Divorce Made Me Feel Forgotten and Alone

1 minute read.

This story was written by Christina Larsen at 28 years old. Her parents divorced when she was 14. She gave permission for her story to be shared.

Her STORY

My mom pulled me out of class when I was 14 to tell me she and my father were getting divorced because he had an affair.

HOW THE DIVORCE MADE her FEEL

Forgotten, alone, terrified, sad, lonely, depressed, angry, rageful, confused, desperate

HOW THE DIVORCE IMPACTED her

I started self-harming, had a string of abusive relationships, unsafe sex with random people, drug addiction, suicidal thoughts and attempts, mental illness, stints in rehabs and psych units, failed friendships, constant relocation, never feeling home/wanted/loved, always seeking parental support in other older people, inconsistent work life, zero family support, parentification, parental alienation, horrible at setting boundaries, codependency, time/money/energy in my own therapy.

ADVICE FOR SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS JUST SEPARATED OR DIVORCED

It’s not your fault

Your parents may not be the best people to go to for help anymore

Seek support elsewhere

Get help

---

Are you interested in sharing your story with Restored?  If so, click the button above. Sharing your story can help you begin healing. 

Be assured: Your privacy is very important to us. Your name and story will never be shared unless you give explicit permission.

#103: How Does Your Body and Brain React to Trauma? | Patricia Scott, LPC, PhD Candidate

What happens inside your brain and your body when you endure trauma?

Surprisingly, there’s actually a predictable way that your body and mind responds to trauma. In this episode, we break down each response with a trauma therapist. We also discuss:

• How her parents’ divorce impacted her

• Is healing trauma even possible? If so, what does it take to heal?

• How to apologize the right way

Share your story

Find a therapist

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Book

  • 101 Questions to Ask Before You Get Engaged | H. Norman Wright

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

What happens inside your brain and your body. When you endure trauma, it might surprise you. But there's actually a really predictable way that your body and your mind responds. And in this episode, we'll break that down. We'll break down each reaction with a trauma therapist. We also discuss how her parents' divorce impacted her. We asked the question is healing trauma even possible. And if so what does it take to heal it? We touched on some really interesting facts about human development too. It's really important stuff to know if you want to heal and grow and thrive in life. We even discussed parenting and this stuff is relevant even if you're not a parent or you won't be for the next 10 years and how to apologize the right way and finally share for some encouragement and advice to anyone who feels broken and stuck in life. So, keep listening. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation or broken marriage so you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host Joey Panelli and this is episode 103. My guest today is Patricia Scott. She is a licensed professional counselor certified in trauma therapy and a phd candidate at Ducane University in counselor education and supervision. She graduated from Franciscan University of Steubenville with her master's degree in Clinical mental Health Counseling and from Argos University with a master's degree in sport and exercise, psychology. Prior to that, she completed her bachelor's degree in psychology, philosophy and theology at Franciscan University. You heard that right? A triple major. She served as an adjunct professor of psychology and social work at Franciscan University and adjunct faculty member at Ducane University. After treating clients as a therapist, she now works on the management side of a counseling practice as the director of data management and analytics. Petty loves to play volleyball, spend time with her family and close friends and most of all play with her nieces. Uh she lives in Boulder Colorado with her dog, Mr Darcy. So Patty is brilliant if you can tell and that's a good friend of mine. I'm just so excited for you to learn from her. Uh In this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And so if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening to this podcast for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast. So wherever you're at, glad you're here. And if you don't believe in God, my challenge to you, is this just listen with an open mind even if you skip or take out the God parts. You're still gonna benefit a lot from this episode. And since we recorded this in person too, you might hear her dog in the background. So just be aware of that. Here's our chat, Patricia. Welcome to the show. Thank you or Patty. I might refer to you as Patty. It's really good to have you. I wanted to have you on the show for a while and as we usually do on the show, let's just dive right in. How old were you when your parents separated and divorced? I was a junior in college when it officially happened. And I say officially, I found out my sophomore year of college, my mom had told me that her intention was to wait until my younger brother went to college to divorce my dad. So I knew a whole year ahead of time. So it officially happened once my younger brother was a freshman. So that would be my junior year of college. Was that kind of a burden? It was, it was, um, I was thinking about, I was reflecting on that today and just thinking, you know, what are the reasons I felt like I could have said something. I should have said something and really it comes down to just a few scenarios. Either I tell this important information and things get worse because he didn't know or I tell him he makes an effort or they both make an effort. Things get better or I tell him and I see that he makes no effort and it's heartbreaking. Um But either way I felt like being told that before it happened, put a lot of pressure to build an alliance to my mom because it was this big thing that I was told not to say anything. So having to hold on to that, I think it, it did burden me and pressured me into an alliance that I didn't want to have any alliance. I mean, they're my parents. I love them equally and that's not my information to hold. It's not my information to know. So no, that's difficult. And you know, I could see from your mom's perspective, too kind of want to prepare you. But at the same time, it's yeah, there is a burden to carry around both and the aspect of wanting to inform your dad. But also probably your brother too, knowing that kind of they were waiting for him to kind of move out and that's a lot to carry. So, ok, and I got the impression that I was the only one who was told, I'm not sure. So I'm not sure if I was being told to prepare me for it or if I was being told because she wanted to tell somebody and your child is just not the appropriate person to tell. So true. I'm glad you said that because I think there are a lot of parents listening to who are going through a lot of messiness in their marriages and trying to figure out what to do next. And I think it's important to remember that Children are not meant to be emotional confidants or not meant to kind of fill the role of a spouse or even to become a parent. And it's so easy to do. Like I get why it's done, but it's so damaging, especially when you play that out over years, like ruins, the relationship creates a really unhealthy dynamic and it becomes really sad. I've seen situations where the kids just don't want to talk to the parents at all years later. And it's how sad. It's almost as if every conversation is approached with a new hesitancy because you don't know if this is going to become a conversation about you and dad or you and mom, you just don't know. So it feels like every conversation is all of a sudden unsafe to have because it's so easy because you, you shared a life with these people. This is your family and the simplest of things is not doing the dishes or not doing the preferred way or not cleaning your room. You just never know what can lead to a conversation. Oh, I remember your mom or your dad let you do this and everything can turn so quickly. Yeah. No, I hear you. And we must develop these multiple personalities in the sense that we need to be one person around, like dad, one person around mom, one person around like maybe certain relatives or friends. And it can be really challenging to juggle all that. I know, man, there's so many heartbreaking stories of kids who literally had to juggle their lives between two homes and then everything else that comes along with that like bringing different bags to school and all that good stuff. So it's not good stuff. it's heavy stuff and uh yeah, it's, it's tragic, but I'm glad you said you love your parents because I know, um there's sometimes people get the impression that if you speak honestly about what you've been through that somehow you're putting them down or condemning them or saying that you don't love them. But I, I usually kind of cheekily ask, you know, do you hate your parents? And you already answered the question? And that's, yeah, it's, you know, we love our parents. Um, but in order to, I think to, to heal and grow, we need to be honest about what we've been through and we can do that in a way that still honors them. I am, I think the love I have for them has deepened in a sense because I've seen them, they've become more human and as I've grown older, I understand what it means more to be human and to be fallen. So I think being able to reflect on that each year, not that I make an active effort to reflect on each year but each year, like, you know. Yeah, exactly. There's, you know, it always comes up in some way it comes up or I think about it or a conversation happens and it just, that gets brought up. So, seeing more of their humanness and growing up and understanding nobody is perfect. So still it doesn't invalidate the good things they did. As a parent it doesn't take away or make worse the negative things that happened. It just makes it more human and making it more human is really humbling to see myself progress as a fallen human. So it's almost as if I understand them a little bit better and I not that I sympathize or I have compassion for it. I don't think I ever would and I don't think, I think it's ok to not just seeing it, their humanness helps me grow in love for them. No, that's beautiful and no, I could say, you know, being married and having a baby girl and you know, being a parent, it definitely opens your eyes more to you definitely can understand what your parents were going through. But at the same time, you can still kind of hold that standard up and say like no, what happened was damaging. It was difficult, it was in some cases even wrong. Yeah, you can say both of those things at the same time. So I'm curious how did all that affect you, we talked a little bit about it. But how did that play out in, you know, the years that followed? Honestly, I think there was some of God's grace at work in the timing of it, even though I found out as a sophomore and I didn't want to know that initially, it did make me more angry and anytime I would come home during that year and I was, I was more anxious because I was just waiting to find out that papers had been presented or there have been discussions with lawyers finding things out, just waiting to have this burden lifted from me. I do think there was graces in it though. I think waiting until the last kid was out of the house and in college was a smart choice. So even though you're going to do this monumental, you know, damaging thing, having an appropriate sense of timing or respect for the development of your Children and you know, with the timing of it, I think makes a difference. And so we were out of the house, we didn't have to see what happened. So I didn't, I don't know what happened on a day to day basis. None of us did because even though they were living in the same house and they were going through this divorce, none of the kids were there in the house. Now we all saw what led up to it. So when we heard the divorce, you know, I was like, oh, well, that makes sense. Like finally kind of thing. So I do think there were some graces. I, I can see that I was definitely angry and anxious. I, I think that was more leading up from a sophomore year when I found out it was going to happen to when it actually did happen and then when it did happen, I felt a big sense of relief just not because it was happening, but because I didn't have to hold that information anymore. So after that, I think I more felt a sense of relief and I was curious to know how things would happen. Whose house would I be coming home to for Christmas or Thanksgiving? You know, I didn't know that information yet and it wasn't, it wasn't figured out. So I think having it where I was away at college, it did help and I think that minimized it. I think there was a lot of safety nets there because I had a community. I had my faith. I had things to fall back on. I had school as a significant distraction and that was my vocation at the time. So I would have to really, really think and see like what were the immediate effects of it during that time when it was going on? I mean, the divorce officially, all the paperwork in courts going back and forth just ended this year over a decade later. Oh, my goodness. I didn't know that. Ok. And we're good friends for everyone listening. Yeah, I didn't, I mean, there was, I thought a lot of the stuff was over. So, I mean, the divorce itself was done but then the battles for, am I getting paid enough? You know, like going into those things, you only have so many years. So obviously it's half of the marriage in years. And so that finally is over and that, so all I would hear about is the court battles, blah, blah, blah. So now that's done and I don't have to hear that anymore. So there's a lot of relief in that I'm sure for everyone involved. But I could see especially for you and yeah, no, that sense of relief I think makes a ton of sense. And I've heard that from other people too because I remember one young woman saying, you know, her mom approached her and told her that she wanted to divorce her dad and kind of put her in a weird spot. She didn't know what to say to that. But one thing she knew was she just want the fighting to stop. And so I totally get that sense of relief immediately, especially. Was there anything else that you can kind of tie back to? Yeah, just the breakdown of your family and the divorce and everything that maybe played out years later. I mean, there's some major things I would say that play out later. But they played out in the time they played out during their marriage. So from a younger age, I obviously had a love for our faith. I had a love for theology. I had a love for church teaching. So when I first learned what marriage was learned this, this is great Sacrament. And I remember talking to it about my, with my siblings and my parents. When I say siblings, I don't mean all of them. I mean one sibling in particular just to clarify. So I would talk to about to my older sibling uh because she was also very active in our youth group at the same parish. And so I remember bringing it up to her. I'm like, oh, I just learned about this and she was like, oh yeah, our uh some of this was my mom's second marriage. Her first marriage was Sacramental. It was never an nulled because she felt at that time she was so young. She didn't have a full understanding of it that if it was to be annulled, it would be as if she didn't exist. And so that was her conception of that at the time. Obviously, that's not the case, that's a very harmful thinking and that really should be addressed and it just wasn't addressed in a healthy way. So my parents' marriage was a civil marriage. So as soon as I heard that all I could think was man, I don't want either one of my parents to be in mortal sin. I want them to divorce and knowing that I had, I think I had that thought probably around sixth or seventh grade was the first time I thought that but they should not be married. Like it's not even a sacrament. It's a valid marriage but it's not sacramental. My mom has been living in mortal sin in this and my dad's participating in it as the sin of scandal. I want this to be over and thinking, you know, it doesn't take away any of our identities as kids in a family. It doesn't take away any of that. I just wanted it to be done because I didn't want either one of them to be hurting their soul in that way. And it was very difficult to the only person I tried to articulate that to was my youth minister and my older sister, I never said that to parents. But I do remember feeling that sense of like, oh like, ok. And I remember after that would be like mom, you want to go to confession with me, but you never know if someone's going to realize that level or degree of sin and actually bring that to confession or want to, you know, have that, that cleansing from it. So knowing that it definitely put a different filter on relationships, it put a different filter on what I see marriage being and the intention behind it and having it being sacramental and the value of that as I was growing up more in high school years, not seeing what I would consider a healthy marriage, seeing more fights. I was very hesitant to get into any kind of relationship with people because I thought that's all it was. This is just someone that you fight with regularly and they just can't go anywhere like they have to come back. You know, that's kind of what my conception was of it a little bit like, ok, this is someone you have kids with, you get to fight with them all the time. But I realize as an adult, all I saw was the fighting. I didn't see the resolution. And that's something as an adult, as a therapist. Whenever I talk to people, I said the most important thing in my opinion that you can do as a parent is resolve conflict in front of your kids because so frequently we all learn how to fight. We all learn how to fight fair, we learn how to fight unfair, you know, I mean, we learn how to backstab but we don't learn how to resolve. And that is the most difficult thing. Like we rarely, probably rarely hear how to even properly apologize to someone. And now that's such a big emphasis in my life. Like when I apologize to someone, I have like a specific formula that I follow for even making an apology because it was something I had to really learn to dive into because I never saw that example through my parents. And that was hard, like realizing that like first time in the inkling England 6th, 7th grade, going into high school, seeing it more and then have developing, you know, more deep relationships with friends, seeing the importance of it and then going to their houses and seeing that their parents had such great relationships and they were playful, you know, things like what like what was in their water today, like what is going on here? So seeing that is a big gap in the knowing that something is missing in my life and something is missing in their marriage and it's not healthy, like there's something unhealthy here. So I had to do a lot of observation of other families and other married couples to learn what it is. And through God's Providence when I went back to school at Francisca, and I lived with a family, the most amazing family who they really taught me what it is to be a Catholic family and have a sacramental marriage. I mean, they're, they're beautiful. So I think they kind of were like the positive influence that kind of took away a lot of the negative effects. I mean, it influenced every single influence relationships I had from friendships to romantic interests. It affected everything of not knowing and thinking, ok, this person is just going to fight with me and leave me you know, how long do I have with this person? Because they're probably just going to leave me whether it was a friend or not. And that was, that was a definitely a hard thing to have to think of. Like, how would you enter any sort of relationship? I know I felt the same way. I remember as like a 12, 13, 14 year old, like in the years that followed my parents' separation and later divorce. I was like, I will never get married. Like just like you felt, I was like, if this is where it leads, why in the world would I want to put myself through this? Because it was super painful for me even from the outside. And then I, you know, was able to think through like, well, it must be really painful for them. I don't know what it's like, but it must be really painful. So why would I want to put myself through that? So, yeah, and I love what you said about observing, you know, healthier relationships and how that, you know, it sounds like it gave you hope and it also kind of taught you well, this is what it looks like, this is what it should look like. And I know that was super helpful for me and we've heard that trend a ton on the show and the interviews we've done. So it's really, really beautiful. I want to go back to the apology formula. You got me really intrigued. I know everyone's like ears lit up when you said that. So what is your formula if you're willing to share? Yeah. So and this is not, I don't have the book references. It's upstairs in my library somewhere. So when you are apologizing to someone, you need to acknowledge what it is, you did and you need to name it specifically. So it's not just saying, I'm sorry that you feel bad. I'm sorry that upsets you. Well, what is the that of that statement apologizing for their feelings? And you can't do that? Your feeling, your feelings are your own. I can't control how you, I mean, I can influence and anticipate what your feelings might be through my actions. And so that is part of my responsibility, however, I don't have full responsibility over your emotional reaction. That's yours. So when we apologize to someone, you're like, I'm sorry that made you upset. Ok, great. That's not an apology. The apology is discussing what that is. So when I apologize to someone, I want to make sure that I go over the exact action that I believe I was wrong in doing or was unjust because it's not always something that you're actively doing wrong. I think it sometimes can also be when you're not being just towards another person which could be that you neglected to act or you acted in a way that could potentially be harmful or you're just wrong with something, you know, you could say something that wasn't factual in the heat of a moment and it was inappropriate to say so that I think owning up to the specifics of what it is, you are acknowledging you did wrong then recognizing how either you anticipate or you think not anticipate again, that would be worse. But how you see it affected them. Whether or not your reflection on their reaction to it is accurate or not. That's not the really important thing. It's acknowledging that you, it's a way of seeing them of understanding. Yes, this is, I have been acknowledging what it is. I did wrong. This is how it affected you. At least I could see this is how it affected you. And this is why I really don't want to do that again. You know, you saying something I suppose not say I really, I couldn't stand your shirt and I made a terrible comment about it. Is this an actual statement? Right? I just kidding. No, that's a lovely color. So I might say, you know, Joey, I'm really sorry. I made that comment about your shirt. It was really inappropriate and disrespectful for me to say. And I can imagine how disrespected you may have felt and I don't want you feeling that way because I do respect you and I do care about this relationship and I wouldn't want to have you think that I don't care about you. So I'm really, I'm really sorry that in the heat of the moment I disrespected you in that way and that was wrong and I will do my best to try and not, you know, make a comment like that. So adding a little bit of um and not just saying, I'm sorry, like everyone can say, I'm sorry, not everyone can apologize. An apology is really what repairs a relationship and that's something when I go back to what I said, I heard my parents say, I'm sorry. Tons of times. I don't think I ever heard them apologize. Oh, ok. And so that's something, that's something I had to learn over time. And when I actually started practicing it, it is tough. I don't want anyone listening to this thinking that following the formula that I just did is easy. It is so incredibly difficult. Like I'm getting goose bumps, just think about how difficult it is to do. And there have been many times where it brings me to tears just because you feel the weight of it. It's almost kind of a pseudo confession to someone who's not a priest. You're really acknowledging what it is and taking responsibility and giving that action a name. And when we give something a name, we can take ownership of it and we can do something about it. It gives us a new found power over it. So that's really good. Yeah. It's very difficult to apologize. It's easy to say. I'm sorry. It's difficult to apologize. Yeah. No, that's so good. And, yeah, I think one of the things that I struggle with when it comes to apologies is there's situations where, like I was genuinely trying to do the right thing or I thought I was doing, you know, what would help that person and then there's like, either a misunderstanding or it's seen in like, a bad light and that gets really frustrating. It's like, I don't want to apologize in that moment. Like, no, no, I was actually trying to do the right thing. So that could be tricky. So any advice there for people listening who are, you know, they literally feel like no, no, like I was literally trying to help and I did something that was then perceived as harmful or whatever the thing I think with that it's, we do need to be careful of what we say, the reason you're a what it is you're apologizing for because if you genuinely did not commit an offense, you did not do something wrong. You did not do something unjust, then really what you're doing is is making a comment or having a conversation to repair that relationship because I, I don't think we should start apologizing for things when we didn't do something wrong or when we weren't unjust. So if your action, whether it was because you think you were doing the right thing, if you were genuinely doing something that was correct. And right. And just to do, you don't apologize for doing something. Right. And just, we apologize for doing something that was wrong. So I think having that distinction is really important and that's how we would approach it because it's a different type of conversation. If it's the conversation where you did do something, just, it just didn't turn out the way you wanted and it had a negative impact on them or negative influence on, on the person. That's a conversation of repair and bringing up the intention of this is why I thought this was correct. I can see perhaps I didn't go about it in a way that was going to be positive. And so I can see how maybe I did, I could have approached it differently. And the reason I'm even bringing this up is because I do care so much about you. I wanted to do right by you. I wanted to help you. And so in my perspective, I thought I was doing that. I can see that perhaps I was incorrect. I was wrong in thinking that but again, you're not apologizing for what you did. If you didn't do something unjust, then we don't, we shouldn't apologize for doing something that was correct to do. We can apologize for how we approached it. Perhaps it could have been something that you actually talked to the person about first before you did it or maybe it could have been something that you acted on it out of, you didn't use proper prudence or temperance and you acted too quickly and you didn't reflect on the situation enough. So, in that sense, you can bring that up. I just, I don't personally, I don't think, and that's tough. It's really tough on the receiving end because you want to hear that someone say like I was wrong. But when they think about it too, if you didn't do something unjust and you were not wrong, you should not be apologizing for it because you didn't. There's nothing to apologize for so that it's more a conversation to repair. Yeah. No, that's good. And I think, um yeah, I think that's freeing because, you know, I, I think at times as humans were falling, we can be malicious, we can be nasty. But a lot of times I think there's frustration in relationships where it's like there's just misalignment like you thought the person wanted this, but they actually wanted that and they were kind of put off by you trying to do the first option, you know. So I've definitely seen that play out. I love what you said about the resolution though. And that's something you taught me actually. And that I've tried to live out not perfectly um bridge and I try to do that with Lucy, especially if she sees us, like having some sort of conflict and, you know, beyond just maybe a little bit of a dialogue, like if it's something that, you know, becomes more of a conflict, we want her to know like, hey, we're fine. Like mom and daddy, love each other. We're not, nothing's changing. We're just, you know, we just had a disagreement. We had a little bit of a conflict and trying to explain it and then saying, like, we love each other and being so young right now, uh we try to show that in some sort of a physical way like with a hug or a kiss or something. Yeah. Again, we don't do that 100% of the time. We're not perfect. I don't want to give people an impression. But uh it's definitely been very, very helpful and we've seen that also with her like she lights up when she knows that like everything is ok, like there's peace in the home because it's crazy how little kids like they become very perceptive to those things. And uh and so it's, it's really helpful for so parents listening, it's a great tip. It's something that like you see an immediate effect with. And so it's something you can implement right away. And I think to add on something to another layer, having a resolution or presenting one, it also needs to be developmentally appropriate to the child because if it's not, then it's going to go way over their head and they might not realize that was actually resold. That makes sense, you know, so in the way you display it. I mean, because you can show that to Lucy at, at a young age that she is, you know, you can role play things like even sharing basic things. You wanted a toy, she ripped it from your hands. You guys fight about it and then you have a resolution. You can physically embody that and that's something that will stick because then they will pick up on that. That's the correct behavior. Even if this is something I want and I rip this out. That's not OK. Here's how we resolve that. Whether it is that that gets removed from me and hand it back to whoever or I learn to share better, whatever the case may be, it's not always my dog is snoring in the back. Yeah. So having, having something that's developmentally appropriate as a resolution, I mean, obviously as kids get older, letting them hear those discussions to the point that's appropriate for them and again, to the degree that is appropriate for them just because someone has the capacity to understand the argument and all the, you know, the words that are being said does not mean they should get all the information. So even having resolution be presented because you can, you can go fight in your room, you can have the resolution be done in your room. In private, there needs to be an additional public display that's appropriate for your Children to hear because that's what you're teaching them if they saw the original discriminated. And I think that's, I think that's what's so powerful is that you don't have to do it perfect every time. That's why you don't need to do it in front of them every time you can go resolve it in private. But then when you're ready to come back out, you need to show that there's power in having a public display of a resolution. And I love what you said before too. You just never saw that side of it growing up and then you were exposed in other relationships and you learned it, which is beautiful and that's such a hopeful message to anyone listening right now, especially maybe you're going through your parents' divorce like in the moment and you're just in a like dark tough spot. There's a lot of hope at the end of the road, there's a lot of hope ahead. So keep your head up. Um Even if it is really, really painful and hard right now. So, yeah, I love that so much good stuff there. And like I said, it works. It's, it's really, really helpful and the more you practice, the better you get at it. I mean, even if you're doing it in private and you come out and you do a role play, you will only get better at resolving things and doing it publicly. I mean, there's no downfall to it. Yeah. No, 100% and it is, um, you need humility, kind of going back to that apology. And that's, I think that's the challenging part for me. I know that's pride is easy to, uh, it influences your behavior, actions and if you're not humble then, yeah, it can be just horrible for your relationship and I've certainly struggle with that. But, um, when you are humble it's beautiful and it ends up making the relationship and it's, it's a good reminder to your kids that you're on the same team. Like the team is your family. And even, even greater than that is the priority of the marriage that you two are on the same team as a married couple as parents. And then your whole family is on the same team. So, when we don't have that, I mean, that's something I didn't have. I didn't feel like our family was a team. I didn't feel like my parents were a team. I could play off of them like a fiddle. Not that I don't play the fiddle. Who knows? Maybe I could have. I tried, but I would get a yes from this one and a no from the other. And I would play that all day easily and I knew exactly which scenarios to go to which parent for, to get the answer I wanted because I knew they were not a team. And so that's just, that was definitely a hard thing to learn. And that was something that I could see influence my relationships, even friendships if I had a disagreement. Stonewall. No, it was so much easier just to cut someone out and not try and resolve it because I didn't know how to resolve anything. Yeah. How would you? You never, I mean, some things, I mean, I don't know. I wouldn't call it a supernatural gift. Although, and I don't mean supernatural in like a hero sense. I mean, supernatural is a grace that was given to me. I felt very, very protective of friends. And so even if someone got bullied, I would go and confront the bully and say, hey, that was not ok. What you did, I want you to come apologize. And so I would, I would do that. I started doing that in like fourth grade when bullying became like, you know, more prominent when we get to fourth grade. And so I just hated bullies. And I mean, I certainly, I know there was comments I said that I can think of to this day. I'm like, man, that was really rude. So if I ever came across that person, I probably would apologize for the things, some things I said, oh, even now, but it was just, I learned that it was so much easier to cut someone off instead of doing the hard work and no one wants to know that they're wrong. No one wants to think they're wrong. No one wants to hear they're wrong. We all are very prideful and having a sense of pride is a good thing, but it, obviously it can go too far, too quickly when you're not willing to submit yourself. I mean, especially this is your spouse, you're on the same team, not having the willingness to submit for the sake of your family, for the sake of your marriage, for the sake of Christ. Like for, there's so many things that go into it just for the sake of goodness, you know, for the sake of growing and becoming a better person. I think it's extremely, that's probably one of the most difficult things to actually live out. Yeah. No, I, I can agree with that. Let's stay here for a second because we have some parents or people who will be parents, future parents and they may be wondering, I know, I kind of wonder this. Now you're making me think, what do you do as a parent when kids try to, like, pit you against each other? Because they're so good at it because they're so good. I remember doing that as well as a kid. And so, yeah, what do you do in this situation? Have a game plan going into it? We all know kids are going to do this. Even if, even if you're a great example of a marriage, kids are going to do that because they're not going to be satisfied with a no answer, no kid wants to hear it. Can I have a dessert? No, if you said that I was going to go to mom or dad and I'm going to figure out who's going to say yes. And then I'm going to go to that person to get the answer I want next time. So having a game plan ahead of time and just having the default statement of saying I need to talk to mom about it. I need to talk to dad about it and just doing that and knowing that if that becomes your go to phrase, they will stop asking you, they will stop asking you because they know they can't play that game with you. And even if your kids are doing it now where they're pitting you against each other, you can start doing it. Now, it's going to be an uphill battle. It, it absolutely will, it will get worse before it gets better. And it could be that your spouse gives in more because it is tough. It is tough to maintain a new behavior, especially when you know that behavior is going to be a painful growth. You're gonna have some significant growing pains for your kid, but it will get, it will get better if all of a sudden they realize, ok, every time I have come to you with this, you said I need to talk to mom or I need to talk to dad first and not even giving them an answer. And that's, that's the important thing is not giving them even your preliminary answer. Cut it out completely and say no, I need to go talk to the other parent and then we'll give you an answer. So please don't ask me about it again until I have a chance to talk to mom or dad. That's so important because if you give them a preliminary example or the preliminary answer, they think that that's going to be the final answer. And so they might become even more upset if that's not the final answer. So it's better just to leave that out completely and say nope, I need to talk to mom or dad about it first. So like a scenario I know with Lucy, she's so funny. She has this like motion that she does when she wants ice cream. Like we try not to give her too much ice cream but she like imagine licking ice cream. She does that she goes and that means like I want ice cream. And so one of the mistakes I'm realizing I've made is I say, well, it's ok with me. If it's ok with mom, it would be better to say because then all the pressure is on her and then she'll be actually disappointed, but it's better to say like let's talk. I need to talk to mom. I don't know yet if you can not talk to mom. So OK, let's get him learning. Thank you even saying that, that little piece. He said, I don't know if you can yet because even that statement signals to the kid, it's up to mom. I see because you have just acknowledged that you don't have the answer and that you have to ask mom because mom holds all the power. Ok. Yeah, because then you're basically putting all the power and pressure because then because the kid is going to question, well, why don't, you know, I'm asking you, you're my parent, you know, so obviously depends on the cognitive ability of the kid. But that is something that they will catch on to. I mean, if I'm able to catch on to it in a second now, kids, kids get that so much quicker. I mean, they will believe your behaviors so much faster than they believe your words. I mean, they will just read that for days. So it, it even though it as difficult of a suggestion as it is just not giving any kind of answer and saying I need to talk with mom about it first, then I'll let you know, please don't ask me about it again till then. That's it. I mean, something different in the dynamic of I have my nieces spend the night with me usually once a week and I have done that since I moved here in 2020 which has been amazing. I love being able to give their parents a date night because I think it's so important for spouses to have a designated date night and have it be as routinely as possible. So they have it usually once a week, at least during the school year, it's always once a week and when they're at my house, because I have seen at their house that dessert is such a problem whether they haven't eaten enough to get dessert or they don't get the dessert of the choice or they misbehave. And so dessert is taken away. I mean, it is, I mean, it's just a nightmare. It's like a nuclear bomb just went off in the house. And so in seeing that I was like, nope, that does not fly in my house. I will not put up with it. So we do not do dessert in my house, period at all. They never and so it took a little bit for them to because initially we did and it started off with they would never finish it. So they would insist on having their own. We would get like a little mug cake. So it's like an individual cake. You put the mix in your cup and then you put in the microwave and you just eat a little cake out of your own little personal size mug, but they would never finish it. So I was like, ok, well, I'm not going to try and get you to finish your dessert just for the sake of finishing it. I'm just going to take it away because if you really, all you had was one bite. So you two can either decide to share or we just won't have it. They didn't want to share. So I said, ok, we're just not going to have desserts anymore, then that's fine. So they stopped expecting it and it's never a problem. So now if I give them a dessert, it's like this huge surprise. And so now you can ask my sister this, I think it was two weeks ago when I brought them home, she just sat at the other end of the counter and she goes, so I'm just curious, is there anything that mom and dad can do differently to help you listen to us better because you seem to listen to Peter so, so much better. There's never a problem. You don't throw temper chances for her. What is it? And it was her Aunt Leila's answer was very interesting. She said, well, Peter Rat doesn't give us warnings. She says sometimes when you give us a warning, I get anxious and I think I'm going to make a mistake. And so I get more emotional. If I do make a mistake, this is coming from a seven year old. This is pretty profound stuff for a seven year old to be saying in Lucy, you know, she chimes and she goes, yeah, parent doesn't give us warnings. She just tells us what happened or if we did something wrong we resolve it and we move on like there is no warning, there is a correction and that's it. So, I mean, it is the case when I thought I was like, man, do I ever really good warnings? Like no, actually I, I really don't. And so we don't have issues and so having different set of expectations and being prepared for those, like not simply not having dessert, period. There's no expectation for it. So there's no temper tantrum. There's no emotions around dessert. If you get it, it is a genuine treat. So it's never about you have to finish your food. You don't, you can't merit it at my house. And that seems to help. The master is a little tiny. I know dessert is very, very small, but for little kids, it can be really big deal when you're trying to get them to go to bed. So it's just an easy thing to do. I mean, it's not really easy because obviously if they're so used to it, it, it takes a long time to get out of that habit. But it is possible. I don't even remember where that tangent started. This is good. No, I appreciate you going into this and I'm learning and I know everyone listening is learning too and just to be clear to everyone listening, I do not have Children. I have nieces and nephews and I adore them. So I love being the thing that they get to come hang out with. Yeah. But now you have all your background and studying human development and helping people in that way too. So that's certainly helpful. And no, this is really good stuff. Going back to your story a bit. We were talking about just how your upbringing and what you experienced at home impacted you personally and we got into your relationships. Was there anything else you add about your relationships? Whether it's your friendships, dating relationships that you saw, like, were affected by the, there was this little thing I didn't realize how big of a deal it was until I started dating someone in a very serious way. And I can see a serious future with holding hands. And the, and the reason was I never saw, I think I can count on one hand, the number of times I saw my parents hold hands. Yeah, exactly. And when I think about it, I'm like, man, that's when all the other functions are gone. When you can't be physically intimate with your partner. If you or your spouse, you can't have a conversation with them because maybe you're mentally, not there or you're sick and you can't kiss them. What's the one thing you can still do is hold hands and so never seeing that really growing up, I realized how, I mean, I'm also a physical touch person that's really important to me. So, seeing that that wasn't done and it's such a simple thing. And then when you see like old people holding hands, you're like, oh my gosh, they are just the cutest thing ever. Like you have to ask yourself, what is the reason I'm having that reaction to seeing some strangers hold hands or why do I find it so annoying? When I see a couple at a table who are just like following each other's hands, you're like, ok, guys eat your dinner, you know, but there's something really, I think there's something so powerful about that because I mean, our hands are very, very sensitive and we use them to speak, we use them to do day to day action. So we use, they're so profound. I mean, we wouldn't really be humans without our hands, you know, like obviously there's much more to that statement. This is just a very simple thing, but I didn't realize how important holding hands was until I met someone that I really, really want to spend a future with and thinking man, my favorite thing like when I and don't get to be around you, the one thing that I want to do is hold your hand and it's because I never saw it. And so I, I explained to him, you know, I really think the most important thing to me is to make sure that if we, if we're still together, if we get married, we have kids that we better hold hands, whether you are upset with me or not. If I reach for your hand and you deny holding my hand, like there will be hell fire running down. But I just think there's such importance in holding hands. Like because even if, even if kids are not comfortable hugging or they're not comfortable sitting next to you or they're not comfortable with any kind of physical touch. Generally, they might be ok with holding your hand. Like because it could be a safety thing like crossing the street. So they get used to holding your hand for some reason. So there's so much about holding hands that I think goes understated. Yeah. And I didn't realize that until I was an adult and then when I realized why it was, I realized I didn't see my parents hold hands. Yeah. OK. Now that makes so much sense. It's such a primal thing to I forget if this was in a talk or something. But when we're meeting someone for the first time too, you might have even taught me this. The, the act of like shaking a hand or showing your hands is actually on a subconscious level. Like we did have this conversation many, many years ago. It's like a signal of safety. It's like, oh, they don't have like a weapon again. It's like a primal thing, but they don't have a weapon in their hand. They're not trying to hurt me. They're giving their hand as like an extension of vulnerability and trust And so that makes sense. Why that would be that important to you? That's cool. Anything else that you would add about, kind of the impact on your relationships? I would say the intentionality of approaching relationships. So I'm just now entering into a relationship where I'm like, ok, I'm on my end. I'm like, 1000% positive. This is the person I want to marry and then having that hesitancy of, well, I've met lots of people who were wrong, who may have had that same thought. So how could this be different or how can I better prepare myself? Because, I mean, the last thing I want to do is think of what kind of letter would I write in an annulment to try like annulment process to say that I didn't know or that I wasn't prepared and I don't want to ever be in that position, you know, I mean, it's just, it's interesting because I, I mean, I didn't really know the annulment process until I met someone who had gone through it. And they had to have, they had to write their own witness statement, but they also had to have friends, either the person like the best man or someone at the wedding party or just someone who knew them intimately, they have to write in a statement as well to support that. Let's explain that a little bit for people who don't know what we're talking about. So, I annulment is saying that valid marriage was never, is it valid or sacramental marriage? Sacramental marriage was never created or I don't know what the right term there is. It never, it never take place. And so there was like an appearance, but there was some substance was missing, something was lacking essentially. And that's a longer conversation of like, well, what are the different property or what are the different things that need to be present? That's a separate conversation. But in this context, we're talking about, yeah, when you go through that process, you're essentially trying to explain why you think there were those things that were lacking that did not allow you to enter into a sacramental marriage. So that's what you're talking about when you're writing that statement. Yes. And I can't remember if it was in a movie or if I heard a story about some kind of mobster or gangster or something. I, I remember a story though that each time this person had gotten married that he would write a letter explaining that he really had no intention of being faithful, didn't want to marry this person, but wanted the appearance of it to be a sacramental. So they wrote a letter prior to the sacrament taking place so that when they wanted to get a divorce, they could because they had written this letter beforehand. And so I think that's kind of where I can't remember where this came from. But when I heard of that. I was like, man, it's that easy. It really is the intentionality of it. So I don't ever want to put myself into a position where I have to think back on a time that was positive because I don't think anyone really looks back at their, their wedding in that time of marriage prep thinking I should not get married. I mean, I think there are people and if that's the case, then there is grounds for annulment because obviously that is indicative of some kind of pressure or there was something withholding and not allowing them to express their full free will in that. And obviously, that's a condition for it. But thinking how, how best can I prepare myself for this to know that this is a good decision and not just a good decision, but a real decision, one that has firm grounding like I'm not just standing on sand. And so now like I'm going through a book that says, you know, 100 and one questions before you get engaged. And it's really because you've mentioned how helpful it's been. We've only gone through eight questions and we this has been weeks and the conversations end up being more than an hour multiple times. I've cried just because some of them are really difficult to have to think of because you have to, you're explaining things that you don't want to shed light on. But if you're going to be spending your life with someone. There's a lot of things you need to shed light on and to make sure that, you know, that you are entering in this with a full and free knowledge of someone and that's so difficult and, and I'm not sure that my parents had that at all. And so I think that's something that from seeing an unhealthy example of a marriage thinking how can I prevent that or guard, not prevent it, but guard myself against that. And I think a really good step to guard yourself against that is to do the really hard work before you initially say yes, I'll marry you. I love that. And it's really tough. Like we've only gone through eight questions and it's been like nine hours of us talking and like I said, I mean, it's, it's emotionally really good, but afterwards I feel so much better, like it's just, it's not a weight off my shoulders. It's not as if I'm withholding anything. It's just being intentional about the reason we're asking these questions is because we are discerning if we should get married or not. And so I think it's so important. So what are some examples of the questions just for anyone who's thinking like, yeah, I could really use that in my relationship. Like maybe they're in a dating relationship or maybe they even are engaged and they're trying to, you know, further decide discern is this really the right person for me because that really is what engagement is. It's a time of like further sermon. So I'm just curious. Yeah, what that book is like and what some of the questions are? Yeah, I'll just go through the first question was great because obviously it opens up a space for the further questions. The first question is what makes it easy for you to be vulnerable and open and what makes it difficult? Obviously, that's very intentional is the first question because you want to create a space where you are willing to be vulnerable and open. Because if you're not, then you shouldn't go through this book. Like if you can't create that or they can't provide that or they're not willing to work on providing that, then you've got a problem. Yeah. So if you can't make it through question one, you have got a problem like that's a big red flag right there. If you, if your answer is I'm not willing to be vulnerable in front of you, do not proceed until you, you address that. Um One that was very difficult for me. Uh Was the question, how do you maintain healthy interdependence? So I've been on my own for so long. I can move myself from house to house, all by myself. I can do fixing things around my house all by myself. I can do a budget all by myself. There's so many things that I'm completely capable as a human being to do all by myself and you just have the temperament to just being a very independent person like me, I, I've always, I've always had that. Like, if I see something that needs done, I'm just going to do it and even if I think someone else could help me with it, if I think it's going to take them longer to do it, I'd rather be more efficient and do it myself. So it's very tough to say, ok, how am I going to actually allow this person to enter into my world and me give up something and allow them to do something for me. Even, even like how I put groceries away in the refrigerator, the simple thing, you know, it's something simple or how I fold a towel. I'm so used to doing it the exact way I have done it for so many years. And now I'm going to not only give up that desire for how I've always done it, I'm going to allow someone else to do it for me or they're going to allow me to do something for them. Like the, the humbling aspect of that. I mean, it's even just ironing someone's shirt for them, you know, like everyone's capable, not everyone, I guess, I don't know that for a fact, but many people are capable of ironing their own things but allowing someone else to serve you in that way. And that's something that I think is very profound. I've always wanted and I have a very strong desire to serve others and act like act of service. I think it cannot be understood. I think it's a great thing and it's something we should all practice. Not because it's our love language just because we should do that. We should sacrifice that because it's, it's saying that you're worth my time, you're worth this effort. I think it's extremely important. So this question, I think we, I think we talked about this one question for two hours and I was bawling because I was like, I like, that's one thing I'm so petrified of is that I'm not going to know how to give something up even though I want to, I desperately want your help. I want you to be able to do these things for me because I want to be able to receive that love from you in that way. And it would be great. I'm just afraid that I'm not going to be willing to actually give it up to allow you to do that whether that's my pride or just anxiety popping up because it's something different and I have to get used to it. That was a really tough question. Yeah. No. That makes so much sense that I could see the, this book being a great conversation starter and it gets to the root of, you know, so many of those foundational things that you want to be on the same page. On when it comes to at least to know kind of what to expect moving forward. So, wow, I love that and I could see how that would be super, super helpful. So, anything else before? Yeah, I would say there's one more question, that's a beginning question that was really profound and I didn't limit it. I, when I read this, you'll know that there's a one specific sense of this statement, but I took it in a different direction. Obviously, that's just if there's one direction, I'm always going to go a different one. So what have you learned from previous relationships that will make you a better spouse uh for someone at this time? And so when we hear the word relationship, we're thinking romantic relationships, I didn't take it that way. I thought of how, what's my relationship as being a daughter? What's my relationship as being a sibling? What's my relationship as being a friend? What's my relationship as being, you know, beloved daughter of God? What have I learned from those relationships that make me a better person to make me a better spouse? And that was, I mean, that was tough, like just actually thinking and reflecting on that because I mean, like, yeah, I think it was so great. Yeah, I do, I do think I'm great. I think I'm a wonderful person. I think I'm a worthwhile person. But what has helped me to get there? And it is a very humbling experience to actually reflect on the ways you haven't been a great friend or you have missed opportunities to serve others. And so thinking of that and thinking, how has this made me a better person now, or how is it going to make me a better person in the future as someone's spouse? A tough question? That is a tough question. So good though. I'm glad you brought that up and I think it's an excellent resource for everyone listening, especially people who are entering or in a relationship to help, you know, further discern if this is something that could turn into marriage that could go down that road before we transitioned into talking about trauma. I'm curious, what were a few things, the two or three things that helped you cope with the pain that you were dealing with and also to heal? Like, what were some things that helped you cope and heal? I think first and foremost, not being in the environment. And I can't even say how it helped me because I have no idea what it was like because I wasn't there. But I can anticipate what it might have been like because I can reflect on what our family like was like when I was there. You know, the all the arguments and things like that and unhealthy behaviors and patterns not to say that there weren't some healthy ones too. Of course, there were. But I mean, we're kind of primarily looking at the ones that are more unhealthy. So I think the most powerful thing that was helpful was the fact that I was not physically there. And then I, where I was at college, I had, I had my faith community. I had my friends, I had sports, I had my classes, I had positive things that were actively engaging me instead. So I only had to really think about going home for the major holidays or for break and I imagine things probably would have turned out very, very differently if I had been there, if you were in the midst of it. Yeah. No, that makes sense. Um, and that's something that we recommend from time to time. If things are so intense and toxic at home, it's good to have a breather. It's good to have some space. It can, it can be very, very helpful in terms of, yeah, just helping you not be as emotionally distressed and maybe acting out in different ways trying to deal with the pain that you're experiencing. So I'm right there with you and I think even beyond that, uh, now that I think about it more, but if you really care about your Children, the way that you imagine yourself to care about your Children, if you're going through a divorce and there is no way for them to be physically somewhere else like they're not off to college, they are there making sure that they do have the positive relationships and positive outlets and that you encourage them to maintain their level of participation if not increase it. I think that's something to really think about. Obviously, I, I can't say one way or the other. Um, but I do think that would, I mean, it would only serve to help, you know, to make sure that you're encouraging and not, not limiting it because you're fighting or you're having a bad day. So you're just going to cancel a play date or cancel that sport or cancel that practice. You know, I think encouraging it more and making the effort more to ensure that they have all these, what we call protective factors in their life. Um So maintaining those, if not increasing them for your Children, that makes sense. Was there anything else that was healing for you? It was a long road of healing, you know. Yeah, there's, I would say it all comes for me personally, it all comes back to prayer. And I, during that time, I felt most at peace when I would be able to go to daily mass. I mean, we were very fortunate that the Franciscan University to be able to have three different masses to choose from. Now, it's four, I think masses to choose from on campus. So being able to just offer, I would go first thing in the morning. Um And I did that, I think the majority of the time I would I would go to usually would always for sure. It would always be lent. I would always make sure. Ok. No, this is, I have to go on them but then I would just continue it and it would just kind of just stuck. So then when I got back I'd be like, oh, I would just go anyways. Um, so at that time I hadn't always gone to adoration routinely, but I always went to mass. And so just having that, having that way to start my day and pray the rosary. I mean, I don't, there's no way we can understate that. I mean, it's the source and sum of our, our faith. So allowing yourself to be drawn in and, and knowing that you're not always going to feel good when you go, just the action of choosing to go, even when you feel like a wretch, even when you feel like there's no way that you could even force a smile from your face. Like the greatest effort you're making is getting yourself to get out of bed. You have to remember you by doing that. You're telling yourself more than you think, by choosing to get out of bed, by choosing to maintain your commitments, by choosing to engage in mass to, by choosing to engage in prayer. You are in a very real way telling yourself just how much you are worth it. And so when you had people in your life that maybe weren't telling you you were worth it or that's your perception of it, doing those little things for yourself or you might not be actively telling yourself you're worth it. But you really are in a behavior sense. Ok. Now, that makes sense. And that almost goes further than words for a lot of people at least, which I, which I like, I want to transition into trauma. I don't know, we don't have too much time left, but I'd love to know we've talked about trauma a bit on the show. But I'm curious, uh what's the definition of trauma that you uh for me, the definition of trauma is having something that stresses your resources beyond their capacity. So it could be because trauma can happen. I mean, usually we think of it in a negative sense like post traumatic stress disorder, we think of that, but in a, a lighter sense, it could happen when something really good happens. Like anything that really stresses all of your resources to the point where you do not have the mental, physical emotional resources to continue on at the, you know, maintaining the same level of behavior that you were the same level of competence that you were to me in that sense, it is a trauma. So it could come even from the birth up a new child, that's something that is so gloriously wonderful. But for that short period of time, it can also be very traumatic on us because it is pushing through every single resource you have. And if you don't have additional people to make up for the resources that you're now stressing like family or friends or community, then it can become a problem very quickly. But when you do have those and you're not stretching out every single resource you have till it's bare minimum or its absence, then you're just going to remember that time as, yeah, it was stress when it was hard but it, it was wonderful and I want to have another one. But when you don't have that, your idea is no, like having another one that, that becomes the most difficult thing that you don't want, you want to do. But at the same time, you don't because you know, the stress and the trauma that is going to bring you because your resources are just going to be blood dry again. Ok. That's super interesting. I've never heard anyone that it get a totally different, totally different one, but I think it becomes more applicable to many more things. I wouldn't, I would say my definition. There's definitely some capital t traumas that we would say. But I would say it really acknowledges a lot more of the lower case t traumas that we can experience throughout just day to day life. I'm not saying that it's gonna have a lasting impact, but I would say that I would qualify it as it was one, it does affect you. No, that makes sense. I want to go deep here. What happens inside our bodies, inside our brains when a traumatic event occurs. And I know it's a big conversation. But yeah, let's chip away at it. So, I mean, there's lots of different theories. I mean, essentially we engage in our fight or flight response. And so usually initially, we are startled by something that's the shock of what took place, the event itself and then we can go into our fight or flight and how someone's going to respond to that, it's everyone can be different. And many times we can be shocked, I think by how we react because we can say, you know, well, I always think I, you know, I would be someone who reacts this way if I was given that situation, that might not be the case. You know, it might take you actually being in that scenario to realize how you would respond and it could be completely different than your personality. I found that out the hard way when I had to go through my own trauma, I think, knowing, realizing that I'm a person who's probably going to freeze when everything about my personality, if you met me would tell you that I'm fighting 100%. And so, I mean, that was really even that in itself realizing that and reflecting and I was like, wow, that was in itself very traumatic and very hurtful. Like thinking, I actually for a period of time, thought less of myself because I was like, man, you rose, you didn't fight the way you thought you'd always fight and maybe because you, maybe you weren't capable, who knows? Like I don't, I can't completely say everything to that state, but all I know is that I, I totally froze and that was not, that's not who I am. That in day to day life, that's not who anyone would think I am. And so you learn a lot about yourself. So then after that, the fight or flight, then we have, you know, we, we can go into a freeze and then we have what we consider an altered state of consciousness. So that could be where they, you know, we could think of it as you're in shock or you have an out of body experience as if you are, you know, detached from yourself, watching it happen like you're a witness to it now, um that's a very common thing for people to report happening. And then after that, we, we kind of start to return. And during that also that altered state of consciousness or that out of body experience, you're really not aware or you may not be aware of the physical bodily sensations that are going on. Like you might not feel it like some people who don't realize that their limb was just cut off and they don't feel anything until they actually look at it and then it clicks with their mind that your arm is missing. You should feel extraordinary pain right now and they don't feel it until they actually look and acknowledge it because they're in such an altered state of consciousness that it takes them coming back down. And when they actually are in a place that self repair is the, is the very, what we consider the very end of it. When they start getting into that, they can act. That's when they'll start all the body sensations and thoughts come back and you could be capable of feeling. So between the out of body or the altered state of consciousness and repair, we can go into what we consider just an obedience state. And this, you see a lot with first responders, someone comes to rescue you, they give you directions and you're just going to blindly follow them. But this can be something that is for better or for worse. Uh because it could be someone who is harming you that you're now obedient to because you're just in that you're not fully capable of your own free will in a sense because you're just, you're not in your right mind and that's just a response from it. And until you're in a space where you can be safe, whether that's emotionally or mentally or physically, you're not gonna really get out of that, you're just gonna be listening to the directives that are given to you and God willing, it's going to be through someone who has your best interest and is there to protect you, like someone, you know, officials out of the police or fire department or, um, an EMT. And once you're able to do that, then you can kind of go into the, the self repair. But even the self repair doesn't always mean that it's gonna be positive. It can be something that, and I don't even really want to say negative. It could be something that is life impairing might be a better way of saying it. I mean, we could become more obsessive compulsive with things. I'd say that's probably a very common one. I, I saw that in my own life. That was definitely the path that my trauma took. I mean, it could be with how we eat, it could be with how we exercise. It could be with different addictions. I mean, usually it's very behavioral. That's, that is the one theme of the self is that if it's going to become an issue in how you live your life, it's going to usually come out in the behavior of some kind. And for me, it was definitely the obsessive compulsive of needing everything to be within my control because I wasn't in control and I had a sense of obeying someone that I did not want to because I froze because I wasn't able to fight or fight. And some of that and some of that, when you, when we say fight or flight, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm physically fighting you or that I'm physically, you know, it could be that you're stuck and you freeze because you are physically not able to fight. I mean, and that's a very real thing that people need to acknowledge that sometimes we physically cannot fight and we physically cannot flee. And so our body just start, we just go into a freeze kind of state. So when we come out of it, our self repair could be that we are now in need of absolute control over every single piece of our life. And for me that could have, that came down to how I clean. It came down to how I organize things. It came down to how I put away silverware, it came down to how I fold things, how I organize my closet, everything had to be absolutely perfect. And if it wasn't, then I would get extremely frustrated and I would be easily become angry. Yeah. Um And I usually wouldn't be angry at myself like it would show up in some other relationship, like I would get set off by something little. But it's really because I couldn't keep this, this one thing to be exactly the way I wanted it to. It makes so much sense. And now I like how you said, the self repair is really just a way to kind of feel some level of normalcy back in your life or to get yourself out of a maybe super anxious or super depressive state, like an emotional equilibrium, which makes sense. And there's some really unhealthy behavior that actually does that. And so that's what you're saying, that it serves a purpose. We don't want to continue down that road, but it's there for a reason. And that's often what kind of brings us back to that. And you might not even recognize it. Like a lot of people with mine didn't recognize the obsessive and compulsive behaviors that I was doing. They just thought I was super organized and super on top of my life, like, like type a personality and really, no, my personality is, yes, I'm a very organized person. I prefer to have my life organized. I prefer to anticipate my day to day. Like, I prefer to anticipate three months from now, to be honest. But I can allow to have dishes pile up. I mean, usually not very much because I don't, I have a routine and a habit that I generally don't let that happen or I could go a day where I don't make my bed even though generally I usually do every morning. So it could be things that we see as good behaviors or good traits or things, you know, sense of perfection that we want. But it, it's, it's unhealthy because it was impairing my life that it was affecting how I saw the world. It was affecting how I was able to interact with other people because I couldn't do it. And that's, that's the thing to watch out for, for people. OK. That's good. All right. I want to explain and kind of this whole model one more time and we can use me as a guinea pig. OK. So, so I remember when my mom uh I talk about this sometimes on the show. So forgive me if this is repetitive for some of you listening. But I remember when my mom broke the news that they were, my parents were getting divorced, I was 11 and it was so shocking, like it literally shattered my world. It was really difficult to hear and all. Yeah, I remember that that sensation of like being startled, like kind of looking in disbelief at my mom. Like is this real, is this like actually happening? And then having the reaction of just like crying and, and feeling really angry kind of simultaneously? And so all I could do in that moment was flee. Actually, I remember, yeah, just going hiding in the closet to where like no one could find me. And I was just like kind of suddenly sobbing and just like really, really, really angry. Yeah, kind of like that. Maybe I don't know if that at that point, I was having the psychotic body experience, but I can see how these stages play out. So with that example, if you would kind of explain the model again to make it a little bit more concrete. Yeah. So in, in, in just hearing what you said, so obviously, the startle is very obvious when you hear the news and your fight or flight was very obvious when you said you went into a closet and you started crying with it. Um So the altered state of consciousness would come in or how we would in within this model describe based on the details, solely the details that you gave me. The question is this real that going through your mind and having that doubt and that would be considered for this model and altered state of consciousness that in in this therapeutic approach, we would address that would be what we used for the alternate of conscious. Is that just sense of gosh, how could this be real? How could this be my real life like that is alter state of conscious? Doesn't mean you have to be like hallucinating, you know, it doesn't have to mean anything like that. It could just be that, that sense of doubting the reality of the situation in a very simple way that makes sense. Now, for the sense of automatic obedience and the self repair, based on the details of the story provided, I wouldn't be able to say that this was, you know what that was what was going on. I imagine though that some of the body sensations or the attempt to self repair for you. If you were putting yourself in a closet away from other people crying, you probably, or may have very well had your arms wrapped around your knees rocking yourself as a way of attempting to comfort yourself within the tears. Yeah, that's what it was for sure. That's, that's something that we in an attempt. If you always grew up knowing that was a pattern of comfort for something that brought you comfort, then that very well could have been the self repair that you were attempting to self soothe. It may not have been what actually brought the repair and usually it isn't because it's, it can happen in a very all these things can happen in the span of five minutes or they could happen in the span of five years. We just never, you never know like someone could be um like there's people who are all of a sudden in a clinical sense they have are presenting with schizophrenia when really that's just an altered state of consciousness. And once the trauma is resolved, the schizophrenia may very well go away or diminish to a significant degree where it's no longer clinical, like clinically impairing their life. And schizophrenia again, just for this thing where you're going to be having disorganized thoughts, you might not even be able to string a sentence together in a way that's cognizant to other people. You probably will have either audio visual hallucinations, you may smell things that aren't there. You may have delusions, either of gran or you may think you're Jesus Christ, you may think that everyone is out to get you different things. So it's definitely you are out of touch with reality. I see kind of a break from reality. That makes sense, right? Which is why that would fall in some people who are just in an altered state of consciousness from a significant trauma may present with schizophrenia. Hm. Wow. Ok. I didn't know that that's profound and yeah, and that makes sense with the example I gave how maybe not all the stages are in there. But if I were to continue telling this story, I know for me, one of the things that I fell into which I've shared openly in this show was, um, yeah, pornography became kind of a self repair because it was a distraction. It was something that was brought relief. It brought pleasure, obviously, it brought, yeah, just kind of a way to like emotionally regulate. And so I can, I totally see that as an attempt to self repair as well. But yeah, I don't, I guess the obedience thing I didn't see as much or I'm having a hard time like putting my head around that one. It might not be that every single one of these the phases might not be present in every trauma, right? Or you might not even be able to identify them. You simply we don't always know. That makes sense. I can say I had kind of some weird situations where I've pulled up on like car accidents for some reason, like a good amount of them and try to help the people, like hop out and help. And in those moments you can tell, like people are like kind of during the headlights sort of look that startle and then yeah, they'll do anything you tell them at that point, like if you tell them to like, stop, if you tell them to get out, like whatever, it's, it is profound. So you can clearly see that like anyone who's ever been in that situation or maybe you've seen it on TV or something, you can see how, yeah, that obedience kicks in and hopefully it's with a person, like you said, who's trustworthy because then that's a really good thing. I doubt you could talk to any firefighter EMT or police officer that has not experienced that during, you know, approaching, um, some traumatic experience that someone is going through. Yeah. No, that makes so much sense. Anything else you doubt about the motto in terms of the phase, the phase in itself? No, it is a very, I would say it's a difficult model to go through. Uh So part of the premise is that it's not just discussing these different phases. So what we would have someone do is draw them out and that can be extremely difficult. I mean, not that it can be, it will be, it will be very difficult to do this. However, I have seen people who I had a client who every single minute of every single day was scheduled because she presented, she had sexual trauma for when she was less than two years old and she presented with significant O CD. And so to the point where she wouldn't even allow herself to go to the bathroom until it was time on her schedule for her to go to the bathroom. And so her day was so rigid because she lacked so much control in her life. And that's just how it presented. So it was extremely difficult. And I worked with her for a couple of years and we went through and by the grace of God, she was willing to give this a try no matter how difficult it was. And we went through and she drew out these different stages for different traumas. Then we put them up on a board and I retell the story back to them, but we tell it in a way that usually you put something over their eyes so that they can focus with just one eye. And so that that will help them see it in a different it, it changes your perspective. So it alters the way our brain takes in that information by kind of providing almost like a tunnel vision of it. And so it also provides detachment because when you look through a telescope, things can look, they look far away. They're not, they're not completely present to you. So it's you're telling the story back so that I'm an audience to my own story now. And by doing that, it allows us to close the story because generally what we're seeing is that these different mental health disorders are presenting because that story was not resolved. So when we're, when we're able to start a story and end the story or the trauma, we're able to resolve it mentally and they can file that away and put it away and not have to bring it back out unless they willingly want to and then they can move on with their life. And so this was, this was someone who from every minute being scheduled to not having to schedule anything and living her life freely being able to engage in relationships. I mean, it was a significant transformation but it was extremely hard. I mean, there were some days where even I didn't want to go through working through the therapy with her because it was, I could see it was such a struggle for her. But I also I didn't want to see it's not pleasant content, you know, asking someone to draw out some of the most disgusting things about human behavior and human corruption. It's tough. I mean, it's excruciating. Yeah, but knowing that it's also extremely humbling that this person trusted me so much to help them change their own life and to share their story. I mean, it's, it's, I think I'm one of the most humbling things to be a trauma therapist, I bet. Yeah. Wow. Profound. And that was my next question. Actually, some people I think, feel that healing isn't even possible that the hand they've been dealt in life is just what they have to deal with. They have to carry, carry on. They have to do the best they can that there's no way to really improve. It's just kind of get through survive and, and I get that, I get that feeling. But yeah, is it possible? I mean, you just said it is absolutely, it's not easy. It's possible. It is not easy for some, it will be easier than others. I think as long as you are seeing yourself as a victim and only a victim and you're putting yourself in that box or you're putting yourself in a box of just simply being a survivor when you make it too simple. But it's on the more negative side, you will struggle more significantly to improve or to get healthy again if you remove that and you allow yourself to see that. Yes, this happened to me. It does not define me. It is not happening again to me right now. And so I have today to make different choices and to make a different life for myself when you start that process. And you're open to it and you're willing to add a different adjective to your character or your identity that's not victim. And that's not simply Survivor. You open yourself to such a wide range of choices. And I think people, and it's scary. It's also, I mean, because in a sense you're shedding that, that old identity and that can be very scary for people to do because that's all you've known. That's all you in that sense of survival. That's all you've had to cling to, to just make it from day to day. But when we're willing and I'm not saying this is an overnight process or it's like a statement you make one minute and you're like at 12 o'clock, I'm no longer a survivor. 12 01. I'm moving forward with my life. This is something that happens over a year. Exactly. Exactly. Uh, there's no, there's no magic timeline and that, I think that is something that's most difficult for people to know that. And some people can do this on their own. I mean, I did not, I've been trained as a therapist. I did not go through therapy myself. And so in that sense, it took me many, many more years than it could have and I completely acknowledge that. But it was really my pride that was not willing to, I was not willing to humble myself. And so now that's what makes it so much more profound when people are willing to humble themselves to me because I'm like, wow, these people are superheroes like they are doing something that I was not even willing to do or that I could not bring myself to do. That's amazing. Yeah. So I think, I think healing is possible, moving forward is possible. It's extremely difficult work and it has to start with a decision to put 1 ft in front of the other and having a willingness to walk away from a past identity and find and forge a new one. Honestly, you have to forge a new one and realize that. I mean, I think you're a great person. I think you're a wonderful man and I would tell everyone. Oh, yeah, he's one of the best men I know. Like you guys really get to know Joey. Like he's so great. Like, but if I was to learn something about you at this point in time about your past that I didn't know it could be something that you did. That was terrible. It could be something that was terrible that happened to you. It could be something that was great. All I'm doing is learning new information about you. It doesn't change who you are, doesn't change what I think of you. I'm simply learning new information that I didn't have, but that goes into who you are today, but it's not you. It's something about you, but it's not you. And that's an extremely difficult thing to move forward from and, and, and I'm saying that from experience is that for a long time, I mean, I thought of myself as you know, I'm going to be in this box. I'm not, there's nothing I can do about it. And then I realized that I'm focusing on the wrong thing. Like, yes, this something happened to me, it was difficult, but there's so many other things in the world that I could do. I could choose, choose to go bowling to take bowling lessons and become a better bowler like something so simple, but it would help me improve myself and it would give me hope that I can get better. Like it doesn't have to start out with, with your emotional or psychological health. It could start off with something as simple as trying a new skill and just seeing yourself get better and seeing yourself dedicate that time. You're again, you're telling yourself that you're worth it. You're telling yourself that you can improve. You're telling yourself there is hope for something to get better and that you can take a pile of nothing or a pile of not so great things for not wanting to use other terms. But you're telling yourself that you, you can make yourself clean again, you can and if not, and if not clean again, you can tie dye yourself to be different and present. You know, you become renewed in that sense. And so in that sense, you are still cleaning for a bit. So, but it is tough. I won't lie. It is extremely difficult and it takes time and I think that's why most people don't do it. It's like those barriers that prevent them from doing it. But no, I've been through the therapy actually. And it is very helpful and I had worked through a lot of it on my own or with different therapists, not using that model. but going through it is very, very helpful. It opened my eyes to things that I never even saw that were there the whole time. And I was like, wow, that's like affecting me on a daily basis. But yeah, it's crazy how we kind of continue living out those stories even though they are years in the past. But like they feel in the moment like they're present, it's wild and so super, super helpful. I, I love how you mentioned like the whole victim mentality because that's something that's such a hot topic right now. And I think there's an important distinction that I just wanted to mention for everyone. There are like real victims. And I know you would agree with this victims of, you know, circumstances like they're in a situation and they're victimized and that's horrible and they deserve help. And there's a reason that they feel victimized. There's a reason that they are a victim and you know, you need to move through that and you need to grieve you need to do all that stuff, but you're not meant to remain a victim. And that's what I think is so toxic and so harmful in our culture right now. Is that so many people? I think all of us in one degree or another fall into this choose to remain victims. We choose to put ourselves in that box and then therefore we feel stuck, we can't heal, we can't grow or we feel we can't heal. We feel we can't grow and we're like unable to everything. We feel powerless. We maybe point at other people for our problems. And by definition, then if we're pointing at them for our problems, they must have the solution or so we think therefore, I can't do anything myself. And so one of the things I challenge the young people I mentor is OK, you might not have caused the problem, but you can take ownership of the solution and you can implement that in your life and you can grow beyond this. And so that whole idea of post traumatic growth is so real. And I've seen it like I'm preparing to talk right now on this topic and it's not fully ready. So I won't give you guys it. But there's insane stories of people. There's this one marine who um learned his story and he, I think Rob Jones is his name. If I'm getting that right. He fought in Afghanistan and Iraq and he was an expert at spotting roadside bombs, IE Ds and while he was sweeping for bombs at one point so his teams could like move through. Um he stepped on a bomb and it went off and he lost both his legs like he had to get him amputated above his knees. And for most people, like, you know, rightly so that is traumatizing. He is very much so a victim, but he just refused to remain a victim. And so what he did is he got into like the Paralympic Games and got like a bronze medal on the world stage. He was the first double amputee to ride across the country on a bike. He went through if I'm getting the numbers, right. He ran 31 marathons in 31 days in 31 different cities. Like it's profound. So I think people like that. It's incredible to look at and see, wow, maybe you don't need to go run 31 marathons without any legs. It's amazing. But certainly you can, you know, do other things that are going to help you to heal and to grow and to kind of push through that. So it's, it's amazing to see that, you know, we don't have to remain victims and maybe we were victims, but we don't have to remain victims. I would add one more thing to that. So when I also say victim, being a victim can be a state of fact, right? Maintaining a victim mentality is what is so harmful. If we think of Max Milling Colby, he was a victim. He certainly did not have a victim mentality. He maintained his ability to serve others and not despair. He could have chosen differently, but he didn't, but he was a victim. But he did not maintain the victim mentality. And the victim mentality is when you combine the two of them, that is what becomes so harmful. That makes sense. And the story we're talking about Max Mill and Kobe, the quick version is he was a Polish priest who was locked up in a Nazi concentration camp in Auschwitz. And one night, some prisoners escaped. And the Nazis being who they were chose to I think kill 10 men if I'm remembering the story right, randomly as a punishment for those men escaping. And there was one man uh French France, Francis guy, I think his name. And anyway, he had a family, he had a wife, he had Children and he was just like broke down crying that he was going to be killed. And so Maxim and Kobe, this priest who again, very much so a victim by circumstance, he actually stepped out of line, which in itself was just like incredibly brave thing to do because they could have just killed him on the spot. He stepped out of line to offer his life in exchange. And the Nazi officers were so shocked by this that they actually honored his wish they didn't kill the guy who they could have, they could have just said, oh, you want to die? Ok, great. We're gonna do 11 instead of 10. Um They actually allowed that other man to not be killed and he actually got out of the concentration camp years later and was able to reunite with his family on some level. And um and then Max Million was killed. And so it's a profound story of like going rising above that, you know, victim circumstance and escaping and overcoming the victim mentality. So it's a beautiful story as well. Patty, thank you so much for coming on the show. I want to do this. Yeah. And it's been a long time coming and I want to give you the final word. What words of encouragement would you give to someone who, who feels broken, who feels stuck in life because of everything they've been through, especially if their parents got divorced or there's slaughter dysfunction at home, what encouragement would you give them? And the task is not knowing what to say. It's annoying. Which one you know to go go to. I would say you, you are worth it. So the boundaries that you want to set up for yourself, your healthy boundaries with your parents, with your family, they are worth it and they do need to be protected. And in the sense that I say that I very early on told my parents that I was not to be a go between that I was not going to say, oh, tell them this or tell them they owe me this or bring them this paperwork. Shutting that down. You are worth that as difficult as it is to tell that to a parent, you are worth it and you will be better for doing it, not allowing your parent to or both of them could be one could be both to not talk negatively about the other one in your presence, whether it's directly to you or to one of their friends or to a stranger, putting your foot down for those things because you don't want that to happen. You are worth it. So those healthy, healthy boundaries for you to have put your foot down as strong as you can and, and voice, you don't even have to voice your concern. You just say no, you need to stop doing this because it's not OK. I will not allow it. You are worth it. So many great lessons from Patty's expertise in her story. And if you'd like to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. There's three easy steps to do that. But first, some of the benefits of sharing your story, reflecting on your story is actually healing on a neural biological level. It makes your brain healthier and writing your story also is healing studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed, less anxious, healthier. And also it gives guidance and hope to people who are struggling too. So how do you do? It? Just go to restored ministry dot com slash story. There's a form on that page that guide you in telling a short version of your story and then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous blog article. And so go ahead and share your story now at restored ministry dot com slash story, as discussed in the interview, one tactic to heal is actually find someone who can guide you. That's where a counselor coach or spiritual director can come in. But often it's difficult and time consuming to find someone like that. Thankfully, at Restored, we're building a network of counselors and coaches and spiritual directors that we vet that we trust that we recommend. And by using our network, it's just going to save you a lot of time and effort in searching for a counselor coach or spiritual director. You also find a competent professional that we, again, we've vetted, we trust and recommend. And so how do you make use of that? Just go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching. Fill out the form. It should take about 60 seconds and then we'll contact you once we find a counselor coach or spiritual director, uh, that we recommend at the moment we're still building this list. Uh So if you want to jump on the waitlist, I invite you to go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching. But you might be listening to this at a later date and so it might be fully ready at that point again, go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching or just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them seriously, It takes about 30 seconds to just message them this episode or another episode that you think would be helpful for them. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of CS Lewis who said you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#102: Healing Sexual Brokenness: Your Sexual Brokenness Isn’t Random | Jay Stringer

What if I told you that your sexual struggles could be predicted by your untreated trauma?

Today, we’re joined by author Jay Stringer who studied ~4,000 men and women who struggle with sexual compulsion or addiction, such porn, masturbation, affairs, buying sex, and much more. 

In this episode, we breakdown his NEW study and more:

• How the sexual fantasies and porn searches of the study participants could be predicted by their untreated trauma

• Why we often repeat behavior that harmed us, such as sexual abuse or affairs, and how to avoid that

• How anger actually drives unwanted sexual behavior

• Why people from rigid or disengaged families are much more likely to struggle with sexual compulsion or addiction

• How in order to break free, you have to listen to your lust and understand why you struggle in the particular ways that you do

• Why typical lust management strategies like accountability software are not enough

Whether you struggle with sexual brokenness or know someone who does, this episode will help anyone find healing and lasting freedom from sexual brokenness.

Buy Jay’s Book: Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing

Get FREE Unwanted Chapters

Get FREE Mini-Course: Why You Feel Broken

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Jay Stringer

  • Website

  • Instagram

• Books

  • The Body Keeps the Score | Bessel van der Kolk M.D.

  • The Myth of Normal | Gabor Maté MD

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

What if I told you that your sexual struggles could actually be predicted by the untreated trauma that you've endured in your life. Would you want to know more about that? If so this episode is for you, that insight actually comes from the book, unwanted. How sexual Brokenness reveals our way to healing in which the author says this. He says, I'm asking you to consider the possibility that your sexual struggle is not random. Today, I speak to that author, Jay Stringer who studied almost 4000 men and women who struggle with sexual compulsion or addiction such as porn, masturbation affairs, buying sex. And more in this episode, we break down that new study and more like I mentioned, we talk about how the sexual fantasies and porn searches of the study participants could actually be predicted by the untreated trauma they endured. Why we often repeat behavior that harmed us such as sexual abuse or affairs and how you can avoid that. How anger actually drives unwanted sexual behavior. Really, really interesting stuff. Why people from rigid or disengaged families are much more likely to struggle with sexual compulsion or addiction. How in order to break free. You have to listen to your lust and understand why you struggle in the particular ways that you do. And finally why typical lust management strategies like accountability software are actually not enough, whether you struggle with sexual Brokenness or you know, someone who does this episode will help anyone find healing and lasting freedom from sexual Brokenness. So keep listening, welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panelli. This is episode 102. This episode is actually part four of our series called Healing Sexual Brokenness on the show. You know that we feature stories and expert interviews about how to heal from the trauma of your parents', divorce and broken family or how to navigate the pain and the problems that stem from it. One of the biggest problems that often stems from your family's breakdown is unwanted sexual behavior like pornography, masturbation, hookup, culture, paying for sex and fidelity and so much more. In fact, one expert found that almost 90% of those who struggle with sexual addiction come from a broken family. In this series, you'll get tactics and resources to overcome unwanted sexual behavior so you can find freedom, little trigger warning. This is obviously a mature topic. So we recommend putting in earphones or at least not listening around Children with that. My guest today is Jay Stringer. Stringer is best known for helping both men and women find freedom from sexual Brokenness and pursue the life. They truly desire a licensed mental health counselor, an ordained minister and an acclaimed international speaker. Jay provides a safe and supportive environment for individuals seeking to address unwanted sexual behavior. Now, based in New York City, Jay has spent more than a decade at the forefront of combating the demand for sexual exploitation and porn geography. Through his clinical work, he offers a comprehensive understanding of the origins of sexual Brokenness, shedding light on the factors that sustain these struggles. Jay's award winning book, Unwanted is the culmination of an extensive research project that delves into the stories of 3800 men and women. That book has sold more than 100,000 copies and has widely been embraced by counselors, churches and small groups globally affirming its impact and relevance. I'm so excited for you to learn from Jay. So here's our conversation, Jay. Welcome to the show, Joe. Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here starting out. I just want to say you are the freaking man. I just love everything you're doing. I have so much respect and admiration for you. I found your content so helpful. So thank you so much. I look up to you a lot. I'm honored to have you here. Thank you for reading the book and sharing it with others. So I have so many questions for you and uh so we'll just go, go at them. But uh starting out, I'm just curious, what do you care about, about this so much? Why do you care about this problem? Why do you care about people who struggle with unwanted sexual behavior? You know, one of the first stories that comes to mind is, uh I went through graduate school, got my master's in counseling psychology when I was probably in my mid twenties. And my grandfather whose name was Elmer died when I was about 25 26 years old. And I went to his funeral in sort of the North Florida area. And I remember being in his funeral and not sure if you've ever had this sense, but like the sadness that I felt was not so much that he had passed away, but far more the reality that I never knew this man in his life. Like we knew some of the cover stories, some of the big stories of his life, the headline stories, but we never really, I never really knew uh the man. And so I remember flying back across the country from Florida, back to Seattle where I was in grad school at the time and just having this kind of inner defiance rise up within me of, I need to understand my, my story, I need to understand who these major characters are and I need to get to know my grandmother. So the first one up on that docket was my grandmother, Dorothy, who was my dad's mom. And uh you know, long story I could share about her, but I always referred to her as just like a cold steel door of emotion. Like I have a memory of being eight years old. And she had called our house middle of January. And she had said, uh, you know, are your parents there? I said no. And I said, can I take a message for them? And she said, yeah, if you could just let your parents know that I was quite disappointed by what your family gave me for Christmas this year. I don't know, she's probably in her mid seventies or something at that point. And I'm like, I'm not even allowed to say that. Um And so that was the challenge with Dorothy. But I took her out to a cafe on her 90th birthday, went and got the skeleton keys that I wanted to represent the era of her birth year. So they were keys from like 1916, 17, 18, somewhere in that range, took her out to a cafe. I gave her these keys and I said, grandma, these three keys symbolize three lunches that I wanna take you out to, to learn more about your life. And you know, most grandmothers would be deeply touched by an expression like that. But my grandmother was horrified and five seconds passes, 10 seconds passes she says nothing. Uh eventually she looks back up at me and passes the box back across the table and says, Jay, there are some doors you just don't open. There are some stories you just don't tell. And that was probably what sealed the deal for me to become a psychotherapist is, you know, there are stories that so many of us have that we are too ashamed to tell and then you get closer to those stories and that's where shame defensiveness, blame really begin to rise. And so I think that was really the beginning of i it's not just me that has a story of secrecy and silence and judgment, not just my father, probably not just my grandmother, but many generations. And so part of what we found out about my grandmother was she was likely sexually assaulted by a family member sometime in her mid teens. And that was a story that she was never able to share with any of her friends with any of the religious communities that she was part of. And I've wondered so much since that day, you know, how her life, how my father's life, how my life would have been different if she had had a context to share some of the sexual stories that she was part of in life. And so I think, you know, I have my own history with pornography use and struggles. Uh But I think far more than that, it's a sense of like this is the story that shame narrates in our life has an impact over many, many generations. And again, just that inner sense of defiance of, I don't want sexual shame and stigma to have the last word in an individual's life. Much less many generations from now. So that was kind of the impetus to write. The book is as a therapist, seeing a lot of people struggling with infidelity pornography use and yet most of the resources that were out there were kind of like lust or symptom management of kind of bounce your eyes, put some internet monitoring on your computer or try and just militantly fight it or on the other side would just be like this is just a common issue that everybody faces. So don't try too hard to fight it because it's completely normal. And so I think just that sense of either lust management or just shame management. Those are the two primary ways that I, I see society trying to address these problems. And so that was the decision that I had to do some research of like, what could we find out about the key drivers that are influencing people to use these behaviors and pursue these choices rather than just stigmatizing or normalizing them. So good. And thanks for sharing. So vulnerably. Yeah, I I'm so excited to get into the study. So you studied a little under four 1000 men and women who struggle with unwanted sexual behavior. He also did a bunch of robust data analysis on those findings if you would break down that study and how it was done. Uh So we, we designed a research instrument that basically looked at, you know, we looked at attachment theory like what was people's attachment like to their mothers and fathers? Were their family systems very rigid, disengaged or very emotionally enmeshed. And then we looked at what are called adverse childhood experiences. And those are the kind of the big tea and little tea traumas that we all go through anything from bullying to sexual abuse to kind of uh issues of abandonment and neglect. And then we looked at what were people dealing with in the present? From depression anxiety, uh a lack of purpose in their life and all of that has kind of been researched before. But the really fascinating and slightly maybe even intrusive thing that we did was we asked people to share, not just do they look, get porn, but what are the things that they go to the internet for? Like, what are the search terms? And so several of the major porn sites would publish, you know, the top 10, top 20 search board terms on the internet in terms of porn. So we took, I believe it was like 10 or 15 of the number, the top 15 searches that were out on the internet. And we just were like, what if we put that in the instrument as well. And we had a team at New York University handle some of the analytics with it because I don't have my background or phd and analytics, not smart enough or have the patience for that level of TDO and boredom and expertise. But uh that's what we did. We put all that together like family story, uh role that you played in your family, current problems that you're facing and what's known as the arousal template, which is kind of a constellation of thoughts, images, sensations, fantasies that bring sexual arousal to someone. And we were just really curious what we would find and that was what the data came back is if I were to say like the thesis of my work in that book, unwanted would be that, you know, sexual problems are not a life sentence to sexual shame or stigma. They're a road map to healing and growth. And so we found that sexual fantasies that people were troubled by or wanted to outgrow uh were not random at all. Uh They were actually a direct reflection of the unaddressed issues of their life. And so that's the premise of the work that I do with people is, you know, let's put the problem in the foreground. Let's get really curious about where it comes from, why it might be manifesting in this way and begin to break those things down so that we can understand what driving it. And so we can learn how to heal and then also how to outgrow it so good. And I've read a good amount on this topic, especially just in my past, having struggled with pornography and other un monos behavior and your book is just so revolutionary. There's nothing like it. And, and so that's why I wanted to talk to you. And that's why I, I love the book and I recommend it wherever I go. On. That last note that you mentioned about, um, you know, studying the specifics of people's struggle. I was really blown away about how the sexual fantasies and how the even the porn searches of the individuals in the study, like you said, could actually be predicted by their past untreated trauma. Would you go deeper into that? So, yeah, so a couple, you know, these would be more softball tosses, but I think they're good to be able to understand and break down a little bit. So we looked at, ok, let's say that you were a man and you were drawn towards kind of themes of college or teen porn or maybe you wanted to see someone that was, had a more petite body type or a race that suggested to you some level of subservience. Uh We wanted to see what was driving that and we found that the three primary drivers of that were a very rigid father growing up, a lack of purpose in their life and high levels of shame. So if we were to just play armchair psychologists, just for a moment, if you're growing up with a father who tends to be very authoritarian, very rigid part of what you experience in life is a level of powerlessness, right? So he has all the power, he makes the rules, he has the regulations and he might rule with an iron fist or it just might be like a look that can really shame you into compliance. So when you're growing up in that family, you're gonna feel powerlessness, but also probably some level of humiliation under his reign. So we have that unaddressed story, which how do you talk to your dad about that? You can't, how do you talk to friends about that? You usually don't, but that that issue has to go somewhere. So then this person grows up into someone who's trying to get their career started, but has all this unaddressed family of origin stuff that they've never addressed. And so then they feel a lack of purpose in their life. And one of the things we found in the research was that if the man is struggling with the lack of purpose, meaning he looked back over the course of his life and saw a lot of failure. He felt just a sense of being stymied or stuck with making any movement in his career. He was seven times more likely to increase his involvement in porn compared to those who had, uh, a really solid sense of purpose in their life. So we have this story that begins in childhood where you're, you have no power and then you grow up into a man and you feel like you don't have any power in your life. Well, that's one of the primary allures to pornography is not just lust or fantasy. It's a level of power that for, you know, nine minutes, 10 minutes, 30 minutes you can get exactly what you want, see exactly what you want to see and you feel like you have power and autonomy over your life. And that's a rare experience for someone like that. So as you can see if you're only trying to fight to stop using porn, but you're not fighting to discover purpose or you're not fighting to heal some of those wounds that your father afflicted you with your struggle with porn is going to remain. And so I think that's the key insight is instead of just trying to fight and unwanted behavior, go back to fight to discover the meaning embedded within it. And if we can heal that and outgrow it, then we have a really solid chance of not just like being free from porn, but far more making movement and finding flourishing in life and living a life of meaning. Precisely. There's so much more there than just, yeah, like the absence of pornography. I hope people don't misconstrue this whole series that we're doing on healing sexual Brokenness, like there's something so good on the other side. And so I love that you're, you're mentioning this. I, on a similar note, I'm fascinated, especially given that we're serving, you know, teenagers and young adults who come from what we call broken families where there's divorce, separation or just a lot of dysfunction. We're fascinated by this idea of repetition, compulsion. We don't talk about that a lot in the show. But this idea of how you might repeat behavior that you even despise. That's my understanding of it at least. And so an example that I often give is like a girl who maybe grew up with an abusive father who ends up marrying an abusive husband, even though she swore she would never do that. And so more particularly for my audience, so many of us come from families where mom or dad cheated on the other and now they're terrified of repeating that in their own relationship. Yeah. So two questions on this. Why has that happened? Like, why do we repeat these behaviors, especially in this sexual context? And perhaps more importantly, how do we avoid that? Let me address like, how do we avoid it first? And then let's go back. So there's this great quote from a guy named Richard Rohr who says the pain that we do not transform, we transmit always someone else has to suffer because I don't know how to. So uh that's what's happening intergenerational is that we have all this pain uh that a lot of us have not always been able to transform. And if we don't transform that pain, we are going to transmit it onto the next generation. And so how do we transform pain? I would say it's a matter of finding grief and finding anger. So grief is that sense of it when you're staring down the Brokenness of many generations, like, you know, the story that I shared about my grandmother when I'm dealing with my own compulsion for secrecy and shame, you know, I can either choose to try and hide that or I can try and will my way through it or I can begin to allow tears to fall with regard to. This has been a deeply broken sexual story in my family for generations, right? And so the only I think real appropriate response to that is a level of grief, but also the other side to that is a level of anger of I don't want trauma to win in my life or my kid's life. And so if we can kind of hold that razor's edge of, sometimes we need grief for some of the tragedies and heartaches that we have known. But also we need a level of anger and defiance to say like no more. Uh this is not going to continue in my family. So any of my clients that I see that are able to hold that paradox of grief and anger end up transforming their lives. So that's how we get out of it. Why does that happen? Uh We are learning more and more and more every day about why this happens. So, one of the fascinating studies uh that's been not just studies but field of studies would be epigenetics and that's the study of gene expression. And so they have done studies with uh something like water fleas. So water fleas that are exposed to a predator, they will give birth to other water fleas that are born with a helmeted or horned head. And that will remain on the water fleas for subsequent generations until the threat is removed from the water. So that's just microscopic water fleas right born with helmeted heads because of the trauma in the water. So if that's happening with water fleas, how much more is that happening with family systems? How much more is that happening with your sexual story? So, epigenetics, I think begins to answer some of that, some of the other things that we know. Uh and this would just be an adage in psychology would be uh we go to people that are familiar to us because they are familial. And so that sense of if you are used to a particular man or woman or archetype in your family, that might be compulsive or uh using substances or having a secretive life that gets coded in your neuros systems, neurobiology is like, this is just a normal person to be around. And so the people that you feel comfortable with later on in life will probably end up resembling what your body has known. And so just that sense of that's part of the repetition. Uh but the other thing I would say, and then I'll pause to see if there's any clarification would be it. You know, all of us that are growing up in these types of home have endured some level of trauma and trauma according to people like Gabor mate and Peter Levine would say that trauma is not just something that happens to us. Trauma is also what happens inside of us in the absence of an empathetic witness. And so just that sense of when the divorce occurred, when the alcoholism occurred, when there was some level of Brokenness, it wasn't just that that event occurred. The bigger question is who held your tears? Who held your rage? Uh who held your face in the midst of a family system breaking down? And if you didn't have someone that offered a face that was able to bear witness to what you went through, you have unaddressed trauma in your life and what's the impact of unaddressed trauma? Uh Three things we have fragmentation. Number one, number two would be a sense of the need to numb. And then the third would be isolation. So, fragmentation, numbing and isolation. So, fragmentation is just that sense of uh when the story is broken. When the family is broken, there's not solid ground to stand on. There is difficulty. We don't know where to go. We don't know what tomorrow looks like. We don't know what five years looks like. And so there's just a sense of how is a nine year old girl supposed to hold the reality of a family imploding or blowing up due to some particular issue where you can't. So you go from this sense of profound fragmentation of life into the need to numb and why do we numb? Well, because the pain of what we are experiencing is far too much. And so that could be finding porn is a great numbing agent, promiscuity. Uh Hooking up with people could be a great numbing agent. Uh Alcoholism, just a lot of substances or screen time can all help us numb and dissociate from the pain that we're experiencing. But then after fragmentation, after you've found kind of the go to numbing device, uh you will inevitably end up in some level of isolation from what you're experiencing. So the shame of what numbing you chose or just the reality that you don't have a lot of people in your life that are able to bear with to what you went through. You end up highly isolated in life. And that's the story that gets repeated over and over again is that we feel fragmented in our adult life. It's too painful to deal with our own family or our own career. So then we find things to numb out with and then we eventually feel isolated and then we're like, dang it. Uh I'm right back to where my family was. Why am I so screwed up? What's wrong with me? My whole family is messed up. I'm messed up. And then that's really where that sense of shame solidifies in our life. Wow. I know that's a lot. No, it's amazing. Generational trauma. But that's, that's how we heal. But also that's why it keeps happening. No, this is so relevant to our audience. And I'd invite everyone listening to actually rewind and listen to that section again because there's so much there. It's so dense. It's so rich. It's so good and there's so much I want to say, but I can relate on such a deep level to everything that you said. So I was 11 when my parents separated and that just shattered my world. Uh They later got divorced and it was just really difficult. And one of the ways that I numbed was pornography. A friend of mine introduced me to it and, um, fell into that habit. Thankfully, I was able to get it out of my life, but it was, um, certainly some an escape, a distraction from the pain in my life. That was just too much to deal with that sense of feeling just broken or fragmented like you said, I, I felt that palpably Jay, like it was palpable through high school into college. It was like, man, I just, I feel so broken. I know I need to heal and I just had no idea how to go about that, which is actually why this ministry exists because I don't want other young people going through the same thing like they deserve better. Um Another thing that you mentioned was just like going to what's familiar. So I've seen this a lot and the young people that I work with, especially when it comes to relationships. It's like, yeah, we, we end up kind of back with people who treat it as similar as our family. Like you said, even to the point that we've noticed that even to the point that healthy relationships feel boring, like they literally feel like uninteresting because we're looking for drama, we're looking for dysfunction and the lack of it seems like this might be isn't the right thing and, and that is just mind blowing as well, so, so much to say there. But thank you for going through it and just want to give you a chance to comment on any of that. Yeah, it's heartbreaking to see these patterns be repeated. But I think that that there's yeah, there's so much in there for healing and growth and I think that's, I mean, that's what we talking about is like there are so many things in our present life that do need to be addressed, that we do need to heal, that we do need to outgrow. But if you are engaging that issue with a level of contempt, like how could I be so stupid or what's wrong with me? Uh You're not going to heal or grow and so growth and healing require a level of curiosity and kindness. And that's what we're getting at is, can you at least be curious about why you might be drawn to the partner that you're drawn to? Can you be kind to the reality that you have an unaddressed sexual struggle uh that you don't know what to do with and most of your efforts to change that uh have actually, you know, thickened the plot. And, and I think again, if we can hold that razor's edge between, how can I be curious, how can I be kind? But also I have a lot of integrity with regard to, I don't want this to, to ruin my relationships. And I don't want this to rob my experience of joy in life. That's really where change will begin to unfold. Makes so much sense. I, I think one of the struggles for this audience in particular coming from these divorced families especially is that so often um because divorce is so common, it becomes so normalized, it's not even called the trauma. So that point that you mentioned about isolation people, I can't tell you today, like how many people we've heard who reach out and say, like I just feel so validated, listening to interviews like this, hearing the experts, like you on the show talk about this stuff because it's just so freeing. And um one other thing I wanted to mention on repetition, compulsion was, um I've noticed and I've heard this from other psychologists as well that you so sometimes kind of go down that path of that unhealthy behavior that you observed growing up almost in an attempt to rewrite the ending of the story. It's like, well, you know, dad or mom cheated on the other. If I maybe start going down that path, I can end it in a way that I wanted them to do that. But uh any final thoughts on that before we move on. Yeah, I mean, there's so much there. Uh one thing that I was thinking about when you were talking uh would just be like we have to think about this in terms of attachment as well. So like when you know, when you, when there's a divorce that happens, your attachments are severed. And so that you found porn at a point where your attachments were severed, that's the work that we want people to be doing is, you know, how have these broken attachments with a mom or a dad actually? Like where is that playing itself out? And for a lot of people, they begin to kind of get a sense of I would never felt attached to my mom or my dad. But that first time that they experience porn or that first time that they uh took a substance, it was like a warm hug that they had never had before. And so that, I mean, I think just even that language would be just really important to understand your attachment. So the point that you were making with regard to people feeling validated and listening to your podcast, um a a little bit bit of kind of neuroscience on that and brain neuroscience, I guess as well would be we have something in the left uh prefrontal lobe called Broca's area. And Broca's area is what's responsible for speech. And so any time that there is a trauma, Broca's area goes offline and so you may have even had that experience in your adolescence or childhood where you know, the divorce happened or something rocked your family and then people are like, how are you? And it's just an aggravating awful question because you're like, I don't know what to say to this. It's like I have no freaking words for what I have been through. I don't know how I talk about any of this kind of stuff. Well, why is that? It's not because you're dumb. It's not because you're stupid and just can't articulate something. It is a form of trauma where Broca's area goes offline. And so again, back to the empathetic witness, but also Brene Brown talks about this in her newest book, she quotes a German philosopher who says that the limits of my language are the limits of my world. And so that's part of what this podcast is doing and what you're doing is you're expanding people's language, which is expanding their world, which is helping them make sense of what they have been through. And so that's where, you know, having an empathetic witness, but also a podcast or just any language that helps people name what they've never been able to name before. Uh group therapy, really important for people coming out of these types of family systems as well because you get to hear other people's experience and you're like, yeah, I had that experience as well like, yeah, moving schools or the shame in my community or you know, how do I deal with the relief of it was really good to get that narcissistic man or what and out of the house. Uh So grateful I can kind of date my life before my mom left and then after she left because it got so much better for me. So we just never quite know in sharing our stories with one another. Uh what's gonna resonate and then what's going to help us develop and cultivate our language for what we've lived through? Wow, so good. And I appreciate all that. If people want to learn more about the neurobiology, neuroscience, are there any books that you recommend starting with because I could tell this is so relevant to our audience. Yeah, I mean, a lot of the, I I would say the body keeps the score by Bessel Van Der Kolk is a great um initial read. If people haven't read it, it's just, I think it breaks down pretty complex uh neuroscience and just the understanding of a lot of what we're talking about, of how does how does the body keep the score from what we have been through? So I would say go there first and then Gabor Mate, uh the myth of normal dives into some of that as well. So there's a lot more neuroscience coming out around all this. But I would say start with Bessel Van Der Kolk or Gara mate. Thanks for that. And I know everyone will, will love hearing that if you were to add anything. Like let's say you were to sit down with a young person. You already said so much. I think that applies to this. But let's say if you're going to sit down with the young person to have that difficult conversation with them about, yeah, just them wrestling with, dealing with their mom and their dad cheating on the other. Would you add anything to what you've already said if you were to again sit across from them and just help them wrestle with that? Mhm. Well, I think it's like the, what's the meaning that they made out of the affair. Right. So, um that's just really important to get a sense of, you know, were there details that they were privy to that, you know, sometimes it was a sense of, it wasn't just the detail of the affair, but they had some sense that their mom or their dad lacked integrity in other areas of their life as well. So, were they brought in, you know, there's just, there's so many different ways that this could play out within a family. So some families, it could be, I, you know, my dad was always traveling and on business and so it, it was never a surprise that he had something of a hidden life or it could be that some parents bring their Children into some of the drama and some of the love affair of what they are developing. So there's this sense of, you know, what did your parent ask you to hold? Was it more emotionally and mesh leading up to that affair? Or was there just more neglect and abandonment? And then that usually has implications from there of kind of what I would follow. So those issue, those questions that you're asking are so good Joey, but it's also, it's so contextual to, yeah, what's the family system like? And you know, all of us have, even though my dad's name is John and my mom's name is Beth. I have a different relationship to my mom than any of my siblings. Uh they have a different relationship to my mom than any of us. So even though we have the same mom, each of us have different mothers. We have different fathers. And so uh that's usually the work of therapy is to kind of get a sense of who was your mother father to you, but also who were they to you as well? Love that. And I think it's an important reminder that there's not just like this one size fits all five step plan to heal anything in your life. Like it is so contextual, like you said, it is so personal and I think it is that way for a reason because like you said, healing happens in relationships. And so, well, that's a relationship with a therapist, a friend, a mentor. We really need people to go into that depth, into the darkness, into the Brokenness with us. In order to come out the other side, we really can't do it alone. And for someone like me who's just like, I've noticed this a lot with our audience too. Like we developed this sort of fierce independence because we felt like, well, you know, I can't really rely on mom and dad, like they're so busy, boring with each other that I kind of have to learn how to stand on my own 2 ft. And then we carry this Brokenness with us through life and these unwanted behaviors. And it's like, man, I really want to get these out of my life. But I have this tendency to just rely on no one just to rely on myself to have this first independence and it puts you in a really tough spot. Yeah. So two things there, part of what we're talking about is the role that each person developed within their family system and you've got to understand your role. So for some people there is that approach of, I can't rely on anyone from here on out. And then yes, you develop a life of a lot of secretive behaviors because you're trying to make your life work outside of the context of relationship. And so that's, you know, the work of healing is to be able to say, I bless that boy, that girl that figured out a way to get through life through being fiercely independent. But then usually at some point in your thirties or forties, there's usually going to be a crisis of the person that you became in response to your trauma is now causing new problems. And so that's always the paradox of this work is let's bless that adolescent, that young adult that learned a way of life to help them survive. But anything that we begin to lean on in the aftermath of trauma will inevitably create problems for us later on in life. And we've got to address that. So that's one role, another role might be, you know, it's the, the son or the daughter who their mother or father never got the therapy or the friendship that they needed in the aftermath of the trauma. And so that child feels like I can't really go off to live my own independent life because I need to kind of tend to my mother or to my father because if I don't, I am something of their lifeline. And so it's that sense of the umbilical cord is still connected to your mother because you feel that sense of if I go off and live my own life, she's gonna be alone. And so I will sacrifice some of my desires and some of my independence. Uh so that she doesn't have to face some of this loneliness. And so then you try and get married, maybe you do get married and then there's this fierce loyalty of like, you know, my spouse wants me to be doing this, but then I really need to go on vacation or at least make a family visit to my grandmother or, or to my mom or to my dad. And again, what is that exposing? It's exposing the role that you learned how to play in a very broken system. And so, you know, don't think that just because you're fiercely independent, you have escape trauma, but also don't think because like you're still very enmeshed with your family system that that event from 20 years ago is still not affecting your life today. So in the words of kind of the writer Faulkner, the, the past is not dead. It's not even past meaning it's playing out right now. One of my guests said that sometimes the past lives in the present. I thought that that's exactly what you're saying. It's, it's so true. And I think that's the work of feeling that we can put the past in the past and live fully in the present, which is beautiful man. There's so much I want to ask you, but let's switch gears a little bit. I was so fascinated by the connection you made in the book between Lust and Anger. Just mind blowing. You said this. You said, I believe male anger to be at the heart of much of the sexual Brokenness and violation in our world want to find out why you're so compelled to pursue unwanted sexual behavior. Figure out what makes you so angry, what's happening here? Why does anger drive those behaviors? Yeah. So we need to think about kind of these behaviors, unwanted sexual behaviors as a river. And so the comparison that I make would be like, think about your unwanted sexual behavior as like a river no different than the Mississippi. And so why is the Mississippi river so powerful? Well, it's because it's fed by so many other tributaries. So the Missouri, the Arkansas, Tennessee Red, I forget how many tributaries the Mississippi has, but it's a lot. And so that sense of what we're dealing with is not just one issue. Uh There are several tributaries that flow into it. And so uh in a lot of kind of faith based communities, they always address, they always try to address the issue of lust. And so what they do is they try and put a dam on that river and they put internet monitoring there. They try and get people into invasive voyeuristic accountability groups. Uh They try to get people to kind of just will themselves to kind of dam it up so that it doesn't flow. And then they find out that it, you know, maybe might work for a little bit, but then it, it inevitably fails. Well, they, they've only looked at one tributary which would be some level of lust, but they haven't looked at other things like unaddressed trauma. They haven't looked at family of origin issues. They haven't looked at the issue of anger. And so anger would just be that sense of, you know, that the man that I was describing earlier with regard to lack of purpose in his life. And also, you know, some level of a rigid father, well, that anger has to go somewhere and for a lot of people, if you don't have a and most of us don't have a context in our world today to talk about the anger of a broken family, to talk about the anger uh that we have towards our moms towards our dads or towards just really anything, uh, any presidential candidate, like we are a people that have so much unaddressed anger in our lives and it's being lived out always. And so that's one of the appeals to porn. You know, let's say that you're in a marriage and someone doesn't like sex as much as you do and you feel like there's some desire discrepancy. Well, if you don't tend to that with honor and delight for one another, there is going to be a sense of I'm angry at you. So I'm gonna go behind your back and feel really justified doing what I want to do because you don't desire sex as much as I do. So therefore, I'm gonna take my anger to this world of porn. Uh Or maybe, maybe you didn't get the promotion that you wanted at work and you feel like that person that so undeserving got it. Well, what are you gonna do with that? Anger? And a lot of times people will begin to find that porn or an affair really begins to kind of help soothe them and calm them down after they're really angry or upset about something. So again, there's just so many different key drivers and don't think that you can just address it through trying to combat lust. It's just, it's not an effective approach. It's a losing battle for sure. Elsewhere in the book, you say this, you say the first key childhood driver of unwanted sexual behavior is having a family system that was characterized as rigid and or disengaged. You mentioned that earlier in the show, Dr Patrick Cars, one of the leading researchers on sexual compulsivity found that 77% of those who struggle with sexual addiction report coming from a rigid family and 87% percent report coming from a disengaged family. I know we can't go too deep into this. But what are the characteristics of those family, families and anything else to add on why they play such a big role? Sure. So, I mean, a rigid family really comes down to this issue of kind of discipline. So discipline for some families might be, yeah, like a, a paddle, corporal punishment. But it could also be something more subtle where you just knew that like you needed to get straight A's or you were gonna be interrogated by a mother or a father. Uh It's usually some sense of like we need conformity in this family because conformity gives us some level of stable ground to lean on. But then if you don't conform in some way, there's usually some discipline that you have to undergo. Well, what's the root word of discipline? Uh It is a disciple which means to teach. And so that's the really key question is, was the disc was the discipline in your home? Did it help you to understand your emotions and why you did the things that you did or was it really trying to use control based methods against you? Um And that's usually, uh you know, a big part of those rigid families is it's gonna create a lot of powerlessness, a lot of humiliation. And so you have to take that somewhere. So what I say in my book is that a rigid family creates fertile soil for anger to emerge, what we were just talking about disengaged family systems would be, you know, much more abandonment and neglect. It's just the sense that care is overlooked in your life. Um And so just from that attachment standpoint that we grow up looking for someone looking for us. And this never ever stops. As long as we are alive and conscious is that we're looking for the delight. We're looking for the faces of people in our world to love us, affirm us, be there for us. And if we are looking out into our family system and there is no loving, compassionate, a deeply delighting face that is given back to us, we are going to scan the horizon looking for someone to look at us. And a lot of times that's what will happen where I will hear people that come from disengaged family systems. And it's like, yeah, the first time that I saw porn, what I was drawn to were the eyes of someone in the porn film because it felt like they were looking into my soul. And I had never had that experience of someone just kind of looking deeply and wanting me. Well, that's an attachment womb that's being sexualized into porn. And so what I say in my book is that disengaged family systems, create fertile soil for lust to emerge. And so I think that's the work is we've got to not just fight against a sexual problem. We've got to go back to the core stories with our parents, with our families. Uh where there is unaddressed, anger and unaddressed grief in our life. Absolutely. No. So good. And, and you're hitting on stuff that this audience deals with so much. So, thank you for, for going into this so well, I've heard you also speak about this tension in families between honor and honesty. Again, we can't go into it too deeply. But what does that look like? And how do you hit that proper balance? Because so many of the young people that I walk with, they really struggle with that, you know, there's like this protection they have of their parents even though they harm them in a lot of ways. Um But they still love them and you know, we want to honor that. So, so how do you hit that balance between the two? So yes, I think we have to hold the tension between honor and honesty. And I would say most people had believed the lie that if I am honest about my mother or father or faith community that I could not truly honor them or the other realm would be if I honored my mother or father or faith community, I could not actually be honest about what I experienced. And I just to point out like that is not the way it is supposed to be. So I think of some of the, you know, ancient. So something like the story of Abraham uh that is held by many different faiths. We know that Abraham in kind of Genesis 12 left everything that he was supposed to leave to go into this land that God had called him to. Uh he is the father of many faiths. And at the same time, we also know that he tried to traffic his wife at least twice. And so it's this sense of like it, the, you know, the Bible is an ancient near east document, which means it's much more of like an Eastern context than anything we would know about it in the western world. So in the western world, we might tend to bend a bit more towards just trying to be honest, uh and unbridled honesty in our day age, but we don't always have honor. But in an, in an Eastern context, I mean, it's all family honor. So just that sense of like we're able to hold, you know, the paradox of this person is full of faith, but they're also a profound coward. And that's the work is, you know, when I've had to address my own family system, I've had to understand that, you know, my dad was consistently reading psychology and theological text together. And so when I think back to my origins of how did I learn how to integrate kind of faith and psychology and being naturally curious about why things work the eyes in the heart and the brain that I have were formed by many conversations with my dad throughout my childhood. So I can honor him for that. But I also have to be honest, that much of the debris in my life and difficulty with attaching and feeling my emotions and having the ability to kind of know what to do with some of the heartache and trauma in my life and his abandonment of my family. And in very significant moments is something that I've had to grow increasingly honest about. And so I think that's the work is uh I, I deeply love my dad and honor him for who he is. And he's a deeply broken man that created a lot of debris in our family. And that Brokenness is not grounds for separation or blame. But I think it's that sense of the grief in our family and in the midst of honoring and being honest about our grief. I think that allows for a new family life to emerge where it's not trying to keep up the appearance of what the stringer family name was supposed to represent. But it's also not trying to kind of just be cruel and angry with one another. But it's a sense of the honesty creates a new foundation of intimacy and that's what we're after. Beautiful and that's healing in itself. We're almost out of time here. But in order to break free, you know, you say that you need to listen to your lust, you mentioned that before. I love, love your analogy of imagining your sexual life as a house. Would you explain that? Yeah. So it probably should have addressed this early on in case people are like, why would I think about my sexual fantasies or porn searches? But uh the basic premise here would be I encourage people to think about their sexual life as a house. So just imagine it's late in the evening and they feel that familiar knock of lust or desire come to their door and just that sense of what are you gonna do in that moment? And some people will, you know, put a force field around their house, they will try and just say no, they might call a friend and say I'm really struggling or other times you just resign to like it's worse to fight this thing. So I'm just gonna let it in and let it ransack various rooms of my house. So as you can see most of the approaches that we take, either try to stiff arm these issues or they just kind of like, let them in. And so the approach that I take in my book and some of the online courses that I have is what would it mean for you to go out onto the front porch of your life and begin to ask your sexual life questions? Like, I wonder why this form of pornography has been appealing to me since I was the age of 15? Or? I wonder why I, I tend to be most seduced into an affair or to porn on a Sunday evening instead of the other days of the week. I wonder what's happening there. Uh So I want people to just develop a sense of curiosity about their life. So get out onto the front porch, ask your sexual life questions. Why am I drawn to this? Why do I love this? I wonder what the meaning is within this particular fantasy or I wonder why I can't reach orgasm without thinking about this particular person or this archetype or this fantasy. And I think that's the, that's the work of healing. It's a bit odd and counterintuitive at first. But I think curiosity can really take us so much further than just a desire to militantly fight something or uh even just praying over and over again to find healing. Uh I just, I think that those, that repetition just doesn't, it's not very generative for us. Yeah. No, so good. I love this approach. So much better than kind of what's typically thrown out there, like less management mastery in some way, like you say. So. Good Jay, you're the man. Thank you so much for your time. I don't want to keep you any longer if people want to get the book and the course in order to kind of be guided through everything that we talked about. How do they do that and how do they find you online as well? Probably the best would be just Instagram uh A Y underscore Stringer underscore the reason for all the underscores is I think there's another British crime fiction that is also J Stringer. So which is actually he was first to market it. Yes, those are your secret identity, right? Yes, exactly. So uh you can find me there website is jay dash stringer dot com and there are assessments that people can take uh if you want to learn this approach and learn the key drivers, there's what's called the sexual behavior self assessment that you can take. Uh the journey course is a faith based course for people that are looking for a new paradigm to address this. Uh unwanted is my book. And then we do a lot of individual intensives uh with my team. And then we also have a training program for leaders. So if you are a therapist, if you are a coach, a clergy of any kind, uh if you're in any type of leadership position, helping people to outgrow these problems we have what's called the unwanted guide program. And that's a 13 week training for professionals to help them understand their own story so that they are more effective in, in teaching others. So good Jay. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for everything you've done. I want to give you the, the last word quickly. Any final words of encouragement or advice for everyone listening, especially those who struggle with unwanted sexual behavior. I just keep going back to curiosity versus contempt. And most of us the way that we tend to engage our own life, our own relational life, our own sexual life is principally out of self contempt or other centered contempt and contempt, especially for us who have known trauma feels really powerful. Why? Because within fragmentation in our current life, fragmentation from our past, we need a sense of sure footing and contempt provides us with a sense of certainty in the midst of uncertainty. So if you can resist the temptation to choose contempt for yourself or to someone else, and you can begin to get curious about your life or someone else's life, it will be so much more beautiful, so much more transformative than anything else that you could choose. So give curiosity a try. Wow, Jay is amazing. His content in his book is just so so helpful. And the main takeaway from this episode, as you can tell is your sexual Brokenness is not random. It's not random. The key to healing. It is actually understanding why you struggle in the particular ways that you do. And Jay's book will help you do that again. It's titled Unwanted. How Sexual Brokenness Reveals our way to healing. Just click on the link in the show notes. If you want to buy that, I highly highly recommend it. And if you're not ready to buy the book, you can get the first chapter for free by going to J dash stringer dot com slash book or just clicking on the link in the show notes. So often as you can tell from this episode at the root of sexual compulsion or Brokenness is trauma. But before you can heal it, you have to understand it. Our free mini on trauma titled Why You Feel Broken consists of five short videos by a trauma therapist that answer the questions. What is trauma? What impact does it have on your body? How does it affect your emotions? What does it do to your mind and how does it impact your relationships again? Once you understand what trauma is and how it's affecting you today, then you can begin to heal and build a life that you long for to get the free mini course. It's really easy to just go to restored ministry dot com slash broken again. Restored ministry ministry is singular dot com slash broken to sign them for free and begin watching the mini course again. Go to restored ministry dot com slash broken or just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them and closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of CS Lewis who said you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#101: Healing Sexual Brokenness: Freedom from Porn | Matt Fradd & Jason Evert

When it comes to pornography, there are basically two types of people:

• Those who believe that porn is wrong and harmful. 

• And those who do not.

But beyond the arguments, millions of people struggle with a pornography compulsion or addiction. They want to break free, but they feel stuck and hopeless. No matter what they try, it doesn’t work.

In this episode, popular speakers and authors Matt Fradd and Jason Evert join me to answer these tough questions: 

• Is porn harmful and wrong? If so, why? 

• What does it do your brain and your relationships?

• How do you actually break free from porn?

• What resources are out there to help you or someone you care about?

Buy the Book: Forged: 33 Days Toward Freedom by Jason Evert and Matt Fradd

Buy the Book: The Porn Myth: Exposing the Reality Behind the Fantasy of Pornography by Matt Fradd

Get the FREE Mini-Course: Why You Feel Broken

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Magdala Ministries

• Bloom for Catholic Women

• Jay Stringer Website

• Jason Evert Podcast

  • Lust is Boring Podcast

• Matt Fradd

  • Pints With Aquinas Podcast

• Books

  • Uncompromising Purity | Kelsey Skoch with Everett Fritz

  • I Believe in Love | Jean C. J. d'Elbée

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When it comes to the topic of pornography, there are basically two types of people, those who believe that porn is wrong and harmful and those who do not. But beyond the intellectual argument, millions of people right now are struggling with the pornography compulsion or addiction. They want to break free but feel stuck and hopeless and no matter what they try, it just doesn't work. They always seem to fall back into it. In this episode. Popular speakers and authors, Matt Fred and Jason never join me to answer these tough questions, is porn harmful and wrong. And if so why, what does it do to your brain and your relationships? How do you actually break free from porn? What resources are out there to help you or someone you care about? And finally, we discuss a 33 day resource to help you break free. If you believe that porn is not wrong or harmful, this episode will just give you a lot to think about. And I challenge you to listen with an open mind. And if you struggle with a porn addiction or compulsion, not only will you be given tactics to break free, but more importantly, you'll be given encouragement not to lose hope. So, keep listening, welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panelli. This is episode 101. This episode is actually part three of our podcast series called Healing Sexual Brokenness. So typically on this show, we feature stories and expert interviews about how to heal from the trauma of your parents', divorce and broken family or how to navigate the pain and the problems that stem from it. And one of the biggest problems that often stems from your family's breakdown is unwanted sexual behavior, like pornography, masturbation, hook up culture, paying for sex infidelity and so much more. In fact, one expert found that almost 90% of those who struggle with sexual addiction come from a broken family. And so in this series, you'll get tactics and resources to overcome unwanted sexual behavior so you can find freedom and a little trigger warning. This is obviously a mature topic. So we would definitely recommend putting in earphones or at least not listening around Children with that. My guests today are Jason Everett and Matt Fred. Ja is a speaker, author and podcast host. He's traveled to six continents, speaking to millions of people for the past 25 years. He's lectured at dozens of universities including Harvard Princeton and the United States Naval and Air Force Academies. He's a best selling author of more than 15 books, including How To Find Your Soulmate without losing your soul. The Dating Blueprint and Forged. He and his wife Crystalline are frequent guests on radio shows and podcasts throughout the country. And their television appearances include MS NBC Fox News, the BBC and EWTN. Their resources have been distributed in over 40 countries helping teens and young adults to build authentic love. Jason earned a bachelor's degree in theology and undergraduate degrees in counseling and theology with a minor in philosophy at Franciscan University of Steubenville. Actually, my alma mater as well. Jason lives in Arizona with his wife and kids. Matt Fred is the creator and host of the popular podcast, Pints with Aqua. He's the author and co-author of several books, including the porn myth and delivered. Matt earned his undergraduate and graduate degrees in philosophy from Holy Apostles College and Seminary which also awarded him an honorary doctorate. He lives in Steubenville, Ohio with his wife Cameron and their four kids. Quickly, I want to let you know that Matt's connection was a little bit spotty during the interview. So I apologize in advance. You should be able to make up most of it, but it is a little bit spotty. Here's my conversation with Jason and Matt. Matt and Jason. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having us on. Thank you. Pleasure to have you. There's two types of people listening right now, there's people who believe that there's nothing wrong with pornography that it's not damaging. Uh, but then there's also people who do believe that there's something wrong that it is damaging, but they struggle to break free. And so in this conversation, I want to talk to both people. But let's start with the first to everyone listening. Who doesn't believe that there's anything wrong with pornography. If they came up to you and asked, what's wrong with pornography? Why is pornography wrong? If you had to put it in just one sentence, I'm curious, what would your answer be? And then I'd love for you to elaborate on it. Let's start with Jason. What's your one sentence? I would say that it's because people who are created to be loved and pornography is the opposite of that because it's using another person instead of loving them beautiful matt. Yeah, I would say that over the last 40 years, there's been a ton of research that's come out of academia, different branches of science, like neurology, psychology, and sociology. And all of it says unambiguously that pornography is detrimental to the consumer, to our relationships to society. So if you're interested in science and you're pro science, then that should at least get you interested in in some good reason to so good, let's go deeper there. Then Jason, what else would you say on this topic? And one of the things I learned from you when I heard you speak uh years ago when I was a freshman in high school is porn destroys your ability to love. And so if you want authentic love, porn is not your best bet. Yeah. No, people will say, well, porn doesn't really hurt anybody. I don't know that you could get a statement more factually untrue than that one. I mean, the, the user, his capacity to love is, as you said, is diminished, the person behind the camera, the person filming it, the person in the scene. I I just think that porn only exists because it shows so little of the person because if it actually showed the full woman or the full porn star, what's actually going on in her life, how she was sexually abused when she was eight years old by her uncle that she was raped on a date when she was 18. Uh Then when she was 21 she entered into this, I remember one woman who had had that she decided to quit after being in the porn industry after her fourth abortion, she said I just couldn't take it anymore. But could you imagine if you saw this full picture? Uh like I'd known of one woman. She said that after the, the filming of the scene, it only took three minutes for the whole finished thing to be done. But the filming of it took hours and hours and hours and she was just brutalized. During it and she said it was so bad that when it was done, I had to go to the hospital. Uh but the, the porn producer was such a jerk. He didn't even drive her there. He called an Uber to take her to the, er, after the filming. But imagine if the viewer you saw this, ok, this scene that I'm seeing right here, uh A child that is conceived during this scene is gonna be aborted six weeks later and this woman had to go to the er, afterwards and this and that, like, how could you possibly get gratification out of staring at something like that? If you saw the full picture, you saw the full woman porn would go out of business overnight. That's why it has to reduce the woman only to her sexual value and show nothing else. And so, yeah, the viewers capacity to love is harmed. Kids are harmed, the porn. I mean, everybody's harmed and so we got to ditch that, you know, objection right away and then Matt. Yeah, let's, I, that's wonderful. Jason. It's like we've reduced morality to, if it doesn't hurt, it's OK, which is just a real reduction of the way we should be viewing anyway. Two people can choose to do things that hurt them and that doesn't make it ok. There's a famous story in Germany of a man who had always wanted to eat another one and a man who had always wanted to be eaten. They got together and this actually occurred, both of them consented to it. But I would hope that most people, all people would say this is horrific. Obviously, that's a very intense example. But in pornography, even when two people consent to degrading each other or consent to me lusting over them, people are still being hurt and this is still a perversion of the, the sexual faculty. It, it makes it such that it isn't as it should be. And I had, I had once heard also in the occult kind of the motto uh for witchcraft is harm ye none. And so basically saying, don't harm anybody and then you do whatever you want. But it's like, ok, if that's a good enough motto for the witches, shouldn't we shoot a little bit higher in our own ethical life. And so that should be a red flag. If we think that that consent is the highest good, there's got to be other goods higher than that. Then the greatest of which is love. And Jason I've heard you say, and I'd love you to expound upon this that it's like we reduce our morality in the sexual realm to so long as I'm not raping her, I'm basically at the pinnacle of masculine morality or something. Yeah, like, well, she agreed to everything. How could I be in the wrong? And I, I convinced her to do this and I convinced her to that and she was ok doing this. Well, we're good. It's like, dude, where's your moral backbone? I mean, where's your compass? It's like his barometer is what she's willing to do. And as long as I'm not forcing her to do anything. Oh, I'm quite the gentleman. It's like, ok, I think we got to set the bar a little higher here. Fellas. We couldn't agree more. Matt. Let's go deeper into the science. So, what does pornography do to your brain? And if you wanna talk about what it does to your relationships too, yes. Well, we used to say that only drugs can be addictive and since pornography isn't a drug, it's not something being injected or ingested, it's therefore not addictive. But since, uh, neuroscientist started looking into the brain, it's changed how they understand addiction. They now think that behaviors can be as addictive substances can. And we've heard, we hear a lot about dopamine these days but that when somebody consumes pornography on a regular basis, sort of downgrading occurs in the brain so that the brain cannot feel as it were dopamines effects in a way that it once did. And because of this, the brain is in a state of dopamine craving. And that's why the person immersed in pornography feels the need to perhaps watch more pornography and even more violent or shocking forms of it just to boost those dopamine levels up enough, uh, to get the same kick he did in the beginning, I heard someone use this analogy. He said, if you were on the phone with somebody and they started yelling, you might remove the phone away from your ear and you'd be able to hear them. But if they started to speak, normally you wouldn't be able to hear them unless you brought it back up to your ear again. And likewise, if I spend so much of my time looking at pornography, it's as if my brain is being shouted at by dopa. And when I shut that laptop lid and go out into the world and try to enjoy the things I've, I used to enjoy. I can't feel or hear dopamines effects as it were as I once did. And this is why people immersed in pornography tend to lose interest in very good and beautiful things that you find interesting and obviously that has a negative impact on not just romantic relationships but friendships and family life. Absolutely. Jason anything. Yeah. And I once heard that the one, the pleasure center of the brain uh is the medial preoptic nucleus. And it's very easy to train you think of Pavlov's dog. You know, he'd feed the dog a be ring a bell, feed the dog. And eventually he just ring the bell dog salivates. And what happens is when we get immersed in this world of fantasy and porn, we essentially train our brains to associate sexual joy with dirty, illicit, forbidden sexual fantasies that are always new. But then you transition to a real relationship and your wife is not dirty. She's not illicit, she's not forbidden. She's not a fantasy. She's not ever new. And, and there's a mad thing, like, how, how do you readjust? How do you be, like, ok, I just taught my brain that what is most sex satisfying is something other than a human relationship. And then I try to enter a human relationship and, well, she can't put up with my porn problem. Well, she must be approved. It must be her issue. I'm not actually cheating on you and you could just see how it would deteriorate the very fiber of that relationship because of what it's done to the guy's brain or to the girl's brain because we got to be fair. This isn't just some guy issue. More and more women are struggling this as well. Get, getting into this sometimes out of curiosity. Like, what do I need to look like? What do I need to do? What do I need to be? But I need, we need to remind them that they were never even created to be porn and they were created to be loved. A good point. I love that. I think often I've been thinking about this more and more about how porn lies to us. But, but in a way that's it. It's so much more insidious and goes so much deeper than we often realize And I know for me when I started to, when I became a Christian at the age of 17 and started to try not to look at pornography or masturbate, that sort of stuff. I kind of had this intellectual conversion where I realized that I probably shouldn't be treating people as consumable goods, you know, like animate providers of pleasure. And I kind of thought, well, that's it. Like I, I understand it now but, you know, I've been married 17 years and I still wrestle with liars that I apparently are still holding on to at some level about what pornography and what Hollywood has taught me about the way what women are, how they should respond, how they should desire these sorts of things. So, it's, yeah, I just, just to that point, I think it's a lot more insidious and goes a lot deeper than we often realize it sinks very deeper. It's just, and I remember you having like points about what porn teaches men about women. Some, like the, the value of a woman is determined by how much lust she provides to you. Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, that, that's a, that's a big one. I mean, wouldn't even start there of just like, ok, then you start treating women according to how much lust they're generating in you. And if I don't feel a lot of lust towards that woman, then I don't even treat, give her the time of day. Whereas this one, you know, is really sexually alluring and so all treat her in a different way. And so you become very utilitarian just using people according to what you're getting out of this arrangement. And for the guy who's getting hooked on this stuff, I think in a sense he's, he's got that moment of male validation in her eyes that the way she looks at me is like, I'm handsome, I'm desirable. I'm powerful. I'm good, I'm sex and all these things that I really don't think that I am. But just for the moment, she makes me feel those things and then you get on this high and then you walk out of the world and just crash afterwards of just like, wait a minute, the girls in my gym, the girls at the mall, like nobody's looking at me that way. In fact, they look down at me if they were to find what type of guy I am behind closed doors. And so there's a lot of power in the way that a woman I think presents herself to a man. And there's a lot of power in the way that a man looks at a woman and, and whether he's looking at her as a thing as a collection of body parts, I think women can sense that from 100 yards away and, and it creates this kind of restless vulnerability and resentment in the woman towards the guy and even perhaps towards her sexuality itself where she could even swear sexuality. I'm asexuals. I'm not into any of that stuff because of how porn fi it's become. But likewise, if a man grows in purity of heart, uh he can give his beloved this piece of the way that he looks at her. Like, wow, he's not looking at me for something he can get from me. He sees me as his respected and beloved companion. And I think everyone wants to be seen that way and every man wants to get to the point where he can look at his beloved that way. But porn really ensnares us in this cycle of OK, you make me feel valid, you make me feel manly. But then when it's all over, you feel like I'm not a man, I'm just a boy trapped in a man's body. And so to find freedom, obviously, we got, it's not enough to say, hey, look, this is why it's bad. This is why it's damaging. We got to get to deeper roots to find healing. We often talk about the feminine genius, but I would say that the masculine genius could be summed up as strength on behalf of others. But uh with pornography, it's, it's the opposite. It's I'm taking your strength to validate my poor self esteem or something like that. I think we all kind of realize that look to a woman to validate my masculinity is not the way to go. And I think at our core we know that that's fake. But Jason, like you're saying, like you said before, Matt too, there's something about it that's so ensnaring. Like we get back to it even if it is fake and maybe that's, maybe that's just so important to begin with. Like, pornography. Thank you. Perfect. Right. Like, it'll make you feel alive, you know, really important to say those things. If it didn't, it wouldn't be this multibillion dollar industry and people wouldn't find it so difficult to quit. But then you go a little deeper than that, say, well, what's pornography promising? And, and what is it actually resulting in? You know, because I don't know if I'm parroting Jason here, I'm sure you said something to this effect, but it promises us freedom and we find slavery, promises us entertainment, we become bored, it promises us adult, adult entertainment. We become increasingly juvenile. So it does give us something in the short term, but it leaves us emasculated, bored and um unfulfilled. And anybody who's looked at pornography I think is aware of that. Like, that's just a common experience that men have when they and I'm sure women when they engage in pornography during the anticipation and act, it, it might feel incredibly rewarding in a but then as soon as it's done, you're like, oh my gosh, what the hell am I doing with this beautiful gift of sexuality? And there's a reason we feel like that. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think so much of it is also sought after for some sense of adventure, some sense of like, you know, the rest of your life kind of, you were saying before Jason might feel incredibly boring, you might feel so unvalidated. Um, but pornography feels exciting, it feels like some sort of an adventure. So, I mean, I guess the challenge there for people is like, go find real adventures. They're out there. I mean, people for thousands of years have found that sort of adventure. It doesn't need to be found. And that's Jason. Did you have some say in that? Yeah. Sometimes when I talk to people about trying to break free, one of the first things I encourage them to do it. Ok. Look at, when are you messing up? Where are you messing up? What's the circumstances there? Are you bored? Are you lonely? Are you angry? Are you stressed out? Are you tired and perfect? Yeah. Yeah. When I'm bored or, you know, it's when I'm all stressed out, I go to that for some relief. But it's in a sense a bit like alcoholism. They say that the emotional age at which you get hooked on alcohol and I would say drugs, porn, whatever is the emotional age at which you remain until you learn how to cope with moments of desolation with healthy consolations instead of false cons. And so I'm bored, I'm lonely. I'm angry. I'm stressed. I'm tired. Boom. I'm on my laptop, I'm into porn. Did it solve the problem temporarily? Yeah. I mean, just for the moment I was on that I could forget about all this other stuff I felt wanted. I wasn't lonely, certainly wasn't bored for that time being. And, you know, and, and it seems like, ok, it solves the problem then as soon as it's over, all the problems are there and they're deeper. And so it's like, ok, I'm bored, I'm only, I'm angry, I'm stressed, I'm tired. Maybe you need to take a nap. Maybe you need to go for a jog. Maybe you need to connect with your family. Maybe you need to get a job, maybe to get off video games, maybe you need to go, go for a hike, go, go bench press, like go sweat, like go do something, get some healthy dopamine, flooding through your system instead of always thinking like, ok, sitting on my couch all day on flipping through Instagram reels. Why do you think you're bored out of your mind? Why do you think you're lonely? Because the only things that would actually remedy this thing is getting off the screen, engaging in reality and doing something noble. And so obviously, it takes a little bit more effort to do that. But that's the only way that you become a man when you're able to say, yeah, I am bored. I am lonely. I'm not, I'm really lonely right now. What do I gotta do about that? Well, maybe I should start up a young adult group at my church and get to meet 30 people. Maybe that would work better than the porn website. Jason. I'm curious, what effect does pornography have in addition to what you already said? What effect does pornography have on a macro level on our culture? Uh, I mean, it's, it's impossible. I mean, how much time we got about four hours you could dive into this but just this isn't Matt's podcast. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, you just think of the poor kids that have been exposed to that stuff. I think of two girls in particular. One girl told me, she said she's been looking at porn every single day for the past five years because she said that's when I found my dad's porn collection and he doesn't know that I know he looks and he doesn't know that I look, but every day since I found his addiction, it has become my own. Now. Imagine an adolescent girl for five years absorbing that violent degrading imagery. How do you transition from that into trusting a man with your body into what healthy sexuality is supposed to look like and what, what your body is supposed to look like, what the bedroom is supposed to look like? How do you heal and transition that when your own family doesn't know about that? Then I know of other people who basically had the opposite reaction found their dad's porn collection and said, look iiii I used to, to look up to my dad and now, now I can't even look at him anymore like I thought he was a better man than that. And my dad is lusting after girls who are two years older than I am. Why my mom's sleeping in the next room then erases internet history. Kisses my mom and goes off to work and thinks we don't know. She said it makes me sick. How much, how much I resent that guy. And so you imagine this stuff now compounding exponentially over the hundreds of millions of young people getting exposed to this stuff. Like, no wonder relationships are imploding after three months. No wonder kids just want to run to some dating app to com modify each other when it comes to dating relationships and none of it is ultimately satisfying us. And so, yeah, it, it's hard to, it's impossible to overestimate the harm that this is doing to young people, old people alike because I mean, I, I've met men who've told me they've been addicted to porn for 40 50 years. I get emails from the wives on a weekly basis of like, yeah, I'm trying to work with them but it's been 20 years and he, I caught him with it again. It's like, wow, like, how do you build a marriage in the absence of trust. I mean, the answer is you don't. It's heartbreaking. Jason. I, I recall you talking about a British researcher, maybe an anthropologist who studied all these different cultures over time and noticed that any culture that persisted in sexual immorality for, like, more than two generations eventually crumpled or something like that. Do you recall? Yeah, I believe his name is JD Unwin Un. Win for someone who wants to look that up. But, yeah, I mean, he studied ancient Greece and Rome and all these seemingly cultures that would never collapse. But once they diverted the sexual energy away from its natural end, which is marriage and the family, they just imploded. And you see like, ok, well, how are we here in America since the 19 sixties? Wow. Things are going, getting pretty messy real fast and that's why I think the family is so much under attack. Not because like, it's just a target of attack. It's, it's under attack because it is the weapon. I mean, you think of like the top gun movie, you know where Tom Cruise? Just that came out Maverick last summer or whatever the whole point of the movie was to attack. One thing and what was the one thing? It was the weapon, it was the weapon of the enemy. And so it became the object of all the bombs and missiles at the end of the movie. And so in the same respect, the family is the cell of resistance to oppression. GK Chesterton said, and, and that's a very, that's a very weapon that's needed to build up a civilization of love. And that's why it's under such tremendous attack. And so we've got to realize the greatest weapon we have our little holy families. That's why there's so much under attack. That's the solution to this cultural mess. And the only thing that's gonna get us out of the disaster that porn and the sexual revolution is driving us into. I think often what we do is we see the extremities of perversion and then point at it and seek to remedy it. But I was just reading this today from Acts chapter two verse 40 where Saint Peter says in his preaching immediately after Pentecost, save yourselves from this wicked generation, we live in a wicked generation. And if we're going to save ourselves from it, we need to acknowledge that the generation in which we live is actually wicked. We also have to take uh the words, you know, don't be polluted by the world or keep yourselves unpolluted by the world. Don't let there be a hint of impurity among you. And I think for too long Christians seeking to cozy up with the world, seeking to prove to the world that it's cool and tolerant has just given way too much ground. I was on an airplane flying back from France the other day and a couple of ladies were in front of me watching that movie, Wedding Crashes. I think Owen Wilson is one of the actors and I haven't seen the movie, but I glanced over a few times and I realized it might be funny. I don't know, I haven't watched it but it's deeply wicked and perverse. And I think as Christians in this kind of day and age, it's just, it's not enough to kind of cut off the flour. Like it's kind of the porn is a problem. We really have to be serious about not ingesting the same entertainment that the world is ingesting. And instead we've got to be ingesting that which is true, good, beautiful. And that's, that's tough. That's tough. I think a lot of people don't want to do that. We, we really, we want to just receive from the world and from the entertainment it produces on Netflix, peacock, et cetera, whatever we can. But especially for those who are in the midst of this struggle that I think all Christians, especially those who are struggling with sexual purity, which is gonna be so vigilant that is challenging. But I think there's so much freedom there if you actually do about what you're saying and we could talk about this forever guys. Um especially responding to this question of like, what's wrong with pornography. I wanna tie that question up there. Um But do you have any resources that you would recommend if someone's hearing this for the first time? And they want to know more about why pornography is damaging, why it's wrong. Yeah. Well, first I wanna pitch over to Matt because I know he's got a book he did in terms of the scientific research on it. And then I can talk about the one that we did together. Yeah. I wrote a book called the porn Myth which is a non-religious response to pro pornography arguments. I thought just like someone can make a case against abortion without appealing to Christian morality or scripture. Even though those things, I think obviously the strongest side, then someone can do that with pornography as well. So this book, the porn myth, there's no quoting of scripture, no referencing to Christ or the teachings of a particular church. It's just, here's the findings like I mentioned earlier, neuros psychology, sociology. So even if people watching right now, they're not religious and they're not interested in religious arguments. Well, they don't need to worry. This book isn't based on that. Um And so that book is on audible paperback and whatever. So that I, I was pretty happy with that book. I thought, I thought it was a, I tried to, I responded to about 27 arguments that people often, you know, like maybe animate porns or maybe masturbation is ok without pornography. All those sort of things that we maybe say to ourselves that we hear from society. Yeah. And, and that, and I teamed up a couple of years ago because so many guys and girls would come up and say, hey, look, I've been trying to break food from porn. I know it's wrong. I get the arguments but I'm good for like a two week and then it's back at it and I'm good for a month and I'm back at it, I'm good for a day and it's back at it. Like, how do you actually find lasting freedom? And so he and I met and I teamed up and created this little book called Forged. And essentially what it is is a 33 day game plan to find freedom where you're really getting to the roots of the issue that we're not just tackling it from a, you know, a neurological perspective or just from a spiritual perspective, just, just pray more Hail Marys and it'll go away. Obviously, prayer is an essential component. I believe the spiritual element is there. But also there's physiology we're dealing with there, psychology, sometimes emotional wounds and trauma. And so we really try to tackle the porn issue from a fully human perspective of emotionally, physically, psychologically, spiritually covering all these bases. And then with every day, it's like a 33 day challenge, you get emailed to you a free video from a different person. And so some are doctors and psychologists, some are more spiritual, you know, leaders in the church and this and that. So every day you're getting it from a different angle. So it's not the same talk and head. And that little short inspirational video is corresponding with that day's content to really get to the roots of the issue and help people that and it's obviously not a money back guarantee, 33 days and your porn is gone for the rest of your life. No, but it's 33 weapons in a sense that you can use in this daily battle because it's not like you, you sign some chastity commitment card and like, oh, now I'm good to go. I'm like this is something you're gonna fight for your whole life. And if you don't have the strategy in the battle, I think you've pretty much already lost before the battle began. So it gives those strategies of how not to lose your peace when you fall, how to start over, how to have accountability, all the different components because Matt and I felt we were hodge podging. People would meet him like, hey, try this filter and use this thing and call that counselor and felt like we were just patching things together. So we thought maybe let's just create one resource that's got it all. And uh and that's why he created the book for. And the idea is that you don't do it alone, you need to do it with another guy. Uh We have a similar one for the women called an uncompromising purity. Uh It's let lust is not just a guy problem that Kelsey Sco wrote. But this is the one specifically designed for guys to do in community where there just one guy, father, son, men's youth group, whatever do that persevere in 33 days. And I think you'll have the strategies you need to win because honestly, defeat is not an option here. I mean, being some 48 or 35 year old porn addicted husband or father, that's not on anybody's radar as the goal. And so this is just a battle, not only that you can win, but that you can't afford to lose. Also, I point out real real quick a ministry specifically for women would be Magdala Ministries dot org started by a friend of mine, Rachel Klei Magdala Ministries don't bog if they're women watching who are struggling with pornography and wanna find like a safe group of other women and, and, and if a woman is struggling because her spouse or partner is looking at porn, there's another one called Bloom for Catholic women. Uh Even if you're not Catholic, you find a lot of helpful stuff there because the women going through this, if their partners are looking at are suffering really a sexual betrayal, trauma, that's often gaslight. I'm just like, oh, you're just a prude or you're getting too worked up about this whole thing. There's a lot worse husbands out and all of her emotions and feelings get completely invalidated. Um And so she needs support through this whole thing as well. Not only the guy so bloom for Catholic women is a helpful one too. So I think that this is so needed. Especially Matt, I saw your interview with Dennis Prager and I think there's a lot of people out there who, you know, by all other measures are really intelligent, but they don't really understand what's going on with pornography, how damaging it is on our culture. So in the time we have left, I want to switch gears over to that second person that I mentioned, people who they know that pornography is wrong, they know that it's damaging. But Jason, like you said, they struggle to break free. And so let's go deeper into that content. If one of them came up to you right now and said, hey, how do I finally break free? What quick advice would you give them, Jason? Well, one is, does anybody else know about this except for me? Because if I'm the first person you're telling, uh obviously you haven't done the most important thing because in order to really strike at the wound uh of pornography, we've gotta, we've gotta address the pride issue of just like nobody can know that I'm not the guy who they think that I am. And so as long as you want to wear that little cloak, uh you're not gonna see a lot of victory. And so you need to have accountability, somebody that you can talk to someone that's a little further along on the road in terms of these battles instead of like, I look yesterday, hey, I did too see any good websites. Like, no, we need somebody who's gonna call us on and sometimes counselor is necessary finding whether it's a sex addiction therapist and really kind of getting down to the roots. There's an, an evangelical therapist named Jay Stringer who's got some really good stuff online about really getting to the core. And, and I like his approach. We just did a podcast with him where he talks about that the the desires, the things that you're looking for online and these unwanted sexual behaviors are often a road map towards your healing. And he, he did a study more close to 4000 people of what their internet searches had to say about them. And they were able to kind of create these templates that if you're looking at this type of porn, odds are you had a really authoritarian father and you have a relationship towards women that's more fantasizing about this because this piece is kind of lacking in your life. And if we can remedy that really get down to those issues, then you're dealing with the roots of the weed instead of forever, like Matt said, just clipping at the leaves of it. And so therapy is often a very underestimated tool and the importance of breaking free because this, this has been going on for years and I've tried this filter and I've tried that thing. Maybe it's time to get down to the root structure beneath it to help find the healing. So good love Jay Stringer. He's actually the next episode in this series on healing, sexual Brokenness. Oh, awesome. Now, what would you say if someone came up to you in addition to what Jason said and said, hey, I can't break for you. How do I finally get rid of this stuff? Yeah. Well, I, I guess I'd want to define what is meant by break free because what is freedom? It's not like this thing that we like this milestone that we pass one day after having read a book or having watched this video and then you have some kind of phenomenological reaction where you feel freedom is now something you're living in. I think I found it helpful to think for freedom is one day rather than a finish line. And so like, what kind of man do I want to be? What kind of things should I be doing? Should I not be doing in order to be the kind of man that I, those are really good questions that I'm asking. You know, when I, if I do, if and when I do fall to rely on God's Mercy, I think incredibly important great book called I Believe in Love. He's got this great line. He says, I'm not telling you, you believe too little or too much rather in your own wretchedness. He says we are far more wretched than we can ever imagine. He says, what I'm telling you is you don't believe enough in the love of God. And so I think whenever we are become face to face with their own wretchedness and Brokenness and selfishness and lust, that's a horrific thing to look at. And it all, it should always be looked at in light of the savior's merciful gates. Chris loves us. He doesn't give up on us even when we want to give up on ourselves. I think honestly having a more gentle approach to ourselves is actually more effective. Like not just that it makes us feel better than being a hard ass to ourselves, although sometimes that can help, but it can be kind of just, it's actually counter productive to call yourself like a worthless sack of crap. He again, it's actually a lot more healthy to be like, what, what happened there? Like, why did I do that? What was happening? What was I looking for? You know, uh What, what um what, what kind of negative emotions was I maybe running from and having that more curious approach. Uh I, I found the same thing that if you have more compassion on yourself instead of just beating yourself up out of shame. Uh You, you make a lot more progress because a lot of times the root of these things is wounds of shame and just identity of just like I am a failure. I am a hypocrite. I'm not a real man. And so I might as well just go back to all that stuff because that's not just what I do, it's who I am. Whereas if you start to see yourself in the light of God's love. Well, maybe I'm not a worthless piece of garbage. I remember one guy he, I read about that who was hooked on porn, going to prostitutes, strip clubs the whole nine yards. And he finally opens up to another Christian guy. And this other guy who was a real upstanding Christian man in the community said to him, well, what you really want to do is look at porn and masturbate, then go ahead and do it. And the guy was like, what like, yeah, if what you really want to do is look at porn, Masur bait, go ahead and do it. And the guy was, he just kind of pounded the desk. He said, no, that's not what I really want. And the guy looked at him and smiled and said, exactly. And for the other guy, it was this watershed moment of like, maybe I am not pure depravity. Maybe there's actually something good in me that craves for something better than the next hit on the next porn website. But it's just been buried under all this shame. And so if you have a little bit of mercy, you make a lot more progress, I think than just trying to white knuckle it to the finish line, let's say with that theme of shame because I think this is so important. I think shame is at the root of staying stuck. Matt. I've heard you talk a lot about this as well, Matt when you were in the midst of this and in the midst of your struggles with pornography, what did that shame feel like? And what did you do in order to break free from that or to deal with that shame? So you could find that freedom that you mentioned. It just feels hopeless. Feels like there's something fundamentally wrong with something fractured at the core of other people don't experience. I'm special in my group. Other people can be free of it. I can't. And that must mean that there is something just irreversibly wrong. And I think what's interesting is we sometimes make agreements with those things, you know, like, yeah, I am. That is true. That is a true fact about me and then we walk around not realizing we've made these agreements with the enemy and these agreements need to be broken. And so I don't know, I've had several really powerful experiences where I've said in the name of Jesus Christ, I renounce, I there is something fundamentally broken. I, I proclaim the truth that I am a beloved son of the father, you know, and, and to be kind of patient with myself during that time and say, ok, like this is completely unacceptable. Of course. And yet, like you were exposed to porn when you were eight, he didn't ask for that. You just stumbled across it. And then you had a, I'm talking to myself here. Then you had a best friend's mom who would buy you porn when you were 12 and 13, like go to BHS stores and buy them and like, if you like, yes, like you're a victim in this like this, this isn't ok. Like there's a reason you're struggling with this, that kind of, that kind of patience. And I know sometimes people are reluctant to talk like that because I like what Jason said a moment ago about being gentle with yourself because we fear that. Well, if I'm gentle, then somehow I'm giving myself a pass, but that's not what we're saying. So I think that really helped as well. And then, um as Jason said earlier, kind of bringing people into that. Some things can only be healed by the antiseptic light of truth. This is one of those things. So bringing it out in the open before people that you can trust. I think one of the things that does as well is you see in their response to you that you're worth being friends with. You know, I think that's one of the lies we believe in when we slip up into serious sin. Be it pornography or something else is like, if people really knew what I was like, they would not stick around but having a good friend that you trust and rely on or multiple people, this proves that like, no, it, people are gonna stick with. People do love you. They are here to help. They're not ashamed of, but they do believe. Yeah, so true. It's beyond healing when someone loves you. Not in spite of your Brokenness, but perhaps even because of it like they're there for you through the thick and thin. And I love that. And I think that that approach makes so much sense. And I, I love the different tone we're taking now to people who again, they understand that it's wrong and they want to break free but they're struggling to do. So I want to go deeper on something I don't think is talked about much in Jay Stringer's awesome book, Jason Unwanted. He says this. He says when you are involved in unwanted sexual behavior, one of the most maddening dimensions of your life becomes your fight with freedom. You long for liberation. But you also experience a strange comfort in the misery and pleasure. Your unwanted behavior provides. How can someone break that attachment and overcome that fear of letting go? Because maybe this thing has just been a crutch for them. Yeah. Well, I think one thing would be helpful is keep in mind what Matt just said a few moments ago about what freedom is, you know, is freedom a finish line or is freedom, the road that you're on and that, you know, once you get your will set in the right direction, yeah, there's gonna be setbacks, but don't think. Ok, well, I had a setback, I guess I'm not free, you know, I, I got wounded on the battlefield. I guess that means I trade my troops. No, there, there's no dishonor and getting wounded on the battlefield. The, the real dishonor is fleeing the battlefield, kind of waving the white flag and leaving the rest of people on the battlefield. And so I think with Jay Stringer, one of the things that's so helpful is that he really kind of really gets down to these core issues of having compassion on yourself. And it, yeah, it seems like a mystery of like, what the heck, when is this thing gonna be away? You know, how am I gonna be done with it? And then you get upset about the fact that you got upset about getting upset that you were upset. It's just this cycle of scrupulosity and shame and it's just like, ok, hit the time out. You know, you are not defined by your weakness. You know, you're more than that. And yeah, you, you had a little setback but you know what your heart's in the right place. You can have victory in this regard. And so don't give up like, let's just keep fighting at this thing because maybe this false notion of freedom is what's holding you back of thinking. Uh You know, maybe you grew up with a lot of scrupulosity, maybe with an overly authoritarian parent, you know, maybe in a home environment where you felt you needed to earn the love of the father. And as long as you kept screwing up, it's just like, man, until I get that straight. A's until I, until I win that state champion being in ship until I do all things, right? The father's never really gonna approve of me. And if we think that, hey, winning his love is impossible, sometimes we just sit down in our shame and be like you, you resign yourself. It's kind of like the movie, The Shawshank Redemption where there's that guy who lived basically most of his whole life and you know, in prison and then he finally was getting released from prison. What's the first thing he did? Like he tried to commit a crime in the prison so he could stay in prison longer because for him, it, it had become like a, a false companion. It's all that he ever knew was that. And so in the same respect, porn or unwanted sexual behavior becomes our false companion that goes with us through some really dark times of life. That time I was laid out for my job and I was lonely and I was struggling with this and that I could always go to that to find a little bit of comfort. It becomes almost a maternal sensuality that it's sexual, but there's a maternal element to it. And that's why porn keeps us as boys. Because if you think about it, when we're conceived in our mothers, we associate the woman's body with comfort and warmth and safety, then you're born into the world. And again, the woman's body, I'm crying. Well, your nurse and your mother holds you at her breast. And again, the body is a source of comfort and warmth and consolation and all these things. And then eventually the boy gets weaned and grows in enough strength to become a source of consolation for the woman. And that's the ascent towards manhood. And, but what porn does is it retards the entire process of masculine development. Where now in your moments of desolation, you're running back to the woman for consolation instead of being a source of consolation for her. And so once you, once we start understanding like, what am I really doing here and why, why is this having the effect that it is? Sometimes you can kind of stop beating yourself up and be like, ok, here's what's going on. I understand my shame a little bit. I understand my cravings. And so I don't need to identify with shame because they say, you know, guilt is that you did something wrong, but shame is that you are wrong because of what you did. It's like that quote I once heard from a priest that God knows your sins, but he calls you by your name. The devil knows your name, but he calls you by your sins. And so just be mindful if, if you're trying to identify yourself by your sins, that's not the voice of God. That's so beautiful. Jason, my goodness gracious. Well, but you know, to that point that you just made at the end there, you know, in revelation chapter 12, verse 10, Satan is called the accuser of our brethren who accused him day and night before the throne of God. Conversely, the Holy Spirit is called the uh parachute, which they tell me means defense a turn. I love that. Uh this idea that the father is on our side, you know, you're not the enemy, there is an enemy and it is not you. You are a beloved son so good. We've touched on this a couple of times, but I just want to put a picture in people's minds. So let's say you get porn out of your life. Let's say you, you learn to master, you know, your desires and you're not falling and on wanted sexual behavior. What does that leave you free to do? Like again, we've touched on this a little bit. But I'm curious, Matt, what would you say? Like, what sort of freedom waits people for people on the other side? Because I feel like sometimes all we hear about is like, just quit porn, quit porn, quit porn, but we're not really selling them. The vision on the other side. Yeah, that's a good point. I tell you the times I feel most masculine is when I am serving my wife, when I, but I feel like I am offering my strength to her and the kids and I'm not just trying to take it from them. There's something so right about that and it's so liberating. It's almost like I'm no longer driving in second gear. I'm in fifth gear and I'm cruising and I'm 11 as I should. So I don't know, that could be part of what you experience as you begin to break free of this stuff, begin to feel like you're living the way that you should now, maybe you weren't, you know, maybe you could quit porn and then just replace the addiction or still waste your life in a mind numbing time killing pursuits. But one thing I like to think about is and, and Jason forgive. You can tell me if I stole this from you, I steal much from you because you have, you say things so well. But when a person battles against pornography, he's actually growing as a, his, his virtues are sort of growing together. He's not just growing in sexual purity, but he's growing in like, like think about what's required of the man who makes the decision to stop looking at porn, not just chastity, it's moral courage, patience and humility. Like the battle itself can be a way that I kind of grow as a man. So that when I find a good degree of freedom from it, it's not like I'm as I was, except my chastity Health bar is up here. It's like, no, like I, I'm actually becoming a more to put Matthew Kelly, a better version of myself in every respect. I I once seen the stats for porn, biggest porn website in the States, how much porn was consumed in one particular year? And it was 4.5 billion hours that people spent streaming pornographic videos in one year. And you do the math on that. It's 500,000 years of human life wasted on one porn website in one single year. And so now now think of that, OK, what could human beings do with 500,000 additional years of human life for the good of humanity? I mean, you, you can't even conceive how much more good could come into the world and the time that was wasted doing that. But just to get really micro instead of macro like that. I remember talking to father Augustino Torres who was giving counsel to a woman on what should I look for in a potential husband? And he said, make sure you find someone who's fat and he said, faithful available in tea and in terms of the faithful, it's obviously not just I want cheating on other people but obviously the, the fidelity of your imagination, but the one I wanna hone on is available, he said a lot of times when guys get hooked on porn, they're just not available. Not in the sense that he's sitting in a basement looking at porn, but when you're having a conversation with him, he's not even all there. I remember talking to a guy and his girlfriend once and as I was talking to the guy, I was thinking like this guy's got to be hooked on porn like he's just like, he's just not here in the con, he's not fully there. And sure enough, within 10 minutes of conversation, he divulged how, how hooked he is. It just keeps you from being fully present as a man, not only to your partner and to God, but to civilization as a whole. Yeah. And I remember one of the lines, Jason, you would say a lot is like the peace and the joy that come from living this pure life. It's worth more than anything that the world has off. And I found that to be so true as well. Matt, I want to go back to your wife. I think your wife is basically a living saint. Most women, she's like most women, uh wouldn't respond to maybe their husband struggling in the ways that you did in your past, uh, in the way that she did. How did she respond and what can spouses listening right now who are going through this do for their spouse? Yeah. Well, I would say like if you're a fella and you're married, you realize that, you know, maybe to state the obvious, but your wife has every right to be angry, I think, uh, you know, I think a lot of wives fear that they're not allowed to show any negative emotion because if I do that, then that's gonna trigger you. And apparently it's all about you anyway. And so I've got to somehow react to this with a complete stoicism, but I think just kind of giving your spouse the freedom to react however they want to react. Um And I've heard Jason say before that rather than just telling your spouse that you might be engaged in these things, you're ashamed about. What if you went to them with a litany of things that you are doing and have been doing in order to be free out of love for them. That's just, that's also just kind of a more masculine approach. Like here's what I'm doing. I'm not just complaining because I fell again. Now, I'm letting you know that I've implemented this software. I'm going to an essay meeting maybe where I've, you know, I, I've, I no longer have a smartphone and these sorts of things and I want you to know that I'm doing this not primarily for you, primarily for my love of God. And next, because this God has commanded me love you. Well, yeah, it's, it's kind of like a Jaco approach. You know, that ex Navy seal guy, business entrepreneur of just extreme ownership. Like I'm not gonna pass the buck on this. I'm not gonna blame distress in my life. I'm not gonna blame you for not being as sexually available as I might have wanted you to be. I'm not, I'm not gonna sit the plane anywhere. I'm the one who clicked on that website. I'm the one who did this. I own it and I'm gonna get myself out of this. I think that is the hope that the wife needs to see because if it's anything other than that, I mean, it's crushing for a wife, uh, to have the husband pass the book and make excuses and say, well, I'm trying, it's like, could you be trying any more or are you just trying any? Could you not even try any less than you are? Yeah. It's such a good point, right? Like, it's so easy to, the easiest thing in the world is to criticize other people. The hardest thing in the world is to own their own stuff. And that's true in this situation. Yeah. And it, and it pays off because like when II I read one book by Jaco where he just talks about that extreme owner ownership principle and he just talks about him and some other troops when they made some faults on a mission, just totally owned it in front of the commanders and just said, look, it was my fault and I know my fault, my fault, my fault. And it's counterintuitive that you think by taking on the fault that the person would look down on you. But the opposite effect actually happens. It's like, ok, now I actually admire that person. I remember we let go of a company once that we were working with when things didn't go as planned, it just seemed like they were making kind of excuses. Whereas what I was looking for for them just like own it. Yep. Drop the ball. Could have done better. Here's what we're gonna do next time. We probably would have kept him. But the very fact that it was just always another reason I, I just never saw that ownership. We decided, hey, we might want to move in a different direction. So from a, an executive business perspective, bosses, look for that of like, wow, that guy stepped in it but he owns ok, I can see that guy moving forward in this business whereas you got this guy. Yeah, he stepped in it but it's everybody else's fault. Somebody shoved me into it. It's like, ok, that guy's not owning it. Let let's move on. And so same thing in a marriage, I think you might fear that if I really own this stuff, my wife is gonna see me as less of a man. I think the opposite is true. When you, when you own your junk, that's when she's gonna see you as most of a man. It takes a lot of humility to do that. I remember a priest telling me once that Augustin said this. He, he said that Augustin said this. I've never been able to find it, but he said that Augustin wrote that lust is the sin of the proud. Lust is the sin of the proud. And so naturally, the antidote to lust is not just chastity or purity but humility. And so I think it's anyone struggling right now, especially don't just develop the virtue of chassis, develop the virtue of humility because of course, that's the foundation of all the virtues, but it will directly counteract this struggle as well. Yeah. And, and it's not like the, the more pure I get, I suppose I'm stronger and stronger and stronger. I think the opposite is kind of true that the more you grow on purity, the more you just realize your weakness that it first I wanna walk with God, then you trip. It's like, ok, I'll crawl with God. Ok? That's not even working. I just need him to pick me up and just carry me. And so it's returning to this spirit like a child like spirituality, not childish in any respect, but a child like of an utter dependency on the father instead of just trying to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, which never works. Yeah, so true. Uh Before we end up the show, Jason, I had one question for you. I think for people who, who have adopted this life, so who have gotten porn out of their life? Who are living this virtue of purity? I think there's this faulty assumption often that if you live purity before marriage, you're guaranteed to have a great marriage. I know I kind of subconsciously fell into this myself. Why is that not the case? And what other virtues are necessary in order to build a great marriage? Yeah, I think we kind of need to avoid kind of a sexual prosperity gospel when it comes the marriage, uh like a health and wealth kind of thing. Like if you just stay faithful to God and you signed your commitment card, then hey, you did what mattered and you're gonna have a fruitful marriage. Ok. Well, that's, that's covering maybe the sexual piece of marriage. But guess what, 99% of your marriage is not on the bedroom. You know, it's not sexual, what's going on with that other 99 piece when I was interviewing uh Jay Stringer recently, he told me that when he's an evangelical and he was going through his seminary, they had to get 40 hours of psychotherapy before they were allowed to graduate from the seminary. 40 hours of psychotherapy. Like I think that should be part of every pre K A program for marriage preparation. Like, imagine what would happen at the divorce rates if we actually put couples through the ringer like that? Like, OK, is there some junk that you're dragging into your marriage? You're expecting marriage is gonna be some kind of car wash. Whether it be financial, emotional, mental, psychological. Like that's real. Get into the nitty gritty. I'd heard of one Protestant marriage prep program where they gauged how successful it was by how many couples they could get to call off their engagement and they would typically get about 50% of the couples to call off their wedding after going through the course. And that is massively successful. And you think, oh no, it's not. It's breaking up all these future marriages. No, it's not. It's preventing all these future divorces is what's going on there. And so I think what we've got to do is make sure we're not treating marriage prep like triage like something you're doing four months before you get married. Now, we got to be doing this in junior high and high school saving marriages before they even begin. Matt. Anything to add to that in the past. So I'm curious if you were to leave everyone with like one challenge that they can do after listening to this in order to break free, what would that challenge be? Yeah. So I agree with everything Jason said and yet to add to it, I would also point out that neither of us is saying that we have to be saints before we're married. And yeah, because I had this idea when I got married, I was like, I, I kind of get the theology of the body and I'm not sleeping around and you know, like I got this and I had no idea how selfish I was like, especially when kids came and demand how selfish you were either Matt, Nobody knew. Not Jason, not me, not my wife. But it was shocking to me. You know, and I've heard Jason say that like marriage often kind of brings to the surface like oil and water, all the imperfections and, but sometimes I'll say to people who are like, I don't know if I'm ready to get married. I'm like, dude, I've been 17 years married. I'm not ready either, but it's a beautiful thing to grow together. Uh grow in virtue, spouse. Uh One thing, what did you say? One thing, one challenge. Yeah. If you, if you want people to do one thing to break free from unwanted sexual behavior after listening to this, what's one thing that you would challenge to? I, well, I just to kind of circle back to what I said earlier. There's a million things you could say, right? But one thing is to stop justifying entertainment. That's evil. Stop it. Don't watch it. And that might mean smashing your computer. It might mean getting a, a dumb phone, they have these smart looking phones might just mean that living a more radical lifestyle looks different, those around you. So might want to get serious and that seriousness might wanna become visible in making these manly kind of decisions. Awesome. Thank you both. Uh Jason, how can people get the forged book and how can they find you both online? Yeah, if you just go to chast dot com, chastity dot com, they can click on the books and the forge book is available there. And I think if I could throw out one challenge, just just be in today. Don't worry about tomorrow, don't worry about it. I gotta be absent for the next eight years of my life or what about the past? What are the devils so obsessed with getting you either in the past or the future? Because only in the present moment is sanctity to be found. And so all you gotta worry about is today just between now and time to go to bed, just keep your focus there. Don't lose your peace and then I'll kick it over to Matt in terms of how people can get a hold of him. Yeah, I have a podcast called Pints with a Quus. It's on youtube. You could type that in and find it. We have long form discussions. Folks might find it helpful. So good. Thank you both for your time. Honored to, to have you on the show. Everything you said is so, so helpful. We'll throw all the links in the show notes and uh yeah, just honored by both of you have learned so much from you over the years. So keep up with the great work, so much good stuff packed into that interview. Two final thoughts or challenges. One, I'd invite you to actually listen again. If you can make the time. There's so much to digest a lot to learn from that interview. Next, it's a pick up Matt and Jason's book Forged. The subtitle is 33 Days toward Freedom. Just click on the link in the show notes to get that very affordable. And by the way, at this recording, the book is so popular that it's actually on back order. And so if you find that that's the case when you click that link, just set a reminder on your phone to check back in like 2 to 3 weeks. So you can pick up the book. So obviously, in this podcast series, we're talking a lot about sexual Brokenness and how to heal it so often though at the root of sexual compulsion or Brokenness is trauma. But before you can heal it, you have to understand it. And our free mini core trauma titled Why You Feel Broken consists of just five short videos by a trauma therapist with 17 years of experience that answers the questions. What is trauma, what impact does it have on your body? How does it affect your emotions. How does it affect your mind and how does it impact your relationships again? Once you understand what trauma is and how it's affecting you today, then you can begin to heal it and build the life that you long for. If you want to get that free. Course, it's really easy. Just go to restored ministry dot com. Restored ministry ministry, singular dot com slash broken restored ministry dot com slash broken. Sign up for free and then you can begin watching the mini course again. That's restored ministry dot com slash broken. Or just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of CS Lewis who said you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#100: How Restored Helps Children of Divorce and Broken Families

What’s brought the most pain and problems into your life? If your answer (or a top answer) is your parents’ divorce or the breakdown of your family, this podcast is for you.

In this episode, we talk about the specific pain and problems your parents’ divorce or family breakdown bring into your life. We also highlight resources to help you heal and build virtue, so you can feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

Take podcast survey (5-10 min)

Schedule donor pitch with Joey

Share how Restored has helped you

Donate now

Content

• View podcast episodes

• Buy the book: It’s Not Your Fault

• Book a talk or workshop

• Get FREE Courses

• Get Mini Course: Why You Feel Broken

• Share your story

• Submit your questions for the show

• Take the assessment: My Broken Family 

Coaching: Find a coach

Community: Join Restored’s FREE community

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

I have a question for you. What has brought the most pain and problems into your life? And if your answer or one of your top answers is your parents' divorce or the breakdown of your family. This podcast is for you. In this episode, we talk about how the trauma of your parents' divorce or your family's breakdown impacts you. We also highlight some resources to help you heal and grow from it so you can feel whole again and break that cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. Some new stuff that we haven't really shared on the podcast before. So keep listening. Welcome to the restored podcast helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panelli. This is episode 100. At this milestone of episode 100. We wanted to explain again how restored and this podcast can help you if you come from a divorce or broken family where you know someone who does. But the best place to start really is with the problem that we solve in order to show you how it can help you. Not long ago, a woman reached out to me that I call Mary and she said that when she was a little girl, she would watch her parents fight all the time. Their marriage was a mess and they really needed help, but they never got the help that they needed. And so the dysfunction just continued on for years. Fast forward to when Mary was in high school, her mom came to her and she said I want to divorce your dad. Mary didn't really know what to say to that. So she told her I just want the fighting to stop her mom went through with the divorce. And what honestly seemed like a solution to a really bad messy situation just made things worse for Mary. It just was one trauma on top of another, one wound on top of another. Now up to this point, Mary didn't really act out, she held her pain inside, but that all changed. When she went to college. She got into the party scene. She started drinking heavily that led to dating the wrong guy. She ended up marrying one of those guys who was a drug addict and an alcoholic and their marriage was obviously a mess as well. Now before long they get pregnant and because Mary was terrified that her baby would grow up in that hell and that dysfunction, she got an abortion that obviously brought a lot more pain into her life. And following that, she divorced her husband repeating the cycle started by her parents, which is super common. Some studies said that people like us who come from divorced families are 2 to 3 times more likely to get divorced than people from intact families, which is already high. And once the dust settled from, from her divorce, she fell into a deep depression and she still deals with some emotional issues to this day. Now, whenever I think of Mary, whenever I tell her story, I cannot help but think what if, what if someone was there for her? What if someone could have gotten her professional help? What if someone could have just showed her how to deal with her pain in healthy ways instead of unhealthy ways? What if someone could have mentored her and building healthy relationships and finding a spouse? I'm super convinced that her life would not turn into the tragedy it became if she had that kind of help. And I know she would agree with me as well. Now, Mary's story is pretty dramatic, but it really illustrates the type of person that we're trying to help. And I know that this is a really heavy topic, but this topic deserves to be talked about because this is such a huge problem. And one of the biggest misconceptions about this problem of broken families and divorce and all that is how big it is according to the US. Census each year, over 1 million American Children endure their parents divorce 1 million. It's hard to even wrap your head around that number and they define child as anyone 17 and younger. And that means that right now there are tens of millions of young people right now again, from broken families who are not getting the help that they need and that they frankly deserve. Like Mary. I also come from a broken family. I'll never forget the day that my mom broke the news that she and my dad were getting divorce. It just absolutely shattered my world. It came completely out of the blue and it brought so much pain and so many problems into my life. But that day I remember just being unable as an 11 year old boy to handle that news, to cope with that news. And so I just hid in the closet and I cried and sitting in that closet. I couldn't have put it in towards then, but I felt abandoned. I felt unwanted. I felt like I just wasn't good enough. And in the days and months and even years that followed, I dealt with all sorts of pain and problems. I dealt with emotional problems, like anxiety, depression, loneliness, a lot of anger for me. As a boy, I dealt with relationship issues. If someone would have told me the ways in which my parents divorced, the breakdown of my family would impact my future friendships dating relationships, even my own marriage, I probably wouldn't have believed them. I was terrified of love, terrified of marriage, terrified of relationships because I didn't want mine to end the way that my parents' marriage had. And I felt so lost and clueless when it came to building lasting love. And then finally I fell into bad habits around the time when my parents split, a buddy of mine introduced me to pornography. And so I got hooked on that stuff. And through all of that, I just, you know, before long, I knew that I was so unhappy, I felt so unhappy, so empty, so broken. And I knew that I wanted to be happy. Even as a boy, I knew I wanted to be happy and I knew to be happy I needed to heal. And so I looked around for some help and I was shocked to find that there was pretty much nothing, nothing practical for a young person like me who came from a broken family who wanted help with that in particular. And the reason I was shocked because I looked around and I saw friends of mine who were going through their parents divorce and really struggling often in serious ways. I saw how my siblings were struggling. And over the years I started reading the research and just understanding that this is a huge problem. But for some reason, nobody is really talking about it because divorce is just seen as normal. And as a result, these young people, my friends, my siblings myself, we not getting the help that we deserve since resources just don't exist for us. And so after doing business school, scaling a business in the business world, getting my MB A doing all that stuff, I wanted to take those skills and build resources for that little me for that Mary that I told you about a little earlier. But before we get into the solution to the resources that we offer, I want to stay with the problem and go deeper into it. I want to take a look at the research. What does the research have to say about this problem? And the real question is how does divorce affect the Children? And by extension, how do really dysfunctional families affect the Children? Know the research shows that Children of divorce are more likely to have social problems, behavioral problems, they're more likely to struggle in their relationship with their parents, struggle in romantic relationships, more likely to get divorced, more likely to struggle with depression or violence. They're at higher risk for suicidal attempts, more health problems, less success in school, more emotional problems and lower self esteem. And one of the sources for those findings was a meta analysis by Dr Paul Amato from Penn State University is one of the foremost authorities on this topic. And he looked at 67 different studies that have been conducted on Children of divorce and he summarized those findings in his meta analysis which was published in the journal of family psychology. Another researcher who spent a lot of time studying Children of divorce is Dr Judy. Well, if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you've probably heard me talk about her. She did a 25 year long study on Children of divorced, the longest study that we have to date on this topic. And she wrote about all of this in her book, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce. The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce. She studied 100 and 31 young people from 60 families. And one important detail about her research is that she only chose Children who didn't have any emotional or developmental problems prior to the divorce. And then she observed the effect that the the divorce had on them and compared them to their peers who came from intact families. And by the way, going into this research, Dr Judith expected the effects of their parents' divorce to be minimal and temporary. So, you know, they would be minor if any at all and they would be short lived if they were there. And after years of researching this, she said that she said our findings challenge the myth that divorce is a transient crisis. And then as soon as parents reestablish their lives, the Children will recover fully. That doesn't happen in her research. She found that Children of divorce were less likely to get married, they were more likely to get divorced. They were less likely to have Children. They were much more likely to heavily use drugs and alcohol. During high school, they were less likely to finish high school, less likely to go to college, more likely to drop out and far less likely to receive financial support from their parents. And the men interestingly were far less likely to enter an intimate relationship. And Doctor Judith said this. She said parents like to believe that if they are unhappy in their marriage, the Children also will be unhappy. Conversely, if divorce is better for them, it will be better for the Children. But things don't work that way. Children frequently do not share their parents unhappiness with a problematic marriage while a divorce brings pain into their lives that until now has gone unrecognized. She goes on to say that we are allowing the Children to bear the psychological, economic and moral brunt of divorce. Two main takeaways from her research. The first is that the full effects from your parents', divorce aren't actually experienced until adulthood. She called that the sleeper effect. That doesn't mean you're not affected before then, but it just means that the the full effects come out around college age and beyond. And the area of our lives is most impacted by our parents, divorce by the break 10 of our family is our own relationships, especially our romantic relationships in our marriage. And so now that I've made you all clinically depressed. I just want you to know there is good news we're going to get into that. There's resources you can use to heal, to overcome a lot of these negative effects. And so we're going to get into all that. But before we talk about the solution, we have to talk about the problem. And that's why we wanted to go into a lot of the research about this topic. But please, again, there is hope I know this is a heavy topic but it deserves to be talked about because these young people who are struggling, they deserve our help. And speaking of young people who come from a broken family, if you are a young person who does come from a broken family or maybe not so a young person who comes from a broken family, I wanted to say a few things to you first. I'm so sorry for what you've been through. I get it. I know how painful it can be. I'm so sorry for what you've been through, what you've been through, losing your parents, losing one or both of your parents, your parents splitting, losing your home, whatever you've been through, it's such an injustice to you regardless of the reason. Maybe it was justified. Maybe it wasn't, it's such an injustice to you because every child deserves a mom and a dad who love each other and who stick together and provide stability for you. And that was taken from you. And so I'm so sorry for you. I want you to know too that it's not your fault, it's not your fault. Like we feel responsible, don't we? I, I know I felt that way like there's something I could have done to prevent that from happening. But just remember you didn't cause it, you couldn't have prevented it. And there's certainly nothing you personally on your own can do to fix it. It's not your responsibility. Your parents got themselves into the situation. They are the ones who need to fix it. And what I often say to young people that I mentor is that the problems that led to your parents', separation and divorce were likely there long before you were. So it's not your fault. I want you to know too that you're not doomed to repeat your parents' mistakes. You're not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can write your own sword. You can have a beautiful marriage, you can have a beautiful family. You can, you know, live a life that's totally different than your parents. And I'm sure they want that for you as well. So remember, you can write your own story and finally, you're not alone. That's such a struggle for people like us. We feel so alone because this topic is never talked about. And so it's, it's a real struggle, but I just want you to know you are not alone like I said before, there are millions of people like us who are struggling with the same things. And so what we want to do at rest sort is not only provide resources for you, but hopefully connect you with other people. So you can realize, wow, I thought I was the only one and realize that you're not. So again, we'll mention resources to help you feel less alone and to navigate those pain and problems and even to, to find healing. And if you're listening and you're not from a broken family, um I just invite you to think about people, you know, who are like, you likely know someone who, who is and I'm guessing that's why you're listening to this podcast. But just think about that, like, who do you know who comes from a broken family and how have you seen them struggle because of it? And it's not always apparent on the surface because often people like us get really good at presenting a good exterior, but interiorly, we're really struggling and we don't know what to do with it. We feel stuck, we feel broken, we, you know, are struggling with all sorts of pain and problems. And so just, you know, give them some thought and I'm so glad you're here and we're going to give you some tools that you can use to help them. So all of that, you know, my own story, seeing my siblings struggle, understanding like there's so many people out there reading the research led me to start this podcast and the ministry behind it called Restore Word. And so what we do is we help teenagers and young adults from divorced or broken families to heal and build virtue so they can feel whole again and break that cycle in their own lives. And our ultimate vision is to not only break the cycle but really reverse it by helping young people again, to heal the trauma that they've been through and to build virtue so that they can build healthy relationships, strong marriages and good families. And if they don't heal and they don't build virtue, they're statistically much more likely to get divorced themselves and to repeat that cycle for generations. And what we've seen is that again, if you carry around untreated trauma, trauma that hasn't been healed and you're living a life of vice of sin, of bad habits, then you're going to build really unhealthy relationships to be frank, you're going to build really weak relationships which will lead to broken marriages, which will lead to weak families. And I believe that's why we're in the mess we are in our culture today. But on the flip side, if you can heal the trauma you've endured, if you can build virtue and get that, you know, those bad habits out of your life, you're going to go on and build those healthy relationships, a strong marriage and good families, which I'm convinced will transform our culture. And so that's our vision. We want to help these young people who come from broken families. But how do we do that? And like I mentioned, we want to build or connect you with resources that help you heal and build virtue, which those resources fall into one of three categories, content, coaching and community. So content, I'll mention our resources there. We have this podcast, of course, it's the top podcast for Children of divorce. And if you've been listening, you know that on it, we feature expert interviews and stories that offer really practical advice on how to navigate the pain and the problems from your parents, divorce or your broken family, how to heal from that trauma, how to build the virtue so you can feel whole again and break that cycle. In addition to the podcast, we have books, we have one book right now. We're working on our second one right now. The first book I wrote is called It's Not Your Fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. And in that book, we just feature 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by teens and young adults who come from divorce or broken families. Our future book is research based. I'll kind of tease it there and in the future, I'll tell you much more about that book will be coming out. Hopefully by the end of this year. Um But really, really excited about that. Well, and then we also offer speaking engagements. So typically 45 minute keynote or breakout sessions, uh the three talks that we have right now will likely be adding more in the future is what I wish someone told me when my parents divorced and that talk, I just go through my story, share my story. I talk about kind of what you can do to navigate the pain and the problems. How do you cope in healthy ways instead of unhealthy ways? How do you find healing? What are some practical things you can do and how do you begin building healthy relationships? The next one is uh relationship talk and that's seven tips to build a healthy relationship and divorce proof marriage. So, in that talk, we look at a lot of psychological research and what does it take to build a divorce proof marriage, a really healthy thriving marriage. Uh What about, you know, really beautiful couples who've done it? What can they teach us? It's really a road map on how to build a healthy relationship and divorce proof marriage. And then finally a talk for parents or anyone who loves or leads young people who come from broken families. And that's titled 10 Tips to help someone whose parents are separated or divorced. We've gotten a lot of good feedback on that one. That's one of our newest talks. And so that's those are speaking engagements. We'd love to work with you if you, you know, are in a position to host us in a school church, maybe a retreat or some sort of an event like a conference. We'd love to work with you. And uh we'll mention all at the end about how you can get in touch with us to book one of those. Recently, we released video courses. So we have two video courses at the moment that are free. Um And the first one is broken to whole tactics to heal from your parents', divorce or broken marriage. And that's actually taught by a trauma therapist who's been treating trauma for 17 years. She knows a lot about trauma, a lot about what it takes to heal it. And if you're not ready for that full course, we have kind of a mini version of it called why you feel broken. And so we'll tell you again how to get all of that. The second course though is real, help a guide to confidently help someone from a divorce or broken family. And that's taught by me. We're just taking everything we've learned through my experience, the experience of people. I've known closely the young people, hundreds of young people that we've spoken to and mentored. Um All of you who listen to this show, who've reached out, we've taken all those learnings and we've given a guide to people who are in our lives who don't come from a broken family and how they can help people like us. We also do workshops that's titled How To Heal From The Trauma of your broken family. Tools and tactics to feel whole again and thrive. And my team and I offer daylong workshops which includes myself, a trauma therapist and other speakers. And we give talks, we bring you through exercises and we're just there to talk with everyone in the audience, one on one. And then in addition to all that, we also have the ability for you to share your story. We have a short form on our website sites that guides you in telling a short version of your story. You can share what you've been through what's helped you to heal and navigate the pain and problems. And then we'll actually turn that into an anonymous blog article uh to help other people. We also have uh ask restored. It's a feature on this show where you can submit questions and then my guests or I will answer those questions on this show. And then finally, we have an assessment. It's a new assessment that will help you just name and diagnose your Brokenness. You can heal it at its roots and not just treat the symptoms and build the life and relationships that you want. And so that's content. Now, we have coaching as well. We're building referral networks of coaches that we trust that we vet that we recommend. And there's a few different categories there. Uh counselors, obviously, therapists that we trust vet and recommend uh mentors. People maybe don't have the formal training and counseling, but they have a lot of advice, a lot of wisdom just from their life experience, spiritual directors. And we also want to start a program called The School of Love. One of the clear trends that we've seen from the 90 plus interviews and the hundreds of young people that we've spoken to, if not more, is that something that's really, really healing is actually just spending time with good marriages and families. I found that incredibly helpful as well. There are two families, two couples that I just looked up to a ton who really taught me, you know, that it was not only possible to build a beautiful marriage that gave me a lot of hope because I thought it wasn't, but also some tactics on how to do it. I saw how they would interact, how they would speak to each other. And so uh that school of love is what we want to do with. It is basically pair up good marriages and families with young people who come from broken families and they would spend maybe a couple of days a month together, doing chores around the house, sharing a meal together, a bonfire or whatever, just spending time together can be incredibly helpful. So with all that, whenever it comes to finding a mentor or a coach or a counselor, uh the challenge is always, uh what do you look? How do you find a good one? How do you know that the one you're choosing is the right one for you? And so we're working to solve that for you by building this referral network of coaches that we trust that we vet that we recommend. And so it's a work in progress at the moment. Um But it's something that we really want to build down, we can see that being super, super valuable. So that's coaching and then finally, community so friendship, I'm sure you've known this in your own life is incredibly healing. It can help you grow, it can help you become the best version of yourself because you become like your friends. And so the people you surround yourself with is really, really important. And so right now, we have a community that's online, that's on whatsapp at the moment. And it allows young people who come from broken families to really just speak openly about the pain and the problems that they're dealing with uh to find resources or ideas for how to solve those problems and ultimately know that they're not alone and also be challenged to grow because we don't want to just stay where we are or brood on, you know, this, these difficult things we've been through in our life, we want to close that chapter and move on. And eventually we want to take those groups offline too. And set up in person groups as well. And so that just scratches the surface of our resources of content coaching and community. We have more that we want to do in the future as well. But we firmly believe that each of those things, content coaching and community can be truly life changing. They can be solutions to the trauma of divorce and broken families. I know they have been for me, each of those things has helped me. A tonn helped me to grow, help me to heal, help me to build virtue um and become a better man. So I want you to imagine Mary, the woman whose story I shared at the beginning, imagine she had all of that. Imagine she had all of that. I'm so convinced that her life would have been totally different. She could have avoided a ton of pain and problems if she had resources like this. And the great news is that all of that is working. I wanted to share some stories uh because I don't do that a lot in this podcast and you guys really deserve to know that this is working and we're not offering like a silver bullet here, something that's going to fix all of your pain and problems and immediately heal you. That's not gonna happen if someone tells you that they have that be wary. But our resources are really helping people and we've barely marketed restored. But we've already heard that countless people have been helped. And so one day I got on the phone with a woman who I'm going to keep her confidential. But, uh, she said that when her parents divorced at 10 years old, it was really impactful for her. She was, and now she's 50. And so she's been dealing with the pain and the problems, uh, from her parents' divorce for 40 years, she's done 30 years of counseling. Uh, the counselors didn't really understand the problems she was going through couldn't really help her because they didn't really, again understand the problem. They thought divorce was normal. It wasn't a big deal. But hearing that she's been through 30 years of counseling, you might think, well, maybe she's kind of a crazy woman. That's not the case at all. She's a wonderful woman. She's been happily married, she has kids. Um, she, you know, has had a lot of financial success, had a successful career, all of that and you would not be able to tell from the outside looking in, but inside, she struggled a lot. And so when she found this podcast, she said it was an answer to her prayers. She said that the podcast alone has been more effective in helping her heal than 30 years of counseling. And if that wasn't enough, the next part she shared with me really brought me to tears. She said that one of her particular struggles sometimes is suicidal thoughts and tendencies. And so Now, when she starts to go down that dark path, she'll put on this podcast, she'll listen to the interviews and she said it immediately helps. So she told me, she said, Joey, this podcast is a ministry has literally saved my life. And another thing too I wanted to share is we've been very effective on this podcast at getting people to counseling. One woman said this. She said, I know this, I say this all the time, but that last interview was really good. I shared it today. And two hours later, a lady commented that she listened to the podcast and finally, after 20 years since her parents divorce just made an appointment for counseling. Bam. That's awesome. There's some other reviews and testimonials. I want to go through some of them. One young man said this. He shared this with me. He said, I absolutely love the podcast. It seriously feels like a life hack listening to it. It helps so much. What you're doing here is very important and meaningful. I haven't seen any other attempts to support people who suffer from their parents divorces and even if there are other attempts out there, yours is likely far superior. I'm not particularly religious though, that doesn't mean I'm not open minded. It's more of a habit developed from years of being angry at whatever divine being is out there. This podcast and everything you're doing is extremely helpful to anyone religious or not who is struggling with their broken family. I hope you make 1000 more episodes on your podcast because that's what really made me realize that all the weird stuff I've been through isn't abnormal for someone in our position, which is beyond healing. Keep doing what you're doing. You're really making a significant positive impact on people's lives. A young woman who listens said this. She said this podcast has seriously blessed me. Every episode leaves me feeling so seen so known and so loved. It's really nice to be reminded that I'm not alone and to have validated my experience with my parents divorce. I love that. Each episode leaves me feeling encouraged, hopeful and inspired. I feel so so supported to this podcast. I'm continually learning growing and even healing through each and every episode I listen to. I've even discovered lots of additional resources to support me through just giving these episodes a listen. It's so helpful. I can't recommend this podcast enough. Truly, I'm 13 episodes in and I've been blessed by every minute spent listening and I look forward to slowly but surely listening to all the rest of them. Another woman said this. She said finally a podcast that helps me understand why my parents divorced when I was five affected me so much. Joey's guests are articulate and every episode helps me heal. I normally avoid religious content. But this show is so focused on felt experience that it doesn't come across as religious at all. Major props for that. Another listener said, must listen, I'm not religious. So some ideas discussed here are new to me yet have gotten so much out of this podcast. I breathe easier. Listening to Joey discuss a lot of the common feelings, adult Children of divorce experience. Another listener said that this podcast is extremely helpful and validating and I give them so much credit for chat challenging the culture's narrative that divorce isn't a big deal or that the onus is on the Children involved to be resilient. Thank you to the guests who have shared their vulnerable stories. I'm over 40 years old and still deal with the effects of my parents breaking our family. The effects of divorce will last a lifetime for the Children involved. And this podcast is a wonderful resource for them to not feel alone and to foster healing and hope. Thank you. So, those testimonials of which there's a lot more are all related to the podcast. But just to add two more again, of many about our other resources. So after a speaking engagement, I did for 100 and 75 young people in Denver, we got this feedback from the person who hired us to speak. She said I went to a friend's house this weekend for a girls game night, the girl I sat next to just got married within the last seven months. She said she watched her marriage talk three times because she found it so helpful about my book. It's not your fault. Uh Alison wrote this on Amazon. She said I bought your book for someone very close to me who is going through their parents divorce as a young adult. It really, really helped him and was a major turning point in his healing journey. Highly recommend. I'm so glad this is a resource and I don't share all of that to boast though. I am really proud of my team and what we've been able to accomplish and how we've been able to help you guys. But really just to show you that these resources work, people are finding them helpful. Now, if you're new to the show, you might be wondering a little bit about me, like who are you? You know, I shared a little bit of my source. So you know that, but what gives me the credentials or the ability to stand up here and talk in front of you guys? Um Because the truth is I'm not a psychologist. I don't have my phd and so on this podcast and overall, in this nonprofit, this ministry, I really take the posture of a curator and a guinea pig. So a curator, I want to give you access to people. You maybe normally wouldn't have access to and then ask the right questions to build resources with them. Uh So you can get the answers that you deserve to help you heal and grow and when I say guinea pig, what I mean is I want you to learn from me from my story from the mistakes I've made the things that I have also worked for me um as an older brother. So again, I want to be able to help you along the path as well, just based on my experience. But I'm not a traditional expert or guru who's figured it all out, who doesn't struggle at all? No, that's not the case at all. But again, I want to be a curator kind of facilitate the conversations and be a guinea pig. So you guys can learn uh from my experience. But a little bit more about what I do bring to the table. In addition to that for almost 20 years, I've wrestled with the pain and the problems from my parents' divorce and I've sought solutions to the problems. I've done over 10 years of spiritual direction. I've done seven plus years of counseling. In addition to hosting this podcast, I've spoken across the US and abroad in Europe and Central America. And uh with the launch of that first book I mentioned, it's not your fault. I became an author. I've spoken mostly in the Catholic world, which I, I love doing, but I love to break out of that as well. I've spoken at Franciscan University of Steubenville Ave Maria University, the Archdiocese of Denver, the Archdiocese of San Francisco, the Diocese of San Diego. Focus the Fellowship of Catholic university students and so much more. Um I've also been a guest on Relevant radio's the Drew Mariani show. It's a really popular radio show that reaches millions of people. Uh Ewtns women made new and Jason Everetts Less is boring podcast. I mentioned before that I got my MB A and I've scaled the business and neck deep in the business world. And so I want to again, use those skills to build or point you to resources that will help you to heal and grow. And most importantly, I'm a husband and a father. Um I'm trying to live this stuff out every day again. I don't do that perfectly. I mess up, but I'm trying, I'm a practitioner again, I'm not a guru who's figured it all out, who's just pointing you along the way. But I am a practitioner, someone who's trying to live this stuff out. And for some of you, I am a few steps ahead. And so I want to help you wherever I can as well. But with that, I want to hit on some common questions that come up around this podcast around restored before we close out the show. The first one is, is this show, is this ministry only for True of Divorce. No, it's not. Your parents don't need to be divorced for you to benefit from our resources from what we're offering if they're separated perhaps, or their marriage may be just really broken. And your family was really dysfunctional growing up or even now. Uh this podcast in this ministry is totally for you. The experiences and the negative effects from those experiences are very similar can be very similar as if your parents were divorced. We also serve people like I mentioned who love or lead someone who comes from a divorce for broken families such as parents, grandparents, siblings, significant, others like a spouse, fiance, boyfriend, girlfriend, relatives, cousins, aunts, uncles, et cetera, friends, uh coaches, you know, teachers, pastors, youth ministers, and missionaries, anyone who leads people who come from broken families. Another question that comes up is, is this only for teenagers and young adults? Now, I will say we do primarily serve teenagers and young adults. Anyone who's like 13 to 30 or 35 or so. Uh But like I said before, if you find our content helpful, this is for you like no matter your age, you're more than welcome here. If you find this content helpful. Uh The reason we picked that age group is just because I felt called to them. I felt equipped to serve them. I honestly thought that our resources would be too basic to help someone above or beyond that age group. But I've actually was totally wrong about that. We've heard quite a few of you who have given us feedback that you know, you're older outside of that age range. But you've found, you know, our content, our our resources really, really helpful like I shared before. Uh And then the final question that comes up or misconception is that, are you trying to turn Children against their parents? Absolutely not. This is a big misconception about this podcast and about restored because we, you know, talk about these tough topics in a very blunt way. Uh People think that maybe we're trying to drive a wedge between parents and their Children. That is not true. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, there was a study of high school students where they found that uh the high school students who came from divorced families or parents who were divorced, they were more likely to struggle with depression, anxiety and loneliness. However, they found that those students who came from divorced families who had a good relationship with one or both parents were less likely to struggle with depression, anxiety and loneliness. And so parents, you play a key role in helping your Children to heal, to help mitigate those negative effects. And so since parents play such a key role in helping the people that we're trying to serve to heal, why in the world would we want to turn Children against their parents? The opposite is actually true. We want to help Children and parents to heal their relationship, which is sometimes a long road. It takes a while, but we want to help heal that relationship. And so parents, any parents listening, right. Now, please know that our content, our resources um, aren't here to condemn you in any way. We're not judging you. We're not tearing you down. Uh, I don't know your situation. I know you've dirt a lot and I'm so sorry for any of the pain that you've been through. I can't imagine what you've been through. And so we're not here to minimize your pain. Um We're really just intent on our only intention truly is to help your sons, your daughters to heal and to grow. But the first step is truly acknowledging the pain and the trauma that they've been through. I mean, imagine in the medical world, right, if you have cancer before you can heal the cancer, you first have to know that you have cancer and then you have to know uh what type of cancer it is before you can treat it and heal it and hopefully overcome it. And so that's what we want to do on the emotional side in this podcast and our resources. And so in the process, we're going to speak some uncomfortable truths. So please be prepared for that if you're a new listener that's not done on a spite or anger, but really again, a desire to help your Children because we both want the same thing. We want your Children to be healthy, to be whole, to thrive in life and have a great relationship with you. And so with that, if this podcast has helped any of you listening and you want to help us back. Uh There's three things that you can do. The first is just make use of our resources. You can view our resources, uh the link I'm about to share and then just pick one and start with one. You know, maybe you've been listening to the podcast for a while and you want to check out the book, go ahead and check out the book or maybe you want to try some of our free video courses. Go ahead and do that. So just view our resources. Pick one and start with that. You can go to the show notes at restored ministry dot com slash 100 again restored ministry ministry singular dot com slash 100. You just click on the link in the description, you'll get a list of our resources, you can pick the one that you want to start with. The second thing is we just launched our restored podcast survey uh because we want your advice on the topics, the guests and even the future style of this show. And so it takes 5, 10 minutes uh to do, but it really is helpful because it allows us to understand who you are, what you're struggling with, what you want, help with and what you want those podcasts to become. We want to serve you better. And the only way we can do that is if you tell us how we can serve you better. And so you'll be guided through that survey and we'd love to hear from you again, you can have a hand in forming the future of this show. And if you found it helpful, that's one way that you could help us back. And so you can go to restored ministry dot com slash survey. Again, restored ministry dot com slash survey. Just click on the link in the description. And finally, if you're interested in helping us reach even more young people from broken families by funding this podcast or this ministry. I'd love to actually meet with you personally on a video or audio call. Um I can share more stories. I can share our goals, future projects that we have. And so if you want to just go to restored ministry dot com slash donate, you will see a link on that page to schedule a call with me. Uh so restored ministry dot com slash donate. And uh some of the questions that come up around that is our donations tax deductible. They are, we are a 501 c three tax exempt organization. Um People are also wanting to know like what type of support are you're looking for? We have two types of supporters. So we have people who invest um monthly in us. They, you know, are, are giving monthly donations. They range anywhere from, you know, 25 to 50 to $100 to $200 to 300 to even more. We have some people who are generously supporting us. Um But we want to grow, we want go further and help more people. And so, but those are monthly supporters. Um We have people who invest on a special basis or with special gifts, usually that's once a year, but it might be some other uh cadence as well. And so, uh that's, we'd love to have you along. We'd love to have you as, as partners, as investors in this. Uh And the return on this, obviously, we're a nonprofit, but the return on the investment is really impacting the lives of young people, helping them heal, helping us build more resources to reach more young people and really get these resources into their hands. And so I'd love to speak with you personally. If you want to help us reach thousands more young people from broken families again, you can go to restored ministry dot com slash donate or just click on the link in the description wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, please share this podcast with them. They truly deserve to know about these resources and to know that they're not alone. And always remember, we're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And remember the words of CS Lewis, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#099: Healing Sexual Brokenness: The Cure to Unwanted Sexual Behavior | Dr. Bob Schuchts, PhD

Millions of people right now are struggling with sexual compulsion and addiction. It’s a massive problem that doesn’t get the attention or resources it deserves.

Thankfully, in this episode, psychologist Dr. Bob Schuchts offers steps and a resource to heal your sexual brokenness. We also discuss:

• A story of profound healing and transformation

• Dr. Bob’s own past struggles in this area

• How sexual brokenness is often passed down in families through generations

Buy Dr. Bob’s Book: Be Restored

Get the FREE Mini-Course: Why You Feel Broken

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Dr. Bob Schuchts

  • John Pail II Healing Center

  • Restore the Glory Podcast

• Sex Addicts Anonymous (SAA)

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

10 Tips to Help Someone Whose Parents are Separating or Divorcing

7 minute read

A friend recently texted me some sad news: her aunt and uncle are divorcing. Naturally, she is worried about their five children – her cousins. She asked: What can I do to help them? This is my reply, as a child of divorce who has listened to people like me and read the research for years.

1. Don’t Sugarcoat

To console us, well intentioned people may say, “Your family isn’t ending, it is just changing” or “Now you get two homes and twice as many gifts!” The truth is saying things like that is actually harmful.

Why? Because divorce hurts us – regardless of our age and the reason for it. When people make light of it, we feel like we shouldn’t feel so bad. In fact, we may think something is wrong with us for feeling this way. Further, we tend not to trust people who sugarcoat because it’s clear they do not understand how painful it is to watch your parents’ marriage fall apart.

Instead of sugarcoating, call divorce what it is: A tragedy. A really hard thing to endure. An injustice for the children, even in extreme cases where it is necessary. Because every child deserves a healthy family and two parents that choose to love each other and stay together.

2. Listen to How They Feel

Sadly, we often aren’t asked how we feel about it all. The focus is usually on the parents, not us. As a result, we bottle things up inside. Even if we’re in pain, we don’t talk about it. And since we don’t, people assume we’re fine.

So, ask them how they feel about it. Give them the chance to express their emotions. If they struggle to put them into words, help them. Research shows that the more specifically they can describe their feelings, the better it is for them. If they don't speak about how they feel, it may come out in anger or other unhealthy ways of coping.

And naturally, really listen. Don’t listen to respond with the “right” answer, listen to really understand them.

3. Validate Their Pain

A friend recently told me the story of a little girl who told her teacher that her parents were divorcing. Her teacher said, “I’m so sorry.” The little girl responded, “Oh no, it’s okay.” Thankfully, the teacher didn’t stop there. She said, “No, it’s not okay. It stinks. It’s not supposed to be this way.” The little girl began to cry and finally admitted how hard it was for her.

Sadly, it is often rare for someone to validate our pain. So tell them: it’s okay not to be okay. It’s okay to feel those uncomfortable emotions. If they feel frustrated, angry, abandoned, betrayed, not good enough, or rejected, that’s actually normal given the situation. Instead of stuffing those feelings away, they need to give themselves permission to feel it all.

Say things like, “This isn’t the way it is supposed to be,” “I’m so sorry, this must be really hard,” or “I would feel that way too.”

4. Tell Them: It’s Not Your Fault

After giving a talk to college students, one student told me that her dad still blames her for the divorce that happened about 10 years ago. Hard to believe, I know.

Now, I doubt most parents blame their children for the divorce. But as the children, we may be tempted to blame ourselves for the divorce. Or we may think we could have prevented it.

So, tell them: the divorce is not your fault. You did not cause it. And there is nothing you could have done to prevent it.

5. Be There for Them

When something bad happens in life, we naturally want to fix it and take away the pain. But often, the best response to another’s pain is simply your presence. Just be with them in the pain, as psychotherapist Megan Devine explains so well in this video.

So, make sure they know you are there for them. Tell them they’re not alone and they can talk to you when they need.

And in whatever way is appropriate, make sure they know they are loved. Because chances are, they feel pretty unloved right now.

6. Encourage Them to Journal

Encourage them to write about what's happening and how they feel about it. In her book Emotional Agility, Harvard psychologist Dr. Susan David explains the benefits of writing about emotionally significant events in our lives.

In short, studies show that those who write about emotionally significant events experienced an increase in physical and mental well-being, were happier, less depressed, and less anxious. Thousands of studies have confirmed these and many more benefits.

So encourage them to write. If they need it, buy them a journal.

7. Give Them a Break

They may need a break from home if things are too intense. They may need to stay with you, a relative, or a trusted family friend. It could be for a weekend, a week, a month, or even an extended time.

8. Tell Them: God Doesn’t Want This

If they’re religious, they likely struggle to understand why God would let this happen.

It’s important they know that God does not want this to happen. He hates that this is happening. In fact, the Bible says he hates divorce (see Malachi 2:16). Even if it is necessary and the right choice in a particular situation, it’s not the ideal that he wants. But he is right there with them in the midst of the pain.

9. Help Them Set Healthy Boundaries

They need to know it’s okay to set and enforce boundaries with Mom and Dad. For example, if Dad is saying bad things about Mom, they can and should say, "Dad, it hurts me when you say those things about Mom. Would you please not talk about Mom around me?"

Also, make sure they know that as children, they are not meant to be their parents’ emotional support. From experience, I have seen how damaging that can be for the children.

So, boundaries are needed. Encourage them to say things like, "Mom, I know this is really hard for you. But it's really difficult to hear all of this. Would you please talk to a friend or someone else about all of this? I want to love you, but I need to do it in another way."

10. Show Them Good Marriages

Seeing our parents’ marriage fall apart usually makes us believe that love and marriage don’t last. And so, we may run from it. Even if we overcome that fear and try to build lasting love, our concept of love and marriage is broken. Simply put, we don’t have a roadmap for love.

This can’t be fixed overnight. And now may not be the right time to address this. But one way to heal our broken concept of love and marriage is to show us what a good marriage is supposed to look like. Not in theory, but in reality.

And so, if you have a good marriage (not perfect, good) invite them to spend time with you and your family. If not, arrange for them to spend time with a good couple and their family.

This Advice Isn’t Enough

While the advice above is helpful, it isn’t enough. They need more help. That’s why Restored exists: to help children of divorce. We offer the practical guidance and support they need to heal and grow from the trauma of their parents’ separation or divorce, so they can feel whole again and thrive. And so, invite them to listen to our podcast or send them the free chapters to our new book, It’s Not Your Fault.

We believe they shouldn't have to face this alone. We’re here to give them the help they deserve.

PS - The advice above assumes there is trust between you and the person whose parents are separating or divorcing. Not the case? Start by building a relationship, so they trust you. Be vulnerable with them, so they feel comfortable opening up to you.

---

FREE Course

In only 2 hours, learn how to help someone from a divorced or broken family:

• Understand their pain and experience through studies and stories

• Do or say the right things and avoid the wrong ones

• Feel competent and confident in offering help

• Learn about resources to help them

• Help them break the cycle and avoid passing their brokenness onto the people they love the most

#098: Healing Sexual Brokenness: 6 Steps for Women to Break Free | Kelsey Skoch

If you’re a woman that struggles with unwanted sexual behavior, have you felt like you’re the only female that struggles? If so, that’s an absolute lie. In fact, one study found that ~75% of women 18-30 reported viewing porn at least once a month. 

With more and more women struggling with porn and masturbation, speaker and author Kelsey Skoch joins the show to share steps you can take as a woman to find freedom. We also discuss:

• Kelsey’s past struggles, what helped her find freedom, and what her life is like now

• How unhealed trauma can contribute to unwanted sexual behavior, including the trauma of your parents’ divorce or broken family

• How some people claim these behaviors are good for women, but Kelsey shares how she’s only seen it damage women

Buy Kelsey’s book, Uncompromising Purity (Buy on Amazon)

Take the My Broken Family Assessment

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Kelsey Skoch

  • Website

  • Facebook

  • Instagram

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

#097: 3 Tips to Help Someone from a Divorced or Broken Family

Are you worried about someone you love or lead from a divorced or broken family? Do you want to help them, but feel unequipped and somewhat helpless?

In this episode, you’ll learn 3 tips to help them and a NEW resource on how to help someone from a divorced or broken family, so you can do and say the right things, avoid the wrong ones, and offer real help.

Get Real Help Course

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Research

  • Dr. Paul Amato

• Books

  • The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce: The 25 Year Landmark Study by Dr. Judith Wallerstein

  • Primal Loss: The Now-Adult Children of Divorce Speak

• Blog

  • Read stories here about how divorce or the breakdown of their families has affected people

• Podcast

  • Listen to stories of young people from divorced and broken families:

    • #008: The Hardest Part of My Life | Miranda Rodriguez

    • #094: Are You Trying to Outrun Your Trauma? | Alana Mesko

    • #082: You Deserve Better than a Broken Life and Relationships | Kailash Duraiswami

    • #064: Your Broken Family and Mistakes Don’t Need to Dictate Your Future | Maggie Kim

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

I Felt Afraid of Not Being Able to Control My Emotions

5-minute read.

This story was written by Danielle Beatty at 31 years old. Her parents divorced when he was 6 months old. She gave permission for her story to be shared.

her STORY

I was six months old when my mom and dad separated and a year old when they divorced. I don't remember what happened, but through family members and asking questions, I've learned their marriage had problems long before I came into their lives. I went back and forth between the two of them until I was three years old and have a few memories from that time. It came to light that my dad had an affair during the time he and my mom were married. From that affair, he fathered my half-brother who is a couple of months younger than me. Shortly after that, my dad decided to stop visitation and remained out of my life until I was seventeen.

HOW THE brokeness MADE hER FEEL

I felt out of control and scared. I don't think I could've told you that when I was younger let alone while it was happening. Yet, I knew something was wrong. My dad stopping visitation really hurt me. I wondered why he left and if it had been my fault. I remember crying a lot and feeling very sensitive to things around me growing up. As a preschooler, I drew pictures of my family that included my dad, stepmom, half-brother, and stepsister. I thought of them as family. They were until my dad stopped seeing me. My mom remarried when I was five and I remember her telling me that my stepdad was now my dad. I felt confused. Is this how families are made? Can you just decide you don’t like one, leave and start another? I didn’t ask questions because I felt scared. I just thought I guess that's how these things work. People can get new families. I stopped asking questions about my dad, half-brother, stepmom, and stepsister, despite continuing to regularly see my grandparents from my dad’s side. Even though I was part of a new family, I felt confused, separated, and disconnected from my family. As a kid, I remember not acting out because I didn't want to do anything that would make my mom leave too, so I followed the rules but felt very afraid most of my childhood.

HOW THE brokenness IMPACTED her

I wrestled with a deep sense of rejection. I lived with the lie that I was the one to blame. That it was my fault my parents divorced. Consequently, I internalized my pain from my parent's divorce, keeping it all inside and trying to figure it out on my own thinking more information would make it all better. When my mom and stepdad separated and later divorced my senior year of high school, I didn't tell any of my friends that they were separated. I should know how to handle this, I thought. Not sharing what I was going through with anyone left me isolated, lonely, and suffocated by shame. My mom set me up with counseling, but despite going weekly for about a year, I chose not to talk about what was happening at home. Rather, I said what I thought I needed to say just to get out of there. I gave myself no freedom to process it because I felt so scared of being rejected, scared that what I said would get back to my mom and she would leave or not love me and I felt afraid of not being able to control my emotions if I started expressing them. I didn’t want someone else I loved to leave too. If I misbehaved, maybe they would. I thought I had to act a certain way and told myself it was safer to keep everyone at a distance because, in some way shape, or form, this was my fault. I caused this destruction. What a lie! I threw myself into school studies and extracurricular activities. Any kind of stress I could get a hold of to help drown out the chaos inside I took.
When I was in college, I got connected with a church. Through that church, I joined a bible study, where one of the women spoke into my life. She let me know that the things I was believing about being destructive, at fault, and rejected didn't sound like how Jesus sees me and were lies from the enemy. Through a faith community, counseling, and inner healing prayer, I am relearning how to live in my own skin, embracing my identity as a child of Christ, feeling the Father’s love for me, and learning how to accept my story. It is not my fault what happened between my parents. It hurt me and mattered, yes. Yet, it is not the end of my story. There is hope. There is freedom. There is life after this death.

ADVICE FOR SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS JUST SEPARATED OR DIVORCED

Breathe and feel. Just like waves in the ocean, your feelings will rise and fall. Ride them but don't let them take you under. They are taking you to a new place and if you are a Christian, invite Jesus into that place. He will clarify what He is doing in that space with you, all you have to do is ask.
While not everyone needs to know what's going on in your inner world (like your social media followers), you do need to let a few trusted people into that part of your world. I have two friends who walked with me through that season who are still in my life to this day. They gave me permission to let it all out, which sometimes looked like sitting in a room in silence with me because I felt frozen by not knowing how to start unraveling the chaos I felt inside. Give yourself space to be free to speak about it. For me when I didn't have that outlet, the words, thoughts, and feelings crept out of me into other relationships and those relationships left me feeling vulnerable (not in a good way), awkward, and more lonely. I don't wish that on anyone. So, I recommend giving yourself space to feel and letting a few trusted people outside of your family into that place too.

---

Are you interested in sharing your story with Restored?  If so, click the button above. Sharing your story can help you begin healing. 

Be assured: Your privacy is very important to us. Your name and story will never be shared unless you give explicit permission.

#096: How to Heal from the Trauma of Your Parents’ Divorce or Broken Family | Margaret Vasquez

If you come from a broken family, did your parents’ divorce or family dysfunction bring emotional problems, bad habits, and relationship struggles into your life? As a result, do you feel unsure how to heal and afraid that you’ll repeat the cycle?

In this episode, we unveil a NEW and FREE resource to help you heal from the trauma of your parents’ divorce or broken family, so you can break the cycle and build a better life. In doing so, we discuss:

• What is trauma and how does it affect you?

• Why is your parents’ divorce or family dysfunction the most impactful type of trauma?

• How do you heal from it?

Get Broken to Whole Course

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Margaret Vasquez

  • Wholeness and Holiness Podcast

  • Sacred Heart Healing Ministries

• Restored Podcast Episodes with Margaret Vasquez

  • Episode 83

  • Episode 63

  • Episode 37

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

It Didn’t Have to Be Like This

3 minute read.

This story was written by an anonymous woman at 31 years old. Her parents were never married and broke up before she was born. She gave permission for her story to be shared.

Her STORY

I grew up going back and forth between homes. My dad would always bad-talk my mom any chance he could get. My mom struggled financially for a long time (until she married my stepdad when I was in elementary school), while my dad was decently wealthy and made minimal payments reluctantly. When I was 1, he married my stepmom. It was an abusive household. I can remember begging my mom to not make me go - but of course, she had to take me. I never opened up with her about the abuse. I didn’t know it was. It wasn’t until we took a vacation with my dad’s family (middle school) that I came back with an enormous bruise that my mom contacted her lawyer, and I never had to go again. Years later he got a divorce from my stepmom, and my relationship with her and my half-siblings began again. Unfortunately, this didn’t last, while I was seeking help for the trauma I had endured, they were not. As the years went by, their unhealthy behaviors became more and more difficult to ignore and deal with, and eventually, I chose to step away to protect myself, my husband, and children.

HOW THE brokeness MADE her FEEL

I never knew what it meant to have a family. People would always act like it was such a blessing to have 2 of this, 2 of that. I felt like an outsider. I was also lonely among my peers, there weren’t many kids who related to me. Now I don’t have any relationship with my dad, which is a double-edged sword. While I’m not interested in being in contact with him, it didn’t have to be like this. It was his own actions that led us here.

HOW THE brokenness IMPACTED her

I spent many years as a people pleaser, and very co-dependent. I saw it as a strength that I was always willing to do what other people wanted me to. Who was I? Because of this, I made a lot of really unhealthy friendships, many of which ended really painfully. I always saw myself as the problem, and really, I was. I didn’t know how to say no, how to decline hanging out with someone who wasn’t healthy. I clung to people who wanted to cling to me. Now I am probably over the top hyper-aware of friendships and relationships, but I’m slower to speak and react when things feel unsure.

ADVICE FOR SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS JUST SEPARATED OR DIVORCED

It’s not your fault. What I’ve found in my own situation is that the adults in my life who treated me poorly never dealt with their own trauma. Their behavior toward you and toward each other has nothing to do with you. It’s not your responsibility to help them. You deal with your trauma, if they consistently push back on your growth, you have to set boundaries, and if necessary, close the door. Figure out your own hurt so that you can give your kids a better life and put an end to the chaos, destruction, and heartbreak.

---

Are you interested in sharing your story with Restored?  If so, click the button above. Sharing your story can help you begin healing. 

Be assured: Your privacy is very important to us. Your name and story will never be shared unless you give explicit permission.

I Lost My Sense of Home

4 minute read.

This story was written by Shannon Combs at 24 years old. Her parents divorced when she was 20. She gave permission for her story to be shared.

Her STORY

I was a junior in college. I got a call one night from my mother. Her voice seemed hesitant and I knew something was wrong. She told me that she and my dad were getting divorced because he had been having an affair. My parents were married for 29.5 years. This came out of nowhere for me and my siblings. I had just visited them a month prior during my Christmas break. The affair and divorce led to one disaster after another. My father, who was a sober alcoholic, began drinking again out of shame and guilt over what the affair did to his family. This was the first time I had truly dealt with his alcoholism. At that time of my life, I lived in horrible anxiety and depression, trying to grapple with the divorce of my parents, the affair, and my father's drinking. Unfortunately, my father found himself in jail for a year due to behaviors while under the influence because he could not stop drinking his pain away. This was the breaking point for me. I felt like my life was falling apart. I was hurt, betrayed, angry, and embarrassed. March of 2020 and the onset of COVID sent me back home from college. I felt like I didn't have a home to return to though after everything happening with my family. 2020 was hard for everyone, but for me, it had nothing to do with COVID. It had to do with the consequences of my parent's divorce.

HOW THE DIVORCE MADE her FEEL

I was hurt, betrayed, angry, and embarrassed. It was as if I was living in a nightmare. For 20 years of my life, we were a relatively normal, suburban, Christian family. The divorce divided my family unit into two. I lost my sense of home, literally and figurately. The only thing I had trust in was Christ. He was and is my Rock, but it was still a season of immense struggle.

HOW THE DIVORCE IMPACTED her

My parents got divorced when I was in college. So I was semi-independent, but it still left me feeling like a homeless child. It also made me resort to certain tendencies in my own relationship, particularly my marriage. It left me with a lot of trust issues and an unhealthy and outright wrong understanding of marriage. Thank God for the Church, and a priest who counseled my husband and me with gentleness and love so that we could be equipped going into our marriage at a time when I had just been impacted by my own parents' divorce.

ADVICE FOR SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS JUST SEPARATED OR DIVORCED

Don't confuse your grief with guilt. A divorce is the death of a family, something you will grieve. I felt a lot of guilt over my parents' divorce - sad for both of my parents and felt a sense of responsibility to save their marriage or to be their primary caretaker. While my father chose to have an affair, I couldn't play the role of my mom's therapist or best friend, or pastor. Nor could I be my father's confessor or AA sponsor. I was their daughter and I was a victim as well. I couldn't be a neutral party for my mom and my father, but I could still love and forgive them.

As a child of divorce, whether you are a kid or an adult, you have to create boundaries to protect yourself and your loved ones. You have to be willing to stand up for your own healing—which you can do without trampling on someone else or making the person who started it all feel even worse.

---

Are you interested in sharing your story with Restored?  If so, click the button above. Sharing your story can help you begin healing. 

Be assured: Your privacy is very important to us. Your name and story will never be shared unless you give explicit permission.

#095: Healing Happens When We Ask for Help | Tanya Lyons

You feel broken. You want to heal. But you’re unwilling to ask for help.

If that describes you, your ability to heal will be stifled. Nobody ever healed their broken leg without the help, knowledge, or experience of others. Healing only happens with the love and help of other people. 

In this episode, we discuss that and more as my guest shares :

• How it took 20 years for her to pursue counseling, but how she found healing there

• Why is it so difficult to talk about our parents’ divorce or broken family and what can we do about that?

• Why taking risks feels extra scary for people like us and what to do if you feel that fear

Buy Tanya’s Book, Come Home Laughing

Join the Course Waitlist

Take the My Broken Family Assessment

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Tanya Lyons

  • Email: comehomelaughing@gmail.com

  • Facebook

  • Instagram

  • YouTube

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you feel broken and you want to heal, but you're unwilling to ask for help, your ability to heal will be greatly stifled. Imagine breaking your leg. Nobody ever healed their broken leg without the help, knowledge or experience of other people such as doctors, physical therapists, or even people who've broken their legs and learned how to heal and strengthen it. Healing only happens with the love and support of other people. And we discuss that and more in this episode as my guest shares how it took her 20 years to finally pursue counseling, but how she found healing there, we discuss why it's so difficult for people like us to talk about our parents, divorce or broken family. And what we can do about that. We also talk about how taking risks can feel extra scary for people like us and offer advice on what to do if you feel that fear and we hit on well, we want to rely on others and rely on God even in a healthy way to to heal us. But at the same time, we can expect them to do all the work for us. We have to put in the work ourselves. So, keep listening. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panelli. This is episode 95. If you found this podcast helpful in navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce and even finding healing. I'm thrilled to announce a new resource from restored. That'll help you even more. We'll be releasing two video courses. The first course is titled Broken to Whole Tactic to Heal From your parents', divorce or Broken Marriage. That course answers the questions. What is trauma, how does trauma in general but also the trauma of your parents', divorce or dysfunctional family affect? You begin to some of the signs of that even. It's really fascinating. What can you do to heal from it and even prevent yourself from being traumatized in the future and so much more. And that course is actually taught by a trauma therapist with over 15 years of experience healing people from their trauma. The second course is titled Real Help, a guide to Confidently help someone from a divorce or broken family. And that course answers the questions. What struggles do, Children of divorce or dysfunction typically face, what should you say, not say do and not do in order to help them. How do you start those difficult conversations? What should you do if they seem fine and some special tips for parents as well and so much more. And that course is actually taught by me. The content itself is actually based on a lot of research but also on a restored article that ranks top three on Google and receives over 3000 views a month. So stay tuned for the launch of each of those episodes that will be coming to you very soon. And if you'd like to join the waitlist to get notified first and be given special advanced access, just go to restored ministry dot com slash courses or just click on the link in the show notes. And when you do that, you'll get a bonus on building healthy relationships and a strong marriage. Again, go to restored ministry dot com slash courses or just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Tanya Lyons. Tanya grew up in a small town in western Canada. After high school, she joined an international organization, youth with a mission first as a volunteer and then as a staff member, her passion for a Christian discipleship and teaching has taken her to over 40 nations and given her the opportunity to live on three continents. In 2015, she graduated with a master's in Christian formation and discipleship as part of her degree, Tanya researched and wrote a book about the spiritual journey of adult Children of divorce called Come Home Laughing. Since then, she's written three other books and is working on her fifth, a book about getting married for the first time later in life, Tanya is a trained life coach. She enjoys drinking black coffee, geo cashing, swing dancing and discussing what she's reading. She lives in Glasgow Scotland with her husband Patrick and a quick disclaimer. Tanya is a Christian as you can tell. So we speak about God and about faith in the episode. But even if you don't believe in God, you're still going to get a lot out of this episode. And my challenge to you is this just listen with an open mind again. Even if you take the God parts out, you'll still benefit a lot. Here's my conversation with Tanya. Tanya. Welcome to the show. Hey, great to be here as we usually do. I'd like to just dive right in with the deep and heavy topics that we often talk about in the show. But I'm curious in your situation, how old were you when your parents separated and divorced? And what happened there? Yes. So I was 10 when my parents divorced. I really had no idea that they were having any difficulties in their marriage. I think I was just oblivious to it. And uh one day after school, my mom sat me and my brother down on the couch and just said your dad and I don't love each other anymore. And I'm gonna go stay with grandma. So she got her suitcase in the car and drove away and um we saw her later that weekend and found out there was actually more to the story than that. Ok, what led up to it like? So you said things at home were good or at least appeared to be fun from your perspective as a kid. Was there any insight into mom and dad are having problems or anything like that? You know, I don't remember as a kid at 10 years old knowing that there was anything. But later on they did refer that they had gone to counseling for a bit. But the, the part that was more to the story is that my mom was seeing somebody else found out later on that they had been having an affair and then maybe tried to stop and then continued on. So as I understand that was actually going on for a few years before the decision to for my mom to leave and the divorce to happen. Wow. Ok. I'm really sorry to hear that. That's devastating for everyone involved, especially the Children too. I think so often when there's an affair, we tend to think that, you know, obviously the spouse that was cheated on is very hurt and that makes sense. Um And they need, you know, the love and support and healing, of course too. But the Children in a very real way were cheated on too. And so, um so yeah, that's really rough to go through and I'm curious, um, you know, how did all of that, how did your parents divorce that affair even affect you? Especially in your future relationships? I mean, isn't that the greatest question to ask? And it's so hard to sort of finally make sense of it, you know. And, um, but I think the short answer is it just made me afraid to trust people and it made me question my own worth was I worthy of love? Would people stick around for me? I think I really adopted the, the view that all relationships were temporary friendships, romantic. It didn't matter what it was, but that it was more of a when they're gonna leave me not, are they gonna leave me? I ended up very, is isolating myself basically as self protection trying to keep from getting hurt potentially. And even though of course, I really wanted love and connection, but I did not know how, how to build those healthy relationships. So it really kind of got me stuck in a really a painful cycle of wanting something but not being able to, to build those friendships or relationships. I totally follow you there. And I think those of us who come from broken families who are listening right now can totally relate. I know for me, I have the desire to build, you know, healthy relationships, good friendships even and especially a good future marriage. And, uh, like you said, I just felt totally lost. I had no idea how to do that. And I was just filled with a ton of anxiety like you said, a lot of fear that gosh, am I going to repeat my parents' mistakes? Am I going to just end up going through a divorce one day like they did? And I knew with everything inside of me that I didn't want that because I saw how painful it was for them. But I also experienced that pain myself, you know, going through their parents divorce as, you know, an 11 year old boy. And so, um, so I totally can relate with you on that. And I think for many years and the idea of marriage was just so unappealing to me because it just had such a negative connotation. I was quite bitter about marriage and thought it's just a, a bad idea and I couldn't really see any beauty in it or any, you know, way that it would possibly benefit me. So that was confusing too because I thought, well, then what is life about if it's not about family and if it's not about connection, if it's not about belonging? So I think it was quite painful and, and very disorienting as a kid at that age. Yeah, I remember thinking to, like you said, I, you know, if this is where marriage leads, I want nothing to do with it. And I even, you know, silently swore to myself that I will never get married after that whole experience. And thankfully found a lot of healing and overcame that, that lie that, you know, you're kind of doomed to repeat the cycle. But certainly it's, it's scary. And my opinion, you know, there's obviously decreasing marriage rates today in our world, people are getting married less and less and some people point to different factors. But I, I think that broken families and going through your parents' divorce at the core of it. I, I think obviously there is that fear of commitment that everyone always talks about and, you know, younger generations. But what I've seen is that they're not so much afraid of commitment, they're afraid of, like we're talking about repeating that cycle of dysfunction, repeating what they saw in their parents' marriage or perhaps the marriages around them. And so it makes so much sense that they would then, you know, try other things like, you know, having some sort of committed relationship as opposed to a marriage. Um, it, it, but it's sad to see and I think that's, uh underneath this whole crisis that we have where we're just giving up on love and on marriage altogether. Yeah, I think there's two layers to it that I've seen in my life is one I don't think I'm capable or I wonder, am I capable of actually doing something that I've never seen? Like being committed, being faithful, truly having a love that lasts for my whole lifetime, decades and decades and then there's the fear of, or the question, would anybody want me, you know, am I too broken or too complicated or, or just not valuable enough that anyone would want to give that to me? So, it's both ways it's, can I give that to somebody and would somebody ever want to, or choose to give that to me? So, yeah, it's kind of two problems at the same time. It seems like. Yeah. No, I like the way you said that I remember, I think it was in college. I was able to put words to this feeling I had that you just mentioned the second part. At least that I felt like a gift that wasn't worth giving. And I felt like if I were to, you know, give myself to someone that eventually they would just give up on me and leave because they would realize like, oh you're really broken or oh, you, you know, you're not worth loving. And so I totally feel that felt that fear and I think so many people who've been through what we've been through, experience that as well. Yeah. And I think for me, there was definitely the sense of like a disillusionment about the word love as well. You know, hearing my parents say, oh, we love you, Tanya and we want what's best for you. But then feeling like this doesn't feel like love, this feels terrible. What, what's happened to me what's happened to our family feels the exact opposite of love. And so I remember in different relationships that I had that didn't go anywhere if the guy would ever start talking about love. I'd be like, don't even say love. I don't even want to hear that. That is not even in my vocabulary. It was just such a, just a reflection of, of how I felt and what I'd experienced. And yeah, it's quite, it's quite sad when I look back at the younger me who, but understandably who really felt like love is such a, a terrible thing and a fickle thing. Yeah. I couldn't agree more with you and I totally get where you're coming from, shifting to healing and growth. I'm curious, what were a few things that really helped you to, to heal and to cope with the pain that you have endured? I mean, the first one that comes to mind is counseling, but I was probably 30 before. I was really, really willing to talk about my experience and the painful parts of it. Um, before that I was just so nonchalant about. Yeah. Yeah. My parents divorced. Yeah. Yeah. This is the thing. Yeah. Yeah. Really kind of just trying to build those walls and keep, keep it distant from myself. So, yeah, when I think I was around 30 31 when I started to go to counseling and it was such a healthy, wonderful gift to finally have a place where I could tell somebody how I really felt without trying to downplay it or protect my parents or kind of feel ashamed of, of my story, but I could just lay it all out. It was incredibly healing. And so that was a huge, a huge step for me. And another thing that I found really helpful even before that, but looking back, I see how helpful it was, was being able to spend some time with healthy families. So I had one work colleague in particular who him and his wife, sort of just they weren't that much older than me, but they had a bunch of kids and kind of an open door policy in their home and they just let me be part of their life, whether it was grocery shopping, cooking, um hanging out on a Saturday. And so just, and if I was soaking it up watching how they dealt with their kids, how they treated each other. And that was a super healing uh restorative experience for me. So I still love hanging out with, with families and kids and kind of, I still am learning about what does it look like to really love your spouse and love your kids and love your parents from them. Beautiful. I love both those things and I found them helpful as well. And it's so interesting in the 90 plus interviews that we've done in this show at this point. Uh That's such a clear trend that spending time with healthy marriages and families is incredibly healing. Mhm. Yeah. And to me it just thinks what a gift it is if you have healthy marriage and family to, to open your home to people, um who you might think we don't have anything to show them. We're not the experts but man, what a gift it is to have that healthy, healthy family and marriage is not perfect but one that, that really is built on love and caring for one another. Yeah, I totally agree. It's a good challenge to everyone listening right now. Who has, you know, a good marriage, a healthy marriage, not a perfect one. Uh You can be such an inspiration, such a help to those of us who, you know, find that whole idea and that whole experience so foreign to us, it can truly be a training in how to love. It can be a school of love which which we greatly need if we want to go on and break that cycle and build those healthy relationships and hopefully a strong marriage in the future. Uh One thing that you've mentioned as well is that you found your relationship with God, incredibly healing. So I wanted to talk a little bit about that. How has that been healing for you? And what in particular have you done to find healing through that relationship? Yeah. Thanks for that. For sure. I didn't come to any faith. Until I was a late teenager. So for, you know, almost eight years, Paul following my parents um divorce, I didn't have any kind of faith connection or any relationship with God. And uh looking back, I can see how my coming to faith really brought this whole sense of connection and belonging that I'm not alone anymore that even though my parents don't understand or my friends might not understand, my sibling doesn't understand. At least God understands me. And that I think it was incredibly healing for me, just this awareness that I'm not alone. And then over the years, I think, you know, learning how to connect with God through prayer, through meditation and just the sense that I don't have to pretend with God. God's the one person that I can truly be open and honest with about every area of my life, whatever I'm struggling with, whatever I'm proud of or what I'm ashamed of that I don't have to hide myself from God. And that a sense of unconditional love and acceptance has been uh such a healing thing though. It didn't just happen overnight and it is still a process for me to really remind myself that I am loved by God. I am seen by him. So I think that was kind of maybe the slow burn of of healing has come through that being able to look to, to God for the love that I really need and long for beautiful And no, I could totally see how that is so healing and I love the word you use pretending. It's so interesting. I think so often that really describes the experience of a lot of young people who come from divorce or broken families is that we do feel the need to pretend in one way or another. Like we all often have these like almost multiple identities where we're one way with mom and one way with dad and maybe one way with relatives and one way with friends and it can be a lot to carry. And so uh talk about that a little bit more. What have you seen in your own life and the lives of people, you know, who've, you know, gone through this experience when it comes to pretending and then, you know, on the opposite end of that is like you said, being that like genuine, authentic self. Yeah, I mean, I think it is such an interesting dynamic that has I can see in my life and others is that you learn from a young age, I learned from a young age that rules were different at mom's house and dad's house expectations were different. I think many Children of divorced and separated parents would kind of become the caretaker for our parents or our siblings were kind of trying to think for me, it came from a fear of like if I don't keep them happy, they will leave me as well, I wouldn't have said it that way. But really, that's what my motivation was as a young girl. And so always trying to, to think ahead, what do they need? What do they want? How do I keep them happy? Never being able to relax into a situation. Never being able to be honest about what I was happy about or angry about or sad about what I needed. Always putting other people first. So that habits and that patterns, you know, it makes you a good friend. It makes you a good child because you're always easy to please. And you're always working really hard to keep other people happy. But it, it meant that I, nobody ever knew all of me. That's how I felt that I was, there was parts of me that were just unknown and un valued or un cared for. So mom saw certain things, dad saw certain things, grandma saw certain things, my teacher saw certain things my friend. But I guess I was afraid that if I revealed too much that I would be rejected. So I think that the kids from divorced families, we can be the chameleon. And the again, which maybe at the time, you just think this is what everybody does. But then later on, at least for me, I realized this is incredibly lonely and it's hard work. It's very stressful to always be trying to figure out what people want and be that person instead of simply being totally, it's exhausting like he said and, and that's what I experienced 100%. And yeah, needing to play all those different roles is so real. I um I've seen two trends in people like us who uh we, we've kind of become rescuers in a lot of senses, maybe not always, but I've seen it to be more likely in people like us. And underneath that I think is almost like a cry for help, like we want someone to rescue us. And so in a way, we're like trying to rescue everyone else. And uh and so I think it is really beautiful and helpful when you can make that switch to realize like it's not a bad thing to help other people. We're obviously not their savior. We can't like, you know, solve all their problems, take away all their pain, but it's not a bad thing to love and help people with healthy boundaries. Um But at the same time, if we continually ignore our own need for, for healing, for, you know, someone to, to help us to in a way rescue us without doing everything for us, which we'll touch on a little bit later. There, there can be so much growth, there can be so much healing when we just, you know, acknowledge that and seek out the right resources to, to heal. Yeah. And I think um for me, if the faith thing has been so helpful because it was finally one place where I could actually come as I am. I don't have to pretend because God knows it all like he knows everything about me every part of my life. So I didn't have to though there were many times I think where I did approach faith the same way I approached my other relationships, trying to imagine what God wanted me to do what the right answer was, what the acceptable thing was. But over the years, I have become more comfortable with letting him rescue me, you know, whatever that means, whether that's just giving me the, the love and affection I need or the support I need the emotional encouragement I need and all kinds of other, other parts of daily life. Yeah. That makes so much sense. Are there any um maybe practical examples, especially for people listening right now who don't believe in God or don't have any sort of faith? I'm just curious, like, how have you experienced that? Maybe in the last few months or last year, whatever time frame where it's been maybe a little bit more like, you know, you, you, you see God's hand in it, but it's not like this big booming voice from our love. Um Because I think that's sometimes what people imagine when they think of like God expressing its love for us is that we think it's like, you know, again, this miraculous experience, but so often what I've learned is it can be in the really simple, ordinary, everyday things that you can see, you can see as end. Yeah, I think, oh, my husband and I bought a house recently and, um, that was really as a first time thing for me. I've moved 20 times in my adult life, a very transient life style. And so this was a whole new idea. Marriage is brand new. But then also thinking of buying a home and when we, we put on offers and houses, they weren't accepted, we looked at places um and continue to pray that God would help us find a home and take care of us. And uh one particular time we had to move out of one place and into a new place and we tried to find a place to move into. We just could not find a rental place or anything and then just got a, a text out of the blue one day from a a friend saying, hey, are you guys looking for a place to stay? Because our tenants just moved out and we need some money to move into our place. And anyways, we ended up moving in like two days after their tenants moved out, it worked out completely like we had planned it though. We had not planned it. And, and to me, that was an example of God being like a father to me or a parent to me and caring for me doing something that I just could not figure out on my own even though I'm a fully grown person and I'm competent in every, in so many areas of life. But just seem like, uh, I couldn't sort it out without God without help and God took care of me and took care of me and my husband. So I don't know if that's what you're looking for, but that, to me is such an encouragement. Um, that I'm not alone in life, even in really practical things that have nothing to do with divorce just day to day living. No, no, I think that's beautiful. I love when like, faith has been more practical and I think it's a great example of it. And um, you know, there's, I think there's so many examples, but one of the ways that I've kind of seen God in my own life, at least the way he communicates to me is often through my desires. Like, like I have a desire to like, help someone to reach out to someone or, or do something like this whole nonprofit is an example of it. Like I took, you know, time to discern and think through like, is this actually what I'm supposed to do what God wants me to do? And it got, you know, the green light. And so, um but he really placed a heart desire in my heart to, to help people who come from towards and broken families. Um so he speaks to me through my desires, speaks to me through other people. Probably the most often, like someone will say something, especially if I'm struggling in some area, you know, a friend or one of my mentors will say something. It's like, dang, like that's exactly what I need to hear. And I don't even think you realized that's exactly what I need to hear. Um And then finally realizations, I don't know if that's the best word to use, but things will just kind of click or, you know, I thought will come to mind from like nowhere. And I'll be like, wow, OK, that's like kind of a key to whatever problem I'm facing or shuffle or whatever. And so um to people, I think um who yeah, maybe are foreign to this idea of like prayer, talking to God and things like that. Um A lot of these things can seem like coincidences and that's fair to think that. But I think when you see so many of these things happening again and again throughout your life, you start to realize like, really like, is this, is this really a coincidence? So, um so a lot of beauty there and kind of going back to this whole faith aspect of healing. So, you know, like you said that um desire to belong so often we feel that we don't belong because our family fell apart and we don't belong in our own families, like where in the world are we going to belong if we don't belong there? And so, um, so I want to go deeper on that topic. But before I do any final thoughts, well, when you're talking about the way that you, you know, coincidences or things that just become clear to you, I find God often or I, I find a lot of what would you say, Victor watching TV, where I'm seeing characters interact and I'm thinking, oh, that's like I see a parent being kind to a child or I see a friend showing compassion to someone and it really becomes sort of like a spiritual experience for me where I think that is what love looks like. That is how I can be loving to people in my life or, or while that person actually was loving to me, it helps me reinterpret my life sometimes through giving me some more examples of, of what healthy relationships look like or, or just sometimes, you know, you're like, I can relate to that character and they've taken a risk. So I'm gonna take a risk. So somehow. Um yeah, just I think there are lots of connections in daily life if you have the eyes to see them um where it might be some type of faith and a spiritual connection. So, yeah, I'm not sure that's really coming through the way, but nevertheless, there you have it. Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes sense. And I appreciate you sharing that. Um aside from your own story, what have you seen that helps people like us who come from doors or broken families to heal from the trauma we've endured in our personal lives and in our relationships, I think for sure, the relational connection with people where it's not like when people are open and honest with me about whatever area they do not have to be from a divorced or separated family. But when they're honest about their struggles, whether it's with finances or their relationships or their kids or their work or their studies or something, when people are open about what they're going through, then I feel such a sense of relief like, oh, they don't have everything together. So that gives me permission to then be open and honest about my struggles. And so so when friends or groups of people can be honest about their struggles, I just think it, it opens the door for deeper connection, which is what, what everybody longs for. So I think that that's kind of a very general but very helpful um, thing that I've seen is it gives people courage to then go, ok. I could talk about my stuff if they can talk about their stuff as well. Yeah, it's so refreshing when people just speak in like a real way. You know, this whole idea of real talk. It's like so so popular now, especially with these different podcasts like Joe Rogan, whether you love him or hate him. Uh, it's so, it's so interesting to listen because, you know, we're talking about, like, real topics and real issues and real problems that people face in a way that's like unfiltered, which is like you said, it's very refreshing. Yeah. You had mentioned before to how, you know, faith had played such a big role in your own healing. I'm curious, you know, how have you seen that happened in the lives of the people that you've led or walked with, who come from divorce or broken families? Yeah, I mean, what I love about faith and people's faith journey is no, no, too identical. And so what might really have been really healing to me does nothing for somebody else but vice versa. And so I love seeing other people, the things that stand out to them or not. But I think to summarize, I think the community aspect of faith uh is huge for many people. Um The sense of belonging so often the kids of divorce or separated parents, we don't have anywhere to go for the holidays. We don't have anybody who celebrates our life accomplishments with us. We don't have anywhere to go on summer holidays or we don't. Yeah, we kind of feel like we might be missing out on a lot of things that other people just take for granted. And so I've seen faith communities be a real place of, of input and service for, for Children from divorced separated families because it's a sense of you're one of us. You belong here, you have something to offer as well as something to receive. And I think I've seen a lot of people really flourish as they find a place of giving. So maybe a guy or gal gets to work with the kids club and all of a sudden the little kids are just mobbing them and loving on them and all of a sudden they're like, people wanna be around me and there's so much energy that comes from that or somebody goes, wow, I can fix the computers for the, the seniors in my, my community or my church. And all of a sudden they have something to offer and they have these sort of grandparent figures. And so this idea of like as we give to others, we receive so much, I think it can be so healing and, and a big part of what family can offer us, but that we might have missed out on if we, if we didn't have that beautiful. And I, I think there's a great lesson in that, that I'm learning from you. And that is um if you want those healthy, beautiful relationships, if you wanna find great friends, you have to be that for other people, you have to be that great friend. And it's something I think that we're always working on, we can improve upon always. But um but I think, yeah, like you said it almost begins to attract people to you. When you start to be that great friend, start to give, start to love, start to, you know, be selfless, like put other people's needs above your own. Of course, assuming in a healthy way with healthy boundaries. But um but I think there's a powerful lesson in that. Mhm And it is so affirming to realize that that you or that I have something to offer. And um I think for many years, I was so insecure and so afraid to take any risks of offering something because if I offer a bit of myself, even, it's just a pie that I baked or an idea for a conversation that I would get rejected. And I was so afraid of that, that I just, I never offered anything. So it took me a long time. Um And a lot of people inviting me in and asking me and saying, hey, Tanya, do you want to cook a pie for this? Do you wanna uh help do this project? Do you want to come to our party? Do you want to? So that invitation has been such a helpful thing for me in my healing journey. Just this idea that other people think I have something to offer. That was a foreign idea to me for so long. So I think I've, I've learned from that and it's benefited me so much and I try to operate that way as well. To really have an open, I don't know, an open mindset where there's always room for more people and it can be challenging at time because it's fun to hang out with people that I know and love. It's fun to, you know, have these tight friendships. But, but I think my experience of rejection and abandonment and isolation and stuff from my family has given me eyes to see people who might be on the fringes or on the outside or, or not like the coolest or most popular and to go, they're just as worthy of being included as anybody. And I wanna actually find ways to, to include them. Yeah, that makes so much sense. And I, I think it's a good place to start if you know, people are especially struggling socially and, and that's a common struggle as you know, for people like us who come from doors or broken families. And, um, and I've seen people make incredible ways and like grow a ton in that area, but a good place to start if you're kind of at the beginning of that journey is, um with those people, like you said, who may be a little bit more on the fringes or rejected or not as popular or cool or good looking or whatever, that can be a great place to start to build those friendships and of course, love them throughout. But I think that may feel a little bit safer as well. And I like what you touched on too. How there is this risk factor when we love, when we put ourselves out there, when we give that we might be misunderstood, or people might reject us in a sense. And I think it's important to acknowledge that. I know I've mentored young people who, you know, have experienced that sort of rejection where it's like, you know, they're trying to love, they're trying to be a great friend in a relationship and then they're misunderstood by a friend, they're rejected by someone they wanted to, you know, date or be with. And so it can be really challenging. But I think there's something so powerful and just that action of taking the risk. I think that makes you a better, stronger, more virtuous person. Um And in the end, in the moment, it's really painful and can feel debilitating. But in the end, I think you're going to become this again, better, stronger person. So, yeah, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that risk factor and kind of putting your neck out there and opening yourself up to potentially being rejected in, in smaller, perhaps pick ways. Well, as we're talking, one thing that stood out to me was just, I, I think it's pretty common for those of us who are divorced, separated families to kind of try to make things like black and white all or nothing. So this person is good, this person is bad this relationship is gonna be the one that I'm looking for or this one is gonna be terrible and sort of the idea of extreme thinking, like, and I, I can relate to that. I, I think it comes from sort of self protection, definitely from a self protection. So I wanna see if there's a problem before it ever becomes a problem so I can reject it and run away and stay safe. But what that means is that I become so afraid of anything that might be a danger that I never even let myself take a tiny risk, whether that's a job interview or someone that I wanna date back when I was single or, or just a friendship that I wanted to pursue or I mean, it's so many different categories. So it's been helpful for me to, to try to think, ok, can I instead of seeing everything is all good or all bad to try to see more nuance in that and to go? Ok, what's a, what's an appropriate risk to take in this situation instead of seeing risk is bad and dangerous and comfort as like the final goal or, you know, certainty as the final goal to go. What's a small step that I could take? What's a small risk that might help me to build that, that strength and that courage that you mentioned. And um and what's an appropriate amount of vulnerability to share? Because I think uh once I started trying to, once I started becoming more aware of my emotions and, and understanding that like, healthy relationships do involve emotional vulnerability. I was just so inexperienced that I just shared everything I would just like lay it all out there and overwhelm people with either my, my hopes and my expectations or my fears and it kind of freaked people out because I was really trying to give them all of me. Like I want to show you everything about me so that if you're gonna reject me, you'll do it now. And like it was just out of step with what a healthy relationship is or how relationships develop a little bit at a time. So, so I think I see a connection there. I don't know. What do you think? Yeah. No. Excellent points. And I totally agree with you that just touching on the last point, there is a temptation, right? When we're learning to kind of go from this place of just like sharing nothing to then share everything. And like you said, it can be overwhelming for the people in our lives who are, who do generally want to love us. But like you said, when something you know, is healthy, it grows gradually, like if you think of plants and trees and grass, like whatever, they usually don't just sprout up overnight. There's some exceptions to this. But um, it usually takes time, like, you know, hours, weeks, months, years, even for something to grow to blossom into its full potential. And so in the same way, like you're saying, relationships are like that. And so it's important that we kind of go at that slow rate. And I've seen this especially in romantic relationships for people like us is that we, you know, I tend to kind of jump in like head first where it's like, well, you know, I wanna, I really am attracted to you. I want to be with you. And so I'm just gonna give you everything and tell you everything and um it creates this really, it can create a really unhealthy dynamic in the relationship. Whereas if you kind of graduate the girl, like you said, there can be so much more peace, so much more joy and such a healthier dynamic in their relationship. And so such a great point there. I wanted to touch on one other thing you said too that we can become so obsessed with building this safe world where the small safe world where we control everything, where we mitigate all risk, where we're in no danger of hurt or harm that it just like destroys us. Like, like it makes our hearts hard like CS Lewis, you know, in that famous quote, um He, you know, he says to love it all is to be vulnerable. Like we cannot protect ourselves from being hurt from being harmed. The only place we can is really heaven or hell you know, and so in this, in this world, we're going to be hurt, we're going to be harmed and it's actually more dangerous to kind of put ourselves out of that possibility than it is to allow that to happen potentially. And so I've seen that too in my own life, like thinking back how, you know, I keep maybe my group of friends really small or keep the interactions I had like with different people really, really small. So again, I had, I built this like small world that I controlled, that was felt at least, um and going beyond that felt really overwhelming and scary. But once I pushed through that, and I've seen this in a lot of the people that we mentor through this ministry. Once you push through that, it's scary and overwhelming at first. But, but you learn how to navigate it, you then feel so much more free that you then realize like it's so much better to, you know, maybe learn how to, like you said, in a healthy way, mitigate some horrible risk, but allow for those appropriate risks in relationships. And that will lead you to this place where again, you feel free, you're able to not try to control everything but let things happen and adapt as they do. And um it, it's, yeah, there's so much we can say here but that freedom uh that you experience when you push through that fear, through that overwhelm. Um is, is incredible. Mhm. I have a fantastic example about that in my own life where uh I was at a, a seminar for a month and uh one of my mentors pulled me aside one day and said, Tanya, I just want to ask you something that I've been noticing. I noticed that you're one of the very first people to leave at the end of the evening activities. And I'm just curious about that because I had to walk about 20 minutes back to the dormitory where I was staying. And at first I thought it was just no big deal. Like why does it matter who leaves when or whatever? But as I chewed on it a bit, I realized, and I said to her, I said, well, if I am in control of when I leave, then I'm also in control of who I walk with. And I don't have to fear being left behind. And so she encouraged me or she challenged me. OK, for the rest of their time here, would you be willing to try an experiment to not be the first person to leave to actually wait and see if you will be left behind or not. And it was a small risk because if I got left behind, it was fine. I just walk home 20 minutes by myself. This, I was already doing that anyway. So I was just doing it a little bit earlier in the evening. And so I thought, OK, I can do that. I will see if this fear of, of being left behind is an actual fear or if it's just a perceived fear, is it based in reality or is it just my own thinking? And that I'm convinced that nobody will look out for me or invite me or whatever. And so I took her challenge up and sure enough as she predicted, I never got left behind. I always had someone noticing. I was still there. Hey ta you're welcome back. Let's go together. And it, it, it brought freedom just like you were saying that that actually some of the things that I'm afraid are gonna happen to me are not actually reality. They probably won't happen to me. But even if they did, they're not that big of a deal. And I just, yeah, something really changed for me. Um As a result of that observation from my friend and her challenge and then my experiment with whether or not I'd be left behind. Love that and maybe that's a challenge we can issue to everyone listening right now is, you know, if there's a small risks that you can take that the consequence, if things do go wrong isn't huge, like take those risks. Um I love the, the word experiment that you use. I think that's so helpful because it's not permanent. It's not a life sentence. It's something that you can just try out and, and if it doesn't go well, go a different route. So great advice there elsewhere you said that there's, it's important that we don't look to God kind of going back to the faith question. It's important that we don't look to God to kind of do all the work for us that we need to, we need to be putting in the work ourselves. Talk about that a little bit. I mean, there, it would be a really, it could be a really great conversation. You know, what's God's responsibility? What's my responsibility? Is it all God's fault? Is it all my fault? But I think one thing that I realized growing up with divorced parents, I often felt powerless as a child. I had to go to moms when she wanted, go to dad's. I had to do this. I had to do that. I didn't have a voice. I felt like nobody really, my opinion didn't matter to anybody. Uh, my choices could be, you know, negated just, you know, very easily and, and I realized that for much of my faith life, I, I thought God had that same view that he was just gonna do things so do things for me. He was gonna heal me or he was gonna give me a job or he was gonna give me a spouse or he was gonna, and as a result, I just always, I felt like I had no say in my life, I was just being pulled around by God and his whims, you know, often they were good but sometimes they didn't feel good. And I didn't know that I actually had this idea of agency. Like I can make choices. I have strength and power within me that my voice matters. So I think, yeah, for me, at least as a child of divorce, it was a real important thing for me to learn that, that my ideas, even if they're wrong, like are worth being heard by God and other people that I don't always just have to have the right answer. But that, that I have choices and that my choices will be respected. So I think that's what I'm coming to with like the faith thing and the God thing is that, of course, God wants a beautiful life for every person, but he's not just gonna shazam, it's not just gonna appear without me participating with him because that would make me again, just sort of a pawn being moved around by him. And I think that God wants more than that, you know, he wants people who actually can make choices and who can learn and grow and that have, have responsibility for their life, you know, not on their own and not God saying ha ha you made a bad choice. Look at you suffer now, which also I think sometimes God gets that, that put on him, but that's not the way that I've experienced. God. It's a collaboration. It's something that, you know, I think any healthy relationship is that way, like whether it's a friendship or whether it's, um you know, a marriage, it truly is a collaboration. It's not one person doing it. It's not, it's both of you together. And I remember growing up, I would see relationships like that where one person was way more interested in the other person than, like a guy was more interested in a girl than the other way around. And it was like everything was on the guy to build a relationship and the girl was like almost doing nothing because she didn't really want to be with him. And so um so I think in this and yeah, the relationships can turn unhealthy in that sense. But you're saying that yeah, it's, it's a collaboration. It's both ways. It's two ways. It's both people contributing, collaborating and that applies to a relationship with God to I heard this awesome quote from uh the financial guru Dave Ramsey. He uh he said that God feeds the birds, but he doesn't throw the worms in the nest. I think that's so true and helpful. It's like, yeah, God will provide for you. But like you're saying, we need to collaborate with him. We need to work alongside of him. We can't just wait for him to, you know, snap his fingers and fix everything and miracles do happen. Like I don't, I want to acknowledge that but uh that's not the norm, that's not what I think most of us can expect. And so we do need to again do it alongside of him. And uh and I think there's a lot of beauty in that because like you said that, that uh agency, that sense of healthy control that we have and that is uh makes us better, makes us stronger. Definitely, so good shifting gears a little bit. Um It's often difficult for people like us to talk about our experiences with our parents, divorce or separation or just, you know, really broken dysfunctional marriage. Why is that? And what's the solution to that problem? That's a great question. But I think it is so true. I remember when I started really thinking about my parents' divorce, I was really eager to hear from other people about their experience. And I would, as soon as I kind of feel like the divorced and separated parents, kids were kind of like living incognito, we're kind of hiding it. We're kind of like trying to be below the radar. And I remember having realizing I had a roommate for a year whose parents were divorced, but we never once talked about our parents or our family. And it so yeah, I guess just to say, I think we the I I don't always know why. I mean, I think there's the shame of what's wrong with me. There's the what if people reject me or think I have a bad family or look down on my parents because why couldn't they keep their marriage together? I think there's a, the fears of, um, if I start talking about it, it's gonna be really painful and I'm gonna have to acknowledge some of that or people are gonna think I'm damaged somehow. So then nobody will want to date me or be my friend or, yeah, I mean, those are some of the things that come to mind and in terms of how do we fix it. I don't know. I just think those of us who feel the, the courage and the strength or maybe are further down the road of kind of processing our experience. I think we just got to be courageous and talk about it. That's why I'm so thrilled for this invitation to be on this podcast to just say I'm, I want to talk about my story if it can help other people. But also because it helps me every time I can talk about what happened, I'm gaining some new insight into what I've been through, how it shaped me uh for good and for bad. And I think it's taking me further out of this place of, of shame or fear and isolation into more connection, which is really what I long for. So, yeah, those are a few thoughts. Yeah, I, I've seen all of those play out in my own life and the lives of the people that we serve and I think a few other things too that we've seen is it's you touch on this, like how it can be painful to talk about this topic. And, uh, I think there is kind of related to that, this comfort in the sense that we're just so used to the pain and the problems in our lives that we don't really think anything of them. And so, you know, we tend to just think, well, this is the way it's always been. Why would I give it any special attention? Why I don't that this is kind of my normal. And so it, you know, it might never even hit us that, oh, maybe we should get some help here, maybe we should talk about this. And I think as a culture especially, I know you talk about this, we've, you know, normalized divorce to such an extent that we tend, we don't think of it as a trauma for the Children. We think of it as like, oh, well, it's just kind of the shift. It's like your family just changes. That's it. Um, even though the research is very clear and if you listen to people who come from divorce, separated families, it's like, no, this is a very traumatic thing to go through for the far majority of them. But, but again, there's just a sense of like, well, this is how my life has always been. Why would I give this any special attention. That's one point. The other one I think too is that we love and care about our parents. We don't want to hurt them or harm them. Um, especially if things are really dramatic going through the divorce. Um, things are really dramatic. Maybe in the aftermath of it, there's been maybe just a lot of pain. We don't want to rock the boat, we don't want to hurt them and we might even be led to believe by well intentioned people often well intentioned people that, um, we should be happy that this is for the best, like that sort of gas lighting where it's like, you know, oh, you feel hurt? Well, you shouldn't be hurt. Your parents are happy, aren't you happy for your parents sort of thing? It's like, no, I can, I can feel hurt by this and still, you know, want the best for my parents. And so, so, yeah, I think those are a few other factors as well that make us just kind of like, not talk about it. Not want to rock the boat. Mhm. Yeah. I definitely, I mean, I resonate with both of those, with the one about it's so normal for us. I can definitely see that in my life and see how I kind of just become calloused to, like I had to become callous or I felt I had to become callous to the pain and just be like, yeah. Yeah, it's just that it's not how it is because nothing was going to change. I had no power to change that part of my life. So it was either accepted or suffer. So I just, yeah, and I couldn't acknowledge that how painful it was. So I just was like, yeah, it's not a big deal but you know what's helped me part of my healing. And I think it was a counselor who suggested this to me is I was 10 when my parents split up and I, I stayed with my dad, but my counselor suggested I, I take note of 10 year olds in my life. Like, did I know any 10 year olds? What were 10 year olds actually? Like, what, what, what was their capacity emotionally, you know, with doing their homework or, or caring for themselves? They, you know, could they take a bath or do their laundry or like, what was a 10 year old actually capable of and to try to look at them through the eyes of, wow, what if your parents just split up and you had to now take care of yourself and you had to have this emotional, you know, this really difficult emotional struggle. And so I, I did, I started looking at little 10 year olds and thinking, oh, they're, they're so small and they're so cute and they're so incapable, you know, there's, they need so much help and they, for them to lose one parent or to have their, you know, their parents' marriage break up and to be alone or rejected, abandoned in the way that, that they would be, that I was, that would be so hard. And through that I found the ability to have compassion on myself actually. And to go what, what I've experienced, Tanya, what you experienced was really terrible. It was really worthy of grief and sadness and not just something to be brushed aside. And so, yeah, so that was a, that was a real turning point for me and, and my ability to have compassion on myself and to kind of like let myself feel some of those feelings and have some of that process, some of that experience. Yeah. And so you can move on. I think that's an important part too. It's like, especially for people listening who just maybe they want to like throw up when they hear all this like self help stuff of like self love and grief and all that stuff which I get. I I'm kind of like that in some ways. But, but I think that the point is that so we don't stay where we are, we don't stay stuck that we can move on through life that we're not, you know, constantly dealing with these things. I know divorce is such an interesting trauma though because there are usually continual effects and continual difficulties and challenges that come from it. For example, you know, maybe you know, the divorce itself and everything that led up to, it was painful. But then in the aftermath, like we talked about, you have to deal with, you know, mom and dad being at your graduation, different life events, holidays, like you mentioned, uh things like that or, you know, maybe a situation where further down the line, your parents get sick and then it's like instead of their spouse taking care of them, you're the one who needs to take care of them in, in, in exaggerated role, right? So, so there's all these sorts of additional challenges that do come through. But the point of healing is not to stay stuck forever. It's to move beyond those things. And these tools that we're mentioning, of course, are some of them can continue to help us grow and become better, stronger people. But um but I think it's important for people, especially who kind of like are repulsed by this idea of like healing and working through trauma. Um to know that there is an end game, there is something that we're working towards. And uh and I love that you mentioned that tactic about, you know, kind of looking at the 10 year old that, that makes so much sense and it is, is really helpful because I think when we can have compassion, it might be easier for us to have compassion on other people than it is to have compassion on ourselves. And um I think, yeah, to move forward. I think it is that healthy. Wow. I've been through, you've been through some hard stuff and you, you're doing really well to be able to also look at it that way and to really take stock of how much we have grown or, you know, and how far we have come and, um, that we can do this. So I think it's both a pep talk and like a little cry session sometimes and they go hand in hand because, you know, we've been damaged or hurt by our parents um marriage, but that's not the only thing about us. Um But to deny, that is also not helpful because then you're back to the hiding parts of yourself, denying who you really are just trying to show the good stuff so that people will love you and, and that ends up being quite lonely. It's been lonely for me. Yeah, me too. No, I, I couldn't agree more with that and, and I love that mindset of uh, we're just, we're in training, we're continually developing, we're kind of becoming people. We're becoming the people that we hopefully want to be, that we're made to be um through all these experiences in life, through the pain, through the traumas, through the, the incredible growth through the, you know, like you said, the trajectory that we can see ourselves on that, that is like really, really helpful and we're not the good, just the good. We're not just the bad. We're both. And, um, and I think if you can, you know, kind of see that and accept that in yourself, um, you're going to be a lot more at peace when things go really well or things go really poorly and so, so much good stuff there. I just, towards the end of our conversation, I'm just curious, you touched on this already actually a bit. But do you have anything else to add? You know, what are some ways that, that you've seen divorce affects the way that people like us view um, marriage, family, life, home, belonging in, in general anything dad. Oh, I mean so much. But I think, I think the first thing to acknowledge is that divorce has impacted all of those things. And for me, at least every one of those things you mentioned marriage, home, family, they are all I'm looking at all of them through the lens of what I experienced. And so for me, it's kind of looking back into the past trying to understand my story is so that I can clean those glasses off and I can see not just what the terrible things are but what the beauty could be. You know, like people, most people from intact families find most of them find family a very positive term. But for me, family is kind of, I cringe even though I know I'm not supposed to, I know family is supposed to be amazing. And everyone's supposed to want to love to get together. I, I still have so much like inner turmoil when I think about family because it just reminds me of what I don't have, what I've lost, who's not there, who doesn't get along and um but having recently gotten married, I, I am trying to, to, to reframe how I see family that it's not only negative. Same with marriage, same with belongings, same with all of those things. So yeah, I think for me it's been just to acknowledge my experience has shaped all of those things. And if I'm not thinking about them, then they're just, I'm carrying what's I'm carrying my old way of thinking with me and it might be damaging or getting in the way of me having the things that I want, the connection, the family, the belonging. So yeah, I think it's all interconnected, right? And those expectations are key like researchers show uh talk about how if you want a great marriage, for example, um healthy expectations uh for your marriage are really, really important. That's one of the ingredients and one of the keys to having a great marriage. And so like you're saying, if we expect our spouse to cheat on us, if we expect our marriage to be full of conflict and drama, if we expect um eventually to be abandoned, then we'll certainly act in a way that anticipates that happening, which in a sort of backwards way then plays a role in bringing that about. And so this is serious, like this is not some neat little thought experience like, no, this if, if you expect that if you ignore the patterns in your own life, if you act out of those, it can maybe even unconscious expectations that can then lead you down a path that you don't want to go down and even consciously don't want to go out and you say, I never want to repeat what I saw, you know, in my parents' marriage, I never want to get divorced. Um So we really do need to adjust those things and that's why this is so serious. It's not just some cute little self help thing. It's like, no, if we want to live the lives that we long for, if we want to have the relationships that we long for, um we, we really need to dig in here and at least be aware so that we can develop the virtues and, you know, kind of work against those maybe tendencies that we've had in the past to the point where we can overcome them and again, build those virtues that then make it possible to have that beautiful relationship to learn to truly trust and be vulnerable to, yeah, just live life fully alive, not always being terrified and afraid of what might happen next. And this is why I think friendships community are so vital to growth in the story. That I told you about my mentor, challenging me and my kind of wrong thinking about my fear of abandonment. I never would have figured that out on my own or I don't, I don't think I would have figured that out. And if I had just had these walls around myself, I don't need anybody. I'm totally fine. Everything's good. She would never have had the chance to speak that into me and to encourage me. And so I think, um, what I find hopeful but also quite sobering is that those of us who need the support and connection of others like I do as a child of divorce often have things that get in the way, you know, the fears that get in the way. And so sometimes it feels like we're trapped by our own fear, you know. And so I really appreciate what you're saying about like there are ways forward but it's gonna take some courage and it's gonna take some vulnerability. Um, and some self honesty to go. How can I change the things that are no longer helping me? The self protection, the isolation, the jumping to conclusions, the assuming that I'm gonna be abandoned. Those might have helped me when I was 12 or 14. But at my age they're not actually helping me anymore. They're actually keeping me from what I want. So, yeah, it's important stuff. It's good stuff. It's hard but it's, it's so valuable, so worthwhile. Yeah. And we could say that maybe, maybe this is a little bit of an exaggeration, but growth only happens in relationship or in community. Perhaps another way to say it would be the biggest growth. The most substantial growth will only happen in community in relationship with other people, whether that's a mentor or a friend or you know, someone else in your life because that's what I've seen too, like on my own, I've been able to grow in some ways. But when I add in like my relationship with God, when I add in my friendships, when I add in my mentorships, and I add in my own marriage, it's like, yeah, that is where the biggest growth in my life. That's where the most healing has happened. Mhm Yeah. And that's where we can also give gifts to our friends and the people that we love by encouraging them, by asking them some of the hard questions and really listening to their answers by will being willing to sit with them in those places of pain or sadness or disappointment and like let them also chew on it so that they can move forward. So it's, it's not just about me, it's also about what do I have to offer, which, you know, it's really, it's a gift to be part of a community of friends and to so hopefully be part of the healing uh that we want in our own lives. Tanya, I've really appreciated the conversation. And before we close out, please tell us a little bit about your book and how people can get that and find you online. Yeah. So in 2017, I wrote a book called Come Home Laughing. Uh a novel for Adult Children of Divorce. And it's available on Amazon to search Tael lions or Come home Laughing. I really wanted to tell the story of Children of divorce and their adult Children of divorce and their experience. Um Some of the things that have really helped me uh learning about emotions, learning about grief, learning about trust. Um But tell it in a story format so that um that it's accessible and interesting and people hopefully relatable that in that book, there'll be some character that you can relate to if you grew up with divorced or separated parents. And then I'm also on Facebook and Instagram as Tanya Lyons author. So I love to, I try to post um you know, content that is helping people reflect on their experience and encouraging us to keep moving forward together. Thank you so much for being here again. I appreciate sharing your story and the wisdom you've gained over the years. I uh I know we're all better for it just in closing. I want to give you the final word. What words of encouragement would you give to someone who feels broken? You feels stuck in life because of their parents', divorce because of their broken family Yeah, to you, I would say the same things I would say to myself is what happened. It's significant. It's, it's terrible. It's worth being sad and upset about and yet it's not the only thing about you. It's not even the most important thing about you. And I would encourage you even as I encourage myself to, to find some people who can help you move forward so that you don't miss out on the beautiful life that is awaiting you and that the people who love you and people you love don't miss out on who you are. If you want to pick up Tanya's book, just click on the link in the show notes to get that. And if you come from a divorce or broken family, I have a question for you. How is your parents, divorce or your broken family affecting you today? It might be trickier to answer that than it seems. And if your answer is, I don't really know or you don't understand the depth of it, you're not alone, that's actually very common. But in the words of one therapist, when it comes to experiencing healing, naming how you've been harmed is about 70% of the battle. Our new assessment will help you name and diagnose your Brokenness. So you can heal it at its roots, not just treat the symptoms and build the life and relationships that you desire. So if you want to become the best version of yourself. You want to find the love, happiness and freedom that you long for and you want to avoid repeating the cycle of dysfunction and divorce. Then you need to heal. And the first step to healing is naming and diagnosing the wound to help do that. Take our free confidential and research based assessment. Just go to my broken family dot com, answer the questions there and then you'll view your results again. That's my broken family dot com. Or just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them and always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

#094: Are You Trying to Outrun Your Trauma?

How have you dealt with the trauma of your parents’ divorce or broken family? 

After enduring her parents’ divorce, her mom’s alcoholism, her dad’s absence, and her stepmom’s abuse, today’s guest tried to outrun her trauma through busyness, accomplishments, and perfectionism. 

Before long, she went from repressing her emotions and saying “I’m fine” to “I need help.” That began her healing, which we discuss, plus:

• How she doubted her ability to be a good wife and mother

• How she grew up faster than her peers from intact families, making it difficult to relate to them

• When are anxiety or depression drugs necessary and when are they used inappropriately?

Join the Course Waitlist

Take the My Broken Family Assessment

Share Your Story

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Her story

• Her email: alana1201@gmail.com

• How to heal from trauma and break the cycle of shame | Dr. Peter Attia

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you've experienced the trauma of your parents', divorce or your family falling apart. I have a question for you. How have you dealt with it? How have you dealt with it? In other words, what have you done in response to the trauma itself and the pain and the problems it's brought into your life. My guest today endured her parents' divorce, her mom's alcoholism, her dad's absence and even her stepmom's abuse. So what was her response? She tried to outrun her trauma through busines, through accomplishments and perfectionism and it worked for a while, but eventually it caught up with her. Now, thankfully, she went from repressing her emotions and saying, I'm fine to saying I need help. She then began to seek healing which we dive into. In this episode. We also discussed how she feared and doubted her ability to be a good wife and mother because she never saw that growing up how she felt like she grew up faster than her peers from intact families making it difficult to relate to them. We discuss situations where anxiety or depression, drugs are necessary in situations where they're used inappropriately. We talk about how authentic love is healing and why she's even grateful for all the challenges she's endured. And she even has a really beautiful message to her parents. Keep listening. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation or broken marriage so you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panelli. This is episode 94. If you found this podcast helpful in navigating the pain and the problems from your parents divorce and even finding healing. I'm thrilled to announce that we have a new resource that's going to help you even more. We'll be releasing two video courses. The first is all about trauma. It's titled Broken to Whole Tactics to Heal from your parents', divorce or broken marriage. And it answers what is trauma, how does trauma in general but also the trauma of your parents', divorce or dysfunctional family affect you again to the science, even the neurobiology of it. It's fascinating stuff. What can you do to heal from it? So you can avoid repeating that cycle in your own life. And so much more of the course is actually taught by a trauma therapist with over 15 years of experience helping people to heal from trauma. And the second course is all about how to confidently help someone from a divorce or broken family. It answers questions like what struggles do Children of divorce and dysfunction face. What should you say? Not say do and not do in order to help them, how do you start those difficult conversations? What if they seem fine? And there's some special tips for parents and so much more. And that course is actually taught by me. The content is based on a lot of research but also restored article that ranks top three on Google when someone searches a term, like how do I help a friend who's going through their parents divorce and that receives over 3000 views each month. So more details coming soon, especially that title of the second course and the official launch date. So stay tuned for that. And if you'd like to join the waitlist to get notified first and be given a special advanced access, just go to restored ministry dot com slash courses, again, restored ministry ministry, singular dot com slash courses or just click the link in the show notes. And by doing that, you also get a bonus on building healthy relationships and a strong marriage as a child of divorce who also experienced a traumatic stepparent situation. Alana spent much of her young adult life striving for perfection and success in all areas of life throughout her healing process. She earned a degree in secondary education from Penn State University and married the love of her life, Nick during their junior year of college, they currently live near Pittsburgh Pier where Alana works as a youth minister and outreach coordinator at her parish Alan and Nick are expecting their first baby soon and cannot be more excited to be parents. Now, a quick disclaimer, Alana is a Catholic Christian. So we talk a little about God and faith if you don't believe in God, this episode is still for you. I'm so glad that you're here. I know you're gonna relate a lot with Alana's story. Even if you were to skip or take out the God part, you're still going to benefit from this episode. So my challenge to you is just listen with an open mind. Also, Alana and I are obviously not doctors or psychologists or psychiatrists. So our discussion about taking drugs for anxiety and depression is not meant in any way to tell you what to do for your specific situation. So with that, let's dive in Alana. Welcome to the show. Thanks so much for doing this. Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here. I read your story on our blog and we'll make sure to link to that in the show notes. So if you could check that out as well, and I knew that, you know, we need to have you on the show. So it's great to have you. And so diving right in uh how old were you when your parents separated and divorced? So I was about either five or six uh at some point during kindergarten. And then I just remember things in my life kind of changing quickly after that. But honestly, when it comes to like the divorce itself, I don't really remember much. I remember being pulled into like my guidance counselor's office and then reading me this like divorcing Dinosaurs book and I'm like, what the heck is this? And then little did I know? Yeah. Ok. I've never, I've never heard of the divorced dinosaur book. Uh Do you have any memory of what? That's like, I'm curious. So my the guidance counselor's office was like, totally groovy like lava lamps everywhere, like beans tapestries. So I just remember being mesmerized by that and then being sit down with this like divorcing dinosaurs book and the kids' parents I think are going through a divorce and it's like a children's book that, you know, is used to help convey the idea of divorce to kids. Honestly, I just remember being distracted by the lava lamp but then afterwards I was like, oh, why was I pulled out of class individually? Like for that and just kind of being like confused, like why was this book being read to me? Yeah. No, it's, it's a sad scene for sure. And I think a lot of times, you know, the people who put resources like that together have good intentions, but it can totally miss the mark. You know, in a way what I've seen with a lot of those resources, they like try to normalize this divorce and try to make it seem like it's this, oh, it's just like a different phase of your family. It's like, no, actually your family is like, breaking apart and, and in some ways it's like dying and so trying to make a child, like, understand it. Like you'd make them understand how food grows or how, you know, where your grandma and grandpa live. Like things like that. It, it's not, not that easy. Yeah, I feel like that was definitely a big intention of like the authors of the book. And yeah, definitely looking back on that and reflecting on it, I remember being little and having like therapists or counselors say, you know, this is OK, this isn't your fault. And I'm like, OK, I get that but like why is it happening and why does it hurt so much? Just like you said, I feel like especially in today's culture, divorce or just like relationship issues in general are very normalized when really, when you look at it, it's like that's not how life and how relationships were meant to be. Yeah, so true. And I, I love the way you said that I might be adding a few words here. But it's like if it isn't a big deal, why does it hurt so much? Mhm And so as much as you're comfortable sharing, yeah. Take us deeper into that. Like what happens um in your family? Yeah. So at some point, I want to say either during kindergarten or the summer after, um, we spent, yeah, I think that summer after kindergarten, my mom and my younger brother and I, his name is Brendan. He's three years younger than me. We lived in our family friends like Den. Um, and then shortly after that, we got our own townhouse a few minutes away from, uh, where we had all lived previously. And then at that point I think we would, like, see our dad, like two nights a week and then every other weekend. And that was kind of the case for like most of my childhood up through, like high school things were like, ok, after they had split prior to them splitting, all I really remember was just arguing a lot about, I don't even know what I have one vivid memory of. I can't remember which parent but one of them, like, grabbed me, ran to the bathroom, locked the door while the other one's like pounding on the door. So kind of scary. Yeah, throughout childhood, uh, they just kind of stayed separated and I do kind of have to pat my parents on the back here a little bit in terms of after the divorce, the way the two of them interacted with each other for the most part when we were around was very respectable. Um, like they were civil with each other and I feel like they did for the most part prioritize my and like my brother's needs, which was great. Um I, yeah, I feel like a lot of that started to change though when my dad remarried. So he started dating this other lady, uh when I was in fifth or sixth grade. Um, and then they married when I was in seventh grade and at first my stepmom, you know, she was like fun taking me on shopping trips, getting my nails done and then turns out that was kind of a big cover for her being abusive. So she uh she has her own slew of traumas from her own parents and mental disorders and a very stressful job. And with her not taking care of that, she kind of like projected all of that onto my dad and me and my brother, she would like, prevent him from him coming to see us when we'd go to their house on the weekend. She would like, always have my dad be doing chores that like didn't really need to be done just to avoid him spending time with us. Even when I was like an older teenager, she wouldn't let me use anything in the kitchen. Like wasn't allowed to cook, wasn't allowed to like, really eat anything other than cereal. And just that like the entire period of time that she was in my life, I felt like I was walking on eggshells and like in my own feeble little teenage voice, I'm trying to voice this to my dad because I'm one trying to like, convince myself that, oh, this is normal. She's just a bit of an odd duck and she has been through a lot and try to like, convince myself that what she's doing is ok when it was not. So I feel like with that, I kind of internalized a lot of confusion, frustration, hurt pain because I mean, at the end of the day, it's like my dad's being taken away from me and with that around that time as well, my mom's dad had passed away and my mom had always kind of had issues with drinking. But I feel like that her dad's death really exacerbated that and she's been struggling with alcoholism. I mean, pretty much ever since the divorce. But especially since then. So with that as a young teenager in like middle school, I remember distinctly remembering and I went to like Catholic school my whole life and I really think it's because of that that now I can say like my faith is one of the biggest like, influences and most important things in my life. But I remember just having this like uns shaking belief that this is for a purpose and that all these things that I'm going through. Like there's a reason for it. Like it's either making me stronger or it's gonna help me with something in the future. I didn't know what, but I really think it was by the grace of God that he gave me that confidence despite, you know, being in such a hard time. So that kind of continued all throughout high school, all that stuff with my stepmom. And then my mom started dating someone else. I think my freshman or sophomore year of high school. Um, and he's nice gentleman. He's very fine, but still throughout high school I was very involved academically. Um, I was the captain of, like, the academic bowl and STEM team and on a travel field hockey team and like peer ministry. And I was the girl that like, did all the things that a lot. Yeah. But looking back on that, like since now that I'm almost finishing college, I realized that, oh, I kind of used all of those things to hide anything. I was feeling like, oh, if I'm busy, then I don't have to like, interact with my family or I don't have to like, dwell on these emotions because I'm just go, go, go all the time and then I don't have time to like, sit with my feelings. And I feel like honestly, my whole childhood up until I came to college, my emotions were just completely repressed and I feel like I let my identity be what I did. I think also. So my brother, when he was younger, he had a lot more needs and because he was two, when they got divorced, he needed a lot more attention emotionally and stuff. So I feel like just overall I was very independent, kind of left to my own devices and that just kind of went through my entire childhood and young adulthood. Yeah, that's it in a nutshell, I guess. Yeah, I know there's so much there and thanks for just your openness. And before we dive into, I have a few comments. But before we dive into further things too, I just want to say how impressed I am by you. Like I know a little bit about you and everyone will learn more about you in this interview. But it's beautiful to see given what you've described of what you've been through, of what your parents have struggled with and the ways in which you were, you know, just traumatized by the separation and the divorce and how, you know, you suffered through the abuse and just the other things that you dealt with in addition to all of that, then you are where you are today. That's impressive. And so I just want you to just to know that and I think that's so hopeful too for other people who may be young people who are in the midst of it right now. And they think like, I feel like I can never get through this or never move on in life. And uh it's beautiful to see that, that you're doing that. So, uh so well done. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. Of course, what you said about kind of busyness that relates to me a lot. Maybe that's just my personality type but I, you know, try to pack my schedule and just like, I love, yeah, just being productive and doing all that. And, like, you know, in high school too and even college for me it was like, sports and trying to accomplish different things and do well there and, and I, like you said, I think there's something, you know, good about it but of course, um, it can be a coping mechanism and it certainly was for me kind of just hiding from my pain and not wanting to face it. And I've heard people use the analogy when it comes to like repressed emotions. Like you mentioned that all that grief that we kind of are like running from. It's almost like a swimmer in the water with like imagine a woman swimming in water with really long hair and it's almost like that hair is like dragging behind her for this analogy. And, um, it won't that, that like long yucky, like dark hair won't catch up with her unless she stops. So she keeps swimming in a way she'll feel safe. But when she stops, it's like, oh, watch out. And so, um, I'm so glad that you've like, you know, dug into that too because people can go years and years and years much longer than, you know, much older than you. And I are even right now. Um, and never really address this stuff and it's just, that really breaks my heart. So it's, um, it's awesome to see that. You know, you've, you've begun that work and even made progress. But I remember my daughter Lucy right now, she like, is going through this phase where she loves watching The Sound of Music. So she's like, all about it. And to those of you who don't know that movie, it's like a movie from, I think it came out in the sixties. And um it's a musical and it's, uh you know, it's a little older now, but it was, it was a great movie, but she just loves the music and everything. And um, so we watched it like a million times recently and uh one of the lines in the movie is um activity suggests a life filled with purpose and I think that's so true. I think that's a lot of times how I felt is almost like this thing where if I'm really busy then I, I feel important. I feel significant. I feel like um people will respect me. And so that's another component to that busines as well. So I can relate a lot on that front. But um man, you went through, through so much and um I uh yeah, again, appreciate you being so vulnerable. So, so open to that before I hop on hop further. Anything else you want to say about what happened? Well, I guess just to comment on some things you mentioned one sound of music would recommend Love that. And two. Yeah, I think the analogy of the woman swimming in the water is very accurate. I've never really heard of that before, but at least for me, like, you know, living in, you know, my parents' houses up until I was 18 and then I went off to college and it wasn't until I kind of had that quote unquote stop in college where I had, I think the first opportunity in my life to really be introspective and think about, you know, my upbringing because this was like the first time I'm actually living on my own. And it really took that for me to realize that oh, I had been through really difficult things and that was kind of the catalyst for me to start like getting help and actually starting my healing process. Beautiful. No, that makes so much sense. And I think it's a good lesson to everyone listening, especially who is um behind you on the path, who hasn't gotten to that point yet if they're still, you know, swimming, if they're still running, kind of escaping those things. Um, at a point, it can get really difficult. I remember in college for me too, even high school. But college for me as well where like I just, I, I was like, experience a lot of messy emotions is like the best way I could put it into words at the time. It was like I just felt super broken. I couldn't even tell you like why or what was going on. I knew it was related to just a lot of, you know what I had gone through in my family, all that trauma. Um But I didn't fully understand it. So, um I think if you know that's coming, I think it is really helpful and then you can kind of not be surprised when that those struggles happen and then you can know, ok, I'm gonna need some help with this. And I'm not aware are strange for experiencing this. Given the difficult things I've been through, given the trauma, it's kind of to be expected. It's like if you break your ankle, you know, and then you heal it and go through therapy and then you start running again. It's like if you try to run a marathon, you might, you know, feel some pain. That's, that's normal. Yeah. No, I definitely agree with all of that. And I think at least for me, it came with like two sides of the same coin. Like one, a lot of freedom, a lot of freedom to finally, like, be myself and live and just have like a routine that I wanted where I wasn't constrained by, you know, all the happenings between going from one house to another factory and like all these other family things. Um, but two, I think with that freedom came a lot of reflection on, oh, why is it that I finally feel so happy being by myself. And I think a lot of hard emotions with that. And I think with that transition to college, like, one of, one of the first things that I did when arriving um was get involved with my campuses, Newman Center. And I feel like, honestly, that was where I really started to find like the friends and the people who one brought me closer to Christ. But two actually, like, sat with me with my feelings that like, I didn't even know I had and it's those friends that more than anything probably. And my now husband that we, we met at the Newman Center. But um it's those people who really have changed my life and helped me the most through this whole healing process so good. I'm excited to dig into that more as well. Was there anything else you wanted to add about kind of how your parents divorce, how their broken marriage um, affected you? I think like, one of the biggest things I guess was this fear that I had that I want to know how to be a good wife or a good mom one day. Quite honestly, I think that was like the biggest thing I was afraid of from probably all of my teenage years, just like I'm not gonna know how to manage a household or cook dinner properly or take care of kids or have a good happy holy relationship with my spouse just because, like I had never seen it. Like I had no idea what that looked like. Not only that, but you'd look to TV, you look to many other relationships, even, like my parents friends had struggling relationships or my friend's parents had struggling relationships and my parents' friends. But it's like, it's very hard to see good examples of what that looks like. Um, and I think from like a young teenager, I'm like, how do I do this in the future? And it wasn't until I really one met my now husband and two saw his parents. Um, and the good example that they had that I kind of understood that, but no, that fear definitely kept me back from. I feel like a lot of things like I was very high, like, hid myself a lot in a lot of ways. Um, and then also in high school, I feel like it led me to seek out a lot of relationships with other boys that weren't necessarily fruitful. I had two shorter relationships in like my sophomore year of high school and then another boy and I dated for nearly two years, my junior and senior year and at the time I was like, oh my gosh, we're gonna get married like he's a good Catholic. Um And yet, like, in retrospect a lot, like both of us used each other for, um, our like, emotional needs for attention. Um, it led to like, some unchased things between us and just a lot of use. Um, I think because we were both just yearning for that, like, love and affection and like, affirmation that neither of us were getting from our parents. And yeah, once I kind of like, realized that it was a very hard pill to swallow to realize that this is how my parents' divorce was, like, actually affecting me because I think up until that point I had convinced myself like, oh no, they're fine. I'm fine. I'm a big girl. Like it doesn't affect me. And then once I really, like, let myself consider that for a second, I was like, oh, no, this actually affects me a lot more than I think it does totally. And so many of us have had that experience where like we're going through life and like, I, I think I'm good, like, I, I don't think it really affected me much and then it kind of hit you in the face, especially the trend we've seen and you've probably seen this in the podcast is relationships. Like that's usually the thing that's like, man, I feel lost. I don't know what I'm doing or I'm just like, terrified of repeating what my parents had and I certainly don't want that. And, um, I know when it came to dating for me touching on what you just said, um, I was so scared like I was, I was just freaked out. I was like, I don't know how to go about this. I am just afraid the person is like going to abandon me because I, you know, didn't want to repeat what I saw in my parents' marriage and my own marriage. But also I didn't want to repeat that feeling, that experience of abandonment and rejection that I experienced when my parents separated. And so all of that just felt so scary and so risky that it was like, it's better maybe just play it safe and just not go down this route and kind of give up on love and relationships. And, um, what happens in that case, like you said, so well, and I experienced this too is if we give up on love and relationships, we just settle for the counterfeit usually. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. No, I definitely agree with that. Yeah. And, and, and that never satisfies. So then we have to go deeper into that and look for more and more and more. So, I'm, I'm right there with you. You mentioned your husband's parents. I want to stay there for a second. Uh What have you learned from them? I'm just curious because there's a lot of people who find themselves in that same spot that you and I were in where it's like, yeah, I'm scared. I don't know how to do this. Um, but then again, one of the trends we've seen is when you have those good marriages in your life. That can be a beautiful example and give you hope. Um, it goes really far. So I'm curious in particular for you from your parent, um, husband's parents or from other couples you knew? Like, what did you learn? Yeah. So, I guess a little bit of context about my husband before jumping into his parents, but we met my freshman year of college and then got married. When was it in the middle of our junior year? And we're just finishing up or yeah, about to graduate after about a year and a half of marriage and with all that. So, especially during the COVID pandemic. Uh, since all of our classes were online, uh, we would kind of every couple weeks move back and forth between staying with his parents and staying with mine and his parents. Uh, his whole family is like very devout Catholic. Uh, he has two older sisters and a younger brother and his parents are genuinely like the most loving, caring, selfless people that I know. Um, they have been married, I wanna say 38 years this year. And you can just tell them like the way they treat each other, the way they treat their kids and their grandkids, they truly, truly respect each other and want what's best for the other person after I had gotten to know them for or a little bit. I had learned that there was a point where they actually almost got a divorce themselves and there were some really rough financial things going on and they, they actually did plan to divorce once all their kids were 18 and out of the house, which I mean, I thought was impressive that they would still stay together despite practically hating each other just for the sake of their Children. Like I'm, I'm getting choked up thinking about that, but just the sacrifices that they were willing to make for the sake of their kids blows my mind. And yet with that, like they say, constantly, you know, their relationship is so much stronger now that they have been through that than, you know, than it ever was before going through such a challenge. And I think it's, it's just really, really admirable. Wow, that is super impressive. And I'd be so curious to learn from them too. Maybe we'll have to get them on the podcast. But yeah, I, and the more I learn about marriage and hear from couples who are like way smarter than, you know, me and the more I realize like those sorts of struggles and kind of getting to that point where you want to quit are pretty normal in a marriage. Some people are scandalized by that because they think marriage is going to be like this fairy tale. But, um I think it, again, it's helpful if you can kind of expect like, yeah, at some point, things are going to get harder than they are. Now and I might want to quit. I might want to walk away and I think that's really where, that's really where it takes a lot of like virtue, a lot of strength and God's grace to, to keep going and what they experience too. Um, I don't have the research in front of me, but there's a lot of research that says if you, if you push through those hard times, if you make those sacrifices, of course, with the exception that there's not like abuse or things like, you know, you might get killed by your thoughts or whatever like that, then you need to get to safety, of course. But if you can push through those difficult times, those annoyances, those frustrations, those, you know, even like you said, hitting each other, perhaps, um the majority of the time your marriage will actually improve like they saw and, and that's like really hopeful and beautiful. So a lot of people don't hear that. And again, I don't have the research performing sorry guys. But I think it's really important to hear because those struggles, they're inevitable. Yeah, definitely. And even just anecdotally, like my mother-in-law has said, she like so many of her sisters and in-laws and her friends and their marriages have had very severe struggles. Um And yet with all of them, the ones that have stuck together through that they're so much happier, so much stronger, so much more devoted to each other after going through that when Nick and I were doing our marriage prep and like pre K stuff. Our sponsor couple detailed some of the struggle that they went through and I, we both look at them as like just this wonderful epitome of a good Catholic couple and Catholic family and to know that they chose to get through those struggles together and to choose each other over and over again and to choose their kids over their own, like, feelings is very admirable to see. And I think for a while it was hurtful, like, having known that, that in marriage and in relationships, it is a choice that we can make to stick it out through those hard times. Um, I feel like coming to that realization led to some resentment with my own parents for, for a bit, just like, why, why couldn't they choose to seek help? Why couldn't they, um, choose to consider me and my brother a little bit more? Um, and how their decisions might affect us. I've since, like, worked past that. But I think recognizing the power of choice and the ability to persevere is very, very impressive. Yeah. No, I agree. And we, we champion that in other areas of life a ton. Right. You know, it's like in school or career or sports or, you know, staying fit, whatever we don't tell people, oh, just quit and go try something else. It's like, no, we, we tell them, like, push through like, persevere, be strong, like all that stuff and we need more of that within our, within marriage, just for sure. So, I, I definitely agree with what you're saying. Yeah. Was there anything else? I guess you've learned, you learned from them in particular that was kind of transformative for you, like, aside from just their whole story overall. Yeah, I guess speaking of my father-in-law in particular, so the issue that they had led him to have to leave his job and kind of leave his whole entire field that he had worked in for years. And as a result, he picked up his sister's dog walking business. Mind you, he hates dogs. Um, but it, it was the job that he could get at the time. And since then, I mean, he continues every single day of the year, like holidays, weekends, kids', birthdays, everything he goes out there and he walks these dogs and as much as he hates it, he does it every single day without any complaining whatsoever because he knows he's providing for his family and those that he loves. I mean, you'll get the old, old like, oh, out to go, like pick up some more dog poop again and like humorous things, but never once wants a genuine complaint. And I feel like that that is just such a gift that he provides to his family. And I, I really admire him for that. And I know my husband does and all of his kids do as well. So it's very impressive. No, that's so impressive. And I, I think that what you're getting at, like this ability to sacrifice, which we can boil it down to like self mastery. Right. That's the core ingredient to a beautiful marriage. That's it. Like, like, obviously there's other things too. But I think at its core and, or the foundation we can say is like, if you have that basic virtue, if you have that self mastery, that ability to like, deny yourself to do what's best for the people that you love. You're going to get way further than doing what the culture really suggests, which is like, we'll go with your feelings or do whatever you want. Um That's just going to be a recipe for disaster. Yeah, definitely. And like throwing it back to my high school theology class to love is to will the good of the other. And that's not to just want to do what's best for the other people, but it's to make those sacrifices when it's hard and to actually get out there and do the things that are better for the other person, even if it's not what you want. And yeah, just like you said, I feel like that is when it really comes down to it, that is what makes or breaks a relationship so good. Staying on the theme of relationships you already mentioned, you know, your relationship and in high school and some other things. Was there anything else you would add in terms of how your parents divorce all the dysfunction at home, impacted your ability to relate with other people, especially in your dating relationships and now your marriage. Yeah. Well, I'd say kind of detailed all the dating relationship stuff, but socially, just as an elementary, middle, high school student, I felt it difficult to just relate to my peers in general. I felt that I grew up a lot more quickly than the other kids around me. And because of that, I couldn't quite relate to them and like that they could relate to each other. I also just went to a very small school and middle school girls can get very clicky. So I feel like already that like lack of connection combined with all that just made socialization a bit difficult up until high school when things got a bit better. But yeah, it took a lot of like kind of introspection to kind of like reflect and realize that. And then once I did things started to make a lot more sense when it comes to my current relationship. Now with my husband, honestly, I gotta say that was one of the biggest things that helped me, one realize how affected I was by my parents' divorce and two helped me start my like healing process. We started dating honestly, just a couple weeks into my freshman year of college. Um So as I was going through this big life change, um and all these other, just like subconscious emotional changes, um I also started to have panic attacks out of nowhere right around this time. And it was really nick, who one helped me through that. Like during my first panic attack, my first instinct was to call him and we weren't even dating yet, but my first instinct was to call him and he ran half a mile across campus to come get me. So if that's not dedication, I don't know what it is. But, but he would, even if he didn't quite understand why I was feeling the things I was feeling because his home life growing up was drastically different than mine without fail. He took the time to sit with me and my emotions help me process them because I never processed them before. He helped me understand what it was. I was truly looking for in a relationship. I had kind of come to that realization just before meeting him. But he was kind of like the actualization of that. But he has just provided such a safe haven and such a good rock for me as I've been going through this journey the past like four years now and I'm still going through it. But just without fail, he never fails to show up and help me with whatever it is I'm going through and he's patient and he's kind and he's loving in just so many different ways. And one, I don't think I'd be the person I am without my parents' divorce. But two, I don't think I'd be the person I am without him as well. Beautiful. Wow. Sounds like an incredible man. And thanks for sharing all that. Yeah, I think it's again so hopeful too, especially to people who maybe checked out and given up on love and relationships all together because it is rough in the dating world. Like I'm glad I'm not dating today. I'm sorry to all of you out there who are like, it's rough out there. But knowing that there's good men like your, your husband is super hopeful. And I love the point like underneath the point that you're making, it's just like this idea that like love can be healing, incredibly healing. And, and I found that too, whether it was in my friendships or, you know, my dating relationship, even like I was able to date really great girls, like incredibly like virtuous, beautiful women and uh and my wife included. And uh it can be incredibly healing. And I think when we look at our Brokenness, our wounds, the trauma we've endured. I learned this from Dr Bob Sheets, like at the root of almost every wound is a deprivation of love or a distortion of love. And so naturally, it follows that he, you know, to heal those wounds, we need authentic love. And so that's what you're experiencing, which is really, really beautiful. And, you know, you can experience that again in your friendships and your relationship with God, perhaps even in your relationship with your parents if, if those relationships are healed in time. Um And, but yeah, in, in a marriage for sure. So it's really, really beautiful to, to see that, that, that love can be healing, that love can be. Um it can, it can transform you and not, not in the sense that you know, your husband's your savior, but in the sense that he can, you know, see the Brokenness, see the wound, see the messiness, see the imperfections that you have and love you in spite of them. And perhaps even because of them, those moments in my life are like where people have been like seeing how broken I am and they still love me that, that in itself was just like healing. Yeah. No, I totally agree with all that Joey. And I think especially as like a young woman in today's society, it can be just in general, hard to think that there are good quality men out there who actually want to take care of you and love you for who you are. Um and not just for what you are and taking the time to really seek out just high quality people for friends in general, but especially in a dating partner or a spouse, it's definitely worth the wait can agree more when it comes to healing and, you know, kind of navigating the pain and the problems that you dealt with in healthy ways. You mentioned some of the unhealthy ways. Um What were a few things that again really helped you heal and really helped you cope or navigate those things in addition to what you already mentioned? Yeah, ironically, the COVID pandemic I think was really helpful with um all the time, you know, spending time by myself. Um and especially with Nick and his family. I think that was a very good opportunity that came out of such a dark time that for everyone. But I think also seeking out therapy and good therapy has been extremely helpful. So shortly after we got married, so I, I had been struggling with my mental health um with anxiety and depression for, I mean, I wanna say years, but I didn't like throughout my childhood, but I don't think I realized that it affected me that much until right around when COVID hit. So about a year ago was when I started seeing a therapist mostly for just like my mental health because that's what I thought it was. I was like, oh, I'm just anxious from, you know, not seeing a lot of people because of COVID and I'm depressed because I can't get out and I'm a huge extrovert and I was like, it got to the point that I'm doing like, I'm exercising, sleeping, right, doing all the things that should help alleviate that. And the fact that I was still feeling these awful things told me that, hey, I should probably seek some help. So I did originally just for mental health in general. And then with that therapy, we kind of realized that no, a lot of this actually ties back to my parents' divorce and what I went through and how that made me feel how much of a perfectionist made me become, how much it made me repress my emotions, how much it made me like, put my self worth and like the things I did because that's when I would get attention from my parents if I like, got a trophy or whatever. And all of like the behaviors that my parents had when I was living with them really manifested themselves in how I viewed myself. And thanks to a good therapist that I've seen. And then also another incredible Catholic therapist that my mom and now my mom and I are currently seeing now. I feel like both of that, both of them have helped me just heal and or at least have the ability to heal with myself. I think at least for me, I'm like, being so introspective, just simply taking the time to think about things has been very helpful for me. But you can only really do that effectively if you know what to look for. And it was these wonderful therapists that I had that I think actually helped me with that and I, I feel like I got lucky with just like getting two great therapists right off the bat. But I remember in high school I also wanted to seek out a therapist and I tried three different ones and we just didn't click at all. Um, so if anyone is considering therapy, I definitely consider you to keep looking until you do find someone that you connect with. Um, and especially if you're a practicing Catholic, seeking out Catholic therapists. I think there's a website called like my catholic therapist dot com. And I, I definitely recommend that and I feel like that other than Nick is the biggest reason that I've moved through all of my emotions and everything as well as I have beautiful and I think your story of kind of experiencing symptoms and just like knowing the symptoms where it's like, well, I'm sad a lot. I'm depressed. I'm anxious a lot. I'm having these panic attacks, especially when you get to that point. Um, I think that's usually where people realize like, I need some help. And thankfully you sought it out a lot of times people don't and they just kind of like, find other ways to deal with it. A lot of times they're unhealthy ways, whether it's drinking or, you know, partying or sleeping around or binging on so many different things. So, no, that, that's beautiful that you sort it out. And then I'm glad that you had, you know, a therapist who was competent enough to see like these are symptoms of some root cause they're not, you know, the root cause in and of itself. Because what I've seen a lot and this is like one critique I have of the psych world and I know a lot of people have this critique too is that so often we just manage symptoms, we don't get to the root. And so that's where especially in the world of psychiatry, I've heard psychiatrists come out and say like our profession is failing people in a lot of ways because we just manage symptoms. And then we, they, especially in psychiatry, they do it with pills, you know, with medicine and I'm not, I'm not against medicine. I think there's a place for it, but it needs to be more in depth and it needs to be used more carefully than just like, oh, you're sad. Here's a pill that will make you not feel sad. It's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, why are they so sad? Like what's at the root of that? Is there some sort of trauma, is there, you know, something else going on in their life? And so um so that's beautiful that you had someone who was able to point to that and it sounds like that's been effective like it's been helping you as well. Is that still as much of a struggle now? Or have you been able to, um, kind of find some relief from the, even those symptoms as well. Yeah, I'd say I started seeking therapy a little over a year ago and then soon after that, um, started taking an anti anxiety medication because at least physiologically for me, I'm taking care of my body doing all the like physical things that I need to and yet I'm still like unable to breathe, unable to sleep properly. So, for me, having a medicine was extremely, extremely helpful for me. But I think one of the great things was that both my therapist and my um psychiatrist suggested that I start taking medicine under the assumption that this is temporary just to get you back to a baseline, um where, you know, you're not shaking like a dog every 10 seconds. Um So it's like a gateway to get me to the point where I am able to take care of myself. And that's what it has been like. I, I'm no longer taking the medication and I'm no longer seeing that original therapist that helped me get on that medication. But what they did both with therapy and with medication was give me the tools and get me stable enough so that I could help myself in other ways and let other people in my life help me in other ways. Um But no, I definitely, I definitely agree. And I think in today's society one, it's almost like cool to need antidepressants or something I student teach middle schoolers right now. And they're constantly talking about how, oh, yes. I'm like going to therapy and I'm, I'm very glad that they're like getting help that they need. But at the same time I feel like today's culture glamorizes that when in reality, like you said, medication should not be the end all, be all. Like you can't treat the symptoms, you need to treat the root cause. And I'm very thankful that I've had people in my life to help me with that. Totally. Yeah. No, thanks for sharing that. And I'm so glad that, you know, your therapist and everyone treating you like they took a comprehensive approach. And that's what I was trying to get at when I'm talking about medicine. I don't want anyone to think that I'm like against, you know, like in your case, taking the medicine you needed to take like that, it can be such a good thing and so helpful. I know people right now who, you know, without the medication that they are on it would, they would really, really struggle. And so there's a point to it and I love the temporary piece. I think that's always ideal if you, if that could be the case where it's like we're using this as a tool to get me to a better place where I don't need it anymore. I'm really glad medication exists. Like I've gotten a few surgeries in my life. Nothing major, but I'm really glad they're, you know, that I had medicine to, like, manage the pain. It would have been really miserable if I didn't have that medicine. And, you know, again, when people are in like really rough spots, it can be something that can be very effective. No, no argument there. Um, but yeah, I agree with you too. It's sad to see it as like kind of this blanket approach. And we'll, we'll link to this um interview Dr Peter Attia is a popular doctor who has a podcast and he talks a little bit about this, but he brought on this um uh from what I can tell, like a renowned psychiatrist who practices in New York City. And uh it was really from him that I learned more about his critiques of his own field of psychiatry and how he was saying, you know, that again, he wasn't like saying that the medication is bad in and of itself. But the way that it's often being used is like kind of lazy. It's like, oh, we're just gonna use it as a blanket to cover this problem. We're not actually getting to the root cause. But if it's used as a component as a plan as a part of a, you know, a more comprehensive approach to, to treat someone and help them to, to feel whole again, then uh Yeah, that's great. But the other way can often, what I've seen is actually it leads someone deeper down a hole because it's not, you know, solving what's underneath the surface. So, I'm so glad that, um, you have those competent people in your life who are helping you. And it makes, makes total sense to me. Yeah, totally though. You know, you, I'm sure your work in progress. Um, how have you've seen yourself grow and change and transform over the years from, you know, where you were to where you are today? I laugh because I feel like my 14, 15 year old self would not have or could not have imagined my life being what it is right now. And yet I feel like it's, it's taken the most beautiful and wonderful twists and turns away from what younger me thought. So while in high school, um you know, as I said, I was like the go getter, the like captain of everything, doing all the things. And when I came into college, uh I was originally going to major in biochemistry and I wanted to like go to grad school, get my phd do cancer research, like get a Nobel Prize one day like that. I mean, bit ambitious, but that's what I thought I wanted to do. And it wasn't until I really started this like healing process and all that where I really reflected on. Oh, what does God actually want me to do with my life? Because I thought for the longest time, oh, he's given me you know, this intellect I should use it. But once I kind of like, let him in and try to listen more to what he wanted me to do. He had led me to study secondary education in sciences. So in a few weeks I'll be graduating to be a middle and high school science teacher, which is very exciting. Congratulations. Thank you. So I feel like with that, that was a huge gift from God to one. Still let me like follow my passion for science and my love of that. But also to be in a spot where I can be a mentor to these younger kids, uh especially when they were the age and perhaps going through the things that I went through and to use more of my like empathetic side that I didn't know I had in a career is wonderful. I mean, in addition to that getting married at 21 in college is not necessarily common these days, but oh my gosh, my marriage has been the best thing that has happened in my life. And again, definitely would not have expected that a few years ago. But now being married to Nick almost a year and a half now has been wonderful and we have our first little one on the way. Uh We're expecting this fall so very, very excited for that. And I think, I think just the biggest thing in general is how my desires have shifted. Um since since this whole healing process, um like before, it used to be so outward focused again, doing all the things, getting all the recognition and now it's been so much more focused on quote unquote what really matters, um which to me is family and teaching, you know, our future Children to seek out Christ as a Catholic. After graduation, I'll be working as a youth minister and kind of like outreach coordinator at my parish, which again, not something I would have ever thought I was gonna do. And yet I feel so fulfilled doing that and so content in a way that I didn't even think was possible. Like I am so excited to work for my church to be a mom to raise a family when just like five or six years ago, I almost didn't see that as a possibility for myself. Given my circumstances growing up, I think in general also when it comes to my parents, I'm a lot closer with my dad now. So he and my stepmom, uh they've been separated for, I think two years at this point, but they're getting a divorce now. And as tragic as that is, um it's also relieving that my dad is getting away from a toxic relationship and with that freedom, he's been able to connect a lot more with me and my brother. Um So it's good to kind of have him back. Um And with my mom, we've had a lot more family difficulties with her, me and my brother as of late. But with those difficulties, we've started going to therapy. At least my mom and I have and again, as difficult and painful as that process has been, it has been pretty healing and I've seen her grow a lot deeper in her faith as well. So it's been, it's been very good to see that. And I think there's still a long way to go in terms of like my healing, the way I think about things and my interactions with my parents. But I feel like I can confidently say, you know, after these like four years of healing and like, I don't wanna say soul searching, but like um seeking out help and letting others into my life to help me with that, we're on like a permanent upward trend and things are really good and it's good to say that. Yeah, beautiful. Thanks for sharing all that. I appreciate again, your vulnerability and congrats on the baby. That's so exciting. Um Just being a dad is my, pretty much my favorite thing in the world, if not my favorite thing in the world. So I'm so excited for, for both of you. And it's amazing to see the growth that you've had in your life. And yeah, thinking back to who you were and where you could have ended up to. That's always a humbling thing for me to think of in life. It's like, man, I could have ended up in a really bad spot. Um, I'm not saying my life is perfect or that there's no struggles, but it's like, man, life could have been really sad and scary. Um, so I'm really grateful that that you, you know, have found that path and have followed it and are still on it. So, really, really beautiful before we close out. I'm just curious if your parents were listening right now. Yeah. Is there anything that you would want to say to them? Anything that you would want them to know? That is a tough question. I guess if they were listening, I'd want them to know that I'm not mad at them. I'm not upset with them. Um, like I don't hold any resentment because I know that is a very common feeling amongst, you know, adult Children whose parents were divorced and not that that is a wrong thing to feel or a bad thing to feel. But I'd love for my parents to know that I still love them. And I know that, uh despite all that I went through, despite their decisions, I still know that they did everything with the intention of loving me and loving my brother. And I think also that as kind of hard this is to say, I'm very thankful for what I've been through. As painful as it was. I would do it all over again if it meant me still being the person that I am today. I've had the opportunity to kind of like, share my experiences um with some of my friends as there is, their parents were getting divorced and they were going through messy relationships themselves and things like that. And I truly think that's just the biggest, like testimony of how God uses everything and he doesn't give us things that he doesn't have a purpose for. So for me, I found a lot of comfort in that and I'd love for my parents to know that. Wow, good stuff. Yeah. Difficult question but beautiful answer. Um If people want to contact you, what's the best way for them to do that? Yeah, I'd say by email would be great. Um My email is my name Alana A L A N A 1201 at gmail dot com. And yeah, feel free to reach out. I'd love to talk. Awesome. It's been so good having you. Um 22 final questions. One is um I know you found uh restored helpful. I'm just curious like, yeah, how is restored? Help to you? Um I'll start there and then one final question. Yeah. Um I think the biggest thing, well, one I actually found restored when looking at resources for my friend whose parents were getting a divorce and reading all of these stories and hearing from so many people who went through similar situations that I did simply knowing that I'm not alone I think is just the biggest thing, knowing that I'm not the only one with the feelings that I have um with the concerns that I have with the struggles that I have gone through. Um knowing that there are other people who can relate to me, I think is the biggest thing. And I think that was like the biggest thing that I lacked growing up. Like none of my friends could understand what I went through. No other adults. I felt truly quote unquote, got me and restored, I think because just been such a big blessing in creating that community and creating that connection uh between people when I feel like this is such an un unrecognized issue and unrecognized trauma that so many people um experience and I feel like restored has just been an incredible, incredible resource to just connect people and definitely make me feel not alone, such an honor to serve you. Thank you for um you know, making use of the resources that we have and I'm so glad they've been been helpful. Um Yeah, you're the reason we do it. We want to help you and help your family and help everyone like me who's been through this trauma that you, you, you said, well, it's like it's not treated as a trauma, it's not talked about as a trauma, but it certainly is a trauma and there's millions actually sorry, correction, tens of millions of people who've been through this and don't get the help that they need and deserve and that's wrong. And so we're, we're changing that. So thank you for um for being a part of that coming on the show and in closing, I just wanna give you the final word. What words of encouragement. What advice would you give to someone who, who feels really stuck, who feels broken in life right now because of that trauma of going through their parents, divorce or dysfunction at home. Yeah. Well, real quick, I'd love to just thank you Joey and all the work you and your team do to provide restored ministries. It really is incredible. And I guess any words of advice I've had is that you are not defined by the experiences you had because of your parents. Like we, we go through things, we grow through things and yes, we can be very impacted and shaped by the very difficult things that, you know, life throws at us. And yet even if you feel broken, like I certainly did, I felt like I'd be a failure in any future relationships. I felt like just so many things were scary and I felt like I couldn't do things because of my experiences with divorced parents and yet that doesn't go to waste. That doesn't, that doesn't hold you back. Um And at least for me as a Catholic, God doesn't give us situations that he doesn't equip us to handle. And I feel like relying on God through that and I feel like he gave me a particular grace to trust him on that has been very comforting and healing. But I'd say, regardless of, you know, your belief system or not, every challenge is an opportunity to grow and to use that knowledge for the better. And even if like, you don't understand it, now, there's certainly a way that you can transform that pain and that suffering and those hurt feelings into a way to help yourself and to help others in the future. There's so many good lessons in Alana's story, but there's one that actually hit me that we didn't discuss much and I'll share that in a second. But first, if you come from a divorce or broken family, how is your parents divorce or your broken family affecting you today? It might be trickier to answer that question than it seems. And if your answer is, I don't really know or you don't understand the depth of it, you're actually not alone. That's a very common. But in the words of one therapist, when it comes to experiencing healing, naming how you've been harmed is about 70% of the battle. Our new assessment will help you name and diagnose your Brokenness. So you can heal it at its roots, not just treat the symptoms and build the life and relationships that you desire. So if you want to become the best version of yourself, find the love, happiness and freedom, you long for and avoid repeating the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. Then you need to heal. And the first step to healing is naming diagnosing your wounds to help you do that. You can take our free confidential and research based assessment. Just go to my broken family dot com again, my broken family dot com, answer the questions there and then you can view your results again. Go to my broken family dot com or just click on the link in the show notes again, among the many good lessons in Alana's story. This one hit me putting the work into healing and becoming healthy and whole actually uncovered her calling in life to education. Another way to say it is the barrier of her untreated Brokenness, hid her calling in life. And once she began to overcome that barrier of untreated Brokenness, untreated trauma, it was unveiled. It's a powerful lesson. So if you feel stuck and unsure about what you should do with your life, perhaps your Brokenness is blinding you and you need to begin healing so that you can discover it. If you'd like to share your story with us like Elana did, we'd love to hear it. There's three easy steps to do that. But first, some of the benefits of sharing your story reflecting on your story is healing on a neurobiological level. Writing your story is also healing studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed, less anxious, healthier and happier. And sharing your story with someone is healing on a neurobiological level as well. And also sharing your story gives guidance and hope to people who are struggling in similar ways that you are. How do you do that? Well, just go to restored ministry dot com slash story, again, restored ministry dot com slash story. The form in that page guides you in telling a short version of your story. And then we'll turn that into an anonymous blog article. So share your story now by going to restored ministry dot com slash story or just click on the link in the show notes. All right. That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them and always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

#093: Radio Interview: In Divorce, the Kids are Not Okay and Here’s Why

Two things we’ve learned about divorce from scientific studies and stories of people like us:

• Almost always, divorce is traumatic and damaging for the children

• The effects are typically serious and long lasting

In this episode, you’ll hear a radio interview I did that elaborates on each point:

• How divorce is traumatic for the children

• The specific pain and problems it brings into our lives

• A resource that you can use to navigate through the pain and problems and even find healing

Get Free Chapters or Buy: It’s Not Your Fault

Join the Courses Waitlist

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• https://respectliferadio.com/

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Two things we've learned about divorce from the scientific studies and listening to stories of people like us who come from divorced families. The first is almost always, divorce is traumatic and damaging for the Children. The second is the effects, the symptoms are usually serious and long lasting. And along those lines in this episode, you'll hear a radio interview that I did about that topic, how divorce is traumatic for the Children, the specific pain and problems it brings into our lives and finally a resource that you can use to navigate through the pain and problems and even find healing. So, keep listening. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation or broken marriage so you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Panelli. This is episode 93. If you found this podcast helpful in navigating the pain and problems from your parents', divorce or broken family and even finding healing. I'm thrilled to announce that we have a new resource that's going to help you even more. We'll be releasing two video courses. The first is about trauma. It answers what is trauma, how does trauma in general? But also the trauma of your parents divorce or a dysfunctional family affect you. We get into the, the science, even the neurobiology. Really fascinating stuff. What can you do to heal from it and even prevent yourself from being traumatized in the future? And so much more, so many more questions that are answered. And the course is actually taught by a trauma therapist who's been treating trauma, helping people heal their trauma for over 15 years. The second course is all about how to confidently help someone who comes from a divorce or broken family. It answers what struggles do, Children of divorce or dysfunction typically face what should you say and not say do and not do in order to help them. How do you start those difficult conversations? What if they seem like they're fine? Like what should you do in that case? And some special tips, especially for parents and so much more. And that course is actually taught by me. The content is based on a lot of research but also on a restored article that ranks top three on Google and receives over 3000 views per month on that topic. And so more details will be coming soon such as the official titles and the launch date. So stay tuned for that. But if you want to join the waitlist to get notified first and be given special advanced access to the courses, just go to restored ministry dot com slash courses. Again, restored ministry ministry singular dot com slash courses or just click on the link in the show notes. And by doing that, you also get a bonus on building healthy relationships and a strong marriages when you do sign up for that wait list. So again, go to restored ministry dot com slash courses or just click on the link in the show notes before playing the interview. A quick disclaimer. I do interviews on various podcasts and radio shows. Some of them are secular. Some of them are religious. This one happens to be religious. It's a Catholic Christian radio station in the Denver area. And so just a disclaimer there. If you're someone who, you know, doesn't believe in God or you're not Catholic, you're not Christian. I'm so glad you're here. You're still gonna learn a lot from the interview and you can even skip the God parts and you're still gonna benefit from it. So, with that, here we go today, our special guest is Joey Pontarelli. He's the author of, it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. He's also started running a successful website called restored Ministry dot com and uh Joey, thanks for joining us today, Deacon. It's an honor to be with you. Great to talk with you again. Well, you know, we had talked jeez probably a couple of years ago. I can't even remember how long it was about, uh you know, your, your ministry about really working with young people uh to deal with the pains of divorce and you put this book together and, you know, reading the book. You know, I can kind of, you know, you can feel your pain but you can also feel, you know, how much you really want to try to help young people, try to navigate this because way too many young people are told, you know what you're young, you're resilient, you'll get over it and they just kind of get brushed off. Absolutely. And I, I think that's one of the biggest myths when it comes to divorce. I think intuitively, a lot of people know that divorce is like this ugly painful thing. But so often we focus more on the parents who are going through the divorce than the Children. And when it comes to the Children, kind of the cultural belief is that like you said, they'll be fine, they're resilient and the truth is they won't be fine and they're not as resilient as we think. And we can get into some of the research. But the truth is that so many of them struggle in very serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy, coping relationship issues, difficulties in their relationship with their parents. The list goes on and on. There, there are very real problems that they deal with. But for some reason, as a culture, we've just overlooked this trauma that they've endured and the uh life lasting effects that come with it. Yeah, I just think, you know, you really hit the nail on the head about, you know, all the things that can go on again. We'll get into some of the details. And you mentioned Leila Miller in your book, we've had her on the show and you know, we have her book, Primal Loss, which is a, a bunch of people's stories about divorce. But yours is so I highly recommend that book. But this book is really specific in terms of not only the pain that you went through, but what people can do to kind of navigate this really difficult time in their life that really can't be minimized. And, and as you mentioned, right, kids can't be a second thought on this. This should be the primary thought. That was my story. You can, I came from, I come from a broken family when I was 11 years old, my parents separated and later got divorced and it, it just shattered my world. It brought so much pain and so many problems into my life. And after a while after I had, you know, got fallen into pornography as like my way of coping. I had had a lot of relationship struggles and dealt with emotional problems, like anger, anxiety, depression, loneliness. I realized I I'm broken, I need some help. And so I looked around for some resource some guidance on how to navigate the pain and the problems that was very real in my life. And I was shocked to find that there was nothing practical for young people like me. And part of the reason it shocked me was because I looked around and I saw how my siblings were struggling. I saw how friends of mine, close friends of mine who were going through their parents divorce were struggling. And so it just baffled me that there was nothing out there for young people who came from broken families. And so years later, after going to Franciscan University and growing a business, I decided to start this ministry. And uh you know, like you said, we help young people, teenagers and young adults from broken families to heal and grow so they can feel whole again and thrive. And the the problem is if, if we're not giving guidance on how to navigate the pain and problems from our parents' divorce, we're just going to continue to struggle in numerous ways. And for so many of us, the sad reality is we end up repeating what we saw in our own family. We would end up repeating that dysfunction. We end up repeating those broken relationships and broken marriages. And so if we want to prevent that from happening, which I know I do with all my heart and I want to help other people. We need to heal, we need to grow, we need to be given strategies to navigate these pain and the problems. Well, that's why I think what you put together is really such a helpful guide. I, I recommend people getting it. I'm sure they can get it at Restore Ministry. Uh But where else, where else can they get this book? Because I'll, I'll finish this interview and forget to ask you. No, no, you're totally fine. So if they wanna buy it, um they can go to Amazon and just search, it's not your fault. Um If they wanna put Joey in there, they can. But the first result should be our book. It's not your fault. Uh If they want the first chapters free, we're giving those away for free at restored ministry dot com slash books. Again. Restored ministry ministry singular dot com slash books. They could just click on the, the button there that says get free chapters and then we'll email them, uh, the free chapters. Well, you know, I think really when, when you read this book, you hear not only your story but you hear numerous other stories. It really just goes to show you how evil divorce is and really how selfish it is. Now, granted, there's people who get divorced because there's abuse issues. Absolutely right. We're not saying people should stay in an abusive marriage. But if you get married, it is for advert to quote sandlot. It isn't, you know, until we're tired of it and we wanted to do something else. And there's nothing that irritates me more than when somebody says, well, you know, we just kind of fell out of love. Well, look, you weren't abducted by aliens. Love is a choice. Right. Love is an act of the will. And I've been married for over 30 years, I'm sure my wife has been ready to bing me over the head many a time. But you know what, our marriage is stronger because we battled through the instead of being quitters and giving up like this culture tells you to do. Absolutely. And I think that's the true test of marriage. I'm 3.5 years into my own marriage. We have one baby girl at this point and it's certainly been challenging and I, I know people who come from broken families, typically, statistically, we struggle more in our relationships. But I have to say it's so beautiful and it's so good and it's so possible to work through a lot of the problems that you face and to build something really, really beautiful and it's always a work in progress. But uh I think it is possible to, to build love that lasts and that's the message that so many of us need to hear. And when it comes to divorce, like you said, there's certainly situations where uh a legal separation is necessary in order to protect the spouse or the Children. That's one of the first things that comes to mind. And in fact, I, I know the people listening right now are thinking of that like, well, what about abuse? What about violence and all that? And like you said, the church that both the catechism and canon law, it's very clear that if you're in that situation get to safety, that's really, it should be a no brainer. Um But we need to say that because a lot of people I think, um think that we're saying no, stay in an abusive situation. That's not what we're saying. But one of the leading researchers deacon on this topic of divorce says that about 70% of marriages that end in divorce are low conflict, divorces, meaning the spouses had problems not to minimize their problems at all. But it wasn't abuse, it wasn't violence, it wasn't the threat of death in those cases. Essentially, they just decided that we don't want to keep trying. Now, in about 30% of cases, this one researcher says that that's those cases where a separation would be helpful to protect the spouse and the Children. Now, even in those cases, canon law says the goal is always to reunite the spouses and to heal the marriage. So for example, I know someone who's going through this right now, the husband is an alcoholic, he's abusive, bad situation. She had to separate, she had to take the kids and get out of there. She filed for a legal separation to protect the kids, but she has no intention of not staying true to her wedding vows. And so she's staying true to her wedding vows even though her husband might not be. And, uh, and that's such a heartbreaking and difficult situation, but she is heroic for what she's doing. And so we really need to support those people going through that. And instead of just telling them, we'll just get divorced and move on, move on with your life. We need to really help them to heal the marriage if it's possible. Well, I think that's, you know, this book should be required reading for anybody who goes in and says I want a divorce, right? If you have Children, they should have to read this book because they need to understand potential. Not, not, we're not gonna paint with a broad brush. Everybody doesn't have all these things, but we are going to inflict this in all likelihood on our Children that is attempted suicide, struggle, romantic relationships, getting divorced, right? Struggling with school, acts act out in violence, not having Children, not getting married, dropping out. I mean, I just went through a quick list and you have a, a more comprehensive list. This, this is something people need to know. Look when we do something. So there's going to be a reaction to it and to think that we're gonna lift a vacuum and that we're just gonna go off and find another mate and everybody's gonna live happily ever after is a fantasy one. It is absolutely a fantasy. And honestly they can, I, I think most parents, if they actually knew how damaging that the divorce and separation could be to their Children. I, I don't think they would go down that route. I think so often. They have no idea. And there's this myth that if divorce is better for the parents, it's better for the Children too. And there was a researcher at the University of California at Berkeley, you know, not exactly a conservative stronghold, but they studied this problem of divorce for over 25 years and they published their findings in a great book called The Unexpected uh uh yeah. The Unexpected legacy of divorce. The unexpected legacy of divorce is the book. And what she found is that no divorce absolutely is devastating and damaging to the Children. In fact, going into the research, excuse me, going into the research, she expected to find that divorce had a minimal effect on the Children and that if it even did have a bigger effect, that effect would be short lived and, you know, uh temporary. And so what she found through the research is that that's absolutely not true. In fact, she said that that the effects from divorce are life altering and they last a lifetime and they're often injured in silence, which is part of the reason why I think parents aren't aware of this one, I think as a culture. We've just normalized divorce but two um they, no one talks about it. And so I'm glad we're talking about it on the show. Um We, you know, have a podcast where we bring people on to the show to share their stories about how their parents divorce has affected them. And it's never done one thing. I want to clarify to everyone listening. It's never done to hate our parents. I don't hate my parents. I love my parents. I ask my guests, do you hate your parents? They always say no, they love their parents. But in order to kind of work through this and to heal and to grow and to hopefully strengthen our relationship with our parents, we have to face these hard truths, these uncomfortable truths that we were damaged by people who love us. And so again, if parents knew how devastating this could be for their Children, I don't think they would go down that route. And that researcher from the University of California Berkeley, she proved that. She says that parents like to believe that if they are unhappy in their marriage, the Children will also be unhappy. Conversely, if divorce is better for them, it will be better for the Children. But she says things don't work that way. You know, Children frequently do not share their parents concerned with the problematic marriage while divorce brings pain into their lives that until now has gone unrecognized. And she says that we are allowing the Children to bear the psychological, economic and moral brunt of divorce. Yeah. I mean, it, it, it's, you know, you can look at study after study what broken families do do. Right. Especially to, especially to Children, whether it's the pregnancy rate, the crime, you know, being incarcerated, it just goes on and on and it's just so sad and I think, you know, and I've told my kids this, um, look, you're gonna marry somebody who comes from a divorced family. I'm not saying you don't ever do it, but you better work out really hard before you say I do. How have they coped with it? Can they get the help? I mean, make sure that you're marrying somebody who understands really the trauma that they've gone through and they're dealing with it in a realistic way because as you mentioned in your book, the high, the, the likelihood of being divorced after coming from a divorced family is, is significantly higher. It is. Yeah. And some estimates are 2-3 times higher than a normal person, which is already high, especially in the United States, which is terrifying and I love what you said and, and that's why this conversation isn't just relevant to parents who have been divorced and have seen how their kids have been affected by it. It's not just relevant to the kids themselves who have gone through it, but also like you said, any future spouses maybe you're dating someone right now or engaged or married to someone who comes from a broken home. And this, having insight into this problem into this trauma, which we need to call it a trauma. It's very much so a trauma, having insight into it will help you to love them better. It will help strengthen your relationship. It will help you to encourage them to heal their Brokenness. Because deacon, one of the things that I've learned in marriage is that I am the lid on my marriage. My marriage will only be as healthy, happy and holy as I am individually and my spouse as well. But if I'm broken, if I'm struggling, then my marriage is going to be broken and struggling too. Our relationships tend to reflect our personal personal condition. And so if we want great marriages, but I think we all do. We want great relationships, meaningful, driving intimate relationships, we got to do that hard work of digging into our Brokenness. And so often what I see is, people aren't even aware of how broken they are and they certainly don't connect the dots between the, the Brokenness, what they struggle with today to the breakdown of their parents', marriage and their family. And I can tell you with 100% certainty, there is an intimate connection. And once you go into that, whether that's through counseling or through some sort of a community or even just on your own, through prayer and through reflection and just hearing good content on the topic. Unless you go into that, uh, we're not gonna grow, we're not gonna heal, we're not gonna move forward and, and we're really gonna struggle to have those relationships, those marriages that we all of us long for. Well, and in the end, right, as spouses, we're supposed to be helping each other get to heaven and modeling that and helping our Children get there as well. We don't model it when we cut and run the first time things get difficult. We don't model a marriage with Christ at the center when it's all about me, myself and I are my three favorite people that just leads to a path of destruction. So it really is. I think this book is a great reminder to us about, you know, what we need to do. But you talk about the spiritual aspects of it too and the importance of having a good faith life, a good spiritual life. Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah. Absolutely. I, I think on a human level we can heal a lot. The world of psychology has a lot of great things to offer us, the self help, self help and that world has some good things to offer. I think God gave them a lot of gave us a lot of those things. Some of them get a little bit weird. So be careful. But, um, but I think there's a lot of good things on a human level, but ultimately, we're gonna hit a ceiling. We're only gonna be able to go so far on a human level. And so we really need God's grace in our lives. We need God's life in our souls and he could heal us in ways that we can never heal ourselves. And so often what I see, it's young people who come from broken families, they're so often opposed to a relationship with God because of really what they went through in their family. Um One way to think of it is this way when we're Children, the most powerful creatures that we know are our parents. And so we tend to think well, if they're like this, then God must be like this too. And so we project, you know, their image onto God. And so we can have this extra distorted image of God, which we need to work through. We need to first, you know, identify, become aware of, ok, God's not gonna be like my dad who just upped and left with another woman one day. But like on a subconscious level, so many of us are dealing with that. And it's a serious barrier in having an intimate, deep relationship with God. And again, a lot of people aren't even aware of that. So we have to, we have to first recognize what those issues are and then try to seek the truth whether that's through the sacraments through scripture, through the lives and the writing of the saints. But we really do need that intimate relationship with God. And so one of the things I would encourage anyone listening, who especially comes from a broken family, talk to God about the struggles. You've been through like one of the things I've done at through years of prayer and spiritual direction is I've had to ask God like God, where were you in the midst of all this Brokenness and drama and tension in my family? Like where were you? Because honestly, I felt like he just abandoned me. I felt like he was just sitting on the sidelines of watching me get my teeth kicked in because I was struggling in so many ways with the breakdown of my family. And so what I learned after, you know, years of just wrestling with this and prayer is that he wasn't just there sitting on the sidelines watching me suffer. He was right there with me in the midst of it. And so I learned that, you know, sometimes God's only response to our pain is his presence. I learned that from Father Mike Schmidt. And I think it's so true. And so we really need to go back into those memories into that trauma and see like God, where were you, where were you? And if you feel anger towards God, I think that's understandable. Um But, but don't make that uh allow you to run from him, like, draw close to him, take that anger to him, talk through it with him. And for me and a lot of the people that we work with through restored, uh, it's so fruitful when you actually do that, it's not a one and done conversation, but it's something that you can go back to again and again, I think for a lot of Catholics especially, we kind of put on this pious face of, well, I just need to kneel straight and keep my hands folded and, you know, I just need to obey and I think that there's something really good about that and beautiful, but we really need to go into those difficult parts of our lives and into our hearts and bring that stuff to God because he sees it anyway. He knows what we're feeling. He knows what we're thinking. We might as well just give him something that he doesn't have, uh which is our hearts because so often we just hold back. Um because of the pain and suffering in our lives, which, you know, deacon as, you know, what the biggest barrier to face is that problem of pain. And so we really need to bring that to him and talk through it with him and a good spiritual director. Yeah, I mean, the church does talk a lot about redemptive suffering and so we do need to look at that those suffering is, is wasted right in, it's all about the cross that we've been given to draw closer to Christ. The reminder is when we hide it, when we try to deny it, then we're playing right into the hands and the lies of the evil one who says, don't shine light on this, right? You're the only one going through this, you're just gonna have to suffer. And I think this book kind of shines the light. I mean, people need to hear that they're not the only ones going through this. And that's a lot of times what we think when we come into a struggle that we're the only ones and no one will understand. That's why to go to your website to read your book, to read Leila Miller's book. These things will shed light on you're not alone. And I think that might be one of the most important messages people need to hear. Absolutely. I recently interviewed a guest on our podcast and it brought her to tears to, to hear that she's not alone and there's nothing wrong with her for feeling the way that she does about her parents', divorce and the breakdown of their family. So often, you know, when we feel rejected or not enough or abandoned by our parents, we tend to think something's wrong with us, especially because well intentioned people will come up to us and say, well, it's for the best. Everyone's happier, you know, like now you have twice as many Christmas gifts and two homes. And, you know, they try to make this into a really good thing. And, uh, again, I think they're well intentioned in saying that, but it's actually really harmful. And so it's really free, like you said to hear, you're not alone and there's nothing wrong with you for feeling the way that you do. Uh, Victor Frankel, the Austrian psychiatrist who wrote a, you know, man search for meaning an incredible book. He said that an abnormal response to an abnormal situation is normal. Meaning, you know, if you feel broken and hurt by the breakdown of your family, there's nothing wrong with you. It's your, in fact, your your mind, your body is, is reacting properly uh to a very traumatic event in your life. And so anyone listening out there who's been through this, just know that you're not alone, this is not your fault. There's nothing you did to cause it, there's nothing you could have done sadly to prevent it from happening. And you know, as much as you might want to, uh you can't fix your parents' marriage. That's something they have to do on their own. You can certainly try to influence them in positive ways and just be a good example to how you would hope they would live their lives, but you can't do it for them. They have to take ownership of that. And so hearing, hearing that you're not alone, hearing that it's not your fault hearing that. There's nothing strange with you for feeling that way, I think is really helpful. And if, if you want to hear more um encouragement like that, our podcast is a great place. It's called Restored, Helping Children of Divorce. Wherever you listen to podcasts, you can find it again, that's restored, helping Children of divorce. And that interview that I mentioned with that uh young woman, it, it was really free for her to hear that and I hope it would be for you too. Yeah. No, I strongly encourage people to go on your website, listen to the podcast. I've done that and, you know, I've been fortunate, I haven't come from that environment, but you can. But I think even if you haven't listening to it, you'll feel the pain that people have and you'll be able to address it in a way which is more helpful. Unlike what you're saying, let's just throw material things at it and say that fixes it. I think the other thing that your book does a really good job on and we only have a couple minutes. I can't believe it is setting up proper boundaries, right? You are not your parents counsel, you are not their confidant that you need to be able to set boundaries so that you can heal as opposed to carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders. Right. Absolutely. And, uh for so many of us who really love our parents and who wanna help them. We can fall into these traps that honestly they can, they, they look like we're loving and helping our parents such as becoming their confidant, but we don't have time to get into the research. But what the research shows is that if you as a child act almost as a spouse to your parent, it's so damaging, not only for you but also for them and your relationship eventually, even though it might feel like in the moment that you're helping them eventually, it's going to create very unhealthy dynamics, unhealthy dependencies that should not be there. And so if you're a child and your mom and your dad is leaning on you in that way, what I suggest and what, what we've seen work in the lives of young people is try to redirect them to the proper support. Maybe that's a counselor, a pastor, a friend, you know, a relative, someone like that. And so what something you can say to your mom and your dad, you could say mom, dad, you know, I love you. I see that you're hurting. I see this is really difficult for you. But, but I can't be the one to support you in this way. Like I, I wanna love you, but it's gonna have to be in another way like who can you talk to about all of this stuff? And it might be kind of off putting when you tell your parents that but like Deacon said, we need those healthy boundaries in place in order to ultimately have a better healthier relationship with mom or dad. So that's one struggle, another struggle is bad mouthing. So many parents, they're hurt by their spouse and so they drag the kids into it. They kind of force the kids to pick sides. They say really nasty things about the other parent. And so any parents listening right now, please stop that. Uh I get that you're hurt and I can't imagine what you're going through. It must be so difficult, but that's not, that's gonna damage your kids even more. And I know you don't want to do that. I know all your parents listening would take a bullet for your kids. And so the badmouthing I, I get that you might need to vent, go talk to a friend and go talk to a counselor, go talk to a relative, someone else but not your kids that can be so damaging for them. And then finally, one of the other most common things that we've seen and this goes for parents as well as kids is the middle man. So so often as kids are put in the middle between our parents because maybe our parents aren't on speaking terms and that can just be so stressful and damaging. And I've played that role. I've seen my siblings play, play that role. And so parents listening, keep your kids out of it if you can't talk directly to your spouse. Go through another intermediary through your lawyer. Through again, a relative, a friend counselor, whoever big thanks to Respect Life Radio for allowing us to rea that interview and you can check them out at Respect Life radio dot com. And again, the book that we discussed in the interview is called It's Not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents', divorce. And after reading it, teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents, divorce or separation, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems. They'll learn healing tactics to help them feel whole again, how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions about their future. And the content itself is based on research, expert advice and real life stories. So again, if you want to buy the book, you can go to restored ministry dot com slash books, we're also giving away the first chapters for free. So if you go to restored ministry dot com slash books or just click on the link in the show notes, you can either buy it or get the first chapters for free. Right? This episode is a wrap. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

#092: Is Divorce Good or Bad for Children? | Katy Faust

Is divorce good or bad for children? There’s tons of confusion around that question. In this episode, speaker and author Katy Faust offers answers with clarity and tons of research. She also touches on:

• How does divorce affect the children?

• Is divorce really worse than the death of a parent? 

• What do children need that marriage provides?

• How do you navigate speaking about your parents in a respectful yet honest way?

• What’s your advice to parents considering divorce?

Buy Katy’s book: Them Before Us: Why We Need a Global Children's Rights Movement

Take the assessment

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Katy Faust

  • Website

  • Facebook

  • Instagram

  • Twitter

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Is divorce good or bad for Children? There's tons of confusion around that question. But thankfully in this episode, speaker and author Katie Foss offers answers with clarity and tons of research to that question. She also answers. How did divorce become so prevalent? It's divorce really worse than the death of a parent. Really interesting discussion and research around that. What do Children need that marriage provides as a child? How do you navigate? Speaking about your parents in a respectful yet honest way and what's your advice to parents considering divorce? Tons of great content, had a lot of research. So keep listening. Welcome to the resort podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce, separation or broken marriage so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Julie Pontarelli. This is episode 92. As I mentioned, my guest today is Katie Faus. Katie is the founder and president of them before us, a global movement defending children's right to their mother and father. She publishes, speaks and testifies widely on why marriage and family are matters of justice for Children. Her articles have appeared in Newsweek USA today, the Federalist Public discourse, the Daily Signal, the Washington examiner, the American Mind and the American Conservative Katie helped design the teen edition of Kenya Vox which studies sex, marriage and relationships from a natural law perspective. She is the author of the book. Then before us, why We need a global children's rights movement. She and her husband are raising their four Children in Seattle. So without waiting any longer, here's my conversation with Katie Katie. It's so good to have you on the show. I've wanted this for a while. So thank you for making time to join us. Well, on our little free chat here, I just realized that I've been a fan of yours for, I probably saw you like, right when you first launched because once you started talking like, wait a second, I've been on that website. So it's a joy to be with you. Thank you so much. Now you're the bigger deal and we're big fans. So thank you for the work that you're doing and I'm so excited to learn from you. I'd like to start with your story if that's okay. Like so many of us listening, even your trauma in your life, including your parents, divorce. What happened there and how did it affect you? First of all, I'm so glad that you understand that divorce is traumatic. You know, the narrative that our culture tells about divorce and really all forms of modern family is the kids will be fine. The kids will be happy if the adults are happy. And the reality is, as you know, the research shows that this is a deeply traumatic life altering event for kids and not only is it a one time event, it usually leads to multiple losses and transitions and other forms of trauma and, and lost. So you're just, you're framing is exactly right. And I'm so grateful that teens and young adults are coming to get validation from you because literally there's just hardly any sources in the world that will even tell kids that. Yeah, you are wrong to feel hurt about this. So, my parents were married until I was 10. I was clueless. I had no idea there was anything wrong and it was just, you know, some kids know and some kids don't and I was just absolutely oblivious and our parents sat down, um, and told me one night that they were getting a divorce and I was devastated. My world was absolutely rocked. Um, I ended up having like physical symptoms the first year afterwards of bizarre stomach pains that would like just, just come out of nowhere and debilitate me in the middle of a play date. And I remember my, my dad having to like, carry me places because I couldn't walk, you know, and I remember this one time where I was sitting in class ready to do like a, like a test and the teacher said, okay, pick up your pencils okay and go And then like, five seconds later, pencils down, it's time to stop. And I was like, what? And like 20 minutes had gone by and I hadn't even realized that, you know what I mean? Like, I just was so lost in the sadness and the upheaval of my life and this new reality. So my and I was petrified because the only kind of divorces that I had ever seen were the kind of divorces where the dad moves away, or the kid sees their dad once a month or only on the weekends. And my dad and I were really close, my mom and I were really close and so I was just so afraid that I was gonna lose, especially my dad, you know, so long story, they actually had a very amicable divorce and lived very close to one another. I could go see whichever one I wanted whenever I wanted. And so I ended up remaining in pretty close relationship with both of them throughout honestly, through the rest of my life. And for that, I'm very, very grateful. But, you know, the story is always, is not just That one time event of we're now getting divorced, it's really what ends up being nonstop change and instability after that. Right? So my father dated, he had, had a lot of several different girlfriends and then remarried. But very soon after the divorce, my mom re partnered with a woman and they have been in a relationship together ever since then, since I was 10. And so they've been a really big part of my life with the remaining of my adolescent years and then as a young, married and as a young mother and now as a mother of teenagers, so we, we've got it all going on and my husband's from a divorced home too, but his was not the kind of divorce, like my parents could still be in the same room together and we would sometimes spend holidays together. But for his parents, it was war, you know, and not just war with each other, but they used him against the other parent. So, you know, even though my story sounds somewhat dramatic, he had a more of a conventional, you know, both of his parents remarried heterosexual and it was very, very hard. I mean, his heart, they divorced when he was three and his mother actually was killed suddenly when he was 16. And he would probably say that the divorce was more traumatic than his mother's death. So we are definitely in that camp of people who are seeking to parent the family. We wish we had had as kids. We want to be the people who were, you know, especially my husband when we were dating. He would say, are you serious about this relationship? Because my Children will never live through what I've lived through. If we get married, it is forever and I'm, and I mean, he would just have me like, recommit all through our dating and engagement. He's like I am not going to do this unless you are all in because he vowed that his Children wouldn't live through what he lived through. Wow. Incredible. Thank you for sharing and man, yeah, my heart breaks for you and for your husband and I can relate on so many levels. And you know, I know uh in the book, in your book, you mentioned so clearly how there's really no such thing as a good divorce, even if some are less dramatic. And so what we'll get into all that for sure, especially the difference between low conflict and high conflict. That's a really important distinction that you make so clearly in your book. But I wanted to stop for a second on a pain point that our listeners deal with a lot and that is talking about this topic at all. So I'm curious how you as a public figure, talk about this topic, navigate, speaking about your parents in particular in a respectful, yet an honest way because like I said, there's a painful point for our listeners where we want to be honest, truthful about what we've been through that our parents actions and decisions harmed us, but still honor them because we love them. Like we want to respect them, we want the best for them. So how do you navigate that little trip? The ministry trade because when I am not doing children's rights advocacy, I'm deeply involved in church. My husband's a pastor, we do tons of counseling. I do tons of walking with people in difficult situations and you know, the women's ministry world in my life. We've got a little saying that says you don't need to tell everybody everything, but you do need to tell somebody everything. And so somebody needs to hear every little corner of the pain and the confusion and the loss that you've experienced. It's good to do that with a counselor, but it's I would say better to do it with a trusted friend. You've got to let somebody in, right? Because the areas where people don't get to come in those areas very quickly start to control you. So I think that you should tell somebody everything but probably not publicly. So for my situation, it actually is fairly easy for me to speak well of my parents because there's some things that I'm not going to share about them. You know, some aspects of things leading up to their divorce, post divorce. That's just not my information to share. So I don't, I can talk honestly about kind of give an overview of how it impacted me the divorce. But the reality is I don't share their dirt. I just don't, but I can absolutely share the things that they did. Well, like both of them remained very connected to me. Very intentional. They were, they did their best to live at peace with one another. And I will also say this, that as they re partnered and remarried, neither of them, they did a very good job of making clear that their new partners were not my parent, right? I had a mother and a father. Neither of their new partners or, or spouses ever tried to replace or step into the role of my mom and dad, which I thought was very smart. So I think that, that my parents, you know, obviously it was the undoing of the home that I loved, you know, and wanted every child wants their mom and dad to love them and love each other. That's, I mean, like, I've never heard it more simply than that. I'll tell you what every kid wants. They want their mom and dad to love them and they want their mom and dad to love each other. That's it. And if they're not loving each other, right. That's a, that's a sort of a death for the child in some ways. But even if they weren't loving each other, at least they continued loving me and I still had a full relationship with both of them. Beautiful. Thanks for that advice. That is helpful. And are you familiar with the podcast? The place we find ourselves? It's a great podcast. Yeah, it's a great podcast. He's a therapist out in Colorado and he really makes healing simple, which I love. And so he talks about trauma and how you heal from. And one of the things he teaches is that neurobiologists have found that um one measure of brain health is neural connectivity. So for everyone listening, if you imagine your brain is like a web of connections, the more connections you have, the healthier, your brain, the healthier you are as a person. And he says that the act of reflecting on your story in a constructive way. Um And in addition to that, telling your story to someone who can receive in an empathetic way, actually heals your brain because it increases connectivity, thereby making you healthier more whole. And so I think that advice is fantastic and we're big proponents of that as well. So I love that I want to shift gears to your book if that's okay. So in the chapter on divorce, the main point you really make throughout that whole chapter is that divorce is traumatic and it's bad for Children like we said at the top of the show and you prove it so clearly. So I'd like to get into some of that proof. But before we do, I want to give you the chance to elaborate a little bit more on what you just said, which is, you know, what is it that marriage provides for Children that they need so badly? You mentioned it already. But I want to give you a chance to go and if you don't mind. I'll back up a couple more steps and just say what I do if that's okay. So, back when the whole marriage debate was raging, um, in 2012 kind of first came on my radar. Um, what I heard people saying, you know, in, in an effort to advance gay marriage is kids don't care if they have two moms or two dads. And what that means is kids don't care if they've lost their mom or dad. Because every time you're looking at a picture of a kid with two dads, you're looking at a kid with no mom. Every time you're looking at a picture of kids with moms, you're looking at a picture of a child who has lost their father. And you know, we've been doing youth ministry and I have a background in adoption work. And I think there's very few things kids care more about than being loved and known by their mom and dad. And so to me, it was just this huge, it was like the weaponization of child pain to advance a political agenda. And I totally couldn't handle it. It like it enraged me. And so it got me into writing about the importance of mothers and fathers. And then because I realized that the whole marriage debate around gay marriage especially obsessively focused on what adults want. But then the more that I did like research and on all of this, I realized everything that has to do with marriage and family is always focused on obsessively on what the adults want, whether you're talking about like reproductive technologies, it's so focused on the pain and the longing of people with infertility, you know, or people with same sex attraction that want to have a child or cohabitation or polygamy or like all of these different topics, everything we hear about, it always has to do with elevating adult feeling, desire, longing, identity above the well being of kids. And you can see that plainly in the conversation around divorce. It is always about what the adults want, what's going to meet their needs. It's their suffering, it's their longing, it's their new romance, it's their unfulfilled part that always takes center stage and the kids just have to stick it and it makes me so angry. You know, I'm like all of us. I am surrounded by kids who are, who have just been told their parents are divorcing, who have been in this process for a year or two, who are 10 or 20 years out of it and it very often leads leaves a lifelong wound. So my I started a nonprofit in 2018 in essence saying that Children have a right to their mother and father and every question about marriage and family, whether it's the definition of marriage, how we think about divorce, same sex, parenting, sperm donation, egg donation, surrogacy, adoption, polygamy. Every conversation we have about marriage and family in essence boils down to matters of justice for Children. And that is, are you protecting children's right to their mother and father or are you violating children's rights to their mother and father? So we wrote a book about that. We, me and my co author Stacey that goes through each of those topics. Chapter one is just all about why Children do have a natural right to their mother and father. And it's not a stretch, it's a pretty well established, nearly universally agreed upon principle. Chapter two is all about why biology matters in the parent child relationship. And this is pretty relevant probably to your audience because they have experienced the dissolution of their parents', marriage of their two biological parents. And then very often they have begun to be parented by somebody who was unrelated to them in a handful of redemptive cases that has gone well because that unrelated adult is genuinely seeking to step into the child's life in a way that is redemptive, but in the majority of cases that has not increased child well being. And that's because research shows that unrelated adults are less protective, less connected, less invested in Children than their own mother and father. In. Chapter three, we talk about why gender matters in the parent child relationship, why moms and dads offer distinct and complementary benefits. And then we talk about why marriage is a matter of justice for Children because it is the only institution that unites the two people to whom Children have a natural, right? So it's on that foundation that we then talk about divorce. And so we go right into divorce right after that, right? Because if you're talking about the legal movement to destroy the family that didn't begin with same sex marriage that began with no fault, divorce, no fault. Divorce was the original redefinition of marriage. That is when we started to transform what used to be the most child friendly institution the world has ever known marriage into just another vehicle of adult fulfillment. So that's, that's sort of like leading up to divorce and like kind of the foundation needed to know before we address divorce, let's say with no fault, divorce for a second. How did that come about? Because you say in the book that divorce was once a rarity, it wasn't a very common thing but that all changed with no fault divorce like you just mentioned. So what is no fault, divorce versus at fault divorce? And how did that all come about? Most places, most laws, civil and religious have recognized that there are times when a marriage might need to dissolve, you know, biblically, there was exceptions for adultery or that was a justifiable reason to end a marriage. In terms of our civil law, we have largely regarded the three A's adultery abuse, abandonment, right? That if you were guilty of breaking your marriage vow to have and to hold in richer for poorer sickness and health till death. Do you part? Right? That's your vow. And if you violated the vow because you were abusive because there was adultery or because you abandoned the family or your spouse, society and civil government would punish you. Right? And so what that did is this at fault divorce standard actually pressured the couple to keep their marriage together because what would happen if dad ran off with the secretary? Well, first of all the courts wouldn't give him 50% custody in the house and society would look down on him and say you are, that is a home wrecking floozy. You need to go back to your wife and kids. How dare you do this to them? Right. So that's sort of the at fault model where somebody is deemed at fault for breaking up the marriage. Well, the problem was in the late sixties, especially you had people that were simply unhappy in their marriages and they wanted a divorce. But because no fault, divorce, divorce was not an option, they would then have to sort of lie and say, well, James had an affair and that's why we're getting a divorce, but James really hadn't had an affair. They just both wanted out of the marriage. And so we began with no fault, divorce going well, this is so mean adults have to lie and say they did something that they didn't do. Let's create something called no fault, divorce where you can get out of the marriage when nobody is at fault of abuse, adultery, abandonment. And so that's more humane, right? And actually Ronald Reagan was the first governor to legalize this in California in 1969 because he himself had to go through a situation where they got a at Fault divorce when nobody was at Fault because he wanted out of one of his marriages. So what that led to was an absolute explosion of divorces and no fault, divorce very quickly became divorce against your will, right? Instead of it both parties knowing, you know what? I just don't think this is working for us. No fault. Divorce meant that almost always there was an innocent party or somebody that was desperately trying to make the marriage work and hold the family together and be a responsible parent and one party that just wanted out and simply wasn't willing to do the hard thing on behalf of the family and the kids. But the no fault divorce model Required that both spouses be treated equally. There was no favor given to the innocent spouse or the faithful spouse. The judge was required to split things 5050 or award 50% custody or split the assets down even though very often there was one spouse who was misbehaving or not adhering to their vows. So Reagan later went on and said that was the biggest mistake of his political career was legalizing no fault, divorce because it had such a devastating impact all across the country. Wow. Fascinating in that background. No. Reading your book. That was, I was learning that for the first time even with this work that I do. So, it was so insightful and helpful. And I think one of the things I've heard, a lot of people say when, when this topic comes up with no fault, divorce is that, you know, they say without no fault, divorce, spouses, especially women will be stuck in abusive marriages. What's your response? It is true that it is sometimes hard to prove abuse. My concern with that argument is if there is abuse going on and you get divorced through no fault system, there's no way to keep the child from the abusive parent. There's really abuse going on. It must be proved they lose custody because to me it's not enough to say, well, he's abusive, he's unstable. I'm going to get a no fault divorce and get out of this. When the kids still going to have to deal with that, they're just not going to have the buffer of the same responsible parent. So there are some cases where I know where some women have left abusive marriages through no fault, divorce. I would rather have it be an at fault divorce and we punish the guy, punish him if there is real abuse going on, he needs to be punished and he needs to be put in prison. So I do think that sometimes very often whether it's so called emotional abuse or some other kind of physical abuse, oftentimes that abuse is a veil for, I just want to get out of here, but I don't want to look like morally responsible, especially the emotional abuse. You know, I'm like, look, I've been around the block enough time. I have counseled people and struggling marriages. I know that some of those people say this is emotional abuse. And I'm like, you know, it's not, it's a legitimate disagreement or it's a personality difference or it's a, you're actually asking for something destructive and unreasonable. And he is saying, no, that's not emotional abuse. That's somebody willing to go along with what you're saying. So I do agree that there are some times where people use no fault, divorce to get out of a marriage that they should leave or at least a separation. But very often those claims of abuse are not what they, what they seen. And legally, I would rather have the abuse be proved so the guy can go to jail. Yeah. No, it makes so much sense how that would end up being better for the Children especially. And on that topic, I love how you bring in the research on this, the difference between low conflict and high conflict, divorce. I think this is really important to understand because I think a lot of people perhaps assume that the majority of divorces are high conflict situation where there's abuse, there's a threat of death, there's violence, there's, you know, a lot of overt problems and drama at home, but that's not the case. Talk about that. I think that, you know what we see from a lot of media. I think the perception we have is that divorce takes place in these extreme cases, right, where it's a serial cheater or there's abuse going on. And the reality is 70% of divorces break up low conflict marriages, right? The majority of divorces that take place today are not these extreme cases. The majority of them are people who have fallen out of love or who are unwilling to do the hard work. And to be clear, it is hard work. It is hard if you're in a marriage where there's job loss or financial challenges or porn addiction or emotional affairs going on or unpacking childhood baggage. I mean, the reality is you make the vow because it is hard. And the reality is that most divorces take place because somebody is unwilling to do the hard work. And what we say in the book and what we say in our ministry, in our in our organization is it is hard, like keeping a marriage together is difficult. But if the adults are unwilling to do the hard work in those low conflict marriages, what they are saying is this cross is too heavy for me here, kids, you take it instead, it is simply a transference of the hard work. That's so true. And I see that day in day out and the young people that we serve, that we mentor. It's, it's such a transference and you know, there's so many painful stories even in your book. You know, I hear this stuff all the time. Kitty but reading that chapter and divorce in your book, I had to like take some breaks and be like, this is so sad how much these Children suffer so oft in silence because no one's speaking for them. So I'm grateful that you are since you're such a so knowledgeable on statistics. I was wondering about the divorce rate. That's something that comes up a lot. What is the divorce rate currently? And are there any challenges to getting those statistics these days? Because I know there's been some changes in the way that we collect? Well, first of all, let me just say that I had done a lot of research on same sex parenting and I had really been in the reproductive technology world before I wrote the book. And divorce was probably the area where I was the least familiar with the research and it was the divorce chapter that I had to step away from a couple of times. It was the divorce chapter that I was like, and it's not like it's not like I don't have my own personal experience it's not like it's unfamiliar to me in terms of the lives of people around me. But I guess the research showed me the reality of what I had been seeing for a while. You know, the one statistic that really got me, That I was like that I've seen so many times is shows that in 50% of divorce cases, 50% of the kids who are living in two different homes because their parents divorced, 50% of them develop different personalities, right? They literally become a different person from their mother's house to their father's house because they have different religions. Mom and dad now have different political views. There's different secrets that kids have to keep at each house. There's people in their lives and very often they feel so close to the people at their mom's house and their dad's house, but the two people in those two worlds barely know the other one exists. And so they literally transform themselves into a different person between the drive from mom's house to dad's house. And that was when I just had to stop for a while because I saw that as a kid. I see it now in the lives of kids around me who are in a situation of divorce and it is an absolute cruelty. It's such a cruelty and the fact that we have allowed this to go on virtually unchallenged and unchecked for decades that we have wrecked a generation of kids over this and we never talk about it. It just, I'm generally a very nice person but you talk about these kinds of things and it enrages me because the harm to Children is so strong and so long lasting. So divorce, we did see a peak in terms of divorce rates. We have seen divorce drop in the last couple of decades, but it's not good news. The reason the divorce rate has dropped is because marriage rates have dropped and so fewer people are getting married. Therefore fewer people are getting divorced and fewer people getting married is bad because that means kids aren't being raised in marriages for the first few years of their life before their parents break up. They're being raised in cohabiting relationships before their parents break up. And Children in cohabiting households fair dramatically worse than kids raised in married households. So there's very little positive on the home front when it comes to marriage and divorce rates right now. Okay. Now, that makes so much sense and it is sad. I, yeah, there's so much to say here. One of the statistics that really stood out to me going back to what you said in the, in your book was about Children of divorce than repeating that cycle in their own lives. And I'll just read the snip if that's okay. It goes like this Children of divorce whose parents never remarried are 45% more likely to divorce and those whose parents whose divorced parents married, step parents were 91% more likely to divorce compared with adults raised an intact biological families. That blew me away. Any comments. I think it also blows me away. Right. You would think that a kid who watches their mom and dad divorce and then their mom remarries that they would go okay. Look, marriage is still worth doing marriage. You know, we can do this, but that's ultimately not what they conclude. If your parents divorce, it is going to set you back in terms of going. I don't know if like real love is even possible. But if you see one of your parents remarry, something about that literally makes it more likely that the child will say I can never, I can never get married myself. I should never get married myself. Is it because there is less connectedness investment in the step family situation? Is it because they feel like so much more of an outsider? Is it because marriage now leaves the impression that they'll never get what they really want, which is their own mom and dad getting back together again? I don't know. I can't explain that statistic, but it's not really an argument that you can make from the data if you are a parent who has divorced and you hope and you, and, and it was against your will and you love the institution of marriage and you believe that marriages are wonderful and good. You should probably stay single. You should probably not get remarried because somehow that damages your child's own opinion of the institution of marriage in a way that your divorce didn't. Yeah. And it's a very unpopular thing to say, but there's so much truth in it and it's true. Love requires sacrifice. This whole idea that the purpose of marriage is happiness is just so false and we need to speak out against it whenever we can. Doesn't mean that happiness isn't a part of marriage. It's a good thing to experience joy within marriage. It's not gonna be a fairy tale. And I think especially people in Michael or my generation, I think we were kind of sold on that idea where even though we saw the, you know, misery of a lot of marriages and divorces and just broken families, we had this hope somewhere inside of us. I know I experienced like that simultaneous like terror and fear. Um And at the same time, just like a desire to build something so much better. Yeah, it became almost an idol to me. It was this, you know, this thing that I wanted to be perfect and be so different. So the opposite of what I saw in my parents' marriage, um that it just became this kind of fantasy that I was trying to build. And then I realized love is messy. You know, marriage is messy. We've been married about five years at this point. And uh I've learned that it's, it's not easy, but there's so much beauty in that. And we all know that the hardest things in life, you know, the best things in life are often hard. And so, you know, ask any Navy Seal, ask any Olympic gold medalist how they got to where they are. They didn't do it by sitting on the couch watching Netflix, like they showed up every day they put in the hard work, especially when they didn't feel like it. What should we expect any less in marriage? Well, and you know, we are almost at 25 years in our marriage. It is beautiful and we were idiots when we got married, we were total idiots. We had never seen a healthy marriage, lived out in our home and we had a few examples as kids that we could, you know, and there was one family in particular in my husband's life who showed him what he deserved and it was formative for him. But once we got married, we needed discipleship in this area of our life. So at the different churches that we went to, we would find a couple that was 10 years ahead of us or 15 years ahead of us who had a great marriage. And we were just like, tell us what to do, tell us how to do this. We gave them permission to show us what we were doing wrong. And there would be women that would, that I gave permission to hold me accountable and she would pull me aside after a conversation and she'd say things like, do you see how you undermined your husband in front of his friend? Don't ever do that again? You know, like I needed somebody to just give me tailored advice about this. So it's totally possible. But a lot of us need that recalibration, right? The recalibration of its impossible, it will never happen. But also the recalibration of it's ideal, this is going to save you, right? So you've got to have and the only way you're going to get that is with wise people who have gone before you who can give you that tailored moment by moment advice. So good, I love it. We want to start this program called The School of Love where we pair up young people who come from broken families with healthy marriages and families. So they could just spend time, go over maybe a couple times a month, have a meal with them, help out with chores around the house just to like soak in like you said, they're example, which just again programs you on a subconscious level and how to love, how to build relationships, how to build because like you said, more than anyone else, we learned how to love and how to build relationships and how to build marriages through our parents example. Again, even on a subconscious level but thankfully that programming can be rewritten, the script can be changed. And uh and we believe in that so deeply. So that's something I'd love to talk to you more about that sometimes. That's something that we will at some point because It's a trend we've seen in this podcast, like in the 90 plus interviews we've done at this point. So many people say, you know, it was so formative, like you said, so healing to spend time with this healthy family, with this married couple that wasn't perfect, but they had a really good, beautiful marriage. And that was the same for me. There were two couples who to this day just have so much love and respect for who gave me hope that love could last that it was possible and even showed me by their example of how to do it myself. So, so helpful. Thanks for that tip and to everyone listening, find those people in your life who you can look up to, you can mentor you. And you'd probably be surprised how willing they are to help you if you just ask, start with building that relationship. But in time you can be more intentional and say, hey, you know, I would go to the to the men in the marriage especially and I'd say, hey, I want a good marriage. You know, I come from a broken family. Would you mind mentoring me and helping me here and there? And they were still willing to give good advice. So great, great tip. I want to go back to the research in the limited time that we have together. So, you know, you've clearly demonstrated in the book shows you've researched this topic extensively. What have you learned about how divorce affects the Children in addition to everything else, we've already touched on how does it not affect the Children would be an easier question to answer. And the reality is that it affects Children on every level of their bodies. There's actually a stat that we give beginning of chapter two that talks about father loss, like they've actually studied father loss and in one of those death, divorce and incarceration where the kids that were surveyed in this study that had lost a father to death devils or incarceration and what they found, especially when that happened early on in life, that those Children had shorter telomeres, that is the end cap of their chromosome. So it literally affected Children on the cellular level and telomeres are responsible for health and longevity, right? Children who grow up daughters who grow up without their dad in their home, absent dad, maybe for divorce, maybe for some other reason, those girls end up beginning their menstrual periods on average a year earlier than other girls, right? There's something about father absence that triggers an early reproductive season. And couple that with the father hunger that Children, girls often go through when they don't have a dad. That is one reason why we see drastically higher rates of teen pregnancy in girls whose fathers are not living with them and connected to them. Physically, Children of divorce are more susceptible to getting like common colds, chronic illnesses, like it literally affects their physical health for the rest of their life. People who already had underlying mental health struggles, sometimes the divorce can lead to extreme mental health disorders. So it can be very serious. We obviously see a greater emotional burden on Children. Like I think most of us expect that there's going to be an emotional toll on the kids, but most people sort of conceptualize it as, oh, it's like a cold, it's, you know, the divorce is like a bad cold, they'll get over it. But that's not really what divorce does to a child's emotional state. Children who have divorced parents just have higher emotional challenges and emotional struggles than their peers who are living continually in one home who have never had to deal with that trauma and that destruction, that disruption, Children struggle in school, right. Divorce. We pulled in some, some surveys of test results, you know, for like the S A T s or the equivalent in the UK and these kids will say the divorce absolutely tanked my test scores, right? Kids really struggled academically and then relational e you know, you pulled out that study that shows that kids whose parents divorced the deck is stacked against them When it comes to forming and maintaining their own healthy relationships. And there's a quote, I mean, probably have 30 stories in the divorce chapter of kids who went through divorce. And there's one woman that said, the one thing that my parents divorce taught me if anybody can leave you any time and you'll never see it coming and there's nothing you can do about it. And if you learn that lesson from divorce, why would you ever try? Why would you ever risk forming your own family and getting married? And I actually think that it is because divorce was so with at epidemic levels, when our current millennials are now considering getting married for them, marriage looks so risky. Shacking up seems so low risk, right? When the reality is, it's the opposite, right? Shacking up having relationships have much higher levels of abuse, more, much higher levels of dissolution. The Children of cohabiting parents are more likely to be abused in the collected, more likely to live in poverty. Marriage is and still, you know, was and still is the safest avenue for especially women and Children. But when you've learned those lessons of your parents', divorce, marriage itself feels risky. So it said it's a no, there's nothing good. I mean, there are a few rare cases where separation or divorce might be necessary for the protection of one of the parties or the kids, but there's no child of divorce, overall, whatever situation that fares as well. Statistically as the child raised by their own married, biological mother and father, I love it. You know, it's so important to know this stuff. And for some reason, the myths out there in our culture just say the absolute opposite. And the point you made earlier about your husband's family and just how his mom was tragically killed, you know, when he was 16, that reminds me of the story you told in the book and the study that you quote, that found that the death of parent inflicts less psychological damage on a child um than a divorce does. And that again flies in the face of what our culture says about divorce, which is Children are resilient or if the divorce is better for the parents, it's better for the Children too. So elaborate on that, especially that study, which is fascinating. We're not saying of course that it, you know, you lose your parents tragic accident that that's not a really, really difficult and traumatic thing to go through. Of course, it is, but it's mind boggling that this would be even more traumatic. So why is that? You know, why is it that it's sometimes more traumatic to have parents who divorced? Well, when my husband's mother died, everybody mourned with him. He was not alone. There was so much validation. Everybody looked back and remembered his mother fondly. He had a lot of people who supported him in his loss. But if you look back at often divorce situations, very few people will validate the child's loss. Much of the messages that Children get are. Oh my goodness. You should be so happy that your parents are happy. You get to have two Christmases. Wow. Look at this incredible man that your mom has found now. In essence, the messages are all like you should support your parents, right? You need to validate and support your parents. You should celebrate what's going on with your parents. And so very often in those divorce situations, the child is alone in their grief, nobody's validating it. If one parent looks back at the other parent, it usually is not with fondness. It's often like, oh that man, right? It's a demonization of the child's parents instead. So that creates a huge psychological burden on the child because the child has, in both of those cases, the child has experienced very real loss and trauma. But in one of those cases, the child is surrounded by a community of people who are mourning and remembering together. And then the other one, the kid is absolutely on their own. And oftentimes the world is telling them the exact opposite of what they need to hear. 100% and what makes trauma so devastating on anyone, but especially young people is essentially what happens in the aftermath of it. You know, if like you said, there's people come around you and love you and walk with you through it. Um You're going to fare much better in life than like you said, if you're abandoned, if you're feel like you're rejected, unwanted, like all these things that happen when your parents get divorced and it's just so sad that um there's not more people out there who are talking about this. I'm so glad that you and your organization exists and I want to shift a little bit to parents listening. We have parents listening right now who are considering a divorce? Like right now they're listening, they're considering a divorce. What's your advice to them? You don't have to read my whole book. Just read chapter five. Don't think your kids are special. They're not. Your kids may, may not know you're considering divorce or maybe they're too afraid to tell you what they think because they desperately want your love. And it's very hard for a kid to be honest with their parents because they're so desperate, right for that. Maybe they can't even form the words. But the reality is somebody is going to do the hard thing in this situation. There's no easy answer here. Whatever you are going through, whatever struggle you're experiencing in your marriage, I will not minimize that. It is hard. I have been in a marriage myself. I have been surrounded by a variety of other marriages. The kind of struggles that married couples go through are very hard, especially in certain seasons, they usually don't last. But man, those seasons when you're in the fire feel like it feels like you've just got to get out. But the reality is either you will do the hard thing of working it through finding the healing, doing the counseling, doing your own self examination, changing your own behavior, changing your expectations or your kids will do hard things. Do not imagine a scenario where nobody does hard things. If you don't, your kids will. And if you do, there's a very good chance that things will be better. In a couple of years, we've got several studies at the end of the chapter that talk about remaining in a marriage even when you want to get out. And the very high rates of improvement and happiness if you can persist. But if you choose the no fault, divorce route, your Children will not have a year or two of struggle, they will have a lifetime of struggle. So you are swapping, doing the hard thing in your own marriage for a couple of years for their lifelong struggle. And that is not the narrative of a just decision making process, a just society or adjust family does not ask the week to sacrifice for the strong, you are the parents. You are the strong, you sacrifice for the week, you sacrifice for your Children because the only alternative is your kids sacrificing for you. And that is the no go zone. I can't agree more and there's more information in the book. If you guys want to pick that up, kid even dives into what researchers have to say about kind of that economy. Like if you're in a difficult situation, what's best for the Children, which I thought was fascinating, Amato and Booth in particular Kitty. I was thinking of. Um, did you want to go through that at all? About a motto? There are cases like those 30% of high conflict marriage cases where the child does experience some relief in the wake of a divorce, right? When there are plates being thrown across the kitchen, when there is extreme volatility, oftentimes the kids do experience relief post divorce. Um so you can work that through and talk that through with trusted counselors and advisers. But we have to dispel this idea but but even the kids that do come out of those high conflict marriages who then divorce. Those kids do not fare as well as the parents who worked it out and were able to stay together, right? So sometimes you have to get out. But this narrative that then the kids are going to be fine. No, those kids don't fare as well as the kids who were persistently raised by their married mom and dad. So like we said like there are cases where divorce may be the best option, but that is not the majority of divorces that are taking place today. Yeah, and I think it's assumed that it's, it's safe to assume in most cases that's not your case that work through every possible scenario. And even if you know, one of the things that we see in this um nonprofit that we run is even if there's a need for a temporary separation, that is a tool or a step toward healing the family, bringing the marriage back together, that might be necessary in some cases. Hopefully, that's not necessary, but it might be. And the goal though, which is the difference than what the culture says is to bring the family and the marriage back together instead of just saying, oh, it didn't work out this time. We'll try with someone else. I totally agree. Marriage isn't for the faint of heart. It's work. And like I said, especially in certain seasons, right? Most of us go through a for worse before we get to a for better. And so hopefully you're embedded in a, in a community that can disciple you correct. You encourage, you offer some relief, give you wise counsel, all of us needed. Yeah. So true. Getting at the end of our time together, what will happen to our culture if we continue down this path of this divorce and dysfunction in our families? And what's the solution? Well, we're already seeing it, Children that just can't function. You know, we are seeing rapid increases in all of the social ills that we supposedly care so much about whether it's teen homelessness or teen suicide or seeing pregnancy, child poverty. I mean, every one of those social ills have something in common and that is there overpopulated with fatherless Children and many of them got fatherless through divorce. This idea that post divorce, you're always going to be getting 50 50 with both parents and seeing them all of the time is an absolute myth for a large portion of Children two years after, you know, I think it's about 40% of kids, two years post divorce, they don't see their, their non custodial parent anymore. Very often. Divorce is what leads to the complete loss of a parent. So we are just not going to be able to fix any of the struggles that we have in society unless we get back to this idea that Children have a natural right to their mother and father lifelong marriage is the only way we give to them, the only way we get to them. And the same sex marriage debate has gotten a lot of attention and rightly so, but it didn't start with same sex marriage. It started with divorce. Divorce was the original legal wrecking ball of the lives of Children. And so one thing we do at them before us is we look for any opportunity we can to fight divorce because it really is a matter of justice for Children. So you guys keep doing what you're doing because these victims need healing. We need the support groups, we need the mentoring. We need people that are helping people resolve the trauma. But we also need advocacy. I am so honestly, I'm so sick of all of these laws on every topic going through the state capitals with nobody, nobody representing the child's perspective. Nobody advocating for. They're right. Nobody's saying, wait a second, the adults might like this but you're gonna shackle Children with lifelong loss. So divorce is a part of that. You know, wherever we can get in on it, we're going to get in on it because it is what has gone on through divorce in the lives of Children is wrecking their lives. It is literally, you know, we talk in the book about how there's three staples of a child, social emotional diet. Three things they need to be nourished on every single day if they are going to arrive at adulthood functional and ready to take on the world. And those three staples our mother's love, father's love and stability. Okay. If you're missing any one of those three things, kids are going to be emotionally malnourished, they're going to be at risk for all those social ills. They're not going to be able to function as well in life. What does divorce do? Takes away half of mom, half of dad and usually stability is totally gone right now. It's only instability as mom or dad re partner, remarry divorce again. Decouple again. Welcome. New half siblings. Welcome. New step slings, lose those siblings through another divorce. Dad moves to another state. Mom moves away. I mean, whatever it is like the stability is just gone for kids of divorce. How do we expect? Why do we expect society to function? Why do we expect to have thriving kids when we are starving our kids and divorce is um is a huge reason why our kids are emotionally malnourished today. I couldn't say it better. And one of the things I see so much is like when you're living a life of vice, you know, bad habits and you have this trauma in your life that hasn't been resolved, it hasn't been healed, hasn't been dealt with. You're going to go on and build broken relationships, dysfunctional relationships, you're gonna have a broken marriage, your family is not going to function in a healthy way. And so often what we've seen and you see these two KT is you're just going to repeat that cycle and that will happen for generations. And so we need to put an end to it. But on the flip side, this is where I think there's so much hope I want to end on this note. Looking at someone like yourself to, if you can build those good habits in your life, if you can heal that trauma, get the professional help that you need, continue to grow in little ways every day, then you're gonna be this healthy, whole person, you're going to go on and build strong relationships, good marriages and you know, healthy families. And that's what I believe is going to transform our culture. But we need both. We need the personal growth side of it. We need the activism, legal side. So I'm so glad you're doing what you're doing. I could never do it, but I'm happy to support you in that work. And however I can, I'm pleased to know that you, you have our support. So thank you so much. And I did want to give you a chance to tell us anything else about them before us, like about your mission and how people can get involved. Well, first, I will say I love this ministry. I'm so grateful you guys exist. I hope that anybody that's listening to this podcast, share with your friends who have gone through a divorce like they need to know they're not crazy. Like that's my biggest concern is that kids have divorced. They think everybody around me thinks that this is awesome. My parents are happy with their new partners or lovers or spouses. My life is wrecked but I just feel like nobody, everyone keeps saying, oh my gosh, you know, your dad's so lucky he found this woman or whatever it is and you are not crazy. You deserve to have a mom and dad who love each other and love you. You are made for that and obviously not obviously, you will experience loss and pain if you're not getting, even if the world doesn't support that you aren't crazy. You are the one that's right for feeling hurt and pain over this. And I will say, you know what you just talked about is repeating the cycle. We often say in my house and at church with our youth group, you become what you behold, whatever it is you're looking at, you will become like that, which is why so many Children of divorce go on to get divorced. So I love what you're doing with the mentors because you need to start beholding something else. You need to start looking at something else. Look and study the families in your world where the mom and dad cherish each other where they absolutely delight in their Children, where they overcome struggles together. Give yourself something new to behold, right? Behold what it is that you want to become and sometimes we can't behold the example that was handed down to a fire own parents. We need to find something else that we can behold so that we can become like that. Because what you've gone through is really painful but you are not doomed. You are absolutely not doomed to repeat what was done to you. You can become something really different from your parents. You can become the family that you wish that you had as a kid. It's not gonna happen by accident. You're gonna need people ahead of you showing you how to become that thing. So behold, beautiful examples of families, right? Hopefully, you've got some in your world. If not, I would really encourage you to go to church somewhere because That is the place where I see the family that are doing the hard work of staying together, um where ads are striving to protect and provide where moms are sacrificing their career sometimes. So they can be present with their kids when they're young, go there, they will probably love to have you even if they're a 15 year old, you know, just walk through the doors and let them love you. So behold what you want to become and there's good examples out there. Thank you for mentioning that. And again, I just want to give you a chance to say anything else you want to about them before us and how people can get involved and help you. Well, you should totally come to them before us dot com and subscribe and you can stay up on all of our advocacy work. But I'll also say that if you want to share your story, I personally bet everybody that shares their story on our website. But then I'm going to encourage you to write under a pseudonym so that you can be raw and honest. One of the big things we do with them before us is we center the stories of kids because otherwise the adults stories get centered or the narrative is centered and it's very hard to fight against adult narrative and pithy phrases like, oh, the kids will be fine or kids are resilient. The thing that does absolutely destroy those narratives is the real life stories of kids who have had to live through those split home situations and the pain and the struggle and very often lifelong harm that ensues. So if you choose to share your story at them before us, I will do my best to change the world with it. How can people buy the book too? I just wanted to make sure that they have that and how can they find you elsewhere online aside from all of our social media tags at the bottom of the website, we're on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Um The book is at Amazon. It's also a Christian books. If you don't want to Feed the Amazon Beast, we do have an audio book. I got to narrate it. They did make me audition, but they did end up giving me the job. That was really nice. So if you'd rather just listen to it, you can listen to it as well. Yeah, get, get the information into you. I think that it will be very validating for a lot of you guys out there. I think that it might give you words to describe how you're feeling. If you are somebody that is counseling kids, it's going to give you a pretty sharp perspective on what this is like for them. If you're a parent who's struggling right now, go into this choice with your eyes wide open, knowing the kind of cost that you will leverage on your child. If you go down this path, this conversation piqued your interest and you want to know more, definitely pick up Katie's book than before us to learn more about the research behind this topic. Really fascinating research that she put in the book when it comes to how divorce affects the Children. And you can just click on the link in the show notes to get that book. If you come from a divorce or broken family, how is your parents' divorce or your broken family affecting you today? It's trickier to answer that question than it might seem. And if your answer is, I don't really know or you don't understand the depth of it, you're not alone, that's actually very common. But in the words of one therapist, when it comes to experiencing healing, naming how you've been harmed is about 70% of the battle. Our new assessment will help you name and diagnose your Brokenness. So you can heal it at its roots, not just treat the symptoms and build the life and relationships that you desire. So if you want to become the best version of yourself, find the love, happiness and freedom that you long for avoid repeating the cycle of dysfunction and divorce, then you need to heal. And the first step to healing is naming and diagnosing the wound. Help you do that. Take our free confidential and research based assessment. Just go to my broken family dot com again, my broken family dot com, answer the questions there and then you can view your results again. Go to my broken family dot com or just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you're not alone, we're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

#091: Infidelity: Healing from Your Spouse or Parent’s Affair | Dr. Christine Bacon

Feeling hopeless, our guest prayed for her husband to die. Earlier in their marriage, she cheated on him. Thankfully, they turned things around and they now have a beautiful marriage. 

In this episode, Dr. Christine Bacon vulnerably shares about her affair but especially about the restoration of her marriage. She even shares the formula she’s discovered for a happy marriage. She also offers advice and answers questions, such as:

• Why do people have affairs?

• Should parents tell their kids about the infidelity? 

• What can a young person do to heal from their parent’s unfaithfulness?

Buy Dr. Bacon’s book, Super Couples: A Formula for Extreme Happiness in Marriage

Take the assessment

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Dr. Christine Bacon

  • Website

  • Podcast

  • Book

• Book: Primal Loss: The Now-Adult Children of Divorce Speak

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

My guest today felt so hopeless in her marriage that she actually prayed for her husband to die. A kid. Do not. Their marriage was such a mess. And early on in marriage, she actually cheated on him. But now thankfully, they turn things around and their marriage is now really beautiful. And in this episode, my guest, Dr Christine Bacon vulnerably shares about her affair, but especially about the restoration of her marriage. She even shares the formula that she's discovered for a happy marriage. She also offers advice and answers questions such as why do people have affairs and should parents tell their kids about the infidelity that happened and what can a young person do to heal from their parents and fidelity? This is such an important topic that we privately discussed with the young people that we serve, but it's really discussed in such a public open and honest way as you'll hear in this episode. So keep listening. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again, I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. This is episode 91 my guest today is Dr Christine Bacon. She's a communication and relationship expert. She's also an author, speaker trainer, longtime university professor and the host of the radio talk show Breakfast with Bacon. Her acclaimed book, The Super Couple, a Formula For Extreme Happiness and Marriage was inspired by a personal mission to help God save one million marriages during her lifetime, Dr Bacon holds three degrees in communication. She received her master's and her phd in interpersonal communication from Regent University and she received her bachelor's during communication from Old Dominion University. Her doctoral dissertation burge marital humor with her own experience and her desire to teach individuals and couples how to build and nurture what Bacon calls super marriages. She and her husband Dan reside in Virginia and enjoy time with their daughters and six perfect grandchildren. So without waiting and no longer, here's my conversation with Dr Christine Bacon, Dr Bacon. So great to have you on the show. Thanks for being here. Thank you for inviting me. I'm always excited to spread truth. Your story is so fascinating. Perhaps your lowest point, you prayed for your husband to die. What happened in your marriage? But you know, gracious, I couldn't. We're going to have our 40th anniversary this year. So there's so much I could talk to you about. So let's start with the happy part there. But we got married in 83. I was pregnant and did everything the uncaf slick way and but we were happy and then we got married in 83. I started having an affair in 1986. Which is really weird because I like to first start out with telling people, most people think an affair happens in an unhappy marriage. That's not the truth affair happen when your boundaries are low. It's like, oh, I love my husband. That means I'm gonna stay with him. I'll just, you know, if someone is flirting with me, you flirt back. And so I didn't seek any relationship, but there's this individual is preying on me, which I now know, you know, he was 10 years older than me. He knew what he was doing. But let's just put that aside. But so I started having these feelings for this man, which I shouldn't have had eventually left my husband too and I was away from him for two years and then we got back together. So I ditched the other guy and then I had a Holy Spirit moment which, you know, I'll leave it up to you to ask me whatever you want to ask me kind of turned back or got back in touch with my faith that I had kind of let you know, go to the wayside, which hold on to that. And then two years on my own really talking to God. And that's when my husband started pursuing me again, saying let's let's get back together, let's reconcile was like, no No, no, no, no, no, no. It didn't work the first time. It's not gonna work sick time. But thank God he was very pursuant. And um so we agreed to get back together. We moved in and, and stop me any time because I could go on with the story. But we moved back in May of 1991. It was kind of like awkward, happy for a while. But the problem is joy is that we never, we never took a marriage class. We never said okay, what do we do differently? And we just kind of fell back into the same place. Not my husband. I mean, he's a good man but he kept your, your slot. You did this, you did that. All those bad names would continue to come out. Any time there was a marriage problem, he would throw that in my face. And of course, when he do that, I'd be like, you know, check and I, you know, it's your fault if you wouldn't be such a jerk. And so we fell into the patterns that so many people fall into. You attack me because you still don't trust me. And then so I'll defend myself and then, And then these patterns happen and we're not building a relationship. So the more that that happened, the less attracted I was to him. And, and so over the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years, he had this hardness and then I had this defensive edge against it because what people don't realize too when you have an affair is, they. I always think that the victim is my husband, which he is. I take full responsibility and have some people going. You're make it sound like we should feel bad for you guys who had an affair. It's not what I'm saying, but those of us that did have our feelings to deal with as well. We have self loathing, lack of respect were, you know, I sinned against God. I can never ever again call myself a faithful wife. Um How did I make such a stupid decision? So all these things. So we are a wounded animal and when anybody brings up our past infidelity, it's like poking on that wounded, like just leave me the hell alone. Sorry. I don't mean to say that, but that's kind of how we feel. And so specifically, you know, when a husband or a wife has been betrayed, like my husband was, he too has to protect himself. And so throwing darts at you or reminding you of your history is often a tactic that people would do. So with 20 years of this show, it got to the point where like I hate you so bad. I got to the point where I was like, I'm in my marriage because I know that marriages until death, I have no escape. I'm a trapped animal. And um I just the only way out of this bad marriages if you die because I don't believe in divorce and I would literally get on my knees at my bed because I, you know, I would say things but my husband was, you know, especially brutal with his words as well. So this is where I'm kind of like it's not just one person, there has to be forgiveness, there has to be kind. And so I would just be like, Lord, please make him die. He's an awful, awful man. He, he says stuff in front of our kids. I said stuff in front of our kids. And so all these things would build up and stop me wherever you want. But in this time, I was God always pressed on my heart, this desire. What, what does it take to have a good marriage? What you'd see these cute couples out there and you're like, you know, I want what they have all their so cute. They must have married the right way. They must have married the right guy. Um I did it the wrong way and you know, if, if my spouse dies, maybe I can get remarried and do it the right way the second time. You know, it sounds morbid but I've said it enough now that I know that many people say privately, I feel the same way and it's, it's shameful. But there are so many people that say I get you because when you're in a bad marriage, you do feel trapped. So, anyway, in this too time I started going to get my bachelor's, my master's, my phd, all in marriage communication. And eventually my phd was the doctoral dissertation was humor as a communication, strategy and military marriage. I don't want to study anything negative or depressing. And I thought, let's look at that and it was such a fun dissertation to do. And every question on my survey had had to do with humor except for one and it simply said write your marriage and, and that was a seven point scale from extremely unhappy and very unhappy and unhappy to the flip side, which was happy, very happy, extremely happy and perfect. And I'm like, oh my gosh. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna quiz you Joey. So out of 644 people, I'll tell you up front, nine people checked off. Perfect. And I'm like, those are still newlyweds having sex every day. They got no clue what a real marriage is like. Let's just get past them. Right. But when I went back and looked at them, those nine people were married 30 years, 20 years, 15 years, I was like, what I had to put that aside. But on my quiz you of the other 630, some people, what percent would you say would check the extremely happy box, like they're not just happy and I'm not just very happy, but they are extremely happy to come home to their spouse. We're talking not even 50 people, right? So you're thinking 60 10% you're thinking about 89% right? I was thinking about 1%. It was 35% 35%. That was like one in three, more than one in three was saying I'm so extremely happy. And I said at my computer crying, look at my, my data and was like, what does that look like? I just want to know what it's like to be happy. And I cried so hard because it was just so foreign to me. Anyway. So after I got my doctorate, the the Lord just kept pushing on my gut. He was like, go go find out, go find out, find out what it was like. Okay. So I went out to discover was extreme happiness accidental or was it, was there a formula? And of course, I expected to find that it was just accidental. They marry the right person and sucks to be you everybody else. You, you know, you chose your one in 100 instead of your one in a million. But as I went through it, I, I found out that there was actually a formula. So I'll hold off right there because I can't keep talking. I know you asked about infidelity. So before I go into the super couple, I'd love to answer any more questions you have about infidelity and you can ask anything you want? Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you for being such an open book and that's, that's so fascinating and I'm excited to dive into the formula more and get your relationship advice and all that, I guess for everyone interested, who kind of wants to be teased on the end of your story. How did you guys in particular turn things around? And then I do have a bunch of questions when it comes to infidelity. But yeah, what if you could tease that out? How did you guys turn things off? So there was a formula. I interviewed about 50 couples on recording but about it only took me about five or this, this pattern materialized before my eyes. As I'm interviewing these couples with a tape recorder, I would ask the same questions to every couple and 100% of the men would answer the questions the same way And 100% of the women would do the same thing. And it wasn't this contrived little. Oh honey, don't say that, you know, these people have been married 2030 years, they've seen each other naked, they've seen each other throw up, right? So they weren't playing any games. But when I'd say things like what are the main ingredients? And I am answering your questions, but I have to give you this. What are the main ingredients in the super couple marriage? Why? What makes you so special? And 100% of the husbands would say, let me tell you about this woman. Let me talk about my wife. She does this, this and this and you know what our marriage is good because she is this kind of a person that was like, wow. And then the women, you know, without going, oh no, stop honey. And they receive it. But then they go, well, you know what? He's being humble. Let me tell you about him because this family would not be what it is without him being able to do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he did this and he did that and I'd be sitting back and I'd see this repeated again and again and again in every home, every home and then, and then I'd ask, okay. So like you guys didn't have any struggles, right? I mean, maybe little things like your mom's check once, but you don't ever have any big problems. And 100% of these couples, the husbands were like, no, I don't know how she put up with me. I did this and I did that and I did this and there was a time when I failed her in this way and then the wives would be like, well, I did this and I did that and I did that. Let me tell you this. Here's, here's the very first most important part of the formula when it was a negative or when it was a positive attribute of the marriage they pointed to the other when it was negative, they pointed to the self. So I just ask you right now. Stop anybody listening, Joey. Are you married? Okay. So, you know, it's like when you think about this marriage or your bad days, right? You have a bad day, you're like, if my wife would just do such and such. Right? Do, do you? And you don't have to answer this, you or any of your listeners, do you quickly point out how he or she can change or do you think about your own ways of improvement? Yeah, that's a good question. And it depends on the day for me. Yeah. Sometimes you know, one of the more virtuous days I can point to myself in the not so virtuous days I can appointed her for sure and virtue is so so important. Actually, one of my super couples mentioned virtue and he said virtue is a disposition to do the good to do the good and, and negate the evil. That's it. To be a virtuous husband, being virtuous wife. What is a good I can do so in happy marriages, they would focus the good on the other and the negative on the self in troubled marriages like mine and my husband's, it was everything that was good was me and everything that was bad was him and vice versa. So really, if I go around, of course, I want to tell you the whole formula if you want. But what changed it for us was I was convicted and I started watching these couples and I sat there and I was embarrassed because I thought I'm such a jerk. I do this and I always insult my husband. I always blame him. I always, and he did the same. So I kind of consciously, kind of subconsciously started taking what I was learning in these interviews and bringing them home to my husband and him not realizing he was a marital guinea pig though he should have because he was married to me. He started reciprocating and our marriage once cycled bad. Your nasty. I'm nasty. You're ugly. I'm ugly. Started to slowly turn the other way. I'm nice. You're nice. You're happy. I'm happy. I'm virtuous. You're virtuous. Unfortunately, that circle it doesn't take long go and start spinning in the opposite direction. It was miraculous and that's when I realized if my marriage could turn around, any marriage could turn around. Wow. Beautiful. Okay. I'm really excited to get into more of that. But before we do infidelity, it's such a huge topic around here with the young people that we serve because so often, you know, their parents marriage fell apart because of infidelity or at least that was a factor in it. I wanted to start with. Do you know what percentage of divorces involve some form of infidelity? Oh, I would say 95 or more, you know, it's not always easy because so many of the cheaters why? And I'll talk to couples and they'll be like, oh, my spouse says they're not seeing someone else. And I'm like, well, they have this sign, that sign, this sign, that sign on that sign and some cheating spouses are very deceitful. Fortunately, for me, that's not one of my traits. I don't know how to lie when my husband found out about my affair was like, yep, you're right. I am and I don't love you, but there's so many other people, I'm not having an affair. It's you, you're stupid. You, you and, and insult the intelligence. So of all the couples, I've worked with the standards that I have in my group, people whose spouses have left them, I would say out of the 270 active ones that I have, there are two who I believe their spouse probably didn't cheat on them, but they left for other reasons. So, what's the math? Two out of 273 100? I mean, that's 1% half a percent. So, yeah, because Joey to get out of our relationship, even in abusive relationships, people get used to pattern, they stay in that situation because they know how to manage it until there's some outside force that forces you to get out and an affair. Whether it's physical or some people say just emotional but emotional is, is equally as powerful as physical, physical. Actually. Just happens when it's like I give up, I don't want to fight these feelings anymore. So your affair starts long before you ever get in bed with the other person. So I would say the vast majority deal with infidelity, whether it's known or hidden. No, that makes sense. And the cases that I'm aware of, like you said, there's just so much deceit and so much dishonesty that goes into it. So that makes a lot of sense that would be present if infidelity is often at the root of divorce. What's at the root of infidelity? What causes that? So, as I said earlier, I mean, I could go all spiritual on you until it's all Satan, right? It's the enemy. But in terms of our human weaknesses, low boundaries, low self esteem, most of the time, it's low boundaries. And like in my case, I didn't see it coming. Preachers. Right. I talked, I have some preachers in my group that, you know, husbands, a preacher and he ended up leaving me for another woman because so many people think, well, I'm happily married. I don't have to worry about that. So preachers will come in and they'll have, you know, couples in front of them or they'll council just the woman or just a man. But they put themselves in a position where they think they're strong and they can handle it, but they connect and this relationship builds into something and they end up having affairs. So I think it is not, it's not just the boundaries, boundaries, is it? But this idea that I'm immune is very problematic because some people have said I just never after they've heard my strategy, but I never thought my husband was one of those types of guy. And I say to them, I'm not gonna let that hurt me. Right. I'm just, but I want to, I want you to hear what you just said to me. My husband's not that kind of guy. You obviously were. What are you calling me? Are you saying I'm bad, I'm a slut and I'm, I'm horror. I'm asleep around. What what? And and they hear it and I was like I said, I was a good Catholic girl. I was happily married and I wasn't that kind of a girl. So that's one of the thinking I want to change in people is good. People have affairs. What, what did Jesus say in the Bible? Right? Is like who's good? But God on the days I do good things. I'm good on the days I do bad things. I'm bad. So that's probably the biggest thing is low boundaries because again, even in, in abusive relationships, abused, the victim's spouse will stay and the abuse is usually not enough to get them out. And let me just say this to so many people say I'm being abused and being abused, it annoys me. It really does because I start correcting them. I said there's a difference between your spouse being mean and a jerk and being abusive because abuse is about power and control and they're often not overpowering you. Like, yeah, if you go to your mom's house, I'm going to take you and I'm going to whatever. Right. So, but in true abusive relationships, the spouse is usually, like, look, you know, these incidents happen only every several months I can handle it and then whatever. But, you know, even in them, they don't leave until there's just all of a sudden there's a better option. There's, They meet someone, they see someone that's now they're attracted and it gives them, oh, those 11 hormones that we could talk about are so powerful. Once we let them this cascade of these love cocktail, emotions that John Gottman calls them. Once the domino effect starts, it's nearly impossible to fight. So we have to stop ourselves before those hormones start clicking in here. Okay. Now it makes so much sense. Well, it's so you're so insightful into this problem. What do you think of Dr Gary Chapman's explanation to where he basically says, you know, in the five love languages that, you know, emotional tank that everyone has just needs to be filled and when it's empty, we're going to seek to fill it in ways that might not be, be healthy. And so we want our spouse to love us and fill our emotional tank. But if they don't, we might seek it in other ways, which could be an affair. That's what a lot of the stories in his book talk about that. Do you think that's maybe one of the main reasons that affairs happen or is there something else going on? So whether it's him and talking about the Love bank and the, or it's Cotman talking about the love cocktail. What I find is always, we're all speaking the same language because in my super couple formula, the sacred formula as a C R E D, the s is the most important. It's selflessness. And so simply put, if, if I am meeting my own needs but not yours, it's a problem and then happy in unhappy marriages. Let's go there. We meet the needs of the self. I wake up in the morning and make my own cup of coffee and make sure I get enough sleep. I do what I need to do. And this might not be bad things. But if I'm taking care of my needs and Danny is taking care of his, that's still much more selfish. But that we have to be selfless. If I wake up in the first cup of coffee I make is my husband's or I make sure to, you know, turn my alarm off or keep the lights off because he wants to sleep in or whatever. So do I put his needs before my own or my, my needs before his, when you're talking about Gary Chapman's the five love languages or Emerson Cedric's Love and respect they're both about or all these books about, do I meet my needs or do I meet their needs? So, my love language is quality time and my focus. And why are you never talking to me, Dan, why you're never listening to me? That's, it's nothing bad about that, but that's still focused on my needs. And my thinking about Danny's love language is acts of service. Am I doing? Did I mow that lawn for him? Did I go and massage him? Did I go and make, make whatever it was he wants me to do. So, yeah, I love what Chapman says because if we discover what the other person's love languages and we seek to meet their needs, that's what we're supposed to do. I'm married to you. I will seek your needs. You seek mine. And that way we're both having our needs met by the other. No, I love that. Yeah. And teaching each other how to fill those needs I think is, is so so beautiful. And that's why I love the work that you're doing. Would you say, I mean, your story is just the answer to this. But for everyone listening who maybe doesn't know, you know, everything about your story is a marriage doomed once infidelity occurs, you know, can you recover from it? No. You know, I'm a Lector at church and one of the things I do is I'm able to look out and see all the people in the pews and, because I'm a marriage coach, I'm like, I've worked with that couple, I've worked with that couple, I've worked at that couple and they're all together and I know which ones have had affairs but you don't Because they don't tell you and they're not going to tell their neighbors and they're not going to tell their families most of the time. And so you look at couples, see you had an affair. See, they're divorced. I'm like, ah, but you don't know about these other 2030, 50, 50 couples here that had affairs and they're happily married. Yeah, you can. And people do all the time work through them. So, so what does it take to recover from that, from, from a cheating situation for both of the spouses? Because, you know, let's assume one didn't cheat and one did. I know in some cases both do. But I'm curious, what does it take to recover from cheating? It takes every fiber of your being because both of you were, had trust broken the betraying spouse again, as I said earlier has all these self doubts. And when this love cocktail, like kicks in and you have all these feelings when you first met your wife, you probably have the love cocktails like, oh my gosh. I'm so in love and hmm. So there are 11 hormones but I call it love cocktail then, but when it's an affair, I call it the lust cocktails the same 11 hormones. But they're, one of them is a hormone that elevates your risk taking. It's like, oh, no, it's okay. We can have sex. We won't get caught, we won't get pregnant. Another one is low irritability. When you're with this person, nothing irritates you. It's just no big deal. Even the way they chew with their mouth open is so adorable. You know, that's just, it's okay. Right. But when that wears off, which takes typically about two years, six months to two years, you're like, oh my God, shut your mouth. I don't want to see you chewing like that and you're irritating me and, and, and all these hormones. But one of those hormones is called vasopressin and it's called the monogamy hormone. And it's specifically high when vasopressin touches testosterone, which means more stronger for males even though women have testosterone to. But when, And that's the person is elevated, it's called the monogamy hormone because men are visually stimulated, right? You can see your wife naked, you're totally ready, right. I'm game. But when you're in that love cocktail and those 11 hormones are elevated, you could have naked women walking around you and you won't even notice them because your object of your affection is right in front of you. Like I don't care about anyone else. So when I had an affair and that lust cocktail kicked in and I saw this person as like, just, just great. Right. There's nothing in the earth. My husband can do your wife that can make you think they're better. That's just the way God made the hormones. Um, so when you're coming out of an affair, you have to work through those emotions because so many times, you know, I'm sitting there thinking, oh my gosh, the other guy was a better man. I'm stuck with my husband. I got to be with him, but I'm going to do this. So the things that actually keep you married are the decision. So once the hormones were off, let me just say it's the difference between what we would categorize as falling in love and being in love, right? So falling in love is I'm just in love, I'm in love with you versus love. So after the hormone wears off, you make a choice. If you and your wife have been together for more than two years, you know what I'm talking about, you're choosing to love her every day. And so that's what you have to do after an affair, you have to work through. And when I counsel or coach couples, I'll tell the husband or the wife that was betrayed. Look, I'm just gonna be straight up with you. Your spouse is still going to be thinking about the om or the O W as we call him, the other woman other man. I know you don't want to think about that, but you, you can close your eyes and stick your head in the stand or you can understand this and go with it. You want your marriage to work or not, but it's not to throw it in their face when they're like crying in bed at night because they've been out of this relationship for six months, but they're still dreaming of the other person. And that is pretty humbling. If you, if your wife, you know, you're laying in bed with your wife, you know, she's thinking of another man that's pretty humiliating or vice versa. So, teaching them, here's what it's going to look like. But eventually those hormones balance your mind balances. You will logically look at it like I had to go. That guy is not a good guy because he had an affair with a married woman. He knew, you know, even though I had an affair with a married man, I looked at him like I had to look at him logically and go, your ethics aren't as high as I would like to believe. I can't trust you because you, you're a cheater just like I was right. So you got to navigate what is truth and what is worth working. And so I will work with couples and you have a history together. You have Children, you have families, you devastate your Children if you divorce. But once you work through this and you reset logic and emotion, faith and reason. You will see that the feelings can come back for the spouse that you once couldn't stand because you're looking at him like, wow, you're stuck with me even though I did this or I did that or, or the other way around you, you look like you came back to me even though you already had someone else and you could have your a big enough person to admit your fault. You know. So how do we see you? Do we see you in that positive light or do we see you in the negative light? That's a choice. You have to train your mind. Wow. Okay. And I know you offer resources to help recover from these sorts of situations from Infidelities. So we'll definitely offer those at the end. But I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about, yeah, you know, from the perspective, I would say of the Children of the young people who come for from these situations. So would you say, should parents tell their kids about the infidelity? That's something we kind of debate around here. Not unless the kids found. So I have a sadly have a friend who recently had an affair and her Children overheard and the kids are upset. How could you have done this mommy? How could you have done this? That's devastating because the kids, they're so innocent. They believe in Santa Claus they can't comprehend this. What a child should be told is what a child can handle. His. Mommy and daddy are having a hard time, mommy and daddy are fighting, but we can get through this. Do you know how you fight with your siblings? You know, you guys, sometimes you're pulling each other's hair out and we have to ground you and then sometimes you're playing really nicely. So that's like Agia pro pre it, you get a teenager and it's the same type of things like, you know, your mom and I are struggling marriages like this. Um If you could, could you pray for us. And so if the child says, well, my friend saw mommy out with another man, you know, or they saw you, you know, daddy out with another woman, I would never lie to the child because then they can't trust you. So whatever they know, you never lie to the child, but you never give them more information than they need. And it's like, well, yes, daddy did in fact have a relationship with someone else, but that relationship is ending and we're working out, you know. So that's, that's what I would say. Okay. So not voluntarily bringing it up. But if they knew about it, if they ask, you can set aside curiosity and kind of leave it at that until maybe they have more questions. Let me ask you if I took a knife and stabbed you in the chest. That would hurt. Right. So, when you find out your spouses had an affair that hurts. Right. Why would you want to stab your Children in the chest too? Yeah. Okay. So let me just play devil's advocate for a secondary. I know a lot of the spouses who might be listening to this, especially parents who are divorced. They might be thinking, well, I want to give my child my Children some sort of an explanation for why dad is no longer living with us. What would you say in that case is appropriate? Because it might seem, and I've heard parents say this, it might seem like your mom or if it's dad being kind of this, this ruthless creature who's kicking the other parent out of the house for apparently no reason when you know, there actually is a reason there. So I'm curious what you would say to someone who would say something like that. So kind of get me to the beginning question again. Yeah. So, you know, a parent might disclose to their Children about some sort of infidelity or affair because they're afraid that their Children may think that they're randomly kicking the other spouse out of the house. So, so again, you tell the child, you always have to give them encouragement first. Just like, look, I want, I want daddy back. I'm still fighting for our marriage. But yes, he made this bad mistake. You know, if you put it in that. It's like he made a mistake or I wouldn't have ever, I was forced into this divorce. But I want you to love your daddy because just like you make mistakes, daddy's makes mistakes too. Or mommy, you know, whichever one it is. So you, but see what happens. Joey is a lot of us and anybody listening, check yourself because you know what I'm talking about is really, I want my, I didn't know that I was a good spouse and they were the bad one. It's like, well, you know, if your dad hadn't have left me and they almost want to tell the Children so that I'm the good parent and that's the bad parent. But they totally forget your kid loves both of you. Even kids whose parents are in prison. I worked with those kids, even kids whose parents are abusive. I've talked to those kids. They want mom and dad together. They want to believe this is possible. So even though you have proved that the other one in the eyes of the world is the worst one. That's not how it's coming out in your kid's head. You just need to say we are both lod people. We've both made mistakes. But yes daddy left. I wish I could get them to stay. I wish I could have gotten mommy to stay. You know, so they can know that your fight you fought or you are continuing to fight for your marriage and then just tell the kids, you know, mommies and daddies do get back together, you know. So, so pray, pray for this. Although I tell you the cheating spouse, the leaving spouse often says, don't you tell our kids to pray for our marriage to reconcile? Because it's never gonna happen? You're giving the kids false hope. The Bible says, hope never disappoint. So that's what I usually tell them. I'm gonna give them hope. You go ahead and throw their little hearts on the ground and tell them not. And I'm gonna let them pray with whatever they want to say. If that makes them feel better, I think we'll get back together, then I'll let them do it and it just angers the leaving spouse. But you're not saying it to be vindictive. You're saying it to be like, I'll be darned if I'm going to tell my kids not to pray that we get back together because it convicts leaving spouse. Yeah. Oh Yeah. And from the hundreds of young people that we worked with, even if there's not this explicit conscious desire, often on an unconscious level, there's this desire that mom and dad would get back together. And even if that, even if it's the years later, there's this hope that we hold on out, you know that okay, maybe mom and dad will get back together, maybe things will, you know, the family will come back together, things can be healed. So So, I certainly just, my parents on February 23rd would have been my parents 60th wedding anniversary and they're both still alive and they divorced when I was 14. And even though back then I said I wanted it because I used to fight with my dad as I've matured. I'm like, no, I want my parents back together and I'm still hoping that maybe before they die they will. So, yeah. And if, if God wills it, it will happen. Yeah. So you get that. Yeah. What would you say to a child who that one or both of their parents were unfaithful and it really affected them, like they're really scarred by it. What would you say to them? How could they heal from that? How old? I mean, typically the people listening to this podcast typically or anyone from early teens to in their early 30s. So I know it's a big range. But no, no, no, it's good. They're just not little kids. My answer is there's a lot of Brokenness in this world and Brokenness does not mean it has to be replicated and it does not mean it can't be healed. And, you know, usually by that age, those age groups have made some big mistakes. They've had sex outside of marriage, they've broken up, they've had their own little cheating on a boyfriend or girlfriend, they've, they've made mistakes so they start understanding the humanity of themselves. And so I would help them compare their parents Brokenness to their own. But then again, going back to the hope conversation saying, But again, we learn from our mistakes. Sometimes the mistakes we made make us the better persons that we are my affair. 30 some years ago, 36, years ago, brought me to this profession. Today, brought me to that book. Got me to the platform is helping me save marriages. It is God is redeeming my sin. And so I would say to those Children, the same thing first, don't stop praying for your parents to reconcile, but look at them as the same as you are just a flawed and broken human being who made a mistake? Forgiveness goes a long way. That's so true. Thanks for saying all that. And what would you say to the young person who is just terrified of walking down the same path? Um I know, you know, we hear that a lot from the young people that we work with that. They don't want to repeat the same mistakes they saw in their parents' marriage. But so often they, you know, for one reason or another, they kind of unconsciously walk down the same path. But what can they do to avoid repeating those same mistakes in their own relationships? First thing they can do is realize that they're not gonna not make some of the same mistakes. You know, I'm just, you're taught how to handle conflict by your parents you're taught how to wash the dishes by your parents. You're taught how to interact with family and friends and spend the holidays. You're taught everything by your parents and you gotta take the good and get rid of the bad. My daughter and I was a great mom. I had other mothers say to me, if I could be half the mom you were. But my youngest daughter was like, I don't ever want to be a mom like you were in terms of conflict. My daughter's very introverted and she always calls me a bull in a china shop because I'm like, you see, I'm not shot. I'm like, I'll give you this and that and I'm opinionated and that makes her pull back. So she's like, I will never be like you in that way. I'm never going to raise my voice and she doesn't raise her voice too much. But then she's gone so far to the opposite direction. She doesn't discipline her kids at all. And I've had to say to her, your kids are walking all over you. Your oldest disrespect you, blah, blah, blah. So what I'd say to them is you're going to make mistakes, cut yourself some slack for crying out loud, but pick and choose the things that you want to repeat, the things you don't realize you're gonna make your own set of mistakes just trying to avoid your parents' mistakes. So it's got to be this balance of okay, this is gonna happen. Now, the number one thing in this is secular research and then obviously Christian as well. But secular research take, take the God out of this. The number one thing that will save a marriage is to vow to understand the indestructibility of marriage. It's like a lot of my couples would say the D word. We don't even say the D word we said on our engagement. We would never be allowed to say it, even joke about it, even threatened it. We'd never say the D word. And when you go into it and know that this is for life, it changes things when I left my husband and then I came back when he asked me back in 2000 or 1991. It's actually October of 1990. I remember standing in My living room in New Hampshire because my husband was currently stationed in South Carolina thinking to myself, Okay. The first time I left my husband, you know, I married him, I was 18, pregnant and stupid. Everybody would understand why I'm getting out of this marriage. I'd have been out. But this time you're eight years older, you know what you're getting into this time. It's for life. And I never knew back then that vow, that vow is what sustained me in the times that I wanted him to die or hated him. It's like I'm in this for life. There's no out clause. There's no get out of jail card and when you know that you will weather any storm, any storm, every storm, every storm so good. And what would you say to parents listening? Who maybe they're considering a divorce, maybe they're separated right now or just really struggling in their marriage. What's your advice for them? Especially if cheating was involved. What's your advice when it comes to parents? Considering divorce? A read Layla's book, Primal Loss. The now adult Children of divorce, speak Layla Miller. It is, it'll rip your heart out. And she has given that book to people. They have, she said some people actually changed their decisions to divorce because of like this is gonna hurt my kids. Um One of the things that I read in there that I will say to those people right now is one person said divorce is a bloodless sacrifice, deacon Harold Burke Sievers was on my radio show once and he is an adult child of divorce. And he said the most telling thing there is divorce is like putting your own cross down and forcing your Children to pick it up. So if you're a parent and you're considering divorcing their parent do not be so arrogant as to think your kids will be okay and your kids will have no pain and your kids won't mind being in a house with their dad and another woman and watching them have to sleep in the same room or their mom and another man do not think your Children will be okay with that. So when you look at and say your Children want the two of you to figure this the heck out, you said you, you right now would jump in front of a bus to save your kid's life. You would take a bullet for those kids. And yet if you divorce, you are inflicting the biggest bullet you can on your kids don't think that you're not. And so I kind of just put them right between the eyes. So you need to figure this out and then I pull back and I'm like, but I get it, I get it. I knew the pain I wanted out and let me work with you, find someone you can work with that can help you get past the season of darkness because you can get past it. So you have to do the same thing with those parents. You have to give them hope. There's nothing that you're going through right now that cannot be resolved. I've had abusive couples where the abuser stops abusing and they've gotten back together and they've had happy marriages, extra kids. Yeah, that's beautiful. I think there's this narrative in our culture that can't happen, but it certainly is true because you've seen it and help couples reach that point. That's amazing. Look at people in prison, we say, oh, they should be good. And yet so many people like, oh, they're an ex con that is a human being. And if you believe that they can live and not make those same mistakes and then they won't. But you judge them a little bit more harshly than you judge yourself. So, yeah. No, they can learn and they can be good broken. But he'll human beings just like you. And so I'm like, really adamant about changing people's frames of mind. It starts in the head. Yeah. No, it's beautiful and it does take a lot of work and I know you're not simplifying it. But um but if you have the right guide, the right mentor, the right coach, you certainly can get there. And we see that with athletes or world class musicians, right? There's always these mentors, these guides behind them. And so it should be the same if we want great marriages. Do I want to go back to the formula before we say goodbye here. Please tell us more about it. I'm really excited. So you interviewed all these couples, you came up with this formula for a great marriage. Teach us as much as you can in the short time that we have. Okay. So the acronym Sacred, I always joke that was either going to be sacred or scared, but I figured Sacred would sell more books. Um When I asked them, these main ingredients, there were some things that these couples said um that they thought were parts of a super marriage. But there were things that I saw that they weren't able to articulate until later. Some of my couples came and so did you ever find out about us? What do you think? And I told them formula. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's it. Because not all of them said selflessness. Actually, most of them didn't. But that's all I saw. And so the A I saw was attentiveness. None of them said that. But here's what I saw in unhappy marriages. You pay attention to what your spouse does poorly in happy super marriages, you pay attention to what they do. Well, so if your spouse comes home in a bad mood, slams the doors like rail in a bad marriage, you're like, you're such a jerk. See why don't even bother marrying you? But in a happy marriage and a super marriage, they go, you know what? That is a good person who's having a bad day. So they flip it. So what do you pay attention to in your spouse where they succeed, where they failed the things you paid attention to when you were dating and fell in love or you pay attention to the fact that they don't keep a clean house or, you know, they have bad breath in the morning or they, they're snarky or they're bad communicators, you know, whatever you can pick and choose because everybody's got a package of both. So the second one, the third one was c which is communication that's all my degrees are in communication. How we say what we say. Um I talk about the differences between the male and the female brain. That's huge because if every woman expect her husband to be just like her and have these conversations where they look into your eyes and you can talk for hours. A male rather shoot himself than have to listen to someone talk all the time because most guys are like, dude, get to the point, get to the point you're killing me, right? And the women are like what all my girlfriends can hang with the girls, the girls, you know. So um I talked about the compartmentalization of the male brain and the and the females circular kind of thinking. I talk about the emotion centers, you know, a female's emotion centers attached to her language center. So when she feels something, she's able to articulate it, but a man's emotion center are attached to his spinal cord. So when a man feels an emotion, he's got to move his body and stuff. So how we say we, what we say, how we communicate, our feelings is so diverse depending on our gender and then our personality type. And and again, am I going to communicate with my husband? The way I want him to communicate or the way that he wants me to communicate goes right back to that selflessness, right? Then ours respect. I don't really need to build on that one too much other than to say our society used to have respect for people. And now you can look at our politicians, our leaders profanity in the White House. You would have never heard that 50 years ago. But there's no respect for self. Look at all this cutting, look at all these horrible things. So we have no respect for self respect for others, no respect for authority, no respect for our spouses and, and respect is to find as the esteem for the value or the worth of a person. And if I don't have value or esteem for my husband's worth, it's gone because if I don't respect him, don't care how I treat him. So respect is huge. And then the kind of the last two E N D sacred, the E is encouragement. I went into my super couples asking questions about pessimism and optimism because my husband's a huge pessimist. And I thought that's what I was seeing is like, you're making me, he's toxic. It was toxic. And I found out that all my super couples were actually a pessimist, married to an optimist. And I was like, what, what am I looking at then? And then after I studied them more, I realized what I was looking at was the dichotomy between encouragement and discouragement. Super couples were extremely encouraging one another. It's like Jimmy, if, if anybody could run for mayor, you could run for mayor. If anybody could start their own business. You can, it's like, you know, Christine, if anyone could write this book, you can the super couples encourage one another and my husband, I love him, but he had to train him. This is probably one of his weak areas. He's like, well, yeah, of course, you could write a book but most books fail. You know, of course, you could start a business but most of them lose money and I'm like, you're killing me. And so I had to like push past his toxic thinking, which eventually my positive success brought him along. But so encouragement. Do you encourage one another? And again, that's biblical encouragement. And the Bible encourage one another with the kids and just be mighty encourage, mentioned encouragement greatly come and encourage them. You can do this. We can do this. I know we cheated. I know our marriage is bad but we can do this. We can do this for the kids anyway. And then the last one ties it all together. The last one is deliberateness because I remember asking one of my super couples, are you just naturally selfless? And her name was Brooke. And she's like, no, you're just as selfish as everybody else. She goes. It's just that when I wake up in the morning, I think to myself, what can I do for Chuck today? What can I do to put his needs before my own? How can I not be selfish? And she said, but that intentionality breeds habit. And eventually super couples are habitually putting their spouse before themselves. So you have to be deliberate. People who are dealing with affairs have to be deliberate and going. Okay. I know. Logically, here's what I'm feeling. I know logically, here's what's going to happen. I know logically, you know, we got to get through this spot would be deliberate, but I'm gonna do this anyway. I don't love you right now. I don't want to kiss you right now, but I'm gonna do it anyway. You know, so that's the formula. It's pretty powerful and it works. Yeah. Amazing. Well, if people want to learn more, how can they learn more about that? I know you have your book and please tell us about the other resources that you offer. Well, so just go to my website and you'll get everything there. It's breakfast with bacon dot com and you can also find Dr Christine bacon dot com. But it's easier to remember breakfast with bacon. Everybody always says that, that, that breakfast with bacon lady, what's her name? So you never remember my name. Just remember breakfast with bacon dot com. And you can find out about my book. We have an audio book, e book, you know, the paper book, but also coaching resources can, you know, work with you. I also have a standards group, the podcast. So you start there. It'll take you to the podcast. It'll take you to everything. But the standards group, I definitely want to make a plug for in this last minute that we have is standards are people who are standing for reconciliation while their spouse is cheating on them has had an affair, has divorced them, has a child with somebody else. And these are people who are standing on their vows saying well, until death do us part. Even if you're married and you've been with the other woman for 12 years, I'm gonna stand because I'm your covenant spouse. And so there are so many people are listening right now. That are what we call separated, faithful. And they're like, yes, that's what I want. I want to say to you, you're not delude, you're not wrong, you're not Pollyanna ish. There are thousands of people who are standing for reconciliation. You can come join our group. We will encourage you. You know, you will have other people who think like you and we've had now we start out with four people in my living room in 2016. We now have over 275 people in 40 states, 10 countries. We've had over 15 reconciliations already of people who once said I will never get back with you. They got back so good. Well, Dr Christine Bacon, thank you so much for your time. I want to give you the last word. What encouragement when you give to parents, listening to even young people listening who? Yeah, just are in these broken families who maybe feel stuck and discouraged in life. What would, what hope would you give to them and closing? There's so much be selfless and, and sacrifice your own needs for the needs of your Children, sacrifice your own needs for the greater good, for the community, for your spouse, for God. And you will be rewarded for that. You will probably be rewarded on this earth, but you'll definitely be rewarded in heaven because every single thorn that you have on earth, you will exchange for a jewel in heaven. Everything is not forgotten. So carry your cross and if you want me, I'll help you carry it with joy. So some questions for you to reflect on if you are married, how would you rate your marriage? How would you rate your marriage and if you're not married, how do you want to be able to rate your future marriage? Like obviously, you wanted to be as great as it can be. And so the question really is for both people in both situations is how are you going to close the gap between where you are today and where you want to be? And to do that, I just want to say check out Dr Christine Bacon's resources to help you. And again, you can go to breakfast with bacon dot com, breakfast with bacon dot com or just click on the link in the show notes If you come from a divorce or broken family. How is your parents' divorce your broken family affecting you today? It might be trickier to answer that than it seems. And if your answer is, I don't really know or you don't really understand the depth of it, you're actually not alone. That's very common from what we've seen. But in the words of one therapist, when it comes to experiencing healing, naming how you've been harmed is about 70% of the battle. Our new assessment will help you name and diagnose your Brokenness. So you can heal it at its roots, not just treat the symptoms and build the life and relationships that you desire. So if you want to become the best version of yourself, find the love and happiness and freedom that you long for and avoid repeating the cycle of dysfunction, divorce in your own life, then you need to heal. And the first step to healing is really naming and diagnosing the wound to help do that. You can take a free confidential and research based assessment. Just go to my broken family dot com, my broken family dot com, answer the questions there and then view your results again. Go to my broken family dot com or just click on the link in the show notes. That's a wrap. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents to force or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

You Are Not to Blame

2 minute read.

This story was written by an anonymous contributor at 26 years old. Her parents separated when she was 7. She gave permission for her story to be shared.

Her STORY

My father may or may not have had an affair with his secretary (cliche I know, but it was never confirmed). He and my mother separated and he immediately moved in with the other woman. My brothers and I had 7 days on, and 7 days off with each parent. My eldest brother was traumatized the most, I suppose since he was 10 when it happened. His rage turned into violence and sexual abuse against me, which went on for a couple of years until I told my father about it. He didn't believe it happened but it freaked out my brother and so the sexual abuse stopped and was replaced with only violence. The most terrifying memory I have was waking up to my brother straddling me with his hands around my throat, screaming that he would kill me. I was 15 at that time.

Going back to the divorce — my mother eventually found a condo. She was extremely manipulative, violent, and verbally abusive. Most of this was a result of her fury that she could never get pregnant (my 2 brothers and I were adopted) but only 3 years after adopting me, she was left without a husband but with 3 kids. She often used her status as an "adoption mom" as a way to "prove her love and kindness and empathy". It drove me mad.

My eldest brother chose to be with our father full-time when he was 14. I ended up doing the same at 15 because her manipulation became too much for me to handle. As an example of her manipulation -- she encouraged me to get a job at a bakery in the mall where she worked (I really didn't want one yet, I had enough going on at that time, but she said I needed one) because she was friends with the owner. I had just turned 15 but the legal working age was 16. He agreed to hire me anyway because she was his friend. She took me to the bank to open a joint account but — here's the kicker — I was not permitted to have access to it. Only she would have the card, and she would use it as she pleased.

Anyways I left shortly after that and opened a new bank account.

Moving on to my father — his new girlfriend moved in with us quite early on. I think it was a year or two after the divorce. In the beginning, I quite liked her but soon it became clear that she did not like children. She had a daughter of her own but she was approaching 30 years old. I constantly overheard her at night telling my father about what bad people my brothers and I were (mind you, my second brother who is 6 weeks older than me is autistic) and that she would be happier if we were gone. This was a nearly daily occurrence.

At her request, I was given all the housework as chores. My brothers and I would do the dishes together but all the other cleaning — bathroom, vacuuming, washing the table and counters, windows, washing the floor, etc. — was my responsibility twice a week. This doesn't sound like much but I also had high school from 8 AM to 3 PM every weekday, worked Thursday and Friday from 4 PM to 9 PM, and weekends from 9 AM to 6 PM, plus I had homework. Somehow I came out of all of this with good grades. But when my stepmother would come home (she came home an hour before my dad), she'd inspect my cleaning and relay all the mistakes back to my father, which infuriated him and ultimately fed her lies about what a horrible person I was.

Meanwhile, I was allowed no social time, I was not allowed to go see friends during the week, nor could I go see them on the weekend since I was working. When I finished school, I had to walk home and immediately call my father. (These were the days when many people still didn't have cellphones, only landlines.) I had to call immediately and he would see which number was calling him so he'd know that I had come straight home and not gone to see anyone else.

My "fondest" memory of his control (perpetuated by his lovely girlfriend) was when he locked the pantry doors and didn't allow us to access the food without permission because I had once come home from school during lunch and cooked myself ramen in the microwave. He was furious because he planned on taking it to work the next day (which I did not know). We could afford to buy another ramen from the grocery store that was one block down the street. But I digress. That lock remained on the door for years.

Another very fond memory of mine was when I wrote a letter to my father about all the verbal abuse and control at the hands of my stepmother. I folded the note and wrote "dad — this is for you and no one else. please don't show anyone." I left it on my desk and went to my mother's for the week (this was when I was 14). He read it, showed it to her, then sat my brothers and me down at the kitchen table to discuss it. They had written the letter with me but of course, the confrontation scared them so they threw me under the bus. I was subsequently locked in my room for 2 days. I didn’t eat or drink anything. I ended up getting so sick I vomited. When that happened my stepmother permitted me to leave my room to eat supper on day three. I was still sick but she accused me of intentionally vomiting the food she had prepared.

That last story reminds me of the time my father found my diary and read it out loud to my brothers and stepmother while I sat idly by at the kitchen table with my head in my hands, humiliated.
I can keep going with stories like this but let's just say they made it very clear for many years that at 18 my brothers and I were no longer welcome in the house. They went so far as to buy me pots and pans as a Christmas gift when I was 17 and stick a note on it that said "take the hint." And on my 18th birthday, I got a 2-pack of mugs that were given as a free gift with every purchase over $100 at our local grocery store. It was not wrapped and had a sticky note on it that said "happy b-day, dad".

Anyways. Needless to say, at 18 we all moved out. My eldest brother still has a tight relationship with him but my middle brother and I are completely out. It has now been 8.5 years since we moved out. Many times I attempted to make amends with both our mother and father but it didn't work out. They rejected me. "I don't have a daughter" are the words that struck me the hardest.

HOW THE DIVORCE MADE her FEEL

Extremely traumatized. Had my parents stayed together I would have never been abused by my brother. Probably not by my parents either. And definitely not by my stepmother. It was extremely traumatized. After I moved out at 18, I ended up with a severe cocaine addiction that led to me putting myself in a position to be raped. Two days after that I attempted to kill myself and spent a week in the hospital recovering.

But I have moved on.

HOW THE DIVORCE IMPACTED her

I have made a promise to myself to NOT be my parents to my own kids. I have three of them now. Reliving the trauma of my childhood and adolescence helps to remind me of what kind of parent I will never, ever, EVER be to them

ADVICE FOR SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS JUST SEPARATED OR DIVORCED

It's not your job to comfort your parents. But if you see that they are hurting, it's okay to sit beside them and just hold their hand in silence. It can bring them comfort, but most of all it can make you feel closer to them.

If it's a very traumatic separation (separation, in general, is traumatic, so the level of trauma you will experience is relative to your life experience thus far), seek therapy. If you can speak to your school guidance counselor, a teacher your trust, or another family member, that's a good place to start. I found a lot of comfort in sharing my life stories with my most trusted educators at school.

And most of all, remember this — you are not to blame. You are an innocent bystander caught in the crossfire, and nothing else.

---

Are you interested in sharing your story with Restored?  If so, click the button above. Sharing your story can help you begin healing. 

Be assured: Your privacy is very important to us. Your name and story will never be shared unless you give explicit permission.

#090: How’s Your Parents’ Divorce or Broken Family Affecting You Today?

How is your parents’ divorce or your broken family affecting you today? 

If your answer is “I don’t really know” or you don’t understand the depth of it, you’re not alone. That’s actually very common. But in the words of one therapist, “When it comes to experiencing healing, naming how you’ve been harmed is about 70% of the battle.”

In this episode, we unveil a new tool that will help you name and diagnose your brokenness, so you can heal it and build the life and relationships you desire. 

Take the assessment

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Previous Episodes:

  • Episode 11: I Thought My Parents’ Divorce Didn’t Affect Me | Jennifer Cox

  • Episode 46: Becoming a Great Parent: Learning from Your Parents’ Virtues and Vices | Miranda Henkel

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free guide, 7 Tips to Build a Thriving and Divorce-Proof Marriage!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

For those of you come from broken or divorced families. How is your parents divorce or your broken family affecting you today. And if your answer is, I don't really know or you don't understand the depth of it. You're not alone. That's actually very common. I've heard that a lot. It's a trickier question to answer than it might seem. But in the words of one therapist, when it comes to experiencing, healing naming how you've been harmed is about 70% of the battle. So in this episode we unveil a new tool that will help you name and diagnose your Brokenness. You can heal it at its roots, not just the symptoms and build the life and relationships that you want. Keep listening. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce, separation or broken marriage so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joy Pontarelli, thank you so much for listening. This is episode 90. My co host today is actually a restored teammate, our director of content Miranda Hinkle and Miranda a little background on her. She was born in Caracas Venezuela, although she spent the majority of her childhood in North Carol When she was 10, her family moved back to Venezuela where her life was changed forever when her parents divorced a year later and shortly after that, she and her younger sister moved with their mother back to the United States and settled in Charleston South Carolina Miranda graduated with a psychology degree from Clemson University in 2015 moved back to Charleston where she met her husband and married him in 2020? They now reside in florida where her husband is stationed with the U. S. Navy. She works for restored to help other Children of divorce heal and grow Miranda enjoys the beach beer, trying to understand poetry and poking fun at her husband. So with that, let's dive into the show. This is such a common problem that we hear that people like us who come from divorced or broken families, they don't recognize or at least don't fully understand how their past trauma affects them today. And that's I think a big problem and to take a little bit further, they might recognize symptoms like, oh I struggle with anxiety or depression or I'm addicted to, you know, alcohol or pornography, but they might not understand the root cause. So they don't understand like that their family trauma stuff that's happened to them in the past is actually contributing to that struggle today. And if I think the danger to not recognizing that is that we might be tempted to merely treat symptoms instead of addressing the root cause. And if you do that, what I've seen at least is that you're just always going to be treating symptoms. You know, we see that a lot in the medical world whether that's like popping pills or going on this or that program that never actually gets you a result for the root cause. It just like treats the symptoms. And so I wanted to hear from you though, like what um what happened in your past, that kind of woke you up to realize that a lot of, you know, your struggles were some from at least the breakdown of your parents, marriage and the family trauma that you had been through. Yeah, I think what you're saying is so true and we see that over and over again in our work, just how we, a lot of us, you know, from broken families walk around without understanding how our parents divorced or how our broken family has affected us and then we don't know, we can't connect the symptoms to the issue. And so it kind of puts us in a really tough position to find healing. And so awareness is a really key factor. And for me personally, it wasn't until I was in my first dating relationship that I started to really notice the symptoms of distrust and anger and just a lot of dysfunctional habits when it came to romantic relationships. And so the symptoms became just really acute and um that prompted me to look for help, which came in the way of counseling. Really excellent counselor, I do advocate that for everyone if they can. Um and I know that that is part of our mission with restored is to connect people to to high quality counselors. So, through the work of our counselor of my counselor, I I was able to make that connection because, you know, she was wise enough to see that I was struggling, you know, relational e especially, and she kind of could see how those wounds came from my parents divorce years before. And so through our conversations, you know, it definitely took a while for me to truly believe that that was true. But I think over time in our work together, I began to see the connection and with that awareness, I was able to work on really treating the symptoms at their root. No, that makes so much sense, and I'm really glad that you had that experience. I mean, it sounds like a painful thing to go through, but at the end it turned out to help you help he'll help you grow to help you become a better stronger person. It shocked you though, didn't it? Like it just didn't occur to you before that, or maybe sharing this with me, Like it didn't occur to you before that that that would be a possibility, like you said, it took you time to kind of wrap your head around that. Um is that right? Absolutely, yeah, I was, I think, you know, many of us are just reluctant, you know, we don't want to revisit painful memories. So there's kind of that protective element, a lot of us block uh those things out because it's painful and uncomfortable to consider. So there's that and then I think we we as Children, you know, we don't want to put our parents in a position where we're blaming them for anything. And so where there's kind of that protective instinct and so there's a lot of factors that can work against us recognizing how our families have, you know, led to us dealing with these symptoms. And of course there is not a matter of blame. It's just a matter of acknowledging the truth. And you know, jesus said like the truth was that you free, we know that that's true. And so from there, from that point of honesty is where you can start to truly finding healing, you know? Yeah, that's so true. And yeah, I think a lot of people feel like they're somehow hurting their parents are not honoring them or you know, not loving them if they're honest about the ways in which they, you know, maybe decisions, they made one or both parents made affected them. And I, yeah, I definitely, we definitely push back against that saying that you could still love and honor your parents while at the same time being honest about the ways in which your family negatively affected you. And and the point by the way is not to just like stay there forever. We want to like move past it and heal those relationships and just like move on with our life. Like we're not supposed to be and I hope people don't get this wrong impression about restored. Like we want you guys to like move on, move past this stuff, not to perpetually be wrestling with, you know, these wounds and the struggles in your relationship with your parents. It is a process and that's something that happens overnight. But um, but that's the end the goal of all of this. So Amanda, I was curious, you know, once you kind of had that recognition, you were aware of, you know, your struggles and the root of them on a deeper level. What did you do with that knowledge? Like how did that understanding benefit you? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know with any problem, you really can't address it until you acknowledge that there is a problem. And so seeing that you know, I had some serious, you know, trust issues and just unhelpful mindsets when it came to relationships and things like that, it allowed me to then address them and I think especially you know with the help of the counselor, it was extremely fruitful to break down what I was dealing with why I was dealing with it and from there be able to find healing. So I think the process of understanding, you know, how my past had affected me and then addressing each symptom in turn, you know, allowed for healing to happen. I really don't think that I would have been able to kind of develop better habits growing virtue nearly as much as I hadn't first kind of come to terms with the fact that my past had affected me and was still affecting me even at that point in time, years after the divorce. So I think it was absolutely a very fruitful process even though like you said, it is a little, you know, it can be a little painful. It's a lot of work, but I think it's absolutely necessary if we want to have healthy relationships and a big part of our mission here restored is to undo the cycle of divorce. And I think we all want that for our culture, but we also want that individually. Like we don't want to repeat our parents mistakes. And so I think it was absolutely essential for me to work on those issues so that I could undo the cycle of divorce in my own life. Okay, that makes so much sense. Now before we move on, I'm just curious if you're open to sharing, were there any like more specific examples of like, this was a problem? I know you mentioned anger and some other, you know, struggles in your dating relationship. So I'm curious if there was anything in particular that was like, okay, this is a struggle. I didn't see I was connected to the breakdown of my family. Then I realized it was and I did this about it and I was able to get this outcome. Just curious just so we can kind of tie that together for everyone listening. Yeah, I think one of the most kind of helpful parts of, you know, especially cognitive behavioral therapy is you kind of change, you know, the goal is to kind of change your thought processes and so for me, the way my therapist described it and I hope I can make this analogy make sense, but it was kind of like being in a building and all your all your fire alarms, you know, are going off and so you're like, wow, like something's really wrong, like I need to get out of here, I need to get out of here, I need to get out of here and everyone outside the building is like saying no you're fine, you're good, everything's fine. Like what there's no problem here, but you're, you know, internally, like everything is is like a mess and you're like, I have to I have to escape and that's kind of how I felt with relationships was like they're constantly red flags going off in my head. There's a lot of anxiety of getting close to people and intimacy and all those things and I was constantly um riddled with these just intense, intense anxieties. And so those are like the fire alarms going off and so what therapy and coming to terms with with my past and things like that allowed me to do was to question those fire alarms. And so instead of running away or you know, avoiding the situation or you know, self sabotage, etcetera, it allowed me to like actually create space between the anxiety and my response. And then to intern question, you know, okay, is this where is this coming from? You know, why? Why? What are the reasons for it? Are the reasons valid? And then, like, you know, is this something I should talk to someone else about? Like, a peer mentor or or my therapist, or is this something I need to pray about first, It's just allowed me to kind of question those anxieties instead of just automatically assuming that it was true. And so um with that became a lot of courage to confront those fears and to work on relationships despite them, instead of kind of being their victim, if that makes sense? Yeah, because it can be easy to just go off the emotion and think like, well I feel super anxious about this relationship, you know, in your analogy of the building, I'm in this relationship, I'm in the building, I feel super anxious, it feels like all these fire alarms are going off, Everyone else says, it's like fun, but I feel like it's not. And so the temptation could be, like you said to just like maybe leave the relationship or to not resolve some conflict that came up and said you kind of were able to just avoid going down that path, which wouldn't have solved anything and instead kind of engaged, like the feelings that you're having and then, you know, deal with the conflict or instead of, you know, just listening to your anxiety, you're able to keep loving in the relationship and go beyond just the emotion portion. Is, is that right? I'm hearing, right? Exactly. So it was, it was really helpful for that. Exactly what you're saying, awesome. Yeah, so on my end, just to share a little bit, I was aware from a young age how my parents separation and later divorce had affected me, but obviously wasn't aware to the full extent. I always knew that man, like, that was a big deal was really painful and, you know, it still affects me to stay, but I slowly realized that the root of so many of my struggles over time, you know, into high school into college because just for everyone's sake, I was 11 years old and my parents separated, they later got divorced and so in the years that followed that there's just a lot of pain and a lot of problems that came along with that, and so did some things that really helped got new friends got into my faith, those things were really good, but I still felt broken. And so I realized over time that man, so much of this Brokenness, whether it was loneliness, anxiety, depression, you know, being some symptoms, a lot of anger for me, you know, as a young person struggles in my relationships, like all those things kind of started bubbling to the surface and I was able to tie it back, at least on a basic level, like, okay, this has something to do with my family, but it really didn't hit me until even after college when I was on a flight from philadelphia to Chicago. I was just visiting my now wife when we were dating, now I visit her and her family and I was heading back and I don't even know what happened that weekend when I was visiting her or you know, why I had this thought, but something happened in the relationship, There was some struggle there, whether it was like me struggling to be vulnerable and open up or some trust issue, I'm not quite sure what it was, but I remember sitting on the plane, I was in like a window seat. I'm looking out the window into the night sky and I was just thinking like, why in the world do I struggle so much in relationships? Like why do relationships feel so much harder for me than, you know, for my friends or other people that I've met. And then as I was reflecting on it more, it just hit me that man, like I, this was never really taught, you know, I didn't see a great example of what a healthy relationship looked like in my family and more than anyone else. And as you and I know that's like our school, that's our school of Law, that's how we learned how to love and build relationships within our families. And so it just started to click for me. Like it made so much sense that I didn't know how to do this thing that I was never taught to do. And so I just saw the need to like learn that and at a deeper level to to heal a lot of the wounds that I was dealing with. And so that kind of set me on a path personally to like seek out the healing which I began years prior. Didn't just start at that point, but it really kind of hit me in the face then. And that was actually the impetus for resort. I I just had to realize man, like I cannot be alone in this. In fact, I knew a lot of other people who are struggling with similar things. And so eventually led to creating restored building this podcast and the other resources that we've developed. So, you know, I can relate to what you're saying Miranda and uh we're certainly you and I are certainly not alone. Isn't that right? And uh, and we've heard a lot of, you know, stories of people who've, you know, dealt with similar things. Um, did you wanna talk about that? Yeah. So, you know, we've kind of looked at a lot of the research that talks about how, you know, Children of divorce are affected and also Layla Miller came out with a great book called Primal Loss and we've talked about that on the show. I know several times and it covers the stories of a lot of Children divorce as adults and how they came to the realization that their parents divorce affected them. And I think they, the the hard part is for them to realize looking back why they struggled so much and they see it especially in their relationships and marriages and sometimes failed marriages and for them to realize and to make that connection is so powerful. But also I think there's kind of a especially with people who are, you know, maybe older, there's almost like this regret of like man, I wish I had known earlier and made the connection earlier and worked on this sooner and so of course, you know, it's never too late and that's like the great news, but I think it's also very helpful, you know, for them to put their experience into words and you know, we have on our blog, the story section where people can submit their stories and I think that that's really helpful because it's very cathartic for us to just kind of talk about our experiences in that way because a lot of times there's really never an invitation for us to do. So, you know, it's kind of one of those things that we carry around um sometimes, you know, unaware, but even when there's a level of awareness, we have very little opportunity to talk about it because we don't want to hurt, you know, our family, we don't want to shock our friends or um you know, be vulnerable in that way and um it's just not something that's kind of discussed a lot. I think divorce is kind of a taboo subject in a sense, like we don't want to feel like we're condemning anyone and so we really don't get the opportunity very often to discuss our experience. And I think for, you know, people who participated in books like Primal Loss or who submit their stories on our website or things like that, it's like very cathartic for them to to experience, to be able to put their experience into words. And I know that, You know, we did some research on the power of writing and how that can be so conducive to healing. And for me personally, I wrote a post called your divorce that helped me, you know, and we talked about that in an earlier podcast episode two, that helped me come to terms with how the divorce affected me, and it was just very, just helpful to put it into words and there's kind of a sense of closure with that. So, anyways, we we've done a lot, we've read a lot of the research and we've seen over and over again, people, you know, tell their stories and even as adults who, you know, maybe have been married for a long time, they notice that they are affected by the breakdown of their family and so there's kind of a a sense of camaraderie or there should be a sense of camaraderie because we are, there's a lot of us and we've all kind of been impacted by the breakdown of our family and um healing is possible, but I think it's important for us to know that we're not alone in the suffering and in the healing journey. I remember interviewing gen it was episode 11, the title of the episode was um I thought my parents divorce didn't affect me and it was a fascinating episode and she told me in the episode, if you guys want to go listen to it, you can that she honestly thought like, for years of her life, I forget exactly when her parents divorced, but it was like earlier on, and uh you know, then years later she honestly thought that just didn't affect her until she was like in her mid twenties and she had an emotional breakdown. She was on a mission trip actually in Central America, and she still actually didn't make the full connection then, but it was not long after that, because she just kind of woke up to this fact that like, man that, you know, the struggles I've had with my emotions, the loneliness that I've dealt with, like all these other issues and relationships, they had the root and the breakdown of her family and so there was this like, thawing out period or waking up people talk about different ways, you know, connecting the dots, putting the pieces together if you want to talk about it, where she realized like, oh, you know, my struggles aren't random, you know? And truly not everyone is affected the same. Like we wouldn't say that. Um there's just cases where it's like you're more likely to struggle in this way if you come from a broken family. But you know, we can say almost always from the research we've seen in the stories we've heard that going through your parents divorce coming from a family where there's a lot of extreme dysfunction that that's traumatic and it has very real effects and we don't always recognize those effects and if we do, we might not, you know, again trace them back to their route. But the good news is we have a tool to help you guys identify how you were affected so you can heal those wounds. But first man, I wanted to talk a little bit about, you know, why do you think it's such a challenge for us to recognize how we were affected by the breakdown of our families by our parents divorce because it seems like it shouldn't be that hard and some people listening maybe like this isn't that hard, but it truly is like we've heard that for this from a lot of people kind of like yeah, I don't think it was affected. I don't know how it was affected then you start digging into their life and you realize like actually there's all sorts of struggles that you're dealing with, you just didn't recognize that it came directly or indirectly from this trauma, from this experience that you had. So why do you think it's such a challenge to recognize that it's a good question? I think one of the answers to that is the cultural um dilemma we're facing, which is just a very, you know, large percentage of marriages do end in divorce. So it's extremely common. We see it all the time and it's portrayed, especially the media sometimes as either neutral or positive event. And so there's kind of this um subliminal subliminal lesson, we're taught that divorce is really, it's okay because of X, Y, Z, you know, different reasons, you know? And so we see it very frequently, we've kind of been taught, again not maybe not overtly, but at some level we're kind of communicated that it is acceptable that it is, you know, some a lot of times a very good thing. And so it kind of makes it difficult for us to um make that connection because we're in this mindset of, well, you know, divorce happens all the time, like how how can this be a traumatic event if it happens all the time. You know, how can this be a negative thing if people say that it's it's good and that it's healthy and etcetera, etcetera. So I think there's just a lot of challenges that comes with when you're kind of culture is telling you that this is okay, that it's normal, that, you know, in fact it might be even good. And so we're kind of facing that at odds with our own experience and at odds with the symptoms that it's almost like, I think we talked a lot about this how we can be gas lighted sometimes. So I think that's one of the main reasons that that it's so hard for us to recognize this as negative and that's something that has a severe impact on us. Yeah. And for anyone who isn't familiar with that term gaslighting, you might not just expanding what we mean by that. Yeah. So I believe it was like that had to do with actual lights where people, like people were like slowly dimming the lights and you know, someone's like, oh, the lights are different and they're like, no, no, they're not, they're fine. You know? And it was like, um, I think that's kind of the origin of the term gaslighting, but basically, you know, we use it as a, as a, as a word for making normalizing something or saying like there's no problem when there really is. And so it's, you know, it's essentially we're being lied to, but it's, it's very subtle. So it's hard to pick up on, it's hard to combat because of that, okay. No, that makes sense. So it's basically like a form of manipulation where someone is kind of saying like, you know, you're like, hey, you know, my foot hurts and you know, you might be like bleeding and someone's like, no, actually you're fine, everything's great. Maybe that's an extreme example, but it gets the point across. So that makes so much sense. I think another reason why it can be so hard to just like connect the dots between our struggles today and what we went through in our families is that often divorce itself is promoted as like this great thing. You know, there's this whole line, our culture that, you know, the if you're unhappy in your marriage, just get divorced and go seek, you know, happiness elsewhere. Like with another person for example. And so what can happen to us as the Children is that we, you know, since it's being promoted as it's a good thing and people might even say things like, well everyone's happier and that we feel like, well if everyone's happier, then I have no right to be damaged by this. I have no right to feel badly about it. Like do I not want my parents to be happy? Like it's such a tricky question to navigate when people, you know, throw that to you, like, don't don't you want your parents to be happy. It's like, yeah, I do, but not, you know, at any cost, we've used this analogy before, but it's like if if someone's happiness and found is found in doing something like super immoral or illegal, it's like, well, no, we're not going to promote that in a similar way. I'm not saying, you know, divorce is legal or anything like that, but in a similar way, if you know something that's truly bad for the Children is being promoted as this great thing, then we end up with this really difficult situation where the Children again think that, oh, gosh, I'm hurt by this is painful for me, I'm affected by it, but they're told that no, it's actually a great thing and it puts us in this spot where we just kind of like, don't do anything about it. We feel like we have no right to be damaged by it. What else would you add? Why? It's hard to recognize this? Well, at one point, I want to add about your what you said with our parents happiness, I think it is very difficult, you know, when people when that our parents happiness is kind of brought into the question because of course we love them and we want them to be happy. But I think what a lot of people don't know is that actually a lot of the research kind of shows that people after a divorce, there may be a temporary uptick in personal happiness, but a lot of, most of the time it goes back to where it was before or lower. So I think to that's also a lie that we've been told a lot is that like, oh, this is gonna make your parents happy and it's like, well maybe in some cases there is an overall increase in our parents happiness, but I think a lot of the times, it's actually very temporary fix and people go back to where they were before, but I think another issue is we get really comfortable in dealing with the symptoms, so it's in the sense that we're used to it and it's just our normal and it's just our, yeah, it's just, it's all we know and so I think it's hard for us to believe that there's a problem when we've gotten so good at coping with the problem and it's just for us it's it's normal. And so I think a big part of it is, especially for us who maybe experienced our our parents divorced at a younger age, you know, and we just grow up dealing with coping in the best way we know how, which unfortunately is a lot of times very unhealthy, but we grow up doing that, we can become really accustomed to it and so it becomes very difficult to see our coping mechanisms as what they are, which is coping mechanisms and a lot of times very unhealthy coping mechanisms. So I think time, you know, build those habits, which makes them hard to recognize as unhealthy or dysfunctional, Yeah, we just get comfortable, we're comfortable in our wounds, even if things are like, you know, really mess up. I'm trying to think of a good analogy, one might be like your room could be like a total mess and yet it seems normal because it's always been that way. Um and so to you, it's not messy, but if someone else were to come into your room and see like, oh your room is actually like a complete mess, there's clothes everywhere, you know, papers on the ground, like chairs flipped over, your bed's not made, like all that stuff. It's like, no, this is actually everything I knew, I never even knew, you can like organize the room then you wouldn't know what to compare it to, sort of thing. So I don't know if that's the best analogy, but I hope that makes sense. Everyone. 11 thing I wanted to add on this too, I saw a real on instagram the other day by Adam Young. If you guys aren't familiar with him, he hosts the podcast called the place we find ourselves great, great podcasts, we love it. He was sharing a story about how when he was in high school, he asked his dad, he had known a lot of friends of his that were getting, you know, their parents were getting divorced, they came from really broken families, maybe one of their siblings was like hooked on drugs or whatever, just really sad dysfunctional situations. And so Adam asked his dad, he's like dad, you know, why are all these families so messed up? Those were his words in our families, like so good and so healthy. And one of the points he made was that he up to that point. He had been physically abused by his dad, his dad like really terrorized him, he said and he actually was sexually abused by his mom and yet he just felt like their family was good and healthy when in reality it's like, no, no actually there's some like really unhealthy things going on but he didn't know any better. That was his normal that that was what he was used to. And so I think it's similar here like we can go through life dealing with you know, maybe intense anxiety, We can go through life dealing with depression, just kind of feeling lifeless all the time, struggling with some sort of injection, whether that's a substance like drugs or alcohol or maybe sex or porn and it's just kind of learn to live with it that we think its like not weird, it's it's normal for us, even even if it's not even if it's not healthy, it's not good. It's not what we're you know, made for, meant to be. So I thought that was like really eye opening. I think another reason too, you you already touched on this a little bit Miranda is that we we avoid exploring that the damage that was maybe caused by a broken family because we don't wanna hurt our parents, because if we, you know, go into that on a deep level, we might start feeling like some sort of anger or abandonment or even rejected by mom or dad, even if even if mom and dad didn't intend that in any way, which is often the case, they don't intend it, it's just what happens. Um, it might be really, really difficult to kind of bring up those feelings because we feel like if we, you know, go there, we're damaging our parents. So we did touch on this a little bit before, but I just wanted to bring light to it again, saying that this is, I think why it can be so challenging. It's almost like we kind of block out this connection again between our struggles today, these symptoms that we've experienced and the breakdown um, of our family, but anything to add to that and anything else that, I mean, I think we probably touched on this already, but I think just to emphasize that it is very painful to, to think and talk about it. And um, I think, you know, very strong instinct that we have as humans, is to avoid pain. And so it's like, why would I why would I try to, you know, feels like almost inflict pain on myself by revisiting these wounds and these painful experiences if I can just keep doing what I'm doing and not experience that pain, and so, um, it's a very, you know, kind of counterintuitive process, because, you know, we've kind of been trained to avoid pain at all costs, and so to confront these painful memories and events in our, in our past can feel redundant at best and very painful and, and, and, and difficult. So, I think it's just important to remember that, like, there is a type of pain that is fruitful in a way, which is a necessary part of healing, you know, but it but it is possible to work through it. Yeah, no, it's, I mean, there's so many analogies, like going to the dentist when your tooth is, like rotting, you know, getting a cavity filled or getting a surgery on your broken ankle, like, it's going to be painful to go through that healing, but in the end you're going to be better off. And I think that's what I would challenge people to do here, and I'm sorry if we're gonna beating a dead horse here guys, but we really want to make this point clear and just talk to this problem, because we've seen it so often, you know, if you think that you're getting by in life, if you you're comfortable where you at, where you're at, like, I get that, there's nothing wrong with that in particular, but if you want better, right, then, you know, digging into some of your past, digging into the symptoms that you're currently currently experiencing is necessary? And so if you want to become the best, you, if you want to thrive, if you want to find the love, the happiness, the freedom that you truly long for. If you look, you know, on a deep level inside yourself, if you want to avoid repeating, you know, your parents mistakes, if you want to avoid repeating the dysfunction, the divorce in your family is going to avoid hurting the people that you love the most that then you really have to heal, healing is not optional. It's required. And again, just like with physical wounds, healing is not possible until you first recognize and inspect and diagnose the woman, like a doctor cannot treat an illness that he first doesn't diagnose and understand. And therapist Adam Young, who I mentioned before, he said when it comes to experiencing healing, naming how you've been harmed is about 70% of the battle and that sounds super simplistic. It's like, okay, I can like put a name to what I've been through or the ways in which I was wounded, but it's so true. And another example of that is like if you've ever had some sort of um an illness that you couldn't diagnose or you maybe you've known someone who has like somewhat of a mystery illness, whether it's cancer or something else, it can be agonizing to be like why in the world do I feel this? Why? Why in the world am I struggling with this? And there's so much power in just knowing like, oh, this is the disease, this is the problem because once you've recognized and put a name on it and diagnosed it, then you can see, oh now I can seek out the tools, the treatment to overcome this, to heal this, to become healthy, whole to gain full function of whatever. Like you break your arm to get your arm healed so you can use it again um and just move on in life to not stay stuck and stay there. And so to, to help you guys do that to diagnose your wounds you can heal. We built a tool, an assessment and Miranda, would you tell us about it? Yeah. So we, you know, over the past, I don't know, a year or so we've been looking a lot very closely at the common struggles that Children of divorce face and we kind of came up with all these different categories, emotional problems, relationship problems, you know, spiritual kind of challenges. And we came up with an assessment, a survey to help us identify like those problem areas. And again, this is based on the research that we've seen based on the trends, you know, because of the hundreds of stories that we've heard about it. So we were able to come up with, I think what is a very comprehensive survey about the emotional problems, the struggles with coping the romantic relationship issues, the problems with the with your parents, um and the struggles in your relationships with God and then a few other areas and we just came up with questions about all those different issues for you to kind of evaluate where you are with those different areas and how you may still be affected in those areas. Um, and I think a lot of us we may feel like we may have some awareness of like, yeah, you know, my my parents divorced, I think it may have affected me in this way or I I do struggle with relationships, but we haven't maybe sat down to really consider it in in depth. And I think this survey will help you have so much, so much better understanding of how you're being affected and therefore, you know, open the door for healing in all of those areas. I just, I just think it'll give so much more self awareness to everyone who takes it and who maybe wants to grow, grow in virtue and have healthy relationships and undo the cycle of divorce and dysfunction in their families. So it is free. It is, you know, confidential, it doesn't take too long and that time is an excellent investment into you. Just growing as a person. It's not, you know, we're not psychologists, we're not, you know, medical professionals, but it will give you a good idea of how you were affected, how you're being affected. So you can actually take steps towards finding healing because I think without awareness of the problem areas, I just think it's very hard to work on those problem areas without first knowing what they are. And I think one of the benefits too is you kind of get it all in one place, you know, at the end of this assessment, you'll get a report of, you know what you answered basically and then you'll be able to go back and see like, oh you know, this is kind of like all of my struggles are all these different things that I've struggled with that are in one spot, one report. And so you can see, oh this is how I rated my anxiety, this is how I rated this aspect of the relationships I've been in my relationship with my parents, my relationship with God, like all these different things, you'll be able to see it in one spot because I think often um when we go through life and we recognize like an area that we struggle in um if we do tend to think about it, it's always in isolation, it's never like kind of this comprehensive, like okay these are the areas I'm strong in these areas on weekends, so it kind of gives you this sort of assessment of, okay, this is you know, in these areas that I haven't struggled in these areas that I have struggle and you kind of see it comprehensively altogether at once in that report. So there's a lot of benefits to it Miranda already mentioned. Some of them. Are there any other benefits that you would add to? You know, investing the time into taking this free assessment? I would say, even if you think you're fine and maybe you are, you know, maybe you are doing really well. I think there's always room for improvement. So I think as people who want to be the best versions of ourselves, I think this survey can help us do that. Even if maybe you feel like you weren't affected by your dysfunctional family or maybe you feel like your family wasn't, you know, broken in any way. I think there's always room for us to grow. And I think this tool will help you kind of combat complacency in your life, especially in your relationships and take it to the next level. So I think it's, you know, not necessarily just about fixing what's broken, but also improving what maybe is already good. Nice. No, I like that. And like you said, you know, it's a tool to help you diagnose your Brokenness. You can heal it. Um It also is just going to save you a lot of time from needing to research this yourself because you could, you could read a bunch of books, you can do the research that we've done. Um you know, the studies we've looked at, but it's gonna take you a long time. And so we're essentially saving you time saving you money by going through this assessment, then you needing to research all this yourself. And I've also, you know, we've seen this with the blog like you mentioned before where when people share their stories, there's this sense of just like not really feeling as alone, which which I think is powerful. So I think once you go through this and recognize like man all these questions that they're asking, I can relate to and if this is based on research and stories of a lot of other people, then they must struggle with this stuff too. Then I'm not as weird as I thought I was, I thought I was alone. I thought I was the only one who struggle with it. I'm not strange. I I, you know, I'm just like all these other people and so I think, I think that's really helpful. One thing I would add too is once you go through this, you can even bring the results, the report to your counselor or to your spiritual director and even a mentor and get their advice on, you know, how to heal and how to grow it again, it gives you kind of like Snapchat, an assessment of where you're at in life and the areas that maybe you need to work on. So I think there's a lot of good good there and kind of summarizing to one of the main things when it comes to any sort of healing and growth that we've learned from the 12 step programs like alcoholics anonymous. That helps men and women who are struggling with an alcohol addiction. The first thing in the 12 step program is really to admit the problem and our ability to admit the problem really rests on our ability to just recognize it to begin with and understand it. And so that's what we're helping you guys do in this assessment. So to close out if you want to take the assessment, it's really simple. Three steps, just go to my broken family dot com. My broken family dot com. You'll just answer the questions and the assessment. Again, you can be anonymous if you want to. It's a confidential thing. We're not going to like tell, you know, everyone in our audience that you in particular answer, you know, these questions, of course we can take that very, very seriously and we'll keep your particular individual answers private. And then you get to see your results. So you get to see the snapshot of of what you answered. Again, go to my broken family dot com or you can just click on the link in the show notes and again, you might be very surprised by your results. You might think that you're kind of in, in one place in life and then you realize, oh, I'm in a different place than I thought I was and that can be really empowering, really helpful to uh to grow. And so again, we've heard stories of people just kind of listening to our content or consuming some of our resources using them, who say, wow, I just, I never realized that, you know, people from broken families typically struggle with this or that, and I've heard people even who shared with me in their sixties and or fifties and sixties, let's say, who just never had the words to use to say, like, oh, I didn't realize this was like the way I could talk about this problem that I had, like, coming from a broken family and it's like extremely helpful for them, or, you know, again, like I said, I didn't realize that other people who came from broken families as well struggled in this way. So, again, go to my broken family dot com, my broken family dot com. And you can take that assessment if you know someone who comes from a divorce or a broken family who could benefit from this tool to go ahead and send them that link, or you could just send them the link to this podcast episode. So, in closing, thank you so much for listening Miranda. If you have any final thoughts, I love to hear them, thank you so much for coming on the show as well. Again, No, I, I'm excited for this tool. I think it's gonna be really helpful to a lot of people and I just encourage anyone who's listening to take advantage of it because I think it can actually be the catalyst for some really big and positive changes. So I just encourage people who might be considering to take it to go ahead and just make that investment um time wise and do it for yourself in your future relationships or current relationships. And I think you'll be really surprised at how how helpful it could be to just get started on your healing journey and to understand where you are and where you could be. I'd like to leave you with this to reflect on how were you affected by your parents force or your broken family and most importantly, how are you still affected today answering that question? Might honestly be the key to begin healing and building the life and relationships that you want to help answer that question. You could take our new assessment by just going to my broken family dot com or just click on the link in the show notes again, It will help you diagnose and name your Brokenness so you can heal it. Thank you so much for listening. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them and always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life