#085: How to Build a Beautiful Marriage Despite Your Struggles as a Daughter of Divorce | Leila Miller
If you’re a woman with divorced or separated parents, have you struggled a lot in your relationships? If you’re married, has marriage felt extra difficult for you? If so, you’re not alone. That’s actually common as our guest today shares.
In this episode, we discuss the struggles that daughters of divorce face in marriage that daughters of intact families typically never have to deal with and more:
How you’re not doomed to repeat your parents’ mistakes
Stories of marriages in crisis that turned things around
Tips for women from broken families on building a good and beautiful marriage
Advice for any parents in really difficult marriages
Women Made New, a new book on healing for women that features a chapter on marriage for daughters of divorce
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TRANSCRIPT
Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!
If you're a woman whose parents are divorced, have you struggled a lot in your relationships? If your married has marriage felt extra difficult for you? If so, you're actually not alone. That's a really common struggle as my guest today shares, and in this episode we talk about the struggles. That Daughters of Divorce facing Marriage that daughters of Intact families typically never have to deal with.
We also discuss how you're not doomed to repeat your parents' mistakes. My guest shares stories of marriages in crisis that turn things around completely. We offer tips for women from broken families in building a good and beautiful marriage that men can benefit from too. We share practical tips on how to build a virtue such as the four parts of any habit.
And parents, my guest offers advice for any of you who find yourself in a really difficult marriage. And finally, you hear about Women Made New, a new book on Healing for Women that features a chapter on Marriage for Daughters of divorce. This is a really awesome and really helpful conversation, so keep listening.
Welcome to the Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents'. Divorce, separation, or broken marriage so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 85. My guest today is Layla Miller. Layla is a Catholic writer and author whose passion is church teaching on marriage, family, human sexuality, and while pretty much all moral issues, she also loves to discuss culture, society, and politics, and generally from a conservative perspective.
She has published four books. Primal lost the now adult children of divorce speak raising Chase Catholic men. The practical advice mom to Mom made this way. How to prepare kids to face today's tough moral issues. Co-authored with Trent Horn of Catholic Answers and her latest Impossible Marriages redeemed.
They didn't end the story in the middle Lila's first blog, the Little Catholic Bubble was a hub of good conversation and reason debates, and though it's been retired after eight years, it remains online as an. Lela and her husband have 32 years live in Phoenix, where they are still raising the youngest three of their eight children, two girls and six boys, ages 31 to 12.
They currently have 12 born grandchildren and two more in utero and still can't believe what's happened to them these past three decades. Considering how it all started, that Layla says that God is so very good and merci. So if you can't tell by now, there's obviously talk about God and faith in this conversation.
If you don't believe in God. I'm so glad that you're here. I challenge you to listen with an open mind. Even if you take the God parts out, you're still gonna benefit greatly from this conversation. So without waiting any longer, here's my conversation with Layla Miller.
Layla, welcome back to the show. It's been a little while and I'm really happy to have. Thank you Joe. I'm always glad to be here with you and, uh, try to help a demographic that's not really helped very often. So here we go. Yeah, there's such a need as we've talked again and again about, and I'm excited to talk about the new book and your chapter in the new book, and I think it's really gonna be a tool, something that's really helpful, uh, for people from broken families, especially women.
From Broken families because, um, well, we'll get into the exact topic. So I'd like you to kind of tee us up there. What is the book about and your chapter in particular? Sure. So a while back, Kristalina ever asked me if I would contribute a chapter to a book that she was compiling and the book was just released and it's called Women Made New.
It's an EWTN book and what she asked me was actually very intriguing because she's had me on her show a few times to talk about just the pitfalls of being a child of divorce and the different effects in their lives. Cuz she herself is a child of divorce and we've had really good conversations just like you and I have had.
But she, she gave me a topic that was so intriguing to me and she wanted to help women because this particular book, of course, is specifically for women. Although I do think that men could also. She wanted me to sort of compare and contrast what it is like for a child of divorce, a daughter of divorce, to approach marriage or to be in a marriage, versus someone like me who was a child of an intact family, approaching marriage, living through a marriage, you know, going through the years and I thought, wow, that's a.
That's an interesting exercise. And so with the help of our mutual friendly able, who is a child of divorce herself and a contributor to, um, my book, primal Loss, she helped quite a bit because she has done a lot of research in this herself, but I was able to, We kind of discussed those particular pitfalls that a daughter of divorce has that I, for example, never had going into a marriage.
So, and, and we never think about this, right? I, I don't know. I never thought about it. I don't even know if the daughters of divorce actually think about this consciously, but I know I never did. So I got married 32 years ago. I'm from an intact family. I approached the alter with really not really any anxiety at all.
I, I knew that there would. I knew it was a lifelong commitment. First of all, I knew there would be. Problems in marriage. There always are. I knew there would be fights. I knew there would be probably, you know, tragedies along the way. And so all the whole thing, good times and bad, basically the vow, I kind of understood that.
Yeah, that's, that's what we're getting into. Never occurred to me to be concerned about the permanence of the marriage. It just never occurred to me. So you kind of go in almost relaxed, you know, if, if, if you're marrying a good guy, it's not really, uh, an anxiety producing situation. Well, I guess that's not always the case with the daughter of divorce because they are coming into a marriage with so many different wounds, having watched their parents fail essentially at, at doing marriage, that they're going in with a bit of a handicap, if you wanna put it that way.
And so I kind of took a look at all of those different wounds or different ways that that daughter of divorce might approach marriage in a way. That needs to have a spotlight just so that she is aware, like, okay, this is not typical. This is because of the wound from my parents' divorce. Yeah. So we can, we can talk about some of that, but that's basically what she wanted me to do with this chapter.
Amazing, and I'm so excited to read it, start to finish. I've, I've read a little bit of it and I'm already blown away. I think it's, it's really fascinating, like you said, to kind of compare and contrast the different experiences because they are very different and that's a, I think just the key point we want people to walk away with again, I don't think.
As a culture, we look at divorce, we look at broken families, and we say that, well, it's not a big deal because it's so common. It's in fact normal. It's seen as normal, and we're kind of expected to be resilient as children and to move on through life in our careers, in our friendships, in our re uh, romantic relationships and marriages.
Kind of unscathed, but the facts do not bear that. The facts showed, like you said, that there's a lot of struggles, some very serious consequences and negative effects that you have to deal with if you come from a broken family, typically. And one of the researchers who talked about this, which we've touched on a little bit in the past, is, A woman by the name of Dr.
Judith Wallerstein. She was at the University of California Berkeley. She studied children's divorce for 25 years, and she said that one of the main takeaways from her research is that the biggest area of your life that's affected by your parents' divorce is your own marriage. And so we're gonna get into that further, but everything you said just rings so true and it aligns with the research.
That I've seen on this topic. And before I go any further, I just wanna give a little bit of a side note if you guys wanna listen to Leanne, uh, who Lela mentioned. She, uh, came on the show in episodes five, six and seven. We did a three part series on the nine common struggles of adult children of divorce.
It was actually based on Lela's book. Primal loss. So we kind of summarize, uh, the really the most common struggles of this relationships, marriage being one of them. And so if you wanna check those out again, that's episode five, six and seven. But isn't that fascinating how the research bears, uh, that as well that this is like such a struggle for people like us who come from divorced families.
It really is. And uh, and if you think about it really makes sense. Marriage is foundational. It's, it's actually a natural right. For a child to have a married mother and father. It's a God-given, right? And then when that foundation is shattered, that is the model. What is, they call it the School of Love.
You know, the the family. So when that model is blown to bits, we can expect that going forward into relationships, there are going to be huge problems, gaps in understanding, lack of tools, lack of knowledge, and then to go into a marriage, which is. Of course, by its nature, permanent and really want it to be permanent.
I mean, again, every, every daughter of divorce goes into a marriage wanting it to be permanent. But the tools aren't there. The tools aren't there. And, and so the, the first thing I just wanna say to everyone out there is this, is this feeling of isolation or anxiety or fear or lack of trust. These lack of tools, this, all these difficulties, this is completely normal.
There's this silence on this issue where every child of divorce, but really every daughter of divorce, every bride going into a marriage thinks that they must be crazy. You know, it's just, it's unique to, to her alone, and yet it is. Not, it is quite universal in fact, and that's actually relieving to a lot of people to understand that you feel like you're alone when you're having these feelings in your marriage and feeling like you're failing so badly.
And yet it is a very normal common experience for someone whose foundation was shattered to have to deal with these issues in her marriage. Mm, no, that, that's so helpful and one of the ways that I like to think about it. , we really lack a roadmap for love and marriage. We've seen a broken model of love and marriage, and so when it's our turn, we, we feel lost.
We feel unequipped, as you said, to build a good, beautiful, thriving marriage. Uh, because again, we didn't see it ourselves. And our parents example is ingrained into us. It's programmed into us on an subconscious level, like you said. And so what I've seen too is not only do we feel lost, but they actually tend to pick up their tendencies, their virtues, or their vices.
And so if that, you know, if there were more vices when it came to the relationship and you know, for example, not handling conflict well or just being disrespectful or again, like abandoning your family like that, that example is ingrained in us so that even on a subconscious level, we might act from that without even wanting it.
We might want a really beautiful love, a really beautiful. But because of the example we've seen, unless we're very intentional about overcoming that, and of course relying on God's grace as well, um, we can go down that same path, which is really scary. And it's a fear of everyone listening who comes from a broken family.
Absolutely. Right. And so there's almost this, like you said, it's, it's almost unconscious where you just. In the back of your mind are thinking, okay, when am I gonna have to leave? Or when is he going to abandon me? And, and it's kind of this running loop that can be in the back of your mind that you're not even necessarily aware of.
Although some people are, some people do actually. I've had daughters of divorce tell me they're squirreling away money in a, in a sock drawer. For the day that they're very saintly husband. Cuz a lot of times these guys are great, but they fear that there's just gonna be a time where it's just not gonna work out.
It's just, it's just not gonna work out. And, and if you, if what you have seen as a model is that conflict leads to permanent separation, well that's all, you know, that's what you've seen. And so you have this, I guess we could call it a defective witness. So there's this fear that things that are this, this is the part that just makes me so sad as someone from an intact.
I could have arguments with my husband throughout these years. I could have even big arguments and not have the fear that divorce was gonna be thrown around as a word or that, that, that he was going to leave me or that I was going to leave him. Like, it just, it's a safe space. You can be in an argument with your husband and even not talk to him for a couple days or whatever, and not fear that the, that the whole thing is gonna fall apart.
And yet this defective witness that, that the daughters of divorce have is. A conflict makes her feel like the relationship is ending. It is a catastrophic feeling from what I understand that Oh no, it's, it's, it's over. This is a catastrophe when in fact it could be just a normal marital spat. So it's really, I mean, to think, and again, I, I, I come from it almost ashamed that I didn't realize how, how much suffering went on in, in many marriages, because to have that kind of burden and that kind of anxiety on your shoulders all the time, waiting for that other shoe to drop, so to speak, is just excruciating.
What, what a burden, who can carry that kind of burden in addition to just the normal burdens of marriage and life Anyway. Right. No, and you hit on a point That's I think just such. You hit a nerve basically for our listeners, and that is this whole idea of conflict too, in addition to marriage. Overall conflict, like you said, can really be this kind of field of landmines where you're walking through just trying to, you know, not set anything off to the point where it can become really unhealthy.
And so I'd love to get into that further with you. But really in general, I'd love for you to break down for us. The difference between the woman who comes from an intact family and the woman who comes from a divorce family, how they experienced marriage. So the question really is, you know, what have you learned about how a woman from an intact family approaches marriage differently compared to a woman from divorce?
Right? So if, if you're standing on a firm foundation of your parents having been together, my parents before my father passed away, they were married for 54 years. Lots of fights. My dad is a hot blooded, was a hot blooded Arab, and my mom was stoic, kind of, you know, with English background and immigrant versus Ohio girl.
A lot of differences. And there were quite a few arguments, you know, and things were very loving and yet also very volatile at times. So there's, there's this experience of being in kind of sometimes rocky, rocky days with your parents, and yet there was never a fear. That love ends. There was never a fear that, oh my gosh, what's gonna happen here?
I'm, I'm, I'm kind of careening off a, off a cliff. I was very secure. I had no, no issues when they fought, it's like, gosh, that's a bummer. You know, no child likes to see their parents fight, but I knew that divorce was off the table always, and so that security was there. That is priceless. To give that to your child is just, is absolutely priceless.
For the child of divorce, we have an, there's an analogy here in the, in the book, it's, it's like standing on an ice, an ice cap, you know, a floating iceberg, and you could kind of navigate that. If it's firm under, you're like, okay, I'm just standing on this. It's, it's a little rocky sometimes when a split or divorce happens, it's like, okay, the ice, ice cap breaks the iceberg, you know, breaks.
And now you've got one foot on one side and one foot on the other, and things start to move and shift and you're really having trouble keeping your balance. And people might see that you're still standing. Okay, look, she's still standing. Look at that. She's doing great, but you're really putting everything into this and, and it is.
Exhausting. And you're scared and you're anxious, and you're afraid you're gonna fall. And then there might be, your foundation might have split once, but what if your foundation has split with subsequent divorces? Then you've got, you know, four different ice pieces you're standing on trying to stay afloat is to stay upright.
You know, and then some, some pieces might float off like step grandparents that you loved, but they're gone now. Or, you know, step siblings and other parent, you know, stepparents that left. You're navigating so many different things, trying to just stand and it is exhausting all the time. And it can lead to just, again, depression and anxiety.
And there's an idea that you're gonna use a coping mechanism that you might have used as a child in your own marriage. So you're, you're in your marriage and things are, things are happening with your husband. Maybe there's some. , you don't know any better than to use these coping mechanisms that might have kept you afloat, right?
Yeah. As a child, a divorce, but that don't necessarily work when you're talking to a husband. So that's a real problem. And, and these are self-preservation measures. Things like ignoring problems or trying to minimize things or, or putting up a per a perfect facade, trying to be perfect all the time, or, or isolate cutting yourself off and being very independent.
Well, those things aren't gonna work with a husband where there needs to be intimacy and there needs to be friendship and, and, uh, communication and understanding. So there are all these different things that are happening, and yet you, you, you're, again, you're, you're someone who is, is expected to pull this off seamlessly and you might look good from the outside.
It might look like everything's going well, but inside you're just a complete mess and you think that everything is, you know, falling apart and, and inside you might be falling apart. So, Appearances are deceiving. You know, when people suddenly implode and leave their marriages, a lot of times it's because all of this just blew up and, and they just, they just couldn't maintain this balance anymore.
So we have to really be aware that it's normal to have these, these wounds, but we have to give, the daughters have divorced the tools to overcome those wounds and be able to have the stable marriage so that we can, you know, heal the generations. Amen. Yeah. Wow. No, and thank you for going into so much detail and I know, you know, so many people listening right now can resonate with so much of what you said, and I think it is important at this point.
Um, as you alluded to that there is hope and there are things that you can do to cope in healthy ways, but also heal and grow and go beyond. A lot of these wounds and I, I'd love to turn to that, if that's okay. Mm-hmm. , you know, based on what you've learned, what advice would you have for women listening right now, whose parents are divorced when it comes to navigating marriage?
Number one is to always remember that God is with you, okay? God is with you. God is your biggest cheerleader. You know, God and the saints, Mary and the saints, everyone is, is on your side. Everyone wants to defeat this, this spirit of divorce in your family and in the generations. So number one, turn to turn to God in prayer.
Always give it to him. Give it everything to him. There's a principle that I like to. Talk a lot about lately. Actually, I, I learned this from Father Riper, the famous exorcist. He said, and this is just a Catholic principle, so it's nothing he made up. The emotions must always be subordinate to our intellect and our will.
Okay, that's right. Order. And part of what we wanna do as we go into our own marriages, you know, if your child had divorce is to put everything in right order that, that's gonna heal a lot right there. So the first thing we have to know is, again, and I'll preface it by saying this, you don't have to repeat your parents' mistakes.
That that is number one, I don't care if it's a mantra, you have to say every day you're your own person. You make your own decisions, you're your own moral agent. Yes, you may have habits of reaction. That are negative, that are, are unhealthy, but you can change those habits, right? That's how we change from vice to virtue anyways, we, vice is a habit and virtue is a habit and sometimes it's tedious, but you just have to keep repeating the virtue, you know, repeating the truth till we get to a habit and then it becomes a part of us.
So, When we talk about the emotions having to be subordinate to the intellect of the will, what I, what I mean by that and what the church has always taught is everything starts in the mind. Everything is a thought. The scripture says you have to take captive your thoughts. Even sin. Sin begins with a thought.
You have to will a sin. You have to make a decision. So with your marriage and with just, just an understanding of what happened to you as a child or even as an adult, if your parents were, uh, divorced as you were. Your knowledge is that was wrong. That was an injustice to the child, to the children of that, of that marriage.
Someone sinned, right? Someone, it doesn't have to be both, but somewhere, someone sinned enough that that marriage fell apart. Mm-hmm. have that knowledge. Say, okay, that's not how it was supposed to be. It's not right order. It was an injustice. I know that's not how it has to be, and I know that God will help me in my own marriage.
So find out what the knowledge, what is marriage? Uh, you know, it's meant to be permanent. Okay. How can I get there from here? Then have the knowledge of the tools that we need, you know, decide what is it, what do we need to, to go forward here and do and do it well? Again, your number one tool is your. Your number one tool is applying your will to what you know, so that if you get a feeling of anxiety or fear, you're not gonna let that be the determining factor of what you do.
Mm-hmm. , you think and you say, Nope, I know. I know what, I know what marriage is. I know that I love my husband. I know that I'm not gonna repeat this for my children. I'm gonna put my will, I'm gonna, I'm gonna apply my will to what I know. Is God's will and then my emotion can just kind of sit there. I'll, I'll sit there with that, but I'm not going to let it be the determiner of what happens to my marriage.
Hmm. So, so those are kind of tools you have to put everything in right. Order to start to heal the disorder, if that makes sense. Yeah. No, it absolutely does. And that, that's so helpful. And what I hear you saying too, kind of underneath all this, and you mentioned it a little bit earlier in the interview, is you really have to start Yeah.
With the, the awareness and not only of the divorce being impactful on you, but also of the fact that like, hey, it's not uncommon to struggle in these ways if you come from a divorced family. And I think that's so freeing cuz what we've seen again and again from the experts we've spoken to, as well as just the stories that you've told that we've had on this podcast is awareness is that first step in healing and overcoming and in building virtue truly to, to build the beautiful marriage.
And so you truly can, and I've seen this in my own marriage and in the marriages of other children of divorce, is. You can struggle in one area, for example. Conflict has always been something really difficult for me. I, I tend to get really defensive and I think it's because on some level I feel like I'm like kind of fighting for my own survival, which is an overreaction to, you know, what, what the situation usually is.
But it's something like deeply ingrained in me that I've had to work through. And so what I've done is, you know, What's the proper way to handle conflict? Learn that, you know, learn from the experts who figured it out, learn from other really good marriages. And not to hold myself, uh, up on a pedestal by any means, but just to be kind of a Guinea pit, an example to everyone.
I've definitely grown there. I've improved, I've, I'm able to better handle conflict now to where I'm not triggered as much. I don't get as offensive. I'm able to talk things through better, uh, with my wife and even. Healthy resolution. And so I think, uh, for everyone listening right now, who maybe feel, feels overwhelmed with all of this, uh, one of those tools and, and just to give you hope that, that you can accomplish this is, you know, hand on conflict.
Well, and there's other tools as well, but I just wanna give you guys hope that, uh, you don't have to say suck where you are. You can grow, you can heal, you can build the virtues that you need in order to have a, a more beautiful marriage and. Can get to a point where you're not always on high alert.
That's one of the main things I wanted to say, because there's so many of us. I think we do feel that, like you said before, like the other shoe's about to drop, like there's a disaster around every corner. Like we're, our spouse is gonna leave us. Especially if maybe mom or dad just kind of uped and left in the middle of the night, um, we might feel like, oh gosh, that's gonna happen to me at any point.
So I think it's a, it's so helpful, the tips you're giving as well as just this idea that you. Grow, you can improve, you can become a better version of yourself. And that's beautiful because as you were discussing that, it, it's exactly how virtue works, which is it, it just, it becomes a habit. Like you, you had to rethink and redo and, and act differently.
And then really, um, it's almost tedious, but you have to keep coming back to the right way to respond. And, and like you said, you're doing better. Like it's. and that's what people, it was like being an athlete. You know, you can't just give up after the first or second day that you work out. You have to keep going and you're gonna have setbacks and, and when you have a setback, you just start again.
I mean, that's, that's the spiritual life anyway. That's, that's actually how saints are made. And, and I will say this too, like you said, you know, waiting for the other shoe to drop this, this catastrophe that may be just around the corner if, if you are married to. Someone who is from an intact family, they are probably completely unaware of what you're going through internally.
Mm. So it is really helpful, and I've noticed this just from my work with the children of divorce. It is really helpful to make sure that your spouse understands the wounds you have from your parents' divorce. It, it, it will open up their eyes and, and actually it will be a great relief to them usually because a lot of times the spouses of the children of.
If they're not from divorce themselves, they don't understand a lot of the reactions or coping mechanisms or, or fighting techniques or whatever it is that their spouse is doing in the marriage. And it, it, it could be kind of alarming. It could seem very irrational. And that's important for the spouse to know, like, oh, okay, okay.
It's not. It's that, you know, my wife is, is trying to work out the issues that she had as a child from the devastation of, of watching her parents' marriage blow up. But we never think about that cuz, you know, everybody's just supposed to be fine. We're all supposed to just know how to do marriage Well again, the child from an intact family at least knows the part about how to stay.
Hmm. And so the other person doesn't. And so that, that's where all the, the conflict comes in and the, and the unreasonable ways of, of coping. Tell that intact, you know that, that that husband or spouse of an intact marriage, what you're struggling with and why they're clueless. I could tell you we are clueless
We are, we are clueless, and, and if you have a spouse who is from divorce also, then help each other. Then you can really kind of dive into. These mutual struggles that you probably have because there's probably more of that than, than you recognize and, and then you know, that's less isolating you, you both would then have the same types of concerns or anxieties perhaps.
So, so that's helpful too. So God will give us what we need as long as we're aware. Again, like you said, be aware and then, and then speak to your spouse. Hmm. That's beautiful. One thing along those lines that has been helpful for me. Communicating what I need to. My wife and I know for a long time, people from divorced families, we, we tend to be very int.
Not always, but there's this clear trend that we tend to be like very fiercely independent, where we don't really like relying on other people. And the reason that I've come to with that is that we feel like people are just gonna let us down because we felt that by our parents who we relied on more than anyone.
And so we tend to like, kind of shy away, keep people at arms length often. And so, um, it can be really helpful. Communicate that, Hey, you know, I need this from you, I need that from you. This is really helpful for me. And it's kind of humbling to be honest, especially as a man, I feel like to, to tell your wife like, Hey, you know, this is like really helpful.
It gives me life, it helps me to feel loved. All, all those things. And so that, that's kind of something to add along to, uh, what you already said, which is such good advice. And going a little bit further. There. I think there's this need for a lot of us to make virtue really practical. So if it's okay, let's talk about that for a second.
I'd love to hear maybe. How in your life you've focused on building virtue. And one thing I wanted to offer is a great book that everyone could read called Atomic Habits. It's a secular book, but it's, uh, very good. It breaks down kind of how habits are formed and, and how you can go through, you know, replacing bad habits, vices, or, you know, starting good habits virtues.
And there's four parts to have. I've always found this really helpful, uh, in trying to build virtue in my own life personally, what I do, Lela. Every week I get a reminder on my phone to pick a new virtue for the week. And sometimes it's the same in as last week, but it's something that I want to, like, keep front and center.
And so, um, every day I'll get reminded too, like, Hey, you're working on humility this week, or selflessness. And so then I'll of course bring that into my prayer life and ask God for the grace to actually live out that virtue, but in very small ways I can start living that virtue out. And it's not something I'm advertising by any means, but it's something that I'm, I'm trying to do every single day.
And so that little system has been helpful for me, but. Reading this book, atomic Habits has been great because in the book he breaks down, uh, James Claire, the author breaks Sam the habits into four parts. He says, the first part is the cue, whatever triggers you to do a habit. The next part is the craving, right?
The thing that kind of propels you forward toward the behavior, which is the third part that the action that you're taking. And then finally there's a reward. And so a typical example is like eating, right? We all have the habit of eating. So the cue would be maybe the time of day or feeling hungry. The craving would be, oh, I want to eat food, right?
I want this food smells good. I want to eat it. The, the behavior would be cooking the food or buying the food and eating the food. And the reward would be that it tastes good, you know, gives your body the nutrients that it needs, hopefully, uh, and so on. And so what he says is, if you wanna start a good habit, What you need to do is focus on these four parts for the queue.
He said the queue has to be very obvious. The, the, the craving has to be attractive, right? You need to make it attractive to do these good things. Uh, the behavior has to be easy. Doesn't mean that every be, every virtue is gonna be super easy, but it has to be somewhat easy. At least simple. And then the reward needs to be satisfying.
And so you can kind of game these different parts and um, it's, it's really fun to play with and, and can be very effective. Like there's incredible stories of people, uh, kinda on a physical level who've just lost, you know, a hundred pounds because they've used these principles to be more active, to eat healthier and so on.
And so I'm curious in your life, and I mean go on a monologue there, but I'm curious in your life Yeah. What's been helpful for you in terms of developing virtue, building virtue? That's a great question, by the way. I like that a lot. That's really a game plan. I love that. Like it's very practical building virtue.
Well, you know, I'm, I'm 55 years old and I'm just starting to learn how to virtue . But I think, like I said, number one was really helpful. The idea that, you know, emotions are subordinate to intellect and will, that for me is really helpful to me personally because instead of, I, I heard from, I think it was Dan Burke that said, you know, saints don.
React, they respond. Mm-hmm. . So, you know, to get to the point where you're not reacting, and again, I think Father Riper said, you know, we usually, our triggers are antecedent emotions. They're whatever came before, we're just kind of programmed to react the same way we did before. And so, so we kind of have to fight against that, which is, again, what do I know first I have to go to, what do I know?
I have to stop, think, and then apply my will. So that, that has helped me quite a bit. The other thing is, In a marriage, especially focusing on myself and my own vices and my own, you know, virtues and prayer life and overcoming that, again, through, through habituation is important because until we begin to actually focus on ourselves, we can't fix.
Our vices. So the shift from looking at other people to looking at ourselves is, is huge but difficult, especially for women in a marriage cuz I don't know if you know, but many of us women, we like to fix our husbands. So when you do that, you're not looking at yourself. And uh, so for the virtue for women, it's okay, stop thinking how you can make your husband better and start thinking about how you.
Become more virtuous yourself. Yeah. And so, wow. Then it is about, like you said, it's, it's about, uh, very practical terms. And in, in my case, it's more, it has been more about finally, uh, getting into the practice of not being haphazard with a prayer life, for example. Now I do go to daily mass every single day.
Obviously it wasn't easy when you have little kids, but. I don't miss daily mass. Uh, I'm finally, it's easy, you know, it was really hard. Now it's easy. I do a daily rosary and a family rosary that, that was always very hard up until my fifties even. But now I do it and it's very easy. A daily mental prayer.
Uh, a daily novena, all these different, a holy hour a week. Those are things that. You know, I always look forward to my meals every day. I'm kind of a gluttony is kind of one of my things. But, well, if I could look forward to, okay, at this time I'm gonna be eating, uh, my eggs, you know, for breakfast or at this time, why can't I do the same thing with good things that are, you know, more spiritual, a more he, uh, developing virtue.
Like, okay, at this time I will be at mass at this time I'm going to pray my novena. At this time I'm gonna sit in front of Jesus in the blessed sacrament. And I know not all your listeners are Catholic, but for, for the. That's a really wonderful habit to be in, and those sort of things start to change you because then you're starting to think about God more than than the other person you're trying to maybe fix, and even you're putting God above yourself.
You're thinking of God and you want to please him. So it's kind of this self forgetfulness, but being in the habit of doing these things that come as a routine, maybe that's the word I'm looking for. You have to have routines, just like the monks and nuns have, have a plan of life. They actually have a rule, a rule of life.
Well, we, we, in the, we lay people out here in the world. We have to have something that's a bit of a routine that we can kind of get into the habit of these things. So it's not easy, of course it's not. No, but, but it's something that, you know, it's never too late to start. We're showing this to our children.
Like I have kids, you know, from age 31 down to 12. My earlier kids, my older kids, they didn't see us do the habit of daily rosary or family rosary. But, but now, you know, we're in the habit of that for the, for the, for the last few kids. Mm-hmm. . So again, it's not gonna happen necessarily all at once, but it's a goal and you wanna at least have those goals and try to try to fit them in.
And eventually they do become habit. That's beautiful. One of the things that's always been really encouraging to me when it comes to building virtue, cuz it can feel like you're just set back so often it's like, okay, I've been really good with, you know, controlling my temper or something and it's like, oh, then I got in this argument and kind of lost my temper.
It's like, oh, I'm set back to kind of square one. Um, one of the things that's been really helpful is. Just remembering that you can make these 1% improvements, these incremental improvements, and, but in time, if you do that consistently, you're gonna see a ton of growth in that book I mentioned Atomic Habits.
He tells the story of the British cycling team. They were like the worst cycling team in, you know, these, um, Bike races and the Olympics as well. They were just horrible. And they got a new coach. And the coach when he came in, he just focused on these 1% improvements, as he said, these really small improvements.
And they did those, um, over a few years to the point where these British cyclists were ending up finishing first, or finishing in the top five. And I think even winning a lot of gold medals. And so there's an incredible power in that. So if anyone listening, if you feel overwhelmed, feeling like, oh gosh, I have so many vices, I, so many virtues I need to build, uh, start.
Start really small, do those little things every day, the incremental improvements. And in time you're gonna look up in the middle, realize, wow, okay, I am a better person, I'm a more virtuous person. I think that's the goal, uh, for all of us. And there's so much that you said I wanna talk, talk about, but just a few kind of highlights of what I'm learning from you is, one, God's grace is essential.
And for anyone listening who doesn't know much about grace, God's grace is basically his life in us, in our souls. And one of the functions of grace in our souls is that it helps us to do good and avoid evil, right? Live up virtue, avoid vice, and going further in that one of the functions is that it strengthens our will.
So it strengthens our will. So we can choose what is good. Likely mentioned our will is always the really the main factor. In living out virtue. And so that, that was a great lesson Le And then the other thing you said about like just pausing in those moments where you wanna react and instead respond psychiatrist Victor Frankel, he is an awesome quote that I love going back to again and again.
If you've listened to this podcast for a time, you've probably heard me say this, and that is, uh, between stimulus. And response. There is a space in that. Space is our power to choose our response in our response lies our growth and our freedom. And what he's saying there basically is the stimulus, the thing that makes you feel something or wanna react a certain way.
And your response, you're more thoughtful words or actions. Um, that there's a space. And if you can lengthen that space and pause a second, then you're gonna be able to better respond in a way that really aligns with who you want to. The type of person that you want to be. And so I've always found that helpful.
And then the final thing, just to tie this all together, when it comes to marriage, one thing I've learned studying beautiful married couples and reading research about marriage is that the more virtuous the couple, the happier the marriage always. It's always the case. And so what we're talking about here for, especially for all you women listening who come from divorced families, is if you can focus on building these virtue, It's gonna help you deal with a lot of the brokenness that you carry into your marriage to the point where it might not even be a struggle one day, which is really beautiful.
I've seen that in people's marriages, and so that's why we're talking so much about virtue here and, and there's so much more we can say. But le, any final thoughts when it comes to virtue before we move on? Yeah. You know, something that Lean gave me that I included in the book was this idea that we can paint a picture in our mind's eye of what we want.
Of the, of the beautiful family that God intended for us. So, you know, you could think about being there always for your husband, uh, having your children in your home, in an intact family, your children and, and their spouses, and your grandchildren coming home for Christmas. You know, as they get older, and you can paint that picture in your mind's eye and realize this is an ordered beautiful picture.
And, and use that as a motivation, like make it happen. You know, this is my future. This is what I believe God. Has in store for us if we just follow his, his, his law and, and get those habits of virtue and just, and, and keep those vows, those sacred promises that we said before the Lord and witnesses. And there is this, this motivation to see a future very, very different from the one that your parents had.
Not full of brokenness but full of, of love and family and, and, and whole. I thought that was very beautiful. I'm like, yeah, you know, we always tell people to visualize things and why not visualize your beautiful future? When you, when you live your marriage out in a way that is different from your parents and you don't have to follow their pattern, there's nothing that says that you have to do what they did.
Hmm. I love that. That's actually been, that's been really helpful for my wife and I. We didn't pick up on that piece of advice that you said right away, but in time, just realize like, yeah, how important it's to have that vision for your marriage and for your family, and I remember, It took us a while to get to this point.
We had tried for a while and just kind of pretty much failed, fell in our face of like creating this whole vision. But in time we eventually, I remember sitting in like our living room, it was like a dark living room. We're just sitting there just talking, kind of like dreaming a little bit, like, Hey, what do we want our family?
What do we want our marriage to look like? And we went through different areas of our life, just like, you know, you're saying like Lean was saying. And that was really helpful for us. It kind of gave us something to work towards, a mountain top to climb towards, and we broke it down into different areas of our life and we're actually gonna be producing some content in the future on this as well.
It's a really simple exercise that people can go through because I love this piece of advice and so thank you for mentioning that. And again, I've benefited from that same advice and I hope everyone listening to can, you know, make use of that exercise when we're able to put that together. Hmm. Well, and keep in mind a marriage is a life's.
It is a life's work. And if you fall, this is another, you know, just practical tip, you just get up immediately. There's, uh, father Timothy Gallagher does a lot on, um, on this. He has, uh, the book called, I think it's called, it's something about spiritual discouragement, how to overcome spiritual discouragement, and he quotes a blessed or a Saint Bruno Tani, I think his name is, where his whole focus is immediately start.
It, it's just, wow. It's kind of like the mantra in his mind is just start again immediately, and that word immediately and start again, just comes back again and again. So it doesn't matter what just happened two seconds ago. Start again. Everything is new. Everything is new. That's great advice. Thank you so much.
And I want to shift gears a little bit before we finish out our interview and kind of go upstream. So obviously the source of so much of the, these struggles, so many of these struggles that we're talking about for women of divorce or daughters of divorces, Is the divorce itself? Is the dysfunction at home, everything, all the trauma that they have endured there.
And so I wanna give you a chance to speak to the parents. Mm-hmm. , perhaps parents right now who are in a really difficult marriage. What advice would you give to a parent listening who, who does find himself or herself in a really difficult marriage? Take divorce off the table. Even if there is a situation where you have to physically separate, take divorce off the table, because if you take divorce off the table, everything else opens up as a possibility.
There is something in the mind of the church, which we've kind of forgotten, but this is still the mind of the church and it is still in Canon law even. It is what Christ said is what St. Paul said. I'm gonna read you something if you don't mind, that Pope Leo the 13th. And this is in 1880. Pope Leo the 13th said, and again, these are for those hard cases, he said, when indeed matters have come to such a pitch that it seems impossible for spouses to live together any longer, then the church allows them to live apart and strives at the same time.
To soften the evils of this separation by such remedies and helps as are suited to their condition. Yet she never ceases to endeavor to bring about a reconciliation and never despairs of doing so. That's the mind of the church. So whatever you're going through, whatever you're going through, Again, this is a lifetime vow.
This is something that is going to have some people get through it very easily and it's a very happy marriage. Other people have heavy, heavy crosses, but there's no destiny to divorce. That's not destiny. You have a choice. So thankfully, most of these problems and people headed towards divorce are low conflict divorce.
Stay away from any well-meaning friends who are trying to put a wedge between you and your husband or wife, depending on which parent I'm talking to. Most of the time, priested counselors and therapists, even Catholic ones or Christian ones, aren't gonna have the tools to help you. You need to seek out people who don't believe in divorce and go from there.
You need to seek out groups of friends who will not push you to divorce or, or whisper those, you know, pretty lies in your. You are going to make the difference for the generations that come after you. If you, if you break this family, it is likely to be the lot of the next generations, and then Satan has one, not just a soul or two, but generations.
So you have a lot of power in your hands. Do everything you can to take divorce off the table. Patiently, patiently live out those vows and see what God does. He will work miracles. I have seen it again and again. I wrote a whole book on it called Impossible Marriages Redeemed. Yeah. They didn't end the story in the middle.
Don't end God's story in the middle there, there, there is help. There are people who can help. Not as many as we need, but there are more and more coming. Don't give up. Thank you so much. And one kind of side note on that, I, I wanted to ask if there are any stories you can think of from that book and possible marriages redeemed to give everyone hope that, hey, if you push through these hard times, there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Because I think so often when we're in the midst of these, Conflicts when we're in the midst of a lot of brokenness in our marriages. It can be so tempting, like you said, because of our culture, to just think like, well, divorce is the only option there. There's nothing else. So there, yeah. Any stories that you can think of that would offer hope that, hey, if you persevere through this, there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Oh gosh. There are so many there. There's so many. Off the top of my head, there was one woman who, her husband left. two different times. He divorced her two different times, civilly. Wow. Um, they had gotten back together once and divorced again. He had other, another civil wife. One of the times, each time they got back together, she, she'd have another baby.
So she ended up, I think they had seven children at the end. Well, turns out, you know, she never gave up. She never gave up even when they were living in different states, and it turns out that he had a massive conversion. Back to her, back to the faith, back to the family. And they spent the last 20 years, she's now in her seventies.
In fact, her dear, dear husband just passed away. I, I heard like last month, but they got back together in their fifties. Their children are thriving. Every one of their seven children is in a devoutly Catholic marriage. Although I think when they lost to, uh, ALS one of their sons. But he was just a wonderful human being.
Also, she, uh, and her husband lived the last 20 years of their marriage. In absolute joy, in in, in the same type of joy they had when they got married originally. And there was forgiveness, there was redemption, and she went on to really help a lot of younger wives who. Are struggling to try to tell them and explain to them this is about prayer and God's grace and being at peace.
You made your vow and just trust God. He will bring something beautiful out of it. If you are faithful, he will be faithful as well. And we don't know what that's gonna look like. But for her it was the redemption of her marriage decades later to where they had a beautiful life and their and their children are and grandchildren are just thrive.
Wow, that's beautiful. That's so inspiring and uh, I hope everyone can pick up that book and the book Women Made New, in addition to your chapter, there's so many other chapters that, uh, women can, can learn from and men, like you said, can benefit from it as well. So thank you for writing this and I'm curious how can people buy the book and how can people follow you if they'd like to?
So the book, I believe can be bought@ewtnpublishing.com and the religious catalog. If people are familiar with EWTN religious catalog, I believe it's available there. Again, it's Lina Effort is the one who, uh, put this together and people can find me and, and my books, uh, and writings on marriage and and marriage support@laylamiller.net.
That's spelled l e i l a, Miller dot. Awesome. Thank you so much. And I do see the book on Amazon too, for everyone who, uh, wants to grab it there, which is great. But either one works wonderful. And, uh, yeah, again, thank you so much for spending time with us, for all of your wisdom and for all you're doing.
For those of us who come from divorced families who come from broken families, I, I, I can't thank you enough. And Joey, can I just say I wanna thank you for writing the book you did, which is called It's Not Your Fault, which is, I think, one of a kind. It's the only thing out there like that, which helps to, you know, children of divorce navigate through a lot of different difficult situations in their life.
So thank you for that. Of course. Um, you're doing such wonderful work, so I, I appreciate you. No, my pleasure. And I, we have a great team over here and you've been so helpful as well. And so, yeah, I can't thank you enough and um, really appreciate the, the kind words there. I want to give you the last word in closing out the interview.
Uh, what words of encouragement would you give to especially the women listening who come from, uh, divorce families, broken families? Who feel broken, who feel stuck, who are struggling in their own marriages or maybe just afraid of marriage altogether? What encouragement, what advice would you give them as a final word?
I would say you're not destined to divorce just because your parents did and because you have suffering in your life and struggles and trials. That is not the worst thing. In fact, that's a cross that's been given to you for your own sanctification, and if you understand the gift of carrying that cross, you will become a saint.
Your family will benefit. Your children will see you. Overcoming so much of your past to become someone that is renewed. It is a gift from God. Whether you understand that now or not, you will look at retrospect and you will see every struggling and every suffering you have been given is a gift from God for your sanctification and for the the blessing of your family going forward.
Ladies and men, listen. What's one thing that you can do today or this week to heal and to build virtues so that you can build the life and the marriage that you want? Even if you're in a marriage, maybe right now, that isn't the marriage that you want, how can you work towards that marriage that you want, that life that you want?
What's one thing you can do today or this week from this? That will help you accomplish that. I encourage you all to pick up the new book that Lela contributed to. Women Made New. Again, you can click on the link in the show notes to get that. If you do wanna buy the book that Lela mentioned that I wrote titled It's Not Your Fault, A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems From Your Parents' Divorce.
It's really easy to do that. Just go to ReSTOR. ministry.com/books. Again, restored ministry ministry singular.com/books. So just click on the link in the show notes and on that page, you can buy the book on Amazon. You can even get the first chapters for free. And the book itself covers 33 questions and answers in the most pressing challenges faced by teenagers and young adults from broken families, such as After my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted, inadequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me.
What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life event? How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage? And so many more questions. And the content itself is based on research, expert advice, common sense, and real life stories. And after reading, it's not your fault.
Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents' divorce or separation, how to. Build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems. They'll learn healing tactics to help them feel whole again. They'll learn how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God, and how to make important decisions about their future.
Again, if you want that book, you can go to restored ministry.com/books to buy it or to get the first chapters for free, or just click the link in the show notes again, restored ministry.com/books, or just click on the link in the show. And given the topic today, we wanted to offer a free PDF guide to you.
It's called Seven Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce Proof Marriage. And if you benefited from the tips in this episode on relationships and marriage, this content in this free guide follow suit and it even goes deeper as well. And so if you want that guide again, seven Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce Proof Marriage, you can get that@restoredministry.com.
Marriage ReSTOR ministry.com/marriage because the truth is we all desire love that lasts, but if we're honest, most of us don't know how to build it. And to make matters worse, so often we're just discouraged by the prevalence of divorce and we fear that our own marriages are gonna end that way, especially if we saw our parents' marriage.
And that way. And so in this practical guide for, for singles, for couples, we have for a Roadmap for love, and it's based on marriage research, on, on really beautiful time tested couples and Christianity's wisdom. Uh, the guide contains seven tips, as I said, on building that thriving and divorce proof marriage.
And in addition to the written guide, you're gonna get a free 60 minute talk on the same topic. And again, we've heard a lot of great feedback about this, talk about this guide as well, and. To get the guide again in the bonus talk, just go to restored ministry.com/marriage. Just enter your name and email and then we'll send you the PDF guide in the talk.
Again, restored ministry.com/marriage, or just click on the link in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.
