#085: How to Build a Beautiful Marriage Despite Your Struggles as a Daughter of Divorce | Leila Miller

If you’re a woman with divorced or separated parents, have you struggled a lot in your relationships? If you’re married, has marriage felt extra difficult for you? If so, you’re not alone. That’s actually common as our guest today shares.

In this episode, we discuss the struggles that daughters of divorce face in marriage that daughters of intact families typically never have to deal with and more: 

• How you’re not doomed to repeat your parents’ mistakes 

• Stories of marriages in crisis that turned things around

• Tips for women from broken families on building a good and beautiful marriage

• Advice for any parents in really difficult marriages

• Women Made New, a new book on healing for women that features a chapter on marriage for daughters of divorce 

Buy Women Made New

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Get the Free Guide: 7 Tips to Build a Thriving & Divorce-Proof Marriage

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• Leila Miller

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• Books

  • Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones

  • Overcoming Spiritual Discouragement

• LeeAnne Abel Episodes

  • Episode 5: 9 Common Struggles of Adult Children of Divorce - Part 1

  • Episode 6: 9 Common Struggles of Adult Children of Divorce - Part 2

  • Episode 7: 9 Common Struggles of Adult Children of Divorce - Part 3

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you're a woman whose parents are divorced, have you struggled a lot in your relationships? If your married has marriage felt extra difficult for you? If so, you're actually not alone. That's a really common struggle as my guest today shares, and in this episode we talk about the struggles. That Daughters of Divorce facing Marriage that daughters of Intact families typically never have to deal with.

We also discuss how you're not doomed to repeat your parents' mistakes. My guest shares stories of marriages in crisis that turn things around completely. We offer tips for women from broken families in building a good and beautiful marriage that men can benefit from too. We share practical tips on how to build a virtue such as the four parts of any habit.

And parents, my guest offers advice for any of you who find yourself in a really difficult marriage. And finally, you hear about Women Made New, a new book on Healing for Women that features a chapter on Marriage for Daughters of divorce. This is a really awesome and really helpful conversation, so keep listening.

Welcome to the Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents'. Divorce, separation, or broken marriage so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 85. My guest today is Layla Miller. Layla is a Catholic writer and author whose passion is church teaching on marriage, family, human sexuality, and while pretty much all moral issues, she also loves to discuss culture, society, and politics, and generally from a conservative perspective.

She has published four books. Primal lost the now adult children of divorce speak raising Chase Catholic men. The practical advice mom to Mom made this way. How to prepare kids to face today's tough moral issues. Co-authored with Trent Horn of Catholic Answers and her latest Impossible Marriages redeemed.

They didn't end the story in the middle Lila's first blog, the Little Catholic Bubble was a hub of good conversation and reason debates, and though it's been retired after eight years, it remains online as an. Lela and her husband have 32 years live in Phoenix, where they are still raising the youngest three of their eight children, two girls and six boys, ages 31 to 12.

They currently have 12 born grandchildren and two more in utero and still can't believe what's happened to them these past three decades. Considering how it all started, that Layla says that God is so very good and merci. So if you can't tell by now, there's obviously talk about God and faith in this conversation.

If you don't believe in God. I'm so glad that you're here. I challenge you to listen with an open mind. Even if you take the God parts out, you're still gonna benefit greatly from this conversation. So without waiting any longer, here's my conversation with Layla Miller.

Layla, welcome back to the show. It's been a little while and I'm really happy to have. Thank you Joe. I'm always glad to be here with you and, uh, try to help a demographic that's not really helped very often. So here we go. Yeah, there's such a need as we've talked again and again about, and I'm excited to talk about the new book and your chapter in the new book, and I think it's really gonna be a tool, something that's really helpful, uh, for people from broken families, especially women.

From Broken families because, um, well, we'll get into the exact topic. So I'd like you to kind of tee us up there. What is the book about and your chapter in particular? Sure. So a while back, Kristalina ever asked me if I would contribute a chapter to a book that she was compiling and the book was just released and it's called Women Made New.

It's an EWTN book and what she asked me was actually very intriguing because she's had me on her show a few times to talk about just the pitfalls of being a child of divorce and the different effects in their lives. Cuz she herself is a child of divorce and we've had really good conversations just like you and I have had.

But she, she gave me a topic that was so intriguing to me and she wanted to help women because this particular book, of course, is specifically for women. Although I do think that men could also. She wanted me to sort of compare and contrast what it is like for a child of divorce, a daughter of divorce, to approach marriage or to be in a marriage, versus someone like me who was a child of an intact family, approaching marriage, living through a marriage, you know, going through the years and I thought, wow, that's a.

That's an interesting exercise. And so with the help of our mutual friendly able, who is a child of divorce herself and a contributor to, um, my book, primal Loss, she helped quite a bit because she has done a lot of research in this herself, but I was able to, We kind of discussed those particular pitfalls that a daughter of divorce has that I, for example, never had going into a marriage.

So, and, and we never think about this, right? I, I don't know. I never thought about it. I don't even know if the daughters of divorce actually think about this consciously, but I know I never did. So I got married 32 years ago. I'm from an intact family. I approached the alter with really not really any anxiety at all.

I, I knew that there would. I knew it was a lifelong commitment. First of all, I knew there would be. Problems in marriage. There always are. I knew there would be fights. I knew there would be probably, you know, tragedies along the way. And so all the whole thing, good times and bad, basically the vow, I kind of understood that.

Yeah, that's, that's what we're getting into. Never occurred to me to be concerned about the permanence of the marriage. It just never occurred to me. So you kind of go in almost relaxed, you know, if, if, if you're marrying a good guy, it's not really, uh, an anxiety producing situation. Well, I guess that's not always the case with the daughter of divorce because they are coming into a marriage with so many different wounds, having watched their parents fail essentially at, at doing marriage, that they're going in with a bit of a handicap, if you wanna put it that way.

And so I kind of took a look at all of those different wounds or different ways that that daughter of divorce might approach marriage in a way. That needs to have a spotlight just so that she is aware, like, okay, this is not typical. This is because of the wound from my parents' divorce. Yeah. So we can, we can talk about some of that, but that's basically what she wanted me to do with this chapter.

Amazing, and I'm so excited to read it, start to finish. I've, I've read a little bit of it and I'm already blown away. I think it's, it's really fascinating, like you said, to kind of compare and contrast the different experiences because they are very different and that's a, I think just the key point we want people to walk away with again, I don't think.

As a culture, we look at divorce, we look at broken families, and we say that, well, it's not a big deal because it's so common. It's in fact normal. It's seen as normal, and we're kind of expected to be resilient as children and to move on through life in our careers, in our friendships, in our re uh, romantic relationships and marriages.

Kind of unscathed, but the facts do not bear that. The facts showed, like you said, that there's a lot of struggles, some very serious consequences and negative effects that you have to deal with if you come from a broken family, typically. And one of the researchers who talked about this, which we've touched on a little bit in the past, is, A woman by the name of Dr.

Judith Wallerstein. She was at the University of California Berkeley. She studied children's divorce for 25 years, and she said that one of the main takeaways from her research is that the biggest area of your life that's affected by your parents' divorce is your own marriage. And so we're gonna get into that further, but everything you said just rings so true and it aligns with the research.

That I've seen on this topic. And before I go any further, I just wanna give a little bit of a side note if you guys wanna listen to Leanne, uh, who Lela mentioned. She, uh, came on the show in episodes five, six and seven. We did a three part series on the nine common struggles of adult children of divorce.

It was actually based on Lela's book. Primal loss. So we kind of summarize, uh, the really the most common struggles of this relationships, marriage being one of them. And so if you wanna check those out again, that's episode five, six and seven. But isn't that fascinating how the research bears, uh, that as well that this is like such a struggle for people like us who come from divorced families.

It really is. And uh, and if you think about it really makes sense. Marriage is foundational. It's, it's actually a natural right. For a child to have a married mother and father. It's a God-given, right? And then when that foundation is shattered, that is the model. What is, they call it the School of Love.

You know, the the family. So when that model is blown to bits, we can expect that going forward into relationships, there are going to be huge problems, gaps in understanding, lack of tools, lack of knowledge, and then to go into a marriage, which is. Of course, by its nature, permanent and really want it to be permanent.

I mean, again, every, every daughter of divorce goes into a marriage wanting it to be permanent. But the tools aren't there. The tools aren't there. And, and so the, the first thing I just wanna say to everyone out there is this, is this feeling of isolation or anxiety or fear or lack of trust. These lack of tools, this, all these difficulties, this is completely normal.

There's this silence on this issue where every child of divorce, but really every daughter of divorce, every bride going into a marriage thinks that they must be crazy. You know, it's just, it's unique to, to her alone, and yet it is. Not, it is quite universal in fact, and that's actually relieving to a lot of people to understand that you feel like you're alone when you're having these feelings in your marriage and feeling like you're failing so badly.

And yet it is a very normal common experience for someone whose foundation was shattered to have to deal with these issues in her marriage. Mm, no, that, that's so helpful and one of the ways that I like to think about it. , we really lack a roadmap for love and marriage. We've seen a broken model of love and marriage, and so when it's our turn, we, we feel lost.

We feel unequipped, as you said, to build a good, beautiful, thriving marriage. Uh, because again, we didn't see it ourselves. And our parents example is ingrained into us. It's programmed into us on an subconscious level, like you said. And so what I've seen too is not only do we feel lost, but they actually tend to pick up their tendencies, their virtues, or their vices.

And so if that, you know, if there were more vices when it came to the relationship and you know, for example, not handling conflict well or just being disrespectful or again, like abandoning your family like that, that example is ingrained in us so that even on a subconscious level, we might act from that without even wanting it.

We might want a really beautiful love, a really beautiful. But because of the example we've seen, unless we're very intentional about overcoming that, and of course relying on God's grace as well, um, we can go down that same path, which is really scary. And it's a fear of everyone listening who comes from a broken family.

Absolutely. Right. And so there's almost this, like you said, it's, it's almost unconscious where you just. In the back of your mind are thinking, okay, when am I gonna have to leave? Or when is he going to abandon me? And, and it's kind of this running loop that can be in the back of your mind that you're not even necessarily aware of.

Although some people are, some people do actually. I've had daughters of divorce tell me they're squirreling away money in a, in a sock drawer. For the day that they're very saintly husband. Cuz a lot of times these guys are great, but they fear that there's just gonna be a time where it's just not gonna work out.

It's just, it's just not gonna work out. And, and if you, if what you have seen as a model is that conflict leads to permanent separation, well that's all, you know, that's what you've seen. And so you have this, I guess we could call it a defective witness. So there's this fear that things that are this, this is the part that just makes me so sad as someone from an intact.

I could have arguments with my husband throughout these years. I could have even big arguments and not have the fear that divorce was gonna be thrown around as a word or that, that, that he was going to leave me or that I was going to leave him. Like, it just, it's a safe space. You can be in an argument with your husband and even not talk to him for a couple days or whatever, and not fear that the, that the whole thing is gonna fall apart.

And yet this defective witness that, that the daughters of divorce have is. A conflict makes her feel like the relationship is ending. It is a catastrophic feeling from what I understand that Oh no, it's, it's, it's over. This is a catastrophe when in fact it could be just a normal marital spat. So it's really, I mean, to think, and again, I, I, I come from it almost ashamed that I didn't realize how, how much suffering went on in, in many marriages, because to have that kind of burden and that kind of anxiety on your shoulders all the time, waiting for that other shoe to drop, so to speak, is just excruciating.

What, what a burden, who can carry that kind of burden in addition to just the normal burdens of marriage and life Anyway. Right. No, and you hit on a point That's I think just such. You hit a nerve basically for our listeners, and that is this whole idea of conflict too, in addition to marriage. Overall conflict, like you said, can really be this kind of field of landmines where you're walking through just trying to, you know, not set anything off to the point where it can become really unhealthy.

And so I'd love to get into that further with you. But really in general, I'd love for you to break down for us. The difference between the woman who comes from an intact family and the woman who comes from a divorce family, how they experienced marriage. So the question really is, you know, what have you learned about how a woman from an intact family approaches marriage differently compared to a woman from divorce?

Right? So if, if you're standing on a firm foundation of your parents having been together, my parents before my father passed away, they were married for 54 years. Lots of fights. My dad is a hot blooded, was a hot blooded Arab, and my mom was stoic, kind of, you know, with English background and immigrant versus Ohio girl.

A lot of differences. And there were quite a few arguments, you know, and things were very loving and yet also very volatile at times. So there's, there's this experience of being in kind of sometimes rocky, rocky days with your parents, and yet there was never a fear. That love ends. There was never a fear that, oh my gosh, what's gonna happen here?

I'm, I'm, I'm kind of careening off a, off a cliff. I was very secure. I had no, no issues when they fought, it's like, gosh, that's a bummer. You know, no child likes to see their parents fight, but I knew that divorce was off the table always, and so that security was there. That is priceless. To give that to your child is just, is absolutely priceless.

For the child of divorce, we have an, there's an analogy here in the, in the book, it's, it's like standing on an ice, an ice cap, you know, a floating iceberg, and you could kind of navigate that. If it's firm under, you're like, okay, I'm just standing on this. It's, it's a little rocky sometimes when a split or divorce happens, it's like, okay, the ice, ice cap breaks the iceberg, you know, breaks.

And now you've got one foot on one side and one foot on the other, and things start to move and shift and you're really having trouble keeping your balance. And people might see that you're still standing. Okay, look, she's still standing. Look at that. She's doing great, but you're really putting everything into this and, and it is.

Exhausting. And you're scared and you're anxious, and you're afraid you're gonna fall. And then there might be, your foundation might have split once, but what if your foundation has split with subsequent divorces? Then you've got, you know, four different ice pieces you're standing on trying to stay afloat is to stay upright.

You know, and then some, some pieces might float off like step grandparents that you loved, but they're gone now. Or, you know, step siblings and other parent, you know, stepparents that left. You're navigating so many different things, trying to just stand and it is exhausting all the time. And it can lead to just, again, depression and anxiety.

And there's an idea that you're gonna use a coping mechanism that you might have used as a child in your own marriage. So you're, you're in your marriage and things are, things are happening with your husband. Maybe there's some. , you don't know any better than to use these coping mechanisms that might have kept you afloat, right?

Yeah. As a child, a divorce, but that don't necessarily work when you're talking to a husband. So that's a real problem. And, and these are self-preservation measures. Things like ignoring problems or trying to minimize things or, or putting up a per a perfect facade, trying to be perfect all the time, or, or isolate cutting yourself off and being very independent.

Well, those things aren't gonna work with a husband where there needs to be intimacy and there needs to be friendship and, and, uh, communication and understanding. So there are all these different things that are happening, and yet you, you, you're, again, you're, you're someone who is, is expected to pull this off seamlessly and you might look good from the outside.

It might look like everything's going well, but inside you're just a complete mess and you think that everything is, you know, falling apart and, and inside you might be falling apart. So, Appearances are deceiving. You know, when people suddenly implode and leave their marriages, a lot of times it's because all of this just blew up and, and they just, they just couldn't maintain this balance anymore.

So we have to really be aware that it's normal to have these, these wounds, but we have to give, the daughters have divorced the tools to overcome those wounds and be able to have the stable marriage so that we can, you know, heal the generations. Amen. Yeah. Wow. No, and thank you for going into so much detail and I know, you know, so many people listening right now can resonate with so much of what you said, and I think it is important at this point.

Um, as you alluded to that there is hope and there are things that you can do to cope in healthy ways, but also heal and grow and go beyond. A lot of these wounds and I, I'd love to turn to that, if that's okay. Mm-hmm. , you know, based on what you've learned, what advice would you have for women listening right now, whose parents are divorced when it comes to navigating marriage?

Number one is to always remember that God is with you, okay? God is with you. God is your biggest cheerleader. You know, God and the saints, Mary and the saints, everyone is, is on your side. Everyone wants to defeat this, this spirit of divorce in your family and in the generations. So number one, turn to turn to God in prayer.

Always give it to him. Give it everything to him. There's a principle that I like to. Talk a lot about lately. Actually, I, I learned this from Father Riper, the famous exorcist. He said, and this is just a Catholic principle, so it's nothing he made up. The emotions must always be subordinate to our intellect and our will.

Okay, that's right. Order. And part of what we wanna do as we go into our own marriages, you know, if your child had divorce is to put everything in right order that, that's gonna heal a lot right there. So the first thing we have to know is, again, and I'll preface it by saying this, you don't have to repeat your parents' mistakes.

That that is number one, I don't care if it's a mantra, you have to say every day you're your own person. You make your own decisions, you're your own moral agent. Yes, you may have habits of reaction. That are negative, that are, are unhealthy, but you can change those habits, right? That's how we change from vice to virtue anyways, we, vice is a habit and virtue is a habit and sometimes it's tedious, but you just have to keep repeating the virtue, you know, repeating the truth till we get to a habit and then it becomes a part of us.

So, When we talk about the emotions having to be subordinate to the intellect of the will, what I, what I mean by that and what the church has always taught is everything starts in the mind. Everything is a thought. The scripture says you have to take captive your thoughts. Even sin. Sin begins with a thought.

You have to will a sin. You have to make a decision. So with your marriage and with just, just an understanding of what happened to you as a child or even as an adult, if your parents were, uh, divorced as you were. Your knowledge is that was wrong. That was an injustice to the child, to the children of that, of that marriage.

Someone sinned, right? Someone, it doesn't have to be both, but somewhere, someone sinned enough that that marriage fell apart. Mm-hmm. have that knowledge. Say, okay, that's not how it was supposed to be. It's not right order. It was an injustice. I know that's not how it has to be, and I know that God will help me in my own marriage.

So find out what the knowledge, what is marriage? Uh, you know, it's meant to be permanent. Okay. How can I get there from here? Then have the knowledge of the tools that we need, you know, decide what is it, what do we need to, to go forward here and do and do it well? Again, your number one tool is your. Your number one tool is applying your will to what you know, so that if you get a feeling of anxiety or fear, you're not gonna let that be the determining factor of what you do.

Mm-hmm. , you think and you say, Nope, I know. I know what, I know what marriage is. I know that I love my husband. I know that I'm not gonna repeat this for my children. I'm gonna put my will, I'm gonna, I'm gonna apply my will to what I know. Is God's will and then my emotion can just kind of sit there. I'll, I'll sit there with that, but I'm not going to let it be the determiner of what happens to my marriage.

Hmm. So, so those are kind of tools you have to put everything in right. Order to start to heal the disorder, if that makes sense. Yeah. No, it absolutely does. And that, that's so helpful. And what I hear you saying too, kind of underneath all this, and you mentioned it a little bit earlier in the interview, is you really have to start Yeah.

With the, the awareness and not only of the divorce being impactful on you, but also of the fact that like, hey, it's not uncommon to struggle in these ways if you come from a divorced family. And I think that's so freeing cuz what we've seen again and again from the experts we've spoken to, as well as just the stories that you've told that we've had on this podcast is awareness is that first step in healing and overcoming and in building virtue truly to, to build the beautiful marriage.

And so you truly can, and I've seen this in my own marriage and in the marriages of other children of divorce, is. You can struggle in one area, for example. Conflict has always been something really difficult for me. I, I tend to get really defensive and I think it's because on some level I feel like I'm like kind of fighting for my own survival, which is an overreaction to, you know, what, what the situation usually is.

But it's something like deeply ingrained in me that I've had to work through. And so what I've done is, you know, What's the proper way to handle conflict? Learn that, you know, learn from the experts who figured it out, learn from other really good marriages. And not to hold myself, uh, up on a pedestal by any means, but just to be kind of a Guinea pit, an example to everyone.

I've definitely grown there. I've improved, I've, I'm able to better handle conflict now to where I'm not triggered as much. I don't get as offensive. I'm able to talk things through better, uh, with my wife and even. Healthy resolution. And so I think, uh, for everyone listening right now, who maybe feel, feels overwhelmed with all of this, uh, one of those tools and, and just to give you hope that, that you can accomplish this is, you know, hand on conflict.

Well, and there's other tools as well, but I just wanna give you guys hope that, uh, you don't have to say suck where you are. You can grow, you can heal, you can build the virtues that you need in order to have a, a more beautiful marriage and. Can get to a point where you're not always on high alert.

That's one of the main things I wanted to say, because there's so many of us. I think we do feel that, like you said before, like the other shoe's about to drop, like there's a disaster around every corner. Like we're, our spouse is gonna leave us. Especially if maybe mom or dad just kind of uped and left in the middle of the night, um, we might feel like, oh gosh, that's gonna happen to me at any point.

So I think it's a, it's so helpful, the tips you're giving as well as just this idea that you. Grow, you can improve, you can become a better version of yourself. And that's beautiful because as you were discussing that, it, it's exactly how virtue works, which is it, it just, it becomes a habit. Like you, you had to rethink and redo and, and act differently.

And then really, um, it's almost tedious, but you have to keep coming back to the right way to respond. And, and like you said, you're doing better. Like it's. and that's what people, it was like being an athlete. You know, you can't just give up after the first or second day that you work out. You have to keep going and you're gonna have setbacks and, and when you have a setback, you just start again.

I mean, that's, that's the spiritual life anyway. That's, that's actually how saints are made. And, and I will say this too, like you said, you know, waiting for the other shoe to drop this, this catastrophe that may be just around the corner if, if you are married to. Someone who is from an intact family, they are probably completely unaware of what you're going through internally.

Mm. So it is really helpful, and I've noticed this just from my work with the children of divorce. It is really helpful to make sure that your spouse understands the wounds you have from your parents' divorce. It, it, it will open up their eyes and, and actually it will be a great relief to them usually because a lot of times the spouses of the children of.

If they're not from divorce themselves, they don't understand a lot of the reactions or coping mechanisms or, or fighting techniques or whatever it is that their spouse is doing in the marriage. And it, it, it could be kind of alarming. It could seem very irrational. And that's important for the spouse to know, like, oh, okay, okay.

It's not. It's that, you know, my wife is, is trying to work out the issues that she had as a child from the devastation of, of watching her parents' marriage blow up. But we never think about that cuz, you know, everybody's just supposed to be fine. We're all supposed to just know how to do marriage Well again, the child from an intact family at least knows the part about how to stay.

Hmm. And so the other person doesn't. And so that, that's where all the, the conflict comes in and the, and the unreasonable ways of, of coping. Tell that intact, you know that, that that husband or spouse of an intact marriage, what you're struggling with and why they're clueless. I could tell you we are clueless

We are, we are clueless, and, and if you have a spouse who is from divorce also, then help each other. Then you can really kind of dive into. These mutual struggles that you probably have because there's probably more of that than, than you recognize and, and then you know, that's less isolating you, you both would then have the same types of concerns or anxieties perhaps.

So, so that's helpful too. So God will give us what we need as long as we're aware. Again, like you said, be aware and then, and then speak to your spouse. Hmm. That's beautiful. One thing along those lines that has been helpful for me. Communicating what I need to. My wife and I know for a long time, people from divorced families, we, we tend to be very int.

Not always, but there's this clear trend that we tend to be like very fiercely independent, where we don't really like relying on other people. And the reason that I've come to with that is that we feel like people are just gonna let us down because we felt that by our parents who we relied on more than anyone.

And so we tend to like, kind of shy away, keep people at arms length often. And so, um, it can be really helpful. Communicate that, Hey, you know, I need this from you, I need that from you. This is really helpful for me. And it's kind of humbling to be honest, especially as a man, I feel like to, to tell your wife like, Hey, you know, this is like really helpful.

It gives me life, it helps me to feel loved. All, all those things. And so that, that's kind of something to add along to, uh, what you already said, which is such good advice. And going a little bit further. There. I think there's this need for a lot of us to make virtue really practical. So if it's okay, let's talk about that for a second.

I'd love to hear maybe. How in your life you've focused on building virtue. And one thing I wanted to offer is a great book that everyone could read called Atomic Habits. It's a secular book, but it's, uh, very good. It breaks down kind of how habits are formed and, and how you can go through, you know, replacing bad habits, vices, or, you know, starting good habits virtues.

And there's four parts to have. I've always found this really helpful, uh, in trying to build virtue in my own life personally, what I do, Lela. Every week I get a reminder on my phone to pick a new virtue for the week. And sometimes it's the same in as last week, but it's something that I want to, like, keep front and center.

And so, um, every day I'll get reminded too, like, Hey, you're working on humility this week, or selflessness. And so then I'll of course bring that into my prayer life and ask God for the grace to actually live out that virtue, but in very small ways I can start living that virtue out. And it's not something I'm advertising by any means, but it's something that I'm, I'm trying to do every single day.

And so that little system has been helpful for me, but. Reading this book, atomic Habits has been great because in the book he breaks down, uh, James Claire, the author breaks Sam the habits into four parts. He says, the first part is the cue, whatever triggers you to do a habit. The next part is the craving, right?

The thing that kind of propels you forward toward the behavior, which is the third part that the action that you're taking. And then finally there's a reward. And so a typical example is like eating, right? We all have the habit of eating. So the cue would be maybe the time of day or feeling hungry. The craving would be, oh, I want to eat food, right?

I want this food smells good. I want to eat it. The, the behavior would be cooking the food or buying the food and eating the food. And the reward would be that it tastes good, you know, gives your body the nutrients that it needs, hopefully, uh, and so on. And so what he says is, if you wanna start a good habit, What you need to do is focus on these four parts for the queue.

He said the queue has to be very obvious. The, the, the craving has to be attractive, right? You need to make it attractive to do these good things. Uh, the behavior has to be easy. Doesn't mean that every be, every virtue is gonna be super easy, but it has to be somewhat easy. At least simple. And then the reward needs to be satisfying.

And so you can kind of game these different parts and um, it's, it's really fun to play with and, and can be very effective. Like there's incredible stories of people, uh, kinda on a physical level who've just lost, you know, a hundred pounds because they've used these principles to be more active, to eat healthier and so on.

And so I'm curious in your life, and I mean go on a monologue there, but I'm curious in your life Yeah. What's been helpful for you in terms of developing virtue, building virtue? That's a great question, by the way. I like that a lot. That's really a game plan. I love that. Like it's very practical building virtue.

Well, you know, I'm, I'm 55 years old and I'm just starting to learn how to virtue . But I think, like I said, number one was really helpful. The idea that, you know, emotions are subordinate to intellect and will, that for me is really helpful to me personally because instead of, I, I heard from, I think it was Dan Burke that said, you know, saints don.

React, they respond. Mm-hmm. . So, you know, to get to the point where you're not reacting, and again, I think Father Riper said, you know, we usually, our triggers are antecedent emotions. They're whatever came before, we're just kind of programmed to react the same way we did before. And so, so we kind of have to fight against that, which is, again, what do I know first I have to go to, what do I know?

I have to stop, think, and then apply my will. So that, that has helped me quite a bit. The other thing is, In a marriage, especially focusing on myself and my own vices and my own, you know, virtues and prayer life and overcoming that, again, through, through habituation is important because until we begin to actually focus on ourselves, we can't fix.

Our vices. So the shift from looking at other people to looking at ourselves is, is huge but difficult, especially for women in a marriage cuz I don't know if you know, but many of us women, we like to fix our husbands. So when you do that, you're not looking at yourself. And uh, so for the virtue for women, it's okay, stop thinking how you can make your husband better and start thinking about how you.

Become more virtuous yourself. Yeah. And so, wow. Then it is about, like you said, it's, it's about, uh, very practical terms. And in, in my case, it's more, it has been more about finally, uh, getting into the practice of not being haphazard with a prayer life, for example. Now I do go to daily mass every single day.

Obviously it wasn't easy when you have little kids, but. I don't miss daily mass. Uh, I'm finally, it's easy, you know, it was really hard. Now it's easy. I do a daily rosary and a family rosary that, that was always very hard up until my fifties even. But now I do it and it's very easy. A daily mental prayer.

Uh, a daily novena, all these different, a holy hour a week. Those are things that. You know, I always look forward to my meals every day. I'm kind of a gluttony is kind of one of my things. But, well, if I could look forward to, okay, at this time I'm gonna be eating, uh, my eggs, you know, for breakfast or at this time, why can't I do the same thing with good things that are, you know, more spiritual, a more he, uh, developing virtue.

Like, okay, at this time I will be at mass at this time I'm going to pray my novena. At this time I'm gonna sit in front of Jesus in the blessed sacrament. And I know not all your listeners are Catholic, but for, for the. That's a really wonderful habit to be in, and those sort of things start to change you because then you're starting to think about God more than than the other person you're trying to maybe fix, and even you're putting God above yourself.

You're thinking of God and you want to please him. So it's kind of this self forgetfulness, but being in the habit of doing these things that come as a routine, maybe that's the word I'm looking for. You have to have routines, just like the monks and nuns have, have a plan of life. They actually have a rule, a rule of life.

Well, we, we, in the, we lay people out here in the world. We have to have something that's a bit of a routine that we can kind of get into the habit of these things. So it's not easy, of course it's not. No, but, but it's something that, you know, it's never too late to start. We're showing this to our children.

Like I have kids, you know, from age 31 down to 12. My earlier kids, my older kids, they didn't see us do the habit of daily rosary or family rosary. But, but now, you know, we're in the habit of that for the, for the, for the last few kids. Mm-hmm. . So again, it's not gonna happen necessarily all at once, but it's a goal and you wanna at least have those goals and try to try to fit them in.

And eventually they do become habit. That's beautiful. One of the things that's always been really encouraging to me when it comes to building virtue, cuz it can feel like you're just set back so often it's like, okay, I've been really good with, you know, controlling my temper or something and it's like, oh, then I got in this argument and kind of lost my temper.

It's like, oh, I'm set back to kind of square one. Um, one of the things that's been really helpful is. Just remembering that you can make these 1% improvements, these incremental improvements, and, but in time, if you do that consistently, you're gonna see a ton of growth in that book I mentioned Atomic Habits.

He tells the story of the British cycling team. They were like the worst cycling team in, you know, these, um, Bike races and the Olympics as well. They were just horrible. And they got a new coach. And the coach when he came in, he just focused on these 1% improvements, as he said, these really small improvements.

And they did those, um, over a few years to the point where these British cyclists were ending up finishing first, or finishing in the top five. And I think even winning a lot of gold medals. And so there's an incredible power in that. So if anyone listening, if you feel overwhelmed, feeling like, oh gosh, I have so many vices, I, so many virtues I need to build, uh, start.

Start really small, do those little things every day, the incremental improvements. And in time you're gonna look up in the middle, realize, wow, okay, I am a better person, I'm a more virtuous person. I think that's the goal, uh, for all of us. And there's so much that you said I wanna talk, talk about, but just a few kind of highlights of what I'm learning from you is, one, God's grace is essential.

And for anyone listening who doesn't know much about grace, God's grace is basically his life in us, in our souls. And one of the functions of grace in our souls is that it helps us to do good and avoid evil, right? Live up virtue, avoid vice, and going further in that one of the functions is that it strengthens our will.

So it strengthens our will. So we can choose what is good. Likely mentioned our will is always the really the main factor. In living out virtue. And so that, that was a great lesson Le And then the other thing you said about like just pausing in those moments where you wanna react and instead respond psychiatrist Victor Frankel, he is an awesome quote that I love going back to again and again.

If you've listened to this podcast for a time, you've probably heard me say this, and that is, uh, between stimulus. And response. There is a space in that. Space is our power to choose our response in our response lies our growth and our freedom. And what he's saying there basically is the stimulus, the thing that makes you feel something or wanna react a certain way.

And your response, you're more thoughtful words or actions. Um, that there's a space. And if you can lengthen that space and pause a second, then you're gonna be able to better respond in a way that really aligns with who you want to. The type of person that you want to be. And so I've always found that helpful.

And then the final thing, just to tie this all together, when it comes to marriage, one thing I've learned studying beautiful married couples and reading research about marriage is that the more virtuous the couple, the happier the marriage always. It's always the case. And so what we're talking about here for, especially for all you women listening who come from divorced families, is if you can focus on building these virtue, It's gonna help you deal with a lot of the brokenness that you carry into your marriage to the point where it might not even be a struggle one day, which is really beautiful.

I've seen that in people's marriages, and so that's why we're talking so much about virtue here and, and there's so much more we can say. But le, any final thoughts when it comes to virtue before we move on? Yeah. You know, something that Lean gave me that I included in the book was this idea that we can paint a picture in our mind's eye of what we want.

Of the, of the beautiful family that God intended for us. So, you know, you could think about being there always for your husband, uh, having your children in your home, in an intact family, your children and, and their spouses, and your grandchildren coming home for Christmas. You know, as they get older, and you can paint that picture in your mind's eye and realize this is an ordered beautiful picture.

And, and use that as a motivation, like make it happen. You know, this is my future. This is what I believe God. Has in store for us if we just follow his, his, his law and, and get those habits of virtue and just, and, and keep those vows, those sacred promises that we said before the Lord and witnesses. And there is this, this motivation to see a future very, very different from the one that your parents had.

Not full of brokenness but full of, of love and family and, and, and whole. I thought that was very beautiful. I'm like, yeah, you know, we always tell people to visualize things and why not visualize your beautiful future? When you, when you live your marriage out in a way that is different from your parents and you don't have to follow their pattern, there's nothing that says that you have to do what they did.

Hmm. I love that. That's actually been, that's been really helpful for my wife and I. We didn't pick up on that piece of advice that you said right away, but in time, just realize like, yeah, how important it's to have that vision for your marriage and for your family, and I remember, It took us a while to get to this point.

We had tried for a while and just kind of pretty much failed, fell in our face of like creating this whole vision. But in time we eventually, I remember sitting in like our living room, it was like a dark living room. We're just sitting there just talking, kind of like dreaming a little bit, like, Hey, what do we want our family?

What do we want our marriage to look like? And we went through different areas of our life, just like, you know, you're saying like Lean was saying. And that was really helpful for us. It kind of gave us something to work towards, a mountain top to climb towards, and we broke it down into different areas of our life and we're actually gonna be producing some content in the future on this as well.

It's a really simple exercise that people can go through because I love this piece of advice and so thank you for mentioning that. And again, I've benefited from that same advice and I hope everyone listening to can, you know, make use of that exercise when we're able to put that together. Hmm. Well, and keep in mind a marriage is a life's.

It is a life's work. And if you fall, this is another, you know, just practical tip, you just get up immediately. There's, uh, father Timothy Gallagher does a lot on, um, on this. He has, uh, the book called, I think it's called, it's something about spiritual discouragement, how to overcome spiritual discouragement, and he quotes a blessed or a Saint Bruno Tani, I think his name is, where his whole focus is immediately start.

It, it's just, wow. It's kind of like the mantra in his mind is just start again immediately, and that word immediately and start again, just comes back again and again. So it doesn't matter what just happened two seconds ago. Start again. Everything is new. Everything is new. That's great advice. Thank you so much.

And I want to shift gears a little bit before we finish out our interview and kind of go upstream. So obviously the source of so much of the, these struggles, so many of these struggles that we're talking about for women of divorce or daughters of divorces, Is the divorce itself? Is the dysfunction at home, everything, all the trauma that they have endured there.

And so I wanna give you a chance to speak to the parents. Mm-hmm. , perhaps parents right now who are in a really difficult marriage. What advice would you give to a parent listening who, who does find himself or herself in a really difficult marriage? Take divorce off the table. Even if there is a situation where you have to physically separate, take divorce off the table, because if you take divorce off the table, everything else opens up as a possibility.

There is something in the mind of the church, which we've kind of forgotten, but this is still the mind of the church and it is still in Canon law even. It is what Christ said is what St. Paul said. I'm gonna read you something if you don't mind, that Pope Leo the 13th. And this is in 1880. Pope Leo the 13th said, and again, these are for those hard cases, he said, when indeed matters have come to such a pitch that it seems impossible for spouses to live together any longer, then the church allows them to live apart and strives at the same time.

To soften the evils of this separation by such remedies and helps as are suited to their condition. Yet she never ceases to endeavor to bring about a reconciliation and never despairs of doing so. That's the mind of the church. So whatever you're going through, whatever you're going through, Again, this is a lifetime vow.

This is something that is going to have some people get through it very easily and it's a very happy marriage. Other people have heavy, heavy crosses, but there's no destiny to divorce. That's not destiny. You have a choice. So thankfully, most of these problems and people headed towards divorce are low conflict divorce.

Stay away from any well-meaning friends who are trying to put a wedge between you and your husband or wife, depending on which parent I'm talking to. Most of the time, priested counselors and therapists, even Catholic ones or Christian ones, aren't gonna have the tools to help you. You need to seek out people who don't believe in divorce and go from there.

You need to seek out groups of friends who will not push you to divorce or, or whisper those, you know, pretty lies in your. You are going to make the difference for the generations that come after you. If you, if you break this family, it is likely to be the lot of the next generations, and then Satan has one, not just a soul or two, but generations.

So you have a lot of power in your hands. Do everything you can to take divorce off the table. Patiently, patiently live out those vows and see what God does. He will work miracles. I have seen it again and again. I wrote a whole book on it called Impossible Marriages Redeemed. Yeah. They didn't end the story in the middle.

Don't end God's story in the middle there, there, there is help. There are people who can help. Not as many as we need, but there are more and more coming. Don't give up. Thank you so much. And one kind of side note on that, I, I wanted to ask if there are any stories you can think of from that book and possible marriages redeemed to give everyone hope that, hey, if you push through these hard times, there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Because I think so often when we're in the midst of these, Conflicts when we're in the midst of a lot of brokenness in our marriages. It can be so tempting, like you said, because of our culture, to just think like, well, divorce is the only option there. There's nothing else. So there, yeah. Any stories that you can think of that would offer hope that, hey, if you persevere through this, there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Oh gosh. There are so many there. There's so many. Off the top of my head, there was one woman who, her husband left. two different times. He divorced her two different times, civilly. Wow. Um, they had gotten back together once and divorced again. He had other, another civil wife. One of the times, each time they got back together, she, she'd have another baby.

So she ended up, I think they had seven children at the end. Well, turns out, you know, she never gave up. She never gave up even when they were living in different states, and it turns out that he had a massive conversion. Back to her, back to the faith, back to the family. And they spent the last 20 years, she's now in her seventies.

In fact, her dear, dear husband just passed away. I, I heard like last month, but they got back together in their fifties. Their children are thriving. Every one of their seven children is in a devoutly Catholic marriage. Although I think when they lost to, uh, ALS one of their sons. But he was just a wonderful human being.

Also, she, uh, and her husband lived the last 20 years of their marriage. In absolute joy, in in, in the same type of joy they had when they got married originally. And there was forgiveness, there was redemption, and she went on to really help a lot of younger wives who. Are struggling to try to tell them and explain to them this is about prayer and God's grace and being at peace.

You made your vow and just trust God. He will bring something beautiful out of it. If you are faithful, he will be faithful as well. And we don't know what that's gonna look like. But for her it was the redemption of her marriage decades later to where they had a beautiful life and their and their children are and grandchildren are just thrive.

Wow, that's beautiful. That's so inspiring and uh, I hope everyone can pick up that book and the book Women Made New, in addition to your chapter, there's so many other chapters that, uh, women can, can learn from and men, like you said, can benefit from it as well. So thank you for writing this and I'm curious how can people buy the book and how can people follow you if they'd like to?

So the book, I believe can be bought@ewtnpublishing.com and the religious catalog. If people are familiar with EWTN religious catalog, I believe it's available there. Again, it's Lina Effort is the one who, uh, put this together and people can find me and, and my books, uh, and writings on marriage and and marriage support@laylamiller.net.

That's spelled l e i l a, Miller dot. Awesome. Thank you so much. And I do see the book on Amazon too, for everyone who, uh, wants to grab it there, which is great. But either one works wonderful. And, uh, yeah, again, thank you so much for spending time with us, for all of your wisdom and for all you're doing.

For those of us who come from divorced families who come from broken families, I, I, I can't thank you enough. And Joey, can I just say I wanna thank you for writing the book you did, which is called It's Not Your Fault, which is, I think, one of a kind. It's the only thing out there like that, which helps to, you know, children of divorce navigate through a lot of different difficult situations in their life.

So thank you for that. Of course. Um, you're doing such wonderful work, so I, I appreciate you. No, my pleasure. And I, we have a great team over here and you've been so helpful as well. And so, yeah, I can't thank you enough and um, really appreciate the, the kind words there. I want to give you the last word in closing out the interview.

Uh, what words of encouragement would you give to especially the women listening who come from, uh, divorce families, broken families? Who feel broken, who feel stuck, who are struggling in their own marriages or maybe just afraid of marriage altogether? What encouragement, what advice would you give them as a final word?

I would say you're not destined to divorce just because your parents did and because you have suffering in your life and struggles and trials. That is not the worst thing. In fact, that's a cross that's been given to you for your own sanctification, and if you understand the gift of carrying that cross, you will become a saint.

Your family will benefit. Your children will see you. Overcoming so much of your past to become someone that is renewed. It is a gift from God. Whether you understand that now or not, you will look at retrospect and you will see every struggling and every suffering you have been given is a gift from God for your sanctification and for the the blessing of your family going forward.

Ladies and men, listen. What's one thing that you can do today or this week to heal and to build virtues so that you can build the life and the marriage that you want? Even if you're in a marriage, maybe right now, that isn't the marriage that you want, how can you work towards that marriage that you want, that life that you want?

What's one thing you can do today or this week from this? That will help you accomplish that. I encourage you all to pick up the new book that Lela contributed to. Women Made New. Again, you can click on the link in the show notes to get that. If you do wanna buy the book that Lela mentioned that I wrote titled It's Not Your Fault, A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems From Your Parents' Divorce.

It's really easy to do that. Just go to ReSTOR. ministry.com/books. Again, restored ministry ministry singular.com/books. So just click on the link in the show notes and on that page, you can buy the book on Amazon. You can even get the first chapters for free. And the book itself covers 33 questions and answers in the most pressing challenges faced by teenagers and young adults from broken families, such as After my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted, inadequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me.

What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life event? How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage? And so many more questions. And the content itself is based on research, expert advice, common sense, and real life stories. And after reading, it's not your fault.

Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents' divorce or separation, how to. Build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems. They'll learn healing tactics to help them feel whole again. They'll learn how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God, and how to make important decisions about their future.

Again, if you want that book, you can go to restored ministry.com/books to buy it or to get the first chapters for free, or just click the link in the show notes again, restored ministry.com/books, or just click on the link in the show. And given the topic today, we wanted to offer a free PDF guide to you.

It's called Seven Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce Proof Marriage. And if you benefited from the tips in this episode on relationships and marriage, this content in this free guide follow suit and it even goes deeper as well. And so if you want that guide again, seven Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce Proof Marriage, you can get that@restoredministry.com.

Marriage ReSTOR ministry.com/marriage because the truth is we all desire love that lasts, but if we're honest, most of us don't know how to build it. And to make matters worse, so often we're just discouraged by the prevalence of divorce and we fear that our own marriages are gonna end that way, especially if we saw our parents' marriage.

And that way. And so in this practical guide for, for singles, for couples, we have for a Roadmap for love, and it's based on marriage research, on, on really beautiful time tested couples and Christianity's wisdom. Uh, the guide contains seven tips, as I said, on building that thriving and divorce proof marriage.

And in addition to the written guide, you're gonna get a free 60 minute talk on the same topic. And again, we've heard a lot of great feedback about this, talk about this guide as well, and. To get the guide again in the bonus talk, just go to restored ministry.com/marriage. Just enter your name and email and then we'll send you the PDF guide in the talk.

Again, restored ministry.com/marriage, or just click on the link in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

#084: Angry at God? Why People from Broken Families Struggle Extra in Their Relationship with Him | Sr. Miriam James Heidland

Have you rejected God? Do you really struggle in your relationship with him? If you’re from a broken family and that’s true, you’re not strange. In fact, it’s really common.

Why? From a young age, our parents represent God to us. If their example wasn’t good, it leaves us with a distorted image of God. As a result, we reject him or struggle extra in our relationship with him. We discuss that and more:

• How Sr. Miriam began drinking at age 12 and became an alcoholic as a D1 athlete

• 3 common barriers that prevent you from healing

• Tough questions like, “Why would God allow our families to fall apart?” and “Why doesn’t God make his love more obvious?”

Buy Sr. Miriam’s Book: Behold: A Guided Advent Journal for Prayer and Meditation

Buy Joey’s Book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Sr. Miriam James Heidland

  • Twitter

  • To schedule a speaker, contact: eventrequests@solt.net

  • Abiding Together Podcast 

  • Society of Our Lady of the Most Holy Trinity

• Books

  • Restore: A Guided Lent Journal for Prayer and Meditation | Sr. Miriam James Heidland

  • Loved as I Am: An Invitation to Conversion, Healing, and Freedom through Jesus | Sr. Miriam James Heidland

  • Be Healed: A Guide to Encountering the Powerful Love of Jesus in Your Life | Dr. Bob Schuchts

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you come from a broken family and you really struggle in your relationship with God, or maybe you've downright rejected God, I'm actually not surprised. In fact, it's really common for people like us. I've been there myself, and you might be asking the question, why is that? Basically from a young age, our parents represent God to us, and if their example wasn't good, we tend to think on a subconscious level.

Well, if they're like that, then God must be. Two. And it leaves us with this distorted image of God. And as a result, we reject him or we struggle extra in our relationship with him. We break all that down and more in this episode with my guests as she shares vulnerably her story, how she began drinking at 12 years old, how she struggled with alcoholism, even as a division one volleyball player, and how she really hid her addiction and her brokenness so well for so many years.

And finally, she shares how she found healing, how she found, uh, so much peace and so much growth, and was able to leave that all behind. And she answers the question too, what is healing? What is the definition of healing? It's a really important question. She also shares three common barriers that prevent you from healing.

We also discuss some common struggles in your relationship with God such. Why would God allow our families to fall apart? And why doesn't God make his love more obvious for us? And then she answers the question, how do you heal and offer some healing resources to help you do just that? I'm so thrilled for you to hear this episode with our incredible guests, so keep listening.

Welcome to the Restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation, or broken marriage, so you and feel whole. Again, I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 84. If you haven't heard my book, it's Not Your Fault. A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents'.

Divorce is available on Amazon, and the sad truth is that for a lot of teenagers and young adults, the most traumatic thing that they've endured in their lives is their parents' separation or divorce. But nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and all the problems that stem from their family's breakdown.

And without that guidance, they continue to feel alone and struggle in numerous ways, in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping, relationship struggles, and so much more. And I experienced these exact same problems. I felt alone myself without the guidance that I really needed, and it really shouldn't be this way.

It's not your fault, my book, it's an answer to that problem. It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges face by teens, young adults from broken families, such as After my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted, and adequate, and even rejected as something wrong with me.

What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life events? How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage, and so many more questions and answers? The content itself is based on research, expert advice, and real life stories. And after reading, it's not your fault.

Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma from their parents', divorce or separation, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems. They'll learn healing tactics to help them feel whole again. They'll learn how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God, and how to make important decisions about their future.

To buy the book or just get the first chapters for free, just go to restored ministry.com/books. Again, that's restored ministry ministry singular.com/books, or just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Sister Miriam James Hyland, and she's a popular speaker. She's the cohost of the Abiding Together podcast and author of the best selling book.

Loved as I Am. She's a former division one athlete who had a radical conversion and became a religious sister, and her story's been featured on E w tns, the Journey Home at Seek and Steubenville Conferences at the U S C C B convocation Relevant Radio and other outlets. And she holds a master's degree in theology from the Augustan Institute in Denver.

And she speaks regularly on the topics of conversion, authentic love, forgiveness, healing, and even sports. In fact, she actually wanted to become an espn, uh, newscaster. We talk about that a little bit in the show. She also frequently puts on retreats with Dr. Bob CHUs, who you may remember from episode 30.

And by the way, if you wanna request Sister Miam to speak at your event, just contact her@eventrequestsot.net event requests ot.net. We'll throw that in the show notes for you. Quick disclaimer. This conversation obviously includes a lot of talk about God and faith, but if you don't believe in God, I'm really glad that you're here and I really challenge you to listen with an open mind.

And even if you take the God parts out, there's still a lot for you in this episode. But at some point, I really wanna challenge you. You owe it to yourself to tackle this topic, to wrestle with maybe why you don't believe in God, and why you struggle so much in your relationship with Him. And that's exactly what this episode is meant to do.

It's not meant to be preachy, to convert you, to convince you of anything, but really just to show you like, Hey, these struggles that you have in your relationship with God, they're there for a reason. The fact that you reject God, there's a reason for that, and you really owe it to yourself to dig into that and really understand it, uh, to see is that the right path for you.

And again, we're not here to coerce you or make you go any which way, but I just, I wanna challenge you to dig into these topics because they're so important. And so just give it a shot and listen with an open mind. Let's dive into my conversation with Sister Miriam.

Sister Miriam, thank you so much for making time to be here with us today. Oh, thank you, joy. Thanks for having me with you. I'm delighted to be here. Delighted. Yeah. I'd like to just dive in and kind of go deep quickly, if that's okay. At what point in your life did you realize that you needed healing? Mm, that's a great question.

I think, I think that's an ongoing awareness. fair. I think a lot. I think a lot of times in our life we. Manage and we try to get through things and we tell ourselves it's okay. And I think when you ask most people how they're doing, which you know, in certain social settings is entirely appropriate, but if you say how you're doing, they'll say, good busy, , good busy.

And, and you know, that's fine if you say that at a cocktail party with people you don't really know. And God forbid we wouldn't be busy cuz then we wouldn't be important, right? All, all the things that go beyond, um, that, but if, if that's the answer we're giving to the Lord. And if that's the answer we're giving to people in our life who care about us the most, I think it's indicative of a place maybe where, um, fear is showing up in our life.

And I think I've had several really crystallizations of the Lord opening my heart to places where my heart has been broken. I look back at my story now and I, my heart goes out to that girl from the womb with such compassion. Such compassion, and there were just so many things I couldn't tell anybody.

And so I just kept a lot of secrets for a really long time. But I think I, I knew it underneath in my heart. I knew that something wasn't right and that my heart was broken, but I didn't know, uh, what to do about it. And it really wasn't until I, yeah, that I probably entered religious life, that I had a wonderful religious superior who first started opening those doors of, you know, what happens in our life when we've experienced trauma and, you know, what are our stories?

And I'd never had a place where I could look at my story even and have it be received. And so that was the very beginning. So that was a small opening in the door. I had a moment a few years later where I just kind of hit bottom in my life where I just looked at Jesus and I was like, I can't do this.

Like, I don't know. I don't know what to do, but I can't do this. And it was a deeper awareness of places. Things that happened to me as a little girl that'd never told anybody about, they were having a direct impact on my adult life that I had no idea. Mm-hmm. . So I think, and there's many, you know, just because we're so little and it's so wonderful, we always get to grow.

And there's every day in places in my life where I'm like, oh Lord, here's me trying to be self, you know, self sufficient or self reliant or independent, or telling myself stories that aren't true . So yeah, the Lord's like, I love you too much to let you live like that. I want you to live in the truth. So I'm gonna bring you into the light.

Beautiful. And as much as you're comfortable sharing, what were some of the wounds that you were grappling with? I have several ways where love has been ruptured in my life, even from the womb. And it's been for me, uh, an 18 year journey of healing. 18 years of very concerted intentional healing. And, but for me, I see the wounds beginning even from the womb of my mother.

Um, I was conceived out of wedlock. My biological parents were in high school. They were 17 years old and not married, and I was the fruit of their union, however that came to be. In the 1970s in the state of Texas, all adoptions were closed that I know of. And so to this day, I've never seen my parents. I don't know what they look like.

I don't know who they are. I have a piece of paper that tells me some physical characteristics. Uh, so I don't know for a fact, but I, in my own healing journey, I have a deep intuition, like a biological, like embodied intuition that at some point my mother thought of aborting me. Uh, but she didn't. And when I was born, uh, was given up for adoption and that was, that was a process that started while my mother was pregnant, but I wasn't ready.

I had some medical abnormalities. And so I was put in a foster home for three months, and then I was finally adopted by a mother and father who loved me very much and had been waiting to have a daughter for a very long time. But what was happening at that time is when I was finally adopted, that was mother number.

Already. And so you can hear already the broken attachment from the womb and where the enemy has come to start telling stories that aren't true of like, I'm not wanted, I'm a burden. Nobody cares. I'm an accent. I shouldn't be here. Um, I have to try really hard to be loved. If I don't, I'll be abandoned. I, I can just, I, I feel those in my body.

I, I know them very deeply of the stories that happened even from very young, when I was 11 years old, I was sexually abused. I didn't tell anybody. And then when I was 13 years old, I was just deeply violated by, uh, another man. And I just didn't tell anybody. And I just began a very shattering journey of a lot of promiscuity, a lot of, I began drinking at 12.

That's how my, I responded to that trauma was starting to drink at my 12th birthday. And so I, you say, I could say a crazy thing, but like really the most sorrowful thing, like I said, had you asked me at the time, if I was fine, I would've told you I was fine. And even in college, I played Division I of volleyball in college.

I wanted to work for espn. I was pursuing a career in journalism and. I just was a full blown alcoholic and I, I just, I wouldn't have told you that cause I was in college where I can get away with, you know, kind of excessive drinking in college. But I clearly had a different drinking pattern than my roommates and just the situations that would end up because of that particular way of trying to run away from my pain and, and, and cope with pain just created such sorrow in my life.

And so those were some really deep bedrocks of those major breaks of the shattering of my soul that where the enemy just would continue to pour in those lives. And these agreements that I came into that for the last, you know, over, over 18, I mean the 18 years, but when I into religious life only 24 years ago and then 18 years into that really began a journey of restoration with the Lord.

That still continues to this day, which I'm so grateful for. I get to continue to learn and grow and to allow Jesus to come and speak to my heart in deep. Wow. Beautiful. Thank you for sharing all that. And it's a lot of heavy stuff and I know a lot of our listeners can relate to a lot of what you, you went through the, the trauma you endured and mm-hmm.

one thing, there's so much to comment on, but one thing I just gathered from what you said is you were a high functioning alcoholic. Right. People looking from the outside, they would've seen you thriving, like playing D one volleyball. That's, that's a difficult thing to do. I'm curious. Yeah. Just the complexity of that, like hiding your struggles, was that a continual theme in your life of like making sure that other people didn't know that you weren't doing well?

I think that's a common theme for every single one of us. It's from the garden where, yeah, you know, Adam and Eve, their relationship is shattered and God the father comes in search of them and I think we have to be very careful assigning a tone of voice to God and he comes in search of them and they're not anywhere to be found and he knows what's happened and he comes to them and he says, where are you?

Now, where are you? But where? Where are you? And it's beautiful. Adam's response is all of our response. Adam says, I heard you in the garden. I was naked because I'm afraid. So I hid myself. And to me, when I think of Adam there, it's all of our responses. It's, I might be seen here, or I am seen here. I'm unlovable here and I have to do something about it on my.

And I think that's the, that's always, I know myself, like when I start to hide, even like to myself of things like I'm disappointed and I don't wanna admit it to myself. I, it's very interesting little things. I know myself well enough to know now that in those areas and just having a decom compassion saying, okay, we, we have to come to the truth of this.

And so, yeah. I think for people, we talk about addiction, which is a trauma response. All addictions are trauma responses, whether it's to food or to self-righteousness or anger or Instagram or porn or whatever that is. Like, it's all, they're all trauma responses. They're, there are ways of us trying to manage our pain and mm-hmm.

I think so for those of us who have, are in recovery for those things, we know them very well, but every person, just because of the nature of the fall, all of us have things that we very strategically and what with much sophistication, many times try to hide. We help those things go away and nothing just ever goes away.

Time, time does not heal all wounds. Time heals some wounds, but not all of them. The only thing that heals all wounds is authentic love. And that requires us being seen and being open and vulnerable, which is terrifying for us. Yeah, it is. And I remember when my parents separated, I was 11 and I couldn't have put it into words then, but I can now.

When my mom broke the news, I just was totally overwhelmed. It was certainly traumatic for me. I didn't know how to cope with that news. And so I remember just hiding in the closet and crying and sitting there in the closet. I felt abandoned. I felt un Monte. I felt like I just wasn't good enough. And in the months and years it felt I dealt with all sorts of pain and problems, but one of the ways that I coped was pornography was lust, and it really did numb the pain, but it made me miserable and I knew that I wanted to be happy.

But one of the trends I've seen through my whole life that goes back to the garden, like you said, is just this desire to feel wanted. Yeah. Like everything I've struggled with, Within my life in one way or another was just a, an attempt to, to be, wanted, to feel wanted. And what I hear you saying about Adam in the garden was like him basically telling God, God, you know, I noticed my imperfection, I noticed how I screwed up and I didn't wanna show myself too, cuz if I did, I was just afraid he wouldn't want me.

Mm-hmm. . And so it's, it's better we think to hide and run than it is to like show God our brokenness. Mm-hmm. . And I've certainly struggled with that over the years. Made a lot of progress as well. But, um, I think that is a common struggle for so many of us. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Oh gosh. Uh, joy, I just wanna honor, uh, I wanna honor that part of your heart.

I can feel that little boy inside and, and that just, that image of the closet crying, like, and just all the ways that the enemy surrounds with those lies of, isn't it interesting how we interpret that through our own story of like, we interpret those events through our, our worthiness or our lovability, or.

Oh gosh, that's so ugh. That's so sacred. It's so sacred. And that desire of being wanted, of being pursuit of, of having safe, consistent, unconditional love that that's deep in the heart of every person. No matter how many academic degrees you have, no matter what faith you practice, whether you don't practice any faith because we're human beings may the image like this of God, that desire for a love that never ends, a love that is consistent, that tells us the truth that is with us, that that frees us, uh, from hiding from the places we want to run away from, that that's the deepest desire of every heart.

Amen. Beautiful. No. Well, thank you. I appreciate your empathy and I couldn't agree more. I think everyone listening can resonate with everything that we're saying, especially cuz so many of our listeners come from broken families. They've been through that sort of trauma and they've, I'm sure, acted out in different ways.

And so I wanna turn our gaze toward healing. Mm-hmm. , what's helped you heal the most? Mm-hmm. . Oh gosh. There's been so many things. I, I really believe in the ways that Jesus comes to heal us. And the Lord doesn't have just one way He does that he is the way and in the heart that is his way. He has also just many ways of bringing us into wholeness and communion.

And so I know you've had Dr. Bob Schutz on your show, and, and I've been mentored by him for many, many years. I met him many years at a conference and that changed my life. And now I, I do a lot of work with him, you know, fulltime and, and so just, I'm not sure if he did this, but I just wanna just kind of give you a definition of healing because I think even when we talk about healing, all of us have these ideas and, and even when we talk about.

Like broken homes, that it's every, Humana, every human family has a degree of areas where love has been ruptured. And, you know, for a lot of us, and I think, I don't know about you, but I, you know, it's just sharing my story and hearing people's feedback of like their own stories. Cuz you hear so many, you get to hear the sacredness of other people's journeys.

Many times when people don't have like a major type B trauma, like the direct interruption of violation or the fragmentation of divorce or death, they have type A trauma, which is the lack of the good things that we needed. And, and all of us, we can honor our families, we can honor our parents and also be honest about the places that they're just people where they weren't perfect.

And so sometimes it's not the one catastrophic event. It's, it's not the porcupine quills or like the, the, the deep, you know, sword and the soul. It's the paper cut. For a lot of us, we just have a lot of little paper cuts, , and, and we say, oh, it's just a paper cut. It's not a big deal. But man, of those things burn and they sting.

And if you have several paper cuts on one finger, it is very painful. And we're like, oh, this is not such a big deal. So I just wanna bring that out for people's hearts of, if you're, if you're listening today and you're thinking, well, gosh, I didn't have, my parents didn't divorce, or I wasn't sexually abused, or I didn't, wasn't bullied at school.

Like I had a, you know, the, the saddest thing that happened to me is my dog died when I was nine. That's, we can kind of sit in that place and say, yeah, that's, that's true in your life. And it's not comparison. And looking at the places where maybe we don't have the catastrophic wound, the shotgun blast, but we have a lot of paper cuts and those are painful, you know?

And so I think to, when we talk about a definition of healing, so when you and I talk about this today, this is what I'm referring to. And here I'll give you a little definition of this, an experience of God's love that brings us into wholeness and communion. So an experience of God's love. That brings us into wholeness and communion.

We're not talking about fixing, we're not talking about managing, we're not talking about some like, movement in the church or like, it's, it's really honestly, in a sense, like nothing more than the daily life of an experience, not just a theoretical concept, but an experience of God's love that brings me into homeless within myself and communion with God and others.

And that's, that's what healing is. And so that's why healing takes place in our life every single day, because I don't know anybody alive who can't, you know, have need, who doesn't need an experience of homeless and communion every day and their life. I know I do. I need a lot. So, so that's kind of like when we talk about that, that's what we're talking about.

Not like, oh my gosh, you people over there, you guys really need to get it together. I'm fine. But that was my MO for a long time. But that's just our own self defenses mechanism. That makes so much sense, and thanks for that definition. It is trickier than you'd think to find a definition of healing. So I, I appreciate that.

And there's a lot of, I think, false ideas out there when it comes to healing. Mm-hmm. like, like you alluded to. And so that makes so much sense. And I wanna talk a little bit more about healing, but before I get to that, I'm curious, you touched on this a little bit, what's been maybe the biggest barrier to healing in your own life?

The biggest barrier to healing for me, I think the first thing that comes to my mind is fear. It's fear and probably shame. You know, all of us, I think, really believe in our hearts that we're the only person in the world that struggles with whatever, that we are struggling with. And if I, like you were saying, you know, if, if I told you this, you wouldn't want me, or if I told you this, you'd find me unlovable.

And, and let's be honest, we probably all had experiences where we revealed something very vulnerable in our heart, and the person on the other end just wasn't able to receive it. And they either gossiped about us or they told us we shouldn't feel that way, or they, they shamed me. And so we translate that into what we think God.

Experiences when he's with us and, and that's not how God is. And so I know my own journey every time the Lord brings me to you another layer of an experience with his love. It's very interesting to find that a lot of what surrounds that is fear of like, okay, Lord, if I open this part of my heart to you, are you still gonna be here for me?

Are you going to reject me or am I gonna, you know, change somehow or I'm gonna be unrecognizable? It's just interesting. And I think when we can be honest about that, I think when we can honest about our fears and, and name them, it dissipates the power of them. Because if I could say, name my fear of rejection, okay, Lord, I'm afraid you're gonna reject me here.

And then I can hold that up to light and say, is that true? Does God ever reject me? Like, does, is that an exp? You know? And so I think we can hold it up to tradition. We can hold that up to gospel, the gospels, we can hold that and we, we know that God doesn't do that. So I'm like, okay, Lord, this is a fear that I'm having and maybe I've hadn't experience of that, or I wanna reject myself here cuz I do that, but you're not going to reject me.

So I'm gonna press into this even though I'm afraid and I'm going to let you bring me into wholeness and c communion here. Beautiful. And that makes so much sense. I, I've even heard from young people who've said that that vulnerability that they've maybe shared with someone in their life sometimes can even be weaponized against them, which is a whole, whole new set of wounds.

And I'm sure there's so much we could talk about there. I am curious, in addition to kind of the barriers that you've struggled with, are there any other common barriers that you see that are preventing people, uh, from healing in addition to what you already mentioned? Yeah. You know, I really, I've just over the years noticed, I, when I speak about them, I call, I call them three common self defense mechanisms that arise when we start to go down these paths.

And I'll just throw them out to your, to you and just see what you think. So the first common self defense mechanism is, I've already dealt with this. I already dealt with this. I went to therapy for 15 years. I already dealt with that. I'm a grownup. I don't need, but just even. You can hear the tone of voice.

I've already dealt with that. It's like the fear of like, just look, I already, I'm over that. And we just, we don't quote unquote get over things. I really believe we move through them with Jesus because we move through the Pascal mystery and we move through them over and over and over again. And every time we move through them, if it's really of the Lord, he's gonna move it through.

He's gonna move through it with us, and he is going to bring us into his life, death, and resurrection. And it's gonna be a new layer of freedom and, and truth that comes. So whenever, and I see these in myself at times, I'm like, any of that, that kind of knee jerk reaction I've already dealt with that is, you can just hear the defensiveness in it.

So that's, that's one that I often hear. The second one that I often hear is, my parents did the best they could. It wasn't that bad, right? My parents did the best they could. It wasn't that bad. And we kind of talked about that already, but just to tell you today that your mom and dad with what they had, they did the best they could.

And that's true. And like we said, we can be honest and we can honor them. And honor who they are in our life and we can honor the authority they have over us and God giving us to them. And, and we can honor our mother and father, like I says in the 10 Commandments. And we can also be honest in the places where they hurt us, where they weren't perfect.

And this is not blaming them. This is not scratching up stuff and trying to like, you know, be full of a self pity. Part of this is none of that. And it's the same thing for those of us Catholics. When we go to confession, this is what we do in confession. We go to, we go meet the heart of Jesus and we say, Jesus, I'm a beloved son and beloved daughter, and here's the places that I've failed.

That's exactly what we do. We're honoring the truth of who we are. And we're also honest in the places where we have, like the Greek archery term, we've sin, we've missed the mark and, and we can hold both as true. So I think that's a common one. And then the third one that I often hear is if I open that door, I don't know what's gonna.

If I open that door, I might cry. I might start crying and never stop. I might destroy everything and rage. I might go down a black hole and never come back. And so, so I don't wanna open that door. It's like the proverbial closet in our house that we all have, that we stuff all the junk in and they're like, man, you open that thing, something's gonna come out.

And I haven't seen that in a long time. And let's just, let's just keep it there, you know? Mm-hmm. . But if, if the Lord is really inviting us, if it's Jesus, which we're always gonna follow Jesus. This is not me on my own trying to heal myself cuz I can't do that. But if it's really Jesus inviting me to a new layer of wholeness and communion, that means he's already provided the grace for whatever he's going to reveal.

So there's a saying that Jesus does not reveal anything. He doesn't also wish to heal. And we just get to go little by little. And so just, I think we, if we can kind of name some of those things of like, yeah, here, here I am. And I, and they almost kinda laugh at them like, oh gosh, I'm just scared to death.

That's just the truth. It's actually, I'm just scared to death or I don't know what to do and I know I need to do something, but I don't know what to do. I think that just kind of makes it more human versus like kind of this scary, nebulous darkness. Does that make sense? Totally. And I, I've seen those in my own life and with the young people that I work with through this ministry.

Every one of those, honestly. And one of the interesting things with this problem of coming from a family where your parents are divorced or that your family fell apart in a very obvious way, is that so often there's this idea in our culture, first off, that divorce actually isn't traumatic. Mm. Uh, it's so common.

Kids are resilient. They're not really affected by it. In fact, everyone's happier, everything's better, right? I mean, your parents are happier, so why aren't you happier? And um, it's such a lie because it truly is traumatic for the majority of people. And certainly there are like high conflict situations where something needed to happen for the safety of the spouse or the children.

Just acknowledge those from the outset here. But one thing I see left and right, and I've heard again and again in the 80 plus interviews that we've done at this point, is that so often there's this disconnect between the everyday struggles, the pain and the problems that I deal with today and the trauma from my past.

There's this disconnect and I think you can't heal until you make that connection. And so the idea that someone says, well, I already dealt with it, they might be thinking, well, I got through the legal proceedings. I got through that kind of the drama of that. But without even realizing, and I'm sure you see this a lot in your ministry too, without even realizing it, they're carrying this trauma with them.

That younger version of them who is so impacted by that trauma is still wounded, is still broken, still needs to be healed, needs to be loved. And so, so yeah. So I mean, each one of those problems I could talk about for a while, but that's one of them that I've no realized in particular, uh, doing this ministry.

Have you seen that as well? Where people just don't make those connections? Mm-hmm. . Oh my gosh, that's, that is so beautiful. What you just said, joy. That's so beautiful and just so true. I just wanna give you an name in on that. It's all true. Thanks. And I think that's part of why many times our relationships or the, the things we, you know, dive into as adults are so problematic for us is because there's all this unresolved trauma and all these unhealed places.

And then when we talk about trauma, trauma's just the Greek word for wound, you know? So all of us have wounds. All of us have places where love has, like St. Thomas Aquinas says, where love has been withheld or love has been withdrawn and. Those things until they come into wholeness with Christ over and over again, will, they'll just continue to play out in our life.

And I, I think even just going into the deep attachment areas of, of, you know, from the womb and just how we attach and how we view other people and how we view friendships and just like the science of attraction and kind of what are the patterns and relationships even that we find ourselves into with our friends or coworkers or if you're married a spouse.

Like those things are not random. Nothing in our life is random. And it's just been very eye opening to me over the years of seeing more and more kind of the blueprint of survival in my life. So it's like what has been the blueprint of survival in my life? For some of us, avoiding conflict, some of us it's, it's the anxious, preoccupied attachment.

We're like, oh my gosh, please don't leave me. I'll do whatever you want. It's, for some of us, it's just running away. It's, it, it's just interesting of how in our lives we've been trying to survive. And I, and we can, we can honor that and be honest about that. And then we can also say maybe, maybe there's a better way, maybe like Christ, because Jesus is the man fully alive.

Jesus has no self defense mechanisms. He has no guardedness. He has no armor, that he doesn't armor up for anything. He doesn't have any self righteousness like we do. He's not, he is totally vulnerable. I mean, like even the word, the Latin word for vulnerable means able to be wounded or means leading up to death.

Like you can feel it, like that's why it's so terrifying for us. But Jesus doesn't put up guards. He doesn't put up barriers. He doesn't lie to get himself out of hard situations. He doesn't try to impress people. I mean, he's so stunningly human. And if that's Jesus Christ, if he's teaching us what it means to be human joy, that means that he's got, he has to be able also simultaneously giving us the way to live.

If that's true, if that's really true, if what we believe is true, that means it's not just an idea or a kind of a moral kind of like thing to strive for. He is taking on our humanity and teaching us what it means to be human, and he's giving us the grace to do so, which means I don't have to live in my coping mechanisms, my survival skills the rest of my life.

I don't have to do that. Hmm. To me, like that's, I think we are shocked at the level of intimacy that Jesus wants to have with us. We're we're, it's so shocking. He's so shocking. Like we'd rather have God as a roommate, rather than a lover. It's like, because it's just so overwhelming for us. We say we, and I'm saying it to much to myself as I'm saying it to you.

We say we love Jesus, but then he wants to draw close to us. We're like, Ooh, not that close, Lord. You know? It's like, because we're terrified and He is te he is teaching us and not just teaching us. He's, he's embodied. He's, I can't even, it's the intimacy with which he's calling us into this truth of who we are.

We have no idea of who we are. It's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. Yeah. Wow. I love that. And one of the thing, one of the ways I think about healing too, is it's really a return to being fully human, like you said. Yep. And it really is as simple as that. And I think what happens with our wounds, with our trauma, it prevents us from being fully human, from being the man or the woman that we're created to be.

From reaching our full potential, from becoming the best version of ourselves, however you wanna talk about it. Mm-hmm. . Um, I think it all means the same. And I think that as a, something that all of us, like even now talking to you, like there's something burning in my heart. Like, yes, I want that, I want that, I want that.

You know? And I think all of us, like when we think about that, like, yeah, I want to be that person. I want to heal this brokenness. I wanna experience that wholeness and that communion that you mentioned, even if the brokenness doesn't fully go away, which I think is important to acknowledge because there's certainly wounds in our lives where, um, we can find, gain incredible ground mm-hmm.

but maybe it never totally goes away. And that's a really hard thing to wrestle with and not something we've really talked a lot about on this show. So I just kind of feel let to go there now. Um, anything you would say about, about that, those ones that maybe don't fully go away? Yeah, I, those are mysteries, aren't they?

Yeah, they're mysteries and I think that they are places where, We get to be very little cuz they're very humbling. And you know, I wonder, like, I just think of Lord of the Rings at the very end of the story when Frodo like, what? Ultimately, if I'm spoiling the end of Lord of the Rings, I'm very sorry, but Holy cow.

Okay, here we go. So what I just think option of Frodo, what, at the end of the story, what saves Frodo from himself? It's love and suffering. At the very end of the story when he decides to take the ring for himself, what saves him from himself is suffering in the form of goam and love in the form of Sam.

And had neither of those been there or one of those wouldn't have been there, he wouldn't have, he wouldn't have given up the ring like he would've succumbed to his own darkness. And I think sometimes, I know myself, like we look at the scars we have and we don't have to have pus infected, you know, wounds our whole life.

Like, but we will have, like Jesus arises from the dead with his wounds open and they're no longer sources of shame. Or, you know, they're not, they're things people have done to him, but Jesus is never ashamed of his wounds. And so we, our whole life, if this is not like, Lord, fix me so I can get rid of my pain and I can fear perfect, like this is coming, like we said, in the fullness of who we are as human beings.

And, and so we, on this side of heaven, we will always have tender places. And those are many times the places I see in my own heart every day where I just sit at the foot of the cross with Mary and I, I'm just little like, Lord, I can't, I see this part of me and I, I desire a deeper response. But right now, Lord, I just, I just need you to love me here.

I, I can't, and I, I just wonder joy, like at the end of our lives, It's gonna be those very places like the Goms in our life that we wanted to get rid of so many times that just kept plaguing us over and over and over again that we had to engage with over and over and over again. That through that mystery of suffering given in love will be the ultimately the things that save us.

I don't know. Beautiful. I remember a while ago listening to Aham by Father Meg Schmidtz and he was saying he was preaching on the gospel of the the Blind man where he comes to Jesus and he says, Lord, if you want to, you can make me whole. And Father Me was just breaking that down saying in that sentence and that question is implied that, Lord, if you don't want to, that will be done.

Like I accept that, which just like moves me so much like it, it like gives me the chills even talking about it right now. Cause it's just like such a beautiful like surrender and trust that like, Lord, I wanna be whole, I want this part of my life completely healed. Mm-hmm. . . But if you don't, for some reason that I maybe can't fully understand, but you know why mm-hmm.

it will be done. Mm-hmm. . And so one of the things I've learned from Father Mike is that sometimes God's only response to our pain of his presence. Mm. And that's something that I've tried to carry with me as well and suffering in my own life. That, you know, instead of maybe finding the perfect answer, it's more about finding like God in the midst of it.

Mm-hmm. , which to a lot of people that isn't very satisfying. I just wanna acknowledge that, cuz I know people listening right now. Maybe you don't believe in God or maybe you're really struggling in your relationship with God for one reason or another, and you might be thinking like, no, no, I, that doesn't satisfy me.

And we'll get into that in a second. But I think there's a, a beauty there to that surrender, that trust. I agree with you. And I, I also think that in that same line of thought, that it's suffering in communion, which is actually healing. I mean, imagine, just imagine in your story as a little boy when you're in the closet, if somebody in your life that you trusted would've come and sat with you there and just said, Hey, this is really hard and this is awful, and we can be honest about that.

And you know what? I'm not leaving you. I'm not leaving you. I'm going to be here for you. I'm gonna give you space for your emotions. I'm gonna let you cry. I'm gonna let you rage. I'm gonna let you feel sorrowful and I'm not gonna leave you. I'm gonna be here with you. And I think for all of us, if we look at the deepest sorrows, part of the prob not problem, part of this heartache is that we feel so incredibly alone there.

And that's, I was listening to a a, I was sitting in on a class for trauma experts, many, like a year or so ago, many months ago, and, and there was all these trauma experts like Belo, Vander Col, and Peter Levine, like all these people that are on the forefronts of like scientific discovery of what heals trauma biologically like in our bodies.

They were saying that it's actually communion that heals trauma, not modalities, not even, you know, internal family systems or emdr, like those are modalities. But they said ultimately what heals trauma is communion. And one of the therapists was saying that all of us have these wounds, they have these primary wounds.

But she said surrounding every wound is a secondary wound. And the secondary wound is having nobody safe to tell it, to being totally isolated. And so when we look at some of the deepest sufferings of our life, many times those are surrounded by a ring of isolation and a ring of, I'm all alone here. I have to take care of myself.

Nobody cares about me. God has forgotten me. This as good as it's gonna get. Like all those things. And those are very real places where it's like a taste of hell. It's like a taste of hell. And if that, and if that's what's true in our lives, we would do everything we could do to avoid that. And that would make sense, doesn't it?

Like who wants to sit there, but, but if God is present there, If God is present there and he's bringing about something far more than I can understand, well then that, that opens a little bit of light on something different. Hmm. Yeah. No, absolutely. No, I love that. And there's a trauma therapist of whom we refer people to, and one of the things that she's taught me is that what makes trauma, trauma is how it gets taken care of or not taken care of.

Mm-hmm. . So if you have someone there who's, like you said with you through the pain, who can just love you, just be there with you, not try to make it go away mm-hmm. , but just sit there in the brokenness and the pain with you. That makes like a ton of difference. Right. Huge difference. And uh, she tells a story of like, uh, this young man who tore his leg open, he was playing like football in a parking lot or something in a city and tore his leg open and his grandpa actually, uh, was like right there on the scene and was able to help him immediately bandage it up.

He had some medical experience from the military and. Just like bandage it up, cleaned out his wound and then went out for ice cream with him and he, to this day, that man says that was like one of the most beautiful and impactful experiences in my entire life. Something that was like really bad and painful and clearly broken.

Mm-hmm. became something that was really beautiful and bonding and something that, you know, formed him into the man he today, so, so I think, yeah, it is, you're right. That secondary wound of just being isolated, having no one to turn to is just so devastating. That's why I love the work that you do and why this ministry, why ReSTOR exists over whole is because there's all these young people.

Who are going through the trauma in their family, the, the dysfunction at home, their parents get separating or divorcing and no one's there for them. Yeah. And, and that's how I felt, you know, as a young man, like as a boy, I was like, there, there's just no one there, there's nothing for me. And so we, we were trying to change that, but I think it's a beautiful lesson to everyone listening to see that we need people in those moments to love us, to be vulnerable, to, um, and then hopefully too, um, in time we can become that for other people as well.

Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . That's, that's beautiful. And that's very true. That's very true. Yeah. Those are all such important aspects of Yeah. Coming into the fullness in these places. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I wanna shift to healing and, and we've been talking about it, but in particular, what would you say if someone came to you who was broken?

Like in the case of my audience who comes from a broken family, let's say they came up to you today and they said, sister, I'm really broken. I recognize that I want to heal, but I don't know how, how do I heal? I, I think first of all, I mean it really is true, like in the 12 steps, like the first of all is this first step is just admitting , admitting the places where, and I think for a lot of us, just admitting it is huge and.

Then I think allowing the Lord to kind of open some doors for us. Like what is even on our day to day level, like, what is our current distress? Like, what are, what are the places that we find are distressing? Is it depression? Is it we're chronically angry? Is it, uh, just a pervasive lie in our life that nobody cares about me?

And those, that's a place where the Holy Spirit starts. He starts there. So we don't have to scratch ourself and kind of figure out, I, I mean, I, I recommend a whole, like I says, I really believe in so many ways of how Jesus heals us. So I recommend a whole source of ways. We, uh, first and foremost is, is our interior life.

Like we have to cultivate with the Lord an interior life of kind of what's, what's going on within me, you know, what am I experiencing? And most of us live at St. Teresa. B or St. Benedict, uh, St. Teresa Benedict the Cross. Edith Stein says, most of us lived out. We live outside of the heart of our home. Like we live outside.

And then we're trying to say there's peace in my soul, but it's actually not. Cuz I'm living so far outside of myself, , and I think most of us live so far outside of ourselves. And so I think even just starting there of what's going on with me right now, like, what am I feeling? What is, what am I, what am I holding in my body?

You know, where am I holding tension? Do I have a chronic illness? For many years, I had an autoimmune disease and I also was diagnosed with clinical depression, and my body was screaming. I really believe our bodies screamed the things our hearts are afraid to whisper. And I had, you know, a lot of health problems.

And so I think kind of getting an assessment of like, what, what's the most pressing symptom and kind of what, you know, what, underneath that, what is, what is my heart and my body trying to tell me? I, so I, I highly recommend prayer. I recommend a daily discipline of prayer of if you're Catholic, the sacraments of going to confession regularly.

Uh, I mean, I, I've been in so many years of counseling and I believe in counseling. I believe in good counseling. There's, you know, EMDR and Internalists, all kinds of stuff. I really believe, and if it's true and good, I really believe in that. But there's nothing that can replace a good sacramental confession.

Gonna reconciliation of confessing not just the sin, but the roots of. What's happening in my heart of receiving the Eucharist, which is Christ, it's Christ himself. He is communion. And that my friends, like, there's nothing on earth that's, that's outside of this world. Like there's nothing on earth that can heal us that way.

I highly recommend Bob's book, Dr. Bob's book, be Healed. That's a very easy way of just, there's journaling questions and he has a shorter version now called Do You Wanna Be Healed? So like a book you can buy and just sit with it. Just take it little by little, step by step. If you know of somebody in your life who's a good spiritual guide of talking to somebody, of finding a good counselor.

I mean, just, there's different ways we can start little by little, but I think the first and foremost thing is just allowing the Lord to come into these places of our heart and, and starting to journey that place of honesty and then asking the Lord for the grace to be willing to, to try to, you know, to respond to his call there.

Beautiful. So many great resources and we'll make sure to list those in the, the show notes as well. And I think one of the biggest barriers for. The people that I work with, uh, when it comes to healing is that they struggle in their relationship with God. Mm-hmm. , you know, like I said, the majority of our listeners are from broken families.

And for so many of us, those barriers in the relationship with God are very real. Yeah. And they're very felt and asking God to, to heal them might in one case, seem very foreign because they don't even believe in him. Or in another case it's really difficult because of those barriers. And there's so many different things that we can talk about here, but overall to everyone listening who may not quite understand, like why, why is a relationship with God such a struggle for those of us who come from brokenness, uh, especially from broken families.

And what I would propose is that our parents represent God. You all have probably heard this, but our parents represent God. Uh, when we're young, they're the most powerful creatures that we know. Yeah. And so we tend to think, well, if they're like this, then God must be like this too. In some cases, that's probably beautiful cuz our parents are very heroic, they're virtuous and they do represent God in a very beautiful way.

Never fully, but they might represent 'em in a very beautiful way. On the flip side though, if you come from a very broken family where that wasn't the case, um, we can have very distorted images of God and which might prevent us from having any sort of a relationship with him. We might struggle with the question, you know, God, why are you allowing yes, this evil in my life to happen, or, God, why don't you make your love more obvious for me in my own life?

And so I'd love to kind of hit on each of those barriers, if, if that's okay with you, sister. The first one being, yeah. How can we untwist that extra distorted image of God that we, we have mm-hmm. . Yeah. I think what you're talking about is very real. And, and all of us have places in our life where we believe things about God that aren't true.

Every single person, like we have distortions just by living this side of heaven. All of us have distortions. We don't, you know, as St. Paul says, we see dimly now as in a mirror and we have a lot of fragmentation based on, and that what your, your statement about your parent, our parents are so important.

It's actually in the catechism that says, you know, the mother and the father represent God to the child. And that. That it's a very small and limited way and it can be distorted. Like it's that. That's like a profound statement in the catechism. And it says, but then it says at the end that nobody is father is God is Father.

There's nobody. And so I think understanding, a lot of times we find we start from our parents outward versus kind of like the outer limits of like, okay, Lord, I need you to reveal who I am or who. Who you are and who I am. And I think even naming our fears like what are some things you believe about God?

I think be very, being very honest about that, of what are some of the beliefs you have about God? And be very honest without self censoring of like, I believe God's not there for me, or that he doesn't care about me, or that he's cruel or he's sadistic, or that he just stood there and watched me watch this happen to me in my family, didn't do anything about it.

I think if we can kinda start naming even writing out what are some of the fears we have, then we can hold that up to the light about the Lord and we can see if that's true. I think this is why, you know, when we speak. So often I have youth ministers and parents and priests and like, how can we help people heal?

And I really believe, and I say this all the time, like the best gift, and I mean that in all sincerity. The best gift we can give our youth, our our, the kids we teach at school, our coworkers, our spouses, people in our pres, whatever that is, the best gift we can give them is to allow Jesus Christ to come and heal us every day.

So that means that personal, like my interior journey, and this is why our witness to each other is so profound because sometimes it's too, it feels too dangerous to start with God, but do we know somebody in our life is there at least one person in your life? Cuz God sends people into our life that you can trust.

And what is it about that person that you find so trustworthy? Maybe they're patient, maybe they're kind, maybe they're loving. And I think we can often start there. The Lord's not offended by that because he understands our woundedness. And if we can start looking at the things in, in people's lives, like where has authentic love in present in our life, where has understanding love, where has.

The truth and love and present in our life. And we can start there. It's very interesting. Even I was listening to, um, another talk by a therapy expert, and it was very interesting. He was saying that in many therapeutic models, when somebody goes on a journey of healing, and these are not Christian, okay, so I'm just throwing this out there.

But they're saying that you can, they invite the person to create in their heart a wise guide or a compassionate guide, and they say, what, what is that person like to you? And name their characteristics. And it's this person inside really listing all the characteristics of God, of saying that they're kind, they're loving to me, they're understanding.

They don't shame me. They tell me the truth when I need it. They encourage me. And, and then they'll say, what would that person say to you? Like, so if, if, if you can kind of create like a person, like in holding your heart an ideal person, a wise guide or a compassionate guide, what would that person say to you?

And I, I think it's a very interesting way of looking at the, the qualities of God when for many of us, he doesn't feel safe enough. Yeah. And, and I think what we find is, As we name those things about God, that we believe about him and he shows us the truth, and we can experience the rage, the pain, or the bitterness or whatever.

What we find is that God, we we're more receptive to the truth of, of who he is, and we see that God doesn't will bad things for us. He's not sadistic, he doesn't do that, but we all have to have a lived experience of that. So we have to know what gut says about himself, and then the experience of him toward us.

So I just kinda offer that to your heart. Those are just many different facets, but those have been really helpful, I think, along the way. Yeah, very helpful. And I think for the Catholics listening and even Evangelicals listening to, one of the things that I've found helpful is looking at scripture to say that definitely mm-hmm.

who is God actually. Mm-hmm. , you know what I mean? Because we, like you said, we have all these ideas. It's like hearing a bunch of rumors about a person that we've never actually met, we've never actually spent time with, but we're saying, oh, they're definitely like this. It's like, well, that's. Maybe we should go, you know, grab coffee with them and, and see like what are they actually like, hang out with them, get to know them in a more intimate way.

And I think a lot of those misconceptions that we have then are shattered. And another one that's been really helpful for me, and I understand this is maybe unique to us as Catholics, but the lives are the saints. Yes. Because they more than anyone really image who God is for us. Mm-hmm. . And so kind of seeing that in a more maybe modern or contemporary way, we're able to see oh, okay, like pure Georgia for society.

Like that's what God's like, I, I'm able to see kind of glimpses of him through, uh, the lives of the saint. So, and then again, taking that and comparing it to what we might think or believe on an even unconscious level, it can be really powerful. I, I totally agree with you. And I think that's been one of the most healing aspects of the gospels I know for me is just seeing and learning that Jesus never once in any of the gospels shames any of the sinners.

Never once, whether it's a woman con adultery, he doesn't shame Peter for his denial. He doesn't shame the people who are broken. He doesn't shame the lepers. He doesn't shame the man born blind. He doesn't, he doesn't shame any of the people in the gospel who need healing. Never. He tells 'em the truth.

Like, you know, when the woman at the wall says, you know, I don't have a husband, and he loves her, and he says, I know you've had five husbands and the man you're with now is not your husband. He's telling her the truth and love because he's Lansing the wound of lust. He's laning the wound and allowing the PU to come out so the wound can be healed.

But he's not shaming her the way other people have shamed her. She's at the well at noon because she's been shamed and she holds a lot of interior shame. So I think that for me of when I f Oh, I'm afraid Jesus is gonna shame me for like something new I discover in my heart, I'm like, oh, actually no, it's not true.

I can, I can hold that as a fear and say, Jesus, I'm afraid you're gonna shame me here. And I can hold that simultaneously with the truth that Jesus never shames the sinner ever. That's beautiful. And even that tactic you just said right now, I think a lot of people won't go there like telling that two Jesus, like in prayer.

That's a challenge for everyone listening right now. Like if you feel the in sync to pull away and to not talk to him about that. Push against that. Yeah. Like push against that strongly and tell them like, Hey, tell him this is what I'm feeling, this is what I'm experiencing. I think that's a great tactic as well.

I wanna turn to this question that so many of us struggle with, whether we come from broken families or not, but I know, especially for me, one question I've asked God for a long time, and I found a lot of like answers to this, but I wanna just tease this out that, God, when my family is falling apart, when everything was so painful in my life, like where were you?

Like why were you allowing this to happen? What would you say to someone struggling with that question right now? Mm-hmm. . Gosh, I think, I think anybody on planet Earth who's ever even halfway thought about their own life or the lives of somebody else has thought that. I think every single person. Just we look at our life and say, if God is so good, if, if that's true, then why is he allowing this to happen?

Or if it's not something that I'm personally experiencing, it's a suffering of other people. So like that's been the transcend, like the, the transcendent question from generation generation of, if God is so good, why is there suffering? And I think I, I just, there's been so many people that much holier and smarter than me who have talked about this, but I, I, I guess just to offer, cuz I've struggled in that my own life.

And there's not a, there's, there's no reason why we can't ask that question. And we can ask that question all we want. But ultimately I think intellectual answers are only gonna get us so far. I think allowing the Lord to show us an experience of where he was in those memories and. Many times I've had, I've sat with the memories in Jesus, you know, with Jesus and those memories.

And I've, I've seen him, or if I couldn't see him, I would experience him and understanding that Christ is more present to me than I am to myself, and that he can't ever leave me. I think that's one of the most beautiful things about our faith, is that it's a proclamation that I'm never alone. That I am never alone, that other people have abandoned me or rejected whatever that is in our life.

But God cannot leave us. He can't. He cannot. Psalm 1 39, the Lord can't leave us. He can't leave us. So that means he's with me. And if he's with me, that means there's something much deeper happening and, and I think, you know, we can ask why. And I think sometimes in life, You know, every now and then we'll get kind of a thread of a glimmer of like, well, if this wouldn't have happened, then this wouldn't have happened.

And you know, it's the saying that our gift and our wo our gift and our wound like side by side. So the places where the enemy has come, Satan has come to destroy us cuz we have an enemy. And the places where he's gone after us are the very places where the Lord is restoring. Where the Lord has broken our heart so deeply.

He's a, allow our hearts to be broken so deeply that we love in a way that would've never existed otherwise. And so there's a, there's a ity there in the mystery of suffering. And Father Jacque, Felipe, you know, and I know a lot of spiritual masters, father Jacque Felipe is one of them, but many spiritual masters throughout the ages have said, ultimately the question that we're not gonna ask ourselves is why.

I mean, you can only get, but the question really ultimately wanna ask ourselves is how will I respond now? Like, how will I respond now? So, Lord, show me where you are, Lord. What is your desire for me now? Like what you know, so I think, I think. Because sometimes we can get hung up on that question. And it's like, I, I, I hear my own heart when that question comes up, a lot of grief and a lot of rage, and that's okay, that's okay.

But in that place of, ultimately, I'm not really looking for an intellectual answer. I'm looking for a person. And I think that like Frodo at the end, I think all of us, when we leave this time of chronological time, like we all will, one day all of us will take our last breath on this earth and we will see God face to face and we will finally see as we are seen and know as we are known and love as we are loved.

I really believe, like, like CS Lewis writes, and, and until we have faces that we will behold the face of God. And I think our only response is gonna be, oh,

right, right. Okay. Yes. It could not have ever happened another way. Like, oh, okay. Just like, I think we're gonna be stunned at like the interweaving of everything that happened in our life of the intricacy, which with God wove our life, what the enemy meant for destruction. Where the Lord's like, Nope, the.

And it turned out in a way different than we thought. But the masterpiece that has arisen will be stunning to behold. I just, cuz he's a divine artist. I don't know. I just, yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. No, thank you. And for me personally, going back to, you know, that 11 year old I, for years, through a lot of prayer, through a lot of spiritual direction, wrestled with that question like, God, where were you?

Yeah. Where were you? Cause honestly, I felt like he was just sitting on the sidelines watching me. Mm-hmm. , get my teeth kicked in. Mm-hmm. . So like, God, like, where were you? And through, again, a lot of prayer didn't come easy, a lot of spiritual direction. I realized that he was actually right there with me in the midst of it.

Like he was with that 11 year old boy sitting next to me in the closet, like crying with me too. Saying like, I don't want it to be this way. It wasn't meant to be this way, but it, it has to be right now because I respect human freedom so much. And so, like I mentioned before, One of the things for me that's been really beautiful is realizing that, you know, sometimes God's only response to our pain is his presence.

Like Father me Schmitt said, and I think there's a lot of beauty in that. I invite everyone to wrestle with that question and, and really, um, meditate on it, pray with it, thinking like, okay, where is God in the midst of my suffering? And how can I, instead of pushing him away, which is my next question, how can I then hold onto him in the midst of it and see how that goes?

I know for me, like I've, I've always, or for a lot of time in my life, I would push him away as like the default. But what if you tried the opposite? What might happen? Maybe just experiment. Mm-hmm. , see, see what happens. Mm-hmm. . But getting to that point on kind of pushing God away. How can, how can we stop that?

How can we stop pushing God away? How can we stop running from him and instead embrace him mm-hmm. and hold onto him in the midst of those instances. I, I think being honest when we do that, of even when the temptation arises, of being very honest and saying, Lord, I wanna push you away right now. I want to self protect.

I want to run away. I don't wanna face this. I, I think that just being honest of, of the temptation to do that. And then if we can allow the Lord to bring up the deeper root, well, what, what am I afraid of? I'm, I'm, I'm a big fan of like, following the, following it down to its route. What am I afraid of? Like, am I afraid I'm gonna be rejected?

Am I afraid that it's too messy? Am I afraid that I'm a burden? Because those things are telling us stories and the stories we believe about ourselves. So what is it like, why do I wanna push God away? And why, you know, why, what is, what is the fear behind it? And we might find that in different days as different reasons.

It's very interesting. And then if we can just sit with that place of not, not minimize it. Just say, Lord, I, I am whatever. Say, say I'm ashamed. Like I'm ashamed of this struggle that I'm having Lord, and I'm afraid you're tired of it and you're disappointed in me and I, and if we can just kind of sit there and say, Lord, What is the truth here?

You know, I think this is, might be surprising to you, but one of my biggest deliverances from addiction was being able to sit in the places where I felt disappointed, where I just had to sit at my desk many times and say, you know what? I feel really disappointed right now and I'm really sad that that person did that.

Or, I'm really sad that that didn't go the way I wanted. And I can feel it in my body. I can feel in my heart. I don't have to do anything about it. like I don't. But I just, to name it and say, Lord, be with me here. Jesus. I'm feeling really disappointed, like, please be with me here and I, that that's the kind of honesty, more and more that helps get, it just gets everything out into the light.

I think when we start practicing that, I really believe this St. Paul says, pray without ceasing. He's not just talking about the rote prayers that we learned, say as Catholics or Christians. He's talking about the interactions of our life with the Lord of like, Lord, I wanna run away, or, Lord I'm feeling anxious, or, Lord, I don't like what I'm feeling.

I don't wanna feel this in my body. Lord Jesus, just help me. Come Holy Spirit and I, it's those little things that have the power to dramatically transform our lives. So then we don't live by ourselves anymore, that we're in constant communication with the one who, who so deeply loves us. Beautiful. And I think in our culture today, there's this constant desire for comfort.

And so I think we don't really know what it's like to sit in those difficult emotions and like you, that's been actually really healing for me. Mm-hmm. and in a way that you wouldn't expect, right? Yep. That, you know, I remember one of my mentors just after going through a rough breakup, um, it wasn't traumatic, it was just a difficult thing to go through for me.

And, um, I remember him like challenging me. He was like, you know, in the midst of that emptiness, in the midst of that pain, like, don't push it away. Don't run from it. Don't hide from it, but like, sit in it and invite God into it because he said that's actually where he wants to meet you in the midst of that.

And that was, that was really helpful and healing for me. One final barrier I wanted to touch on, wish I could spend all day with you, but we gotta, um, close, close this down. I, this is, I'll just be vulnerable with everyone here. Sometimes I feel like God, his love for me isn't as obvious as I wish it would be.

And I, uh, have a one year old daughter at this point, and I thought becoming a father would actually like, kind of automatically bring me closer to God. Mm-hmm. . But it's actually presented some problems and it's something I'm working through with my spiritual director and I, I've made some progress on this.

Yeah. But it's just something that I, I, here's the struggle when I wanna make my daughter feel loved. There's very simple ways I can do that. I can pick her up and like hug her and tell her, I love you, Lucy. I can play with her. I can take her to the park. I can like very clearly tell her like, I love you.

Like, make it so obvious that there's no doubt. Right. And that's where like the struggle for me has been like, well God, I really wish you would do the same for me. I really would wish you would make your love like, very obvious for me. And so, like part of me is like, well, you're just such. Hypocrite or you're, you're, he's done a lot for you already.

Right? He's died in the cross. And, but my knee jerk reaction is like, well, right. That was beautiful and I'm grateful for that. That was 2000 years ago. And then on the flip side, it's like, well, the Eucharist, like everything he's done for you in Eucharist, like, yeah, no, the Eucharist is really beautiful, but it's super veiled.

It sound very obvious in a lot of ways. So, um, it's something I, I'm working through again, but it's, um, I think a struggle for a lot of people. It's like, God, why, why don't you make your love more obvious for me? Why, why do I have to seek it so much? So I know that's a big question, but I'm curious, uh, what would you respond to that if someone came to you with that question?

Well, first of all, I'm just hearing your heart joy. I'm just hearing your heart and just think about your little girl and just what a lovely gift she is to your heart. I, I just, and just your ability to, and maybe in many ways, maybe when even your dad wasn't able to show you love the way that you get to show her love, like you get to.

Have this corrective experience of kindness, of attending to her heart, of knowing your heart now so well, that you can attend to hers and be attuned to her and, and just the gift of, of her and your life and the gift that you are to her. And I, and I, I think all of us have asked that question many times.

It just seems like God is absent, you know? And it's kind of like, here we are on this earth. Or without a father, we're orphans or like we want, and I don't think there's anything wrong at all about voicing those places of our heart to the Lord and just asking the Lord, Lord, show me. Show me where you're loving me.

Show me where you're loving me. And, and yes, like if, if physically like God sends us people, like one of the ways God reveals his love is he sends us people. Like that's why this, this road of healing is so serious for all of us is because we become living instruments of love for others. And so God often will reveal his love through the gift of others and through the gift of creation and beauty and like you said, the sacraments and, and sometimes, but like there's places in our heart, we just want God to come pick us up.

like, dad picked me up. I just need to be, I know I'm a grownup, but I need to be picked up right now. I feel like a little kid and there is absolutely nothing wrong with voicing that to the Lord. And I, I know in my own heart when I experience the same thing as you, joy, like I just like Jesus. Show me I'm so aching right now and I wanna believe the lie that you don't care about me or that.

I'm ungrateful, but I'm just really aching and I just, I just need you to pick me up. I just need you to show me how you're loving me, cuz I know you do so I just need that. I need you to do that for me and just see what happens and just see what happens. And also it does, it challenges some of the beliefs we have about God, like we said, of those are old stories many times.

And, and the Lord he doesn't, he's not sadistic, he does no violence to our human nature. So He doesn't expect us to be angels. We're not angels, we're humans. We're a union of soul and body. We're a hypomorphic union. And so the Lord is attending to us in both ways, both naturally and supernaturally. And I, I'm like, okay, Jesus, show me, show me how you're loving me cuz I know you're not cruel.

So show me how you're loving me cuz I really need that right now. No, that's beautiful. And just to kind of close the loop on that with my story, I don't wanna leave everyone hanging. There's been a lot of progress Yeah. On that end for me too. And I remember just like really wrestling with this question, I was like on a walk with my daughter Lucy, and we were going to adoration, there's iteration chapel not far from here.

And I just remember just like really being like, God, like I want your love for me to be more obvious. Kind of like I love my daughter and I, I like, it's so arrogant of me to think that I could be a better father than you, you know? Cuz I'm not. I know that my phone like malfunctioned. I had my earphones and I was like listening to some, like literally, I don't know how this happened.

Like, and I'm a tech guy, so I like understand this stuff pretty well. Literally like malfunction, like the song came on that I hadn't heard for years, like years wasn't on my like playlist, nothing like that. And uh, and it was like exactly what I needed to hear in that moment. It, it was like a Christian song.

So, but it was literally like God, like saying, Hey, this is what I wanna say to you. And it brought me to tears and I don't cry easily. Yeah. Like, so. Um, so that was beautiful. So he has kind of like broken through a lot of that. But the second thing I've learned is so often, like he actually wants to make his love more obvious to me, but I'm the one who's stopping it from happening.

Oh yes. I get in the way. So . So it's like, okay, I need to, you know, as if my daughter were to like kind of continually run from me or hide, it's like, well then I couldn't make my love obvious to her. Yeah. So those are a few things that I've realized a lot. Oh, that's such wisdom. And I love, oh, I love that.

So beautiful. Yeah. Thank you. And in the end of our time together, sister, again, I wish I could talk with you the whole day, but uh, yeah. I guess what are some of the results you've seen in people's lives and your own perhaps when they go to God for healing? What are some of the, the beautiful things that you've seen, the transformations you've witnessed?

I know you've seen a lot of them, so I think it would be good for people who'd never hear this sort of thing. What, what are those transformations? To me, I see the manifestation that love is real. I see people becoming more human and more humble and more kind and, and stronger and more loving and more honest and able to receive the brokenness of others without pushing them away or without engaging in decades long struggle.

Those things come to an end and maybe the other person, the situation hasn't changed, but you have. and there's real freedom that happens. There's deliverance from our coping mechanisms of addiction. There's deliverance from unforgiveness and hatred and self hatred and self contempt and self destruction.

And it's coming to the places of, of being naked without shame, really. You know? And you see Jesus, who you know, like Adam, and ever naked in the garden without shame. And then you see shame enters in and you see Christ. He's crucified and he's naked. Christ is naked on the cross, and he's stripped and he's a bride, groom, pierce for the bride, completely vulnerable, completely powerless.

And he's there without shame. And he's bringing us into the truth of, of what it means to be human. And our hearts grow and become more like him. And that I, I really believe joy. Like I really believe that kind of holiness, that can't be faked. Like there's a lot of things in life we can fake. But we cannot fake an intimate relationship with Christ because it just is radi.

It radiates from us. And I have seen it happen in my own life. I've seen it happen in lives of other people. I believe in the authentic power of love. I believe in it. I believe in it, and I will never stop speaking of that because it's so powerful and it's just so true. And I, it's true. It's the most eternal thing that love heals and that's what God does.

That's what he do. That's what he does, and that's eternal truth. Beautiful. I love it. One, uh, resource that I would recommend for healing is your book. Loved As I Am. Mm-hmm. . Will you tell us a little bit about like why did you write it and what's in the book and what do you want for people who, who read it?

Sure. Yeah. That was a book that I wrote about 10 years ago and I was approached by Avin Maria Press and they, they said, Hey, you know, we've seen some of YouTube videos. Can you tell us your story? And I wrote kind of more of an academic treatise on the catechism. And they're like, well, that's really great, but we really actually want

We want more of your story. So it's an interweaving of what it means to be human, of theology of the body of my own story. It's got reflection questions in it, discussion questions, and it's small on purpose. And my heart, when I wrote it all those years ago, and to this day, is when you close the book, you say, Okay.

I want, I want to get honest about this part of my life, or, okay. I, I want to dive a little bit more deeply into this. I might be afraid, but I, and so just a little tiny invitation unto more. And since then I've wrote two, I've written two more books. One of last l called Restore, and then one of this advent called Behold.

And it's about healing with your families, about healing with your mom, with your dad, you as a child. And, and so it just like forgiveness, all those things. And so just giving people resources, I really just want just be a gentle guide of just gonna take your hand gently and lead you along this path if you wanna come.

And if you need to sit down, we'll sit down and we'll rest together. Well, you know, and just to let the Lord come and find you. And that's, yeah, that's my deepest desire for all of. Beautiful. And is behold the one about the mother, father? It is relationships and healing. Mm-hmm. . Okay. Cause I think that's very relevant to our audience.

Yeah. And so I'll be actually walking through that, this, this advent with people. So Advent is, you know, the, the, the Sundays we celebrate up until the Christmas season. So if you go to the Avan Maria Press Instagram account, I'll be doing some Instagram lives and things like that. Um, just walking with a book, and you can do the book by yourself.

There's videos that come out every Sunday that are free from a Maria press that will kind of give you an overview of the week. And you can do it by yourself. You can do it with your parish community, your small group, whatever that is. Just to, yeah. To allow you to encounter deeper healing in your heart with the, the main people in your life.

And just to let Jesus bring you home in his holy family. This, uh, advent, which is, I, I love the holy family. They're so beautiful and so wonderful and they have so much for us and we're always welcome at their. A lot of us needed to hear that. So thank you so much. Thank you for coming on the show, for taking so much time with us.

Um, how can people follow you if they wanna know more? I know you mentioned the AER Press, but, and their Instagram page. Is there other places that people can follow you? A co-host, a podcast called Abiding Together, and so you can check us out on Instagram or Facebook or our website, abiding together podcast.com.

Um, I'm also on Twitter at one. Groovy, none . I don't, I'm not, I'm not personally on any other social media account. If you wanna know about my, about my religious community, you can check out so lt.net, that's the Society of Our Lady of the Most Holy trinity solt.net. And um, yeah, you'll find different things on YouTube that people post.

So there's many different resources. Yeah, all the books are available on Amazon too, so. Sounds awesome. I love your handle, by the way, . They're like, are you old enough or groovy? I'm like, I'm probably not . Well, sister, thank you again. I wanna give you the final word, and the question is as what encouragement would you give to anyone listening right now who feels stuck?

Who feels broken? Because of the wounds in their life, but especially because of their broken family and their parents' broken marriage. Uh, what, what encouragement would you give to them? Mm, I would tell you that, I'm sorry. Those things, um, have happened to you, are happening to you. It's not fair and it's not right.

And I'm sorry. And I wanna tell you that this is not the end of the story. This is not the end that we are not the Saint John Paul II says, we are not a summation of our faults or our failures or what other people have done or what they've done to us. That is not the summation of who we are. We. So some of the father's love for us, and I just wanna invite you on this journey.

It's worth it. It's not easy, but it's so worth it. And yeah, that we are never alone. Oh gosh. We are never, we are never alone. And so just to encourage you on yeah, on the journey of love, because it matters and you matter.

There's so much in that episode to unpack, but I wanna leave you with a few, uh, questions to reflect on, to think about. One is, what's holding you back from believing in God? So if you don't believe in God, what's holding you back from actually believing in him? What's standing in the way of having a relationship with God?

So maybe you do believe in him, but you don't have a great relationship with him, or it's a big struggle, what's standing in the way. And then finally, what's preventing you from asking God to heal you And actually letting him do that. Give those questions some thought, and I even challenge you to, to talk to God about those things with no filter and just see what happens.

As a reminder, if you wanna buy the book, it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents divorce, you can buy that on Amazon or go to restore ministry.com/books or just click the link in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them.

Always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

#083: 3 Steps to Navigate Your Broken Family During the Holidays | Margaret Vasquez

If you’re from a broken family, you don’t need anyone to tell you how stressful, depressing, or just plain difficult the holidays can be. If you can relate, this episode is for you.

In it, we offer:

• 3 steps to plan the holidays, so you can reduce the drama and actually enjoy them

• Advice from a former trauma therapist on how to deal with your difficult emotions this time of the year, so they don’t control you and you don’t act out in unhealthy ways

• Resources to help you cope, heal, and grow from the trauma of your broken family

Apply for coaching with Margaret 

Join Restored’s community

10 Questions

1. When will you spend time with each parent, if possible?

2. Who can you ask to be your swim buddy?

3. What three things should you do to take care of yourself?

4. What healthy distractions can you use in intense situations?

5. What predictable circumstances will come up and what can you say or do in them?

6. What expectations and boundaries need to be set?

7. If you can’t be with your family, what can you do to experience some sort of community instead of your family? 

8. When and how will you communicate the plan?

9. What can you say to lead with your intention?

10. What’s your plan to respond if mom or dad gets upset?

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Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Margaret Vasquez

  • Episode 37: Trauma: What It Is and How It Damages You | Margaret Vasquez

  • Episode 63: The Antidote to Trauma | Margaret Vasquez

• Archive of Holiday Episodes

  • Episode 4: 7 Tips to Navigate the Holidays for Children of Divorce

  • Episode 32: How to Navigate the Holidays: Advice from 11 Children of Divorce

  • Episode 59: From a Broken Family? 9 Tactics to Navigate the Holidays

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you're from a broken family, you don't need me to tell you how stressful, even depressing, or just plain difficult the holidays can be. And if you can relate to that, this episode is for you. In it, we offer three steps to plan the holidays so you can reduce the drama and actually enjoy them. And this advice, by the way, is based on my team and I listening to hundreds of people from broken families, and also it's based on years of doing it ourselves.

We come from broken families ourselves, my team and I. And so we've done this ourselves and we've learned a lot of lessons along the way. And then finally, we pull on resources that we've built in the past for you guys on this topic. We continue to refine that content to make it better, uh, more useful, more helpful for you.

You're also gonna hear advice from a former trauma therapist and how to deal with your difficult emotions this time of the year, so they don't control you and you don't act out in unhealthy ways that are gonna hurt you or maybe that you'll later regret. And she even touches on things like how to more easily identify what you're feeling, which is more difficult than it sounds, so that you can properly respond and take care of yourself.

And she offers some practical tactics that you can use, like how sparkling water can actually trigger serotonin release and actually help you to feel good during this difficult season. And then finally, we offer some resources to help you cope, heal, and grow from the trauma of your broken family, especially during this holiday season.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the Restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation, or broken marriage so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pinelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 80. If you're from a broken family and you feel alone, or maybe you're looking for support stores, online community is for you.

Our community offers a safe place for you to speak openly about the pain and the problems that you face. It also helps you not feel so alone because you're surrounded by people in our community, who've been through what you've been through, their parents divorced or separation, or maybe just really broken marriage and really get you, and then you'll be challenged to grow into a better, stronger person.

So if you wanna join our online community, it's really easy to do. It's three steps. Just go to restored ministry.com/community. Again, restored ministry ministry singular.com/community. Just fill out the quick form on that page, and then we'll add you to the group. Again, go to restored ministry.com/community, or just click on the link in the show.

So this show has actually broken into two main segments and segment two. My guest is Margaret Vasquez, the former trauma therapist that I mentioned, who is gonna talk about navigating the emotional side of the holidays. Now, before we get into that, I'm gonna touch on the logistical or the planning side of the holidays, but I wanted to introduce Margaret first.

After over 15 plus years treating trauma clients of all ages, presenting to a wide variety of groups in person and through guest appearances on e w, TN radio shows and podcasts. Margaret began her coaching and consulting practice and presenting workshops and retreats to religious priests, deacons, and lay people online.

And in person. And Margaret, you might remember, she's been a guest on the show in episodes 37 and 63, and at this point, I can't say much, but you'll be hearing from Margaret much more in the future. There's really exciting things ahead here at ReSTOR. I'm excited to share those with you. In the time comes, just make sure to stay tuned.

But before we get to Margaret, I'm gonna offer some advice for planning the holidays. All right, so diving into the planning portion, the logistical portion, I want you to imagine you and me just sitting down in front of a fire, maybe having a drink. Okay? Just me as your brother, kind of sharing what we've learned along the way.

What's helpful when it comes to navigating the holidays from a broken family? And there are basically two ways to navigate the holidays. If you're from a broken family, you can do it reactively. Or you can do it proactively, and you can think of it this way. You can be a firefighter that fights fires as they start.

As they arise. That's being reactive. It's one way to solve problems. It can be effective, but it's a lot more stressful and it's more dangerous and you can get hurt or you can be a fire prevention pro that prevents fires from happening in the first place. And if they do, has a plan or a system in place to deal with those fires to stop them from spreading.

You can think of a sprinkler system or maybe fire extinguishers in a building, and that's being proactive, right? It does take more work on the front end, but it's less stressful and less dangerous in the end, and there's a better chance that you won't get hurt. Now you get to choose when it comes to the holidays, do you want to be react?

Or proactive and the steps I'm about to offer you. The tips within these steps as well is gonna help you to be proactive. By the way, these tips, these steps are not complicated. They're simple, but they're not easy to do. And so often we just don't do them. And by choosing to avoid that discomfort of being proactive, all it takes to be proactive, we automatically settle for the drama and the tension that come with being reactive with our families during the holidays.

And so I hope that this plan, that these steps really help you to be proactive. Do it this in simple ways. It doesn't need to take a lot of time, but it's then gonna make your whole holiday season and your whole interactions with your families much better. So the first step is very simple. Again, make a plan.

Make a plan. But what should that plan include? The first thing I'd. Make sure you have time set aside for each parent in advance. This is assume you're gonna be in the same area as both of your parents. So for example, let's say on Christmas Eve you spend time with dad and then on Christmas day you're spending time with mom.

And the benefits of spending time on separate days are one. It allows you to really focus on each parent without hopefully worrying about the other parent. It also gives mom and dad some assurance in advance that they're gonna get time with you, uninterrupted time with you, and then also you could just avoid burning out.

It can be exhausting, especially in a single day, trying to navigate both mom and dad and perhaps both of their families as well. And so that's, uh, super helpful to make sure you set time in advance for each of your parents to spend with each of them. Your plan should also include not doing it alone. So basically what I mean by this is if you have siblings, involve them in the planning, make a plan together, be a team, and you can do this really simply by just starting a group chat or maybe doing a video call with your siblings or even a phone call and just.

Ask some questions to get the discussion going. You can ask them, you know, Hey, what are your plans for the holiday? And they might not have any. But then together you can make those plans. And if those relationships are tense, then make sure to just keep it simple, right? You don't need to go into a ton of detail, just got a basic plan together.

And if those relationships with your siblings are perhaps toxic, then I totally understand you won't be able to do much with your siblings, and that's okay. And I'm sorry you're in that situation. But if you can involve them, make sure to do it and it'll make the planning go a lot better as part of not doing it alone too.

You need to get a swim buddy. What do I mean by this? During buds, BUDS stands for basic Underwater Demolition Seal training. It's, uh, the training that Navy seals go through one of the initial trainings to become seals. They're assigned a swim buddy and basically a swim buddy is where you. And another trainee are teammates to look after each other.

You support each other. You literally swim together and make sure the other is okay, that you're not drowning, that you're not struggling in some way. And so Margaret is gonna touch on this a little bit further in this episode, but this is really important to have just someone, a friend, likely or maybe a mentor, that you could check in with from time to time if things get difficult, especially who can just kind of be there for you, who can look out for you, someone you can, you know, lean on in a healthy way to support you through this season.

And then finally, plan some fun with your friends. When it comes to doing this planning alone, make sure you put your friends in the plan. While it's really good to spend time with your parents, you wanna make sure that you're blocking out some time to spend with your friends too. And I think so often what happens for those of us who come from broken families is since we're spending time with both of our parents separately, and that could be so time consuming, our other relationships often suffer.

I've seen this a lot with my friendships and so do what you can to really plan some time with those other people that you'd like to see as well. It might take some extra effort, by the way, but, But what I've learned is it's totally worth it. I'm always grateful that I make an effort to see some of my friends, even if it's difficult to fit them in between navigating, you know, my relationship with mom and dad, making sure we're spending time with both of them.

And last year, I think it was last year, my wife, Bridget and I, we took our daughter Lucy to see our friends, Peter and Annie and Louis and Victoria. And it was awesome. It was a really good time. We were staying with my mom and it was like an hour or more drive to see them one way. So, you know, we're driving two, two and a half hours to spend time with them.

But it was awesome. We. Dinner together, and we just had a great time together and I was really glad that I made time to see my friends. So don't do it alone. Involve your siblings. Get a swim buddy, and then plan some fun with your friends. The next thing that should be included in your plan is just taking care of yourself.

Again, Margaret's gonna touch on this a little bit further. But this is super important not to neglect yourself during this time. It's almost like being an athlete who has a big game that they're preparing for, or, or maybe they're in the midst of, like during that time, you have to take care of yourself, otherwise you're not gonna be able to perform, uh, at your peak.

You're not gonna be able to navigate the difficult waters, um, as well as you could if you were kind of in a healthy good spot. And so some really basic things you can do to take care of yourself is just make sure you're sleeping enough and try to get good quality sleep too. Make sure you're drinking enough water.

So it kind of depends. I've asked doctors this question like, how much water should you be drinking? It kind of varies per person, like how active you are and perhaps where you live too. But what I've gathered is you basically wanna drink half a gallon to a gallon of water each day. Again, half a gallon to a gallon of water each day.

I'm sorry, I don't know the conversion in leaders for, uh, non-US listeners. I apologize about that. But, um, you can do. So make sure to drink enough water that's really gonna help you, help your mind, stay clear, sharp, and also to help your body feel energized and rested. Get some exercise in too, and it doesn't need to be something super intense.

Margaret and I will discuss this a little bit, but just moving your body can be really, really helpful and help you to feel good. It can release endorphins to where it will make you feel really good. Another thing you could do to take care of yourself is just eating food that's good for you. And if you're religious as well, make sure that you're praying.

And then there's other things too of, you know, maybe reading good books or playing games, keeping your mind sharp and keeping it relaxed as well. And then, of course, like I mentioned already, spending some time with friends too. Those could all be things that you do, uh, to take care of yourself. And you can fill in the blanks too, like what does it take for you to take care of yourself?

What would it look like to kind of be in this a good spot, even though maybe you're going into a tense or dramatic situation with your family? Another part of taking care of yourself is having healthy distractions. So like healthy coping mechanisms basically. And if you're constantly in situations or, or with people maybe that drain you, it's really important to have a way to kind of revive yourself.

And again, Margaret and I are gonna discuss this further, but the basic idea is to do things that are good for you and that give you life. So that might mean playing games with your siblings. I know for me it does playing sports as well. It's always something that gives me life. Watching good movies. I love movies.

And so watching a good movie can really give me life and help me to relax a bit. And then also having good conversations with my friends. It's always something I really look forward to, as well as some other things that really do give me life. And by the way, if you're at a party, maybe a family party, a healthy distraction might look like going for a walk or maybe hanging out in another room, taking a break from some of the conversations you're having.

So just have all these little things. In your back pocket that you can pull out. So you don't need to think about it too much in the midst of those situations. And then finally, taking care of yourself can look like avoiding isolation too. While it's good to have some alone time, it can be taken really to an unhealthy level, and I'm sure we've all been there.

I know I've struggled with loneliness in my past, and so make sure you're not isolating yourself as a way to hide. And if you spent the majority of the holidays or last few days on your own, you know, without talking to your friends in person or maybe over the phone or even messaging them, uh, you're likely isolating yourself.

And one thing I should say too, is you can even feel really lonely if you are messaging people. And so it's really good to have like that face time with each other, whether that's over a call, but ideally it's gonna be in person as well. And so make sure you're, you're doing that stuff, even if you don't totally feel like it, it's really good to push yourself through that and not isolate yourself, but spend time with people who are good for you, who respect you, who love you, and who can give you a little bit of life.

And if you feel lonely, by the way, that's a sign that you're perhaps isolated and that you need to do something about it. And so make sure to reach out to friends or maybe your siblings or, uh, some relatives that you can spend some time with again, to avoid that isolation, which can be really detrimental during this time of.

So those are some basic tips to take care of yourself. Another thing I would say your plan should include is prepare for predictable circumstances. What I mean by this is it could be, you know, mom or dad bringing a new partner to a family party. It can be an overbearing relative or maybe one of your parents badmouthing the other.

And if these things kind of tend to happen, you kind of know, well, this is probably gonna happen. Uh, you can prepare what you wanna say, what you want to do, or maybe how you can avoid the situation altogether. For example, when dad introduces his new girlfriend, maybe you can say, Hi, I'm Joey. You don't need to say, Hey, it's great to meet you, or a pleasure to meet you if you're not in that spot yet.

You shouldn't have to force your feelings or be overly polite. You know, you should be cordial and diplomatic. Um, but you could plan something kind of generic to say like that and just keep the conversation on the surface level. You don't need to go super deep. That's one way to plan ahead for these kind of predictable circumstances.

Another way is, let's say that overbearing relative starts pestering you with questions. You can say something like, Hey, I'm sorry, I need to run to the bathroom. You know, kind of get yourself outta that situation and hopefully not be cornered again. And then finally you can say, you know, when mom starts badmouthing dad, for example, you can get up and go sit with someone else or, and you could do it politely, excuse yourself.

Hey, hey, I'm sorry, I'm gonna go, you know, help out in the kitchen. I'm gonna go play with my cousins, whatever. And again, all of this comes down to thinking ahead, thinking about, well, this happened last year. It's happened the last few years. This is likely to happen again. And not being taken by surprise with that, right?

Think through like, Okay, how am I gonna deal with. Again, this doesn't need to be complicated. Just give it a little bit of thought so you're not taken by surprise. And if you do that little bit of prep work, just thinking ahead, planning about what you wanna say, what you wanna do, how you wanna avoid these situations, it can go really far to prepare for those predictable circumstances.

Another thing that your plan needs to include is expectations and boundaries. So the main idea behind really all of these tips and these three steps I'm offering you is really the idea of setting expectations for you and for your parents. And in other words, to set boundaries that tell everyone involved kind of the rules of engagement for interacting with you.

And they might sound kind of extra, but that's not the case. Okay? Because boundaries really communicate to others what is allowed and what isn't allowed. And setting the days and times that you'll spend with mom and dad, for example, is a good basic way to set those boundaries. And by the way, don't feel guilty for setting boundaries if you're not used to setting boundaries.

It might feel kind of mean, but, but I can assure you it's not. Boundaries are a sign of a healthy person. Boundaries are a sign of a healthy person. And imagine not having boundaries. Imagine you let anyone do anything that they wanted to you like that would be ridiculous. It would be extremely unhealthy for you.

And for them, and it would end really badly for everyone involved. And so boundaries are necessary to be a healthy and whole person, which I think we all want. And further than that, boundaries are actually really good for you and for your relationships. For example, it's good that my wife and I have some time to ourselves, some alone time.

It's good that you and your parents have some time to yourselves as well. It isn't mean it's just healthy. It's it's normal human behavior. And also boundaries really help you to take care of yourself, like I mentioned too. And if you really wanna love people, well, if you wanna be, again, that healthy and whole person, if you wanna have great relationships, Boundaries are absolutely necessary.

And if you want more information on boundaries, if maybe this is a new topic for you or something you'd wanna work on, check out episode 36. Episode 36. We cover boundaries in that episode. So make sure your plan includes boundaries and expectations. Make sure your plan is also a little bit flexible, right?

We don't want it so planned out that we can't adapt at all. And some of you guys who are extreme planners like you are loving this episode, probably. You're like, This is great. I, you know, I already do most of this, but I'll add some things in here or there. And then those of you who aren't planners are thinking, This is so weird, why would I do this?

And so I wanna challenge kind of both of you. The ones who are, are really. Extra extreme planners. Just make sure you're not getting too strict with your plan. And those of you who aren't planners, put some time into this. You know, you don't need a 20 step plan that you're putting into place, but just something simple can go a long way.

And then just wanted to say that not every minute needs to be planned, of course, but it, again, it's gonna take some pressure off of you if you have a basic plan in place. We've heard tips from people who've done this for a long time, or people who've followed our advice from restored, who've found planning to be really, really helpful.

And it can honestly look as simple as like calling mom or dad or texting them and just saying like, Hey, I wanna spend this time with you and this time with. The other parent. And so it can go a long way. And again, not having a plan can add that pressure and add some stress, which I'll, I'll touch on a little bit later.

But again, feel free to adapt the plan, adapt the plan if you need to. And you can even have backups, for example, if you know that you know, same with your dad, you might get a little dramatic or tense on, and that actually happens. And you can have a backup plan of like going to your grandparents house or going to your aunt and uncle's house or a friend's house.

Some backup can be really good as well. So having some flexibility in your plan is really good as well. Your plan might also include some new traditions. So maybe you're married or you soon will be, or maybe you're going off to college for the first time. You can keep in mind that you can start new tradit.

By yourself, with your friends, with your spouse, with your kids. And perhaps that might even look like serving other people. One family that I really admire, some friends of mine, they would go to visit nursing homes around Christmas time, is a really beautiful way of serving other people, kind of getting outside of themselves, which is a really beautiful tradition.

And so you can create traditions for yourself, for your kids, for your spouse, for maybe just you and your friends or maybe you and your siblings that maybe don't need to involve both of your parents, maybe involve one or whatever that might look like. And so, uh, don't be afraid to start those new traditions.

And then finally, what if things in your relationship with your parents aren't good? I totally get this. And if it's to the extent that you can't see mom or dad, I would just wanna first say, That's rough. I, I hate that you're going through that and we're here for you. I'm really sorry. I've been there myself certain years, certain holiday seasons, and it's no fun.

And if that's the case, my question for you really is this, what can you do to experience some sort of family, some sort of community instead of your immediate family? And that might look like going over to a friend's house, going to a friend's family house, or maybe even having friends over to your place for that particular held.

And that can become your plan. That can, in a way, become your family. So if things in your relationship with your parents aren't good, just make sure you have a backup for that as well, where you're joining another family or starting some of an attrition of your own with your friends. And again, this might seem like a lot of work, but you can keep it really simple.

And a plan really helps you to reduce the drama, to set expectations and boundaries, and most importantly, to take care of yourself so you don't fall into a dark place or do things that you'll maybe later regret. And so a plan also helps you avoid any unwanted surprises. So you can avoid being, you know, thrown into maybe an uncomfortable situation because you didn't think ahead, you didn't plan ahead, you didn't, you know, ask questions about who's gonna be at this party or what's going on here or there.

You've, if you think through that stuff, there's much less likelihood that you're gonna be surprised. And not having a plan really is no good. It might seem easier now, and it might truly be that way cuz you don't need to put time into it or any energy into it. But it often leads some more. More tension and a lot of dysfunction in the end.

And so my challenge to you is this, especially if you're not a planner, push through the discomfort of making a simple plan. It doesn't need to be too complicated. It doesn't need to take long. Just go ahead and push through it. And if it's helpful, you can write it out, you know, put it on paper, put it in your notes app or in your calendar, whatever that might look like.

And towards the end of this segment of the show, I'm gonna give you a little exercise that you can do to write out your plan. You'll just get some questions that you can use. If you answer those questions, you'll basically have a plan. It's really, really simple. All right, so now that you've made a plan, the next step is really simple as well.

And it's communicating that plan, which can be difficult. It's not easy. And so what this looks like basically is just talking to your parents, ideally in person. If it can't be in person, do it over the. If it can't be over the phone, do it through email or text message. And again, in person's best phone is next.

Email or text is last. And you can even write a letter if you need to, like, especially if you're maybe taking some time away spending with your parents because things are toxic or dramatic at home. You can just let them know like, Hey, here's why I'm doing this. I do love you, but I need some time away.

And in all your communication, make sure you're leading with your intention. For example, you can say, I wanna tell you this plan in advance to really set expectations and to make sure that we spend time together. It can be that simple. And so what do you wanna do here is just make sure that your parents know that each of them are part of the plan.

And some things you can say to kind of reassure them is, I wanna see you, I wanna spend time with you. Letting them know you want them to be a part of the plan. And now let's say you can't see both parents or maybe one parent. You can give the reasons why, at least in a diplomatic way. You can say, Hey, I just can't afford to make the trip.

Or, you know, I'm not in a spot where I can do that because it's really exhausting for me. Or it's just a little too much on me this year. Especially if you have a family, maybe you have little kids, you can just say, Hey, we can't make it this year. Or you can just say, Hey, I need a break this year. It's a, it's been a lot.

Everything we've been going through as a family, I need a breather this year. I wanna make sure that next year we can spend time together. I'll need to revisit that later, but I hope that we can, I hope we're in a better spot. And so just make it more about you than about them, because if you make it about them, kind of blaming them for what they've done, even if there's truth to it, they can get really defensive.

It can turn into this whole dramatic thing. And as you can tell with all these tips, part of that communication is really, again, being honest with your parents about how you're feeling. And this obviously assumes that you're in a spot where you at least can have a, a decent relationship with your parents and you can talk to them about what you're going through.

And sometimes, sadly, for a lot of us from broken families, uh, that's not the case. And so that brutal honesty and that vulnerability might not be possible. And even if it is, just understand that you're not gonna give your parents these warm and fuzzy feelings, especially if there's some boundaries you're putting in place that are new that they're not used to.

They're not gonna have warm and fuzzy feelings, but hopefully, They'll respect you for your honesty. They'll respect you for what you're doing, setting boundaries in, in a good, healthy, responsible way. And if they don't know that, I'm proud of, you know, know that you're doing the right things. Know that you're, you're speaking your truth and, and that's really all that you can do.

And how people react. Is that really outside of your control? Now, what if your parents are upset? Couple tips here. Stay calm. If they're freaking out, stay calm. Don't be tempted to kind of jump into the fray and maybe start yelling or getting aggressive as can sometimes happen with those of us who come from broken families.

So stay calm, take a deep breath and try to have compassion. Try to have some empathy. This is what I've learned from Margaret. You'll hear talking about this too. Think about, you know, Hey, what would I feel if I was in their shoes? You know, think about, okay, if I'm a parent, if I'm a mom or. And my kid doesn't wanna spend time with me or is limiting the time that I would spend with them.

Hopefully, you know, a responsible person should be respectful of that, but you can think, Well, I might be upset too. I would wanna spend time with my son or my daughter as well. And so I kind of get why they're upset, even if the way they're expressing that isn't very respectful. And then finally, you know, speak the truth.

Be honest, like I said before. You can tell them what you're thinking, what you're feeling. And as a part of that, one good tactic you can use is really just asking some good questions to kind of communicate your point of view. Um, in this whole conversation, some of the questions that you can ask are actually from an FBI negotiator named Chris Voss.

He wrote a great book called, Uh, Never Split the Difference, and he, he has a lot of great tactics that he offers. There's one main one that I. Touch on when it comes to conversations with your parents, and that is asking the question, How am I supposed to do that? How am I supposed to do it? So if your parents ask you to do something that's maybe complicated or difficult or even I impossible, you can just ask that question, How am I supposed to do that?

And what you're looking for, by the way, is an answer for how you can actually do that, how you can make it work. But what usually happens is when things are unreasonable, the request is so impossible or difficult that there's no real way of doing it. So it kind of stumps the person who's making the request from you.

Again, it's not to be mean, it's really just to convey to them like, Hey, This is what you're asking of me. I don't really know how to do that. How am I supposed to do that? I'm waiting for a response. And so that's a great question you can ask. And then when it comes to other questions, just ask questions aimed at understanding and empathy.

So you can say things like, you know, Hey mom, hey dad. In your mind, what did you expect this year to look like? You know, help me understand this cuz you're obviously upset with what I'm saying, but what did you expect it to look like? Did you expect me to just spend time with you and not my dad? Then you can kind of have that conversation too, and it kind of brings to light maybe these unrealistic expectations that hopefully through asking again more good questions.

Um, the other person that the parent will. Um, understand kind of where you're coming from and see, okay, maybe I'm being a little bit unreasonable. Even if they don't, in the intensity of the conversation, hopefully later at night or the next day, they'll start to realize like, okay, I was being a bit unreasonable.

And a question I frequently use with my parents, by the way, is, if you were in my shoes, what would you do if your mom or dad were asking you what you are right now asking me? So again, like for example, if like dad were to say, I want you to only spend time with me this holiday season. It's like, Okay, dad, I want you to imagine you're me and you know, your, uh, dad is asking you this.

How would you feel? And what I've seen is it really forces them to put themselves in your shoes. And then they realize, Okay, yeah, maybe I am being a little bit unrealistic, or I'm demanding a lot from my kids because I just don't want them to spend time with my spouse, with their mom. And so, um, asking those good questions can really make the other person think.

So that's the second step, is just communicate that plan. And then the final step is really executing the plan. So sticking to the plan that you put in place. And again, you can adapt if needed. If there's good reason to do that, go for it. But part of the reason for having a plan is that you don't wanna allow someone else to take control of your time, of your plan and adapt it for you to maybe their benefit.

For example, let's say you get an invite or request from dad to attend some party and to see him during time that you're spending with your mom, right? And if that's the case, you can kind of point back to the plan. You don't even need to point to yourself. You can say, Hey, dad. We talked about this, this is the plan I'm spending time with Mom.

I, I look forward to seeing you in a few days or whenever you're gonna see 'em. And so you just remind them of the plan. It makes those conversations a lot easier. Even if they do get a little bit upset, you at least have something to point back to that you can communicate it ahead of time. And another thing I would say is learn from it as well.

So don't feel the need to have the perfect plan or perfectly execute that plan. Instead, you can look at this as sort of an experiment. So an experiment really to find the right balance between your parents or find the best solution for the holidays for you, and then you can then make some changes next year based on what you learned this year.

So pay attention to those lessons and don't feel the pressure to kind of have it all figured out right away. You're learning. We're all learning. And so, uh, take that mindset of kind of being an experimenter with this plan, with this holiday season. Just some final reminders. Don't feel guilty, okay? You didn't cause this situation in your family, and it might sound kind of callous to say that, but really one or both of your parents caused this to happen.

And so you shouldn't have to shoulder all the negative effects of it, especially during the holiday or really any time. And remember, you're not being mean to your parents. In fact, you're helping them too. You're helping them to build a healthier relationship with you by putting those healthy boundaries in place, by having this plan.

And again, what can you do if maybe you can't see one or even both parents, again, make sure you're spending time with another family or with friends so you're not just, there's not just this void of you being alone. And so it's ideal that you pick a family or a group of friends that you would want your future family to be like.

That's a really beautiful thing to do. And if you have kids, make sure you're protecting them. What can happen so often is you're so busy trying to please your parents, that your kids can just be exhausted and just really run down, and so don't sacrifice your kid's sanity. Just to please your relatives or your parents, Your immediate family is the most important thing.

Now, another thing, what if your parents are together at a party? This can be tricky. I've been in this situation, my siblings and I have been in this situation, and it can be pretty darn awkward, to be honest. And so in those situations, what I've learned is you really just have to surrender to the fact that you can't control your parents.

You can't control how they interact or who they, you know, talk to during that party. Or if they're interacting at all together. It can be weird again, especially if they're not on talking terms or there's just kind of a lot of tension there. Um, but you just kinda have to surrender the fact, Hey, I can't control this situation.

It is what it is. And, uh, kind of take that weight off your shoulder and if you need a break again, Do it, you know, hang out with other people or go for a walk at the party. Not a problem at all. Now what if you live at home, you might be able to spend a little extra time with the parent that doesn't live at home during the holiday season.

And so I, I'd suggest that, you know, speak with the parent that does live at home, kind of setting that expectation that, hey, you know, I'm gonna spend maybe a few extra days is not gonna be a perfect 50 50 split, um, between you and dad or you and mom. Um, so I just wanna set those expectations up front and explain, Hey, this is why I'm gonna be spending more time with them because dad doesn't live in town here.

You do. And so I definitely wanna make sure that I'm spending time with you, but it's gonna be a little bit skewed towards spending time with, you know, with Dad, for example. And a reminder for those of you who are married to someone from an intact family, You shouldn't have to split time evenly between your in-laws, your dad's side and your mom's side.

It shouldn't be a one third, one third, one third split. It should really be a 50 50 split to where your wife's side of the family, for example, gets 50% of your time and your side of the family gets 50% of the time. And then you would split that 50% in half between mom and dad, 25 to dad, 25 to mom, or honestly whatever percentage you want it to be cuz you are in control of this.

You don't have to, you know, be dictated to who you get to spend time with. You get to decide who you spend time with and so just keep that in mind because there can be this pressure. And then your spouse who comes from an intact family could feel cheated out because then their time with their family is cut short because of the fact that your family is broken.

And so that's not fair, obviously. So I would encourage you set the percentage that you want it to be. My wife and I do rotating holidays to where, you know, one year is my, uh, my side of the family. One year it's her side of the family and on my side of the family, we'll, you know, trade off between spending time with dad and spending time with mom.

And so I, I definitely encourage you to find that balance for you as well. And don't feel bad about, you know, dedicating that time to the intact family. There's nothing wrong with that. Like I mentioned here, a few questions that you can use to create your plan. And you can, again, if you wanna pause this right now, get out a pen and paper or just pull up the notes app on your phone to start writing down the answers to these questions.

The first question is, when will you spend time with each parent, if that's possible. The second who can you ask to be your swim buddy? Third, what three things should you do to take care of yourself? Four. What healthy distractions can you use in intense situations? Five. What predictable circumstances will come up and what can you say or do in them?

Six. What expectations and boundaries need to be set? Seven. If you can't be with your family, what can you do to experience some sort of community instead of your family? Eight. When and how will you communicate the plan? Nine. What can you say to lead with your intention and 10? What's your plan to respond if mom or dad get.

You can rewind to listen to those again if you want to, or you can just go to the show notes to get those questions. You could even copy them and paste them into your notes app and then just write the responses, uh, underneath them. And then you have your plan. It's just a matter of communicating that plan again and executing on that plan.

Again, the three steps are make the plan, communicate the plan, and then execute the plan. And again, you can get those questions@restoredministry.com slash 83 or just click on the link, uh, in the show notes to get those questions. Alrighty. So that wraps up the logistical side of the holidays. With that, let's turn to the emotional side.

Here's my conversation with former trauma therapists, Margaret Vasquez.

So Margaret, as we both know, coming from broken families ourselves, this could really be a difficult time of the year. The holidays can be a difficult time of the year to navigate for so many reasons, especially on an emotional level. There's just a lot of emotions that come up that can be difficult to deal with, that we might not have to deal with the rest of the year.

And so I'm excited to talk with you about, you know, kind of mastering our emotions in one sense, or maybe a better way of saying is become, you know, grow and self mastery of the actions that we take when we feel certain emotions. Maybe that's a better way to say it, but Yeah. I'm curious, do you have personal experience kinda navigating this?

Sure. Yeah. Thanks Joey. Yeah, it's such an important topic, right? And it's not, it's an important topic because if we pay some attention to it, it doesn't. It can really be helpful. It really can. And yeah, I have personal experience because, um, you know, coming from a difficult home situation and that was, that's something that.

I'm not gonna lie, like even to this day still something that I know doesn't look the same in my life, right? My Facebook pictures on holidays don't look the same as other people's Facebook pictures. What? At holidays, right? I mean, just to put it in real practical kind of stuff, You know, my Instagram pictures don't look the same.

And yet giving some thought to that ahead of time helps me in my, in my gut to feel better about that. I think for so many years, cause it was a difficult topic for myself, If something's difficult, it's like, okay, just pushing it outta my head. Don't think about it. Don't think about it. And then, but, but then it calms, you know, the calendar page is like, do get torn off, regardless of if you're thinking about it or not.

And so suddenly being there like Thanksgiving, Christmas, and like, Oh, I didn't think this through, and not thinking about it, didn't keep it away. And so then kind of the last minute either. Feeling like woefully unprepared or also at other times being invited to people's homes for holidays. I remember early days of that back when I was a g, even just a freshman in college and taking that as like, I'm just a charity case, right?

Mm-hmm. . And so then not even letting myself receive from people and yet, like in, in later years coming to understand that, that it was like a joy for them, like bright, Like they had so much joy, they just wanted to, to share. And it wasn't all like, you know, seeing me as like pathetic and so, so something that I needed to, like, protect myself from.

So I guess that's one of the things I, I learned along the way. But then also just the, the planning component and kind of thinking out ahead of time, like mm-hmm. what's gonna help me feel the most prepared and kind of in a lot of ways, like the most emotionally safe, you know, kind of going into. Whether it Thanksgiving or Christmas or whatever the holiday might be, What do, what do I need in order to be able to enjoy that or at least be able to, to get through it in a healthy way?

Yeah, and that's exactly what we wanna talk about in the segment of the show. And I can totally relate on so many levels with you. And I think all of us feel that resistance. If there's tension and drama in our family and the holidays just make us feel anxious or depressed or triggered in one way or another.

Angry honestly, or even embarrassed. Like that's something a lot of people have confided in me and that's like kind of embarrassing, like you alluded to this time of year. We're like, yeah, everyone else seems to have these families that are like these Hallmark style families and we're just like trying to survive right through, right through all of this.

And you know, some years are better. I'm sure some years are worse, but it certainly can be challenging when you come from a, a broken family to, to navigate all this, both on the logistical side as we've touched on, but also on the emotional side, which is why I'm really excited to talk with you.

Psychologists are around this term, the dysregulation. Mm-hmm. , I'm curious if you'd break that down a little bit. Cause that's what hap what happens to me a lot of times when I'm interacting with family, there's kind of tense situations. I feel dysregulated. So would you explain a little bit in simple terms for the common people like me, , to, to really understand like, what, what, what do we mean?

I say dysregulation, I simplify it for myself down to I feel like the emotions have me rather than I have the emotions. Right? And, and part of it can look like, or, or can feel like I actually even feel that physically as well, right? Like I feel my blood pressure, feel my pulse beating harder and my blood pressure maybe going up or feel my muscles tensing or my jaw clenching.

Maybe I'm waking up more with like, I'm, you've been like clenching my teeth during the night or my stomach. Tight or like those kind of things. You know, those kind of physical signals of there's stress going on here, whether I'm realizing it or not, but in the real time of being dysregulated, I think a lot of times it has physiological components that when the emotion feels like, like it has us rather than we are having a particular emotion.

No, that I love. That's a great way to put it. I love that you said that, and I can relate, you know, it kind of feels like you're in fight or flight mode. Is that the right way to think about it? Yeah, fight or flights probably a good way to look at it. Or just kind of like a wash, do you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm. like a wash and this emotion, like I'm like, I'm out to sea and I just being like tossed madly and like hard to even like think logically. Like that'd probably be a pretty good sign that, that the emotional part of my brain is like in high gear and so I'm not doing my. Problem solving. Just another, another reason to plan ahead , right?

Yeah. Yeah. And going back to that like resistance component where we don't want to think ahead to this, I didn't really finish my thought before, I apologize. It's if we kind of push ourselves through that in gentle ways, like starting small, break it down to small pieces and do that, there can be this great benefit of then yeah, coming, going into it prepared and then actually, you know, successfully navigating the challenges that come up or maybe needing to avoid them this year or something like that.

You know, depending on the situation or even perhaps enjoying the holiday season. Again, those can be some of the big benefits if we just kind of push ourselves to think ahead, to do the planning and to prepare like on an emotional level as well as a logistical level to, to handle all of this. I found that if you I push through that resistance and do this legwork, then it turns out better in the end, even though it's not very pleasant, maybe in the very beginning.

Yeah. And just on a real practical side of that, one of the things that I don't know for me personally, but uh, you know, whoever might wanna give this a try, I give myself permission to celebrate once the holiday is over. Right. So it doesn't just feel like I got robbed of being able to celebrate because I didn't have a perfect family situation and the whole rest of, you know, civilized society got to celebrate this holiday and, you know, so somehow just kind of like, you know, I'm outta luck, but instead like, okay, once it feels like.

Made it through, and whether it's the next day or the next weekend or whatever, like giving myself permission to celebrate in whatever, you know, usually it'd be like, have whatever I want to eat, you know, or go out to eat or something like that. So it's always about, I like that . Yeah. I'll just I love that kind of a reward for yourself at the end.

And I, I, I've learned that too, even with motivating yourself for anything in life, it's helpful to put it like a reward in front of you. Like, Okay, when I do this, well, I get that reward, but I don't get it yet. And so I, I like that idea. That's a great one. Yeah. I think for, for myself, God takes away some of the like shame or embarrassment that like, somehow I don't get to celebrate.

It's like, no, my celebration just comes at a different time. Nice. I like that in the intensity of these emotions, um, in these situations where we find ourselves, it's hard to, like you said, we feel like we're kinda washed the way at sea being tossed around. What are emotions trying to tell us? I always just look at it like emotions or information and, and I think if we look at it like that, then, then emotions don't have to be big and scary.

So I, I'll tend to look at it like if I'm having an emotion of anger, to me anger is usually about somebody's crossed a boundary of mine or if somebody I really care about, that's, that's when I tend to get angry. And I oftentimes see that and with people I. Or fear. If there's a sense of fear, then that's usually emotions telling us there's something here to be cautious about, which I think a lot of times is what's going on ahead where they have that dread, you know, would fall into that same category as the holidays approach.

Okay. There's something to be cautious about. There's some, Don't be cautious then about going into this situation unprepared without giving it some forethought or, you know, if I'm, Anxiety to me usually indicates that, that I'm getting into like self-reliance. I'm relying on myself instead of, instead of the Lord, instead of resources instead of other people who are, who really are support to me.

You know, and that kind of thing. My, my vision has narrowed down to every man for himself, you know, and I'm on my own kind of thing. So if we look at emotions as information, then they don't have to be scary because then they're. , there's still an, an eye of me that is able to pay attention to that information and respond to it in a practical and logical and compassionate way instead of suddenly like, I am that emotion.

Mm. That makes so much sense. And one thing I was thinking of in the past that I've had to deal with is I don't really know why I'm feeling the way that I'm feeling. And that could be difficult cuz it's like, man, I don't wanna be feeling this way. It's kind of tending, it's causing, not causing me. I don't wanna say that, but it's, uh, maybe triggering me to act in a certain way.

Like ultimately I'm the one in charge of my actions. But it might be, you know, I might be more inclined to do this or say that. Any advice for people who are like, well, well I guess on one end I don't know what I'm feeling. Sure. And on the other end, like, I don't know why I'm feeling. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I'd say always the, the first thing to go to is to like, to like regard that emotional part of yourself from a place of compassion.

And then, and the really cool thing, what that's gonna do is naturally help you to kind of zoom out from feeling that feeling so intensely that you, that you can't even, like, you know, kind of begin to wrap your head around it. And then once you kind of zoom out and are in that stance of compassion, then I always say like, our, our self talk, just like our talk with each other.

When, when somebody else is in a difficult emotional spot and they're sharing with us, if the order of our self-talk is to first validate the emotion, right? That doesn't mean necessarily agreeing with it or giving it like all the, you know, a hundred percent. This is the gospel truth like, but it's just, it makes sense that this part of me would feel that way.

That's what validating looks like, right? So validating the emotion, expressing compassion to myself and my own soul talk, and then speaking the truth. So then if there's something else, some other angle to kind of like illuminate or some other factor or something to weigh in, because emotions are information, but they're only one source of information.

So that's important to remember. So if there's other information I need to kind of factor in that from, from what we, what I would say is like the eye of me , that that is not that emotion, but responding to that emotion. Then I can weigh it in after I've validated the emotion and express compassion. But if we jump right to well, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah in our own self talk, then I think we tend to just get ourselves tied to knots and, and our emotions just tend to kind of like go underground, you know?

Yeah, no, I could see that. I remember end of high school, beginning of college, there was a period where I just felt very anxious and depressed at different times. And it was, at the time, I didn't have the language to identify what I was feeling. And so I'm curious there, um, aside from using this three point framework, is there anything we could do like better identify, like, Oh, I'm feeling this at this time, or is that just something that we have to learn through experience and there's no real way of kind of identifying what we're feeling?

Cause I know certain people are very in tune with their emotions. They know like, Oh, I'm upset, or, or not upsets too generic, but I'm angry about this. Or, you know, I feel violated or whatever. But others have a harder time identifying like what they're feeling. And then, like I mentioned, why they're feeling it too can be tricky.

Yeah, it's true. You know, what comes to mind? I don't know if there's a way, if, if you have a way to, to put this up or else, you know, um, I'll share this PDF with you as a pdf, but, or else people can look it up online. I'm sure there's, I'm sure you can find them, but I a in my office, I have a vocabulary of emotions and it's pretty cool.

Cause down the side it has like mild, moderate, strong. And then across the top it has, you know, happy, sad, scared, worried, anxious, has a lot of different, you know, maybe six or seven different emotions across the top. And so I think that can even be like, when I'm working with somebody in my office and they're having a hard time putting an emotion on something we're working on, they'll look through this vocabulary of emotions and oftentimes it seems like it's helpful.

I like that. So that's just like super practical. Yeah, no, let's put that in the show notes. So thank you for mentioning that and I think that will be really helpful as well. Um, moving on. So when we do feel that way, when we do feel dysregulated or upset, um, you know, kind of out of balance, like, like we were talking about, what, what are some healthy things we can do to deal with those emotions?

Cause I know what I see a lot is the temptation is always to do unhealthy things, to cope in unhealthy ways, what that looks like. A lot of different things for different people, but for some people it looks like isolating themselves. For other people it looks like eating too much for other people, it's drinking too much.

For other people, it's pornography. Like it runs the gamut. But I'm curious, what are some things that we can do that are healthy, that calm us, that help us deal with our emotions as opposed to these unhealthy ways of. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Great question. So, so again, I'm gonna keep going back to planning, right?

But I'd say consider who you are, right? So whoever who are listeners, right? Consider who you are as an individual and what healthy looks like to you. So, um, like what helps you to get in a good place emotionally and stay in a good place. And, and then what also helps to return you to a place of calm. So for one person, it might be, it might be isolating, might just need like a time out from the chaos for somebody else that might, might be needing to have somebody you already planned ahead of time that you're gonna like, touch base with at a couple, two or three times throughout the day.

Just to be like, Hey, how's it going? You know, just say you have that sense of connection, right? You know, I'm big. With another person who, who understands who, who you feel like really understands the situation. And it doesn't mean that you have to have an extended conversation with them that takes them necessarily away from their family situation if they're at a different location.

But you just know that you, you kind of feel tethered right to, to another human being who gets it, somebody else with skin on. So for some people it might look like isolating. For some people it might look like touching base, you know, even a, even a text, just like somebody willing to reach out and say like, Hey, hanging in there.

Like, you know, that kind of thing. I think walking is always a great thing. Anything that's bilateral stimulation, not something, we tend to do it big holidays. Usually it's, it's eat a lot and then sit and watch football, right? isn't that kinda the American way? But honestly like anytime we're engaging both sides of our body, we're engaging both sides of our brain.

Which means it's, it kind of helps to, to kind of calm the right hemisphere of the brain because the, the left side's, the logical side, really big strokes. So yeah. So anytime we're, you know, whether it's biking or going for a walk or yeah. Whatever that looks like for anybody, different situations. But anytime we're doing something like that, even just planning in like a short bit of that can be really helpful.

So I'd say really looking ahead of time, like for me, working out is a really important thing, and honestly, if I start the day working out as opposed to using it as a response, that's even better for me. There's something about working out in the morning that feels like I'm, I'm really taking care of myself.

Like I'm really doing what I need to do in order to feel healthy and to feel like I'm going into the day with some sort of like self mastery, you know, kind of thing. Mm-hmm. , like, I'm really like, you know, kicking ass and taking names , so to speak. Right. So, yeah. So looking at you as a person and like what helps you feel kind of charged up that, that you're like, on your game when you're going into a situation?

No, I like that. And a few for me friends, like spending time with good friends, kinda like you mentioned mm-hmm. . Um, but even like, totally disconnected from talking about kinda what I'm going through. If I just spend like quality time with friends who are having like deep conversations or sharing a drink or something like that, that gives me life and helps me kind of be more of a master of my actions regardless of how I'm feeling.

That's one of them for me. Sports are another one for me. Like if I go play volleyball or hockey or something like that, it's uh, it's really helpful. It gives me life and again, makes it easier to kind of put up with and navigate some of these difficult emotions. A few other ones, uh, movies. I love stories.

I love good movies. Um, music and then like you said, working out as well, which kind of goes along with the sports stuff on the working out point. Just wanna hide this for our listeners. You. Might not be the type of person who works out a ton or works out intensely. And that's okay. The main thing here is movement.

Like do something like if you haven't done a pushup in like five years or maybe never, don't try to go do pushups. Like you could try if you want to , but just like go for a walk, right? Go for a bike ride. Like do something that, um, you're moving your body. You're not sitting on your couch, on your phone all the time, but it just gives you some sort of movement.

So that's one tip, uh, for you guys. But I love all these tips. Are there any specific tips in kind of emergency situations? So maybe you're in the midst of a really tense situation with mom and dad or a really dramatic situation. Like I've been in situations where like the police are involved with my family in the past and that those can be really tough situations.

You could feel all sorts of things. So any like tip one or two tips, uh, for in the midst of those situations, how to deal with your emotion? So, so there's something in counseling that's called grounding. And so grounding is getting us back essentially to like the here and now. And so anytime you stimulate the five senses, um, it can get you back to that spot.

So like, and I'd say doing it with intention, right? So a lot of the stuff we can tend to do incidentally, right? Like if somebody can be nervous and so they're kind of like playing with their keys, like jingling their keys, or if they're giving a talk, they're like, they might be kind of like fiddling with the edge of the page that they have their notes on or something like that.

But if we know what it's doing and we do it intentionally, it can increase that sense of autonomy and self-efficacy, right? Like that, that I'm the actor in my world and that I can be effective on myself and what I'm doing. And so, so it might be like getting a super cold bottle of water. And just like holding that and maybe even holding it against the skin on the, like the inside of your wrist, you know, like that skin can be like more sensitive or, you know, even up against your cheek, you know, you might wanna do something like that.

Or sucking on a mint, you know, or chewing gum or something. Again, like those, you know, stimulating like sense of, sense of touch, a sense of taste. Using those things to like intentionally bring you back to the here and now instead of the there and then of some past painful, full memory that might be coming to mind that might be like, you know, kind of triggered by the given situation or some anxiety about the future.

Mm-hmm. . Right? So using those things intentionally can bring us back. And I'd say if you're in the, the heat of a moment, like right there and you, you don't have any access to things like that, know that like you can take a step back. Like you can excuse yourself and go for a walk. Or even if you can't, if the weather is totally like terrible and you can't do that.

Excuse yourself and go to the bathroom, you know what I mean? Like do whatever you need to do to take a time out. And just knowing that you have the ability to do that I think can like really go a long way to helping ourselves have that, that sense of safety that can keep us from, from feeling so trapped in the situation.

And again, having like an emergency plan ahead of time. Again, it's kinda like a parachute, right? You don't wanna have to use it, but you're glad it's there in case . Yeah, No, I like that. That makes so much sense. And it's almost like physically removing yourself can give you that emotional break, which I love if I understand that.

Right. And then also you mentioned something about sparkling water, it can actually be calming on like a lymphatic level, right? Like it could actually calm your nerves, right? Yeah. So. So Dr. Friend of mine, chiropractor, nutritionist guy, said the bo, the place in the body that releases the second highest amount of serotonin is actually the back of the throat.

Now, serotonin is one of the feel good hormones, and it's usually associated with a sense of importance. So like when, when we graduate, you know, we get our diploma or when we get our, uh, you know, when it's sports banquet and you get your award and that kind of thing, and that, that kind of, that sense of pride, that sense of importance.

So you can access that same hormone by sipping on sparkling water or really any, anything that's carbonated. You just don't wanna be drinking a bunch of really sugary drinks and like sending your blood sugar all over the place. So if you're drinking like sparkling water or, um, club soda or something like that and, and sipping on it, right?

So you have that kind of like continual stimulation of the back of the throat. It's the, the fizzy feeling, right? The carbonation causes that serotonin to be released. There's another thing with like endorphins. So, um, endorphins is another feel good hormone, and that's actually stimulated by pushing past our physical limits, which we talked about that a little bit with exercise or, or what have you.

But also dark chocolate releases. Endorphins causes release of endorphins. So it's like the high quality stuff. Like I don't, I don't think A Three Musketeers is gonna do it if you get some like higher, higher percentage of kacal or whatever in it, but it causes a release of Endor. So have like a dark chocolate bar and some sparkling water

You'll be happy person. . There you go. So you're basically saying all you need to navigate the holidays is chocolate. That's, that's pretty much it. I mean I think a lot of women are life actually. . Yeah. And guys too. I mean that sounds amazing to me. But I know, I know my wife would appreciate that she loves star chocolate.

Yeah, no, great tips. And I love how practical they are. And just closing out the show, is there anything we can do to prevent ourselves from becoming dysregulated, aside from the planning that we've mentioned a few times? And if not, you know, if we can't prevent that, how can we at least become regulated again more quickly to where we feel that sense of like balance emotionally?

Yeah. So honestly I would just, I would. Kind of summing up, I guess, if you will, the things we've talked about. So having the plan ahead of time not only provides you with the information, but it provides you with a sense of preparedness. And so it kind of like reiterates to your own consciousness that there is an eye of you that's outside of the emotions, right?

Like there's a Joey and there's a Margaret, that that still remains like, regardless of if I, if I get really fearful or if I get really angry or whatever. And from that place, you're planning. So, so it, it kind of like grows your, what we would call true self, right? It kind of like grows that like, Oh, I can do this and I can take care of this and I already have this planned for.

And then just keeping like, you know, I mentioned the grounding techniques, like maybe even like going into whatever the place is. You know, whether it's a friend for or, or a family for holiday, but throw some mints in your pocket. Throw some come in your, in your pocket, you know? Mm-hmm. , even plan those things out a little bit ahead of time.

And then having a person on the other end who's gonna be there to, to, you know, answer your text or to get together, like you said, even doesn't mean if we spend time with family that we have to spend the entire day. So maybe there's, maybe keep something at some point in the day that you have to look forward to, to kind of counterbalance and, and if you don't have people or a place to do that with, like, at least planning in something that's fun for you.

Like you had mentioned like movies. And then, and then finally like, just kind of going back to the beginning, like giving yourself permission to celebrate, having gotten through the holiday once you're through, through the holiday, because it is difficult. And so I think, um, giving ourselves permission to celebrate that is, Is important.

I think it acknowledges the difficulty of what we've gone through as opposed to like, you know, feeling like, oh, well somehow this is just the package deal of being me, but like kind of, it's kind of the attaboy or at a girl for like having gotten through something that like maybe not everybody has to get through and kind of celebrating that as an achievement instead of just kind of enduring it as part of my lot in life.

Mm-hmm. . Okay. No, that makes so much sense. Thank you so much Margaret. Appreciate your time. And just in closing, any tips or encouragement that you'd give on Yeah, just overall how to. Take care of yourself during this time of year? Anything addition, additional that you would add into what we've already talked about?

Yeah, I would definitely add that, you know, even as you and I have shared right, that, that this is something that's part of our history and maybe, um, maybe part of current situation and that there are other people who are in that same category, that it doesn't say something. I guess what I'm trying to say is like, it doesn't say something about you as a person.

There's not some like failure. You're not less than anybody. There should, There's no shame that goes along with that. It's a, it's a set of circumstances that, that aren't who you are. There's something that you're enduring and. I would just really wanna like alleviate that for people because there's no, there's no real like, truth in that and like caring.

This is like somehow I'm less than other people. I'm, you know, I guess maybe kind of along those same notes or the, that same line, like maybe if, if you can foresee it being difficult for you, like, That you're in a lot different boat maybe than some people on during the holidays. Maybe like staying off of social media for the day might be a good thing, so you're not looking at everybody else's posts of how different their family situation might be from years.

Just thinking that might be a good plan

if you've wanted to do counseling or coaching, but maybe you've struggled to find someone to work with. We can actually help Margaret, who you heard in this episode actually. Coaching, which is similar, a little bit different than counseling. Now, first thing you should know is Margaret is extremely competent.

I've actually personally gone to her, uh, as a therapist and she's been so, so helpful. She's been the best therapist I've ever gone to. I've been to a bunch. And not to say the others were bad, she was just the best. She's so good at what she does and like I had mentioned, she's has over 16 years of experience as a trauma therapist, and she recently made the pivot from counseling into coaching.

And so she's able to work with a lot more people. There's certain things she can't do, um, but she's still able to help in tremendous ways and she offers that service virtually, uh, wherever you're at through, you know, phone calls or Zoom meetings and her pricing by the. Is very reasonable. I've never seen anything like it.

And so you definitely wanna check this out. If you'd like to work with her, it's really easy to do. So just go to her website. It's called Sacred Heart healing ministries.com. And if you don't remember that, that's okay. We'll put the link in the show notes, just click on that link. Uh, that's the first step.

Second step is. Uh, if you see a popup for coaching slash consulting, just click schedule session. And if you don't see that popup, then just go to services, the services menu on that page and then click Coaching and consulting. And I apologize if at some point in the future this changes and it looks a little bit different.

And then the final step is just fill out the assessment form. It takes, uh, you know, somewhere around five minutes and then submit it, and then Margaret or her team will reach out to you to schedule your first session. Again, that's sacred Heart healing. ministries.com or just click on the link, uh, in the description or in the show notes.

And again, I highly recommend working with Margaret. And if nothing else, I would say is, you know, if you've struggled to find a good counselor coach, give Margaret a shot. Just do the initial, uh, session. Do the initial, you know, first do the intake, and then if you know you get approved to work with her, then go ahead and do that initial session.

Just see how it goes. It's a great investment for you to just try it out. And if that goes well and you continue working with her, I'm, I'm so confident that you're gonna see some great results in your life. So I couldn't recommend it more. Again, click on the link in the show notes if you wanna work with Margaret Vasquez.

If you want more content on this topic, you can check out these episodes. Episode four seven, Tips to Navigate The Holidays for Children of Divorce, Episode 32, How to Navigate the Holidays, Advice from 11 Children of Divorce, and then episode 59 from a Broken Family. Nine Tips to Navigate the Holidays, and as mentioned, feel free to join our online community@restoredministry.com slash community, or just click on the link in the show notes.

Thank you so much for listening. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, especially during the holiday season, please share this podcast with them. And always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

#082: You Deserve Better than a Broken Life and Relationships | Kailash Duraiswami

Imagine you have all the success, pleasure, money, and excitement you could want. But instead of being happy, you feel unhappy and empty. What would you do?

That was the story of our guest today. The wounds from his broken family were at the core of his need to live a life of extreme pleasure, excitement, and ultimately, unhappiness. But that all began to change when the 2016 US presidential election caused him to question everything. In time, he went from partying with billionaire Silicon Valley entrepreneurs to living a very different life.

In this episode, you’ll hear his story and also:

• How he didn’t even recognize that he was trying to fill an endless hole

• How the lack of an example in how to form healthy relationships inhibited is ability to do so and caused a lot of turmoil in his relationships

• How transforming himself led him to his beautiful soon-to-be bride and authentic happiness

Get the free chapters or buy the book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce

Links & Resources

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• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

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As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Imagine you have everything that you think will make you happy, success, pleasure, money, exciting experiences, all the things that our culture says will make you happy, but it doesn't make you happy. In fact, you just feel unhappy and empty. What would you do? That was the story of my guest today. The wounds from his broken family were at the core of his need to live a life of extreme pleasure, excitement, and ultimately unhappiness.

But that all began to change. Surprisingly, after the 2016 US Presidential election. It made him question everything. And in time he went from literally partying with billionaires, Silicon Valley entrepreneurs to living a very different lifestyle. And his story is just amazing. In this episode, you'll hear his story and how when his dad left when he was a teenager, he was treated like an adult without any boundaries, which led to a lot of problems and bad habits in his life.

He shares what was the ultimate pleasure that he sought. He talks about how he didn't even recognize that he was trying to fill an endless hole inside of him. He talks about how a lack of an example on how to form healthy relationships really hurt his ability to do so as an adult and even caused him a lot of turmoil in his relationships.

And finally, he talks about how his life totally turned around and how he found his beautiful fiance who will soon be his bride, and how his life is so much better today, how he is so much happier today than he was in the past. Really amazing story. Lots of great content, so keep listening.

Welcome to The Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents'. Separation or broken marriage so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode a D two, and my guest today is Kla Dewa. Kla is a technology entrepreneur most recently in the artificial intelligence space as the founder of Pen Tenix.

Pen. Tenix is an artificial intelligence platform that automates manual data entry for financial services companies through computer vision. Pen Tenix was acquired by financial services software provider or advisor solutions and Spring 2021. Kalos is an adult convert to the Catholic church and is most interested in the connection between Catholic principles and entrepreneurship in the world of software startup.

His new startup fee day is taking on big tech by offering Catholic alternatives in the consumer technology space. But without any further ado, here's my conversation with my friend Kla

Kash. So good to have you here. Thanks so much for being on the show. Thank you for having me. I'm fascinated by your story. I know we're just getting to know each other, but you've told me a little bit so far and so I'm excited to dive in and starting out. I'd like to go back in time and I, I'm curious, how old were you when things at home, uh, became dysfunctional and what exactly happened there?

Yeah, it's tough to really point to any memory of my childhood or I would say things. Were really positive. My parents immigrated from a different country and you know, a lot of, a lot of families would live in these metropolitan areas where you'd be surrounded with a lot of people who knew your language, knew your, your family background.

But yeah, just due to different career needs, my family moved to a very small town in Florida and so there wasn't that much of a cultural infrastructure that my father in particular who was used to, and that was very difficult for them right from the beginning. So yeah, I would say that there was really, any of my earliest memories would be conflict between my parents and for a variety of reasons.

Maybe financial, maybe based on friends or family interactions. There would be a lot of of challenges. That would come up. I, I have very few, you know, I talked to my sister about this. I have very few memories of growing up, which are positive, and I, I thought that was normal. I mean, I didn't think anything of it.

Yeah. I thought that's just how it is for me. I never thought about it. And then I would talk to my sister about that later as we became adults and she would say, You know, that's not, that isn't really normal. Mm-hmm. , you know, normally you would have positive memories, but the truth for me is, yeah, there are, there are some, but the, the challenges both within our family environment and challenges in, in my own life greatly outweigh functional memories.

So I would say it was as far back as I could remember, I would say it was dysfunctional. Okay. That makes sense. And I can, uh, relate to a lot of that. There were some good memories early on, but it seems like when things become dysfunctional in a family, when things start to fall apart, The bad memories certainly take over, and that's a trend I've seen a lot in doing these interviews that unfortunately, you know, there's very few good memories to go back to.

Was there any point where your parents separated or anything like that? Um, and as much as you're comfortable sharing what happened there? Yeah. Uh, there was a period of time where they, they didn't live together. And, you know, I came on this, this podcast to talk about myself and to talk about the changes that I've been able to undergo.

And I think that it is important to talk about the background and I'm happy to answer these questions. It's not something that I want to shy away from. Yeah. But I'll be very open about it. But really with the hope that it points to a great present and yes, my, my family, I remember when I was a. I, I think in middle school, maybe even earlier, I asked my father, they were arguing about something and I said, Do you even love mom?

I asked him, Do you, do you even love her? And he laughed and they, they, I don't know if that question ever came into their mind, but obviously even very young, it came into my mind. And then as I grew older in high school, they decided, he decided that my mom decided, I know that there was not, they were going to live separately.

Mm-hmm. . And, uh, my father, he, he went for a drive with me and they, we were going to a, uh, wedding for a cousin, which was out of state. And then he said, When we come back, I'll be moving out. And my sister had actually already told me just days before probably. So I, it wasn't, that actually wasn't a surprise to hear.

And he also was kind of ashamed to admit that he was going to be moving in with. Another woman, which was very, and I mean he was very ashamed of that, but he, that was part of his mechanism to make this decision. Mm-hmm. and, um, that they, that was when I was just becoming of driving age. And I remember being very detached from this at the time.

And he routinely after that, would actually want to come back. And I always said no, because I wanted the freedom because I had no discipl. Yeah, when he wasn't there, he, he was someone who would always try to investigate what I was doing, and he didn't give me personal space, which is not all bad, you know, If you're young, you need boundaries.

But yeah, because my mom would work or he, you know, certainly when he was not there, I, my made my own boundaries and that I, I would use that to, as we know, as Catholics, I would indulge in my fleshly desires for sure, as a high school student. And that was because I had no boundaries. So he regretted it, but for 10, some, almost 10 years, they, they were separated and he wasn't with that person the entire time because she was, she became aware that he was not gonna leave my mother, actually.

Wow. He wouldn't, he couldn't move himself to actually, Make that final decision. That's actually beautiful. Yeah. They, their, their attention to tradition and some, some form of morality allowed them to get through that actually. But they did, It was a very tough environment. They didn't know how to, to, to deal with their conflicts and then it led to this event.

Okay. That makes sense. Thanks for sharing all that. In No way, Of course. Are we trying to shed a bed light in your parents? I know we've talked separately about it's important to be honest about what we've been through, um, and then sharing to whatever levels, you know, of comfort. So thank you. And I think it, it is helpful what you said it's really helpful about how.

We're not gonna say in like, this dark part of your story, we're gonna get to the lighter parts and the, the happier endings. And so, uh, I wanna transition to that shortly, but first you, you mentioned a little bit of how you had reacted to the dysfunction at home to whatever level you're comfortable sharing.

What did that look like? Yeah, this I'm very comfortable with. Cool. Because these are my decisions. Yeah. And I, it's so, it's so obvious to me and it's so, um, It's pedestrian in a way, what I did. But I would, I had to be the most popular kid in school and I was the pre the homecoming king, you know, be in homecoming court many years and many years in a row in high school.

And I had all these friends and every social gathering, you know, all the partying I had to be there and you know, would have different girlfriends, different interactions like this. Breaking rules. Never did any homework, didn't adhere to anything. I didn't want to do a lot of impulsive actions and that, you know, like I said, I lived basically in an environment where my mother, she actually, she specifically would allow me to.

Be an adult in a way. That's kind of how she viewed it. Part of it was I had a strong will and she didn't, I don't think she realistically could have reigned me in mm-hmm. . But part of it is she wanted me to become an adult that was independent. Yeah. Which is not wrong, but I, so I simultaneously would have like the, I probably had the hardest schedule of any student in school because I would take like very high level math classes mm-hmm.

in the college nearby. But simultaneously, I didn't do any of the work and I would spend a huge amount of time partying. And it only, this is in high school and so it only really would take any kind of abatement or I, I retracted it only in very little ways. I was, you know, in the second SES semester of senior year mm-hmm.

and the kids I was hanging out with would be drinking excessively on a Tuesday. Yeah. Weekday. Yeah. And I would just be like, I can't do this anymore. And I actually was a, a gifted student, but I did very poorly on homework. I didn't do homework. I had no, like, discipline at all. Mm-hmm. . And no one encouraged me to do it.

There was, I remember my aunt once times came, she was visiting and I had a science experiment, due science project due the next day. And I started it that day. And her, her kids are so on point, they were like great students. My, that cousin went to Columbia University, Ivy League, like so well disciplined.

Mm-hmm. . And she was like shocked. She couldn't believe this. And I was like, This is it. Yeah. You know, I'm not gonna do this until the first, the day before. And so, but, but what hap, the reason I bring that up is I applied to colleges and I was denied from every college I applied to, and I was wait listed at the one that I went to eventually, and that, that even humiliated me very badly.

Okay. And that was the beginning of a change for me in college where I actually became very diligent because I responded to this, it wounded me badly, but I was very, very fortunate that I was actually admitted to a school from the wait list. And, but like I said, that gave me kind of a, a bump or a, a source of energy for the many years of college where I actually had great, good habits.

I was, I re I didn't drink and I, I said no to these things and I was very diligent, which was good. And, but, That's the kind of interim, because then after I graduated college, I moved to Silicon Valley and I was a software engineer and that's when things really went outta control. Yeah. Because that's when I was starting to make a lot of money and I had much more agency in.

My control over my day. Yeah. Control over my friends. And that's where a lot of those habits and indulgence, indulgent behavior from high school was like 10 Xed. Yeah. And that's where I had a lot of trouble with. Same thing. A lot of drinking and partying, hard drugs, club drugs, music festivals. I mean, I did everything crazy.

You can possibly imagine. Not many people know about this, but I have tattoos all over my body. You would never believe that. I didn't know that. Yeah, you would never believe that. Yeah. If you knew me, no one could believe that. But I made tons of these irreparable mistakes. Yeah. And I, same thing, just the ultimate pleasure I sought was the company of women.

Yeah. Ultimate, I mean that with drugs big time. I just, I had to pursue that. I was compelled to pursue that compulsively. I couldn't say no. Yeah, there was, and this is what my existence was. And again, professionally things were okay. They, they were great by most metrics. Not to my standard of ambition, but they were very good.

I could support myself in San Francisco, very high rent, no issue. I had a great career as a software engineer, but that fueled crazy lifestyle. I'm telling you like the most insane experiences you can imagine in Vegas, the most, you know, partying with literally Silicon Valley billionaires. I mean, I've done that.

I've been there in, in immense pursuit of self-gratification through the pleasure of what we feel in this world. Mm-hmm. , and that all pointed to a lack of morality. And it pointed to a wound that I had that I, I couldn't. I needed to make myself feel good or this is what I should be doing. This is what successful people do.

This is what the cool kids are doing. You know, all these things are so reverberating in my head and I know because I had friends that I grew up with in the same community who are from the same background as I did, who had the same professional life, so to, you know, essentially. And they didn't do those things like they could refuse.

I know people I grew up with never drink, you know, very similar family background, didn't drink, didn't do these things. Mm-hmm. . And they could live in a stable way. I could not, like, I could not live in a stable way. Mm-hmm. whatever weekend it was. It wasn't just that I had to go to the bar with the friends, it was like, no, we.

I mean, I don't even know the legality of it, but basically do a bunch of illicit drugs. Yeah. And there was a lot of stuff that I had to, I was compelled to do and I think it points to the wounds of my childhood for sure. Yeah. It was the pain that I felt, the lack of stability, the lack of identity, and I thought very much, and I was, I had the agency very much to, to solve this problem through pleasure.

Mm-hmm. essentially. And that's, that's where I was when I really got to rock bottom, which was when I, I lived with someone and we were in a relationship and we, we. In college and we would do drugs and we'd party. And she was in a very wounded state and I was in a very wounded state and we were wanted to be together.

Yeah. Forever. And, you know, we committed to each other and blah, blah, blah. And it was, it was terrible. Yeah. I mean that, that's sore and bad combination. Yeah. It was just a, a nexus of, and she's doing great now, by the way. God bless her. I'm actually very happy that she got through it as well. But we would, we, we had a friendship based on partying and, and doing drugs and then we had a relationship based on it.

And it was, it was not, uh, it was a recipe for a disaster. We can put it mildly like that. And that's what, that's where I was. Wow. So much there to dive into. I'm curious, what were you looking for in all that? You alluded to it, but I wanna go deeper into that because I think a lot of people find themselves in a similar spot, even if they're not partying with billionaire Silicon Valley entrepreneurs.

Uh, they find themselves in a similar spot where they're seeking escapes, where they're trying to, they're looking for something. I'll leave it at that. What were you looking for in particular? Yeah, it, I think there's two sides of it. One is, at the time if you had asked me, I don't know what I would've said.

Wow. Okay. Yeah. Makes sense though. Like, honestly, I don't even know how I could have answered a direct question like that. Why are you doing this? I, I don't know. I don't know what I could have said at that time. Yeah. But looking back with the, with the lens that I have now, I think I had, I have an, an energy of ambition and an energy of productivity and an energy of, of output.

I'm a very output driven person. Yeah. And my measurement of that at the time was all social and all. Which is what is the highest social output I can create? What is the highest material output I can create? The answer to, to those two things socially was the craziest stories socially was, you know, the wildest time socially was the thing that I could brag about Vainly to others that I, that all the things that I just said, you know, the most exclusive v i p Vegas experience in a club that you can imagine telling these stories that would make people laugh.

You know, this is, this is what was interesting. That's what I wanted. And then when it came to the material pursuit, it was to be a successful technology company founder. Mm-hmm. , because that was the, to me, I, I still think this is true, it is the pinnacle achievement of a career in our generation is to do something innovative that is actually, um, validated by the marketplace.

A hundred percent. Yeah. So both of those things were, those were what truly fueled me. I, I don't think I could have actually recognized it. And it was very chaotic. And tho those, those pursuits are endless in a sense because it, it's just subject to your appetite. So some people might think the good time that they brag about with their friends is go to this new restaurant, go to this cool bar.

But for me it was, no, I have to be in the, you know, the, the nth degree. Yeah. The highest possible, like at a music festival. It wasn't just to go, but it would be to like be in the V i p v I P, you know, the most exclusive section. It was all about exclusivity and the, the vanity that I could have of being able to tell those stories.

Yeah. One thing I know about you in the little time I've known you, you don't do things halfway. So it's like if you were gonna be like this hedonistic like person, right? You're gonna go all the way down that path and it makes so much sense. I wanna get to like the happier side of the story, but another question on this point.

did you feel empty going through all that? It's, it's weird. I felt deep levels of anxiety. Okay. And deep levels of turmoil, you know, But I don't, I don't, I definitely did not recognize that I was trying to fill an endless pit. Hmm. Which I see now, you know, And Sy Augustin teaches us that as well, that our appetites are endless.

I definitely did not understand that, but I, I was not happy. I mean, I, you know, nearly overdosed on cocaine. I mean, there's just a lot of stuff like this where I was not happy when that was, you know, your heart's racing. I was not enjoying that, or these con, these experiences I would have with women. I would meet online or whatever.

Like, I wasn't happy in the tur mile of those relationships. I wasn't, I felt. A lot of pain in my relationships that I would have with them and break up, get back together again. Break up, break up all this stuff. I didn't enjoy it, but I don't, I wouldn't have understood, because I didn't understand even the, the idea of appetites, I didn't understand the idea of temptation, so it wouldn't have resonated with me that I was empty.

Mm-hmm. it, but it would, I do see that I was very unhappy. Okay. That makes a lot of sense. Shifting a little bit to relationships, you've talked about them already. Is there anything additional you would add in terms of how the background you came from, everything you went through, how did that all affect your dating relationships and now your e engagement, even if you wanna talk about that.

Sure. I think first I never received either by example or by instruction. The correct way to form a relationship or to treat someone in a romantic relationship period. Yeah. So that is a very difficult mountain to climb that I really, I didn't, I didn't climb it. And we can get to that later in the story.

Yeah. I, So I never received an instruction of how to date. Now, part, let's, let's be honest, part of it is my parents are not from this country and they had an arranged marriage. Okay. Yeah. So they were essentially arranged to be marriage before they met, arranged to be married before they met. Right. So they didn't date, they didn't know anything about it.

It's a very western American, perhaps European idea. Fair enough. So there's, there is no instruction that can happen in this and from that regard, but then the tough part also was that at home, due to the manner in which they related, I didn't have either an example as well. Right. I received no kind of moral.

Didactic teaching or interpersonal didactic teaching at all. Mm-hmm. . So the way that I pursued relationships is really given the metric that I just said, which was the maximum level of comfort or the maximum level of social proof that it would offer to me. Meaning being with someone who was the most beautiful, or having a story which was the most off the wall.

You know, basically I, I did, definitely did not, and could not look at being in a relationship by virtue of the person I was with. It was all about these ancillary aspects of who I was with, what they did for me, essentially what they did for my reputation, what they did for my stories, what they did for my life.

Yeah. And so that will bring in tons and tons of issues. And I was in many relationships where it's, it's two people using each other, to be honest, you know, I, I. As I've become more available to these experiences, I, I, I'm ashamed of how I treated them. Yeah. But then I actually can acknowledge, Wow. They treated me very poorly too.

Sure. Yeah. You know, so it was, my relationships were always two people using each other. And, and I can say that with confidence because, Like I'd, I would tell my fiance now, who's the polar opposite of all of this, by the way, people, That's beautiful. She's an angel. And I'm like, You wouldn't have been with me then literally, you would've never found me.

She might have been repulsed, she would've been at church. Like you wouldn't, you wouldn't have never seen or known me or anything. Yeah. Yeah. And so the reason I bring that up is the people I did see and I did know were wounded too. Right. And, and they were in these parties and in these events, and they were seeking pleasure.

We would do drugs together, you know, It was, that's what it was. Yeah. And everything was a building block of material pleasure or Zane reputation building. And so what, what is that relationship that I ha would have with someone? Basically nil. You know, the, the, the human aspect of it would become always just become painful.

Mm-hmm. , right. Try even trying to do the right thing or trying to establish some kind of exclusivity in the relationship, some protection, you know, monogamy would always be fraught with enormous amounts of pain and enormous amounts of challenge. Even just trying to approach that interiorly. Yeah. Trying to do it with them.

It would always be ridiculed and, and you would be, you would be so exposed. You share yourself, you share intimacy with someone and you can't acknowledge what that means. You cannot even approach that with them, you know, and you would, whether you sleep in the same bed or you pursue all of these, these activities, you.

You can't, you have, you are trying to give of yourself, but you can't allow yourself to. Yeah. And it's this huge turmoil. So to answer your question about what were the relationships like, they were, they were two people using each other. And I would use them for these, these purposes of material pleasure or vain reputation building.

And I want you, I would want things that were more mm-hmm. , because I think we are naturally ordered towards monogamy. We are naturally ordered towards a successful relationship. And I would try to apply my ambition to that, but that would be met with their own wounds. And then I would be met with my own wounds and it would be very, very chaotic.

And, and that relationship that I mentioned that really drove me to the ground, you know, it was the same thing. It was two people who, who wanted the recognition of what. Monogamy could be, yeah. And the value of that relationship. But we were un unable to look at the other person as a person. You know, it's funny, after I did all this, I went to a church event where they would say, This is how you get married.

And they would give this list. Okay. And it would be like, I remember the first one was like, Can you take care of the person you're gonna be with? Can you fulfill your responsibilities? You know, are you financially sound, blah, blah, blah. And the bottom would be like, Do you have fun together? And the next one would be like, Do they make you feel good?

And I remember looking at that, and I would be like, I literally inverted. The entire thing. Wow. Yep. Like it was all about the immediate gratification and a complete postponement or dereliction of what The role of a relation, you know, the foundation of being responsible. Yeah. And I don't, I honestly, I don't really think I saw much of that growing up.

Yeah. And I had no way to pattern that at all. Makes sense. And, and I will say, like I mentioned, my parents are, are back togethers again and they've really changed too. Wow. And I think if this is what it was, like some whatever years ago, things might have been different, but it wasn't Yeah. Like, it was not that I had nothing to go off for.

Yeah. You were, you had to play the hands, You were adults. And I totally get that. And it makes so much sense because on such a deep level, the example of our parents is programmed into us, right? Mm-hmm. , it's, and that code can be rewritten. I, I really believe that. I've seen it. I've seen people come from really dysfunctional, broken families.

And then they learn about love, they learn about relationships, they learn how to love often through a lot of pain and failure. Um, and then they build something really beautiful. They build a really beautiful marriage. And that's where I see you on that path, which is amazing. But it makes so much sense that that example of how to build love, how to build a relationships, how to even build monogamy, a marriage, uh, would be so ingrained in you.

So again, it's inspiring that you're changing that. One thing I wanted to touch on, which I think resonates with a lot of our listeners, cuz they come from broken families primarily. Mm-hmm. , is that when you come from dysfunction, when you've endured trauma in your life, especially trauma related to relationships, Right.

Normal, healthy relationships can actually feel boring. Mm. Even on the level of our brains. They don't know all the neurobiology on this, but wow. Even on the level of our brains, it can. This isn't exciting. Like I'm used to yelling. I'm used to drama. I'm used to like, you know, like you said, partying and all these extreme experiences that going for a walk and getting ice cream is like pretty lame

Well, you know, I'm aesthetic so we wouldn't even do that now. There you go.

So, but, but that, it makes so much sense and that explained a lot of my relationships too, where I would be dating these like awesome girls, right? I had my own past where made a lot of sexual mistakes and a lot of regrets. And one thing I wanted to mention on that note to anyone listening right now who is maybe in that spot where you're living that lifestyle and making these, you know, kinda living that empty lifestyle, chasing pleasure, all that.

I'm not proud of the people that I've used. I've never like looked back and been like, Oh yeah, that was a happy experience. You know, that was, I was glad I used that person or let them use me. I always regret it. I, I've never felt happy about that and so, um, I think there's so, so much in your story that can show us a path of okay, that doesn't lead to something good.

And the people in that lifestyle, um, often end up very, very unhappy. Like, like you said. But um, it's an interesting point. They're always unhappy. Always unhappy. Yeah. If you are pursuing that type of relationship, you are unfulfilled, I think by definition. Yeah. Because if you're not trying to be with a person and give to a person, you're not fulfilling your purpose a hundred percent.

It sounded like you had another question. Sorry to cut you off. No, no, you're good. No, this is great. I'm just fascinating cuz some, so many of our listeners want more about love and relationships. I'm glad we're on this point and I know we're gonna get into more of it and let's, let's move there now actually.

So, I'm curious about what changed for you. Like you have had such a drastic change. That's why I'm so fascinated by your story. Most people don't do what you did. Mm. Like it. It's, it's amazing. And so I'm curious, like what changed? What were a couple things that helped you change and heal and grow? It's so crazy, you know, because if I, if I put you at the place I was at the day, I decided to change.

Like I said, I knew nothing of how to treat another person. I knew nothing about how to love myself. I knew nothing about

virtue at all. Perseverance, self-growth, nothing. I knew nothing about how to reject or refuse any drink, which was given to me. I did not know how to say no to going to a rave, any of these things. Yeah, I was zero and I was in this relationship, which. Was built upon all of these things. Mm-hmm. , and it sounds so dumb, but I honestly just, I, I lived in San Francisco.

I told you this, I lived in San Francisco when President Trump won the 2016 election. Mm-hmm. and living there at the time. I remember distinctly being out with friends and it was a group of us who all worked out together and we were all healthy eaters, vanity and living there. It was a mockery that this person was running for president and it was a foregone conclusion that Hillary Clinton would win and living there when that was not the case, and when things appeared to be going in a different direction, it wasn't pe People can't understand this.

Like, it wasn't like, Oh, that's weird. It was like, wow, my entire world view is wrong. When you, when when I lived there and many people I knew. That's why, I mean you see so many people had like a very virulent, violent reaction to it. Yes, that's irrational, we know that, but it's not as simple as like, well why can't you just be detached from politics?

Like when you lived in a metropolitan area like that. Yeah, it was, I remember distinctly waking up and I was like, There is something missing for me. And it is so strange and it's laughable that this was the reason. But I woke up that next day and I just had this question that I had to have answered and it was, what else is true that I am missing?

And from, From the strangest person and the strangest vehicle. Yeah, . God just reached me from that. Wow. What else is true that I am missing and. I was still with, of course, I was still with this person I was in this relationship with and all this stuff. And I just went down this deep intellectual curiosity about what motivates human behavior, to be honest.

Wow. What would motivate human behavior to vote for Donald Trump? And then it became what would motivate human behavior to call themselves conservative. And then it became what would motivate human behavior to model their life on Judeo-Christian values. And then it became what are Judeo Christian values?

And then it became what is the source of Judeo Christian values? And then it became, who is Jesus Christ? And then it became, What did he do while he was here on earth? And then it became what is the Catholic church? And then it became, how can I become a Catholic Christian? Wow. And that was a period, not of a long time, it was a very intense period of probably maybe less than a year.

I'm an extreme person. Yeah. That's amazing. And I just kept a asking this chain of questions and the person that I was with, Once I started getting into the, Who is Jesus, what is the Catholic church? When I got to that stage, she was like, No, this is not what I signed up for. You're crazy. I remember these things.

You've lost it, et cetera. And she moved out all her stuff. Okay. Which was everything. And so I was sleeping on the ground and I remember deep levels of pain. And I remember waking up. I was the, I was doing a startup at the time that was failing very little money. I don't even think I could make rent that maybe that month, maybe the next month.

I was like at the end. Yeah. And I remember waking up that one morning, maybe the right, the day after, and I said, This is the worst day of my life. And. I said to God, I won't say it's my first prayer because that would, that might be a little bit too dramatic, but I said, Interiorly, on your worst day, you chose me.

And on my worst day, I will choose you. And that is true. That truly happened that I was sleeping on the ground, maybe a mattress topper, now that I'm thinking about it. Fair enough. And literally every piece of furniture removed, just nothing going right. And from that day, I honestly can tell you to the best of my ability, I tried to be a better Christian every day.

I was not baptized. I maybe had attended church a little bit. Mm-hmm. , But I, I was not in communion with the church. But I was completely convicted of who Jesus was and what the Catholic church is, who Jesus is, and what the Catholic church is, and nothing was going to stop me from that day, from choosing God every day.

Incredible. And what did that do? Everything, because from that point, I have not had any alcohol. Basically, let's say, you know, plus or minus a few months, no alcohol, no drugs, nothing complete, completely clean. From that point I, as you mentioned, I'm now, I was celibate, no relationship for years, and then eventually decided to move forward with my fiance.

We've not kissed, our first kiss will be at the altar when we're married because God has given that grace. Of chastity and abstinence between us. And from that day, I, like I said, was broke, essentially like financially insolvent. And I built and sold a technology startup in the art artificial intelligence space.

And the only reason is because I had to let go of everything and it was God's will that those things happened. And, and many, many, many, many, many other phenomenal, incredible things, the amount of friends I made, the ability to live a virtuous life in the biggest ways and in the smallest ways. And it is all credit to God and it is all credit to that simple choice on that day.

Unbelievable. One thing I wanted to note is, , it took such honesty and humility for you to ask that question after the election, right? Like, like most people would just be like, pissed off and not want to go. I don't know anyone else that happened for Yeah, me neither. So that, that's incredible. And I think that's a grace, right?

Something that, that's really beautiful. And then you just kept seeking and you found the answers. And that's one thing I remember talking with you about too, It'ss, like, right? All these doubts, you had all these questions about whether it was the reliability of, you know, Jesus's story or different questions you had, You sought the answers and you found, you know, very validated scientific answers.

Yeah, that's exactly right. That's a great point to bring up that every, every step of the way, every question that I asked, I was, I was always marveled by how comprehensively it was answered. You know, I, I would, I was so, I was an atheist, by the way. I grew up in a very religious household. We didn't talk about this.

But I, Religion and Hinduism was very important to me. I was the president of the Hindu Students Association in my college. It was an extremely important part of my identity and who I was. And then I became an atheist. That justified my eism. By the way, it's easy to be self seeking and pleasure seeking when no one's watching.

It's very easy to justify that. So it was very part and parcel with the lifestyle that I lived. So as an atheist, and I was so skeptical that I did not believe that a man named Jesus Christ existed. And so the first step was to even an answer that and it, and again, I would just be struck by the coherency of the truth.

And then I would read the gospel according to John. That was, that was advice that was given to me. And I would read it completely and I would say, This is a perfect book. There's nothing wrong with it. How can that be? And every question I had, would be answered in the same way. Not partially, not, not incorrect.

Not, Yeah, not partially. But comprehensively. Wow. Fully, completely Every question, no cracks in the answers, No cracks, no blemish, nothing. Every question that I had about who Jesus was, about Christianity, about Catholicism would be answered utterly and fully. And I think this is actually what's very interesting, because I know people who have wounds not only around their parents, but they have wounds on the church itself.

Yeah. And so it makes it very difficult to actually look at it this way. And this was a great blessing that I had, that I had a complete Tabula Rossa at St. St. Thomas Aquinas would say a blank slate when it came to the Catholic church. I knew nothing, and my level of ignorance was profound. I didn't know what a sin was.

I didn't know what creation was. I didn't know what temptation was. I didn't know what any of it was. So the more I learned about it, I couldn't believe it. Mm-hmm. , it was so simple that. There is a fallen human nature that I had no ability to fight against. And it explained everything that I did. It explained the reason that I would seek all these satisfactions in this earth, and it explained why it never worked, and it explained how to get out.

That's what it was. Yeah. I mean, it was, it was truth in a way that would allow me to get out of what I was doing to myself. That's what I needed. That's what I wanted. And I wrote this in my journal. You know, I, I went back, like, I started keeping a journal around that time from that day that I mentioned.

And I, I thought that I would, I, I wanted to review it and I thought that my motivations for becoming Christian would be impure in some sense or would have some faults, but I was shocked to find when I look back and my thinking at the time that I wanted to change. That was the biggest thing. It wasn't so much this intellectual curiosity, which led me first in the thing, but that last question that I said, how do I become a Catholic Christian?

The reason I asked that question, I desperately wanted to get out from what my life was. I desperately wanted to stop ruining my life over and over again. I have been broke so many times, so many filled relationships, so many filled businesses. I was just, I have had enough of failing. Yeah. Incredible. Wow.

I'm, I'm honestly in awe, like your story is hard to believe in some ways. It's just, it's so incredible and I can relate on some levels. I remember when my parents separated when I was 10, 11 years old. It just shattered my world and I found a lot of comfort and escape in lust and pornography in particular, and some other sexual sins, and it was something that it worked in the moment.

To, to fill that emptiness, but man, it was, I'm miserable and I noticed I would get more miserable the more I did that stuff. Mm-hmm. , And I felt the same way you did in the sense that I want to change, like I want happiness. I, I was a 12 year old, 13 year old kid at the time, but I'm like, if I live my life this way, I, I want to die.

Because this is miserable. And so meeting people who are actually like happy and joyful was like, What is wrong with you people like, I want to be like you. And the, they were, you know, Catholic Christian friends who were, you know, praying, building virtue, They knew their faith, all that stuff. And that motivated me to do that.

But kinda like you said too, there were some impure intentions in the sense that mixed motives, right? Where I was like, Well, I want to like, fit in with these people. Mm. And I felt like such, such a fake mm-hmm. in the beginning, but in time it started to become more authentically me. I, I genuinely changed and it was really beautiful by God's grace, Of course.

So, so I can relate on that front. And I wanted to kind of complete the picture for people. Uh, what is your life like now that you've healed, that you've changed, that you've grown, that you've, you know, built virtue and now you have faith, Like all this stuff has changed in your life. What is your life now because of that?

Yeah, I mean, . The simple answer is that it's the complete opposite. And the question for us to ask is, is that really what you want? You know? And I think the answer for all of us is yes. And the reason I wanted to come on to this program is because I was really wandering aimlessly and the way my life like is like now is purposeful.

I mean that's, that's the foundational difference. There is a meaning to my life and my job and work and existence every day. Hopefully every moment is fulfilling that meaning and fulfilling that purpose. And I had no idea. No one ever told me. I had no idea, because I don't think the human mind can figure that out for themselves.

That's why God came down from heaven. because he gives us that message. And my life now, like I mentioned, is the ability to move past these grave mortal desires. Mm-hmm. and to begin working on the way of perfection, which is to let go of vanity, to let go of even the smallest inkling of anything which keeps me from being the greatest person I can possibly be, which is the person who represents and imitates Christ to the fullest degree possible.

And like him, it is a life of giving. You know, instead of living in a way that I am constantly pursuing self-interest, I am able to live in a way that is giving towards others. My fiance, the people I work with, whatever it is. My friends non-profits, whatever it is. And that is so much more enjoyable and it's so much more complete because before all I concerned myself about was satisfying myself.

And now because I have the confidence and because I anchor myself to what truly matters, I'm able to do what truly matters. You know, there's just, I, I look at it more like I was just cut every day at the stem. Every day I would wake up and I would just snip the fruit, snip the plant, right at the germination.

Mm-hmm. through just an, I mean, I had an impossible task. I had to control my desires and I couldn't. And now I just let that plant grow and it's about participating in a way that. Supports people around me and, and lives with great friendships and it's, it's a life that's fulfilled. I mean, I don't, I don't want to go into, uh, all the ins and outs of my life.

Sure. Cause I don't know that it's, it's necessarily relevant for everyone. But I think what is really great for anyone who has these, like really deep pains from their family that they see themselves trying to satisfy in ways that they recognize, recognize are wrong, That once you can stop doing that, that alone will make you happy.

To be honest. Yeah. Because it's not really about how God uses you in your career or what have you. Yeah. It's just merely the fact that he wants you at all. I mean, that's really the difference. Mm-hmm. , like what I've done in my career since what God has done in my career. You would, I would never have believed you to give, to help me become successful in exactly the realm that I wanted to be the founder of a technology company.

I never believed it, but that's for very few people. Yeah. You know that and that actually, to be honest, that gave me so much less satisfaction than I thought it would, and God is so good for showing me that. Wow. You know, the day after we sold our company, I think I told you I had like 250 net x, 250 X my net worth.

I'm not ashamed to tell you that. Yeah. It did very little for me. Wow. I mean, I couldn't believe that I wanted that for like 10 years did very little for me. What really mattered was just being able to go to church every day and being able to have the friendships and relationships that I have. And then through that, being able to build this really special relationship with my fiance that is actually what matters in my life.

That's beautiful. I had no capability to do that without my faith because. , my temptations, my desires would utterly destroy that. Yeah. Constantly. It's still that li life of meaning, like what, what I hear you saying is now you have a life full of meaning. You, you have a purpose that's bigger than yourself, a deep purpose that's bigger than yourself, which is beautiful.

Instead of taking in the ways in which you did in your former life, you're now giving, which is so beautiful, whether it's in your relationships and work wherever. And uh, and that's incredibly inspiring and I've found similar, uh, truths in my own life to where it's, yeah, it's so much more beautiful to live that sort of life and so much more fulfilling too.

It does require sacrifice. It does require pain. It does require that self-control of saying no to certain things, but there's so much more peace, so much more joy, so much more intimacy and like a depth of your life than living on the surface of pleasure and satisfaction in. Cheap sense of the word. So really beautiful.

One of the things I wanted to highlight though, in your life is just amazing. Like you went from where you were with all these different women partying, all that to now you have this beautiful woman in your life and the marriage. That alone I think is like so noteworthy. Mm. And so I wanted to circle back to that quickly.

How's that gone? Like your past, given your past to whatever level you're comfortable sharing to now building this beautiful relationship, how's that gone? And if you could touch on the whole no kissing thing. I know a lot of people when they were listening, they were like, maybe drop their phone or something.

Yeah. Great. It's a great thought. It's a great question. Everything about how I relate it to my, myself and everything about how he related to other people changed and the, I think the worst, the worst of who I was, was how I interacted, how I related to a romantic partner and. That has been changed completely because when I, when I receive the love of God and really understand and recognize love for what it is, yeah, the, the calling and the experience of loving another person is completely different.

And so, like I mentioned, my fiance and I, we met at church physically. We actually lived right down the street from each other. She was the girl next door. Nice And everything about how I approached our relationship, everything about how I approached romantic interests in her was the complete opposite of everything I had done before.

And first and foremost, it started with friendship. I was incapable before of having a friendship with a person who is a woman incapable. Because if, if we were not moving towards some sort of fleshly outcome, you were of No, there was no purpose in the friendship at all. Yeah. So that's just one that her and I started as friends, truly as friends.

And then from that, you can actually get to know someone. And then I, as I mentioned, I had no idea what a courtship was at all. And with her, I formally asked her if I could pursue her in a relationship. And then we formally went on dates and we formally did these things, building towards a specific future.

Beautiful. Which I was complete. I mean, I never did that before. I literally never did. I have never done that before until I did it with her. And how did I learn that? Through the principle of how you should treat someone. Because it wasn't really by example, It was by learning something new about how I should treat myself and how I should treat someone.

And then after that, it was about formally asking. , whether, you know, talking about marriage, you know, but really specifically going towards this outcome. Mm-hmm. , you know, talking about it, exploring it, and also specifically talking about our relationship with God. You know, bringing that into it constantly.

And when you do that, you think about virtues like chastity or obedience or serving the other person. You know, you think about all these higher callings of how you could interact with someone. Mm-hmm. , and you want to do that because you know, you understand. I understood finally what marriage was. Right. I had no idea.

No clue. Yeah. How would you? No idea. And I, and I also understood what sex was. I had no idea before I learned because the Catholic church taught me what does marriage mean? What does sex human sexuality mean? And so when you learn those things, then you are going to interact with someone very differently.

And it's a, And then it becomes a very natural conclusion that you won't express yourself, You, you'll express yourself physically in the most limited way that you can, in the most prudent, limited way you can. Because we must save everything possible for marriage. Everything we can possibly save for our marriage, we should.

That's what gives it meaning. I have, you know, some friends who, who are not in the church, who knew me from a foreign, and they live in a way that I used to with their partners, et cetera. Mm-hmm. . And they said to me, they asked, How will you know it's good if you never did it? What if it's not good? And I said, My friend, it is because we wait.

That it is good. Beautiful. It is because we place such an importance on it. that it will be good because kissing the value of it and sexuality, the value of it is not the physical human person alone. Mm-hmm. , it's the physical people and the ensoulment that they have. It's the, it's the supernatural person that's underneath.

Mm-hmm. and my fiance and I, from the beginning said, We will keep our marriage as secret as possible when it comes to the nature of this. And like I said, it's amazing. I literally never did that before. I never, I never even, that thought, never even occurred to me. Yeah. Before it's, no, it's such a foreign idea.

And, and, and by the way, what that means is I just have to decide to literal. It, it was just that simple. The the, the idea changed how I approached it mm-hmm. and then it was up to me whether I was gonna follow the idea or not. Yeah. No, it makes so much sense and there's so much more that we can say there.

One thing I did want to point to as well, that question that your friends would ask you, that's something I've heard before too, and I think it's, um, it's awesome to note that you're not marrying her for that purpose. Mm-hmm. , like that's a bonus, that's something beautiful that is a result of your love, but it's not like your, you know, sex life is gonna be the reason you're marrying her.

And so I think it's really beautiful cuz in, in, in our culture there's this pursuit of just pleasure and excitement in, in a sexual relationship. And it's very different in a marriage when you're, your sexuality is an expression of just love. Yeah. And you know, it's funny when you talk about the reason that you get married, She and I are very.

Okay. You know, when we, when we started our relationship, we're all friends in the same community and people couldn't believe it. They were like, This doesn't make any sense, . And they're like, If you guys break up, we're gonna choose her. I just want you to know that . Right. I can guess that and I, but her and I were like, I don't know what you guys are talking about.

This is gonna be great. And it had very little to do with our personalities. I mean, it's a true story of opposites attract, because the foundation of it though is that we both loved going to church and we both loved spirituality and relationship with God. And I have never met anyone who cares about that more than her.

And that was the reason. That was a motivation. Yeah. And it's very funny that it's, that's literally, I would never have thought about that before. It would've been exactly what that pyramid was before inverted and all these different check boxes. But in the end, yeah, it's just about. It takes three to get married, Bishop Fulton, Blessed Fulton Chinen, and it's just two people pointing towards God.

And that is the reason that we can choose to build a relationship in a completely different way than either of us ever have. I mean, she really has never had a serious relationship herself. Okay. So it's new territory for both of us. And the way to do it is just, it's just two people pointing towards God.

It's amazing, and I think there's such a good lesson in what you said too, for all of us listening, and that is whatever you build your relationship upon is what it will stand on. Yes. So if it's built upon fun and pleasure and all that, once that goes away, the relationship will crumble. Exactly. And so building it on such a deeper purpose on a life of love, really of meaning, of giving of yourself, there's really nothing better.

Yeah. That's so beautiful. Yeah. And that's, That's exactly right. Everything else is temporary and. That's, I mean, I've said it here on this program, I went through a profound change and I would say one of the biggest things was that I just let go of everything. Yeah. I really let go of everything, and I know that's very hard for people.

I think I mentioned to you that I lost my identity completely. I just had nothing of, I did not know who I was, and my identity now is centered completely on the Catholic church, and that's hard. I know that's hard for people. That's a, that's a very foreign thing. My hope is, especially if you've been born with a faith and you were introduced to it as a, as a child, that you can make a step towards that and not need the humiliation and self destruction that I needed.

That's like, and I feel like this audience really is an audience that resonates with me very strongly because I. I was going nowhere. Yeah, I mean that's the, that's the gone God's honest truth. And I am doing something now that I didn't learn on my own. I didn't learn from observing at all. I honestly learned it, like I said, by just receiving Catholic teaching.

Whether it's very practical, like within the last century on marriage and sexuality or something that we've known for a long time. I mean, everything about how I approach my relationship with her is all from the Catholic church, everything, because I had nothing else. And anyone can choose that you, I mean, just if you feel like you're really far away, you just have to go to confession.

I mean, it's not that far away from you. It's amazing. I wish we could talk forever. We have to close down, but a few final questions. One, if your parents were listening right now, uh, what would you say to them? What would you want them to know? Ha. That would be a very tenuous, painful discussion, unfortunately.

Fair enough. That's a, that would be very hard. What I would tell to them is that I, I do love you and I I'm so far beyond blaming you anymore, and I'm so far beyond holding you accountable. Like I, we gotta get past this because everyone is, is imperfect. Every person on earth has imperfect parents, myself included, and we can, if we want, argue about who is more imperfect and how my wounds, and, and this was something very huge for me, by the way.

I have a spiritual, spiritual director who said, You have a legitimate wound from your family. And I never thought about that until he said that, that there is such a thing as a legitimate grievance. But if my parents were listening to this, I would recognize my legitimate grievance. Personally with God, but I would tell them, I've moved past this.

Let's all just move past this because there's no point in trying to understand whose grievance is more legitimate or staying attached to it. I mean, that was a huge, huge change for me through the Catholic Church, was actually to acknowledge that I had a legitimate grievance and then see how easy it is, how important it is to move past it.

Let's not say it's easy. No, that would be unfair. Sure. But it is possible for sure. Yeah, and that's amazing that there's an incredible lesson in that because I think a lot of people get stuck and they feel like, Oh, we can't move beyond this. But yeah, I to, I agree. It's solely possible. There's so much more.

I'd love to ask you, uh, if people wanna follow you, how could they follow you and what are you working on now? I know there's a lot of parents who do listen to this show, and I know you have, uh, a lot of advice when it comes to online safety and things like that. I'm not sure if you wanted to touch on that or not feel free, but yeah, what are you up to now and how can people follow you?

You know, I don't have any social media. I'm, I do a lot of content creation, and the biggest part is to just share my love of our faith. If you are interested, I've started another company, which is called PDay email, www.feedday.email. And this is a software platform for email calendar file share. It's similar to like a Google workspace or Microsoft office, and we've built it our own, and we're a Catholic company with Catholic values.

So this is something that if you have a small business or you're worried about big tax censorship, things like that, that's what that's about. But I actually don't talk about it in all my appearances because for me it, it's more just about the story and it's a beautiful story. And in closing out, just wanna ask you, if you could go back in time and talk to that younger you who is living that empty life, who is just seeking all those pleasures and success, what would you.

You're an idiot. . We're done. That's it. , You know what I would say to him? And there's, there's so many different times, different time periods, so I'll say, let's say to the adult, the big change for me was learning how to drive and getting a driver's license because that independence from that point on, there was a lot of chaos.

But whether it was high school or it was in my, you know, my mid twenties when I was in really the, the depths of it, what would I say to myself? I would say, I dunno what he would've listened to. And I tell that to my parents too. I've been very open with them about doing drugs and it is really psycho lifestyle.

I, I've told him the stuff which is very hard for them and they feel bad, but I tell them, and this is confidently, I would never have listened to anything you said. So, but what I would still say to myself at that time, and it would've been the most important thing to know, is that I deserved better. I think the, the, the most dec, the most difficult thing that I didn't understand is that I deserved better than to, to hurt myself so much.

And I deserved more than to ruin my life all the time. I ruin my life over and over again, and I think it's so hard to receive love my friend, like we think that it's easy, but it's actually the most difficult that's, that is actually becoming a saint, is to receive the love of God completely with no filter and no imperfection.

It's very difficult and I, I would do anything I could to say to myself at that time when I was sober that you deserve better. Like you, you deserve better because you are made in the image and likeness of God. Not because you're so smart, not because you went to this good school, not because you make this money, blah, blah, blah.

No, it is just simply because God has made you in his image and likeness that you deserve better, and from that you can do anything. That's what I would tell myself, that you don't have to harm yourself in this way.

There are so many great lessons in that interview from Kalas, and a few of them are one. Every one of us is made for authentic life and nothing else will satisfy All the material. Things that we could have won't satisfy. All the pleasure won't satisfy, all the excitement won't satisfy. We're made for more than all of.

Another lesson related to that is something called the personalistic norm. It sounds fancy, but it's really simple. The only adequate or proper response to another human person is love, which in simple terms really just means desiring and doing what is ultimately best for that person. And the opposite of love is using the person for your own pleasure or for your own good.

Another lesson is if you wanna transform, if you wanna heal, if you want to grow, you have to start by being brutally honest with yourself and humble, because without facing yourself as you are and being humble enough to admit that you're wrong or you're broken in this area or that area, you're gonna keep feeling stuck in life or in your relationships.

Another lesson, whatever you build your relationship on, it will stand on. So if it's built on pleasure, when pleasure goes away, or lessons, it will fall apart. If it's built on good looks, when those looks change or go away, it will fall apart. If it's built on feelings, when those feelings fade. It will fall apart.

But if it's built on authentic love and a desire to really help the person that you love become the best version of themselves, it will last. And so be careful what you build your relationships. And finally, you can heal, You can grow, you can change, you can transform. You can even move beyond the hurt and the trauma in your family.

You can even begin to heal your relationship with your parents like Kala did in his life. And it isn't easy, but it is possible. And we're here to guide you through all of that. One resource that my nonprofit resort offers to anyone from a Broken Family is my book. It's titled, It's Not Your Fault, A Practical Guide to Navigating The Pain and Problems From Your Parents' Divorce.

And the sad truth is that for a lot of teens and young adults, the most traumatic thing that they've endured in their life is their parents' separation or divorce, or even just a lot of brokenness at home. But nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and all the problems that stem from their family's breakdown.

And without that guidance, they continue to feel alone and struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping, relationship struggles, and so much more. And I experience these problems myself. It really shouldn't be this way that young people who've been through this feel alone. My book, It's Not Your Fault, is an answer to that problem.

It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by teens and young adults who come from broken families, such as After my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted, and adequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me. What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life events?

How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage? And so many more questions, and the content itself is based on research, expert advice, and real life stories. And after reading, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents', divorce, separation, or broken marriage, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems.

They'll learn healing tactics that they can use to feel whole again. They'll learn how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God, and how to make important decisions about their future. And so if you wanna buy the book or get the first chapters free, just go to restored ministry.com/books.

Again, that's restored ministry.com/books, or just click on the link in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

#081: What to Do If Fear Holds You Back in Life and Relationships | Dr. Rebecca Showalter, PsyD

If you’re from a broken family, you’ve likely dealt with a lot of fear. For so many of us, that holds us back in life and relationships. At the core of that fear is usually the fact that we don’t feel safe. 

In this episode, a psychologist joins us to discuss why so many people struggle to feel safe and how that affects their life and relationships. We also touch on:

• What exactly is healing? Dr. Showalter explains 3 aspects of healing.

• Is healing actually possible, or are we doomed to merely manage symptoms? 

• What to do if you feel afraid or embarrassed about seeing a therapist

• A healing tool called the Safe and Sound Protocol

Sign up for Therapy or the Safe and Sound Protocol with Dr. Showalter

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Links & Resources

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• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Dr. Rebecca Showalter

  • Website

  • Safe and Sound Protocol in Denver

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

if you're like me and you come from a broken family, you've likely dealt with a lot of fear and so often that fear holds us back in life and relationships and at the core of that fear is usually the fact that we don't feel safe. And we've seen this again and again with the young people from broken families that we work with at restored. It's a real struggle to debilitating struggle. And so in this episode, a psychologist joins us to discuss why so many people struggle to feel safe and how that affects their life and relationships. She also answers the questions what exactly is healing? She hits on the three aspects of healing. What are common misconceptions about healing? We talk about how healing is actually quite intense, especially at first it's healing actually possible are those of us who feel broken, doomed to merely manage symptoms. What should I do if I feel afraid or embarrassed about seeing a therapist and then she offers a healing tool that involves music called the safe and sound protocol. Really great stuff in this episode. You're gonna learn a lot from this interview. So keep listening. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce separation or broken marriage so you can feel whole again, I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. Thanks so much for listening. This is episode 81. If this podcast or other resources from this sort of helped you. We'd love to hear how they've helped you and the benefits of sharing how we've helped you is that it gives us insight into what's most valuable for you so we can do more of it helps us set strategy for the future so we can keep serving you and it shows people the effectiveness of our work which convinces others to use our content and our tools. If you will share your story here's how just go to restored ministry dot com slash testimony restored ministry dot com slash testimony. Just answer the quick questions about how restored has helped you. It can be anonymous by the way, totally your choice and then we'll turn that into an anonymous blog article. So if you want to share how restored has helped you just do that Today restored ministry dot com slash testimony. My guest today is dr Rebecca show walter since she was a child. Dr Rebecca had a fascination with people and their stories and later in life she graduated from the Institute for the psychological Sciences in Arlington Virginia where she studied the human person on a philosophical and scientific level. After receiving her doctorate in clinical psychology, she became the director of testing at Saint Raphael counseling in Denver colorado. She now has a private practice in the Denver area. She's trained in various therapy methods including emotion focused therapy in her personal therapy, Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. That's E. M. D. R therapy. Internal family systems therapy and non directive, child centered play therapy. On that last note, she has a passion for the psychological development of Children and has seen that method of therapy help Children find significant growth and change in just a handful of sessions. Dr Rebecca also works with parents on how to play therapeutically with their Children and build secure attachment which basically means a strong and loving bond between them that's built on trust. In the 15 plus years she's spent in psychology she's learned that her ability to help others heal and grow is actually dependent upon her own healing and growth. She's also learned that she still has a lot to learn. So here's my conversation with dr Showalter Rebecca. It's so good to have you on the show. Thanks for making time for us. Thanks Joey. It's really great to be here. I'm excited to learn more about the particular therapy that you offer and then as well talk about healing but before we get to that I have kind of an interesting question for you and that is why do you do what you do? I'm always interested to hear, kind of what makes big bill tick and what drives them? What what's your purpose? So what do you do, what you do? Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's it's a different answer now from when I initially started I think going down this path I had a strong sense of of really wanting to do something, you know I guess just sounds kind of cliche but important with my life and something that really helped other people and in general, you know, I always had good feedback about being a good listener and being a calming presence and really helping people and yes, so, so initially I was in college, I was initially a business major and then at some point I realized, no, I think I just want to be a therapist and so I switched over to psych, but I was kind of ambivalent about it. So then I ended up doing english literature, but that that desire to kind of do that was still there and and I pursued it and now honestly, I would say I'm I'm fascinated by human development and the ability to to change and grow and heal and the sky is the limit kind of an idea and how far can we really, how far can I go personally, and how far can can my clients grow and change and heal? And I really believe people have the power to substantially change their lives and change the direction that their life is going and reveal even mid mid life kind of thing. That's certainly been the case for me. I just can't imagine having to have continued to live the life I was living for a while. The gift and help that psychology and therapy has been for me is it's hard to put words to it. It's been really profound for me and I love being in a place where my work is both continuing to do that work for myself and helping others in that way? I also do psych assessments, which I just find completely fascinating. I think it's wonderful that we have all these tools and measures that can really help get behind defenses and help somebody understand themselves in a way that just simply looking in a mirror or being in some kind of echo chamber will never help them attain. So yeah, that makes that makes so much sense. And I was talking with a friend recently where, you know, especially when there's some illness of physical illness, let's say you're dealing with, it's so freeing to be able to put a name to it, to say this is your diagnosis, this is what's wrong and there's such fear and uncertainty and not knowing and being like something's wrong with me? I can tell, but I just don't know what is. So the psych assessments make so much sense. I'm excited that maybe discuss that a little bit more. I love what you said about human potential about our ability to change and grow and heal and all that. And I think some people struggle to believe in that at all. And so I want to talk with you a little bit later about healing in itself, like what does that mean? And how do we go about it? And you know, what are some of the misconceptions, but before we get there, I'm curious about the therapy that you practice for those of us who haven't heard about it. Can you give us a general review of what's safe and sound protocol with the safe and sound protocol is and how it can help someone. You bet the first element there the first misnomer is that it's not actually a therapy, it is an intervention but it doesn't stand alone as a therapy. The safe and sound protocol is it's a series, it's five hours of music that has been filtered so that the frequencies and it have been changed. So it's major cover it's it's covers of music that anybody would would recognize from the sixties seventies eighties nineties. The kid version is Disney music but their covers and those covers have been altered or modified so that the frequencies are different. This it's born out of the poly vagal theory which um dr Stephen Porges is is the sort of leading, I'm not even entirely sure what he is. He might be a neurobiologist or a neuropsychologist. Something along those line. Anyway he's what they've discovered is that the middle ear muscles around your ear drum are like any other muscle in your body. It can become very good at doing something if you practice it a lot and it can be it can atrophy it cannot do something at all. Well if you don't use it and so people who have been in traumatic situations now that could be major trauma like war zone trauma. you know, brutal car accidents, the immediate loss of a loved one. It can also be sustained criticism, sustained fighting, sustained tension, sustained all these ways in which we can experience disruptions, significant disruptions inter personally with other people. Um So for people who grew up in a really contentious household or a lot of fighting or a lot of shaming those are in this way of understanding the human person, those are very traumatic experiences um and their chronic which is even worse. And so what happens is over time those muscles in the middle ear around the eardrum become very good at hearing low frequencies sounds of danger and and maybe even very high frequencies and that's another, another range in which danger sounds reside, that those muscles become less good at hearing the sounds of safety that are around them. So in the human, in the human voice or in the gentle breeze, just all kinds of ways that that there are actually sounds of safety. So this is what we consider a very bottom up approach to treating somebody. This is an understanding that we cannot really access through just talking. So, so traditional talk therapy methods kind of fall apart at this level because it takes a lot to really even know how your central nervous system is responding to sound. Like that's if you were to just ask any sort of person off the street, they would have very little unless they've really done a lot of bodily somatic work, they would have very little access to knowing how their system is responding to sound. So what they've done in this music is they've modified it and and create and arranged the frequencies such that it's actually training your middle ear to tighten back up so that it can hear these sounds of safety so that it knows that the human voice that it's hearing is actually a safe human voice. For example, example, I'd like to give is so we have a difference. This is very physiologically based. So that's back to this understanding that we there's the parasympathetic zone which hopefully we live in most of the time, that's the rest and digest. That's where social engagement can happen. You can be at ease with people around you having a good time hanging out with people. Then there's the sympathetic level and that's the fight or flight and that's when there's a threat or danger. But you can overcome it by either fleeing or fighting. And then the third level of activation if you will is the free zone and that's when the threat is so large that you can't overcome it. And you have to freeze. For example, if some if the fire alarm to go off in the house, that's automatically going to send somebody into this sympathetic fighter flight. Um either put out the fire or or get out of the house. Now let's say you you look around and you realize, oh, there's absolutely no fire. It's just that the bacon smoking a little more, you know, then it's okay. I'm going to go over and turn the bacon down, fan the smoke detector so that it stops beeping and then idea we should be able to move right back into the parasympathetic. There is no threat. We're totally safe, everything's fine. But what's the reality for most people is they've been triggered and they're not going to move back down into safety. They're going to be on edge even though, even though cognitively they know, okay, it was just the smoking bacon, everything's fine. There's no fire. Their system doesn't know how to re enter safety to reenter the parasympathetic. Um, it's for a lot of people, it was just never safe to do that. It was always safer to stay on alert in some way. Um, so this music is really designed to help people to help people system automatically learn how to shift back into safety when the signs of safety are present so that people don't have to walk around living in a state of tension fight or flight fear anxiety, depression if it moves up into that free zone. Amazing. Thank you for explaining that. I love the science behind it too. I think that's so important to talk about as well because a lot of people don't have that understanding. I can see this left and right, even in my own life coming from a broken family, but also in the lives of the young people that we serve, how we seem to be on that extra alert mode that kind of looking around, scanning around for some disaster, just always on guard. And one of the ways in which I've seen that be the most devastating the lives of these young people and even in my own life is how it affects your relationships, which you want to touch on in a, in a second. But first it seems like the main focus of all of this protocol is to make people feel safe. And maybe it's an obvious question. I know you touched on a little bit, but why do you think this is a struggle for for so many people, especially people who come from broken families? Well, safety. That's in some ways that's the initial task in, in our life as as young Children as infants is to is to feel safe. I guess task is probably not the right word there, but but where that's the equilibrium we're trying to achieve all the time as as babies is safety. And with a really well regulated set of parents or caregivers, that's usually pretty easy, they're safe. They're providing a safe environment. They react really positively to everything the child does. Even if it's cry even if it's a certain point, babies have teeth and you know, they figure out the teeth and they start to bite. And if you got parents that respond really well to all of that and continue to create safety. Well that gets into some of the other theorists work like Bowlby and and other psychologists who have, who have discovered this whole area of attachment theory and what is required for Children to be to be able to develop and strong safe attachment is crucial for people to develop, to be able to explore, to be able to learn to be able to understand. So safety underlies all of that. Safety is so basic. It's so important when Children are asking questions, they're almost always asking questions of safety instead of information, even though it sounds like they're asking for information, You know, so so adults can get kind of tripped up in our adult ways. We're sort of like, oh, providing a ton of information to Children where really the Children are are wondering and trying to find evidence that they're safe. Now. If you grow up in an environment where that's not the case, the parents aren't particularly well attuned, Maybe they haven't, I haven't worked through all of their own difficulties and triggers. And so if they're easily triggered by something the child does and then they react very badly. All of that is giving feedback to the child that you're not safe. You're not safe. This isn't entirely safe. This it's certainly not safe to have those feelings or it's certainly not safe to say that thing and I want to be clear here. There doesn't need to be physical abuse. It doesn't need to get to that level for a child to be aware that the environment is not safe. Ask any child any sensitive child walks into a school room full of kids that are ready to tease and pick on and it's certainly an experience of that school room is not safe even though physically they may be entirely safe, so to speak. So yeah, safety safety is required for all of this. Like all of these positive movements in somebody's life, potential growth in order to meet your potential to get curious to ask questions to learn to explore and to and to be at rest to, to stay kind of extended periods of rest and see how that, you know what that brings to a person's body. So it doesn't take much unfortunately to disrupt a person's experience of safety because especially emotional safety and I do think that that's because a lot of people are not very emotionally grounded and attuned to themselves. And so if you do or say something that disrupts their quote unquote inner peace, that could be an argument made that they don't really have inner peace if that's the case. But if you do as a child, if you do or say something that just triggers mom or dad triggers a caregiver triggers the teacher and then they just kind of flip or turn or you see a side of them that's scary. Yeah, You just learned very quickly that, that being on high alert is the safest way to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not safe even. Yeah, it makes so much sense. And I'm just thinking through some of the research on divorce and the people that we've worked with as well that this rings. Um, so true. And one of the fascinating things when you said that there doesn't need to be physical abuse, obviously there's situations, a lot of the researchers breakdown divorces into kind of two buckets where there's high conflict divorces and low conflict divorces, which I'm sure you're familiar with. And what one researcher paul Amato from Penn State, he's a sociologist there. He studied this extensively, What he found actually was fascinating that high conflict divorces where there's abuse, there's violence, there's a lot of overt drama and conflict. Um, he said those situations, um, you know, a child can actually benefit from a separation obviously because they need to get to safety. And the divorce in itself though it is still impactful and it can be traumatic. Um, it's not the most traumatic, the most traumatic situation when it comes to your parents marriage falling apart is the low conflict situation where there's more covert problems. There's not the violence abuse. Um, there's not a lot of screaming conflict fighting that way. There are problems, not to minimize those in any way, but to the child that looks like, well things seemed fine. And then dad was gone. And you know, our family has fallen apart and he he what he says is that they found that those low conflict situations are actually the most impactful, the most traumatic on the child. Because it seemed going back to your point, it seemed like everything was safe and then it wasn't. And then what we've observed working with young people from broken families is that you go through life almost thinking, well, family was supposed to be the most stable thing in my life and if that fell apart, well what won't fall apart and then we kind of get are on edge in that mode that you said, always thinking that there's a disaster around every corner. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. I do think that it's the best way to put this Children are aware of discrepancies and dissidents, just like everybody else. They may not have the language for it. They may not be able to put words around it, but especially a family where um it's not talked about, it's kind of implied or understood or there's some kind of delusion going on that the family is doing just fine, that it's a great family, even even a positive family life and then all of a sudden, you know, one day that the child hears, Oh no, mom or dad are moving out. I mean, first of all, that's abandonment and that that will always I mean that's that's the scariest thing for a child in some ways is to be abandoned by a parent, even if it's even if the parent is nearby and sees them frequently, um just the act of moving out of the home is is there's no way getting around that, that's an abandonment and then the child is left with this understanding that yeah, there's there's this strong dissonance. We say things we we we pretend like things have been one way and and really the reality is things have been differently and to put it in context that the reaction of that is much like you're being gas lighted by somebody, like wait a minute, what you're saying is not real is not true. The things you've been telling me, you know, we're fine. Mom and dad are fine, we're fine, we just have these fights. You know, all parents fight, you know, this is okay. Um you know, these low conflict fights don't or divorces maybe don't always include those elements, but but something like that where you're, you're sort of believing that okay, we're in the realm of normal here, we're in the realm of everything's pretty much okay. And then things turn on a dime. I mean that that that rattles somebody's sense of reality to their core really, that makes a lot of sense to me that those would be worse. That that the fallout from that would be worse than its highly contentious. We all see it, that it's really clear that nobody is doing well here. Yeah. And and there's no pretense about it. Yeah, I'm with you there and obviously both are tragic and we both would say that, but I can definitely observe the different effect that the, you know, the split up itself would have on the child. Thinking back to the point you made about Children always seeking safety. It makes so much sense. My wife and I, we have a daughter who's a little over one and she's not talking much yet. She'll say words and things, but it's really beautiful to kind of just observe the different things that she wants or the way in which she's communicating. And I can totally see that threat of safety just when mom leaves the room, she's like get so sad or when, you know, I need to go go out for a little bit. So I'm jumping in the car. She's you know, like, no, I don't want you to leave so I can see how she feels safe with both of us there. And I've noticed even we're not always able to be together as a family because if I'm working or you know different. My wife's doing chores or going shopping, whatever. We're not always able to be together as a family. But when, when all three of us are together, she just loves it. There just her face looks different, her eyes even look different, she's she feels like so safe and content. And the other day we were just, you know, we're playing around and we were all like laying in our bed and she just was laying in between us and she just looked so happy and she was just playing like normal. And so you know, that would be an amazing thing to to be able to experience throughout the breath of our life. But obviously there's tragic things that happen and so I want to talk about that a little bit. Being in that place of not feeling safe. How does that affect your day to day life and relationships? Going back to that point earlier, it's going to be unique to everybody in some ways we can say some general things, but in therapy, the work of therapy is really helping somebody unravel and unpacked and really understand the cost of it to their own lives, what what their specific costs are for not feeling safe. For feeling on edge. You're going to get a lot of different presentations of what that looks like for some people, there's going to be, there's going to be sort of an anxious need to constantly be validated or or or given some kind of sign that everything's okay. So this, you know, I'm not, I'm sure you've had people on your podcast before that have talked about attachment styles, but this is the anxious attachment person. Yeah. Who who just can't, even if if everything's good for a few seconds or for minutes, um, as soon as the other person walks away, as soon as the other person is having a thought that sort of carrying them off into the distance and their face changes, that really rattles people who have this anxious attachment, you know, what's going on inside of them? Have things changed now? You know, if if you grew up in an environment where things could turn on a dime, you're always waiting for things to turn on a dime, even if the person you're with is is steady and stable and and has has a lot of emotional regulation. Some people are just going to shut down and avoid and and be distant. Um not engaged at least not engage in any deeply meaningful way. Some people are just going to pretend that what they learned is that if you pretend well enough, it really makes everybody happy and and and that's the best way to happiness is when people around you are happy. So you just pretend everything's okay. Find things to talk about or say that that will please other people. Yeah, you've got people get strong dependency issues. You have people who have strong avoidant issues. There's a lot that goes into what creates different disorders, but almost certainly anxiety and depression are going to show up. Maybe some of the more significant disorders of borderline personality disorder is a common personality disorder, which is really center is that the one of the central problems for somebody with borderline personality disorder is the desire to be very close to somebody else, but the inability to trust there's a lot of anger there, there's a lot of fear of abandonment. So those are some different ways it can present, makes so much sense. And again, you're speaking our language, all of our audience members either come from broken family or they know someone who does and yeah, even thinking back through my own story and pretty vulnerable with our audience and an attempt to hopefully be someone of a guinea pig so they can learn. But I remember I was 10, 11 years old when my parents separated and I couldn't have put it in towards them, but I remember feeling abandoned and wanted and like I just wasn't good enough and in the months and years that followed, I dealt with all sorts of problems you named a lot of them, emotional problems, anxiety, depression, loneliness, a lot of anger dealt with relationship struggles, like, I remember as a kid after my parents separated and later got divorced, I remember thinking I'll never get married. Like if this is how it ends, why in the world would I want that so painful and then, you know, struggling to trust people to be vulnerable when it came time to, you know, start dating and entering the serious relationships, I just was so terrified and haven't heard a lot of people talk about that and the way you talk about is really beautiful and accurate about how yeah, we go and we have a lot of fear of love and relationships and vulnerability that can hold us back from really forming those healthy relationships. I know I had to fight through a lot of that. I found a lot of healing along the way and guidance from my mentors and therapists, but um but it's a lot, it's a lot to go through and um um I yeah, so everything you're saying, certainly tracking with you there and I you can see how going through that trauma and causes you not to feel safe and they're not feeling safe impacts your everyday life and your relationships so much. And I'm sure we could take the entire show to talk about that before we transition into healing any final thoughts on that. I like that you brought up loneliness. I think that that's really key. I think these experiences leave people feeling incredibly alone and unable to trust the very thing that rescues you from loneliness. Unable to trust relationships, wow. Yeah, and this whole idea that connection and intimacy is really the antithesis or maybe the antidote to trauma is so important to focus on because if we're running from it, you know, we're never going to find the healing and the growth that we we all long for. Yeah, one final thought here along those lines there a child can endure and come out of almost any traumatic experience relatively unscathed emotionally. If they have a very highly resourced and attuned attachment figure, essentially parent or or father mother caregiver that is in the moment a child can sustain and a tremendous amount of trauma, whether you know, however, that comes about if they're doing it in the arms of somebody who is who is very healthy and attached and providing the antidote as it's happening, providing the connection, the security, the love. Yeah, and that's what we want to recreate in therapy in the therapy setting is that we want to help people finally be able to fully process out the trauma because they're in an environment where that's actually possible that the safety and the strength of the connection, the strength of the attachment is strong enough to endure the trauma, whatever the trauma maybe amazing, it makes so much sense. One of the trauma therapists that we refer people to, that we've had on the show, she says that what makes the trauma trauma is how it gets taken care of or lack thereof. And so it seems to go in line with everything that you just said, which I think is is really beautiful and shows the importance of having those relationships, we could talk forever, but I want to be respectful of your time transitioning into healing? I'm curious how do you define healing personally? My what what makes the most sense for me is to is to start with, how does healing just happen in nature when the human brain doesn't have to get involved and figure it out. How does it happen? And you know, there's tons of evidence for that everywhere. The body can heal itself of physical injuries, a lot of physical injuries without intervention. In fact, usually what we have to do is get out of the body's way. You know, if there's a significant cut, we just have to make sure that that cuts protected so that it can heal and we all know those, you know, I grew up with, my brother is just one of my brothers is just year younger and he and his best friend all throughout our adolescents, their legs were just constantly torn up because they would just re itch all these bug bites and all these scars and they just were forever reopening these wounds. And of course girl, I just found it so disgusting. I didn't want to be anywhere near them. Like if we had to sit next to each other in a car or something else, but that's that's a good example of we can prevent healing physically. We actually don't do much to make our bodies heal themselves that that's really all there. If the trauma is significant enough then we do need to intervene. You know, if the bone breaks to the degree that it needs to be reset then we certainly need to do that. So it's not, you know, we have er s for a reason we can't you know rely on on the body to be able to heal everything at least quickly enough. You know, we might lead out first. So that's so one of the things we want to do emotionally is understand, okay, what do we need? How do we need to protect the natural process that the body goes through? How do we clear away the things that would get involved? And one of the things that gets in gets in the way of of healing is our own defenses that early on we learned a system of defenses that are really crucial and helpful to survive different aspects of our childhood, whether it's at the home, whether it's at school or anywhere else, we want to be very mindful of the defense structures that were necessary as Children but are no longer necessary. In fact are impacting, impeding, hindering our own emotional healing. So that's one layer of it. The other layer is another layer is what does emotional healing look like? How how do when we remove all obstacles, are we prepared for what happens? And this is a difficult area because to heal emotionally you have to feel there's no way else through that. You have to do what you weren't able to do at the time. So as an example if a child is if there's a thunderstorm happening and the child in it's right overhead and the booms are allowed and the lightning is sharp and lighting up the sky. It's going to terrify a child. The healthiest way for a child to adapt to that is to feel all that fear as it's happening with. And in the presence of in the arms of the parent or the caregiver who can say, I know it's really scary, it's okay that it's scary. I'm right here and I'm going to do everything I can to protect you and the whole idea, don't be afraid, don't be afraid, don't cry, don't cry, don't be angry, don't be angry. All of that trains us. That the very thing that we need to heal us is wrong is bad. So we have to, so we really have to relearn that. And this is where it gets tricky talk therapy is it can, it can take, it takes a very skilled therapist I think and a very willing client, a client who's got a lot of motivation to really persist in retraining somebody's system to feel when they believe that such an odd of such a deep, you know, primary consciousness level. They believe that feeling is not good, it's not safe, they're not actually supposed to feel. So, so there's some reworking there and I'll bring in one more element to this question which I think is important in psychology, we are focused on healing, but we're also focused on development. And so one of the leading questions we have when going in working with a client is how has this person advanced through their own development? Have they advanced or is there places in ways in which their development has been stunted? Are they underdeveloped? So if you have a lot of significant amount of emotional abuse um that you've been, you know, at the mercy of growing up, most likely you're embedded in a community and around people that aren't emotionally developed themselves or else they certainly wouldn't be allowing that environment to be as it is. And so it's very hard to learn how to develop emotionally around other people who aren't emotionally developed. So part of healing in a way is is actually just growing and developing thriving. Like for example, I broke my collarbone a few years ago and uh for a few months I had to I was protecting it as it was as it was healing. And at some point the bone totally healed and and the muscles were totally find around it. But my shoulder was still sitting out of place because I had all the muscles that were supposed to hold it kind of back where atrophy had lost all of their development. So even though healing quote unquote had taken place, I was unable to access my potential in my shoulder until I redeveloped those muscles. So yeah, so, so he'll, the question about healing is really important, but the language of development is almost always alongside of it for us as therapists. That's amazing. I love every point that you had. And One of the things that always fascinated me when it comes to trauma is how we can really act out of that part of ourself that was enduring that trauma. So, for example, if you know, I was 10, 11 years old when my parents separated, if I'm triggered in the right way, and you know, let's say that trauma hasn't been processed, I've done a lot of work to do that, but Let's just say it hasn't been processed. I can act out of that 10, 11 year old kid and like you said, with the defensiveness and everything that we need to really go beyond, it can be, it can be a real struggle and we see that a lot of the young people that we work with, and so it makes so much sense that that's a piece of it. And then also really feeling your feelings. I love that you touched on that because yeah, I think that feelings can become suspect and it can be this and you articulate that better than I can, but um it can get to a point where we maybe prefer to feel numb. I know for a long time, you know, as a teenager, going through everything with my family. I remember just periods of feeling so numb and uh and I've seen that a lot of the young people that we've worked with. But then finally the last point you made about healing, not just being about taking care of the wound itself, but all the other effects and continue to grow and to develop to the point where you're not that 10, 11 year old kid anymore, you're now that fully formed adults who has emotional, who has that affect maturity. And so I love how there's different components to it. I'm sure we could spend all day going through through all of these. But uh yeah, I love how you broke that all done. Yeah, awesome. I think you're right on with that understanding and thank God for the going numb. That association is crucial to getting through. It won't get you everywhere you want to go in life, but for the period of time you're trying to survive it's it's an increase, it's animated. It's a miraculous invention by the human mind really help us get through. Yeah, it's a great defense mechanism. Yeah. I always, when I'm talking with young people, I always say that imagine if you felt everything that your body can feel at that moment, you would be completely overwhelmed. It would be horrible. And so I'm with you there. What misconceptions are there around healing and the healing and growth process. Yeah, that's, that's a big question, let's see. Yeah, let's think about the ones that are most helpful here, I think probably the one that's most painful for people is this sense that once you're out of the war zone, so to speak, you should be fine. It's no longer happening. You're no longer there. That was such a long time ago. That was, can you really remember that? I mean your parents were good people. I mean your parents really you know, all of this sense that okay, okay. Maybe you know when when you know the fighting got really loud, you know? Okay. Yeah sure that makes sense that you were you were really scared then but why are you scared in your life now? You're totally fine. You're out of that. So you know, why do you need to go to therapy? You know? Okay. Was it really that bad all of this like idea that if you're out it's the misconception that that the threat has to be physical and present in order for somebody to be experiencing the threat inside. And so I would say that the healing process is as long and as as is involved as you can tolerate that that you can really take these, these are not short endeavors you can get to, you can get to new ground pretty quickly, you can start to feel better pretty quickly and and that can, that can happen in all kinds of different ways. A very kind of therapy medicine. Um sometimes even sort of just you know relocating for a little while. The novelty of it all brings on some some sense of healing but without trying to make it sound like you've got to be in therapy for decades to fully heal. I do want to say that that that healing and development especially if you've lived in a pretty, If you had chronic experiences um that have that have loaded you up in terms of the pain you're experiencing now there's quite a lot to that healing process and some of it is done in therapy, some of it's done outside of therapy, a lot of it's done just in the moment to moment, day to day life, how you're treating yourself. If we think about the, the AA model, they say 90 meetings in 90 days kind of a thing. And that idea is that healing is intense, healing requires dogged effort and you can't just show up, you know, once a week at the beginning and get what you need. You might be able to go once a week. I mean I'm talking about the allen on for a meeting right now. You might be able to handle once a week in a year or two, but for the first three months, let this be your all consuming effort. You know, make it to a meeting every single day. Read your books in between the meeting. I think healing is a lot like that, like once you decide to heal, we see this, we see this in all those videos cute videos on Youtube of animal of of terrified little puppies slowly being coaxed back into ease by, by the person that finds them and you see you've got to be pretty, you've got to be persistent. You can't just sort of give the dog a five minute dose of, of a positive environment a day and expect that dog to make any kind of progress quickly if if you really give the puppy or dog, you know, whatever. Just a lot of unending, you know, kind of chronic sort of in a, in a positive way. These experiences of, I know you're frightened but I'm still here. I'm still not going to hurt you. I'm still offering you food, I'm still offering you touch. Yeah, you're gonna that that puppy or dog is gonna heal a lot faster. Yeah, so that's kind of a long rambling answer. But those are some thoughts there. Yeah, no, there's so many lessons in what you said and one of the things that I've learned in the business world and especially bleeding teams is that if you really want to accomplish something, you have to focus so hard on it and it has to become kind of your one thing, there's that book out there, you know, the one thing and the idea behind it is that there's all these things we focus on in life that don't, aren't really the most important thing that we should be focusing on. So I love what you said, if you're in a spot where you're broken, where you're struggling, it's going to be intense. And I think that's a good reminder because we might have this idea of feeling that it's gonna be, I don't know, maybe immediately helpful. And hopefully it is, like you said, hopefully you can have some quick wins and get some positive results right away, but it's a marathon. It's not a sprint. And so I think it's really helpful to remember that. And I remember talking with some of the um, young people in our online community about how, okay, like what's that one thing for you? What is that one thing that you need to put an incredible amount of effort behind In order to see the results that you want to see that are going to improve every other area of your life to instead of splitting your attention and this and that. And so I think there's a powerful lesson in there when it comes to healing. And like we need that focus intensity to really go all in to, you know, do what you said, where maybe starting out, you need to do those 90 meetings in 90 days as the 12 step, like a model shows. So a lot of great lessons in there. I think there's also this belief that healing isn't actually possible that you can only really manage symptoms. I'm curious. Um, your, your thoughts on that, I mean, managing symptoms certainly is a part of healing, I think, But, um, but I do think there's this mindset going back to what we're talking about at the beginning of the interview where, oh, I can't really change, I can't grow. I'm kind of this fixed the whole fixed mindset where I am, who I am and I can't become any better. What's your response to that? Yeah, I mean, my own experience and what I've seen in other people is that that it's total bs that healing isn't truly possible. Yeah, Symptom management is, there's a lot of people that believe that that that really symptom management is what this is all about. And sometimes people honestly just want that, you know, it's not everybody with, uh, with, with internal pain, interior pain really once is motivated to do all the work, I think, and that's usually because they haven't come to the full, they haven't faced the fullness of the losses of their life. And the cost that it's, it's that living that way is requiring of them. But for those that really want full healing, full growth to find their upper expansive limits to become everything. They can be kind of a thing to, to find a way to live each moment or most of their moments grounded and solid and walking about tall and confident and knowing themselves and being able to just genuinely interact with other people and receive from other people and that is possible for everyone. Um, there are, they're limiting factors. Certainly there's some, we know there's some neuroma typical disorder, some genetic problems, you know? Certainly that can that can limit somebody's growth in those ways, but on average for for the general population, those that don't have genetic difficulties that don't have narrowed topicality is healing is is incredibly possible. It's not, I have a good friend who is a psychologist who says it's messy and expensive, which I find very true. I don't I haven't yet found a herd of people who haven't had to go through just a lot of work to do it, a lot of searching to get there, because oftentimes, not only are you, you're oftentimes still climbing out of some kind of abyss, it's not like you're you've kind of wiped your hands clean of the difficult stuff and now you're just trying to find, you know, like the upper ends of healing, like you're, you're in a confusing, dark, complicated place and it takes a while to find your footing and to find the to even kind of understand what that what's going on in that place and then to be able to start to climb out of it, but I know nothing. I know I know no limits on healing. Aside from the field that I mentioned, being able to get to a safe place is really important. If somebody is still living in the war zone, then healing is going to be very, very challenging in those situations, and that might be the cases where I could say, okay, maybe your best bet is symptom management, symptom reduction until you can get out of the war zone, but getting out of the war zone has got to be a priority and and once you're out of it, yeah, there's no there's no limit to how much you can heal if you want to if you want to put the time and effort into that, wow, they're so beautiful and so hopeful, as opposed to the message of like, no, you're just stuck, good luck, you know, we're not going that way, We're just not made that way our system is made to heal, we know that physically, we know that emotionally, like yeah, that's it's just wrong, I think humbly, in my own opinion, it's wrong. No, I I would stake my life on that, that it's very seriously like that I wouldn't be where I am today, if that wasn't true, you know? And so I think there's so much hope in that even when you were talking, I was like almost jumping on the inside, I'm like, yes, like this isn't this what everyone wants is this really what we long for. And I think if there's one thing that holds people back from living that life that you described so beautifully is just the belief, again that it isn't even possible because you're not going to try something that you are confident will fail. And so if you don't even believe that healing is possible, that you can become a better, stronger person, that your life can become better. You're not even going to go down that path and you are going to stay stuck. And so one challenge for everyone listening right now is okay. What are your beliefs around this? Do you believe that you can, do you believe that you can grow or do you think that you're just stuck, that you can't change that you can't grow? Give this some thought. I would challenge you there too. Just listen to what Rebecca's saying that you can heal, you can grow. And there's I think one of the most inspiring things when it comes to changing that belief is seeing people who have done it and there's a lot of stories and that's why this podcast really exist because we, in addition to experts, we bring people on who share their stories how they've healed and grown. And so listen to those podcast episodes, but I think there's there's so many great lessons in that and man yeah, it's just like my heart is like burning, to be honest with you because I think we all, we all deserve that full life to live life fully alive, to thrive, to breach our potential to become the best version of ourselves. Like you said, going back to the therapy question sometimes people, I think another barrier to it is to healing in general is that sometimes people may feel embarrassed about reaching out for help to seeing a therapist. What would you say to someone like that, listening right now? Who is afraid? Who feels embarrassed about reaching out for help? Especially scheduling a counseling session. If possible, I would say really pay attention to to that embarrassed feeling and and really try to get close to it. Really try to understand it where that embarrassment is coming from. We can be shamed out of all sorts of things that are good for us. You know, just think of people who who get teased for for being affectionate, you know, like, um, you know, or yeah, there's there's all, you know, a child that wants to get their teachers approval. Then all of a sudden all the other kids are calling that kid like, you know, whatever teacher's pet a brown nose or whatever it might be. So we can get embarrassed and feel ashamed quite easily based depending on how that's been handled previous in our lives. So if you're, if you're embarrassed about seeing a therapist or seeking help, I would say, try and take a look at that. And if it's too, if it's too challenging to figure out yourself, which it may be that that's that would be really understandable. Try and find a really trusted friend or confidant or mentor somebody who you can say, I there's this conflict going on inside of me. On the one hand, I'm hearing some things that it sounds like there's real potential and possibility out there. I really want to lean into that. And yet on the other side of me, there's a real resistance. There's a real embarrassment about going and, and yeah, so I'm, I'm, I would say don't abandon the conflict, feel the conflict and try and get as close as you can to it and understand it. And, you know, therapists have to stay confidential. There's very few things therapists have to break confidentiality for. So you don't have to tell anybody. You can just call up a therapist and say, hey, listen, I I don't know about this therapy thing. I'd like to talk to you for 15, 20 minutes. Can I ask you some questions? Maybe even schedule an initial consultation and, and you know, you know, depending on your age, if, if you're too young, you might need a parent to sign some paperwork. But almost always you can call up and have a 20 minute conversation without having to have any paperwork signed or go to a mentor coach, a teacher or somebody that you really trust. And, and and just try and talk it out a little bit, really allow for the idea that there are that we call them prediction errors in the field that, that maybe this embarrassment is not on. Maybe it's, it's, it's a, it's a, you're not standing in reality and on solid ground in the embarrassment. Maybe that's coming from um some kind of belittling or shaming or or or some it's coming from people who, who you don't trust ultimately, um that those voices. That's good advice. And I love the baby steps idea too, because I think that's been so helpful for me as well and really engaging in that conflict that you feel inside of you. I think that makes so much sense. Even an external conflict. I found that as well that if you run from in maybe you need a little bit of a break. But if you run from it, it usually just gets worse. It doesn't solve itself. You have to really kind of push into the messiness, push into the tension the conflict. And that's the only way I can get resolved quickly. I know everyone's, I think ears went up when you said there's very few things that therapists can break confidentiality for. Um what are those things? Just because I think people are wondering, what are those few things. Sure, sure. We are mandated reporters. So we have to report any reasonable suspicion of child abuse or elderly neglect. We also have the duty to warn and protect and that was born out of. I'm not sure what decades sixties or seventies maybe a psychologist knew of their client's intent to hurt somebody else. And at the time under the way things were at the time didn't disclose it to anybody didn't release it. And that client went ahead and, and hurt the other person. So we now have the duty to warn and protect. Which means if we believe our clients are a threat of harm to themselves or somebody else, we have to, you know, take steps to protect people. Whether that's, if it's a child, then I speak with their parents. If it's an adult, you know, might have to be authority figures or, you know, like law lock or any kind of figures. And then finally, judges have the right to subpoena records. So if any client of any of mine or somebody else's ends up in the court of law, the judge may just demand to see the file and there's nothing we can do to prevent that. Um, I mean, there's an attempt, you can, you can try to quash it, but usually that doesn't work. So other than that the therapist can't break confidentiality. The setting is really designed very well to protect the confidence of the client. Okay. And just to give people confidence in this to those things aren't super common, right? Especially the legal like judicial and the judge is very uncommon. And often times, you know, if a client, if I'm working with a client, especially the first one, the mandated reporter around child abuse. Sometimes these things have already been reported the, the importance there is, and sometimes it's it's past the statute of limitations. So if or sometimes the perpetrator is now deceased. There's all kinds of ways in which that that's not quite, that's not so black and white there. It's not like we are always reporting every single time we hear of this, there's there's plenty of situations in which it's already been reported or like I said, the person is no longer alive or the statute of limited. Each state has different laws around that. Okay, that makes so much sense. Thanks for answering that because I think that could be a barrier for people and so thanks for making it simple. If someone wants to work with you, what are the steps that they should take? I have a website specifically designated for the safe and sound protocol. That's Denver safe and sound dot com. So and on there you can sign up for a quick and easy 15 minute consultation. You can also email me directly through that that website I have in addition to providing the safe and sound protocol. I also work with clients therapeutically for therapy as well as provide psychological assessments. Um you can reach me also for that through the Denver safe and sound website. Then my personal individual website for that is just my name Rebecca Showalter side dot com. So email is almost always the best way I, you know, phone calls work as well but I seem to not be able to keep my voicemail box from being perpetually full. I just gotta go through and like erase a ton of stuff there. But I think that's been a barrier sometimes that sometimes that voice mailbox gets full. Yeah, okay, that makes so much sense. Is there anything else that you offer for people like that maybe want to follow you in your work but aren't ready to maybe work with you? I know you mentioned the website, but is there anything else that they can do to follow you? Not at this point, I mean I'm on the cusp of having a instagram account up and going again, that would be my name, Rebecca shoulder side. People are happy to look for me. There's no content yet, but hopefully there will be uh in the coming, maybe this will, will give me this will give me a good kick start. I can put some content up before this gets out. Yeah, but as of as of right now, those are the only ways the safe and sound. I should say this, the safe and sound protocol is a very quick intervention and it doesn't require, it's best done in conjunction with therapy, but it doesn't require being done in therapy. So if somebody wanted to work with me for the safe and sound protocol, we're talking about five hours of music usually spread over 10 ish days and you you can do it remotely um I would just be in touch via text or email to kind of see monitor, see how things are going, but that's a fairly low level interaction with me. Um, and it tends to be pretty quick in terms of an intervention. So that's amazing. And I think there's a lot of people listening right now who who do need that if they're outside of colorado, are you licensed in other states or can they do that? Even if they're outside of Colorado? The safe and sound protocol, the safe and sound protocol can be done anywhere since it's not a technical psychologist client relationship. Yeah, I don't need to be licensed in this state for therapy. There are a number of states I'm licensed in and you can see that on my website, colorado obviously. And then I'm part of site packed, which just means I can work via zoom and about 20 to 25 different states and more states are jumping on that all the time. So, great, okay, I'm happy to hear about that. I need to look into that more because it's such a barrier for a lot of people getting help from a competent therapist. So thanks for mentioning that I want to give you the final word first. Thank you so much for your time and your expertise. It's really amazing to speak with you. Um, I've really enjoyed this conversation. I've learned a lot personally. And so thank you so much. I know our listeners have as well give you want to give you the final word what encouragement when you give to anyone listening right now who who feel stuck, who feels broken because of everything that's happened in their family, their parents divorce or a lot of dysfunction, just the breakdown of their family. What encouragement would you give them? Yeah, great question. And likewise, I've really enjoyed being here. I would say work hard uh persist at at finding what works for you. You're gonna, you if people have lots of advice and and sometimes the advice is gonna stick and sometimes it's not, we live in a world, especially if you have access to the internet where there's so much on Youtube. And honestly, I think there are tons of good, there's so much good content on Youtube and all all of these areas. I would say start digging and find people that whose whose voice whose language whose message content really hits home and then listen to those as much as is this good for you? You know, really pay attention to. Does this bring me to a calmer better place? Does it, does it help clarify some things? Do I feel more solid and upright when I'm listening to this and if not go ahead and pause it and move on. So even if the idea of of a more formal intervention or therapy is is not possible for whatever reason right now, or not even something you're interested in pursuing doggedly pursue your own healing. It will wait for you. You're you're your demons will wait for you until you face them and master them. They're not going to go anywhere on their own. So, each, each person's journey to that is incredibly unique and different and it's very important that it's, it's that you have ownership and agency in that. So so start where it feels right to start, start by, you know? Yeah, finding some good youtube channels or start by listening to the music where a lot of people find that's very helpful, like artists who have been through similar things and write about it in their music. Like get like explore is what I would say, get out there and see what's out there. See what free content you can find and then of course feel free to to reach out to me even if you're not at all sure what you want the next step to be, I'd be happy to to at least give you some ideas if you're interested in trying the safe and sound protocol. A few of the benefits that Dr Showalter has seen in her patients. One it helps to reduce social anxiety and allows people to laugh and have more fun. It helps them to think and even talk about past trauma without feeling as anxious or triggered one woman who went through the protocol, even overcame her fear of being hugged and started to show more affection to her friends. It helped another woman navigate the horrible news of her miscarriage in a calm way instead of shutting down or going numb as she had in the past and overall it just helps people to regulate their emotions, meaning either they don't get upset as easily or if they do, they're able to calm themselves more quickly, feel safer and less afraid. So if you want to try the safe and sound protocol, you can sign up or watch the video about the protocol at Dr Rebecca's website. Rebecca show walter P S D dot com or just click on the link in the show notes. Now, if you're not able to work with dr Rebecca, you're in luck restored. We're building a network of counselors and coaches that we vet trust and recommend by using our network. It's gonna save you a lot of time and effort in searching for a counselor or coach will also connect you with a trained professional who can give you the help and tools you need to heal so you can feel whole again and thrive in life. So if you want to make use of our network, just go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching. Just fill out the form. It's really quick, maybe 60 seconds and then we'll connect you with the counselor coach or even a spiritual director. Once we find one for you again, go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching or just click on the link in the show notes, Thank you so much for listening. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you're not alone, we're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#080: My Parents’ Divorce Made Me Question Everything | Paula Chambers, PhD

For so many of us, our parents’ divorce causes us to question everything — especially if it came out of the blue. We ask ourselves: What won’t fall apart? We may even go through life feeling like there’s a disaster around every corner and as a result, so often we play it safe in life. 

We discuss that and more in this episode as my guest shares:

• How she blamed herself for the breakdown of her parents’ marriage

• How nobody was there for her

• How she struggled with low self-esteem, self-harm, and acting out sexually

• How she never had children because she feared she couldn’t be a good mom

Share your story

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• Paula Chambers

  • Website

  • Free Nia Class Discount Code: RESTORED

• Episode 33: Does Divorce Damage Children? 67 Studies Answer

• Books

  • The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma | Bessel van der Kolk M.D.

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

For so many of us who come from broken families, our parents' divorce caused us to question everything, especially if it came out of the blue. We ask ourselves if my family is meant to be in my foundation in life, and that fell apart, well what won't fall apart? And we may even go through life feeling like there's a disaster around every corner.

And as a result, so often we play it safe in. We discussed that and so much more in this episode as my guest shares how she felt powerless and even blamed herself as a five year old girl for the breakdown of her parents' marriage. We talk about how nobody was there for her when she needed it the most.

So sad and so wrong, and that's what we're trying to change. Hair restored, she vulnerably shares how she struggled with low self-esteem, self-harm, and even acting out sexually. We even discussed why she fell into that and what she was seeking in that behavior. She mentions how her parents' broken marriage has even affected her own marriage.

She shares a big reason that she never had children is because she was afraid. That she couldn't be a good mom, largely because of her broken family, and she shares what's helped her heal and how her life is different now. So keep listening.

Welcome to the Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents'. Divorce, separation, or broken marriage so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for joining us. This is Episode. Before I introduce my guest, if you would like to share your story with us at Restored, we'd love to hear it.

There's three easy steps to do it, but first, some of the benefits of sharing your story, reflecting on your story is actually healing for you on a neural, biological level. It actually makes your brain healthier writing your story. Is actually healing as well. Studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed, they're less anxious, they're healthier, and they're happier.

And sharing your story with someone is healing too on a neuro biological level. Not just keeping it to yourself or writing it for yourself, but actually sharing it with someone else who can receive it, who can listen to it, who can read it with. Also sharing your story can give guidance and hope to people who are struggling, who are in a similar spot that you were.

Now, if you wanna share your story, there's three easy steps. Just go to restored ministry.com/story can restored ministry ministry singular.com/story. On that page, the formal guide you and telling a really quick version of your. And then we'll take it and turn it into an anonymous blog article. So if you want to go ahead and share your story now, I'll also remind you at the end of the episode to do so, you could also just click the link in the show notes if you want to, or go to resort ministry.com/story.

My guest today is Paula Chambers. Paula Woods raised in Los Angeles by an actress, mom and filmmaker dad. Paula grew up steeped in the show business and spent her twenties in that world. She studied film at Cal Arts and worked as an assistant director in movies and television for five years. She changed careers at 29 and spent the next decade in graduate school preparing to be an English professor where she won teaching awards.

She started a business called Versatile PhD, a business that helped thousands of graduate students to pursue careers outside academia. After selling that business, she began teaching a dance fitness class, which she turned into another business. Paula is passionate about healing, about growing and personal responsibility.

She resides in California and is happily married to her husband, Gary. So here's my conversation with Paula Chambers.

Paula, it's great to have you in the show. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you for having me. I am so happy to be in this beautiful space that you've created. Thank you and, uh, I've been looking forward to this conversation. It's great to have you here, like I said, and I'd like to just dive right in, if that's okay.

How old were you when your parents separated and divorced and what happened? Uh, I was five. Um, I was born in New York in the 1960s into a show business family. My mom was an actress and my father was a director and they were both writers. They were both very smart and charismatic people. My dad came across as, uh, really intelligent and competent and funny.

He has a goofball side that earned him a lot of friends . And, uh, my mom is, uh, warm and charming and absolutely gorgeous. So they were both. I think extra compelling people. Every child is fascinated by their parents, but my parents actually were legitimately fascinating people. Um, but they both had, had developmental trauma in their childhood, of course, which I only know now as an adult.

They both had, had really difficult, really terrible parenting from, uh, from both of their parents and, uh, that left them. I now understand. Damaged, deeply damaged and unable to have the kind of close, intimate relationship that they wanted and that they needed. And it also didn't help that my father was away a lot for his work.

He was a, uh, a director of training and educational films. He was hired by government agencies and corporations to make films about things, you know, that were important, films that were instructive. So he was on the road a lot. He worked in Washington DC shooting medical documentaries at Walter Reed Medical Hospital, and all kinds of other interest.

Assignments, but that took him away from our home. So I'm sure that could not have been a positive influence on their marriage. They were married for nine years. They had to work really hard to have me. Uh, my father was especially passionate about having a child and he hoped for a girl and they finally had me in year four of their nine year marriage.

Uh, their problems as a couple got serious in year seven. And they divorced in year eight when I was five, and uh, I was the only child, which is one of the things that made the effects of the divorce extra hard on me that I didn't have a sibling to weather the storm with. I was all alone. Another thing that made it hard on me is that there.

There was no yelling. There were no fights. Nobody was awful. And I learned from your show that that's called a low conflict divorce, which research has shown is the most damaging to the children because it comes outta nowhere. Like what? What? And if you can't trust, What your eyes tell you. Everything looked fine right to me, but if you, But then it wasn't, and so it makes you question just everything.

Mm-hmm. , it makes you question all of your perceptions and have a persistent lack of confidence in your own perceptions of the world. I found a letter recently that my mother wrote to her mother telling her mother about the divorce. She said that, uh, she and my father had been pretending things were okay for years, but in the last year, they realized that they had to either live a pretend life for the rest of their lives or break.

And create new lives separately. They chose the latter, partly because they were starting to see that the tension between them, which was harder and harder to pretend didn't exist, was finally affecting me. My mom said it was showing in my behavior. She wasn't specific. I don't know what I would've been doing as a four year old, noticing my parents.

Something was wrong, but not knowing what and feeling, you know, I don't know what I was doing, but I must have felt puzzled, like, what's going on? I must have felt scared. You know what? Things are unstable. I can't trust my environment. And I'm sure that I felt powerless cuz in fact, I was powerless. I didn't have the ability to fix their marriage.

I was five. And I wasn't them, so I was powerless. So they divorced when I was five, and I actually remember them saying, It's not your fault. But because I was five, I was developmentally unable to hear that. I was unable to take that in. I now know that four and five year olds are just starting to become independent, just starting to discover themselves as people, Hey, I could do this.

Maybe I'd like to do. And yet they're still young enough to, to believe that everything that happens in their world happened because of them. So that time, especially for an only child, Is a very tough time for parents to divorce because I got, I as a five year old got the message that I obviously had been bad.

That's something I had done or some way I was being, as I was trying out being Paula and learning what being Paula is, Apparently Paula is no good because Paula must have caused. This terrible thing to happen. What other reason could there be, Right? Yeah. To a five year old. There can't be another reason.

I was very deeply affected and I feel today also, that not enough space was made for me and my feelings at the time. Now, this was the 1960s, so times are different today I hope. But you know, I was just the five year old and I was very important, but I was not. You know nobody, I don't remember anyone holding me and just inviting me to just cry and keep crying.

I don't remember them asking me what I feel. Maybe they did. I don't remember. I felt unseen. I felt unseen, unheard and subordinate to them. Less important than them, which with charismatic. People is extra easy to feel, you know, they are so fascinating and so powerful. I, you know, so the downstream consequences for, for me as my life went on the.

Was that I had extremely low self-esteem starting in, starting then, and it really didn't get really good, honestly, until about 10 years ago. Um, it slowly crawled forward, but it was terrible throughout my childhood. I developed a stutter right after the divorce, um, and the stutter, of course. Oh, that did wonders for me on the playground.

You know, I mean, I was a magnet. For merciless teasing. So now I was also teased and bullied and pushed around at school. So my self-esteem got even lower and those neural pathways saying I am bad, I am bad, got carved even deeper. I had. More difficulty with my father, even though he was a highly engaged and loyal, divorced father for the era.

He wrote me a letter every day and called me on the phone every night. You could hardly ask for a more engaged father. I should add, my mother moved me to California, so that's why all the letters and the calls instead of the visits. But, um, he really did a champion job of staying in touch with me, and yet the divorce affected him too.

He felt really terrible about himself and his failure, and he compensated unfortunately by becoming kind of a narciss. And so his narcissism then was a downstream effect on him that totally affected me. I had a lot of conflicts with him, and it was even more all about him and not about me. He never asked my opinion.

He declaimed and proclaimed this is how it is, and so I again was, was hampered in my natural human need to develop my own opinions and perspectives. As a young adult, I engaged in self harm. I drank, I took drugs, and I was very promiscuous. Honestly, it's a miracle that nothing terrible happened to me.

It's a miracle that I never got pregnant or raped or killed. Nothing bad happened to me. I was so lucky. I'm so grateful to whatever guardian, angel, if you will, must have been looking out for me cuz I was putting myself in harm's way. Regularly. So I look back at those behaviors now and I just feel like, no, you are so much better than that.

I wish I could re mother myself at that time. And also, I did not develop real emotional independence until well into adulthood. I was incredibly delayed in growing out of needing to please my. My career choices were driven by a combination of healthy reasons, like being genuinely interested in a field and also unhealthy reasons.

I know my mother would be proud of me if I did this. I know my father would respect this, and there was always a need to prove to them that I was a good daughter after all, and I now know I never had to prove that I was always a good daughter. They never thought otherwise. It wasn't my fault that they got divorced.

That was a lie that my, you know, five year old brain had no choice. But tell me. Yeah, and I was a late bloomer also in my romantic relationships, starting with promiscuity in my late teens and early twenties. It took me a long time to get better and better boyfriends, you know, nicer and nicer people, better and better quality Relat.

Until I finally met the man I was to marry when I was 34 and we married at 38. Not ridiculously late, not ridiculous. But you know, on the late side, and I also did not have children, which again is not terrible. Um, but the main reasons were to really be honest with you and your listeners because I didn't wanna put anyone else through what I had gone through, and I didn't believe in my ability to be a good mother.

Wow, because I, I hadn't yet really discovered all of the wonderful things that are Paula. I didn't love myself enough to believe that I could be a good mom. So I didn't have children. I don't actually honestly regret that today. I never felt a giant stirring of maternal need. So, you know, that worked out.

I got to do a lot of great things because I didn't have children. So I'm not, you know, playing the violin here. I'm just saying it affected my life. Uh, it might have gone differently, but for the effects of the divorce. Wow. Thank you for sharing. So vulnerably and. Your story is, uh, incredible, like you've been through so much and there's so much I wanna say to kind of narrow it in one, when it comes to our parents experiencing trauma, we see that all the time that that trauma, that brokenness gets passed on often for generations, which is so sad.

And that's why we exist because we wanna. Putting into that, wanna break that cycle, and I know you get that going to the timeline of your parents' divorce. Uh, I'm sure you know this, but for our listeners, if you don't know this, I've seen data from the US Census that says on average for first marriages, typically the separation happens seven years in, and then the divorce takes one year.

So at the eight year, There's a divorce. So your parents actually were right on that timeline, which is really fascinating. Um, I can't imagine, you know, you going through that alone, no one was there for you. Uh, it's so tragic. It breaks my heart thinking to the younger you and I didn't see that a lot. Now we have a friend who's going through a divorce.

My friend, I have a friend who's going through a divorce and it's just the whole situation breaks my heart. And, uh, she's, the, our friend has been through a lot, but she has a daughter who, um, I think she's maybe three now, maybe. Whenever I see her, I just wanna like, like you said, I just wanna wrap her in my arms.

My heart just breaks for her. I know what she's going through and I just wish I could spare her all that pain and protect her from, you know, everything that's coming at her both now and in the future as we both well know, so, so much there to to comment on. I just wanted to kind of validate you on those few things when it comes to the low self-esteem.

Having spoken with you separately and obviously now in this show. You strike me as a very confident person now. So I wanna hone in on that because this is a common struggle for people like us who come from broken families. How did you become so confident? How did you go from the low self-esteem to where you are now feeling comfortable in your own skin and and confident to the point where you can get up and give talks in front of audiences and do all these amazing public eye sorts of activities.

So I'm curious, how did you become that? Part of it is my, just my native temperament. I am, Now that I know who Paula is, I can tell you that I enjoy communicating. I enjoy speaking. I enjoy speaking live. I enjoy writing. I. It's part of who I am, and I think it would've been part of who I am, no matter whether there had been a divorce or not, no matter whether my parents had been better able to make their marriage work or not.

I think that was just an inborn part of me that I would one day be a teacher speaker or deter some blend of that. Sure. But, uh, that aside, I have to acknowledge the many rich resources that have been. Str upon my forward path as I grew up through my adulthood. My adulthood has been infinitely better than my childhood.

Mm. And it is. I did have a lot of therapy. I was, I've been fortunate to be well resourced, to be able to have therapy. Anytime I wanted, and I've certainly had a lot of it and that was somewhat helpful. I've been fortunate also to have loads of education. Education has been fantastic for me. I loved learning about things that interested me.

And looking back, I can see how. Pursuing education has been a way that I have found of finding out more about who Paula is, you know, observing my interests as they develop, and then spending more time learning, choosing those classes and writing that paper. It has been a nice, delayed, but nonetheless valuable way of discovering Paula.

And, uh, I've been very lucky to find marvelous friends who are very different from me in many ways, but who see me, who make me feel seen and loved as I am accepted. When I started working at the Renaissance Fair in my late teens, that's when I met these fantastic people. Who themselves were the misfit toys of the world, you know?

And they, they welcomed me and they saw me and they said, Yeah, that's great. Be that, be you. And I met some of my closest friends there today, and they have been incredibly helpful. Uh, I've gone through my adult life with them, um, and then a little later finding my husband, who I have to say is uniquely qualified, uniquely well.

Created to make me feel loved. An issue in my childhood in the divorce was that I didn't feel seen and heard. My husband makes me feel incredibly seen and heard. He loves to listen to my voice. He loves to see my face. He's very slow to come to a conclusion about something. He gathers a lot of data really different from me.

He gathers a lot of data before he decides. That something is an observable, verifiable, evidence based thing, and it, he was, you know, it took him six months of dating me before he was able to say that I am honest, and it meant so much more coming from him. I had never met a person like that who was so, Interested in granular data and lots of it before reaching any conclusions about anything.

And so when he says something about me, I know it's true because it is totally evidence based. It's not hype or fantasy. As in stark contrast to how my parents were being artists, they're given to fantasy and imagination to begin with. Not a sin, but having being damaged that made themself in, self-absorbed and not so able to see me.

They would project onto me instead of seeing me. It was the best they could do, but my husband. He doesn't project anything . He's like, If he sees something about me and he says it, I'm sure it's true. That was very helpful. Yeah, and to have his daily devotion, his daily presence, his daily love, it was just, it filled in all the love gaps that the divorce left in my heart.

And, uh, I would also credit having career opportunities, having many, because of my education and my temperament being, um, ready and willing to be a little bolder and make bolder choices. I have had several experiences, work experiences that have shown me that I can make a positive difference in the world.

Is part of it related to my damage from the divorce, but not in a bad way. The fact that I felt I could have no impact on what was happening with them, and in fact I was right, I could not made me yearn to have an impact on something. And so when I was an English composition teacher, while I was getting my PhD, I had an impact.

I had, I helped these young people learn how to. And that was thrilling. And then later as a grant writer, I raised money that was used for the mission of my organization, which I cared about. So, boom, because of my writing, I was able to make a difference in the world. A little more recently, my second to last career, having the opportunity to start a community for humanities, PhD students who are interested in non-academic careers.

Now, this is a little obscure. Most people think that a PhD has all the doors of the world open to them, but it is not. So many, many, uh, PhDs go in because they want an academic career. They wanna be professors, but they discover. When it's too late to stop. When they're almost done, they discover that there aren't the jobs out there.

And so it's like, well, now what? Yeah. And they feel like they're the losers, you know? And, but I created the first ever online community for humanities PhD students interested in non-academic careers. And that community, I later upgraded it into a socially positive business called Versatile PhD, and my message to them, As to myself at the time was you are versatile.

You can do many things, move in many directions. So those work experiences helped me discover the power that I do have to influence the things that I can influence, and that has been very healing for me. So all of those things, those, those career moves, they're all kind of different. You know, I haven't been doing one thing my whole life.

It's been a, a, a series of chapters, but every chapter has unfolded and revealed something wonderful about myself, to myself, and has left the world a little bit better than I found it, and most recently. Now I , believe it or not, I'm still incredulous myself. I sold versatile PhD five years ago in order to become a , a Mindful Movement teacher, I teach a class called Nia Technique, which is a low impact, whole body joy based workout.

And I, this is what I do now. I'm lucky that I was able to sell my business and accept a much, much, much lower income to do this thing that I love. But neo technique has been something that when I discovered as a student, that's when my own healing really accelerated. I have to acknowledge there was a synergistic forward progress, as I've described through all those careers, through my marriage, through my friends.

All of that helped. But after all that help, Finding neo technique really sent me flying and made me heal, helped me heal myself and become, uh, the person that I am today. So good. Thank you for going through that and I can tell why those experiences would make you more confident to going back to relationships and.

Marriage. I'm curious, in addition to what you've already told us, um, how have you seen the breakdown of your family, your parents' divorce, affect your relationships and your marriage? In addition to what you've already told us? I would say that my low self-esteem has affected all of my relationships. The ones, the, the friendships that didn't get to happen because I was too needy.

The friendships that did happen, but that I could not receive all of the love and joy that there was there for me to receive. You know, you can pour a bucket into a thimble, but the thimble is only gonna take away a thi full of the water in the bucket. And I'm sure that there was a lot more love and acceptance out there for.

The whole time, but I kept feeling insecure and uncertain and am I a good person and needing a lot of reassurance, you know? So I missed out on a lot of joy and a lot of love and a lot of fun by constantly being so interrogating myself and being hard on myself and worrying that I'm not good. That has affected all of my relationships, friendships, et cetera, and it, it has, oh yes, it has affected my marriage too.

All marriages have issues and one of ours is that I am still. Even today, very poisoned by my father's hatred of stupidity. This is one of the things I mentioned. He kind of spun out into a degree of narcissism after the divorce. And his intelligence was one of the things that he based his new propped up self-esteem on.

And when I was with him, he would, you know, fairly often whenever he would encounter something stupid, which the world being full of stupidity happened often he would say, Ugh. That was stupid. That person, she's so stupid. What stupid thing to say. And just the way he said stupid, that first syllable stupid was like a blow stupid.

And I thought that the message I got from that is, whatever I am in this life, Ed, I'd better not be stupid. Mm-hmm. . And so I have even today a corrosive little thread. Of hatred, of stupidity, of contempt, of stupidity. Mm-hmm. and my husband and I have very different minds, different temperaments, and we think differently.

And so sometimes we each do things that the other person thinks are stupid. I see different things when I walk into a room than he does, and when I think he has done something stupid. Especially when I'm, when we're under pressure, you know, like, Let's, let's go, let's get out the door. Let's get ready for the party or whatever.

You know, I feel myself starting to feel contemptuous of him and starting to say, just to speak to him in an unkind tone that I'm too embarrassed to imitate myself doing. So that is the, the ghost of my fetishistic need to please my father, even when he was like super screwed up. Still lives on in my consciousness and my relationships today.

No, it makes so much sense. And again, you can see that thread, you can see that theme in your life and how impactful that original event was to you. And it makes so much sense and in so many ways, it just breaks my heart to, to see what you went through, what you struggled with, um, but it's also beautiful how you've been able to transform that into something.

Uh, really good. And that's my next question for you. You already touched on a lot of ways in which you have healed. Is there anything you would add to. Yes. I wanna talk more about the body and its role in my healing. I've always loved to dance and move. Well, always isn't true. When I was a child, I didn't have the confidence, the self esteem, to actually dare to dance at a party.

Later in my twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, et cetera. I have always chosen and it, uh, chosen dance activities, amateur dance activities like dancing at the Renaissance Fair, you know, English country dance, for example. And I've always really enjoyed, I have great sense of rhythm. I love, I love the movement.

I like moving my body. It's fun for me. So maybe there are people out there who just simply don't like to move, don't like to dance, they're not dancers. Okay. This part maybe won't be helpful to them so much. When I discovered Nia technique is, uh, it was a very powerful turning point because I had never been told to sense my body before.

Nia is a mindful dance fitness practice. It is not a performing art. It is a sensory movement practice where the goal is to sense your body while moving to this beautiful music. Doing these beautiful, interesting, fun, not too hard movements and sensing my body while moving was an entirely new concept to me when I discovered Nia in my forties.

And then, and Nia also teaches you that your body has a voice. Your body has things to say to. But it only has the voice of sensation. So if you are, if you are listening to your body, if you're sensing your body, you are listening to your body's voice. And so I began to regard my body as a source of truth, a source of my identity.

I developed a whole new body based sense of self. And the great thing about sensing my body, speaking only for myself, is that I realized, Oh my God, this information, when I am moving my body, nobody but me even has access to that data to refute it or debate it. Right. This is information for me alone. Only I know what my body feels like doing.

This moves to this music on this day, and that was incredibly healing for me. Maybe it had that big effect on me because as I said, I've always loved to dance, so I'm a, you know, dancer type. So maybe it's just in my temperament, but whatever. I found this medium and it helped me. Incredibly much and so much that a few years later I decided to become a teacher.

And now as Ania teacher, I am doing all, all, you can see all the themes of my life braided together. I'm teaching, I'm dancing. I'm being seen, I'm being heard. It's incredible. I love. Thanks for sharing and No, it makes sense and to some people listening, you know, that might not be a tool that you would use for healing, but everyone you know, has different ways of coping and dealing and, and finding healing.

And one of the things that I think, um, might be helpful to people who might be a little bit thrown off by this idea is that our bodies do keep. The trauma, uh, that we've endured on some level, and there's a whole book on this. The body keeps the score and it's the idea that, yeah, our bodies, the basic idea is that our bodies are impacted by the trauma that we endured, the emotional trauma and physical trauma we've endured.

Uh, a typical example of a physical trauma would be. You know, if you're a soldier who gets blown up or you're in a car accident, you might end up forming a hunch as if you're preparing to be hit by the car again. And so your body can carry that trauma with you. And so for me personally, you know, I, I'm not, um, huge into dance, but I, I'm am into fitness.

I love, um, I'm not as active now. I don't wanna give him the impression that I'm like this, uh, athletic fitness expert by any means. In the past, you know, I, uh, was an athlete all my life and I did CrossFit. I did kickboxing, and so you reminded me of that too, which for me, those things were helpful and healing.

They were honestly coping mechanisms for me to get a lot of stress out and to deal with, you know, the things I was juggling in my life at the time, especially going through the, a lot of the dysfunction in my family. And so, uh, yeah, I remember too when things would get really rough at home. I would go downstairs and I would hit a punching back hard, and that was helpful for me to, to use my body and this whole idea.

Mind over matter is interesting, but I've heard people say body over mind in some ways can be really helpful, especially if you get caught in your mind with a lot of anxiety. So I appreciate you going through that and if you guys wanna pick up that book, The Body Keeps the score. I haven't read it yet, I wanna read it, but that's where some of these ideas come from, whether or not you end up going down the route of doing some sort of dance fitness or not.

Uh, we're close to our time here, so I wanted to ask you, you know, Been through a lot. You've found a lot of healing. How is your life different now that you've found that healing and you've grown? My life is very different because on the inside it looks the same on the outside, but on the inside, my experience of my life is much, much, much better now that I have really fully taken charge of defining.

That I know who Paula is and I'm still learning too. I'm still evolving too. So Paula is not a static work of art that's finished, but I am, I'm the driver and I'm, I, I get to decide, I'm a decider of what happens in my life and not, you know, we don't have control over everything in our lives, but I am the decider of how I respond to the things that.

I am much better able to, uh, resist being triggered in difficult situations now, and I must say the pandemic was a blessing to my healing, though I would gladly give it all back if the pandemic could not happen. Fair, but, Slowing way down. I finally took the advice of so many people. People have been telling me all my life, Oh, Paula, you really should try meditation.

So I finally went, Oh, all right. I'll just sit and I'll breathe and sense my breathing. And it helped so much. I discovered that there was. That the, that my perceiving unit that is the Paula inside of Paula, you know, is inside my breath. And by sensing my breath, I was able to feel like I was cradling my young self, cradling my four year old self.

Sometimes tears would come, sometimes they wouldn't. But by focusing on my breath and imagining that baby Paula. Was inside the loop of inhale and exhale. I made myself feel seen and embraced and cared about, and then I added affirmations onto that. I started saying affirmations that counteracted the trauma that I experienced.

I said, for example, I am a good person. I am a good person when I do good things, and also when I make mistakes gain. Forget something or screw up. I am a good person 24 7 365. So in the after meditating, even just for five minutes, you know, just 40 or 50 breaths, and then saying those positive things to myself, I started to hear it and believe it.

Okay. Thank you so much. And it's amazing. One of the transformations that stuck out to me in this conversation is that you went from struggling with the stutter to now being, you know, in order as, as you said, at a PhD in composition and it's, it's quite incredible. So that's for some, uh, I think it's inspiring for a lot of people listening right now.

If your parents were listening right now, what would you want them to know? I would want them to know that I see. The trauma that they went through in their childhood, I understand that it must have been so hard for them to reach out to each other in the ways that each of them needed, and I don't blame them for getting that divorce.

And I thank them for giving me better parenting than they themselves received. You know, I may have my complaints and I do, but my ability to say that to them, to acknowledge that they nonetheless made progress, they did better with me than had been given to them. That's, that's all a person can really hope for, is to do better, and they really did better, and I would thank them for all of the resources and love and encouragement that they were able to give me.

I would assure them that I am going to be. I love that. I love how you're able to be honest, but at the same time, honor your parents in the sense that they did help you, they did love you, but again, still acknowledge the shortcomings without, you know, giving out any sort of hate or spite to them. So thank you for adding that balance.

I think it's a beautiful example for all of us who come from broken families. How has Restored help? Do you mention separately to me that this has been helpful for you? I'm not tooting our own horn, but I'm just curious, anyone listening maybe who hasn't, uh, listened to the podcast or interacted with a nonprofit, uh, how has it helped?

For me restored has helped me feel seen and cared about those themes, that the fact that you have this podcast intended to help children of divorce, even though I'm no longer a child, it really has helped my inner child feel cared about. And seen, and also some of the content of your podcast, A lot of the content.

I love listening to the stories of other children of divorce, and they often make me feel lucky because, God, that didn't happen to me. You know, , but. But they're, but you choose people with compelling voices and I enjoy listening to them. And lastly, uh, one of your episodes, you presented a review of scholarly research on the impact of divorce on children.

And as a former academic, that has a high appeal to me. I'm very interested in readings. Studies and meta analyses that merge all the studies that have been done into a different topic, into one sort of mass conclusion. What do we know about this? It was from that episode in particular that I learned that the low conflict divorce is the most damaging to children.

That was like, Well, no wonder. Thank you because, you know, raised in an affluent professional household where nobody was hitting each other. I have often not only felt terrible, but felt crazy for feeling terrible. So thank you for that and your voice. If I may say, your voice has a soothing quality that my inner child really hears and loves, and I wanna suggest that with your friend's daughter, you might be a safe place where she can just be.

Just watch her, see her, listen to her, pay attention to her. Don't even have to say anything magical or special. Just your attention is healing. Thank you. No, that's incredible advice and thanks for the compliments. I really appreciate that and I appreciate the fact that, um, yeah, you found this helpful. I'm really, I'm so glad you're the reason we do this.

And so I'm, I'm really honored that we've been a part of your story and just there to help guide you in little ways and you've done the rest. You're the hero. So thank you, uh, for mentioning that and I've learned a lot. The research too. It was very eye opening for me to understand that about low conflict divorces as well.

Paula, if people want to, uh, learn more about you and connect with you, how could they do that? My website is www.paulachambers.me. Which now after this interview, I think, Oh, of course it's me, dot com and.net were not available, but.me was available, so that's when I used Paula chambers.me. You can read more about me, you can invite me to be a guest on another podcast.

You can take one of my. Online at NEO classes, I teach exclusively online right now so anyone can access my NEO classes. You don't need any prior experience. Dance talent. Forget it. Don't need it. It's not a performing art. All you need is decent internet and about eight by eight of floor space. And in fact, your listeners can have a free neo class by going to my website and signing up for a single drop in class using discount code restored all caps restored.

That'll get you a free neo class. Thank you so much. If you guys wanna check out that, uh, fitness cardio dance movement class, you can do that as well. And like Paula said, she's the one who will be guiding you through that. Thank you so much. Thanks for your time, Paul. I really appreciate you again, being so vulnerable and sharing the lessons that you've learned through your life and the difficult things you've.

Been through, but it's amazing to see that you've come through the other side. I know you're continuing to heal and grow, but it's amazing to see the progress that you've made. So thank you so much. I'm honored to hear your story and to, uh, walk through this conversation with you. I wanna give you the last word.

What words of encouragement or advice would you give to someone who, who feels broken? Who feels stuck in, in life because of their parents' divorce, because of the broken marriage? I would say sense your body, even if it's only as simple as sensing your breathing when you're driving in the car or touching your pants when you're under the dining table, rubbing your thighs something sensory and just listen.

Sense your body with no judgment, sense with a spirit of inquiry.

In case you're wondering. Episode 33 is the episode that breaks down and simplifies the 67 different studies on children of divorce that Paula mentioned. Again, that's episode 33 in case you wanna listen to. The question I have for you guys to reflect on today is what was, or maybe even, is the desire at the core of the unhealthy behavior you've engaged in like Paula?

Maybe it's just a desire to be seen underneath a lot of my own mistakes was a desire just to feel wanted. What about you? Give that some thought. Once you understand that, it's much easier than to fill that need, fill that desire in a healthy way, and to avoid the unhealthy, vicious behavior. As a reminder, if you wanna share your story with us, we'd love to hear it.

You can just go to restoredministry.com/story or just click on the link in the show. Thank you so much for listening. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, shared this podcast with them, always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#079: Religious Art for Adult Children of Divorce | Dr. Daniel Meola & Michael Corsini

Art is healing. If you’re not an artistic person, that might seem odd. But it’s true. In this episode, we discuss why and how art can be healing and more:

• What type of art has been healing for our guests

• How art can help people from broken families

• A piece of religious art specifically for Catholic/Christian adult children of divorce

Dr. Daniel: Buy the artwork or sign up for the retreat

Mike: View his artwork

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Life Giving Wounds Ministry

  • Sacred Art for Children of Divorce

  • Blog Article: Remaining Secure in the Father’s Love

  • Discount Code for Retreat and Artwork: Restored

  • For God So Loved The World - Gold Framed Art - Catholic to the Max - Online Catholic Store

• Mike Corsini

  • Michael Corsini Art

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• Episode 51: Music: A Powerful Tool to Help You Cope & Heal | Jenny & Tyler

• Join Restored’s Online Community

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you're not an artistic person or someone who enjoys art, the idea that art can be healing might seem odd to you, but it's absolutely true. And in this episode, we explore why that is and how art can be healing. And when I say art, I don't just mean paintings, but really any type of art, including music, movies shows, novels, statues, poems, paintings, and so much more.

In this episode, my guests and I discuss what type of art has been healing for each of us. Mine happens to be a movie which I'll tell you about in the episode. And more specifically, we talk about how art can help people like us from broken families. We also discuss a piece of religious art specifically for Catholic or Christian adult children of divorce.

Really interesting conversation. So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce. Separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 79. I have two guests today. My first one is Dr. Daniel Meola. He's an adult child of divorce who earned his PhD in theology of marriage and family from the Pontifical John Paul II Institute for studies on marriage and family in Washington.

He's been leading retreats for 15 years in particular, he's led retreats and support groups for adult children of divorce or separation since 2015 in the archdiocese of Washington. And in 2018, he founded life giving wounds to spread the retreat and support groups, to adult children of divorce or separation.

Dan and his wife live in Maryland with their two daughters and a cat. My second guess is Michael Kini. Michael is a husband and father of five. He's also a full-time Catholic painter, illustrator and musician with a bachelor's in fine arts and illustration from Ringling school of art and design and a master's from the John Paul II Institute in DC, Michael and his family currently live in Northeast, Pennsylvania.

Quick. Disclaimer, my guests are both Catholic Christians. So you're gonna hear talk about God and faith in this episode. Now, if that's not your background, no worries at all. I'm glad you're here. Now. I typically say that you can listen and take the God parts out, but this episode is extra religious. So if that's a real turnoff for you, perhaps start with another episode.

But if you do listen, I challenge you to listen with an open mind. I do believe that you. Still benefit from this episode. So here's my conversation with Dr. Daniel and Michael

and Mike. So good to have you on the show. Thank you both for being here. Yeah. Pleasure. Thank you, Joe. This idea that, uh, art can be healing. It it's so intriguing. I'm excited to dive into it deeper. Mike, I wanted to start with you as an artist. Uh, two questions, one. Why is art healing? And maybe if you could define what we were talking about when we say.

Sure art is healing. Um, sort of this might be a controversial statement, but sort of by its nature, you know, there's a lot of, uh, there's a lot of science even behind the healing of that, that properties that art has, you know, um, read many research papers in that regard, you know, in terms of. Beautiful art can, can alter brain chemistry and, and reduce hospital stays and, and, and these kinds of things.

But it, what that does is it really speaks to our, that body's soul connection. You know, that we have that, that art, which is something that speaks to the heart beyond words, you know, in a place where there, where maybe. Words can't reach or maybe words aren't necessary. Um, I think anybody who has walked into a beautiful cathedral, uh, or walked into a, an art museum and has, you know, been in the presence of some great work, the, the art itself, great art like that has, has a not only its own kind of presence, but it also has this ability to penetra.

More deeply our interior than if somebody was able, then if somebody was to, uh, produce a, an argument or, or a, um, or, or a well crafted way of describing the art itself, but be just simply being in, in the presence of the art itself, sort of astonishes us, uh, in, in an interior way. That is impossible. I think in, by other means.

so I, I mean, you know, what is art? It's a hard thing to describe, right? You know, mm-hmm, in a lot of ways, but ultimately, I mean, I wanna say from the outset, I, from my perspective as a sacred artist, as a artist who also creates animation and illustrations and things like that, the art's ability to heal is really.

Uh, it's fundamentally, it's a gift of God, you know? So the, the ability of the work of a man woman's hands and artists hands without an infusion of grace by itself, doesn't necessarily have a, a capacity to heal. It's it's this, this imparting into our interior, into our, uh, heart, soul, whatever you wanna. Of God, something of God's own transcendental beauty.

So he is, it's like he's, he's giving us a glimpse or opening a. Door or shining a, a mirror that we can see just a glimmer of God's own transcendental beauty and that astonishes the human, the human being, the human heart in such a way that, uh, it, it can move us to then want to, uh, either drop things that are harmful in our life like sin, but it can also, so we talk about things like conversion in, in the presence of a piece of.

But, but God sharing, uh, something of his own transcendental beauty through the work of human hands is where healing and art, I think really takes place so many good points. Uh, I wanna comment on that, but first in anything dad, oh, I mean, Mike is the artist will have the deepest sense of this topic, but I would add that.

I think there's an inner artist to us all, you know, I, I, I see this, I see this in our ministry. For healing time and time again, sometimes people think of, um, people in like right brain left brain. Sometimes you hear this, you know, like left brain's the analytical practical side and the right brain is emotional, creative, artistic side, but it, it it's absolutely been debunked that we're whole, the soul unites us.

We, we need to use both sides. Mm-hmm , you know, two brains are better than one. Um, and, and to find healing, we need to integrate. Our whole self. We need to use our whole self, which means our right brain as well. So even if you're more of the analytical argumental type, I would say that there's something of the right brain, the artists that we all need to recapture for our healing in our wholeness.

To not, you know, bifurcate our brains and actually it's impossible to do so, you know, current studies, this idea that there's left brain, right? Brain people goes back to the sixties, but current studies show that there's no such thing. They're always integrated. Mm-hmm, , they're always used. So if there is any trauma, any great suffering like us as children or divorce have experience, it's affected our whole brain.

Mm-hmm our whole selves. So this, you know, this idea that we can just approach healing in just an analytical. Or just a creative way is, is flawed. We need, we need both. We need to use both. So I would just add that, you know, as Mike talks, there are specific people who are called to be artists and they have a unique location to teach us about the importance of art and healing and ways that the normal person couldn't understand or see, although we experience it and before great artists Mike said, but all of us, all of us have this inner artist.

This inner capacity for art that needs to be fulfilled by beauty. So Mike talked about beauty as a transcendental from God. It's, it's also our own need as humans. We need to see and to experience that visible form of God. Beauty is that visible form of God whose ultimate goodness, if you wanna back it up for those in the secular audiences, you know, the medievals would say beauty is the visible form of the good mm-hmm

But then with the revelation of God, for those who are believers, God adds a new dimension by being the ultimate form of the good to, you know, you know, we believe as Christians, beauty is the visible. Of God's ental goodness. But, uh, we have that inner need for that. And I've seen so many times in my ministry, people responding, cuz Mike does ministry with us to his music, to his art or other pieces of art.

And not just Mike's there's these major breakthroughs, there's these major insights because it gets at the place of the heart. I like what you said. Beyond words. So this is just a little bit of a plug to say that we, we need this as humans. We, we tend to think of art and beauty as just sort of like a entertainment pastime mm-hmm , but it it's just human need.

Whether you're experiencing suffering or not, but especially for those who are suffering so good. And it's a good point about, you know, how our brains are integrated. And one of the things, when you were talking about that and my, what you were saying before too, made me think of how, uh, therapists and a lot of healing modalities therapy modalities, um, they use are.

As a part of healing, which is beautiful. And so not only can a piece of art itself, if you experience it on your own, be healing, but even in therapy, you could end up doing some sort of art therapy, which I think it just proves the point again, that art can be incredibly healing. And, um, I love that point you guys made about, yeah, it goes beyond words cuz I think that's why when.

You know, if you're feeling down, you put on a song we've had, we've had artists on the show, musical artists, and, uh, you know, when you're feeling down, you put on a song and for some reason you get comfort from that. And it's, it's kind of intriguing. It's like, why is that? And one of the reasons I think is that yeah, they say things that maybe you can express, um, maybe in a better way than you can.

And then the second reason is probably, uh, Don't feel as alone cuz there's someone else, at least who, you know, is ex has experienced something that, that you have experienced, which I think is so good, man. There's so much more to say on this, but thank you for explaining that. And when we say art, uh, the thing that comes to my mind and Mike correct me if I'm wrong here.

I think of paintings. I think of, like you said, animations, I think of movies, stories. I think of music. It really can encompass more than maybe what people think of as like a painting in the Louv or something like that. Yeah. Anything add to. I think, I mean, in regard to what Dan said too, there's a certain sense in which we can, if we all do have sort of an inner, we have an inner artist in all of us, we're able to also to shape and form and create our own our, our life, you know, uh, and, uh, to begin to kind of order bring order to the sort of chaos that's that's around us, you know?

So there's a, there's a way in which. Even beyond the, the, the material things you just mentioned, you know, uh, you know, a sculpture piece of art or something like that, that art can be something that almost extends into non-material in that way. You know what I mean? Beautiful. So, yeah, just, just to add to that, I mean, we understand art in the broadest terms or beauty.

I mean, I prefer the word word, beauty art is one expression of it. Beauty is the visible form of the. It's the visible form. So it's, it's this beautiful life. It's beautiful creation. I mean, now the creative arts, which is what you're speaking about, which is the more narrow set is the music, the, uh, movies, the storytellings, the paintings.

I would just add here, shout out, uh, for poets. Poetry is my big thing that I use to help heal from my parents' divorce early on in my marriage. Or marriage, ah, in my healing journey, I've also used it in my marriage, but, uh, for different reasons to celebrate love. So yeah, I would just add poetry, but that, that I think is the creative arts, which is a unique subset of, of beauty, which is this larger, visible form of the good, so good shifting gears to a little bit more personal topic.

How has art been healing, uh, for both of you in particular and what art in particular, Dan, if we could start with you. Well, I think there's two sizes of this question. There's the art that I've received and there's the art that I've created that I've helped to heal the art that I've received. Man, there's so much , uh, it's hard.

I, I, Joey was kind enough to share some of these questions in advance. I was thinking about which one to two I wanna share, but I want the audience to know that there's like really like 50. Um, nice. Um, okay. For movies. Because I, I think movies have always played a big role, uh, in my healing kept me if you can, this is great Spielberg film just really captured the pain that you learned.

Divorce. There's this just wonderful scene, tragic scene, really sad scene, but just like nailed it. I remember seeing this, um, with, uh, Lena AR de de capo, he's the child of divorce and his parents are sitting in a room with a lawyer and the lawyers. Okay. I need you to choose which home for you to live with your mother or your father.

Now I'm not gonna leave until you choose. I'm gonna go outta the room, but you gotta choose. There's no wrong answer. This is a lawyer and Caprio's like, I'm outta here and just runs. That's the point where he runs because there is no right answer, right? like, like there is no right answer. Actually the lawyer is wrong, right.

He wanted to live with both of them. He didn't wanna have to choose one or the other. And there was just so much that movie. About being a people pleaser that I could relate to with de capo, that was like my way of coping. So just that whole movie and its portrayal of overcoming a pan divorce Spielberg, by the way, is child of divorce.

And I just, I don't know, his movies will always resonate with me. I just feel like so many of his movies deal with his own childhood wounds, like ETS, his, the famous one that dealt with his childhood wounds. So there's that I would also say, oh man, like artwork. There was a specific piece of our work. It's, it's an unknown artist of the sacred heart of Jesus, just crying.

And, um, I'll have to send a link. You can put in the show notes, it's an unknown artist and doesn't have a title, but just of Christ weeping that really moved me early on in my healing journey that we had a God that wept with me. And I had always. You know, perfect fake Jesus, where he is always calm, cool, and control.

Even on the cross. Like it doesn't even look sometimes like some of the depictions of Jesus on the cross, like he's suffering. It just seems like so beyond, already in the resurrection, which is fine, you know, but, um, there was just this one weeping Christ that has always, really struck me as like getting my pain.

But anyways, those are the two I would say for art movies, sacred art. There's some poems which maybe if I have some. I can share, but I want to let Mike jump in. Yeah. Mike, please. Thanks for sharing that. So I, you might be able to see behind me on the wall, right. There is an image of the blue Madonna by Carlo Dolche.

When I was a student in Sarasota, Florida in art school, I would go to the Ringling museum. Often, and I walked through this hall of Rembrandt and in that hall, there was also, uh, a Carla DCI painting, uh, called the blue Madonna. And it's, it's very simply, it's just a portrait of our lady and it's almost completely in darkness with this really saturated blue that you feel like you can almost put your fingers into.

It's like just thick, uh, like, like an ocean. I don't know how he did. I really don't know how he did it, but the thing that, that grabbed me, uh, initially was that there was this little sliver of light across her face that just illuminated just enough of her face that you saw the, the beauty of her features.

And at that point in my life, I was really in a, in, uh, what you would call it darkness. I had, I had this burden of a really long term, uh, pornography, a. That started before the age sometime it's kind of fuzzy for me, but sometime before the age of 10, where I was able to get ahold of it on a daily basis and just, it just latched into me like talents, you know?

So when I got to college things just kind of gave me an opportunity for things to spiral out of control in a certain sense. And so I was dealing with, uh, friends who had had, who got contracted STDs and had an abortion and all, all these different things in my mind was really just kind of swimming with what is all this, what is all this about, you know, life

And, uh, so I, I was kind of miserable that day and I was walking through the, the museum and I just stopped in front of this painting. And it. It, it like hit me, like, um, almost like an electrical feeling, you know, all through my body. and I stood in front of this painting and, you know, it was a good thing.

There was nobody in the gallery at the time, but I, I just started weeping, like a big ugly cry, like a, you know, snotty, ugly, cry, just like it was like my entire life just gushed out my face , you know? And, uh, when I meant, I meant what I said before about art being able to touch places that were sort of.

Untouchable. There was a place where I didn't even have words. I didn't even know why I was weeping at the time. It was just, it just felt like I was standing in front of beauty and I wanted to cry for it and because of it, and, uh, that moment was the beginning of my conversion. And having not grown up in with Christian faith, you know, to speak of and, and really discovering the church.

And also the beginning, first day of the beginning of my healing from porn. So the artwork has absolutely beautiful artwork, especially with God's. In, it has absolutely the power to bring us, uh, to a place of complete transformation or, or, and it begins the path of transformation. It's the spark, it's the initial kind of flame that gives us the desire to change our life.

I, I think that's probably the most, that's probably the best illustration I can give, but obviously film books, everything that's affected my life continually, deeply. That experience was the first time in my life that I, I realized that that art has a power. Beyond what the artist can manifest. Wow, incredible.

Thanks so much for being so vulnerable and sharing all that. Uh, yeah, so, so profound and I, I looked up the painting to, to see it at a closer, uh, level and it it's beautiful. It's striking. And, um, now I can relate so much, uh, to you. I was 11 years old when I saw pornography and that led to a struggle. And, uh, thankfully I was able like you to get that outta my life.

There, there are a lot of things that contributed to getting outta my life, but, um, I think really just, uh, an encounter of like real beauty and to see the distortion of beauty within pornography, it almost makes it unattractive. Like obviously there's the, you know, biological response to an image like that, but, um, really it, it becomes unattractive when you encounter beauty.

At a more profound level. And I remember one of the things that have been helpful and healing for me over the years when it comes to art. I don't know if it, Dan, I think it fits more of what you were saying is like just beauty, not creative art, but sunsets. Like, I just love sunsets. I always have grown up in the Midwest.

We always had great sunsets and. When I was going through a lot of the stuff with, you know, my family breaking apart and my parents getting divorced, uh, that was honestly a source of consolation for me, just like watching a sense that whether I was like feeling very anxious or down, it would always bring some sort of life either to calm me when I felt anxious or to give me some life when I felt kind of numb or depressed.

And so, uh, that in itself was, was really helpful and healing. And, uh, another thing too. My favorite movie, I have a lot of favorite movies. I love movies. Uh, but probably my favorite one is Batman begin. Excellent movie, you know, Christopher, Nolan's just an incredible director and Christian Bell did a great job playing Bruce Wayne in that movie.

Part of the reason I, I relate with it so much is, uh, Bruce lost his parents. He lost his family. And I think that's what we feel like when we're going through our parents' divorce or the breakdown of our family is like, we really it's a very real loss, something we need to grieve and something that's not supposed to be that way.

Just like the way that Bruce's parents got gunned down, uh, in the movie. And I always thought it was so powerful how he took that pain. Took that brokenness. And though it started to destroy him, his anger, his rage, his desire for revenge, though, it started to destroy him and lead him down a bad path.

Eventually through the help of others, he redirected that to. Serve justice like to, to help people to do good, not to, just to destroy and super revenge as can be tempting, you know, for those of us who've been harmed, which, which I always related to. It's like, okay, that's the type of person. I wanna become someone who, who has been wounded, who has been hurt, who has been through trauma, who then takes that, that energy, that power and redirects it in something that's good and beautiful.

And, uh, and so that movie has been particularly healing, uh, for me. And it's something I, I never get tired watching that movie. Um, there's so much we could say. I do wanna shift Dan over to you and just see, like speaking to people like us who come from, uh, separated families or divorced families. Yeah. How, how might art be helpful for people like us in particular, in addition to everything we've already said?

Yeah. I mean, I think. I'm not gonna do justices story, but I'll, I'll use somebody who's come through our ministry. There's, there's a great blog post that will talk about her. We use art, like on our retreats. There's tons of arts in our books and that anyways, there's a great blog post. You want to hear more about the story called remaining secure in the father's love on our, on our blog, on our website life given wounds.org, but anyways, she talks about.

How she had this major breakthrough. Now she comes from this really bad background with a lot of, uh, domestic abuse as well. And she talks about this major breakthrough through a piece of art that was in our retreat guide. And it is, I always script the name. Jesus carried up to a pinnacle of the temple by James TSAT.

T I S S O T it's just great work. It's really hard at first. If you look at it, it looks really ugly, cuz it depicts Satan curing up Jesus to the pinnacle. But what's interesting is, is Satan looks super evil and ugly. Now she was reflecting on this art. It was like the representation of all these memories that just kept her just in this darkness, especially with the abuse there's particular memories.

It just would suck her down in what she believed about herself, that she was at fault for the abuse. This is what she deserved, all this like ugly stuff. And she'd been, you know, at therapy for just a number of years. But what just struck her was Jesus, just countenance. And this picture, despite all the ugliness around it, it's modern art.

modern. Art's very good depicting suffering. Ugliness. He's just so peaceful. His countenance is so peaceful and that led her to reflect. So it allowed her to explore her own suffering, some deep memories that she just couldn't access and to have a tremendous insight. That what I need to do instead of beat up myself, instead of think that I'm at fault when I know I'm not, and to be trapped in this darkness of these replays of these horrific memories, and they're really horrific, she comes from a very, like I said, domestic abuse, survivor, some really horrific things in her life that I need to remain secure in the father's love.

So it gave her this insight and then a new path to work on her healing. So I think great art allows us to explore suffering in the way that words can. It gives us these breakthroughs and insights. Mike just talked about the breakthrough that he had and then it enthusiasms for work. But then finally it, it helps us to raise above ourselves to, to raise above the junk, the suffering, to go beyond what we think we're capable.

But then the beautiful thing is, as we do the work, we come back to the need, to also contemplate. That's key for our healing is to not just get stuck in the suffering, but to rise above it. And ultimately we want to contemplate beauty more than think about the suffering. Now, again, suffering is gonna be with us till the day we die.

I'm not saying we leave suffering completely behind, but we have this need to come back and contemplate beauty. So I don't want anybody listening to this show. Think of beauty and art as just a means to an end, rather it is also an end. Of our healing. We, we want people to come back. So this woman also particularly found healing to continue to contemplate the beauty of Christ and his expression that artwork remains secure in the father's love.

Again, I'm not doing this story justice, but this is an example of how art can move us and heal us and come back to it. And, and you just sort of like meditate and contemplate that, you know, like you were talking about Joey, like the, the sunsets. Okay. That's beauty. Because again, creative arts, which is the paintings and things like that.

That's a subset of beauty. We need to come back and contemplate that beauty. We need to step back and rest in that from time to time in our life where our life will be empty. So that's just what I would say as an example of like how beauty it doesn't just heal, but it's part of the good life. It's part of the thriving, it's part of, you know, the joy that God.

Desires for us. Yeah. It's not just something you use, like you said, and then it's like a tool that you use to heal and then you're done with it, but it's really something that can give you life and help you thrive, uh, as a person. And no, I think this makes so much sense going to like the more specific application of healing.

Uh, one thing you made me think of is sometimes people get a little confused about experiences maybe they've had before they were. Able to cognitively remember them. And one distinction I've heard psychologists talk about, which I think is helpful in this discussion of art and how art can be healing and helpful.

We kinda have two different types of memory. There's explicit memory, which is more of like a cognitive memory. Like it's a vivid memory. We could recall a vivid scene, for example. And then we also have, um, what neurobiologists call, um, implicit memory, which would be, we can call it like emotional memory. I don't know if that's perfectly accurate, but let's just call it that, that emotional memory really are those things that we maybe can't again, vividly remember, or perhaps not even put into words, at least not yet, but it certainly affected.

And I've heard stories of people who they ha have experiences when they're, you know, babies. And then they go through life, you know, struggling with certain things or having, you know, certain temptations or whatever. And then later they learn, oh, wow. I went through this experience, which I didn't even remember can't recall, but it really impacted me.

And so I think that's part of the reason why these pieces of art or even beauty itself can be so evocative and help us heal is. They're pulling on maybe something in our past and helping us, like you said, access that and then hopefully heal it. And I know that's what happened with me when it comes to, you know, what I was saying about the Batman begins there's, you know, something inside me that was like relating to that, even at a level that I couldn't fully cognitively understand.

And I that's how I heard psychologists talk about that. When you watch a movie. Or you, you find yourself emotionally moved by something it's usually because some sort of memory's being triggered, even if it's not a vivid, uh, cognitive memory might be more of an emotional one. Mike, I was curious if you, uh, had anything to add about, you know, how you've seen art be healing, particularly for children of divorce or separation.

Um, well, you know, I mean, as in regards to the, the painting that we did for life giving wounds, which we'll speak about in a little. For me, that's, it's an example of how surprising it often is that, you know, as an, as an artist, you. You develop a piece of work, you think about the different symbolisms. You try to incorporate as much of it as you can into the, into the artwork itself.

Uh you're as you're accomplishing it, you're thinking of new things. There's little sort of aha moments where you realize, wow, I didn't realize I, I, I did that, but it's there, you know, it's just, you know, little stroke of, of. God, uh, opening it up, you know, even to the artist's mind, but what's astonishing to me so many times that folks, when they see the painting or any, any work that I intend for, for healing purpose, that they'll, they'll come out with things that are, are so integral to their life.

Uh, they'll come up with meanings that I couldn't have perceived, you know, at the time. And, uh, so the. Art has, this has this way of, of really just beyond the artist's intention beyond, uh, the intention of, you know, the person who commissioned the work. There is an all, there is another intention. It's the intention of God's use his, his own intention for the work and how it'll be used in the healing process.

And I, I, I just lo one of the things I love the most about it is just how unique an individual it is to each person. Um, They perceive the thing that their heart is in need of perceiving. No, it's so good. I love that. And I think, uh, one of the ways it's helped me and helped people we've worked with too.

And I know you both know this, but one of the steps in healing is often just putting words to your experiences into the wounds that you've experienced. And, uh, I think art does well in kind of putting on us on that road, which, which I think is, is so good and so beautiful. Dan, I wanna go to. Tell us about the artwork that you commissioned Mike to create?

Uh, why did you commission it? Yeah, so we commissioned an artwork, a sacred artwork for the healing of children divorce. And it came out of, I mean, frankly to my knowledge and research, I could not. Find a painting for us, for a children divorce that had a Christian theme primarily. No. If any of your listeners know of anything, I'm happy to be wrong about this and I would, and I would love, I would love to, to see more sacred art for children divorce.

So any listeners out there, if you know of something, please email me and Joey, I would love. Always loved to collect that. But anyways, I couldn't find anything. I did pretty exhaustive research and I'm like, you know what? I just really want to create sacred art for the healing of children and divorce, sacred art here being specifically Christian.

And so I came to Mike many years ago cuz again, knowing the need for the creative arts and healing and the importance of beauty many years ago with its desire to create something for us, for our healing and around the same time too, I had a really beautiful experience of artwork at the national gallery of art.

I live in Washington, DC of Picasso's painting the tragedy. So again, you speak of artwork that loses us the tragedy of 1923. Really move me and it depicts the tragedy that's happening in the family. He doesn't really say what the tragedy is, but one of the interpretations of the tragedy by Picasso, um, of 1923 is that it was divorced or separation or some brokenness in the family.

That's one interpretation. It could be other things. Uh, and they're on the beach. And what's interesting about, is it captures the sadness. I remember seeing this and like you, Mike, I was, I was weeping in the art gallery, hoping nobody would see. Uh, when I saw this national go virus, this was like 2011, 2012.

And just like really? Yeah. It felt like it captured my sorrow, but the interesting thing, and, and so I loved it. It captured my grief. And again, one of our struggles as adults learn a divorce were children, a divorce is having our grief acknowledged. So I, I felt here Picasso nailed it. He nailed the grief, but it stopped.

And as a Christian, I wanted hope as well. And, uh, Paul talks about Christians are called to grieve with hope to be different than just secular views of grieving as the grieve with hope. So I wanted something as a response to the tragedy. And so I commissioned Mike, our ministry commission, Mike, which was crowdfunded by the way, by children are divorced.

So I'm really grateful. Shout out to all the other children, divorce that crowdfunded this, uh, painting to be a response to Picasso's tragedy and, and not a response. And just like, oh, now we're just gonna, all of a sudden have hope and no more grief. Like there's still grief in the painting. So I don't want to give that view, but to be a dial, maybe a better word is a dialogue with Picasso's tragedy, but something that could be healing as.

For the children divorce. So that, that was a little bit of like the personal circumstances that led to. And then, um, why we commissioned Mike cuz we saw this great need of the creative arts and healing specifically on the retreats. And so we created, it's called an, let Mike talk a little bit more about it.

It's called let the children of divorce come to me. So from the, you know, famous biblical passage, let, let the children come to me here. We put in, let the children in divorce come to me. So we, you know, switched it up there a little bit. Uh, but Mike, I, I don't know if you wanna. Say more or Joey, did you have something to say first?

Yeah. No, that, that's amazing. Thank you for explaining. And we'll put a link in the show notes so you guys can look at it. I, uh, and perhaps while you're listening right now, if you wanna pull it up, um, as Mike gives us maybe a little bit of a further explanation of. The symbolism he used. Um, you can look at it and Mike can talk through it.

So Mike, if you would, yeah. Talk us through the symbolism and the different parts of this piece of art in particular, please. Well, can I just give the link if you pull it up just to follow it? It's life giving wounds.org/sacred art for children and divorce. So that'll be the best to follow along. Sounds great.

And that link will be in the show notes as well. Yeah. So this was kind of a, a unique challenge, uh, for me as an artist, because I knew that what the ministry wanted was. This dialogue with Picasso. And, you know, I knew what I knew of Picasso was at least outwardly, he, you know, rejects the, the, this idea of God, uh, he rejects.

So in, in that he would reject the, the, the, the possibility of the transcendence sort of giving life or informing anything. in the world, you know? Um, so there would be, he'd probably have very little to say about the symbolism that could PO you know, that could happen. And so I I've never done anything like this before as the point that I've never, I never specifically intended to set out creating a piece of art dialoging with an artist of this type.

It's actually not within my style or even in interest, at least in, in his modern art and. The, the challenge for me was, well, I wanted to create a piece of art that that was obviously in dialogue with, with Picasso. So I tried to really kind of step into his way of painting as best I could, his palette as best I could.

And to try to describe what we in the ministry wanted to, to describe what the commissioned. in a way that people viewing the original, the tragedy of Picasso could, could see it, uh, in, in dialogue, if that makes sense. So that's, that's the reason why the, the artworks sort of look like they belong together in a lot of ways, you know, that the, the life giving wounds artwork is, as Dan said, not exactly giving you this idea that, you know, as you step towards Christ, there will be no more suffering, but that.

There is a great deal of hope in this image. So as regards to the image itself, if you have it in front of you, it helps a lot. the, the overall symbolism in, in the image. I think what we wanna share is that, is that the, the, the child's face being lifted into the gaze of Christ is. The primary part of the encounter here, Christ looks into the eyes of the child.

He's extending his hand above the, the hand of the child. And you see sort of this light kind of emanating from the wound of Christ into the child's hand, which also bears a similar wound. And then from the, the wound of the child's hand, the, the same light of Christ is then, uh, Even, uh, the feat of his parents, uh, is a symbol of illumining the world.

So the central focus and idea, I think for this image is that the wounds that we carry can be healed, but can also be a fountain of grace, not only for ourself, but also for the life of the. . Yeah. So there's that the, the one thing we wanted to, to also communicate is that the two parents are, even though that they're sort of more together on the, on the right side of the image, they're not exactly together.

Their backs are turned towards each other. They're both still interested in, in what's what's happening at least to the child, although they, they don't turn their eyes to him completely. Yeah. Just add in. Yeah, go ahead. The second. About the eyes, cuz the eyes are important in the picture. One of the things Mike beautifully displayed is it's awesome that you did this cuz I didn't ask him to do this in Picasso's original piece.

No one is looking at the child and is suffering. The child is utterly alone, even though he's surrounded by his parents. I just thought that captured so beautifully. That's why I wept at it. The, the pain and suffering. And again here, the parents aren't. Exactly focused on the child. Yeah. They kind of see the hands, but they're still missing the child.

So there's still that pain. There's still this suffering. The parents have their back turn. There's still this ongoing suffering that emanates from the divorce, from the separation. So again, the goal of painting is not just say, say, oh, hope over suffering. But hope in the suffering. There's both realities here, but the key here that Mike depicted is, again, this is the holy spirit moment.

Is Christ lifting the gaze of the kids face to him saying you are not alone. I see you. I see your pain and I love you. So unlike Picasso's pain where no one's looking at the child. Christ is looking at the child and he is actually lifting up his head because again, in Picasso's painting, the child is way down.

He's looking down at his feet. What is that? Shame, fear, burden, whatever that is. And he's still struggling with it in his painting, such that Christ gently touches his, his chin and raises his him up saying like, no, no more shame. No more loneliness. No more. or if you have these things I'm with you and that's okay.

So this just, uh, I just love that you depicted this mic and I think this comes from. To working in our ministry. And we often say, too, when we look at this painting, it really is a composition of so many children are divorced that we've accompanied as their experience here and this painting, they they're really, it's their experiences that created this painting.

It's just so beautiful that you depicted. The child's head being raised up. And I, I just think that's a key symbolism of, of the painting. And if you feel alone out there, I hope it comes as a comfort. Beautiful. There's so much air. I feel like you could talk about this for like an hour is there anything else in particular, like I see.

So if I'm seeing this right, um, is that water in the background and then there's a boat, is that right? And then at the bottom. It looks like a toy horse and then a rose. Am I saying that right? Or correct me if I'm wrong, please? Yes. You're saying that right. They're the, they're still standing on the beach, you know, as in the Picasso's tragedy, although Christ is coming towards the child, walking on the water and you see the child, uh, stepping forward the.

One foot on the land and one foot in the water or on top of the water. Again, I, I like the idea of the image of the child con sort of continually stepping forward towards Christ, you know, the need to continually step forward to, to the one who really does acknowledge the wound, you know, uh, so deeply as to carry it in him himself.

Uh, the there's a lot of little, uh, symbolisms, uh, in the articles on the ground. The one that strikes me. Really profoundly as the broken horse is one, one of the, um, typical, uh, wounds of, of children of divorce is you hear often as this lost childhood, you know, a lot of children from of divorce will say things like, you know, I don't remember.

I don't really remember play or really being able to play. So we wanted to, we wanted to acknowledge that wound with this little, little toy broken, you know, and if you see the original tragedy image, the, the, the young boy is sort of wrapped in the, it's kind of hard to describe or see, it's, it's kind of some sort of a heavy shawl or, or blanket of some kind.

And in this. Almost like a poncho joke, something like that, you know? Yeah. And, and in this image, he's dropped it behind him. This heaviness, he leaves it. He leaves it behind on, on the beach as he steps forward on the water. Beautiful. And the rose, I'm just curious about that. And you wanna speak about the rose.

Again, we wanna acknowledge this idea of the struggles and love the struggles of love. Now, the rose represents more than just the struggles of love, but, uh, one of the things they had asked Mike to depict was again, in this painting, all the different, various sufferings and balloons that children divorce could experience.

And there's a lot more here that is being left unsaid, but the, but the rose definitely the fall, it's a fallen rose. It's a fallen rose, uh, representing the difficulties of, of love. Um, also if you see the Picasso painting, you'll see his pocket is bulging. Yeah. And again, we were kind of like imagining what would a kid like have in his pocket?

And if you know anything about kids, it's like this random assortment of films. Yeah. So. and, and literally, like I asked my daughter, like, what do you have in your pockets today? Like sort of they inform this artwork and sure enough, she had like flower pedals, she had random string and a different toy. She didn't have a toy horse.

So like the different items, like there's a string there, there's the broken horse, the, the fallen rose, like you can imagine like a kid just sort of like stuffing them in the pocket. and that's sort of like when he casts aside that heavy, outer. That he's wearing a Picasso's, uh, tragedy, like all the stuff sort of like falls out everywhere.

So that's kind of also where some of that symbolism comes. And, and can I just say one thing, some Mike said that's really important for the artwork that we do sort of give away, so to speak on our website, we, we try not to explain all the symbolism, but we try to explain some of it is, is that, that foot, that Mike talks about how.

We have this continual need to meet, meet Christ for our healing, but it takes an act of faith. And I know there's some listeners out there. Maybe you're not Christian. Maybe you're struggling with your belief in God. Maybe you are Christian, but struggling with your belief in God. A huge part of our healing is the need to make that act of faith.

The step out on those waters, even when it's scary, even when it's difficult. And, and what does that concretely look like to do that? It's very simple. Inviting Jesus into the pain. And so that foot, that step meeting Christ is a symbol of that, that step that we need to take to invite Jesus into the pain.

And if you do, we'll find that he's already met us and he's, he's running towards us. So that'ss part of the symbolism there. There's so much more I'm sure we can say. And if you guys go to the webpage and, uh, take a look at the art itself, there is an explanation of kind of the different components of the symbolism that you can, uh, read through, which is cool.

And then on that page too, you'll see, uh, Picasso's original piece. And, uh, I think that kind of, it's like the key to this piece that you guys commissioned that Mike, you designed it it's yeah. Just makes so much more sense once you understand, uh, Picasso's piece. And I think it's a cool, uh, contrast to. Uh, what you guys are trying to lead people to, which is healing and wholeness, which is amazing.

Um, so much more I'm sure we can say on that. If you guys wanna add any final thoughts, feel free, but I did wanna, uh, ask you Mike, if people wanted to look at more of your artwork in particular, not just this one, how could they, I'm the best place to see it is my website, which is Michael corsini.com. And then on socials, Instagram and Facebook it's, uh, Michael Corsini art you'll find me.

Sounds great. And are you taking commissioned art as well? If someone listening maybe wants to do something every year, I, I have a certain amount of time for commissions. And so I, I have a little opening this fall, even if, if that's a possibility for someone. Yeah. Sounds great. Thanks for that. Um, Dan, before we go over you, I just wanna say two things I love about this piece of art.

One is, um, I love how Jesus is crying if I'm seeing that, right. Maybe I'm not um, I think that's beautiful kind of being with their, with us in the pain, as opposed to kind of being above it or removed from it. And you guys explained that well already. And then the second thing I thought was appropriate was just how, um, the parents, you know, look like they're dealing with their own pain, which is so often the case, right?

Part of the reason that we get ignored so much when we're going through our own pain of a broken family of our parents getting divorced or separated is that, um, our parents are so caught up in their own suffering and their own brokenness in their own emotions that they often just overlook what, what we're going through as well.

So I think that's a very accurate depiction. I love that you guys did that as well. And, uh, and that's not meant to bash parents in any way, but just to kind of speak to the reality and hopefully encourage. Not just the child to look up to Christ, but the parents look to the child and the parents to look to Christ as well.

So a lot, lot of beauty there there's so much more we could say, but Dan, I wanna throw it over to you to add any final thoughts and if people wanna buy the artwork or view it, you mentioned the link already. We'll show throw that in the show notes, but if they wanna buy the artwork, Or maybe attend one of your retreats.

How can they do that? Yeah, I mean, you go to our website, life.org, click on retreats to find out more in person retreats. We'll also be doing an online retreat. You can also purchase the artwork in various sizes, including on a prayer card as well. Uh, on our website, just go to our store and for restored listeners, we're happy to give a 20% discount for both the artwork.

And if you want to attend the online retreat, just use the code restored with the capital R uh, really grateful to. Joey in his ministry. And my last word is just simply seek beauty, seek beauty in your life, not just for healing. That's really important. Define the rest that you're craving for. And don't settle for beauty.

That's not a form of the good. That's not a form of the good, like you mentioned earlier in the show pornography what's lacking. Why is that not beautiful? It's not a form of the good, it's not the visible form of the good. So see beauty. That's the visible form of the good, whether that's in creation or here, we've talked a lot about the creative arts.

Beautiful Mike, any final words, uh, from you, any encouragement or advice to someone who comes from a broken family who feels stuck and broken? I just kind of piggyback on what Dan said is, is just seek out beauty that will, will give you rest, but, uh, allow when, when you do encounter it, just be sure. And, and try as best you can to, to not allow anything within yourself to block.

It's movement really just allow it to wash over you and trust, uh, that, that beauty is, uh, restoring. Just one more thing, cuz you reminded me of it. So I have to piggy back, uh, St. John Paul second, when I feel like we gotta get him in here, at least once he loved the arts, uh, he would always quote his favorite poet, Norwood.

He said beauty infuses us for work and work raises us up. So if, if a beautiful art as Mike. Moves you to work, work on your healing or convert in some aspect of your life, whatever the case may be. To give in to, to move that that therein is, uh, a special grace. So just to dovetail on Mike, to allow beauty to en infuse us for work and to allow that work to raise us up.

I mentioned the episode with the two musicians, Jenny and Tyler that's episode 51, in case you wanted to listen to. If you wanna buy the artwork or attend the fall 2022 retreat, just enter the discount code restored for a discount. Again, restored all capital letters, restored with a D at the end. And you can just click on the link in the show notes to learn more about that and to view Michael Corine's artwork.

If you're not aware, restored has an online community. I'll tell you how to join that. But first, some of the benefits you'll have a safe place to speak openly about the pain and problems you face because of the breakdown of your parents' marriage. And. We'll help you not feel so alone. And you'll also be challenged to grow into a.

Stronger person. So if you wanna join our online community, just go to restored ministry.com/community. Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/community. Just fill out the quick form there, and then we'll add you to the group again. Restored ministry.com/community. Thank you so much for listening.

Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#078: Ashamed of Your Past? It Doesn’t Need to Dictate Your Future | Crystalina Evert

If you’re ashamed of your past because of mistakes or abuse, it’s natural to feel stuck. But you don’t have to stay stuck. Healing and freedom are possible for you.

Author and speaker Crystalina Evert vulnerably shares how her broken family and sexual abuse caused her to cope with drugs, drinking, and sleeping around. We also discuss:

• Tactics that have helped her heal

• A new book to help any woman, especially women who have suffered abuse

• Advice and encouragement to women who’ve suffered abuse or feel broken

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  • Women Made New: Reflections on Adversity, Transformation and Healing | Crystalina Evert

  • Made New: Healing and Hope for Abuse Survivors | Crystalina Evert

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you've made a lot of mistakes in your life, those mistakes can haunt you and leave you feeling stuck. I know this personally and worse than that, if you were abused that trauma can also haunt you and leave you feeling stuck, but you don't have to stay there. Healing is possible. Freedom is possible.

And my guess today, Proves that I'm thrilled for you to hear from author and speaker Lina Everett, as a little girl, she suffered abuse in the breakdown of her family. And as a result of that trauma, she acted out in all sorts of ways, using drugs, drinking, partying, and sleeping around just to numb the pain that she was experiencing.

And all those things left her feeling ashamed, stuck, and really broken. And in this episode, she vulnerably shares her story and how the abuse and brokenness in her family has affected her. We also discuss how her brokenness has affected her relationships and even her marriage. She offers some tactics that have helped her heal and can help you too.

We discuss how her life drastically transformed. Once she dedicated herself to healing. She also announces a new book for women, especially women who've suffered abuse. And finally, she gives advice and encouragement. Tell you women out there who've suffered abuse or just feel broken, really incredible show, really inspiring story.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 78, as I said, my guest today is Chris Salina Everett. She's the founder of women made new and co-founder of the chastity project.

Kina is the best selling author of pure womanhood. How to find your soulmate without losing your soul and their curriculum you life love. And the theology of the body kina has spoken internationally to more than 1 million people about the virtue of chastity healing and God's plan for human sexuality.

She has a weekly syndicated radio show on EWTN and has made television appearances on MSNBC. And the BBC network, Lina has hosted several television series for teens and women on EEW, TN she and her husband, Jason have spoken at world youth, a in Sydney, Madrid and Poland, and most importantly, crystalline and her husband have been blessed with eight children before we dive in.

I just wanted to say that kina is a Catholic Christian. And so she's speaking from that point of view, she talks about God. She talks about faith. If that's not you, if you don't believe in God, I'm so glad you're here. My challenge for you is this, listen with an open mind. Even if you take out the God parts, you're still gonna get a lot out of this episode.

CRI story is just so inspiring. So beautiful. So definitely listen and again, take the God parts out if you need to. Uh, but you're still gonna benefit a lot from this episode. So here's my conversation with kina Everett

kina. It's so good to have you on the show. Thanks so much for making time for. Oh, it's such an honor. Thank you for asking me. I'm really excited about your book launch. We'll get into, uh, the book. Uh, I wanted to start with your story. I've always been inspired by your story because most people that have been through what you've been through really don't end up where you are today.

Like, you've been such an inspiration to me. Often, people like us who go through all the abuse, the dysfunction in our families. We end up repeating that cycle of dysfunction in our own lives. We feel stuck. We feel like we can't heal. We can't change. We can't improve. We can't grow. And now before we get to the healing and how you avoided repeating that cycle of dysfunction, I I'd love to start at the beginning.

Like so many people, uh, listening right now. You also come from a broken family. I'm curious. What was life like for you grow. Well, the only, I don't have many memories of my father, but one memory I do have he left when I was two. And the one memory I do have is actually of him walking away and leaving.

You know, I haven't never really verbalized that before , but I, I have this memory of being a child and just crying as a little girl. And I remember he gave me these gummy bears, but other than that, I don't have a huge memory of him, but I think I learned at a very young age that love doesn't last and love is not a forever thing.

and because I didn't have my father growing up and I came from that broken family and there was a lot of divorce and infidelity that I witnessed growing up as well. It was everywhere around me with my mother's siblings and just in the culture in itself. And even in the high school I went to, it was just like, well, it wasn't a big deal.

You know, it, it was like nothing. And you were supposed to just slough it off as it, while it was nothing right. Hmm. But growing up because I thought, well, love doesn't last. And it's not a forever thing. I was getting that love, obviously that I needed. And, and as a child, there was a lot of abuse. And so getting into high school, I.

I was looking for love, obviously in that acceptance and self-worth more than anything. And I had my first quote unquote, serious relationship, but, um, he said he loved me. I thought he did. And, and my friends were like, well, if, if he loves you, what's the big deal. You know? And, and physically, we just kind of kept pushing it and pushing it and pushing it until it came to the point where I had to make that decision.

And I ended up sleeping with him and, and because of my own brokenness and because of my, the worthlessness and the wounds that I felt that I carried into a lot of my relationships and it kind of just came out and it was really an unknowing wound I was living out of. Right. For so many years, that relationship ended up ending, of course.

And mm-hmm , you know what, and the people out there maybe will get this and maybe not, but a person knows deep down when they're being used. At first, it starts out in love and you want to be loved and you want, um, that person to love you and you wanna keep their attention. But the thing is at what cost and I paid a high price with that one relationship, but again, it just kind of firmed for me that, well, love doesn't last.

It's not a for everything. And that it is what it is, but I always was looking and I kept giving more and more of myself to get that love that I was searching for to get that self worth that I was looking for. And I always ended up hurt and disappointed and deep down. I knew when I was being used. I knew when it wasn't love, but it's kind of that counterfeit and that lie.

You tell yourself, because I went so far and I got into the drugs and the drinking and promiscuity that, um, it's like you, you slowly justify. You're way into that hole. I dug for myself, right? Yeah. All the way. There's like all these little justifications and all these little, like self sacrifices you make to just keep it up and keep the mask on.

And I felt like I constantly, after I was just living in Halloween, I was just had a mask on every single day. But the thing is the people around me in high school did as well. It was like a Halloween show every day because the things I would witness behind the scenes with my friends and then how they'd show up at school, like nothing even happened.

It was kind of shocking, but cause I came from such chaos and disorder in my own family. It's like, you go into that kind of world and you get submerged into it. It kind of seems normal almost right. A hundred percent. I remember talking to a psychologist about this very topic and she was saying even on the level of our brains, when we come from dysfunction, When we see these very dramatic relationships like between mom and dad, if they fought a lot, if things were loud and you know, there's a lot of anger at home.

When we come from that healthy relationships can actually feel boring. They could actually feel uninteresting because we've been so accustomed to like this almost excitement, this trauma. And if a relationship lacks that we think, well, this isn't interesting, this isn't for me. And we actually reject that and go towards those very unhealthy relationships that we know we're not made for, but they seem comfortable.

And also you're always just questioning in the back of your mind, if you don't heal, do they really love me? Are they really gonna be here? Is this rail? Yeah. You know, is this gonna truly last? And you almost kind of set yourself up for failure waiting for it all to fall apart because that's you do, right.

So we're not, we, we get uncomfortable. I feel in, um, stability. So when you are in that stability and you aren't healed. It's almost an uncomfortable situation, cause you're always waiting for the ground to fall beneath. 100%. And that's why your message is so important of, of healing and growth. Because once you go through that process and it is a continual process, but there is a lot of progress you can make in corners, you can turn, but once you go through that process, then you're setting the foundation to build that stable life, those stable relationships on.

And I, I want to get to that in a little bit here, but I, I am curious if there's anything else you would add about how the, the brokenness in your family and how the abuse that you endured, uh, affected you in the years that followed, we kind of got up into, I guess, high school at this point. Was there anything else that you'd like to add.

There was a lot of stuff. It growing up the thing is because I didn't have a father growing up. I really gravitated towards my grandfather. And I spent a lot of time over my grandparents' house. And because my mom was a single mom and she did her best. I mean, she really did. God bless her. And I had a lot of anger growing up towards my mother, but being a mom now and being married and stepping outside of the situation and kind of looking in now, a lot of it makes sense, right?

Yeah. Because when we see our parents acting out or getting angry or yelling, or they're going through their own dysfunction and as a child, you almost feel like it's your own fault. You know, or that you're just this burden on your parents because they're having to deal with you or, or you're having to go back and forth between parents.

Some of you out there are experiencing that. And sometimes you may have felt like a burden. And at times I felt like a burden, right? Yeah. And I never was re like, I felt like I never was affirmed in. You are valued. You are wanted, you are loved. And that was hard. And I did do well as a child in school. I hated school.

I was kind of the problem child out of my sister and I, I only had a sister, so it affected me in a lot of different ways. And again, growing up with that, it really, that wound, you start learning to live out of that. Cause that's kind of the home base of where you're living, going through that trauma day in and day out.

And always wonderful. Why wasn't I enough for my dad to stay? Why didn't he love me enough? What's wrong with me? You know, why did they break up? Was it my fault? Is it, was it my problem and these things going on? And then you slowly silence those voices and you just kind of go through the motions cuz you get used to it.

But it's really just causing that deeper wound that you're just shoving down. Right. Mm-hmm and ignoring coping mechanism. And so I really gravitated towards my grandfather, but he ended up leaving my grandmother. When she was, I think, 50, 50, something years old, and I was devastated. So I felt like I went through it all over again of my grandfather leaving and I felt abandoned again because wow, I wasn't enough for him to stay.

I wasn't enough for him to be there and that broke my heart. And so at that point, I think that's when I really made a personal vow almost of, I will never let a man in and love me because all he's gonna end up doing is destroying me. So I'm gonna be confident, strong, smart, amazing woman, and I'm gonna take care of myself and I'm gonna be prepared that if I do get married at the end of the day, I'm gonna have my own bank account, own money, my own, my own wits about me that I'm not gonna have, I'm not gonna be left behind by someone like a piece of trash at 11 years old.

I remember laying on the stairs, crying, thinking that to myself, Because my grandmother had to witness how devastating it was for her. And I'll, I'll never forget that. And it was so sad watching her cry and sob and, and I didn't fully understand everything cuz I was so young, but at the same time it really had a deep effect on me.

And at that point I, I just cut my grandfather off. I wanted nothing to do with him. So mm-hmm, not just one man left, but two and my grandfather I think was even worse because I had a really good stable relationship with him. And um, even when he did come back to try to have that relationship with me, I just completely rejected him.

I wanted nothing to do, which was hard, but I was so hurt. That's the only thing I knew how to do. And that was the other thing. I trained myself in that woundedness and brokenness just to keep people. Don't let them in because you're just really gonna end up getting hurt. So slowly it's like you're building that wall up around yourself to protect yourself.

Like you, you would keep things out, but you're also keeping so much in too. And you, I couldn't experience that real love for a very long time. It was very hard for me to accept it. Absolutely. And without that vulnerability, like you mentioned, there is no possibility for authentic love, but it is really hard when people like you and me come from broken families.

We've seen this dysfunction we've been let down, we've been abandoned. It's really hard to overcome. That abandonment and begin to love again. And I know in my own story, I was 11 years old when my parents separated. And I remember just being so devastated by the news. I wasn't aware that, I mean, my parents had problems here or there, but it really came out of the blue that they were gonna get divorced.

And so I remember the day my dad left, it was like a warm spring day. My mom sat me and my siblings down. I'm one of six and broke the news. And I remember as an 11 year old boy, I couldn't handle that news. It was truly traumatic for me. And so I just sat in the closet and I cried and sitting in that closet, I felt like you just express.

I felt abandoned. I felt unwanted. And I felt like I just wasn't enough because if I was why weren't mom and dad working this out? And I know there's so many people listening right now who feel that exact same way. And over the years too, I, I blame myself and that's something I'm glad you brought that up.

Cause that's something we hear again and again, there was a dad who reached out to me recently and he shared that, uh, his wife was divorcing him. He didn't want the divorce. She was going through with it. And so really difficult situation. They have one boy, uh, son and, uh, the dad on the day that he was leaving the house, uh, he was in the bathroom, just crying, just devastated by this whole thing.

And his son came in and he looked at his dad and he said, dad, is this my fault? And immediately, you know, the dad wrapped him in his arms and said, no, no, of course it's, it's not your fault that this is, you know, between your mother and I, and so I think so many of us internalize all these things that, that you touched on.

So well, um, feeling abandoned and feeling like it's our fault. And the other thing that I didn't realize what's happening at the time, I shut everything out, but also you're shutting God. You're not, I at least I did. I literally, even at that young age thought whenever I heard of love and, and God is love and, and God is forever.

And this and that, I thought, Izzy really though, like where is he right now? Then? You know? And I didn't really see that a lot in my life. And I feel like at a very young age, God was challenging me in that. And I think a lot of people don't realize how you're being challenged in that as well of your relationship with God.

And a lot of people wanna grow up with that coping mechanism. Oh, well that happened. I was, I was a child. It's not that big of a deal, but that's the thing. And that's the great lie. Isn't it? Because it is a big. It slowly comes out and it bubbles onto all of our different relationships and even to how you parent and how you are a spouse and a lot of different things, it will come out.

If, if you want it to or not knowing or unknowingly, I couldn't agree more in, uh, your new book. You pose a great question related to everything that we're talking about. You say, are you afraid to embrace a specific vocation? Because you fear you will end up like your parents. And that really strikes a nerve for people like us from broken families.

We really fear that. And the young people that we work with through this ministry, we hear that a lot. We are so afraid of making the same mistakes that they did of repeating that cycle of dysfunction and divorce. And even if we don't end up going that way, that the trauma that we've endured so often impacts our vocation, which for most of us looks like our marriage.

And so on that topic to whatever degree you're comfortable with sharing, how has your brokenness affected your marriage? Oh, my goodness. It was a nightmare. I can be very, very honest and candid because I did have my, my kind of come to Jesus moment and I have this conversion. Right. And, and I have to go back in order to tell you how that kind of transpired.

Right. But I, I literally had this moment of this talk where this young man, and it was when I was in high school and it was towards the end, but nobody could Pierce that darkness that I was in. And I don't know if you experienced that, Joey, but I was in such darkness and turmoil and things that I did and how much I gave away.

I felt like nothing. and I hated myself. I hated being in my own skin and I just knew it. Wasn't supposed to be that way. But when you give so much of yourself and what's done is done, you, you kind of, I felt like damaged goods and that nobody could ever really love me because I was so damaged and I caused a lot of it and I allowed a lot of it.

But it was that young man who stood up and had the courage. And I go back to this moment because a lot of people out there don't realize the power of their own testimony to the world and the people around them. And you never know how you can Pierce someone's darkness just by your testimony and how you live and what you've gone through.

And just sharing that with people. Sometimes it helps. And that young man had the courage that day to just get up and talk about all the porn, all of the addiction, everything that he had been into, I felt like he was talking directly to me, but he also talked about how he started over and that he was this new creation.

But the one thing that I just was in awe of, and I couldn't take my eyes off of him, I was in shock almost of how honest he was. He was so honest about where he was at, what he had done. and he wasn't ashamed. And I sat in my seat trying to figure out one day that I hadn't been ashamed of myself and the way I was living and being in my own skin.

And, you know, I couldn't find one, not a single day of carrying that around with me. And I wanted that. I wanted to be done with this shame and this weight and just, I wanted that more than anything. And so just by that testimony and his courage, and they say courage is contagious, I'm sure a lot of you have heard that it really was that day.

And God was able to Pierce that darkness I was in and I was able to come out of it and go to confession for the first time, because I mean, we've all experienced it where we go to confession to go to confession. So either somebody sees us or we feel like we're checking it off, or we're not really giving God everything right.

And all the weight and all the sin and all the yuck. So it held me back a lot for those of you that are Catholic, I think you understand. But that day, I mean, I went to confession for the first time. And it was the most freeing experience that I had had, and it was unbelievable. I can't even describe it, but to go in there with this huge list of all of these things, because I finally really was done with that lifestyle and what that, the grace that came from that young.

Was powerful. And sometimes you don't even realize what you're doing or what you're saying and how the holy spirit is working in you, but that it really can change lives when words have power and what you speak over yourself and what you speak to others has power. And you need to know and learn that power that you have, because it, it is, it's something fierce when you know what you're doing, especially with the grace of God.

Yeah. Does that make sense? Oh, of course. And no, you're, you're hitting the nail on the head. I think back to, you know, after my parents separated. Yeah. I went down a really dark hole. I made a lot of stupid mistakes and got to that numb place that you mentioned, and just so much regret, you know, a lot of sexual mistakes on my part.

And. Just things that I, I wish never happened. And obviously, you know, God's been able to use those and heal me and all that. And I've been able to live a pure life. Thanks to you and Jason like here and Jason, he did for me what that young man had done for you. He really answered all the questions I didn't even realize I had about love and sexuality and, uh, helped set me on that path to living in pure life.

And there was so much peace and so much freedom and so much joy that came from that, that I couldn't have known until I tried it. And, and I think that's one thing important. That's important to say it. you could hear about it all day, how peaceful and good and happy you can be if you live this like good pure life.

Um, but until you actually try it, you're not gonna experience that. And so, uh, once I did, I experienced it, I was like, oh, I never want to go back to another way, but going back to the numbness, then I wanna let you comment on that. Yeah. I totally experienced that. And even in the years that followed after I turned my life around, uh, I still experienced that numbness and what I realized in time, Is that it's actually a trauma response and it's actually a really good thing that our bodies, our brains do when we're in traumatic situations is that we become numb because if we were to feel all of the emotions that we could feel in a traumatic experience or moment, uh, we would just collapse, it would be overwhelming.

And so it's a good thing in those moments to feel numb. But what happens is sometimes we get stuck there and it continues on, and that's where the healing and processing all those traumas, uh, will help you to feel not numb, but alive again. And there's a lot of people that we've worked with. Who've gone to trauma therapy and they've been able to experience that.

I know that was the case for me as well. So I wanna let you comment on yeah, just that anything that I just mentioned. The numbness. There's a numbness that I think is, is good that your body needs to respond to. But there's also a toxic numbness that I dove into of the drugs and the drinking and just shutting it off.

Right. I wanted to just shut it off, shut it down. And I didn't wanna care at all and that, but I will say this. And for those of you out there that maybe don't feel you hear God, or even know if he exists. I don't care how drunk or how high or what I was doing. I still heard that small, still whisper of a voice.

I knew. I knew I didn't need to. I shouldn't be there. I knew what I was doing was wrong. I knew I was damaging myself and I knew no matter what I did, I couldn't shut it up. Like God was hound. God was not gonna leave me there. But I tried my hardest to shut that voice up. And if you listen, no matter what's going on in your life, I don't care where you're at in your life, who you are, where you've been, what you've done, God does not wanna leave you there.

And the lie that kept me there for a very long time was, well, God doesn't really want me because I'm so wounded and I'm broken. And he'll love me when I am perfect. I'm a Saint I'm pristine. That's when God's gonna love me. And I am so far from that, that he's not gonna want me. And so what's the point, right?

And that's, that was the lie that I allowed the evil one to give me because it actually was in. The woundedness, it was in the yuck. It was in the broken and the ugly that Jesus was really wanting to go right there with me. And I didn't want him to go, I didn't want him to see me. I didn't wanna let anyone in because it was so painful and so shameful.

And I didn't want God to see me, even though he saw everything, you know, in and out. Yeah. You still feel like you're hiding somehow in this. Like, you still feel like nobody sees you and that's just, that's another lie. It's ridiculous. He was right there with me, but you have to invite him in and that's the thing.

Your will is everything and it is powerful. And when you willed it for the right things, God can do amazing things in your life. But I shut him out. I didn't want him in there. I didn't want to be seen, I didn't want, I didn't want to expose myself in that state. Right. Hmm. But it was when I let him in there that he was able to break kind of that, that bondage that I had over myself, So good.

And I appreciate you making the distinction between that, you know, regular numbness that we experienced because of trauma and the toxic numbness. I, I know exactly what you're talking about, and that makes a lot of sense. And thanks for sharing all that too. One of the things I realized in my own life is that so many of the mistakes I made, the bad habits I developed, the regretful things that I've done, uh, were just in an attempt to feel wanted.

Yeah. And now I, I realize that and I have that awareness. And so now I can seek out ways of feeling wanted that aren't unhealthy, that aren't bad. And a lot of it, you know, obviously comes from our relationship with God. But I think even that realization that we just wanna be loved, we wanna be wanted, like everything you're telling me in your story.

And I I've heard, you know, you speak and I've heard your story and read a lot of your content. Everything in your story just makes so much sense to me and makes sense. You went down that path and makes sense that you did these things in an attempt to feel loved, to feel, wanted to feel accepted, to, you know, overcome that abandonment that you experienced.

And so it, it just makes sense. And I think God looks at us that way too. He looks at us and he sees the dumb things. We've done the mistakes we've made and he understands. It's not like he's saying, oh, sin is a good thing. He'll never say that. He wants us to, you know, live a good life and get away from those bad habits as sins.

Um, but at the same time, I think he has this incredible understanding of us because he just loves us so much. And he looks at us and says, okay, like I get why you did that. But there's something so much more that I want for you. Yes. And he is constantly pursuing us regardless. And, and we wanna numb, but I'm, I'm have you experienced that Joey, where you are just like outta your mind on something or you, and you still hear that voice, like, you know, you shouldn't be doing this, you know, like this is not right.

Not good for you. A hundred percent. I remember when. Yeah, uh, buddy of mine, I was 11 around the time my parents separated. He introduced me to pornography and like so many people, I, I knew something was wrong with looking at it, but also I was very intrigued. It was, it was beautiful in a way, in a twisted way.

Right. The woman's body was beautiful. And so I felt drawn to it. And so, uh, over time though, I noticed that even though that was a way for me to escape the pain and the problems in my life to numb what I was experiencing, uh, I still felt ETI and even more miserable after going to porn. And I knew just like you're saying that little voice inside me was saying.

You're made for happiness. And I knew even as a boy, even as an 11, 12 year old boy, I knew that I wanted to be happy and this wasn't making me happy and needed to change. Uh, and so I'm sure you can relate with that too, but yeah, absolutely. To answer your question, uh, I certainly relate with that small voice inside of you now, after I had my conversion, God really gave me a grace of not falling back into those sexual sins.

Like something really shifted in me. And I think the power of confession was huge, but a real honest, good confession, right. And a whole hearted confession. And you know, I, some of you will understand this, that I heard an Exorcist tell me that confession is a mini exorcism. Hmm. And you know what, when I look back on my life and I look back on that moment, the shift that took place in me after that, it was so much easier to.

Live out the life I truly did want, and I know God wanted me to leave, but I couldn't do that without his grace. And that was another thing I tried over and over, because we've all had those moments where you do something stupid. I did something really stupid and I'll never do that again. I'll never sleep with them again.

I'll never get that drunk again. I'll never take this drugs again and you promise yourself and you're just really firm in that action, right? yeah, until that weekend or you feel lonely or you have that, that moment of having to be not so numb and actually feel those raw emotions and then you just gravitate back towards it and that's exactly what happened.

And it wasn't until I did it with Jesus. It literally wasn't until I did it with God that I. It did not happen again. And that was the difference that you don't have the strength on your own to overcome these vices. You don't have the strength in your own to come up against these temptations, but with the grace of God, you do.

And that was the only path for me that worked because I tried everything because I hated the way I lived. I didn't like it. I wasn't happy. I knew there was so much more, but I just didn't know how to get out of that rut. And instead living out of the rut, just, I, you it's a humbling experience, but at the same time I needed God to do it.

Yeah. So good can agree more. And I wanna get to your healing story. So what was it that helped you heal? You mentioned hearing that talk in high school. I'm curious in the years that followed, what did your healing process look. So after that, I knew I wanted to help young women like myself, because I never heard that message before that you can start over that you, it doesn't matter who you are, where you've been, what you've done.

And I literally wanted to scream that from the rooftops, especially to my friends and just let them know, look, it doesn't have to be this way. There is a different way. And so I slowly, baby steps had to change my life. And it was really hard because you have kind of both feet in each world, you wanna live this good life and strive towards that purity and that holiness.

And it's a whole new world, but you're still kind of in the world. Right. And that balance, it's like, you become this new person. And it's like, well, what is okay? What's not okay because when you're living out a life of purity and you're really trying to change. it really is a whole mindset. It's a whole lifestyle.

And there, there can not really be a lot of duplicity in that it's kind of one or the other, the light is always gonna be fighting with the darkness. Right. Mm-hmm . And so it was really just slowly getting rid of those friends and the clothes things I listened to. And you know, what was really interesting, Joey is one night I went to a party.

My friends invited me to, I, instead of engaging in everything, I literally sat in a seat and I watched the entire night in front of me, like a movie. I didn't engage in anything. I sat there and my friends were like, come on, come on, have a drink. And I'm like, oh, no later. You know? And I just was like, and I literally kind of prayed, but I watched.

It was like a movie how over time, and as the night went on people and how their standards just dropped and how they acted and what they were doing and how they changed and how I saw two people go behind this door and doing this and doing this and just things they typically wouldn't have done probably, but because they let their guard down and they got into that kind of coping of the drinking and just bad habits.

It's unbelievable how the night transpired. And I thank God, I wasn't engaging in that. And that he opened my eyes to actually see, and it was really eye opening. And if you ever wanna see a situation for it, what it really is, I would encourage people like if you're struggling, like you wanna live a different life, but oh, this one is so much fun and I don't wanna lose all of that, but is it really that much fun because from what I saw that night and what I witnessed, what I thought was so much fun.

It was dangerous and it wasn't good and it was bad. And every morning I remember just waking up, feeling like that. I felt disgusting and not worth it. My friends were like, oh, it's all fun and games. And the thing is you wake up the next day and you don't feel like it's fun and games. Right. You, you it's like you have to like shake off and wash off from the night before almost cause it's not fun and games.

And, and it was just an interesting moment, but I just really wanted to help women from that point on just heal and let them know it was okay. And so I ended up going to, well, my mother sent me of course, to The Bahamas of all places. cause there was a Chasity speaking event and she knew she had to do something extreme to really get me to go rough destination there, Chris.

It was hilarious. And so I was like, sure, mom, I'll go. Why not? You know, who's gonna, who's not gonna do that. So I went to The Bahamas and lo and behold, that's where I met Jason and at, and he was speaking there. And at the time I didn't wanna date anyone. I didn't wanna, I just, I needed my distance. I needed space.

I knew I had a lot going on and I was just fed up with men at that point in my life that I wanted nothing to do with them. So. I talked with Jason and we met, but we ended up just being friends for a good year. And then we slowly started courting and then we ended up getting engaged and we got married and it really wasn't until I think I started having kids that it really started to affect me.

And I started having serious issues. And the lie that I think I fed myself was like, I'm starting this new life, this new chapter, I'm leaving everything behind. And all my baggage is gonna stay outside of the church. And I'm gonna walk down the aisle into this whole new world that I imagine for myself.

Right. And I wanted to be this Martha Stewart mom, this amazing wife and, and all of these things. And I was incredibly ill equipped for any of it. And I really floundered and it was really difficult. And I didn't have that. Martha Stewart mother growing up. Okay. So, and I didn't even have the grandmother growing up to teach me like a lot of young women, because I feel like this there's this whole generation Joey of these women that got left behind these young women that got left behind from the sixties of their mothers, leaving their vocations and going out and becoming these strong business women.

And, and it was like this women power. But in the midst of that, I feel like there were casualties and I was one of them. And I literally didn't get taught how to be a wife, how to be a homemaker, how to have that Catholic essence within your home and, and how to even. A good wife, you know, it was, yeah, it was all kind of this shock for me.

And, and it's something you think that is just gonna like click inside of you because, well, this is what you're doing, so something's just gonna turn on and it never did for me. So I really struggled in just the house and pregnancy, the kids, all of it. I felt like a handicap and I felt so ill-equipped and I felt worthless in my own home.

And I didn't know how to do certain things. And there's a trial and error period, but I think my own brokenness really kicked in and I felt incredibly inadequate in those moments. And so it was really hard. And Jason came from this like, No joke, like leave it to beaver family that it's just like, they didn't understand, you know, there was such this different dynamic because he came from such good seeing such good wholesome relationships.

And here I come from this broken background and then they're colliding together and it clashed. So it was very difficult cuz he's expecting one thing I'm expecting another. And so it's really good to have those conversations, very raw conversations of what does your life day in day out look like after the wedding, after the big honeymoon and you get home.

What does eight to five and five to like 10 look like in your lives? What do they expect of you when you have kids? What is it? Um, they're wanting of you like really get into like nitty gritty of how your spouse or how the person you're dating or engaged to really sees your daily life in and out. Cuz it was very different than what I imagined.

And then also I had the dynamic of being a speaker and going and traveling with Jason constantly around the world with chastity. I mean, there were times where we were home, maybe five days out of a month because we were traveling so much doing this. Wow. And that was a blessing from God. But now we had kids, the whole, my whole world just started to change and it really came to this moment where I had to embrace my vocation as a mom and I had to change, um, my day in and my day out.

And what. God expected of me. And that was really a struggle and that's something I had to pray through because it's very different staying home with children and then also feeling inadequate in staying home and being this homemaker. And you're used to being on stage and helping people and traveling and doing all of these things.

And it was like this huge shift for me. So there were a lot of things at play that happened. And I, I really struggled, but I prayed through that and I knew I needed to be home with my kids. I knew that's what, what God was asking me to do. It was humbling. It was hard, but I knew that that's what needed to happen.

And I thank God every day that I did that, but I still struggle with this anger and just this, oh, I couldn't figure it out. And so I'd go to adoration. I went as far as I possibly could in my own healing process. And then I remember in adoration, God kept telling me, always will bring you back to that same thing.

The next step he wants me to take. And he wanted me to go to counseling. and I, I literally out loud and adoration said, no, I was like, anything but that just, no, I didn't want to go Joey, because in my family growing up, you didn't talk about things and you definitely didn't pay someone to go talk to about your problems, because then that meant you had serious mental and psychological problems.

Hmm. And it was very looked down upon, but now I know why it was looked down upon because they didn't wanna be looked in a bad light yeah. By anyone. Right. You keep up this facade for people. When you're you, you in a broken family and there's just so much going on, they wanna keep the, the pretend game going, right.

The world that you have it all together. And it was just something you didn't do. And God kept telling me to go do that. And it came to the point where I knew it was like, okay, Lord, I, I needed to do this. So it was really intense. And I started going to counseling and. In counseling is when I found out that I had been sexually abused as a child by family members.

And I did not know that I growing up had no I did. And I shoved it down so deep that I, I couldn't even, I couldn't even go there. And it was when again, thank God I went there with God and Jesus though. That's where you have to go to those places with, right, because he's the one that can really deal with those things and give you the strength and the courage to face them.

And that's why my, my women made new ministry even started was because of all of this that you really have to face it. You have to own it, and then you have to heal it. But without facing it and owning what happened to you, there's no way of healing it. And the first two are very scary, but the healing part, it can be done.

And. I will say in that moment that all of that kind of came up. My entire world shattered around me. And I think it was one of the hardest moments of my life, but I feel like I made so much sense to myself for the first time in my life, in that moment, because I understood why I had a hard time giving and receiving love.

Why sexualize my anger growing up, just all this anger and this just frustration, just all that yuck. I was always feeling, I feel like God ripped the bandit off and he showed me the wound and that's where I needed to go. And I'm telling you, I made so much sense to myself for the first time. And then after I went to ground zero, then I really could start building from there, you know, and it was hard, but then the foundation could be put down.

Then the yacht could get cleaned out. Then God could really do what he wanted me to. But if I didn't say yes. To what God was asking me. And so often I was just ignoring it and fighting it and I didn't want it. And I thought I knew better, and I didn't even realize what he wanted to show me. So when we were fighting God, and he is asking us to do something, you really have no idea the trajectory of where your life can go by just giving that yes to God.

Cause he's trying to do great things in you. And he, everything he asks of us, there is a reason for it. And he doesn't just ask us to do anything. There is weight behind it. My goodness, Lina, like, I'm so sorry. There's so much I wanna say I'm so sorry for what you've been through. It's heartbreaking that you were abused and just all the things you went through, but it's so beautiful.

How, you know, you've turned that around with God's grace and it's just amazing. And so inspiring. Like I mentioned, at the top of the show, there's so many people who are in a similar spot as you are, who are listening right now. And, uh, one thing I wanted to say for those of us who come from broken family is we typically struggle more in our relationships and in marriage.

And so if you're feeling like Cina did in your own marriage right now, there's nothing wrong with you. In fact, the research on this topic is very clear. The biggest area of our life that's impacted by the breakdown of our family is our own relationships in marriage. And the basic reason for that, like Chris said, well, is that we don't have a roadmap for.

We've seen a really broken model of love and marriage that gets so deeply ingrained in us almost as if we're programmed to act that same way. And so then when we try to build a relationship, build a marriage, build a family, we feel lost. We're like, I, I don't know how to do this. And that, to me, it sounds like what you went through so much, uh, in your marriage and your family.

And, and it makes so much sense to me. So if anyone out there is feeling that way, if you're going through that, like, there's nothing weird about you. Uh, it makes sense given what you've been through, but there's so much more that lies ahead. If you commit to your healing process, if you face it, you own it.

You heal that. Chris said so well, and that programming can be re you can reprogram yourself too. And that's really what feeling it is all about. And I know for myself, uh, it's just, I've struggled in my own marriage. I've, you know, my wife and I have been open about going to marriage counseling. It's been really helpful and we've made a lot of progress, but especially early on Chris know, for me, it was similar.

It was like, I don't know how to do this. Right? Like the, the model that was set for me with my parents, it was just like horrible, a horrible way of handling conflict. I didn't know how to handle conflict. I was super defensive. I would get really angry, like all this stuff, and I'm still working on some of it, but we've made a lot of progress.

And, uh, so there is hope there's so much hope, but I, I just want people to feel validated in that. Is there anything you would add to that before we move on? I would that if you are experiencing this in your marriage and you are struggling in your marriage, a lot of times you don't want to reveal to your husband or your wife, that weakness or what's going on, and maybe you blame it on other things in the beginning, like what's going on the outside of you.

That's what the devil and that's how the stronghold kind of keeps us, or the wound keeps us and a hold of us is that we don't bring it to the light and we're not expressing and telling people what is actually happening, because we don't want to look like we are struggling or that we don't wanna seem weak, you know, and that we have it together.

But honestly, your spouse, God gave you your spouse to help you to work through this with you. And to be honest about what is happening and tell them, look, I feel inadequate in this, this and this, but just be honest about what's going on and bring it to the light because that leaves no room for the nonsense.

And that's what I found. Just be straight up and honest in all things. And if you can bring up those wounds and things that happen to you and just talk with your spouse, you'll be stronger together. And one thing I will say within your marriages, that outside of marriage, the devil does everything in his power to get you to come together, right?

and, and sleep together and be as close as physically possible. But within marriage, in the sacrament, the devil does everything physically possible to keep you two apart. And wow, you have to guard that because slowly things will get in, in the crack will slowly come in and then it'll get bigger and cause more cracks and more cracks.

And then you don't even realize what happened. So everything that comes in your marriage and in your world, your, your God first marriage is second. And anything that comes. Like crosses that path. You two should be discerning. If it's a job, if it's a new hobby, if it's friends, if it's anything you should be praying about that and your prayer life is going to build your fortress.

And if you're not praying together, you both are, are just it's. You're like free game and you're gonna get picked on constantly and you're gonna struggle and you're gonna have problems. But if you fortify yourselves in prayer and you discern things that come between you, the devil won't have so much wiggle room and control because he operates out of our unhealed wounds.

That's where the devil has power. And for those of you, um, that aren't Catholic, this is what I've experienced in my own life. That that's really where the control lies, but the, the closer you get to God, the more you bring things to the light, the evil one has got to go because he can't stand the light.

He will flee. So the more you put light on something, the, the less harder it will be, and that God's grace will, will abide there for you so much. Good advice there. And one question I heard, um, for any spouses, any spouses listening right now who maybe you suspect that your husband or wife is struggling with something, and you don't know how to go about talking about it.

One great question that I heard from Emily Wilson. She speaks, she's a musician, she's an author. She said, you can ask the question, and this is ideal. They ask obviously before you're engaged, um, or married, but you can do it within marriage two. And she said, you can ask this question. Is there anything that you haven't told me that you're afraid to tell me?

And she says, there's two reasons. That's helpful. One, if the person's gonna divulge something really difficult, they have to kind of overcome two barriers. One, they have to bring up the conversation. And two, they actually have to tell you the thing that can be pretty scary. By asking that question, you're removing the first barrier and then giving them the space to overcome the second barrier.

And so great, uh, little advice from Emily Wilson there. I know we're close to the end of our time together here, Christine, I could talk to you all day for sure, but I wanted to kind of contrast your life. So before the healing process you've laid out what life was like, how broken you were, makes so much sense, but how is life different now that you've gone through this healing?

And I know you would say, you know, you're always a work in progress, but you have experienced, uh, substantial healing. So how is life different now? One as, as you can see, and, and in our conversation, the shame. Is no longer there. And I feel like that really is a gift of God for going through that process, cuz he really does heal you and make you whole and new.

And even when I used to hear those sayings, I used to kind of B him, like, there's just no way, you know, but it really is the truth going through is really the only way, but, but a person that has gone through and made it out on the other side of all of that yuck, um, I can honestly say I'm not ashamed at all.

And I feel like I'm talking about completely different person talking with you today, Joey, it's unbelievable. And that God really wants to do great things. In everybody's life. Like everybody has a purpose. Everybody has a plan and you were created for something incredibly specific. And each one of us is so unique.

And even in the gifts that God has given us, that we need to discover within ourselves, but you can't really discover those things. If you're buried under your, the weight of your own yuck, you know, and the brokenness. But once you get past that, God replaces all of that brokenness. And he fortifies you with beauty and gifts and loves and talents and what it is he truly created you for because he made you for something, but you have to be on that mission.

You have to show up to your own fight. And if you don't show up to your own fight, you're just gonna be where you are standing in front of that Everest mountain of this healing process. And you'll die there and you are made for more than that. And we each are at just a small piece of the massive masterpiece that we're all gonna see in.

Of all of us, we're all just pieces. Right? And a lot of us, it's hard for us to believe that, but it's true. And that's why my women made new. That's why I started the whole women made new ministry is because when I went through my healing process, I needed so much help. I didn't know what the church mother church had to offer, but I know I, I knew it was there and I didn't want women to have to go searching through all these different things in order to get to the good stuff and start a healing process.

So women made knew that if you go to the website, you can find a good counselor. You can find out where to go to Eucharistic adoration, all the different, good Catholic speakers that are out there that can help you all the different, good Catholic resources in one hub, just to start your healing process, right.

Because you're already so wounded and you're going through so much. The last thing you wanna do is research. You know, you just wanna start. It's like, let's just go, it's go time. So you have to get 'em in that moment. And that's what we need to do. And so that's why it started. the women made new ministry and just the face, it own it heal it because that's what we all just need to do.

And it's not easy, but it can be done. And I look back at that moment where I said yes to God. And if I didn't say that, Joey, imagine I wouldn't be sitting here talking with you today. I wouldn't have married. Mason. I wouldn't have my 11 children. I wouldn't have these two unbelievable ministries. God gave me if I just didn't say that.

Yes. And so your decisions right now matter, and as little as you may think it is, it's not, and it holds weight and holds heavenly weight and you have the opportunity to change the course of your entire life. But you have to engage. You have to show up to your own fight. And I know God is calling every single one of you listening.

I don't care your background. I don't care where you've been. I don't care what you've done. None of that because I've been there. And, but God, right now, Is calling you. And I feel like he is inviting you. Whatever's on your heart. Answer it, just do it. Just do whatever that one thing is. Cuz everybody has that one thing.

That's like, oh, I don't wanna do that, but I know I'm supposed to just do it. And you'll see what's on the other side of that. But God is inviting every single one of you. And I tell my kids so they understand on just the small level is that your conscience, that little voice you hear is your compass to heaven.

And as long as you answer and you listen every step of the way, you're gonna be just fine, but just don't ignore it because every time I've ignored it I've regretted it. But every time I've listened, I've never regretted it once in all of my life. And if, if anybody walks. With anything, walk away with that, just listen.

And if I could tell my younger self that that would be the one thing I would say, just listen to that voice. It will guide you. It'll protect you. It'll lead you and you will become who you were created to be just by listening and being obedient period. Excellent advice. Uh, a great resource to help people do everything that you're saying is your brand new book.

It's called women made new reflections on diversity transformation and healing. If you would tell us about it, what's in the book and how will it help the women who read it? What I wanted to do is give women almost. Kind of a spiritual defense plan and to grow in their confidence of who God created them to be.

But we're also, there's so much fear and there's so much woundedness. It's like, you can't just go from a to Z, you know, there's a, B, C, D, and all of these steps. And there's so many new women coming into the church as well and wanting this relationship with God, but they don't know how and. I, I brought 12 powerhouse women together, right?

With that. Each of 'em have a ministry within the church that can help all walks of life of women. And they have each written a chapter in the book. And like for example, uh, Layla Miller, she wrote a chapter on divorce and to help people there. Another one is just like, maybe my chapters and I have three chapters that I actually put in the book and one is like unbroken.

Another one is about spiritual warfare. And another one is really addressing all of the trauma and how I got through that. And I kind of give them like a roadmap of how to heal from that, within that chapter. But one of the most beautiful things out of all of this. Is that mother Angelica is one of the contributors in my book.

And one of the women in my book and E WTN allowed me to use and go through, I spent 300 hours, Joey, no joke, oh my goodness. Listening. We hours of the night doing laundry or cooking dinners or whatever. Always my little earbud, listening to mother Angelica of her earliest shows of these whiteboard shows.

And I was able to pull these old transcripts and go through them. And they allowed me to compile these two unbelievable chapters from mother Angelica that have never been in writing before. And so even her wisdom that is put in here. And even though it was so long ago that she said these things they're so.

In our culture today, right now, with what we're going through. And even one of the chapters about your own personal prison that you actually build for yourself. Mm-hmm and what keeps you there. It's really beautiful. So I just wanted to bring all of these different women, these different ministries. And I wanted to hand women around the world, a book of resources that it doesn't matter what walk of life you come from.

One of these ministries, and one of these women's stories can help you because they're overcomers and we all can be overcomers. And God is calling us to be because we should not be negotiating with our insecurities and we should not be negotiating with our past wounds. We should be going in there and overcoming them, facing them, getting rid of them and marching forward and becoming these strong men and women of God that he's created us to be, to do the things that need to be done in this world right now.

And he's calling all of us, like all hands on deck right now. And I feel like he's got a great plan for everyone. I don't care who you are. So if you feel worthless and unloved, that is a lie from the pit of hell, that that God is calling you. But one thing, people, I think don't realize, and at least with my own personal relationship, Joey, with God, especially God, the father, because I couldn't go to Jesus as a man, I was so wounded by men that I could only handle him in the Eucharist.

So for those of you that have been maybe sexually abused, like I have, and I really struggled with, with God and, and Jesus as a man, I could handle him in the Eucharist and Eucharistic adoration changed my life. It transformed me as a woman and maybe you don't even believe in God, but if you just go sit in a chapel in a church and just say, okay, well, I'm here now, what?

God will show you the now what I promise, you know, mm-hmm, just go and have that courage, but to become incredibly Eucharistic. God has a plan for everyone, but we have to accept that invitation. Amazing. I, I saw that you're giving the first chapter away for free. How can people get that and how can they buy the book?

Uh, if you go to women, made new.org, you can download the first chapter unbroken, and then you can also sign up when the book is coming out, they're taking pre-orders now at EWTN religious catalog and any, any time it could come out and, and get it for sale. But, uh, women made new.org. They can get the first chapter right now.

Beautiful. How can people follow you and get access to your other resources as well? Oh my goodness. Women made new, um, dot com and if you just go to women, made new.org. Everything is there. My Instagram, my radio show, I have, uh, with EWTN every Saturday and, um, all books, resources, website, everything, and women made new really is just women helping women.

I just want people to get the help that they need. And this isn't about competition. This isn't about, um, one upping each other. This really is about helping each other and building each other up and, and healing each other and giving each other what we need to become, who God created us to be and, and men as well.

But my ministry is more geared towards women right now. Amazing. Christina, thank you so much for your time for your story, your vulnerability, your expertise in this area really appreciate you coming on this show, uh, for yeah. Sharing all of that and all the work you've done. I've benefited personally. And I certainly wouldn't be where I am today as a married man with a daughter, if it wasn't for you and Jason.

So thank you so much for, for all that you've done and we'll definitely be here cheering you on and supporting you however we can. I want to give you, uh, the last word and, uh, you kind of gave it already, but just throw it back to you. Any encouragement or advice for any women listening right now who've been abuse or feel broken.

I know you mentioned listening that small voice inside of them, but I wanna give you the last word and just one piece of advice. One piece of encouragement. You're not alone. I felt so alone in what I was going through. And I didn't want anybody to know, because I felt like I was the only one or that carried that kind of shame, or I didn't want anyone to see and just know you are not alone and that you're wanted, you're loved.

And there is a group of women that would love to support you. And then also that God has a great plan and purpose, no matter who you are, where you've been, what you've done, all that matters right now is where you go from here.

So beautiful. I love Christine. I love her story. It's honestly so inspiring to me and really proof that healing and freedom are possible for all of us, even if we don't feel like it is. And on that note, I have a challenge for any of you who find yourself stuck in life, stuck where crystal was in high school.

If you're going to parties and trying to numb your pain with all sorts of things, my challenge for you is this next time you go to a party. Do what she did. Don't drink. Don't do any drugs, just observe, just sit there and observe like Chris Luna did at that party that she went to and ask herself, the question is this the lifestyle I really want?

Is this lifestyle really that attractive? Is it really satisfying me? That's it. That's my challenge for you. If you want Christine's new book, you can go to women, made new.org women made new.org, or just click on the link in the show notes on that page. You could also get the first chapter for free. I read it myself.

It's really good. So I definitely recommend picking that up. And finally, one tactic that you can use to heal is to find a guide, find someone who can guide you in your healing journey. And that's where a counselor, a coach or a spiritual director comes in. And we're building a network of counselors, coaches, and spiritual directors that we trust that we vet that we recommend.

And by using our network, it'll save you a lot of time and effort in searching for a counselor coach or spiritual director. And these people are professionals that we vetted, that we trust that we recommend. And we'll connect you with a trained professional who can give you the help and tools you need.

So you can feel whole again. And if you wanna make use of that, it's really simple. Just three steps. Go to ReSTOR ministry.com/coaching. Again, restored ministry ministry, singular.com/coaching. Just fill out a really quick form and then we'll connect you with a counselor, coach or spiritual director as they become available.

Again, that's restored ministry.com/coaching, or just click on the link in the show notes. Thanks so much for listening. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#077: The Past Sometimes Lives in the Present | Eddy Cervantes

A myth about children of divorce is that the impact of our parents’ divorce is temporary. That’s simply not true, which research proves. Sadly, the effects last long after the divorce itself. 

Our guest today shares how his parents divorce has impacted him, even 20 years later in his own marriage. We discuss:

• How he felt lost when it came to dating and relationships, how breakups felt like a repeat of his parents’ divorce, and how he irrationally fears that his spouse is going to leave one day

• What it’s like to go through a divorce in a Mexican family

• What to do when you’re unsure how to articulate a feeling or experience you’ve endured, especially related to your broken family

• A story on having a difficult conversation with his mom, which offers good lessons for having a difficult conversation with your parents

Get the Book or Free Chapters: It’s Not Your Fault

Meet with Joey for the Investor’s Pitch

Links & Resources

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• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Eddy Cervantes

  • Email: ecervant89@gmail.com

• Episode 22: A Quick and Simple Healing Exercise

• Books

  • Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones | James Clear

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As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

One really popular myth about children of divorce is that the impact of our parents' divorce is temporary. It's short lived. It doesn't really affect us. The problem with that is it's simply not true. And research proves this, especially the research of Dr. Juth. Wallerstein at the university of California at Berkeley.

She studied children of divorce for 25 years and she summarizes all of her findings in her great book called the unexpected legacy of divorce. I definitely recommend checking it out. And what she found is that sadly, the effects from our parents' divorce last long after the divorce itself, my guest today shares how his parents' divorce has affected him.

Even 20 years later in his own marriage. We also discussed how his mom fell out of love and pursued a divorce. He shares what it's like to go through a divorce in a Mexican family, a unique dynamic there, as you'll hear, he talks about how he felt lost when it came to dating in relationships, how breakups felt like a repeat of his parents' divorce and how he, I rationally fear.

That his spouse is going to leave him one day. We offer some advice on what to do when you're unsure, how to articulate a feeling or an experience that you've endured, especially related to your broken family. We talk about how your own healing and growth can inspire your family and even your parents to heal and grow as well.

And he shares a neat story about that. We touch on why healing is almost never immediate. And finally, he shares a story about having a really difficult conversation with his mom, which offers some really great lessons on having a difficult conversation with your parents. Lots of great tips and tactics on healing.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 77. My guest today is Eddie Cervantes as the middle of 13 kids in his family.

Big family, Eddie Cervantes loves being around people and will do anything for family. He graduated from the Colorado school of mines as an engineer. He loves pour over coffee and a good pun. Eddie and his wife McKenna live in Denver with their new baby. So here's my conversation with Eddie,

Eddie. Welcome to the show. Thanks for being here, man. Yeah, thanks for having me. Can you do your radio voice for us? oh, Joe ROS podcast. we're we're replicating the Joe Rogan podcast, Joe Rowan podcast. number one downloaded podcast in the world. There you go. we're next. Never. No, I remember, um, I was, uh, doing this mission trip and believes years ago and randomly, I don't even know how ended up on a radio show.

what and Belize, whoa. Speaking English, but okay. Anyway, it was, it was fun. And I remember I was a college kid at the time and I remember like trying to make my voice look that bad. I was like, so if you wanna do that, feel free. Will do from lighter topics on the heavier ones. Um, you know, I, I know a bit about your story.

Yeah. And. I I'm excited to hear more of it and go deeper. But for everyone listening, who doesn't know your story, how old were you when your parents separated and divorced? Yeah, I was, um, in third grade. So that have been, I think I was eight years old when my parents separated. Yeah. Dang. And what happened?

So I just know bits and pieces of it being eight years old. And it was kind of more like, okay. Diff you know, pulling from what people have said around me, you know, Aunt's brother, sister and all that stuff. It, I think ultimately what, what I, what I told my wife and, you know, before I, before I married, asked her to marry me, she, I told her like, you know, my parents divorce because my mom just fell, ultimately fell outta love.

Of my dad and that's something I remember in particular, just like imagining from the way that, you know, my uncle described it. And so that's it. I think from that point, she just fell outta love because of, I, I, in my mind what it, what it seems to me was I seen projecting what, what, how the, how it ended up to backwards now.

But I think what I projected was like, oh yeah, then we're never, never able to resolve differences. They were never able to reconcile. I don't remember forgiveness. So obviously it could be me projecting backwards right. From how it ended up, but I mean, sure. Yeah. That's that's from what I, I can see. Okay.

Yeah. And one thing we talk about from time to time in the show is that I think legally the most quoted reason for divorce is I reconcilable differences. There's just like a, essentially a constant struggle. Mm-hmm for one reason or another couples thinks they can't get beyond, which is sad. Yeah. So, so that makes a lot of sense.

And I'm curious about like hearing that second hand kind of three people, or kind of beginning a better understanding of that through other people, was your memory of that time kind of blacked out or. Was it more that you just weren't in the loop of what was going on between your parents as an eight year old?

Yeah, I, I think it was more so blacked out. Yeah. I remember just the, what I remember is, um, my mom talking about leaving on the phone to, to a friend and I was in the same room with her and it was kind of, it seemed very casual almost. Um, it was kind of weird thing about it, but, um, yeah, at the time I, I didn't know what's going on and I was like, oh yeah, you know, my mom's leaving.

And then that, then that day came, I remember. Some parts vividly, some parts vague, you know, some parts I Don actually don't remember driving off, you know, it, it, it was, it was like, okay, we're just packing up and, and going when no one else was there. So yeah, my mom took, uh, you know, kinda chose who she wanted to take.

Cause we were, we were a big family, um, sure. At the time I was one of one of nine. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so it was, it was almost like a, a perfect divider, I guess, in how she did it. I don't know why, you know, necessarily, so yeah, it's just, here's what I remember. I keep remembering those, those, those events reoccurred my mind from time to time still.

Sure. So it may, you know, it's just, it doesn't go away I guess. Yeah. So did she take you with her? She did. She did. She took me, my sisters and my, my youngest brother at the time. And so, and everyone else, I think I got pulled outta school because no one else was there at the house when we were packing up and leaving.

Wow. I think. again, this from my old mindset. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, that's, that's what I remember. And it was the middle of the day we packed up stuff and I remember the bird cage that my mom picked up. That's one piece that I remember yeah. Is, I don't know. That was weird is like a bird cage, right? Um, yeah. so all the importance stuff.

Yeah, exactly. It's like, oh yeah, don't forget the birds. Like it's like, it's how meaningless almost, you know, maybe interesting. So yeah. That's, that's how it went down. Okay. Yeah. No, that's interesting. When you heard your mom talking on the phone, what was it like for you? Like what were you thinking? What were you feeling in that moment?

Um, if you remember. Yeah, no, I actually it's actually, after, after that I kept asking her like, so when are we moving? Or, you know, and not in like a question, like, like, why are we moving? But more so like, oh, like, yeah, we're moving. When are we going to move it? Was it just, I didn't understand what was, what she was saying.

Like it got it. Yep. It, I knew. The words, I just didn't know what, what it meant for enough. Um, so the feeling was like kind of excited. Like, oh, we're moving somewhere. We're going somewhere new, you know? Yeah. Like your whole family's moving somewhere. Yeah. Kind of. Yeah. No, it makes sense. How did all that affect you?

How did your parents broken marriage and the divorce affect you in the years that followed? Yeah. Yeah. It affected me. I mean it school, you know, typical things that you kind of hear about like, you know, bad grades in school. I mean, first they were good, but then they, they got really bad. Yeah. Um, in fourth grade.

And then, so I, I just kind of was just in this like kind of a haze almost, you know, I just remember, uh, you know, just not, yeah. It kind of going through the motions, not really feeling happy, not understanding why I wasn't happy. just all around. Like everything just seems kinda like, you know, like, okay, way.

Why, why is my dad, you know, not here or why did my mom decide to do this? That was kinda in the back of my mind. So I felt very, just kinda lonely in that sense. I felt like, I mean, I couldn't, I felt like I couldn't bring it up because, you know, if I brought it up, then, then my, you know, my mom might get triggered something or, you know, with my older siblings.

So it was just something like, it happened. Don't talk about it on my mom's side of, of living with her. And then with my dad, it was more like, I don't wanna say berating, but you know, to the point of like, I don't, you know, your mom, she left us type of thing. So it was, it was like, uh, one side, it was just calm loneliness.

The other side, when I went over to my dad's, it was kind of just a little bit more confusion, a little bit more anger. about it. So yeah. You know, and, and again, like you couldn't talk back, you know, the, the Mexican mentality, right. Is like, your family is like, you don't talk back to your, to your elders, to those who are your parents, especially.

Right. Um, yeah. Yeah. Show respect. So it, it question was, was outta the question. Got it. Right. Yeah. And I mean, that makes so much sense. I was curious about just your, um, Mexican background and mm-hmm, your ancestry there and how that might maybe look different than another nationality and other ethnicity, any insights into that, maybe from what you've heard from other people who come from broken families, how it might be different going through that?

I think, yeah. I think what it was, it's a little bit, we're more passionate people, you know, or so it's like, it's the fire. Once you let a fire, it's hard to, to, uh, pour water on it, I guess. You know, and, you know, in the Bible says, you know, if Jesus, I think, remember reading and I'm paraphrasing besides if you, you know, Love your brother.

So as to pour water on his, on hot colds or something like that, thank you. You know, but, but it was, it was more like Mexican Mexicans are passionate. We, when we were set on something, we're set on it. So it was, it was, it was really hard to, um, to try to, I don't know, be in the fire, so to speak and, and like, not get burned because you always got burned.

Um, in some sense, if you know, metaphorically, so how that's different from maybe like more so American culture is that from what my, my, one of my best friends, he, his parents divorced and it, it was, it was really awkward because it's like, well, I saw 'em in school and then they were talking to each other, like normally like cordially.

And it was like, whoa, that's, that's kind of weird. Like, how is that? Why is that so different than why are theirs? Why is their divorce so different than my parents? And so I think the cultural piece plays in speaks to that where it's like, Oh, no, I'm I, I have this passion inside of me. And so I'm not gonna let it go.

Yeah. We, you know, we keep, we hold on. We're fiercely loyal, but also firstly, unloyal in some sense mm-hmm so combative and combative in that way. And like that person is not the enemy. Yeah, exactly. Okay. They're kind of the enemy. Don't, you know, we don't, don't talk to them type of thing, but it's. I have to cause I, I live with my mom, so we, we would switch every weekend to go with my dad's, um, and stay there for the weekend.

For the whole week or the weekend. Oh, the weekend. The weekend weekend. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then the summer we'd do half and half. So half the summer would be with my mom, half would be with my dad on staying continuously or like, was it a split in the middle or would you go back and forth like week after we, yeah, it was continuous.

So like from the end of school, I, I think I'd stayed with my mom through like middle summer. And then once that middle summer hit, my dad came up and picked us up and we stayed until right before school started at my dad's house. Yeah. Okay. So interesting. Mm-hmm yeah. Okay. No, thanks for speaking to that.

Italians are pretty similar. So coming from an Italian family, like lots of passion. Oh yeah. And so this, this idea of like, yeah, never talking about it. It's definitely. Kind of foreign to me, but I've come to understand that more from people, you know, we've worked with who restored that there's can be that like real silence about it.

And even in passionate families, it's like we might fight about, or have conflict about certain things, but then other things are still off limits. Like, like you said, so it can be an interesting dynamic. It's kind of strange in some ways, but I, I totally get where you're coming from. Yeah, definitely. So anything else you would add about kind of yeah.

How it affected you, how you, you know, dealt with all of the, that trauma over the years? Yeah. Over the years. I I can get into from like then to, I mean, high school, middle school is, I mean, middle school is awkward anyways, I guess. And so , so it's like, okay, you know, we're in middle school, when's high school coming and then high school came.

Right. And so it was, it continued on through middle school. Um, the, the, the same thing over and over again, the fighting the arguing. Um, don't talk back. I can't question this. And then high school came and it was okay. Now I'm old enough. I feel like to talk back and to question things and to get argumentative and.

You know, so it, it, it was like a, a split within a split. So a split between my parents and like, I kind of split off from them. For me, it was, I'd try to defend my mom and my dad's. And I tried to defend my dad and my moms try to keep the peace. You know, I was that, you know, if you're into a family systems, I was that peacekeeper, um, type of thing that bridge between them two.

And because I was, my sisters never really went over to my, my dad's house. Um, it was just the, the boys. I didn't make that clear earlier, but it was just me and my younger brother who would switch. Um, okay. Did your sisters not want to, or was there something else at play? They were older, so that above the age of 18.

So they buy court order. They were, they were not into, you know, they, they could do whatever they want. Um, And so high school, I was more kind of be being the peacekeeper, creating that bridge. And then a lot of things changed in college. I think in college, you know, I, my parents realized that I was becoming an adult and moving on and, and continuing on.

And, and between high school oncology, you start to gain an interest in, in the ladies. Right? Sure. So, you know, and you're like, oh, you know, that's that girl's really cute or, wow. That girl's funny. And so you get gain an interest and it's, for me, it felt like it felt awkward. Like dating was an awkward thing to me because my parents were divorced.

It wasn't, it wasn't normal for me, you know, it's like, okay, how does this work? It, it doesn't make sense. I don't even know what you would do. How would you talk to someone until like, Hey, I, I like you. I wanna date you. Um, mm-hmm so it. Do I just copy the movies you do. I just, you know, I think that's the closest thing, you know, to like somewhat of an intact that, right?

Yeah, exactly. Like Titanic, right? Oh my gosh. So romantic. Wow. You know, and, uh, you know, apart from like, obviously the, this scenes that you're not supposed to look at, but it was like, wow, this is what Love's supposed to, like, you're supposed to have, you know, charming and all that stuff. And sure. So it, it really, it really affected me in how to have a relationship with the opposite sex and also.

It's, it was awkward talking to my friends about it too, because my friends had their parents were together. So I felt like the weird friend who had parents were divorced and, you know, it's kind of a shame, a shame of it, right? Yeah. Um, there's a shame and, uh, that's how I felt. It's I kinda, you know, and then parents got brought up in a conversation.

I kind of just, you know, got a little bit red in the face. Um, and thankfully I'm Mexican, so the red doesn't show that much, you know, so, yeah, so it was like, okay, I'm blushing, but it's like, oh, I'm embarrassed. But you know, um, I don't think anybody can tell. I hope. And so. There's that them, you know, the shame be feeling ashamed and in college.

Yeah. It, it it's changed in the sense that, you know, I felt like my parents orbit of authority was not there anymore. So I felt like this immense sense of freedom of, wow, I'm, I'm free from the dysfunction of my family. I'm free from the dysfunction of having to be that the, I mean, still be the peacekeeper, but not like that's not my responsibility, not my responsibility to get through college and to, you know, move forward.

And I think one thing that my parents had in common that I think they saw eye to eye, but really didn't talk about it was, you know, makes something of yourself. Um, my parents are immigrants from Mexico, so their dream, you know, the American dream, right. Yeah. Is to have your kids grow up, go to college, you know, have a career be successful in that way.

That, that was like a common strain, which was, which was good to see, you know, in, in that I think coming from a divorced family that can, for me, that really pushed me into like, oh, this is the thing I can cling on. I can cling onto being a good student. I could clinging onto getting the good grades and, and feeling on accomplished and feeling the, the feeling of, oh man, people are looking at me.

I think coming from a big family, you're just kind of striving for that attention. Right. Having good grades and being successful was one way of getting that attention from family, from friends. And so I worked, I worked my butt off, you know, and apart from obviously like, yeah, you're paying a lot for college, so you better, you better get the grades.

Yeah. Yeah. So it's so interesting. Yeah, no, it is such a good thing to work hard and to succeed. That's not a bad thing, but I agree. I think that we can maybe place too much of our. in our accomplishments, especially as men, I think we have that tendency, but mm-hmm, coming from a broken family. I've noticed that in people too, it's like, well, I don't find my worth in my value from my parents or from my family, or maybe even from God.

So I'm just gonna find it in sports or how much money I can make or how successful I can be in school or business, or, you know, whatever, like CrossFit or right. Anything like fill in the blank. You kind of look to that as you're defining characteristic as the thing that gives you worth, it gives you value.

Yeah. It's sad because the danger obviously with that is if that were to be taken away or maybe change in some way, then it can be really difficult to come to terms with like, oh, well, I don't really know who I am now, so I totally get that. And I, to this day, I've gotten better at it, but to this. Um, my dad was very much so he was very hard worker mm-hmm I admire that about him a ton.

We all got that characteristic, which I, I definitely appreciate. Yeah. Yeah. It's sad to me kind of seeing how, uh, people in his generation, I don't wanna single him out. My mom's similar in a lot of ways. How they, you know, really clung onto their work as like their meaning in life. And I, yeah, I think there's smarter life than just that.

Yeah, exactly. A struggle. And I think that also plays into the Mexican culture of like your worth is how hard you work. And it's kind of paradoxical because yeah. Mexicans are, you know, we're very much about faith family, you know, and working hard and, or some people play like faith, family, and soccer, but sometimes soccer comes first.

Right. That before family . So nice. Yeah. So it's, it's like, there's that passion again, and working hard was like, again, that's the thing I onto. And that's the thing that I got from my, from my dad, um, as well. And let me, sorry. I'm trying to think where I was going with that actually. Um, working hard is.

That's where I got the attention again. Mexican and culture. Come back to attention. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. So mix, you know, Mexican cultures work hard and people appreciate that. They see the value in that and yes, it is valuable to work and to have be good at what you do. It almost became a little bit too much because it's like, Okay.

All we do is work, you know, when is it? So for me it felt growing up like, oh man, I go to my dad's house and I work and I come to my mom's house and I kind of relax, but there's like work in emotional work and trying to like, okay, don't try to argue with my mom. Or, you know, don't try to like trigger her.

Yeah. So it was work. It was work, definitely a lot of work and, and then college was totally free. So. Okay. No, that makes sense. Yeah. It's, it's so interesting how that could be a way of coping. Just, I mean, that's basically all we're saying now. And I remember in college. Yeah. Just those of who listened to the podcast, you know, that my parents separated and they were apart for a while.

And then they actually got back together, which was good. It was, their marriage was still broken. There was definitely dysfunction and struggles at home, but it was better that they were, um, together, but then later they got divorced. And so the time I was in college, It actually was away for my first semester mm-hmm and things were definitely rough before that and, you know, over the summers and stuff.

But, uh, my first semester at college, I got a call that my parents were getting divorced. It was like, I kinda lost touch with home a little bit being my first semester away. Mm-hmm and, um, that was definitely difficult to swallow. And I remember, I think the next day I had like an accounting test and, um, so it was like kind of difficult to study, but at the same time, I just buried myself in it and school became a way to yeah.

Just kind of cope. And, uh, I think I not, I'm not boasting Benny means here. I think I like aced the test, which to me, like after I got the score back, I'm like, that's really weird. Like you just got really heavy news and you just like did really well in this test, like better than maybe I normally would do.

Right. So, um, so anyway, it definitely was kind of insightful for me to see like, okay, this is like one of the ways that I cope. It's just good to know moving forward. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, going to, for those of you, you know, mine, mines is definitely. Get in your books and dig in and you know, it's nonstop.

And I just loved it. I loved it because, you know, homework, didn't talk back to me, guess what homework didn't test. Didn't, you know, didn't obviously it told you your faults, you know, but it wasn't like a verbal, you know, emotional type of thing. So I was like, this is like, perfect. You know, just work hard, keep working, you know, the more hours you put it.

Oh man. I'm working hard. Okay. I get better grades. So the input I get is equal to almost the output in some sense. Yeah, totally. So, yeah. I, I just, I was just engulfed in it and just everything, everything around college was just, I loved, you know, I loved being around people and my age and not have to worry about going home.

Right. Yeah. So, yeah, it was great. Yeah. No, I, I hear you. It's tough. You know, it's yeah. It, it's definitely not easy to deal with like the trauma, the dysfunction. And so if we can find escapes. Then we, we usually take them. Yep. You know, the, some are definitely unhealthy than others, but I think that one certainly can turn into an unhealthy thing and I, I know mine did, but at the same time, there are worse ways of coping

Yeah. So, uh, I think that's important to say, but, um, one of the, one last thing I was gonna say on that is one of the counselors to whom we refer people are restored. I was talking to her once and she said that school was like a vacation from the emotional side of her brain. Mm. So it was almost like she didn't need to, you know, deal with all those heavy feelings.

It was like, oh, I can just use my mind, like the more logical, functional side of my brain that just focus on like solving problems or learning and, and, uh, so it can certainly be yeah, just a way of coping, right? Yeah, definitely. That's a great way to put it was a vacation for, for that part. And you know, another way that I coped was.

Yeah, just getting praised from friends too. Once when, if I didn't get praised for my family, I try to get praised from friends and try to do the best that I can and trying to be a leader. And so it's, it was, um, it was, it was definitely some, uh, a good experience, but another part of it too, with the coping that I had to do besides that was one of 'em was like partying a little bit.

Sure. And so going to there and just hanging out with more friends, you know, this fun. Cool. Yeah, that totally makes sense. So turning to relationships, which definitely are a lot more difficult in my opinion than school . Yep. How, uh, how did you see your parents' divorce? Their broken marriage affect your dating relationships and your now.

My dating dealerships weren't much at all. there were short births, more like fireworks that burnt out after you'd gotten, you know, somewhat in there. It was, it was just very short lived again. I, I, I think carrying it on from high school was like, I, I didn't know what I was doing. Um, obviously didn't have the end in mind.

Right. It was more so I'm just having fun trying to date. And yeah, there were certain times when I was like, okay, I wanna be serious potentially, you know, and find a spouse. But at the end of the day, it was more like my heart wasn't completely in it to take it to the, you know, to see the, the seriousness of dating and going into marriage.

And yeah, I, I remember just every breakup, almost every breakup that I had, it was, it was kinda. , it was very heart wrenching. You know, even though we were dating for a few weeks, you know, or a week or a month, it was like, wow, this really hurts. And, um, that, that, that was a great brokenness that I realized that, wow, like I'm very affected by this and I don't know what to do about it.

And it was weird because it's like, well, wait, we didn't get in that deep. And maybe I just went in too much. And you know, maybe I tried to love this person in a very romantic way, but they weren't reciprocate in the same level. Um, yeah. So it was just, yeah. Kind of hurtful in the end. Yeah. No, that totally makes sense.

I always had a very fair sense of loyalty to the girls. I dated yes. To the point where it was like really difficult for me to break up in fact. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, any relationship that got off the ground for me that ended was not initiated by me. Like it wasn't ended by me, I should say. There were some relationships where from the outset, I was like, no, I, you know, I'm not gonna get into this, but the ones that did get serious.

Yeah. I, I almost felt like it was a divorce. Yeah, exactly. Like it felt like it was almost repeating what I saw in my parents' marriage. And so I felt that heaviness too. And I don't think that's strange for people like us. I think that's pretty common. Mm-hmm um, for different reasons, obviously there's the trauma side in your brain, like recognizes this as like similar to that.

And so you feel those emotions as that memory is triggered, but on the other side, yeah, we do. I think we do take marriage and relationships more seriously. And so when they do fall apart, it's not like this small thing, little deal. It's like, okay, this, this starts this as serious. Right? Exactly. Yeah. It, it was, you know, and, and they would last too.

It that's the thing I realized it would last. And going back to that loyalty, you it's like, oh no, maybe I can get 'em back. You know, maybe I could put 'em back. Right. Sure. And, uh, Laughing about it now. Um, but like Eddie, you were, you were that good of a guy back the man yourself, go back in time and like slap yourself.

Right, exactly. A do. Yeah, there you go. Right now it's a Chevy volt, but yeah. so yeah, it was, yeah. It's nice to get, gets good gas mileage, but yeah, it was, it lasted. And after, after those things would break up, I, I try to like think ways of when I'm back or try to like good my lines and try to like work harder and, and work, you know?

Okay. It's like, okay, I'm gonna use this as motivation to be more successful because I equated in my mind. was okay. The more successful you are, the more likely chance of you being in a relationship, right. Mm-hmm the more likely chance of you keeping a girl, keeping a girl. Yeah. Wow. So, and, and that also stems from, I listen to, I listen to just the, the music that I listen to is just romantic.

And obviously Mexican, the Latin blood is like very romantic, right? Oh. You know, LA mariachi and Goya and all that stuff SAA. And so it was, that's awesome. It just fed into that. , you know, as good as it is, it fed into that too. And, and it develops the brokenness a little bit more. So. Yeah. No, no. I could see that.

And I think that's that way in a lot of places around the world, just the, yeah. You can certainly, um, attract people to more, if you have money or if you have some sort of success, it can be very attractive. So I don't think that's unusual at all. Let's get to marriage. If you would. How, how have you seen all this play out in your marriage?

Like how have you. The trauma from your family and just the ways in which that affected you, then kind of snowball into your own marriage. What sort of, as much as you're comfortable sharing, what sort of struggles, uh, have you dealt with there that you would largely attribute to that? I think how it affect my marriage is that I think the past sometimes lives in the present.

And that's to say that the way that I see my wife is kind of similar to how I see my mom, if that makes sense. A hundred percent. Yeah. And, and my, my wife told me not to embarrass her. So I've smiled yeah, no, no. Cut you soon. Yeah. You have an amazing woman. Like she's awesome. Appreciate that. And, and she, and so I see her and I'm like, oh, you know, it it's, how do I put this when she does things?

It, it, it triggers things in, in my, myself that that brings me back to like, oh, my mom is trying to. My mom did this similarly. So she's trying to like hurt me in some way. And I bring that to the present and I see that, you know, my wife is like, oh, she's trying to hurt me, but that's not her intention. So sure that lives currently now.

And that's how that's affected our marriage in that way. And the another side of it too, is sometimes, you know, we get disconnected and again, like she says something that I think she's trying to hurt me in my mind, but I know, you know, conscious, like I know she's not trying to make me angry and I, sometimes I'm not, not actually present to her needs at certain times.

So I kind of just either forget or, you know, it's, it's, it's a, it's a miscommunication. It's like, oh, I didn't know that this is what you meant. And a misinterpretation, maybe misinterpretation. Yeah. Yeah, totally. And with, yeah, miscommunications is right too, but everything you're saying makes me think of misinterpretation, cuz I do that a lot with my wife too.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I like, you know, it's like, oh she's like, no, no I didn't mean to, I didn't mean it that way. It's like, oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so it's, it's that wasn't an insult. That was actually right. You just expressing myself or something. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think too, the ways that it's affected is, is culturally too.

You know, my, my wife is not Mexican, so there's, but she speaks Spanish, but she speaks Spanish better than I can. Yeah. oh really? Wow. Wow. Way better than I can actually. Wow. Wow. That's so interesting. So it it's, it's great. But then sometimes she's like, no, no, Eddie. That's not how you say you say like this and it's like, okay, you're a white girl.

yeah, exactly.

that's awesome. It's so I'm like

what did you say to me? No. Um, so it there's, there's a cultural thing too of, oh, like she doesn't get, like, this is how I speak, you know, it's like, when I'm very passionate, like, you know, passion, the, the passion comes out and it's like, you get louder and louder and louder. And then it's like, it's like, wait, are you, are you, why are you angry?

It's like, oh no, no, that's just, I'm not angry. That's just, just how I talk, you know, it's just how we talk. Right. And to my family, it's normal. But to her, it. Why are you, why are you pissed off? I'm like, oh no, I'm not. Yeah. , just passionate. I'm really passionate about this. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's a little bit of a struggle of like, oh man.

Just like, feel, can you feel the passion when you know that I have, you know? And she's like, no, no, I know what's her nationality. Yeah. What's that? What's her nationality. Um, American, but she's like her, her background is English. Sorry. Ethnicity. Yeah. Ethnicity. Yeah. English. English. Okay. Yep. So yeah. Very different.

very different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I, you know, it's, the, the jokes are different. The way we express things are different. The, the brokenness that I, that I have is like the constant, I think the way it say it's like constant fear of, oh man, did I really mess this up? Did I really break this relationship?

Did, did I do something that would, is this the final straw for you? Mm yeah. Is this the final straw is, you know, when are you gonna break? When, when are you gonna be done with me? When are you gonna. is this too much for you? Am I too much to handle at this point? And so that has played into a lot of our, our arguments and also in a, in a very, very real way.

Like I realized, I realized like her, her unbroken ness of how, like she has a good family, her parents are together and it's like, yeah, I, I was like, oh wow. Like, I can kind of see how far away from the cross that I am, you know, like how unperfect that can be, you know? And, and so it's, uh, me too. It's it's like, whoa, crap.

I'm, I'm really outta my game here. I'm at I'm outta my element. Like, I, I don't know if I could level with, I can be, you know, am I even on the same level as you, because you're more compassionate, I'm less compassionate. You're more loving. I'm, I'm kind of less loving, you know, and so sure. I see the virtues that she has and the, the lack of virtues that I have.

Well, yeah, no, I totally see that in my nurse too. And especially when I'm at my worst, it's like, man, yeah. I just don't feel worthy in a lot of ways. Yeah. And yeah, it's, it's really, it's tough because like you said, that fear, which I think all of us feel who come from broken families is like, well, when's my marriage gonna fall apart.

And when's my divorce gonna happen. Almost feels inevitable. Even if we can't put it into words, a lot of people can't, mm-hmm, like, you're very articulate about your story, but a lot of people, you know, maybe haven't put it into words like this yet that they can, but it takes time. And, um, yeah, I think a lot of us feel that it's like, oh, it it's almost like this is inevitable.

Like eventually my spouse will leave me. They'll see that I'm not as good as maybe they thought I was, they'll see the real broken me, like all my struggles that I don't show everyone else. they're gonna see that and they're gonna be gone. Exactly. Yeah. Terrifying. It is very terrifying. It's it's, uh, it's almost like death, you know, it's like the fear of death.

Right. Feel fear of dying if, if I could put it that way. And I, I, one thing I would like to say too, is that yeah. Yeah. It took me. I thank you for, you know, saying that I'm, I, I don't feel like I am articulate, but maybe I just talk a lot, but you know, or repeat myself, the Mexican thing is we repeat ourselves.

There you go. um, and so. I, it took me a while to articulate what was going on, because I didn't know what was going, what these feelings were. It's like, how do I, how do I, how can I put these? How can I put words to these tears that I'm feeling, you know, and these tears that I'm running down my face. I don't know.

I don't know what the words are. I don't know which the right words. And it took me a while to, you know, I'm definitely not perfect, but it's, it's getting better at that. Yeah. And one tip for everyone listening. If you feel yourself in a similar situation, cuz I've been there too. I like the same. Uh, you kind of need to sit with certain struggles or feelings for a bit before you're able to.

Figure them out or articulate them. And I think that's kind of frustrating in our world because we live in a very instant gratification culture where we're like, we see a problem. We wanna buy something on Amazon to solve that problem and be done with it. Um, that's not the way that it works with your emotions and relationships, so it can be difficult, but I I've definitely, that's one of the tactics.

I think that's been really helpful for me, which has even been healing in a lot of ways. It's just, okay. When those uncomfortable emotions, when those things I can't even put into words happen, I just need to sit with it for a while. Mm-hmm and that could be really uncomfortable, but if there's a way to be, get comfortable with the uncomfortableness and that's been really helpful for me and maybe kind of detach yourself a little bit and not act from that place, which can be really hard, especially if emotions are high.

Exactly. But if you're able to do that, um, in time, what I've seen is that you will be able to put it into words and get more of a grasp on it. Even if it doesn't happen right away. Anything to add to that? Yeah. I definitely definitely agree with all that. Um, it takes a while and it takes patience with yourself to not act on those.

I know I've acted on it through pornography, you know? Yeah. As another coping mechanism, I've acted on it through music, you know, just all the music that I can listen to. That that makes me feel better about my situation. And mm-hmm or even just talking back, you know, talking back to my parents, you know, and even though it's UN obviously unwarranted at times, so yeah.

That's um, having that, that patience to know that it, it does come, you, you know, being able to know what you're feeling does come and it's hard. Yeah. It's hard. Yeah, no, it is. For sure. Going back to, um, one thing you said is just how the past, sometimes live in the pre lives in the present. That's just so insightful.

So good. And couldn't agree with that more. And I've struggled with that in my own marriage as well. I wanna shift gears a little bit to healing. So we are a couple things, a few things. That you found helpful in coping and healing with everything that happened in your family? For me, it was in college. I had a reversion back to the Catholic faith.

Faith did not play a big role. And, um, I know some people were listening or not have faith and, or, you know, not Christian, but I think that's something that, that does a mechanism for me. And that really just kind of kickstarted my whole heal healing process and had surrounded myself with good friends. Um, I think that was, uh, my on, uh, definitely necessary for the pathway to create that pathway.

Two healing, surrounded myself as good friends. I had good friends in high school that were, had my back and I'm very grateful and we're still friends til today and I'm very grateful for them. And, uh, in, in, in college it's hard cuz we did not go all, we didn't all go to the same college. Right. So sure. Um, yeah.

So surrounding yourself with good friends that are there was really, really helpful and I'd say so that good friends. For me, faith, faith was a big part of it. And then also just actually trying to, how do I put it, trying to work on myself, you know, and realize, I think realizing was my brokenness was a big part of my healing is realizing that I am broken and that it is possible to be healed.

That was like huge for me to, to realize that it's possible too, to get out of this rut. It takes some convincing. It's not always immediately apparent to a lot of people cuz we, we definitely doubt that you know, our situation in life or the way that we feel or whatever we're struggling with. We're kind of stuck in mm-hmm we can feel that.

So that's like as minor as it might seem to certain people it's like, that's huge. Just even the belief that no, I can change. I can grow. I can heal. I can. Be a better person tomorrow than I am today. I can build a better life than maybe the life that I came from. And, and that's revolutionary for a lot of people, even if they're not totally conscious of that, that's a real struggle of just feeling stuck and feeling like a victim constantly and just never believing that it's even possible to rise up from them.

Yeah. And, and I'd say that part. And also another thing that helped me with my healing is seeing my parents heal and what, and here's what I mean by that is like after college, I, I, I made an effort to really, to recognize that yes, it can be healed and to act on it and. Though it's not guaranteed. Uh, I knew it wasn't guaranteed, but I gotta give it a shot to, to try to heal and to try to try things out, you know?

And one of 'em, I I'll give you a couple examples, two examples that were really huge for me. My mom, I remember my mom called me, you know, just upset and you know, and she had to the point where I, I, I got tired of my mom called me every time my mom called me. It was like, oh man, like, what does she want now?

Crap. What happened to who? I mean, who's doing what? And, um, yeah, so it was, it was hard to, to answer that phone call. Um, it was really hard and, but out of love and out of maybe out of muscle memory, I up, you know, my phone rings, so got okay. Yeah. Who green, you know? And so it was. It was that in my, my mom's, you know, I think I got, I got the end of it and I was like, you know, my mom, I, it's just really hard for me to, to talk to you sometimes because of all the things that happened.

And then she told me something that really hit me hard was like, well, I'll never call you again then. And I was like, oh, and that dropped me to my knees. I thought, I thought I was gonna be okay with her just saying, okay, then I won't call you. But then when I heard it from her words come from her mouth, I dropped my knees and I felt so bad.

I felt, wow. I felt like cry. And I did cry. And I was like, oh shoot. That's I'm actually not okay with that. Yeah. So from that point, I made an effort to, to, to work on that relationship with my mom. And it got to the point where she said, Hey, you know, we're having a big conversation again. And uh, she said, please forgive me for everything that, that I've done.

So that was huge for her, you know, and, uh, to step forward that way I admire that while. Yeah. And, and years passed and I was like, hold on. Okay. I, I got back to, cause it takes me a while to. To, to internalize everything. It takes me long. My wife will tell you, it's like, oh, you take forever to just think about things, move, move on.

You know, another part of the brokenness, you know? And yeah. And so I, I, I made a point and I said, okay, I'm gonna go to my mom's house. I'm gonna drive up. And I need to, I need to know exactly what she's asking for forgiveness for, because it's not very clear to me. So I sat her down and my sister was like, Hey, I need you here as a witness because I can get passionate.

And my Spanish isn't that good as my wife knows. And so I need you to interpret if you need, if you need, uh, if you can please. And sure. Wow. Uh, she said, okay, and this is my older sister. And, and luckily she was home from, um, Mexico, just visiting. And I said, mom, no, you call me on this day. And you said, please forgive me, forgive anything, but I need you to, I need to know exactly what you need for forgiveness for specifically.

So either way I know what I'm forgiven you for because that's too vague for me. And she said, okay, well, I forgive you for this, please forgive me or sorry, please forgive me for this. And I said, okay, mom, I forgive for that. What's next? I said, okay, I please forgive me for this. You know, but forgive me for out times that I've hurt you.

And the times that I've, you know, wasn't a good parent. Okay. I forgive you for that. Please forgive me for, um, not meeting your needs. Okay. I forgive you for that. You know, so that was like huge. And I saw from that she, she was healing from that point. So that was good for me to see her healing, because then I said, I think I'm moving forward on something here.

And then the second story I would say is, um, that's huge is Krishan had this thing called rise and mm-hmm, where, you know, you kind of, it's like a manly thing where you try to do things that are like, you know, manly, like in one of 'em, one of the tasks was okay, write a letter to your dad about why, what you're grateful for.

And I, and I sat on that. I was like, well, I started writing letter. I'm like, well, I could write it like and say, yeah, dad, you're good at this, but you really sucked at this. Mm. You know, and, or, Hey dad, you really, you're great at this. You sucked at this, you know, and continued that on in that letter. But then I was like, you know what?

This is. This has to be a letter of why I'm grateful for. And, and I wrote that letter in Spanish and I forgot to give it to him until the one day that I remembered is actually his birthday. And I was like, oh, Hey dad, I got some for you. Cause he was in my car. Meaning to give it to him. He's in the, he is in the, uh, the console.

So my there grabbed it. He was my dad, my stepmom, my one of my younger brothers and my dad read it out loud in Spanish. And I had, did use Google translate on a couple of words. so he read it out loud and he, and he said, wow, this is,

he said, wow, this is one of the best letter. This one, this is the best P I've ever gotten. And then he said, take your time here. Yeah. After, after he read it, he said, you know, son,

I've never told your grandpa that grandfather, that I loved that I love him. Never. I've never told that. and then he said, and this is like the kick who he said, but today I will call him and tell him that I love him. And I was like, wow, I never knew that my dad and my grandpas, I feel like they're very close, but my dad's also from that generation of stern, but loving, right.

Don't really show much, uh, motion to your, to your kids. And mm-hmm . And so that, that was huge. Ever since that day, I think my dad started, you know, healing. He started going back to church as Mexican, you know, big, big, you know, SOGE Catholics, you know, and yeah. And so he, he went back and started his own healing journey too.

And, you know, and then I, I see that change now and that, that his healing, again, caused kind of further resonated with me and, and held me to heal even more and, and get me to the place where I'm like, okay, it's not perfect, but. But today it's good. And so that was, that was the thing that, that really just propelled me into, into that.

Okay. I feel the love of my parents. Again. I, you know, I tell 'em that I love 'em and I think that's probably one of the best gift I give 'em to my dad is just to, to forgive him. And, and same with my mom too, is to feel 'em like, Hey, you know? Yeah. I, I forgive you. So that, that was huge. Yeah. Wow man. So moving it just like gives me the chills and I get why you're so emotional talking about it.

It's definitely heavy stuff and really beautiful stuff. And the lesson I take away from what you're telling all of us is that your own healing, your own growth can have this effect on your family, where they then pursue their own. Which in turn can help you heal even more. Yeah. Which is really beautiful.

Yeah. And, uh, I think something super encouraging, cuz a lot of times we feel like there's nothing good that we can do with this thing in our life, our broken family, that's just so messed up or so dysfunctional. It's like, what do I even do with this? We often just run from it. Mm-hmm um, so I think it's just so inspiring and beautiful that.

you know, in whatever amount of control you have, you're helping to change that, to heal that, to transform that, which has just meant so much, uh, admiration to you for that. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's, you know, it wasn't anything big. It was just something small that I I could do as, as you said, is what's what could I do that, that is from me, from generally from me that I could give yeah.

Give to them. Yeah. So good. Obviously, you know, you're still working on your own growth as we all are. Um, and you're always healing in additional ways, but how is your life different now that you've at least been on this path, uh, of healing and growth compared to how it was before? Yeah. It's, it's different now.

Yeah. Obviously definitely work progress. My, my wife will see that she. Just remember your rookie progress. yeah. no, no, we, we actually only bring people on who are like, perfect. So, oh, shoot. You're you're actually not supposed to be here. Yeah. What's let me pull out this mask. no, it's it's uh, it's definitely.

Yeah, definitely. My wife's helping me grow. Definitely. For sure. She's helping me grow in, in, in, in compassionate, in love and patience. So it's, it's really great to have her to be married to her. I'm very blessed in that way and it's different now because I can see a way forward. I can see like, oh yeah, I can be patient.

I can just be a little bit more patient. Yeah. Not the perfect amount of patients, but I can just be a little bit more patient. Okay. Today I can be a little bit more loving, not big steps, obviously nothing grand, grand spectacular, you know, fireworks, you know, and, but just little things that I'm, I'm growing in.

And, um, and it's, it's allowed me to see like, okay, I can, I can do this. I I've done this before. You know, I've I can, I can be a little more patient. I can love more. I can be more patient with my own family. And it's, it's, it's, uh, it's very hopeful, I guess. Yeah. That's something I lacked a lot of is hope.

Got it. And now you feel now I feel hopeful. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I could like see it in your face. That's awesome, man. So good. Yeah. And yeah, it's hard to describe like the misery and like the despair beforehand. I've been there too. Yeah, it's horrible. Yes. It's the worst. Yep. So when you contrast hope with that, it's like, oh my.

Like it's just night and day. And it's just so, so much better. I was about to just say that it's night and day. Yeah, yeah. And, uh, da Notcha, you know, and so it it's been, it's been good. And, and also I'd say another thing too, is it's different in the sense that you, I can actually talk, you know, my wife and I can talk, sit down and actually have a, a cordial conversation and just say, okay, here's, here's what annoyed me this week and okay.

How, you know, here's, here's why, here's why that made me feel this way. And I, and she gets to know me a little bit better and love me a little bit more because she sees like, oh, it's not me. It's actually something that happened in the past. That's affecting you now. Okay. I can see that now. It's not, it's not me necessarily.

It's just, this is what, what comes up for you. And she can see the same way too and say like, yeah, you know, when you do this, you reminding me of this, you know, and how I was starting to pass in the same way, um, similar way. So that's been, that's been great, you know, and not, not taking that. Outside into, you know, what I used to do is like gossip, right.

And like, sure. Oh. Especially in big family, it's like, oh, you know, sister. So, and so did this like, oh my gosh, can you imagine that? Whoa. You know, so, or like, you know, oh man, like tell me more about that. And so, yeah, I think keeping being able to keep it within our marriage in between my wife and I has been beautiful as there's a saying in, in, in Spanish that says, goes like this LA Paia se limpian dirty clothes are washed at home.

Hmm. Not anywhere else. They're washed dirty clothes are washed at home and that's where you wash your clothes. Hmm. If your clothes are dirty wash at home, So that's been, that's been very helpful for me. Yeah. Again, not nothing spectacular or big, but just little things every week. Yeah. Every week. Yeah.

Yeah. If you continue. Um, I just finished the book atomic habits by James clear. Have you read that? I have not yet. Okay. No, it's, it's a good one. Um, I'm sure some people listening have some haven't if you haven't. I definitely recommend it. We'll throw it in the show notes, but, um, such a good book. He just makes building like good habits, super, super practical.

And I, I love what he does, cuz we try to do a lot of the same things. We try to make healing very practical and very simple. One of the things he says though is like a 1% improvement, like every day or every week or every month, you know, some short time period over time, if you continue making those 1% improvements, you will change your life.

Yeah. But a lot of people think of, um, growth and healing as like this big monumental thing that has to happen on a dime, like one in this one moment, my life needs to. Transformed. It's not how it works typically. No, maybe in rare cases it might look like that, but usually not usually it's like this everyday kind of boring little tweaks of getting better at this, getting better at that.

And you know, one of the things that I'm working on now is like trying to be humble. Like I'm a prideful person, prideful man. And, uh, trying to be humble. It's really hard. It's hard. Like not to maybe talk about yourself, it's hard not to kind of lash out when you feel like someone's insulting you. It's hard not to be maybe arrogant at times for me.

And so, uh, yeah, but, but if I could just make a 1% improvement just in being a little bit more humble today than I was yesterday, or this week than I was last week, um, over time, I'm actually probably gonna be a humble person. You know what I mean? Yes. And it will just become more second nature that virtual will be integrated into my character.

So, um, so that's a great healing principle too. It's like those little things, those little steps are where it's at, not the big grand things. Exactly. And, and that's where I think that's where I got full too. And I was younger watching. Movies is, you know, it's like, oh, this big radical change. That's what I need in my life is this, this one monumental moment that just changes my whole perspective.

And it wasn't, it was small steps that no one really noticed. No one noticed that I was being a little bit more compassionate. But for me, that was huge. That was, I mean, being one point, 1% more compassionate is huge stuff for me, you know, in some sense. And, uh, it, well, when I say a huge step, it means like, it takes a lot of effort that no one sees, like, you don't see how much it takes for me to not talk back.

right. Yeah. me too. To tell you that that tortilla is overcooked he's not talking to mechanic. No, Nope. You do. You did just perfectly right. Temperature every time. Yeah, there you go. No, no, no, me too. It's like, it's hard not to get defensive when conflict comes up. It's like, yeah, but I want to get defensive.

I really do. And it's just, if I can hold off a little bit. Or even together, it's like, that's great. But if I can't hold off altogether, just like at least maybe not say what I was intending to say that would maybe be nasty or, you know, come across the wrong way, but just a little bit better. And so if you continue to do that, It can make a world of a difference.

And I know, you know that as an engineer. Yeah. Like that continuous improvement all the time is great in the business world and right. But any area of life. So those of you sitting around just speaking right now, if you're listen, you're listening to this right now. If you're the type of person, um, who's kind of sitting around waiting for something monumental to happen, um, stop

And I say that in all the love in the world, like, I love you guys. Like, I, I really do. And we do this for you, but just, yeah, don't wait for that. Instead. Focus on one little thing that you can do today, tomorrow that will help move you toward the person you wanna become toward that healthy whole virtuous happy person that you want to be.

And those little things just keep out those little things. Don't do things that are big, do do the small things. And then in time you'll be able to do the, the bigger things and the progress you make will just be incredible when you kinda look back over time. But don't think too much on that. So don't stop waiting for something huge to happen, work on the little stuff.

yeah, that's, that's perfect. It perfectly said. And definitely, you know, give it a shot, give it a try. You know, you, you might surprise yourself. I didn't expect my dad to call my grandpa up and tell him that, you know, I, I didn't expect my dad or my mom to finally feel at peace. You know, I, I just expected, Hey, this is what I need to do for myself.

And I think it could help, you know, I'm trying to give something to them and I'm not expecting anything big, just trying to do, trying to do a small, I think a small thing. Yeah. And see what, see what happens. That's amazing, man. I really admire that if your parents were listening right now, what would you wanna say to them?

What would you want them to know? I would want to know that I love them. You know, our whole family loves them. We'll always protect you. Um, when you get older and, uh, you know, we, we will try our best, um, to be more patient. And, uh, I think also I want them to know that. That all their labor, all their hard work for all the kids was not in vain.

And that, that there there's, there's always a way for those who I know who, who, you know, were not religious, but there's always a way. And, and, uh, and for, for us, you know, following, you know, Jesus Christ and, and if we be follow Trump, we should act like it. Right. so it it's for us. It's like that, that's, that's the, the main, main thing is that, you know, mom and dad will, you know, there's always a way there's always a way to figure things out.

There's always that discussion to happen, or there's always a conversation we can have. Beautiful. Yeah. No, I love it, man. I did wanna ask you, before we close down the show, how has restored in particular been helpful, uh, for you, you know, you've been clear with me on that you found the podcast helpful on different things, but, um, yeah.

I'm curious how you would put in your own words then. Yeah. Such a supporter of the work that we're doing. I'm just so grateful for that. But yeah. How, how has it helped you? Yeah, no, I'm glad to help. And it's an honor and, you know, for, for McKen and I to help out, cuz we know this is something that's very needed in our world right now.

And, um, it's helped me in, in, in various ways. You know, it helps me in, in sharing the ministry with others and it's helped me to have a good conversation and, and open things up and, and uh, say like, Hey, you know, there's a way, there's a way to, through this, you know, there's, there's something out there for us and this it's restored ministries.

And I know that, you know, with the book that, that has helped, I gave it to my, my younger brother who, who left, you know, with my mom and I, and, and uh, I think I told you, like, you know, I, I hope he's read it. I don't know if he has or not. At least there's something that's out there that says, Hey, there, there is just something for us who, from children of divorce.

That's I think recognizing that, that, that this is a thing it's, that's a fir good first step. I think also too is just, you know, listening to the podcast says help me see different perspectives and pull out different gems as well, you know? And that's helped us, me, me and McKenna and, and let's say, okay, we could probably do that.

Let's try that. You know, or, or I'd say for myself, it's like, oh, okay. I can try to be patient more patient that way. And, uh, just seeing people's different perspectives and know that yeah, it's, didn't just happen to me. It's, it's pretty, unfortunately pretty common and it's not something to be necessarily ashamed.

So, so good. Yeah. No, thank you, man. So thanks so much. Yeah. And I found it helpful too, which is funny, cuz like I host this podcast, but no, literally listening to guests like you, I learned so much and if you guys were watching me right now, I have like a whole page full of notes from this interview, just learning so much and it's it's so, um, helpful for me as well.

So thank you. Um, for, yeah, just being so supportive and then also coming on the show, um, I just came to mind, I put episode 22 that writing exercise. I remember you reached out to me about that. Do you remember that it's like that writing exercise where you're kind of writing to your younger self? I don't know if that as well.

Yeah, I yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you mind, do you wanna talk about that for a second? I'm just curious how that went for you. Yeah. I actually it's been a while. So forgive me for not, not remembering clearly I can jog your memory a little bit. Yeah, yeah. If you can. Yeah. Yeah. I remember you reached out and just, um, I think you texted me and you're like, yeah, that was like.

Crazy helpful and emotional. And that it was the same for me. Like it brought me to tears and you're a man you're really manly, dude. If people don't know you, but yeah. I brought me to tears. I remember you telling me, like brought you to tears to yeah. That, okay, thank yeah. Now that, that does ring up more.

Cause I remember the tears part yeah. Fair enough. Yeah, no, it was, it was, um, it was awesome. It it's, it opened up so many things for, for me and things that I've been holding onto that have been in the back of my mind that I've I went into that dark room, so to speak and, and looked at, finally looked at what was going on.

And that was, that brought me into tears. Cause it's kinda like, well, Hey, you know, this has happened. And when I was riding it, it was like, whoa, man. You know, talk to myself again and just showing that love and compassion that I didn't have before growing up was huge. And just say you're okay. Here's if you know, here's how, here's how mom and dad should have said this, here's how mom and dad should have loved you.

That was huge for me. Um, and that's what brought me to tears. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, man, me too. That was like a tough yeah. Exercise to go through, but you got great healing tactic. Yes. And so willing to that show again, that's episode 22, it's a 10 minute episode, I think maybe a little bit more, and it just walks you through this exercise that I learned from a counselor, from a psychologist.

Um, that's really helpful. And just helping you heal and helping you kind of go back in time and talk to that younger self, which it might sound kind of weird, just hearing it, but give it a listen. And it's actually a really helpful, uh, writing exercise. Thank you so much, man, for coming on the show. If people want to get in touch with you, what's the best way to do that.

Yeah, they can reach out to me through my Gmail at Ervan 89, gmail.com. And then I'll spell that out for you. E C E R V as in Victor, a N T eighty9@gmail.com. Sounds great. We'll throw that in the show notes as well. Again, really appreciate you coming on, being so vulnerable. Uh, you and McKen are amazing. And, uh, and your baby Lola, right?

Yeah. Lola. Yeah. Lola. She's so adorable. so happy for you guys. So it's, it's just beautiful to see you coming from brokenness and then building something better. And, and that's, I think such a, on the note of hope, that's so hopeful and if you can do it, we all can do it. Yeah. It's so good. So thank you so much for coming on.

I want to give you the last word. What would you say to anyone listening right now who feels really broken, um, who feels stuck in life because of all the trauma they've been through in their family because of their parents broken marriage. Yeah, I I'd like to say, um, we, you know, I'm in that same place I was in that same place and still kind of am.

I know that it's hard to see through the directness and through the weeds, so to speak. But if, if you can see around the weeds and see, give it something to try, even if it's small something small, something really small and give it a shot, you might surprise yourself. No expectations obviously. And just, just say, Hey, I'm doing this for myself, doing this for my own healing.

And, and know that. There's people out there like restored ministries. There's definitely counselors. I've seen counselors as well. So there's that. And then also, I, one thing that was huge is just having friends to talk to and, uh, and yeah, just give it a try. You never know what, what might happen.

So many great lessons in that episode. A few questions for you to chew on, to think about one. Do you need to write a letter or have maybe a conversation with one of your parents and what's the smallest step that you can take today on that? Like, what's the smallest thing that you can do to move that forward and then just do it, make a plan and do.

Eddie mentioned my book titled it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. And the sad truth is that for a lot of teens and young adults, the most traumatic thing that they've endured is their parents' separation or divorce, but nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and the problems that stem from their family's breakdown.

And without that guidance, they continue to feel alone and struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles and so much more. And I experienced these exact problems firsthand. I felt so alone. I didn't know who to turn to, and it really shouldn't be this way. My book, it's not your fault is an answer to that problem.

It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges face by teens and young adults who come from broken families, such as after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted, inadequate, and even rejected. There's something wrong with me. What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life events?

How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage? And so many more questions. And the content itself is based on research, expert advice and real life stories. And after reading, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults are gonna learn how to handle the trauma of their parents' separation and divorce, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems.

They'll learn healing tactics to help them feel whole again, they'll learn how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions about their future. So if you wanna buy the book or even just get the first chapters for free, just go to ReSTOR ministry.com/books.

Again, ReSTOR ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. You can buy it for yourself or you can buy it for someone who, you know, needs the content in there. It needs the advice needs the guidance. Again, that's restored ministry.com/books, or just click on the link in the show notes. In this episode, we discussed how Eddie and his wife, McKenna are supporters of this ministry have restored.

And if you wanna help restored helping more young people from broken families to heal and grow and provide free content like this podcast, I'd love to speak with you. I'd love to have a conversation with you. And in that conversation, I'd share our vision, the amazing results we've seen and the investors pitch.

It's a 20 to 30 minute conversation. Plus, any time we spend chatting and meeting with me is not committing to investing in ReSTOR. It's just hearing the pitch. That's it. You can schedule a time with me at ReSTOR ministry.com/donate. Again, ReSTOR ministry.com/donate. Just click on the meet with Joey button and then schedule a time that's convenient for you.

Or you can simply email me@joeyrestorministry.com. Again, that's Joey ReSTOR ministry dot. The resources mentioned are the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 77. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who really needs this message, who's really struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them.

Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#076: The #1 Thing Missing in Marriages Today | Matt & Mindy Dalton

Marriage isn’t easy. There are good times and challenging times. According to research, people like us from broken families typically struggle more in relationships and marriage. As a result, we’re more likely to need help.

In this episode, a couple that offers marriage coaching offers advice and shares the one thing missing most in marriages today. We also discuss:

• The most common struggles faced by the couples they coach

• Communication tips to help your relationship survive and thrive

• Tactics for handling conflict well 

• Advice to couples in crisis, even on the brink of divorce

• A resource to help your marriage or another marriage that’s struggling

Get the Free Guide: 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Matt & Mindy Dalton

  • Marriage Coaching

  • Phone: 303-578-8287

• Books

  • Marriage 911: How God Saved Our Marriage | Greg Alexander

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Marriage is not easy. There's good times. And there's challenging times. And for people like us who come from broken families, we typically struggle more in relationships and in marriage compared to other areas of our lives and even other people, according to research. And as a result, we're little more likely to need help, but sadly, we don't often ask for it in this episode, a couple that offers marriage coaching, joins the show to offer advice and talk about the one thing missing most in marriages.

We also discuss the most common struggles faced by the couples that they coach. They offer communication tips to help your relationship survive. And. We talk about tactics for handling conflict. Well, they share advice to couples in crisis, perhaps even on the brink of divorce. And then you'll learn about a resource to help your marriage or maybe another marriage, you know, that's struggling.

So if that's you, if your marriage is struggling or maybe, you know, someone whose marriage is struggling, keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 70. If you want practical tips on how to build a great marriage, we have a free guide for you.

We all desire, love that lasts, but if we're honest, most of us don't know how to go about building it and to make matters worse. We're often discouraged by the prevalence of divorce and we fear that our own marriages. We'll end that way, especially if we saw our parents' marriage end that way in this practical guide for singles and for couples, we offer a roadmap for love, a simple roadmap for love based on research time, tell a couples and Christianity's wisdom.

The guide contains seven practical tips to build a thriving and divorce proof marriage. And in addition to the written guide, you'll receive a free 60 minute talk on the same topic. So if you want the guide, just go to ReSTOR ministry.com/marriage. Again, ReSTOR ministry. Dot com slash marriage ministry.

Singular. Just enter your name and your email, and we'll email you the PDF guide and the talk again, go to ReSTOR ministry.com/marriage. Or just click on the link in the show notes. My guests today are Matt and Mindy Dalton. They're the co-founders of marriage missionaries, which they've ran full time for the past 15 years.

Once Matt and Mindy placed God at the center of their marriage and the primary source of their love. It ignited a burning desire and passion to share God's glorious design with others. They do this through a process called marriage coaching, a mentoring friendship, one couple to another. Their mission is striving to live.

Their ordinary marriage made extraordinary by the companionship of Jesus and inviting others to do the same. They've paired on various TV shows on E WTN, and they currently serve Archbishop Aquila in the archdiocese of Denver, uh, teaching future deacons in their wives, in the diaconate formation program in the archdiocese of.

They've been married 31 years and our parents to seven children ages 28 to 12 and have six grandchildren as you're here in the show, they are Catholic Christians. So they talk from that worldview. If you're not religious, I'm really glad that you're here. My challenge for you is this, just listen with an open mind.

I know you're gonna benefit from this, even if you take out or skip the God parts. So here's my conversation with Matt and Mindy.

Matt, Mindy. Thank you so much for making time to be here with us today. You are welcome, Joey. Thank you for having. Absolutely. I I'd love to hear more of your story. Uh, how did you guys meet, get married and end up here today? Well, there's a long version to that. We're gonna try to shorten it, Joey, but we actually met, uh, 33, 34 years ago, kind of a, a way that a lot of people met back then, uh, in a bar, in a nightclub.

And the first night actually we saw each other from across the room and I'm six one and Matt's six, five. And I was like, oh, Hey, there's somebody taller than me. And so we, we kinda, I, but never, he never approached me at that point because I was with my parents. Friend's friend, son who had just met it.

Wasn't a date, but it maybe to Matt look like a date. So when we were leaving, Matt quickly asked the, uh, waitress, Hey, Hey, can I have a napkin and a pin? And he wrote down. Name and his phone number on this napkin and tried putting it in my hand. Optimum word tried. She didn't take it. I did not take it.

nine months later at a kind of Friday after work, you know, go have some appetizers type environment. I'm with some girlfriends from work. And Matt walks around kind of the corner at another bar. And he says that I had got an aisle and kind of did this dance, blocking him from leaving. And I'm like, Hey. I remember you, you're the guy that tried giving me your phone number.

And I guess he turned to his friend and said, keep walking, just keep walking. I'm glad I didn't Joey, we . So that is how we initially met and got to know one another and started going on dates for two years, we got engaged. Well, we did get married in the Catholic church. Both of us grew up cradle Catholic.

And the wedding for us. I mean, to be completely honest, we were Catholic and we went through our marriage prep that the church required, but we were just kind of going through the motions. It was more about the wedding day, the, you know, the dresses, the music, uh, where were we going on our honeymoon. And, uh, so I'll take it from there just as, how do we get here?

We had three incidences and. Again long, but I'm just gonna make short of them. Number one, my sister and her husband, 10 years into their marriage had a train wreck in their marriage. And they were on your show previously, Julie and Greg Alexander. They taught us everything we know, but Greg, my brother-in-law called me and said, your sister is this, that, and all these other things.

And I said, Hey, that's my sister. You're talking. and second of all, I said, well, I knew it took both of you to get to this place. And then third, sadly, I didn't know what to say to them in this desperate moment. So that was the first incident. And when we stepped back and look at our own marriage, we were on the same track, just a slower train because God wasn't central.

And so that was the first incident. The second incident, I found my boss, who I worked for. Dead in October of 1989. And I, he was married for 22 years, had a no fault divorce of two months. And his ex-wife called me two weeks after I had quit. She didn't know I quit. And she said, Hey, those answering services called and there's 150 phone calls.

Where are you? Long story short, we went over and found him and he had been dead for two a day short of two weeks when I found him. And I looked at that he had everything money to buy and he laid dead for two weeks, without anybody knowing he didn't take his own life. He died of a broken heart as, as I call it.

And I it's an experience. I wouldn't live relive for a million dollars and I wouldn't give it up. It really made me say, what is the meaning of life and love. And then thirdly, we. The writings of PO John Paul II in his theological work of love and responsibility, and then more so his actually his philosophical work and love and responsibility in his theological work in, uh, theology of the body.

And it just helped. Us understand the whys of God's plan for marriage. It, it was as though we'd been driving around, you know, with our dirty windshield and we sprayed it and it was like, oh right. And it was like, okay, the pits and the marks were still there, but we saw more clearly and. Initially we wanted to like, you know, like, oh my gosh, we, we have to share this with others and we couldn't help to share it.

Yeah. We couldn't help it. So how, how can we do this and how can we do it together? So we became certified natural family planning teachers and, and did it that way through the marriage prep. Process. And we did that for five years on a volunteer basis. And in that time, Greg and Julie had started the Alexander House and kept asking us for years, when are you gonna join us?

When are you gonna join us? And six kids for us at the time now seven, you know, were thinking, oh wow, full-time missionary work. You know, God had a, a plan and we ended up joining them. 2007. Yeah. And did marriage coaches. We were always in Colorado, they were in Texas, got trained to become marriage coaches by then, by then we presented workshops, Dave talks and slowly built up what we call our mission partners, people who support us.

And then five years after joining them, we discern and prayed and separated and started our own nonprofit called marriage missionaries. So we've been 15 years full time. Trying to shed some light to married couples. And I, I would say that the catalyst for all of that was our ownership of a relationship with Jesus Christ.

We were just kind of going through the motions and the rituals. It was there in the heart of Julian Greg's train wreck and our own contemplation of our own marriage and where we were coupled. Discovering the glorious beautiful reasons why God has shared his life with us. And we opened our hearts for the first time and really took ownership of our Christian walk.

So. Wow, what a story. So beautiful. And thank you both for, for sharing it. And I'm sure we could talk just about your story for the entire show for anyone listening. If you want to go back and listen to Greg and Julie's episode, that's episode 30 great interview, and I really admire the work that you all are doing both Greg and Julie and you, um, Matt and Mindy.

So thank you guys so much. I want to get into that work a little bit. If, if you don't mind. I know you, like you said, you coach marriages, you coach couples. I assume it's primarily couples who are struggling. Uh, perhaps not please correct me on that, but I'm curious for the couples that you do, coach, what are some of the most common struggles that they face?

First of all, Joey, I don't know about you and Bridget, but we all struggle. Every single marriage struggles. I, I don't know if you know of a perfect marriage. Everybody says. Marrying Joseph, but I think that's one piece of the battle that if we all realize that everybody is struggling, maybe with varying topics into varying degrees, but the human nature is, is that we're gonna struggle.

We're we're gonna have, uh, and that, and it, and that it's normal that we go through these moments of this is kind of hard. This is difficult. And, and I think, you know, one of the. We see in marriage coaching and people, maybe, you know, we go to mass or we go to the children's sporting event. We go, wow. Look at Bob and Mary and Joe and Susie look, oh my gosh.

They're family. They're just perfect. What's wrong with us? When in reality, if we, you know, a family that we don't think has troubles as a family, we don't know very well. And I think it's that comparison that can happen. And we think, well, is this really what we signed up for? And it's kind of a false comparison that leads to isolation.

We're alone. We're the only ones struggling. Why does everybody. Not have this or that. When in reality, we don't know. And if we talk to each other long enough and we're humble enough to admit it, we all have. Our struggles, but let me go back, Joey, even to kind of focus, to hone in on what you asked. Hmm. A lot of couples, when they fill out our intake forms, they'll put communication, communication, communication.

And what we've discovered over our years of marriage and dealing with working with couples is yes, we have communication struggles and breakdowns in our communication. But the root of that for the most part is a hardened heart. Little by little, we end up with in this place where. We haven't addressed the hurt and pain.

We haven't asked for forgiveness, we're building this wall around our hearts. And so I'm guarding my heart and our communication is not going to be as fruitful. And I would say to dovetail with that, you know, based on all of our struggles in every married couple struggles, the perfect marriage. This is the formula for a perfect marriage is two imperfect people who refuse to give up on each other.

But I would also say that when we recognize those struggles and acknowledge, Hey, this is normal. Other couples struggle too. All other couples struggle, too. The problem comes in is when we persist in those struggles, that's what puts our marriages at risk. So we, a lot of that isolation people not, we just stay, we just stay in the yuck.

Yeah. And we think that that's a theological turn by the way. Yuck. Yuck. . Yes.

So, so I think it's that we're, we're afraid to maybe, and I think this is a male female thing. Most of the calls that we get are from females that, that want their marriage to not just survive, but to thrive. Like you mentioned, in your opening and, and us men, you know, we do, we do anything. Halfheartedly, do we have our career and be halfhearted about it?

Or do we strive to do something that really is a desire of ours halfheartedly? No, we don't. We, we are intentional about it and I think that's the message that we'd like to send out there. It's it's okay to struggle, but it's not okay to stay in the struggle. So good. No, I, I appreciate you giving us some insight.

The couples that reach out to you on that note, mind, you mentioned, um, the hard and heart being at the core at the root of a lot of these struggles, Matt, when you and I talked, um, before you mentioned that you, you know, learned so much from Pope John Paul, the second about love and marriage, just like you said, moments ago.

Um, but in that conversation you said something profound about. What he taught was the one thing that's missing in most marriages today. Um, and that dovetails really nicely on what you just said, Mindy. So, Matt, I was wondering if you would, uh, talk about that mind thing. One of the most common things that he felt was missing was tenderness.

And, you know, I think we get married and we say the ideas and we just expect it to take care of itself. What we like to do is say, Hey, picture being on the altar and Matt, I'm gonna give my heart to Mindy and Mindy's gonna give her heart to me. And I'm holding my two hands together and I hold her heart.

And I'm now a steward of her heart. And I want to get to know her heart even more than I think I know her on that wedding day. So that my interior gaze can be one of nurturing and feeling the slightest tremor tremor. Is that the word you? Yeah, that's a good word of her heart and be attuned to it, but that we can communicate and generally we know, but do we ignore it or do we get defensive about it?

or do we really press in and freely share our hearts totally and faithfully. And if we do that on a consistent basis, the good, bad, and the ugly, it, it puts us in a mode of receptivity receiving where the other person is coming from. And little by little, the tenderness begins to develop. That's the fruit of that free total faithful sharing of our hearts on a consistent basis.

and then it it's proof that that God exists because if Mindy's hurting, I'm hurting. If I'm hurting, she hurts. We all are part of the body. If we hurt our children are hurting. And if our family hurts, so does yours. And so that tenderness is really entering into the other person's world in an intimate way.

And that, that, that takes time. You know, we come sometimes. Wounds in our hearts. Well, and I think too, we may have started with a lot of tenderness and love and being generous with our heart. And maybe that was more sentimental. Yeah. And, but then life happens and mortgage and jobs and children, and we slowly, this kind of aren't as intentional with our connections and sharing our hearts with one another.

Yep. And then life gets in the. Absolutely that make sense. Yeah, absolutely. And no, you made me think about, you know, Mindy, what you just said about how it can start that way. And, and that's a good point, Matt, that it may be not necessarily genuine tenderness, but some mentality. Um, but it might look like tenderness, but, but I've noticed that too, you know, I've, at this point I've been married four years and there's certainly that tendency to harden your heart and not to have that tenderness to the point where.

It almost becomes foreign. It becomes uncomfortable. It becomes kind of odd to, you know, sit around with your spouse and share something like intimate or vulnerable. Right. I mean, I, I think when we do practice, we like to, you know, one of the main foundational pieces, it's practicing forgiveness in our marriage.

and that brings about a vulnerability because it's humbling to acknowledge Mindy. What have you done or failed to do? That's caused hurt and pain, maybe just in this one argument or disagreement, maybe it's I stopped sharing my heart and I'm kind of stepping it. So that vulner being vulnerable with one another.

Yeah, it's a, it's a process, but if we've persisted in that place of our hearts being hardened and we haven't addressed. We have found over the years that couples resist the forgiveness exercise, because it does almost force them to be vulnerable. And sometimes the wounds are deep and that we find, we have found that they run from that rather than embrace it because the, the human heart is so stink and delicate.

And we forget that. In the midst of life and responsibility and, and woundedness. That we bring, you know, another thing this just popped into my mind, I think it connects is we like to have couples tell us, you know, not only how they met, but then what attracted you to each other? What was it that brought you two together?

What God has joined going to that positive piece of their love. And, you know, obviously you. You were attracted so much that one, you know, you propose will you marry me and, and, uh, having them go back as a reminder, retracing, you know, our love, their origin. Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. And that sounds super helpful.

Getting them back to that, to that route, cuz yeah, you're right. It so often we can just drift so far from, um, that origin from why we found love, why we chose to, to love each other, to get married and, and so on. I wanna quickly touch on a myth that you guys just, um, hit on briefly. Um, but if you would talk about it a little bit more, that would be great.

And it's this idea that. If you marry the right person, marriage should be effortless. Uh, I've certainly seen this. It's maybe more of a subconscious myth or expectation that we have, you know, thinking that well. And, and I think part of the expectation here is formed by movies. Uh, we see. Know, these romances play out on the screen and we almost form this romantic idolized expectation that our, you know, love would be so effortless and so beautiful.

Just like what we see on the screen, which of course isn't real. So, uh, yeah. I wonder if you could talk to that, like why, why is that such a myth? Uh, yeah. Why, why would that you use the word idolize? So marriage is supposed to be an icon of God's love for the church. It's supposed to be a sign, the visible sign in the world of Christ's love for his church.

No greater love than to lay down one's life. And oftentimes when we get that idealistic idea, Hollywood hallmark kind of feeling about marriage and idealize it, the icon that it's supposed to be, that points us. It's supposed to point us back to God. Our marriages, but oftentimes we think, or we get lulled into it.

It's just gonna take care of itself. And it becomes an, an idol rather than the icon it's supposed to be. And I think that's becomes dis illusional. I, I think, you know, just the general spirituality of us, even individually as Ignatius of Loyola would say. In the spiritual realm. We're never, there's only two directions.

We're either gaining or losing. There's no, like, you know, oh, Hey, can we just stay here for a while? Yes. We'd like to, but things happen in our lives. Kids grow up and it's not a matter of if a storm is gonna come, it's a matter of when and how do we handle that as a couple? And so. We can easily turn the icon.

That marriage is supposed to point us to back to God and forward to our, our end with I unity with God forever. And then we all of a sudden, if I think that or better yet, if Mindy thinks that I'm gonna fulfill her deepest, longing and her deepest desire, I think she's setting us up for failure because. I can't ultimately fulfill her deepest, longing and her deepest desire.

And so that's what being a help mate. We're, we're constantly helping each other to grow towards God and keeping our eye on the prize as a couple. When, when you, when we, when we, we were blessed because jointly. That's how John Paul two's writings and stuff came to us. It came to us at the same time and it hit us simultaneously.

And it was so beautiful to grow in that together. It can be difficult when one catches fire and the other one doesn't those who have been given much, much will be expected. You. No, I, I appreciate that. And, um, it, it makes so much sense how, you know, we can be greatly disappointed. I've noticed that in my own marriage and I've read John Paul the second as well, and like have gained so much from him, just like you guys expressed.

And, um, one of the things yeah, I learned is that you're yeah, like you said, Matt, you're setting yourself up for failure. If you expect your spouse to make you perfectly happy, but I do believe. That underneath almost every divorce is this belief that, you know, consciously or not, we expect our spouse to make us perfectly happy.

And when they don't, we tend to think like, oh, maybe I married the wrong person, or maybe I, you know, pick the wrong vocation. And, and then we might be tempted to, to walk away from, you know, a vow that we made, which is so sad. So, um, no, I, I, I think you're spot on starting is that happiness, you know, happy is fleeting.

Joy is everlasting. And so right. We can all go through times where, yeah. I'm not feeling super happy, but in the long run, it's worth the effort to be generous in our love with one another to persevere for that joy. That's what God intended. That's what he intended. Right. When they tried to trip up Jesus Moses, why, why do you, uh, you know, why do you allow for divorce?

Moses, uh, Jesus Moses said it's okay. Well, Moses said it's okay because of the hardening of your hearts, but in the beginning it was not. So they were naked and felt no shame, not just physically naked, but naked with their hearts, with their interior gaze, with their communication. Mm-hmm , you know, Hey, when you were asking Joey about, you know, marriage and we can set ourselves up.

I think it was Benjamin Franklin, who said, when we are courting and dating, we should have our eyes wide open. And in marriage, once we say I do, our eyes are half closed. I like that because we can be more accepting. This is who we did marry. And, and when we put God at the center of our marriages, That becomes our motivation to grow in holiness, to grow in joy.

Now we have something. Wow. Incredible. I, I love that quote and, uh, I, I think it it's so true and I, you know, it's something that I'm sure you guys will talk about is how helpful it is just to give grace in, in marriage. And I know my wife and I have found that helpful. Um, but I wanted to touch on another struggle that, that I've seen in my marriage and other marriages that I know.

And that is, um, I I've heard it said this. A man's temptation is to be passive and a woman's temptation is to control. And so I'm curious, I'm sure you guys see that play out. How can a man and a woman, how can men and women avoid falling into those temptations? I'm count the men a little bit here. I don't wanna beat it over anybody's head because I wouldn't have responded so well if it was shoved down my throat or beat over my head, but when Mindy and I I'll first tell a story, my own.

When Mindy and I were first married, I knew more about my favorite sports team and every player on the team than I did about my faiths in Jesus and the saints and so forth. And it wasn't so much about the father, son and holy spirit for me as it was me, myself and I, Mindy looked really good. She brought a good job.

It was really sadly. Hard to admit sometimes that it was selfish and it wasn't until I, as man began to own my faith and have an authentic mission. So Ephesians five talks about it starts out husbands and wives, be submissive to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives be submissive to your husbands and husbands love your wives like Christ.

Love the church. Well, I wanna go back to that word. Sub mission sub Missio sub under mission. When my mission was about me, myself and I, it was really difficult from, from a selfish standpoint, from me being so selfish. What was in it for me, it was hard for Mindy to be. With me on that. And it wasn't until I got a godly mission and some of us have to bump our head a little harder.

I did that. I really had a godly mission to love God with my whole heart and my whole strength. And because I couldn't give, if I had a mission about. The Denver bros and John Elway winning the super bowl. That was my mission. And I wore the shirt and the way I put on my shoes affected the way, the outcome of the game.

And if they lost, I was mad the whole week long. And you know, kids don't bother me. I'm I deserve to watch this game. I worked hard all week. That was kind of my mentality, but until I had a godly mission and it , it, we, we, I was challenged to go make a prayer hour. At a sacrificial time. when I heard that in church, I knew exactly what time I was supposed to go two o'clock on Sundays because that's what time the Bronco game started.

And that was my fault. God, that was my escape, sadly. And, and, and to be honest, you know, Matt telling that story, I'm thinking back, I, I don't know if I could. Stated it, in those words at the time, like, you know, oh, I just wish he'd get a godly mission and maybe be easier. But I know looking back, and now all the years of working with other couples, that that is a theme we hear from women a lot that they desire their husbands to kind of take ownership, take lead if you will.

And I think what can happen, maybe, maybe you could call that they become passive. and maybe not so much control, but the woman will just instinctively kind of take over. Okay, well, I'm gonna, uh, read some Saint stories to the children or, or whatever it might be. And so then there's kind of this dynamic of, she seems controlling and he seems passive when really, I think they both desire if we both desire the.

It was just not being able to articulate it. I guess our articulation was more like, Hey, I go to work every day and I provide, and there's food in the pantry and we're educating the kids. What else do you need from me was kind of my, yeah. And as we know, deeper depth to love and married love. And so once I had a shift in my own interior, Life and my interior gaze that Mindy was a gift sent to me to make me a better man.

I, I kind of lived out of fear too. Could I provide, could I. Be a good husband. Couldn't I be a good father of this growing family and that, and that we called to be each other's helpmate. Yes. Right. And were you, were we're a new creation? The two become one. Oh my gosh. Ah, you know, we are our children's marriage pro.

Oh my gosh. When I heard that statement, the first time I thought, oh wow, take that prayer for a while. And it gets a little interesting. Right. But then I realized that Mindy's disappointment. She wasn't against me, but that she was for me. And that helped me get through the fears of being the spiritual head of the house and busting more in God's Providence and being generous with my own heart.

And kind of allowing you to take that leave. Like we would talk about, Hey, on Sunday afternoons, let's start discussing this topic with the children or whatever it might be or. Put in this video series, whatever it was at the theology of the body for teen, I would think of a great idea. And then if he maybe forgot or we'd come up with the plan, I wouldn't be, I can't believe you didn't remember, you know, da, da, da, I'd just say, Hey Matt, remember we were gonna gather the kids and, and he's like, oh yeah.

So it was a gentle reminder, not a kind of fulling theory, not keeping track of, or yeah, she already has one mother. Right? Don't need another.

Oh, beautiful. I, I love the reframing of that too. How it might be more of a perception thing that we see the man being passive or the woman being controlling. And I know it certainly can play out in, in reality that way, but yeah, I think that is usually because of. You know, the things that you guys mentioned, and I love that you said Matt, going back to like, what's your greater purpose for life?

Because if you don't have one, all these mediocre superficial things will take that place and will always leave you. Empty unfulfilled. And, you know, we certainly know that's true when we pour our lives into any sort of, um, vice, but it's true. Also when we go after things like sports, again, nothing wrong with sports are good in their proper place, but of course that can't be that the whole meaning of, of life.

So I love that we've seen on the other end of the spectrum. And I, you know, I think sin has caused this sin is an Archer's term to miss the mark. And so Ephesians five and, and the gospel readings and the commentaries, they give us a new perspective or a new target. So it's worth honing our skills so that we can begin to hit those targets, not beat ourselves up over our failures.

And I think that's what the helpmate piece mm-hmm of it is too, but we've also seen men who are particularly religious. and they really love their faith and who really know their faith kind of be on the controlling side, out of a fear of the world. You know, the sky is falling and I gotta protect my family at all costs and we gotta do it my way.

Or, and so sometimes in that controlling environment out of that's kind of lived out of a fearful place. We say, Hey gentlemen, number one, don't miss heaven by 18. You may know, but are you actually putting what you know, into practice that 18 inches between head and heart? And then secondly, we ask them, are you acting more like Herod or are you acting more like Jesus hero is controlling, dominating?

You will do this impeding that freedom, that pillar of freedom and love it's so important. Or are you looking to be a servant leader looking to serve instead of being served? So that that's a challenge that can happen too from the converse side. Yeah, absolutely. And I know, um, Dr. Gary Chapman in the awesome book, the five love languages, he says too, that when there is that.

Controlled or passivity, or we're just missing each other. We're not investing in our marriages. We're not investing in our relationships. We're not, um, loving the other person in the way that they wanna be loved. That makes 'em feel loved. Then marriage can certainly turn into a battleground. I forget the exact quote, but he says something along those lines that marriage can truly turn into a battleground instead of a, a Haven.

And we can see our spouse, not as our helpmate, but as our enemy. And I think that's where the comparison comes in. I think that's where. You know, just the, the whole misunderstanding, misinterpreting people's actions. Um, marriage can, can get pretty messy at, at that point, for sure. Along those lines. And I'm sure feel free to say anything you'd like to add.

I'm curious about communication. You mentioned it before. It's something people wanna hear about. Um, what are some of the communication principles that you teach to the well, we'd take them back to their wedding vows and, you know, have you come here free? To give yourself away completely. Will you remain faithful and will you be open to life?

So free total faithful, fruitful. We like to have them kind of look at their communication through that lens. Are we sharing our hearts freely or are we kind of withholding some things? Does the platform exist that we can share? Our thoughts and feelings, or is it passive aggressive? That would impede freedom.

Yeah, totally. Do we totally share our hearts? Uh, are there topics we kind of, oh, that didn't go so well last time. So I'm not gonna bring that up ever again. And then faithfully, I mean, as a married couple, our communication should be set apart. We become Cnce in one another. Right. And so we have them look at that lens and we always recommend.

15 minutes a day, you know, and some couples, maybe it's starting a week, you know, maybe their hearts are so hardened that, and some couples come and they're not even sure. Well, what do we talk about? And so we'll do this on different retreats that we do. We'll give little prompts or we call 'em dinner prompts because they we'll have, 'em go out to dinner and just discussion points, like share a story from your childhood that your spouse has never.

Like a memorable, what, what was memorable about that? You know, nothing really in depth or just that sharing, not of the to-do list. Who's taken Joseph to soccer, logistics, logistics, you know? Yes. It's important to have what we call business meetings regarding those things, but this is more the intimacy piece and, um, sharing, sharing our thoughts and our feelings and our desires, and really setting aside that time.

That we be consistent. And even if we stop, get back on the horse the next day or two and, and, and retrench or whatever. Yeah. And make sure we do it. Because again, if we consistently share our hearts, our thoughts, feelings, and desires with each other on a consistent basis, it puts us each in a receptive mode.

We we're ready to receive where the other person is coming from. and we're more likely to find our path and a solution and resolve and joy. When we do that, I, I think one thing that we found that's detrimental to communication is the blame game is blaming, pointing the finger. You did this, and you said that versus kind of that interior look okay.

You might think it's 99% Matt's fault, but you know, was it your tone of voice? Was it your body language and taking ownership for that? Hey Matt, you know, will you forgive me for my tone of voice in the discussion we had earlier? And, and then that just kind of, okay, we're not gonna build up this hard and heart and it allows us to communicate freely and totally and faithfully with each other.

So good. I love that framework that that's really helpful. And I think that's so true when it comes to blame. It could be so easy to fall into that. So in the communication, please, that two couples cannot be any, a man and a woman cannot be any closer to any other human being than in the marital embrace.

And so does our words that we speak to each other during the day, during the week, during the month, coincide with our physical coming together in the marital embrace. Have you come here freely to give yourself away? Totally. And will you remain faithful so that it might bear life giving love? So that's what Jesus comes to restore is.

Spiritual communication with the physical communication. And every time we come together, we learn this and we are just like, oh my gosh, that's glorious. Every time we come together in the marital embrace brace and that ultimate communication as a married couple, it's a renewal of our wedding vows of what we said I do too.

That free total faithful, fruitful lens. Is kind of the new lens that John Paul too has given to married couples. That's that's also mirrored in the way God loves us. God is a perfect gentleman. He would never force himself on us. God love is free. God love is total knowing full well, what we were gonna do to Jesus.

He sent him anyway to be scourged. And stripped crowned with thorns nailed to a cross and killed, and he God's love is free. It's total, it's faithful. He'd sooner pursue the one who has gone as straight. Jesus is the hound from heaven. He pursues us with people and situations so that we turn back to God and the very fruit of that free total faithful love that God has for each.

And every one of us is the desire that all of us have to love and to be loved. I I, can I add, I'm gonna add more of a, kind of a lighter, no, just a lighter. Cause I think in marriage, lightheartedness has kind of been pushed out of the, and being lighthearted, have a sense of humor and being flirtatious.

And, you know, we have our own little way of flirting that our children may not even know we're flirting or little phrases that we say or well, or like , you know, I mean just little, kind of little, little. Because, um, we all had so much fun when we first met and got together, and then we let the Ugh of life kind of weigh us down and, and being lighthearted about some things, because stuff happens and trying to find joy.

And Hey, this is God's will for us in the moment. It's not very fun, but let's, you know, let's try to figure it out the best way we can. Love that. Yeah. And I've, I can certainly see that just the stress of life and responsibilities can take over that fun. So, uh, one thing, uh, my wife and I have gone to marriage counseling and, uh, I think it's a wise tactic.

I'm sure you guys do the same too. Work on the underlying condition of the marriage, the overall health of the marriage. And when you do that, the communication, it probably naturally, um, improves. So I think conflict will be lessened if the marriage is healthier, that's what we've seen in our marriage. Uh, at the same time, conflict is inevitable.

It's gonna happen, but it's worse. I've noticed when the marriage isn't in a good condition. So I am curious, uh, what tools or tactics do you teach to the couples that you coach when it comes to resolving conflict handling conflict ago? I thought, you know, why are we having these disagreements still? Why, why is this happening?

We're fighting. Same thing. And I finally figured it out. It, it was all Matt's fault.

have a splinter in your, or in my eyes. I'm trying to get the splinter outta my email. You got the beam, the introspection, you know, Bishop Fulton sheen said that we all have an interior civil war going on between the higher and the lower self, what we ought to do and what we want to do. and if we don't face that civil war and admit to our own selfishness, then we will selfishly combat other people those around us.

And I think oftentimes, you know, if we come from divorced home or broken home, or maybe a wound. Somebody stole our innocence when we were little or, or what have you, all of the different wounds and brokenness that we can come to if we don't first try to heal those things. And, and sometimes as marriage coaches, both things fall out of our scope.

We're, we're more in the realm of formation. How do we tap into the grace? The super abundant power of God and oftentimes couples, if they have. Extending circumstances, you know, family of origin, deep seated family of origin issues, alcoholism addiction, you know, a lot of times that can be better done with counseling.

And we're not afraid to, to suggest that I think the key with counseling is making sure that you go to a counselor who is pro-marriage and pro family. Your, your exact question was conflict. Yeah. Conflict, but it's owning our own. it's so easy to point the finger and lay the blame, or we can even blame our own heritage.

You know, I'm Irish and I'm short tempered and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, those alibis excuses and rationalizations only thwart God's grace. When I humble myself to say, you know what? My anger did go over the top with the children and Mindy, I saw you and the children melting into the. will you forgive me?

Will you help me become a better husband and a better father, as opposed to, you know, I realized that Mindy's belting in his carpet with the kids, cuz my anger just went over the top and I'm I'm feeling guilty and shameful and, and I say, well, well, those kids wouldn't have told me the amp were crawling into the house.

I wouldn't have to get so mad. I'm sorry. And I go outside and I, I say you handle it. You take care of. I think it's in being humble, admit admitting to our own selfishness and asking and begging God in prayer for selflessness, that we can make a gift of ourselves, even in the heat of the battle that we find our way we've become much easier to live with.

Yeah. no, I love that that posture of humility, I think, is the solution to so many problems. I've certainly see that in, you know, leadership when you're leading people, you know, the really the most important characteristic I believe of a leader is humility. And the same applies, I think, to marriage, to parenting, to, to friendships, really anything it's, it's just the foundation of all the other virtues.

Um, so, so, so that, that makes so much sense. I wish we could talk about this forever. We're coming close to the end of our time together. I wanted to ask you, um, there's a couples, you know, listening right now are people listening right now who are in a crisis marriage. Or maybe someone who knows someone who is curious, what advice would you give to a marriage that's in crisis, perhaps they're considering divorce.

Maybe they're already separated, but things just are really dysfunctional. What advice would you give to them? What's one thing perhaps they can do right now to, to help the situation. And we're talking about marriages that don't have violence or a threat of injury or anything like that. there's statistics that say, and they did a broad study and it was, I can't remember the gal's name, but it's outta of Colorado Springs where they did this large study, that couples a whole bunch of couples that were in crisis mode and on the edge of brink of divorce.

And they did this study and they looked five years into the future. And those that didn't get divorced were far happier, five years after than they were. They were even happier than their counterpart who decided to get divorced. And so oftentimes I think, wow, we have seasons in our marriages that can be the straw that breaks the camels back.

And as individuals are we one light in the midst of their chaos and their confusion in their darkness to say, Hey, did you know, there's a better way? What do you mean? There's a better way it's worth the battle. It's worth the effort. You know, we read a book and it's a great book by Lyla Miller, right?

Mm-hmm, primal loss and it's 40 or 50 stories about people now, adults experience their parents divorce. And I think this analogy is really, really good and I'm paraphrasing it, but it, I think this is one of the best analogies we've ever heard. The family is like an airplane in flight. Obviously an analogy here, the family is like an airplane in flight and we can do lots of things on an airplane.

And in fact, we can even argue and still get to our destination safely divorce. However, is one of the spouses taken in mid-flight the one and only parachute for themselves. Opening up the emergency door and all the while jumping out saying, you'll be fine to leave the plane unable and unsafe to land.

And you think about the damage that our culture has bought into with making it easy for people to get out of their marriages and their covenants and their oath and no fault divorce and all of these other things and kind of a throwaway society. If we can be that beacon, that one light and say, Hey, there's a, there's a, there's a better way.

We were that as, as INEP, as we were at the time, Julian, Greg Alexander had a train wreck. I mean you, their book marriage 9 1 1. Read that book. If they can make it, anybody can make it. And the way they make it is not going all the way to the cross and hugging Jesus. No, it's just simply turning around and saying I'm tired of singing Frank Sinatra.

I did it my way. I'm gonna try God's way. You know, we had a couple recently and, and they put this in our, their, our newsletter, but we kinda asked them to write their little testimony of what, what it was like going through marriage coaching. And, and one fact that she shared that we didn't even know through working with them is that she had an apartment already and she was one foot out the door, pretty much almost out the door.

and one phrase you put in there is co trying counseling or marriage coaching. It's not going, you have everything to lose or nothing to lose, but everything to gain. And so just, I think making that effort, sometimes it's just the phone call, pick up the phone and making that first initial phone call, you know?

Cause here's the, here's the. The fruit or the tragedy and Joey, I'm sure you can understand this, but Joey loves mommy and daddy, but he can't figure out why mommy and daddy don't love each other anymore. And I think it's just our natural tendency when mom and dad decide to divorce. We automatically galvanize our hearts and we say, I'm never gonna live, love that innocently again.

I'm never gonna love that purely again. I'm gonna guard my heart because that hurts so bad. And we don't even realize that we get to that place. And our hearts become impenetrable to God's mercy and his love that he's wanting to abundantly pour out. And so I think walking with other people who have similar circumstances in their own family, and that can encourage and help you navigate the landmines that the world wants to throw at.

In the last book of the old Testament, Malachi, I think it's chapter two, verse 16, God hates divorce. Why does he hate divorce? He doesn't hate the divorce. He just hates divorce because it's a sign of his life and love. And the counter sign is love. Doesn't really exist. And it's the kids who really pay the price down the road with that galvanized heart.

and, and our culture is literally held, bent on the throwaway in saying that the grass is greener when, if we fight and we get people on our side who can empathize and understand and help us to sort things out and find a new way of life it's worth fighting for. It's amazing. It's so inspiring. And I can certainly attest to the fact that divorce is so traumatic for the children, whether they're young or older, it it's such a difficult thing to live through and it makes relationships.

This is what the research says. As I know both of, you know, The biggest area of our life that we struggle with, uh, following our parents, breaking apart is our own relationships because our idea of love and marriage has just been so, so broken and so skewed. And it's, um, we don't know what to do when it becomes our turn and we might even run from it and give up on it all together.

So, so much good stuff. I wish we could talk forever. Um, on that note of people reaching out to a marriage coach, I know a marriage coach is, I know you guys do this. If you would tell us about your ministry, uh, what do you offer. How does it help couples and how could they contact you if they wanna get help?

Yeah. We have a website, uh, marriage, missionaries.org, and the majority of what our work is is marriage coaching. Couple to couple Matt and I do this together. We will, if, if once in a while, uh, Matt actually does meet with a lot of men individually say on the, like, in addition to if they both come, so marriage coaching, we describe it as a mentoring friendship.

What is God's. And then how do we live this out? How, how, you know, God intends it to be joy filled. So how can we live this out between the four walls of our own home? We also not per se that we put together, but other parishes sometimes invite us and, and will do a day or a weekend retreat. Uh, we don't have any kind that I know of.

except we're going to the family camp up there and gonna present to the parents this coming weekend. And what, what phone number do you wanna give? (303) 578-8287 is our phone number. And I, I talk to a lot of people. Oftentimes it's the females, the wives who are calling and I give them some different ideas of how they could not impose or give ultimatums, but rather to propose.

How they could get their husbands to seek this coaching. Sometimes coaching's a little softer approach than counseling as well. Mm-hmm um, and speaking of coaching, right? I mean, I think we'll put so much effort maybe in our own sporting growing up or now our children, you know, we get 'em the extra, you know, private lessons and we got 'em in weight class and we're making sure they eat properly.

And we might do that academically. We got the tutors lined up, but what are we doing for our marriage? Right? What is that continuing nurturing and making better, taking it from good to great or, I mean, or mediocre, we don't do anything mediocre in America. We want everything, you know, or at least we portray on social media that everything's wonderful, but.

I, I don't know. I just think it's, it's worth the, sometimes it's just the initial phone call. Be not afraid. That's what Pope John Paul's Anthem. Yeah, and I love what you said before too. You have nothing to lose. Like if you make a phone call and you don't go through with it, you know, that's okay. I mean, hopefully you will, but, but you could just make the phone call and that's it and focus on that step.

I, I love that advice. I wanna give you guys the last word first. I just wanna say thank you so much for, uh, your time, your expertise. Uh, yeah, you both are just amazing people. Just, I love the work that you're doing. So thank you so much for that. And for I'm sure all the sacrifices you've made to make that a reality and to serve these couples that you coach, I wanna give you the last word.

Um, if there was just one thing, one piece of advice, piece of encouragement that you want people listening right now to take away from this interview. Uh, what, what would that be? We have a really dear friend of ours who his father-in-law taught him this and it just sticks and it's simple. But you can ponder it for a long time because it's difficult to put into practice.

Treat your spouse as though they are a guest in your. Because when a guest is coming, we make sure the sheets are clean. Right. We offer them, what would you like to drink? Help yourself to the refrigerator, make yourself home. Let, let me know what you need. We're just, we bring out the best. So I, I just thought that was beautiful.

That was his father-in-law's marriage advice. Treat your spouse as though they are guests in your home. And Joey, I don't know about you, but if your Mary or Martha and you had the ultimate guest in your home, Jesus, which every human being is made in the image and lightness of how would we treat him something to ponder.

Amen. To that.

I really wanna hone in on one thing that Matt and Mindy said, and that is. if your marriage is struggling, what's the one thing that you can do right now to get help the smallest simplest thing that you can do to take action. Soon after this episode ends like seriously, what's the smallest thing you can do.

Maybe it means getting in touch with Matt and Mindy. Maybe it means signing up for counseling, whatever that is for you. Just do it, get it done, focus on that one thing and then worry about the next thing. But maybe that's not you, but you know, someone whose marriage is struggling. My question for you is what's one thing that you can do to help them get the help that they need.

Again, if you want the free guide seven tips to build a thriving and divorce proof marriage, just go to restored ministry.com/marriage or click on the link in the show notes. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 70. Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful for you.

Feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#075: Dealing with Your Parents’ Divorce, Anger Toward Parents, Helping Your Kids Heal | Ask Restored #1

In this episode, we answer questions from listeners like you. Each question reveals a real life challenge faced by someone from a broken family. We offer answers and practical guidance.

The questions include:

• How do you deal with your parents divorce when it isn’t a clearly justifiable split?

• As divorced parents, how do we make up for all the mistakes we’ve made and help our kids heal?

• How do I openly talk about my parents divorce without hurting them in the way I view it?

• How do I build a better relationship with my dad when he isn’t emotionally there and has never talked to me about my parents separating/divorcing?

• How do I deal with my anger toward my parents?

Get your question answered on the podcast

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Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

In this episode, we answer questions from listeners. Like you, each question reveals a real life challenge faced by someone who comes from a broken family that they're dealing with right now, we offer some practical guidance and answers to those questions. The questions include how do you deal with your parents' divorce when it isn't a clearly justifiable split as divorced parents?

How do we make up for all the mistakes we've made and help our kids heal? How do I openly talk about my parents' divorce without hurting them in the way I view it? How do I build a better relationship with my dad when he isn't emotionally there and has never talked to me about my parents separating and divorcing, how do I deal with my anger towards my parents?

And so many other questions, lots of practical wisdom in this episode. So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Elli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 75. I'm joined by two guests today to answer your questions. And by the way, if you wanna submit a question for my guests and I to answer on the show, you can do that by going to ReSTOR ministry.com/ask that's, ask ASSK and I'll remind you about that at the end of the show.

But my guests today are Alexandra and Kendra. Kendra posh was born and raised in Northern Minnesota, and now resides in Denver, Colorado. Her world was turned upside down in high school. When her parents divorced since then, she's been on a journey of hope and recovery one. She sees as a lifelong and worthy.

Kendra has a heart for the work that restore does and for true authentic relationships, Kendra shared her story in episode 57. So if you wanna check that out, feel free. And my other guess is Alexandria. Madrin originally from South Carolina. Alexandra has lived and worked in Denver, Colorado for the past six years after hearing about the ReSTOR podcast from her friend, Alexandra began working through the long term effects that her parents divorce left in her life.

Alexandra is enthusiastic about helping others to discover the freedom that comes through personal development and growth, and is an advocate of strong friendships with others who have experienced divorce and the practice of therapy to heal and grow. She has found that there is hope and goodness after one's parents' divorce and it all comes down to a personal choice to begin again, find healing and trust that your life will be one containing lasting love.

Now Alexandra shared her story in episode 61. So feel free to check that out as well. Again, lots of wisdom in this episode. So let's jump in

Alexandra, Kendra. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for, for making time to be here. Thanks for having us oh, I'm so excited for today. It'll be great. This is fun. It's great to be with you both. I admire you both as people, and I know you have a lot of wisdom, so I'm excited to give that to our audience.

The first question that we have is from an anonymous person. So. It's related to dealing with your parents' divorce and their apathy toward their marriage. Little bit of background. So the, um, person who submitted this said my parents decided to split last week. My mom has decided to split. She's the one who initiated it.

She can't fight for the marriage anymore. Uh, this person goes on to say, I don't understand how they can give up, especially believing what God says about marriage. I guess I don't fault my mom for trying, even though it's hard not to be angry at her for ending. , but I can't believe my dad can't even try to work on things to make our family work.

He goes on to say, I wish I could hope they will reconcile. But after a year of my mom, hoping for things to get better and they haven't, I don't want to have false hope, but I can't get how people who preach loving your wife, husband in a godly way, uh, can can't live it or even try. So this person obviously comes from a religious background.

So their specific question is kind of broken into two parts, which we can just answer in one, which is how do you deal with your parents' divorce when it isn't a clearly justifiable split. If that's even a thing, he says like an affair or clear right or wrong. And the second question is how can it end when parents don't seem to even try to change things and fight for their marriage and the whole family.

So a lot there, but what do you guys think? Who wants to jump in. I've said this before, but it's okay to not feel okay about it. It's okay to feel angry or hurt or sad, hopeless. All of those things let, let those emotions in don't don't tap tamp 'em down. And if you can find some good coping mechanisms to be able to deal with that, mm-hmm because you're witnessing something that is outside of your control, but it is doing so much to you into your day to day.

And if you, it affects you, it affects you. It, it totally does. It affects your siblings. It affects you wanting to protect your siblings. It affects you responding to a parent that wants you wanna be loving and helpful, but when they ask you to take out the trash, you wanna fight back and just say, but why you're doing this?

It doesn't make sense. Mm-hmm . And so I just would recommend that you allow yourself that freedom to have some compassion for yourself of this horrible time that you're in and this emotional strife. If you can, and you have a good support system and you can feel it. If you can try to have compassion for your parents, you do not know what hand they were dealt.

You don't know what they're dealing with. Right? Imagine a friend that is hurting and you don't know why they're doing what they're doing, but when they lash out and you know that they're hurting for a reason, you tend to be more forgiving. And I'm not saying again, so, so you can find those boundaries that you need so you can be present.

Totally. And so obviously we have a lot more grace to friends than we do to family, especially to something so traumatic as divorced when it's being done unto you. And you have no say in it, but there's so much, you probably don't know. And it's okay that you don't cuz you're the child and they're the parents.

Mm-hmm and that's, that's something that has taken me years to come to. It has. And so if you still don't feel it immediately, cuz this is so fresh and new that's okay. Hmm. Mm-hmm you, uh, what you were saying there made me think of just like grieving in general. So grieving as you guys know, is the process of really coming to accept a loss in your life.

Mm-hmm and it's not an easy thing, obviously, to go through any sort of grieving until let go of a person or this could, it could look like a breakup, it could look like a death, it could look like something even, you know, more minor than that. But your parents' divorce is definitely one of those things or separation, or maybe just a lot of dysfunction at home can all be kind of losses of, uh, some degree that you need to grieve that you need to come to accept.

But it's difficult to do that. It's not an easy thing to do. And so Kendra, like you said, giving yourself grace, giving yourself the ability to just kind of work through that at your own pace. You don't need to force it. You don't need to be on someone else's timeline. Um, I, I think that's, that's great advice.

Alexandra, did you have anything? I think that it's really important. To understand that you might not ever understand mm-hmm and you can search for answers your whole life. I mean, there are people out there who still, I mean, in their last days of their life and their, in like their sixties and they still don't understand at yeah.

At what point their parents made that decision and why. And I think it's really easy for others to say, well, just accept reality. You're never gonna know. And that might be true in some ways, but you don't, you don't need to just accept reality, but you, you might consider accepting that you might never know.

Yeah. Um, and there's a lot of freedom in accepting that you might never know. That's the only thing I might add. And, and also what you're not seeing might be years of their marriage from their point of view. And no matter what it is in life, if you haven't gone through it, not saying it's okay or not, but if you haven't gone through it, it's hard to understand.

Yeah, that's fair. So, so even if it seems quick, potentially of it's been a year, my mom's seeming like she's giving up after a year. It's like, we don't know how long these problems have been there with their marriage. Mm-hmm how much they've been, you know, trying different things. What, what have you, no, that, that's a great point.

And, uh, it's definitely. I, I think one thing too, cuz this person mentioned like the justifiable split thing. I think it's important to talk about that for a second. So if you guys mm-hmm will allow me I'll do that. So the first thing is divorce is not supposed to happen. It's not supposed to be this way.

I think most people would agree with that. Some people are much bigger proponents of divorce than others. Um, but there certainly are situations where some sort of separation is necessary because there's some sort of danger, maybe danger for your life. There's ongoing abuse. There's threats that are, you know, obviously are, are more than just like a spat or some sort of conflict.

Right? It's a serious thing. On the other hand there's situations where. Um, there's just more regular conflict that could potentially be re resolved, but it's not being resolved. So the way that researchers talk about this is there's high conflict marriages and divorces and low conflict marriages and divorces.

So again, high conflict being those situations where there needs to be some sort of separation because there's, uh, abuse, ongoing abuse, there's threat of life, dangers to the kids or to the spouse. Right? So in that situation, obviously we would say, you need to split. There needs to be some sort of distance with the hope that the marriage would come back together, be healed and the family would be whole against long road.

It is possible. It does happen. Sadly, it doesn't happen as often as it should, or as often as I'm sure all of us would like to see. So that's a high conflict situation. The low conflict situation is where, um, again, there's kind of these, what is often quoted in court cases at least is irreconcilable differences.

That's one of the most quoted reasons for getting a divorce. And in those situations, really the reality of it is that the spouses could stay married. They could work through their issues, but for one reason or not, they're just not able to do that. Or they're not willing to do that. This runs a gamut. So I don't wanna like characterize every single divorce that happens.

Like the same, it's the same, cuz it's not. But, um, in these situations, these can actually be the most traumatic and damaging on the children because there wasn't like the overt, constant conflict. There wasn't abuse. There wasn't that danger that was like in your face. And so to the child, it looks like you're going through life.

Things are fine. And then out of the blue. This divorce happened. So, uh, Paul Lamato, who's a sociologist at Penn state university. Uh, he's done some research saying that this type of divorce can actually be the most traumatic, the most damaging as opposed to a high conflict divorce. So with all that, just understand that what you're experiencing, what you're going through is not unusual.

You're not weird for feeling the way that you do. It makes sense, given what you've been through and what I understood from your question in the background that you wrote, this has been really shocking to you. And that makes sense, because this is a very real trauma and it deserves to be treated as such.

Tagging along with that, I just wanna say a couple things about your parents' marriage. It's not your job to fix it. It's their job to fix it. You're not meant to be their moral police. So even if you disagree with the reasons for them splitting, you're not meant to be the one to tell them they have to stay together.

Obviously I think most people know that, but for one reason or another, typically on a subconscious level, we feel like it's our responsibility to do that. So with that in mind, you can speak your mind. If you wanna say something to your mom or your dad saying like, Hey, I really. Wish you guys would work this out.

I hope you would work it out. They might not be aware of that. Cuz a lot of times what parents assume and what research shows is they falsely assume this in the majority of cases is that the kids feel the same way about their marriages that they do. That's just not true. Mm-hmm , that's not what the research says.

So I remember that people can change, but you can't change them. The best thing that you can do for them is to work on your own, uh, wholeness, your own healing, your own brokenness, becoming the best version of yourself. They're gonna see you thriving and they're gonna want what you have. And so, uh, I found that especially helpful when you're trying to influence another person just to focus on yourself and, and love them in the best way you can, of course, with all the appropriate boundaries.

Anything else you guys would add to any of that? Sorry for the long monologue. I wish I would've heard. When it seemed almost out of the blue that my parents started divorce. Um, it was just so quick and just everything turned on its head so quickly. And at 14 mm-hmm I couldn't keep up. I didn't know which it was up.

And I thought it was my problem to fix mm-hmm I thought it wasn't a good enough child. And so that's why there were so much right. There's a lot of lies that you begin to tell yourself, or you hear so much from others for, for whatever reason that you start to believe something. That's not reality.

Mm-hmm . And so I, I wish I had heard that. Yeah, no, I hear you. Me too seriously. Mm-hmm yeah. Ditto. I also just wanna tell you how sorry I am and it's gonna be a tough road ahead, and you probably know that, but just know you're not alone. There's a whole community out there and there's three people right here who are, who are for you.

Right now. So I'm really sorry, but you're not alone. And yeah, just hearing that is, is sometimes helpful. Absolutely. No, it's, it's more than helpful. It's like that could even be healing as weird as it might sound, just to know you that you're not alone. Cause we often feel so alone. One of you brought up empathy for your parents country.

You said that. And then Alexandra, you said something about just going through your life kind of, maybe not to this extent, but you, you touched on something related to wanting your parents to get back together or mm-hmm, kind of this whole thing being undone and never, maybe fully resolved throughout your life.

So on that second point in Alexandra's point, there's people yeah. Who go into their sixties or even to the end of their life who are just like holding onto this hope that your parents would get back together. And I think, I think that's a, a really good and beautiful hope. Um, it can be really difficult though to live with.

I remember, I think it was in primal loss, the book that tells the stories of, uh, 70 adult children of divorce, so, and loss, great book. um, there's a guy who said that, uh, when his, I think it was his dad died, the first thought that he had is like, well, now mom and dad will never get back together. So even on a subconscious level, again, we can go through life kind of holding onto this hope.

Um, so it's good to kind of recognize that. And when it comes to empathy, going back to Kendra's point, uh, you can ask one question which can be really helpful. It's been helpful for me, kind of understanding my parents and helping me love them is what trauma have they endured in their lives. People make so much more sense once you understand what they've been through.

And once you understand what they've been through, you're moved to some form of compassion. It doesn't excuse bad behavior. It should never do that. But it can help you understand them and love them and at least see things through their point of view. Again, not saying that what they did was right or everything's okay.

But at least you'll be able to, to understand 'em on a deeper level. So with that, we can be the second question, unless you guys have anything else that you would like to add? Uh, I still struggle with compassion. So I say that now , you know, like 12 years later. Yeah. Because, um, doing the work it's something I had to write down because I would get triggered.

I would just get mad. I would hear something else, years off the, the divorce about a memory here or this, or I would look at a, a memento and it would bubble back up and I would need to see that in writing of have compassion, have grace. And I just started asking, I didn't ask my mom explicitly. how were you traumatized?

It was more of tell me more about your childhood. What was your perception, perception of your parents? Like your dad died when you were young, you had a step dad. How did that go for you? Just to try to. Tease out some of those things now that I'm in a place to do so. Yeah. And to ask those questions and potentially, you know, pull by that curtain of what I thought was an idyllic childhood, right?

Yeah. And because everyone has skeletons in their closet, no family is perfect, no matter what they seem, but each and our, um, each and every one of us has such a unique and individual childhood that could have potential traumas that might not be there for someone else. Right. Yeah. Um, so asking those questions, if you feel you're in a place to do so, that's really good.

Mm-hmm I remember, um, creating a timeline of like a family, just kind of understanding like the different events that happened. And I remember learning, I never knew about this. I was talking to one of my aunts and I won't say which grandmother, but one of my grandmothers was in a plane that caught on fire.

Like one of the engines caught on fire and that was like very traumatic for her. Which then went on to affect like her everyday life. So even learning those things about your grandparents and just the whole family line can actually shed a lot of light. A lot of people who come on this show, they say things like, you know, their parents were also children of divorce.

So they also came from broken families. And then as we kind of understand more about ourselves and how that experience affects us, we're able to understand them better. So, second question is from Barbara and Joe it's. The topic is related to helping your children heal from your divorce and loving them in spite of the mistakes you've made as a parent.

So little bit of background. This is Barbara writing. She said, my husband and I, um, it's their second marriage. They've been together 20 years. So both of them were divorced, got married. Um, and then they've been together for 20 years. Um, my husband and I have four children who are children of divorce. Your podcast have, uh, has been incredible for us to listen to our children, have a range of issue.

Uh, with a range of intensity. Um, it is so helpful to put words to what we are experiencing in our relationships with them. We know that educating ourselves is a start. We hear what you are saying to be normal and take a little at a time. But sometimes it is so hard and we just don't know what to do so many questions.

So their questions, I broke 'em into three. They said, you know, besides educating ourselves, what can we do? How can we help them? How do we love. Uh, second is how do we make up for the mistakes that we've made? And then third is how do we nurture our relationship with our children? Um, Alexandra, do you have any thoughts on, on those questions?

Yeah, I think there's two that really stood out to me. And, and first and foremost, I mean, kudos to you for even asking these questions, because this is very, um, I mean, humbling and, um, rare too. Yeah. And very rare. And so I just first and foremost, you know, thank you for caring, um, about this because, uh, a lot of, a lot of parents who have children who have experienced this, they're not asking these questions.

So first and foremost, thank you. I wanna first, um, kind of shed some light or, um, kind of feedback on how can we help or how can we make up for our mistakes. Unfortunately, you can't. In my opinion. I think, I think you can't make up for them, but you can definitely help your children through what the repercussions have been.

Sometimes I think it's it's really with anything you really, you wanna make up for it. I think, yeah. I just wanna be very Frank it's. Yeah. It's kind of that, that deed that can't be ended. Um, but I also think that, um, to, to help them forward, how do inertia, our, our relationship with our children. I think you gotta be a 10 star listener.

You gotta really listen to your children and listen to how they're feeling and actually listen to them. And maybe you already are, but what are they telling you? They need ask, what, what do you need from me right now? I know I can't make up for this, but what do you need from me? And how can I best help you through this?

I know this has been really difficult for you, um, but how can I help you through this? And. , you know, what do, what do you need from me now that you didn't get then? And then also just, yeah. Listening, but also being there for them. I think that's the suggestions that I have. Yeah. Um, but thank you so much for, for caring and asking, cuz I, I think your children really will appreciate this.

Those are great points, especially how you can undo your mistakes. It'll be nice. Wouldn't it? Mm-hmm like an undue button for life you wish. Yeah. Mm-hmm but no, I think that's good. Like, and, and within your, um, answer, which so much wisdom in it, there's a couple things I baked into if it's okay. I wanna kind of extrapolate those out one.

Is that, um, Kind of owning up to the fact that you've made mistakes and that there are consequences of those and Barb and Joe. Definitely. I know them personally actually. And they're like incredible. Mm-hmm, , they're such an example to me of what I think all parents who have gone through a divorce or difficult marriage, um, could strive for, should strive for, so just like taking ownership of those and like admitting like, Hey, this is my fault.

Cause so often what I've seen happen is when people make mistakes, they just make excuses or they blame other people for what they're going through. And certainly there could be a point to that other people had a hand in bringing it about, but it's a pretty fruitless, um, struggle to try to just cast blame.

Right. And again, I'm not saying like, if you're in a situation where someone like really hurt you, they should take ownership of really hurting you. Not saying that isn't the case, but in terms of like what you have the power to do, all you can do is like control. What's been done to you and how you react to it.

And so, um, and so I think, I think it's really good to like take ownership of those. And then, you know, like you said, help your kids deal with the repercussions. Um, you said, like being a great listener, that kind of presupposes that there there's an open channel of communication, which is what, what I've found.

And just talking with people who come from broken families is they're so often not good point in this case. There is. So you answered it perfectly, but just to everyone listening, who doesn't have that open channel of communication, that's one thing to start for and you can start in the smallest way. So we'll touch on a little bit later.

Um, but, but I would say, um, that's like really, really important kind of just like. Cracking the ice they're breaking the ice and just starting that conversation can be so hard. But once you, once you do that, it's gonna go so much better. And we can maybe throw in some advice for, for how to do that. And we'll get into that a little bit later, but Kendra, just wondering, or Alexandra, did you have anything to add to that after what I just said, Kendra?

No. Yeah, go ahead, Kendra. So many thoughts besides educating ourselves. What can we do that one really struck me. I think the first thing is, have you dealt with a trauma in your own life? Did you deal with the trauma from your dad's first marriages? Right? The best way is to lead by example. And if you see a lot of things happening, as you said, there's a whole range throughout your kids.

If you were dealing with your own stuff, that will have massive, massive waves, like in the pool of your family. And that in and of itself would also be a way to help them heal and to help love them. Hmm. I love that. You said how do we make up for the mistakes? Because I wish. My dad would admit he was wrong.

I wish he would own up to some of the hurt. And so even acknowledging them is helpful. Yes. There are so many repercussions that you cannot control and it is what it is. I would recommend, uh, similar to the five love languages. You have the five apology languages, and maybe you have done this, or you haven't, but even just coming forthright with each of your kids individually or in a group, whatever, you know, feels better for your family dynamic to just tell them I'm, I'm really sorry.

Like, and not just in a, oh, let me, you better Christmas president, or how can I help you here financially? Or what have you, but in, in a unique way to each of them, because they all have individual trauma from this. And so I also really liked that you acknowledged that there's a range of issues and a range of intensity.

Each person is dealing with this differently. I remember feeling weird that I seemed more impacted than a sister. Right. I have four sisters, whole range of emotions, right? Yeah. Um, and so. each of your children will need something different at different times, whether it's the apology talk that you might have, whether it's, um, help with a certain issue.

And to just recognize that encouraging that open communication of that listening that Alexandra said mm-hmm but also it's okay if they don't talk to you about this mm-hmm you just wanna make sure they're talking to someone mm-hmm so I'd really encourage actually to talk to someone outside of that family system, both peers, as well as potentially another mentor couple, right.

That they could go to. That's not in their same age range, because they need someone to vent to without feeling like they could potentially be hurting you during that process. Mm-hmm um, and so I would encourage them to do that. They may already be doing that, and it is not a replacement to a parent for you.

I wanna say that again. It is not a replacement parent. But they need a safe space to talk about issues that they are still struggling with. Right. It could be a therapist, it could be family, friends, it could be individual friends that you do not even know. And I would just, again, encourage that wholeheartedly.

So good. And, uh, about the five apology languages, is there some way that people can learn more about their, is there a resource on it? I'm not aware of it. You've told me a little bit about before, but I never knew there was like a book or something. It's revolutionized my relationships with my sisters.

We'll just say that. Boom, boom. I think it's actually by the same author. Okay. So let's link it in the show notes. Cool. All right. Sounds good. I'm sure if you guys Google to like five apology languages that come up, I'd imagine. So really good stuff. I like what you said about that. Not being them, not being the one that their children can fight in.

Cuz I, I think for a parent who's so eager to help. That might be a real desire and that makes sense, but I think that's really good. Um, apologizing. So one thing I would just add to that is. Uh, you can do that in person, which is ideal, or if maybe it's too intense and too difficult for you and for your children, you can do that through a letter.

Uh, an email is possible too, but I would say either a letter in person is ideal, a couple other quick pieces of advice that have worked for yeah. Other people is, uh, send them resources, useful resources. So, and when you do that, don't like hit him over the head with a book. That's probably not the bright choice you can, but depending on your relationship.

Um, and when I say that I I'm being a little facetious, I mean, like telling them like, Hey, you should read this book because most people don't read a book when you suggest it like that. But if you instead give 'em like little bite size pieces of that book or content like that, or even our content, um, then they might be more likely to do that.

Cause if you think of it, you know, typically I know the way I work and about you guys, but like, I need to be slowly exposed to, uh, something like whether it's a podcast or an author or book, there's a rare occasion where I'll hear a book and I'll be like, I'm totally reading that, but that's rare. so the slow influencing, I think works well.

A video, a podcast episode, an article, you know, a, a real, something like really short, I think can, can go a long way with kind of opening the door to, uh, someone like that to do anything. Yeah. If you have financial resources to help pay for counseling, sometimes as a young adult, it feels like something you want to do, but you feel financially strapped for whatever reason, that could be a potential way.

And also going Jo of what you said about that apology of having the letter. I actually might have appreciated that better than a conversation because I can digest on my own time or I can keep referring back to it. Mm-hmm it's memorialized. So kudo suit. That was a great suggestion. That's really good. I love that.

Yeah, absolutely. I also think I love that. You said how can we love them or how do we love them? I mean, you know, your children the best, so, you know, good point your children's really, I mean, I hope, you know, your children well enough to be able to, I'm not gonna assume that you're having these conversations with them.

Something that's helpful is to ask them questions. Maybe if they're, if they're ready, ask them questions about their childhood. I know that's something that was really helpful between my mom and I, so that I could be very honest with her and I didn't have to start the conversation randomly after going to therapy, you know, randomly going and be like, Hey, I just wanna talk on my childhood really quick.

If you ask them questions, if they're ready and maybe give them a little precursor, like, Hey, would you like to get coffee and just kind of talk about some stuff, nothing, nothing super deep, but would just love to, to love you in this way. And there's a couple questions I have for you that will really, I think, open up the conversation if they're ready.

and if you, the parent already. Yeah. And if you are the parent already, um, but you know, you're asking these questions, how do we love them better? This is just a suggestion. So, so yeah. Um, so if you're, you know, getting coffee with them, asking specific questions, like, you know, what were some things that we did well, raising you?

What were some things that, that we could have done better that, that I can, you know, help you with now? How do I love if you have grandchildren? I don't know if you do, but you're listening. Maybe, um, you have grandchildren asking, you know, how do we be examples for our grandchildren? With this history, because I think that's something that's really hard for children to.

I don't have any kids, but I know siblings to go to their parents and, and really hope that they're examples of marriage and, and raising kids. But it's hard when you have those wounds. So asking them just frankly, how do, how do I help you in being an example for the grandkids? So good. That could be a real struggle.

And we probably do another show about that altogether. But one thing that came to mind when you were talking to Alexandra is you can share regrets with your children too, without maybe divulging sensitive details, which I think are usually not helpful. You can even share like, you know, in your apology, you can say, I'm sorry for this, for this, for this be specific, that's super helpful.

Then just be like, Hey, I'm really sorry for everything that's happened. Like, you can start with that. That's fine. But then get into the specifics. Like, I'm sorry that, you know, we, weren't a good example about what a marriage is supposed to look like. I'm sorry. I wasn't able to really pay more attention to you as a child, which then I know affect you and affected you in this, this, in this way, the more specific you can be, the more I think recogniz and empathize someone will feel.

And I think that goes a long way in helping to rebuild that relationship. But one thing, when it comes to building a relationship, you, um, don't always, you don't just do it through these like heavy conversations, right? You have great experiences and other good conversations that are hopefully around like common ground.

Um, and we'll touch on that a little bit later. I have a request, please do not bash your ex. That is still their other parent. And I would say that that even if you might feel justified or all of those things, that is mm-hmm , you need your own system to talk about this outside of the family, right? It, it, I promise you, it does not help in building up a relationship between you and your child, because that's the hardest thing for me with my parents.

Um, as soon as it delves into someone else or cuz again, that's not owning up to it. It could be making an excuse for things. Yeah. Again, you need to be able to have compassion for yourself of what you were going through for that, for my own personal experience, it, every conversation has taken a downward turn and I leave even more hurt and mad.

Like everything gets compounded when my dad would bash my mom, it just mm-hmm it is never productive. Never. Yeah, that was so good. Mm-hmm there was one resource I wanted to mention too. That might be helpful for your kids. There's a psychotherapist called Megan, uh, divine and she, um, has a book called it's.

Okay. Not to be okay. And right. What Kendra said before. So, um, that could be really good, but in that. Book, and she has a great video that we can link in the show notes as well. Uh, she says like one of the best, uh, solutions, I guess, to helping someone who's in pain is actually not trying to solve their pain, but just being there with them in the midst of it.

And so it might be your temptation to kind of look at your kids' lives and see all the brokenness in whatever their relationships, their career, their academic pursuits, and try to like fix it as if you were like a, you know, a construction worker, but it it's, that's not how it works when it comes to people, right.

We're not like a, a broken building where we can just like patch something up super easily. Yeah. We really just need people to be with there, with us in the pain. And what research shows according to the psychotherapists is that's actually the most helpful and the most appealing experience we could have.

So just be there with them in the pain. Um, you can offer resources again, you can encourage them to go to counseling like Kendra mentioned, but the, the most powerful thing that you can do is just give them your presence often. Anything to add before we move. Great. The next question. We're gonna jump ahead a little bit here is, um, about from an anonymous person, talking about healing, your relationship with your parents and talking about the divorce.

So this is kind of switching roles from the parent to the child now. And, uh, there's three questions here. One, how do I openly talk about my parents' divorce without hurting them in the way I view it? Two, how do I stop avoiding the word divorce and be able to talk about it in three? How do I build a better relationship with my dad when he isn't emotionally available emotionally there and hasn't been, and, and hasn't talked to me about my parents separating and divorcing great questions.

Really good stuff. Do you wanna jump in Ken? It's scary talking to your parents about divorce. It is because. first. Do you feel safe enough to talk about it? That's that first question, right? If you're potentially avoiding the word divorce, maybe you're not there yet. And that's okay. The best way that I've noticed with my own parents has been using I statements not you did this, but I feel hurt when this happened or I was missed here.

I didn't feel seen those kinds of things. Um, because when you open that conversation, are you okay with them potentially not responding? Well, mm-hmm I thought I was in a position to talk to one of my parents about this and I brought it up and I was not ready for them to say, this is too much for me. I can't deal with this.

That really set me back in my healing experience, even though that wasn't their intention. Because they weren't ready to talk about it. And it's something that I've had to unpack more with my counselor, because that did a number on me across a lot of relationships. So I really wanna highlight, do you feel safe to talk about it and are you okay if it doesn't go well, if you are not, do not feel pressured to have that conversation, right?

Let it, let it have space, let it, let it breathe and do some work on it where you could at that point. So now if I brought up that conversation and my parent responded like that, I'm okay. Now I was not before mm-hmm um, and so there's been, been a drastic difference in that, so good. Mm-hmm yeah. So I'm gonna give you some bad, good news, and then I'm gonna give you some good news.

the bad news is that some parents will never want to talk about it and they'll never wanna acknowledge it. And they will just act like it never happened forever. This might be your reality. so just know that, but the good news is that you don't, maybe you don't know that yet. So one, it could maybe not be your reality and two, even if it is your reality, there's still a way forward.

And there's still a lot that can be done for you personally, even if you're not able to have those conversations. So one, I would say just first know that it might, you might never be able to have a mature conversation because some parents that are divorced who have kids are not mature enough to have a conversation, or they haven't done the work or they haven't, they're just not willing.

Mm-hmm so that is the case. Um, sometimes it's just, it's just not a reality for you, but in that case, if that is the case for you say you reach out or you kind of put a soft launch out there and you're like, is this something that we can maybe talk about when you're ready and I'm ready? I'm ready. Are you ready?

You know, and they say, no, just know that there's so much that you can do on your own. And there's also a lot of, a lot of freedom and forgiveness. There's a lot of freedom for you ahead and, and this podcast will help and the three of us will help and yeah. Um, there's still a positive for you. So I just want you to know that even if you're never able to say the word divorce, and even if you're not able to build a better relationship, which I hope with your father, that you are, there's still hope because you said when he's not, isn't emotionally there.

If he's not there now, I, I hope and, and you can give him resources. I hope he gets there emotionally, but sometimes they don't. Yeah. So just know it might not happen, but I, I really hope it does. And even if it doesn't, there's so much for you and, and so much ahead. Great advice. I love the tough love.

Thanks for saying that. Sorry. No, no. We need to hear that because I think the expectation can maybe be this fairy tale of like, everything will be okay. Mm-hmm . Yeah, the reality and it's not bad to hope. No, it isn't. No, and it's good to know too. I mean, I've been there. I've been there where you are, where you don't know, are they ready?

When will they be ready? Yeah. And after many years, I'm not, I'm not sure we ever gonna get there. Maybe we've got, we've gotten somewhere, but I don't think, I think there is this, this really deep hope and this child in all of us, it's like, I just wanna just want these answers and I just wanna feel better.

And I just want, I just want my dad back. Yeah. And yeah. And, and you are so loved and you are so seen and heard and, and there's positive. And a way forward for you. So please hold on to that really good couple things. Um, couple thoughts for me. So it's ideal. If you can obviously talk to your parents about this, what Kendra said made so much sense.

Rod D just said, makes so much sense if you're in a place where you can do that, um, how do you do it? So here's what I would suggest, you know, maybe you're living with mom or dad. Maybe you're not, if you're not, which probably is the case for most, um, people listening, but maybe not, you can, uh, text them and say, Hey, I'd like to talk with you about the divorce.

Or you can say, Hey, I'd like to talk with you about something serious. So what you're doing there is you're kind of, okay, Alexander, you mentioned this before, you're kind of setting the scene, you're breaking the ice, you're setting the tone of the conversation. So that's really important, cuz it can prepare someone to have that conversation as opposed to maybe just like randomly on a Tuesday night being like, Hey, I wanna talk about the divorce.

It can be a little much maybe for both of you. So give them a little bit of a heads up. That's usually ideal. Um, and then that first conversation that you have make it brief. So I've had these conversations with my parents. They're not fun. They're really uncomfortable, but they're important. And, and they can bring about a lot of healing in the long run.

You have to take a long view to this. It's not gonna be like one conversation and you're done typically you need to have multiple of these and, and they will really help in the long run or they can really help. It doesn't mean they're gonna go super well, but at least you can kind of get things off of your chest.

Say what you need to say aside from making that first conversation brief as a part of that, I guess I should say is hit on one or two main points that. You don't need to hit on like 13 different things that you wanna say, you can deal with those later. Um, but yeah, you can just hit on one or two main points and that's it.

And then just that little quick win, that little success that you experience will then help you build the confidence to have future conversations on that. And then at the end of the conversation, just ask the question like, Hey, do you mind if we talk about this again, at some point in the future, when I'm ready to talk about it and see what they say, if they say yes, then, you know, okay, I can approach them at a future time and ask to talk about it.

And we're all good. If they say no, then that's kind of going back to what Alexandra said, something that, you know, we just at least need to swallow deal with for now. And hopefully in the future, that will change. If it never does, then we have to figure out a way to be okay with that, which it's really tough.

It's really hard. So. Going back to what we said before, too, if that's too much sitting down and having that conversation with your mom or dad, because maybe it would end badly, maybe you're at a, what we say is kind of to do an assessment of like, this sounds super nerdy, but do a little bit of like an assessment of how do I think this will go?

And if the likelihood that is that it will go like really badly, let's say I'm like, there's 80% chance. This is gonna go really badly. I wouldn't advise having that conversation. But if you think there's like a 20% chance, it will go badly, then take that risk. I think that's a good risk. So if that's the case where it might go really badly, again, going back to a letter, writing a letter or emailing your mom and dad, even though it's not ideal, that can be a good alternative as well.

Anything to add to that before I go to the next point that they asked about building a better relationship? Yeah. Just about I have something I, anything, any of those points? Yeah. Yeah. Going off of what you said, Joey, with preparing for that conversation and having one or two things you wanna bring up.

Journal and talk about it to yourself. Right. And it's hard, but maybe you could have that conversation with yourself in a mirror. Right? Try, try to work through those things. If you have a trusted confidant that you can be like, can I just try having this conversation with you between work through some of my fears of, I expect it could go this badly.

Okay. What does badly mean? Can you quantify it and like, see what that could be good point. Yeah. And do it with someone that you trust because the word divorce is scary because of all the trauma you've gone through, it's such an emotional upheaval. Um, and so if you're able to process that with someone that's, um, has that trust with you.

And again, if it's not your parents, it's not a bad thing. Mm-hmm, right. To be able to talk about it and, and it's not to normalize it, but it's you being able to not feel so triggered by it, that you now feel back in control of it instead of terrified and hurt and all those nasty emotions that come up that you are like, this is not me.

I don't know what to do, but mm. It's a product of it. It is reality of it. Mm-hmm but that doesn't mean you can't change it. Mm-hmm that's good. Anything dad? Yeah, one really quick thing I would recommend. Um, I went on a retreat recently and we wrote out our story of divorce and you can use the word divorce as said many times on paper, as you want.

So start with the very beginning day one. Maybe it's the day you were born, maybe it's the day your parents met, whatever you want it to be. Write out the whole story and take your time, take your time and use that word as many times as you want. Cuz sometimes putting it from your head to paper. You don't have to give it to anybody.

I mean, it can be a journal entry. It can be whatever you want it to be, but writing it out in detail and use that word divorce and put it on paper because that's what it is. And if you can't say it out loud to your father or your mother. you can write it down. That's really very helpful. Yeah, no, that's really good.

We, um, Adam Young runs the podcast, the place we find ourselves great podcast. He has an exercise in there about writing your circle. We'll link to that, um, in this gen. So you guys can, it literally guides you step by step. So I found that helpful as too, and we've had people go through that exercise, so really good.

And on that point of like the word divorce, it's like, what are you afraid of? Maybe you're afraid of the way mom or dad will react. So maybe dig into that a little bit. Um, and then finally, when you talk about like building a better relationship with your dad, um, just going back to something I said before, so I.

Again, I wouldn't start by talking about like heavy topics, but start with maybe common interests. So there's really two ways. If you kinda break it down, there's two ways that you grow an intimacy with someone. One is through conversations and two is through experiences. Like if you think about that's the way you bond with another person, same thing applies to your parents, not just like a friendship or a romantic relationship.

So conversations and experiences. So the, you know, middle ground for that is things you both enjoy. So talk about things you both enjoy. Talk about experiences. I would say experiences are the best way to start with someone who's kind of emotionally distant, cuz those conversations can often stay at the surface level.

I know that often with my parents, they just like, don't go very deep, which is unfortunate. And so they need a little bit of prodding to, to go a bit deeper, but start with those experiences, do things you enjoy together. That could be really simple. It could be like mini golfing together. It could be like you.

Uh, camping or kayaking or whatever you guys like to do, uh, do those sorts of things and just go slowly and try to, you know, again, set the stage if possible, when the time comes, where you would open up about bigger things when it comes to a dad dads. Aren't great. I'm a dad now. So could say this, um, dads can often be really, um, not great with talking about emotions.

So you might need to kind of set the stage and open the door for that. Dads have emotion or men in general should just say this. Doesn't just apply to dads. We have emotions, but we're often not as good about expressing them and putting them into words as maybe women are. And so, um, if that's the case, you might need to kind of pull that out of him gently, and it's not your job to like, teach him how to do that, but you can, you know, prompt him so to speak.

Um, it's not really supposed to be that way, but, uh, sadly it is that way for people like us, especially who come from broken families or wonder both parents can often be kind of emotionally distant. So with that, we're gonna move on to the next question. And then, uh, yeah, so this question is dealing with your anger and navigating, uh, your dysfunctional family.

So the background is my parents got a divorce when I was about four and a half years old at the time. It was my mom, my dad, my sister and me. I've had a lot of anger, uh, issues from them, uh, from it. And now my sister who hated my dad now lives with him. Um, my stepmom and my little step sister. So the biggest part is my dad is not my sister's real dad.

uh, her biological dad was with my mom before my, uh, before she met my dad, my sister dismissed all of the childhood trauma that my dad caused. Now. She won't talk to anyone in my mom's family. When it comes to me, my dad's side, won't let me talk to, to them or my sisters, which is really hard for me. I'm lost.

And I don't know where to go from here. I'm looking for your advice. Thank you for letting me ask you for help. So the questions are, how do I deal with my anger towards my parents and how do I navigate the dysfunction in my extended family? So I can talk with my sisters, Alexandra. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I wanna tell you how sorry I am.

That sounds like a very difficult situation you are seen and you are heard. I think it's totally normal in most everyone. I think that is a child of divorce in any capacity, whether it's really messy or new or old can feel very angry. I know I did. And I still do at times. So just know that this is very common and that this may come and go.

I would, I would suggest it's hard with extended family and it's hard when you're, when it's your sister and I don't know how close you are, but, um, me and my sister are very close. And so I can only imagine it's very difficult for you, but I would, I would suggest really leaning into, I, I know part of it is friendships at Kendra and I are like sisters in this.

And so I think if you can find a really validated friend to really confide in, it really does help. And it really does make a difference in, in the situation. Friends become like family. I. I can't guarantee. I can't promise you that your sister or your extended family will ever come around and I'm certainly not suggesting that you replace them, but I am suggesting that you find some support and some friends who have maybe gone through this because our siblings can sometimes be the best of our friends.

They can sometimes be our best friends and so finding good friendships. And I also would suggest, you know, really building community around this. So restored has a great community of listeners. I would suggest yeah. Finding somebody who is maybe able to, to see and hear you in this way. Good stuff. Kendra, do you have anything to add to that?

In addition to having a support system is Alexandra was saying in that community, whether it's through restored or some someplace else that you found that. healthy coping mechanisms. I think there's so many times that we give ourselves excuses for poor behavior because we've been hurt and that's not a healthy way to have compassion for yourself.

Right. I do wanna acknowledge that. It sucks. And I'm so sorry that you are now part of this club that no one wants to be a part of. Yeah. And so I found for me, there's a lot of different ways I could have turned and I have turned cuz I'm by no means perfect. And for me, a lot of times it's emotionally with dries or with drinking and partying different ways where I feel.

loved or have like a lift in the moment. But I know for a fact I feel worse when it's all done. Mm-hmm right. And so that's what I mean about naming them. I'm not saying that a relationship in and of itself is bad. I'm not saying drinking in and of itself is bad. I'm not saying going out with friends in and of itself is bad.

Mm-hmm but can you name like those really healthy ones that when you're done? Okay. I actually feel like a MOCU better. Mm-hmm right. Um, for a moment you're able to forget for me it's weightlifting or hiking. It's finally, when things get quiet and I can push myself and deal with anger and frustration, resentment hurt tears and like a tree doesn't care.

If I cry right. A tree doesn't care. What I'm doing. And so I found that has been so healing for me to do that. Also another one for me is studying, learning something new. Hmm. Challenging myself in a way. And then tracking that progress of like, oh my gosh, I've changed. And then I look back and I've also emotionally changed, right?

When you're pushing yourself in one area, the rest of you is didn't catch up in a way. Yeah, no, really. Yeah, there there's so much in there. I, I would say touching on like the anger piece, you know, like we've said, it's so normal to feel anger. Um, anger is really just an emotion, an emotional response to a real or perceived injustice and divorce, your family breaking apart.

Your relative's not letting you see your siblings. Like that's certainly an injustice. It's not something you're supposed to go through. It's not something that's easy to go through. It's not, it's not a good thing. And so I I'm so sorry again, what you've been through and your anger just makes so much sense.

What I would say I I've dealt with anger. Anger is, uh, one of those things that kind of has been a struggle for me at different times. A couple things I've learned one don't hold it inside. If you hold it inside, it will get bigger and more difficult to deal with. So like Kendra was saying, you can get it out in one of those ways.

Um, she said naming it. That's really good. Another way to say it, you know, is putting it into words. So whether that's writing or speaking to someone or just recording a voice memo, honestly, that sounds silly, but that can be helpful. Just get it out of your chest. And that can kind of dissipate the anger almost like taking the air out of a balloon, right?

Because again, when anger's just inside of us, it festers and it grows and it gets big. And then often what happens is it will just come out of nowhere in a conversation, in a relationship and you might not even recognize yourself in those situations. Um, so. Yeah, go ahead. And as you go through feeling these emotions, what really helped me and I highly recommend for everyone was actually having a therapist because otherwise I get stuck.

It's like, I, I sit in it and then I dunno what to do with it. And I find that it confessor, even though I'm like, oh, look at it. I learned like a new skill today, but I went after it and like had coffee with that friend who gives me so life. And I went for a hike. The counselor is trained to help guide you and navigate these things right.

And to help you come up with emotional coping mechanisms and just new ways of mapping out and naming emotions, um, and to guide you through it, all right, you, you are not alone in this. There's so many resources to help. Um, I have found that the way I can most actively get after it was when I had someone who was trained in this right.

Trained in marriage and family therapy. Um, I can't remember their exact word. I'm trying to think of internal family systems, internal family systems. Oh my goodness. It. Revolutionized my past two years, um, seeing that therapist that knows that in particular, because I feel so seen and understood, and I feel I am no longer powerless.

Hmm. So good. Dr. Gary Chapman, he's the one who wrote the five love languages. He also has another book called anger, taming, a powerful emotion. So in dealing with my own anger, I've looked into I've, you know, read this book. And one of the frameworks he offers and is just this five step process that you can use to deal with your anger.

So it's been helpful for me. I just wanna offer it to you in case it would be helpful as well. And this is Logan, by the way, asked this question. So Logan, the first step is consciously acknowledge. To yourself that you are angry. So it sounds so silly. It sounds so simple, but just even just saying like, okay, I feel angry right now to yourself.

Like that's really powerful. Again, it can kind of take some of the, some of the energy or some of the, um, anger kind of out of the situation, just by acknowledging that you are angry. Next number two is restrain your immediate response. So you might wanna say something nasty or do something that would kind of get back at that person.

Restrain that that's not a very popular word in our world these days. Like that self denial, like not acting on what you wanna do, but it can be so helpful. So that's step number two. And then three is locate the focus of your anger. So often we get angry about something, but that's not the real issue.

There's something deeper. So try to like really recognize what you're angry about. And so it could be like, I don't know, a police officer giving you a ticket for, you know, going a little bit over the speed limit and you just get like, super upset about that obviously, but a little bit disproportionately upset about it and you might be realizing, well, you know, maybe someone in your life just wasn't really fair with you and that reminded you.

That dis you know, that imbalance in your life and it made you extremely angry. Getting a ticket from a cop is definitely upsetting. But, um, but you can see what I'm saying there, there's often something beneath the surface. You need to kind of recognize that, locate that, and then analyze your options.

That's number four, he says, analyze your options. So you see, okay, how can I respond? You always want your response to not be a reaction, but really a thoughtful reply or response to the situation. And that may, by doing that, you. Much less, you'll be much less likely to regret your actions. And you'll normally you you'll just build like this ability to have mastery over yourself by acting, not just by what you feel by why by what is right in that situation.

And then step number five is take constructive action. So it's basically after you analyze your options, choose one of those options and act on it. And, uh, and that can be a really helpful. So again, I'll listen quickly consciously acknowledge to yourself that you are angry, uh, restraint, your immediate response, locate the focus of your anger, analyze your options.

Take constructive action, Kendra, anything bad about making other people upset when it comes to I have stuff about that. Yeah. Yeah. When it comes to like your relatives. So on one end, I, I don't know if this is possible in your situation, you know, it's, we're, we're, um, answering these questions with somewhat limited information, but one question is, do you need to really deal with them?

Can you go directly to your sister, for example, who you wanna build a relationship with? Like, why do you, why do your relatives, it sounds like this is extended family. That's causing all this drama. Why do they need to be involved in the relationship? So maybe ask that question, like, can you just have a relationship with your sister and kind of let them deal with their own issues and you don't really need to get into that.

That that's one option, but maybe they are putting like legitimate barriers up aside from just their opinion that you have to get through. If that's the case one tactic here, which is not an easy tactic. So I know probably most people listening won't do this, but if there's one person who's maybe causing a lot of this tension and a lot of the barriers, if it's good and healthy and safe for you, of course.

Confront them about it a again, it will take time to build up to this, but if you can just be like, Hey, you know, I know you have real issues with me, you know, talking to my sisters, like, why is that? And trying to understand kind of where they're coming from now, again, if they're just gonna abuse you, or there's a situation where it's just like super unhealthy, don't do that.

That's not what I'm recommending, but, but if you can talk to them about it and just try to kind of see what they're, where they're coming from, cuz what it often might be is they're being really unreasonable. And if you show them that, you know, you're just, you just want a relationship with your sister.

Like there's something so good. And again, place, try to place them in your shoes. Just be like, Hey, how would you feel if you know, and don't say this in an antagonizing way, but just say, you know, Hey, how would you feel if you know, you couldn't talk to your sibling? Like, how would that, how would that feel?

How, how would you take that? That can be really helpful thing to, to offer to them because then they put themselves in your shoes and they realize, oh yeah, you know, that would be really difficult. I, I wouldn't like that at all. And so that's just one thing that you can do, but not an easy situation at all.

And I'm really sorry you're going through it. Um, I know when your family breaks apart, there's all sorts of drama and it usually does involve, uh, relatives who often just take the side of one parent. And so if you give the appearance of maybe citing with that opposing parent, that can really make you a target, an enemy, so to speak to those relatives and it can be really, really difficult to deal with.

And there might not be a great resolution, at least in the short term, unfortunately. So I'm sorry to. Can I give that tough love, but that is a reality at times I hate that there are sides. When we had everything happen with my dad's family, they saw my dad is a large extended family. Right. I'm talking like he is eight siblings, like 30 plus first cousins, my grandparents, like it's massive.

And we got together with them all of the time they circled the wagons because they saw that their brother was hurting. Right. Yeah. So that they're protective. They, they get so protective. So they circled the wagons. It just made no sense why I was on the outside or my mom was public enemy number one, or my sisters didn't belong.

It made no sense to me. Yeah. And so during, at that time I could not process. I tried not fathom it whatsoever and I lost all relationships with them because there were so many hoops that had to jump through or this or that after a lot of work on myself where I know I can. Have those difficult conversations without just bursting into tears or feeling so angry.

I just like turn red and I have a problem of when I'm frustrated, I cry and I'm like, oh, that's a weakness. Like it, I, I was not at a point to do that. Right. Yeah. Versus now, I mean, it's been 14 years. They seem a lot less scary one cuz the distance, but two I'm older. Right? Sure. And navigating the dysfunction with them, especially with like your little sister, right.

Both like your step sister and all those. Would we be to even just ask again, go directly to either the sisters or parents, if you can. And just say my desire is to have a relationship with my sister. Hmm. What do you recommend? I do. How can I do that? Mm-hmm right. Maybe they have certain house rules of like, you can't take her out anywhere, but like, great.

Can I grab some Chipotle? And we sit in the backyard and just chat and ask her how school's going. Find some different ways where there, there can be a compromise on location or activity or what have you. But the ultimate goal is like, you both agree. A relationship is good and that's what we want. Mm.

Again, with more healing that happened, I was starting to, able to, I was starting to be able to have conversations with the extended family and some went well, some didn't . I remember very distinctively. I was at church, you know, I don't know, six years ago. And I turned around and my cousin was sitting directly behind me.

Hmm. I was triggered obviously, but it was like almost shocked because I'd been almost 60 years since we had seen each other. Was I with too? No, you weren't. No. Okay. I thought there was a situation where I think you recognized the FA anyway, keep going. Oh man. I probably called you up right afterwards. I was like, oh my gosh.

And. It was so scary cuz I didn't know how he would respond. I didn't know anything. He was 16. I was 14 right after church. He looked at me, um, it was a evening service or, and mass and he's like, do you wanna grab a drink? So we did. I was sweating. I was so nervous guys. And we went and got a drink and we sat and we chatted.

And at first it was, you know, what are you doing? It's been six years. Turns out we lived within minutes of each other. We worked in the same area. Right? Wow. All in the same, um, city area of realizing we had been passing each other, going to the same church without even just for whatever reason, this is when destiny wanted to line everything out.

Wow. And then we got past that. There was an awkward silence and we both knew, we were like, all right, you gotta, you gotta talk about the elephant in the room, but obviously we're a lot more mature now. And he was just like, Hey, what happened? Oh, wow. And I found out he knew nothing of what happened. Right. I had spoken previously about some things and, um, about like my uncles being really hard on me and things like that.

He, he said I was 16. I was a boy. I was focused on the hot, I didn't know any of the stuff was happening. Yeah. Like I'm really sorry. Yeah. And I even told him, I know that our family was taught that blood is thicker than water. I know we were taught and brought up with these values and I know that's how our parents think.

Right. Mm-hmm cause our parents are siblings and I see that they circled the wagons. I just don't get why, like my sisters, my mom and I were all like left to hang out to dry. Right. Mm. It didn't make any sense. How come no one talked to me about it. Yeah. And so we were able to have a conversation, um, and connect on like a natural law level or what do we, what do we wish our parents had kind of done in a, in a very gentle and loving.

We were both skitish obviously, but I found so. Much healing from that conversation of just, I don't feel I'd be so scared to encounter a relative again, mm-hmm and I actually have a desire now versus before it was an absolute pushing away keeping at arms arms length, because it was so messy. I felt so hurt and unseen and seen and painted as an enemy.

It is messy. It is not easy. And I would encourage one on one, if you feel so inclined to speak to the extended family, um, good point do not get into a number situation, cuz you are ready, will feel hurt and stared and you're more likely to lash out then and do things you might regret rather than feeling more in control and safe in a situation.

Yeah. And. People rarely change their mind in groups. I think there's research about that. Like if you try to persuade someone in like a group or other people are watching, it's like not gonna happen. Mm-hmm so yeah, one on one that's really wise. And, uh, what Alexandra said before too, or maybe you said, sorry, if I'm misremembering, um, ask questions, like ask good questions.

That's like really an important tactic to use, as opposed to just like making statements that might come across as like accusatory, like you're accusing them of doing something wrong, even if they maybe did do something wrong, um, that that's like a more tactful, uh, way to go about it. So going back to one of the other questions though, you wanted to add a few things.

Um, oh yeah. So, yeah. Please go ahead. Yeah. Going off of what you said with Joey in terms of building a relationship through conversation and activities, right. Especially with a father, um, there are different levels of a relationship. So the easiest way is chit chat relationships, right? where it's, you can talk about something.

You might talk about something very Inna about what happened at work that day, but you're chatting. Mm-hmm I have not been there for a long time with my dad. I don't wanna chat. I don't want him to know anything. Yeah. Right. And that's okay. A second level, if you will, will be as you chat and you open up more like layers of an onion, right.

Would be to start doing more activities and spending a longer period of time together. Right. Learning those different ways. If you're comfortable with that, right. That's a way that it relationship can deepen. And then like, I would say a third level are those that are, that know, like your heart of hearts and it's hard and it sucks that your parents aren't there and you so desire them to be there.

and there's so many it's it's backwards, right? There's so many ways that you wanted him to fulfill emotional needs or to be there for you as a father. And he hasn't been. And how do you now navigate that when like your deep desire is let's get right to it. I think I might feel safe. I might not mm-hmm um, and instead of think of it as an incremental things who knows what the timeline is, that depends on both of you guys.

It takes two to have a relationship. Maybe he's ready. Maybe he's not, maybe you are, or not might depend on the season or the day mm-hmm . And so sometimes I like to think of different goals. It's what I'm doing right now with my therapist. I want a goal to be where I have a phone call with my dad. Mm-hmm why a phone call.

You can hang up or say you're busy or gotta go. So, sorry. Right. There's an easy way to end it. Yeah. Where it doesn't feel so scary. You won't get cornered either, right. Or you don't feel as if, oh, I have to. You have three hours of my time now. Right? It's it's simple to think of like 15 minute phone call, um, different things like that.

Mm-hmm to work towards that. I am thinking of ways that I feel okay to text him. I have not told him unless he listens to this that my goal is to have a phone conversation with him. That is something that, you know, I've been working on with my therapist and it could happen in a year, could happen in five.

It really depends. Right. There is. We're not setting a timeline to it as much as what are steps we can take to incrementally get there. Mm-hmm we just had father's day. I had no problem this year, sending him a happy father's day text. And I truly meant it. Not just, oh, I know I have to send it, but it brought up so many things and I was like, oh my gosh, this is a step.

This is a huge win. Good for you. Um, of I'm okay with this. Yeah. And I, and I, I recognize him as a father and I desire to have a deep relationship with him and it may or may not happen, but I know that desire is dead. I know that I love him and that I, I can tell him I'm thinking about him today. Nice. And it was a way that I knew I could give with, even if, for whatever reason he might have had a bad reaction to it, that I was going to be okay with whatever the reaction was.

Mm-hmm I didn't prepare myself for the first per se, but he still surprised me. He was very kind about it. That's awesome. And I was like, thanks for reaching out. I was thinking about you today too. You know, love you. And I was like, guess what? We sent two texts. And that was a huge win for like my whole year.

That's awesome. Right. To really set that up there probably relieving, super relieving. And maybe within five years, I'll see him. I don't know, another baby steps, baby steps. Another thing that I do with my dad. Joey's what you said about common interests. I don't talk about everything in my life with him.

What I do talk about is stuff that I know he likes. Right? It's a safer topic then. Sure. We're not bringing in, um, the fact that I haven't seen him forever. We're not bringing in family or this or that. It's, we're not even like my sisters, right. It's very simple. We talk about sports. We talk about hunting and we talk about nature because nice in reflecting on different ways.

My father has impacted me, even if I didn't feel like he was emotionally there. I know dads in a lot of ways give through access service, or sometimes with quality time. Right? There's different ways. Love languages. Sure. You know, we're always referencing Gary Chapman. um, my dad really cultivated in me a love for nature and for quiet.

And I always found that with him every fall, during the hunting season or siding in the rifles or things like that. Mm-hmm . And so those have been the biggest ways of me feeling comfortable talking with him as well as knowing a way that it's like, he probably feels comfortable with it too. Yeah. It's something he knows and he loves it's familiar.

Exactly. So it's easier to connect there. And with that frequency may happen right. At different intervals and you start to progress to a potentially deeper relat. Love that. And I love the phone call tactic, cuz yeah, it's a little bit safer and you don't need to do FaceTime or anything like that. You can just do a phone call and um, one tactic that might help.

I've done this at times, um, in conversations where I need to like. Know that there's a boundary is scheduling it against something where it's like a hard stop where it's like, okay, like literally have to go meet this person. Or I have to go do this thing. Like, I, I don't, I can't extend it at all. That can be a kind of a safe way for you to say, okay, I have 20 minutes, I have 15 minutes.

I have 30 minutes to talk and then that's it. Like, it's not gonna be dragged into a, an hour long or a, you know, hour and a half long conversation. So that could be good when it comes back, going back to relatives. So Logan, you know, going back to your question about, yeah, just having that tension, that drama in your family.

One of the saddest things for me, when my parents separated and later divorced was that my relationship with my cousins was like really damaged. And I love my cousins. Like I really do. We've been able to kind of keep a relationship, but I've noticed that it. It did, it was affected. And even my aunts and uncles, you know, that one was a little bit more directly affected.

So it is just really sad that that happens. And hopefully in time, you know, we can start rebuilding those relationships, but it is just a sad reality that I wanted to bring attention to. Um, two final questions. So Nadia asked, how do I buy your book? So what she's talking about is, um, I wrote a book called it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce.

You might have heard me talk about this in the podcast before, but the book features 33 question and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by teens and young adults who come from broken families. So they're really quick. Um, usually like, Two three page answer, uh, to these really pressing questions that we have.

And so if you wanna learn more about that, learn about the, you know, what questions we, I answer in that book. You just go to restored ministry.com/books. Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. You can get the first chapters for free. If you wanna sample the book or you can click on the buy now button to purchase the whole book on Amazon.

So, Nadia, I hope that helps. Thanks so much for asking. Uh, if you guys have enjoyed the advice in this conversation, there's a lot more in that book. The next question is from Gloriana, um, great name by the way. Gloriana um, you said that. Uh, this is about speaking. So you said I'm a college student. She said, hi, Joey, I'm a college student and I'm working on a project discussing children of divorce and the K through 12 is school system.

So front of you, um, you know, not in the us, we're talking about, um, primary school and secondary school. I would love to bring you into speak. I would also love to chat about my project. Thank you so much. So we have talked, we've done a few meetings, um, but I wanted to answer this question for anyone else who's answering.

So how do I book a talk? She asked how much, um, is it to book a talk? So again, thank too much for asking. So book a talk. So we do speaking engagements at schools at churches, at events at universities, you can just go to ReSTOR ministry.com/speaking, ReSTOR ministry.com/speaking. Uh, at this point there's two main talks that I give in the future role of additional personalities and people who give talks.

The first one is what I wish someone told me when my parents divorced. So what I wish someone told me when my parents' divorced is, is really practical advice on how to cope in healthy ways. Instead of unhealthy ways, some really simple tactics that young people can use to heal from that trauma they've been through.

And then advice on how to build healthy relationships, not just stuff that I've made up, but really what research says, what people who've done it have to say, that's the first talk, the second talk. And that's more related to people who just come from broken families. The second talk is more general can apply to people who come from broken families.

Certainly. But also people who don't and that's titled seven tips to build a thriving and divorce proof marriage. So again, it's not me just making this up, I'm trying to live this out, but it's something, um, so the, the, the content in that talk is built on really practical advice from research. So psychological research is referenced a lot time tested couples.

So couples that, you know, I've been witnessed or I've been able to witness and like study so to speak and just learn from, and then finally, wisdom from Christianity. Christianity is so much to say about building like really healthy, beautiful relationship. So again, that's seven tips to build a thriving and divorce proof marriage.

So. If you're a leader at a school university church conference, then these talks are perfect for your audience. I mean, we'd love to partner with you. We've worked with focus. FCAN university of Steubenville Ave, Maria university, the diocese of San Diego, the archdiocese of San Francisco and the archdiocese of Denver.

Just to mention a few, we've been honored to serve them. Um, when it comes to pricing, the pricing will go up. But right now I can say it's a fraction of the cost of what other speakers. Charge. So most speakers charge anywhere from 1500 to $5,000 for a talk. I know that might sound ridiculous if you're not familiar with this world.

Uh, but that's the reality of it. We charge a fraction of that at this recording. It's $500 for a talk plus travel fees, but again, that's gonna go up in the future. Um, so just get in touch as soon as you can. If you'd like to schedule something, uh, for your venue, again, go to restored ministry.com/speaking, and then you can click on the book, a talk button, fill out the form, and that will begin the process.

So with that, thank you guys so much for listening. Thank you guys for being here. Both Kendra and Alexandra. Uh, Alexandra had to head out a little bit early. So if you were wondering, where did Alexandra go? She had to head out, but I'm honored to have you Kendra. And I know Alexandra, you're listening to this.

Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your wisdom. You guys are both, uh, such incredible people. Who've. Just grown healed so much. So I'm honored to have you on the show. Thank you so much. Submit more questions. We'll do another round table. Yeah, we're excited. I'll tell you about that in the outro.

Thank you guys.

If you'd like to contact Alexandra, you can find your email and social handles in the show notes. As you saw in this episode, we're accepting questions for the show. You can submit your questions and we'll answer them on the ReSTOR podcast. Again, it will be me or my guests or all of us together. And you can ask anything you want, maybe you feel stuck or you're unsure how to handle the pain or the challenges from your parents' breakup.

Maybe you're unsure of how to begin or continue healing, or maybe you're someone who loves or leads someone who's going through their parents' divorce or separation, or maybe just really dysfunctional marriage. And you need to know how do I help them, whatever your question we wanna help, we will give you really specific and practical answers right here on the show.

How do you do it? Just go to ReSTOR ministry.com/ask again, restored ministry.com/ask you, fill out the form with your question. You can do that anonymously or not. And then as we're able, we'll answer your question on the show. Again, that's restored ministry.com/ask, or you can just click the link in the show notes.

The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 70. Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful. Feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them, always remember you are not alone.

We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#074: Why Children of Divorce Learn to Act Like Chameleons | Craig Soto II

Often, people from broken families become very attuned to the needs of others, especially our parents and siblings. We become skilled at being what people want us to be. In the end, we often lose ourselves and our ability to articulate what we need and want.

In this episode, we discuss that problem as well as:

• How normal was strange and strange was normal for our guest growing up

• Why he became motivated to break the generational cycle of divorce in his family

• How he felt like burden in his relationships, which made him feel the need to earn love and constantly prevent it from ending any moment

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• Craig Soto II

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

So often people like us who come from broken families become very attuned to the needs of others, especially our parents and our siblings who become skilled at being what people want us to be. And in the end we often lose ourselves in our ability to articulate what we need and what we want. In this episode, we discussed that problem as well as how normal was strange and strange was normal for my guests.

Growing up, we talk about how he became motivated to break the cycle of divorce in his family that extends through generation. He shares, uh, the area of his life, where he struggled the most as a child of divorce. He talks about three things that helped him heal the most, including a really beautiful, married couple.

And he explains how he felt like a burden in his relationships, which made him feel the need to earn love and constantly prevent those relationships from ending at any moment. This is such a good and insightful episode. So keep listening,

welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 74. My guest today is Craig Soto. Second Craig is, uh, Colorado native. He grew up in Colorado Springs before moving to golden, Colorado for college at the Colorado school of mines there, he received a degree in computer science and now works in the tech industry as a development manager.

After many years of working through the symptoms stemming from his parents' divorce, it wasn't until the past couple of years that he began focusing specifically on healing, the wounds that came from the divorce after hearing an early episode from this podcast for the last year, he's been volunteering to help other people who come from broken families with life, giving wounds, he's helped with the in person and online retreats, as well as helping to start a support group for people who have attended the retreat in Denver.

Craig also loves to host movie nights at his apartment play whiffle ball and watch hockey. He's a big Colorado avalanche fan, actually. And so without further to do here's my conversation with Craig soda. The second

Craig is great to be with you here. Thanks for coming on the show. Absolutely. No, thanks for having me, Joe. I appreciate it. You've been on the list to come on the show for a long time, so I'm glad we, uh, finally got to make this a reality. Um, I was curious about your name. Are you a junior? Uh, it's, it's funny.

Uh, so people ask me, you know, because I'm Craig, so the second, uh, I'm named after my dad and, uh, a lot of people, they, you know, they say, well, or is this supposed to be junior? And I say, actually on my birth certificate actually says the second. So technically I am named Craig. So the second. But, uh, even with that, like I looked up like rules for it and stuff.

And people always give some really goofy stuff, but when, whenever they kinda gimme too much crap, I always tell 'em we don't have John Paul Jr. We have John Paul second. So yeah. I've, I've always wanted to ask you that. So, no, that, that's interesting about the birth certifi goal. I know we're gonna be talking about a little bit of heavier topic than, uh, your name and, uh, I'd like to go to that now, if that's okay.

I'm curious, you know, what happened in your family when your parents separated and divorced and how old were you? Yeah, so, um, I was around like five or six when my parents divorced. Um, it was something that. Like, I don't remember a whole lot of like going through the divorce. I don't remember ever going to like court or anything.

You know, the, the only thing that I I do remember is just, you know, my parents not being together. Uh, and so, you know, just growing up, you know, my dad never, I never remember my dad like living at our house, but one of the really cool things that I, I really kind of look back on and just kind of realize is that, you know, my dad, you know, was, was, was still there.

You know, even though my parents divorced, you know, he was still involved in our lives, you know, you look back and can be kind of weird, you know, too, cuz sometimes my dad would come over in the morning to get us dress for school, you know? And it's just like, you know, but, but dad doesn't live here. You know, he, he lives somewhere else.

Right. And so it, you know, you kinda look at some of those things and it's strange, but at the same time, I, I really appreciate my dad's, uh, involvement in our lives. Even though my parents still divorce. Okay. No, that makes so much sense. And, uh, that probably was confusing to the younger, you though. I, I totally hear what you're saying.

Like that was a good thing that he made the effort to be present in your life, as opposed to what happens with some dads or moms too. They just kind of are completely, um, out of the picture. So, so no, I totally hear you on that, but what was that pretty confusing? Would you say for a five, six year old or I guess for the years I followed to, yeah.

You know, I, I think, uh, for me, like growing up, I, I don't know if I found it to be. Really confusing because for me that's just how it was. Um, you know, and, and so really, if anything, I, I found, you know, when both the parents were there, I felt like that was more strange than, than, you know, having, you know, one parent, you know?

And so it was kind of the opposite, you know, the normal was strange to me while the, the abnormal was, was normal. So, um, but you know, one of the, like, even some of the things that came from that though was, you know, like being able to like understand and how to, how to do things, right. There's a lot of times, you know, growing up that, you know, with my, with my family, like we really just, we really kind of just lived with a lot of it.

We lived with the, the strange. You know, there's even things where, uh, a lot of times I just kinda had it figured out on my own, you know, my, I have an older sister and so, you know, when, when my parents divorced, uh, my dad was working, my mom ended up taking up two jobs and stuff and, and she, you know, she was working a long time.

So, you know, for me, my sister is just us. And so, you know, um, for, for us, we were just in the home, you know, we weren't really kind of able to go outside a whole lot. And, uh, you know, it was just, it was just us kind of taking care of ourselves, you know, over, over time, you know, I really came to see like, that's, that's not normal, you know?

And so as I got older and I started to look back on those things, that's when I guess it really started to change for me to really see. Oh, other people don't do this and everything became strange as time went on. Okay. No, that makes so much sense. I love what you said. You said, um, normal was strange to you and strange was normal.

I think that's like such a great way to put it for so many of us. I think that's just reality. Right. And, and even to the point cracker, like where I've seen people almost not even recognize like completely miss the fact that something maybe was broken or kind of messed up in their family, because it was just like, well, this is just the way it's always been.

Yeah. It's like, it's like, you know, if you wore a hat all your life and then you took it off one day, it would be like, well, it's kind of strange to not wear a hat. It's like that second nature. And so. Yeah, I think, uh, one of the challenges I know we face in this nonprofit in this ministry is that, um, we're trying to show people that, you know, a lot of the struggles that they deal with today, the pain, the problems are intimately connected to the breakdown of their family, of their parents' marriage and their family.

But a lot of people like think a lot of times that their struggles are random and they certainly don't connect it to their family of origin, which is sad because I think that's a big barrier to healing and growth. And so, like you said, though, we, we kind of need to overcome that thinking that this is normal because in a lot of ways, it wasn't.

Yeah. And, and one of the things that I've. Really come to see is, you know, I I've been to counseling myself since, uh, what, maybe 2014, there's been like what? This is my fifth time around, you know, going to counseling. And every time I've gone, you know, there was something I was trying to focus on working on.

Right. Hey, there's this behavior, that's just that that's not healthy. I wanna work on that. I, I, I kind of grow in those areas, but it wasn't really until I think, you know, about January last year, um, that I had some stuff kind of going on in my life and it really just kind of really shook me up. And, and I really started to see like, Hey, there, there's something deeper here.

And, and it wasn't until then that I, that I actually started to what, what I realized. That there's that, that deeper wound that's there coming from my parents' divorce. Every, every time I went before to counseling was really treating, you know, a symptom then, then it was like, you know, again, this past year when I really started to see like, okay, what's the root cause of all that.

And not that, you know, like, you know, like I'm, I'm broken or, you know, I'm unworthy or, or any of these things, but it's just like, you know, where do, where does all these thoughts come, come from? Where do all these behaviors come from? And that's where I really started to see and, and recognize, Hey, that's probably coming from my parents' divorce.

And for me, that's where I've been really motivated over the past. Like that's a year and a half, you know, to really start to see like, okay, this is something that's big, it's impacting my. And, and I want to start to get, get better. I wanted to heal these things. That's beautiful, man. And no, you're already doing a lot even to help other people, which I admire so much, going back to the question of kind of what went down in your family as much as you're comfortable sharing.

I was just wondering if there was more you wanted to add to kind of that whole dynamic and everything that led up to the brokenness, uh, in your family. Yeah. One, one of the things that, um, I've spent a lot of time kind of trying to retrace, you know, like just like my family history, where did we come from?

What's our life like, and some of the things in, in really doing that, I've come to see that, you know, my parents' divorce was not new for my family. It was not something that was shocking. But in fact it was kind of the opposite. It was, it was normal. And what I mean by that is I kind of started to realize like, wow, my, my parents, and even my grandparents' generation really saw a lot of divorce within the family.

and, um, and so I, I really look at this as something that is, is pretty generational. And I think, you know, just a lot of it has just a just deal with, you know, just brokenness within it, you know, just how divorce became more and more common over times, even when it was unpopular, you know, my grandparents, you know, they had divorce in their life.

And so, you know, for, for my family, this was something that was, you know, again, something that happens over time. And so that was something that was eye opening to me, just to really see like again, you know, even more motivation for me. It's like, Hey, if, if I don't get some of this stuff fixed, like I know I don't want divorce in my life for my future family.

That's not what I want. And so if I'm going to really work to correct a lot of that, um, I have to put in the work now before, you know, I get married. And even when I get married, I know that there's gonna be stuff that's gonna come up there. And so I'm just trying to get prepared for a lot of that. Um, so that was one thing that really just like stood out to me.

Some, the things that really kind of came up was, uh, something. So, you know, I, I help out with a group called life giving wounds. Uh, it's a great ministry. And, uh, we have a chapter here in Denver and we've had a number of retreats and things like that. And one of the things that we've talked about in the retreat that was very helpful for me, uh, really eye-opening was, uh, to really see this, this wound of silence, you know, and, and that, I don't know if you guys talked about that here before, but just that wound of silence being like, not being able to talk about, um, you know, the, the things that came up from, from your parents' divorce.

Um, and so for me, really how that played out in a lot of ways was I tell people it's like, no one in my family ever told me, you can't talk about the divorce. You can't talk about what you're frustrated about or what's hurting you or things like that. No one ever said that I couldn't, but on the flip side, no one ever said that I could, you know, no one ever really said, you know, Hey, it's, it's okay to be upset.

It's okay to be angry. Right. And, and, you know, growing up with my older sister, you know, a lot of times they, you know, she was the one who was, she's a couple years older than me. She struggled with a lot more things. I think she felt a lot more of the frustrations and she expects it a lot more vocally than I did.

But for me, you know, I looked at my sister and I said like, well, everyone's getting upset because of what she's doing. Well, let's just not do that. Right. So for me, I bottle up a lot of, you know, the, the frustrations and the pains and the fears and, you know, and, and I started, you know, I look at kind of like growing up, I, I would say I started taking care of myself really emotionally when I was probably about like seven, eight years old, you know, I, I just kind of realized like, yeah, you know, my dad's, you know, as much as he was there, he's not here on a day to day basis.

I can't really talk to him. My mom, like she was, you know, she's going through divorce. That's very painful. She's working multiple jobs. And, you know, there's parts where she's not present and, you know, she really can't, you know, like, you know, take on more. I don't want to be a burden to my mom. I don't wanna put more on her plate.

So I didn't tell her, you know, anything that I was struggling with and that really, you know, hindered, you know, a growing relationship with my parents. So, you know, when it came to me having problems, I, I really struggle with bringing those problems up, even just in simple ways, like on a test in school, you know, the people I would see other kids or other students go up and talk to the teacher professor and ask 'em questions about the test.

I would look at 'em like, why are you asking questions? Because like, they give you all the information you need. Like, what is, how is this not clear enough for you? Yeah. I started having to think ahead of just like, what do they want? You know, what does the teacher want? What do my parents want. You know, and I had to start thinking, you know, multiple steps ahead, instead of being carefree, you know, I, I had become responsible, you know, I had to take care of myself in a lot of ways, you know, and then it was by the time I was like 16 years old that I, I felt like I became financially independent.

Um, where I was, I had a job, I was working, taking care of myself because in the end, you know, if I needed anything from anyone emotionally, financially, it wasn't gonna be there. And so, you know, no one was gonna be there to help you. I had to do it myself. And you know, that's not to say that my family doesn't love me or care about me.

You know, there's, there's lots of things that they've done, but, you know, coming from my, again, from my parents' divorce, I didn't feel like I could really go to anybody else when I needed help. And, and so like, those were just like some of the. Kind of big wounds that really stuck with me over time. Wow. No, there's so much there.

And you're wise you have so much incentive into this. It's so clear. I, I think what you just articulated is such a common experience. It's just feeling that you're on your own feeling that you, nobody has your back. There's no safety net. Like you just gotta figure life out because no one else is gonna figure it out for you.

Like, I've heard that so often from the people that we work with through restored. And so, um, I don't think you're alone in that, but it is sad that we kind of walk through life like that. And then, you know, in some areas I'm sure that's like a good thing that independence that we have in other areas it's really hard for, you know, for any sort of thriving, such as in relationships like that really reeks havoc in relationship that fierce independence that inability to express like your needs or when you're hurt or.

Try to asking for help. And so, um, that could be pretty devastating to our relationship. And so, so anyway, there's so much there, what you said about the cycle in your family, like the cycle repeating itself, that that's another such common trend that we've seen too. That you're right. It's it is generational on so many levels.

And I think one of the things car that, um, Motivates me is that we can, yeah, like you said, we can break that cycle. Um, it's gonna take a lot of hard work and we're probably gonna struggle more than maybe hopefully our children and their children in relationships and in marriage specifically, it's unfortunate.

I, I hate that reality, but, but I think it's true. Um, but the beauty is that you can grow and heal a lot to where, um, you can have a really good and really beautiful, uh, marriage, really good and really beautiful relationship. So, yeah. Thank you. You're hearing so many good points. I'm sure we could talk forever about this.

Uh, I am, uh, curious if there's anything else you would add about how your parents broken marriage and divorce affected you in addition to what you already shared? One of the big things that, you know, I, I look back on and, and you mentioned relationships. I, I have definitely seen how this has impacted my relationships, whether it's through just regular normal friendships or even dating.

Um, one of the, one of the things that, you know, I, I I've struggled with is just. A natural insecurity with friendships. You know, one of the things that, that I've, I've really struggled with is so, because in a lot of ways I didn't get a different types of affection, you know, from my family. Right. Um, you know, from both my parents being there, they were just so busy, working hard on other things that it just, you know, I, I didn't get a lot of attention, uh, except for when I was achieving.

And, and so, you know, looking at that, it's like, what, what can I do to get that attention? And for me, it was just like, wow, you know, Excel in school. Um, you know, I was in high school, I was in the air force JRTC program. You know, I did a lot of those things where it's like, yes, I can be the one to step up to do those things.

And when I did that and you know, someone told me good job, Hey, this is awesome. You're doing it like that was, you know, special for me. And so, you know, then, you know, even coming from that, when it comes to relationships, That same mentality comes over in a, in a really small way, which is, you know, what do I need to do for my friends in order for them to love me?

Right. It becomes very, almost, I would say contractual. You know, I have to do something in order to get something right. I have to step up and, and provide, you know, some sort of reason for them to like me rather than they just like me for, for me being me. Yeah. And so, uh, you know, there's parts where it becomes exhausting because you know, like I's like every time I, I gotta go and I gotta make sure that I'm a positive person, I am, I, I don't have problems.

You know, everything is totally fine. I have it all in order when, when it's really not. Because if anyone sees the, the bad right, then they're gonna, then I'm gonna become a burden to them. And if I'm a burden to them, they won't wanna talk with me. They want, they won't wanna be my friend. And so I can, I can never be a burden.

And, and that kind of mentality was something that, you know, it's something that I've really struggled with, you know, coming from, again, I think my parents divorce, because that's the last thing that they needed. That's the last thing that I want to do to people. Because in the end, if you're too much of a burden, they leave you.

Hmm. You know, and, and that's where, you know, one of the things I remember, um, I had, uh, I was dating a gal when I was in high school and that was the first time I, I really ever vocalized it, but I was always afraid of, you know, people leaving me. And so, um, you know, in, in that relationship, I just asked her, I said, you know, when is enough gonna be enough?

You know, when, when is it gonna be too much for you? And you're gonna leave me. And, you know, granted there's a high school relationship, but at the same time, like that's been with me for a long time because, you know, in, in all my relationships, that's, that's what I'm afraid of. You know, when am I gonna be too much for somebody?

And then they're gonna say, you know what, it's, it's done. It's over. I don't wanna, I don't wanna talk to you anymore. I don't wanna see you anymore. You know, and I have had some relationships where that has been the case, unfortunately, but I also feel like that's one of those, you know, as we call a self fulfilling prophecy, Right.

I fear it so much. I fear it so much that I make it become true. And, and that's where it's, it's really impacted a lot of the relationships that I've had. Uh, and it's, it's really just been, uh, hard to really overcome that or, or believe that it can change. Um, and, and that's always, I think the struggle there.

Yeah, man, you articulate that so, well, I remember in high school as well, again, it took me a while, just like you said to articulate it, but I felt like a gift that wasn't worth keeping and, and I feared abandonment as well. And I was just, yeah, just terrified of loving relationships altogether, but when it came to yeah.

Dating and all that, I. I could do like the surface level stuff. Like I could kind of like begin a relationship or flirt with a girl or just like do that kind of surface level stuff. But once it started going deeper, I was like, oh, I don't know what I'm doing here. Like, this is so scary. I, I really feel like I'm out of my depth.

Like, I, I can't do this. So I tur certainly experience that as well. What, what, uh, were there any other kind of struggles in your relationships that you saw come out that you would largely relate back to what happened in your family? Yeah, I, I think one of the other, uh, ones that, that really stands out to me is being able to, uh, like receive one of the things that, um, that I I've really seen is that I'm so good at serving mm-hmm , I'm so good at being there for other people.

I'm like, what do you need? What do you need? What do you need? You know? And, and, oh, you need that one thing I already have that cuz I've already been thinking about, right. I'm always prepared. You know, what are those. What are those ways that I can, you know, serve someone that's, that's always my focus, but when it comes for other people and, and really letting them in, you know, there's a lot of reservations to that, you know, kind of similar to, I don't wanna be a burden, but at the same time, even just having the experience of like someone asking you a question, right.

That that was something that was like foreign, like people hearing me out people, you know, really being interested in me, you know, I, I would say it was probably not until I was probably about, you know, 18 or 19 when, when I first really experienced that. Um, I had a really good, uh, you know, friend of mine.

Uh, her name is Sarah and long story, short, beautiful story, you know, but long story short, I ended up living with this family when, uh, Gabriel and Sarah. They were, uh, some focused missionaries on my campus and they had invited me to live with them for the year cuz you know, I, I needed some help, you know, kind of finding a place to live and they offered it to me.

But you know, I, I got, I, I was moving into their house that first day and, and I came in and Sarah just started bombarding with all these questions, you know, what is your favorite? This, what do you like, how do you like this? And, and a lot of it was just like, I don't know, you know, and, and for me it was just hard to really kind of like be able to answer some of those questions because I had never had someone ask me that or, or just, I never felt comfortable answering, like, how do you feel?

You know, how are you doing, you know, what's going on in your life? Right. I gave the answers, I had some stock answers, but when it got past the stock, you know, that's where it really became a struggle. But then even asking, you know, you know, asking for other people to kind of invest into me or, or allowing people to do that.

Um, I had a relationship, uh, I was dating Miguel and, uh, one of the, you know, we're in, in the midst of a relationship and she had just asked me, she's like, you know, how, how can I love you? You know? And, and she said like, you love me incredibly well, but like, how can I do that for you? And when she asked me that question, it was hard.

I couldn't answer it. I actually went to some other friends, Gabriel, her and Sarah and I, I asked him, I said, Hey, how do I respond to her? Like, how do I, you know, how do I tell her that, you know, some, what are things that you've seen that, that I know I'm loved? How do, how can I, you know, convey that to her?

It's a, it's a strange question when someone asks that and you don't know how to answer, you know? And, and, and that's again, where I just, I look at that because I think there's a lot of ways in, in my life that I was neglected and I didn't experience love. So I don't know. Didn't always know how to receive it.

A hundred percent, man, man, I relate so much to this and I. Think part of the reason for this. And I'm curious, what you think is that we become very good at kind of reflecting our environment. Like we become very good at kind of being chameleons, like those little, little reptiles that can change the color of their skin to blend in to their environment.

We just, yeah. We become these people pleasers. We're always kind of on the lookout, like you explained so well, you like, you were kind of looking a certainly trying to see, okay, what do, what does everyone need? Like what can I do to provide that to the point where we kind of just forget ourselves? To an unhealthy extent cause hearing that some people might think, well, that's being selfless well to an extent, but it goes beyond like a healthy realm when we're just kind of almost feel completely lost.

And we don't almost don't even know our own identity or know how to articulate our needs and our wants. And so I think you articulated that so well, but I, I think for me, at least so much at the core of that, inability to, you know, articulate my needs and my wants had to do with yeah, just like always paying attention to the needs and wants of others kind of blending in and being a people pleaser, especially towards my parents, cuz you know, we become very good.

Like I've seen this skill in so many people like us. It's like, we've become very good at just like reading a situation and quickly adapting to like fit into a group of people fit into, you know, or fill the needs of whatever people were around. A lot of times being like our family and our parents. So I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that.

Oh, totally. You know, in, in my family, we, we, you know, there, there's different, sorry. There's different groups of people. Like, you know, when, when I'm with my mom, you know, a lot of the times, and, and this was stuff that was like internalized, right? Uh, a lot of times when I'm around her, it's like I can pick up on her moods and how she's doing, you know?

And I remember, you know, my sister, she was, this was around Easter time. She was, uh, visiting and, and she has a couple of kiddos and, and we were just kind of sitting around talking and stuff like that. And I, I don't remember the context, how it came up, but my sister said something that my mom used to tell us, cuz my mom working two jobs, she, you know, she would get home.

And then, you know, we would try to talk with her or ask questions or we were just playing or something like that. And my mom would just tell us, Hey, it's quiet time. You know? And so it's just like at that point we just had to be. We just had to, you know, sit there and, and not talk or not make noise or things like that.

And that's one of those things, like, I think, you know, it's not always bad to say that, but when that became the norm, right. When mom's home and she's not in a good mood, it's quiet time. Right. And it's just like, you have to be able to start to, you know, I felt like I had to start to read those things, you know, before she said them, I gotta, I gotta beat her to the punch.

If you would, you know, in my dad's household, uh, arguing is a pastime. Right. You know, it's, how can we spin the argument? How can we, you know, we will argue so much about the littlest things. Like, you know, who's the better who's America's football team. The Broncos are the Cowboys, you know, it's the Cowboys.

My, some of my family members say, it's the Broncos they're wrong. But at the same, you know, it just like will argue about anything, but it is just, sometimes it gets in those high, 10 high, you know, tension moments where you're just like, Okay. You know, are we, you know, are we joking now? Are we angry now? You know, we have to, you know, be able to read those emotions a lot more because it can kind of turn south quickly.

It can kind of blow up pretty quickly, you know? And, and, you know, in my family, we, you know, um, we don't do very well with resolutions. And so, you know, for us, it, it's all kind of like jovial. It all has to be kind of like, you know, nice because if things go wrong, then what could really happen is, you know, someone says something, they kind of go too far on a conversation.

And then all of a sudden, you know, someone blows up and they walk away. You know, and then time goes by and then they come back, someone cracks a joke and we're back to normal. It's like, but there's still that tension there because we, we didn't reconcile. We didn't resolve anything. And so, you know, in order to, you know, avoid that, we gotta avoid things three steps ahead and say, like, we don't even want to go to those types of things because we can't, cuz it's upsetting.

Right. We can't talk about the hard topics necessarily unless someone blows up unless it gets, you know, overwhelming or something like that. Mm-hmm so it it's stuff like that where I, you know, I felt like I've had to really kind of read people a lot more. I won't say I'm the best at it, but there's a lot of intuition that comes into it where you, you, you have to be kind of on it all the time.

And uh, and that's something that's just, it's exhausting. It's exhausting. Cuz I just want to go somewhere and just be normal and just like not have to worry about that stuff. Can we just have a normal conversation, you know, it's like, that's, that's what I, I hope for. And I want, and it's, it's hard to get there sometimes.

And it is exhausting. Like that was such a good point. I like almost jumped when you said I like yes, like it, it can be really exhausting. I think that's. Part of the reason why some of us kind of shy away from our families in a lot of ways. It's like, man, like, you know, when you visit mom and you visit dad, it can be exhausting.

And it can just be like, just life sucking. Not because we don't love our parents. We do, but it's just like the patterns that have been established and the way that conversations happen and just like the, the conflict there just can, can really be, yeah, just exhausting, like you said, I don't think there's a better word for it.

Um, I, I know I've felt that at times, and I do make an effort to like stay in touch with my mom and stay in touch with my dad and to, you know, visit them and spend time with them. But, uh, but I have to admit there's sometimes that like hesitance to go that route and going to what you said too, on a related note with resolutions, um, that was rare to see growing up for me as well.

And in a lot of ways it still is, but. At least in the family scenario with my parents. But one thing I wanted to say, just give people hope is that when you build your own marriage, and this is you too, man, like that something so beautiful in your own marriage is that you can learn to resolve conflict while it's a skill and you can learn to.

And I know, you know, you've definitely learned that I know you're, you know, successful businessman. So I know you don't get to where you've gotten without navigating some conflict. And so I, that's one thing that's, I think really good and hopeful that people need to hear, especially who maybe aren't married yet.

Is that. You can actually change that dynamic in your own marriage. Like you're not doomed to repeat the cycle, the patterns of dysfunction that happen in your family. And I think one of the most beautiful things in my marriage that I've experienced is that, um, you know, I guess on a day to day level is just that we can actually resolve things.

You know, we still argue like, like there's disagreements, there's conflict there's times where it's just like, it kind of sucks to be married. It's it's like hard, you know, you're, there's some suffering involved. I won't pull any punches on that. Um, but then you can resolve it and, and that can look like, you know, in an hour or two or maybe the next day, and then the relationship can actually improve after that.

Uh, which is kind of a weird thing to say, as someone who comes from a broken family, cuz it's just like that wasn't modeled for us, but I'm living that right now. And I have to say it's extremely beautiful. So a lot of hope for everyone listening. Any final thoughts on. Relationships in particular before we move on.

Yeah. And, and actually to kind of build on kind of what you were saying there, please. I actually got like two, two stories about that. So again, kind of growing up, a lot of things were not very well resolved in my family. Like even as a kid, when my parents were kind of going through the divorce and, you know, I was living in two separate homes, you know, I just like the way that , that my mom and my dad like, would, would talk with each other was, you know, a lot of arguments on the phone.

And so, you know, it'd be, you know, this is when we started having cell phones and stuff. And so they're on the cell phone, you know, you yelling at each other and I'm sitting in the, you know, passenger seat, just like just taking all the tension in. Right. But then, you know, they would hang up and then, you know, someone would, you know, get back on line.

Oh, don't you hang up on me? You know, it just, it was always that kind of like tumultuous. That was, that was the bad example I saw. But, um, it was when I was actually living with that, that family Gabriel and Sarah one time, uh, you know, I was just getting home. Cause I was in college at the time getting home from school and you know, I was kind of in the house.

You know, Gabriel and Sarah were arguing about something. I don't know what it was. I, I can't even remember the context, but I just remember like, Ooh, okay, Hey, you know, I'm, I'm just gonna not be here. Cause I don't, you know, just, this is private, but also, you know, I just, whatever, I just kind of had those same vibes as like my parents are arguing.

Right. Let's just leave the room and not deal with it. But you know, I, I left, I was downstairs. I was working on my homework and stuff and um, you know, a few minutes later Gabriel came down, uh, and he was talking with me and he said, Hey, I just wanna let you know, like, this is what we're arguing about. This is how we resolved it.

You know, this is what we're gonna, you know, gonna be doing. And, and I just remember like, when he like told me that I was just like, okay, like, uh, weirdo, thank you very much for sharing that, you know, it's like, to me, it was just so like, why are you telling me. Right. And, and for me that's been something that I've actually held onto for, you know, so, so well, because I, I feel like that was probably one of the first times that I actually saw, you know, like a just real resolution.

Wow. You know, really seeing people come together to say like, Hey, we disagree on something. We have an argument, but we're gonna come to a place where, where we both agree on it. Right. We're gonna, you know, there's apologies that may have been had, or someone compromise and saying, Hey, I'm gonna try and do this better next time.

And, and for me, that's been, you know, like a, a really good example for, you know, how I want to be able to have my relationships, you know, even, even in a married sense, um, you know, be, I want us to actually have reconciliation and that's something for me that, you know, I, I really want to model in, in my family life.

Um, you know, in the future, when I have my family. And the other thing, you know, I just wanted to mention another really cool thing that to actually give me practice for a lot of this was, um, you know, going to sacrament of reconciliation and, and for me, confession, you know, I'm a convert to the faith. Um, I converted when I was in high school and I've had some ups and downs in my faith and, you know, there' a point in, you know, in my life where, you know, even my relationship with God, I just felt like, you know, how could God love a sinner like me?

I I'm ju I just do terrible wicked things. Like how could he love a person like me? And, and it was through some great people's help to really help me see, like, you know, through this sacrament reconciliation, we truly are forgiven. You know, I can go in there and say, you know, you know, God, these are the things that I've done.

The ways that I've sin against you. I'm sorry, please. Forgive. And, and through the priest, you know, God says, I forgive you and I absolve you ever sin. You know, and for me like that, you know, I go to, I go to confession often, cuz I'm a sin, but at the same time, it really has been helpful to give me actual practice in, in a lot of ways.

And you know, there's been some times even at work where, you know, I messed up on something or I didn't do something I was supposed to and I've actually told people say, Hey, I'm sorry, I messed that up. And it's so funny. It's so funny that the number of times that I've done that it throws people off. Wow.

That's, that's not common for people to admit that they did something. Yeah. You know, and, and that's the hard part about doing it because it's like, well, if I admit that I'm wrong, then what's gonna happen. Mm-hmm . Mm. And, and thankfully again, through seeing it in a lot of really good ways through friends or family, or even through, you know, the church it's been really helpful and giving me the confidence to.

Yeah, we can actually, you know, heal from this. We can actually recover from a lot of this. Beautiful. Yeah, no, that's um, no, it's so hopeful and it's such a better alternative to kind of the norm, right. Which leads to nowhere, but more frustration, more anger, more just layered on woundedness. If that makes sense.

It's just like deeper and deeper and yeah, it is just so sad. It's one of the saddest things. I think that I see, I mean, there's so many sad things in our world, but one of them is just like seeing people who have been so wounded, so traumatized and they become so bitter and so angry and then they become more wounded and more traumatized.

And it's just like this whole, like these layers upon layers. And it's so sad to me, that, to heal from that it's possible. I really believe. But it's gonna take a lot of work. And so I think like the approach that you're advocating for here, um, allows us to kind of like go into that woundedness and resolve some of it, at least by being, you know, admitting when we're wrong, being humble, taking ownership, offering forgiveness ourselves.

I mean, it's just so freeing and, and even, you know, seeking out people we've heard. And I know, you know, the 12 step programs do this a lot, but just like the whole making amends and I've experienced so much freedom in that. Like whether it's with friends or, you know, maybe people in the past that I've harmed in some way, like going back and saying like, Hey, I'm so sorry.

Like, this was so wrong of me to do this. Like, will you forgive me for people who maybe aren't used to, like that sort. What sounds like flower, flowery language um, that can be kind of a weird thing to do, but man, it is so freeing and it sounds like you've experienced the same. And I think that is such a better path to take.

And it ends up where we're not walking around with like, yeah, all these wounds attached to us in, in the same way that maybe someone who just be allows themselves to become bitter and angry. Uh, does. Yeah. And, and I think too, what's, what's helpful is even in some of my language that I use, you know, again, when, whenever I've done something wrong, you know, I will go to someone and I say, Hey, I did this wrong.

I, I go into it. I say my apology, I'm sorry. And then I do follow it up with, will you forgive me? Beautiful. And I, I think because, because what I've seen is usually if someone just says, Hey, I'm sorry, it leaves it open ended. Right. Did the other person receive it? Did the other person. You know, do, are they gonna forgive you?

And, and you know, a lot of times you hear, oh, it's okay. It's okay. Right. If I bump someone, oh, Hey, I'm sorry. You know, I'm, I'm gonna do that. But if, if I really, you know, do something, you know, terrible, or, or I wound somebody and I ask them, you know, I'm sorry, will you forgive me? Because then it makes it very clear, like I'm asking for forgiveness.

Hmm. Please, will you forgive me? And, and it puts the ball in their court and it's tough because, you know, usually we don't like to live in that attention. So, you know, sometimes we might say, yes, I forgive you. Right. We wanna resolve the, the issue. But, but if the other person, you know, really does take that time and say, yes, I do forgive you again.

That freedom that comes from that. And I, I really do think that that brings reconciliation. Yeah. And, and you can really see, Hey, you know, there we've resolved this thing that's between us and it doesn't have to fester there. It doesn't attention. Doesn't doesn't have to be it's it's not the elephant in the room, right?

Yeah. You know, and so that's, that's where I, I feel like even some of the language for other people, this might be natural, but for us who it's not natural for, we gotta practice and we gotta practice and we gotta get better at it. And I think using our language the way that we say things, I think that's really important part of that practice.

Hundred percent and like, say it in the mirror. if you need to, like, I, yeah, I won't go into this too much, but I just remember growing up, like my family, wasn't very expressive in a lot of ways, you know, my mom was more affectionate for sure than my dad. It's probably typical. But even with our words, like, I remember even language being somewhat limited.

That might sound kind of funny, but you know, we. Say things like, oh, thank you so much. Or there wasn't really a lot of emphasis, a lot of warmth, so to speak, um, at least in the way that I talked. And eventually when I learned like, man, that's like a really good way to treat people and I wanted to be like that.

It felt so awkward. so, uh, so yeah, maybe even for anyone out there who's feeling this or experienced that like practice in the mirror, like, start with someone who, you know, maybe it's not like that big of a deal, uh, situation where you, you maybe hurt someone, but it's something you still wanna apologize for.

That might be a little awkward, might feel weird, but as you do it more, you become better at it. And I wanted to use this opportunity, Craig, if it's okay. Like parents listening. If you recognize how difficult life has been for your children because of your broken marriage and the divorce or separation or whatever situation you're in my challenge to you is to do what Craig said, like, apologize.

I could hear people kind of objecting to this. I clarify one thing you might think, well, my spouse is really the one to blame. I get that. Like, they certainly contributed to it. No doubt, like it takes two for sure. And in some cases, you know, there there's certainly cases where like one spouse has really to blame for the things that went down in the marriage.

But at the same time, we have to admit that, um, like I said, it does take two. And so even if one spouse was like absolutely wrong in what they did or what they said or whatever, we were still a part of it at some level. And so you. Take that ownership of your piece of the pie and apologize to your children.

I have to say like, your kids might not know what to say back to that. And that's okay. But that is powerful. Like, you know, if, if you experience that from a parent, then you know, how, how powerful that could be. And just the final challenge there when you do that. Ask them, you know, Hey, will you forgive me?

And if they're not ready, that's okay. Like give 'em some space, give 'em some time, maybe, you know, follow up with them in a few months or whatever timeframe is appropriate. But, but that's my challenge to parents out there is to, to say that to your kids, to apologize for everything that's come from the brokenness within your marriage.

And by the way, by doing that, you're not like condemning yourself to this being this like horrible person who harmed them. But you're really you're I think redeeming the relationship and you. Becoming an even better parent through that. And I know the thing that parents all want is like, we wanna love our children well, and, you know, be the best parent that we can be.

Like we, most of us would take a bullet for our kids. And so this is in a way taking a bullet for your kid by doing this really hard thing of bringing up a difficult topic, apologizing and asking for forgiveness. So that's my challenge to your parents out there. I wanna change direction in the conversation a little bit, Craig, um, when it comes to healing and growing, uh, what were, what were some of the things like maybe two, three things that really helped you cope and, and heal the most?

Yeah, I, I think one, uh, one thing in particular, uh, one of the obvious things that's really helped me is counseling, uh, having a good counselor, um, to really be able. Talk about the wounds that I have in a safe place. Um, you know, that, that's one of the things with, with the trauma, like a parent's divorce, what, you know, our body response to that.

So uniquely, you know, our, our brain can com compartmentalize something and then, you know, suppress that, or, you know, you know, kind of put layers upon that. So we don't think about those things, right? Because if something becomes overwhelming for us, you know, we might not, our minds not, might not know what to do with it.

So again, it compartmentalizes and suppresses, and it does a lot of goofy things. If we never go back to those things and really, you know, help shed lights into that, you know, really show like, you're, you, you are safe. You know, you are not experiencing these traumas anymore, or things like that. Like this isn't gonna work 100% of the time, but if we're able to address those things and talk about our wounds and our trauma, uh, we're able to recover from those things, uh, a bit better.

And so true. Yeah. First thing here is just counseling. Um, I, I think that's and finding a good counselor too, because, you know, and I, I don't know this for sure, but I've heard stories of, you know, some counselors they do recommend divorce and, or they do recommend other, you know, maybe not so good habits of things to do.

Um, and so, you know, having a trusted counselor, um, that you can, you know, you know, trust that's really important. So that's, that's one thing. Another thing for me, that's really been helpful for, uh, healing was when I went on a retreat last year. Uh, and it was kind of really focused on this again, it was with that group life giving.

You know, for me, I had been looking for ways to like find healing in this particular area. And you know, that first day of retreat, you know, we started off and, you know, for me, I just felt like a, a, a wind up toy or something like that was just like, so just like tense and stuff like that. And when we started the retreat, you know, there was a gal who was playing music for us, and she comes from a household of divorce as well.

And she was playing the song. It was a, it's a really fun, cool story, but, you know, again, long story short, she was playing. And, uh, the first song that she played, she actually broke down crying because of the song, the beauty of the song. And when she started crying, I know at least for myself and many other people in the room, we all just started crying with her.

And, and for me, that was really, you know, it, it was on that retreat that I first, I felt like the first time I got permission. To feel and, and really got that permission to say like, you know, someone just telling me, Hey, you know what you experienced? It's not okay. You know, and, and anyone else who goes through this, that's one of the things that I remind them, because I hear things when I've talked to other people, oh, you know, they did this, but it's okay.

You know, and, and I, I pause and I just say, it's not okay because it's not every child deserves a good home with both a mom and a dad, you know, that's what they deserve. That's what I deserve. And I didn't get that. And that's, that's a tragedy. That's sad. Yeah. We should be upset about that. And so, you know, for, for me, really just being able to acknowledge and feel my emotions, um, was, was also in just getting that permission.

That was something that was really big for me because I, I, I really came to see like, Hey, One it's not okay. And I it's okay with not being okay. You know, for, for me, you know, being in a place where it's like, you know, I got, I got problems because of this. Yeah. You know, it's, it's not like it's gonna be like this forever.

I don't want it to be like this forever. So I, I can do stuff to change this. I can change this. So again, it just, that was one of those big things that really just opened up the flood gates for me, just to like, let it go and to really start to look for healing. And then the last thing, and the last thing I'll say here was, um, having really good examples of like relationships and like even a family life, that family that, um, that I mentioned a number of times, Gabriel and Sarah, they've just been so fantastic for me.

I, I think that I look back on a lot of where I've come and a lot of growth that I've had in my life. I really look back to that year that I got a chance to live with them. because I got to see, you know, a mom and a dad raising two and three kids, you know, they have nine kids now. It's beautiful. Wow. But, but they are in that similar mission of raising their kids.

They are building a home of safety and security. You know, I, I got a year to really stew in that and really see what it's like, you know, to have a functional family. And to me, a lot of those things that happened during that year, uh, it really planted a lot of really good seeds for me to where now, as, as time went on, you know, and, and I'm actually working in this healing, I can go back to those moments.

I can go back to those seeds that were planted and I can see the fruit that it's, it's starting to bear in my life. It TA it took me a long time, but really just being in a good, safe environment was, was so healing for me. To really just to seek that freedom, to experience it and just to work in it, you know, they, they gave me a lot and I'm always thankful for them.

Beautiful, such good points. And within those points are like great advice, like great things that anyone listening right now who feels broken, especially because of the brokenness within your family, you can do all these things and, and that's beautiful. Um, so thank you for going through that. I was curious, the musician was that Emily who sang this song.

Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Shout out to Emily care. If you're listening right now, , uh, she, she's a beautiful woman and her and her husband are awesome. Uh, we, we're part of like a marriage group with the two of them. So, uh, yeah, they're both great. And so shout out to you guys. Thanks for mentioning that. Kirk, I'm curious with, you know, you being on this path of healing and growth and just the amount of time and effort you've put into this, um, how is your life look different now?

Like obviously it's still work in progress, of course, but I'm curious, like how, how have you changed. Yeah. Uh, I think one of the big ways that I've really changed is, and I've been, and this is the big point of change for me too in my life is to allow other people in. I, once, uh, I was the last retreat that I was on.

We had one of the speakers who was talking about the difference between transparency and vulnerability. For me, I felt like a lot of my life I've been able to be transparent. You know, I'm able to save the things that were going on, but I, I didn't allow myself to be vulnerable. I didn't allow myself to be open to emotional connection with other people.

You know, people could ask me, Hey, you know, um, you know, tell me about your parents' divorce. And I could just like ripple off all the facts and all the things that happened, but I didn't get to the point of saying like, and when this happened, this hurt me. You know, and, and having to, you know, do those kinds of things.

You know, I didn't like that when I was a kid, it stressed me out or, you know, just kind of allowing myself to, to share in the wounds that I have. You know, I kind of look at it to give an example. Uh, I always, I was related to the movie, the beauty and the beast where like the beast, you know, what does he tell bell?

You know, he says, you can go anywhere in this entire castle, except for you. Can't go to the west wind. Don't go there. And, and for me, that's, that's what I felt like when a lot of ways where it's like, people can have all parts of me, but this is the one part that you can't have. You know, whether it's relationships with friends or family, or even God, you know, you can have all this other parts of my life, but you can't have this.

Oh. And I think the biggest part that's really changed for me is I've been allowing for people to come into my life and to. Thanks essentially coming to the west wing. And, uh, and that's been one of the bigger, bigger changes, uh, for me that I've really seen in my healing, because what that has done for me is it's, it's helped me to see, I can trust other people.

Mm-hmm I can, I can rely on other people. You know, I, uh, uh, I remember one time I was just having a really rough go, I was going through a bad breakup and I called my dad on the phone and I asked him, you know, dad, could you stay the night with me at my apartment? You know, he lives about an hour away. And I was so nerve wracked to ask my dad.

And then he said, yes. And, and that was something that was so healing for me to really, you know, see, like I asked my dad for something that I needed. And he came and we spent the whole night talking, we watched movies, we got wings and all that kind of stuff, you know? Nice. And, and it wasn't, it wasn't like this super huge emotional moment in my life, but at the same time, like it was, yeah.

You know, I needed my dad. He was like, and so, you know, just over my course of my healing, I've just been able to see, I can open up to people and sometimes they'll let me down, but they also might not. And, and I give people the chance giving people the chance to rise to the occasion has been something that's been hard.

And, and I still struggle with, but at the same time, I've been able to kind of start to rewrite that because there's been a lot of cases where they have done it for me. So good, man. You're, you're inspiring to me, man. Uh, you should see all the notes I'm taking. It's great. This is great stuff. This is really good.

Flipping gears a little bit. Uh, do you hate your parents? No, okay. I always ask that and it always got to similar response. It's like, no, no, we don't hate our parents. We, we love our parents, but we can still talk about this stuff that we've been through with the hope of ultimately what I want is a better relationship with my mom and my dad.

Uh, not, not, not a worse one. And so if they were listening right now, uh, what would you want them to know? Yeah, I, I think with my dad, uh, over the past couple years, I've actually grown a lot closer with my dad, uh, and, and really been able to talk a lot about these things that I've experienced and I've felt.

Uh, and so for my dad, I would just say, you know, thank you for, uh, being heroic in, in being there for me being present. Uh, my dad, uh, I remember years ago, I was talking to my dad around right before father's day and I was trying to understand his story and I just, I was learning about him and it hit me.

When his mom and dad, my grandparents, when they divorced his dad abandoned the family. And so my dad has never had an example, you know, of a strong father figure in his life. We have my step grandfather, his name's pops, you know, we love him and he's done so many great things for our family, but my dad didn't always have that, you know, that father figure in his life.

Mm. And, you know, to see my dad do the exact opposite of what his father did, even though my parents divorced, my dad stood around, stayed around. And so for me, I just, I just say, thank you to him. Um, thank you for listening to me and really just helping me, uh, on my journey of healing. Um, so for my dad, thank you, uh, for my mom, uh, it's, it's a little tougher because, uh, I haven't spoke to my mom in over a year.

And that was actually a choice that I had made, you know, coming off of when I went on a retreat, uh, you know, the lifeing ones retreat when I was on it myself, you know, I came back from a retreat and, um, I, you know, I asked for some space for my mom because there's, I, I started to realize that there was a lot of anger that I have towards my mom.

Um, and there's a lot of healing that I need to go through with that relationship. And, and for me, I'm not. So for my mom, I would say like, I'm not taking this time to hurt you to, to punish you, but I'm just trying to take this time right now to heal. So that way I can come back and, and try and have a relationship, uh, with you.

I I'm, I'm trying, I'm working hard on it and, you know, I, I, yeah, so that's one of the things that, um, yeah, it's, it's tough, uh, tough to have. Cause like I've never really had a relationship with my mom. So, you know, if, if I can heal that. Come back and find a relationship that we can have. It's probably not gonna look the same as it used to be sure, but, but if I, if I could make it to something that I, I want it to be, that's what I'm trying for.

That makes so much sense. And, um, there's hope, man. I I've been through that, um, with my dad on occasion where, you know, I think I won a year, year and a half as well without talking to him just cuz yeah, I just didn't like the way that he was acting, didn't agree with the things he was doing and the way he was treating people.

And so, um, I explained it to him like, Hey, not, not gonna be talking to you because these things and I would, I ultimately want a relationship with you. And so I told him, you know, as soon as I see some sort of change or transformation, then uh, I wanna resume this and we did. And so, uh, you know, I wish the same for you and I hope it can improve and get better.

Um, but uh, yeah, there's nothing wrong to anyone listening too. There's nothing wrong with, uh, taking some space for yourself. Um, yeah, that can be, it might seem like a selfish thing, but it can actually be an extremely selfless thing. Um, or it can be something that is necessary to put a boundary in place, um, in order to help another person learn how to treat you well and learn how to love you.

Well, because if we put up with bad behavior, we're somewhat to blame, you know? And so there can be a lot of good. What I've learned is there, there can be a lot of good in setting those boundaries and kind of having that tough love, um, with the long view in mind that you ultimately hopefully can have that good relationship, but it takes work.

And so I, uh, wish you guys the best and count of my prayers view. Of course, if people wanna connect with you, get your advice, what's the best way for them to do. I have an Instagram account. Uh, I've been off it a little bit here, you know, over Len and Easter time. Um, but I do have my Instagram account. Um, it's, it's not a, a clever handle or anything it's, uh, Craiger or Craiger Soto.

So Craig, ER, S OTO, um, you can reach, reach me there. Um, reach out to me, feel free to message or follow and all that kind of. Um, uh, I do also have a, uh, Twitter account. Uh, it mostly is a live tweeting of stranger things season four. So just be ready for that. No spoilers, but, uh, again, you can, uh, reach out to me there, uh, as well.

Awesome. Thanks so much, man. I really appreciate your time. You're wisdom. Um, you've learned so much and you're just a wealth of, uh, knowledge information. Thanks for everything that you're doing to help people like us who come from broken families like it does. It makes a huge difference. I wanna give you the last word and, uh, just wondering, like what words of encouragement, uh, advice would you give to someone who right now is listening?

They feel broken. They feel stuck in life because of everything that's happened within their family, their parents' marriage falling apart. Um, what advice, what encouragement would you give to them? Yeah, I, I think the advice I'd give is, you know, even for the things that really, you know, help me it's, it's okay to not be okay.

Uh it's okay. To feel like everything's overwhelming. Because in a lot of ways, it is. I, I would also say that your life doesn't have to be like this and that you do have the opportunity to change it. It takes a lot of hard work, uh, and it's not gonna happen overnight. Um, you know, for me, I, I know my journey's gonna be something that's gonna probably, you know, go over a lifetime for me.

At the same time, there, there is hope for change. We have our own agency and, and we can, can make our lives the way that we envision it. Um, there's a lot of ways, uh, that I wasn't taught how to do things. Well, I don't know how to go on vacation. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna take vacations and I'm gonna try and figure it out and be bad at it.

You know, it's, it's okay to be bad at something and, and just try and do better every single time we can make incremental changes and, and we can grow. And then the last thing, uh, I'll say, just for encouragement, I'm sure that there's, there's things that have happened in your life, where, you know, friends or even family, your parents have let you down.

Don't let that be the only control in your life. If, if you open yourself up and it doesn't go the way that you wanted to, and there's a lot of pain in her that comes from it. , that's not how everyone's gonna be. That's not how, you know, every situation's gonna be, it's not final. It's not universal. You are not broken.

You are not dysfunctional. You are not the worst. You are loved. You are deserving of love and, and you deserve the world because you're here. And, you know, I, I speak on this sense from, from the God side of things. God loves you. And he wants to give the world to you. He wants to give all of himself to you.

And, uh, sometimes we just gotta get out of his way and receive the love. He's given us

to any of you parents listening. I wanna reiterate my challenge to apologize to your children and a few tips on how to do this. If you're not ready to do it face to face, then write them a letter or send them an email. A letter is best, but an email works too. Don't expect an immediate response. Give them time to kind of chew on it to process it.

They're probably gonna be pretty shocked that you're even apologizing because this is just not the. Try not to explain a ton what happened or make any excuses or Casy blame. Like if you need to give some important details, that's fine, but you're not here to make an argument. This is not a court case.

You're here to apologize. And so instead focus on your children's experience of everything that's happened, the pain and the problems, it caused them. And that's it and apologize for whatever role you played in causing that. And I promise you in the end, it's gonna help you heal and improve your relationship with your child or with your children.

Now, if you're someone who comes from a broken family and you'd like to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. There's three easy steps to share your story. But before I share those, some of the benefits of sharing your story are these. Reflecting on your story is actually healing on a neurobiologic level, makes your brain healthier.

Writing your story is also healing. There's been studies that have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed. They're less anxious, they're healthier, and they're happier sharing your story with someone else too. Like us is actually additionally healing on a neurobiological level.

It makes your brain healthier and also it gives guidance. Your story gives guidance and hope to people who are struggling. So if you wanna share your story, here's how you do it. Just go to restored ministry.com/story again, restored ministry ministry, singular.com/story. And the form is gonna guide you in telling a short version of your story.

And then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous blog article. So go ahead and share your story now@restorministry.com slash story or click on the link in the show notes. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restorministry.com slash 70. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe.

And if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#073: Prepare for Your Marriage, Not Just Your Wedding | Fr. Daniel Ciucci & Deacon Colin Coleman

Whether you’re single, dating, or engaged, your wedding day will be a beautiful experience. However, planning it is very consuming. As a result, it’s easy to prepare more for the wedding day than for a lifetime of marriage. 

Marriage preparation is meant to refocus you and prepare you not only for your wedding day, but for your marriage. In this episode, we discuss marriage prep and:

• The main cause of dysfunction and divorce, according to my guests

• What can be done to better help people from broken families to build great marriages

• A sneaky thing that can sabotage anyone’s marriage

• An assessment to help you understand the reality of your relationship heading toward marriage

• Advice and encouragement for leaders of marriage prep

If you hope to be married one day or you lead marriage prep, this episode is for you. 

Get the Marriage Guide and Talk

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Father Daniel Ciucci

  • Email: fatherdaniel@mpbdenver.org

  • Homily Links

    • Homily on Divorce & Annulments

    • Success is Fidelity

    • Fullness of Years

    • Correct Your Spouse

    • Invite Jesus to Your Wedding

• Deacon Coleman

  • Email: deacon.coleman@archden.org

  • Office Number: 303-715-3259

• Booklet: Pure Intimacy by Jason Evert

• Talk: Green Sex by Jason Evert

• The Power of Prayer by Fr. Mike Schmitz

• Tips for Praying by Fr. Mike Schmitz

• Prayer For Beginners by Peter Kreeft

• Time for God by Fr. Jacques Philippe

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Whether you're single dating or engaged, your wedding day is such a beautiful and special day. I know mine was, it was such a fun day where we had almost everyone that we love in the same place at the same time. There's probably never a time in my life where that will happen. Again. However, planning that day can be extremely time consuming, really stressful and definitely expensive.

And in many ways it can take over your life. It certainly felt that way for my wife, bridged and me, and because wedding planning is so consuming, we often prepare more for the wedding day than we do for a lifetime of a marriage, which is obviously backwards, but that's where marriage preparation comes in.

Marriage prep or premarital counseling is meant to refocus. You. On the marriage, which is naturally more important than the celebration. And so in this episode, we discuss what marriage prep looks like and why it's important. We share the main cause of dysfunction and divorce. According to my guests, we hit on what can be done to better help people who come from broken families to build great marriages where they're not just surviving and staying together, but actually thriving.

We expose a sneaky thing that can really sabotage anyone's marriage. We talk about an assessment to help you understand the reality of your relationship heading toward marriage. And finally, my guests offer advice and encouragement for leaders of marriage prep programs. So if you hope to be married one day, or maybe you lead marriage prep, this episode is for you.

Keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 70. Today I have two guests on the show. The first one is father Daniel CCI.

He probably has the shortest bio I've ever seen, which certainly does not sum him up as a person. But here it is, father Daniel has been a Catholic priest for five years and he serves as pastor of most precious blood parish in Denver, Colorado. My other guess is deacon Collin Coleman. He was baptized a Catholic, but he wasn't raised as a Catholic.

And he first encountered the faith in our Lord in a real way at age 21, just before he married his wife, Maria, after getting married, deacon Coleman helped found the St Vin's youth movement in New Zealand. He's a Kiwi in his accent is awesome. I'm excited for you to experience that. And then he was asked by the Bishop to join the diocese and youth team as director a position he held for two years.

Desiring to deepen his faith in his relationship with God deacon Coleman and his wife joined the community of the be attitudes in 1993, joining in a be attitude house in France, that was only a few miles away from Lord's a popular pilgrimage center. They were then asked to help found the be attitude house in Christ church, New Zealand, where they stayed for nine years.

They were then led to the United States to assist in the mission in Denver, Colorado, where he serves the parish as a deacon at St. Catherine of Sienna. On behalf of the archdiocese deacon Coleman teaches and provides formation for engaged couples, preparing for marriage as part of his responsibilities with the B attitude community.

He assists in the formation of new members in ongoing formation of existing members. Deacon Coleman was ordained at deacon in 2011 and has been married to Maria for the past 33 years. And they've been blessed with seven children, four daughters, two sons, and one son waiting for them in heaven. He's currently working at the archdiocese in marriage and family life office as the marriage and NFP specialist.

Now, if it wasn't obvious up to now, uh, I wanna give a little disclaimer, we're talking to a Catholic priest and a Catholic deacon. Now we try hard to make this podcast for anyone, regardless of their religious beliefs. That being said, we let our guests share their beliefs. And so today you're gonna again hear it from a Catholic priest and a Catholic DEA and who naturally share their worldview.

Now, if you're not Catholic or perhaps you're not even Christian or you don't believe in God, I'm so glad you're here. And my challenge to you is this, listen with an open mind. I guarantee that you'll benefit from this episode. Even if you take all the God parts out, and if you disagree with something that we say in this episode, there's nothing wrong with that.

We offer some resources at the end to learn more about what we're discussing, because so often when we disagree with things or with people that we don't really understand, we don't really look into both sides of the argument. I think we owe it to ourselves and to the people on the other side of the table to really look into both sides of an issue.

Now, with that said, I did wanna mention that there's two types of deacons in the Catholic church. I didn't want you to be confused to this episode. There are permanent deacons and transitional deacons, transitional deacons are not married because they're on the way to become priests. And so unless they're a part of a different writer sect that allows married priests, they aren't gonna get married.

Permanent deacons can be married because they're not on the way to become priests. And so the deacon in this interview is a permanent deacon. So he'll be talking about his wife. I just didn't want you to be confused. So with all that taken care of, here's my conversation with father Daniel and deacon Coleman,

father, and deacon. Thank you so much for being here.

I'm

happy. Thanks for the invite.

Yeah. Good to be with you. Well, I guess father,

thank you for letting us come to your house and oh, you're record here. This is great. I wanna jump in, uh, father, if you would. Uh, what do we mean when we say marriage prep for anyone who maybe doesn't really know

what we're talking about.

Beautiful. Um, so there's actually a lot of underlying presuppositions for why do we need to prepare ourselves for the sacrament of holy matrimony, right. With baptism, right? The, uh, parents and godparents get prepped, but the kid doesn't get prepped. Right. Thank goodness. That would be hard. Yeah. Um, so then why does the couple need to be prepped?

They're the ministers of the sacrament of holy Mamo. And so the husband and wife to be the bride and groom, they're the ones who, uh, who contract marriage, legally speaking. Mm-hmm . And so it's their own will their own consent. And so when we say marriage prep, I begin marriage prep by actually asking them, can you tell me what an annulment is?

Mm interesting. And which is, some people think is a really depressing way to start, but , I, I totally redeem it. You know, we say an annulment is a declaration. Well, first of all, they say, they like to say Catholic divorce. Like this is a, a special kind of marriage that like, you know, if you pay enough money, you can get it canceled so you can get remarried.

So, you know, whatever. And it's like, Nope does not work that way. Yeah, right. An annulment is a declaration that one, or both of the parties had a defect in their will. Mm-hmm in terms of their expectations of, into solu ability. The fact that marriage, uh, lasts till death to we part. exclusivity. I give myself to you and to only you, a life of sacrifice, a life of children are you open, uh, to the children that God gives you.

And then within each of those, that will needs to be fostered mm-hmm , that's what marriage prep is, is strengthening the will that they bring to the altar. Anyone can say yes on the day of their wedding. Mm-hmm anyone can even mean yes, on the day of their wedding, but everyone brings both strengths and weaknesses or defects of will to the altar as well.

Mm-hmm . And so marriage prep is trying to strengthen those, define them, strengthen the defects of will to make the couple annulment proof. That's what I also tell them. And they're sometimes they're like, whoa, that's intense. And I was like, but that's great. Cuz you love each other. Yeah. I didn't sign up for this.

Does that make sense? Yeah. No, absolutely. Roundabout way of saying, when we say marriage prep, we're strengthening the will the consent to be able to re more fruitfully, receive the blessing of God through the mediation of the church, but they themselves, the bride and the groom are the SAC. The ministers of the sacrament of holy matrimony makes so

much

sense and we prepare for so many things in life and it makes sense that marriage would need to be one of 'em.

And it's really sad that we don't prepare more. I mean, you were in seminary for years preparing to become a priest and deacon, you went through your own training as well, but it seems like there's just this mad rush to the finish line for a lot of married couple or engaged couples, I should say. Um, and sadly the marriage might suffer because we're so focused on the wedding.

We're just so focused on our future life together, not the actual sacrament. anything you would add about, um, you know, what marriage prep is and why it's important.

Sure. In that, in that way, you know, that idea of strengthening the Willers is allowing the couple also to say yes, freely in that way so that they know that when I say yes, uh, in, in freedom that I am saying yes, until death do we part mm-hmm and so it's preparing them to, as they enter into, um, give themselves to each other, through their vows that they're, um, saying yes to all of these things, good times in bad for better, or for worse sickness and health.

Um, is those moments where, yeah, because of the daily situation, we will be challenged. But my goal is to bring, as we would say through the church, bring my, my spouse to heaven that knowing that we are die, going to die, that, that this idea of being able to live with this person and, um, And be a source of really life in the community and say, say, um, say yes, in a, in a free mm-hmm so that, and our will needs to be strengthened in that.

And it's, it's, it's so important. And so being able to, um, prepare them for that moment, which is also difficult as well, as you were saying, they're caught up with so many organizational details. Yep. Um, and the Instagram culture that they're caught up with is, uh, they often forget that idea of what my yes is actually saying.

And so, and it's a real gift that the church is offering this in, in a way that it does give the, the opportunity for couples to reflect mm-hmm they have the time to actually say, well, what am I saying yes to, and am I doing it freely?

Yeah, no, it's so good. It's, it's so necessary. And going back to that point of like, why it's important.

I, I don't remember the statistics, perhaps you two might, but those couples who do go through any sort of marriage prep, premarital counseling, there are odds of having a successful marriage. Uh, is much higher or at least from what I've heard, do you guys recall the statistics? If, if not that's okay. So

each demographic is depends on the data that you see, right?

Oh, interesting. Yep. Um, but the, the Catholic divorce rate is pretty much the same as the, as the state mm-hmm , but we, so that go also goes back to do I have the will to carry out what I'm trying to live? I have the experience cuz I lead lead some, um, couples through marriage preparation and about three to five years later, they'll give me a call.

Not everyone. Thanks Peter. God. Yeah. But you know, um, one or two out of the hundreds that I deal with and I ask my first question and I ask them, is, were you able to implement some of the stuff that we went through in marriage prep and their answer is always no. Mm they, and so the idea of saying, yes, am I strengthening my will?

Am I in intentional in living out that, um, moment? Cause our will, if it's not, um, strengthened through practice is. Fail. Yeah. And so that idea of when we talk about divorce or marriages being successful, um, is, is encouraging couples to be intentional living out their vows as well.

Mm-hmm okay. No, that makes sense.

I went to Franciscan university and there's kind of this myth going around that we have like a higher divorce rate than maybe with the rest of society. I haven't been able to find any data on that. So it's just a myth when it comes to Francisco university alumni. But, um, it is true that there's still a lot of couples.

I know more than a handful at this point who they both went to this good Catholic university and now they're getting divorced and it's so sad to see that. And I'm sure you guys know people

like that as well. So yeah, I think there's a supposition that if you pray X amount of rosaries or go to at least two daily masses a week, therefore your marriage is guaranteed protected.

Yeah. You're like, uh, that's not, that's not how it works. Well, let's

say there for a second. What's the mismatch. You know, obviously there's a lot of brokenness. I think people bring into marriage and that certainly plays a big role in the issues that they face and whether or not it succeeds or not, they stay together.

They have, you know, hopefully a happy marriage, but yeah. What have you guys seen in marriages that they do maybe have some good formation. They do have this good background, but then somehow they end up in a position that they never thought they would be where they're getting divorced or things are just

really dysfunctional.

I think residually part of the culture, right? Go back to our grandparents. They came from a generation where, you know, he came back from world war II, saw some gal in, in the living room at his party and said, I'm gonna marry her. Yeah. And then they did. And then they got married three months later, they had maybe one to two meetings with the priest.

That was what marriage prep. But that came from a culture where you did what you said you were gonna do. You had a domestic life within the home. You came back, you know, mom and dad dwell together where things perfect. No, humanity's humanity. Mm-hmm but I think residually in the culture. The home life was so important.

There was such a gravitational pull, the ability to, um, you couldn't escape. Mm. You couldn't run to your phone. You couldn't stream media and whatever, and just run elsewhere. And so even just the regular domestic life, the, the, the San sanctifying, the home by vacuuming, sanctifying the home by paintings, the, the walls, right.

The regular daily life of work that even nowadays we hire that out. We have other people do. Yeah. Because we're so stressed. Yeah. We're so burdened. We're so whatever. And then I think couples feel really nowadays feel really difficult, bringing their hurt to each other. So then the home's no longer, even this place of communion that may have happened back then as well.

Right. In those days, you also kind of had the kind of grin and Barrett culture. Mm-hmm . And so that's not to say every. Everyone who was married before 1955 had an automatically sanctified marriage, right? No. Yeah, but again, divorce kind of public. The stigma of divorce is no longer, but I think that frees couples up to say, we need help.

Mm-hmm uh, and to go kind of, yeah. Seek the help that they need. Anyways. I don't what do you

have to do? Yeah. And just to segue onto that, I think that's that divorce is an option. Right. That idea of simply having it on the table is something, um, one of those, what I try and do anyway, is is that when we speak about vulnerability, that it's a very difficult thing for couples to accept.

And, um, you know, we, we dwell a bit, um, you know, and there's that passage in the Bible where, um, they were both naked yet. They had no shame mm-hmm we? Yeah, they were naked, but there was so much more to that, that they were totally exposed to one another. Mm. Right. They were able to be in their humanity before the other person without shame.

Yeah. Oh yeah. And as couples, they it's, it is very, and that's a lifelong process as well, to be able to continue to open, open up your heart to someone and, and leave it exposed. Mm-hmm, , it's scary. Right. It's, it's terrifying for, for some people, especially if they've lived through trauma and this, I, the other idea that, um, we try and reinforce as well is even though these couples yeah.

There, we have a, where we, we live a pious life. Being a gift to the other person, right? Are, are we really allowing ourselves to be that gift? Or are, are we expecting too much from the other person and not really voicing it? Are we actually able to bring, you know, as Christians, as Catholics, the person of Jesus Christ into the midst, rather than having that external faith of, well, I went to mass, but how did we seek communion as a couple mm-hmm and those times where I think there's a lot of neglect and, um, who they are as a couple.

And I think with the culture as it is today, um, there's that trap of becoming very functional as a couple. Mm-hmm like, we'll, we'll get we'll, we'll move in. Denver's expensive. Right. So we gotta live together. Yeah. Right. And, um, who needs a two bedroom when we can have a one bedroom and so, right. So we become sexually active and then, you know, I think we should make more of a commitment.

We should get a dog.

As a sign of undying love for each other. Yes. Right?

Yeah. But this is, you know, but what do you do for a dog? You look after it and it's very functional. Yeah. Yeah. Right. There's no, um, giving of yourself in that sense. Well, the dog loves me. Right. And it loves unconditionally will you feed you?

Don't feed that dog for three days and tell me how much that dog loves you. Yeah. Right. Um, and so these kind of things, um, where, you know, this natural, you know, um, when we're talking about the 1950s, there, there was this expectation of bringing children into the family. And so you, then you see your love yeah.

Manifested through, through, through that child. And so it's, you can't be manifested through a dog and I like dogs by the way. Yeah, me too. Yeah. But, um, you can't see it truly manifested and I think that's where couples, especially faith, we, and I'm doing ear quotes, faithful couples. Yeah. There's not that often, and it's not a reason, but it's one of the factors that I think there's no, there's not a vulnerability, but they, and so there's not that emotional connection.

There's more of a functional relationship. And so I always say people are generally annoying. Right. And so if you're living one, living with one , I was like,

thank you. even celebrates recognize that.

Yeah. but if you're living with someone by goodness, and if it's a function and if it's a functioning, functional relationship, those, uh, annoyances are just gonna become manifested.

And then yeah. Often the, the phrases said, I don't love you anymore.

Right? Yeah. Or you're not the person I fell in love with. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Which is more of a statement of my personal preference. Yeah. Than of you changed somehow. You're not

doing your job properly in the relationship.

Yeah. Mm-hmm and it's so funny that you brought up, um, you know, naked, without shame.

So many of these couples come to us already, you know, sexually active, whatever they met on Tinder, you know, um, whatever it. And they'll they'll come already have having tasted the fruits of those intimacies. Yeah. But then you ask them to pray together and it's so awkward. Yeah. Mm they're like, oh, I, I, they're afraid of being judged and you're like, but this is the person with whom you feel, you feel comfortable, you know, being naked literally.

Yeah. But it's not just physical nakedness. It's the, like, what are the other wounds who, you know, who's the embarrassing sixth grade version of me that you don't yet know about or, or my dysfunctional family behind me. Uh, and, and, and so they can kind of share a certain part of their life, but still kind of withhold the vulnerability, emotional, spiritual, whatever it may be.

Uh, and then that's, that's super preventative from whole, from communion with one another mm-hmm . And then to go back to the fifties, uh, round out this thought, I think you, you, in those days, a man and a woman went from a family and then formed a family. Mm. and that's the notion that we still have in the ceremony of the father giving away his daughter, that she's literally handed over as a prized jewel as a, uh, you know, a, a pinnacle of God's creation.

But so often we have either broken families like weddings. I always have to ask, like, what are the, what are the family dynamics when everybody shows up to this wedding, because rarely is it a bride and a groom coming from an intact family. And they seek to form that intact family. But again, in certain marriage prep, we're trying to strengthen the will so that they can will by God's grace to live that out in the daily, boring Tuesday mornings of, of marriage, not just Saturday nights and Friday nights, when, when everything's awesome.

Yeah, so good.

And you know, some, the majority of our audience comes from broken families. So I'm glad you're bringing that up. Thinking what you were saying before about kind of running the home or the family as like a business. Mm. I know it's honestly a tendency in me and I think in American culture, especially like type a people, people like me, um, yeah, that functional can be very tempting, especially cuz I like run, you know, a company.

Yeah. And then I run this nonprofit as well. So it's like, well, marriage is different. And our marriage counselor would like try to remind me of that. Like again and again, we've gone to marriage counseling. It's like this isn't a business. This isn't gonna be efficient. So I think it's an important reminder to, to hear, I did wanna go into, I know each of you have, um, your own form of marriage prep, so I'd love to learn kind of what that looks like.

Like if, if a couple listening right now were to go through it, what would they do? Uh, what, what's the agenda like? And so on

father,

you wanna start. So there's gonna be a lot of common eye cuz we both do ministry within the archdiocese of Denver and there's kind of prerequisite mm-hmm um, Requirements for that.

Um, so one would be the focus inventory, which a lot of couples are like, how did we do on the test? They want to know like X percentage. It is not a team. Yeah. Not a test. It's not, it's not gonna give you red light green light. Are you good to go or not? Yeah. Um, I kind of saw it like that, but I had to fight against that too.

I was like, wait, it's not a test. It's just like an indicator. And it's so funny cuz we even have instructions from that company to not give them the full results for a couple reasons one. Right, right. They don't want, you don't want them to quantify the relationship. Yeah. Like we're only, uh, 86% good on finances, but 62% on uh, extended family issues or whatever it is.

Yeah. It just kind of, it's an inventory that says, Hey, this couple based on their responses has less agreement around the area of finances, friends, hobbies, bonding, activities, whatever it is. and then the relationship comes to life. That's why I, as a celibate priest, I send them, uh, I, I go through their focus inventory once with them.

Mm-hmm and then I send them to another couple. I always say, I'm a really good mechanic. I just don't drive the car. Mm-hmm right. And so I don't have the driving skills, but I can fix a lot of things. I've seen a lot of things in the confessional. I've seen a lot of things in my office. I've heard a lot of things at 1130 at night when crap's going down and they call me, right?

Yeah. So I send them to couples who are living the life of holy matrimony, cuz I can provide a lot of the theology and the theory. But they also need that on the ground. So focus would be one thing. Natural family planning would be another thing. Um, again, I, uh, I send, we send that out elsewhere specialists.

Mm-hmm um, cuz there's a lot of biological needs now. Mm-hmm mm-hmm um, with, with that, would you explain FP for people who don't know? Yeah. Natural family planning. So even if, uh, for those who are non-religious, it's such an empowering tool for women, especially that way they don't have to be kind of the gatekeepers in the relationship or depend on, you know, chemicals or plastic to kind of in regards to contraception in regards to contraception.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, they don't have to depend on that to just kind of control the aspects of their life again, when they, when a couple says, I give myself to you fruit fully faithfully fruitfully forever. Part of that is I give you the gift of my ability to reproduce mm-hmm I give you my, my biological fity.

Mm, right. Mm-hmm . And so the church has, uh, a teaching around contraception that to withhold a portion of yourself. Is actually gonna spiritually sterilize the relationship as well. Plus the other way I like to explain it is, um, you know, if, if little Johnny gets to eat an Oreo, whenever he wants, even if he can metabolize that Oreo mm-hmm, , it's gonna change his character, even if it doesn't change his weight.

Hmm. And so I think so many, especially guys come into marriage thinking, oh boy, I get to be intimate as often as I want. Right. There's actually a question on the focus inventory that says, it's question number 10. I love it. Uh, it's my ex I, I expect that our, our life of intimacy will be affected by changes in mood and da, da, da, and like three other circumstances.

And without fail women always say yes, and men always say, no, , that's nice. And you're like, welcome to male and female I love it. So we have, we have those ingredients and then there's a theological retreat, uh, over the course of the pandemic. I'm not, I don't love online marriage prep. Mm-hmm cause I say your marriage doesn't happen online.

Why should your marriage prep happen online? And there are fair enough. Of course there's circumstances, uh, couples in the military, first responders, things like that, where, where their schedule is super taxing mm-hmm mm-hmm um, but even we have workarounds for that. So every now and again, online, the theological portion of marriage prep is, is fine.

I personally meet with them about five times mm-hmm um, and then we try to send them to an in-person marriage prep retreat mm-hmm which retreat experience that centralizes on prayer that centralizes on theology of the body, but in just in my meetings with them, I always start out with, um, great. Tell me about your last big fight.

Your LBF. And you get the couples that, you know, they don't mind throwing spaghetti against the wall, to the ones that are very cute. And they're like, oh father, we never fight we, we love each other. yeah. And I'm like, great. Uh when's the last time your blood pressure was raised. right. Like we can redefine the terms here.

Yeah. But often it's the ones that quote unquote don't fight, uh, that have kind of a more sinister difficulty, cuz it looks better on paper. And sometimes if you're always walking on eggshells or you come from a place where there's a lack of freedom to be expressive, mm-hmm, , there's a lack of freedom to, um, to bring up hard things conflict, right?

Not only are people are annoying, but, but my future spouse has a darkened intellect. A weakened will. And on top of those things is gonna from time to time be selfish and then I'm going to have to suffer from that. And so do I have the skills? The reason I ask about last big fight is I don't care about the fight.

I care about teasing out. What's important because at the center of a fight is what do I love? Mm what's important to me. Yeah. And does my, does my future spouse recognize that? Am I known by him or her? And then do we have the skills to communicate that if not, then let's go through it. And if we do, do we also have the skills to forgive because there is no fight that can't strengthen the relationship.

If there's the will to do it. Mm-hmm , if there's the will to strengthen that relationship, mm-hmm, just like, how do you build muscles? You break muscle fibers. Mm-hmm by lifting heavy weights and in the breaking and the repairing with good nourishment with good sleep, with good everything else, it actually comes back stronger.

And so fights are absolutely no problem. So I start out with that and then other, uh, modules, it just depends. I have them make a genogram. Yeah, I love this part of your, which is, uh, so they come and, and it's essentially a really complicated family tree that also shows kind of emotional lines and things like that.

Who, who doesn't talk to who or who loves who, or, or whatever, mm-hmm how much. And so I say, how much divorce is going on in this? How much alcoholism, how much, um, what's, what's the economic outlook on each of these families? Because again, you're not just marrying your fiance. You're getting the whole family too marrying the family.

And this whole family was part of their marriage prep long before they showed up in father's office. Mm-hmm . Right. That's what we call the remote marriage, prep, deacon. And, and I are the proximate marriage prep. Mm-hmm, where the, like, kind of the last, the last finishers with that. And so their concept of what marriage is of what marriage looks like of how to live it on a daily basis.

Mm-hmm right. May look very different than what gets preached to the pulpit or even what they hear within our office. Yeah. We talk about the role of sexual pleasure and marriage, which is kind of awkward in my first two or three couples. but it's like, heck if I, uh, I it's no longer awkward for me, but it's one of those, like if I get all like claiming and weird, then I don't, I I'm afraid that I, I would give the impression that, you know, sex is actually like gross, sturdy and disgusting, and God only puts up with it for more babies.

Right. Right. Which is so the opposite of theology of the body. Mm-hmm yeah. It's a botanical point of view. Exactly. And so, especially even couples that have already been engaging with each other sexually. , it's a really beautiful thing for them to experience validation from the church. Not only in their desires, even if they don't have the proper forum for it yet, but also to say, this is where this, this gift from God belongs mm-hmm and this is how, how you can put it to use in a way that's spiritually fruitful.

Mm-hmm go back to NFP, go back to Johnny. Johnny doesn't most parents don't let Johnny eat an Oreo whenever he darn well pleases mm-hmm . And so the beauty of living natural family planning is there are times to come together to be intimate. There are times to not, which then makes the couple yearn for each other and has the positive result of teaching men, especially to express physical non-sexual affirmation towards their, their wives.

Right. Mm-hmm . And so there's just so much genius in the life of the church that we're seeking to, um, add there. So yeah,

no, I agree. This is a whole idea of, um, Especially when they come to us, myself and father they're, they're already been formed in a way of, of how to think. And so this, this idea of the church's desire, when we speak about remote preparation, that's preparing the couple from their family and, and them seeing their family life flourish in marriage, but more than often, that's not the case.

And, and, you know, um, this, the horrible statistics of, of divorce, which is one and two. So even the idea of what love is. Yeah. Right. And then when we speak about love, the church has a beautiful, um, grace of that, especially, you know, if we really wanna even bring in the person of Jesus Christ, that all idea of self-sacrifice for, um, his church.

And so for, for, for myself, it's, it's similar with father, of course we have, you know, a certain criteria that we have to follow. Um, but for me, I really wanna establish a relationship with him as well. Mm-hmm to know. Because they do come in thinking, well, I've got a, and the first, often our first meeting is there is some paperwork involved, so it's a, and um, and then the focus, which literally looks like a test.

Yeah. Um, uh, and even though you say it many, many times, they'll come back and say, you know, did I pass? Or how was the test? Did I, but this is, I love it. This is a beautiful thing because they do want to quantify it. Yeah. But the, the idea is cuz they haven't nine times outta 10. They haven't been married before.

And they're, they're, you know, between, uh, 20 and 30, more or less. Uh, and um, so they're entering into this relationship even though they're um, maybe living with this person mm-hmm um, they're. don't have the, they don't have the knowledge to ask those questions. Mm-hmm or even, you know, the focus again, speaks about pets and, um, how we, how we deal with those and, um, welcome them into a, the family.

So the main thing I wanna try and do is walk with them. Uh, and I want to hear their story as well. Like that the, the, the, the gene, the genealogy in the family, uh, that's encouraging. Why are they here right now? What, what brought them here? What's their story to hear? And it's not where they first met or things like that.

It said, I want a bit larger. What, like, where, what is your story? Mm. Cause that's the story you're bringing into to make your story as a couple. Right. And so we, yeah, we go through and, um, and it is such a joy to share, uh, what the church actually teaches mm-hmm because, you know, I often remind couples, you know, the church has been doing this for almost 2000 years.

Right. So she's kind of worked out a bit of stuff. Yeah. And I always speak that, you know, as we speak, as the church is feminine, it's she, as a mother, she loves us. So she's trying to work out all these kind of things to help us grow. And, um, and even sharing this idea of the church was very prudish before.

And didn't really speak about sex. I have this beautiful document from 1951 where it pop, uh, pop the 12th, I think is saying six is joyful and pleasurable and, and couples should be encouraged to engage in that. Nice boom. Yeah,

really? Yeah. And if you read anything that jump on the second road, you realize

that for sure.

And then, you know, he wrote that beautiful book, love and responsibility, and he, he actually goes into more detail into that hundred percent. And I don't know what the rating is over this podcast, but I won't go into it, but it's very explicit. But how, but also how beautiful it can be. Especially if, if a man is there to seek the good of his spouse, right.

And, and, and to seek her good and all of that. And it's beautiful that father was saying about NFP. Uh, I know even with him and I bring, I bring a lot of my own personal story into it as well. Sure. Cause I'm, I'm a convert to the faith and, um, and in my marriage as a deacon, I'm a permanent deacon. I'm married with.

Um, we, we welcome children into our family. It's been a beautiful thing, but I know, uh, when we were first engaged, my wife had to was finishing college and we didn't, we didn't wanna start a family. And so I said, when are you, when are you going on a pill? And she, and I can't do that. It's, you know, it wasn't good for us.

And so we, uh, and it was so I thought, well, we already decided we weren't gonna have children for two years. What am I gonna do? And I was a bit worried, cause I didn't even have a membership to a gym or anything like that. What am I gonna do with all this energy ? And so here it was this idea of through periodic abstinence, cuz also in a natural family planning teaches.

The actual biology of, of male and female. And it shows women often who don't even know that their fertility is a cycle. And, um, they're only actually fertile for a short period of time during that cycle. And so if they engage in sexual activity during that time, it is not an accident it's actually doing what your bodies are supposed to be doing.

Sure. Uh, if a baby comes. And so here, that idea of abstaining during, during that short period of time, like, and again, it literally changes the brain chemistry. Mm-hmm of a man to, to abstain and, and desire intimacy of often through nonsexual touch it. It enables a man and a to phrase it in the way of it actually changes his gaze towards his wife.

Mm. He sees her. as her, as she's supposed to be seeing mm-hmm, not as, uh, uh, an object of his last, an object of his arousal. And so these beautiful things, we try and, um, speak to them, but often that's a new language. Yeah. As well. I was actually just finishing a class last night and a guy, uh, put up his hand.

He said, everyone keeps talking about sacraments. What are they? So for a Catholic it's like, yeah, we know what sacraments is. I know there's more than three, but, you know, um, um, and so we had to, so I actually had to once again, realize some of the language that we're even using. And so it's walking with them, enables them and hearing their story.

It's um, I'm able to, you know, um, hear what their Lang, what language they're actually speaking. So we can bring, um, this idea of marriage prep into it. Mm-hmm . Um, but it's also speaking the truth as well. I, um, it, hopefully they've walking with them. They've realized that I'm kind of a logical and normal person.

Even though my therapist says otherwise, you, weren't supposed to say that loud. Yeah. Oh yeah. Sorry. But I also, you know, if I, I, I often use the phrase, I say, if you are getting married and the church says that marriage is this, then it can't be something else. And so what you are doing is in itself very, very sacred mm-hmm

And so this is why we are encouraging to work very hard at it, but it's must and people say marriage is hard work. Yeah. It's good work. I mean, it's, it's good work. Yeah. If we are willing to be that gift to the other person. Yeah. So it's really just encouraging 'em to get into that mindset as they move along.

So that, and I also, and so my goal is I, yeah, I'll, I'll get you ready for the day mm-hmm right. We'll do all the stuff that we need to do for the day for the ceremony. That's no problem, but that is not my goal. And I say to them, my goal is old and wrinkly. because that's where it is. Um, and so, and I say, you know, yes, you, you wanna stay married until death, but if you have that goal, at least you'll be close.

Beautiful. Thank you both. And so basically what I'm hearing is marriage prep is in a way training, let's say at least the last part of training to prepare people, to hopefully have a beautiful, loving, successful marriage. And you're going through all the different things that the church teaches, which through its 2000 years around, um, in existence, it's learned that these are the things that help people have like really beautiful marriages that stay true to the nature of the human person.

Any final thoughts on that before we

move on? Well, I think that, um, like you were talking about screens in our culture more and more today is marriage is under threat or marriage is, uh, is at risk. Um, because there are so many distractions and even if a simple thing of having screen free evenings can really bring greater intimacy to a couple.

And so that idea of recognizing that we are entering into a, a relationship that is not actually supported by our culture. And so therefore we have to be more attentive to each other.

And I think the, the beauty of marriage prep is even just on a natural level. So apart from the fact that we're preparing the couple to receive the grace of God, we're inviting them to begin to pray with each other.

If, if they've never done it before, or I love marriage prep with, uh, a Protestant and a Catholic, cause then you say, all right, why don't we close in prayer? And the Protestant can just say, all right, father, God, we just come before you right now. And we, they, they can just dive right in. Yeah. And the Catholic's like,

um, father, son

hail Mary full of grace.

The Lord is with me. Right. And because again, expressive prayer is vulner. it, it puts myself out there and it, and it, but it invites we're. What we're trying to do is invite their, their relationship, uh, with God and with each other to both grow closer, which, you know, that's an image of a triangle as the two points grow up the line to reach the top point.

They also grow closer to one another God being the top, God being the top being the two ends. Yep. Yep. And so, uh, so you have that by way of grace, but even for those who are not religious or those who have left the church, I just, I always say, find a therapist or find someone who's willing to fight for the good of your, of your relationship, because you both are flawed and that's indisputable.

Oh yeah. Right. And so ha to have. We, you know, we call it a transcendent third God, uh, and then mediated by the church and mediated by, you know, priest, deacons, uh, lay faithful. But even if someone doesn't feel that they have access to the church in that regard to find just another person, again, a therapist or someone else who can just poke to find the tender spots of the relationship and mediate, good, helpful, fruitful communication between the two of those.

That's a great step forward. And then later, if they seek the grace of the, that the church desires to offer again in freedom, not because grandmother, you know, will pay for the photographer or because of a Catholic guilt trip that they just need to get it done in the church, but the free choice to say yeah.

So to have to have another walk with the couple, no matter their circumstance, mm-hmm is just gonna be powerful and that's open to everybody.

Yeah, no, beautiful. It, it makes so much sense. And you two have obviously worked with a lot of different couples. I'm curious. I, I kind of asked this question before, but I wanna hear if you have anything to add to it, what do you see as the main cause of dysfunction and divorce?

Uh, so the couples, hopefully listening right now, whether they're married, engaged, dating can work against those things. Those factors. Again, you touched on this before. I'm just curious, like, what are those main causes of dysfunction divorce that we can fight?

Dicken. Yeah. That idea of, you know, if we go back to that piece of description naked, without shame is, is, am, cuz my emotions are gonna come and I'm gonna be angry, frustrated, joyful, happy, sad.

Um, and, but how do I, um, come before the other person, um, still, you know, we use the language still seeking their beauty and their dignity. Right. But, but I'm but being, allowing myself to have those emotions mm-hmm and so that idea of, I, I, I like to use the analogy of having two, two, um, French doors, I suppose, on your, on your, on your heart.

Is that how you said this? um, and just having those open. Right. And so somebody can just look in and, uh, so the, and, and often we don't have the skills for that. I, I say to couple straight away, communication is a skill, um, entering into these kind of moments of reflection is a skill and being used to that.

And so, um, yeah, and, and walking with the church, there are, there are a deacons priest there's lay faithful, but if they're not, there is walking with a counselor, uh, to, to have those moments of vulnerability and growing in that it's not because that their marriage is struggling, that they need a counselor as they need a counselor to keep their marriage strong.

Right. And these ideas of growing in that skill. And I, uh, also that muscle memory of being able to share who I am, or having, even having, even having moments. It comes back that whole functionality of a, of a, um, of a couple, you know, I'm, I'm tired. So I'm gonna sit in front of, um, I don't know, what is it now?

Instagram? What's the latest one. Yeah. Tick TOK, tick TOK, right? Tick. Oh my goodness. Gracious. but sit in front of there for three hours cuz I deserve it. I've had a hard day. Yeah, right. Rather than being intentional than in, um, seeking a relationship with, with my spouse. Um, and so cause when we talk about priorities, um, for a Christian marriage's God, so you can, you know, you can say lovingly to your wife, you're number two and my life' sweetheart.

Right. Um, but this idea of is my spouse, the top priority mm-hmm in, in, in my. in my life. Yeah. Right. And it's, it's that idea of being able to work intentionally and it's not something we can get lazy at as well. Yeah. And I think that's where easy to do it is easy to do cuz it's, it's tough work and um, but it's, I keep reminding if it's a good work, it's worth it, right?

Yeah. If we were, if we had to get up every day and um, I don't know, press a button or do a certain exercise to maintain world peace, we would do it. Right. Mm-hmm sure. Even though it was tough sometimes, and it's the same thing with the relationship and I, and, and once again, going back to the idea of having divorces an option as well right now, I'm not, of course we can immediately go to those extreme examples where you church is never saying, you know, tough it out or learn to, you know, keep your, keep your, keep your hands up.

Yeah. Don't

don't like continue to be abused, like get to safety. That's

of course. should, but it's these, like when we're talking about, uh, people who are reasonable and, and still discovering what love is, it's, it's actually taking the time that maybe, I don't know, and I still wanna discover it, but with you,

yeah, in that sense, one, uh, one myth, I think that's out there to, you touched on it already is this idea that if we really love each other, if we're really good for each other, then marriage should be easy.

Like it's almost as if things should just fall into place. Cuz we love each other. And I think the experience of falling in love can give that illusion, especially cuz it's really easy in the beginning of your relationship. Everything's great. and then, you know, you realize that you're both human, you're broken, you have flaws, you get annoyed, you know, you get angry, you get whatever.

Um, but we even see that with, you know, psychologists and the data that's showing there is a, there's a couple goes through a cycle. Any long term committed relationship. Mm-hmm they say we call it marriage. Right? We'll go through it. Uh, uh, a time where they're just. Don't like the other person. Yeah. Right.

I, I have no feelings of love towards you. And, but that is a natural and healthy thing in, in, in a couple relationship and recognizing that is being able to, okay. We freely go, um, um, desire to enter into this relationship. We, we, um, we know that love is not a feeling, it's a choice. So today I'm gonna choose to love you.

And I'm gonna manifest that through my actions. Yeah. And so this idea is, and, and that the data seems to show once again, the, the data is the data that normally happens about three to five years into a marriage. Mm wow. And if you look at the divorce statistics, it's extremely similar. Yeah. Yeah.

That makes so much sense.

So, so it is, we need to learn these skills. It's not just a matter of like, oh, we feel really good about each other. We love each other. And. The emotional sense, not the action sense of the word. So father, I'm just curious from your point of view, anything to add to that, and what do you see as like at the root of a lot of dysfunction divorce?

Yeah.

In additional, uh, similar, similar to what deacon said. I think it's, um, an unwillingness to ask for help. Mm-hmm right. How many, how many people do their own taxes anymore? Very few. They ask for help from, you know, software companies to people, right? Yeah. Who gives we, we also live in a culture where you can't prescribe yourself medical stuff, even if you are a doctor, right?

Yeah. So we live in a society where you're interdependent on pretty much everything that you have to go to an expert for someone, something else. Right. Mm-hmm go to lawyers, but in order for 'em to be lawyers, they have to pass the bar. There's a certain kind of preparation, right? Why do we not do this with marriage?

Why do we not bring our marriage up for a certain kind of maintenance? Right. Why do couples not take the day off of work for their anniversary? And say, let's spend the day together. Wow. Intimately or hash it out or whatever it is. And it's, you know, we will say busy, busy, busy mm-hmm . I once gave a, a, a marriage homely series up at my former parish.

And I started out with, we live in a culture that does not tolerate broken cars. We live in a culture where you're pretty much guaranteed to have a car mm-hmm right. There are gas stations everywhere. There are, uh, mechanics everywhere. And the way that this country is set up so far apart, and we're not a very ambulatory culture, we pretty much guarantee that you can get access to a car.

Why not? But again, the maintenance, the fueling, why do we not do that with marriage? What's the kind of maintenance required for holy Mamo. If we change the oil every three to six months, what's the equivalent of that in holy Mamo. If we fuel up once or twice a week, what's the equivalent of that in holy matrimony, mm-hmm would that we were a culture that didn't tolerate the failure of marriages.

Amen. Cause we don't tolerate the failure of cars, but cars require upkeep. So to, uh, marriages. And so I think it's the, it's the question of the question on people's mind. And this is the goal of marriage. Prep is to move the, if we'll stay together to how will will we stay together? Mm-hmm because when people, you don't need to actually know how you'll stay together, you don't know what the economy's gonna do 10 years from now.

You don't know what jobs are gonna be like, you don't know what, you know, kid number two is gonna be in relation to kid. Number one, mm-hmm you, but all you need is moral certitude to say, I believe that God is faithful. I believe that I have the will. Uh, there was a point at which we were totally in love with each other.

Mm. feeling is not everything. And so it's not the question of, if we'll stay together, that's gotta be off the table. Mm it's. How will we stay together? And then that how begs a willingness to seek help. Wow. Therapists, family, community. And I think we have to destigmatize just like we've unfortunately destigmatized, uh, well, we don't love stigmas, so, um, but we've, destigmatized, uh, divorce, but we need to destigmatize marital issues, marital problems.

Right. Would that a couple could just go to another couple in church and say, can we come over tonight? Like we're having a really tough time that, and just vulnerably say, you know, I'm, we're hurting. Not just I'm hurting mm-hmm right. Wow. And we don't need to shovel out blame on anyone again, everyone's got a bro.

A weekend will darkened intellect. Mm-hmm uh, everyone's got their own sin. So of course this is gonna come up. So let's create a culture where we don't tolerate the failure of marriages. So good. If

people wanna listen to those homilies, how do they do

that? I can send you the audio recordings. Okay. We'll put it in the show.

Now. There

you go. Sounds good. Is it it's on YouTube or

no? Uh, not from my former parish. That was okay. The pre pandemic reality of the church, the post pandemic reality with the church. What is live streaming? Yes, exactly.

we, we upgraded the tech of the church. Yeah. I wanna shift gears a little bit. There's so much we could talk about that forever, but I'm curious when it comes to

so

pretty.

I just want to just segue back to that go. Yeah. The other thing I think when we talk about pressure on marriage is, um, and I'm gonna talk about Hollywood as a general thing, but the idea of, um, marriage does the dissolution of marriage or divorce has become something more of a. A thing to aspire to almost, or even promote it, like, yeah.

So, you know, of course we'll get back together, but it's, it's some kind of a drama. And I think the, um, as society we've adhered too much to that to think of as, as truth. Hmm. Rather than just entertainment. Um, but even then entertainment, you know, going back to what father was saying to even not tolerate, um, divorce.

Yeah. Um, this idea where Hollywood has really permeated our culture and the more and more we have screens, the more and more it is gonna be harder to challenge that.

No. And when we say not tolerate, I don't wanna set up this, like yeah. Grin and bear it, you must suffer and you have to stay. Right. Yeah. But again, so the support systems, what I'm advocating for is the support systems, right.

There are, the church does have an annulment process because she does envision humanity will contract invalid marriages. Sure. Which will. More than like more than like more likely than not result in divorce result in dysfunction. Sure. And actually the annulment process, although this is a different podcast, is its own salutary healing.

Mm-hmm , uh, process as well in view of if one or both parties wants to get married again for the second time, naturally speaking, but married for the first time. Sacramentally speaking. Sure. Because again, declaration that the marriage never rose to the level of the sacrament, the natural marriage never rose to the level of a sacrament mm-hmm

But when I say we don't want to tolerate divorce, I just wanna make sure people don't hear we're Catholic. You have to be stuck in the relationship. You have to stick it out. God wills, your unhappiness. God wants your misery. Uh, because, because people who are hurting can hear certain things. Yeah. And just, and, and it hits them in a certain way.

And that's not God desires our happiness, the church desires our happiness. Yeah. We pursue that through the pursuit of holiness and the life in Jesus Christ mean, thanks for clarifying

that. And yeah. So anyone listening right now, and maybe you're in an abusive marriage, maybe it's not safe. What we always say in this show and what the church says is get to safety.

And as father was saying, there's a reason, reason for the annulment process, perhaps your marriage ISN invalid. But I think that the default really needs to be, it's like, even if civilly, we need to put up barriers between one spouse and another, because not safe for that spouse and the children. Yep.

There's a difference between the civil marriage and the Sacramento or the natural marriage bond, which is a deeper reality. And so I think it's some of the most heroic people I know are the ones who maybe perhaps do have a valid marriage. One of the spouses just went off the deep. and the other one, they obviously can't be together because it's not safe or some extreme dysfunction.

Maybe one of them is being unfaithful. And just continuing that lifestyle, you obviously should not live together in that case. But the most rogue people, I think I've seen are the ones who are, have been deserted have been abandoned. And even in the case of a valid marriage, they say true to their wedding vows, even though their spouse isn't yeah.

I have so much admiration for those people. I don't know. That's such suffering and that's a really difficult thing, but I think that gets to the core of like, this is how serious we take these wedding vows.

Amen. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And I have many examples of that and it's, I'm sure I agree. I agree with the word heroic.

Absolutely. Yeah,

absolutely. Lots to say on that one. I hope we covered it. Okay. Um, when it comes to, uh, leading people through marriage prep, um, leading, you know, marriages overall guiding them, where do you think we're failing young couples in particular when it comes to marriage overall and especially marriage

prep.

Where are we failing the couples in their marriage? Prep?

Yeah. Marriage prep. And then marriage overall, like you guys have already touched on a lot of this, I think, but it's like, what can we be doing better? Where are we failing them? The second question is like, what can we be doing better? But the first one is like, where are we?

Especially as a Catholic church, like not doing our part to build up these marriages and even prepare people for marriages. Cuz one, one of the problems that I see is like, you know, we go through marriage prep and then it's kind of like, see you guys like good luck, you know, hopefully you make it. And that's honestly just somewhat of a practical thing.

I think where you guys like there's so few resources and there's so few priests. And so I think that's a practical issue, but, um, but I think that's like one area where it's like, okay, we can have lay people step up. Mm-hmm to, you know, and there's some good initiative going on. I don't wanna say that it's dark everywhere, but um, yeah, I'm just curious, like what, what do you see as like, we really are failing

here and here.

Hmm. Yeah. I would say, um, let me answer it obliquely. I think there's a narrative. I think there's an unhelpful narrative that priests are busy. We have a lot to do, but by the way, a priest chooses to pray and to live his life that determines whether he has a spirit of frantic busyness or not. Hmm. Having an occupied schedule is different than busy.

And so many people come up to the priest father. I know you're so busy, but, or, and, or, or they don't come up to the priest because they fear that he's busy. Mm-hmm, uh, many things priests can't always control what comes their way, but we can almost always control when it comes our way minus the prescheduled things.

Right? Sure. We can, you know, reschedule this funeral or this meeting or this whatever. And so I think one way in which the church sometimes does fail people is the inaccessibility of priests. Interesting. Um, one of the, the things that I've chosen to do in my priesthood is to meet with my couples five times each.

And if, you know, if I've got a couple, if I'm marrying a, a decent amount of couples in a year, that's a, a number of, of meetings. Mm. But at the same time, how often do I, I eat dinner every night. Sure. Right. Why not combine that? And so, so for me, it's to have couples feel like they have access to a priest in their preparatory time, and then they can come back and say, father, we need help.

Mm. Or father, whatever it is. I did marriage prep, um, for a couple who their first child, uh, has, was born with down syndrome. Mm. It was a very kind of difficult time for them in terms of reg gaging their expectations. Yeah. But it was a really beautiful thing to be able to try to reach out to them and to make sure they know the church is there for them.

But only that, that only happens when we're historically walking with people. Mm-hmm, when we're setting it up. And so I, I think one of the things I'd point to is to just make sure that priests. And deacons the, the, the hierarchy, the, the clergy of the church that, that were with the people mm-hmm, , uh, that were with the couples of marriage pet.

Because unfortunately, a lot of times you have, you know, go see this NFP person, go see this couple, and then you go meet with father once before the wedding mm-hmm and then father's like, okay, where did you meet? What's your love song? I'm just trying to craft the homily fear wedding. Yeah. But we have so much, and maybe that's, that's what I'm pointing to.

We have so much riding on the wedding day and the wedding day is like a fairly darn easy day of your marriage, right? Oh yeah. Everything's prescheduled some people have coordinators, right. If something goes wrong, someone else is gonna take care of it. Everyone's there for you, right. Yeah. Two weeks later.

Not everyone's necessarily there for you, right? Yeah. In the same way. Sure. And so, um, I, I want married couples to know that the church is there for them in the brokenness of their marriage. um, because I have, I have other priests, brother priests that are there for the brokenness in my priesthood. Yeah.

Right. And I need that support because we all have our own brokenness. And so for the, I think for people to hear it from the church more it's okay to be hurting. It's okay. To be broken mm-hmm and it's okay to reach out for help. It's okay. To ask a priest, to ask a deacon, to ask a counselor, a Catholic counselor, whatever it is.

Mm-hmm because otherwise, if we just, you know, PR around that, everything's fine. Well, I don't know, pick up a newspaper. And do you tell me? Yeah, no. So true.

DEA Dicken, you know, I agree. And that I think, um, the idea of when we talk about marriage, prayer, but it, it obviously there's a process that you have to follow cause you are working towards a date.

And, um, and often a couple comes to us. They've they're nine times out to him. They they've pretty much got a date booked already. Mm-hmm right. Um, and so they're trying to work in with that. And I think where the church is probably failing, is that, is that process approach or convey? I, I call it a conveyor belt.

We don't want to drop the couple on the beginning of the conveyor belt. And then when they drop off the end it's we are done with them. Yeah. And we try and because, you know, we, when we talk about this term remote preparation, there's often, there's not that. preparation for their life together. That's been really engaged in by their own family that encouraging them to live this life.

Um, and it's beautiful when that it does happen, but not, not very, not very often. So the church often wants to really shove it a whole lot of information into the couples. Yeah. Where did you? Can't it's a very intense year for them anyway, or sure. Or, or, or eight, eight to nine months or whatever it is of preparation and it's, it's too much.

And so this idea of, um, not really journeying with them, but throwing them on a conveyor belt or putting 'em into a process and then out there go. Yeah. And so

at my previous parish, I had a, a couple from another parish approach. Me and their marriage prep was comprised of read COSTI canoe, be this document from 1931 read, uh, familiars consortium.

Beautiful. But, but essentially read, read these three people documents, uh, and if you print them all out there, it's, you know, like hundreds, a hundred and something pages. um, which that's thick and you gotta be a little trained to read, uh, documents. You can't just pick one up. Um, cuz they all connect to each other in, in a web and no one had been talking with them about their communication.

It was, do you go to Sunday mass mm-hmm it was, do you do, do you, you know, it was kind of checkbox Catholicism mm-hmm on the spiritual

end of things primarily, right? Uh, yeah, yeah, no human level, which is uh, where I see marriages falling apart. It's like the human

level stuff. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so I, they, you know, they had heard that I meet with couples and they're like, father, would you meet with us?

And again, you know, busy, but. , that's not the narrative I wanna live out of. And so, um, it's not just kind of reading theology. It's not just, yeah, there is a process. Uh, we do want them to be informed of their consent and things like that. Sure. Uh, but also to walk, to walk alongside them. Okay.

Yeah. And so that's, that's where it is.

And, um, and failing to have that relationship. Right. Because if, you know, we, the next question is what can we do better? Is that idea of community mm-hmm and generally Catholics. We're not that great at it. Yeah. Our idea of community on Sunday, Mar

unless there's coffee

and donuts, coffee, donuts . But, but even, you know, during the actual, our time of celebration, maybe we'll give a, a slight smile to someone.

Yeah. And it was great drink COVID right. Cuz we didn't even have to do that cuz we had masks on and so the idea of community, right. Um, is, is how can we, uh, I think we're failing on that as well. Generally I know this, some parishes always and a lot of church communities are very intentional about it, but I think overall it's.

Catholic

thing. Yeah, no, I would agree with that. It is sad along those lines. I'm curious. I wanna hone in on people who come from broken families in particular. So you have people in your marriage prep, or maybe one or both of the, uh, fiances that come from a broken family. I'm curious, like what, what can we do to better help them, um, in their marriage prep so that they have these successful marriages?

Cuz one of the things that we see so often is that they end up repeating the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in their own lives and so sad. So obviously we wanna help them, uh, prevent them from going down that path. But we also want them to thrive and have really beautiful marriages. So what can we do for, what do you think we can do for those people in particular, who come from broken families when they're going through marriage?

I'd say, um, one of the processes by which I was formed in, in seminary. Um, we have a great seminary here St. John Biani. Yeah. In my seven years throughout it, uh, we start with a spirituality year and it's a year of no classes. Uh, sorry. We take classes. There's no grades. So the type a, you know, go-geters, they're foiled cuz now they have to learn for the sake of learning.

Yeah. As opposed to kind of performing right. Huh? Uh there's no, um, we don't have phones, radio, anything. Right. So no technology and it, and it, it, it takes us out of our element and then this threefold process that they, that they gave us, which is both for the year and for the duration of our time in seminaries, self-knowledge, self-acceptance self gift in light of the Lord.

Well, right. So it's not just making myself better so that I can do better so that I can be better so that, you know, as if I can get kingdom of heaven points that way. But instead. do I understand, uh, where I came from, the factors in my life, the Ignatian way is be aware, understand, take action. Mm-hmm so they're very similar.

And so just having an awareness of what's my relationship with my dad mm-hmm and then bringing my, my spouse, my future spouse into that. Mm. Um, cuz they're gonna be together in the same room for Thanksgiving at some point. Right. So, so be aware or, or self knowledge, right. That's why we have in the life of the church, the exam in prayer, which is not just for, you know, listing your sins.

So you can go to confession and, uh, and do that. But understanding who I am in light of the Lord, my weaknesses, my difficulties. so that I can invite my fiance in further, uh, into my life. Mm-hmm , uh, and to be a part, a mechanism of my own healing, not just behavior management, but so that I have an interior freedom when I'm around someone who reminds me of my mom or dad when at a very broken time in our family life.

Right. Mm-hmm that, that, uh, the freedom of, um, of just being me with, uh, with deficiencies mm-hmm yeah, that that'd be one thing I would pause it. Okay.

yeah. And that's I, even the language that we use when we speak about love a lot in the church mm-hmm and when we come from broken families, that idea of what love actually is.

Um, and so trying to go even deeper into that and to, and so love is, um, being able to seek the good of the other as the church would say, but how do I do it in my brokenness? How do I, uh, as a fallen person and, and moving away from. the idea of what I think perfection and his love, but, um, working towards that, um, I'm gonna make these steps today.

Mm-hmm , but I know I, I I'm far from it, but, um, and the more, and I think the other thing father was touching on, um, is the more that I'm able to be vulnerable. Um, the more the other person can love me. Mm-hmm right. The more the other person knows about me and my brokenness, the more than they can actually love me.

And often we operate out of fear. Sure. Because we've come from broken families and we've whatever, you know, um, we try to manage our parents and that didn't work out and those kind of things. And, and so I need to try and manage what I'm doing here, but rather than just being vulnerable towards the other person, which does require a lot of human.

skill building in a way. Yeah. So that I can have that muscle memory to say, look, I'm really frustrated today, you know? Yeah. And, um, and in this situation and, um, and not, and, and, and not expect a backlash, but, uh, for the other person to receive what you are saying as well, you know, um, yeah, cuz that's where, you know, the term escalation or arguments is where somebody said, oh, I'm just feeling really annoyed when you, when you win, when you said that and that immediately straightaway gets the heckles up and yeah.

Rather than saying, oh, okay. So what, instead of the skill of maybe paraphrasing what I hear or something like that. And uh, so it, and, but it's actually learning what love is for us as a couple mm-hmm because it coming from a broken culture, a broken family it's is very confusing. And you know, I remember hearing a story and, um, you know, somebody came from extremely abusive, uh, family and, and talking about love was the opposite of what.

You know, even the remote thought, you know, uh, what love was. And so being able to think, well, this is actually how you're called to live in and it's okay. It's okay for you. Uh, and you are worth it. Mm-hmm right. And all this stuff. And just to say, you know, that I can be this with this other person mm-hmm and it, it takes, it's a skill.

Like we grow in that idea of communication. It's not, you know, as a, as a deacon or a priest, it's not the idea of spirit, you know? Um, it's just not a SP spirit thing, but it's a, it's a training ground where we can become more spiritual, so to speak. Mm-hmm sure. Yeah. so to speak. Sure. Yeah. So it's that idea of about knowing who I am growing and who I am so that I can be who I am for, for someone

else.

So good. Thank you. It's funny when you were mentioning, um, you know, you said the word frustrated, that's one of two words that I ban in my office. uh, frustrated and interesting. Cause those are two words that we as Americans tend to hide behind. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and you know, so a couple will come in and be like, well, I went to his home, uh, met his parents and it was really interesting.

and then they'll move on and almost always that's, there's something negative going on. Yeah. It's like, great. Do you have the vulnerability to voice your frictional points of contact with your future mother or father-in-law mm-hmm with the one whom you love, who is supposed to be one of the safest places for your heart to reside that relationship hundred percent.

And so we jump, I jump on those two words, interesting or, or frustrated and say, awesome. Beautiful. I think I know what you're saying. And then I reach into the drawer and I pull out an emotion chart. Nice. So if you're at home listening, you can just Google emotion chart, PDF, and there'll be a number of good ones that come up and then you.

pick two or three other words that point to cuz again, entering into the vulnerability of this is the reality of your family. And this is how I feel mm-hmm and there's no truth that could come up in a relationship. That's going to just like break it off just because I feel a certain way. Yeah. Yeah. It's an unwillingness for you to receive my feelings or what comes up in me or the reactions or it's an unwillingness for me to share them and then, you know, 20 years of bottling and at some point that thing's gonna explode.

Yeah. Right. So that's the other kind of, that's the, the part of marriage prep where it's, doesn't matter if you're from a broken family or a great family, there's going to be pinch points. There's gonna be pain points. Do you have in confidence and trust the ability to vocalize that, uh, to share that in intimacy because there's a verbal intimacy, which isn't always just poetry and flowers.

Interesting. .

Yeah, no, that's so good. I, yeah, those human skills are so big. That's definitely where I think a lot of people from broken families are lacking and you're right too, that even if you come from an intact family, you can be lacking in a lot of these skills. But I know, um, for me, learning to navigate conflict was just so difficult.

Cause I saw it handled so poorly in my family mm-hmm so I had no idea how to go about it. I maybe picked up some things along the way that I should be doing, but it's so different when you're in the amids of a maybe heated argument. And how do you still be respectful and get your point across, but you know, still love the person that you're engaging with.

So th there's a lot there, but those human skills I think are so needed. And one of the most helpful things, um, for me, was just seeing, spending time with like really beautiful marriages, like really healthy marriages. And that's something that I talk about a lot, something that I'm a huge proponent of is like, if you know a marriage couple that.

Has a really beautiful marriage, like go have dinner with them, like help 'em around, help 'em out around the house. Like just kind of soak in the beauty of their family. And, uh, that's been beyond healing for me. So in the last few minutes that we have together, just wanna get your advice. So what, what advice, what encouragement would you give to, uh, leaders of marriage prep who are listening right now, uh, who want to improve their marriage prep programs?

Deacon, we'll start with

you.

So I, I think the biggest thing at the moment we are living in a world that is very, very different from maybe where the leaders have come from. And I think this idea of relationship is, is really needs to be fostered. Now, if you are gonna engage with a couple, um, who are wanting to be married, is do I have the, um, the team or, or the availability to, to journey and walk with this couple mm-hmm, not to the date of their marriage, but in the, into their marriage as well.

And so this idea of am I gonna journey with them so that we can share, you know, all the things that we need to share with them, whatever protocol there is, um, that is established, but this idea of I can be with you, right. That idea of relationship. And then the other thing of course is, as I mentioned before, was how can we really encourage community mm-hmm right.

This idea of, um, as a young married couple or a newly weird couple regard, regardless of their age, am I able to be in a, um, Context or a supportive community where I can be vulnerable as well, to a certain extent, you know, and, and share the hardships that I'm dealing with and, and also understand that people are, uh, experience probably experiencing them as well.

So that idea of relationship and journey I think is really important rather than the convey about, of, um, analogy of popping them on and seeing them later.

Yeah, no. So good father and say it's over theologizing and over psychologizing amen. um, it's not all God, and it's not all, I don't know. Sigmund Freud, right?

Yeah. Anyone on the Myers Briggs can marry anyone else on the Myers Briggs. There is no test, right? That's why the focus inventory is an inventory. There is no test that can guarantee anything. Mm-hmm . And so I think some marriage prep. Uh, retreats or people involved with marriage prep can say, gosh, well, I, I, they get uncomfortable with the Jesus part.

And so they go all communication or they go all self-help relational, self-help whatever. And they become experts in this isn't and that isn't and codependency and whatever else as if there is a book or a psychological framework or structured, that's just gonna solve humanity or brokenness an algorithm.

An exa. Yeah. Thank you. That'd be nice. And so we don't need to be solved. We need to be saved by Jesus, but at the same time, it's not all, God, God respects our free will. God respects our very poor decisions, but he'll always rush to our aid. And so I think for those involved in marriage prep, Not just making it all about prayer.

Although I don't, I haven't seen it to be too much all about prayer. Mm-hmm um, maybe sometimes all about just theology, theology, you know, here's, I've seen that. Yeah, really intense, um, you know, theological terms and, and, you know, get that memorized it in your head mm-hmm but for what right. What we want is the couple, to be able to say, Jesus, we need you spouse.

I need you, others. I need you mm-hmm . And to ha to just sit there in that, in that vulnerability. And so that may have been to the thing that we started about the, the Steubenville divorce rate. It, there could be a supposition that, that God's just gonna save my marriage as opposed to no, God may work through mediaries that he's put in place to draw me into greater vulnerability.

Right. Mm-hmm why, why does God just not zap sins away on the spot? Right. I, I go confess my sins straight to God. He mediates through a priest. He mediates through the life of the church because priests can draw somebody's will more efficaciously within the sacrament of confession. It's the difference between saying, well, I know I lie.

And so I'm just gonna tell God and whatever, and then vulnerably saying it to a priest and saying, I lie. And then, and then you run the risk of the priest, maybe asking you about it. Right. And then the vulnerable intimacy of that. Right. So, okay. Where am I going with this? Not over psychologizing or theologizing that, that it's, um, we're trying to draw couples to be able to seek God, to seek each other, to seek others mm-hmm and then trust that God will be involved in it.

Mm-hmm but it's not all him. That's a heresy called occasional where God we're, you know, we're all just kind of puppets in his thing and he's just making everything happen. Mm-hmm right. Uh, God allows things to play out, uh, in his Providence, he guides its course, but he allows us to. mess up at least his plan A's mm-hmm and, uh, but then he always comes to the rescue as well, if we, but seek him.

Hmm,

beautiful. I've heard it said that God feeds the birds, but he doesn't, uh, put the worms in the nest. nice. Like we need to go out and put the work in before I ask you as the final question. Uh, if people wanna reach out to you, maybe they do work in an archdiocese or at a parish, and they're doing marriage prep and they'd love to kind of learn from each of you.

How can they contact you?

So I'm actually on the archdiocese website. Uh, you can contact me at, um, deacon.Coleman@archedin.org G or my no, actually my office number as well. Cuz we wanna have a relationship 3 0 3 7 1 5 3 2 5 9.

We'll put those in the show notes as well. Great. And then my email is father Daniel MPV, denver.org.

That's for most precious blood that's I'm the parish of which I'm pastor father Daniel, M P B denver.org. Thank you

both. And it's just been such a pleasure sitting with you. The final question, you guys get the final word on this, uh, father, we'll start with you. What advice would you give to that couple listening right now?

Cause there's a lot of couples listening to this, um, who maybe sees marriage prep as kind of this like necessary thing, this checklist, like how can, what would you encourage them to do in order to like really invest in it?

Mm yeah. Yeah. So just like I talked about, we can have a narrative of priests are busy.

We can also have a narrative that paperwork is inherently bad or checklists are inherently bad. Mm. They can be misunderstood or misused. But behind every paper, uh, within most paperwork is actually a, a really important reality. And the reason it's been turned into a form, or the reason it's been turned into something is there's some important conversation that ought to happen within that.

Right? And so you have this, the MB form for us that, that parents have to testify that their, their kids are marrying freely and that they haven't been married before. And it can be a little bit of a hassle, right? You, especially non-Catholic parents are supposed to go and, um, get this for, bring it to a priest.

And so, you know, I just had this the other day, a non-practicing unbaptized brother of a guy who's gonna marry a Catholic, you know, came to my church and said, Hey, I need this form signed. And it was just a really good five minute conversation to say, okay, is your brother marrying freely? What's the relationship like.

Has, you know, has he been married before? Good. He hasn't. Okay. He's free to marry, but is he doing so freely? Right? Mm-hmm and then I can kind of insert truths into this guy's life that he can be there for his brother, not just looking good and wedding photos, but actually being present to his brother's marriage.

And so there's, there's a couple ways of going about forms. You can just sign it and say, this is a hassle, or you can say, why does the church ask me to do this? Why does the church ask me to take this inventory? Why does the church ask me to, to do NFP? Why does the church, why does the church wanna know all these details for the sake of love?

because love is the reason for which we do anything. And sometimes we forget that. And so there, marriage prep process is not a bunch of hoops to jump through behind every form behind every piece of paper is an important conversation. And just because that important conversation doesn't get tactfully had doesn't mean the church is just like feeding off of paper and trying to force people to do stuff.

Yeah. And, uh, even segueing off that, um, first to leaders, right. Um, who are gonna be welcoming, this is to welcome the couples, right? Cause often when we talk about forms and all this, ah, so to actually welcome and take time to welcome them and then receive them and, and often couples are put off by that by, by, you know, by.

Picking up the phone and they get someone who is okay, what, what do you want? Um, and so for couples, I, I see this as a time, if you are, I don't think anybody has, uh, a plan in themselves today, you know, in three to five years, we're, we'll, we're gonna, re-look at this we'll reassess, you know, do the pros and cons.

And typically when a couple is wanting to get married, they're in it for life. Right. Um, even though all the, all of the stuff that we've talked about, so what I encourage couples to do, and especially if you are a couple of faith is to pray together, but I dunno how to figure it out or Google it. How can I pray with my spouse?

I'm pretty sure there's something on there. Um, and then the other thing, if you are a person of faith, and if you're Catholic, I, I, I say go to church, right. Go and, and, and to, but I say, don't just go, I want you to go meet someone. Right. And that's the person of Jesus Christ. Um, and I also say that I, and try and find out father's middle name.

right. Cuz you have to have a conversation cuz you can't Google that. And so it's, it's, it's those kind of little things, but, and also to be part of the seek now to be part of the community, like try and engage yourself, if you're able to whatever gifts they have. And then the last one is, is, um, are, are you choosing to be faithful to each other?

Of course, of course. Are you able to practice that now? Right. Cuz faithfulness is uh, more unfaithful as we say is I, I just say, quite frankly, it's having sex with someone who's not your husband or your wife and you don't wanna be in the practice of that before you're married, right. It's not a habit to have.

And so I encourage 'em to be faithful. So taking that time to step away, even what culture is saying today, but step away and say, can we as a couple, not engage in sexual activity or I say any genital activity, cuz you have to be pretty specific. This, this idea of can I truly love this other person in this way?

Because in doing those things, three things often helps him to grow into a deeper intimacy, uh, as well.

Yeah, it's not that the church is against a bunch of stuff. We're for a bunch of stuff. Mm love. Especially,

thanks so much for listening to the end. I know that was a long conversation, but if you wanna learn more about some of the things we talked about, like natural family planning, we've linked two resources in the show notes. One is a booklet called pure intimacy in the other is a talk called green sex.

Both are excellent. And I highly recommend that you check them out. And if you're curious about learning how to pray, we've linked a few resources in the show notes as well. Some YouTube videos and books to help you on that topic. Now, if you want practical tips on how to build a great marriage, we have a free guide for you because we all desire loved it last.

But if we're honest, most of us don't know how to build this. Especially if we come from broken families and to make matters worse, we're often discouraged by the prevalence of divorce and we fear that our own marriage will end that way again, especially if we saw our parents' marriage fall apart. In this practical guide for singles and couples, we offer a roadmap for love.

The guide contains seven practical tips to build a thriving and divorce proof marriage based on marriage, research time, tested couples and wisdom from Christianity. And so in addition to the written guide, you're actually gonna receive a free 60 minute talk on the same topic. So if you wanna get the guide and the bonus talk, just go to restored ministry.com/marriage.

Again, restored ministry ministry, singular.com/marriage. Just enter your name and your email, and we'll send you the PDF guide and the talk again. That's restored ministry.com/marriage. Or just click the link in the show notes. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 70.

Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful for you. Feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#072: Eating Disorder: What It Is & How to Heal It | Dr. Julia Sadusky

If you or someone you know has struggled with an eating disorder, you know how painful that experience can be. It’s often an overlooked struggle that really deserves more attention and resources. But thankfully, some resources do exist to heal an eating disorder. 

Today, a psychologist who specializes in treating eating disorders joins us. We discuss:

• The types, symptoms, and root causes of eating disorders

• Surprising statistics on the prevalence of eating disorders and how they can be lethal

• How genetics play a role in developing an eating disorder and why you can’t simply think your way out of it

• What a healthy relationship with food looks like

• Resources and advice you can use today to begin overcoming this struggle

If you struggle with an eating disorder or know someone who does, don’t miss this episode.

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Links & Resources

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• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Dr. Julia Sadusky

  • Dr. Julia Sadusky Website

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• National Eating Disorders Association

• Eating Disorder Foundation

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you or someone, you know, has ever struggled with an eating disorder, you know, how painful and debilitating that experience can be. And sadly, it's an often overlooked, struggling in our culture that really deserves more attention and more resources, but thankfully, some resources do exist to help heal an eating disorder.

Today, I speak with a psychologist who specializes in treating eating disorders. We discuss the symptoms, root causes and types of eating disorders. My guests share some surprising statistics on how so many people struggle with this issue and how an eating disorder can actually be lethal. We talk about how genetics play a role in developing an eating disorder and why you can't simply think your way.

We discussed what a healthy relationship with food looks like, and my guests share some resources and advice that you could use today to begin overcoming this struggle. Finally, sharper some tips to help a friend who's struggling with an eating disorder. And by the way, while I haven't seen any data that suggests that people who come from broken families struggle more with this problem with eating disorders.

We've certainly seen some anecdotal evidence that some of us cope with the trauma of our broken family by turning to food. So if you struggle with an eating disorder, if she knows someone who does. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage.

So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 72. My guest today is Dr. Julia Sadusky. You might recognize her because she's been on the show before in episode 12, 13 and 14, Dr. Sadosky is an author. She's a speaker and a licensed psychologist.

She owns her own practice. It's called Luxe counseling and consulting in Littleton, Colorado, where she offers individual family and couples therapy. In addition to consultations for individuals and families around sexuality and gender. She also serves as a youth and ministry educator offering trainings and consultations to counseling centers and faith based institutions.

Her other areas of focus include work with complex trauma, eating disorders and teens and emerging adults. Dr. Sadusky has coauthored a bunch of books, which she'll tell you about at the end of the show, but her most recent book is titled gender identity in therapy, which was co-authored with Dr. Mark Yarhouse.

Dr. Julia is currently a research fellow of the sexual and gender identity Institute in Wheaton, Illinois. And she's an advisor to the center for faith, sexuality, and gender. She's also a good friend of mine. So I'm so excited for you to listen in on my conversation with Dr. Julia, which was actually recorded in her office.

Dr. Julia. Thanks for coming on the show. It's good to be with you, Joey. I think you are our most common guests or popular guests. So where you come up, you've come on the show, the mouse. So it's great to have you back. It's good to be here. I'm excited to talk about eating disorders. I know it's a heavy topic.

It's a tough topic, but I think, uh, you have so much experience in this area, so much expertise. So excuse me. I think we'll start with an obvious question, which is like, what exactly do we mean when we say an eating disorder? What is an eating disorder? Yeah, so I think a lot of people, when they hear eating disorders, they most often think of one type of eating disorder, which, you know, we can break that down in a little bit though.

They might be thinking of anorexia where a person simply doesn't eat. And yet there are several types of eating disorders. And what makes them distinct from other types of mental health concerns is that they're pretty serious ways in which a person struggles with their relationship with food. That can include things like being obsessed with food, being obsessed with your weight size shape.

And again, there's, there's different types. So there's binge eating disorder. Bulemia anorexia, which is probably the most serious, but also the least common. So it's interesting that people think of anorexia as the only eating disorder when there's several, and it's actually the least common of the. Super interesting.

Do you mind just explaining what each of those are doing? Bulemia anorexia? Hmm. So maybe I'll start with anorexia because again, that's the one that most people understand. So anorexia is really when a person really tries to reduce their food intake, pretty significantly, that leads to extremely low body weight.

And so there's this pursuit of thinness really at all costs. It doesn't matter if I'm fainting at work. It doesn't matter if I can't think clearly it doesn't matter if I have headaches every day, that pursuit of thinness becomes more important than anything else. Um, it also comes with a distorted body image, fear of gaining.

And extremely disturbed behaviors around that. It's so things like checking myself in the mirror over and over again, um, just to make sure I haven't gained weight. And so that's one type, right? And then we have bulemia, which is probably the second, most understandable that maybe listeners have heard about, which is really where a person's combining things like eating large amounts of food, um, in a short period of time.

And that's called bingeing. So eating a lot in a short time, um, and feeling out of control when you do that and then trying to do something after to compensate. So that could be exercising that could be purging, which is like vomiting using laxatives, using diuretics fasting, anything to really try to compensate for the binge is bulemia nervosa.

And so like people with anorexia, they do fear gaining. And they're unhappy with their body size or shape. So that's what they have in common. And then binge eating is really take that first part of bulemia and take out the second part. So it's really where people are recurrently, binge eating. So eating a lot in a short period of time, feeling out of control while doing it, feeling distressed about that.

Thinking a lot about through food throughout the day. But again, the bulemia follows with exercise or fasting or purging, whereas binge eating doesn't include that compensatory part. Okay. Well, thanks for making that clear and I guess a follow up question, which is related to, so you've probably answered some of it, but what are the signs and symptoms of each?

And I'd imagine I was curious about this in preparing for this interview. I'd imagine that it's possible to have an eating disorder without maybe realizing it, is that true? Absolutely. So one of the challenges with eating disorders, and this is true from, I think mental health concerns broadly is I in a particular way here, one of the symptoms actually of anorexia.

Not having good insight into the severity of the problem. So a person can say, you know, I just skip meals because I'm intermittently fasting. I think about things like, uh, fasting during certain seasons of the years, for people of faith, for instance, and people can kind of rationalize that, or it's popular.

I have today certain diets and people say, oh, I'm just doing this diet. Or I'm doing that diet. I'm restricting that type of food. And it's really easily to enable people in that. And it's also really easy to rationalize it in a culture that is really obsessed with size, shape, and weight where we, we don't know, we have an, maybe a challenge in this area, but when we zoom out and talk about our relationship with food, we may see distortions in that.

So usually when I meet with somebody, instead of saying you have an eating disorder, do you think you have an eating disorder? I'll just ask them, what's your relationship with food? Like, um, You know, what emotions do you have around food? And that's much more helpful cause it's both about the food and it's not about the food when we get down to it.

Yeah. And you said it's about their relationship with food and then not the relationship with food. It sounds to me like it's part yeah. Part that, the relationship with it. And then part of it is the relationship with themselves. That's exactly right. Yeah. When I've worked in, especially in a hospital setting for eating disorders, one of the goals that we set for people is how do you disconnect your sense of self, um, and your sense of value from this idea that I have to be a particular size, a particular shape, a particular weight, and then I'll be sufficient.

Then I'll have value, then I'll have worth in the eyes of others and in the eyes of myself. And so you're right. It's very much. About the food and then about my relationship with myself and other people and how that ultimately gets projected on food at some point. So interesting. Anything else you wanted to add about the signs and symptoms?

No, I think, I think that pretty much covers it. Great. And another question I had was, um, how big is this problem? Cause I think some people are aware of it, others. Aren't so curious. How big is it? Yeah. So when we're talking about worldwide, um, eating disorders affect at least 9% of population. So in the us, about 28.8 million Americans have an eating disorder over the course of their lifetime, you know, less than yeah.

A big number, right. A lot of people. And, and I think. Again, we will talk at probably in a little bit about the myths, but there's so much misunderstanding about eating disorders. And so again, we often think everybody with an eating disorder is underweight and only 6% of people with eating disorders are underweight.

Um, wow. So 94% don't fit into that category of people who struggle with exactly. So, so the ways in which we would typically identify a person with an eating disorder, well, let me look at you, let me look at your size, shape, and weight and let that guide whether I think you have one and even for people themselves, they think, oh, no, I'm not maybe a Macy eight.

And in the way that I've seen on a documentary will I don't have an eating disorder. And here's, what's so challenging about eating disorders is that they are among the most deadly mental illnesses. Second, only to opioid overdose. Wow. And that's getting more intention attention, the opioid crisis, but this isn't necessarily, well, not, not quite in the same way.

I mean, it really has been siloed. I think where people who will work in the eating disorder world take really seriously the challenges we're facing with, with suicide. And then also the direct complications of eating disorders on people's health and, and longevity of their lives. And so, but once you get outside of that context, I, I think a lot of people don't understand eating disorders and, um, don't think often about it being one of the most deadly mental illnesses today.

Well, w uh, in what ways is it lethal? Is it because it leads to suicide or there are other complications as well? So, so a primary way is, is certainly suicide. So about 26% of people with eating disorders attempt suicide. You know, that's at least once in every one in every five, but the other ways, and again, this is the things we don't probably fully appreciate until we start talking about it is, I mean, think about what happens when our body is not being regularly nourished.

Literally by food, but also by a water intake, many people with eating disorders will restrict water. They will also use things like laxatives diuretics that dehydrate the body. And over time, if, if a person is vomiting, for instance, four to five times a day, um, taking in let's say 400, 500 calories a day and purging all of that, taking diuretics, taking laxatives, not drinking water, um, that has such a cumulative effect on the body.

The body can't function. So we see things like failure in the kidneys, uh, you know, bone density, losses that become really making it difficult to be mobile for people. And simply if a person's restricting enough of food intake, their heart can simply stop eating. And so that's probably where. More intensive settings, come in for people where they're in a hospital and they're put on a feeding tube, but those kinds of things to literally keep them alive because that's how challenging it is for that person to get the nourishment that they need.

So sad. Yeah. My goodness. You mentioned myths. I'd like to talk about that. What are some of the most common myths that you've seen as, as a psychologist when it comes to this problem? You know, I think one of the biggest ones, and I remember I was at a dinner party and it's always awkward as a psychologist to tell people what you do and where you work.

And I said to somebody, oh, they said, what do you do for work? I'm a psychologist. Oh, well, where do you work? I said, I work at a hospital for people with eating disorders. And they said, oh gosh, these young people today, they just can't, you know, make the right choice, just eat the food. And then that tells me two myths right there.

One is, it's all about food, you know, it's that simple. And the other myth is it's about choice. And if you talk to anybody with any mental illness, whether it's depression, anxiety, bipolar, schizophrenia, eating disorders, we know that it's not merely about choice. And so to say, it's just a choice. You just have to eat the food.

Um, doesn't doesn't work because we're talking about mental illness here. And so it's not all about the food either. A lot of times it's about our relationship with ourself. Sometimes it's our relationship with our bodies, our relationships. You know what it means to be in a certain body size and the messaging we've received culturally or in our families about that.

Um, I've mentioned another one, you know, BMI, uh, there's a real obsession in our country about BMI and that BMI tells us if we're healthy. And so what we know though is that BMI is actually not a good predictor of overall wellness. Yeah. So our body mass index, um, and so when people, you know, go and stand on the scale at the doctor's office, for instance, many times, if your BMI is in a certain range, the doctor won't even ask about eating disorders and you see that in a particular way in different ethnic groups.

So, um, historically eating disorders are a Western problem, but many people of different ethnic groups. You know, African-Americans, Asian-Americans struggled with eating disorders. And what we know is that doctors will also not ask them because they assume it's a kind of a Caucasian issue. Um, and so a lot of people get undiagnosed, have different ethnic groups.

And then the last myth, I think that really irks me and it's, it's similar to the first, but you know, this is just people who want attention and that is perhaps the boost simplifying and reductive. Then you could say, yeah, the people that I meet with with eating disorders would love to not have an eating disorder.

In many cases, they would do anything including, and their life right out of desperation. I don't want to have this anymore. And so to imply that this is purely about attention seeking is so unhelpful and it only reinforces shame about the challenges that people are facing. Yeah. Wow. You made me think of any addiction really, but I've walked with people who've really struggled with pornography with less in general, and they have these unwanted behaviors.

Right. And I've heard a lot of people speak about this as if it's merely a choice. Like you said, where it's like, oh yeah, you just, just don't choose that. And it's like, oh, it'd be nice if it was that simple. But it's, that's just not the way that our brains work when we're in that situation. And it's sad that a lot of people don't understand it.

I've heard a lot of like very popular people like authors and speakers speak like this. And it it's sad to me because I think it, again, it's such an over simplification of a complex problem and the same thing applies in this case to that's right. It really doesn't give people the benefit of the doubt that they are actually actively working towards wellness.

Hmm. You know, that's certainly not always the case, as you know, with anybody, with anything compulsive going on, some people don't really want to change yet, but a lot of people do. Yeah. And they're really trying to do the best they can with what they have. And we don't do each other any favors when we minimize the severity and seriousness of what the other person's going through, because it's really about me.

Right. If I haven't figured out in my mind, it makes me feel better that it doesn't help people with eating disorders. Yeah, no, a hundred percent. It's no, it's a, it's a sad thing to simplify it like that. And you're right. I think there are people out there who don't care, right. That they're not trying to improve.

And I think that's probably what these people who are talking about this who may be shut up kind of dark light on it. If that's possible to shed a dark line on something, you know what I mean? So it's, yeah, it is sad. I, yeah. I think what I've seen is like a lot of this behavior and these compulsion's are truly unwanted.

And I think all of us can relate to that. Even if we haven't struggled in those ways, we can relate by saying that certainly there's different parts of ourselves that we don't like. Right. There's certainly there's things we do or things we say that we wish we didn't say or think or do. Right. And so I think in that way we can relate because I haven't met like a perfect person yet.

I don't know about you, but, so I think we all can relate at least on that level. There's like these dark sides to us that are certainly a part of our character that we can't just ignore, that we have to face. Admit that that's me. That's me like the good and the bad both. That's right. That's right. Yeah. I think thinking about it as different parts of us can be helpful to a degree.

And, you know, also recognizing, I know, I think last time I was on here, we talked about the function of behavior and being able to honor that everything we do has a function. There's a reason we do it. Um, we're not insane. You know, we have reasons for the things we do, even if they don't make much sense to us on day one.

Yeah. And it's much more helpful to like understand those reasons and even try to go to the root and heal the trauma or whatever is at the root than it is to purely give people tactics to manage it necessarily. Those, those that can be helpful in some scenarios. But I think it just doesn't go far enough.

Um, or to challenge people to become like masters in a way. Uh, I think there's much more that can be done by just truly understanding, uh, the root and then hopefully healing that as well. I want you to, if you would take us into the mind of someone who is struggling with this disorder, what are they thinking?

What are they feeling? I'm sure this varies from person to person, but kind of the typical person, maybe struggling with this what's going on inside them. Yeah. So there is a lot of emotion around nourishment. Um, maybe I'll start there. That's probably the easiest foundation to lay. So imagine you sit down, you know, for dinner, um, with a friend and first thing, when you sit down, you start to feel that anxiety rise in some cases, pure panic.

And what is the panic about? Well, the, the food may be represents, you know, a sign that I'm about to blow up, expand, take up too much space, too much in this relationship. And so I look at that food and I I'm having anxiety and panic and I don't want it, but I have to eat it because I'm with somebody and what's going to happen if I eat.

Hmm, and what's going to happen if I don't and what's, what is the other person going to notice? What are they gonna think of me? And all of that is happening internally. As you sit across the table from your friend talking about your day and the level of intensity of the, the anxiety. I think for many people is what really sticks out.

And, and that's why people avoid food, right? Like we avoid a lot of things that cause anxiety and stress as if I can avoid it long enough, maybe the anxiety will subside. But ultimately of course, when we avoid things, the anxiety increases over time and it reinforces that I have something to be afraid of that food is the threat.

Um, and then after eating, let's say you, you eat your meal or you eat half of your sandwich and then it's the shame and the. Oh, my gosh, I did something bad. I did something wrong. Might my eating disorder tells me never to nourish not to do that. That's bad. So now I've done that bad thing. I've eaten the food and now I feel disgusting and I feel like I'm bad.

And I feel like I'm not worthy of the food and I'm an imposter because I gave it to myself anyway. And that's where you get into to get rid of the disgust, right? People go to other behaviors to kind of purge the body, get rid of those feelings is the hope. And so that's where compensatory activities come in is to kind of release the negative emotion that comes up after nourishing.

Wow. Okay. That's so much going on inside the mind and said the heart of someone struggling with that switch people from the outside, looking. I don't know. And might even judge without knowing that, wow, I was, uh, I'm reading Dr. Meg Meeker's book, strong fathers, strong daughters. And, uh, in that she talks a little bit about eating disorders and she looked at it through the lens of like a middle school girl who, you know, wants to be admired by her peers once boys to be attracted to her once, uh, you know, look at on the sports field, like all this stuff.

And so in that example, I remember her saying. There were rewards that the girls were experiencing and she she's a pediatrician as if you don't know everyone listening. Um, so she works with like these young girls all the time, and she said, these girls experienced yeah. A reward of like, oh, I'm losing weight.

I'm looking thinner. And boys are attracted to me. People are, I'm getting attention and that light. And so I guess that that's kind of a common struggle too, that you're almost reinforcing that behavior. Absolutely. And that's the societal piece that I think we can dive into a little bit more, but just this the way in which we reinforce as a culture, uh, these ideas that young people, especially they get the message that they're.

If they look a certain way and it's reinforcing and it gets right at the core of the eating disorder, um, and perpetuates that in really powerful ways. And the other way we see that if you, if you want to get into the mind of somebody is comparison, the constant, this is where body checking comes in and looking in the mirror, you know, over and over again, and comparing to friends and comparing to people you see on social media, all of that comes in here and has a really powerful influence on, on a person on a daily basis.

And as you can imagine, takes them right out of the present moment, you know, how do you stay present to yourself and other people when you're being consumed with that level of stress, it's a lot to juggle. It's a lot to handle a related question at the root of all this. What are some of the common factors that contribute to the struggle?

Um, yes. So one of the things that people don't fully appreciate with eating disorders is. Many people have genetic predispositions to them. Um, and so that's both in the, in the context of maybe how people process certain neurotransmitters in the brain, but it also has to do with family history of eating disorders, anxiety related disorders, and the way in which our genes impact our personality traits.

So things like perfectionism, for instance, in the case of anorexia for being risk averse. So people who are hesitant to take risks, uh, we see that as a common personality trait that goes along with anorexia in the case of bulemia things and binge eating sensation, seeking. So people who are looking for a rush much in the same way as you see with substance use, how that can be something that predisposes a person to an eating disorder and things like neuroticism.

So high anxiety, about a lot of different facets of life. All of those personality traits can come in and again, predispose a person to an eating disorder. And then we get into experiencial, um, aspects of eating disorders. And certainly a lot of the people that I've worked with have experiences of trauma, um, and neglect.

And I think a lot of times we think only of trauma and we don't often think of neglect. Uh, we think, oh, trauma. Yeah, that's bad, but neglect. Uh, we all have, we all get neglected a little bit and I gotta be honest. I mean, there is just no difference in severity of the impact of traumatic experiences and experiences of neglect on people.

And so those are certainly factors that can come in with eating disorders and peer rejection is another big one. I remember one client who shared with me, you know, I got told over and over again that I was fat. And so I stopped eating and then I stopped getting told I was. And that's where it started societal norms.

Fatphobia this idea that people in larger sized bodies are somehow less responsible, less disciplined, disgusting people to be avoided unattractive. All of that messaging has a really powerful impact on a person growing up in our world. And if we look at people and I use that language intentionally in larger sized bodies, as opposed to saying you're fat, because number one, the standards we have for what it means to be fat today are very unrealistic.

And also it's such a derogatory term to talk about people who, for any number of reasons are in larger sized bodies than other people. Um, and then social media portrayals of course, show us a lot of unrealistic standards specifically for women, but not exclusively for women. And that really. If you look at Western countries and countries that become more westernized, we see increases in rates of eating disorders.

That's really fascinating when you think about it, that even, I remember traveling to Ukraine in 2016 and gave a talk on eating disorders. And they said we didn't see eating disorders in our treatment facilities until we became more rest westernized and had more social media access. So the power of that on young people in a particular way is really, I think, hard to fully appreciate.

Yeah. That's not trivial. My goodness, man. There's so much there and I'm sure we can continue this conversation forever. I remember hearing, yeah, just like, you know, friends growing up saying like, oh, I'm so fat or something. And I remember, but with a snarky boy in me has a teenager at least to be like, well, if you're a fat than other people, like, you know, not like they're really struggling.

Cause yeah. I think there's this like an expectation. Yeah. We have of being like on a magazine cover and it's just so ridiculous. It's like, you don't need to have like a 2% body fat to be healthy. And so it is sad how we put so much pressure on people. And I think women in particular, I'm sure men struggle with this too, but women in particular, I think are just the recipients of this assault on femininity and a lot of ways, but just on the body in general.

That's right. And I think maybe that's another myth I didn't touch on is a lot of you asked, do people often not know they have an eating disorder and I've worked with several men. I can think of who came to see me and said, you know, I'm just tired a lot because I'm not getting enough food and. They had an eating disorder and, um, you know, all these fad diets and intermittent fasting and the Daniel's fast, I think it's called and all of these different options for people.

Yeah. Make credible, restricting our food intake and tell us that if I don't eat for a long period of time, I'm more disciplined and more virtuous in some cases. And that on men and women both, um, really just has a really detrimental effect on them. And I think a lot of times we think, oh, this is a female problem with eating disorders, but certainly, um, we see that with medicine.

Thanks for saying that. Yeah. Is it, is it more prominent in one of the other, I was across the board. Is it like a 50 50 split? I'm just curious because, thanks for saying, yeah, it's a great question. We honestly probably have under representative prevalence estimates. So because men don't often come to treatment.

Um, so even working in an eating disorder facility, I think I worked, I can count on two hands, the men that I worked with. And I think a lot of that is because it's normalized to go and work out seven days a week as a man. Even if you work out for two hours every day, everybody's cheering you on for that.

And it's a little bit different for women. Uh, in that regard, you can identify compulsive exercise a little bit more easily in women than in men. And, um, certainly all of the research we have on eating disorders is more focused on the experience of women. So it's pretty challenging for men to see themselves in the experience and to come forward and say, Hey.

I not only do I need mental health treatment, which is already difficult for men, but I have an eating disorder, which feels like a, a female problem. And that can be a challenge for them in getting help. They need. Yeah, it's kind of similar to lust. I think a lot of women think less as a man problem, a male problem, but that is just so false and it's starting to be proven to be false, like on a large scale, which I think is good so that people can get the help that they need.

So now thanks for clarifying that that's, that's really helpful. Um, I, I was curious, you mentioned genetics and being able to. Identified these predispositions. Right. And we've heard of predispositions to alcohol. I think a lot of people know about that, but I didn't know. You could tell things like perfectionism and I kind of fall into that category.

I'd be curious. Like, is there a way, are there tests out there? To tell like, oh, I have a predisposition to this or that. Yeah. So what I came across this more when I worked in, um, inpatient eating disorder work, but they, uh, they do I'm blanking right now on the name of the measure, but it's, it's a pretty substantial tests that looks at, um, traits that have been mapped on for people with eating disorders.

And you can see the constellation of personality traits that you have and how they might factor in to the types of behaviors. Cognitive rigidity is another one. Um, and how that can map on in pretty understandable ways. When you think about it, if I'm rigid about different aspects of life and my experience, and I may also be rigid about food and calories and, oh my gosh, no, I can only have 1400 calories and that's it.

And if I have more than that, Bad things are gonna happen and you can kind of see that rigidity play out, but it's, yeah, it's pretty fascinating when you start to realize that, you know, certainly without certain experiences that kind of put you on a trajectory, it's not to say everybody who's perfectionistic has these types of things, but to know that it does complicate our process of certain behaviors and how we manage them over time.

Okay. That makes sense. And when we, when we say tests, is this a written test? It's is it a blood draw for everyone? So it's, um, a written test. So it's kind of, you know, you pick maybe statements, how true are these statements for me or, um, those kinds of things. So more of like an academic test than a blood draw or something like that.

Cool. Okay. Good to know. Yeah. I was curious though, for people, anyone listening right now who is maybe struggling with this, or maybe they're realizing that they struggle with us listening to us right now. What resources exist to help someone like that? Who's really stuck in this fight. Yeah. So there are a couple of facets to treating an eating disorder.

Um, I think a lot of times we can obviously think of therapy first and therapy is. Wonderful and helpful and important for people with eating disorders. I will say with therapy, I would recommend you work with somebody who knows about eating disorders. Um, a lot of therapists, sadly, don't get very excellent training on eating disorders.

And so they may be just as uneducated as the average lay person. And so you really, when you're stepping into that work, especially if you're really, really struggling with an eating disorder, you don't really have time to educate your therapist. Um, and so really being able to, you know, look for providers and I can talk about organizations that help you narrow that process down in a second.

But looking for providers who know their stuff about eating disorders is really critical. Um, there's really two other pieces though, that are important with eating disorder work. And one is dietary support. And in the same way, as with a therapist, you want somebody who knows eating disorders, you would want a dietician who knows eating disorders.

So there are nutritionists out there and dieticians who can actually. Cause eating disorders in people. Wow. Um, by teaching people to restrict their food intake, for instance, to get to a certain size, shape, and weight. And so being careful about who you go and see, but I do think the dietary aspect, especially early on is really critical because you want to know, like, what does my body need to function?

And a helpful dietician can map that out, help with meal planning, help with, you know, challenging thoughts that come up around meal time and just help think through and problem solve those things, help modulate exercise and make sure movement is in a healthy way. All of those things are really critical and then psychiatry as another one I mentioned, right?

How there's these genetic predispositions and a lot of times there's anxiety, depression, other things going on. So having a psychiatrist who can help with medication management can also be really helpful. Of course, there's other neat things out there, like art therapy, movement therapy that can help people get connected to their body or externalize emotions in helpful ways.

But ultimately there's a couple of support networks that might be good for people to know. So one is the eating disorder foundation, um, called EDF for short, and they have free groups, both virtually, and sometimes in person that people can go to and meet other people who have eating disorders and get support of all kinds and it's free, which is wonderful.

Um, and then Nita and EDA, the national eating disorder association has a ton of resourcing online. Um, and they can also direct you, both of those organizations. And Nita can help you find a therapist who knows eating disorders as well. And then finally, I'll say that I mentioned hospitalization before, and you know, when a person is really trying their best to nourish and to do the things they need to do on a daily basis, and they just can't make those shifts on their own, which is true for some people and nothing to be ashamed of.

There are hospitals in place that can help you with that and can give more structure and accountability and support around meal times, especially that can help people with reducing behaviors. Yeah. And the man there's so much shame around doing something like that, which is so sad. It's like, you know, we'd never shamed someone who struggling with cancer, go to the hospital and get treatment for their cancer.

But for some reason, in our culture, at least. It's almost unthinkable to go put yourself in a hospital. And my goodness, like you really messed up. Like, that's a sad that we think of it that way that someone has this desire to overcome this struggle or to, to feel whole again, and to be in a healthy place in their life that they're just so afraid and so taboo to pursue that.

Exactly. Yeah. It's a big sacrifice people make when they take those steps in a society that still has so much stigma around mental illness. And what does it mean about you as a person that you're taking that time away to in some cases sustain your life. And I often say to parents, especially who feel mixed feelings about a young person or a young adult going and taking time off work for months at a time to go to a hospital.

And I say like, do you want your child alive? I mean, 'cause the longer you wait, the worse, this gets. And we've seen that in so many ways with mental health concerns, untreated mental health concerns get worse. They don't get better. Yeah, man, and I have so much admiration for people who take those steps, who actually go to a hospital who go to, you know, whatever program is right for them.

And they take time off work to the point where, you know, maybe a lot of people end up finding out about what they're doing, which is so hard. Um, but, but there's so much admiration there because it takes such courage to just listen to that voice inside of you that says, okay, you know, you deserve to be healthy.

You deserve to be whole, and it's okay for you to take steps that maybe other people will judge you for, but it's going to be so much better for you and for the people that you love in the long run. Like what, what a heroic action in my opinion. Yeah. A lot of people focus on what will I lose? What will I miss out on if I take this step and recovery and wellness, and I often ask my clients, what do you, what do you gain and what do you lose by not right.

And we can kind of look back and see the ways eating disorders, Rob us of life and freedom and joy and peace and confidence in our true selves, as opposed to what we look like or what we think we look like on a daily basis, giving people the opportunity to really look back and say, wow, this has taken a lot for me.

And I have the opportunity to take my life back. So again, and I think that's amazing too, for people who maybe have a hard time taking care of themselves or investing in themselves, if you overcome this or at least in a manageable place with this, and, you know, you feel so much better, you feel healthier, feel more.

Not only is it just for you, but the people around you too, you're going to inspire maybe other people who are struggling with this, or even people are struggling with something completely different. You can empathize with them and help them maybe through something that's so difficult. And it's so relatable to talk with someone who's been through pain, who's struggled, who's, you know, taking these big steps to try to be healthier and whole.

And so I think, um, maybe you stop thinking about yourself so much in a way. I know that might sound odd because it is about you and that's okay for it to be about you, but maybe think of the other people in your life who will benefit from what you benefit from that's right. Yeah. It becomes a real gift and resource.

And I don't know that all of my clients, when they come to see me on day one, think of themselves that way is kind of a model, um, a source of wisdom, but I gotta be honest, you know, the people I work with this is true in general, but I certainly see it with eating disorders are some of the people that I admire most.

The courage. It takes to be honest with yourself about where you are and to seek support and be vulnerable and to be authentic, we, we don't have much of that in our society today. And we benefit from more people coming forward and talking about what they're really going through and to your point, being able to be a resource to others as well.

Yeah. What would the world look like if we all did? Ah, Hmm. That'd be a beautiful place. What would be different than it is right now? Yeah. I can hear some people listening right now thinking, okay. What's the line between, you know, wanting to work out a lot, maybe loving food or hating food, just not having a natural, like draw towards food.

Is there a clear line between an eating disorder and someone who just. Maybe they're just really into, um, intermittent fasting. How do you decipher those two? It sounds like it might be difficult. Yeah, it is difficult. I definitely wouldn't recommend people listen to this in self-diagnosis. I mean, I, I think this is part of the role of mental health providers and the key with eating disorders is, you know, we're not going to be as the best gauge of our own illness.

And so you do need people who you can share openly. Here's what happens for me when I see a plate of food or maybe that doesn't happen. But gosh, if I don't exercise on a day that I plan to. I shamed myself and then I skip a meal or I cut corners in my snack because I don't deserve it. And, and it's, it's not a clear line because we do have a society that's has a really unhealthy relationship with our bodies.

And so there's a lot of normalization of eating disorder, talk and conversation in our culture and not everybody meets criteria for an eating disorder. Um, so I'm of the mind that I would love for there not to be anybody who meets criteria over time. And, and yet, if you have a complicated relationship with food or you do feel a lot of shame when you don't exercise, you're skipping meals, you're feeling like you have to earn your next meal.

That to me is something that's worth talking about with somebody and. Doesn't meet full criteria. Well, at least you can work on it before it does. And if it does meet full criteria, then all the more reason to get in and to really get some support. Um, but again, I think as a society, we don't have a very healthy relationship with our bodies and food.

And so that does make the line a little bit blurry between those different pieces. Yeah. And just the inherent complexity of it too. It's like, there's so many layers to this. And so that, that makes sense, but that's really helpful. Thanks for clarifying that. So for someone who wants help, who needs help or know someone who could use help like this, you mentioned the groups, uh, what someone can, what what's something that someone can do maybe today, aside from go into one of those groups or booking a therapy session, what's something that they can do, like right now, as you're listening to this, or once they put down their earphones, you know, honestly, I think the biggest next step for somebody is telling somebody you trust that you resonated with what you heard.

So, Hey, I was listening, listening to this podcast and they were talking about eating disorders and there was a lot I could relate to. I don't know if I have one or maybe I do know that I have one and I just wanted to start with telling somebody, you know, can you hold me accountable and taking the next step, even if I'm not sure what that is yet, but maybe that is going back to my therapist who I'm seeing and bringing it up, or maybe it's reaching out to a therapist or getting on ETF's website and looking for a group.

But yeah, I think that next step is tell somebody who is safe for you about what you resonate with and opening that door to vulnerability can be really relieving and really freeing. Um, and it's a really concrete step that you can take today. I love it. I've been in that situation where I've had to reveal things to people that, you know, things in my past, for example, or I've been in the receiving end of it.

And I think beforehand you're like, this is going to go horribly and I can't promise you that I will go great. I don't know. Kind of depends on who you tell, but I'm careful choose wisely. And I always say with that, like it's wise to pick someone who, you know, who's suffered a bit. Um, I find that those types of people are more empathetic, typically.

Not always, but you know, they're, they're able to kind of receive that. They have the capacity for it. Cause some people who, and this is not to put people like this down at all, but people who maybe really haven't struggled much in life or haven't suffered much in life, which I'm really happy for them in one way.

But, but on the other hand, it's like, they might not be the best person to confide in about something like this, but anything you would add to that? No, I think that's right. I mean, You know, that's why I say, you know, if you're going to share it with somebody lofted off easy, not, you know, Hey, I'm I have an eating disorder, but Hey, I heard this podcast, would you listen to it?

And it resonated with me. And, and then if it's somebody that, you know, has shown up for you in areas of vulnerability, to be as honest as you can with them, and you may be surprised. I mean, a lot of people struggle in this area more than we would realize. And so being courageous in that, and you mentioned it's, it's scary to do it.

And it's also scary, not too many people listening, know what it's like to carry a secret alone for a long time. And it's a pretty dark and scary place there too. So it's good to remember that. Yes, it's, it's scary to take that step in vulnerability. And on the other side of that can be a lot of. Amen. Yeah.

A lot of freedom. Uh that's great advice. Thank you for everything that you've shared. I want to shift gears before we end to people listening right now, who maybe they have a friend who's come to them and told them exactly what you just said, or, or they can recognize that they're struggling in one way or another and they want to help.

They want to help. What should someone not say? I want to start there, which is someone not say or not do to help someone who's struggling with an eating disorder. Yes. So the biggest thing is do not make body comments positive or negative. And this is unpopular because a lot of people say, well, gosh, aren't you just kind of being dramatic.

And we ought to think about what that signals to somebody. Like it tells somebody pretty clearly that your value and worth hinges on what you look like. And are we prepared to say that about. And you can compliment somebody smile or compliment how radiant their eyes look or cute. Gosh, like you always dress so well, that's different than saying, wow, have you lost weight or, well, have you gained weight or while your cheeks look really big, it's like not, okay.

So body comments avoid potty comments, positive or negative because a lot of times what you do when you give a positive comment, a person with an eating disorder says, oh, I shouldn't eat less. That felt good. I imagine how it would feel. If I lost five more pounds, maybe more people would notice. And if you make a negative body comment, it reinforces there's something wrong with me and I've got to change it.

And I've got to manipulate caloric intake to do that. Don't police people with eating disorders and their eating habits. Okay. So if a person struggling with binge eating disorder, don't tell them, oh, you need to eat healthy. Hmm, don't criticize good food, bad food, healthy food, unhealthy food. A lot of times I hear this now and I'm sensitive to it, certainly, but people, oh, well, you know, I eat a big breakfast, so I'm going to have to skip lunch or yeah.

Thanksgivings tonight. So let's not eat anything before we got to earn it. I mean, those kinds of comments, reinforced, disordered, eating, finding things to talk about other than diets and latest fads in that you mentioned, you know, what, if somebody is fine with intermittent fasting, well, that's fine. Don't talk about it because then it becomes this kind of social commodity and it makes it out to be something different and that can have an impact on people.

I think a lot of people are pretty obsessed with this kind of health cut, conscious fitness conscious world. And I think we would do well to spend much more of our time talking about things that matter. And so don't talk about those kinds of things like food, find other. And, and let's see how our relationships improve.

Beautiful. Yeah. My, I know my friendships, my relationships always get better when I go below the surface. And I think a lot of those things you mentioned often are surface level conversations, which is sad. And, um, maybe it's more of American culture culture in the west, but I certainly know that it tends to say that our relationships tend to say that we're just so sad for so many reasons, but this being another one of them, what should someone say or do to help someone who's struggling with an eating disorder?

Yeah. So, so comment on a person's character, their qualities that you appreciate. Listen to them. Talk about the stressors of daily life, including food, like a person, being able to tell you that like Cassia I'm, I'm feeling really stressed because we're going out to dinner with colleagues at work this evening.

And I feel a lot of shame when I eat in front of. And being able to receive that. Thank you for telling me that. Wow. It means a lot that you would trust me with that. I admire your courage and being able to say that out loud, I'm encouraging people to feel their emotion. Meaning if a person's crying, if a friend is opening up and they're crying and they start to apologize, I'm sorry.

I can't believe I'm doing this. Ugh, I'm too emotional to be able to stop them and say, Hey, I'm grateful that you trust me with your tears because a lot of people with eating disorders and people, without them, we struggled to be able to get our feelings out. And so to be able to receive them is really helpful for people with eating disorders and people without them, and find ways to connect outside of exercise and food, sitting on the ground at a park and a picnic.

Instead of, if a person has an eating disorder, always walking with them or always making it about food while also letting a person know if it would ever help to have somebody to eat a meal with, or to call me while you're eating, just to have company I'm here for that honor their ability to have boundaries.

So if a person says, Hey, please, don't talk about that diet in front of me, respecting that, you know, and, and finally I'll say focus on food as nourishment and energy, rather than something that we can earn. So talking about food, that cash. Yeah. My brain is really foggy and tired. I need to eat some food as opposed to, Ugh, I, should I eat this cookie or not because I didn't run yet today.

I mean, that, that doesn't help. And so really changing our own relationship with food and nourishment and talking about it that way, as opposed to it being something that's tied to our. I want to stay there for a second. If you want to elaborate a little bit on that, like, what does it look like to have a healthy relationship with food?

You already mentioned a few things throughout this whole interview, but especially right there, but just give you an opportunity to add anything to that. Yeah. So there's an interesting philosophy right now called intuitive eating. And the idea is that our bodies are made to tell us the truth. So when I wake up in the morning, if I don't eat, my body will send me a cue.

My stomach will grow. Yeah, I'll get a headache. Those are hunger cues. And I think a healthy relationship with food involves listening to our hunger cues. And if we don't listen to our hunger cues, believe it or not, we actually stop having them. And so this is why people will say, oh my gosh, ever since I started fasting for 12 hours, I don't get hungry.

For 12 hours while your body has listened and it's gotten the message that you're not giving it what it needs. So it stops working and the way that plays out as it also then impacts fullness cues, which come next. And so that's where binge eating comes in and it's a person being able to listen to their fullness cues and to stop eating because wow, I feel Sasha.

I feel satisfied and then intuitive eating also involves like maybe, you know, on a random Tuesday night, when a person comes home from a dinner, they're craving something sweet and they can enjoy a cookie and not have guilt about that. Pap a bowl of ice cream and enjoy that. And that's the intuitive piece.

And then maybe other days I want a salad because gosh, that sounds really good to me on the menu, but it not being about good food, bad food, safe food, dangerous food, and really about what is my body one, what does it need today? Um, and being able to spontaneously respond to that and give the body what it needs on a regular basis.

Awesome. Great advice. Thank you. And fullness cues, just to tie this up, what would those look like? I think we all know what hunger cues are. Like, we've all felt those, but I don't know if people are as aware of like what fullness cues look like. Yeah, probably not. I mean, You know, what I often tell with clients about, and, um, is mindfulness in the context of eating.

So pacing myself in such a way that I can check in with myself while I'm eating and say like, how am I feeling about this meal? Like, do I want more, do I want less? And you know, as I finish up a plate of food, checking in with myself, taking a few minutes and just seeing what that feels like, and if I want more getting up and getting more, if I think I'm going to be wanting a snack in 30 minutes, that's probably a good sign.

I should eat more now. Um, and then, you know, if I'm starting to feel bloated or kind of weighed down or kind of like, I'm just eating to put food in my mouth as opposed to mindfully, like I'm hungry, this tastes good to me. Um, that's another good gauge of like, where am I at? Am I mindfully eating? Or am I just putting food in my body?

For more of an emotional reason. Yeah. No, that can be an easy thing to do, especially if you're at a party, everyone else is eating. It's like, oh, I'm just going to do that. And now that makes so much sense. It's like sign a fullness key. I've heard that before that, like when your diaphragm, when your stomach like hit your dye from the new kind of PSI, I dunno if you've heard that and maybe I'm off go, you know what?

I, I could see that I'll say that I could see that. I do think fullness cues are a little bit harder to operationalize, but I've certainly, I can tell you as I'm working with a client and we're having a, maybe a meal in the hospital setting together, and there is a moment where it's like, I feel good. I feel satiated.

And, and that's the question I ask people is like, where, where are you at? How full do you feel? Do you feel satiated right now? And they can check in with themselves and kind of figure that out. Sounds good. I hope everyone doesn't be like, did I just say, yeah, that's right. Yeah. That's the neurotic piece of all of us.

Am I doing it right? Uh, yeah. And, and it takes practice and our bodies, but our bodies want to be satisfied. You know, they need nourishment to function. And so trusting your body's ability, if you don't have hunger and fuel fullness cues right now to get those back over time. That's great. And I think one of the most helpful things that anyone who's struggling with this can do is to find someone to help them.

Someone who's specially trained in this, like you said before, And so I wanted to give that opportunity to tell us about your work, what you do. I know you have an expertise in treating eating disorders. Um, you've done this for years. You obviously, your practice is much bigger than that, but I would love for you to tell us about what you offer your, any books, how you do speaking.

Tell us about all of that. Yeah. So it's funny, a lot of my work and writing and speaking doesn't have a lot to do with eating disorders. So my specialty. Well, in addition to eating disorders is sexuality and gender. So if people were to look me up, a lot of my work is in those areas. So that can be sexual identity, same-sex sexuality.

Um, so LGBT experiences and gender identity, transgender experiences. So, um, that's a lot of the writing and speaking that I do, but yes, you're right. I have a specialty in eating disorders and I work with a lot of survivors of trauma who also have eating disorders. And so I have a counseling practice, uh, here in Littleton, Colorado, and it's called Lux counseling and consulting.

And I offer individual and family therapy, um, for people with a lot of different things, but including eating disorders. Um, and then I work with dieticians and psychiatrists in the area. So if people are looking for support with dietician or psychiatrist, certainly I can give referrals for those. This is a time where everybody seems to be benefiting from mental health support and a lot of people are reaching out.

And so, um, I'm not the only one out there. So if somebody was to reach out to me and I say, I have a wait list or that kind of thing, I'd be happy to connect people to other resources. But yeah, that's a little bit about what I do. Cool. Well, thank you. And is there one best way to reach out to you? Like how can people follow you and get in touch with you if they'd like to?

Yeah. So I have a website which is kind of easy, except I have a very difficult, last name to spell. So, um, it's my first and last name www.juliasadusky.com. And that's probably the best way to, to follow some of the work. I do, the writing and the speaking engagements I have, um, I have a Facebook page for, uh, Julia Sadusky Sidey that people can follow on there.

Um, so they're probably the easiest ways. Yeah. And we'll put on the, of that in the show notes. So you guys, so. Track that down. I did want to clarify one thing, you mentioned the, uh, you know, treating gender struggles. Um, you do it from a very unique perspective. I know some people listening might not understand that.

I know you personally, so I know that, but, um, yeah. What's your perspective on that? I know you work a lot with people of faith who are struggling in that area. Would you clarify that? Yeah, so, um, yeah, my specialty is really at the intersection of exploring sexual identity, exploring gender identity and, um, experiences of people, of faith.

So for a person of faith, how do I reconcile deeply held beliefs and values with experiences, challenges I have related to my experience with gender identity or sexual identity. And so I don't exclusively work with people of faith, but, um, it's kind of a niche area to work with people at that intersection.

So a lot of my writing is, is in that vein. Yeah, no, I think there's a lot of people listening right now. And a lot of people out there who would benefit from this because. You're counter-cultural, you're, you're not, you're helping people on a unique ways, which I think is like so helpful and you're not doing it in a way that a lot of people in the world are doing it.

So I just wanted to give you that plug for that. So thank you for the work that you're doing and, uh, for helping, you know, all those people who need the help. Absolutely. Yeah. If you're interested in reading more, there's, um, a couple of recent resources out there, one emerging gender identities, which probably would be the most accessible to a person listening about just what do we make of where we are at in society and how we approach and think about gender identity and what are the ways.

Specifically people of faith can better respond than we have in the past two people navigating that space. Awesome. And you wrote that. Awesome. And that can get that on Amazon and that's right on Amazon. Yep. And it coauthored it with mark Yarhouse and it's called emerging gender identities, understanding the diverse experiences of today's youth.

Amazing. Well, thank you for all these resources. Thanks for all you do. You're a hard worker. Uh, man, your life has been so busy. I'm so surprised that you're able to do everything that you do. It seems like you're like, oh, I'm writing this book and that fuck. And you have a full client load and it's just amazing.

So I admire you, uh, Dr. Julia, um, what encouragement, just in closing, I don't want to give you the last word. What encouragement would you give to anyone who's struggling with an eating disorder? I really would want somebody listening with an eating disorder to know that you do not have to be bound by the reality that you live right.

A lot of people feel in the midst of an eating disorder. Like there's no way out they're trapped and something that offered you a life of acceptance and value and worth becomes something that you are indebted to and enslave to. And just for somebody listening to know that you don't have to be a slave to it forever, and there is treatment out there and it can help even in the spaces, in places of our lives that feel really hopeless.

Um, and so don't give into despair and trust your ability more importantly than anybody. Else's your ability to work through the things that you, that you're navigating and you don't have to do that alone. So if you struggle with an eating disorder, what's one thing that you can do this week to begin healing, some idea that you maybe heard in this episode, what can you do this week to take action on that?

And if you know someone who struggles with an eating disorder, what's one thing that you can do this week that maybe you heard in this episode to offer support and help them heal. And if you want to find a counselor, we went to help her building a network of counselors that we trust and recommend. And the benefits to using our network are we're going to save you a lot of time and effort in searching for a counselor.

We'll connect you with a trained professional who can give you the help and the tools you need to heal. So you can feel whole again. So if you want a counselor, just go to restored ministry.com/coaching. Again, restored ministry.com/coaching. Just fill out the form it's really quick. And then once we find a counselor for you, we'll connect you with them again.

That's restored ministry.com/. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 72. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them, always remember you're not alone.

We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#071: My Parents’ Divorce Made Me a Child-Sized Old Soul | Professor Daniel Drain

Growing up too fast is a common experience for children of divorce. You’re often called upon to take on responsibilities that should never be yours. As a result, you may become a serious, mature person — even if you’re still a kid.

That’s what happened to our guest today, which he explains in this episode. In addition, we discuss:

• A surprising thing that helped him heal and begin to break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in his own life

• How his parents are also children of divorce, which naturally played a role in how they repeat that cycle in their own marriage

• What marriage is meant to be and why a false idea of freedom greatly hinders your ability to build lasting love

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• Daniel Drain

  • Twitter

  • Facebook

  • Email: daniel.drain@stbernards.edu

• Accredited Online Ministry Degrees | Catholic Master Programs – St. Bernard’s (stbernards.edu)

• Episode 21: How to Build Love That Lasts: The 5 Love Languages

• Torn Asunder: Children, the Myth of the Good Divorce, and the Recovery of Origins

• Love Alone Is Credible

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Inquire about an event: events@restoredministry.com

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

Transcript

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

After my parents separated and later divorce, I feared repeating the same cycle in my own relationship and marriage one day. And so I became obsessed with the questions. How do I avoid that? How do I not repeat my parents' mistakes? Because I wanted authentic love, but had no clue how to build it. I think that's true for some many of us, we all want.

But if we're honest, we're not quite sure how to go about building a healthy relationship and great marriage. I think that's even more true for those of us who come from broken families. Nobody's showed us how to build love and a marriage. And that leaves us feeling discouraged and even hopeless to the point where we give up on love.

We give up a marriage, we give up on commitment and we even settle for the. In this episode, I'm going to share a talk that offers a simple roadmap to build authentic love. And so you're going to hear a snippet of that talk, which touches on a few things. First four signs that your relationship or marriage is headed off a cliff.

According to researchers, the biggest area of conflict in marriage and what to do about it. Practical tips that you can use to make conflict healthy. The one thing that makes conflict less than. And more manageable and finally, a resource that you can use to handle conflict better to make conflict healthier in your relationship.

And so if you want a healthy relationship in great marriage one day, whether or not you come from a broken family, keep listening.

welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents. Separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Poncherelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 70 and that's part two of a small series. And what you're about to hear is a talk I gave to the college students of Ave Maria university in Florida.

The talk is titled seven tips to build a thriving and divorce proof marriage, actionable advice from research, the church and time tested. And so the content of the talk is not just my opinion or my limited experience within marriage, but it's really based on psychological research advice from really beautiful married couples who have built amazing marriages and finally wisdom from Christianity on marriage.

By the way, if that's not what you believe, you're not a Christian, you're still going to get a lot out of this. Talk, my challenge to you is just go into it with an open mind. There's a lot of human wisdom overall in this. I've given the sock primarily to college students and young adults. I think it's perfect for that audience, but older audiences have found it helpful as well.

But some of the feedback we've gotten from the young people, one woman who happened to be a newlywed, she was just married in the last six, seven months when she heard the talk, she listened to it three times in a row because she found it so helpful that the host of one of the events where I gave the talk said this, she said, a girl I just talked to on the phone, said that she was watching over zoom and thought it was so good.

Another young woman said it was probably the best talk that she's. Heard so lots of good feedback. I don't say that to boast, but just to assure you, this is worth your time. And so here's a snippet of that talk.

So tip number four, set healthy expectations for your marriage. Tip number five, learn to handle. This is so important. Um, one book said that conflict is the price you pay for intimacy. Conflict is the price you pay for intimacy that comes from the book, saving your marriage before it starts by doctors, Les and Leslie Parrott.

They're two psychologists. They're a married couple of men and a woman with the same name. It's hilarious. And so it's so true. It's so true. As you got close to someone in your life, conflict is inevitable. And in fact, if you're avoiding conflict in your serious relationship, it's usually not a good sign.

It either means you're a Saint or there's something off. And so the goal is not to avoid conflict, but rather to make conflict healthy, to make conflict healthy. So how do you do that? Dr. John Gottman, you might've heard of him. He and his team of researchers have researched. Marriage and conflict that for the past.

And what they would do is they invite married couples to their lab, which was this fancy apartment in Seattle, and then invite them out there on the west coast. And they would observe them over a weekend, let's say, and especially observed how they handle conflict. And now, supposedly this is kind of insane.

Supposedly they can predict with about 95% accuracy. Whether the couple is going to stay married or eventually get divorced. 95% accuracy. They're looking for four things, four bad signs that say the marriage is in trouble. Dr. Gottman calls those four signs, the four horsemen of the apocalypse. I'm going to list them off quickly and then we'll go through each.

The first one is criticism. Two is contempt. Three is defensiveness for his Stonewall. Criticisms psychologists say that criticism and complaining are different. They're not the same complaining is saying something about someone's actions, right? It's critiquing actions. Let's say, whereas a criticism is attacking a person attacking their character.

They're not the same. Contempt is similar to criticism, but different. Dr. Gottman says this, he says, contempt is the intention to insult and psychologically abuse your part. And this looks like by the way, in a relationship, it looks like name calling. It looks like sarcasm. It looks like mockery.

Defensiveness is really the result of criticism and contemporary. We feel so attacked. We just put up our shield and defend ourselves. And this looks like blaming. It looks like making excuses and being unwilling to take responsibility. Stonewalling is a result of all these, right. These go into progression.

Stonewalling is where we just feel so overwhelmed. We're just done. We just emotionally check out. We shut down. We avoid our spouse at least emotionally. And, uh, supposedly 85% of Stonewall's are men. So this is something that we need to look out for our guys, especially, but these four signs is for bad signs.

Don't mean that your marriage is due. They just mean you're you're in trouble. And if these become habits, you're really heading off of a ledge. And so you need professional hub. Like now, if you see these in your relationship, those are the bad ways to handle conflict. How do we handle conflict in a healthy way?

There's five tips from that book, saving your marriage before it starts with the one at which I want to share with you, the first one is pick your battles, pick your battles, let the small things go get used to giving your spouse. This has been so helpful for me in my own marriage. My wife makes a lot of mistakes.

No, I'm just kidding. I'm definitely the one who makes more mistakes. Um, but you really, we can let things go. You don't need to voice your opinion about every little thing that your spouse does. Like you can let things go. You can bite your tongue. If they're big things, obviously bring those up. You can let the small things go extend grace.

Another thing you can do is practice. Put yourself in their shoes. It really requires you to detach from your emotions because in conflict, it's really hard to do this. And so one tactic they recommend is repeating what you hear your spouse saying, just to make sure you can fully understand where they're coming from.

Say it back to them. They say to define the real issue. So when tensions rise, you can ask the question, like, what are we really fighting about? Define what the fight is really about until both of you understand a little hint. It might not be the thing you're actually fighting about. It's usually something that's under the surface.

It's bigger than you really need to address. Take a break. They say, so our marriage, counselor, my wife, and I've been in marriage counseling. Uh, he taught us this little tactic called calling a time out. So when things get intense, uh, you needed to call a time out. So how does this work? It's a simple tactic before conflict.

You agree to a timeframe for a timeout. Okay. And it sounds like we're in a preschool, but it's sometimes we feel like that. But this is really good. So anywhere from 15 minutes to 24 hours, you set a set time. Let's say it's like an hour. And then in a conflict, when you guys are struggling, one of you can say, Hey, like I need, I need a time out.

And so then you take the time out. And then the person who calls a time out, they're the ones who keeps track of the time. And there were zoom the conversation as well. This is so helpful. It's been really helpful for my wife and I, because when we're emotional, especially when we're angry, our counselor taught us that our IQ.

By about 30 points or for those of us like me with an average IQ, that means like in the range of 70, which psychologists say is like the level of mental disability. And so we're literally trying to fight when we're super disabled and then finally actually resolve conflicts. So growing up, uh, we, my siblings and I barely saw conflict.

My parents. And they would tell you this, the way that they handle conflict, they would fight things, get loud. And then one or both of them will walk their separate ways. Like, I'm sure you guys have experienced that in your homes as well. So it set a horrible example for us to the point where I became really afraid of conflict and really unsure about how to handle it.

And so guys make sure you actually resolve conflict follow through here. And when you become parents, this is super, super important. When you become parents, make sure that your kids know that you've. Problems that they saw come up. Okay. So if you have a fight in front of your kids, make sure they know it's resolved.

Whether you do that in front of them, or later you go to them and say, Hey, mommy and daddy, we resolve this. My wife and I are trying to get in this habit. Now we've been doing pretty well with it. Um, where if our daughter who's seven months, right? She's, doesn't have an explicit memory at this point. Um, she sees this fight.

This is us fighting. We try to show her that, okay, we've made up we're we're good. Now we resolve this and we even say, sorry to her, that she had to experience. And so super good to make sure you resolve things. So if you want more tips like that, get the book, saving your marriage before it starts a few final things on handling conflict, uh, build trust, right?

Uh, conflict is so much easier when trust is high. Okay. How do you build. Th this is a whole nother talk too, but two, two quick things, vulnerability and consistency, vulnerability inconsistency, opening yourself up to even a scary extent and then continuing to show up so that, you know, you can rely on the other person, a business writer, pat Lencioni, Catholic business writer, pat Lynch.

He only says that trust makes conflict. The pursuit of truth. Trust makes conflict, that pursuit of truth. And so basically when we trust each other, when there's a conflict about maybe like, what should we do in this situation? That conflict is ordered to finding the best possible solution. It's not just a battle of egos.

Money is a huge area of conflict. It's the biggest area of conflict for married couples. It's one of the top causes of divorce, as I'm sure you guys have heard. So talk about it. Talk about money, make a plan for your money. Get on the same page with your money. I recommend Dave Ramsey's course. You can just look up financial peace university.

It eventually did really help my wife and I, and we have a good handle on our finances. So tip number five, learn to handle conflict. Tip number six, love your spouse. How they want to be loved.

If you want to listen to the whole talk, you can go to restored ministry, ministry, singular. Dot com slash marriage talk again. Restored ministry.com/marriage talk. Marriage talk is just one word, or you can just click on the link in the show notes. And in case you're not aware of one of the things that we offer as a nonprofit is coming into your school university, church, or event to give talks like the one you just heard.

And we have talks specifically for people who come from broken families and then more general talks as well. And so I've given talks for the archdiocese of Denver. The diocese of San Diego focus, the fellowship of Catholic university students, Franciscan university of Steubenville, avid Marine university, and the archdiocese of San Francisco.

And so if you're interested in booking a speaking engagement, we'd love to speak with you. You can email us@eventsatrestoredministry.com. Again, events@restorativeministry.com. We'd love to speak with you about possibly serving you. The resources mentioned during the show notes at restored minutes. Dot com slash 70.

Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful, feel free to subscribe. And if you know, someone is really struggling because of their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#070: Want a Great (Future) Marriage? Learn to Handle Conflict | Part 2

After his parents’ divorced, Joey feared repeating the same mistakes in his own marriage. He wanted to know, “How do I not repeat my parents’ mistakes?” He wanted authentic love but had no idea how to build it. It set him on a quest for answers and a roadmap for love. 

In this episode, you’ll hear a talk which offers a roadmap based on research, time tested couples, and the wisdom of Christianity. You’ll also learn:

• 4 signs that your relationship or marriage is headed off a cliff, according to researchers

• The biggest area of conflict in marriage and what to do about it

• Practical tips to make conflict healthy

• The one thing that makes conflict less scary and more manageable

• A resource for handling conflict better

If you want a build a healthy relationship and great marriage, this episode is for you.

Listen to the whole talk: 7 Tips to Build a Thriving & Divorce-Proof Marriage

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Inquire about an event: events@restoredministry.com

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

Transcript

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

After my parents separated and later divorce, I feared repeating the same cycle in my own relationship and marriage one day. And so I became obsessed with the questions. How do I avoid that? How do I not repeat my parents' mistakes? Because I wanted authentic love, but had no clue how to build it. I think that's true for some many of us, we all want.

But if we're honest, we're not quite sure how to go about building a healthy relationship and great marriage. I think that's even more true for those of us who come from broken families. Nobody's showed us how to build love and a marriage. And that leaves us feeling discouraged and even hopeless to the point where we give up on love.

We give up a marriage, we give up on commitment and we even settle for the. In this episode, I'm going to share a talk that offers a simple roadmap to build authentic love. And so you're going to hear a snippet of that talk, which touches on a few things. First four signs that your relationship or marriage is headed off a cliff.

According to researchers, the biggest area of conflict in marriage and what to do about it. Practical tips that you can use to make conflict healthy. The one thing that makes conflict less than. And more manageable and finally, a resource that you can use to handle conflict better to make conflict healthier in your relationship.

And so if you want a healthy relationship in great marriage one day, whether or not you come from a broken family, keep listening.

welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents. Separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Poncherelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 70 and that's part two of a small series. And what you're about to hear is a talk I gave to the college students of Ave Maria university in Florida.

The talk is titled seven tips to build a thriving and divorce proof marriage, actionable advice from research, the church and time tested. And so the content of the talk is not just my opinion or my limited experience within marriage, but it's really based on psychological research advice from really beautiful married couples who have built amazing marriages and finally wisdom from Christianity on marriage.

By the way, if that's not what you believe, you're not a Christian, you're still going to get a lot out of this. Talk, my challenge to you is just go into it with an open mind. There's a lot of human wisdom overall in this. I've given the sock primarily to college students and young adults. I think it's perfect for that audience, but older audiences have found it helpful as well.

But some of the feedback we've gotten from the young people, one woman who happened to be a newlywed, she was just married in the last six, seven months when she heard the talk, she listened to it three times in a row because she found it so helpful that the host of one of the events where I gave the talk said this, she said, a girl I just talked to on the phone, said that she was watching over zoom and thought it was so good.

Another young woman said it was probably the best talk that she's. Heard so lots of good feedback. I don't say that to boast, but just to assure you, this is worth your time. And so here's a snippet of that talk.

So tip number four, set healthy expectations for your marriage. Tip number five, learn to handle. This is so important. Um, one book said that conflict is the price you pay for intimacy. Conflict is the price you pay for intimacy that comes from the book, saving your marriage before it starts by doctors, Les and Leslie Parrott.

They're two psychologists. They're a married couple of men and a woman with the same name. It's hilarious. And so it's so true. It's so true. As you got close to someone in your life, conflict is inevitable. And in fact, if you're avoiding conflict in your serious relationship, it's usually not a good sign.

It either means you're a Saint or there's something off. And so the goal is not to avoid conflict, but rather to make conflict healthy, to make conflict healthy. So how do you do that? Dr. John Gottman, you might've heard of him. He and his team of researchers have researched. Marriage and conflict that for the past.

And what they would do is they invite married couples to their lab, which was this fancy apartment in Seattle, and then invite them out there on the west coast. And they would observe them over a weekend, let's say, and especially observed how they handle conflict. And now, supposedly this is kind of insane.

Supposedly they can predict with about 95% accuracy. Whether the couple is going to stay married or eventually get divorced. 95% accuracy. They're looking for four things, four bad signs that say the marriage is in trouble. Dr. Gottman calls those four signs, the four horsemen of the apocalypse. I'm going to list them off quickly and then we'll go through each.

The first one is criticism. Two is contempt. Three is defensiveness for his Stonewall. Criticisms psychologists say that criticism and complaining are different. They're not the same complaining is saying something about someone's actions, right? It's critiquing actions. Let's say, whereas a criticism is attacking a person attacking their character.

They're not the same. Contempt is similar to criticism, but different. Dr. Gottman says this, he says, contempt is the intention to insult and psychologically abuse your part. And this looks like by the way, in a relationship, it looks like name calling. It looks like sarcasm. It looks like mockery.

Defensiveness is really the result of criticism and contemporary. We feel so attacked. We just put up our shield and defend ourselves. And this looks like blaming. It looks like making excuses and being unwilling to take responsibility. Stonewalling is a result of all these, right. These go into progression.

Stonewalling is where we just feel so overwhelmed. We're just done. We just emotionally check out. We shut down. We avoid our spouse at least emotionally. And, uh, supposedly 85% of Stonewall's are men. So this is something that we need to look out for our guys, especially, but these four signs is for bad signs.

Don't mean that your marriage is due. They just mean you're you're in trouble. And if these become habits, you're really heading off of a ledge. And so you need professional hub. Like now, if you see these in your relationship, those are the bad ways to handle conflict. How do we handle conflict in a healthy way?

There's five tips from that book, saving your marriage before it starts with the one at which I want to share with you, the first one is pick your battles, pick your battles, let the small things go get used to giving your spouse. This has been so helpful for me in my own marriage. My wife makes a lot of mistakes.

No, I'm just kidding. I'm definitely the one who makes more mistakes. Um, but you really, we can let things go. You don't need to voice your opinion about every little thing that your spouse does. Like you can let things go. You can bite your tongue. If they're big things, obviously bring those up. You can let the small things go extend grace.

Another thing you can do is practice. Put yourself in their shoes. It really requires you to detach from your emotions because in conflict, it's really hard to do this. And so one tactic they recommend is repeating what you hear your spouse saying, just to make sure you can fully understand where they're coming from.

Say it back to them. They say to define the real issue. So when tensions rise, you can ask the question, like, what are we really fighting about? Define what the fight is really about until both of you understand a little hint. It might not be the thing you're actually fighting about. It's usually something that's under the surface.

It's bigger than you really need to address. Take a break. They say, so our marriage, counselor, my wife, and I've been in marriage counseling. Uh, he taught us this little tactic called calling a time out. So when things get intense, uh, you needed to call a time out. So how does this work? It's a simple tactic before conflict.

You agree to a timeframe for a timeout. Okay. And it sounds like we're in a preschool, but it's sometimes we feel like that. But this is really good. So anywhere from 15 minutes to 24 hours, you set a set time. Let's say it's like an hour. And then in a conflict, when you guys are struggling, one of you can say, Hey, like I need, I need a time out.

And so then you take the time out. And then the person who calls a time out, they're the ones who keeps track of the time. And there were zoom the conversation as well. This is so helpful. It's been really helpful for my wife and I, because when we're emotional, especially when we're angry, our counselor taught us that our IQ.

By about 30 points or for those of us like me with an average IQ, that means like in the range of 70, which psychologists say is like the level of mental disability. And so we're literally trying to fight when we're super disabled and then finally actually resolve conflicts. So growing up, uh, we, my siblings and I barely saw conflict.

My parents. And they would tell you this, the way that they handle conflict, they would fight things, get loud. And then one or both of them will walk their separate ways. Like, I'm sure you guys have experienced that in your homes as well. So it set a horrible example for us to the point where I became really afraid of conflict and really unsure about how to handle it.

And so guys make sure you actually resolve conflict follow through here. And when you become parents, this is super, super important. When you become parents, make sure that your kids know that you've. Problems that they saw come up. Okay. So if you have a fight in front of your kids, make sure they know it's resolved.

Whether you do that in front of them, or later you go to them and say, Hey, mommy and daddy, we resolve this. My wife and I are trying to get in this habit. Now we've been doing pretty well with it. Um, where if our daughter who's seven months, right? She's, doesn't have an explicit memory at this point. Um, she sees this fight.

This is us fighting. We try to show her that, okay, we've made up we're we're good. Now we resolve this and we even say, sorry to her, that she had to experience. And so super good to make sure you resolve things. So if you want more tips like that, get the book, saving your marriage before it starts a few final things on handling conflict, uh, build trust, right?

Uh, conflict is so much easier when trust is high. Okay. How do you build. Th this is a whole nother talk too, but two, two quick things, vulnerability and consistency, vulnerability inconsistency, opening yourself up to even a scary extent and then continuing to show up so that, you know, you can rely on the other person, a business writer, pat Lencioni, Catholic business writer, pat Lynch.

He only says that trust makes conflict. The pursuit of truth. Trust makes conflict, that pursuit of truth. And so basically when we trust each other, when there's a conflict about maybe like, what should we do in this situation? That conflict is ordered to finding the best possible solution. It's not just a battle of egos.

Money is a huge area of conflict. It's the biggest area of conflict for married couples. It's one of the top causes of divorce, as I'm sure you guys have heard. So talk about it. Talk about money, make a plan for your money. Get on the same page with your money. I recommend Dave Ramsey's course. You can just look up financial peace university.

It eventually did really help my wife and I, and we have a good handle on our finances. So tip number five, learn to handle conflict. Tip number six, love your spouse. How they want to be loved.

If you want to listen to the whole talk, you can go to restored ministry, ministry, singular. Dot com slash marriage talk again. Restored ministry.com/marriage talk. Marriage talk is just one word, or you can just click on the link in the show notes. And in case you're not aware of one of the things that we offer as a nonprofit is coming into your school university, church, or event to give talks like the one you just heard.

And we have talks specifically for people who come from broken families and then more general talks as well. And so I've given talks for the archdiocese of Denver. The diocese of San Diego focus, the fellowship of Catholic university students, Franciscan university of Steubenville, avid Marine university, and the archdiocese of San Francisco.

And so if you're interested in booking a speaking engagement, we'd love to speak with you. You can email us@eventsatrestoredministry.com. Again, events@restorativeministry.com. We'd love to speak with you about possibly serving you. The resources mentioned during the show notes at restored minutes. Dot com slash 70.

Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful, feel free to subscribe. And if you know, someone is really struggling because of their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#069: Want a Great (Future) Marriage? Do This | Part 1

After his parents’ divorced, Joey feared repeating the same mistakes in his own marriage. He wanted to know, “How do I not repeat my parents’ mistakes?” He wanted authentic love but had no idea how to build it. It set him on a quest for answers and a roadmap for love. 

In this episode, you’ll hear a talk that offers a roadmap to build love based on research, time-tested couples, and the wisdom of Christianity. You’ll also learn:

• An ingredient that research shows is essential to build a healthy relationship and great marriage

• Answers to the questions:

  • Can love actually last?

  • When feelings fade in your relationship, does that mean the end is near?

  • Is love worth the risk and possible hurt?

• A challenge to build love that lasts

If you want a build a healthy relationship and great marriage, this episode is for you.

Listen to the whole talk: 7 Tips to Build a Thriving & Divorce-Proof Marriage

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Love and Responsibility by Karol Wojtyla

• The Four Loves by C.S. Lewis

• Inquire about an event: events@restoredministry.com

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Transcript

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

After my parents separated and later divorce, I feared repeating the same cycle in my own relationship and marriage one day. And so I became obsessed with the questions. How do I avoid that? How do I not repeat my parents' mistakes? Because I wanted authentic love, but had no clue how to build it. I think that's true for so many of us, we all want.

But if we're honest, we're not quite sure how to go about building a healthy relationship and great marriage. I think that's even more true for those of us who come from broken families. Nobody's showed us how to build love and a marriage. And that leaves us feeling discouraged and even hopeless to the point where we give up on love.

We give up a marriage, we give up on commitment and we even settle for the. In this episode, I'm going to share a talk that offers a simple roadmap to build authentic love. And so you're going to hear a snippet of that talk, which touches on a few things. First, it touches on an essential ingredient that research shows is necessary to build a healthy relationship and great.

The talk answers. The questions can love actually less. So many of us doubt that when feelings fade in your relationship, does that mean the end is near and is love even worth the risk and the possible hurt. And then finally the talk offers a challenge for you. And so if you want a healthy relationship in great marriage one day, whether or not you come from a broken family, keep listening.

welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 69 and it's part one of a small. Series. And what you're about to hear is a talk I gave to the college students of Ave Maria university in Florida.

The talk is titled seven tips to build a thriving and divorce proof, marriage, actionable advice from research, the church and time tested. And so the content of the talk is not just my opinion or my limited experience within marriage, but it's really based on psychological research advice from really beautiful married couples who have built amazing marriages and finally wisdom from Christianity on marriage.

By the way, if that's not what you believe, you're not a Christian, you're still gonna get a lot out of this. Talk, my challenge to you is just go into it with an open mind. There's a lot of human wisdom overall in this. I've given the sock primarily to college students and young adults. I think it's perfect for that audience, but older audiences have found it helpful as well.

But some of the feedback we've gotten from the young people, one woman who happened to be a newlywed, she was just married in the last six, seven months. When she heard the talk, she listened to it three times in a row. Because she found it so helpful that the host of one of the events where I gave the talk said this, she said a girl I just talked to on the phone, said she was watching over zoom and thought it was so good.

Another young woman said it was probably the best talk that she's ever heard. So lots of good feedback. I don't say that to boast, but just to assure you, this is worth your time. And so here's a snippet of that talk.

Find a virtuous bouts or help your spouse build virtue. Tip number three, purify your idea of love. So marriage research shows that one of the essential ingredients to a great marriage is a realistic concept of love. In other words, knowing the truth about love it's Catholics. We kind of have an advantage here, but even for us, there's so many lies in the world when it.

To love. And so one of the lies that I fell into, and perhaps you can relate to this is thinking that love didn't actually last, like eventually it would crash and burn. It would fall apart and seeing my parents for a marriage fall apart, seeing them get divorced. This was ingrained deep inside of me. I really believe that love didn't last.

And even if it could last for some people, I didn't think it could last forever. But the truth is that love can last marriage can last, I've seen it. I've seen really beautiful couples. There's two in particular that I always think of that have been such an inspiration and even mentors to me, they've proved to me that love can not only last, but it can be really good and really beautiful.

I want my marriage to be like theirs. I hope you guys have couples like that in your life who can prove to you that love can last, especially. If you're doubting it because of what you've seen growing up, what you've seen around you and love can also last because we can choose to make it last love is a choice.

Another lie that I fell into was believing that feelings equal love, like intellectually. I knew this wasn't true, but for a long time on a subconscious emotional level, I definitely believe that feelings were the measure of love. More feeling more, love, less feeling, less love. And so in my relationships, when feelings would begin to fade, as they naturally do over time or change, I would freak out.

I become really anxious, like, wow, like is love ending. Am I going to lose this person? And so what I needed is, was to purify my idea of love. And John Paul, the second who really showed me the truth, when it came to love, says that love is not merely a feeling. It is an act of the will that consists of choosing in a constant manner.

The good of the blue. To the good of oneself and so feelings, they're a part of love, but they're only a part and there's certainly not the measure of authentic love. And so in your relationships, like all of you, like in your relationships, wherever you go in life in your marriages, when you're feeling start to fade, your love is not doomed.

It's actually just an invitation to love on a deeper, more mature level. And it's actually a good thing if you think about it, because you're forced to choose. What do I love more the feeling or the person? And so in our dating relationship, I would say it's problematic. If you've never had a romance like romantic feelings for a person, I think you should have romantic feelings for someone at least initially.

Um, but it's really important that we don't make decisions based on emotion alone. Like when in life is a good to make a decision on emotion alone and the real danger, if we just trust our emotions with these. So we'll end up walking away from a good relationship or even a marriage because we just don't feel it.

There was a study that asked divorce people. Why did you get divorced? And one woman, one woman said that. She said, I realized it was the lack of commitment on my part because I really didn't feel romantic toward him. I always felt like he was more of a friend to me how tragic, like obviously their romance needed a spark, but how sad to walk away?

From your relationship because you didn't feel romantic. Another lie that I believed was that love is too risky. It's not worth the risk. And it's true. Like if you love someone, if you put your heart out there, you're probably going to be hurt. It's going to happen. Any of you have been through breakups, you already know this.

I don't need to tell you this, but you know, it's more dangerous, you know, what's worse than being hurt. Never loving. CS Lewis. He said it the best CS Lewis said that she said to love it all to be vulnerable, love anything in your heart will be rung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give it to no one, not even an animal rapid, carefully around with hobbies and little luxuries of what all entanglements lock it up, safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness.

But in that casket, safe, dark motionless, airless, it will change. It will not be broken. It will become unbreaking. Impenetrable irredeemable to love is to be vulnerable. So that's the danger that if we don't love, we don't risk. If you don't be vulnerable, our hearts will become hard. And the truth that I've learned is that love is worth the risk.

Sure. There's pain involved, but if you work at it, the good far outweighs the bad and your life won't become easier. When you got married, when you choose to love. But your life will get better. And if you struggle here, if you struggle with this fear of being hurt, fear of intimacy, love marriage, all that.

I totally get this. That was me in high school. And even in college, I was terrified of love, relationships, dating, all that stuff. And it was primarily rooted in the fact that my parents' marriage fell apart. And I just didn't want that to eventually happen to me too. And so to overcome that fear, what I had to do is slowly begin to be vulnerable, especially in my relationships.

Relationships and by relationships, I mean my friendships. And so I did that in little ways and helped so much eventually to the point where I was able to pursue and date women one at a time. But, but slowly I was able to continue to overcome it and where it didn't control me, it didn't control me. And so I felt free.

I felt free to the point where, when I met my wife, I was able to pursue her, to ask her, to marry me. And now we're married and we're building our family. We have a baby girl she's seven months old. She's the. Thing ever. We're completely obsessed with her. Like

I was a guy. I would show you guys a picture if I could, but I don't think we have that all set up, but, but I I'm just, I'm just in awe that like, by God's grace, I don't say credit for this, but by God's grace, I am where I am, because I just kept taking little steps, relying on his grace to overcome this fear.

If I can do it, you can do it too. If that's. Do it scared do it gradually. Don't wait for your fear to disappear. Don't wait for that. It's not going to happen. Do it scared. Do it gradually act in spite of your fear, which is really the definition of courage. And it's okay for those of you, especially who come from broken families and you're really scared.

Um, it's okay. If you have to go a little bit. So my challenge for you guys here is to purify your idea of love. One exercise that you can go through with this is make a list of what you believe about love. Like on a subconscious level, it takes some time, take some work to identify those lies that you believe in are like acting on.

But once you know them, you can seek the truth. You can set up. Those lies with the truth. And so the question that you can think about pray with make lists, journal, all that good stuff is what lies do you subconsciously believe about love? So tip number three, purify your idea of love. Tip number four, set healthy expectations for your marriage.

Another central ingredient.

If you want to listen to this. Talk, you can go to restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/marriage. Talk again. Restored ministry.com/marriage talk. Marriage talk is just one word, or you can just click on the link in the show notes. And in case you're not aware, one of the things that we offer as a nonprofit is coming into your school university, church, or event to give talks like the one you just heard.

And we have talks specifically. People come from broken families and then more general talks as well. And so I've given talks for the archdiocese of Denver, the diocese of San Diego focus, the fellowship of Catholic university students, Franciscan university of Steubenville, avid Marine university, and the archdiocese of San Francisco.

And so if you're interested in booking a speaking engagement, we'd love to speak with you. You can email us@eventsatrestorativeministry.com. Again, events at restorative ministry. Dot com we'd love to speak with you about possibly serving you. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 69.

Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful, feel free to subscribe. And if you know, someone is really struggling because of their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#068: An Underrated Tactic to Heal from Your Parents’ Divorce | Salvatore Fiorenti

If you’re from a broken family, did your parents’ separation or divorce drag out for years? That was the story of our guest today. 

In this episode, you’ll hear what happened in his family and how it affected him. We also discuss:

• How he learned from an early age that his needs weren’t going to be met, so he had to figure out things for himself

• How our parents seem to have grown during the separation and divorce, but as their kids, we can’t help but ask the question: Why couldn’t you grow together?

• An underrated healing tactic that will help you heal, grow, set better boundaries, have healthier relationships, and feel at peace

• An important skill you have to learn if you want to heal, grow, and feel whole again

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)

Share your story
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• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Salvatore Fiorenti’s Email

  • fiorenti@cua.edu

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To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you're from a broken family, I'm curious, did your parents' separation and divorce drag out for years? That was the story of my guest. Today, as you'll hear in this episode, you also hear what happened in his family and how it affected him. In addition to that, we discussed how at an early age, he learned that his needs.

Weren't going to be met. So he had to figure things out for himself. He shares how we fell into bad habits, but after getting away from those, he then struggled with focusing so much on others and trying to rescue them that it became unhealthy too. We also talk about how our parents seemed to have grown during their separation and divorce, but as their kids were kind of torment with the question, why couldn't you just grow together?

He shares an underrated healing tactic that will help you heal, grow, set, healthy boundaries, have healthier relationships and feel at peace. We also discuss an important skill. You have to learn if you want to heal, grow and feel whole again. So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is. 68, as you might have heard. My new book is live on Amazon. It's titled it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce.

The sad truth is that for a lot of teens and young adults who come from broken families, the most traumatic thing that they've endured is their parents' separation and divorce, but nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and all the problems that stem from their family's break down. And without that guidance.

They continue to feel alone and struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles and so much more. And I experience these problems firsthand. It really shouldn't be this way. My book, it's not your fault is an answer to that problem. It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by teen to young adults from broken families, such as after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted and adequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me.

What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life events? How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage and so many more questions? The content is based on research, expert advice and real life stories. And after reading, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents' separation or divorce, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pained problems.

They'll learn healing tactics to help them feel whole again, they'll learn how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions about their future. So if you wanna buy the book or even just get the first chapters for free, go to restored ministry.com/books.

Again, restored ministry.com/books, or just click the link in the show notes today. My guest today is sale fear. Entity sales parents had a drawn out divorce and are not UN speaking terms. As a student of life. He has learned to advocate for himself and reflect on personal growth challenges. Sal is currently in school for his master of social work degree and enjoys spending time with his dog.

Charlie he's creative, funny and caring. Sal has only recently started talking about how his parents failed marriage has affected him. He's interested in connecting and supporting individuals wherever they may be in the process. He wanted to give a special shout out to resort's community for which he is grateful.

So shout out to everyone in resorts, online community. And here's my conversation with Sal

Sal. It's great to have you on the showman. Thanks for making time for us. Thank you, Joey. I know we have a lot to talk about, so I wanna dive right in. Uh, how old were you when your parents separated and divorced? So my parents got separated. I wanna say maybe when I was around nine or 10 years old. And at that time I really wasn't too sure what plants my parents had in terms of their marriage.

It might have been introduced as, uh, your dad needs some time to figure things out. You know, it was unclear. and that wasn't, that wasn't the final, I guess, conversation about, about that. Uh mm-hmm so my parents, I think, tried to make it work throughout my, uh, childhood in young adult years, but most of my childhood and young adult years, my parents lived separately and my childhood home, uh, was finally sold at the start of the pandemic.

So my parents. Dragged out the separation and divorce for quite some time. And I am 30. I will be turning 32. So maybe 2019 is when you know that that last piece of the divorce was sort of finalized. Okay. No, I follow you. Wow. That that's very drawn out. So things were kind of tumultuous or at least disjointed for you for years growing up and then kind of got finalized just recently.

So this is pretty fresh for you within the last, you know, few years, at least. So I appreciate you, you coming on and sharing what, what happened between your parents that led to all. I would say a main, the main issue really was, uh, a breakdown in communication, uh, between my dad and my mom, my dad, he is very short with his, uh, responses and he, he does tend to be pretty controlling.

My mother is somebody that likes to, uh, weigh options, have conversations about things. I would just say a lot more, uh, emotionally intelligent. and, um, it just from the get go, now that I'm older and I've had relationships and I, and I know how challenging they can be as well as, as, as rewarding for them to.

Go about life and try to figure, figure things out together as a team. Uh, they're just, their communication styles were completely different. So it was, uh, it was very hard. It, it, it seemed from what I can remember, uh, that either my dad had his way or my mom had her way. And I, I just, I struggle remembering a time where, you know, maybe both of their input created some sort of result or some.

Okay. Yeah. So you, what you witness over the years, like you said, was not them minutes like this United front a team working together to, you know, make the best decisions to resolve any issues that came up, but rather kind of them living on their own, which ultimately played out in them, not living together for.

You know, periods of your childhood. So that all makes sense. How did you see all of that that happened in your family, the breakdown of your parents' marriage, the separation, the later divorce, how did you see all that affect you personally? I think the main thing that really came up for me was in, in all the craziness, uh, I learned that my needs weren't going to be met and, uh, I didn't, I didn't really advocate much for myself at that age.

Uh, I didn't go up to a teacher and say, Hey, you know, what's going on at home is pretty crazy. Mm. Or, you know, when I was at my dad's workplace, you know, I could have, I could have pulled one of his colleagues aside and, and could have asked, you know, what's he like when he is here? You know, I definitely kept a lot of stuff to myself and just really focus on a lot of other people to sort of distract, distract myself from, you know, my, my inner Turmo.

So I would say if I'm not advocating for myself, if I'm not aware for my, uh, not aware of my needs, then I probably, I know I struggled with, uh, setting boundaries with people, uh, in relationships, I would say finding the middle ground and, and compromising has been difficult for me. Mm-hmm . so, you know, those are areas that, that I'm still, uh, working on.

No, absolutely. I think it's always a work in progress, even for people who've maybe made some, um, improvements in their life. There it's always, there's this dichotomy to balance in a lot of ways. So that, that totally makes sense. I mean, I wanna go back to something you said about kind of focusing on others.

I noticed that in myself too, uh, for a lot of, you know, the aftermath of my parents' separation. I tended to kind of initially I was so hurt that I just acted out in all sorts of unhealthy ways. Like by getting sucked into pornography, you know, getting, being super angry, having a lot of emotional problems and, and other ways of acting out.

But in time, I was able to kinda, you know, put that in the past that stuff in the past, which was really freeing. Uh, but then I kind of fell into this being a rescuer and trying to, instead of maybe dealing with my own pain and my own needs, I kind of just shoved them down. And I decided to focus on what I thought was loving other people, which in a lot of ways, looked like.

Solving their problems filling their needs. Um, which I think the desire was good, just the way I went about it often. Wasn't the healthiest. And so I'm curious how that played out in your life, cuz obviously, you know, you're becoming a social worker now you're dedicating your life to helping people, which is such a good and beautiful thing.

But as we've talked separately, there's a balancer. Of course. So I'm curious, kind of yeah. How that played out in terms of being a fixer, being a rescuer in terms of maybe distracting you from, uh, the pain that you were dealing. Sure. Uh, well, I just also wanna say Joey, you know, thank you so much for, uh, everything that you do and, uh, you know, really prefacing this question by being transparent and, you know, talking about how you've struggled.

So of course ma'am yes, I, I I've definitely, uh, can relate to so much of what you're saying. Uh, for me, impulse, uh, in my younger years, you know, led me down many of those paths as. And, uh, yes, I mean, I am pursuing social work. Uh, I do work with people that are vulnerable and are working on themselves and there is, there is this reward that I, that I get from it, uh, I think over the years and I probably will continue working on this.

It seems like it's a lifelong journey is I think the more accepting that I am of myself. The less need, I will feel to rescue someone else. Uh, we were talking just before we started the conversation about being a compassionate presence. So, you know, I'm, I'm getting all of this training, uh, but what good is it?

If I can't meet people where they are, I don't wanna start projecting my insecurities on them. You know, I, I can be there for them. Uh, I could show them that I care and that I'm interested in their story. More or less guide them through their journey. Yeah. Not so much about giving them answers or celebrating this epiphany moment.

They may have. It's probably more, it's more or less about setting up guardrails and letting them letting them. Choose a direction how they wanna move in. Okay. No, that makes so much sense. And something you said really struck me about how becoming more accepting of yourself would give you the ability. I I'm paraphrasing here of setting those boundaries properly and not projecting your own needs and your own, um, struggles onto the people that you're serving.

Um, that really struck me as powerful. I, I'm just curious for everyone listening. Who's, you know, learning from you like I am right now. What, um, Yeah. Would, would you maybe elaborate that a little bit? Like to, to a lot of people listening here, here's where I'm coming from with this, it might, they might not make the connection of what you just said.

Like they might not understand, like why is accepting yourself with all your imperfections, all your struggles and all the good things about you too. Why is acceptance key for, you know, setting good boundaries and having healthy relationships? Of course. I mean, I can wake up, you know, tomorrow morning and I refer to him as the, uh, as my monster, the voice on my shoulder, the, uh, self doubt.

And first thing, when I wake up in the morning, that voice can say, you know what, Sal, you don't have this or Sal, you don't run as fast, or as far as you used to. And, you know, I listen to that voice or I give that monster some head space, you know, for. A minute. It doesn't even have to be a minute. And the next thing you know, the whole day can be.

I'm not good enough. What do I need? What do I need to achieve? How can I impress people? How can I be lights as opposed to this is who I am. I can have goals and work towards them, but in the present moment, I'm complete. Mm. And it's just, it's just a total different, it's just, it, it's a, it's a, it's a different mindset and I'm, and I've been struggling with it.

I'll be ruthlessly honest because you know, one week of work, that's a little tough. I. You know, maybe friends, you know, canceling plans, things start to happen. Maybe you get a parking ticket. And then, you know, all of a sudden you're like, you know what, all these things are going wrong. Right? It's like the, uh, the drop of ink that clouds up the whole fish tank.

And then, you know, it, it's just, it's a cycle. You don't, you don't get enough rest. You wake up in the morning and the cycle starts all over again. You know, I'm tired. And if I just have this one thing, then I'll feel better. Wow. As opposed to, you know, working on just really accepting, accepting what you have, um, knowing that we are complete and we are love for who we are.

It's hard, man. I, I, I, it is. I know, I don't, I know I don't have a, a great understanding of it because. I mean, no one, no one is inside my head or, you know, watching me from the curb and saying, oh, Sal just had, you know, this self doubt, you know, mm-hmm let me, let me pull him aside and give him a quick pep talk.

You know, you have to know, you have to know how much space you're giving to that monster throughout the day. And it doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be this cynical voice. It's not, it's not extreme. It can be very subtle. Yeah. Wow. No, this is so good. You you're nailing on so many points. I think we all need to hear cuz I, I, you know, I deal with that too, where I think we all have these different versions of ourself within us.

Right. And we wanna think that we're just the best version of ourself. Right. Um, but. often we're tempted like that monster, like you said, tempts us to think that no, we're actually that lesser version of ourself. We're that worse version of ourself. But I, I think what you're saying, what I hear you saying is that the there's so much freedom in coming to the realization and acceptance to where even where you like, feel it in your bones.

It's like, you're both. You're the best version of yourself. And you're the worst version of yourself that that's all you. And if you stop trying to, you know, maybe shame that worst version of yourself and pretend that you're only that best version of yourself, um, at least what I've found in my life, there's so much peace.

There's more freedom I'm able to have, like you said, healthy relationships, I'm able to avoid bad habits and. Better habits, healthier habits and on and on and on. And so I, I think this can't be, it seems like it's such a subtle thing. Like, uh, it sounds kind of corny, honestly, when we talk about like accepting yourself to someone who maybe hasn't, you know, been around this sort of, um, Conversation before mm-hmm , but it's so, so key.

And, uh, again, it's something that, that I'm, uh, you know, trying to get better at too. And again, when I've noticed, when I do, when I just have this kind of kindness towards myself, when I just can say, okay, I am the way I am, I, I wanna improve and grow, but I'm not gonna shame myself and, you know, make myself feel horrible for.

You know, struggling in the ways that I have. Again, I'm always trying to improve and overcome my weaknesses, but, but there is that level of acceptance as like, Hey, I am the way I am here. I am right now, I will grow, but I'm not gonna be, I'm not gonna grow by telling myself I'm so horrible. That's just gonna prevent me from growing.

Right. I think, I think some of the best mentors I've had throughout the course of my life would remind me, or encourage me to strive for the best, but know that. Accepting what I have and what I've accomplished and just who I am in the present moment would be the first step on that journey. So good. You made me think of a book.

I haven't read it. Uh, perhaps you have, I think the title was you're not enough and that's okay. And, uh, and I, I think something powerful about that, and that goes to the point that we're talking about right now, how, you know, we, we don't need to be perfect in order to be kind to ourselves to accept ourselves, to even live ourselves, so to speak.

Um, we, we can do that right now where we're at so good. I wanted to shift gears a little bit and talk about your relationships. So in your dating relationships, I'm just curious how you've perhaps struggled and especially struggled in relation to the breakdown of your family, of your parents' marriage.

Um, what, what issues have you seen there? Well, I would say that I probably put a very big emphasis on just being in a relationship and showing to the world. That I can do it, that I can make it work. And, uh, throughout, throughout my life, it's kind of looked, it's kind of looked different, you know, maybe, maybe one girlfriend was very pretty.

Maybe another girlfriend was at the top of her field. And I, I would say that I would say that most people, if not all, would want to be proud, you know, be having a partner that. That, um, adds, adds to their life. Right? Sure. But for me, it kind of, it kind of felt like it kind of felt like, I don't know, like a saving grace and I would say that even, even from my, uh, you know, when my parents, when they par, when they got separated, Maybe even before then, you know, I, I remember going on walks, maybe they had a fight or something like that.

And I would just kind of just kind of tune out in my, in my head and think, oh, well, one day I will I'll have my own family and everything will be fine. Mm. So definitely I definitely would identify as a hopeless, romantic, and I would say dating, dating now. It all, it all goes back to what we were talking about.

Maybe a couple minutes ago about. Accepting accepting myself and finding someone that is really going to add to my life. And if it's someone that I'm trying to rescue, it's probably gonna be a slippery slope. So it's about someone that someone that's gonna make my life better as opposed to making my life worse.

And it's, it's been, it's been a journey. I've been meeting a lot of wonderful people, a lot of interesting people. I've had a couple of knee jerk reactions throughout the years dating. So I know, you know, what I certainly want to avoid, but it's, it's definitely been a while since I've, since I, you know, could call someone my partner, my girlfriend, and, uh, I'm working on it, you know, definitely a work in progress.

Yeah, no, it, it sounds like you wanna partner, not a project. I think so often we fall into looking for a project. Um, like you mentioned, there's numerous reasons maybe for that, that, that makes sense. Do you want someone who's gonna be able to love you and not just. Have maybe a one way relationship. I know a lot of my relationships that even friendships that were turned unhealthy, um, seemed so one sided where I was like giving, giving, giving, but never like receiving, never kind of being loved in return, so to speak.

And not because my friends were evil or malicious, that's not what I'm saying, but just because of the dynamic of the relationship where I was maybe trying to help them or fix them or rescue them. And what ended up happening was. It just became unhealthy and then we got close and then I would pull away because I realized how unhealthy it would become.

And then that caused maybe even more hurt than the original hurt that I was trying to help them deal with. right. So just messy situation. But, um, that, that makes sense. What you're looking for now. And I, I totally get the struggle of, of actually finding it in terms of you being a hopeless romantic. I think that might just be due to the fact that you're Italian.

Because I can I can relate to that one. but no, no kidding. Kidding aside. I'm I, I totally get that. Uh, you know, you wanted something better and perhaps it feels out of reach, even if at one point in time you were thinking like, oh yeah, I'll I'll have a, a better family, a better marriage. Yeah. What were, um, yeah.

Could please, if you had anything to add to that, I'd love to hear. Yeah. It, it, you know, I don't know, I guess, I guess, uh, I don't really remember, you know, in health class or, you know, even in high school, any sort of talk about healthy relationships or, or, uh, you know, what is there to gain from being in a healthy marriage?

What is, what can life look like? Or what is. I guess what could be expected of, you know, a man or a woman in, in a marriage. And I think it would be better to kind of get that, get that in school, as opposed to, you know, flipping through a magazine and seeing pictures of, you know, a Playboy, you know, with girls under his shoulders or, you know, go into the movies and you see.

I don't know, American pie. And you, you think that's what college is gonna be like? Yeah. So, so I would say, you know, it's, it, it's hard being a hopeless romantic, and then maybe being exposed to some of the extreme situations. And not knowing, not knowing what that, I don't know. I don't want to make, I don't wanna say there's a middle ground between, uh, like monogamy and American pie.

uh, but it what I'm trying to say is there there's so much that we we're, there's so many questions that we're really just trying to figure out for ourselves and it, it does take a. Yeah, no, it's a great point. And I know I kind of went back and forth between this, these two extremes. And we've noticed this with a lot of people through this nonprofit, through this podcast, even alone, where on one hand, we just have such a hope for something so much better, almost for like a perfect ideal relationship and marriage.

And then in the opposite hand, we just have this complete doubt, uh, at. Part of ourselves. That's just like, that is not possible. That's not gonna happen. At least not for me. And I dealt with both of those and there's, you know, struggles that come along with each. Um, so, so I totally get what you're saying and even, yeah.

Understanding, seeing beautiful examples of good marriages and how it makes life better. That it's few and far between. I think that we, we see that you're absolutely right. And it's sad because. What I've experienced in marriage now is certainly, there are hard times. I don't wanna glamorize it. I think some people glamorize marriage way too much, but, um, what I've seen is, you know, if you work at it, There's good and bad that comes with it.

But if you work at it, the good does outweigh the bad and there's some such beautiful, you know, seasons and parts of marriage that, um, just make life really beautiful, really joyful brings so much happiness and freedom. And it's hard to explain that until. I, if someone would've went back in time, if you know, someone explained that to me, when I was like, I dunno, 15 or 18 even.

Um, I don't know if I would've been able to quite understand what they were talking about, but I think you're right. We do need to see those beautiful examples and really answer that question. Like what is to gain from a healthy marriage, right? Wanna shift gears to, uh, healing and, and coping. Uh, what were a few things, maybe two or three things that helped you cope in healthy ways and find some healing.

Sure. I would say exercise, uh, when I was younger, uh, I was a big runner and, uh, since I've mellowed out and I don't, I don't necessarily carry that same amount of anger. Um, I haven't been running as much as I would like to, but I mean, I could probably say running running really helped me out when times were difficult.

Music. Uh, I love electronic dance music. It just kind of, you know, it's just, it's just, I, it brings me to the special place. It's just very upbeat. Yeah. It's just, I don't know. I've always, I've always enjoyed EDM. Uh, I would probably say, uh, Aviche is one of my, one of my favorites and therapy. I mean, I'm pursuing, uh, social work.

I've been in therapy for many years. I've done group therapy. So just a desire to understand myself better. Mm-hmm , uh, to cultivate empathy, accept myself and, and work towards, you know, just a, a, a life full of purpose, a life worth, uh, living as. Uh, Marsha Linehan would call it the creator of D B T. Love it.

No, that's amazing. And I've found those, all those things helpful as well. And it's always kind of baffled me about music. Like why is music so helpful? And I think there's a lot to it. Two, two of the things we had some, uh, two, uh, married, couple, uh, husband and wife, uh, duo, who are artists? Come on the podcast.

I forget the, um, exact episode when they came on, but it was cool. We, but I asked them like, why, why is music so helpful in helping us like, not feel alone and helping us kind of deal with the pain in our lives. And there were like two things that they mentioned. One was that it helps us kind of put difficult experiences and emotions into words often.

Like certain songs can, can do that. And then two, it helps us not feel alone, cuz it's like, okay, there's at least this person who's singing the song, the person perhaps who wrote the song as well, who obviously have a deep understanding of this. So they probably have gone through this themselves. Um, so that's, uh, can helps us not feel alone as well, which I, I thought was.

Right, right. I would say for me, you know, if someone were to ask me, how do you feel right now? I would say, well, I don't know, but how about listening to this song? And you know, this, we could talk about it. Like this song means something to me. Uh, if you have a listen, we could talk about it. You could let me know how you feel.

Maybe you don't even like this song, but it could be, it could be have, it could be a conversation worth having. Yeah, no. So good. Yeah. That honestly still is a go-to coping mechanism for me. Like, just like you said, of listening to certain artists, certain music that, um, perhaps expresses in towards, and even lyric or not just lyrically, but even musically what I'm experiencing, what I'm feeling better than I could perhaps do on my own, which is really helpful.

So, so good. Lots of good tips, uh, in this whole interview from you. I do wanna ask. So now. You know, you've been working on yourself, trying to heal, especially as someone who's helping other people, you accurately know that you need to work on yourself first, which is awesome. There's sadly, a lot of people, at least that I've known who go into, um, the helping professions, whether it's medicine or, you know, psychology, and they maybe neglect working on their.

And so I think it's so powerful that you are someone who's going down that path and who's actively working on yourself. So the question is this, like, you're obviously still working on stuff we all are, but I'm curious, how is your life different? How is it better now that you've healed and you've grown some, I think I've just become more trusting of others.

The, the more transparent I am. And the more people I get to know, and, and I get to hear some stories and see where people have come from. And it just, it just always gives me, it always gives me a perspective, a time, a time that really helped me was when I was working as a preschool teacher's assistant, my mind just felt saturated with all of these master's level courses and assignments.

And I'm working towards this degree. Is it gonna make me happy? Is it. Be fulfilling. And then I'm seeing kids just playing and making new friends and things just seemed so simple and pure. And I was just like, wow, like this is, this was really, it was really helpful. Uh, cuz it gave me some perspective. Hmm.

So I think, I think the healing can come when you, when you're not expecting it. And I think it's also a grind. So, you know, being in therapy. Trying to just dig deeper and, and build upon my last sessions, spending the time to think about, uh, what I wanna work on and just, just be open about the therapeutic relationship itself.

It's kind of weird, you know, it's kind of weird sometimes to talk about. If I've had experiences where I was definitely attracted to the female therapist, you know, I don't know. I don't know what the conversation would've been like, but it probably, it would've been challenging for me to have said, Hey, like, you know, the past three sessions, I haven't really been, uh, able to dig deep, you know, and, and kind of talk about the, the vulnerable stuff, because I'm kind of attracted to you or whatever.

You know, and on the other end, too, like, guys can be guys can be trustworthy. So it's, you know, sometimes having a male therapist, I'm like, man, this guy, you know, maybe he doesn't give it about me, you know? So, but then you, you, you, you work on the relationship and you, you, you talk about it. And, uh, and that's, that's been a, that's been a growing point for me too.

Cause uh, quick story. I was reading this, uh, I was reading this, uh, relationship book. Uh, I don't remember the name of the author, but she, she had a lot of Western ideas when it came to dating and relationships and she probably, she's probably a relationship coach or therapist. And she she's told, she's told about some goo guru in India that has foolproof relationship advice, and that she has to make this trip to India and find this guru.

Hmm. So she makes all of the arrangements and she flies to India. She meets the guru. And, um, she leans in to, to hear the guru, give the relationship advice, and she's, she had to take off from work. She flies thousands of miles and the guru just whispers in her ear. Thank you. And this relationship expert is like, what do you mean?

Thank you. And the guru said, that's my, that's my advice. That's what you, that's what you would wanna say to your partner is thank. . And when I read that, I was like, wow, like, you know, that's, that's so simple, but you know, how come I don't do it? You know, how come I don't mm-hmm how come I don't say, you know, thank you to the people that I'm closest to for just being a part of my life or for talking to me, or for sending me that text message, you know, it's easier for me to.

Well, you know what, every time they come over, I treat them to dinner or whatever it is, or the drinks are on me, you know? Sure. And as opposed to, as opposed to starting with the, the thank you and just appreciating, appreciating them for, for the positive impact, I would say that. That the people in my close circle have on me.

Wow. So many good things. The one thing I wanted to go back to, in addition to what you just said was how guys can be trustworthy. I think a lot of us struggle with that, cuz for so many of us. Maybe our dads didn't live up to what we had hoped for live up to what they really should have been. And that can cause us to feel like, yeah, like men are in trustworthy know I've dealt with that too.

So yeah. Being around men like yourself, who, who are good and who are trustworthy, has been really healing and helpful for me too. Uh, about that skill of, uh, really opening up, I guess, uh, it, some people, especially, I think men fall into thinking that's like some sort of weakness to be. Maybe emotional or to talk from like the level of your heart, as opposed to just your mind.

Mm-hmm I grew up in a family where things weren't very emotional. Um, and so kind of expressing feelings wasn't necessarily a normal. And honestly, I had to learn. So like I had to learn how to do that. Like, it was actually a skill, it sounds maybe dumb to some people listening right now, but I literally had to learn like, how do I say something and not just such a cut and dry, like intellectual way, but how do I share what I'm feeling, share something from like the level of my heart.

And like, how do I do that? It literally was something I had to learn. And then as I did it more and more, it became more natural. But man doing that initially was so awkward it was just like, I, I, I didn't know how to do it. And uh, and I think that's something that if you're not there, those of you listening right now, if that's something you struggle with, like I get it.

Um, but I would challenge you there and try. You know, just like Sal saying here, just like the story of the relationship guru who went to, or, or Oxford who went to that guru in India, um, you know, opening up more and just sharing deeper parts of your heart, as opposed to keeping things on the surface or keeping things, just intellectual level, kind of from your head instead of from your heart.

I would say Joey, I think that's great. Um, I, you know, and it's also, you can, you can bond, uh, with people over that, that journey. So I came from a family where let's all be angry at the same thing. And, and maybe that's how we can, we can bond, right? Mm-hmm . But if you surround yourself with people that are supportive and emotionally intelligent and are flexible and are open minded and are looking for answers ultimately for, you know, on their journey.

It's like, Hey, like I'm on a journey. Hey, you're on a journey too. Like traveler recognize as traveler, you know? Yeah. We can be supportive towards one another. So it is, we don't have to do it all alone. Mm-hmm so good, man. This has been such a great interview. I did wanna ask if, uh, if, if you could sit down with your parents, like, let's say your parents were listening right now, what would you want them to know?

What would I want them to know? Hmm. I guess, you know, I guess. I know they've grown so much, uh, being apart from one another mm-hmm , but I think every, I would say every kid who has parents that are divorced wishes, that wishes that they could have made things work. So, yeah. You know, so maybe, maybe some, you know, Hey Sal, you know, we can't do that for you.

And we're really sorry. But yeah, there's always that there's always that why can't, why can't, you know, why can't mom and dad be together. Right. You know? Yeah. I think every, everyone needs, everyone needs, you know, two parents. Yeah. It's just, it's just that simple. Yeah. No it is. And that makes so much sense.

And I, I too have seen my parents grow on their own and in some ways their lives have become better, um, E even apart. And, uh, yeah, for me, my, my feeling, and I know my siblings feel similarly is like, why couldn't you guys just do that together? And, uh, and it is sad and I really wish that, you know, it didn't break apart the way it had.

Um, so, so now I'm right there with you. Um, really appreciate you opening up and sharing so much. If people wanna connect with you, how can they do that? We will, uh, link my email, I guess, to the podcast. That's cool. . Yeah, absolutely. That'll be great. So guys, we'll throw that in the show notes. If you wanna reach out to Sal, you can, um, email him and he'd be happy to, to hear from you and Sal.

I wanna give you the last word. Um, but before I do again, thank you so much for your vulnerability, uh, for just your articulateness. It's everything you've said has just been so good and so helpful. Um, and so while you're sharing your own story, I think there's so many lessons baked into this conversation, which a lot of people, thousands of people for years to come are gonna learn from you.

So thank you so much for being willing to come on for opening up and for sharing your great advice in, uh, in closing. Just what words of encouragement, what advice would you give to someone who feels broken? And who feels stuck in life, uh, because of their broken family, because of the breakdown of their parents' marriage, what encouragement and advice would you give to them?

I mean, it's, it's possible. It's possible right now. There's, you know, a teen sitting on the curb lost in thought, you know, his parents are fighting and he, or she asking themselves, you know, what the hell does this mean? Um, what's gonna happen. What's my life gonna look like all those, all those questions.

and, you know, I still, I still kinda have that self talk, uh, but it's a lot different now. So we're all at different stages, but there's so much that we have in common with the person that is, you know, like I said, sitting on the curb right now. Uh, so I think, you know, what I would want for everyone to, you know, take away from this is.

You know, Joey, I was, you know, telling you, Hey man, I was to do this interview and I needed, I needed more time. And you were like, you're gonna do just fine. Uh, it's really helpful to, to talk with someone, to get those thoughts out there and to just be a human being, you know, to understand that everyone wants to be happy.

And if I can share and be as real as I can be, and someone reaches out to me and. You know what I wanna, I wanna do an interview myself or, or even challenges me or, or offers any sort of criticism. I know that I'm open to it and it's, it's, it's just, I think it's, this is such a, this is such an area for, for growth and for clarity, uh, because maybe that kid on the curb.

Loss in chaos and he may, he, or she may feel like the clarity is never gonna come, but know that it will. So I am also still looking for, you know, for my answers and, and I hope that I can help. And, and I do hope that people can be of help to me. So, Joey, thank you so much for everything that you do for us,

a question for you to reflect. What would it take for you to accept yourself as you are? And to be clear, I'm not condoning apathy. I'm not condoning continuing bad habits, but like you heard us discuss being brutally honest and accepting yourself where you are in life is an essential step to heal and grow into the better person that you wanna be.

So what would it take for you to accept yourself as you are? And that's my challenge work on that next time you wanna beat yourself up for your struggles? Just say to yourself, this is where I'm at right now. And make sure to give yourself some grace, just like you would with a friend who was struggling.

If you'd like to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. There's three easy steps to do that. But first, some of the benefits of sharing your story, reflecting on your story is actually healing on a neurobiologic level. Further writing your story is healing studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed, less anxious.

They're healthier. And they're HAPPI. Additionally, sharing your story with someone else is healing on a neuro biological level as well. And it also gives guidance and hope to people who are struggling, because what we do is we take your story and then we put it on our blog in an anonymous format. So if you wanna share your story, here's how you do it.

Just go to restored ministry. Dot com slash story. The form will guide you in telling a, a short version of your story. It takes a little bit of time, but not long. And then we'll turn it into an anonymous blog article like I mentioned. So if you wanna share your story, just go to restored ministry.com/story, or click the link in the show notes.

The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 68, and that includes sales email address. If you wanna get in touch with. Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful. Feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from their parent's divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with.

Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#067: Breaking the Cycle of Dysfunction in Your Marriage | Pierre & Maria Lareau

If you’re from a broken family, becoming independent and breaking the cycle can be extremely attractive. It certainly was for my guests, a married couple where both spouses from a broken family.

They share what happened in their families, how it’s affected them, their marriage, and even their kids. We also discuss:

• Why one of their mentors encouraged them to begin counseling as a dating couple

• The questions their kids have about their divorced grandparents

• How our parents often compete for our loyalty

• Why beating a victim mentality is so freeing

• One thing that helped them deal with the dysfunction in their families

If you come from a broken family and you’re headed toward marriage, this episode is for you.

Tell us how Restored has helped you

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• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Episode 44: Practical Tips for Becoming a Great Parent | Mike & Alicia Hernon

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

For a lot of us from broken families, especially those of us still living at home in the dysfunction, becoming independent and breaking the cycle can be extremely attractive. And that was absolutely true for my guests today, who happened to be a married couple where both spouses come from a broken family, they've actually been long time friends of mine.

I saw both of their parents' marriages and families fall apart. And each of them, their families and their siblings included were a big part of the motivation for this podcast and the ministry behind it. And so in this episode, they share what happened in their families, how it's affected them personally and affected their marriage and even their kids.

We also discuss why one of their mentors encouraged them to begin counseling as a dating couple, we talk about the questions their kids have asked about their divorced grandparents. We touched on how our parents often compete for our loyalty. We talk about why beating a victim mentality is so freeing, and then they mention one thing that has helped them deal with the dysfunction in their families.

If you come from a broken family and you're headed toward marriage at some point in your life, this episode is for you very practical and inspiring episode. So keep listening,

welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey. Pelli thanks so much for listening. This is episode 67. My guests today are peer and Maria Lubo. They've been happily married for almost nine years.

PI works in the concrete construction industry. Maria's a stay-at-home mom and a licensed cosmetologist together. They have four beautiful children. They homeschool, they volunteer at their church and additionally, they're expanding their property, learning how to farm and even become self-sufficient.

They enjoy helping others, camping game nights and learning about farming. Before we dive into the conversation, we talk a little bit about God and faith. They're Catholic Christians. And so that's gonna come up in the conversation if that's not your background, if you don't believe in God, we're really happy.

You're here. My challenge to you is this, listen with an open mind. If you, even, if you take the God parts out, there's still so much good stuff in this episode. So listen with an open mind. I guarantee you're gonna benefit from it. Here's my conversation with my friends, pier and Maria

pure and Maria. Welcome to the show. Hi Joey. Hi. It's so good to have you guys. It's been a long time coming. I've wanted to have you for, for a while, so I'm glad we could finally do this. Um, it's always tough to kind of go back in time, cause I've known you guys such a long time to those dark times in our lives.

When things with our families, uh, were especially bad. But I think for everyone listening, it's so helpful. So let's go there. Um, tell me if you would, how old were you guys when your parents separated and divorced? You wanna go first? ladies first ladies first. Okay. I was 16 when my parents separated and filed for divorce and I believe I was 18 when their divorce was finally finalized.

I'm the oldest of four kids. And so at the time the youngest was 11. Yeah, I'm doing my math. Right. all right. The youngest child was 11. and I was the oldest at 16. Yeah. And, uh, I think I was roughly, for me, it's hard to pinpoint, you know, it, it was, it was more of a gradual your parents separated and got back together.

Couple of times. It was, yeah, there was a couple, quite a few times. It was, it was in the late, my late teen years. So it was probably six, you know, 16. And then 17 is when it got really serious. And then I think it wasn't until I was 18 or 19 until it was more finalized. Um, and I also am the oldest of I'm the oldest of five.

And so my younger, my youngest sibling was, oh, gosh, I don't know, 12, 12 years younger than me. So yeah, she was little 4, 5, 6, 6, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Six, six. Yeah. So yeah, no, that makes sense. And you guys are in a particularly difficult world, which I want to get into being the oldest. There's so much that you're, threated into.

I sell that with my other brother as well, just taking over so much responsibility. Like you really shouldn't have to take over just because there's this void when, when mom and dad go separate ways. So, uh, that makes a lot of sense. Uh, if you would share to whatever level you're comfortable, what would happened?

You know, I think that for myself, I, I think that I, I can look back on the stories I've heard for my parents' marriage and like what I witnessed fr from a small age up until the point where they did separate that there were a lot of bad habits established in their marriage and even in their dating relationship before marriage.

And I, I remember my parents fighting a lot growing up. Wasn't uncommon. For them to be, you know, tucked away in dad's office, you know, having a screaming match. But I think what really brought it out was when I became a teenager, you know, a teenager, especially being, um, in high school, they want a little more independence.

They wanna do this, they wanna do that. And my dad was not comfortable with us doing a lot of different things or us spending a lot of time doing different things, um, that my mom wanted us to do. And that controlling aspect really manifested itself. And it wasn't something that I even think, I don't think she realized how bad and how controlling he was until he really saw it being manifested in her children.

Or she really saw it being manifested in her children like that. He's trying to control everything that they do. Him being controlling, kind of opened her eyes. Into what was going on in her marriage. What do you think for yourself? For me? I, I think it was a, it was more of a, it wasn't apparent at the time when it was happening to me and more thinking of it now though, I think, I think it was more of a slow, oh, what's the word?

Degradation, degradation degradation of, um, you know, where, where it was just because my mom, my mom was Catholic or is Catholic, I should say. And my dad is, or was loosely Lutheran. Yeah. Lutheran is what it was. Okay. You know, so to start, you know, to start, there was, there was a serious moral difference and religious difference, religious difference, I should say more so, um, that makes sense, you know, and, and it was kind of two worlds trying to work together.

And, and it was a lot of, of my dad not being there cuz he owns his own owns his own company, runs his own construction company, you know, which in itself is a lot of work. Yeah. But then, you know, it dive him diving into that. And then, you know, my mom trying to step in and, and find the, or fill, fill both the roles bearing himself in his work and, and not being the Catholic role model she wanted you to have.

Yeah. Yeah. And because it was, it was almost, oh, I don't wanna say ironic, but he finally went through R C I a became Catholic, I think in 2006. I remember that. Yeah. And, and then, and then a year later, You know, it was, it was, he was, it just exploded and everything hit the plan, you know, so it was almost like there was an appeasement process and then it was just like, you know what, forget this.

And then everything exploded. And, and then things got worse. There was, there was some cheating on his part and, and it just, it kind of got, I don't know, just, it went from there, you know, and got worse and worse slowly. I think your mom had a little in her mind that if he became Catholic and they solved this religious difference, that that would solve their marital issues.

I don't know if it would solve it, but it, she definitely, she obviously as one spouse would want another spouse to become, you know, in this case, you know, Catholic wants their spouse to be Catholic mm-hmm , you know, so I think, I think there was, there was a great wants. and if not a little bit of a pushiness mm-hmm for that to happen or a, uh, expectation that that would happen mm-hmm and then it was, you know, and then I think my dad finally caved and then stuck through it for about a year and instead, forget this and then just, you know, that was about it.

So, okay. That was kind of, that's kind of the meat of the story as, as, as I remember it, I, I suppose. Yeah. And I know for a lot of us, the memory can always be a little bit like spotty and, and there's reasons for that. But I remember both of your stories cuz I was, you know, not intimately involved, but we were all friends.

Yeah. And PI I remember years in particular cuz we were definitely closer than you and I Maria. And um, I remember your dad becoming Catholic and that was like so good. And. I was, yeah. Just thinking like, wow, this is amazing. Your family seemed like they were, you were in a really good spot. You never know what's under the surface though from the outside, like, right.

But, but, um, and then all of a sudden, like, yeah, almost in the blink of an eye, it was like, oh, and now everything's falling apart. And the crazy thing was, there were a lot of families who we knew at the time who were going through some similar, maybe it wasn't like at the exact same time, but within years of each other, you know, it seemed like marriages were just falling apart.

Um, and then the kids obviously had to deal with the, the fallout, which we know intimately and especially looking at our siblings and seeing how they deal with it. It's it's tragic. So, yeah, definitely. That's interesting how each sibling kind of deals with it different. That's how I, I see it. Like my, my four sibling or me and my three siblings.

We have all dealt with it so differently. I see it with his siblings. Like not, not, not one reaction is. The same as the other and where you are in the family line above oldest or middle child, or second to youngest or youngest definitely seems to like play a little bit of a part in it. Yeah. If you could summarize that quickly, what would you say?

And I know it varies by person, like you said, but I'm just curious, like what have you seen the difference in both of your siblings handling the breakdown, your families? Oh gosh. just quickly just in like 30 seconds

novels on this, but yeah. Yeah. and you don't need to divulge, you know, big things about their siblings, but I'm just curious. Cause I think, yeah, I think it's, I think it's more. The higher in the, in the sibling hierarchy, you are, I think there's more responsibility put on you and the lower you are. There's more mooching off both parents.

Well, I wasn't gonna say that ness is the, the more the parents are gonna try and spoil you to try and get you to like them. But the higher you are in the hierarchy, the more you are going to, the more the parents are gonna want you to fulfill the other parent's role. Wow. I, I think that, or the missing parents' role, I should say, depending on how young the child is, I don't know.

What I've kind of noticed is in some ways, Some children have this idea of, okay, well what, what can mom give me? And, and what can dad give me? And who's gonna give me what, and what can I get? Who can I get the most from? I mean, that, that comes from just a normal functioning family.

functioning family should have the United front. The parents. Yes. Yes. But they still, that doesn't doesn't mean they're not gonna try. They might try. They might try. But in this situation they can do, dad will let me do this, but mom won't. So I'll do this at dad's or mom will give me this, but dad would never.

So I'll ask mom for that. Mm-hmm yeah. Or it's exponentially worse. And I'd agree with that. Like the higher you are and the hierarchy, the more sort of responsibility you have. I feel like for myself being the oldest, I, I wouldn't say I was leading my siblings in any way, but. They did look to me like, what are you gonna do about this?

And my mom definitely looked to me like, what should I do next? And we both were really lucky when we entered our relationship, that we had a really awesome priest recommend that we both see a counselor mm-hmm independently, independently. Yeah. And not together because we didn't, he, he saw both of our divorced family situations and he was like, you do not wanna bring these bad habits into your relationship and you do need to, and you do wanna deal with this before getting into a marriage.

And while you're discerning marriage as a vocation or, and religious life as a vocation mm-hmm and he recommended, we see the same counselor, but separately. So we did, he saw the counselor and I saw the counselor separately. And then when we did go. On to get engaged, we would go and he would have a half session with the counselor and I would have a half session with the counselor.

And then we would have, we want a whole session together as a couple on the, on the same day, we'd go together. He'd be by himself for half hour. I'd be by myself for half an hour and then we'd have an hour together and then we'd get lunch. It was like a weird date. Yeah. like a depressing day. No, but super helpful.

Wow. Wow. Wow. That's amazing. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So good. Yeah. Yeah. It was really good. And it definitely helped us recognize pitfalls and red flags and bad habits as they would pop up. And absolutely. Um, and it would help us work through that or even just like, how do we navigate being engaged with these divorced parents?

Okay. Now, how do we navigate being married with these divorced parents and how do we navigate. Having kids and throwing parties and they're do we invite both of them there and how do we navigate holidays and set boundaries and yeah. Yeah. It was something totally necessary. Especially also for us being married young, we were like, what are we doing?

yeah. Yes. Cause those things are hard to do in normal parent situations, setting boundaries and figuring out those things, but let alone, okay. Now we have our kids four. Now we have, and there's four grandparents, four independent to like rotate. Um, yeah, we did, we did one Easter. We did four Easters in, in the same day and I think I wanted to die.

Yeah. We were like, we're never, ever doing this again. Some things unfortunately are just trial and error, like yeah, yeah. Learning the hard. No, that's so good. Peter. I remember you advising that. We've put that in some of our content. Um, and I mentioned you saying that don't do it all in one day. good.

Practical credit. The worst thing possibly do, and I can attest to that. Cause it it's it's and that's, that's the big thing that was, I think that's a big thing and we still struggle a little bit with that is setting boundaries, you know, with, with everything that, you know, trying to say, okay, this is how it is.

And now our parents, you know, the parents are divorced, they've all got an alled. So technically they're free to see other people date and see other people and it's become more of, uh, attention because, because it's okay. My dad's, you know, dating a girl and oh, now kid's birthday who invite dad? And can he bring his, he bring his girlfriend, you know, so it's, it's.

It's a lot more tension in setting boundaries and it, and it, you know, kind of works all different ways and yeah, it never ends unfortu. No, it doesn't, it, it sucks, but it never ends, but it does get better. That's for sure. It's become a lot easier to make these decisions, but, but you had to work through all that.

And I think that's good for any parents listening right now. You know, we're not hitting on our parents, but I've seen the same thing in my life, too. Those normal situations that can be challenging. And over themselves, like you guys said become exponentially more difficult because there's all these people to please.

And then you have to deal with whose side, you know, you might be appear to be, um, on, and there's just so much messiness. Then you add yeah. Another partner into the situation like boyfriend, girlfriend, it just so such a difficult situation. So many parents listening who may be considering getting a divorce.

I think this conversation I hope is really insightful in saying not only how it will maybe affect your kids in the short term immediately following the separation divorce, but for years to come, this doesn't end. And that's the, your grand babies. Yeah. That's, that's something we've luckily been able is.

Sorry not to cut you off. Sorry, go. . No, you're good. But we've luckily narrow, narrowly avoided the conversation. Cause our oldest, our oldest is seven he's he's gonna turn eight. Yes, little baby, but we've narrowly avoided, you know, the, the conversation. Why does grandpa live at one house? Why does grandma live at the other house?

You know? Right. Actually, no, that's been a huge thing for us having, so we have four children, um, ages eight to one years. Three boys. And one girl, the girl is six years old and the boy is almost eight, a four year old boy and a one year old boy. But anyway, one thing that we have not really used the word divorce with them, but it's just been so crazy for us to see them and their perception of this because they know all of our parents in some sort of context, they're very close with their grandmas.

They know his dad really well. I'm estranged from my dad. So they know who he is. They've seen him, but they don't really have a relationship with him. But anyway, they, they know that these grandparents don't all live together. And so at one point maybe a year ago, half a year ago, we were sitting at dinner.

Oh yeah. And all of a sudden, our six year old daughter just goes, why does Papa referring to his dad? Why does he live in this house? And Grammy lives in that house? Mm. Yeah. And we just kinda looked at each other like, oh, okay. We knew this conversation. Why this came outta the blue, what did we say?

Completely out of the blue. Yeah. And without even skipping a beat, our oldest boy chimes in and he goes, oh, their kids are grown up now. So they, so one of them lives in this house and the other one lives in a different house. since their kids are grown up. Wow. And he just assumed like it's. Yeah. Right.

Okay. This is normal. When you're, when your kids grow up, you don't live together anymore. That was his like perception. His reality of the situation. Wow. Our six year old daughter, she's just like, oh, well then they aren't married. And he's like, no, they are married. They just live in different houses. Cuz their kids are grown.

And we had to like stop him and just be like, whoa, whoa, okay. Like, we want you to know that is not normal moms and dads don't live in separate houses once their kids are grown up. That is not a normal thing. That's not the ideal. Yeah. And, and that's not gonna happen with us. Mm-hmm , that would becoming the normal, but it is not ideal that like, that shouldn't be normal for portraying to them.

And that to try to make them feel secure, like this happened to your grandparents, but this is not gonna happen to your parents. Like, we don't want them to be scared that this is like their future. Yeah. Cuz that's, that's that's the hard part is how do you, how do you tell your kids? Okay, this happened.

Here's your, your grandparents. They got to love. Do you love and you admire. Yes. And. And they, they, they got married, they had children and then they, all of a sudden stopped loving each other or they stopped being married. Right. And they stopped being married. That's how, that's how the child was gonna look at it.

Right. Okay. They must not love each other anymore. They must was like, yeah. Yeah. And then they, so they separated and then they, then the kid's gonna sit there and be like, well, what happens if mom and dad separate and leave and or they stop, they just stop loving each other. Yeah. And then what happens, child mind is so simple, you know?

And then they go, well, what happens if mom stops loving me? Which is the same thing as a child's divorce is, I mean, a grandchild of divorce is the same, almost the same thought process. Yeah. Oh grandma and grandpa don't love each other. Why, what does that mean? That mom's gonna love me anymore. Mm. You know, which is a great issue that, that.

People children of divorce go through. Yeah. And so, so it's, it's to try and, and tell them, no, you know, first off we love grandma. We love grandpa, but their actions were not ideal and that's not the way it's supposed to. That's the way that God ordered it. Yes. It's not the way that God ordered it and that you're supposed to stay together and that we, and reassure them that that's not gonna happen to them.

That we, as their parents is not gonna happen to them. Yeah. And nor should it wow. In the symbols of terms. Yeah. Because yeah, this is, this is one thing, you know, I heard a long time ago is that, you know, when, when talking to a child with either divorce or, or even, you know, And where do babies come from or whatever mm-hmm is to literally try and give the child the least amount of information on, on to stats by their, their thirst, for the knowledge yes.

On these grand huge complex issues. We heard this on another podcast, actually domestic family parenting podcast. Yes. Put a plugin for them, cuz that is, that is a fabulous podcast. Yeah. Second to yours, obviously. no, Michael, they actually came on this podcast a while. Did they? I don't remember the episode number offhand, but uh, yeah, no, they're great.

Oh, I'm gonna look podcast number now. That's yeah. So, but yeah, they, you know, it was, it was to give them, give the child the simplest terms to satisfy their, satisfy their curiosity and, and, and that's pretty much what we ended up doing. And it was just trying to break it down. The simplest of terms and be like, look, this is, this is, this is what's right.

That is what's wrong. Mm-hmm and, and that's all you can really do because they can't understand complex situations. Right? Like that. No, I admire you guys for handling that. And Marie, you mentioned it, uh, child's thinking isn't black and white and it's so difficult to explain the nuances of a situation like that.

Mm-hmm in a way, I think kids think, see things more clearly than we do, and yeah. But what, what a difficult way, like what a difficult conversation to have that you weren't even prepared for, just to finish that this off for people listening, especially who might be, uh, wanting to get married one day or engaged or married, newly married and soon becoming parents, or maybe new parents wherever they're at in that, uh, whole timeline.

I'm just curious, how would you maybe handle that conversation a little bit differently? Um, was there anything that you maybe wish you would've said looking back at it now? Cuz I know hindsight's 2020 always. Um, I think you guys sounded really well by the way, but I just, like, that's a tough conversation to have.

I probably, I probably would've prepared for it a little better. Yeah. Which is would've we, we have discussed, oh my one day, we're gonna have to talk to about this, like dreading that day. Like that was kind of the extent of the conversation. Yeah. So maybe have an idea in mind and don't wing it like we did, but we did give them as little information as possible.

Just saying like, we want you to know this is not the way it normally will be. This is not how it will be with us. Uh, they were married, they are not married anymore. Then there was a lot of questions of like, how do you get unmarried? And we were like, well, in the simplest of terms, we kind of told them being Catholic and what we believe on as marriage, as a sacrament, just that they did not know.

Their catechism and their faith enough to the extent that their marriage was not valid and they are no longer married and they were not married completely in God's eyes. And that just not even another question, that was it. They're like, okay. Yeah. And back to talking about squirrels outside, like that was it like onto the next thing um, like didn't skip a beat and every, so often as something comes up, we just kind of give them as little nuggets of information, tiniest, tiniest amounts of information as possible.

I, I think it only came up maybe once after that. And then it just kinda, it just kind of set. They really don't. They don't really, we emphasize. They are not, not living in the same house because they're adult children are adults. Like their children have grown up. We, when you guys grow up, your mom and dad will still live in the same house.

Yeah. I think, I think, I think that's the biggest thing is that you can, if you can portray anything, make them feel safe, about's re reassurance their environment. Yeah. You know, because you wanna make sure that they know that this is, this is a family that is gonna stick together forever and it's worth being a part of yeah.

No matter what. Mm-hmm mm-hmm one thing I've noticed with Lucy is she gets so happy when she physically sees bridge. And I together just like when we're like getting each other a hug and, and you probably notice that with your kids too, it's so beautiful. Right. And I think that's ultimately what kids want is we just want our parents to be together.

Obviously we don't want all the fighting intention and all that stuff, but if we can snap our fingers and get what we want, we want our families to be whole, we'd want 'em to be together. Right. And I know, I know my siblings and I. Wanted that so much. So I think it's so beautiful that you reassured them that, yeah, mommy and daddy, we're not going anywhere.

We're not gonna be like grandma and grandpa. And, um, this is different and that, you know, I'm sure that's still hard for a kid to wrap their head around perhaps. But, um, but I think you, you guys, it sounds like you're doing all the right things. So this is really good advice. We obviously haven't had that conversation with Lucy yet.

Um but, uh, at some, at some point of will have I pray, you have many years before you have to have a conversation. Yeah, no, a hundred percent. It's it's not an easy one. And man, the, I know a lot of people just talking to someone this weekend and they were saying, I think their dad in particular has been married like six times.

It's like, boy, how, how do you explain that one? You know? So we won't go down that rabbit hole, but, um, I wanna shift gears a little bit to absolutely. So just the way in which you guys were affected, you've already mentioned a lot, but anything else that you would add in terms of how both of you were personally affected?

Um, and then the next stop is gonna be your relationship, but start personally, like, how were you affected by all of this? In addition to what you've already mentioned? I think I felt the sense that I had to be independent and I had to figure out a little more of how I was gonna offend for myself. And I don't know if you Joey have noticed this being with older kids, more like I was talking about younger kids trying to mooch off their parents.

Like, what can I get from this one? What can I get from that one? I felt, uh, this sense of, I don't want help from either of these people or as little help as possible that I can manage. Um, what can I do to get myself out of the situation? And I. Was looking at, okay, what do I want for a career? What do I want, how can I go to college?

And how can I not rely on them financially to do this? And so that's actually how I end up getting my cosmetology license, because I was like, I wanna go away to college and I wanna have a career and get away from these people and not be financially reliant on them. And I don't wanna be financially reliant on them for college either.

So how, what can I do to make more money to pay for college? And that's why I went to cosmetology school so that I could make more money to pay for college. Yeah. And it turns out that it paid off because in 2020, our kids had good haircuts as opposed to every other home home haircut. and you got good haircuts too.

I did too. I got good haircuts too. I'm jealous. So I think like some people have the fight or flight response and. My response was, I'm gonna fight for myself to not ever be in this situation again. And I remember just personally praying in my personal prayer life, a lot of prayer of God, I've dealt with this as a child and as an adolescent, and it's so miserable and it's so awful.

And I, I don't envy my parents and this terrible pain and suffering and hell that they're going through. And please spare me of this as an adult. I lived it as a child and I don't wanna deal with it as an adult. And so it was like a, it was a combination of fight and flight. It was a fight for me, myself.

I'm going to not ever be in this situation personally. Uh, and I'm gonna pray and do everything in my physical power. And I also wanna get away from this situation and not be stuck in this situation. Whereas like, do I, did I wanna help my mom? Did I wanna help my dad? Did I wanna help my siblings? Yes. Did I wanna try to maintain a relationship with them?

Yes, but I didn't wanna be dependent on that. And if things went south or sour, I wanted to have an out. It feels like for survival, doesn't Maria. And we've seen that as a trend too. It's like, we typically have this fierce independence as people who come from broken families and perhaps it veers more towards the older ones, but I've seen it in younger ones too, but we just, for sure, we don't wanna rely on anyone.

And that makes relationships really difficult, which we'll get to in the second here. But I, uh, I certainly still battle with this, to this day in my own marriage and, you know, definitely have grown a lot and made a lot of ground, but that's still kind of my default too, because I think so often what happens and we've said this before in this podcast, but, uh, when our families fall apart, we feel like we have nothing to fall back on.

And so we kind of take on this attitude like, well, no, one's got my back, so I better have my own back. I better just like figure life out. And if I don't, then that's not even an option. Like if I don't, there's nothing for me. And, uh, and so I totally totally get what you're coming, where you're coming from.

Right. Yeah, for sure. And I. . And that was me as a teenager and, you know, going on an older teenager, like getting towards the end of high school and getting towards college. So it's hard for me to think about, okay, what about my brother? Who was 11 mm-hmm you don't really have that option. You can't think of how am I gonna get myself out of the situation?

No, you're 11 years old. Like you're stuck in it. You haven't even made it through high school. You haven't. So, or his younger sister who is six years old. Mm-hmm like, now she's just gonna grow up with this as her normal. Yeah. So in some sense, I considered myself a little bit lucky, like, well, at least I'm older than them.

At least I don't have to go on, but you know, visitation, as long as they do the ability to leave situ the ability to leave the ability to drive well, the physical license to drive a car, whether or not I had a car available to me is a different story, but. Yeah, that pretty much. Yeah, it is a survival. I've kind of realizing how closely our stories are.

Um, at this very moment, but yours was like, I'm just not gonna be around. I, that was, I mean, that was mine. I, I, your coping mechanism, sort of my coping mechanism, you could almost say, I mean, it was cuz I think it was about, I was 17 and it was, there was a big dependence on me to step up and take care of my siblings.

And, and I kind of, I mean, I can't say I've always been the nicest to them, but as an older brother who is, um, but , but I mean, you know, I, you know, when it, when it really, when it really got Harry and the par, you know, with my parents, There was, there was an expectation from, from my parents to step up and more than just being an older brother to almost being a parent, to try and take care of them, like my siblings.

And then, and then I was, it was almost as if I was this, they kind of treated me as this as a friend. They almost tried to, or, or appear, appear where they would. Oh, Hey, you know, your dad's doing this or, oh, your mom's doing this. Or, you know, they really, they, there was a, they were trying to pit me against the other one, you know, which happens.

And I know that happened in your parents a lot too. Is wait, can I just interject to this space? Absolutely. Yes. That in our experience of parents trying to talk negatively about each other to us, That's happened to me. It's happened to him. It probably is something that's fairly normal. I would assume mm-hmm yeah.

The only way that changes is if you put up a boundary. Well, yeah, I was getting there. Oh, I was getting, let me building up to that. The boundary. Oh yeah. Um, you know, and, but my boundary was, I was just, I, I literally, I, I think I was 17 and I just exploded and I was like, I'm done, I'm gone. I don't last hear about this.

And, and you probably remember this, Joey, I pretty much lived up at your house and, and a couple of our other friends for almost six months. I left every weekend. I was gone. Mm-hmm fr I didn't, I did not live at my house on the weekends. I bounced houses. I hung out with friends at every waking moment I possibly can and many sleeping moments.

it's just like, you know, go, go stay somewhere else because the dysfunction was more than I wanted in my life. And so my, you know, COVID mechanism was leave and, and I told him, and, and I still have to, to this day kind of reinforce that boundary, like, look, I, I don't want to hear what you have to say about the other person.

I don't care. Yeah. It doesn't, it's not my, that is not my responsibility. That is not my, that's not my, you know, that's, that's not for me to hear that's even if it's true, it's actually like, even if what the one parent is saying about the other is true, it just leaves such a bad taste in your mouth. I don't wanna hear this.

I don't wanna be dragged down this road. Like don't, don't bring it up. Mm-hmm like, and. And now that you're gonna defend one of the parents when they did something wrong, but it almost gives you this. Like, I don't wanna agree with you even though you're right. Just because this is annoying and this is not fair to me as the child.

You no, it's not to vent it to. And that's what it is. It's, it's not fair to the children, you know, divorce is, is mostly not fair to the children hundred percent and, and it's, it, it, it puts such a strain and it just, it makes me wanna rebel. Like, I wanna just disagree with them just because I know. Right.

Yeah. And it it's makes sense. Yeah. You know, so the, you know, it's, it's, it's too much to pit them against each other because it's not about cuz that's, that's so often I, I I've seen with, I, I think, I think when I, when my family was going through it, I think I knew maybe five or six other families that were going through it at the time.

Yeah, and that's kind of, it was all very similar. And even still, now I talk to other people that, that are either going through a divorce or things like that. And, and so often it's, it's when children are involved, it's, who's the better parent. Mm-hmm , I'm the better parent. No, I'm the better parent and they go back and forth and, oh, I'm gonna give you more.

And I'm gonna, you know, when your mom does this or your dad does that or whatever, it is a little like background, uh, neither of our parents divorces were quote, unquote amicable. If there is such a thing, I know some people are like, oh my parents, they come to parties together and they hang out and they talk and they're like friends now.

Oh no, it's ours are not amicable at all. They can barely be in the same room. Yeah. Far away from each other in the same room. And it's, and it's been a long time, 10, 11, 12, It's been almost 15 years. 13, four. Yeah. It's been, oh my gosh. Wow. you know, so that makes so much sense. And PI, I remember you going through all that and all of us, our whole friend group was worried about, we were, uh, we were worried about you we'd talk about like the situation we were going through.

We saw how it was affecting you. And we were at a point, um, cause my parents was separate when I was 11 and they got back together and then later they divorced. And so, you know, I, I had that reference point, at least. So I knew like, yeah, this really stink this a horrible thing to go through. But yeah, we saw that and we, we were, you know, we're trying to figure out like how, how do we help?

How do we help? And it's such a difficult spot to be in for, for you. Uh, you know, and it makes sense that you kind of, your default was an escape, uh, because it's just too much to bear at times. And Maria, your interaction makes so much sense to me as well. And going back to what you said about. Parents divulging information that we don't need to know.

And some attempt to make us think less of the other parent, that's typically what I've seen happens. And the young people I've talked to, that's typically what goes about, like we, in a workshop, recent workshop we did at Ave Maria university, we were talking about this very topic, how, yeah. There were situations where some of these students, parents were just divulging really inappropriate details about the other parents.

Oh, for sure. And even the marriage that like, they never wanted to know which greatly altered their perspective, not only their one parent, but the other parent as well, and even the marriage altogether. So it can be so, so damaging to just divulge that information. So any parents listening, again, going back to that, like, it does more harm than good.

And if there are situations where you need. Say some sort of truth because maybe things are being twisted so much by the other parent, there has to be like a mature, calm way to do that without getting pulled into this battle, this competition, to be better, like you said, than the other parent. And so, you know, definitely a lot there to talk about you guys hit on so many great points.

I wanna go to your relationship, your marriage, cuz we don't have forever to talk in this episode. how, how, how did you see it particularly play out in the relationship between the two of you? You mentioned that you guys went to counseling, which is amazing way ahead of almost every couple that I've ever heard of.

and so, yeah, I'm just curious, like how did you see this affect your dating relationships and now your own. I mean there's, I mean, don't get me wrong. We're not perfect as much as I would love to believe that. Wait, really? I , I D maybe we shouldn't be doing this podcast episode. This is a condition of the episode that you're perfect.

And you never struggle. Darn. All right. We're gonna have to rethink this, right. Edit that out. Edit that out. Yeah,

no, but I mean, even now, I mean, even being 10, 15 years down the road, I still, you know, I, I still notice things that, that are results of my parents' divorce or, or, or dysfunctional things that even, not even the divorce, just dysfunctional things that my parents did, that I, you know, habits that you pick up or things that you do.

Yeah. Family habits, you know, family habits, you know? Yeah. And. so it's it's but how has it affected us? How has it affected us? I mean, it, it really just, you have to be conscious of it always mm-hmm and you know, a big thing that we have that we've, we've fought about a lot is that, you know, a lot of times, uh, you know, I'll be a jerk and for whatever reason, and then she'll be angry at me for being a jerk.

And so she'll be a jerk back at me. And then we'll both be a jerk it's jerk for tat. Yeah. It's a little tip for tat and start getting into this fighting. And the thing to always remember is, and I think I just said this the other day, I was like, wait, stop, rewind. We love each other. you know, mm-hmm and, and to always go back and remember that we love each other and we're not, you know, anything we do is.

Out of spite, which is what we've seen so much over our lives is that, is that our parents were spiteful at each other. Well, also think that one thing that we personally have had to work on is our communication. Yeah. Being, we both communicate a lot, but sometimes not in the most effective way or not in the way that the other person understands what we're trying to convey.

Or, and I think that we didn't see healthy communication happen. No, we weren't witness to that at all. So the counseling really stad off a lot of potential hazards, so to speak, like any potential bad habits. Because we had this counseling session when we were dating. So we saved off a ton of bad habits when we were dating, we saved off a lot of bad habits being engaged and even being married.

I think we went for the first, like four or five years of our marriage as well. Yeah. We went once a month. Yeah. For about four or five years. Yeah. Into our marriage. And so a total of like seven to eight years of counseling. And finally, she just looked at us and said, go home. yeah, that's beautiful. She's like, I've done all I can.

Yeah. Like when you're not fighting about like, who did, what chore, like then, you know, when you have something more concrete, like come back that's amazing. And not that we're perfect, like you said, but it really, it was finding a good counselor doing the, the footwork in your relationship before even marriage.

And that's huge. Yeah. And discerning, you know, this person, this partner, and if they're right for you and you know, are they gonna really be there for you through sick and thin and yeah. Cause, cause once you get married, you're, you're kind of, I mean, you're really, you're stuck with, you're not kind of stuck.

You are stuck. Well, you're stuck with, well, yeah. I, I, sorry man. Everyone who's not married just really wants to get married right now. And I'm just kidding. well, I mean it is though, but you know, so if, if, but you wanna be good, stuck, like stuck, right? Like where you're stuck. Exactly. This is where I'm going, you know?

So it's, it's, you know, so you wanna figure out you wanna iron out the big wrinkles before, you know, before you can, you know, before you settle down and you get married because cuz if, if you find out. Three years into your marriage. Oh my gosh. There's this huge issue that, oh, he's just this way. And he is never gonna change.

Mm-hmm you wanna find that out while he is dating while you're dating, so you can just walk away with a lot less baggage. Yeah. You know, and, and, and counseling is, I mean, I think every single person in this world should go to counseling with a single person, every single person, we're all nuts. but I, you know, , but at least, you know, at least, you know, going as a couple with an open mind and to find a counselor that pushes you.

Because there's, I I've been to a, a few different ones, you know, that was part of the divorce and all that fun stuff was, oh, go to this counselor, go to that counselor. And there's counselors out there. That'll just tell you what you want to hear or yeah. You know, and then we walk away and you're like, I'm, I'm I feel great.

You know, because I, I, he told me everything and I'm in right. And blah, blah, blah. You know, so to find a counselor that, that pushes you to think, well, what, what could you do? That's better. Even, even, you know, maybe you're no one, no one is a hundred percent in the right. You know, unless you're Jesus Christ.

I mean, that's, that's pretty much it, everybody has, you know, or, or some great Saint or something. But I most average people, especially today, mm-hmm are, have some sort of selfish, ulterior motive, I think. And. and me included. And I think that, I think that, you know, unless you're viewing that and trying to understand, well, okay, what am I trying to get out of this and why, and how can I do this to be more selfless, you know, ESP, when it comes to relationships, you know, anything really, but with relationships to, to, to look at it as, as how can I be more of a selfless person and give myself to my spouse or to my, you know, to my boyfriend or to my significant other, that that would allow me to grow in love for them and in return and holiness and holiness and in return that they, they will see that and, and love me more.

I mean, you know, to find, to find some, a counselor, that'll push you to do something like that is really, I. You know, or, or even a, a spiritual director or, or a, uh, accountability account, not so much a mentor, a mentor. Thank you. Yeah. A mentor, you know, someone to push you further because yeah. You know, let's face it.

We can only be pushed further than we think we are. Yeah. Yeah. And we can always grow more. There, there is no, there is no cap on how much we can grow as a human. Yeah, no, I'm a big believer in that. I, we wouldn't be doing what we're doing here right now, if, if it wasn't and yeah, I, you know, you guys brought up so many good points and a lot of great advice and what you just said.

Yeah. And I, I know just bridge and I, you know, conflict learning to handle conflict, like you said, uh, when our marriage has been especially difficult because, uh, you know, I didn't see that growing up handled well. And, uh, in fact, I saw it handled very horribly. And so that was the example and I was clueless on how to do it the right way, picked up some things along the way that helped, but in such an emotional relationship, which a marriage is like your emotions run high, um, and hot.

Um, it can be really difficult to have that self mastery in the midst of those difficult situations to say the right thing and not hurt the other person, which I mess up. And so. So we've had to learn and, and counseling marriage counseling has been really helpful for us. And, uh, you know, I, one of a few of the tendencies that I've seen in myself, which I'm curious if you guys can relate is, um, just this almost need to defend myself and just almost this need to kind of going back to what we were saying before about.

Feeling so independent or being fiercely independent, feeling the need to just take care of ourselves. Like no one will take care of us. No one will be there for us. Like we just have to do it ourselves. It can very much so feel like survival in the midst of even a, a marriage fight. Yeah. And a lot of times it's just stupid stuff, silly stuff.

I mean, just the other night, it's like we were fighting about something so dumb. It's like, come on and, and thankfully we've gotten to that point. One of the things, one of the concrete girls that we've seen in our marriage is that we get to a point where like, it takes us a shorter and shorter period of time now to recognize that and apologize and reconcile.

I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Have you guys seen that in your marriage? For sure. Yeah. We're like, wait a minute. Like he said, we love each other, right? This is dumb. When we first got married. Fought like cat and dogs. yeah, yeah. No one prepares you for that. I remember we, I remember you made a comment about it and you're like, why are we, we were in a big fight and you were like, why are we always fighting?

And I mean, it was we, and we're, you know, we are. Both. Very, what do you, how do you stubborn? Stubborn? Sure. Come up with a way to say it nicer, but sure. We're stubborn abstinence we're, you know, we're loud and opinionated. Yeah. And so for us, a simple fight, it, you know, could be, you know, a little explosive , but where, you know, quieter people might just, you know, whatever.

Okay. Sure. I think another thing too is , um, we both saw a really bad habit of thinking the one spouse thinking the worst of the other, like mm-hmm , you know, he might have done, you know, he might have left his. Come home with his dirty work boots and kicked them off on the floor and got dirt everywhere.

And I'm like, I just mopped this floor, you know, mm-hmm and obviously this is just a simple example of like, okay, he wasn't doing this to personally offend my perfectly mopped floors but I took my boots off in the garage by the way today. Yeah, good, man. Good man. but me just being like, you have no consideration for me and him being like, this is just me coming home from work and taking off my boots woman, you know um, and that was one of the things I feel like in our marriage, when we went to counseling, when we were married, that our counselor was like, why are you always making the worst to each other?

Yeah, like that was one thing that was routinely brought up until this bad habit was. Even still brutally knocked out of us. Like it's, it's still something that happens, shows up every so often, you know? Right. But thinking the worst of the other person, and when you hear your parents saying the worst of the other parent, it's just something that becomes so habitually ingrained.

And I think it's something also that marriages struggle with anyway. But yeah, when you're, when you've seen it, um, and you've seen, you know, I remember my parents definitely like thinking the worst of each other, um, in a lot of senses or, you know, taking something that someone did not do offensively as this big.

I remember there's been a few times too, where we've noticed in our, or I've come to realize that certain things that my parents did that I thought were normal are not normal. For instance, as a small example, my dad. It was very particular about how my mom spent money. And I remember, you know, going through the McDonald's drive through and her saying, I'm gonna pay with cash.

Don't tell dad McDonald's cause he'll get really mad at me. And one time we were trying to be more frugal, not eat out. And I was really tempted cuz I was out, it was lunchtime and I'm like, I'm just gonna take the kids through the drive through. But here. And I we've made this packed. We're gonna be trying more frugal.

We're not trying not to eat out right now, but I could just pay with cash and I could not tell him. And all of a sudden realizing, like that's such a terrible thing. And then I'm tell my kids, don't tell dad this secret from dad called him crying and being like, I can't believe this. Like, this was like my normal.

And like, I just can't imagine doing this to you. That's just so wrong. It sounds like such a small little dumb thing, but it's just like such a wrong thing to portray to our children and such a wrong thing to do to each other in the smallest of things. Like there's so many bigger things, but like that was like our normal, like hurry up and throw the trash out.

So bury the trash under some other trash. So dad doesn't see the McDonald's wrappers, you know, like, because, so it's been eyeopening too, in a sense of like, I didn't realize how weird and wrong that was. I think people, uh, maybe who don't come from broken families or haven't listened to stories like this, they might think like, what's the big deal, like, come on.

What's the big deal. Mm-hmm and, and, you know, obviously the research is really clear. There's so many stories about this, but the reason that's a big deal is because. And the reason we struggle more in relationships. And again, that's what the research showed. The, the biggest area of our life. That's impacted by the breakdown of our parents' marriage.

And our family is our romantic relationships, particularly our marriages. And the reason is that simple. We learn how to love. We learn how to build relationships and even a marriage within our families. And if we saw bad example of that, it's like going to a bad university to learn, to be an engineer. And then right.

You know, like an aerospace engineer and then being told, okay, build a rocket. It's like build a rocket. We're gonna, we're gonna put some people on this rocket. It's gonna go to space. It's like good luck. Like, so for engineers, I don't wanna be on his rocket. I don't wanna be on his rocket. No, thanks.

exactly. So it's like, we, we literally had this very poor education. Not, not bashing our parents, but it just to be objective and honest, it's like, this is a very poor way to learn how to love, how to build relationships. And we're carrying that with us. And what, you know, researchers have found too, is that once you've formed a habit, that's always in your.

Like that neural pathways alwa it can't be erased. It can't be erased. It could be replaced, but it can't be erased. And that's why PI what you were saying before. It's like this stuff can pop up when it's triggered in certain situations would make yeah. Makes sense. So, um, no, it, that, that's why it's a big deal.

It's like, literally we were school, we got a degree. We were, you know, taught how to build love or, or maybe the lack of in our families. And that, that's why it can be so difficult, even in small situations where we're just have these knee jerk reactions to do something that's ultimately gonna damage the marriage in the family.

Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know. I just wanna say to all the listeners that your parents' divorce while it's always gonna be there, it doesn't get erased. There, there is hope. There was hope in my prayer that, okay, this is not how I'm gonna spend my adult life. There was a lot of don't feel hopeless in the sense of this.

Doesn't have to define you and the rest of your life, and you can still find happiness and you can still go on to have a good marriage like our marriage. Isn't perfect, but I'd say we have a good marriage and we're both very happy. I'm very happy. I'm happy too. and we enjoy our family so much and we feel like it's, in some ways, it, not that divorce is ever a blessing, but we've received the grace of really trying to be so intentional about our marriage and putting a lot of work into it.

I mean, the counseling itself was a lot of work and. Emphasizing always to each other, that divorce is never an option. It's not, it's not the D word. We don't, we don't talk about it. We don't say it. We don't threaten it. It's never, you know, brought up in a fight and we don't even joke about it. Really. We don't joke about it.

It's it's, it's, it's like a cuss word in this house pretty much. Yeah. So good. I love that. No, Maria, thank you for balancing that with hope. I think, you know, we need to do both. We need to see the truth and just acknowledge that, okay. This was really difficult thing to go through, but at this, in the same breath, say what exactly what you said that there's so much hope you can change.

You can't heal. You can grow. That is a possibility mm-hmm a lot of people don't believe that actually, a lot of people have this fixed mindset where they think, well, I'm just am the way I am. I kind of destined to down on the road. That's, that's a, it's a sense of perspective. And to think that, you know, it's a difference of.

Are you going to take the route of the victim mentality? You know, I mean, I, I saw, uh, this, this funny post on Facebook years ago, and it was just a picture of a blank sheet of paper. And it said here's a list of all the things that you're entitled to , you know, and I'm like, that is fricking brilliant because it is, I mean, really think about it.

Yeah. I mean, hundreds of years ago, you know, thousands of years ago, what, what did people do? They, in order to do anything, they had to blood, sweat, and tears to, to live and survive just to survive for God's sakes, you know? And, and now we're, we're living our cushy lives, you know, for a majority of the world.

And we're like, oh my mommy and daddy fight, and this is tough. And I mean, not to, not to lessen, anybody's it, doesn't invalidate people's pain. Yeah. Not to invalidate people's pain because there's pain, but, but it's, but you can rise up from this pain. It's not the worst thing in the world. You know, you're not dying from cancer.

You can get up every day and you can go to work and you can make your life better and, and you can choose not to follow those habits. Yeah. You know, you can choose to set boundaries. Um, yeah. And, and to, to grow and, and become stronger and rise above the issues at hand, some people will struggle with the feeling of worthlessness.

We've definitely seen that in some of our siblings, this feeling of like worthlessness and it's just such a lie. It's just from the, Demonn trying to get his clause into you, whichever way he can. Mm-hmm that you're worthless because. Your parents split up and you weren't worth it to them to, to fix this.

Like you being their child isn't worth it. It is, it is a lie. And then because every person is worth something in the eyes of God and all equally, and yeah, everyone's equally worth and it's, you know, to, to rise above that worthlessness and, and to escape it because if, if you sit there and just continue to wallow it, don't wallow in it.

Yeah. Don't wallow in it. If you continue to wallow it, all it will do is just eat it. You eat at you. And it's just, it's a terrible spiral of, of depression that will only get worse and worse and worse. And, uh, cuz there was, there was a great time. It was quite a, there was a few years that, that I was very severely depressed.

And I don't even know if you know that Joey and, and it was, it was tough. There was a lot of dark thoughts and a lot of big issues that, that I had and I struggled with, and I felt that, you know, I was all alone and well, cuz in some ways you were, I mean, in some ways I was, and like you said earlier, my, we had a, a very good priest friend who was my mentor and spiritual director who helped me see out that.

And then you and you Joey and, and our, our friends helped me a lot too to see beyond that, that there was more than just my pain and suffering, that there was a whole world out there that I could, I can rise above my own issues and to become something greater and better. And, and, and to. In a horrible sense, also learning from our parents' mistakes.

Yeah. Yeah. We're not gonna make this mistake, right. Or that mistake, not, not, not wasting that in so many ways. And man, you guys on some, so many good things. Um, and I think a lot of people listening right now feel that worthlessness and they feel, they struggle with the victim mentality. I know I've been there and uh, there's still tendencies.

They have to fight against. And I think that's one of the biggest things that's just destroying our world right now is that victim mentality. And the reason why people like Jordan Peterson are so popular, cuz they basically speak directly against that, which is amazing. So much good stuff there. I don't wanna cut this short, but I don't wanna keep you guys forever.

I, uh, I did wanna ask you though an important question. Feel free to finish anything you wanted to say there, but then also if your parents were listening right now, what, what would you want them to. Oh, geez. Is this a softball question? oh yeah, it's a softball question. Sure. um, that I wish things were different and I don't think there's anything that can really change that at this point, but I, I want what's best for both of my parents and I hope that we all end up in heaven together someday as one.

Happy non dysfunctional family. Yeah. Trying to say this in the nicest way possible, but quote, my favorite shirt that my wife found for me. Well, no. Oh no, I, you get over it. You know, he's got a t-shirt that says get over it literally it's, you know, I mean, It's like, I mean, like you said, it's, it's over, it's done.

It sucks. Well, it's, it's, it's never this way. Well, the, the initial worst part is over. It happened, it happened, it happened it's there. The fallout just continues, unfortunately, you know, and to just accept the fact, you know, that it sucks. Mm-hmm well, and, and don't complain to us about it specifically. You put yourself there.

Yes. You know, but, but it sucks. And, and to accept it because it, it, it has to happen there. There's no change in it. There's nothing we can do. It's it's the, you know, to have the serenity to accept the fact that you can't change this now, because it's happened mm-hmm and, and to move on and have a courage to change the things you can.

And the wisdom to know the difference. Yeah. So what, if you, what you would tell your parents, if they were listening, is the serenity prayer. I would tell them the serenity pray this, which was a huge, which was a huge help. Uh, for me, um, was the serenity prayer, which, I mean, that was, is there a lot of things that you can't change?

That was I had, I had, I think I was 20 and I had a conversation with a, just a total stranger out in Nebraska at a seminary with this, with this guy at, I think it was one o'clock in the morning and we sat there and I literally just told this guy, random stranger dude, my entire life story. and, uh, to back this up, uh, earlier in the day I ate a couple of really bad tacos.

Um, so then the next morning after I had this whole conversation with this guy, I woke up with food poisoning. ouch. So then he just, he just took this plaque that I still have in my room today and slid it under my door in, in the dorm room. And it was the serenity prayer. And he was like, here you go. And I, that's a really great prayer for people who are feeling hopeless, whether they are divorced or a child of divorce or thinking about it.

It, that got me that really changed my perspective on, I mean, just life in general, but specifically with, with my parents' divorce and everything, you know, cuz there's only so much I can do and everything else is up to God. And that's it. That's freeing that that's really freeing. Do either of you hate your parents hate?

Yeah. No, my, my dad and I are estranged. I don't hate him, but he's treated me ill in a lot of ways. And so yeah, we like with the help of counseling have put up that boundary that it is not in my best interest emotionally or mentally or physically to really have a relationship with him at this point.

Yeah. Makes sense. So, no, I don't hate my dad, but I do hate a lot of the ways he's treated me. Yeah. And that's okay. Yeah. Hate the sin. Love the center. Exactly. Yeah. And that's the thing I think that can be so toxic in families. Like we come from where we might not even feel like we're allowed to talk about in honesty, what has happened.

So I'm so glad we were able to do this. Really appreciate you spending time with us. Um, your wise, it's been just on a personal note, amazing watching you two grow. I know we haven't lived in the same place and haven't always, I haven't always been great with staying in touch with my friends, but I have to say you two are inspiring.

It's beautiful to see. I know probably could have a whole episode about this, but both of you coming from broken families, ads, a particularly challenging, um, can make things particularly challenging. And so it's amazing to watch the two of you just build your family, build your marriage and work through the inevitable issues that come up.

So perhaps you guys it's, uh, it really is inspiring. And not just saying that to give you big hat. It's it's beautiful. Um, so yeah, so with that, I wanna give you guys a last word. Like what words of encouragement, what advice would you give to someone who feels really broken? Feels stuck, maybe feels worthless because of everything they've been through, uh, with their dysfunctional family, with the broken family, with their parents' divorce or separation or whatever is the reality in, in their family.

Like what, what encouragement would you give them? What hope? What advice would you say to them? Hmm. You are the master of your fate. Yeah. I mean that's to, to remember that it's always, it's not the end of the world. It probably feels like it in the moment, but you know, it, it will get better, whether you're five or 15 or 50.

Yeah. And, and to pray. And, and remember, I mean, really to remember that. And I, and I would tell everybody to really pray the serenity prayer, to understand what you have, the ability to change and everything else is all in God's hands, all in God's hands and a any, any of the, the negative thoughts. They're not from God.

No, they're, they're not. And he wants all the best for you. He knows that my favorite Bible verse that gave me hope was Jeremiah 29 11 for, I know the plans I have for you says the Lord plans of welfare and not a wo to give you a future full of hope. And like I said, whether you're older or younger and you feel hopeless, Your future is supposed to be full of hope.

That's what, that's what God has promised. And the SI the sins of your parents are not yours. So don't drag them along with you.

By the way, the episode that I couldn't remember with Mike and Alicia, Hern from the messy family podcast is episode 44. Again, that's episode 44 of our podcast. Hey, if Stewart has helped you, we'd love to hear how we've helped you. And some of the benefits of sharing your story with us, how we've helped you.

It gives us insight into what's most valuable for you guys. It helps us set strategy for the future so we can keep serving you. And then it shows other people the effectiveness of our work, which convinces them to use our content and the tools that we produce. And so we wanna share your testimonial. You can just go to restored.

Dot com slash testimony. Again, ReSTOR ministry.com/testimony can answer the quick questions about how ReSTOR has helped you. It can be totally anonymous. It's your choice. If you want your name on it or not, and then share how restored has helped you in that form. So you can do that again at ReSTOR ministry.com/testimony.

The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 67. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them, always remember you are not alone, rare here to help you feel whole again, and become the person that you were born to be.

#066: A Resource for Families in Crisis | Anne DeSantis

When you’re 7 years old and your parents divorce out of the blue, it causes confusion and lots of questions. Unfortunately, the struggles for my guest didn’t stop there. 

In this episode, we discuss:

• How her parents divorce has impacted her, even years later

• What to do when your divorced parents become ill and near the end of their lives, especially if you have a tense relationship with them

• An organization that exists to help families in crisis

Get help from the St. Raymond Nonnatus Foundation

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Anne DeSantis

  • Philly Nonnatus - YouTube

  • Love and Care for the Marginalized

  • Anne DeSantis Website

  • St. Raymond Nonnatus Foundation

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

My guest today was only seven years old when her parents divorced and it came out of the blue for her. And it cause her a lot of confusion. It caused her to ask a ton of questions about why things were changing. And so in this episode, we discussed how her parents divorce has impacted her even many years later, we talk about what to do when your parents become ill and near the end of their lives.

Especially if you have a tense relationship with. And then you'll also hear about an organization that exists to help families in crisis. Good stuff. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host joy pond re thank you so much for joining us. This is episode 66. My guest today is Anne DeSantis, Anne, as a. Mother of two adult daughters, Catholic authors speaker model, and actress from the greater Philadelphia area.

Ginger masters in theology in 2021 from St. Joseph's college in Maine. Although she had a career before motherhood spending quality family time will always be one of the best decisions she ever made. She says she'd been a stay at home homeschooling mom to her two daughters from pre-K to grade 12 as she was also a teacher by.

She now hosts a weekly TV show called journeys and faith on Fiat ministry network and a podcast on patchwork, heart radio with bill Schneider, interviewing people, doing good things and spreading. From 2018 to 2020, she hosted the weekly TV show called the positive side and interviewed amazing people.

Now, primarily she is the director of the St. Raymond nanas foundation for freedom, family and faith. She loves this work and feels honored to do it in this episode. You'll hear the fact that Anna is a Catholic Christian. And so we discussed God and faith in this interview. If that's not your belief, we're really glad that you're here.

My challenge to you is this, listen with an open mind. Even if you take out the God parts, you're still gonna benefit from this. I. So here's my conversation with Anne DeSantis,

Anne, welcome to the show. It's been a long time coming. Thanks for your patience, but glad we can finally do this. Yes, I'm so glad to be here with you, Joey. Thank you. You're doing wonderful work on your podcast and your ministry. Thank you. No right back at you. I know you're very active in this area, helping people who come from broken families.

And I know we'll get into that, uh, in a bit, but first I wanna start with your story. So how old were you when your parents separated and divorce? Admittedly, I am not a millennial I am older. Uh, so my parents. In 1972, probably many, many years before your, some of your listeners were born. And at that time I was seven years old.

So at this time I'm 57 years old. It was quite a long time ago. And yeah, so seven years old was when they divorced though. That was a while ago. I mean, there there's so many similarities, as I know, you know, from working with people who come from broken families. Um, so regardless of if it was. Long ago or not.

I, I know you, you have a deep understanding of this problem and yeah. I'm curious what happened in your family? Well, what happened in my family was when my parents married now, that was in the kind of mid to early 1960s. They were both Catholic and they were both, you know, churchgoers people who went to through Catholic school.

People who understood the faith, I believe, but when they got married, There was a lot of communication issues from the very, very beginning. And they, they had four children almost immediately. Um, in fact, my mom and dad, their four kids, basically, there was only a year or two years or so at the most between each of their kids.

And so from my understanding and from my memory is. They, and, and as I said, I was only seven, so my, I don't have clear, clear memories of everything when I was that young. But, uh, they did always have some kind of, uh, relationship issues in terms of not getting along, arguing things like that. So when I was about, yeah, like I said, I was seven years old.

I wasn't given any kind of heads up what was going to be happening, but one. I woke up and my mom said movers were there. People were moving the furniture. And so I was told, you know, we're leaving. And so my mom left my father and we stayed away for a given amount of time, you know, in a hotel, because basically what happened was, is that my dad really did not want this divorce.

And he arrived home from. That day from work and the house was pretty much cleared out. There were some things that were left there, but my mom put those things in storage, and then she didn't tell him where she was, cuz she really wanted to get away from him because of the, the, the nature of their relationship and how not good.

It was mm-hmm . And so she had made that decision that I need to leave him. And so at, at that point, then we were established in an apartment. We lived there for a little while and then eventually got a house. Within, I would say within about three or four years, my mom had gotten another relationship. She did get an Anul egg, did get an annulment and my mom did get remarried and eventually my dad got, got remarried too.

Okay. And so that's kind of like the facts, I guess of it. I mean, of course there's also the feelings involved too. Right. But I wanted to give you sort of that factual information about the divorce. So they were an old, got remarried. My mom and my stepdad now have been married for, you know, going on, I think 47 or 48 years.

Uh, they actually just had their anniversary. Uh, my father is deceased and he was remarried. And unfortunately when my FA my father remarried twice after that, both of his wives died. So my dad was left single at the end of his life. He passed away in 2018. Say, it's been a journey. It's been a journey for me.

And, and that's, you know, the, the, I guess the, like I said, the factual parts of, of what happened back then. One thing I will say is that these days there's something like restored ministries, like the St. Reman or not foundation, where I work as the director mm-hmm . But back then, you know, there were not support systems for people like you and I, who were the adult children of divorce, or even, even for the people who are separated or divorced there wasn't Catholic.

There wasn't as many Catholic resources for them to find the healing and to find. Coming back after going through a trauma, cuz that's pretty much what it is, is going through trauma. Absolutely. And there's such a gap there. I think even still I know where both our organizations are working hard, but there's just so many people to serve.

And a lot of times this problem is just assumed to be normal. And so people might not even be looking for help, even though they do need it, which we can get into. So there's so much work to be done. But yeah, that, that was a similar situation with me. That's the reason why ReSTOR exists at all is because we, um, you know, in my own life, I look for help.

I look for some resource to help me navigate the pain and the problems that I was experiencing to, to find healing. Like I wanted really practical advice on how to heal and when I looked around, I just didn't find that. And so I'm glad, you know, resources like ours. Like your foundation and, and our ministry is, um, is, are sprouting up, but it is man, that must have felt so alone.

So I wanna go, there's so much to what you said, but I want to go into the feeling part of it as well, if that's okay. And, um, yeah. What was going through your mind? What was going through your heart as that seven year old, going through all that. Well, I will say the first feeling that I can remember and recall, of course, like I said, now we're talking 50 years ago, so sure.

Um, is probably just the question marks like, Hey, where are we going? What's happening? You know? Where's, you know, what's gonna happen with our family, that kind of thing. And so I was the oldest too, out the oldest out of four now of course my mom, when I said she remarried my, I have another sister too, from my mom's, uh, second marriage, uh, my youngest sister.

So, um, my, my, my father. I did not have any more children with either of the two wives that he had, as I mentioned, um, he had stepchildren, but I guess the first, like I said, the first thing was the question marks, you know, what do I do? What do I think, what do I say? And I think the biggest thing that I dealt with was realizing that I needed to just learn how to take care of myself in many ways, in terms of what was going on in my own life at a young age, uh, not to say that my parents.

Didn't care about me and do their best, cuz they, they did, especially my mom. I mean, I lived with my mom, my mom raised me, my mom and my stepfather really were the ones that. Were my quote unquote family, because my dad wasn't, he did have a part of my life, but I would say that due to the circumstances, he, wasn't a huge part of my everyday life.

When I was growing up from the ages of seven all the way through, till the end of high school and even through college, the good news is he did have a relationship with me. I mean, he did come to visit and, and take us and take us to see him. But I guess what I'm saying is you hear some stories where the father is very active.

You know, very much wants to be a part of the, the li the life of their kids after a divorce. But with my dad, I would say, not so much, he, he did care. He did pay support, paid the child support. But he wasn't super active in, in my life or even in any of my siblings lives, but that did come full circle. I'm gonna tell, tell you more about that too, because when you're the adult child of divorce, it isn't just from when you're younger, it goes through the entire lifespan and me being one of those older people.

Right. And so, uh, what I was feeling, what I was thinking was pretty much, you know, wanting to get some attention. I think that every child. Once the attention of their parents, but when they're going through some kind of a trauma, the parents are really the spotlight aren't they? They're the, they're the spotlight of what's going on at that time.

And I, I have to say, I think my mom and my step dad, they did a great job doing their best to, you know, to, to really be a big part of, of who I was and everybody in our family. So I commend them for that. For, for everything and for the rest of my family too. But I think, you know, divorce and separation, no matter which way you look at it, whether it's a quote, easy divorce, you know, you hear those stories where people say, well, we're just not getting along.

We're gonna get divorced. And I. They're ending the relationship and they do try to make it as easy quote, unquote, as easy as they can for the kids. Right. But there's still gonna be some kind of challenge, trauma, adversity, whatever, just because the family unit is being separated. Right. So, and I learned a lot about that as I got older, the one thing you were talking about my feelings was that when I got to be a teenager, there was nothing more in my life that I wanted then to get married.

And to be with a person forever. That was my thing. I wanted to find the right person and spend the rest of my life. I, I had that deep desire to do that. I would say from a teenager on and lucky for me, you know, I found the person that I would spend the rest of my life with when I was 19. And I'm still with him now, right?

I mean, we, we dated for a while and then we got married when I was 24 and we're still together. We're celebrating our coming up this year in August. We'll be celebrating, uh, 33 years together. My husband is Catholic. We are both divided to our faith. Thank God. But that was what I wanted. I wanted that. And, and I would say on the feeling end of things, that was my desire was to, to find the person that I wanted to feel very secure with.

And be with in a relationship. And thankfully I did now that came full circle because when my husband and I, uh, were married and were dating, we were Catholic, but I, I can't say Joey, where wed Catholics, did we know what you and I know about the church and about the catechesis part of it and about well theology, the body, I don't even think was really known at that time when we were dating, was we married in 1989?

So I, I think that. After it was written, but maybe before Christopher West came out, Made it a lot more of a popular thing and, and well known in the Catholic church, but we were not super well. Catechized is what I'm trying to say. The way that it came full circle was that I had a life threatening condition in 1999, where I was diagnosed with a disease after my second pregnancy, uh, called peripartum cardiomyopathy.

Heart failure after a pregnancy and talking about the science of all of that is probably for a different program. But in a nutshell, I got the sacrament of the sick and I was healed from it. I mean, I was healed now. It still took me time to get back to normal. After that, it still took me time to. I, I, it took me about a year or so till I was really, really back to normal after heart failure, but it's been 23 years and I'm still doing very well physically, uh, and spiritually.

And that's what happened during that time was that my faith became very, very important to me after getting the sacrament of the sick. and realizing that God was the one that healed me and saved me from dying at a young age, in my thirties, cuz that's how old I was when I got the disease. And then my husband and I, we met some people in our area, uh, who were involved in the charismatic renewal.

I don't know if you've ever heard of the alpha course. Have you ever heard of that before? Yeah. Yeah. I've heard of that. I don't, I don't know if our listeners have though feel free to explain it to me. Yeah. So in 2000, in the year, 2000 and 2001, I took it in 2000. My husband took it in 2001. We did the alpha course, which is, um, it isn't a Catholic course.

Believe it or not, it's a ecumenical, but there is something called alpha for Catholics. The founder of it is Nikki Gumble. He's an, an Episcopal minister in, in great Britain. He is amazing. And the whole course is really about getting to know Jesus, who he is, who he is to you and who is the holy spirit.

Hmm. And my husband and I went on the, what they refer to as the holy spirit weekend. And it was a very much a quote Catholic charismatic retreat where we were prayed over and met a bunch of very Onfi Catholics. And, uh, and from then, I mean, it was like an opening, an opening of the door to us getting to.

Our faith and loving our faith and, uh, and really it has made a big effect. Now, am I still very charismatic? Am I still into that whole idea of praying to the holy spirit? I mean, I still do pray that way, but I sort of have evolved into more of a contemp prayer myself in my faith. I wanted to get more educated too.

And in 2000. 12. I got my certificate in pastoral ministry through my archdiocese, uh, the archdiocese of Philadelphia. And I just got my master's in theology last year, 2001, excuse me, 2021 from St. Joseph's college of Maine. So congratulations. It's beautiful to thank you. It's beautiful to have not only the.

Spiritual side of our Catholicism, but the educational side, right. Getting to know the faith and really understand it and the pastoral side. And so as the story developed, now, I'm gonna continue this story a little aside from the divorce part of it. Right. But in 2013, I was searching for a spiritual director.

I had two spiritual directors die in a year. Both of them had cancer. And I looked all over the place to find a new spiritual director. And I found a religious order, the Arian religious order. And I was referred to by a priest who became my spiritual director and really helped guide me through another difficult time that came in my life.

And so long story short, I became what we call Merced third order. And that is a prayerful lay member of a religious order. So that evolved into me being invited to become the director of this foundation that I'm now working for. As you were alluding to the St. Raymond ANATAS foundation for freedom, family and faith, to end the story about, I said I wanted to go back to my dad and my mom, and just tell you what happened later on was that.

When my father got old and sick and he came to me before he needed a nursing home. And he said, I need you to help me because I, I don't have anybody to mind. My matter, my, my matters if I die, you know, I need somebody to be that power of attorney in the executor too, as well. And so he was in a nursing home for like seven or eight years and my husband and I.

Oversaw, both of us, my husband was actually the executor. Uh, he did that for me as kind of as a favor, uh, because he knows a lot about those things and matters. But what I'm trying to say is for those people, listening is. No matter where you are with your parents' divorce separation is that it comes full circle at the end of their lives.

And at the end, even when you get older ways that you can reach out and make a difference for them. And so I was able to be there for him at the end of that life and be able to plan the funeral, be there and feel like, you know, the mission kind of came full circle into who I could be for my. And even, you know, my mom and my stepdad also are people that I visit every week and spend time with and able to give back to them and help them as they are both not doing very well physically at this time.

And their, my mom just turned 80. So it just comes full circle. You know, when you get older, how you can minister it to them, no matter where they. Despite as you refer to that brokenness that happens in family. Wow. No, that's so good that that's no, it's good. There's so much to, um, talk about. I, I think it is beautiful that you've gotten to that point where, you know, you have that loving relationship with your mom, your stepdad yes.

Where you were able to be there for your dad and his last moments. Uh, you know, we hear from people in so many different situations. So some people who maybe are at such a difficult spot in their relationship with their parents. So I wanna go there for a second if it's okay. And just get your advice, advice on that.

So whether they're younger or older, um, maybe their parents are going through some health issues and they're not on the best of terms, let's say, unlike your situation. And I'm sure there was stuff to work through, but it sounds like you guys were at at least a decent spot to be able to do that. What would be your advice on, you know, as a child trying to improve that relationship, trying to bring some sort of piece, some sort.

Stability perhaps, or at least some sort of union between the child or children and, and their parents who might have had a strained relationship for years. And then you get to this point in life where it's like, well, I might not be with them much longer. Like how do you deal with that? Well, I think the way that you deal with it is when I was going through spiritual direction.

One, one of the things that my Merced spiritual director had talked to me about was that it's a certain acceptance. Right? And so healing. My definition of healing really is understanding and realizing that sin exists in this world in all forms. And that what that means is that, yes, it's gonna exist in marriages, right?

It's going to exist when marriages are dis dissolved or ending, but there's still such reason for hope, because you can be healed in a way of being able to take your. Pain and to being able to help other people. I think that's the best advice I can give is take the pain and what you learned, right? What you continue to learn.

I had a lot of bumps on the road between the age of 57 and seven, starting at age seven when they got divorced. Right. And a lot of learning that happened during that time too, and, and always grow in your faith. Always continue to try to learn. know more about what does it really mean to be Catholic? It isn't a set of rules.

It isn't a set of check boxes. It isn't hopping over a fence and saying, I'm healed now. I'm all better. And now I can teach people to be like me because I still I'm still my, at my age and all that I've been through. I still need some kind. Quote healing. Don't I, me too. I mean, it's not a once and done, right.

It's a continual thing for all of us is that we are continuing to be healed by the more that we give ourselves to other people. The more that we try to take, what we've learned and try to minister to other people. and yeah, we wanna preach good marriages and, and hopefully as Catholics and people who really know our faith, we, we hope to have more healthy marriages and more healthy relationships, including for adult children or divorce.

Right. You're gonna, hopefully you'll get into a, a, a good relationship. And stay there, but statistically they say, I mean, you know, this Joey that sometimes that doesn't happen. Sometimes people are affected by divorce and they wind up getting divorced someday themselves. Mm-hmm . Um, but I think the best way to avoid that is to really pray about it, get to know your faith and put your faith first before you get into that relationship.

Right? I mean, I think that could be good advice is if you are Catholic, if you're C. And even if you're a person of Goodwill is get to know God, get to know the, get to know his will for your life. Right? God doesn't want any of us to have broken relationships. Do, does he, whether they're marriages, whether they're friendships, whether they're next door, neighbors, whatever.

I mean, God doesn't want any, God wants us to all be in communion. Doesn't he? So I think what we learn about is we learn how to foster good relationships with others and learn that forgiveness is a huge part of being an adult. Child of divorce really is. Yeah. The big part about how you get along with your parents.

It's a big part about how you get along with your siblings. You know, sometimes when parents get. Siblings don't get along all the time. There may be one parent, one sibling who loves, loves the charism of mom's side of the family. And another one who likes the dads. I'm not saying that was my situation, but there could be ones that split off that get along better with one parent or the other, but it doesn't really have to be that way.

I think in divorce situations, they like to take sides. Right. But sides are not a good thing. It's better to say that Christ wants communion. Right. He wants some kind of getting along despite the. He wants some kind of like, okay, fine. Our, our parents are divorced, separated, or an old whatever it is, but there doesn't have to be hatred.

There doesn't have to be hatred cuz hatreds the sin it's a mortal sin really is. And so I think we need to unpack that inside of our hearts and say. Despite what happened. We can move on and have love for our enemies. Love for those we get along great with and love for those who we don't get along. So great with.

I appreciate that. No, and, and that all makes a lot of sense. And, um, now it's admirable the way you're able to do that with, uh, with your parents and. There's a, a scene in the movie. Batman begins where Bruce, if you're familiar with the movie, um, those of you listening, you know, um, Bruce Wayne's parents are killed in a robbery.

And so he spends, you know, the next 10 years or so of his life just being so angry and so hateful of criminals and. And, um, he, he goes on this path to learn essentially to, to fight crime. But, um, one of the things that he wants is to rev revenge, avenge his parents' death by killing the man who killed them.

And so in the movie, what happens is essentially that person gets killed before Bruce can get to him. And, uh, and so he's, you know, very frustrated that, that he wasn't able to, to do that. And so he's just so consumed in his own pain basically. And, and there's a valid reason for that, right? He, he was really hurt by what happened and he rightfully was angry towards this person, but his childhood friend, Rachel.

Uh, has a great line and she says, look beyond your own pain, Bruce. And I think that's what I hear you saying here is like, sometimes we need to look beyond our own pain to see, okay, there's other people who are hurting now. I, I wanna caveat that to, to everyone listening, cuz I think it is important to understand that like your, your pain matters.

And what you've been through. And if you do have that anger towards your parents, uh, I would never say, you know, and I know Ann's not saying this either. Just to clarify what we're saying here, we would never say to like, shove that down or ignore it like that, that deserves its place, right. That deserves healing and all that.

But I think there, there are times where we might be, it might be necessary to look beyond our own pain in order to do what's best for someone else, as in the situation of. You know, our parents being ill and, and dying, which is of course a such a difficult chapter in life. So of course, you know, another, another caveat would be, we're not saying to walk into a very toxic or abusive situation that's should be obvious, but just to clarify that, but, but there are those situations where we might need to put our own needs or own wants in the back burner, not forever, but, but for a time, because the situation calls us to, to rise to a certain level.

Mm, I like how you address to the toxic, because I think that is also very important for people to understand that. And if someone is in a bad relationship and it it's truly toxic and, and they go through counseling and things, aren't working, you know, unfortunately, sometimes people do wind up getting separated or divorced.

I see that even with the foundation I represent and sometimes whether it be some kind of a terrible addiction that they just can't give up. something like that, you know, but just realizing that God it's a cliche line. Right. But God does write right straight with crooked lines. I mean, I do believe that I do believe that no matter what has happened in your life or in your family's life is that God loves you.

And he has only great plans, not just for you, but your whole family. Right. Your whole family. And, and sometimes at the end of our lives and at the end of their lives, it seems there's still some broken puzzle pieces there that, you know, you might say, well, I'm so sad that this didn't work out, or there's still some issues in my extended family, but don't give up praying.

Right? Don't give up praying. In fact, um, I, I like to do masses for deceased people all the time. And, um, one thing I do, my, my father died on April 16th. Of 2018 and, and, and that's right around the time of Easter. And so for this year, uh, I'm gonna be doing a mass for his soul. It actually is. On the Eve of Easter, so that Easter vigil, so the Easter vigil at my church will be for my father, you know?

And, and so I think it's just a beautiful way that if people are listening, whether it's a grandparent, maybe it's your grandparent that you like to offer a mask for, but just, you know, don't ever give up praying for your family is what I'm saying. And, and even if there seems to be so many hurtful things from the past, at the end of someone's life, that they still weren't really in your eyes, it doesn't look like they were healed.

But, you know, God continues that healing after death, doesn't he? And when we pray for them, when we offer those masses for them alive, we're dead, you know, you're, you're gonna see some things happen. It might not be in our lifetime, but remember, heaven is the goal and we might not be able to ever see that here on earth, that, that they, they definitely went to heaven were sure of that, but, but just don't give up, don't give up on.

You know, it's okay to have boundaries too, with toxic people. And sometimes with divorces and separations, you know, there might be some toxic relationships, even with your, your siblings, stepparent, uh, you know, extended family. You might need to keep some healthy boundaries there, and there's nothing wrong with that.

But just remember that God does right straight with crooked lines. And I believe that that there are only good things. He only has good things in store for all of. Yeah. Yeah. As a teenager, uh, you had that strong desire to be married and to make it last. And I think that's just a beautiful thing. And it's so inspiring that you've been able to do that, cuz you're right.

Statistically, we're more likely to repeat the cycle that we come from. Tell me a little bit, if you would. Um, how, how has your parents' divorce, the brokenness there affected your dating relationships and then your now, now marriage. Thank you so much. Well, when I was, let me think when I was a teenager, you know, every house has kind of a different sort of rule a different way.

You know, of course we're talking in 1970s, which was a different timeframe than, than now. Right. You know, I think what I. I had this desire when I was that age, where I had a desire to be friends with many people, whether they were male, female, I just wanted to be around people. I wanted to have friends. I wanted to talk on the phone.

I wanted to go places. I wanted to do things. And being that I was in that home that was, you know, from a divorce that's separated. Um, my mom was very busy. Her younger kids all the time and, and she was working and she was a great mom, but let's just say that I learned through trial and error, I guess that, you know, I learned through trial and error that we need to have kind of a boundary with ourselves, even if I have this desire, right.

I have this desire that, you know, I wanna find the right guy when I was a teenager. I want to find a family someday. so that was in my heart all the time. Right. And, and I, and I could say I got hurt some of the times I did get hurt with some of those, like teenage, like before the age of 19, when I met my husband, unfortunately I did get hurt some of the time.

Thankfully, when I met my husband, it was funny how the holy spirit worked. Because as soon as I met him, God, the holy spirit really spoke to me. I just felt like I met this person that I finally really clicked. I almost knew instantly. I know that sounds kind of another cliche thing. Right. But it was almost kind of like that God enlightened my brain.

This is it. You met him. And I remember going home that night and saying to my mom, the first time we went out on a date, I said, I think I met the person that I'm gonna spend the rest of my life with. I said, wow, now he might be listening right now. There's one thing about my husband, as you see, I'm more of a talker.

that's a good thing. I'm a talker, right? I mean, I'm a good listener too, but my husband is a very good listener. Mm he's. The type that can just sit and listen for. A half hour and he won't interrupt you. And so that was what my indicator was. I said, this is the guy because he was not at all being married to me.

I didn't wanna have a guy that I wanted to be equals with someone. Does that make sense? A hundred percent. I didn't wanna have somebody where either I was sort of in charge or that he was like, over me and kind of rolling my life, not to say that that's what marriage is about. It's not about that. There is a head of the household in that, and we know that, right?

Sure. But the whole idea that we're equals and my husband sees me as an equal in every way, in terms of our relationship. And he, my, my opinion is valuable. And in raising our kids, my opinion is also very valuable. And so, yeah. So I think even though, yeah, there were mistakes, there were things in that looking back, I probably.

Maybe should have been a little more like less eager, right? Less eager to find that, that man of my dreams when I was like 17, but in the end of the day, God provided, he, he provided my husband at the age of 19. We've been married ever since. I mean, there there's been tr we've had problems. I mean, I think every marriage let's not lie.

It's not gonna be perfect. All right. If you never argue with your spouse or disagree, I would say that person might be. Because I think that every relationship is gonna have bumps and they're gonna have, you know, times of yelling matches once in a while about this is what I think, no, this is better, you know, mm-hmm but what you do is you learn healthy communication skills.

And so that's my best advice is just, you know, if, if you've had mistakes in your life, just learn about your faith, follow your faith, move forward. And if you need counseling, just. Yeah. And thank you. And, uh, I just, I wanted to give you an opportunity too, if there's anything else you wanna say about the foundation and how people could follow you, how they can contact you aside from what you just mentioned?

Well, all I would say is we did some thinking this past year, we really did some thinking about who we are, what we do. And so I'll just give you some basic information. We have three areas of outreach. Number one is families in. Number two is marriage enrichment. And number three is outreach to divorce and separated Catholics intru, including adult children of divorce.

But our main charism is that families in crisis. So whether it's a relationship issue, as I said, pro-life job loss sickness, hospitalization. Any of those areas, please do reach out to us@nonazis.org. At our website, we offer. Priestly consultation, podcasts and videos and programs and events. We would love to come to your diocese or arch diocese to do, um, any type of presentation O on the outreach that we do, letting them know that we're there, the church cares.

And so does the St. Raymond OAU foundation. That's our little tagline, and we're there for you. And like I said, simply reach out to us on our website. Please do subscribe. We do podcast two. Can I mention that? Sure. Joey's Joey's gonna be a guest on our podcast coming up soon. So you have to listen to that one.

Um, our YouTube channel is called Philly. No. Philly like the city. That's where I'm from. You might have been able to figure that out from the accent. Philly. No NS. Okay. Subscribe to our website and watch our podcasts on families in crisis and outreach to divorce. Thank you so much again. Oh yeah. My wife's a Philly girl.

You guys are tough. Oh, she okay. Yeah. Well, we'll just talk about that more some time, but uh, thank you so much. And I wanted to, uh, wanted to give you the final word. You know, we have people listening, primarily who come from broken families, um, young people, especially. And so what advice, uh, would you give to them?

What encouragement would you give to them? Uh, if they feel broken, if they feel stuck in life because of the trauma they've endured, uh, the final word to you, what would you say? Well, we were just talking about Philly weren't we? One of our famous movie figures is Rocky and it's, it is one of my favorite movies.

And one of the things that he says is. It ain't it ain't about how, how hard you hit it's about how hard you can get hit. And I don't mean physically all the time, right? How much you can get hit and keep moving forward. And that's a secular, a secular quote, isn't it. But no matter where you are in your life, God will help you to get up again.

He will help you to, to keep fighting, fighting for the good in this world, fighting for your family, fighting for your own relationships. And I mean, fighting right in a good way. Not in a physical bad way, right? But fighting for the good fighting for the marginalized people in this world, which could be even your own family members.

Uh, I also wanna mention one of the thing is that I'm the author of the book called love and care for the marginalized. So please do, if you would check out my own website to it and as santas.com and learn about a book that might be able to help you during lent, uh, 40 meditations for Catholics love and care for the margin.

I wanna thank you, Joey. Thank you so much for this beautiful opportunity to share and thank you for all you're doing. You are doing such incredible work. And for those listening to this podcast on our page, cuz I'm gonna put this all over the place on St. Raymond and nots foundation. Please subscribe to Joey's website, restored ministry dot.

Please subscribe to all of his channels everywhere, including all of the podcasting, if you haven't done. So this is a wonderful ministry. I can't say enough. Good about Joey and about the work that he's doing for people like you and I, who are adult children of divorce, Joey. Please, never stop doing this work that you're doing.

I, I personally just am so proud of what you're doing and I thank you

the question for all of you, but especially those of you who maybe are, uh, middle aged, listening to this podcast. What can you do? To prepare to handle the fact that your parents will become ill and approach death. At some point, it's a really good question to think about and perhaps even start acting on because before we know it, as hard as it is to talk about and think about it, we're gonna have to face those difficult realities.

And if we have a tense or really struggling relationship with one of our parents, it might be good to take some steps. So hopefully bring some peace and resolution to that. Relat. If you can, it's not always possible, but it's a good thing to start thinking about and planning. You probably know that my new book is live on Amazon as titled it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigate in the pain and problems from your parents' divorce.

The truth is that for a lot of teens and young adults who come from broken family is the most traumatic thing that they've endured is their parents' separation or divorce, but nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and problems that stem from their family's brick down. And without that guidance, they continue to feel alone and struggle in serious ways with emotional problems.

Unhealthy coping relationship struggles and so much more. And I experience these exact same problems. It shouldn't be this way. We shouldn't be alone in navigating these difficult challenges. It's not your fault. My new book is an answer to that problem. It features 33 questions and answers and the most pressing challenges face by teens and young adults from broken families, such as after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted, inadequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me.

What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life events? How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage and so many more questions. The content itself is based on research, expert advice and real life stories. And after reading the book, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults are gonna experience how to handle the trauma of their parents' separation or divorce, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems.

They're gonna learn healing tactics to help them feel whole, again, super practical stuff. How to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions. About their future. So if you wanna buy the book, you can go to restored ministry.com/books on that page as well.

You can get the first chapters free. If you're not ready to buy again, that's restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. The resources mentioned are the show notes at restored ministry. Dot com slash 66. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them, always remember you are not alone.

We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.