#067: Breaking the Cycle of Dysfunction in Your Marriage | Pierre & Maria Lareau

If you’re from a broken family, becoming independent and breaking the cycle can be extremely attractive. It certainly was for my guests, a married couple where both spouses from a broken family.

They share what happened in their families, how it’s affected them, their marriage, and even their kids. We also discuss:

• Why one of their mentors encouraged them to begin counseling as a dating couple

• The questions their kids have about their divorced grandparents

• How our parents often compete for our loyalty

• Why beating a victim mentality is so freeing

• One thing that helped them deal with the dysfunction in their families

If you come from a broken family and you’re headed toward marriage, this episode is for you.

Tell us how Restored has helped you

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• Episode 44: Practical Tips for Becoming a Great Parent | Mike & Alicia Hernon

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

For a lot of us from broken families, especially those of us still living at home in the dysfunction, becoming independent and breaking the cycle can be extremely attractive. And that was absolutely true for my guests today, who happened to be a married couple where both spouses come from a broken family, they've actually been long time friends of mine.

I saw both of their parents' marriages and families fall apart. And each of them, their families and their siblings included were a big part of the motivation for this podcast and the ministry behind it. And so in this episode, they share what happened in their families, how it's affected them personally and affected their marriage and even their kids.

We also discuss why one of their mentors encouraged them to begin counseling as a dating couple, we talk about the questions their kids have asked about their divorced grandparents. We touched on how our parents often compete for our loyalty. We talk about why beating a victim mentality is so freeing, and then they mention one thing that has helped them deal with the dysfunction in their families.

If you come from a broken family and you're headed toward marriage at some point in your life, this episode is for you very practical and inspiring episode. So keep listening,

welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey. Pelli thanks so much for listening. This is episode 67. My guests today are peer and Maria Lubo. They've been happily married for almost nine years.

PI works in the concrete construction industry. Maria's a stay-at-home mom and a licensed cosmetologist together. They have four beautiful children. They homeschool, they volunteer at their church and additionally, they're expanding their property, learning how to farm and even become self-sufficient.

They enjoy helping others, camping game nights and learning about farming. Before we dive into the conversation, we talk a little bit about God and faith. They're Catholic Christians. And so that's gonna come up in the conversation if that's not your background, if you don't believe in God, we're really happy.

You're here. My challenge to you is this, listen with an open mind. If you, even, if you take the God parts out, there's still so much good stuff in this episode. So listen with an open mind. I guarantee you're gonna benefit from it. Here's my conversation with my friends, pier and Maria

pure and Maria. Welcome to the show. Hi Joey. Hi. It's so good to have you guys. It's been a long time coming. I've wanted to have you for, for a while, so I'm glad we could finally do this. Um, it's always tough to kind of go back in time, cause I've known you guys such a long time to those dark times in our lives.

When things with our families, uh, were especially bad. But I think for everyone listening, it's so helpful. So let's go there. Um, tell me if you would, how old were you guys when your parents separated and divorced? You wanna go first? ladies first ladies first. Okay. I was 16 when my parents separated and filed for divorce and I believe I was 18 when their divorce was finally finalized.

I'm the oldest of four kids. And so at the time the youngest was 11. Yeah, I'm doing my math. Right. all right. The youngest child was 11. and I was the oldest at 16. Yeah. And, uh, I think I was roughly, for me, it's hard to pinpoint, you know, it, it was, it was more of a gradual your parents separated and got back together.

Couple of times. It was, yeah, there was a couple, quite a few times. It was, it was in the late, my late teen years. So it was probably six, you know, 16. And then 17 is when it got really serious. And then I think it wasn't until I was 18 or 19 until it was more finalized. Um, and I also am the oldest of I'm the oldest of five.

And so my younger, my youngest sibling was, oh, gosh, I don't know, 12, 12 years younger than me. So yeah, she was little 4, 5, 6, 6, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Six, six. Yeah. So yeah, no, that makes sense. And you guys are in a particularly difficult world, which I want to get into being the oldest. There's so much that you're, threated into.

I sell that with my other brother as well, just taking over so much responsibility. Like you really shouldn't have to take over just because there's this void when, when mom and dad go separate ways. So, uh, that makes a lot of sense. Uh, if you would share to whatever level you're comfortable, what would happened?

You know, I think that for myself, I, I think that I, I can look back on the stories I've heard for my parents' marriage and like what I witnessed fr from a small age up until the point where they did separate that there were a lot of bad habits established in their marriage and even in their dating relationship before marriage.

And I, I remember my parents fighting a lot growing up. Wasn't uncommon. For them to be, you know, tucked away in dad's office, you know, having a screaming match. But I think what really brought it out was when I became a teenager, you know, a teenager, especially being, um, in high school, they want a little more independence.

They wanna do this, they wanna do that. And my dad was not comfortable with us doing a lot of different things or us spending a lot of time doing different things, um, that my mom wanted us to do. And that controlling aspect really manifested itself. And it wasn't something that I even think, I don't think she realized how bad and how controlling he was until he really saw it being manifested in her children.

Or she really saw it being manifested in her children like that. He's trying to control everything that they do. Him being controlling, kind of opened her eyes. Into what was going on in her marriage. What do you think for yourself? For me? I, I think it was a, it was more of a, it wasn't apparent at the time when it was happening to me and more thinking of it now though, I think, I think it was more of a slow, oh, what's the word?

Degradation, degradation degradation of, um, you know, where, where it was just because my mom, my mom was Catholic or is Catholic, I should say. And my dad is, or was loosely Lutheran. Yeah. Lutheran is what it was. Okay. You know, so to start, you know, to start, there was, there was a serious moral difference and religious difference, religious difference, I should say more so, um, that makes sense, you know, and, and it was kind of two worlds trying to work together.

And, and it was a lot of, of my dad not being there cuz he owns his own owns his own company, runs his own construction company, you know, which in itself is a lot of work. Yeah. But then, you know, it dive him diving into that. And then, you know, my mom trying to step in and, and find the, or fill, fill both the roles bearing himself in his work and, and not being the Catholic role model she wanted you to have.

Yeah. Yeah. And because it was, it was almost, oh, I don't wanna say ironic, but he finally went through R C I a became Catholic, I think in 2006. I remember that. Yeah. And, and then, and then a year later, You know, it was, it was, he was, it just exploded and everything hit the plan, you know, so it was almost like there was an appeasement process and then it was just like, you know what, forget this.

And then everything exploded. And, and then things got worse. There was, there was some cheating on his part and, and it just, it kind of got, I don't know, just, it went from there, you know, and got worse and worse slowly. I think your mom had a little in her mind that if he became Catholic and they solved this religious difference, that that would solve their marital issues.

I don't know if it would solve it, but it, she definitely, she obviously as one spouse would want another spouse to become, you know, in this case, you know, Catholic wants their spouse to be Catholic mm-hmm , you know, so I think, I think there was, there was a great wants. and if not a little bit of a pushiness mm-hmm for that to happen or a, uh, expectation that that would happen mm-hmm and then it was, you know, and then I think my dad finally caved and then stuck through it for about a year and instead, forget this and then just, you know, that was about it.

So, okay. That was kind of, that's kind of the meat of the story as, as, as I remember it, I, I suppose. Yeah. And I know for a lot of us, the memory can always be a little bit like spotty and, and there's reasons for that. But I remember both of your stories cuz I was, you know, not intimately involved, but we were all friends.

Yeah. And PI I remember years in particular cuz we were definitely closer than you and I Maria. And um, I remember your dad becoming Catholic and that was like so good. And. I was, yeah. Just thinking like, wow, this is amazing. Your family seemed like they were, you were in a really good spot. You never know what's under the surface though from the outside, like, right.

But, but, um, and then all of a sudden, like, yeah, almost in the blink of an eye, it was like, oh, and now everything's falling apart. And the crazy thing was, there were a lot of families who we knew at the time who were going through some similar, maybe it wasn't like at the exact same time, but within years of each other, you know, it seemed like marriages were just falling apart.

Um, and then the kids obviously had to deal with the, the fallout, which we know intimately and especially looking at our siblings and seeing how they deal with it. It's it's tragic. So, yeah, definitely. That's interesting how each sibling kind of deals with it different. That's how I, I see it. Like my, my four sibling or me and my three siblings.

We have all dealt with it so differently. I see it with his siblings. Like not, not, not one reaction is. The same as the other and where you are in the family line above oldest or middle child, or second to youngest or youngest definitely seems to like play a little bit of a part in it. Yeah. If you could summarize that quickly, what would you say?

And I know it varies by person, like you said, but I'm just curious, like what have you seen the difference in both of your siblings handling the breakdown, your families? Oh gosh. just quickly just in like 30 seconds

novels on this, but yeah. Yeah. and you don't need to divulge, you know, big things about their siblings, but I'm just curious. Cause I think, yeah, I think it's, I think it's more. The higher in the, in the sibling hierarchy, you are, I think there's more responsibility put on you and the lower you are. There's more mooching off both parents.

Well, I wasn't gonna say that ness is the, the more the parents are gonna try and spoil you to try and get you to like them. But the higher you are in the hierarchy, the more you are going to, the more the parents are gonna want you to fulfill the other parent's role. Wow. I, I think that, or the missing parents' role, I should say, depending on how young the child is, I don't know.

What I've kind of noticed is in some ways, Some children have this idea of, okay, well what, what can mom give me? And, and what can dad give me? And who's gonna give me what, and what can I get? Who can I get the most from? I mean, that, that comes from just a normal functioning family.

functioning family should have the United front. The parents. Yes. Yes. But they still, that doesn't doesn't mean they're not gonna try. They might try. They might try. But in this situation they can do, dad will let me do this, but mom won't. So I'll do this at dad's or mom will give me this, but dad would never.

So I'll ask mom for that. Mm-hmm yeah. Or it's exponentially worse. And I'd agree with that. Like the higher you are and the hierarchy, the more sort of responsibility you have. I feel like for myself being the oldest, I, I wouldn't say I was leading my siblings in any way, but. They did look to me like, what are you gonna do about this?

And my mom definitely looked to me like, what should I do next? And we both were really lucky when we entered our relationship, that we had a really awesome priest recommend that we both see a counselor mm-hmm independently, independently. Yeah. And not together because we didn't, he, he saw both of our divorced family situations and he was like, you do not wanna bring these bad habits into your relationship and you do need to, and you do wanna deal with this before getting into a marriage.

And while you're discerning marriage as a vocation or, and religious life as a vocation mm-hmm and he recommended, we see the same counselor, but separately. So we did, he saw the counselor and I saw the counselor separately. And then when we did go. On to get engaged, we would go and he would have a half session with the counselor and I would have a half session with the counselor.

And then we would have, we want a whole session together as a couple on the, on the same day, we'd go together. He'd be by himself for half hour. I'd be by myself for half an hour and then we'd have an hour together and then we'd get lunch. It was like a weird date. Yeah. like a depressing day. No, but super helpful.

Wow. Wow. Wow. That's amazing. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So good. Yeah. Yeah. It was really good. And it definitely helped us recognize pitfalls and red flags and bad habits as they would pop up. And absolutely. Um, and it would help us work through that or even just like, how do we navigate being engaged with these divorced parents?

Okay. Now, how do we navigate being married with these divorced parents and how do we navigate. Having kids and throwing parties and they're do we invite both of them there and how do we navigate holidays and set boundaries and yeah. Yeah. It was something totally necessary. Especially also for us being married young, we were like, what are we doing?

yeah. Yes. Cause those things are hard to do in normal parent situations, setting boundaries and figuring out those things, but let alone, okay. Now we have our kids four. Now we have, and there's four grandparents, four independent to like rotate. Um, yeah, we did, we did one Easter. We did four Easters in, in the same day and I think I wanted to die.

Yeah. We were like, we're never, ever doing this again. Some things unfortunately are just trial and error, like yeah, yeah. Learning the hard. No, that's so good. Peter. I remember you advising that. We've put that in some of our content. Um, and I mentioned you saying that don't do it all in one day. good.

Practical credit. The worst thing possibly do, and I can attest to that. Cause it it's it's and that's, that's the big thing that was, I think that's a big thing and we still struggle a little bit with that is setting boundaries, you know, with, with everything that, you know, trying to say, okay, this is how it is.

And now our parents, you know, the parents are divorced, they've all got an alled. So technically they're free to see other people date and see other people and it's become more of, uh, attention because, because it's okay. My dad's, you know, dating a girl and oh, now kid's birthday who invite dad? And can he bring his, he bring his girlfriend, you know, so it's, it's.

It's a lot more tension in setting boundaries and it, and it, you know, kind of works all different ways and yeah, it never ends unfortu. No, it doesn't, it, it sucks, but it never ends, but it does get better. That's for sure. It's become a lot easier to make these decisions, but, but you had to work through all that.

And I think that's good for any parents listening right now. You know, we're not hitting on our parents, but I've seen the same thing in my life, too. Those normal situations that can be challenging. And over themselves, like you guys said become exponentially more difficult because there's all these people to please.

And then you have to deal with whose side, you know, you might be appear to be, um, on, and there's just so much messiness. Then you add yeah. Another partner into the situation like boyfriend, girlfriend, it just so such a difficult situation. So many parents listening who may be considering getting a divorce.

I think this conversation I hope is really insightful in saying not only how it will maybe affect your kids in the short term immediately following the separation divorce, but for years to come, this doesn't end. And that's the, your grand babies. Yeah. That's, that's something we've luckily been able is.

Sorry not to cut you off. Sorry, go. . No, you're good. But we've luckily narrow, narrowly avoided the conversation. Cause our oldest, our oldest is seven he's he's gonna turn eight. Yes, little baby, but we've narrowly avoided, you know, the, the conversation. Why does grandpa live at one house? Why does grandma live at the other house?

You know? Right. Actually, no, that's been a huge thing for us having, so we have four children, um, ages eight to one years. Three boys. And one girl, the girl is six years old and the boy is almost eight, a four year old boy and a one year old boy. But anyway, one thing that we have not really used the word divorce with them, but it's just been so crazy for us to see them and their perception of this because they know all of our parents in some sort of context, they're very close with their grandmas.

They know his dad really well. I'm estranged from my dad. So they know who he is. They've seen him, but they don't really have a relationship with him. But anyway, they, they know that these grandparents don't all live together. And so at one point maybe a year ago, half a year ago, we were sitting at dinner.

Oh yeah. And all of a sudden, our six year old daughter just goes, why does Papa referring to his dad? Why does he live in this house? And Grammy lives in that house? Mm. Yeah. And we just kinda looked at each other like, oh, okay. We knew this conversation. Why this came outta the blue, what did we say?

Completely out of the blue. Yeah. And without even skipping a beat, our oldest boy chimes in and he goes, oh, their kids are grown up now. So they, so one of them lives in this house and the other one lives in a different house. since their kids are grown up. Wow. And he just assumed like it's. Yeah. Right.

Okay. This is normal. When you're, when your kids grow up, you don't live together anymore. That was his like perception. His reality of the situation. Wow. Our six year old daughter, she's just like, oh, well then they aren't married. And he's like, no, they are married. They just live in different houses. Cuz their kids are grown.

And we had to like stop him and just be like, whoa, whoa, okay. Like, we want you to know that is not normal moms and dads don't live in separate houses once their kids are grown up. That is not a normal thing. That's not the ideal. Yeah. And, and that's not gonna happen with us. Mm-hmm , that would becoming the normal, but it is not ideal that like, that shouldn't be normal for portraying to them.

And that to try to make them feel secure, like this happened to your grandparents, but this is not gonna happen to your parents. Like, we don't want them to be scared that this is like their future. Yeah. Cuz that's, that's that's the hard part is how do you, how do you tell your kids? Okay, this happened.

Here's your, your grandparents. They got to love. Do you love and you admire. Yes. And. And they, they, they got married, they had children and then they, all of a sudden stopped loving each other or they stopped being married. Right. And they stopped being married. That's how, that's how the child was gonna look at it.

Right. Okay. They must not love each other anymore. They must was like, yeah. Yeah. And then they, so they separated and then they, then the kid's gonna sit there and be like, well, what happens if mom and dad separate and leave and or they stop, they just stop loving each other. Yeah. And then what happens, child mind is so simple, you know?

And then they go, well, what happens if mom stops loving me? Which is the same thing as a child's divorce is, I mean, a grandchild of divorce is the same, almost the same thought process. Yeah. Oh grandma and grandpa don't love each other. Why, what does that mean? That mom's gonna love me anymore. Mm. You know, which is a great issue that, that.

People children of divorce go through. Yeah. And so, so it's, it's to try and, and tell them, no, you know, first off we love grandma. We love grandpa, but their actions were not ideal and that's not the way it's supposed to. That's the way that God ordered it. Yes. It's not the way that God ordered it and that you're supposed to stay together and that we, and reassure them that that's not gonna happen to them.

That we, as their parents is not gonna happen to them. Yeah. And nor should it wow. In the symbols of terms. Yeah. Because yeah, this is, this is one thing, you know, I heard a long time ago is that, you know, when, when talking to a child with either divorce or, or even, you know, And where do babies come from or whatever mm-hmm is to literally try and give the child the least amount of information on, on to stats by their, their thirst, for the knowledge yes.

On these grand huge complex issues. We heard this on another podcast, actually domestic family parenting podcast. Yes. Put a plugin for them, cuz that is, that is a fabulous podcast. Yeah. Second to yours, obviously. no, Michael, they actually came on this podcast a while. Did they? I don't remember the episode number offhand, but uh, yeah, no, they're great.

Oh, I'm gonna look podcast number now. That's yeah. So, but yeah, they, you know, it was, it was to give them, give the child the simplest terms to satisfy their, satisfy their curiosity and, and, and that's pretty much what we ended up doing. And it was just trying to break it down. The simplest of terms and be like, look, this is, this is, this is what's right.

That is what's wrong. Mm-hmm and, and that's all you can really do because they can't understand complex situations. Right? Like that. No, I admire you guys for handling that. And Marie, you mentioned it, uh, child's thinking isn't black and white and it's so difficult to explain the nuances of a situation like that.

Mm-hmm in a way, I think kids think, see things more clearly than we do, and yeah. But what, what a difficult way, like what a difficult conversation to have that you weren't even prepared for, just to finish that this off for people listening, especially who might be, uh, wanting to get married one day or engaged or married, newly married and soon becoming parents, or maybe new parents wherever they're at in that, uh, whole timeline.

I'm just curious, how would you maybe handle that conversation a little bit differently? Um, was there anything that you maybe wish you would've said looking back at it now? Cuz I know hindsight's 2020 always. Um, I think you guys sounded really well by the way, but I just, like, that's a tough conversation to have.

I probably, I probably would've prepared for it a little better. Yeah. Which is would've we, we have discussed, oh my one day, we're gonna have to talk to about this, like dreading that day. Like that was kind of the extent of the conversation. Yeah. So maybe have an idea in mind and don't wing it like we did, but we did give them as little information as possible.

Just saying like, we want you to know this is not the way it normally will be. This is not how it will be with us. Uh, they were married, they are not married anymore. Then there was a lot of questions of like, how do you get unmarried? And we were like, well, in the simplest of terms, we kind of told them being Catholic and what we believe on as marriage, as a sacrament, just that they did not know.

Their catechism and their faith enough to the extent that their marriage was not valid and they are no longer married and they were not married completely in God's eyes. And that just not even another question, that was it. They're like, okay. Yeah. And back to talking about squirrels outside, like that was it like onto the next thing um, like didn't skip a beat and every, so often as something comes up, we just kind of give them as little nuggets of information, tiniest, tiniest amounts of information as possible.

I, I think it only came up maybe once after that. And then it just kinda, it just kind of set. They really don't. They don't really, we emphasize. They are not, not living in the same house because they're adult children are adults. Like their children have grown up. We, when you guys grow up, your mom and dad will still live in the same house.

Yeah. I think, I think, I think that's the biggest thing is that you can, if you can portray anything, make them feel safe, about's re reassurance their environment. Yeah. You know, because you wanna make sure that they know that this is, this is a family that is gonna stick together forever and it's worth being a part of yeah.

No matter what. Mm-hmm mm-hmm one thing I've noticed with Lucy is she gets so happy when she physically sees bridge. And I together just like when we're like getting each other a hug and, and you probably notice that with your kids too, it's so beautiful. Right. And I think that's ultimately what kids want is we just want our parents to be together.

Obviously we don't want all the fighting intention and all that stuff, but if we can snap our fingers and get what we want, we want our families to be whole, we'd want 'em to be together. Right. And I know, I know my siblings and I. Wanted that so much. So I think it's so beautiful that you reassured them that, yeah, mommy and daddy, we're not going anywhere.

We're not gonna be like grandma and grandpa. And, um, this is different and that, you know, I'm sure that's still hard for a kid to wrap their head around perhaps. But, um, but I think you, you guys, it sounds like you're doing all the right things. So this is really good advice. We obviously haven't had that conversation with Lucy yet.

Um but, uh, at some, at some point of will have I pray, you have many years before you have to have a conversation. Yeah, no, a hundred percent. It's it's not an easy one. And man, the, I know a lot of people just talking to someone this weekend and they were saying, I think their dad in particular has been married like six times.

It's like, boy, how, how do you explain that one? You know? So we won't go down that rabbit hole, but, um, I wanna shift gears a little bit to absolutely. So just the way in which you guys were affected, you've already mentioned a lot, but anything else that you would add in terms of how both of you were personally affected?

Um, and then the next stop is gonna be your relationship, but start personally, like, how were you affected by all of this? In addition to what you've already mentioned? I think I felt the sense that I had to be independent and I had to figure out a little more of how I was gonna offend for myself. And I don't know if you Joey have noticed this being with older kids, more like I was talking about younger kids trying to mooch off their parents.

Like, what can I get from this one? What can I get from that one? I felt, uh, this sense of, I don't want help from either of these people or as little help as possible that I can manage. Um, what can I do to get myself out of the situation? And I. Was looking at, okay, what do I want for a career? What do I want, how can I go to college?

And how can I not rely on them financially to do this? And so that's actually how I end up getting my cosmetology license, because I was like, I wanna go away to college and I wanna have a career and get away from these people and not be financially reliant on them. And I don't wanna be financially reliant on them for college either.

So how, what can I do to make more money to pay for college? And that's why I went to cosmetology school so that I could make more money to pay for college. Yeah. And it turns out that it paid off because in 2020, our kids had good haircuts as opposed to every other home home haircut. and you got good haircuts too.

I did too. I got good haircuts too. I'm jealous. So I think like some people have the fight or flight response and. My response was, I'm gonna fight for myself to not ever be in this situation again. And I remember just personally praying in my personal prayer life, a lot of prayer of God, I've dealt with this as a child and as an adolescent, and it's so miserable and it's so awful.

And I, I don't envy my parents and this terrible pain and suffering and hell that they're going through. And please spare me of this as an adult. I lived it as a child and I don't wanna deal with it as an adult. And so it was like a, it was a combination of fight and flight. It was a fight for me, myself.

I'm going to not ever be in this situation personally. Uh, and I'm gonna pray and do everything in my physical power. And I also wanna get away from this situation and not be stuck in this situation. Whereas like, do I, did I wanna help my mom? Did I wanna help my dad? Did I wanna help my siblings? Yes. Did I wanna try to maintain a relationship with them?

Yes, but I didn't wanna be dependent on that. And if things went south or sour, I wanted to have an out. It feels like for survival, doesn't Maria. And we've seen that as a trend too. It's like, we typically have this fierce independence as people who come from broken families and perhaps it veers more towards the older ones, but I've seen it in younger ones too, but we just, for sure, we don't wanna rely on anyone.

And that makes relationships really difficult, which we'll get to in the second here. But I, uh, I certainly still battle with this, to this day in my own marriage and, you know, definitely have grown a lot and made a lot of ground, but that's still kind of my default too, because I think so often what happens and we've said this before in this podcast, but, uh, when our families fall apart, we feel like we have nothing to fall back on.

And so we kind of take on this attitude like, well, no, one's got my back, so I better have my own back. I better just like figure life out. And if I don't, then that's not even an option. Like if I don't, there's nothing for me. And, uh, and so I totally totally get what you're coming, where you're coming from.

Right. Yeah, for sure. And I. . And that was me as a teenager and, you know, going on an older teenager, like getting towards the end of high school and getting towards college. So it's hard for me to think about, okay, what about my brother? Who was 11 mm-hmm you don't really have that option. You can't think of how am I gonna get myself out of the situation?

No, you're 11 years old. Like you're stuck in it. You haven't even made it through high school. You haven't. So, or his younger sister who is six years old. Mm-hmm like, now she's just gonna grow up with this as her normal. Yeah. So in some sense, I considered myself a little bit lucky, like, well, at least I'm older than them.

At least I don't have to go on, but you know, visitation, as long as they do the ability to leave situ the ability to leave the ability to drive well, the physical license to drive a car, whether or not I had a car available to me is a different story, but. Yeah, that pretty much. Yeah, it is a survival. I've kind of realizing how closely our stories are.

Um, at this very moment, but yours was like, I'm just not gonna be around. I, that was, I mean, that was mine. I, I, your coping mechanism, sort of my coping mechanism, you could almost say, I mean, it was cuz I think it was about, I was 17 and it was, there was a big dependence on me to step up and take care of my siblings.

And, and I kind of, I mean, I can't say I've always been the nicest to them, but as an older brother who is, um, but , but I mean, you know, I, you know, when it, when it really, when it really got Harry and the par, you know, with my parents, There was, there was an expectation from, from my parents to step up and more than just being an older brother to almost being a parent, to try and take care of them, like my siblings.

And then, and then I was, it was almost as if I was this, they kind of treated me as this as a friend. They almost tried to, or, or appear, appear where they would. Oh, Hey, you know, your dad's doing this or, oh, your mom's doing this. Or, you know, they really, they, there was a, they were trying to pit me against the other one, you know, which happens.

And I know that happened in your parents a lot too. Is wait, can I just interject to this space? Absolutely. Yes. That in our experience of parents trying to talk negatively about each other to us, That's happened to me. It's happened to him. It probably is something that's fairly normal. I would assume mm-hmm yeah.

The only way that changes is if you put up a boundary. Well, yeah, I was getting there. Oh, I was getting, let me building up to that. The boundary. Oh yeah. Um, you know, and, but my boundary was, I was just, I, I literally, I, I think I was 17 and I just exploded and I was like, I'm done, I'm gone. I don't last hear about this.

And, and you probably remember this, Joey, I pretty much lived up at your house and, and a couple of our other friends for almost six months. I left every weekend. I was gone. Mm-hmm fr I didn't, I did not live at my house on the weekends. I bounced houses. I hung out with friends at every waking moment I possibly can and many sleeping moments.

it's just like, you know, go, go stay somewhere else because the dysfunction was more than I wanted in my life. And so my, you know, COVID mechanism was leave and, and I told him, and, and I still have to, to this day kind of reinforce that boundary, like, look, I, I don't want to hear what you have to say about the other person.

I don't care. Yeah. It doesn't, it's not my, that is not my responsibility. That is not my, that's not my, you know, that's, that's not for me to hear that's even if it's true, it's actually like, even if what the one parent is saying about the other is true, it just leaves such a bad taste in your mouth. I don't wanna hear this.

I don't wanna be dragged down this road. Like don't, don't bring it up. Mm-hmm like, and. And now that you're gonna defend one of the parents when they did something wrong, but it almost gives you this. Like, I don't wanna agree with you even though you're right. Just because this is annoying and this is not fair to me as the child.

You no, it's not to vent it to. And that's what it is. It's, it's not fair to the children, you know, divorce is, is mostly not fair to the children hundred percent and, and it's, it, it, it puts such a strain and it just, it makes me wanna rebel. Like, I wanna just disagree with them just because I know. Right.

Yeah. And it it's makes sense. Yeah. You know, so the, you know, it's, it's, it's too much to pit them against each other because it's not about cuz that's, that's so often I, I I've seen with, I, I think, I think when I, when my family was going through it, I think I knew maybe five or six other families that were going through it at the time.

Yeah, and that's kind of, it was all very similar. And even still, now I talk to other people that, that are either going through a divorce or things like that. And, and so often it's, it's when children are involved, it's, who's the better parent. Mm-hmm , I'm the better parent. No, I'm the better parent and they go back and forth and, oh, I'm gonna give you more.

And I'm gonna, you know, when your mom does this or your dad does that or whatever, it is a little like background, uh, neither of our parents divorces were quote, unquote amicable. If there is such a thing, I know some people are like, oh my parents, they come to parties together and they hang out and they talk and they're like friends now.

Oh no, it's ours are not amicable at all. They can barely be in the same room. Yeah. Far away from each other in the same room. And it's, and it's been a long time, 10, 11, 12, It's been almost 15 years. 13, four. Yeah. It's been, oh my gosh. Wow. you know, so that makes so much sense. And PI, I remember you going through all that and all of us, our whole friend group was worried about, we were, uh, we were worried about you we'd talk about like the situation we were going through.

We saw how it was affecting you. And we were at a point, um, cause my parents was separate when I was 11 and they got back together and then later they divorced. And so, you know, I, I had that reference point, at least. So I knew like, yeah, this really stink this a horrible thing to go through. But yeah, we saw that and we, we were, you know, we're trying to figure out like how, how do we help?

How do we help? And it's such a difficult spot to be in for, for you. Uh, you know, and it makes sense that you kind of, your default was an escape, uh, because it's just too much to bear at times. And Maria, your interaction makes so much sense to me as well. And going back to what you said about. Parents divulging information that we don't need to know.

And some attempt to make us think less of the other parent, that's typically what I've seen happens. And the young people I've talked to, that's typically what goes about, like we, in a workshop, recent workshop we did at Ave Maria university, we were talking about this very topic, how, yeah. There were situations where some of these students, parents were just divulging really inappropriate details about the other parents.

Oh, for sure. And even the marriage that like, they never wanted to know which greatly altered their perspective, not only their one parent, but the other parent as well, and even the marriage altogether. So it can be so, so damaging to just divulge that information. So any parents listening, again, going back to that, like, it does more harm than good.

And if there are situations where you need. Say some sort of truth because maybe things are being twisted so much by the other parent, there has to be like a mature, calm way to do that without getting pulled into this battle, this competition, to be better, like you said, than the other parent. And so, you know, definitely a lot there to talk about you guys hit on so many great points.

I wanna go to your relationship, your marriage, cuz we don't have forever to talk in this episode. how, how, how did you see it particularly play out in the relationship between the two of you? You mentioned that you guys went to counseling, which is amazing way ahead of almost every couple that I've ever heard of.

and so, yeah, I'm just curious, like how did you see this affect your dating relationships and now your own. I mean there's, I mean, don't get me wrong. We're not perfect as much as I would love to believe that. Wait, really? I , I D maybe we shouldn't be doing this podcast episode. This is a condition of the episode that you're perfect.

And you never struggle. Darn. All right. We're gonna have to rethink this, right. Edit that out. Edit that out. Yeah,

no, but I mean, even now, I mean, even being 10, 15 years down the road, I still, you know, I, I still notice things that, that are results of my parents' divorce or, or, or dysfunctional things that even, not even the divorce, just dysfunctional things that my parents did, that I, you know, habits that you pick up or things that you do.

Yeah. Family habits, you know, family habits, you know? Yeah. And. so it's it's but how has it affected us? How has it affected us? I mean, it, it really just, you have to be conscious of it always mm-hmm and you know, a big thing that we have that we've, we've fought about a lot is that, you know, a lot of times, uh, you know, I'll be a jerk and for whatever reason, and then she'll be angry at me for being a jerk.

And so she'll be a jerk back at me. And then we'll both be a jerk it's jerk for tat. Yeah. It's a little tip for tat and start getting into this fighting. And the thing to always remember is, and I think I just said this the other day, I was like, wait, stop, rewind. We love each other. you know, mm-hmm and, and to always go back and remember that we love each other and we're not, you know, anything we do is.

Out of spite, which is what we've seen so much over our lives is that, is that our parents were spiteful at each other. Well, also think that one thing that we personally have had to work on is our communication. Yeah. Being, we both communicate a lot, but sometimes not in the most effective way or not in the way that the other person understands what we're trying to convey.

Or, and I think that we didn't see healthy communication happen. No, we weren't witness to that at all. So the counseling really stad off a lot of potential hazards, so to speak, like any potential bad habits. Because we had this counseling session when we were dating. So we saved off a ton of bad habits when we were dating, we saved off a lot of bad habits being engaged and even being married.

I think we went for the first, like four or five years of our marriage as well. Yeah. We went once a month. Yeah. For about four or five years. Yeah. Into our marriage. And so a total of like seven to eight years of counseling. And finally, she just looked at us and said, go home. yeah, that's beautiful. She's like, I've done all I can.

Yeah. Like when you're not fighting about like, who did, what chore, like then, you know, when you have something more concrete, like come back that's amazing. And not that we're perfect, like you said, but it really, it was finding a good counselor doing the, the footwork in your relationship before even marriage.

And that's huge. Yeah. And discerning, you know, this person, this partner, and if they're right for you and you know, are they gonna really be there for you through sick and thin and yeah. Cause, cause once you get married, you're, you're kind of, I mean, you're really, you're stuck with, you're not kind of stuck.

You are stuck. Well, you're stuck with, well, yeah. I, I, sorry man. Everyone who's not married just really wants to get married right now. And I'm just kidding. well, I mean it is though, but you know, so if, if, but you wanna be good, stuck, like stuck, right? Like where you're stuck. Exactly. This is where I'm going, you know?

So it's, it's, you know, so you wanna figure out you wanna iron out the big wrinkles before, you know, before you can, you know, before you settle down and you get married because cuz if, if you find out. Three years into your marriage. Oh my gosh. There's this huge issue that, oh, he's just this way. And he is never gonna change.

Mm-hmm you wanna find that out while he is dating while you're dating, so you can just walk away with a lot less baggage. Yeah. You know, and, and, and counseling is, I mean, I think every single person in this world should go to counseling with a single person, every single person, we're all nuts. but I, you know, , but at least, you know, at least, you know, going as a couple with an open mind and to find a counselor that pushes you.

Because there's, I I've been to a, a few different ones, you know, that was part of the divorce and all that fun stuff was, oh, go to this counselor, go to that counselor. And there's counselors out there. That'll just tell you what you want to hear or yeah. You know, and then we walk away and you're like, I'm, I'm I feel great.

You know, because I, I, he told me everything and I'm in right. And blah, blah, blah. You know, so to find a counselor that, that pushes you to think, well, what, what could you do? That's better. Even, even, you know, maybe you're no one, no one is a hundred percent in the right. You know, unless you're Jesus Christ.

I mean, that's, that's pretty much it, everybody has, you know, or, or some great Saint or something. But I most average people, especially today, mm-hmm are, have some sort of selfish, ulterior motive, I think. And. and me included. And I think that, I think that, you know, unless you're viewing that and trying to understand, well, okay, what am I trying to get out of this and why, and how can I do this to be more selfless, you know, ESP, when it comes to relationships, you know, anything really, but with relationships to, to, to look at it as, as how can I be more of a selfless person and give myself to my spouse or to my, you know, to my boyfriend or to my significant other, that that would allow me to grow in love for them and in return and holiness and holiness and in return that they, they will see that and, and love me more.

I mean, you know, to find, to find some, a counselor, that'll push you to do something like that is really, I. You know, or, or even a, a spiritual director or, or a, uh, accountability account, not so much a mentor, a mentor. Thank you. Yeah. A mentor, you know, someone to push you further because yeah. You know, let's face it.

We can only be pushed further than we think we are. Yeah. Yeah. And we can always grow more. There, there is no, there is no cap on how much we can grow as a human. Yeah, no, I'm a big believer in that. I, we wouldn't be doing what we're doing here right now, if, if it wasn't and yeah, I, you know, you guys brought up so many good points and a lot of great advice and what you just said.

Yeah. And I, I know just bridge and I, you know, conflict learning to handle conflict, like you said, uh, when our marriage has been especially difficult because, uh, you know, I didn't see that growing up handled well. And, uh, in fact, I saw it handled very horribly. And so that was the example and I was clueless on how to do it the right way, picked up some things along the way that helped, but in such an emotional relationship, which a marriage is like your emotions run high, um, and hot.

Um, it can be really difficult to have that self mastery in the midst of those difficult situations to say the right thing and not hurt the other person, which I mess up. And so. So we've had to learn and, and counseling marriage counseling has been really helpful for us. And, uh, you know, I, one of a few of the tendencies that I've seen in myself, which I'm curious if you guys can relate is, um, just this almost need to defend myself and just almost this need to kind of going back to what we were saying before about.

Feeling so independent or being fiercely independent, feeling the need to just take care of ourselves. Like no one will take care of us. No one will be there for us. Like we just have to do it ourselves. It can very much so feel like survival in the midst of even a, a marriage fight. Yeah. And a lot of times it's just stupid stuff, silly stuff.

I mean, just the other night, it's like we were fighting about something so dumb. It's like, come on and, and thankfully we've gotten to that point. One of the things, one of the concrete girls that we've seen in our marriage is that we get to a point where like, it takes us a shorter and shorter period of time now to recognize that and apologize and reconcile.

I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Have you guys seen that in your marriage? For sure. Yeah. We're like, wait a minute. Like he said, we love each other, right? This is dumb. When we first got married. Fought like cat and dogs. yeah, yeah. No one prepares you for that. I remember we, I remember you made a comment about it and you're like, why are we, we were in a big fight and you were like, why are we always fighting?

And I mean, it was we, and we're, you know, we are. Both. Very, what do you, how do you stubborn? Stubborn? Sure. Come up with a way to say it nicer, but sure. We're stubborn abstinence we're, you know, we're loud and opinionated. Yeah. And so for us, a simple fight, it, you know, could be, you know, a little explosive , but where, you know, quieter people might just, you know, whatever.

Okay. Sure. I think another thing too is , um, we both saw a really bad habit of thinking the one spouse thinking the worst of the other, like mm-hmm , you know, he might have done, you know, he might have left his. Come home with his dirty work boots and kicked them off on the floor and got dirt everywhere.

And I'm like, I just mopped this floor, you know, mm-hmm and obviously this is just a simple example of like, okay, he wasn't doing this to personally offend my perfectly mopped floors but I took my boots off in the garage by the way today. Yeah, good, man. Good man. but me just being like, you have no consideration for me and him being like, this is just me coming home from work and taking off my boots woman, you know um, and that was one of the things I feel like in our marriage, when we went to counseling, when we were married, that our counselor was like, why are you always making the worst to each other?

Yeah, like that was one thing that was routinely brought up until this bad habit was. Even still brutally knocked out of us. Like it's, it's still something that happens, shows up every so often, you know? Right. But thinking the worst of the other person, and when you hear your parents saying the worst of the other parent, it's just something that becomes so habitually ingrained.

And I think it's something also that marriages struggle with anyway. But yeah, when you're, when you've seen it, um, and you've seen, you know, I remember my parents definitely like thinking the worst of each other, um, in a lot of senses or, you know, taking something that someone did not do offensively as this big.

I remember there's been a few times too, where we've noticed in our, or I've come to realize that certain things that my parents did that I thought were normal are not normal. For instance, as a small example, my dad. It was very particular about how my mom spent money. And I remember, you know, going through the McDonald's drive through and her saying, I'm gonna pay with cash.

Don't tell dad McDonald's cause he'll get really mad at me. And one time we were trying to be more frugal, not eat out. And I was really tempted cuz I was out, it was lunchtime and I'm like, I'm just gonna take the kids through the drive through. But here. And I we've made this packed. We're gonna be trying more frugal.

We're not trying not to eat out right now, but I could just pay with cash and I could not tell him. And all of a sudden realizing, like that's such a terrible thing. And then I'm tell my kids, don't tell dad this secret from dad called him crying and being like, I can't believe this. Like, this was like my normal.

And like, I just can't imagine doing this to you. That's just so wrong. It sounds like such a small little dumb thing, but it's just like such a wrong thing to portray to our children and such a wrong thing to do to each other in the smallest of things. Like there's so many bigger things, but like that was like our normal, like hurry up and throw the trash out.

So bury the trash under some other trash. So dad doesn't see the McDonald's wrappers, you know, like, because, so it's been eyeopening too, in a sense of like, I didn't realize how weird and wrong that was. I think people, uh, maybe who don't come from broken families or haven't listened to stories like this, they might think like, what's the big deal, like, come on.

What's the big deal. Mm-hmm and, and, you know, obviously the research is really clear. There's so many stories about this, but the reason that's a big deal is because. And the reason we struggle more in relationships. And again, that's what the research showed. The, the biggest area of our life. That's impacted by the breakdown of our parents' marriage.

And our family is our romantic relationships, particularly our marriages. And the reason is that simple. We learn how to love. We learn how to build relationships and even a marriage within our families. And if we saw bad example of that, it's like going to a bad university to learn, to be an engineer. And then right.

You know, like an aerospace engineer and then being told, okay, build a rocket. It's like build a rocket. We're gonna, we're gonna put some people on this rocket. It's gonna go to space. It's like good luck. Like, so for engineers, I don't wanna be on his rocket. I don't wanna be on his rocket. No, thanks.

exactly. So it's like, we, we literally had this very poor education. Not, not bashing our parents, but it just to be objective and honest, it's like, this is a very poor way to learn how to love, how to build relationships. And we're carrying that with us. And what, you know, researchers have found too, is that once you've formed a habit, that's always in your.

Like that neural pathways alwa it can't be erased. It can't be erased. It could be replaced, but it can't be erased. And that's why PI what you were saying before. It's like this stuff can pop up when it's triggered in certain situations would make yeah. Makes sense. So, um, no, it, that, that's why it's a big deal.

It's like, literally we were school, we got a degree. We were, you know, taught how to build love or, or maybe the lack of in our families. And that, that's why it can be so difficult, even in small situations where we're just have these knee jerk reactions to do something that's ultimately gonna damage the marriage in the family.

Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know. I just wanna say to all the listeners that your parents' divorce while it's always gonna be there, it doesn't get erased. There, there is hope. There was hope in my prayer that, okay, this is not how I'm gonna spend my adult life. There was a lot of don't feel hopeless in the sense of this.

Doesn't have to define you and the rest of your life, and you can still find happiness and you can still go on to have a good marriage like our marriage. Isn't perfect, but I'd say we have a good marriage and we're both very happy. I'm very happy. I'm happy too. and we enjoy our family so much and we feel like it's, in some ways, it, not that divorce is ever a blessing, but we've received the grace of really trying to be so intentional about our marriage and putting a lot of work into it.

I mean, the counseling itself was a lot of work and. Emphasizing always to each other, that divorce is never an option. It's not, it's not the D word. We don't, we don't talk about it. We don't say it. We don't threaten it. It's never, you know, brought up in a fight and we don't even joke about it. Really. We don't joke about it.

It's it's, it's, it's like a cuss word in this house pretty much. Yeah. So good. I love that. No, Maria, thank you for balancing that with hope. I think, you know, we need to do both. We need to see the truth and just acknowledge that, okay. This was really difficult thing to go through, but at this, in the same breath, say what exactly what you said that there's so much hope you can change.

You can't heal. You can grow. That is a possibility mm-hmm a lot of people don't believe that actually, a lot of people have this fixed mindset where they think, well, I'm just am the way I am. I kind of destined to down on the road. That's, that's a, it's a sense of perspective. And to think that, you know, it's a difference of.

Are you going to take the route of the victim mentality? You know, I mean, I, I saw, uh, this, this funny post on Facebook years ago, and it was just a picture of a blank sheet of paper. And it said here's a list of all the things that you're entitled to , you know, and I'm like, that is fricking brilliant because it is, I mean, really think about it.

Yeah. I mean, hundreds of years ago, you know, thousands of years ago, what, what did people do? They, in order to do anything, they had to blood, sweat, and tears to, to live and survive just to survive for God's sakes, you know? And, and now we're, we're living our cushy lives, you know, for a majority of the world.

And we're like, oh my mommy and daddy fight, and this is tough. And I mean, not to, not to lessen, anybody's it, doesn't invalidate people's pain. Yeah. Not to invalidate people's pain because there's pain, but, but it's, but you can rise up from this pain. It's not the worst thing in the world. You know, you're not dying from cancer.

You can get up every day and you can go to work and you can make your life better and, and you can choose not to follow those habits. Yeah. You know, you can choose to set boundaries. Um, yeah. And, and to, to grow and, and become stronger and rise above the issues at hand, some people will struggle with the feeling of worthlessness.

We've definitely seen that in some of our siblings, this feeling of like worthlessness and it's just such a lie. It's just from the, Demonn trying to get his clause into you, whichever way he can. Mm-hmm that you're worthless because. Your parents split up and you weren't worth it to them to, to fix this.

Like you being their child isn't worth it. It is, it is a lie. And then because every person is worth something in the eyes of God and all equally, and yeah, everyone's equally worth and it's, you know, to, to rise above that worthlessness and, and to escape it because if, if you sit there and just continue to wallow it, don't wallow in it.

Yeah. Don't wallow in it. If you continue to wallow it, all it will do is just eat it. You eat at you. And it's just, it's a terrible spiral of, of depression that will only get worse and worse and worse. And, uh, cuz there was, there was a great time. It was quite a, there was a few years that, that I was very severely depressed.

And I don't even know if you know that Joey and, and it was, it was tough. There was a lot of dark thoughts and a lot of big issues that, that I had and I struggled with, and I felt that, you know, I was all alone and well, cuz in some ways you were, I mean, in some ways I was, and like you said earlier, my, we had a, a very good priest friend who was my mentor and spiritual director who helped me see out that.

And then you and you Joey and, and our, our friends helped me a lot too to see beyond that, that there was more than just my pain and suffering, that there was a whole world out there that I could, I can rise above my own issues and to become something greater and better. And, and, and to. In a horrible sense, also learning from our parents' mistakes.

Yeah. Yeah. We're not gonna make this mistake, right. Or that mistake, not, not, not wasting that in so many ways. And man, you guys on some, so many good things. Um, and I think a lot of people listening right now feel that worthlessness and they feel, they struggle with the victim mentality. I know I've been there and uh, there's still tendencies.

They have to fight against. And I think that's one of the biggest things that's just destroying our world right now is that victim mentality. And the reason why people like Jordan Peterson are so popular, cuz they basically speak directly against that, which is amazing. So much good stuff there. I don't wanna cut this short, but I don't wanna keep you guys forever.

I, uh, I did wanna ask you though an important question. Feel free to finish anything you wanted to say there, but then also if your parents were listening right now, what, what would you want them to. Oh, geez. Is this a softball question? oh yeah, it's a softball question. Sure. um, that I wish things were different and I don't think there's anything that can really change that at this point, but I, I want what's best for both of my parents and I hope that we all end up in heaven together someday as one.

Happy non dysfunctional family. Yeah. Trying to say this in the nicest way possible, but quote, my favorite shirt that my wife found for me. Well, no. Oh no, I, you get over it. You know, he's got a t-shirt that says get over it literally it's, you know, I mean, It's like, I mean, like you said, it's, it's over, it's done.

It sucks. Well, it's, it's, it's never this way. Well, the, the initial worst part is over. It happened, it happened, it happened it's there. The fallout just continues, unfortunately, you know, and to just accept the fact, you know, that it sucks. Mm-hmm well, and, and don't complain to us about it specifically. You put yourself there.

Yes. You know, but, but it sucks. And, and to accept it because it, it, it has to happen there. There's no change in it. There's nothing we can do. It's it's the, you know, to have the serenity to accept the fact that you can't change this now, because it's happened mm-hmm and, and to move on and have a courage to change the things you can.

And the wisdom to know the difference. Yeah. So what, if you, what you would tell your parents, if they were listening, is the serenity prayer. I would tell them the serenity pray this, which was a huge, which was a huge help. Uh, for me, um, was the serenity prayer, which, I mean, that was, is there a lot of things that you can't change?

That was I had, I had, I think I was 20 and I had a conversation with a, just a total stranger out in Nebraska at a seminary with this, with this guy at, I think it was one o'clock in the morning and we sat there and I literally just told this guy, random stranger dude, my entire life story. and, uh, to back this up, uh, earlier in the day I ate a couple of really bad tacos.

Um, so then the next morning after I had this whole conversation with this guy, I woke up with food poisoning. ouch. So then he just, he just took this plaque that I still have in my room today and slid it under my door in, in the dorm room. And it was the serenity prayer. And he was like, here you go. And I, that's a really great prayer for people who are feeling hopeless, whether they are divorced or a child of divorce or thinking about it.

It, that got me that really changed my perspective on, I mean, just life in general, but specifically with, with my parents' divorce and everything, you know, cuz there's only so much I can do and everything else is up to God. And that's it. That's freeing that that's really freeing. Do either of you hate your parents hate?

Yeah. No, my, my dad and I are estranged. I don't hate him, but he's treated me ill in a lot of ways. And so yeah, we like with the help of counseling have put up that boundary that it is not in my best interest emotionally or mentally or physically to really have a relationship with him at this point.

Yeah. Makes sense. So, no, I don't hate my dad, but I do hate a lot of the ways he's treated me. Yeah. And that's okay. Yeah. Hate the sin. Love the center. Exactly. Yeah. And that's the thing I think that can be so toxic in families. Like we come from where we might not even feel like we're allowed to talk about in honesty, what has happened.

So I'm so glad we were able to do this. Really appreciate you spending time with us. Um, your wise, it's been just on a personal note, amazing watching you two grow. I know we haven't lived in the same place and haven't always, I haven't always been great with staying in touch with my friends, but I have to say you two are inspiring.

It's beautiful to see. I know probably could have a whole episode about this, but both of you coming from broken families, ads, a particularly challenging, um, can make things particularly challenging. And so it's amazing to watch the two of you just build your family, build your marriage and work through the inevitable issues that come up.

So perhaps you guys it's, uh, it really is inspiring. And not just saying that to give you big hat. It's it's beautiful. Um, so yeah, so with that, I wanna give you guys a last word. Like what words of encouragement, what advice would you give to someone who feels really broken? Feels stuck, maybe feels worthless because of everything they've been through, uh, with their dysfunctional family, with the broken family, with their parents' divorce or separation or whatever is the reality in, in their family.

Like what, what encouragement would you give them? What hope? What advice would you say to them? Hmm. You are the master of your fate. Yeah. I mean that's to, to remember that it's always, it's not the end of the world. It probably feels like it in the moment, but you know, it, it will get better, whether you're five or 15 or 50.

Yeah. And, and to pray. And, and remember, I mean, really to remember that. And I, and I would tell everybody to really pray the serenity prayer, to understand what you have, the ability to change and everything else is all in God's hands, all in God's hands and a any, any of the, the negative thoughts. They're not from God.

No, they're, they're not. And he wants all the best for you. He knows that my favorite Bible verse that gave me hope was Jeremiah 29 11 for, I know the plans I have for you says the Lord plans of welfare and not a wo to give you a future full of hope. And like I said, whether you're older or younger and you feel hopeless, Your future is supposed to be full of hope.

That's what, that's what God has promised. And the SI the sins of your parents are not yours. So don't drag them along with you.

By the way, the episode that I couldn't remember with Mike and Alicia, Hern from the messy family podcast is episode 44. Again, that's episode 44 of our podcast. Hey, if Stewart has helped you, we'd love to hear how we've helped you. And some of the benefits of sharing your story with us, how we've helped you.

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The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 67. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them, always remember you are not alone, rare here to help you feel whole again, and become the person that you were born to be.