#073: Prepare for Your Marriage, Not Just Your Wedding | Fr. Daniel Ciucci & Deacon Colin Coleman

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Written By Restored

Whether you’re single, dating, or engaged, your wedding day will be a beautiful experience. However, planning it is very consuming. As a result, it’s easy to prepare more for the wedding day than for a lifetime of marriage. 

Marriage preparation is meant to refocus you and prepare you not only for your wedding day, but for your marriage. In this episode, we discuss marriage prep and:

  • The main cause of dysfunction and divorce, according to my guests

  • What can be done to better help people from broken families to build great marriages

  • A sneaky thing that can sabotage anyone’s marriage

  • An assessment to help you understand the reality of your relationship heading toward marriage

  • Advice and encouragement for leaders of marriage prep

If you hope to be married one day or you lead marriage prep, this episode is for you. 

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Whether you're single dating or engaged, your wedding day is such a beautiful and special day. I know mine was, it was such a fun day where we had almost everyone that we love in the same place at the same time. There's probably never a time in my life where that will happen. Again. However, planning that day can be extremely time consuming, really stressful and definitely expensive.

And in many ways it can take over your life. It certainly felt that way for my wife, bridged and me, and because wedding planning is so consuming, we often prepare more for the wedding day than we do for a lifetime of a marriage, which is obviously backwards, but that's where marriage preparation comes in.

Marriage prep or premarital counseling is meant to refocus. You. On the marriage, which is naturally more important than the celebration. And so in this episode, we discuss what marriage prep looks like and why it's important. We share the main cause of dysfunction and divorce. According to my guests, we hit on what can be done to better help people who come from broken families to build great marriages where they're not just surviving and staying together, but actually thriving.

We expose a sneaky thing that can really sabotage anyone's marriage. We talk about an assessment to help you understand the reality of your relationship heading toward marriage. And finally, my guests offer advice and encouragement for leaders of marriage prep programs. So if you hope to be married one day, or maybe you lead marriage prep, this episode is for you.

Keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 70. Today I have two guests on the show. The first one is father Daniel CCI.

He probably has the shortest bio I've ever seen, which certainly does not sum him up as a person. But here it is, father Daniel has been a Catholic priest for five years and he serves as pastor of most precious blood parish in Denver, Colorado. My other guess is deacon Collin Coleman. He was baptized a Catholic, but he wasn't raised as a Catholic.

And he first encountered the faith in our Lord in a real way at age 21, just before he married his wife, Maria, after getting married, deacon Coleman helped found the St Vin's youth movement in New Zealand. He's a Kiwi in his accent is awesome. I'm excited for you to experience that. And then he was asked by the Bishop to join the diocese and youth team as director a position he held for two years.

Desiring to deepen his faith in his relationship with God deacon Coleman and his wife joined the community of the be attitudes in 1993, joining in a be attitude house in France, that was only a few miles away from Lord's a popular pilgrimage center. They were then asked to help found the be attitude house in Christ church, New Zealand, where they stayed for nine years.

They were then led to the United States to assist in the mission in Denver, Colorado, where he serves the parish as a deacon at St. Catherine of Sienna. On behalf of the archdiocese deacon Coleman teaches and provides formation for engaged couples, preparing for marriage as part of his responsibilities with the B attitude community.

He assists in the formation of new members in ongoing formation of existing members. Deacon Coleman was ordained at deacon in 2011 and has been married to Maria for the past 33 years. And they've been blessed with seven children, four daughters, two sons, and one son waiting for them in heaven. He's currently working at the archdiocese in marriage and family life office as the marriage and NFP specialist.

Now, if it wasn't obvious up to now, uh, I wanna give a little disclaimer, we're talking to a Catholic priest and a Catholic deacon. Now we try hard to make this podcast for anyone, regardless of their religious beliefs. That being said, we let our guests share their beliefs. And so today you're gonna again hear it from a Catholic priest and a Catholic DEA and who naturally share their worldview.

Now, if you're not Catholic or perhaps you're not even Christian or you don't believe in God, I'm so glad you're here. And my challenge to you is this, listen with an open mind. I guarantee that you'll benefit from this episode. Even if you take all the God parts out, and if you disagree with something that we say in this episode, there's nothing wrong with that.

We offer some resources at the end to learn more about what we're discussing, because so often when we disagree with things or with people that we don't really understand, we don't really look into both sides of the argument. I think we owe it to ourselves and to the people on the other side of the table to really look into both sides of an issue.

Now, with that said, I did wanna mention that there's two types of deacons in the Catholic church. I didn't want you to be confused to this episode. There are permanent deacons and transitional deacons, transitional deacons are not married because they're on the way to become priests. And so unless they're a part of a different writer sect that allows married priests, they aren't gonna get married.

Permanent deacons can be married because they're not on the way to become priests. And so the deacon in this interview is a permanent deacon. So he'll be talking about his wife. I just didn't want you to be confused. So with all that taken care of, here's my conversation with father Daniel and deacon Coleman,

father, and deacon. Thank you so much for being here.

I'm

happy. Thanks for the invite.

Yeah. Good to be with you. Well, I guess father,

thank you for letting us come to your house and oh, you're record here. This is great. I wanna jump in, uh, father, if you would. Uh, what do we mean when we say marriage prep for anyone who maybe doesn't really know

what we're talking about.

Beautiful. Um, so there's actually a lot of underlying presuppositions for why do we need to prepare ourselves for the sacrament of holy matrimony, right. With baptism, right? The, uh, parents and godparents get prepped, but the kid doesn't get prepped. Right. Thank goodness. That would be hard. Yeah. Um, so then why does the couple need to be prepped?

They're the ministers of the sacrament of holy Mamo. And so the husband and wife to be the bride and groom, they're the ones who, uh, who contract marriage, legally speaking. Mm-hmm . And so it's their own will their own consent. And so when we say marriage prep, I begin marriage prep by actually asking them, can you tell me what an annulment is?

Mm interesting. And which is, some people think is a really depressing way to start, but , I, I totally redeem it. You know, we say an annulment is a declaration. Well, first of all, they say, they like to say Catholic divorce. Like this is a, a special kind of marriage that like, you know, if you pay enough money, you can get it canceled so you can get remarried.

So, you know, whatever. And it's like, Nope does not work that way. Yeah, right. An annulment is a declaration that one, or both of the parties had a defect in their will. Mm-hmm in terms of their expectations of, into solu ability. The fact that marriage, uh, lasts till death to we part. exclusivity. I give myself to you and to only you, a life of sacrifice, a life of children are you open, uh, to the children that God gives you.

And then within each of those, that will needs to be fostered mm-hmm , that's what marriage prep is, is strengthening the will that they bring to the altar. Anyone can say yes on the day of their wedding. Mm-hmm anyone can even mean yes, on the day of their wedding, but everyone brings both strengths and weaknesses or defects of will to the altar as well.

Mm-hmm . And so marriage prep is trying to strengthen those, define them, strengthen the defects of will to make the couple annulment proof. That's what I also tell them. And they're sometimes they're like, whoa, that's intense. And I was like, but that's great. Cuz you love each other. Yeah. I didn't sign up for this.

Does that make sense? Yeah. No, absolutely. Roundabout way of saying, when we say marriage prep, we're strengthening the will the consent to be able to re more fruitfully, receive the blessing of God through the mediation of the church, but they themselves, the bride and the groom are the SAC. The ministers of the sacrament of holy matrimony makes so

much

sense and we prepare for so many things in life and it makes sense that marriage would need to be one of 'em.

And it's really sad that we don't prepare more. I mean, you were in seminary for years preparing to become a priest and deacon, you went through your own training as well, but it seems like there's just this mad rush to the finish line for a lot of married couple or engaged couples, I should say. Um, and sadly the marriage might suffer because we're so focused on the wedding.

We're just so focused on our future life together, not the actual sacrament. anything you would add about, um, you know, what marriage prep is and why it's important.

Sure. In that, in that way, you know, that idea of strengthening the Willers is allowing the couple also to say yes, freely in that way so that they know that when I say yes, uh, in, in freedom that I am saying yes, until death do we part mm-hmm and so it's preparing them to, as they enter into, um, give themselves to each other, through their vows that they're, um, saying yes to all of these things, good times in bad for better, or for worse sickness and health.

Um, is those moments where, yeah, because of the daily situation, we will be challenged. But my goal is to bring, as we would say through the church, bring my, my spouse to heaven that knowing that we are die, going to die, that, that this idea of being able to live with this person and, um, And be a source of really life in the community and say, say, um, say yes, in a, in a free mm-hmm so that, and our will needs to be strengthened in that.

And it's, it's, it's so important. And so being able to, um, prepare them for that moment, which is also difficult as well, as you were saying, they're caught up with so many organizational details. Yep. Um, and the Instagram culture that they're caught up with is, uh, they often forget that idea of what my yes is actually saying.

And so, and it's a real gift that the church is offering this in, in a way that it does give the, the opportunity for couples to reflect mm-hmm they have the time to actually say, well, what am I saying yes to, and am I doing it freely?

Yeah, no, it's so good. It's, it's so necessary. And going back to that point of like, why it's important.

I, I don't remember the statistics, perhaps you two might, but those couples who do go through any sort of marriage prep, premarital counseling, there are odds of having a successful marriage. Uh, is much higher or at least from what I've heard, do you guys recall the statistics? If, if not that's okay. So

each demographic is depends on the data that you see, right?

Oh, interesting. Yep. Um, but the, the Catholic divorce rate is pretty much the same as the, as the state mm-hmm , but we, so that go also goes back to do I have the will to carry out what I'm trying to live? I have the experience cuz I lead lead some, um, couples through marriage preparation and about three to five years later, they'll give me a call.

Not everyone. Thanks Peter. God. Yeah. But you know, um, one or two out of the hundreds that I deal with and I ask my first question and I ask them, is, were you able to implement some of the stuff that we went through in marriage prep and their answer is always no. Mm they, and so the idea of saying, yes, am I strengthening my will?

Am I in intentional in living out that, um, moment? Cause our will, if it's not, um, strengthened through practice is. Fail. Yeah. And so that idea of when we talk about divorce or marriages being successful, um, is, is encouraging couples to be intentional living out their vows as well.

Mm-hmm okay. No, that makes sense.

I went to Franciscan university and there's kind of this myth going around that we have like a higher divorce rate than maybe with the rest of society. I haven't been able to find any data on that. So it's just a myth when it comes to Francisco university alumni. But, um, it is true that there's still a lot of couples.

I know more than a handful at this point who they both went to this good Catholic university and now they're getting divorced and it's so sad to see that. And I'm sure you guys know people

like that as well. So yeah, I think there's a supposition that if you pray X amount of rosaries or go to at least two daily masses a week, therefore your marriage is guaranteed protected.

Yeah. You're like, uh, that's not, that's not how it works. Well, let's

say there for a second. What's the mismatch. You know, obviously there's a lot of brokenness. I think people bring into marriage and that certainly plays a big role in the issues that they face and whether or not it succeeds or not, they stay together.

They have, you know, hopefully a happy marriage, but yeah. What have you guys seen in marriages that they do maybe have some good formation. They do have this good background, but then somehow they end up in a position that they never thought they would be where they're getting divorced or things are just

really dysfunctional.

I think residually part of the culture, right? Go back to our grandparents. They came from a generation where, you know, he came back from world war II, saw some gal in, in the living room at his party and said, I'm gonna marry her. Yeah. And then they did. And then they got married three months later, they had maybe one to two meetings with the priest.

That was what marriage prep. But that came from a culture where you did what you said you were gonna do. You had a domestic life within the home. You came back, you know, mom and dad dwell together where things perfect. No, humanity's humanity. Mm-hmm but I think residually in the culture. The home life was so important.

There was such a gravitational pull, the ability to, um, you couldn't escape. Mm. You couldn't run to your phone. You couldn't stream media and whatever, and just run elsewhere. And so even just the regular domestic life, the, the, the San sanctifying, the home by vacuuming, sanctifying the home by paintings, the, the walls, right.

The regular daily life of work that even nowadays we hire that out. We have other people do. Yeah. Because we're so stressed. Yeah. We're so burdened. We're so whatever. And then I think couples feel really nowadays feel really difficult, bringing their hurt to each other. So then the home's no longer, even this place of communion that may have happened back then as well.

Right. In those days, you also kind of had the kind of grin and Barrett culture. Mm-hmm . And so that's not to say every. Everyone who was married before 1955 had an automatically sanctified marriage, right? No. Yeah, but again, divorce kind of public. The stigma of divorce is no longer, but I think that frees couples up to say, we need help.

Mm-hmm uh, and to go kind of, yeah. Seek the help that they need. Anyways. I don't what do you

have to do? Yeah. And just to segue onto that, I think that's that divorce is an option. Right. That idea of simply having it on the table is something, um, one of those, what I try and do anyway, is is that when we speak about vulnerability, that it's a very difficult thing for couples to accept.

And, um, you know, we, we dwell a bit, um, you know, and there's that passage in the Bible where, um, they were both naked yet. They had no shame mm-hmm we? Yeah, they were naked, but there was so much more to that, that they were totally exposed to one another. Mm. Right. They were able to be in their humanity before the other person without shame.

Yeah. Oh yeah. And as couples, they it's, it is very, and that's a lifelong process as well, to be able to continue to open, open up your heart to someone and, and leave it exposed. Mm-hmm, , it's scary. Right. It's, it's terrifying for, for some people, especially if they've lived through trauma and this, I, the other idea that, um, we try and reinforce as well is even though these couples yeah.

There, we have a, where we, we live a pious life. Being a gift to the other person, right? Are, are we really allowing ourselves to be that gift? Or are, are we expecting too much from the other person and not really voicing it? Are we actually able to bring, you know, as Christians, as Catholics, the person of Jesus Christ into the midst, rather than having that external faith of, well, I went to mass, but how did we seek communion as a couple mm-hmm and those times where I think there's a lot of neglect and, um, who they are as a couple.

And I think with the culture as it is today, um, there's that trap of becoming very functional as a couple. Mm-hmm like, we'll, we'll get we'll, we'll move in. Denver's expensive. Right. So we gotta live together. Yeah. Right. And, um, who needs a two bedroom when we can have a one bedroom and so, right. So we become sexually active and then, you know, I think we should make more of a commitment.

We should get a dog.

As a sign of undying love for each other. Yes. Right?

Yeah. But this is, you know, but what do you do for a dog? You look after it and it's very functional. Yeah. Yeah. Right. There's no, um, giving of yourself in that sense. Well, the dog loves me. Right. And it loves unconditionally will you feed you?

Don't feed that dog for three days and tell me how much that dog loves you. Yeah. Right. Um, and so these kind of things, um, where, you know, this natural, you know, um, when we're talking about the 1950s, there, there was this expectation of bringing children into the family. And so you, then you see your love yeah.

Manifested through, through, through that child. And so it's, you can't be manifested through a dog and I like dogs by the way. Yeah, me too. Yeah. But, um, you can't see it truly manifested and I think that's where couples, especially faith, we, and I'm doing ear quotes, faithful couples. Yeah. There's not that often, and it's not a reason, but it's one of the factors that I think there's no, there's not a vulnerability, but they, and so there's not that emotional connection.

There's more of a functional relationship. And so I always say people are generally annoying. Right. And so if you're living one, living with one , I was like,

thank you. even celebrates recognize that.

Yeah. but if you're living with someone by goodness, and if it's a function and if it's a functioning, functional relationship, those, uh, annoyances are just gonna become manifested.

And then yeah. Often the, the phrases said, I don't love you anymore.

Right? Yeah. Or you're not the person I fell in love with. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Which is more of a statement of my personal preference. Yeah. Than of you changed somehow. You're not

doing your job properly in the relationship.

Yeah. Mm-hmm and it's so funny that you brought up, um, you know, naked, without shame.

So many of these couples come to us already, you know, sexually active, whatever they met on Tinder, you know, um, whatever it. And they'll they'll come already have having tasted the fruits of those intimacies. Yeah. But then you ask them to pray together and it's so awkward. Yeah. Mm they're like, oh, I, I, they're afraid of being judged and you're like, but this is the person with whom you feel, you feel comfortable, you know, being naked literally.

Yeah. But it's not just physical nakedness. It's the, like, what are the other wounds who, you know, who's the embarrassing sixth grade version of me that you don't yet know about or, or my dysfunctional family behind me. Uh, and, and, and so they can kind of share a certain part of their life, but still kind of withhold the vulnerability, emotional, spiritual, whatever it may be.

Uh, and then that's, that's super preventative from whole, from communion with one another mm-hmm . And then to go back to the fifties, uh, round out this thought, I think you, you, in those days, a man and a woman went from a family and then formed a family. Mm. and that's the notion that we still have in the ceremony of the father giving away his daughter, that she's literally handed over as a prized jewel as a, uh, you know, a, a pinnacle of God's creation.

But so often we have either broken families like weddings. I always have to ask, like, what are the, what are the family dynamics when everybody shows up to this wedding, because rarely is it a bride and a groom coming from an intact family. And they seek to form that intact family. But again, in certain marriage prep, we're trying to strengthen the will so that they can will by God's grace to live that out in the daily, boring Tuesday mornings of, of marriage, not just Saturday nights and Friday nights, when, when everything's awesome.

Yeah, so good.

And you know, some, the majority of our audience comes from broken families. So I'm glad you're bringing that up. Thinking what you were saying before about kind of running the home or the family as like a business. Mm. I know it's honestly a tendency in me and I think in American culture, especially like type a people, people like me, um, yeah, that functional can be very tempting, especially cuz I like run, you know, a company.

Yeah. And then I run this nonprofit as well. So it's like, well, marriage is different. And our marriage counselor would like try to remind me of that. Like again and again, we've gone to marriage counseling. It's like this isn't a business. This isn't gonna be efficient. So I think it's an important reminder to, to hear, I did wanna go into, I know each of you have, um, your own form of marriage prep, so I'd love to learn kind of what that looks like.

Like if, if a couple listening right now were to go through it, what would they do? Uh, what, what's the agenda like? And so on

father,

you wanna start. So there's gonna be a lot of common eye cuz we both do ministry within the archdiocese of Denver and there's kind of prerequisite mm-hmm um, Requirements for that.

Um, so one would be the focus inventory, which a lot of couples are like, how did we do on the test? They want to know like X percentage. It is not a team. Yeah. Not a test. It's not, it's not gonna give you red light green light. Are you good to go or not? Yeah. Um, I kind of saw it like that, but I had to fight against that too.

I was like, wait, it's not a test. It's just like an indicator. And it's so funny cuz we even have instructions from that company to not give them the full results for a couple reasons one. Right, right. They don't want, you don't want them to quantify the relationship. Yeah. Like we're only, uh, 86% good on finances, but 62% on uh, extended family issues or whatever it is.

Yeah. It just kind of, it's an inventory that says, Hey, this couple based on their responses has less agreement around the area of finances, friends, hobbies, bonding, activities, whatever it is. and then the relationship comes to life. That's why I, as a celibate priest, I send them, uh, I, I go through their focus inventory once with them.

Mm-hmm and then I send them to another couple. I always say, I'm a really good mechanic. I just don't drive the car. Mm-hmm right. And so I don't have the driving skills, but I can fix a lot of things. I've seen a lot of things in the confessional. I've seen a lot of things in my office. I've heard a lot of things at 1130 at night when crap's going down and they call me, right?

Yeah. So I send them to couples who are living the life of holy matrimony, cuz I can provide a lot of the theology and the theory. But they also need that on the ground. So focus would be one thing. Natural family planning would be another thing. Um, again, I, uh, I send, we send that out elsewhere specialists.

Mm-hmm um, cuz there's a lot of biological needs now. Mm-hmm mm-hmm um, with, with that, would you explain FP for people who don't know? Yeah. Natural family planning. So even if, uh, for those who are non-religious, it's such an empowering tool for women, especially that way they don't have to be kind of the gatekeepers in the relationship or depend on, you know, chemicals or plastic to kind of in regards to contraception in regards to contraception.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, they don't have to depend on that to just kind of control the aspects of their life again, when they, when a couple says, I give myself to you fruit fully faithfully fruitfully forever. Part of that is I give you the gift of my ability to reproduce mm-hmm I give you my, my biological fity.

Mm, right. Mm-hmm . And so the church has, uh, a teaching around contraception that to withhold a portion of yourself. Is actually gonna spiritually sterilize the relationship as well. Plus the other way I like to explain it is, um, you know, if, if little Johnny gets to eat an Oreo, whenever he wants, even if he can metabolize that Oreo mm-hmm, , it's gonna change his character, even if it doesn't change his weight.

Hmm. And so I think so many, especially guys come into marriage thinking, oh boy, I get to be intimate as often as I want. Right. There's actually a question on the focus inventory that says, it's question number 10. I love it. Uh, it's my ex I, I expect that our, our life of intimacy will be affected by changes in mood and da, da, da, and like three other circumstances.

And without fail women always say yes, and men always say, no, , that's nice. And you're like, welcome to male and female I love it. So we have, we have those ingredients and then there's a theological retreat, uh, over the course of the pandemic. I'm not, I don't love online marriage prep. Mm-hmm cause I say your marriage doesn't happen online.

Why should your marriage prep happen online? And there are fair enough. Of course there's circumstances, uh, couples in the military, first responders, things like that, where, where their schedule is super taxing mm-hmm mm-hmm um, but even we have workarounds for that. So every now and again, online, the theological portion of marriage prep is, is fine.

I personally meet with them about five times mm-hmm um, and then we try to send them to an in-person marriage prep retreat mm-hmm which retreat experience that centralizes on prayer that centralizes on theology of the body, but in just in my meetings with them, I always start out with, um, great. Tell me about your last big fight.

Your LBF. And you get the couples that, you know, they don't mind throwing spaghetti against the wall, to the ones that are very cute. And they're like, oh father, we never fight we, we love each other. yeah. And I'm like, great. Uh when's the last time your blood pressure was raised. right. Like we can redefine the terms here.

Yeah. But often it's the ones that quote unquote don't fight, uh, that have kind of a more sinister difficulty, cuz it looks better on paper. And sometimes if you're always walking on eggshells or you come from a place where there's a lack of freedom to be expressive, mm-hmm, , there's a lack of freedom to, um, to bring up hard things conflict, right?

Not only are people are annoying, but, but my future spouse has a darkened intellect. A weakened will. And on top of those things is gonna from time to time be selfish and then I'm going to have to suffer from that. And so do I have the skills? The reason I ask about last big fight is I don't care about the fight.

I care about teasing out. What's important because at the center of a fight is what do I love? Mm what's important to me. Yeah. And does my, does my future spouse recognize that? Am I known by him or her? And then do we have the skills to communicate that if not, then let's go through it. And if we do, do we also have the skills to forgive because there is no fight that can't strengthen the relationship.

If there's the will to do it. Mm-hmm , if there's the will to strengthen that relationship, mm-hmm, just like, how do you build muscles? You break muscle fibers. Mm-hmm by lifting heavy weights and in the breaking and the repairing with good nourishment with good sleep, with good everything else, it actually comes back stronger.

And so fights are absolutely no problem. So I start out with that and then other, uh, modules, it just depends. I have them make a genogram. Yeah, I love this part of your, which is, uh, so they come and, and it's essentially a really complicated family tree that also shows kind of emotional lines and things like that.

Who, who doesn't talk to who or who loves who, or, or whatever, mm-hmm how much. And so I say, how much divorce is going on in this? How much alcoholism, how much, um, what's, what's the economic outlook on each of these families? Because again, you're not just marrying your fiance. You're getting the whole family too marrying the family.

And this whole family was part of their marriage prep long before they showed up in father's office. Mm-hmm . Right. That's what we call the remote marriage, prep, deacon. And, and I are the proximate marriage prep. Mm-hmm, where the, like, kind of the last, the last finishers with that. And so their concept of what marriage is of what marriage looks like of how to live it on a daily basis.

Mm-hmm right. May look very different than what gets preached to the pulpit or even what they hear within our office. Yeah. We talk about the role of sexual pleasure and marriage, which is kind of awkward in my first two or three couples. but it's like, heck if I, uh, I it's no longer awkward for me, but it's one of those, like if I get all like claiming and weird, then I don't, I I'm afraid that I, I would give the impression that, you know, sex is actually like gross, sturdy and disgusting, and God only puts up with it for more babies.

Right. Right. Which is so the opposite of theology of the body. Mm-hmm yeah. It's a botanical point of view. Exactly. And so, especially even couples that have already been engaging with each other sexually. , it's a really beautiful thing for them to experience validation from the church. Not only in their desires, even if they don't have the proper forum for it yet, but also to say, this is where this, this gift from God belongs mm-hmm and this is how, how you can put it to use in a way that's spiritually fruitful.

Mm-hmm go back to NFP, go back to Johnny. Johnny doesn't most parents don't let Johnny eat an Oreo whenever he darn well pleases mm-hmm . And so the beauty of living natural family planning is there are times to come together to be intimate. There are times to not, which then makes the couple yearn for each other and has the positive result of teaching men, especially to express physical non-sexual affirmation towards their, their wives.

Right. Mm-hmm . And so there's just so much genius in the life of the church that we're seeking to, um, add there. So yeah,

no, I agree. This is a whole idea of, um, Especially when they come to us, myself and father they're, they're already been formed in a way of, of how to think. And so this, this idea of the church's desire, when we speak about remote preparation, that's preparing the couple from their family and, and them seeing their family life flourish in marriage, but more than often, that's not the case.

And, and, you know, um, this, the horrible statistics of, of divorce, which is one and two. So even the idea of what love is. Yeah. Right. And then when we speak about love, the church has a beautiful, um, grace of that, especially, you know, if we really wanna even bring in the person of Jesus Christ, that all idea of self-sacrifice for, um, his church.

And so for, for, for myself, it's, it's similar with father, of course we have, you know, a certain criteria that we have to follow. Um, but for me, I really wanna establish a relationship with him as well. Mm-hmm to know. Because they do come in thinking, well, I've got a, and the first, often our first meeting is there is some paperwork involved, so it's a, and um, and then the focus, which literally looks like a test.

Yeah. Um, uh, and even though you say it many, many times, they'll come back and say, you know, did I pass? Or how was the test? Did I, but this is, I love it. This is a beautiful thing because they do want to quantify it. Yeah. But the, the idea is cuz they haven't nine times outta 10. They haven't been married before.

And they're, they're, you know, between, uh, 20 and 30, more or less. Uh, and um, so they're entering into this relationship even though they're um, maybe living with this person mm-hmm um, they're. don't have the, they don't have the knowledge to ask those questions. Mm-hmm or even, you know, the focus again, speaks about pets and, um, how we, how we deal with those and, um, welcome them into a, the family.

So the main thing I wanna try and do is walk with them. Uh, and I want to hear their story as well. Like that the, the, the, the gene, the genealogy in the family, uh, that's encouraging. Why are they here right now? What, what brought them here? What's their story to hear? And it's not where they first met or things like that.

It said, I want a bit larger. What, like, where, what is your story? Mm. Cause that's the story you're bringing into to make your story as a couple. Right. And so we, yeah, we go through and, um, and it is such a joy to share, uh, what the church actually teaches mm-hmm because, you know, I often remind couples, you know, the church has been doing this for almost 2000 years.

Right. So she's kind of worked out a bit of stuff. Yeah. And I always speak that, you know, as we speak, as the church is feminine, it's she, as a mother, she loves us. So she's trying to work out all these kind of things to help us grow. And, um, and even sharing this idea of the church was very prudish before.

And didn't really speak about sex. I have this beautiful document from 1951 where it pop, uh, pop the 12th, I think is saying six is joyful and pleasurable and, and couples should be encouraged to engage in that. Nice boom. Yeah,

really? Yeah. And if you read anything that jump on the second road, you realize

that for sure.

And then, you know, he wrote that beautiful book, love and responsibility, and he, he actually goes into more detail into that hundred percent. And I don't know what the rating is over this podcast, but I won't go into it, but it's very explicit. But how, but also how beautiful it can be. Especially if, if a man is there to seek the good of his spouse, right.

And, and, and to seek her good and all of that. And it's beautiful that father was saying about NFP. Uh, I know even with him and I bring, I bring a lot of my own personal story into it as well. Sure. Cause I'm, I'm a convert to the faith and, um, and in my marriage as a deacon, I'm a permanent deacon. I'm married with.

Um, we, we welcome children into our family. It's been a beautiful thing, but I know, uh, when we were first engaged, my wife had to was finishing college and we didn't, we didn't wanna start a family. And so I said, when are you, when are you going on a pill? And she, and I can't do that. It's, you know, it wasn't good for us.

And so we, uh, and it was so I thought, well, we already decided we weren't gonna have children for two years. What am I gonna do? And I was a bit worried, cause I didn't even have a membership to a gym or anything like that. What am I gonna do with all this energy ? And so here it was this idea of through periodic abstinence, cuz also in a natural family planning teaches.

The actual biology of, of male and female. And it shows women often who don't even know that their fertility is a cycle. And, um, they're only actually fertile for a short period of time during that cycle. And so if they engage in sexual activity during that time, it is not an accident it's actually doing what your bodies are supposed to be doing.

Sure. Uh, if a baby comes. And so here, that idea of abstaining during, during that short period of time, like, and again, it literally changes the brain chemistry. Mm-hmm of a man to, to abstain and, and desire intimacy of often through nonsexual touch it. It enables a man and a to phrase it in the way of it actually changes his gaze towards his wife.

Mm. He sees her. as her, as she's supposed to be seeing mm-hmm, not as, uh, uh, an object of his last, an object of his arousal. And so these beautiful things, we try and, um, speak to them, but often that's a new language. Yeah. As well. I was actually just finishing a class last night and a guy, uh, put up his hand.

He said, everyone keeps talking about sacraments. What are they? So for a Catholic it's like, yeah, we know what sacraments is. I know there's more than three, but, you know, um, um, and so we had to, so I actually had to once again, realize some of the language that we're even using. And so it's walking with them, enables them and hearing their story.

It's um, I'm able to, you know, um, hear what their Lang, what language they're actually speaking. So we can bring, um, this idea of marriage prep into it. Mm-hmm . Um, but it's also speaking the truth as well. I, um, it, hopefully they've walking with them. They've realized that I'm kind of a logical and normal person.

Even though my therapist says otherwise, you, weren't supposed to say that loud. Yeah. Oh yeah. Sorry. But I also, you know, if I, I, I often use the phrase, I say, if you are getting married and the church says that marriage is this, then it can't be something else. And so what you are doing is in itself very, very sacred mm-hmm

And so this is why we are encouraging to work very hard at it, but it's must and people say marriage is hard work. Yeah. It's good work. I mean, it's, it's good work. Yeah. If we are willing to be that gift to the other person. Yeah. So it's really just encouraging 'em to get into that mindset as they move along.

So that, and I also, and so my goal is I, yeah, I'll, I'll get you ready for the day mm-hmm right. We'll do all the stuff that we need to do for the day for the ceremony. That's no problem, but that is not my goal. And I say to them, my goal is old and wrinkly. because that's where it is. Um, and so, and I say, you know, yes, you, you wanna stay married until death, but if you have that goal, at least you'll be close.

Beautiful. Thank you both. And so basically what I'm hearing is marriage prep is in a way training, let's say at least the last part of training to prepare people, to hopefully have a beautiful, loving, successful marriage. And you're going through all the different things that the church teaches, which through its 2000 years around, um, in existence, it's learned that these are the things that help people have like really beautiful marriages that stay true to the nature of the human person.

Any final thoughts on that before we

move on? Well, I think that, um, like you were talking about screens in our culture more and more today is marriage is under threat or marriage is, uh, is at risk. Um, because there are so many distractions and even if a simple thing of having screen free evenings can really bring greater intimacy to a couple.

And so that idea of recognizing that we are entering into a, a relationship that is not actually supported by our culture. And so therefore we have to be more attentive to each other.

And I think the, the beauty of marriage prep is even just on a natural level. So apart from the fact that we're preparing the couple to receive the grace of God, we're inviting them to begin to pray with each other.

If, if they've never done it before, or I love marriage prep with, uh, a Protestant and a Catholic, cause then you say, all right, why don't we close in prayer? And the Protestant can just say, all right, father, God, we just come before you right now. And we, they, they can just dive right in. Yeah. And the Catholic's like,

um, father, son

hail Mary full of grace.

The Lord is with me. Right. And because again, expressive prayer is vulner. it, it puts myself out there and it, and it, but it invites we're. What we're trying to do is invite their, their relationship, uh, with God and with each other to both grow closer, which, you know, that's an image of a triangle as the two points grow up the line to reach the top point.

They also grow closer to one another God being the top, God being the top being the two ends. Yep. Yep. And so, uh, so you have that by way of grace, but even for those who are not religious or those who have left the church, I just, I always say, find a therapist or find someone who's willing to fight for the good of your, of your relationship, because you both are flawed and that's indisputable.

Oh yeah. Right. And so ha to have. We, you know, we call it a transcendent third God, uh, and then mediated by the church and mediated by, you know, priest, deacons, uh, lay faithful. But even if someone doesn't feel that they have access to the church in that regard to find just another person, again, a therapist or someone else who can just poke to find the tender spots of the relationship and mediate, good, helpful, fruitful communication between the two of those.

That's a great step forward. And then later, if they seek the grace of the, that the church desires to offer again in freedom, not because grandmother, you know, will pay for the photographer or because of a Catholic guilt trip that they just need to get it done in the church, but the free choice to say yeah.

So to have to have another walk with the couple, no matter their circumstance, mm-hmm is just gonna be powerful and that's open to everybody.

Yeah, no, beautiful. It, it makes so much sense. And you two have obviously worked with a lot of different couples. I'm curious. I, I kind of asked this question before, but I wanna hear if you have anything to add to it, what do you see as the main cause of dysfunction and divorce?

Uh, so the couples, hopefully listening right now, whether they're married, engaged, dating can work against those things. Those factors. Again, you touched on this before. I'm just curious, like, what are those main causes of dysfunction divorce that we can fight?

Dicken. Yeah. That idea of, you know, if we go back to that piece of description naked, without shame is, is, am, cuz my emotions are gonna come and I'm gonna be angry, frustrated, joyful, happy, sad.

Um, and, but how do I, um, come before the other person, um, still, you know, we use the language still seeking their beauty and their dignity. Right. But, but I'm but being, allowing myself to have those emotions mm-hmm and so that idea of, I, I, I like to use the analogy of having two, two, um, French doors, I suppose, on your, on your, on your heart.

Is that how you said this? um, and just having those open. Right. And so somebody can just look in and, uh, so the, and, and often we don't have the skills for that. I, I say to couple straight away, communication is a skill, um, entering into these kind of moments of reflection is a skill and being used to that.

And so, um, yeah, and, and walking with the church, there are, there are a deacons priest there's lay faithful, but if they're not, there is walking with a counselor, uh, to, to have those moments of vulnerability and growing in that it's not because that their marriage is struggling, that they need a counselor as they need a counselor to keep their marriage strong.

Right. And these ideas of growing in that skill. And I, uh, also that muscle memory of being able to share who I am, or having, even having, even having moments. It comes back that whole functionality of a, of a, um, of a couple, you know, I'm, I'm tired. So I'm gonna sit in front of, um, I don't know, what is it now?

Instagram? What's the latest one. Yeah. Tick TOK, tick TOK, right? Tick. Oh my goodness. Gracious. but sit in front of there for three hours cuz I deserve it. I've had a hard day. Yeah, right. Rather than being intentional than in, um, seeking a relationship with, with my spouse. Um, and so cause when we talk about priorities, um, for a Christian marriage's God, so you can, you know, you can say lovingly to your wife, you're number two and my life' sweetheart.

Right. Um, but this idea of is my spouse, the top priority mm-hmm in, in, in my. in my life. Yeah. Right. And it's, it's that idea of being able to work intentionally and it's not something we can get lazy at as well. Yeah. And I think that's where easy to do it is easy to do cuz it's, it's tough work and um, but it's, I keep reminding if it's a good work, it's worth it, right?

Yeah. If we were, if we had to get up every day and um, I don't know, press a button or do a certain exercise to maintain world peace, we would do it. Right. Mm-hmm sure. Even though it was tough sometimes, and it's the same thing with the relationship and I, and, and once again, going back to the idea of having divorces an option as well right now, I'm not, of course we can immediately go to those extreme examples where you church is never saying, you know, tough it out or learn to, you know, keep your, keep your, keep your hands up.

Yeah. Don't

don't like continue to be abused, like get to safety. That's

of course. should, but it's these, like when we're talking about, uh, people who are reasonable and, and still discovering what love is, it's, it's actually taking the time that maybe, I don't know, and I still wanna discover it, but with you,

yeah, in that sense, one, uh, one myth, I think that's out there to, you touched on it already is this idea that if we really love each other, if we're really good for each other, then marriage should be easy.

Like it's almost as if things should just fall into place. Cuz we love each other. And I think the experience of falling in love can give that illusion, especially cuz it's really easy in the beginning of your relationship. Everything's great. and then, you know, you realize that you're both human, you're broken, you have flaws, you get annoyed, you know, you get angry, you get whatever.

Um, but we even see that with, you know, psychologists and the data that's showing there is a, there's a couple goes through a cycle. Any long term committed relationship. Mm-hmm they say we call it marriage. Right? We'll go through it. Uh, uh, a time where they're just. Don't like the other person. Yeah. Right.

I, I have no feelings of love towards you. And, but that is a natural and healthy thing in, in, in a couple relationship and recognizing that is being able to, okay. We freely go, um, um, desire to enter into this relationship. We, we, um, we know that love is not a feeling, it's a choice. So today I'm gonna choose to love you.

And I'm gonna manifest that through my actions. Yeah. And so this idea is, and, and that the data seems to show once again, the, the data is the data that normally happens about three to five years into a marriage. Mm wow. And if you look at the divorce statistics, it's extremely similar. Yeah. Yeah.

That makes so much sense.

So, so it is, we need to learn these skills. It's not just a matter of like, oh, we feel really good about each other. We love each other. And. The emotional sense, not the action sense of the word. So father, I'm just curious from your point of view, anything to add to that, and what do you see as like at the root of a lot of dysfunction divorce?

Yeah.

In additional, uh, similar, similar to what deacon said. I think it's, um, an unwillingness to ask for help. Mm-hmm right. How many, how many people do their own taxes anymore? Very few. They ask for help from, you know, software companies to people, right? Yeah. Who gives we, we also live in a culture where you can't prescribe yourself medical stuff, even if you are a doctor, right?

Yeah. So we live in a society where you're interdependent on pretty much everything that you have to go to an expert for someone, something else. Right. Mm-hmm go to lawyers, but in order for 'em to be lawyers, they have to pass the bar. There's a certain kind of preparation, right? Why do we not do this with marriage?

Why do we not bring our marriage up for a certain kind of maintenance? Right. Why do couples not take the day off of work for their anniversary? And say, let's spend the day together. Wow. Intimately or hash it out or whatever it is. And it's, you know, we will say busy, busy, busy mm-hmm . I once gave a, a, a marriage homely series up at my former parish.

And I started out with, we live in a culture that does not tolerate broken cars. We live in a culture where you're pretty much guaranteed to have a car mm-hmm right. There are gas stations everywhere. There are, uh, mechanics everywhere. And the way that this country is set up so far apart, and we're not a very ambulatory culture, we pretty much guarantee that you can get access to a car.

Why not? But again, the maintenance, the fueling, why do we not do that with marriage? What's the kind of maintenance required for holy Mamo. If we change the oil every three to six months, what's the equivalent of that in holy Mamo. If we fuel up once or twice a week, what's the equivalent of that in holy matrimony, mm-hmm would that we were a culture that didn't tolerate the failure of marriages.

Amen. Cause we don't tolerate the failure of cars, but cars require upkeep. So to, uh, marriages. And so I think it's the, it's the question of the question on people's mind. And this is the goal of marriage. Prep is to move the, if we'll stay together to how will will we stay together? Mm-hmm because when people, you don't need to actually know how you'll stay together, you don't know what the economy's gonna do 10 years from now.

You don't know what jobs are gonna be like, you don't know what, you know, kid number two is gonna be in relation to kid. Number one, mm-hmm you, but all you need is moral certitude to say, I believe that God is faithful. I believe that I have the will. Uh, there was a point at which we were totally in love with each other.

Mm. feeling is not everything. And so it's not the question of, if we'll stay together, that's gotta be off the table. Mm it's. How will we stay together? And then that how begs a willingness to seek help. Wow. Therapists, family, community. And I think we have to destigmatize just like we've unfortunately destigmatized, uh, well, we don't love stigmas, so, um, but we've, destigmatized, uh, divorce, but we need to destigmatize marital issues, marital problems.

Right. Would that a couple could just go to another couple in church and say, can we come over tonight? Like we're having a really tough time that, and just vulnerably say, you know, I'm, we're hurting. Not just I'm hurting mm-hmm right. Wow. And we don't need to shovel out blame on anyone again, everyone's got a bro.

A weekend will darkened intellect. Mm-hmm uh, everyone's got their own sin. So of course this is gonna come up. So let's create a culture where we don't tolerate the failure of marriages. So good. If

people wanna listen to those homilies, how do they do

that? I can send you the audio recordings. Okay. We'll put it in the show.

Now. There

you go. Sounds good. Is it it's on YouTube or

no? Uh, not from my former parish. That was okay. The pre pandemic reality of the church, the post pandemic reality with the church. What is live streaming? Yes, exactly.

we, we upgraded the tech of the church. Yeah. I wanna shift gears a little bit. There's so much we could talk about that forever, but I'm curious when it comes to

so

pretty.

I just want to just segue back to that go. Yeah. The other thing I think when we talk about pressure on marriage is, um, and I'm gonna talk about Hollywood as a general thing, but the idea of, um, marriage does the dissolution of marriage or divorce has become something more of a. A thing to aspire to almost, or even promote it, like, yeah.

So, you know, of course we'll get back together, but it's, it's some kind of a drama. And I think the, um, as society we've adhered too much to that to think of as, as truth. Hmm. Rather than just entertainment. Um, but even then entertainment, you know, going back to what father was saying to even not tolerate, um, divorce.

Yeah. Um, this idea where Hollywood has really permeated our culture and the more and more we have screens, the more and more it is gonna be harder to challenge that.

No. And when we say not tolerate, I don't wanna set up this, like yeah. Grin and bear it, you must suffer and you have to stay. Right. Yeah. But again, so the support systems, what I'm advocating for is the support systems, right.

There are, the church does have an annulment process because she does envision humanity will contract invalid marriages. Sure. Which will. More than like more than like more likely than not result in divorce result in dysfunction. Sure. And actually the annulment process, although this is a different podcast, is its own salutary healing.

Mm-hmm , uh, process as well in view of if one or both parties wants to get married again for the second time, naturally speaking, but married for the first time. Sacramentally speaking. Sure. Because again, declaration that the marriage never rose to the level of the sacrament, the natural marriage never rose to the level of a sacrament mm-hmm

But when I say we don't want to tolerate divorce, I just wanna make sure people don't hear we're Catholic. You have to be stuck in the relationship. You have to stick it out. God wills, your unhappiness. God wants your misery. Uh, because, because people who are hurting can hear certain things. Yeah. And just, and, and it hits them in a certain way.

And that's not God desires our happiness, the church desires our happiness. Yeah. We pursue that through the pursuit of holiness and the life in Jesus Christ mean, thanks for clarifying

that. And yeah. So anyone listening right now, and maybe you're in an abusive marriage, maybe it's not safe. What we always say in this show and what the church says is get to safety.

And as father was saying, there's a reason, reason for the annulment process, perhaps your marriage ISN invalid. But I think that the default really needs to be, it's like, even if civilly, we need to put up barriers between one spouse and another, because not safe for that spouse and the children. Yep.

There's a difference between the civil marriage and the Sacramento or the natural marriage bond, which is a deeper reality. And so I think it's some of the most heroic people I know are the ones who maybe perhaps do have a valid marriage. One of the spouses just went off the deep. and the other one, they obviously can't be together because it's not safe or some extreme dysfunction.

Maybe one of them is being unfaithful. And just continuing that lifestyle, you obviously should not live together in that case. But the most rogue people, I think I've seen are the ones who are, have been deserted have been abandoned. And even in the case of a valid marriage, they say true to their wedding vows, even though their spouse isn't yeah.

I have so much admiration for those people. I don't know. That's such suffering and that's a really difficult thing, but I think that gets to the core of like, this is how serious we take these wedding vows.

Amen. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And I have many examples of that and it's, I'm sure I agree. I agree with the word heroic.

Absolutely. Yeah,

absolutely. Lots to say on that one. I hope we covered it. Okay. Um, when it comes to, uh, leading people through marriage prep, um, leading, you know, marriages overall guiding them, where do you think we're failing young couples in particular when it comes to marriage overall and especially marriage

prep.

Where are we failing the couples in their marriage? Prep?

Yeah. Marriage prep. And then marriage overall, like you guys have already touched on a lot of this, I think, but it's like, what can we be doing better? Where are we failing them? The second question is like, what can we be doing better? But the first one is like, where are we?

Especially as a Catholic church, like not doing our part to build up these marriages and even prepare people for marriages. Cuz one, one of the problems that I see is like, you know, we go through marriage prep and then it's kind of like, see you guys like good luck, you know, hopefully you make it. And that's honestly just somewhat of a practical thing.

I think where you guys like there's so few resources and there's so few priests. And so I think that's a practical issue, but, um, but I think that's like one area where it's like, okay, we can have lay people step up. Mm-hmm to, you know, and there's some good initiative going on. I don't wanna say that it's dark everywhere, but um, yeah, I'm just curious, like what, what do you see as like, we really are failing

here and here.

Hmm. Yeah. I would say, um, let me answer it obliquely. I think there's a narrative. I think there's an unhelpful narrative that priests are busy. We have a lot to do, but by the way, a priest chooses to pray and to live his life that determines whether he has a spirit of frantic busyness or not. Hmm. Having an occupied schedule is different than busy.

And so many people come up to the priest father. I know you're so busy, but, or, and, or, or they don't come up to the priest because they fear that he's busy. Mm-hmm, uh, many things priests can't always control what comes their way, but we can almost always control when it comes our way minus the prescheduled things.

Right? Sure. We can, you know, reschedule this funeral or this meeting or this whatever. And so I think one way in which the church sometimes does fail people is the inaccessibility of priests. Interesting. Um, one of the, the things that I've chosen to do in my priesthood is to meet with my couples five times each.

And if, you know, if I've got a couple, if I'm marrying a, a decent amount of couples in a year, that's a, a number of, of meetings. Mm. But at the same time, how often do I, I eat dinner every night. Sure. Right. Why not combine that? And so, so for me, it's to have couples feel like they have access to a priest in their preparatory time, and then they can come back and say, father, we need help.

Mm. Or father, whatever it is. I did marriage prep, um, for a couple who their first child, uh, has, was born with down syndrome. Mm. It was a very kind of difficult time for them in terms of reg gaging their expectations. Yeah. But it was a really beautiful thing to be able to try to reach out to them and to make sure they know the church is there for them.

But only that, that only happens when we're historically walking with people. Mm-hmm, when we're setting it up. And so I, I think one of the things I'd point to is to just make sure that priests. And deacons the, the, the hierarchy, the, the clergy of the church that, that were with the people mm-hmm, , uh, that were with the couples of marriage pet.

Because unfortunately, a lot of times you have, you know, go see this NFP person, go see this couple, and then you go meet with father once before the wedding mm-hmm and then father's like, okay, where did you meet? What's your love song? I'm just trying to craft the homily fear wedding. Yeah. But we have so much, and maybe that's, that's what I'm pointing to.

We have so much riding on the wedding day and the wedding day is like a fairly darn easy day of your marriage, right? Oh yeah. Everything's prescheduled some people have coordinators, right. If something goes wrong, someone else is gonna take care of it. Everyone's there for you, right. Yeah. Two weeks later.

Not everyone's necessarily there for you, right? Yeah. In the same way. Sure. And so, um, I, I want married couples to know that the church is there for them in the brokenness of their marriage. um, because I have, I have other priests, brother priests that are there for the brokenness in my priesthood. Yeah.

Right. And I need that support because we all have our own brokenness. And so for the, I think for people to hear it from the church more it's okay to be hurting. It's okay. To be broken mm-hmm and it's okay to reach out for help. It's okay. To ask a priest, to ask a deacon, to ask a counselor, a Catholic counselor, whatever it is.

Mm-hmm because otherwise, if we just, you know, PR around that, everything's fine. Well, I don't know, pick up a newspaper. And do you tell me? Yeah, no. So true.

DEA Dicken, you know, I agree. And that I think, um, the idea of when we talk about marriage, prayer, but it, it obviously there's a process that you have to follow cause you are working towards a date.

And, um, and often a couple comes to us. They've they're nine times out to him. They they've pretty much got a date booked already. Mm-hmm right. Um, and so they're trying to work in with that. And I think where the church is probably failing, is that, is that process approach or convey? I, I call it a conveyor belt.

We don't want to drop the couple on the beginning of the conveyor belt. And then when they drop off the end it's we are done with them. Yeah. And we try and because, you know, we, when we talk about this term remote preparation, there's often, there's not that. preparation for their life together. That's been really engaged in by their own family that encouraging them to live this life.

Um, and it's beautiful when that it does happen, but not, not very, not very often. So the church often wants to really shove it a whole lot of information into the couples. Yeah. Where did you? Can't it's a very intense year for them anyway, or sure. Or, or, or eight, eight to nine months or whatever it is of preparation and it's, it's too much.

And so this idea of, um, not really journeying with them, but throwing them on a conveyor belt or putting 'em into a process and then out there go. Yeah. And so

at my previous parish, I had a, a couple from another parish approach. Me and their marriage prep was comprised of read COSTI canoe, be this document from 1931 read, uh, familiars consortium.

Beautiful. But, but essentially read, read these three people documents, uh, and if you print them all out there, it's, you know, like hundreds, a hundred and something pages. um, which that's thick and you gotta be a little trained to read, uh, documents. You can't just pick one up. Um, cuz they all connect to each other in, in a web and no one had been talking with them about their communication.

It was, do you go to Sunday mass mm-hmm it was, do you do, do you, you know, it was kind of checkbox Catholicism mm-hmm on the spiritual

end of things primarily, right? Uh, yeah, yeah, no human level, which is uh, where I see marriages falling apart. It's like the human

level stuff. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so I, they, you know, they had heard that I meet with couples and they're like, father, would you meet with us?

And again, you know, busy, but. , that's not the narrative I wanna live out of. And so, um, it's not just kind of reading theology. It's not just, yeah, there is a process. Uh, we do want them to be informed of their consent and things like that. Sure. Uh, but also to walk, to walk alongside them. Okay.

Yeah. And so that's, that's where it is.

And, um, and failing to have that relationship. Right. Because if, you know, we, the next question is what can we do better? Is that idea of community mm-hmm and generally Catholics. We're not that great at it. Yeah. Our idea of community on Sunday, Mar

unless there's coffee

and donuts, coffee, donuts . But, but even, you know, during the actual, our time of celebration, maybe we'll give a, a slight smile to someone.

Yeah. And it was great drink COVID right. Cuz we didn't even have to do that cuz we had masks on and so the idea of community, right. Um, is, is how can we, uh, I think we're failing on that as well. Generally I know this, some parishes always and a lot of church communities are very intentional about it, but I think overall it's.

Catholic

thing. Yeah, no, I would agree with that. It is sad along those lines. I'm curious. I wanna hone in on people who come from broken families in particular. So you have people in your marriage prep, or maybe one or both of the, uh, fiances that come from a broken family. I'm curious, like what, what can we do to better help them, um, in their marriage prep so that they have these successful marriages?

Cuz one of the things that we see so often is that they end up repeating the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in their own lives and so sad. So obviously we wanna help them, uh, prevent them from going down that path. But we also want them to thrive and have really beautiful marriages. So what can we do for, what do you think we can do for those people in particular, who come from broken families when they're going through marriage?

I'd say, um, one of the processes by which I was formed in, in seminary. Um, we have a great seminary here St. John Biani. Yeah. In my seven years throughout it, uh, we start with a spirituality year and it's a year of no classes. Uh, sorry. We take classes. There's no grades. So the type a, you know, go-geters, they're foiled cuz now they have to learn for the sake of learning.

Yeah. As opposed to kind of performing right. Huh? Uh there's no, um, we don't have phones, radio, anything. Right. So no technology and it, and it, it, it takes us out of our element and then this threefold process that they, that they gave us, which is both for the year and for the duration of our time in seminaries, self-knowledge, self-acceptance self gift in light of the Lord.

Well, right. So it's not just making myself better so that I can do better so that I can be better so that, you know, as if I can get kingdom of heaven points that way. But instead. do I understand, uh, where I came from, the factors in my life, the Ignatian way is be aware, understand, take action. Mm-hmm so they're very similar.

And so just having an awareness of what's my relationship with my dad mm-hmm and then bringing my, my spouse, my future spouse into that. Mm. Um, cuz they're gonna be together in the same room for Thanksgiving at some point. Right. So, so be aware or, or self knowledge, right. That's why we have in the life of the church, the exam in prayer, which is not just for, you know, listing your sins.

So you can go to confession and, uh, and do that. But understanding who I am in light of the Lord, my weaknesses, my difficulties. so that I can invite my fiance in further, uh, into my life. Mm-hmm , uh, and to be a part, a mechanism of my own healing, not just behavior management, but so that I have an interior freedom when I'm around someone who reminds me of my mom or dad when at a very broken time in our family life.

Right. Mm-hmm that, that, uh, the freedom of, um, of just being me with, uh, with deficiencies mm-hmm yeah, that that'd be one thing I would pause it. Okay.

yeah. And that's I, even the language that we use when we speak about love a lot in the church mm-hmm and when we come from broken families, that idea of what love actually is.

Um, and so trying to go even deeper into that and to, and so love is, um, being able to seek the good of the other as the church would say, but how do I do it in my brokenness? How do I, uh, as a fallen person and, and moving away from. the idea of what I think perfection and his love, but, um, working towards that, um, I'm gonna make these steps today.

Mm-hmm , but I know I, I I'm far from it, but, um, and the more, and I think the other thing father was touching on, um, is the more that I'm able to be vulnerable. Um, the more the other person can love me. Mm-hmm right. The more the other person knows about me and my brokenness, the more than they can actually love me.

And often we operate out of fear. Sure. Because we've come from broken families and we've whatever, you know, um, we try to manage our parents and that didn't work out and those kind of things. And, and so I need to try and manage what I'm doing here, but rather than just being vulnerable towards the other person, which does require a lot of human.

skill building in a way. Yeah. So that I can have that muscle memory to say, look, I'm really frustrated today, you know? Yeah. And, um, and in this situation and, um, and not, and, and, and not expect a backlash, but, uh, for the other person to receive what you are saying as well, you know, um, yeah, cuz that's where, you know, the term escalation or arguments is where somebody said, oh, I'm just feeling really annoyed when you, when you win, when you said that and that immediately straightaway gets the heckles up and yeah.

Rather than saying, oh, okay. So what, instead of the skill of maybe paraphrasing what I hear or something like that. And uh, so it, and, but it's actually learning what love is for us as a couple mm-hmm because it coming from a broken culture, a broken family it's is very confusing. And you know, I remember hearing a story and, um, you know, somebody came from extremely abusive, uh, family and, and talking about love was the opposite of what.

You know, even the remote thought, you know, uh, what love was. And so being able to think, well, this is actually how you're called to live in and it's okay. It's okay for you. Uh, and you are worth it. Mm-hmm right. And all this stuff. And just to say, you know, that I can be this with this other person mm-hmm and it, it takes, it's a skill.

Like we grow in that idea of communication. It's not, you know, as a, as a deacon or a priest, it's not the idea of spirit, you know? Um, it's just not a SP spirit thing, but it's a, it's a training ground where we can become more spiritual, so to speak. Mm-hmm sure. Yeah. so to speak. Sure. Yeah. So it's that idea of about knowing who I am growing and who I am so that I can be who I am for, for someone

else.

So good. Thank you. It's funny when you were mentioning, um, you know, you said the word frustrated, that's one of two words that I ban in my office. uh, frustrated and interesting. Cause those are two words that we as Americans tend to hide behind. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and you know, so a couple will come in and be like, well, I went to his home, uh, met his parents and it was really interesting.

and then they'll move on and almost always that's, there's something negative going on. Yeah. It's like, great. Do you have the vulnerability to voice your frictional points of contact with your future mother or father-in-law mm-hmm with the one whom you love, who is supposed to be one of the safest places for your heart to reside that relationship hundred percent.

And so we jump, I jump on those two words, interesting or, or frustrated and say, awesome. Beautiful. I think I know what you're saying. And then I reach into the drawer and I pull out an emotion chart. Nice. So if you're at home listening, you can just Google emotion chart, PDF, and there'll be a number of good ones that come up and then you.

pick two or three other words that point to cuz again, entering into the vulnerability of this is the reality of your family. And this is how I feel mm-hmm and there's no truth that could come up in a relationship. That's going to just like break it off just because I feel a certain way. Yeah. Yeah. It's an unwillingness for you to receive my feelings or what comes up in me or the reactions or it's an unwillingness for me to share them and then, you know, 20 years of bottling and at some point that thing's gonna explode.

Yeah. Right. So that's the other kind of, that's the, the part of marriage prep where it's, doesn't matter if you're from a broken family or a great family, there's going to be pinch points. There's gonna be pain points. Do you have in confidence and trust the ability to vocalize that, uh, to share that in intimacy because there's a verbal intimacy, which isn't always just poetry and flowers.

Interesting. .

Yeah, no, that's so good. I, yeah, those human skills are so big. That's definitely where I think a lot of people from broken families are lacking and you're right too, that even if you come from an intact family, you can be lacking in a lot of these skills. But I know, um, for me, learning to navigate conflict was just so difficult.

Cause I saw it handled so poorly in my family mm-hmm so I had no idea how to go about it. I maybe picked up some things along the way that I should be doing, but it's so different when you're in the amids of a maybe heated argument. And how do you still be respectful and get your point across, but you know, still love the person that you're engaging with.

So th there's a lot there, but those human skills I think are so needed. And one of the most helpful things, um, for me, was just seeing, spending time with like really beautiful marriages, like really healthy marriages. And that's something that I talk about a lot, something that I'm a huge proponent of is like, if you know a marriage couple that.

Has a really beautiful marriage, like go have dinner with them, like help 'em around, help 'em out around the house. Like just kind of soak in the beauty of their family. And, uh, that's been beyond healing for me. So in the last few minutes that we have together, just wanna get your advice. So what, what advice, what encouragement would you give to, uh, leaders of marriage prep who are listening right now, uh, who want to improve their marriage prep programs?

Deacon, we'll start with

you.

So I, I think the biggest thing at the moment we are living in a world that is very, very different from maybe where the leaders have come from. And I think this idea of relationship is, is really needs to be fostered. Now, if you are gonna engage with a couple, um, who are wanting to be married, is do I have the, um, the team or, or the availability to, to journey and walk with this couple mm-hmm, not to the date of their marriage, but in the, into their marriage as well.

And so this idea of am I gonna journey with them so that we can share, you know, all the things that we need to share with them, whatever protocol there is, um, that is established, but this idea of I can be with you, right. That idea of relationship. And then the other thing of course is, as I mentioned before, was how can we really encourage community mm-hmm right.

This idea of, um, as a young married couple or a newly weird couple regard, regardless of their age, am I able to be in a, um, Context or a supportive community where I can be vulnerable as well, to a certain extent, you know, and, and share the hardships that I'm dealing with and, and also understand that people are, uh, experience probably experiencing them as well.

So that idea of relationship and journey I think is really important rather than the convey about, of, um, analogy of popping them on and seeing them later.

Yeah, no. So good father and say it's over theologizing and over psychologizing amen. um, it's not all God, and it's not all, I don't know. Sigmund Freud, right?

Yeah. Anyone on the Myers Briggs can marry anyone else on the Myers Briggs. There is no test, right? That's why the focus inventory is an inventory. There is no test that can guarantee anything. Mm-hmm . And so I think some marriage prep. Uh, retreats or people involved with marriage prep can say, gosh, well, I, I, they get uncomfortable with the Jesus part.

And so they go all communication or they go all self-help relational, self-help whatever. And they become experts in this isn't and that isn't and codependency and whatever else as if there is a book or a psychological framework or structured, that's just gonna solve humanity or brokenness an algorithm.

An exa. Yeah. Thank you. That'd be nice. And so we don't need to be solved. We need to be saved by Jesus, but at the same time, it's not all, God, God respects our free will. God respects our very poor decisions, but he'll always rush to our aid. And so I think for those involved in marriage prep, Not just making it all about prayer.

Although I don't, I haven't seen it to be too much all about prayer. Mm-hmm um, maybe sometimes all about just theology, theology, you know, here's, I've seen that. Yeah, really intense, um, you know, theological terms and, and, you know, get that memorized it in your head mm-hmm but for what right. What we want is the couple, to be able to say, Jesus, we need you spouse.

I need you, others. I need you mm-hmm . And to ha to just sit there in that, in that vulnerability. And so that may have been to the thing that we started about the, the Steubenville divorce rate. It, there could be a supposition that, that God's just gonna save my marriage as opposed to no, God may work through mediaries that he's put in place to draw me into greater vulnerability.

Right. Mm-hmm why, why does God just not zap sins away on the spot? Right. I, I go confess my sins straight to God. He mediates through a priest. He mediates through the life of the church because priests can draw somebody's will more efficaciously within the sacrament of confession. It's the difference between saying, well, I know I lie.

And so I'm just gonna tell God and whatever, and then vulnerably saying it to a priest and saying, I lie. And then, and then you run the risk of the priest, maybe asking you about it. Right. And then the vulnerable intimacy of that. Right. So, okay. Where am I going with this? Not over psychologizing or theologizing that, that it's, um, we're trying to draw couples to be able to seek God, to seek each other, to seek others mm-hmm and then trust that God will be involved in it.

Mm-hmm but it's not all him. That's a heresy called occasional where God we're, you know, we're all just kind of puppets in his thing and he's just making everything happen. Mm-hmm right. Uh, God allows things to play out, uh, in his Providence, he guides its course, but he allows us to. mess up at least his plan A's mm-hmm and, uh, but then he always comes to the rescue as well, if we, but seek him.

Hmm,

beautiful. I've heard it said that God feeds the birds, but he doesn't, uh, put the worms in the nest. nice. Like we need to go out and put the work in before I ask you as the final question. Uh, if people wanna reach out to you, maybe they do work in an archdiocese or at a parish, and they're doing marriage prep and they'd love to kind of learn from each of you.

How can they contact you?

So I'm actually on the archdiocese website. Uh, you can contact me at, um, deacon.Coleman@archedin.org G or my no, actually my office number as well. Cuz we wanna have a relationship 3 0 3 7 1 5 3 2 5 9.

We'll put those in the show notes as well. Great. And then my email is father Daniel MPV, denver.org.

That's for most precious blood that's I'm the parish of which I'm pastor father Daniel, M P B denver.org. Thank you

both. And it's just been such a pleasure sitting with you. The final question, you guys get the final word on this, uh, father, we'll start with you. What advice would you give to that couple listening right now?

Cause there's a lot of couples listening to this, um, who maybe sees marriage prep as kind of this like necessary thing, this checklist, like how can, what would you encourage them to do in order to like really invest in it?

Mm yeah. Yeah. So just like I talked about, we can have a narrative of priests are busy.

We can also have a narrative that paperwork is inherently bad or checklists are inherently bad. Mm. They can be misunderstood or misused. But behind every paper, uh, within most paperwork is actually a, a really important reality. And the reason it's been turned into a form, or the reason it's been turned into something is there's some important conversation that ought to happen within that.

Right? And so you have this, the MB form for us that, that parents have to testify that their, their kids are marrying freely and that they haven't been married before. And it can be a little bit of a hassle, right? You, especially non-Catholic parents are supposed to go and, um, get this for, bring it to a priest.

And so, you know, I just had this the other day, a non-practicing unbaptized brother of a guy who's gonna marry a Catholic, you know, came to my church and said, Hey, I need this form signed. And it was just a really good five minute conversation to say, okay, is your brother marrying freely? What's the relationship like.

Has, you know, has he been married before? Good. He hasn't. Okay. He's free to marry, but is he doing so freely? Right? Mm-hmm and then I can kind of insert truths into this guy's life that he can be there for his brother, not just looking good and wedding photos, but actually being present to his brother's marriage.

And so there's, there's a couple ways of going about forms. You can just sign it and say, this is a hassle, or you can say, why does the church ask me to do this? Why does the church ask me to take this inventory? Why does the church ask me to, to do NFP? Why does the church, why does the church wanna know all these details for the sake of love?

because love is the reason for which we do anything. And sometimes we forget that. And so there, marriage prep process is not a bunch of hoops to jump through behind every form behind every piece of paper is an important conversation. And just because that important conversation doesn't get tactfully had doesn't mean the church is just like feeding off of paper and trying to force people to do stuff.

Yeah. And, uh, even segueing off that, um, first to leaders, right. Um, who are gonna be welcoming, this is to welcome the couples, right? Cause often when we talk about forms and all this, ah, so to actually welcome and take time to welcome them and then receive them and, and often couples are put off by that by, by, you know, by.

Picking up the phone and they get someone who is okay, what, what do you want? Um, and so for couples, I, I see this as a time, if you are, I don't think anybody has, uh, a plan in themselves today, you know, in three to five years, we're, we'll, we're gonna, re-look at this we'll reassess, you know, do the pros and cons.

And typically when a couple is wanting to get married, they're in it for life. Right. Um, even though all the, all of the stuff that we've talked about, so what I encourage couples to do, and especially if you are a couple of faith is to pray together, but I dunno how to figure it out or Google it. How can I pray with my spouse?

I'm pretty sure there's something on there. Um, and then the other thing, if you are a person of faith, and if you're Catholic, I, I, I say go to church, right. Go and, and, and to, but I say, don't just go, I want you to go meet someone. Right. And that's the person of Jesus Christ. Um, and I also say that I, and try and find out father's middle name.

right. Cuz you have to have a conversation cuz you can't Google that. And so it's, it's, it's those kind of little things, but, and also to be part of the seek now to be part of the community, like try and engage yourself, if you're able to whatever gifts they have. And then the last one is, is, um, are, are you choosing to be faithful to each other?

Of course, of course. Are you able to practice that now? Right. Cuz faithfulness is uh, more unfaithful as we say is I, I just say, quite frankly, it's having sex with someone who's not your husband or your wife and you don't wanna be in the practice of that before you're married, right. It's not a habit to have.

And so I encourage 'em to be faithful. So taking that time to step away, even what culture is saying today, but step away and say, can we as a couple, not engage in sexual activity or I say any genital activity, cuz you have to be pretty specific. This, this idea of can I truly love this other person in this way?

Because in doing those things, three things often helps him to grow into a deeper intimacy, uh, as well.

Yeah, it's not that the church is against a bunch of stuff. We're for a bunch of stuff. Mm love. Especially,

thanks so much for listening to the end. I know that was a long conversation, but if you wanna learn more about some of the things we talked about, like natural family planning, we've linked two resources in the show notes. One is a booklet called pure intimacy in the other is a talk called green sex.

Both are excellent. And I highly recommend that you check them out. And if you're curious about learning how to pray, we've linked a few resources in the show notes as well. Some YouTube videos and books to help you on that topic. Now, if you want practical tips on how to build a great marriage, we have a free guide for you because we all desire loved it last.

But if we're honest, most of us don't know how to build this. Especially if we come from broken families and to make matters worse, we're often discouraged by the prevalence of divorce and we fear that our own marriage will end that way again, especially if we saw our parents' marriage fall apart. In this practical guide for singles and couples, we offer a roadmap for love.

The guide contains seven practical tips to build a thriving and divorce proof marriage based on marriage, research time, tested couples and wisdom from Christianity. And so in addition to the written guide, you're actually gonna receive a free 60 minute talk on the same topic. So if you wanna get the guide and the bonus talk, just go to restored ministry.com/marriage.

Again, restored ministry ministry, singular.com/marriage. Just enter your name and your email, and we'll send you the PDF guide and the talk again. That's restored ministry.com/marriage. Or just click the link in the show notes. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 70.

Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful for you. Feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

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Restored creates content that gives teens and young adults the tools and advice they need to cope and heal after the trauma of their parents’ divorce or separation, so they can feel whole again.

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