#057: How Alcoholism Broke My Family Apart | Kendra Posch

Alcoholism is a major cause of dysfunction in so many families. That was certainly true for our guest’s family.

In this episode, she shares how alcoholism played a pivotal role in the breakdown of her parents’ marriage and family. We also discuss:

• Why she kept a packed bag that was always ready to go under her bed at college

• What she’d say to her parents if they were listening to this episode

• How she truly desires a good relationship with her parents, especially her estranged father

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• Kendra’s story: Sea of Confusion

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Alcoholism is a major cause of dysfunction. So many families. And that was certainly true for my guests and her family. Today. In this episode, we talk about how alcoholism played a pivotal role in the breakdown of her family and her parents' marriage. We also discussed why she kept a packed bag that was always ready to go under her bed at college.

She shares what she'd say to her parents. If they were listening to this episode, we also talk about how she truly desires a good relationship with her parents, especially her estranged father. And we touch on the strange dynamic she's felt in relationships going between fierce independence to the point where she doesn't let anyone in.

And then the other end of the extreme, where she has an overreliance on people to the point of an unhealthy attachment on that person. This is a solid conversation. I'm so excited to share with you. So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 57. My guest today is Kendra posh. Kendra is a nonprofit director who was born and raised in Northern Minnesota.

She attended Ave Maria university in Florida, and she now lives in Denver, Colorado. Kendra has a heart for the work that ReSTOR does and for true authentic relationships, she holds her family and friends near and dear, and can also be found in the mountains or flagging down a plane for her next adventure.

Kendra's actually a family friend and fun fact. She was the first person to submit a story on ReSTORs blog her story on ReSTORs blog years ago. And so I'll tell you at the end of the episode, how you can. Submit your store, if you wanna share yours, but for now here's my conversation with Kendra,

Kendra posh. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Joey, I've been looking forward to this. We've been friends for a while. Our families are friends. And so I always joke when people come on this show, they always talk about like the darkest, most difficult things in their lives, but there is so much hope which we're gonna get to, but let's start with the more difficult things.

How old were you when your parents separated and divorced? Yeah. Broad timeline. Parents were separated when I was 14 divorced when I was 17 and then gotten in enrollment when I was 22. Lots of different points. So this dragged on for years. Yeah. And it still affects me to this day. And here I am at 27, which we're gonna get into.

So if you would, what exactly happened between your parents? What happened in your family that caused everything to fall apart? So this is the hardest story ever, but short, right? Uh, we did an intervention for my dad's alcoholism, my freshman year of high school fall. And he went to treatment. It went well, everything seemed to be looking up.

It seemed to be the next step for our family. Right. This is a way to have more engagement with each other. This is a way to move past some hurts, et cetera. Mm-hmm um, but then bam, things were turned upside down. I didn't, it didn't go well, it didn't, uh, he went to treatment. Okay. Then he left the treatment center and went on a war path for lack of a better word.

He wanted a separation. Um, his whole extended family got involved. Um, Our small town got involved. oh boy teachers were involved at school. It became a really huge convoluted mess. Mm-hmm um, and I really just didn't know which way it was up. And so if people know anything about high functioning, alcoholics, you know, that first stage when you're approached by your family, you're forced to confront your addiction, um, to whatever substance it is to just face it to face it.

It's scary. Right. And so that first stage a problem, right? That's like the 12 steps. Correct. And that first stage is denial. You don't even know I am lying. Totally. That's what they say it is. And my dad, that's why he went on a war path. Right. He didn't want to admit he had a problem and he wanted to point out everyone else's problems.

Mm-hmm and his focus was taught in my mom and we were all caught in the crossfire. Mm dang. Right. And I know that all of his siblings stepped in and the extended family stepped in because they cared about him. Totally. It just seemed like. They circled the wagons, right? Mm-hmm but they left us on the outside, who we were branded enemy.

Right. We had to choose a side. And if we chose Iran side, you were cut off. So you were seen as the villain. Absolutely. Like it's my fault, right? Yeah. I'm a product. My mom is a villain, but I'm her evil sidekick. Gotcha. Yeah. Which, I mean, it's never okay for family members to do that. Um, but something similar happened in my family, you know, there's everyone picks sides when this sort of thing happens.

And if you even give any sort of indication that you're on one side, like if you're on dad's side or you're on mom's side, then the people on the other side see you as again, an enemy and they want to attack you. And I think family members end up doing things that they normally wouldn't do just because it's such an emotional dramatic situation.

Absolutely. And so it, it turns really, really messy, really, really quick. And it was so surprising. It seemed to be so abrupt, right. This change in relationship, this change in interacting with each other, there are a lot of things that I never knew. Someone could do to someone that they loved and yes, it's misguided, but that is me speaking as a 27 year old, not speaking as a 14 year old, that was caught up in this can't imagine so quickly thereafter it was courts.

Right? My mom and dad were in court, fighting over custody, fighting over all of these things, right. Entering into the preliminary stages and litigation of divorce. I don't super know what happened in that regard. My perspective was court ordered counseling, lots of different counselors court ordered visitation with my dad.

I was the one that had to pack my suitcase every other weekend and go and spend it with him. Right. Totally. And every single time it was am bushes by different people saying, choose a side, choose a side. Right. Mm-hmm he doesn't have a problem with. Mm, there it divorces fine. Kendra. What's the big deal.

It's normal. It's normal. It's accepted. Yeah, it should be good. It's it's a way out, right? Isn't this better than them fighting all the time. Mm-hmm mm-hmm those are the typical talking points of yeah. People who don't really understand the lasting impact and often devastating impact of the breakdown of your family, of the breakdown of your parents' marriage.

Exactly. And, um, to me, my Catholic faith is really important and what the Catholic church teaches about divorce totally at odds with how my parents raised me. So seeing my dad flip on all these things that we were brought up in mm-hmm was also so disorienting. Right. And you didn't know which way it was up.

When I look back on that time and I try to place myself in those high school years, it's, it's difficult. I can't remember good times versus bad necessarily. I recognize that like my brain blocked out so much because I was in survival mode. Totally. So I think, oh, what happened when I was 16? shoot. I don't know.

I remember three big fights with my dad. Mm. I remember a really good time at a piano recital. Okay. But I remember a lot of negative times. Yeah. So then my senior year of high school, um, my mom asked, Hey, I know you're going into your senior year. I think it's time we move. Right. We were in a small town of 5,000 and you're still doing visitation at this point.

We're still doing some visitation at that point. We were also doing, um, Tuesday night dinners with my dad. Okay. Okay. It was supposed to be a quote egg that I gave, right. From the counselor. You ought to do this. Your father loves you, but they were never fruitful. yeah. Right. It was just, how can I get you to see my side?

Mm-hmm it wasn't how was school today, right? Yeah, there was no, there was no building of relationship, which was so difficult and hard because from what I knew, my dad and I were close prior to this. Right. Yeah. And, and you desired that relationship again with him. Is that right? I do. Yeah, you do now. And you, did you at that point too?

Or was it at that point still? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yep. Yep. Um, there was a set point during my high school years where an ambush was planned for lack of a better word. That's how I'm going to describe it. One of those Tuesday night dinners and we were supposed to, you know, be in public, we're supposed to be at restaurants.

And next thing I know my dad is driving us to his house and I'm a very, um, detail oriented person. I'm about timelines. I'm about schedules. And I was like, I know we have an hour and a half grin and Barrett Tundra. Then you can get back to your homework. Then you can get back to your daily life. Right.

Mm-hmm I'm 15. What else do I know? Right. So this is, yeah, my goodness. You know, been at almost a year of all this stuff. Mm-hmm and my dad ambushed me with one of his brothers. Oh boy, the ambush was supposed to be nice. It was supposed to be kind right. My uncle brought my favorite dessert. We're all gonna have dinner together, but this is a Tuesday night.

We drove 30 minutes to get here. I have a lot of homework I need to do. Right. I'm focused on what I can control and what my vocation is at that time. The student I'm a teenager. Yeah. Gosh. And when I wasn't cheerful and happy to see my uncle mm-hmm, keep in mind again, this isn't the use of circumstances I'm supposed to be in.

He's already breaking these rules. Right. You know, something's I know something's up. Yeah. I wasn't happy. I'm allowed to not be happy. I'm a moody teenager. Please gimme some slack. and my uncle ripped into me. Um, and my little sister was there with me. Just absolutely reduced. The two of us to tears, you know, dragged us up and down verbally and emotionally of just how awful we were.

You can't believe that we would ever do this. How is this loving? Aren't you Catholic? Don't you honor your father and mother. How is this happening? Actually, he admitted mother, but wow. And I sat there like crying and I just asked my dad, I said, how can you allow him to talk to me like this? Hmm. And he just looked at me and he said, you deserve it.

Someone needs to speak like this to you. And at that point I knew it's not my dad anymore. He's so wrapped up in his hurt. He cannot see through this mm-hmm right. And it was a turning point in terms of my trust with him. Mm-hmm before then I was really desiring a relationship. After that point, I recognized.

It is not possible. I do not know my father. I do not know what motivates him when it's obviously not my tears and to protect me. Mm that's so heartbreaking because he is supposed to fill that role. Right? Exactly. He is supposed to protect you and it makes sense that there would be such a fracture in your relationship with him, given those actions, the, the things that he did to you are allowed to be done to you.

And I think some people listening right now, we have parents listening right now. Right. And some of them might think, well, Kendra, you must hate your dad. And you hate your uncle. What would you say to them? Do you hate your dad? Do you hate your uncle at the time? I did. I was so hurt. I bet it was so hard, especially rightfully so.

Not just hurt for myself, but my little sister was 11 and I became mama bear during out during this whole process. and so on behalf of her too, I was angry. Mm-hmm and it just seemed so unjust. Right. I was also operating from what, as I said, a moody teenager here, right? Yeah. I didn't, I didn't have any reference point.

Makes sense. Right. And so it was, and now, again, in hindsight, like I learned more about alcoholism mm-hmm I learned more about high functioning alcoholics. I learned more about family systems and the time and space has helped me where I can see that I was hurt and I'm no longer angry about it. Okay. I'm sad still.

Right? I still wish I had a relationship. Yeah. But I also recognize that it takes two to have a relationship and you have to have that safety there. Totally. I, I, I think the reason I bring up that question about like, do you hate your dad or your uncle is because there's a big misconception among people who normalize divorce.

They think that when we talk about the harm of divorce and how people, you know, or separation, or just really dysfunctional marriage, they, they think that we're hating on our parents. When in reality, all we're trying to do is just help bring healing and growth. And in order to do that, we have to face the truth, which is often a very uncomfortable truth.

And that's where people, I think get angry and upset with what we're doing right now is because we're talking about something that's really difficult and makes people look in the mirror and say like, yeah, I wasn't the best person I did hurt these people. And so, right. We need to be able to hold both at the same time and say like, okay, this hurt.

But we also, ultimately, ideally I should say. Wanna have a good relationship with our parents. And that's what we're so focused at restored. We wanna help people to get to that point. It doesn't happen right away as you know well, but to anyone listening who is maybe thinking that no, we're here to help heal those relationships and make them stronger in the future, perhaps.

But we want that right. How can I love my parents when things are so messy? Mm-hmm right. It doesn't mean I don't love them. I love my father. Of course they do that doesn't mean I need to have a relationship with him when there is no safety there. Right. When he doesn't have the capacity to do so. Totally.

Right. His, his experience with that is. Very narrow and limited. And it's on his terms only. Mm-hmm that's not a relationship. No. And every healthy relationship requires boundaries. Like you can't, we, we did an episode on this. You can't have a healthy relationship without boundaries. Right? It's it's impossible.

And so what you're describing is like you've put boundaries in place to protect yourself, but also to protect the other person. That's what a lot of people misunderstand about boundaries is it's not just like this one way street. If someone's mistreating you by putting a boundary up and saying, no, I'm not gonna talk to you now until you change your behavior, you're actually helping the other person.

It's actually like an act of love to say that tough love, tough love, right? it's not something that they would perceive as love, but it's actually a good thing to say, like, no, you, you can't treat me like that. And I won't allow it. And I'm not gonna have a relationship with you until you change that.

Exactly. Exactly. And teenagers are going to be moody. They're gonna be teens and you have to let them be that you can't expect them to treat, uh, this divorce and this messiness. like, they're an adult. Mm-hmm , mm-hmm, , that's unfair. Right? It's being done them. Yeah. Right. I'm not, I'm not trying to like build victims or anything here, but they did not choose you guys to be married.

They did not choose you guys to go through a divorce. Mm-hmm right. And to, and to break the family, right. Obviously parents have to make decisions within like their own steam of things, but you need to let your kids be kids. I am by no means perfect in my interactions with my dad. Right. I again, remember all of the fights.

Yeah. It doesn't mean I was nice. I was always logical. Definitely bet. Yeah. Which was almost worse. um, knowing I was always logical and I just would present logical fallacies to my dad and, you know, he didn't like that. um, And that's okay. That doesn't mean I should be berated for my behavior, because if my father is acting like a child, I'm allowed to act like a child, cuz I'm also a child.

We had family members who were very angry and who kind of ganged up and attacked my siblings. And I, we I've had recently situations. There was situation with my dad where there was some disagreement. And at one point he asked us my siblings and I in like a group text message that he asked us to be like honest with him.

And so I took the opportunity and I wrote out a text message. Like I, I was careful not to like send it right when I wrote it, but I wrote it, I reviewed it and then I sent it. And one of the things I said was what you just said is like dad, like we never asked for this, like we never asked for you and. To break apart.

We never asked for you guys to get divorced. We never asked for a broken, dysfunctional family. Like we wanted a healthy and whole family. Yes. Like we wanted that so badly and it's just really sad that it was taken from us. So I agree with what you you're saying. We don't want people to remain victims, but it is okay to acknowledge that at one point you were a victim and people who, children of divorce are very much so victims, but we're just not meant to stay there.

Correct. We need to move through that. We need to grieve the loss. And, but I think acknowledging that you. This was done unto you, is it is crucial. Exactly. Because it was not your fault that your parents got divorced. Exactly. That's why our new book is entitled that cause no, it it's, it's kind of, it sounds silly when you tell someone that like why in the world would you blame yourself for it, but we do it.

And what I've come to is that often we do that because it gives us some semblance of control over a situation. That's very chaotic. It's like if I, if I could at least look back and see, well, maybe I could have done this differently. I could have done that differently. Then maybe we feel some level of control in otherwise control list.

If that's a word situation. Exactly. There are so many phone calls I can remember countless hours spent on the phone with my dad trying to reason with him. Mm-hmm right. Trying to just reason with him of, you know, alcohol or, you know, different things because in my mind, as a 14 year old or 15 year. if I can get him to accept this, mm-hmm maybe he will accept some sort of culpability for fracture in our family.

Yeah. And maybe then I can reason with him to show him, dad, I see that you're struggling with this and I still love you. Yeah. What can we do, right. Amen. Yeah. You can't reason with someone who's in the denial stage. That's the problem. And I didn't know that at that time mm-hmm so there's lots of tears, lots of phone calls.

Um, again, as I said, like my dad and I, in my perspective had a pretty close relationship. I was close with both my parents and to have that fracture and disintegrate so quickly and easily was huge, huge wound. Let's get into more of that too. When it comes to the wound, the wounds always have effects on us.

Right. We often react to them in different ways. Uh, how did you react to yeah. Just everything that happened in your life, your parents broken marriage, dealing with your dad's alcoholism. Like what were those effects? On you in particular? Yeah, I was angry. It doesn't mean I showed people my anger, but internally I was angry because this was not right.

Mm-hmm um, I'm a very logical and analytical person. And guess what? It isn't fair to have to be more mature than your parent. It was so difficult. It isn't fair. Or just to be the one to pack the suitcase. Right? Why can't he do that? Mm-hmm why do I have to be the one to drive four hours? It isn't fair to be asked by relatives to just let it go.

It's not that big of a deal. They're happier now. Mm-hmm right. It isn't fair to be the one to ask, to check your emotions and all of those things. So I dealt with anger, but I also knew, like, I felt like my emotions were wrong. Right. I'm supposed to love my parents. How can I love them when I'm angry? Mm. Um, and so I wore a mask, I shut down my emotions.

I, and I became so externally motivated and a perfectionist, right? Hmm. No one at my school, unless you were close to me or were in my, um, tine group. And even then they were shocked. Mm-hmm could guess that I was struggling with so much. Hmm. I threw myself into what I could control, which were my extracurriculars and my grades.

Yeah. You looked like you were thriving on paper from the outside. Everything was perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. I was involved with my church. I was involved in extracurriculars. I was doing really well in school. I had great relationships and friends, you know, with things at school, but it was a veneer. I was very cool and collected.

Right. Which can also be a way to irritate someone, which I had quickly found out. Yeah. Right. And when you're always calm and someone can't get a rise out of you during an interaction, but I was shutting down my heart. I wasn't actually engaging with anything. and this became difficult for all relationships with parents, with my siblings, with friends, with family, with guys, all of it.

Yeah. And also all of that, again, I became fiercely fiercely independent. No one was going to hurt me like this again. Right. You wouldn't, you wouldn't let them, you wouldn't let anyone in to even have the chance to do that. Right. And so I disengaged, I sacrificed connection for the sake of autonomy. Wow. It was my survival mechanism.

Right. Do I regret those decisions? No, it's what I needed at the time. And it's in reflection and, and growing that I can, I can look back and I can see that that's powerful. You said you were a perfectionist. I think a lot of people, some people fall into that camp as well. When we're reacting to trauma in our lives, we just tidy everything on the outside, but everything on the inside is a total mess.

Right. And some people are the opposite where they just let their external reflect their internal. So it's like, everything's a mess inside and outside. But other people like I'm one of those, I'm like you where yeah. I make the outside look so perfect. Like so tidy. It's a beautiful facade. Exactly. And so no one would ever be able to know.

And I think that's partly why people like us. Um, are often misunderstood because we often like do really well in some areas of life, like our careers, you know, sports school at the risk of sounding arrogant. I remember the, like the day I found out that my parents were getting a divorce. I was away at school.

This is after they had separated years prior. It things at home had fallen apart. When I went off for my first semester, um, at a four year college. And so I got this call from my mom and I didn't want to tell anyone, I didn't wanna burden anyone with that, which isn't a good mindset. You should open up to people to everyone listening.

Don't do this alone. It's too much for you to bear and people wanna love you and help you through it. But a lot of the people around me, I didn't feel like they could maybe handle. The heavy stuff that I was going through, so I didn't wanna burden them with it. So I just held 'em on side and my way of coping oddly at that point was school kind of like what you said.

Right? And I literally, this again sounds super arrogant, but I literally aced a test. The day after I found out my parents were getting divorced because I, I just like. Poured myself into it. I didn't always a ACE tests. Don't hear me wrong people but, um, yeah, I, I just poured myself into it. So I think a lot of times we like run from some areas of our lives and then thrive in other areas of our lives.

Because those areas that we run from are just so broken. Right. And so difficult to deal with. Right. Like I said, emotionally, I was dead, externally numb. Fantastic. Right. It's a thing I could control. I threw myself into it and again, to an unhealthy degree, but that was my coping mechanism. When I was in high school.

I wanna see if you could relate with this. I felt so numb. Like I felt, I almost felt like I didn't have a heart in my chest. Oh, a hundred percent. Yes. Yeah. Like I wanted to, I, I like had this desire to be so happy and to live life to the fullest and just like, find so much joy. And all I really felt was just like numbness.

Like I, I was going through the motions. I was doing what I should do the right thing to do, but I just felt so numb. So that sounds like what you were going through as well. Right. I remember. Different conversations. I would have with friends where they're opening up to something. And I remember being so emotionally disconnected and reminding myself, Hey, you're kind of acting like a robot you ought to say.

Hmm. I'm so sorry here. Like I remember trying to coach myself to connect with my friends. Yeah. Yeah. I don't mean to laugh. It's just a funny conversation, but it is listen to in your head. That's oh, my self-talk was so interesting, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I would say high school numb mm-hmm sea of confusion.

Total fo didn't know when she was up. No compass whatsoever. Right. I cl to my faith and I clung to my identity as, um, a mama bear to my sister. Okay. She didn't want a mom. She wanted a sister. Hmm. You only need one little sister. And that was my coping mechanism. Right. I really, I delved into that. So then when I go to college, right, I go to college down in Florida.

It's a long ways for Minnesota. And my freshman year, I had a suitcase packed and READi underneath my bed at all times. Why? Well, my little sister still had to go see my dad. Hmm. And if my mom had to leave for a business trip, she had to go see my dad. And if my, if things were bad, I was 18. I could be present.

I'm an adult that she did stay with. But that also meant I wasn't actually getting involved at college. I wasn't delving into myself and all these different opportunities that were there again, emotionally, externally, I was doing great, but being in a constant state of flight of ready to run there at a moment's notice.

You sacrifice so, so much. Wow. That's so moving and yeah, I don't even know what to say to that. It's just so sad that, and, and kind of shocking to people who don't understand your background, don't understand like this sort of trauma. Um, they probably could never understand, like why you would do something like that, but it makes my own roommate didn't even know.

Right. It makes so much sense though, you know? Right. I was, I was ready to flee to moments' notice to be there for my baby sister. Not because she asked it, not because my mom asked it, but it was the way that I could help in that situation. I remember. All the phone calls I had with my little sister mm-hmm we would talk a lot and I always could tell a marked difference whenever she was with my dad.

She even told me, well, it's not as bad with you, not here, cuz at least there's no arguing. Right. Cause it's true. I did. I was in Cindy with my dad. Yeah. Right. As I said, you know, I definitely provoked and was always like logical or just would shout. Yeah. You would stand up to him. Yeah. I would stand up to him versus my sister's tactic was to be passive and that's that's her decision.

Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. She, uh, she knows what she has to do to deal with that situation. Sure. I just hated the transformation that would happen. Right. And I'm sure she saw the same with me whenever with dad, I am more angry. I'm more outspoken. I'm more aggressive. Mm-hmm that I saw with her. She's more dormant.

She's less herself. She's so quiet. I can't talk to her on the phone. Yeah. And so I was just ready to change that at a, at a drop of a hat. Wow. If I can protect her from that. Right. I was still in mama bear mode. Yeah. Not, not a big sister mode. Have you talked to her about that? Absolutely. Yeah. That's beautiful.

Yeah. We talked a few years ago, you know, it's always so funny when you open up, especially like to a sibling or to someone who's in that family system. Mm-hmm, compared to someone removed from it and to, and it's harder . Yeah. Right. And so I just told her I'm. You know, I know you needed a big sister. I know that now.

Um, I operated the best I could and you know, I'm sorry. And she, you know, she just forgave me and she goes, oh wow. I have a completely different take of events. interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so it was really, really healing, um, in that way. And I just have been focusing more on being her bitch sister or just a sister right now that she's an adult.

We're all adults now. Right. I have four sisters. We're all graduated from college, all autonomous sweet it, the relationships differ. Right. I mean, I still will only ever have one baby sister mm-hmm and she knows that. Yeah. And every once in a while, I'll check myself and say, sorry, went to mama bear it's.

So I think it's so natural. Like I'm, you know, one of the oldest in my family I'm number two and. I think it's so natural to be super protective. I, I know I was, we won't go into that right now. Right. You'd rather take the bullets instead of them having it a hundred percent always. Yeah. How else did you see the effects of your broken family?

Parents' marriage impact your dating relationships? Oh, if you're comfortable sharing. Oh, absolutely. Um, I have a core wound of feeling like I am not enough, like I'm not lovable in and of myself. Cause because if I was my dad would've stayed. Right, right. That'ss the whole self talk. That's so thing. Yeah.

Right. That's what I think. But it's paradoxical because my fear is also that I am too much. Right. I don't wanna rock the boat. It was so much easier in the family system to not be the one that messed up. Right. Cuz then all the fingers pointed at you. One counselor described it as, uh, the game of tag. Hmm.

If someone pointed out something to you mm-hmm Hey Kendra, you didn't finish your homework. Or, Hey Kendra, you didn't do your chores. I would immediately flip it and point at a different sibling and say, but she didn't do this. Something that was more grievous deflect, you deflect. But at the same time, you're tearing down that interpersonal relationship with the sibling because you were putting them in harm's way.

Mm-hmm mm-hmm right. So as much as I said, I would take bullets for my little sister. I was also seemingly happy to shun her into that because I was so worried about myself. So that that's what the deem of tag is. You're constantly pointing out someone else's faults, mm-hmm to deflect from your own. Wow.

And it's messy and it is not a healthy way of having a relationship. Everyone's all of your relationships, basically. Right. And I did that because I learned it in my family system. I brought it into romantic relationships. Don't rock the boat. Hmm. So I'm a very independent woman. I'm fiercely energetic.

I'm always doing something. And that I recognize is attractive to like the guys that, you know, I've been in relationship with. Totally. But then I turn into a door mat. Which is not me whatsoever. Yeah. Because I don't wanna rock the boat. I wanna, I don't wanna be, um, too high maintenance or too much. Right.

And so it was so patently false to my identity though. Mm-hmm right. They would ask me a word of, I want to eat tonight again, something so simple. And there's jokes about this and talks about this. If the woman doesn't know, I always know. Yeah. I have an opinion about everything. Even if you asked me in the moment I will form one.

Yeah. And I would be like, oh, I dunno, whatever you want. Right. I would just roll over with everything. Yeah. Or it'd be, I have to make this work cuz I have to do love. Right. Cuz my parents didn't. Hmm. And so there were so many red flags that would ignore. Oh. But like you just have to love them. No, one's perfect.

Kendra. You're not perfect by any means. So what can you do? That's something I struggle with as well. Um, in my day and relationships, I. I had this like fierce sense of loyalty almost to the level of like a marriage, cuz I just didn't. I never wanted to abandon someone and correct. That felt breaking up with someone felt like abandoning them.

So even in relationships where I was like, well, I don't know this isn't really going that well. I dunno if I could see myself marrying them. But I can't like leave them. I can't abandon them. Like that would be repeating what my parents did to me and I, right. That's not what love is. I can never do that.

And so it just misconstrued, I put way too much commitment into a dating relationship, which isn't meant to have that level of commitment. So I hear you. And I think, I think that it is a common struggle, but it's so interesting. Cause I, you know, knowing you as a friend, it's like you are so again, outspoken, opinionated in a good way.

Like, you know what you are. I like to think so you're, you're like a hard charger you get after it, you get stuff done. You're one of the most productive people I know. And so to see you flip, that's so interesting and it probably is super confusing for you when you're looking in the mirror and be like, who, who are you?

I would ask myself that a lot. I mean, you also recognize it when, I mean family or origin, when you go back and you're back home for Christmas and you are not yourself. Oh gosh. And you recognize it, but you don't know what to do about it. Right. And you just feel torn. I would say the other thing with like dating relationships and that emotional intimacy.

Again, I struggled with that with friends. Of course. I'm gonna struggle over during dating, right. A hundred percent. So there I did not date in college. Okay. Yeah. I emotionally dated. Sure. And emotionally dated just means it's an extended talking period. You would go to math together, but it was never actually dates.

It's like a flame. It was a flame, but I gave it so much pressure. And so, because I put so much pressure on it, right. The first date was such a big deal to. Which again, dating should be done in a very intentional way, but it was so out of proportion to reality that I would either be way too invested and turn into a doormat or completely just cut them off.

I would, as one friend said it in college, I would snip them, snip the guy. I would just drop all connection and just be done because the last thing I wanted to turn to with my daddy problems was a guy mm-hmm I hear you. We're done cut. 'em off. Yeah, you cut 'em off, but you're not giving anyone a chance. I had such a, it was such a weird paradox of having this high pressure on love and relationships mm-hmm but also once you were in it, having such low stage such low standards mm-hmm and so there were a lot of opportunities.

I never pursued because, oh, he just doesn't get it. Or he made that one comment about my dad. So he will never understand mm-hmm right. Cause he never talked about it. Of course. He's not gonna understand mm-hmm no one should understand from the get go. Yeah, right. You build intimacy. It doesn't happen in a deep dive on the first encounter.

Yeah. Especially with people who don't come from broken families, like it takes an, an extra effort for them to even try to understand what you're going through. Right. And it was everyone I, I thought, right. And again, it was my own self. Doing people viewed me as perfect. I had my life put together. I had dealt with these things cuz you assume you deal with them to be able to do this.

It's false. I hadn't dealt with them but I, at the same time simultaneously, I was like, I, they put me on a pedestal. They don't know how messy and unlovable I really am. Mm-hmm right. So I'm dealing with this and it would flip depending on the guy, depending on the situation. And honestly it was just tiring, which is why I typically just sniffed it.

And I was like, I don't know how to deal with this because I don't know how to deal with emotions. We're gonna cut it off. It's exhausting. It is. I don't have time for it either. Cuz I'm not hardly sleeping. right, right. I was so wrapped up in everything. Bottom of my total pole, even though my deepest desire is to be a wife and mom was to work on that because that's so interesting.

And it's, and it's that core wound of like, well, my dad left, why wouldn't he leave two? Yeah. And it's almost easier to suffer the consequences of being alone than it is to risk being with a guy who then discovers, I don't actually want to be with you or you're not enough, right. Or you're too much or you're unlovable or whatever lie.

Right. That we believe that when you're thinking in the future, you're thinking like I would rather just be alone. And I think that's where a lot of people are at right now, because then you can't hurt me. Right. It's just this big defense mechanism. Right. And it's such a lie because the right person and a good person.

So in your case, a good man, in my case, a good woman will be able to work through those challenges, right. To work through that brokenness, to show you. Not solely, but as an important person in your life that no, you are enough and you're not too much and you are lovable and you are good and you are worth fighting for, and you are worth sticking around for, but man, it's scary and you don't really know it until you go down that path.

So I remember for me, you know, my first serious relationship was end of high school, beginning of college mm-hmm and, uh, it was so scary. Like I was just terrified and so anxious. And she came from a really, really good family and that made me feel even more so that like, I couldn't open up to her cuz she couldn't understand.

And if I did, she might be like really thrown off and freaked out by like, man, you're kind of a mess inside, even though everyone thinks you are like perfect. Right. Um, which is a huge joke, um, that anyone in my life would've thought I was perfect, but um, I gave off the impression kind of like you did.

Right? So man, there's so much there. Um, any thoughts on that before we move. Only that I was so focused on everything during college. Again, I, I sniffed people. Mm-hmm, that my, my first real relationship wasn't until post-grad. Yeah. Um, which is a big learning experience for me in emotional intimacy and connection and not sacrificing yourself for the sake of connection.

And there's a lot that can be impact there. And it's like this pendulum swing I did mm-hmm right. Um, if you view relationships on a spectrum, right where the, the mean the middle. is the ideal mm-hmm and you're naturally gravitate towards one of the two vices, right? One of the two bad ways to do relationship yeah.

And access or deficit. So for anyone listening, who doesn't quite understand this, it's like, you can go wrong in either of those directions. So access would be too much and deficit would be not enough. Exactly. So let's picture spectrum of relationship right. Too much would be enmesh. You sacrifice self for the sake of connection.

Mm-hmm , which is what I did in every romantic relationship and over reliance on the person, they almost determine your happiness and your wellbeing. Right. And it doesn't matter what I think, as long as we're together, but it's so much better when we're together. I'm sure. Some of you have heard these phrases before.

Totally. I, that was my self talk, every romantic relationship. And then on the flip side, right on that deficit side would be sacrificing connection for the sake of autonomy. Mm right. Remember when I was describing how I robotically, talked myself through emotional intimacy with my friends. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. Cause I, I was constantly sacrificing connection because I wanted to find out who I was, I needed to delve into that and it's a pendulum swing. So I'm naturally inclined to disengage from things. Right. I didn't know, emotional intimacy. It wasn't gonna delve into it. And I saw out other things, but then when I went romantic, it swung the other way and it was totally enmeshed.

Hmm. Yeah. And it was complete sacrifice of self for the sake of connection. Wow. No relationship is worth that that's not authentic and true and healthy connection. That middle yeah. Is able to connect without sacrificing self where it takes you. When you're in the middle, is it challenges you to become a better, healthier, stronger, more whole person?

You have to be vulnerable, right? It's hard. And in those opposite, those, those extremes that we're talking about, they both of them lead you to be, you know, a second rate version of yourself, a less best version of yourself, right? It's not what you're told to me. No, it's not authentically you so much there.

I wanna shift a little bit to the, a happier topic of healing and growth and healthy coping and all of that. So I'm sure we could talk forever about this, but what were one or two things that have helped you cope and heal the most in your life? Three things, counseling, counseling, counseling. Nice.

honestly, I, I mentioned that I was brought between all of this court ordered counselors. We flipped from, you know, this one to that one to everything I know it's like in, when I found a C. Again, not family counseling, not group counseling, but someone for me, I pursued out of my own accord. Not because the court told me to or anything.

Mm-hmm it helps so much. Wow. And this is a recent thing, right? So this happened within the past, um, 18 months, I started going to counseling. I, I had done, you know, different spiritual directions for lack of a better word. You meet with like a religious leader and you, you strive for virtue, right? It's like a spiritual coach.

Yeah. They help you grow as a person, grow a relationship with God. They recognize, um, the big tenets of your life, those big rocks that are in place that motivate you and how you make decisions. But a counselor has the tools to help you through this nastiness that happened, right? The emotional side of special, the emotional side of things, and to learn these tools and everything.

So finding a counselor, building that trust, it takes time, but I promise you, it is worth it. Don't flip from counselor to counselor. Well, let me take that back. unless they're not, sometimes it's not a good fit. Sometimes it's not a good fit, right? Yeah, yeah. Fair. But when you find that you need to give it a chance mm-hmm I am by no means having a perfect method for things.

And I, by God's, you know, Providence stumbled upon this counselor who specializes in family systems and addiction, and she has the same belief system as me. So it matches up really, really well. Dang. Yeah. Right. So it's not denying right. if I'm a Catholic and I have this view of divorce, I need someone that can empathize with that view.

Mm-hmm of why it's a big deal for me. Yeah. Why it hurts so much. Yeah. And I've been to counselors that, you know, they're a Christian and it's different, but like, oh, worst case scenario. It's always okay. That doesn't help me cuz that's not my belief system. So it was so important having that for me and then to see her regularly at the beginning, um, it was every week I was seeing my dad for the first time in nine years and I needed to talk to someone about it.

Yeah. And so I watched into that first session and I unloaded you will just say she made so many notes. Wow. And you know, after eight months I was able to taper off into every other week and um, and it, and it, and it can fluctuate sometimes it's every third week. Sometimes it's back to every week. Mm-hmm depending on what I need, but it's so good to have someone who is removed from my family system.

Who has a knowledge and experience to help me learn these tools and for someone to help me have compassion for myself, she knows me recently. I was just meeting with her and she knows how agitated I'm dating about the family holidays. Mm y'all know, this it's difficult, even if you don't have to choose between mom and dad, even just seeing family so difficult.

And it should be such a jolly time of year, but it's not. There's so many emotional expectations and, um, and ideals and everything set on it where it can get so messy. And it's, again, this is recent. My counselor sent me down and she's like, this is not you mm-hmm, let's work on this. Right. And to have someone that knows me and you can call me out of my space and bring me back to what I'm striving to be.

Mm-hmm, , it's beautiful. And it's so safe because we've built that trust. I wish everyone could have that access. And everyone could have that shorty of someone that is in the, their corner, not mom or dad's corner, your corner to challenge you to talk about your goals of who do you wanna be? How can we get there?

What are the biggest things that you're dealing with right now? Mm-hmm I talked to her about everything, right? Nothing is off the table because we've built that trust. Some weeks is said, dude, I will be honest. Some weeks it's it's work right. Some weeks it is, um, my parents or my siblings or whatever it is.

And it's the fact of the matter is like this hurt was done unto you and it affects every facet of your life. It doesn't just affect romantic relationships, not just mother and daughter relationships or with my dad or whatever. I found it, it, it happens to me in the workplace. Mm-hmm right. Where all these different things happen.

I become a doormat and all of a sudden I'm like, wait, mm-hmm , that's not me. So that's one, a second for me is prayer. Faith is a huge part of my life. And being able to delve into that with a creator who creative me out of love and for love combats, that lie that I have of I'm not lovable, cause that's vital for me too.

And that third thing is having, having people who, um, are outside of it. I have a beautiful example of marriage, um, and Noelle and Stan, this wonderful couple. They are not a replacement father and mother. I'm just gonna clarify that they are not, they are my friends and it's an intergenerational friendship because you know, they're older in their forties.

They have adult children. That's. But they are so removed from my family environment that it's so nice to have an outside perspective. Right. I have friends who are from broken families and who are not from broken families, but they're also at my same stage of life. So I strive to not have an echo chamber in my life.

I fully recognize that I can always learn something from someone and Stan and Noel are for me, ways of calling me onward ways of showing me examples, ways of saying you realize you're being crazy right now, right. Hendra, right. To force me to take a step back. Yeah. Because I can get so caught up into things again, I'm opinionated, but also doormat.

So it's like this weird balance where she will call me out and say, you have an opinion, you know, what is it? What do you want versus you need to pack off. You're being a little crazy right now with that guy, Kendra. Right. It's it's a whole gamut of things. Yeah. And to. not just an example of marriage, but have a confidant that is outside of that.

And can they're I'm too close to the painting. This is what one of my dear friends told me, FEDA, Rita, God, rester, soul. You're so close to the painting. 10, you can't see the full picture. You're so focused on the brushstrokes. You don't know what the full image is. And Noel constant re reminds me of that.

Take a step back even, and this is, um, and it's hard because when I become emotionally invested, cause I'm trying to work on this. How do I take a step back without shifting all the way to disengagement mm-hmm mm-hmm and she knows that, um, she's another confidant that I can go to. That is safe. We've built trust mm-hmm right.

And yes, she knows, you know, my parents. Yes. She knows like some siblings and things, but I know she's in my corner and that will call me on to be like that version of myself that I so desperately desire. I love that. One thing that we've talked about before in this show is like a lot of our brokenness in the trauma in our lives has come from relationships.

And that's pretty much always the case for anyone who's been through trauma. And so naturally the antidote is good, beautiful, healthy relationships. And I love that you have the counselor. I love that you have a relationship with God. And also that you have this beautiful, married couple that you can look to to replace the broken model of marriage that you have in your bones.

Like it, it literally goes down to our bones. Like it's kind of insane. It's not just something we can think about and flip on and off. It's literally something that we have to like work out of our systems by replacing with what it should look like, what a marriage should be. And so I love that and I found that super healing as well with I've had a couple couples in my life who.

Um, have done that for me too. And just, just being in their presence is healing. Isn't it? That's just, that's amazing. It's oh, I'm always looking at tickets flying back out to see new Orleans Stan, and you've spent quite a bit of time with them and that's an important point. It's not like when people hear that, they're like, oh, cool.

You've, you know, maybe talked to them on the phone or you've, I don't know, spent a, like, Dinner with them here or there, but no, you're talking like you've spent quite a bit of time with them. Yeah. I would say that our relationship really, really blossomed actually during COVID I had, you know, been seeking.

I was trying to, I was making these big decisions in my life. What do I do? And Noel and I were coworkers. Right. And she just offered, um, me like, Hey, if you wanna take a retreat from the world, right. COVID everything's shut down. I can't go to a retreat center to like, take a step back, take a week off and gather my thoughts and try to figure out what the heck I want from life.

What do I want for myself? She offered me their Airstream, which is sitting in their driveway. Nice. She goes, we won't bother you. We will let you do your silent retreat. You know, here's a car. If you wanna drive to the local church or anything, but like we will deliver meals to your door. What do you need?

Dream service. Nice. It was lovely, but it was the first time someone asked me, what do you need? No one ever asked me that during my parents' divorce. Hmm. It was always, you have to do this for your dad. This is how you love your mom. This is how you do this. She simply said, what do you need? We'll do it. Hmm.

No expectations. So I stayed with him. I did a whole week there and then went back to Minneapolis, Minnesota, as we all know what happened. And end of may, early June, 2020, a lot of turmoil came up in my city and it was just aggravating. Um, this, this piece I'd gotten from that week out in Northern Washington, mm-hmm so immediately flew back and I spent a month there and I lived with them still in the camper, but I, I came inside for meals, but I was able to witness their family tapestry.

I was able to spend a lot of time processing and talking with them. I'm a very external processor. And to be able to talk through scenarios or different things, it was so life giving to learn a different way. I saw how they dealt with conflict, right. There by no means perfect. They will be the first to admit that they are by no means.

Perfect. And I found such a piece there because of the acceptance, the acceptance of me. warts and all, yeah, it was, it was past the, the veneer of everything I was doing at work. Like I said, she was my coworker. Mm-hmm she quickly saw past that and people do people quickly see past it. Do either of them come from broken families.

Just curious, uh, to an extent like their families are intact in terms of marriage, but they've dealt with their own forms of crazy dysfunction. Okay. Dysfunction. I would say the biggest thing that I've learned from them is just because that was an unspoken family. doesn't mean you need to perpetuate it.

Wow. That's I learned that both from them as well as from counseling mm-hmm and when you break a family rule, prep will hit the fan. Yeah, it will. And it will be in the most, um, seemingly lovingly way. It has to be this way or that way, or, wow. You're gonna be ditching someone if you do that. Like how, how is that love?

Aren't you being selfish with your actions? All of this stuff is gonna pop up, but when you have those reference points for me, that's again, no Orleans stand it's my counselor. it's it is Christ to help keep me sane in this tumultuous storm. That's what I've anchored my ship to. That's awesome. Reference points to show you like what's healthy and what's not, which I think is so, so important.

I love what you said about, you know, Noel asking you, like, what do you need? Because so often, um, I mean, that's like tear provoking, like it's beautiful. So often what happens when your family breaks apart? When your parents get divorced or separated, whatever. Your needs are totally forgotten to the point where you feel the need to feel, fill your needs in ways that are not healthy.

Right. And that's exactly what I struggled with, you know, years ago in my life, when it came to struggling with pornography or other unhealthy ways of coping, like isolating myself, things like that, it was all an attempt to fill, like in real need that I had in a really crappy way. And, but it's all you knew.

Right? And I think that's what happens so often is like, we're just left on our own to fill our own needs. And that's often where that fierce independence comes from. And so it's so beautiful that someone asked you, like, what do you need? Like, it's such a simple phrase, but it's like, man, so, so beautiful.

Um, so much we can talk about, I do wanna ask you if you can contrast your life years ago to now, uh, what is different in, in a few words, like what what's different, how, how has it gotten better? And I know you're still working through. Stuff as we all are, but yeah. How is life different for you now? Right.

Like I, I mentioned at the beginning, this is the hardest story ever, but it doesn't set me off right. Emotionally to be able to discuss or look back on it. And again, I attribute a lot of this through counseling to give me the tools to be able to do this. I know so much more about my natural virtues and vices.

I know so much more about my inclinations and my brokenness of thi of wounds that I've done of wounds others have done on to me. Right. It's both. And, but I now like have learned tools to deal with the difficulties. I still mess up. I still feel absolutely I can analyze breathe and, and an attempt to like solve a situation.

But I'm actually able to use these tools from counseling to like take a step back mm-hmm . And I have that space where I I've been able to grow in self knowledge. And to me that's the most powerful type of knowledge. Why is that so helpful? So does someone listening, they might hear you say things like.

Self knowledge. And I didn't mean to cut you off. I think this is important. They hear you say things like self knowledge. They hear you say things like compassion to yourself. Someone might be like, that's kind of like this flaky kind of touchy, feely, touchy, feely. Oh, wait I with my emotions again, right?

Yeah. Right. So, so why is that? So on a practical level, like why is that so important to know yourself? Why is this so important to have compassion to yourself? Well, those are two separate questions. I would say fair. So self knowledge is important because when you start to learn more about yourself, you can start to reflect on different situations and your trigger points.

You can start to build that environment and boundaries that help make you feel safe and secure, where you don't lash out right at a family gathering. Why? Because you did a workout that morning, or you were able to take that alone time, or you're able to nip an argument in the bud. Someone gave you some critical feedback and you have a right.

You've learned to say, feedback is a gift. It doesn't mean you have to do something about it. Mm-hmm and you say to that person, thanks for that advice. I can, I appreciate that. You care. Yeah. And then you say, you know what, I'm gonna go for a walk. Right. And you might need some space to like, deal with that, knowing that you need that space is self knowledge.

Okay. Right. And then you can deal with more difficult situations. You can learn to build those boundaries where you don't feel like you're in survival mode where you don't go into blocking out emotions. Like, as we said, we were numb in high school. Totally. Right. You learn those different tools and that's right.

It's so vital because you know more about yourself. You then learn what you need. So you can give mm-hmm and giving is how you build a relationship. And that vulnerability and emotional intimacy, I can build a relationship with my father, without him being my confidant. And it's hard to get to that point.

And it's hard to think about that, cuz he's my dad. He. Ought to be the one protecting his little princess. Right? Sure. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. And so self knowledge is so, so powerful. It's so foundational. So basically what it's helped you do if I'm hearing you right. Is it it's helped you learn to navigate these really challenging situations without blowing up without melting down without becoming numb.

It's helped you in short to become a better you and happier you and a more whole you, the best version of myself. There you go. Right. And again, I'm, there are a lot of times where I still mess up, right where I leave an interaction with a family member and I'm like, shoot, I really, really mess that up. And I knew I was doing it in the moment, but if I can reflect back on it, I can see what my trigger points were.

Mm-hmm um, and so then I can start to reflect. The next best thing would be. I start to recognize it in the moment of like, wow, I am actively needling my sister right now. Right. Because I am feeling unsafe for whatever reason. Mm-hmm and sometimes that could be as simple as I didn't eat right before I talked to her.

Totally. Right. I'm just way more hangry. Yeah. So don't call someone when you're angry. Right. It's so it's as simple as that for me, right. To a much more complex and situational thing. Right? Sure. Sure. It's through that self knowledge where then I. One reflect, see where I messed up two. Maybe I can recognize it in the moment.

And then you hopefully build up two. You can recognize it before it happens so you can prevent it. And that's why it's so powerful. Yeah. No, that's it. That makes so much sense. And then the compassion portion of it, it kind of goes hand in hand, but what, uh, what else would you add? I guess to that question, if someone's thinking like, that sounds so corny, why is it actually really helpful and good?

This is something that I've been working on this past year with my counselor, right. Where she's like, you need to have compassion for yourself and I'm sitting there like, why , why is this so vital? Yeah. But it's, it's vulnerability. It's learning that emotional intimacy and it's learning how to. forgive myself and what I mean by forgive myself.

It's forgive myself for when I look back and I see all the ways I messed up, right with my dad, with my siblings, with my little sister, with my mom, with friends around me again, I was an angry mean person and very calm, cool, and collected where I made it seem like it was your fault. You were exploding. I needed to have compassion.

That that was all I knew. I need to be able to look back and like engage with my 14 year old self of like, Hey babe, it's okay. It's not your fault that your parents divorced. It's not your fault. You feel unloved. It's not your fault. You feel so lost. And that's where that compassion is vital because I'm then engaging my emotions and I'm engaging my heart.

I'm learning to forgive myself because if I can do that, I can start to learn to forgive others too. Like the difficult others, not the easy others. Sure. The difficult ones that involve lot more of your emotional capacity. Wow. That's important. That's not some corny, phony thing. That's really key. And I think when it comes to healing trauma, that seems to be one of the core tenets of any sort of trauma therapy is that you'd come to some level of giving yourself grace.

Maybe that's a different way of putting it, right? It's like, you're, you're kind of letting yourself off the hook in some ways in inappropriate ways, right? You're saying like, man, it it's understandable that you acted this way. It's understandable that you did these things and it's helpful when you have compassion for yourself.

And sometimes, you know, it can flow one way or another. For me, I needed compassion for self first, before I could have compassion for others. Again, the others that really hurt me deeply, not the easy others. mm-hmm right. And so for others, it's through compassion through those hard situations that they can then have compassion for themselves.

But for me, as I said, I locked down my emotions. It was the last thing I was gonna touch. Cuz it was messy. No one was gonna hurt me again. I will not be vulnerable. That's why it's been one of the hardest steps for me. Okay. But then I can look back and I can see my parents and I can see. Wow. You guys were both brought up in alcohol at.

you both dealt with to dependent, you know, behaviors in terms of communication and you perpetuated that in your own family, cuz that's what you knew. Mm-hmm and to have compassion for them at that time, I know I'm throwing around a lot of counseling terms and a, and a lot of alcoholism terms, um, because it's the way I analyze right where it is through logic.

And stopping and removing myself from the situation, whether it's taking a walk or hanging up the phone, not mad in a mad way. Right. And taking a space and reflecting where I can see, okay, this is the reality of the situation. This is what they knew. How can I move on? Wow. You've grown so much. That's beautiful to see.

And I admire you for sticking with it. I think that, and alone is like an act of courage and it says so much about a person. So bra, blah, anything else to add when it comes to how your life is different? Before we move on the last part for me again, this past year was, was moving. So we'd moved my senior year.

I wasn't, as I said, in relationship with my dad anymore, my mom was back and forth, you know, between different states, moving around, doing her thing. And my siblings were in all different states. And I love Minnesota with huge passion. Right? I love everything about it. There's so many good memories there. I did not realize how healing also how scary it was to move to a different state.

Not because a college brought you there. Right because community is right there from the get go, but to have a different start outside of that, again, we've moved my senior year. I was four hours away from my dad. I was not in that small town anymore, but being able to move to Colorado and to create that space of like, what do I want out of life?

Who do I want to be? These are constant questions. I asked myself even 13 years later after this, the first separation, right? Yeah. It was so vital to have that space where I can learn, what do I want? Right. When Noel asked me, what do you need? I had no idea. I didn't know how to answer. I'm always worried about like helping everyone else.

Right. You put others' needs over here. Right? And so you have to be able to engage yourself to do that. And so I had that space and I'd been working on this and I'd been out of college and I'd been doing all these things, but being able to move. Oh, my goodness. It was, it was another, a way to, to, to learn autonomy, right.

And to learn how to connect with my family, because I had my own little den. Right. I had my own way of an, an area where I, I still felt safe and secure where I can engage in more difficult relationships where I I'm texting my dad. Now I would not have been able to do that if there was ever a thing of just drive up and Sue me for dinner right there.

There's none of that pressure. Yeah. And so for me, that was the right decision to do. And you've been able to at least learn better how to navigate your relationship with your mom. You've gotten, you know, things aren't perfect by any means neither with your dad or your mom, but yeah, because I'm not perfect.

There you go. I love that, but that's really, I think that's a beautiful and powerful change in your life too. You know, it went from maybe acting out emotionally to now you're able to engage your parents in a respectful way, but also retain your boundaries. Not fall into like old patterns. Right. I can text my dad about hunting or about guns or about wildlife.

Right. I text my mom about home improvement projects I'm doing or about my faith. Right. There's different ways I can connect with them without feeling like I'm sacrificing myself for the sake of connection. That's awesome. If your parents were sitting here with us right now or were listening, let's say to this podcast episode, uh, it's a big question.

It's probably the most difficult question I've asked so far. What, what would you say to them? What would you say to your mom? What would you say to your. I love you first and foremost. And if I need space, please let me have it. And it doesn't mean I don't love you when I need to go for a walk or I need to remove myself from something, or I seem to emotionally shut down because there are times when I cannot give.

And if I'm backed into that, that corner and you want something from me immediately, and you need this and you don't realize you're doing it, and I'm trying to give better signs and ways of communicating. Like, if I can have that space, I can love you better rather than responding out of being scared or angry or vulnerable, and I'm not ready for it.

And someone forced me into this, right. Because I know they have the best intentions, but it's to let me have space because it's hard already navigating a divorce. It's also hard learning how to become an adult and having that autonomy in your family. My family's a very enmeshed family. And so to be able to allow me to have that space to operate, it's not being, being selfish.

It's actually me loving you better. Beautiful. Thank you so much. I'm gonna give you the last word, um, before I do just thank you for being vulnerable. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for sharing a lot of intimate details of your story. Um, it's powerful and I know a lot of people listening can totally relate with you.

So thank you so much. You have the last word. What would you say to someone right now? Who's listening, who feels broken, who feels stuck in life because of the trauma they've endured, especially from their broken family. What, what would you, what encouragement, what advice would you give to that person?

It's okay. If you're not at a space to give. And it's okay to receive from others. You are not in charge of anyone else first and foremost, you need to get yourself in order, right? And there's different paths for people as you delve through that, your duties. And first and foremost are to yourself because you cannot give what you cannot have.

Find your counselor, build a relationship delve into self knowledge. As I said, it's the most powerful type of knowledge to have. And to remember like the only thing you can control is yourself. The only thing you can work on and to strive in is yourself. And always remember the serenity prayer, God grant me the serenity to accept the things.

I cannot change the courage to change the things that I can and the wisdom to know difference.

Absolutely love the question that Noel asks, Kendra, what do you need? I think it's really profound and that's something I wanna invite you to think about, to chew on, to reflect on what do you need. In other words, what are you lacking in your life? That if you had, it would bring real, genuine peace, freedom, and happiness.

What do you need? Because the truth is if you don't fill your legitimate needs in healthy ways, what we tend to do is fill them in unhealthy ways, which leads to a lack of peace, a lack of freedom and a lack of happiness. And so give that some thought, what do you need in the conversation? My new book came up.

So I just wanna tell you a little bit about that. If you haven't heard about it, it's called. It's not your fault. A practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents force. It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by teens and young adults from broken families.

If you wanna buy it, or you just wanna get the first chapters for free, you can go to restored ministry.com/books. Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. If you wanna share your story on our blog like Kendra did, like I mentioned, at the start of the show, you can do that. It's really simple.

Three simple steps go to restored ministry.com/story. You can just fill out the form on that page. It's really a simple form that will guide you in telling a short version of your story. And then we'll turn that into an anonymous. Blog article. Now, some of the benefits to doing that, reflecting on your story, through the process of writing it out is actually healing on neural biological level.

It makes your brain healthier and writing your story, the act of writing your story, not just reflecting on it is also healing. There have been studies that have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed. They're less anxious, they're healthier.

And they're happier going beyond just reflecting and writing out your story. Sharing your story with someone else is also healing on a neuro biological love. And lastly, your story, the struggles you've overcome, the struggles you've endured can give someone else hope, especially someone who's going through what you've been through right now.

It could give them some guidance and give them some hope, especially if they feel hopeless. And so if you wanna share your story, we'd love to hear it. We'd love to receive your story@restoredministry.com slash story. The resources mentioned during the show notes at restored ministry. Dot com slash 57.

Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from the effects of their appearance, divorce, or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you are born to be.

#056: How Virtue Results in Happiness & Freedom | Dr. Andrew Swafford

Dr. Andrew Swafford came from a dysfunctional family, even though his parents never got divorced. As a result, he questioned: “Can I be a good husband and father? Or am I destined to repeat the cycle of dysfunction?”

Thankfully, he overcame those doubts and built a beautiful marriage and family. In this conversation, he shares what helped him to do just that. Plus, we discuss:

• What is virtue and how do you build it?

• A three part framework to know if you’ve acquired a virtue

• The ultimate measure of a virtuous person

• Why virtue offers you happiness and freedom

• Practical tips you can use today to build virtue

Buy Dr. Swafford’s book: Spiritual Survival in the Modern World: Insights from C. S. Lewis's Screwtape Letters

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Dr. Andrew Swafford

  • John Paul II to Aristotle and Back Again

  • Nature and Grace: A New Approach to Thomistic Ressourcement

  • Nature and Grace: A New Approach to Thomistic Ressourcement

  • Ascension: Dr. Andrew Swafford’s Products

• The Art of Living: The Cardinal Virtues and the Freedom to Love

• Back to Virtue: Traditional Moral Wisdom for Modern Moral Confusion

• Emotional Virtue

• Mere Christianity  

• Sister Mariam 

• Fr. John Burns 

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

My guest today came from a dysfunctional family, even though his parents never actually got divorced. And as a result, he seriously wrestled with questions. Like, can I actually be a good husband and a good father, or am I just destined to repeat the cycle of dysfunction that I saw in my family now, thankfully he overcame those doubts and he built a really beautiful marriage and family.

And in this conversation he shares what helped him do just that. And I'll give you a hint. It has so much to do with healing. And building virtue. And so in this episode, we discuss what is virtue and how do you build it? He offers a three part framework to know if you've acquired a virtue. We also talk about the ultimate measure of a virtuous person.

We touch on why virtue offers you happiness and freedom. And then we share some more practical tips on how to build virtue today. This is such a valuable conversation. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 56. You've probably heard that my new book is live on Amazon. It's titled.

It's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. The sad truth is that for a lot of teens and young adults, the most traumatic thing that they've endured is their parents' separation or divorce, but nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and problems that stem from their family's breakdown.

And without that guidance, they continue to feel alone and struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles and so much. And I experienced these exact problems. I know this firsthand. It shouldn't be this way. My book, it's not your fault is an answer to that problem.

It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges face by teens and young adults from broken families, such as. After my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted, inadequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me. Self-harm is my way of coping. How do I stop? What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life events?

How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage? I feel broken. Like something is wrong with me. How do I heal and feel whole again? What can I do to heal my relationship with my parents? Why does God let bad things? Like my parents' divorce happen. The content in the book is based on research, expert advice and real life stories.

And after reading, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents' divorce or separation, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems. They'll learn healing tax. Dicks to help them feel whole again, how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions about their future.

And if you come from a broken home, this book is for you, but if that's not your background, maybe you don't come from a broken family. This book is also for you because you likely know someone who comes from a broken home. And so this is a solid resource that you could. Give to them or use to learn how to help them.

And so you can buy the book right now on Amazon. Just click the link in the show notes, or go to restored ministry.com/books. Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. Now, if you're not ready for that, you can get the first chapters for free on our website. Just go to restored ministry.com/books.

Click on the button to get the free chapters. Fill out your name, your email, and we'll send you the free chapters again. You can do that@restorministry.com slash books. My guest today is Dr. Andrew SWER. Dr. Swofford is the associate professor of theology at Benedictine college. He's the general editor and contributor to the great adventure Catholic Bible published by Ascension press.

And he's the host of the DVD series and author of the companion book, Hebrews the new and eternal covenant, as well as the author and host of Roman. The gospel of salvation, both published by Ascension. Dr. Andrew is the author of nature and grace, John Paul II to Aristotle and back and spiritual survival in the modern world.

He holds a doctorate in sacred theology from university of St. Mary of the lake and a master's degree in old Testament and symmetric languages from Trinity evangelical divinity school. That's a mouthful. He's a member of the society of biblical literature, academy of Catholic theology and a senior fellow at the St.

Paul center for biblical. Theology. He lives with his wife, Sarah and their five children, Atchison, Kansas. And you might remember Sarah from the podcast. She was on an episode 20, which we discussed in the conversation. We spoke about navigating singleness in that episode. I'm so thrilled to share this episode with her husband, Dr.

And Andrew Swafford, such an insightful and valuable convers.

Dr. Swofford it's such an honor to, to have you on the show, I've been looking forward to this for a long. Yeah, such a blessing, Joey. Uh, thanks for having me on, man. I want to, um, talk to you about virtue. Wanna talk about how do you build virtue, things like that. But before we dive into the virtue side of the conversation, I'd like to start with your story.

When Sarah, your wife came on in episode 20, she mentioned pretty vulnerably that there was a lot of brokenness at home growing up. There's some dysfunction. And so. I'm sure. There's a lot. We can talk about there. I wanna hone in specifically on the example of marriage that you saw, what was that example like for you growing up?

Yeah, so my, my parents were married, stayed married, or are still married, but it was one of those kind of, um, unhappy marriages. I mean, lots, and, and from the time I can, as long as I can remember, I mean, I, I just assumed they would eventually get divorced. They just, just never did so lots of volatility. Um, you know, I mean, My dad was not to my knowledge and not with, not with me, uh, ever physically abusive, but, but very, very verbally abusive in terms of, it just didn't take much to set him off, worked really long hours, lots of overtime.

And, and, you know, and, and again, lots of people certainly have had it far worse, worse than I, but you know, lots of tension, lots of you just never know when, when something was gonna kinda set the trigger off. And, uh, yeah, that was, you know, one of the deep fears that I had, you know, kind of coming of age and after having my conversion was.

Could I be a good dad? Could I be a good husband? Because I didn't see the example of it. Absolutely. And because of the example that you saw, I'm just curious, what sort of fears and struggles did you have aside from believing, or maybe not believing yeah. That it was possible for you to be a good husband and be a good father.

I mean, so you, I think you kind of assume, uh, maybe subconsciously at least I, I did for a while that you kind of, you know, you're sort of destined to repeat the patterns you grew up with. And, and I can look back at my, you know, my father's life and, and, you know, he didn't have a great upbringing and there's lots of dysfunction there.

And so it's easy to kind of be almost fatalistic about that. And, and what. I, when I came to realize, and in some ways it, it didn't happen fully until after I was married, after I started living, it was, and that's why I love to tell college guys all the time. Like brother, you can be as good of a dad or husband as you want to be.

I think we do repeat the trends that we grew up with. If there's nothing to buck the trend, but if there's something. Bucks the trend, a convers experience, a firm resolved to be the dad. You didn't have that can move mountain. So I just wanna say to everybody, listening to everybody, I, I said this all the time to guys that come across fear, not man.

Uh, you are not a prisoner to your past. I don't care what what's there. You're gonna, we're all gonna have wounds, but you're not a prisoner. You can be, you can be as good of a dad or husband as you want to. So good. That's so encouraging. Cuz I think a lot of people, I know the people that we work with through our ministry feel exactly that fear that you mentioned of repeating the mistakes that they saw in their parents' marriage.

And like you said, so often it does happen from generation to generation. There's just divorce. Like one of my friends, I was talking to this couple that we hang out with, uh, frequently and close friends of ours and they can only think of one couple. That has stayed married in their extended and her extended family of everyone that's been married.

Yeah. Just shocking and, and scary too. And I know they feel that fear, uh, in a very real way, but I think it's good for you to say that you're not destined to go down that road. And I think one of the things that, uh, I think of two aside from the firm resolve, which is absolutely necessary is building someone of a system, a, a community around you.

Yeah. To support you because. If you go at it alone. I mean, so often you're just gonna end up going back to what you saw. It's just what you know. Right. It's what you know. And, um, I think you're, you're, you're you're so right. And you can't do this alone. But even, I mean like, so something like half of marriage is in a divorce, but how many are joyless?

How many are like unhappy? And we all know that number is devastatingly high. The key that I think I've come to, not alone with the community, uh, with the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. After I had my conversion with him and. You can't just cover up even very, very good people, even devout people, they can fall into this.

So don't so on the one hand you can be as good of a debt or husband as you want to be. And then the don't be kind of naive to think it couldn't happen to you. Couldn't happen to me because once you get in sort of like dysfunctional patterns and ruts, it's like ruts in the grass, like the rain falls down and it goes right down that path.

And once those patterns get set up, they're really easy to fall into again and again. So I, I think, and part of where we're gonna get to with virtue is that kind. Human formation. Like not when the lights are on when no one's looking, where is the real game of our lives played? And, and man, I would say civilizations are one and lost right there in the school of a family, like right there when nobody's watched, not when you're given a talk, not when you're on the stage, not when all those things, when lights are on it's like what kind of man or woman are you behind the scenes?

And that's where your medal is really tested. And on the one hand you gotta have that resolved. But you gotta have that community to build you up, as you said, and, uh, you know, to speak from my full experience, man, it's not a natural thing by itself, man. I mean, grace builds upon nature, presupposes nature.

And if there's, if there's kinks in the natural human formation, it's gonna affect how grace can transform that. But in my experience, meeting Jesus and meeting him in a profound way in my Catholic faith, they changed. Everything. And it set me on a path. It wasn't overnight. It wa you know, you can't just take some Jesus frost and put it on some old, bad habits and old wounds and expect it to go away.

But over time, uh, it it's, he created the new man and me, and I'm still working progress, but nothing was ever the same after that point. Likewise. Along those lines. So obviously your relationship with Jesus, the people you had in your life, the community, the firm resolve that really helped to heal and start to reverse that cycle of dysfunction and divorce that ran in the family.

Was there anything else that really helped you to heal and to go at your own route? Yeah. I mean, so it's, I guess it's part of a whole, I mean, one. So I came to, I came to, I teach at Benton college now in, at Kansas. Uh, but I came here as a student. Initially I came here by football and, um, you know, grew up Catholic kind of a name only, but never met much to me.

Uh, didn't really go to mass and had this big conversion. Beginning at the end of my freshman year, but really came to a head in the fall semester, my sophomore year. And it's it. Wasn't just Anar call. I mean, it was, it was a, a brewing life changing conversion. I had to let go of some things and I, I met a new group of friends and, you know, the key thing frankly, was a, you know, as I was really be drawn in, drawn into the way of life drawn into the fellowship, the, the virtue, the, just the kind of purposefulness in life.

I mean, so many people. Life, like it's a story with no plot. And that's where this just sadness comes in. And, and all of a sudden, you know, football, wasn't, everything. It became a metaphor for life and not the other way around. And so, but I guess what I'm getting at is it was a relationship with a girlfriend back in Ohio university that eventually had to, that was the last thing holding me back, had to walk away from that for her second from mine, but this conversion process and the mentors that stepped into my.

You know, one of whom was, uh, Dr. SRE, uh, he and his wife, Beth were just instrumental in my life and in my wife's life. They're the godparents of oldest son. It wasn't just a one moment. Okay. Now you accept Jesus. Now he's your personal Lord and savior it. Conversion, as we know is ongoing, and this was a ever deepening journey.

Uh, that's not just, I'm gonna stop doing this, but what are the virtues I need to grow in? And what are the deep wounds from my past that I need to bring to Jesus and, and, and really dig deep, not in a way to kind of like re-litigate relive and beat myself up over. What's the dysfunction going way back and how can it be presented to Jesus on the cross and redeemed and transfigured, and, and here's the thing is like at the N jail.

So in one said, he said, you know, Thomas philosopher, historian philosophy said, you know, St. Thomas Aquinas writes as a free man. Santa Augustin writes as a freed man, Santa Augustin, who, you know, had a child out of wedlock and, you know, have this crazy story and then comes to me, Jesus. And both stories are beautiful and, and both are profound.

Not, one's not better than another, but it's. As I said, you can't just have this conversion and put some little Jesus frost and expect that now all of a sudden everything is gone. It's like, no, no, you gotta dig deep. And these things will resurface at different points in your life. And so I guess what helped me friendship.

Jesus, but really mentors that were really willing to go deep with me at both the spiritual and the psychological, the emotional level. Not in simply like a Naval gazing, but just a okay. What's there. And how can, um, how is this affecting you now and how can we free you from those chains? So good. And I love what you said.

I think if we just put bandages on our brokenness and ignore going to the root and just kind of stuff, things on under the rug, they're gonna come out later. And like you said, if you just put some of that pixie desk, Jesus pixie desk on stuff, you're not going to, it's not gonna change you at a heart level, which then when the struggles of.

Pain comes your way, problems come your way. And in different chapters, like you said, that's, what's gonna break down. It's it's not gonna last so, right. I, I, I love what you said there. And I think the human formation portion, like you said, building virtue is so essential. And so I wanna shift to that if that's okay.

I wanna start with the basic question, cuz a lot of people listening probably haven't studied this stuff as much as you have. What exactly are do we mean when we say virtue? What is virtue? Ha. Well, I I'll tell you what, where it really struck me as, as an athlete. And when I had my, my conversion kind of really came to a head in a Christian moral life class with Dr.

SRE and I walked in thinking it's about a bunch of rules and the Bible says, this church says this can't do that. And I walked in, I couldn't have been more wrong. It was about freedom, friendship, happys. Virtue. All of a sudden I could see, gosh, this is why you're not happy because you, my friend are made for more.

So one of the things that's really deep in the, in the, the classical tradition, uh, in likeso Plato, but, but is just absorbed and enhanced by the Christian tradition is really to see it as an athletic metaphor. Right? I mean, like any player can hit a lucky shot, but the good player is consistent. Is reliable, can do it on command and, and takes joy in doing it with greater and greater excellence.

That's what virtue really is all about. It's not just like on the outside. What do I do? It's what kind of a person, a man rule am I becoming? And the great beauty of this when you really step in is. In each and every action, the choice really is not simply what do I do right here right now? It's who do I want to be?

Because I'm actually modifying my very self, just like a picture. Like I joke with my students. I'm like, look so often we wanna say, Hey, I'm a good guy, deep down. I mean, deep down. I'm a good guy. Despite what I did last weekend, I'm a good guy. It's like, Hey bro. It's like saying I'm a good pitcher. Deep down.

I just never throw strikes. it's like, it doesn't work like that because each pitch you throw with poor mechanics makes it more likely you'll throw with poor mechanic. The next time. And so it's so easy for so many of us to say, Hey, I'm gonna live it up now. And I will get real about life in five years.

And in light of virtue, it's like, no, no, no, who, what you're doing now is directly related to who you'll be in five years, because you are on a journey of becoming you're becoming a certain kind of person. And so what virtue does, it becomes a, you know, it's, there's different etymology. I mean, veer and Latin means a Manliness or a power, like virtue gives you the ability.

To do the good to do it promptly, to do it even effortlessly and to do it with joy. In other words, the moral life is not just, let's always do the hard thing. It's no become the kind of people who can do the right thing. With ease with joy promptly on demand and thereby attained the freedom to be who you really wanna be.

We all wanna be the hero when it counts, but the only way you get there is by being a champion in the little things. And you think about movies like gladiator, right? So remember when he, you know, he's captured and think about the difference to him as a seasoned soldier. Versus others who have never seen combat.

And there's that one scene with a guy's like tinkling nose lake. And that probably would be me in all honesty, but, but that's what virtue does. Me too. It makes you a seasoned, moral and spiritual athlete. So you've been there. You've been tested, you have a pattern of overcoming these things. And so when the big test comes like.

You're ready. Whereas you're not just a lucky player who, oops. He hits a lucky shot. Like, no, no, you're you you're Michael Jordan. You you're the one who's who wants the ball in that clutch moment because you've honed in on the skills to play the game of life with excellence. It's about the art of living and living well.

I love that. And I was just watching gladiator last night. That's hilarious. As soon as you, as soon as you were saying that I was like gladiator. Cause yeah, Maximus had spent years and years developing his skills as a warrior. And uh, it's not something that happens overnight. And I think that's a good reminder.

One of my teachers at Franciscan, I went to Franciscan university. One of my teachers, Dr. Um, ashy. He would always talk about ease, promptness and join. I love that framework cuz you basically to everyone listening. You know, that you've acquired a virtue integrated into your character when you can do it with ease, prominence, and joy.

Right. And so really helpful to remember. Totally. AOLs got a great line at the beginning of his ethics, where he says, um, the it's really fascinating. The pleasure or pain accompany in an action is an index of my. It's not that the pleasure pain is an index of the action being good or evil. It's not that, but like if I'm especially pained by doing a virtuous action, if it really hurts, that's a sign that I have not yet mastered that virtue.

It's sort of like, I mean, you know, for me, this is pretty smoking fast. I've done it a couple times around a six minute mile, but yeah. And let's say I do that. I throw up everywhere. Right. And it's been a long time since I've done that, but let's say I train for a series of months and then around the same mile, same pace.

It won't be as painful. When I'm in better shape, that's what the virtuous life's all about. So good. Are VIRs just good habits or is there more to it than that? Yeah. Well, so they, yeah, I mean, so we can, we can go in, in deeper ways. Um, So for someone like Aristotle, he looks at what we are. I mean, and, and he'd be happy to speak about like the, the virtue of a horse or the virtue of, you know, a watch in horse.

What, what makes a horse, a good horse? What makes a watch a good watch when it performs its function? Well, so he looks at human being, what is a human being? He says it's he's it's ARA. RA is a rational. So reason and, and not just reason that is the ability to kind of calculate as if we're just a computer in a machine.

But, but, but to ask, because think about this, we can ascribe reasons to animals. The animal did this for this reason, but the animal doesn't ask itself, whether these are good reasons for doing this action. There, there are, I mean, again, animal animals are amazing, but I'm interested in the monkeys, DNA, not the other way around.

So what does it mean then to live in accordance with the fullness of my nature as rational? What it means in part for aerosol to not be a slave, to my emotions, not to be a slave, to my passions. Uh, and so I courage, for example, it's not, not having fear. It's not letting fear control me and having the ability to rise above it when the moment is right to choose the good, even in spite of this difficulty.

And so it it's good habits that are perfective of our nature, right? So, uh, the classic Cardinal virtues. So you think about, okay, what what's right. Reason applied to decision making. It's called prudence. What's right. Reason applied to relations with others. It's called justice. What's right. Reason applied to my emotions of fear and things like that.

It's called courage. What's right. Reason applied to my desire for food, drink and sex in inappropriate ways. It's called temperance. So those virtues then don't fall out of a hat as just a bunch of values that some people like rather they are perfective of our human. As rational and as free. And then when the Christian tradition comes along and says, yeah, but there's also faith hope and charity.

What happened? I mean, think about what charity. I mean, those things, faith, hope and share. I think what hope does to courage? Think about how it enhances and dramatically strengthens courage. Yeah, there's the courage of a soldier, but there's always the, there's also the courage of a martyr who has the ability to persevere through an evil that he or she cannot remove.

And we're all gonna need both kinds of courage in life. Think. Not just prudence, but faith where you see the world as God sees it, it, it doesn't suppress the natural virtue. It enhances it. And think about what, what charity does. I mean, think about whether it's love and sexuality. Think about placing all those things in the context of love of God and radical love of neighbor.

Where you love them for the sake of themselves and even for the sake of God, uh, because it's so easy. Think about, you know, cha I know we're all sometimes tired of hearing this, but like, is love about gift or about taking it's about gift or about need. I can love someone for simply what they do for me, but that's really loving myself as I try to pretend to love them.

Charity doesn't suppress temperance. Doesn't suppress human, love it dramatically enhances it. So for the Christian tradition, it's about that, which is perfective of our nature, which brings us to an objective happiness. So happiness, not merely as a subjective state of contentment, but the objective happiness.

That is the perfective of my nature, a happiness that is not easily taken away. It's not simply about what happens to me. It's the fruit of my character. So the Christian tradition says that's exactly right. And let me tell you more of. So good. This is mind blowing and I think, um, so many people listening are just taking all of this in and I, I think one way to summarize and correct me if I'm wrong here.

Yeah. Go for it. Is that, uh, one of the best measures of how virtuous a person is, is their level of self mastery. Would you say that's true or not? Oh, and I mean, I think it, when, when all comes to a head, can I rise above my spontaneous emotional reaction in the. And this will make or break a marriage. This will make or break a father and son, father.

And I mean, and we're not gonna be perfect, but, but think about how often we are just kind emotional pinballs and just think about all the kind of dysfunctions that, that occur when there's one comments made and then it escalates to more. And then you just develop these, these dysfunctional patterns and habits.

Roommates siblings, parents, spouses, like this is where I think. So I think you're exactly right. Can I attain self mastery? Can I be master of myself because I cannot fully love, I can't fully give myself until I am master of myself. Hmm, Dr. Susan, David is a psychologist at the Harvard medical school and she goes at this from somewhat of a more secular point of view, but she talks about how, um, this idea of emotional agility.

And she said it basically has two parts. It's it means facing your emotions, feeling them, not stuffing them away, not ignoring them. Right. Right, right. But then choosing your response in a way that aligns with your deepest held belief. So for Catholics, we would say, yeah, that sounds like virtue. That that's exactly right, because it's like you say, it's important to say this.

It's not a suppression of emotion. It's not a suppression of passion. It's a right ordering of them. And in real sense, it's even greater to do the right action with passion. So passion doesn't necessarily be the guy it's not passion's job to find the truth. It's not my emotions job to find the truth. But when I find the truth and I will.

Execute that truth. It's even greater if I do it with passion, because now my full self, the emotion, I mean, think about what the emotions do. There's a vividness to our lives. Cause the emotion there's like a Gusto to our lives that would be lacking. We're not angels or robots. Right. So love ordered by right reason.

Should bring all the passion in the world. You just have to get the, the right reason context first. And then it's actually, I think I would say this a positive. Good. So the tick spouses, for example, it's important to connect emotionally with one spouse. So the love can't be simply based on an emotional union.

That's gonna fall apart. Sooner than later, we know that, but once it's rooted in a firm act, will I give myself to you and you, to me, especially for a captain, the context of marriage as, as an into, so union form forged by God, then I have to, and I need, and I should, I should take the light in connecting emotionally with my spouse, with my kids.

The emotions are a wonderful thing. It's just not their job to find the truth, but we have to, I mean, it's it's, as you said, it's not about suppression. It's about. Channeling ordering and allowing them to enhance everything that we are. And that goes back to before the fall. You know, what the, what Catholic teaching would say when sin entered the world?

When we rebelled against God, before that time, our reason and our emotions and our appetites were all aligned. Like we didn't have to one wasn't fighting against the other, which sounds really nice. but because we're, we live in this broken world. Um, we have to realign those so to speak right in, you know, making those, and I remember CS Lewis talking about how the head needs to rule the stomach through the chest.

You know, I you're. So you're so right. It's a great, you know, I mean, and I, I, I, that sounds like abolition of man and, and Lewis, this probably is the same point. I'm not sure, but Lewis is known for saying encourages the form of the virtues in that, like, he, he has his wine and scripted letters that punches pilot was merciful until it became risky.

That it, when the, when the virtue is really tested, you will have to have courage in order to see it through. And, you know, I love that you brought up here before the fall because it's, it's. It's interesting in God's Providence that even after baptism, after we've been restored in Christ, the effects of the fall, you know, can Cubas and suffering death can Cubas meaning our kind of disordered desires.

And, uh, they remain in many states will say, well, you know, it's so interesting that they do remain and why. That we may, as they, many of 'em say that we may merit in our struggle. There's something about, I think every athlete knows this. God doesn't test us to see, are you gonna pass or not? Rather, every athlete knows this.

There's something that comes out of us that only is brought out in test that if we weren't tested, there's a greatness that wouldn't come out. If you weren't tested. And I think we know we don't want this, but we, I think we deep it. Now we know this. And so I think it's fitting in God's Providence and even look at our Lord.

I mean, he entered into our plight, uh, and traditionally, even with Mary's assumption, we've most of the traditions believe that she did in fact die as a participation in Christ suffering in death. Uh, and so even though the grace has been restored, we are sons and daughters of the father, the effects of the fall remained.

As really a way for us to participate in, enter into that great mystery of Christ that we may merit in our struggle. And you said I'd rather it not in so many times, but there's part of me deep down knows I am better for having been tested. I love that. And it makes me think of my daughter. I'm a new dad.

Um, our baby girl is actually three months today. Congrats brother. Thank you. We're we're obsessed. And it's so cool. Learning a lot about childhood development. Like learn, watching her grow. Like she's just such a sponge right now. And one of the things we've learned through a lot of the Montessori stuff is that you don't always wanna rush in and help your baby.

Like they need to struggle a little bit, like right now, She's learning how to roll over. And the temptation for me as a dad is like, oh, I'll just, I'll help you roll over. Um, but really I need to kind of hold back and say, no, this is ultimately in the end gonna make you a better, stronger person. If you do this on your own, it doesn't make I kind of sister here there a little bit, but I, I need to let her struggle, which is hard.

And when you're in the midst of it, especially as that person thinking of our relationship with God, it's like, it can be really frustrat. Yeah, no, and you're so right. And I, and I've, I've been teaching my 15th year, uh, the college students who do really well. I mean, just on the whole, we have great students, but those who have had the experience of facing adversity and persevering through it, because they, they own that.

They know they can do that. They, they become seasoned. They've been there before. You know, and I could think of examples with my kids. I mean, I, well, a couple of 'em were willing to act and, and there was this one time when, uh, I mean, honestly, like I think our most accomplished actor he's actually really talented.

Like didn't, he really got a really minor part, was super bummed. And, uh, in fact, one of his siblings got a. A bigger part and you know, it's probably in the family, like the better actor didn't get it. But long story short, I wasn't about to like call and complain to the, the, the director of the theater, anything like that.

Cause I'm like, you know, this is a bummer, but. Just embrace the moment. Embrace the moment. Whereas Lord teaching you here, um, embrace the humiliation for the moment. Be grateful for what you have, be grateful for getting a rule. Some kids didn't get any rules at all. Right. So, uh, it was just a moment of like, you're gonna, you're gonna lose some, like you're gonna get knocked down and, and it's not my job.

To make sure that that gets like fixed and switched in the moment. Rather, I'm gonna watch you grow because you're gonna get knocked down again. Life will knock you down like you, and I know this man life will hit you like a ton of bricks. And if you don't have the experience of having been knocked down, having been disappointed, having like really wanted something and come up short and the ability to persevere through that, like life is just, it's just gonna destroy us.

I mean, and it's, it's, it's about virtue. He could keep going back to it, but it's, it's all about. Virtue and virtue, not simply as like success in terms of career. Like it, it will translate in that way often, but success in life. And for me, that's what happens like, yeah, football's great. But what is the same blood, sweat and tears that I, I, I shed there.

What does that mean in the game of life and all of a sudden, like the mean of my life. Became so much more important. And I guess just to maybe give you a little anecdote, I think a lot of people let's, especially the guys out there are in this boat. I, uh, and I wasn't like a, you know, I mean, I played small college football, so I, I dream about being a Buckeye grew, you know, from Ohio, but it wasn't, wasn't, so made to overstate this, but I got accepted my high school hall of fame and we got to address the football team.

Like 17 of us from different ages, different time periods. And like so many of these guys, we didn't have Mitch time, like, you know, five, 10 minutes said, you know, all of us up here would trade places with you. High school athletes in a second. And I'm like, I'm about to contradict everything you're saying.

But so many of those guys never learn a second act. Like the highlight of their life is like junior, senior year varsity, Fred and lights. It's like, that's a really sad way to be like, I, I love my time there, but I would never go. That was a stepping stone to where I am now. And I think embracing virtue and embracing it wholeheartedly is a way to not live in the past for these kind of frankly, superficial moments that we think are the, in.

Absolutely. And it, it makes me sad too. I hear people talk about college or college years, like, oh, the best time of my life. I'm like, why not make now the best time of your life? Right. And I totally get, you know, there's good memories there. You have that community. Like I miss college in a lot of ways, but I, you know, I'm, I'm not itching to go back immediately.

I wanna live where I'm at right now. So I wanted to ask though, there's people listening right now who may be thinking like, Sounds like a lot of work and you know, our culture is so addicted to comfort. And so they might, people might be thinking, you know, this just isn't worth it. Like why, why even bother?

So what would you say? Why, why is building virtue worth the time worth the effort? Well, just look at every other walk in life that we consider important and the freedom of virtue is just like, it's just like getting in. It's just like any athletic skill that it's at first is clumsy and awkward, but over time in practice becomes fluid and effortless.

It's like learning a foreign language, which at time is clumsy and hard and difficult. It's like learning a musical instrument. I mean, all these things are examples where freedom is not the simply the ability to choose, but the freedom is the ability to do the good. And I think deep down, we want this, we see it in other areas.

And so I guess all I'm saying is, think about that same mindset. But in the game of life, and this will lead to, I mean, in so many ways it will lead to happiness. It, it will lead to a more secure and better life. Cause like for S little happiness is not so much a noun as it is a verb. Hmm. It's a verb that is the fruit of my character and living well.

What does it mean to live the human life? Well, it doesn't mean to simply choose comfort all the time. So recreation, pleasure. All that's a part of. But to make that the dominating factor is, is frankly, to lead to a life of sadness. I mean, sin leads to sadness and whether it's secular or not. I think we know that look at addiction, look at, I mean, and this is the thing is we're becoming a certain kind of person.

So I think, just think about who you want to be in five years and ask yourself how to get there. And the only way is to. Being sincere about wanting to live excellence in the little things. And it won't be perfect. It'll be a bumpy ride, no doubt. But like, I think deep down we know it's worth it. Like why would I shed blood, sweat, and tears to learn how to throw a ball better versus like becoming a better man or a woman.

And I think, I think what it is partly for us is we don't think that it's in our grasp. We think that like, you're just born that way. It's like, no. People ain't just born that way. I mean, like we have dispositions, some virtues will come easier to others and some vices will. I mean, like, so that's all true, but if you really enter into this, someone like Ariss, it'll tell you your happiness is far more in your control.

I. Then you realize because it's the fruit of your character, not simply what happens to you, whereas so much of our lives, like when I get this relationship, when I get this job, when this happens and like, we all know, man, that's a search of an end of a rainbow that ain't ever gonna come. And so it's like, maybe you, I might say this, you've tried it that way for a while.

Just give this a chance and just see what happens. Especially if you do with friends because good friends, then virtuous friends become workout partners in the game of. Who want to challenge you, but also love you and meet you with mercy when you fall. Uh, as my wife likes to say, good for good friendships are about availability.

You gotta spend time together. Vulnerability, you gotta be real and accountability. Like a friend who loves you enough to speak the hard truths. Wow. Okay. And I think for a lot of people having those friends. We don't have that. And in addition, one of the things that helped me so much is like looking to see people who are living that life, that I ultimately wanna live role models, essentially.

And I know, you know, in the Catholic church we have the saints, they live such beautiful lives of heroic virtue. And so looking to them and focusing on them, I think can be helpful as well, because so often what happens, I think is like, people think like, oh yeah, I wanna get in shape or, oh yeah. I wanna, you know, live the virtue of chassis or I wanna.

Become more courageous or whatever virtue you're trying to acquire. And we don't really know if it's worth it, cuz we haven't tasted it. But once you get to that point, you're like, man, this is amazing. Like the peace that I experienced, the joy that I experienced, this is way better than, um, you know, the unhealthy stuff I was into the sin that I was falling into.

But it's hard when you haven't tasted that. Totally. And you you're exactly right. You need levy mentors. So many people don't have heroes. We just don't have heroes anymore heroes in our lives or heroes that we look up to. You know, with our 24 hour, you know, news cycle. I mean, there's, I think we're suspicious.

Nobody's really that good. There's something lurk in the closet that I know about. And we've been, we've been, you know, kind of disappointed so often that I guess in some ways it's understandable, but we need real life heroes because virtue it's resolved, but it's also imitation. I mean like discipleship, like for the disciples with Jesus, you know, my taste, the word, the Greek word.

It really means student, but it's not student who like sits in the classroom. It's these students of a rabbi who lived with him for three years and Morris Coton is taught. So you need friends, but you need living mentors. Show me the way. So that I can imitate you. And, and as you said, the saints exhibit a, but I think we also need people in our lives that exhibit, this, that exemplify this, that show us the way that we can bounce things off of show me what it looks like to live the next decade of my life.

Give me someone just a little bit ahead of me so I can see what it looks like. What does excellence look like in the here and now? Beautiful. And the last few minutes that we have, I want to get into the tactical, cuz I think this is really where the rubber meets the road. So in your. When you want to build a virtue, how do you personally go about doing that?

And if you're willing to share, what are you working on right now? You know, everything . Yeah. So here, I think maybe what happens a lot is there's a vice that bugs us that we wish we didn't, you know, weren't addicted to didn't do. And, and the key is many virtue. Teachers will tell you, it's not just don't.

You have to practice the opposite virtue. You've gotta replace that with an opposite habit and there's gonna be struggles. It's gonna take time. But I, I really think the little things and so courage, we love courage. Like everybody loves courage. Expand what we mean by courage because you're not gonna always have physical opportunities to practice courage.

And the one that we always have opportunities for those templates, uh, because we're always gonna be eating food, things like that. So like, just take, take, I mean, just start like this take, take, um, maybe take one meal a week or one meal a day and don't do the, like the big mega fast, like what's one condiment.

You really like. What, you know, maybe you want sugar in your coffee, whatever is just, just maybe take a month and just try to try to a small, fast, a small, moderate, fast. I'm not gonna put salt or I'm not gonna use ketchup or I'm not gonna, I mean, it just on the one hand, you're probably thinking right now.

Oh, this is kind of silly. That'd be easy. Try it as soon as you try. Oh, Man and just watch yourself. It doesn't have to be forever, but just do it for month. See what happens. See, and start seeing little success stories. Uh, and I think that can go a long way. So, I mean, I think a lot of, you know, men and women struggle with this as is pornography and masturbation, things like that.

I would say there. Again, couple things. Watch what's flowing downstream. If your soul, if your mind, your heart is like a, a pool and there's a stream or a pond, or like, and there's a stream flowing into it. If that stream is dirty, it's gonna be really hard to keep this pond clean. So what's flowing into it by that.

I mean, I mean, let's be honest. Uh, what, what are my conversations? What are the movies that I'm watching? What are the, what's the music I'm listening to? What, what, what are all these things that really probably are affecting my heart and my mind in ways I'm not realizing, uh, that are gonna kind of look for an outlet.

So if you want you, can't just, you can't just get to the, the symptom. You gotta take the root out. You need accountability partners. I think also here though. What do you filling yourself up with? I mean, what is, what are you yearning for? And, and, and what if you really filled your mind with the true, the good and the beautiful, and I think here's where the conversion experience for me, the grace of Jesus Christ.

Um, what do you want Jesus that badly? And you bring him into your life. I mean, in my experience, chains were set free that had long held me down chains that I would not have thought possible. To break. So I think you have to believe it is possible. I think too often, we don't hear enough success stories in that category because I think people are afraid to sound pompous, but you need to, you need to believe that, Hey, look, masturbation is not like a, this is not like a done deal.

I mean, like there are people who don't do this. There are people who don't do this. There's people who have overcome these addictions. I think they need to hear these success stories. You know, I think sloth, I dunno if sloth is a deadly sin is sort of a sorrow at the difficulty of spiritual. Good. I think, I think that's the vice for age.

It's a sadness. It's like, I want to be great, but it's too hard. And so I roll over and die and I find myself bored, unfulfilled and restless. And so I scroll and I do things to kind of numb the pain either by pleasure or I become a workaholic and I get really super busy. So I think. Friendship, uh, accountability, fill yourself with the true, good and the beautiful, I think moments of quiet, a quiet prayer where you just listen, because that silence is loud.

I mean that when you really say I here I am, Lord, what in my life needs to change when you spend 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 minutes like that, just listening. It's really hard to live a double life because either you'll eventually either stop the sin or you'll stop praying, but it's really hard to do. For a long time.

So I think that sounds we're just so you know, there's lights, there's screens there and I'm not against it, but like, yeah. Look up at the stars and spend some time and quiet. And your life will be better for it. I think prayer becomes so much more real when you do that. And when you bring your problems to God, not like he's a divine vending machine.

Like, Hey, gimme what I need. Right. Yeah. But really to develop like a relationship and say, okay, God like, okay, Jesus, this is what I'm dealing with. These are my problems, like right. Help me. Here and then having patience to wait to see how he communicates to you, which often in my life, at least is not through an audible means it might be through a realization.

I have, it might be through a song that I hear my, you know, my spiritual director through a friend who says something through a desire. I have something like that. He communicates in so many different ways. Totally. But, but I think per often is just so stale. If I can say that because we go into it and we kind of try to present ourselves with this, you know, neat looking suit on.

Right. And just say, God, like, okay, I'm here, I'm here to impress you. Right. We're in reality. He's like, yeah, I see right through that, but he's not gonna press us for it. Cause he's a perfect gentleman. Amen. Amen. I mean, when you go to God and your weakness and your brokenness and just what you're talking about here, Even at a practical, natural level, but we know it's, there's something supernatural going on.

It's the Lord, it's his living voice. It will clarify and refine our consciences it's so we can talk about conscience all day long, but we all know that like there's things that we would never do and we do it once. And then the second time, uh, and you're kind of used to it and your conscience gets numb when you really spend this quiet time and prayer in listening and you bring these weaknesses before the Lord, he will clarify and refine our consciousness.

And, and here's the thing. There's a real danger in being your own boss when you want to be your own boss. I mean, we all know this. If my reason and my passions are at odds. Yeah. I might align my passions with right reason or as more often than not, I will cook up some good reasons to justify doing what I want to do.

And prayer is really an active, I eat my own boss. I'm coming to you. And I want to, I want to subject myself to the truth, not the truth that I recreate to match my whims, but I wanna live in accordance with objective reality. And I want you to help me see that. And, and I think anybody and everybody, if they spend time like this, they will have that experience of I've got a deeper confidence in my own judgment, because I've been really reflective about.

And I'm not the boss. I've actually gone to someone who knows far more than I knows me better than I know myself. The, and the paradox there is that it sounds like that's, uh, the opposite of freedom, kind of putting yourself under someone else. But in reality, it leads to freedom. It's such a paradox, which I'm sure we can do a whole show on.

Yeah. And that's how, but if you're coaching a baseball team, a bunch of 10 year old kids, like, Hey kids they'll swing the bat. However you. Oh, gosh, but that doesn't make the free be great back. No, I mean, but that, that's the point is like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm I'm for autonomy to have a real life coach who wants my good, even more than I do at.

Absolutely. I played baseball growing up into college and we were always drilling. And the better the coach, the better the player. That's exactly what I saw every single time. Yeah. I couldn't, couldn't agree more with you. A few things that have been helpful to me. I wanted to throw out there to you and to everyone listening, please.

Um, and you know, these things, I don't mean it to say I'm teaching you, but I, I I've just found these helpful. I wanted to mention them and feel free to elaborate on them. Um, one. Once a week. I have a reminder that comes up on my phone to like choose a virtue that I'm focused on for the week. And then every day before, you know, when I wake up, I'm trying to think of that virtue and try to put it into action to practical ways.

And then at night I kind of do a recap of my day, which, you know, Catholics call that an examination of conscience, which I know you would, if we had two hours, you would teach on all of that. So, so that has been really helpful for me. Another thing though, is. Two things getting clear, almost like a mental image of where I ultimately want to go.

Like you were saying before is exactly what you were saying before. Like, get very clear on like here's where I wanna go. Here's who I want to be. Like, that's where the role models and looking to the saints is so helpful, but then focus like. Intensely on the next step, not getting distracted by, oh man.

There's a lot of steps to get up that mountain, but really right. Okay. I wanna be at the top of that mountain. Here's what it will be like when I get there. Now I need to take these steps this step right now and doing that has been so helpful for me because otherwise I can get overwhelming. Yeah. That's no, everything you said is beautiful.

That's exactly right. You know, we talk about virtue as good habits and, and like, how do you grow out? What repeated actions like, like acts like habits. But one thing I think your point to is it's not just repeated acts. It's also, it's also acts with a renewed and vigorous intensity. So think about it.

Like your baseball swing is something off when you're gonna like fix it. You're gonna like really focus with great deal of intentionality with a great deal of intensity. On getting it right. Especially those, those first few. So that intensity of changing that intensity emotionally, that can go a long, long way.

And I love what you're saying about one of the things I like prayer and that kind of quiet prayer is to come away with an action item. Like what do I wanna work on today and bring it to mind throughout the day? Like you said, that's beautiful and the examine, uh, examin your conscience. I just think it just spent five minutes walk through your.

and give thanks, but also ask the Lord what needs to change and, and, and, and express your, your sorrow and your remorse. Like you. I think we all know everybody from the atheist, the Catholic knows you will be a better man or a woman for having done that, where so much we live life unre, reflectively, and we just go through the motions and, and even people who leave the faith, I think often, you know, some people have a big abrupt rupture, but some people are like, yeah, I don't really know how I got here, but five years went by and I kind of just.

Train and stop going and study. And one thing led to another and here I am, that's no way to live life. It's no way to live life aimlessly like that. And so that kind. Active intentional reflection. I think just, we know it. It's, it's huge. It's huge. And I think the intensity, the intensity can make up for lost time.

That was my experience. Like the intensity to wanna live differently, sped things up in a way that I never could have dreamed of obviously by the grace of our Lord, but that intensity can go a long way. That makes a ton of sense. And I remember when I would go to like a hitting coach, for example, I, you know, it was very intense.

Like we're focusing on maybe one movement in my swing. Right. And that was it. Yeah. And the reason we did that though, was to make it mess muscle memory. And then when I would step in the box in a game. I was not thinking of mechanic at all. That, that's what I learned through sports psychology and everything.

When you get in the game and you probably know, like, remember this from playing football, like, you're not thinking, all right, this is how I need to tackle you. You're just doing it. Right. And that's the goal. That's the goal. Amen. That's the freedom, right? That's the freedom. I mean, it affect the. The teaching externally has now been internalized by you to the point where you don't have to consciously think about anymore.

So my family and I, we just started jujitsu about six months ago. Nice. It's like our new, my gosh. It's we love it. So I've got, I mean, my, it was me and my two other boys. They're 14, 15 now my 10 year old daughter's in it, my six year old son and we are just jamming, but like, it's like a dance. You don't know the steps to.

And then you practice and then you get a match and it's like, you know, it's, it becomes intuitive. And that's the whole point of the virtuous life is to become the kind of man or woman who does the right thing almost instinctively and has that kind of freedom. Whereas the person who hasn't matched the virtue, when the moment comes, they have to really gin themselves up.

Whereas the person who's acquired the habit, who's made this a pattern. It would almost be unnatural to go the other way. Like the person who's been eating right for a long time. It's weird to kind of just like eat a bunch of candy bars. Like it feels kind of weird, even though at first it was really hard to eat.

Right. And eat healthy. And now it's like, it's I wouldn't wanna do anything otherwise. And the same thing happens in virtue. And I think, like you said earlier, A lot of us haven't tasted that. And so we don't know that we don't know the freedom, the happiness, the joy, the peace in for our lives, but also our relationships that comes from that.

But I think all I can say is brothers and sisters, man, it's, it's worth the risk. What have you got to lose? And, and I just promise you, you won't regret, you won't regret the blood, sweat, and tears in this area, just as you haven't regretted that kind of effort in other areas, this is even more important and more reward.

It's gold. Man, so good. And I, one final thought on that, I just think of the heroes that we admire, whether in a movie or in real life, and one common trend is that they have virtue and then that's, it that's really what it comes down to. So to someone who wants to build this virtue, they wanna learn more about the virtues, how to implement them into their lives.

Do you have any resources that you recommend in order to do. Yeah. You know, my mentor, Dr. SRE just wrote a new book called the art of living. Uh, and it's all, it's all about the virtues, the virtues as the skills to live life well, to live life with excellence and to live a, a happy life. So that that's when I wrote a book called John Paul, second air, settle back again.

Which has my story and it it's, it's, it's kind of maybe intermediate. So there's a lot of stuff on like God and science God's existence. I have my story, I get I a primer on Aristotle and kind of virtue there. And I also go through, uh, jump all seconds, love responsibility, and so kind, kind of bring it all together.

So the last time I, I taught the pH department for a while and I taught, uh, Nick kin ethics from Aristotle and general sex love responsibility. So this book kind of came outta that. Uh, I also have, um, a book on the screw tape letters, which is a little bit easier to read and that. Uh, it's called spiritual survival in the modern world.

And, uh, that's really very much. Kind of a lot of the stuff we're talking about at the very human level, the more life, the spiritual life. And again, obviously right as a Catholic, but lots of non-Catholics and, and even non-Christians have felt, have gotten a lot out of this. Those are Amazon. I have stuff for Ascension.

I've got a study on Hebrews, a study on Romans. I, I did the great adventure Catholic Bible, so that's a lot Ascension press.com. And then my wife, um, runs kind of a website where have all of our stuff@emotionalvirtuedotbigcartel.com, emotional virtue dot big cartel.com. Her book, emotional virtue. I should have said that first, uh, fantastic on this.

And this is, it refers to the relationships and lots of really hardcore like sororities. Fraternities like people who would never darken the doorway of a church have been incredibly moved by this book. My wife just has a way of saying, well, we all know it needs to be said, but you still like her afterward.

Right? So I'd recommend. Yeah. Oh, there's so many good stuff out there. I mean, you're ministry, all the things you're doing sister Miriam, James. Um, because. When you go to live this life of virtue and you really want it. There's often deep healing that needs to happen. And, and sister Miriam's work on just going deep because as she will say, often suffering that is not redeemed is gonna be transferred.

You're gonna pass it on somebody else. Somebody close to you're gonna hurt someone because you didn't tend to those deep wounds. Wow. Uh, especially with our Lord. So I, I couldn't re recommend her work. Father. John Burns, another friend of mine. His work is. And the same kind of healing category. So that's kind of a lot, but lots of great stuff out.

Well, list those all in the show notes for you guys. And one book, if it's okay. I wanted to add into, I just thought of that I read years ago was back to virtue by Peter KRE. Yes. Yeah. Love that book. And it taught me so much about virtue and about, you know, the different virtues and a little bit about, you know, how to acquire them.

So totally just wanted throw that in there, but I love the recommendations. Thank. Yeah. You know, CS Lewis's mere Christianity, the whole middle section on the moral life is fantastic as well. I, I, I, you. My wife and I are contracted with Ascension to co-write a book. And, and really we're gonna really focus on this human formation.

That's probably gonna be more 23, 20, 23, when that comes out. And then, uh, I have some other stuff coming from Ascension on the Bible and Catholic faith, but, uh, that'll be in the next year, but yeah, I think Lewis Peter CRA three. The catechism too, is, is very great. Is, is, you know, is excellent on this as well.

Uh, there's just a lot out there, so don't get overwhelmed, just pick one and just kind of, you know, go slow and, and let the snowball kind of get bigger. I have students like how, where do I start? There's so much to read. It's like, just roll the snowball. It'll get more compact. It'll get bigger. Take your time.

You don't have to do this. So good. Dr. Shaffer, thank you so much. I wanted to give you a chance to just give everyone a little word of encouragement, in addition to what you just said, especially to people who are listening right now, who, who do feel very broken, maybe they come from a lot of brokenness.

They feel stuck in life. So much fear, things that are holding them back. What, what else would you say to that person right now? Who, who does that? They feel that inkling in their heart. They're like, I want that better life, but I just, I don't know if I can do it. I don't really know how to do it. What would you say to.

I mean, can I start by just saying this? You are not damaged goods, you are not damaged goods. I think the hardest thing for us to believe in all honesty is Catholics. It's not the Trinity. It's not the sexual issue. It's to believe that the God of the universe, the creator of the cosmos actually loves me.

That the creator of the cosmos cares that much about this spec of matter. You're not damaged goods. You're not, you're not unlovable. You are worthy. You're not a prisoner to your. Start there because I think the evil one will tell us lies all, uh, uh, and the Hebrew word, Satan, Satan literally means to Hughes, like in temptation, he's our buddy come on.

But then when we fall, he's gonna dance us with shame. And I just think there's deep shame and fear. And I just wanna say you are not damaged goods, you are worthy and you are worthy of living the life that you really want to live. And you, my friend are made for more. And I know, you know, this, you know, you're made for more.

I need you to believe that, to own that, and let's make it happen and let's make it happen together. And we can be simultaneously a masterpiece and a work in progress. As my wife likes to say it ain't gonna be perfect, but just like of those other areas, the athlete, the musician, like it, ain't always perfect.

But we know what the path is, translate the same thing into what really matters. And you won't look back and you won't regret it

so much. Good stuff in that interview. I actually listened to it again. I was so good. I wanted to hear more. I wanted to. From Dr. Swofford and if you were overwhelmed by how much information was in that interview, I wanna say a few things first. You can listen to it again, just listen to it again, to absorb more of the content.

And my advice for you, like Dr. Swofford said is just focus on one virtue at a time, just focus on one thing at a time, baby steps, keep moving in that direction. Don't try to do it all at once. It won't work, do one thing at a time. What I like to do, as I mentioned in the show is just one virtue a week. And I wanted to say, if you doubt that you're capable.

Of building virtue of changing your life of building a better life for yourself and hopefully your family or your future family. I wanna tell you that's a lie. You are capable of doing it. And I'm here to tell you that you are, and if you struggle, and if you need some help, we are here to help you. Like please make use of restored, join our community.

Get some coaching consume more of our content, whatever it takes to help you to become a more virtuous person. You can start to build virtue by reflecting on these questions. The first is simple. What advices are you struggling with the most? Right now, you probably can answer that really quickly off the top of your head, but think it through, if you need to, what advices are you struggling the most with right now?

And then what virtue? Do you need to acquire to combat it? Maybe that's one, maybe that's multiple virtue, but again, just pick one and make a super simple plan to practice that virtue today, tomorrow this week, and the keyboard there is practice like Dr. Swofford said, this is like a game. This is like a sport we're.

We need to practice to acquire these skills. And as we do that more and more, it will become easier. We'll do it more quickly. And we'll. With joy. So keep at it. Even if you get discouraged, just get up again and again, and keep going. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 56.

Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful. Feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's really struggling from their broken family, from their parents' divorce, or whatever's going on in the family, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#055: I Wish My Family Was Normal | Ashlyn Frederick

If your family is broken, you’ve probably felt like our guest today who badly wanted her family to be normal. It’s such a natural desire which goes painfully unsatisfied. 

In this raw episode, we discuss:

• How an affair broke her family apart and how that’s impacted her

• How we often use excessive drinking to cope with our pain and what to do instead

• When moving away from your family could be the right thing for a time

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)

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• Ashlyn Frederick

  • Email: ashlynkailah@outlook.com

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you come from a broken family, you've probably had the thought. I just wish my family was normal. I've been there. I felt that I think most of us have, and I remember some sort of situation at home where there was some drama going on and one of my siblings said something like, I just want our family to be whole again.

And that just destroyed me. It just struck such a nerve inside me because I felt that desire so strong. And if you can relate, you're gonna love this episode. You're gonna love my guest today. In this episode, we touched on how an affair broke her family apart and how that's impacted her. She shares how anger was a real struggle for her and what she did about it.

And she offered some advice on how you can handle your anger in a healthy way. We discussed. How many of us fall into drinking excessively in order to. With our pain and what you can do and said, and we talk about how moving away from your family could actually be the right move for you. At least for a time.

This is such a down to earth conversation, lots of good stuff in it. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm. Joey Pelli thank you so much for listening. This is episode 55, and if you haven't heard, my new book is live on Amazon. It's titled it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce.

And the sad truth is that for a lot of teens and young adults, the most traumatic thing that they've endured is their parents separation. Or divorce, but nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and all the problems that stem from their family's breakdown without guidance. They continue to feel alone in struggle, in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationships, struggles, and so much more.

And I've experienced these problems. Firsthand these exact problems firsthand. And it really shouldn't be this way. This book, it's not your fault is an answer to that problem. It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges face by teens and young adults from broken family. Such as after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted, inadequate, and even rejected is something wrong with.

Self-harm is my way of coping. How do I stop? What's your advice for navigating the holidays in other life events? How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage? I feel broken. Like something is wrong with me. How can I heal and feel whole again? What can I do to heal my relationship with my parents?

What does God let bad things like my parents divorce. Happen and so much more, the content itself is based on research, expert advice and real life stories. And after reading this book, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents' separation or divorce, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems.

They'll learn some healing tactics to help them feel whole again. To learn about how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions about their future. And if you come from a broken family, this book is written specifically for you.

And if that's not your background, this book is also for you because you likely know someone who comes from a broken home, it's a solid resource that you can use yourself to understand them and help them, or even gift to them, give to them so that they can benefit from it. Now, like I mentioned, you can buy the.

On Amazon right now, just click the link and the show notes. So you can go to restored ministry.com/books. Again, that's restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. Now, if you're not ready to buy, you can also get the first chapter for free. Just three easy steps to go to restored ministry. Dot com slash books, click on the button to get the free chapters.

Just fill out your name, your email, and we'll send you the free chapters again. That's restored ministry.com/books, either by the book or get the free chapters today. My guest today is Ashlyn. Frederick Ashlyn was born and raised in Denver, Colorado where me and my wife and my daughter Lucy live right now.

And as one of seven kids, her sisters and brother. Biggest support system and best friends, especially after her parents' divorce. Ashlyn was raised in a conservative, uh, Christian Catholic home, where much of her identity was based on those Catholic values. Through her parents' divorce, Ashlyn has had to reconcile and rediscover her identity and through the process of healing and understanding God's plan for her life.

Ashland made the courageous decision to move to Kansas city, Missouri. This is the first time she has lived away from her family. And the first time she moved without really knowing. Many people in that area are having a job lined up. Ashland has seen the fruits though of this decision has only flourished in Kansas city.

Ashland is now the executive director of a nonprofit in Kansas city called the mission project where she gets to combine her passions of fundraising and working with individuals. With disabilities Ashland also, co-owns a photography business with her boyfriend KJ called Ture it photography. I love this conversation with Ashland.

It's so real. It's so raw. She's so honest. She doesn't pretend to be someone that she's not. She's just honest about where she's struggling right now in her life, but she also shares where she's grown a lot where she's healed. So super refreshing, very hopeful. And like I said, very unfiltered and honest conversation.

So here's my conversation with Ashlyn

Ashlyn. It's so good to have you on the show. I've been looking forward to this for a long time. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited. Now I get to talk about all the depressing stuff that's happened in your life. It's always a yes, a heavy conversation, but it's really a good conversation. I think it offers a lot of hope to a lot of people.

So if you would. Take us back in time. Take us to that day when, uh, your parents separated, let us know. Yeah. How old were you? What happened? Yeah, so my parents actually separated twice, so we, I was in seventh grade, so I was about, I guess I was like 12 or 13 years old. And that was the first time that they separated.

So what happened was, I just remember. Getting home from school and my dad was there alone and he was really upset. I could just tell. He was just off, there was just something wrong. He is a man that doesn't show a lot of emotions. He's very quiet. He doesn't really express his emotions. So for him to be like expressing his sadness was something completely new to me.

And he, we get home from school, all my sisters and I, and he just kind of explained he's like, your mom is going away for a little bit. She did something bad and kind of. Made it seem like my mom was in trouble in some way. And at that age, I didn't understand everything that happened or had gone on behind closed doors.

But from what, what I learned through like private conversations between my parents and from things that my siblings found out by accidentally looking on my mom's cell phone, my mom had had an affair with someone. And so they separated, they didn't divorce at that time. Um, and then probably six months later, my mom moved back in and everything was sort of back to normal as much as it could be back to normal, but ever since then, so 13 years old, my parents had never had a stable relationship after that.

There was always arguing. There was always really hushed conversation, arguments behind closed doors, but we knew what was going on. All my siblings knew what was going on. Then fast forward to the second time that they separated and then eventually got divorced a year later, I was 24, I believe maybe I was younger.

Um, maybe 23 and I had just moved back to Colorado after college and I wasn't living at home at the time, but I was living with a friend very close to my parents' house. And I just remember. My dad called me one day when I was at work. And he was like, Ashton, I need to tell you something. I was like, okay, what's going on?

And I could just tell that again. He was very upset. He was very scared to tell me whatever he had to tell me. He told me that my mom had been arrested for a DUI. So the du DUI kind of launched into him. Going through a bunch of paperwork that my mom had discovering that she had essentially a nine year long affair.

So she never ended the affair that she had when I was 13 years old. And so it was devastating for my family. My mom was kind of, my dad essentially kicked my mom out of the house. because he was just so angry, which understandably. So I don't blame him for his anger. We were all angry and it just really tore my family apart.

So much of like, what I understood to be family was kind of just lost in that moment. Mm-hmm I think it was lost when I was 13 years old when the first initial separation happened, but. This is when it was known that, okay, my parents probably aren't gonna get back together. So my parents lived separately in the same house.

So my mom lived in the basement while my dad lived upstairs for probably six or seven months of their divorce process, their divorce took an entire year and eventually my dad did move out after like seven months of them living separated in the same house. Every time you entered into that house, it was just full of just sadness and very, um, uncomfortable energy.

And I think I really stepped up cuz my mom did have to do, you know, jail time for her DUI. Unfortunately. So I had to kind of step up and help my dad with my younger siblings. Cause I still had siblings living at home that weren't able to drive, but my dad worked full time as a teacher at a different school.

So I kind of stepped up and instead of like grieving the divorce at that time. My grieving period really got delayed. So because I had to take care of my siblings and kind of help my dad work through some of the stuff that he needed to work through in the home life and all of that. Right. So when my parents finally separated for good and got divorced, my, they were finally living separately and it was still very, um, painful to go to my childhood home where my mom was living.

There was still a lot of anger. Mm-hmm I think all of me and my siblings had, and of course my dad still had a lot of anger, so that's kind of what happened and when everything kind of crashed and burned so that's, that's really. My, the background of my parents' relationship and looking back, I don't think that they ever had a very good relationship.

Sure. Yeah. But they hid it very well until I was about 13 years old is when it kind of starting get to get exposed. No. Wow. I can relate so much to really everything you just said. Um, on so many levels. I, yeah. Um, my dad actually had to spend some time in jail as well because he had broken the order of protection that my mom had, um, against him.

So many times that they like. Bumped it up a level to basically make it necessary for him to serve some time. So that is like, yeah, I can relate on that. That, that kind of punches you in the gut. Like, you know, your family has problems, then all of a sudden you're like, wow, I never thought. One of my parents who, you know, you looked up to I'm sure.

I know. I looked up to literally has to serve jail time. It's devastating. And that, isn't the only thing. Right? There's so many things that you said. I, I really, to so much, I know, even now going back to my. Childhood home can be difficult. Sometimes it's easier than others, but there there's a lot of emotions that come up when you're there and all sorts of just messiness, um, messy dynamics with your parents and things like that.

So there's a lot to handle that. I think most people, uh, don't realize my wife recently. Kind of caught on more to the reality of all this. Um, when we visited, uh, my mom's house and she's like, wow, like I never realized that you guys dealt with so much and it cuz it is so hidden. So I, yeah, I, I can relate again on, on so many friends when.

You were going through all of this, you obviously had to step into that parent role. Um, you said you kind of stuffed away a lot of the pain that you were going through and you didn't really have a time to grieve and heal from it. What, how, how else did you react to that aside from stuffing it away? Yeah.

Um, I will first say that me stepping into that kind of parental role was actually a very natural thing for me to do because. for most of my life, my parents kind of put me on a pedestal. I was the only child that really entered into, um, like youth group and really exploring my faith. And so mm-hmm for some reason, I don't know what the reason is, but they.

Thought that, because I was exploring my faith, I was more mature. So they did expect a lot from me. There were times where I had to like help my parents pay the bills. And so it was nothing new to me to step into that role as like a parent. But besides that, I think some of my coping mechanisms or my, the way that I kind of dealt.

And the things that I experienced, I think I was very angry and I definitely took my anger out on my boyfriend at the time. And he didn't deserve that. And that definitely affected our relationship. Obviously we're no longer dating, but mm-hmm, I think just so much anger, like was like boiling over and I.

Know how to express it correctly. And I didn't know how to talk about it because I felt like, especially in the circle that I grew up in, I grew up in a very conservative Christian circle. Mm-hmm divorce was taboo. I mean, you do not get divorced. That's what my parents taught me. And so. There was almost like a sense of shame and fear.

Mm-hmm surrounding the situation that my family found itself in. You know, I, I just remember feeling so afraid that anyone would find out that my parents were getting a divorce. And I was 24 years old. Like I shouldn't have been so afraid of that, but I was, and I was filled with so much shame and I also really kind of started struggling with my relationship with my other siblings.

Like we were all experiencing the same event, but we were all grieving in a different way. And so I couldn't understand their feelings and they couldn't understand my feelings cuz we were all experiencing it in a slightly different way. And. So I, I think it was just kind of grappling with the chaos of it all.

I, I just felt like I was just in a world of chaos and I didn't know how to express it. And so I just kind of ignored it for a long time. I ignored those feelings. I didn't ask for help. I didn't talk about it, cuz I was so embarrassed about my family and I, I even stopped going to my childhood church that I had grown up in.

My family had been that family that everyone knew at that church, you know, there were seven kids in my family. We were like that big Catholic family. Mm-hmm and then all of a sudden you didn't really see us anymore. And I just, I was so embarrassed about that. So I stopped going to that specific church and it was really sad cuz I felt like my sense of community was lost.

I felt like I didn't know who to talk to. Or who I could trust to talk to about it because I was afraid of being judged. Totally. And there were people that did my boyfriend's, my, my ex-boyfriend my boyfriend at that time, his family did kind of have that idea or that judgment that, oh, you know, you're, you're a product of divorce parents.

So that, I think that wow kind of affected me too, because I, they had that idea. And so I thought everyone had that idea. If they didn't have divorced parents. And I felt like somehow some something was wrong with me because my parents were divorced, even though I wasn't the one that made that decision.

Right. You were totally a, a victim in the situation. You had no say over it. And man, I am so sorry. That is to be honest with you really upsetting and, and, you know, I'm sure they didn't mean to hurt you, but. Just like judging you like that, just because you come from a broken home. Uh, it's just not right.

It's not fair. It was just like a lack of understanding. And I mm-hmm even, I didn't understand what was going on with my own family or what was gonna be the outcome. And so then for someone to have even more of a lack of understanding and a lack of compassion, it's just like really difficult because you already feel confused.

mm-hmm, totally, I completely understand what you're saying and I can relate on the anger front as well. It's been something that, you know, I've had to grapple with at different periods of my life. Um, I think it, it is a natural reaction as you know, in the grieving process. That's part of it, just, this anger comes up and I've talked to people who they like can't feel anger for the longest time, for one reason or another, they just kind of feel numb.

And then the flood gets open and they feel all this anger. And that is very overwhelming. I'm just curious on that front. Cause I think there's a lot of people listening right now who do struggle with that. Um, what have you learned to help manage your anger to help deal with it in, in constructive. Yeah, absolutely.

I think the best thing that has helped me is finding a third party. So like a therapist that is not biased, that doesn't know the full story. And just being able to talk to them about those emotions and that anger that you experience. I, I still get angry to this day about my parents and it's been. You know, a few years since my parents got divorced and totally, I still experience that anger sometimes because there are times where I just wish my family was normal.

I just wish that I could not have to celebrate two Christmases or two Easters or have to, when I travel back home to Denver, have to figure out how I'm gonna see both my parents on a weekend trip, you know, and make it fair for the other parent. And I, that makes me angry. and so finding a therapist was probably one of the best things that I could have done for myself.

And it took me a long time to get to that point. I will say it was not easy for me to admit that I needed therapy. It took a long time and I tried so many different therapists and I would go for like maybe two or three sessions, but then we started getting too. and I start had to start actually telling the truth of how I was feeling about things and it scared me.

So I would quit and I would find a new therapist. Now I've been consistently with the same therapist for a while now. And it's been so healing for me, just being able to talk to someone that doesn't know all the nitty gritty that doesn't even know. The people that I'm talking about, you know, they don't know my siblings, they don't know my parents.

So I can really say what is truly on my mind without feeling like I'm venting to a friend, you know, mm-hmm , I think I did try to talk to some of my friends about it and it just wasn't healthy. And I would try to talk to the person I was dating at that time. And it just wasn't healthy because. I would unload all of this stuff and burden them with all this stuff.

When they knew my parents, they knew my family members and it kind of tainted their relationship with my own family, which that's, I don't want that either. So a third party, unbiased person to talk to has been the best thing. And then the other thing is just. Taking time to do the things that I know I enjoy.

For example, I do enjoy painting. I can't say that I'm any good at it, but it's something that I enjoy to do for myself as kind of a therapeutic thing. Sure. So I've kind of made myself a promise that, okay, I will spend one day a week painting or drawing or writing. And those are things that I really enjoy doing.

And it's helped me kind of release some of those built up emotions that. Maybe I haven't talked to someone about yet. So, and then I'm a big runner too. So running has been very therapeutic whenever I feel angry or feeling like, like emotions are building up. Running has been a great thing for me because you can, I can just go on a run and not have to think about it.

And then I kind of forget about it for the day, you know? Totally. And I was able to kind of release it all on that run. So those are just some things that I have learned about myself through the process that I know have helped me a lot. And I hope, and I encourage anyone listening right now to. Do those things as well, just find something that you enjoy and do it once a week.

And then also find someone to talk to. That's not in your friend's circle, not in your family, someone that's external that doesn't know the full story. So good. I love that advice. And I have seen that helpful in my own life too, because I, I think sometimes what happens with me is, um, actually I'm going through a hard time.

Something's happening maybe with my family or some other area of life. And. Maybe I'm down or anxious about it, or just afraid whatever emotion I'm going through, whether it be anger or another. And I think I just start to neglect myself. And then also, I almost forget what it's like to do things that I love.

And then all of a sudden, after maybe like a couple weeks, I'll do something that I love. And I'll. Wow. Like, this is amazing. Like, I feel great. Like, this is so fun to play this sport. Like I love volleyball, for example, you know, at times I go weeks without playing volleyball and then all of a sudden I play volleyball.

I'm like, I need to do this more often. And then I, you know, don't do that. And it's no, it's such good advice. And, uh, it's so simple too. But like you said, with counseling, you might know that you need to do it, but it's a totally different thing to. Do it and stay with it because like you said, sometimes maybe, um, in terms of counseling, at least the emotions can be too intense.

So I admire you for pushing through that and getting to the point that you are. It is not easy. So seriously, I admire you a lot for that. Thank you. I will also say I've also learned how to set boundaries. I. Started realizing every time I would go home, the anger would come back. And I, not that I didn't wanna see my family, but I've come to learn that there are times that it's really hard for me to go back to my childhood home.

Like, like we mentioned earlier, or totally, it's really hard for me to celebrate Christmas, cuz it just doesn't feel the same when the whole, whole family's not together. And so those things like really started to affect me. I would get really angry after going home for a weekend or celebrating a holiday.

And I still visit my family, but I've learned, okay. When I visit Colorado, I'm gonna stay with a friend as opposed to staying at my childhood home mm-hmm and kind of creating that boundary and that balance to recognize, okay. Staying in my childhood home has not been healthy for me at this point. So. I'm gonna say with a friend so that I can enjoy my Christmas so I can enjoy my weekend with my family and catching up with my siblings and my parents, and then having a place to go afterwards.

So I can just kind of process and kind of take the time that I need to kind of rejuvenate after that. So, totally has another piece of advice that I would definitely tell anybody that. Find a different place to stay when you're visiting your family. If it's hard for you to go back home. And experience those emotions all over again.

That's so good. Yeah. You need that space to, like you were saying decompress and another trend I've noticed in my own life. And a lot of the people that we work with through sword is that when we're in those scenarios, being at home, we tend to just neglect our basic needs. Like we don't sleep as much, or we just don't.

How we should, or like you said, exercise and do all those basic things that we should be doing to take care of ourselves, but for one reason or another, we just tend to neglect our needs. So I think if you create that physical space, like you're saying, you're probably more likely to get better sleep to, you know, maybe get a workout in, eat a little bit of healthier.

Um, so I think, I think that's really wise. I wanted to circle back to the affair. Yes. So that is such a huge. Thing in your life, not just, you know, between your mom and your dad, how specifically did that affect you then? And even now? Yeah, I mean, it definitely, obviously the OB most obvious thing is that it definitely broke my trust and understanding of what true marriage is.

It didn't make sense to me that, you know, 26 years ago, my parents stood on the altar. Said their vows made all these promises to each other and then they didn't keep it. I still am confused by that. It makes me weary of marriage. It makes me kind of scared of marriage around the time that my parents were getting divorced.

I was also going through a breakup with an ex-fiance. And he was cheating on me too. So that combined with my parents, you know, that my parents scandal and all of that, it was, it made me question relationships a lot. And I just didn't really trust anybody moving forward. So after my parents got divorced and I started dating again, I just, just didn't really ever open myself up to anyone because I didn't want to get to the point.

Of, you know, essentially falling in love again and then down the road being cheated on because I, in my head, I thought just everybody cheated , you know? Yeah. I just thought that it was normal behavior because that's what had been shown to me essentially since I was 13 years old. And. Even still now I'm in a very stable, healthy relationship.

We've been dating for two years, even now. I still am like afraid that I'm gonna find out that he cheated on me, even though he has never indicated that he is not that type of person at all. He's the most loyal person I've ever met, but it's still just kind of like a question in the back of my head, like, oh my gosh, what if this happens again?

What if this is truly the behavior of everybody in this world? and I think too, I just don't really trust my mom very much with a lot. Like I just don't really tell her much. So it does affect my relationship with my mom, just honestly, it, it definitely makes me weary about sharing details about my own life and personal details about my own life with her.

Because one of the things that kind of happened when we discovered that my mom had an affair again. My sister, one of my sisters, she had later on shared with us that she knew that my mom. Had been cheating on my dad for however long she was, but that my mom had convinced her to not say anything. And so knowing that really affected me too, because it just seemed like we were kind of taught and raised to lie.

Like we were taught that it's okay to lie. And I know that rationally, it's not okay to lie. So I'm also afraid that, oh my gosh, what if I become like my mom? You know, I'm always afraid of being like my parents and I, I know myself well enough to know that I would never cheat on my significant other, or I would never cheat on someone or lie to someone mm-hmm , but it's still in the back of my head.

Like what if I become like that? Because that's kind of the home that I was raised in. Totally. No, and I have so many of those same fears too, and kind of in the back of my head, even though I know my wife is, you know, a good woman and she's faithful and everything like that, I ask a lot of those same questions even now, you know, years into marriage.

And it's something that has gotten much better with time. It's not like I'm walking around constantly thinking like, oh, she must be cheating on me or she's gonna just up and leave. But it does, it scars you on such a deep level that it's hard to maybe ever. I don't wanna say ever, but maybe ever get that totally outta your system.

Mm-hmm and I, I think we can progress to such a point where it's not a major concern or maybe even it isn't even a concern at all, but man, you can't undo that. You just can't undo that. And I totally get that. That would be in the back of your mind, even though the guy you're with is a great guy. Yeah. And you are a good woman and you wouldn't do that, but there's that fear.

I know that I feel. And so many people like us feel of repeating. What we saw our parents do. Mm-hmm and, uh, it can be very debilitating. It can be, it can be very much so I wanna, uh, switch over to relationships. You've already talked quite a bit about that, but I am curious, uh, in what other ways that maybe we haven't discussed yet, have you seen your relationship broken marriage?

You know, eventually their divorce affect your own dating relationships. Yeah. So I kind of touched on it a little bit, but after I, after my parents got divorced and I started dating again, it just definitely made me never really enter fully into a relationship. So with that being said, like, I definitely, um, struggled with my modesty and my purity because.

I was, I think I was trying to fill whatever wounds my parents had caused, but then the next easy step was just to leave after that, you know? And I think also it definitely makes me question if I ever truly, truly, truly wanna get married, I do wanna get married. I know that, but I think it makes, I am afraid of marriage.

And so. In any relationship that I had that was longer than, you know, six months marriage always came up as like a topic of conversation. And it just always made me very anxious. I, I had so much anxiety about that topic and it really took. A long time for me to kind of get over that anxiety in my new, in my current relationship, not new, we've been dating for two years, but, but then on the same hand, like token on this other hand, I wanted to get married so bad because I didn't want the person to leave.

Mm-hmm . So on one hand I was terrified of it because I didn't wanna repeat my parents' mistake, but I also put the pressure on to whoever I was dating that we needed to get married because we need to. Solidify this we can't, you know, you can't leave. Those are just two really extreme, unhealthy ways of thinking and, and dealing with a relationship.

I think I just kind of allowed myself to be used a lot by men, unfortunately, because I just didn't really see a lot of value in myself because of the same phrase, like, oh, I'm just a product of divorce, you know? Like I'm worth nothing else because I'm a product of divorce. There's clearly something wrong with me.

And that affected so many of my relationships, my current boyfriend, I mean, probably for the entire first year of us dating, he was so patient with me and he was so patient with my insecurities because. Day after day, he had to like, try to convince me that I was worth more mm-hmm and that's a really sad reality, but it's also really beautiful that he was so patient with me and stayed with me through all of that.

Until I could start believing it for myself. Mm-hmm , that's beautiful. I think even though it was really hard to get to that point, something really beautiful did come of it. You know, not all people are that patient and they probably get really sick of people being insecure and not having a lot of confidence, but he was very patient and he was very.

Encouraging. And he did give me a lot of, like, he basically gave me a confidence boost because of how well he treats me and how, how much he just cherishes me. And I have never really found that because I was just kind of throwing myself at these guys that I would be UN dating apps. Totally. I wasn't respecting myself in those relationships.

Then I met my current boyfriend and I slowly started to respect myself because he respected me. I think that's suddenly how it affected my, my relationships. And, and then also just like how I've grown from that. Sure. As well. No, that's amazing. And I think it's a good lesson to anyone listening who maybe doesn't come from a broken home, but they're dating someone from a broken home or maybe they're married to someone from a broken home.

It does require a lot of patience. Like I know same thing with my wife. She, you know, just had to go slower with me. I wasn't as quick to trust as some people are. And it was, yeah, I. Was afraid, really afraid and dealt with, like you said, crippling anxiety, um, at times about this whole topic of marriage and just so much fear of repeating what I saw in my parents' marriage.

Just not wanting that. And like you said, kind of going between those two extremes on, on one hand, just wanting to run the other way when it came to marriage. And on the other hand, um, honestly I struggled. Idealizing marriage just making it into completely the opposite of what I saw in my family and wanting that for myself to a point where it got like unrealistic.

It's like, no, that's not what it's meant to be. That's not real. That's not human. That's something else. It's some ideal that just doesn't exist in this world. And so I. I, uh, dealt with that too. And so I think it's good for people who don't come from our backgrounds to really listen to what you're saying here and understand that, okay.

Like there's not something wrong in the sense that this person you're dating has just like the only one in the world who feels this way. And it experiences these emotional problems and these fears and all that. No, it's actually pretty typical for people like us. And it does require a lot of virtue, a lot of patience, like you said, but your continued love, of course, assuming this is what, where you're meant to be, um, is incredibly healing.

That there's so much beauty to that. Obviously it's not supposed to be the primary source of our healing, but it it's such a huge part of it. and, and it has been in, in my marriage too. And I'm so happy to hear that you, um, you, you have a boyfriend like you do, it's, it's really, really beautiful going back to coping.

So you mentioned some, you know, the unhealthy ways that you had coped. Was there anything else you wanted to add on that front? Yeah, I mean, I definitely also coped with alcohol alcohol, a very big coping mechanism for me. When I lived in Denver still, I lived with a few of my close friends and we would throw parties at my house all the time.

And they, I mean, we were in the young adult Catholic community, so it was always other Catholics. You know, we would throw a Halloween party or a Mardi girl party, but I really used those social events to drink a lot. And it was because I just could not deal with the anxiety. And the anger and the sadness that I felt over my family.

So alcohol was kind of like my escape for a long time until I moved to Kansas city. When I moved to Kansas city, I only had one other friend here. And so my drinking kind of just stopped because, well, there was no one to drink with, I wasn't throwing parties anymore. Yeah. And I actually had to feel the emotions that I had been holding onto for so long and covering up with alcohol and.

You know, I had a few slipups here and there, but I also realized that, okay, you know, the history of my family, my mom had a DUI. I don't think that she was ever technically an alcoholic. Maybe she was like a closet alcoholic, but just the fact that she got a DUI shows that. This might be something that I struggle with.

Maybe I need to take a step back and not drink for a while. So I had committed to. A year of sobriety. Um, actually just a few months ago, like back in July, I was like, okay, I'm gonna commit to a year of sobriety. And God is really funny because a week after I made that commitment, I found out that I was pregnant.

So , you know, I just think it's really funny the way in which God is like giving me grace, because I don't know if I could have done a year of sobriety, but now I have to, because you know, I'm carrying a child and I. Not drinking alcohol for the past few months has been just so eye opening. Like I'm actually sticking with therapy for the first time in, in my entire life.

I'm actually able to express my emotions in a healthy way and then cope with them in a healthy way, instead of just being like, okay, like it's Friday night, like let's go out and drink. And not that alcohol is bad. But totally. Yeah, for me, it was definitely a coping mechanism instead of stopping at one or two drinks, I would drink three, four or five, you know, and, and that was just really unhealthy for me.

And it was my way of just numbing myself. So I couldn't feel. The confusion and the anxiety that my family's situation made me feel totally. And I think it's just, it's so common on so many fronts in our culture for people, our age to, you know, just go out and have fun and. Drink and get drunk and all that.

So it's, you're, you're definitely doing something, um, so good for yourself and I just commend you for it. It's it's amazing. And I think so many of us have different ways of coping. Like for one person, it might be alcohol for another person. It might be porn for another person might be cutting it. There's just so many different, uh, different things that we fall into that just aren't, you know, good for us at.

Some of the things that are done in excess other things that maybe should just never be done, but that's amazing. And I wish you luck in I'm sure. I know you're gonna do great. Thank you with, uh, with getting through that. That is not an easy thing. What, uh, what you mentioned counseling, you mentioned running, you mentioned a few other.

Things that you've done, like painting to help you cope and heal. Uh, was there anything else that's been really instrumental in your own healing process? Yeah, actually moving to Kansas city was really instrumental. I had kind of discerned and prayed about moving to Kansas city for probably about six months before I actually committed to moving here.

And one of my fears about moving was, well, I grew up in Denver. My entire family is in Denver. I need to be. Near my family in case something happens, but it wasn't until my sister, she lived in Ireland for a year and I went to go visit her when she was over in Ireland. And I was just kind of telling her, I was like, I'm just like not happy in Denver.

I feel so much anxiety living there. I feel so much pressure that I have to like be the sibling that takes care of my younger siblings. And I just feel like I haven't had any time to like really. Figure out how I'm feeling and how I'm dealing with the divorce. And I was telling my sister all of this and she's just listening.

She's like, Ashlyn, why don't you just move? And at first I was like, no, no, no. Like I can't do that. I can't move. And she was like, Ashlyn. I moved across the world, you know, and it's been so totally healing for me and not to say that you should run away from your problems, but there is something to be said about creating your own independent life.

And I had not been able to do that since my parents got divorced. You know, I had been thrown into this parental role. I had been thrown into just making sure that all my siblings were okay and making sure that nothing else in my family broke. I think ultimately my sister was like, you should just do it.

Like this is gonna help you. You're not running away from your problems. Your siblings are still gonna be there. You can still be a support system for your siblings, but you need to be your own support system for a little bit. Six months later, I moved to Kansas city and I just didn't even realize how healing that would be because now I can really, truly.

Have that distance that I needed. Mm-hmm to be able to process everything that had gone on the last few years, cuz I had like no time to process it until I moved two years ago. And I think it's been just been so instrumental because I don't think that if I had ever moved, I don't think I would have gone to therapy as long as I have.

I don't think I would've been honest about my feelings. And then also another thing that I'll mention is. Through moving to Kansas city and knowing how to like name my emotions and name my struggles and name my wounds by, by name, you know, identifying my wounds. That's helped me in my current relationship because now I'm able to be honest about this is really bothering me.

Mm, in my relationship, like, I can be honest with him about, you know, this isn't sitting right with me and we need to talk about it. Right. Whereas two years ago I could have never done that. Cuz I was not able to talk about my own. Feelings or anything. And I think moving to Kansas city really was a launching path for me to be able to truly open up my heart, to healing and opening up my heart to honesty and being honest with myself, cuz I don't think I was being honest with my myself and.

You know, it's not to blame Denver or to blame my family, but, you know, sure. I had kind of taken this role upon myself while I was living in Denver. I needed to be like the one that protected my family. And that's just the furthest from the truth. I never needed to do that. And I think moving to Kansas city kind of proved that because I learned that I can be independent while also still supporting my siblings.

Um, I can be an independent person that expresses their emotions in a healthy way without having to shove them away and not express them. So mm-hmm, moving to Kansas city has just been such a saving grace for me. So good. And I think there's an important lesson in what you just said about moving away.

Don't feel guilty guys. Like if you need to do that for a time again, I think Ashlyn's wise to balance that advice by saying you don't wanna just do it to run away from your problems, but you might need some space and that's okay. You don't need to feel guilty about it. You can do that and you can so love your family from afar.

Um, in different ways and that's exactly what you're trying to do, Ashland. I know that's what I'm trying to do, cuz my family is from the Chicagoland area and, and I don't live out there. And part of the reason I moved away too, was because it was a lot to handle. And the thing I felt most guilty about, I think was, uh, my siblings like feeling like I was just abandoning them.

But what I've realized over the years is that me pursuing. What I'm called to do in life, both in work and in my, you know, marriage now, it was really, um, good. Not only for me, but for my siblings too, for to model, hopefully for them, not that my wife and I have a perfect marriage, we have our struggles for sure.

But to some model for them like, Hey, you can have this too. Like, you don't need to be afraid of it. You can have it too. And it can be really good and it can be really beautiful. And I, I think in the long run, looking at kind of the long game, um, Doing, what I did was really good and healthy. Not only for me, but also for, for all of them as well.

And again, it's not like you're just walking away guys and never talking to your family. Again. Certainly there are situations where you need to take a break from talking to maybe one or both parents, or even relatives, perhaps even siblings too, but take the time and the space you need. Again, you're gonna become a healthier, more whole person so that in the future, you can be better at loving them setting boundaries and doing all those things that we need to do to navigate this really messy reality in our lives.

So such a good lesson Ashlyn, and I, I wanted to ask you too. Now that you've been working through a lot of this, I'm sure you would say that you're still work in progress and I am too. But how, how's your life different now that you've been through doing therapy and doing all those things that you mentioned?

Yeah, I think my, my life is just so much more stable, I think. Um, now that I'm not spending every weekend drinking and partying and. You know, coping with my emotions in an unhealthy way. And then also, because I've had kind of like that time and space away from my parents, I have been able to form better relationship with my parents for a while.

I didn't even talk to my mom. I didn't want anything to do with her. Um, and then like after a little bit, I didn't even talk to my dad for a while. And now I, I do think that my relationships with both my, my parents, they both improved. And I, I don't think that that would've ever happened if I had never taken the steps to enter into therapy and just learn how to set boundaries.

And my life is just so much more peaceful. I think too, you know, I, I'm not having to kind. Fight with my parents out of protection for my siblings and mm-hmm , um, I think that's just really powerful. It's just a really, my life is just so much more peaceful. And I wouldn't say that it's happier. I mean, there are difficult times still, and I still struggle with my parents divorce as I'm sure I will for the rest of my life, but I've, I've also grown to kind of appreciate my family in a different way.

My both my parents are remarried or my mom's getting remarried in November, so, okay. I've, I've been able to like, kind of welcome new members to my family, you know, my step parents and I don't call them my step parents, but that's what they are, you know, but I've been able to like welcome these people into my life and.

Kind of opened my heart to new people, even though I may not agree with it. I may not agree that my parents got divorced and I will always wish that my parents were still married, but I also recognize, okay, if this is making my, my dad happy or is this person's making my mom happy, then I'm gonna be happy for them.

And I will do everything I can to still have a relationship with my parents for a while. I thought I was gonna completely cut my parents out of my life. . But I also realized that that wasn't healthy either. Like that's not what I desired either. And I do understand that some people have to do that with their family members or what have you.

But I know that my parents still love me and they will still do anything and everything for me. if I needed it. So I was just never willing to completely cut them out of my life. Mm-hmm so I, I made it a goal of mine to just have a more peaceful relationship with them. And it has, it has been like that because I've been able to set the boundaries that I need to set.

I've been able to tell them when they cross a boundary mm-hmm and now we just have a more adult respectful relationship. Where I respect them, they respect me and we are able to just kind of live our own lives and then come together when it's a holiday and celebrate that holiday in peace. Instead of talking about the divorce or talking like angry at each other, or, you know, stuff like that.

All the things I, I get you. Yeah. That's beautiful. You've come a long way and I'm sure there's even more ahead for you. Um, if you stay on this path of healing really, really beautiful. Uh, I did wanna ask you, you've been a member of resorts community for the longest time. I'm just curious. Uh, what's been most helpful, um, for you that, that we've done, that we've produced that we've provided.

Yeah, absolutely. I. Hearing all the stories that you guys have shared on the podcast and then reading all the stories from the blog, and then I've actually gotten connected and made friendships with a few of the other members. It it's just helped me realize that I'm not alone and that, you know, my story is not that abnormal.

It's not that different than a lot. And I, because I think at the time when my parents got divorced, I thought, my gosh, my family must be the only family that. Is this messy, you know, you kind of feel like you're the only one. Totally. That's not true. Like the reality is, is this is a very sad reality for a lot of families.

And so to know that my story can be shared with other people and they are also sharing their story with me just has helped me heal tremendously. It also has provided kind of like a sounding board for my, for myself, like. Saying, am I crazy to feel this way? And someone saying no, that that's a product of, you know, that's the consequences of being a victim from a divorce.

Like we are victims and recognizing that we are not at fault and that this was something that was done to us has just been so powerful in my own life. And. Allowing myself to say, yeah, I'm struggling with this. What do you guys think that is just tremendously helpful for me to be able to have my feelings acknowledged by, by this community.

I mean, it really has become a community for me, a very. Healing community for me. And I just really appreciate how everything that I share through from my own experiences, that's just acknowledged and accepted. And then I'm given encouragement to keep moving forward. Amazing. Thanks for sharing that I don't mean to too around horn.

I just did wanna know kind of what's been helpful and what maybe hasn't been, but so good. And we'll link to, uh, some of the articles that, um, Ashlyn has written. So you guys can check those out. You're, uh, a good writer Ashlyn. And I remember the latest article that you shared, just talking about your story, um, was really powerful and beautiful, and that actually led to this interview.

So thank you for, for coming on. Thank you for being here. If people wanna connect with you, if they wanna talk with you, what's the best way to. Yeah. Um, just find me on Facebook. My name is Ashlyn Frederick, or you can, I mean, if you're in the restored group on Facebook, you can find me through that and just Facebook message me.

I'm also on Instagram, but I honestly don't know my Instagram handle. No worries. So, let me look it up really quick. Oh, it's Ashland underscore Kayla and Kayla is spelled K a I L a H. So you can definitely find me on Instagram as well, or just email Joey and he can get us connected as well. Yeah. Sounds great.

Happy to do that. And, um, yeah, we'll throw all that in the show notes for you guys, so you can contact Ashton if you'd like to, and there's a good incentive to, uh, join the ReSTOR community. You can talk. Ashley connect with, uh, the other people there, cuz there's, we're met over 50 people at this point. Um, and we're constantly we're, we're not constantly, I should say we're recently trying to find better ways to make the community even more valuable.

So lots of cool things coming, uh, in an upcoming months and year. Uh, so Ashton, thank you so much for being here. I wanna give you the last word. Um, you're, you're very wise. You have a lot of good things to say very articulate. So I'm really glad that, uh, you're able to join us and share, um, your story and your advice with our audience.

But I do wanna give you the last word. And so the question is this, uh, what words of encouragement would you give to someone who is listening right now feels really just broken and they feel stuck in life because of their parents' broken marriage, their divorce separation. What advice would you give.

Yeah, first and foremost, I will just say that you're not alone and that it's, it's okay to feel the way that you're feeling and you should acknowledge those feelings and allow yourself to feel those, but don't dwell in them for too long. I will also say that it does get better. Give yourself grace, be patient with yourself.

Allow yourself to explore healthy ways of healing that work for you, whether that's going for a run or going to therapy, I would encourage everyone. That's been through something like this to go through therapy, even if it's just for a few months, therapy is just something that's. Kind of taboo in our society, but it has really truly been the most helpful thing for me.

So I would just encourage you and anyone who's gone through this to just try to explore it and give it some time, um, to work, but also just know that there is a community for you in restored and that any member would be willing to talk to you. If you just need someone to vent, to, or ask questions to.

Find find a community like that. What maybe it's not restored, but I hope it is. But if it just find a community where you can truly talk about these things, cuz I think sharing your story is so important for healing and it's helped me with my own healing journey and I encourage you to just share your own story.

Because it will help aid in your healing.

If you wanna email Ashlyn, her email is in the show notes, or you can hit her up on social. Again, all those links are in the show notes. A question for you to think about when you're hurting, how do you deal with it? Give that some thought, try to identify the ways that you deal with your pain, that you deal with your problems.

You might be surprised most of us, I think, think that we know how we deal with our pain. We know how we deal with our problems, but if you actually kind of study it, you'll realize that there might be some unhealthy things going on. So first, just try to recognize that. And then you can make a plan to deal with them and to cope healthy ways instead of unhealthy ways.

So again, when you're hurting, How do you deal with it? If you wanna join ReSTORs online community, you can do that in three easy steps. Just go to ReSTOR ministry.com/community. Again, ReSTOR ministry.com/community. You'll just fill out a form and then we'll add you to the group. And some of the benefits to joining is you'll have a safe place to speak.

Openly about the pain and struggles that you face. And this is with people who get you, who come from broken homes as well, young people who come from broken homes, it will help you not feel so alone and will also challenge you to grow into a better, stronger person. Again, if you wanna join our online community, just go to ReSTOR ministry.com/community.

If you wanna share your story with restored, we'd love. To read it. And what we'll do is we'll turn it into an anonymous blog article, but some of the benefits first reflecting on your story is actually healing on a neurobiologic level. It makes you healthier, makes your brain healthier. Writing your story specifically is also healing.

There's been studies that have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events. In their lives are less depressed. They're less anxious, they're healthier and they're happier and so much more. And if you share your story with someone who is able to receive it, empathetically, it's actually healing as well on a neuro biological level.

And then also it gives guidance and hope to people like you, who come from a similar background who are maybe struggling as well. And so again, if you wanna share your story, just go to restored ministry.com/story restored ministry. Dot com slash story. There's a form there. That's gonna guide you in telling a short version of your story.

It takes a little bit of time to do, but not much at all. And then we'll turn that story into an anonymous blog article and we'll share with our audience. So share your story now. Restored ministry.com/story. The resources mentioned during the show notes ever stored ministry.com/ 55. Thank you so much for listening.

If this has been useful, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' separation divorce, or even their broken marriage, share this podcast with them, I know it's gonna be helpful. And always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#054: How to Stop Damaging Yourself with Your Words | Chris Stefanick

If you spoke to your friends the way you spoke to yourself, would those relationships become abusive? The words you tell yourself are often filled with lies, but you might not even realize it.

But those lies become your identity, which then dictates the quality and happiness of your life. Thankfully, our guest today can help you beat the lies and discover your real identity. In this episode, we discuss:

• Why it is so important to uncover the lies you believe about yourself

• How it’s simple yet difficult to replace those lies with the truth

• Two tactics and resources you can use today to change the way you talk to yourself and renew your identity

Buy Chris’s book: I AM: Rewrite Your Name—Reroute Your Life

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

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• I AM: Rewrite Your Name—Reroute Your Life

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

I have a question for you. If you spoke to your friends, the way that you talk to yourself, what would happen? Would you even have any friends for so many of us, those relationships would quickly turn abusive, but the problem is most of us don't even realize how badly we talk to ourselves. The subconscious second nature.

The words we say inside our heads are often filled with lies that we're not even aware of, but those lies told and believed long enough become our identity, which then dictates the quality direction and happiness of our lives. Does that sound important? It absolutely is. Thankfully my guest today can help you discover the lies.

You tell yourself and find your real identity. And don't worry, we're not talking about some phony self-help strategy with no substance. This stuff is actually helpful. You're gonna get a lot out of this episode, like learning why it's so important to uncover the lies you believe about yourself, how it's simple yet.

Difficult to replace those lives with the truth. And you're gonna get two tactics and two resources that you can use today to change the way you talk to yourself and discover your true identity. This is a very relevant topic for those of us who come from broken families. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce. Separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host joy. Elli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 54 before I introduce my guests. I'm so excited to share with you guys that the book I've written for you is now live on Amazon.

You can buy it there, but first, a little background on the book. The sad truth is that most teenagers and young adults from broken families are traumatized by their parents' divorce or separation, but nobody gives them the guidance. They need to navigate the pain and problems. And without that guidance, they continue to struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles, and much more.

And I experienced this stuff firsthand. I experienced this exact problem growing up and it really shouldn't be this way. My new book is an answer to that problem. The title is it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. And it features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges.

By young people like us from broken families in the book. I answer questions like I struggle with low self-esteem. How can I become more confident after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted, inadequate, and even rejected as something wrong with me. Self-harm is my way of coping. How do I stop?

How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage? I feel broken. Like something's wrong with me? How can I heal and feel whole again, what can I do to heal my relationship with my parents? Why does God let bad things like my parents to force happen? And if you read the book and you implement the advice in your life, you're gonna see a lot of benefits such as you're gonna learn how to cope with your pain in healthy ways.

Instead of unhealthy ways, you'll become a better, stronger, more virtuous person. You'll learn how to overcome emotional problems. You'll be given tactics to build healthy. Relationships, you're gonna find evidence based strategies that you can use to heal. You'll learn how to navigate your relationship with your parents.

You'll improve your relationship with God. You'll make better decisions that build a better future for yourself. And most importantly, you'll be given tools and resources to get the help that you need. And guys. This is not theory. This is practical down to earth. Common sense advice. That's based on research, expert, advice and stories that we've heard from people like you, people who come from broken families.

And this book is specifically written for anyone who comes from a broken home, especially teenagers and young adults whose parents are divorced, separated, or really struggling in their marriage. And if that's not you, you probably love or lead someone who comes from a broken family. Maybe that's your kids, a cousin, a boyfriend, a girlfriend, perhaps you lead them as a pastor youth minister.

Teacher, coach, whatever this book makes an awesome gift, it really gives them guidance or gives you deeper insight into what they're struggling with. So you can help them. You can buy the book on Amazon right now. Just click the link in the show notes, or you can search. It's not your fault on Amazon. Plus if you order the paper back in September, 2021, you'll get the ebook in audiobook for free.

And to claim those free bonuses, just go to restored ministry.com/books. Again, restored. Dot com slash books, click on the September bonus button, fill out that form and then we'll email you the free ebook and audiobook. If you're not ready to buy, you can get the first chapters free. It's really easy. Just go to ReSTOR ministry.com/books.

Click on the button to get the free chapters. Fill out your name, your email, and then we'll send you the free chapters again. Restored ministry.com. Books. I'm so excited to share this book with you. We've been working on it for a long time and the feedback we've gotten so far has been really solid. So I know it's gonna be helpful for you.

A good tool, good resource to help you navigate the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. Again, you could get the free chapters that restored ministry.com/books or buy the book on Amazon today. My guest today is Chris. Chris is an internationally acclaimed author, speaker and television host, who has devoted his life to inspiring people to live a bold contagious faith Chris's live seminars, reach more than 85,000 people per year.

His reality TV shows videos. And radio spots reach millions of people and his educational initiatives are turning the tide in the Catholic church. He authored the chosen confirmation program, which has already formed more than 500,000 teens. Chris is actually a graduate of the same university that I went to Franciscan university of Stoneville.

He's also the founder and president of real life Catholic and nonprofit, which operates as the headquarters for Chris's various initiative. Above all. Chris is proud to be the husband to his wife, Natalie father, to their six children and grandfather to his granddaughter. Don't wanna make you wait any longer.

Here's my conversation with Chris Stephanic

Chris. Thanks so much for making time to be here with us today. May it's an honor. Thank you for having me. I think this is such a relevant topic for people, especially who come from broken families. And in the book you say that there's a war of words happening in your mind. The outcome of that war.

Determines your destiny. That's a bold statement. What do you mean by that? Uh, the, uh, the devil's real victory in our life. We, we think it's maybe a sin we committed for some, uh, wound we're suffering from, or, or, or something hard we've been through. No, I, I don't. The real victory is when we experience a, a difficulty or commit a sin and then label our.

Based on that, because then we continue to live out of that identity for the rest of our lives. You know, the, the way we speak to ourselves and the way we talk to ourselves and label ourselves shapes how we feel, which shapes how we act, which shapes how our entire life pens out. So really the, so many of the, the spiritual battles we face.

So many of the personal battles with getting to the next level. In relationships in career in happiness. So many of it comes back to when you dig deep enough, how you see. How you talk to yourself, it's that war, that fundamental war of words that determines really the outcome of your life. Mm-hmm uh, and, and a brother.

We, we, we really, we really can't get it wrong. We can't keep getting it wrong, you know, and I'm so tired of seeing people get it wrong. And you could tell there's times where I'm getting it. When people are walking through life, looking like they got the crap beat out of them. When they look tired and heavy.

It's so often because we're beating ourselves up on the inside and God's word tells us who we are. I mean, if you're a child of God, if you believe the things in the Bible, you actually believe the maker, you believe you're you're, you're crazy enough to believe that this universe didn't come from nothing.

That there's a. And that he loves you. If you're a Bible believing Christian, that that's the really crazy, amazing, beautiful part that makes life beautiful. And, and then he would die for you. If, if you just believe that as a matter of faith and leave it at church and don't let it inform the dialogue happening inside your head, you're not really experiencing a redeemed life.

And I'm just so tired of seeing the people of God look so tired we should look different. Absolutely. I think a lot of the people that we work with that restored often just feel so hopeless. And I think this ties into that. So well, I'm curious, what are some of the most common things that people say to themselves that distort their identity?

So I, I, I wrote a book about this called I am, and I have a program, a 33 day challenge program called I am. And the, the book goes through various wrong identities and, uh, replaces the, the lives, tell ourselves with God's work. And the, uh, the, the program is a little more focused in, in a straightforward journey.

And, uh, it's man, I'll tell you there's it, it could be any number of lies. I mean, I, I, I kind of pinpoint a couple key ones just to help people form the habit of becoming aware of what's going on inside so they could pinpoint their particular lie. But I, but I really think that whatever God is calling you to, however, he's calling you to glorify him, to magnify him forever.

The evil one sees that, and he tries to help you come up with a name for yourself that directly opposes. It's a matter of finding out what lie you're telling yourself, finding the opposing truth, and then engaging your will in the process, learning to start renouncing that lie and claiming the truth. And I, I think of Peter, it was one of my favorite scripture stories about this.

Here's Peter called to be the chief of the apostles that the first Pope of, if you're Catholic, you believe he's called be the first Pope. If you're not even a believer, you clearly think this guy's called to be a great leader. First time he encounters Jesus, he says, get away from me. I'm a sinful. So he named himself, he named himself sinful man.

He told Jesus his name and he, he did this in a moment where he could see that he was being singled out and called. He'd get away from me, Lord. I'm a simple, you got the wrong guys. What he was saying. I don't measure up. There was a lot packed into that statement and his name was Simon at the time and Jesus changed his name and he changed his name in a place called Caesar Philippi, where there's this humongous rock overshadowing, this town.

And I've been there. It's, it's, it's a mind blowing place and it's not part of the, it was not part of the Jewish community. It was a pagan. It was on the board of Lebanon. So there was no reason for them to even go here and it probably took a day and a half just to walk there. Jesus took a lot of time thinking about this location.

yeah. And, and, and went way out of the way it was, it was the opposite direction from Jerusalem to Galilee way outta the way, just to get this image in Peter's head. Peter you named yourself, you name yourself sinful, man. I have a new name for you, right in front of that massive rock named him, Peter, which means rock.

And why, why would he do that? Why would he go through the trouble? Because he was gonna make him the chief of the church in the early church, the, the, the fir the first folk. He wanted his identity to form how he led, how he acted, how he felt. He knew that everything hinges first and foremost on how Peter saw himself.

And he wanted that. To stick in his brain. Every time someone said his name, every single. You massive rock passing the fish. a little dramatic, right? Right. Yeah. I'm, God's, God's dramatic. Like that love is dramatic. Yeah. So, uh, that's an essential thing, but what, what is it for you? And for me, you know, is God calling you to lead the God that even one wants to convince you you're incapable or you're weak, but there's all, there's certain ways that God is, is calling all of us.

You know, we, all of us are, are, are blessed. I mean, our, our eternal state of being is gonna be eternal blessedness. And the even one wants to convince us that we're forgotten or we're cursed. I mean, all these lies circle around people's heads. That that have nothing to do with what God sees us. And when you disagree with God, the maker of all things about who you are and what you're worth in that equation, you're the one who's wrong.

yeah, absolutely. There's no way you can be right there. I, I think this seems simple on the surface, Chris. But once you start talking about it and think about it, I think it's a little trickier than it seems because so often I think the lies that we tell ourselves become so second nature, they're just subconscious they're there.

And so unless you really take time to go through your IM book or the course or something similar where you're doing some deep reflection on this, it can just pass over your head. I know for myself, one of the things that I catch myself doing often just on a subconscious level again, It's calling myself an idiot.

Like, are you idiot? You know, I do. I make a mistake. I do something wrong. You're you idiot, you idiot. So I think there's a real need to dive into this. It can't just be something that oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I get what you're saying. I shouldn't be mean to myself. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's simple, but simple is not easy.

Right. In fact, it's very difficult to boil things down to the simple again and much of our lives. We're trying to get back to the simple within marriage. We're crying out loud. Oh, Nothing could look simpler. I love this person. She loves me. I wanna give my life to her. She wants to give her life to me.

the amazing thing. Is it actually, is that simple? But it's not easy to keep it, that, that simple and to work through all the crap that comes in the way of keeping it, that simple, that wants to destroy that, that, that beauty, that pure crystal line beauty , but that's, that's the, uh, the same journey as the, I am, you know, there's, there is a simplicity that I, I want to introduce people to, because most people, they, they don't win this battle cuz they don't even know that they're in it.

They don't show up. We're we're passive recipients of the things that go on in our heads is that St. Paul two Corinthians 10, we take captive every thought and make it obedient to Christ. I think that's a call from, from God's word to say, Hey dude, wake up. You know, people start to despair because they, they conclude there.

I, I can't win this battle. This is just how I am. So I'm just gonna sit here in. Just after years and years of telling yourself something, you just start to believe that on such a deep level, that it's really difficult. It can be difficult to change it. It can, uh, it takes a lot of vigilance for me whenever I feel literally punched in the gut.

I, I realize my old lies are coming up and, and I, and sometimes I feel like I'm gutted literally gutted and I, I'm not aware. That where it's coming from. But then I have to say, oh, this is, this is coming from somewhere. This feeling in the gut's coming from some, oh, I'm, I'm buying into the lies that I whispered so quietly to myself.

I don't, I don't even know I'm doing it anymore. Time to, to name it time, to renounce it, time to claim the truth. Again, again, again, until I PR keep practicing. It's like going into the boxing ring man, and keep punching back until it becomes second nature. That's right. That's right. And you start to. And your life starts to take a new shape.

My book's helpful. The program's helpful. Sometimes counseling is helpful to help people unpack more, you know, whatev whatever you need. Just, failure's not an option though. Losing in this. Battle's not an option. Yeah. So true. I think for some of us, if we treated other people, the way that we talked to ourselves, it would be an abusive relationship.

We'd have no friends, so, oh yeah. Yeah. Note, what are one or two tactics that everyone listening right now can use to change the way that they talk to themselves? Obviously the book and the course go into it in much more depth, but what's one or two quick things that people can use right now. Yeah. It really boils down to number one, realize that you are talking to yourself.

You know, we think without thinking about what we're thinking, realize that you are labeling yourself. There is a way you've decided to see yourself as a narrative that you tell yourself about who you are and, and it does. And, and you do have power over. So that's, that's, that's two you that you're not a passive recipient in the, in this story, you have to enter the battle.

Um, so show up for it. , mm-hmm, show up for that battle and, and, uh, it really the, the, all this, both the book and the program, and so much of counseling. Again go if you need it, but I might be able to save you many thousands of dollars.

so much of it really lands on identifying, naming how you're lining yourself. And then engaging your will, not every thought and feeling gets a vote. Not every one of them has power, unless you give it to that thought or feeling. All right. So stop being a victim to what's going on inside your own head show up for that battle.

And then, you know, are you believing that you're weak? You actually can make a difference, but literally out loud. I've renounced the lie that I'm weak. And I send that lie and all the evils associated with it, all the demons associated with it, to the foot of the cross for Jesus to send to hell when they belong.

And I claim the truth that I can, that I'm strong, that I can do all things to Christly strengthens me, that I'm capable. You know, what, what are you, how are you aligning yourself? I maybe I've renounced a lie that I'm dirty. And I claim the truth that I'm pure. I mean, I literally mean you gotta look in the mirror and say it, man.

You know, preaching is not something you, you, you just go to podcasts for. I mean, the reason that the church has a preaching ministry from, at mass on Sunday to podcast or Catholic radio to whatever the heck you consume, it's, it's all useless. If you don't learn to preach to yourself, that's the purpose of all this.

Is to teach you to start preaching yourself, could form your thinking to the word of God. And then you experience what it means to be a free, liberated, happy son or daughter of God, regardless of what's going on in your life. Amazing Chris, uh, about the book and about the program there, uh, the book itself is a 33 day exercise, right?

Is the program similar? Yeah, it is. It's, uh, I think it's 33 days in the program. Uh, the, the book is more, it's more of a circular thing. It it's. The program leads through different phases. That's, it's more of a linear course that lands on, uh, on making the firm commitment. We just talked about the book lands there too, but it's, it's more meditations on various lies.

People tell themselves in truths from the word of God, just, just to get you in the habit of bathing in those beautiful truths on a daily basis. So I I'd love people. Ideally you go through the program and then you get the book and you just keep reading it again. And. Just, just keep practicing, but you know, there's a lot of people who, however, the heck you feel drawn to do this stuff.

Just dive in. Okay. Sounds great. And how could people buy it and how could people follow you? Uh, it's all on real life, catholic.com, both buying that and following us sounds great. We'll throw that in the show notes for you guys, Chris, thank you so much for your time. Just wanna give you the, the final word and about how this can really make someone's life better.

Thank you brother. Oh, and also you could, you could text the word Chris to the number 4, 4 1 4, 4, and you sent up for a newsletter. I I'm just, I I'm honored by the chance to talk about this. This for me, you could probably tell by talking, none of this comes from, um, you know, I I'm, I have it all together.

Let me tell you how to live. A lot of this comes from spiritual battles have been through myself and the liberation I've experienced, uh, by engaging those battles. And I'm really, uh, Oh, I'm just honored to, to, to share this with you. Thanks for letting me in, because I, and I'm so excited of what waits for you.

on the other side of you entering that battle. Everybody needs this, this isn't just for people who are, who feel particularly acutely broken, which sometimes we all do. Right. But then a lot of times we feel like I got it together. No, no. Everybody has a battle when it comes to identity, everybody. And God is calling us the victory and he's allowing us to be a part in that battle.

Cause he wants to make us strong. He wants us to share his joy of victory. He can just win himself.

Chris is the man. I'm really glad you got to listen to that interview and a reflection question for you to think about. What lies do you believe about yourself? What lies do you believe about yourself? For me, some lies I've believed is I can't build love that lasts. I can't get married. I can't be a good husband.

I'm not enough. There's so many more, but those are just a few that I I've really wrestled with. And what about you? Give it some thought. Write it out. Talk it out with a friend. And if you pray, pray about it, bring it to God. Then I recommend picking up Chris's book. I am wherever you buy books, there's a link to Amazon in the show notes where you could buy his book and his program, or course like he mentioned, can be purchased at real life.

catholic.com real life, catholic.com. Once you're on that webpage, just click coaching, and then you can find the, I am. Renew your mind program, you can sign up for yourself or you can gift it. You can sign up for someone else as well. And then finally, you can buy the book that I wrote for you on Amazon. By clicking the link in the show notes or searching, it's not your fault.

A practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. You can also get the first chapters free restored ministry.com/. Books, just enter your name and your email on there, and we'll send you those first chapters for free. Again, restored ministry.com/books. The resources mentioned are the show notes@restorministry.com slash 54.

Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful, I invite you to subscribe, but most importantly, if you know someone who's really struggling from the impact of their parents, separation or divorce, share this podcast with them. I know it's gonna be helpful. Always. Remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#053: Does a Lack of Peace Prove Your Relationship Isn’t Meant to Be?

Many young people from broken families struggle to discern their relationships and calling in life because they feel so anxious and uncertain. The trauma of their broken family and the effects that stem from it often interfere with their ability to discern properly. 

In this episode, we dive into that and more:

• Why a lack of peace isn’t an automatic indicator that a relationship or vocation isn’t meant to be

• How to discern if you feel anxious and uncertain

• How our desire for 100% certainty prevents us from living the life we were meant to live.

Plus, we offer a sneak preview of our brand new book, It’s Not Your Fault.

Get the FREE chapters from our new book, It’s Not Your Fault.

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

A real struggle for young people that come from broken families is that we have a hard time discerning our relationships and our calling in life because we feel so anxious and uncertain about so many things. And it's not a topic that's really discussed much, unfortunately, but we've seen a clear trend in the people that we work with.

The people that we serve through restored, basically the trauma of our broken family and the effects that stem from. Interfere often with our ability to discern properly. And so we're gonna dive into that. We'll explain what we mean in this episode. And we're gonna talk about things like why a lack of peace doesn't automatically mean that your relationship or your vocation isn't meant to be.

We'll also discuss how to discern, how to make good decisions. If you feel anxious or uncertain, and then we'll touch on how our desire as people who come from broken families for a hundred percent certainty, often prevents us from living. That we were meant to live. We also share some personal stories about how Miranda and I have struggled with this and what we've done about it.

Also, you're gonna get a sneak preview of our brand new book and how you can get the book and a special offer too. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 50. Like I've mentioned, I've written a book for you, and I'm so excited to share it with you.

The sad is that most teenagers and young adults who come from broken families are traumatized by their parents' divorce or separation, but nobody gives them the guidance that they need to navigate the pain and the problems. And without that guidance, they continue to struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles, and so much more.

And I've experienced this firsthand. I know this problem and it shouldn't be this way. My new book is an answer to that problem. The title. It's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. And it features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by people like us from broken families.

And some of the questions we touch on in the book are I struggle with low self-esteem. How can I become more confident? After my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted and adequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me. Self-harm is my way of coping. How do I stop? How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage?

I feel broken. Like something is wrong with me. How could I heal and feel whole again? What can I do to heal my relationship with my parents? What has God let bad things like my parents' divorce happen. And if you read the book and if you implement the. Into your life. You're gonna learn how to cope with your pain in healthy ways.

Instead of unhealthy ways, you're just gonna become a better, stronger and more virtuous person. You'll learn to overcome the emotional problems that you face. You'll be given tactics on how to build healthy relationships. You'll find some evidence based strategies that you can use to actually heal.

These are not complicated. They're simple. You'll learn how to navigate your relationship with your parents. You'll improve your relationship with God. You make better decision. That build a better future for yourself. And most importantly, you're gonna be given the tools and resources. You need to get the help that you need.

And this isn't theory, guys, this is down to earth, common sense advice based on research, expert, advice and stories that we've heard from people like you, people who come from broken families. So this book is really for anyone who comes from a broken home, especially teenagers and young adults, whose parents are divorced, separated, just really struggling in their marriage.

And if that's not you, my bet would be that, you know, someone, you love someone, you lead someone who comes from a broken family. Maybe that's your kids, a cousin, boyfriend, girlfriend, whoever. Perhaps you lead people like that. Maybe you're a pastor youth minister teacher, a coach. In that case, you could use the book to really understand people who come from broken families and offer them a resource that will help them navigate the pain and the problems that they face.

The book comes out on September 21st, 2021. And if you're listening before that date, you can get the first chapters free on our website. I'll tell you how to do that in a second. If you're listening after that date, you can just buy the book on Amazon, or you can still get the first chapters for free to get those free chapters.

It's really easy. Just go to. Restored ministry.com/books. Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. You can click the button on that page to get the free chapters. And then you're just gonna fill out your name, email, and we'll send you those free chapters again, just go to restored ministry.

Dot com slash books. Plus if you ordered the paper back in September, 2021, we're gonna give you the ebook and the audiobook for free. And so hop on that. I'm so excited to share this book with you. We've been working on it for months and the feedback we've gotten from people who've seen an advanced copy has been solid.

So I'm really excited. I know this is going to help you. And so if you wanna get those free chapters, you can do that today@restorministry.com slash books. One side note, this version is specifically written for Catholic teen and young adults. We've just noticed that the majority of our audience comes from that demographic.

And so if you're not Catholic or you're not a teen and young adult, is it still useful for you? The answer is absolutely. Yes. We've heard again and again, how helpful our content is for everyone above that age range as well. And if you aren't religious. You can just skip the parts in the book that don't align with your beliefs.

It's still gonna be helpful for you too. And in this episode, you're gonna hear part of the audio book and then my editor Miranda, and I discuss the content where we add some stories and give some more advice. And I do apologize. You're gonna hear some technical glitches. We really try to produce a high quality show, but sometimes it's unavoidable that we hit some technical glitches.

So I'm very sorry about that. Thanks for your patience. So here's a portion of the audio book from our new book. It's not your fault

question, 31. How can I discern my calling in life when I feel so anxious and uncertain? When it comes to discerning your vocation or a relationship, you may have been told that you'll know it's the right decision. If you feel at peace about it, any uneasiness is a sign that it's not meant to. Along those lines.

One writer offered this question as a sign that a relationship is not meant to be quote. Do you feel anxiety when you think of marrying them end quote, but that advice is only half true. A lack of peace could very well mean that this person or vocation isn't for you, but for most people, especially from broken families, it usually requires more Digg.

In other words, a lack of peace is an important indication that something is happening that is worthy of attention, but it doesn't automatically mean you're pursuing the wrong vocation or dating the wrong person in college. I dated a great girl. However, I felt an incredible amount of fear, anxiety, and an overall lack of peace from the beginning of our relationship.

It was so overwhelming that it almost interpreted it as a sign that it wasn't meant to be. It was so overwhelming that it almost interpreted it as a sign that it wasn't meant to. Thankfully I dug deeper and realized I was dealing with depression and relationship anxiety. For three months of our relationship, I felt extremely numb and anxious.

I could barely think straight an argument could be made that I shouldn't have been dating at all. And we did take a break during that time, but had I run at the first sign of a lack of peace, I would've missed out on a beautiful relationship. The source of my lack of peace was not the vocation of marriage or the woman I date.

It was my fear and anxiety about love, relationships and intimacy. I was terrified of repeating what I saw in my parents' marriage. I was afraid of opening up about my past and my current struggles that fear and anxiety interfered with my ability to discern clearly or blended me. I felt unable to discern properly this pattern repeated in most of my relationships though.

It got less intense. The more I. Another cause for my anxiety was my desire for 100% certainty. And my decision to date, the girl I was with, I wanted a sign from heaven. I had to learn the hard way that God doesn't usually make it super obvious what we should do. It would be nice. Wouldn't it? Afraid of making the wrong decision, afraid of failing in the relationship.

Afraid of repeating my parents' mistakes. I felt so uncertain that I didn't want to decide it was too dangerous. I thought even after I finally made a decision, I second guessed myself because I struggled with self-confidence. The first thing that helped me was to identify that fear and anxiety were at the core of my lack of peace.

Therefore, I didn't need to freak out that the relationship wasn't meant to. Once I knew that I could start working through my fear and anxiety so I could see more clearly. Whenever I felt that anxiety, I learned to be patient with myself instead of immediately doubting my relationship or vocation. So if you have a similar experience of overwhelming fear and anxiety in a relationship, make sure to question the root of your anxiety.

Is it the relationship? Is it this particular vocation? Do you struggle with anxiety? Past wounds, identify the root of the fear and anxiety that you are experiencing for people like us. It's often not the external circumstance that is causing it. For example, the relationship or the person you are dating, but it is rather a reaction to past wounds that are being triggered.

Don't isolate yourself, involve older wiser people who can give you advice and guide you share your experience and discernment with people you trust, especially people whose opinion you value, get their thoughts on whether you and your significant other are a good fit or. That vulnerability will help you much more than keeping everything secret.

That helped me, especially when I couldn't see clearly because of my emotions. So receive the love of others during this time, especially for mentors, this will help you make a better decision and feel confident in that decision. The affirmation and love of a mentor gave me the confidence I needed to pursue my.

Be aware of your tendency to be a people pleaser. It won't serve you well when making big decisions. In fact, it will harm you since you might be more interested in making someone happy than in finding what you're called to do with your life. Naturally, make sure you are praying. It helps to calm your heart, mind, and soul, but more importantly, it helps you connect with God.

His opinion and guidance are more important than anyone else's. He knows you better than you know yourself. So get his input too. Lastly, do your best, not to stress about your vocation, keep your desire to do the right thing and to follow God's will at the center. A pure heart and action will lead you down the right path.

When you begin to feel stress or anxious about your vocation. Try praying this prayer. My Lord God, I have no idea where I'm going. I do not see the road ahead of me. I cannot know for certain where it will end nor do I really know myself. And the fact that I think I am following your will, does not mean that I'm actually doing so, but I believe that my desire to please, you does, in fact, please, you and I hope I have that desire in all that I'm doing.

I hope that I will never do anything apart from that desire. And I know that if I do this, you will lead me by the right road though. I may know nothing about. Therefore will I trust you? Always though. I may seem to be lost. And in the shadow of death, I will not fear for you or ever with me. And you will never leave me to face my perils alone.

For more guidance on discerning your vocation by father Steven W's book, how to discern your vocation. You can also download it for free with the bonus material. Another helpful resource is father Timothy Gallagher's book discerning the will of God, which is based on the spiritual exercises of Saint Ignatius of Loyola

Miranda. Can you relate to anything in the content in the book? Like, was this a struggle for you as well? Yeah, absolutely. I mean that overwhelming sense of anxiety hit me so many times. I mean, yeah, it was pretty much a constant battle for me in my dating life, especially I remember, I don't know who it was if it was some in the, in church or if it was something I read outside or.

Just someone's advice. But I do remember that moment when, you know, someone said there should be peace regarding dating. And I was like, crap. It's like, well, I'm never gonna get married then yeah. It's like, oh shoot. And you know, to be fair, I, I do think that. You know, obviously the first few relationships weren't meant to be mm-hmm

Um, however, that doesn't mean that they weren't supposed to happen. I think we talked about this at some point in the book and, um, in other material, but. You know, anxiety pushes people away, um, or it can push people away. And especially in relationships, it kind of causes us to, or it can cause us to either withdraw from people or to clinging to them.

And so either way you end up kind of creating space. From the other person. So, so, and then it just, it causes this kind of vicious cycle in a way you feel the other person pulling away or you feel yourself pushing them away, which then causes more anxiety mm-hmm etc. Cetera. And so I remember with my husband, like one of the things that I professionally had for the first.

Few months of our relationship, which we didn't date that long, but definitely for fair amount of time, I would always have a stomach ache leading up to us hanging out, or during at least like the first half, you know, the beginning that we were together. Mm-hmm . And so that I realized in therapy, you know, she kind of helped me see that that was actually a trauma response.

And, um, that I was reacting to. Kind of my past experiences with men, my, the, the distrust that I had of them because of a lot of what happened with my parents and, and their separation mm-hmm and the woundedness that was there that existed. And so it was really hard for me to let that go, like to not let that be a, um, yeah, like a sign, I guess, of like, this isn't meant to be, because I feel uneasiness.

Like even physically, I just feel. Like almost ill, you know? Yeah. Cause of the anxiety. So, and you know, he, he is my husband, so obviously like it, it was good for me to be with him. It was good that we were dating. But nevertheless there was anxiety. So if I had, you know, maybe taken to heart, someone's advice of like, yeah, if you're, if you're, if you're experiencing some anxiety, like maybe that's not the right relationship.

And I remember doubting a whole lot, and it was actually a lot of my, my close friends and family that encourage me in the relationship and said, you know, maybe this anxiety's kind of unfounded. And along with my therapist too. Um, she kind of helped me work through that. So I absolutely can identify with, with what you were talking about in here.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I wish people would talk about this more often. I feel like there's a huge misunderstanding when it comes to, you know, figuring out you're calling in life, figuring out who you're supposed to be with, if you're supposed to get married, all that. And I think people would, uh, really benefit from having conversations like these more because the advice about peace, like we mentioned in the book, Is good advice, but it's kind of half true.

Like there should ultimately be a level of peace, but that doesn't mean that there's not gonna be some sort of interference based on our past wounds and all the different things that we mentioned in the book. So I think it, it is really important to keep that in mind. And I relate so much with your experience.

Like I mentioned, uh, in the book, there was a relationship. I mean, pretty much every relationship I've been in has had some level of anxiety where I thought maybe it was meant to be because of. Like I said, it got better as I went on, but this one relationship early on in college, it was just so intense.

It was miserable at times because my emotions were just all over the place. And I was trying again, to make the right decision. I was like, am I meant to be with this girl or not? Um, am I meant to, you know, be married or maybe pursue a different vocation? It just caused so much anxiety and I just felt so lost at the end of the day, especially when it just came to any sort of discernment and you did better than I did in the sense that you knew.

Take this to people, which is awesome. I mean, maybe you didn't right away. You can elaborate on that. But I just held this in Miranda. Like I didn't talk to anyone about it. I didn't tell the girl I was dating. I didn't tell really many other people in my life. I just thought, you know what? Something's like wrong with me for feeling this, like everyone who talks about dating or their relationship, they'll say things like, well, it just felt so natural.

And it was just, we just knew it was meant to be, it was love at first sight. I'm like, I've never experienced that. I, you know, there's something wrong with me. And so I literally did think something, uh, was perhaps wrong with me, but there was peace eventually when I was able to, uh, basically stop forcing myself to feel a certain way or thinking that there was something wrong with me for feeling a certain way, but really just like letting myself feel whatever I was feeling.

And. Didn't fight them. Uh, I just let myself feel what I was feeling. I remember I had, uh, dinner with, uh, the girl I was dating and her family. It was new year's Eve. It was an awesome, awesome dinner. We had a great time. And I remember after that, we were just sitting around a fire and for some reason that whole experience and just the idea that, okay.

I can just feel whatever I'm feeling. I don't need to dictate it or manipulate. Or manufacture it that really, really helped me find peace and ultimately helped that relationship grow. I think one of the huge, um, misfortunes of this anxiety is that it robs you of something that should be enjoyable. That should be fun, that should, that we should learn and grow from mm-hmm

And I think like you, you know, you were saying. Anxiety, like other people are talking about the, the joy and the delight and yeah, just like all the goodness that there is getting to know another person and growing, um, with them. And. Know, just all the dating relationships can show us. And, you know, just enjoying that time, mm-hmm anxiety can kind of, it, it steals that, you know, can steal that from us.

It's not cool, bro. You know, like it's, it's, it's not, uh, not, should not be that way and definitely wish that I had enjoy. The dating relationships. Cause you know, I'm very blessed. Like I can say that the guys that I dated were phenomenal looking back, it's like, man, I, I wish that I had just enjoyed that more and um, not let the anxiety cripple me so much.

And even looking for my relationship with my husband, I wish that I had not questioned the process so much, um, because I think it tainted and otherwise, you know, beautiful, wonderful season. It's good that, you know, after that initial relationship in college kind of, we were able to come around. Grow out of it, almost at least a little to a degree, but I think for people like us, man, it can be a huge struggle.

Totally. Yeah. So much uncertainty, like you said. And I think it is, it is a real struggle for that. People like us are more, you know, likely to fall into and perhaps people listening right now didn't have this experience. Um, but I would say the majority of people that we've. Work with, through restored and friends of mine, people I know who come from broken families.

There's a lot of issues when it comes to dating and relationships. And that's just a theme overall that we've seen. But yeah, so many good points that you made. And I love what, you know, you had people in your life kind of giving you feedback, saying that your doubt was unfounded in certain situations, which is, I think it's so freeing.

I think one of the things that's needed is having people really keep you ground. and say like, well, you're not actually being objective about this. You're actually maybe letting your emotions, um, guide you here and make you think that something is a bigger deal than it actually is. Or maybe even think that something is a problem when it's not even there to begin with.

So I think, I think it's good to. You know, keep that in mind and to have people speaking into it, but I'm curious to get your input on something. I remember just wanting so badly to like tell the girl I was dating, you know, at the beginning of college, it was like end of high school, beginning of college to, to be accurate.

But I, um, remember just like feeling like I couldn't. I felt like she wouldn't really understand where I was coming from, because I didn't really understand what was going on myself. I didn't put my finger on it until later that I was dealing with, you know, anxiety and depression and just like overall numbness.

And so it was difficult to even share that with anyone, cuz I didn't have the words to. Tell them describe what I was going through. So that was a kind of its own cross in a very real way. But, um, I'm just curious. Do you think it's helpful for people in this situation to explain their anxiety and their concerns to the person they're dating?

Or should there be some level of like filtering going on because. When my relationships later on, I learned that there needed to be a balance. Cuz if I was just opening up all the time about all these feelings, I was having, the anxiety that I was experiencing, then I, that would actually make things worse than the relationship.

Kind of like you said, it would cause. That person to doubt too. It would, then that would make me more anxious and perhaps them anxious and just cause all sorts of issues, which are the opposite of peace. So anyway, I'm just curious what you think. If there should be some level of, um, vulnerability there or if there should be some filtering and the last thing I was just say before I let you.

Jump in. I was talking to other people about it. Eventually. Eventually I did have mentors or friends in my life who I couldn't talk to about. So I think you have to talk to someone I'm just not sure if it's appropriate to talk, uh, at least without any filter to the person you're dating. What do you think?

Yeah, I mean, that's a tough one. I, I definitely can say my instinct was always to withhold. Um, but I do think that was to a fault. Um, I was very blessed to have an incredible therapist. I would spill it all unfiltered to her mm-hmm and she would gimme feedback. And one of the things she did encourage me to do a lot was actually open up to him more about it.

And so, you know, it could be that my nature is to hold back, hold back, hold back. So I was probably on one end of the spectrum and she was helping me nudge, nudge me a little bit more towards the kind of happy medium mm-hmm , um, which was definitely very uncomfortable for me. But I will say, I think it was helpful.

I mean, and I, I think it's one of those things too, like you're saying, like, it needs to be moderated, you know, especially like I would say at the beginning of a relationship, you, you probably will have a lot of, you know, you might have a lot of anxiety because of all the things that go dating, um, and the uncertainty and, you know, it's also excitement, which can feel like anxiety, which is really confusing, but, you know, so maybe though at the beginning of the relationship, you do wanna have more.

Of, um, a filter I guess, and, and kind of moderate what you, uh, open up about. However, I think the longer you're together, you know, the more it is kind of a continual unveiling of each other mm-hmm and, um, you know, I think there should be a level of comfort with revealing that, you know, when, and to, to, in, in various degrees.

Um, and I would say, um, like you said, you know, you said you talked to other people and I, and I. If, if you're able to talk to other people first about what you're going through, I think that's the ideal people. You trust people who maybe have been in a similar situation experience, similar challenges. Uh, I think if you are able to communicate with them first and then let them give you feedback about yeah.

You know, it might be good to bring this up with them. Or, you know, maybe you just hold off a little, you know, so to get some feedback before going to your significant other, I think is, is really helpful. And I like, thankfully did have that guidance, which served me well, but I do think it opened door sharing what I did with at least with Steven.

Like it, it, it opened the door for him to love me better. You know, like he, he was able to understand me at a deeper level. Something that was totally, totally unknown to him that he, he just had a very different background, very different experience growing up and it and things. So it did open the door for us to grow closer together, to understand each other better.

And for him to love me in a way that I was even better able. Able to receive. Okay. No, that makes sense. And I, I would totally agree with that. I should have clarified before. I don't think you should completely like withhold this experience. I just think, like you said, there needs to be some moderation.

Ideally you're taking it to other people first. And the main reason I was. Saying that is, I think it's important to let your emotions grow and develop because sometimes there can be a tendency. If you like feel any bit of anxiety kind of going off, the whole idea is that there should be peace. and so the first sense of anxiety or lack of peace, we might have this tendency to be like, oh, I need to talk to them.

I need to tell them about this where I, I think there needs to be a little bit of space there. Like you were saying where it's like, well, let me see where this goes. I don't need to act on it right away. And I remember in another relationship in college, uh, having a similar experience, it was probably about six months into the relationship.

Uh, there had been anxiety, you know, at different points, but there was especially a point where I would. Kind of questioned it and thought like, oh gosh, maybe this isn't meant to be. And my tendency was to, you know, kind of rush and bring that to the other person. But then I realized, you know, maybe I should just sit on this a little bit, you know, think about it, pray about it, talk with people who can guide me and then I'll approach them.

And that's kind of what I was getting at before. I think it is wise to use that sort of a filter. Where you never share anything and you're not vulnerable to the person cuz that's unhealthy. That's not good. Um, but to the point where you're not just saying any, everything in anything that comes on your mind or your heart, anything that you're feeling.

So definitely a balance. And I think what you said, the starting point really is to. Understand your tendencies. If your tendency is more to be maybe overly open with someone, then maybe you need to pull it back a little bit more. But like you said, Marin, if your tendency is to be more closed off, which that was me too, then perhaps we are the people who need to share a little bit more, then maybe we feel ready.

To share. So I think there is that, um, that balance, but I think there is value in letting your emotions like develop and grow and not just thinking that one evening, I felt that one thing. And therefore I need to have a serious conversation with this person. Yeah. I definitely think there should be a level of discerning before, you know, necessarily like not to overthink it to death, but.

Definitely letting things settle a little bit before you bring it to the other person. But I remember something that was super helpful that I did share with him pretty early on was my tendency to spiral, like to, for him to say or do something that. Would send my alarm BES going off and I would withdraw and I would just shut down, down.

And when I was able to like tell him that that was something that I experienced, he was able to then identify times when. That was happening and it just, or at least just asked me, are you spiraling right now? You know? And then it helped so much to bring me out of it, to, to, for him to like, have access to that.

So, I mean, and I don't know how early that was and, you know, might, might have been, might have been later in the relationship that I'm remembering, but when you let in, you know, the other person a little bit, little by little. Where you struggle in relationships, like it allows other person to help carry that with you and to, yeah.

Love you in a way. Is healing. Yeah. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. And I really wish looking back to that relationship. I mentioned in the book late high school, early college, I really wish I would've been more vulnerable with her. I think it would've helped a ton. And that was one of the things that ultimately did help the relationship to become better healthier was when I started opening up a little bit more.

So, yeah. I, I agree. It it's definitely nuance. It's something that's not. Easy to just say, oh, just do this or just do that. But there are absolutely different things to consider. And I think in one way, it's like this whole discernment for people like us is more about navigating emotions than choosing like a way of life, which kind of sinks it really.

Yeah. Doesn't seem like it should be this way. Absolutely. I wanted to go back to something that you said too there that the early relationships you had though, they weren't meant to be, it doesn't mean that they weren't supposed to happen. I think that's an awesome way of saying, and I would totally agree in my relationships as well.

Like the ones that didn't work out, um, they obviously weren't meant to be, but I was glad that they happened. So, you know, I think it goes for both of us when we're recording this. We're not saying that, oh gosh, you know, we really missed the train on that one. Like, because we were anxious, we missed our vocation.

Saying that some people I think get that idea. Um, most of the time that's very false, but, um, but I think it is important to say, and I would just relate to, to what you said before and totally agree with. Yeah, it can be, it can be really tough, but the more, yeah, the more experience you get with it, like an awareness, I think is just really, really huge.

Yeah, absolutely. Like the awareness that you had that, you know, at the root of this, like your counselor said that not in your stomach, that stomach ache was really a trauma response that was pointing back to your distrust of men, which had to do with the breakdown of your family, your parents' marriage and your family.

So that awareness, I think, goes so far in helping. Talk yourself off the ledge, thinking that, oh gosh, everything is going to hell. Like, this is not good. Like this relationship is over just kind of catastrophizing. I think that's the word? Um, this whole, yeah, this, this whole drama that's unfolding inside of you.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. And I think, you know, with, with people like us, we have a lot of fear. Um, obviously this we're talking, you know, anxiety. And so the idea of dating someone and then breaking up sounds just like the end of the world. It's too hard. I can't do this. At least that was my experience. Like.

Remember the idea of the relationship ending was just mm-hmm it just felt like, oh my gosh, like I can't, I can't do this. I can't handle this. Mm-hmm um, I wanted it to be a sure thing and that's just not how life works. So it was really. That navigating that fear can be super, super tough, um, because it just feels so risky.

And especially if the other person doesn't have that experience, you kind of feel isolated a little bit in your, in your anxiety, in your fear about the relationship. But I remember, you know, my therapist kind of encouraging me and saying, you know, and if you break up this isn't it that then it, that then it there's more to the story like that, that person wasn't for you.

Like it was, there's more to, to your journey than just the break, like the breakup won't end everything, you know, there's more that comes after it. Yeah. But it can be, it can be really. Overwhelming, um, and alarming when you're entering in your relationship to accept that reality of reality of yeah. Like this might not work out and that will be painful, right?

No, it, it is such a difficult thing. Just kind of anticipating that pain. Cuz I know for me, I was so loyal in my relationships in the sense that I almost treated it like a marriage. It was like, I can. Walk away from this person, because like you said, in a way it almost felt like a divorce because I, you know, just was thinking, oh gosh, I'm repeating, you know, what happened in my parents' relationship?

And I didn't want that. And so there, you know, there might even been times in some of my relationships where. I maybe should have stepped back sooner or broke things off. And I didn't, because of that fair sense of loyalty, like, no, I will not repeat what happened, you know, in my parents' marriage, I'm not gonna give up on this person.

Like, you know, mom and dad did on each other. So I think that can cause discernment issues. Too, cuz we maybe hold on to something longer than we should, which is, which is really difficult. So I, I definitely relate to you just like dreading a breakup, but I think what your, you know, counselor said is just so helpful and even playing out that ending in your head, I found can be helpful just thinking through, okay, this could.

Then what then what? And thinking of the, then what, for me that has helped me kind of overcome a lot of the fear, cuz then I realized, well, you know, it will be painful. It is scary, but I'll survive and I'll be okay. And is it this, isn't the end of the world that you said? Yeah. And I think after dating a couple guys and it not working out when I was dating my husband.

I had a sense a little, it was still scary. It was still really hard. But I do remember having that sense of like, I've been through some really tough breakups and it sucked, but like I got through it and I, I think I'm stronger because of it. So, and grew grew from that experience. So it kind of gave me a level, a sense of, I guess, security in a sense that I had endured that.

And, you know, and I was here and I was okay. You made it no same, same here. And kind of on, on a little bit of a different note, I just wanted to say to anyone who maybe is comparing their experience of a relationship to someone who comes from a very intact and secure home, don't do that. Uh, I did that and I just think it's really unhelpful.

Again, you ultimately, there should be peace in your relationship, but you might have to fight through a lot of crap to get there. You know, just like Marin and I are saying you might be dealing with some serious anxiety issues or depression, or just struggles with uncertainty and all that. So if you're looking at yourself and saying, well, I am struggling with this and this friend of mine.

It's just like on cloud nine in, in her relationship and his relationship. And I just don't see something must be wrong with me. Maybe something is, and that that's basically what we're saying here. It's like, don't compare like apples or oranges. Don't make it harder on yourself than it already is by saying like, well, I'm not having that same experience as someone else.

And I think, and some level, I just wanna say that I think everyone has some anxiety in relationships that there's like Miranda was saying. There's a lot of uncertainty just by the very nature of a dating relationship. But I think it is important to give yourself some extra grace and not expect your experience to match the experience of someone who comes from a very secure, intact home.

Absolutely. Yeah. I think that was kind of a challenge in my dating relationships that the guys I dated, you know, were very blessed. In that they came from really beautiful families that, um, were intact and secure. And so they, it really was a challenge for them to understand, to step into my experience of, of brokenness and, you know, the woundedness anxiety.

Yeah, definitely. It's tough. And I think even in marriage, you know, if you marry someone who comes from a very different background, you know, your worldview is just totally different. And I think it's, you know, can be mutually, you know, it can be healing for you to be with someone, you know, from a secure home, but it can also be challenging.

Totally. I had the exact same experience. I think every girl that I dated came from St as you like, came from a intact family. And so it was difficult for them to totally understand where I was coming from. And, uh, I, yeah, I remember, I think having similar conversations as we're having now and it not going so well, cuz them thinking well, You feel anxious about this?

Well then maybe it's not meant to be where in reality, you know, there was a lot more underneath the surface, so yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Even in marriage, it can be, it can be really difficult to, uh, to kind of wrestle with all this and explain where you're coming from without it seeming like it's a, it's a major issue.

It's just something that people like us have to roll with, which is unfortunate, but it is the way that it is. I, uh, another thing that helped me. Was grounding techniques, especially when I felt so anxious. So for some of you who are familiar with psychology, you know, grounding techniques where it's basically using your senses to kind of pull you out of your head where, you know, anxiety, a lot of times ends in like racing thoughts, right.

You just get stuck in your head so much. And so you really need to use your body in ways that. Get you out of your head. And so for me, sometimes it was as simple, especially if I was in the midst of like a situation where I felt it with the, the girl or girls I dated, uh, I would even just touch a table or something.

And, you know, if you can imagine I'm doing this right now with my desk, you can imagine just like running your hand up and down the table or grabbing it or whatever, just getting. Out of your head by using your senses. So that's another tip for you guys listening. If this is something you're dealing with, give that a try and you can do that with all your senses, whether it's your sight or smell, whatever you can use, those grounding techniques.

Again, just like it sounds, it kind of brings you down to reality because in, in our heads we can kind of go crazy. We can think up all these different scenarios, think of all these different problems, which may or. Be there. And so it's important that we stay objective and that's where getting other people involved is helpful too.

But these grounding techniques I found to be, to be really useful. Have you Miranda, have you used stuff like that? I think that's still a struggle for me. I think I've learned a little bit about. You know, kind of the practice of mindfulness and one of the tactics that they encourage is using your physical senses to ground yourself.

I think I still wrestle with that. Some, I think that when, um, I'm like something triggers me, um, triggers my fear. It's very, it's so intense. You know, the physiological response is so intense and then also your brain is just like, it just. Takes over and you, you know, there might be like, I might go, you know, eight minutes without saying anything, but my mind is going in a million different directions and taking me down a lot of rabbit holes that are not, not good and not healthy.

So I think that's still more of a struggle. I think what has helped me more has been just vocalizing. It of saying, yeah. Like I, I I'm spiraling right now, you know? And, um, just the act of putting it in words kind of stops me in my tracks a little bit and helps me bring me out of that. But. Um, I think if you are able to use the grounding techniques, like I think that that's a huge tool that can be super powerful.

It's just a matter of, I guess, practice. Yeah. No, that's great advice. So if it works for you guys, maybe give it a try, see if it works for you. And if it does use 'em, if not, there just might be something else out there that can help you. And hopefully some of our content has, you know, directed you to, to those different things.

Marida one other thing. Topic is just the desire that we have for a hundred percent certainty. I've noticed this trend in people from broken families that we just desire that certainty more than other people. And certainly some of this is like a temperament thing, personality thing. Some people just want more certainty.

Some people are okay without as much certainty in life. But I think, uh, especially when it comes to relationships for people who come from broken homes, Really struggle with this. And what I've seen is a lot of people like us, they end up just being really stuck in life and not moving ahead in relationships because they're looking for that.

Like, Perfect fairytale ending just they want the right person. They wanna know that it's right. And they want to have no problems or feel no anxiety. And man, that sounds great, but I've never talked to anyone who who's had that. So I think it's important that we kind of acknowledge that this. Struggle for people like us.

And I'm interested to hear your thoughts, especially like, why is that? Why do you think we struggle with this so much? I think, you know, we've experienced the fallout of what happened when things don't work out and how painful it can be with, with marriage. And so we're traumatized, you know, we, we wanna avoid that pain at all.

And so it becomes a very, very fear is a very powerful motivator. And I think when it comes to dating or making big decisions, like we, we don't wanna be burned again, ESP, you know, because we've experienced it in such a deep way. Yeah. We, we want to. Avoid that at all costs. So true. And the one thing I would add as well is I think I've noticed this tri people who come from broken families is that we de desire that a hundred percent certainty, because we feel like we have no safety net.

We have no backup. We feel like there's no one there for us. So many of us just feel so alone when our parents' marriage breaks apart, our family breaks down. We feel like we have to just figure life out by ourselves. No, one's got our back. Even if maybe they do have our back. If something. Bad were to happen.

We feel like they won't. And so we end up just going through life, just kinda looking out for ourselves. And so I think that's why these decisions, especially big decisions, like a relationship or vocation can feel so scary. And we want so much certainty, which can leave us feeling stuck because we just feel like we have no plan B.

We have no safety. Yeah, we feel like, um, no, one's got our back that we have to, um, we can't mess up. We can't afford to make a mistake, so we're just, we're extra cautious. We're extra risk adverse. And I think there are statistics that children are divorced. Like just don't take as many risks as, um, you know, both in relationships, but also in life in general, we just tend to be more cautious.

We tend to watch our step a lot more and I definitely find this to be the case with myself. Like even. Small decisions. And I think we, we have kind of a couple sections on, on decision making in the book. Things that shouldn't be a big deal. I ruminate over a lot more than, than is appropriate because I wanna make sure this is right.

And so I definitely think that that's something to be aware of. Absolutely. It's a real struggle and it will hold you back in life. And. Not only that it will just leave you with a ton of regret I've realized. So I think it's really good to surround yourself with people who will push you to take risks, like good risks.

Um, but also to just remember that if you do fail, what happens, that's kind of the way's I think, to overcome so much of that fear is just mentally to go through that exercise of like playing it out, like, okay, if I do. what happens? How bad is it gonna get? And in some cases it might be really bad, then you can think, okay, if that happens, what am I gonna do to recover from it?

And then also a third question. This comes from Tim Ferris. He had this little exercise to kind of navigate your fears. You should also ask the question of, well, what can I do to reduce the chance that it will fail? So again, the questions are okay if this fails, like how bad is it gonna get, what can I do to mitigate those risks?

And then if, if a worst case scenario does happen, what do I do to recover? And so if you think through those and give that some time. What I've found is it kind of takes the wind out of the fear and it makes it much more manageable to go through and take that risk because in the end you can see, well, it's not as scary as I thought.

Absolutely. Just putting it out in the open and either, you know, like you said, reasoning through it on your own, or, you know, maybe taking it to someone else again, it makes it so much less scary and you realize, okay, The end result of this, even if I fail, is most likely not catastrophic is most likely not UN fixable.

Um, there's very little that can't be repaired in some way. And even if it is something that, you know, maybe you can't undo, it is something that you can, you know, have a contingency plan for. So I think it's really important to kind of examine that fear and like dig a little deeper. And instead of.

letting it dictate, you know, because it's so loud and it feels so strong, you know, kind of ignoring that a little bit, pushing it to a side a little bit, which can be super tough, but then. Putting it aside enough that you can examine it a little bit closer because a lot of times, you know, the fear is just fear and it's not really just in, in reality.

That's so true. Miranda. Thank you so much for your time. It's been a great conversation, uh, to everyone listening. We really hope this has been helpful for you. And, uh, in Thero I'll give you some more info on how to pick up the book if you'd like to Miranda. Thanks again. Yeah, of course.

I really hope that was helpful for you. One question for you to think about after this episode is over, is how has your anxiety or your uncertainty held you back from good things in your life? How has it kept you from discerning or making decisions about your life's calling or maybe relationships that you've been in?

And most importantly, what are you gonna do about it? What's your plan to overcome it? Give that some thought. Again, you can get the first chapters for free from my new book. It's not your fault. A practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. Just go to restored ministry.com/books.

Enter your name and your email. We'll send you the first chapters for free. Again, restored ministry.com/books. Or just click on the link in the show notes. The resources mentioned are the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 53. Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful. Feel free to subscribe, but most importantly, if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce as, or broken marriage, share this podcast with them, it's definitely gonna help them as well.

Always. Remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#052: How to Navigate Your Relationship With Your Divorced Parents

A popular question we receive from young people from broken families is “How do I help my parents and navigate my relationship with them?” 

In this episode, we offer advice and answer that question. We discuss:

• What to do when your parents try to enlist you in their war against each other

• How to respond if your parents are asking you to make or heavily influence big decisions for them

• Why you shouldn’t have to pretend everything is okay when Mom or Dad start dating someone else

Plus, we offer a sneak preview of our brand new book, It’s Not Your Fault. 

Get the FREE chapters from our new book, It’s Not Your Fault.

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When I give talks to college students, one popular question that comes up during the Q and a is how do I help my parents? And how do I navigate my relationship with them? It's an excellent question, which is why this is a topic of today's episode. We answer two questions. How do I love and help my parents?

How do I deal with my parents moving on in life and in relationships? So in this episode, there's a few things we discuss what to. When your parents try to enlist you in their war against each other, we touch on how to respond. If your parents are asking you to make or heavily influence big decisions for them, we talk about why you shouldn't have to pretend that everything is okay when mom or dad start dating someone else.

We also hit on how you can change your parents. You might be surprised by the answer to that. We also offer a sneak preview of our brand new book and how you can get the book and a special offer for you guys too. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 52, and like I said, I've written a book for you. The sad truth is that most young people, most teenagers and young adults who come from broken families are traumatized by their parents' separation.

Or divorce, but nobody gives us people like us, the guidance that we need to navigate the pain and the problems. I know this firsthand, I live through it myself. And without that guidance, we continue to struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles, the list goes on and on again, I've experienced this firsthand and it really shouldn't be this way.

My new book is an answer. To that problem. The title is it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents to force the book features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by young people like us who come from broken families. Some of the questions that I answer in the book are I struggle with low self-esteem.

How can I become more confident after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted and adequate, and even rejected as something wrong with me. Self-harm is my way of coping. How do I stop? How can I cope in healthy ways instead of unhealthy ways? What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life events?

How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage? I feel broken. Like something is wrong with me. How can I heal and feel whole again? What can I do to heal my relationship with my parents? Why does God let bad things like my parents force happen? And how can I discern my calling in life when it feels so anxious and uncertain and lots of other questions.

And if you read the book and more importantly, if you implement the advice in the book, you're gonna learn a bunch of things. You're gonna learn how to cope with your pain in healthy ways. Instead of unhealthy ways, you'll become a better, stronger, more virtuous person. You'll learn to overcome emotional problems.

You'll be given tactics to build healthy, thriving relationships. You're gonna find evidence based strategies that you can use to heal. You'll also learn how to navigate your relationship with your parents. That we'll talk about today. You're gonna improve your relationship with God and you'll make better decisions that build a better future for yourself.

And most importantly, you'll be given the tools and resources. You need to get the help that you need. And guys, this isn't theory, this is down to earth. Common sense advice based on research. Expert advice and stories that we've heard from people like you, people who come from broken families since book really is for anyone who comes from a broken family, but especially teenagers and young adults whose parents are divorced, separate are really struggling in their marriage.

And if that's not, you, you probably love or lead someone who comes from a broken family. Maybe that's your kids or a cousin or a boyfriend, or girlfriend, someone, whoever, or maybe you lead them as a pastor, youth minister, a teacher, a coach, wherever you're at in your relationship with young people who come from broken families, this is gonna be a great resource for you.

And for them, it makes a great gift that you can give to them to help them navigate all the pain and the problems that come from the breakdown of their parents' marriage. The book comes out on September 21st, 2021. And if you're listening to this before that date, you can get the first chapters for free.

I'll tell you how to do that in a second. And if you're listening after that date, you can buy the book on Amazon right now, or you can get the first chapters for free by going to restored ministry.com. Again, restored ministry.com/. Books and ministry is just singular restored ministry.com/books. This link is in the show notes as well.

Just click on the button to get the free chapters. You're gonna fill out a quick form with your name, your email, and then we'll send you the free chapters. Again. That's restored ministry.com/books. And if you buy the paperback in September of 2021, you're gonna get the ebook and the audio book for free.

We're given another way for free to anyone who buys the book in September, 2021. And we'll tell you in future episodes, how you can get the free ebook and the audio book. And I'm so excited to share this with you guys. We've been working on this for months, my team and I, and the feedback we've gotten from people who've seen an advanced copy has been really solid.

So we're really excited to share this with you. I also wanna say that this version is for Catholic teens and young adults. Now, if you're not Catholic or you're not a teen or young adult, is it still useful for you? Absolutely. We've heard again and again, how the content that we put out though, it's technically geared towards people who come from broken homes who are teenagers and young adults.

It, it really helps a whole range of people, especially people who come from broken homes who are outside that age range. And so if that's you, or maybe you aren't religious, you can just skip the parts that are religious, skip the parts that don't align with your beliefs. And it's still gonna be really useful for you as well.

And in this episode, you're gonna actually hear two questions and answers from the book itself. You're gonna hear part of the audio book and then my editor Miranda, and I discuss the content. We had some stories and some more advice. So I don't wanna wait any longer. Let's jump into the first

question. 26. How do I love and help my parents? One day, the mom of a 14 year old boy suddenly abandoned her family, never to return her departure, left his dad. So depressed and debilitated that he struggled to function wanting to help the boy dropped out of school and immediately took ownership of the cooking, cleaning, and shopping to compensate for his mother's absence.

While most of us wouldn't drop out of school. At 14, we share the same desire to help our parents seeing the problems in their lives and the suffering that they experience. We naturally wanna help them. However, we might not know how to do it in a healthy way first, remember that people can change, but you can't change them.

They have to change themselves. You can influence them, but they must choose to change. If your mom or dad are choosing an unhealthy way of living, realize that you are not responsible for their actions. They are, you cannot change them. They must change themselves. By far, the best thing you can do is to live a virtuous life, a life of good habits and an internal disposition to do what is good, live a healthy life in every way possible.

Your example is much more likely to inspire change in your parents than the words you say, set and enforce healthy boundaries with your parents. This not only helps you, but it helps them too. They need to know what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. Boundaries are the lines you draw that tell people what you will and will not allow.

When someone breaks the boundary, it must be enforced. It's useless to have boundaries. If there are no consequences for breaking them, boundaries are most needed. When it comes to emotionally supporting your parents do not become your mom or dad's primary emotional support. It's unhealthy for you and them, even though it feels like you're helping.

Instead redirect your parents to people who can properly support them, their family, friends, a mentor, pastor, counselor, and so on. As much as you want to help, it's not your role to be your parents confidant about their struggles, especially with their spouse. You are their child. You should remain their child, not assume the role of their spouse.

If things get too difficult, dramatic or toxic, you might need to take a break from that parent who is causing the issues. At one point, I did not approve of my dad's behavior. I didn't like the way he was treating my mom, my siblings and me. I told him I wouldn't speak to him until I saw changes in his life for more than a year.

We didn't speak. At one point, I explained in a letter that I wanted a relationship with him, but I wouldn't engage with him until I saw him improve the way he treated every. Eventually he didn't prove. And we resumed our relationship. Sometimes love must be tough like that. Don't be afraid to take a break, write a letter if it's helpful, explain your intentions, but don't expect them to respond well.

If they try to bully you or pressure you to go back on your boundary, don't do it. Find a friend or mentor to talk to about whatever you're going through in situations where you've become your mom or dad's confidant the person with whom they share intimate struggles and rely on for their stability and support.

Tell your parents, mom, dad, I know you're hurting right now. It breaks my heart. I wanna help you, but I have to help you in another way. I can't be the person you bring your problems to. Who can you talk to about all this stuff? Suggest someone they can confide in. If it gets bad enough, contact that person and let them know you need their help since your parent are relying on you too much.

Unfortunately, it's so common for mom and dad to badmouth each other to say mean things and even divulge secrets or rumors about their spouse. Usually it's just done out of frustration. Sometimes it's done in order to turn you against the other parent. If there are details, you need to know a healthy immature parent can sit you down and calmly tell you what happened, but it's not necessary to continually bring up those things.

They might feel like they're at war with their spouse, but that person is so your mom or dad tell them that you can say, dad, it really hurts when you say those things about mom. I know you guys don't like each other, but please remember that. She's still my mom. Would you please not talk about her? When my siblings and I are around, if he doesn't respond well, insist that you will not put up with it, leave the room when he brings up the topic or redirect the conversation.

If things get unsafe or traumatic, make sure to call your other parent or an adult you trust and get away. Another common experience for people like us is being the middleman. The person who relays information between mom and dad, this can be extremely stressful and anxiety provoking. The tricky thing is you might feel that if you were to step away from this role, your siblings will be forced into it.

It doesn't have to be that way. Those aren't the only options. Talk to your mom or dad, or write them a letter convey that you are no longer willing to be a middleman. If they wanna tell each other something, they have to go through their lawyer, counselor, friend, or family member, tell them not to use your siblings in your place as you will not tolerate that either you can start by asking nicely, but be firm.

If they don't comply, there's nothing wrong with being the middleman for simple logistical things like Courtney, when mom or dad will pick you up for the weekend, but don't feel the temptation to be their negotiator. It's not your job. They are adults and they need to act like it. Most importantly, talk to your siblings, make an agreement with them that none of you will be the middleman.

You can even tell your parents that you and your siblings are in agreement and will not allow that to happen. Along with playing the middleman is feeling forced to choose sides. This is called triangulation. Sometimes mom or dad will present you with evidence that the other is bad, whether it's true or not.

And that situation, you can say a few things. You can acknowledge the issue. They're conveying by saying, yes, that's definitely wrong. But if they press you further to pick sides, remind them, dad, what you said she did is disturbing and wrong. But please remember, you're talking about my mom. How would you react if someone told you that about your mom, avoid the pressure to pick sides, do your best to be diplomatic.

In some cases, though, it can happen. That one spouse is totally in the wrong and to blame for almost everything that happened in the breakdown of the marriage and family. In that case, it's okay to be vocal about what you believe is right, but in time, do your best to let your parents figure that stuff out.

You should be their child, nothing. While there are plenty of examples of unhealthy ways to help your parents. There are healthy ways too. Usually it's not complicated. Do your chores around the house. If you're living at home, if you're a handier techy person, help them with some home projects or technology, if they need input on minor decisions, feel free to offer it.

But major decisions shouldn't be placed on you. That's UN unfair to ask. So stick to the simple stuff, never be afraid to say, I'm sorry. I don't know what to say. And I'd prefer not to talk about it. Could you talk to your family or friends about it? If it's possible and healthy, spend time with each parent, build a relationship with them, do things together.

Have good conversations, ask good questions. Keep things light, especially if they're usually heavy and dramatic, as much as you're able, keep the focus on your relationship with that parent. Not the other parent, allow yourself to be a kid it's so common to grow up faster than you should as a child of divorce or separation.

Savor the moments when you can just. Be a kid. That's what it's supposed to be like. I'm so sorry if your childhood has been hijacked because of your parents' decisions. I know what it's like, be honest with how you're feeling. If the parent can't handle your honesty, then make sure you can confide in someone else.

Ideally, a mentor instead of bottling your feeling is inside. Get them off your chest, whether in person or over the phone, communicate with your parents. If the conversation goes south, redirect it with a question or statement such as. Can we talk about something else or I don't wanna talk about this right now.

Avoid arguing over text messages. Email is better. Letters are especially helpful. Just make sure that after you write what you feel needs to be said, you let it sit for a day or two to make sure you aren't saying something that you'll. The goal for your relationship with your parents is that it is a parent child relationship.

When you are an adult, it can become an adult to adult relationship, though. They will always be your parents resist the temptation to be their savior that's God's role. Do your best to love and honor your parents in healthy ways without allowing them or anyone to use or abuse you. In the end, your boundaries and love for your parents will make the relationships healthy, or at least help you avoid a toxic relationship.

Miranda. This is an important question. Important content. I remember I was giving a talk at a university and during the Q and a, after the talk, uh, this probably came up the most people wanted to know, like, how do I help my parents? How do I love them? Especially when they're struggling and suffering, because divorce is hard on our parents too.

And so I think generally we wanna know like, how do we help our parents? So this is, I'm glad we're talking about this. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a huge topic. Think a lot of, especially, you know, when you're in that age of like, you're old enough to understand what's going on, you're old enough to see like how your parents are being affected by it, but you're not, you're not in a position that you can.

Fix things or even really get out of the situation, you know, you're still home or you, uh, you go home a lot. Like if you're in college, you know, you might go home a lot during the holidays, things like that. So you're not in a position where you can really fully disengage. So totally, it's really a tough spot to be, to be honest, like to, to witness someone that you love so much going through such a hard time, but also feeling helpless to.

Yeah to do anything about it. And then you're, you're you yourself are most likely hurting as well, just from the situation that you're going through. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's such a good reminder that you can't fix your parents. You can't fix this situation. I think so often we have that desire.

A lot of us have kind of a, a savior complex where we just wanna rush in and rescue, like everyone's struggling. And I think it's good to remember that we can't do that. Like, like the content in the, um, book says we can, you know, influence them. We can maybe help them in some ways, but we can't rush in and like take the reins, take the driver's seat of their life and do everything for them.

So I love what that you said that I think it's an important reminder. And I think, uh, this question, the popularity of this question kind of surprised me, partly because I think there's this misconception. That, when you come from a broken home, you like hate your parents. And certainly there's some people who, who hate their parents.

No doubt about that. But I think most of us, we really love our parents. We might be hurt by them and we almost always are hurt by them when the family breaks down, but we really love them and we wanna protect them. And even to a fault, like we even protect them to the point of where it maybe hurts us a lot and perhaps even hurts them.

And so I think, uh, I think that's a huge misconception that we maybe hate our parents or don't wanna love them or help them or do what's best for them. Um, but I think deep down, even if it on the surface, we might a pair, like we're struggling with them. I think deep down, we really do love them. We wanna help them.

Oh, definitely. Yeah. Another thing that I loved from the content is our parents, you know, frequently, especially during a divorce, hopefully like after the fact and the things might calm down, but during, and perhaps before, uh, they're really at war with each other. I remember this with my parents. They were like going at each other's necks, like it was rough.

Mm. And so it makes sense that they're just in this aggressive mindset, like they're just, emotions are controlling them, so to speak. And then we're kind of thrust in the middle of this war and they're like, wait, wait, I want you to pick a side. Like you gotta fight this war with me. And that puts us in a really awkward spot.

And so I, I love the reminder in the content that, you know, this is still your mom or your dad. And, and I like that question that we put in there. Like, how would you feel if someone talked about your mom or your dad this way, asking that to our parents? Because I think that kind of puts them in our shoes and makes them realize.

Yeah, I probably shouldn't be saying these things or forcing them to, to pick sides cuz I would feel weird and uncomfortable if someone did the same thing to, to me concerning my parents. And I actually asked my dad that recently, I, you know, I don't know if it stopped him in his tracks, but I think it was something good for him to think about.

Yeah, for sure. I think it's like you said, totally natural. You know, when someone is going through something as emotionally, you know, intense as a separation or divorce that they naturally they're so hurt and experiencing so much pain that to show it it's is it's just natural. It's it's almost inevitable.

Like I, I would say it takes super high degree of self control and virtue to try to. Kind of keep that to yourself or to look for the appropriate outlet. And so inevitably I think what happens a lot of the time, like is that the kids, like we, we get the brunt of it, cuz we spend a lot of time with our parents.

We're we're at home totally quite a bit. And so we end up getting the brunt of this anger of this deep, deep, deep hurt that our parent is experiencing. And even though, like you said, like it is so normal and so understandable. It's also very inappropriate. Because you are not the person that should be hearing those things.

Like mm-hmm, you as, as the child, you know, you as their, their son, like, but that is not information or things that you should be made privy to. Um, and so I'm glad, you know, a lot, some of, one of the elements we focus on in this section is the importance of boundaries. Mm-hmm, establishing those boundaries because again, as, as much as that reaction of like, can you believe this, et cetera, cetera is so it's so normal.

And to a degree, like, I I'd, I'd argue that it's very healthy to express, you know, the frustration that you're when you're going through something like that. But you have to think about it in the right context and with a parent talking about another parent with their child, like that is where the boundary is crossed.

That's where it becomes just inappropriate. And so absolutely. It's really important, like you said, and like you, you know, you had this experience with your dad to set that boundary, which can be really intimidating and scary but so important. Yeah. Cuz you don't know how they're gonna react or I've had these conversations with my mom and my dad in person texting, you know, like we said, texting's not the best, but sometimes it's like, if they're just doing out frustration, which again, like you said might be totally understandable.

It's just, we're not the people they should be bringing it to. But I love what you said that it's usually just a matter of convenience. Like it's not like our parents are typically malicious and trying to damage us. They just we're home. They're frustrated. They need someone to talk to we're there. So it does you're right.

It takes a lot of self control to bring it to the appropriate support, the appropriate outlet, like you said, We touched on this in the content, but it's so damaging to continue that for years and years and years where your mom and your dad are both, maybe are just confiding in you again and again about their, just their struggles.

And, you know, it doesn't mean that we can't love and support them. Like we said, in the book content, but it really means like you just said, we need healthy boundaries and we didn't go into it as much, but it is so damaging for so many reasons. It creates this weird dynamic between your mom and your dad too.

When let's say dad is confiding in you a ton, then it might make mom feel like, well, she is more of a spouse to him than I am or, or whatever. And that could be, you know, of course, before the divorce and it can create all these sorts of unhealthy dynamics where the other parent becomes jealous and. Way, messy stuff.

So we didn't go into all of that, but it is just extremely damaging. And there's been research and psychologists, who've written books about this and talked about, um, this idea of like covert sexual abuse, which doesn't mean like physical abuse, but it means this emotional, unhealthy, emotional dynamic in a parent child relationship where they're basically making you into, into a spouse and the term some people throw around is ation.

And so that's kinda what we're getting at here. We wanna be able to love and help our parents without getting to that level, uh, which again is not only damaging for us, but it's actually really unhealthy and harmful for them too. Absolutely. And I think, you know, what the most tragic part is that it, it, it wounds like our relationship with our parents.

And I would say a lot of times it does drive us the kids away from our parents. I, I know, I, I think my parents were pretty good about this actually. Like I, it was. Very rare for me to hear any, like either parents speak ill of the other. That's awesome. Um, which, yeah, I definitely, in retrospect, it's, it's pretty remarkable, but I did have, um, some friends who, uh, yeah, their parents were going through a really terrible divorce and I, you know, hung out.

I spent a lot of time at their house and I could tell that, you know, the mom was relying on her sons, like as a emotional support and wanting to talk about the divorce all the time. Mm-hmm and wanting to know, you know, like information about the dad and none of it was malicious. None of it was, um, yeah.

Wanting to, to hurt her sons at all. But it was, she was just in so much pain and she. Because they were there and because they were, you know, with her husband spending time with him too, she, it was almost like, yeah, this weird usery, um, like you said, of, of specification. And it was really, and what, what happened is of course, you know, the, the boys, like, they didn't want to talk to their mom anymore because wow.

Anytime that, um, they did, it would just, you know, start with a question. And then just another question that, you know, isn't too bad, but then eventually would become a full on and conversation and discussion and then a fight because they don't wanna talk about it. And it was just created so much tension between them.

Um, and it's not that there wasn't love, like it wasn't that the mom didn't love their, her kids or that the kids didn't love their mom, but it just. It's so it was so detrimental to their relationship because it wasn't the appropriate outlet. And so that is like something that I think is really hard to see in the moment, especially for the parents is mm-hmm, how it's hurting.

Um, not only the kids, but just your relationship with your kids, which is of course, most of the time, the last thing they want. Yeah, absolutely. That's a great reminder, especially than any parents listening right now, it's again, in a way by resisting this unhealthy dynamic, we're trying to save the relationship with you.

Um, even if there are some struggles there and it might not seem great in the long run, it will be much better if this doesn't occur, like Miranda was saying so, so good. And I certainly know that experience. And I've talked with, you know, people through resort or just friends who have explained basically the same thing that you just said about it.

Just being constant, right? Cause when in the midst of a divorce, especially a really messy one. It's so at the forefront of our parents' minds. And so they wanna talk about it all the time and it's just overwhelming. Um, and the, in information digging, I don't know if that's a thing, but yeah, that's like totally, totally real because, uh, I experienced that with my parents.

I know friends of mine and people we work with through ReSTOR have experienced that too, where, you know, mom or dad are out of each other's life, but they're so interested. They wanna know like what's going on in their other person's life. And so they'll either directly ask or maybe kind of indirectly passive, aggressively mention some things, kind of looking for a response.

And again, I don't think, you know, most of it's not malicious, but there is just that desire for them to know like, oh, is she dating again? Or is she with another person? Or, you know, what are they doing with their money or, you know, all sorts of topics that they could bring up. And it just puts you in such a tough spot as a child, cuz it's like, well, I just wanna love you.

And I just wanna love my other parent. You know, why do I have to be this middle man? Who's like a spy passing information back. It, it just shouldn't be that way. Not only that, but you're also processing everything that's going on yourself. So it's like, it's hard. It's hard enough to cope with our own, our own pain and suffering at seeing at like at the breakdown of the family.

And then also seeing our parents suffer. So like, we're getting this double whammy of our family's falling apart. And additionally, we see that our parents are struggling with, with what's going on. And then on top of that, there's this unfair expectation of being, like you said, an informant or, uh, or an emotional.

Um, support that, that we, you know, we don't have the capacity to, to be absolutely. Yeah. It's almost like getting hit with, like, if you're in a boxing ring it's like getting hit like in three different places at the same time. Mm-hmm and it's, that's a lot to handle. It's a lot to take in. Another thing that, uh, we touched on a little bit is big decisions.

So parents, I know sometimes maybe feel kind of lost or they feel emotionally depleted and they might not be, uh, in a good spot to make decisions. So they might rely on other people, especially with their kids to make these decisions for them, or to have a heavy amount of input. I know I've dealt with this with, with my parents, especially with my mom.

And again, I think it comes from a good place, like generally wanna know like what they should do in a given situation, especially certain temperaments, I think struggle more with making decisions. So they might be more likely to rely on their kids, but big decisions can be really, really tough. Cuz for example, Some parents come to their kids and they say, you know, should I get divorced or not?

And you know, we could probably answer, no, no, I don't want you to get divorced. I want you to work through the issues, but to, you know, a 14, 16 year old kid, that's really a tough spot to be in. Because if you say, no, maybe your parents' gonna hate you. If you say yes, and you're probably gonna feel guilty.

And that thing is part of the reason. A lot of us feel like it's our fault. is, um, maybe we did have some sort of input like that. I remember when my parents were going through the process of the divorce, the legal case, it was, um, very messy. It was a three year process, which is insane. Typically two years is like really long.

It's usually done in a year. I, I, three years and it was always dramatic. So I remember my mom kind of just, you know, even bringing us with her to the attorney's office. And I was like, looking back, I'm like, yeah, that definitely shouldn't have happened. No, like this call. Yeah. Yeah. Like I get why she did, she needed the support, but it really should have been maybe her sister or her brother or someone from church, someone like that who could have been there for her, not.

My siblings and I absolutely, absolutely. And I think another one that we touched on too, is the tendency for people like us to grow up too fast. I know that certainly happened with me cuz my parents separated when I was, you know, 11 and I felt like I just skipped years of my life in a very real way. And I know my older brother I'm number two in my family, my older brother even experienced that even more strongly because he had to fill that role in very real way, uh, for my dad's, with my dad's absence.

And so that can be really tough and that can cause so many issues. I think later down the road, what a lot of uh, times happens is, uh, if you have a guy or, or a woman who, you know, skips part of their childhood later in life, they may have the tendency to kinda act like a child. May, maybe not in like ridiculous ways, but even in being irresponsible with their finances, John Eldridge in one of his books, talks about how, you know, a, a boy who kind of skipped certain parts of his childhood and, you know, especially who wasn't delighted and in love the way that he should have been, uh, later in life, when he has the means to do it, he might kind of treat himself with all sort.

Toys such as like cars or technology and things like that. And that's almost a way of going back in time and undoing what he missed. And so I think that happens really often with people like us too. And I know in my experience, um, I certainly, like I said, felt like I matured a lot through the separation and it was, um, it was unfortunate.

And so I think it's something you really need to mourn and kind of grieve, but, but I think it is very common for people like us to, to mature, uh, more quickly than we should. Did you experience that in, in your life? Definitely. And I think a lot of what happens a lot of the time, and this was my case too, is that there's usually one parent who ends up struggling financially.

You know, if you're, if a lot of times the mom, you know, may have stopped working or worked part-time to be home with the kids or something along those lines, then all of a sudden, you know, they're not able to have the financial. Stability that they had when they were married. And so then they're, you know, enter the picture, serious financial struggles.

And for me, that was definitely the case pretty soon after, after the divorce. And so, you know, all, you know, you're 12, I was, you know, probably 13, 14 worrying about things like we need towels or, you know, a vacuum cleaner or like, you know, things like that. And you know, it wasn't, you know, we were, we were taking care of like, we, I definitely like there was always food on the table and things like that.

It never got to, to a really terrible point, which I'm sure has happened to, to people who are listening to this. But yeah, it was definitely a strain you could say. And it was something that at that age was not something I should be worried about. And. I was, it was definitely like a big, a big concern. And now, you know, it's funny, you mentioned the John elders comment, but I definitely find myself overcompensating sometimes where, you know, like I, I experience to a degree, a sense of lack, a sense of there's not enough.

And, and so I kinda go overboard and like, I have to have an abundance, you know, an abundance of, of savings or an abundance of, you know, XYZ in the closet or in the pantry or whatever, you know, sometimes it's like, you know, you have to take a step back and ask yourself, you know, is this really necessary?

But you're, it's like the, that seeking for security that I missed, you know, during those years. And so I think a lot of times. With young adults who, who are going through this, um, you do see a financial burden on one or both parents mm-hmm and that can affect you emotionally like that. Can. Kinda change your gears and, uh, make you more serious and, and grow up faster and, you know, think about those things sooner than you than you really should.

Absolutely. It makes me think of the story that we started with, um, in this question about the 14 year old boy and man that is so devastating, right. It's just, he literally had to worry about kinda like you did. Um, but like you said to a little bit more of an extreme about putting food on the table for his dad, um, who's just totally wrecked by the, the breakdown of his marriage and mom leaving.

And so man, talk about having to grow up too fast and worry about things that you really shouldn't have to worry about. And I I'd imagine in that case, finances were a struggle as well, but that's such a good point. I think it's so common that divorce is just very, very expensive too. So even. Maybe before the divorce, your family was in a decent spot through it.

They could have got kind of cleaned out, honestly, like I know mm-hmm, personally know people who have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars in divorces just know of know of parents and it's insane. And so you could either, you know, maybe lose your savings or lose a lot of your money or you maybe go into debt and that causes all sorts of other issues.

So it makes sense in your case that, you know, you try to overcompensate and still find yourself having that tendency and in an attempt to find security. It totally makes sense. I remember hearing a story. I think this is right, um, that after the American soldiers, uh, freed. Some of the, um, people who are in concentration camps in world war II, they were so mal, uh, nourished.

They were so, uh, depleted of nutrients, they were so hungry that they wanted to just stuff, their faces with food. Um, but they had to control them because if they did that, they would've died. And I think some of them did and I, I don't know the exact stories. It was just, they were so hungry. So they were just trying to overcompensate by eating as much as they could, which ended up really, really harming them.

So I think it's an appropriate analogy and certainly a tragic historical thing. But, um, yeah, I think it's an appropriate analogy for people like us that just to be aware right. Of the tendencies that we have and maybe why we're doing certain things. And then just that awareness alone I've found can be so helpful in maybe course correcting a little bit, you know, making sure that you're not, um, you know, buying a car that's too expensive or putting too many things in your pantry.

I, I know, uh, I think that can help a lot and even being vulnerable with other people, I think is really useful as well. Just sharing kinda like we're doing now with everyone listening. It's like, Hey, this is, you know, a tendency of mine. This is where I struggled. And they're able to kind of call you on it and help you in those situations.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think I'm really glad we, we touched later on in the booklet, in the book on the topic of self care, because I think a lot of the kind of like needs that aren't met, like, you know, financial or emotional during this period, we there ends up like being this emptiness there. And so.

In a different section of the book, we cover a lot of topics regarding self-care so that mm-hmm we can properly fill that gap, um, and not, you know, rely on unhealthy measures. Like we're saying, you know, you know, trying to overcompensate financially, or, or emotionally or physically for something that, that was taken from us, um, during this season.

And if you take care of your needs, basically what you're saying, what I hear you saying is if you take care of your needs, it could remove some of the tendencies or the need to overcompensate, because you're kind of balanced in those other areas. Mm-hmm , mm-hmm . The last thing I was thinking, uh, I love that quote, people can change.

You can't change them. It comes from a business guy. I follow Daniel tardy. Awesome. Awesome guy kind of put that together. And I think it's a great phrase because it really reminds us that people do have the potential to, to change, to grow, to improve, to heal. Um, but we can't do it for them. And I think there's just such a tendency, kinda like we talked about before to, to just to be the savior, to jump in, to, to change someone.

And I think the better approach is to change yourself. and to really grow and become the best version of yourself. And by doing that, that alone inspires change in other people. And if you've never experienced that, I understand why you might not think that's possible, but it's actually true. And alcoholics anonymous, the support groups for people who are, um, alcoholics, or they, you know, maybe love someone who is an alcoholic.

Uh, that's what they teach the spouses to do. They say. We understand you want to help your spouse stop drinking so much, but you can't do that by, you know, nagging them. You can't do that by maybe forcing them to change. You really have to do it by just becoming the best you becoming healthy and whole.

And then what will happen is that person eventually will see what you have, see your joy, see how good life is for you, and they'll want it to cause that's attractive. And then they'll have the internal drive, the impetus to then change their own life. And that's really the way that it has to work. And that's super hard.

to swallow. I know personally I've struggled with this. Absolutely. Yeah. I think it kind of comes down to controlling the controllables and your parents are not something you can control, but you can, you are in charge of your own choices. And you know, recently someone challenged me with this of. You know, what kind of person do you wanna be and really taking that into serious consideration and then asking yourself, like, does this choice, you know, contribute to the person you wanna be or not?

I think leading by example in that way can be, you know, fill you with so much peace and satisfaction. And then also, you know, not, maybe not always, but a lot of the times can also offer some encouragement and inspiration to your parents. Totally. Yeah, no, that's a great point. And I think the piece that you experience from that, just kind of letting go of the things you can't control.

Like you said, it's amazing. , it's so good. And, uh, sure. It can be hard to get to that point, but once you do it, it's so good. And, and you're right. It's, it's a good point to say that it won't always happen. Where if you become the best version of yourself, then it's automatically gonna change everyone around you.

It's just not automatic. Of course, they still have to choose, but it makes it much more likely. And, uh, if nothing else, I think it's gonna put you in a better spot in life and it's gonna help you to just build a better future for yourself. Definitely. Good stuff. Miranda. Let's dive into the next question.

Okay.

Question 28. How do I deal with my parents moving on in life and relationships? Years ago I visited a friend's family. The parents are divorced though. The marriage was annoyed. It was still difficult for my friend to see his mom dating again. That weekend, his mom's new boyfriend from out of town visited without my friend, knowing he was coming, it made my friend extremely uncomfortable and caused him a lot of anxiety to be blindsided and thrown into what felt like forced bonding.

Sadly, that story is not uncommon watching your parents move on is anything but easy, especially when it happens so fast. It might look like watching your parents start dating again, or get remarried looking for a fresh start. Mom and or dad can even abandon their family for a new family, welcoming a parent's new boyfriend or girlfriend into your life is extremely painful and challenging.

Building a relationship with your stepparent might be harder than you think it should be, or even feel impossible. You might even realize that mom and dad are breaking their wedding vows by the way they're living, which is even more heartbreaking. Honestly, it's not supposed to be this way. And this is something that is very difficult to endure your parent's significant other or new spouse brings a whole host of problems and challenges into your life.

Especially if that person is around often or moves in with you and your parent, you may feel angry, sad, hurt, trapped, betrayed as if you don't have control over your life and completely overwhelmed by all the change and accompanying emotions. You also will likely feel pressure from your parent to accept this new person into your life right away and be happy for them.

This is neither fair, nor realistic. You are entitled to feel everything listed above and more. And to express those feelings. If your parent cannot receive them, divulge your thoughts to a mentor or another adult, you can trust our parents can get so consumed by seeking their own happiness or trying to move on from the hurt they experience that they overlook the suffering.

Their new life causes us. It doesn't mean our parents are bad people or that they don't love us, but we are nevertheless put in a situation that should never happen in the first place. It is not okay. And we are not obliged to pretend that it is first never feel that you need to force yourself to have a relationship with a boyfriend, girlfriend, or new spouse of your parent.

You have every right to take that at your own pace. You can be kind and cordial to them while still holding back from engaging in a relationship with them. If mom or dad are forcing you or even threatening you to have a relationship with their new spouse partner or their children kindly yet firmly place your boundaries, tell them what you will and will not allow if you need space, because the person is around all the timers, moved in, pick up a hobby or activity that you will enjoy and will take some time away from the house.

Start working a part-time job if possible, or stay with a friend or family member every so often. It's okay. Not to be able to handle the proximity of the situation. Part of the reason it's hard to watch your parents move on is that it's not supposed to be this way. Marriage is supposed to be for life.

It might sound idealistic, but that's what God intended and what the marriage vows promise. When that shatters it is naturally very disruptive. It's okay to feel that way. If you don't feel comfortable with it, you can admit to them that this isn't how it's supposed to be. Your parents moving on, can also ruin any hope you're holding onto that.

They would get back together subconsciously or consciously. We often hope that our parents might reunite and find a happy ending to their broken marriage, watching them date and remarry, Smothers that hope if you have concerns about a parent's dating relationship, communicate that to them. See the bonus material for a script on having a difficult conversation.

If your parent's significant other or stepparent is mistreating you. Don't stay silent. Tell your parents or a mentor. If your concerns are dismissed, place, proper boundaries to protect yourself at the end of the day, your direct influence on your parents is likely very limited, except that you have limited control over the situation.

It's not your responsibility to be your parents' moral policemen. It's not your responsibility to be the savior of their souls. It's not your responsibility to fix or change them. You can always speak the truth to them in love, but never think their actions are your fault. They're not instead focus on living your own life.

Give yourself what you need. Space time with friends, activities that bring you joy or even therapy to cope with this difficult situation, become the best version of your. Heal and grow. So you could feel whole again and experience the joy of living a life fully alive. Your example will speak louder than any words you say

Miranda. Another really important question. Uh, I think the first thing that comes to mind with it is we often get thrusted into some pretty awkward situations. Kind of like I mentioned with my friends, it can be really hard to just be forced into that without any sort of choosing on our end and having very little control over the situation.

Yeah. It's definitely, I think, depending on how your parents handle it and you know, when in the process it happens, it can be very traumatic. Mm-hmm um, that was certainly certainly the case for me. I. Yeah, it's just, it's really complicated I guess, but there's a lot of things that can go wrong, unfortunately with it and, you know, yeah.

It, it's, it's a tough, it's a really tough situation that I think is normalized. So, you know, it's kind of, if you watch a movie about, you know, people who are divorced or TV shows, or, um, just talking to, you know, your average person on the street, like, they're, they're gonna say that, you know, it's pretty normal.

Once, once people get divorced to start dating again, maybe not immediately after, but at some point in the future. And it's just treated like, it's a very normal thing that that is is okay. And, you know, I think it, people miss the effect that it has on the kids and how. Absolutely unnatural. It is for us and how, um, like disturbing it can be for us to see our, our mom and dad with, with someone who isn't our parent.

And there is this mentality of, and, you know, we kind of go into this in different parts of the book, but there is this mentality of like, you, you should want your parents to be happy. Mm. Um, and if you don't, you're not a good, you know, being a good kid, you're being selfish. And, you know, I think that's definitely a false dichotomy.

Like we absolutely want our parents to be happy, but, you know, to say that they need someone else to be happy. Like that's, that's not true. Even if they feel that way, that's not objectively a true statement, but also for, for your parent to date may not be the right thing. But also even if, if the situation, you know, maybe there was an enrollment and.

And dating is kind of permissible, you know, to have an expectation for us to like be on board right off the bat and, and like that there's no awkwardness that there's no, like pain is, is totally unfair. And I think it's really sad that so many of us have to go through this without feeling like we, we have our feelings, um, validated in any way.

Um, instead there it's very dismissed mm-hmm and depressed and. Just unfortunate all around, I think. Absolutely. And I love what you said about the question that a lot of people will ask like, well, don't you want your parents to be happy? And the answer it's kind of a loaded question cause the answer of course is like, well, yes I do.

But another perspective is, but not at all costs. It's like, there's a lot of things you can do that may make you give you some emotional satisfaction that might be really bad things to do. and we wouldn't say that we want our parents or anyone we know to be happy at the expense of doing something, you know, morally wrong or at the expense of doing something.

Um, that's just not good for them. And you know, like you said, in some cases, maybe it's, um, they're, you know, in a spot where they can date in other cases, they're not. Um, but either way we wouldn't say that we want them to be happy at any cost, cuz we wouldn't say that about anyone in our lives. And I think that a good question is, is it more important to be happy or is it more important to do what is right and.

It's a difficult question, cuz I think a lot of times in our culture, we just exalt happiness as like the ultimate goal and kind of anything it takes to get there is permissible, even if we hurt people along the way. And I think that's often what happens in situations like this. Um, again, there's a lot of details.

We're not judging every person's situation. I don't wanna make it sound like it's so black and white cuz sometimes there, you know, there's situations that deserve a little bit more nuance, but overall I think we can talk about these things like this and just caution that, um, when people ask you that question, there's more to it than just that.

And I think so often because of that pressure, we feel MERTA. We don't say anything, we just kind of shut our mouths and we. Yeah, just kind of keep quiet about what we might be struggling with. And especially if mom or dad just seem like they're in a better spot. Um, we might just be happy for them and not wanna kind of break up their sort of, um, you know, their dream or their happy place or whatever you wanna call it.

And, and it could be, it could be really hard. Absolutely. And I think a really hard part of this is when you are still living at home and you're going through this, you, you, you get this feeling of being trapped because mm-hmm, , this is painful. This is really uncomfortable. And so emotionally, like you're trapped in that regard, but then physically, you know, you're dependent on your parent.

You need to go home. Um, you need to spend time there and you might be in a situation where one of your parents started dating and like that person is over. A lot, like you, you physically, it feels like you're trapped. You know, it feels like you have, and I think, unfortunately that's when some of those unhealthy coping mechanisms that we talk about kick in.

Um, we talk about that in a different part of the book, but it's so inescapable like that, the pressing reality of like my mom or my dad is with someone new and I can't do anything about it. I can't say anything about it. I can't feel anything about it. And I also just like, can't get away from it, you know, cuz cuz I need to be home so I can do my homework or you know, go to sleep, you know, or eat, get some, you know, food, things like that.

I'm I'm dependent. So I think all of that, like we totally understandably turn, try to turn to things that will bring us any sort of comfort, any sort of relief, any sort of, yeah, just like just relief. And so that's when. I think, uh, a lot of us might turn to things that are actually like really, really destructive.

Um, but we feel like there's no other, there's nothing else we can do. Absolutely. I, it makes me think of a young woman that I corresponded with who, uh, I forget, I think it was a messy situation with her parents, but basically if she would've really said what she thought to her dad, he would've pulled away financial.

She, she knows that for certain. And so that's a really tough spot to be. And if you're, you know, dependent on your parents financially, like you said, it's really difficult to be able to express everything that you want maybe to them. And so I guess our advice here is first off, kinda like we covered in the, the book.

It's okay to feel whatever you feel like you have permission to feel that. And, you know, even if on the other end of the spectrum, this isn't a very big deal to you. Like maybe it's like, okay, I'd never really. Much about it. That's okay. You know, you, you don't have to totally have experience what Marin, ours sharing or the stories that we told.

Um, it's okay. Wherever you're at. That's okay. But, but it's okay to feel hurt by it if you do as well. And, uh, in that case, you might need to kind of fly under the radar a little bit until you can get on your own financially before you're able to maybe say the things that you really, that need to be said, and that could be a tough spot, but you can put little boundaries in place.

You can do some of the minor things in the meantime, even while you're living at home or dependent on your parents. Um, and then later maybe your. Could be a little bit more open with them now, ideally, you'd be able to be open with them even while you're at home, they would receive what you're saying and just like, love you through that and be empathetic.

But we all know that doesn't always happen, unfortunately. So you really have to be, uh, kind of cunning and, and just use your best judgment in these situations. That's why it's so difficult. I think we give some good principles, um, in the book and in this podcast, but then the application of those principles take some real judgment, take some real prudence and, and that can be hard.

Yeah. I just wanna encourage anyone who maybe it's struggling through this. And I, I just remember feeling like I had no one that I could talk to about it because everyone, whenever I did tried to bring it up, it was like, I mean, yeah, I can see where you're coming from, but this is normal. This is okay.

This is, you know, and, and I just, everywhere. I turned, you know, friends that loved me or family member, you know, everyone that. and all other regards were, were great people in my life for this specific issue. There was no real empathy. There was no true understanding because it's like, yeah, it's like going to the dentist, you know, it's like, it's not fun.

Mm-hmm , but it's part of life and it's normal and it's gonna be okay. And I just want you to know, you know, like it is okay to not be okay with this and to feel just pain and hurt. And sometimes, you know, you might feel betrayed or yeah, there can be a lot of really like angry, you know, you might feel angry about the situation.

So we, we definitely want to just offer like that empathy. And, you know, again, going back to our pre the previous question we addressed controlling the controllables, you know, you may not be in a position where. You can even talk to your parents about it. Hopefully, hopefully you can, but if you can't, you know, you, you do have control over, um, how you, how you handle the situation and you have control over ships or taking care of your yourself, physically.

Those are things that, that you do have control over. And, you know, even if it's in the smallest ways, uh, making, making, taking steps towards health. Yeah, I definitely. I think it's a hard, it's definitely can be a really tough situation to be in, but there's definitely a lot of hope too. Yeah, absolutely. And like you said, we certainly get it.

We've been through this ourselves. It's difficult. And I, I love your advice to talk to someone. So basically guys, everyone listening, talk to someone on the outside because especially if you're really dependent on mom or dad at home, it's important maybe to kind of get away from it and get in contact with someone who gets it, who really understands and who will empathize with you.

And who's not really in the midst of the situation. And so I wanted to give a little plug for our community. I think this is a great tool for you to do exactly that. And so if you wanted join our online community, you can go to restored ministry.com/community. Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/community.

On there. You, you can discuss these things with young people like you who've been through them. We get it. Like you're never gonna face a situation where someone's like, uh, no, this is normal. Like, this is good. No, we, we get it. We're gonna talk truthfully to you and we're gonna listen empathetically. So we'd love to have you in the community.

Again. ReSTOR ministry.com/. Community. I think another very real struggle is kind of being forgotten when mom or dad move on in life. And that might be in a new family that might be, uh, in a new city that might just be not far away from where you're living now, but they just get so consumed with their new life that you're kind of put in the back burner.

And I've heard this, especially from people we've worked with Miranda who maybe mom or dad started, you know, another family, they have step siblings now. And it seems like the step siblings kind of get all the attention and it's almost like they're just forgotten and left over. And that is a really hard place to be.

Oh yeah. And I think it's like almost cliche, right? Like Cinderella, you know, stepsisters, get all the, get all the goods and Cinderella's kind of, you know, made the skull made. And I think most, most situations aren't that traumatic, but I do think that our parents, because. You know, they're in a new relationship.

They want to make a good impression. They want to, they go like overboard to, um, tend to step siblings and to, yeah. Give them attention, make them feel welcome, et cetera, et cetera. Mm-hmm . And so we're kind of the person that they're dating or the person that maybe they even are newly married to wanting to make everything go smooth.

So we might, you know, our relationship with our parents might fall on the wayside, which can also be really hard. And yeah, because the person they're dating, unfortunately, because which is, you know, an understandable reaction because that's not how it should. Right. It's so messy. It's so messy. And it's almost like we're a reminder of a past failure, right.

Being from the original family and this new family or new life is just a new start. It's kinda like a fresh start, so to speak. And so we just get forgotten and, and then it doesn't always happen. Not, we're not pretending it does. Sometimes parents, you know, do their best to balance both. Um, but it really shouldn't be this way.

And it's just so messy and such a hard place to be. I think another really common thing is kind of, like we mentioned in the book, uh, parent moving on really quickly, like after a divorce that happens a lot and that's like really damaging and hard. Um, but also moving on without telling you, like. It's really typical.

I remember one of my friends, one of my close friends in college, she, um, yeah, she just found out her dad was getting married. I think she might have just found out through like a, save the date or an invitation or something, man. That is tough. You know, when you maybe lose contact with one of your parents and then you find out, oh, they're getting married or they already got married and they already have a family.

And I know there's really messy situations where maybe there was an affair going on and there was this whole other family that, that your parent was providing for or engaging with that you had no clue about. So there can be a lot of surprise. There can be a lot of fast moving that can be really, really difficult to stomach.

Absolutely. One other thing I think we struggle with too, is I think all of us at some level have a hope that our parents could get back together and make their marriage work again, like heal the marriage, make it whole, bring our family back together. I, I think that's such a deep desire in all of us.

Like we just want our families to be whole. We just ultimately would want them to, to be back together. Even if we feel like that's not even possible. Even if we know intellectually, it's like, no, that would never happen. Uh, I think there's just this little shimmer of hope in most of our hearts that wants that at some level.

And I remember in the book that Layla Miller wrote a primal loss where she shares the stories of adult children of divorce. One of 'em said at some point, I don't remember what part of the book, but they basically said, uh, once one of their parents died, it really destroyed all hope. They had. For their parents to get back together and they didn't even realize they were holding onto that for years.

It was like the first thought that came into their mind when they found out that their mom or dad died. It was just that, oh, well I guess mom and dad won't get back together, which is really profound the years, a few years after the separation or divorce. That's, you know, a hope that we, that we have when we're faced with a situation where we, that hope is crushed like that, that hope is, um, is taken away from us.

Like it, it it's devastating. And it's like, it's a deep, very real loss. And I think it's something that needs to be acknowledged, you know, within us and of two people who had, had vowed to spend their, their lives together. Like. That is a good thing, you know, to, it might seem juvenile or like this is, you know, impossible would never happen.

And you know, most of the times it doesn't, but I think it's just important to affirm, like that is a good desire. That is a valid hope. And, you know, losing that when, when you're faced with, with parents, moving on is a true loss and it's something that needs to be grieved. So. Yeah, I think Myrta one thing you taught me a while back was that we all have this longing for redemption and you see that a lot in stories, whether it's a movie or a novel, how, you know, so many stories are stories of redemption where there's some brokenness or some big problem in a person's life.

And then the whole story is really a struggle to deal with that and to come through on the other side. And so I think, like you said, it's just so natural and normal to, to feel this desire. Um, even if it won't become a reality or even if it can't become a reality, cuz maybe, you know, one parent died or there's like an really toxic, abusive situation that the parents have to be separated.

It, it it's so hard, but it makes sense. Absolutely. One thing that you'll notice guys that we put a lot in this book, it's kind of recurring theme is that you just need to focus on yourself. It doesn't mean you shouldn't love and help other people or love and help your parents in some ways, but that the focus needs to be on you.

And like we covered in the commentary on the last, uh, question from the book. We really want you to know that you have to control what you can control. You have to just focus on becoming the best you, and through that, it'll be the best thing you can do to, to help your mom or your dad. And so we, we really reemphasize that again and again, in the book.

And so I just wanna encourage you to pick up the book, get the book. Um, I'll tell you a little bit in the outro, how to do that. Um, but we really, really, um, hope this is helpful. We've been working on this for a long time. We've put a lot of thought into it and gotten a lot of feedback on how to make it better.

And so this really is a manual, a playbook for you to navigate these difficult situations. Um, and one thing I, I know for myself, it's like, even if I know some of these things, one, it's always good to be reminded and two in a really intense situation. It's easy for all that knowledge to just go out the window.

And so if you have something physically before you like this book where you can, in a situation where you're struggling with your parents, or you wanna know how to deal with them, moving on. You can just open up that question, read it and be reminded, uh, of what you can do, what you should do in that situation.

And also just receive some empathy from, from us, uh, from me writing this book because you, you deserve that. You really do. And so, uh, one thing I also wanted to say, I know in the content that I read, there's some mention of bonus material. So bonus material, there's a bunch of bonus material that we include.

I won't go into it right now, but we include with the book that is meant to help you even further. So that comes free when you purchase the book, but it's really there to, to offer a little bit more guidance than we were able to cover within the content of the book itself. Miranda, thank you so much for, for being here.

Thanks for discussing this. I think this is gonna help a lot of people.

I wanna leave you with a question that you can think about you can reflect on and that's this, what are one or two things that you can do? To love and help your parents today, or this week,

give that some thought, come up with some really practical things that you can do. And hopefully the content in this episode helped you figure that. Again, you could get the first chapters for free from my new book. It's not your fault. A practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce.

Just go to ReSTOR ministry.com/books. Again, ReSTOR ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. Just enter your name and email and we'll send you the first chapters for free. Go to ReSTOR ministry.com/books. Or just click the link in the show notes. The resources mentioned on the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 52.

Thank you so much for listening, and this has been useful. Feel free to subscribe, and if you know someone who's struggling from their parents to divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you are born to be.

#051: Music: A Powerful Tool to Help You Cope & Heal | Jenny & Tyler

Music has always been a tool to cope with the pain and problems from my parents’ divorce. Two artists whose music helped me a lot are Jenny and Tyler, a married musical duo. Their music and marriage have especially convinced me that love can last. 

In this episode, they share:

• Lessons they’ve learned after years in marriage that would’ve been helpful to know before they got married. 

• Encouragement to anyone from a broken home who’s afraid of love and marriage. 

• Advice to anyone who’s afraid of taking risks - as artists, they know a thing or two about taking risks

Listen to Jenny & Tyler

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

One thing that has always helped me deal with the pain and the problems from my parents' divorce is music playing it. I played piano for a bit growing up, but especially listening to it. There's just something about music that was so helpful. And it really became for me a healthy way of coping instead of a lot of the unhealthy ways that I was.

Tempted to, and two artists that really inspired me and his music just helped me a ton. Join me on the show today. They're a beautiful, married couple that really sing about love and especially the messiness of life. And one of the things about their music and especially their beautiful marriage have done for me is they've convinced me that love can last.

And I'm so excited for you to meet them. And in the show, some of the things you're gonna hear, what you're gonna get out of it. You're gonna hear us discuss lessons that they've learned after years in marriage. That really would've been helpful for them to know before they got married. They also share some advice.

Anyone who comes from a broken home is maybe terrified, afraid of love and marriage. We talk about why music helps us deal with the pain and messiness of life, and also how music can bring so much beauty, so much joy into the grayness and dullness of our lives. And then they offer some advice to anyone who's afraid of taking risks.

As artists they've had to take a lot of risks, they know a thing or two about. And so they share some of their wisdom that they've gained along the. But honestly, most of all, I'm just excited for you to hear from this beautiful, married couple who prove that love can last and can be beautiful even years into marriage.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 51. We have a big announcement for you guys. We've written a book now I'm teasing it.

Now there's gonna be more info on it later, how you can buy it all sorts of things. But just to let you know, this is a practical guide. This book is a practical guide to help you successfully navigate the pain and problems from your parents' divorce or separation. It's written in a question and answer format with advice on how to handle the most common challenges that people like us face such.

I struggle with low self-esteem. How can I become more confident after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted and adequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me. Self-harm is my way of coping. How do I stop? How can I cope in healthy ways instead of unhealthy ways? What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life?

How do I avoid repeating the mistakes my parents made and build a healthy marriage. I feel broken. Like something is wrong with me. How can I heal and feel whole again? What can I do to heal my relationship with my parents? Why does God let bad things happen? Like my parents divorce, how can I discern my calling in life?

When I feel so anxious and uncertain and many. Questions that we answer over 30 questions and answers in this book. And some of the benefits you'll learn how to cope with your pain in healthy ways. Instead of unhealthy ways, you'll become a better, stronger, more virtuous person. If you put the advice in the book into action, you'll learn how to overcome emotional problems.

You'll be given tactics to build healthy relationships. You'll find evidence based strategies that help you. You'll learn how to navigate your relationship with your parents, and you'll learn how to improve your relationship and even heal your relationship with God. And this stuff is so practical. This isn't theory, it's down to earth.

It's common sense advice. That's based on research based on expert advice and the stories that we've heard from people like you, people who come from broken families. Again, it comes out in September more info to follow on this. The next podcast episode, but if you want to get in on the special offers that we're gonna be offering before the launch, go ahead and subscribe to our email list@restoredministry.com.

Again, restored ministry.com. Just scroll to the bottom of the page, put in your email, your name. I'm so excited to share this book with you. We've been working on it for months and the feedback we've gotten from people who've been given an advanced copy. Who've given us feedback on it have been so solid.

So we're really excited to share this book with you more in photo. My guests today are Jenny and Tyler. They met in 2004 at the university of Delaware, and it was there that they started writing songs together and even performing together as friends before long, they started dating. And two years after that, they recorded a record together in Nashville.

And that same year, Tyler asked Jenny to marry him today. They live in Nashville with their three daughters, Jenny and Tyler. Sold over 35,000 albums. They've seen over 20 million streams on apple music and Spotify and played over 1100 concert dates over the past decade of playing music together, their songs have been featured on ABC's pretty little liars, New York med MTV's teen mom, CBC's Heartland.

And YouTube's kid president aside from music, Jenny and Tyler are passionate about fighting human trafficking, which is the modern slavery. In fact, in nearly every show they raise. For the organization, international justice mission. And they say that being a part of something bigger than the two of them has strengthened their marriage.

Absolutely love this couple. They're so real. They're such a beautiful model for married love. I know you're gonna be inspired by them and I know you're gonna love their music if you check it out, but let's not wait any longer. Here's my conversation with Jenny and Tyler,

Jenny and Tyler. Thank you so much for coming on the. Thanks for having us. Yeah, man. Thank you. I've been a fan of yours for a while. Like I mentioned when I was back in college in Steubenville, um, my roommate went to your concert and he's like, you gotta listen to these guys. And so I did and I just, yeah, love your music.

You both are really an inspiring couple and that's something that's always, uh, really stuck with me. Just seeing the way that you love each other. And I'm sure you guys aren't perfect. I'm sure you have your flaw, but, um, you should see us fight now. No but yeah, but you guys, it's so inspiring, especially as someone who comes from a broken family who just didn't see marriage go well, uh, it's really inspiring to see a couple who can, you know, build a, a beautiful marriage and make love last.

And so that's why I was so excited to, to talk to you, cuz I think everyone in our audience is so hungry for that. We wanna. Bill loved it last. We wanna not repeat what we saw in our parents' marriage. And so I I'm psyched to, to talk with you guys. I wanted to start with your story. How did you meet? Tell us?

Well, we met at the university of Delaware back in 2004, so we're. Getting old, but it's okay. um, we, yeah, we met through a campus ministry, the Baptist student ministry on a bus that was taking students from campus to a local church. I sat behind Tyler and he was super friendly and turned around and started talking to me.

And I ended up getting involved in that Baptist student ministry, which he was already part of. So we started hanging out a ton. Pleading worship together, performing writing. And it just like, there was a friendship that, you know, turned into a dating relationship and the musical aspect of things, and it was kind of like a never look back sort of.

Sort of relationship my life. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I don't have anything to add. that's beautiful. No, no, I love it. And it's, it's cool that you guys were able to start that friendship first. I think, especially just in our dating culture today, it's not always possible. Especially if you're like a professional in the world, a lot of times, like the only time you might be exposed to, uh, someone is through maybe a dating app or, or going out on dates, maybe your friend groups aren't together.

So it's awesome. You guys had that at that point in your life? Yeah, I, we say now, like, I don't know how people. Do the dating thing anymore. I agree meeting in college was such a gift because I can't imagine having to do all the online stuff. And I know it works out for people, but I'm very grateful that I'm even just grateful that texting wasn't a thing.

When we started dating, like nobody was texting, we had to meet up or like talk to each other on the phone. And I'm grateful that that. That was what was going on when we, when we met each other. I hear you. I hear you. I, uh, I wanna fast forward a little bit. So you guys, how long have you been married at this point?

Um, it'll be 14 years in about two and a half or three weeks. Yeah. On the 30th of June. Yeah. Yep. End of the month. Congratulations. And that's just amazing. It's such a big, that's crazy. seriously. 15 years. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. So what, what lessons, uh, have you learned after that many years in marriage that maybe you wish you would've known earlier that would've been helpful?

Before you got married for me, it's seeking to understand the other person, uh, like really understand, figuring out where they're coming from. Like yeah. What is causing them to say this right now? Could it be X, Y, and Z that they've experienced? And just like, how is, how is that making them feel at this moment?

I struggle with empathy, man. And Jenny has always been better. With empathy than I have. Mm-hmm . And so that's something I'm, I'm learning, I'm wanting more of, yeah. To like the scripture actually talks about like trying to under like live in an understanding way. And I think for me, that's not just, it, it takes a lot of listening and not, uh, having anything.

Kind of in the back of my head as a response, like you're saying this right now. So this is my defense because I'm, I don't know if you do engram stuff, but I'm, I think I'm a seven wing eight. So I've got this like challenger wing that I, I wanna be defensive. I, I don't wanna li my natural response is I don't wanna listen.

I don't wanna understand where she's coming from and I wanna just defend how I am, right. Or how, how I think I'm right. And so, uh, really fighting against those tendencies in myself. Um, and then, and again, just seeking to understand Jenny's perspective. I wish I had implemented that, like from day one, I feel like I'm J it's, it's almost 14 years of marriage and, and I'm just learning that mm-hmm , which is so sad, but yeah, I feel like on top of that forgiveness, um, yeah, forgiveness is just.

It's a daily conversation. Uh, if it's, if it's not daily, it's almost daily. Oftentimes it's more than once per day. Uh, we're we're speaking with the language of, I screwed up in this way. I did this, like, I really did this. I chose to do wrong against you and will you please forgive me? Hmm. Um, and our kids do it and it's more than like, I don't even want to hear, I'm sorry.

Most of the time for my kids, I just want to. Will you forgive me and yeah, I, I mean, I'm sorry. It helps sometimes, but , but it's getting kind of right. Getting reconciled, um, has always been part of our relationship mm-hmm and I feel like, because we've had that, we that's why we're in the place we are today.

Yeah. We, we definitely, I there's the. I don't even know. Is it from the Bible that, do you not let the sun go down while you're angry? Or is that just something somebody told me that I was, I think it's it's, it's from it's from the Bible. I mean, I think that has always been like, we don't go to bed angry.

We really don't or if we do, I mean, I mean, we've been in bed and we've been angry, but we've like always been like. We don't go to sleeping. Yeah. We're at least like it's not resolved. Yeah. Like, or somewhat resolved. Like, will you please forgive me? I I'm sorry. Or, or it's like, we're in enough of a good place.

like, maybe it's not all over. Yeah. But like, we're not, you know, just, yeah. We're not feeling totally separated or something. I think that's a big thing. And the, the seeking to understand, I, I think that's so important. You have to. being married is just giving so much grace and asking for so much grace. And then when I think about something that I kind of wish I'd heard before we got married, I think we I've, we've found, especially since having kids, our, our oldest is about to be eight.

You really have to fight for time together and make that just like such a. Huge priority. Yeah. Like don't let that slip away. Cause in the early years of being married, it won't probably be as hard to be like, oh, we've got a date night or we do all this stuff together. But as it gets, as it gets, um, as you are married for longer and longer, there's a tendency to just well with kids or with life or whatever.

Well, okay. with kids, especially in our life. It's just so easy to focus on everything else and feel like roommates instead of being married. And I think that could probably happen even without kids just getting comfortable and not prioritizing like really growing the relationship. I think you can get a little complacent maybe.

Absolutely. And complacency just is the worst. It, yeah. Never leads to something good ever. I've I've never seen it lead to something good, but that, that advice is fantastic. And I heard a quote recently when it comes to like listening and understanding. So like you were talking about, and Jenny, like you touched on as well, listening is not waiting your turn to speak.

It's really? Yeah. Just it's really just listening to reflect, not to refute and yes, that's been something that I am still trying to learn. to be honest with you guys. Yeah. It's, it's hard. It's really hard. Cuz I think, you know, especially when you're talking about something that's difficult. It can be so easy to just get defensive and so easy to just throw up walls and, uh, want like you, like you guys said wanna be right.

Instead of wanting to kind of resolve it as a team and reach whatever, you know, solution that you're trying to, to get to. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, we happen to be right by our bookshelf. So I'm gonna read a quote from the world, according to Mr. Rogers. Nice. Uh, two quotes actually listening is a very active awareness of the coming together of at least two lives.

Listening. As far as I'm concerned is certainly a prerequisite. A prerequisite prerequisite. prerequisite. It's hard to say that word today. It is of, of love. One of the most essential ways of saying I love you is being a receptive listener. And then here's, uh, here's a kind of a paraphrase of that. Um, another quote by him by Fred Rogers listening is where love begins.

Listening to ourselves. Then to our neighbors. Wow. Profound. Mm-hmm I know, dude, Mr. Rogers, Mr. Rogers, see, do we even need to add anything to that? trusty. Let's just let's end the end, the podcast now and, uh, try to live that out. Yeah. Yeah. And for anyone who accused keeping track and maybe judging all of us, um, that was, uh, Ephesians 4 26 is where it says not to let the sun go down on your anger.

So just in case anyone's judging I'm like, was that in there? I think it's , it's good in there. Nice work Googling that maybe . Yeah. Yeah. I didn't have that memorized just in case anyone's judging me. Okay. Um, but no such good advice. And I, I was curious also, uh, what advice would you give to a young person who comes from a broken family?

Who's maybe afraid of love. They're afraid of intimacy. They're afraid of. Marriage cuz they just don't want it to end the way that they saw their parents' marriage and they, they may even doubt that love could last in the first place. So what advice would you give to them specifically? You wanna go, man?

Uh, I know what I wanna say. You, you do what you, since you really know right now, what I'd like to say to you or to whomever, uh, happens to be in that situation and have that background is. There are so many false definitions of love out there. And I feel like the first thing that I need to do is look at what true love is.

And for that, I go. To the scriptures. Uh, and this is an older, maybe an old school language type of version, not as old as, as some, but it still says it. Well, it says, uh, love is patient. Um, and that word patient means long suffering. It means that you are okay with being in pain for a long time. So that's how that is the first.

Adjective use of love that it is patient or long suffering. The second is that love is kind, and I feel like we could stop there, uh, kind of like we did with Mr. Rogers quotes. Like if, if you see a love and if you experience a love that suffers for a long time, so experiences a lot of pain and still gets through it and still continues to love.

And if that love is kind. So not harsh. I'll continue. When you see a love that does not envy or boast, like when you see a love that, um, I think we all struggle with envy to some extent. Definitely. Um, it's like when we compare ourselves, when we. When I compare my body with someone or my voice or my talents or my money or my possessions, like any, when I do that, it makes me a bitter person and it makes me a, uh, unhappy person.

So love doesn't envy. It doesn't, it doesn't boast. It's not prideful or arrogant. Like it's not conceited. It doesn't have this ego where it's like self consumed. Rather love is looking outward. Like it is, it is looking towards the good of others. And, and it there's this whole definition here. I, I don't even think I'm gonna go through the whole thing, but this, the definition is found in first Corinthians 13, four through kind of four through 13.

And it actually starts a little bit earlier in like context wise. It, it starts or even earlier than that, but, but, but again, patience and kindness. If love can just embody those two adjectives again, man, that is powerful. Love that. And that's love that is not disappointing. Mm-hmm um, and, and it's love that will not be, um, dissatisfying either.

It will actually be a love. Brings a fullness, um, a full kind of life. I think that we all. Long for, for life that is full. And that can last, I want my Marvel movies to last forever, but they only last two or three hours. Like I, you know, I want my, I want concerts to last forever. Yeah. I want, uh, to surf a wave that lasts forever.

I want meals to last forever. Like I love eating oh, me too. Like a good steak or something. It's yes, but I get full and I can't eat more and I get tired and I can't surf more and I have to get sleep, so I can't watch anymore Marvel movies. So like, but those longings are there. And, and the thing about love is that it actually satisfies those longings because.

The love this love that is being spoken of in this passage in first Corinthians 13, is this divine love this, uh, in the Greek agape love that. If that is your, your, your starting place, your definition, your template for real love. Then when you see something that is called love, that doesn't look like this.

You can call it out for what it is and you can say, okay, well, well, I haven't been hurt by love. I've been hurt by something that's called love. That is actually not love at all. Sound good. I'll end. I'll end with that, I guess. And I, I was just gonna add that if, and this, it sounds like very oversimplified or something, but if we didn't have the Lord in our lives, we would not be married anymore.

I mean, I just, I can think of too many things where it would just be like, if I hadn't experienced that kind of forgiveness and grace, I might not be willing to extend it. I don't, I could see things that would. Have totally been like, oh, this isn't worth it anymore. You know, this, this is too hard. Well, I, if I hadn't experienced the, the love of the Lord, I would probably wouldn't be alive right now.

I think. Or at least I might be in jail. um, and certainly we wouldn't be near no, but, but I also mean like if we had gotten. And we didn't have, like, if we both got married and we didn't know the Lord, right. I don't think we would be married. I don't think we'd be married anymore either. Yeah. I just, and that sounds like such a cliche, but I, I really do think it's true, but it's because we've experienced that love that I just talked about the forgiveness of God and his kindness to, to us who have.

Done so many wrongs to him over and over and over and been so faithless to him and cheated on him so many times, uh, with like fill in the blank and he. Is faithful to us, even when we're faithless, he keeps pursuing us and loving us and calling us to himself. And he does it in a kind way. He doesn't do it in a like yeah.

In like a hard kind of mean way. And I think because we've experienced that. It's it's way easier for us. Yeah, not that it's our natural, it's not our, like our default, our default is like, my default is to, to be mean to, to our kids and to be like, why are you doing this again? And blah, blah, blah. But when I think of how God has treated me, it, it softens me up a lot.

And it, um, it helps me to extend that forgiveness and that grace that, uh, Jenny was talking about. Beautiful. Yeah. And thanks for your vulnerability. I know it's most people aren't this open, but it's beautiful. And we can learn a lot from that. I think. And really what I hear you saying is that God's the perfect lover.

He's the perfect spouse. And so we need to model ourselves after him. Because he, he just never gives that. He keeps coming after us, even when we really don't deserve it. We, we don't deserve it. Yeah. He knows we need him and he keeps coming after us again and again and again. And I love what you said about really redefining.

What love is for you. Like you said, there's so many false ideas, especially in your industry, you know, for sure. I'm sure you guys see this a lot. Just all these false ideas of love and music and mm-hmm for me, it was, yeah. It's. Uh, refreshing to listen to you guys because you're actually hitting on the truth of, of what love is and that that's what the research shows.

It shows that if you want a good marriage, you have to purify your idea of love. You need a realistic concept of love. And if you could have that, then you can have a good marriage. But if you're, you know, expecting it to be a fairytale or to look like the notebook, it's not going to, you're gonna be disappointed and you're gonna wanna give up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For. I, uh, also love what you said about love satisfying. I think there's a lot of people in our world and I've struggled with this personally, who walk around believing that my heart will never be satisfied. My heart will never be satisfied. And just hearing that authentic love can do that, especially God's love, but even, even within a marriage or between friends, all the different types of love, it can be satisfying.

Was there anything you wanted to add on that? About how like life giving love can be? Because I think a lot of people, they just see the destruction, they just see the dysfunction and they think. Yeah, this isn't worth it. Mm. Yeah, the word that just popped up in my mind was vulnerability in, in marriage and friendships in our relationship with our kids in even just in like business relationships and acquaintances.

And certainly with our, in our relationship with God, through Jesus, uh, if we are not vulnerable, then there's not a real relationship. I longed for my sister for years, I longed for her to, to just speak. What's true about like what she was going through when we would go out to coffee. And when we would just hang out, I, I was.

But I felt like the last time I had a real relationship with her and she, I mean, it was maybe middle school and then she just passed away last year because she was, she had an eating disorder and, and it was like, sort of like, I was lamenting that relationship for years and years and years. And then finally it was like, it was cut off and, and so it, so it's in a really like, even so love even between siblings.

I think if there's not vulnerability, vulnerability, and then going back to listening that, that there can't be that fullness. That you're want that, that I'm wanting. I think of my best friends. I think like my best friend from college, uh, Joey Gordon, and I think the reason why we're best friends is because I was very vulnerable with him about the deepest and darkest things in my life.

And he was vulnerable with me similarly, and we were able to walk with each other through those things. Mm-hmm . And I think, and that's why that relationship. I could, I could go months without talking to Joey, but we can pick up where we left off because we formed that bond of vulnerability early on. And we chose to, instead of past judgment on each other or say like, You're, you know, I don't, I don't really wanna hang out with you anymore if you've you've done that sort of thing.

We, we decided that, that there's grace there again, grace and forgiveness and, and love can cover that stuff. Like true love can cover over a multitude of. Those violations of, of goodness and, and purpose that, that we've done, that we, all of us have done. And, and it's sad. It's very satisfying. Love that. So good.

I'm so sorry about your sister. It's so hard. And, uh, I, yeah, I know the experience of like losing someone close to you and I think the. You know, going back and thinking, I wish we had this, I wish we had that. And the vulnerability being at the core of it makes so much sense. It, I agree. Like vulnerability has always made my relationships better and made me happier.

And I know Brene brown talks about vulnerability a ton, and she says, vulnerability is the antidote to shame. Hmm. Yeah. And so if, if you feel like, you know, you're just so broken and. Um, you know, that people would despise you. If you just open up to someone who is good, who will you can trust and who will listen to you without judging me?

Just like you said so well, tother, um, that is so freeing it's so freeing, especially after going through life, maybe hiding, um, your vices or hiding things that you're struggling with from your past or whatever it is. Mm-hmm, , it just, it is life giving. It is satisfying, even that in and of. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

I wanna find this quote. Um, but we should keep talking while I have searched for it. yeah, no, totally fine. Yeah. I, I had a question for you guys about just coping with pain in life. So it's obvious, right? It's human nature that we cope with the pain and the problems in our lives and unhealthy ways. That seems to be the default.

And for me, uh, one healthy way of coping though on the flip side has been listening to music. And I, you know, I, I've played a little bit of music, nowhere near the musician level, but that's been helpful too. Now I can't say I totally understand why it's so helpful, but I'm just curious if you guys had any thoughts on that.

Why do you think that music helps us deal with the messiness of life and the pain and the problems that kind of inevitably come our way? I think a lot of it has to do with just knowing that you're not alone and that other people have experienced something. Very similar. That your story while it is unique to you, it's not, it's not something that's so new or out there, like something, no one could ever understand.

There's this song by drew Holcomb called here we go. And there's a line that says music. It makes you feel good. Makes you feel understood. Like you're not alone, not a rolling stone, not the only one on the road. And I think that really is it for me. It's. Wow. Someone else totally gets this and, and they're okay.

you know? Yeah. Um, yeah, it's like a way to be alone, but not be alone. So that I, yeah, for me, music has always been very healing and helpful, and it also helps me experience my emotions when, you know, you wanna dive into that place, but you like just need a little help maybe, you know? Yeah. And suddenly you're crying in the bathtub like, oh, this feels so good.

Yeah. Jenny, you made me think of, you made me think of, um, just how helpful it is. Like there's har a lot of Harvard research on this, like Dr. Susan, David. Wrote an awesome book called emotional agility. And in it, she talks about how important it is to put your emotions into words. And it's actually like a disability when people can't recognize and express their emotions, which leads to frustrations and, and anger in a lot of cases.

So it's like so healthy and good for you to just express, put your feelings into words. And it seems like music, like you said, it does exactly that. So it makes sense why it's a hopeful. Yeah. Yeah. Tell her anything to add to that. Yeah. I don't have anything to add. I do want to kind of paraphrase what I was saying, what I wanted to find that quote that I wanted to find it basically.

So going back to the, the point of vulnerability, the quote was, was way better than I think this is gonna be, but it was basically like the church is comprised of murderers. Rapists pedophiles. People who have done the worst of the worst stuff, and yet they have tasted the love of God and they have received the forgiveness of God by the blood of Christ because of, of Jesus' blood.

And now they are the people in the earth who are going out and sharing. This is who I was. I still struggle with this by the way, but this is who he is, and this is what he's doing in me. And, and that's life right there. There is, there is so much life in not hiding from these, these terrible things that, uh, that, and I'm not saying all of us are, are murderers and, and rapists and pedophiles.

But I'm saying that at a heart, when it comes down to the heart, all of us are no better than any of the worst people we think of, uh, in the world. We're, we're right there with them. Um, Jesus said, if you've gotten angry with somebody and said, you fool, you've, you've committed murder in your heart. He said, if you've lost it after a woman, you've committed adultery.

So we're right there with them and, and we're no better. And so I think that that, that's what the church needs to be is, is a bunch. Not self righteous people, but people who are, are deeply in touch with how screwed up they really are and how beautiful God's love really is that he forgives them through Jesus.

Yeah, that just to, just to add that little part about vulnerability, so good. So, so beautiful. And I couldn't agree more just like as a church we need to yeah. Get better at being real. Like I grew up in a more traditional church and. It was just, it was very much so about, like, I don't know your exterior, which, you know, there's a point to that.

Sure. But yeah, it's just, we, we have to get to the heart and, and when we don't, it's just so damaging because we're just walking around, going through the motions and nothing's actually transforming, which is what you're getting at here. It's like real transformation can happen. Like if you feel broken, If you're addicted to something, if you're doing all these bad things in your life, like God can come into that and he can transform it.

He's the only one who can do that. He can take some really bad, broken, messy, ugly, and make it into something good. Beautiful. It's yes. Incredible. Yeah. And, and to that point, like, My, my whole faith was, was based, was primarily based on desire, uh, when I was 15 and my, one of my best friends died and I was forced to, to look into death and to look into my life and realize that my life had no purpose.

I was trying to fit in and get with girls. And really objectify girls back then was kind of. The tendency of, of the, my high school guy, culture and abuse substances and treat people unfairly. And so this is what, what I was, was in. And I, I knew that there wasn't life there, but it wasn't until my buddy died.

And I really had to start thinking about man, what, what if I die tomorrow? Like, would my. Be worth anything. And the answer was no, the like it, and it that's really what hit me. And then Jesus comes and he says, I have come, uh, that they may have life and have it in abundance. And that is for there's something about that verse that really got me.

And it still, it still gets me like I desire life in abundance. I don't want to live sort of aimlessly and. and come to the end of my life and be like, well, that, that was a waste, you know? And, and so the Lord kind of brought me to himself through that desire and still brings me to himself through that desire.

And then I have to, I have to back up from that and I have to, to ask myself, okay, why do I actually believe this? mm-hmm, like, I, something about this seems true, but is there, is there more than just desire for. For for, is there good reason to believe? And, and I think that's where apologetics comes in.

That's where, uh, a lot of, a lot of study can come in. It just, but, but going back to desire, man, I, I think that we, all of us desire, love, like true love. I think we all desire to be known and to know God. Um, I think we all desire. Like I mentioned earlier things to last forever. Um, good things to last forever.

We don't want bad things to last forever. And so, so like, what is the root of that? If, if you don't know, if you're listening to this, you don't know Jesus. I would dive deep into that. What is the root? And I, I think the root is that God created us for himself, that we have this. This whole, I think Augustine put it like we have this emptiness, this space in our hearts that that cannot be filled.

We try to fill it with so much stuff, but it cannot be filled with anything except God himself. So we were made to know God and to be known by God, going back to vulnerability, to be totally exposed and naked before him. And, and for God to say, I accept. I love you because of what my son Jesus did when he died on the cross.

I, I accept you. And we just have to trust that we just have to trust in that Jesus's death was for us and his resurrection meant that he, he wasn't confined to the grave. And I need that every day. I'm I'm speaking this maybe more for, for myself, cause I need to be reminded. Uh, every day. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's great.

You appreciate yourself and we all get to listen. It's awesome. no, I, I do that a lot on this show. I'm like, yeah, I really need to, to hear this, like probably should follow some of this advice for no, it's it's so true. And one of the things that's really brought me to tears at different points in my life.

It's just like, After my parents separated, just shattered my world and I got into pornography and all sorts of just unhealthy things and sexual sins and other stuff. And, uh, I just felt so empty. And I knew even as a boy, like I was 11, 12 years old at the time, I knew that I wanted to be happy and this stuff wasn't making me happy.

And then I met these friends who, who were Christians. And I was like, wait a. These people are actually happy. Like they have what I want, like, wow, what . So, so then I started to live what egg did and life changed for, for the better. It was amazing. And so thinking back though, um, at different points in my life and like, if I would've kept on that path of doing what I was doing, like my God, like where would I have been?

And it just made me realize that we all have such a capacity for. And it's kind of, it's kind of a dark and scary thing to think about, isn't it it's like we all can become Hitler. We all can become, you know, whoever we do. And so it's, it's so like, like you're saying, if you would've continued on that path, if I would've continued on that path.

Oh my gosh. Where, where would we have been? It's scary. Terrifying to think. And I think it's good for anyone who's tempted to be like prideful or self righteous, like, think about that in your. Yeah. Yeah. And unfortunately it does take a lot of guys going to jail, uh, and being broken down by, by that system to get to that place where they're like, wow, this, this is like, I really can make those decisions.

I really am not any better than Hitler. And that's. That's a hard thing. Uh, I think for our culture to accept, but I've seen the evil in my heart and, uh, I was addicted to porn from an early age. And if I had not been by God delivered from that speaking of porn, I like, I, I don't know, man. I, I might be, I might not be alive.

I , I don't know where I'd be. Uh, I might be in jail, like I said before. And I think the key to that again, is desire because I got to a place where I was so tired and so dissatisfied, um, with porn that, that I, I wanted something real and something of substance and God be began to, uh, to show me that that was himself, but also in showing me that he gave me this hatred of porn, like.

Porn is objective. It's making an object of a human being. It is making, uh, a product of a person and it's, it's totally. It's like going to the grocery store and, and getting food, getting food that is terrible for me and buying it over and over and over again, it's killing me. It's killing part of my, like my emotional health and my soul and what my body certainly.

And, but, but I keep, I kept doing it because it felt like that was the only place that I knew I could get a rush. Um, and it, I, I think I relate to. Drug addicts in that. Um, but God gave me a hatred of it and I feel like that's one of the only ways that, that, or one of the only things that really keeps me from it.

It's not that I'm not tempted by it today, but I know I know what it did to me. And I hate it now so much that it, uh, it's lost. Its it's lost so much of its appeal. Absolutely. It's it's it's shine. It's just not shiny anymore. Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's amazing how you can, yeah. Become so different and transform and.

The best way I've heard it put is that porn distorts your ability to love. Cuz like you said, it just teaches you to use another person. And if you want those beautiful things in life, you need to learn to love and it's not easy and yeah, there's so much we can say there, I wanna keep moving. And uh, my wife and I attended one of your virtual conferences or conferences, virtual concerts if you ever wanna do a conference then sweet.

You can as well. But uh, it was, it was amazing. And one of the things that hit me is that music is so life-giving. So it's kind of the other side of the coin that I, the question I asked this is just so life giving. And, uh, my advice to, to my audience here was that if your life feels dull, if it feels bland, add art into it, especially music, it can just bring so much beauty into the grayness of life.

Have you, how have you seen that play in your own life and in the lives of your fans? Man? I think for me, one of the most life giving things is going to a concert. Mm it's just the I'm always, I almost always leave inspired by the performer. Like I wanna write songs after I listen to this. Person's amazing songs and I feel known.

usually like when we go to a show, we have this experience together, or you might go with friends or something and you have this shared experience. I remember going, we saw Mumford and sons back when, like way before they were so huge that you couldn't get tickets. Like it was 2009 or something. Wow. And we saw them at this awesome venue in Nashville.

It's like 1500 people maybe. and I just remember, it felt like everyone, there was a family, like there were certain points of the night where, you know, everyone's cheering over a line and I'm crying and you know, we're standing together. And I just remember thinking, I feel like I'm part of something greater than myself, which is beautiful.

And I'm getting like how, what a privilege to experience something. So. So beautiful. I mean, amazing. Gorgeous. What a privilege and then to be with you. I, I think, yeah, those, those experiences always. Add to the add to the beauty, I guess. And it's, it's almost beyond words, isn't it? Jenny? It's like, mm-hmm, , it's hard to explain.

It's hard to put it into words. And so you actually experience it. Yeah. And me, I feel like music just does that and like Tyler's, um, dad is a, is a choir or was a choir director at like a high school, middle school for years, like 30 years or something. And then when everything went virtual, He's supposed to do choir virtually, right?

Well, that just doesn't work because it's, you're part of like anything that you do, like a sport or being in a choir, like part of what makes it so magical is that you're with another person, like singing in a choir is about singing together and creating something. And you can't experience that on your.

What do you have to say? Yeah. Music is inspirational. Live, live music, especially for me. I think I, I have a variety of, of sources that I can list, like books, sermons, conversations I've had with family with strangers friends, but there's something about live music, even like from a musical perspective. Wow.

I didn't know that core progression could kind of tug at my heart the way that that did like seeing something done really well and lyric like lyrics tied together in a way that I I've never thought. Yeah. It's it's just to revisit what Jenny already said. It's it's very inspir. Couldn't agree more with you guys.

Uh, this next one's kind of hard to explain, but, uh, people who come from broken homes, young people who come from broken families tend to value, uh, security, feeling safe more than maybe most people. And the, the basic reason for that, that we've learned is that our families felt so unsafe so insecure that we just wanna feel safe almost at any cost.

Now, the problem with that is that we might not take good. Risks, especially when it comes to relationships, careers, whatever. Now you guys, you've taken a lot of risks to get where you are today. Uh, it's not easy it's for anyone listening to us. No, it's not easy to become successful artists. And so I'm just curious, what has that journey been like for you guys?

And what advice would you give to someone who's maybe terrified of taking a risk that could lead to something good, but they're just, they would rather play it safe. Hmm. I kind of feel like. I don't know, some of it hasn't felt so risky. like, yeah, like to us, it hasn't felt as risky as maybe it, it seemed.

And I, I think part of that was like when we started making music and when we decided. We're gonna jump into this and make this our full-time gig. And if it doesn't work out, that's okay, but we're gonna give it a shot. We were young. We didn't have a lot of responsibilities and, um, we didn't have like career type jobs.

Like I was working at a gift shop entirely was working at Starbucks. So it didn't feel like we were giving something up. However, I also think that if we hadn't done. If we hadn't taken the risk, I think we would've always kind of wondered if like what it would've been like to give it a shot. Mm-hmm I, I feel like I can't speak to maybe collectively we can't speak to this idea of risk in terms of career.

Because again, I was working at Starbucks. Jenny was working at a gift store. I think our monthly expenses. We're like, if we could make more than $1,500 a month, we could cover everything. And so, so we, we approached touring like, all right, we just have to make 1500 bucks in one month and then we'll be good.

And so I think if we had to give up like a, a more stable job, uh, or, or, or maybe even just a job that we. We really loved. Cause not, I don't think we loved Starbucks and we like, I enjoyed Starbucks, but I didn't like, feel like it was my, my calling. Yeah. I was just thinking though, however, like you had a sales job lined up for after college that we said no to, because the thought was, if I take this full time job, we won't have time for music.

Absolutely. And so it was our way of saying, without saying. You know, music is, is this important to us? So yeah, someone who's, who would be afraid of taking the risk. I mean, that makes so much sense to me, the, the fear there, um, the trepidation, but yeah, I really think if we hadn't done it, we would wonder, and certainly things, you know, things being.

Not as stable for us or feeling a little crazier, trying like, you know, we have four kids now and music is really strange to do with that many kids, like at the level that we do it, which isn't. You say successful, but like success is so relative. It is relative. You're successful to me. Okay. For the difference again, we pay the bills.

Yes, yes we can. And that's about it, you know, like that's where we're at. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, yeah, we have more than enough, but I don't know. I think Tyler's like when Tyler mentioned that he's a seven he's, like, which is like the risk taker type of personality. Okay. Yep. He's just always been. Yeah, let's just do it.

Let's let's go for. And I was more of the, I don't know, this might not be a good idea. I mean, that's how pretty much all it's our whole life, all of our bases came that way. We're like, what do you think of one more? Sure. , we're kind of impulsive people. Like what do you think about moving like next month?

Sure. That's fine. Yeah. Whatever. What should we buy this sprinter van? Yeah, actually I already bought it.

Yeah. Tyler did buy a sprinter van without telling me, yeah. Oh, I know. Remember walking out this old, like really dumpy van and I'm looking at it and I was just. I can't believe you bought this. Yeah. I can't believe you bought this, but it, it was fine. Couldn't really undo it at that point. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I think for me, it's just like having Tyler kind of driving the, the bus I'm I feel like I'm along for the ride.

And, um, I think I've just also seen that things, they always work out one way or another. I don't know if that's there was any sort of advice in there, you know, I, I think there's, I think there's more in there than you realize one don't buy a van without telling your wife one. Yes, definitely. That, and then also you guys were just, you were willing to fail and that's, I think what terrifies a lot of people it's like, you knew that one possibility to going down this road was that you wouldn't make it.

Yeah. And, and you were okay with that. And that's huge. Like even just accepting that fact, I think is so big. Another thing you said is. What if we don't do it, that's what a lot of people don't consider. They only think about, well, what if I do it? And I lose everything well, what if you don't and you live a life of regret and you go to your grave with the song still inside of you, like yeah.

Throw said. It is terrifying. It is yeah. To, to consider that. And so I think that can be motivating as well. And then another thing you said is just like taking the little steps. That's another lesson in what you, you just explained is like take the little steps in the right direction. You don't need to maybe take that huge leap right.

At first. I mean, sometimes in life you have to take those leaps, but I think if you take those steps, you're gonna be mitigating risk and avoiding maybe some potential huge failure, um, by just doing little bits at a. Yeah, that was awesome that you just said that was all from you guys. Perfect. Very well.

Uh, great summary. You could have just said that cliffs notes version. Love that. No, that, that's what I just learned from you guys. So thank you. Um, in, in closing out, how can people listen to your music, buy your music 10 year concerts? How can they do all that? Yeah, I mean, we're on all of the streaming things like Spotify.

Apple music and all of that stuff, right? Yeah. And then if you really wanna support us, uh, we we're on this thing called Patreon and, uh, for a dollar or, or whatever you wanna give us per month, um, we give you exclusive songs, new songs every month and, uh, exclusive content. Behind the scenes stuff. Um, so that if you, yeah, if you really wanna support us in like a very tangible way, that's, that's a good way to do it, but you could just go on Spotify and create a playlist, too.

Join our mailing list. You can get a free record, a free exclusive record. If you go to Jenny and tyler.com/free we're on Instagram and Facebook. We're not great with the social media. I think we're just like, Too old to keep up with all of the new things that people do. I'm like, what is that? We, we prioritize Instagram and, and Facebook and, and then Twitter's kind of the third one, but Snapchat.

And I'm like, I don't know what that is. I dunno how to use this. Yeah. But, and then we are starting to book. We're hoping to get back into playing some shows and then we just have online stuff that we do too about once a month. So, yeah. Yeah. And that's just, uh, like the tickets to, if you want to come to this show in Maine, in September it's and these online shows, they're just pay what you can.

So again, just like. A dollar or more. We don't want there to be a hindrance from money. We, if you wanna come, we want there to be some kind of transaction so that you care about it a little bit. Uh, cuz we found that free events, people just don't care very much about, but when people give even just a dollar or $5, they seem to care about it.

And, and so that's, that's why we do the pay. What you can thing. Love it. And your website is Jenny and Tyler dot. Yes. Awesome. And you guys, you can find everything that they just mentioned there, and we'll make sure to link in the show notes to, uh, their music, to their Patreon account. If you wanna support them even a little bit goes a long way, guys.

Thank you so much for your music. It's so inspiring. It's so beautiful. Thank you for the example that you've, um, given in, in your marriage. It's more inspiring than maybe you'll ever know. So I really appreciate everything you've done. And for, for being here and spending time with me today. Thank you so much.

This was awesome. Such a pleasure, Joey. Thank you, man.

You can listen to Jenny and Tyler's music, wherever you listen to music or on YouTube even. And if you wanna support them, like they mentioned, you can do that on Patreon for even a dollar or a few dollars a month. And you can just go to patreon.com/jenny. And Tyler patreon.com/jenny and Tyler. And I know it goes a long way for artists.

Who've had so many concerts canceled because of COVID. So if you can help them out, go ahead and do that. And I especially recommend listening to their song. As long as our hearts are beating. As long as our hearts are beating, it's such a beautiful song about love and about marriage. And I won't sing it for you, but here are some of the lyrics.

Tyler sings this part, he says my bride, my bride, I can hardly hold myself. Together this day, this night, I see you as you are, and I never wanna leave. So beautiful again, that that song is as long as our hearts are beating, definitely recommend listening to that. And all those links are in the show notes.

A question for you guys to kind of wrestle with, think about who in your life has helped to convince you that love and marriage can last. Maybe, no one, maybe you haven't had anyone do that, but maybe you have, my advice is either find someone who has a beautiful marriage that you wanna emulate. You wanna repeat, or if you know someone like that build a better relationship with them.

It's so helpful in overcoming your fears about love and marriage to see a real. Living example of how good love and marriage can be. And this has been so helpful for me. So many people that we've worked with at restored have said the same, uh, in the future, we wanna even come out with some sort of a program to help you find a couple like that.

If you don't know them more on that in the future, but this is so helpful. So go ahead, find that couple or reengage with a couple that you know, who just has a really beautiful marriage that inspires you and can teach you how to build love. That lasts again, stay tuned for more info on how to get our new book for special offers, you can join our email list@restoredministry.com.

Again, restored ministry.com. Ministry is just singular. You can follow us on social, especially on Instagram at restored help. Again at restored help is our handle and just keep listening to this podcast. We'll be. Giving you more info on how you can get the book. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 51.

Thank you so much for listening. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce separation, share this podcast with them. We're really confident that it can help them too. Always. Remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#050: Why Didn’t You Choose Me? | Holli Lepley

For 40 years, Holli searched for help to heal from the trauma of her parents’ divorce, including 30 years of counseling. But nothing worked. She had all but lost hope when she found Restored. She claims this podcast has been more healing than 30 years of counseling.

Having struggled with depression, anxiety, and suicidal thoughts, she also shared how Restored has “literally saved my life.” If you’ve wondered how Restored can help you or someone you love or lead, this episode is for you. In it, we discuss:

• How her parents’ divorce came out of the blue, which research suggests may be most damaging

• How her dad’s quick remarriage hurt her as much or almost more than the divorce itself

• The sense of loss she felt when she stopped seeing her siblings due to the divorce

Plus, two huge announcements at the start of the show!

Has Restored helped you? Let us know how here.

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Episode 8: The Hardest Part of My Life | Miranda Rodriguez

• Dear Divorce

• Contact Holli

  • dznylandfan@gmail.com

  • Instagram

  • Facebook

• Research

  • Low conflict divorces may be more damaging

  • 1/3 high conflict divorces, 2/3 low conflict divorces

  • Loneliness and Life Satisfaction in Adolescents with Divorced and Non-Divorced Parents

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As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

My guest today, struggled for so long to find anyone even among so-called experts who could simply understand how devastating it was for her to experience her parents' divorce and the breakdown of her family. As a 10 year old girl, she did search for help, but she struggled to find it for over 40 years.

And after almost 30 years of counseling, 30 years, she had all but lost hope. When she found restored, she told me that restored in this podcast specifically have been more effective in helping her than 30 years of counseling. And she said, she's just never found anyone saying what we're saying, what our guests have said and what our content has said.

And she really wishes that she would've had this 40 years ago when she was a 10 year old girl and having struggled in her life with suicidal thoughts. She shares how this podcast has literally saved her. So amazing. So humbling, Holly. I know you're listening right now. We're just so glad to be a part of your story for this opportunity to serve you and be a help tact as a guide along your journey.

And you were right. All along. What you went through was traumatic. What you went through was devastating. You deserve your pain to be validated. You deserve for someone to recognize the hurt you've endured so you can heal and finally move past all of this. And if you listening right now, if you're like Holly, if you feel like nothing has worked help you heal from the trauma you've experienced in your family, because of your parents' divorce separation, you're in the right place.

Stick with us. We're here to help you. And if you're someone who's asked the question, maybe you've heard about resort, or maybe you're finding us for the first time. If you've you ask the question is restored actually helping people. And if so, how it's a fair question. Keep listening. You're gonna find out.

It's a very fair question. And I know we have a fair share of skeptics. People who think like, eh, maybe they're not doing such good work. We even have some haters. For example, one woman emailed me. I kid you not, this is not a joke. One woman emailed me. And she said that. She said, please, in no way, go to sleep at night thinking you have helped anyone and are doing a service when it comes down to it.

Again, not a joke. That's a direct quote. And Holly, in this episode shares how effective this podcast and this ministry has been to help her. And it can help you too, as someone who comes from a broken family. And I don't say all this to brag, I just say this to show you that. We can help you and we want to help you.

And by listening what you're gonna get out of this episode, we talk about how her parents' divorce came totally outta the blue, which research actually suggests maybe the most damaging type of divorce. We also speak about the pain. She felt watching her dad show up at the house to go through her mom's things.

While her mom was gone. We hit on how her dad's quick remarriage following the divorce, hurt her as much. And maybe even more than the divorce itself, she touches on the sense of loss. She felt too, when she stopped seeing her siblings due to the divorce. In other words, not only did she lose her dad in, in a way, both of her parents, uh, she also lost her siblings too.

And she shares kind of an interesting experience where she went to this divorce support group, thinking it would be for her. But it wasn't for children of divorce. It was just for, uh, married couples or married people, I should say, who wanted to get a divorce. And so she quickly realized when she was at this meeting, that it wasn't for her.

And there was just no mention of the kids at all. Um, but she did stick it out and she tells that story. And then we also talk about other struggles that she's dealt with. Like thinking that her husband who's been so good to her, will eventually leave her and dealing with the silence from her family, from her parents, especially for the past 40 years.

No one talked about this very real and painful problem that she's dealt with that has been in the family. And finally, just her wrestling with the question. Why wasn't I worth it for you guys? To work it out. Some just cuts straight to the heart. And also in addition to all that, we've two big announcements from us at restored.

We'll get into those right away. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host joy. Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 52 big announcements. Like I said, first off my wife and I have welcomed our daughter into the world.

Her name is Lucy. She's the best. She's beautiful. Uh, her daddy's heart already belongs to her. We are obsessed. And if you wanna see some photos of her, just follow us on Instagram at restored help. Again, that's at restored help and you can see some pictures of Lucy on. I. Next we've written. Our first publication will be coming out in September of this year.

It's a practical guide to really help you successfully navigate the pain and the problems from your parents' divorce or separation. And it's in a question and answer format. It's a short format, so it's a quick read, but it really gives you practical guidance on different questions and different situations, different challenges that people like us face such as.

Everyone acts like my parents' divorce. Isn't a big deal. Is it wrong for me to feel hurt by it? What can I do to cure my loneliness? How can I better deal with my anxiety? What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life events? How do I overcome my fear of love, relationships and intimacy? I, I feel broken.

Like something is wrong with me. How can I heal and feel whole again? And why does God let bad things happen? Like my parents divorce, there's over 30 questions in this booklet for you again, to offer really practical guidance so that you can successfully navigate these really challenging things that really no one offers us any guidance on.

And so what we're trying to do is really create what we wish we would've had years ago and we've spent months doing it. We're so excited to release this to, to give this to you guys, to offer. To you. And when I say booklet, what I mean again is a, a quick read. It's not a brochure, not a pamphlet, but it's really a quick read.

It'll be gosh, 150 pages, uh, or more. And that will come up in, in September. Like I said, I'm just teasing it right now, but we'll have more info to come. We'll have info on our website. And if you wanna learn more about the booklet and about some of the special pre-order offers that we'll be, uh, offering before the launch of the book, just subscribe to our email list, go to restored ministry.com again, restored ministry.com.

Ministry is just. Singular and just scroll to the bottom of the page. You'll see a form. You can put your name in, put your email, answer a quick question, and then you'll be on our email list. And whenever the book goes live, you'll hear about it. And we'll give you some special offers, uh, through that email list as well.

Uh, you can sign up there on our homepage on the website, or if you wanna sign up at, uh, the show notes page ever, sword ministry.com/fifty, the form's on there too. We wanna make it easy for you guys to sign up for email list so you can get those special offers again. So excited to share this with you.

We've been working hard on this. We want it to be topnotch for you all, and I'm excited to hear your feedback. So, so stay tuned in the next podcast episode, we'll be talking more about it. We're gonna give you a sneak peek of some of the content, and I give you an opportunity to get some of it for free as well.

And it'll be very reasonably priced. We wanna get it out to as many people as we can, especially young people, teenagers, and young adults who really need this guidance. Honestly, this is what I wish. I would've had as a young person, just kind of a, a manual playbook on how to deal with those unique challenges that people like us face.

So keep an eye out for that. My guest today is Holly lly. She has been a child of divorce for 40 years. And then as the youngest of five children, she was only 10 years old when her parents divorced. The divorce really defined her life. Not only as a child, but as a grown woman too, which you'll hear her talk about in the interview and following the divorce.

She suffered from depression and anxiety for 40 years. And she spent countless years in counseling trying to overcome being a, a child of divorce going through this trauma. And she says that nothing worked until I found ReSTOR. Finally, people who understood how I felt and gave this. A voice at 50 years old, I'm learning.

It's not too late to find peace within the pain. Thanks to ReSTOR. So beautiful and so humbling, honestly. And she, she is married. Holly is married to an incredible patient man. She says, uh, they'll, they'll celebrate 31 years in November this year. So beautiful. They've three, uh, children together and a daughter-in-law and the ages range from 27 to 17.

So pretty young family and Holly, uh, promised herself that her children would never have to say that they were children of divorce. She didn't wanna repeat what she experienced in her family. And she's kept that promise. And she's very proud of that. She recently retired from the airline industry and she currently works for the state of Utah.

She and her husband are planning to move to Florida in a few years when they retire and all of her children will be joining them. Beautiful and amazing. So without waiting any longer, here's my conversation with my friend, Holly,

Holly, welcome to the show. It's great to have you. Oh, thank you, Joey. So much for having me. I've been looking forward to this interview and I, I'm excited to hear your story, so let's go right to it. Take us back in time. Take us to the day when that 10 year old you, uh, learned that your parents were separating and divorcing, um, what happened?

How did you react to it? Yeah, absolutely. This is actually one of the very few days that I have any memory of. Um, I actually don't remember a whole lot of childhood, to be honest with you. I think that's more of a chosen way that I've dealt with a lot of this, but mm-hmm , this is of course one day that I just remember everything about that hour or so of yeah, just my parents sitting myself down with sister.

And just kind of my dad, I remember him saying that he was gonna be moving out and leaving, and I just remember not understanding any of it. Mm-hmm because growing up to that point, I don't remember a, you know, any fighting, any confliction, things like that. I don't remember any of seeing that mm-hmm so I was very much taken aback to what was going on.

Of course, I remember crying and, and trying to understand. but at 10 years old, it was just not something that I could comprehend without any forewarning. Mm-hmm , you know, my, my parents just didn't, I don't know if they chose not to fight in front of us or just to kind of keep us out of it. So it just came out of nowhere.

Mm-hmm really, it was totally something I wasn't. Expecting at all. So, um, I don't know if you want me to go into a little backstory of before getting there sure. To that would be great. That point. I mean, only because it just, it feels almost like I had two lifetimes. Mm. One prior to this and, and then one after the one prior to was, you know, of course my childhood home that I remember, um, I'm the youngest of five children.

I believe two of my siblings were at this point, moved out and married and there was only a couple of us left. And I remember, you know, that time being very happy, very, you know, my mom was home full time, great memories of the neighborhood, the whole thing. And then all of a sudden we just had to leave and we had to move to this different house and never understood why.

Of course, I, I know now why, but. Back then I never knew. And that was really traumatic for me to leave. And then we got settled into this new house and then I learned he would be leaving. Hmm. So it was kind of like getting hit by a brick wall really? yeah. You know, that I never saw coming at all. So it was really hard to deal with that.

And I know you and I have talked that I grew up, um, as a member of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints. Mm-hmm , which most people know, know us as Mormons and learn from a young, young age, families are forever. That's all we ever learned. Families are forever. You know, this is, this is the plan.

And then to be hit by. Well, now dad's moving out and we're getting divorced was just, I, I can't even explain what that felt like, cuz I didn't understand. I don't, you know, how does that happen? Mm-hmm even at this age, I'm not sure. I'm really great at explaining that, but that was really difficult to be at that age.

And just be told. Okay, he's leaving. And then he, he left that night. Oh, wow. And that was it. Hmm. And then the new life started. It was, it was really, um, hard. I mean, I appreciate probably that. I, I didn't see the fighting going on. However, there's bad sides to that as well. You don't see the conflict, you never learn how to resolve it, which I never saw those things.

And in the era that I grew up, which would've been, you know, the seventies, eighties, You, you didn't talk about those things. Our parents didn't talk about those things. So it was something that was never discussed, never sat us all down and said, here's what's going on. Uh, we're not getting along or anything.

And so even post, uh, divorce, it still was never talked about. So I never understood or came from any understanding as to why that all happened. All of a sudden, I just knew that dad was gone and he still lived close by, but. It was like two different worlds that I didn't know how to internalize and we never talked about it.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah, no, that, that's such a heavy thing to carry with you. And not only did the foundation of your family fall apart, but like you said, this belief that you had that families are forever, which is really how it should be. That was shattered too. Cuz mm-hmm this reality in your life seemed to contradict that belief.

And so I'm sure it made you. Everything. And I remember that was certainly the, the case for me. And I remember, uh, yeah, I was 11 years old. So just a year older than you were when my parents separated. And I remember we were with a family friend or maybe a relative. I can't remember that portion of it, but I remember driving by our house and seeing like police cars there.

Um, nothing like. Violent or anything like that had happened. But I think there was a just conflict between my parents, that my mom had chosen to get the police involved. Yeah. And so immediately that was like the first exposure. I think that I had to the fact that something was happening, it came totally out of the blue, just like you said.

And so then I, I mean, a million question marks went up in my head, like what is going on at our house. And then later was when my mom sat us down and broke the news that, uh, dad will no longer be living with us. In fact, he was already gone and they were gonna get divorced. So totally relate to you. And there's research that actually says, you probably know this already, but there's research that says that, uh, those divorces that are low conflict, especially the ones that come out of the blue can actually be more damaging for people like us because, um, it's totally unexpected.

It's totally unexpected. Mm-hmm and things appear to be fine. So then we go through life thinking, well, what isn't gonna fall apart or what. Won't fall apart at a moment's notice. And so we kind of have to watch our back constantly thinking that, well, there's a disaster on every corner. Sure. And, and I think it's so important to know that as a child, I didn't learn to deal with those conflicts and that open communication was just not a thing.

You know, we're just not gonna talk about it. Yeah. And unfortunately, in my situation, the let's not talk about it has lasted for 40 years. Hmm. And it's only been recently that I've started asking my mom some questions about then and reasons as to why, and my adult self can understand. And I think of myself like how, I don't know how I would've explained that to my children, but asking questions.

Now I understand a little bit more each time I, I talk a little bit, but it's been 40 years of no discussion, which, you know, is really hard because I went from having this little family of the seven of us, um, you know, going to church every Sunday, doing everything that we're supposed to be doing to just, it felt like a, you know, like a, like a dam just breaking and that water just opening up and destroying everything.

Even, even my parents, it changed who they were. And I don't know if maybe that's just cuz it, let them maybe hurt their true colors. Come out a little bit. I mean, I certainly don't wanna speak for. and this is in no way judgemental to them, but sure. Um, you know, things changed very quickly in our house.

Although of a sudden my dad would start just showing up at my house and he would be going through my mom's things. Mm-hmm um, when just the kids were there, mm-hmm, like, just when I was there, I, I didn't know how to deal with that. I knew it was wrong. I knew something. This was not right to have him in here going through her things.

But again, we don't talk about it. Thankfully there, there really was only one time at the, it was a pretty pivotal time that he had shown up. And I, I guess he wanted to talk with her. Ended up locking her in the bathroom and she ended up putting her hand through the window, trying to get out. Mm. I was home and I, again, that's another thing that I remember every moment of happening.

Mm-hmm , mm-hmm I remember being outside the door, yelling and crying and, and then her coming out and she had up stitches all up and down her hand, you know, it's very traumatic. Mm-hmm to see that. And as a 10 year old, who, I just don't even know where it came from. These are two people. I, I don't know all of a sudden these aren't the same two people who've been raising me for the past 10 years.

So it was very, very confusing. Yeah. And then my, my dad remarried very quickly, which was probably almost. More difficult, if not as difficult as the divorce itself. Sure. That was just a huge, huge part of what defined the rest of my life. And, and that's what it did. It defined, you know, 40 years of everything I did every single day mm-hmm , you know, so everyone who you talk to, I commands so much for having that strength to speak up because having gone through this now, here's my dad who has chosen another family.

Yeah. You know, how do, how do you deal with that? I, I still don't know how you deal with that and it's yeah, it's constant. He just remarried so fast that I just knew every time he made that choice. Choosing the other family, it took all of my self worth away that I wasn't more important than they were.

Right. Cuz he was choosing them over you. Yes mm-hmm and, and all the time mm-hmm and unfortunately, you know, that's continued all through my life, but that was really a pivotal pivotal thing for me. Was that being remarried so quickly. I, as a child, I don't know, you know, I'm barely getting over if they're all they're not married anymore, but.

Yet he's marrying someone else. That was really hard. Yeah. It just kind of snowballed from there. You know, mm-hmm because everything I knew was gone, I mean, I, I no longer had a family. My siblings, unfortunately, being older than I was chose sides. Um, you know, with one parent or another, for whatever reason, I don't again have any judgment on them.

And cuz their experience was very different than mine. Mm-hmm I, I can't have any judgment on what they did, but all of a sudden they were all just gone. So I had no family left my mom now all of a sudden had to go back to the workforce because we were just left. So I was used to being home. You know, with mom home.

And she would be there every day when I got home from school and dinner was always made. And you know, that picture perfect kind of life that you think of. Yeah. Obviously I didn't know as a child, that that's really not the way it was, but sure. In my eyes, that's how it was now of a sudden she had to go back to work.

Um, I became a latchkey kid now who would have to come home alone every day. Didn't know when she'd be able to come home. So everything fell apart. Um, I stopped seeing siblings cuz they kind of would chose my dad's side. So the older siblings kind of went with him. The younger two of us kind of went with my mom.

So that just split everything completely up. We had to move again because we could no longer afford to live where we were. So we had to move into a very small little, two bedroom. I had to share a room with my mom kind of a thing just to make ends meet. And that was really hard. I had to change schools, which all of a sudden I'm going to a school that really wasn't the safest school.

Um, so I started seeing things. In my, what we like to call the Utah bubble that we live in. I had some things I had never witnessed before and now sudden I'm seeing this kind of different stuff and that was, it just felt all confusing. Yeah. How is someone that young supposed to cope with all of this?

It's it's impossible. Mm-hmm with, unless, you know, maybe you have like incredible support. Maybe you can get through it, but it's all, it's all about surviving it. It's it's just not supposed to be this way. It's so damaging. And it always baffles me how people will say, well, well, children are resilient.

They'll be fine. Mm it's. You know, the divorce isn't that big of a deal. Yeah. But then we just constantly hear stories from people like you. Most of us, most people like us are not willing to even talk about this because we're afraid of hurting our parents. Mm-hmm we, we wanna protect them. We love. And so yes, when you really look into it though, and that's what this entire podcast has been about, um, it is really, really damaging.

And like you said before, like how is a 10 year old supposed to wrap their head around this? And, and then in the years that followed, of course, how are you supposed to deal with all these changes and the, the additional trauma that's happening, uh, in your life? It is a lot mm-hmm I mean, thank. We're not doomed to stay there, but it, it is a ton when you're going through it.

Well, and, and unfortunately, I mean, I, I did get stuck there right in my brain for 40 years have been stuck there. Hmm. When I say that, that defined me, it definitely 100% defined, most everything I've done to be 50 years old and still haven't been able to deal with this is just crazy to then hear other people say children, not resilient.

You know, like, no, absolutely. No. They're, they're not always resilient. And if they go through something like this and I've been taught for so long, we just don't talk about it. That that has to go somewhere. The pain had to go somewhere. And so that frustrates me when I hear the same thing that kids, kids will handle it, they can make those changes.

And, um, you know, I don't always agree with that. And that's, that's, it is kind of a hard thing too, to be an adult child of divorces that a lot of people really just don't agree with position on things like that. And so you're constantly throughout your adult life, at least the experiences I've had been made to feel that you're wrong.

Like I'm wrong. I shouldn't feel that way. I should just get over it. Yeah, I should have just let it go. And I get that a lot from adult to adult telling me that as well. Mm-hmm , you know, I, I, this is just a little funny side note is I at one time, I think I was some. 40 35 maybe and found a group of people who needed help with going through divorce.

And the way I read the description was it would be something helpful to me. Mm-hmm so I went to this a group and it was probably 10, 12 people. Well come to find out it was a group of married people going, trying to figure out divorce. And I'm the only person in this group of people who is a child of divorce.

Oh man. Awkward. Right. Yeah. And so the question is you stay, do you go, where do you do? And I thought, well, maybe I could benefit a little from hearing where they're coming from. Sure. Unfortunately, all it did was make me more frustrated because it was just all about them and the angers they had between each other.

Mm-hmm and not even thinking about the kids. Wow. Yeah, it was a, it, I stuck it out for the six weeks or whatever. And, um, I, I was forthcoming and saying, look, I'm, I'm not divorced. I'm am a child of a divorce though. Um, so I, maybe I have something that will help you. I don't know, but it was very different to sit and listen to that side of it as well.

So I try not to be judgemental people going through that, or, you know, not every case is the same, but sure. I would hope that for a few minutes that people could hear our side too. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, there certainly are cases where it's unavoidable because maybe there's violence or there's drugs or there's of course, stuff like that.

But most cases aren't like that. And of course, statistically. You know, holds up the estimates out there that maybe 30% of divorces are like that, where there's like violence or abuse, danger, things like that. And then 70% are just where the most common reason for divorce is irreconcilable differences.

That's the most common quoted reason for divorce. And so it's, so this fascinating that in that force support group, I guess we'd call it. Yeah. There's no mention of the kids, which is very, um, indicative of, of kind of how we approach this as a culture overall. It's like the parents, you know, obviously there's issues, I'm not making light of that.

There's some real problems that need to be solved and you know, I'm not passing judgment on everyone. Who's struggling cuz that happens so often in marriage. Of course. Um, but, but yeah, just the complete, I guess, forgetfulness of the kids, it's really sad. Yeah. Yeah. And I, a big, huge part of that for me was one I always questioned why wasn't I worth it?

Mm. Why wasn't I worth it for you guys to work it out? What was so bad that. I wasn't worth the trouble to fix this. And that is something that has stuck with me for my entire life. And I've struggled a lot with insecurity and feeling like I'm just not, I'm not worth it, you know? And I know I've discussed with you.

I, I went into depression. Which I've suffered with for a long time. Mm-hmm and that included suicidal thoughts, which, you know, my family has no idea. I went through that still to this day. They don't know that I suffered with that. Wow. Because it's not comfortable to talk about with somebody who doesn't understand and you know, I'm coming from a place where neither of my parents were, or excuse me, their parents were not divorced.

Mm-hmm your grandparents. Okay. My grandparents were all married till they passed away. Even my husband, his parents, same thing. So none of them understood what that felt like. So it was very difficult for me to understand why wasn't they enough to keep the family together, you know? and that's something I've dealt with through my marriage, with everything.

And I still, to this day, I don't have a relationship with my dad at this point. Um, because I've spent, you know, 40 years dealing with not feeling or wanting the question answered as to why didn't you choose me? Because that's really how I feel is you, you are not choosing me in everything that you're doing.

Whereas my mom, she stayed with us. She was there for us. She financially put herself out there for us. She didn't remarry till after I got married and said that she wouldn't. Because we were more important. Wow. So it's kind of funny that I feel not so much that way with my mom, but a hundred percent with my dad as to why don't you choose me?

You know, even when I got married, even a situation that had to do with my own wedding, where there was an issue with me not wanting his wife on my wedding invitations, because she's not my mom mm-hmm and that's honestly how I felt like I want, my mom deserves 100% to be on there. And my dad, those are my parents.

Mm-hmm and yet my invitations showed up printed with her on there. Mm. So it's, it's just been, I have story after story, after story of that, of not, you're not choosing me and I don't get that. So especially when I had kids, it even brings it up more. Mm-hmm , that's kind of where my core belief of myself comes from.

is why wasn't I enough? Yeah. And that's such a great question. And it's such a debilitating question because we might never receive the full answer for that, which is yeah. Just so hard. And I'm so sorry for everything you've been through it. Every thing you're talking about, I'm like, yep, yep, yep. Yep.

Mm-hmm I just totally relate to what you're saying. Even down to some of the details, like, you know, your dad showing up to go through your mom's things when she wasn't around that, that happened with my family too. So, so many of the things that you said and just how defining this has been like, even, even as a young teenager, uh, just a few years removed from the separation.

I just knew I'm like, that thing was so pivotable for me. mm-hmm and yet, for some reason, no one was talking about it, which is baffling. Like yeah. You know, just like you there's so much silence around this problem. And, uh, yeah, so man, it just breaks my heart that you've had to struggle like this for 40 years.

Yeah. And there's been just no one there to give you the help that you needed. It shouldn't be this way. It just shouldn't be this way. No, it shouldn't. And you know, um, it's not because I didn't look for help because I did. I mean, like I told you, I suffer from depression. I, I reached out, I've gone to counseling for 30 years almost, um, with counselors trying to help me and none of them got it.

And I've had more than one counselor. I've had several and you know, and I would always try to make sure I researched and kind of went with who I felt would be comfortable with my situation, my beliefs, the whole thing. Sure. And not to say that they weren't great counselors that had nothing to do with it.

And maybe there were things that they just couldn't say, but in all of those years of counseling, I have never been affected the way I was listening to your podcast. Hmm. Because for the first time in ever, and I literally can say ever there was somebody else who was saying what I had felt and understood that, and those counselors never, they couldn't do that.

They could say, oh yes, you have depression. Um, you're sad. You're, you know, you need to reconcile things. They'd give me books to read nothing helped because I never heard the words spoken. Like you guys have spoken them. To where I can. I almost just wanna jump up and be like, yes. Finally, somebody understands what it feels like to live through this and know how painful it is.

It's I'm not, I'm not kidding with that. That's not even an over exaggeration of the 30 years I've had the counseling has not helped me as much as this has wow. Ever because, and I, I think it's just because it's, nobody has understood. Whereas you, when I know there's other people hurting the same way I am, it's just feels more like, okay, you get it.

Mm-hmm, a lot of it too. Maybe has to do with trust. Like I trust how you feel because you've lived it. Mm. Yeah. I've had a lot of problems with trust in my lifetime and getting close to people. Um, because you know, they're gonna leave mm-hmm right. I mean, yeah, if you let yourself get close to someone, they're just gonna walk away from you cuz that's what happens.

And so I never let people close mm-hmm um, I always would just kind of keep them away from me enough, but it, it almost feels like you're an outsider looking in mm-hmm it almost feels like an out of body experience all the time where I'm an outsider looking into other people going, wow, that must feel great to have that family.

Right. But I'm so removed from it that I can never let myself be part of that. Wow. Like I don't honestly, at my age I have a hard time really understanding how people have such close friends. Mm-hmm , it's such an odd thing to me to have people that you can just fill a hundred percent of yourself with.

Because I've never had that. Totally. So to hear you guys speak about it is just like this light bulb moment for me. And I think I've told you this, but I still deal with those kind of thoughts, the bad thoughts when things happen. I go straight to that dark place. I think anybody who's been there understands, oh yeah.

That I go from good to, okay. Something's happening. I'm going straight to that dark place where I don't need to be here anymore. And now when that happens to me, I go and listen to your podcasts and I can feel like there's people who understand. And that's all I think I've ever looked for for the past 40 years.

And I've never had that, which don't you think is amazing that I've never come across that it is. And I'm just standing here speechless. And I know, you know, we've talked for like outside of this show about your story and, um, it brought me to tears because. It's just should not be this way. And I'm so glad that we've been able to help you and, and you know, more than just me, of course, it's my team and it's the guests and who've come on this show, but it's so, uh, I'm so glad, uh, the same time, I'm really sad that it's taken this long for just something to be helpful to you because everyone else is telling us like, Oh, just move on and you'll be fine.

But really what you were looking for, like you said, is some sort of validation, some sort of affirmation saying, there's nothing wrong with you for feeling this way. In fact, you're it's right. Like you're feeling the right way. Given the circumstance that your family just was destroyed, your dad chose another family over you and all the other things that followed.

And it's just tragic that there, and you're not alone. That, that's the thing that's crazy about this too. It's like Holly, you know, obviously it's amazing. Like you're so articulate listening. I could listen to you talk forever, seriously. and you're so articulate with these experiences that you've had. Um, yet there's so many people out there who either won, they lack the awareness.

They can't even put this stuff into words, um, or two, even if they can, um, like, like you found for, for most of your life, there's just nothing out there to help them. And yeah. You know, it can end very badly, like you're saying, even with the suicidal thoughts, which as, you know, people like us are, were more likely to attempt suicide statistically.

And it's just so tragic that there's been so little done for people like us. So thank you for being part of the solution, being on the show. And I, I know this episode's gonna give a lot of people, a lot of hope, you know, the biggest thing was, and I, and I've been married for close to 31 years now. Mm-hmm and I went into it very much.

Like divorce is not an option. So whoever is with me, it. It's not even on the table. So one thing I, I did get very lucky with my partner. Um, my husband is a just amazing man that never gave up on me as much as I tried to make him give up on me. Wow. I tried and I tried to push him away and I walk away and I just kept waiting for the day he was gonna leave me.

Mm. Because that's what husbands do. Right. That's honestly, I can tell you that's how I felt. Yeah. And I will be a hundred percent truthful and I've shared this with him. That it's only been until recently that I'm finally believing that he's not going anywhere. Wow. And we're celebrating 31 years together this year.

Well, married, we've been together 32. Um, and I got married very young. I got married two weeks after I turned 20. Okay. Yep. Yep. So very young and all 30 years I've just been waiting and he, he tells me all the time, I'm not going anywhere. You are stuck with me, but I never believed him, you know? And that, that a hundred percent comes from this divorce experience.

Oh yeah. That I have never believed I am worth enough for him to stick around. There's somebody out there better for. is how I always feel. So why I just need to let him go. So he can go be with whoever where it's, like I said, just recently, I've, I'm really starting to feel like he's, he's not gonna leave me.

Mm-hmm , you know, and we've had three kids together and, um, we in this divorce definitely define the type of mom that I am. It changed everything and, and things will always periodically come up. The more experiences I have that bring me back to this divorce. When I started having my kids, it got even harder, honestly, because then I'm like, I love this little being more than life itself.

How could I ever do anything to hurt that? Mm, wow. And that's how I felt all of a sudden, I know, I feel as a mom, How I feel about my children and I would never hurt them intentionally ever, but then I would feel like, okay, so was, did my parents not feel that way about me? And why not? Yeah. You know, I mean, that, that stuck me for a long time.

And, and throughout my children's lives, I had to make everything perfect for them. Mm-hmm , you know, holidays had to be perfect birthdays, pretty much everything that I missed out on, I had to make right. For them, you know, but I didn't realize that's what I was doing until a lot later in life. Yeah. But that's what I was trying to prove to them.

And I still do this. I'm, I'm very guilty of this constantly trained to prove that I'm a good mom and that I will never hurt them. And I would never put them through the experience I went. Wow. You know, so that's, the divorce definitely affected everything that had to do with my marriage, raising my children, which, you know, they're pretty much raised now ages 17 to 27.

So, but it still brings up questions for me, which is amazing. Cuz I'm to the point where in the near future, hopefully I'll have grandkids. Mm-hmm I could never in a hundred years imagine not being a part of their lives. So therefore it brings up the pain again, as to why can't my dad be a part of my kids' lives or why, how do you choose not to be a part of.

I don't understand me neither. And, and I can't, honestly, I can't, I can't answer those questions. He can't answer those questions. I've, I've tried. I've I've literally written down. This is what I need you to say, and that doesn't work either. Wow. So, I mean, as far as like healing from it, I don't have a ton of advice on healing from, because I am such at an early stage mm-hmm in the healing process.

I don't feel like I've even begun to start healing until I found you guys and related to all of your podcasts. So well, and I just, I think I mentioned this to you. I. Just listen to the one last week where one of your, I don't know if she's on your staff or not, but wrote that your divorce article. I was at my work desk, just literally crying as I read that because I have never heard anybody verbalize the pain like that.

It was amazing to me. Wow. It was just one more feeling of, oh my gosh, they get it. Somebody understands. And so, you know, I kind of hope one thing I, you know, would just kind of hope is that people never give up trying to find that. I mean, who knew at 50 years old, I would still be, I can be brought to tears in five seconds about my parents' divorce.

It's terrible. I, I would never wish this on anybody. It's, you know, not something, I mean, I wish I could talk to every person who was thinking about going through that and say, look, please don't and here's. So it's affected every part of my life, my marriage. And I mean, I'm very proud of the fact I've been married this long and happily.

So it kind of gave, gives me some faith back into family, which even just saying my hearing, my hip self say that is strange because at 50 years old, I'm just getting the thought of family. Back in there. Mm-hmm . Yeah. Even though, even though I've raised children for 27 years. No, that makes so much sense though.

And it's really inspiring. I have to say, I mean, there's so much that you said that I want to comment on, but I can't comment on everything. Oh. Um, but it's just, it's incredible that you've gone on and built such a beautiful marriage and you know, of course not a perfect marriage. Everyone has this thought of course, but just the fact that you're together.

And that's one thing that you reminded me of earlier is that as kids, we don't really. Care about the problems in our parents' marriage. Like obviously if there's something that's very overt and violent and things like that, of course that affects us at time. Mm-hmm . But, um, but the, the other issues, just like you said, it's like, well, yeah, my parents maybe have some problems and that's that, but they're together and we're a family and to, to kids, it's, that's what we want.

That's what we look for. Um, we, we don't expect our parents to be perfect. We expect them to love us and to stick with us and to fight for us. And when that's taken away, that's way more damaging than going through some of the issues that our parents have in their marriage. Yeah. That's perfect. That's exactly true.

And I think the longer I'm married and the more experience I've had makes me even question more as to why mm-hmm because I've gone through a happy per se life. I mean, I, I will say that. I think I am very lucky to have married, who I'm married to. Sure. If it had been maybe someone else who couldn't have put up with everything, I put him through dealing with this depression and all of this and, and keep in mind the majority of this 30 years, I didn't talk to him about this stuff.

Wow. It just, again, I didn't know how he would ever understand because his parents were together. There's no way he could understand how I felt so to not have that understanding, which is in no fault to his own, because I'm grateful. He didn't have to understand. Right. But I, you know, I didn't have that.

And so I chose. To continue the cycle of not talking about it. That's a conscious choice I've made every single day is not to talk about it until recently, but there's definitely in her dear divorce letter. There's just one line. And I have it written that just that where divorce makes you feel unlovable and you're not worthy and you're not good enough.

That's how I have felt. Even in the security of a long marriage, which again, no fault to his own. I feel like I got super lucky to have had somebody who would stand by me through all of this and fight and say, I'm not leaving, but if you look, you know, if you stand back and look at it and really think about it, I had this one decision when I was 10 years old made for me.

Right. Um, to say all these things that you're, you're not good enough, you weren't worth it. And I let that control 30 years. Of love and acceptance. And I'm not walking out on you yet. That one decision when I was 10 years old was more powerful than 30 years. My goodness that says it, right? Like I stop and think about that and think that's that it was more powerful for me from that age to have lived with this for 30 years.

Even though I have a man standing by me who says every day, I love you. I accept you. Just like you are. I will never leave you every single day says that to me. And after 30 years, I'm just now getting that. That's amazing to me. Yeah. It speaks volumes. Yeah. When you hear children are resilient, I'm like, I hope most kids are, but that one decision has been in my brain every single day for 30 years, even though someone's standing next to me saying, I'm not leaving you mm-hmm and I don't believe it.

Wow. That's just, I couldn't have said it better. That is so profound. And it's, it's hard to wrap your head around that. And mm-hmm, I think people who say that kids are resilient. I think there's a few reasons to it. One, maybe they want them to be, and two, they observe us from the outside. You know, Holly, if I looked at your life, I would probably say, oh, you've had a good, happy, yes, successful life.

You mm-hmm , you know, were successful. Um, in your family, like raising your kids, you have great kids, you have a good marriage, you had a successful career, like all these things. Um, but they don't see on the inside, they don't see what we're wrestling with. And I think that's why there's this belief that we're so resilient.

That's, that's perfect because that's exactly the, the way it is too. People do look into my life and they're like, oh, you do everything for your kids. And you, you make their birthday so fun. And, um, you know, every little even St Patrick's day, whatever. There's always a little something or you're right though, you're there, they don't see inside and they don't know why I'm doing all that.

They don't know why, you know, I have to be everything. I have to be home the home mom and I have to be the PTA president and I have to be, you know, doing everything with my kids, all, you know, that kind of a thing. Mm-hmm and they look in and they're like, yeah, you have a great, like, but reality is it's been, I don't a living hell, really trying to deal with it and deal with it alone and alone was by my choice.

You know, I can, I decided I made the decision to, to struggle silently with this and just try to fix it on my own. But it was always because in the back of my head, I'm just not worth it. Mm-hmm mm-hmm. It's hard when people always say, well, say to me, well, you're not alone. The minute someone will say that my brain automatically says, yes, you are alone.

Mm-hmm , mm-hmm, it's automatic. Yep. So that's why I think what you are doing. And these people that are contributing to this are just miracle workers. Because for the first time ever, I feel like I'm not alone. So beautiful is crazy to me. Like I said, after 40 years to have not found anything that has worked to finally feel somebody who knows how you feel.

I mean, it's just incredible. And I can't thank you enough for that, because I honestly feel like you have saved me, literally. I think about the words you guys talk about all of you every single day, because for me that's this divorce has been every single day of my life. Yeah. And now I'm trying to choose to go with.

Okay. Here's what they've said. Here's this beautiful letter that as painful as this, that she had to write it, somebody gets it. Never have. I had that ever. So I can honestly, with all my heart say, you guys have literally saved me because I see hope now. Hope that the next, hopefully 30 years I have with my husband, I can let him in more because I don't feel like I'm crazy.

you know, that's terrible to say, but I don't feel like I'm crazy. Like I did before, as far as nobody understand, you're not crazy. No, this is man. You're making me tear up, like, thank you so much for everything you said. Cause yeah, you're the reason we do this. And so thank you for just sharing your story.

Just the such profound insights you have into this. I, I could tell you've thought about this a lot and you've wrestled with this a ton and mm-hmm, , I'm just so glad we've been able to serve you and play a role in this and it's humbling to hear, but, um, it's, it's amazing at the same time. And uh, like I shared with you before we we're recording, I shared some of the things that you've said with my team and that made them so happy just to know that this is meaningful work that they're doing.

And um, that episode you were talking about for anyone who wants to go back and listen to that, which I highly recommend, and I know all you would as well, that's episode eight, That's episode eight with Miranda Rodriguez. And, uh, in the first few minutes of that, she shares this article. She wrote this letter called dear divorce, and it's just so beautiful and moving.

Um, and even if you listen to nothing else in that episode, just listen to that letter. And it's, it's very profound and, and moving just like, uh, your story, Holly. And I just wanted to say that I I'm so sorry for everything you've been through. And as you know that I get it, we get it. Mm-hmm and I'm just so glad you're on this path, and this is helping you, that it's working, which is so amazing.

And the, the lie that that's core belief that you have, that you're just not worth it. You're not enough. Um, I just wanna say to. That it is such a lie and you are worth and you are enough and for whatever it's worth, um, you're worth it for me and my team to do all the work that we do to, to help people like you.

And so just please receive that and just know that you are worth it. You are worth it. And if we need to remind you every day, we'll do it. Okay. I may need you to do that every now and then for sure that we will, it means a lot, even though my brain says something else. Maybe it'll be 30 years before I believe it, but Hey, one day into 30 years, I'm good.

You know, we can do it. Absolutely. And I have a suspicion that it's not gonna take that long. So I, I, uh, man, I love talking with you, Holly. Thank you so much. And was there anything else you wanted to say before we close out the show? I, I don't think so. I just wanna encourage anybody to, I mean, I give your stuff out to everybody that I know that is thinking even of divorce or just, we need to somehow figure out how to talk about this and open up the communication on this.

You know, I even printed out her article and I carry it with me and I can show it to my husband and say, look, this is how I feel. This is what I went through. So I think it's just important that we continue to somehow, especially for those of us who are terrible at open communication, that it's okay to talk about it.

and if we could hand that article, I, I swear to every couple thinking of divorce, maybe they would think twice about it and just never give up looking. I mean, who knows? You could be 50 years old and, and find your savior like I have found in you and your podcasts. Hmm. So thank you. I can't tell you all.

Thank you enough, because you've all the work you guys are doing. If nothing else, you have saved at least one person and that's me. So thank you.

Ma'am what an interview. If you wanna reach out to Holly, if you wanna speak with her, you can contact her through email or through social. Uh, her email is DZ, N Y land fan Gmail. So Disneyland fan gmail.com. This is all in the show notes, by the way. So you can look there to, uh, to get her email, uh, on Facebook.

You can just search Holly. Ly or just click on the link in the show notes. And then on Instagram, her handle is at DSNY land, L a N D fan. So again, Disneyland fan. And she'd love to hear from you. She said, she'd love to just talk with you, be here for you. Listen, uh, if you need it. So feel free to reach out to her a couple quick takeaways for you to think about one.

We really deserve to know why our parents got divorce. Eventually, you know, maybe if you're really young, your mom or your dad might keep that from you, but eventually we deserve to know what happened and why they got divorced. And so my question to you is this, do you know why your parents got divorced?

Do you know why they separated? And if not, what would it take for you to have a healthy conversation with them about it? Again, you deserve to know, and, and if you're not ready for that, if it would be, you know, really painful or unhealthy, or just too intense for where you're at in life, I don't recommend doing it.

Um, but if you're in a good spot and you feel like this would be a good thing for you to know, and it would help you heal and move on in life, which honestly, I think it would, then you deserve that. And so bring it up and how to do that. A few things. One, I would, you know, obviously sit mom or dad down, whoever you're closer to, and you have a better relationship with start with that person and just preface the conversation by saying.

I have something difficult. I wanna talk to you about kind of just sets the tone, right. Instead of just maybe launching into the question of like, why did you and dad get divorced? You can say that if you want, depending on your relationship, but it's usually good to preface it and say, Hey mom, Hey dad, uh, I have a really difficult question.

I want to talk with you about I'm a little. Uncomfortable bringing it up, but I wanna have a conversation with you about it because it's really important to me. So make sure you preface it and that will help make you a little bit more comfortable and your parent more comfortable and then start with leading with your intention too.

So after you preface it, you can say something like. I really just wanna know why did you and dad get divorced? Why did this not work out? And I, I, I'm not asking this to make you feel bad, I'm just asking it so I can understand. And, and I can find some closure here. I can, you know, maybe move on, move past some of the struggles that I've deal with.

So just tell them why you're asking and make sure it's more about you than them. And it's something that you just wanna really understand for your own sake to help you heal and grow and, and move on in your life. And then when they tell you, just listen, just listen to reflect, you know, don't think you need to go in and have like an argument or response, everything they say, just receive it, just say, okay, thank you for sharing that with me really interesting or whatever response you wanna say.

Just try not to be judgmental in that moment. Just listen and hear them out for what they have to say. And you might get an opportunity to share. Some things you wanna say too. And if you want to share those things, you don't have to, though this might be a good conversation for you not really to speak and just to listen and just to receive what they're saying.

And, uh, you know, at a later point, if you wanna bring up a conversation where you tell them, or, you know, one or both parents about what you've been through, you can do that, but maybe that'll be best, kept for different conversation though. Feel free to do it in this conversation if you want. And then the last point I would say is make sure to just thank them for sharing it with.

Assuming it all goes well. Right? Assuming that they're open about it, assuming that they tell you the truth, you know, hopefully that they will be more forthcoming. Um, just thank them, you know, cuz it's not easy for our parents either. It's not easy for them to talk about it. Maybe they made some mistakes.

Maybe they made some decisions that ended up bringing this all about. Um, but you can just thank them for their time. You can thank them for, for sharing with you. So again, preface it with saying, you know, Hey, this is an uncomfortable conversation for me. It might be for you too lead with your intention saying, Hey, here's why I wanna know this.

This really is for me. And then just listen to reflect on what they're saying. Don't try to refute it. Don't try to debate them or, you know, make it all about the way they screwed up. Just, just listen to reflect and try to understand where they're coming from and then thank them for, for sharing. And hopefully this will maybe open a door for you to talk with them more about this problem, about these issues that you've dealt with because of the breakdown.

Of your family. And honestly, there's research that shows that this is so healing, like the stronger your relationship with mom or dad are both ideally the less, um, anxious you'll feel the less depressed you'll feel you'll you'll deal with loneliness left. You'll, you'll feel less lonely, all these good things that can come about.

If you build up that relationship. Mom or dad both. And I've had the opportunity to talk with my parents at different points. And it has been very, very helpful. It's helped me understand them more. It's helped me get answers to certain things. And honestly just, I guess, have more of a compassionate, merciful heart towards them.

Cuz in a lot of ways, I, I have felt very hurt by them and they know that. And so it's been really good though to, to talk to them about them kind of just instead of this being this big silent wound that no one talks about it, it has really been something now that we're able to at least discuss on certain occasions.

And I hope that we'll have even more conversations like that in the future. So I want the same thing for you as well. The other takeaway, I'm sorry, this isn't as quick cuz I thought it would be the other takeaway Holly gave her kids what she never had and you can do that. Just so beautiful. So inspiring what Holly did.

You can do that as well. And so the question is this, what do you wanna give your children or your future children? That you never had because of your parents' divorce because of their broken marriage. And maybe more importantly, what's preventing you from doing that. What's holding you back. Think about that.

Cuz those barriers that are standing in your way, those are the things you need to focus on. Those are the things you need to work through because if you want that really beautiful life, that that you've dreamed about, that that really is deep in your heart. That that's a desire there. You really need to focus on those obstacles that are preventing you from having that.

And so again, what do you wanna give your children or your future children that you never had because of your parents broken marriage and more importantly, you know, what's holding you back, give that some thought and then make a plan to overcome it. If we can help you in any way, we of course are here to do.

Before closing out the show. I just wanted to say, we'd love to hear about how restored has helped you now. For one, it really gives us insight into what is most valuable for you guys. You know, if you say this episode or that piece of content has been really helpful, it helps us know. To keep doing more of that.

And it also helps us to set strategy for the future. Maybe trying some new things based on your feedback, based on what's helped you, what hasn't helped you. And it really shows other people the effectiveness of our work, which can convince people to, to use our content, to use the tools and to engage with us.

And so if you wanna share your testimony of how restored has helped you just go to restored ministry.com again, restored ministry ES singular slash testimony. Again, restored ministry.com/testimony could also just click on the link in the show notes. And then you're just gonna answer some quick questions about how restored has helped you.

And this could be totally anonymous. It's your choice. You don't have to put your name on it. We just love to hear from you. And so if you wanna please share how ReSTOR has helped you today ever ReSTOR ministry.com/testimony. And finally keep an eye out for more info about the book that we're publishing the next episodes, uh, on social as well.

And on our email list, we'll be sending out more info, special offers, a bunch of bonuses, really cool stuff that we've been working on for you guys. Super excited. So stay tuned for that. Resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 50. Thank you so much for listening. Always remember you are not alone.

We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#049: Healing from Your Parent’s Infidelity | Katie

What would you do if you were 12 years old and you accidentally found out that your mom is cheating on your dad? That’s the exact situation that today’s guest faced as a little girl.

We discuss how she felt that her mom not only cheated on her dad, but on her and her siblings too. Plus, we get into:

• The ways in which her mom’s infidelity wounded her

• How that wound was reopened when two boyfriends cheated on her in high school and college

• The connection between her parents’ divorce and her desire for control in life and relationships

• How on the external, everyone thought she was fine since she excelled in sports and school, but she was really hurting inside

• One very common factor at the root of so many divorces and affairs

Share your story

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• Email and social handles were removed due to guest privacy request. Contact us if you’d like to contact them!

• Books:

  • Forged: 33 Days Toward Freedom

  • Uncompromising Purity

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Imagine that you're 12 years old and you accidentally find out that your mom is cheating on your. What would you do? That's the exact situation that my guests today face as a 12 year old girl, like absolutely devastating. So sad yet. It's so common infidelity is so common. In fact, as you probably know, it's one of the top causes of divorce and it's absolutely heart wrenching, not only for the spouse who is cheated on.

But also for the children who were equally cheated on and abandoned. And so in this episode, my guest and I discussed that and we talk about the ways in which her mom's infidelity, wounded, her. She shares how that wound was reopened. When two boyfriends cheated on her in high school and college, we discussed the connection between her parents, divorce and her desire for control and life.

And especially in her relationships, she explains how on the outside looking in, it looked like everything was fine with her, cuz she was excelling in sports and in school, but inside she was really hurting. We also touch on one very common factor at the root of so many divorces and affairs, powerful episode, powerful story from my guests today with a lot of practical takeaways.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Elli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 49 in today. I'm joined by Katie. Katie is a fertility nurse in Denver, Colorado.

She was born and raised in Nebraska where she attended the university of Nebraska Lincoln and received her undergraduate degree in nutrition science. She then attended an accelerated nursing program through U N M C. She's passionate about sharing her story in order to help others see their potential to be healed, transformed, and live a life fully alive.

Kitty's hobbies include praying, hiking, camping, volleyball, and really anything sports or outdoors. Related. And I have to say, I don't know Katie super well, but I was really impressed with her and everyone I've talked to who knows her, has just said great things about her. So I'm really excited for you to hear this conversation.

Katie is a Catholic Christian, so you're gonna hear her talk about faith, talk about God. And if that's not you, if you don't believe in God, I'm really happy you're here. And my challenge for you is this, go into this with an open mind. That's it just go into with an open mind and I guarantee you that you're gonna gain something from this episode.

You're gonna walk away with some inspiration or maybe some practical advice that you can use to heal and to grow. So here's my conversation with Katie,

Katie. Hey, welcome. Hi, thank you. This is great. Excited to be here. Yes. Yeah, yeah. We haven't done an in-person interview in a long time, so it's great to have you in the little studio just to set the scene for everyone. We're sitting in our little restored studio and uh, good vibes. Yeah. I love it. I love it here.

And, uh, we have, yeah, Katie's sharing some coffee and we're just chilling and it's great to have here. I, I think we met years ago at a party, right? Yeah. Yeah. Kind of just recently reconnected at St. Vincent de Paul, but yeah, it's been a little while. Yeah. Yeah. It's great to have you here. Let's go back in time.

Let's go back to when your parents separated and divorced, take us there. How old were you? What happened? How did you react to it? I was actually 22 and my parents finally divorced. Um, but I will take you back to when I was 12 years old. Um, just because from the time I was 12 until the time I was 22 was just kind of the thick of the turmoil with my parents.

Um, yeah. So when I was 12 years old, . Yeah, it was just kind of like a normal day in the summer, um, in my house. And I don't even know why I was on my parents' computer and my mom had had her email pulled up and I think I was probably honestly just bored. I like don't think I'm like, I was super like. Yeah, you were, I was not looking for anything.

Yeah. I think I was just bored. And so I started just kind of going through my mom's emails and I found an email from her to, um, another man where yeah, just reading it as a 12 year old. Yeah. Just like stomach dropping, like overwhelming nausea, just kind of knowing what I was reading, but then, um, at the same time, just like kind of being very confused.

I still kind of remember, you know, the words that she was saying, like, this is not my dad. She should not be saying these things. Who is this man named Chris? Um, just feeling very confused. And then also I just kind of even remember like the environment of my house feeling different. This place that was safe.

You know, my mom who was safe, everything that I knew in that world, in the world that I knew it in that moment, um, just totally changing. So I was 12 at the time, my sister was 14 and my brother would've been 17. I went and I grabbed my sister and, um, brought her over to the computer and showed her the email.

We went and got my brother, Matt. He came over to the computer, we read the email and I can't remember if it was in that moment or if it was a little bit later, but we ended up asking my mom to come over to the computer as well. Wow. That's great. Which is, I know it actually like now that I think about it, now, it, yeah, it really is.

Yeah. But I don't, I feel like most kids wouldn't have done that. Good for you. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Um, so I remember my mom coming over to the computer, all of us just being there together while she read the email. And I still remember, even in that moment, just like really studying her, like every expression, just kind of reading her body language, just really kind of in this like fight or flight, like who is this person who, you know, because up until that point, she a very good mother, very loving, very attentive, very selfless.

So just like, I think my little self was trying to figure out life. So my mom read it and she told us that. It was a joke and that essentially that, yeah, he was an old man that she worked with and she had gone on a work trip to California and that the email was just a joke. And so I remember this like wave of relief, just like rushing over my whole body.

And I was like, okay, like life is back to normal. This place is safe. I can trust my mom. She's telling the truth. Yeah. Just feeling very good in that moment with my family. And I still remember going to bed that night and lying in bed and thinking to myself, what if she's lying? I think it's just, you know, my pure younger self, just being able to sense, like that was not normal, you know, even if it, even if she's joking, which I don't think that she was.

Yeah. So that, that was just the first time where my mom lied to us. Yeah. I just kind of the next 10 years, my mom. Kind of primarily, essentially was having an affair with another man who she's married to now and who who's different than the person in the email. But I essentially just like took on a new role.

I was like no longer a daughter. I was now a detective and seriously just, yeah, every couple of months would find a text message. Would hear a phone call, just something that showed that she was being unfaithful. And every time we asked my mom about it, she would lie. And so obviously, I mean, we can get there in a little bit, but just massive trust wounds because not only is my mother not being faithful, not being faithful to her family, to her husband, but also like just being lied to and lied to and lied to for so many years.

Um, makes it very hard to trust really anyone, but, um, anyone . Yeah, because it's like this person who is supposed to know you and love you unconditionally can. Not only hurt you once, but hurt you so many times over and over again. And we trust our parents the most more anyone. Right. Right. So if they betray that trust, we tend to think like, you're saying, well, who can I trust?

Right. Yeah. It's, it's so damaging. Well, yes. And my dad is just the hugest gift. Um, he is just a very good, holy humble man. Um, very faithful. So we, we ended up sharing about the affairs with my dad very early on. And so my dad was also kind of in the same boat as us. Um, also just kind of playing the role of detective and also, you know, trying to give my mom every opportunity to change and to choose our family.

So it was just a very unhealthy environment growing up a lot, a lot of resentment and just. No, no trust there between my mom and my dad, my mom, and all of her kids. And yeah, so essentially, um, I'll just kind of fast forward to the end. There was a lot of, a lot of things, you know, kind of in the, in the middle.

But then when I was a senior in high school, my parents were separated and my dad and I were living at our cabin at the lake and my mom was living at our house in town and we always left our front door unlocked. And I remember coming home and the front door being locked and just being a little bit confused and then going to the back door and coming into our house to find like my mom and like another man's like clothes on the, on the ground.

And, um, essentially my mom was there with the man who she's now married to. And so, yeah, that's how really it ended and how ultimately my dad was kind of like, you know, I value the sacrament of marriage and it's just kind of being made a mockery right now. And so that's eventually what led to their divorce, even though really my dad just did not want their marriage to end because of really like the, the sacrament of it.

And he's just such a good and faithful man. So, yeah. And he probably knew what an effect it would have on you guys too, even though of course, that environment you were living had to change. There's no questioning that right, man. Um, but it sounds like he did the right thing. He tried to rescue the marriage and then, um, there wasn't, you know, an effort on both ends, which is so sad.

Wow. That is traumatic. Which often isn't talked about, we don't talk about divorce and separation. Just things that happened in broken families as trauma. Wow. That is unbelievable. And I think, yeah, what, what you said just there being such a disconnect. you know, between the things you saw every day or, or at least the, what you perceived from your mom and then the reality like underneath, and I'm sure I know you love your mom.

Mm-hmm , I'm sure there's like a lot of yeah. Difficult feelings there. Yeah. Just, I'm sure she's dealt with so much shame just needing to live those two lives. Like something's really wrong there if someone does that. And so what we can get into that a little bit more, but I'm curious if you're open to sharing.

How long do you think that stuff went on for? I think, I mean, I think it was just for those 10 years, which is a long time that is time. Do you think it was prior to when you find that found that email or was that a more recent when occurrence that just started around that time? Yeah, I do feel like the timing.

I, I'm not exactly sure, but I do think that it was all relatively new. We did start to kind of see some changes in my mom. I don't exactly know what spurred them, but I do think that. it had not been going on for long before I found that email. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I've heard stories where things have happened for like 10 years, like an affair or something like that.

And, uh, it took that long to come out. Wow. This is crazy. So yeah, man, so much there. Uh, we're gonna talk more about that, cuz I think that wound of infidelity we can call it is very unique and it's not talked about much. And I think because you know, we love our parents and that's one of the things I'm sure you've thought a lot about it's like I don't, you know, wanna hurt my parents.

And one of the things I realized recently I was reading David Goggin's book can't hurt me. And if, have you heard of him? Cause this Navy seal for anyone who doesn't know him, he's this Navy seal who just came from an extremely broken family. He's an African American. And just like basically there, he had real racism in his life and things like that.

basically, he started going down this path of just repeating that cycle. And, uh, in the end he just realized like, if I don't do something and take ownership of this mess that I've been handed by, my parents, I'm just gonna end up just like them. Amazing story. So he, basically, one of the things he says in the book is that, um, his dad was super abusive.

He had like multiple affairs and he said that a lot of times he would hide his own pain and not bring things up that were uncomfortable for his parents, um, because he was trying to protect them. So not only was it kind of this, I'm just gonna hide it, um, to keep the peace, but they're like actively protecting his parents in a way, or at least, you know, one of them, his mom in this case it's because he just didn't wanna hurt her.

She had been through so much already. And I think that that happens so often. So it's an important topic. We'll get into it more. Yeah. Was there anything else you wanted to add about kind of how. You reacted to it in the years that followed. I think that the way that I responded was th this is such a strong word, and I don't feel it now, but I think, yeah, I, my younger self just really resented.

and I was gonna use the word hate, but like, I, honestly, those were words that like, I really truly felt when I was that, that age and going through this, but just really resented and like really, truly hated my mom. Can I stop you right there? Mm-hmm so for, anyone's not here with us in the room. I can see you're uncomfortable when you say those words.

Yeah. Which I just wanna point that out and I'm sure you know this, but there's something that's so prevalent in our culture and probably anywhere in the world is we tend to like demonize negative emotions, like hate or anger or sadness or things like that. So , but it's important and this is good for any parents listening.

It's really important to allow yourself, your children and anyone else. Who's listening to allow yourself to feel those negative emotions and they can't be uncomfortable. I'm not like putting it inside. that's OK. Yeah. But no, it's, it's a real problem. And. Especially for people like us who come from broken homes, we deal with so many heavy and negative quote unquote negative emotions.

And if we tend to look at them as like bad, then we are gonna feel a lot of shame. Like something's very flawed and wrong with us at a deep level, and it's gonna inhibit our ability to heal. So I just wanted to point that out. No, that's so good for me here. You, I not teaching you, but for everyone else, I think it's really important to, to understand.

And that's, uh, one of the things I know personally, I want to teach my kids. It's like, yeah, it's okay for you to feel negative emotions like anger and sadness and all those things. Like, there's nothing wrong with you. In fact, there's something very right with you. And I would say it to you too, like the fact that you hated your mom for what she had done, which brought about so many other problems in your life, so much pain to your dad and your siblings and you like, yeah, it makes sense.

Mm-hmm yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's funny because when I. Was thinking about saying that, you know, it's just kind of something where I know other people need to hear it. And it is something that I struggle to say because I, you know, my desire is not to hate anyone and it's not even, yeah, I do not hate my mom.

It is what she chose to do. And those are the things that I hate and you're right. That it is appropriate. And if I did not, there would be something kind of disordered in me. And so, yeah, it's an uncomfortable feeling to feel, but so necessary when there is real injustice happening. So, absolutely. Thanks for saying that.

Yeah, no, of course. It's I totally get what you're saying. And it's important to, I think, bring attention to that. And one of the things that a lot of people in like Christian circles, uh, will, will hear is, you know, hate the sin. Like love the sin, love the sin, hate the sin. And that's basically what you're describing.

It's like, you can still love someone ball, not approving of their behavior, of the things that they're doing. That's always the goal. In the years that followed too. What were the effects that you saw from the, their broken marriage, the separation, all of that? How did it impact your life? Um, so essentially, yeah, I did lose kind of all respect for my mom and just really did rebel in high school.

And in college, I definitely maintained really very good grades and excelled in sports. And so kind of in the eyes of the world was, was still just very successful and doing just fine while kind of getting into the party scene in high school. And then also into college, I was in a sorority and yeah, just in a couple of very unhealthy relationships in high school and in college.

And actually I think the devil knows where we're weak and he knows where to attack. And my boyfriend in high school was a little bit older than me and in college, he was unfaithful to me. My boyfriend in college was also unfaithful to me. And so, you know, just this, like. these two men also who knew about my parents and their marriage and their divorce and my mom's infidelity still choosing that.

Wow. Yeah. Is just really kind of dries home. This like lie that these people that really are supposed to love you and be selfless and sacrifice are going to always choose themselves. And so that's just something that I am like, just kind of now going through a lot of healing and yeah. A lot of redemption there, but yeah, just a lot of, a lot of wounds on top of wounds in that area.

So essentially just, I think coped with it in. Just all of the worldly ways in the party scene. Yeah. Like really focusing on body image, controlling my eating, and then finally kind of when my second boyfriend was unfaithful, really hit what I would call a rock bottom, I think. Yeah. Just really coping in all the wrong ways.

And then I actually was asked to spend a summer in Jacksonville with my cousin nannying for her new baby. And that is really where I experienced my reversion to the faith. I think I just knew that I was not in a good place and that I needed a change. So I brought a whole bunch of good books. Um, men, women in the mystery of love, rediscovering Catholicism, how to find your soulmate without losing your soul.

And I listened to all of these podcasts by father Mike Schmitz. And I went to confession for the first time in several years and like filled an envelope front and back with sins that I needed to confess. And I really think it was the grace from that one confession that. Really just brought me to where I'm at now, which is in a very, very, very different place than I was at the time.

But it was, I mean, there was so much suffering that summer. I was really just drawn out of this life, um, out of all of the heartache and all of the hurt and Jesus just spoke to my heart and healed it. And I remember calling my sister who was a little ahead in the faith. She'd already kind of gone through a version herself and just telling her, you know, like I wanna be a Saint and I wanna be a Saint now.

And it was just a very powerful, yeah, Jesus speaking to my heart and sharing me, sharing with me, who I was in him and yeah. But definitely went through some real coping mechanisms before reaching that point. So totally. And how old were you, uh, that. I was a junior in college. Okay. So that's good. I dunno.

so you're probably like what, 20, 21? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. Yep. Okay. Good to know. Wow. That's profound. That's amazing. And go into the unhealthy coping. Uh, yeah. What were you looking for and all those things. What do you think was the motivation behind you doing a, of things that you did love, love, and unconditional love and attention?

I think, yeah, it's amazing how all of the ways that we are coping, we are really just searching. And I mean, even in the control of eating and body image issues, I know that that's pretty prevalent after you've gone through just a very unstable family environment. It's kind of like, what can I control? And so even in that, not only am I trying to control the thing that I can control, but I'm also trying to gain the attention of men who, you know, I'm looking to fill this void of.

This lack of love that I was not receiving from my mom. Yeah. Really just looking for love in all the wrong places and yeah. Not succeeding and finding it there. Yeah, totally. No, it makes sense. And it's kind of baffling when we look at it logically, it's like, okay, we're doing these things that are actually gonna hurt us in, in a way to escape from the pain and the void of love and affirmation that we want.

But, but we did them anyway. Mm-hmm and I was right there. Yeah. Had a struggle with pornography and all sorts of things through high school, I dealt with loneliness, uh, depression, to some extent, anxiety for sure. And the interesting thing as well. I did well in school. I did well in sports too. And so from the outside, People were, you know, would've looked at me and be like, oh, he's fine.

He's good. And that's, that's really common for people who come from broken families. Like statistically, most people don't experience what we're experiencing most struggle in school. They even drop outta high school or college. That's what the studies have shown. But for those of us who, who do push on, um, and somehow are able to make it through.

In fact, for me, it became a coping mechanism in itself. Like it, I received so much affirmation in sports because I was a good athlete and, you know, in school I wanted to do well because I wanted to please my teachers, I wanted to, you know, have some sort of affirmation that I was lacking from in my case, my dad, especially.

And, uh, yeah, it's, it's real. And it's a huge mistake. Everyone listening, especially any teachers out there or anyone who loves or leads people come from broken homes. Don't be fooled by that. Um, it can be a facade. It can be absolutely a mask that we wear in order to kind of bury the real pain and herd and, you know, it's possible, we're not ready to deal with it at that point in life.

That's totally possible, but it eventually will surface and we're gonna have to deal with it. So that really stood out to me as well. And the controlled piece too, which I can talk about in a second, but I wanna give you a chance to say anything you wanna say. Yeah, yeah, no, that's very true. Yeah. And just kind of you mentioning like your struggle with pornography, that is something also like, I, I think if I really shared all the details of a lot of the aspects of my parents' marriage, it would just, yeah, that there's just a lot there.

Um, but I have been very affected by other people in my life, struggling with pornography. And so in a way that the Lord has really used it. As kind of a driving force in my heart. So my mom also, I struggled with pornography and there were times that yeah, I would happen upon it or have to, you know, see it or listen to it.

And also, um, or a couple of my ex-boyfriends that I knew were using pornography. And it is just something that I know is such a real struggle for so many people. And yeah, I just want to speak very tender lane to those spots because we all, you know, we are all broken and we all deal with things in yeah.

Different ways. And it's just something that I, yeah. I just think needs to really, I think we talked about more just because it is such a huge way that. Families are broken apart and it not only affects men, women, but the children. And it's just a huge way that the devil can break apart this family unit.

And yeah, I mean, I just have this passion place on my heart where, you know, it's, whether it's talking about it or praying rosaries for an end of sexual impurity or volunteering at a home for women who have been sex trafficked, it is such a real evil in our world. And yeah, just, I hope to be a tool to really kind of battle that in some way.

That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Yeah. It's, it's such a plague, but it's like a silent plague in a lot of ways, like a disease that's, you know, slowly and quietly infecting your entire body. And, uh, thankfully for me, you know, I was young when I saw a pornography, I was 11 and struggle with it for, you know, a few years, but had the chance to.

I hear Jason Everett speak and he really helped me. And one of the things I wanna make sure whenever we talk about this is like, there's so much hope and there's freedom and it's possible to get away from Matt. And so for anyone out there, uh, listening, we'll throw some resources in the show notes like Jason Everett and Matt FRA recently came out with a book called forged.

It's a 33 day challenge to break free from pornography. And I think that one specifically for guys, but there's another one for women called you might be able to help you with this uncompromising purity, which is specifically talking about the issues of pornography and masturbation for, for women, which is something that is not talked about nearly enough as well.

So there's all sorts of things there. But I remember I was talking with, uh, someone through ReSTOR and, uh, she was sharing with me how, when she was young, her dad looked at porn like crazy mm-hmm and he actually tried to get her into it, like tried to get her to watch it as well. And like using manipulative and tricky tactics to do.

super dysfunctional. Obviously everything in a broken family is dysfunctional, but, um, this is very real and it's not something like you said, that's talked about enough, so I'm glad you brought that up. And I think it is a less is at the core of so many broken marriages. Uh, you know, maybe it's the driving factor.

Maybe it's just another factor in so many situations. That's, that's absolutely true. And it's devastating. I wanna go to. Control something that we've learned is that people who've been through trauma. They like you and me. They tend to never wanna repeat that again, right? Oh, no. Not tend to. They never . And so one of the things that we intuitively think that we can do in order to prevent any sort of harm like that from happening again, is to control every variable that we possibly can in relationships, in our careers, in life and school and everything.

And that is exhausting. It is so hard. yeah, you're right. It's something that you, probably those of us who, who struggle with it, we probably don't realize actually how much energy we're putting into it, how difficult it is. And so it's a difficult spot to get to, cuz I remember at one point, uh, I was like at the end of high school, beginning of college, Just literally, probably could have been diagnosed with O C D in some ways, and really struggling with that control piece, just wanting to control even things that didn't makes sense.

Really. And I see my siblings actually have struggled with O C D and, uh, that's the trend actually. We're noticing with people come from broken families. We don't know if there's something that we're gonna be looking into the research on it, but man control is a very, very real thing that a lot of us struggle with.

Mm-hmm yeah. I think the biggest way that I struggle with control is when I'm in a relationship. And I think that that probably comes from the biggest fear or my root fear, really being infidelity or, yeah, just dysfunction in the relationship. I don't think I struggle with control too much, I guess. I guess I do.

Yeah. Even outside of relationships, but, but it gets out the most in your relationship. Totally makes sense. Yeah. And even just, you know, when things don't go as planned. Just really struggling to surrender in those moments. So, and I think I, more than I even know, control most parts of my day and yeah, really I think have this false sense of security in that, because I really do think that it really is.

I mean, we are so much less in control than we know or think, but yeah, I think the illusion of us being in control makes us feel a little bit more secure. Totally. The illusion of control. I love it, that, that nails it and, uh, totally relates to that. And I think that there's a lot of people who do so you're not alone.

um, even in my marriage, um, my wife and I are pretty open about things. That's been something that's like difficult, even it, it gets silly at times. She's like, no, I don't want you to wash my clothes. It's like, I got this or something, you know, more serious where it's like, oh, I don't wanna show weakness or be vulnerable because if I do then maybe.

Uh, what happened with my parents' marriage will kind of play out again and that's like terrifying. That's one of my worst fears and that's going to what you said, the fear of infidelity that is so real for so many of us. And I totally read it with that. That that's probably my worst fear. Uh, at least when it comes to, to my marriage is that like, my wife would cheat on me or even I would do something stupid.

So I totally relate on that front. And I can't imagine how damaging it was for you to go through those relationships where those guys cheated on you. Because man, that is just devastating. It just, yeah, you're a nurse, you know, it's like taking a scalpel and just like ripping open like a, a wound that was maybe somewhat healed or at least, yeah.

Maybe not even healed. It was just opening it deeper and bigger. And that is horrible. I can't imagine you mentioned you touched on this already, but yeah. What were you, you. I, I guess, what did you believe about yourself? Did, did you, you thought maybe, I guess, oh gosh, like I'm just not worth loving or what was going on inside of you?

Oh yeah. A bit, but elaborate if you would. Yeah. Two lies that come to mind immediately. Um, which I still definitely struggle with. I am in therapy now, which is very helpful to kind of unpack some of the lies, but definitely I am not enough. I am not worthy. And specifically I'm not beaut beautiful enough, which is just very interesting because I think a lot of things, anything that I really struggle with, they're all very interconnected and all very tied, you know, back to the source of the wound, which is really ultimately my parents' divorce and my mom's infidelity, but, um, yeah, ultimately just feeling like.

Yeah, I am not enough. I think in regards to my mom, it's kind of this, like, I am not, I am not enough, or I am not worthy of you sacrificing your own happiness for me. Um, and then in regards to my relationship with men, I am not beautiful enough and that's why you have to go elsewhere. And so, yeah, just a lot of lies that, you know, when the devil is working can appear very true.

Yeah. Wow. And I know before the show, we were talking about another episode, uh, on our podcast and you related a lot to the idea that you're a gift, a gift that's not worth giving or not worth keeping which man, it just like strikes to the core for, for so many I know for me too. Yeah. And I think when I heard that, the way that, that lie kind of manifested in my mind was.

that I can kind of on the surface be very charming or attractive. And then once someone really knows the real me or knows, knows what I've been through or knows what's under the surface, kind of like the opposite of like a fine wine, getting better with time. It's kind of like, oh, I'm, I think I'm quite the opposite of that.

And really the more someone could know me and really know what I struggle with or what I wrestle with. Yeah. Actually people will leave or people will not find it worthy and yeah. Kinda like dip out. Yeah. And then what we do with that often is that we tend to start controlling again, that controlling what people see.

Right, because we think, oh gosh, I, if I, like you said, if I show them the real me, then they're not gonna wanna stay around. So I'm gonna create a version of me that I think that they want, that will make them stay and stay faithful. Right. And that never works says it. It doesn't know. It does not. No let's yeah.

I understand why we tried that, but it's, doesn't, doesn't where we think it will work, but it, it just doesn't and ends up leading to maybe a false sense of intimacy. And it's basically building, you know, house on, on lies, which is just so fragile and eventually will fall. Right? Yeah. So true. Let's go to healthy coping and healing.

So what, yeah. What does that look like? You mentioned therapy and obviously your faith is a big part of that, but elaborate if you would, on a few things that have really helped you cope. And heal the most. Yeah, I think really first and foremost, my faith is the most important thing in my life. Um, in my relationship with Jesus, uh, really specifically through the sacraments, I go to daily mass and pray a holy hour every day.

And that is, you know, I think some people see it as like, oh, you were like, you're so holy. And it's actually like, you don't know how much I need it. like, it is a necessity. And it's not something that yeah. Is like out of pride. It's out of like a real profound humility of, I need the grace of Jesus in the Eucharist and my daily prayer to, yeah, really.

I just need it. So I would, and Jesus is so faithful. He shows up every day and gives me the grace that I need and has been healing so much in my heart, in my mind, my body. Yeah, just immense healing over. However, however long. Um, and then, yeah, I would say my sister and really, I think in general, I am starting to now just recognize the importance of community.

I think that so many of the lies that we hear we assume are either just how we are, or they are our fault, or we are alone in that. And we feel very isolated. And so I just went on a life giving wounds retreat last weekend. And so essentially it, it was a healing retreat for adult children of divorced parents and to have the community of people who have gone through what you've been through and who feel the same way.

Coupled with listening, listening to the restored podcast has just been really, really huge for me. And then having my sister who's gone through what I've gone through. Just not feeling alone in it is just more important than I thought it was. And then, yeah, finally I think therapy has been. Very beneficial.

I think therapy is one of those things where you kind of question like, does it really help? And then over time you look back and you are just living differently and you have more of an ability to really question why you are doing what you're doing or you're believing what you're believing and just, yeah.

Really sharing about your life with someone who is a professional. And then who also, um, is just kind of like a third party, not a family, a family member or friend. Who's really gonna kind of tell you what you wanna hear. It's more of just a very necessary, yeah. Person who's been trained to really identify why our behaviors are the way that they are.

So those three things, I think kind of. Yeah. Maybe in that order have been really instrumental in my healing to get me to where I am now. Love it. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people are opposed to counseling. Like, oh, I don't think it'll work. Or, you know, just, it's a difficult thing to go through. So they may kind of shy away from that.

I heard a Navy seal once they, you know, big, tough, like alpha male Navy seal Jocko, willing. I don't know if you've heard of him, but yeah, he, he was like kind of saw counseling as like this weak thing to do, especially a seal it's like super tough too. But he said it helped him to understand that a psychologist, a counselor is just a mechanic for your brain.

so true. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I like one of the things, you know, even if there's not this like huge immense turnaround, cuz a lot of the things in your life you'd already been going down that path. And now this is an additional tool for you to continue to heal and feel whole again, which is awesome. One of the things, uh, it's not a perfect analogy, but if you think of like your car, uh, the more you understand about your car and how it works and what can go wrong and all those things and try to get it to work properly, by bringing it to someone who knows what they're doing, uh, the better your car will function and the better it will work for you.

And so the same, I think is true for us in life. It's like the more. Even just on the understanding level, counseling is so helpful for that. It's like, okay, you make way more sense to yourself. Mm-hmm and that alone, hopefully, you know, there's more than just that. Hopefully there are some real changes in the way that you feel.

If you're experiencing symptoms like anxiety, depression, hopefully you can lessen those, learn to manage them or even get rid of them altogether. Which is awesome. If you can, even just the understanding piece I think is so helpful and I've been through five, six years of counseling myself, so I can say the same.

And, um, at first it wasn't something that I, I thought would be effective. I, you know, would basically just not open up to the counselor was when I was younger. Cuz my parents suffered when I was 11 and so went to counseling then, but then eventually through the years, especially in my teens, I realized, man, this is, this could be really helpful.

So yeah. I love it. But yeah, I'm mechanic for your brain. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. So true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Going back to what you said about God's grace. So anyone listening, who isn't familiar with that, I just wanna explain a little bit, you've heard me talk about this on this show before grace is just God's life in our souls and one there's.

It has a few different functions. One of them is that it gives us the strength to do good and avoid evil. So it gives the ability to, to recognize good and to see good and to choose it and, and to do that thing. So this, and like the secular world, we call that good habits really, but it also heals nature.

Like it, it has the ability to, to heal us in, in ways that we can't even maybe sense or experience, but it, it, it can do that, like kind of like a medicine that you would take for a disease maybe that you can't see, or maybe there's not a lot of symptoms for, but you know, is there, that's kind of how grace works in our souls.

And so it's so important in the healing process, especially on a spiritual level, when we're talking about healing, our relationship with God to have God's life in our souls so that we can do good, avoid evil, but also heal ourselves on, on a, in a very deep, deep way. And there's so much more that can be said there, but those are just some starting points that are helpful to, to underst.

we're always a work in progress. Right. You're still in path of healing. I am too. You've made a lot of progress though. Mm-hmm so I'm just curious what's life, like now, compared to what it was like before contrast that if you would. Yeah. So essentially, um, now, so kind of going through that reversion, I was in college and yeah, just really kind of like living the party scene.

And so after spending that summer away, I came back and was really, I guess, kind of living like a double life where during the week I was still, I w I started going to daily mass and praying, and then on the weekends would still kind of go out with all my friends. And just over time, I started to sense, you know, just like the peace and the freedom and the joy during the week versus, you know, just a profound lack of peace and yeah, just real.

Despair and lack of joy on the weekends, just, you know, sensing myself, trying to kind of cope or fill this void or numb the ways that I was feeling from the effects of my parents' divorce. So now yeah, I am working for Bella. It's a very, pro-life OB GYN, women's health family practice clinic, and it's a lot more mission based where we will serve anyone that walks in our door and yeah, just a very life giving ministry.

And so I'm a nurse doing that. And then, yeah, just really spending a lot of time in prayer and at mass. And then also just giving him my extra time. I I'd kind of mentioned earlier, but, uh, this, the passion in my heart for the battle against sexual impurity and starting to volunteer at a home for women, who've been rescued out to sex trafficking, which, you know, those are all kind of.

Related in one, one way or another. And so, yeah, just really the, the Lord has done immense work in my heart to kind of bring me to a place where I think the ways that I cope is really by going to him now and of giving myself of myself in other ways. Beautiful. Love it. Yeah. And that's a big turnaround from yeah.

Someone maybe who was wearing a mask, uh, putting up a facade of things, everything being okay. And just really like hurting deep inside and even your vulnerability of coming on the show. And I know you've talked to people about your story. That is, that's a big change in itself, cuz I know for me, uh, for a while I didn't really wanna talk about it.

So it, it's amazing to see the progress you've made and you know, hearing your story and then also how you're still working on it. Cause we, I say this all the time on the show, but healing's an infinite. It's like fitness. Like you never wake up one day. At least I don't I wish, yeah. I'm like, okay, I've reached the pinnacle of fitness.

I never need to work out again or eat healthy. No, of course you need to continue to maintain it. So healing, I think in a lot of ways is like that though. We can't really turn a corner and find some real closure. So, so that's, uh, amazing. And thanks for sharing. I, I think it's really encouraging for people who are in a tough spot right now to know, okay.

There's hope mm-hmm, like there's light at the end of the tunnel. You don't need to stay where you are. You don't need to feel the way you do forever. And it doesn't certainly doesn't define you because as one of the counselors we interviewed on the show said that, you know how you're feeling. It, it just, how, how you are.

It's not who you are. It doesn't say it doesn't dictate your identity. So your brokenness is just something you have to deal with. Um, but it's not who you are. And so, thanks for sharing that. I wanna go back to something you said before. I think it's worth touching on cuz I think there's a lot of people in this situation.

Uh, people like us tend to be loaners. Mm-hmm we tend to just kind of go it alone. We don't want to, uh, like I said, open up or rely to heavily on other people because we've learned, especially with one or both parents that people really aren't reliable. And there's some truth to that. I would, it would be silly for me to say there's no truth to that.

There's some truth to that, but there certainly are people who can be trusted. There are good people, you can develop good friendships. You can even have a great marriage. It does take work. It takes time, but it's hard for us to believe that I, I still struggle with that at times, even in my own marriage, but I'm always proved wrong when I try to trust, especially, you know, in my marriage and things like that.

And it is possible that you'll be burned again, totally open to that. But what I'm getting at here is that your realization that community is important. That's profound. Because I know you and I are both high functioning people. I can tell mm-hmm and yeah. You probably try to do a million things in a day.

Is that fair? Yes. Yeah. You like checklists? Yes. Yeah. I could afford to rest a little more so. Yeah. Yeah, same. So I like too much and I don't have enough leisure and all those things. So anyway, we kind of look at our brokenness as a problem to be solved, which in a way it is, but we tend to think, okay, the way that I solve my brokenness is by doing this checklist of items.

And there's some truth to that. Cuz you go to counseling. Typically what you'll get is homework things you should do good. That that's part of it. Um, but what we're learning, especially just through the stories we're hearing and, and the experts we brought on the show is that so much of healing is relat.

Mm, mm-hmm because for the basic reason that so many of the wounds that we've experienced come from our relationships. And so you've already said that a few times, how just the devil's attacking you kind of where you're weak. And so the way the antidote in so many, um, situations is experiencing authentic love in genuine friendships and beautiful romantic relationships and things like that.

But it it's difficult. Isn't it, to, to turn that corner and be like, I need people . Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I remember one of my friends telling me that once is so much of healing is necessary. It needs to happen through relationships with people. And I still remember like holding onto this, you know, kind of one thing where I'm like, I don't want the healing to have to come through me sharing that with someone.

And then in my most recent like romantic relationship, I. I remember sharing that with him and the immense healing that came from it. And I remember thinking back to my, it was a priest friend of mine who had said that, and I was like, wow, you know, he's right. And kind of, depending on how people respond, it can be immensely healing or immensely hurtful.

And so, you know, there needs yeah. Right. But yeah, just the healing that came from that was huge. And so, yeah, I totally agree. So much healing has to come through relationships with others and it's scary, but it is so worth it. Yeah. Yeah. And it can be done gradually over time. And that's one of the things that we recommend.

It's like, don't just open your heart up to anyone. Fully, you know, all at once, do it over time. Find some people, ideally a group of people that you can trust that you can have these vulnerable conversations with, who can really know the real you, not the one that you just present to the world on Instagram.

And so it's so important to have that group of people, but, but it can happen over time. And I think knowing that takes a lot of the scariness out of it, it's like, okay, I don't need to go, but at some point you might have to have a more vulnerable conversation to open up about things. And typically people don't do that first.

You're gonna have to do it first. And then when you do it first, they're probably gonna open up about the, the, their own things in life that have, uh, really hurt them. And. Lots of good stuff there. Speaking of relationships, let's talk about how your parents divorced the breakdown of their marriage, the infidelity, all that has affected your relationships.

We already talked about quite a bit, but yeah. Elaborate if you would on that. Yeah. Well, um, one thing that was very good for me to hear when I went on this retreat, the last weekend was that it is very common for adult children, a divorced parents to have to go through some failed relationships before they find the right one or the one essentially marriage.

And that was very providential timing for me. I just recently went through a broken engagement. And so, um, essentially there, I think were probably a lot of factors, but yeah, ultimately it kind of boiled down to both of us really needing more healing. And I can definitely acknowledge that these last five months for me have been.

yeah, just an immense season of suffering in a way that I know that I am going through some very deep and intense healing. So essentially when kind of right before we got engaged, my boyfriend at the time opened up and shared some things that he was just being more vulnerable about with me and. It really uncovered a lot of things that I honestly didn't even know were there.

So for me, this is very providential timing for me to be able to speak into this now, after all of this has happened, just because yeah, there was a lot of, of wounds that were brought to the surface that I truly did not know were there or needed to be healed. I think kind of in my mind, I had found this very good and holy Catholic man.

And once again, I was safe and I think that I had kind of thought these, these sins that had once really affected me would never affect me again. And then when it was even just like touched on, not nearly in as dramatic of a way as my parents, it just yeah. Brought a lot to the surface. And so it really manifested in like a lack of trust and yeah, just certain ways where I think having to deal with a lot of the trauma that I went through.

Was just really difficult to go through in the midst of COVID and an engagement and just, yeah. Some healing on my end, some healing on his end. So yeah, it was just huge for me to go on that retreat and hear that some people have to go through some broken relationships and then also followed by, I remember Dan who led the retreat multiple times telling me that I am capable and I am worthy of a good and holy marriage.

And I was like, whoa, like, it's amazing how, you know, I can know that in my mind, but to hear it and to actually believe it is so different. And so yeah, it has, it is still affecting my relationships. I think it's kind of one of those things where going through therapy and the community and all those things are going to be just so necessary when I enter.

Into another relationship, just because, yeah, I think in a certain sense, it will be a little bit more, I think if you've gone through something like a, with your parents having been divorced, it's going to be a little bit more challenging, but in a way where it is more rewarding. I dunno how to explain it.

I think if you are really wounded in an area, there is a desire and a tendency for a deeper love. I think sometimes about my friends whose parents weren't divorced and I, in a way I am a little bit envious of, you know, the lack of trauma or the lack of wounds that they have. But in a certain sense, I also know how much I value truth, how much I value fidelity, how much I value, very real and pure love.

And I don't think it would be the same if I hadn't gone through what I'd been through. So even though it is difficult, there's so much hope. And I think a greater capacity for a deeper love, if you really kind of embrace. What you've been through and embrace who you are and embrace the healing and yeah.

Just allow the therapy to work, the grace to work the, all the things. Yeah. There's just so much hope on the other side. Beautiful. Wow. That's so hard. It's a lot to go through. We know a bunch of couples sexually recently. Who've broken off engagements and I think it's S heroic. Mm-hmm, , it's difficult. , even embarrassing.

I'm sure. In, in some ways, which is really hard to, to deal with. Yeah. I think I am maybe the only, I guess at times, but I, I was gonna say, I think I'm kind of an exception. I think a lot of people ask me about it being embarrassing. And I don't know. I, I think it's just grace because I'm like, I, I don't find it embarrassing.

I think I find. Painful. And there's a lot of suffering, but for some reason, I, I don't think I've really felt embarrassed in any of it. And I, I, I think it's just pure grace. It's gotta be or hope or something. I don't know. But yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think, um, if you made, you know, people who do that, who are making that right decision, there's nothing to be embarrassed about.

Mm-hmm I think it's just social pressure, whatever. Right. I think, oh gosh, I set the date and maybe I sent invitations out or save the dates or did all this stuff to prepare for it. And I'm, you know, walking ending this, it can be really hard. Some people don't do that. And I've known people in that situation where they, because they're so invested, they don't, and that is so damaging and it can lead to a scary place.

Really happy for you. And I know that's might sound say, happy you went through that really difficult thing, but no, no, it's it's yeah. That's such a good thing that you guys kind of recognize that and did what was necessary, even though it was really, really hard I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. And that was something I am grateful to have been able to bring up just because I have also noticed how prevalent it is.

And it is something where, you know, I think that people do need to know that they aren't alone in it and know that yeah. It can be such a blessing and can be such a good thing. And yeah. So I'm just happy to be able to share and help people to know that. Yeah, it is, it takes a lot of courage and a lot of bravery and I think the payoff will be huge.

Yeah. Yeah. And just relying on good people. I'm sure you've had a lot, you had a lot of people in your corner who are kind of speaking into and helping you, cuz it can be so hard to make those decisions. When you're in the, kind of the thick of that. So mm-hmm, so good. And I, I love what Dan said on the retreat that you are capable of it.

And yeah, I would echo that to you and to everyone too. I think everyone needs to hear that. And, uh, what you said too is, uh, we're probably gonna struggle more than most people. Which stinks yeah, I know. Right. But, um, but it's true. And I think it's important. I'm glad you brought that up because if we expect that, then it won't be a surprise and we can even prepare and plan for it.

Like, okay, what am I gonna do when. You know, these, my relationships get hard and it's really difficult for me to be vulnerable, to trust when it's, you know, something comes up a conversation where it triggers me about something in my past, like, what am I gonna do? Who am I gonna have in my corner? Whether that's a therapist or a spiritual director or a group of friends or a community, something like that.

I, I think it's really important to acknowledge that. So thanks for, for saying that. And I want to go back to one other thing you said too, like the unaware, this is so common. Mm-hmm for so many of us, it's like, we don't totally understand or appreciate, I don't know if appreciates the right word, but we don't totally grasp how damaging the things that we've been through.

Especially when our family breaks apart. We don't totally understand how that will affect us in years to follow. And you might know this already, but the research clearly shows that the biggest area of our lives that are impacted when we come from our divorce family is our own relationships hands on.

And so. Yeah, it's normal. If you're listening, if you're listening right now and you are in a relationship and you're struggling, or you've been in relationships like that, just know you're normal. It's not fun to be there, but it's not unusual. And the research backs it up as well. And all these stories that we're hearing, just align perfectly with it to, uh, even though it's a sad thing, it's a true thing.

Yep. I agree. Katie, what would you say to someone listening right now who feels really broken? Who feels stuck in life? Who just, maybe they're even at the point of despair, just like, I, I just feel so broken. I don't know what to do about it. What, what words of encouragement especially would you give to them?

I think that this is something that I have needed to hear in the past and would just want people to know just how deeply loved they are and kind of what I was sharing earlier. But yeah, really like, because of the wounds that you experienced, you are really able to invite Christ into those places and they're going to be far more beautiful and glorious than if you hadn't experienced them in the first place.

Um, one of my favorite ways that the Lord works is by bringing far more beautiful things out of something that is seemingly broken or seemingly ugly. Um, that's just one of the ways that he glorifies himself the most. Yeah. Just essentially there's so much hope. And you know, those lies that when you can identify the lies that you hear in your head that are not true, um, that you are loved and that you are enough and that you are worthy.

I think that, yeah. I was so vulnerable in my story, just because I do feel like it, you know, really understanding the, the depth of the, the evil that was there and the ugliness and the, all the things really is a true Testament to the glory of God and the ways that he can really redeem things. And so, yeah, essentially, there's like a very good quote that you are not the sum of your faults and failures.

Um, you're the sum of the father's love for you, which really is just so powerful because I think very often we can identify who we are based on what has happened to us or what we've experienced. And that's just simply not true. And there's just so much hope and just know that I am praying for you and that I am here for you.

If anyone would like to have a conversation or. Yeah, like reach out on either email, Instagram, Facebook, however, um, I'm just so happy to share more. Um, I know that I'm sorry. I, it was a little bit Jesus heavy and that is solely because he is. The most important thing in my life. And if you want to know more about him, I am happy to have a conversation.

I can always like try my best to filter, you know, and just meet you where you're at, but I just deeply care about you, whoever you are, wherever you are, I am here for you and yeah. Would love to support you in any way that you need. Beautiful. Thank you so much for your time for your vulnerability. Uh, I know it's been so helpful for a lot of people.

Um, me included, so thank you for, for being here and yeah. Really grateful that you took the time to do it. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for allowing me to share. It's been very, yeah. Healing and helpful for me too.

If you wanna get in touch with Katie, you can actually email her. Her email is Katie. So K a T I E. And then her last name, um, Mira check, which is spelled M R O C. Z K hotmail.com. We'll throw this in the show notes for you so you can just copy it and email her. And she wanted you to know that yes, Hotmail does still exist.

You could also DM her on Instagram and her handle is at K and then her last name, Mira check, which is M R O C. Z E K the number 12, and then the number 26, 12 26. Again, we'll throw that in the show notes to make it easy for you guys. My biggest takeaway from this episode is just how devastating it is when your mom or your dad is unfaithful.

It's something that we need to talk about more on this show, to be honest with you, because so many of us have been impacted by this just like Katie and the effects of it are huge, huge. It especially makes trusting and loving so much more difficult because in the back of our minds, we're thinking, oh gosh, is this person gonna be unfaithful to me?

And so real healing is needed. There is Katie articulated so well, especially if you wanna love well and build healthy relationships and even a great marriage. And so a question for you to think about if your mom or dad had an affair, how has that affected you, especially in your own relationships, give this some thought, because if you start to recognize how it has affected you, then you could begin to work against it.

You could begin to heal and to grow so that this thing doesn't have power over you. If you wanna share your story with us, we would love to hear it. Some of the benefits of sharing your story first, reflecting on your story is actually healing on a neuro biological level. It actually makes your brain healthier, further writing your story as you would do.

If you shared it with us, is, is also healing. Studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed, less anxious, healthier, and happier, pretty amazing. And sharing your story, not just thinking about it, not just writing it down, but also sharing it with someone.

Verbally or through writing is also healing on a neurobiological level. It makes you healthier. And then lastly, sharing your story also gives hope and some guidance to people who maybe are struggling. They're going through the same things or similar things that you went through, and you can just offer them some hope and maybe some advice on how to get through it.

The way that you did to submit your story. It just takes three easy steps. Go to restored ministry.com/story. Again, restored ministry.com, ministry singular slash story. You'll just fill out a form that guides you in writing a concise version of your story. And then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous blog article.

And so we'd love to hear your story. Share your story today at restored ministry dot. Slash story. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 49. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful at all, please subscribe and share this podcast with someone you know, who really needs to hear this stuff.

Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#048: Fear Became Reality: I Am Just Like My Father | Bart Schuchts

As a boy, Bart Schuchts thought his family was normal. But in reality, it was very broken. When he was five years old, his dad left after cheating on his mom. He remembers his mom crying herself to sleep at night. Seeing the devastation his dad left, he swore to never be like him. 

But in college, his worst fear came true. Sleeping around and using women, he realized: “I am just like my father.” Thankfully, his story didn’t end there. In this episode, he shares:

• How he overcame his anger, lust, depression, despair, and self-hate

• The hurt he felt from opening up to the wrong people about his struggles

• How he learned to have compassion for his father and even forgive him

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• John Paul II Healing Center

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

So often our families look normal on the outside, but on the inside, they're very broken. And that was the experience of my guest today. As a little boy, he honestly thought his family was normal, but eventually it came to light that his dad was cheating on his mom. And following that affair, his dad just left the house, abandoning them.

When my guests were just five years old and he remembers his mom crying herself to sleep at night and seeing all this devastation, he swore never to be like his father. He swore never to hurt women the way that his dad had hurt his mom. But years later in college, his worst fear came true after sleeping around and using women, it hit him in the face.

I am just like my father. Now though he was tempted to despair. Thankfully, his story didn't end there. Eventually he turned everything around, but he shares how he struggled with anger, loss, depression, despair, and even self hate, but eventually was able to overcome those things. He talks about how opening up to the wrong people in his life was actually really harmful.

He explains what it felt like for the wound, from his dad's affair to be ripped open again. When his girlfriend cheated on him, he opens up about how eventually he learned to have compassion on his father and even forgive him to the point where they were able to rebuild their relationship. And in spite of all his brokenness, he talks about how he's been able to build a beautiful marriage, be a father and help people heal through his nonprofit.

Now I'm so excited to share this episode with you. It's such a powerful episode, such an inspiring story that honestly left me speechless at time. This man has suffered. He's made mistakes. He's looked despair right in the eye, but he's come through the other side. And so there's so much hope in this episode, especially if you feel.

Like he did, if you feel like giving up. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 40 Aiden. Today. I speak with Bart. Shoot. Bart is the founder of church on fire.

He has more than 28 years of ministry experience and has been associated with a John Pauli healing center since its inception. Following a desperate plea to God while in an NFL locker room, which you'll hear about in this show, Bart had a powerful encounter with God's love. He is a regular speaker with the John Pauli healing center and has been instrumental in the center's growth.

He's been married for over 25 years and has four children. Now guys, I'll be honest with you. Bart is so real. He's probably one of the most real men I've ever met. It's so inspiring. It's so helpful to talk with someone who's so real now, as you heard, he is a Catholic Christian. And so we talk about God, we talk about faith and if that's not you, if you're not open to anything like that, my challenge to you is this, listen with an open mind.

He's not here to force you into a relationship with God. He's just here to share his story. And I know that even if you don't believe in God, even if you're not open to that right now, you will get something out of this episode. In fact, I know you will relate to his experience a ton. If you don't want anything to do with God.

In fact, if you hate God, I know you're gonna relate to him. Here's my conversation with Bart shoots.

Hey, Bart, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for making time for this. Yeah, Joey, thanks for having me like so many people listening right now. Uh, you come from a broken home. Tell us about that. What happened and how did that impact. Oh, yeah. Joey, I don't know what you're talking about, man. I came from a perfect family.

like all of us, right? Yeah. Uh, you know, it's funny. I, I, I laugh about that, but you know, we actually believe that, which is crazy. I think next to the word deception was our family picture. If you Google that you're on there. Yeah. there we're, but you know, it is how it appeared growing up. My mom and dad, you know, had had seven kids and, uh, I was the second youngest.

Uh, my dad upper middle class worked. IBM, good. Solid family. Went to church, you know, just kind of your, from the outside, everything looked great. And yet when I was two, uh, as the story goes, uh, my mom found out that my father was having an affair and it just shattered everything. And by the time I was five, my dad walked out the door and, uh, we moved from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Down to Miami, which the way I would survive my life at that point was the life of survival. Uh, like you said, in a broken home, just not a lot of people on my street were from broken homes. I was one of the only, which added to my problem. And, uh, it just wasn't as prevalent, you know? And, and, uh, I remember I would go over to my friend's house, you know, and I'd watch them interacting with their fathers.

And I would just look at that and I'd be like, gosh, I don't even know what that's like, you know, mm-hmm . And, uh, I, I would go into my room, my mom's room at night as a little boy, and I'd watch her cry herself to sleep. And, uh, I just grew this deep anger and deep hatred for my father. And yeah. So it's just, it's, it's definitely, it's affected my entire life.

You know, I grew up with a lot of anger, a lot of he hatred, uh, depressed. Uh, disillusioned, just struggling with despair, feeling like I would never really have what I desire because I was a little boy. I desired dad, you know, and desire walked out the door when I was five years old. And, uh, yeah, that, that deeply impacted me and it affected my entire life.

And for most of my life dealt with anger, you know, uh, I wouldn't even say dealt with anger. I just lived out of anger. Yeah. I just kinda angry at the world, you know, just, uh, feeling alone and if it's gonna get done, it's up to me, you know, just all kind of things and just constantly striving, uh, which, which worked as a fuel in my dreams of being a professional athlete, but it, it was destructive, you know, just beating.

At my interior of my heart. Wow. Yeah. And on that last point, that's, um, kind of tricky, a tricky situation because you, in one way, like you said, it worked and so you were affirmed in continuing that behavior because, um, did you played professional sports, right? You played in football, um, in the NFL. Yeah.

Well, I played, uh, college football at Florida state and then had a chance at my childhood dream of playing in the NFL, uh, when I was with the Tempe Buccaneers. Wow. Uh, in camp is actually when my life took a major detour, uh, for the better, but it was the end of that dream in the beginnings of other things.

But yeah, so, and then I played arena football, which is, uh, one is, uh, not heard of arena football. The way I describe it is if you. Get beer thrown on you and make no money play arena football. it was indoor professional football. And I did that for four years. Okay. Wow, incredible. So you, you reached a very high level in the athletic world, so, you know, it's, it's interesting to see like your idea of like self sufficiency and just pushing yourself and living out of that drive that anger that you felt, um, it worked in a way.

And so that was probably confusing, um, in other areas of your life, where it was destructive. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, you know, it, it, by, by outward appearance, you know, not much like my family growing up by outward appearance, things looked great. You know, I remember I was at Florida state. People would say, gosh, you have it made, you know, you're playing in front of whatever.

We had 70,000, 80,000 fans. And, you know, back when I played 1987, uh, we finished 11 and one my senior year. Uh, wow. We finished number two in the country and you know, we played major games, you know, national TV all the time, big, big time games, big time moments. And yeah, from the outside, everything looked great.

And, and I was, I was putting on that facade, you know, and, and, uh, everything looked great. But what people didn't know is when I was alone in my room, And, uh, the, the self hatred, the shame, the, the depression, anger, fear, disillusionment to life, all the things that were there when I was a little kid, uh, would pop up when I was alone in my room, you know, kind of like ping pong balls.

If you tried to hold a ping pong ball, the water it's gonna come up, you know, mm-hmm and, uh, these things would pop up, but I would just ignore them and just go, no, man. And I would just go get busy. And, uh, just living the, the quote college life, you know, what everyone told me was the best years of your life, you know?

And I'd be like secretly in my heart. I'd be like, if these are the best years of my life, I don't know if I wanna live anymore. Cause I'm miserable. You know, that was, that was my interior reality externally. That's not what people saw. Wow. And that's so common. We've seen that a lot with people, especially who come from broken families, like.

On the exterior, we can actually be very successful people like high functioning, good in school, good at our jobs. Um, but like you said, on the insight, we're just like falling apart and, uh, and it's, unless you articulate that or, you know, bring someone in, be vulnerable. It's really hard to, for people to understand that.

Cuz they see things going well for you and, and, and how do you share it? You know, I remember several times going to some of my best friends, you know, uh, some of my teammates, I remember having some, you know, some deep open conversation, at least for what I was capable of at that time. And I remember going to one of my friends and going, man, don't you don't you ever just feel, you know, guilty or, or don't you ever just feel bad?

You know, like, you know, cuz I was just living this lost life and don't you ever feel depressed, you know? And he'd be like, he'd looked at me like what is wrong with you, man? What is wrong with you? So it's like, didn't exactly encourage me. To share it more, you know, like fortunately I had a brother, you know, my brother, Bob, who, uh, was, is, was a psychologist.

And so every once in a blue moon, I would give him a call, but honestly, I didn't wanna call him because he would always tell me about religion or, you know, God, or coming back to the church and be like, yeah, great, Bob, that's you a man. But I, I didn't, I didn't want to hear that. I wasn't in the place to hear that.

And, uh, I mean, he, he, he would give me great advice and great counsel as well, but that was interiorly of me. I was like, you know, I, I was hesitant to reach out, um, because I didn't want to hear that. I just wanted someone to gimme some answers and help me right now. Uh, in my, in my, I. Pain. And, uh, and, and my brother, Bob did help me a lot, but I, I just didn't reach out because I'm concerned that someone, everyone had an agenda, you know, they either were gonna tell me I was weird or there's something wrong with me.

Hey, get your act together, tough it up, you know, or, or, you know, try to get me to come to church or, or whatever, and just, I didn't really know of a place that I could just go and just go, Hey, I don't know what's going on inside of me. Can you just genuinely help me? yeah, man. I can relate so much with that.

I remember. Yeah. Like freshman in college, I was dating a girl and I just was going through a really rough time. Like for months I just felt numb. Just felt nothing. Mm-hmm , mm-hmm and dealt with anxiety and depression during that time. And I just didn't know how to articulate it to. I literally couldn't find the words and, and I'm, I was so afraid that if I opened up to her, she just wouldn't handle it.

Well, even though she was a great girl, um, she just came from such a different background, like a great family. She was like a very healthy and whole person. And I just felt like she wouldn't understand. And I didn't know how to go about that. And I, I really struggled to even understand what was going on inside of me.

Like you articulated so well, right there. So, yeah, man, it's a tough spot to be in. Ah, it's a tough spot. I remember a couple relationships that I had, you know, girls that I, you know, I loved, you know, one of 'em I thought I was gonna marry her and you know, we were close and, and I remember sharing some of this depression and, and some of these places, interiorly and boy, she just, she didn't know what to do, you know?

Yeah. She just went through, you know, and, uh, I think it was the beginning of the end of our relationship. She eventually cheated on me, you know? And then I had another girl, you know, it was just kind of infa. It was infatuation. I wouldn't even say it was love, you know, it was infatuation and a few months in, you know, I shared with her, you know, cause I just, I felt like, okay, here's some people I could share.

What's really going on inside of me. And I just, I shattered her image of me, you know, this exterior image and it wasn't long after that, you know, she says I've never loved somebody and hated somebody so much in my life. And then the relationship ended and I'm like, okay, I can't share this with anybody.

They're gonna reject me. Which was really the, the core of my wound anyway, you know, which I wasn't really in touch with, but abandonment, my father walked out the door, so just kept playing over and over and over again. I felt like I was in a trap. I didn't know how to get out. Wow. That is that's insane.

Honestly, it's so, so hard to go through because like you said, she was that that girl was more in love with the idea of you than you. Exactly. And so you learned that, okay. I'm just gonna be what people want me to be, what they need me to be. And that is so common. We see that left and right with people, young people come from broken saying it.

Yep. Good way of saying it. Yep. I want to go to what you said about the girl kind of withdrawing and then cheating on you. That is so devastating, especially cuz you saw that growing up, like you were cheated on in a very real way. Yeah. As a boy. Right? Talk about that. If you would, how did that impact you?

Yeah. Boy sh devastated me, you know, you know, here, I think I'm I found the one, you know, this is my freshman year of college. Like I, I found the one, you know, my intentions going into college was, you know, I wanna be a, I wanna be a good guy. You know, I wanna, I wanna reach my dreams. I wanna get married one day, have a family.

I wanna, you know, those were my intentions and, and honestly, a lot of it was I wanna be different than my dad. You know? Yeah. I don't wanna be like my dad, you know, in fact, I, I made a vow, which I didn't know much about, but, you know, I made a vow. I will never be like my father. I will never hurt a woman the way my father hurt my mother, you know?

And so I, I was determined. I'm gonna be different, you know, I'm not gonna be like that, man. You know, I'm gonna be different. And so here was, man, I meet this girl. I'm like, okay, here we are. You know, finally I met my wife. My first year of college is amazing. And, uh, and like I said, you know, a few months in, uh, I start disclosing some of these darker secret places in my heart and this place of depression and pain and, and, you know, she didn't know what to do with it, but she didn't say anything.

You know, she just kind of acted like it was normal, but I could feel her distance. I could feel, you know, that. And then the next year, so we went through summer and I was trying to get ahold of her and she wasn't returning my calls. I'm like, what's going. And then, uh, the next year I go back for, for football camp, we had to be there two weeks before all the other students for our practices.

And, uh, she was supposed to be back cuz she was a swimmer in college and, and uh, she wasn't back. And so I kept trying to call she wasn't returning my calls. Finally, she returns my call. And she says, yeah, I'm not coming back to school. And I found somebody else. I'm like, what do you mean? You found someone else?

You know, it's like, what are you talking about? And man, I couldn't, I couldn't function. I literally, I couldn't eat. I mean, for at least a week it felt like two and my emotions, my, it was just nodded up. I had stomach aches, you know, I was just, it was so deep. I was like, what the heck? And then I couldn't function.

And then football, I wasn't doing well. And it just was, you know, I, I kept making bad plays and it was, it was rough. It just, it impacted everything. And it just sunk me into a deep depression and it was like, oh my gosh. You know, I don't know if, I don't know if I can ever find wild. I don't know if I'll ever find what I'm looking for.

You know? And I wasn't connecting any of this to what happened when I was a kid or my upbringing. I wouldn't, you know, and I, I said, my upbringing. I had a great family. My mom, you know, she was amazing. She just loved us. She, she was, she provided all she could, but she couldn't make up for the Roy, you know, of, of the absence of my father who walked out when I was five.

But yeah, it just, all this stuff was just hitting those deeper places. I had no idea. I was just, I was just spiraling. I, I had no idea. And then I just had to toughen up, you know, and I learned from playing football, I was like, oh, you get you fall down, you get back up, you know? Okay. I'll, I'll get back up.

And so, you know, within a couple weeks, I'm back and I'm performing and you know, all the things you said before, you know, I'm just externally, I'm doing fine now. I'm doing good. You know, I'm experiencing some success, you know, but interiorly, gosh, train. Yeah. Uh, I hear you. It's just heart wrenching to, to hear and just I'm sure to think back that younger version of you just going through all that it, yeah, it just, it's so hard.

And that's so interesting. What you said about not connecting with connecting your current struggles or the struggles you were facing then with then with the, the issues and your past with your broken family. That's super common. We've seen like that lack of awareness, uh, seems to be everywhere and it takes some maturity.

It takes some awareness. Like I mentioned to really connect the dots. I'm just curious. Why, why is that? And how can someone. Go through that process who maybe is in that place of like, not, they're not aware. Um, how do they come to that awareness? Yeah, boy, that's a good question. I'm not sure I'm not, I don't know if there's a blueprint.

I mean, I sure. You know, it's, it's, um, I think it's a protective mechanism that we all have, you know, it's like we can, we can handle so much. And, and as people we're amazing, you know, our, our resiliency is, is amazing. You know, like some of the things that people gone through, I mean, makes, makes my story look like nothing.

And, uh, I mean, some of the things that I've heard over the years and some, you know, it's just like, oh my gosh, it's so painful. Just listen to, and I just think, you know, the, the way we're wired, the way we're built, you know, we're very resilient. You know, we can persevere, we can endure, we can, we can externally succeed and, and make things work for me.

It just all caught up to me. You know, it, it just, there just came a point. Like there was several times through college that I'd be like, okay, I gotta change, man. I gotta change. I didn't know how to change. I, I really did have change. I remember there was a time me and this, my friend, uh, he was an offensive lineman.

His nickname was peanut. He was a good old country boy, you know, from Georgia and big old boy. I mean, he was probably six, five by two 80, just massive built and wow, just a good old, good old boy and, uh, a good friend of mine. And I remember he and I one time, maybe that same year, maybe my freshman year of college, I don't remember.

I remember we were sitting out, you know, on a steps and, uh, he and I were having as deep a conversation as we were both capable at that time. Mm-hmm and I just, I was saying to him, I said, you know, I need to change, man. And he says, yep. Yep. and, uh, there was a leaf on the ground and, uh, I, I reached down and grabbed this leaf and I flipped it over.

I said, peanut, it's time, we turn over a new leaf. And he says, yep. Lasted about a month. That was, you know, that just typified my college years. I'm like, okay, I know I gotta change. I know I gotta change because after, after a few relationships ended, I, I came to the point of going love doesn't exist, you know, love doesn't exist.

And so I just lived for temple pleasure. Now I just walked away from everything I believed and valued and, and just gave up. I was so depressed and so discouraged. So disillusioned I there is gave up. And it was in that season and I would just feel guilty. And when I was alone in my room and full of shame and self hatred and all this stuff, and I was like, I gotta change.

And you know, I just didn't know how, honestly, I didn't know how until my senior year is like everything caught up to me and then it was like, oh gosh, okay. How do I change? You know, that, that, that, that was that work for me. You know? And I, I think for every one of us to answer your question, I just think that we each, we each have our own journeys, you know?

And the biggest thing I would say is never give up, never give up because, because there's gonna be answers, there are answers and, and you just have to keep persevering. And I knew that. And so I just kept going, you know, I, I, I, I, I entertained taking my life so many times and I was like, no, I'm not a quitter.

I'm not gonna do that. I'm never gonna quit. I'm gonna persevere. And, you know, little did I know, you know, that I would, I would make my way through it, but I, but I. Amazing. It's hard to, to know that in the moment. Right. Cause everything can just feel hopeless, but you're in a much better spot now. So yeah. I am curious what, what changed?

Like what happened? How did you eventually find healing? It sounds like it was a long journey, but, but what changed? Yeah. Yeah, it was, you know, and you know, through my four, actually five years of college, I, uh, I tried everything. Honestly. I tried everything. I mean, I got into positive mental attitude stuff and you know, and I'd put on this good, positive mental attitude and it worked, you know, I, I was able to succeed.

I would, uh, go to, you know, psychology. I tried, I tried everything I could think of, you know, relatively good things. I, I went to church a few times, you know, I, I, I would go and give it a shot and go to church. And that would last me about a week or a month, you know? And then I would go right back to my vomit, you know, by my vomit, as you know, after my freshman year, when I just gave up on love, it was just, it was just partying, womanizing, you know, just, just living.

Totally lost from who I really was. And just, it just totally just, I mean, a good guy externally, but just, just totally lost. So it was my senior year, you know, and I remember my dream was to play in the NFL. And so in the football field, I had some successes, ups and downs. Now it's my senior year and I'm starting on that team that I said eventually finished 11 and one number two in the country.

And I'm on track for my dream. And I'm like, this is great, you know? And, uh, got a bunch of friends and success and you know, the team's great, everything looks wonderful. First play of our second game. I got injured and I missed four games. And in that season I was confronted with my life and it had happened several times over the five years of my college journey.

But this one just feels like the last straw. And, um, I actually, I met this girl. And, uh, we're just talking at a, at a bar and, um, she we're hanging out for about 45 minutes, you know, or drinking and hanging out. And I had intentions, you know, and here we were, and, and she, uh, looks at me and she says, I hate you.

I'm like, what, well, what are you talking about? I mean, we just met, you know, and she says, not only do I hate you, my whole sorority hates you. And I was like, whoa, what do you mean? I mean, your sorority knows me. Yes. And then she mentions three girls. It is painful even to recall. I mean, this is probably 37 years ago, you know, and I, it's still painful.

And she says, you know, she mentions three girls. She says, because of you, each one of them tried to take their own lives and went, oh my God, you're kidding me. And I thought to myself, whoa, this isn't a game, man. And then what hit me? What hit me in that moment was, oh my gosh. I'm just like my father. You know, I made that vow.

I will never be like my father. I will never hurt a woman the way my father hurt my mother and I'm worse. And my self hatred man was just like, whew, all I just wanted to crawl under a rock and die. I didn't know what to say. I didn't know what to do. I just hated myself. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm a real jerk

And uh, and then this girl says to me, a beautiful girl, she says to me, besides I'm a Virgin, I was like, what? Tell me about this. I was intrigued. I was like, whoa. And I remembered back to when I was 18 years old. When I was in high school, I said to my buddies, when I get married, I wanna be a. And they, of course, you know, said that's a wonderful idea.

No, they laughed at me. They called me names. Uh, I mean, gosh, I will never say that again. Within a month of that, I had lost my virginity and then it, it, my story of the next six years, you know, uh, it caught up to me now and this girl says, I'm a Virgin. I'm like, oh my gosh. Wow. Is it possible? Like, is that even possible?

This girl obviously chose this, you know, like, is this even possible? And it just, it opened my eyes to like, hope. Like maybe my life could be different. Like maybe I can change. Maybe I really can change. Maybe I can marry someone. Maybe I can have a good marriage. Maybe I don't have to be like my father, maybe, maybe things can be different.

And, and that began a process. And then it was a few months later that I get invited to the Tempe buckers and as a free agent, which those listen to me, that just means, you know, you, you didn't get drafted. You were brought in, they, they paid you a little bit of money. And you have a chance to try out and make the team, but it's not a great chance, but I had a chance mm-hmm and so it was there, it was there in between practices, in the temp bay Buckner's locker room that my life radically changed.

And I don't know if you want me to go into that or not go into that, but that's, that's, that's what really happened. I needed something beyond myself. Uh, I think it's an alcoholics anonymous. They talk about a higher power. I needed something beyond myself to help me out of the pit that I was in. And I didn't know what it was.

I mean, I grew up with religion. I mean, I, I, I grew up, you know, my family went to church. I, I tried in college, but it, it, it, it wasn't clicking for me. It wasn't working. Uh, and it was there. It was there on the, on the, actually on the toilet. in the locker room, the Tempe Buccaneers on the, on the doorstep of my dream that I just came to an awakening and just said, uh, God, I don't even know if you will.

I really don't even know if you will. Uh, I need you to show me. If you're real, show me you're real. And that began a year of just things I never saw coming that were just so amazing and, and have, have radically changed my life. Wow. Incredible. Yeah. I, yeah. We'd, I'd love to hear, um, kind of where it went from there, from that locker room.

Yeah. So I I'm saying that prayer on the toilet , uh, in the locker room of template, bucking it a strange place, you know, for this to happen. Yeah. And, uh, and before, before I was, I was actually petting myself on the back going look, how far you come, man, look what you've overcome. You know, you're at the doorstep of your dream.

This is what you wanted since you were eight or nine years old, you know, I was just kind of pat myself on the back and it hit me. I'm like, man, I'm M. I'm I'm miserable. Uh I'm I'm so depressed. I don't wanna live. This is what I thought would make me happy. This is what I thought every man wanted. And it's not enough.

And I don't know where to turn. I don't even know if I wanna live, what do I do? I wasn't gonna go talk to my teammates. mm-hmm, hasn't gone well for me in the past, you know, unfortunately. And, um, I was like, what am, what do I do? And sitting right there, I just, I cried out, like I said, I just said, okay, God, Hey, remember me?

You know, part here. I need to know if you're real. I mean, I know Jesus died for me 2000 years ago. I that's great, but what good does that do me right now? Mm-hmm I need to know if you're real and if you're real show you so real to me, if not. I don't wanna live anymore. I'm done. I'm worn out. So now it's a week later.

No one knows that that's just private in my own heart. And no one knows, like I said, this prayer and I, uh, a week later I get the dreaded call. My dream of playing in the NFL comes to an end. I go back to Tallahassee and here he is, again, my brother, Bob, eight years older than me. We're playing golf. And he's telling me about this men's week.

And he went to, and he's telling me about some of these guys' stories. He doesn't know. I had said this prayer. I I'd said, I said this prayer. And he's telling me about these men and I'm listening and he's surprised I'm listening because usually I'm like, yeah, Bob, that's your thing, but I'm listening. And then he says, Hey, Bob, we have another weekend coming up.

Would you like to go? And I remembered my prayer and I said, yeah, Bob, I'll go. Oh, really? You'll go. Yeah, I'll go. . And uh, you know, I jokingly say if, if Bob would've said you're gonna be on a weekend with 50 men. Who were gonna hug one another and say, I love you. I would've never gone. yeah. Right. I was not ready for that.

And, and, uh, but sure enough, here I am on this weekend with 50 men who are hugging one another and saying, I love you. And I was uncomfortable with that. I was stiff as a board, but you know, I was there and, uh, it is, it was 10 men shared their, their testimonies, kinda like I'm sharing now. And two of them deeply impacted me.

And, uh, one was a politician who talked about how he had been unfaithful to his wife and destroyed his family. I felt like my father was up there repenting. I was like, oh, this is touching me. Oh, this is strange, you know? Yeah. And then another man, uh, he was JC man of the year. He wanted to be JC man of the year and said for 10 years, I sacrificed my marriage, my children to be this business man of the year.

And he got invited to New York and among all the men, they call out his name. They hand him a plaque. He makes a speech. And as he is walking off the stage, he hears a voice in his head, said book in your hand. He said, I looked at my hand and I saw a piece of wood. With my name on it. And he said for this stinking piece of wood, I sacrificed my entire life.

He just wept. And he said everywhere, he went, he just started weeping. He would go to convenience store and he would just start weeping. Wow. And, uh, and then he said, all of a sudden, he just started feeling that's presence. And, uh, and, and so I'm listening and I'm like, okay, this is, this is interesting. Now it's Sunday.

And you're sitting around these tables. Have you ever been to one of these weekends? You know, there's, there was six men to a table, 50 men in the room and you're doing little things and a little skits and little things, you know, little, little too cheesy for me, to be honest with you. Mm-hmm I was there. I, I stayed and, um, and then you get letters from loved ones and, and, uh, Bob who's on the weekend with.

Writes me a letter. You, so Bob has always been in my life and influential in my life. Even growing up, he was the one stable one, you know, and he, uh, he was kind of a father figure in some way. He's eight years older than me. And, uh, here he is on the weekend with me and he writes me this letter and Bob says, bar, I just wanna let you know.

I love you. And I'm proud of you and I'm reading this going, what is he drinking? And what is he talking about? He loves me. I don't love me. He's proud of me. What are you proud of me for? I just failed at the only thing that I was good at. I'm I'm what do you mean? You know, and so I thought, well, I should thank him.

So I get up, he sees me, we meet in the middle of the room. The guy reminded me of my father and the politician was standing behind us. He says, you two brothers need to hug. And he pushed Bob and I together. And he just, the walls of my heart just collapsed. I just started sobbing. I don't remember having cried like that ever in my life.

And I'm sobbing. I mean, it was like a damn broke open, and I'm sobbing in Bob's arms, just wailing and Bob's crying. And I look around the room and every man's crying and I, I feel this presence fill the room and I'm like, whoa, this feels great. What is this? You know, and I'm, I'm just sobbing. And then interiorly, I hear this voice and, and I know it's God.

He says, Bart, I'm your father. I'm a father to the fatherless and I love you. And I lost it and I just absolutely fell apart. And I was like, whoa, man. And then there was a priest there and I went to confession and I mean, I unloaded all my mess and, uh, and I told him, I said, man, just, uh, a few weeks ago I was in the locker room with the Tempe buckers and I cried to God and I said, God, I need to know if you're real.

And today he showed himself real. I said, I wanna give my life to Christ. I wanna follow him for the rest of my life. That was 32, 33 years ago. And, uh, it's honestly, it's my biggest passion. And it is the reason my life changed. I mean, it was like in a moment I encountered what I've been looking for my whole life, which was love, you know, God doesn't just love us.

He is love itself. And I honestly, I didn't experience that in, in, in church. I didn't experience that in my Catholic school to be quite honest with you. Um, maybe it was my fault, but I, I, I never experienced that until. I was, what was I? 23, 24 years old. I'd come to the end of myself. And that's when it was almost like he was waiting for me.

And he is like, okay, now I can, now I can move. Now I can, now I can penetrate past these barriers, these walls and, and get down to his heart. I didn't realize all the walls that I had built up. I didn't realize all the self defenses that I had. I mean, if someone would've talked to me about God or told me about something, I would've, it would've been like, you know, to beware the dog sign, you know, they'd have got close with, oh, you know, I just, I didn't wanna hear it.

And, uh, I, I was just, I was hardened and I was, but it was, it was when the walls of my heart broke down, but it took some circumstances that honestly woke me up. And then, and then God had room to move in my heart. It wasn't religion that grabbed me. It was, it was God himself and, you know, good religion represents that good religion brings us into that kind of experience and the encounter, but it was, it was him, it was, it was his presence.

And, uh, it was, it, it changed me forever. Wow, incredible. So inspiring. And like you said, you know, if you would've tried to do this on your own or had someone try to orchestrate all this, it wouldn't have worked. And so it's amazing how, yeah, God, God works in mysterious ways. And it's so good to, to hear you were able to, to turn things around.

Cause there's so many people who go exactly through what you went through and they don't find that help and that hope and just devastating. It's so sad, Joey, it's so sad, you know, and, and I get it, you know, I get it. Um, but it's just so sad. It's so sad that, that one it's sad that, that we, as the church.

Have not done a better job of just representing that love. Yeah. Just being honest, you know, we gotta own that. We, we haven't done, we haven't done a good enough job of just bringing that presence and bringing people into an encounter and, and, and loving people, you know, so often we're judging, you know, I felt judged.

I felt judged growing up. I, I, I did, I did not feel, I did not feel the love now. People probably tried, you know, but my barriers were so thick that, you know, I didn't let them in, but it's, it's sad. You know, it's really sad. So many people are hurting and, and just needing, needing to be loved, needing to be seen, needing, to be heard, needing to be value.

And, uh, frankly, I don't, I don't think we've done a good job of that, you know? And I think that's changing. I think we're, we're waking up, but it's, you know, people like you, you know, that are, that are sharing the heart, you know, the, the things that really matter, you know, the depths of the heart, we all have a heart, you know, we all have that in common.

You know, we could talk about all the things that divide us, whether it's religion, whether it's race, whether it's politics, all that stuff. That's just the external garbage, you know, the reality is we all have a heart and when we meet each other at the place of the. That's that's when things really start to happen, at least that's, that's my story.

That's when things really happened and changed. Yeah. No, it's incredible. And I'm so inspired by you and your vulnerability and the work that you've done. It's incredible. And I, I wanna share that with our audience, with everyone listening right now, but before we get to that, let's talk about your father.

So obviously there was just a lot there, a lot of wounds there. Tell us, how did you overcome that, that hatred of your father? Oh yeah. Uh, and that's, that's, that's, that's a great question and a great, great journey. You know, as I said, I hated him. I, I, I, I hated him. I had no relationship with him. I don't remember him.

He left when I was. I had, there was times when I saw him and it just wasn't a pleasant experience. I didn't know him. Um, there was a time when I was 12 or 13, I went and visited him and that was good and painful at the same time. Cuz he just sat on his Lazyboy chair and here's this man who's called my dad.

I just want relationship with him. We did have an impactful, uh, conversation, but it was, I didn't, I didn't know him, you know, I didn't know him. And so here it was after I encountered God, the father, you know, and it had just, it changed. Um, it was a whole journey and I went to an Institute of ministry. I, I did a lot of things in that time.

Went through, got freedom from what I think probably was a sex addiction. And a lot of things changed in my heart. And in my life, there was a lot, a lot has, has happened in the last 33 years. But one of the things that happened, it was probably three, four years after that encounter that I just shared, I was just, I was just alone.

I actually went out into the woods for eight days. wow. With just a hammock, a tent, water, a journal in a Bible. And, uh, I, while I was there, one of the things God was speaking to me about was to forgive my father. And I was like, no, I can't forgive that, man. I actually had a name form. It started with an a and it would hold.

I said, there's no way I'm gonna forgive him. And, uh, and this is how candid I was with God. I'm like, no, I'm not forgiven him. I'm not forgive him. And then I, I read and I read a scripture and it says, unless you forgive, you will not be forgiven. And I honestly had the mindset of fine. Then you don't have to forgive me.

You know, I was not gonna forgive this man. I mean, I was like, no way. I felt like I was giving him, you know, a pass, like, oh, it's okay, dad, you know, it's okay. No, it's not okay. You ruined my, you ruined my life and no, I am not gonna forgive him. And, um, and, and I was just hard, man. It took me a while. It took me a while.

And then one day I was actually reading another scripture and it says a good tree produces good fruit, a bad tree produces bad food. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit and a bad tree cannot produce good food. And as I'm reading this, all of a sudden, I start looking over my family tree, my mom's side, my bad's side.

And I saw all the destruction, just the, the affairs, the divorces, the drugs, the alcohol, the womanizing, the, you know, the, you name it. I just was seeing it. It was like, whoa, my gosh, my family, tree's a mess. And you know, and, and we, we have a great family and, and, but yet. We all have our brokenness in our dysfunctions.

And it was like, it was just being magnified. And I was like, oh my gosh. And then I saw my own journey and I was like, oh man. And I'm some of the worst fruit on this tree. You know, I'm like nine college years were just horrible. And some reason in the midst of all this is I was just owning my own mess.

All of a sudden, I just had a compassion for my father. I was like, you know what? My father's just like me. He, he was lost and broken and, and didn't try, didn't know how to get past his own struggles. And that's what led to his decisions that were very destructive. And that's what led to my decisions that were very destructive.

And I was like, all of a sudden, I was just like, I was able to forgive him cuz I had already been forgiven a few years earlier. Jesus had forgiven me and I just felt cleansed. And yet I wasn't able to forgive my dad. And then here, all of a sudden I had this compassion and I was able to forgive him and it was just like this weight off of my shoulder.

So it's like, oh my gosh, you know, I have a compassion for my father. I, I get it. I understand. It's not okay. I understand, you know, forgiveness is one of those things. It's like, we think, okay, I'm gonna forgive and, and okay, that's getting them off the hook. There's no way I'm gonna forgive that person for what they did.

They grow my life. Now, I think true forgiveness is sitting down and counting the cost. You know, you gotta count a cost before you can forgive a debt, you know? And it's like, so it's like just sitting through and going, okay, dad, this is what you cost me. You know, you cost me my childhood. You cost me my, you cost me the, the pain I watched my mom and my siblings go through all the things that you cost me and my journey and my life, you know, my choice is yes, but you know, if you were there and then, and I just kind of went through it all in my, in my own head and my own imagination, I was just like, you know, and I just counted the cost.

I didn't hold back. I just, I just kind of let him have it in my imagination, you know? And then I was like, okay, all right. He's he's just like me. All right, dad. I forgive you. I didn't know this Bob had done similar around the same season of time. And then it was just a, a little while after this few months after this, uh, Bob reached out to my dad, my brother, Wayne who's two years older than me played football at Virginia and played, tried the NFL as well.

And his and my dream was to play in the NFL together, successful business man at the time and still is, but was, that was kind of his life not going to church. My brother, Dave, um, my brother, Dave, when my dad left, he was 13. He became a heroin addict in and out of prisons and, uh, just lost and, and is so Bob invites him.

He comes our half brother rich, who is the result of my father, uh, second marriage, which my mom didn't know about my brother-in-law Nick, my brother-in-law Ken and myself. We all went to this men's event that Bob invited us to, and everyone said, Wow. And here we are with our dad and we're under a gazebo.

My dad very close. We don't know him. I mean, here's this man called dad? I don't know. As a father, it's just really strange. And, um, we're sharing and talking and, and interacting. And we started asking our dad some hard questions because the nature of the, of the mens of it, he was open and he shared his childhood.

He shared the affairs. He shared his journey. He had regret. And, uh, and it was this real open conversation when this weekend ended. I didn't know this, but I'm with my brother, Wayne. And again, Wayne and I shared football together, but we didn't share it this level, that what was about to happen. And, uh, the phone rings and Wayne picks up the phone and I'm listening as well.

And it's our brother, Dave and our brother, Dave told Wayne and I that he had aids. He had gotten a hold of a dirty needle to heroine. It had gotten aids. And Wayne and I put the phone down, embraced one another and just started sobbing, sobbing. And, uh, it was just this brokenness. And then we watched our brother Dave go through this process of his body, just dwindling.

He actually lived his last year's and my brother Wayne's house in the process of his dying and suffering my father, my mother, all my siblings. Uh, we'd all gather at Wayne's house and to take care of Dave. I mean, just broken humbling times, you know, people having to bathe him, change him, shriveling down.

I mean, it just really difficult, painful time, but in the midst of that difficulty, We had healing as a family. Wow. We would cry in one another's arms. We would forgive our dad, sent us all a letter asking us to forgive him. And he was for being an alcoholic and his choices and the different things, and all this healing was happening and it was miraculous.

It was just amazing healing. And then after Dave died, Dave died on my brother Wade's birthday in his house, in my brother Bob's arms. And my father's arm breathed his last in my father's arms. And at his funeral, we all read excerpts from Dave's Bible. So babe, David had a change of life in this process and Dave would highlight these scriptures and then write these notes that it was his desire that his, his suffering, his illness would bring healing to our family.

And that's exactly what happened. Uh, very profound. Uh, and then, uh, started having a relationship with my father. We started going to men's events together. Some of the men's events, Bob and I would be speaking, I would share very candidly, some of the things I'm sharing now, uh, even more detail, the hatred that I had for my father, my father would be in the audience and people would go up to my father and they would say, how are you doing with this?

You know, how are you handling your sons being so candid about this? And our father's answer was, I think it's beautiful that God could take my mess and my mistakes and redeem it. And, and in turn he said, I'm so proud of my boys, you know, and just beautiful. And then his, his last year of life, I mean, there's just, there's so much more I could tell you, but just, just beautiful.

I mean, God's redemption is incredible and he's so real, so much more real than, than, than we even allow people to see . Yeah. Um, it just it's, it's, it's incredible. Uh, the forgiveness, I, I love my father. He, he died a couple years ago and just had a beautiful. Last month of his life, where he visited all his kids and just more healing and more things.

And I don't know if you want me to go in any of that, but it's just, they're all, you know, beautiful. Just, just beautiful things that God did. I mean that that's the only place I can give the credit. There's no way we could have orchestrated any of this amazing, like you're literally making me tear up.

It's just unbelievable how much change happened, how beautiful the transformation was of your family and, wow. Wow. I, I don't, I'm a little speechless, to be honest with you. Yeah. Yeah. So beautiful. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I'm sure we could talk forever. Sure. You have so many stories. I, I did wanna know, comparing your life now to what it was, you know, when you were in college, like contrast that for us.

Like, what is it like? I could never, I could never have imagined what my life would've been like two years past that point. I didn't know I was gonna live honestly. I was daily fighting just to, just to keep persevering and, and living. And thank God thank God. I never quit. You know, I never quit. That's one of my greatest strengths is I never quit.

I persevere, I get up, you know, I fall down, I get up, you know, and I'm so glad I I'm so glad I've had that. And, and you know, a lot of that's been instilled from my family, my mother, um, just to never quit, you know? And thank God. So yeah, man, here I am now 30 whatever years it is now later, I'm 57 years old, married to my wife, Brooke.

We've been married 25 years. We have four children, three girls, boy, 24, 20, about to be 2218 and then 15. I I'm, I'm traveling the country. Sharing my life, my story, hoping to do the same thing you were doing, which is bring hope in life and, and, and, and, and help help people, you know, help people. I just remember all the times, I just felt so hopeless and helpless and powerless and just, oh man.

And I wanna see, I wanna see, I want to give people hope, you know, but I know it's not by just giving them a bunch of nice things. It's it's, it's, it's it's by the power of God. Yeah. That's that's my passion. I'm I'm living a dream, living a dream. Amazing. Amazing. Like, God is good. It's so incredible to see that the change in your life.

And it's so inspiring too. I know you've given me hope and I know everyone listening, uh, as well. What would you say to someone listening right now? Who is moved by your story, but maybe they're like, I'm not ready for this God stuff. Yeah. What would you say to them? How can they heal? What steps can they take?

Yeah. I mean, I, I get it. I hope you hear that in my journey. I get it. And I get it. I wasn't ready for the God stuff either. You know, and honestly, in some ways I'm still not, you know, I don't like the way it's represented. Sometimes I don't like the way I represen him sometimes. You know, I, I, but, but he is our source of life.

I mean, he is, he is our source of life. He's one who created us. He's the one, he is the answer, but it's not necessarily the way he's been present. That, you know, it's and like I said earlier, you know, we need to own that. So forgive me on behalf of the church for misrepresenting him, because when you encounter him himself, when I encountered him in that moment, it was like, I realized, oh my gosh, this is what I've been looking for my whole life.

I've just been looking for the father's love. You know, he, he is the answer. He is the answer, but honestly just, just pay attention to your heart. No, don't, don't, don't put up all the, the walls and the facades. That's, that's, that's only hurting you, you know, a and as I know that from my own journey, it's only hurting you.

Yeah. You gotta be careful who you let in, you know, those vulnerable places, but there are people that can help and reach out, but just like me and the silence of your own. Just say God show me, show me, just lead me. Show me amazing. Amazing. I know, uh, you, like you said, you travel the country doing ministry and speaking to people.

Uh, what do you guys offer? How can people learn more about you if they want to? Yeah, well, I have, uh, I do, I, I work for two different ministries. One, uh, is with my brother, Bob JP two healing center. It's a JP small lives, uh, JP small life, small eye healing center.org. Uh, you can go on there and you can see all the events that we offer and different things we offer.

And then I have my own ministry, my own website. It's called church on fire.live. L I V E. You can go on there. I have online courses, uh, which are different sources, different tools I've won on knowing purpose and, and desire. I have other ones, an equipping material that I have. I have one that tells the story more in detail called encountering the father's love.

I have some from events that I had done, some things on there that I, I try to price low, so that make it available to people. You can go on there. Incredible. Okay. Thank you. I even saw some of those you were given away for free, which is super generous of you. And I wanted to, uh, yeah. Give you an opportunity to just share maybe one story of transformation that you've seen in helping people through your different ministries.

Uh, cuz I know you guys are super effective at what you do. And I just want people to know that if they were to work with you, that you know, maybe it wouldn't happen the same as the things that you've seen, but there is so much potential and hope there. So yeah. What, what sort of transformations have you seen in people who, who do work with you guys, man?

Uh, you know, Joey, I've seen so many things, uh, as you're asking, I'm trying to think of a specific detail. Maybe one will come as I share this. I I've seen, I've seen incredible things. I've seen miracles. I I've seen people, physically miraculously healed cancer. I've seen, uh, metal pins and plates in people's back and they were able to bend over and touch their toes for the first time in their life.

I've seen lives emotionally, radically changed none of this by my hand, or anyone else's hands all of this by the power of God. Um, this is what, this is what Jesus came to do. This is, this is the real, this is the real Jesus who, who, who came to set us free. You know, he says, uh, he whom the Lord sets free is free.

Indeed. You know, as you come to Christ, old things, pass away, all things are made new. You know, that's my story. You know, I've seen countless thousands of lives, uh, radically transformed at an emotional level. And just through, through God encountering them in very profound ways. You know, one, one little story.

That's just kind of a general one for those who are, who are churched and, and, and maybe not experiencing this, this, this tangible presence, but a guy just recently shared with me that he. Had been, he had gone to, he'd been a Catholic, his whole life gone to masses entire life. He's 60 years old. He had gone first through 12th grade Catholic schools.

And, uh, and he said, after an event, he said, I never know the presence of God like this. I've never felt his presence and the presence of holy spirit like this in my life. And I never really understood what it really meant to be Catholic until today. And I've been, I've been radically transformed. My life has been changed and, and, uh, I'm so excited to continue on, like, this people's lives.

We do events with priests and, and the healing they go through is profound. You know, people that, you know, whether you're in the church or not in the church, you know, from the media and the church is getting rocked with scandals. And, and we see that we've seen that on both sides. And we're seeing tremendous healing and transformation in individual's lives and countless people's lives.

And yeah, I mean, I, I, I'm just trying to think of some specifics, uh, beyond that, but no, that's incredible. To be honest, you, God's amazing. Yeah. God's amazing. Incredible, incredible. This is possible for every one of us, you know, and honestly, I mean, I. I don't mean to talk bad about it, but sometimes religion upsets me, you know, because we've represented this thing on this, this external source, you know, mm-hmm and, and, and it has to come from the depths of the being the heart has to come from the overflow of the life of the presence of God.

It has to be with the very presence. The holy spirit, the church even says to call upon the holy spirit every day. He is, he is the source of life. If you never walk into a church, you know, that's your choice, but just try, just sit there in your room or wherever you are and just say, come holy spirit, come Lord Jesus.

Just give him, give him a shot. Just invite him. . Yeah. And, and he, he is the transformation. He is, there's a, there's a, there's a quote in the church that says this. It says the fire of the holy spirit is the transforming end. The fire is the transforming energy of the holy Spirit's actions. Mm. He comes like a fire that warm, that just warms up the depths of our being and reaches us at the core at the heart.

And it it's the heart. The heart is the place of transformation. The heart is the place of life or death. The heart is the place of battle. The heart is where we've been inflicted with these wounds and the heart is where Jesus wants to come and set us free and bring us life. And the holy spirit will bring his transforming energy and life and passion into your heart.

And I pray that even as I'm saying this, if you're listening that he touches you now and that he brings hope and life and healing to your own heart. Beautiful, incredible. And I totally agree with the kind of the misrepresentation of religion. It's, it's very sad and hollow and it's sad. I love that.

You're changing that and yeah, if people wanna follow you on social, are you on social? How could they do that? You know, I do have some social media, but honestly as a my generation, man. I, I flounder with it, you know, I that's okay. I have Facebook page. I have, uh, uh, Instagram, I have text, but honestly, I don't even know how to manage any of 'em I need a come alongside of me.

There you go. Help me, you know, but they can go on to, uh, let's see. I don't even know what my Facebook page is, but my name bar shoots. They can probably find it. Sure. Um, on Instagram, uh, I guess it's the same Twitter it's uh, at bar shoots. S H O O T S. It's spelled differently. My real spelling is S C H U C H T.

Um, but I don't post a lot. I just try to, you know, I just kind of post stuff with my family. Li honestly, I need a, I need a millennial. Who's gonna come alongside again. take all that stuff and get it out there. Yeah. No, that's fair. No problem at all. We'll make sure to link to all those in the show notes guys.

So you, uh, don't have to remember all that Bart. Thank you so much for being here. I, I just wanna give you the last word. Uh, what encouragement would you give to someone listening right now? A young person listening right now who, who feels stuck, they feel broken. Maybe they hate themselves the way that you hated yourself, what would you say to them?

What encouragement would you give them? Um, especially if they're wrestling with this whole trauma of the breakdown of their parents' marriage and their family. Oh man. I, first of all, I, I feel your pain. I, I it's real to me. I, I understand it. It's, uh, one never give up. Don't. Don't quit, no matter what the temptation is, don't quit.

I remember I used to sit in high school, the end of my uncle's dock. I lived with him, my high school, my senior year, feeling lonely and depressed my world falling apart, all kind of things happening. And I remember sitting at the end of his dock, looking out over the water, looking out to the other side of the river and just going what's on the other side, man.

This is what it looks like right now, but what's on the other side. Little did I know that was preparing me for the journey of, of my life. It's like, there's hope on the other side, there is hope on the other side and, and just keep pressing in. And Jesus is that hope and I'm not trying to push religion, but he is the answer.

Not, not, not in the negatives of religion, but him himself. He is our source of life. He came to bring us abundant life, call on him, ask him, do like I did God. I just need to know if you're real. I mean, I've heard all this stuff. Just show me, just show me, show me, lead me to the right people, show me, but never, ever, ever, ever give up.

And I understand if you struggle loving yourself. I understand that completely. Not until I encountered love himself that I learned to love myself. You know, God is love. And, and I love myself today. I love myself, uh, not in a weird way, but in a healthy way, love yourself. Never give up.

If you want more content from Bart, you can find that at church on fire. Dot live again. That's church on fire.live. Once you're on that website, click online courses, and then you can choose a course and you can buy it. Now, if you're not ready for that, you can click on store on that website. Again, that's church on fire.live, and you'll find some, uh, free previews of the courses that he offers.

If you wanna know more about the John Paul to healing centered, you can just Google JP two healing center, or you can go to JP II healing center.org. You can click on the schedule on that page, and then you can sign up for a live event if you'd like to attend one of their events. One takeaway from this episode for me, is that it's so important to find the right people in your life to talk to about your struggles about your broken family.

Because like Bart said, it can actually be harmful to talk to the wrong people. So the question really is how do you find. The right people to talk to, to open up to, I, I think there's a few principles that you can follow. One is look for someone who has empathy, the ability to really put themselves in your shoes, even if they haven't been exactly through what you've been through, they can put themselves in your shoes.

Next. I say, find someone who won't judge you, someone who will just listen, who will just accept you as you are now. Not saying they're gonna prove of anything bad that you've done in your life, but they'll just accept you. And they'll love you wherever you're at in life. Next. Find someone who is trustworthy, someone, you know, who is gonna keep your story.

Keep your struggle secret. They're not gonna go tell everyone. They know. Another point is find someone whos suffered. I've found typically that people who've suffered and especially learned to deal with it in some healthy way are more trustworthy. People who haven't suffered much in life. They tend not to be able to relate with you, especially when you're sharing something deep and heavy with them.

And so I'd say find someone who, you know, has been through some stuff in life who's suffered next, find someone who's older and wiser than you. Someone who can offer you guidance, not just listen to you, but maybe offer some advice for how to deal with whatever you're dealing with. Another benefit too, is they can help you keep healthy boundaries with them and other people in your life.

Because so often when we bring our problems to someone, there is a temptation, especially for people like us to develop an unhealthy reliance on them. And so they could help you keep those good boundaries, which will help keep the relationship healthy. And then lastly, I'd say it's usually best if you're a man that you go to another man, and if you're a woman, then you go to another woman.

So quick recap, look for someone who has empathy, who won't judge you, who's trustworthy, who's suffered. Who's older and wiser, and who's typically the same sex as you are, but you might be asking, how do I know that they have all these characteristics? The first thing of course is maybe you've seen these characteristics in that person in action with other people, or maybe even with you, if you haven't seen that, maybe you've seen hints of those characteristics, or you've heard other people talking about that person saying, oh, they're really empathetic.

Or they've been through a lot in their life or they give great advice. And then once you've figured out someone who you can open up to, then it's just a matter of improving that relationship. You might have an opportunity to be there for them. Maybe if they're more of your peer, as opposed to a mentor.

But whatever the case, ask them, if you can talk to them, tell them, Hey, I'm going through a lot of stuff in my life right now. And I just need someone to talk to. Is it okay if I open up to you and see what they say, honestly, they might not be able to help you at that point in their life. They might be in a rough spot and they might not have much capacity.

That's okay. Find the next best person. And even if they are available, it might not go perfectly. It might not go how you imagine it to go. But if you do the things that I mentioned, you'll be on the right track and the likelihood that they're gonna be open and helpful. Is gonna be a lot higher now to help along those lines.

We've built an online community here at restored, and it's just a safe place for you to speak openly about the pain and the problems that you face. It'll help you not feel so alone. And you'll be challenged to grow into a better stronger person. And recently we started doing online, uh, digital virtual meetups, where we all get together on a call and just talk about stuff we chat.

And we also discuss, uh, different things. And we talk about the pain and the problems in our lives due to the breakdown of our family and our parents' divorce separation, all those things. So this is a group of people, young people. Like you, who you can be a part of who you can talk to. You can find support from, if you wanna join, just go to restored ministry.com/community.

Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/community. Fill out the form. And then we'll communicate through email to add you to the group. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restorministry.com slash 48. Thank you so much for listening. I really hope this has been helpful. It's been useful for you.

If it has been, I invite you to subscribe and share this podcast with someone, you know, who could really use this content. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#047: How Healing Improved My Life, Marriage, and Friendships | Sandra Howlett

When your parents’ marriage breaks apart, it feels like an earthquake. The most basic foundation, your family, is shaken and shattered. It’s disorienting. It’s traumatic. As a result, we tend to go through life doubting anything can last. 

But thankfully, we’re not doomed to skepticism our entire lives. We can heal and feel whole again, like our guest Sandy. In this episode, she shares:

• How she beat chronic depression

• How her choice to forgive her parents led to feeling free instead of stuck

• The sexual mistakes she made and the healing she’s found

Share your story

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Email: sandrahowlett25@icloud.com

  • How Fear of Abandonment Can Affect Your Relationships 

  • Death of Innocence

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As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When your parents' marriage falls apart, it often feels like an earthquake. The most basic foundation in your family is shaken and shattered. It's disorienting, it's traumatic. And because of that, we tend to go through life questioning what won't fall apart. We doubt that anything can last, that we can rely on anything or anyone.

But while that is a real struggle that we face, we're not doomed to perpetual skepticism our entire lives. We can heal and feel whole again. And we can even learn to trust and find security which we touch on. In this episode, you're also gonna hear us discuss how my guest beat chronic depression, just incredible story, how her choice to forgive her parents actually led to feeling free instead of stuck.

She makes the great point that mentors are an incredible tool to help you heal. And. She shares how healing her brokenness has actually helped her find peace in life, build good friendships and even improve her own marriage. And then she gets real about the sexual mistakes that she's made and the healing that she's found.

This is really raw and real conversation with solid advice. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation. Or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 47 and today my guest is Sandra Hallett. Sandy grew up in Southern California, where she spent her time, camping, surfing, and horseback riding Sharon earned a bachelor's in journalism from California state long beach and has written for black belt and boys' life magazines and various community newspapers.

She's been married for 20 years and now lives in Minnesota with her husband, mark. She has a blended family with two stepsons, one earning his masters in theology and another who is a talented musician and one son in his first year of minor. Seminary Sandy rediscovered her Catholic faith upon moving to Minnesota at nine years ago.

And in the last two years has begun the healing process from her parents' divorce. She's a life giving wounds online retreat leader and works part-time for marriage material, a pro-life organization. Like I mentioned, this conversation is very raw and real. We talk about topics that honestly are not talked about enough.

And so I hope this is helpful for you. I know it will be. So here's my conversation with Sandy,

Sandy. Welcome to the show. Thank you. I've been really looking forward to this, to, to everyone listening, uh, Sandy and I actually got to, to meet up in person recently. We had dinner together. Uh, Sandy, thanks again. I, uh, I hope you enjoyed that pizza that we had, and it was really great to meet you in person.

Yeah. So good to, uh, see the face on the other side of the voice. Finally. you make me sound special? I don't, I don't feel special at all, but, um, no, it, it was great to, to meet you in person. That definitely changes the dynamics of the interview. Cuz a lot of the people I interview, I don't have the pleasure of meeting in person, but if any of you listening, if you're ever in Colorado, uh, hit me up, it would be great to, to see you.

But Sandy's so good to have you. I, I just honored to hear your story to, and I, I know some of it already and just share it with restores audience. So I'd like to start by you just taking us to your C. Like what happened with your parents' marriage, with your family? How old were you? Uh, how did you react to it?

Yeah, so I was four, maybe close to five when my parents, um, separated got divorced and I really hardly remember anything. I mean, my, the only memories I have growing up are mostly after the divorce. I have a couple of strong memories right before it happened. Um, one of 'em was an earthquake and so that's kind of weird.

So it's kind of ingrained in my, in my memory. And, um, in fact it was kind of a metaphor for me for a while of like just the ground shaking and me as I was getting older and dealing with the issues of divorce of just kind of feeling like I'm, you know, on shaky ground and never quite able to find solid the ground for myself and in my life and stuff.

Anyways. So my dad, um, had convinced my mom, so we were living in Southern California and this was the seventies. And, you know, there was a lot of stuff going on in the seventies, but, um, he, um, apparently wasn't happy in his marriage and he talked my mom into, um, going to this swingers party. And, um, I know they were like maybe smoking a little pot and stuff too at the time, cuz we had found pipes in their dresser drawers.

But anyway, um, you know, the, they both came from very conservative Catholic background. So it was just kind of, I don't know how to explain how all this went down, but um, anyway, they end up at this party that my mom says she really didn't wanna go to my dad has a very forceful personality. So I kind of understand how that worked.

And he met my stepmom, who she's still my stepmom 50 years later. And um, you know, their story is apparently their knees touched and sparks flew. And that was that. I do remember vaguely, I think it's a real memory of them. Uh, my parents arguing at one point yelling at each other and then after that nothing.

And so he moved out temporarily to an apartment and then, um, Moved in with my stepmom at her house. So we, I guess the summer after they got separated and, or divorced, my mom, my dad had been trying to encourage my mom to go on trips or vacations by herself. Um, which I probably because of the marriage, but she had, she tells me that this trip was pre-planned before they separated.

So she was gonna go to Europe for the summer. And then after they separated, of course, he probably didn't wanna have anything to do with it, taking care of the kids and letting her, you know, go on this trip. But they were separated and she was very, very angry and very upset. And apparently had the babysitter drive us over to my dad and stepmom's house and just drop us off and say, here, you're taking the kids, you know, mm-hmm oh, wow.

which, um, you know, Obviously it wasn't great that my dad, you know, left the family, but it's also not great with kids who are in turmoil, like early on in a divorce for your mom then to also kind of take off for a summer. So, you know, trauma upon trauma, obviously we kind of made it work, but like I said, you know, we were, we were pretty.

Angry and naughty kids. And we would lock the babysitter out of the house during the day. And I know my sister ran away at least once. And, you know, I mean, we were, we were pretty traumatized when I was, so that was when I was about four or five. And then when I was 12, my mom was getting remarried. And so the courts at that time, so we had had the custody was, you know, at that time it was mostly given to the moms and then weekends with dad.

So every other weekend with my dad, which of course didn't really help our relationship either. I think he had some anger from the divorce, but he also has a very strong personality, you know, despite that. And so, you know, it was really hard and my parents, so, you know, we had what would be considered a good divorce, of course you, and I know there's no such thing mm-hmm , but as far as that, there wasn't any open fighting.

We had a pretty good lifestyle. I mean, it was definitely. We had to watch our pennies at my mom's house. We had a lot less money. So we were really, you know, on a tight budget, but we did a lot of camping for vacations and things like that, which is just, you know, one of the greatest memories of my childhood is just camping with my mom and our friends and stuff.

So in a way, it's, it's a good thing. We didn't have too much money. But then on the, then on the flip side, you know, my dad was doing quite well. He was an entrepreneur. He had his own modem company, started with a group of guys. He ended up, um, I mean like early on, he has like several patents developing stuff he was selling to apple was one of his customers and, you know, stuff like that.

So. So it was kind of a dichotomy because we had, you know, a pretty, you know, tight budget at my mom's and then we would go to my dad's and there was lots of money mm-hmm wow. And, you know, it was really hard for my mom, for instance, like we would come home after Christmas with all these expensive presents for my dad that she couldn't afford to buy us.

And so that was tough, but so they weren't, you know, really talking, even though it wasn't volatile and, um, We would have to make arrangements with our dad directly when we were children for our, every other weekly visits, which was really stressful for us. Cuz again, he was kind of, um, you know, a hard person to deal with.

I always in my, my PC adult life, I call him prickly. He was a little prickly, not, not more fuzzy, you know? Um, and so me and my sisters would fight, you know, like we're small children. We're like, you gotta call dad to make arrangements. I'm not calling him. You call him. I'm not gonna call him. you know, it was just like kind of stressful for us, but yeah, that's kind of how that went and then.

When I was 12, the courts decided, uh, and my mom was getting remarried and moving about an hour away from, you know, we had stayed in the childhood home where my mom and dad had lived, which was great also because it really gave us, you know, more stability than we would've had as children of divorced.

Cause I know a lot of children are divorced, have to go back and forth and Lu their stuff around and you know, all of that. And I understand you wanna, you know, maintain a relationship with dads, et cetera. But actually I feel like it was just a blessing that we didn't have to do that. Mm-hmm . And so, you know, at 12, my mom's getting remarried moving away and the court says, well, you're old enough to decide what parent you wanna live.

Yeah. Well, I think back now, and I'm like really at 12, I'm old enough to decide that. And not only that, but to have all that pressure put on me, like so much pressure. Oh my gosh. My sisters had already decided and with maybe a little urging from my dad that we had lived with my mom, the majority of the time, and maybe it was his turn or maybe it was, you know, let's live with dad.

So I'm like the last one. And they keep asking me, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? I'm like, I don't know. And it, you know, it's kind of a lose, lose situation. Absolutely. You know? Um, so my sisters were already leaving. If I went to live with my dad, my mom would be completely alone. And not to mention, like I said, my dad, wasn't the easiest person to live with.

So I'm like, well, you know, let me go live with my mom, just because it's easier. And because I wanna be there for her and you know, so that's what happened. Wow. There's so much there. It just breaks my heart to think of, you know, the four or five year old, you going through all of this stuff. And then everything that followed through the years, I think your analogy of, you know, the earthquake is so fitting and we've heard this again and again from people how it just feels like the foundation has been taken out underneath you.

And it just feels like kind of the way that we talk about it is if the, the family is the most basic fundamental sort of foundation that we're supposed to be able to rely on. And that falls apart, we tend to go through life feeling like, well, what won't fall apart? Like what can I actually rely on? And so we have so many feelings of insecurity there.

Yeah. And I had, um, a lot of nightmares as a child. I'm assuming it was after the divorce. And I remember going to sleep in my mom's room a lot because I was scared. And I, I still, to this day, remember the scary clown and the, the, in my dreams and the washing machine that I was stuck in. And then at sometimes I would try to sleep with my middle sister and she would kick me out.

And so I specifically remember one time waiting till she was asleep and crawling into her bed. And it's like a little twin bed, you know? And I'm curling my little body at the base of the bed near her feet and sleeping, you know, after she had already fallen asleep. So she couldn't kick me out. it's like so sad.

Yeah. Oh man. Yeah. I can imagine if you were to go back right now and just be with that little girl. I am curious. I, I, yeah. What would you say to, to her if you were to go back right now, I know I'm putting you on the spot, but, um, I'm just curious. Gosh, that's a great question. I mean, it's different. I, I could talk to my 20 year old self easier maybe than the little girl's self, but I know that, um, you know, it's not your fault.

You're loved. I mean, that's, I think the biggest thing with children is that. and not that we consciously think it's our fault, but somehow it gets into our psyche that we were somehow at fault, like parent didn't love me enough or whatever. I wasn't enough to keep them there. Or, you know, so just to, just to let people know that it's not their fault and you were loved and your parents are flawed.

Like when we're children, we just think our parents know everything. We just think that they're so perfect. And they have it all together. And. I can tell you as a parent now, and as an adult, like we don't know anything. we're maybe as we go along, we're just better at pretending yeah. I mean, it's kind of humbling.

And then it also tends to give you. A little more perspective and a little more forgiveness for your parents when you get older and you just realize that everybody's doing the best they can, we're all human, we all fail. And yeah, you just don't realize how kind of flawed your parents are as a child.

mm-hmm yeah. We, we tend to make them into superheroes thinking that, oh my goodness. Especially, you know, dad, we look at him and we say, oh my goodness, he's Superman. He can do nothing wrong. I know I looked at my dad like that. And then when my parents separated, that was part of the reason that it was so hard on me.

I was like, wait a minute. They're not perfect. And, and there's actually, you know, been some real problems going on that I wasn't aware of and all sorts of stuff that just crushed my trust in, in both my parents. Yeah. And, um, you know, I recently went on a retreat for children of divorce, with my stepson and, you know, he got, uh, An earful on probably the first time he's ever heard it, that I had issues with my marriage, to his father, you know, which is my current husband.

And, you know, I'm sure, you know, most people don't talk about marital problems that much. So even your friends and family and, you know, everyone thinks that everything's just perfect. And, um, there's a lot that goes on behind closed doors. yeah, absolutely. I, I wish we would talk about it more in a constructive environment, you know?

Cause I think, yes. I think one of the things that happens often is that, uh, one or both spouses go to their friends and they just gossip and they just complain and there's nothing constructive about it, but I, I really wish we would talk about those problems market. I think it would lead to better solutions.

I, and I definitely wanna get to that, uh, further with you, but yeah, I wanna give you a chance now, if you wanted to add anything there. Oh yeah, no, we can, we can talk about it a little bit later, but I know some of my friends really appreciate the fact like I'm. Pretty outspoken. Um, I've got some of my dad's traits.

I have a lot of, you know, ideas and opinions and things like that. I could talk forever, but that is one of the things that some of my friends appreciate my outspokenness and my, um, willingness to speak about. In a general way about marital problems without complaining about them. Like, yeah, this is hard, you know?

Yeah, absolutely. I, no, I think that's so good. And looking to you as an example, I'm sure is so helpful to, to so many of your friends and anyone who, who mentored look, who looks up to you. I wanna pause for a second. Just say anyone in the Minnesota area that Sandy's been working on, starting a support group.

I mean, at least you did right Sandy for a six week kind of stint. And, uh, that's possibly something that you will be doing in the future too. So at the end, we'll give people info if they wanna contact you, but it just came to mind because you are a go getter. You wanna start things, you wanna help people.

Yes. And I think that would be useful for anyone in your area. Are you in the, uh, Minneapolis area? Yes, I'm in Stillwater, Minnesota. Perfect. Okay. So it's about 30 minutes outside of the cities. Mm-hmm okay. Sounds good. So we'll make sure to, um, connect people with you if they wanna know more. Yeah. Maybe you all could, could help each other and get something going up there.

Definitely. Awesome. Love it. Two, two things you said before that really stuck out to me. One, you said you were kinda living in two worlds and I think that's the reality for so many, uh, children of divorce is that we live in two worlds, but it's so interesting. The financial difference. I've seen that with my parents, even to this day to, to be vulnerable.

Um, my dad was always working in construction and very experienced and good at what he he does. And so he, um, you know, always had the opportunity, usually had the opportunity to make a lot of money. And so when we're with him, it's usually going out to eat. And like you said, Christmas gifts and birthday gifts and things like that.

We're a little bit more extravagant. And then on mom's side, you know, she stayed at home for so many years to raise us, which was just such a sacrifice and a blessing. Like I, I'm just really grateful that she did that. Um, but then she had to go back to work. And so, uh, right now, you know, she's gonna be okay through retirement, but it is a real struggle.

And as we know, divorce just destroys people financially as well, especially if it's drawn out, like my parents' merit, uh, divorce was. And so, um, I can really relate with that. The other thing that you said was being the middle man, um, a number two of six kids as, uh, some people listening will know and, uh, being one of the oldest, I think I especially had to assume that role, especially cuz my parents were just kind of at each other's throats and it's like, okay, we're gonna have to be the mediator.

My, my older brother and I, and even my younger siblings. Different points. And so that, that is just such a struggle and it's such a difficult position to be in for, for kids. And I was curious offhand, uh, if you had any advice for anyone in that situation right now, who is the middle man who maybe feels like they need to be the middle man either to just keep things civil between mom and dad, or maybe protect their siblings.

I know I've assumed that role to protect my siblings so that my dad or my mom wouldn't go to them instead, they'd come to me cuz I felt better able to, to handle it in a lot of situations. But yeah. Any advice for that young person who is dealing with being the middle man? Yeah. That's not your job, you're a kid.

It's not your job. And I understand if you have siblings. So if you say no to being the middle man for your parents, that maybe they'll go to the siblings, but you know, it would be nice. Um, as a group, if you know, all the children would realize and you know, have a pact like. No, that's not our job. I think children of divorce are really forced to grow up, you know, way too early because of all these things.

And, you know, we've already lost so much of our childhood and that's just one more thing. And so for them to just realize that that's not what they're being asked to do is not reasonable. It's not something that should be put on them as children. And to just say no, , you know, like to find those boundaries somehow and, you know, and realize that, you know, don't be afraid of losing the love of your parents, cuz that's the, that's the biggest motivator for everything we do with our parents.

We're trying to please them. And you know, even if your parents get angry at you, they usually don't stop loving you. So, you know, it's just, it's just to realize that hopefully, you know, you can, you can kind of. Somehow set a boundary or find, or find a different solution to you having to feel like you have to be the middle man, and just maybe have a talk with them and just say, I'm not comfortable doing that.

You're the adult. I think you should do it. yeah, no, that's easier said than done. Oh, absolutely. And, and one thing to add there, uh, you might need to remind them frequently. I know I had to do this over the years and, uh, it's, it's sad, but. Yeah. I, I think there's so many raw emotions between our parents. So we, we might need to remind them of the boundary.

It's not like something you set once and it's done forever. That would be nice. I wish it was that way. Yeah, exactly. But, um, but reminding, and I love that idea, Sandy, about kind of teaming up with your siblings instead of just going it alone so that the middle man position goes to another sibling. That that's really good cause that, that is a great alternative.

And so getting them all on the same page, then maybe one or two of you approaching the, your parents and just saying, okay, we all agree on this. If, if, I mean, maybe you all could do it, but if not, uh, just one or two of you maybe could approach them and just explain how it's not good. It's not healthy. And they really need to be talking themselves to each other or through maybe some other mediator, like a family member or a friend, someone who's a counselor, even an attorney, someone who's exactly better equipped to, to handle those things.

So, uh, yeah, I love that. I, uh, also, and what a difficult position you were put in, just wanna touch on that. Cause I think there's a lot of people who feel that pressure of choosing between mom and dad, whether that means living with one or just O in other ways as well. And so, like, I know for, for me, when we go back to Chicago, we typically stay with mom.

And I know naturally because we're staying with mom it's, uh, a little bit more difficult to make time to see dad. And I know he feels kind of hurt by that and it can be difficult. Like we really make, we put forth an effort to have a relationship. You know, I put forth an effort to have a relationship with both of my parents, but it kind of just naturally because of that.

And so I've certainly feel that tension now, but man, I can't imagine as a, just a young woman. Uh, being forced to choose like that. And so a again, I just wanted to get your advice for anyone who's maybe in that situation now. And I, I'm not sure what all the court systems, uh, do at this point in terms of determining living situation.

I hope it's better than, than what you described, but I'm just curious. Yeah. Any advice for someone in that situation now who's listening. I don't really know. I mean, once they've, once they've put you in that situation, I'm sure some people would say, well, I never got a choice and it's nice that you got a choice, but I feel like it was just way too young to have that kind of burden put on me.

But yeah, I've always hated Christmas. It's it's better now, but growing up worst time of the year, having to, you know, bounce back and forth between parents' house. And even now we have to, you know, make sure that we spend the right amount of time, give everybody equal time and. You know, we're driving all over my family lives in the LA area, Southern California.

And as you know, the traffic's pretty bad there and just, that's an understatement. just driving from house to house. And now that I'm married, I have my in-laws, you know, that my husband's side of the family to visit. So now there's three family units to visit and it's just so exhausting, you know? Yeah. Um, and I, I just feel like kids really carry the burden of all that.

I was telling somebody at this retreat, like, you know, wouldn't it be great if we just had our house and all the parents had to come to us and had to coordinate with us rather than, you know, I mean, it's a logistical nightmare. I have to tell you because you know, not just like going to each house, but you know, which one do we start at and when do we, where do we go and how, you know, I mean just, oh my gosh.

yeah. And there's so much tension there too. Like if you go to this family's house first, it's like, well, you're, they're your favorites then? Or you spend maybe a little bit more time here than there. And it's, uh, it is, it can just be a mess, but I agree. It can be exhausting. And, um, yeah, I, I love that idea.

We should maybe try to implement that, just having them come to us. And I know some people listening have done that, which is great. Yeah. How did you see, uh, your parents' divorce affect you in the years that that followed, uh, you already explained some of that, but I'm curious if you would elaborate a little bit more.

Yeah, well, gosh, I feel like I wa I was a train wreck as a kid really, or as a teenager, young adult. I mean, I can't emphasize how off the rails I was. And I'll talk about it later. I guess if we have time, one of the things I didn't realize though, is how much anger I had. Um, so I'm, you know, pretty happy go lucky person.

I. I don't know, had good friends when I was younger and just joked around a lot and just had a lot of fun. But, um, you know, underneath there was just so much anger lurking there, which I found out after I got married of all times. So, um, it, it comes out. It, you can suppress things, but it comes out. But, but when I was younger, um, I was very rebellious.

I drank a lot. Like I, the first time I ditched school, I was in sixth grade and we were drinking at my house. I didn't have a lot of supervision for my mom, cuz she was working full time and she also was a different time when parents really didn't supervise their kids as much. And I really could have used supervision, but anyway.

Sure. Yeah. So I just. Yeah, got into a lot of drinking, um, with my friends and the, you know, the crowds that I hung out with that was normal anyway, for middle school, high school. Um, when my mom moved, she moved to kind of a nicer area, um, near the beach and there was. A lot of rich kids there and they drank and did drugs and, you know, lots of that stuff.

So there was house parties, the parents would leave for the weekends and there'd be these huge house parties or even smaller ones, but sometimes like, you know, hundreds of people, but yeah, so I got into a lot of trouble. I didn't really have a curfew. Yeah. I was drinking and driving. Um, just, yeah, I, I became probably more like towards the end of high school and in my twenties, I became very promiscuous.

Um, just kind of looking for that lost love, you know, love and, and affection attention from, from men. You know, it was kind of like, my heart was so walled up. I couldn't offer anything else. I couldn't make myself vulnerable, but you're so needing. That human connection. And yet when your heart's walled off, you can't make that connection.

And so it was, you know, it was made with my body and that was, that was pretty much all I had to offer and that's, it kept me going. And, um, it just, it really was almost, it was over the top and it almost like at an addictive level where it's like, I just couldn't stop. Like, I, I felt bad. And, um, I told my sister recently, like, yeah, I feel like I just lost my soul because we were talking about her kids or her daughter and like premarital sex.

And I wasn't, I wasn't Catholic when I was younger, I was raised Catholic, but I didn't have faith and I wasn't following the faith and stuff, but I really see, um, a reason now not to have premarital sex. I just. Yeah, it, it just doesn't work like from a practical standpoint. So, you know, a lot of what I found out through, you know, my experience of kind of healing and growing up and realizing all the things that had gone wrong in my life was that my life just wasn't working for me.

And that was one of 'em, you know, you just can't, you just can't jump into a physical relationship without having, um, a commitment or having something else there already, because then you, you feel worse. You feel like, do they really love me or do they only love me for my body? You know? And it just, it just ruins your, it ruined my self-esteem.

I mean, of, of all the things that happened. I know the divorce can be really hard on people's self-esteem their identity, things like that. But I think that more than anything else just kind of really shattered me and it was, you know, to a large part, my own doing. And so. Yeah. You know, I, I, I really couldn't stop even though I hated myself all the time for it.

And then I would just do it again. yeah. I mean, I had, it was like this aura, I kind of, you know, had this need for attention and people like it was felt, it was just like, it was front and center, you know, like I literally look across a crowded noisy bar and lock eyes with some guy and know that, okay, we're going home tonight, you know, together.

And so it was, you know, it was very dangerous, very, uh, in, in addition to other like physical risks and stuff that I took, um, when I was younger, cuz I was a real adrenaline junkie, you know, that was kind of, I've always been very physical, but I mean, obviously that was really risky and I. Thank God that I'm here to talk about it.

I guess. Yeah. Seriously. It's it's so interesting. I want you to keep going, but I wanna comment on something here. Uh, the, the anger and marriage thing. I've seen that in my own life, and I've seen that in, in other marriages that I know as well. Um, it's so interesting. I, yeah, I don't, I don't, I can't say I totally understand it.

I, I guess part of the reason I think, and I'm curious, what you think is just when you open yourself up on a heart level, like you said, not just physically, but really be vulnerable to someone. It brings up a lot of imperfections. It brings up a lot of baggage and brokenness that maybe we didn't have to deal with before marriage or before an intimate relationship.

So it's so interesting that I think that that is a trend like marriage seems to cause so many issues to, to surface for anyone. But I think, especially for people like us, I think there's several things at work. And one of 'em is maybe expectations and just what you thought marriage was gonna be. And it's never what, it's what you think it's gonna be.

And mm-hmm, people don't really talk about that. You know, you go to a wedding and everyone's all happy and stuff. And I wanna just, you know, shake 'em and say, oh, it's not what you think right. Like there there's some really good and beautiful parts to it, but it it's just like life it's there's ups and downs.

Right. And I think a lot of people go into marriage feeling. You know, this person's gonna be my savior or this person's gonna make everything right in my life. And that's, like I said, that's part of the expectations is that, you know, this person is my everything and everything that I I've been, you know, lonely, I've been, you know, insecure.

I've been. Whatever broken, forgotten, whatever through the divorce, and this is gonna make everything all right. And it's not, like you said, it's life, life is life, whether you're married or not married. And then the other thing is that it really shows that other person is a reflection of all your faults, because the way that they react to you and what you're doing, um, and it's just like holding up a mirror to yourself and all these things that either you didn't realize were false, or you don't wanna admit, or you don't wanna look at yourself.

And so it kind of shines the light back on you through that other person. And, you know, oftentimes we don't like what we see mm-hmm so it, it makes it very difficult. But then also just, you know, I had a lot of anger and mistrust of men in general. And so, I mean, certainly I think that probably came out in my marriage and, um, Yeah.

Just having to, to really deal with that, with that anger. I mean, I was at one point, like I would cuss a lot in my head and that's something that I worked on, cuz even though I know it's in my head and nobody could hear it, but at the same time, you and I know that what's in your heart or in your thoughts, it, it comes out, it comes out in your, in your actions.

You, you really. Hide who you are or what's what's inside. So yes, I had to work on that because a large part of my marriage, I would just be cussing in my head sure, sure. No. And I think so many of us who come from broken families, like we didn't see a model of what marriage is supposed to look like. We, we saw actually a poor example.

And so when it's our turn, we just feel lost. We're like, how do I do this? Like, there's no manual with it. And maybe we got some guidance here or there, but overall it's almost foreign to us. Whereas someone who comes from an intact family though, I'm sure there's always struggles within marriage. They at least have this example, this positive example that was ingrained in their bones, so to speak.

And I, I think that's a huge, a huge thing that's missing for us. Absolutely. Um, but I think the trust thing. Is really big too beyond just like having an example of marriage, just not trusting people. You know, I think that really comes into play in marriage, but, um, oh, as far as the example of marriages. So it's interesting because you know, my mom was single for about seven years and then she got remarried.

She dated a lot, so there was a little instability there and then she got married and she's, you know, she's in a happy marriage, but my, um, my dad and my stepmom, they were like I said, soulmates. And so I did again, the dichotomy and the, in the finances, but also in the, in the love, because they're, even though my mom has a good relationship, my dad and my stepmom are what I call the one percenters.

Well, my dad passed a year and a half ago, but the one percenters of marriage were they're actually just, you know, completely head over heels in love. Soulmates, whatever, you know, I did have that example from them. And at the same time, it was kind of hard because my stepmom is the one that my dad left our family for

So should I be happy that they have this wonderful joyous marriage? Or should I not? So, I mean, even that caused even that caused some pain and at the same time, trying to celebrate that love and, and to have that as an example. So it was really a double edged sword there, but we did have, you know, some, some good examples.

Okay. No, that makes sense. And that's so confusing. Like, do you look to them as an example or not? Yeah, I, I totally hear you there. Yeah. What else would you add to how you saw the, the breakdown of their marriage affect. I don't know, the, the trust was probably the biggest thing. Like, and, um, well you have, you know, you've talked about loneliness and whatnot, but being able to make friends, male and female relationships were really not good.

And, and so, yeah, so that made, uh, gave me a lot of loneliness throughout my life. Just not having those really good connections, cuz it's one thing if your family separates, but if you have some good friends and good support groups, so, you know, that was the issue with me is that I didn't have any good mentors.

I didn't have any grandparents because they were all gone by the time I was five and I know grandparents can be a great resource for people. Um, we did have one family friend. I think I mentioned I was a latchkey kid when my, my parents divorced and my mom went back to work and I'm walking home from kindergarten by myself and letting myself in.

But most of the time, um, I stopped at our friend's house. So we had some very, very close family, friends, and their house was on the way back. So I was able to stop there and hang out for a while until my sisters got out of school. That was good. But I remember complaining one time to my sister about, you know, well, do you have a, did you have any mentors growing up?

Because I really, I felt like that would've been a huge benefit to me. She says, yeah, I had this person and I had this person. I had, you know, our stepmom who she's a lot closer to. And so she turned to her as a mentor and she had, um, a guy at the horse barn who was a mentor and I'm like, wow. I feel really, um, you know, like I really missed out cuz I didn't have anyone.

So I, you know, turned to writing a lot. I journal and write and all of that, which was. Which was very helpful. Yeah, there just, there wasn't a lot of structure. And then when I was growing up with my mom and then she got remarried and she married a military man mm. So I go from having pretty much zero structure or discipline or anything, and living in a household with a stepdad.

And of course I was angry and I was, you know, rebellious and all of those things and then kind of hit up against his, his personality. And that was scary for me. I saw a couple of. Small incidents, like where he took my step, uh, brother and, you know, shoved him against the wall. And, you know, for me, I was a very, very sensitive kid.

So any like tiny even hints of kind of violence or aggression are just really frightening to me. and so that just really scared me. So then I was, you know, living in this, this household now with a stepdad who I was afraid of for many years, and we're great now, but yeah, it was kind of a shock to my system.

Absolutely. No that that's a lot to deal with. And you mentioned also to me that you struggle with depression for years and just self-esteem issues and oh yeah. The, you know, the depression was pretty much chronic, lifelong, and. You know, it started to really lift in the last two or three years when I've been getting some healing.

And so, you know, there's a lot of things in your personality when you are, when you have trauma or, you know, childhood wounds that you think is who you are like, oh, I'm just a depressed person. And you don't realize, or I just have anxiety or I just a bad person who has no self discipline and I just party too much.

And you don't realize that some of these behaviors or actions, things that you attribute to your personality are actually part of your wound. Um, so I think that's really critical because, you know, I, um, I actually have some family history of mental illness. And so, especially with that going on, I thought, well, I'm just damaged.

I, I have a mental health issue or, you know, I thought I. I was convinced I, uh, was bipolar at one point because I would get very, very depressed sometimes lasting for, you know, a week or maybe longer. And then when I would come out of it, I would feel so good that it almost seemed like, you know, there were these extremes that I was, you know, maybe bipolar.

And, um, I don't know if that's the thing you can grow out. Per se I'm not a mental health expert, but, but I know that my depression was very bad and it's almost completely gone now. So I think your, your body protects you from things to some degree, you know, I don't, I don't know how that all works, but just that it's not, it's not permanent.

Some of these problems that you have, you know, they're not permanent and there are reasons for them, you didn't cause them, you were a victim to some degree of, of what happened to you in your childhood. And, and there is, there is hope for healing. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm no psychologists or neurobiologists either, but I think one of the things that I've learned that has been helpful to understand is that when you go through trauma, like you said, your brain experiences that trauma as if it's ongoing, unless you heal it, unless you process it, unless you kind of file it away, it, it, your brain's almost experiencing that continually throughout your life, cuz it doesn't have a sense of time.

The emotional part of your brain doesn't have a sense of time like we do in other parts of our brains. And so, um, that's just continuing on. So it makes sense. Again, there's other, there's many factors that go into chronic depression. I don't wanna simplify this too much. It makes sense that if, you know, we went through trauma and we never dealt with it, we never healed that we would continue feeling the way we did maybe when we were younger, when we went through the trauma immediately after the trauma.

So that makes sense to me that you experienced that in your story. And I'm so hopeful for all of the younger generation that has resources like restored and life giving wounds, because, you know, I didn't have that. And the fact that it's the voice of the children, you know, of divorce actually, and being able to share your stories and to be seen and heard.

And, um, I think that's amazing. So one of the problems that, so I just turned 55 and literally have just started to kind of get healing in the last 3, 4, 5 years. So I've lived with this for a very long time. And one of the things is that I always thought, what is, you know, what's wrong with me? Like my sisters, don't talk about it.

As being in the forefront of their life or having problems ongoing, although I can look at the relationships and lives and think, yes, they do, but Hmm. You know, as far as in their minds, they, they don't think they weren't thinking about it as much as I was. And it was, you know, I was always realizing that somehow the divorce was affecting me, although I didn't quite know how.

And so it was a terrible feeling, feeling like, you know, what is wrong with me? Like, I'm the only one that feels this in this world. And I didn't have, you know, your resource or no knew about you before. And, um, it was very lonely and isolating and I was, you know, very hard on myself because it's like, okay, there's something wrong with me.

And then when I became. Re immersed in the Catholic faith, they talk aloud about forgiveness. And so then it, I started working on forgiveness, which was great. It's a wonderful, uh, virtue at the same time, I thought, what is wrong with me that I'm still thinking about this divorce? Is it that I don't have enough forgiveness for my parents?

And I, you know, I'm just a bad person because I can't forgive. And so that also was kind of a double edged sword as. Okay. I wanna forgive, but clearly I had a lot of wounds that hadn't been addressed, like you said, totally. And I relate to the mental illness thing as well. That runs in my family. My dad deals with it.

It's just such a difficult thing. And, uh, you, you know that when you said basically that we believe that our condition is our identity and we confuse that often, and one counselor that came on the show said, uh, those things that you feel, the brokenness that you feel, it's really just how you're doing.

It's not who you are. And it's important to remember, especially to anyone listening right now who maybe you're dealing with anxiety, depression, loneliness, any other range of issues, and you confuse that condition as your identity, but that's not the case. Absolutely. Yeah. And then, you know, the other thing is.

You know, I was very detached a lot. Like I just kind of felt like I was going through the motions in life. You know, I also really didn't care sometimes if I lived or died, I think that's part of the reason why I took a lot of risks and part of it was just because I'm physical. But, um, I would remember sometimes I, I would get mad and I would drive without a seatbelt or I just, I was never suicidal.

I know we talked about that. There's a lot of people, uh, children of divorce who are suicidal and I wasn't that, but at the same time, I took a lot of risks, almost like tempting death, you know, and yeah, and really getting into like a victim mentality. I know that some of it was a little bit maybe self-fulfilling and that you can get into this mentality and then that's all you see is, you know, everything that everybody does to you.

It's, you're the victim and, and that's, you know, that's not healthy, but at the same time, I really was. I think because I maybe didn't have strong boundaries and it's almost like total strangers could see my vulnerability or could see that. And so, you know, not just getting in that mentality, but having actually becoming somewhat of a victim in certain situations.

Right. Yeah. So you thought you were the only common denominator. Wow. So interesting. I, I wanna go back to something you said before you mentioned that that writing was one of the ways that you coped with the pain and even it was even healing for you. What were some other things that were healing for you, uh, following the breakdown in your family?

Well, um, I've always been really big on exercise and, um, outdoor activities and things like that. So I ran cross country for a while. I surfed a lot. I loved, I loved swimming in the ocean because. I love nature. And, and then just also the, the challenge of it and the fun of that. So I got into surfing when I was young.

Yeah. I've, you know, for my mental health exercise has always been huge. And then I was big into horses. My family was, and so I did some, and it also suited my need for speed and all of that. So I did what was called three day eventing, the third. So there's, um, you know, stadium jumping and there's dressage.

And then there's the third element, which is the speed and these huge obstacles. So it was timed and they timed you and ya. So they took points away for a few. You know, hit the op if the horse hit the obstacle or, you know, whatever. And so really suited my, uh, adrenaline needs. That was really fun, but yeah, and I loved to dance.

I was, uh, like, like a bars or clubs or whatever, but I just, I was a total dance aholic. And, um, that was a way for me to blow off steam, things like that. Just being outdoors, being physical, writing journaling, and. I wrote, you know, I've written quite a bit of few poems now, but before I was writing and I didn't know quite what they were, I thought they were songs.

They might be poems. I don't really know. And it took a long time. I, you know, probably in my forties when I took my first poetry class, and that was really amazing because all these little chicken scratches that I had all over everywhere in a million different journals, I was able to kind of make sense of, of an art form to apply them to.

And, and it was really amazing. And I, I learned something too about form poetry, which I thought, because I always wanted my freedom and I was that type of person who, you know, never wanted to have too much structure mm-hmm . And I found out for one thing for mental health structure is just really, really important.

And the people who most need it are the people who fight it the most as far as having structure in their lives. So it's really, really interesting. But as far as the poetry goes, there's something called form poems where they, you know, have specific rhyme schemes or syllables, uh, et cetera to follow. And I thought, well, that sounds too restricting.

But once I started doing it, I really saw the freedom within the boundaries and restrictions, which is also, I guess, kind of a metaphor for my life. You know, mm-hmm, because you can have, you know, when you have a structure to lean on, you can have a lot of freedom in that. And I think that's kind of what the Catholicism that I reengaged with does for me too.

It just, it gives me that kind of a moral structure or a guideline for living that I really was lacking. And as much as I thought, I. I just valued my freedom. I feel more free now having that structure. That's incredible. Yeah. So, you know, going back to the church was really huge for me. Yeah. How, how, in particular, I'm curious, like reengaging that faith, cuz uh, you know, there's a lot of people listening right now and people out in our culture in general who have, you know, real issues with, uh, religion and they just don't want anything to do with God.

And they see it as restricting and you're saying, no, it's actually freeing. I was, I was an atheist. My dad became atheist after the divorce and you know, I was my family. We were raised pro-choice. You know, you say the word God to me and I would cringe, like it's, you know, poison mm-hmm . I mean, that's how, that's how far on the spectrum of that I was, and then I just, I was always searching for something I just needed.

I knew I needed something in my life and wanted something more. And I just, I really didn't know what, and I was, you know, just trying to reach out, like, try on the faith kind of, and, you know, engage a little or talk to people of faith. And it didn't, you know, it's like a jacket that doesn't quite fit, right?

Like for many years I was like trying to, you know, make it fit. Like it was uncomfortable. It wasn't natural. And I just, one of the things, like I said, like before I even started listening to what the church was teaching, I had already learned what was working and what wasn't working in my life and already kind of.

Formed my own opinions about that. And then when I went back to the Catholic church, I realized that they were saying a lot of the things, not like I've discovered this because obviously it's 2000 years old. But, um, but they were saying a lot of things that I had already through trial and error and a lot of error and a lot of hardship had figured out for myself in my life, what works.

Yeah. And, and just the idea of, you know, living a moral life, having, I, I think where the freedom comes in the most is just the freedom that you feel, um, which really maybe at its core is peace. Like a, a, a clean conscience, something you don't, we're not walking around thinking, you know, that you, you have all this guilt on your back though.

You know, all of us have made mistakes and like we've talked about we're all hypocrites in some way. Yeah. I, I think, I think that's where a lot of the, the peace and the freedom comes from. It's just like, there, there is something too, uh, living a good life living life the right way, instead of just doing whatever you want.

There's so much emptiness in that, that, that I've experienced. And I know you have too. Yeah, for me, it was the piece of, of self control where I could, you know, when you don't have self control, you're. not really making your own choices. You're making choices out of either a pain or an addiction or something else.

But when you develop more self control, you're making more free choices and you just, you feel more free. Like you're actually choosing it and you're not just being run by some pre-programmed thing that something you're running away from or running to, or. You know, trying to find a magic pill for your life.

So, no, that's so good that self-mastery leads to freedom. I, I love that you obviously are very dedicated to continuing to heal and to grow, but you've made a lot of progress and it's inspiring to, to look at you and look at your life. And so, uh, yeah, I'm just curious, how is your life different now contrast that if you would, for us start with friends and support.

So, I mean, it used to be a chore trying to make friends. Like, I really didn't even know how to make friends. And when you, when you get out of like a college environment or, you know, some place where it's really easy to meet people, and I sometimes when you're a parent, you can make friends through your kids, but I had a kid who wasn't very social, so it kind of blew that for me.

sure. And so. You know, you don't realize sometimes how hard it is cuz when you're younger, it just seems kind of natural. You know, you're either on a sports team together or you go to school together or whatever and it just happens. And then when you become adults, so, you know, I moved here and it was actually really good for me to make a move as an adult, cuz then I had to work harder at it.

And you know, I'm on the internet Googling how to make friends, how to be a good friend, which sounds really absurd, but it's pretty cool. They had some good advice on there. So, but now that I've done some healing, even in the last two, three years, things just really started to fall into place. So naturally like, like effortless, completely effortless.

I'm just astounded. I had struggled so much and that it's now so effortless. It just kind of blows my mind. So, so that's in, you know, in the area of my marriage, you know, I had a very contentious marriage for probably 17 of the now 20 years. And we had some huge healing in our marriage. I would say miraculous, you know, that happened through my healing.

So the thing is, people always say, well, you can't change someone. You can't change. You know, you can't change the other person and that's true. But the thing you can do is change yourself and. A lot of times in a marriage, you're like, well, I'm not the problem. They're the problem. Why, why am I gonna go to therapy?

You know, the thing is everybody has some sort of childhood wound, not just adult children of divorce. Everybody does, you know, so I went to therapy and worked on myself and then you come back and you're behaving slightly different. You're just, you're healing. You're, you know, you're a different person and people have no.

But to react to that because we react off of each other and what we're giving each other mm-hmm . And I had started learning boundaries without even really having a name for that. It was just, you know, kind of speaking my mind and not, not holding things in and just all sorts of stuff, but, you know, my husband completely changed.

He did like 180 degree turn at one point, like was a completely different person. Wow. I mean, it was shocking to me from my healing. He, he shifted and changed as well. And we, you know, our marriage has improved tremendously. I'm also. More of a forgiving person. I used to hold grudges. Like for years I could hold a grudge.

I was the, I was the queen of grudges and , you know, making myself a victim. So I've lost that victim mentality and grudges and just, yeah, the depression's gone. I just have a lot more joy and beautiful. And I'm sure there's so much more that we could talk about when it comes to, to that. I, I did wanna go back to something you said before, uh, your depression, your, your, uh, seemingly chronic depression yeah.

Was just healed. Like, how did you do that? I, I think a lot of people listening right now are like, whoa, that's incredible. What happened there? Going into that a little bit more, if you would. Well, some of it's through therapy. I, I honestly think a large part of it was in healing of my marriage too, because that was causing me a lot of distress.

So. I'd say that's probably the biggest part of it. And the other thing is in, you know, when we talked about self discipline or self mastery, like trying to discipline my thoughts, for instance, if I would start going to a dark place, I mean, I would literally like, just stop myself and say, no, no, and you know, or whatever Satan be gone, whatever you have to tell yourself.

And I would just, I would stop that spiral of negative thoughts because that's just, it can really take a hold of you so easily. Um, so I, I really leaned on, on the church and the faith a lot for that to. To just kind of, yeah. Control my thoughts. Yeah. Not be a victim and it's not just not, it's not just a matter of like positive thinking.

You know, you really have to find the joy. Like in, in my marriage, there was a lot wrong and I had to learn how to trust all over again, trust my husband. And it wasn't just, I didn't have trust from being a child of divorce, which was there, but I also didn't trust him because he didn't fight fair. He wouldn't stay in the room and talk.

He would walk away from me. There was all sorts of very immature and harmful behavior that was going on. So when we were healing, like when he did his 180 turnaround, you know, he has a thing in business where it's like trust, but verify. And so it was kind of like that. I was like, well, when's the other shoe gonna drop?

When's he gonna change back like the Jacqueline hide to how he was or who he was and like, how can, how can someone change that radically? So it really took at least a year, maybe a little longer, but you know, at least a, a good year before I thought, wow, this is, this is really taking hold. He, this is real.

But in the meantime, like all these thoughts from the past would come up because like I said, I had lived a long, long time in a very bad marriage and I had to fight those thought. All the time and say, no, I'm, you know, I'm moving forward. I can, I can see with my eyes what's happening now. I can let the past go.

You know? And I don't need my mind to go there and remind me how bad it was, you know, mm-hmm cause it's cuz it's a new day and we're, and we're moving forward and I'm, I'm forgiving and I'm verifying that, you know, his actions are, are matching up with what he's saying and what I'm seeing. And. That was really, really difficult to try to kind of build trust where there was none.

Yeah. Not only that, but there, there was harm and there was yeah. All sorts of issues while that's incredible. I wanna go back and touch on relationships that it's appropriate that we're here now because I think something that's. So moving in your story, um, that, that you've explained to me is that, uh, a lot of.

The brokenness in your past was sexual in nature. Like you had a lot of sexual brokenness, but you've also found healing through your own sexuality, which is really beautiful in God's plan for sexuality, which is just amazing. You obviously grew up, you know, with the sexual revolution and there were just so there's so much confusion and so much misunderstanding, you know, on one end of the spectrum, there were people who were just living out their sexuality without any sort of limits or control.

And then on the other end, there were people who were, uh, very repressive and they looked down on sexuality. I thought it was bad and dirty and all this. So neither of those are right for anyone's listening, who like be confused. There is a middle ground and, uh, sex is good and beautiful, but it needs to be in its proper place.

Like you said so well before Sandy. Um, but yeah, if you would touch on that a little bit of how, yeah, just how that's played out in your own life and having made those mistakes and then now, uh, having found healing, especially in your marriage. Yeah. Well obviously, like I said before, you know, the. and then I don't wanna say like out of wedlock sex, but it was really just, you know, a sex where people were using each other and that kind of promiscuous sex was just so damaging.

So when I got married and we were having lots of problems also, and my husband too, I don't know, I think has some issues with feelings of being unloved or, you know, not having enough love. He needs a lot of, a lot of reassurance and a lot of attention. And anyways, so when we were having marital problems, you know, he was saying, well, everything's great.

Everything's great. Except for this, you know, we just need to work on this one point part of our marriage. And like I've said to other people, you know, you can't have. A hundred percent wonderful marriage over here, and then you have a bad sex life. It's like they go hand in hand. So, you know, he just wasn't able to see what I was seeing or understand, you know, kind of how bad our marriage was and that I was reacting to that.

Like, you know, how can I be attracted or be motivated to be with this person physically when they're treating me so badly, you. So the first therapy that we ever went to was a sex therapist. wow. And it was, it felt so forced. I really felt like I was being dragged there because I knew that there was more issues underneath and mm-hmm I thought this was kind of ridiculous, but I went, so that was interesting, but it didn't, it didn't ultimately help.

Okay. Yep. Yeah. Anyway, so, so when we were, when we finally went back to marriage therapy, I'd say, you know, maybe it was two, three years ago, and even that didn't help so much, but I did start to realize that I, I have an opinion about marriage, that, you know, how the sex goes is an indication of how the marriage is going.

You know, and, and I know a lot of people when my sisters and I started talking about this and she started talking to her friends, you know, there's quite a few people in married who have sex once a month. Or less. And it's, it's pretty interesting, but part of it with me is that I didn't understand how important it was.

Like I read this book called for women only, and it talks about the sexual needs of men, not just as a physical outlet, but how it really is part of their identity and their, their self-esteem, their confidence and everything wrapped up to it. And, you know, because I was in the habit of using men and them using me, you know, all I saw was.

Okay. It's just this physical part. Mm-hmm and it seemed kind of selfish. And I, especially cuz women usually don't have as much of a sex drive, so it just seemed kind of selfish on their part. And I had this, you know, idea of who men were and their sexuality, which really I kind of got enlightened by this book anyway.

Um, so yeah, we started, um, the, the funny thing is the therapist was trying to, you know, force us to kind of be more physical and, you know, let's draw, draw, um, days from a, a hat and we're gonna decide, and we're gonna schedule it and we're gonna do all this. And then at the time our relationship was so bad that that didn't really work out so well either mm-hmm but, um, it just, it really seemed like all the things that should have worked, you know, it's like going to therapy and going to a sex therapist and.

You know, let's have dates and let's, you know, pull names of the days of the week out of a hat and do all this. And, and it was just all really, really forced until we healed our relationship on a deeper level. You know, I do know that I, now I'm so much more, um, conscious of his needs sexually. Like I don't, I don't know how to say it.

Like I just, instead of like, oh, I have to do this duty, which sometimes, you know, wives feel it's more like, well, no, this is critical to him and his identity and his wellbeing. And so it's kind of, I've really shifted in my thinking about it. You know, if you love somebody and you're available to them, you know, emotionally and physically in marriage, you should be as well.

So, um, it's. . Yeah, I don't, I don't know what to say about that, but we, we definitely healed and I thought, I thought this is kind of my, my burden, because I had been so reckless with my body and my sexuality as a young person, I thought, you know, in the Catholic faith, a lot of times you talk about how your wound is your, is your path to healing or to salvation, or, you know, Absolut, things like that.

And so, so that's kind of how I looked at it. I'm like, we're really struggling in this area. You know, I don't know if it was caused by my past life or his past life or whatever, cuz he had some sexual sin in his first marriage, but whatever it is, this. Potentially the path forward. And so I kind of had to have a radical change in thought on that whole topic.

And I know people don't talk about that much either in marriage. So it's, it's probably an interesting, interesting topic. I'm glad you're talking about, because I think this needs to be said a lot of this stuff needs to be said. And what I've noticed too, in marriage is that, uh, from the women women's point of view, like what makes her want to have sex is emotional intimacy typically, right?

Yes. And for a man it's like, we just wanna have sex because we just wanna have sex. And that leads to emotional intimacy for us. Like we feel close to our wives because of that. So , someone's gotta start that, like the man has to make the effort to be emotionally intimate and then the, and the wife maybe perhaps needs to be a little bit more, not aggressive, but assertive.

You know, understanding, like you said, that, you know, her husband needs to be loved in this way, cuz so many men that sort of love language, physical touch and, and it's a team sport, right? It's not just one or the other. We both get on it together. Right. But I have noticed that, but what you're saying, so the men still do need, the emotional intimacy is just totally, it's just in a different order.

So, you know, it's definitely there and you know, I know that, you know, our sex life is not strained. You know, I realize how much. Yeah, actual intimacy. He feels from having, you know, that physical connection. And so there's definitely an emotional element to it for men as well. You know, it's a, they, they need to feel loved.

They need to feel attractive. They need to feel valued. I mean, it's just, you know, it's not just all about this physical thing. There's, there's a lot more to it emotionally. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I probably didn't say that as well as I could have. Like, what I was trying to say is like for the wives, emotional intimacy often leads to them wanting, having sex for men having sex alt often leads to them, wanting to be emotionally intimate with, uh, with their wives.

That's what I was trying to say. yes. Yes. So good. Was anything else that you would add on how, uh, the divorce affected. Your relationships, you touched on so many things already, but I just wanted to give you an opportunity to say any final thoughts on how, um, that had affected your relationships and even your marriage.

The one thing that I know is that I was very hopeless. A lot of times growing up I had was very cynical. I, I really didn't see any hope for my life. You know, cuz like we talked about earlier, I felt like this was my personality and all these faults I had and all, all these, you know, addictive behaviors and all the things that I couldn't change about myself for so many years.

And I just, I was really stuck in hopelessness. That's that's huge because it colors your whole life. You know, whether you have hope or don't have hope that you can change or things can be better, you know, because without hope what is there really? I don't know. yeah. Yeah. It was, it was big. I mean, I just, I'm just so grateful that.

I've had some healing that I've found the church that I found. Some things that work for me, cuz again, it was just, you know, it was getting from a practical point. Like my life's not working. I need to do something. I need something. Yeah. I don't know what it is. I definitely need something because this just can't continue the way it is.

It's it just, it wasn't workable. I mean, I know that sounds kind of like a practical way of thinking, but like really in practicality, like my life wasn't working. Absolutely. And, uh, yeah. That's where we live life in the practical , you know, they're like the abstract is important, but I I'm totally with you.

There it's like that. That's what really led me to change was just the emptiness that I felt. I was like, I don't wanna feel this way. I wanna be happy. Yeah. You kind of, kind of hit rock bottom or, you know, you make, you make a change, no matter how hard it is or whatever, you find a way to make a change because you realize that you deserve more and life has more to offer.

You wanna be a part of that, whatever that, whatever that life is, that's waiting for you. Yeah. And that could be so hard to believe when you're in the midst of like depression or just hopelessness and you're struggling and you feel broken. It's hard to believe, like there's even light at the end of the tunnel.

That life can be any different because often, like you said, we just fall into these cycles where maybe we maybe stop the reckless behavior for a little bit, but we kind of know in our bones, it's like, well, I'll be back soon. I'll be back to the drinking to sleeping around, to doing, you know, risky things to feel alive.

And, um, but, but you actually can have sustained change. Life can be better and different. And that's one of the things I love about your story. Sandy is, you know, you, you turn things around so much in your life by God's grace. Of course. I know you would say that, but yes, it, it's just amazing. And so, yeah, I, I'm so grateful for you.

Being here, uh, coming on the show, doing this long interview and just opening your heart to, to me and to everyone who's listening. I know it's gonna help so many people, if people wanna get in touch with you, how do they do that? Yeah, they can email me at Sandra Howlet, 25, icloud.com, a N D H O w L E T T five.

icloud.com. I know I have one blog that's coming out on life, giving wounds website and hopefully more so they'll be able to see some of my writing on there. Awesome. And I know you've written for us too, so we'll make sure to throw that into the show notes. If anyone wants more from, from Sandy. Thank you so much, Sandy.

Again, I just wanna give you the last word. What, what encouragement would you give to, to a young person listening right now who does feel very broken? Who feels stuck in life? Uh, because of the trauma they've been through in their own family. What, what words of encouragement would you give to them? I would just say never, ever, ever, ever give up.

that's all I can say that things can be better. Things will be better. Just figure out what you need to do to help your own healing. It doesn't happen on its own. You have to work hard. You have to work hard at relationships at marriages at healing. Healing's hard, it's vulnerable, you know, it's not, it's not easy.

People like to just. Think that they can forget things and move on, but you know, like, you know, in my story, if there's stuff there, you don't just move on, you have to deal with it and then you can move on. So, you know, take that. Big jump and, and deal with the hard stuff. And then, you know, hopefully it'll become less and less hard and you can have a beautiful life.

One thing that stuck with me that Sandy touched on is that feeling of hopelessness. I think we all face it, especially those of us who come from broken families. I know I've dealt with it personally and it's truly debilitating. And so when we feel that way, when you feel that. Just remember that there is always hope.

There's always hope, especially when things feel impossibly hopeless. Remember that night is darkest just before the Dawn. So hang in there. It can get better. In fact, if you work to heal and grow yourself like Sandy did, you will get better. You won't be able to avoid suffering in your life, but you will be better able to handle them.

If you heal and grow and you'll feel freer, you feel happier and you'll feel whole again. And I remember the words of GK Chesterton, who said hope, means hoping when everything. Seems hopeless. A question for you to think about is what's the simplest most basic thing that you can do where you are right now in life to begin or continue healing and growing.

Just one thing doesn't need to be huge. In fact, it's more important than you just take action, even if it's really small than doing something monumental. Because if we never act our lives, won't get better. We won't get better. So we need to take action. We have to put the work in. So what's the simplest most basic thing that you can do right now, where you are to begin or continue healing and growing.

One simple thing that we recommend is sharing your story. One of the benefits of sharing your story, that it's actually healing on a neuro biological level, it makes your brain healthier. And studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their. Are less depressed.

They're less anxious, they're healthier, they're happier. And if you share that story, either in writing or through talking to someone with someone else, that's additionally healing for your brain on a neurobiologic level, it makes you more whole, and by sharing your story, also, you give guidance and hope to people who may be going through the same things that you are, or you did in the past.

And so if you wanna share your story in written form, you can do that. Go to restored ministry.com/story. Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/story on there. You'll fill out a form. It'll guide you in telling a concise version of your story. It'll take a little bit of time to do that, and then we'll turn it into an anonymous blog article.

And so we'd love to hear your story. Go ahead and share your story today@restoredministry.com slash story, the resources mentioned are on the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 47. Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful. Please share this podcast with someone, you know, who could use and always.

You are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#046: Becoming a Great Parent: Learning from Your Parents’ Virtues and Vices | Miranda Henkel

What did you learn about parenting from your parents that you want to repeat with your kids? What do you not want to repeat?

The answers to those questions are extremely valuable in helping you become the best parent you can be. But sadly, most of us don’t dig deep enough. Today, we do by talking about:

• Our experiences as new parents with babies who haven’t been born yet

• Our fears about becoming parents

• Answer: Do we feel more confident about marriage or parenting?

• 6 things kids need from their parents and how to fill those needs

• Reflect on lessons learned from our parents, good and bad, and how we want to parent

Has Restored helped you? Let us know how.

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Why Your Family of Origin Impacts Your Life More Than Anything Else

• Contact Miranda at Miranda@RestoredMinistry.com

• Contact Joey at Joey@RestoredMinistry.com

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As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

What did you learn about parenting from your parents that you wanna repeat with your kids? What do you not wanna repeat? Those are important questions that sadly we don't really think about often. We don't really talk about much, but the answers. Are extremely valuable. It's something I've been reflecting on lately because in no time, my wife, Bridget, and I will be welcoming our baby girl into the world.

And I'm so excited. Can't wait to meet her. Can't wait to love on her. But as someone who comes from a broken family, becoming a dad, brings out a lot of fears and insecurities. And maybe because I don't wanna make the same mistakes that I saw on my parents make. And I know I'm not alone in feeling that we know that young people from broken families feel the same when it comes to becoming a mom or a dad.

So we wanted to do a podcast episode on this topic from the perspective of two new parents. And so I'm joined by Miranda. One of our team members at restored, who's been on the podcast before you met, recognize her, her husband, Steven, and her are expecting a baby girl as well. It's super exciting, really happy for them.

And so we thought it'd be helpful to share our experience of becoming parents to give you some hope that you can do it too, that you're capable of doing it. And hopefully even give some advice based on the lessons that we've learned. And so what you're gonna hear in this episode, we're gonna share our experiences as new parents, with babies who actually haven't been born yet.

We'll talk about our fears about becoming parents. And we are kind of an interesting question. Do we feel more confident about marriage or about parenting? We discuss the six things that kids need from their parents and how to fill those needs. And then we reflect on lessons that we've learned from our parents, the good and the bad and how we wanna parent our kids in the future.

And if you're not a parent, I want you to know that this episode is still for you. This is not just for parents or for new parents, but really anyone who hopes to be a parent one day, or maybe anyone who's really struggling to believe that they could be a good parent one day because of what they come from.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 46 today. I'm joined by one of our awesome team members here at restored Miranda.

Henkel. You might know her by Miranda Rodriguez. That's her maiden name? Miranda was born in Carus, Venezuela. Although she spent most of her childhood in North Carolina when she was 10, her family moved back to Venezuela where her life was changed forever. When her parents divorced a year later, shortly after she and her younger sister moved with her mother back to the United States and settled in Charleston, South Carolina Miranda graduated from Clemson university in 2015, moved back to Charleston where she met her husband and married him in 2020.

They now reside in Florida where her husband is stationed with the us Navy. She now works for ReSTOR to help other children of divorce heal and grow Miranda, enjoys the beach beer, trying to understand poetry and making fun of her husband. Before we dive into this conversation. I just wanna say that we're pretty raw and real in this conversation about our experiences as children and especially the way that our parents treated us and just wanna make it clear.

We don't wanna hurt them. In fact, Miranda. And I agreed that we usually go out of our way to protect our parents even perhaps to a fault. And so just wanna be super clear that we're not having this conversation to demonize our parents or any parents out there, but rather to, to learn from their good qualities, their virtues and their vices, their bad qualities, so that we can become the best parents that we can be.

And so, as you'll hear in the conversation, though, this conversation is pretty honest and vulnerable. We try to keep it very constructive and helpful in talking about this stuff. I hope it's beneficial to you, but please know that we're not here to make our parents look bad or to demonize them in any way.

And if this is helpful, we might continue doing this as our children grow up. As Miranda's little girl grows up and as my little girl grows up, this is a very important conversation. Here it is

Miranda. Good to have you back. Thanks, Joey. It's good to be here. How are you doing? How's your pregnancy going? I, I know, uh, we talk from time to time, but yeah. How are things going? They are going better. The first trimester was really tough but it's gotten second trimester has been a lot easier, which I'm really, really grateful for.

I, I think I was caught off guard with the difficulty of pregnancy. Like you kind of hear about the different symptoms and what different women experience. Um, so it wasn't like a, it shouldn't have been a huge shock, but I think sure when you're going through it. it's just different. And I read this piece that kind of described it as like a moral bootcamp and that really resonated with me because you kind of, you do like start to learn a lot about self sacrifice, like continually putting the needs of someone else above yours.

Yeah. It's not, it's not easy. Um, and it, it definitely is kind of a stripping of things you maybe thought were important or like valued a whole lot for me, things like productivity, you know, making sure I was getting certain amount of stuff done during the day. And like things like, you know, what you weigh and you know, how much you're working out, like all that kind of changes.

And it's really important, you know, for you to. Like to be more cautious, I guess, like in terms of, you know, getting more sleep and eating well and not pushing yourself too hard physically, but letting go of those things has been harder than I, I thought, because I think more of my worth was attached to them than I realized.

Hmm. It's been, yeah, just like a humbling experience. Very, I think kind of purifying of, okay. Like these are things that I kind of thought that made me valuable and made me important and made me feel good about myself and now I don't have them or I have them, you know, to a lesser extent. So now what, and so, yeah, it's definitely been, and I think too, there are certain things in our culture that affect that mindset because, you know, beauty and, and health and all these things are really, really.

Valued. And so when you feel like you're falling short, because you're physically in kind of a different state than most people, it's just, yeah. It's like, wow. Like, you know, where is my place in society now? Hmm. And so it's just been a kind of interesting experience and I am starting to see the value in it.

Um, I'm starting to see like, okay. Like it, it is important to grow in virtue as you're getting ready to become a parent. And just in general, like, that's, that's just a good thing to do to grow as a person mm-hmm . Um, but especially as a mom, like, you know, you, you want to be selfless. And so all of this stuff is kind of preparing you for that, but yeah, it's, it's hard and, um, totally.

So, yeah, so it's overall, I'm doing well, and I'm definitely grateful that some of the really hard stuff from the first trimester has. Has gotten better. So. I'm really thankful for that. Um, but yeah, it's definitely kind of been an interesting, interesting four months. Yeah. So it's not just changes physically.

There's a lot of other, a lot of other things going on, um, inside you, which is good. That that's beautiful. It's so good to be challenged and to be growing like one of my greatest fears in life is just being complacent and comfortable and, you know, I definitely have to fight that frequently because it's just so easy in our world to become complacent and comfortable.

But, um, it's so good when you experience discomfort. I think because it, it often is maybe not always, but it often is the sun that you're growing something good is happening. So I'm glad to hear that. I mean, it's, uh, I'm sure not fun in the moment, but I think you'll look up and sounds like you already are and see.

Okay. I've made some progress. Yeah, no, I definitely think that, like you said, discomfort is kind of needed for growth. So it's just embracing the discomfort. Totally, totally. And I've heard that a lot about the first trimester and that's what Bridget experienced as well. So she was pretty sick during the first trimester.

We had a first pregnancy as you know, and that was actually worse in the first trimester, uh, for her like a lot of nausea and other things going on. And then, um, we had a miscarriage, which people I've said on the show before, and then, um, this pregnancy, so this is our second and things were a little bit better in the first trimester from my point of view, but maybe she was a different story, but it's uh, yeah.

Then second trimester got a lot better and now we're in the third and baby's just getting big and it's just getting more uncomfortable for her, but she feels pretty good, which is. Yeah, that's awesome. I wanna go back to some, you said quickly, which is just, I think so many of us attribute our value to some characteristic of ourselves, right?

Like growing up, I was athletic, like, like my whole family is, and I was never, you know, the greatest athlete didn't go pro in anything. I didn't go D one or anything like that, but I was a good athlete for, for where I was. And after, you know, I played a year of baseball in college and then after. Um, no, you know, sports aside from, you know, just messing around with friends or intermural sports in college.

And, um, it was a big change for me, cuz I was like, okay, I literally, that was such a big part of my identity and then it's gone and you know, I was used to being like the captain on the team and used to being good at sports. And then now I'm not really kind of in that environment at all. So it does challenge you to kind of redefine your identity, um, and challenges you to, uh, realize that maybe those things that I think are so important, aren't actually as important as I thought, right?

Yeah, no, that's totally a hundred percent true. And even the things that everyone else thinks are so important, maybe aren't that important so it's like totally. Yeah, it definitely it's one of those things that I don't think you would come to you, you may like intellectually understand, but until you have to kinda live without it.

You don't really face. You don't really confront that reality. Totally. And I think you, ladies face so much pressure from society to be perfect, to be smart and sexy and successful and all these things. And, uh, I think there is, yeah. When, when you're pregnant, obviously there's so many things that are changing.

Like you said, you're not able to do the things that you normally did, so you don't really fit that mold in the same way that maybe you once did. Um, and, uh, yeah, that can be really challenging, especially like I'm saying to someone who got a lot of their value, like you mentioned from maybe the way that they look or the things they were able to do, uh, physically like sports and all that stuff.

So it is, it is a big change. So I don't envy you. I'm glad, uh, things are going well. Yeah, and I'm definitely feeling better. So I'm really grateful for that. That's great. I wanted to ask, how do you feel about being a mom? Um, I'm definitely daunted. Um, I think just the level of self sacrifice that is clearly necessary, um, is something that is escapes me, you know, just, I don't, I can't, it's hard to fathom that level of just dying self.

And I do. I mean, I, I, it seems like it's something natural. It just because so many moms seem to embody that, um, it does seem like to a degree. Yeah, there it is kind of innate, so I'm like really like, okay, , we'll see, but I am intimidated by, by how much you really have to die to self and learn to. Yeah, put someone else first and I don't think it was, I, I remember so clearly having a conversation before I knew right before I knew I was pregnant with a friend and I was like, I had been reading mother Teresa.

I was like, yeah, like I really just want to give myself to something, you know, the, and I just thought it was so beautiful the way that she just totally gave herself for this ministry, you know, of helping the lepers in Calta and serving them. And I was, you know, I felt that longing and then like a month later or less, I, it started and, um, I didn't realize how attached I was to kind of my single, even though I wasn't single anymore, but you know, just the idea of like being able to do kind of whatever you want whenever you want.

And. yeah, like that independence, that freedom, that status almost of mm-hmm , you know, you're young and you're untethered all that stuff. And I did not realize how attached I was to those things until I started confronting the idea of motherhood. So overall. Wow. Yeah. It's a little like overwhelming, but, but I'm also hopeful, you know, that when the baby comes, there's gonna be more of a, it like just falling into place, you know, it just seems like so many moms.

I talk to just talk about the joy and the, I guess like sense of satisfaction that they get from, from motherhood. So it does seem like there's a lot of goodness there. It's just, I think when you haven't had a kid yet, mm-hmm , uh, even though you're, you know, even though I'm, I'm pregnant, It doesn't sink in the same way yet.

Totally. Yeah. We'll have to have this conversation again after our baby arrives and your baby arrives. Yes . So I'm sure it'll be a different conversation at that point. No, that, that makes so much sense. Like it's kind of the intimidation factor and I think. Coming from, you know, a broken home play, plays a role in this to, I thinking about kind of what I'm, uh, feeling about being a dad, a new dad, I would say I'm excited.

It's kind of surreal at the same time. It's like, wow. Like I have a baby, like that is unreal. Like how did this happen? yeah. And, uh, and yeah, just like you said, kind of overwhelming. Uh, but at the same time I feel ready. And I think part of the reason for that it may be kind of odd, but part of the reason for that is that, uh, in, in a way I've kind of played that parent role for my siblings, um, at different points in life.

And so it's kind of odd, but I do feel a little bit more confident about parenting than I did or do even about marriage . And so again, I, I think that experience I've had in the past, uh, does, does play a role cuz I'm. Number two of six, we have a big family. Mm-hmm so I, you know, at times when dad wasn't around, I just kind of assumed that role of being father in a way to, to my siblings.

So, yeah, kind of interesting. Um, I was telling someone about that lately and I don't know it is. Can you relate to that at all? About being more confident, maybe about parenting than about marriage? I would say. Yeah. Like I, I don't feel the same acute fear that I feel about marriage. Like I think with marriage, it was, it was really scary.

It was really almost painful in a way to think about cuz you think about all the ways it could go wrong and I don't feel that way with parenting. Um, I don't have that same phobia almost if you wanna call it that mm-hmm so I do feel in that regard a little bit more equipped. I do think our experiences were different because like you said, you're, you know, number two of six.

So you had several younger siblings that. You know, you really stepped up and had to kind, I take care of. And so you are more comfortable in that caretaker role. I think something I regret from yeah, like the divorce and, and how it all went down is that I do think I kind of neglected my little sister.

Like I was so caught up in just what I was feeling and how to cope and almost like isolated myself a little bit. And I do think Christina got, you know, she just, I think she got neglected a little bit, at least, you know, maybe not by my parents, but I feel like I could have been a better sister to her if I hadn't been kind of.

Dealing with certain emotional difficulties. So I don't think I'm, I don't think I feel the same level of confidence that you do. Um, because I kind of remember that experience and I wish I had handled it better. I think you were able to kind of assume the responsibility, you know, you weren't, wasn't really meant to be yours, like that should never have happened, but I think now you're more equipped going into parenthood because of that experience that you had.

Hmm. Yeah. No, well, let's hope so. maybe my feeling of confidence is like MIS founded, but I, uh, no, I, I hear what you're saying and that's a tricky spot to be in. Like you said, it's not your role to be Christina's parent, but you know, at the same time, right there, there's a certain gap maybe that needs to be filled and there's yeah, there there's of course your sibling relationship, which is hard.

And it's so tricky, just touching on this idea that we have to step into the parent role. Mm-hmm, , it's such a weird thing because I know for me, uh, there was just a season that I just had to do that in and I tried not to let it dictate my entire life, cuz I could have just never. Moved on with my, I know people like that.

Like I know people who, they just see that their family's really broken. They wanna be there for maybe mom or dad and their siblings. And they just like, don't move forward in life. Not that that's a bad thing. Like maybe in certain cases that's okay. But I've seen it be bad. Like I've seen it be detrimental because they're literally not moving on in life, not doing what they should be doing or what they feel called to be doing, because they feel the sense of obligation to be there.

Mm-hmm and so it's a tricky balance, but I like what I, what I typically tell people, if I'm talking to 'em about this is there might be a season in life where you have to fill that role. You're not supposed to. But if there's just that void and there's no other alternative, then you might just need to now, if there is an alternative, a good alternative, then that should be taken so that you can just be a kid, you can go through life and just grow up.

But if you can't find that alternative and you have to fill that role fully, or in some ways, then I personally think it's kind of a matter of necessity. It's like, okay, I just have to fill this role, even if it's not ideal. Um, but never wanna remain in that position. I'm curious what you think about that.

That's just kind of what I've come to over the years. Um, any thoughts on that? Well, I think it's one it's really like so cool that you had that awareness of like, you know, my siblings need me and I'm kind of it right now. You know, I, it's not supposed to be that way, but like you said, there's this void and I don't think I had that mental.

Awareness. Like, I don't think I'd ever clicked of like, oh yeah. Like my sister needs someone to help her with, with all this stuff. So I think, I think I do think that it's true. And I think that if you can realize that it's SU it is gonna be super helpful for them. And also, and you'll, yeah. I don't know if you'll, this will resonate with you or not, but sometimes when you help someone else, you know, it kind of helps mitigate your own grief in a way.

Mm. Yeah. It's something about, um, switching the focus to some, to another person and having a sense of like, okay, you know, X, Y, Z is falling apart. I can't do anything about that, but I can do this. You know, I can be there for this person. I can comfort or whatever it is. So I do think that in a way, like, again, like you said, it's not ideal, it's not, what's supposed to happen, but it could be beneficial, you know, mutually beneficial for, for your siblings and for yourself, if you're able to, to offer some comfort that way.

Totally. And I totally relate to what you're saying. In fact, that was really helpful for me. And one of my mentors communicated that to me, that, you know, one of the things that you can do to help heal is to take the focus off yourself. And there is a balance there. And I know, I know you would agree with this, that I think some people use that as an excuse, never to deal with their issues and never to heal, never to face their brokenness.

I think I I've certainly done that at times, but, uh, at the same time, I do think there's something very constructive and healthy about looking beyond your own pain. And one of my favorite movies, probably my, my favorite movie is Batman begins, um, a Batman fanatic. I love it. And in that movie, there's this great line.

Uh, Bruce is talking to his childhood friend, Rachel and Bruce had kind of been very bitter after his parents got, uh, shot and died. And he, you know, had been off to college. He went to like Princeton and he came back for the hearing of the guy who killed his parents. And basically he wanted to get revenge and kill the guy who, who shot his parents.

And anyway, without going too Mo too into the story, the, the guy ended up getting shot by someone else. And so Bruce, uh, was kind of relieved and grateful, but at the same time, he was disappointed that he couldn't do it. So the, the, what was going on in the story is that. For years, he was just so wrapped up in his own pain that he just didn't help anyone else.

He, he was just stuck in his own pain and Rachel challenged him and they were driving in the car and she's like brought him through a really bad part of Gotham. And she said, look beyond your own pain, Bruce. Like there there's, there are people who really need you. And that always stuck with me. And so I tried to do that, you know, growing up when I know I was dealing with things, but I knew that, okay, like I need to deal with those things, but at the same time, I can look beyond my own pain and help other people.

Totally. Yeah. No, that's a great example. Yeah. Sorry to go through all of that and begin, but you get the point, but. Yeah, I, uh, was also thinking just once you get to the point of leaving, it can be difficult too. Uh, it can, you can kind of create a void cuz if you're a crutch for your siblings or your mom or your dad, then once you pull away, like, are they gonna fall apart?

Like, what's it gonna look like? And so that was a big concern of mine. And I had to wrestle with, do I move on and just pursue my girlfriend at the time he was on my wife or do I kind of just stay at home and try to help out around here and all that. And so I really was conflicted with that as well. And what I came to was that it's could actually be more helpful to them in the long.

If you move on with your life and, and this isn't maybe true in every situation, like I said, there's seasons where you may be more needed, but I think, uh, one is you're modeling what it looks like to have a healthy life and, and to move on and to like live out your vocation. If you, you know, getting married to, to date and to get married and to build a family, like that's a beautiful thing.

In fact, as we've talked about a lot in the show, one of the most healing things for those of us who come from broken homes is to see healthy marriages and families. It's just so good for us. It starts to rewire that broken model that we have inside of us that says that, you know, love cant last, and this is how it looks typically and all that stuff.

So that's really good. But then also people need to learn how to stand in their own two feet. That's really important. And so I think that's a good lesson now that we're talking about parenting is that, you know, you never want to be the type of parent. Or parent role where someone's so relying on you, that they can't stand in their own two feet.

And so I think that's one of the dangers too, with filling that parent role is that you can become maybe too close to someone in an unhealthy way to where when you do pull away and move on with your life, like you should, uh, they can be left devastated. Yeah, absolutely. Let's go back to, uh, just talking about being a mom, I'm curious, what are some fears that you have about being a mom, especially someone who does come from a broken family?

I think the, the biggest one and it's probably the most obvious is like, how, how am I going to wound my kids? Yeah. It's just something that I, I feel like it comes up so often of like, oh yeah, like my mom or my dad, like, they didn't do this or they did this. And like, it affected me this way and you're like, oh my gosh.

So it's just, I think even really good parents. Do I don't know if it's fair to say, do some sort of damage, but like, you know, don't get it right. Perfect. Perfectly all the time. Mm-hmm . And so, and, and then I think a lot of times in whatever way they fall short, like there is kind of a, a repercussion and that doesn't mean that where you have no hope or that it's, um, impossible to be a good parent without being perfect.

But, um, it is something that looking back on yeah. Like my own childhood and especially the divorce and realizing that, you know, your parents really have a huge impact on just who you are as a person and the, the trajectory of your life. And so it's kind of like, yeah, like how, how am I going to, to hurt my kids?

You know, because I think as much as you try. Not to in one way or another, we're gonna, we're gonna miss the mark. So that's, I mean, you know, a little bit somber, but definitely something I wrestled with. Yeah. And then I think it's something else which this isn't really necessarily from my family. It's just kind of from observing society in general now, but like, I really, you know, want to raise kids who have good values and I've seen even really good, or at least parents that I deem to be, you know, really good people and, um, to be good parents I've seen even their kids, I guess, I don't know if lose the way is the right word way to put it, but just kind of not have a sound moral compass mm-hmm and it's like, wow, like, gosh, like these, these people who, who seem to be, you know, just good people and doing the best they can, like even.

You know, their kids somehow I think get a little lost sometimes. And so I think that's another fear I have is, is raising kids who, who don't have good values. And then I think it was Chris. I think it was him who said, you know, I thought I was a perfect parent until I had a kids. , you know, I think it's like my husband and I have a lot of conversations about like, oh yeah, like some people do this and we don't wanna do that.

Or, you know, X, Y, Z. And it it's really easy from where I'm standing right now to say, yeah, this, you know, as a parent, you should never do this. Or I can't believe people do this then I think once you have kids, like a lot of that goes out the window. I think it's just a lot hard. It's just not that black and white as you, as it seems, um, beforehand.

And I think, uh, cryonic was relating it to Rath specifically, like, I didn't know what Rath was until I had case. And I was like, oh my gosh, you know, like, it's hard to imagine, you know, like really losing your temper or something with, let's say a four year old or something mm-hmm . But I do think that it's something that, yeah, like it's, it's really challenging.

And I do think that I'm gonna be pushed in that regard. And so it's like, gosh, I hope I, you know, can I, can I handle this? Well, like, do I have what it takes to not lose it? So I think those are kind of the things that I have been kind. Percolating the past few months. Okay. No, that makes sense. And I would agree that in, you know, our parents I'm sure.

And I even know this, uh, there were just things in their lives when they were growing up, that their parents did to hurt them. And you know, it's not to demonize our grandparents or anything like that, but it's just, it's true. Like we just hurt people, especially those that we love the most. And it's so unfortunate, but it's just the broken world that we live in.

And we're gonna get to this in a little bit, but. It's really hopeful to know that it's okay. If you're not perfect, it's okay. If you hurt your child, it's okay. If you, um, fail at times, but what matters is of course making up and, uh, reestablishing that relationship and making things right. And we'll get to that in a little bit, but I couldn't agree more though, the relationship that you have with your parents growing up is the most important relationship in your life.

At least the most formative relationship in your life. And so it really is important to reflect on it and to think back like, okay, what was this like? And again, we're gonna get to that in a second, based on the podcast episode that we're gonna chat about with Adam Young, from the place we found ourselves, there's a lot of good things in there to, to talk about it, but you're so right.

About being a critic. Like it is so easy from the outside looking in to be critical. It's so easy. For example, , you know, where you just use example of podcasting, it's so easy to listen to a podcast and be like, ah, that was so annoying. Like the way that that guy talked or, you know, whatever the music and, uh, and yeah, there might be valid concern for those things, but it's like, okay, do you have a podcast?

Like, are you a pro in this area? Like, it's so easy to be a critical once you get in the midst of it, it's not as easy as it seems. And so I think that's true with parenting too. Like you said, once we're in the midst of it, um, it's gonna be different. So we'll see, we'll have this conversation again. in a little bit, and that's true though.

Yeah. Yeah. It would be, it would be great to kind of take people along this journey with us. Uh, some fears on, on my end, kinda as a dad. Same as you, like, I'm afraid how my brokenness will affect them. I'm afraid of how, you know, my imperfections devices that I struggle with are going to impact them. And yeah, man, it is so humbling and it definitely motivating to wanna work on yourself even more also.

Yeah. Yeah. Just in marriage too. It's like your kids are just absorbing on an unconscious level, everything you and your spouse do and say, and everything it's like overwhelming because literally without saying a word, you're teaching them how to love, and that is intimidating because you might not be very good at it.

And I know I'm not at times. And so like, man, I'm, I'm afraid how that is gonna affect them, uh, just as people, but also, you know, in the future, in their own relationship. So that, yeah, that is, uh, kind of scary. Do, do you relate on that front? Yeah. I mean, I, I, while you were saying that, I was like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

And I think my husband and I do think he is really good at being ch you know, charitable, um, in his actions. Like that's, I don't know. It's just very evident to me. And I'm like, I was thinking, he was like, yeah, like he must have learned that from his parents. I think it is a little daunting that they they're just little sponges.

Exactly. And they just take in so much. And I was with, um, my nephew this past weekend and, you know, seeing him chase after the tools that his dad and his granddad were using and then try to use them. , you know, you just see how much that they're taking in and, and yeah. It's like, you don't wanna mess this up.

It's not just about how you talk to them or what you say to them, or even how you treat them. It's so much about how. You are around them and how you treat your spouse and how you treat people around them that you don't like, you know? And so all those things it's like, yeah, it is a little daunting. It's.

Being put on stage, but the stakes are so much higher, you know? Totally. Yeah. It's game time. It's it's tough. And yeah, I, I think I, I wanted to say Miranda, you're gonna make a great mom and I know Steven's gonna make a great dad. And I think it's so important for those of us who come from broken homes, just to hear that and just receive that, cuz we are capable, you are capable of being a great parent.

And so I'm excited to see you grow in that role. I'm sure there'll be bumps along the way and that's be expected. But yeah, I think, and everyone listening, you're capable of, of being a great parent, you might have to work at it. You might fail a lot. You might need to, um, really grow in some areas of your life to get to that spot where you can be a, a good parent, but you are capable of it.

Yeah. Cuz I think a lot of times we probably believe and feel that, oh, I'm just so broken that I'm not capable of it. I never will be, but, but that's just a lie. Right. Yeah, you have to be hopeful. Absolutely. Another fear of mine. I guess it's more of a concern maybe than a fears, just how my kids will, um, just be impacted by my parents' divorce, how they're quote unquote, like grandchildren of divorce.

And, uh, one of my close friends, he was telling me about this recently, like his parents are together and, uh, you know, have a pretty good marriage and, uh, but his grandparents are divorced and he was just explaining how that's impacted, uh, him and, and especially his parents over the years. So I just, it's difficult to think that, you know, it'll be kind of confusing to her.

To to see like, oh, Hey, why are, you know, grandma and grandpa not together? Like, why don't they live in the same house? Yeah. It's just kind of breaks my heart to think this is this little girl who just will be asking these really legitimate questions. And there's really not a great answer for it. Yeah. I honestly hadn't really thought of that, but it's so true.

Yeah. So, and then some other things kind of that go along with that is just the drama and tension. I know different families are, are different. Some parents, uh, divorced parents get along pretty well, but I know there's always drama and tension at life events like birthdays and holidays. And like we had a baby shower recently.

I made the difficult decision to, uh, have two separate ones, one for mom, one for dad's side. And I, I kinda was going both ways cause my parents are getting along better now, which is good. But, um, I just felt like based on the past between our families, at my mom's side, my dad's side, it was gonna be more comfortable for the guests who were there and, and that just caused tension and it, it was difficult.

And my dad obviously had to plan a baby shower, which , you know, you know, it's not something a guy has to do every day. So that was just, just seeing that it was kind of a reminder, like, yep, there's gonna be more of this in the future, which is, uh, concerning. And then of course, you know, balancing everything out.

Spending time, you know, with each parent, cuz I think it just, you're your time. It's like, not that our parents don't love us and wanna see us, but once there's a grandchild, what I've seen with my friends who have grandkid or have kids and their parents like wanna see them, it's like, oh my gosh, there's no one.

They wanna see more than the grandchildren. so it's like then, you know, splitting that time between parents can be really difficult and there might be some hard feelings there if you maybe spend more time with mom than with dad and yeah, lots of challenges ahead. I'm hopeful that we'll be able to figure them out kind of as we go through those stages, but it's certainly not gonna be easy.

Absolutely. You mentioned before that, you know, even the best parents hurt their kids. And I think we all can agree that nobody's parents are perfect, but I think there is, um, something that we can learn from the good and the bad that we've been through some important lessons. And so I, I think we need to talk about this stuff.

It could be kind of uncomfortable, but I think it's, uh, if it's done out of a motivation to learn and to be better in the future, as opposed to just like bashing our parents, which you and I are not interested in doing then, uh, I think it's really good and helpful. So I wanna have that conversation right now.

Uh, MERTA, what did you learn about parenting from your parents that was good, that, that you would wanna repeat with your children? I do think they got a lot of things, right. And one of them was this idea of like the world doesn't revolve around you, you know, like you're not. , you're not the center of the universe.

Like you, um, are part of bigger reality and in a sense, like, it sounds harsh, but I think it's good for you to recognize that there's more going on than just what you're going through, what you're experiencing and people aren't always gonna play by your roles. You know, sometimes you have to kind of accommodate, you know, an objective morality or a truth that, that exists kind of apart from you or outside of just what you think or what you feel.

I think that was a good lesson for us, cuz I think we all learned pretty quickly, like, you know, to adapt to whatever situation we were in and to like work for whatever it is we wanted to, and like in line with that, another thing that they, you know, either directly or indirectly taught us was, you know, entitlement.

Can they get you anywhere? Like you, you're not owed certain things like good grades or success in work, or, you know, just whatever goals that you want to achieve. Like there are things that you need to work for. And it kind of, I think it was really healthy thing for us to learn at a young age because it made it less disappointing.

you know? Yeah. When you didn't get exactly what you wanted. Um, and it also kind of put in the idea of like, okay, maybe it didn't work out this time or, yeah, I didn't pan out the way I wanted to, but like, I can strive for a goal and I can still learn from my mistakes and, and keep persevering. So it wasn't like the end of the world.

If something didn't work out the way you wanted it to the first time. Because you're not owed it, you know, it's something that you, you can work for and grow through that experience, even failure, you know, that's something they can learn and grow from something else that was kind of, it seems trivial, but I think it was really good for us was like, we, we, we had to clean up after ourselves from a pretty young age.

Like I remember mom saying, you know, if you don't put this toy away, like I'm throw, I'm throwing it away. Ouch. . Yeah. And so, you know, as like a six year old, you're like, that's brutal, but I think it really like all three of us are like pretty, I, I do think like cleanliness an organization is really important.

Like I think it's important to just having a healthy life is just things being more or less ordered. Mm-hmm I think it helps you have clarity and peace. and I think that the three of us kind of, I mean, my brother to a lesser degree, but I think the three of us, you know, understand that like people aren't waiting around to serve us.

Like you, you know, you have to do your part and especially take responsibility for your actions and also just practically, you know, take care of the space that you're in, you know, because it matters. Totally. No, that's so good. Those are beautiful lessons. And, uh, you're you're number two of three. Is that right?

Yes. Yeah. Second child is the best just in case anyone was wondering, so nice work there, Miranda job. Um, and then you have one step-sister as. Correct. Okay. No, no. I just wanted to make sure everyone kind of knew. Yeah. Okay. Such good lessons. And I, I just love that. I think when we're born into this world, we kind of think that we're the center of the universe and in real ways we are at least for our parents, but eventually yeah, you're right.

We gotta kind of shake that and yeah, love what you were saying about entitlement and just learning like that personal responsibility. I think that's so good. And my along the lines for me was. Hard work. I, I learned that from my dad, for sure. He's the still the most hardworking man that I know he worked so hard and he was in construction all of his life.

And he is very good at what he did, he, what he does. And so learned a lot about having a good work ethic and like getting after it. Like you have to put the work in, you're not, you know, along with what you said, you're not just gonna be handed things in life. You have to go and work at it and you're probably gonna fail.

You're probably gonna get knocked down from time to time, but you just have to keep going. And so that was a great lesson from him. And then also, you know, my, my dad, he, yeah, he has his own demons, his own issues. But one of the things that I saw a lot, at least with like other people, uh, he's just so selfless.

Like he was always ready to go above and beyond for, for other people, which, which I always admired. And that again, kind of taught us, like you said, to take. Eyes off yourself and look out to, to other people. Well, my mom from my mom, I think I learned, um, how to be more of a critical thinker. This might sound kind of interesting, but she, uh, was kind of ahead of her time in a lot of ways.

She's not like a, a hippie by any means, but, um, but she was more of like a natural person in a time where that was just not very popular. Like now it's much more popular, but, um, in her time, like conventional medicine, not that she's not against it she's actually a nurse, but, but she was just a critical thinker about some basic assumptions that were made in like medicine such as breastfeeding.

Like it was not popular at all. At that time to breastfeed your child, it was popular to give them a bottle, to give them formula, to give them like cow smoke or goat smoke or something. And she figured out through, you know, talking 'em with other people that actually. This is best for the child to, to, to breastfeed.

And so I really admire her for that. And so she kind of taught me to, um, yeah, just like question things, like think critically, don't just go with the flow. Sometimes you're gonna have to go against the tide and it won't be easy, but it will be worth it. And so I, I really appreciate that as well. And she did, she prioritized us kids.

Uh, so well, she really, uh, we were the most important thing in her life and, you know, for better or for worse, she really, really put us at the top of her priority list and worked hard to, uh, make sure that we, you know, were loved and have what we need. And so I really appreciate that. And a along with that too, I learned her from her, the ability to just sacrifice, like she's been through a lot just with the whole breakdown of the family.

Uh, both my parents have, but especially her and I have seen her just. Be selfless lately you touched on before. So those are definitely a few things that I, I wanna repeat in my own parenting. That's awesome. That's so beautiful. And I, it reminds me of my grandmother. I, I told you she passed away last summer, but she was kind of that way too, where she didn't want to get an epidural.

And that was like, unheard of like that all the doctors were like, you have to, you know, and now people are, you know, a lot, it's a lot more, there's a lot more variety. People kind of see the good in, in getting the epidural, but also like the downside, but things like that, like, she was just kind of ahead of her time.

Like again, with the health concerns, you know, she kind of was like, always ahead of the curve a little bit with that. So it's kind of cool. That your mom was like that too, or is like that too. Yeah. Okay. No, that's so interesting. And I think there, there is a lot of wisdom that can be, I think, just passed down from generation to generation and, um, it, it is great to see like medicine kind of catching up with some of that stuff.

And then also, like you said, it's, I think we've gone to a point where where're aware of different risks and alternatives, and it's not always such like a clear cut decision. It's something that you need to weigh out and make a decision on. So I don't want anyone listening to us to think like you and I are totally against like medical intervention or anything.

No. Like medicine exists for a reason. It's like such a good thing, but just mentioning those few things. I think it's important to, to have a critical mind and not just go with the flow and go with whatever's popular because as we've seen, I mean, if you've studied history, you, you know that, uh, often what was popular was very, very bad.

Like not good. For, for anyone and ended up bringing about a ton of ruin and disaster. Whether you look at ancient Rome or I don't know, different civilizations throughout, you know, the history of the world, you can see how you really needed to be countercultural. And that's not easy at times on the flip side, what would you say that you don't wanna repeat?

So some of the bad things that you observed about parenting that, uh, that you definitely don't wanna do in your own parenting dismissiveness, I think was a big one. Like I just remember, and to be fair, I'm a pretty sensitive person and was probably, you know, I, I do like have a tendency of overreacting sometimes or being dramatic and I'm sure as a kid that was even more the case.

But I do remember a lot of times when I, you know, turned to one of my parents cuz I was heard or upset or. Angry, you know, there was a lot of either like you need to just deal with it or just a lack of empathy, I guess. And I think it's not, it wasn't malicious, obviously. I think it's just that they're different people and that it was just not understanding where I was coming from.

And I've found, I have seen myself fall into this, um, as an adult being impatient with other people when they're suffering, because I'm like, no, that's not a big deal. Or like you're X, Y, Z, instead of being receptive and empathizing with the other person. Cause regardless of whether, you know, it's merited or not what the person is asking for, like there's a bid there, which is for attention, for empathy, for love.

And I don't think denying them of that, you know, is ever the right, the right thing to do. And that doesn't mean. Not saying something that's not true or like coddling, but I do think there is a moment of, you know, you have to be there for them emotionally. And I think that that was something that my parents kind of had a hard time with just because of personality differences.

Totally. And then the other thing is, you know, our faith, we did go to church and, you know, I think my mom was pretty active, but I wish I had seen my dad take more of an active role in our prayer life and to kind of pray with us as a family. I think would've been really good. And, um, would've kind of instilled those values earlier on, in a deeper way.

So that's something that I wish I had seen my parents do was like pray together or, you know, just because my, my faith is a big part of my life and I, I wish it had. I had seen that modeled earlier on mm-hmm so that's kind of something that I'm hoping my kids will, will have the opportunity to see. Yeah, no, that's really insightful.

And I think it's helpful to, you know, identify those things and just be conscious of it and make a plan to do the opposite. And a lot of the things you said resonate with me, like my dad, especially was pretty emotionally distant and, uh, I think a big part of the reason for that was because he was just dealing with a lot of his own hurt and brokenness in life, not to make an excuse for it, but just to kind of understand it a little bit more.

And so I, I certainly can relate with that. I think, I dunno if this is helpful for people, but I think our parents' generation, uh, typically I think most, most of our parents' generation, maybe people listening, um, don't have like the parents in that same generation, but it's good to know that a lot of them were raised by like the world war II.

Generation like some of them, you know, great depression generation and man, they, those people just had to be very tough. It was very, very hard times. And so I think they, in a way maybe were better at the hard virtues and were maybe better at the soft virtues, like empathy, like you mentioned. And so, uh, I think it's good to keep that in mind.

Um, you know, obviously we wanna have both the, the hard virtues and the soft virtues and, uh, and by hard virtues, I mean, things like courage and prudence, like making good judgements and things like that. I, yeah, there's definitely it wasn't perfect, but they kind of just had that. Toughness because of what they've been through.

Like my grandfather, he fought in world war II for Italy under mu. And so, you know, he fought alongside the Nazis at one point and then the Nazis turned on the Italians and they took him all prisoners. And so like, I can't imagine being through that experience. And so, yeah. Was he a little bit rougher, rough around the edges?

He was, but he was like a very loving man at the same time, but it just makes sense, given what he's been through that he's maybe a little bit callous and again, not such a bad thing, but I think there is a balance there. And I, I think that's where we're seeing a lot more. Now we have a better understanding of parenting and people understand like the value of empathy.

I know Bernie brown talks about it all the time. And so I think it is really valuable, but some other things just from that I observed from my parents too, is my, my dad saw his role as basically just the provider. It's like, if I put food on the table, if I make money, keep the roof over the head. Like, that's my job.

I'm done check. And, you know, there's so much more to parenting than that, but that was one thing that I don't wanna repeat at all. You know, I wanna be present in my kids' lives and make sure that I'm just connecting with them on a, on a deep level. Another thing too, that I saw from my dad is that there was so much brokenness that, uh, he had still to deal with that it was such a distraction for him.

And so, uh, yeah, I wanna, that's partly why I've been, you know, so motivated to just work on myself and heal and yeah. Just continue to grow because I think, uh, that's just so important that has such a good foundation to being able to love and to look beyond your own pain. And, uh, like, like you said, I, I really wish that my dad would've been, uh, more involved in like our faith life and talking about important things.

Like we, even to this day, like I love my dad to death, but. Even to this day, like a lot of our conversations, aren't very deep. It's just, they're more surface level. They talk like he is good at what he does at work. So a lot of our conversations are about work and he finds, you know, a lot of value in that.

Um, as a, you know, provider or at least someone who's being productive. And so I definitely wanna make sure that I'm having those deep conversations. I think it's really important. And then just a couple other things from my dad, I saw, you know, his anger. I think men deal with this a lot, but women do too.

Just anger get the best of us. And, um, that's something that I'm, you know, of course working on myself is just, it's okay to feel anger. It's good to feel anger, but it's important that we keep it in check. And, um, another thing too, just saw how my parents, um, especially my dad. Kind of looked up to people who had a lot of things, uh, not that it's wrong to have money and to, you know, be successful at such a good thing in a lot of ways, but it just depends on how you use it.

And, um, he, I know kind of admired people like that. So basically he had this materialistic worldview where he thought, you know, the more things you have, the more money you have, the better that life will be the happier that you'll be. And I think our generation sees that that's just a really empty promise that doesn't work.

And so that's something I wanna make sure that, um, you know, I don't pass on my kids either. So lots there. Um, on my mom's side, I would say I'm just my example from her. We've had this debate recently, but, uh, I've literally talked to my mom about this, uh, where, you know, what do you put first, your kids or your spouse.

And she put her kids first. And I have no doubt that that played a role in the breakdown of the marriage. You know, I'm not plays in blame in her, but I'm just saying that that certainly had some sort of a role in it. And, uh, she still believes that that was the right call. And obviously there's a balance there.

You can't like completely neglect your kids to put your marriage first, but I know you and I both believe that, you know, the marriage first and, and that's actually really good for the kids. If you. Keep that as the priority, I've also seen her just tendency to control. And I, I think that comes from a place of being hurt, you know, going through a lot and even in her own life.

And I remember growing up, Brenda, I, yeah, she would like ask us to do certain things and, and I've had these conversations with her. So I'm not like gossiping about her. You know, she would tell us to do certain things and then maybe like spell out in, in like very detailed instructions, like how to do every piece of it, or, you know, even like take over once we started doing something and it just basically underneath, it was just this desire for control and I hated it.

I hated it. And, uh, I think we all struggle with control, especially those of us who've been through something traumatic. It was something where I remember joking with her once she was like, uh, I had recently started driving and I, I had been driving, I think for like a year or two, so that wasn't like super recent.

And, um, she was like asking me to, uh, go get gas at this particular gas station. And she was like, going through all this detail, like how to get there and all sorts of things. I'm like, mom, do you wanna just come like pump the gas for me as well? and so I, you know, I, we we've, we've tried over the years, like be like, mom, like you, you raised good kids.

Like we're capable of doing things, but I think that was always a struggle for her. Just that control. Yeah. And then just other things too, probably could keep going. Just the, uh, slow decision making. And I don't know if this is something that is a trend in people come from broken families, but I know, uh, my family is not very good at making quick decisions.

it like takes a long time and that's something I've tried to like work against like analysis paralysis, where I I've seen my mom not wanna make decisions because she's afraid of making the wrong choice, the wrong call. And that just, that, that impacts you as a kid that impacts you, uh, through life, especially if that's like what you're taught to like very, very carefully weigh every little decision, um, even when they don't really deserve that much time and attention.

So that, that was certainly something that, that I don't wanna repeat then lastly, I would say, uh, just how, you know, I observed things in my parents' marriage, uh, not exactly a parenting item, but it certainly affected us kids how they handled conflict. How, you know, they would argue, and it wasn't always like this, but a lot of times, uh, the majority of times there was an argument, it would get heated, it would get loud.

And then one, or both parents would just like go their separate ways and we never saw any sort of resolution. And so one of the things I learned from one of my mentors, who's a teacher at my college at FCAN university. Um, he was just explaining the importance of, if you have conflict in front of your kids, make sure you, you resolve it in front of your kids.

It's really, really, really, really, really important to do that. And we just didn't see that growing up. So say all that again, not to demonize my parents, but to say, okay, these were the shortcomings. These are things that I saw that I didn't like. And I wanna do them differently in, in my own parent. I wanna switch gears and talk about that, uh, episode that we mentioned.

So Adam Young has, uh, is a counselor out here in Colorado. He has the podcast called, uh, the place we find ourselves. Awesome, awesome podcast. I love it. I recommend it. And in episode two of that podcast, he, uh, teaches the six core needs. Relational needs that kids, uh, need their parents to fill. And the episode is titled why you are family of origin impacts your life more than anything else, profound and, and so true.

And so I, I wanna dive into that. We're just gonna talk about some of the things he talks about in the episode and, and just give some, uh, yeah. Commentary insight into what we experienced growing up and what we wanna do moving forward, uh, with our own kids. And when, when we talk about this episode, it's good to keep in mind that this stuff applies not just to like little infants and babies and like young children, but as you grow up, you know, as a child, as a teenager, even into your, you know, young adult years, like this stuff applies as well.

So you can kind of think of that as we kind of go through these things. But one of the things he starts in this in episode two of his podcast, he says that we all kind of have a hard time. Even if you come from a good family, we all have a hard time taking an honest look at how our parents treated us.

And he says that that's kind of instructive that that's, um, an interesting thing to, to keep in mind. And what he says though, is. A child needs their parents to get it right about 50% of the time, which I think, again, it's very consulting. It's good that you don't need to be perfect, but, but that's really the sign of like a good enough parent.

And so he lays out in this episode that the six needs that, uh, children have that, that they need their parents to fill. And the first thing he talks about is attunement, attunement. It's kind of this odd word. And, uh, what it basically means is your parent's ability to, um, read your emotional state. Okay.

Your ability to, to read your emotional state, like what's going on inside of you inside your heart, inside your mind, inside your body, your thoughts, your feelings. It doesn't mean you're a mind reader, but, um, just having an awareness and, uh, the core of attunement he says is not reading right? Every single time, not looking at your child and immediately knowing what they're experiencing, what they're feeling, what they're thinking and knowing like what they need, but really just recognizing when your child is feeling maybe unheard or, or unseen, and then pressing in to try to understand what's happening with the child.

And he says that it's in this process of attunement or I'm sorry of misattunement. And then reattunement that you come to feel safe with your parents as a child, that, that you come to feel that you can trust them, that they're there for you. And he says, one of the huge barriers to this, I'll just read this quote.

He said, A parent that is distracted by their own needs. Their own wants their own emotions, their own personal pain can't be attuned to their child's needs. And that goes right along with some of the things that Miranda. And I said before, and so. It makes sense. Miranda, you know, given the, what he said here that, um, divorce is so harmful to children.

And because in most cases, parents are kind of, you know, going to war with each other and they're just so focused on their own stuff, their own paying their own needs, that they tend to neglect the needs of. You know, their children and the people around them. So just reflecting on this in my own life, you know, I think my mom, uh, when we were kids did a really good job of being there for us of trying to do this whole attunement thing that he talks about.

But when the separation happened, uh, she would just so overwhelmed. She had to now fill her role as a mother, and then also fill the dad role of providing and, and doing all that at, you know, at that time in my family, at least. And so it just was so consuming for her that she wasn't able to be there for us to recognize like what was going on inside of us.

Cause a lot of us were, we were really hurting and when we ended up acting on in all sorts of ways, but she just was overwhelmed. Couldn't be there for us. Like one of the things for me I know was I was just hanging around with like really bad friends, like friends who weren't good for me. And she didn't really recognize.

Yeah, I don't blame her for it. I, I do wish, you know, something was done sooner, but that, that was one thing. And then for my dad, when it came to attunement, I just recognized that, um, this is something he really struggled with. Like I mentioned before, he was just very, I think, overwhelmed with a lot of his own demons and brokenness, and it was just hard for him to focus on us.

And I don't wanna say he did this horribly cuz I'm sure, you know, he did it, um, better than maybe I remember, but um, I know this was a particular, uh, struggle for him that this whole attunement thing, but what about you Miranda? Yeah, it is hard. And I think the divorce like D just throws everything for loop and you know, a caveat of this by saying that a like I'm not, I don't have a great memory of early childhood.

And so a lot of what I remember is after is like either during or after the divorce. So I think that, you know, whatever I have to say is unfortunately going to be a little skewed and especially because I think the negative sometimes. Ends up sticking a lot more than the positive. Totally. So, but yeah, I think similar to what you're saying, you know, mom was better at yeah.

Knowing what I was feeling, what I was thinking, I think, yeah, with the separation, she also was just kind of really caught up in, in what she was going through. And I think that at that point there was, I guess, a misattunement and I think that it led to a lot of issues and I definitely similar to what you, your experience was, you know, kind of started going down paths that I wish I hadn't, and that I wish a parent had been there to, to say, you know, this isn't good, this isn't healthy.

Mm-hmm but yeah, I do think mom was a little bit more aware. She was more in tune to what was going on with me on a daily basis. Dad, He's just more oblivious in general, you know, but on top of that, the fact that we didn't live together after separation, like exacerbated that so much more. So he was a lot more oblivious except on occasions when I was like, it was extremely vocal.

So, but that being said, I'm not someone who's, you know, super great at hiding my emotions anyway. So I do think they probably both picked up on more than I'm giving them credit for. But I do think that the divorce led to a break in attunement, which I think is just kind of almost inevitable, you know?

Yeah. And I think it's a, at the core of why there's so many problems with it and. That makes a ton of sense. And the, the second thing that Adam Young says is, um, that the, uh, the next need, the second need is, uh, responsiveness. We have, we need our parents to basically take action based on what they see.

And, and that's what responsiveness is, is just taking action. As a result of the attunement of, of like recognizing the emotional state of, of the child and every child, he says needs their parent to be responsive when that child feels distressed or mad or sad or afraid anything. And the, the parent in that case needs to offer comfort care kindness.

Um, and hopefully, you know, if there was a break in the relationship they wanna bring reconnection. And one of the things he says in the episode, which was kind of striking for me, he said, uh, a lot of us believe that our parents weren't attuned to us. They didn't even recognize what we were thinking and feeling because if they did, then that meant that they didn't care enough to do anything about it.

And, and that's hard. It's hard to swallow if, if that was the case. And so looking back kind of on my own childhood, um, my mom was definitely good kind of again, at being responsive, but again, the divorce pulled her away from her ability to do that. And she just had to deal with her own pain and, and, um, you know, her own issues.

And I think my dad struggled with this for, for a long time. And like I mentioned with my mom, the divorce made it worse as well. Um, so I'm curious on the responsiveness need. Um, how did you experience this? Yeah, I, I definitely think that that was a, that was a hard one. I think mom, because, you know, probably because of what she was going through, she was kind of like emotionally tapped out.

So I think sometimes, you know, she was attuned, she did see my frustration or anger or, or hurt or whatever. but her response was often kind of dismissive. I think she just going through something like that, like you just kind of lose the capacity to really be open to another person, another person suffering mm-hmm , um, especially when it seemed maybe trivial, you know, compared to what you're going through.

So I think, you know, that was hard. And then I think dad, he wasn't dismissive, uh, in the same sense. Like he wa he didn't get angry or kind of, he didn't say like, oh, you just need to, you know, get over it kind of thing. I, and I, and I think this is just him not knowing how to, how to respond, but a lot of times he would laugh.

Like he would, yeah. Like that was his gut response was just to make light of it. And it, again, like it wasn't malicious, it wasn't him being mean or anything like that. It was just, I think that was just like, he didn't understand. And so. That his response was, was to find humor in it, but it's unfortunate.

But again, it wasn't like a malicious thing, but I do think it was kind of hurtful. And so that's something else that, you know, I have to take into account. Like even if your three year old is crying because you know, they can't find their Teddy wear and you're like, you know, this is not a big deal. You know, it is a big deal to them and you have to be able to step into their shoes as hard as that can be sometimes and try to respond.

Appropriately like Adam Young talks about. Yeah. And then that brings us to the next need, which he says you needed your parents to engage. So the next need is engagement. And this is a little bit different than responsiveness. Responsiveness is basically their, uh, reaction or response to the attunement.

Engagement's a little bit more proactive. It's beyond a reaction beyond a response, at least based on my understanding of it. Uh, it's really, yeah. This proactive pursuit, this intention to, to genuinely know you as a child, deeply on a heart level. And in that episode, he quotes, uh, a neuroscientist Kirk Thompson, uh, who said each one of us comes into this world, looking for someone, looking for us.

It's profound. And, uh, he, Adam goes on to say that the results, uh, of a lack of engagement is feeling abandoned as abandonment. And he says the, you know, that the core of abandonment is not physical abandonment, but rather, uh, a lack of attunement, a lack of responsiveness and a lack of engagement from your parents.

And again, he quotes, uh, Kirk Thompson, who, who said, we can grow up in homes in which the food finds the table. The money finds the college funds and the family even finds the church each Sunday. But somehow our hearts remain undiscovered by the two people. We most need to know us, our parents. So again, looking at this, um, there, there's just a huge difference in both of my parents before the divorce and after the divorce, um, especially with my mom just being, you know, emotionally tapped out, like you said, and, uh, with my dad, I.

Always admired him. Uh, especially growing up, he was just like my hero and I always wanted more from him. I always wanted, you know, more approval. I wanted more attention, more time from him. I couldn't necessarily put my finger in it when I was a kid, but looking back and, uh, I remember he coached my older brother, Anthony in, uh, baseball.

So he was his baseball coach when he was like in middle school. And that was like a year or two away for me. When he could like coach me and remember me just being so excited, like my, I was so excited. I was just thrilled. We loved baseball growing up, played for years and yeah, I just could not wait for my dad to be my coach.

And then my parents separated and that never happened. And that was just devastating for me. It was really hard to just kind of miss out in that whole experience. And I know everyone listening I'm sure has experiences like that as well, that were just kind of taken from you, Rob from you. And so, yeah, I really did want my dad, especially to engage with me and, and that certainly was a whole that yeah, just wasn't filled, unfortunately.

Yeah, that is really hard. I, I think my, you know, my dad was always good, you know, even after the separation, he, he would call pretty much every day and he always, you know, asked me about my day and it was always very surface level. And I think that, you know, things with my dad have always been surface level for.

Always but most of the time, but he did, you know, he has pursued me in the sense that, you know, a lot of people don't hear from, from their parents every week, even mm-hmm , you know? And so he, he has been really consistent about that. I do remember even after the divorce, confiding and dad about things that were going on at school and, you know, drama and all that stuff, he was very receptive and, you know, definitely emphasized, you know, you can always talk to me about this kind of thing.

And unfortunately, I think as I got older, I just got more guarded around him. So I kind of, I think that was lost to a degree. And I think then he just didn't know how to, how to pursue, but he has always been really good about checking in and my mom, you know, she. , she was always very encouraging and I, I played violin for a long time and she was always very like supportive and encouraging of that and of my writing.

Um, so I definitely felt like seen and yeah, just that she really cared about, about me because of, of how much she encouraged me with those things that she knew I cared about. So I think that that was really good. I think, you know, on an emotional level, that's probably where, you know, there was a lack from both of them.

And again, I think part of it was just like what you were saying before of their generation and how they were raised. Um, and then I think part of it too, was. As we've been saying, like the divorce and what they've been going through and yeah. Being, being emotionally tapped out. So, so I do think there was good there.

Um, and I think that there was, you know, some struggles as well. Sure. No, that makes sense. Yeah. The next need is you needed your parents to regulate your affect and affect is again, kind of this funny word, but basically affect means your internal, emotional state. That felt sense of what's happening inside of you.

And that's what Adam Young explains that. And he says that there's kind of a range of feelings that we experience everything from, you know, numb and shut down to terrified and panicked kind of the heightened side of the spectrum. And so when you're stressed out, he says your affect is dysregulated.

That's how psychologists talk about it. And as children, we had very little ability to regulate our. To kind of recognize what was happening inside of us and do something about it. And infants, especially have zero ability to do that. They're completely reliant on their mother on their father. And so it's so important when we were children that if, um, we were hungry and tired or afraid that we had our parents there to soothe us, to comfort us, he says, and you know, even if we were getting numb or kind shut down, we needed someone there to stimulate us to prevent us from kind of going numb.

And yeah, he says, Adam Young says that to be effective at regulating your affect a parent needs to do basically all of the prior three things that we talked about, uh, attunement, responsiveness, and engagement. And by watching them do that for us, especially as young children, we learn to do it for ourselves.

And so, um, if that didn't happen, if your affect was not regulated, uh, then you would've been forced to do it yourself. If your parent didn't do it for you. And like I mentioned, If you're young, especially, uh, you don't have the ability to do that, or maybe you're going through something traumatic where there's a lot of overwhelming emotions.

You really need someone to walk through you with that who has more capacity to deal with those difficult things in your life. And if that didn't happen, then it leaves a lot of damage. And again, go into my own story. I, I felt this so much after the separation emotionally inside edge, it was just a mess and I didn't know how to deal with it like Miranda.

I'm sure you can relate. I was angry. I was depressed. I was anxious and I just found no comfort or relief in my parents, to be honest. And again, they were just so consumed, uh, with what was going on in their own lives that I ended up looking for comfort elsewhere, just trying to regulate, you know, my own affect, just deal with my own emotions by, you know, looking up porn.

By, you know, kind of diving into sports and just kind of escaping into, you know, just different things in my life. And so definitely, definitely had struggles there. And I think in some ways I still do, I'm made a lot of progress with this, but, um, it is, it's such a real need, isn't it? Yeah, no, it totally is.

And I think with, with my mom, a lot of times when I was angry and I expressed that, um, which I think she saw a lot more of that than my dad did after the separation. She, her response was to also get angry and I get it, you know, I think I, you know, I can kind of understand why that would be her response.

And I probably said some hurtful things. I mean, not probably, I, I, I think I do remember saying things that were, that were mean or hurtful, but like you said, you need someone when you're young to kind of help you learn how to. Manage your anger. And I think for me, you know, the response I got was like, I don't want this, you know, I don't wanna see this.

This is, this is wrong. I think dad was more when, you know, the few times that I did express strong emotions around him, he was more common wanting to help. Um, but I think the challenge has been feeling comfortable expressing those around him. And then there have been, like I said, a few times where he, he just didn't didn't respond well, you know, kind of made light of it.

And I think that kind of has stopped me from continuing to, yeah. To be open with open and honest with him. So I, from that, I think I kind of learned to suppress, especially when I was just hurting and to hide what I was feeling or at the very least not to talk about it. And I've seen that. Come to fruition a lot in my marriage.

And before that, when we, my husband and I were dating, just not wanting to talk about what I was feeling and that being really frustrating for him. He can tell something's wrong. He can tell, tell I'm upset, but I, I feel like I can't open up to him about it. Wow. That's profound. So yeah, you basically just learn that response to like regulate your affect and that carried into your own marriage and, and it makes so much sense.

And that brings us to the next need. Adam Young says that you needed your parents to be strong enough to handle. Negative emotions. And so he asked the question, you know, how did your parents react to your negative emotions? Like anger, sadness, fear, like, what did they do? And Miranda, you just talked about that.

He says that, you know, we needed them to like, we needed to be free. To express those negative emotions as children, knowing that we would be responded to in a positive way. And, and he says that you needed to know your emotions were accepted and allowed. And even to the point where you feel free to say, like I hit you or you're mean, or something kind of shocking and extreme without getting scolded or shamed or told that.

Know that wasn't appropriate. And this is kind of shocking to hear. I think a lot of parents struggle with this one because especially parents who wanna raise, I think this is almost everyone. Like you wanna raise good kids and having hearing them say these strong things, because they feel strongly about something can be really hard.

But I experienced that as well in my own family where, when I felt something strongly, I, especially on my dad's side, it was kind of the opposite with my dad. He would react kind of with the, a stronger emotion. Like if I felt angry, he would get even angrier. And so then I learned also to suppress and with my mom too, there was just kind of this sense that, okay, anger is bad because we've, you know, experienced, uh, in different ways.

People getting really angry and it not having a good, um, ending and. One of the things Adam Young said is that, uh, your child should feel free to express rage at you. So this kind of goes back to what you said before Miranda with like feeling wrath yet your, your child should feel free to express that rage at you.

And, um, one of the problems that he points at when it comes to this need, um, he says that perhaps your family was too fragile to bear the weight of your unedited soul. And, and this one really, really struck me well. And I think one of the things I saw, especially in my dad was, um, yeah, because he struggled with his own anger.

I tended to follow suit and then feel that, oh, I can't express anger to him because that would just evoke a greater anger. That would just not end well, well, I mean, I did, yeah. I kind of addressed that before, but I did, I was shocked when he kind of talked about, you know, the, the two stories of his little kids of how they express.

Their anger towards him. And, um, it's hard to imagine. Like I do think that that's heartbreaking, you know, as a parent, like, or, or it's just infuriating, you know, I'm glad he said that because I don't think, I would've thought that was the appropriate response. Cuz my thought would've been, you know, you need to be respectful.

You need to just treat your parents, you know, with respect. And so, and not to say that they shouldn't, but you know, he is saying, you know, we tell, we need to allow room. We need to allow them the space to experience breath, and then to teach them how to, how to handle it. But it was kind of, it did catch me off guard when, when he talked about, you know, like it's okay for them to.

To express that and it's okay for them to almost like, let it out, you know, on you, um, whatever they're experiencing and it's not something to me, it didn't seem something that was very intuitive and maybe that's just cuz of my own experience, but I was definitely, yeah, just kind of taken aback a little bit me as well.

Yeah. And, um, Yeah. Just, I think like you were saying just the results. If we don't feel that freedom is suppression and that's always gonna come out in some other way. And so I think it's, it's better to, like you said, to be there with your kids in those difficult emotions and teach them how to handle them and what to do, what action to take as a result of what they feel as opposed to just like shoving it away.

And then they're just gonna, like, we've been saying, they're gonna have to deal with it on their own. And, and that brings us to the last point, which is you needed your parents to, um, yeah. Have a willingness to repair when there was a disconnect when there was disconnection, uh, especially when they hurt you.

He says, and, and, uh, Adam Young says, this is a direct quote. He said, when your parents hurt you, did they own and rectify, rectify the harm they did. A healthy, trusting attachment is not built on the absence of failure. All parents fail many, many times a healthy relationship is not built on the absence of failure, but on the willingness of the parent to own and rectify the failures.

When they do occur. And so he just, again, emphasizes that no parent gets it right. A hundred percent of the time, even the best parents, like you pointed out before Miranda. And he says, that's, that's no big deal. What really matters is that when there is a break in their relationship, when there is an issue, a misattunement, uh, that there is reattunement that we connect again, that there's re-engagement that things are made, right?

There's um, an apology, there's a conversation, something to reconnect, to bring comfort into the relationship. And, uh, growing up, my mom was pretty good at this actually at, at the reconnecting, she was, you know, willing to apologize, even if at times it was hard, uh, with my dad, this was a struggle. And I think a lot of men struggle with this because we tend to have these big egos.

I, you know, was thinking and preparing for this show. I was like trying to remember a time where he apologized for something, especially like that was bigger. And I, I struggled with that. And so I, I think he, you know, had a hard time admitting when he was at fault. And again, I think a lot of parents have this issue, especially fathers, maybe feeling like we can't show weakness or we're expected to get everything right.

And so we don't admit when we're wrong. And that was really damaging and inhibited caused us not to have that reconnection because there was just this whole line of things that were never addressed, that we were just like carrying around with us. So it's certainly it's this maybe is the most important of them all to, um, repair when there is, uh, that disconnect.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think for me, it was a little bit flipped. I mean, I had a lot more conflict with mom because. You know, I was with her more. Um, and she, she just wouldn't apologize. Um, we always had to be the ones to seek her out after a conflict. And I think that that's something that led me and my siblings to be extremely conflict diverse, cuz we were afraid of her anger and we were afraid of not, you know, getting the love back, you know?

And so yeah, I think that was hard. And then with dad, it was just, we, we really rarely fought because again, like I just, I didn't feel that closeness with him. So it was more like if it was fighting, it was more like I'm annoyed, you know? So it wasn't really a true fight that that required like a, an apology or something like that.

And yeah, so I, I don't, I don't think I really had an experience. I think the one time, you know, where. I felt like an apology was owed was, you know, when he, we had a conversation about the fact that he left, you know, left the family, but also left the country like right after the divorce and how that really affected me.

And, you know, for him, he couldn't see where he had done wrong. He just said, you know, I did what I had to do and it wasn't about you, you know, but I think I really needed a tea here, you know, I'm sorry that you felt abandoned. And I think it's just like a lack of understanding. So I do think that that repairing disconnect was a hard one for us.

Absolutely. So just to summarize everything, uh, the first need is attunement next responsiveness, third engagement. Fourth, uh, regulate your affect fifth strong enough to handle negative emotions and then six, uh, your parents' willingness to repair when there was disconnection. And so a lot to talk about here, but yeah.

How do we do this right. Miranda? What, what are we gonna do with our own kids in the future? Uh, a few thoughts on my end. Like some things I wanna do I think, to, to do this stuff right. To fill those six needs the right way, um, is just being really intentional about it. Just focusing on it, having that desire and keeping that front of mind.

Uh, I think also curiosity is needed, especially when it comes to atunement like paying attention to, you know, just different shifts and moods or things that are happening with your children and reading their faces and asking good questions and then digging deeper when something is kind of unclear.

You're not quite sure what's going on. And then I think another thing too is just prioritizing time with your children and just. Being a good parent and just understanding that, yeah, you can go work for 80 hours a week and make a ton of money, but you're gonna leave your children bankrupt, emotionally, if you are not there for them, you're not emotionally engaging with them.

So I think one of the things I think so hard for all of us, but especially for parents, is just letting go of the less important things because being a parent, uh, so I'm told I'm not one yet. Well, I am one now, but I don't have our baby here. It it's so important to make sure that we're spending lots of time, uh, with, with our kids.

And so those are a few things. I think a growth mindset's really important as well. Just understanding that we can get better. We can change, we can grow. We're not stuck. And, uh, and then, like we mentioned at a few points, like healing our own brokenness so that we are not just passing that on to our kids are so consumed by it that we're damaging them or neglecting them.

And, uh, you know, having a plan too, with our kids, like I've heard some parents do individual date nights with their kids. Uh, we had, uh, Justin bad on this show who, uh, you know, runs daddy Saturday. So he spends like every Saturday with his kids, he spent over, I think it's 14,000 hours with his kids, which was just amazing, you know, when it comes to the negative emotions thing, I think it's so important to like tell your kids, this is one of the things I wanna really clearly communicate to my kids is that it's okay to have those negative emotions to feel them.

They're actually, they're there for a reason and we need to teach them that and teach them, uh, how to handle those well, and, and don't shame them when they feel them. There's nothing wrong with them. And then of course, you know, modeling, uh, in your marriage, like how to do all these things right between you and your spouse, like having that attunement with your spouse.

Obviously it's not the same as like a parent-child relationship, but just recognizing things. Healing the relationship, if something goes wrong and along with that is having the, uh, humility to admit when you're wrong and to make that relationship. Right. And, um, yeah, just to expect there to be breaks in the relationship, but then always be working toward it.

So, yeah, just in closing Miranda, what were some final thoughts that you would give to everyone, um, on how to do this? Right. And how you wanna do that right. In your own parenting. Yeah. I mean, I definitely think that everything you said is very true and I think it'll be very helpful. Um, I, I had present moment awareness kind of like what you said about paying attention.

Um, just trying to, to yeah. Be present, um, which I think can be hard, cuz like you said, we get distracted by a whole lot of things, but I think trying as much as possible to, to just be in the moment with your kids. I also think self care is important. Like I, I do. I do think it, you know, obviously you have to put your, your kids first, you know, they, they can't take, especially when they're really young, like they can't take care of themselves.

So you have to, you have to make sure that their needs are being met. But I do think that it's not an excuse to like stop taking care of yourself spiritually, physically, emotionally, you know? So if you, if there's some wounds you need to work on like, make time for therapy or, or journaling or, or something like that.

If, if you are feeling, you know, really tired, like, okay, like how can you get more sleep? Like how, you know, how can you make sure that you're, you're being the best parent that you can be? And a lot of that is just making sure that you are taken care of, like you're, you're taking care of yourself. You know, if, if you like setting aside time for prayer, just time to, you know, better yourself as a person.

I think that's really important. And. Yeah. If you have wounds, like you said, like struggles, which we all do taking the time to, to work through those. And if you're not, if you don't know where to start, if you're overwhelmed, like asking for help. Um, I think empathizing is really important, um, learning that's skill, which it can be learned, you know, if, if we're not there yet, that's okay.

But, um, more and more trying to step into the experience of other people and especially of our kids. I think, you know, trying not to take things personally, especially when your kids having a bad day, when there is a temper tantrum, when, you know, I think it sometimes does feel really personal mm-hmm . And so it's like, okay, like this isn't necessarily about me, you know, something's going on in their world.

That's causing them to be unhappy and trying to help them through that instead of getting defensive or upset because. You feel like they're making your life more difficult, having that space between the reaction and the response? I think those are, those are some things. And just remembering, like you have to set the example for how to handle emotion.

So like if you fly off the handle, when things don't go well, that's very likely that your kids are gonna learn to do that too. I think there is gonna be conflict. There is going to be hurt. And, you know, kind of like we, we were talking about with reconciliation, just always making sure that the kid knows that they're loved, you know, even when you're upset, even when you're disappointed, you know, I love you.

Even if it's, it's kind of tense right now, I love you. And that, you know, having the humility to, to, to apologize when, when you do mess up, because we all do and we all will. Yeah. I think those are some things. That could help with these six things that Adam Young talks about. So good Miranda, thanks for your insight.

Thanks for your time. I hope this has been helpful to all of you listening and definitely recommend listening to episode two of the place we find ourselves. If you wanna reflect on this more about how you, um, you know, have these needs filled, or maybe not filled by your parents growing up and what you can do in the future, uh, when it comes time for you to become a parent.

So Miranda, thank you so much for your time. Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me.

Thanks so much for listening. Definitely a long episode, but I hope it was valuable for you. My question for you to reflect on is what lessons did you learn from your parents that you wanna repeat with your own kids one day? And which ones do you not wanna repeat? Think about that. Give us some thought, write them down.

Talk to your husband or wife about 'em. If you're married or if you're engaged or dating someone, talk to your significant other. It's really, really good to have these conversations now so that we can bring about those changes that we wanna enact with our own kids. If ReSTOR has helped you in any way, we'd love to hear about it, whether this podcast has been helpful or maybe a blog article, or really anything that we do, if it's been helpful for you, we wanna hear about it.

And some of the benefits from telling us how we've helped you is it gives us insight into what is most valuable for you. So we can double down on that and do more of it. It also helps us to set strategy for the future so we can keep serving you. And it shows other people who maybe aren't aware of our work, how effective it can be, which may convince them to, to use our content and the tools that we offer.

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#045: How to Become the Dad You Wish You Had | Justin Batt

It’s no secret that we’re facing a huge crisis of fatherlessness. So many fathers have physically or emotionally abandoned their children, largely because nobody ever showed them how to be a great dad. This problem is at the root of so many issues in our world. So, what’s the solution?

In this episode, Justin Batt from Daddy Saturday offers advice and encouragement to current or future dads on how to raise good kids who become great adults. We discuss:

• How do we fix the fatherlessness crisis?

• Practical advice on how to become a great dad from a father who’s spent 14,000 hours and 500 intentional Saturdays with his kids

• Encouragement for any men out there who feel like they don’t have what it takes to be a great father, especially because you didn’t receive it from your dad growing up

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

It's probably no surprise to you that we're facing a huge crisis of fatherlessness in our world where dads abandon their kids, either physically leaving or emotionally checking out. And as those of us who come from broken homes know this is extremely painful. It's extremely difficult. So many of us have experienced fathers who just left or at least emotionally checked out.

From our lives and not all of us have experienced that, right? Some of us have great fathers, even when our parents' marriage broke apart, but all of us can agree. This is a huge problem. And it's at the root of so many of the other problems that we see in our culture today. But there is a solution which we're gonna discuss in this episode.

And if you're not a dad, Keep listening. This is good stuff. It still applies to you, whether fatherhood's maybe two years away or 10 years away. And ladies listening right now, maybe you're married. Maybe you're not, but this is gonna be a great resource. Both this episode itself and my guests and his nonprofit for any men in your life who again, wanna become fathers and maybe they are fathers now.

So lots of good stuff in here for you as well. And what you're gonna get out of this episode, everyone is we're gonna talk about how serious. Is this crisis of fatherlessness and how do we fix it? You're gonna get practical advice on how to start becoming a great dad, perhaps even the, the father that you never had, that, that you wish you had from a dad who spent 14,000 hours and 500 intentional Saturdays.

With his kids and my guest gives encouragement to any of you men out there, especially who come from broken families, who, who feel like you just don't have what it takes to be a great dad. Like you're, you're not capable of doing that. So a lot of great content ahead. Keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Elli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 40. Before we dive into the episode, I wanna make sure you know, that you can submit a question for us to answer on the show, either answered by my guest or answered by me.

It's really exciting. We wanna hear directly from you here, the challenges that you're struggling with and the questions that you have when it comes to navigating the pain and the problems from your parents' divorce separation are broken marriage. And some of the benefits you can ask, anything that you want.

Like maybe you. Stuck in life right now. And you're not sure how to get unstuck and how to heal and, and move on with your life. Or maybe you're someone who loves or leads someone who comes from a broken family. And you're not sure, like how do you go about helping them? Whatever your question. We're gonna give you specific and practical answers right here on the show.

So if you wanna submit a question to us, just go to restored ministry. Dot com slash ask Joey again, restored ministry ministry, singular.com/ask Joey, just one word on that page. Just fill out the form, submit your question. And then as we're able, we'll answer your question on the show. Feel free to even pause this episode right now.

Go ask your question and then come back to finish the. Super thrilled that it have Justin bat on the show. Justin's an incredible man found out about him recently in his nonprofit daddy Saturday, which I'm gonna tell you about in a second, but Justin aims to disrupt fatherhood with intentionality by creating intentional fathers who raise good kids who become.

Great adults. And like I mentioned, he founded daddy Saturday in his own backyard with his four children. And it's grown into this national movement, engaging fathers across multiple channels, including YouTube, social media, the daddy Saturday book, uh, and Alexa skill, a podcast merchandise live events and a 5 0 1 C3 foundation through which Justin plans to impact 10 million fathers in the next.

10 years. It was incredible. In addition, Justin is a highly sought after healthcare consultant and a successful serial entrepreneur, as well as a TEDx and international public speaker, a multi published author and a regular guest on multiple. Podcast. And when he is not at work, Justin can be found helping his wife, Heather run her bridal enterprise and spending time with his four children and the family's bead doodle named weekend.

Super thrilled to have Justin on the show. Let's not wait any longer. Here's my interview with

Justin. Thanks so much for being here. A huge fan of your work. Hey, Joey. So good to be on with you as well. Thank you for having. Absolutely. You talk a lot about the crisis of fatherlessness that we're facing in our world, if you would, what do you mean by that? And how serious is this crisis? Well, when you look at most of the, we call 'em societal ills.

So most of the, the negative consequences that are impacting our society today, not just in America, but around the world, think of things like suicide, depression, anxiety, even some of the school shootings, teenage pregnancy. Divorced down the road. A lot of these issues that we have in our world are caused by fatherlessness.

When you think about human trafficking, which is a, an epidemic in and of itself today, I talked to a major leader in the space and I said, how many of the kids that you've rescued? The thousands of kids didn't have a father in the home. And he said a hundred percent. So even things like human trafficking are part of this and the fatherlessness epidemic.

Is because of two areas. One is the lack of a biological father living in the home. There's over 24 million kids in America today. They don't have a biological father living in the home and there's millions more that have a dad who's in the home, but he's physically present and emotionally absent.

That's another form of fatherlessness. And so through our organization, daddy, Saturday, we work to address both sides of that fatherlessness. And really help the dads who are in the home, be intentional and engaged, and also support those kids that don't have a father or father figure in their lives.

Incredible. This is such a massive pro uh, problem and project that you're taking on. So I'm, I'm really grateful for the work that you do. Um, let's get into this solution a little bit more to this big problem. What is this solution? And I know your work daddy Saturday is, is a big part of that solution. So tell us if you would a little bit about.

Well, I think you gotta look at both sides of that fatherless in his coin. And if you look at the fathers who are in the home, a big part of that is, you know, as dads, I've got four kids, I've been a dad now for 13 years. And when we had our first daughter, I didn't know anything about fatherhood. I learned fatherhood from my father and he wasn't a perfect dad.

I took the example that he had said and tried to apply some of those things and do a few things better in my own life. And I read some books and, you know, watched some YouTube videos. And that was my role of trying to figure out. What fatherhood was about. I'm also, I'm, I'm a man of faith. I'm a Christian.

So I, I went to the Bible and looked for some examples there. And, you know, there's just not a lot of fatherhood, frankly. That's out there. And most of the stuff was also from PhDs and was on the, the topic of more theology or theory around fatherhood. There wasn't a lot of practical advice on being a dad.

And so I figured it out like most dads do and stumbled process that first claims wanna be a good dad. They wanna be engaged. but they have a challenge. And that challenge is the fact that once they start to, to get into it and they have a few issues or stumbling blocks, then they kind of just go dark and they say, I, I don't know what I'm doing.

I don't know how to figure this thing out. I'm, I'm insecure. I'm feeling inadequate, I'm ill equipped. And so they start to shut down as a dad. And I think that the role and the goal of solving that is by helping fathers, reengage and reign. Their their role in their calling to be an intentional and engaged dad.

And that we're intentionality is really the core of our platform and how we help those dads, how I've helped myself, uh, engage my kids, creating epic moments and epic memories and building a legacy and helping them identify their calling. So they become good kids that become great adults. That's one side of that.

The other side is the child who doesn't have a father or father figure in their. And to address that issue. We need to equip them with education and help them understand and, and gain knowledge and access to knowledge that a father, father figure would provide for them. We also need to allow them to bump up against and aside really strong and great men who can show them what, what true masculinity is and what the role of a father.

That can be through coaches and mentors, teachers, church leaders, et cetera. So there's lots of ways to do that, but those are the two forms of fatherlessness. Two summaries of how we address both of those. So good. And in my own life, just having struggles in my own family, you know, in my relationship with my dad, the breakdown of my parents' marriage and all of that, I have to say, like you mentioned mentors, that's been so healing and so helpful for me in becoming, uh, the man that I wanna be the man that God wants me to be.

And so I, I love that you're approaching it like that. And you're, you know, not just giving a generic solution, you're really looking at the problem, understanding it and going after it, I wanna shift gears a little bit and speak to all the, the new fathers listening and the future fathers, all those men out there.

What are some practical things dads can do? Uh, even right now, for those of us who, who are dads to, to fill their kids' needs. Great question. And I'll tell you, it's really interesting. I've got, we live south of Nashville, Tennessee, and I have a lot of young men in their late twenties, early thirties. Most of them are not even fathers yet or even married yet.

And they're kind of coming around me because they, they want to learn. They have this earnest desire to be a good father, be a great father and, and they wanna start to equip themselves even well before they're ready for. And I love seeing that. I just, I'm still young enough that I'm relevant and they can see maybe a vision of what they, they want in the future.

You know, I'm not perfect. It looks something like what we have to my wife and I, and our four kids, but I'm not old enough that I'm still not relevant in space. So sure. This question is really, really top of mind for me right now, because I have all these young men around me and they're craving for that knowledge and craving for that advice.

So what I would tell any young man or young father. there's a couple of key principles. The first one is to recognize that not your job to be your kid's hero. I think that's really important to understand you need to be your kid's guide, because if you're your kid's hero, then what happens is you take the role of them achieving success or failure in their own life.

Oftentimes that's preventing them from experiencing failure, which they need to have at a young age when it's inconsequential. Right. Failure at, at 2, 3, 4, even eight years old is way different than failure at 22 32 42. Absolutely. And so if you experience failure in your youth, then you understand that process and, and have the mechanisms for dealing with failure for failing forward.

And understanding failure can be a superpower if done, if done. Right. And well, and so when you also serve as a guide, and this is really key for young men and young fathers is you allow other guides to come into your kids' lives and come into your life to serve where you don't have areas of expertise.

So that may be in the form of another man. Who's older than you, who you see someone that's in the, the church community or business community. What have you. That is a, is an example of the type of father you want to be. Maybe if you didn't have that kind of dad finding someone else who can mentor you as a father and give you a peek behind the door, around the corner for what that's gonna look like and what you need to know, that's what our platform tries to do.

So that's one thing I think the other thing is if your kids get a little bit older, it allows you to bring those guides into your kids' life and serve your kids by giving them experiences or skill sets that you can't give them for. I am not handy at all. Like I'm no chip gain I didn't grow up around cars and automobiles.

And so my kids want to build an obstacle course for daddy Saturday. Like I'm not the guy for the job, but I have lots of friends that are, and other dads that are, and so they can help come in and teach my kids skills like carpentry or working on an automobile or even, um, hunting and fishing in certain capacities that I don't have experience around.

My kids have had some of the coolest, most amazing experiences. Because I've let my ego go. I've served as a guide and allow other guides to come into my kids' lives. And that has served both myself and my kids extremely well. I'd also say that when you do that, it gives you a chance to zoom out and have a different perspective on your kids and, and your relationship because you get to just watch your kids and observe, and you'll learn far more about your kids when you're, when you're kind of.

The scenario without perspective then being in it. And as dads, we have a tendency to be in it all the time, doing it, solving it, fixing. and when you zoom out, it gives you a chance to really look at your kids' personality, understand who they are and what they're called to be so good. And I think that takes a lot of pressure off fathers as well.

I'm a, a new dad right now. My wife and I are expecting a baby in about two months here. And we're, we're so excited a little girl on the way. And so I have to admit this interview's a little bit selfish. I wanted to. Learn from you and, and hear, yeah, just the practical things that you would say to, to really start living this out.

Cause I wanna do it right. I wanna do what you said. Um, so I identify a lot with those men, those young men who are coming around you and, and looking for guidance. And so, uh, but yeah, I think, I think it takes pressure off cuz I think dads, uh, and moms, but especially dads, I think we have this expectation and maybe it's our pride that tells us we have to.

Know everything and have everything together. And we have to be the sole source. Like you said, the KIRO, the one who, who rescues the day all the time. Yeah. And, and that's, you know, it's a, it's a myth. We tell ourselves, it's the story we tell ourselves in, in our heads is dads and his men. And you know what?

So my last name is bat. I grew up as a fan of Batman. All my, I have three boys as well as our daughter and Batman is like a concert around our house. So I'm always like, who's my superhero, right? It's Batman, of course, by default, there's some other cool superheroes and great superpowers as well. But I always go back to Batman.

It's kinda like the quote and life always be yourself, unless you can be Batman, always be Batman we live by that in our household. But at the same time, um, I uncovered my superpower and it, it surprised me greatly. And I think it'll probably surprise you as well. My superpower is. I think for any dad, that's what I want you to hear.

New dad, old dad, doesn't matter. Season dad, I should call an old dad a season. Dad sacrifices your superpower. And here's why because I've spent over 14,000 hours engaging my kids combined Saturdays over the last 13 years. I've spent over 500 Saturdays with my kid and plus substantial investment. I don't have a golf game.

I've given them a lot of friendships and relationships. I quit drinking four years ago. Cause alcohol wasn't helping me do my best on those Saturdays. And, and other times with my kid, I. Have given up a lot of hobbies. I don't do long distance athletic events anymore because the training regimen is too much and it pulls me away from my family.

So there are things like that, that I've made huge sacrifices in over time, but those sacrifices are investments in my children investments in my marriage investments, in our legacy together. And I know looking back, it's going be, you know, exponential in terms of the growth and the relationship that we have long term, and it's a big journey.

So my encouragement would be. Really understanding that, you know, what is your superpower as a dad? Your superpower is sacrifice. And sometimes that sacrifice comes in the form will also be quick to say, you're sorry. Been quick to apologize, know you're wrong and to move forward, cuz we're all gonna make mistakes.

There is no perfect dad. Um, you will, you will make. Mistakes you will fall short. Um, it is inevitable. I do it daily and I'm in the space trying to be really great at it and great at it for other people. And I still fall short all the time. Yeah, no, it's so good. And the, the humility factor that, that you mentioned, I think is so important for all of us to hear because man, our egos can be the enemy.

And so I, I love what you said and I also love Batman. my favorite movie. No, no kidding. Uh, is Batman begins. There's just so much in that movie that I resonate with. And so I. I love what you mentioned. Uh, I wanna get a little bit personal here. You, you mentioned that you make mistakes, you've messed up and, and I think that's, uh, really helpful to hear because it, we can learn so much from you.

And so I'm curious, like through those failures, what, what are a couple things that you've learned along the way that, that we can learn from, from you? Well, I think it's really important to understand who you are first as an individual, as, as a person, understand what your trigger points are. Underst. Your personality style.

Are you an Exploder? Are you an imploder right? Are you aggressive? Are you passive aggressive? How do you handle those relationships? What are your fear? Buttons? There's a great book by Gary Smalley called the DNA of relationships. And my two fear buttons were fear of, of controls. Other people controlling me.

The other one was, uh, fear of being invalidated and, oh my goodness. Talk about two fear buttons that kids can step on all the time. There's many times where I feel like things are out of control or I'm losing control, especially with four kids and then being invalidated. Oh my goodness. Right? You're in the middle of a store and your child starts to have a meltdown or starts to behave in a way that is so unbecoming of who you know, that they are or what you would want them to do, or you know what our, our rules are as a.

and like, talk about being invalidated, right? It's like you wanna have one of those Walmart moments on your kids. Mm-hmm . And so how do you understand that process of who you are and what your fear buttons are and what your insecurities are? Because listen, your kids are gonna bring out every single one of those.

They're gonna invalidate you constantly. You're gonna feel like you have many points along the journey, the most selfish, ungrateful people in your life. And I have incredible kids. I mean, they're amazing. but oftentimes other people get their best and we tend to get their worst. So as parents, and that's the way for a lot of parents.

And so just understanding that and what those trigger points are. So that like for me, I go 110 miles an hour. I'm very, very passionate. So my volume can get loud quickly. There are many points where I've had a temper and I've lost my temper at times with my kids. And it is horrible. I hate. and, you know, looking back, those are such moments of regrets in my life as a parent.

And there's still points where I mess up, but I've got the awareness. Now I've got the triggers that I know are gonna happen. And so I can maintain the relationship first, instead of focusing on the result that I maybe want to have happen. And that alone is so important because at the end of the day, when you look at the long tail of father, Your kids, you want them to come around and be around you when they have the option to, and the only way that's gonna happen.

And especially as a new dad to be thinking that long term, it's really important because the way you do that is by relationship. And if you build a relationship, right, and that includes making mistakes and saying, you're sorry, and showing them how to apologize. Then you'll have that long term relationship.

So good. And that goes back to your tagline, which is, you know, raising good kids who become great adults. Like you're not just in it to be your kid's best friend, but you're really thinking long term, which I love just for, for any man out there right now. Who, who comes from a broken home, especially who didn't see what it was like to, to be a good dad.

What encouragement would you give to him? Especially if he just doesn't feel like he has what it takes to be that great father you're talking. Well, what I would say is you have what it takes. You just don't know what it takes. Cause you didn't have that model for you. And that's not your fault. So I would say, I'm sorry, I'm sorry that you didn't have a dad in your life that showed you that.

And, and I, I feel for you and that is a horrible, horrible thing. Um, you may be a, a kid who, or a child who had a, a dad that was in their life, but maybe didn't model things very well and raised you in a way. There was some, some damage done, right? We almost all have a father wound, whether that was abandonment or performance based fathers or authoritarian fathers.

There's a lot of, of ways that we were all raised and issues that we have and wounds that we have your job is to learn what that wound is. It's to achieve healing and offer forgiveness for your father, whether you've met him or he is there or not. And then it's to look at your own relationship with your kids and realize that you don't have to pass that down to your own kid.

That bitter. Is cut out and ends with you. You have the option to choose the father. You want to be to your kids, whether you had a dad or a good dad or not, that's irrelevant. And so you have the power to choose the relationship, the legacy, the memories that you wanna have with your own children. And then it's your role then to take fatherhood seriously and to go out and learn.

Cuz none of us know, we all have that wound. And so what resources are you gonna take advantage of what people you're gonna surround yourself? And how are you going to treat fatherhood as if it's your life's work and you're gonna work at it with everything you have to be the best father you could possibly be.

Love it. Yeah. And that goes back to what you said before. Just this mentality that you can't do it alone, which I greatly appreciate. And again, takes a lot of pressure off knowing that you can lean on other people let's shift over to, uh, to young people who don't have father. how can they, uh, again, these young people who maybe like you said, they didn't have a FA father physically present, or maybe their dad was there, but he was emotionally checked out.

How can they compensate for those needs that dad never filled? And I'm sure this is gonna echo some of the advice you've already given, but I'm curious specifically here, how could they compensate to fill those needs? Well, , you know, that's a really big question. That's the role of the father is to provide so many of those, those values and examples.

And to, to teach, we, we have a principal on daddy Saturday that that says far more is caught than taught. And so, so much of that is just by being around a father, father figure. I have a, a gentleman that I know who's in his sixties and he went to the foster system and was an orphan. It didn't have a dad in his life.

He told me this story that blew my mind. He said he finally was adopted by this, or was in a foster family. And the dad came home for dinner every night. The dad brought his paycheck home and spent his money on his family. And, and he would sit at dinner and he'd have a couple conversations. And the dad came home every single night and he never had that in his whole life.

Those simple things of having a dad come home every night and be there for dinner and spend his money on his family to provide for. Was earth shattering for him. And so I want you just to have perspective, right? That, that no matter what your situation is, you can rise above it and rise out of it. I think that there are going to be deficiencies or areas of, of weakness, or just areas where you have insecurity or have lack of knowledge as a father.

That's going to be natural depending on your situation. It could be greater than others. But what I would challenge everyone with is to say, you've got the ability. To learn and to grow and to rise above all those circumstances. Now how you do that is up to you. But I think that as long as you're motivated to move down that path towards learning and growing and not letting it be a stumbling block, or even an excuse, frankly, or to play the victim mentality, cause it's not gonna get you anywhere.

And that may sound like it's harsh. Um, but at the end of the. You are responsible for your role to your own children as the type of father you want to be. And yes, your father may have had an impact on you and his abandonment or lack of being there may have had a huge impact on you, but there are so many people and resources, and we're creating some resources guys that are gonna blow your mind.

That'll help with this exact same thing that are coming out. They're just not out yet. But, um, I can speak to that and say, there is content. There is, there are books. There are videos there. All sorts of different opportunities to help you grow beyond what you were lacking from your own father. Love it.

Thank you for that. And please tell us a little bit about what are you offering at daddy Saturday, both for dads, and then also for, uh, young people who don't have a dad. So daddy, saturday.com is the hub for everything. It's it's the website. I think we've got a couple of opportunities there that I'll, I'll mention quickly.

So one. For dads who just want information. We're starting a couple of new platforms called the two minute drill. We've got our data Saturday playbook. These are all about ideas. If you can quickly implement easily with your kids to create epic memories together, that's how you be intentional, how you engage 'em um, you can find the book there.

The book is our, our playbook for fatherhood being intentional, super practical. And then we're launching a, a mobile application. The mobile app is gonna house our curriculum called dad boss. Which is all around how you grow as a father and level up and faith, family fitness and finances, and then also develop friendships.

And none of those friendships there'll be virtual communities. You can join based areas of interest like new dads or divorce dads, or girl dads, whatever that is. Um, we're also starting our local community coaches. So you can step up and say, I wanna be a daddy Saturday coach in my local. That will allow you to then be that leader and step up and have other dads join you in community and do amazing epic activities with your kids, as well as their kids and your local community.

So those are some resources for dads, uh, for kids. Oh my gosh. I'm so excited. So, uh, we both know of, or no, Donald Miller story brand business made simple. Um, I just got certified as a business made simple. Awesome. I'm launching a program called kid boss and kid boss is gonna provide life changing business education for every child, which I believe they should have access to.

And it is going to help them become an entrepreneur, start their own business, learn how to do that and do it well and essentially own their future. And so we'll have that opportunity. We'll, we'll teach dads how to help your kids do that. And then we've got a program directly for kids and it's all.

Business made simple story brand hero on a mission, which are, are Donald Miller's, uh, just amazing curriculums. Love it. So good. Congrats on that. I, I didn't know you were a coach and that's, that's amazing. And I look forward to seeing what you produce and, uh, promoting it to, to our audience and really grateful for you for your time.

If people wanna follow you on social and other places, what's the best way to do that. Yeah. So follow me personally, add Justin bat on LinkedIn. That's where you can connect with me. Also, uh, daddy.com, as I mentioned is our hub. And then please also visit all of our social across Facebook, Instagram. We're at daddy Saturday at D daddy Saturday.

You'll see the DS logo and you can't mess this. Awesome. Justin, I wanna give you the last word here. Uh, like you touched on a little bit before, uh, one of the huge fears that those of us who come from broken homes have, is repeating the dysfunction that we experience. We, we don't want that. We're afraid of it, but statistically, we often fall into that.

Like we end up getting divorced. We end up creating the same dysfunction that we experience in our own families. And so. What would you say to someone who just feels very broken right now, a young person? Uh, what encouragement would you give them to just get unstuck in life to start thriving, to just build a better life than they had in the future or in the past?

I'm sorry. Well, I would say this there's this there's this scientific process called epigenetics. And it's the fact that far more was passed on than just your DNA. It was the environment, the experiences of your parents, even your grandparents, and it's all passed. And so you've got that inside of you.

Think of it like an iceberg. And most of us are only willing to look at the tip of the iceberg. And many, very few of us are willing to go down deep and really dig into that and pull that out on the surface and deal with it because the problem is if you don't deal with it, it's still there. Whether you wanna acknowledge it or not.

So my encouragement would be, we've all got that iceberg inside of us. Again, regardless of our circumstances, it's there. The father wound's going to be. So you have to pull it out. You have to deal with it. You have to look at what caused it, what you would do differently, how you would do that and start to analyze the process.

And when you pull it out, as painful as it can be the necessary process and outta that pain can come, purpose can come potential. And what I would say is that every single one of you listening as a potential dad as a current dad, um, future dad, whatever your circumstance. You have the potential to be an incredible dad to your kids.

It's inside of you again, regardless of your circumstances, it's just up to you pull it out, own it. And if we can be a small help in that process, we're glad to do it.

One big takeaway from me. You don't have to be perfect. I mentioned that a couple times in the show, cause I think it's so important to remember cuz I think dads and moms too, parents in general, feel this pressure to get it all right. To be perfect, to not mess up. And Justin's really giving us permission saying no, you're gonna mess up.

It's gonna happen. Be prepared for it. In fact, expect it. Just be ready to learn and. From your mistakes. And I think that's so, so helpful and it takes so much pressure off so that you can just focus on becoming a better, stronger parent, a better, stronger father than just maybe beating yourself up for failing in a way that you thought you were supposed to be perfect.

And I think there's a lot of. Pride there as well. When we feel that now we can't mess up. We have to be perfect. We have to be that superhero for our kids and never make any mistakes. And so it's refreshing to hear like, no, you don't need to be perfect. And in order to become better though, uh, we need to rely on other people, like Justin said, like, like we need to check our egos.

We need to rely on other people. Not think that we can do it all alone. And make use of the resources like Justin's nonprofit and the things that he mentioned, the book and his podcasts, and just make use of those resources so that we can become the father that we wish we had. And so one question for you to kind of chew on is what did you learn about fatherhood from your own dad?

And maybe you had a great father and you learned a lot of great things from your dad, but maybe you didn't and you learned a lot of unhealthy things. Maybe you learned lies about fatherhood and even. Masculinity. And so give that some thought, like, what did you learn from your dad when it comes to fatherhood?

And if you wanna, you can write those out. You can put 'em into words, you can talk to someone about it, but definitely give this some thought, think about it. I think this is an important step and becoming, uh, the father that you wish you had. And so give this some thought, give this some. If you want more from Justin, I invite you to buy his book.

Daddy's Saturday. Uh, you can click on the link in the show notes to buy the book or just buy it from wherever you buy books. Like Amazon, the resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 45. Thank you guys so much for listening. We do this for you, and if it's been useful, I invite you to subscribe and to.

This podcast and always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#044: Practical Tips for Becoming a Great Parent | Mike & Alicia Hernon

For most people, becoming a parent is beautiful but also scary and intimidating. But that is especially true for people from broken families. Often, we didn’t see a great example of parenthood, so we feel lost and unsure how to do it ourselves.

In this episode, we talk parenting with Mike and Alicia Hernon, the parents of 10 kids and leaders of a ministry for parents called The Messy Family Project. We discuss:

• How his parents’ divorce affected Mike as a husband and father

• Fears he had about becoming a father, how he overcame them, and how you can too

• Should you put your marriage first or your children first and why is that important?

• Lots of practical parenting tips, especially for new parents

• Encouragement if you feel like you don’t have what it takes to be a good parent because you never experienced it in your family 

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

For most people becoming a parent is a really beautiful thing, but it's also scary. It's also intimidating and that's especially true for those of us who come from broken families. So often we didn't see a great example from maybe one or both parents of what it looks like. To be a great parent. So when it's our turn, we feel a bit lost.

Like we don't know how to do it. We don't know how to be a great parent. And we lack the confidence that we need to be a great parent. And so today we talk parenting with a married couple who has 10 kids. You heard that, right? They have 10 children. They also run a non-profit for parents called the messy family project.

The husband Mike, he comes from a broken home. And so he shares his story and how alcoholism really played a big role in the breakdown of his family's parents' marriage, which so many of us deal with and where you're gonna get out of this episode, by listening to it, you're gonna hear us discuss how his parents divorce affected him as a father and a husband.

He shares some of the fears that he had as a father and how he overcame them. Lots of good lessons that we can take and use. We discussed the question. Should you put your marriage. Or should you put your kids first? And we talk about why that's a super important question to ask and my guests get pretty vulnerable and they share how they've failed as parents and what they've learned because of it.

So we can learn from them and avoid making those mistakes in the first place. They also give a lot of great practical tips on parenting, especially for new parents out there. And finally, anyone out there who feels like they don't have what it takes to, to be a great parent, because maybe you didn't see that growing up.

They give a lot of encouragement and some advice on how to deal with that and how to overcome then how to be a great parent, very refreshing conversation, full of hope, lot a practical advice. And even if you're not a parent now, but you hope to be one day, you're gonna get a lot out of the episode. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation of broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 44 and today I speak with Mike and Alicia Hernan. They're the proud parents of 10 children ranging from eight to 25 years old.

They also lead the messy family project, a ministry seeking to encourage and empower parents in building vibrant families. Their podcast has grown to over 10,000 families listening every month. It's probably even more than that at this point. And they've been guests on shows such as the Catholic TV network EWTN.

Mike's actually hosted shows on EEW, TN, and he's appeared on Fox news, CNN and NPR, their children. They. Are the greatest joy in life. And as a family, they love to play music theater, playing board games and watching the Philadelphia Eagles, which my wife will be happy about. Cuz she is a Philly girl. She loves the Eagles and Mike and Alicia say that their home is always loud.

It's active and it's busy. And on a person I have to say they, they have a really beautiful family. I've been to their home. I met Alicia years ago after college, I went to Italy to teach English for two months. I lived over there for two months in Italy, just awesome experience. But in order to get that job, I had to submit a video of me teaching kids in English lesson.

And so Mike and Alicia were super generous and allowing me to work with their kids, uh, to make that video, uh, it was successful. I did get the job and it was just an awesome experience. So I have interacted with, with Mike Alicia and their kids and I just have. Beautiful family. They're everything that you would want them to be.

And they've built a really beautiful family, a really beautiful marriage. And so I'm excited for you to learn from them about parenting. You'll hear in the show also that Bridget and I, my wife are expecting a baby girl. So this is actually our second pregnancy. Our first pregnancy, we, we had a miscarriage was really difficult thing to go through, but now, uh, we've had a successful pregnancy.

Everything's looking good so far. So in two months, our baby girl will arrive. We cannot wait to meet her. I can't wait to meet her. Uh, it is super exciting. It's beautiful, but it's also kind of intimidating. This is a new chapter for us is gonna bring new challenges, but also, uh, you know, new joy, new meaning into our lives.

So please, uh, keep us in your prayers and I'm super excited to learn from this conversation with you because I'm a new dad. And so here's my conversation with Mike and Alicia,

Mike and Alicia. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Uh, it is great to be with you, Joey. Thanks for inviting us. Yeah. Thanks for having us, Mike. I, I didn't know that you were a child of divorce. I had, I knew about you cuz I went to Franciscan and uh, we have mutual friends, but I didn't know that you came from a broken home and apparently we both spoke at, uh, the same event recently.

And so I wanna. Start there. Uh, Mike, I'd love for, if you could just give us a summary of your story. I'm sure we could do a whole podcast episode on, on your story, but yeah. Give us a little bit of a background. Sure. Um, so I, I was raised in, um, in New York and I came from a, um, you know, my, my father was an, um, alcoholic, a recovering alcoholic and my parents got divorced, separated first.

And then, uh, ultimately got divorced, uh, in my early teen years. Uh, right. As I was getting into high school, I was thinking, gonna say New York, Irish Catholic alcoholic. Right. How many? That's just like every, so many people's story. Right. And, and I, for me, it was, um, you know, it was, it was a, a lull, uh, after my parents' divorce.

Yeah. Uh, there was some quiet in the home, but there was a lot of carnage, you know, I was always looking for, uh, peace. I think I was looking for some kind of escape and, and, uh, I actually started down the same path as my dad, uh, and early teen, I began drinking, but it wasn't until I, uh, kind of played my life forward for whatever reason, as a, as a teenager and saw I was heading down a path of destruction, it was grace and it was, yeah.

And I, I have to say, I think it was my mom's prayers, uh, that, that kind of shook me, uh, and woke me up to the fact that I was a mess and my life was a mess and through counseling, through prayer and, uh, just some good, good friends, uh, was able to really, you know, deal with that over, over the next number of years.

But for me, it was, it was a moment where I remember looking back and saying, this isn't what marriage is about. And this isn't what family life is about. Yeah. And I, I was looking from a very early teen years saying, um, what, what is marriage? What is family? And looking for models because I was, uh, You know, I, I, I, I knew what I had.

Wasn't the, the model, the perfect model. And I wanted something better. Mm-hmm so, anyway, I, I, I could go on, we actually did it recently, just did a whole podcast, um, on this, but I, I, um, I look back at that moment of my parents' divorce and although it had so much loss and so much pain and so much wounds that came from it, um, it also was a pivotal moment where I think we're doing.

Uh, you know, with our, our marriage and family, uh, effort that we're doing right now, the organization that we're leading I think was really birthed through that. And so out of my struggle and out of our, my woundedness, uh, it has, has changed and affected me as a husband and as a father, and has really brought me to a place where my faith is, is alive and real for me, because I, I needed something beyond my own ability to fix if you will.

And even though obviously this is Mike's story, not my story, but in walking with him these past 30 years, 30 plus years, you know, through the divorce, cuz he, his parents were divorced when he was 16. And then we met when he was 18. I think it's just important to note that there's several moments of conversion, you know, it's not like, oh, you know, in Mike's whole story, it's like the divorce was a pivotal moment.

And then there. Other pivotal moments after that, where God continued that process of healing and conversion, you know, it's not like we're not healed all at once. It's. You know, God gives us what we can handle at that time. And that's part of the beauty of walk, you know, the journey, the journey. It's not just like, oh great.

Now everything's perfect. I've arrived. You know, I thought it was a one and done thing. I didn't, would it be nice? It was like that, but sorry. No, absolutely. That, that was one of the unique things about this trauma is that it's like, in a way it's like an unending trauma, because most of the time our families don't come back together.

So it's so challenging, but Mike, I relate so much to what you said about just wanting the opposite of what you saw in your family. And I think that's so true for so many people listening right now. Like we desire something better. We don't want to go down the same path that our, our parents went down. We don't wanna repeat the mistakes that we saw in our family dis dysfunction there.

And so it's beautiful to see, like, you guys are so inspiring to see the beautiful family in the marriage that you've built and I'm sure. Yeah. It's been a journey and it's been I'm sure struggles along the way, but I'm curious. Mike specifically looking at you as a husband and a father. Uh, how have you seen your parents divorce affect you in those roles?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the reality is, is that there are probably still ways that I'm still uncovering and I think it's true. It's true for me. And it probably is true for others that I, I, I played forward. Right. You know, I, as a single man looking forward, I wasn't sure I could get married. I wasn't sure if I'd be a good dad, there was fears, there was apprehensions and, you know, counseling really played a role as well as for me a, um, really a spiritual father, uh, that, that stepped in, uh, to really walk me through that if you will, so that I could have a deeper level of confidence entering into marriage and in parent.

But ultimately I would say that it, it, it, the, the fears of am I gonna repeat the same mistakes, uh, of my parents, am I gonna have? And I did have anger issues, you know, and, and, and, uh, things that I had to work through as I became a dad, it was, it is almost as if you can only do so much looking at it, uh, from a distance.

And the real transformation in my life happened in the midst of being a husband and a father. Um, as opposed to, although I did have real fears and kind of concerns coming into this, I was so attracted to my wife. I, I abandoned all fear and abandoned, then no reason and jump in. And, and really that, that saved me, you know, because I, I, again, as, as a, as somebody who, you know, believes in, in God as father, um, I realized that I had a major impediment.

In relating to God as father, because of my own earthly father and wrestling with that, understanding that and getting to a place where I needed to be healed first as a son, before I could become a spouse. And then a father, if that makes sense to you, like my identity needed to be confirmed and affirmed that I was somebody's beloved son.

And as, uh, there's a moment. And, um, my, my eldest daughter, I, I have this moment where. I remember sitting there and I was, was holding this infant who did nothing for me, uh, who all that, that we, we fed her, we clothed her, we woke up with her in the middle of the night. And then as a thanks, she would throw up on us.

She would fill up her diaper, you know, this is, but, but I couldn't, I couldn't just understand how I could love her this much, you know, be it was almost overwhelming. And then I get to a place as I'm I'm sitting there and I hear this whisper of God to me. And now you have a glimpse of how much I love you.

Yeah. And for me it was, it was a, a pivotal moment. Again, I know everyone comes at a different standpoint, but if it was in that gift of me being a father of me, understanding. That I began to even receive love and to be healed and affirmed as a son. Um, and that was really a, a, a pivotal moment, you know, kind of as least Alicia was alluding to, but, you know, that was in the end of the journey.

And there was still lots of things to unpack because I, um, as I, I, I mentioned before, you know, I, I have lots of learned behavior. I have lots of wounds, but also learned behavior, uh, growing up that, of how to deal with what does discipline look like, or how does, you know, anger, uh, play into our lives? You know, and those, those things come out.

you know, all the junk of our past for sure comes out and. I needed to, to keep as a, an adult, uh, to recognize that the, the more that I was able to deal with, my divorce, the divorce that, uh, from my family, um, the, the, the loss that I had of a love of a mom and a dad of the formation, because there were both dealing with their own stuff.

Yeah. I needed to really process that so that I could be a better spouse and a better husband. I dunno if that, that makes sense, but it's just like, uh, there, there's such, there's such a, um, a pull for me to just dive in and feel like I, I should have known, uh, what it was, what it meant to be a father, but because of the divorce, it actually put me in a very humble place where I said, I have, I have no reference point.

And so I was really hungry looking for answers, but realizing I still don't have, uh, all that I need in some ways, but it, it, it kind of gave me the, uh, freedom. To say, okay, let's go find other mentors. Let's find others. And also required me in, in many ways to deal with the garbage that I had been given the, the, the feeling of being broken and having the humility and really the, uh, I guess looking back on it, the courage to admit I was weak, I was wounded and I needed help.

That was a, a big deal because that's not typical for men to want to admit that so that was, that was huge. Absolutely. And yeah, I can relate to so much of that. And you mentioned that, uh, yeah, just having a mentor, an older man who kind of could walk alongside you was so helpful. It was the same for me. Uh, it was actually a spiritual director that I had, uh, there at Franciscan and he was more than a spiritual director.

He was like I mentioned, uh, really just a mentor, able to help me guide me in different areas of life and just his affirmation, uh, of me as a man was just so, so helpful and so healing and yeah. So I, I can totally relate with that. And I think, uh, other people. Who who've walked that path too. They they've found it to be extremely helpful.

You mentioned fears that, that you experienced and you alluded to some of them. Uh, I'm curious, what, what were some of those fears about fatherhood specifically and what was most helpful to overcome those fears? I had to get to a play. Well, I'll do it by way of, I, I thought I was gonna follow in the same footsteps.

Like I felt so under the influence of my father, that I knew when I was a child, as an adult entering into marriage, you know, that, um, I thought I was crippled and I was, I was gonna be set off. And I had really very little, very minimal boundaries between my dad and me in healthy, uh, healthy relationship.

Right. So some word from him could set me off or this, or. and I had a, I had a spiritual, uh, so I'm, I'm not really answering your question, but I'm gonna tell you something but, but I had a, uh, you know, a, a, a, uh, uh, somebody, uh, spiritual father to me say, you really need to work. The, the only path through this is, is forgiveness, but not just a trite, not just a, oh, I forgive you.

It's okay. Move on. It was a know how you were wounded, know how you were hurt, know what, what, uh, was lost and, uh, and really itemize it if you will. Yeah. So as to then say, I forgive you for all of this, uh, and that. That was hard. That was painful. It was a long process if you will, with, with some counseling, uh, involve, this was before we were married.

Yeah. Before, when we were dating. Yeah. And being able to sit down and actually, and again, I don't recommend this for everybody, but I sat down with my dad and went through that. And although through AA, he has, you know, he has, he had, had kind of tried to make, uh, rested, amends and so forth. I don't think he understood from my perspective what had happened.

Um, and by saying that to him, it, it, it changed our relationship dramatically, but I, I ended it with, and, and I forgive you. And there was a release there that, that I felt like I was up until that moment. I was somewhat trapped under his. and, and it wasn't hit by his design, but it, but it was under the, kind of this, this old pattern, this old way of relating this old way of being a man.

I kind of made a, at that moment, made a break and said, you no longer have power over me. And I, I think it's important too, to note that he, when Mike had that conversation with his dad, he wasn't having that conversation to get something from his dad. Right. He didn't need his father to say I'm sorry, or anything, because he had already forgiven him.

He was ready, ready to rare. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, so that conversation was kind of like the, the ending or the culmination. It was kind of like the outward result of something inward that had already happened. And I think that that's why it worked because if he was going there saying, I'm gonna tell you this, and I want you to say, I'm sorry, then you're then, then the father still has that power over him, you know?

Right, right. But he was like, I don't. , you know, I just want you to know, I forgive you I'm I'm and that then he was free. Right. And, and, and just because, um, if I was looking for some great response, right. I, I, I, I, I caught my dad way off guard. Yeah. And he was not, not only not expecting it, it, it, it really, I think shocked him, uh, you know, the, the kind of, some of the detail, but it.

It was important for me, cuz then I actually began a new relationship with my dad. Right. And again, but he's not a bad person. No. And we actually have a really decent relationship now, but it, but it, but again, not everybody's can follow that path and I don't necessarily recommend it, but it, it, it, it brought me new level of freedom.

So that the fear that I, so one of the big fears was, am I gonna let this pass through me? That was probably my greatest fear is that I was gonna let the poison of either alcohol or divorce go from my father, from my parents' marriage through, uh, me to my future bride and children and substantially at that date, I would say that that fear was resolved.

That was probably the biggest thing that was like I a dark cloud. If you will, from teenage years, all the way through thinking my life is heading towards a, a cliff on some level. And that fear was removed, but then there's the, you know, there's still the, I still don't know how to really give myself away to my bride.

I, I still don't know how to deal with my anger and that's something I, that, that, that was probably the, one of the other fears was that I was just not gonna be capable and able to be a dad. Cause I didn't know how to do it. And I didn't have a father that was present. Um, again, I look back on it now and I see much more, so many years later, I see many more bright spots than I probably was willing to appreciate back then, because I think this is for a lot of adult children sure of divorce is that we block out memories, you know, and we have patch.

I have a patchy memory of, of a lot of my childhood. And, um, that, that I think is indicative. At least the way I take it is that it's a self defense mechanism. You know, that there was some, uh, you know, the trauma of divorce, the trauma of the, the tension in the household before that. And I, from my perspective in getting married, like we talked about children and what we wanted out of our family, we talk a lot about those things before we got engaged, you know, and then during engagement.

And I always felt in some ways, and this is gonna sound a little crazy, but that the divorce, you know, was a hidden blessing in a way, because it made Mike so aware of what he didn't know, you know? And I think that I that's true, see some couples and they just kind of like skip into marriage, being like, oh, it'll all work out.

You know, it'll be fine. Mike never had that attitude. I, that was an illusion. I never had that illusion. He never had that illusion. That it's all gonna be fine. Cause he knew, you know what, sometimes it's not fine. You know? And so he was very, very intentional about, I want my family to be different. I want my family to be different than the way I was raised.

And I knew that. From the time we were dating, you know, which is one of the things that was very attractive to me in looking for someone I wanted to have a family with is that I knew, even though he came from this broken background, I knew that he was gonna be so intentional and passionate about being an amazing husband and father.

And I saw him taking steps to learn how to do that in the families that he was with and the spiritual direction that he was having and, you know, and all of those kinds of things. So in a way, it was like, Hey, God can bring good out of everything. You know, he really can. And I feel like that's what he did for us.

It's amazing. Yeah, there was no room for complacency. You had to make a choice one way or the other. And that's beautiful. There was something you mentioned that was really important. I wanna highlight for everyone listening and, and this is just a healing principle across the board, and that is, uh, naming how you've been harmed, identifying your wounds and just really understanding them as if they were a physical disease.

Like in order for a doctor to treat some illness first, they have to diagnose it. They have to understand it. And so one counselor that, that we love, uh, Adam Young, he has the podcast, the place we find ourselves awesome podcast. He says that when it comes to experiencing healing, naming how you've been harmed is about 70% of the battle.

And so I just love what you said there and, uh, just the role that forgiveness played in your story too. That's something we haven't talked about a, a ton on this show. It's so important. I've experienced that freedom that you're talking about. And it's hard to explain that to people who haven't experienced it.

It's like, yeah, forgiveness is really good. It's really powerful. Like it's really freeing, but until you actually go through that, it's really difficult to understand that that's just what we've seen in working with, with young people who come from broken homes. Yeah. It, it, it really, and I know I said this already, but it just, they know, by, through forgiveness the, my past and never had power over me again, you know, again, there were, there were still moments that it was repeating different things or whatever, but, but as a whole, it broke the past power, you know, the, the, the, the wounds of the past, having that power over me.

And I, I, again, not that I was perfect from that moment on, but it was such a moment of grace. And I mean that in the fullest sense of that word, you know, that there was just a gift, um, that I could see with new eyes. Um, and I, I, I really think everybody needs it. And I think as, as awful as divorces and as the pains and the loss, um, that, that come from divorce, we do, we are gifted.

We, we have a super, you know, it's kinda like the radioactive spider, that, that bit us, you know, we have a deeper, um, uh, appreciation and hopefully a humility that we've gotta work on this. And I don't think anybody. Perfectly equipped for marriage or, or parenting. Right. Um, but we as adult children, I think as a general rule know, we don't have it.

Don't have what it takes and we are gonna look for it and we're gonna be hungry for it. I think the biggest mistake anybody can make and, and us, uh, as adult children, as well of divorce is to say with false confidence, oh, I'll, I'll, I'll be fine. And I don't have to work on this, or I can ignore the past and, uh, and just move on with my life.

And then everything will be fine. Um, that as long as we don't take that perspective, I really believe that there is a power to our humility and knowing that we need help, we need work, uh, in our lives. Yeah. Uh, so good. It's so easy to be arrogant and just like completely miss, like, like you said, if you don't have humility, you won't even identify the problem in the first place and therefore you can't heal, you can't grow.

And, uh, when it comes to forgiveness, the point you made about like reconciling with your dad, that's so beautiful. You were able to do that. And I love that you distinguish that some people can, some people can't and kind of what we say is like, that's the ideal, like if you can reconcile with one or both of your parents, that's awesome.

But if there's a, an unhealthy dynamic, a toxic relationship there where it wouldn't be good for you to do that, you can still forgive at a distance. And I love that. Um, you highlighted that and I think it's really important. And going to what you said about. Blocking out memories. I have a friend who is a psychologist and she's, uh, a trauma therapist.

She specializes in trauma therapy. She's just about done with her PhD. And one of the things she taught me was that our brains literally have a mechanism. Like, like you said, that they block out memories that we're not equipped to like emotionally handle. And so until we're in a space and we have people in our lives who can help us so kinda work through those things, we literally will forget those things in a way, because our brain's trying to protect us.

Oh, I love how our whole body, our whole kind of ecosystem, our human, um, uh, system really works to protect us, to build us up. Like, cause I have just met many. We have met many couple. Who it's only when they're in the kind of safety of their marriage and that they feel loved and supported, and they ha that their issues start coming out.

And it, it is, it is some people were surprised by it. You know, like, why is this, why am I feeling this way now? And I'm like, cuz you couldn't have dealt with it before you weren't at a place where your life and your situation was able to. And I have found that, you know, even though it, it, it was a substantial movement, um, in that forgiveness, there have been those, you know, and then I've talked about the, my, my eldest daughter, but there are many moments of both bringing me, uh, to a very humble place.

But also just with the safety of, of knowing that my wife really means it when she says she loves me, you know, that, that they're, and that meaning that word, even the definition of what I thought loved was to what it really is when there's somebody who's willing to do anything for you, that's willing to be weak and strong for you in, in and give of themselves in a way that.

I'd never known that somebody could like me with all of the junk, with all of secrets revealed and the li you know, all that stuff that maybe we stuff down. And, and, and, but that's when there's true freedom, that's when there's true life, uh, when you're in that kind of a relationship and those, you know, and maybe not all memories will come back, but, but that, there is, I never thought about that before.

And for me now, again, we've, we've been married a while. I'm actually remembering more of the good things that I kind of blocked out to talking with your sister. Yeah. And talking with my, yeah. Talking with siblings about that in their own healing journey. That's the other thing I think that is really beautiful is that when you have siblings who you can journey with, you know, that path appealing, you can journey with them.

So Mike did the, um, the life giving wounds retreat with Dan Meola, um, just recently. And we had never, he had never really thought. What I think is interesting is that I had seen about this retreat. And I brought up to Mike and he was kind of like, eh, I don't know, you know, I've been through counseling, I've been there before.

Right. And I was like, well, you should, you know, check it out. Maybe one of your siblings would do it. And so he and his sister went through it together and, and it was so good because I think it opened up his eyes, Mike's eyes to the continual healing that God still wanted to do in him and what he wanted to teach him.

But then really so beautiful is that his sister who's so many years older than you, 10 years older than you or so, you know, they were able to connect on a new level as well, you know, as they both shared about their memories and things, which were different, know, it was actually surprise. It surprised me actually.

Uh, Joey, just even talking to my siblings, the. I don't remember, or she remembered differently, or I remember differently cause Mike is on the younger end and they're all older than him. And so it, it was, it was, it was very, very interesting to see and the relationship that she has versus the relation, you know what I mean?

Like all of those nuances, it helped paint a fuller picture. Right. And, uh, you know, there's, there's just a beauty about being able to see our lives and even the, the wounds of the past and see it from new perspective. And I don't think if I, if we didn't go on that experience, that retreat together, um, that we would've had the opportunity.

To share about it. And although we had kind of mentioned it before, we were kind of, we all knew that everybody's done their own little path, if you will. Right. But it was a perfect excuse. Yeah. And it actually brought us closer together through that as well. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Love that. Yeah. And I, I think it's so helpful to have like a space to work through those things too.

Uh, and that's where I think Dan's retreats are, are great because, you know, it's hard to listen to a podcast. We've even gotten this feedback on this podcast. It's like some of the things we talk about they're heavy and you, you kind of just need to take a step back from day to day life. And so I love that you were able to do that with your sister.

My brother and I actually were, were talking the other day. And we were talking about the fact that healing is not just like this checklist of things to do. It's, it's relational on so many levels and. There's so many voids that we have in our hearts that we need people to love and affirm us, like you mentioned before, Mike.

And so it's really important. And that reminds me of some research they did at Harvard on happiness, that the book, the happiness advantage, it kind of summarizes their findings. And what they found was really the happiest people were the ones who lived close to their family and they had healthy, intimate relationship with their parents and siblings.

Wow. I would love to see this study. that's so interesting. Yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah. Great book. So the happiness advantage is the book and, uh, it's probably could have been half the size, but you know, it's, it's like really, really great research and they found some awesome things and, and yeah, that's basically what they found is like the strength of your social connections.

Your family relationships in particular really are the determining factor of your level. That makes sense though, but beautiful. I love. I wanna, uh, shift gears a little bit and put you guys on the spot. So I hope you're okay with that. I'm just wondering yeah. Where yeah. OK. Yeah, no, I I've listened to your podcast and I love how vulnerable you guys are.

I think there's, yeah, it teaches so much. It's so helpful. Yeah. So I'm curious, where have you failed as parents and what have you learned from those failures? So we can learn from you and how much time do you have? No, , , let's see three hours. Exactly. Right. Um, how have I failed as parent? I think, you know what, the one thing that I actually was just thinking about recently is how important it is to put ourselves in our children's shoes.

You know? And, and I, I was actually thinking about like an experiment, like what if you had, and I, what, if you, what if you had a person sitting in a. And when they went over to this area of the room, they were just, you know, ignored, oh, you know, whatever good things happened. But then they went into this area of the room and all of a sudden, some people started yelling at them and they, they touched something.

And then you get like a little shock, you know, but then if you go over here and then, then you go over again, but nothing happens. Like sometimes we have to realize that's what it's like for our kids. Especially like toddlers, who the whole world is new to them. And how many times have I exploded at my children or, or expected them to know something that I never told them, you know, or like, and I've eaten.

My one, one of my kids is very verbal and very, um, outgoing. And if I like will yell at him or whatever, like he's turned around and said to me, mom, you just told me to do this. Or I wasn't doing what you think I was doing. I was actually doing this other thing and I've had to go, oh, sorry. You know, like I was assuming you were doing something wrong and he is like, mom, you're assuming I'm doing no, I'm not.

You know? And, and it's just because he's really verbal. How many. Would I say that to another child who's maybe more quiet. We have 10 children. I don't know if we said that before. So if kids from all ages, you know, eight to 25 and grandchildren as well, but how many times would I maybe yell at another child who wouldn't call me out?

You know, the way that my son did who would just kind of like internalize that and that's not good, you know? And so I really think that one of the keys that to good parenting and one of the things that I know I am still I'm doing better at now that I'm older , but I didn't do as well. Definitely when I was younger is empathy and putting myself in their shoes, you know, like, okay, why they're grabbing these cookies off the table, whatever, why are they doing that?

You know, not that we always have to analyze everything that they do, but I think just to have that empathy of realizing, you know, what they don't understand, you know, they, they just don't know. They don't know. Okay. And that, that kind of helps you to have more patience. And more understanding and more of a teaching training attitude rather than you are driving me crazy.

You're so frustrating. You know, so I think that it kind of like overall, like parenting failure, things like that, like there's, there's definitely a lot of times that I have gone overboard and hurt my children's feelings, but I think the key is, is forgiveness. You know, like just as you know, Mike needing to forgive his dad, like I need to ask my children for forgiveness.

I need to say, I'm sorry that I yelled at you in that way, you know? Um, I'm sorry that I yelled at you for taking the car or whatever, but you're still grounded, you know, so just like kind of like recognizing that we do need to provide training and guidance to our children. But we can't make our emotion, a weapon that we wanna like wield over our kids.

But when you do, you can ask forgiveness of your children and, and then God can use that because that can be a powerful thing, you know, to ask forgiveness of your kids, parenting failed, Mike. Oh, I, yeah. Again, we, we, we could go into this for a while, but I, I kind of alluded to this earlier, but my anger was definitely something that was, I I'm I'm, uh, my parenting philosophy had been for many years, ignore, ignore explode.

Um, and so, you know, a child's doing something that is either we disagree with or, you know, is just annoying. I'll ignore it, I'll ignore it. And then I, when they kept pushing, when they kept, you know, particularly teenagers, they seemed to be experts at pushing all of my buttons. , uh, you know, they may have gotten a master's degree and I don't know what, but, but it was one of those times that I remember.

Uh, you know, handful of occasions where I just lose my cool, I lose my control. And, um, and I would yell at the kids and I would then impose very, uh, kind of, because I was so angry because the synapsis in my brains were refused together. I wasn't thinking clearly. And I impose, you know, really harsh, uh, punishments on them, which later at least she be like, well, maybe we shouldn't do that.

Or then she would give me the eye, like yeah. You know, and, and happily, she didn't correct me in front of the kids, but afterwards, like, I don't think that you handled that really. And it was, and I mean, actually do remember sometimes, um, especially when our oldest were teenager. Having to come and, and like, kind of like almost take your arm or touch you and being like, we need to walk away right now.

You know, like this is getting, this is too much. And that was definitely, yeah. You know, that was a, a major, major fail. And it also led me to some great guilt of sure. Am I repeat, you know, then that's when the fears, if you will. Yeah. Resurfaced of like, am I just repeating what I grew up with? Am I falling back into the default, uh, of that?

So anyway, that was that that's probably the biggest failure, um, yeah. In, in my parenting, um, controlling emotions. Yeah. But then there's like the little things like last night, um, it's seriously, this literally happened last night. Our son is sitting at the dinner table. I had made spinach, which I love some of the kids love he tries to get up and he is like, I was like, sit down and you need to finish that spin.

And he is like, oh mom, I'm like, I do not care. Put it on your fork and eat it. And the next thing I know, he threw up all over the table. I'm not kidding. I was mad at him. I was like, how damn you throw up? And Michael's like, he literally, he threw all over the table. Alicia, he threw up it's it's okay. It was, it wasn't that he just spit out the food.

He empty his stomach and he actually, Mike said, Alicia, there was no food on. Bla a minute ago. And it was like full of God, which is gross. I'm sorry. You can edit that out later. OK. Before that one. And, and I wish we would've learned this lesson because that's not the first time that's happened, not with this child, but with other, that actually has happened before once before, when I have forced a child to eat something that would be a great failure right there.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So do you want, keep it going no, no, no. This is great. Yeah, I'm sure we could do like a whole show. No, it's, it's incredible though. I love what you said, learning from your fellows. That's so important. Like we need to have the freedom to fail. Yeah. It's so key. I talk about this a lot, you know, with my team members, like in the business world, and if you, you need to have that freedom to fail because that's how you learn.

That's how you get better. That's how you get stronger. And what you said too, is like, you can repair the relationship. And I think Mike, for people like us, that's almost like this revolutionary idea. It's like, You can actually resolve conflict. You don't just like walk away and leave it undone. And like things just fall apart.

No, it's like, you can actually repair the relationship when something goes wrong. And for me that's been so encouraging is in my own marriage. Um, and especially looking forward as an parent. No, I agree with you. And it's one of those moments where, you know, the business world would say, you know, our entrepreneurs fail fast.

It's like, do any parents look at our failures and see that as, as a moment for guilt or shame or regret or. You know, or we just ignore it and move on, like you said, but the reality is is that every one of us is gonna fail own that, be comfortable with that, and then just learn from it and what we, one of our, our principles, uh, that we teach in, in our parenting, uh, you know, in our podcast and, and the, the, the conferences and retreats that we run is that it is not your job to, to turn your kids into perfect little, uh, saints.

Uh, it's their job to transform you. Meaning we get transformed through our parenting, into the best version of ourselves. It's by giving ourselves away that we're figuring out our faults, our mistakes, our, uh, lack of virtue or lack of self control or whatever it might be. So that through this we're learning, we're being shaped, we're being transformed.

All our rough edges are being shaved off. And it's a beautiful thing. When we take extreme ownership for our lives. Yeah, and that that's gonna, it's gonna change us, but it's also gonna be, if we, if we get that on the front end, you know, Joe, we learned this on the front end, you know, our, you know it, but it's like our failures as parents are all about how we are formed as parents.

Right? If that makes any sense. And I think sometimes, especially if you think that it's, it's my job to make this child into a Saint, then if something goes wrong, well, they're just not becoming a Saint it's, you're focused on the child on, on them. It's like, no in wait back up, time out, you need to be working on you.

The only person that you can change is yourself, you know, and that includes your children. Yes. You're there to form them and guide them and model for them and, you know, discipline and give that guidance to them. But the changing has to be up to them and, and we need to look at ourselves and. How, how can I love them better?

How can what's what is in me that is causing this, you know, whatever this frustration that's rising up in me, because they're just a kid, like they don't know, they're not waking up in the morning saying, oh, how can I annoy mom today? You know, like, how can I drive crazy guarantee? They are not thinking that at all.

They're thinking, you know, just life love. I want mommy to love me. I want daddy love me, you know? And when we get angry with them and we get emotional about their mistakes, we need to look at ourselves and say, okay, what's going on here? Like what's going on in, in us and not look at ourselves as failures, but we're still learning too, you know?

And God's trying to refine us, like Mike was saying, that's right, shave off those rub edges. Bring us to our knees and make us aware of our need for God's mercy. And that is not a bad thing. If children make you more aware of God's mercy, that's, that's a good place to be. that? No, that's so refreshing to what you said.

It's like, this is part of the process, like expect it. And I think that's so hopeful for anyone listening right now who maybe feels like they're, uh, you know, not able to be a good parent. It's like, yeah, you're gonna fail, but that's okay. Like you can learn from it. You can move forward. And, and so many good pieces of advice that you guys said.

And Mike, I appreciate that, you know, telling the, the advice that you gave me to just expect that and, and really prepare for it, because I think so often maybe as men, we have more of this tendency, it's easy to thrive maybe in one area of our lives. Maybe like you said, being humble in business and learning to fail fast, but.

You apply it to your marriage and it's like, you're pathetic at it. I know I've experienced that in my own life. Like I'm good at something in one area and then the other is not. So I, I appreciate that. And I wanna go back to something you said too, just about anger. Um, I've personally dealt with this too, especially right after my parents separated, when I was 11, I had all sorts of anger issues and had to go to anger management school.

Basically. It was very humbling. Um, but yeah, I think so many men deal with this and I think it, it points a bigger issue of just letting your emotions control your actions and whether that's in marriage and business and friendship or, or in parenting. And so yeah, the ability to detach, to take ownership of your actions and when you do mess up, just own it and, and make it better.

Yeah, man, there's so much I wanna say right now, you guys are fantastic. Alicia, just back to what you said. Putting yourself in your kids' shoes. One of the things kind of to add to that, that I've noticed with parents just kind of observing my own parents and then other parents around me is that I, I think we kind of forget what it was like to be kids.

Like, I, I try to remind myself that sometimes, like, what did I think and feel when I was like that age? And, uh, the more I've done that the more I've realized like, yeah, like there should be more grace, a hundred percent. And I do, I actually , I, a lot of times I very reflexively think about my childhood and think about what did my parents do in this situation.

And I think that that is a disadvantage, um, for children of divorce, if you don't have any memory of your dad being there, how would my dad handle this? Or your mom being there? How would my mom handle this? I don't know. I have nothing, you know, but I really do think about that. A lot of remember. Oh, well, how was he kid?

What would my mom do? You know? And I just almost subconsciously, you know, I think that right. And it, and it's good too, to remember your own childhood. And if that's hard to do, I could see how that would be, you know, a difficulty. No, for sure. I want to, uh, get your advice. On, uh, a bunch of different scenarios.

I'm gonna throw these at you. We can do kind of a back and forth soundbite thing here, uh, cuz I'm sure we could talk about each of these for forever. Um, and I have to admit little confession, a little bit of a selfish interview because, uh, my wife and I are expecting a baby. Uh, she'll be in about two months and we're so excited.

Yeah. Thank you. And yeah, so just trying to, you know, we're reading and trying to learn and listening to your podcast and all that and it's been fantastic. Thank you for that. Um, so yeah, I just wanna go through just series of questions and if you would give us your advice and uh, yeah, I guess the first thing is like as a new parent, if you could go back in time to yourself as a new parent, uh, and give some advice, uh, yeah.

What are a couple things that you'd say main points and I'm sure this might echo some of the things you said before, but what the first, the first thing that comes to mind. Chill out uh, yeah, we we're, as, as parents, we, we have to recognize we're playing a long game. It's it's not a sprint. It really is a long race and that there are gonna be cycles and seasons, uh, you know, early on you may get no sleep with a newborn, you know, and, and, and infant, uh, child, uh, or there's gonna be times when you have maybe one or two little kids that are just draining you and you're in the survival zone.

Mm-hmm, , they're seasons of life. And, um, and we need to have a longer perspective this isn't, you're not gonna stay in that zone forever. Um, but which is, is good and bad, right? Meaning sometimes you'll get through it quickly, but. Um, there are good moments, which, you know, just to really appreciate and, and soak up those moments because, you know, we have two, uh, married children now and, um, you know, three others who are essentially out, uh, out of the house, they do kids do grow up so fast.

So, so one don't get stressed. I know it doesn't feel like it, but they do but, and I never believed anybody, uh, who told me that . Um, but I would, I would say that that, that don't sweat, the small stuff have a bigger, longer term perspective. Um, and really kind of embrace, uh, each of those moments cuz they, you, for that child, you only have, you know, you have a limited amount of time and it's, and it's a gift.

Right. Uh, and to really embrace that, I, I felt like I kind of felt like I was looking for the right answer to everything. Yeah. Like I wanted to just do it. Right. I wanted to find to be the perfect there. Different. Yeah, exactly. I wanted to find like that perfect method. And I think a lot of people do that today.

Well, studies showed this, so this is what I should do. But the problem is that you can find studies that absolutely contradict each other about the way that you should raise an infant as far as like sleep schedules and feeding and you know, how you respond to them and you can find studies that are all over the place.

But what you really need to do is just work with unity, with your spouse on what is the best for you as a couple, what is the best thing for your family? And don't worry, don't worry about. doing it perfectly. It's okay. Like you were saying before, it's okay to make mistakes. You're going to make mistakes.

You're gonna try something to get them to go to sleep and it's not gonna work. And that's okay. That's totally fine. You can try something else or maybe you just need to try what you were doing a little bit longer. And so I feel like for me, like what I would tell myself, you know, if I was talking to myself as a new mom, say, don't worry about getting it all right.

And also just enjoy your children more. That's part of the great thing about being a grandparent now is that can just enjoy our grandchildren. And I have to say that even our younger children, um, like numbers eight, nine, and 10, I feel like we still. Take more time to just enjoy them. Yeah. And them just play games, games, hang out and just like laugh at them and just realize that, you know what I mean?

Like just kind of relax a little bit and not worry about, well, I have to hurry up and teach them all these things, because this is the important point to teach this blah, blah, blah. You know, it's okay. It's okay. Like it is it, your childhood does go fast, but it's also, you have time to teach them things little by little and a lot of things, times you are modeling, you're modeling for them, the way that you live your life is more important than anything you say, or any discipline plan that you have or anything like that.

Loving them and modeling God's love for them. Honestly, I really do think is the most important thing. I think that's more important. Then being really strict and firm on certain rules or having the perfect rules of the perfect system. Sorry, one, one thing that, that I, as long as you don't contradict me, yes.

You, everything you said was perfect. There you go. Perfect. Um, so if you learn this after 27 years, it's about priorities man, prior battles wisely. Uh, no. So, so, but I, I think I, I don't, I think now I appreciate it more than I did back then. The importance of our marriage. Yeah. Um, a as much as I loved my wife and we got, well, I think I took things for granted, meaning we, we were good.

We were both good people. We were trying to deal with our own stuff. And we were collaborating in this great work of raising these kids. And I would probably look back and. get a better habit of date nights. Yeah. Uh, on a regular basis basis for sure. Uh, going out together. Um, I think that we, early on, we were very good about that and then kids just make it more difficult, but I think they make everything more difficult but I think we, I, I gave up or settled too quickly and then I accepted jobs, um, that had me traveling a lot for work and I didn't compensate, you know, by saying, okay, now that I'm physically not home, how am I gonna maintain my emotional intimacy, uh, with my wife when we're physically not present?

Um, I, I think that looking back I've, you know, that would be, you know, some of the things that I, I think is strong, We're also seeing the fruit, you know, again, I think we have a great marriage, but it's like not taking any of that for granted and, and really developing early on good habits of yeah. Date nights and communication and so forth because we're seeing some, um, couples now come to us, struggling with even their own kids who now have left.

The faith are not following in their values. And one of the things that, that I, a common theme, common, the common theme was they had some major challenges in their marriages. And I look at that and I think that has a bigger influence than we may realize. Yeah. Uh, on our kids, like sleeping in separate bedrooms, you know, for years and years, that's, that's gonna affect your children, you know, and that's gonna affect the way that they see marriage and that they.

God and the faith and, and all of that. So, and, and anyway, it's important to work on your marriage and I'm sorry, I know you, I'm gonna just throw this out, just cause I've seen a couple of people for adult children of divorce, who, because they don't wanna repeat. What happened to them as a child, they often pour themselves out into their kids and they pour themselves into forming and loving their children that they actually unintentionally neglect their neglect, their marriage.

Yeah. And, um, and, and by doing that, you're actually. Undercutting the way that you're loving your kids and forming your kids, cuz the, the, um, the number one thing is if you wanna be a great parent, you need to be an even more amazing spouse. And I, I think we sometimes get things disordered, um, in our parenting.

Yeah. So anyway, sorry. I, I probably have other stuff you wanted rapid fire no, no, no, this is fantastic. And yeah, I'd like to stay there for a second. I think you guys covered that topic well, but I just wanna make sure everyone understands what we're saying here. Uh, there's a very big difference between a family that puts the children first and a family that puts the marriage first parents who put the kids first parents who put the marriage first.

And I actually had. Kinda debate with my mom recently. She very much so took the approach that the kids come first. And, uh, and I just wholeheartedly disagree with that. I agree with what you guys are saying. I've heard you say it on your podcast. It's so important to put your marriage first and obviously like you can't neglect your kids.

Like you need to feed them and take care of them. Um, there's a balancer of course, but, but I, I do believe in kind of the marriage centered family. Um, yeah. Is there anything else you'd like to add to that for someone who maybe isn't sure why that's so important? The, I just think about it. What were you like Mike was saying about your identity first as a son or a daughter, right?

That's that's how we start out. We all start out as children. Well then that's the next thing that happens or that should happen in the order of relationships you get married, like you get married first, then you have children or you need another person. You need that relationship. Your children come from.

Your relationship. That's where they come from. Right. And they don't, they don't, the children don't come first. And then, I mean, it's ridiculous, right? If you just even think about it naturally in the order of creation, they can. But then if you think about the order of grace, there is no, you know, as Catholics, we believe that marriage is a sacrament.

Well what's is there a sacrament of motherhood or is there a sacrament of fatherhood? No, there isn't. It's the sacrament of matrimony. That's where you get the grace to be a parent. You get the grace to be a parent from the sacrament of Mamo and you can't be, you cannot love your child. You cannot, we, first of all, only God can satisfy your longing of their heart.

But even me as their mother, I can't give them naturally everything they need in relationship. They not only do they need their father. but they also need our couple love, right? Our love together as a couple, that child needs that. And which is again, one of the tragedy of divorces. Is that still? Yes. Your father still loves you.

Your mother may still love you, but you lost their couple love and that's a security and a, and a place right. Of safety for kids, kids. I mean, you know, it's kinda like if you just think about. Uh, kind of psychological development of, or civilization development. Like you can't establish yourself, you can't have civilizations when they're, they're moving from place to place and they're afraid of enemies attacking or they've got food, right?

Mm-hmm but it's like, but when you are able to create a marriage centered family, you create a stabilizing force for your kids to be at peace, to be at a place where they can reveal themselves. And again, it's we? Yes, we need, um, a mom and a dad. Every child has a right to a mom and a dad to love them, but they need that extra protection, not extra.

That protection is necessary for their development and growth to have the love of that couple. One of the greatest parenting, um, approaches that you'll ever have comes from the unity of yeah. Your, of the spouses. And if you don't have that kind of deep, uh, loving intimacy, your kids, aren't gonna understand what true love is.

Cuz you're the first model of what real love is what real sacrifice mm-hmm means about how to give themselves away. The lessons that you teach simply by showing up and loving your spouse will leave lasting lasting memories. We, we had this, this, uh, priest that we interviewed a little while back and his, um, when we asked him, how did he, um, you know, how did he maintain his faith and so forth?

The first thing he turned to was talking about his parents and his grandparents love for one another more than about God or experience it was that, that they passed on this deep love for each other. Yeah. And that was how he found his vocation to give himself away. And so we need to give that for our kids'.

A true witness of what, and again, as Christians, we believe that Christ said, um, marriage is the model of how Christ, how God loves his people. Mm-hmm and how Christ loves the church. And so that's an image that they need to learn from. We need that to be the foundation of their physical, spiritual, emotional, and psychological development is that deep abiding love that no one person can do on their own.

And I really think too, that it's a it's disordered it's it sends a disordered message because when you have two adults looking at a child and they, this child is the center of their universe, that's a lot of pressure for a kid. You know, like most kids don't wanna be the center of their parents' universe.

They're like, yeah, I'm just growing up. Can you, you don't have a life of your ugly, you know, like I feel like it really is. It's too much. And it sends this message to their child that our life revolves around you. Our life does not revolve around our children. My life does not revolve around. That's creating a selfish child.

Exactly. My life has God in the center. And then our marriage with God, you know, intertwined is in the center of our family. And then our kids know that, and our kids are part of a community that is our family. They are participating members, not the focus of they are the participating members, which in this community.

And like, my dad would always say to us, he would like you kids. You're gonna be outta the house in 18 years. I'm living with this woman till the end of my life. You know, he was more important as far as the priority of relationships within the home. Their marriage was first. Yeah. You know, and we all knew that and it, and it gave us a, a sense of a real stability.

That's right. That's exactly so good. Yeah. And two things stuck out to me in what you guys said, one, just that the power of modeling, I, I think you guys have said this on your show. I've heard other people say it too. How you know more is, is caught than taught. And that's basically what you said before Alicia.

And, and I think that's so key because you know, Mike, you teach your boys. What it's like to be a man, how to treat a woman just by your presence, your example, the way you live your life and Alicia, the same for you and your girls. And so the them watching and seeing, okay, this is how you love. It's so important.

I think that's why we struggle so much in our relationships as people come from broken families, because we just didn't see a good model of that. And that's what the research shows. And the, the second thing is just the security. You guys mentioned that just the safety and security of the kids. So there's a couple that I really look up to.

They're just this beautiful marriage, great marriage. And I've been blessed to spend time with them. And they've really healed kind of this broken idea that I have of marriage. And, uh, they told me a story. Uh, on another episode we did with. They said that, uh, uh, Joe, the, the guy, his, his wife's name is, uh, Maria.

Uh, they were in the kitchen and he just like grabbed her and was kind of dancing with her and he kissed her. And, uh, his daughter, one of his daughters was just like standing there, just like soaking it all in just watching this. And, uh, he said, he looked down at her and he just saw this just pure joy in her face and just this sense of contentment and security.

And so there's more than maybe words can even express how putting your marriage through. So you exactly the situation you're describing. We have seen that many times with our children as well. It's true. As well as sometimes them going, uh, yeah. Are you kissing? But then we also seen particularly younger kids.

We were at Alicia was just talking about this the other day, about how, uh, particularly little guys, when we hugged. They'll like try to pull us in so that it's both of us, like she's getting like this, this group hug from mom and dad, you know, and there's this couple love that she wants. Like, I feel like that's the image is that, you know, I, oh, I love mommy.

Oh, but I want daddy in here too, you know? And it's like, that's the, that's the powerful symbol. Because again, at the end of the day, part of our hope for our children is that they are launched out into the world as you know, generous, kind, loving thinking about others first, all of these things that we want, well, how do we start that?

If, if they don't recognize that they're part of a, a community of love, right? And that they are the center, but that they are members of there, they are born in love for love and, and with love. Right. So that, that they then can be launched out, uh, with them. But without that stability. Without that marriage, uh, it really is.

It hurts. And again, that's what we're recognizing, right? As adult children of divorce, we're recognizing that we have had a wound that we've had a crippling. So the antidote for that yeah. Is not to simply protect ourselves and pour ourselves into our kids. It's the first pour ourselves into our marriage so that we together can form these kids and, and really change our family history, change the legacy that we have, uh, flowing out from us that our kids get something that we didn't get the love of both a mom and a dad, that marriage that is such a powerful force for kids.

Hmm, love it. Yeah. And it's, it's just so foundational when that foundation is shaken, it affects everything. And when it's strong, it affects everything. So good. I wanted to ask about, uh, when it comes to making decisions, like, obviously you make a lot of decisions as parents. Uh, what, what's your general advice from making decisions, especially when maybe you and your spouse don't see things at eye, you, you maybe disagree, uh, on something.

How, how do you handle that situation? Here's what I want parents to remember. It's better to be wrong together than right alone. Okay. you heard that, right? so we now of course, we're not talking about like moral, evil or whatever, but it's better for you to make a United decision that may not be like the absolute perfect plan or, you know, whatever, but it's something that you can both agree on rather than one of you being like, I know this is the right way and I'm just gonna go on and do it by myself.

Um, because your unity, the unity between mom and dad, that is the best parenting method then you could possibly have. And, you know, we talk about, we kind of already talked about this and the fact that, that, um, couple love or that the way we were just describing it to another couples we were talking to is like synergy, right?

So what's synergy in the business world. It's look all together. We can come up with a better idea than any one of us could by ourselves or than any one of us could come up with by compromising synergy is not compromising. It's not like, okay, well you wanted two and I wanted one. So we'll do one and a half.

No. Synergy is like, is us putting everything it's standing shoulder to shoulder with your that's gonna spouse. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Standing shoulder to shoulder with your spouse, looking at this problem, looking at an issue and saying, how can we do this together? Because we're on the same page. We're on the same team.

Yeah. I just, but out here is the problem just to add to that. I, I really think that too many times we try to settle and we try to compromise. And, and again, there is a place for compromising, you know, or we just gotta go along for the, for peace at any price. Right. You know, like I don't argue anymore, so I'm just gotta let it go.

And, and sometimes we do just need to say, Hey, it's not that big of a deal to me. Right. Let's let it. I'm not gonna worry about it because I think sometimes we make things a bigger deal than they really need to be. Um, sometimes there are decisions that. It really doesn't matter to me, but I'm fighting for the principle of it.

Like, well, she won 10 of the arguments. I should have one of mine. That's not what it's about. You know, in marriage, it's about we're all in a hundred percent, a hundred percent, not 50 50. I only, I I'll give her some of the decisions. I'll take some of the decisions. That's not what a marriage makes. Yeah.

What we are talking about is the two become one, which is not an easy process, uh, that the two of you are forming a more United approach, but it comes when we, again, we talked about this a little bit earlier, but, and as Alicia mentioned already, it's business world. We want to be able to make a, a unified plan for our organization to succeed.

And in order to do that, we, as Alicia said, need to sh stand shoulder, shoulder, and look at the situation, the decision that's before. And not look at our petty counting the costs or who has done this, or how many times have we gone to your family or my family or, or whatever, whatever the decision might be.

It's looking at the situation and saying what's in our best interest for us as a couple and us as a family. And not settling. And sometimes what we have done, um, is take a step back from the, the practical, uh, applications and look back at the deeper reasons why. Right. Uh, which is a whole other pro we have this whole thing.

I think you may have heard of us talk about this on the podcast, but. A family board meeting where you get together and get unity on some of the biggest stuff in your life so that you can have a plan when the little things come up, you've already got a process. You already got some of the big things decided which help make some of the smaller decisions easier.

Right. Uh, as you go along. So good. Thank you guys so much. If people wanna learn more and, and get your advice on further parenting topics. Yeah. We'd love to have them join us@messyfamilyproject.org. Our website, um, has we have a little over 150, uh, podcast episodes. So whether it's in iTunes or Spotify or wherever you get your podcast, we're, we're, uh, streaming there.

Um, as well as we have, uh, online, uh, guides and resources, free conversation starters, we have a discipline guide that has proven to be very popular for people. So you can go and check that out if you have discipline questions. And we've just recently started a, uh, some courses in other events that we're doing as well on, uh, for formation of, of parents.

So it's all on the website. Awesome. We'll link to those in the show notes. Thank you guys so much for, for being here. And I just wanna give you the last word. What encouragement would you give to someone who comes from a broken home who maybe feels unable to be a good parent? They feel like, I don't think I have what it takes.

Uh, what encouragement. I, I don't know why God has entrusted with you a child, but he has, and you are perfectly designed. That's right. Uh, to be a parent for this child. That's right. The greatest gift you can give your child, um, is first loving their mom or dad loving your spouse, and then making sure you're always working on yourself, taking extreme ownership because the, um, the, those who are wounded, who.

Deal with their wounds will continue to wound and hurt others. The more that we can invest in freeing ourself up by, by healing and transformation, um, we will then be the best parents our kids could ever want because this, this whole idea of parenting is both for them. And for us, it's a path where we're giving ourselves away and learning the path of freedom.

The more genuine we are, um, with our kids and giving them the fullest love, we can, that's gonna set them up for great success and don't sweat the fact that you're not perfect. No, one's perfect. You're not alone. And everybody, uh, fails. Everyone has, uh, stumbles along the way. No one is, is equipped to fully be the best parent.

We just have to make sure we show up with our level best in dealing with our past. And, and, and yeah, and just know that God is, God is bigger than everything, you know, that's right. There's no, there's no problem that he can handle.

I could have talked with them forever. So many great things, so many great practical tips that they gave. But one big takeaway for, for new parents is that you don't have to be perfect. Like Mike and Alicia said, you will make mistakes. You don't have to get everything right. And that's okay. Just, just do your best.

Keep learning, keep growing, keep getting better, but you don't have to be perfect. And there, I think there's so much freedom in that. And it's a good reminder. And if you want more from Mike and Alicia, if you want more of their great content, their guidance, go ahead and listen to the messy family podcast.

Wherever you listen to podcasts again, that's the messy family podcast and on their show, if you wanna hear Mike's full story, listen to episode 1 56, again, that's episode 1 56 on the messy family. Podcast. I recommend starting, uh, with that show, but of course, feel free to dive in wherever you'd like. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 44.

Thank you so much for listen. And if this has been useful, I invite you to subscribe and to share this podcast with someone, you know, who could really use it, who would be useful for always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#043: Do You Feel Abandoned by God? | Fr. John Paul Mary

If you’re from a broken family, you likely struggle extra in your relationship with God. There are so many barriers people like us have to overcome. One barrier is feeling abandoned by God.

In this episode, a Catholic priest who is a child of divorce joins us to discuss:

• How to overcome common barriers people like us face in our spiritual lives

• What to do if you feel abandoned by God

• How father and mother wounds impact our relationship with God

• What to do if you feel far from God and want nothing to do with him

Find a spiritual director

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Episode 9: A Retreat for Adult Children of Divorce | Dr. Daniel Meola, PhD

• Website: Life-Giving Wounds

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• Website: Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word

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• Novena to Mary Undoer of Knots

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Today, we dive into healing on a spiritual level, healing your relationship with God because people like us, people come from broken homes, tend to struggle in our relationship with God. There's just numerous barriers that we have to overcome to have a relationship with God and numerous things in our lives that make it difficult to have that relationship with God.

And we really haven't talked about this much on this show. At least not specifically in an entire episode, some of our guests have brought it up here or there, but we wanted to talk about healing, your relationship with God. Now we know that you maybe don't believe in God. We have listeners who come from all sorts of backgrounds.

And so if that's you, if you don't believe in God, if you're just not ready for this whole God stuff, we totally respect that. And you're totally welcome here. Right? We don't just exist to serve religious people. We exist to serve you. And so we're so happy that you're here, but my challenge for you is this don't shut this off.

Give it a shot. Just listen to it. You don't have to do anything else. Just listen to it. And if this is uncomfortable for you, if it's a sensitive topic, just listen, J just hear it out. I think you're gonna get something out of it. Maybe that you don't expect. And the truth is that we can't not talk about this stuff.

We have to talk about the deep and important things in life. And this is certainly one of them. And so give this a shot and what you're gonna hear in this episode, we talk about some common barriers that people like us face in our spiritual life, and some tips on how to overcome them. We talk about what to do.

If you feel like God has abandoned you, like how do you handle that? What do you do about that? How do you overcome that barrier touch on perfectionism? Like how often we feel like we need to be perfect in order to have a relationship with God in order to earn God's love. We also hit on father wounds and mother wounds and how they impact our relationship with God.

And then what to do. If you feel far from God, maybe you just don't want anything to do with God, or you feel like God, maybe doesn't want anything to do with you. So lots of good stuff, some deep stuff, but equally important stuff. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 43. And today my guest is father John Paul, Mary that's, right. It's a priest.

We have a priest on the show. It's the first time we've ever done that. And he was born and raised in new freedom, Pennsylvania. He earned a, an associate's degree in engineering from DeVry Institute of technology. Uh, he went to seminary shortly after his graduation, where during his time there, he visited the Franciscan missionaries of the eternal word, a, a religious order.

And after graduating from seminary, he actually entered that religious order. He then completed his theological studies at Mount St. Mary's seminary and earned a masters in divinity. He was ordained a priest in 2013. And father now serves as the employee chaplain for E WTN, the eternal word. Television network.

It's basically a Catholic TV network and you're gonna hear him mention it, but we actually met years ago in Israel. And he'll, he'll talk about it a little bit more, but it's just a pleasure to have him on we reconnected recently. And so I'm really glad to share this conversation with you between me and father,

John Paul, welcome to the show. It's great to be here, Joey. I love the fact that you're on the show because like I um, mentioned in the intro, we haven't really tackled this topic specifically in a podcast episode, it's come up here or there, but for so many people who come from broken families, there are so many barriers, so many things that prevent them from having a relationship with God or at least make it harder.

Hmm. And so I'm really excited to dive into this topic with you, but I wanna start a little bit with your story. How old were you when your parents divorced? I was 24 years old. I had just started college seminary at the Pontifical college. Joseph phum in Columbus, Ohio. So I wasn't young, uh, in the terms of like being below teenage years or even teenage years, I was 24 years old after my parents had been married for 25 years.

Wow. So this was not something that happened right? Outta the gate. You, yeah. They had been married for years and years. Yeah. As much as you're comfortable saying, uh, how did you deal with the breakdown of their marriage? The breakdown of your family, the divorce, and Joey is very hard. Just like anyone. I think a lot of people say that, you know, there's, um, kind of the false phrase that children are resilient, that children will somehow get over it, that they need to let their parents move on with their life.

And that, you know, somehow the children will, no matter what age I think is this phrase is used more with younger children. I. Than with adults mm-hmm , but I guess in my case, like I was 24 and, uh, I can honestly say that it was earth shattering. Uh, it was hard, very hard. Uh, I didn't think it would be as difficult as, uh, it was, I was away at school, uh, 400 miles away from home mm-hmm and first, before I entered a seminary, it, it, it really happened when I entered the seminary, the actual separation and divorced when I entered college seminary, but it had been happening, you know, the breakdown for years.

My dad's an alcoholic and he's, again, I, I don't wanna at all demonize my father in any way. I love my father. I think my father is a good man, but you know, at the same time, you know, I, I guess we were gonna more or less focus on, you know, myself right on how I dealt with this myself. Mm-hmm it was very hard.

I, um, felt helpless. Um, I felt like, I think you kind of enter into the mindset of, um, I wish I could be there if I was there, then maybe they wouldn't have broken up. kind of all the false things that, um, adult children of divorce, um, think about, or, or just kind of their minds are consumed about if, if I would've been there then yeah.

Like I said, things would've been a little bit different and that's not the case. I think, you know, one of the things that I've learned through the years in, um, in dealing in going to Alanon, which is, uh, the 12 steps for friends and family members of alcoholics mm-hmm, . I've learned that, uh, the three CS you didn't cause it you're not the cure and you can't control it.

Wow. I learned that 20 years ago, but now, I mean, even still 20 years plus later, I still am trying to assimilate and embody those principles because you know, sometimes the, the old Demonn the old wounds that we deal with, uh, surface, uh, from this wound. One of the things that I think for me, I think maybe some of your viewers might identify with is I started having panic attacks.

Hmm. Yeah. In college and Joey never in my life, did I have any form of anxiety? I was pretty active growing up sports and I was in pretty good shape. I never had any type of anxiety. I had some, probably some social fears, maybe. Um, I was a little bit shy but I, I really had no, no forms of anxiety or anything like that growing up.

And it was like a switch that went on. If, if I can use that type of, uh, uh, analogy, it was like a switch went on when my parents, uh, divorced in like a wreckage in my, in my own life that I started having panic attacks when I was in seminary. And so I had to kind of deal with that at the same time while I was trying to discern mm-hmm, my life choice.

And, and also like where God was calling me. To be a priest and to discern and enter into formation. I was entering and also dealing with my parents' marriage falling apart and also dealing with, gosh, how do I navigate the panic and anxiety and all this stuff and, and, and what, everything that that brings into one's life.

Absolutely so many people listening right now can relate to you. I know I can. Mm-hmm uh, I dealt with anxiety on different levels. I know people close to me who specifically dealt with like O C D, which of course is very much so related to anxiety. And so, yeah. Thank you for being so vulnerable. I can't imagine how, you know, scary those panic attacks must have been.

I've been with people when they're having panic attacks and there's not a pretty thing for any of you listening. Who've never seen that. It's not pretty. It is scary. And so father thank you for, for being so vulnerable. And one of the things going back to what you mentioned about your dad, mm-hmm, , I've never met a parent who wanted to harm their child.

No, absolutely. You know, by getting divorced, our parents would typically jump in front of a bullet for us, jump in front of a train, whatever they needed to, to protect us. I think often what happens is that they don't quite understand or know. What happened? So I just wanna put that out there for any parents listening right now.

Um, as you've heard me say before, we are not here to demonize you. In fact, one of the things that we wanna do is we wanna help heal the relationship between the parents and the child. And the only way we can do that is by speaking the truth and saying, this is harmful, this is damaging. And then we can move forward from there.

Amen jelly. I look, I often look at this photo album. My mom put together for me of my dad and myself, and there's many pictures there. And there's a picture of my dad holding me after coming home from the hospital. There there's so many blessed memories that I have compared to the, the fallout of the divorce.

So I try and focus on, on those memories that I have when, when your mind is just going crazy, sometimes a about the, the fallout from, uh, the divorce. Yeah, no, that's a beautiful thing. And I. Can relate on that level too. Like, I love my parents. I know you would say the exact same thing. Like I love them dearly.

I worry about them. I worried about them when I was 11 years old. When they separated, I was had a lot of anger toward them. But I also just worried about them cuz I cared about them. I loved them. And so, uh, I know that feeling you mentioned too, being away and feeling helpless. I, anyone who knows the more details of my story, my parents separated when I was 11.

Uh, they got back together actually a year and a half later. And so it was still, you know, traumatizing and difficult and their marriage was still broken, but they were together, which was good. And that continued on for another 10 years. And so I was away at college first semester away. And uh, when I got the call that my parents had began a divorce and so same things went through my mind as well.

I thought, man, if I was only there, like I could do something, I could prevent this from happening. And so felt helpless, blamed myself and so on. So you're not alone there. I know people listening right now feel the exact same. There's so many of us who feel this way. So thanks again for, for your vulnerability.

I wanna switch gears a little bit and talk about your relationship with God. I'm curious. What were the effects of your parents' broken marriage on your relationship with God, Joey? I think that that's a question that is still 20 years later unraveling. It's not something. I think that all, when my parents divorced that all of a sudden that I had kind of written down these, these points, um, these bullet points and kind of a perfect outline of these, this is what I'm feeling, Joey.

I I've. Going through counseling in seminary, uh, both seminaries that I was at, um, I'm going through, you know, some kind of formal counseling to deal with, uh, the hurt, the pain of, um, my parents' divorce. And I think so many on so many levels. I think like every single person that I met with every counselor that I met with, you know, led me to, you know, kind of a certain kind of understanding and articulation, you know, you know, different things that I've done, but to get back to the question.

Right now I'm in no, like I may be a priest and I may be a religious for 17 years now and a priest for 18 for eight years. but in no way, do I want to, I wanna tell our viewers, first of all, I, I just wanna say, just be patient with yourself, be very patient with yourself and it's okay. That it takes time to figure these things out.

And God is very, very patient with us. That's one of the things that I've learned, uh, through the years that being a perfectionist myself, I thought that I needed to be perfect for God to love me. I think everything that I did Joey, as a child, I think, and this stems from, I think me trying to get my dad's attention.

I was a star, all star baseball player. Third base. My grandfather used to call me Brooks, Robinson , uh, said that, you know, nothing could get past me out third base. And I remember coming home and telling my dad, you know, what I did and how many hits I had and how much I was on base and how many RBIS I had and whatever so forth.

And then it went on, uh, you know, different things that I, that I did. In childhood speed skating. I was a very good speed skater, roller skater. I was a skateboarder too, as well during that time. So like for five to six years, I, my whole life revolved around, um, going down to the skate park and skating street and, uh, many ramp and even vert ramp, even skated with a professional skateboarder at one time.

Uh, I kind of boast about that a lot. Wow. A lot of lot, some our viewers watch the X games and they might know who Bucky LASIK is. okay. And I actually skated with him on a, a mini ramp that a hometown that he lived at, and I always kind of boas skated with a professional skateboarder. Not that I was a professional skateboarder or anything, but, but.

There was this, there was this real, like push in me to Excel at everything on every level in skateboarding. And then in high school and post high school, the big thing for me and what consumed my life before my conversion was my car. I had a, a compact car, 1991 Honda CRX. Uh, if our viewers have ever watched fast and the furious, that was my life.

uh, I lived that life radically. I know when you, when you watch that movie, that was my life. I mean, there's no getting around it. Yeah. It is a subculture. I was in it literally, and it's it consumed my life. And, and this goes back to my debt. I, I was kind of imitating my father cuz my father loved cars growing up.

My dad had 68 Mustang, which he sold when I was 16, 15. He didn't want me to kill myself, wrap myself, wrap myself around that telephone pole. I remember the person counting out the dollar bills on the table and watching that, watching the car, literally being driven off mm-hmm and I thought to myself, I'm gonna have a car one day.

So I did and I was putting literally thousands and even 10 thousands of dollars, uh, ultimately into this car. And it, this car is what was my small G God. I mean that, that car sucked the life out of me. And that was the, I just kind of give that kind of a background story, I guess mm-hmm . To to say that my, it was really a, a perfectionism, uh, that was really unhealthy.

And still, even then I have to battle even still to this day, a false reality that I somehow need to prove my existence to God. I need to prove my value and my worth to God. That's not true. God loves me into being, you know, I exist everybody. That's listening to this podcast exists because they are known by God.

They are loved by God and they're sustained by God right now. As we speak right now, God is holding us into existence. If he would stop thinking about us for one moment, for one IOT of a moment, we would not just be dust Joey. We would be annihilated. Wow, totally. We'd be annihilated. If God would stop thinking about us.

I think that for me to kind of, I know it's kind of long winded answer, but, um, you're good. But for me, the, when, when the divorce happened, I was already in seminary. So thank God I had that environment of support of prayer, community prayer, the Eucharist, every day, confession. I had many people surrounding me that love me and that, you know, that I could open up to and be vulnerable to.

And some people don't, maybe some of our viewers don't have that yet. Yeah. Don't don't have that support system. And that support system is. Is really absolutely crucial. I think in moving forward in any kind of, um, healing, and I'm not just talking short term healing, but we want long term healing too.

Don't we, we want to, you know, look at the human person as, as Bo mind, body and soul. The effect of our parents' divorce is going to affect every single facet of our life and not just the spiritual life we're, we're kind of dealing with the spiritual aspects in this show. Mm-hmm , but it it's going to deal with, you know, our physical health.

Sometimes it's gonna deal with our emotional health, psychological mental wellbeing, but of course, it's going to Reve havoc on our spiritual life. We're mind, body, and soul. That makes so much sense. And what you said. This need that you felt to impress your dad to get his attention to really, if I could put it this way to earn his love.

Yes. And in the same way you felt the need to earn God's love as well. Yes. And so, yeah. How, um, I'm curious and I, and again, I know this is still always a work in progress. Healing is an infinite goal. It's something we're always working on and in one way or another, even though you can make real progress and I know you have, yeah.

How did you heal that relationship with God? Like how did you get past some of those obstacles, those barriers that were preventing you from having intimacy with God? What, what did you do there? You mentioned a couple things so far, but if you would elaborate on that, I think the temptation is always to, I, I wanna.

Diverge from like what I did rather to what, to what God did I think. Mm. Because we could, we could, we could focus on methods. Certainly we could focus on all kinds of different methods and you know, how very helpful stuff that is available for us. But I think like in a spiritual dimension, we have to, to realize that even before I move, even before, um, you know, father John Paul, or even back then when it, you know, my, my baptismal name is Joshua David.

I was Joshua David when it happened. when in religious life we receive a new name, uh, for some of our viewers that aren't familiar with, uh, religious life, we receive a, a new name to symbolize our. New mission and consecration to God much like Abraham becomes Abraham. Sara becomes Sarah and Simon becomes Peter.

So, you know, Joshua sometimes when I talk to myself, Joey, I actually call myself Joshua . Okay. I actually say, you know, uh, I just say Josh, Josh, you're so stupid. when you, when you wanna beat yourself up, I just literally say, what do you thinking, Josh? What do you think ? Um, I guess I, I just wanna say that I allowed God to draw close to me, you know, rather than, I mean, obviously there is the, there is a dimension of us strolling close to God and us making the effort.

It is an effort to, to pray and to, uh, seek out help and to seek the Lord's assistance and all this. But I, I think that I wanna, I want to emphasize the spiritual dimension for our listeners, that we have to first realize that God draws close to us in our misery, in our brokenness, that he is the one who takes the initiative first, even before I move, even before I utter any kind of prayer any time before, um, I say, I might say, Lord, where are you in this?

Anything, anytime I kind of move, I, I make an effort or a thought about God, God, is there, Joey, God moves first. Does that make sense? I really absolutely think that that's helpful. In our healing is that God cares. Mm-hmm that actually, that God is actually interested in me. God, God has a vested personal interest in me.

Um, I think that's helpful for, to kind of wrap your mind around. That's one of the things I think that's led to the most, most healing in my, my spiritual outlook of this all is that God draws near to me in my brokenness, in my misery profound. And it sounds like one of the things that you had to do was just let him love you, which can be so difficult at times.

Totally. It sounds easy in some ways it's like, it's not so easy. I don't wanna, I don't wanna pretend that what I just said. I came to overnight. Oh my gosh. No, I don't wanna pretend that that was easy at all. I'm sure it was preached to me. I'm sure I heard it growing up from the pulpit, but you know how sometimes our ears and our souls are not quite ready for what is being preached to us.

Totally. You know, we need to, you know, our, our, our souls are like the seed ground of, of the, you know, kind of like the parable, the so, and the seed. I, I, I always think that when that parable comes up of the Rocky ground and also the, the ground that has, uh, that is semi kind of prepared, that has that, that the seed is plant, that the seed is thrown and it grows for a time, but then the sun comes and then it's scorched mm-hmm and then you have the seed that is thrown and then thorns come choke up, kind of come up and choke the seed.

But then you have this seed ground that is fertile and life giving, and that is the seed ground that allows really kind of healing in the word of God. And, and also the psychological sciences too. I don't wanna, I don't wanna say that when, when we talk about mind, body and soul, it's not just the, the, the gospel that we're talking about in this realm of healing too, but we're also, I think can be very helpful is conversations with, um, professionals in the, in the psychological realm and, um, mental health realm that God can use all those things to re to bring about restoration and healing.

Absolutely. We can't compartmentalize the human person. Yes. Uh, each part of us. Good way of putting the other parts. Yep. As a priest, you counsel a lot of people who spiritually direct people, you, you hear a lot of confessions and I'm curious. Yeah, it's beautiful. I'm curious. What are some common struggles and some barriers that, that you see that people who come from broken homes, uh, tend to have in their relationship with God.

Wow. Joey, I'm smiling. Cuz to hear confessions is the greatest thing that I do practically. I can't imagine it is in that realm. I always see, I always like to say, and I would say to our audience, especially those that are Catholic. I think, I think that for. For, for us it's that realm is so sacred. I treat it almost as like the burning Bush.

I mean, it's that literally, I mean, it's like Moses approaching the Lord took off his shoes and you know, his, his countenance changed when he was before the Lord. Like the confessional is literally that sacred, uh, when somebody approaches that, that realm of healing, I would say that how, how can I summarize this?

I could talk for an hour about this. We could do an entire show on this. No question. I love it. I love it. I love that you brought this up. I just going back to what you said about, uh, at the beginning of the show, and I'll beginning this question about barriers. When you said that word at the beginning of the show, and also now not just barriers, Joey, but people we put up castles we, we put up huge walls and fortresses around us.

yeah. To pro to protect us. Yeah. And we don't want to let people in, we don't even wanna let that draw bridge down to let somebody in, you know, we we're, we're very, I think we're very guarded. If, if that's, I guess that's an appropriate world, we're very guarded even in the spiritual realm. And I found even in, in confession, in the sacrament app penance very often, sometimes I can, I can notice now that I've going through healing myself, and I wanna say that I'm.

I'm not healed by any stretch of the imagination. I'm a work in progress. Or rather, I like to say I'm a mess in progress but I think that I can more easily notice now those barriers, those castles, those walls that people are putting up and you have to be very patient with people. You have to be very gentle with people.

And I think it's helpful for priests. If there's any priests that are, that are listening to this, for them to be very patient and gentle with people who have brokenness in their, in their background, in the, whether their parents are divorced, uh, or not, maybe it's some other kind of brokenness. Uh, we priests need to be very patient.

I remember a priest that was our superior used to say. That, uh, were to be like a lion from the pulpit and a lamb in the confessional, uh, to treat people like literally a lamb to treat people like Jesus would. Uh, can I tell a story quick please? Yeah. And there's a story about St. Leo Paul man ditch. He's, uh, a confessor that spent just as many hours as pad PIO in the confessional, 13 to 15 hours a day, even more in the confessional.

Wow. And he dealt with a lot of people. So you have to think that he dealt with a lot of brokenness. There was one story about him where one of the fryers said, father, Leah poll. You're too lenient on people. You're not hard. You're not hard enough on us in the confessional. And he said, I want you to go into the chapel and I want you to take it up with him.

Who's in the tabernacle because that's who I learn, how to be a priest from how to be patient with people is Jesus. You look at the gospels, Joey, look at the gospels and look at how Jesus dealt with sinners. He was very patient and that's how I think I, in my ministry as a priest, I, how, how I try and deal with people in the confessional is, is in a very patient manner.

Sometimes those wounds like in my life, I think bringing it back to me here I am 20 years later. And a lot of, I think a lot of those wounds are now still being. Addressed or even brought to the surface even for the first time, even in 20 years. Yeah. Even during the pandemic I've been able to, in that realm heal so much and been able to address, I think, more concretely those areas.

That's fantastic. And I love what you said about the confessional. Let's stay there for a second. Sure. I know so many people listening, uh, some, you know, are not religious. Some are religious, some are Catholic. Some are not, I think there's this immense fear when it comes to confession. And I felt that so much in my own life, uh, especially.

When I was younger and I did some pretty bad things screwed up and just terrified. Like literally I remember one time father, I was standing in line for the confessional and I literally was shaking cuz I was so afraid to tell the priest what I had done. And so I think there was a lot of people like that and especially people who maybe been away from it for a long time.

And so I love what you said. It's super encouraging. It's like you're not waiting in the confession to like smite someone you're just like receiving them with love. Yes, absolutely. I would like to say if, if there, if there ever has been an experience in your life where, what, maybe it was in the confessional, it maybe it was a priest.

Um, maybe it's an older listener. We're listening to that's listening right now. Maybe a priest wasn't kind to you in the confessional. Um, wasn't considerate. Wasn't patient, uh, was maybe he was, you felt like he was rushed. I wanna apologize for that. I wanna say, I'm profoundly sorry. In the name of Jesus Christ.

And as a priest of his church, that's not how a priest should be in the confessional. Now priests are weak too. I mean, you know, we're subject to being tired and I don't want to, you know, make excuses. Um, but at the same time, I think as when Pope Francis commissioned me as a missionary of mercy in the, in the Jubilee year of mercy, he told us in Rome, I remember that he didn't want the confessional to be like a torture chamber and he used that kind of imagery that he said, may, may, perhaps some people have that experience of the confessional being a torture chamber.

And I bring that up, Joey, because I have in these five years that I've been a missionary of mercy I've I've made public, you know, almost apologies to people like I just did. And people have come back to the church and come back to confession because of that, I believe it. I mean, I've, I've seen people almost break down in front of me because they have had a bad experience as a child.

Um, so that being said, you know, fear is part of the, I mean, I think everybody, every one of us has fear, even, even those people who, who, who don't have a broken, uh, background, you know, fear is part of the fallen human condition. And I think, especially when you're, you're dealing with sin in whatever kind of sin it may be, I think for most people, sexual sin tends to be the most fearful of those sins that are confessed.

because that's where shame enters into the picture, because the reality is Joey human sexuality is from God. It's beautiful. Hmm. It's so beautiful when it's oriented toward God and union with God and for married love and for procreation. But when, when Satan twists the picture, when Satan just throws a wrench into God's most beautiful creation into the human person, into the gift of human sexuality, it's like a, a machine that is meant to run perfectly that when the wrench hits the gears, what do those gears start to do?

They grind mm-hmm and, and they don't work properly. And I think that's, that's where. In the spiritual realm in the emotional realm, in so many other realms in, in our, in our thought life, we, we begin to be almost consumed by our sins and our shame. And I would just like to encourage our viewers to bring that to God's mercy.

There's nothing that a priest in my opinion has not heard and that we're, we're supposed to be as priests we're supposed to be in the person of Jesus. So you're, you're confessing those most intimate, those most vulnerable shameful sins. You're bringing those to the, the divine mercy to God's healing mercy.

And, and I would just say to you that I'm praying for you, first of all right now. And I know that Joey's praying for you and, and all, I think let's, let's just say all the viewers are praying for you, for anyone that may be listening, uh, for, for healing that you may not be scared. It may take time to get over that.

It's not, it's not easy. It's not a, I wish I wish I can just snap my fingers right now and just heal. And that, that fear, I think that the more we go before God in the sacrament app penance, and maybe you experience this too, and you can give firsthand account, Joey. I, I can, I can as well. The more I, the more I started to go to confession and bring those sins that I had before God to be healed, the more I would go, the more comfortable I was.

And that fear started to dispel and I wasn't afraid anymore. I I'm actually now I love confession. I go to confession all the time. I never went to confession growing up. I mean, I didn't grow up really as a, on fire, a Catholic going to confession all the time. I mean, there was a time where I didn't go to confession for 15 years.

Hmm. So once I started going to confession, which was really during my conversion in my twenties, and then when I entered the seminary, um, I started to see that, that the confessional is a place of healing. That's what it is. I mean, the sacrament app penance and reconciliation is the sacrament. One of the sacraments of healing besides the sacrament of the anointing of a.

Incredible. Yeah, I know that's a, that's a long convoluted answer to your question. No, no. I thought it was on point. I thought it was really good. And that was so refreshing hearing. You apologize for preset there who maybe were mishandled, you know, a certain confession or who be struggled with, you know, treating people well, and I've, I've had my, uh, fair share of those and that's, um, disappointing, but I've also had some incredible confessions and we just were research is so understanding.

And so, yeah, just so merciful yeah. In their humanity. I know they're representing Jesus in that moment, but also like, as a person, so empathetic and yeah, one thing I would say. To everyone listening, especially anyone who, a, a Catholic, who hasn't been a confession to a long, for a long time, just, it will feel scary, but do it scared.

And eventually, like father said, like you said, father, um, it will become less scary, but do it scared even if you're scared and you're gonna find so much freedom that it's just so freeing and so healing, like you said, and one of the things I, I heard a one priest say is that when, when he hears someone come to confession and maybe confess some really difficult sin that, that they had committed, um, he just has admiration for them.

He's not like disgusted with them or anything like that. He has admiration that they have the courage to come and, and give God something that he, he didn't have that their hearts, their sins and things like that. So thought, can I second that motion please? I, I will second that motion of that priest. Oh my goodness.

Like there are some days where I go down to the confessional and I'm tired, but I walk outta the confessional. and I feel like doing cartwheels. Wow. Because, because that's as a priest, I think that's where I experience God's mercy and his heart beating. I mean, I don't hear it. I don't wanna say I hear the heart beat of Christ, but in some days it almost feels like his heart is pounding in there because like so many people are coming to, uh, the sacrament of penance in their brokenness, in their vulnerability and yes, when they open up their lives and they let me in, um, as a priest there and to have that, have that kind of, um, that realm where, where one is entering into just, uh, liberation, freedom.

Mm-hmm yeah. As a priest, I can, I can tell you that. I have come away and I say this, gosh, I, I know I've, I know I've said this to a person several times. I have said to a person in the confessional ma'am or sir, I was born for you. Hmm. If, if I, if I was a priest, just for you, literally just for you, then my life was worth living.

Then my whole existence matters because you know, the, the infinite mercy of God to, to, um, to be in that, in that place where, where God's mercy is, you know, showering down and liberating a soul from even perhaps decades. Um, it's sometimes it's been 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, um, even. Helped somebody recently, uh, there was a lady who called in to E w TN over the pandemic that could not get to church.

And she hadn't been the confession for over 70 years. I called a friend of mine in New York who I knew might be close to her. And he actually drove to her house, heard her confession, brought her holy communion, Joey 70 years. Oh, I mean, I get excited just talking about it. I mean, it's beautiful. The Lord is incredible.

Uh, he is far above our weaknesses. Incredible. And yeah, it's, it's amazing. You have the power, you know, obviously in your priesthood and Jesus gives you this power to literally break the bonds of spiritual slavery. It's incredible that you're freeing spiritual slave. So, so good. And one final thing on confession that we should move on.

I remember a quote from Santa Augustine, where he said that in failing to confess, I would not be hiding myself from you talking to God, but I would be hiding you from myself. Right. And so I think, you know, there's this fear of showing what we've done and just being vulnerable. And that holds a lot of people back there.

There's nothing that God doesn't know exactly. God God knows at all. So, so I would just simply wrap this up by saying to somebody don't be afraid that God already knows. God wants us to verbalize. I often get, tell, tell somebody when you go to the doctors and you have an ailment, you have to tell the doctor what the problem is.

You can't just say it hurts. The doctor's gonna say to you, where does it. Well, you need to say to the person, to the doctor, it hurts here. It hurts there. The doctor can't help you. If you keep on saying it hurts, you need to say it hurts in my elbow. It hurts in my neck and the same thing with confession.

And we need to name the actual what we've done the sin by approximate. We need to what the sin was. Approximate approximation. How many times, if we know how many times basically we're I like to say we're calling it out. Mm-hmm , we're calling it out. This is what I've done. We don't make excuses. This is what I've done.

And in that we're letting it go. Joey. we're we're giving it back to God. Wow. Being freed. Yeah. And that's what it's all about. It's about freedom and salvation is beautiful and incredible. Uh, you had so many good things to say about that. So thank you. I, uh, wanna get back to just the barriers that we experience when you come from a broken home.

And I'm sure people who don't come from broken homes, experience these things as well. But we've seen a trend in our apostle, in our ministry here that people who come from broken homes tend to struggle with these things and the, the, the first one. And I've dealt with this on a personal level. Is that so many of us feel abandoned by God?

Yes, we, we, we feel like he wasn't there for us, especially when we needed him the most. And I know in my life I'd ask him questions. You know, eventually when I started growing a little bit more in my spiritual life, getting closer to God, building intimacy with God, I would ask him like, God, why? Like, why would you let this happen?

God, where were you? When I need you. And honestly, father, I had to wrestle with those for years. Yes. And, and, and like you said, it's still a work in progress, but, um, I, thankfully I've been able to, to make a lot of progress by God's grace, but, um, this is a real barrier for so many of us. We just feel abandoned by God and therefore we'd want nothing to do with him.

What, what would you say to someone who's struggling with that particular barrier? I would say that God can take it. God can take your anger even to express that to him, to, to verbalize, to say, God, I'm angry, I'm angry at you. God will not strike you down. I promise you. Hmm. I promise you, God wants to hear from you.

God wants to you to verbalize your pain. I think the best form of prayer, if you will, is the Psalms themselves that we pray. Hmm. Uh, the Psalms of lamentation. When you go through some of those Psalms, those are the very Psalms that Jesus Christ, the son of God prayed himself. Joey, my God, my God. Why have you abandoned me?

Psalm 22? My God, my God. Why have you abandoned me? So why not? Why not take the Psalms the very, the word of God and make it your own literally. I mean, say it, say it to God, my God, my God. Why have you abandoned me now? I'm a big fan of the chosen. I don't know if you ever watched the chosen, uh, series. I haven't yet, but I know a lot of people love it.

It's it's amazing. Um, so one of the new episodes addresses this very question. Hmm it's um, the scene in, uh, the second season, I think it's, um, episode two in the second season of Nathaniel being underneath the fig tree and the Lord Jesus, and the gospels says to Nathaniel, I saw you when you were underneath the fig tree, remember mm-hmm and in that gospel scene, in the, in the show, in the chosen, they, that the way they played out that narrative was brilliant.

was brilliant. And what they were trying to get across to the viewer, to those of us who are watching is that God sees us. Nathaniel is calling out to God in this scene. He's like, if Lord do not turn your face from me, do not turn your face. And he's, he's thinking that God has abandoned him. That God doesn't see him, that God doesn't know his pain, what he's going through.

He's thinking that mm-hmm . But, but then very shortly after is when he meets Jesus of Nazareth. And Jesus says to him, Nathaniel, I did not abandon you. When you were underneath the fig tree, I saw you. And that's the moment of a epiphany that Nathaniel looks at Jesus. And he realizes like, wait a minute.

Like, no, literally nobody was around me. Nobody saw me. But, but you are the son of God in the scriptures that says this, you are the son of God. You are the king of Israel. So he realized then and there that Jesus was the Messiah. That God, the point is that God sees us, that God knows us. You know, I've definitely gone through that too in my life where, you know, I thought that God couldn't possibly identify with me, um, that God had abandoned me.

It's tough. Mm-hmm , it's not easy. Um, like you said, it takes years. I think when we grow in our prayer life, we, we tend to go through even desolation St. John of the cross would even put it this way. Something like this, that, uh, the closer we get to God, we are kind of blinded in faith because God is so close to us that we are our senses, our perception of him.

in the realm of faith. Like we're literally blinded if that makes sense, because he's drawing so close to us. I think that sometimes that's helpful for people to hear too, that God is, God is so close to you that maybe you, maybe you don't realize it because he's so close to you. Yeah. And that's so one thing I I've learned follow over the years is that when I would kinda wrestle with God, like you said, I would let out my anger and I would just ask him, like, where were you?

Cause I felt abandoned by you. Um, what I learned through, you know, a lot of prayer, spiritual direction silence is that he just wasn't there kinda watching from the sidelines, watching me get beat up, watching me suffer. He was right there in the midst of it with me. And I believe that beyond a shadow of a doubt now, like I'm so convicted by that.

And yeah, I think it's helpful to remember that. Um, sometimes another priest said this, he said, sometimes God's only response to our pain is his presence. Amen. And so he's there, even if we can't feel him, even if we can't see him, he he's often there silently working through the circumstances through other people to, to, to be the, for us to help us.

But we might not always see that immediately. One of the things that helped me, Joey, when my parents got divorced my first year of seminary and I was having those panic attacks, which thank God I, I, you know, I don't experience so much, uh, panic or anxiety anymore. Thanks me to God. I think as I get older, one of the prayers that I would often say is Jesus, I trust in you.

Jesus. I trust in you. I would take my rosary beads and I would just say it around the beads. Jesus, I trust in you. Jesus. I trust in you. I had to put my focus on him and not myself when I focused on myself and my own brokenness and the, my own whirlwind that was going around in my life. You know, I felt like during those years, that, especially that first year of seminary, I felt like I was on the boat with Jesus.

And he was at the helm of the boat of the boat sleeping mm-hmm and that I was like, screaming Lord, like I'm in this boat, wake up. like, I like, I feel like it's going to tip over, wake up. Yeah. But you know, the reality is like, like I've, I've come to experience also in my prayer life and my personal life that, you know, what.

I mean, God never sleeps. Obviously he knew exactly what was going on in that boat. mm-hmm and he knows what's going on in the, the listeners, um, listening. Now he knows your pain better than you do. God knew my pain better than I did. So I had to shift to focus from myself to him. If that makes, does that make a little bit of sense?

Um, yeah. Yeah, no, it does. I think when I shift it to him and to say Jesus, like, I, I, I can't trust. I need your help Lord, in order to trust, I can't trust because I've been relationships in my life have failed. Have been broken down. I feel crushed. Lord, how am I supposed to trust when I have all this happening around me?

when I've had this relationship falling, fallen apart in my life. I think that's where we need to lean on God to lean on our Lord and to ask him to restore that trust because he can restore it and to be patient with ourselves. Again, I need to emphasize that again, to be, to be very patient with our ourselves in this process.

That's great advice. Another trend that we've seen with people come from broken homes is that we tend to have. More distorted image of God. And I think all of us as humans have a distorted image of God, but for those of us who come from broken homes, we tend to think of God like our parents. Like we tend to project our parents' behavior, what they were like onto God thinking he must be the same.

What, what are some of the most common misconceptions that, that you've seen people have about God and, and how do you, how do we undo that? How do we, UNTW those distorted, that distorted image that we have of God, that's a great question. We need to bring those to God for healing, but at the same time, like you said, how can we bring those two God for healing?

If we have, um, a false image in our own mind, a false conception of the father, if we don't want to approach the father, it's definitely, like I said, it's a work in progress. And to ask for that healing, the Lord says in Matthew seven chapter seven, asking you shall receive. seek and you shall find knock and the door shall be open unto you.

I can't do it myself. I need the help of God. And also the help of other people. I think having good friendships definitely helps. Mm-hmm one of the things, um, I think that, you know, especially with, um, broken homes and broken relationships, there can be a, a whole facet of things that we're dealing with here.

Joey, we can deal there's there's things. Um, there there's the father wound, there's a false image of the father there's we can project on God, the father, our own image of who we think and know our own earthly father to be mm-hmm and that's really, uh, unhealthy. We can be afraid to approach God because of that.

And just, just the whole. The reality of having relationships, we can struggle with trust because our trust has been broken. And so it's hard for us to imagine ourselves trusting in a loving father when we've had our own father, not even come to remotely close to what we deserve. I've seen people having mother wounds in relationships, in broken relationships and, and that too affects our relationship with, with the Lord.

Yeah. I like to mention, you know, I know some maybe used to not, not, not used to hearing about, uh, the blessed Virgin Mary, um, and certainly the blessed Virgin Mary is not. She's not a goddess Catholics do not worship Mary in any sort or fashion or imagination. Um, she is the mother of God. She's a creature.

Godd is a creator. God is the Redeemer. God is the Messiah. The blessed Virgin Mary is a great model, but it shows to you that God gives us, you know, as Catholics, we believe in the community of the saints. Uh, we believe that we have friends in heaven that have lived this earthly life and struggle just as we have, and that are here, they're here for us to be our friends.

So I think that it can be helpful to in the spiritual life to bring in the lives of the saints. because the saints are not perfect themselves. The bless of Virgin Mary, obviously she was, you know, immaculate. She was perfect. She was, you know, without sin from the moment of her conception. So she is different in many ways, but the saints are imperfect.

The saints were made perfect by God's grace by God's help. And that's, that's where we enter into the picture, I think is we bring ourselves everything that we are good and bad, the mess that we are. mm-hmm we bring that into the realm of grace and we ask God to transform it, to unravel the mess. There's a devotion, our lady endure of knots, and it's a beautiful image of our lady taking these knots of our life.

That. We've we all have them, whatever they may be, but she's taking her hands and she's literally trying to unravel the knots in her life. And, and we as Catholics know that she's doing that by God's help by God's grace. There's nothing in our lady that she is doing for us. That is apart from God, everything that we understand that she is doing in our life is she is doing it with, with God's help in the realm of grace, you know, in the realm of grace, like our blessing mother, the Lord gives us a mother in the order of grace to, to mother us to bring us healing.

And I think that's helpful for some people that may have an experience of a mother. Who has hurt them. I'd like to bring that up too. Maybe there's, uh, somebody that has horrible experiences of their own mother. I, I don't, I, my mother is amazing. nobody's perfect. But I would say she is . My mother is near perfect, but you know, the Lord gives us our blessed mother, I think, in that realm of the communion of the saints, uh, to help bring us to Jesus.

That's the only thing I, I, I like to simply end the, this section by saying that our lady is transparent. She is completely transparent. It's not about her. It's about the Lord. So when you look at her, when you think about her, whenever you go to her, you're going you're, you're, you're going to Jesus. She's bringing you to the Lord.

So I think she can be very helpful in bringing you to Jesus. And also Jesus is the image of the invisible God. Ultimately it's in Jesus who corrects our understanding of the father. I think if I can say that. Yeah, no. So good. Jesus ultimately corrects our understanding of fatherhood of who God, the father is.

He reveals the father. So when we look at Jesus in the gospels, when we come to know Jesus, our whole conception of fatherhood is healed. Again, this, this is a lifetime of process. This is not, you know, we will always grow in our knowledge of, of, of the Lord and our love and, and are going to the father. But that's where somebody can begin is by going to Jesus and even going to the saints, going to our bless a.

So good. You hit on so many great points. One of the, a few of the things that helped me a lot when it came to kind of healing that distorted image of God that I had were some of the things that you just mentioned first off scripture, because just like if you had a bad, you know, a misconception about another person, like a friend, let's say, or a coworker, uh, one of the ways overcome that is by spending time with that person to see what they're actually like.

Yeah. Not just what you think they're like, but what are they actually like? And I know scripture's a perfect way to do that. And so, uh, drawing close to God through, through scripture, learning about him, listening to really his love letter to us that has been so helpful for me. The other thing of course is prayer, um, specifically to sacraments, but also just mental prayer, silent prayer, personal prayer speaking, you know, one-on-one with Jesus, like that has been so helpful, uh, for me in my life.

And then the last thing is what you mentioned the saints and to anyone who isn't Catholic listening, it can be kind of confusing, but we're basically talking about people who had such deep intimacy with God that he transformed their entire life to the point where they live lives of heroic virtue, right.

They just had the, these good habits in their lives. Their hearts, uh, tended to do what is good. And so their, their lives, them as individuals reflect who God truly is. And so we can learn through them what God is actually. So that, that has been so helpful for me, especially looking at modern saints, people who I can relate to a little bit more than maybe someone who was, you know, alive a thousand years ago.

Not that not to put them down. I'm sure they're awesome. But, um, but for me personally, that's been so helpful. And now at the same time, someone who did live a while ago, St. Joseph, and I remember a priest telling me once that if you struggle with that father wound, if you struggle going to God, the father start with St.

Joseph, because more than anyone, he best reflects what God the father's actually like. And so, um, through scripture, through maybe other books or resources that kind of dive into looking at the life of Joseph, uh, we can get a glimpse into what God the father's actually like. And man, if you do that, it is beautiful.

And it's not what you think. Because again, we tend to think that maybe God, the father is an identical person to our father, and that is not the case at. I wanna go into something very specific here about trust. So you mentioned this a couple times. Trust can be really difficult for those of us who maybe have that misconception of God.

We felt abandoned by God may maybe feel abandoned by God. And so we feel like it's impossible to trust him or to trust anyone. In addition to what you've already said, is there anything in particular you would add when it comes to learning to trust God? I think in drawing close to God, one of the things that helped me is Eucharistic adoration to draw close to God and to just let him love you.

That's one of the things that I think when in my own personal life, uh, my personal journey in coming to know who I was in God's eyes, that he loved me, uh, that he died for me, uh, that he knows who I am. It all kind of stems around and really flows from. When I would draw close to him in the blessed sacrament, I, I would re I would recommend spending time in quiet reflection and Eucharistic adoration.

And one of the things Joey, as I mentioned earlier about my, uh, being kind of the fast and furious in the cars and stuff like that, my life was very noisy. Um, I had not just a $4,000 car stereo system. I had all that, um, at a very young age, I had, you know, the cell phones that now the kids have smartphones and mm-hmm and the pager and all that stuff.

I had all that stuff back in 1995. So I was, wow. I was pretty ABO, uh, I was, I was kind of ahead of my days and doing all that stuff. I went from being immersed in like a noisy life, um, and trying to go and spend time in. Adoration or in the church with the Lord and I couldn't do it. I couldn't, there was, there was so much in my life that that was preventing me from that.

I would say this not just exterior noise, it wasn't solely about the exterior noise, the, the 4,000 hour car stereo system that I had pounding in my ears. But Joey, I had so much internal noise, so much baggage. That was just, I think, preventing me from trusting in Lord, in the Lord in listening to his voice.

And I think when, when you go to the Lord, just ask him in all sincerity Lord, you know, help me to trust in you, help me to unpack this baggage in my life. You know, I often tell. Couples that when they're preparing for marriage, that you need to help each other unpack in a sense, your life, the mess of your life.

Let's get it all out on the table now in marriage preparation so that we can deal with it. If you don't unpack it now, then ultimately it's gonna end up exploding later. Um, you can't stuff it in a closet, uh, for no one to see it's going to end up exploding. So we need to deal with our, with our wounds healthy in a healthy manner, by bringing them to God by bringing them.

And I would, and also like to say, not just to the Lord, but bring them to other people as well. One of the things besides your, your podcast, which, you know, I started listening to, I found out, um, not too long ago about it, so I, we kind of have a history going back. So it, it's kind of interesting that the Lord would bring us back together.

Um, yeah, I went to the holy land with you in 2014. So it's just, it's just interesting how God just draws all these lines. I know it's incredible. Yeah. I looked up to you a lot at and on that pal was great, but I, I went on a retreat with a group called life giving wounds mm-hmm and I would like to, to plug them to encourage the viewers, not just to listen to, to Joey's podcast and also anything that Joey has to offer on his, on his website.

And, but also a ministry that Joey's been involved with too called life giving wounds. I did a retreat with them, uh, during the fall of C. and to be honest, I wanna say that for me, that was one of the graces of COVID for me, one of the biggest graces was going on that retreat. And I was able to listen to speakers and people a lot like myself, mm-hmm , uh, people who are listening right now who have those same wounds, that same type of baggage from being adult, adult, child of divorce.

And it was so healing for me. So I might encourage you to, to look them up, to look at their website. They, they offer retreats, uh, throughout the year in person retreats and also, uh, retreats that are virtual. I think that could be a. Thank you for throwing that out there. Yeah. Dr. Daniel Melo, the guy who started it, he came on the, uh, the podcast in episode nine.

So if anyone wants to go back and listen, uh, about that, you can, that we talked a little bit more about the format of the retreat, kind of what happens on the retreat, just to give you some of an idea of what it would be like to go on it. So check out episode nine, if you want to, uh, to learn more about that.

And father, just in closing out the show. Sure. There's so many people who, who feel far from God, especially people who come from broken homes and they might not want anything to do with him. They might not be ready for all those God stuff that we're talking about, which I get like, like I, I get where they're at.

What would you say? Just a couple things. One, like, why is a relationship with God? So healing, why does it make our lives better? And what's that first step we need to take in order to, to begin that that's a great question. God draws near to us and he understands you. He understands, uh, your brokenness better than you do yourself, uh, better than your best friend does.

A lot of us are used to talking to somebody, uh, that we trust perhaps a, a close friend, and we might confide things to a close friend. But what about your maker? What about your creator? You know, I often look up, I've always been kind of a stargazer me too. As a child, I'd always look up at the stars, Joey, and, and I, I always kind of like Marvel, like, wow, like this is so awesome when I go to Hansville, it's amazing because it's not near the city and you can see the stars, like they're they're, they, they, they look almost close to you.

You can, you almost feel like you can reach out and touch a star. . You know, the reality is that, okay, God has created all of this. I look up at that. I'm like, God, you are magnificent. You have created all this and you're sustaining it right now, but I I'm worth more than what I'm looking. What I'm looking at.

This, this magnificent work of your hands, the stars, like each one of us is worth more than that. And that he, he knows me. He knows who I am and he knows who you are. And I think for you to realize that you don't need to be perfect in order for God to love you. You can come to him as you are. And God wants us obviously to grow in holiness and he will assist us in that journey.

He doesn't force us by any of the stretch of the imagination. He doesn't force us. To love him. Um, he gives us the freedom to love him, but I just wanna encourage our listeners that just draw close to God as you are, and be surprised, be surprised with what he'll do with that incredible father. Thank you so much for, for coming on the show.

Uh, what's the best way that people could follow you, connect with you if they want. I have no social media actually no Facebook or, uh, YouTube or, but I do, uh, in the Franciscan missionaries of the eternal word, my community has social media outlets, obviously. Uh, so they can go to Francisco, missionaries of the eternal word on Facebook, on YouTube.

And we put up all kinds of videos every week for people. A lot of people like our videos that we put up every week, Instagram Franciscan, missionaries on Instagram, and also, um, E w TN, obviously we are involved. Our, our ministry is a global ministry and we preach the gospel. That's our charism is to preach the gospel through the media.

Uh, that's our mission. And that that's, what's been entrusted to us. So, uh, for me to be on here with you is kind of, I feel like I'm at home. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's, it's great to have you. I hope you felt like you were at home and it it's so good to, to bring you on the show and it's been, uh, great to reconnect with you recently.

And I look forward to staying in touch with you. And, but before we close here, I just wanna give you the last word. Is there anything that you'd like to say in closing, uh, any encouragement or advice to, to someone who, who comes from a broken home who feels very broken, who feels stuck in life because of the breakdown of their family?

I've been there. I'm I am there. I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. I'm sorry for what has happened to you. I'm sorry for the wounds in your life, uh, that you may have experienced by the breakup of, um, your family, your mom and dad, but I can promise you that when you bring those wounds, To God that he can make something beautiful out of it.

He can make the most beautiful symphony out of a very tragic note. Um, it's kind of like a, when a discordant note is introduced into a symphony or a choir, that note can be like a wreck and can really shatter a symphony or a beautiful piece that a choir is singing. But God can start over on that discordant note on that ugly note, even.

God can make a beautiful masterpiece and he wants to make a masterpiece out of your life.

One takeaway from me from that episode was that often it's more difficult to let God love us than it is to love him. And so we really need to just let him love us, just let him see us. And so one challenge for you is just. To spend some time with God as you would with a friend. And this whole idea of prayer can maybe be foreign to some people.

But basically if God is all knowing if he is all powerful, then he knows your thoughts. He knows you, but he doesn't just wanna know you. He wants a relationship with you. And the benefit of being all powerful and all knowing is that you can easily communicate with him since he can hear you anywhere. And so this challenge is this, the exercise is this, just go to a quiet place.

This could be your closet. It can be somewhere outside, wherever, go to a quiet place, shut off your phone and just sit in silence for 10 minutes. Don't move at all. Except for your breathing. Just sit in silence. It's really hard to do. Like it's a good challenge. Try it. And then during that time you could just stay silent and just let God look at you.

Or if you feel like it, talk to. Tell him about the problems in your life. Tell him about the pain that you're experiencing. Tell him what's on your mind. Tell him what's on your heart. Tell him what's happening in your family, whatever you wanna say, tell it to him. And don't expect an audible response.

Something that you can hear with your ears, but know that he's listening to you and know that he's gonna try to find ways. To communicate with you that probably aren't gonna be very direct, but if you look for it, you'll see it. And we'll be talking about that more in other content. But one thing that's really helped me when it comes to praying to God or when it comes to just healing on a spiritual level is having a spiritual director.

A spiritual director is like a spiritual coach. And some of the benefits to, uh, having a spiritual director is they can just help you grow in your relationship with God. They can help you heal your relationship with God and just overcome some of those barriers that we've talked about. And so we're building a network it's not ready at this recording, but perhaps by the time you're listening to this, the network of spiritual directors is ready for you.

And so, uh, you can use our network. And these are people that we trust that we recommend people who are trained in spiritual direction, who can give you the help and the tools that you need to, to grow in your relationship with God grow spiritually. And this network's gonna save you a lot of time in helping you find someone who can direct you.

And so it's really easy. To to find a spiritual director, just go to restored ministry.com/coaching. Again, restored ministry ministry, singular.com/coaching. Fill out a form and then we'll connect you with a spiritual director. Once the network is ready to go again, that's restored ministry.com/coaching.

Fill out the form today. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministrydotcomslashfortythreerestoredministry.com slash four three. Thank you so much for listening. This has been a long episode. Appreciate you making it to the end. And if it's been useful for you, invite you to subscribe and to share this podcast with someone, you know, who could use it.

Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#042: What is Broken Can Be Repaired | Shenandoah Lawson

As people from broken homes, we fear repeating the dysfunction we experienced in our families. But sometimes, we end up going down that path. Our guest today dealt with that in a very real way. 

Years after her parents divorced, she found herself in the exact place she never wanted to be: Going through her own divorce, feeling so broken and empty. But thankfully, her story and her marriage’s story doesn’t end there. In this episode, you’ll hear how her marriage was rescued and more:

• What was happening in her head and heart as her marriage fell apart

• How she wrestled with depression, suicidal thoughts, and a bad relationship with her father

• How she felt like she was inadequate and didn’t deserve love

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• Article: My Parents Divorce Made It Hard for Me to Believe in Lasting Love

• Shenandoah Lawson

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  • Email: shenlawson@gmail.com

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

For people like us from broken homes. One of the biggest fears that we have is repeating the dysfunction that we experience in our own families, repeating the mistakes that we saw, especially in our parents' marriage. We just don't wanna go down that path. But the scary truth is sometimes we do.

Sometimes we end up repeating the same mistakes, the same patterns that we saw, even if we despise them, even if we hate them, even if we don't want to do that. My guests today dealt with that in a very real way. She came from a broken family. Her parents got divorced. And so naturally she never wanted to repeat that.

She never wanted the brokenness and the dysfunction to continue in her own life and in her own marriage. But years later, she found herself in the exact place. She never wanted to be going through her own divorce feeling, just so broken and really on the brink of. Now, thankfully her story and her husband's story, doesn't end there.

There's a really beautiful ending that you'll hear in the episode, but we don't just skip to that. We touch on the messy parts in between. And so what you're gonna hear in this episode is my guess she takes us inside her head and into her heart. As her marriage just fell apart, especially how hopeless she felt and what she did as a response to that.

She opens up about how she blamed herself for her parents' divorce and even dealt with depression and suicidal thoughts. She shares about her struggles and her relationship with her dad and how her family pretended that everything was okay when it really wasn't. We touch on the, the numerous ways that she struggled in her relationships because of the breakdown of her parents' marriage and family, how she felt like nobody would ever love her because she felt inadequate.

Like she didn't deserve love. She even said that she never wanted to really let anyone have power over her, whether that was a boyfriend or just a friend, she never wanted anyone to have power over her. And that came out in her actions. And she also just gives advice and encouragement to anyone out there who comes from a broken home.

And this interview is just so moving. It's so personal and it's really living proof. My guess she is living proof that it's possible to repair something that is very broken, so many great lessons, so many great stories in this episode. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host joy Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 42 and today my guess is Shenandoah Lawson. She is a, a wife, a mother, and a film producer.

She was born and raised in Southern California, but she currently lives in Ireland with her husband and her daughter, her and her husband actually own a small remote production company and they enjoy collaborating and creating together. And like I mentioned, this interview is very personal. It's very raw.

Um, it's kind of heavy at parts and some of you might even think during the interview, are you allowed to talk about this stuff on a podcast? The answer is yes. If we don't, who will, the sad truth is that children of divorce have been huge. Neglected for far too long, they deserve a voice they deserve to be heard.

And that's what we're gonna do here at restore. And there's someone out there right now who really needs to hear this conversation. They feel alone. They feel abandoned. Heck maybe they're even on the brink of despair suicide. So yes, for the sake of that person and for the millions of people like them.

Yes, we can. And we have to talk about this stuff. If we don't who. My guess is a Catholic Christian. And so in this conversation, you're gonna hear us talk about God and about faith. And so if that's not your background, as I usually do, I just challenge you to listen with an open mind. You're still gonna benefit a lot from this conversation, even if you don't believe in God.

And I'm so happy you're here. We obviously don't just exist for religious people. We exist for everyone, for people like you. And so really happy you're here. And I, I know you're gonna get a lot of this episode, so go into it with an open mind.

SHEO welcome to the show. Hi Joey. Thanks so much for having me. It's a pleasure to have you. My wife and I were talking about you yesterday. Actually we were saying that you have a beautiful name Shenandoah. Oh, it's it's awesome. Where did it come from? I'm just curious. Thanks. Yeah, it's actually, um, a river and valley in Virginia.

So there's actually the Shenandoah national park over there in Virginia. Yeah. And so, um, I. You know, funny enough when I, for work reasons, I lived in Virginia, I, you know, was right there right next to my river, basically the Shenandoah. Nice. Yeah. So, and it's that native American name? My there's several translations, but my favorite translation, that means daughter of the stars.

Mmm. Wow. Beautiful. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a very unique name and, and a beautiful name, like I said, so yeah. Such a pleasure to have you on the show, you were 12 years old when your parents divorced. Yes. Mm-hmm. if you would take us there, like what happened? How did you react to it? Sure. Yeah. So unfortunately, like my parents were those two people that should have never gotten married to begin with.

They only got married because my mom was pregnant with my older sister Sequoia, another unique name. so I love it. Um, yeah, so, you know, it was Rocky from the start. My father was very manipulative because my mom was at the time, not there legally. Um, he kind of threatened her into dating and then marrying him and all.

Kind of saying that he would take us away if they, if they, uh, divorced. And my dad had this very twisted idea of faith cuz you know, um, his parents, I guess you could say they were being Hispanic, they were culturally Catholic cultural Catholics, but they weren't practicing mm-hmm so he had kind of a twisted idea of faith and um, what he thought was right or wrong and you know, what he could go to hell for.

And so he kind of brought a lot of that, um, fear into the relationship and basically told my mom like, yeah, we have to get married, cuz if not, we're gonna go to hell . And so she did, she, she married him and things were always Rocky. Like they, they always were fighting when I was growing up and unfortunately.

Like, I guess they thought adopting would make things better, but it didn't, we, uh, they adopted three, my three younger siblings, uh, one of which has passed, uh, last year, unfortunately that was Tony in a motorcycle accident. Yeah. Thank you. Um, but yeah, so they ended up adopting and then things actually just, they got worse from there.

There was, um, abuse, you know, verbal and physical abuse that happened and things were just very bad. And I remember them sitting us down and telling us, like, we, we thought we were gonna get the op kids were, were getting a divorce talk and instead it was like, okay, um, well we're not getting divorced, but.

Dad is going to live in an apartment and you're still gonna see him almost every day, but, you know, we were gonna live with our mom and then our dad was gonna come over and, you know, see us and homeschool us because we were homeschooled. And, um, and so we're like, okay, that's kind of weird, but we were kind of relieved.

Like it wasn't like, okay, they're not completely divorced, but we're actually gonna get some peace mm-hmm and yeah, but then there was, I, I basically found out that my mom was starting to see someone else and I didn't know what to do, like as a Catholic kid. And we were kind of, we grew up volunteering at, uh, senators medical center at the time.

It was a hospital then medical center, basically with the CARite sisters. And, you know, so we actually grew up with a lot of. Instruction and knowledge about the faith, I would say. And so I knew as a kid, like, okay, my mom's seen someone else. My parents are still married. That's not wrong. I mean, that's not right.

So I, I went to my older sister and I'm like, look, I know this is what's happening. What do we do? Like, what do I do? How do I react? And she was just like, oh, well, like we have to tell dad. I was like, really do we have to? Okay. And that kind of set a chain of. To where basically then my parents were getting, uh, a divorce and then fighting over custody.

And that in itself was just a horrible experience, you know, having to go into a counselor and we had our dad telling us all the things that we couldn't tell her, because he was like, if you tell them that, then you're never gonna see each other again, they're gonna take you guys away from us. You're never gonna see your parents, you know, us, your parents again.

So it was just like, wow. Lies, lies, lies, and kind of a bit more about the lies was we were part of a church, uh, at the time, which a lot of my friends that I, you know, that I have or people I, I have met up and spoken with afterwards, they're like, oh yeah, I was, I went there. We went there for a short time.

It was basically this. I wanna call it a dysfunctional parish because there was just like a lot of hypocrisy there, which is sad because like, that's the thing I've seen is a lot of times the most hypocritical people are the ones who claim to be Christian and God fearing people. Mm-hmm . Um, and so we had friends from this church and.

You know, they would come over to our house. We had some really good family friends. And when my parents started, you know, separating at first, there was even lies around that. Like, don't tell them that we're separating and my dad would even keep like his shoes next to the bed for like, if they had to go through the room to, you know, go to the restroom.

And I was like that, that's how big the lie was. Like, we're even pretending at that point that my dad was still there. You know, mm-hmm and so. That was the biggest thing was just like being told and like to lie in this way or that way. And always having to like, be thinking about the lies because you had to get it right.

You couldn't let something slip to your friends, even, you know? So that was just like a horrible mind. yeah. A mind game, you know, as, as a kid growing up. And then when we, when my parents finally did, um, separate and my dad won the custody, then there was a continued physical abuse from my younger siblings.

And then it was just a lot of like, uh, verbal and mental abuse for my older sister and myself. So I ended up leaving my dad when I was 19. I went back to live with my mom and I kind of. Estranged myself from him. Um, I did try to make contact once and, you know, we started talking for a little, but then right away, it was just like toxic, um, all over again.

And so I was just like, I'm, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna put myself through that. And so, um, I never, I never spoke to him again. I just saw him at my brother's funeral. We didn't speak. And then, um, he actually passed away, uh, just a month ago. Hmm. Jen, I'm so sorry. Wow. Yeah. Thanks. You've said a lot. I mean, yeah, it's been, you know, it was hard cuz my brother was two, 2019 in November and he actually passed away just the week before I had to go into, uh, filming for the documentary I was telling you about.

So, you know, just had that right in front right before that big thing for myself. And so it was, that was difficult, but you know, I pulled through and uh, yeah then. Just kind of this whole thing with COVID I don't know. Can I say that word? yeah, it's just like that whole thing over here and just, uh, everything that surrounds it with not being able to go to church and then finding out like, you know, my, my birth father has passed away, which, um, I mean, I can't say that I felt anything, cuz I had just estranged myself for so long, but in a way it did bring peace, but then it also just brought a certain type of mourn for uh, knowing that I just wouldn't have, like my, my daughter would never meet my father, you know?

Like mm-hmm that, that was just a sad reality. Absolutely. And so it sounds like man, there's been so much happened recently in your life. That has probably brought up a lot of, um, the brokenness and a lot of, you know, past memories, but it sounds like things at home originally were just very dysfunctional to the point where something needed to change.

And, you know, I bet you and your siblings hope that there could be, you know, healing and like positive change there, but it sounds like that just didn't happen. So there was some sort of a relief by the fact that your parents separated and then later divorced, which makes sense. And I think a lot of people can relate with that.

And then maybe later on we realize, you know, we're able to see a little bit more clearly how dysfunctional things were at. And then able to kinda understand the impact, not only of the dysfunction, but also of the breaking apart of our parents' marriage. It's a lot to, to swallow. It's a lot to handle and then add in, you know, everything else that happens in life.

Like you, you know yeah. Have experienced in the past year. Yeah, exactly. And I guess the other thing just as a, a young adult, like, you know, I was going into my teens and then my young adults with, you know, my divorced parents. I mean, for a lot of kids that might seem more normal. Oh. But even just to be looked at as like, oh, that's the, the kid with whose parents are divorced, but being a Catholic kid with your parents' divorce was like, A whole different level as well.

Like there was a whole other level of feeling judged, especially by people at the church. Like in fact, people that we thought were friends stopped talking to us as a family. And so we, we ended up leaving that church just because, you know, we, we felt the, what felt like rejection and it was just because they didn't wanna get involved.

They didn't wanna feel like, oh, we're taking aside, you know, either my father or my mother. And so they just made their distance completely and we ended up yeah, just leaving because it was like an obvious kind of distancing that happened. And, um, a couple of the families that were at that parish, we were a part of ended up separating and divorcing also.

And it's just like here, all of our parents were having. You know, going on and none of them were talking about it to each other. I was just, I'm thinking back now. And it's like, imagine if, instead of trying to appear perfect and having it all together, if a little bit humility was had to open up to your Catholic friends, um, or just your friends in general and say, look, we're having these problems.

They could have turned around and been like, oh my gosh, we're having these problems too. And then talk about it. And then maybe things would've been resolved to where, you know, they all could have helped each other with their relationships to where they could have stayed together. So that, that's kind of the sad reality is that at least in that time and in that environment, Whether it was just at that parish or anywhere outside of there, you know, they didn't feel like they could open up and talk, which is why I think that, you know, this show is so great, like that you're actually allowing the conversation to happen.

Thank you. And, um, how these things yeah. Affect people and, uh, actually allow people to validate their emotions too, just because as kids, you know, you're, you don't, um, a lot of things happen, like you end up. Well, for instance, for me, I closed off from talking like opening up to either of my parents. Cuz you don't want to hurt one.

You don't wanna find, you don't want one parent to find out, oh like you told that to, you know, your mom, like why didn't you confide that to me? Absolutely. And have feelings hurt. So you just shut down and you know, that's just one thing that happens and that shut down, like the fact that you're shutting down.

It doesn't just affect, you know, your relationships with them. Like my relationships were then guarded ever since that point mm-hmm so, I mean, that was just, you know, one way that it, it affected me moving forward. Yeah, absolutely. It affected me in A's very similar way and I kind of always loved at arm's length.

One of my relationships, I I'm yeah. Convinced that it failed because I just was so distant. Like I just wouldn't be vulnerable. And that's what you, when you just said that about your parents and, and that small Catholic community, how they weren't vulnerable at all, they were just putting up this facade that everything was fine when everything really was not fine.

And what I've seen is that it's typically driven by shame. You know, this belief that there's something inherently wrong with us, that if people knew what was happening, they just wouldn't love us. They wouldn't accept us. And I've seen that left and right. Um, especially when it comes to brokenness within marriage and, you know, marriages that I knew.

And so, yeah, like you said, you know, vulnerability is the antidote to shame. And so if you're not being vulnerable, you're gonna still feel ashamed. You're gonna hide. You're gonna pretend like everything's fine when it's really not. And I have seen so much hypocrisy too, among Christians among Catholics.

Uh, who, again, pretend that everything's good. And then you realize there's been like multiple fears going on. There's been all these very messy and ugly things that could have been avoided if, you know, they asked for help. But, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I mean, also just feeling like a, like a bad Catholic, like I said, that the whole thing about feeling judged, like not only because we're a part of a family unit and so it's, it carries over, like, I think that's the other thing is, uh, parents think it's just between them, but it's like the whole family, the whole unit is judged and the children feel that, like, I felt that as a child, like totally, um, it was, you know, palatable just how you could kind of taste, uh, the judgment at times, you know?

And, and it carried on for me as well, even just being a Catholic, I always kind of felt like I was like a bad Catholic. Like I'm a different Catholic. I, I could never be as good as other Catholics just because this is like, this is where I come from. Totally. So it sounds like you carry around a lot of shame with you as well.

And man, that's so debilitating carrying that through the years. It was, and I'm no, I can relate with you on so many levels, especially just struggles in your relationship with your dad. I, there was a point where I just didn't agree with the way that my dad was behaving. And so I just told him, Hey, I'm not gonna be able to talk to you until I see some real change in your life.

And so it was like year, year and a half timeframe. So nowhere near as long as what you went through. But, um, yeah, it's, it's a difficult thing to have to do that. Like kids should never have to do that. We should never have to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Especially lie, you know, it's like, I think that was one of the worst things was ha um, being told, you know, this is what you're gonna say.

This is how we're gonna explain this. Like for instance, my, my dad had. Crap. Um, basically he pushed my brother's head into a plate and it busted his forehead open and we had to go around telling people that he had fallen off his scooter, you know, and that's what he got a gash on his forehead. And I mean, just like, yeah, things like that, you know, um, they, they affect a child like.

Telling, and that's why I always grew up like a hated line. And, and when I left my dad, like that was one of the biggest things it's like, I'm not gonna stand for, um, for lies and I'm, I'm not gonna lie. Like honesty is, is so important. And at least that's one thing that I've learned that I've carried into my relationship, my relationships now mm-hmm um, and I have to call some family members on it.

And when, when I catch them line, I'm like, no, no, I know you're lying. Like don't lie to me, you know? Yeah. Like I I'm okay. I'm okay with the truth. Like, it might not be what I wanna hear or what I completely, um, am in line with, but I would rather, you know, know you and talk to you with, with knowing that then have you go about lying to me?

Yeah. And eventually all that's gonna come to the surface anyway, in one way or another. And so mm-hmm, the painful truth. And now is better than, you know, just this whole mess of lies that comes out in the future. And yeah, there's this, uh, one guy that I look up to who it recently came out, that he was like having multiple affairs and things like that.

And it's just, it's, it's just so shocking and sad to, to see that, but that's where it all leads. It's eventually it's gonna come to the light and it's just so, so messy. Yeah, exactly. In the years that followed, how did you deal with all this? Like how did your parents' divorce affect you? How did the dysfunction, uh, affect you in the years that followed?

Right. Well, in the biggest way, I could definitely tell you it affected my relationships. Like I didn't date until I was about 22 and that was just circumstance. I was busy with like things that I pursued that I, that I loved and my parents' relationship really had an effect on me and how I viewed myself as being able to be loved.

and it didn't help that the first relationship I landed in, I didn't even wanna be in a relationship with this person, but he was basically saying, you know, you're never gonna find anyone who loves you as much as I do. And I was just like, gosh, maybe he's right. Maybe I won't ever find anyone who loves me, you know?

Um, may like maybe, yeah, maybe this is my last chance, you know? And so, yeah. Um, you know, I, I got into that relationship that was, um, yeah, that I didn't even wanna be a part of, but it was just that. That voice in my head of saying you don't deserve love. Like you're lucky to have it. And I think that also came from my dad often telling me, like, you, you cry too much.

You don't deserve to cry. Like you have it so good compared to other kids. And that carried over as well. It's like, I don't deserve this. I don't deserve that. Okay. Do I deserve to be happy? Maybe I don't. And so it carried into me getting into, you know, bad relat. And into not valuing myself enough and into, um, the false belief that, that I didn't deserve to have the things that I wanted most because I never had it.

You know, I, I wanted a family. I wanted that, that happy family that I saw, some of my friends having and funny enough, you know, yeah. Some of those families ended up falling apart too. Um, or sadly enough, I should say. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and it also led into like self-fulfilling prophecies, like, because I thought that way, like for instance, when, um, I was into dance for a while and I loved it and I really wanted to do it.

And my dad told me, you know, you don't have the body of a dancer. And it just like crushed me. Cause I was just like, you know, in my family we had, you know, bad knees, like my, you know, they just weren't, I guess you could say, yeah, like they're on the heavy side, at least my dad's side of the family, they were on, you know, heavy side have diabetes.

And so I started getting into dance and I was getting healthier and I, I was, you know, I wasn't a fat kid at that time and I was, you know, I was pretty chubby as a little kid. Sure. Um, which kind of affected me in other ways. And I look back and I do realize that I also was, um, uh, eating for comfort and I was also depressed.

I was chronically depressed, you know, as a young kid and that's just, you know, a whole other thing with that. But, uh, when my dad told me that like, yeah, you don't have the body of a dancer. We ended up winning a dance competition. We took Chris place for our cap, um, for our. Each group. Wow. And then the next rehearsal after that, um, I was doing some across the floor exercises and my knee just gave out and it just, um, yeah, it blew out right there.

um, during rehearsal and I wasn't able to even, you know, I was walking on crutches for weeks and then I moved onto a cane and I was just like my dad's right. You know, I don't have a body for this and I just kind of gave it up at that point. But you know, then once I left, like I still love dancing. I haven't done it in like an actual dance troop since that time, but, you know, uh, I, I still love dancing and, and I still do, especially.

With, uh, you know, my family or whenever we, we have the opportunity. Yeah. Wow. So there, it sounds like so many of the things that you learned in your family, you just carried with you through your life. And I remember reading the blog article that you wrote for ReSTOR. And one of the things you said in there really stuck out to me that you kind of always felt inadequate.

You felt like you needed to earn love based on your relationship, especially with your dad. And that one really hit me because I think so many of us feel that way. I, when my parents, uh, separated and later divorce, that was one of the feelings that I had. I couldn't put my finger on it as an 11 year old boy, but I just felt like I just wasn't good enough.

And then my reasoning was if I was why weren't mom and dad like working through this stuff. Mm-hmm . And so you articulated that really well. Talk about that a little bit, if you would. I think that, you know, you see it's so hard as a kid, not to. Think about yourself and especially think about yourself in the, in the full capacity of, of the family, which is a healthy thing.

Like we should be seen ourselves as a whole, like I said, as a family unit, when it's not just one person, you know, everyone's affected when something happens. Um, so as a kid, you know, when you're, when my parents were divorcing, you know, the first thought goes to, well, is it my fault? Is it something I did?

And then kind of like you said, you were just like, well, I'm not worth it for you to work things out, to pull it together to, you know, want. Us to all be happy together. Like, I, I'm not good enough. Like if maybe if I was better, if, you know, if I cleaned my room more, maybe you would not fight as much, you know?

And, and it's not, but, but that's, that's where my mind, you know, would sometimes go as a kid is like, gosh, maybe am I, am I lazy? You know, like if I, if I did more around the house, like, would it make, you know, mom less stress? And maybe she wouldn't have fought with dad, you know? Or they wouldn't have gotten into it because of this or that.

And, and it really like, it, it, things go around would go around and around in my head as to why. Because of me, you know, is this happening? And yeah, I think that that's when I could finally realize that, especially growing up and, um, finding out these reasons of why my parents were, would always fight so much.

Like we didn't know, it was just like mom and dad are fighting again. And we wouldn't understand, like, I couldn't tell you any of the dialogue that would go back and forth between them. Like, it just didn't make sense to me. Mm-hmm, why they would fight all the time. And then when I, you know, was growing up, was older.

And then especially when I moved back with my mom and then I started understanding and was told like, oh, this this happened. Or, um, you know, this is the reason between them like that, that they were fighting so much, you know? And, and so things started clicking and making sense, but they're not gonna tell you their personal problems as an adult.

You know, they're not gonna explain all that or be open about it to a child. So, you know, if they had. Like we said before, kind of had that humility to kind of open up about their faults. Like, Hey, you know, I'm not a perfect person. and I've made mistakes and sometimes you hurt a person. You know, sometimes you hurt people, even people that you love and you can hurt them so badly.

Sometimes that even though they forgive, you know, they can't really move past it. And that's where me and your mom are at. You know, if they had said something like that, that could have made more sense to me as a kid. Mm-hmm , but you know, when they just fight and you try to understand, and they're just like, keep out of it.

It's none of your business. Then you have to assume like, well, maybe they don't tell me because it's me. And like you said about the, having to prove yourself, like. It really was that it's just like moving forward, not wanting the same future, not wanting the same relationship that my parents had. I was just like, I have to do everything I can so that I don't fall into that same, you know, mess.

Like mm-hmm, I have to, you know, basically try as hard as I can in a relationship to, to be loved so that I can be noticed and valued. And, and, and I ended up giving too much, like too soon in relationships because of that. Sure. Um, and you know, it was just like, not even, um, Not even just emotionally, but just like even financially, I'd be like, well, I, I would have this thing go through my head where, where I would like, say pay for myself, even though it was like a date, I'd be like, well, no, I'm gonna pay this much because I don't wanna feel indebted to this person because, um, I, I don't want them to have power over me.

Like that was a thing that would go through my head. And that was just because you know, of my parents' relationship. And because I saw how both of them, um, seemed so trapped and I was just like, I don't wanna be trapped. So I'm gonna, you know, pay for myself with this. And I'll only let him pay for that.

And you know, that way, that way he can't have anything over me. And so, yeah, I mean, it really, I mean, the more I talk about it, I will definitely, you know, come up with more, um, reasons of how it affected me, but I mean, it, it's crazy. Just, uh, all the little things. Really stick to you when it comes to, to all of that.

And, and it came out in a bunch of little ways in return. Yeah. In the little ways. And that's, I think what a lot of people, especially who don't come from broken homes, maybe struggled to see it's like, if you just say, oh, there's just this little way that it affected me. Like one thing, even though it was like dozens of things, it might seem insignificant.

But when you put 'em all together, , it's, it's a lot, it's a lot to, and so, oh yeah. I'm tracking with you there. And one of the things you just said though, at the heart of it, it sounds like to me and you correct me, if I'm wrong here, a desire for control was kind of at the center of all of that, that you wanted to make this work.

You wanted to have the opposite of what your parents had. And so you were gonna do everything in your power. You were gonna control every factor that you could to make that a reality. Oh yeah. And that, that is exhausting. Isn't it? Oh, it is so exhausting. And, you know, like for instance, that first relationship, like he used to make fun of me all the time, um, about different things, because I would wanna have all the hard conversations up front and early, and he'd be like, why are you talking about that?

Like, who cares? How many kids we wanna have or are, are gonna have. And I'd be like, sure, well, it's an important conversation. Like we should be having that now. Sure. Um, if you're, if you're saying that you love me, like then there's only one way that that should end, which I would hope is in marriage. Um, unless you're just stringing me along.

And so, you know, I would bring up, you know, those harder conversations and yeah, I would basically get, get laughed at, I would get laughed at saying that I wanted to save myself for marriage. I would get laughed at for wanting to pray before meals. And again, it's just like, how did I get into that first relationship?

And it was just because I felt like maybe nobody else would love me. Yeah. And I think that's such a fear for so many of us, like there's hundreds and eventually thousands of people listening to this. And I know that those of us who come from broken homes, we feel that fear. And what happens, what they've found in the research, especially is that we are more likely to settle in relationships for people that we believe just won't leave.

That's like the only criteria that we go with and not, not that it's like someone who's ultra faithful that they won't leave, but just like, they're kind of just won't leave that's it? Yeah. Like, like maybe because there's no better prospect for them, they don't have ambition or something like that.

That's what some of the research has found. So it's just fascinating to me that we tend to settle because we're afraid that, like you said, no one else is gonna love. Another thing when it came to relationships is, you know, I had that first bad relationship. And then I actually, after I finally ended that relationship, I mean, overall, it was only seven months, so maybe that's not too long, but it was long enough for as bad as it was.

Sure. I actually got into a very beautiful relationship, you know, uh, it was kind of like long distance courting and everything, and that person ended our relationship. He said, you know, you're perfect. You're, you're beautiful. Um, you're all these things. I just, I lost my piece, you know, that's basically all that he could say.

And that just. Confused me to no end. I was like, okay. So I'm not good enough for the people who are bad for me, and I'm not good enough for, you know, I'm perfect, but you know, I'm perfect. But like where, where does this end? Like, is it always gonna be the case that even if a person values me and, you know, cares about me, that they are still going to leave me.

So am I ever going to find someone who is going to stay? And so that just kind of, um, set me down a whole other path of hurt and feeling inadequate. And I, I know he didn't mean to do that, but it was just, that's just where my mind took it, you know? And, and I just went down to thinking, okay, so basically my heart's never gonna be safe.

yeah, man. And we'd end up putting walls around our hearts and sounds like the message that you got from that relationship was you're too much. And you're not enough. It's like you're both and yeah. And not just that relationship, but all, both of your relationships. So, man, there's so much we could say there.

Um, you mentioned a little bit how you dealt with chronic depression and one of the things you did to cope with that was emotional eating. What were some other ways that you coped with the pain in the problems in your life and, and in unhealthy ways? Yeah, so I had, I developed, I guess, uh, an addictive personality because of just whatever the trauma I went through, you could say, and some of the things started off.

Okay. And some of the things just weren't ever okay. Um, at different points, uh, I've gone to alcoholism mm-hmm and that's just because of hurt and it also runs in the family, but same, sorry, I'm just getting a little emotional now. no, no together. No, you're totally fine. It is. It's an emotional topic. And a lot of times we.

Just kinda go through life with all this baggage, like all this brokenness that we carry with us, and then we don't really think about it. We don't really talk about it. And then we finally sit down and think about it and talk about it. And it does, it brings up some very strong emotions. And so no, you're, you're fine.

Yeah. I mean, yeah. We all feel that. So thank you for being vulnerable in that way. Yeah, no. Sure. So obviously, you know, I mean, luckily I could also kind of cut things cold Turkey. Like when I was in college, I was like addicted to diet Coke. And then it was just to the point where like, I just, um, I would have, I don't know how many cans a day and then it was really hurting my stomach and I was just like, you know what, I've gotta cut this.

And I did. And then, um, I got addicted to sports, uh, sport, um, Brazilian jujitsu, and I actually ended up then losing a lot of, uh, weight that I had. Gained from, uh, being addicted to food. And so, um, that was making me feel really good, but then I was just overdoing the training. I was training six days a week.

Um, and then I was wow. On some days training as many as three times a day. And so I was just kind of putting my body through so much, you know, I was starting to break down in, in different ways. And so, you know, it's, that's when a good thing can become a bad thing, , you know sure. Like too much of a good thing is a bad thing.

And I progressed very quickly with that just because I was doing it so frequently and so hardcore, but then, you know, the, the alcoholism was something that just kind of, um, every hard point or loss or, you know, ending of a relationship would kind of bring in this. This defect, uh, in, in me. And luckily I, I could always get out of it.

You know, when I had some, I would have to really focus myself, like, okay, this isn't helping me achieve my greater goal. What do I really want in life? And, you know, prayer was always like the biggest thing that would get me through, especially when I reached about 25. I just really kind of started playing the rosary every day and that was life changing.

And that actually helped me get out of my, you know, alcoholism, streaks. Beautiful. Wow. Incredible. And so you were basically in those things, you were looking for comfort, you were looking for an escape from the pain and the problems in your life. Whenever that message they would surface and approval approval mm-hmm

Yeah. And, and it was because I was just getting, you know, told how good I was getting like at, at different things, you know, when it, when I was dancing or when I got into acting or when it was jujitsu, like I would progress in, in these things because I would just, I always put. Everything into, into something.

And unfortunately, you know, when I do good, I do really good when I do bad. I do really bad. yeah, no, in between it's a, yeah. Not a lot of in between. Yeah. Wow. No, and, and that's, that's a great point about how too much of a good thing. Isn't good. It's bad. That's yeah. You know, even Brazil and jujitsu is like an awesome thing.

It's good to learn how to defend yourself. It's good exercise, like you said, but you took it a little too far. So man, so many lessons there on the flip side, what would you say were two or three things that really helped you cope in healthy ways and helped you heal? You already mentioned prayer. Uh, were there other things as well?

Yes. So, um, in an interesting twist, my husband and. We were actually married a couple years ago and we got divorced and, um, through a lot of prayer and therapy, we both ended up going to therapy. He got back in touch with me after, um, a year that we were separated and, you know, he came back realizing his, uh, his mistakes and saying that, you know, it, it was supposed to be me all along.

And we were actually, uh, able to talk through everything. You know, we, we wanted to make sure like that this wasn't just feelings that we were going back on, that we, we were missing each other for the right reasons. Mm-hmm and that are core reasons for the reason why we had gotten married before were, um, for the right reasons and that we were getting back together for the right reasons.

And it was only, um, When we started talking again, that I realized that he, that he told me that he was going to therapy and I was just like, oh, well, I'm, I'm going to therapy also. Wow. And so that was a big thing for, for both of us. And it was a Catholic therapist and that was very helpful for me because I could have somebody kind of from, uh, who viewed.

The sacrament of marriage, the same way that I did kind of giving me instruction and, uh, helping me through that extremely difficult time. And so I, I really would recommend therapy to, to anyone. Um, if you're a Christian find a Christian therapist, you know, if you're Catholic, Catholic, I think that having somebody that's not family that can give an UN bias.

Um, opinion, um, is so helpful because, you know, if I go to my mom a lot of times she'll be like, oh, you're, you're such a good person. Like, compared to me you're so smart. Like, um, I know you'll, you'll pick the right thing. And it's like, well, that's, that's not necessarily what I, I need to hear. Like, I wanna hear some, some good, helpful information.

I need some guidance, some, uh, yeah, I need guidance. And I went to therapy when, when we got divorced, cuz I was just, I had fallen down a whole alcoholic path again and I was just depressed. I felt like I was gonna go insane. My heart was, you know, ripped out of my chest and that, that really helped having a therapist telling me, you know, what, read.

Write this out, evaluate these things, put back into perspective, how you're gonna rebuild your life in these ways. And yeah, I mean, it was just, it's what I needed. And when I went looking for a therapist, I was recommended this one person and he, his normal, I think therapy is not cheap. I will say that, but when I, I called and explained my whole situation, he was just like, wow, I can tell you really need this.

So I'll make you a deal. If you come every week for eight weeks, I'll cut my price in half. And that was amazing. God also, I was like, okay, like the, yeah, this is what I need. And so, yeah, I would definitely recommend getting therapy, uh, help. Yeah. Prayer was important. Also finding or having, um, you know, one friend or family member that you can really just lean on that can accept you completely, no matter how broken you feel.

I, I think that those things are really important, important, great advice. And I've found so many of those things to be helpful as well, man, that, yeah, the divorce I did know about that. And I remember us chatting a little bit about it on, uh, on social media and you've been through so much and I'm just, I want to go back to the Shenandoah who.

Going through that mess in her life. Like what was going on inside of you? Like, if that was me, I would imagine that there was just so much inside of you that was like, see, you couldn't make it work. Like you couldn't do it exactly. Like you repeated a mistake that you swore you wouldn't do. Oh God, take us in your heart.

Take us in your head. What was going on? Well, it was just, first of all, the reason why it was just like, yeah, here I am. Again. I'm not enough. I, I was good. I was, I was even great. I was perfect in all these ways, but just not good enough. Mm-hmm and feeling crushed because of that, thinking that the person who, who thought you were good enough, good enough to, you know, propose good enough to, to marry you then decides no, actually, you know what you weren't, you know, and mm-hmm, , it just crushed me.

I felt ugly. I felt like. All of the hard work. Like what was the point? Why, why, why was I even a, why was I even trying to be a good person? You know, what did it matter? It's not gonna make me happy. I know bad people who are happier than me. I was thinking, you know? Yeah. And I just remember once I got past the initial shock and hurt, although you never get past the hurt, like the hurt.

Um, I mean, even to this day, like even when I look back on some of the pictures, when we were together before that breakup, like it still brings back some of the hurt. Like some of that doesn't ever go away, you can just try to love more each. and, but like you said, like I was just going around and around in my head, like, oh my gosh, I've tried so hard.

I swore I was not gonna become part of that statistic. You know, of mm-hmm how many people get divorced? You know, every, you know, out of how many couples that get married, what is it like 50% get divorced? And I was just like, that's not gonna be me. I'm gonna have all the hard conversations. I'm gonna pray every day.

I was praying for my future spouse since I was nine years old. And I was just like, really God, really like all of those years of prayers and what did it get me? Like, like, I wasn't even good enough for God to listen to. Mm. And yeah, it was just E I was realizing like, when I think back. Just all the different steps that I, I had taken.

So basically when that happened, when, when we did end up splitting, I was so broken, I really did just kind of give up for a little bit there. And that's why I ended up going into therapy was I was having suicidal thoughts and mm-hmm , you know, like I said, I was drinking so much. My kidney was hurting and I just knew I had to do something otherwise, like the part of me knew, like I deserve a good life.

Like I deserve to be loved and I know God loves me. And I don't wanna say that that's not enough, but it's, you know, it's not gonna, it's not gonna give me children, which I always wanted, you know, which is why. I know I'm my daughter is such a blessing now because she represents how much I am loved now.

So I, I will say that, but, um, yeah, it was just the darkest part of my life because it was my, my worst nightmare had come true. Yeah. And I can't imagine the feeling of hopelessness and despair. And like you said, it drove you to the point of considering suicide. And to be honest with you, it makes sense.

Like, it makes sense, given what you went through, given what happened, it makes sense that you got to that point. It makes sense that you fell into alcoholism. It makes sense that you just wanted to give up. Um, but it's amazing. You didn't, and that's just so inspiring because as you probably know, people like us who come from broken homes, like we're statistically more likely to get divorced ourselves.

Yeah. And, and so, like you said, we don't wanna become the statistic, but it is a real dangerous, real fear that all of us have and you live through that, but you didn't stop there, which is so amazing. So take us to that journey as well. You said you guys both went to counseling, uh, started talking again.

What happened after. like I said, I kind of, I was going to therapy or, and I had just finished my eight weeks and I was actually, um, seeing someone else. Um, although for me it wasn't like, it wasn't serious for me at that point. Mm-hmm I was just like, you know what, I'm just gonna do whatever helps me not hurt right now.

I had even gotten a van and I did a whole van conversion and it was my, uh, I was gonna be leaving to go to Colorado. I thought and then I ended up getting sick. I ended up going get, uh, I had to go to the hospital and it was an emergency that they had to remove my left ovary. Cuz I found out I was stage four endometriosis and I was basically gonna go into septic shock if they didn't remove my ovary, which had just exploded.

And um, And so I was in there for about a week and you know, my now husband, he, he ended up, we had actually run into each other once before he knew this place that I would, um, go to. And so he went there and we kind of talked, but I was just like, you know what, I'm going to be leaving soon. And, you know, once I know what I really want, then, you know, maybe we can end up talking more.

But, um, in my mind, like at the time I wasn't really. Thinking like, yeah. Am I really gonna give this guy another shot? You know, after, um, it had sent me into so much hurt and pain that I was still going through. Yeah. And so then, um, I was in the hospital and he came and he visited me in the hospital and he said that he was fasting for me.

He, he, as it turned out, he didn't eat for three days. Um, because he was so worried about me and he was, um, purposefully fasting for me, which meant a lot. And we were talking a little bit just through messaging and I said, you know, I'm gonna go and take this job over in Virginia. And, uh, once I healed up and so I did, I went and we were just, um, talking through messaging back and forth mm-hmm and having all of the.

You know, I wanted all of my, an my questions answered as to why things, you know, uh, didn't work out as to why he had done the things he had done and why he had, you know, hurt me basically the way that he had. And, you know, I, I, we cleared a lot and I was just open about, you know, again, how I wanted to have a strong spiritual life, how I wanted to have, I basically listed out all the things that I wanted in a spouse again.

And if you don't feel that you can meet up to this, then I don't think things are gonna work out. Um, I had already gone through the whole process of having the. A enrollment that you have to have. It's like a, it's not like the full en enrollment process, but it is called a lack of form. And it's where we had, um, gotten legally married and in the Catholic church, if you get legally married, um, and then divorced without getting married in the church, then you, um, have what's called a lack of form.

So I had already finished all of that process as well. And it was just like, uh, that was such a painful process in itself. And, you know, not to, not even to mention, I had to have my mom go with me to the courthouse when I filled out the divorce papers, you know, which was six, six, uh, what was it? Six months after?

No less than that. Gosh, like I'm getting my. You know, when things are painful, you kind of push it out of your head. So my timeline absolutely get cross, but in any case, it was very soon after we got married that then I was going with my mom to get, you know, divorce, um, papers and everything. So, um, yeah, just having to, to go there and, and telling him all the different things that, you know, I had to take upon myself.

And basically I got all of, all of my anger out, like all of my, my pain out on, on the table for him. Mm-hmm and, um, you know, all, all he could do was say how, how sorry he was. And that basically he knew he had gone down and very bad road spiritually as well, just where he, you know, he had been going and having, he had a lot of doubts and, um, it, he had fallen into just being vain and selfish and he.

Went and got counseling. And he just realized that he, um, he wasn't the person he wanted to be. He wasn't the person that he, that he was when we started dating and, you know, to an obvious degree, like even his family over here in Ireland, they all noticed that he was changed. And so, um, it was just one of those things where a person gets kind of, um, off track in life and kind of scared and kind of rebels.

Or sure or rebels in a huge way. And that was what he was going through. And his answers basically long to make a long story short, not going into too much detail, his answers and his proof were good enough for me. And also we were saying novena individually, but we say the same novena, you know, together.

To St. Joseph. And, um, I had also said when Novin to St. Anne and funny enough, like the day that I finished that Novina, this was back when we were still separated that day. He texted me. And so I was just like, whoa, that's kind of weird. And so then, you know, um, just kind of moved forward from there, uh, with his bump, with his showing up where I was going and then asking if he could see me again.

So it, it all happened after that. Novina and then, you know, we prayed Novin together and just, I live by. The prayer and the saying that God makes all things new. Hmm. I would repeat that again and again, and again, mostly about myself, just feeling so broken, like, but God can make all things new and, and knowing that he can make mean new.

And I definitely believe that also for, you know, for other things and relationships, if it's meant to be, you know, if that there can be healing if, if it's wanted by both people. And if it's a healthy love, basically mm-hmm , um, that you both want the, the best for each other and basically help each other go to heaven that you, you both want to.

Have the best life and make the best life for each other, then God can make all things new. Like no relationship is gonna be perfect. But I think that, you know, the other thing that I've taken out of all of this is that communication is just so important. Like if I'm frustrated, you know, I let him know yes.

And, uh, I say what I expect and you know what, I feel that I'm, I'm not getting the help that I need, then he can step up and, you know, if he's, if he's, um, feeling the same way, then he, he can talk to me and we're just very open. And I that's one of the things that, you know, I had said that I wanted, I just needed, I never wanted a fight.

I, and we haven't fought, you know, we've never yelled at each other, you know, which is, it's so important to me in, in our relationship. You know, we, we can talk things out and. I think that, you know, if everybody can just get to that point where even if it's embarrassing, even if it's uncomfortable, if you can just say what's on your mind and heart, knowing that the person you love that person, they love you.

And that that's enough that that will keep you together. As long as you can be honest with each other, then God love you. That's that's the way to go. Beautiful. Wow, incredible. So then you guys got remarried then and you got married in the church at that. Well, we're actually our whole, um, our whole plan was to get married in the church here and then COVID hit uhoh yeah, yeah.

Little, little detour there. Little detour. Yeah. So we, we got married again. Beautiful. Right before we left in December. And then I came over here first. Um, cuz we had bought different tickets over here. Uh, funny enough before we even knew we were going to get married again because his niece, one of his nieces is my goddaughter, so I was gonna come over.

For Christmas regardless to visit her and the family. Yeah. So he, he made, he got his tickets for another time. So we were both gonna end up here at some point together in, in Ireland. Funny enough. But, um, wow. Yeah. So we're like, yeah, we're gonna get married, you know, legally there in California. And then we will fly over and we'll get married in the church there in Ireland and yeah.

Then, uh, COVID happened and every, yeah, everything changed. Crazy times. Okay. No, that, that all makes sense, so well, beautiful. You guys are together again and that's, so it's just such an inspiring story. I admire you. I admire your husband so much to just thank you. Yeah. Fight through all that and to fight for each other and to, yeah.

Just push on. And man, it must have taken so much, um, humility and so much vulnerability and forgiveness, um, to be able to get to where you are today. So I, uh, I admire that so much. Absolutely. Thank you. And it's a work in progress. It's it's daily, you know, wanting to love that person more daily, forgiving that person on a daily basis at times, you know, like, luckily I'm, I'm kind of past that stage, but I had plenty of times that, you know, I just had to.

Go into my heart and mind and be like the only way I'm gonna be able to live without fear, fear of being hurt again, is if I truly forgive and have trust and that trust is going to be, you know, out of faith, but also, you know, proving himself daily. And basically both of us proving our ourself and our love daily.

And it just has to be that way. It has to be every day you wake up, you have to make a decision that this is what you want and that this is what you're working for. And, you know, all of everything will align with that. If that's the, uh, the mentality that you're having. And I know that that's definitely not the mentality that, uh, my parents had.

And yeah, I really think that that's made all the difference. Yeah, you can grow, you can change, you can heal just those things alone. Just understanding that you can do those things is life changing. It's amazing. So you're living proof that it's possible to repair something that is very broken and, and I love it.

I love it. So thank you for sharing your story. Uh, speaking about being a work in progress, if you would touch on a little bit how your life has transformed since you know, years ago to where you are now. And like you said, things aren't perfect, but you are in a different spot. I mean, I'm at the spot now where I would never suffer abuse.

Like I have the strength now to where I can go, you know, I would look for, um, someone to help me heal, be it therapy or a friend. Someone to talk to. Um, but also I have the strength to just step away or get away from whatever type of abuse that had that strength that I didn't have as a kid or a young adult mm-hmm

And I have just a lot more confidence now that I won't make the same mistakes that my, that my parents made. You know, it was like a fear that hung over me that, oh my gosh, I'm gonna do what they did. And like, what if I just end up being unhappy with someone for the rest of my life? Or what if, you know, I end up taking it out on my kids.

Like, I, I don't even think about things in that way anymore. Cause I have confidence now that. Me the way I focus on, on love and just loving, loving my husband, um, loving my daughter the best that I can each day. If I come from, um, from doing things from the aspect of love, then I don't have to worry about all of that because that those other things they were lacking love.

So if, if love is the core of what I'm doing and how I'm doing things then, well, it's like how they say God is love. And if God's in everything, how can it go wrong? Beautiful. Beautiful. And I, I think it's so appropriate that now you guys have a baby girl, who's really the kinda incarnation of your love that you had.

To work you had to fight for, you had to work through. And, uh, I think it's just so beautiful and she's lucky to have you both as parents. Oh, thank you. Yeah, her name's Arwin Emery Arwin Emery. Beautiful. Beautiful. And I just wanna give you a chance now to talk with everyone listening. Um, especially those people listening who come from broken homes, who mm-hmm may maybe they feel broken.

They feel stuck because of the breakdown of their own family, their parents' marriage. Uh, what, what encouragement, what advice would you give to them? Yeah, I, I would say that your, your parents' mistakes don't define you and that God can make all things new and don't be afraid. do not be afraid to make your own mistakes.

I. That that's, you know, a fear that we all have. Like, we don't wanna make any mistakes, but mistakes will be made guarantee. You know, it's just, if the focus is on the right things, which is, um, living a good life and you, you know, that you are worthy of being loved, then you know, if you know you're worth, then other people will know you're worth and you have to make your worth known and just not accept less than you deserve.

And you have to be, maybe some people have to be more vocal with it. And some people maybe have to find ways to remind themselves more often of it, but truly knowing that you are loved and that you deserve to be loved. I think that's one of the biggest things that has helped me as well. And yeah, just your other people's mistakes.

Don't define you. Beautiful. If people wanna connect with you, what's the best way to do that? Yeah, sure. Um, she Lawson S H E N L a w S O N. gmail.com. That puts my personal email. And yeah, if you have any questions, feel free to, to hit me up there. Jen. Thank you so much. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your vulnerability.

Um, it's, you're a brave woman for coming on, like telling your story because so many people, as we discussed would rather keep this stuff quiet. And so thank you for, uh, for doing it in a way that was also, um, respectful of the people involved. Um, I know, you know, it's not always easy to, to do that and sometimes, um, it's a difficult balance to talk about the brokenness in our past.

And so thank you for, for trying to hit that balance. I know it's a difficult thing to do that I sometimes struggle with as well, but thank you for sharing and for, um, just being such a beautiful example of how we don't need to repeat the brokenness that we saw in our families. Absolutely. No, thank you so much for having me.

And I, I hope, you know, even if it helps one person, then yeah, then I'm happy to share.

This is so beautiful. When I was listening to that interview before we published it, it honestly made me tear up. It was just so moving. So beautiful, such a great story. And there's so many lessons in it. One of the lessons that I took away is that even if you stumble, even if you fall, you're never too far gone, you're never out of the fight.

There's always hope to redeem your story, to redeem your life. And like she proves to even redeem your marriage. You just have to be willing to ask for. And be willing to put the work in. And so if that's you right now, if you are struggling in some way, I just want you to know that we're here for you. You are not alone.

We'd love to hear from you. And one way that you can do that one way that you can reach out is by sharing your story. We wanna hear your personal story. And some of the benefits of doing this is that it's actually healing for you on a neurobiological level. It makes your brain healthier to reflect on your story.

And there's been studies that have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed. They're less anxious, they're healthier, they're happier and so on. And if you share your story with someone else, someone who can listen with empathy, that's also healing on a neuro biological level.

And so your story beyond just helping. It can also help someone else. It can give them guidance and give them hope who maybe are struggling. Maybe they come from a similar background that you do in your story, can give them the guidance and hope that they need. And so if you wanna share your story, it's actually really simple to do it first, go to restored ministry.com/story again, restored ministry.com ministry singular slash story on that page, fill out a form quick form, tell a short version of your story, and then we'll turn that story into an anonymous blog article.

And so we would love to hear from you. So share your story with us today. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 42. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been helpful for you in any way, I invite you to subscribe. So you can hear more and be sure to share this podcast episode with someone that you know, who could really use.

Always remember you are not alone. We're to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#041: How to File the FAFSA if Your Parents are Divorced or Separated | Alex Driscoll & Mike Rossman

Statistically, children of divorce are less likely to attend college. Further, they’re less likely to receive financial support from their parents for college. 

To pay for college, most young people apply for government aid by filling out the FAFSA. But if your parents are separated, divorced, or remarried, the process can seem confusing. 

Today, we speak with two experts to offer guidance on:

• How to answer certain FAFSA questions depending on your parents’ marriage

• Myths to watch out for 

• Practical tips that are difficult to find on Google

• A video and infographic that’ll make the process simple for you

Watch FAFSA video

View infographic

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

You've probably heard us say that children of divorce are less likely to go to college to continue their education. Statistically, why is that primarily because they're also less likely to receive financial support from their parents for college in the first place. And why is that? I think one of the reasons is that divorce is very expensive or at least it can be, I know families that have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in attorney fees.

I kid do not. It's. And so young people and, and parents are left figuring out how to pay for college and one obvious way to do so in the United States, at least is to use a government financial aid, getting government grants or loans by filing the, the FSFA the free application for federal student aid.

But if you've never done that, it can seem complex and confusing, especially if your parents are recently separated, divorced, or remarried, that adds a. Of confusion to the process. And so in this episode, we're gonna tackle that problem. We're gonna make the process simple. We'll be answering some of the most important questions for parents and young people from divorce separated or remarried families.

And so whether you're a parent. Who's searching for answers for your child, or maybe you're a young person, a student who's heading off to college. This is gonna help you a lot. What you're gonna get out of this episode is we're gonna talk with two financial aid experts and they give their advice on how to answer certain questions on the application, on the FAFSA, depending on your parents.

Marriage situation. We also touch on some myths that you should watch out for. They give practical tips that are gonna be difficult to find on Google. You really need to talk to someone who knows their stuff in this area. And then at the end, we give a, a video and an infographic that'll make this process, especially if you're someone who's coming from a broken home and.

It maybe happened recently where your parents separated or divorced, it's gonna make the process much simpler for you. And by the end, you're gonna have the knowledge that you need to apply for financial aid. Hopefully get the funding that you, or maybe your child needs so that they are, or you can continue your college career.

And so keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host. Joey Bonelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 41. And today I have the pleasure of talking with Alex and Mike two experts in the field of financial aid.

Alex Driscoll currently works as assistant director of financial aid at Russell Sage college. In Troy, New York on a typical day, she helps first time freshmen and transfer students to better understand the financial aid process and the awards that they're eligible for. Alex graduated from the state university of New York at Albany with a bachelor's of science and political science and a master's in educational administration and policy studies.

She currently lives in Troy New York, where you can typically find her perusing, the farmer's market or kayaking in the Hudson. My other guess is Mike Rossman. Mike works as a financial aid assistant at Russell Sage college in Troy New York. His passion is to help students better understand the college experience and to build life skills that will translate to successful future careers.

My graduate from Sienna college with a bachelor's degree in psychology and from the college of St. Rose with a master's in college student services administration. He lives in New York with his wife, Kelly. And so again, I'm really honored to have these two experts on this process. Join us today to hopefully answer your questions and to make the process simple.

So here we go,

Alex and Mike, thank you so much for coming on the show. Yeah, of course. Happy to. Thanks for having us, but I wanna, I wanna dive right in. So you both are experts when it comes to financial aid. And so there's so many people out there who, who need this guidance. That the first question is really basic.

When someone goes through this financial aid application process, uh, how long does it typically take to actually fill out the whole form? So for new students that are filing for the first time, Joey, um, it usually takes about an hour or so. Uh, for some people it could take a little bit less, some people, it could take a little bit longer.

It really depends how much information they have to put in. If they're using both of their parents. Different parameters there for people that are renewing, um, or doing it the, the second, third, fourth time around, usually more like a half an hour, cuz most of your information already imports in when you start.

Okay. That makes so much sense. So it really depends if you're first year are coming back again. And probably also, if you need to gather information from different people or different sources that could make it a little bit longer in some. Yeah, that's, that's the one thing that really takes a while, especially if you need to get specific tax information for your parents, um, or even tax information for yourself, if you had to file.

Um, some of that can take a little bit of time to request if you don't already have it. Every, every situation is different, but for the most part around an hour for new people in half an hour or so for renewals. Great. I, I do wanna mention it does have a safe key. So if you did get like halfway through and realize that you're missing some paperwork that you need, um, as a safe key so that you can leave the Faxon pick it up at another time when you have your P.

So it doesn't have to be all done in one, in one sitting, basically I feel bad for anyone. Who's not realized that and they filled out the form and almost gotten done and then just closed it out. That is a great feature. Thanks for mentioning that. Mm-hmm so when it comes to the actual FAFSA, uh, what kind of questions are on there?

When it comes to your parents, paint a picture, if you would, in people's minds of what exactly they're gonna be answering. All right. Sure. So, um, it's going to ask for at least one of your parents information, including their, uh, date of birth, possibly their social, uh, first initial, last name it's going to ask for, um, their marital status date.

If they're divorced or married, um, or widow. And it's going to ask for their tax information as well as investment information, um, and other banking information. I see. So definitely something that you wanna do with a parent or at least have them available to answer questions. If you're a student who's trying to fill this out on your own, it would be pretty difficult, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Even if you have your parents' taxes, um, for a student, it can be really confusing to kind of try to decipher that and put that information into the FAFSA. That makes sense. Maybe unless there's some budding account. Accountants out there, accounting majors who, uh, like going through taxes, but I think that's probably not most of us and the tax information too.

Joey is based on two years prior to when you're filling it out, which makes it even more, a little bit more confusing than it originally would be. Um, cuz they're assuming that everyone would've had their taxes done two years before. Um, and some people might not have the current taxes done. So they used two years prior.

Yeah. That is, that is why they switched to the two years prior is because a lot of people didn't have. There one year ago taxe is done. So in this case, it be your 20, 20 taxes. A lot of people don't have those completed yet. Got it. Okay. That's really helpful because you could start the process and then be sitting there and like, well, I need to file my taxes first, which isn't a simple task for a lot of people, right?

Okay, great info. So I, I, I think this is all making sense. I wanna go into some different scenarios for different people who maybe going through this process, that the first is where, uh, parents are separated. So they're not technically divorced, but they're separated. And I was curious, according to the financial aid form, when are parents consider quote unquote separated?

Parents are considered separated. Really? When they, the term terminology they use is living as a married couple when they stop living as a married couple, um, this usually requires them to be living in different places, but sometimes people still live together, even though they're considered separated. Um, also in some states they have specific legal separations, um, which make it a little bit more.

Truthful, I guess, as soon as people decide that they're kind of living separate lives and not acting as a married couple anymore, they're considered separated. Yeah. I, I just wanna jump in and say, um, marital status can definitely be confusing. It's important to know that it's your marital status as of the day you file the FAFSA.

So if your parents. Had divorced in February and you're filing the FAFSA in March, then they would be considered divorced. It is self reported. Uh, sometimes colleges may ask for proof of separation in the form of two different mailing addresses. So they may ask for like a utility bill from each parent to prove that they have different addresses.

If they're separated. Okay. That's really helpful. And I'm glad you brought up that scenario, cuz I think that could be confusing to people who are going through this situation. So in one case you said they could be separated, but living together or separated, not living together. Uh, how should you answer the questions on the form?

Uh, in both of those scenarios where the parents are living together, um, but separated or they're not living together and separated. So if they're living together you're or if they don't live together, sorry, you're gonna wanna. Answer for whichever parent you live with more. Um, if you live with both parents equally, if you spend 50, 50, uh, time with them, you wanna provide information for whoever's provides the most support for you.

Um, usually they consider it, uh, at least 50 or more percent of your support per the year. If they do live together, you'll have to answer for both of your parents. If they're separat. Because you're still in the same household. You can't prove that they're living in two separate places. So they use both parents.

That that is correct. Um, and that is self-reported, but yeah, if your parents are, uh, separated, but they're technically still married and they still live together, you are gonna wanna wanna report both parents' information. Okay. That makes sense. And so Alex, when you say self report, it means basically you choose what to say, is that right?

Yeah, because in a lot of times, um, when parents are separated, they're legally still married. So that. Yeah, they self-report, that they're separated. And like I said, the, the college, um, You're applying to may require more information such as those two separate utility bills. I see. So it depend, so that kinda goes college by college.

Okay. No, that makes a lot of sense. And, uh, Mike, one thing that you said, um, you said when, which parent is supporting you, uh, does that mean financial support? Like who's paying for your food, who's who you're living with most, like you said, if it's 50, 50, Or maybe one more than the other. Um, what does support, I guess exactly mean in that case?

Yeah. I mean, I think it hit it on the head with, with everything you just said there it's, whoever's providing the most financial support for whatever you're doing at that time. So if they're paying for your housing, they're paying for your food, paying for your schooling, depending on where you're going to high school.

If it's a, it's a private school. Anything there, um, any form of financial support whoever's doing the most there. Perfect. Okay. And now turning to a situation where the parents are divorced in a similar vein, uh, at what point are the parents considered actually divorced? Is it, you know, when they file for divorce, is it when the.

Court, you know, signs, the final papers. What does that look like? So, yeah, it is, um, it is when the court signs those final papers. So again, it's, it's pretty rare, but there are some circumstances in which the college may request, um, proof of that divorce and that would be the court send documents with that date.

Okay. That makes sense. So up to that point, even if your parents are going through the divorce process, they're technically still just separated. So you'd resort to the info that we just covered that makes. And then in that, in that situation where your parents are legally divorced, uh, how should you answer the parent questions on the form again, if they don't live together, if they do live together.

So this is actually gonna depend on, um, which year the parents got divorced. Um, so it's different if they were divorced before 2020 in this case, Or 2020 or 2021. But in, in both cases, you only need to, uh, report one parent's income. So, because this is where it gets a little confusing because the taxes go back two years, say your parents were divorced in 2020, in 2019.

They may have filed, um, their taxes, married, filing jointly, or married, filing separately. And they would need to put that as their, uh, filing says in the FAFSA, but they would only need to report one income in this case. And again, that is the parent that you live with, uh, 51% of the time or that you receive financial support from 51% or more.

Okay. So you would basically need their. W2. And for anyone who's not aware, I'm assuming most people are aware what that is, but that's just the piece of paper that shows you what you made the taxes that were withheld for the prior year or any year in the past. So it sounds like the W2 would be one of the most useful things to have in that situation though.

I'm sure the official tax documents or the software they're using would show it separated as well. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. A lot of times, um, just would have tax returns if you have like. 2020 tax or 2019 tax returns. That's also helpful to use a lot of information's listed on that. Okay. And just speaking a little bit more to that situation, I think you made that absolutely clear.

Um, but if your parents somehow are divorced yet living together, which as we were discussing before the interview, that is a rare situation, but it does happen in that situation. Like you said, Alex, it's just whoever, whichever parent you're spending more time together with, or, or what does that look like?

Or I guess in that case you would, it would be. Explain that if you would a little bit more, so again, it would still be 51% of your support. So in this case they live together, but maybe one parent, you know, buys majority of your clothes or buys majority of your food, um, or pays majority of the bills.

That'd be the parent that you receive 51% of your support from, and you'd wanna include that parent's information. That makes sense. And moving to, uh, a situation where maybe one of your parents or both of your parents are remarried. Um, should you answer questions in that situation about your stepparents?

So you only need to answer questions about your stepparents if they're married to whichever parent you're using on the FAFSA. So say you're using your father on the FAFSA and he's been remarried. Um, you only have. Put in information for your stepmother. Um, even if your mother was also remarried, you wouldn't have to do anything on that side, if you're only using your father's information.

Yeah. Just to elaborate on that a little bit. So, um, scenario here is, you know, say you're living with your father and he's remarried to your stepmother. We run into this kind of a lot where the student will say, well, my stepmother doesn't doesn't provide any support. Do I still need to include her tax information?

And the answer is yes, if you live ly their father and he's remarried to a stepmother, their tax filing status is most likely. Either married, filing jointly or married filing separately, and you would need to include both of their taxes. And again, that's a, that's a federal regulation that's really helpful to, to know.

So basically they do need to be legally married though, if they're just living together, uh, like if it's a girlfriend boyfriend's situation, then you wouldn't include that information at that point. Is that correct? That's right. Mm-hmm . Okay. And are there any, uh, specific questions, I guess, on the form that may be confusing in that situation, that would be helpful for people listening right now to know, okay, this particular question, this is how you answer it.

Um, I feel like one of the most important things that again, can be really confusing is just, it is the status as the date they filed the FAFSA. So like I said, I mean, if, if a parent was just married last month and now you're filing the FAFSA, he was married to a stepparent. You now need to include that step parent's information.

I think that's one of the most confusing parts. No, that's Claire. And I'm glad you're bringing that back because it, it definitely, um, gives a, a good, uh, way to distinguish between mother two include it or not. Mm-hmm . And, and it's at the point that you finished the F, so like, if you were to start it in January and then like, forget about it and begin it again in March, but your parent was married in February, then you would go with the info at that point in time when you're finishing, is that.

That's correct. Yep. It's gonna be end of the date that you're submitting the FAFSA. Great. Okay. That, that is clear and going through some other scenarios. What if you live with someone who, who isn't your parent, like maybe you're living with, uh, grandparent or cousins or someone else, how does that work?

So. Unless you're legally adopted by someone else. Um, as long as you can still get in contact with your parents, you still have to report information for your parents. So even if you live with an aunt or an uncle, um, a grandmother, a grandfather. Um, unless they've legally adopted you, you still have to report information only for your parents, right?

There's there's also a question that asks if you are an emancipated minor, or, um, in a legal guardianship as a turn by the court. Um, and that's gonna be kind of state by state because not every state recognizes emancipated minors. So that may be depending on what state you are in. But if you're claiming that you're in a legal guardianship with someone who's not your biological parent, uh, most of the time you do have court paperwork that says that, and you would need to provide that.

To the colleges that you're applying to after you file the FAFSA. Okay. So you need to collect all that and send that in that, that makes sense. And when you say emancipated minor, would you explain what that means for anyone listening? Who isn't clear on that? Yeah. So again, this, this goes state by state because not every state recognizes emancipated minor status, but if you are a teenager and you are, you know, living with a parent and.

Not a safe situation. You can, you can go through the process of becoming an emancipated, minor, meaning basically that, even though you're below the age of 18, you are now essentially in charge of yourself. So your parents no longer take care of you. They're not supporting you. You don't have their health insurance, things like that typically a year out on your own.

Yeah. And, and that does happen. So it's, I'm glad that you, uh, explain that. I think sometimes, uh, yeah, sometimes people might not completely understand. Certain terms. So thanks for like breaking it down and making it simple. Especially for me. I, I don't know if I could have defined what an emancipated minor was.

I appreciate that. Mm-hmm you touched on this Alex, but when we're talking about situations where maybe you're not required to provide information about your parents, would that be one of them? Like when are you not required to provide information about your parents? If you are a dependent student, unfortunately, if, if you're a dependent student, There's gonna be a list of questions on the FAFSA that just deal with your dependency status.

You know, if you're working at a master's degree, if you're married, if you're over 24, you're considered independent. Or if you have children that, that you support, you're considered independent. If you are considered a dependent, you don't mean any of those criteria. And let's just say, you don't communicate with your parents anymore.

You haven't spoken to. Unfortunately for federal purposes, you do still need to provide their information on the FAFSA. And that can definitely be problematic, but that's something that college is just, they, they can't get around. There's, there's not really a work around for that because these are federal regulations.

So unfortunately, in this case, if your parents are still supporting you and you don't have that court paperwork saying that they're not eco guardianship or emancipated minor, You would still need their information. Joey building off of that too. There's there's some outlying kind of scenarios where even when you're dependent, it, it's impossible to, to get parent info.

So if your parents are incarcerated, um, if you've left an abusive home, not able to locate your parents, things like that. There, there is an option on the FAFSA to, to not report parent information, but if that does happen, they can't create an EFC for you, which is an estimated family contribution. . If you provide a FAFSA with no EFC, it's considered an invalid FAFSA and that student would not be eligible for any federal aid.

Oh, I see. Okay. So, okay. So that really is a difficult situation. If you are not able to get the information on your parents and there's probably other situations where parents just like, don't really wanna help out, hopefully that's a rare situation, but, um, is that a similar situation where you're kind of in a tough spot or is there anything that you can do if your parents refuse to give you the information that.

In that situation, um, I'd recommend calling the colleges that you're applying to after you've completed the FAFSA, because you, you can submit the FAFSA without parent information, but again, it's gonna come back as invalid, unless you meet one of those, uh, dependency criteria. And at that point, the college still gets the, uh, FAFSA.

It's just not considered valid and they may reach out to. But I'd also recommend, um, on the students part reaching out to the college and kind of explaining your situation. Colleges tend to kind of handle that differently, but unfortunately, the situation is just, you still speak to your parent, your parent, but they don't wanna provide their information.

You would be considered ineligible for federal aid. So you would need to get that in most cases. Okay. No, that's great info. And so that puts you in a tough position. So any of you listening right now, um, if, if that's your situation, uh, maybe you need to sit down with your parent or maybe, uh, parent, if you're listening right now, if you're a parent listening right now, that may be important to sit down with your, uh, ex spouse and talk with them about how important this is not only for.

Your child, but for both of you in terms of getting, you know, your child through college, and so that I'm sure it could be a difficult situation. If you're, you know, a young person who is facing this, um, it may take a little bit of work, but you may need to go through and explain to your parent, like, this is why this information's so important.

Typically that's better to explain the why first and then ask for what you want, instead of just saying, I need this information. And so certainly it's difficult situation. Um, I'm glad you guys are here to talk about this. I want to turn a little bit, uh, to a, a related topic, but a little bit different than what we just discussed.

And that is what if your parents were to separate or divorce after you've submitted your financial aid application? Again, let talk, we let we talked about for the FAFSA, it's your parents status as of the day that you filed the FAFSA. So if you file the FAFSA in March and in June, your parents, um, separated or divorced, You don't change your FAFSA at that point.

Um, because it's after the date that you've submitted and it would affect it for next year's FAFSA. You finish your freshman year and you're ready to go into your sophomore. You complete your FAFSA. At that point, your parents' status would be separated or divorced. And it's gonna come up with a flag on your FAFSA when the school reports it, that says.

You've changed your parents' Mari marital status. Most of the time, they just kinda leave it at that. It makes the school aware, but most of the time there isn't additional information needed about that. Things happen. Definitely. Okay. That makes sense. So that goes back to that principal when you submit it, whatever information is true at that point, that information applies to that year.

And then in prior years you're gonna adjust it based on what's true in that. okay. And going back to some of the practicals when it comes to the form, cause I think it can be really intimidating. I remember it, it being pretty intimidating, especially the first time I went through it. Uh, when does the FSFA open and close?

What I'm looking for? Dates there, if that's not clear. So it always opens on October 1st of whichever year. Prior to that academic year. Um, so for example, for the 20 21, 20 22 academic year, which is coming up right now, the FSA opened this past October 1st, 2020. And for that specific eight year, you can file, um, until the summer that follows the academic year.

So in this case, um, it would be June 30th, 2022. Okay. So those are the deadlines. That's good to know and good to know when it opens and if someone were not to apply right away. And let's say they wait till, I don't know. The beginning of June to apply. Is there less of a chance that you would get a aid or cuz I think there's this idea out there that maybe there's this fund with money in it that the federal government has and then once the get money's gone, you're done.

So would you clear up that a little bit? So yeah, this is kind of those kind of weird. Myths that I feel like everyone is told. I was definitely told that you have to play the FAF as soon as possible to get the most federal aid. Yeah. That's not a thing. Yeah. A lot of federal aid. I mean, it just goes by that that FC that Mike was talking about earlier that, uh, estimated financial contribution has made family contribution and that's not gonna change no matter when you file ergo.

Your financial aid awards and federal government are not gonna change no matter when you file. Now, what I will say is that some colleges may have scholarship deadlines and those can sometimes pertain to the FSIS. Those are not funds from the federal government, but rather from the individual institutions.

So I always recommend filing as early as you possibly can. To get the most institutional aid, but in terms of federal aid, you can file whenever it's not gonna affect that. Okay. And I bet you're a financial aid advisor at the college you're coming to will love you as well for getting it done. Not at the last minute.

yeah. We, we love to see them done early. Definitely be. And especially if you do, if, you know, if you have kind of one of these nontraditional scenarios and you have questions, It's also good to file as soon as possible, so that you have time to reach out to your, uh, financial aid counselors at your college.

They have time to reach out to you and you can resolve all those things before the semester start. That's definitely important. That's really helpful, cuz I think that's one thing going into this interview, um, that, yeah, maybe I wasn't totally clear on, but you really can and should be relying on your financial aid office.

Like they're there to help you people like you two are in those offices. Whose job it is to assist these students. So it's such a great resource to not be afraid to actually reach out email, call, whatever, go in and see them. And so I think that's one big takeaway for me. Yeah. I mean, college is all about relationships.

Um, Rachel, you as a student build. And that can include financial aid. Yeah, definitely. Don't be afraid of your financial aid counselors. We we're overall nice people I don't know about Mike, but, uh, no, I'm just kidding. for the most part I mean, that, that's one real common misconception, especially since we, we deal with money, um, is, is that people assume that sometimes there's myths that we're out to get people and we're, we're trying to stop people from getting stuff.

But our only job is to make sure that people. Are able to get as much aid as they can to get as much support as they can while they're going through college. Um, so that they can come out and be successful on the other side. Love it. Yeah. So you're there to guide them and it's not like this. It's not like you're giving money out of your own wallet so that they're thinking like, oh, they wanna give as little as ly as possible to, to me, but you're actually trying to, yeah, like you said so well to get them the help that they need so they can get through college and go on and be successful in their career.

Right. Are there any other myths or. Uh, conceptions, like what are some of the most popular ones when it comes to, uh, financial aid and, and this whole process that can be kind of confusing. So really quick, one of the big things that we get a lot of students, I think they think one of two things, either financial aid is just loans, which is not the case or financial aid is not loans.

Financial aid is really, it's a big umbrella. That encompasses, you know, all the scholarships, all of the grants, all of the loans, basically anybody that's not paid out of pocket, that's going towards your education is considered financially. You know, FAFSA refers to, uh, subsidized unsubsidized, student loans, federal loans, and then the federal Pell grant, the FAFSA can affect things with institutional financial aid, like your scholarships, things like that.

But it really just pertains to, to those two loans and the federal Pell grant that I think that's really useful for people to know. Cuz I think you're right. There's a lot of misconception there. Mike, are there any myths that you see kind of in your position where people are coming in and maybe they haven't done their research and they're just confused about some things, any, any myths there?

I mean, I, I wouldn't say any overall myth. I think just people think that it's going to be more confus. It's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy people go into filling out the FAFSA thinking that it's gonna be confusing. Then they go ahead and get confused while actually filling it out. Um, so take it slow.

Um, there's no reason to rush. Um, if you have any questions while you're filling out the FAFSA, you need help. Um, they have a federal student aid information center that you can call, um, with dedicated specialist that can walk you through the different parts of the facet. Tell you what kind of information you should be providing anything like.

so, like I said, no reason to rush, make sure you got all the right information in there and you'll be good to go. Excellent. Alex, anything to add to that, to a parent who's listening or to a young person on advice for getting through the process and, and doing it successfully and working well with their financial aid advisors.

Yeah. I mean, I always say the, the first one is the most difficult. When you're going in your freshman year, you're doing the FAFSA for the first time. That that's the hardest one. And then after that, you know, it, it just gets easier every year that you do it and you kind of get more used to it. You hear a lot of, kind of like horror stories about the FAFSA financially in general, but I always say is.

You commute to work every single day. But the one day that you remember is the one where you were stuck in a traffic jam and you were an hour and a half late. Most of the time, that's not the case of the FAF. So most of the time, you know, you, you get right through it and you have no problems and you have no problems there financially, but you really only hear about those like crazy scenarios that people have.

They're they're not very common. And you'll find that, especially in, in the most recent years, they've really made the FAFs. Pretty understandable. There's little like information tabs on each of the questions. So if you're like, oh, I'm not sure what they're trying to ask here. That'll give you more information right on there.

Um, there's a lot of videos out there. People put in the FAFSA, you know, tips, helpful, things like that. Um, and again, don't be afraid of your financial aid office. We're here to help. And if you haven't received a financial aid offer letter, it's probably because the institution hasn't received your FAFSA.

So definitely check in with them. we'd love to communicate, uh, with students even before they arrive at our college. Great. And, uh, that no, that's really helpful. And it sounds like one of the biggest things is just getting started. Just start the process. And if you mm-hmm, hit a roadblock along the way. Uh, save it, figure out the answer, go back, get it going.

But I think this can, it can be, especially for parents who are busier, maybe they're going through a lot, uh, with a divorce or something like that. Students who have a lot going on in their lives. Uh, it may be kind of intimidating where it's like this huge thing that I have to get done. But if you just take it one piece at a time, that's what I hear you both saying, take it one piece at a time, do what you can and then, you know, aim to get it done.

And if you need help, ask for help. Mm-hmm yeah, yeah. Never be afraid to ask questions. You wanna make sure that everything is on there. So you're getting as much aid as possible. So reach out, use your resources, um, do whatever you can to, to make sure you're putting all the right information on. There is also just a quick, you know, note here.

There's also a FAFSA. So, if you don't have access to a laptop or a computer, for whatever reason, you can complete the FAFSA. Right. On an app, it was created a few years ago. I've gone through it and it's, it's pretty, pretty easy to use. So if you have a smartphone, that's another option for you. That's a great tip.

I did not know that. And. Along those lines. Are there any other resources or, or tips that you guys would, would leave with everyone listening? I mean, there's, if you go on just say YouTube or anything like that, they also have FAFSA walkthroughs where you can take a look, see what kind of information is going to be asked for before you even start.

If that's something that interests you, um, it kind of walks through step by, step on what all the questions are. So you know what information you're gonna need before you start? Yeah. A, a lot of college. And even some high schools have like FAFSA events where they'll have like computer labs open and you can sign up and you can actually do the event or do the FAFSA with someone.

I know the college at Mike and I work out, we're doing a big FAFSA event coming up here soon. So if anyone hasn't completed it, um, and they're accepted at our college, they can come to that and we walk 'em through the whole process. So that's, that's a pretty common thing. All the colleges that I've worked at have those kind of days.

So if you're, you know, really struggling, I'd say to check into one of those inquire about whether or not the colleges you've applied to have that option. You guys are great. Thank you so much for, uh, for all of your wisdom, all the practical bits of advice. I know this is gonna help, uh, a lot of people who maybe feel stuck or they feel kinda confused about this whole process.

So thank you both for, for being here, uh, for, for giving us your time and your expertise. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for having. Yeah, we, we really appreciate your time and letting us come on and talk

in closing out the show. We have a few resources for you guys. So one, we have a video for you. It walks you through the financial aid application process showing you each step in the process. And you can even put this up on your screen while you're filling out the. Application, it can help guide you through each section.

So we have a link to that video in the show notes, but like Mike said, you can really just search on YouTube, FFA walkthrough, video, financial aid, walkthrough video, and you'll be able to find something similar. We also have a really helpful infographic for you that helps you determine whose parents info.

You need to be adding to the financial aid application depending on your situation. So really well designed easy to understand infographic. So that's also linked in the show notes. And then lastly, If you wanna avoid debt altogether, which is honestly the best thing that you can do. And I understand that for some people, it feels like it's impossible.

If you wanna avoid that altogether and figure out some creative ways to cash flow your way through college, meaning you're not taking out debt, you're paying cash gradually as you go through college, check out the book debt free degree by Anthony O'Neil. The, the subtitle of that book is the step by step guide to getting your kid through college.

Without student loans. And we'll add a link to that in the show notes, Anthony O'Neal is really awesome. Speaker writer, podcast host, and he gives really practical ideas on how you can get through college without taking out a ton of debt. It's a huge problem in our world today, especially in the United States where we take out tons and tons of debt to go through college.

And then in the end we gotta pay it all back and it takes years and years and years, and it really hurts our journey. To financial freedom. And so Anthony Neil has a lot of great content, make sure to check him out and in the future, we're gonna be producing more content on this topic, like creating a, a step by step blog article that will give you, you know, the main points that we covered in this episode and help you go through all those.

So make sure to join our email list, if you wanna stay tuned for that. And you can do that by going to the show notes page on that page, there's a form you can fill out and just send your name, your email, and then you can stay in touch with. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 41.

Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular. Dot com slash four one also quick shout out to Erin Hasso for her research and her help in producing this episode. Erin, thank you so much for the research you did the content you put together and making this interview happen really, really helpful. You're awesome.

Thank you, Erin. And thank you for listening. If this has been useful, I invite you to subscribe and to share the podcast with someone, you know, who could use it. Always, remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#040: 9 Ways to Pay for Counseling

You want to go to counseling, but a massive barrier stands in the way: The price. 

Therapy is not cheap. So, how are you going to pay for it? We tackle that question and more in this episode:

• 9 practical tips on how to pay for counseling

• How much does counseling actually cost?

• The info and next steps you need to pay for counseling, so you can heal and feel whole again

Find a counselor

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• #012: Counseling: How It Works and Why It Helps | Dr. Julia Sadusky, PsyD

• How much does mental health care cost? Part 2: Finding Affordable Psychotherapy

• How Much Does Therapy Cost and How Do You Pay For It?

• Seven Ways to Find Mental Health Financial Assistance

• STUDY: Americans Just Can’t Afford Mental Health Treatment

• World Population Prospects 2019, Volume I: Comprehensive Tables

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As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

So you are someone, you know, are thinking about going to counseling, but one huge barrier that you're facing is the price therapy is not cheap. So how the heck are you going to pay for it and to make things where maybe you're in a tough situation right now, maybe you're out of work or maybe you're just struggling to get by.

Maybe you're a student that doesn't really have an income. How do you deal with this? The first thing to know is you're not alone. The price of therapy, the price of counseling is a huge barrier for so many people. One article said this that said for the one in five us adults with a mental illness, about half of them go without treatment deterred by out of pocket costs.

And other obstacles such as finding an in network. Provider. So using some really basic math it's estimate, there are 331 million Americans at this recording. Now I understand that it's not just including adults, it's taking into account kids, but let's just keep the math simple and let's say. 330 million Americans.

The article I just shared said that 20% of them let's say has a mental illness. So it's roughly 66 million Americans. Then it says that half of that population, which is 33 million Americans with a mental illness. Are not getting the help that they need because of the obstacle of paying for counseling.

So again, that's over 30 million Americans estimated that aren't going to counseling, even though they have a mental illness because they can't pay for it. They don't know how to pay for it. Maybe they can, but they just don't know how. To go about it. And again, those numbers just include people who technically have a mental illness that doesn't include the huge amount of people.

Huge number of people who don't have a mental illness, but still want or need the benefits that counseling, uh, Offers, perhaps because they want to heal from some past trauma in their life, such as the trauma of, you know, coming from a broken home, or maybe they went through some abuse in their life, or maybe they just wanna deal with some other pain or problems in their lives that isn't technically classified as mental illness.

So that number of 33 million goes up a ton. And then when we look globally, of course, that number is astronomically higher. So this is a. Problem, whatever your situation, whatever your reason for going to counseling. If the price of counseling is preventing you from going to counseling, we hear you. And this episode is especially for you.

It's gonna help you a lot where you're gonna get out of it. We're gonna talk a little bit about how much does counseling actually cost. We'll give you nine common sense tips on how to pay for counseling. And by the end, you're gonna have the information that you need. To make a decision on how to pay for counseling and the next steps that you need to take in order to get counseling.

So you can begin or continue the healing process. So lots of good stuff ahead. Keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' force or separation. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 40. Again. I mentioned we're gonna give. Tips on how to pay for counseling. Before I dive into that, I just wanna let you know that we are now accepting questions for the show.

Some of you have already submitted questions. Thank you so much for doing that. But if you wanna submit your question, uh, we'll answer those on the show by either me or by my guess. And some of the benefits you can really ask anything that you want, a anything related to growth or healing or coping in healthy ways instead of unhealthy ways, anything related to.

The trauma of the breakdown of your family, maybe you're in a situation where you feel stuck or you're unsure how to handle the pain or the problems from your parents' breakup, or maybe you're unsure how to go about healing. We can help you there. Maybe, you know, someone who's going through all this, you love them, you lead them and you wanna give them some help, but you're not sure how to go about it.

We can help you there too. So, whatever your question we're gonna. Specific and practical answers right here on the show. If you wanna submit your question, it's really simple. Just go to restored ministry.com/ask Joey again, that's restored ministry ministers to singular.com/ask Joey, you're just gonna fill out the form with your question, and then when you submit it as we're able.

Will answer your question on the show. It's that simple. So go to restored ministry.com/ask Joey.

All right. The first thing you need to know before we get into the nine tips, when it comes to paying for counseling is that therapy is not forever. Typically this is a temporary thing that you go through for some season. In your life. So don't approach it, thinking that, okay, once I commit to it, I'm gonna be going to therapy for the rest of my life.

You might need to go back at some point and there's nothing wrong with that. That's fine. But it is really a temporary thing. And Dr. Julia Sadusky who we had on in episode 12, she said that typically takes four. Six sessions to start seeing an impact to start feeling better. If you're going there for maybe some, you know, messy emotions that you're dealing with.

So just four to six sessions, that's typically, you know, if you go once a week, that's a month to two months. So it's really this temporary investment in yourself in your mental health and feeling healthy and feeling. Whole again. And so that's how we really need to look at it. When you look at it as an investment, that's going to pay off, we're gonna get a return on our investment in the long run.

And if you just think in terms of your career, just to take one simple example, if you feel broken. If you're depressed, if you're anxious, if you're having a hard time focusing, because a lot of the pain and the problems in your life, it will obviously affect your work. You won't be as effective at your job.

You're gonna struggle. Maybe even to get a job in the first place, you're gonna struggle to, to move up, to learn new skills, to make more money. The list goes on, you get the idea, but let's say you were to invest some money sometime some effort, because it's not an easy thing to go through healing. If you were to do.

You could be in a much better spot in just three months and six months in a year to the point where you are able to focus better, you don't feel depressed, you don't feel anxious, or maybe you have the tools to better handle. When you do feel anxious. When you do feel depressed, you're gonna be much more effective at your job.

And then hopefully you can move up. You can make some more money, you can be more productive and your life overall, you're gonna be in a much better spot as well. So. Take the approach when it comes to therapy that you're investing in your future self, you're putting money into yourself, so to speak so that similar to an education in the future, you're gonna be able to do better.

You're gonna live a better life. You're gonna make more money. You're gonna do better at your job. You're gonna have more successful relationships. And on and on and on. And that's another example we could look to your relationships, right? Your friendships, your family situation, even your physical health across the board.

Like you could end up living longer. If you end up dealing with this pain, these problems that you're dealing with in your life by getting some help from a professional. And so, again, look at counseling as an investment. You're not just burning money, you're not throwing it down the drain for no reason.

You're gonna get something in return. If you find a good counselor and you put in the work and on the opposite end of that too, I, I kind of hate to mention this, but we need to face this truth that these issues that we're dealing with today, Could get more serious. In fact, they likely will get more serious if we don't get help and they might be even more expensive to treat in the future in the long run, you know, you could take a physical example, right?

Let's say I were to hurt my leg in some way. And instead of going to the doctor, instead of getting a surgery or healing it through therapy of some kind, let's say, I just say, ah, I'll be fine. I'll be fine. And it goes on for years and years and years. And let's say I'm I'm okay. Like I'm getting by. But then in the future it gets worse and it gets worse and it gets worse to the point where now I'm having major leg issues and I need a serious surgery to fix those issues.

That's gonna cost way more money. The recovery's gonna take way more time. You get the idea. We could look at a marriage too. So let's say you're married or you wanna be married one day. And if let's say in that marriage, you're having a lot of issues. You're having a lot of problems, but you don't really want to spend the money to go to marriage counsel.

It could be. I hate to say this, cuz it's such a scary thing that I fear a lot too it's could be that you end up getting divorced because you just never deal with your problems in your marriage. And a divorce is certainly much more expensive than what you'd spend on marriage counseling. I I've known couples to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on attorney fees.

It is insane. It's such a lucrative. Business for attorneys, for other people who are monetizing on families getting divorced. It it's insane. So. It's better. It's less expensive to treat the problems early on. It's easier to treat them early on than it is to let them get more serious in the long run. So again, it's not just an investment, but it's actually in a way insurance.

It's a way to help you to save money in the long run as well. So, That aside, how do you pay for it? The, the first tip is really obvious. Get your insurance to pay for it. And this is of course, assuming that you actually have insurance, maybe you're on your parents' insurance. How do you go about though figuring if your insurance will pay for it?

Uh, the easiest thing that you can do is just find your insurance companies phone number on Google. If you don't have it, just Google. The name of your insurance company and give them a call. This call's probably gonna take 10 to 15 minutes. You're probably gonna sit on the phone a little bit. When you call them, might take a little bit to, to get to the right location.

But once you talk to someone, you're gonna want to ask them a few questions and I suggest grabbing some paper, grab a pen, or just open up the notes app on your phone to write some of these questions down. If you need to pause this and come back to it, go ahead and do that. So. There's just a few questions that you want to ask the person from the insurance company.

You can just ask them what mental health benefits do I have with my insurance policy. So what mental health benefits do I have? It's the first question. And then you could ask, okay. Let's say where to go to counseling. What would I pay out of pocket? They might not be able to give you an exact amount, but they could probably give you some sort of range based on your insurance policy so they can give you a good idea.

Okay. Maybe you're gonna pay $20 outta pocket or $50 outta pocket. If you were to go to counseling. Next question you can ask is how many sessions per year? Would they cover there might be a limit there. So make sure you ask them to clarify that for you. You could also ask, do you cover counselors who are out of network where the counselor that you would see is not one of the counselors that they would recommend?

It's not one of the counselors that's within. Their network, but they might be able to pay for it. So you wanna talk to them about that and that's gonna really depend on your insurance plan as well. Another question, do you offer reimbursements? Like maybe they can't cover the costs initially where the counseling practice would submit the bill to the insurance company, but if you were to pay for it out of pocket, they could give you a reimbursement later.

On, and you would need to, you know, keep track of all the bills and everything like that, but it doesn't take too much work. You would submit them to the insurance company. They would be able to, you know, give you some money back, right. You would check or put some money into your account. So that's a good question to ask too, but there might be some limit on how much you can be reimbursed per year.

So that's another thing that you wanna ask as well. So ask about that. And then lastly, I would probably ask, is there a diagnosis that is required? What that basically means a diagnosis is just some document, right? From the counselor saying that you have a condition that needs to be treated, that's it?

And that might sound kind of scary, right? Like, are you gonna be labeled as a freak? Are people gonna find this out? Really? It's just a procedure that the insurance company needs the counselor to go through in order to cover the cost in order for them. To cover the cost. And if you are concerned, maybe about the possibility of it affecting you in the future, you can ask your counselor about that.

You can ask the practice about that and say, who would have access to this information potentially in the future. Tell them about your concerns and, and just ask them, you know, who would see this information in the future. If I do get some sort of diagnosis saying. You know, I deal with a needing disorder or I deal with depression, whatever, whatever situation you're dealing with.

Now, keep in mind, at least in the us. And a lot of other countries have very similar laws. HIPAA it's basically the privacy laws around medical records. They can't just. Give them to anyone like you're, you're very protected in this way. And they, we take it in the states like very, very seriously, like people have been fined.

I don't know if people have gone to jail or not, but people have been fined lots and lots of money for leaking sensitive, um, medical records for people that wasn't an authorized sharing of, of that medical record. And so basical. You're really protective. There's really only one situation that, that I'm aware of where maybe a judge could mandate that the counselor would have to release certain documents to them or come and testify in court.

And so if that's a serious concern for you, you could talk to the counselor and say, you know, when exactly would this happen, what would it look like? But for most people it's really not a big issue. It's really something not to be concerned with. But if you are. Talk to the counselor about it. And if you know, a lawyer or something like that, and you're comfortable talking with them, you could ask them as well.

But like I said, for most people, this isn't a real issue. And again, if you are really concerned, talk to someone who has more expertise, I don't pretend to be a lawyer. I'm not a lawyer. And so, uh, talk to someone who knows a law who can guide you in that situation. But from my point of view, just so you know, let's say someone were to find out about this.

Some. People everywhere struggle with a lot of problems, like a lot of pain, a lot of problems in their lives. And so my take is if you are getting help for some issue in your life that does not make you weak. That actually makes you strong. Like, I look up to you for going and getting help. It shows me your strength.

It shows me that you're not defined by your problems, but you're working through them. And so if you have questions about that, make sure to, to ask your counselor, they can clarify a lot of that. So again, just to go through those questions, if you're writing them down, ask them what mental health benefits do I have.

If I went to counseling, what would I pay out of pocket? How many sessions per year, would you cover, do you cover counselors that are out of network? Do you offer reimbursements? If they don't, you know, pay for it upfront, if they don't cover it and then is a diagnosis required? Those are just some good questions you can ask and make sure that you're asking them to a point where you can understand what they're telling you, because insurance is super confusing.

So make sure that if the person you're talking to is giving you these really weird answers that you don't understand, don't say, oh, okay. Got it. Don't pretend. Just say, I'm sorry. I don't understand what you're saying. Is there another way that you can explain that? Or, you know, maybe the person. Doesn't really know what they're talking about has to be transferred to someone else and, and they can do that for you.

That's not something that you should feel embarrassed asking about, make sure that they're giving you the help that you need. And they're being clear with your answers until you understand it. Keep asking until you understand it. Talk to someone else. If you have to now one challenge that's come up.

We've talked to people about this. Let's say you're on your parents' insurance and you wanna go to counseling. You know, you need help, but you don't want your parents to know. That you're going to counseling because maybe you just don't wanna have that conversation with them, perhaps a lot of the pain and the problems that you're dealing with stems from what's happened in your family.

You might really not want to have that conversation with them yet talking about, Hey, this is what I'm going through. I need help. That's real struggle. We totally get it. So a few options there. When you're on the phone with the insurance company, you can ask them, you know, what sort of privacy rights do I have since I am on my parents' insurance?

Like, are they gonna get a letter in the mail saying. Oh, you know, your son, your daughter is going to counseling. They're being treated for this. You can ask them what exactly, what information would my parents see? They can give you some answers in that again, ask until you understand, um, another option, which this is harder.

Is, you can have a honest conversation with one or both of your parents. You could say, Hey mom, Hey dad, I'm just going through a hard time right now. I'm struggling with some stuff. I don't really wanna talk about it, but I do wanna get some help. And so I'm looking around for a counselor. I'm going to try to figure out, you know, what the insurance will pay for.

Just wanna let you know, cuz I know you'll be made aware of it. Let's say the insurance company would tell you that they will notify your parents in some way, or maybe your parents will see it on their bill. You can keep it generic. You can keep it simple, but you can just let your parents know. So there's not this big dramatic issue that comes up.

If you can't face your parents, talk to 'em face to face on the phone, then. Maybe just send them a letter, just let them know. And, and that's all you would really need to do, because if you're on their insurance, you have the right to go through with that. And, uh, and there's nothing to be ashamed of. Now, if that's totally not an option, let's say the insurance company says, well, your parents are going to know that you're going to counseling.

You really don't want them to know. Then you're might need to use one of the other options that we're gonna. In this episode, tip number two is ask your employer about employee assistance program. So if you have a job it's possible that your employer might pay for counseling. Even if your insurance doesn't cover it, or maybe you don't even have insurance.

So what I suggest here. Is go and talk to your HR department. You can send them an email. You can give them a call and you can just ask them, Hey, do we cover counseling? I'm just curious. I was thinking about going to counseling. You really can keep it generic. You don't need to give them a lot of info there.

You can just ask the question and see what they say. And again, HR people, they have a lot of confidentiality. Safeguards in place. So they're not just gonna walk around your office or tell your boss or other leaders in the organization that you're asking about counseling, that they have to keep that stuff quiet.

And so, uh, rest assured there that if you were to ask them, it's not unusual and they're supposed to keep that quiet tip number three, use college campus counseling. Or maybe some community counseling center. So when I was in college, I did this, I used my college counseling center, uh, just a bunch of trained counselors that were available to us students just to be clear, this is not to be confused with academic counselors or advisors.

These were, uh, trained therapists who were able to, you know, help us with the issues that we were dealing with and the cost for me, I remember it was just $10 a session and I didn't have much money at the time at all. And so I went every other week. And it was really helpful. I did that for a year and a half, so I definitely put some money into it, of the little money that I had at the time, but it, it was certainly worth it.

And the challenge there, of course, if you were to go to your campus counseling center, is, are they any good? You know, are they gonna give you good advice? Are they gonna give you moral advice? Let's say you have a faith background. You wanna make sure, you know, are they gonna say things that maybe doesn't align with what I believe.

That can be super challenging. I'm gonna talk about that a little bit more at the end of this episode, but it's just good to be aware that maybe you're gonna have to try it out and see how it goes. And sometimes in those counseling centers on campuses, just know that you might have a newly certified counselor.

Or maybe it's a student who's working to get their certification, they're working to get their hours. So again, it might be worth a try. You might have to just test this out, run it as like an experiment to just see how it goes. And when you're interviewing the counselor at the beginning, cuz it really is an interview, uh, from you to them.

You're seeing if they're the right person to help you, you can ask them a ton of questions and just see. If that's gonna be an issue. If you come from a faith background, maybe they don't, is that gonna be a problem at all? And you can just be totally upfront with them and they should be able to give you some straight answers.

By the way, if you're not a student at a college, you still might be able to go on campus to get counseling. So look into that. If you're near a university, you can, uh, give the counseling center a call and just see if they offer. Anything for the community at large. And if they don't, or you're not near a university, a community counseling center in your area might be a more affordable option.

And so just get on Google and search community counseling center. Now this is not something that I'd recommend as like the top option, but if you're in a desperate spot, if you're in a tough spot with money, And you need some help. Now let's say you're dealing with some serious condition or even your symptoms are just really hard to deal with right now.

Do it, just get the help that you need right now. And maybe the long run that counselor, that practice that you're going to isn't the best fit, but it's better if you really need it to get the help now than to just wait longer and longer and longer to try to find the perfect counselor that you might never.

And, you know, in that practice or another practice, perhaps it's possible that group therapy could be a good option for you. Now, group therapy might sound kind of scary, but it could be a much more affordable option for you. In some cases you could end up paying half as much as you would. If you were to work one to one with a counselor, tip number four.

Find pro bono counseling. So pro bono is just a fancy word, meaning that a counselor would do it for free. So counselors in certain situations will offer free counseling to people who really need it, meaning they would look at your financial situation. You'd probably have to give them certain information about your financial situation.

And they would say, okay, I'm willing to do this much free counseling with you. So that could be an option. Maybe there's a practice, you know of that. You wanna try, you could ask them that, or you can give. Campus, or you can ask that community counseling center and see if they would do pro bono counseling.

Uh, you also, maybe there's a counselor you're interested in. Maybe they could refer you to someone who they know who does some pro bono work as well. Tip number five, pay out of pocket. So let's say your insurance doesn't cover it, or you don't have insurance. You could always pay out of pocket if you're making enough money to do that.

But a huge barrier here that we've seen is that you might not feel like it's worth. Like, is this gonna actually work? Is this a good use of my money? We totally get that. And the truth is you're gonna get out of counseling. What you put into it. If you put in the effort, if you find a good counselor, you're gonna get something out of it, but it's really important that you put in the work.

And it's also important that you actually put some skin in the game that it costs you something, because the truth is that you're gonna work harder and you're gonna value your therapy much more. If it actually costs you something. If it's not just a handout, something you get for free, you're gonna be more motivated and you're probably gonna end up completing counseling.

Quicker than if maybe mom or dad were paying for it or someone else is paying for it. And again, there's nothing wrong with going to counseling for free. If you, you have that need in your life right now, nothing wrong with that, but it really does change things. When you take money, you're hard earned money out of your pocket and you're paying it down again.

This is an investment we're not just throwing money down the drain. Um, but it's really helpful when we're putting money. Into it, knowing that we're gonna get something out of it, we're gonna just value it that much more. And I remember Dave Ramsey telling a story how I believe they would pay for their team members to go to counseling with their spouse if they needed it.

But, uh, if I'm remembering the story, right, they didn't really see results right away, but then eventually they started not paying for it a hundred percent. Maybe they're putting 50% into it. And at that point they started seeing much more results than before, because. Their team members started to realize, man, if I don't get some of this together, if I don't start working on my issues, start solving some of these problems with my spouse.

I'm gonna be putting out a lot of money. And so, uh, it motivated them to change it, motivated them to really work on their growth. And that is what can happen with you too, if you're paying out of pocket. So there's a lot of value in paying out of pocket. And there's a few things you can do again, if you can't.

Overall, and we're gonna get into some of those right now. Tip number six, ask the counselor if they have a sliding scale fee. So a sliding scale fee is basically where they would reduce their regular fee by some percentage to help you out. How much is counseling though? Regularly? It could range anywhere from $75 to $150, or maybe if you're seeing a specialist.

Or you're in an expensive city like New York or San Francisco that can go up to 200 or $300. And that's for typically a 45 minute session. Now you might be thinking why in the world? Is it so expensive? A few reasons. One therapists obviously go through a lot of training. Like if you get your PhD going through all that schooling takes a ton of time, a ton of effort and it isn't cheap.

So they obviously go through a lot of training. They deserve to be paid for all that, but also they need to make a living. Like they just like any other job, they need to make money. And if they're running their own practice, there's a ton of other expenses that they need to manage in addition to just doing their counseling.

So they'll need insurance, they'll need to pay any people that work for them, just like any other business. And so there's different reasons why. It can be so expensive, but like I mentioned, for people who need it, they will be able to work with you in most cases. Not always, but in a lot of cases, they'll be able to work for you on that sliding scale free.

Now they can't usually give it away for free, but maybe they could reduce it from $150 to a hundred dollars or to $75. So you may be able to get some sort of a deal like that. And basically what you can do here to figure out how much you can pay. Just do a quick calculation, try to look at your budget.

If you have one or just estimate how much you can pay per month for counseling. So let's say that's $200 per month that you can afford to do counseling. And then from there, what you wanna do is divide that by how many sessions you would have in a month. So if you go once a week, that would be of course, $50 per session.

Or if you were to go every other week, let's say that's, you know, a hundred dollars. A session. And then when you talk to the practice, when you go in to see the counselor, maybe you do a free phone consultation. You can ask them about their sliding scale fee and you can negotiate with them a little bit.

Now negotiation can be scary, but understand here that you're looking for a win. Win situation where you need the help and you're willing to pay some money to get the help they're trained. They can give you the help that you need and they need to make money. And so it really is a win-win situation. So don't be afraid to ask and if they come back and they say, no, we can't do it.

That's totally fine. Maybe you go elsewhere. Maybe you figure out a way to pay. By the way when you're asking a question like that for a sliding scale fear, typically when you're just going to counseling for the first time you fill out all these forms, they call them intake forms. Typically, they're gonna ask you some questions about your financial situation and just understand that you are not obliged to tell them everything about your financial situation.

You can decline telling them certain things. You can tell them. Now I'm not comfortable sharing that information. Or, you know, if you, if they're asking on a form how much you make, you can just say. Not applicable or just put in zeros in the field instead of giving them that information, it's totally your call.

If you're willing to share that, that's fine. They may require more of that information if you're asking for a discount than if not, but, uh, you really don't have to give it to them. As far as I know in my experience of doing counseling for years, you don't have to give that information to them. Tip number seven, adjusts appointment frequency.

So the less that you go, the less expensive it obviously. Well be now, typically counselors wanna see you every week or maybe every other week. So if you are going every week, if you were to adjust it to every other week, then it obviously becomes less expensive per month. If you go to every three weeks, that could be good too.

Maybe once a month, usually less frequency isn't advised. But it is a possibility. It, it, depending on your situation, you can talk to your counselor and see if it would be a good idea. If you need more help, more support, obviously you don't wanna be waiting that long, but maybe you can get by doing every other week and maybe having some friends or an online support group or something that you're checking in with more frequently to kind of fill that void while you're waiting to go back to your counseling session.

Another option here too. Aside from going less frequency is actually doing an intensive. So an intensive is where you do counseling for a week or, or two weeks. And in the end it could not always, it could end up being actually cheaper to do that. You would need to save up for it. It would be a big amount of money to pay all at once.

Or maybe you can figure out some other way. Pay for it. But in episode 37, we had Margaret que on and we talked about, uh, her therapy a little bit and she does it intensive. So basically you would go to her, uh, office to her town. You'd stay there for, I think it's a week. I think sometimes she does two weeks.

And she, you know, would treat you, you would work with her for the whole week and, uh, you would pay, you know, a larger amount in that case. Now let's say, I don't know what she charges offhand, but let's say it was like $2,000. Now that's a lot of money to pay all at once. But let's say you were to do maybe 40 hours of counseling over that week or two weeks.

That would be about $50 an. Now again, I don't know what it actually would be in reality, but if that were the case, then it could be substantially cheaper to do that than to go, you know, to a counseling practice where they're charging you a hundred dollars an hour going every other week. So you can just talk to your counselor.

You can take a look at some of the options if they have intensivess. If you wanna do that, if you wanna go a little bit less frequently, you can just talk to your counselor and see, and just make sure that they know that you would wanna do that in order to save money and just see what they say. Tip number eight, get on a payment plan.

I'm not a huge fan of debt. I don't think it's wise to go into debt in most situations, but getting on a payment plan might be smart if you're in a tough financial situation. And typically if you do this with a counselor, there wouldn't be any interest involved. And so the, the risk is really not there that there would be with another type of loan.

Basically, what you'd do in this case is you would pay your counseling bill off slowly. Maybe you'd pay $50 or a hundred dollars a month. One counselor I worked with in the past did this for me. So I would go to counseling. I think typically it was like twice a month. And so he would add up the time to my bill.

And then let's say, I think I did it for about six months. In that case, I would pay a certain amount. Per month, let's say it was a hundred dollars until the entire bill was taken care of. And so that can be a good thing you can do where you're getting the help that you need, but you're paying it a little bit more slowly.

And so you need to ask your counselor about it. Some counseling practices won't be willing to do that, but some will. And in certain situations they may have never tried that before. This might be something new for them. So you might need to sell it a little bit, but it could be a good thing. It could be an attractive thing, both for them.

And for. Tip number nine, asks someone to cover the costs for you. This is super humbling. Some of you are immediately opposed to this idea. You're so turned off by it because you're just so independent. And I get that I'm that way too. But if there's no other way that you can pay for counseling and you really need the help, don't be afraid to ask someone to help you out because you know, you can't afford it.

So you can just ask them and say, Hey, you know, I'm in this tough situation right now. I can't afford counseling, but I really need it. Is there any way that you can help me out and give them of course the freedom to say, no, they do not have to do this. Of course, if they do want to help you, one really important piece to this is make sure that it's clear whether you are paying back that loan.

Let's say it's a loan. Or if they're just giving it to you as a gift, it's gonna save so much time, so much frustration, so much trouble by making sure that you talk about that. And maybe even putting it into writing, even if it's just an email or text message that you save, it's gonna help so much to put that into writing, to get clear in that first so that, you know, you're not ending up in this weird situation where.

Thought someone was giving you a gift, but in the end it was actually just a loan. So make sure to get clear on that and don't expect someone to pay a hundred percent for your counseling. Like I mentioned before, it's usually better if you're paying for some of it, because again, it needs to cost you a little bit in order for you to really benefit from and to be motivated.

To go through with and take it seriously and make sure to take that money seriously, if they're gifting it to you, because that's nothing that should be taken lightly. They're likely sacrificing a lot in order to give that to you. And so we need to make sure that we're honoring them by putting in the hard work and really working to heal.

So that's it. Those are the nine tips I'm gonna run through them quickly. Again, the first one is get insurance to pay. Second, ask your employer about employee assistance programs. Third use college campus counseling, or maybe an affordable community counseling center. Fourth find pro bono counseling, someone who will do it for free because your situation five pay out of pocket six, ask the counselor.

If they have a sliding scale fee, seven adjust appointment frequency eight, get on a payment plan and nine ask someone to cover the cost for. Something that I would love to do in the future that we can't do right now. But we'd love to do in the future is offer grants to pay partially for counseling, for people who qualify for it, who need our help.

Again, we're not there yet. We don't have the funding to do that at this point, but join our email list@restoredministry.com to stay tuned for things like that. Again, it's something that I'd like to do at some point in the future. Um, if we can, I, if we get the funding to do something like. So we'd love to hear from you guys too.

What, what creative ways have you used to pay for counseling? And, and did we miss anything? Let us know, email us@contactrestoredministry.com or you could just fill out the form on the website again, contact restored ministry.com. We'd love to hear from you. In closing a, another huge barrier that a lot of people face when it comes to actually going through with counseling is finding a good counselor.

And I totally understand that. And when we think of counselors and talk about counselors at restored, we are typically looking for three main things. We're first looking for someone who's competent, who's good at their craft. They know. What they're doing, they have the expertise, they have the experience, they have the training, all of that.

They need to be competent next. They have to have a good understanding of the human person because they're trying to treat very deep and often complicated issues. And so they really need a good understanding of the human person. And lastly, there need to be someone who appreciates and understands how damaging the breakdown as your family can be.

There's a lot of counselors out there who really don't understand this. They don't appreciate it. They don't know the research on how damaging it can be and they might end up saying harmful things to you because, well, you know, you're struggling with the breakdown of your parents' marriage and they're just maybe making light of it saying, well, now you.

Two homes and twice as many gifts and all that sort of stuff, that's just not helpful at all. So you wanna find someone again, who's competent, someone who understands a human person and someone who can understand and appreciate what would be so harmful about the breakdown of your parents' marriage. Now, for those of you who come from a faith background, you might also want someone who is a Christian, let's say.

So that goes into that second point. Having a good understanding of the human person. One thing I wanna say on that note, though, a very competent counselor who maybe doesn't share your same faith background should still be able to help you. There shouldn't be a conflict there in, in a lot of cases, not in every case, but in a lot of cases, if they're not able to do that, to be objective and help you, even if they don't come from your faith background, then that says that they're not extremely competent in what they do just to be.

But at the same time, I totally understand if you wanna go to someone who does come from a faith background. And so go ahead and look for that. You can find people you can ask around we're building our network, which I'll I'll tell you about in a second, but a few pointers when it comes to looking for a counselor, understand if you're looking for a Christian counselor, that that doesn't guarantee that they're good at what they.

It's like, you know, finding a Christian plumber, a Christian doctor, it's like, great they're Christian. Awesome. That doesn't make them good at what they do. They need to be good at what they do. So just make sure you're separating those things. Don't assume that just because they're Christian, because they're Catholic, that they're good at what they do.

Make sure that you're, uh, finding someone who who's also very competent. Take a shopping around approach. You know, you can interview a few different counselors, do the phone consultations, maybe have two or three options. And then from there you make a, a good decision. So don't be afraid to take those consultations, to just take this approach that I'm testing it up.

We'll see how it goes. You don't need to commit fully to someone before you really even know if you click with them. Well. And so test it out, see if there's one of them who you can really relate to. You thought really got you, understood you and you can help. And again, don't be afraid to ask a ton of questions when you're meeting with the counselors to really get an understanding of where they're coming from again, on the aspect of, are they competent?

Do they understand the human person? Well, are they gonna give you, you know, good advice. And then lastly, do they understand how damaging it can be to come from a broken home? If you want more info about that checkout episode 12, with Dr. Julia Sadusky. In that episode, we talk about how many sessions it takes to, to start feeling better.

We talk about the, the number one factor that determines whether counseling is gonna work for you or not how to find the right counselor for you. Uh, so you give some questions that you should be asking. To a counselor before you commit to doing therapy with them and then how to make the most out of counseling, like what you need to do in order to make the most out of it.

Again, that's episode 12.

So at ReSTOR, you probably know we are building a network of counselors that we trust that we vet that we recommend to you. And so if you wanna find a counselor, some of the benefits of using our network is that it's gonna save you a lot of time and effort in searching. For a counselor, we're gonna connect you with a, a trained profession who can give you the help that you need, give you the tools that you need to heal so you can feel a hole again and again, these are people that we vetted that we trust that we recommend the counseling network at this time at this recording is not fully ready, but it will be.

And so if you wanna get on the wait list, you can just go to restored ministry.com. Coaching again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/coaching. You just fill out a simple form and then we're gonna connect you with a counselor. And so thanks for your patience. As we build that out, it's a huge project that we're working on, but it's really important.

Again, that's restored ministry.com. Slash coaching. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 40. Again, restored ministry.com/four. Thank you so much for listening. Hope this has been useful for you or maybe someone, you know, if it has been, I invite you to subscribe and to share this podcast with someone, you know, who could use it.

Always, remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#039: The Anatomy of a Wound & How to Heal | Dr. Bob Schuchts, PhD

As a psychologist, author, and speaker, Dr. Bob Schuchts has dedicated his life to helping people heal their brokenness. 

In this episode, he offers his expertise on healing, but he doesn’t stop there. He also shares how his parents’ broken marriage deeply affected him. It took years, but he did find healing - for himself and even his family. We delve into that and more:

• The anatomy of a wound

• How the healing process works

• 1 tip you can do today to heal

Register: Dr. Bob’s Healing Retreat

Buy the Book: Be Healed [affiliate link]

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Books by Dr. Bob Schuchts

  • Be Healed: A Guide to Encountering the Powerful Love of Jesus in Your Life

  • Be Devoted: Restoring Friendship, Passion, and Communion in Your Marriage

  • Be Transformed: The Healing Power of the Sacraments

  • Be Restored: Healing Our Sexual Wounds through Jesus' Merciful Love

  • Forty Weeks:: A Journey of Healing and Transformation for Priests 

  • Real Suffering: Finding Hope and Healing in the Trials of Life

• Book by Jay Stringer

  • Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing

• Follow Dr. Bob

  • John Paul II Healing Center

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Today, I'm joined by Dr. Bob Schutz on the show. Dr. Bob is a psychologist. He's an author speaker, and he's been a therapist for over 30 years and he is helped so many people to heal and feel whole again, he's very experienced and he's truly an expert when it comes to brokenness and healing, but he's actually also a child of divorce.

And so in this show, we talk about his story. We talk about how his dad's alcoholism was a big part of the reason that his parents' marriage broke apart. There was infidelity involved and he gets into some of that. And he says that when his dad left. To him, it felt like an emotional abortion. And he explains exactly what he means by that.

He also explains how the breakdown of his parents' marriage affected him over the years, and also how he's found healing, not only for himself, but how he helped his entire family to heal as well. But he also gets into how his own struggles within his marriage really were rooted in the breakdown of his family.

And he almost went down the same path as his parents. Then we get into the anatomy of a wound. We talk about how a wound works. Like, what are the pieces of a wound? He explains the three layers of a wound. We also get into the healing process. He explains how healing works, what are the steps and the healing process.

And we touch on some of the barriers that prevent healing as well. And then finally he gives encouragement and advice to, to anyone listening right now who just feels broken, who feels stuck, especially because of the trauma that you've experienced in your families. He just gives one tip that you can do today to begin or continue healing.

This conversation's so good, so valuable. And so keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 39 and like I mentioned, I'm joined today by Dr. Bob. Shoot Dr. Bob is the founder of the John poll II healing center.

He's a nationally renowned speaker. He is also spoken overseas. Dr. Bob is the author of the book be healed. He's also the author of the book be transformed. As I mentioned, Dr. Bob has spent more than 30 years as a therapist, but he's also taught graduate and undergraduate courses in marriage and family relationships, human development, applied psychology and marriage and family therapy.

He held adjunct professor positions at Florida state university, Tallahassee community college, and the center for biblical studies in Tallahassee, Florida. He's also taught courses at the theology of the body Institute and the August. Institute as you find it in a second, Dr. Bob's so competent when it comes to helping people heal so they can feel whole again, a quick disclaimer, for any of you listening, who aren't religious, uh, just wanna let you know that we do talk about God and faith in this episode.

And if that's you, I'm so glad that you're here. We obviously exist to serve everyone regardless of their background or their faith. But when we bring guests on the show, if faith and their relationship with God has been a big part of their healing, their story, we let 'em talk about it. And so we're not a solely religious show, but we're also not a solely secular show.

We kind of mix between the two. And so my challenge to you is to keep an open mind, go into this episode with an open mind. And even if you were to take all the parts out where we talk about God, you're still gonna gain so much from this episode. So that's my challenge. You keep an open mind, everyone. I'm so thrilled to share this conversation with you.

Here it is

Dr. Bob, thank you so much for joining us. Hey, Joey, it's great to be with you. I love what you're doing. Thank you. You, you as well. And there's so much that we can talk about, you have so much expertise in helping people heal and feel whole again. And I wanna get into all of that, but to start out, I'm actually interested in your story.

Like so many people listening, you also come from a broken home. And so if you're comfortable with it, what happened there? Tell us the story. Yeah, it's interesting. We're having this interview on my dad's birthday. He would've been 86, so a lot of my story involves him and I have a great love for him, but it was a difficult season in our life.

I was, um, I'm second oldest of seven children and then three more by his remarriages, but I was actually very close to my dad and, and remained that way through his whole life. And you know, my whole life mm-hmm . But during the early years of my teenage years, from about 11 to 14, things got tumultuous at home.

I didn't realize at the time that he was beginning to drink heavily and stay away from home and also having affairs at the time, but just finally all blew up when he left, when I was 14 and I didn't see him for two years just crushing, you know, the, wow. I wanted to be like him. I, you know, I loved him. He, he was a good disciplinarian and a good friend.

He used to come in, bless us every night before we go to bed, all the children with me and my mom and taught me about the faith. I would sit next to him at mass and we'd get quizzed on the way home. So mine, isn't the typical story of a lot of resentment towards the parent because they weren't a good parent.

I, you know, I had a deep love and, but I think in some ways it made the divorce harder. I've heard other people say that, you know, as a relief at some level when their dad left or their mom left, because it was so terrible at home. For me, it wasn't that case. Sure. And so if, if for me the best way that I can describe it, It was like an emotional abortion.

Hmm. It was like, it was like a ripping apart of a bond. And, uh, like my dad had died. In fact, you know, I, I laid there at night as a 13, 14 year old. Wondering if I'd ever see him again, wondering if he was alive, wondering if he'd go to heaven or hell or hell if he died. And, you know, so it was, it was just really in that sense, even in the present was really painful, difficult, but the reality is I didn't deal with the pain for many years at, at the time there was a lot of anxiety.

What I now can see as depression is somewhat humorous to me, but it wasn't humorous back then is my uncle. My mother's brother was also going through a hard time. We moved in with them for a little while and he and I painted his entire room black in terms, even his windows. Hmm. I sit there and say, what would motivate me to want paint?

Somebody's. Window black and up with is depression, you know? Right. Uh, it's kind of like in that stage when all the pain is there, uh, you just, your heart shuts down. And I look back and I say, I wasn't aware of being depressed at the time, but I had the symptoms. I was, I, uh, withdrawing from people. I was in sports.

I, I, you know, I wasn't a great basketball player, but I scoring like 20 points, a game down to zero. After that in school, I was a good student, went down to struggling in school for that next year. I began to pull away from relationships. And then for me and all of my brothers and sisters, as we talk about this, and we would have lots of talks later on with my dad.

We all had a lot of feeling of not being safe. You know, it's like my dad. Being present was a protector in the home. And when he wasn't there, there was like this fear and this lack of protection. In fact, when we moved down to south Florida, our house was down to south Florida is broken into a couple times, and we never felt that insecurity prior to my dad leaving.

Wow. I can relate to that in a lot of levels. I remember as a boy, uh, we had this white minivan and I remember, you know, even being really young, like sitting in my car seat and, you know, coming home from a family party or something. My, you know, dad was driving. Mom was in the passenger seat, my siblings and I were all there.

And I remember just feeling so safe and, and like the presence of my father safe in the presence of my family. And that all changed for me too. So I can relate to that. And some of the other things that you said, and it's so interesting how we can walk around in the world, so broken and struggling and never really become fully aware of it or, or never at least become aware of the root cause of it.

We blame something else. Yeah. And it's such a, a lie in our culture right now that divorce kids and divorce do fine. And it's, you know, if, if you were to look at our family and the measures of success of school and sports and work, and all this would say there's no effect, but every single one of us would be able to say, no, the effects were deep and profound, but it took us a lot of years.

to be aware of how much it affected us. Yeah. I couldn't agree more with that. And that's the common trend that we see from the stories that we hear, the research that we read, and it's really unmistakable. Once you start to talk to people like us who come from broken families or read the research yeah.

That this really profoundly impacts people for years, for years and years. And there is a possibility for healing. There's so much hope at which we'll get into, but it, we have to really start with the fact that this is devastating. This is a really difficult thing. Even in those situations where it may be necessary, it's still a really difficult thing to go through.

Yeah. Yeah. Even, even when the situation at home is horrible, there's still a great loss of two parents raising children and loving each other and providing security there. So, uh, I think sometimes the divorce starts way before the parents separate in, in the hearts of the. Absolutely. Yeah, we, we say that it's, it's not like this, uh, random event.

It's not like an Adam bomb that went off and like, oh, I don't know where that came from. Right. It's been building for years. And now it's the, the summit, the pinnacle of a really messy situation. You mentioned a little bit how it affected you. Was there anything else that you observed over the years following the breakdown in your family and how it affected you?

Well, I think the biggest effect was in trust. I remember, again, this didn't come up until I got married and had children, but I remember, uh, well, I, it was actually before, when I was dating my wife. I remember having this insecurity jealousy, particularly when she would relate to men. And she was just a very friendly, loving person, but I would, I would have this anxiety and I, I couldn't identify it as anxiety.

Then I, I identified it as she was doing something wrong in my mind, but it, but it wasn't until I experienced healing in that area. And we can talk about that a little later, but I didn't, I wasn't aware of how deeply the loss of my dad affected my trust levels and my ability to feel secure in relationships.

And it was only after some of those areas were healed and the, the pain was released that I could then trust at another level that I couldn't before. And, you know, to me, that's still ongoing in some ways, you know, the it's, it's like, uh, such a painful loss that it affects trust. You know, it's like I trusted it affected my trust in God and affected my trust in my dad, but it also affected my capacity to trust anybody.

Hmm. I've seen that same thing in my life and the lives of the people that we work with. I, uh, I always say that healing is really an infinite goal. Yep. You mentioned that, you know, you're still dealing with some. I can totally relate too. You know, I've made a lot of progress and I know you've made tons of progress in your personal life, and you're now helping, you know, hundreds and thousands of people heal.

But yeah, healing is certainly an infinite goal. It's like fitness. I think that's the best example. We never wake up one day and say, okay, I'm done. Like I've reached the pinnacle of fitness. I will never work out again. I'll never eat healthy again. I'm done. We of course need to continue on that path, even though we can, you know, make real progress and find closure in certain areas of our lives.

Yeah. Uh, it's, it's real and it's, it's, uh, makes a huge difference. And without it, we can just repeat the trauma in one way or another, you know, without really engaging and healing, we can either go through. In fact, it's part of my story. I was, I never wanted to divorce because I knew the damage, but I got to the place where it felt like I was being swept down this corridor because I hadn't dealt with a pain in my own heart.

It was ho it was terrifying to me. It was really, that was really the darkest time in my life was those year and a half where I was struggling with that. And it was. Only in the healing of that, that I could freely give my heart to my wife, uh, in a way that I couldn't before that. And, and then even though I could always do it with my children, it was, it was a greater security for them when that healing took place.

That's beautiful. Yeah. And it made a huge difference. And then the healing then started taking place with my brothers and sisters, my parents, the whole family together. It's just, it's a beautiful story of God's redemption. And what did you do in. Wow. So the cycle can work in the opposite, um, extreme as well.

AB absolutely. Absolutely. That's really encouraging because I think so many of us who come from broken homes, everyone listening right now, often we see the brokenness past generation to generation and, you know, the cycle of divorce is just repeating and that's really why we exist at store. We wanna reverse the cycle of divorce by helping young people heal and build virtue because the sad truth is that, you know, when you come from a broken family, uh, you're much more likely to get divorced yourself, statistically.

And so we, we believe that if we can help people to heal and build virtue, then they're gonna be these strong individuals who build good marriages and good marriages of course, are the foundation of, uh, strong families and strong families are gonna transform our world. And so it's really, this is so vital that we get this right.

It is so vital. It is really vital. It's the, it's the core of everything, uh, because. So much of what we're dealing with in society is the breakdown in the family. And you can look at almost every social indicator of distress in our society, and it's one way or another, it goes back to a loss of faith and a loss of, uh, secure love in the family.

Wow. Incredible. And I want to get into that before we do, uh, what are a couple things in your life that were really, really helpful on a personal level? I know again, you help people on a professional level now, but I'm curious, like personally you, what, what were one or two things that really helped you to heal?

Wow, it's gonna be difficult to identify one or two cause there's hundreds, but sure. I think right away, I, I really had a, a father void in my teenage years without my dad there. And so right away, good solid men coaches and you know, one summer coaches, one was a professional football player that I worked out with.

That was in the right next to the school I went to, who took me under his wing, brought me to Christian camp fellowship, Christian athlete, camp, summer camp. And you know, those, those had a tremendous impact. I don't know where I would've gone without having those kind of godly male influences. My mother obviously was still in faith and everything, but a mother can't give what a father can give.

And because these coaches and this professional athlete, as men got engaged in my life, it made a big difference in terms of forming me. And, you know, we see this statistic as when a mother continues to go to church. There's only, I don't know the exact numbers, but there's a lot lower percentage of the children that go to church if the father isn't.

But if the father is active in his faith and it's faithful, the faith of the children is like 80% or something like that. It's really incredible difference. Wow. And so having these, you know, having seen my father kind of fall off the cliff and his faith life. It was devastating, created a loss of trust in the whole, in God, the father in, in church and everything else.

But having these men who I could see were genuine in their faith and cared about me and were invested in me that made a big difference. So that's one that's. I would put that in one category. That's incredible. Yeah. And I don't mean to limit you there. What, uh, what were some other, I guess, really impactful, uh, methods or things that helped you heal?

I think the second was getting really coming to understand the church's teaching about marriage and family life. It, it, it all felt so intuitively true when I studied it. But I remember in high school, I had a course by a priest in Catholic high school in south Florida. And, uh, he was integrating faith in, in psychology and marriage and family.

And I had had no idea at the time, but I could see now looking back, that was the spark for my profession, but it was also. A foundation of truth that got shattered before that. And, and so just being able to see and know, and, and, you know, when you, when you see what's true, uh, whether it's in the church or out of the church, it just resonates in their heart.

And that's what happened. It was like, yes, this is the truth here. This is the truth of what I need, what everybody needs. And there's something very grounding when you can, when you can get past the confusion of what happened and just say, okay, but even though this happened, this is still the way of love.

You know, this is still what we all need and it's, and it's true and it's trustworthy. So that helped restore the trust. And then from there, I was able to build a trust in reading scripture, coming to trust the person of Jesus, you know, the person who had the integrity that would never, uh, let me down in that way.

But that was a tremendously important thing. And then from there to be able to trust the church again, uh, even though I was still participating in church, there wasn't a deep trust for the teachings of the church or those things. And then a, again, I could go on and on and on, uh, about different healing experiences, but those are pretty foundational ones.

Incredible. And I know in your books, you elaborate on that and I'll tell you guys, uh, listening at the end, how you can grab those books. If you wanna learn more for anyone listening, who isn't familiar with, you know, the church's teaching on, uh, marriage and family. Part of the reason that it's so helpful is because it offers a very clear roadmap, a blueprint on how to build love that lasts.

And that, that was so encouraging for me too. Dr. Bob. Because one of the things that the research shows, I know, you know, this well and anyone who's listened to the show for a long time knows that the biggest area of our lives that is impacted by the divorce, according to research is our own relationships, especially our romantic relationships and our marriages.

Yeah. And the reason as simple, you know, we don't have a roadmap for love. We've seen a broken model of love and marriage. And so when it's our turn, we don't know how to do it. We feel kinda lost. We feel discouraged, like it's not even possible. And so, uh, it's so refreshing to understand that, okay, God has a plan for this.

You know, if you do these things, if you understand, you know, this is the purpose of marriage, uh, it's so hopeful, clarifying, and it makes it way easier when you're actually enter into a relationship into a marriage, to, to live out that love and experience the joy that we're all meant to experience. Yeah.

It's, it makes a huge difference, even though we still need to heal into those areas. Just having the, the roadmap is, is critical. And for me, probably for you too, but jump all the second teaching on marriage and family, and particularly the theology of the body has influenced me profoundly. And my family, my children, my grandchildren, you know, it's, it's just been, had a huge effect in terms of giving that B.

It's been so helpful for me as well. I really became aware of it through Jason Everett. I heard him yeah. Speak when I was gosh, 14 years old. And I had already made a lot of mistakes when it came to, you know, pornography and Lu. And so his message, which really comes from, you know, love and responsibility yeah.

Was so refreshing. And so hopeful to me, he answered all the questions. I never even knew that I had about love and sexuality and marriage. And so, yeah. Uh, I couldn't agree more. We could talk about that all day. I'm sure. Yeah. yeah, probably any of these things we're talking about could be a conversation by itself.

Yeah. Amen. Couldn't agree. More. I wanna switch gears. I wanna talk about the anatomy of a wound. You write about this, uh, in your book, be healed. You write that, you know, there's various pieces and parts to wound, and I think it's really helpful if we wanna heal to understand that. And so if you would please teach us about that, break that down for us.

Yeah. And, and let me put it in the relation to the, to the divorce, because it'll become much more alive in this way, but. And, and be healed and, and other material, I talk about three circles as like three levels of the heart or three layers of the heart. And on the inside is just the pain from the wound.

So it's, it's trauma. And as we're finding more and more about trauma, trauma stays in your body until it's released and it stays in your mind and it affects the way your brain's organized and it affects the way every cell of your body. And so, you know, it, it affects our physical, emotional, spiritual health.

And typically trauma is too much for us to bear in the moment. That's why it takes us a while to work through trauma, but it's not that the trauma's in the past, it's, it's the trauma remains with us until it's released. And so it's. Through the experience of, of releasing the pain or the anger or the rage or the powerlessness or the fear or whatever manifestation that has.

But, but our bodies and our minds and our souls pulled on to trauma. One of the ways we do that is through our beliefs. And that's the next band. If you will, the next circle in its the beliefs are of two, two types. It's the things that we believe about ourselves, which affect our identity, the way we see ourselves, that's the beliefs we have about other people and about God and about life, which are we call judgements.

You know, they're the ways that filter our perception of reality, both about ourselves and about other people. And so in, you know, in the case of, you know, my, my experience of a trauma of abandonment of my dad and for you two, and there's a rejection in it, those are different wounds. There's a powerlessness there's fear.

So what we call the seven deadly wounds, all have beliefs associated with. . And so, you know, one of the beliefs and these aren't just beliefs as at an intellectual level, there's deep, deeply held beliefs of the heart, which is I'm alone. I'm not loved, I can't trust anybody. And there's a hopelessness that things aren't gonna get any better.

All those get, if you will lodged into the heart at a deep level, even if our mind knows a different truth or understanding knows a different truth, those, those things kind of hold, we hold onto them and they hold onto us. And we actually hold onto them as a way of protecting against the trauma. Believe it or not, even though they keep the trauma in place and keep us in the trauma.

They're, they're in some ways a barrier to that trauma and then the judgements we have to other people, you know, it's like the judgements that I made towards my dad or about marriage or about God, or about the church or about women, you know, or about drinking, you know, all those things that, that form perceptions.

that then play themselves out when you get involved in relationships, you know, a lot of those judgements have unforgiveness related to them. Uh, and so we work through a process of forgiveness, but also of really recognizing and releasing the judgements because they filter everything. They're like putting on glasses, that color, everything that you see.

And then the final outside circle is what we call inner vows or resolutions of the will of ways we're gonna protect ourselves. So one of mine was, I will never divorce like my parents, because I'll never want to hurt my children. Like I was hurt and we were hurt or I'll never want to hurt my wife. Like my dad hurt my mother.

And you say, well, that's a really good vow, right? Yeah. Yeah. But it isn't, it was good when I made it in marriage with the holy spirit. And that's really what I promise and I'm gonna love my wife for better or for worse and sickness and in health. And that vow actually kept us together. But this inner vow wasn't even conscious.

It was made out of fear and judgment. And in that it, it creates this self-protection that actually almost brought me into a place that was a very thing that I feared. And it's, it's hard to describe that, but it's, it's like I was so in fear of hurting my wife and hurting my children, that I didn't deal with the pain, or even with the conflicts that came up, you know, I was afraid of being afraid of rejecting or afraid of being alone or, and so those vows actually led me to insulate and protect and to control, uh, because that's what we do out of fear is we tend to control things rather than trust mm-hmm

And so it creates this whole vicious cycle of destruction. That you're not even aware of until you're face to face with it. And that, that really began my deeper healing process. It was 10 years into my marriage, 10 to 12 years into my marriage. Incredible. And I, I love what you said that it almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If we're not aware of these things, if we don't actively work to heal, we can go down the path of the thing that we fear the most. And I know for a lot of us, like you mentioned, our biggest fear is that we would repeat what we saw in our parents' marriage. We're terrified of that. We don't want that. Yeah.

Um, but often, like you said, we're pulled in that direction because we don't deal with the underlying causes that the brokenness there, that would cause us to repeat that cycle. Yeah, exactly. It, it, terror is a great word for it. And you know, you think of terror as a, you know, a nightmare or something. But for me, that was my worst nightmare is bringing my children through what we experienced and it wasn't even conscious.

That's the hard thing is cuz I didn't know how much pain I had experienced. But I knew intuitively that I didn't want anybody else to experience it. Hm. I think it's encouraging too, that it might not be encouraging for you, but for people listening, you know, it took 10 years into your marriage to figure this out.

And so anyone who's listening, who, you know, you've been going at this for a while, you've been struggling. You maybe feel kind of hopeless. Um, it takes time, but, but it's worth it. And you will see results in the end if you stay with it. And so we'll talk about that a little bit more. I love what you said also about, you know, these things being unconscious on, on many levels, you know, we can understand it, like you said, on an intellectual level, but at the level of our heart, we may still be, be stuck and unable to, to move forward in our life, to let things go, to find closure, to forgive, to do all the things that you mentioned.

Yeah. And, and sometimes we, we do kind of a GLI forgiveness of, you know, I forgive you without really dealing. The pain and the, and the beliefs and the judgements and all that. Oh, that's really good. What are some examples of, of those core wounds that kind of cause us to, you know, make those vows to experience that trauma, to have those beliefs that you mentioned, uh, what are some core wounds, especially for people who come from broken families.

Yeah. I mentioned several of them and, and I like to think back to the fall of mankind because all of these happened when we broke our relationship with God at the beginning, you know, at the story of Adam and Eve of, of the rupture that happened with sin, all the Williams happened, then, you know, shame and fear and rejection and powerlessness, hopelessness, and those still happen.

Anytime there's any breaking of relationship. And so whether it's divorce or whether it's a broken friendship, or we can experience those wounds. And sometimes all at once, sometimes some are more visible than others, but. You know, I, I really, when I talk about a divorce is kind of like an emotional abortion, uh, or a spiritual abortion.

There's, there's something to that because if you've ever seen what happens in an abortion, and there's just this ripping apart of an attachment that the mother and the child, you know, the child is short lived, but it's intense pain on their part. But on the mother's part, it's something that stays with her for the rest of her life until it's healed.

And, and the same thing happens in divorce. It's like everybody, I found out later as we went through this healing process, that it wasn't just me. It was all my brothers and sisters, my mom and my dad carried this pain with him. And even though my dad could drink and, and deny it for many years and go through a second divorce and go through the same thing when he began his healing process.

And by the way, our forgiveness and, and working with him, helped him in that. Wow, his pain was just the same as ours, but in fact, as I had an opportunity later, In life to pray with him, for healing and his childhood pain, even though he'd never gone through the divorce was very similar to my pain living in the conflict between his parents.

And so, and so we live with, you know, the words just don't describe the intensity of the trauma, but, uh, yeah, abandonment is this sense of being cut off from vital relationship and connection. Rejection is a sense of, I'm not wanted, I'm not chosen. I'm not lovable. Fear is I can't trust anybody cuz I'm just gonna get hurt.

So I have to protect myself powerlessness. I can't change this. I just feel trapped, stuck, helpless, unable to do something. Hopelessness is things are never gonna change. It's never gonna get any better. I'll never have what I want confusion is I can't figure this out. I don't know what to do. I, I don't know if I've covered all the sure.

All the, all the wounds there, but those, those are the seven deadly wounds that I talk about in. In most of my books. Incredible. I, I can say that, you know, when my dad left the house yeah. I immediately felt abandoned and I felt unwanted. So yeah. You know, like you said, the rejection and I, I noticed, you know, looking back in my life, so many of my struggles, especially with LUS, like pornography, it was just an attempt to feel wanted.

Yeah, exactly. And so, if any of you are out there dealing with pornography or dealing with those things, there's, there's real needs that are unmet in real wounds, underlying that. And when you deal with those deeper wounds and lies and vows and all those things, then, then you lose taste for the, for the thing that's artificial that never satisfies.

I, I would say every one of my brothers and sisters after my dad left, got into some kind of sexual sin. Wow. And there was no more example. And you know, it was just unconsciously following. Uh, the brokenness, like you said. Yeah. And in some cases I know it's an attempt to rewrite a very broken story. We think, well, maybe I can make a different, if I, yeah.

Go down this path part of the way and then change the ending, right? Yeah. Yeah. Which is again, go into powerlessness. We try to control and it just ends up leaving us more powerless. Yeah. So true. I wanna get to the healing process before I do one of the things you say in your book that is just so profound, is that at the root of almost every wound, we probably could say every wound, but let's say almost every wound is a deprivation of love.

And we've touched on this a bit already, but I think it's so profound. What exactly do you mean by that? Would you elaborate a little bit on that? Yeah. And I wanna speak it, bring it back to just what we were talking about is these wounds of our hearts. If you think about our hearts from a spiritual, emotional standpoint, our hearts are the symbol of love and God gave us hearts.

To love him and to love each other. And when we have a wound, there's a place where our level of capacity to love gets wounded. But what causes that wound is a deprivation of love or a distortion of love. And so, you know, whether it's unhealthy kind of love that hurts us, or it's the loss, the loss of love or the, the lost example of love between our parents, all of those things were, were made for that.

It's like, it's like the food that we need to drink and eat constantly. You know, the emotional, spiritual food is love. And if we're cut off from that, uh, in our family, even if we have it in other places, there's, there's a deprivation there that wounds us. And it, it's not just after divorce it's before divorce too.

Yeah. It's it's in any family, wherever love is in present, we're wounded and you know, it's really what sin is. Sin is the. a violation of love and it's the violation of our love with God and our violation, our love with each other. Wow, incredible. And I've always, you know, thought that well, if love is the meaning of life, if that's, you know, one of the reasons that we're here on this earth is to love and to be loved the greater our capacity to love the more free that we truly are, the lesser capacity to love, the less free that we truly are.

And so you can think of, you know, you can think through different habits, different acts, and you can ask the question, does this increase my capacity to love, or does it decrease my capacity to love? And you know, one of my struggles in the past was pornography. And, you know, if I'm honest, kinda looking through that lens of love and freedom, it certainly decreased my capacity to love.

And therefore made me less free because it taught me to use another person instead of loving them. And so that's always been helpful for me. And so this deprivation of love, doesn't just stop at love. It really impacts our freedom. Yeah. And so just to bring that all together, as you're describing it, it's, you know, the broken love is what led you to seek some kind of control over the love that you're missing.

And so there's a fantasy. in the pornography of receiving, being wanted, being loved, being nurtured, whatever those images are in the pornography in fantasy life mm-hmm . And then, you know, going to masturbation, which is a way of just comforting and ING of, you know, of, of changing the chemistry in your body so that you for a minute, get this euphoric release of pain, but it actually adds to a deeper sense of shame, a deeper sense of being unlovable, a deeper sense of being unwanted.

And then as you describe, it's also feeding this using manipulating kind of attitude, uh, where you then with real people, you know, I'm using you in the general sense. You with real people begin to relate to people as objects to be used rather than as people to be cherished. And then we get stuck in this cycle and you see how, when people enter into marriage in those ways, and they don't know how to love with a self-giving.

A mature chase love. Then it just repeats that pain from generational to generation. Absolutely. In, uh, in his book, uh, Jay stringer, he's a counselor out on the west coast, but he wrote a, an incredible book. You probably heard of UN yeah. Unwanted for anyone. Who's not familiar with throw it in the show notes for you, but unwant, his name is unwanted.

How sexual brokenness reveals our way to healing. And just like you said, Dr. Bob, he says that our fantasies and our attractions are actually a way to heal. Like if we really understand, okay, what am I drawn to in pornography? What am I drawn to? And, you know, whatever way I'm acting out, it, it can be a clue to the brokenness underneath the unmet needs that we're trying to fill.

Yeah. Uh, my next book is on that subject and I quote him several times and wow. I've found that as we pay attention to that and really walk into that, it really shows us where our wounds are. And so, you know, when I work with people who are struggling with pornography or other kind of sexual fantasy, I'm always asking.

Okay, what are you envisioning? What are you desiring there? And what's where is that rooted? Jesus. Show us where that's rooted. Holy spirit. Bring us back to the roots. And it's almost always in the places where de deprivation of love has been. Wow. Incredible. How it all comes together. Yeah, really does.

Well, do you have a title for your next book? I wanna make sure that it's called be restored. Awesome. Good name. I love it. Yeah. Be restored at the subtitle is healing our sexual wounds through Jesus merciful. Love. Incredible. That's gonna be so helpful for so many people. We'll be sure to promote it here on the podcast.

And we'll, uh, we'll definitely add it to the show notes guys. Uh, so you can pick that up. If you're listening to this at a later point in time, I wanna switch gears to the healing process. And again, we can do a separate shows on each of these topics, but for someone who's broken, who, who, but, um, you know, who has experienced a lot of trauma and who knows they need to heal, but they're unsure how to, uh, how does healing work?

Like what does that look like? What are the steps in the process? There's, there's lots of different pieces of this, but if I could put it in a simple process, I think the first thing is being with somebody that, you know, loves you, whether that's in marriage or whether that's in, you know, like I mentioned with coaches, whether that's with siblings, whether that's with therapists, whether that's with the spiritual director, whether that's with a good mentor, we all need to have a place where we feel secure and that place where we feel secure.

Has to be grounded in truth. What I mean by that is the love has to be genuine. The love has to have integrity to it because if somebody who appears to be loving us is actually just setting us up to use us, or really is not interested in being there for us. It just increases the wounding. Um, but having people in our life who can see us and know us and are trustworthy and have integrity and really know how to love in a, in a healthy way, uh, is, is healing in itself.

Even if we never do anything else in the process, being around people who love well is healing and nobody loves perfectly, but just in a grounded way. And in, you know, the person for me that, you know, Jesus is the epitome of that to me, I've I've received a lot of healing also in relation to the holy family.

Uh, just seeing what real love looks like. And, and in my prayer life, being able to enter into that even to this day, as part of my morning, prayer is, uh, just allowing myself to be little in union with Jesus, with the holy family and experiencing the love of the holy family. So the, the next pace, the next part of it is feeling safe enough to be able to share our pain and our trauma.

And, you know, for me, that was started with the things that came up in marriage. But then I actually had a, a panic attack, which I didn't know was all this pain coming to the surface, but it was around the threats that I was feeling in my marriage that drove me to therapy. Even though I'd been a therapist, I, I hadn't gone to therapy.

and in that process, I began to express for the first time, my pain, but it was really disconnected. It was just kind of like telling a story that I wasn't connected to emotionally. And I remember the first time I was talking about, uh, what had happened and, and my therapist was a woman and she began to cry and it was the first time I had ever felt somebody's compassion for my pain.

It was just like, wow, wow. You know how to process it. And then in my therapy, she led me, I couldn't go back to my pain from childhood. I couldn't get in touch with it. So she led me to talk about the pain and the present, how I experienced it when I would see my dad. And then he would leave where as a teenager, when he would leave, uh, after coming to visit a couple years after he left.

And I remember the first time in therapy, if she's asking me that and I, I had not cried in 20 years, I cried like a baby. When my dad left, you know, just. For 20 minutes probably. Yeah. And then I've been cry again for 20 years. And as she's asking me about how I felt and what I wanted to say to my dad, when he was leaving at the airport, I heard what felt like a teenage voice inside of me saying, dad, don't leave.

I need you. And one little tier started trickling down my face. And that was really the beginning of thawing. What had been a very frozen place of my heart. And not long after that, I had an experience of going on a spiritual retreat, which was really vital and a group of men that were really honest. And we could share our stories with each other.

It's called Christ news is parish. I dunno if you're familiar with that, but yeah, very powerful. And, uh, I had a, I had in that a time, I won't go into depths here. I talk about it in my NBU, but I had a time of prayer. Where I experienced, God's love, you know, the love of God to father that was profoundly life changing.

And I cried tears of joy the next day. So it was, that was the first time I really released tears, but these were tears of joy. And three months later, I had this healing experience where I relived my dad leaving. And as that's all happening, I just collapsed against a wall. You know, it's hard to describe this, but I just collapsed, sobbing, feeling the pain of me at 14.

And I also went over to that 14 year old boy inside my own heart and could love him where I'd been pushing him away. Uh, before that I also had compassion for my mother's pain and my brothers and sisters' pain. And that really led to a healing that started to transform our whole family. So my dad and brothers and I started going on retreats together after a lot.

Each of us going through spiritual renewal. Uh, my dad went through AA and was able to apologize. We were able to forgive him. We were able to talk about our story together. Uh, then there would be situations where our whole family was together and, uh, my dad would apologize in front of all of us and just beautiful healing times.

It was just God's grace in all of our lives. But for each of us individually, there's still this place where we have to go back and face the trauma and then really deal with the identity lies that got internalized that are still playing themselves out and the judgements releasing the judgments for giving and then releasing the vows and, um, just making, making conscious decisions to release and invite the holy spirit into those places so that we're living in love, not in fear and not in control.

So it's a lot more than all of that, but that's the best way I could put it in a summary. That no, that's super helpful. And I think the simple model, the framework that you just laid out is really helpful. And if people want to go deeper than going on your retreats, reading your books is, is the way to go.

What you said about, you know, the 14 year old, you just imagining saying, you know, dad, don't leave. I need you, man. That just gave me chills and almost made me tear up cuz it's so it's so moving. And I think all of us need to, like you said, go to that place to kind of confront that younger version of ourselves if we wanna experiencing any sort of feeling.

Yeah. And, and you know, there's a lot of resistance to facing those places because we don't wanna feel the pain and we don't want to need, uh, we don't want need, we wanna shut off our needs and just take care of ourselves. And so it took a while to get to that place where I could express that pain from a place of my heart, not just intellectualize.

Speaking of speaking of obstacles and barriers, what are some of the main obstacles that you observe in people's lives when it comes to healing? Things that prevent them from healing from going forward with this fear and control are big barriers, uh, unforgiveness, judgments, uh, vows, all those things we've been mentioning are barriers, identity lies, not feeling safe, not, not having a place where you can go and have somebody really attend to you and you have the room and space talk through it.

All. Those are different barriers. Dissociations also a big barrier for those who, who don't know dissociation. There's a protective mechanism that God has planted in each one of us to help us deal with trauma. And it's a way that we can compartmentalize the trauma and not face it all at once. And it's called dissociation.

So we can have a memory of something without the feelings, or we can have feelings without a memory, or we can just be. Knows something happened without having either feelings or real memory of it. And it's only in the process of trusting and coming to feel safe enough that that dissociation can break down enough for us to begin to express the pain.

So what I was describing is I had lived in dissociation of that pain for many years. Until I was ready in the safe enough environment to release it. And you know, part of the releasing is just grieving, you know, it's, it's going through the grieving process. Yeah. And, uh, there's so much to say there, but it's good to know that, you know, you can't overcome those barriers you have in your own life and you've helped so many people to do that.

I think one big barrier is often an unwillingness to open up to a relationship with God. And I know a lot of people deal with that, especially when they come from broken families. And the, the way that I explain it to people is, you know, when we're kids, the most powerful creatures that we know are our parents.

And so we tend to think, well, if mom and dad are like this, then God must be like this too. And in a very broken home, what often happens is we get this extra distorted image of God. And so we may be very. Sent to this idea of, you know, any sort of relationship with God where, because, you know, we, we just don't trust him.

We don't think that he is actually good. We don't think that he actually wants to, to love us and heal us. Maybe we think he wants to use us or something. You know, we, we project what we experienced with our parents. And so what would you say to someone who, um, really isn't ready for this God stuff? Like, can they still heal?

Like how do they overcome that? Yeah. I, I was looking for a quote here, as you were talking about it, because it's, uh, what you said is so true that was actually from you can't find it right now, but it was actually from former president of the university, went to from Michael scam. And he said, if, if dad was distant or frightening or mean, or absent or abusive, we come to see God that way.

And you know, God is love St. John tells. And so if we have a distortion in law, we're gonna have a distortion of who God is. We're gonna see him as tyrannical or as not present, or as not existing or as not caring or any number of things. And so it's, it's really part and parcel. You know, we can study theology, which helps us know the truth about who God is, or we could read the Bible, which is, you know, a great benefit to, to find out the nature of God.

But we can even read that with a filter. I remember for years I would read the Bible and I would just see this God who seemed distant, or God who seemed angry rather than a God who is love, who sees me and loves me and chooses me and is present with me and is the strength of my life. And so a lot of the healing processes, healing our image of God.

In fact, that's really the core of the healing process is healing our image of God, because if we can't see God, right, we can't see love, right. Incredible. And, and what's the first step in healing that disordered image of God, we can't get into all of it right now, but what's like the first thing you'd say where people need to start to heal that disordered image of God, to look at the people around you who love genuinely, you know, just don't go to God yet.

Just go to the immediate environment and who around you loves you better than anybody in a genuine way. That's, that's pure and true and faithful. And that begins to give you a little glimpse, a very small glimpse of who and what, and what it's like to have a relationship with God. So helpful, uh, about, um, your retreats, your ministry.

There's so much you do to help people heal. Uh, tell us a little bit about your retreats. Like what happens if someone goes on it? Maybe they're not sure. Okay. If I go on this retreat, like what does the agenda look like? How do they work? Yeah, we have a lot of different kinds of retreats, but let's say the most common one.

Is we go into different cities and put on a retreat from Thursday evening, Friday evening, all day Saturday. And it's usually me and my brother and sister Maryam, James Hyland. My brother Bart would walk through this journey with me and, uh, others on our team are there support. And these are also virtual livestream conferences.

Uh, so people don't have to be there to, to go through it, but it's a process of teaching, of sharing our own story of having experiences of reflection, time for reflection, time, for prayer, time to receive healing, uh, in those memories. And so each talk has a different theme. That's bringing us through the process and, and then within each talk, there's an experience.

And so people come through this and have profound experiences and. You know, just over and over and over again, people say these are life changing for me. There are some people who have the experiences while they're there for others. It's it's tools to be able to engage in the process on their own time.

Some people tell us that being home in their living room and doing it virtually created a safe space for them to walk through it. Other people say it was being with other people and walking through it with others and experiencing the presence of the holy spirit in the environment that allowed them to do it.

But whichever way works for people, it just having the time and space and the direction, which is what the conference gives the direction and the invitation to walk through this in a way. Gives a tremendous amount of hope and healing in the process. I think that's one of the biggest barriers. One of the most practical barriers is that we don't make a space or time to do this.

And that's why your retreat is perfect because it, it offers both a space and a time to do this. You said that, uh, people are still finding the virtual retreats just as effective as the in-person retreats. Yeah, it, it, it amazes us at first. We thought there was gonna be a drop off, but time after time, some people do it together with other people watching it livestream other people on their own, in their, in their own home.

And, uh, over and over, they said, we could feel the presence of the holy spirit through the whole conference in our home. And we thought we'd be missing that by not being there with everybody. And some of 'em said, you know, I could turn it off and just stay with what I was going through and experience the healing there and then turn it back on in my own pace.

So it could be really advantageous to do it that way as well. Awesome. And you mentioned transformations that people have experienced. Is there one story that just shows it so clearly that you can think of that shows someone who maybe came to the retreat, they were in a really rough spot, stuck, broken, and then coming out, uh, of the retreat or maybe some time later using the tools that you gave them was able to experience a profound transformation.

Yeah, it's, it's so hard because there's hundreds in my mind and I I'll just try to wow. Think of, think of one. Uh, this, this one actually was a, was a, what touched me is she was an older woman who had been living with her pain for 60 some years. She was in her seventies and on the retreat, she began to face memories of brokenness in the family and then sexually abused by her brothers.

And she had never faced it her whole life. She came through that weekend, working through all of that, having an incredible healing. And she, she was like a little kid. Couldn't wait to share it with us. The joy that she felt. And then the, the outflow of that in terms of the healing with her family, the healing of her heart, the healing and her marriage.

I I'll give you another one. Cause this one just blew me away. Just blew me away. There was a priest who came to our priest event, had tremendous healing. First of all, he read bee big yield. He came to our priest event. He had tremendous healing. Personally just changed his priestly ministry. He sent two people on his staff to come for their healing, but also to lead a healing ministry in their church.

And the husband didn't want to come. He had been suffering with depression for 40 years. Had not been able to work, had been on every kind of medication, been hospitalized. Many times nothing had really made a difference. Huh? I, I talk about him in my book, real suffering, but I call him Patrick in that story, uh, not his real name, but he ends up having this incredible experience of an event that happened when he was 12.

He had never made the connection that that was the source of his depression. But once he had this experience in prayer and actually experienced his 12 year old self receive the healing and also come to a place of forgiving his father for what had happened. Wow. He was released, went back to got off medication with his doctor's approval.

After they found out that it was lasting healing. He ended up talking to his family, his family, his dad wanted him to pray with him. He went and prayed with his dad. His dad received healing of his childhood wounds. And the wounds of that had happened between them, the mother and the sister. The way, it was just like, this just kept spreading and spreading.

And now they're leading a healing ministry and spreading this to thousands of people, hundreds of people just, I could go on and on of stories like that, it just blows your mind of what God can do in somebody's life when they just open themselves and, and how the impact of that just spreads to so many others.

Incredible, incredible. Well, thank you for sharing those stories. And if someone wants to experience this, if they want to go to your retreats, uh, how do they sign up for them? How do they learn more about them? Uh, our website is John Paul II healing center. It's www JP I, I all small letters, healing center.org.

And then there's just a list of conferences that are coming up. Some of them we do that are open to the general public. Some are just for priests or religious or training or for men or for women. We do all kind of retreat conferences for all different parts of all different populations of people. Find the one that that's there for everybody, or if it's a women's retreat or a men's retreat.

and then, uh, you can just sign up online. You can either virtually, uh, live stream or to arrange to go there in person. Incredible. And I know you guys, once a year, I believe you do a five day, uh, intensive retreat down in Florida. Is that right? Yeah. That's actually coming up right as this is being broadcast.

Uh, we're starting that and it's, uh, this year it's, it's virtual. There're gonna be a live Q and a and prayer ministry available for everybody that signs up. Okay. It's called healing the whole person five day and they can get on our website. And even if it's started already, by the time this podcast comes out, it's available for two weeks.

So they can, they can still jump in and, and take part in that. And you'll have somebody praying with you. You also have an opportunity for question and answers. Each day of the week on the first week and then one day on the second week. Incredible. I, I know this is gonna be so helpful for so many people and, uh, I, you know, look forward myself.

I haven't had the chance to come on one, but I, I will be going on one ear retreat. So thank you so much in closing out Dr. Bob, uh, what words of encouragement would you give to, to the person listening right now who feels stuck, who feels broken, especially due to the trauma from their family, the trauma from their parents' marriage, uh, what, what encouragement would you give them?

So being stuck, which all of us who have had trauma understand that that's a wound of powerlessness. So the first thing is just to name it. And then there's also a wound of hopelessness, which is, you know, this didn't get a change. So just to, just to name that, if you're a person of faith, I would just turn that into prayer.

God, this is a place where I'm powerless and I feel hopeless and I can't change myself. I need your hope. If you're not a person of prayer, what I would say. To be able to find some place that you can feel safe enough just to share where you are, because the reason why you're stuck and you feel hopeless is because your heart's shut down in those places and you haven't felt safe enough to go there.

And so if you can find somebody, whether it's family, friend, mentor, spiritual director, therapist, whoever that might be, uh, just to begin to share where you are. You know, I used to have a saying when I was a therapist, uh, you can't get where you're going, unless you start where you are. And, and so it's just being where you are and having a safe place to be where you are and allowing the person or the holy spirit, whatever you can trust to help you move.

Because you can't do it yourself. Dr. Bob, thank you so much for your time through your wisdom and for all the work that you do, helping people to heal and feel whole again. Uh, amen. I, I can be more grateful to, to you and your work, and I look forward to, uh, yeah. Working with you in the future and sending people your way to, to really go through this sailing process with you and your team.

So thank you so much for your time. Yeah, Joey, I love what you're doing and it is such a need and really grateful to have you as a resource for people that we're working with too. So thank you. And one other thing, we have a podcast, Jake, Kim and I, as a therapist up in Canada. We're, it's a, every other week right now where hopefully gonna do it a week, but we talk through this stuff all the time.

So that's another place where people can go if they wanna get in, get involved in it. Awesome. What's the name of that podcast? It's re restore the glory podcast. Restore the glory podcast. Awesome. Are there any other resources that you wanted to mention before we sign off? I know, you know, you can, people can grab your books on Amazon, but anything else that you wanted to mention?

Uh, yeah, we have a lot of talks online also and workbooks and, uh, online courses. People won't be up there pretty soon that people can take and work through on their own. There's lots of other ministries that are doing great work too, like yours and things like Unbound, counter ministries, and just many others around also excellent guys.

We'll make sure to link to those resources, the podcast, the website that Dr. Bob mentioned. So you guys, uh, don't need to remember all of them again, Dr. Bob, thank you so much. Thank you for leading the way you're really that the trailblazer and a lot of this work. So we're happy to follow on your example.

Thanks so much for your time. Thank you, Jerry pleasure.

One huge takeaway that could have been easy to miss. Is this almost every problem? In society is rooted in the breakdown of the family. Wow. That is profound. Like this is it. This is the root cause. This is the core issue of our broken world. And so if we wanna fix our culture, we have to fix our families.

We have to heal from the trauma that we've experienced in our families. So we don't just pass that on. And that single point how this problem is at the root of almost every problem is the single reason that I started restored. I think we'd all agree that there are tons of problems in the world. And, and there's a lot of organizations out there who try to solve all these sorts of problems, right?

You have addictions to alcohol or porn. You have eating disorders. People who've been abused, homeless, starving kids. The list goes on like there's endless problems and all those issues, all those problems deserve our time. They deserve our attention. They deserve to be solved. They're super important in their serious stuff.

And so we need to solve those, but often they're not the root cause they're rather a symptom of a deeper problem. Now we need to treat the symptoms, but we have to treat the deeper problem. Cuz if we don't solve the deeper problem, then the symptomatic problems are just gonna continue. And so at restored we wanna.

The problem at a root level. And so if the brokenness in our families is at the root of almost all the problems in our world, then if we fix that root problem, then we'll begin to fix all those other issues as well. And so that's why AOR are working so hard to help young people from broken homes to heal and build virtue because we believe that strong virtuous individuals will go on and build strong marriages and strong marriages are of course, the foundation of good solid families and good solid families are what are gonna transform our communities, our nations, and ultimately our world as John Paul II said, as the family goes, so goes the nation.

And so goes the world in which we live. And so it's so important that all of us begin our own healing process. If we've been wounded, especially wounded within our families, like we need to heal that brokenness. We need to build virtue so that we can go on and fix our broken world. But we can't heal alone.

It's actually impossible. We need the help of others. And if you want some help, I highly recommend Dr. Bob's healing retreats. You can sign up or just learn more about them by going to his website@jptwohealingcenter.org, that's JP. And then the letter I, the letter I healing center.org, or you can just click on the link in the show notes.

Once you're on that webpage, go ahead and click on the schedule button in the menu. And then on the schedule page, you can just look through the events, find an event that works well for you. Like he mentioned, there are virtual events that you can attend and they're just as effective. He said, and when you're ready, you can just click the register now.

Now, if you're not ready for that, I recommend reading Dr. Bob's book be healed. You can click on the link in the show notes, or just search on Amazon or wherever you buy books, be healed. It's really a great resource and it's helped me personally. And so I recommend it to you. So by his book, be healed. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 39.

Again, restored ministry ministries, just singular.com/three nine. Thank you so much for listening. I really hope this episode has been helpful for you. And if it has, I invite you to subscribe and to share this podcast with someone, you know, who could use it. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#038: When Our Families Break Apart, We Feel Homeless | Malcolm MacDonald

When our families break apart, most of us feel homeless. We lose our sense of safety and belonging. As a result, we go through life looking for the family we never had. 

In this episode, Malcolm touches on those points while sharing his story. We also discuss:

• His struggles in his relationship with his parents

• How he’s healed his relationship with his dad

• The undeniable truth that hurt people hurt people

• What he did to cope with the pain and problems in his life in unhealthy ways

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Those of us who come from broken families often go through life, looking for the family that we never had. Looking for a place to call home a place where it feels safe, a place where we belong. In this episode, we discuss all of that and more with a man in his late twenties, as he shares his story about how he suffered from the trauma of his broken family.

He opens up about his relationship with his parents, how those relationships actually became strained, because he felt like he had to pick sides between the two of them. And he mentions how, when one parent would badmouth the other, it actually hurt his relationship with both parents, especially the one that was being talked about.

He shares how he's healed his relationship with his dad. It's really a beautiful story. And he said it was so key in order to forgive his dad, to understand his parents, their stories, and the pain and the problems that they've dealt with in their lives. And so by understanding that it really helped him to empathize and ultimately forgive his dad.

We talk about how hurt people hurt people. Often when there is a breakdown in a marriage or a family it's usually because one or both spouses. Are really hurting. Like they're really dealing with a lot of their own personal issues. And so that obviously plays out in the family and the lesson we can learn from that is if we don't deal with our brokenness, if you don't deal with your brokenness, you will pass it on to others.

It's scary to think of that, but it's so true. And we especially will pass it on to the people closest to us, our spouse, our future spouse and children. And so the best thing you can do for the people in your life that you love is to heal, to take ownership of the pain and the problems in your life to take ownership of your brokenness and to seek healing.

And if we don't the dangers that will end up repeating what we saw in our own families. And that happens far too often. That's exactly what we're trying to prevent here. It. My guess makes an excellent point about those of us who come from broken families often feel homeless, but since we have that deep need to belong and to feel safe, like I just mentioned a little bit ago, uh, we really need to find a place where we do belong and feel safe.

Cuz we have to feel that void. We can't just leave it empty. And he owns up to the unhealthy ways that he's coped with the pain and the problems in his life. He talks about his struggle with pornography, with drinking drugs, overworking. These were all attempts. He says to just feel good and to drown out the loneliness, depression, shame that he felt.

But as you'll hear it actually made him feel lonelier, more depressed and more ashamed, but thankfully his story doesn't end there. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 38 and before I introduce my guests, I wanted to make sure you know, that we are now accepting questions for the show.

That's right. You can submit your questions and we'll answer them. On the resort podcast, they'll either be answered by my guests or by me. Now you can ask anything that you want, maybe you feel stuck or unsure of how to handle the pain and the challenges from your parents' breakup. Maybe you're unsure of how to begin healing or continue down the path of healing.

If you've already began that process, maybe someone you love or you lead is going through their parents' divorce or separation, and you need to know how to help them, whatever your question will give you specific and actionable advice right here on the show to submit a question that's really easy. Just three steps.

Go to restored ministry.com/ask Joey that's one word again. Restored ministry.com/. Ask Joey, fill out the form, uh, with your question. And then as we're able, we'll answer your question on the show. We'd love to hear from you. My guest today is Malcolm McDonald and Malcolm has been working in the field of youth and young adult ministry.

For the past eight years. He has worked with various nonprofit organizations, including the culture project, net ministries, and other schools and churches across the country. Focus on fostering community and leading faith formation. When he isn't in a youth ministry setting, you can find him exploring different coffee shops, backpacking, outdoors, going to the gym, or quoting the office in his spare time.

He currently resides in Dallas, Texas. So let's jump into my conversation with Malcolm,

Malcolm. Welcome to the show, man. It's great to have you. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Let's dive in. How old were you? When your parents, uh, separated in divorce, I just turned 19 years old. So I think it was a couple months after that. Okay. So you were, were you away at college? Yeah, I was just graduating high school.

Just about to go to college pretty much when everything went down in terms of like the separation and divorce. So you were right in the midst of it. Tell us a little bit about what happened and how you reacted to it. Yeah, so I just finished graduation in high school and I think, you know, there's been a number of years that have kind of built up to, uh, this point where there was a lot of, you know, there was a lot of division already taking place between my parents and, uh, my sisters and things like that.

So, uh, the moment that I do remember everything kind of taking place, I actually don't remember the conversation there, there wasn't one conversation about separating. There was most likely a lot. There were a lot of times that it was talked about main mainly with my mom. Uh, it was around the time that. I didn't even really have much of a relationship with my dad at that point.

Um, we were going through a pretty rough patch and I really was just talking to my mom and she was, you know, talking about it pretty often about the separation. And, yeah, so I, I remember the day, I, I do remember the day of moving outta the house and it was during that time I was going through just all of the emotions, kind of just going through all the memories.

I was sitting in my, my living room couch and all these memories of just growing up in this house. I think at this point I was, I lived the majority of my life in this house. I think I moved in there when I was six. So all of the memories of the summers, the goofy moments, Christmas holidays. Yeah. We, we would do funny, like lip sync dances and stuff, my sisters and I, so that , that was great.

You know, I was always for like one Republic. I remember doing all these goofy dances and stuff. We were actually, we're a really goofy family, just in general. That's awesome. But yeah, just all these, like memories were just going through with my family, but especially. Remembering the moments of my parents, uh, loving one another.

Mm. You know, like my, my parents laughing, dancing in the kitchen. I remember one memory of my dad during one Christmas, he gave my mom her wedding room that was, uh, her wedding ring that was formed into a heart as a necklace, because it could no longer fit her ring finger. So he took it and for a couple months, and he was going to this dealer, uh, working away to, to give it back to her so that she can carry it with her.

And that was a really emotional moment, not just for my sisters and I watching this, you know, we were witnessing the love of our parents, but you know, all of these memories, I remember flooding through my head. I was sitting on the couch, thinking this isn't ever gonna be again. And thinking that this is the, the one time that we're gonna be walking away and those memories aren't gonna continue building.

So yeah, there was a lot of those memories and recollections that was kind of shattering if you will. Yeah. And, um, Yeah. So all, all I remember it was during this time. Yeah. My relationship with my dad didn't exist. We had a really rough patch, like I was saying, uh, we really didn't see eye to eye on a lot of things.

And so over time as my parents were separating my mom, I was growing. I was really close with my mom at the time. And it's kind of just turned into the point where the conversations with my mom, whether it was in the car or she was cooking food, uh, for me and my sisters, uh, those conversations that we used to have growing up really turned into, uh, saying really terrible things about my dad and that really, I think drove it fueled the anger and the hurts that I already had between my dad and I.

So I remember when I was sitting on this couch, going through all these memories, my dad was walking through the living room at one point to get to his, his bedroom. And just even just looking at him, I was super angry. Just fueling all this hatred towards him. And there's all this fear of him at the same time.

So I think at that point, I, all I wanted to do was run away. All these memories. I had kind of just flashed into anger and thought, okay, well we're gonna be leaving, so I don't wanna deal with any of this anymore. So that was a very painful day. Kind of just looking back on it. That was not fun. no, yeah, no, seriously, man.

There's so much there. And, and thank you for, for sharing and being vulnerable and coming on the show at all to, to share this, I know it isn't easy for a lot of people. I, I think you hit the nail in the head talking about memories. I think memories can be really painful for a lot of people who come from broken homes and, you know, thinking back like you, like you did, I can do the same thing with my family and thinking, oh, those good moments where I saw my parents together where things were peaceful, things were, were good.

Uh, they were happy and, and then, you know, things fell apart and thinking back there's like this, there's kind of two emotions that go with it. There's like this gratefulness, I think. That man. That was so good. And I'm grateful that we had that, but there's kind of this sting at the same time. It's like, man, I really wish that we had that now.

And I've noticed this with a lot of people who come from broken homes. People like us is that we're kind of all looking for the family that we lost or the family that we never had. Oh yeah. We all want, we have that like deep desire in us and it can be really painful at times. So I think it's, it's great for a lot of people listening to hear that, because often we don't give a lot of attention to, you know, how painful some memories can be.

And uh, often we may even just forget about things that were good in our parents' marriage and our family because of that, the pain kind of just overrides them, uh, as well. Yeah. So both of those things I think can be true. Yeah. You know, it kind of reminds me of, do you know the Pixar film inside out? Oh, I love that.

Yeah. It's a great movie. yeah, it's super great. If you're, if you're listening to this, I really recommend. Watching this movie, because it goes through period of this girl from Minnesota who moves across the country. And they're going through all these changes, you know, school, life changes, friends, change her parents, you know, they're going through things and she just feels so out of place, not belonging, but there's all these little characters in her head that are representing different emotions.

What is it like joy, there's joy, uh, sadness, fear, you know, there's like another one too, but I think Kager it's. Oh yeah. of course. That's right. the best character that literally the best character. Oh my gosh. Such a side of tension, but there's a scene where it's a fight between, uh, the, the girl is going through a tantrum and the they're sitting at a dinner table and the wife is trying to deal with it.

And she looks over and she taps her, uh, husband's foot and he looks up and it goes into his brain and it shows all of them kicking back, watching football. he's like, uh, I think, uh, the wife is trying to say something and then as they're like, as he starts dealing with his daughter, The anger starts taking over and there there's that one line where he is like, all right, I'm gonna put the foot down.

All right. Price, the red button 3, 2, 1. that's hilarious. Oh gosh. So yeah, so, so no, no, I think it's a, yeah. And, and just to clarify for people who haven't seen it, that basically you can see inside the minds of each of the family members and, and other people throughout the movie, so, and you can see kind of how their primary emotions, those five emotions play out.

So yeah, go ahead. So yeah. Yeah, no, that's great. So, but what, what I was thinking is that there's these different emotions that they experience and they come out in these different colors. And so there's core memories. And a lot of the movie kind of goes around the core memories that are, you know, things like belonging, uh, home, life sports, but they're all very specific.

And the core memories are the moments that have really formed them. And there's this moment where I've seen change. And oh gosh, I can't, I can't pin the point on which memory it was, but there was a, a core memory of remembering her parents, uh, picking her up after scoring a hockey goal. Uh, cuz she loves playing hockey.

And I think it was a moment that her family wasn't around when she wanted to, when she was trying to practice. And I think one of the parents wasn't there or no, sorry, one of her friends wasn't there, something like that, you know, and the core memory that represented joy turned into both sadness and joy and every time that she thought of that memory, uh, there was that pain and there was that sting and it was like this happy memory was like both painful and joyful, you know?

Wow. But it, it kinda reminds me of like what you're saying, saying Joey about, you know, those memories we have of our family before divorce were really wholesome and there's some of them that I, I will always remember. Being really beautiful memories with my family, that we were all like, whether it was like joking together, spending time, my family went camping a lot.

We went, I, I grew up in new England, so we went to New Hampshire or Vermont and we would just camp for the weekends and stuff. We would take family vacations in Canada, really, really beautiful, like Nova Scotia, prince Edward islands. And you know, a lot of those memories will look back and after the divorce, you know, it's, it's a happy memory, but it's a memory that you remember, you just can't experience again, the same way as, especially as a family.

So there is that, that longing in our hearts for wanting that belonging. And I think, you know, that's, that is what we deserve as, uh, just as humans that we belong to a family and that we're meant to be in relationship and communion, uh, with family. And I think family, you know, it's the core of our societies.

It's where we experience love. It's where we experience belonging and, uh, fulfillment. And it really is a pathway to knowing how to love, uh, how to love one, another, how to, to love if we are going to have families one day. So yeah, I think that movie, like it hits deep sometimes, you know, it's like, oh man, I relate to this movie so much inside out is it's great.

It's a great movie. Yeah. Yeah. You wouldn't think like an animated movie would be able to like, get you so emotional and like move you so much, but I can relate to, it was powerful movie. And, and I second, what Malcolm said, go ahead and watch that movie. If you haven't seen it, I think it will. It will be, uh, helpful for you.

I, uh, man, I can relate to so much of that. Like one memory. I remember my siblings and I would play hockey, uh, in, in our house, like inside the house, we were kind of crazy like that. And uh, so we we'd have these like little hockey sticks, um, and we'd use, uh, laundry baskets on like either side of a room and then we'd have like a little ball or little puck.

And so, uh, my dad would often play with us and, and it was so fun. Like we would just be like sliding around, just like shooting the ball, like as hard as we could at the net, it, it was so such a blast. And we also would play hockey in the basement. We had an unfinished basement, so we'd put on our roller blades and we'd just be like flying around in the basement.

That was like way too small to be playing hockey in and, uh, and it was just so fun. So, so I have those memories too, but then also, you know, the, the painful ones and it's just, there was such a fracture in my own. When, you know, those things stopped and it was really never the same after that. Uh, of course, and, and it's really, really difficult.

And, you know, I find myself missing that and, um, wanting to, you know, find a place where I can belong, because I think what often happens is we don't really feel safe even in our own families after this fracture happens. And it's, it's really sad. And I think a lot of it can be repaired, but man, there's always gonna be a scar there.

And yeah, another memory. I remember just a little being a little kid in like the back seat in my car seat and just, you know, driving home from family party or something and just feeling so safe in the presence of my dad and my mom. And, you know, when they broke apart, of course it was like the opposite.

So I can relate to, to everything that you went through. Yeah, definitely. And, sorry, remind me how many, uh, siblings do you have? Yeah, I'm actually one of six, so pretty big family. Oh, wow. Okay. That is. Quite a bit. And, uh, brothers and sisters combines. Yeah. So one only one girl. So , she's the princess and then, you know, the rest of us boys, so yeah.

Well, that's awesome. I'm just, I'm just trying to imagine you. Playing hockey in the basement with all of the boys and your sister. That is . That's great. That's so, oh yeah. You know? Yeah. I mean, my, my friend, one of my friends sees the same way too. He's got, I think he's similar. He's got six, sorry. He's got five brothers and one sister and they're all like super rough and stuff, but she's, she's a tough one too.

I think when you're one girl growing up in a households family with a bunch of boys, you know, she's gonna be pretty tough. Oh yeah. That's great. yeah, she's awesome. We love her. She's like, I think we've balanced her in a lot of ways. I'm sure we've driven her crazy, but you know, we kind of ground her in some ways from, you know, just to, she's able to really relate with our kind of roughness and she was right there with us playing a lot of sports a lot of the time.

Yeah. That makes sense. I was, I was the opposite. So I have, I have three sisters. And I'm the only guy in my house. So I think, yeah, just growing up, I started getting more like physically aggressive and I wanted to wrestle and, you know, I would take sticks and just, try to like play swords or do something dumb.

And my sisters would get so mad. They would not have it. And I remember my sister getting mad. And so that was one time I do re remember wrestling with her. And somehow we ended up in the bathroom and we both threw each other at the same time, landed on the toilet. Destroyed it like the toilet broke and I remember my dad like running up what's going on and we look at each other and then we start, you're like, oh, she did it.

She broke the toilet. no Malcolm broke the toilet. so that was, oh my gosh. So funny, but yeah, you know, it's so funny, even in those moments of, you know, getting in trouble and doing really crazy things in the house, uh, there was even, yeah, even when we got in trouble, there was still a moment of, of that belonging and, and safety that you're talking about.

And I remember taking a lot of family trips in the, the car. Uh, we would have an, a passenger van, and even though there was only four of us, but we just wanted the space and things like that. Yeah. Those it's funny how car rides and family trips, you actually feel super safe and it's really, you have like a lot of good memories, just like being in a car, cuz you're spending a lot of time together.

You're not like having to say anything, but. Yeah. I just remember that being, like you're saying there was, there was the comfort to that and there was definitely a lot of safety, but yeah, after, after experiencing divorce and the family and the separation. Yeah. You just can't that, that's something you just can't get back to.

And there's not like a, I like how you said there's not like a place you can feel like you have like a belonging again, just because it's not, it's not that family life. So I, yeah, after the separation and divorce, I became a missionary for this nonprofit organization and they pretty much just sent out all these young adults and groups across the country for about nine months going to different churches and schools.

And you're working with a lot of young people, usually from the ages of sixth, sixth grade to graduating seniors in high school. And there was those moments of getting ready for Christmas break. We get like two weeks off. And during the summertime, there's maybe like two, two months that you got off. Yeah, that was, that was really painful for me, cuz that was pretty fresh coming from a divorced family and still wrestling with the reality of what was going on.

And so everyone's talking about, oh, I'm gonna do this with my family. We're we do this every Christmas and I'm just REM I'm just sitting here thinking I'm not gonna have any of that. I don't have that. And feeling like I was almost like homeless I felt almost homeless in a way. Wow. And that's when I would just call or I would talk to one of my close friends and say, Hey, do you mind if I just hang out for like a couple weeks, whatever for Christmas.

And I, I would just spend time with other friends and their families and thinking I could run away from. The feeling of belonging. You think that if you're not going back home, you don't have to feel it, but then when you're surrounded by other people, other families that you don't even really know, then it's also kind of painful mm.

Yeah. There is that like the importance of family is there is that safety and belonging you experience, but as someone from a divorce family, that's something you can't really experience, uh, in the same way. Yeah, no, I'm I'm with you there. And so again, kind like we were saying before, experiencing that in another family can be really beautiful and really healing, but at the same time it can be painful and yeah, that, that you said it really well feeling homeless.

That's super interesting. How else did you see, uh, your parents divorce affect you in the years that followed? Yeah. Well, that's a, that's a great question. Well, you definitely. Are affected whether you want to admit it or not. I think in the first couple years, I would just think like, oh, I can deal with this.

You know, this isn't going to really affect me. And then what I ended up doing was repressing those feelings and those emotions. And so whenever, whenever I was meeting people and getting to know new friends and, and things like that, eventually the question would be asked and I would always dread it when they ask.

So how, like, who's like your family what's like your family, like, and I would just dismiss it by striking it off and just giving like a two sentence answer and then trying to go into another subject mm-hmm cause I could feel like this, like welling up inside of all these deep emotions of, of like anger and sadness.

And I didn't wanna deal with those feelings. I'm also, especially as, as a man, it's, it's harder expressing my emotions and I feel like it. It looks almost like a, a weakness to kind of get emotional in front of other people. So I would always, you know, avoid the topic, not really want to talk about my family.

And if I did, like eventually I started opening up to a couple friends and I would really get super angry. I would, I remember this one time. I think it was getting close to, oh man, what was it? I, I just talked about it for a while. and I got really angry and I went down into the basement. I didn't know what to do, but I just wanted to just smash a bunch of things.

mm-hmm and I had this, why can't I think of, I had a punching bag that was hung up in this garage. Uh, I was living in Seattle at the time working at a, a church and, uh, I took some, my friend's boxing gloves, and I just kept punching that. Actually I took the gloves off, cuz I wanted to feel the pain in my hands and just trying to get this pain out of my system and this anger out.

And I punched that bag until my hands. Like my knuckles started bleeding a little bit and started cutting open some. Some of the, the skin. Wow. And even afterwards, I would just, I think that's when I realized I have a lot of deep emotions and it is really affecting me. And I, I think in that first year too, was probably the most painful, especially because I had a bad relationship with my dad and I avoided phone calls from my mom, cuz it would end up turning into conversations about saying bad things about my dad.

Didn't talk to my dad for the first two years. I totally shut him out of my life. And I would wake up with nightmares pretty often. I, I think it was happening at least on a weekly basis, but I remember just having all these nightmares of my dad, trying to chase me and trying to kill me. And I just thought, wow, this is really violent.

And this is, uh, I would just wake up in sweats and over time, it, it did subside the more I talked about it, but a lot of the pain, it was most painful when I held it in and when I didn't acknowledge it. And so that really, you know, I think it did affect me in those ways, uh, at least for the first couple years.

So there was a lot of repressing feelings and memories and avoiding conversations. Yeah. There was a point when I realized I actually do need to acknowledge these feelings and I need to find a way to, to deal with them. At least in a healthy way. You know, I think a lot of us it's, it's easy to find really unhealthy ways to deal with it, but that does absolutely nothing it actually makes it worth dealing in an unhealthy way.

I would agree. It just adds more problems and, and often more pain into our lives. I know those absolutely true. In my case, uh, speaking about those unhealthy ways that we have to fall into, what were some of those for you, aside from the things that you mentioned the first few months? Yeah, I, I grew actually even leading up to the divorce.

It, it wasn't even when the divorce happens, but I think in the midst of seeing my parents sleeping in different rooms, you know, seeing like arguments, taking place, you know, myself, my sisters being dragged. Conversations with parents about the other parent, which I think happens to I've I've heard of others that have experienced those things as well.

Oh's so common puts you into, oh yeah. It puts you into such a awkward position. You don't know how to deal with it because you love both your parents and it just doesn't make sense. But yeah, I, I grew into an addiction with pornography, uh, masturbation, I think I wanted to just escape reality and I was trying to fulfill that feeling of belonging and, and wanting to be loved.

And the divorce really kind of started messing a lot with those thoughts and those feelings. Um, I also gave, started giving. Peer pressure a lot more. After a few months after, you know, graduation, when my parents were separating, I was working in a job as a salesman I was selling a kitchen. I was so crazy.

Nice. Um, yeah, that was actually a lot of fun. I really enjoyed that. That was great, but that's awesome. I worked probably 70 hours a week. It was an unhealthy amount, but I just tried finding ways to get out of my home. And I started giving into a lot of peer pressure with the people I was working with. So I started drinking, going to parties and I started smoking marijuana.

Yeah, I think at one point I got my wisdom teeth taken out, which was very painful. I was given a prescription, uh, for oxycont and, uh, started using that, uh, more, I, I started taking more than the recommended amounts, you know, I, as it was starting to like thin out I, I, I was taking it as, yeah. I was trying to thin it out.

So I have more of it as much as I can for the longer period of time. But I was just trying to find ways to just feel good and not experience the loneliness, the sadness, the depression that I was going through. And it wasn't helping because afterwards you'd feel more lonely and more depressed and more ashamed of yourself.

Really. And yeah, I was just trying to find different ways of ex escaping the pain. And in the end it was creating a vicious cycle. Repeating itself, like a never ending cycle that just wouldn't ends in. I, I think it really, like when I, it was a couple months after that I started going to, uh, I joined the missionary organization and that actually really helped myself get out of that mess that I was finding myself in.

Wow. Yeah. I can relate on so many levels. You know, people who know my story know that I, uh, you know, struggled with pornography and that was such a, a curse and a poison in my life. And man, yeah, it it's like it's such a vicious cycle. You said that. It's like we're in a hole and we're trying to get out the hole by digging the hole deeper.

It's like, well, it's not gonna work. You need to go the other way. And, uh, it, it just, again, leads in more pain and more problems. And so we just, our left kind of feeling stuck and left feeling pretty hopeless. Like, you know what now, like I've already kinda started down this road. I'm already addicted to this or that.

And. I don't think I there's any way that I could beat it. And man, how debilitating is that? Yeah, no that's so for real. Yeah. So you, so you experienced those things as well then? Yeah. Yeah. And no, for some reason I didn't go down the road of, of drinking and drugs. Um, thankfully I, I, that was a grace because alcoholism does run in my family.

I don't know how I didn't get into that, to be honest with you, but definitely, yeah, the porn, the masturbation, things like that. I definitely struggled there and that was, that was my drug of choice, so to speak. And that was the way that I numbed pain. And, uh, yeah, it really, uh, was so helpful to hear the truth about human sexuality and, you know, Jason Everett has been such a mentor to me over the years and I know, I know you love him too.

And it's uh, yeah, it, it was so helpful to. His message of how, you know, porn is really the opposite of love. It's using another person for your own pleasure and, uh, it will destroys your ability to love. It destroys your ability to one day, have a, a healthy marriage, which I think we all want. And so, yeah, thankfully I was able to get out of that, um, similar to you and start learning to deal with the stress, the pain and the problems in life and in healthier ways.

So I wanna, I wanna go there, what changed and like, what are maybe two, three things that, that have helped you cope in healthy ways and helped you heal in those years that followed joining? Yeah. Joining the missionary organization was a huge game changer in my life. I, I, like I mentioned earlier, we were working with a lot of teens in different parts in the country.

And a lot of these young people I was encountering were also going through a lot of their own issues and struggles. There was a lot of family issues, actually that I, I noticed with the teen that I was working with. And I remember one in particular, I was in Vegas back in 2013. And, uh, a lot of these teens that I was working with came from, yeah, some really bad families, uh, a lot of gang violence.

There was a lot of family abuse. A lot of the, I was working. I remember I was working, especially with a bunch of 13 year olds. And I thought I had nothing in common with these teens until a lot of them started opening up and sharing about their struggles with their relationship with their father and were asking me questions about that.

And that was during a time that I was also trying to deal with that on my own. And so I was, uh, giving them some advice and things like that, and just really like sharing, you know, the pains and the struggles of what I was experiencing. And these teens man, they were opening up and, you know, there was a lot of change that I saw over the course of the time that I was working with them.

And so that, that was really healing for me. You know, sharing about your pains and your struggles, you, a lot of the times, I think we, we think that I'm only, I'm the only one that's struggling with this. I'm the only one that is experiencing this loneliness, this pain, this depression there's everyone else has things that are perfect in their life.

But no, I'm I'm I see. A lot of people have struggles and a lot of pain that they go through, especially, especially in the, in terms of families. So a lot of that became a, a path of healing for me, was, was helping others that were also going through family issues and especially in the divorce and relationships with parents, uh, who were experiencing divorce.

Yeah. So that was, that was one way that I was able to. Cope with it. And, you know, even over, down the line, you know, I I've been working, uh, I, I work as a youth minister at a church here in, in Dallas, Texas, and yeah, I think this has really been huge for me. It's so life giving be able to help foster community, uh, for young adults, for young people that are in high school and middle school.

And there's, there's something about that feeling of belonging. That's really important to me. That's kind of stuck with me. I think even after experiencing the loss of belonging from my family life, you know, there, there was something that I felt in myself wanting to, to create a place that was like a, like a second home for those that either want a sec, that wants a second home or don't have that feeling of that placing of a home life.

Mm-hmm . Wow. So that's, uh, been really huge for me. Like when you start actually helping people, I I've noticed that's really been a huge path for healing. I think another, another way that I've been able to deal with it, you know, I did. Over time. Yeah. I, I think acknowledging my pain, talking about it with those that I trusted started, uh, seeking professional help.

A lot of times professional help is given this bad rep that it's only for those that are completely compromised as human persons. That it's only for like, I, I think we would almost considerate something for those that are really mentally ill mm-hmm , but I. Anyone can experience healing when it comes to seeking professional help, because they know how to, you know, they're really reflective.

They ask really good questions and it's just a really safe place to talk about what you're going through without feeling like you're gonna be judged, that you're gonna be looked differently and they provide really great practical. They give a lot of practical advice and steps on your path for healing.

And that's something that I've been able to experience and continue seeking. So yeah, those are some, uh, some really good ways that have been good for me. That's given a healthy avenue. For experiencing, uh, healing. That's amazing. No, and all the, all those are great pieces of advice for anyone listening, especially anyone who's feeling kinda lost.

Who's looking around and saying, man, my family pretty messed up. And a lot of the stuff that's happened and pretty pain, it's been pretty painful for me. I, I think you nailed that Malcolm, when you said really the first step is just acknowledging, like the awareness factor starting with that. And then from there, you know, you could do, I think all those things that you said where you're talking with other people.

Going to get professional help you're uh, maybe even trying to reach out and help people who might be in a little bit of a worse spot than you are. I know that was really helpful for me growing up, because I dealt with a lot of things. You know, I dealt with anxiety, I dealt with depression at different points.

I went through a phase, especially in high school, just kind of pulling away from people, dealing with loneliness. And I ended up, yeah, just kind of becoming this hermit, like someone who did, you know, go out and spend time with friends. I still did some things like, you know, I was an athlete, so I was playing sports, but I just really kinda shut off my heart to other people.

And man, that will just hold you back in life. If you do that, especially when you're dealing with, with these serious wounds and mm-hmm I think often we don't. Give enough, um, validation to people who come from broken homes for one reason or another, we kind of just expect people like us to just kind of suck it up and move on with life.

It's like, okay. Deal with it and get on. Like, there's a lot of people who go through this. Um, they seem to be fine. And so you should be fine too. Um, but what we're learning through the research and through stories and through like this ministry is that's not true. Like this stuff it can be, and usually is very traumatic and we need to heal in a very serious way.

And if we don't the danger is that one we're gonna go and repeat it ourselves. Or, you know, we're just gonna hurt people or we're gonna, you know, do the things that you and I did Malcolm, are we getting these really bad habits? And then our lives just become miserable and nobody wants that. So, yeah. Yeah.

I, I love, I love your advice. I love what you said. Uh, I'm curious in your relationships going there. Yeah. What, what was that like? How did you see, uh, the effects of your parents' divorce affect your, your dating relationships and, um, and. Yeah. You know, that's such a, yeah, that's such a good thing to talk about.

And I think we don't really think how it affects us. When we walk into relationships, I was dealing with a lot of, a lot of fear of when there were fights that would break out or, or just like arguments that this would, this would trigger for me a lot of fear that this person would walk away from me. And I think after experiencing my parents walking away from each other, then it's almost a translation of, well, this is, I, I think a lot of it's kind of just matched it as a reality of, of relationships.

So yeah, I experienced a lot of, a lot of fear that things would end. I didn't really have a lot of hope that relationships could work. And especially when there were arguments that that would break out. So that was something that really did. My relationships that I, that I have been in, in the past, it's really, that's really, it.

It's taken a lot of reminding myself that that's not always the case. And if that person like really does truly care for you, they're not gonna walk away. Like love is takes work and takes a lot of, uh, forgiveness too. I think forgiveness is one of the most important things. And looking back in my parents' marriage, there, wasn't a two way street on forgiveness and that's really what is needed as a, as a basis.

Just healing, I think. And, and recognizing we, we are not perfect human beings, you know, we have weaknesses, we fail other people mm-hmm , but it's really just that mercy by forgiving one another. That makes a huge difference. I, I, I think that has been a big lesson for me. Those, my family struggle with forgiveness, which makes sense.

You know, you come from a divorced family and yeah, there, there needs to be forgiveness on the basis for there to. Improvements in growing closer relationships. So does that answer your question for yeah, no, no, absolutely. So I, man, and people are affected in different ways in their relationships. One of the things that I've seen as a common trend is that that fear that you mentioned holds us back from truly loving fully.

We, we love at arm's length or maybe we don't even love to begin with. And that prevents us from experiencing the intimacy that we all long. And so we're like robbed of this joy of this really beautiful thing of being vulnerable to someone who, you know, is gonna love you. And who's gonna be there for you through anything, you know, of course that's made it more real in a marriage than a, a dating relationship.

Cuz of course you're figuring out if it's the right fit at that point. But yeah, it's, uh, I, I think there's some real, real barriers there and about forgiveness. That's an excellent point. I think it's so necessary in broken homes because there's been so much hurt and I wanted to go back to something you said that you saw in your family and especially.

Talk about this because there might be a parents listening right now. And parents, if you're listening to this, one of the things we, I just want you to know is that badmouthing your spouse in front of your kids is just so harmful. Like Malcolm said it so well, uh, how it affected him and the negative effects that it had on his relationship with his dad.

You know, it obviously wasn't the entire thing, but it played a big role. And so, you know, if you needed to get things out, if you need to vent, you know, go to go to a sibling, go to an aunt, an uncle, a pastor, or counselor, your attorney, if you have to, but don't pull your kids into it. And there there's can be a tough balance when maybe you need to tell your kids some painful and true things about your spouse, but always take very, very much time and care and try to figure out, use discretion and thinking, do they really need to know this because the bad mouthing can be so damaging.

Would you add anything to that? No, I think that's really great. As a teenager, when I was going through that, I was in such a, a vulnerable place already dealing with the thought of. Separation of divorce. And I, I love, I love my parents, uh, even today, even though there's differences I have in, and there's still healing, that's taking place between my parents.

Yeah. I, I, I do see that, uh, that did affect me. Uh, I remember just thinking as my mom, uh, was sharing a lot of things about my dad, about what she was going through and the, the things, the bad things that she was talking about. My dad that I, I just didn't think was that necessary. Yeah. That really did hurt my relationship with not only with my dad, but also with my mom.

And it changed our relationship where I, I felt like I was kind of just taking her burdens as a mother and as a wife. And it just didn't feel right. It. It felt weird. yeah. I don't know if that's the right way of saying it feels weird, but yeah, it, it definitely like, I mean, it made me avoid calls with my mom.

It, it, it hurt my relationship with her. And yeah, I, I think as a parent, you know, those, those are effects that, that I have experienced that I've heard other, uh, other friends who have gone through divorce, experiencing different things. So the things that you, you do say to your children do hold a lot of weight for your relationship.

It does. Yeah, it is a very sensitive thing. Going through a divorce as a child, as a teenager, growing up, you're already dealing with your family going in different directions, your, your siblings, by going in different directions that not only does it affect your relationship with your, with your parents, but your siblings too.

It's, uh, very, very different. So words hold a lot of. As a parent, I think, yeah, I can agree more and it's difficult cuz the parents are really hurting and they need a place to talk about those things. And often the kids are just like the most available. They trust them. And so they just turn to us, but it can be, it can be so damaging.

I, uh, I want to go back to something you said too about the brokenness in your family prior to the divorce. I know a lot of times just the lingo that we use when we talk about divorce, uh, it is a traumatic event. It is something that's serious. It is kind of the, the summit or the pinnacle of a lot of bad things that happened before it.

But it's not like that other bad stuff. Wasn't there. It's not like this random event happened that just like went off like an Adam bomb. It's like, oh, where did that come from? It's like a lot of times there's just been so much brokenness, so much pain in the family for years and years and years. It just finally got to that point where, you know, the parents broke apart and there is something to say.

It is a very distinct and painful thing when your parents actually separate when they get divorced. But that doesn't mean that. There isn't a lot of trauma that happens within the family. Even if parents do sit together, but things are really broken. Right? Yeah. That's, that's so true. Just thinking about the events that have led up to it.

Yeah. I, I remember seeing friends going through divorce when I was in middle school, uh, even entering into high school a little bit and just thinking, oh, that's not gonna happen. But then, you know, after a couple years you see a lot of small things happen and, uh, yeah, there's a, there's so much brokenness, uh, that takes place over time.

Yeah. You know, like parents, like there's small steps like parents sleeping in different beds, you know, fights breaking out more and more often having those conversations with your siblings and your parents and just seeing events going down. I remember my parents going through a fight during Thanksgiving probably.

A year and a half before we'd gone through the separation and my grandparents were there and my parents were fighting and they were ignoring each other. And I could see my grandparents trying to hold it together. And it was . It was so awkward. Mm-hmm . And I remember my, my younger sister, Olivia, she didn't understand social cues very well.

Growing up, she just had a funny way of just saying things exactly as they are, that you wouldn't necessarily say in a situation. But I remember there was a really awkward moment of this silence and my sister said, Why is everyone so awkward?

I love it. I remember thinking like, why'd you have to say that out loud. Now I want to leave. we're all feeling it. We're all thinking. You don't need to say it, but we don't wanna admit that, you know, so gosh, it's, uh, it's so funny. Yeah. They're just like a lot of moments that kind of build up, but, you know, there was something like you said earlier, that kind of, I, I think who said this, someone said hurt people, hurt people.

Hmm. And I really believe that like, if, if you're broken and you don't go on a path of healing, you're going to hurt other people without even realizing it, it like, like you're saying like in relationships and stuff, the ways that it could affect other people is the lack of, of vulnerability with either, you know, whether it's like someone you're dating or if it's, if it's your spouse, that brokenness is going to tie down into other parts of your, your relationship.

So, yeah, I think in, in marriages, you. So some of the divorce that I've, that I've heard of, you know, I, I could see from E even, just from my perspective and my family, my, my parents were broken. My, my mom growing up, had a lot of abuse in her life, growing up from her family. And that really affected the marriage, uh, between my parents and myself growing up, my mom went to the hospital lot as a, when I was middle school, she was dealing with PTSD.

Um, she was in the hospital for a long period of time. Yeah. And that was coming from the trauma that she experienced. And, uh, that really did affect, uh, her relationship with my dad, obviously us as a, as a family, uh, my dad had a lot of things that happened in his family that he was dealing with that gave, he, he dealt with a lot of anger and took it out on us kids.

I didn't really understand at the time, but I thought, wow, why does my dad hate me so much? But , I didn't realize he was actually going through a lot. And it was coming out into the family. So hurt people, hurt people and, you know, divorce that take place, you know, that that could be. In every case, but that could be a result of hurt.

People hurt hurting people. So healing is so important, you know, like, yeah, acknowledging that you're in pain. If you don't acknowledge it, it's going to come out on someone yeah. Uh, or something or affect you personally. So it, it's not a one moment thing of a divorce. It's a multitude of steps and it's a many broken pieces that eventually break the whole, the whole thing, unless you start dealing with it, unless you start acknowledging that, that pain and wanting to see if there is like a way to heal from it.

Yeah. That's sorry. I just wanna, you ran ramble base on what you were saying, but you know, I, I just feel like that's, you know, that's what it. No that's super relevant. And I, yeah, I, I would say, you know, you said maybe not in every case, I would almost be in every case. I, we would, well, we would say almost always, because based on the stories we've heard at restored and the people we work with, the research we've seen, uh, there, there's just a lot of brokenness that typically runs through.

Generations, but especially in the parents' lives. And a lot of times the things that surface the problems that surface in the marriage are often because of unresolved things, uh, at some point in the past. So you hit the now in the head, you know, hurt people, hurt people. Totally true. And that's one of the reasons that we exist at all.

Our vision is to help, uh, reverse the cycle of divorce by helping young people heal and build virtue, because if we can heal and build virtue, we'll be these strong, healthy individuals. And then we're gonna go into our relationships and we'll build strong marriages and strong marriages, of course, of the foundation of good.

Healthy families and good, healthy families are really what are, what's gonna transform our culture from a culture that's just so broken and lost the one that's living, uh, a happy, meaningful, uh, existence. And so it, you you've said it so well, we can't overstate healing a lot of times can be thought of as this just kind of like nice and unnecessary thing, if you have time for it.

Cool. Do it. Um, but what we're saying here is like, if you don't do it, the stakes are really high. Like you may end up repeating exactly what you saw in your own family. I don't say that's to scare you, but that's just what the research shows and that's just what we've seen. And so now you I'm really glad you brought that up.

Yeah. Oh definitely. You know, you gotta gotta find a way to heal, you know, gotta acknowledge it. It's a lot more painful, I think not acknowledging it. And you just can't escape pain. That's really what it is. And you have to face that pain and it may feel uncomfortable and may feel scary wanting to just go through it and then face.

But from what we see, you know, what you're talking about, what I was going through and continue healing from is, you know, there could be a lot more pain. There could be a lot more pain and, and hurt in the end mm-hmm but we gotta go through it, you know, but it's worth it. It's so worth it because there's so much hope.

There's so much hope. I think when you can start that process. Yeah, absolutely. And speaking of hope, how, how is your life different now that you've, you know, gone through some of the healing process, you've made some progress now. I'm not saying that, you know, you're, you're done or your life is perfect at this point, but, but you have made a lot of progress.

I'm just curious. How does your life look different now? Yeah, so I, I definitely have a lot of growth. I think in the last few years, I think about two years after I went through the divorce in my family and I was still, uh, working with a nonprofit organization on my own. I really felt this pulling to, to talk to my dad again.

Mm, because there, there was still like a longing for, you know, that reconciliation, but it, it, I mean, it took a lot of courage to get to that point. What, what I recognized that I, yeah, that really helped me was forgiving my parents. And that's incredibly difficult to do because you see all the, the hurt and the pain that you, you go through, that your sisters go through.

And, and so I, it's not uncommon to blame your parents for the divorce and the separation in your family. Mm-hmm anyways, I sent an email to my dad I couldn't, I, I didn't wanna call him, you know, whatever. And I said, Hey, do you mind if we can have a talk? And so I wrote down a list on my, in my journal of all the things that he failed at.

And I, I was so ready to be like, all right, dad, you know, you were terrible at this and this and this , it would really bad. Yeah, I know. So I, I got with him. I didn't actually. Yeah, that was, that was very scary. Just, I, I was very afraid of him being angry at me being super upset at me. So when I got on the call, I, I had all these thoughts going through my head and I don't know how it happens, but you know, I, after a couple minutes of saying hi and doing a little bit of small talk, I ended up asking my dad to forgive me.

And I, I just started just apologizing for the failure as a son. And this was not how I, I was expecting it to go. But yeah, I, I ended up apologizing and yeah, I, I think I, yeah, I got pretty emotional and my dad started apologizing for all the ways that he's filled me as a father. Mm-hmm I think it ended up being a two hour discussion with him and yeah, I think it, by the end, we were both crying, you know, ever since then, there's been a lot of healing.

In my relationship with my dad and it, it was sort of a struggle, you know, here and there. And we definitely had a couple fallbacks and, you know, a couple steps forward. But at this point in my life, I probably talked to him multiple times a week. I, I feel very comfortable going back home. I, I started going back home.

I, I think about two or three years after. And so I, I actually just got back home from Christmas. Uh, I went back to visit him and I talked to one of my sisters. So yeah, I, I think that has been really huge. And when it comes to my mom, uh, we still have a lot of struggle. I, I still have some struggle with, with my mother.

but I it's, it's a constant. Yeah. I just think I I've taken a lot to try to forgive her and my heart. And I've, I've recognized over the years, she's gone through a lot in her own life, through her own childhood traumas. So mm-hmm, , I think that's made it a, there there's things I learned about her and her past life that I didn't recognize that I, I didn't know that she had gone through.

Yeah. And, and that really helped me to put in, put into perspective kind of the repercussions that have taken place over the years that ended in the divorce. So I, I think forgiveness is very difficult, but I, I think that's been really huge for me was. Just learning to forgive my parents and taking that step forward, especially in the relationship with my father, that's profound that you went first.

Like you didn't really plan on it, but when you, once you got on that phone call and that conversation with your dad, you decided that there were certain things that, you know, you felt better, you could have done better at. And you decided to kind of be the one who went first, who, who was vulnerable to start with, and then that opened up your dad's heart.

And that helped him to, you know, ask for forgiveness as well, which that's amazing because I think often if you were to go into that conversation and say, these are all the things you screwed up on, I would imagine, I know I would feel this way, him getting very defensive and perhaps, you know, maybe it would've started an argument, some sort of a conflict, but the fact that you went in there and you just shared your failings, it sounds like it opened him up to, to do the same.

Yeah. You know, you're definitely right. I went into that conversation thinking, and I think a lot of us have this. They struggle as well, thinking that if they only know what they failed at, I can help them see what they're failing in to resolve the issue. Mm. You know, like you're saying that actually it puts up a lot of defenses, uh, for the other person because you're attacking them.

Yeah. And I honestly don't know how I got to that point where I was able to do that, but it, it took a lot of courage. It's very vulnerable, you know, like you're saying, because there, you open up yourself in a way where you don't know how they're going to react, and that's a scary, that's a scary jump to take, but in the end it was, it was the best thing I could have done, I think in that situation.

And you know, we've, we've gone really far ahead since that time. That's awesome. Yeah. I, that's a great point about, you don't know how they're gonna react. He could have reacted really poorly, you know, not, not to say your dad's like a bad person or anything, but that is one possibility when you approach a person with a problem or talking about something that's really difficult that they may not react well.

And so it's amazing that he reacted well. And I bet that yeah. Was extremely healing for, for your relationship. It sounds like it was. And I also wanted to recognize that you, yeah, you sound like a pro at negotiation in a lot of ways. Cuz some of the principles you use are from basically people who are really good at negotiation are really good at having difficult conversations.

And one of them is whenever you go into a conversation to talk about something difficult, it's really, really, really important to talk about it from your perspective, saying things like I feel instead of saying like you, you, you, and because it, it for everyone listening, you know, if you're need to have a difficult conversation with anyone, but especially with your parents, if you go in and say.

You know, I feel that the way that you talk about mom, the way that you talk about dad, uh, it, it makes me feel this way. Then it's all about you. It's not about them necessarily. Like obviously their actions are making you feel a certain way, but you're not pointing at them, condemning them because of what they're doing.

You know, if, uh, if anyone who's listening here wants to figure out how to go into a, a difficult conversation that has high emotions. Uh, there's just a shameless plugin for a book called crucial conversations. Mm. That was put together by a lot of just different high, like business consultations, uh, and, and higher upper management.

And it's been really useful for both professional and all conversations. I'm also not being endorsed by crucial conversations, but if they do hear this, uh, you can definitely pay me because , I think it's worth it. so, uh, I love it. Yeah. I think it's very important to know how to, to go through those conversations.

I didn't know how to do it at the time. That was really. That, that was a very lucky, I think that that situation rolled out as it did. Yeah, no, I think there's a lot of great lessons in it. And the, the other thing you said about your mom, understanding her background, understanding her store, understanding kind of the ways that she's been harmed over the years made you a lot more compassionate to her, a lot more empathetic to her.

And you know, like you said, there's still room to grow there, still room to heal. But I, I imagine that that has helped so much, uh, like you mentioned to, to just understand her, her background, her struggles, her story. Yeah. I think it's really important to know the other person's perspective and in the moment in the, when, when it's like a heated moment and all these deep emotions start coming out, it, it gets very difficult to think outside of what you're feeling.

and it's easy to forget that that other person has their own story, their own feelings, uh, their own perspective that is different than yours and that most of the time we all think it's yeah, we all have different perspectives and it makes it much easier when you come to a better understanding. So for example, you know, I think a lot of us recently, a lot of movies have been coming out, showing these villains that have actually had a deeper story on Netflix Cobra.

Kai's. Kind of like one of the hits where it's the bully from karate kid. And you just think he's just like this, this punk, this bully, but then you know, this, this Mo this, uh, series comes out and you actually start to have this sympathy for him because you didn't realize how much he went through. And he had his own pains and struggles, and you're like, oh man, this guy's actually like, not that bad.

He's actually pretty good. Yeah. And I think that, I think there's some truth to that. I think no one is coming into the situation, uh, situation as a, as a culprit, but everyone has their own story. They have their own struggles, their own brokenness. And, uh, it makes it much easier to forgive the other person when you recognize that they've gone through things as well.

It doesn't make the situation any better, but it, I think it definitely helps to forgive. And, and I think that is the first step is, is to forgive in the. Love it. I couldn't agree more about the movies you mentioned. I I'm a big, uh, Christopher Nolan fan for those who don't know Christopher Nolan, he's the director who, uh, made the Batman movies, Batman trilogy, like Batman begins the dark night, dark neck rises, inception, memento.

You know, all these movies that are just like really thought provoking. One of the things that he says when it comes to villains is that people who villains, who are more relatable, um, in a way are more terrify. Because we can almost see ourselves in them in a way. And I think that's very true in life that a lot of times we kind of, yeah.

Villainize people or push them off to the side thinking, oh, then they're so bad. They're so evil. They're so, um, the things that they do are so wrong, but in many ways, it's like, well, what's the difference between me and them. And the honest truth is that there's actually not too much of a difference. Like they're just maybe further down the path that one day I could potentially go down if I'm not careful.

So I think, uh, yeah, I know Christopher Nolan, like specifically tries to kind of show that part of villains, humanize them in a way and not just say there's not just these crazy people they've, you know, been hurt. They've been through a lot, they've gone down the wrong path, for sure. Not making light of that.

Um, but they're not totally different than you and me. Wow. That is very terrifying. I did not, I did not hear that before, but he definitely does a good job of showing that in his movies. Absolutely. But welcome. Uh, was there anything else you wanted to add about kinda how your life is different now? How it looks different now, even though of course you're still in the process of healing.

Yeah. You know, I'm definitely taking some steps to continue, uh, growing in myself and, and continue the healing process. So yeah, I'm, I'm seeing, I'm looking for a therapist. Yeah. I, I just recognize there's some of those deeper wounds that I need to take care of in order to continue the process of healing, continue the process of, you know, forgiveness with my parents and hopefully one day, uh, have that reconciliation with my, my mother.

So, uh, definitely there's still, uh, yeah, there's still some things that I, that I go through, but I think for the most part, I feel much more peace with myself. I'm really happy where I am in my life. I can. Back in my family, more objectively without a lot of deeper emotions that used to bother me quite a bit.

But I, I do feel like I live in a lot more freedom than I did in the past where I felt enslaved by my emotions and my anger. But I, at this point I feel a lot more at peace with myself and I, I feel that there's a lot of good, that's been taking place within the family itself. There there's still my, my family's still healing.

And some of them won't talk to each other, which is normal mm-hmm . But I think, uh, there's much more acceptance at this point with family than there was, you know, five, six years ago. I hear you, man. And, uh, I'm glad that there's progress being made. It is a long journey and, uh, it's kind of this infinite goal where we we'll always be working on it to some extent, because yeah, I don't know if it'll ever be completely healed where, to the point where we're like, okay, I'm done.

Um, I I've often given the example of like fitness, you know, I never wake up one day and say, okay, I've reached the pinnacle of fitness. I will never do anything else with fitness ever again. I will never eat anything healthy. I will never work out. I'm good. Um, that's not, not gonna happen, so we need to stay at it.

But, but I do think it's possible to, to find closure, to learn how to, you know, cope with some of the struggles that we have to learn, the skills that we need to, to live really good, meaningful, um, beautiful life. And, uh, yeah, I could tell that you're you're well on your way there, man. Yeah. Thanks, man. I really appreciate that.

Yeah, man, I really appreciate you sharing your story. I just wanna. Give you an opportunity to, to everyone listening. Who's who's maybe going through a lot right now that they feel broken. Uh, they feel stuck. They're just going through a lot of pain, a lot of problems because of the brokenness in their family, whether their parents are divorced, separated, or maybe there's have really ugly marriage.

Like what encouragement, what would you give to, to people like that who are listening right now? Yeah, that's great. You know, if you are dealing with divorce or separation right now, or you're going through a lot of these emotions and, or maybe you're, you're, you're falling into different unhealthy patterns, know that you're not alone in that, that you there's, uh, a really great line from one, uh, a Catholic Pope from 20, 30 years ago, his name was John Paul II.

And he said, you are not the sum of, uh, your failures and weaknesses. He says, you are the sum of the father's love for you. Basically. You are not, you know, whether you're you're religious or maybe you're not, uh, just know that. You are not identified with the brokenness in your family. Uh, you are not the cause of the brokenness that you are experiencing in your family, but you are meant to be loved that you belong and that there are people that love you and that care for you and want to be there to support you.

And it's going to take time, but there is, there is hope. I know the experience of just thinking this is never gonna end. I feel claustrophobic. I, I feel like my world is crashing all around me. No, those experiences are very real and those, uh, those feelings are very, very real, but know that over time and over finding that support seeking help, man, that is that's gonna help you so much.

And there is, there is a light I, man, I can't believe I just said that there is a light at the end, but seriously, there is like hope there is hope for you. Mm-hmm and it's not always gonna be this. Time is so hard to deal with because it's slow, but it's going to, it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay in the end.

Uh, there's a, a great TV show. I , I highly recommend it. It's a Netflix series called it's okay. To not be okay. And it shows like the, these people that are dealing with their brokenness and acknowledging their brokenness over time. But one of the, the title for it is it's okay to not be okay. But I think that's so real is just to acknowledge that it's okay.

Not to be okay. You know, but know that there is a place for you. There are people that love you that supports you. And there is, there is hope for you, so good man. If people wanna connect with you, how can they do that? Yeah, you can, uh, connect me, uh, through Instagram, either pop young church. Uh, that's what, one, one of my Instagram accounts.

Um, I'm also at Malcolm Mac 93. If you wanna shoot an email, uh, you can shoot it at. M max Donalds, P Oop, plano.org. Awesome, man. And guys, we'll throw that stuff in the show notes so you can, uh, easily contact, uh, Malcolm, if you'd like to, man. Thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate you being here and just sharing and appreciate all your advice, all your wisdom as well.

Yeah. Thanks for having me. This is great.

One trend that we've. Ever sword is that the people who typically share their story with us to put on the blog, or maybe come on the podcast or share their story have typically been women. And so it's great to have Malcolm on, to hear from a man about how, you know, his broken family has affected him and what he did about.

And so men, we need to hear from you women. We wanna continue hearing from you. We really appreciative of all the stories that we've received, that you guys are trusting us with really some vulnerable stuff. And so if you wanna share your story, we'd love to hear it sharing your story. Actually, isn't just good for other people.

It's actually good for you too, in order to be able to share your story and communicate it, you need to reflect on it. And that act of thinking back and reflecting on your story, which so few of us actually do is actually healing on a neurobiologic level. It makes your. Healthier makes you healthier. And so, uh, reflect on your story.

So good. And then if you write that story down, which I'm gonna invite you to do in a second here, studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are actually less depressed. They're less anxious, they're healthier, they're happier. And then if you take that a step further and you share that story with someone else, someone who can really receive it and listen to you in an empathetic way, that is also healing on a neuro biological level.

Now it does help other people too. It can give someone guidance and hope. Like maybe there's someone who's five years behind you, or even your same age or 10 years behind you, whatever. And they're going through some of the things that you went through. They can really benefit a lot from hearing your story, knowing that they're not alone.

They're not the only one who went through that. Maybe learning. From you and figuring out, oh, maybe I should try this in my life or that in my life. Uh, but also just feel hopeful that there's light at the end of the tunnel. And so you can really help a lot of people by sharing your story and sharing your story is really simple.

It's just three steps. Go to restored ministry.com/story. Again, restored ministry ministry is just singular.com/story. The form on that page will guide you to write a short version of your story. And then we'll take that and we'll turn it into anonymous blog article. And then from time to time, we'll invite those authors on the show on the podcast to share their story.

Now that's not a requirement if you submit your story, but from time to time, we will reach out and ask, uh, the authors of those stories to come on the show, to talk a little bit more about their story. And so we'd love to hear from you. We'd love to hear your story. So go ahead and share it ever. Restored ministry.com/story today.

The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 38. Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful for you. I invite you to subscribe and I invite you to share this podcast with someone that you know, who could really use it. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.