#047: How Healing Improved My Life, Marriage, and Friendships | Sandra Howlett
When your parents’ marriage breaks apart, it feels like an earthquake. The most basic foundation, your family, is shaken and shattered. It’s disorienting. It’s traumatic. As a result, we tend to go through life doubting anything can last.
But thankfully, we’re not doomed to skepticism our entire lives. We can heal and feel whole again, like our guest Sandy. In this episode, she shares:
How she beat chronic depression
How her choice to forgive her parents led to feeling free instead of stuck
The sexual mistakes she made and the healing she’s found
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TRANSCRIPT
Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!
When your parents' marriage falls apart, it often feels like an earthquake. The most basic foundation in your family is shaken and shattered. It's disorienting, it's traumatic. And because of that, we tend to go through life questioning what won't fall apart. We doubt that anything can last, that we can rely on anything or anyone.
But while that is a real struggle that we face, we're not doomed to perpetual skepticism our entire lives. We can heal and feel whole again. And we can even learn to trust and find security which we touch on. In this episode, you're also gonna hear us discuss how my guest beat chronic depression, just incredible story, how her choice to forgive her parents actually led to feeling free instead of stuck.
She makes the great point that mentors are an incredible tool to help you heal. And. She shares how healing her brokenness has actually helped her find peace in life, build good friendships and even improve her own marriage. And then she gets real about the sexual mistakes that she's made and the healing that she's found.
This is really raw and real conversation with solid advice. So keep listening.
Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation. Or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 47 and today my guest is Sandra Hallett. Sandy grew up in Southern California, where she spent her time, camping, surfing, and horseback riding Sharon earned a bachelor's in journalism from California state long beach and has written for black belt and boys' life magazines and various community newspapers.
She's been married for 20 years and now lives in Minnesota with her husband, mark. She has a blended family with two stepsons, one earning his masters in theology and another who is a talented musician and one son in his first year of minor. Seminary Sandy rediscovered her Catholic faith upon moving to Minnesota at nine years ago.
And in the last two years has begun the healing process from her parents' divorce. She's a life giving wounds online retreat leader and works part-time for marriage material, a pro-life organization. Like I mentioned, this conversation is very raw and real. We talk about topics that honestly are not talked about enough.
And so I hope this is helpful for you. I know it will be. So here's my conversation with Sandy,
Sandy. Welcome to the show. Thank you. I've been really looking forward to this, to, to everyone listening, uh, Sandy and I actually got to, to meet up in person recently. We had dinner together. Uh, Sandy, thanks again. I, uh, I hope you enjoyed that pizza that we had, and it was really great to meet you in person.
Yeah. So good to, uh, see the face on the other side of the voice. Finally. you make me sound special? I don't, I don't feel special at all, but, um, no, it, it was great to, to meet you in person. That definitely changes the dynamics of the interview. Cuz a lot of the people I interview, I don't have the pleasure of meeting in person, but if any of you listening, if you're ever in Colorado, uh, hit me up, it would be great to, to see you.
But Sandy's so good to have you. I, I just honored to hear your story to, and I, I know some of it already and just share it with restores audience. So I'd like to start by you just taking us to your C. Like what happened with your parents' marriage, with your family? How old were you? Uh, how did you react to it?
Yeah, so I was four, maybe close to five when my parents, um, separated got divorced and I really hardly remember anything. I mean, my, the only memories I have growing up are mostly after the divorce. I have a couple of strong memories right before it happened. Um, one of 'em was an earthquake and so that's kind of weird.
So it's kind of ingrained in my, in my memory. And, um, in fact it was kind of a metaphor for me for a while of like just the ground shaking and me as I was getting older and dealing with the issues of divorce of just kind of feeling like I'm, you know, on shaky ground and never quite able to find solid the ground for myself and in my life and stuff.
Anyways. So my dad, um, had convinced my mom, so we were living in Southern California and this was the seventies. And, you know, there was a lot of stuff going on in the seventies, but, um, he, um, apparently wasn't happy in his marriage and he talked my mom into, um, going to this swingers party. And, um, I know they were like maybe smoking a little pot and stuff too at the time, cuz we had found pipes in their dresser drawers.
But anyway, um, you know, the, they both came from very conservative Catholic background. So it was just kind of, I don't know how to explain how all this went down, but um, anyway, they end up at this party that my mom says she really didn't wanna go to my dad has a very forceful personality. So I kind of understand how that worked.
And he met my stepmom, who she's still my stepmom 50 years later. And um, you know, their story is apparently their knees touched and sparks flew. And that was that. I do remember vaguely, I think it's a real memory of them. Uh, my parents arguing at one point yelling at each other and then after that nothing.
And so he moved out temporarily to an apartment and then, um, Moved in with my stepmom at her house. So we, I guess the summer after they got separated and, or divorced, my mom, my dad had been trying to encourage my mom to go on trips or vacations by herself. Um, which I probably because of the marriage, but she had, she tells me that this trip was pre-planned before they separated.
So she was gonna go to Europe for the summer. And then after they separated, of course, he probably didn't wanna have anything to do with it, taking care of the kids and letting her, you know, go on this trip. But they were separated and she was very, very angry and very upset. And apparently had the babysitter drive us over to my dad and stepmom's house and just drop us off and say, here, you're taking the kids, you know, mm-hmm oh, wow.
which, um, you know, Obviously it wasn't great that my dad, you know, left the family, but it's also not great with kids who are in turmoil, like early on in a divorce for your mom then to also kind of take off for a summer. So, you know, trauma upon trauma, obviously we kind of made it work, but like I said, you know, we were, we were pretty.
Angry and naughty kids. And we would lock the babysitter out of the house during the day. And I know my sister ran away at least once. And, you know, I mean, we were, we were pretty traumatized when I was, so that was when I was about four or five. And then when I was 12, my mom was getting remarried. And so the courts at that time, so we had had the custody was, you know, at that time it was mostly given to the moms and then weekends with dad.
So every other weekend with my dad, which of course didn't really help our relationship either. I think he had some anger from the divorce, but he also has a very strong personality, you know, despite that. And so, you know, it was really hard and my parents, so, you know, we had what would be considered a good divorce, of course you, and I know there's no such thing mm-hmm , but as far as that, there wasn't any open fighting.
We had a pretty good lifestyle. I mean, it was definitely. We had to watch our pennies at my mom's house. We had a lot less money. So we were really, you know, on a tight budget, but we did a lot of camping for vacations and things like that, which is just, you know, one of the greatest memories of my childhood is just camping with my mom and our friends and stuff.
So in a way, it's, it's a good thing. We didn't have too much money. But then on the, then on the flip side, you know, my dad was doing quite well. He was an entrepreneur. He had his own modem company, started with a group of guys. He ended up, um, I mean like early on, he has like several patents developing stuff he was selling to apple was one of his customers and, you know, stuff like that.
So. So it was kind of a dichotomy because we had, you know, a pretty, you know, tight budget at my mom's and then we would go to my dad's and there was lots of money mm-hmm wow. And, you know, it was really hard for my mom, for instance, like we would come home after Christmas with all these expensive presents for my dad that she couldn't afford to buy us.
And so that was tough, but so they weren't, you know, really talking, even though it wasn't volatile and, um, We would have to make arrangements with our dad directly when we were children for our, every other weekly visits, which was really stressful for us. Cuz again, he was kind of, um, you know, a hard person to deal with.
I always in my, my PC adult life, I call him prickly. He was a little prickly, not, not more fuzzy, you know? Um, and so me and my sisters would fight, you know, like we're small children. We're like, you gotta call dad to make arrangements. I'm not calling him. You call him. I'm not gonna call him. you know, it was just like kind of stressful for us, but yeah, that's kind of how that went and then.
When I was 12, the courts decided, uh, and my mom was getting remarried and moving about an hour away from, you know, we had stayed in the childhood home where my mom and dad had lived, which was great also because it really gave us, you know, more stability than we would've had as children of divorced.
Cause I know a lot of children are divorced, have to go back and forth and Lu their stuff around and you know, all of that. And I understand you wanna, you know, maintain a relationship with dads, et cetera. But actually I feel like it was just a blessing that we didn't have to do that. Mm-hmm . And so, you know, at 12, my mom's getting remarried moving away and the court says, well, you're old enough to decide what parent you wanna live.
Yeah. Well, I think back now, and I'm like really at 12, I'm old enough to decide that. And not only that, but to have all that pressure put on me, like so much pressure. Oh my gosh. My sisters had already decided and with maybe a little urging from my dad that we had lived with my mom, the majority of the time, and maybe it was his turn or maybe it was, you know, let's live with dad.
So I'm like the last one. And they keep asking me, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? I'm like, I don't know. And it, you know, it's kind of a lose, lose situation. Absolutely. You know? Um, so my sisters were already leaving. If I went to live with my dad, my mom would be completely alone. And not to mention, like I said, my dad, wasn't the easiest person to live with.
So I'm like, well, you know, let me go live with my mom, just because it's easier. And because I wanna be there for her and you know, so that's what happened. Wow. There's so much there. It just breaks my heart to think of, you know, the four or five year old, you going through all of this stuff. And then everything that followed through the years, I think your analogy of, you know, the earthquake is so fitting and we've heard this again and again from people how it just feels like the foundation has been taken out underneath you.
And it just feels like kind of the way that we talk about it is if the, the family is the most basic fundamental sort of foundation that we're supposed to be able to rely on. And that falls apart, we tend to go through life feeling like, well, what won't fall apart? Like what can I actually rely on? And so we have so many feelings of insecurity there.
Yeah. And I had, um, a lot of nightmares as a child. I'm assuming it was after the divorce. And I remember going to sleep in my mom's room a lot because I was scared. And I, I still, to this day, remember the scary clown and the, the, in my dreams and the washing machine that I was stuck in. And then at sometimes I would try to sleep with my middle sister and she would kick me out.
And so I specifically remember one time waiting till she was asleep and crawling into her bed. And it's like a little twin bed, you know? And I'm curling my little body at the base of the bed near her feet and sleeping, you know, after she had already fallen asleep. So she couldn't kick me out. it's like so sad.
Yeah. Oh man. Yeah. I can imagine if you were to go back right now and just be with that little girl. I am curious. I, I, yeah. What would you say to, to her if you were to go back right now, I know I'm putting you on the spot, but, um, I'm just curious. Gosh, that's a great question. I mean, it's different. I, I could talk to my 20 year old self easier maybe than the little girl's self, but I know that, um, you know, it's not your fault.
You're loved. I mean, that's, I think the biggest thing with children is that. and not that we consciously think it's our fault, but somehow it gets into our psyche that we were somehow at fault, like parent didn't love me enough or whatever. I wasn't enough to keep them there. Or, you know, so just to, just to let people know that it's not their fault and you were loved and your parents are flawed.
Like when we're children, we just think our parents know everything. We just think that they're so perfect. And they have it all together. And. I can tell you as a parent now, and as an adult, like we don't know anything. we're maybe as we go along, we're just better at pretending yeah. I mean, it's kind of humbling.
And then it also tends to give you. A little more perspective and a little more forgiveness for your parents when you get older and you just realize that everybody's doing the best they can, we're all human, we all fail. And yeah, you just don't realize how kind of flawed your parents are as a child.
mm-hmm yeah. We, we tend to make them into superheroes thinking that, oh my goodness. Especially, you know, dad, we look at him and we say, oh my goodness, he's Superman. He can do nothing wrong. I know I looked at my dad like that. And then when my parents separated, that was part of the reason that it was so hard on me.
I was like, wait a minute. They're not perfect. And, and there's actually, you know, been some real problems going on that I wasn't aware of and all sorts of stuff that just crushed my trust in, in both my parents. Yeah. And, um, you know, I recently went on a retreat for children of divorce, with my stepson and, you know, he got, uh, An earful on probably the first time he's ever heard it, that I had issues with my marriage, to his father, you know, which is my current husband.
And, you know, I'm sure, you know, most people don't talk about marital problems that much. So even your friends and family and, you know, everyone thinks that everything's just perfect. And, um, there's a lot that goes on behind closed doors. yeah, absolutely. I, I wish we would talk about it more in a constructive environment, you know?
Cause I think, yes. I think one of the things that happens often is that, uh, one or both spouses go to their friends and they just gossip and they just complain and there's nothing constructive about it, but I, I really wish we would talk about those problems market. I think it would lead to better solutions.
I, and I definitely wanna get to that, uh, further with you, but yeah, I wanna give you a chance now, if you wanted to add anything there. Oh yeah, no, we can, we can talk about it a little bit later, but I know some of my friends really appreciate the fact like I'm. Pretty outspoken. Um, I've got some of my dad's traits.
I have a lot of, you know, ideas and opinions and things like that. I could talk forever, but that is one of the things that some of my friends appreciate my outspokenness and my, um, willingness to speak about. In a general way about marital problems without complaining about them. Like, yeah, this is hard, you know?
Yeah, absolutely. I, no, I think that's so good. And looking to you as an example, I'm sure is so helpful to, to so many of your friends and anyone who, who mentored look, who looks up to you. I wanna pause for a second. Just say anyone in the Minnesota area that Sandy's been working on, starting a support group.
I mean, at least you did right Sandy for a six week kind of stint. And, uh, that's possibly something that you will be doing in the future too. So at the end, we'll give people info if they wanna contact you, but it just came to mind because you are a go getter. You wanna start things, you wanna help people.
Yes. And I think that would be useful for anyone in your area. Are you in the, uh, Minneapolis area? Yes, I'm in Stillwater, Minnesota. Perfect. Okay. So it's about 30 minutes outside of the cities. Mm-hmm okay. Sounds good. So we'll make sure to, um, connect people with you if they wanna know more. Yeah. Maybe you all could, could help each other and get something going up there.
Definitely. Awesome. Love it. Two, two things you said before that really stuck out to me. One, you said you were kinda living in two worlds and I think that's the reality for so many, uh, children of divorce is that we live in two worlds, but it's so interesting. The financial difference. I've seen that with my parents, even to this day to, to be vulnerable.
Um, my dad was always working in construction and very experienced and good at what he he does. And so he, um, you know, always had the opportunity, usually had the opportunity to make a lot of money. And so when we're with him, it's usually going out to eat. And like you said, Christmas gifts and birthday gifts and things like that.
We're a little bit more extravagant. And then on mom's side, you know, she stayed at home for so many years to raise us, which was just such a sacrifice and a blessing. Like I, I'm just really grateful that she did that. Um, but then she had to go back to work. And so, uh, right now, you know, she's gonna be okay through retirement, but it is a real struggle.
And as we know, divorce just destroys people financially as well, especially if it's drawn out, like my parents' merit, uh, divorce was. And so, um, I can really relate with that. The other thing that you said was being the middle man, um, a number two of six kids as, uh, some people listening will know and, uh, being one of the oldest, I think I especially had to assume that role, especially cuz my parents were just kind of at each other's throats and it's like, okay, we're gonna have to be the mediator.
My, my older brother and I, and even my younger siblings. Different points. And so that, that is just such a struggle and it's such a difficult position to be in for, for kids. And I was curious offhand, uh, if you had any advice for anyone in that situation right now, who is the middle man who maybe feels like they need to be the middle man either to just keep things civil between mom and dad, or maybe protect their siblings.
I know I've assumed that role to protect my siblings so that my dad or my mom wouldn't go to them instead, they'd come to me cuz I felt better able to, to handle it in a lot of situations. But yeah. Any advice for that young person who is dealing with being the middle man? Yeah. That's not your job, you're a kid.
It's not your job. And I understand if you have siblings. So if you say no to being the middle man for your parents, that maybe they'll go to the siblings, but you know, it would be nice. Um, as a group, if you know, all the children would realize and you know, have a pact like. No, that's not our job. I think children of divorce are really forced to grow up, you know, way too early because of all these things.
And, you know, we've already lost so much of our childhood and that's just one more thing. And so for them to just realize that that's not what they're being asked to do is not reasonable. It's not something that should be put on them as children. And to just say no, , you know, like to find those boundaries somehow and, you know, and realize that, you know, don't be afraid of losing the love of your parents, cuz that's the, that's the biggest motivator for everything we do with our parents.
We're trying to please them. And you know, even if your parents get angry at you, they usually don't stop loving you. So, you know, it's just, it's just to realize that hopefully, you know, you can, you can kind of. Somehow set a boundary or find, or find a different solution to you having to feel like you have to be the middle man, and just maybe have a talk with them and just say, I'm not comfortable doing that.
You're the adult. I think you should do it. yeah, no, that's easier said than done. Oh, absolutely. And, and one thing to add there, uh, you might need to remind them frequently. I know I had to do this over the years and, uh, it's, it's sad, but. Yeah. I, I think there's so many raw emotions between our parents. So we, we might need to remind them of the boundary.
It's not like something you set once and it's done forever. That would be nice. I wish it was that way. Yeah, exactly. But, um, but reminding, and I love that idea, Sandy, about kind of teaming up with your siblings instead of just going it alone so that the middle man position goes to another sibling. That that's really good cause that, that is a great alternative.
And so getting them all on the same page, then maybe one or two of you approaching the, your parents and just saying, okay, we all agree on this. If, if, I mean, maybe you all could do it, but if not, uh, just one or two of you maybe could approach them and just explain how it's not good. It's not healthy. And they really need to be talking themselves to each other or through maybe some other mediator, like a family member or a friend, someone who's a counselor, even an attorney, someone who's exactly better equipped to, to handle those things.
So, uh, yeah, I love that. I, uh, also, and what a difficult position you were put in, just wanna touch on that. Cause I think there's a lot of people who feel that pressure of choosing between mom and dad, whether that means living with one or just O in other ways as well. And so, like, I know for, for me, when we go back to Chicago, we typically stay with mom.
And I know naturally because we're staying with mom it's, uh, a little bit more difficult to make time to see dad. And I know he feels kind of hurt by that and it can be difficult. Like we really make, we put forth an effort to have a relationship. You know, I put forth an effort to have a relationship with both of my parents, but it kind of just naturally because of that.
And so I've certainly feel that tension now, but man, I can't imagine as a, just a young woman. Uh, being forced to choose like that. And so a again, I just wanted to get your advice for anyone who's maybe in that situation now. And I, I'm not sure what all the court systems, uh, do at this point in terms of determining living situation.
I hope it's better than, than what you described, but I'm just curious. Yeah. Any advice for someone in that situation now who's listening. I don't really know. I mean, once they've, once they've put you in that situation, I'm sure some people would say, well, I never got a choice and it's nice that you got a choice, but I feel like it was just way too young to have that kind of burden put on me.
But yeah, I've always hated Christmas. It's it's better now, but growing up worst time of the year, having to, you know, bounce back and forth between parents' house. And even now we have to, you know, make sure that we spend the right amount of time, give everybody equal time and. You know, we're driving all over my family lives in the LA area, Southern California.
And as you know, the traffic's pretty bad there and just, that's an understatement. just driving from house to house. And now that I'm married, I have my in-laws, you know, that my husband's side of the family to visit. So now there's three family units to visit and it's just so exhausting, you know? Yeah. Um, and I, I just feel like kids really carry the burden of all that.
I was telling somebody at this retreat, like, you know, wouldn't it be great if we just had our house and all the parents had to come to us and had to coordinate with us rather than, you know, I mean, it's a logistical nightmare. I have to tell you because you know, not just like going to each house, but you know, which one do we start at and when do we, where do we go and how, you know, I mean just, oh my gosh.
yeah. And there's so much tension there too. Like if you go to this family's house first, it's like, well, you're, they're your favorites then? Or you spend maybe a little bit more time here than there. And it's, uh, it is, it can just be a mess, but I agree. It can be exhausting. And, um, yeah, I, I love that idea.
We should maybe try to implement that, just having them come to us. And I know some people listening have done that, which is great. Yeah. How did you see, uh, your parents' divorce affect you in the years that that followed, uh, you already explained some of that, but I'm curious if you would elaborate a little bit more.
Yeah, well, gosh, I feel like I wa I was a train wreck as a kid really, or as a teenager, young adult. I mean, I can't emphasize how off the rails I was. And I'll talk about it later. I guess if we have time, one of the things I didn't realize though, is how much anger I had. Um, so I'm, you know, pretty happy go lucky person.
I. I don't know, had good friends when I was younger and just joked around a lot and just had a lot of fun. But, um, you know, underneath there was just so much anger lurking there, which I found out after I got married of all times. So, um, it, it comes out. It, you can suppress things, but it comes out. But, but when I was younger, um, I was very rebellious.
I drank a lot. Like I, the first time I ditched school, I was in sixth grade and we were drinking at my house. I didn't have a lot of supervision for my mom, cuz she was working full time and she also was a different time when parents really didn't supervise their kids as much. And I really could have used supervision, but anyway.
Sure. Yeah. So I just. Yeah, got into a lot of drinking, um, with my friends and the, you know, the crowds that I hung out with that was normal anyway, for middle school, high school. Um, when my mom moved, she moved to kind of a nicer area, um, near the beach and there was. A lot of rich kids there and they drank and did drugs and, you know, lots of that stuff.
So there was house parties, the parents would leave for the weekends and there'd be these huge house parties or even smaller ones, but sometimes like, you know, hundreds of people, but yeah, so I got into a lot of trouble. I didn't really have a curfew. Yeah. I was drinking and driving. Um, just, yeah, I, I became probably more like towards the end of high school and in my twenties, I became very promiscuous.
Um, just kind of looking for that lost love, you know, love and, and affection attention from, from men. You know, it was kind of like, my heart was so walled up. I couldn't offer anything else. I couldn't make myself vulnerable, but you're so needing. That human connection. And yet when your heart's walled off, you can't make that connection.
And so it was, you know, it was made with my body and that was, that was pretty much all I had to offer and that's, it kept me going. And, um, it just, it really was almost, it was over the top and it almost like at an addictive level where it's like, I just couldn't stop. Like, I, I felt bad. And, um, I told my sister recently, like, yeah, I feel like I just lost my soul because we were talking about her kids or her daughter and like premarital sex.
And I wasn't, I wasn't Catholic when I was younger, I was raised Catholic, but I didn't have faith and I wasn't following the faith and stuff, but I really see, um, a reason now not to have premarital sex. I just. Yeah, it, it just doesn't work like from a practical standpoint. So, you know, a lot of what I found out through, you know, my experience of kind of healing and growing up and realizing all the things that had gone wrong in my life was that my life just wasn't working for me.
And that was one of 'em, you know, you just can't, you just can't jump into a physical relationship without having, um, a commitment or having something else there already, because then you, you feel worse. You feel like, do they really love me or do they only love me for my body? You know? And it just, it just ruins your, it ruined my self-esteem.
I mean, of, of all the things that happened. I know the divorce can be really hard on people's self-esteem their identity, things like that. But I think that more than anything else just kind of really shattered me and it was, you know, to a large part, my own doing. And so. Yeah. You know, I, I, I really couldn't stop even though I hated myself all the time for it.
And then I would just do it again. yeah. I mean, I had, it was like this aura, I kind of, you know, had this need for attention and people like it was felt, it was just like, it was front and center, you know, like I literally look across a crowded noisy bar and lock eyes with some guy and know that, okay, we're going home tonight, you know, together.
And so it was, you know, it was very dangerous, very, uh, in, in addition to other like physical risks and stuff that I took, um, when I was younger, cuz I was a real adrenaline junkie, you know, that was kind of, I've always been very physical, but I mean, obviously that was really risky and I. Thank God that I'm here to talk about it.
I guess. Yeah. Seriously. It's it's so interesting. I want you to keep going, but I wanna comment on something here. Uh, the, the anger and marriage thing. I've seen that in my own life, and I've seen that in, in other marriages that I know as well. Um, it's so interesting. I, yeah, I don't, I don't, I can't say I totally understand it.
I, I guess part of the reason I think, and I'm curious, what you think is just when you open yourself up on a heart level, like you said, not just physically, but really be vulnerable to someone. It brings up a lot of imperfections. It brings up a lot of baggage and brokenness that maybe we didn't have to deal with before marriage or before an intimate relationship.
So it's so interesting that I think that that is a trend like marriage seems to cause so many issues to, to surface for anyone. But I think, especially for people like us, I think there's several things at work. And one of 'em is maybe expectations and just what you thought marriage was gonna be. And it's never what, it's what you think it's gonna be.
And mm-hmm, people don't really talk about that. You know, you go to a wedding and everyone's all happy and stuff. And I wanna just, you know, shake 'em and say, oh, it's not what you think right. Like there there's some really good and beautiful parts to it, but it it's just like life it's there's ups and downs.
Right. And I think a lot of people go into marriage feeling. You know, this person's gonna be my savior or this person's gonna make everything right in my life. And that's, like I said, that's part of the expectations is that, you know, this person is my everything and everything that I I've been, you know, lonely, I've been, you know, insecure.
I've been. Whatever broken, forgotten, whatever through the divorce, and this is gonna make everything all right. And it's not, like you said, it's life, life is life, whether you're married or not married. And then the other thing is that it really shows that other person is a reflection of all your faults, because the way that they react to you and what you're doing, um, and it's just like holding up a mirror to yourself and all these things that either you didn't realize were false, or you don't wanna admit, or you don't wanna look at yourself.
And so it kind of shines the light back on you through that other person. And, you know, oftentimes we don't like what we see mm-hmm so it, it makes it very difficult. But then also just, you know, I had a lot of anger and mistrust of men in general. And so, I mean, certainly I think that probably came out in my marriage and, um, Yeah.
Just having to, to really deal with that, with that anger. I mean, I was at one point, like I would cuss a lot in my head and that's something that I worked on, cuz even though I know it's in my head and nobody could hear it, but at the same time, you and I know that what's in your heart or in your thoughts, it, it comes out, it comes out in your, in your actions.
You, you really. Hide who you are or what's what's inside. So yes, I had to work on that because a large part of my marriage, I would just be cussing in my head sure, sure. No. And I think so many of us who come from broken families, like we didn't see a model of what marriage is supposed to look like. We, we saw actually a poor example.
And so when it's our turn, we just feel lost. We're like, how do I do this? Like, there's no manual with it. And maybe we got some guidance here or there, but overall it's almost foreign to us. Whereas someone who comes from an intact family though, I'm sure there's always struggles within marriage. They at least have this example, this positive example that was ingrained in their bones, so to speak.
And I, I think that's a huge, a huge thing that's missing for us. Absolutely. Um, but I think the trust thing. Is really big too beyond just like having an example of marriage, just not trusting people. You know, I think that really comes into play in marriage, but, um, oh, as far as the example of marriages. So it's interesting because you know, my mom was single for about seven years and then she got remarried.
She dated a lot, so there was a little instability there and then she got married and she's, you know, she's in a happy marriage, but my, um, my dad and my stepmom, they were like I said, soulmates. And so I did again, the dichotomy and the, in the finances, but also in the, in the love, because they're, even though my mom has a good relationship, my dad and my stepmom are what I call the one percenters.
Well, my dad passed a year and a half ago, but the one percenters of marriage were they're actually just, you know, completely head over heels in love. Soulmates, whatever, you know, I did have that example from them. And at the same time, it was kind of hard because my stepmom is the one that my dad left our family for
So should I be happy that they have this wonderful joyous marriage? Or should I not? So, I mean, even that caused even that caused some pain and at the same time, trying to celebrate that love and, and to have that as an example. So it was really a double edged sword there, but we did have, you know, some, some good examples.
Okay. No, that makes sense. And that's so confusing. Like, do you look to them as an example or not? Yeah, I, I totally hear you there. Yeah. What else would you add to how you saw the, the breakdown of their marriage affect. I don't know, the, the trust was probably the biggest thing. Like, and, um, well you have, you know, you've talked about loneliness and whatnot, but being able to make friends, male and female relationships were really not good.
And, and so, yeah, so that made, uh, gave me a lot of loneliness throughout my life. Just not having those really good connections, cuz it's one thing if your family separates, but if you have some good friends and good support groups, so, you know, that was the issue with me is that I didn't have any good mentors.
I didn't have any grandparents because they were all gone by the time I was five and I know grandparents can be a great resource for people. Um, we did have one family friend. I think I mentioned I was a latchkey kid when my, my parents divorced and my mom went back to work and I'm walking home from kindergarten by myself and letting myself in.
But most of the time, um, I stopped at our friend's house. So we had some very, very close family, friends, and their house was on the way back. So I was able to stop there and hang out for a while until my sisters got out of school. That was good. But I remember complaining one time to my sister about, you know, well, do you have a, did you have any mentors growing up?
Because I really, I felt like that would've been a huge benefit to me. She says, yeah, I had this person and I had this person. I had, you know, our stepmom who she's a lot closer to. And so she turned to her as a mentor and she had, um, a guy at the horse barn who was a mentor and I'm like, wow. I feel really, um, you know, like I really missed out cuz I didn't have anyone.
So I, you know, turned to writing a lot. I journal and write and all of that, which was. Which was very helpful. Yeah, there just, there wasn't a lot of structure. And then when I was growing up with my mom and then she got remarried and she married a military man mm. So I go from having pretty much zero structure or discipline or anything, and living in a household with a stepdad.
And of course I was angry and I was, you know, rebellious and all of those things and then kind of hit up against his, his personality. And that was scary for me. I saw a couple of. Small incidents, like where he took my step, uh, brother and, you know, shoved him against the wall. And, you know, for me, I was a very, very sensitive kid.
So any like tiny even hints of kind of violence or aggression are just really frightening to me. and so that just really scared me. So then I was, you know, living in this, this household now with a stepdad who I was afraid of for many years, and we're great now, but yeah, it was kind of a shock to my system.
Absolutely. No that that's a lot to deal with. And you mentioned also to me that you struggle with depression for years and just self-esteem issues and oh yeah. The, you know, the depression was pretty much chronic, lifelong, and. You know, it started to really lift in the last two or three years when I've been getting some healing.
And so, you know, there's a lot of things in your personality when you are, when you have trauma or, you know, childhood wounds that you think is who you are like, oh, I'm just a depressed person. And you don't realize, or I just have anxiety or I just a bad person who has no self discipline and I just party too much.
And you don't realize that some of these behaviors or actions, things that you attribute to your personality are actually part of your wound. Um, so I think that's really critical because, you know, I, um, I actually have some family history of mental illness. And so, especially with that going on, I thought, well, I'm just damaged.
I, I have a mental health issue or, you know, I thought I. I was convinced I, uh, was bipolar at one point because I would get very, very depressed sometimes lasting for, you know, a week or maybe longer. And then when I would come out of it, I would feel so good that it almost seemed like, you know, there were these extremes that I was, you know, maybe bipolar.
And, um, I don't know if that's the thing you can grow out. Per se I'm not a mental health expert, but, but I know that my depression was very bad and it's almost completely gone now. So I think your, your body protects you from things to some degree, you know, I don't, I don't know how that all works, but just that it's not, it's not permanent.
Some of these problems that you have, you know, they're not permanent and there are reasons for them, you didn't cause them, you were a victim to some degree of, of what happened to you in your childhood. And, and there is, there is hope for healing. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm no psychologists or neurobiologists either, but I think one of the things that I've learned that has been helpful to understand is that when you go through trauma, like you said, your brain experiences that trauma as if it's ongoing, unless you heal it, unless you process it, unless you kind of file it away, it, it, your brain's almost experiencing that continually throughout your life, cuz it doesn't have a sense of time.
The emotional part of your brain doesn't have a sense of time like we do in other parts of our brains. And so, um, that's just continuing on. So it makes sense. Again, there's other, there's many factors that go into chronic depression. I don't wanna simplify this too much. It makes sense that if, you know, we went through trauma and we never dealt with it, we never healed that we would continue feeling the way we did maybe when we were younger, when we went through the trauma immediately after the trauma.
So that makes sense to me that you experienced that in your story. And I'm so hopeful for all of the younger generation that has resources like restored and life giving wounds, because, you know, I didn't have that. And the fact that it's the voice of the children, you know, of divorce actually, and being able to share your stories and to be seen and heard.
And, um, I think that's amazing. So one of the problems that, so I just turned 55 and literally have just started to kind of get healing in the last 3, 4, 5 years. So I've lived with this for a very long time. And one of the things is that I always thought, what is, you know, what's wrong with me? Like my sisters, don't talk about it.
As being in the forefront of their life or having problems ongoing, although I can look at the relationships and lives and think, yes, they do, but Hmm. You know, as far as in their minds, they, they don't think they weren't thinking about it as much as I was. And it was, you know, I was always realizing that somehow the divorce was affecting me, although I didn't quite know how.
And so it was a terrible feeling, feeling like, you know, what is wrong with me? Like, I'm the only one that feels this in this world. And I didn't have, you know, your resource or no knew about you before. And, um, it was very lonely and isolating and I was, you know, very hard on myself because it's like, okay, there's something wrong with me.
And then when I became. Re immersed in the Catholic faith, they talk aloud about forgiveness. And so then it, I started working on forgiveness, which was great. It's a wonderful, uh, virtue at the same time, I thought, what is wrong with me that I'm still thinking about this divorce? Is it that I don't have enough forgiveness for my parents?
And I, you know, I'm just a bad person because I can't forgive. And so that also was kind of a double edged sword as. Okay. I wanna forgive, but clearly I had a lot of wounds that hadn't been addressed, like you said, totally. And I relate to the mental illness thing as well. That runs in my family. My dad deals with it.
It's just such a difficult thing. And, uh, you, you know that when you said basically that we believe that our condition is our identity and we confuse that often, and one counselor that came on the show said, uh, those things that you feel, the brokenness that you feel, it's really just how you're doing.
It's not who you are. And it's important to remember, especially to anyone listening right now who maybe you're dealing with anxiety, depression, loneliness, any other range of issues, and you confuse that condition as your identity, but that's not the case. Absolutely. Yeah. And then, you know, the other thing is.
You know, I was very detached a lot. Like I just kind of felt like I was going through the motions in life. You know, I also really didn't care sometimes if I lived or died, I think that's part of the reason why I took a lot of risks and part of it was just because I'm physical. But, um, I would remember sometimes I, I would get mad and I would drive without a seatbelt or I just, I was never suicidal.
I know we talked about that. There's a lot of people, uh, children of divorce who are suicidal and I wasn't that, but at the same time, I took a lot of risks, almost like tempting death, you know, and yeah, and really getting into like a victim mentality. I know that some of it was a little bit maybe self-fulfilling and that you can get into this mentality and then that's all you see is, you know, everything that everybody does to you.
It's, you're the victim and, and that's, you know, that's not healthy, but at the same time, I really was. I think because I maybe didn't have strong boundaries and it's almost like total strangers could see my vulnerability or could see that. And so, you know, not just getting in that mentality, but having actually becoming somewhat of a victim in certain situations.
Right. Yeah. So you thought you were the only common denominator. Wow. So interesting. I, I wanna go back to something you said before you mentioned that that writing was one of the ways that you coped with the pain and even it was even healing for you. What were some other things that were healing for you, uh, following the breakdown in your family?
Well, um, I've always been really big on exercise and, um, outdoor activities and things like that. So I ran cross country for a while. I surfed a lot. I loved, I loved swimming in the ocean because. I love nature. And, and then just also the, the challenge of it and the fun of that. So I got into surfing when I was young.
Yeah. I've, you know, for my mental health exercise has always been huge. And then I was big into horses. My family was, and so I did some, and it also suited my need for speed and all of that. So I did what was called three day eventing, the third. So there's, um, you know, stadium jumping and there's dressage.
And then there's the third element, which is the speed and these huge obstacles. So it was timed and they timed you and ya. So they took points away for a few. You know, hit the op if the horse hit the obstacle or, you know, whatever. And so really suited my, uh, adrenaline needs. That was really fun, but yeah, and I loved to dance.
I was, uh, like, like a bars or clubs or whatever, but I just, I was a total dance aholic. And, um, that was a way for me to blow off steam, things like that. Just being outdoors, being physical, writing journaling, and. I wrote, you know, I've written quite a bit of few poems now, but before I was writing and I didn't know quite what they were, I thought they were songs.
They might be poems. I don't really know. And it took a long time. I, you know, probably in my forties when I took my first poetry class, and that was really amazing because all these little chicken scratches that I had all over everywhere in a million different journals, I was able to kind of make sense of, of an art form to apply them to.
And, and it was really amazing. And I, I learned something too about form poetry, which I thought, because I always wanted my freedom and I was that type of person who, you know, never wanted to have too much structure mm-hmm . And I found out for one thing for mental health structure is just really, really important.
And the people who most need it are the people who fight it the most as far as having structure in their lives. So it's really, really interesting. But as far as the poetry goes, there's something called form poems where they, you know, have specific rhyme schemes or syllables, uh, et cetera to follow. And I thought, well, that sounds too restricting.
But once I started doing it, I really saw the freedom within the boundaries and restrictions, which is also, I guess, kind of a metaphor for my life. You know, mm-hmm, because you can have, you know, when you have a structure to lean on, you can have a lot of freedom in that. And I think that's kind of what the Catholicism that I reengaged with does for me too.
It just, it gives me that kind of a moral structure or a guideline for living that I really was lacking. And as much as I thought, I. I just valued my freedom. I feel more free now having that structure. That's incredible. Yeah. So, you know, going back to the church was really huge for me. Yeah. How, how, in particular, I'm curious, like reengaging that faith, cuz uh, you know, there's a lot of people listening right now and people out in our culture in general who have, you know, real issues with, uh, religion and they just don't want anything to do with God.
And they see it as restricting and you're saying, no, it's actually freeing. I was, I was an atheist. My dad became atheist after the divorce and you know, I was my family. We were raised pro-choice. You know, you say the word God to me and I would cringe, like it's, you know, poison mm-hmm . I mean, that's how, that's how far on the spectrum of that I was, and then I just, I was always searching for something I just needed.
I knew I needed something in my life and wanted something more. And I just, I really didn't know what, and I was, you know, just trying to reach out, like, try on the faith kind of, and, you know, engage a little or talk to people of faith. And it didn't, you know, it's like a jacket that doesn't quite fit, right?
Like for many years I was like trying to, you know, make it fit. Like it was uncomfortable. It wasn't natural. And I just, one of the things, like I said, like before I even started listening to what the church was teaching, I had already learned what was working and what wasn't working in my life and already kind of.
Formed my own opinions about that. And then when I went back to the Catholic church, I realized that they were saying a lot of the things, not like I've discovered this because obviously it's 2000 years old. But, um, but they were saying a lot of things that I had already through trial and error and a lot of error and a lot of hardship had figured out for myself in my life, what works.
Yeah. And, and just the idea of, you know, living a moral life, having, I, I think where the freedom comes in the most is just the freedom that you feel, um, which really maybe at its core is peace. Like a, a, a clean conscience, something you don't, we're not walking around thinking, you know, that you, you have all this guilt on your back though.
You know, all of us have made mistakes and like we've talked about we're all hypocrites in some way. Yeah. I, I think, I think that's where a lot of the, the peace and the freedom comes from. It's just like, there, there is something too, uh, living a good life living life the right way, instead of just doing whatever you want.
There's so much emptiness in that, that, that I've experienced. And I know you have too. Yeah, for me, it was the piece of, of self control where I could, you know, when you don't have self control, you're. not really making your own choices. You're making choices out of either a pain or an addiction or something else.
But when you develop more self control, you're making more free choices and you just, you feel more free. Like you're actually choosing it and you're not just being run by some pre-programmed thing that something you're running away from or running to, or. You know, trying to find a magic pill for your life.
So, no, that's so good that self-mastery leads to freedom. I, I love that you obviously are very dedicated to continuing to heal and to grow, but you've made a lot of progress and it's inspiring to, to look at you and look at your life. And so, uh, yeah, I'm just curious, how is your life different now contrast that if you would, for us start with friends and support.
So, I mean, it used to be a chore trying to make friends. Like, I really didn't even know how to make friends. And when you, when you get out of like a college environment or, you know, some place where it's really easy to meet people, and I sometimes when you're a parent, you can make friends through your kids, but I had a kid who wasn't very social, so it kind of blew that for me.
sure. And so. You know, you don't realize sometimes how hard it is cuz when you're younger, it just seems kind of natural. You know, you're either on a sports team together or you go to school together or whatever and it just happens. And then when you become adults, so, you know, I moved here and it was actually really good for me to make a move as an adult, cuz then I had to work harder at it.
And you know, I'm on the internet Googling how to make friends, how to be a good friend, which sounds really absurd, but it's pretty cool. They had some good advice on there. So, but now that I've done some healing, even in the last two, three years, things just really started to fall into place. So naturally like, like effortless, completely effortless.
I'm just astounded. I had struggled so much and that it's now so effortless. It just kind of blows my mind. So, so that's in, you know, in the area of my marriage, you know, I had a very contentious marriage for probably 17 of the now 20 years. And we had some huge healing in our marriage. I would say miraculous, you know, that happened through my healing.
So the thing is, people always say, well, you can't change someone. You can't change. You know, you can't change the other person and that's true. But the thing you can do is change yourself and. A lot of times in a marriage, you're like, well, I'm not the problem. They're the problem. Why, why am I gonna go to therapy?
You know, the thing is everybody has some sort of childhood wound, not just adult children of divorce. Everybody does, you know, so I went to therapy and worked on myself and then you come back and you're behaving slightly different. You're just, you're healing. You're, you know, you're a different person and people have no.
But to react to that because we react off of each other and what we're giving each other mm-hmm . And I had started learning boundaries without even really having a name for that. It was just, you know, kind of speaking my mind and not, not holding things in and just all sorts of stuff, but, you know, my husband completely changed.
He did like 180 degree turn at one point, like was a completely different person. Wow. I mean, it was shocking to me from my healing. He, he shifted and changed as well. And we, you know, our marriage has improved tremendously. I'm also. More of a forgiving person. I used to hold grudges. Like for years I could hold a grudge.
I was the, I was the queen of grudges and , you know, making myself a victim. So I've lost that victim mentality and grudges and just, yeah, the depression's gone. I just have a lot more joy and beautiful. And I'm sure there's so much more that we could talk about when it comes to, to that. I, I did wanna go back to something you said before, uh, your depression, your, your, uh, seemingly chronic depression yeah.
Was just healed. Like, how did you do that? I, I think a lot of people listening right now are like, whoa, that's incredible. What happened there? Going into that a little bit more, if you would. Well, some of it's through therapy. I, I honestly think a large part of it was in healing of my marriage too, because that was causing me a lot of distress.
So. I'd say that's probably the biggest part of it. And the other thing is in, you know, when we talked about self discipline or self mastery, like trying to discipline my thoughts, for instance, if I would start going to a dark place, I mean, I would literally like, just stop myself and say, no, no, and you know, or whatever Satan be gone, whatever you have to tell yourself.
And I would just, I would stop that spiral of negative thoughts because that's just, it can really take a hold of you so easily. Um, so I, I really leaned on, on the church and the faith a lot for that to. To just kind of, yeah. Control my thoughts. Yeah. Not be a victim and it's not just not, it's not just a matter of like positive thinking.
You know, you really have to find the joy. Like in, in my marriage, there was a lot wrong and I had to learn how to trust all over again, trust my husband. And it wasn't just, I didn't have trust from being a child of divorce, which was there, but I also didn't trust him because he didn't fight fair. He wouldn't stay in the room and talk.
He would walk away from me. There was all sorts of very immature and harmful behavior that was going on. So when we were healing, like when he did his 180 turnaround, you know, he has a thing in business where it's like trust, but verify. And so it was kind of like that. I was like, well, when's the other shoe gonna drop?
When's he gonna change back like the Jacqueline hide to how he was or who he was and like, how can, how can someone change that radically? So it really took at least a year, maybe a little longer, but you know, at least a, a good year before I thought, wow, this is, this is really taking hold. He, this is real.
But in the meantime, like all these thoughts from the past would come up because like I said, I had lived a long, long time in a very bad marriage and I had to fight those thought. All the time and say, no, I'm, you know, I'm moving forward. I can, I can see with my eyes what's happening now. I can let the past go.
You know? And I don't need my mind to go there and remind me how bad it was, you know, mm-hmm cause it's cuz it's a new day and we're, and we're moving forward and I'm, I'm forgiving and I'm verifying that, you know, his actions are, are matching up with what he's saying and what I'm seeing. And. That was really, really difficult to try to kind of build trust where there was none.
Yeah. Not only that, but there, there was harm and there was yeah. All sorts of issues while that's incredible. I wanna go back and touch on relationships that it's appropriate that we're here now because I think something that's. So moving in your story, um, that, that you've explained to me is that, uh, a lot of.
The brokenness in your past was sexual in nature. Like you had a lot of sexual brokenness, but you've also found healing through your own sexuality, which is really beautiful in God's plan for sexuality, which is just amazing. You obviously grew up, you know, with the sexual revolution and there were just so there's so much confusion and so much misunderstanding, you know, on one end of the spectrum, there were people who were just living out their sexuality without any sort of limits or control.
And then on the other end, there were people who were, uh, very repressive and they looked down on sexuality. I thought it was bad and dirty and all this. So neither of those are right for anyone's listening, who like be confused. There is a middle ground and, uh, sex is good and beautiful, but it needs to be in its proper place.
Like you said so well before Sandy. Um, but yeah, if you would touch on that a little bit of how, yeah, just how that's played out in your own life and having made those mistakes and then now, uh, having found healing, especially in your marriage. Yeah. Well obviously, like I said before, you know, the. and then I don't wanna say like out of wedlock sex, but it was really just, you know, a sex where people were using each other and that kind of promiscuous sex was just so damaging.
So when I got married and we were having lots of problems also, and my husband too, I don't know, I think has some issues with feelings of being unloved or, you know, not having enough love. He needs a lot of, a lot of reassurance and a lot of attention. And anyways, so when we were having marital problems, you know, he was saying, well, everything's great.
Everything's great. Except for this, you know, we just need to work on this one point part of our marriage. And like I've said to other people, you know, you can't have. A hundred percent wonderful marriage over here, and then you have a bad sex life. It's like they go hand in hand. So, you know, he just wasn't able to see what I was seeing or understand, you know, kind of how bad our marriage was and that I was reacting to that.
Like, you know, how can I be attracted or be motivated to be with this person physically when they're treating me so badly, you. So the first therapy that we ever went to was a sex therapist. wow. And it was, it felt so forced. I really felt like I was being dragged there because I knew that there was more issues underneath and mm-hmm I thought this was kind of ridiculous, but I went, so that was interesting, but it didn't, it didn't ultimately help.
Okay. Yep. Yeah. Anyway, so, so when we were, when we finally went back to marriage therapy, I'd say, you know, maybe it was two, three years ago, and even that didn't help so much, but I did start to realize that I, I have an opinion about marriage, that, you know, how the sex goes is an indication of how the marriage is going.
You know, and, and I know a lot of people when my sisters and I started talking about this and she started talking to her friends, you know, there's quite a few people in married who have sex once a month. Or less. And it's, it's pretty interesting, but part of it with me is that I didn't understand how important it was.
Like I read this book called for women only, and it talks about the sexual needs of men, not just as a physical outlet, but how it really is part of their identity and their, their self-esteem, their confidence and everything wrapped up to it. And, you know, because I was in the habit of using men and them using me, you know, all I saw was.
Okay. It's just this physical part. Mm-hmm and it seemed kind of selfish. And I, especially cuz women usually don't have as much of a sex drive, so it just seemed kind of selfish on their part. And I had this, you know, idea of who men were and their sexuality, which really I kind of got enlightened by this book anyway.
Um, so yeah, we started, um, the, the funny thing is the therapist was trying to, you know, force us to kind of be more physical and, you know, let's draw, draw, um, days from a, a hat and we're gonna decide, and we're gonna schedule it and we're gonna do all this. And then at the time our relationship was so bad that that didn't really work out so well either mm-hmm but, um, it just, it really seemed like all the things that should have worked, you know, it's like going to therapy and going to a sex therapist and.
You know, let's have dates and let's, you know, pull names of the days of the week out of a hat and do all this. And, and it was just all really, really forced until we healed our relationship on a deeper level. You know, I do know that I, now I'm so much more, um, conscious of his needs sexually. Like I don't, I don't know how to say it.
Like I just, instead of like, oh, I have to do this duty, which sometimes, you know, wives feel it's more like, well, no, this is critical to him and his identity and his wellbeing. And so it's kind of, I've really shifted in my thinking about it. You know, if you love somebody and you're available to them, you know, emotionally and physically in marriage, you should be as well.
So, um, it's. . Yeah, I don't, I don't know what to say about that, but we, we definitely healed and I thought, I thought this is kind of my, my burden, because I had been so reckless with my body and my sexuality as a young person, I thought, you know, in the Catholic faith, a lot of times you talk about how your wound is your, is your path to healing or to salvation, or, you know, Absolut, things like that.
And so, so that's kind of how I looked at it. I'm like, we're really struggling in this area. You know, I don't know if it was caused by my past life or his past life or whatever, cuz he had some sexual sin in his first marriage, but whatever it is, this. Potentially the path forward. And so I kind of had to have a radical change in thought on that whole topic.
And I know people don't talk about that much either in marriage. So it's, it's probably an interesting, interesting topic. I'm glad you're talking about, because I think this needs to be said a lot of this stuff needs to be said. And what I've noticed too, in marriage is that, uh, from the women women's point of view, like what makes her want to have sex is emotional intimacy typically, right?
Yes. And for a man it's like, we just wanna have sex because we just wanna have sex. And that leads to emotional intimacy for us. Like we feel close to our wives because of that. So , someone's gotta start that, like the man has to make the effort to be emotionally intimate and then the, and the wife maybe perhaps needs to be a little bit more, not aggressive, but assertive.
You know, understanding, like you said, that, you know, her husband needs to be loved in this way, cuz so many men that sort of love language, physical touch and, and it's a team sport, right? It's not just one or the other. We both get on it together. Right. But I have noticed that, but what you're saying, so the men still do need, the emotional intimacy is just totally, it's just in a different order.
So, you know, it's definitely there and you know, I know that, you know, our sex life is not strained. You know, I realize how much. Yeah, actual intimacy. He feels from having, you know, that physical connection. And so there's definitely an emotional element to it for men as well. You know, it's a, they, they need to feel loved.
They need to feel attractive. They need to feel valued. I mean, it's just, you know, it's not just all about this physical thing. There's, there's a lot more to it emotionally. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I probably didn't say that as well as I could have. Like, what I was trying to say is like for the wives, emotional intimacy often leads to them wanting, having sex for men having sex alt often leads to them, wanting to be emotionally intimate with, uh, with their wives.
That's what I was trying to say. yes. Yes. So good. Was anything else that you would add on how, uh, the divorce affected. Your relationships, you touched on so many things already, but I just wanted to give you an opportunity to say any final thoughts on how, um, that had affected your relationships and even your marriage.
The one thing that I know is that I was very hopeless. A lot of times growing up I had was very cynical. I, I really didn't see any hope for my life. You know, cuz like we talked about earlier, I felt like this was my personality and all these faults I had and all, all these, you know, addictive behaviors and all the things that I couldn't change about myself for so many years.
And I just, I was really stuck in hopelessness. That's that's huge because it colors your whole life. You know, whether you have hope or don't have hope that you can change or things can be better, you know, because without hope what is there really? I don't know. yeah. Yeah. It was, it was big. I mean, I just, I'm just so grateful that.
I've had some healing that I've found the church that I found. Some things that work for me, cuz again, it was just, you know, it was getting from a practical point. Like my life's not working. I need to do something. I need something. Yeah. I don't know what it is. I definitely need something because this just can't continue the way it is.
It's it just, it wasn't workable. I mean, I know that sounds kind of like a practical way of thinking, but like really in practicality, like my life wasn't working. Absolutely. And, uh, yeah. That's where we live life in the practical , you know, they're like the abstract is important, but I I'm totally with you.
There it's like that. That's what really led me to change was just the emptiness that I felt. I was like, I don't wanna feel this way. I wanna be happy. Yeah. You kind of, kind of hit rock bottom or, you know, you make, you make a change, no matter how hard it is or whatever, you find a way to make a change because you realize that you deserve more and life has more to offer.
You wanna be a part of that, whatever that, whatever that life is, that's waiting for you. Yeah. And that could be so hard to believe when you're in the midst of like depression or just hopelessness and you're struggling and you feel broken. It's hard to believe, like there's even light at the end of the tunnel.
That life can be any different because often, like you said, we just fall into these cycles where maybe we maybe stop the reckless behavior for a little bit, but we kind of know in our bones, it's like, well, I'll be back soon. I'll be back to the drinking to sleeping around, to doing, you know, risky things to feel alive.
And, um, but, but you actually can have sustained change. Life can be better and different. And that's one of the things I love about your story. Sandy is, you know, you, you turn things around so much in your life by God's grace. Of course. I know you would say that, but yes, it, it's just amazing. And so, yeah, I, I'm so grateful for you.
Being here, uh, coming on the show, doing this long interview and just opening your heart to, to me and to everyone who's listening. I know it's gonna help so many people, if people wanna get in touch with you, how do they do that? Yeah, they can email me at Sandra Howlet, 25, icloud.com, a N D H O w L E T T five.
icloud.com. I know I have one blog that's coming out on life, giving wounds website and hopefully more so they'll be able to see some of my writing on there. Awesome. And I know you've written for us too, so we'll make sure to throw that into the show notes. If anyone wants more from, from Sandy. Thank you so much, Sandy.
Again, I just wanna give you the last word. What, what encouragement would you give to, to a young person listening right now who does feel very broken? Who feels stuck in life? Uh, because of the trauma they've been through in their own family. What, what words of encouragement would you give to them? I would just say never, ever, ever, ever give up.
that's all I can say that things can be better. Things will be better. Just figure out what you need to do to help your own healing. It doesn't happen on its own. You have to work hard. You have to work hard at relationships at marriages at healing. Healing's hard, it's vulnerable, you know, it's not, it's not easy.
People like to just. Think that they can forget things and move on, but you know, like, you know, in my story, if there's stuff there, you don't just move on, you have to deal with it and then you can move on. So, you know, take that. Big jump and, and deal with the hard stuff. And then, you know, hopefully it'll become less and less hard and you can have a beautiful life.
One thing that stuck with me that Sandy touched on is that feeling of hopelessness. I think we all face it, especially those of us who come from broken families. I know I've dealt with it personally and it's truly debilitating. And so when we feel that way, when you feel that. Just remember that there is always hope.
There's always hope, especially when things feel impossibly hopeless. Remember that night is darkest just before the Dawn. So hang in there. It can get better. In fact, if you work to heal and grow yourself like Sandy did, you will get better. You won't be able to avoid suffering in your life, but you will be better able to handle them.
If you heal and grow and you'll feel freer, you feel happier and you'll feel whole again. And I remember the words of GK Chesterton, who said hope, means hoping when everything. Seems hopeless. A question for you to think about is what's the simplest most basic thing that you can do where you are right now in life to begin or continue healing and growing.
Just one thing doesn't need to be huge. In fact, it's more important than you just take action, even if it's really small than doing something monumental. Because if we never act our lives, won't get better. We won't get better. So we need to take action. We have to put the work in. So what's the simplest most basic thing that you can do right now, where you are to begin or continue healing and growing.
One simple thing that we recommend is sharing your story. One of the benefits of sharing your story, that it's actually healing on a neuro biological level, it makes your brain healthier. And studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their. Are less depressed.
They're less anxious, they're healthier, they're happier. And if you share that story, either in writing or through talking to someone with someone else, that's additionally healing for your brain on a neurobiologic level, it makes you more whole, and by sharing your story, also, you give guidance and hope to people who may be going through the same things that you are, or you did in the past.
And so if you wanna share your story in written form, you can do that. Go to restored ministry.com/story. Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/story on there. You'll fill out a form. It'll guide you in telling a concise version of your story. It'll take a little bit of time to do that, and then we'll turn it into an anonymous blog article.
And so we'd love to hear your story. Go ahead and share your story today@restoredministry.com slash story, the resources mentioned are on the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 47. Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful. Please share this podcast with someone, you know, who could use and always.
You are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.
