#046: Becoming a Great Parent: Learning from Your Parents’ Virtues and Vices | Miranda Henkel

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What did you learn about parenting from your parents that you want to repeat with your kids? What do you not want to repeat?

The answers to those questions are extremely valuable in helping you become the best parent you can be. But sadly, most of us don’t dig deep enough. Today, we do by talking about:

  • Our experiences as new parents with babies who haven’t been born yet

  • Our fears about becoming parents

  • Answer: Do we feel more confident about marriage or parenting?

  • 6 things kids need from their parents and how to fill those needs

  • Reflect on lessons learned from our parents, good and bad, and how we want to parent

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

What did you learn about parenting from your parents that you wanna repeat with your kids? What do you not wanna repeat? Those are important questions that sadly we don't really think about often. We don't really talk about much, but the answers. Are extremely valuable. It's something I've been reflecting on lately because in no time, my wife, Bridget, and I will be welcoming our baby girl into the world.

And I'm so excited. Can't wait to meet her. Can't wait to love on her. But as someone who comes from a broken family, becoming a dad, brings out a lot of fears and insecurities. And maybe because I don't wanna make the same mistakes that I saw on my parents make. And I know I'm not alone in feeling that we know that young people from broken families feel the same when it comes to becoming a mom or a dad.

So we wanted to do a podcast episode on this topic from the perspective of two new parents. And so I'm joined by Miranda. One of our team members at restored, who's been on the podcast before you met, recognize her, her husband, Steven, and her are expecting a baby girl as well. It's super exciting, really happy for them.

And so we thought it'd be helpful to share our experience of becoming parents to give you some hope that you can do it too, that you're capable of doing it. And hopefully even give some advice based on the lessons that we've learned. And so what you're gonna hear in this episode, we're gonna share our experiences as new parents, with babies who actually haven't been born yet.

We'll talk about our fears about becoming parents. And we are kind of an interesting question. Do we feel more confident about marriage or about parenting? We discuss the six things that kids need from their parents and how to fill those needs. And then we reflect on lessons that we've learned from our parents, the good and the bad and how we wanna parent our kids in the future.

And if you're not a parent, I want you to know that this episode is still for you. This is not just for parents or for new parents, but really anyone who hopes to be a parent one day, or maybe anyone who's really struggling to believe that they could be a good parent one day because of what they come from.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 46 today. I'm joined by one of our awesome team members here at restored Miranda.

Henkel. You might know her by Miranda Rodriguez. That's her maiden name? Miranda was born in Carus, Venezuela. Although she spent most of her childhood in North Carolina when she was 10, her family moved back to Venezuela where her life was changed forever. When her parents divorced a year later, shortly after she and her younger sister moved with her mother back to the United States and settled in Charleston, South Carolina Miranda graduated from Clemson university in 2015, moved back to Charleston where she met her husband and married him in 2020.

They now reside in Florida where her husband is stationed with the us Navy. She now works for ReSTOR to help other children of divorce heal and grow Miranda, enjoys the beach beer, trying to understand poetry and making fun of her husband. Before we dive into this conversation. I just wanna say that we're pretty raw and real in this conversation about our experiences as children and especially the way that our parents treated us and just wanna make it clear.

We don't wanna hurt them. In fact, Miranda. And I agreed that we usually go out of our way to protect our parents even perhaps to a fault. And so just wanna be super clear that we're not having this conversation to demonize our parents or any parents out there, but rather to, to learn from their good qualities, their virtues and their vices, their bad qualities, so that we can become the best parents that we can be.

And so, as you'll hear in the conversation, though, this conversation is pretty honest and vulnerable. We try to keep it very constructive and helpful in talking about this stuff. I hope it's beneficial to you, but please know that we're not here to make our parents look bad or to demonize them in any way.

And if this is helpful, we might continue doing this as our children grow up. As Miranda's little girl grows up and as my little girl grows up, this is a very important conversation. Here it is

Miranda. Good to have you back. Thanks, Joey. It's good to be here. How are you doing? How's your pregnancy going? I, I know, uh, we talk from time to time, but yeah. How are things going? They are going better. The first trimester was really tough but it's gotten second trimester has been a lot easier, which I'm really, really grateful for.

I, I think I was caught off guard with the difficulty of pregnancy. Like you kind of hear about the different symptoms and what different women experience. Um, so it wasn't like a, it shouldn't have been a huge shock, but I think sure when you're going through it. it's just different. And I read this piece that kind of described it as like a moral bootcamp and that really resonated with me because you kind of, you do like start to learn a lot about self sacrifice, like continually putting the needs of someone else above yours.

Yeah. It's not, it's not easy. Um, and it, it definitely is kind of a stripping of things you maybe thought were important or like valued a whole lot for me, things like productivity, you know, making sure I was getting certain amount of stuff done during the day. And like things like, you know, what you weigh and you know, how much you're working out, like all that kind of changes.

And it's really important, you know, for you to. Like to be more cautious, I guess, like in terms of, you know, getting more sleep and eating well and not pushing yourself too hard physically, but letting go of those things has been harder than I, I thought, because I think more of my worth was attached to them than I realized.

Hmm. It's been, yeah, just like a humbling experience. Very, I think kind of purifying of, okay. Like these are things that I kind of thought that made me valuable and made me important and made me feel good about myself and now I don't have them or I have them, you know, to a lesser extent. So now what, and so, yeah, it's definitely been, and I think too, there are certain things in our culture that affect that mindset because, you know, beauty and, and health and all these things are really, really.

Valued. And so when you feel like you're falling short, because you're physically in kind of a different state than most people, it's just, yeah. It's like, wow. Like, you know, where is my place in society now? Hmm. And so it's just been a kind of interesting experience and I am starting to see the value in it.

Um, I'm starting to see like, okay. Like it, it is important to grow in virtue as you're getting ready to become a parent. And just in general, like, that's, that's just a good thing to do to grow as a person mm-hmm . Um, but especially as a mom, like, you know, you, you want to be selfless. And so all of this stuff is kind of preparing you for that, but yeah, it's, it's hard and, um, totally.

So, yeah, so it's overall, I'm doing well, and I'm definitely grateful that some of the really hard stuff from the first trimester has. Has gotten better. So. I'm really thankful for that. Um, but yeah, it's definitely kind of been an interesting, interesting four months. Yeah. So it's not just changes physically.

There's a lot of other, a lot of other things going on, um, inside you, which is good. That that's beautiful. It's so good to be challenged and to be growing like one of my greatest fears in life is just being complacent and comfortable and, you know, I definitely have to fight that frequently because it's just so easy in our world to become complacent and comfortable.

But, um, it's so good when you experience discomfort. I think because it, it often is maybe not always, but it often is the sun that you're growing something good is happening. So I'm glad to hear that. I mean, it's, uh, I'm sure not fun in the moment, but I think you'll look up and sounds like you already are and see.

Okay. I've made some progress. Yeah, no, I definitely think that, like you said, discomfort is kind of needed for growth. So it's just embracing the discomfort. Totally, totally. And I've heard that a lot about the first trimester and that's what Bridget experienced as well. So she was pretty sick during the first trimester.

We had a first pregnancy as you know, and that was actually worse in the first trimester, uh, for her like a lot of nausea and other things going on. And then, um, we had a miscarriage, which people I've said on the show before, and then, um, this pregnancy, so this is our second and things were a little bit better in the first trimester from my point of view, but maybe she was a different story, but it's uh, yeah.

Then second trimester got a lot better and now we're in the third and baby's just getting big and it's just getting more uncomfortable for her, but she feels pretty good, which is. Yeah, that's awesome. I wanna go back to some, you said quickly, which is just, I think so many of us attribute our value to some characteristic of ourselves, right?

Like growing up, I was athletic, like, like my whole family is, and I was never, you know, the greatest athlete didn't go pro in anything. I didn't go D one or anything like that, but I was a good athlete for, for where I was. And after, you know, I played a year of baseball in college and then after. Um, no, you know, sports aside from, you know, just messing around with friends or intermural sports in college.

And, um, it was a big change for me, cuz I was like, okay, I literally, that was such a big part of my identity and then it's gone and you know, I was used to being like the captain on the team and used to being good at sports. And then now I'm not really kind of in that environment at all. So it does challenge you to kind of redefine your identity, um, and challenges you to, uh, realize that maybe those things that I think are so important, aren't actually as important as I thought, right?

Yeah, no, that's totally a hundred percent true. And even the things that everyone else thinks are so important, maybe aren't that important so it's like totally. Yeah, it definitely it's one of those things that I don't think you would come to you, you may like intellectually understand, but until you have to kinda live without it.

You don't really face. You don't really confront that reality. Totally. And I think you, ladies face so much pressure from society to be perfect, to be smart and sexy and successful and all these things. And, uh, I think there is, yeah. When, when you're pregnant, obviously there's so many things that are changing.

Like you said, you're not able to do the things that you normally did, so you don't really fit that mold in the same way that maybe you once did. Um, and, uh, yeah, that can be really challenging, especially like I'm saying to someone who got a lot of their value, like you mentioned from maybe the way that they look or the things they were able to do, uh, physically like sports and all that stuff.

So it is, it is a big change. So I don't envy you. I'm glad, uh, things are going well. Yeah, and I'm definitely feeling better. So I'm really grateful for that. That's great. I wanted to ask, how do you feel about being a mom? Um, I'm definitely daunted. Um, I think just the level of self sacrifice that is clearly necessary, um, is something that is escapes me, you know, just, I don't, I can't, it's hard to fathom that level of just dying self.

And I do. I mean, I, I, it seems like it's something natural. It just because so many moms seem to embody that, um, it does seem like to a degree. Yeah, there it is kind of innate, so I'm like really like, okay, , we'll see, but I am intimidated by, by how much you really have to die to self and learn to. Yeah, put someone else first and I don't think it was, I, I remember so clearly having a conversation before I knew right before I knew I was pregnant with a friend and I was like, I had been reading mother Teresa.

I was like, yeah, like I really just want to give myself to something, you know, the, and I just thought it was so beautiful the way that she just totally gave herself for this ministry, you know, of helping the lepers in Calta and serving them. And I was, you know, I felt that longing and then like a month later or less, I, it started and, um, I didn't realize how attached I was to kind of my single, even though I wasn't single anymore, but you know, just the idea of like being able to do kind of whatever you want whenever you want.

And. yeah, like that independence, that freedom, that status almost of mm-hmm , you know, you're young and you're untethered all that stuff. And I did not realize how attached I was to those things until I started confronting the idea of motherhood. So overall. Wow. Yeah. It's a little like overwhelming, but, but I'm also hopeful, you know, that when the baby comes, there's gonna be more of a, it like just falling into place, you know, it just seems like so many moms.

I talk to just talk about the joy and the, I guess like sense of satisfaction that they get from, from motherhood. So it does seem like there's a lot of goodness there. It's just, I think when you haven't had a kid yet, mm-hmm , uh, even though you're, you know, even though I'm, I'm pregnant, It doesn't sink in the same way yet.

Totally. Yeah. We'll have to have this conversation again after our baby arrives and your baby arrives. Yes . So I'm sure it'll be a different conversation at that point. No, that, that makes so much sense. Like it's kind of the intimidation factor and I think. Coming from, you know, a broken home play, plays a role in this to, I thinking about kind of what I'm, uh, feeling about being a dad, a new dad, I would say I'm excited.

It's kind of surreal at the same time. It's like, wow. Like I have a baby, like that is unreal. Like how did this happen? yeah. And, uh, and yeah, just like you said, kind of overwhelming. Uh, but at the same time I feel ready. And I think part of the reason for that it may be kind of odd, but part of the reason for that is that, uh, in, in a way I've kind of played that parent role for my siblings, um, at different points in life.

And so it's kind of odd, but I do feel a little bit more confident about parenting than I did or do even about marriage . And so again, I, I think that experience I've had in the past, uh, does, does play a role cuz I'm. Number two of six, we have a big family. Mm-hmm so I, you know, at times when dad wasn't around, I just kind of assumed that role of being father in a way to, to my siblings.

So, yeah, kind of interesting. Um, I was telling someone about that lately and I don't know it is. Can you relate to that at all? About being more confident, maybe about parenting than about marriage? I would say. Yeah. Like I, I don't feel the same acute fear that I feel about marriage. Like I think with marriage, it was, it was really scary.

It was really almost painful in a way to think about cuz you think about all the ways it could go wrong and I don't feel that way with parenting. Um, I don't have that same phobia almost if you wanna call it that mm-hmm so I do feel in that regard a little bit more equipped. I do think our experiences were different because like you said, you're, you know, number two of six.

So you had several younger siblings that. You know, you really stepped up and had to kind, I take care of. And so you are more comfortable in that caretaker role. I think something I regret from yeah, like the divorce and, and how it all went down is that I do think I kind of neglected my little sister.

Like I was so caught up in just what I was feeling and how to cope and almost like isolated myself a little bit. And I do think Christina got, you know, she just, I think she got neglected a little bit, at least, you know, maybe not by my parents, but I feel like I could have been a better sister to her if I hadn't been kind of.

Dealing with certain emotional difficulties. So I don't think I'm, I don't think I feel the same level of confidence that you do. Um, because I kind of remember that experience and I wish I had handled it better. I think you were able to kind of assume the responsibility, you know, you weren't, wasn't really meant to be yours, like that should never have happened, but I think now you're more equipped going into parenthood because of that experience that you had.

Hmm. Yeah. No, well, let's hope so. maybe my feeling of confidence is like MIS founded, but I, uh, no, I, I hear what you're saying and that's a tricky spot to be in. Like you said, it's not your role to be Christina's parent, but you know, at the same time, right there, there's a certain gap maybe that needs to be filled and there's yeah, there there's of course your sibling relationship, which is hard.

And it's so tricky, just touching on this idea that we have to step into the parent role. Mm-hmm, , it's such a weird thing because I know for me, uh, there was just a season that I just had to do that in and I tried not to let it dictate my entire life, cuz I could have just never. Moved on with my, I know people like that.

Like I know people who, they just see that their family's really broken. They wanna be there for maybe mom or dad and their siblings. And they just like, don't move forward in life. Not that that's a bad thing. Like maybe in certain cases that's okay. But I've seen it be bad. Like I've seen it be detrimental because they're literally not moving on in life, not doing what they should be doing or what they feel called to be doing, because they feel the sense of obligation to be there.

Mm-hmm and so it's a tricky balance, but I like what I, what I typically tell people, if I'm talking to 'em about this is there might be a season in life where you have to fill that role. You're not supposed to. But if there's just that void and there's no other alternative, then you might just need to now, if there is an alternative, a good alternative, then that should be taken so that you can just be a kid, you can go through life and just grow up.

But if you can't find that alternative and you have to fill that role fully, or in some ways, then I personally think it's kind of a matter of necessity. It's like, okay, I just have to fill this role, even if it's not ideal. Um, but never wanna remain in that position. I'm curious what you think about that.

That's just kind of what I've come to over the years. Um, any thoughts on that? Well, I think it's one it's really like so cool that you had that awareness of like, you know, my siblings need me and I'm kind of it right now. You know, I, it's not supposed to be that way, but like you said, there's this void and I don't think I had that mental.

Awareness. Like, I don't think I'd ever clicked of like, oh yeah. Like my sister needs someone to help her with, with all this stuff. So I think, I think I do think that it's true. And I think that if you can realize that it's SU it is gonna be super helpful for them. And also, and you'll, yeah. I don't know if you'll, this will resonate with you or not, but sometimes when you help someone else, you know, it kind of helps mitigate your own grief in a way.

Mm. Yeah. It's something about, um, switching the focus to some, to another person and having a sense of like, okay, you know, X, Y, Z is falling apart. I can't do anything about that, but I can do this. You know, I can be there for this person. I can comfort or whatever it is. So I do think that in a way, like, again, like you said, it's not ideal, it's not, what's supposed to happen, but it could be beneficial, you know, mutually beneficial for, for your siblings and for yourself, if you're able to, to offer some comfort that way.

Totally. And I totally relate to what you're saying. In fact, that was really helpful for me. And one of my mentors communicated that to me, that, you know, one of the things that you can do to help heal is to take the focus off yourself. And there is a balance there. And I know, I know you would agree with this, that I think some people use that as an excuse, never to deal with their issues and never to heal, never to face their brokenness.

I think I I've certainly done that at times, but, uh, at the same time, I do think there's something very constructive and healthy about looking beyond your own pain. And one of my favorite movies, probably my, my favorite movie is Batman begins, um, a Batman fanatic. I love it. And in that movie, there's this great line.

Uh, Bruce is talking to his childhood friend, Rachel and Bruce had kind of been very bitter after his parents got, uh, shot and died. And he, you know, had been off to college. He went to like Princeton and he came back for the hearing of the guy who killed his parents. And basically he wanted to get revenge and kill the guy who, who shot his parents.

And anyway, without going too Mo too into the story, the, the guy ended up getting shot by someone else. And so Bruce, uh, was kind of relieved and grateful, but at the same time, he was disappointed that he couldn't do it. So the, the, what was going on in the story is that. For years, he was just so wrapped up in his own pain that he just didn't help anyone else.

He, he was just stuck in his own pain and Rachel challenged him and they were driving in the car and she's like brought him through a really bad part of Gotham. And she said, look beyond your own pain, Bruce. Like there there's, there are people who really need you. And that always stuck with me. And so I tried to do that, you know, growing up when I know I was dealing with things, but I knew that, okay, like I need to deal with those things, but at the same time, I can look beyond my own pain and help other people.

Totally. Yeah. No, that's a great example. Yeah. Sorry to go through all of that and begin, but you get the point, but. Yeah, I, uh, was also thinking just once you get to the point of leaving, it can be difficult too. Uh, it can, you can kind of create a void cuz if you're a crutch for your siblings or your mom or your dad, then once you pull away, like, are they gonna fall apart?

Like, what's it gonna look like? And so that was a big concern of mine. And I had to wrestle with, do I move on and just pursue my girlfriend at the time he was on my wife or do I kind of just stay at home and try to help out around here and all that. And so I really was conflicted with that as well. And what I came to was that it's could actually be more helpful to them in the long.

If you move on with your life and, and this isn't maybe true in every situation, like I said, there's seasons where you may be more needed, but I think, uh, one is you're modeling what it looks like to have a healthy life and, and to move on and to like live out your vocation. If you, you know, getting married to, to date and to get married and to build a family, like that's a beautiful thing.

In fact, as we've talked about a lot in the show, one of the most healing things for those of us who come from broken homes is to see healthy marriages and families. It's just so good for us. It starts to rewire that broken model that we have inside of us that says that, you know, love cant last, and this is how it looks typically and all that stuff.

So that's really good. But then also people need to learn how to stand in their own two feet. That's really important. And so I think that's a good lesson now that we're talking about parenting is that, you know, you never want to be the type of parent. Or parent role where someone's so relying on you, that they can't stand in their own two feet.

And so I think that's one of the dangers too, with filling that parent role is that you can become maybe too close to someone in an unhealthy way to where when you do pull away and move on with your life, like you should, uh, they can be left devastated. Yeah, absolutely. Let's go back to, uh, just talking about being a mom, I'm curious, what are some fears that you have about being a mom, especially someone who does come from a broken family?

I think the, the biggest one and it's probably the most obvious is like, how, how am I going to wound my kids? Yeah. It's just something that I, I feel like it comes up so often of like, oh yeah, like my mom or my dad, like, they didn't do this or they did this. And like, it affected me this way and you're like, oh my gosh.

So it's just, I think even really good parents. Do I don't know if it's fair to say, do some sort of damage, but like, you know, don't get it right. Perfect. Perfectly all the time. Mm-hmm . And so, and, and then I think a lot of times in whatever way they fall short, like there is kind of a, a repercussion and that doesn't mean that where you have no hope or that it's, um, impossible to be a good parent without being perfect.

But, um, it is something that looking back on yeah. Like my own childhood and especially the divorce and realizing that, you know, your parents really have a huge impact on just who you are as a person and the, the trajectory of your life. And so it's kind of like, yeah, like how, how am I going to, to hurt my kids?

You know, because I think as much as you try. Not to in one way or another, we're gonna, we're gonna miss the mark. So that's, I mean, you know, a little bit somber, but definitely something I wrestled with. Yeah. And then I think it's something else which this isn't really necessarily from my family. It's just kind of from observing society in general now, but like, I really, you know, want to raise kids who have good values and I've seen even really good, or at least parents that I deem to be, you know, really good people and, um, to be good parents I've seen even their kids, I guess, I don't know if lose the way is the right word way to put it, but just kind of not have a sound moral compass mm-hmm and it's like, wow, like, gosh, like these, these people who, who seem to be, you know, just good people and doing the best they can, like even.

You know, their kids somehow I think get a little lost sometimes. And so I think that's another fear I have is, is raising kids who, who don't have good values. And then I think it was Chris. I think it was him who said, you know, I thought I was a perfect parent until I had a kids. , you know, I think it's like my husband and I have a lot of conversations about like, oh yeah, like some people do this and we don't wanna do that.

Or, you know, X, Y, Z. And it it's really easy from where I'm standing right now to say, yeah, this, you know, as a parent, you should never do this. Or I can't believe people do this then I think once you have kids, like a lot of that goes out the window. I think it's just a lot hard. It's just not that black and white as you, as it seems, um, beforehand.

And I think, uh, cryonic was relating it to Rath specifically, like, I didn't know what Rath was until I had case. And I was like, oh my gosh, you know, like, it's hard to imagine, you know, like really losing your temper or something with, let's say a four year old or something mm-hmm . But I do think that it's something that, yeah, like it's, it's really challenging.

And I do think that I'm gonna be pushed in that regard. And so it's like, gosh, I hope I, you know, can I, can I handle this? Well, like, do I have what it takes to not lose it? So I think those are kind of the things that I have been kind. Percolating the past few months. Okay. No, that makes sense. And I would agree that in, you know, our parents I'm sure.

And I even know this, uh, there were just things in their lives when they were growing up, that their parents did to hurt them. And you know, it's not to demonize our grandparents or anything like that, but it's just, it's true. Like we just hurt people, especially those that we love the most. And it's so unfortunate, but it's just the broken world that we live in.

And we're gonna get to this in a little bit, but. It's really hopeful to know that it's okay. If you're not perfect, it's okay. If you hurt your child, it's okay. If you, um, fail at times, but what matters is of course making up and, uh, reestablishing that relationship and making things right. And we'll get to that in a little bit, but I couldn't agree more though, the relationship that you have with your parents growing up is the most important relationship in your life.

At least the most formative relationship in your life. And so it really is important to reflect on it and to think back like, okay, what was this like? And again, we're gonna get to that in a second, based on the podcast episode that we're gonna chat about with Adam Young, from the place we found ourselves, there's a lot of good things in there to, to talk about it, but you're so right.

About being a critic. Like it is so easy from the outside looking in to be critical. It's so easy. For example, , you know, where you just use example of podcasting, it's so easy to listen to a podcast and be like, ah, that was so annoying. Like the way that that guy talked or, you know, whatever the music and, uh, and yeah, there might be valid concern for those things, but it's like, okay, do you have a podcast?

Like, are you a pro in this area? Like, it's so easy to be a critical once you get in the midst of it, it's not as easy as it seems. And so I think that's true with parenting too. Like you said, once we're in the midst of it, um, it's gonna be different. So we'll see, we'll have this conversation again. in a little bit, and that's true though.

Yeah. Yeah. It would be, it would be great to kind of take people along this journey with us. Uh, some fears on, on my end, kinda as a dad. Same as you, like, I'm afraid how my brokenness will affect them. I'm afraid of how, you know, my imperfections devices that I struggle with are going to impact them. And yeah, man, it is so humbling and it definitely motivating to wanna work on yourself even more also.

Yeah. Yeah. Just in marriage too. It's like your kids are just absorbing on an unconscious level, everything you and your spouse do and say, and everything it's like overwhelming because literally without saying a word, you're teaching them how to love, and that is intimidating because you might not be very good at it.

And I know I'm not at times. And so like, man, I'm, I'm afraid how that is gonna affect them, uh, just as people, but also, you know, in the future, in their own relationship. So that, yeah, that is, uh, kind of scary. Do, do you relate on that front? Yeah. I mean, I, I, while you were saying that, I was like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

And I think my husband and I do think he is really good at being ch you know, charitable, um, in his actions. Like that's, I don't know. It's just very evident to me. And I'm like, I was thinking, he was like, yeah, like he must have learned that from his parents. I think it is a little daunting that they they're just little sponges.

Exactly. And they just take in so much. And I was with, um, my nephew this past weekend and, you know, seeing him chase after the tools that his dad and his granddad were using and then try to use them. , you know, you just see how much that they're taking in and, and yeah. It's like, you don't wanna mess this up.

It's not just about how you talk to them or what you say to them, or even how you treat them. It's so much about how. You are around them and how you treat your spouse and how you treat people around them that you don't like, you know? And so all those things it's like, yeah, it is a little daunting. It's.

Being put on stage, but the stakes are so much higher, you know? Totally. Yeah. It's game time. It's it's tough. And yeah, I, I think I, I wanted to say Miranda, you're gonna make a great mom and I know Steven's gonna make a great dad. And I think it's so important for those of us who come from broken homes, just to hear that and just receive that, cuz we are capable, you are capable of being a great parent.

And so I'm excited to see you grow in that role. I'm sure there'll be bumps along the way and that's be expected. But yeah, I think, and everyone listening, you're capable of, of being a great parent, you might have to work at it. You might fail a lot. You might need to, um, really grow in some areas of your life to get to that spot where you can be a, a good parent, but you are capable of it.

Yeah. Cuz I think a lot of times we probably believe and feel that, oh, I'm just so broken that I'm not capable of it. I never will be, but, but that's just a lie. Right. Yeah, you have to be hopeful. Absolutely. Another fear of mine. I guess it's more of a concern maybe than a fears, just how my kids will, um, just be impacted by my parents' divorce, how they're quote unquote, like grandchildren of divorce.

And, uh, one of my close friends, he was telling me about this recently, like his parents are together and, uh, you know, have a pretty good marriage and, uh, but his grandparents are divorced and he was just explaining how that's impacted, uh, him and, and especially his parents over the years. So I just, it's difficult to think that, you know, it'll be kind of confusing to her.

To to see like, oh, Hey, why are, you know, grandma and grandpa not together? Like, why don't they live in the same house? Yeah. It's just kind of breaks my heart to think this is this little girl who just will be asking these really legitimate questions. And there's really not a great answer for it. Yeah. I honestly hadn't really thought of that, but it's so true.

Yeah. So, and then some other things kind of that go along with that is just the drama and tension. I know different families are, are different. Some parents, uh, divorced parents get along pretty well, but I know there's always drama and tension at life events like birthdays and holidays. And like we had a baby shower recently.

I made the difficult decision to, uh, have two separate ones, one for mom, one for dad's side. And I, I kinda was going both ways cause my parents are getting along better now, which is good. But, um, I just felt like based on the past between our families, at my mom's side, my dad's side, it was gonna be more comfortable for the guests who were there and, and that just caused tension and it, it was difficult.

And my dad obviously had to plan a baby shower, which , you know, you know, it's not something a guy has to do every day. So that was just, just seeing that it was kind of a reminder, like, yep, there's gonna be more of this in the future, which is, uh, concerning. And then of course, you know, balancing everything out.

Spending time, you know, with each parent, cuz I think it just, you're your time. It's like, not that our parents don't love us and wanna see us, but once there's a grandchild, what I've seen with my friends who have grandkid or have kids and their parents like wanna see them, it's like, oh my gosh, there's no one.

They wanna see more than the grandchildren. so it's like then, you know, splitting that time between parents can be really difficult and there might be some hard feelings there if you maybe spend more time with mom than with dad and yeah, lots of challenges ahead. I'm hopeful that we'll be able to figure them out kind of as we go through those stages, but it's certainly not gonna be easy.

Absolutely. You mentioned before that, you know, even the best parents hurt their kids. And I think we all can agree that nobody's parents are perfect, but I think there is, um, something that we can learn from the good and the bad that we've been through some important lessons. And so I, I think we need to talk about this stuff.

It could be kind of uncomfortable, but I think it's, uh, if it's done out of a motivation to learn and to be better in the future, as opposed to just like bashing our parents, which you and I are not interested in doing then, uh, I think it's really good and helpful. So I wanna have that conversation right now.

Uh, MERTA, what did you learn about parenting from your parents that was good, that, that you would wanna repeat with your children? I do think they got a lot of things, right. And one of them was this idea of like the world doesn't revolve around you, you know, like you're not. , you're not the center of the universe.

Like you, um, are part of bigger reality and in a sense, like, it sounds harsh, but I think it's good for you to recognize that there's more going on than just what you're going through, what you're experiencing and people aren't always gonna play by your roles. You know, sometimes you have to kind of accommodate, you know, an objective morality or a truth that, that exists kind of apart from you or outside of just what you think or what you feel.

I think that was a good lesson for us, cuz I think we all learned pretty quickly, like, you know, to adapt to whatever situation we were in and to like work for whatever it is we wanted to, and like in line with that, another thing that they, you know, either directly or indirectly taught us was, you know, entitlement.

Can they get you anywhere? Like you, you're not owed certain things like good grades or success in work, or, you know, just whatever goals that you want to achieve. Like there are things that you need to work for. And it kind of, I think it was really healthy thing for us to learn at a young age because it made it less disappointing.

you know? Yeah. When you didn't get exactly what you wanted. Um, and it also kind of put in the idea of like, okay, maybe it didn't work out this time or, yeah, I didn't pan out the way I wanted to, but like, I can strive for a goal and I can still learn from my mistakes and, and keep persevering. So it wasn't like the end of the world.

If something didn't work out the way you wanted it to the first time. Because you're not owed it, you know, it's something that you, you can work for and grow through that experience, even failure, you know, that's something they can learn and grow from something else that was kind of, it seems trivial, but I think it was really good for us was like, we, we, we had to clean up after ourselves from a pretty young age.

Like I remember mom saying, you know, if you don't put this toy away, like I'm throw, I'm throwing it away. Ouch. . Yeah. And so, you know, as like a six year old, you're like, that's brutal, but I think it really like all three of us are like pretty, I, I do think like cleanliness an organization is really important.

Like I think it's important to just having a healthy life is just things being more or less ordered. Mm-hmm I think it helps you have clarity and peace. and I think that the three of us kind of, I mean, my brother to a lesser degree, but I think the three of us, you know, understand that like people aren't waiting around to serve us.

Like you, you know, you have to do your part and especially take responsibility for your actions and also just practically, you know, take care of the space that you're in, you know, because it matters. Totally. No, that's so good. Those are beautiful lessons. And, uh, you're you're number two of three. Is that right?

Yes. Yeah. Second child is the best just in case anyone was wondering, so nice work there, Miranda job. Um, and then you have one step-sister as. Correct. Okay. No, no. I just wanted to make sure everyone kind of knew. Yeah. Okay. Such good lessons. And I, I just love that. I think when we're born into this world, we kind of think that we're the center of the universe and in real ways we are at least for our parents, but eventually yeah, you're right.

We gotta kind of shake that and yeah, love what you were saying about entitlement and just learning like that personal responsibility. I think that's so good. And my along the lines for me was. Hard work. I, I learned that from my dad, for sure. He's the still the most hardworking man that I know he worked so hard and he was in construction all of his life.

And he is very good at what he did, he, what he does. And so learned a lot about having a good work ethic and like getting after it. Like you have to put the work in, you're not, you know, along with what you said, you're not just gonna be handed things in life. You have to go and work at it and you're probably gonna fail.

You're probably gonna get knocked down from time to time, but you just have to keep going. And so that was a great lesson from him. And then also, you know, my, my dad, he, yeah, he has his own demons, his own issues. But one of the things that I saw a lot, at least with like other people, uh, he's just so selfless.

Like he was always ready to go above and beyond for, for other people, which, which I always admired. And that again, kind of taught us, like you said, to take. Eyes off yourself and look out to, to other people. Well, my mom from my mom, I think I learned, um, how to be more of a critical thinker. This might sound kind of interesting, but she, uh, was kind of ahead of her time in a lot of ways.

She's not like a, a hippie by any means, but, um, but she was more of like a natural person in a time where that was just not very popular. Like now it's much more popular, but, um, in her time, like conventional medicine, not that she's not against it she's actually a nurse, but, but she was just a critical thinker about some basic assumptions that were made in like medicine such as breastfeeding.

Like it was not popular at all. At that time to breastfeed your child, it was popular to give them a bottle, to give them formula, to give them like cow smoke or goat smoke or something. And she figured out through, you know, talking 'em with other people that actually. This is best for the child to, to, to breastfeed.

And so I really admire her for that. And so she kind of taught me to, um, yeah, just like question things, like think critically, don't just go with the flow. Sometimes you're gonna have to go against the tide and it won't be easy, but it will be worth it. And so I, I really appreciate that as well. And she did, she prioritized us kids.

Uh, so well, she really, uh, we were the most important thing in her life and, you know, for better or for worse, she really, really put us at the top of her priority list and worked hard to, uh, make sure that we, you know, were loved and have what we need. And so I really appreciate that. And a along with that too, I learned her from her, the ability to just sacrifice, like she's been through a lot just with the whole breakdown of the family.

Uh, both my parents have, but especially her and I have seen her just. Be selfless lately you touched on before. So those are definitely a few things that I, I wanna repeat in my own parenting. That's awesome. That's so beautiful. And I, it reminds me of my grandmother. I, I told you she passed away last summer, but she was kind of that way too, where she didn't want to get an epidural.

And that was like, unheard of like that all the doctors were like, you have to, you know, and now people are, you know, a lot, it's a lot more, there's a lot more variety. People kind of see the good in, in getting the epidural, but also like the downside, but things like that, like, she was just kind of ahead of her time.

Like again, with the health concerns, you know, she kind of was like, always ahead of the curve a little bit with that. So it's kind of cool. That your mom was like that too, or is like that too. Yeah. Okay. No, that's so interesting. And I think there, there is a lot of wisdom that can be, I think, just passed down from generation to generation and, um, it, it is great to see like medicine kind of catching up with some of that stuff.

And then also, like you said, it's, I think we've gone to a point where where're aware of different risks and alternatives, and it's not always such like a clear cut decision. It's something that you need to weigh out and make a decision on. So I don't want anyone listening to us to think like you and I are totally against like medical intervention or anything.

No. Like medicine exists for a reason. It's like such a good thing, but just mentioning those few things. I think it's important to, to have a critical mind and not just go with the flow and go with whatever's popular because as we've seen, I mean, if you've studied history, you, you know that, uh, often what was popular was very, very bad.

Like not good. For, for anyone and ended up bringing about a ton of ruin and disaster. Whether you look at ancient Rome or I don't know, different civilizations throughout, you know, the history of the world, you can see how you really needed to be countercultural. And that's not easy at times on the flip side, what would you say that you don't wanna repeat?

So some of the bad things that you observed about parenting that, uh, that you definitely don't wanna do in your own parenting dismissiveness, I think was a big one. Like I just remember, and to be fair, I'm a pretty sensitive person and was probably, you know, I, I do like have a tendency of overreacting sometimes or being dramatic and I'm sure as a kid that was even more the case.

But I do remember a lot of times when I, you know, turned to one of my parents cuz I was heard or upset or. Angry, you know, there was a lot of either like you need to just deal with it or just a lack of empathy, I guess. And I think it's not, it wasn't malicious, obviously. I think it's just that they're different people and that it was just not understanding where I was coming from.

And I've found, I have seen myself fall into this, um, as an adult being impatient with other people when they're suffering, because I'm like, no, that's not a big deal. Or like you're X, Y, Z, instead of being receptive and empathizing with the other person. Cause regardless of whether, you know, it's merited or not what the person is asking for, like there's a bid there, which is for attention, for empathy, for love.

And I don't think denying them of that, you know, is ever the right, the right thing to do. And that doesn't mean. Not saying something that's not true or like coddling, but I do think there is a moment of, you know, you have to be there for them emotionally. And I think that that was something that my parents kind of had a hard time with just because of personality differences.

Totally. And then the other thing is, you know, our faith, we did go to church and, you know, I think my mom was pretty active, but I wish I had seen my dad take more of an active role in our prayer life and to kind of pray with us as a family. I think would've been really good. And, um, would've kind of instilled those values earlier on, in a deeper way.

So that's something that I wish I had seen my parents do was like pray together or, you know, just because my, my faith is a big part of my life and I, I wish it had. I had seen that modeled earlier on mm-hmm so that's kind of something that I'm hoping my kids will, will have the opportunity to see. Yeah, no, that's really insightful.

And I think it's helpful to, you know, identify those things and just be conscious of it and make a plan to do the opposite. And a lot of the things you said resonate with me, like my dad, especially was pretty emotionally distant and, uh, I think a big part of the reason for that was because he was just dealing with a lot of his own hurt and brokenness in life, not to make an excuse for it, but just to kind of understand it a little bit more.

And so I, I certainly can relate with that. I think, I dunno if this is helpful for people, but I think our parents' generation, uh, typically I think most, most of our parents' generation, maybe people listening, um, don't have like the parents in that same generation, but it's good to know that a lot of them were raised by like the world war II.

Generation like some of them, you know, great depression generation and man, they, those people just had to be very tough. It was very, very hard times. And so I think they, in a way maybe were better at the hard virtues and were maybe better at the soft virtues, like empathy, like you mentioned. And so, uh, I think it's good to keep that in mind.

Um, you know, obviously we wanna have both the, the hard virtues and the soft virtues and, uh, and by hard virtues, I mean, things like courage and prudence, like making good judgements and things like that. I, yeah, there's definitely it wasn't perfect, but they kind of just had that. Toughness because of what they've been through.

Like my grandfather, he fought in world war II for Italy under mu. And so, you know, he fought alongside the Nazis at one point and then the Nazis turned on the Italians and they took him all prisoners. And so like, I can't imagine being through that experience. And so, yeah. Was he a little bit rougher, rough around the edges?

He was, but he was like a very loving man at the same time, but it just makes sense, given what he's been through that he's maybe a little bit callous and again, not such a bad thing, but I think there is a balance there. And I, I think that's where we're seeing a lot more. Now we have a better understanding of parenting and people understand like the value of empathy.

I know Bernie brown talks about it all the time. And so I think it is really valuable, but some other things just from that I observed from my parents too, is my, my dad saw his role as basically just the provider. It's like, if I put food on the table, if I make money, keep the roof over the head. Like, that's my job.

I'm done check. And, you know, there's so much more to parenting than that, but that was one thing that I don't wanna repeat at all. You know, I wanna be present in my kids' lives and make sure that I'm just connecting with them on a, on a deep level. Another thing too, that I saw from my dad is that there was so much brokenness that, uh, he had still to deal with that it was such a distraction for him.

And so, uh, yeah, I wanna, that's partly why I've been, you know, so motivated to just work on myself and heal and yeah. Just continue to grow because I think, uh, that's just so important that has such a good foundation to being able to love and to look beyond your own pain. And, uh, like, like you said, I, I really wish that my dad would've been, uh, more involved in like our faith life and talking about important things.

Like we, even to this day, like I love my dad to death, but. Even to this day, like a lot of our conversations, aren't very deep. It's just, they're more surface level. They talk like he is good at what he does at work. So a lot of our conversations are about work and he finds, you know, a lot of value in that.

Um, as a, you know, provider or at least someone who's being productive. And so I definitely wanna make sure that I'm having those deep conversations. I think it's really important. And then just a couple other things from my dad, I saw, you know, his anger. I think men deal with this a lot, but women do too.

Just anger get the best of us. And, um, that's something that I'm, you know, of course working on myself is just, it's okay to feel anger. It's good to feel anger, but it's important that we keep it in check. And, um, another thing too, just saw how my parents, um, especially my dad. Kind of looked up to people who had a lot of things, uh, not that it's wrong to have money and to, you know, be successful at such a good thing in a lot of ways, but it just depends on how you use it.

And, um, he, I know kind of admired people like that. So basically he had this materialistic worldview where he thought, you know, the more things you have, the more money you have, the better that life will be the happier that you'll be. And I think our generation sees that that's just a really empty promise that doesn't work.

And so that's something I wanna make sure that, um, you know, I don't pass on my kids either. So lots there. Um, on my mom's side, I would say I'm just my example from her. We've had this debate recently, but, uh, I've literally talked to my mom about this, uh, where, you know, what do you put first, your kids or your spouse.

And she put her kids first. And I have no doubt that that played a role in the breakdown of the marriage. You know, I'm not plays in blame in her, but I'm just saying that that certainly had some sort of a role in it. And, uh, she still believes that that was the right call. And obviously there's a balance there.

You can't like completely neglect your kids to put your marriage first, but I know you and I both believe that, you know, the marriage first and, and that's actually really good for the kids. If you. Keep that as the priority, I've also seen her just tendency to control. And I, I think that comes from a place of being hurt, you know, going through a lot and even in her own life.

And I remember growing up, Brenda, I, yeah, she would like ask us to do certain things and, and I've had these conversations with her. So I'm not like gossiping about her. You know, she would tell us to do certain things and then maybe like spell out in, in like very detailed instructions, like how to do every piece of it, or, you know, even like take over once we started doing something and it just basically underneath, it was just this desire for control and I hated it.

I hated it. And, uh, I think we all struggle with control, especially those of us who've been through something traumatic. It was something where I remember joking with her once she was like, uh, I had recently started driving and I, I had been driving, I think for like a year or two, so that wasn't like super recent.

And, um, she was like asking me to, uh, go get gas at this particular gas station. And she was like, going through all this detail, like how to get there and all sorts of things. I'm like, mom, do you wanna just come like pump the gas for me as well? and so I, you know, I, we we've, we've tried over the years, like be like, mom, like you, you raised good kids.

Like we're capable of doing things, but I think that was always a struggle for her. Just that control. Yeah. And then just other things too, probably could keep going. Just the, uh, slow decision making. And I don't know if this is something that is a trend in people come from broken families, but I know, uh, my family is not very good at making quick decisions.

it like takes a long time and that's something I've tried to like work against like analysis paralysis, where I I've seen my mom not wanna make decisions because she's afraid of making the wrong choice, the wrong call. And that just, that, that impacts you as a kid that impacts you, uh, through life, especially if that's like what you're taught to like very, very carefully weigh every little decision, um, even when they don't really deserve that much time and attention.

So that, that was certainly something that, that I don't wanna repeat then lastly, I would say, uh, just how, you know, I observed things in my parents' marriage, uh, not exactly a parenting item, but it certainly affected us kids how they handled conflict. How, you know, they would argue, and it wasn't always like this, but a lot of times, uh, the majority of times there was an argument, it would get heated, it would get loud.

And then one, or both parents would just like go their separate ways and we never saw any sort of resolution. And so one of the things I learned from one of my mentors, who's a teacher at my college at FCAN university. Um, he was just explaining the importance of, if you have conflict in front of your kids, make sure you, you resolve it in front of your kids.

It's really, really, really, really, really important to do that. And we just didn't see that growing up. So say all that again, not to demonize my parents, but to say, okay, these were the shortcomings. These are things that I saw that I didn't like. And I wanna do them differently in, in my own parent. I wanna switch gears and talk about that, uh, episode that we mentioned.

So Adam Young has, uh, is a counselor out here in Colorado. He has the podcast called, uh, the place we find ourselves. Awesome, awesome podcast. I love it. I recommend it. And in episode two of that podcast, he, uh, teaches the six core needs. Relational needs that kids, uh, need their parents to fill. And the episode is titled why you are family of origin impacts your life more than anything else, profound and, and so true.

And so I, I wanna dive into that. We're just gonna talk about some of the things he talks about in the episode and, and just give some, uh, yeah. Commentary insight into what we experienced growing up and what we wanna do moving forward, uh, with our own kids. And when, when we talk about this episode, it's good to keep in mind that this stuff applies not just to like little infants and babies and like young children, but as you grow up, you know, as a child, as a teenager, even into your, you know, young adult years, like this stuff applies as well.

So you can kind of think of that as we kind of go through these things. But one of the things he starts in this in episode two of his podcast, he says that we all kind of have a hard time. Even if you come from a good family, we all have a hard time taking an honest look at how our parents treated us.

And he says that that's kind of instructive that that's, um, an interesting thing to, to keep in mind. And what he says though, is. A child needs their parents to get it right about 50% of the time, which I think, again, it's very consulting. It's good that you don't need to be perfect, but, but that's really the sign of like a good enough parent.

And so he lays out in this episode that the six needs that, uh, children have that, that they need their parents to fill. And the first thing he talks about is attunement, attunement. It's kind of this odd word. And, uh, what it basically means is your parent's ability to, um, read your emotional state. Okay.

Your ability to, to read your emotional state, like what's going on inside of you inside your heart, inside your mind, inside your body, your thoughts, your feelings. It doesn't mean you're a mind reader, but, um, just having an awareness and, uh, the core of attunement he says is not reading right? Every single time, not looking at your child and immediately knowing what they're experiencing, what they're feeling, what they're thinking and knowing like what they need, but really just recognizing when your child is feeling maybe unheard or, or unseen, and then pressing in to try to understand what's happening with the child.

And he says that it's in this process of attunement or I'm sorry of misattunement. And then reattunement that you come to feel safe with your parents as a child, that, that you come to feel that you can trust them, that they're there for you. And he says, one of the huge barriers to this, I'll just read this quote.

He said, A parent that is distracted by their own needs. Their own wants their own emotions, their own personal pain can't be attuned to their child's needs. And that goes right along with some of the things that Miranda. And I said before, and so. It makes sense. Miranda, you know, given the, what he said here that, um, divorce is so harmful to children.

And because in most cases, parents are kind of, you know, going to war with each other and they're just so focused on their own stuff, their own paying their own needs, that they tend to neglect the needs of. You know, their children and the people around them. So just reflecting on this in my own life, you know, I think my mom, uh, when we were kids did a really good job of being there for us of trying to do this whole attunement thing that he talks about.

But when the separation happened, uh, she would just so overwhelmed. She had to now fill her role as a mother, and then also fill the dad role of providing and, and doing all that at, you know, at that time in my family, at least. And so it just was so consuming for her that she wasn't able to be there for us to recognize like what was going on inside of us.

Cause a lot of us were, we were really hurting and when we ended up acting on in all sorts of ways, but she just was overwhelmed. Couldn't be there for us. Like one of the things for me I know was I was just hanging around with like really bad friends, like friends who weren't good for me. And she didn't really recognize.

Yeah, I don't blame her for it. I, I do wish, you know, something was done sooner, but that, that was one thing. And then for my dad, when it came to attunement, I just recognized that, um, this is something he really struggled with. Like I mentioned before, he was just very, I think, overwhelmed with a lot of his own demons and brokenness, and it was just hard for him to focus on us.

And I don't wanna say he did this horribly cuz I'm sure, you know, he did it, um, better than maybe I remember, but um, I know this was a particular, uh, struggle for him that this whole attunement thing, but what about you Miranda? Yeah, it is hard. And I think the divorce like D just throws everything for loop and you know, a caveat of this by saying that a like I'm not, I don't have a great memory of early childhood.

And so a lot of what I remember is after is like either during or after the divorce. So I think that, you know, whatever I have to say is unfortunately going to be a little skewed and especially because I think the negative sometimes. Ends up sticking a lot more than the positive. Totally. So, but yeah, I think similar to what you're saying, you know, mom was better at yeah.

Knowing what I was feeling, what I was thinking, I think, yeah, with the separation, she also was just kind of really caught up in, in what she was going through. And I think that at that point there was, I guess, a misattunement and I think that it led to a lot of issues and I definitely similar to what you, your experience was, you know, kind of started going down paths that I wish I hadn't, and that I wish a parent had been there to, to say, you know, this isn't good, this isn't healthy.

Mm-hmm but yeah, I do think mom was a little bit more aware. She was more in tune to what was going on with me on a daily basis. Dad, He's just more oblivious in general, you know, but on top of that, the fact that we didn't live together after separation, like exacerbated that so much more. So he was a lot more oblivious except on occasions when I was like, it was extremely vocal.

So, but that being said, I'm not someone who's, you know, super great at hiding my emotions anyway. So I do think they probably both picked up on more than I'm giving them credit for. But I do think that the divorce led to a break in attunement, which I think is just kind of almost inevitable, you know?

Yeah. And I think it's a, at the core of why there's so many problems with it and. That makes a ton of sense. And the, the second thing that Adam Young says is, um, that the, uh, the next need, the second need is, uh, responsiveness. We have, we need our parents to basically take action based on what they see.

And, and that's what responsiveness is, is just taking action. As a result of the attunement of, of like recognizing the emotional state of, of the child and every child, he says needs their parent to be responsive when that child feels distressed or mad or sad or afraid anything. And the, the parent in that case needs to offer comfort care kindness.

Um, and hopefully, you know, if there was a break in the relationship they wanna bring reconnection. And one of the things he says in the episode, which was kind of striking for me, he said, uh, a lot of us believe that our parents weren't attuned to us. They didn't even recognize what we were thinking and feeling because if they did, then that meant that they didn't care enough to do anything about it.

And, and that's hard. It's hard to swallow if, if that was the case. And so looking back kind of on my own childhood, um, my mom was definitely good kind of again, at being responsive, but again, the divorce pulled her away from her ability to do that. And she just had to deal with her own pain and, and, um, you know, her own issues.

And I think my dad struggled with this for, for a long time. And like I mentioned with my mom, the divorce made it worse as well. Um, so I'm curious on the responsiveness need. Um, how did you experience this? Yeah, I, I definitely think that that was a, that was a hard one. I think mom, because, you know, probably because of what she was going through, she was kind of like emotionally tapped out.

So I think sometimes, you know, she was attuned, she did see my frustration or anger or, or hurt or whatever. but her response was often kind of dismissive. I think she just going through something like that, like you just kind of lose the capacity to really be open to another person, another person suffering mm-hmm , um, especially when it seemed maybe trivial, you know, compared to what you're going through.

So I think, you know, that was hard. And then I think dad, he wasn't dismissive, uh, in the same sense. Like he wa he didn't get angry or kind of, he didn't say like, oh, you just need to, you know, get over it kind of thing. I, and I, and I think this is just him not knowing how to, how to respond, but a lot of times he would laugh.

Like he would, yeah. Like that was his gut response was just to make light of it. And it, again, like it wasn't malicious, it wasn't him being mean or anything like that. It was just, I think that was just like, he didn't understand. And so. That his response was, was to find humor in it, but it's unfortunate.

But again, it wasn't like a malicious thing, but I do think it was kind of hurtful. And so that's something else that, you know, I have to take into account. Like even if your three year old is crying because you know, they can't find their Teddy wear and you're like, you know, this is not a big deal. You know, it is a big deal to them and you have to be able to step into their shoes as hard as that can be sometimes and try to respond.

Appropriately like Adam Young talks about. Yeah. And then that brings us to the next need, which he says you needed your parents to engage. So the next need is engagement. And this is a little bit different than responsiveness. Responsiveness is basically their, uh, reaction or response to the attunement.

Engagement's a little bit more proactive. It's beyond a reaction beyond a response, at least based on my understanding of it. Uh, it's really, yeah. This proactive pursuit, this intention to, to genuinely know you as a child, deeply on a heart level. And in that episode, he quotes, uh, a neuroscientist Kirk Thompson, uh, who said each one of us comes into this world, looking for someone, looking for us.

It's profound. And, uh, he, Adam goes on to say that the results, uh, of a lack of engagement is feeling abandoned as abandonment. And he says the, you know, that the core of abandonment is not physical abandonment, but rather, uh, a lack of attunement, a lack of responsiveness and a lack of engagement from your parents.

And again, he quotes, uh, Kirk Thompson, who, who said, we can grow up in homes in which the food finds the table. The money finds the college funds and the family even finds the church each Sunday. But somehow our hearts remain undiscovered by the two people. We most need to know us, our parents. So again, looking at this, um, there, there's just a huge difference in both of my parents before the divorce and after the divorce, um, especially with my mom just being, you know, emotionally tapped out, like you said, and, uh, with my dad, I.

Always admired him. Uh, especially growing up, he was just like my hero and I always wanted more from him. I always wanted, you know, more approval. I wanted more attention, more time from him. I couldn't necessarily put my finger in it when I was a kid, but looking back and, uh, I remember he coached my older brother, Anthony in, uh, baseball.

So he was his baseball coach when he was like in middle school. And that was like a year or two away for me. When he could like coach me and remember me just being so excited, like my, I was so excited. I was just thrilled. We loved baseball growing up, played for years and yeah, I just could not wait for my dad to be my coach.

And then my parents separated and that never happened. And that was just devastating for me. It was really hard to just kind of miss out in that whole experience. And I know everyone listening I'm sure has experiences like that as well, that were just kind of taken from you, Rob from you. And so, yeah, I really did want my dad, especially to engage with me and, and that certainly was a whole that yeah, just wasn't filled, unfortunately.

Yeah, that is really hard. I, I think my, you know, my dad was always good, you know, even after the separation, he, he would call pretty much every day and he always, you know, asked me about my day and it was always very surface level. And I think that, you know, things with my dad have always been surface level for.

Always but most of the time, but he did, you know, he has pursued me in the sense that, you know, a lot of people don't hear from, from their parents every week, even mm-hmm , you know? And so he, he has been really consistent about that. I do remember even after the divorce, confiding and dad about things that were going on at school and, you know, drama and all that stuff, he was very receptive and, you know, definitely emphasized, you know, you can always talk to me about this kind of thing.

And unfortunately, I think as I got older, I just got more guarded around him. So I kind of, I think that was lost to a degree. And I think then he just didn't know how to, how to pursue, but he has always been really good about checking in and my mom, you know, she. , she was always very encouraging and I, I played violin for a long time and she was always very like supportive and encouraging of that and of my writing.

Um, so I definitely felt like seen and yeah, just that she really cared about, about me because of, of how much she encouraged me with those things that she knew I cared about. So I think that that was really good. I think, you know, on an emotional level, that's probably where, you know, there was a lack from both of them.

And again, I think part of it was just like what you were saying before of their generation and how they were raised. Um, and then I think part of it too, was. As we've been saying, like the divorce and what they've been going through and yeah. Being, being emotionally tapped out. So, so I do think there was good there.

Um, and I think that there was, you know, some struggles as well. Sure. No, that makes sense. Yeah. The next need is you needed your parents to regulate your affect and affect is again, kind of this funny word, but basically affect means your internal, emotional state. That felt sense of what's happening inside of you.

And that's what Adam Young explains that. And he says that there's kind of a range of feelings that we experience everything from, you know, numb and shut down to terrified and panicked kind of the heightened side of the spectrum. And so when you're stressed out, he says your affect is dysregulated.

That's how psychologists talk about it. And as children, we had very little ability to regulate our. To kind of recognize what was happening inside of us and do something about it. And infants, especially have zero ability to do that. They're completely reliant on their mother on their father. And so it's so important when we were children that if, um, we were hungry and tired or afraid that we had our parents there to soothe us, to comfort us, he says, and you know, even if we were getting numb or kind shut down, we needed someone there to stimulate us to prevent us from kind of going numb.

And yeah, he says, Adam Young says that to be effective at regulating your affect a parent needs to do basically all of the prior three things that we talked about, uh, attunement, responsiveness, and engagement. And by watching them do that for us, especially as young children, we learn to do it for ourselves.

And so, um, if that didn't happen, if your affect was not regulated, uh, then you would've been forced to do it yourself. If your parent didn't do it for you. And like I mentioned, If you're young, especially, uh, you don't have the ability to do that, or maybe you're going through something traumatic where there's a lot of overwhelming emotions.

You really need someone to walk through you with that who has more capacity to deal with those difficult things in your life. And if that didn't happen, then it leaves a lot of damage. And again, go into my own story. I, I felt this so much after the separation emotionally inside edge, it was just a mess and I didn't know how to deal with it like Miranda.

I'm sure you can relate. I was angry. I was depressed. I was anxious and I just found no comfort or relief in my parents, to be honest. And again, they were just so consumed, uh, with what was going on in their own lives that I ended up looking for comfort elsewhere, just trying to regulate, you know, my own affect, just deal with my own emotions by, you know, looking up porn.

By, you know, kind of diving into sports and just kind of escaping into, you know, just different things in my life. And so definitely, definitely had struggles there. And I think in some ways I still do, I'm made a lot of progress with this, but, um, it is, it's such a real need, isn't it? Yeah, no, it totally is.

And I think with, with my mom, a lot of times when I was angry and I expressed that, um, which I think she saw a lot more of that than my dad did after the separation. She, her response was to also get angry and I get it, you know, I think I, you know, I can kind of understand why that would be her response.

And I probably said some hurtful things. I mean, not probably, I, I, I think I do remember saying things that were, that were mean or hurtful, but like you said, you need someone when you're young to kind of help you learn how to. Manage your anger. And I think for me, you know, the response I got was like, I don't want this, you know, I don't wanna see this.

This is, this is wrong. I think dad was more when, you know, the few times that I did express strong emotions around him, he was more common wanting to help. Um, but I think the challenge has been feeling comfortable expressing those around him. And then there have been, like I said, a few times where he, he just didn't didn't respond well, you know, kind of made light of it.

And I think that kind of has stopped me from continuing to, yeah. To be open with open and honest with him. So I, from that, I think I kind of learned to suppress, especially when I was just hurting and to hide what I was feeling or at the very least not to talk about it. And I've seen that. Come to fruition a lot in my marriage.

And before that, when we, my husband and I were dating, just not wanting to talk about what I was feeling and that being really frustrating for him. He can tell something's wrong. He can tell, tell I'm upset, but I, I feel like I can't open up to him about it. Wow. That's profound. So yeah, you basically just learn that response to like regulate your affect and that carried into your own marriage and, and it makes so much sense.

And that brings us to the next need. Adam Young says that you needed your parents to be strong enough to handle. Negative emotions. And so he asked the question, you know, how did your parents react to your negative emotions? Like anger, sadness, fear, like, what did they do? And Miranda, you just talked about that.

He says that, you know, we needed them to like, we needed to be free. To express those negative emotions as children, knowing that we would be responded to in a positive way. And, and he says that you needed to know your emotions were accepted and allowed. And even to the point where you feel free to say, like I hit you or you're mean, or something kind of shocking and extreme without getting scolded or shamed or told that.

Know that wasn't appropriate. And this is kind of shocking to hear. I think a lot of parents struggle with this one because especially parents who wanna raise, I think this is almost everyone. Like you wanna raise good kids and having hearing them say these strong things, because they feel strongly about something can be really hard.

But I experienced that as well in my own family where, when I felt something strongly, I, especially on my dad's side, it was kind of the opposite with my dad. He would react kind of with the, a stronger emotion. Like if I felt angry, he would get even angrier. And so then I learned also to suppress and with my mom too, there was just kind of this sense that, okay, anger is bad because we've, you know, experienced, uh, in different ways.

People getting really angry and it not having a good, um, ending and. One of the things Adam Young said is that, uh, your child should feel free to express rage at you. So this kind of goes back to what you said before Miranda with like feeling wrath yet your, your child should feel free to express that rage at you.

And, um, one of the problems that he points at when it comes to this need, um, he says that perhaps your family was too fragile to bear the weight of your unedited soul. And, and this one really, really struck me well. And I think one of the things I saw, especially in my dad was, um, yeah, because he struggled with his own anger.

I tended to follow suit and then feel that, oh, I can't express anger to him because that would just evoke a greater anger. That would just not end well, well, I mean, I did, yeah. I kind of addressed that before, but I did, I was shocked when he kind of talked about, you know, the, the two stories of his little kids of how they express.

Their anger towards him. And, um, it's hard to imagine. Like I do think that that's heartbreaking, you know, as a parent, like, or, or it's just infuriating, you know, I'm glad he said that because I don't think, I would've thought that was the appropriate response. Cuz my thought would've been, you know, you need to be respectful.

You need to just treat your parents, you know, with respect. And so, and not to say that they shouldn't, but you know, he is saying, you know, we tell, we need to allow room. We need to allow them the space to experience breath, and then to teach them how to, how to handle it. But it was kind of, it did catch me off guard when, when he talked about, you know, like it's okay for them to.

To express that and it's okay for them to almost like, let it out, you know, on you, um, whatever they're experiencing and it's not something to me, it didn't seem something that was very intuitive and maybe that's just cuz of my own experience, but I was definitely, yeah, just kind of taken aback a little bit me as well.

Yeah. And, um, Yeah. Just, I think like you were saying just the results. If we don't feel that freedom is suppression and that's always gonna come out in some other way. And so I think it's, it's better to, like you said, to be there with your kids in those difficult emotions and teach them how to handle them and what to do, what action to take as a result of what they feel as opposed to just like shoving it away.

And then they're just gonna, like, we've been saying, they're gonna have to deal with it on their own. And, and that brings us to the last point, which is you needed your parents to, um, yeah. Have a willingness to repair when there was a disconnect when there was disconnection, uh, especially when they hurt you.

He says, and, and, uh, Adam Young says, this is a direct quote. He said, when your parents hurt you, did they own and rectify, rectify the harm they did. A healthy, trusting attachment is not built on the absence of failure. All parents fail many, many times a healthy relationship is not built on the absence of failure, but on the willingness of the parent to own and rectify the failures.

When they do occur. And so he just, again, emphasizes that no parent gets it right. A hundred percent of the time, even the best parents, like you pointed out before Miranda. And he says, that's, that's no big deal. What really matters is that when there is a break in their relationship, when there is an issue, a misattunement, uh, that there is reattunement that we connect again, that there's re-engagement that things are made, right?

There's um, an apology, there's a conversation, something to reconnect, to bring comfort into the relationship. And, uh, growing up, my mom was pretty good at this actually at, at the reconnecting, she was, you know, willing to apologize, even if at times it was hard, uh, with my dad, this was a struggle. And I think a lot of men struggle with this because we tend to have these big egos.

I, you know, was thinking and preparing for this show. I was like trying to remember a time where he apologized for something, especially like that was bigger. And I, I struggled with that. And so I, I think he, you know, had a hard time admitting when he was at fault. And again, I think a lot of parents have this issue, especially fathers, maybe feeling like we can't show weakness or we're expected to get everything right.

And so we don't admit when we're wrong. And that was really damaging and inhibited caused us not to have that reconnection because there was just this whole line of things that were never addressed, that we were just like carrying around with us. So it's certainly it's this maybe is the most important of them all to, um, repair when there is, uh, that disconnect.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think for me, it was a little bit flipped. I mean, I had a lot more conflict with mom because. You know, I was with her more. Um, and she, she just wouldn't apologize. Um, we always had to be the ones to seek her out after a conflict. And I think that that's something that led me and my siblings to be extremely conflict diverse, cuz we were afraid of her anger and we were afraid of not, you know, getting the love back, you know?

And so yeah, I think that was hard. And then with dad, it was just, we, we really rarely fought because again, like I just, I didn't feel that closeness with him. So it was more like if it was fighting, it was more like I'm annoyed, you know? So it wasn't really a true fight that that required like a, an apology or something like that.

And yeah, so I, I don't, I don't think I really had an experience. I think the one time, you know, where. I felt like an apology was owed was, you know, when he, we had a conversation about the fact that he left, you know, left the family, but also left the country like right after the divorce and how that really affected me.

And, you know, for him, he couldn't see where he had done wrong. He just said, you know, I did what I had to do and it wasn't about you, you know, but I think I really needed a tea here, you know, I'm sorry that you felt abandoned. And I think it's just like a lack of understanding. So I do think that that repairing disconnect was a hard one for us.

Absolutely. So just to summarize everything, uh, the first need is attunement next responsiveness, third engagement. Fourth, uh, regulate your affect fifth strong enough to handle negative emotions and then six, uh, your parents' willingness to repair when there was disconnection. And so a lot to talk about here, but yeah.

How do we do this right. Miranda? What, what are we gonna do with our own kids in the future? Uh, a few thoughts on my end. Like some things I wanna do I think, to, to do this stuff right. To fill those six needs the right way, um, is just being really intentional about it. Just focusing on it, having that desire and keeping that front of mind.

Uh, I think also curiosity is needed, especially when it comes to atunement like paying attention to, you know, just different shifts and moods or things that are happening with your children and reading their faces and asking good questions and then digging deeper when something is kind of unclear.

You're not quite sure what's going on. And then I think another thing too is just prioritizing time with your children and just. Being a good parent and just understanding that, yeah, you can go work for 80 hours a week and make a ton of money, but you're gonna leave your children bankrupt, emotionally, if you are not there for them, you're not emotionally engaging with them.

So I think one of the things I think so hard for all of us, but especially for parents, is just letting go of the less important things because being a parent, uh, so I'm told I'm not one yet. Well, I am one now, but I don't have our baby here. It it's so important to make sure that we're spending lots of time, uh, with, with our kids.

And so those are a few things. I think a growth mindset's really important as well. Just understanding that we can get better. We can change, we can grow. We're not stuck. And, uh, and then, like we mentioned at a few points, like healing our own brokenness so that we are not just passing that on to our kids are so consumed by it that we're damaging them or neglecting them.

And, uh, you know, having a plan too, with our kids, like I've heard some parents do individual date nights with their kids. Uh, we had, uh, Justin bad on this show who, uh, you know, runs daddy Saturday. So he spends like every Saturday with his kids, he spent over, I think it's 14,000 hours with his kids, which was just amazing, you know, when it comes to the negative emotions thing, I think it's so important to like tell your kids, this is one of the things I wanna really clearly communicate to my kids is that it's okay to have those negative emotions to feel them.

They're actually, they're there for a reason and we need to teach them that and teach them, uh, how to handle those well, and, and don't shame them when they feel them. There's nothing wrong with them. And then of course, you know, modeling, uh, in your marriage, like how to do all these things right between you and your spouse, like having that attunement with your spouse.

Obviously it's not the same as like a parent-child relationship, but just recognizing things. Healing the relationship, if something goes wrong and along with that is having the, uh, humility to admit when you're wrong and to make that relationship. Right. And, um, yeah, just to expect there to be breaks in the relationship, but then always be working toward it.

So, yeah, just in closing Miranda, what were some final thoughts that you would give to everyone, um, on how to do this? Right. And how you wanna do that right. In your own parenting. Yeah. I mean, I definitely think that everything you said is very true and I think it'll be very helpful. Um, I, I had present moment awareness kind of like what you said about paying attention.

Um, just trying to, to yeah. Be present, um, which I think can be hard, cuz like you said, we get distracted by a whole lot of things, but I think trying as much as possible to, to just be in the moment with your kids. I also think self care is important. Like I, I do. I do think it, you know, obviously you have to put your, your kids first, you know, they, they can't take, especially when they're really young, like they can't take care of themselves.

So you have to, you have to make sure that their needs are being met. But I do think that it's not an excuse to like stop taking care of yourself spiritually, physically, emotionally, you know? So if you, if there's some wounds you need to work on like, make time for therapy or, or journaling or, or something like that.

If, if you are feeling, you know, really tired, like, okay, like how can you get more sleep? Like how, you know, how can you make sure that you're, you're being the best parent that you can be? And a lot of that is just making sure that you are taken care of, like you're, you're taking care of yourself. You know, if, if you like setting aside time for prayer, just time to, you know, better yourself as a person.

I think that's really important. And. Yeah. If you have wounds, like you said, like struggles, which we all do taking the time to, to work through those. And if you're not, if you don't know where to start, if you're overwhelmed, like asking for help. Um, I think empathizing is really important, um, learning that's skill, which it can be learned, you know, if, if we're not there yet, that's okay.

But, um, more and more trying to step into the experience of other people and especially of our kids. I think, you know, trying not to take things personally, especially when your kids having a bad day, when there is a temper tantrum, when, you know, I think it sometimes does feel really personal mm-hmm . And so it's like, okay, like this isn't necessarily about me, you know, something's going on in their world.

That's causing them to be unhappy and trying to help them through that instead of getting defensive or upset because. You feel like they're making your life more difficult, having that space between the reaction and the response? I think those are, those are some things. And just remembering, like you have to set the example for how to handle emotion.

So like if you fly off the handle, when things don't go well, that's very likely that your kids are gonna learn to do that too. I think there is gonna be conflict. There is going to be hurt. And, you know, kind of like we, we were talking about with reconciliation, just always making sure that the kid knows that they're loved, you know, even when you're upset, even when you're disappointed, you know, I love you.

Even if it's, it's kind of tense right now, I love you. And that, you know, having the humility to, to, to apologize when, when you do mess up, because we all do and we all will. Yeah. I think those are some things. That could help with these six things that Adam Young talks about. So good Miranda, thanks for your insight.

Thanks for your time. I hope this has been helpful to all of you listening and definitely recommend listening to episode two of the place we find ourselves. If you wanna reflect on this more about how you, um, you know, have these needs filled, or maybe not filled by your parents growing up and what you can do in the future, uh, when it comes time for you to become a parent.

So Miranda, thank you so much for your time. Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me.

Thanks so much for listening. Definitely a long episode, but I hope it was valuable for you. My question for you to reflect on is what lessons did you learn from your parents that you wanna repeat with your own kids one day? And which ones do you not wanna repeat? Think about that. Give us some thought, write them down.

Talk to your husband or wife about 'em. If you're married or if you're engaged or dating someone, talk to your significant other. It's really, really good to have these conversations now so that we can bring about those changes that we wanna enact with our own kids. If ReSTOR has helped you in any way, we'd love to hear about it, whether this podcast has been helpful or maybe a blog article, or really anything that we do, if it's been helpful for you, we wanna hear about it.

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And so if you wanna send your testimony of how restored has helped you just go to restored ministry.com/testimony, again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/testimony. Then just answer the questions in that form about how restored has helped you. We'd really appreciate it by the way, this can be completely anonymous.

We don't have to put your name to it. It's totally your choice. So please share how restored has helped you today. A restored ministry. Dot com slash testimony. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 46. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful, please subscribe and share this podcast with someone you know, who really needs it.

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Restored creates content that gives teens and young adults the tools and advice they need to cope and heal after the trauma of their parents’ divorce or separation, so they can feel whole again.

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