defense plan and to grow in their confidence of who God created them to be.

But we're also, there's so much fear and there's so much woundedness. It's like, you can't just go from a to Z, you know, there's a, B, C, D, and all of these steps. And there's so many new women coming into the church as well and wanting this relationship with God, but they don't know how and. I, I brought 12 powerhouse women together, right?

With that. Each of 'em have a ministry within the church that can help all walks of life of women. And they have each written a chapter in the book. And like for example, uh, Layla Miller, she wrote a chapter on divorce and to help people there. Another one is just like, maybe my chapters and I have three chapters that I actually put in the book and one is like unbroken.

Another one is about spiritual warfare. And another one is really addressing all of the trauma and how I got through that. And I kind of give them like a roadmap of how to heal from that, within that chapter. But one of the most beautiful things out of all of this. Is that mother Angelica is one of the contributors in my book.

And one of the women in my book and E WTN allowed me to use and go through, I spent 300 hours, Joey, no joke, oh my goodness. Listening. We hours of the night doing laundry or cooking dinners or whatever. Always my little earbud, listening to mother Angelica of her earliest shows of these whiteboard shows.

And I was able to pull these old transcripts and go through them. And they allowed me to compile these two unbelievable chapters from mother Angelica that have never been in writing before. And so even her wisdom that is put in here. And even though it was so long ago that she said these things they're so.

In our culture today, right now, with what we're going through. And even one of the chapters about your own personal prison that you actually build for yourself. Mm-hmm and what keeps you there. It's really beautiful. So I just wanted to bring all of these different women, these different ministries. And I wanted to hand women around the world, a book of resources that it doesn't matter what walk of life you come from.

One of these ministries, and one of these women's stories can help you because they're overcomers and we all can be overcomers. And God is calling us to be because we should not be negotiating with our insecurities and we should not be negotiating with our past wounds. We should be going in there and overcoming them, facing them, getting rid of them and marching forward and becoming these strong men and women of God that he's created us to be, to do the things that need to be done in this world right now.

And he's calling all of us, like all hands on deck right now. And I feel like he's got a great plan for everyone. I don't care who you are. So if you feel worthless and unloved, that is a lie from the pit of hell, that that God is calling you. But one thing, people, I think don't realize, and at least with my own personal relationship, Joey, with God, especially God, the father, because I couldn't go to Jesus as a man, I was so wounded by men that I could only handle him in the Eucharist.

So for those of you that have been maybe sexually abused, like I have, and I really struggled with, with God and, and Jesus as a man, I could handle him in the Eucharist and Eucharistic adoration changed my life. It transformed me as a woman and maybe you don't even believe in God, but if you just go sit in a chapel in a church and just say, okay, well, I'm here now, what?

God will show you the now what I promise, you know, mm-hmm, just go and have that courage, but to become incredibly Eucharistic. God has a plan for everyone, but we have to accept that invitation. Amazing. I, I saw that you're giving the first chapter away for free. How can people get that and how can they buy the book?

Uh, if you go to women, made new.org, you can download the first chapter unbroken, and then you can also sign up when the book is coming out, they're taking pre-orders now at EWTN religious catalog and any, any time it could come out and, and get it for sale. But, uh, women made new.org. They can get the first chapter right now.

Beautiful. How can people follow you and get access to your other resources as well? Oh my goodness. Women made new, um, dot com and if you just go to women, made new.org. Everything is there. My Instagram, my radio show, I have, uh, with EWTN every Saturday and, um, all books, resources, website, everything, and women made new really is just women helping women.

I just want people to get the help that they need. And this isn't about competition. This isn't about, um, one upping each other. This really is about helping each other and building each other up and, and healing each other and giving each other what we need to become, who God created us to be and, and men as well.

But my ministry is more geared towards women right now. Amazing. Christina, thank you so much for your time for your story, your vulnerability, your expertise in this area really appreciate you coming on this show, uh, for yeah. Sharing all of that and all the work you've done. I've benefited personally. And I certainly wouldn't be where I am today as a married man with a daughter, if it wasn't for you and Jason.

So thank you so much for, for all that you've done and we'll definitely be here cheering you on and supporting you however we can. I want to give you, uh, the last word and, uh, you kind of gave it already, but just throw it back to you. Any encouragement or advice for any women listening right now who've been abuse or feel broken.

I know you mentioned listening that small voice inside of them, but I wanna give you the last word and just one piece of advice. One piece of encouragement. You're not alone. I felt so alone in what I was going through. And I didn't want anybody to know, because I felt like I was the only one or that carried that kind of shame, or I didn't want anyone to see and just know you are not alone and that you're wanted, you're loved.

And there is a group of women that would love to support you. And then also that God has a great plan and purpose, no matter who you are, where you've been, what you've done, all that matters right now is where you go from here.

So beautiful. I love Christine. I love her story. It's honestly so inspiring to me and really proof that healing and freedom are possible for all of us, even if we don't feel like it is. And on that note, I have a challenge for any of you who find yourself stuck in life, stuck where crystal was in high school.

If you're going to parties and trying to numb your pain with all sorts of things, my challenge for you is this next time you go to a party. Do what she did. Don't drink. Don't do any drugs, just observe, just sit there and observe like Chris Luna did at that party that she went to and ask herself, the question is this the lifestyle I really want?

Is this lifestyle really that attractive? Is it really satisfying me? That's it. That's my challenge for you. If you want Christine's new book, you can go to women, made new.org women made new.org, or just click on the link in the show notes on that page. You could also get the first chapter for free. I read it myself.

It's really good. So I definitely recommend picking that up. And finally, one tactic that you can use to heal is to find a guide, find someone who can guide you in your healing journey. And that's where a counselor, a coach or a spiritual director comes in. And we're building a network of counselors, coaches, and spiritual directors that we trust that we vet that we recommend.

And by using our network, it'll save you a lot of time and effort in searching for a counselor coach or spiritual director. And these people are professionals that we vetted, that we trust that we recommend. And we'll connect you with a trained professional who can give you the help and tools you need.

So you can feel whole again. And if you wanna make use of that, it's really simple. Just three steps. Go to ReSTOR ministry.com/coaching. Again, restored ministry ministry, singular.com/coaching. Just fill out a really quick form and then we'll connect you with a counselor, coach or spiritual director as they become available.

Again, that's restored ministry.com/coaching, or just click on the link in the show notes. Thanks so much for listening. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

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