#065: A Tool to Heal Your Brokenness and Your Relationship with God | Bob Siemens

If you’re from a broken family, you’ve likely experienced extra barriers in your relationship with God. In fact, you might not even believe in God because of what happened in your family. Wherever you’re at, we’re glad you’re here.

In this episode, you’ll hear how spiritual direction is a tool you can use to overcome those barriers, heal from the trauma you’ve endured, and become spiritually strong. We also discuss:

• Feeling guilty for wanting your parents to get divorced

• Specific challenges when relating to God, such as rejecting God as a way to protect yourself and the question “God, is this how you really treat people who love you?

• Temptation to suicide

• Personal fears, such as “Am I going to be like my abusive dad? Will my marriage end up like my parents’ marriage?

• How deepening your relationship with God helps you heal and feel whole again

If you’ve struggled in your relationship with God and felt far from him, this conversation is for you. 

Join the coaching waitlist for a counselor or spiritual director

Check out Franciscan University’s School of Spiritual Direction

Links & Resources

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• Bob Siemens

  • Email: rsiemens@franciscan.edu

  • Phone Number: (740)-283-6277

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you come from a broken family, meaning your parents are separated or divorced, or maybe they have a really dysfunctional marriage. You've likely experienced extra barriers in your relationship with God. In fact, you might not even believe in God. As one young person told me he doesn't even believe in God because of everything that's happened in his family and wherever you're at.

We're glad you're here with us. And in this episode, my guest teaches us about a tool called spiritual direction that you can use to overcome those barriers heal from the trauma you've endured on a deeper level and becomes spiritually strong. My guest also shares how he struggled with the questions. Am I going to be just like my dad will my marriage end up like my parents' marriage.

He also opens up about how he felt guilty for wanting his parents to get divorced because things at home are so bad. He gets real about his own struggles and his relationship with God, such as how he rejected. God. As a way to protect himself and how he really wrestled with the question, God, is this really how you treat people who love you?

And most importantly, he tells us what he's done to heal his relationship with God. He also talks about his temptation to suicide as a young person. And he explains what spiritual direction is and how it helps you heal and grow. Now, if you're someone who has struggled in your relationship with God and you feel far from him, especially because of what's happened in your family.

You're really gonna appreciate this conversation. This is gonna be so helpful for you. So keep listening,

welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce. Separat. Our broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Elli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 65. Now, before diving into the episode, I want to give you guys a sneak peek to something we've been working on at restored.

We've built a brand new workshop. The workshop has titled how to heal from the trauma of your broken family tools and tactics to feel whole again, and thrive. And this is a six hour workshop with short. Practical talks and exercises that make healing simple, and we've put together a fantastic team to deliver these workshops.

And we're thrilled to share this with you guys to help you, or maybe the people that you love or lead to heal and grow. And we'll be telling you more about it in the future. Our first one is coming up shortly here. And if you wanna know more about this workshop that we'll be offering and even discuss, perhaps booking an event at your school or church, feel free to contact us at events at resort.

ministry.com again, that's events@restoredministry.com. I'd love to speak with you about it. All right. I'm really excited for this episode because I get to introduce you to my spiritual director, who has played a huge role in my own healing and my own growth. And I'm also excited because one of our goals at ReSTOR is to make healing simple, to make healing simple.

So often healing is made more complicated than it really needs to be. And so we wanna change that. And as I mentioned, one simple tool that you can use to heal. Is spiritual direction, which you'll hear all about in this episode. But first my guest today is Bob Siemens. Bob is the founder and director of Franciscan university's school of spiritual direction.

He was trained in spiritual direction at the Len Terry center for Ignatian spirituality in Denver, Colorado. The program is run by a religious order called the Oblates of the Virgin merit. You may have. Father, Timothy Gallagher. He's his most well known speaker, author and trainer. And Bob graduated from FCAN university with a degree in theology.

Bob's also held various ministry roles, including the director of evangelization at FCAN university. And he is also spoken across the country. Bob is husband de Shannon and the father of their five. Kids. He loves working out gardening, scuba diving, craft beer, and messing with his kids on a personal note Bob's example in the life that he's led have really been inspiring to me.

He's worked so hard to reverse the cycle, especially as a dad. And he's an amazing father. And what, what I've learned from him really is that I can reverse the cycle two in my own life. And that's absolutely true for. As well. So I'm so excited for you to listen to this conversation and to learn from Bob.

So let's dive in

Bob. Welcome to the show. It's so good to have you. Thank you, Joey. It's good to be here. I've wanted to do this for a long time. Uh, and I wanna get into spiritual direction talking about that, how it's helped you, how it's helped me. But before we get to that, I wanna start with your story. So like, so many people listening, you, you come from a broken family.

And so I'm curious, how old were you when your parents separated in divorce? Yeah, well, um, growing up, my parents separated several times, so that question is kind of a little nebulous. Um, Yeah. From the time I, some of my earliest memories was my dad being kicked out of the house, um, because of having affairs being gone for weeks on end.

Um, so. I would have to say probably the first time my dad and mom separated was when I was probably about four, five years old. And then, uh, it just kind of continued on and then, uh, they separated. When I was about 18 and my dad moved to another state with my brother and my mom stayed in the state that I grew up in, and then they got back together and then they were having affairs.

And basically make a long story short. Um, they separated, which ended up ultimately leading into to their divorce. And, um, I was right around the age of 25 when that happened. Okay. So wow. Very drawn out. I mean, for. Basically 20 years of your life, this kind of back and forth, and then finally getting to that stage of the divorce.

And then of course that brings a whole host of issues. You mentioned a little bit of what happened, uh, as much as you're comfortable sharing, uh, yeah. What, any details that you would add to what you've already said? Um, yeah, details. Hmm. I guess. For myself, um, from the very, very, very young age, I had this conflicting feeling inside of me because, um, I, I was religious, um, in particular because of, of my grandmother.

And, uh, she lived a block away. I would spend majority of my weekends, uh, growing up, uh, Friday, Saturday. With my grandparents and, and, and my grandma in particular, uh, was the one who would take me to church and, and whatnot. But I remember from the youngest age thinking, oh God, like, I don't wanna live like this.

And having guilty feelings of, I wish they would divorce. I, I wish I wish they were divorced. This is even, you know, so at the youngest age, I just knew something wasn't working out and it always left a haunting, uh, feeling inside of me too. Like, am I gonna turn out? Like my dad, uh, is my marriage gonna turn out?

Like my parents' marriage? Um, am I destined to have affairs? Yeah. So. It just brought up, uh, a lot of really conflicting feelings inside of me. Um, and, and again, one in particular was like, how can I be religious? How can I be, uh, good virtuous if I actually want my parents to get a divorce? How, uh, how sick is that?

And then I, I, I kept that to myself too. Uh, kind of like a, a buried, uh, something deep and buried. That I never felt really comfortable sharing with either that I, I actually wanted my parents to get divorce. Yeah. And that's actually not uncommon from everything that I've learned. I know when things at home are so tumultuous, so many of us, we just want it to end and.

Especially because the popularity of divorce in our culture, it seems like a solution to a really messy, bad situation. And I think most of us when we reflect kind of back on it, especially as we get older, we kind of realize like, well, the ideal would've been for, you know, my parents or parents to. Heal their marriage and to bring stability into the home.

Um, now, you know, sometimes that's not possible, but that's what I wish every couple would strive for. So, no, I, I, I think it makes sense like that you feel guilty to that you wanted all that to end and before seem like the, the way to do that. Um, we, we, we hear that often. Yeah, you bring up something interesting there too, about just like, you know, what good person doesn't want, you know, their, their, their family to be restored and to be healed, uh, right outta high school.

Well, maybe let me just back up a moment. BA basically my mindset growing up was like, I want to be everything. That's the opposite of my parents. Um, in particular, my dad. So I strove for that. Didn't drink. Didn't do drugs, didn't have sex, all those good kind of things thinking, oh, I've. Got my stuff together, uh, right outta high school.

I, I did a year of ministry and, um, was very involved, uh, with that found a lot of purpose and a lot of meaning, although, uh, I would definitely say I was doing it to, to be loved. It wasn't, uh, a total pure motive. I was thinking, well, I will prove myself to God. I will prove myself to others that I am a, a good human being.

And so I joined this ministry and, um, one of the, kind of the mantras you would say, maybe of the ministry was like, Hey, the more you share, the more God's gonna work in your life. So for the first time in my life, I had these brothers and sisters around me, uh, who were encouraging me to share my life and.

It, it proved to be too much for them. My dad was physically abusive, so I shared that, um, I shared the affairs, um, et cetera, et cetera. And at the end of the day, um, because these were all fairly young people, uh, no therapists in the crowd there, uh, good hearted people, but it was ill advised for me to just share.

Um, so openly, so vulnerably. Without them having kind of any expertise of what to do with all that sharing. Um, I was signed up to go on a, a second year of this, this mission. And, um, at the end of the year banquet, one of the administrators pulled me aside and said, Hey. You can't go on a second year. You have to go back home and, um, get family counseling, get family counseling, which is something you just brought up, you know, who wouldn't want that, who wouldn't want to see their family succeed.

Um, but the funny thing was here, here. I was a, at that point in time, a 19 year old, uh, kid, um, still trying to make his way in the world. This guy had no clue. Um, I looked at him and, uh, you know, bold his bros. I was like, Do you really think that if I couldn't have gotten my family to therapy before now, I, I wouldn't have, it was just ludicrous.

He, he basically, they basically just didn't know what to do with my baggage. And so they thought, well, you know, a nice approach would be for me to go home and tell my mom and dad, they needed to get therapy. And we'd. Go together to therapy as a family, I ended up telling the guy to F off to be really honest with you.

um, it was a pretty bold move on my part. Uh, obviously I didn't do the ministry ever again, after that, you know, again, there was that sense of guilt too. Here was here was the ministry. I equated with God with doing the right thing and he's telling me to do something that will. I can't do mm-hmm I can't get my mom and dad to therapy.

And that led to, uh, to a lot of confusion too. Like, who do I share this with? Who can hold the tension of my life and what I've been through? Uh, who, yeah. Who can hold the tension of, of who I am and want to be and have been through. And that was a very confusing time. Yeah. Very confusing time. No, absolutely.

I would have felt the, the same way and. There's a few things there that you said that I just wanted to touch on. Um, one is just the idea that maybe it was your job to fix your family. Like that's such a harmful idea. And of course, I'm not saying that we, as people come from broken families, we have no hand in helping our family.

It's not true, but we're certainly not responsible for fixing our parents' marriage. Like that's their job. Sure we can influence them maybe in little ways, but it is much less to do with us than I think, uh, as said is talked about. And somehow for one reason or another, we feel so responsible for maybe helping them in fixing their marriage.

But that, that's just a really harmful idea. So even the fact that someone else was telling you, like, Hey, go fix your family and then come back. It's like, well, uh, that might not happen. And nor. My role. So I think it is wise of you to kind of shoot that down. The, the second point I just wanted to make was you were just so alone.

And so you were left on your own to deal with life and left on your own to, and we've talked about this before, but it's just so often people like us just feel like, okay, it's me against the world. Nobody's got my back. Uh, I have to figure this out myself. And so I bet that situation where those people who you're confiding.

They didn't know how to handle what you were saying. I bet that made you feel even more alone. Yeah. Yeah. It was a strange feeling of, uh, actually Hm. I felt very empowered in that moment, because like I told you, I told the guy to F off. And I think that was the first time in my life. I actually stood up for myself and was like, you know, this guy was older than I was, but I could see how ludicrous it was that he would tell me to go and get them help when at the end of the day, I mean, my goodness, the only person we can actually help in, in, in this, I I've come to believe in this world as our.

Period. Uh, we can do little things for other people, but the only person we can really help is ourselves. And we typically do a pretty crummy job of that anyway. So why should we not saying that we shouldn't be there for other people? That's not what I'm saying, but it was an empowering moment for me, but the loneliness came afterwards.

Uh, the loneliness came when I went back home and, uh, was with my mom. My dad had been, was gone by that point in time. And I just remember feeling. So incredibly alone, uh, to the point actually, where I, I became extremely suicidal. Um, it was the first time I actually got therapy myself was because I was driving.

I had contemplated, uh, committing suicide, uh, while at work. and I was driving home, um, after work and, and thought something's gotta change. And if it wasn't for, uh, this little counseling place that had this Jesus fish on their, their little advertisement board outside the place, uh, I probably. Well, I may have committed suicide.

I, I don't know, but I pulled in there unannounced and said, I need to talk to somebody. And that was my first time with a therapist was a, a, a gentleman, um, who was very kind and very loving and very supportive and began to help me make sense out of myself. Um, with all that I had been through. He began to give me words to things that I had never had words to before and to, uh, really help me, um, to understand that the way I was feeling was not the feelings of a crazy person, but my feelings were normal for what I had been through.

And that was. Very refreshing the first time I began to not feel so alone in my mind, if that makes sense. Yeah. No, a hundred percent. And it, I think often that is overlooked. Like just hearing that you're not crazy, like yeah. Actually given what you've been through, this is an appropriate response. It's so freeing.

It's extremely faint. And I know I felt the same way. I know we hear that feedback a lot. When people listen to this podcast or work with our ministry in any capacity, it's like, wow, that's no one, no one said that to me before. And so it's amazing that you, you know, at least had that at that point in your life.

I mean, I bet you wish you would've had it earlier, but. I thank God that it came at that 0.1 tool. Obviously you said that you used to heal and to deal with all this pain and all these problems in your life was counseling. But another tool eventually I became a spiritual direction, both on the receiving and the giving end.

I, I suppose, on. Your healing story was on the receiving end, obviously, but eventually you became a spiritual director. So I'd like to kind of shift gears and talk about that. I'd love to just go and share a story for the next hour, but, um, but I really wanna focus on spiritual direction. So yeah, let's talk about how that in particular helped you to heal and to grow.

Yeah, that's, uh, that's a great, great segue there for me. Um, spiritual direction. Was the ability to have, um, somebody walk alongside of me, not just in a therapeutic role, but, or I'm sorry, the spiritual direction was not therapy at all. This was began to help me make sense out of God, because for the longest time for me, although I had a great love and, and, and respect for God.

I didn't understand him and truth be told, I still wrestle with this. Um, I still wrestle with a thought of how could a good kind loving God really put me in the family that he did. But again, I didn't have the freedom to talk about that. I was scared to talk about that because that's not what a good holy person talks about.

Right. They don't talk about, um, this thought that that God could have screwed. That's that's what I felt. And so I shoved that for the longest time. Um, for me, I mean, even my, my first introduction to, to pornography Joey was from my father. I was 7, 8, 9 years old, and he was pissed at my mom. He threw a Playboy magazine at me, um, said, okay, Hey, it's time for you to grow up and become a man.

I just to piss my mom off, you know? And, um, that, that, that just, just started me on a journey of, of, uh, confusion of, of lost, trying to fill those wounds. And so even in that place there, I was like, God, really? Like, what the hell? Um, is this how you really treat those who love you? So there were all these things.

And I just couldn't make sense out of them. And, you know, in therapy, typically you're dealing with your own thoughts, your own emotions and stuff like that. But in spiritual direction, there, there began to be a, a, a dealing, not only with my, my thoughts and my feelings and my emotions, but also with the concept of, of who God is of who a good loving God is.

Or could be. And I noticed for the first time in my life, a real shift, a shift from saying why God, why God to, where were you? Where were you when I was, uh, You know, four or five and, and, and, and, and, and my mom told me my dad was having an affair and kicked him outta the house. You know, where, where were you?

Uh, when I'd wake up at night and my parents were throwing dishes at one another and screaming, and then it would be two weeks of complete silence, um, in the house because they weren't talking to one another. Where were you? When my dad threw that Playboy magazine at me? And it was for the first time in spiritual direction that I began to, to, to, to hear him clearly say I was, I was right there in the midst of it all.

Um, I wasn't void. I wasn't just sitting back. I didn't just wind you up to let all these things happen to you. And it was the first time in my life. I actually. It felt like the Lord was crying over me as that little boy who was exposed to all these things. God spoke to me. I never meant that to happen to you.

And that was really freeing. And I don't think that that would've happened on my own. If it wasn't. Through spiritual direction. If it wasn't having somebody sit besides me and, and, and, and companion me there, just walk with me, hang with me and the tension of my life and gave me, um, the freedom to, to let God, um, speak to me clear some of the clutter.

Um, that I had in my life, through my wounds, my brokenness, and through my own free will to be able to hear the voice of God, just a tad bit differently. And I think that's really the gift of spiritual direction, uh, is to be able to weed out. What I would say are three voices that are always worrying for our hearts, ours.

Satans and gods and for whatever reason, cuz I, I can't explain it. Gods always seems to be the, the small quiet voice. And so a lot of times we, we tend to not listen to that voice or listen to that voice last, um, spiritual direction has helped me to listen more, uh, attentively to the small, quiet voice that actually speaks truth, um, compared to the other voices.

Wow, thank you for sharing. So vulnerably, and I'm glad you're bringing this topic up because I think so many people listening right now can relate to, to you. And one of the things that bugs me, and I know it bugs you too, is when, um, you know, religious people kind of skip over this. It's the same, like, well, God knows best, God knows best.

It's like, well, this is a deep question that deserves an answer that deserves wrestling with. And there is an answer I'm convinced of that, but. It's not something you should just skip over. And if you know someone listening right now, if you've totally rejected, God, uh, this is something you need to wrestle with.

Like you owe it to yourself to at least give this some thought and just to talk to God, even if you're angry, like let him have your anger. He knows what you're feeling. Anyway. Give it to him, show him. And for those of you, who've maybe. Lived very pious devout lives. Uh, maybe you've never gone here and it might seem kind of scary to you and I get that, but in, in really in order to heal and grow and have a, a better relationship with God, you need to dig into this.

And that's where obviously having the help of a spiritual doctor is so helpful, which we're gonna get into a little bit more. Yeah, I think it is important to say that, like, we need to go to these dark places. We can't just kind of put on this mask, put on this facade and be like, God knows best we're good.

And you know, all that dark stuff that you, you had been through, which is just so, uh, traumatic that needs to be talked about. Yeah, absolutely. I, I, yeah, I really like what you said there about, God's not afraid of our darkness, you know, we are, and, uh, I think that's beautiful. And even just your comment there about maybe, you know, listeners who have rejected God, Hey, Bravo to you that might even sound scandalous, but man, does it ever make sense?

Like it makes sense why people would reject God when they've gone through some of the things that they have gone through. And I think. To me, the rejection of God in that aspect is, is, is actually just a protection. I don't want one more person in my life. Who's actually gonna let me down. So I will reject this individual.

I will reject this person that could indicate. Life, but is really confusing. And again, I think that's another beautiful thing in spiritual direction is, is, um, because you even addressed the real pious listeners who I, I think in some ways have really rejected God or, uh, yeah, rejected God in some ways too, because we cover up actually relationship with God with, with pie.

So there's a certain rejection of, of God in, in, in saying you're actually really not the God that I thought you were gonna be. Um, but I'm not gonna say that I'm gonna ignore that because the Pius, the good thing to do. And I would say that that was me for the longest time, uh, was to ignore all that, because this, this, this doesn't reconcile with a good kind loving God.

But we have to wrestle with it. It's like Jacob wrestling with the angel. We have to wrestle cuz if not, the only thing that's really left is our, is our own just self perseverance. And that, that can again be extremely lonely, always having to take care of ourselves, thinking nobody has got our back.

Nobody really wants our good, um, we're the only ones that can do that and facilitate that and be. So I think you bring up some really good things there. Joey. Really good. Yeah. Likewise. And I'm glad we're kind of diving into this. And one of the things I think's true for everyone is that we have this distorted image of God.

We don't really know often what, who God truly is. And we kind of project our image of him, especially because of what we experienced with our parents. And I know you and I have talked about this in the past, but. I think for those of us who come from broken families, it's like extra true. It's even more distorted.

And so one of the benefits of spiritual direction for me working with you in particular and spiritual duction or spiritual directors I had before you was, UNDSS sorting that image of gotten, trying to see him for who he truly is. And it's still something I'm working on. I've made a lot of ground. Yeah, I, I think that's one of the huge benefits, but I also wanna go back to something you said before that sometimes, you know, it seems like the only way that God communicates is in just a small, gentle, quiet voice, which is kind of frustrating.

it'll be nice if it was more obvious. And, uh, and it reminds me of what CS Lewis said, you correct me if I get this quote wrong, but he said something along on the lines of, in me, Christianity, he said that, you know, God, what is it? He whispers us in our joys. He speaks to us in our conscience and he screams at us in our pain.

Yeah. And I think he says like pain is God's megaphone to Browe a sleeping world, something like that. And, uh, and I, I think man, that, that's such a difficult conversation though, cuz so often we want God to be one way and he's just not. And uh, and that could lead to a lot of frustration, but I do, like you said, have a lot of respect for people who aren't on the fence.

Like they're running in one of the directions. They're either totally rejecting God, which I know a son's kind of scandalous or they're, you know, running after 'em and like trying to wrestle with these things, but the people in the middle. You know, it just kind of, it seems like they get stuck there. And so, um, so I think there is something to be said for people who, you know, are digging into this, either projecting him or, or going after.

Yeah. You know, you bring up something really beautiful about CS Lewis too. And it's so touching to me, if, if for the listeners who, who maybe don't know his life story, he said those beautiful little platitudes about God and about God's voice and. Before he actually, uh, entered into a relationship with his wife joy and, um, again for listeners who maybe don't know it was Joy's, um, dying that caused him to actually have a crisis in faith himself.

And, and, and to really say, Am I actually going to believe these words that I said that, that, that pain really does awaken us, um, to God or, or was it just a nice platitude? I was saying to help, you know, help people just make sense out of their pain, but yet. I haven't lived through it myself. And, um, it's just a really beautiful moment for me too, in, in just realizing that, you know, again, I think you touch upon something else.

How often do we just try to prove to God that we're worthy of love? We, and, and I think through our woundedness, our brokenness, our, our, our, our, yes, through all that we've lived through, um, especially with, uh, divorced, uh, parents and, and, and traumatic experiences and whatnot, that, that, uh, in some ways deep inside of us were constantly saying, I have to prove to God that I'm worth his love because obviously somewhere failed.

And he can't just love me because if he did, he, he wanted to put me in a family like this. And one of the truths that I've, that I am coming to, I shouldn't say that I've come to, but that I'm coming to slowly is that God loves without a, because he doesn't love me because I had good parents or bad parents, or because I was physically abused as a child.

Or not, God loves me, period, but that's something that is super hard. Um, especially through people for people who come through so much adversity, who've experienced so much pain that there's this almost this reward system that we want to set up. to where I I'll earn. God's love. I'll show him that I'm good.

I'll show him or those around me. Maybe your spouse, that I'm not like my mother or I'm not like my father, but in the end it just continues to leave us wanting. But to just sit in that place that God loves me without Acus, he just loves me period. There's something very freeing about that. And that's another one of those places where I think spiritual direction just helps so much to help us understand our image of, of self and our, our image of God.

Uh, the good, the bad, and the ugly of all of it. Um, to come to a place of just understanding who God is. Who I am for God. Mm-hmm, ultimately for me as a spiritual director, that's the first place I go when somebody first comes and sits down with me, tell me, you know, if I was interviewing Jesus Christ on my couch right now.

And I said, you know, Jesus, tell me about who is Joey to you? Joey, what would you say if I were to say, Joey, who is God to you and or Jesus Christ. And he's sitting right here in this room now, what would you say. I always think that's such a beautiful moment of, of, uh, true understanding and clearing away the clutter of who we make God out to be or who we make ourselves out to be.

And then there's this certain place where all the facades just begin to fall between God and us. We are who we are, or as God says, I am who I. wow. A lot to think about a lot to chew on, uh, just in that little bit there. And, you know, we we've mentioned a few benefits of spiritual direction. Is there anything that you would add to kinda what we've already said?

Like something might be thinking like why, why would I go to spiritual direction? But what are those benefits? Yeah. Yeah. You know, I would say the first, um, he's just the, the accompaniment, um, to have somebody walking, uh, with you in the messiness of life. I know that it's just been, uh, something just very, very beautiful for me to have somebody know me and be able to walk with me and the tension of, uh, my, you know, becoming better.

Uh, and, and, and understanding God better to just sit with a trusted individual. Somebody who holds things confidentially, who is non-judgmental. Who can be, um, maybe a spiritual or a spiritual father or a spiritual mother, and I'm not saying replace or make up for, for what our parents have lacked. But that they can just show us, they can just show us love.

Um, sometimes I know when spiritual direct my spiritual direction session is over with my spiritual direction director. All I wanna do is just sit there. I wanna stay there. Um, I kind of feel like the, the, the woman, uh, washing the Lord's feet or, or, uh, you know, Just that sense of like, I just wanna stay at your feet.

I, I can resonate with, uh, Peter, John and James, when they're on the mountain in the transfiguration. And they say, Hey, I let's build some tents and stay here. And I, I, I think that I get that feeling with my spiritual director that I'm held in such high esteem. Um, that I'm, that I'm loved for, for who I am, that I don't have to prove anything.

And there's such freedom there. Um, there's freedom just to be me. Um, there's freedom that God can just be who he is. And, uh, I love that freedom. I love that freedom. One of the biggest benefits for me, um, again, working with you in other spiritual directors I've had, but especially with you, is that just the loving, the affirmation that you receive?

And like you said, so often in our lives, we're deprived of that. And so it's just so freeing to. You know, in a way receive, God's love through your spiritual director, through someone who's there to, to guide you in your spiritual life. And I know in some situations even can become more of like a just life mentorship, which I think is, is so useful as well.

Uh, as we're talking, I'm realizing that it'd probably be helpful for everyone, uh, to kind of define spiritual direction because you know, maybe this is the first time they're hearing it. Uh, so yeah. What would you say to someone who maybe has never really heard of this term spiritual direction? Uh, what exactly.

That's a really good question. What I would like to say, uh, about spiritual direction is that it's, it's a heart encountering a heart. And if you have a really good spiritual director, it's not the directee encountering the director's heart. It's the directee encountering the heart of God. And for me, that would sum it up.

That even though I wanna spend time with my director, I want to like, okay, you know, maybe stay at his feet because I feel loved and affirmed. It's not actually his love or affirmation. I mean, he's a conduit of God's love and affirmation. Yes. I feel it through him. So I have deep respect and love and admiration for him.

But for me, the director is the one who just opens up a door and maybe, maybe it's. Pushing it open just a little bit at first or helping the director. You do that. And sometimes maybe it's just kicking it down. to allow the Direct's heart to finally speak to God again for me, you know, I'll go back to that example of, for so many years of my life, I wrestled with this deep dark, in my opinion, dirty secret of saying God, why.

why, why this, why that? And I was so afraid to be honest with anybody about that, because I had so much anger towards God mm-hmm and it was there finally, where my director was like, Hey, let's kick that door down together. You don't need to worry about saying why. And then he offered me the opportunity, this perspective of maybe changing that.

Why word to, to where. And that was like, that was a floodgate for me. That was healing for me. That was me encountering the heart of God in all of its purity that I longed for all of my life. But I don't think I would've been able to do without a spiritual director. So spiritual direction for me is actually the director getting out of the way of God.

But being a conduit for God being, and having and helping a direct D open a door for God to come in for a heart to speak to a heart. Um, for me, the imagery in scripture is the prodigal son. The father is waiting there for him. The father is seeking him out. The prodigal son comes home. The father doesn't even hesitate.

He embraces him. He doesn't say, Hey, let's first clear the air, nothing. He simply embraces and allow, allows the sun to come back period. And there's something beautiful about that. So that's a, that's just a really beautiful imagery there. One way I've heard you talk about spiritual direction too, is the spiritual lecture is somewhat of an interpreter.

They help you kind of discern God's plan for your life, kind of what God's communicating to you. Uh, but also kind of like you said, poking at those maybe sensitive parts of, of your soul to encourage you to kind of dive into that, to dive in. And it's almost in a way. It's like a doctor for they're like a doctor for the soul.

It's like, okay, you, you know, have some issue here. Let's, let's work on it. Let's heal that. Let's bring that to God. Um, who's the ultimate physician. So I, I know I've found that particularly helpful because so often we're not equipped or maybe not. Brave enough, if that's the right way of saying it to go there on our own, we really need someone to walk with us, especially someone who's trained.

And so I wanna, I wanted to get into kind of training and talk about that for a second. But on the practical side of spiritual reduction, I wanted to mention a few things and of course, love to hear a, you would add anything to it, but typically spiritual reduction looks like, you know, an hour long meeting.

Um, what typically once a month, With your spiritual director and, uh, you know, it can begin with the time of prayer. It can end with the time of prayer and that's just a conversation and, you know, questions are asked and, uh, things are discussed and so on. Um, is there anything you would add on like the practical side of someone who's like, I don't know how this works.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very, very much. So, first off, just one point of clarification that I just wanna say there, you, you kind of talked about that doctor, doctor, physician kind of thing with spiritual direction. One thing I do want to caution people about though, because. A lot of times we can, we can project this onto a spiritual director is that they're gonna diagnose us.

They're gonna look at us and oh, yep. Here's this issue that you need to work on in prayer with God, here's this issue? Here's this a spiritual director should never diagnose you. Because at the end of the day, there, there is, there is no, uh, there's no set plan because each person that, that, that comes to spiritual direction is, is unique and, and, and beautiful.

It's just a journey or in many ways, I like to call it a dance. Um, that might be a little too intimate for people and that's understandable, but I, I find it this beautiful dance where a director is dancing with their directee. Um, but the directee is always the one who is leading because. That leading just points and goes, goes back to God.

I, so I think that's very, very important to, to make sure that your director is never diagnosing you and then saying, you need to do this that's therapy, or that is like a physician who says you have this health problem and you need to take this medication again. The director. Um, approaches to open up a door, uh, to help that individual listen to the voice of God, to ignore shut down, close off Satan's voice that wants to tell us that we're no good, uh, that, that, that, uh, that we deserve these things, et cetera.

And probably the majority of the time to close down our own voices too. Cuz we can tend to be our own worst enemies too. So, so that's one thing there. Um, I would also just say with the practicals, you know, uh, although there's, there's a se there's kind of a, um, with the word spiritual director, it makes, it sounds like the director is going to direct you and tell you this and tell you that the approach of, of, of.

Uh, spiritual director direction that I espouses is, is one of a called a contemplative evocative. So I to ask extremely open ended questions that that gets the individual to do some real soul searching. Um, and why. So that there's a greater self-awareness, but not just for self-awareness, because self-awareness for self-awareness sake, doesn't really lead us a whole, a long ways.

It's always so that it leads to a greater understanding. And then from that, Self-awareness and that understanding to a greater action that we can actually have action in our, in our spiritual lives. Um, you know, and I'm sure this resonates with many of your listeners right there who have gone through even kind of therapeutic healing.

Uh, nothing is worse than going to a, uh, a therapist and, and all it is is, is talk therapy. With, with no real, uh, maybe, shall we say some understanding now, sometimes there's things that happen to us that are completely and totally out of our understanding, you know, tragedies in our lives. There's really no understanding.

That's that point that I was saying earlier about why God, why, but instead of saying where, and then that leads us to that place of action. When we can finally start to be empowered. To, uh, to take control of the things in our lives that we want to take control of, uh, to realize, um, there are certain things that are just out of our control.

And I think a spiritual director does that in the spiritual life as well, creates a place of self-awareness that leads to a greater understanding that helps individual take steps, uh, in action to become, shall we say the best version of themselves or the holiest person that they can. I'm glad you clarified that maybe the doctor analogy isn't quite appropriate for spiritual reduction.

And, uh, that makes sense what you said that one of the ways that I say it is the spiritual director is not a spiritual commander. They're not there to tell you kind of what to do or what God's telling you to do. And so, uh, thanks for clarifying that, uh, one thing that is so important when you're looking for a spiritual director, Is to find someone who's trained in spiritual direction.

You don't just want anyone directing you. So a few questions for you, one, uh, who trained you and, uh, why, why is that important to find someone who's trained in spiritual direction? Yeah, that's a great question. So first off, um, I was trained by the Oates of the version, Mary in Denver, Colorado at the land Terry center.

Great, great place. Um, and they trained me in this method called the contemplative evocative method. Uh, which really changed my life. The reason why it's so important to have somebody who's trained is because we would never want to actually go to a therapist unless they were trained. Why would we entrust somebody with our spiritual lives unless they knew what they were doing?

Uh, we can have all kinds of good intentions, but at the end of the day, uh, especially a spiritual director is entrusted with a. And the intricacies of that soul and the wrestling of that soul with themselves as well as with God. And that has to be treated with as sacred ground. Um, in many ways, you know, I just think of those, you know, would take off their shoes before they entered into the temple.

And, you know, what would our churches look like? Actually, if we did that kind of thing nowadays with, with taking off our feet, as we entered into holy ground, because we knew it was holy ground. In, in many ways, I envision that when I enter into spiritual direction with an individual that I need to take off my shoes, not them, but me because I am entering into holy ground, which is them and their relationship with Jesus Christ.

And you know, when somebody comes to that vulnerably, we, we need to have people who are trained to handle that kind of vulnerability and not exploit it. Now. So many of your listeners have already been through. Why would we want to put them through anything more by not going to somebody who's trained, who just kind of says, you know, Hey, you know, suck it up, buttercup.

Um, get over your, your, your P PTSD, your whatever it may be, because they just don't know. So I would say having somebody who can really practice that evocative method, who can be non-judgemental and this is what good spiritual direction training programs do. They equip a director to handle the intricacies of the human heart.

To companion them to let them know that they're not alone, but that they are, uh, an individual who is always pointing to God. And that sometimes that directee might want to look at the director more because of that again, that love and that affirmation we were talking about before. But a trained director will always point them back to God because they know in the end, it's never about them.

They're on the exact same journey as their directee they're they're alongside of them. They're not in front. They're not behind they're right alongside just trying to get to heaven. And again, I think that's why it's so important to have a training director who has that humility, who has that training, who has that understanding, uh, who can walk with an individual in that way?

That's helpful. And I know we have some people listening who especially wanna help the people that we're trying to help at restored people who come from broken families and becoming a spiritual director is one way you can do that. And thankfully you have a program at FCAN and university that you, uh, where you train spiritual director.

So tell us a little bit about that. If someone were to, uh, go through. What, what does that look like? What's good to know about your program. Yeah. Um, thank you for asking about that. For many of the listeners may know who Rick Warren is. He was, uh, was, or maybe still is a pastor at Saddleback mountain church in, in the orange county, LA area.

Uh, he has this beautiful quote. He says, you know, you know, um, people are gonna. Um, find some of their greatest healing, uh, through your root brokenness and woundedness. And, um, I would have to honestly say that the spiritual direction program here at Franciscan started from that from my brokenness and my woundedness and, and God pointing that out through me, going through, uh, spiritual direction training and being, uh, being directed and.

My director basically handling the wounds of my heart and saying, Hey. Go and help other people heal now through your wounds. And, um, the program here, uh, was founded about four years ago to train people in a three year process, uh, to actually in many ways, use their own brokenness and woundedness to go out and heal the world to bring people closer to Christ.

So, um, our program. Uh, we have two different options. Uh, the most popular is, is a two week intensive for three summers. Um, so we have our first one coming up or, uh, a new one coming up May 22nd to June 4th. And that'll commence, uh, right around that same time for the next three years. And at the end of it, um, an individual could expect to be trained.

One is a spiritual director and two to lead somebody through the exercises of S Ignatius of loyal. Uh, but in particular, what they could expect by going through our program is that they would be trained to be, uh, a director who could lead somebody in the contemplative evocative method, uh, which is basically.

Opening up space for God to get into an individual's life. We've had two graduating classes. It's been very successful. We'll have a third graduating class coming up, uh, this summer. And I really feel like it's the Lord raising up an army of people to just go walk in and with individuals to, to someday, uh, get to heaven.

God. so good. Uh, I'm glad that you're doing this. There's such a need and I applaud the work that you guys are doing there at Franciscan university. If someone wants to sign up or connect with you, how do they do that? Yeah. Great. Um, so one they can, uh, email me, uh, directly, uh, R Siemens, franciscan.edu. It's R S I E M E N s@franciscan.edu.

Uh, you can call me seven four zero two eight three. 6, 2 77. I sound like an infomercial now. or you can just, uh, Google, uh, Franciscan university school of spiritual direction. And there's a lot more information on there as well. Um, with the application general info, any, anything from there, uh, would love to talk to anybody who's interested in, in becoming a spiritual.

Thank you so much, Bob. And, uh, one thing I, I wanted to go back to for a second here is TIUs we hardly talked about him, but so much of this work and Spiritus reduction in general is based on this Spanish Saint. Yeah. Well maybe another time we can dive into that a little bit more, but, um, yeah, for any of you wondering it's it has a rich history and tradition and it's, uh, very, very beautiful.

And the, uh, what Bob was saying for the spiritual exercises, it's, uh, what a month long or so retreat that you would walk through and. It's very beautiful and very, um, it's such an opportunity to grow and to heal too. And so a lot of good stuff there. We don't have time to get into that as much, but Bob, I just wanted to.

Yeah. Thank you again for coming on the show for sharing what you're doing and sharing your story too. Thank you for. Being so vulnerable. I know I learned a lot as I always do from you. And I know the people listening are better for it as well. In closing out, I wanna just give you the final word. What would you say to, you know, a person listening right now who feels very broken?

Uh, especially because of their parents' broken marriage, their family falling apart, kind of going through all that trauma. What encouragement, what advice would you give to, to someone like that? Who just feel stuck and broken? Yeah, you're not alone. You're not alone. And your brokenness. Is not, uh, you're not so broken that you have no help.

Um, that was a lie that I, I believe for so long was that I was so broken. I was so dysfunctional. Um, I was so wounded that I could never truly be loved for exactly who I am, which is a lie. Um, and I think you, Joey and, and, and the ministry restored is doing so much to help people, uh, come to that. To know that they're not alone, their story is their story, but it can be shared with others finally, and that they can find peace.

They can find healing. Joy and hope and make sense in some ways out of their, their sufferings, their deep, deep sufferings. So my encouragement is to hang in there. Uh, you're not alone. Find somebody clinging to somebody, uh, in, in, in some of this trusted individuals, cuz they can help.

I wanna leave you guys with a question and that. What's one thing that's holding you back from a relationship with God. What's one thing that's holding you back from a relationship with God. And what can you do to find answers to that obstacle? That's my challenge for you. Give that some thought, chew on that a little bit, and then come up with an answer, try to find an answer.

And then most importantly, take action. If you're looking for a counselor or a spiritual director, uh, we wanna help you. We're building a network of spiritual directors and counselors that we trust and we recommend. And so you can tap into that network. And some of the benefits of tapping into the network that we're building is it's gonna save you lots of time and effort in searching for a counselor or for.

A spiritual director. We'll also connect you with a trained professional who can give you the help and tools you need to heal. So you can feel hold again. And then again, like I mentioned, these are people that we vetted that we trust that we recommend. So if you wanna join the wait list for counselor or spiritual director, just go to restored ministry.com/coaching.

Again, ReSTOR ministry ministry is singular. Dot com slash coaching. Just fill out the form of that page and then we'll connect you with a counselor and, or a spiritual director, whatever you request again, that's restored ministry.com/coaching. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 65.

Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful for you. Feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who really is struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you are born to be.

#064: Your Broken Family and Mistakes Don’t Need to Dictate Your Future | Maggie Kim

One night, Maggie’s mother left her family without any explanation. Naturally, Maggie felt extremely abandoned. Following that night and her parents’ divorce, she hated her mom. All the pain led her to cope by using drugs, drinking, and sex.

Thankfully, her story transformed. In this episode, you’ll hear:

• How all that trauma led her to attempt killing herself

• How she opened up to her mom and dad about the way their broken marriage and divorce affected her

• Why she feared marriage, but after overcoming that fear, she now has a beautiful marriage and four awesome kids

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When Maggie was only in middle school, her parents separated and divorced and she didn't know how bad things were in her parents' marriage until they started sleeping in separate rooms. Eventually she learned that the relationship had turned abusive, but before she really knew what was going on, her mom left one night without any explanation, which obviously made Maggie feel super abandoned that led her to hitting her mom to struggling more in her relationship with her dad.

And so many other struggles. Now, thankfully her story doesn't end there in this episode, you'll hear how at such a young age, she had to choose between living with her mom or her dad. She opens up about what she did to cope with her pain and unhealthy ways like drinking drugs, acting out sexually and stealing.

She even shares how all that trauma led her to such a low point where she attempt. To kill herself. You'll hear what happened in the episode, she talks about the conversation she had about everything that had happened with the divorce with her mom and her dad separately. Some really good lessons in this episode and how to talk to your parents about your broken family and how it's affected you.

And finally, she touches on how she really didn't wanna get married. She was afraid of it because of what she experienced in her family. But now she has a really beautiful marriage and four awesome kids. Complete 180. I have so much respect and admiration for Maggie. She's been through so much, really an amazing sword filled with dark times, but also so much hope.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 64. If you're someone who recognizes the pain and problems face by teens and young adults who come from broken families and you wanna help them.

We wanna team up with you. One of the ways that we help those young people from broken families is by offering speaking engagements at your school, church or conference. At this point, we offer three talks. The first one is what I wish someone told me when my parents divorce, how to cope, heal. And build a divorce proof marriage or help someone else.

And this talk is primarily for students, teenagers and young adults who come for broken families, but anyone who loves or leads them will also learn a lot. And in this particular talk, we cover stories and studies on how our broken families and especially our parents' divorce affects people like us. We teach the young people, coping tactics to help them deal with their pain in healthy ways.

Instead of unhealthy ways, we give them evidence based healing, tips, and resources to help them feel whole again. And then we offer practical strategies to build healthy relationships and even a great future marriage. That's the first talk. What I wish someone told me when my parents divorce, the second talk is seven tips to build a thriving and divorce proof marriage, actionable advice from research to the church and time tested couples.

This talk is also for students, teenagers young. It also come from broken families and in it, we cover seven really practical tips on how to build a beautiful marriage. It's not just for people who are married or even close to getting married, but really anyone who wants to get married one day, who, who might want to get married one day, all the content is based on psychological research lessons from beautiful couples and the Catholic church is teaching on marriage.

And we can also offer a secular version as well, or even an evangelical version. If you're. Not Catholic one young woman who is actually on newly wed. She heard this particular talk and she actually listened to it three times in a very short period of time because she found it so helpful. Again, this talk is seven tips to build a thriving and divorce proof marriage.

And the final talk is 10 tips to help someone whose parents are separated or divorced practical tactics for anyone who loves or leads teens and young adults from broken families. And this suck is for anyone who loves or leads young people from broken families, whether you're a teacher school administration, pastor youth minister, a family friend, significant other.

In this talk, we offer insights into how a broken family and especially divorce affects that person that you love or lead. We offer some practical things that you can do to help them cope, heal, and grow into the person they were meant to be. And then we also give resources, you can offer them so they feel less alone and ultimately can heal and grow.

And we'll be offering more talks in the future as well. Some of our clients so far have been Franciscan university of Steubenville, Avi, Maria university focused the fellowship of Catholic university students. We've spoken for the archdiocese of Denver, the archdiocese of San Francisco and the diocese of San Diego.

Now, as you can tell so far, speaking engagements have been for Catholic audiences, but we don't just serve Catholics. We serve anyone who wants us. And so if you're interested in scheduling a live or virtual talk, we'd love to hear from you how just go to ReSTOR. Dot com slash speaking again, restored ministry.com/speaking.

You can view our talks on that page and then you can request pricing, or if you're ready, you can book an event by the way, our pricing is a fraction of the cost of what most speakers charge. And so we love to work with you. You will not be disappointed again. Go to ReSTOR ministry.com/speaking, to learn more and book a talk today.

My guest today is Maggie. Kim. Maggie is a wife and mother to four kiddos. She became a Catholic convert in 2013 after discovering her love for the Eucharist sacred tradition and the powerful intercessory prayers of the saints as a registered nurse, she has a passion for fertility awareness. The pro-life movement and anything else related to mothers and babies in her free time, she likes to read thriller novels, eat desserts and watch movies with a strong cup of coffee.

Her husband, Paul is a Catholic speaker, so she understands the ups and downs of ministry life, but loves being able to serve in this God-given mission alongside her family. Again, great conversation and amazing story with Maggie Kim,

Maggie, thank you so much for being here. It's great to have you. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here before recording. We were kind of talking about how yeah. We just kind of go deep quickly. So if it's okay with you, uh, we'll we'll follow that script. I'd like to know how old were you when your parents separated and divorced?

I. Around. I was in middle school, so I was around 13, I wanna say, uh, when they separated and then they got divorced about a year later when I was 14, 15. Okay. So very formative years, uh, definitely a difficult time. And what, what happened that led up to all that and then of course, through the separation divorce itself?

Yeah, sure. Um, well I think my parents had a very difficult marriage from the very beginning, even before my sister and I were born. They had issues all throughout their marriage. Um, my dad, you know, he was verbally and emotionally abusive. We didn't really see that very often. We would kind of get glimpses of it here and there as kids.

But, um, it was way worse with my mom, you know, they would fight, but it was usually behind like closed doors and we weren't really aware of what was going on. I didn't even really understand or. Realized that they had serious issues in their marriage until my mom started sleeping in a separate room. So we had a guest room in the house and she would sleep there.

And, you know, we were kind of just like, that's strange, but, um, right. They never were open about their issues and never really. Like had serious arguments in front of us. And so very suddenly one night my mom is I, I find her packing up her bags, um, she's planning to leave and it was, you know, it was a very traumatic night.

My sister and I, we were, I just remember crying and begging her not to go. Um, and she, like, she couldn't even look at us. She could barely, you know, she couldn't say anything. She just like had a mission to leave . Yeah. And she was, I just remember watching her, like packing up all these suitcases and, you know, my dad was telling my sister and me, like, don't let your mom leave.

Hmm. Like you gotta say anything to keep her here. And, um, so, you know, we're just like begging her not to go. And, you know, eventually she, she packed up her stuff and she left and that was like, so. Jarring for us. Yeah. Um, we were just like, what is going on? Yeah, it was, it was a very difficult night. Like something that I'll never forget.

And then a couple weeks later she came back and then my parents sat us down and we kind of had that discussion, you know, uh, where we have to, like, you know, they're telling us we're, we're getting a divorce. And, um, at that point they wanted us to decide like who we were gonna live with. Um, so at the time we, yeah, at the time, uh, we were living in orange county in, in Southern California.

And my mom had moved to Los Angeles, which was about like a 45 minute or an hour drive away. Mm-hmm . And so, you know, they're like, so are you gonna live with mom or dad? Like you gotta decide. And. At that point or so. So in those two weeks in between my mom leaving and having that family discussion, my dad, like he was really good at manipulating the situation and telling my sister and, and myself that like, mom doesn't care about you.

She, um, she just wants to go and live her life, like, and just kind of filling up, you know, filling our head heads with like all these lies so that we would choose him. And that's exactly what happened. So it was the fact that my mom had left without any explanation. Um, and also the fact that, you know, we were liking, we didn't wanna have to leave our school and our home and all this stuff.

So we decided we were gonna, uh, stay with dad. So that's yeah, that's when things got real for me. yeah. And, you know, we would do, we did the whole thing, like where we would go stay with my mom over the weekend and blah, blah, blah, blah, which I hated, I, I absolutely hated going, you know, like I would go and see her new apartment and she'd have like all this new furniture and all this stuff, and I'm just like, in the corner, like stewing, like you left us and you're living this new life.

And like, you get all these nice new things. And I just, I hated going. I hated her. I remember like one time just straight up saying to her face, like I hate you and I don't ever wanna see you. And at that point, like we had, like, after that, we hadn't spoken for, you know, a really long time. So yeah. Anyways, um, that, that happened.

I, I live with my dad, um, and he got married shortly after, so. Um, I found this out much later on like, as an adult, but, um, my dad had multiple fairs and then, you know, when they were married and he ended up marrying remarrying, the woman that he cheated with. And so he remarried like very quickly after like the divorce was finalized and yeah, at that point, like I just felt so abandoned.

Um, my mom had left, my dad had gotten remarried and was like off living his life with his new wife. And my sister had gone off to college at that point too. So like she, she had just left. So it's like, I just felt like all this abandonment from like all sides, you know? So yeah. I was very, uh, bitter. I was very depressed.

Um, I, I was, I started to rebel like crazy. Like I. I don't know, I was just like anything that I could do to get into trouble I probably did. Or tried at some point, I, it was like, I was constantly like pushing the, the boundary and, and seeing like what I could do, how far I could go before getting caught.

Cause I, I think, you know, in a way, like I was, I was telling myself, like, I'm not gonna get caught because dad doesn't care. Like he, I was living with him and he was doing, you know, he was providing for, for me and everything, doing what he could, but he was so like checked out. He was so like, I don't know, he was just wasn't emotionally.

For me. And so I, I just figured, like he doesn't care if, if I do all these things, um, I started drinking and doing drugs when I was 15, I was stealing, I was, I was addicted to pornography. I was very like sexually promiscuous. Like all these things to see how far I could go before my dad would actually pay attention.

And so I guess in a way, like, I almost wanted to get caught because then that would mean that he was paying enough attention to me to discipline me or, or whatever it is, you know? Um, and so it was, it was just years of that. And at one point I just, I, yeah, I, I, I guess I, I didn't realize how depressed I was until I tried to take my own life or I, I tried to overdose on, on pain medications.

And, um, it was at that point when I was like, I realized I really needed help. . Yeah. So that's the gist of what went down, I guess. Wow. Thank you so much for yeah. Being so vulnerable. I know everyone listening really appreciates it. It's, I'm learning so much, you know, just listening to you and there's so much to say, but wow.

What, what a pass? Like what, what a heavy thing for, uh, you know, young woman, a girl to go through mm-hmm , especially during those years that are just so formative. I was 11 when my parents separated and it's a lot of similarities to, to your story. And pornography was kind of my drug of choice and it makes sense to me that you rebel so much, it just makes sense.

And, you know, you alluded to just kind of all that being a cry for. And absolutely I could totally see that, you know, kind of wanting the love and attention, wanting the opposite of the abandonment that you experienced and, you know, really not getting that until you got to the point of trying to kill yourself.

Yeah. And it, it totally, totally makes sense to me. I think so often in our world, we see these individual struggles that kids have, like, you know, drugs, sex, you know, alcohol, all this stuff, like suicide attempts, everything that you said mm-hmm and we treat them kind of symptomatically individually. It's like, we treat the symptom, but we don't get to the root of it.

Yeah. And, and I think it's such a disservice because yeah. Maybe you could treat the symptom and it be okay for a little while, but if you never get to the root of it, it's very likely that it's gonna come up again. You're gonna fall into some unhealthy way of coping, which is just so common as you know, for people like us.

Right. So. It just makes so much sense to me. And I've found that suffering to, to hear people say like, okay, you weren't weird for kind of doing what you did. Like yeah. We're not saying that it was good behavior. That sin is a good thing. Of course not, but it just makes so much sense. Absolutely. And it's, I think like, as a child, when you are traumatized, because like your whole world shatters, like everything that you thought was secure and stable and love, it's the whole, like the meanings of all that, like it shatters.

And so as a child or as like, even like a young adult, like, you don't know how to deal with that. If nobody is teaching you in a healthy way, like how to cope and, and it's. Especially if, if feelings of abandonment are there, which most likely they are, it's like, you you're crying out for attention, even if it's gonna be negative attention.

And as a mom now, like, it totally makes sense to me because even for my kids who are toddlers, like they're throwing tantrums and I'm like, well, why are they making such a big deal out of this thing? And that's wrong with you? and I mean, like, that's essentially what we're doing. Like, as you know, as like teenagers or young adults, it's like, you're crying out for attention, even if it's negative attention, even though, even if it's gonna get you into trouble.

Yeah. So it's like, you're doing anything you can to know that. You're like someone is paying attention to you and someone loves you enough to say something. Yeah. Uh, psychia or psychiatrist, or I think he was a psychologist, uh, Conrad bars. He said that he believed that most people, uh, weren't suffering from suppressed emotion, which is what Freud basically said.

He said most psychological problems. Ford said most psychological problems came about because people were repressing emotion and common BARR. Um, he was a Catholic psychologist. He said that he doesn't believe that to be the case. That certainly can be true in some cases. But he said, in most cases, people are suffering when he coined as emotional deprivation, meaning we basically have this hole in us.

That's just longing for love, for affirmation, for, to be wanted. And it just doesn't get filled. And so, because that isn't filled in a healthy way, we look to anything that might somewhat satisfied in an unhealthy way. Yeah. And. That I, I think describes so much of our culture, even people who aren't from broken families, but especially those of us who come from broken families.

Cause like you said, it's so foundational and we tend to think when our families fall apart, we go through life with this expectation of everything falling apart. Like what won't fall apart. What can I hold onto? Which I know we're gonna get into marriage, um, in this conversation, which I'm really excited about because, uh, that just rocks a marriage to think that, oh, this probably is gonna fail one day.

And what I've realized in my own marriage, my wife and I have been to counseling. We talk pretty openly about this, but there's always that kind of fear, even if it's a small voice in the back of your head that, well, this isn't gonna last, my spouse is probably gonna leave me or cheat on me or something mm-hmm and that expectation kind of that impacts the way that we act, which.

Aid and bringing about that reality that we fear right. So it's like this I know, right? Yeah. Go for it. It's so ironic. it is. Yeah. Yeah. So you're exactly right. I mean, like in all the relationships that I had following my parents' divorce, it's, it's exactly what happened. It's like, I would, first of all, like I would do anything to cling onto that person.

It's like, It's like, whoever I was with at the time was like my savior, because they were helping me to like, forget all the pain and like, I could finally like get a chance to feel happy. And so I would do anything to keep that person in my life and, and stay in that relationship. But then in moments where it got, got tough.

It's inevitable in any relationship, you're gonna have moments of conflict and, and hardship. And it's like, I, I just, I knew they were gonna leave me. And so like, a lot of it was either like me just being desperate to do whatever it, it, um, takes to keep them in my life or I would suddenly just shut them out because, um, I'm like, well, if you're gonna leave me, I'm gonna beat you to the punch and I'm gonna leave you first, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. And so it was just like all these defense mechanisms that I just learned to adopt, because that was how I, like, I guess in a way, like I was learning to survive because I, yeah, like you said, it's like deep down, you think everybody's gonna leave you. And so you do what it takes like you do what, what, what it takes to keep that relationship alive, or you do what it takes to protect yourself.

And in a way, like if you shut that person out or if you leave first, it's like, you, you get you protecting. Yourself. Um, so yeah, that, that was really, um, it led to a lot of like toxic, unhealthy relationships, as you can imagine, um, like the codependency and all this stuff. And it was, um, right around when I met my husband, I, you know, like, I think after so many years of like trying to like drink and like do drugs and forget all my issues and numb all the pain, like I knew that wasn't gonna be sustainable.

Like I knew at some point I was gonna like crash and, and in a lot of ways, I, I, I did have moments of like reaching my lowest points and I just, I was so tired of it. Like it was so unfulfilling and so empty and I, I knew I needed something more. And so like, I, right around the time I met my husband, I also started going to therapy.

And man that like, it, it changed my life. I, it was like the first time I could actually acknowledge what had happened and, and like acknowledge the gravity of it. Like, I remember my one, I think maybe it was like my first or second therapy session with the, with like the very first therapist I've ever talked to.

And she was like, let's talk about your childhood, your parents and blah, blah, blah. And I started talking about the, the night that my mom left, you know, just like I did a few minutes ago and I started laughing. It was like the strangest thing, like I was sharing about the night and I started laughing and.

The therapist looks at me. She's like, you know, that's a really interesting reaction to the story you're telling, because you're the story you're telling is very sad and very traumatic. And, um, I just, I find it interesting that you're laughing and I was like, what is wrong with me? Like, I must be going crazy.

um, but it, you know, it's like, again, it's like those defense mechanisms or those coping mechanisms where you're trying to you're so like, You can't like face the, the trauma. And so you, you make light of the situation by laughing about it, right? Like a lot. That's why a lot of like comedians, I, I feel like that they learn how to be funny because they have issues or they have trauma in their life and they learn to like, make light of the situation.

Right. But yeah, so in a way, like that's what I was doing. And, and it was like the first time I like looked at how serious it was and how traumatic it was and how that affected me. So going to therapy was so eyeopening. And then finally, like, I, you know, I met my husband and he was the first man in my life, you know, like in a, in a close relationship where, like I knew he was a good man.

Like, I, I didn't have very good, like positive male figures in my life. At least like, not like close enough to really have like a deep relationship. And so there was just like, I just knew in my heart, when I met my husband, that he was a good man. Um, and that was very healing for me because for a long time, I didn't think that was possible.

Like, I didn't think that men were capable of, you know, being trustworthy or being like loving or, you know what I mean? Like it's just a hundred percent. Yeah. It, it was, um, I was like, wow, like good men are out there. . Yeah, yeah. And no, it, it makes sense. Given what you had been through that you would kind of expect every man to, yeah.

Maybe on the surface they would look good or fine, but behind closed doors, as you learned. They wouldn't be good men. So no, that probably was pretty earth shattering for you, which is beautiful and amazing. And mm-hmm yeah. I want to kind of dive deeper into that. I do wanna kind of close the loop on your relationship with your parents as much as you're comfortable sharing.

Cuz I don't wanna leave people hanging on that. They probably yeah. Right. What happened? So yeah. I'm just curious kind of how has that evolved over the years? And then yeah, I, I have another question, but let me let you answer that first. Okay. Yeah. It took a lot of time to heal a lot of work for sure. And a lot of like self-awareness I think in processing, like what had happened and how it had affected me and then finding the courage to talk to my parents about it.

I think that. Changed our relationship for better or for worse, like with my Mo. So I guess I'll kind of like talk about my mom first. So like I said before, sh you know, we had, I, like, I had so much hate in my heart for her, for leaving us. And, oh, at one point I, I went to go live with her because things at home with my dad were just really difficult.

And so I didn't know where else to go. I just, I seriously like called her up. I was, I think I was like halfway through my senior year in, in high school. And, um, I called her up and I was like, I just, I packed a bag and I have nowhere to go, like, can I come stay with you? And I, I hadn't talked to her in a really long time up until that phone call.

And she was like, of course, like, come over right now. Like, you don't need to explain anything, just come. And so then I started living with her and it was awkward at first because I, you know, we still like hadn't resolved anything, but fi like slowly, little by little, like that door opened up. And as I started going to therapy and kind of processing what had happened, I.

I remember sitting down with her one day and just sharing everything, like everything. I felt everything that she did that hurt me, um, like asking her what happened, like what was going on with you and dad, like what happened in the marriage? And we just had this amazing conversation where she was so open and honest and vulnerable and, you know, like we just had like an opportunity to share and to apologize and forgive each other.

And in that conversation she had even like said, you know, I made mistakes. Like she owned up to her own mistakes too. Wow. And she was aware of how much it hurt me. She was even. Aware of how she had hurt my dad in the marriage. And she expressed that she regretted it and, and I think that conversation was so healing for me and it allowed me to move forward and move forward to forgiveness.

And then, and now we have an amazing relationship. Like she, I, I can't imagine life without her. Like right now we live in two different states and I'm like, and she's planning to move over here. And I'm just so excited to, um, you know, be like 20 minutes away from her now. And so yeah, we have a great relationship and.

What also helped a lot with that was when I became Catholic. I, I converted and became Catholic when I was 23. And, um, I started learning about our blessed mother, mother, Mary, and I, I know not everybody who's listening to. This is Catholic, but I just started learning about her and like growing up, I, I didn't know much about her.

I grew up Protestant and any, like any mention of her was very like negative. And so I was finally starting to like, learn about who. The mother of Jesus was, and kind of like starting to have a relationship with her as well. And I think that really helped a lot of, kind of like those mother wounds that had been left in my heart.

And I mean, that's like a whole nother story, but yeah. So I, I think that allowed me to just find a lot of healing when it comes to my dad. Um, it's kind of a little bit of a different story, you know, like I kind of had that same opportunity to share with my dad, like, just like I did with my mom. I, you know, told him everything that I had experienced and how I had been hurtful and all this stuff.

And it was, there was a very different reaction and I went into it knowing like, not expecting. Him to react in any sort of way. I was just kind of open to like whatever he was gonna say. Um, but he's very good at like, he's very good at blaming other people for, for his mistakes and just kind of, he, I, I think he, he was just very caught off guard by that conversation and he was, he wasn't very willing to kind of own up to it.

And, um, yeah, I don't know. It was just not a great reaction, like, and I was fine with that. Like, I, I just, I went into it knowing like, you know, if he doesn't react the way that I'm hoping to, like, that's okay. It doesn't mean that I have to like hate him, but it certainly affected our relationship. Like it, I'm definitely not as close with him as I would like to be.

I, I mean, he's changed so much, like he's. I know he's a good man and he's, he's changed in so many ways for the better, but, um, I still kind of keep my heart guarded when it comes to him. Um, I don't really, um, we, we, you know, interact maybe like a few times a year we'll call or do like text, um check-ins but, um, nowhere near like the kind of relationship I had with my mom and, and that's okay.

Like, I, I, I think like, as I get older, like I, I'm learning to be more okay with that. So anyways, that that's kind of like, I, I guess that's just kind of how ive ended up. Yeah, no, I mean, that's so beautiful with your mom that you were able to find that resolution and build a beautiful relationship. Yeah.

Like you have right now. And what a man, what a road you've been on and I can relate so much with. Dad, your, your relationship with your dad. It's very similar in my case. And one of the struggles there is exactly what you said, you nailed it. Like he has a really difficult time taking ownership. Yeah. And I love my dad, you know, just like you said, you love both your parents and you know, you don't hate them.

I don't hate my dad. But if I'm honest, that unwillingness to take ownership for the problems that he caused has damaged severely. Oh yeah. His relationship with me and all of my siblings. Yeah. Like I, I could go into that for an hour. It's it's so sad. And so any parents listening? Mm-hmm I know we have parents listening, cuz I know you wanna, you love your kids.

You wanna help your kids. You wanna figure out how to help them through this really difficult time that you're going through. You've been through and you know, just like we just learned from Maggie a second ago, take ownership. take ownership. And I think a lot of people who refuse to take ownership maybe are afraid of.

Turning people off or getting disowned in a way. But I, I honestly think Maggie, like the opposite happens when people take ownership. It's like in my life, when people have taken ownership for the bad things, they've done the way they've hurt me, I just have more respect for them. And it tends to heal the relationship, kinda like you said, with your mom.

And so you can always make excuses parents, but I, I think that it takes a lot of courage to just own up to your portion of what happened. And it doesn't mean you have to say that what the other person did was okay or acceptable. That's, that's not the case, but just take, take ownership of what you contributed to it.

And I don't mean to single out my dad, uh, my mom, you know, in similar ways has had a hard time taking ownership. And so mm-hmm, , it's, um, it's certainly been a struggle, I think, to work through a lot about that. But tho those conversations I think have been really good. So I, I did wanna ask you though, would you advise.

Everyone listening, who, you know, comes from a broken family, like you and me, would you advise that they would have that conversation with their parents? Are there any situations where maybe you wouldn't advise. That's a good question. I would hope that for most people they would have an opportunity to have that conversation with their parents.

I just, I think it is so it's so like an important aspect of the healing process to be able to like share and be vulnerable and honest with the people who have hurt you and, and vice versa. Like, like you were saying, they. Taking ownership of your mistakes is, is so essential because it, it allows that that relationship to go deeper because you're, you're making a decision at that point to be vulnerable.

And when you're vulnerable that opens the door to like intimacy and a deeper relationship. And so, and so when they're, when they choose not to do that, it it's very clear, like where they want the relationship to stay. And so I, I would, I hope, and I pray that for listeners who, you know, who are dealing with their parents' divorce, like that, they get to have an opportunity to do that.

There may be situations where that is not healthy. Like if their parents are extremely toxic and, and abusive, or I, I don't know, like if. If it wouldn't, if it would lead to more harm to have that conversation, maybe like, it wouldn't be a good idea, but I think generally speaking for most cases, I think it, I think it would be a, a great place to start for healing.

I agree with that. And I, I think you deserve to know what happened too. It's always a tricky balance and I'm sure we can go into this a lot, but we'll, we'll try to keep moving, but it's always a tricky balance. I think for parents to figure out like how much to share with their kids. I remember my mom when I was 11 sharing a lot of details that looking back I'm like, I don't know if that was the best, to be honest.

I understand. Like, I'm glad I know, but, uh, man, it was earth shattering. And so yeah, at the same time, I think of the alternative like, well, what if she didn't share those things? What would've happened? I probably would. Figured some stuff out or tried to find answers. And so mm-hmm, certainly a, a tricky situation.

Yeah. And it's, it's interesting because that's one of the questions I asked my mom, like, why did you leave without saying anything? Yeah. Like, why didn't you explain anything to us? And, and even like, just tell us how you were feeling. And, and she was, you know, she, and I think I understand her a lot more now as a mom, myself.

And she said, um, that she wanted to protect us. Like, she, she didn't know how, like you said, she didn't know how much to share, because once you kind of opened that can of worms, it's just like everything. Like we would've known everything and that was, it may have been too much, but at the same time, it's like, just even to have like a little explanation like that, would've been so helpful for me to make sense of what was going on.

And even like now I, in our. Current relationship. Like I'm constantly trying to tell my mom to like, just tell me how you're feeling like open up, like, cause she's, it is just kind of her personality. And also like culturally, like it's, it's not very like common to be like emotionally open to your, with your children, um, as a Korean.

And, and so I'm constantly telling her, like, I wanna know like what is going on? Like even the bad stuff, like even the, like the negative feelings, like I wanna know those things, because that allows me to feel closer to you. And so that's just, that's something that we're like always working on in our relationship.

So yeah. It's and when it came, comes to my dad, that there's another thing I wanted to share that came up. Um, it, I think when it comes to my dad, like, like you said, I, I, I love my dad. Like he, um, I, uh, there's still a lot of hurt there, um, that I think like, I, I might always have to deal with, but I still love him.

And I think something that was really helpful for me to like, get to finally get to this point is I remember like one night I was praying and I, uh, I was at this, I think it was at a time in my life where I was just going through a lot, like processing, going to therapy, all this, all these things. Yeah.

And I was just asking God to like, give me some way to heal or like, like let go of all the hate that I had, um, for my dad. And like, I remember kind of in my prayer, I was imagining myself, like at the foot of the cross, you know, I'm like looking up at Jesus, hanging on the cross and I'm on my knees and I'm holding my hands up like this.

And I was like crying and, and just like. Being aware of like the mistakes that I had made cuz I, I, you know, I struggled a lot and I made a lot of mistakes and I'm telling, I was telling God, I'm sorry. And I remember like kind of having this vision where I like looked to my right and my dad was standing right next to me in the same position on his knees with his hands up like this.

And it dawned on me that like the love that God has for me, he has that same amount of love for my dad. He doesn't love me anymore. He doesn't love my dad anymore. It's like, like the SA the amount of love that he has for us is equal. Even though it's like personal and intimate, like for each of us it's he loves my dad and he's forgiven my dad.

Like just as much as he's forgiven me. And so that was just like, so eye-opening, to me that. I, I can be capable of forgiving my dad too. And yeah, I mean, like going back to, you know, sharing details of, of like the divorce, as I learned more of, of what had happened in my parents' marriage, like it would bring up a lot of those feelings again, of like her and abandonment and just like shock at how, like my dad treated my mom, but like I could, I was still able to like, go back to that vision of like, God still loves my dad.

Like he loves him so much. And so I can love him too. Wow. You're making me tear up this beautiful. Oh gosh. yeah, no, it it's really, really beautiful. And I think there's something so heroic in everything you just shared too, because so many of us get so stuck in the hate. Yeah. And it just leaves us stuck in life, frankly.

That's what I've seen and experience. And so I think there's something so freeing about forgiveness and we've done, you know, episodes on forgiveness and yeah. Um, I, I think that's something that is really difficult, but worth going into, I wanted to ask you, what would you say to your parents if they were listening right now?

It's a heavy question. yeah, it is. You know, I, I think I've, I've said like everything I need to say yeah. Like, thankfully, like, I, I did get a chance to do that, so, but yeah, I, I think I would want them to know that, you know, what happened. Was not okay. Like it, it caused a lot of pain and, you know, we're all trying to still heal from that.

And, and maybe we will continue to work on that until we die. But I don't know. I guess I just want them to know that I love them. I think that's ultimately like I am hurt, but I still love them. And I think I have like a better understanding of why it happened and, and why they felt the need to like, make the choices that they made.

Not saying that. It was okay. But yeah, I think I can understand the pain and the turmoil that they were going through. It, it kind of prevented them from seeing anybody outside of themselves. And I can relate to that. Like, I've had moments too, like as a mom and as a wife, like I've had moments like that too, where I, I, I, all I can think about is myself and how I'm feeling and how I'm struggling, and I don't care about anybody else, you know?

And, and those are, you know, those, aren't my proudest moments, but I can understand why my parents had those moments as well. So yeah, I guess I would, that's what I would say. Like, I understand like why you did what you had to do, doesn't make it okay. But I still love you anyway. So good. I wanna shift gears with the time we have left to marriage.

Sure. Okay. So it it's really inspiring. I just first have to say. How beautiful your family is. Um, your marriage is, I'm sure it's not perfect, but none of us are , but it's, it's just really inspiring to see. And, you know, I knew a little bit of your backstory. Um, there's a great article that you were, uh, wrote for blessed Ashi it's, uh, nonprofit ministry, uh, for women, right.

If I'm getting that right? Yes mm-hmm and, uh, and we'll, we'll link to that article in the show notes guys, but, uh, hearing a little bit of your story through that. And then now hearing you share more deeply here, I have so much respect for you and it's just amazing. Just the life you've built, the marriage you've built, the family you've built.

I, I mean, I bet that if you were to go back to that, what 15 year old self, you probably wouldn't have thought that you could ever have what you have now was that right? Am I oh, absolutely. I didn't. I was like, I'm never getting married. Like, I, I was convinced that like, all marriages were gonna end, you know, like they were all going to fail or that all men would cheat and all this stuff.

So like, yeah, I it's. Thank you so much for those kind words. Um, yeah, it's, it's pretty amazing. Like how, um, how I got here and I have four beautiful kids and a very loving husband. It was definitely like, um, marriage is not what I expected to be like in, in good and bad ways, you know? Sure. Like it's so much more beautiful and like profound and sacred.

And it's, it's this beautiful union that, you know, we come into and then we like have children from it. It it's, it's amazing. Like, I, I, marriage is so beautiful, so I don't wanna. I don't want us to forget that, but it is so challenging. It is. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's way more challenging than I thought it would be.

Even from someone like who experienced my parents' divorce and didn't wanna get married. Like I had no idea what I was, what I was getting into, you know? Yeah. But it's, it's good. Like, I, I think, you know, when, when I saw, when I look back at my parents' marriage, I, I think of the way, like they hardly fought in front of us.

They didn't, they, they, weren't very good at teaching me how to resolve conflict and how to like have healthy arguments. And so. You know, when I got married and we started having fights, you know, like, and having arguments, like, of course that's gonna happen. But every time that happened, I was like, oh my gosh, like we're doomed.

Like our marriage is doomed to fail. I'm gonna repeat my parents' mistake, blah, blah, blah. Like all these fears would come up and. I got really good at avoiding conflict. Like I would just, I would just do whatever it took to like, not go there or if it did get there, I would just shut down and like hide in, in my little shell.

yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. And, and so that obviously, like, that was so frustrating for us. Like that was something that would come up repeatedly, like where my husband is. Like, we're trying to like figure something out. We're trying to resolve an issue. And I'm like, I refuse because if we go down, if we, if we try to like talk this out, like we're just gonna keep fighting and then we're gonna, you're gonna leave me, you know?

Um, and that was like the message that, that, like I was given. And I would like tell myself that, like, if we, if we keep fighting, like we're gonna end up in divorce. And so it was, yeah, it was just a really, like, I had to shift the way I, we view conflict, like. Conflict is gonna happen, like regardless, like it's, it's inevitable.

absolutely. Um, yeah, and I mean, it it's just like any two people with their own issues and their own baggage. Like when you come together, like issues are gonna come up, like let's just, let's just accept that. Right. yeah. Amen. But for me, it was like really hard to accept because I, I thought like our marriage had to be perfect.

Like we couldn't ever fight, we couldn't ever argue. Like, and so over the years it's been, it's been just very surprising to me, like how conflict would actually lead to resolution, which would actually lead to me feeling even more loved and like even more intimate with my husband, because like, I could be so vulnerable.

Like I could show him. All the sides of myself, like the good and the bad and the ugly. And he would still love me. And like, I could, I could just be totally raw and open with like all of the issues or like with my past or whatever you wanna call it. And he's just like, IM not gonna leave you. Like I'm , you know, like he, it was like, he would prove to me that he was fighting for me and he was fighting for our marriage, even in those moments where I was so ready to give up.

When we would just have arguments that seemed to like, not get anywhere, I'm like, I'm done, you know, like I was just so ready to like, just give up and he's like, no, I'm not giving up. Like we are gonna figure this out, you know, . And, and that was just so like, it was just not what I expected and. It, it just ended up with me feeling even more loved, you know, like knowing that I could be truly myself and he would love me.

So yeah. that's so I know that's so beautiful and I bet, I bet that just cuts to the core of your heart when you hear him say something like that, because for so long, you just, you know, like you said, you assumed that anyone who ever loved you or maybe said they loved you would eventually leave you and abandon you.

So mm-hmm, so, so beautiful. You touched on the struggle of conflict, uh, you know, you and I both know, and everyone listening knows that when you come from a broken family, relationships can be extra challenging. Yeah. And you know, similar with you, I was trained. It's kind of funny to say it like that, but we really, I think, need to talk about like this.

I was trained very poorly to handle conflict. Yes. And that training came from the school of love that I went through in my family. Right. Um, which sadly was very broken. And so when it came my turn to build my own marriage, oh yeah. I, I was still lost and you know, I'm still, we're still figuring a lot of it out, but yeah, we, it is beautiful.

Those situations, like you said, where you. Have the conflict and then resolve it. Cause the way I saw it growing up was mom and dad would have an argument, usually get loud and then one or both of them would just walk away. Maybe they resolved it later, but us kids never saw it. And so we just kind of got this bread into our DNA that like, well, that's just kind of what couples do is you fight, you go your separate ways and things never get resolved, which is obviously a recipe for disaster in any way.

right, right. Cause you're like, what does it even look like to have like a healthy argument and to come to resolution? Like it's just, it was never modeled for us. Exactly. Yeah. And I think people who don't come from broken families, um, might struggle with that. And anyhow, I, we, we can go into that maybe a little bit later, but I, I was curious like what, what other struggles have you faced in your relationships and in your marriage that maybe we haven't touched on already?

I think just kind of the way we cope with our emotions. Like I. I learned to adapt to my situation with unhealthy coping mechanisms. And so it's very hard for me not to wanna jump back into those things now, like when I have conflict in, in my own marriage or with, within anybody, like it, it doesn't even have to be within marriage.

Like if I'm, if I feel like conflict with my sister or my mom or with God, like it's like, I will immediately like revert to kind of like the way that I coped back, you know, when I was dealing with my parents' divorce. Yeah. Not, and, and not even like actually going through with it, but like wanting to do, wanting to go back there.

It's so attractive in those moments. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's like, when you're young, when you experience your parents' divorce and you're young, it's. Your, I feel like your brain is just like UN survival mode. Yeah. And so it like it, like I was talking about this with my therapist. It's like, it, you literally, your brain will rewire itself to survive and to protect yourself.

Wow. And so it's like all that work and therapy that I was doing, it, it, it was like rewiring my brain and changing those messages that I had told myself. Like, if you, if you like go and do these things, like you'll feel so much better. You know? And like, obviously they're not healthy ways. So it's just like, I had to learn how to like rewire and then like, figure out what can I actually do?

Like, what are positive and healthy ways to deal with this situation and to cope with, with like my emotions, like think having control of my emotions, or like being able to like regulate my O own emotions was something that wasn't taught to me. And so like now as a mom, it's like, it that's something that like, I struggle with a lot, like with my kids, like learning how to regulate my emotions so that we can help them regulate their emotions.

Like if, yeah. If they see me flying off the handle, like they're gonna, they're not gonna know how to deal with that. And they're gonna also fly off the handle, you know? Sure. So it's just like, yeah, it's just, um, I think. I think the beauty of all of this, like as hard as it was and as painful as it was, it brought up, it, it like brought about so much self-awareness and being aware of the pain that I felt, it helped me to realize, like, I do not want this to happen to my kids.

And, um, and I don't want this to happen to my marriage. And so it's like, I think in a way it was like a, a way to kind of grab the, the power back and be like, I'm not gonna let this happen. I have the power to make choices now to prevent this from happening with my own family. So yeah, that's, that's something that, you know, we're, we're always working on and sure.

I hope, you know, like I know we will continue to work on. Absolutely. And I've seen people, especially who maybe are a little bit further than us along in the path of marriage and family. Um, I've seen them just fight like hell to not repeat the cycle. Yeah. And I hear the same thing in you, and I don't know if anyone will truly ever understand how difficult it can be to like, fight against that.

But, um, yeah, it's so worth it and it is beautiful. And I know we have a baby girl and I just like, love her more than anything in the world. And I, uh, yeah, she's so motivating for me, just like, man, I, I just wanna give her the best of everything and I just don't want her to, you know, have to deal with what my siblings and I had to deal with growing up.

Mm-hmm and so, yeah, I can see how that that's so motivating. Were there any specific lessons or skills that you learned again, you mentioned learning how to handle conflict in a healthy way. Were there any other lessons or skills that were maybe the most valuable in overcoming those struggles that you, you faced?

I think being aware of how I, um, how, how I view, I think for me, like conflict was the biggest thing. Being aware of how I deal with conflict, like gathering tools to kind of go against what my instincts are and to do the healthier thing. Like my husband and I came upon, uh, the Gottman Institute. Have you heard of them before?

Um, John, John Gottman? Yeah. I mean, great work. I don't know if our listeners know, but I love their work. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I mean, just really quick. It's there's um, I believe he's a psychologist. He, he and his wife, I may be wrong. Um, but they have studied married couples for years and years and years and, and studied the way they, um, they argue and how they address conflict.

And they've like somehow have come up with like, A way to like, I, I guess they say that when they, um, like observe how couples argue, they have like this like a 95% accuracy rate where they can tell if they're going to end up in divorce or not. Wow. And it's just like, whoa, like so much. Yeah. Like there's so much that, um, like just the way that you address conflict that can like make such a huge difference.

And, um, and they talk about the four horsemen in, in conflict. So like, these are things that like drive a wedge between you and your spouse and, and can possibly lead to divorce. And, um, do you, do you know, the, the four horsemen are, I, I know one of them is like, um, Can you, can you remind me of that? Yeah, no, no, you're totally fine.

It, it is. Some of them are hard to, to remember. Um, but the, the first one from memory is, um, criticism. Yes. And, and the difference between criticism and maybe critique is that you're attacking a person as opposed to, uh, giving feedback on a situation or something like that. Right. Or their like behavior you're attacking their character and not their behavior.

Exactly. Right. Exactly. Okay. Yeah. And then I think one was like defensiveness. Yeah. I think, yeah. I think the second one, um, I think defensiveness is three. If I remember right. You correct me if I'm wrong. Uh, the second one I think is really related to criticism, which is contempt and a Gotman defines it as the, uh, psychological or the intention to psychologically harm.

Your spouse. So it's kind of, Sadis sadistic in a way. It's like we are in a way trying to get back at them for hurting us. Yes. And then, and then defensiveness, like you said, which yeah. Take it away. Yeah. And then the, the last one was, um, stonewalling, which is where you, you build up like those walls around you and you don't let any, you don't let your spouse in, you don't let anybody penetrate that, those walls that you've built around you.

And that was like, that was the one for me. And so I, I think like just being aware and. Having resources, like going out and, and finding resources and get like, gathering like those tools that we could put into our tool belt so that when things come up, we can remember, we can, we can learn, we can grow. So, yeah, that, that was really helpful for us.

I think for my husband too, like, cuz he comes from an intact family and I know you, you said you wanted to talk about this a little bit where please. Yeah. They, you know, they don't, they don't fully understand like what it's like to be a child of divorce and, and they can't like, they will never fully be able to understand because obviously they haven't gone through it.

But absolutely. I think for my husband, if I could speak to anybody who's in that position, my husband's position, I think what's, what's so helpful. He didn't try to like, solve my issues. Like he wasn't there to fix the problem or to be my therapist. Like, like that's not his role. And it, he was simply there to like, just listen.

Like I think for me, like what I needed to do was just to like share and to let, let it out and kind of have it out in the open and he would listen. And yeah. So I, I think if I could speak to anybody in that position, like, you don't need to fix their issues. You don't need to be there to like fix their family situation.

All, I think all your spouse needs is, is like to know that you're there, that you support them, that you're listening. Um, being a good listener is like, is so important. And to know like that. Like their pro their issues and their family history. It's not too much for you. It's like, it's not too like too much work, you know?

Like, I think that was something that was so, um, that was a big fear for me. Like my husband, like he's, he doesn't wanna deal with all of this. Like, this is too much for him, you know? And it is just, he was just like, you know, proving over and over and over again. Like, no, like I'm here to stay. Like, I'm, I'm here with you till the end.

Like it, it doesn't matter like what you did and, and you know, like what the family situation is. It, it does matter, but it's not gonna change my love for you. Beautiful. Maggie. We're running outta time. I don't wanna keep you forever. We could talk forever I'm sure. Sure. And we'll have to have you back another time, but, uh, if people wanna follow you, how could they do.

You can follow me on Instagram. My, um, handle is at Maggie Kim 49, or you can email me. My email address is M Y E E 49, gmail.com. Um, and I'm also, I, um, contribute blogs to blessed to she, um, which is a great, amazing ministry and organization. And so if I, um, you know, write blogs for them. So you could also find some of my writing there too.

Sounds awesome. Was there anything from blessed to she or anything that you've created that you kind of wanted to make people aware of that maybe would, would help them even just grow as a person, even if they don't come from a broken family? Oh, um, nothing personally, like I've, I've written some blogs here and there, there, there is, um, a blog that I wrote about Saint quotes for broken families.

Um, which I think resonated with a lot of people, but yeah, I. So, this is not something I've done personally, but they, you know, have created like devotionals and journals and retreats and mentoring, like programs that are beautiful and amazing and have been so helpful to so many women. So, um, and I mean, it's not just, just cater to women, it's cater to anybody, but I think what most women would like resonate with them.

So anyways, yeah. It's they have really great stuff there. Okay. Guys, make sure to check that out. We'll link to everything Maggie mentioned in the show notes, including her handle her email. Uh, Maggie, thank you so much for being here. I want to just give you the last word I closing out here. Uh, would encouragement.

What advice would you give to someone who comes from a broken family and they feel really broken. They feel really stuck in life. Maybe they're struggling in some serious ways. What advice? What, what, what advice, what encouragement would you give to someone like that? Yeah, I, I think first of all, I, I wanna say.

I'm so sorry that this happened to you. Um, it's not fair to you and, and I understand like how, how painful it is and how you can feel stuck. But I also want them to know that it's not their fault. I, I think a lot of children who experience their parents' divorce, like they, they think somehow it, it was because of them like that they they're at fault.

And that is so far from the truth. I think that the devil is really good at filling our heads with those lies. And like, I, I, yeah. I mean, I, I think he wants to like, Keep us in, in that darkness. So I think something that would be really helpful is to just like share your story and to bring it, bring light to it.

Because, because when you do that, the devil has no power over you and he no longer has that power over the situation. So if anything, like, I just want to empower people to know, like they can tell their story, they can share their experience. And I think that would bring a lot of healing. And just to know that you aren't.

You have the power to change your family history. Like you don't need to repeat the cycle of divorce. Um, you can make a decision right now to do things differently, um, to make, you know, different choices and that's gonna change, you know, your family for generations and you have the power to do that. So I just encourage people to just be aware of that and to be empowered.

And, and to also know that I'm praying for, for all of you. And I hope that you're praying for me too, because we're all on this journey of healing together and that's okay. Like I think it it's okay to be healing. It's okay to. Be there at the end of that journey of healing yet, but we can do it together.

You guys, you're not alone.

I love that conversation so much wisdom, so much hope. And for all you parents listening, I actually wanna pose a question to you and I don't mean this harshly at all. In what ways? Can you take ownership for the things that happened in your family like Maggie's mom did. And I'm not saying that you caused everything that happened in the breakdown of your marriage and your family, but it's so helpful for us as the children to hear our parents take ownership.

And this honestly has been a struggling point for me and my siblings. And so how can you take ownership of your piece of the brokenness and communicate that to your kids? And that second part is important, communicating that to your kids. And we'll be coming out with more content on how to do that properly, but it's so important to eventually open the door, talking with your kids about everything that happened.

It can be extremely healing for them. And also for you. I just wanted to quickly mention, if you wanna share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. You can do that by going to restored ministry. Dot com slash story. There's a form in that page to help you tell a short version of your story, and then we'll take that, turn it into an anonymous blog article.

So if you wanna do that, we'd love to hear from you. Just go to ReSTOR ministry.com/story, or click on the link in the show notes. Again, if you're interested in booking a speaking engagement, you can go to ReSTOR ministry.com/speaking, or click the link in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening.

If this has been useful, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's really struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#063: The Antidote to Trauma | Margaret Vasquez

When your parents’ marriage and family break apart, it’s traumatic for you as their son or daughter. 

That trauma is not only painful, but also has devastating effects on you that last for a long time. As a result, you need to heal. But how? 

Our guest today, a trauma therapist, shares the antidote or opposite of trauma. We discuss:

• The 4 principles you need to live out to prevent and heal from trauma

• One thing you can today, right away, to heal and grow

• Why feeling worthless is a major problem that you need to address in order to feel whole again

If you want peace, freedom, and great relationships, this episode is for you. 

Buy Margaret’s book: FEARLESS: Abundant Life through Infinite Love (affiliate link)

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Margaret Vasquez

  • margaret@sacredhearthealingministries.com

  • Sacred Heart Healing Ministries

  • Episode 37: Trauma: What It Is and How It Damages You | Margaret Vasquez

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When your parents' marriage and family falls apart, it's traumatic for you as their son or daughter. That trauma though is not only painful, but also has devastating effects on you that lasts for a long time. And as a result, you need to heal. But how my guest today, a trauma therapist shares the antidote to trauma, the opposite of trauma, as she says, We discussed the four principles you need to live out to prevent and heal from trauma.

She also shares one thing that you can do today right now to heal and grow. We talk about why feeling worthless is a major sign and problem that you need to address in order to feel whole again. Now, if you want peace, if you want freedom, if you want great relationships, this episode is for you. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce. Separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 63. You've probably heard that my new book is available on Amazon. It's titled it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce.

And the sad truth is that for a lot of teens and young adults, the most traumatic thing that they've endured is their parents' separation or divorce, but nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and all the problems that stem from their. Breakdown. And without that guidance, they continue to feel alone and struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles and so much more.

And I experienced these issues, these problems firsthand when my parents broke apart and it really shouldn't be this way. It's not your fault. My new book is an answer to that problem. It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by teens and young adults who come from broken families, such as after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted and adequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me.

What's your advice for navigating in the holidays? And other life events. How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage and so much more? And the content itself is based on research, expert advice and real life stories. And after reading, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents' separation or divorce, how to.

Build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems to learn some healing tactics, to help them feel whole again, how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions about their future. Now, if you wanna buy the book or if you want to get the first chapters free, just go to restored ministry.com/books.

Again, that's restored ministry.com. Slash books, or just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Margaret Vasquez. After over 15 years of treating trauma clients of all ages presenting to a wide variety of groups in person and through guests appearances on E WTN radio shows and podcasts.

Margaret began serving as a consultant for Franciscan university of Steubenville Institute. For diaconal renewal and presenting workshops and retreats to religious priests, deacons, and lay people. She now makes those same retreats and workshops available to you in her new book, fearless and through online retreats and workshops.

And as you might remember, I interviewed Margaret in episode 37 trauma, what it is and how it damages you. And we heard a lot of good feedback about that episode. This episode is equally as good, and I'm thrilled to. With Margaret again. And before we dive into the conversation, I wanna say that we do talk about God somewhat in this episode.

And if you don't believe in God, I'm so glad that you're here. This show is for everyone, not just religious people. And my challenge for you is this, listen with an open mind, even if you take the God parts out, I'm super confident that you're still gonna benefit from this conversation. And so here it.

Margaret. It's so good to have you back on the show. Thanks for being here. Thanks Joey. It's great to be. I was especially excited to talk with you again, because you're an expert on trauma and what the people that we're serving are dealing with so often is trauma from their broken families. And so I'm excited to speak with you, and I'm excited to tell everyone about this book that you've written because as I understand it, and you correct me if I'm wrong here, the framework that you offer really is an antidote to trauma.

So two questions for you. 1:00 AM I overstating that? And two, is there anything else you would say about the problem that this book solve? I see it as definitely not even just the antidote of trauma, but trauma prevention as well. Like when people are looking to like build their own families. Right. And also like one of the, when I'm, when I'm working with people in, in treatment in my office and I lay out the concept, be behind the book, we use it throughout the week for them to understand the why behind, like, why the things they've gone through.

Are particularly painful, hurtful difficult, because a lot of times people tend to minimize those things and think, well, if I just wasn't a whim or if I just had a thicker skin, or if I just wasn't so sensitive or, or this or that, and or people have been through worse, I hear that a lot. And I think when people can understand why things were painful and hurtful and that it was actually because the situation was not what we're made for, then they're able.

One not minimize it. And then so really be able to experience compassion and be compassionate towards themselves about it. And then also it puts 'em on a better trajectory going forward to be able to understand why those ways are not the ways to relate to others in the future. Right. Cuz they really understand the, the whole picture.

So. beautiful. I love it. It makes me think of, I've heard it said that who's more of the hero, a firefighter who puts out a fire, or maybe a firefighter who puts in a fire prevention system. And in a lot of ways, it's like, well, prevention is, is beautiful. And so either way, if someone's been through trauma, they can benefit from the book.

If they maybe haven't and they. Avoid that, or prevent that from happening, then they can benefit from the book. So really, really beautiful. Mm-hmm what would you say is the outcome or the transformation that you want for each person who, who reads the books and start more than reading it? Who puts it into action?

Who starts living this out? What's that outcome that you want for them simply stated it would be able to, to live, um, in the fullness of, uh, healthy. Connection communion with others and healthy integration with themself, and then hopefully healthy union with God, if for those who are on that track, because it's really like the essence of connection, whether it's to God, ourselves or others, it, it all comes down to the same principles.

So. Beautiful. And let's talk about that a little bit, like abundant life and other words that I would use for that too. And I know you would agree would be thriving or flourishing. Sure. Yeah. What do we mean when we say that? Cause I think for a lot of people, especially who have a really broken background, they may have never tasted that they may have no real concept of flourishing or thriving or some sort of abundant life.

Like, I dunno what that means. What would you say to someone who doesn't really can't relate to. Words. Yeah. Well, I just think, you know, a little bit about my history, right. And I, I grew up in a crazy amount of dysfunction and trauma. And so I, I came by the field honestly. Right. And so, yeah, I never understood that life could really be about something more than trying to like quiet the, the discord and confusion and drama, you know?

So I really like the definition of. Peace. That's more of like Shalom, right? Like, so the definition for that is like wholeness there's sense of completeness and fullness and that kind of thing, as opposed to the absence of discord. So to me, abundant life is such a sense of fullness and, and completeness that then it overflows to the others in your lives as well.

Mm. So good. And I, I would say too, that the byproduct of that is joy, which I think we all want, we want happiness. Oh yeah. Would you agree with. Oh, yeah, absolutely joy. Freedom. Yeah. Yeah. I think both of those words come to mind. beautiful. And I love what you said too. And I think so, so many of us have been there and even the people listening right now might be there right now.

It's just in the survival mode where perhaps even in a victim mode where they've, you know, gone through a lot and they just feel powerless and hopeless. And so I think this is very timely, so many people need, and I'm just really excited to, uh, to dive into this book. So in the book, you'd say that true, authentic.

Healthy connection is the antithesis of trauma. It's the antidote, like we said, why is that? Let's break into that a little bit more. Why is that the antidote? Yeah. Well, I see it like, as, I guess let's say I, I use the word antithesis because I see it as like the opposite of trauma, right? If like trauma is what we are not made for.

And so therefore it does damage to us on all different levels, physically, emotionally, spiritually, cognitively, relationally, you know, and the list goes on. Then, if that's true of trauma, then connection is that for which we're made. And it's really that by which we grow in personal integration, like meaning like our personal sense of self, our really our ability to, to really feel comfortable in our own skin, which is a really big deal.

And to be able to relate to others with a sense of starting with the needle on fall instead of the needle on empty mm-hmm . So we're really able. To relate from a sense of freedom where it's really, I can engage with you from a place of being filled up first. And so then it overflows to you rather than going.

Each interaction, really hoping that this desperate need in me somehow gets filled up by this person. And that's just such a, a setup for crazy making, you know? So I see connection is really, uh, what we're made for, because it's what causes that, that personal integration and that true piece and joy and freedom between people and relationships and that sense of, of growing union with God.

So good. And would you say, let's say someone's listening right now and like, well, I've kind of messed up in my relationships. I've built maybe this unhealthy reliance on another person. Like I feel half empty, you know, all the time, will this book kind of help them course? Correct too. Like, I, I know we're talking about prevention and maybe people in their mind, they might think if I don't use it beforehand.

And then I get in this situation where I'm really broken things. Aren't good. Can this help me course? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So can I share, I'll share a story. So I was doing some follow up work for some people who had gone through trauma therapy and this one particular situation. It was a, a 16 year old boy and his mother.

And there was just a lot of conflict in their relationship because a lots of the stuff that he had been through. So just wrote out the framework really simply it's back. And I had a really simple model of it, and I really just on a page, drew a circle and divided into four quadrants and just wrote in those quadrant.

Boundaries valued, known and openness. I mean, it was just super rudimentary way of describing it to them, but I showed it to both of them and, and said, this is what we all need in relating. And when those things are there, like things are great. And when those things aren't there, everything goes sideways really fast, you know?

And so it was so cool. You know, I didn't like anticipate this cuz it was one of the first settings like that, where I was describing this to people after I'd started seeing. Kind of like a way of understanding human and spiritual integration mm-hmm . But by describing it to this mom and this son, and write, just writing it on this piece of paper and sitting it on the table in front of them.

Now, all of a sudden they were sitting like shoulder to shoulder and looking at this piece of paper and it was like, okay, this is what. We both need. And, and so this is what, where we feel like how you related to, you know, your father and I, what the mom would say, wasn't there, you know, it felt like you've crossed our boundaries or, you know, whatever by violating curfew or what, and for him, it was like, okay, I can understand that.

But like, , I didn't feel like you guys really understood how important going to that event was to me, you know? So I really didn't feel known cuz didn't feel like you, you know, listened to and, and so it was so cool, you know, I'm just like I'm watching this. Interaction take place and thinking how beautiful it was that it went from.

Well, you're a bad kid. Well, you're a mean mom into, before they had that framework of understanding, basically like rules of engagement. Right. And once they had that, then suddenly there was a common. A common goal and a common understanding of we want connection with each other. And I was just like, that was so cool.

And then the, the boy, the teen, he was going to his high school. And, uh, so over the next couple of weeks he would come in and I would be able to ask him about his week in terms of like his relationships with his parents, with his girlfriend or with his friends at school mm-hmm in terms of those connection factors.

And by the first week he came in after, you know, the. Just understanding, you know, explanation. He came in, he was able to explain what was working and what wasn't basically in his life, in terms of those four things. By the second week, he was able to do it without any prompting from me. It was like he had already like, Put his life up against the captain crunch, decoder ring.

Right. And like, knew how to talk about it. By the third week he came in saying that he was able to adjust on the fly in relationships with his girlfriend and his friends and his parents, like in his, just in his mind, like having those simple factors and he was relating to somebody and he felt like, okay, like, there's a block here.

There's a wall here. How this person's responding to me. Something doesn't feel smooth in his head. He just went by those. things and was able to like, yeah. Self correct, like in, in real time. And I was like, wow, that. That was like, that felt like a big victory. Amazing. Yeah. Right. 16 year old that's male, you know, that was like, it felt like a big deal.

Yeah. If it would feel a big deal to be able to teach that to a clinician and have him kind of master it in three weeks, but a 16 year old, it was great. Yeah. No, that's, that's amazing. And you know, Us men, especially when we're teenagers aren't necessarily known for thriving. Well, you know, in the principles of you teach , what was that?

I wasn't gonna say it, but if you want to, yeah. I could say it . Yeah. Some are more advanced than others, but, uh, yeah. Yeah. I was like relating things that I'm learning for the first time, which I'm learning here is something I know. And it makes me think of like a preflight checklist almost. It's exactly a pre a preflight checklist.

I don't know the whole history, but basically after some accidents happened, because pilots who were taking planes off forgot to do really important things. Wow. They put in place, these checklists and these checklists have saved lives basically. Oh wow. Because they force. The pilots to perform this routine, right.

To make sure everything with the plane is healthy. Everything with the plane is functioning and literally it's saved lives. And so it almost makes me think this is kinda like a preflight preflight checklist for relationships. Yeah. And midflight , you can midflight right. There you go. And like we're losing altitude, right?

Like, right. So good love it. So let's get into the principles. So as you mentioned, there are four principles and, uh, I, yeah, I'm just so excited for people to learn them. So if you would teach us, break down these principles, how they work, we can start with value or however you wanna take it. But I was thinking we would start with value.

Cause I think that is the first actually, if, if it's okay with you, I'll start with boundaries because it just kind of makes the most sense to me. So yeah, go ahead. Um, which, okay, so, so I basically look at it like. Boundaries are the first things that we kind of kind of hit up against each other, uh, or hit up against when we're relating to each other.

Right. Is, um, which I would say like a basic sense of safety and respect and because we're body, mind and spirit, we, we get boundaries in all three of those areas. And even more than, than get boundaries, we as a kind of, as a. But like, we have them as a responsibility too. Right. We have a responsibility to set boundaries because those things are, are good self care.

And they enabled me to be able to bring my, a game to a situation. So I think a lot of times we don't get. Taught about boundaries or we get sent, you know, most often people tell me that they got sent a negative message about boundaries, like the boundaries weren't allowed. And I know for myself, got the message, like, who do you think you are if you're setting a, you know, if you're setting a boundary or something.

Hmm. But boundaries are really that first thing that we encounter when we're encountering the other. And, but I think when, when we have a basic sense of safety and respect from that person, then we naturally open. A little bit, you know, okay. I, I feel general sense of safety with this person, but we kind of see what they're about.

Right. And so then that door opens a little bit and I think the next, um, kind of chamber within that, that we reach is value. And I'd say value is if this person's respectful of my boundaries and they continue to relate to me in a way that shows me that they regard me with value based on my dignity as a human person.

or, you know, dignity as a child of God, then, then, okay. Then I feel a little bit safer and I'll even open that door a little bit. You know, it's a very different story when we are relating to somebody and we have a sense that they respect our boundaries. And so we open a little and then all of a sudden we start getting the message.

It's all about what I can get from you. You know what I mean? Right. Or it's based on like your looks or your money or your status or performance or your productivity, you know, there's. there's something in there that I'm trying to get outta you rather than just like, regarding you with dignity because you, you are.

And so then when that door opens a little, then I think what happens next is then we really like, let me let this person like really see and hear a little bit about who I really am. Right. And if they take the time to do that, then there's that sense of feeling known, right? If, if I'd say if. if we experience being seen and heard as an individual, who's very good.

Just very good. Like in our, in our essence, right? Like just again, because we are, it's not something we have to earn. And when that happens, then there's, there's this natural connection, you know, originally when I was seeing it as. Boundaries valued, known, and openness. I had an experience that taught me like, oh, you can't make an end run for openness.

Like, okay, all those things are nice, but I want this person to open. So I'm just gonna try to get my battering Ram out and bash that, that door down. Well, you can't, but when you relate to people, In a way that respects their boundaries and values them inherently. And you take the time to see and hear them as an individual.

Who's very good. That openness naturally happens because it's what we're made for. We're made for connection. I would, I throw chosen in there too, like really at the core, because sometimes the chosen being chosen is more of a it's more time limited, you know, it's not a forever kind of thing. Like really simple example would.

Being in a restaurant and wait staff is coming over and they're throwing the coasters on the table and they're like, hi, how's everybody doing today? You know? And like, good, good, good. If you don't look up, you know, or anything, and everything goes along, you know, just fine. But if you look up and you're like, oh, I'm doing well.

How are you doing? A lot of times they're like, oh, they're kind of taken back. And they're like, oh, I'm doing well. Thanks for asking, you know, it's almost like they kind of stammer like, oh my gosh, you're talking to me, like, I'm a human and not just what's between you and your stake, you know, or something like that, you know?

Yeah. Fair. So that's just being chosen in that moment. You know, it's not, you're gonna send a Christmas card necessarily to this person who waited on you and some relationships are a lot more, they last longer family relationships or friend relationships or things like that. And, and certainly when it.

Talking about it from a spiritual standpoint, it's at the core of our relationship with the Lord. He chose us first. And I think that same way that boundaries are the things we, we meet first with others and then being valued and then being known and then being chosen. I think it's really like when we talk about it from a spiritual perspective, God actually starts on the inside.

Right? Like he chose you out of all the possibilities of people he could possibly. Choose to create and redeem and sanctify and call intimacy with himself. He chose to create you. And then, you know, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, right? And then his value for us and pouring himself out for us and, and giving himself to us daily.

And then looking at his boundaries, I'd say is protection and provision would be kind of how I look at boundaries that seeing, looking at that from the Lord as, as morality, Really. And so it's like, because I choose, I chose to create you and I know you and I've poured myself out for you. Then I sat before you life and death, please, please, please use life.

It's gonna be so much easier if you do, you know, and in that way, being able to see boundaries from the Lord as. that's what he has for us instead of what he wants from us. Hmm. Because it makes a really big difference in how we receive it. You know, I, for myself, I went through a pretty significant period of time in my life where morality felt much more like what God wanted from me mm-hmm instead of it.

So ended up kind of much more like the older brother and the prodigal son where it's like, you. why is this guy get a fatted calf? And like, I'm over here busting my hump. And I don't even have, you know, a party with my friend, you know, kind of thing, you know, you get bitter and that kind of thing. Totally.

Instead of being able to receive the boundaries as, as gift, you know, primarily as God's protection and, and that kind of thing. So, so yeah, so I think it, it starts at the core. It starts on the inside, cuz God's on the inside, right? Not on the. wow. There's so much there. I know when my parents were going through their divorce and you know, I, I know they probably didn't intend this.

So often I felt like the only time I was involved in maybe their lives on a deep levels when they needed something from me, mm-hmm . And I think so often we see that with the people that we work with is that we almost, we feel used in a way by our parents. And I think just what you said at the end there about God, we just tend to project that image onto God thinking he's the same as our parents.

And so, you know, I, I think that's why a lot of people have an aversion to a relationship with God. It's like. I don't wanna be treated like that. I don't wanna be used. I don't think that he's worth my time, because if he's like my parents then, well, that's not something I'm wanna be a part of. So yeah.

There's a lot there. Anything you would say to that? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I feel like you logged, lobbed it right over the plate on that. So. When I went through trauma therapy, I came back from, from going through, you know, it was like intensive treatment and I came back home and I, I went to pray and I went to the, up to the chapel and I was sitting there and.

God took me like through that in my head showed me like how my father was, but like how he is and how my mom is. So to each one of those takeaway messages about how they parented me to the difference in how he is. And so just this past week with a person I was working with, we ended up with a whole sheet at the end of.

The week of something that, you know, the truth about God, and it was like, dad did this, but God does this, you know, mom did this, but God does that, you know, or that kind of thing. So parents are meant to image God for us. But unfortunately, sometimes that image isn't, it's not very favorable and so very sorted go back.

Yeah. And like rework. no. So true. Yeah, no, I've had to do, you know, a lot of work myself with kind of storing that it's something, right. To be honest, I'm wrestling with a bit right now. Um, just kind of going back to the basics in a way of seeing like, okay, you know, God, do you really want me, or are you just trying to get something out of me?

It's a very honest place to be, I think, especially to take that to prayer. Um, and I realize a lot of people listening might be opposed to that, but I would challenge you if you're listening right now. And you're just very opposed to a relationship with God. Why is that, you know, give us some thought. I think it's, it's worth thinking about it's worth kind of digging into a bit.

And I know it's been very fruitful when I've done that and just ask those honest questions and just wait, listen, see what happens. You know, you probably won't hear an audible voice, but there might be something that happens in your life, whether it's someone. Saying something to you. Some, I don't know a song you hear, it can be something as simple as that, a realization you have, those are sorts of things.

God uses to communicate to me. It's never audible, but it's often through one of those means of a realization or a relationship or something that just kind of comes up in my life. Yeah. It's, uh, it cuts to the heart of so much. I think of our issues with God when we, yeah. You hit the now in the head talking about kind of this problem that we have with seeing God like our parents.

Yeah. Or authority, authority, other people in authority can do that as well. You know, coaches or teachers, they can do the same. Kind of thing, you know, can image God for us in a way that's not necessarily the biggest compliment to God , you know? Yeah. And so then we kind of take that on and go, uh, no, not doing that, you know, at the bottom line, like God disagrees with that every bit, as much as we do , you know, if not more.

Right. And I think that's been something that's given me. Encouragement to like dig into those areas when I just didn't wanna have anything to do with him. Yeah. No, beautiful. That's hard work. Um, it's not something he, it's not something that happens overnight, but that's beautiful. I wanna go back to just this whole framer.

I think it's genius because so often when we talk about these things, it's really kind of like the whole picture of a relationship. It's all the points that you need. To live out a beautiful relationship relationship, a meaningful relationship, a fulfilling relationship. So often I think we maybe just focus on one of these pieces, whether it's boundaries or value or openness, or as we can say, vulnerability, I know it's a big thing that a lot of people talk about.

And so I love that you've kind of put them all together because I, I think they fit together so well. And so going back to. Value. I think this is a big struggling point for a lot of people. We feel worthless. Like, and, and I think that low opinion of ourselves often leads us to even hate ourselves. Mm-hmm um, I know in the past I've had to wrestle with that myself.

And so people might hear this and be like, oh, value, whatever. But I, I think it becomes very practical when you. Kind of dig into it as you explained really well of like, okay, I feel worthless. I feel like I have no value. I feel like I'm not worth loving. I feel like my value only comes from my work or from succeeding in school or sports or mm-hmm , you know, whatever situation like that.

So I think a lot of people listening right now are there right now, they feel worthless. And because of that, All of this other stuff just breaks down. Yeah. And so that's kind why I intuitively I don't know if it was from a past conversation or not, or from the book I intuitively went to value cuz I was thinking, man, that's so foundational, but I, I think it's wise that you started with boundaries.

So yeah, I, growing up, I kind of got that instill in me that your value comes from more of a utilitarian point of view of. The value provided in your job, or like I said, school or sports, things like that, or even money, you know, how big is your bank account? Mm-hmm so when we're talking about value though, you, you hit on it before, but I wanna go a little bit deeper into this.

What do we mean by that? How can we say that people have inherent value? Is that really something that, um, People might disagree with that a little bit. I, I don't, but I, I think, uh, I think it's important to kind of explain a little bit more, so yeah. If you would, yeah. About that, the, yeah, I'd say the meaning of it is that we have an inherent dignity.

That's not contingent on any external factor at all. You know, and even if our, I think for females, a lot of times it's looks, you know, it's based on looks for guys. I think it's more on performance, you know? As in real general sweeping statement. Right. And, but when you take all of that away, there's still like a beauty to the human person, just because we're made in the image and likeness of God.

And so it doesn't matter if, when the wrinkles start to come and, and when you get slower, Running the marathon or, you know, or whatever it is, mm-hmm , then it doesn't matter. There's still a beauty there to, to the, the soul that's like that can't be seen and can't, doesn't have a price tag, you know? And so, and it's actually like, to me, like one of the things that proves the truth of it is actually because when people operate out of that belief and that truth, everything goes well.

And when they operate as though it's not true. Everything breaks down. Right. So, wow. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So to me, like it, it is its own proof. You know, this is, it is its own proof of truth. Like, because when people hinge their, their value on some arbitrary metric that's outside of themselves, then they usually either full of anxiety because now I have I'm self-reliant for my own value or.

Like overextending themselves and then super impatient with people who get in their way, because they have so much to accomplish because they're fighting for their own sense of right to be on the planet. And yet when people start from that place of that, they have inherent value. There's just, there's a freedom and a joy, you know, it goes back to those freedom and joy.

That really flows outwards and it, it's not self consumed, you know? And it's yeah. So it, it proves the truth of it to me, you know, within itself. Yeah. And I've seen that in action. Um, I'm thinking of someone right now who just puts so much received so much of their worth or value from their job. Mm-hmm and I remember this particular person was outta work for a long time and it just destroyed.

It just destroyed them. And once they got back into work, it was like they had life again, which mm-hmm I guess it was a good thing. I don't know how to think about that, cuz it wasn't good before that, but I wish there was this alternative, like why, you know, couldn't they see themselves as a valuable human, even if.

They didn't couldn't work. Didn't work, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And I think that better, we get that worked out before we retire. Right. Or we're gonna be pretty miserable, retired people. Gosh. Amen. Yeah. And one of the things, when you were speaking that came to mind is I think so many people doubt their value because of.

The mistakes that they've made. It's like, well, I've messed up so much in my life. I've mistreated people. I've heard people I've, you know, I have this addiction in my past or, you know, whatever had broken down in their past. I think so much. They, they look at that and they see. Well, I'm not really that valuable.

In fact, I pretty much just deserve to be punished and that's about it. But we're saying here, your value doesn't change based on even your own mistakes. Is that right? Or it might get into murky water there. Oh yeah, no, no, no, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Our values, of course, I come in from a Christian perspective.

So I'd say, you know, I look at it like when somebody's wearing a, a crucifix or a cross or whatever, like that's their price tag. Like, that's what they're worth, you know what I mean? And that doesn't change. Their price has been set, set and paid and it's not on them to, to pay it. And the price doesn't, it's not, somebody's going around and res stickering the price on them.

No beautiful. And that makes sense. And the book obviously goes into this a lot more, so we'll keep moving. One of the things I wanted to say, one of the most beautiful things about being a dad now is just that I can, you know, attempt to offer my daughter, uh, what I really wish I would've had. And one of the things that.

You know, I've seen a lot just in my life, especially in ministry, working with people, opening up to me is just that. So often there's so many lives we believe, and I think this would be one of them like we're talking about is like, I'm not valuable. I'm not worth anything. I'm not worth loving. Mm-hmm so one of the things I've tried to do, and I encourage parents listening right now, especially new parents to do this is like, I just.

I have this whole litany. I kind of like say to my daughter, I'm like, okay. And I won't go through all of it right now, but one of the things I tell her, I'm like, Lucy, like, you're so worth loving. Like you're so worth loving. Like you're so lovable and you're so worth loving. And my hope it gets me kind of emotional.

But my, my hope is that that just like seeps into her so deep, like down to her bones, like down to her core that. When she, you know, goes through life, like when she's no longer with us, when she's struggling as a teenager, like she will believe that at her core. And maybe there'll be struggles there. I don't doubt that, but I, but I hope that she has like such that foundation that she just goes through life with such peace, with such confidence, with such freedom and joy and all the things that I think so much of us, so many of us want.

So anyway, I wanted to mention that. Cause I think as, as parents, those of us listening, our parents, we can. Um, speak into those places. Almost preemptively kind of like this whole framework is meant to prevent trauma. We can speak into those places into the lives of our children. Yeah. So real quick story.

So I'm not, I don't know if I shared about it in the book, but a friend of mine when her son was 12 he's 18 now, but when he was 12, I was at one of his football games. He was in middle school. And I'll spare you the story to just kind of condense this, but he was playing football and I was at his game. He did something that was like really outstanding, not a football play.

It was a very human interaction with another person. It was like exceedingly, compassionate and good sportsmanship and just like. yeah, really kind of stand out. And so I text his mom who was sitting in the stands and I'm like, do you see him? And she's like, oh my gosh, I love that boy. You know? And so later it, I was at their house because I needed her to show me something on my computer, cuz she was more tech savvy than me.

And, um, he was heading into his room and she went, she was sitting on the arm of the couch, you know, I'm sitting on the couch and she's like leaning down over it showing me, oh, you need to do this and this. And, um, when he goes walking by, she went, oh, you know, just like to herself, like, oh yeah. I wanted to say something to him after, you know, he'd come home and got in a shower and eaten and all that.

So she, she calls him, you know, she's like Zach and he goes, yeah, mom. And she says, I like who you are. Hmm. I'm like, by the time she gets back to the couch, I'm like ugly crying. You know what I mean? and she's like, oh my gosh, are you okay? And I'm like, that's so beautiful. Like how many, how many people never hear?

I like who you are. Yeah. You know, and, and it's, and it's not to villainize saying good job to somebody. Sure. But that's so much the natural. And so then we can take away, like I have good news because I did a good job and like, that's. That's not it. And it's, it's not to say that's necessarily like inherently, mentally unhealthy or something.

Sure. But, but I think there really is something to focusing on applauding somebody for who they are over and above what they did. You know, the courage that it took to do this or that, or the dedication that it took to do this or that, or the integrity, or, you know, whatever, as opposed to the, the job, you know, make it about their being instead of their doing.

Right. So good. I love that. Yeah. And I think even being particular with your language is important there. And instead of just saying good job, like you said, saying, I like, you know how you are. I, I love how you did that. Or even when it comes to kids, I don't mean to make this such a parenting thing for anyone who's like younger, and who's not a parent, not even thinking about a parent, you can kind of put yourself on the opposite end of this.

And, and I can do that with myself too. And thinking like mm-hmm yeah. I would've loved to hear that. That, that would been awesome. Right. It. Thinking back to how, yeah, so many of us just crave that and, and we want that, but you know, we can say someone did a good job and then, but at the same time distinguish, and again, I've my wife and I are kind of working on this right now, but we wanna do that with our daughter.

We wanna applaud her for, um, her efforts. saying, you know, good job like you did really well. You're trying so hard. Like you've grown so much in this area. Mm-hmm but Mo more importantly, just like applaud her for just the person that she is. Right. And not, you know, even using different languages. Like she's really well behaved.

That's about her actions, but she's so good. That's about her right. Inherent value. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, it might seem kind of insignificant, but I think it does, especially after years and years of compounding, if we can speak that into the people in our lives. I think you can have a really, really big impact.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I see it on a yeah. Daily basis when I'm working with people, just the, you can tell. Their, their value of themself is formed based off of whether they, you know, whether it was for getting good grades in school or for being star athlete or being super helpful around the house or being the peacemaker or whatever, you know?

Sure. As opposed to that, there was this unshakeable value that they had, that that was unchanging. And that's, I think that that sense of security is the stuff that like yeah. That peace is made of. Yeah. So good. I love that. That sense of security, cuz so often we talk about insecurities, but the opposite would be yeah, just that deep sense of security.

Mm-hmm I know who I am. I know I'm good. I know I'm worth loving. I know that. Yeah. I have a lot to offer to, to people in my life. Not just for what I can do, but just who I am and so good love this. Can someone who's not religious benefit from this framework. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that was where I saw it first was, you know, I was, had been practicing trauma therapy for a very long number of years and started noticing this pattern and, but noticed it, and, you know, in terms of human dynamics, wait, these connection is what people bring up to me.

If they come for a week of intensive. Trauma therapy and bring up anything beautiful. Like it always has to do with connection, you know, to God's self for others. And so realized that first and then, oh yeah. It's about boundaries, valued, known, and openness. Like those were always the things. And so it was, I noticed it in, uh, human to human, like relationship first.

It was only like going back, working that backwards. Like wait, when we relate to ourselves that. Then that fosters like integrity and that sense of like human integration. Right. And then like, wait, this is how God relates to us too. So it was only going backwards that, that I found that that was like really, to me, like the higher authority.

that besides just Margaret saying these things are important, but like, wait, this is the way the Lord relates to us. So there must be something solid about this. . Yeah, like I said, you know, I noticed it in human relationships and it, so it, yeah, it gets us just on the, and you know, human relationships with others.

But again, you know, with ourselves as well, so good. Yeah. And no, I, I think that what you said, it's just, it's a human thing. So even if you know, you're not in a place right now where you feel like God could. Kind of in the equation, then it's just a human thing. It'll improve your relationships and it'll improve.

Mm-hmm , you know, the way you feel about yourself, which is so good. You mentioned the story before of the mom and the son, you know, who kind of learned this framework and he started using it. Oh yeah. Did you have any other stories about people who just really benefited from learning these principles and then starting to live them in their own.

Yeah. Yeah. A couple of people come to mind in particular people I've worked with in treatment and a couple of 'em have I continue to have contact with. and then being able to say how their in their living situations, the people they're relating to that are able to just let go of being so annoyed by things that used to annoy them like on a daily basis, uh, you know, feeling disregarded or not listened to, or overlooked or, you know, whatever it was in different community situations.

And so, because of recognizing what was going on and digging back into. Sense of, you know, if I'm, if I don't feel known out here by this other person and that's really grading on me then, oh, I do. I feel known by myself. Yeah. Okay. I, I am regarding myself as someone who's very good. And yet I still feel the need to, to experience that.

Okay. So I can drop anchor so to speak, like in God, like to get that filled up, if I'm feeling like it's some, you know, like an area that's really lacking and as this person's done that. This, you know, kind of more tendency to complain about that and really kind of let that get him down then. Like it's just not there anymore.

And so he just operates with like this degree of peace and. Man. We just keep coming back to that word. Don't we? But yeah. Yeah. Like it's like, it's almost like not even on the radar, you know, so much so. Hmm. So that's so that's cool. Yeah. Also seen it be, uh, become like the rules of engagement, you know, so to speak in relationships like, okay.

Somebody I worked with quite recently, this was a, a woman and she was able to re. Her own behavior is why she had responded the way she did in the situation to her husband. And then also like to take the same thing and apply it to him and go, oh, these are the things he needs as well. Wow. And then, um, so it didn't just lead to, this is how we need to relate, but it actually led her from a place of feeling hurt about something to actually a place of compassion for him.

And so I was. Wow. There's a lot. Once people kind of, once you see it, you can't not see it, you know, as the necessary ingredients. And when you realize, you know, I think there's that first level of, okay, this is what I need and okay. I can get how this applies to me and how this affects me. But when you go, uh, this is what this person needs to.

And then, then you really got it, you know? And then you're, it's not just about yourself and you really understand more of. Why things happen and you're able to not personalize things when hurts happen, you know, not internalize them as personal. so good. Love it. Yeah. And I'm sure you have a million other stories, which we don't have time for, but do I'm the book has more of those stories.

Yeah. There's I, I'm pretty sure there's good bit of stories in there. Kind of how, how the framework came to, to my mind in particular first and yeah. There's different things in there. And a few words, I'm just curious, how have you benefited from it? Cuz this is obviously something you discovered put language to, but yeah.

I'm curious how this has kind of played out in your own. Gosh. So I'm, I'm the kid from the time I was little, I was always why, why, why, why I was that kid, right? so it's helped me understand why to like so many things, like so many things. Well, there's this line in Batman begins. Okay. Which is a highly philosophical movie.

It's a fantastic, that's my favorite movie. That's my favorite. Oh really? Yeah. I Julia, like you even more natural you too. so, you know, he says like, we always fear what we don't understand. And I just think that's you remember the, the who's a, the drug, the mafia guy basically like, right that under Lord guy and yeah, I.

Relationships can just be so confounding, you know, because people can be so complex and we're all also different from each other, as much as we really have more in common. But when there can just be this kind of like swirl of like, why is a person doing this? Or why is this happen? Or why is this bothering me so much?

Or lots and lots and lots of whys. And so to me, it always goes back to, to two multiple choice questions. It's like, okay, is it a breakdown in connection to God's self or others? okay. And then the next question would be, is it about boundaries, value being known or openness? Boom. So like two questions and I'm able to get to the crux of what's going on in a situation and kind of like write the ship, you know, internally when I feel like I'm losing my piece or something.

And so, yeah, so it's, it's been very, it's been a blessing to me, so good. It almost makes me think of like an analogy of. You know, relating to another person is John Paul. The second would talk about like throwing a bridge. It's like we're walking across a bridge to an island that is another person. And it almost makes me think of this framework is the bridge.

Yeah. That, that bridge is the connection. And if you want the connection, you need these four. Pieces in place mm-hmm right, right. Yeah. What we're, it's what we're made for. Right. So if I go up, you know, if we're in the same place and we're having a conversation and, and I like cover your mouth and nose and then expect you to be able to, to be able to survive and be able to carry on the conversation, like that's.

That's silly. It's not gonna work. Yeah. You know, but we do the same thing on this invisible level in terms of, you know, de depriving each other of what, just what we need in order to relate healthily. Yeah. No, so good. I think that we focus so much on the physical and what's before our eyes and our world and our very materialistic world.

So it's. A good reminder, that there's so much more happening below the surface that can't be seen. So good. Uh, aside from buying the book, what's one thing that you would say someone listening right now who wants to live these principles out, what what's maybe one thing that they can do today to begin living out these principles.

I always think it starts with self-compassion when I'm working with somebody and, and they get to that point where they're able to, to really have compassion for themself in whatever painful things they've gone through. It's a game changer. You can't do that based on just, you know, you're not brimming over with warm, fuzzy feelings towards yourself.

Then, you know, if you have a relationship with the Lord, then that's. You can kind of dig into that, right? His compassion for yourself, you know, for you and for your suffering and stuff. And that's, you know, somebody had asked me once, like, self-compassion, isn't that the same as like narcissism? I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Self-compassion is imitation of Christ. Right? Because he has compassion for us, you know, and I really think being able to. To have that and kind of, even if it's a fake until you make it, you know, kind of at first. Sure. And, and just really growing in that, you know, it's the whole idea. You can't give what you don't have, you know, so you have compassion for yourself.

Really your compassion for others is gonna be on shaky ground. But when you're able to be understanding and accepting and compassionate towards yourself, then you're able to more readily give that instead of always looking to like, to get that need met by others. Oh, that makes so much sense. And I think that's something we, we all can grow in, which is such a good challenge, which I love kind of leaving it at that.

But I did wanna just ask you, I know you're starting a, a new ministry. Tell us about that. Tell us what you offer, if you would. Yeah. Yeah, I'm very excited about it. Um, it's just, I've learned so many principles over the last six, 16 years of doing intensive trauma therapy and so really wanna make those available.

I've started doing retreats for, I've done some for, you know, for priests, for deacons, deacons and their wives. And then, um, most recently I did two for, for lay people and just taking basically the same, because these are the principles. Where health and wholeness happen. They're also the same areas where pain happens.

And so taking the same things and making them available in a retreat format. So we can really kind of access those areas where woundedness happens and I've seen. I've seen amazing stuff happen in a very short amount of time that I just never really thought could happen that quickly. And that's really exciting for me because you know, the kind of work I've, done's been one week with the same person, like for the whole week.

And so to be able to reach more than one person, you know, in the retreat format, Through the course of the retreat has been, has been great. So, so retreats, um, father David, ticker, hoof, who's one of the Tor friers and I recorded an online retreat. That's up on my website doing workshops. We're actually like teaching people, the principles and some actual tools to be able to address.

Pain from wounds they've incurred in the past, but also to be able to relate to themselves and the people in their life, more healthily. So workshop, format, retreat format, online retreats kind of thing. Beautiful speaking. Yeah. Yeah. Excited. Yeah. I'm so excited to see how this grows and just the people it helps.

Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Did, uh, was there anything else you wanted say. No, no, no, just excited. Just excited. You know, it's been like a dream come true for, it's been a long, it's been a long haul and I love trauma therapy, but I don't know. There's something about rounding the corner as you get older and going wait, like even if I live to be a hundred, there's only a certain number of people I could reach.

So just wanting to be able to reach more people so good. And if someone wants to bring in to do a workshop or retreat, uh, speaking engagement or anything else that you offer, uh, how can they. Yeah. If they just contact me through my website, then we can get the ball rolling. So sacred heart healing, ministries.com, or email me at Margaret sacred heart healing, ministries dot.

Sounds great. We'll throw that in the show notes guys. So you have easy access to that, but Margaret, thank you so much. You're great. I, uh, always love, uh, talking with you and I'm excited to, to work with you more in the future. And, uh, yeah, I just wanna give you kind of the last word, any final wisdom you'd like to impart to everyone listening when it comes to connection, when it comes to trauma, when it comes to anything related to that, what encouragement would you give to, to everyone?

Wow. Yeah, I would just really say hope because, you know, I mean, I can talk about all this. Like it's, you know, like, like it's so natural to me, but man, if, gosh, as recently as 2003, which I guess is getting 19 years ago at this point, but in some ways it seems like only yesterday when I was. You know, suicidal for 18 months and hospitalized twice and on so many medications and nobody could figure out what was going on.

So, um, so I would just really say hope because I never thought the degree of, of peace and contentment, joy that I live with. Like I never thought was. Possible this side of heaven. so I just say, hang in there. There's more to life than surviving for sure.

Which of the four principles that Margaret taught us is lacking the most in your life. . And in addition to that, what's one thing that you can do today or this week to grow in that area. Give that some thought it doesn't have to be long. It can be a five or 10 minute exercise, but give it some thought, which of the four principles that Margaret taught is lacking the most in your life.

What's one thing you can do to grow in that area. If you enjoyed my conversation with Margaret, you wanna learn more about her connection framework? Just buy Margaret's book fearless. You can get that on Amazon, wherever you buy books, you can click on the link in the show notes as well. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restorministry.com slash 63.

Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole. And become the person that you were born to be.

#062: The Best of 2021: Restored Podcast Highlights

In this episode, you'll hear 7 short clips from the podcast in 2021.

This episode, and the podcast as a whole, will help you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents’ divorce, separation, or broken marriage, so you can feel whole again and thrive.

If you’re new to the podcast, this is the perfect way to sample our content and learn how it will help you. If you’re a veteran listener, this is the perfect episode to share with someone you know who needs to hear it.

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Featured Episodes

#039: The Anatomy of a Wound & How to Heal | Dr. Bob Schuchts, PhD

#037: Trauma: What It Is and How It Damages You | Margaret Vasquez

#058: Forgiveness: The Secret to Healing and Freedom | Fr. John Burns

#056: How Virtue Results in Happiness & Freedom | Dr. Andrew Swafford

#048: Fear Became Reality: I Am Just Like My Father | Bart Schuchts

#054: How to Stop Damaging Yourself with Your Words | Chris Stefanick

#044: Practical Tips for Becoming a Great Parent | Mike & Alicia Hernon

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation. Our broken marriage. So can Phil ho again, I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 62 and as a way to reflect on the gear, my team, and I wanted to share some of the best moments on the restored podcast.

So you're about to hear seven short clips from episodes published last year. If you're new to the podcast, this is the perfect way to sample our content, to see how we can help you. And if you're a veteran listener, I wanna just thank you. Thank you for listening for so long. I hope this has been so.

Helpful useful. And most importantly, practical for you. And I wanted to say to you, this is a perfect episode to share with someone that you know, who really needs to hear this content. The clips are not necessarily in a particular order when we were choosing which clips include. I honestly wanted to choose all of the episodes from last year because they're all really good, but we obviously had to narrow it down.

So we chose seven clips and basically we based it on popularity feedback from you guys and some episodes that just stood. To us, by the way, if after hearing the clip, you wanna listen to a particular episode in its entirety, but maybe you forgot the episode number. Just go to the show notes, to find it@restorministry.com slash 62.

I'll remind you of that link at the end. Our first episode is episode 39, the anatomy of a wound, and how to heal with Dr. Bob shoot. Now, Dr. Baba says psychologist, he's an author, and he spent really his professional life helping people to heal their wounds in this clip. He explains really the anatomy of a wound, how a.

Works.

I wanna switch gears. I wanna talk about the anatomy of a wound. You write about this, uh, in your book, be healed. You write that, you know, there's various pieces and parts to wound, and I think it's really helpful if we wanna heal to understand that. And so if you would please teach us about that, break that down for us.

Yeah. And, and let me put it in the relation to the, to the divorce, because it'll become much more alive in this way, but. And, and be healed and, and other material. I talk about three circles. There's like three levels of the heart or three layers of the heart. And on the inside is just the pain from the wound.

So it's, it's trauma. And as we're finding more and more about trauma, trauma stays in your body until it's released and it stays in your mind and it affects the way your brain's organized and it affects the way every cell of your body. And. You know, it, it affects our physical, emotional, spiritual health.

And typically trauma is too much for us to bear in the moment. That's why it takes us a while to work through trauma. But it's not that the trauma's in the past, it's, it's the trauma remains with us until it's released. And so it's released. Through the experience of, of releasing the pain or the anger or the rage or the powerlessness or the fear or whatever manifestation that has.

But, but our bodies and our minds and our souls pulled on to trauma. One of the ways we do that is through our beliefs. And that's the next band. If you will, the next circle in its the beliefs are of two, two types. It's the things that we believe about ourselves, which affect our identity. The way we see ourselves, that's the beliefs we have about other people and about God and about life, which are we call judgements.

You know, they, they're the ways that filter our perception of reality, both about ourselves and about other people. And so in, you know, in the case of, you know, my, my experience of a trauma of abandonment of my dad, And for you two, and there's a rejection in it. Those are different wounds. There's a powerlessness there's fear.

So what we call the seven deadly wounds, all have beliefs associated with them. And so, you know, one of the beliefs and these aren't just beliefs as at an intellectual level, there's deep, deeply held beliefs of the heart, which is I'm alone. I'm not loved. I can't trust anybody. And there's a hopelessness that things aren't gonna get any better.

All those get, if you will lodged into the heart at a deep level, even if our mind knows a different truth or understanding knows a different truth, those, those things kind of hold. We hold onto them and they hold onto us and we actually hold onto them. As a way of protecting against the trauma, believe it or not, even though they keep the trauma in place and keep us in the trauma.

They're, they're in some ways a barrier to that trauma. Hm. And then the judgements we have to other people, you know, it's like the judgements that I made towards my dad or about marriage are about God or about the church or about women, you know, or about drinking, you know, all those things that, that form perceptions that then play themselves out.

When you get involved in relationships. You know, a lot of those judgements have unforgiveness related to them. Uh, and so we work through a process of forgiveness, but also of really recognizing and releasing the judgements because they filter everything. They're like putting on glasses that color, everything that you see.

And then the final outside circle is what we call inner vows or resolutions of the will of ways we're gonna protect ourselves. So one of mine was, I will never divorce. Like my parents, because I'll never want to hurt my children. Like I was hurt and we were hurt or I'll never want to hurt my wife. Like my dad hurt my mother.

And you say, well, that's a really good vow, right? Yeah. Yeah. But it isn't, it was good when I made it in marriage with the holy spirit. And that's really what I promise and I'm gonna love my wife for better or for worse and sickness and in health. And that vow actually kept us together. But this inner vow wasn't even C.

It was made out of fear and judgment. And in that it, it creates this self-protection that actually almost brought me into a place that was a very thing that I feared. And it's, it's hard to describe that, but it's, it's like I was so in fear of hurting my wife and hurting my children, that I didn't deal with the pain, or even with the conflicts that came up, you know, I was afraid of being afraid of rejecting or afraid.

Being alone or, and so those vows actually led me to insulate and protect and to control, uh, because that's what we do out of fear is we tend to control things rather than trust mm-hmm . And so it creates this whole vicious cycle of destruction that you're not even aware of until you're face to face with it.

And that that really began my deeper healing process. 10 years into my marriage, 10 to 12 years into my marriage.

The key to healing is truly understanding your wounds, truly understanding your brokenness. And you can think of a doctor who can only treat a disease once he diagnoses that disease, once he understands it. And the same is true for emotional. Wounds, you can't heal without first diagnosing without first understanding your brokenness.

And so if you want more check out that episode, that was our most popular episode of the year with Dr. Bob Schutz again, though was episode 39. Next is episode 37. Trauma what it is and how it damages you with Margaret Vasquez. Margaret is a trauma therapist she's been in practice for over 15 years, truly an expert on trauma.

And she's helped so many people heal from trauma, especially people who thought. Healing wasn't even possible, maybe that's to you right now. And so I especially invite you to listen to this clip and then hopefully listen to the full episode with Margaret in this clip we discussed what trauma is and how it affects you.

I wanna start with a, a really basic question. What is trauma? What's the definition of trauma. the simplest definition of trauma that I like to use is any event that overwhelms a person's normal ability to cope. And so kind of, you can kind of imagine, like, in that definition itself kind of contains the idea that that varies from person to person, right.

Because what overwhelms one person might not overwhelm another and that kind of thing. So it's a real, it's real particular to the person. So I kind of like that, that like, understanding that because. If we understand that, then we don't compare and go, oh, well, this didn't bother that person, but it really bothers me.

And so what's wrong with me, you know? So it, it really all has to do with our perspective in the situation and our perception of it, and really our personal experience of it as to if we're traumatized by. By an event or not. Okay. No, that makes so much sense. So if you would, what's an example, I guess, of a traumatic event that you typically see.

I know, based on what you said, it varies for people, but what's something that's kind of a typical traumatic event. And I know some people talk about trauma in terms of like a big tea trauma versus a little tea trauma. What would some examples be to help people listening right now who may not have a handle on that?

Yeah, sure. Um, so one of, so kinda some of the obvious ones would be, um, abusive, any kind. You know, physical, emotional, spiritual, sexual, verbal, natural disaster or accidents can be traumatic as well. It, it, it's so funny because so often people say, well, couldn't it have been worse? You know what? I went through, like, couldn't have been worse and I'll say, well, it could always have been worse or we wouldn't be having this meeting.

Right. Mm-hmm cause we're still alive. You know? So I think it's, I think it's more, it makes more sense to compare it to what we're made for. Instead of could have been worse because if something bothered us, that's enough reason. You know, if it was traumatizing to us, if it overwhelmed my, my whoever's personal ability to cope, then that, and of itself is reason enough for it to be trauma.

I often say like in trainings, I call it trauma. When I'm with my brothers, we call it childhood, you know, so, and I guess it's just kind of make that distinction because people can tend to, to minimize and kind of beat themselves up for, for things bothering. Right. And kind of say, I should have been worth thick skinned or tougher, or I'm being wimpy or self pity or, you know, or whatever that these things are getting to me.

And it's really not a matter of that. So some of the things that people typically think of as trauma are like combat or violent crimes, but it, it can really run the gamut. One of the. Biggest ones that I work with with people is biggest. Meaning one of the ones that that's the most effect most affects people is bullying.

And, and that's really sad cuz that's something that's kind of rampant today. Definitely. Wow. And it's um, I, I think you were a spot on in saying that a lot of people think of trauma as just this huge event in my life. Like you said, a big natural disaster, something very dramatic that happened like going to war, you know, something like that, but it.

A great point that it can be something that maybe is less dramatic. It can be something. Uh, a lot of people may write off as not being very important or being something that they should be able to have a handle on. Yeah. Well, you know, I kind of, I kind of got scolded in this back in the early days of practice and I was working with a young veteran and he had been through a lot of verbal abuse from.

His father. And he said to me, worse for him than hand to hand combat was verbal abuse from, from his dad when he was a little boy and kind of intuitively like just in my gut, that made sense to me. But I just, you know, I just asked him to say more about that. And he said, well, when I, when I went in the army, they gave me a gun and said, people are gonna be shooting at you.

Go defend yourself. That wasn't how it was when I was seven years old, little boy sitting at the breakfast table, eating my breakfast, you know, and my person who was supposed to be protecting me was just verbally decimating me, you know, mm-hmm. And while that kind of really put it in perspective, you know,

that episode is so eye-opening, there's so much more in it about trauma, about how to heal from it. I highly highly recommend it again. That's episode 30. Episode 58 is next forgiveness. The secret to healing and freedom with father John Burns. And we all know that forgiveness is not easy, but is it worth it?

Father John Burns. Who's an expert on healing through forgiveness shares. Why forgiveness is good for you and why unforgiveness is bad for you. And this is not strictly a religious. Conversation, but rather a human one. And so listen with an open mind, especially if you don't believe in God,

unforgiveness is classically defined as a form of hatred. It, it falls under the category of hatred and, and hatred never leads to anything. Good. Hatred is a vice and it's destructive. It's consumptive. So. Even though we may not immediately think of the places where we have unforgiveness as places of hate.

Unforgiveness is a type of hatred. It's where we're, we're throttling our enemy and demanding repayment. And again, especially sometimes an exorbitant repayment or a type of repayment that can't be had. So it's a kind of a futile posture in which we're very often stuck. I think it was Corey 10. Boom, who said to forgive is to, to let a prisoner free and to discover that the prisoner's.

So, so it's liberating because we discover we're clenched up toward our enemies and self-defense posture, survival mechanism, mode, and forgiveness is like a letting go of that, that posture of, of tension and, and a bound up heart putting down the weapons, you know, like not being just like on guard for the next encounter so we can go to battle.

And that all leads us to a certain. Lightness of heart at ease of breathing. I mean like a, a lot of the people I've walked with in, in forgiveness will talk about being able to breathe again after they've forgiven and this living under a constriction prior to that, that they didn't even know about. So it's just liberating aside from increasing our excellence and making our, our lives more like Christ's life, because he's perfectly merciful.

It also frees us up from all kinds of bondage, emotional bondage that has, as you named even a neurological impact. The best way to think about healing is always integration or communion or union and wounding sin, uh, as division separation, fragmentation, our minds even are stories they're fragmented by these painful places is where we shut down or black things out or tried to skip over.

Healing reintegrates or reifies, reifies the, the, the narrative, our own story. Reifies our life into God's life. Reintegrates us into God. Reintegrates our own hearts ends the, the, the war within us thinking, you know, like St. Paul says, like, I. I do the things I do not want to do. And I do not do the things I want to do.

Healing just makes it easier to do the good things and avoid the evil things. And when we notice the other going on it's cuz there's some sin, not only our own, but that which has been inflicted upon us. So forgiveness is just this. I would argue essential and central pathway out of the, the death trap of our wounds.

We, we default to living there, but, but when we discover there's a way out, not only is it hopeful, but it's also totally liberating. And so it's gonna end the hatred. It's gonna end the binding force on our hearts. It's also gonna end all kinds of neurological complexity and physiological complexity.

That episode is. Notch. And if there's someone in your life that you need to forgive, give that a listen for most of us who come from broken families, there's so much hurt. There's so much need for forgiveness. And so if you want grab a pen and paper, open up your notes app and take some notes. There's so much to learn from father John, as he walks through the steps to forgive someone in that episode.

Again, that's episode 58. On deck is episode 56, how virtue results and happiness and freedom with Dr. Andrew Swafford virtue is a habitual disposition to do the good that's the definition that the Greeks use. And it looks like good habits typically, but there's much more than just that it truly does lead to happiness and to freedom, which Dr.

SWER touches on so much more. In this clip,

what exactly are do we mean when we say virtue? What is virtue ? Well, I I'll tell you what, where it really struck me as, as an athlete. And when I had my, my conversion kind of really came to a head in a Christian moral life class with DRS. And I walked in thinking it's about a bunch of rules and the Bible says this church is this can't do that.

And I walked in, I couldn't have been more wrong. It was about freedom, friendship, happys. Virtue. All of a sudden I could see, gosh, this is why you're not happy because you, my friend are made for more. So one of the things that's really deep in the, in the, the classical tradition, uh, in likeso Plato, but, but is just absorbed and enhanced by the Christian tradition is really to see it as an athletic metaphor.

Right? I mean, like any player can hit a lucky shot, but the good player is consistent. Is reliable, can do it on command and, and takes joy in doing it with greater and greater excellence. That's what virtue really is all about. It's not just like on the outside. What do I do? It's what kind of a person, a man role am I becoming?

And the great beauty of this when you really step in is. In each and every action, the choice really is not simply what do I do right here right now? It's who do I want to be? Because I'm actually modifying my very self, just like a picture. Like I joke with my students. I'm like, look so often we wanna say, Hey, I'm a good guy, deep down.

I mean, deep down. I'm a good guy. Despite what I did last weekend, I'm a good guy. It's like, Hey bro. It's like saying I'm a good pitcher. Deep down. I just never throw strikes. it's like, it doesn't work like that because each pitch you throw with poor mechanics makes it more likely you'll throw with poor mechanic.

The next time. And so it's so easy for so many of us to say, Hey, I'm gonna live it up now. And I will get real about life in five years. And in light of virtue, it's like, no, no, no, who, what you're doing now is directly related to you'll be in five years because you are on a journey of becoming you're becoming a certain kind of person.

And so at virtue, does it becomes a, you know, it's, there's different etymology. I mean, veer and Latin means a Manliness or a power, like virtue gives you the ability. To do the good to do it promptly, to do it even effortlessly and to do it with joy. In other words, the moral life is not just, let's always do the hard thing.

It's no become the kind of people who can do the right thing. With ease with joy promptly on demand and thereby attained the freedom to be who you really wanna be. We all wanna be the hero when it counts, but the only way you get there is by being a champion in the little things. And you think about movies like gladiator, right?

So remember when he, you know, he's captured and think about the difference to him as a seasoned soldier. Versus others who have never seen combat. And does that one scene with a guy's like tinkling nose lake. And that probably would be me in all honesty, but, but that's what virtue does. Me too. It makes you a seasoned, moral and spiritual athlete.

So you've been there. You've been tested, you have a pattern of overcoming these things. And so when the big test comes like. You're ready. Whereas you're not just a lucky player who, oops. He hits a lucky shot. Like, no, no, you're you you're Michael Jordan. You you're the one who's who wants the ball in that clutch moment because you've honed in on the skills to play the game of life with excellence.

It's about the art of living and living well. I love that. And I was just watching gladiator last night. That's hilarious. As soon as you, as soon as you were saying that I was like gladiator. Cause yeah, Maximus had spent years and years developing his skills as a warrior. And uh, it's not something that happens overnight.

And I think that's a good reminder. One of my teachers at Franciscan, I went to Franciscan university. One of my teachers, Dr. Um, Ashe. He would always talk about ease, promptness and join. I love that framework cuz you basically to everyone listening. You know, that you've acquired a virtue integrated into your character when you can do it with ease, prominence, and joy.

Right. And so really helpful to remember. Totally. I aerosols got a great line at the beginning of his ethics, where he says, um, the it's really fascinating. The pleasure or pain accompany in an action is an index of my. It's not that the pleasure pain is an index of the action being good or evil. It's not that, but like if I'm especially pained by doing a virtuous action, if it really hurts, that's a sign that I have not yet mastered that virtue.

It's sort of like, I mean, you know, for me, this is pretty smoking fast. I've done it a couple times around a six minute mile, but yeah. And let's say I do that. I throw up everywhere. Right. And it's been a long time since I've done that, but let's say I train for a series of months and then around the same mile, same pace.

It won't be as painful. When I'm in better shape, that's what the virtuous, life's all about.

Dr. Swafford is the man such good episode. I learned so much from him. And if you wanna know more, listen to episode 56 onto the next episode, which is episode 48, fear became reality. I'm just like my father. Bart shoots and Bart shoots is the brother of Dr. Bob shoots, who you heard at the beginning of the episode.

And his story is just amazing. He was at rock bottom. So. So alone and then his life radically changed. And you'll hear a little bit about that in this clip.

After, after a few relationships ended, I, I came to the point of going love doesn't exist. You know, love doesn't exist. And so I just lived for temple pleasure. Now I just walked away from everything I believed and valued and, and just gave up. I was so depressed and so discouraged. So disillusioned, I just gave up on love and it was in that season and I would just feel guilty and I was alone in my room and full of shame and, and self hatred.

All this stuff. And I was like, I gotta change. And you know, I just didn't know how, honestly, I didn't know how until my senior year is like everything caught up to me and then it was like, oh gosh, okay. How do I change? You know, that, that, that, that was that work for me, you know? And I, I think for every one of us to answer your question, I just think.

We each, we each have our own journeys, you know, and the biggest thing I would say is never give up, never give up because, because there's gonna be answers, there are answers and, and you just have to keep persevering. And I knew that. And so I just kept going, you know, I, I, I, I entertained taking my life so many times and I was like, no, I'm not a quitter.

I'm not gonna do that. I'm never gonna quit. I'm gonna persevere. And, you know, little did I know, you know, that I would, I would make my way through it, but I, but I. Amazing. It's hard to, to know that in the moment. Right. Cause everything can just feel hopeless, but you're in a much better spot now. So yeah. I am curious what, what changed?

Like what happened? How did you eventually find healing? It sounds like it was a long journey, but, but what changed? Yeah. Yeah, it was, you know, and you know, through my four, actually five years of college, I, uh, I tried everything, honestly. I tried. I mean, I got into positive mental attitude stuff and you know, and I'd put on this good, positive mental attitude.

And it worked, you know, I, I was able to succeed. I would, uh, go to, you know, psychology. I tried, I tried everything I could think of, you know, all relatively good things. I, I went to church a few times, you know, I, I, I would go and give it a shot and go to church. And that would last me about a week or a month, you know, and then I would go right back.

To my vomit, you know, by my vomit is, you know, after my freshman year, when I just gave up on love, it was just, it was just partying, womanizing, you know, just, just living, just totally lost from who I really was. And just, just totally just, I mean, a good guy externally, but just, just totally lost. So it was.

Senior year, you know, and I remember my dream was to play in the NFL. And so in the football field, I had some successes, ups and downs. Now it's my senior year and I'm starting on that team that I said eventually finished 11 and one number two in the country. And I'm on track for my dream. And I'm like, this is great.

And, uh, got a bunch of friends and success and you know, the team's great, everything looks wonderful. First play of our second game. I got injured and I missed four games. And in that season, I was confronted with my life and it had happened several times over the five years of my college journey, but this one just feels like the last straw.

And, um, I actually, I met this girl. And, uh, we're just talking at a, at a bar and, um, she we're hanging out for about 45 minutes, you know, or drinking and hanging out. And I had intentions, you know, and here we were, and, and she, uh, looks at me and she says, I hate you. I'm like, what, whoa, what are you talking about?

I mean, we just met, you know, and she says, not only do I hate you, my whole sorority hates. I was like, whoa, what do you mean? I mean, your sorority knows me. Yes. And then she mentions three girls. It is painful even to recall. I mean, this is probably 37 years ago, you know, and I it's still painful. And she says, you know, she mentions three girls.

She says, because of you, each one of them tried to take their own lives and went, oh my God, you're kidding me. And I thought to myself, whoa, this isn't a game, man. And then what hit me? What hit me in that? was, oh my gosh. I'm just like my father, you know, I made that vow. I will never be like my father. I will never hurt a woman the way my father hurt my mother.

And I'm worse. And my self hatred man was just like, whew, I just wanted to crawl under a rock and die. I didn't know what to say. I didn't know what to do. I just hated myself. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm a real jerk. And uh, and then this girl says to me, beautiful girl. She says to me, besides I'm a Virgin, I was like, what?

Tell me about this. I was intrigued. I was like, whoa. And I remembered back to when I was 18 years old. When I was in high school, I said to my buddies, when I get married, I wanna be a Virgin. And they, of course, you know, said that's a wonderful idea. No, they laughed at me. They called me names. Uh, I mean, gosh, I will never say that again.

Within a month of that, I had lost my virginity and then it, it, my story of the next six years, you know, uh, it caught up to me now and this girl says, I'm a Virgin. I'm like, oh my gosh. Wow. Is it possible? Like, is that even possible? This girl obviously chose this, you know, like, is this even possible? And it just, it opened my eyes to like, hope.

Like maybe my life could be different. Like maybe I can change. Maybe I really can change. Maybe I can marry someone. Maybe I can have a good marriage. Maybe I don't have to be like my father. Maybe, maybe things can be different. And, and that began a process.

One of the things I learned from Bart. No matter how bad things get, no matter how hopeless life feels, never give up, never give up. You're never out of the fight. And his story really proves that there is always hope, especially when things feel hopeless. If you wanna hear the rest of his story, listen to episode 40.

Episode 54 is next. How to stop damaging yourself with your words with Chris. And Chris is a very popular speaker and author. And in this clip, he talks about how the words we say to ourselves have a much bigger impact than you might think.

I think this is such a relevant topic for people, especially who come from broken families. And in the book you say that there's a war of words happening in your mind. The outcome of that war. Determines your destiny. That's a bold statement. What do you mean by that? Uh, the, uh, the devil's real victory in our life.

We, we think it's maybe a sin we committed or some, uh, wound we're suffering from, or, or, or something hard we've been through. No, I, I, the real victory is when we experience a, a, a difficulty or commit a sin and then label our. Based on that, because then we continue to live out of that identity for the rest of our lives.

You know, the, the way we speak to ourselves and the way we talk to ourselves and label ourselves shapes how we feel, which shapes how we act, which shapes how our entire life pans out. So really the, so many of the, the spiritual battles we face. So many of the personal battles with getting to the next level.

In relationships in career in happiness. So many of it comes back to when you dig deep enough, how you see. How you talk to yourself, it's that war, a fundamental war of words that determines really the outcome of your life. Mm-hmm uh, and, and a brother. We, we, we really, we really can't get it wrong. We can't keep getting it wrong, you know, and I'm so tired of seeing people get it wrong.

And you could tell there's times where I'm getting it. When people are walking through life, looking like they got the crap beat out of them when they look tired and heavy it's so often because we're beating ourselves up on the inside. I, I think this seems simple on the surface, Chris, but once you start talking about it and think about it, I think it's a little trickier than it seems because.

So often I think the lies that we tell ourselves become so second nature, they're just subconscious they're there. And so unless you really take time to go through your, I am book or the course or something similar where you're doing some deep reflection on this, it can just pass over your head. I know for myself, one of the things that I catch myself doing often just on a subconscious level again, It's calling myself an idiot.

Like, are you idiot? You know, I do. I make a mistake. I do something wrong. You're you idiot, you idiot. So I think there's a real need to dive into this. It can't just be something that oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I get what you're saying. I shouldn't be mean to myself. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's simple, but simple is not easy.

Right. In fact, it's very difficult to boil things down to the simple again and much of our lives. We're trying to get back to the simple within marriage. We're crying out loud. Oh, Nothing could look simpler. I love this person. She loves me. I wanna give my life to her. She wants to give her life to me.

the amazing thing. Is it actually, is that simple? But it's not easy to keep it, that, that simple and to work through all the crap that comes in the way of keeping it, that simple, that wants to destroy that, that, that beauty, that pure crystal line beauty , but that's, that's the, uh, the same journey as the, I am.

You know, there's, there is a simplicity that I, I want to introduce people to, because most people, they, they don't win this battle cuz they don't even know that they're in it. They don't show up for it. We're we're passive recipients of the things that go on in our heads.

On the surface. It might seem like the way that you see yourself, the way that you talk to yourself really isn't that big of a deal. But like Chris said, it literally dictates how your life. We'll turn out. If you wanna hear more from that episode, just listen to episode 50. Our final episode is episode 44 practical tips for becoming a great parent with Mike and Alicia.

Heran. If you wanna become a mom or a dad, one day, you need to know about Mike and Alicia Heran they're parents and parenting experts, and they give really great guidance on how to become a great mom. Or dad. And you're gonna hear a sample of that in this clip.

Uh, yeah, I guess the first thing is like, as a new parent, if you could go back in time to yourself as a new parent, uh, and give some advice, uh, yeah. What are a couple of things that you'd say the main points and I'm sure this might echo some of the things you said before before the first, the first thing that comes to mind is chill.

Uh, yeah, we're we're, as, as parents, we, we have to recognize we're playing a long game. It's it's not a sprint. It really is a long race and that there are gonna be cycles and seasons, uh, you know, early on you may get no sleep with a newborn, you know, and, and, and infant, uh, child, uh, or there's gonna be times when you have maybe one or two little kids that are just draining you and you're in the survival.

Mm-hmm they're seasons of life. And, um, and we need to have a longer perspective this isn't. You're not gonna stay in that zone forever. Um, Which is, is good and bad, right? Meaning sometimes you'll get through it quickly, but also, um, there are good moments which, you know, just to really appreciate and, and soak up those moments because, you know, we have two, uh, married children now and, um, you know, three others who are essentially out, uh, out of the house.

They do kids do grow up so fast. So, so one don't get stressed. I know it doesn't feel like it, but they do but, and, and I never believed anybody, uh, who told me that. No, um, but I would, I would say that, that, that don't sweat, the small stuff have a bigger, longer term perspective. Um, and really kind of embrace, uh, each of those moments cuz they, you, for that child, you only have, you know, you have a limited amount of time and it's, and it's a gift.

Right. Uh, and to really embrace that, I, I felt like I kind of felt like I was looking for the right answer to everything. Yeah. Like I wanted to just do it. Right. I wanted to find to be the perfect area. Yeah, exactly. I wanted to find like that perfect method. And I think a lot of people do that today.

Studies showed this. So this is what I should do. But the problem is that you can find studies that absolutely contradict each other about the way that you should raise an infant, as far as like sleep schedules and feeding, and you know, how you respond to them. And you can find studies that are all over the place.

But what you really need to do is just work with unity, with your spouse on what is the best for you as a couple, what is the best thing for your family? And don't worry, don't worry. doing it perfectly. It's okay. Like you were saying before, it's okay to make mistakes. You're going to make mistakes. You're gonna try something to get them to go to sleep and it's not gonna work.

And that's okay. That's totally fine. You can try something else or maybe you just need to try what you were doing a little bit longer. And so I feel like for me, like what I would tell myself, you know, if I was talking to myself as a new. so don't worry about getting it all right. And also just enjoy your children more.

That's part of the great thing about being a grandparent now is that you just enjoy our grandchildren and I have to say that even our younger children, um, like numbers eight, nine, and 10 . I feel like we still. Take more time to just enjoy them and them just play games, games, hang out and just like laugh at them and just realize that, you know what I mean?

Like just kind of relax a little bit and not worry about, well, I have to hurry up and teach them all these things, because this is the important point to teach this blah, blah. You know, it's okay. It's okay. Like it is it, your childhood does go fast, but it's also, you have time to teach them things little by little and a lot of things, times you are modeling.

You're modeling for them, the way that you live your life is more important than anything you say, or any discipline plan that you have or anything like that, loving them and modeling God's love for them. Honestly, I really do think is the most important thing. I think that's more important. Then being really strict and firm on certain rules or having the perfect rules of the perfect system.

Sorry, one, one thing that, that I, as long as you don't contradict me, yes. You, everything you said was perfect. There you go. Um, so if you learn this after 27 years, it's about priorities man battles wisely. Uh, no. So, so, but I, I think I, I Don. I think now I appreciate it more than I did back then. The importance of our marriage.

Yeah. Um, a as much as I loved my wife and we got, well, I think I took things for granted, meaning we, we were good. We were both good people. We were trying to deal with our own stuff. And we were collaborating in this great work of raising these kids. And I would probably look back and say, get a better habit of date nights.

Yeah. On a regular for sure. Uh, going out together. Um, I think that we early on, we were very good about that and then kids just make it more difficult, but I think they make everything more difficult, but I think we, I, I gave up or settled too quickly and then I accepted jobs. Um, that had me traveling a lot for work and I didn't compensate, you know, by saying, okay, now that I'm physically not home, how am I gonna maintain my emotional intimacy, uh, with my wife when we're physically not present?

Um, I, I think that looking back I've, you know, that would be, you know, some of the things that I, I think is strong, We're also seeing the fruit, you know, again, I think we have a great marriage, but it's like not taking any of that for granted and, and really developing early on good habits of yeah. Date nights and communication and so forth because we're seeing some, um, couples now come to us, struggling with even their own kids who now have left.

The faith are not following in their values. And one of the things that, that I, it looked a common theme, a common theme. Was, they had some major challenges in their marriages. And I look at that and I think that has a bigger influence than we may realize. Yeah. Uh, on our kids on like sleeping in separate bedrooms, you know, for years and years, that's, that's gonna affect your children, you know, and that's gonna affect the way that they see marriage and that they.

God and the faith and, and all of that. So, and, and anyway, it's important to work on your marriage and I'm sorry, I know you, I'm gonna just throw this out, just cuz I've seen a couple of people for adult children of divorce who, because they don't wanna repeat. What happened to them as a child, they often pour themselves out into their kids and they pour themselves into forming and loving their children that they actually unintentionally neglect their neglect, their marriage.

Yeah. And, um, and, and by doing that, you're actually. Undercutting the way that you're loving your kids and forming your kids, cuz the, the, um, the number one thing is if you wanna be a great parent, you need to be an even more amazing spouse. And I, I think we sometimes get things disordered. Um, in our parenting,

one of the struggles for those of us who come from broken families is that we believe that we maybe can't become a great mom or a great dad, and I get it. I've been there, but I'm here to tell you that you can't, you are capable of becoming a mom or a dad, a great mom or a great dad. And even if you didn't see that growing up, even if you didn't experience that, even if you didn't.

Receive that you can give to your kids, whether you have kids now, or sometime in the future, you can give to them what you didn't receive growing up and to do. So check out that episode, you can learn some tips and tactics on how to become the parent that maybe you wish you had, or that you want to be.

Again, that's episode 44. That's a wrap. And before we close out the show, if you're someone who recognizes the pain and the problems faced by teenagers and young adults who come from broken families and you want to help them, we wanna team up with you. A speaking engagement at your school at your church or conference could be exactly what those young people.

Need to hear. And our talks are geared toward helping young people from broken families to do a few things first, to navigate their pain and problems in healthy ways. Instead of unhealthy ways, they're also gonna learn simple tactics to heal their brokenness so they can feel whole again, they'll also learn tips on how to build healthy relationships, which can really be a struggle for people like us and so much more.

And some of our speaking engagements have been done. Organizations like Franciscan university of Steubenville Ave, Maria university focus the fellowship of Catholic university students, the archdiocese of Denver, the archdiocese of San Francisco and the diocese of San Diego. And as you can tell so far, our speaking engagements have been for Catholic audiences, but we don't just serve Catholics.

And so if you're interested in scheduling a live virtual talk, we'd love to talk with you. Just go to restored ministry.com/speaking again, restored ministry. singular.com/speaking. You can view the talks that we offer, and then you can request pricing and more info. And, uh, perhaps if you're ready, we could even get an event booked.

I'd love to serve you. We'd love to serve you again, go to ReSTOR ministry. Dot com slash speaking. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 62. Again, all the episode numbers from the clips that you heard are on that page. If you wanna listen to those whole episodes, thank you so much for listening.

If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's really struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, Share this podcast with them guys. We really appreciate your support for the podcast in our ministry this year. So many of you have shared the podcast with others or told people about restoring me just can't.

Thank you enough. Thank you so much for everything you've done to support us and to spread this work far and wide from our team at ReSTOR, we're just honored to serve you, and we wish you the best in this new year. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#061: Will I Always Feel Stuck? | Alexandra M

When Alexandra was in 7th grade, her parents divorced. Almost immediately, she went to counseling, which led her to believe that the effects of her parents’ divorce were in her past. She thought she was healed.

But in college, poor decisions and failed relationships showed her that perhaps it wasn’t resolved like she thought. She woke up on her birthday feeling sad and stuck, asking the question: Am I gonna be in this same spot for the rest of my life? 

In this episode, she shares the rest of her story and more:

• How working on herself has now led her to a really beautiful, healthy relationship

• How a memento from her past made her realize how much her parents’ divorce was still affecting her

• The answer to “Do you hate your parents?”

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Alexandra was in seventh grade when her parents divorced and almost immediately, her parents sent her to counseling for some time, which led her to believe that the effects from her parents' divorce were in her past. She thought she was fine. She thought she was healed, but in college, poor decisions that she made and failed relationships showed her that perhaps it wasn't resolved the way that she had thought.

And it all finally caught up to her. It hit her on her birthday. She woke up on her birthday and she felt really sad. She felt like she hit a dead end in life and those feelings. Caused her to ask some really tough questions. She asked, am I gonna be in the same spot for the rest of my life? What is it in my life?

That's preventing me from having a family of my own. And in this episode, she shares the rest of her story. She explains how working on herself has now led her to really beautiful, healthy relationship. She touches on how. Silence has given her a better understanding of her own brokenness and how it's even helped her heal.

She talks about how a memento from her past made her realize how much her parents' divorce was still affecting her. She answers the question. Do you hate your parents? And she also shares how restored has helped her in her healing journey. Really good conversation. So keep listening,

welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' support, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listen. This is episode 61. If you're someone who recognizes the pain and problems faced by teens and young adults who come from broken families and you wanna help them, we wanna team up with you.

A speaking engagement at your school at your church or conference could be exactly what those young people need. And our talks are geared toward helping young people from broken families to navigate their pain and problems in healthy ways to learn simple tactics that they can use to heal their brokenness so they can feel whole.

Learn how to build healthy relationships and so much more. And some of our clients, first speaking engagements have been FCAN university of Steubenville Ave, Maria university focused the fellowship of Catholic university students. We've also worked with the archdiocese of Denver, the archdiocese of San Francisco, the diocese of San Diego.

And we'd love to work with you. And as you can tell so far, our speaking engagements have been for Catholic audiences, but we don't just serve Catholics. And if you're interested in scheduling a live or virtual talk, we'd love to hear from you. Just go to restored ministry.com/speaking again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/speaking.

You can view the talks that we offer there. You can request pricing, and if you're ready, you can even book an event. So go ahead to restored ministry.com/speak. My guest today is Alexandra. Madrin originally from South Dakota. Alexandra has lived and worked in Denver for the past five years. After hearing about the ReSTOR podcast from her friend, Alexandra began working through the long term effects that her parents divorce left in her life.

Alexandria is enthusiastic about helping others to discover the freedom that comes through personal development and growth, and is an advocate of strong friendships with others who have experienced divorce and the practice of therapy. To heal and grow. She's found that there is hope and goodness after one's parent's divorce and it all comes down to a personal choice to begin again, find healing and trust that your life will be one containing lasting love.

I really loved this conversation with Alexandra. I'm so excited to share it with you,

Alex. It's great to have your friend. Thank you, Joey. It's good to be here. Yeah, we, what we met went earlier this year. It hasn't been too long. We haven't even known each other, I guess what a full year yet, but yeah. Yeah. You've um, you've been through a lot in this last year and we we'll talk about some of that.

I'm sure. But let's go back in time. Let's go back to when. Your parents separated divorce. Mm-hmm . How old were you first of all? When they separated divorce mm-hmm yeah, so they were never really, um, separated. Um, it was kind of a gradual lead up to just divorce and I was in the seventh grade. Okay. Yeah. So you were young mm-hmm

Okay. And that's, that's such a sensitive part of life. Do you remember how old you were at that age? That's like what? 11, 12? Yeah, I think it was like. A lot of it. I don't, I don't really remember, but yeah, in junior high, junior high. Yeah. So however old you are in junior high. Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure. I'm just thinking of like the international people we have.

And so that just such a young tender age mm-hmm what, what happened as much as you're comfortable sharing what happens? Yeah, for sure. So, um, growing up my parents, they fought a. And, and it kind of just got to the point gradually over time, where a lot of, you know, addiction, alcohol addiction, and just some struggles that they were having just got worse and worse and, um, some financial struggles and kind of just reached a tipping point.

I think it was in 2007 or eight where yeah, they're just. One parent had enough and, and filed for divorce. So that's, , that's kind of the gist of the story. There's nothing else really, to it, aside from there was just a, a gradual buildup of, of struggle. Totally. Mm-hmm and that's one of the things I think, and it's important to point that out because.

I think a, one of the misunderstandings that people have when I talk to them about resort and what we try to do mm-hmm is that they think maybe we're solely focused on the event of the divorce mm-hmm , but so often, and this is what I typically say. It's like, it's not like a, an atomic bomb randomly went off.

It's like, there's been problems in the marriage for years and years, usually. Mm-hmm and all that lead up is part of the trauma. It's part of the difficulty it's part of what really affects us. It's not just the event of the divorce, so that in and of itself, it's not worthy to say that that does affect us in a unique way.

Mm-hmm , but everything that led up to a. Is part of it as well. Mm-hmm so I think, yeah, it makes sense that mm-hmm it was gradual, I would say it's probably most people's experience, but how did you see that affect you? How did your parents broken marriage? Mm-hmm their struggles, their divorce. How did that affect you?

Yeah. Um, well, when it was going on, um, I did actually go to a therapist or a counselor at the time, so I was in junior high and then, you know, after they filed, I kept going just during. This time of all of this happening. Um, yeah. So at the time I thought, you know, this is really great. I'm getting the help I need.

And, and then I went off to college and I thought. I thought that I was good to go. I was like, yeah, I I've healed from this. I, you know, my parents aren't necessarily in the super great place, but at least things are kind of settled down now. Mm-hmm and this is the, the new normal, I thought phrase, but , it's the new normal.

Um, and so, yeah, I, I thought I was fine, but in college looking back and I didn't really realize this in the time, but in college I was making a lot of really, really dumb decision. Kind of, a lot of people would consider this pretty normal for college behavior, but, um, for the kind of person that I am and the per the people who raised me, it was not normal for me to act that way.

And so just a lot of partying and getting into things that, that I shouldn't have been getting into. And I look back now and I really, I really see that that was, that was a coping mechanism. I was really trying to, yeah, I'd run away from, from some pain. At that time. Totally. What did that look like day to day?

Like mm-hmm , you know, were you aware that you were coping in unhealthy ways or was it kind of just like, this is my life and mm-hmm then you later realized. Maybe this isn't the best way to live? Absolutely not. Yeah. I would fill my day from like three jobs in college and I would work. Wow. Like one job from at the student center from like 10 to two, so I could study and then I would get up and I'd be the barista at the student center from eight to 11, and then I'd go to class and then I'd teach wow.

Ballet from three to five. And then you. Sleep wow. In, in between. So I was really, yeah. Outside of just making like bad decisions, as far as like drinking, uh, excessively, I was also really just every minute of my day I was doing something mm-hmm, trying to find a place kind of trying to find like, okay, what's, you know, what's my purpose?

Where, where am I supposed to be? And at what time am I supposed to be there? Just kind of every. Filling it up. Were you afraid of solitude? Were you afraid of kind of facing yourself in mm-hmm a lack of busyness, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. And I still struggle with that. I really, yeah. I just, I I'm like such a productive person, but it's, it is hard to just sit and be.

And I think a lot of that is because I know when I'm sitting, um, in silence or yeah, I'm a Christian. So sitting in prayer. Yeah. I tend to navigate towards, you know, the areas of my life, where it's like, okay, I'm struggling in this. So a lot of that navigation goes towards yeah. My parents divorce. So of course it makes sense to just fill that time.

So you don't have to think about it. It's easier. I know, gosh, for so many years I just saw it an escape and I'm still tempted to that. Right. It's like, It's so much easier at times, just to drown out your pain or your problems and not face them and not deal with them. And so totally relate to that. I, uh, speaking of solitude, it, it can be scary.

It's like the scariest person to face, I think is yourself. Mm-hmm . And I remember, uh, at one point I was driving in the mountains alone. So for everyone listening, we Alexandra and I both live in Denver, Colorado. And so we have the beautiful Rocky mountains out here and. You know, I know you love the mountains.

Mm-hmm, , we've been skiing together. We, um, yeah, I I've been at times taking drives and mountains by myself. Um, and, uh, I remember I was meeting up with some friends and I was getting late at night and there was just like, no one in the car with me and I was alone and I was like, so uncomfortable. mm-hmm this is, this is like a few years back.

I'm like, this is like horrible. Like I really need to, I felt that loneliness that I really hadn't felt for a long time. Partly because like, you know, I've filled my life with friends and with my own marriage and now with Lucy, but, uh, yeah, I think it is good to go there even though it is scary. Mm-hmm yeah.

And, and the silence is when you really, you really start to understand what what's missing. I think, uh, for me, when I would go into that silence, I, I would go into kind of the memories too at times, so totally. Never never fun, but yeah, there's, there's work to be done. And, and I think any, yeah, anybody who's gone through a, a divorce or a parent's divorce, I think they can attest to that.

That, um, there's always gonna be work to be done. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. It's not like. yeah, you reach the, the summit and then you check it off your list and never deal with that. Again, mm-hmm, one thing a that struck me when I met you just getting to know you and like what you were up to in life and like your work situation is like, I did, I could tell you were a hard worker mm-hmm like, I could tell you were like structured, have a structured life you, you know, get after it.

And I admire that. And even hearing that about you in college, like three jobs. So you mentioned how it was kind of a way to fill the time and to kinda keep you busy. If you were comfortable talking about this was the financial side, a struggle too, cuz you mentioned. That that was for your parents. Mm-hmm and I know for a lot of us, um, that was the reality.

Like I know my parents like handled money very, very poorly mm-hmm and, um, so my siblings and I have just, you know, I, I don't like pay my parents for it or anything. I think there's been a lot of good lessons in just trying to like, find our own way. Yeah. It's a lot of us like, deal with that. So I'm just curious, was that part of the motivation to work so many jobs or did you just wanna get out and do stuff?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was, I was entering college at a time where both of my parents couldn't really help a ton with, you know, they couldn't provide full tuition. so sure had to figure that out as some, some capacity, so definitely needed to work the capacity of which I was working in college. Was not necessary.

And, you know, the partying lifestyle obviously comes with expensives. So, okay. A lot of that had to do with, you know, okay. I wanna pay to go to this sorority event or mm-hmm, go to Sioux falls and South Dakota where I, I went to college and yeah. And, and get a new dress for this event or whatever it was.

There was a lot of, um, A lot of unnecessary kind of spending too, so. Totally. Yeah. No. And that makes sense. And one of the things, um, That John Eldridge writes about. He, you know, he's so insightful, John Eldridge. I dunno if you've read anything about him, but he, uh, he wrote wild at heart. Mm. And he talks about it a lot about men mm-hmm

And one of the things he says in his one book fathered by God, is that a lot of times, and I don't know if this is true in your case too, but this is what I've observed in people I've known who come from broken families. Mm-hmm a lot of times guys, especially will. Grow up, get a real job, you know, start making real money.

Mm-hmm and then they start buying themselves like toys mm-hmm and his insight is that part of the reason they do that often is because they weren't like delighted in as kids mm-hmm like they didn't receive the love, the affirmation, the attention that they craved. And so when they get into a position where they can afford it, they start kind of doting themselves, like.

You know, putting, bringing all these gadgets in their life or cars or doing expensive trips and things like that, which in and of themselves, like not bad things mm-hmm , but, um, but there there's a deeper need there and that, that was his insight. So is that something that you can relate to? I'm curious on the feminine side of it, cuz it's different for a guy I think.

Yeah. I don't, I don't think so. A lot of just, yeah, working in college and, and getting nice things was maybe to fill void, but, but mostly just to fill the time. Totally. Yeah. Makes a ton of sense. Dating relationships. Mm-hmm so I know this is like one of the main themes for your story. Yeah. Is there, were there were struggles there?

Yeah. Talk to me about that. How has, you know, everything you went through with your family affected your dating relationships? Mm-hmm yeah, I would say it is the main theme. It's kind of what's brought me to this podcast. I would say. So in college was in some relationships, just super unhealthy, again, coping pain, all that stuff.

And then when I got outta college, I didn't date for a while, but Billy didn't know like what healthy was. Yeah. What , what is healthy? Um, I had, I had friends and family and healthy relationships, but when it came to mine, I was just doing something wrong. So I got out of our relationship late last year and woke.

It was kind of like two weeks before, uh, my birthday or three weeks before my birthday. And I get O I get up in, in the morning of my birthday and I'm just, I'm so sad. And I'm like, why am I so sad? it's my birthday. And I, I just started thinking and I'm like, I don't, I don't know if I'm ever gonna not be in the place that I am.

On my birthday, if I don't kind of seriously change something in my life, um, I really desired a family, but, but not to the extent of like changing my relationships to get there. And that was kind of the, the turning point for me is, is that birthday. And that week of kind of like unpacking what is. In my life, that's preventing me from, from eventually having a family of my own and, um, I would just date not with serious intention.

A lot of 'em went the same, just not towards marriage. And that's something that I desired, but I was like, why can't I get there? Yeah. So. I, I just took a step back and I was like, okay, something's missing here. And then a couple months later, just some events happened. And I found a picture of, of my family when I was a really little girl.

And that, that picture just caused me to, just to stop. I just broke down and I. I just sobbed. And I was like, this is not really a normal reaction of finding a picture of, of your family together. Right. And I started, yeah. I started thinking like, maybe there's something that I thought had been, uh, completed in therapy when I was in the seventh grade.

That is maybe still lingering . Yeah. And decided. Yeah, just with a lot of conversations with my friends that maybe I should go back to therapy and start thinking about relationships and, and what, what I could work on to eventually someday have a family of my own. Yeah. Wow. And that that's a big step. We were talking before we were recording.

We were having dinner actually. And, um, you were saying how. Yeah, that, that takes a lot of courage to just kind of like take those first steps down that path. And, but you did it and you're on the path. Mm-hmm and that's, I think that's such a victory in and of itself because there's so many people who just aren't, you know, they, they feel stuck, like you said, mm-hmm they feel the sadness.

They struggle with, you know, excessive drinking and they struggle with other unhealthy ways of coping mm-hmm , but they never take those steps to kind of, to overcome that, to heal what's at the root of all that. And so, yeah, I just admired you for getting after it and walking down that path, but it took some time, right.

Mm-hmm to get there. Yeah. And I think it's something that a lot of people need to come, uh, to terms with on their own, where they kind of get to this place where they're like, okay, I'm at a dead end again and again, and again, with the things that are important to me in my life. And so, yeah, it takes a ton of courage and I.

I really encourage anyone who's there who maybe today is your birthday or, you know, your birthday's next week and you're waking up and you're saying, gosh, am I gonna be this? Am I gonna be in this same spot for the rest of my life? Because I, I can't deal with, you know, what happened when I was younger.

You can, you can. And, and I know cuz I did and you're, you're so strong. It's so. But nothing is gonna change unless you deal with it. Dang. Wow. sorry. You're good at this. No, that that's me to drop a, a truth, Bob, but there it is. There it is. Wow. No, that's so, and that's so hopeful too, because I think those of us who've been in those really dark places.

I think sometimes we can forget what it's like to be there. Mm-hmm and there there's people listening right now who are right there right now. and so everything you just said, it's like, yes, like that's so, so hopeful. Like you can't, you don't need to have that life. You can have something better, which is just mm-hmm.

so beautiful. Switching gears a little. So often for those of us who come from broken families, there were certain things that we needed from our parents that they never provided for us often, not through malicious intent. Mm-hmm, , it's just, they were so busy with their own pain in their own lives that they just didn't give us what we needed.

Mm-hmm what did you need from your parents that, you know, they weren't aware of or didn't provide for you? Yeah, I'd say probably emotional stability, something that. It's really hard to come to terms with is that, you know, when parents are getting divorced, it's a very unnatural thing. So, uh, no one usually gets married with the intention of divorcing.

And so when. when parents get divorced, um, their emotions, they're dealing with those, you know, all over the place. And yeah, a kid at, at any age really needs, um, yeah, emotional stability from a parent. And so really throughout my life, I've had to learn how to set boundaries with, you know, emotional relationships.

I think I, I have a, a deep mercy for my parents because I know that. I know that they, they probably did the best they could, but as a, as a adult, now I look back and I'm like, yeah, I, I, wasn't given the, the emotional maturity that a parent needed to provide. Totally. And I totally can relate to that too. I, I think a lot of our parents were dealt a bad hand, not to say our generation is perfect, cuz we're not, we have own flaws for.

And not to say that we'll all be perfect parents. We won't we'll screw our kids off in some ways. I'm sure. But I, I think there is like, at least we have something to look back on and see, like our parents grew up through pretty crazy times. Mm-hmm like what? Sixties? Seventies, eighties, like all that. Yeah.

I think now we're starting to look back and unpack like, yeah. The way that a lot of us were parented, just wasn't adequate mm-hmm and you know, like you said, a lot of us say they did the best they can, but objectively we can look back and say it could have been better. Mm-hmm and, um, and that's not, you know, us saying that we hate our parents.

In fact, I wanna ask you, do you hate your parents? Absolutely not. Okay. , that's, that's one of misconception that I think a lot of people have about resort is that they're like, oh, you're trying to get people to hate their parents. And like, no, no, we actually wanna like kill those relationships. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. And I think there's a, there's a definite reality that your family can be good again. Hmm. There's a grief that, you know, anybody whose parents are divorced, uh, lives with for the rest of their life. it is it's. yeah, it's sad. And with that sadness is yeah. Grief. And, but the, but on the other, on the other end, there is a light that, that people can change and heal.

And I think that parents can love their kids better throughout their lives, you know? So totally. I, yeah. I love, I love both my parents dearly we have great relationships with both of them, so that's beautiful. Definitely. Yeah. And, you know, I'm sure there's struggles, but we all have those struggles. And I know, yeah.

Lately my parents have been more cordial to each other. Mm-hmm the, the divorce was tough. It was, they were just, it was a three year process and a long divorce mm-hmm is two years mm-hmm and it was like three. So it was just so ugly and messy and full of drama. Thankfully, a lot of that has kind of died out.

There's still struggles though, but, but I could say too, Typically get along with my parents much, much better now mm-hmm than I did in the past. And that's one of the things for any parents listening right now. Uh, we love you guys. We're just often dealing with our own stuff and, uh, we might not totally know how to handle every situation.

It can, it can be hard and. Uh, there can be situations that almost feel impossible to us. It's like, I don't know what to do in this situation. It's, mm-hmm, like a lose, lose situation. I know I've dealt with that, but to any parents watch are listening, you play such a major role in helping us deal with the trauma, with the brokenness in our own lives.

You might not be able to be the one that's there for us through all of it. Um, we might need that space. At least the research I've seen has said that the parents play a huge role in helping us to, to navigate life, um, after the fact. And so, uh, I, I think it, it's good for you as a parent to understand that you are needed, you are important, both parents, mom, and dad.

And so, um, you have an important role to play. So with that, let's get into. coping and healing. So you gave an example of kind of unhealthy coping mm-hmm . How about on the flip side, what were some things that you did maybe two or three things that helped you cope in healthy ways and then ultimately helped you begin to heal as well?

Mm-hmm so the first decision that I had to make to get there was just to do it to acknowledge. Yeah, this is gonna be hard. I might turn into an unpleasant person while this is happening. so, yeah. Did you warn all your friends? And I, I did. I talked to my roommates and I was like, Hey, listen, I'm thinking about, you know, going to therapy to revisit some of the childhood things that happened in my life.

So they knew, and they were super supportive, but. Good for you, by the way, most people wouldn't do that. I was kind of joking, but oh, wow. That's amazing though. That's really good. Yeah. I was like, I better warn them if I'm like gonna be crabby. I don't know. So um, yeah, so I, I actually that's the first thing is I, I sought out a therapist and found somebody I really liked and she's been wonderful and that has been unbelievably difficult, but so worth it.

Um, so if you're even. Considering it, I hope you do go forward with it. Aside from therapy. Um, really finding, I think it's important to have friends who have been in the same situation for me personally, it can be very difficult to have a friend group of. Of friends with perfect families. And I know not every family's perfect, but there's some that are pretty darn close yeah.

Especially comparatively, like, yeah, I know I've looked at my family and then friends of mine, like mm-hmm you have a really good family. Yeah. And I, I'm definitely not advising you to go out and, you know, find a bunch of. Of friends only from divorced parents, but it is helpful to have, um, some friends that really do understand because they've been there.

I have a couple friends that I call upon, um, and that call upon me and we, we really support each other around difficult times. Like the holidays, if there's weddings or whatever, the, the family events are coming up. It's really helpful to have people who understand because they know themselves because they've gone through it.

Totally. Yeah. That's been really helpful for me too. Yeah. Cause a lot of times I think we feel like freaks. We feel alone. We feel like, why am I so bothered by this? Everyone else seems to be fine. Everyone else says it's for the best. Everyone else says my parents, you know, your parents are happier. You should be happy to mm-hmm.

But then we feel this hurt. We feel this emptiness, we feel stuck in life and we know like, no, something's not right. So if you have people who say mm-hmm, actually, that's an appropriate response for what you've been through. You're not weird at all. Mm-hmm , that's suffering. Mm-hmm yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and kind of going off of what you just said, there are scars left behind.

So even if it is the, you know, the best or whatever, the situation or whatever anybody's telling you about your parents' divorce, um, there's still a scar left on everyone that was involved and that scar does not go away. And sometimes that scar is more visible around certain times of the year or certain events like, uh, weddings or funerals, whatever it is that brings up those family gatherings, those scars are, are out to, and everyone can see them.

And so, yeah. Yeah. Something to remember. Yeah. It can be hard to deal with. It's like, you know, you fall and cut yourself. Mm-hmm , it's like you can heal the wound. Or, you know, men, the moon a bit mm-hmm but the scar's still gonna be there. Mm-hmm , it's a good reminder. Aside from therapy and friends. Was there anything else that was helpful?

Yeah, I mean, uh, I think as hard as it is spending a lot of time alone, as much as you can, to just really be honest with yourself. So if you see, you know, in different areas of your life, where you are, you're backing away. you're avoiding talking to somebody and your family, or you are you're struggling in relationships, really take, I would recommend.

And this is what I did is I just really took a step back, spent a lot of time alone, reflecting and even outside of therapy. So you do a lot of reflecting in therapy, but a lot of time, you know, just taking some time to be alone and work on yourself. Yeah. It's. Yeah. It's the hardest work you'll ever do, right?

Mm-hmm yeah. Coming from someone who you work hard, right? Yeah. I know you, gosh, you put so much time for studying for the LSAT and now looking at law school and just the jobs mm-hmm , you know, the jobs you've done the job you're in right now. So it is hard work mm-hmm and I'd much rather do a lot of other things than that.

We're always a work in progress. Mm-hmm I know you would say you're working on it still, but mm-hmm, , how's life different for you. How have you seen yourself grow and improve even in, you know, I know you've said this is relatively recent for you. Mm-hmm but yeah, you, you, I could tell you've grown. How have, have you grown?

Yeah. Um, there's such a freedom and, and first acknowledging like, Hey, I need help. I'm, I'm struggling with these, these, um, these memories and, and this grief, um, I think I've changed specifically because I've, I've really been able to learn how to love better around me. And, and I think healing really comes from.

accepting love from others as well. So, um, I'm in a, in a relationship right now and it's, it's going really well. Yeah. Um, and I think that, um, I've learned a lot through this relationship about, yeah. Just how to love someone better. And that's, that's a huge for me, a huge win it's. It's a. , it's a really hard thing to do.

Um, you have to dig with great courage, look at your life honestly, and say, I'm struggling. I need change. But when you do that, the fruit that comes after that is so, so good. You said you were able to learn to love better mm-hmm but that didn't just happen right away. Mm-hmm was there some sort of progression where you, I know you, you know, woke up and saw, man, I have all these failed relationships.

Like they're not going where I want them to go, which ultimately is to marriage and family life. Mm-hmm which, by the way, I know, you know, this mm-hmm that's normal for people like us. We typically have more failed relationships. Mm-hmm which sucks. but it's just part of the deal. Mm. . Yeah. I mean, I'm guessing your friendships played a role in that, but was there anything else in terms of like learning to love mm-hmm that helped you turn a corner or get to a point where you can love the way that you're loving right now in your mm-hmm dating relationship.

Mm-hmm yeah. Yeah. I think, um, there's this, this analogy is like the, um, Adam and Eve. Analogy that I've heard, uh, from a couple different people, but it's basically, um, when you think of the sin that, that you've committed, it really has all comes down to the fact that she was grasping for that apple. Um, it wasn't like freely given to her, you know, it wasn't an act.

It wasn't, it wasn't a gift. Um, it was, it was grasping for something there. And I think when. Adult children are divorced kind of step back and they're like, okay, I'm gonna receive this gift of like, of healing, but also I'm gonna stop grasping for what I think a relationship is. And I'm just gonna pause.

And work on myself until I'm given that gift and that healing, I think that's a really good place to be. So for anybody out there, that's maybe either struggling in relationships or is wondering, like how do I change? Just pause and, um, really work on yourself first mm-hmm because I know I was really grasping for just for things that were not there, which is not loving someone at all.

So when you stop grasping, you're really able to be free to love. that's beautiful. That takes a lot of patience and. courage, like you said before to just kind of be still and not grasp. I think American culture especially is all about grasping mm-hmm right. Where the ambitious culture in a lot of ways, not that others aren't, but in a lot of ways, that's like very signature of American culture.

So that is, that is such a different approach and that's hard, but that's beautiful. They've learned that, uh, I love the point you made about working on your. I think a lot of times, all of us, almost all of us, we really, we want really beautiful relationships. We want happiness. We want love, we want all those good things, but we don't really make the connection that you just made, that your personal condition typically is reflected in your relationships.

Mm-hmm so if you're a mess, your relationships are probably gonna be a mess too. . And so taking that time to begin working on yourselves and mm-hmm or on yourself, and like you said, it's always a work in progress. Mm-hmm , but it is something you can make substantial progress on. And then when you enter in a, a relationship, you're at a point where you can continue that work in the relationship mm-hmm and that's something that you alluded to too.

It sounds like the relationship you're in right now has been healing in itself, which is really beautiful. Did you wanna talk about that at all? Yeah, for sure. so yeah, I was actually, uh, the first person I brought home. Since, you know, early college. So it's kind of a big deal. Yeah. It is a bigger deal. I think for adult children of divorce or, or teens or young adult children of divorce to bring significant others home, because it can be a very messy thing to see.

So it's very vulnerable to put somebody in that atmosphere of, yeah. Hey, this is our family, even though our family's. If somebody's not really privy to that, it can be, yeah, it can be scary. So a very healing experience in my relationship has, yeah, just been able to, to, uh, bring them home and, and reveal reveal our family.

Um, and have that completely accepted. Wow. But there's obviously there's conversations that have to happen before that happens. So working on myself has led to me, realizing those conversations have to happen before, you know, you jump right into, Hey, come. Come meet my family. So it's like a preliminary work to the preliminary work.

Okay. To the event. Nice. Okay. So lots of steps, but yes, it's good. You gotta go through it if it's okay. What were some of those conversations that you had that maybe can give people listening right now who, um, are a little bit behind you on the path? Uh, and a guide to maybe talk about this, talk about that before you get to that point, what were some of those conversations?

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So , for me, it, it looked a lot like sitting them down and kind of explaining to the level of comfort that you feel mm-hmm , there are some things about my family that I would like you to know before you meet them. Mm-hmm like literally those words. Exactly. I love my family. We are a close family, or we are not a close family.

Whatever your situation is. here's some context as to what it might be like to prepare you for this visit. I, I feel this way around my family and I may act this way around my family because of these reasons. Hmm. At the end of the day, I love my family, but we are all still a work in progress because of what happened.

Yeah. Okay. I'm sure you had other conversations too, but that like that alone is, yeah, that's powerful. It's really helpful. How did he react to that? Not to put him on the spot yeah, no, he was super understanding and honestly, very much more understanding that I thought so for a while it was kind of like, does he come, does he.

And at the end of the day, it was like, this is, you know, when you're seriously dating someone, it's, it's a reality that they're gonna have to meet your family eventually. Yeah. If you're gonna move forward and grow. So it was, for me, at least it was kind of like this has to happen eventually. Mm-hmm and I've been doing the work.

So now is the time I love that. courage. Yeah. Dig deep, you know? awesome. You're getting me pumped up. good. Um, how did it go at home? Great. So much better than I ever thought. Honestly, complete piece. It was a really great situation. So I think it's. It's also a great conversation to have, you know, and maybe think about first, um, before you have that conversation of, okay.

What is, what's a good timeline to bring someone home or what what's too long. mm-hmm yeah. How much time should you spend with certain people? You know, people who maybe. Um, are very triggering or, or cause you a lot of anxiety, maybe don't spend the whole time with them. So just kind of common sense like that.

Yeah. But think about those things ahead of time. And I I'd say it's never a bad idea to just prepare as much as you can. Mm-hmm . But in my experience, it went a lot better than I thought it would. So kind of going back to the, you know, have courage and be brave because it could go really bad, but it could also, it could go really well.

And if, and if that person. is, is the person. And they're gonna understand, and they'll love you through it. Mm-hmm and one of the things you said before struck me just how you kind of warned him, that you may be a little bit of a different person. I dunno if you put it in those words. Exactly. But I know for me, a lot of times, like I kind of go back to my old self when I'm with my family.

I think that's a pretty typical experience. Mm-hmm you go home you're with your siblings. You're with your mom, your dad, whatever the scenario is. And. yeah, you kind of revert to maybe an older version of yourself. So I think it is wise to warn someone be like, I might be a little bit more this way. Mm-hmm than you might know me.

Yeah. That that's really, really good. And you mentioned peace mm-hmm this relationship you told me is, but there's been a lot of peace. Mm-hmm I'm sure there's been. Struggles and things along the way, but for the most part am I, did I hear you right? That there's, there's been a lot of peace, a lot of peace.

Yes. That's beautiful. Contrast that with the past, like, what were your, what did you feel in your relationships in the past? Mm-hmm , you know, I think it's, it's difficult to nothing in life is gonna be peaceful if you haven't kind of done the work for that piece to arrive. So yeah. Had I maybe worked on myself and, and these issues that I was having personally.

Before meeting past boyfriends, maybe they have would've gotten differently. But I think the lack of peace was really, honestly, I think it was a lot on me. Hmm. Because I didn't really know what I wanted because I didn't really believe in marriage I didn't really think that. And that's maybe dramatic, but I didn't believe in marriage for me.

I should say didn't really know what, what could that look like in my life? what, what would it look like to really share my days with someone and have that work out? What decisions would I have to make to, to have that happen? So all of those questions weren't being asked, so it was more of a hobby than a vocation.

Dang. There's a quote. that's beautiful. Yeah. And I think a lot of people approach dating like that, where it's kind of like a, sport's like recreation. It's like something to, like you said, a hobby, something to do. Yeah. As opposed to like a means to an end, which would be figuring out if you're meant to spend your life with this person.

Mm-hmm . Yeah. So that's beautiful. You, you made that switch, uh, you didn't believe that marriage could work for you. Why was that? Why not? You? Yeah, I, I thought that honestly, I just wasn't ready and I didn't think I was ever gonna be ready. I had lost a lot of faith because I had had dated a lot. Mm-hmm and again, if I would've just started doing the work earlier, I wouldn't have dated so much probably, but I don't know.

Maybe not fair. You never know. You could always go back, but you just never know you are where you're supposed to be. I. yeah, that, that makes a ton of sense. Yeah. And you were kind of worn out and mm-hmm, kind of ready to throw the towel in and was part of it too. Were you just skeptical about the idea of marriage lasting cuz you saw your parents fall apart?

Yeah. I had been in weddings for, for friends and those weddings. I totally believed that they and still do believe. That they will work and that their strong marriages, there was just something, I think when it came down to me that because growing up didn't have the example in the home of what a marriage is, is supposed to be.

Like, I never, I wasn't constantly thinking of like on my wedding day or when I have kids. Or my marriage, because when you're not around that all, all the time, you don't think about it for yourself, you know? Yeah. Kind of think of it as like, okay. The senior class, um, in high school, everyone's talking to each other, you're around it all the time.

Who's gonna go on and do what with their lives. We're all talking about it. Right. Mm-hmm but when you grow up with a family, um, is not without a good a marriage. And that ends in divorce. It's not as much talked about as like, what is your, your future marriage gonna look like? You just don't talk about it.

No, no, you don't and yeah, man, there's so much there. A lot of times, I think there's a temptation to, yeah. Either run for men. Just think like that's not really an option for me. Mm-hmm . Or what I've seen on the other end of the spectrum is kind of idolizing it and making it into this thing. That's like, oh, it's gonna be so much better than what my parents had.

And it just becomes this like unrealistic thing that I'm working towards that once I get to it or get in it, it is going to be disappointing because it's not a fairy tale. It's not something that you can make the complete inverse of what your parents had. So there there's a lot there. That makes so much sense.

And it sounds like, um, and I think a lot of people like us deal with this, uh, marriage kind of becomes unattractive. Mm-hmm , it's like, well, why would I do that? I mean, it just seems, you know, looking around at the people in my life or at my parents, it just seems like it just ends in a lot of pain and dysfunction and unhappiness and misery, and like all that stuff.

It's like, mm-hmm who would want that if that's all you've been exposed to. Right. Mm-hmm yeah. And, and would someone ever. Me with all this baggage. Hmm. That's a big lie that I think a lot of, of, um, children of divorce experiences, this who are dating his experience, this lie of, of, you know, I, I just can't give them what they need because I have this part of me that's really broken, but it is, is a lie entirely.

Going back to what you said, you know, the person. That's meant for you that you hopefully marry someday will accept you in, in all of your brokenness. So that's something that I really had to, to call out as a lie and start remembering that, that that's just not true. Dang. That sounds like a long and painful process, but mm-hmm, , you've done so much and I'm sure we could talk forever about that.

Mm-hmm I did wanna ask you. If your parents were listening right now, mm-hmm what would you want them to know? What would you say to them? I think I would tell them that we all experienced in our family, this tragedy and, and at first and foremost would want them to know that I loved them. even though, um, it was really hard for us.

I'd also want them to know that. That the tragedy of their divorce has actually given me kind of a messed up way has given me a lot of freedom to understand myself and to love better. So, and not that I would thank definitely. I would definitely tell them I'm working on myself. I'd really like you to go do the same.

Be. We could just leave it at that, but I do want to, yeah. Let's keep going. yeah, no, I do wanna ask, um, if people wanted to reach out to you mm-hmm how do they, how can they do that? Mm-hmm yeah. I am always free to talk and, and listen, I'm on Instagram. You can email me. Um, my Instagram is, is Alexandra.

Underscore mad, M a T T E R N. Feel free to reach out otherwise. Uh, shoot me an email. Alexandra GMA, Gmail dot. You can also get my information through Joey, if you'd, if you'd like to gimme a call or text, happy to, to be a, a source of encouragement and, um, a friend to walk with you because this is not an easy journey to walk through.

So we gotta stick together. Amen. Not at all. It's not easy, but I do wanna ask you, how has restored helped. Yeah. Not, not to tutor on horn, but just to see, like what's been helpful. What, what is, what have we done that has been useful and helpful to you? Cuz we wanna do more of that. Mm-hmm so what, yeah, what's been helpful.

Yeah. So this podcast, actually, somebody sent this podcast to me on the same week that I found that, that picture of my family. So providential in that way, but yeah, um, this podcast has been unbelievably helpful for me just to realize that there's a lot that I think, you know, growing up, you don't realize that you went through that other people also experienced, so it kind of, it gives you a community.

It also. I, I mean, I would really recommend listening to this podcast with a pen and a paper piece of paper, writing down things that, um, stood out to you and then really sitting with those things afterwards. So I would do that a lot as I would jot something down. Um, I think on a past podcast I wrote down, somebody said it hurts to remember, but it'd be worse to forget.

So. I wrote that down. And I think about that a lot. So it'd be, it'd be worse to forget. So sometimes it's, it's just worth it to remember, you know, so good. Yeah. I wanna give you the last word, first of all, thank you so much for coming on. It takes gots. It takes courage. Like you've been talking about a lot to do something like this to share your story in such a vulnerable way, uh, with people you don't know.

So thank you seriously. Thank you so much. Mm-hmm what words of encourage. Would you give to someone listening right now, especially a young person who just feels so broken in life who feels stuck like you did, especially in their relationships because of what happened in their family because of their parents' broken marriage.

What encouragement, what advice would you give to them? I think I'd want any child, a divorce to know that every day that you decide to start the process of unpacking and adjusting and really dealing with, um, the events that happened. And the reality that is now, you know, your parents' divorce. That is a gift that you're not just giving yourself, but you're also giving to those around you.

So it is not selfish to work on yourself. It is a gift and it is loving the people around you when you choose to, to, um, work on yourself and to deal with these things. And, and you can do it.

One question I loved from the show is when Alexandra. Am I gonna be in this same spot for the rest of my life. And I, I love that question cuz it's such an honest question. I think all of us need to ask that, especially when we feel stuck, we need to look up and really face the reality of where we're at in life.

And I think it's only by doing that, that we'll be able to get unstuck and move ahead in life. Move forward in. Heal any brokenness in our life. That's holding us back. And so how about you? Are, are you gonna always be in the same spot for the rest of your life? And if you want something different, how are you gonna go about healing?

How are you gonna go about growing? Give this some thought this is certainly worth a little bit of time. Like I mentioned at the beginning, if you wanna hire. Stored, if you wanna hire me to come in and do a live or virtual event, just go to restored ministry.com/speaking. We'd love to work with you. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 61.

Thanks so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe, but most importantly, if you know someone who's really struggling because of their parents' divorce or separation, or maybe even just their broken marriage, share this podcast with them and always remember you are not alone.

We're here to help you feel whole again. And become the person that you were born to be.

#060: Divorced Parents is All I’ve Ever Known | Sydney & Daniel Binette

Since she was 2 or 3, Sydney’s parents have been divorced. It’s all she’s ever known. As a result, she spent most of her childhood living out of a suitcase between Mom and Dad’s house.

While Sydney has navigated her parents’ divorce fairly well, there have certainly been challenges. In this interview, we discuss those challenges and more:

• How Sydney has kept a good relationship with her parents and stepparents

• As someone from an intact home, her husband Dan talks about how the divorce has affected her and their relationship

• Real and raw talk about love and marriage, especially feeling at times like it is “too hard”

Email Joey@RestoredMinistry.com to schedule a meeting

Donate to Restored | Your special gift is doubled, and your monthly gift is tripled during December 2021

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Sydney Binette

  • sydneybinette@gmail.com

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Sydney was only two or three when her parents divorced. So it's really all she's ever known. And for so much of her life as a child, she lived out of a suitcase going back and forth between mom and dad, which can be so difficult. But I've always been impressed with Sydney for a lot of reasons, but one of them being, she seems like she's learned to navigate her parents' divorce pretty well.

However, as you're gonna hear in the interview, there's certainly been some challenges. So in this interview, we talk about how Sydney has a good relationship with her parents and her stepparents, her husband, Dan joins the interview to talk about how Sydney's parents divorce has affected their relationship and how he's observed it affecting.

Personally, it's really neat to get his perspective, cuz he comes from an intact family while Sydney and I come from broken families. We also touch on how challenging it is to split time between family during the holidays. And we talk about legal separation and divorce in cases of abuse as well. And overall, just a very real conversation about love about marriage, especially when you feel like marriage.

It's just too hard.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 60. If you're interested in helping us grow in helping us reach 1 million young people from broken families, helping them to heal and grow.

I'd love to speak with you personally. I'd love to meet with you on a video call or on a phone call personally, just email me@joeyrestoredministry.com. Again, that's Joey J O E Y. Restored ministry ministry, singular. Dot com I'd be honor to share the vision that my team and I have for the future. Our financial goes to make that vision a reality and the incredible results that we've seen so far, even though we feel like we've barely scratched the surface.

And if you don't have time to meet with me, but you would like to make a year end donation to restore, you can do that. A restored ministry. Dot com slash donate again, ReSTOR ministry.com/donate. If you donate by the end of the year, your gift will be matched up to $15,000. That generous donor has pledged $15,000 to ReSTOR really believes in what we're doing and your special gift.

A one time gift let's say will be doubled. So if you donate a hundred dollars, that will become $200. If you start a monthly gift in December, that will be tripled. So $100 a month goes to $300 a month, for example. So email me to schedule a time@joeyrestorministrydotcomorifyouwannadonatenowgotorestorministry.com slash donate.

So my main guest today is Sidney bonnet, and I wanna introduce her, but I do wanna say that Dan, her husband is kind of in and out of the interview at different parts. So I'll give him in a little bit of an intro too, but Sydney is the wife of Dan and mother to three young children, four year old Rosemary.

Two year old Benjamin and newborn max million Sydney was born in Baltimore, Maryland, where she was raised by her four parents from a young age. She moved to Denver, Colorado after graduating from FCAN university of Steubenville with her bachelor's degree in chemistry and has worked with students and youth of all ages as a lab manager for a graduate level, academic research lab, a high school and middle school cross country coach, as well as a nature outreach coordinator.

For elementary age students, Sydney is a devout Catholic and helped to establish the young adult group at her home parish in Denver, in her free time. She enjoys long distance running, hiking, camping, snoring, snowboarding, and traveling with her husband and children. Now, like I said, Sydney's the main guest, but I also wanna give Dan a little shout out.

Daniel bonnet is an ICU nurse and an air force reserve airman. Dan loves a good time volleyball and traveling the world. Dan, there's a lot more I could say about you, Dan and I have been friends a while Sydney and I have been friends a while as well. But, uh, without further ado, here's my conversation with Dan and Sidney,

Dan and Sidney. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Yeah, Dan, uh, right now, just to paint a picture in everyone's minds, he's holding his son, Dan and Sydney's son. Max max is a little fussy, but he's doing okay right now. So you might hear him. He might chime in into the interview, but it's really, it's good to have you guys here.

We wanted to do actually a four way interview with my wife, Bridget, but it was just too much with all the kids. So this is awesome that both of you are here. Sid. You've always kind of intrigued me. You seem, you know, I've known your story for a while. We've been friends for a while, but it seems, and correct me if I'm wrong.

It seems like you've adjusted pretty well to everything in your family. Like you seem to be doing really well in life. And I'm sure there's struggles and things, but I've always wanted to talk to you more about this because of that. And so I'm excited to, to dive in, but let's start with the basics. So how old were you when your parents got divorced?

Yeah, I was about three years old, two and a half three. I actually don't truthfully know too much of my parents' story and their divorce just cuz I was so young and I never. I never asked too many questions. They never told me much, but I was really young. And then I was also really young when my parents remarried.

They both remarried when I was about six, but they had both met their, uh, respective spouses when, you know, shortly after they divorced. Okay. So to me, you know, my parents divorced was all I ever knew the, the situation as it was with, you know, my remarried parents with my stepmom and my step was just all I ever knew and all I ever grew up with.

Totally. Okay. So there's kind of a, a blank space there. You don't really know, like you said, what went down, but did, do you have any sort of insight into that? Like over the years, have you. Learned much. I have, you know, that was probably one of the hardest parts of my childhood was I didn't know. And then there were slight comments that would be made through my childhood.

And, you know, I think it was, it was hard. It was definitely not an easy situation for them. My parents were both really young when they got married. Mm-hmm they had me and my sister really young. I, I wanna say they were in their early twenties, 20 years old, maybe 21, I think. Okay. But in their divorce, in their separation, it was, I think just a, a pretty bad relationship between the two of them.

It just, you know, kind of was something where they got married young and they just weren't ready yet. But yeah, there was definitely comments that were made through my childhood, from my grandparents and from my mom about my dad or vice versa. So I picked up on a few small things, but I just, I never asked cuz I never wanted to know.

I didn't want that to be my business or my awareness of who my parents were. Sure. It would probably change the way you thought of them or looked at them. That that makes sense. Yeah. And yeah, it's so interesting to talk to people who were really young when it happened or much older when it happened such different experiences.

And I think that's something worth mentioning that not everyone's affected the same way. It really varies. You have some people who are affected, you know, in some ways and other people who are affected in other ways, some people who are deeply affected and really struggle with all that trauma and then other people who are more well adjusted and there's different factors that go into that.

And parents that parents actually play a big role in mitigating a lot of those negative effects. So, um, I'm curious to kind of hear all of that. So growing up that was just normal for you. It's what you knew. How, um, how did you react to the dynamic in your family where. You know, you had your biological mom step biological dad, stepmom.

How was that for you growing up? Both as in your childhood and then into your teens and twenties? Yeah, thankfully I was just really blessed by the situation with my parents. I have an incredible stepmom, an incredible step. They're both an integral part of my life. My stepdad is one of my greatest role models.

He's an incredible man. And, and so I'm really thankful for the way that things unfolded over the years. Mm-hmm um, it's definitely, I, I don't wanna say that by any means to say that it was easy because there's definitely deep seated, you know, emotions, obviously with all of it. And, and I think one of the hardest things, to be honest is that.

I feel so blessed. And so it makes it feel like I shouldn't have the emotions that I have around my parents' divorce, because they really did a good job. Yeah. I mean, they set it up. Well, they never even went through a court system. They just had joint custody and it was just, they had a good enough relationship between my mom and dad that they, they didn't wanna involve a third party.

They just said, you know, we will fairly split your time. So for me, that meant as a kid that I was, I lived out of a suitcase, my entire childhood. I went back and forth. If my dad was off on a Wednesday, I was at my dad's house. If my mom was off on a Thursday, I went to my, so, I mean, I was the kid going to school with literally a suitcase in my hands.

And it was just where I was going after school every day. So I just, I never felt like I had a, a one set place mm-hmm but that being said, I had four amazing parents. And so it just, yeah, it's kind of that dual of, I, I have these emotions. It's still really hard to live this life, but. I love everyone involved, you know, I love my four parents, so yeah.

Yeah. So that was, you know, the good and the bad. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it can sometimes be hard for us to distinguish between those two, like hold the good and the bad in our hands at the same time, because you can, on one hand, admit like this has been really good in terms of, I have these people in my life, these parents who have, you know, sacrificed for me, they've given me so much, they've helped me in a lot of ways, but at the same time, acknowledging, yeah.

I've been harmed too. And it's okay to say both of those. And I think a lot of times we have this, we're like defensive of our parents against ourselves. So I know it's, it's hard for us to even admit that, you know yeah. They, that wasn't right. Yeah. It it's almost like we have this knee jerk reaction to just say, well, they did the best they can.

Yeah. That's a good way to put it. Which, which is okay to say, but just because someone did the best they can doesn't mean that's the way it should have been. And we're not saying that to. Be mean to parents. Do you hate your parents? No, not at all. Okay. I was asked that question because, uh, there's a big misconception, especially with this ministry that maybe we're trying to, so seeds of hate and try to divide the parents from the kids.

And that's not at all. We wanna help heal those relationships. And a lot of times it does require. Uh, digging into these wounds, having difficult conversations and so on. So I'm glad we're talking. So over the years, I'm just curious, were there any, um, as much as you're comfortable sharing, were there any ways that you kind of dealt with the challenges that came up maybe in unhealthy ways?

Like I know for me, um, one of my parents separated when I was 11 years old, it just completely shattered my world. So a different experience and I just did all sorts of things to numb the pain. I acted out. I was very angry, very bitter gun to pornography after a buddy of mine showed it. And that just kind of was a distraction and escape from all the pain and problems in my life.

So I'm just curious for you as much as you're comfortable sharing. Was there anything like. Yeah, truthfully, I don't have very exciting one answer because you know, my mom has said this over the recent years as an adult, now that I'm an internalize and I never thought that of myself until she has recently said that a lot.

And I'm like, yeah, I guess I really am. So, I mean, that's, it, I'm a, I'm a thinker, I'm an internalized, but I really, I didn't, I didn't find any way to cope because I didn't feel like I needed it. Yeah. And I, and so. Emotionally, it came out in different ways, you know, and we'll, I'm sure get into that, how it's come out in my marriage emotionally and, and in that way, but truthfully, I didn't, I, I didn't ever feel like I was harmed in any way to the point where I needed to do something about it.

And maybe it would've helped me, honestly, maybe it would've helped the emotions I feel about it today, but I just kind of went all my life thinking like, okay, this is how it is. And if I feel emotional about it, then I'll just cry to myself. And that's kind of just how I have to cope. Yeah. Cause this is how my life is and it's what I gotta do.

Yeah. Yeah. And you you've always been that type of person as long as I've known you. It's just kind of like, all right, this is, this is life. We just gotta do it. Like , there's no use like crying over it or, you know, or maybe letting other people know, even if you're crying in your room or out of the site, but no, that makes a lot of sense.

And kind of going back to what I said before, parents play a huge role, um, if parents do their best to, um, and, and by best, I mean like an adequate job of loving their children and helping them deal with that, it can really, really help. Like there's studies that show that if a child who comes from a broken family has a, a good relationship with one or both parents, they're statistically much less likely to struggle with loneliness, depression, anxiety.

And so it's really helpful. And sounds like you benefited from some of that, which is, which is awesome. Dan, I wanted to ask you a question because you know, you have known Sydney since you guys were. What you guys were in high school or was it even before high school? Yeah, I think we met when we were 15.

I think it was like 2009 spring of 2009. We met. Okay. So you guys were young and, uh, Let's go into that story just a little bit, and then we can kind of backtrack to effect. Sure. Just, uh, the short and sweet of it is. So we met at a restaurant. It was my first job I was working as a bus boy and Sydney had already had like 10 jobs by then, cuz she's hardworking and comes from a very hardworking family.

So German. Yeah, exactly. She's very German and they're hardworking. And I think that goes back to kind of how she internalized a lot of this where it's like, yeah, this is how it is. This is how we deal with it. We don't complain. You get what you get, you know, pitch a fit. And that's pretty much kind of how city roles.

So going back to how we met. So we met when we were younger and I mean too young to date in my parents' mind, but yeah, it's kinda like the old fashioned story, like, oh, you don't know what love is. It's too young. And like, yeah, we probably were super young, but we learned to love each other. And so we started dating in 2010.

Okay. And then. Got married in 2016. Cool. So yeah, started dating in high school, went to college and then got married a year outta college, a year and a half for Sydney. Yeah. And that's kind of the short and sweet story. Cool. I remember, uh, we were studying abroad in Austria. You guys remember this story?

This was really before I knew you guys at all. I knew you separately, I guess. Uh, I think Dan, I knew you a little bit better cuz we lived in a similar spot and in our dorm and uh, you guys were like in my room with my roommates, we were all hanging out and I saw like the way you were interacting. And I told one of my roommates later, I think.

I think Dan likes Sydney or Sydney likes Dan, one of the two . I was like, so insightful. Joey's way behind the ball. No, let alone. You've been getting foot we've dating for years. Yeah. I always love that story that cracks me up. And it's also, you know, a good point to make, because I feel like just in my personality too, when we, so I, I transferred to Franciscan university.

I studied for a year at the university of South Carolina first. Okay. Um, and I was a year ahead of Daniel, so he, you know, I, I transferred the year that he started his freshman year. Okay. Yeah. And it's funny because I remember when I was transferring and I said, okay, well, here's how it's gonna be. If we're gonna go to the same school, I'm gonna have my friends.

You're gonna have your friends. We're not gonna be like at each other's hip all the time. I want us to live our own lives. And so, yeah, it, it's kind of funny cuz that's just my personality a little bit, but you know, it's a little bit of a good segue because I think that a lot of that is probably rooted in mind, not wanting to be dependent on anyone because it was always frightening.

What was frightening about it? just that it didn't seem guaranteed. Like you can fall in love with somebody, but it might come and go, you know, you never know. So at that point we had been dating for two or three years, but, you know, and, and at that point, Daniel had already kind of communicated to me in high school that like, I'm gonna marry you one day.

And, you know, it was kind of a, it seemed like a joking thing when he said that as a little high schooler , but I, uh, I, I just, you know, it didn't really hold weight to me necessarily, cuz I was like, okay, well when we go to college, things could be different. We might be different people. So let's not hold onto this.

Like it's steadfast. Yeah. And maybe that is, you know, I never really thought about it until our marriage, but maybe it is rooted in the way I grew. Yeah. And I, I think that's, um, a lot of, for a lot of us deal with that, we just have that fear of repeating what happened in our parents' marriage. That kind of realizing that well, at any point, my spouse could leave me and that's a fear I still have to this day.

It's something that I've like worked through a lot and it's very minimal now, but it's still in the back of my head, which is hard, but yeah, a lot of us feel that and we'd rather, you know, not it too attached to involved. Yeah. When I had met Sidney, I mean, she pretty much told me she's like, I'm not gonna get married.

Tell me the least 27 until I've lived and done a lot of things that I want to do because that's kind of, yeah, exactly. I, a little bit afraid. I don't wanna say afraid of commitment, but definitely hesitant. I was definitely the one pulling the like, Hey, we should, I really wanna stay toge you know, definitely pulling whenever there were hard times.

Definitely grew up in a little bit of a different situation in my family. I was like very anchored in terms of like, you make a decision and you stay with somebody and there is that, is it? Yeah. Like, so in the same way that Sydney kind of lives her life. Matter of fact, in so many other ways, one of the only ways I live my life matter of fact, was like, if you commit to somebody, if you date somebody, then you think about marrying them.

And if you marry them, you bet you, you are not going to get separated from them. Yeah. So it was kind of a, and Cindy and I have talked about this, but just kind of a divorce or separation really wasn't in the vocabulary when I was growing up. Now, a lot of times I still saw my, you know, and my, my parents fought a lot and just like any other couple, but mm-hmm , it was always at the end of every fight.

I can almost remember my parents. Coming up to me seeing that I was upset if they fought or were in a they're like, listen, you know, that we love each other and you know, that we would never leave each other. Mm-hmm . And so that was kind of like very, I remember that like a specific that was very young. I can remember my parents saying that, so, wow.

I think you talk about the seeds. And so like, that was definitely just in the back of my mind, like, yeah, there is no second chance. There's no, Separation, like we're going all the way pretty much, no matter what happens. Wow. So, no, that's beautiful. So that's a very, very different background and your parents are still married to this day and you know, like you said, not a perfect marriage, but a beautiful example of, of what you yeah.

What you grew up with. Yeah. And I was just gonna chime in there, you know, from my side of things, you know, I, I hate to admit it, but I'll, I'll be the first to admit that like, even in our arguments, as a married couple, I'm kind of, I hate that my mind, the first place it goes is this is just too hard. Like mm-hmm we should just get out of this.

Yeah. You know, and Daniel, Daniel knows that well of me, but, but that that's just to me where he said divorce is not in his vocabulary. Like to me, it's, it's very much a Mo vocabulary, not even just in my parents and in my childhood, but there is one relationship in my whole extended family that has stayed together.

Wow. And it's my mom's mom, but every other grandparent, everyone is divorced. Aunts, uncles, uncles, aunts. Yeah. Everyone. And even, you know, The vocabulary. My parents use is very much like when I've seen other relationships in my family that have struggled, my parents are the first to say like, oh, they're really struggling.

I don't know if they're gonna make it. And so that's just, what I've always grown up with was, was that vocabulary was very prominent. Yeah. It's like, there's this off ramp that you can take. And it's like always available. And that's, I think one of the problems in our culture right now is that we, we see the divorce as a solution to problems in marriage.

And often like one of the first solutions, it shocks people to say that, but it that's absolutely true. Like so many people, a knee jerk reaction is like, You should probably get divorced. It's not gonna work out like, oh, you know, you got in an argument, you should probably get divorced. It's not gonna work out.

Your reaction is actually really normal. I, I, you probably know that, but it's really normal for people like us. Cuz sometimes we have these feelings or reactions to things and we think we're like freaks, but that's not actually the case. It's like given what we've been through, it's an appropriate response.

And uh, that's freeing, I've found that freeing and a lot of the people I've talked through through this nonprofit, through this ministry have found that freeing as well. So, but yeah, that whole idea of divorce being contagious, being something that, um, it's like a model that's set for you and it's like you said, always an option.

So I could see how you would be more sensitive to that and afraid of that. That makes so much sense. I want to go back to Dan, how did you see. The family dynamic with Sydney through the high school years and the college, and even, you know, in your twenties, how did you see all of that affect her, her parents' divorce and everything?

Yeah. So, I mean, first off when I met Sydney, in terms of, she wasn't kidding with like packing out of her, you know, living out of a suitcase or living out of a bag and yeah, this is probably terrible to say, but right now it comes in great handy, cuz she is so hyper efficient with packing and you better believe that when we took this trip here, when we're going anywhere, she's like everyone's packed already.

Got it done. And I'm like, thank you. Meanwhile, I'm literally struggling to pack my own single bag an hour before we're leaving. And she is the difference between an Italian and a German. Oh yeah. And exactly that as well. Yeah. Organization versus free spirit. And anyway, So, yeah, just kind of growing up and seeing like, with Sydney's case again, like her parents were always got along so well and they were always, so it was different because she, she, yeah.

And like everything she said, her parents got along and since they got divorced so young, but when I met her, no, yeah, she was mostly just back and forth. Definitely. Afraid of commitment. That was probably the biggest thing in terms of like, but we were young, you know, I could understand that. Sure. But definitely I think, I remember we got into an argument like early on when we first started dating and it was like very kind of scary how she was like, that's it.

And I was like, wait, this is just kind one argument. She's like, I don't wanna get hurt. I've seen what this ha I've seen what happens here. I don't want this to happen to me as well. It's happened to everyone in my family. I'm gonna get out before we get too deep into this. And that was definitely something that kind of hurt me, cuz I was like, wow, she's very, kind of got a wall up.

And like I get it. She doesn't wanna be hurt. And the only way that I can kind of combat that is just showing UN unwavering commitment and unwavering. Just kind of like, Nope, we're gonna stay together. It's okay. We'll get through this. Totally. Um, obviously that gets harder and harder. The longer you date, the longer you stay together.

And then once you get married, that's like that we've we will, tomorrow is our five year anniversary. So we will have been married for five years tomorrow. Wow. I remember the wedding. It was a, it was a fun wedding. Yeah. Best party ever. so, um, shout out to everyone at the wedding. Yeah. Anybody, but it was awesome.

So just kind of that day, it was honestly, it was a beautiful and incredible day, but I remember being like, definitely like, this is it. This is the biggest test. Like if Sydney and I go through this, that is going, this is gonna be the ultimate commitment and unwavering tests. So for me, what I saw to answer your question though, overall was just like that very hesitant, like, Nope, not gonna get married till I'm 27.

It's happened to everyone else in my family. And I'm like, well, my grandparents stayed together. I, I had a very like opposite, like, yeah, I've got some aunts and uncles that got divorced, but nearly everyone stayed together. So I was like, if you see me through this, we'll make it through like, just trust me.

Yeah. And she was kind of like on the other side of like, I really am hesitant to trust you. Mm-hmm so it was a trust thing, a commitment thing, but. Once Sydney makes her mind up with so many other things. When she sticks her mind to something, she gets it done. Mm-hmm . So I knew that that would overtake some of those commitment and anxieties with all that.

Totally. Yeah. No, that makes so much sense. There's this one researcher who says that, um, when it comes to relationships in marriage, everyone has some level of fear. Everyone faces challenges, but people who come from intact families where they've seen, you know, at least a good example of what marriage should be like.

Uh, they have that example to fall back on and it gives them confidence. It gives them courage to push on people like us who come from broken families. We feel those similar, maybe more intense fears, emotions, challenges, but we don't have anything to fall back on. We've seen a really broken model, which leaves us feeling more anxious and afraid.

Typically, you know, everyone's experience is perhaps different, but. That's why I can totally see what you guys are saying. Like you came from one background, so you came from another background. Yeah. It sounds super interesting and challenging to kind of mesh those together. I wanna keep going down this path unless you had anything you wanted to say to that.

Yeah. So I wanna keep going down this path of relationships and transition into talking about your marriage as much as you're comfortable. You know what I need to tell us everything unless you want to I'm, I'm an open book, you know, me, Joey. I'm pretty much an open book. Oh yeah. Yeah. So yeah. What have been some of the challenges that you would likely attribute to, you know, coming from a broken family or, or not?

What, what are some of the challenges that you guys have faced? Yeah, I think the biggest one is, you know, as we were just discussing. Every marriage has arguments. Many of them, I'm not saying don't get married, but there's always gonna be arguments in marriage. So we definitely fight a good bit. And it always to me comes to, you know, like, like I had previously said, just this is too hard.

Like maybe this wasn't wasn't right. So I think my thought process is, is definitely the most challenging thing that we face in our marriage. The next, just cuz it's on the forefront for me would be, you know, as it's early December, right now we're approaching Christmas mm-hmm and holidays are really, really hard for me.

Mm. Um, they always were growing up. It was always, you know, a back and forth kind of thing. Like we were here for these hours here for these hours. And it was just so divvied up. Mm-hmm . And so now you add not only, you know, most marriages would have two families mixed in now we have three cuz we have my mom's side, my dad's side and his parents' side.

Yeah. So trying to navigate that has been not only challenging, but to me it's like, this is even worse than it was when I was a kid. You know, I, it was enough for me to split it between two. I thought I was gonna get married and have my own family and now splitting it between three is, is really hard. And it honestly makes a lot of arguments between Daniel and I during the holidays.

Yeah. It brings tension, brings drama. It can totally relate. But yeah. Dan, if you had any thoughts on that love day. Yeah. I mean, you talk about in terms of. Trying to get family together and trying to be giving everyone equal time, um, you know, marrying into a family that has two families already, you know?

Yeah. My side of the family kind of sees it as, okay, you've got it's 50, 50 it's our family gets 50% and then Sydney's two families. They get 25 and 25. Mm. And it is tough because I'm almost immediately like, that's not, it's, it's a third, a third, a third. It's gotta be. And they're like, well, we're not the ones who got separated.

Why are we getting punished for that? I was like, mom and dad, I chose to marry Sydney because I love her more than anything in the world. And I chose to go into a family that has two families. So at that point we need to separate it into a third, a third, a third, and try to make it as equal as possible.

But at the end of the day, I mean, even Sydney and I have been married for five years and it's like, at the end of the day, we are still the bonnets and there will come a time when it's just gonna be. In turn it's, it's tough with holidays. Yes. Just like we are the only ones and we're gonna spend time with our family.

Yeah. Wow. I never, yeah. I never heard that ratio like of the 25, 20 or 25, 25 50 versus the a third each. Um, but that makes someone sense. And we've, we've experienced that too. When we typically go home to Chicago, it's, we're visiting typically staying with my mom. And so my dad, we don't see him as much, but now that we have a baby, now that we have Lucy, our time is even more valuable to them.

Like they wanna spend time with their grandchild, which totally makes sense. And I'm sure you guys see that too. Yeah. So, you know, whereas in the past, maybe it wasn't as big of a deal if we didn't spend equal time with mom and dad, um, now it's becoming a bigger deal and even the first trip we took there, people were unhappy.

yeah. So it's hard. It's really hard to, to navigate that. Has there on kind of the positive side, has there been anything that you've learned that has made navigating those holidays easier, better? I wish I could say yes. No, that's okay. Yeah. We're still, we're still figuring it out five years married. Yeah.

This will be our, I guess, fifth Christmas together. Okay. As a married couple. And um, and yeah, no, it's still really hard. Recently got into a conversation actually with my mom. We we're kind of jumping around a lot right now. We're in the midst of a, a big move for Daniel joining the air force and trying to navigate that.

But that being said, we've been living with my mom for the past two months. And then, um, recently just moved back up to my dad's house. Okay. Yep. And got into a conversation with my mom where she expressed how offended she was with the way that we've split up our time. Mm-hmm and it. Really shocking to me to have her say that I, you know, she was really justified in saying that because of the way we have divvied up, it's been a challenge, like we just said, but yeah, I was pretty taken aback to hear that mostly because, you know, my thought was, I didn't, I didn't wish this.

Like, I don't want to have to be the one to choose where I'm divvying up my time. So in answer to your question, no, we haven't figured out an easy way to navigate that at all. We're still working on it and that's definitely a really big challenge in our marriage right now. Yeah. Okay. No, that makes sense.

And thanks to your honesty, cuz I think that's where a lot of people are at and what I've observed in my life and the lives of the people that I talk to is that. Some years are better, other years are worse. And so, yeah, I wish I could say some years are better. I've hated it every year. So far.

increasingly worse. It's been increasingly worse. Yeah. And you know, not to say there's no hope cuz we're, we're gonna work on it. We're gonna figure it out. And like Daniel said, we're gonna establish ourselves as our own little family. Now with three kids, you know, eventually it'll come to a point where we are just our own entity.

And so that's really what I think we have to hold steadfast to is, is who we are as a young couple and as a, you know, growing couple together. Yeah. I think balancing any holiday or. Birthday or celebration graduation when Sydney walked down the aisle, her mom and her dad. Um, so our biological mom and dad were on either in, in both of her hands on her.

Right. And her left hand. Okay. Yeah. And her stepparents were actually just behind them. And I think it was a good symbolization of how well they get along and how well, like Sydney said, they were able to cooperate with each other and super nice. And they've hung out multiple times at graduations and things like that.

There's still some hesitancy when it comes to, you know, nobody wants to spend a lot of time with the person that they divorced. Obviously I can understand that, but I think just going back to the holidays and birthdays, and it's been. It it's been a learn. I mean, I don't wanna say tough cuz I could never understand what Sydney's gone through, but a lot of it is a learning experience for me the day that I married Sydney and her mom and dad walked down the aisle and there were two extra people mm-hmm who I thought it was a very symbolic kind of passage into, we are all family now.

Exactly. Like I was talking about with the percentages and we were all family now. And so yeah, when it's Rosemary's fourth birthday, she's gonna get three birthday parties. She's gonna get my mom and dad. She's gonna, and there was a point, I think Sidney was gonna say something like, I need to watch what I say in certain.

Scenarios. Hmm. Yeah. So we just celebrated Rosemary's fourth birthday last week. So that just happened. And that conversation just happened where Daniel said something to my dad about, oh gosh, she's already had so many birthday parties and gotten so many presents. We've done this with every parent so far.

And I didn't, I didn't say with every parent who are, but I, I definitely was like, geez, another birthday party. And like, it was totally insensitive because yeah, but it's kind of funny cuz you. Like I said, and like I talked about my childhood growing up, I'm an internalized and I just like, I, I just handled things and I just did what I was told.

And it was like, okay, we just opened Christmas presents all morning long, but now we're at another house opening Christmas presents again. And for a kid, that's a dream. Yeah. You know, two Christmases, but you know, it's funny now seeing Daniel kind of go through that process of growing into that reality now as an adult, whereas I experienced it as a kid.

And so to me, I have filters where I'm like, you just don't say certain things. Mm. And maybe you do, maybe you should say certain things, but I just I'm like, Nope, this that's not appropriate in, in this context. But yeah, it is funny cuz I, I just grew up with two of everything, always two birthday parties, two Christmases, two, um, you know, whatever it was, it was.

You just did you did double. Yeah. No, that makes sense. And that there's totally some positive aspects to that, but, um, I know what I typically hear is people will throw that around is like, see the divorce isn't that bad. Like everyone's happier. Yeah. And I know that's not what you're saying, but I think it's just worth mentioning for everyone listening, just so they don't misunderstand us.

But, um, yeah, for a kid that is, uh, I remember when my parents first separated like that Christmas, um, I think my dad was trying to like overcompensate and he just like bought us. Like at that time it was like PS two and just like all these games. And it was that aspect of, it was like, okay, this is kind of fun.

This is cool. But then deeper down. And I was like, this sucks. Like, this is really not the way I wish it was. But like you said, it's just the hand that we're dealt and we have to deal with it. So I want to go to, yeah, you brought up the kids, so let's just go there for a second. Have you thought about. Kind of Rosie's perspective on, and I mean, all your kids, but on her grandparents.

And have you had any conversations? I know she's so young now at four, but have you had any conversations like that or have you thought ahead to what you might say? Yeah. So to the first part of that, We actually recently, Rosemary, you know, we're, since we're bouncing around living with various family for now, she recently, you know, she's starting to learn like who is whose mom, you know, to her.

I am her mom. So to think of me having a mom is very like what . Yeah. Um, but so she's starting to ask those questions and it's, it's really sweet. You know, recently she asked that about my stepmom. She said, wait, but if only is your mom, then who are you? And so. She's definitely starting to understand that a little better and yeah.

And ask those questions and yeah, we do have to start thinking about how we're gonna answer those questions for her. Thankfully. So far, it's been just an over abundance of love because she has so many grandparents and family members that all love her. And, and so she's, you know, really sweet about just enjoying all of that time with everyone and, and who everyone means to, you know, what they mean to her.

Mm-hmm but in terms of answering those questions, it it's gonna be tough because, you know, especially for me, when, when Dan and I do get in those fights and we have those, those conversations, you know, for me, of course, my first thought is my kids. , you know, I guess my prayer for everyone who's experienced divorce is that that'll be the same for them because you think of your kids and you think of what it's done to you emotionally.

Mm-hmm , you know what it's done to me and what I don't wanna do to my kids ever. Yeah. So I think that's, they are a huge factor in what is gonna like keep our marriage moving forward, always because I don't wish this upon anyone. Yeah. Well, I think Joey probably has mentioned this in his other podcast as well, but just in terms of the fine line of staying together, if you're in a relationship that's struggling really badly and you have kids and just, yeah.

Staying together for the kids. Right. Is that like a blink 180 2 song or something? something , it's like about like, I think there's a, a line, you know, when of unhealthiness, like arguments and difficulties and then like, you obviously don't want to stay in an abusive relationship together if you have kids just to keep them, because that would do even more damage.

Yeah. To see mom and dad being abusive to each other. Mm-hmm , that's way worse than them being separated. Right. But in terms of just are, you know, there's there's and obviously, although I got a degree in psychology, I'm no psychologist, but when I learn and think about childhood development and just what a divorce does to, to the child's mind and to a kid, uh, growing up, like there is that fine line where I'm myself.

Sometimes even now, if things get bad enough, are we gonna stay together just for the kids? And where is that line for? I know I'm going off on a different track. No, no, this is very relevant. Keep going. Right. It's like, are we staying together for the kids? If Rosie and we're fighting in the car and Rosie's like, stop, stop, stop.

And I'm like, oh, it just kills me. Like we're raising our voices at each other. And my three year old in the back is like, mom and dad, stop. I hate it when you fight. And I was like, oh man, like, yeah. So, you know, there is that, that fine line, but it's also okay. If your kids see you fight. Yeah. You know, that's a normal thing.

I saw my parents fight and lots of people do, but it's that line of like, where things get harmful when kids can really get scarred. Mm-hmm . If they see you guys fighting in a. Super abusive way or anything like that. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, that's a great point. And this is a hard thing to talk about.

This is a very nuanced conversation when, with the topic that you just brought up, like, yeah, you should fight for your marriage, but where's the line where you need to like protect yourself for your kids. So what we talk about and what the, you know, for any Catholics listening, what the catechism says in can law that's church law.

If you're not familiar, basically it, that divorce is traumatic. It's brings disorder into the world. It's a very bad thing, especially for the kids, but there might be situations where it's a necessity because of abuse or threat of death or violence, something like that. And so in that situ. it should be looked at as a means as a legal maneuver to offer protection.

And it should never be used as like, well, I just wanna quit. It should be used only as like, I need to protect myself and my kids. And so that's and the church law, Ken law says that you separation might actually be a step in the direction of healing, the marriage. It's not ideal that you would go through that, especially for the sake of your kids, because that could be the separation itself can be traumatic, but sometimes it's necessary.

And so the hope and the goal is always to heal the marriage and bring the family back together. Now, is that always realistic? No, but then we get into the much bigger topic of, is marriage, just a contract? Is it a piece of paper or is there something more deep on a human level, on even a spiritual level where you make this vow and you're bonded to this person for life?

I. And if that's the case, which I believe it is, then marriage is more than just a civil contract. And so even if that civil contract were to be broken as a legal maneuver to offer protection, there's still the vows that you promised to your spouse, which it's a tough thing to talk about. It really is, but that, that's the way that we look at it.

So to anyone listening right now who maybe, you know, someone, or perhaps you are in an abusive situation, what we would always say is like, get to safety, get to safety, and that if that involves leaving your spouse, you do that. But thankfully just to offer a little more insight, cuz this often comes up, especially with this ministry, just offer a little more insight into that.

One of the leading researchers on the effects of divorce on the children, uh, has said that roughly 30% of divorces are actually, and this was years ago, 30% of divorces are actually those high conflict situations. So it might have gone up a little bit, but 70% are low conflict. Meaning there wasn't abuse.

There wasn't like a ton of, you know, overt fighting, just lots of violence or. Drama at home, 70% is situations where, you know, the couple has problems, but they could work through them if they chose and not to say, it's not hard, it's absolutely hard. But about 70% of, of those divorces, uh, could, could be worked through.

And that number might have gone up quite a bit because we've normalized divorce, uh, so much in our culture that, uh, it's a much easier thing to do now. And for the people who are in abusive situations, that's a helpful thing for people who need. Encouragement to stick with their wedding vows, to stick with their marriage, to work through the issues, to do whatever's necessary to get through that.

That's a bad thing. So it's very nuanced. There's like a lot to talk about here. So yeah. Any thoughts on that? Yeah. A couple comments on that, you know, first for us, when you talk about our vows and our wedding day, something that I frequently think back to, and Daniel's heard me say this a lot, but I really hold tight to what our, the priest who married us said in his homily during our wedding.

And he actually. You know, for those of you who aren't familiar with the Catholic church, usually priests can't get married, but there is a certain case where there are some priests, very few priests, but there are some priests who have been married. And so our priest was actually one of them. And so hearing it from his perspective is really interesting cuz he, you know, he stands for, you know, as a father of the Catholic church, but also as a father to his biological children.

Yeah. And, and he said in his homily to us, you know, today you are getting married because you love each other. But from now on love each other because you are married mm-hmm . And so I hold to that a lot. You know, when you talk about those, those cases of marriage where it's just low conflict or, you know, they've fallen outta love or the fights have TA overtaken their love, you know, I think that's one thing that's really important to hold tight.

Two mm-hmm mm-hmm is, you know what you stood. The day you made those vows and, and I definitely can't speak too much to the cases of high conflict sure. Situations, because it's just not something that I've ever experienced or am familiar with. Thanks to God for that. Yeah. And I'm sure that that's very challenging to maneuver, um, and to, to face for many but one thing to add to that is I, I think one way that I have kind of grown to cope with, you know, as we go back to the definition of, you know, bringing up the, the word divorce in your marriage.

One thing that I have really tried to separate out is the difference of separation and divorce. Yeah. You know, as a faithful Catholic, I, I really don't wish to stand for divorce. Mm-hmm um, except for in certain situations like we talked about, but, you know, I. The old saying separation makes the heart grow fonder, whether it's true or not, maybe not always, but you know, and Daniel and I have thankfully never faced this, but I try and just separate those two words out where maybe sometimes there's situations, if it is high conflict, where separation is essential, it's necessary to recover the situation.

And then the, the prayer moving forward was be that you still get back together, your divorce, your marriage hasn't, hasn't been broken, you know, you're still married, but maybe that, that time is necessary to be a part. So mm-hmm yeah, that's just kind of, I think a way of coping for me is I don't want to bring divorce into our marriage ever, but if it ever did come up, separation might be important first.

Sure. And I think that's something that our society really overlooks a lot. Yeah. And kind of skip that step no, a hundred percent. And the, the intention behind a divorce is very telling to some people, you know, like in the case of abuse, like we're talking about, they're doing it as a mean to protection.

Right. And, and there's kind of, there's two legal ways. You could go, at least in the United States, it might be different around the world, but there's, um, a divorce or there's a legal separation. And I, I couldn't tell you no lawyer. Couldn't tell you all the legal differences there, but one is more, the divorce is more final.

The legal separation is more of like an intermediate step. Yeah. It's, uh, it can be a step in the right direction to hopefully heal the marriage. Like I know of one couple right now, the husband's an alcoholic and he's just gotten down really bad path. And the wife is like, just genuinely wants to him to heal, get his act together, them to be a family.

Again, they have kids. It's really sad situation. Um, but he hasn't done that. And so she had to go the route of a legal separation. She didn't want to do the divorce because she believes in the, in marriage and it being lifelong. Um, but she can't be in that situation. So sometimes you have to make those hard decisions.

Yeah. Contrasting that with someone who, you know, might say, well, I've just fallen out of love. And I just want to get out of this and start over again. Those are ver two very different things. And that's the first case it's like, yes, that's understandable. The second case. It's, that's where we would push back and say, no, like fight for your marriage.

There's there's so much good that can come out of it, even if you have to fight for years to, to bring that good into your marriage. So yeah. Does that make sense with the two differences? Yeah, definitely. And you know, not to compare and contrast two marriages, but when I look at my parents versus my own marriage, thankfully, you know, I guess my response to some would be just that marriage is always gonna be hard.

I think, you know, I haven't talked with too many people about their encounters with marriage and their, you know, what they, what they deal with. But to me, I guess that's my perspective is that it's always gonna be hard. And for Daniel and I, we, there was nothing. In our dating life that would've indicated that our marriage wouldn't be great.

Yeah. Um, you know, we had a really great relationship dating. We were best friends. We still are in many ways beautiful, but it's, it's taken a, you know, it's different than it was when we were dating. Sure. Um, there's a lot more pressure. There's a lot more discussions to be had. And so it takes your best friend relationship to a, a different kind of level.

But yeah, for us, like we had a great intro into our wedding day. Um, so that being said. You know, having had that, versus when I look at my parents' relationship and how they didn't really have that, they were young, you know, for them, to my knowledge, they got married because they both wanted to be outta their parents' house.

They both wanted to be independent on their own. And the only way to really do that at their age was let's just get married, independent on each other. Sure. They didn't know each other too long. They were kind of a, an unexpected couple in college, very, or in high school, they were very different. And so looking at them and seeing how, how the, their marriage, you know, went about and ended mm-hmm is just kind of a Testament to me that it's always gonna be hard.

So, you know, even if you're best friends first, even if you have everything is rock solid going in, it's gonna be hard. And, and so, yeah, I think that's just something that I try to keep in perspective is okay. You know, even if I say that I wanna just start a new with somebody else, it's gonna be hard again.

Yep. Especially because. You know, Dan and I have the history that we have together that is such a rock for us. And, you know, you look at what your life could be like, and, you know, you have to ask yourself, is it really better? You know, is, is what that does to your children is what that does to yourself and your, your emotions.

Um, having a, especially having already grown up with divorce mm-hmm and then having to experience the emotions of that in a much more even personal level on your own. So again, of course, this is only for those cases where it's, it seems like an easy out versus it being a, a much more. High conflict situation.

Yeah. A necessity to protect people. Yeah. Max, you could hear max in the back. Hey, Hey buddy. No. So that makes so much sense. And, uh, there's this quote, I, I can't remember the whole thing, but it basically goes like, choose your heart. Marriage is hard. Divorce is hard. Choose your hard. And it goes through like this whole litany of different things that are hard and you just have to choose which, which hard do you want to go with.

And so, uh, it, I, I think it's a good reminder. And one of the essential ingredients of having a really healthy marriage is, uh, good expectations. And if you go into it thinking it's gonna be a fairytale, you're gonna be very shocked to notice that it's not and you're gonna have conflict. And if you think you're never gonna fight, um, you're gonna be shocked and that's gonna lead you to doubt, like, man, maybe I married the wrong person, or, you know, maybe I shouldn't have even gone down this marriage path at all with anyone.

So, no, I think it's a great reminder. And the fact that, uh, when you get divorced and get remarried, your divorce rate is much higher because I think people are fooled by that thinking like, no, it'll be so much different. And not to say there's some people who have a second marriage, that's like very happy.

They're faithful and things go well. Um, so there are those cases, but statistically, the majority of people, it just repeats itself, which is I think very telling of what could happen. Mm-hmm so going to kind of, some of the struggles we've, uh, had, cuz I don't want you to be the only one sharing. Uh, it's certainly been, even in our dating relationship, it's been a.

Difficult because I was always really afraid of love and marriage and vulnerability. Like even when we were in Austria and you know, I was starting a relationship there, I was just terrified of that. I didn't really know how to go about it all, to be honest with you. And, uh, there's so much fear, so much fear, so much anxiety I wrestled with so much before I would even get to the point of like asking her to be in a relationship with me.

And no one could tell that unless I told them it was, you know, I kept a good exterior kind of like you and just dealt with it. But, um, man, it was so hard and then fast forwarding to met my now wife bridged in our dating relationship. It was always difficult for me to just be vulnerable and trust. I like you and pretty fiercely independent.

And a lot of that I think is just a protection mechanism. Just like, well, what if you leave me? I need to, you know, make sure to keep my autonomy. To an unhealthy level. And, um, and it certainly is a balance, you know, there are other people on the other end of the spectrum who have an over reliance on each other to where it becomes this enmeshed unhealthy relationship.

But on the other end of the spectrum, you know, you have people who are so fiercely independent, it's almost like they do nothing for each other. So we've tried to hit that balance, but it's been hard. And so, uh, another fear of mine, like I mentioned before is just that maybe one day bridge would just leave me cuz to me as a kid, that's kind of what happened with my parents.

It was just like, I, my parents didn't have a perfect marriage. They certainly fought, there were problems there. And we kind of knew that I was kids, but they were together and that was good. And then out of the blue, it seemed to me, I later have learned more of the details. Um, they just. Broke apart. And I was like, what?

Like, how could that happen? And as an 11 year old boy, uh, that just like imprinted this idea in me that at any point, anything could fall apart. And that's a difficult thing to bring into a marriage because what I've learned too is we almost had this subconscious expectation that our spouse will leave us or that the marriage will end.

And we act off of that expectation, which then contributes to it actually becoming a reality mm-hmm so you have this like cycle that we have to fight through. So it definitely complicated, but, uh, for us it's been, it's been challenging. And I think at times that can just be emotionally distant in my marriage, whether it's all, you know, related to what happened to my family or not, that can be talked about and debated certainly a lot of it is.

And, uh, I've had to be very conscious and work through that and we go to counseling and do all that good stuff. So, yeah. Um, you guys aren't alone and, uh, we certainly have our arguments and sometimes they're handled very well resolved. Well, other times they're not other times it ticks days or, you know, longer to really, uh, resolve a situation.

But one of the things we've always tried to do, especially now that we have our daughter, Lucy, Is to resolve it. And she's like you said before, the kids are so much more motivating. It's like, I remember I was interviewing Jason Everett and we were talking about people who, you know, just feel tempted to cheat on their spouse.

Cause that's a real thing. And um, one of the things he said is like, yeah, once you have kids, you know, you might feel like, gosh, like, you know, really angry at your spouse. Like I could cheat on you right now, but I can never cheat on my kid. And so I think it's really beautiful and it kind of shows what family life is meant to look like.

Not that everyone could have kids, but I think there is that it's more permanence once you have the kids in the family in an extra level of motivation. Yeah. That's really sweet story. And I was gonna go back, you know, to what Daniel said about Rosemary, has she makes comments about, you know, please don't fight or she'll say sweet things.

Like, you know, you just have to say, sorry, and dad, you have to forgive her. And you know, she kind of coaches us also on the things that we coach her on. So it's practice what you preach. You know, I think the question that that poses is like you just shared with your childhood, you know, you don't wanna set a facade for your children.

I recently read about blessed Jerome LA June is someone that I really love. I hope that he becomes a Saint one day. We just named our, our third son after him and was a French doctor. He was a French doctor. He, uh, discovered the, the cause of down syndrome, which is why we named our son after him. Cuz our second son has down syndrome.

That's right. But anyways, he, he was an awesome guy. He has a, a book about him that I was reading and his daughter wrote it. And she says that she never saw her parents fight, you know, mm-hmm which maybe they had a really blessed marriage where they just, they didn't very often, but maybe that's naive to say maybe they did.

And they just didn't expose their kids to that. So I think the question it poses, you know, like I was saying is you don't wanna lead your kids on to think that arguments don't happen. Mm-hmm I think more importantly, you wanna teach them that they do and that they can be overcome. Mm. Yeah. But at the same time, you know, I think a big thing for us, and I'm not very good at those.

You can say that too, but is, is showing your kids both sides because my love language is by no means physical touch , you know, the German in me, I guess, is very, just put up a wall and stand straight um, just kidding. Germans are great. I love them. she's right. but, but to me, you know, when you fight, you know, Daniel is the first to always end it in.

Let's just hug. and, and I think that's important for your kids to see too is affection. And is you showing them that it's okay to fight, but you have to overcome and you have to forgive each other. And, you know, I think it kind of circles me not to go on a totally different topic, but it circles me to one of the big things that I've always said to Daniel to try and teach him or show him, you know, how it really feels to be a child of, of divorced parents.

But it really hit me, I think the first time being exposed to his parents when I walked in the door one day and I just saw them, you know, his dad walked home from work and gave his mom a hug and a kiss. Hmm. And I think that's the first time it really hit me was when I saw that. And I was like, I have never seen that in my life.

Mm-hmm , I've never seen my parents walk in the door and hug and kiss each other. Mm. And so that's really hard, you know, I've seen that with my stepparents, which again, beautiful relationships, beautiful people, but just that it kind of just hit me like a jab when I was like, I have, I would. I would love to just see my parents walk in the door and hug and kiss each other.

And so for, for those who have kids and, you know, for those who maybe aren't married, you know, if you're in high school or whatever, you aspire to be a, a mom or dad and have kids and, you know, be a spouse is just keep the affection, you know, show your kids that it's okay to have arguments, but you have to love each other still.

Mm, wow. That's beautiful. And I love that desire that you had for that. I think that's what we all ultimately want. And I think part of the reason this whole thing is so painful is that it's a desire that's often Mo most often not gonna be fulfilled. Like I remember my siblings and I saying something like that, and there was some drama going on at home.

And, uh, one of us said, like, we just want our family to be together to be whole, I forget which siblings said that, but it just like destroyed me, like, and I, wasn't a really emotional guy and. High school beginning of college, but that, that was like a stung. It was like, yeah, that would be really great. So I definitely know that experience, so many good things.

Kind of switching gears maybe a little bit. What did you maybe need from your parents that they weren't aware of all those years? Uh, or maybe just didn't provide? Hmm. Yeah, that's a good question. I think maybe just more awareness of the situation, you know, as we've touched on, they were really good at, you know, and this is, like you said, the defensive side where you wanna defend your parents.

Mm-hmm they were really good at handling it. They were really good at showing us that we had two sets of parents who were very involved in our life, who loved us very much. And, you know, basically creating it as if it were a. Unbroken relationship. But I think with that, you know, what that did with me was made me feel like I couldn't feel emotions about it, or I couldn't feel like it was, you know, a situation to be sad about because they just, not that they masked it, but it just wasn't talked about.

Sure. It was just, you know, like I said, this is the way it is. You get what you get mm-hmm and, you know, especially, you know, as I touched on the conversation I recently had with my mom and my sister, and I have only occasionally talked about how we feel mm-hmm , but it was just, you know, maybe just having them say, I know this is hard on you.

Like that was just never verbalized. Yeah. It was more put on me of. , I don't wanna pressure you, you know, I don't want you, I don't wanna pressure you to come for home for Christmas or, you know, whatever the conversation was, but it was just put on me to make the decision, whereas, you know, I wanna throw it right back and say, this isn't on me.

Yeah. And so I think just that would've been really, really impactful. Mm-hmm to have my parents be the ones to say, you know, it's really touching to sit here with you, Joey. And have you say like, you know, you're not at fault or it's okay. That you feel this way. Many people feel this way. That's, that's really touching to hear.

But I think hearing that from your parents is even more impactful to just hear them say this isn't your fault. And I know this is hard cause I was never said a hundred percent. Yeah, I would, man, that would be really nice. I think like you said, you nailed it when you said a lot of parents are just unaware, like your parents using them as an example.

But, uh, but that seems to be pretty normal. There seems to be three types of parents just in this work. This is like, what we've learned. One type of parent is just a parent. Who's totally. They just like really don't have an idea or at least not a good idea of like what you're going through, what I'm going through.

The second type of parent is someone that they're aware. They have some insight into it. Maybe they went through their parents' divorce. Um, but they just don't know what to do about it. So they kind of, maybe they act like they aren't aware or they just feel pretty lost. So they just don't do anything.

And the third type of parent, which I have met, they're rare. They're the ones who have the awareness and then take like steps to help their kids deal with it and apologize and own up to the mistakes that they've made. And it's really beautiful. There's this one, couple Barb and Joe I've had the honor of meeting with and talking to, and, um, they just really beautiful.

They're like going to their kids and talking about how they're so sorry for what happened. They both were divorced. Got married. And then, um, 20 years later, they're starting to wake up to this reality. So a lot there, uh, just in closing out. if your parents were here right now, I know some of what you just said would apply.

What would you say to them? it's a tough, probably the toughest question I've asked so far. Yeah, definitely. Cuz you know, I wanna say, I'd say nothing. I'd say don't listen, don't, you know, don't hear my emotions, but you know, I think I would, I would say thank you for loving us and handling it the way you did and giving us, you know, showing us still what it means to love somebody mm-hmm because you know, they did that really well in their second marriage, both of them.

So I'd, I'd say thank you for that, but I'd also say, please hear me, you know, please know that this is hurt. Wow. Just closing out. I wanna give you last word first. Thanks for coming on. Um, for any of you listening, you might be wondering where's Dan , he's kind of been popping in and out taking care of the kids.

Yeah. Just curious to anyone who comes from the background that we come from. Dan, I'd love to hear your thoughts too. What, what advice would you give to someone like that, especially who wants to be married one day, um, who maybe, you know, Dan, from your perspective, advice to someone like you, who's marrying someone from a broken family, what would you say to them?

And then said, I wanna throw it to you as well to say, what advice would you give to, um, someone who does come from a broken family? Who's marrying someone from an intact family. Yeah. Just that stay strong, you know, no matter what I liked what you said at the beginning, Joey, when you talked about like, these feelings are normal, like not a lot of people, I feel like get told that like, it's okay to have these feelings about, you know, either blaming yourself and I know your book, it's not your fault.

like, that's a huge part of like, just being able to not blame yourself. And when you do have those feelings towards your parents, like, and then having that guilt as well, all of this is a normal process in a very similar way. Um, when we learn about the stages of grieving, like all normal things. Just because they're like, it's terrible.

They're awful things that have to, you have to go through, but those are normal feelings to have. And then just telling people who, uh, wanna get married or who are in a relationship like that, just like, yeah, exactly. Stay strong. And like, except for those things that we talked about, um, in terms of like staying together for the kids for certain other reasons, like if 70% of marriages get 70% of those divorces are because of like, I don't wanna say smaller issues, but what was the term you used?

Uh, low conflict. Yeah. Low conflict. Like, I feel that that is so true. So yeah, if you put your heart and soul into your spouse and into your marriage, you can make it work. Beautiful. Sid. Would you add anything for, you know, especially a couple like you guys, one comes from an intact family. One comes from a divorced family, any advice for navigating marriage and life together?

You know, as we've talked about, we're both Catholic. I actually wasn't Catholic growing up. I wasn't Catholic until I met Daniel for that matter. Um, and I know some listeners may or may not be, but whatever your beliefs are. I think that something that really hits home for me is when Daniel used to tell me that he would pray every night with his mom for his future spouse.

Hmm. And I was like, whoa, you know, having grown up, not even somebody who was praying at all, um, just the thought of like, there was this woman who sat with her son, however old, he was two years old in the bedroom praying for me and she didn't even know me. So I think my, you know, my biggest thing is whatever age you are, whatever stage you are in your life, pray for your future spouse, pray for your, the kids, your kids, future spouses.

Yeah. You know, I, I pray that that is what has brought us together. That that's what will keep us together. Mm-hmm um, the power of prayer is, is really important.

Love that conversation. If you wanna reach out to Sydney, you can find our contact information in the show notes. Again, if you'd like to meet with me personally, to talk about ReSTOR vision, I'd love to do that. Just email me@joeyrestorministry.com. Again, that's Joey ReSTOR ministry.com will schedule a time to get together.

If you'd like to make a donation to ReSTOR, just go to restored ministry.com/donate. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 60. Thank you so much for listening, and this has been useful. Feel free to subscribe, but most importantly, if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce or separation broken marriage, go ahead and share this podcast with them.

Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#059: From a Broken Family? 9 Tactics to Navigate the Holidays

Are you from a broken family? If so, you know how challenging the holidays can be. Not only is it difficult to balance time between mom and dad, but we also have to deal with any family drama. Instead of enjoying the holidays, many of us just can’t wait till they’re over.

But there is good news: it doesn’t always have to be that way. In this episode, you’ll hear 9 tactics that you can use to navigate the holidays and hopefully, enjoy them again. It won’t make them perfect, but it will make them better.

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)

Links & Resources

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• Listen to episode 32: How to Navigate the Holidays: Advice from 11 Children of Divorce

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you come from a broken family, I don't have to tell you how challenging the holidays can be. Not only do we have to balance the logistics of spending time with mom and dad, but we also have to deal with any family drama intention, and it can truly make the holidays painful instead of enjoying them.

So many of us just can't wait until they're over. And I get it. I've experienced this myself many times, but there is good. It doesn't always have to be that way. In this episode, you'll get nine tactics that you can use to navigate the holidays and hopefully enjoy them again. Now, I can't promise you that if you do these things, that your holidays will be perfect, but they will be better.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce. Separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Elli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 59. I wanna jump right into the content. The content you're about to hear is from my new book.

It's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. And at the end of the episode, I'll tell you how you can get the book if you want it. And I even have a free offer for you by the. There's mention of God in this episode, if you don't believe in God, you can just ignore that part.

I promise that you'll still benefit from this episode, even if you take that part away. So my challenge for you is to listen with an open mind

question 15. What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life event? During the holidays coming from a broken family is even more difficult. It's a stark reminder that your parents aren't together and your family is broken. It's common to feel alone and uncertain of how to deal with it all logistically it is challenging to balance time between each parent and twice as many festivities, especially if they don't live in the same area, it's easy to feel pressure to choose sides and pick between parents while you try to make everyone happy.

It becomes overwhelming to balance everyone's desires and expectations. If the divorce was relatively recent, the drama intention might be especially high, which makes it all the more challenging instead of enjoying the holidays. You dread them. But my hope is that the advice below will be handled the season and even experience some holiday joy.

Again. First, remember that it's not your responsibility to make everyone happy. It's not your job to fix your parents. It's not your job to clean up the mess inside your family. Although you love your parents, you have to remember that your parents got themselves in this situation. Now they need to deal with the consequences.

You can't change them. You can't change your family. Sure. You can positively influence them. But within limits, don't feel ashamed about spending time with one parent during the holidays. You're not portraying the other parent. You deserve a relationship with both parents around this time of year, especially your parents and other people might expect you to put on a good face and be happy.

That's not right. You should never have to pretend to be happy in the midst of a difficult situation. Remember that you can't make everyone happy, nor should you try when you try to make everyone happy, you'll end up making no one happy and yourself miserable. Second set and enforce healthy boundaries.

Boundaries. Define what you like and dislike what you're willing and unwilling to do the rules that inform people how to treat you in a way they're like the out of bounds markers on the sports field. When it comes to the holidays. It's okay to lay down those rules with your parents. Boundaries, give people the option to self-select out from a relationship with you.

If they are not follow. So think through what you will allow and not allow. For example, you can tell dad that you won't talk to him about mom, or you can set rules about how much time you'll spend with each parent. This holiday season boundaries are especially important to protect you from manipulative people who want to control you for their own benefit by using fear, guilt, or sense of obligation.

If you're faced with someone like that. Back out of the situation or confront them and be clear that you won't allow this to happen. It takes courage, but in the long run, it is worth the discomfort. As part of your preparation, be prepared for the predictable circumstances that will arise a conflict with a specific relative dad or mom bringing their new partner to the party or whatever else.

Prepare for what you'll say and how you'll handle those situations. One option is to avoid the situation altogether. Another is to prepare polite yet from talking points. So you're not taken by surprise. It doesn't have to be complicated. It just takes some forethought. Lastly, boundaries need to be enforced.

If you tell someone this is the boundary and they break it, there need to be consequences without them. They'll ignore your boundaries next time. Be ready to enforce any boundaries. You. Third communicate ahead of time. Make a plan for the holidays and tell your parents avoid spending time with both parents on the same day on Thanksgiving.

Perhaps you spend it with your dad on Christmas. Perhaps you spend it with your mom, but the day following each holiday, you can have us. Second celebration with the other parent. This prevents you from becoming emotionally exhausted, which you have a duty to avoid. Similarly, you have every right to express your feelings to your parents.

Be honest and tell them your needs. You can say, I love you, but it can be really hard around the holidays to please you both and not offend you. I need you to understand my decisions, my boundaries, and understand that the tension in our family makes it difficult to enjoy the holiday. Set expectations well in advance.

So nothing comes as a surprise. Tell both parents when you'll see them and for how long, if you live at home, this can be extra difficult. You might not be able to leave a party, but even in that case, communicate what you are and are not comfortable with. Do what's within your power to enforce those boundaries.

Even if they won't respect them. In some cases, you may even need to take a break from visiting certain family members during the holiday. And may benefit from being around other families to remind you that there can be stability that you long for. And so deserve fourth, take owner. While you didn't cause the situation, you can choose how to handle it.

Well, even amidst the drama intention, you can choose your response, do what you can with what you're given, avoid being the victim who blames and never takes responsibility for what's in their control. One way to take ownership is to plan distractions from the drama, such as watching a movie, spending time with friends, playing games or another wholesome activity that relieves some of the tension and.

Avoid isolating yourself for extended periods of time. As much as you can taking a walk to get a breather is okay. Locking yourself in your room for hours at a time is not fifth. Be virtuous in each situation. Do your best to respond well. Be diplomatic, be the better person. Apologize when you make mistakes.

Keep in mind that your parents are learning to navigate the holidays too. So give them some grace, do your best to be kind loving and polite, but don't be a door. If someone mistreats, you stand up for yourself, play your role in keeping the peace. But remember that you can only play a part you're not solely responsible for keeping the peace.

Most of all, do your best. Not to allow other people to determine your peace and happiness, make the decision to keep your calm, whatever the circumstances in difficult moments, or remember to take a breath. Pause to think and detach from the intensity of the emotions before you act by doing that, you'll make better decisions about what to do and say next sixth, make a plan to take care of yourself.

The holidays are emotionally exhausting. If you don't take care of yourself, you might end up doing something you'll regret and in an attempt. To fill your needs. Think ahead. About the difficult emotions you might feel, have one or two ways to calm yourself if you're anxious or to experience some joy. If you feel down and depressed, see question 14 about coping in healthy ways.

Instead of unhealthy ways, having a plan goes a long way. When you feel out of sorts because of the tension, drama, or sadness around the holidays, in the middle of parties or gatherings, don't hesitate to step away for a breather. If you need to leave, then do. Whatever you do allow yourself to feel your feelings work through them, pay attention to them and learn from them, ignoring them or stuffing them away only makes things worse.

The only way to heal and grow is by moving through those negative and messy emotions. Ask someone to be there for you during the holidays. So you can talk about it all. Don't do this alone. Seventh focus on the celebration, focus on the meaning of the holidays. For example, on Thanksgiving, reflect on what you are grateful for.

Even in the worst situations, you can always find something you are grateful for. It's so easy to lose the meaning of the holiday in the midst of the drama intention, but refocus when needed. Appreciate the little things, especially the food, your siblings, or your pets, keep in mind that you might need to lower your expectations for the holidays.

Unfortunately, you might not feel the same joy, safety and security with your parents anymore. In the midst of that, try to focus on the celebration and the meaning of the holiday eighth, ask God for help. Again, don't do it alone. God sees your pain. He wants to be there for you. Let him during that family party, when you feel.

Tell Jesus about it, know that he doesn't want it to be this way. Either trust that he is not finished with you or your family while the divorce or separation is devastating, God can bring good even out of evil. Perhaps you'll never see that in your family, but you can see it in your own life trust that he isn't finished with you lean on him when things are difficult during the holidays.

Ninth learned from it. All, whatever happens in life, there are always lessons to learn. See it as an opportunity to become a better, stronger person. Think about the lessons you can use in the future, especially to build your own family holiday traditions in your family might die because of the divorce.

That's hard to swallow. But remember that you can start your own traditions, especially if you have your own family or soon will a new tradition might look like spending time with another family or friend. If your family is toxic, be intentional about who you choose to spend time with. Ideally choose a family that models what it means to be a true and good family, the kind you want for your future and making your own traditions think back on what you loved or what you missed out on, make a list of things you wanna do for your own kids.

If you simply drift through the holidays without a plan or preparation, then it's likely the drama tension and dysfunction will overwhelm you. Given that it's completely understandable to dread the holidays, but there is a better way. Use the tips above to reduce the drama and enjoy the holidays. Again, have hoped that you're not doomed to experience holiday distress forever.

You can experience the peace and joy you desire during the holiday season. For more tips on navigating the holidays. Listen to episode 32 of the resort podcast at ReSTOR. Dot com slash 32. If you'd like a private place to talk about the challenges that you face during the holidays, join our private and free online community.

It's built for people like us. It'll help you feel less lonely. Get advice from people who've been through your experiences and challenge you to grow into a better. Stronger person join in three easy steps at restore ministry.com/community.

One question that you can think on is what can you do today? To prepare for the holidays. Think back through the tactics that you heard in the episode, and then make a simple plan to put them into action. As I mentioned, the content you just heard is from my new book, which is live on Amazon. It's titled it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce.

The sad truth is that for a lot of teens and young adults who come from broken families, The most traumatic thing that they've endured is their parents' separation or divorce, but nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and problems that stem from their family's breakdown. And without that guidance, they continue to feel alone and struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationships, struggles, and so much more.

And I experience these problems firsthand. I know what it's like. It shouldn't be this way. It's not your fault. My new book is an answer to that problem. It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges. By teens and young and adults who come from broken families, such as after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted and adequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me.

How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage and so much more? The content itself is based on research, expert advice and real life stories. After reading, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents' divorce or separation, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems.

They'll learn healing tactics to help them feel whole again, how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions about their future. To buy the book or get the first chapters free. Just go to restored ministry.com/books.

Again, that's restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. Or just click on the link in the show notes. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 59. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe, but most importantly, if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' separation, divorced, broken marriage, share this podcast with them, especially if they're struggling at this time of the year with all the holidays, go ahead and share this podcast with them.

And always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel hold again and become the person that you were born to be.

#058: Forgiveness: The Secret to Healing and Freedom | Fr. John Burns

Forgiving someone that wounded you is difficult. Not only is forgiveness difficult, it is often over simplified and misunderstood. 

That’s why we interviewed an expert on forgiveness, who happens to be a child of divorce. In this practical episode, we address:

• What exactly is forgiveness?

• How to forgive through the four stages of forgiveness

• Why forgiveness is good for you and unforgiveness is bad for you

• How does compensation or reparation factor into forgiveness?

• Practical advice to forgive someone who feels impossible to forgive

Buy Fr. John’s books: Lift Up Your Heart: A 10-Day Personal Retreat with St. Francis de Sales | Adore: A Guided Advent Journal for Prayer and Meditation

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)

Links & Resources

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Forgiving someone who's hurt. You can be extremely difficult. It might be one of the most difficult things that any of us can do, but not only is forgiveness difficult. It's often oversimplified and misunderstood. That's why today I interviewed an expert on forgiveness who dedicated his doctoral research and dissertation on that very topic, healing through forgiveness.

He also happens to be a child of divorce, but this isn't just an academic interview. It's very practical as well. In this episode, we address the question, what exactly is forgiveness? We also talk about how to forgive someone using the four stages of forgiveness. We break down exactly how forgiveness is good for you and how unforgiveness.

Is bad for you. And we answered the question, how does compensation or reparation factor into forgiveness? We hit on some common myths about and barriers to forgiveness. And my guests offer some practical advice to taking steps or forgive someone you feel like it's just impossible to forgive really amazing stuff.

So people listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents, divorce, separation, or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode. Eight. And you might have heard that my new book is live on Amazon. It's titled it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce.

And the problem is this for a lot of teens and young adults, the most traumatic thing that they've endured is their parents' separation or divorce, but nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and the problems that stem from their. Breakdown. And without that guidance, they continue to struggle and feel alone in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles and so much more.

And I experienced these exact same problems and it really shouldn't be this way. My book, it's not your fault is an answer to that problem. It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by teens and young adults who come from broken families, such as after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned.

Unwanted inadequate and even rejected is something wrong with me. What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life events? How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage and so many more questions? The content itself is based on research, expert advice and real life stories.

And after reading, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents, divorce or separation, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems. They'll learn healing tactics to help them feel whole again, they'll learn how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions about their future.

And if you wanna buy the book or get the first chapters free, just go to restored ministry.com/books. Again, that's restored ministry, ministry, singular. Dot com slash books go there and just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is father John Burns. He's a priest for the archdiocese of Milwaukee and author of the bestselling book.

Lift up your heart a 10 day personal retreat with St. Francis DeSales. He was ordained in 2010. He has served as an associate pastor and pastor in Milwaukee, as well as an adjunct professor of moral theology at the sacred heart seminary in school. Of theology. He completed a doctorate in moral theology at the Pontifical university of holy cross in Rome in 2019, his doctoral research focused on the theology of healing through forgiveness.

Father burns speaks at conferences, preaches missions, and directs retreats. Throughout the country. He works extensively with the sisters of life and St. Mother Teresa's missionaries of charity and has given retreats conferences and spiritual direction for the sisters in Africa, Europe, and the United States.

Now quick disclaimer, obviously father John Burns is a Catholic Christian. He's a Catholic priest, but this interview, this conversation is not solely a religious conversation. In fact, the basis for so much of his research is actually based on secular science. And so if you don't believe in. You're totally welcome here.

In fact, I'm so happy that you're here. As I say, often, this show is not just for Christians. It's for anyone who comes from a broken family and anyone who loves or leads someone who comes from a broken family. And I know for a fact that you will benefit from this conversation, even if you were to take the God parts out of it.

So my challenge to you is to just listen with an open mind, and I know you're gonna benefit from this conversation with that. Let's dive into the, I.

Father, Johnny Burns. Thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate you taking the time. Yeah. Good to be with you. Joey's super grateful. I know you've done so much research and have given talks and forgiveness and topics related to it. So wanted to start with a basic question and that is what exactly is forgiveness.

We throw that term around, but I wanna really define what we mean when we say forgiveness. Yeah. I mean, that's like, that's one of the great questions of our day, I think, because whether you're a believer or a nonbeliever, as you look around in the world and in your own heart, like there's tons of stuff that's really broken.

And, uh, a lot of places where we're carrying a lot of bitterness and it seems like there's just no way forward. And I think a lot of people are realizing in a lot of different fronts that, that revenge isn't working, trying to get back what was taken away, isn't working. And there has to be another way.

Forgiveness is that other way? Like, uh, maybe at the highest level, we could just define forgiveness as a pathway, through all the bitterness and pain we carry from all that's been done to us, a pathway through this different from seeking vengeance, punishment and revenge. It's letting go of a debt. It has a lot of components that, that touch upon all the emotions that also touch upon our faith.

If we believe in the Lord, but forgiveness really ultimately is a gift. It's giving something to someone who doesn't deserve it in place. What would be a more maybe innate or native response to, to punish them or to hurt them instead? Absolutely. And there there's so many stories. Um, I, I think of the count of Monte Christo coming to mind how, you know, where, where you see these people seeking revenge, going after revenge and in the end, it always comes up short.

It doesn't give the fulfillment that maybe it appeared to give, but I think people who maybe feel that inclination towards revenge, They, uh, may look at forgiveness and say, uh, father, like that, that's just weakness. What would you say to someone who says that forgiveness is weakness and maybe the appropriate response would be punishing someone?

Yeah. I mean, that's essentially for guys, that's like one of our biggest struggles is the thought that if I forgive, I'm letting someone off the hook or I'm condoning what they did, I'm giving them permission to keep doing. And, uh, that makes good sense. I get where that comes from. I've had to deal with that myself in a number of spots, pondering that and, and really admitting that that actually is an, an impediment to authentic forgiveness or forgiveness from the heart in the end.

It's to my mind, it's harder. To, to restrain the impulse, to strike back, to think through what my response will be, whether it be an instantaneous response or something, that's a response. Something happened a long time ago to, uh, to pause, to be strong enough, to not have to just punch back right away and then decide what's the best thing to do.

And if I decide. To offer kindness in place of bitterness and rage. If I decide to offer blessing and place of curse, that's more demanding. Uh, Thomas Aquinas, when he talks about forgiveness, he says, well, mercy, in general, he says, mercy is not skipping justice or forgoing justice. It's giving something more than what justice demands.

Kind of use a base example. Like if, if you owe someone a hundred, um, dollars who says denari to give them a hundred more, doesn't deny justice. It goes beyond justice. Justice is to repay to give something to someone who doesn't deserve it's surpasses Justice's balance. And in fact, Really disassembles the heart of the recipient.

I mean, when you hurt someone, you expect them to lash back. When you, when you throw an insult at someone, you don't expect them to be kind. The response of forgiveness, the merciful response is like disarming and almost confusing. Sometimes when, when we see someone forgive and. That really opens up a pathway in the heart to like, uh, maybe there's a different narrative here.

Maybe there's a different way. That makes so much sense. And it, so basically what you're saying is it takes so much strength. It takes self-mastery in order to respond to the brokenness in alive to the hurt that other people have caused us. And it makes me think of, uh, a phrase that Victor Frankel wrote in man searched for meaning.

He said between stimulus and response, there is a space and that space is our power to choose our response. And our response lies our growth and our freedom. And we're gonna get into freedom, but I love that line. I think it's so beautiful. And it's essentially what I hear you saying is that space between stimulus responds becoming a master of that space and really controlling how we respond.

Um, it takes so much strength. That's not weakness. Yeah. You know, virtue, uh, is key. I know you've done a show in the past on virtue. We really define forgiveness as virtuous activity, which isn't easy is demanding, uh, but also makes us better. And virtue requires, uh, an element of deliberation for its perfection.

Like we need to think through, uh, the virtuous person is always is pondering. What's true. And what's good. And what's fitting and what's appropriate. All that's demanding, which is why forgiveness isn't easy, but also it's strong. It's stronger. And for the believer really to look at the cross of Jesus Christ, that's where we see ultimately the, the strength of forgiveness.

You know, the cross Christ has all the power in heaven on earth to, to sweep away those who have betrayed him, uh, have unjustly treated him, have brutally abused him and are murdering him. He's in the midst of being murdered on the cross. And instead of striking back retaliating, even just with words, but also with deeds, instead of all that he chooses forgiveness and that's much more demanding, but also, uh, again, more captivating and also, um, this assembling of the patterns of evil that are just riving around everybody's heart forgiveness, unlocks that it opens up a pathway that that is, is strong.

That's powerful. I wanna shift over to the practical steps of forgiveness. So what exactly is the process of forgiving someone? What does that look like? Yeah, so here's where I, I, uh, most of the work I've done for the last several years in forgiveness is relies upon a, a secular psychologist named Dr.

Robert Enright. He works at the university of Wisconsin and is kind of considered the guru. They call him the guru of forgiveness. I think time magazine called him that, and he basically developed a process for, for forgiveness in the therapeutic setting. Um, that leads people from anger and bitterness and resentment to forgiveness with all kinds of emotional release and positive physical, psychological benefits.

The reason I love his work is because it actually all adheres and coheres perfectly with the Christian framework with what's said in the scriptures with what's said in the, in the theological tradition, especially in Thomas Aquinas. So what he's doing is effective everywhere. It doesn't need to be used only by believers, but, but what he's doing out in the secular setting outside of the framework of faith can be brought into the framework of faith and, and actually expanded upon significantly with the help of prayer, grace, the guidance of the holy spirit, sacred scripture, all these things, but.

To start with kinda the secular and right. Uh, he just lays out these four stages and really the first phase has to be admitting that we're angry. . And when he, when I first read that one of his books, I was like, I don't know, is that really the first step to forgiveness admitting that I'm angry and I sort of rebelled against that idea.

I thought there must be other manifestations, but when you're honest about it, anger, and it may not be exactly angry. It might define it as like, um, a bitterness, a, a heavy sorrow. Vengefulness hatred, spite ranker. We have all these different words, but there's a manifesting emotion. That's towards someone else who's hurt us.

And, and the first step is just kind of looking at that and being really honest about the heart, about the intensity of what's going on in the heart and just kind of getting a sense for. What's going on and why is it going on? When was I hurt? Uh, what happened when I was hurt? What did I start to think about as I was hurt?

How am I thinking about that now? How do I carry that? How intense is the pain right now? Has that intensity changed over time? Really? Just to get a, a good and honest. Awareness of what's going on within that's the first step of kind of uncovering the emotions and tons more. I can say about that if we want to get into practicals.

Um, but then after that we have to, this is the step two. We just have to admit that we're not actually doing okay. That on our own. We're not really able to survive under this intense emotion. We've tried to live with our anger or with our resentment, which kind of is the result of heavy anger. And it's just not working.

We can't make it go away, but it's also frustrating and agitating enough that we realize it's a problem. So in that step, step two, it there's a volitional moment that a, a choice that, that resides the level of the will, where we. I'm done, trying to do it the way that I've done it, whatever it is. And however I've been trying to do it.

I'm done with the old patterns because they're not making anything better. The bitterness just spreads. I'm passing it on to other people. I'm miserable. I mean, saints as well as psychologists. Now show us that. Sitting in that unresolved emotion leads to anxiety, depression, um, addictive behavior, all kinds of even heart disease.

It can agitate the inflammation that cooperates with cancer spread. So intense emotion that's unresolved is, is really dangerous. And, and so the second step is once we understand the intense emotion is to. I'm not gonna keep doing what I've been doing. I'm gonna choose a different way and that way is forgiveness.

And so it's basically just making a choice to move out of seeking vengeance, revenge, repayment, punishment, and saying, I choose another way. And that's an act of the will. We're able to do that. Even if the emotions are tense, we have freedom of will. We are able to assert our wills and say, I choose another way.

Even if I am not excited about. My emotions are kind of running in the opposite direction. Maybe every direction I can still make an act of the will. I choose something different and that different way is forgiveness. So that's step two, step three then is kind of working on forgiveness and there's all kinds of elements to this piece that this is definitely the longest of the steps.

But what we do is we start to sort of ponder the situation as it happened, as we remember it and notice how we're remembering it. We start to ask questions about like, what was the person who hurt me? What was their life like at that time, what were they going through? What's their backstory. Um, and if I know them, typically, the people who have really hurt us are, are family members or friends.

And so we know a little bit of their backstory and the basic principle that we hear often in healing circles is that hurt people, hurt people. And so when people hurt us, The the pain usually can be traced back to love. Believe it or not, that might not seem immediately obvious, but it's either the deprivation of love that that was there or the withdrawal of love that was there, or the withholding of love that, that we needed to be there.

So this is often like parents who just weren't attentive. Uh didn't didn't come to us who didn't seek us out when we needed them. Didn't pursue our hearts. Didn't encourage us, strengthen us. Challenge us, love us when we fell. Um, there's a, there's an ache in the heart there that is a deprivation of love.

That leads us to the emotional intensity that we encountered in step one in step three, we're looking at like, okay, the person who withdrew love from me or deprived me of the love that I needed. What's their story. What was going on in their life? How did they experience love or how was love withdrawn from them?

So I'm seeking to understand. And even eventually be compassionate toward the people who have hurt me. Now, that's really painful obviously. And especially in like deeper traumas that doesn't come super quickly, but it's something we have to work at for the believer. This is where the holy spirit comes in as well, because often we can't see the backstory to another heart, but the Lord sees both hearts, the heart of the one who's hurt and the one who hurt.

And so the Lord can give us a certain sense of. His stance toward the other person, his stance of compassion for their own suffering and seeing that what they did, they did outta their own pain and outta their own brokenness, perhaps without a sense of how much it was gonna crush our hearts. And that softens a little bit that emotional intensity.

So we perceive the other, especially if we can, in the light of God, how God sees them, because they're as much in need of mercy as we are. And then we just begin saying, I forgive you, of course the words. And especially if we can invoke the name of Jesus there, that's really powerful. But then we kind of notice like, all right, when I say I forgive you, I don't feel it.

Uh, or maybe I've said shot up, forgive you a thousand times before. And it hasn't worked or nothing's come from that. What's going on underneath that. There's a lot more emotional layering that kind of has to be uncover. So we're seeking the truth in the third step, seeking to understand what actually happened, um, to assess maybe whether they were remembering it correctly and then the truth of, of where they were coming from as that happened.

And then, um, looking just eventually that the third step culminates in, in offering a gift to the person who heard us, and that could be very concrete, but it also just maybe to be practical and, and to caution everybody. Forgiveness does not have to be interactive immediately and maybe it never will be interactive.

So what I mean is in the case of, for example, uh, an abusive spouse or parent who is a danger to us currently, we don't need to rush back into a relationship that's going to further hurt us and maybe even put us at risk in order to forgive forgiveness. First happens in the. It's a release of all of that emotional intensity and a turning of the heart toward the other end blessing, as opposed to in curse, which is the previous stance that happens within first and foremost.

And so this work is unfolding within us. And then may eventually lead us to an encounter, an interaction even eventually to reconciliation, and maybe we'll come back to how important it's to distinguish forgiveness from reconciliation. So I say that because there needs to be some concrete culmination of an offering of a gift, but that doesn't need to be something that comes about through an interaction.

The gift of my heart, towards someone who hurt me might be the choice to. To offer prayer for them or offer sacrifice for them might be writing a note to them, even if it's a note that I never send, but a note in which I praise a couple of their gifts instead of focusing on, uh, how tremendously intense is the hatred I seem to have toward them, it might be going outta my way to do good deeds for them, whether they'll see them or not shifting my will basically toward Goodwill and away from ill.

And so the culmination there is where we can kind of check in on forgiveness over time. Like what's the gift I'm offering? Am I, is the gift getting better? Am I offering it more freely and more fully do I eventually want to be a blessing to this person? And when the answer to those questions starts to increase toward the good, I know that I'm, I'm forgiving a little bit more with each time.

And I mentioned that time and that process reality, cuz. Forgiveness doesn't happen quickly. And, uh, it also often has to be repeated many, many times because the virtues are acquired by practice and habituation forgiveness grows and is perfected with, with time with practice. So first three steps there, the last is really more reflective.

It's like looking back and DEC and discerning, like, okay, now that I chose this other way, What fruit is it bearing is my heart freer. What's that freedom like, and then how can I become an instrument of that freedom for other people? How can I recognize, especially that the evil that occurred has now become an actual avenue for my becoming a better person.

And this is a theological principle, especially that God is able to use evil to bring about good. That would not have been possible, had the evil not occurred. And again, the cross is our prime example. Fruit of the resurrection in life for all those who believe we actually delight in the cross, not for the evil itself, but for the fact that the father brought about some great, good through allowing his own son to suffer.

We've been allowed to suffer. It's not fair. However, when we persevere in goodness, and when we turn our minds and our hearts toward the truth, especially as believers, when we let grace and the holy spirit guide us here, we get better at life. We get freer, but also we become holier. We become saints and forgiveness actually is this pathway out of a tremendous darkness into the life of the light that we're called to, as those who seek to follow Christ.

So that's the fourth stage. We're just talking about embracing or discovering freedoms of forgivenesses freedom. Wow. There's so much there and it's beautiful. And the one word I would use to describe everything you just said is it's so hopeful because the alternative is just emptiness and despair and anger and bitterness and everything, you know, that you had mentioned before.

And so it's so beautiful to hear you kind of go through those steps again, which are based in scientific psychological clinical work, but also something that the church has found in maybe different language. So it all aligns, which is powerful, but it's so hopeful. It's so hopeful, which is beautiful. I would like to drill into them a little bit more if that's okay.

And I was curious, would you mind giving an example of maybe someone working through these steps with a particular harm? So. I can throw out an example, if you wanna use a different one, that's totally fine. So, uh, you know, the people listening right now come from broken families, the majority of them, and.

You know, maybe dad had an affair or mom was abusive or something like that. So any sort of situation like that I think would really help our audience to walk through these steps in a, um, more practical way. Not that what you said, wasn't practical. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I maybe to add a layer to what I said, a part of like what makes forgiveness work is, is just the acknowledgement first off, step one of our pain, but, but really the acknowledgement that.

I have a sort of reflex for revenge and, and basic sort of, um, evolutionary biologists, really point to the idea that if we don't have an instinct for revenge culture would not have survived through many of the war torn eras, like revenge is kind of built into us and, and we would see this even biblically of course, the I for an I principle of the old Testament, we just snap back and that's.

Sub rational that sort of occurs automatically. So most of the time when, when we've been hurt really badly, we're, we're stuck in this pursuit of revenge, this desire to avenge our, our, our hurts and, and that frames, uh, the way we approach people who have hurt us in ways, we often don't really realize, but we'll spend.

Years, sometimes decades waiting for that one conversation to finally get the words right. And tell 'em what they did or to, to punch them back. Like in my case, I there's a doctor who, um, gravely injured my father during surgery when I was a teenager and my dad was never the same. He was crippled paralyzed.

I had to couldn't work ever again. My parents ended up divorced and I spent like decades planning to meet this doctor and have my revenge praise, the Lord. It never happened. And we've got a bunch of really powerful stories in literature and in film showing us the fact that revenge actually never really satisfies.

Like if I had been able to, to punch that doctor, nothing really would've been put back, you know, Can't have my dad back the way that he was, the, the mistake can't be undone. Those things aren't going to be returned, but that revenge instinct is telling us that, that if we get back at them, everything will be okay again.

So we really need to think that through, but kind of before we partake of the forgiveness process and realize. Typically, what was done to us, can't really fully be undone. If something was taken away from us often, it, it can't be given back, but that's not despairing. Um, that's hopeful. What that is is that's letting go of a sort of instinctual response and choosing a more human response.

A survival response is prevention, forgiveness, more human responses like, well, what's the best way to become better at life. Um, to be more like Christ, to be more like an excellent man or. So in the case of like a parent who, um, has hurt us as kids, you know, a lot of the time I've, I've walked with people who like want their childhood back or want their family back.

And, and they won't put words to that, maybe that way, but they'll be like, you know, if only this wouldn't happened, then everything else would've been just fine. If dad wouldn't have left that mom wouldn't have had to deal with this. And my sister wouldn't have gone through that. And, and there's this pursuit, it's a childlike hope that, um, by trying to write things.

They can have back their childhood or they can have back what was taken away from 'em. And of course we know that's just not possible. We don't go back in time anyways, but, but often this is operat in our hearts. And so just needing to, to pause and be very respectful of our own hearts and be like, all right, look, this is, this is where I sit in this pain, but, but I'm also a old enough now to say, I need to think through another way here.

I need to let go of the pursuit of revenge, but I also need to be like, this is, this is just not working out. And I don't think even if I had that one conversation, I don't think I'd feel better because there's something more going on around the pain than just what they did. I've been sitting with it maybe for years.

I'm I'm bitter because I've been ruminating over what mom did or what dad said or didn't say. And so for them to say it or on say it, isn't gonna get rid of the rumination, isn't gonna get rid of the intensity. So again, that's all kind of around the first step. There is just acknowledging what all's going on and then choosing the different way we kind of covered that, but it would be like, you know, looking at.

Looking at your parent, let's say and saying for much of my life, I've wanted you to change what you did or, and this is just in your own mind and heart. You don't have to necessarily have this conversation, but looking at them and just deciding to be a, a mature person, if you're a grown up to be an adult, if you're, if you're a teenager to be like, I can, I can act like, um, someone of maturity here and step above my pain and be reasonable about what's the best thing to do here because I, for, and I what's the saying, right.

It makes the whole world go blind. I think it's Zach brown, but it's also Gandhi and it's all these other folks. It's, it's good. Saying. . And then in the understanding phase of the, the third phase, it's really, it's really testing our memories. Um, and so to maybe sidebar here, we have to get pretty used to remembering and, and assessing whether we're remembering well.

And then ideally even praying through our memories and asking like, okay, where's the intensity? Am I remembering correctly? Is there a better way to. And as I remember, where are the stops, the gaps, the skips, where do I notice that? Like, when I see that scene in my mind, my blood starts to boil. And when I see these things happen, my blood boils in the same way.

So maybe there's a connection. You know, like a lot of people who were in, in verbally abusive homes will, will trigger real easily. When someone starts to yell, it might have nothing to do with them, even it's background yelling, but it just causes this. Echo. And so learning to spot the echoes with our originating places of pain and tracing those roots back and saying, okay, in my memory, especially in this situation, trying to forgive, what, what did I start to believe about myself?

What did I start to believe about my mom or my dad or my siblings or my family? Where did certain untruths kind of coil around my heart and still make it hard to breathe because learning to remember, well, or even just notice in the story where there are GIS, uh, gaps or skips or, or dark places that's gonna equip us in the present moment to, to, to have a higher degree of self knowledge, the type of self knowledge that leads us to ultimately to self gift or to excellence.

We can't give ourselves away till we know what we're giving. And so searching our heart, searching our stories. Brings us into a more honest assessment of what's actually in there. And what's happened both around the wound we're confronting, but also just around the, the whole of our heart. And that kind of comes around this process of forgiveness to make it easier, to get concrete.

As we try to say, like, what is the charity? What is the kindness that could. Undo that which was done to me that makes me still so sorrowful, so angry, so resentful. So I'm not sure if I'm coming around with enough practicality there, I'm trying to kind of round out each of those steps. Yeah, no, that, that's fantastic.

And I think, uh, for so many people listening, they can relate so much to the example you gave of the, the situation with your dad that is so tragic and difficult to deal with. And it led to so many. So many other tragedies and the marriage of your parents and your own life. And so I can't imagine how difficult that's been to, to work through, but I think that this all makes so much sense and I love the encouragement you gave.

And, and I didn't think of this honestly, but before we did this interview, but it's so powerful how reflection is necessary to forgiveness. And I remember learning from, uh, a C. That neurobiologists have found that, uh, the act of reflecting on your story, just like you just said is actually healing on a neuro biological level.

It increases the neuro connectivity of our brain. So for everyone listening, if you think of your brain, like a big web it'll increase the connections, which in, in essence makes your brain healthier and it makes you better person, a healthier person, more whole person. And so, uh, in essence follow what you're saying is going through this process is very healing.

Which I know the people listening to the show. We, we want that we want that healing, which is amazing, connected to that. And you've mentioned it here or there. Why is this so good for you? Um, in a few words, why is forgiveness so good for you? Again, you've touched on this already, but I just wanna really hone in on it.

Unforgiveness is classically defined as a form of. It, it falls under the category of hatred and, and hatred never leads to anything. Good. Hatred is a vice and it's destructive it's consumptive. So even though we may not immediately think of the places where we have unforgiveness, as places of hate unforgiveness is a type of hatred.

It's where we're, we're throttling our enemy and demanding repayment. And again, especially sometimes an exorbitant repayment or a type of repayment that can't be had. So it's a kind of a futile posture in which we're very often stuck. I think it was Corey 10. Boom, who said to forgive is to, to let a prisoner free and to discover that the prisoner is me.

So, so it's liberating because we discover we're clenched up toward our enemies and self-defense posture, survival mechanism mode. And forgiveness is like a letting go of that, that posture of, of tension and, and a bound up heart putting down the weapons, you know, like not being just like on guard for the next encounter so we can go to battle.

And that all leads us to a certain lightness of heart. At ease of breathing. I mean like a lot of the people I've walked with in, in forgiveness will talk about being able to breathe again after they've forgiven and this living under a constriction prior to that, that they didn't even know about. So it's just liberating aside from increasing our excellence and making our, our lives more like Christ's life, because he's perfectly merciful.

It also frees us up from all kinds of bondage, emotional bondage that has, as you named even a neurological impact. The best way to think about healing is always integration or communion or union and wounding sin, uh, as division separation, fragmentation, our minds even are stories they're fragmented by these painful places is where we shut down or black things out or tried to skip over.

Healing reintegrates or reifies, reifies the, the, the narrative, our own story. Reifies our life into God's life. Reintegrates us into God. Reintegrates our own hearts ends the, the, the war within us thinking, you know, like St. Paul says, like, I. I do the things I do not want to do. And I do not do the things I want to do.

Healing just makes it easier to do the good things and avoid the evil things. And when we notice the other going on it's cuz there's some sin, not only our own, but that which has been inflicted upon us. So forgiveness is just this. I would argue essential and central pathway out of the, the death trap of our wounds.

We, we default to living there, but, but when we discover there's a way out, not only is it hopeful, but it's also totally liberating. And so it's gonna end the hatred. It's gonna end the binding force on our hearts. It's also gonna end all kinds of neurological complexity and physiological complexity. All of that, I would argue I'm a priest because forgiveness is actually what God called us to constantly through the scriptures and what Jesus Christ himself modeled on the cross.

As I pointed out before, this is the way of, of excellence. Reunites reifies and reintegrates that, which was put a under by all of the divisive force of sin wounds and brokenness. I wanna, I wanna shift to, uh, reparation and compensation. So you kind of touched on that a little bit there. Uh, and, and before, uh, I'm curious, how does reparation or compensation work with forgiveness?

A quick example, a few years ago, my wife was in a car accident, a woman. Hit her from behind at a stoplight, she was on her phone. Didn't hit her brake. Soon enough, this woman hit my wife, you know, caused her bunch of, uh, pain in her back in her neck, in her. And, uh, so in that scenario, I'm just curious, is it contrary to forgiveness to seek compensation?

For example, we ended up suing the insurance company because they weren't covering as much as they should have. And so maybe it's a different example because we're going after our company as opposed to an individual person. But I am curious, like how does that all work with when it comes to forgive?

Yeah. Yeah. So let's get philosophical for a second here. The, the injuries in injustice, right? Someone took something away that we needed or did something to us that was painful and not fair. We can articulate that though. It's, we're talking about love. What's owed to each other is love. That's the St. Paul letter of the Romans.

And so the deprivation of love is a form of injustice. And, and so justice is kind of at the foundation when, when injustice occurs. We, we become angry because anger leads us to want to put justice back in place. Anger is the, the, the emotion that actually protects the order of justice. So anger's really important.

Really good. Yeah. I argue that in the forgiveness process, the, the most integral and thorough way is that we treat. And restore justice wherever possible. So in the case of an injury, like you're naming where there was all kinds of medical need that followed upon the injury, the restoration of justice or restitution and reparation is gonna help carry the burden of those medical bills that are the result of the accident and injury that was, could have been avoided.

So justice. Fulfillment of justice disperses. A lot of the anger be precisely because anger is oriented toward the restoration of justice. What we just did very often discover is because we remember and we ruminate and we reflect it rarely stays pure anger. It becomes an EMBI type of anger, a vicious type of anger that we call resentment.

That's the stuff that even when justices restored doesn't go away. So prime example with your. Getting help on those medical bills might, um, have dispersed a tremendous burden. And technically speaking, there's an element of justice. That's restored there. However, your wife still agonizes at her own pain, uh, ruminates over what happened and is still upset about it.

And the reparation, the. Does not disperse a lot of that. That's because there's more going on than just a simple one to one desire that justice be restored because our hearts are complex. This is what happens to anybody who was hurt in their childhood and who spent a very, very long time wanting things to be fixed.

So let's say. Um, you're alienated from a parent and you haven't seen your dad in 20 years and you've spent 20 years weeping, bitter, angry, um, even violently angry at times, maybe stuck in addictions around it. If your dad just shows up and says, I wanna be back in your life. In technical terms, justice is restored.

Like in a way your dad should have been there. He wasn't, he came back, but there's a lot more stuff going on. So the pursuit of justice there and reparation might involve your dad talking through a lot of those things and apologizing, but also, um, offering to attempt to make it up. We just have to be very realistic that, that those reparations are not going to be the only thing that disperses the intense emotion, because in the end, the, the hardening hardening of a heart, um, and the demanding of, of a vengeance mindset or the slipping into a vengeance mindset, the only way out of that is either to punish.

And get things back or to be merciful. So if dad comes back in the equation or your wife, you know, receives a settlement that helps pay for the bills, there still needs to be a process of looking at the other person and noticing like, okay, even though there's some justice restored, what's happening in here and whatever residual intensity is unpleasant and, and typically resonates with something that we know is not good.

That's gonna be the place for forgiveness has to happen. So justice forgiveness, reparation, they come alongside each other. Most of the time in places of serious pain, justice is not gonna be the only thing. And reparation pertains to justice. There's gonna need to be a process of going beyond the dictates of justice and offering something back.

And that's mercy, that's kindness. That's charity, that's generosity. That's ultimately that's love where love wasn't deserved. That's what makes it such a stunningly beautiful witness. Yeah, absolutely. That makes so much sense. So basically what you're saying is it's a partial solution. Compensation is a partial solution, but there's so much more that needs to happen to free the heart of the person who is harmed.

Typically. Yeah. Especially when there's a lapse of time. I mean, if I steal something from you, that's yours and then I give it right back to you, your emotional response might be pretty quick. And the restoration of what was taken might very well disperse, all the emotion that's surrounded. Like why did he take that from me?

I needed that, or I thought I could trust him. But if that there's a delay there, if there's a time lapse, uh, you're gonna spend more time ruminating. And a lot of emotions are gonna build up that don't pertain justice, justice, and that's where forgiveness has to come into your own life. If you wanna be.

If you don't wanna have to carry these intense emotions longer than you should, and eventually get sick from them. I think there's a lot of misconceptions and misunderstanding and myths about forgiveness. I wanna touch on those now and perhaps one of them. That just came to mind is forgiving someone who maybe doesn't even know how they've harmed us.

I find that a lot in this ministry, you know, again, we're working with young people who come from broken families, and a lot of times the parents are very oblivious to the harm that they cause their children, partly because the children just don't wanna speak up about it, to hurt their parents. So we kind of hold everything inside, but a lot of times the parents are just oblivious.

They have no idea. How deep of a wound, they cause by, you know, having an affair by getting divorced by abandoning the family. And so how do you deal with a person like that? And if you would touch on some of the other common myths about forgiveness. Yeah. That's, that's a huge, huge, uh, question. And I would even add like a, a more subtle, but maybe more omnipresent situation of.

Um, a lack of attention from parents that often will carry a lot of wounds. So like in birth orders, you know, if a sibling is born just after you, typically, your parents had to shift their attention to that child. And so there's a lot of attention that you had that you no longer have happens, especially for firstborns.

And that deprivation of attention causes a huge ache on the heart. Of course, multiply that out. Someone who's a, a work obsessive parent or a parent who, who left the home, it's gonna be that same pain exaggerated, but, but they, the parent. In some cases didn't even do something wrong. Like you're needing to attend to a child, they're doing what they have to do toward the other child, but you carry in your own heart, a, a certain pain at no longer having the attention that you once had.

There's gonna be a lot of work to be done there around how you, how you kind of square off with that. How you notice again, what's happening within your own heart, and then how you start that forgiveness process. So we get into a lot of technicals or just different scenarios. The first though I'd say is to remember that forgiveness happens within first and foremost.

And so if a parent doesn't know what they did or isn't able to own up to it, I mean, man, one of the most crippling things I encounter is people that, that come and say they've been waiting for like decades for an apology. And they're just hoping, you know, like hoping they'll come back, acknowledge what they did.

And offer that apology. It's just so very often, not in their ability, their wheelhouse either. They didn't recognize what they did or they're just not able to own up to it because I, people are broken and the people who have heard us, you know, whether they realize what they did or not, they may not have what it takes to, to come to us and apologize.

So we just, in places where we're still waiting on an apology, I think the great freedom of what we are learning about forgiveness is like, we're not bound. By another's repentance. We're not stuck waiting for them to realize what they did that will certainly help, you know, in the case of, of someone who hurt us, especially a parent, if they recognize what they did and they're able to repent of it, that's gonna by leaps and bounds lead us forward in the process, but we're not stuck waiting for that.

And the great hope of forgiveness is it starts now the second you're hearing this and realizing that there must be another way. With or without your parent or your family member, knowing what they did and with, or without them being able to own up to it, those are all helpful things. But this is to you in your own heart to decide, to let go of a, of kind of a intentionally or an emotionally bound up place.

And you're in charge of your own heart. They're not in charge of your heart. It would be nice for them to come back into your heart and to be able to make things right. But you're not stuck waiting for that. And, and often we just have to kind of make that admission at the beginning. I would love it. If they'd apologize, they may not.

So I'm gonna get started on moving towards freedom here. And now second major thing it's related is, is that distinction of reference before between forgiveness and reconciliation. They're often confused and we think they're the same thing. And so we think I couldn't start forgiving, maybe my parents dead, so I can't talk to 'em and so I can never receive their apology off of apology back.

Um, maybe they're dangerous. Like I said before, maybe they're just outta the picture unreachable for reconciliations. When two people come back together, And it entails when there's been an injustice between them. It entails a change in the heart or the will of both parties. So if the other party's UN repentant unable to repent, or we can't interact with them, we can't reconcile with them because they have to choose to come back into the relationship when it's reasonable, when it's safe.

So that's a more mature place to go forgiveness points toward reconciliation and, and proceeds it. But they're different things we can forgive even without reconciling. And that's a great liberation for people who are either afraid of the person who hurt them, or they don't know how to get back in touch with the person who hurt them or doesn't seem like it's possible.

Forgiveness is, is inside of reconciliation and is its own thing happens in the heart might lead to interaction. Like I said before, Ideally, it leads to reconciliation, but even if it doesn't, that doesn't limit forgiveness is, uh, your, your capacity to entering into forgiveness that liberates you from all of the intense emotion.

Those are a couple of practicals. Let me know if you want me to dig in on some more. I know I'm talking a lot. I love this stuff. No, you're, you're so good at it. I'm learning so much. You should see all the notes that I'm taking. great. And, uh, no, that, that makes so much sense. And I'm sure there's so many myths that we can go into, but that's, that's really helpful.

Connected to that. And you touched on this a little bit already. What are some of the most common barriers? Again, a lot of what you said I would, would classify as barriers as well, but are there any other barriers that you would add that prevent people from really forgiving someone who hurts them? Yeah.

I think one of the ones that I've encountered a lot, especially, and we touched upon this, but the, the, the questions of justice and that, that concern that if I forgive I'm ignoring justice, I'm skipping over. I'm letting them off the hook. But just an important reminder to people is that what forgiveness really is, is the choice that I will no longer be the arbiter of justice.

So in the place of injury, I'm trying to restore justice emotionally. I'm, I'm wound up toward fixing the situ. But I'm also really close to the situation. So I'm, it's not easy to be unbiased. And there's a reason that court systems are set up at the judge and the jury should be unbiased observers of the situation, cuz you need someone unbiased to actually dictate and determine what is justice, what would be restored?

Well, what is punishment in the place of injury? I'm kind of fulfilling the role of judge and juror, but also sufferer. And that's a little too much to bear. So forgiveness rather than skipping justice forgiveness entails the choice to leave justice to someone else. In the case that you named before Joey, there might be a civil authority.

Um, there might be a in case of criminal activity, there is there the police, but also the courts and the prison system in the case of, of in general, like our belief in the Lord, Nobody escapes the justice of God. And so even if what someone did to me is not a crime, they're not getting away from the ultimate judge.

And so I'm just choosing to, to place the responsibility of justice off of myself, onto someone else. Who's able to administer justice, um, with a greater degree of freedom, but also, um, equanimity. So that's a liberating reality, I think, just to help people see they're not stuck, uh, skipping over justice.

That's so helpful. Yeah. Oh, totally. Please. Yeah. That's so helpful. Uh, this may not be related exactly to what you're naming, but, uh, what I found. Yeah. We can relate it to the, the specific question, but I just wanna touch on self forgiveness for a second, or this idea of, of being, of being kind to ourselves really, because I do think a lack of this posture toward ourselves, it impedes our own forgiveness.

So when we hate ourselves, We are typically, uh, gonna struggle with being good to other people, including the work of forgiveness and being kind to people who don't deserve it. That's a high degree of virtue. If we hate ourselves, we don't think we're capable of very much. Self forgiveness is a debatable construct.

Technically forgiveness is between two parties because justice is interpersonal, but in metaphorical terms, I can be angry at myself. From a younger moment. I can be angry at my teenage self or my, my youth self. When I did something horrible. I can hate myself for the things that I've done and hold myself in a type of metaphorical debt that is anger toward myself or manifests just like anger.

So a really important key in all of this is actually looking within us and noticing like, am. Angry at myself, resentful toward myself. Do I experience shame a sense of self hatred, um, destructive behavior toward myself, harming myself suicidal thoughts. These all revolve around a type of self hatred. That is going to completely impede the healing process, but also the forgiveness process.

So, uh, as a way out that whole forgiveness process I named before we can actually apply that toward ourselves. And what we basically do is in the, in this, the position of the enemy or the person we're confronting or hurt us, we're just seeing our younger self from an episode or a period in life where we realize.

We did things that we wish we wouldn't have done that are still hurting us. And we can actually end up, uh, being kind to ourselves through knowing what really happened through knowing ourselves, letting that story be REW woven together and actually loving ourselves. Cut me off if I'm talking too long, but a key on self-love here.

There's this self love is this principle. That sounds so new agey and kind of like self-help book wishy washy, but it's a deeply philosophical principle and theological one as well. When Christ is teaching the commandment of love, love got above all else and love your neighbor. As you love yourself. So the ability to love our neighbors is really rests upon our ability to love ourselves.

Thomas Aquinas would develop this and say like the love with which we love a neighbor is the love with which we love ourselves. We want good for people first by discovering what it is to want good for ourselves. He even says the good know themselves truly, and must truly love themselves. And that's been a key for me, self knowledge to know myself truly helps me to love myself.

When I love myself, then I'm able to make a gift of myself. And that's the only thing that actually fulfills me when I'm stuck in my world. I'm, I'm trapped. I'm unhappy. I feel crippled when I can make a gift of myself. I discover who I really am and the gift of who I am to other people. I have to love myself before that's gonna work well.

And I have to know myself before. I can love myself. So when we feel our heart's kind of agitated, even as these forgiveness conversations rise up, a part of the process is looking in and saying aim to the heart and saying, maybe I have to address a type of forgiveness toward myself, or a type of kindness toward myself that.

I have not yet exercised. And that might be like, what's at the very core of healing, perhaps more than anything else as that starts to happen, we let go of the choke, hold on ourselves. And eventually it's easier to translate that posture of kindness toward other people because we're exercising it toward ourselves.

First and foremost, tons to say on self-love and self-forgiveness, but really I've just seen it to be such a place where we come outta shame. We come outta hiding. We come into the freedom that, that our life calls us to, especially in charity. So good. It makes me think of so many things. I remember, uh, a phrase I heard about unforgiveness, uh, you know, unforgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.

I love that. And in this case, Applies to yourself. It's like doubly painful and it's just gonna hurt all around. And I've personally struggled with this too. Just having made mistakes in my past, especially when it comes to sexuality, unless it's been hard. Uh, it's been very hard to forgive myself, even though I've sought God's forgiveness to people.

I've heard their forgiveness. It's not an easy thing. And I think, I think you said that so well that often, maybe this is at the core of our inability to forgive other people and to truly heal because we're so busy, just punishing ourselves. And I see this a lot with people, you know, we work with who come from broken families in one way or another.

They they're often just punishing themselves. And it's so painful to watch and watch. And sometimes it's because of things they've done or sometimes their punishment, um, in, in a sort of strange way, which I know you'll understand, this is an attempt to punish someone else. And so there's a lot, there. It's some deep psychology, but.

I, I think that is so, so helpful. I'm glad you brought this up and we're just gonna have to have you back to talk about this whole idea of self love and self forgiveness, because, but what I've encountered with a lot of people, especially in the, the Christian world is that, uh, self-love seems selfish and that's not what you're saying.

You're saying no, that there's actually an appropriate ordered way to love yourself. And, uh, and I think that's so important. I wish we had more time to go into all these things. Uh, I do wanna get your advice for someone who's really struggl. To forgive someone, what what's like one thing that they can do to, to move toward forgiving someone who's hurt them.

They just haven't been able to, to forgive. Yeah. So the one great key there is just to start small, like when we're really you're naming someone who's like really struggling with pain towards someone, don't start with the big wounds and don't start with the biggest people as it were. Who hurt you? The people who hurt you the most.

That's gonna, that's kind of a recipe for frustration and even failure. If forgiveness really is virtuous activity, and it really is a set of habits that we learn and we get better at over time. We gotta start with the small things. First learn those habits. It's just like why we got training wheels on our bikes, why we learn to swim and the shallow end, we just have to kind of start small practice, learn how to go through these steps.

Learn what happens in our heart as we go through them. And then adjust our posture toward the person in those bigger places. So if there's one person you're thinking about through this whole show who just really, really hurts, you maybe make a list of all the ways they hurt you, cuz you're gonna have to confront each of those ways.

Cuz each of them is, is provoking an emotional response and then start with the smallest one, start with the one that hurts the least and just practice moving out of ill will into Goodwill and offering some sort of gift and repeat that a few times. Get your heart kind of used to it and then move up to the next one.

And the next one and the next one until eventually. Found yourself letting go of some of that bitterness in each of the ways that they hurt you. Uh, of course, as well for the Christian, this is the activity of God in us. Forgiveness is, is grace is, is, is something that God helps to achieve within us. And so to pray first that God would go and forgive our enemies, that he would soften their hearts and that he would give us, uh, a heart like his, toward them.

He who sees them in mercy and, and not in condemnation and wants them well, wants them saved. To believe that that the Lord has done this first and he'll lead us to it and he'll do it within us. And he us how to do it ever more perfectly. Father John, you are the man. If people wanna follow you and buy your books, tell us a little bit about, uh, what you've written and how they can get those books and follow you.

Yeah. A couple books from Ava, Maria, press one is a personal retreat just on getting serious about the Lord. Another is a guide to advent that's coming out or just came out right now. It's a daily reflection journal. My dissertation on forgiveness. Isn't published, it's published, but not publicly published.

I'm working on just finding someone to, to brush it up for Amazon. Self-publishing just so you can buy it, um, at an easy form and I'm working on another book on forgiveness on this, a simpler book. Just because it's, it's such an important theme and we've got a lot of resources now, but that's not done yet.

Um, social media app, father, John Burns father spelled out I'm on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook. I'm kind of a passive user of social media on there, but I, I don't do too much, but you can find me and you can reach me that way. You just gotta be patient, uh, in my response time, cuz I'm, I'm really slow at getting back to people.

It's place. I need to ask forgiveness all the time. Both of us. Thanks for saying that. I wanna give you the last word here first. Thank you so much for coming on. Everything you said has been so helpful and just, I think so many people are gonna be chewing on this and re-listening to this episode. So thank you so much for your time, for your wisdom for, uh, yeah.

Your expertise for all the years, you've put into this and condensing it down into something simple that we can learn and act on, which is the most important thing. So, uh, kind of stepping back from forgiveness, I wanted to ask you. Uh, what words of encouragement would you give to someone who feels so broken, who feels stuck in life because of the breakdown of their parents' marriage and their family?

What encouragement advice would you give? Yeah. I mean, just take hard and take hope is the word that, um, that comes as you're just even asking that Joey, like, I, I love being a priest and I love the work that I get to do with people and, and watching the fact that every time God comes to encounter us, We get better.

Like he lifts us up out of our darkness. The beginning of John's gospel, the darkness just can't overcome the light. And, and so just to, to, to know of the light, to believe in the light and to look to the light and notice that where we feel stuck and trapped, we're typically stuck kind of obsessing over the pain, the darkness, and we're staring kind of inward and stuck, um, homo in kuvaas man turned in upon himself.

The way of the believer, the way of, of the excellent man from Aristotle's categories. Is of, of self gift of looking to the horizon and of hope. And so just take hope. Uh, the story does not end in darkness does not end in our pain. It ends in, in the triumph of the good, because the good is stronger than the evil that was there.

First, the light is strong, the darkness and, and it will overcome. So take hope, look to the horizon, notice where you're stuck, staring inward break outta that, uh, begin, um, to, to beg for the gift of hope, especially from our Lord. And then just trust that you're listening to this and whatever stirred in your heart is moving in your heart for a reason.

And that is the beginning of the pathway forward. I come back to that place and set a foot on it. It's it's hard work. Uh, believe me, I I've seen so many people terrified at the beginning of the process of forgiveness, but the hard work is worth it. It's so worth. We become better. We become freer. We come to life.

So whatever's moved in your heart in, in this time. We've shared thanks for coming alongside and, and take heart in the fact that the movement within you is, is the first invitation into this new way, a movement upward outta the darkness. And, and it's a beautiful way. I promise.

So good. There was so much good content there. Honestly, I'm gonna have to go back and listen to the interview myself, and I'm the one who conducted it. So I invite you to do the same, especially if that was a lot to, to chew on. But one question you can think about to just help you make this a little bit more practical in your life is who do you need to forgive?

Who do you need to forgive? Maybe just identify one person, maybe that's your parents, maybe it's someone else who, who really hurt you. And then a second question is this, what's the smallest step that you can take this week to begin that process that we discussed. What's the smallest step and then just do it.

Forgiveness doesn't happen overnight. It happens through baby steps taken consistently over time. And so get after it, start doing it again. A reminder that my new book, it's not your fault can be purchased on Amazon. You can access that through restored ministry. Dot com slash books, or just click the link in the show notes.

The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 58. Hey, thank you so much for listening. We do this for you, and if this has been useful, feel free to subscribe, but more importantly, if you know someone who's really struggling from their parents' divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them and always remember you are not alone.

We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#057: How Alcoholism Broke My Family Apart | Kendra Posch

Alcoholism is a major cause of dysfunction in so many families. That was certainly true for our guest’s family.

In this episode, she shares how alcoholism played a pivotal role in the breakdown of her parents’ marriage and family. We also discuss:

• Why she kept a packed bag that was always ready to go under her bed at college

• What she’d say to her parents if they were listening to this episode

• How she truly desires a good relationship with her parents, especially her estranged father

Share Your Story

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Kendra’s story: Sea of Confusion

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As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Alcoholism is a major cause of dysfunction. So many families. And that was certainly true for my guests and her family. Today. In this episode, we talk about how alcoholism played a pivotal role in the breakdown of her family and her parents' marriage. We also discussed why she kept a packed bag that was always ready to go under her bed at college.

She shares what she'd say to her parents. If they were listening to this episode, we also talk about how she truly desires a good relationship with her parents, especially her estranged father. And we touch on the strange dynamic she's felt in relationships going between fierce independence to the point where she doesn't let anyone in.

And then the other end of the extreme, where she has an overreliance on people to the point of an unhealthy attachment on that person. This is a solid conversation. I'm so excited to share with you. So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 57. My guest today is Kendra posh. Kendra is a nonprofit director who was born and raised in Northern Minnesota.

She attended Ave Maria university in Florida, and she now lives in Denver, Colorado. Kendra has a heart for the work that ReSTOR does and for true authentic relationships, she holds her family and friends near and dear, and can also be found in the mountains or flagging down a plane for her next adventure.

Kendra's actually a family friend and fun fact. She was the first person to submit a story on ReSTORs blog her story on ReSTORs blog years ago. And so I'll tell you at the end of the episode, how you can. Submit your store, if you wanna share yours, but for now here's my conversation with Kendra,

Kendra posh. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Joey, I've been looking forward to this. We've been friends for a while. Our families are friends. And so I always joke when people come on this show, they always talk about like the darkest, most difficult things in their lives, but there is so much hope which we're gonna get to, but let's start with the more difficult things.

How old were you when your parents separated and divorced? Yeah. Broad timeline. Parents were separated when I was 14 divorced when I was 17 and then gotten in enrollment when I was 22. Lots of different points. So this dragged on for years. Yeah. And it still affects me to this day. And here I am at 27, which we're gonna get into.

So if you would, what exactly happened between your parents? What happened in your family that caused everything to fall apart? So this is the hardest story ever, but short, right? Uh, we did an intervention for my dad's alcoholism, my freshman year of high school fall. And he went to treatment. It went well, everything seemed to be looking up.

It seemed to be the next step for our family. Right. This is a way to have more engagement with each other. This is a way to move past some hurts, et cetera. Mm-hmm um, but then bam, things were turned upside down. I didn't, it didn't go well, it didn't, uh, he went to treatment. Okay. Then he left the treatment center and went on a war path for lack of a better word.

He wanted a separation. Um, his whole extended family got involved. Um, Our small town got involved. oh boy teachers were involved at school. It became a really huge convoluted mess. Mm-hmm um, and I really just didn't know which way it was up. And so if people know anything about high functioning, alcoholics, you know, that first stage when you're approached by your family, you're forced to confront your addiction, um, to whatever substance it is to just face it to face it.

It's scary. Right. And so that first stage a problem, right? That's like the 12 steps. Correct. And that first stage is denial. You don't even know I am lying. Totally. That's what they say it is. And my dad, that's why he went on a war path. Right. He didn't want to admit he had a problem and he wanted to point out everyone else's problems.

Mm-hmm and his focus was taught in my mom and we were all caught in the crossfire. Mm dang. Right. And I know that all of his siblings stepped in and the extended family stepped in because they cared about him. Totally. It just seemed like. They circled the wagons, right? Mm-hmm but they left us on the outside, who we were branded enemy.

Right. We had to choose a side. And if we chose Iran side, you were cut off. So you were seen as the villain. Absolutely. Like it's my fault, right? Yeah. I'm a product. My mom is a villain, but I'm her evil sidekick. Gotcha. Yeah. Which, I mean, it's never okay for family members to do that. Um, but something similar happened in my family, you know, there's everyone picks sides when this sort of thing happens.

And if you even give any sort of indication that you're on one side, like if you're on dad's side or you're on mom's side, then the people on the other side see you as again, an enemy and they want to attack you. And I think family members end up doing things that they normally wouldn't do just because it's such an emotional dramatic situation.

Absolutely. And so it, it turns really, really messy, really, really quick. And it was so surprising. It seemed to be so abrupt, right. This change in relationship, this change in interacting with each other, there are a lot of things that I never knew. Someone could do to someone that they loved and yes, it's misguided, but that is me speaking as a 27 year old, not speaking as a 14 year old, that was caught up in this can't imagine so quickly thereafter it was courts.

Right? My mom and dad were in court, fighting over custody, fighting over all of these things, right. Entering into the preliminary stages and litigation of divorce. I don't super know what happened in that regard. My perspective was court ordered counseling, lots of different counselors court ordered visitation with my dad.

I was the one that had to pack my suitcase every other weekend and go and spend it with him. Right. Totally. And every single time it was am bushes by different people saying, choose a side, choose a side. Right. Mm-hmm he doesn't have a problem with. Mm, there it divorces fine. Kendra. What's the big deal.

It's normal. It's normal. It's accepted. Yeah, it should be good. It's it's a way out, right? Isn't this better than them fighting all the time. Mm-hmm mm-hmm those are the typical talking points of yeah. People who don't really understand the lasting impact and often devastating impact of the breakdown of your family, of the breakdown of your parents' marriage.

Exactly. And, um, to me, my Catholic faith is really important and what the Catholic church teaches about divorce totally at odds with how my parents raised me. So seeing my dad flip on all these things that we were brought up in mm-hmm was also so disorienting. Right. And you didn't know which way it was up.

When I look back on that time and I try to place myself in those high school years, it's, it's difficult. I can't remember good times versus bad necessarily. I recognize that like my brain blocked out so much because I was in survival mode. Totally. So I think, oh, what happened when I was 16? shoot. I don't know.

I remember three big fights with my dad. Mm. I remember a really good time at a piano recital. Okay. But I remember a lot of negative times. Yeah. So then my senior year of high school, um, my mom asked, Hey, I know you're going into your senior year. I think it's time we move. Right. We were in a small town of 5,000 and you're still doing visitation at this point.

We're still doing some visitation at that point. We were also doing, um, Tuesday night dinners with my dad. Okay. Okay. It was supposed to be a quote egg that I gave, right. From the counselor. You ought to do this. Your father loves you, but they were never fruitful. yeah. Right. It was just, how can I get you to see my side?

Mm-hmm it wasn't how was school today, right? Yeah, there was no, there was no building of relationship, which was so difficult and hard because from what I knew, my dad and I were close prior to this. Right. Yeah. And, and you desired that relationship again with him. Is that right? I do. Yeah, you do now. And you, did you at that point too?

Or was it at that point still? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yep. Yep. Um, there was a set point during my high school years where an ambush was planned for lack of a better word. That's how I'm going to describe it. One of those Tuesday night dinners and we were supposed to, you know, be in public, we're supposed to be at restaurants.

And next thing I know my dad is driving us to his house and I'm a very, um, detail oriented person. I'm about timelines. I'm about schedules. And I was like, I know we have an hour and a half grin and Barrett Tundra. Then you can get back to your homework. Then you can get back to your daily life. Right.

Mm-hmm I'm 15. What else do I know? Right. So this is, yeah, my goodness. You know, been at almost a year of all this stuff. Mm-hmm and my dad ambushed me with one of his brothers. Oh boy, the ambush was supposed to be nice. It was supposed to be kind right. My uncle brought my favorite dessert. We're all gonna have dinner together, but this is a Tuesday night.

We drove 30 minutes to get here. I have a lot of homework I need to do. Right. I'm focused on what I can control and what my vocation is at that time. The student I'm a teenager. Yeah. Gosh. And when I wasn't cheerful and happy to see my uncle mm-hmm, keep in mind again, this isn't the use of circumstances I'm supposed to be in.

He's already breaking these rules. Right. You know, something's I know something's up. Yeah. I wasn't happy. I'm allowed to not be happy. I'm a moody teenager. Please gimme some slack. and my uncle ripped into me. Um, and my little sister was there with me. Just absolutely reduced. The two of us to tears, you know, dragged us up and down verbally and emotionally of just how awful we were.

You can't believe that we would ever do this. How is this loving? Aren't you Catholic? Don't you honor your father and mother. How is this happening? Actually, he admitted mother, but wow. And I sat there like crying and I just asked my dad, I said, how can you allow him to talk to me like this? Hmm. And he just looked at me and he said, you deserve it.

Someone needs to speak like this to you. And at that point I knew it's not my dad anymore. He's so wrapped up in his hurt. He cannot see through this mm-hmm right. And it was a turning point in terms of my trust with him. Mm-hmm before then I was really desiring a relationship. After that point, I recognized.

It is not possible. I do not know my father. I do not know what motivates him when it's obviously not my tears and to protect me. Mm that's so heartbreaking because he is supposed to fill that role. Right? Exactly. He is supposed to protect you and it makes sense that there would be such a fracture in your relationship with him, given those actions, the, the things that he did to you are allowed to be done to you.

And I think some people listening right now, we have parents listening right now. Right. And some of them might think, well, Kendra, you must hate your dad. And you hate your uncle. What would you say to them? Do you hate your dad? Do you hate your uncle at the time? I did. I was so hurt. I bet it was so hard, especially rightfully so.

Not just hurt for myself, but my little sister was 11 and I became mama bear during out during this whole process. and so on behalf of her too, I was angry. Mm-hmm and it just seemed so unjust. Right. I was also operating from what, as I said, a moody teenager here, right? Yeah. I didn't, I didn't have any reference point.

Makes sense. Right. And so it was, and now, again, in hindsight, like I learned more about alcoholism mm-hmm I learned more about high functioning alcoholics. I learned more about family systems and the time and space has helped me where I can see that I was hurt and I'm no longer angry about it. Okay. I'm sad still.

Right? I still wish I had a relationship. Yeah. But I also recognize that it takes two to have a relationship and you have to have that safety there. Totally. I, I, I think the reason I bring up that question about like, do you hate your dad or your uncle is because there's a big misconception among people who normalize divorce.

They think that when we talk about the harm of divorce and how people, you know, or separation, or just really dysfunctional marriage, they, they think that we're hating on our parents. When in reality, all we're trying to do is just help bring healing and growth. And in order to do that, we have to face the truth, which is often a very uncomfortable truth.

And that's where people, I think get angry and upset with what we're doing right now is because we're talking about something that's really difficult and makes people look in the mirror and say like, yeah, I wasn't the best person I did hurt these people. And so, right. We need to be able to hold both at the same time and say like, okay, this hurt.

But we also, ultimately, ideally I should say. Wanna have a good relationship with our parents. And that's what we're so focused at restored. We wanna help people to get to that point. It doesn't happen right away as you know well, but to anyone listening who is maybe thinking that no, we're here to help heal those relationships and make them stronger in the future, perhaps.

But we want that right. How can I love my parents when things are so messy? Mm-hmm right. It doesn't mean I don't love them. I love my father. Of course they do that doesn't mean I need to have a relationship with him when there is no safety there. Right. When he doesn't have the capacity to do so. Totally.

Right. His, his experience with that is. Very narrow and limited. And it's on his terms only. Mm-hmm that's not a relationship. No. And every healthy relationship requires boundaries. Like you can't, we, we did an episode on this. You can't have a healthy relationship without boundaries. Right? It's it's impossible.

And so what you're describing is like you've put boundaries in place to protect yourself, but also to protect the other person. That's what a lot of people misunderstand about boundaries is it's not just like this one way street. If someone's mistreating you by putting a boundary up and saying, no, I'm not gonna talk to you now until you change your behavior, you're actually helping the other person.

It's actually like an act of love to say that tough love, tough love, right? it's not something that they would perceive as love, but it's actually a good thing to say, like, no, you, you can't treat me like that. And I won't allow it. And I'm not gonna have a relationship with you until you change that.

Exactly. Exactly. And teenagers are going to be moody. They're gonna be teens and you have to let them be that you can't expect them to treat, uh, this divorce and this messiness. like, they're an adult. Mm-hmm , mm-hmm, , that's unfair. Right? It's being done them. Yeah. Right. I'm not, I'm not trying to like build victims or anything here, but they did not choose you guys to be married.

They did not choose you guys to go through a divorce. Mm-hmm right. And to, and to break the family, right. Obviously parents have to make decisions within like their own steam of things, but you need to let your kids be kids. I am by no means perfect in my interactions with my dad. Right. I again, remember all of the fights.

Yeah. It doesn't mean I was nice. I was always logical. Definitely bet. Yeah. Which was almost worse. um, knowing I was always logical and I just would present logical fallacies to my dad and, you know, he didn't like that. um, And that's okay. That doesn't mean I should be berated for my behavior, because if my father is acting like a child, I'm allowed to act like a child, cuz I'm also a child.

We had family members who were very angry and who kind of ganged up and attacked my siblings. And I, we I've had recently situations. There was situation with my dad where there was some disagreement. And at one point he asked us my siblings and I in like a group text message that he asked us to be like honest with him.

And so I took the opportunity and I wrote out a text message. Like I, I was careful not to like send it right when I wrote it, but I wrote it, I reviewed it and then I sent it. And one of the things I said was what you just said is like dad, like we never asked for this, like we never asked for you and. To break apart.

We never asked for you guys to get divorced. We never asked for a broken, dysfunctional family. Like we wanted a healthy and whole family. Yes. Like we wanted that so badly and it's just really sad that it was taken from us. So I agree with what you you're saying. We don't want people to remain victims, but it is okay to acknowledge that at one point you were a victim and people who, children of divorce are very much so victims, but we're just not meant to stay there.

Correct. We need to move through that. We need to grieve the loss. And, but I think acknowledging that you. This was done unto you, is it is crucial. Exactly. Because it was not your fault that your parents got divorced. Exactly. That's why our new book is entitled that cause no, it it's, it's kind of, it sounds silly when you tell someone that like why in the world would you blame yourself for it, but we do it.

And what I've come to is that often we do that because it gives us some semblance of control over a situation. That's very chaotic. It's like if I, if I could at least look back and see, well, maybe I could have done this differently. I could have done that differently. Then maybe we feel some level of control in otherwise control list.

If that's a word situation. Exactly. There are so many phone calls I can remember countless hours spent on the phone with my dad trying to reason with him. Mm-hmm right. Trying to just reason with him of, you know, alcohol or, you know, different things because in my mind, as a 14 year old or 15 year. if I can get him to accept this, mm-hmm maybe he will accept some sort of culpability for fracture in our family.

Yeah. And maybe then I can reason with him to show him, dad, I see that you're struggling with this and I still love you. Yeah. What can we do, right. Amen. Yeah. You can't reason with someone who's in the denial stage. That's the problem. And I didn't know that at that time mm-hmm so there's lots of tears, lots of phone calls.

Um, again, as I said, like my dad and I, in my perspective had a pretty close relationship. I was close with both my parents and to have that fracture and disintegrate so quickly and easily was huge, huge wound. Let's get into more of that too. When it comes to the wound, the wounds always have effects on us.

Right. We often react to them in different ways. Uh, how did you react to yeah. Just everything that happened in your life, your parents broken marriage, dealing with your dad's alcoholism. Like what were those effects? On you in particular? Yeah, I was angry. It doesn't mean I showed people my anger, but internally I was angry because this was not right.

Mm-hmm um, I'm a very logical and analytical person. And guess what? It isn't fair to have to be more mature than your parent. It was so difficult. It isn't fair. Or just to be the one to pack the suitcase. Right? Why can't he do that? Mm-hmm why do I have to be the one to drive four hours? It isn't fair to be asked by relatives to just let it go.

It's not that big of a deal. They're happier now. Mm-hmm right. It isn't fair to be the one to ask, to check your emotions and all of those things. So I dealt with anger, but I also knew, like, I felt like my emotions were wrong. Right. I'm supposed to love my parents. How can I love them when I'm angry? Mm. Um, and so I wore a mask, I shut down my emotions.

I, and I became so externally motivated and a perfectionist, right? Hmm. No one at my school, unless you were close to me or were in my, um, tine group. And even then they were shocked. Mm-hmm could guess that I was struggling with so much. Hmm. I threw myself into what I could control, which were my extracurriculars and my grades.

Yeah. You looked like you were thriving on paper from the outside. Everything was perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. I was involved with my church. I was involved in extracurriculars. I was doing really well in school. I had great relationships and friends, you know, with things at school, but it was a veneer. I was very cool and collected.

Right. Which can also be a way to irritate someone, which I had quickly found out. Yeah. Right. And when you're always calm and someone can't get a rise out of you during an interaction, but I was shutting down my heart. I wasn't actually engaging with anything. and this became difficult for all relationships with parents, with my siblings, with friends, with family, with guys, all of it.

Yeah. And also all of that, again, I became fiercely fiercely independent. No one was going to hurt me like this again. Right. You wouldn't, you wouldn't let them, you wouldn't let anyone in to even have the chance to do that. Right. And so I disengaged, I sacrificed connection for the sake of autonomy. Wow. It was my survival mechanism.

Right. Do I regret those decisions? No, it's what I needed at the time. And it's in reflection and, and growing that I can, I can look back and I can see that that's powerful. You said you were a perfectionist. I think a lot of people, some people fall into that camp as well. When we're reacting to trauma in our lives, we just tidy everything on the outside, but everything on the inside is a total mess.

Right. And some people are the opposite where they just let their external reflect their internal. So it's like, everything's a mess inside and outside. But other people like I'm one of those, I'm like you where yeah. I make the outside look so perfect. Like so tidy. It's a beautiful facade. Exactly. And so no one would ever be able to know.

And I think that's partly why people like us. Um, are often misunderstood because we often like do really well in some areas of life, like our careers, you know, sports school at the risk of sounding arrogant. I remember the, like the day I found out that my parents were getting a divorce. I was away at school.

This is after they had separated years prior. It things at home had fallen apart. When I went off for my first semester, um, at a four year college. And so I got this call from my mom and I didn't want to tell anyone, I didn't wanna burden anyone with that, which isn't a good mindset. You should open up to people to everyone listening.

Don't do this alone. It's too much for you to bear and people wanna love you and help you through it. But a lot of the people around me, I didn't feel like they could maybe handle. The heavy stuff that I was going through, so I didn't wanna burden them with it. So I just held 'em on side and my way of coping oddly at that point was school kind of like what you said.

Right? And I literally, this again sounds super arrogant, but I literally aced a test. The day after I found out my parents were getting divorced because I, I just like. Poured myself into it. I didn't always a ACE tests. Don't hear me wrong people but, um, yeah, I, I just poured myself into it. So I think a lot of times we like run from some areas of our lives and then thrive in other areas of our lives.

Because those areas that we run from are just so broken. Right. And so difficult to deal with. Right. Like I said, emotionally, I was dead, externally numb. Fantastic. Right. It's a thing I could control. I threw myself into it and again, to an unhealthy degree, but that was my coping mechanism. When I was in high school.

I wanna see if you could relate with this. I felt so numb. Like I felt, I almost felt like I didn't have a heart in my chest. Oh, a hundred percent. Yes. Yeah. Like I wanted to, I, I like had this desire to be so happy and to live life to the fullest and just like, find so much joy. And all I really felt was just like numbness.

Like I, I was going through the motions. I was doing what I should do the right thing to do, but I just felt so numb. So that sounds like what you were going through as well. Right. I remember. Different conversations. I would have with friends where they're opening up to something. And I remember being so emotionally disconnected and reminding myself, Hey, you're kind of acting like a robot you ought to say.

Hmm. I'm so sorry here. Like I remember trying to coach myself to connect with my friends. Yeah. Yeah. I don't mean to laugh. It's just a funny conversation, but it is listen to in your head. That's oh, my self-talk was so interesting, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I would say high school numb mm-hmm sea of confusion.

Total fo didn't know when she was up. No compass whatsoever. Right. I cl to my faith and I clung to my identity as, um, a mama bear to my sister. Okay. She didn't want a mom. She wanted a sister. Hmm. You only need one little sister. And that was my coping mechanism. Right. I really, I delved into that. So then when I go to college, right, I go to college down in Florida.

It's a long ways for Minnesota. And my freshman year, I had a suitcase packed and READi underneath my bed at all times. Why? Well, my little sister still had to go see my dad. Hmm. And if my mom had to leave for a business trip, she had to go see my dad. And if my, if things were bad, I was 18. I could be present.

I'm an adult that she did stay with. But that also meant I wasn't actually getting involved at college. I wasn't delving into myself and all these different opportunities that were there again, emotionally, externally, I was doing great, but being in a constant state of flight of ready to run there at a moment's notice.

You sacrifice so, so much. Wow. That's so moving and yeah, I don't even know what to say to that. It's just so sad that, and, and kind of shocking to people who don't understand your background, don't understand like this sort of trauma. Um, they probably could never understand, like why you would do something like that, but it makes my own roommate didn't even know.

Right. It makes so much sense though, you know? Right. I was, I was ready to flee to moments' notice to be there for my baby sister. Not because she asked it, not because my mom asked it, but it was the way that I could help in that situation. I remember. All the phone calls I had with my little sister mm-hmm we would talk a lot and I always could tell a marked difference whenever she was with my dad.

She even told me, well, it's not as bad with you, not here, cuz at least there's no arguing. Right. Cause it's true. I did. I was in Cindy with my dad. Yeah. Right. As I said, you know, I definitely provoked and was always like logical or just would shout. Yeah. You would stand up to him. Yeah. I would stand up to him versus my sister's tactic was to be passive and that's that's her decision.

Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. She, uh, she knows what she has to do to deal with that situation. Sure. I just hated the transformation that would happen. Right. And I'm sure she saw the same with me whenever with dad, I am more angry. I'm more outspoken. I'm more aggressive. Mm-hmm that I saw with her. She's more dormant.

She's less herself. She's so quiet. I can't talk to her on the phone. Yeah. And so I was just ready to change that at a, at a drop of a hat. Wow. If I can protect her from that. Right. I was still in mama bear mode. Yeah. Not, not a big sister mode. Have you talked to her about that? Absolutely. Yeah. That's beautiful.

Yeah. We talked a few years ago, you know, it's always so funny when you open up, especially like to a sibling or to someone who's in that family system. Mm-hmm, compared to someone removed from it and to, and it's harder . Yeah. Right. And so I just told her I'm. You know, I know you needed a big sister. I know that now.

Um, I operated the best I could and you know, I'm sorry. And she, you know, she just forgave me and she goes, oh wow. I have a completely different take of events. interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so it was really, really healing, um, in that way. And I just have been focusing more on being her bitch sister or just a sister right now that she's an adult.

We're all adults now. Right. I have four sisters. We're all graduated from college, all autonomous sweet it, the relationships differ. Right. I mean, I still will only ever have one baby sister mm-hmm and she knows that. Yeah. And every once in a while, I'll check myself and say, sorry, went to mama bear it's.

So I think it's so natural. Like I'm, you know, one of the oldest in my family I'm number two and. I think it's so natural to be super protective. I, I know I was, we won't go into that right now. Right. You'd rather take the bullets instead of them having it a hundred percent always. Yeah. How else did you see the effects of your broken family?

Parents' marriage impact your dating relationships? Oh, if you're comfortable sharing. Oh, absolutely. Um, I have a core wound of feeling like I am not enough, like I'm not lovable in and of myself. Cause because if I was my dad would've stayed. Right, right. That'ss the whole self talk. That's so thing. Yeah.

Right. That's what I think. But it's paradoxical because my fear is also that I am too much. Right. I don't wanna rock the boat. It was so much easier in the family system to not be the one that messed up. Right. Cuz then all the fingers pointed at you. One counselor described it as, uh, the game of tag. Hmm.

If someone pointed out something to you mm-hmm Hey Kendra, you didn't finish your homework. Or, Hey Kendra, you didn't do your chores. I would immediately flip it and point at a different sibling and say, but she didn't do this. Something that was more grievous deflect, you deflect. But at the same time, you're tearing down that interpersonal relationship with the sibling because you were putting them in harm's way.

Mm-hmm mm-hmm right. So as much as I said, I would take bullets for my little sister. I was also seemingly happy to shun her into that because I was so worried about myself. So that that's what the deem of tag is. You're constantly pointing out someone else's faults, mm-hmm to deflect from your own. Wow.

And it's messy and it is not a healthy way of having a relationship. Everyone's all of your relationships, basically. Right. And I did that because I learned it in my family system. I brought it into romantic relationships. Don't rock the boat. Hmm. So I'm a very independent woman. I'm fiercely energetic.

I'm always doing something. And that I recognize is attractive to like the guys that, you know, I've been in relationship with. Totally. But then I turn into a door mat. Which is not me whatsoever. Yeah. Because I don't wanna rock the boat. I wanna, I don't wanna be, um, too high maintenance or too much. Right.

And so it was so patently false to my identity though. Mm-hmm right. They would ask me a word of, I want to eat tonight again, something so simple. And there's jokes about this and talks about this. If the woman doesn't know, I always know. Yeah. I have an opinion about everything. Even if you asked me in the moment I will form one.

Yeah. And I would be like, oh, I dunno, whatever you want. Right. I would just roll over with everything. Yeah. Or it'd be, I have to make this work cuz I have to do love. Right. Cuz my parents didn't. Hmm. And so there were so many red flags that would ignore. Oh. But like you just have to love them. No, one's perfect.

Kendra. You're not perfect by any means. So what can you do? That's something I struggle with as well. Um, in my day and relationships, I. I had this like fierce sense of loyalty almost to the level of like a marriage, cuz I just didn't. I never wanted to abandon someone and correct. That felt breaking up with someone felt like abandoning them.

So even in relationships where I was like, well, I don't know this isn't really going that well. I dunno if I could see myself marrying them. But I can't like leave them. I can't abandon them. Like that would be repeating what my parents did to me and I, right. That's not what love is. I can never do that.

And so it just misconstrued, I put way too much commitment into a dating relationship, which isn't meant to have that level of commitment. So I hear you. And I think, I think that it is a common struggle, but it's so interesting. Cause I, you know, knowing you as a friend, it's like you are so again, outspoken, opinionated in a good way.

Like, you know what you are. I like to think so you're, you're like a hard charger you get after it, you get stuff done. You're one of the most productive people I know. And so to see you flip, that's so interesting and it probably is super confusing for you when you're looking in the mirror and be like, who, who are you?

I would ask myself that a lot. I mean, you also recognize it when, I mean family or origin, when you go back and you're back home for Christmas and you are not yourself. Oh gosh. And you recognize it, but you don't know what to do about it. Right. And you just feel torn. I would say the other thing with like dating relationships and that emotional intimacy.

Again, I struggled with that with friends. Of course. I'm gonna struggle over during dating, right. A hundred percent. So there I did not date in college. Okay. Yeah. I emotionally dated. Sure. And emotionally dated just means it's an extended talking period. You would go to math together, but it was never actually dates.

It's like a flame. It was a flame, but I gave it so much pressure. And so, because I put so much pressure on it, right. The first date was such a big deal to. Which again, dating should be done in a very intentional way, but it was so out of proportion to reality that I would either be way too invested and turn into a doormat or completely just cut them off.

I would, as one friend said it in college, I would snip them, snip the guy. I would just drop all connection and just be done because the last thing I wanted to turn to with my daddy problems was a guy mm-hmm I hear you. We're done cut. 'em off. Yeah, you cut 'em off, but you're not giving anyone a chance. I had such a, it was such a weird paradox of having this high pressure on love and relationships mm-hmm but also once you were in it, having such low stage such low standards mm-hmm and so there were a lot of opportunities.

I never pursued because, oh, he just doesn't get it. Or he made that one comment about my dad. So he will never understand mm-hmm right. Cause he never talked about it. Of course. He's not gonna understand mm-hmm no one should understand from the get go. Yeah, right. You build intimacy. It doesn't happen in a deep dive on the first encounter.

Yeah. Especially with people who don't come from broken families, like it takes an, an extra effort for them to even try to understand what you're going through. Right. And it was everyone I, I thought, right. And again, it was my own self. Doing people viewed me as perfect. I had my life put together. I had dealt with these things cuz you assume you deal with them to be able to do this.

It's false. I hadn't dealt with them but I, at the same time simultaneously, I was like, I, they put me on a pedestal. They don't know how messy and unlovable I really am. Mm-hmm right. So I'm dealing with this and it would flip depending on the guy, depending on the situation. And honestly it was just tiring, which is why I typically just sniffed it.

And I was like, I don't know how to deal with this because I don't know how to deal with emotions. We're gonna cut it off. It's exhausting. It is. I don't have time for it either. Cuz I'm not hardly sleeping. right, right. I was so wrapped up in everything. Bottom of my total pole, even though my deepest desire is to be a wife and mom was to work on that because that's so interesting.

And it's, and it's that core wound of like, well, my dad left, why wouldn't he leave two? Yeah. And it's almost easier to suffer the consequences of being alone than it is to risk being with a guy who then discovers, I don't actually want to be with you or you're not enough, right. Or you're too much or you're unlovable or whatever lie.

Right. That we believe that when you're thinking in the future, you're thinking like I would rather just be alone. And I think that's where a lot of people are at right now, because then you can't hurt me. Right. It's just this big defense mechanism. Right. And it's such a lie because the right person and a good person.

So in your case, a good man, in my case, a good woman will be able to work through those challenges, right. To work through that brokenness, to show you. Not solely, but as an important person in your life that no, you are enough and you're not too much and you are lovable and you are good and you are worth fighting for, and you are worth sticking around for, but man, it's scary and you don't really know it until you go down that path.

So I remember for me, you know, my first serious relationship was end of high school, beginning of college mm-hmm and, uh, it was so scary. Like I was just terrified and so anxious. And she came from a really, really good family and that made me feel even more so that like, I couldn't open up to her cuz she couldn't understand.

And if I did, she might be like really thrown off and freaked out by like, man, you're kind of a mess inside, even though everyone thinks you are like perfect. Right. Um, which is a huge joke, um, that anyone in my life would've thought I was perfect, but um, I gave off the impression kind of like you did.

Right? So man, there's so much there. Um, any thoughts on that before we move. Only that I was so focused on everything during college. Again, I, I sniffed people. Mm-hmm, that my, my first real relationship wasn't until post-grad. Yeah. Um, which is a big learning experience for me in emotional intimacy and connection and not sacrificing yourself for the sake of connection.

And there's a lot that can be impact there. And it's like this pendulum swing I did mm-hmm right. Um, if you view relationships on a spectrum, right where the, the mean the middle. is the ideal mm-hmm and you're naturally gravitate towards one of the two vices, right? One of the two bad ways to do relationship yeah.

And access or deficit. So for anyone listening, who doesn't quite understand this, it's like, you can go wrong in either of those directions. So access would be too much and deficit would be not enough. Exactly. So let's picture spectrum of relationship right. Too much would be enmesh. You sacrifice self for the sake of connection.

Mm-hmm , which is what I did in every romantic relationship and over reliance on the person, they almost determine your happiness and your wellbeing. Right. And it doesn't matter what I think, as long as we're together, but it's so much better when we're together. I'm sure. Some of you have heard these phrases before.

Totally. I, that was my self talk, every romantic relationship. And then on the flip side, right on that deficit side would be sacrificing connection for the sake of autonomy. Mm right. Remember when I was describing how I robotically, talked myself through emotional intimacy with my friends. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. Cause I, I was constantly sacrificing connection because I wanted to find out who I was, I needed to delve into that and it's a pendulum swing. So I'm naturally inclined to disengage from things. Right. I didn't know, emotional intimacy. It wasn't gonna delve into it. And I saw out other things, but then when I went romantic, it swung the other way and it was totally enmeshed.

Hmm. Yeah. And it was complete sacrifice of self for the sake of connection. Wow. No relationship is worth that that's not authentic and true and healthy connection. That middle yeah. Is able to connect without sacrificing self where it takes you. When you're in the middle, is it challenges you to become a better, healthier, stronger, more whole person?

You have to be vulnerable, right? It's hard. And in those opposite, those, those extremes that we're talking about, they both of them lead you to be, you know, a second rate version of yourself, a less best version of yourself, right? It's not what you're told to me. No, it's not authentically you so much there.

I wanna shift a little bit to the, a happier topic of healing and growth and healthy coping and all of that. So I'm sure we could talk forever about this, but what were one or two things that have helped you cope and heal the most in your life? Three things, counseling, counseling, counseling. Nice.

honestly, I, I mentioned that I was brought between all of this court ordered counselors. We flipped from, you know, this one to that one to everything I know it's like in, when I found a C. Again, not family counseling, not group counseling, but someone for me, I pursued out of my own accord. Not because the court told me to or anything.

Mm-hmm it helps so much. Wow. And this is a recent thing, right? So this happened within the past, um, 18 months, I started going to counseling. I, I had done, you know, different spiritual directions for lack of a better word. You meet with like a religious leader and you, you strive for virtue, right? It's like a spiritual coach.

Yeah. They help you grow as a person, grow a relationship with God. They recognize, um, the big tenets of your life, those big rocks that are in place that motivate you and how you make decisions. But a counselor has the tools to help you through this nastiness that happened, right? The emotional side of special, the emotional side of things, and to learn these tools and everything.

So finding a counselor, building that trust, it takes time, but I promise you, it is worth it. Don't flip from counselor to counselor. Well, let me take that back. unless they're not, sometimes it's not a good fit. Sometimes it's not a good fit, right? Yeah, yeah. Fair. But when you find that you need to give it a chance mm-hmm I am by no means having a perfect method for things.

And I, by God's, you know, Providence stumbled upon this counselor who specializes in family systems and addiction, and she has the same belief system as me. So it matches up really, really well. Dang. Yeah. Right. So it's not denying right. if I'm a Catholic and I have this view of divorce, I need someone that can empathize with that view.

Mm-hmm of why it's a big deal for me. Yeah. Why it hurts so much. Yeah. And I've been to counselors that, you know, they're a Christian and it's different, but like, oh, worst case scenario. It's always okay. That doesn't help me cuz that's not my belief system. So it was so important having that for me and then to see her regularly at the beginning, um, it was every week I was seeing my dad for the first time in nine years and I needed to talk to someone about it.

Yeah. And so I watched into that first session and I unloaded you will just say she made so many notes. Wow. And you know, after eight months I was able to taper off into every other week and um, and it, and it, and it can fluctuate sometimes it's every third week. Sometimes it's back to every week. Mm-hmm depending on what I need, but it's so good to have someone who is removed from my family system.

Who has a knowledge and experience to help me learn these tools and for someone to help me have compassion for myself, she knows me recently. I was just meeting with her and she knows how agitated I'm dating about the family holidays. Mm y'all know, this it's difficult, even if you don't have to choose between mom and dad, even just seeing family so difficult.

And it should be such a jolly time of year, but it's not. There's so many emotional expectations and, um, and ideals and everything set on it where it can get so messy. And it's, again, this is recent. My counselor sent me down and she's like, this is not you mm-hmm, let's work on this. Right. And to have someone that knows me and you can call me out of my space and bring me back to what I'm striving to be.

Mm-hmm, , it's beautiful. And it's so safe because we've built that trust. I wish everyone could have that access. And everyone could have that shorty of someone that is in the, their corner, not mom or dad's corner, your corner to challenge you to talk about your goals of who do you wanna be? How can we get there?

What are the biggest things that you're dealing with right now? Mm-hmm I talked to her about everything, right? Nothing is off the table because we've built that trust. Some weeks is said, dude, I will be honest. Some weeks it's it's work right. Some weeks it is, um, my parents or my siblings or whatever it is.

And it's the fact of the matter is like this hurt was done unto you and it affects every facet of your life. It doesn't just affect romantic relationships, not just mother and daughter relationships or with my dad or whatever. I found it, it, it happens to me in the workplace. Mm-hmm right. Where all these different things happen.

I become a doormat and all of a sudden I'm like, wait, mm-hmm , that's not me. So that's one, a second for me is prayer. Faith is a huge part of my life. And being able to delve into that with a creator who creative me out of love and for love combats, that lie that I have of I'm not lovable, cause that's vital for me too.

And that third thing is having, having people who, um, are outside of it. I have a beautiful example of marriage, um, and Noelle and Stan, this wonderful couple. They are not a replacement father and mother. I'm just gonna clarify that they are not, they are my friends and it's an intergenerational friendship because you know, they're older in their forties.

They have adult children. That's. But they are so removed from my family environment that it's so nice to have an outside perspective. Right. I have friends who are from broken families and who are not from broken families, but they're also at my same stage of life. So I strive to not have an echo chamber in my life.

I fully recognize that I can always learn something from someone and Stan and Noel are for me, ways of calling me onward ways of showing me examples, ways of saying you realize you're being crazy right now, right. Hendra, right. To force me to take a step back. Yeah. Because I can get so caught up into things again, I'm opinionated, but also doormat.

So it's like this weird balance where she will call me out and say, you have an opinion, you know, what is it? What do you want versus you need to pack off. You're being a little crazy right now with that guy, Kendra. Right. It's it's a whole gamut of things. Yeah. And to. not just an example of marriage, but have a confidant that is outside of that.

And can they're I'm too close to the painting. This is what one of my dear friends told me, FEDA, Rita, God, rester, soul. You're so close to the painting. 10, you can't see the full picture. You're so focused on the brushstrokes. You don't know what the full image is. And Noel constant re reminds me of that.

Take a step back even, and this is, um, and it's hard because when I become emotionally invested, cause I'm trying to work on this. How do I take a step back without shifting all the way to disengagement mm-hmm mm-hmm and she knows that, um, she's another confidant that I can go to. That is safe. We've built trust mm-hmm right.

And yes, she knows, you know, my parents. Yes. She knows like some siblings and things, but I know she's in my corner and that will call me on to be like that version of myself that I so desperately desire. I love that. One thing that we've talked about before in this show is like a lot of our brokenness in the trauma in our lives has come from relationships.

And that's pretty much always the case for anyone who's been through trauma. And so naturally the antidote is good, beautiful, healthy relationships. And I love that you have the counselor. I love that you have a relationship with God. And also that you have this beautiful, married couple that you can look to to replace the broken model of marriage that you have in your bones.

Like it, it literally goes down to our bones. Like it's kind of insane. It's not just something we can think about and flip on and off. It's literally something that we have to like work out of our systems by replacing with what it should look like, what a marriage should be. And so I love that and I found that super healing as well with I've had a couple couples in my life who.

Um, have done that for me too. And just, just being in their presence is healing. Isn't it? That's just, that's amazing. It's oh, I'm always looking at tickets flying back out to see new Orleans Stan, and you've spent quite a bit of time with them and that's an important point. It's not like when people hear that, they're like, oh, cool.

You've, you know, maybe talked to them on the phone or you've, I don't know, spent a, like, Dinner with them here or there, but no, you're talking like you've spent quite a bit of time with them. Yeah. I would say that our relationship really, really blossomed actually during COVID I had, you know, been seeking.

I was trying to, I was making these big decisions in my life. What do I do? And Noel and I were coworkers. Right. And she just offered, um, me like, Hey, if you wanna take a retreat from the world, right. COVID everything's shut down. I can't go to a retreat center to like, take a step back, take a week off and gather my thoughts and try to figure out what the heck I want from life.

What do I want for myself? She offered me their Airstream, which is sitting in their driveway. Nice. She goes, we won't bother you. We will let you do your silent retreat. You know, here's a car. If you wanna drive to the local church or anything, but like we will deliver meals to your door. What do you need?

Dream service. Nice. It was lovely, but it was the first time someone asked me, what do you need? No one ever asked me that during my parents' divorce. Hmm. It was always, you have to do this for your dad. This is how you love your mom. This is how you do this. She simply said, what do you need? We'll do it. Hmm.

No expectations. So I stayed with him. I did a whole week there and then went back to Minneapolis, Minnesota, as we all know what happened. And end of may, early June, 2020, a lot of turmoil came up in my city and it was just aggravating. Um, this, this piece I'd gotten from that week out in Northern Washington, mm-hmm so immediately flew back and I spent a month there and I lived with them still in the camper, but I, I came inside for meals, but I was able to witness their family tapestry.

I was able to spend a lot of time processing and talking with them. I'm a very external processor. And to be able to talk through scenarios or different things, it was so life giving to learn a different way. I saw how they dealt with conflict, right. There by no means perfect. They will be the first to admit that they are by no means.

Perfect. And I found such a piece there because of the acceptance, the acceptance of me. warts and all, yeah, it was, it was past the, the veneer of everything I was doing at work. Like I said, she was my coworker. Mm-hmm she quickly saw past that and people do people quickly see past it. Do either of them come from broken families.

Just curious, uh, to an extent like their families are intact in terms of marriage, but they've dealt with their own forms of crazy dysfunction. Okay. Dysfunction. I would say the biggest thing that I've learned from them is just because that was an unspoken family. doesn't mean you need to perpetuate it.

Wow. That's I learned that both from them as well as from counseling mm-hmm and when you break a family rule, prep will hit the fan. Yeah, it will. And it will be in the most, um, seemingly lovingly way. It has to be this way or that way, or, wow. You're gonna be ditching someone if you do that. Like how, how is that love?

Aren't you being selfish with your actions? All of this stuff is gonna pop up, but when you have those reference points for me, that's again, no Orleans stand it's my counselor. it's it is Christ to help keep me sane in this tumultuous storm. That's what I've anchored my ship to. That's awesome. Reference points to show you like what's healthy and what's not, which I think is so, so important.

I love what you said about, you know, Noel asking you, like, what do you need? Because so often, um, I mean, that's like tear provoking, like it's beautiful. So often what happens when your family breaks apart? When your parents get divorced or separated, whatever. Your needs are totally forgotten to the point where you feel the need to feel, fill your needs in ways that are not healthy.

Right. And that's exactly what I struggled with, you know, years ago in my life, when it came to struggling with pornography or other unhealthy ways of coping, like isolating myself, things like that, it was all an attempt to fill, like in real need that I had in a really crappy way. And, but it's all you knew.

Right? And I think that's what happens so often is like, we're just left on our own to fill our own needs. And that's often where that fierce independence comes from. And so it's so beautiful that someone asked you, like, what do you need? Like, it's such a simple phrase, but it's like, man, so, so beautiful.

Um, so much we can talk about, I do wanna ask you if you can contrast your life years ago to now, uh, what is different in, in a few words, like what what's different, how, how has it gotten better? And I know you're still working through. Stuff as we all are, but yeah. How is life different for you now? Right.

Like I, I mentioned at the beginning, this is the hardest story ever, but it doesn't set me off right. Emotionally to be able to discuss or look back on it. And again, I attribute a lot of this through counseling to give me the tools to be able to do this. I know so much more about my natural virtues and vices.

I know so much more about my inclinations and my brokenness of thi of wounds that I've done of wounds others have done on to me. Right. It's both. And, but I now like have learned tools to deal with the difficulties. I still mess up. I still feel absolutely I can analyze breathe and, and an attempt to like solve a situation.

But I'm actually able to use these tools from counseling to like take a step back mm-hmm . And I have that space where I I've been able to grow in self knowledge. And to me that's the most powerful type of knowledge. Why is that so helpful? So does someone listening, they might hear you say things like.

Self knowledge. And I didn't mean to cut you off. I think this is important. They hear you say things like self knowledge. They hear you say things like compassion to yourself. Someone might be like, that's kind of like this flaky kind of touchy, feely, touchy, feely. Oh, wait I with my emotions again, right?

Yeah. Right. So, so why is that? So on a practical level, like why is that so important to know yourself? Why is this so important to have compassion to yourself? Well, those are two separate questions. I would say fair. So self knowledge is important because when you start to learn more about yourself, you can start to reflect on different situations and your trigger points.

You can start to build that environment and boundaries that help make you feel safe and secure, where you don't lash out right at a family gathering. Why? Because you did a workout that morning, or you were able to take that alone time, or you're able to nip an argument in the bud. Someone gave you some critical feedback and you have a right.

You've learned to say, feedback is a gift. It doesn't mean you have to do something about it. Mm-hmm and you say to that person, thanks for that advice. I can, I appreciate that. You care. Yeah. And then you say, you know what, I'm gonna go for a walk. Right. And you might need some space to like, deal with that, knowing that you need that space is self knowledge.

Okay. Right. And then you can deal with more difficult situations. You can learn to build those boundaries where you don't feel like you're in survival mode where you don't go into blocking out emotions. Like, as we said, we were numb in high school. Totally. Right. You learn those different tools and that's right.

It's so vital because you know more about yourself. You then learn what you need. So you can give mm-hmm and giving is how you build a relationship. And that vulnerability and emotional intimacy, I can build a relationship with my father, without him being my confidant. And it's hard to get to that point.

And it's hard to think about that, cuz he's my dad. He. Ought to be the one protecting his little princess. Right? Sure. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. And so self knowledge is so, so powerful. It's so foundational. So basically what it's helped you do if I'm hearing you right. Is it it's helped you learn to navigate these really challenging situations without blowing up without melting down without becoming numb.

It's helped you in short to become a better you and happier you and a more whole you, the best version of myself. There you go. Right. And again, I'm, there are a lot of times where I still mess up, right where I leave an interaction with a family member and I'm like, shoot, I really, really mess that up. And I knew I was doing it in the moment, but if I can reflect back on it, I can see what my trigger points were.

Mm-hmm um, and so then I can start to reflect. The next best thing would be. I start to recognize it in the moment of like, wow, I am actively needling my sister right now. Right. Because I am feeling unsafe for whatever reason. Mm-hmm and sometimes that could be as simple as I didn't eat right before I talked to her.

Totally. Right. I'm just way more hangry. Yeah. So don't call someone when you're angry. Right. It's so it's as simple as that for me, right. To a much more complex and situational thing. Right? Sure. Sure. It's through that self knowledge where then I. One reflect, see where I messed up two. Maybe I can recognize it in the moment.

And then you hopefully build up two. You can recognize it before it happens so you can prevent it. And that's why it's so powerful. Yeah. No, that's it. That makes so much sense. And then the compassion portion of it, it kind of goes hand in hand, but what, uh, what else would you add? I guess to that question, if someone's thinking like, that sounds so corny, why is it actually really helpful and good?

This is something that I've been working on this past year with my counselor, right. Where she's like, you need to have compassion for yourself and I'm sitting there like, why , why is this so vital? Yeah. But it's, it's vulnerability. It's learning that emotional intimacy and it's learning how to. forgive myself and what I mean by forgive myself.

It's forgive myself for when I look back and I see all the ways I messed up, right with my dad, with my siblings, with my little sister, with my mom, with friends around me again, I was an angry mean person and very calm, cool, and collected where I made it seem like it was your fault. You were exploding. I needed to have compassion.

That that was all I knew. I need to be able to look back and like engage with my 14 year old self of like, Hey babe, it's okay. It's not your fault that your parents divorced. It's not your fault. You feel unloved. It's not your fault. You feel so lost. And that's where that compassion is vital because I'm then engaging my emotions and I'm engaging my heart.

I'm learning to forgive myself because if I can do that, I can start to learn to forgive others too. Like the difficult others, not the easy others. Sure. The difficult ones that involve lot more of your emotional capacity. Wow. That's important. That's not some corny, phony thing. That's really key. And I think when it comes to healing trauma, that seems to be one of the core tenets of any sort of trauma therapy is that you'd come to some level of giving yourself grace.

Maybe that's a different way of putting it, right? It's like, you're, you're kind of letting yourself off the hook in some ways in inappropriate ways, right? You're saying like, man, it it's understandable that you acted this way. It's understandable that you did these things and it's helpful when you have compassion for yourself.

And sometimes, you know, it can flow one way or another. For me, I needed compassion for self first, before I could have compassion for others. Again, the others that really hurt me deeply, not the easy others. mm-hmm right. And so for others, it's through compassion through those hard situations that they can then have compassion for themselves.

But for me, as I said, I locked down my emotions. It was the last thing I was gonna touch. Cuz it was messy. No one was gonna hurt me again. I will not be vulnerable. That's why it's been one of the hardest steps for me. Okay. But then I can look back and I can see my parents and I can see. Wow. You guys were both brought up in alcohol at.

you both dealt with to dependent, you know, behaviors in terms of communication and you perpetuated that in your own family, cuz that's what you knew. Mm-hmm and to have compassion for them at that time, I know I'm throwing around a lot of counseling terms and a, and a lot of alcoholism terms, um, because it's the way I analyze right where it is through logic.

And stopping and removing myself from the situation, whether it's taking a walk or hanging up the phone, not mad in a mad way. Right. And taking a space and reflecting where I can see, okay, this is the reality of the situation. This is what they knew. How can I move on? Wow. You've grown so much. That's beautiful to see.

And I admire you for sticking with it. I think that, and alone is like an act of courage and it says so much about a person. So bra, blah, anything else to add when it comes to how your life is different? Before we move on the last part for me again, this past year was, was moving. So we'd moved my senior year.

I wasn't, as I said, in relationship with my dad anymore, my mom was back and forth, you know, between different states, moving around, doing her thing. And my siblings were in all different states. And I love Minnesota with huge passion. Right? I love everything about it. There's so many good memories there. I did not realize how healing also how scary it was to move to a different state.

Not because a college brought you there. Right because community is right there from the get go, but to have a different start outside of that, again, we've moved my senior year. I was four hours away from my dad. I was not in that small town anymore, but being able to move to Colorado and to create that space of like, what do I want out of life?

Who do I want to be? These are constant questions. I asked myself even 13 years later after this, the first separation, right? Yeah. It was so vital to have that space where I can learn, what do I want? Right. When Noel asked me, what do you need? I had no idea. I didn't know how to answer. I'm always worried about like helping everyone else.

Right. You put others' needs over here. Right? And so you have to be able to engage yourself to do that. And so I had that space and I'd been working on this and I'd been out of college and I'd been doing all these things, but being able to move. Oh, my goodness. It was, it was another, a way to, to, to learn autonomy, right.

And to learn how to connect with my family, because I had my own little den. Right. I had my own way of an, an area where I, I still felt safe and secure where I can engage in more difficult relationships where I I'm texting my dad. Now I would not have been able to do that if there was ever a thing of just drive up and Sue me for dinner right there.

There's none of that pressure. Yeah. And so for me, that was the right decision to do. And you've been able to at least learn better how to navigate your relationship with your mom. You've gotten, you know, things aren't perfect by any means neither with your dad or your mom, but yeah, because I'm not perfect.

There you go. I love that, but that's really, I think that's a beautiful and powerful change in your life too. You know, it went from maybe acting out emotionally to now you're able to engage your parents in a respectful way, but also retain your boundaries. Not fall into like old patterns. Right. I can text my dad about hunting or about guns or about wildlife.

Right. I text my mom about home improvement projects I'm doing or about my faith. Right. There's different ways I can connect with them without feeling like I'm sacrificing myself for the sake of connection. That's awesome. If your parents were sitting here with us right now or were listening, let's say to this podcast episode, uh, it's a big question.

It's probably the most difficult question I've asked so far. What, what would you say to them? What would you say to your mom? What would you say to your. I love you first and foremost. And if I need space, please let me have it. And it doesn't mean I don't love you when I need to go for a walk or I need to remove myself from something, or I seem to emotionally shut down because there are times when I cannot give.

And if I'm backed into that, that corner and you want something from me immediately, and you need this and you don't realize you're doing it, and I'm trying to give better signs and ways of communicating. Like, if I can have that space, I can love you better rather than responding out of being scared or angry or vulnerable, and I'm not ready for it.

And someone forced me into this, right. Because I know they have the best intentions, but it's to let me have space because it's hard already navigating a divorce. It's also hard learning how to become an adult and having that autonomy in your family. My family's a very enmeshed family. And so to be able to allow me to have that space to operate, it's not being, being selfish.

It's actually me loving you better. Beautiful. Thank you so much. I'm gonna give you the last word, um, before I do just thank you for being vulnerable. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for sharing a lot of intimate details of your story. Um, it's powerful and I know a lot of people listening can totally relate with you.

So thank you so much. You have the last word. What would you say to someone right now? Who's listening, who feels broken, who feels stuck in life because of the trauma they've endured, especially from their broken family. What, what would you, what encouragement, what advice would you give to that person?

It's okay. If you're not at a space to give. And it's okay to receive from others. You are not in charge of anyone else first and foremost, you need to get yourself in order, right? And there's different paths for people as you delve through that, your duties. And first and foremost are to yourself because you cannot give what you cannot have.

Find your counselor, build a relationship delve into self knowledge. As I said, it's the most powerful type of knowledge to have. And to remember like the only thing you can control is yourself. The only thing you can work on and to strive in is yourself. And always remember the serenity prayer, God grant me the serenity to accept the things.

I cannot change the courage to change the things that I can and the wisdom to know difference.

Absolutely love the question that Noel asks, Kendra, what do you need? I think it's really profound and that's something I wanna invite you to think about, to chew on, to reflect on what do you need. In other words, what are you lacking in your life? That if you had, it would bring real, genuine peace, freedom, and happiness.

What do you need? Because the truth is if you don't fill your legitimate needs in healthy ways, what we tend to do is fill them in unhealthy ways, which leads to a lack of peace, a lack of freedom and a lack of happiness. And so give that some thought, what do you need in the conversation? My new book came up.

So I just wanna tell you a little bit about that. If you haven't heard about it, it's called. It's not your fault. A practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents force. It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by teens and young adults from broken families.

If you wanna buy it, or you just wanna get the first chapters for free, you can go to restored ministry.com/books. Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. If you wanna share your story on our blog like Kendra did, like I mentioned, at the start of the show, you can do that. It's really simple.

Three simple steps go to restored ministry.com/story. You can just fill out the form on that page. It's really a simple form that will guide you in telling a short version of your story. And then we'll turn that into an anonymous. Blog article. Now, some of the benefits to doing that, reflecting on your story, through the process of writing it out is actually healing on neural biological level.

It makes your brain healthier and writing your story, the act of writing your story, not just reflecting on it is also healing. There have been studies that have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed. They're less anxious, they're healthier.

And they're happier going beyond just reflecting and writing out your story. Sharing your story with someone else is also healing on a neuro biological love. And lastly, your story, the struggles you've overcome, the struggles you've endured can give someone else hope, especially someone who's going through what you've been through right now.

It could give them some guidance and give them some hope, especially if they feel hopeless. And so if you wanna share your story, we'd love to hear it. We'd love to receive your story@restoredministry.com slash story. The resources mentioned during the show notes at restored ministry. Dot com slash 57.

Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from the effects of their appearance, divorce, or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you are born to be.

#056: How Virtue Results in Happiness & Freedom | Dr. Andrew Swafford

Dr. Andrew Swafford came from a dysfunctional family, even though his parents never got divorced. As a result, he questioned: “Can I be a good husband and father? Or am I destined to repeat the cycle of dysfunction?”

Thankfully, he overcame those doubts and built a beautiful marriage and family. In this conversation, he shares what helped him to do just that. Plus, we discuss:

• What is virtue and how do you build it?

• A three part framework to know if you’ve acquired a virtue

• The ultimate measure of a virtuous person

• Why virtue offers you happiness and freedom

• Practical tips you can use today to build virtue

Buy Dr. Swafford’s book: Spiritual Survival in the Modern World: Insights from C. S. Lewis's Screwtape Letters

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Dr. Andrew Swafford

  • John Paul II to Aristotle and Back Again

  • Nature and Grace: A New Approach to Thomistic Ressourcement

  • Nature and Grace: A New Approach to Thomistic Ressourcement

  • Ascension: Dr. Andrew Swafford’s Products

• The Art of Living: The Cardinal Virtues and the Freedom to Love

• Back to Virtue: Traditional Moral Wisdom for Modern Moral Confusion

• Emotional Virtue

• Mere Christianity  

• Sister Mariam 

• Fr. John Burns 

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

My guest today came from a dysfunctional family, even though his parents never actually got divorced. And as a result, he seriously wrestled with questions. Like, can I actually be a good husband and a good father, or am I just destined to repeat the cycle of dysfunction that I saw in my family now, thankfully he overcame those doubts and he built a really beautiful marriage and family.

And in this conversation he shares what helped him do just that. And I'll give you a hint. It has so much to do with healing. And building virtue. And so in this episode, we discuss what is virtue and how do you build it? He offers a three part framework to know if you've acquired a virtue. We also talk about the ultimate measure of a virtuous person.

We touch on why virtue offers you happiness and freedom. And then we share some more practical tips on how to build virtue today. This is such a valuable conversation. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 56. You've probably heard that my new book is live on Amazon. It's titled.

It's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. The sad truth is that for a lot of teens and young adults, the most traumatic thing that they've endured is their parents' separation or divorce, but nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and problems that stem from their family's breakdown.

And without that guidance, they continue to feel alone and struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles and so much. And I experienced these exact problems. I know this firsthand. It shouldn't be this way. My book, it's not your fault is an answer to that problem.

It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges face by teens and young adults from broken families, such as. After my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted, inadequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me. Self-harm is my way of coping. How do I stop? What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life events?

How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage? I feel broken. Like something is wrong with me. How do I heal and feel whole again? What can I do to heal my relationship with my parents? Why does God let bad things? Like my parents' divorce happen. The content in the book is based on research, expert advice and real life stories.

And after reading, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents' divorce or separation, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems. They'll learn healing tax. Dicks to help them feel whole again, how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions about their future.

And if you come from a broken home, this book is for you, but if that's not your background, maybe you don't come from a broken family. This book is also for you because you likely know someone who comes from a broken home. And so this is a solid resource that you could. Give to them or use to learn how to help them.

And so you can buy the book right now on Amazon. Just click the link in the show notes, or go to restored ministry.com/books. Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. Now, if you're not ready for that, you can get the first chapters for free on our website. Just go to restored ministry.com/books.

Click on the button to get the free chapters. Fill out your name, your email, and we'll send you the free chapters again. You can do that@restorministry.com slash books. My guest today is Dr. Andrew SWER. Dr. Swofford is the associate professor of theology at Benedictine college. He's the general editor and contributor to the great adventure Catholic Bible published by Ascension press.

And he's the host of the DVD series and author of the companion book, Hebrews the new and eternal covenant, as well as the author and host of Roman. The gospel of salvation, both published by Ascension. Dr. Andrew is the author of nature and grace, John Paul II to Aristotle and back and spiritual survival in the modern world.

He holds a doctorate in sacred theology from university of St. Mary of the lake and a master's degree in old Testament and symmetric languages from Trinity evangelical divinity school. That's a mouthful. He's a member of the society of biblical literature, academy of Catholic theology and a senior fellow at the St.

Paul center for biblical. Theology. He lives with his wife, Sarah and their five children, Atchison, Kansas. And you might remember Sarah from the podcast. She was on an episode 20, which we discussed in the conversation. We spoke about navigating singleness in that episode. I'm so thrilled to share this episode with her husband, Dr.

And Andrew Swafford, such an insightful and valuable convers.

Dr. Swofford it's such an honor to, to have you on the show, I've been looking forward to this for a long. Yeah, such a blessing, Joey. Uh, thanks for having me on, man. I want to, um, talk to you about virtue. Wanna talk about how do you build virtue, things like that. But before we dive into the virtue side of the conversation, I'd like to start with your story.

When Sarah, your wife came on in episode 20, she mentioned pretty vulnerably that there was a lot of brokenness at home growing up. There's some dysfunction. And so. I'm sure. There's a lot. We can talk about there. I wanna hone in specifically on the example of marriage that you saw, what was that example like for you growing up?

Yeah, so my, my parents were married, stayed married, or are still married, but it was one of those kind of, um, unhappy marriages. I mean, lots, and, and from the time I can, as long as I can remember, I mean, I, I just assumed they would eventually get divorced. They just, just never did so lots of volatility. Um, you know, I mean, My dad was not to my knowledge and not with, not with me, uh, ever physically abusive, but, but very, very verbally abusive in terms of, it just didn't take much to set him off, worked really long hours, lots of overtime.

And, and, you know, and, and again, lots of people certainly have had it far worse, worse than I, but you know, lots of tension, lots of you just never know when, when something was gonna kinda set the trigger off. And, uh, yeah, that was, you know, one of the deep fears that I had, you know, kind of coming of age and after having my conversion was.

Could I be a good dad? Could I be a good husband? Because I didn't see the example of it. Absolutely. And because of the example that you saw, I'm just curious, what sort of fears and struggles did you have aside from believing, or maybe not believing yeah. That it was possible for you to be a good husband and be a good father.

I mean, so you, I think you kind of assume, uh, maybe subconsciously at least I, I did for a while that you kind of, you know, you're sort of destined to repeat the patterns you grew up with. And, and I can look back at my, you know, my father's life and, and, you know, he didn't have a great upbringing and there's lots of dysfunction there.

And so it's easy to kind of be almost fatalistic about that. And, and what. I, when I came to realize, and in some ways it, it didn't happen fully until after I was married, after I started living, it was, and that's why I love to tell college guys all the time. Like brother, you can be as good of a dad or husband as you want to be.

I think we do repeat the trends that we grew up with. If there's nothing to buck the trend, but if there's something. Bucks the trend, a convers experience, a firm resolved to be the dad. You didn't have that can move mountain. So I just wanna say to everybody, listening to everybody, I, I said this all the time to guys that come across fear, not man.

Uh, you are not a prisoner to your past. I don't care what what's there. You're gonna, we're all gonna have wounds, but you're not a prisoner. You can be, you can be as good of a dad or husband as you want to. So good. That's so encouraging. Cuz I think a lot of people, I know the people that we work with through our ministry feel exactly that fear that you mentioned of repeating the mistakes that they saw in their parents' marriage.

And like you said, so often it does happen from generation to generation. There's just divorce. Like one of my friends, I was talking to this couple that we hang out with, uh, frequently and close friends of ours and they can only think of one couple. That has stayed married in their extended and her extended family of everyone that's been married.

Yeah. Just shocking and, and scary too. And I know they feel that fear, uh, in a very real way, but I think it's good for you to say that you're not destined to go down that road. And I think one of the things that, uh, I think of two aside from the firm resolve, which is absolutely necessary is building someone of a system, a, a community around you.

Yeah. To support you because. If you go at it alone. I mean, so often you're just gonna end up going back to what you saw. It's just what you know. Right. It's what you know. And, um, I think you're, you're, you're you're so right. And you can't do this alone. But even, I mean like, so something like half of marriage is in a divorce, but how many are joyless?

How many are like unhappy? And we all know that number is devastatingly high. The key that I think I've come to, not alone with the community, uh, with the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. After I had my conversion with him and. You can't just cover up even very, very good people, even devout people, they can fall into this.

So don't so on the one hand you can be as good of a debt or husband as you want to be. And then the don't be kind of naive to think it couldn't happen to you. Couldn't happen to me because once you get in sort of like dysfunctional patterns and ruts, it's like ruts in the grass, like the rain falls down and it goes right down that path.

And once those patterns get set up, they're really easy to fall into again and again. So I, I think, and part of where we're gonna get to with virtue is that kind. Human formation. Like not when the lights are on when no one's looking, where is the real game of our lives played? And, and man, I would say civilizations are one and lost right there in the school of a family, like right there when nobody's watched, not when you're given a talk, not when you're on the stage, not when all those things, when lights are on it's like what kind of man or woman are you behind the scenes?

And that's where your medal is really tested. And on the one hand you gotta have that resolved. But you gotta have that community to build you up, as you said, and, uh, you know, to speak from my full experience, man, it's not a natural thing by itself, man. I mean, grace builds upon nature, presupposes nature.

And if there's, if there's kinks in the natural human formation, it's gonna affect how grace can transform that. But in my experience, meeting Jesus and meeting him in a profound way in my Catholic faith, they changed. Everything. And it set me on a path. It wasn't overnight. It wa you know, you can't just take some Jesus frost and put it on some old, bad habits and old wounds and expect it to go away.

But over time, uh, it it's, he created the new man and me, and I'm still working progress, but nothing was ever the same after that point. Likewise. Along those lines. So obviously your relationship with Jesus, the people you had in your life, the community, the firm resolve that really helped to heal and start to reverse that cycle of dysfunction and divorce that ran in the family.

Was there anything else that really helped you to heal and to go at your own route? Yeah. I mean, so it's, I guess it's part of a whole, I mean, one. So I came to, I came to, I teach at Benton college now in, at Kansas. Uh, but I came here as a student. Initially I came here by football and, um, you know, grew up Catholic kind of a name only, but never met much to me.

Uh, didn't really go to mass and had this big conversion. Beginning at the end of my freshman year, but really came to a head in the fall semester, my sophomore year. And it's it. Wasn't just Anar call. I mean, it was, it was a, a brewing life changing conversion. I had to let go of some things and I, I met a new group of friends and, you know, the key thing frankly, was a, you know, as I was really be drawn in, drawn into the way of life drawn into the fellowship, the, the virtue, the, just the kind of purposefulness in life.

I mean, so many people. Life, like it's a story with no plot. And that's where this just sadness comes in. And, and all of a sudden, you know, football, wasn't, everything. It became a metaphor for life and not the other way around. And so, but I guess what I'm getting at is it was a relationship with a girlfriend back in Ohio university that eventually had to, that was the last thing holding me back, had to walk away from that for her second from mine, but this conversion process and the mentors that stepped into my.

You know, one of whom was, uh, Dr. SRE, uh, he and his wife, Beth were just instrumental in my life and in my wife's life. They're the godparents of oldest son. It wasn't just a one moment. Okay. Now you accept Jesus. Now he's your personal Lord and savior it. Conversion, as we know is ongoing, and this was a ever deepening journey.

Uh, that's not just, I'm gonna stop doing this, but what are the virtues I need to grow in? And what are the deep wounds from my past that I need to bring to Jesus and, and, and really dig deep, not in a way to kind of like re-litigate relive and beat myself up over. What's the dysfunction going way back and how can it be presented to Jesus on the cross and redeemed and transfigured, and, and here's the thing is like at the N jail.

So in one said, he said, you know, Thomas philosopher, historian philosophy said, you know, St. Thomas Aquinas writes as a free man. Santa Augustin writes as a freed man, Santa Augustin, who, you know, had a child out of wedlock and, you know, have this crazy story and then comes to me, Jesus. And both stories are beautiful and, and both are profound.

Not, one's not better than another, but it's. As I said, you can't just have this conversion and put some little Jesus frost and expect that now all of a sudden everything is gone. It's like, no, no, you gotta dig deep. And these things will resurface at different points in your life. And so I guess what helped me friendship.

Jesus, but really mentors that were really willing to go deep with me at both the spiritual and the psychological, the emotional level. Not in simply like a Naval gazing, but just a okay. What's there. And how can, um, how is this affecting you now and how can we free you from those chains? So good. And I love what you said.

I think if we just put bandages on our brokenness and ignore going to the root and just kind of stuff, things on under the rug, they're gonna come out later. And like you said, if you just put some of that pixie desk, Jesus pixie desk on stuff, you're not going to, it's not gonna change you at a heart level, which then when the struggles of.

Pain comes your way, problems come your way. And in different chapters, like you said, that's, what's gonna break down. It's it's not gonna last so, right. I, I, I love what you said there. And I think the human formation portion, like you said, building virtue is so essential. And so I wanna shift to that if that's okay.

I wanna start with the basic question, cuz a lot of people listening probably haven't studied this stuff as much as you have. What exactly are do we mean when we say virtue? What is virtue? Ha. Well, I I'll tell you what, where it really struck me as, as an athlete. And when I had my, my conversion kind of really came to a head in a Christian moral life class with Dr.

SRE and I walked in thinking it's about a bunch of rules and the Bible says, this church says this can't do that. And I walked in, I couldn't have been more wrong. It was about freedom, friendship, happys. Virtue. All of a sudden I could see, gosh, this is why you're not happy because you, my friend are made for more.

So one of the things that's really deep in the, in the, the classical tradition, uh, in likeso Plato, but, but is just absorbed and enhanced by the Christian tradition is really to see it as an athletic metaphor. Right? I mean, like any player can hit a lucky shot, but the good player is consistent. Is reliable, can do it on command and, and takes joy in doing it with greater and greater excellence.

That's what virtue really is all about. It's not just like on the outside. What do I do? It's what kind of a person, a man rule am I becoming? And the great beauty of this when you really step in is. In each and every action, the choice really is not simply what do I do right here right now? It's who do I want to be?

Because I'm actually modifying my very self, just like a picture. Like I joke with my students. I'm like, look so often we wanna say, Hey, I'm a good guy, deep down. I mean, deep down. I'm a good guy. Despite what I did last weekend, I'm a good guy. It's like, Hey bro. It's like saying I'm a good pitcher. Deep down.

I just never throw strikes. it's like, it doesn't work like that because each pitch you throw with poor mechanics makes it more likely you'll throw with poor mechanic. The next time. And so it's so easy for so many of us to say, Hey, I'm gonna live it up now. And I will get real about life in five years.

And in light of virtue, it's like, no, no, no, who, what you're doing now is directly related to who you'll be in five years, because you are on a journey of becoming you're becoming a certain kind of person. And so what virtue does, it becomes a, you know, it's, there's different etymology. I mean, veer and Latin means a Manliness or a power, like virtue gives you the ability.

To do the good to do it promptly, to do it even effortlessly and to do it with joy. In other words, the moral life is not just, let's always do the hard thing. It's no become the kind of people who can do the right thing. With ease with joy promptly on demand and thereby attained the freedom to be who you really wanna be.

We all wanna be the hero when it counts, but the only way you get there is by being a champion in the little things. And you think about movies like gladiator, right? So remember when he, you know, he's captured and think about the difference to him as a seasoned soldier. Versus others who have never seen combat.

And there's that one scene with a guy's like tinkling nose lake. And that probably would be me in all honesty, but, but that's what virtue does. Me too. It makes you a seasoned, moral and spiritual athlete. So you've been there. You've been tested, you have a pattern of overcoming these things. And so when the big test comes like.

You're ready. Whereas you're not just a lucky player who, oops. He hits a lucky shot. Like, no, no, you're you you're Michael Jordan. You you're the one who's who wants the ball in that clutch moment because you've honed in on the skills to play the game of life with excellence. It's about the art of living and living well.

I love that. And I was just watching gladiator last night. That's hilarious. As soon as you, as soon as you were saying that I was like gladiator. Cause yeah, Maximus had spent years and years developing his skills as a warrior. And uh, it's not something that happens overnight. And I think that's a good reminder.

One of my teachers at Franciscan, I went to Franciscan university. One of my teachers, Dr. Um, ashy. He would always talk about ease, promptness and join. I love that framework cuz you basically to everyone listening. You know, that you've acquired a virtue integrated into your character when you can do it with ease, prominence, and joy.

Right. And so really helpful to remember. Totally. AOLs got a great line at the beginning of his ethics, where he says, um, the it's really fascinating. The pleasure or pain accompany in an action is an index of my. It's not that the pleasure pain is an index of the action being good or evil. It's not that, but like if I'm especially pained by doing a virtuous action, if it really hurts, that's a sign that I have not yet mastered that virtue.

It's sort of like, I mean, you know, for me, this is pretty smoking fast. I've done it a couple times around a six minute mile, but yeah. And let's say I do that. I throw up everywhere. Right. And it's been a long time since I've done that, but let's say I train for a series of months and then around the same mile, same pace.

It won't be as painful. When I'm in better shape, that's what the virtuous life's all about. So good. Are VIRs just good habits or is there more to it than that? Yeah. Well, so they, yeah, I mean, so we can, we can go in, in deeper ways. Um, So for someone like Aristotle, he looks at what we are. I mean, and, and he'd be happy to speak about like the, the virtue of a horse or the virtue of, you know, a watch in horse.

What, what makes a horse, a good horse? What makes a watch a good watch when it performs its function? Well, so he looks at human being, what is a human being? He says it's he's it's ARA. RA is a rational. So reason and, and not just reason that is the ability to kind of calculate as if we're just a computer in a machine.

But, but, but to ask, because think about this, we can ascribe reasons to animals. The animal did this for this reason, but the animal doesn't ask itself, whether these are good reasons for doing this action. There, there are, I mean, again, animal animals are amazing, but I'm interested in the monkeys, DNA, not the other way around.

So what does it mean then to live in accordance with the fullness of my nature as rational? What it means in part for aerosol to not be a slave, to my emotions, not to be a slave, to my passions. Uh, and so I courage, for example, it's not, not having fear. It's not letting fear control me and having the ability to rise above it when the moment is right to choose the good, even in spite of this difficulty.

And so it it's good habits that are perfective of our nature, right? So, uh, the classic Cardinal virtues. So you think about, okay, what what's right. Reason applied to decision making. It's called prudence. What's right. Reason applied to relations with others. It's called justice. What's right. Reason applied to my emotions of fear and things like that.

It's called courage. What's right. Reason applied to my desire for food, drink and sex in inappropriate ways. It's called temperance. So those virtues then don't fall out of a hat as just a bunch of values that some people like rather they are perfective of our human. As rational and as free. And then when the Christian tradition comes along and says, yeah, but there's also faith hope and charity.

What happened? I mean, think about what charity. I mean, those things, faith, hope and share. I think what hope does to courage? Think about how it enhances and dramatically strengthens courage. Yeah, there's the courage of a soldier, but there's always the, there's also the courage of a martyr who has the ability to persevere through an evil that he or she cannot remove.

And we're all gonna need both kinds of courage in life. Think. Not just prudence, but faith where you see the world as God sees it, it, it doesn't suppress the natural virtue. It enhances it. And think about what, what charity does. I mean, think about whether it's love and sexuality. Think about placing all those things in the context of love of God and radical love of neighbor.

Where you love them for the sake of themselves and even for the sake of God, uh, because it's so easy. Think about, you know, cha I know we're all sometimes tired of hearing this, but like, is love about gift or about taking it's about gift or about need. I can love someone for simply what they do for me, but that's really loving myself as I try to pretend to love them.

Charity doesn't suppress temperance. Doesn't suppress human, love it dramatically enhances it. So for the Christian tradition, it's about that, which is perfective of our nature, which brings us to an objective happiness. So happiness, not merely as a subjective state of contentment, but the objective happiness.

That is the perfective of my nature, a happiness that is not easily taken away. It's not simply about what happens to me. It's the fruit of my character. So the Christian tradition says that's exactly right. And let me tell you more of. So good. This is mind blowing and I think, um, so many people listening are just taking all of this in and I, I think one way to summarize and correct me if I'm wrong here.

Yeah. Go for it. Is that, uh, one of the best measures of how virtuous a person is, is their level of self mastery. Would you say that's true or not? Oh, and I mean, I think it, when, when all comes to a head, can I rise above my spontaneous emotional reaction in the. And this will make or break a marriage. This will make or break a father and son, father.

And I mean, and we're not gonna be perfect, but, but think about how often we are just kind emotional pinballs and just think about all the kind of dysfunctions that, that occur when there's one comments made and then it escalates to more. And then you just develop these, these dysfunctional patterns and habits.

Roommates siblings, parents, spouses, like this is where I think. So I think you're exactly right. Can I attain self mastery? Can I be master of myself because I cannot fully love, I can't fully give myself until I am master of myself. Hmm, Dr. Susan, David is a psychologist at the Harvard medical school and she goes at this from somewhat of a more secular point of view, but she talks about how, um, this idea of emotional agility.

And she said it basically has two parts. It's it means facing your emotions, feeling them, not stuffing them away, not ignoring them. Right. Right, right. But then choosing your response in a way that aligns with your deepest held belief. So for Catholics, we would say, yeah, that sounds like virtue. That that's exactly right, because it's like you say, it's important to say this.

It's not a suppression of emotion. It's not a suppression of passion. It's a right ordering of them. And in real sense, it's even greater to do the right action with passion. So passion doesn't necessarily be the guy it's not passion's job to find the truth. It's not my emotions job to find the truth. But when I find the truth and I will.

Execute that truth. It's even greater if I do it with passion, because now my full self, the emotion, I mean, think about what the emotions do. There's a vividness to our lives. Cause the emotion there's like a Gusto to our lives that would be lacking. We're not angels or robots. Right. So love ordered by right reason.

Should bring all the passion in the world. You just have to get the, the right reason context first. And then it's actually, I think I would say this a positive. Good. So the tick spouses, for example, it's important to connect emotionally with one spouse. So the love can't be simply based on an emotional union.

That's gonna fall apart. Sooner than later, we know that, but once it's rooted in a firm act, will I give myself to you and you, to me, especially for a captain, the context of marriage as, as an into, so union form forged by God, then I have to, and I need, and I should, I should take the light in connecting emotionally with my spouse, with my kids.

The emotions are a wonderful thing. It's just not their job to find the truth, but we have to, I mean, it's it's, as you said, it's not about suppression. It's about. Channeling ordering and allowing them to enhance everything that we are. And that goes back to before the fall. You know, what the, what Catholic teaching would say when sin entered the world?

When we rebelled against God, before that time, our reason and our emotions and our appetites were all aligned. Like we didn't have to one wasn't fighting against the other, which sounds really nice. but because we're, we live in this broken world. Um, we have to realign those so to speak right in, you know, making those, and I remember CS Lewis talking about how the head needs to rule the stomach through the chest.

You know, I you're. So you're so right. It's a great, you know, I mean, and I, I, I, that sounds like abolition of man and, and Lewis, this probably is the same point. I'm not sure, but Lewis is known for saying encourages the form of the virtues in that, like, he, he has his wine and scripted letters that punches pilot was merciful until it became risky.

That it, when the, when the virtue is really tested, you will have to have courage in order to see it through. And, you know, I love that you brought up here before the fall because it's, it's. It's interesting in God's Providence that even after baptism, after we've been restored in Christ, the effects of the fall, you know, can Cubas and suffering death can Cubas meaning our kind of disordered desires.

And, uh, they remain in many states will say, well, you know, it's so interesting that they do remain and why. That we may, as they, many of 'em say that we may merit in our struggle. There's something about, I think every athlete knows this. God doesn't test us to see, are you gonna pass or not? Rather, every athlete knows this.

There's something that comes out of us that only is brought out in test that if we weren't tested, there's a greatness that wouldn't come out. If you weren't tested. And I think we know we don't want this, but we, I think we deep it. Now we know this. And so I think it's fitting in God's Providence and even look at our Lord.

I mean, he entered into our plight, uh, and traditionally, even with Mary's assumption, we've most of the traditions believe that she did in fact die as a participation in Christ suffering in death. Uh, and so even though the grace has been restored, we are sons and daughters of the father, the effects of the fall remained.

As really a way for us to participate in, enter into that great mystery of Christ that we may merit in our struggle. And you said I'd rather it not in so many times, but there's part of me deep down knows I am better for having been tested. I love that. And it makes me think of my daughter. I'm a new dad.

Um, our baby girl is actually three months today. Congrats brother. Thank you. We're we're obsessed. And it's so cool. Learning a lot about childhood development. Like learn, watching her grow. Like she's just such a sponge right now. And one of the things we've learned through a lot of the Montessori stuff is that you don't always wanna rush in and help your baby.

Like they need to struggle a little bit, like right now, She's learning how to roll over. And the temptation for me as a dad is like, oh, I'll just, I'll help you roll over. Um, but really I need to kind of hold back and say, no, this is ultimately in the end gonna make you a better, stronger person. If you do this on your own, it doesn't make I kind of sister here there a little bit, but I, I need to let her struggle, which is hard.

And when you're in the midst of it, especially as that person thinking of our relationship with God, it's like, it can be really frustrat. Yeah, no, and you're so right. And I, and I've, I've been teaching my 15th year, uh, the college students who do really well. I mean, just on the whole, we have great students, but those who have had the experience of facing adversity and persevering through it, because they, they own that.

They know they can do that. They, they become seasoned. They've been there before. You know, and I could think of examples with my kids. I mean, I, well, a couple of 'em were willing to act and, and there was this one time when, uh, I mean, honestly, like I think our most accomplished actor he's actually really talented.

Like didn't, he really got a really minor part, was super bummed. And, uh, in fact, one of his siblings got a. A bigger part and you know, it's probably in the family, like the better actor didn't get it. But long story short, I wasn't about to like call and complain to the, the, the director of the theater, anything like that.

Cause I'm like, you know, this is a bummer, but. Just embrace the moment. Embrace the moment. Whereas Lord teaching you here, um, embrace the humiliation for the moment. Be grateful for what you have, be grateful for getting a rule. Some kids didn't get any rules at all. Right. So, uh, it was just a moment of like, you're gonna, you're gonna lose some, like you're gonna get knocked down and, and it's not my job.

To make sure that that gets like fixed and switched in the moment. Rather, I'm gonna watch you grow because you're gonna get knocked down again. Life will knock you down like you, and I know this man life will hit you like a ton of bricks. And if you don't have the experience of having been knocked down, having been disappointed, having like really wanted something and come up short and the ability to persevere through that, like life is just, it's just gonna destroy us.

I mean, and it's, it's, it's about virtue. He could keep going back to it, but it's, it's all about. Virtue and virtue, not simply as like success in terms of career. Like it, it will translate in that way often, but success in life. And for me, that's what happens like, yeah, football's great. But what is the same blood, sweat and tears that I, I, I shed there.

What does that mean in the game of life and all of a sudden, like the mean of my life. Became so much more important. And I guess just to maybe give you a little anecdote, I think a lot of people let's, especially the guys out there are in this boat. I, uh, and I wasn't like a, you know, I mean, I played small college football, so I, I dream about being a Buckeye grew, you know, from Ohio, but it wasn't, wasn't, so made to overstate this, but I got accepted my high school hall of fame and we got to address the football team.

Like 17 of us from different ages, different time periods. And like so many of these guys, we didn't have Mitch time, like, you know, five, 10 minutes said, you know, all of us up here would trade places with you. High school athletes in a second. And I'm like, I'm about to contradict everything you're saying.

But so many of those guys never learn a second act. Like the highlight of their life is like junior, senior year varsity, Fred and lights. It's like, that's a really sad way to be like, I, I love my time there, but I would never go. That was a stepping stone to where I am now. And I think embracing virtue and embracing it wholeheartedly is a way to not live in the past for these kind of frankly, superficial moments that we think are the, in.

Absolutely. And it, it makes me sad too. I hear people talk about college or college years, like, oh, the best time of my life. I'm like, why not make now the best time of your life? Right. And I totally get, you know, there's good memories there. You have that community. Like I miss college in a lot of ways, but I, you know, I'm, I'm not itching to go back immediately.

I wanna live where I'm at right now. So I wanted to ask though, there's people listening right now who may be thinking like, Sounds like a lot of work and you know, our culture is so addicted to comfort. And so they might, people might be thinking, you know, this just isn't worth it. Like why, why even bother?

So what would you say? Why, why is building virtue worth the time worth the effort? Well, just look at every other walk in life that we consider important and the freedom of virtue is just like, it's just like getting in. It's just like any athletic skill that it's at first is clumsy and awkward, but over time in practice becomes fluid and effortless.

It's like learning a foreign language, which at time is clumsy and hard and difficult. It's like learning a musical instrument. I mean, all these things are examples where freedom is not the simply the ability to choose, but the freedom is the ability to do the good. And I think deep down, we want this, we see it in other areas.

And so I guess all I'm saying is, think about that same mindset. But in the game of life, and this will lead to, I mean, in so many ways it will lead to happiness. It, it will lead to a more secure and better life. Cause like for S little happiness is not so much a noun as it is a verb. Hmm. It's a verb that is the fruit of my character and living well.

What does it mean to live the human life? Well, it doesn't mean to simply choose comfort all the time. So recreation, pleasure. All that's a part of. But to make that the dominating factor is, is frankly, to lead to a life of sadness. I mean, sin leads to sadness and whether it's secular or not. I think we know that look at addiction, look at, I mean, and this is the thing is we're becoming a certain kind of person.

So I think, just think about who you want to be in five years and ask yourself how to get there. And the only way is to. Being sincere about wanting to live excellence in the little things. And it won't be perfect. It'll be a bumpy ride, no doubt. But like, I think deep down we know it's worth it. Like why would I shed blood, sweat, and tears to learn how to throw a ball better versus like becoming a better man or a woman.

And I think, I think what it is partly for us is we don't think that it's in our grasp. We think that like, you're just born that way. It's like, no. People ain't just born that way. I mean, like we have dispositions, some virtues will come easier to others and some vices will. I mean, like, so that's all true, but if you really enter into this, someone like Ariss, it'll tell you your happiness is far more in your control.

I. Then you realize because it's the fruit of your character, not simply what happens to you, whereas so much of our lives, like when I get this relationship, when I get this job, when this happens and like, we all know, man, that's a search of an end of a rainbow that ain't ever gonna come. And so it's like, maybe you, I might say this, you've tried it that way for a while.

Just give this a chance and just see what happens. Especially if you do with friends because good friends, then virtuous friends become workout partners in the game of. Who want to challenge you, but also love you and meet you with mercy when you fall. Uh, as my wife likes to say, good for good friendships are about availability.

You gotta spend time together. Vulnerability, you gotta be real and accountability. Like a friend who loves you enough to speak the hard truths. Wow. Okay. And I think for a lot of people having those friends. We don't have that. And in addition, one of the things that helped me so much is like looking to see people who are living that life, that I ultimately wanna live role models, essentially.

And I know, you know, in the Catholic church we have the saints, they live such beautiful lives of heroic virtue. And so looking to them and focusing on them, I think can be helpful as well, because so often what happens, I think is like, people think like, oh yeah, I wanna get in shape or, oh yeah. I wanna, you know, live the virtue of chassis or I wanna.

Become more courageous or whatever virtue you're trying to acquire. And we don't really know if it's worth it, cuz we haven't tasted it. But once you get to that point, you're like, man, this is amazing. Like the peace that I experienced, the joy that I experienced, this is way better than, um, you know, the unhealthy stuff I was into the sin that I was falling into.

But it's hard when you haven't tasted that. Totally. And you you're exactly right. You need levy mentors. So many people don't have heroes. We just don't have heroes anymore heroes in our lives or heroes that we look up to. You know, with our 24 hour, you know, news cycle. I mean, there's, I think we're suspicious.

Nobody's really that good. There's something lurk in the closet that I know about. And we've been, we've been, you know, kind of disappointed so often that I guess in some ways it's understandable, but we need real life heroes because virtue it's resolved, but it's also imitation. I mean like discipleship, like for the disciples with Jesus, you know, my taste, the word, the Greek word.

It really means student, but it's not student who like sits in the classroom. It's these students of a rabbi who lived with him for three years and Morris Coton is taught. So you need friends, but you need living mentors. Show me the way. So that I can imitate you. And, and as you said, the saints exhibit a, but I think we also need people in our lives that exhibit, this, that exemplify this, that show us the way that we can bounce things off of show me what it looks like to live the next decade of my life.

Give me someone just a little bit ahead of me so I can see what it looks like. What does excellence look like in the here and now? Beautiful. And the last few minutes that we have, I want to get into the tactical, cuz I think this is really where the rubber meets the road. So in your. When you want to build a virtue, how do you personally go about doing that?

And if you're willing to share, what are you working on right now? You know, everything . Yeah. So here, I think maybe what happens a lot is there's a vice that bugs us that we wish we didn't, you know, weren't addicted to didn't do. And, and the key is many virtue. Teachers will tell you, it's not just don't.

You have to practice the opposite virtue. You've gotta replace that with an opposite habit and there's gonna be struggles. It's gonna take time. But I, I really think the little things and so courage, we love courage. Like everybody loves courage. Expand what we mean by courage because you're not gonna always have physical opportunities to practice courage.

And the one that we always have opportunities for those templates, uh, because we're always gonna be eating food, things like that. So like, just take, take, I mean, just start like this take, take, um, maybe take one meal a week or one meal a day and don't do the, like the big mega fast, like what's one condiment.

You really like. What, you know, maybe you want sugar in your coffee, whatever is just, just maybe take a month and just try to try to a small, fast, a small, moderate, fast. I'm not gonna put salt or I'm not gonna use ketchup or I'm not gonna, I mean, it just on the one hand, you're probably thinking right now.

Oh, this is kind of silly. That'd be easy. Try it as soon as you try. Oh, Man and just watch yourself. It doesn't have to be forever, but just do it for month. See what happens. See, and start seeing little success stories. Uh, and I think that can go a long way. So, I mean, I think a lot of, you know, men and women struggle with this as is pornography and masturbation, things like that.

I would say there. Again, couple things. Watch what's flowing downstream. If your soul, if your mind, your heart is like a, a pool and there's a stream or a pond, or like, and there's a stream flowing into it. If that stream is dirty, it's gonna be really hard to keep this pond clean. So what's flowing into it by that.

I mean, I mean, let's be honest. Uh, what, what are my conversations? What are the movies that I'm watching? What are the, what's the music I'm listening to? What, what, what are all these things that really probably are affecting my heart and my mind in ways I'm not realizing, uh, that are gonna kind of look for an outlet.

So if you want you, can't just, you can't just get to the, the symptom. You gotta take the root out. You need accountability partners. I think also here though. What do you filling yourself up with? I mean, what is, what are you yearning for? And, and, and what if you really filled your mind with the true, the good and the beautiful, and I think here's where the conversion experience for me, the grace of Jesus Christ.

Um, what do you want Jesus that badly? And you bring him into your life. I mean, in my experience, chains were set free that had long held me down chains that I would not have thought possible. To break. So I think you have to believe it is possible. I think too often, we don't hear enough success stories in that category because I think people are afraid to sound pompous, but you need to, you need to believe that, Hey, look, masturbation is not like a, this is not like a done deal.

I mean, like there are people who don't do this. There are people who don't do this. There's people who have overcome these addictions. I think they need to hear these success stories. You know, I think sloth, I dunno if sloth is a deadly sin is sort of a sorrow at the difficulty of spiritual. Good. I think, I think that's the vice for age.

It's a sadness. It's like, I want to be great, but it's too hard. And so I roll over and die and I find myself bored, unfulfilled and restless. And so I scroll and I do things to kind of numb the pain either by pleasure or I become a workaholic and I get really super busy. So I think. Friendship, uh, accountability, fill yourself with the true, good and the beautiful, I think moments of quiet, a quiet prayer where you just listen, because that silence is loud.

I mean that when you really say I here I am, Lord, what in my life needs to change when you spend 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 minutes like that, just listening. It's really hard to live a double life because either you'll eventually either stop the sin or you'll stop praying, but it's really hard to do. For a long time.

So I think that sounds we're just so you know, there's lights, there's screens there and I'm not against it, but like, yeah. Look up at the stars and spend some time and quiet. And your life will be better for it. I think prayer becomes so much more real when you do that. And when you bring your problems to God, not like he's a divine vending machine.

Like, Hey, gimme what I need. Right. Yeah. But really to develop like a relationship and say, okay, God like, okay, Jesus, this is what I'm dealing with. These are my problems, like right. Help me. Here and then having patience to wait to see how he communicates to you, which often in my life, at least is not through an audible means it might be through a realization.

I have, it might be through a song that I hear my, you know, my spiritual director through a friend who says something through a desire. I have something like that. He communicates in so many different ways. Totally. But, but I think per often is just so stale. If I can say that because we go into it and we kind of try to present ourselves with this, you know, neat looking suit on.

Right. And just say, God, like, okay, I'm here, I'm here to impress you. Right. We're in reality. He's like, yeah, I see right through that, but he's not gonna press us for it. Cause he's a perfect gentleman. Amen. Amen. I mean, when you go to God and your weakness and your brokenness and just what you're talking about here, Even at a practical, natural level, but we know it's, there's something supernatural going on.

It's the Lord, it's his living voice. It will clarify and refine our consciences it's so we can talk about conscience all day long, but we all know that like there's things that we would never do and we do it once. And then the second time, uh, and you're kind of used to it and your conscience gets numb when you really spend this quiet time and prayer in listening and you bring these weaknesses before the Lord, he will clarify and refine our consciousness.

And, and here's the thing. There's a real danger in being your own boss when you want to be your own boss. I mean, we all know this. If my reason and my passions are at odds. Yeah. I might align my passions with right reason or as more often than not, I will cook up some good reasons to justify doing what I want to do.

And prayer is really an active, I eat my own boss. I'm coming to you. And I want to, I want to subject myself to the truth, not the truth that I recreate to match my whims, but I wanna live in accordance with objective reality. And I want you to help me see that. And, and I think anybody and everybody, if they spend time like this, they will have that experience of I've got a deeper confidence in my own judgment, because I've been really reflective about.

And I'm not the boss. I've actually gone to someone who knows far more than I knows me better than I know myself. The, and the paradox there is that it sounds like that's, uh, the opposite of freedom, kind of putting yourself under someone else. But in reality, it leads to freedom. It's such a paradox, which I'm sure we can do a whole show on.

Yeah. And that's how, but if you're coaching a baseball team, a bunch of 10 year old kids, like, Hey kids they'll swing the bat. However you. Oh, gosh, but that doesn't make the free be great back. No, I mean, but that, that's the point is like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm I'm for autonomy to have a real life coach who wants my good, even more than I do at.

Absolutely. I played baseball growing up into college and we were always drilling. And the better the coach, the better the player. That's exactly what I saw every single time. Yeah. I couldn't, couldn't agree more with you. A few things that have been helpful to me. I wanted to throw out there to you and to everyone listening, please.

Um, and you know, these things, I don't mean it to say I'm teaching you, but I, I I've just found these helpful. I wanted to mention them and feel free to elaborate on them. Um, one. Once a week. I have a reminder that comes up on my phone to like choose a virtue that I'm focused on for the week. And then every day before, you know, when I wake up, I'm trying to think of that virtue and try to put it into action to practical ways.

And then at night I kind of do a recap of my day, which, you know, Catholics call that an examination of conscience, which I know you would, if we had two hours, you would teach on all of that. So, so that has been really helpful for me. Another thing though, is. Two things getting clear, almost like a mental image of where I ultimately want to go.

Like you were saying before is exactly what you were saying before. Like, get very clear on like here's where I wanna go. Here's who I want to be. Like, that's where the role models and looking to the saints is so helpful, but then focus like. Intensely on the next step, not getting distracted by, oh man.

There's a lot of steps to get up that mountain, but really right. Okay. I wanna be at the top of that mountain. Here's what it will be like when I get there. Now I need to take these steps this step right now and doing that has been so helpful for me because otherwise I can get overwhelming. Yeah. That's no, everything you said is beautiful.

That's exactly right. You know, we talk about virtue as good habits and, and like, how do you grow out? What repeated actions like, like acts like habits. But one thing I think your point to is it's not just repeated acts. It's also, it's also acts with a renewed and vigorous intensity. So think about it.

Like your baseball swing is something off when you're gonna like fix it. You're gonna like really focus with great deal of intentionality with a great deal of intensity. On getting it right. Especially those, those first few. So that intensity of changing that intensity emotionally, that can go a long, long way.

And I love what you're saying about one of the things I like prayer and that kind of quiet prayer is to come away with an action item. Like what do I wanna work on today and bring it to mind throughout the day? Like you said, that's beautiful and the examine, uh, examin your conscience. I just think it just spent five minutes walk through your.

and give thanks, but also ask the Lord what needs to change and, and, and, and express your, your sorrow and your remorse. Like you. I think we all know everybody from the atheist, the Catholic knows you will be a better man or a woman for having done that, where so much we live life unre, reflectively, and we just go through the motions and, and even people who leave the faith, I think often, you know, some people have a big abrupt rupture, but some people are like, yeah, I don't really know how I got here, but five years went by and I kind of just.

Train and stop going and study. And one thing led to another and here I am, that's no way to live life. It's no way to live life aimlessly like that. And so that kind. Active intentional reflection. I think just, we know it. It's, it's huge. It's huge. And I think the intensity, the intensity can make up for lost time.

That was my experience. Like the intensity to wanna live differently, sped things up in a way that I never could have dreamed of obviously by the grace of our Lord, but that intensity can go a long way. That makes a ton of sense. And I remember when I would go to like a hitting coach, for example, I, you know, it was very intense.

Like we're focusing on maybe one movement in my swing. Right. And that was it. Yeah. And the reason we did that though, was to make it mess muscle memory. And then when I would step in the box in a game. I was not thinking of mechanic at all. That, that's what I learned through sports psychology and everything.

When you get in the game and you probably know, like, remember this from playing football, like, you're not thinking, all right, this is how I need to tackle you. You're just doing it. Right. And that's the goal. That's the goal. Amen. That's the freedom, right? That's the freedom. I mean, it affect the. The teaching externally has now been internalized by you to the point where you don't have to consciously think about anymore.

So my family and I, we just started jujitsu about six months ago. Nice. It's like our new, my gosh. It's we love it. So I've got, I mean, my, it was me and my two other boys. They're 14, 15 now my 10 year old daughter's in it, my six year old son and we are just jamming, but like, it's like a dance. You don't know the steps to.

And then you practice and then you get a match and it's like, you know, it's, it becomes intuitive. And that's the whole point of the virtuous life is to become the kind of man or woman who does the right thing almost instinctively and has that kind of freedom. Whereas the person who hasn't matched the virtue, when the moment comes, they have to really gin themselves up.

Whereas the person who's acquired the habit, who's made this a pattern. It would almost be unnatural to go the other way. Like the person who's been eating right for a long time. It's weird to kind of just like eat a bunch of candy bars. Like it feels kind of weird, even though at first it was really hard to eat.

Right. And eat healthy. And now it's like, it's I wouldn't wanna do anything otherwise. And the same thing happens in virtue. And I think, like you said earlier, A lot of us haven't tasted that. And so we don't know that we don't know the freedom, the happiness, the joy, the peace in for our lives, but also our relationships that comes from that.

But I think all I can say is brothers and sisters, man, it's, it's worth the risk. What have you got to lose? And, and I just promise you, you won't regret, you won't regret the blood, sweat, and tears in this area, just as you haven't regretted that kind of effort in other areas, this is even more important and more reward.

It's gold. Man, so good. And I, one final thought on that, I just think of the heroes that we admire, whether in a movie or in real life, and one common trend is that they have virtue and then that's, it that's really what it comes down to. So to someone who wants to build this virtue, they wanna learn more about the virtues, how to implement them into their lives.

Do you have any resources that you recommend in order to do. Yeah. You know, my mentor, Dr. SRE just wrote a new book called the art of living. Uh, and it's all, it's all about the virtues, the virtues as the skills to live life well, to live life with excellence and to live a, a happy life. So that that's when I wrote a book called John Paul, second air, settle back again.

Which has my story and it it's, it's, it's kind of maybe intermediate. So there's a lot of stuff on like God and science God's existence. I have my story, I get I a primer on Aristotle and kind of virtue there. And I also go through, uh, jump all seconds, love responsibility, and so kind, kind of bring it all together.

So the last time I, I taught the pH department for a while and I taught, uh, Nick kin ethics from Aristotle and general sex love responsibility. So this book kind of came outta that. Uh, I also have, um, a book on the screw tape letters, which is a little bit easier to read and that. Uh, it's called spiritual survival in the modern world.

And, uh, that's really very much. Kind of a lot of the stuff we're talking about at the very human level, the more life, the spiritual life. And again, obviously right as a Catholic, but lots of non-Catholics and, and even non-Christians have felt, have gotten a lot out of this. Those are Amazon. I have stuff for Ascension.

I've got a study on Hebrews, a study on Romans. I, I did the great adventure Catholic Bible, so that's a lot Ascension press.com. And then my wife, um, runs kind of a website where have all of our stuff@emotionalvirtuedotbigcartel.com, emotional virtue dot big cartel.com. Her book, emotional virtue. I should have said that first, uh, fantastic on this.

And this is, it refers to the relationships and lots of really hardcore like sororities. Fraternities like people who would never darken the doorway of a church have been incredibly moved by this book. My wife just has a way of saying, well, we all know it needs to be said, but you still like her afterward.

Right? So I'd recommend. Yeah. Oh, there's so many good stuff out there. I mean, you're ministry, all the things you're doing sister Miriam, James. Um, because. When you go to live this life of virtue and you really want it. There's often deep healing that needs to happen. And, and sister Miriam's work on just going deep because as she will say, often suffering that is not redeemed is gonna be transferred.

You're gonna pass it on somebody else. Somebody close to you're gonna hurt someone because you didn't tend to those deep wounds. Wow. Uh, especially with our Lord. So I, I couldn't re recommend her work. Father. John Burns, another friend of mine. His work is. And the same kind of healing category. So that's kind of a lot, but lots of great stuff out.

Well, list those all in the show notes for you guys. And one book, if it's okay. I wanted to add into, I just thought of that I read years ago was back to virtue by Peter KRE. Yes. Yeah. Love that book. And it taught me so much about virtue and about, you know, the different virtues and a little bit about, you know, how to acquire them.

So totally just wanted throw that in there, but I love the recommendations. Thank. Yeah. You know, CS Lewis's mere Christianity, the whole middle section on the moral life is fantastic as well. I, I, I, you. My wife and I are contracted with Ascension to co-write a book. And, and really we're gonna really focus on this human formation.

That's probably gonna be more 23, 20, 23, when that comes out. And then, uh, I have some other stuff coming from Ascension on the Bible and Catholic faith, but, uh, that'll be in the next year, but yeah, I think Lewis Peter CRA three. The catechism too, is, is very great. Is, is, you know, is excellent on this as well.

Uh, there's just a lot out there, so don't get overwhelmed, just pick one and just kind of, you know, go slow and, and let the snowball kind of get bigger. I have students like how, where do I start? There's so much to read. It's like, just roll the snowball. It'll get more compact. It'll get bigger. Take your time.

You don't have to do this. So good. Dr. Shaffer, thank you so much. I wanted to give you a chance to just give everyone a little word of encouragement, in addition to what you just said, especially to people who are listening right now, who, who do feel very broken, maybe they come from a lot of brokenness.

They feel stuck in life. So much fear, things that are holding them back. What, what else would you say to that person right now? Who, who does that? They feel that inkling in their heart. They're like, I want that better life, but I just, I don't know if I can do it. I don't really know how to do it. What would you say to.

I mean, can I start by just saying this? You are not damaged goods, you are not damaged goods. I think the hardest thing for us to believe in all honesty is Catholics. It's not the Trinity. It's not the sexual issue. It's to believe that the God of the universe, the creator of the cosmos actually loves me.

That the creator of the cosmos cares that much about this spec of matter. You're not damaged goods. You're not, you're not unlovable. You are worthy. You're not a prisoner to your. Start there because I think the evil one will tell us lies all, uh, uh, and the Hebrew word, Satan, Satan literally means to Hughes, like in temptation, he's our buddy come on.

But then when we fall, he's gonna dance us with shame. And I just think there's deep shame and fear. And I just wanna say you are not damaged goods, you are worthy and you are worthy of living the life that you really want to live. And you, my friend are made for more. And I know, you know, this, you know, you're made for more.

I need you to believe that, to own that, and let's make it happen and let's make it happen together. And we can be simultaneously a masterpiece and a work in progress. As my wife likes to say it ain't gonna be perfect, but just like of those other areas, the athlete, the musician, like it, ain't always perfect.

But we know what the path is, translate the same thing into what really matters. And you won't look back and you won't regret it

so much. Good stuff in that interview. I actually listened to it again. I was so good. I wanted to hear more. I wanted to. From Dr. Swofford and if you were overwhelmed by how much information was in that interview, I wanna say a few things first. You can listen to it again, just listen to it again, to absorb more of the content.

And my advice for you, like Dr. Swofford said is just focus on one virtue at a time, just focus on one thing at a time, baby steps, keep moving in that direction. Don't try to do it all at once. It won't work, do one thing at a time. What I like to do, as I mentioned in the show is just one virtue a week. And I wanted to say, if you doubt that you're capable.

Of building virtue of changing your life of building a better life for yourself and hopefully your family or your future family. I wanna tell you that's a lie. You are capable of doing it. And I'm here to tell you that you are, and if you struggle, and if you need some help, we are here to help you. Like please make use of restored, join our community.

Get some coaching consume more of our content, whatever it takes to help you to become a more virtuous person. You can start to build virtue by reflecting on these questions. The first is simple. What advices are you struggling with the most? Right now, you probably can answer that really quickly off the top of your head, but think it through, if you need to, what advices are you struggling the most with right now?

And then what virtue? Do you need to acquire to combat it? Maybe that's one, maybe that's multiple virtue, but again, just pick one and make a super simple plan to practice that virtue today, tomorrow this week, and the keyboard there is practice like Dr. Swofford said, this is like a game. This is like a sport we're.

We need to practice to acquire these skills. And as we do that more and more, it will become easier. We'll do it more quickly. And we'll. With joy. So keep at it. Even if you get discouraged, just get up again and again, and keep going. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 56.

Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful. Feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's really struggling from their broken family, from their parents' divorce, or whatever's going on in the family, share this podcast with them. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#055: I Wish My Family Was Normal | Ashlyn Frederick

If your family is broken, you’ve probably felt like our guest today who badly wanted her family to be normal. It’s such a natural desire which goes painfully unsatisfied. 

In this raw episode, we discuss:

• How an affair broke her family apart and how that’s impacted her

• How we often use excessive drinking to cope with our pain and what to do instead

• When moving away from your family could be the right thing for a time

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce (affiliate link)

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

If you come from a broken family, you've probably had the thought. I just wish my family was normal. I've been there. I felt that I think most of us have, and I remember some sort of situation at home where there was some drama going on and one of my siblings said something like, I just want our family to be whole again.

And that just destroyed me. It just struck such a nerve inside me because I felt that desire so strong. And if you can relate, you're gonna love this episode. You're gonna love my guest today. In this episode, we touched on how an affair broke her family apart and how that's impacted her. She shares how anger was a real struggle for her and what she did about it.

And she offered some advice on how you can handle your anger in a healthy way. We discussed. How many of us fall into drinking excessively in order to. With our pain and what you can do and said, and we talk about how moving away from your family could actually be the right move for you. At least for a time.

This is such a down to earth conversation, lots of good stuff in it. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm. Joey Pelli thank you so much for listening. This is episode 55, and if you haven't heard, my new book is live on Amazon. It's titled it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce.

And the sad truth is that for a lot of teens and young adults, the most traumatic thing that they've endured is their parents separation. Or divorce, but nobody shows them how to handle all the pain and all the problems that stem from their family's breakdown without guidance. They continue to feel alone in struggle, in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationships, struggles, and so much more.

And I've experienced these problems. Firsthand these exact problems firsthand. And it really shouldn't be this way. This book, it's not your fault is an answer to that problem. It features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges face by teens and young adults from broken family. Such as after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted, inadequate, and even rejected is something wrong with.

Self-harm is my way of coping. How do I stop? What's your advice for navigating the holidays in other life events? How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage? I feel broken. Like something is wrong with me. How can I heal and feel whole again? What can I do to heal my relationship with my parents?

What does God let bad things like my parents divorce. Happen and so much more, the content itself is based on research, expert advice and real life stories. And after reading this book, it's not your fault. Teens and young adults will learn how to handle the trauma of their parents' separation or divorce, how to build healthy relationships, how to overcome emotional pain and problems.

They'll learn some healing tactics to help them feel whole again. To learn about how to navigate their relationship with their parents, how to heal their relationship with God and how to make important decisions about their future. And if you come from a broken family, this book is written specifically for you.

And if that's not your background, this book is also for you because you likely know someone who comes from a broken home, it's a solid resource that you can use yourself to understand them and help them, or even gift to them, give to them so that they can benefit from it. Now, like I mentioned, you can buy the.

On Amazon right now, just click the link and the show notes. So you can go to restored ministry.com/books. Again, that's restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. Now, if you're not ready to buy, you can also get the first chapter for free. Just three easy steps to go to restored ministry. Dot com slash books, click on the button to get the free chapters.

Just fill out your name, your email, and we'll send you the free chapters again. That's restored ministry.com/books, either by the book or get the free chapters today. My guest today is Ashlyn. Frederick Ashlyn was born and raised in Denver, Colorado where me and my wife and my daughter Lucy live right now.

And as one of seven kids, her sisters and brother. Biggest support system and best friends, especially after her parents' divorce. Ashlyn was raised in a conservative, uh, Christian Catholic home, where much of her identity was based on those Catholic values. Through her parents' divorce, Ashlyn has had to reconcile and rediscover her identity and through the process of healing and understanding God's plan for her life.

Ashland made the courageous decision to move to Kansas city, Missouri. This is the first time she has lived away from her family. And the first time she moved without really knowing. Many people in that area are having a job lined up. Ashland has seen the fruits though of this decision has only flourished in Kansas city.

Ashland is now the executive director of a nonprofit in Kansas city called the mission project where she gets to combine her passions of fundraising and working with individuals. With disabilities Ashland also, co-owns a photography business with her boyfriend KJ called Ture it photography. I love this conversation with Ashland.

It's so real. It's so raw. She's so honest. She doesn't pretend to be someone that she's not. She's just honest about where she's struggling right now in her life, but she also shares where she's grown a lot where she's healed. So super refreshing, very hopeful. And like I said, very unfiltered and honest conversation.

So here's my conversation with Ashlyn

Ashlyn. It's so good to have you on the show. I've been looking forward to this for a long time. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited. Now I get to talk about all the depressing stuff that's happened in your life. It's always a yes, a heavy conversation, but it's really a good conversation. I think it offers a lot of hope to a lot of people.

So if you would. Take us back in time. Take us to that day when, uh, your parents separated, let us know. Yeah. How old were you? What happened? Yeah, so my parents actually separated twice, so we, I was in seventh grade, so I was about, I guess I was like 12 or 13 years old. And that was the first time that they separated.

So what happened was, I just remember. Getting home from school and my dad was there alone and he was really upset. I could just tell. He was just off, there was just something wrong. He is a man that doesn't show a lot of emotions. He's very quiet. He doesn't really express his emotions. So for him to be like expressing his sadness was something completely new to me.

And he, we get home from school, all my sisters and I, and he just kind of explained he's like, your mom is going away for a little bit. She did something bad and kind of. Made it seem like my mom was in trouble in some way. And at that age, I didn't understand everything that happened or had gone on behind closed doors.

But from what, what I learned through like private conversations between my parents and from things that my siblings found out by accidentally looking on my mom's cell phone, my mom had had an affair with someone. And so they separated, they didn't divorce at that time. Um, and then probably six months later, my mom moved back in and everything was sort of back to normal as much as it could be back to normal, but ever since then, so 13 years old, my parents had never had a stable relationship after that.

There was always arguing. There was always really hushed conversation, arguments behind closed doors, but we knew what was going on. All my siblings knew what was going on. Then fast forward to the second time that they separated and then eventually got divorced a year later, I was 24, I believe maybe I was younger.

Um, maybe 23 and I had just moved back to Colorado after college and I wasn't living at home at the time, but I was living with a friend very close to my parents' house. And I just remember. My dad called me one day when I was at work. And he was like, Ashton, I need to tell you something. I was like, okay, what's going on?

And I could just tell that again. He was very upset. He was very scared to tell me whatever he had to tell me. He told me that my mom had been arrested for a DUI. So the du DUI kind of launched into him. Going through a bunch of paperwork that my mom had discovering that she had essentially a nine year long affair.

So she never ended the affair that she had when I was 13 years old. And so it was devastating for my family. My mom was kind of, my dad essentially kicked my mom out of the house. because he was just so angry, which understandably. So I don't blame him for his anger. We were all angry and it just really tore my family apart.

So much of like, what I understood to be family was kind of just lost in that moment. Mm-hmm I think it was lost when I was 13 years old when the first initial separation happened, but. This is when it was known that, okay, my parents probably aren't gonna get back together. So my parents lived separately in the same house.

So my mom lived in the basement while my dad lived upstairs for probably six or seven months of their divorce process, their divorce took an entire year and eventually my dad did move out after like seven months of them living separated in the same house. Every time you entered into that house, it was just full of just sadness and very, um, uncomfortable energy.

And I think I really stepped up cuz my mom did have to do, you know, jail time for her DUI. Unfortunately. So I had to kind of step up and help my dad with my younger siblings. Cause I still had siblings living at home that weren't able to drive, but my dad worked full time as a teacher at a different school.

So I kind of stepped up and instead of like grieving the divorce at that time. My grieving period really got delayed. So because I had to take care of my siblings and kind of help my dad work through some of the stuff that he needed to work through in the home life and all of that. Right. So when my parents finally separated for good and got divorced, my, they were finally living separately and it was still very, um, painful to go to my childhood home where my mom was living.

There was still a lot of anger. Mm-hmm I think all of me and my siblings had, and of course my dad still had a lot of anger, so that's kind of what happened and when everything kind of crashed and burned so that's, that's really. My, the background of my parents' relationship and looking back, I don't think that they ever had a very good relationship.

Sure. Yeah. But they hid it very well until I was about 13 years old is when it kind of starting get to get exposed. No. Wow. I can relate so much to really everything you just said. Um, on so many levels. I, yeah. Um, my dad actually had to spend some time in jail as well because he had broken the order of protection that my mom had, um, against him.

So many times that they like. Bumped it up a level to basically make it necessary for him to serve some time. So that is like, yeah, I can relate on that. That, that kind of punches you in the gut. Like, you know, your family has problems, then all of a sudden you're like, wow, I never thought. One of my parents who, you know, you looked up to I'm sure.

I know. I looked up to literally has to serve jail time. It's devastating. And that, isn't the only thing. Right? There's so many things that you said. I, I really, to so much, I know, even now going back to my. Childhood home can be difficult. Sometimes it's easier than others, but there there's a lot of emotions that come up when you're there and all sorts of just messiness, um, messy dynamics with your parents and things like that.

So there's a lot to handle that. I think most people, uh, don't realize my wife recently. Kind of caught on more to the reality of all this. Um, when we visited, uh, my mom's house and she's like, wow, like I never realized that you guys dealt with so much and it cuz it is so hidden. So I, yeah, I, I can relate again on, on so many friends when.

You were going through all of this, you obviously had to step into that parent role. Um, you said you kind of stuffed away a lot of the pain that you were going through and you didn't really have a time to grieve and heal from it. What, how, how else did you react to that aside from stuffing it away? Yeah.

Um, I will first say that me stepping into that kind of parental role was actually a very natural thing for me to do because. for most of my life, my parents kind of put me on a pedestal. I was the only child that really entered into, um, like youth group and really exploring my faith. And so mm-hmm for some reason, I don't know what the reason is, but they.

Thought that, because I was exploring my faith, I was more mature. So they did expect a lot from me. There were times where I had to like help my parents pay the bills. And so it was nothing new to me to step into that role as like a parent. But besides that, I think some of my coping mechanisms or my, the way that I kind of dealt.

And the things that I experienced, I think I was very angry and I definitely took my anger out on my boyfriend at the time. And he didn't deserve that. And that definitely affected our relationship. Obviously we're no longer dating, but mm-hmm, I think just so much anger, like was like boiling over and I.

Know how to express it correctly. And I didn't know how to talk about it because I felt like, especially in the circle that I grew up in, I grew up in a very conservative Christian circle. Mm-hmm divorce was taboo. I mean, you do not get divorced. That's what my parents taught me. And so. There was almost like a sense of shame and fear.

Mm-hmm surrounding the situation that my family found itself in. You know, I, I just remember feeling so afraid that anyone would find out that my parents were getting a divorce. And I was 24 years old. Like I shouldn't have been so afraid of that, but I was, and I was filled with so much shame and I also really kind of started struggling with my relationship with my other siblings.

Like we were all experiencing the same event, but we were all grieving in a different way. And so I couldn't understand their feelings and they couldn't understand my feelings cuz we were all experiencing it in a slightly different way. And. So I, I think it was just kind of grappling with the chaos of it all.

I, I just felt like I was just in a world of chaos and I didn't know how to express it. And so I just kind of ignored it for a long time. I ignored those feelings. I didn't ask for help. I didn't talk about it, cuz I was so embarrassed about my family and I, I even stopped going to my childhood church that I had grown up in.

My family had been that family that everyone knew at that church, you know, there were seven kids in my family. We were like that big Catholic family. Mm-hmm and then all of a sudden you didn't really see us anymore. And I just, I was so embarrassed about that. So I stopped going to that specific church and it was really sad cuz I felt like my sense of community was lost.

I felt like I didn't know who to talk to. Or who I could trust to talk to about it because I was afraid of being judged. Totally. And there were people that did my boyfriend's, my, my ex-boyfriend my boyfriend at that time, his family did kind of have that idea or that judgment that, oh, you know, you're, you're a product of divorce parents.

So that, I think that wow kind of affected me too, because I, they had that idea. And so I thought everyone had that idea. If they didn't have divorced parents. And I felt like somehow some something was wrong with me because my parents were divorced, even though I wasn't the one that made that decision.

Right. You were totally a, a victim in the situation. You had no say over it. And man, I am so sorry. That is to be honest with you really upsetting and, and, you know, I'm sure they didn't mean to hurt you, but. Just like judging you like that, just because you come from a broken home. Uh, it's just not right.

It's not fair. It was just like a lack of understanding. And I mm-hmm even, I didn't understand what was going on with my own family or what was gonna be the outcome. And so then for someone to have even more of a lack of understanding and a lack of compassion, it's just like really difficult because you already feel confused.

mm-hmm, totally, I completely understand what you're saying and I can relate on the anger front as well. It's been something that, you know, I've had to grapple with at different periods of my life. Um, I think it, it is a natural reaction as you know, in the grieving process. That's part of it, just, this anger comes up and I've talked to people who they like can't feel anger for the longest time, for one reason or another, they just kind of feel numb.

And then the flood gets open and they feel all this anger. And that is very overwhelming. I'm just curious on that front. Cause I think there's a lot of people listening right now who do struggle with that. Um, what have you learned to help manage your anger to help deal with it in, in constructive. Yeah, absolutely.

I think the best thing that has helped me is finding a third party. So like a therapist that is not biased, that doesn't know the full story. And just being able to talk to them about those emotions and that anger that you experience. I, I still get angry to this day about my parents and it's been. You know, a few years since my parents got divorced and totally, I still experience that anger sometimes because there are times where I just wish my family was normal.

I just wish that I could not have to celebrate two Christmases or two Easters or have to, when I travel back home to Denver, have to figure out how I'm gonna see both my parents on a weekend trip, you know, and make it fair for the other parent. And I, that makes me angry. and so finding a therapist was probably one of the best things that I could have done for myself.

And it took me a long time to get to that point. I will say it was not easy for me to admit that I needed therapy. It took a long time and I tried so many different therapists and I would go for like maybe two or three sessions, but then we started getting too. and I start had to start actually telling the truth of how I was feeling about things and it scared me.

So I would quit and I would find a new therapist. Now I've been consistently with the same therapist for a while now. And it's been so healing for me, just being able to talk to someone that doesn't know all the nitty gritty that doesn't even know. The people that I'm talking about, you know, they don't know my siblings, they don't know my parents.

So I can really say what is truly on my mind without feeling like I'm venting to a friend, you know, mm-hmm , I think I did try to talk to some of my friends about it and it just wasn't healthy. And I would try to talk to the person I was dating at that time. And it just wasn't healthy because. I would unload all of this stuff and burden them with all this stuff.

When they knew my parents, they knew my family members and it kind of tainted their relationship with my own family, which that's, I don't want that either. So a third party, unbiased person to talk to has been the best thing. And then the other thing is just. Taking time to do the things that I know I enjoy.

For example, I do enjoy painting. I can't say that I'm any good at it, but it's something that I enjoy to do for myself as kind of a therapeutic thing. Sure. So I've kind of made myself a promise that, okay, I will spend one day a week painting or drawing or writing. And those are things that I really enjoy doing.

And it's helped me kind of release some of those built up emotions that. Maybe I haven't talked to someone about yet. So, and then I'm a big runner too. So running has been very therapeutic whenever I feel angry or feeling like, like emotions are building up. Running has been a great thing for me because you can, I can just go on a run and not have to think about it.

And then I kind of forget about it for the day, you know? Totally. And I was able to kind of release it all on that run. So those are just some things that I have learned about myself through the process that I know have helped me a lot. And I hope, and I encourage anyone listening right now to. Do those things as well, just find something that you enjoy and do it once a week.

And then also find someone to talk to. That's not in your friend's circle, not in your family, someone that's external that doesn't know the full story. So good. I love that advice. And I have seen that helpful in my own life too, because I, I think sometimes what happens with me is, um, actually I'm going through a hard time.

Something's happening maybe with my family or some other area of life. And. Maybe I'm down or anxious about it, or just afraid whatever emotion I'm going through, whether it be anger or another. And I think I just start to neglect myself. And then also, I almost forget what it's like to do things that I love.

And then all of a sudden, after maybe like a couple weeks, I'll do something that I love. And I'll. Wow. Like, this is amazing. Like, I feel great. Like, this is so fun to play this sport. Like I love volleyball, for example, you know, at times I go weeks without playing volleyball and then all of a sudden I play volleyball.

I'm like, I need to do this more often. And then I, you know, don't do that. And it's no, it's such good advice. And, uh, it's so simple too. But like you said, with counseling, you might know that you need to do it, but it's a totally different thing to. Do it and stay with it because like you said, sometimes maybe, um, in terms of counseling, at least the emotions can be too intense.

So I admire you for pushing through that and getting to the point that you are. It is not easy. So seriously, I admire you a lot for that. Thank you. I will also say I've also learned how to set boundaries. I. Started realizing every time I would go home, the anger would come back. And I, not that I didn't wanna see my family, but I've come to learn that there are times that it's really hard for me to go back to my childhood home.

Like, like we mentioned earlier, or totally, it's really hard for me to celebrate Christmas, cuz it just doesn't feel the same when the whole, whole family's not together. And so those things like really started to affect me. I would get really angry after going home for a weekend or celebrating a holiday.

And I still visit my family, but I've learned, okay. When I visit Colorado, I'm gonna stay with a friend as opposed to staying at my childhood home mm-hmm and kind of creating that boundary and that balance to recognize, okay. Staying in my childhood home has not been healthy for me at this point. So. I'm gonna say with a friend so that I can enjoy my Christmas so I can enjoy my weekend with my family and catching up with my siblings and my parents, and then having a place to go afterwards.

So I can just kind of process and kind of take the time that I need to kind of rejuvenate after that. So, totally has another piece of advice that I would definitely tell anybody that. Find a different place to stay when you're visiting your family. If it's hard for you to go back home. And experience those emotions all over again.

That's so good. Yeah. You need that space to, like you were saying decompress and another trend I've noticed in my own life. And a lot of the people that we work with through sword is that when we're in those scenarios, being at home, we tend to just neglect our basic needs. Like we don't sleep as much, or we just don't.

How we should, or like you said, exercise and do all those basic things that we should be doing to take care of ourselves, but for one reason or another, we just tend to neglect our needs. So I think if you create that physical space, like you're saying, you're probably more likely to get better sleep to, you know, maybe get a workout in, eat a little bit of healthier.

Um, so I think, I think that's really wise. I wanted to circle back to the affair. Yes. So that is such a huge. Thing in your life, not just, you know, between your mom and your dad, how specifically did that affect you then? And even now? Yeah, I mean, it definitely, obviously the OB most obvious thing is that it definitely broke my trust and understanding of what true marriage is.

It didn't make sense to me that, you know, 26 years ago, my parents stood on the altar. Said their vows made all these promises to each other and then they didn't keep it. I still am confused by that. It makes me weary of marriage. It makes me kind of scared of marriage around the time that my parents were getting divorced.

I was also going through a breakup with an ex-fiance. And he was cheating on me too. So that combined with my parents, you know, that my parents scandal and all of that, it was, it made me question relationships a lot. And I just didn't really trust anybody moving forward. So after my parents got divorced and I started dating again, I just, just didn't really ever open myself up to anyone because I didn't want to get to the point.

Of, you know, essentially falling in love again and then down the road being cheated on because I, in my head, I thought just everybody cheated , you know? Yeah. I just thought that it was normal behavior because that's what had been shown to me essentially since I was 13 years old. And. Even still now I'm in a very stable, healthy relationship.

We've been dating for two years, even now. I still am like afraid that I'm gonna find out that he cheated on me, even though he has never indicated that he is not that type of person at all. He's the most loyal person I've ever met, but it's still just kind of like a question in the back of my head, like, oh my gosh, what if this happens again?

What if this is truly the behavior of everybody in this world? and I think too, I just don't really trust my mom very much with a lot. Like I just don't really tell her much. So it does affect my relationship with my mom, just honestly, it, it definitely makes me weary about sharing details about my own life and personal details about my own life with her.

Because one of the things that kind of happened when we discovered that my mom had an affair again. My sister, one of my sisters, she had later on shared with us that she knew that my mom. Had been cheating on my dad for however long she was, but that my mom had convinced her to not say anything. And so knowing that really affected me too, because it just seemed like we were kind of taught and raised to lie.

Like we were taught that it's okay to lie. And I know that rationally, it's not okay to lie. So I'm also afraid that, oh my gosh, what if I become like my mom? You know, I'm always afraid of being like my parents and I, I know myself well enough to know that I would never cheat on my significant other, or I would never cheat on someone or lie to someone mm-hmm , but it's still in the back of my head.

Like what if I become like that? Because that's kind of the home that I was raised in. Totally. No, and I have so many of those same fears too, and kind of in the back of my head, even though I know my wife is, you know, a good woman and she's faithful and everything like that, I ask a lot of those same questions even now, you know, years into marriage.

And it's something that has gotten much better with time. It's not like I'm walking around constantly thinking like, oh, she must be cheating on me or she's gonna just up and leave. But it does, it scars you on such a deep level that it's hard to maybe ever. I don't wanna say ever, but maybe ever get that totally outta your system.

Mm-hmm and I, I think we can progress to such a point where it's not a major concern or maybe even it isn't even a concern at all, but man, you can't undo that. You just can't undo that. And I totally get that. That would be in the back of your mind, even though the guy you're with is a great guy. Yeah. And you are a good woman and you wouldn't do that, but there's that fear.

I know that I feel. And so many people like us feel of repeating. What we saw our parents do. Mm-hmm and, uh, it can be very debilitating. It can be, it can be very much so I wanna, uh, switch over to relationships. You've already talked quite a bit about that, but I am curious, uh, in what other ways that maybe we haven't discussed yet, have you seen your relationship broken marriage?

You know, eventually their divorce affect your own dating relationships. Yeah. So I kind of touched on it a little bit, but after I, after my parents got divorced and I started dating again, it just definitely made me never really enter fully into a relationship. So with that being said, like, I definitely, um, struggled with my modesty and my purity because.

I was, I think I was trying to fill whatever wounds my parents had caused, but then the next easy step was just to leave after that, you know? And I think also it definitely makes me question if I ever truly, truly, truly wanna get married, I do wanna get married. I know that, but I think it makes, I am afraid of marriage.

And so. In any relationship that I had that was longer than, you know, six months marriage always came up as like a topic of conversation. And it just always made me very anxious. I, I had so much anxiety about that topic and it really took. A long time for me to kind of get over that anxiety in my new, in my current relationship, not new, we've been dating for two years, but, but then on the same hand, like token on this other hand, I wanted to get married so bad because I didn't want the person to leave.

Mm-hmm . So on one hand I was terrified of it because I didn't wanna repeat my parents' mistake, but I also put the pressure on to whoever I was dating that we needed to get married because we need to. Solidify this we can't, you know, you can't leave. Those are just two really extreme, unhealthy ways of thinking and, and dealing with a relationship.

I think I just kind of allowed myself to be used a lot by men, unfortunately, because I just didn't really see a lot of value in myself because of the same phrase, like, oh, I'm just a product of divorce, you know? Like I'm worth nothing else because I'm a product of divorce. There's clearly something wrong with me.

And that affected so many of my relationships, my current boyfriend, I mean, probably for the entire first year of us dating, he was so patient with me and he was so patient with my insecurities because. Day after day, he had to like, try to convince me that I was worth more mm-hmm and that's a really sad reality, but it's also really beautiful that he was so patient with me and stayed with me through all of that.

Until I could start believing it for myself. Mm-hmm , that's beautiful. I think even though it was really hard to get to that point, something really beautiful did come of it. You know, not all people are that patient and they probably get really sick of people being insecure and not having a lot of confidence, but he was very patient and he was very.

Encouraging. And he did give me a lot of, like, he basically gave me a confidence boost because of how well he treats me and how, how much he just cherishes me. And I have never really found that because I was just kind of throwing myself at these guys that I would be UN dating apps. Totally. I wasn't respecting myself in those relationships.

Then I met my current boyfriend and I slowly started to respect myself because he respected me. I think that's suddenly how it affected my, my relationships. And, and then also just like how I've grown from that. Sure. As well. No, that's amazing. And I think it's a good lesson to anyone listening who maybe doesn't come from a broken home, but they're dating someone from a broken home or maybe they're married to someone from a broken home.

It does require a lot of patience. Like I know same thing with my wife. She, you know, just had to go slower with me. I wasn't as quick to trust as some people are. And it was, yeah, I. Was afraid, really afraid and dealt with, like you said, crippling anxiety, um, at times about this whole topic of marriage and just so much fear of repeating what I saw in my parents' marriage.

Just not wanting that. And like you said, kind of going between those two extremes on, on one hand, just wanting to run the other way when it came to marriage. And on the other hand, um, honestly I struggled. Idealizing marriage just making it into completely the opposite of what I saw in my family and wanting that for myself to a point where it got like unrealistic.

It's like, no, that's not what it's meant to be. That's not real. That's not human. That's something else. It's some ideal that just doesn't exist in this world. And so I. I, uh, dealt with that too. And so I think it's good for people who don't come from our backgrounds to really listen to what you're saying here and understand that, okay.

Like there's not something wrong in the sense that this person you're dating has just like the only one in the world who feels this way. And it experiences these emotional problems and these fears and all that. No, it's actually pretty typical for people like us. And it does require a lot of virtue, a lot of patience, like you said, but your continued love, of course, assuming this is what, where you're meant to be, um, is incredibly healing.

That there's so much beauty to that. Obviously it's not supposed to be the primary source of our healing, but it it's such a huge part of it. and, and it has been in, in my marriage too. And I'm so happy to hear that you, um, you, you have a boyfriend like you do, it's, it's really, really beautiful going back to coping.

So you mentioned some, you know, the unhealthy ways that you had coped. Was there anything else you wanted to add on that front? Yeah, I mean, I definitely also coped with alcohol alcohol, a very big coping mechanism for me. When I lived in Denver still, I lived with a few of my close friends and we would throw parties at my house all the time.

And they, I mean, we were in the young adult Catholic community, so it was always other Catholics. You know, we would throw a Halloween party or a Mardi girl party, but I really used those social events to drink a lot. And it was because I just could not deal with the anxiety. And the anger and the sadness that I felt over my family.

So alcohol was kind of like my escape for a long time until I moved to Kansas city. When I moved to Kansas city, I only had one other friend here. And so my drinking kind of just stopped because, well, there was no one to drink with, I wasn't throwing parties anymore. Yeah. And I actually had to feel the emotions that I had been holding onto for so long and covering up with alcohol and.

You know, I had a few slipups here and there, but I also realized that, okay, you know, the history of my family, my mom had a DUI. I don't think that she was ever technically an alcoholic. Maybe she was like a closet alcoholic, but just the fact that she got a DUI shows that. This might be something that I struggle with.

Maybe I need to take a step back and not drink for a while. So I had committed to. A year of sobriety. Um, actually just a few months ago, like back in July, I was like, okay, I'm gonna commit to a year of sobriety. And God is really funny because a week after I made that commitment, I found out that I was pregnant.

So , you know, I just think it's really funny the way in which God is like giving me grace, because I don't know if I could have done a year of sobriety, but now I have to, because you know, I'm carrying a child and I. Not drinking alcohol for the past few months has been just so eye opening. Like I'm actually sticking with therapy for the first time in, in my entire life.

I'm actually able to express my emotions in a healthy way and then cope with them in a healthy way, instead of just being like, okay, like it's Friday night, like let's go out and drink. And not that alcohol is bad. But totally. Yeah, for me, it was definitely a coping mechanism instead of stopping at one or two drinks, I would drink three, four or five, you know, and, and that was just really unhealthy for me.

And it was my way of just numbing myself. So I couldn't feel. The confusion and the anxiety that my family's situation made me feel totally. And I think it's just, it's so common on so many fronts in our culture for people, our age to, you know, just go out and have fun and. Drink and get drunk and all that.

So it's, you're, you're definitely doing something, um, so good for yourself and I just commend you for it. It's it's amazing. And I think so many of us have different ways of coping. Like for one person, it might be alcohol for another person. It might be porn for another person might be cutting it. There's just so many different, uh, different things that we fall into that just aren't, you know, good for us at.

Some of the things that are done in excess other things that maybe should just never be done, but that's amazing. And I wish you luck in I'm sure. I know you're gonna do great. Thank you with, uh, with getting through that. That is not an easy thing. What, uh, what you mentioned counseling, you mentioned running, you mentioned a few other.

Things that you've done, like painting to help you cope and heal. Uh, was there anything else that's been really instrumental in your own healing process? Yeah, actually moving to Kansas city was really instrumental. I had kind of discerned and prayed about moving to Kansas city for probably about six months before I actually committed to moving here.

And one of my fears about moving was, well, I grew up in Denver. My entire family is in Denver. I need to be. Near my family in case something happens, but it wasn't until my sister, she lived in Ireland for a year and I went to go visit her when she was over in Ireland. And I was just kind of telling her, I was like, I'm just like not happy in Denver.

I feel so much anxiety living there. I feel so much pressure that I have to like be the sibling that takes care of my younger siblings. And I just feel like I haven't had any time to like really. Figure out how I'm feeling and how I'm dealing with the divorce. And I was telling my sister all of this and she's just listening.

She's like, Ashlyn, why don't you just move? And at first I was like, no, no, no. Like I can't do that. I can't move. And she was like, Ashlyn. I moved across the world, you know, and it's been so totally healing for me and not to say that you should run away from your problems, but there is something to be said about creating your own independent life.

And I had not been able to do that since my parents got divorced. You know, I had been thrown into this parental role. I had been thrown into just making sure that all my siblings were okay and making sure that nothing else in my family broke. I think ultimately my sister was like, you should just do it.

Like this is gonna help you. You're not running away from your problems. Your siblings are still gonna be there. You can still be a support system for your siblings, but you need to be your own support system for a little bit. Six months later, I moved to Kansas city and I just didn't even realize how healing that would be because now I can really, truly.

Have that distance that I needed. Mm-hmm to be able to process everything that had gone on the last few years, cuz I had like no time to process it until I moved two years ago. And I think it's been just been so instrumental because I don't think that if I had ever moved, I don't think I would have gone to therapy as long as I have.

I don't think I would've been honest about my feelings. And then also another thing that I'll mention is. Through moving to Kansas city and knowing how to like name my emotions and name my struggles and name my wounds by, by name, you know, identifying my wounds. That's helped me in my current relationship because now I'm able to be honest about this is really bothering me.

Mm, in my relationship, like, I can be honest with him about, you know, this isn't sitting right with me and we need to talk about it. Right. Whereas two years ago I could have never done that. Cuz I was not able to talk about my own. Feelings or anything. And I think moving to Kansas city really was a launching path for me to be able to truly open up my heart, to healing and opening up my heart to honesty and being honest with myself, cuz I don't think I was being honest with my myself and.

You know, it's not to blame Denver or to blame my family, but, you know, sure. I had kind of taken this role upon myself while I was living in Denver. I needed to be like the one that protected my family. And that's just the furthest from the truth. I never needed to do that. And I think moving to Kansas city kind of proved that because I learned that I can be independent while also still supporting my siblings.

Um, I can be an independent person that expresses their emotions in a healthy way without having to shove them away and not express them. So mm-hmm, moving to Kansas city has just been such a saving grace for me. So good. And I think there's an important lesson in what you just said about moving away.

Don't feel guilty guys. Like if you need to do that for a time again, I think Ashlyn's wise to balance that advice by saying you don't wanna just do it to run away from your problems, but you might need some space and that's okay. You don't need to feel guilty about it. You can do that and you can so love your family from afar.

Um, in different ways and that's exactly what you're trying to do, Ashland. I know that's what I'm trying to do, cuz my family is from the Chicagoland area and, and I don't live out there. And part of the reason I moved away too, was because it was a lot to handle. And the thing I felt most guilty about, I think was, uh, my siblings like feeling like I was just abandoning them.

But what I've realized over the years is that me pursuing. What I'm called to do in life, both in work and in my, you know, marriage now, it was really, um, good. Not only for me, but for my siblings too, for to model, hopefully for them, not that my wife and I have a perfect marriage, we have our struggles for sure.

But to some model for them like, Hey, you can have this too. Like, you don't need to be afraid of it. You can have it too. And it can be really good and it can be really beautiful. And I, I think in the long run, looking at kind of the long game, um, Doing, what I did was really good and healthy. Not only for me, but also for, for all of them as well.

And again, it's not like you're just walking away guys and never talking to your family. Again. Certainly there are situations where you need to take a break from talking to maybe one or both parents, or even relatives, perhaps even siblings too, but take the time and the space you need. Again, you're gonna become a healthier, more whole person so that in the future, you can be better at loving them setting boundaries and doing all those things that we need to do to navigate this really messy reality in our lives.

So such a good lesson Ashlyn, and I, I wanted to ask you too. Now that you've been working through a lot of this, I'm sure you would say that you're still work in progress and I am too. But how, how's your life different now that you've been through doing therapy and doing all those things that you mentioned?

Yeah, I think my, my life is just so much more stable, I think. Um, now that I'm not spending every weekend drinking and partying and. You know, coping with my emotions in an unhealthy way. And then also, because I've had kind of like that time and space away from my parents, I have been able to form better relationship with my parents for a while.

I didn't even talk to my mom. I didn't want anything to do with her. Um, and then like after a little bit, I didn't even talk to my dad for a while. And now I, I do think that my relationships with both my, my parents, they both improved. And I, I don't think that that would've ever happened if I had never taken the steps to enter into therapy and just learn how to set boundaries.

And my life is just so much more peaceful. I think too, you know, I, I'm not having to kind. Fight with my parents out of protection for my siblings and mm-hmm , um, I think that's just really powerful. It's just a really, my life is just so much more peaceful. And I wouldn't say that it's happier. I mean, there are difficult times still, and I still struggle with my parents divorce as I'm sure I will for the rest of my life, but I've, I've also grown to kind of appreciate my family in a different way.

My both my parents are remarried or my mom's getting remarried in November, so, okay. I've, I've been able to like, kind of welcome new members to my family, you know, my step parents and I don't call them my step parents, but that's what they are, you know, but I've been able to like welcome these people into my life and.

Kind of opened my heart to new people, even though I may not agree with it. I may not agree that my parents got divorced and I will always wish that my parents were still married, but I also recognize, okay, if this is making my, my dad happy or is this person's making my mom happy, then I'm gonna be happy for them.

And I will do everything I can to still have a relationship with my parents for a while. I thought I was gonna completely cut my parents out of my life. . But I also realized that that wasn't healthy either. Like that's not what I desired either. And I do understand that some people have to do that with their family members or what have you.

But I know that my parents still love me and they will still do anything and everything for me. if I needed it. So I was just never willing to completely cut them out of my life. Mm-hmm so I, I made it a goal of mine to just have a more peaceful relationship with them. And it has, it has been like that because I've been able to set the boundaries that I need to set.

I've been able to tell them when they cross a boundary mm-hmm and now we just have a more adult respectful relationship. Where I respect them, they respect me and we are able to just kind of live our own lives and then come together when it's a holiday and celebrate that holiday in peace. Instead of talking about the divorce or talking like angry at each other, or, you know, stuff like that.

All the things I, I get you. Yeah. That's beautiful. You've come a long way and I'm sure there's even more ahead for you. Um, if you stay on this path of healing really, really beautiful. Uh, I did wanna ask you, you've been a member of resorts community for the longest time. I'm just curious. Uh, what's been most helpful, um, for you that, that we've done, that we've produced that we've provided.

Yeah, absolutely. I. Hearing all the stories that you guys have shared on the podcast and then reading all the stories from the blog, and then I've actually gotten connected and made friendships with a few of the other members. It it's just helped me realize that I'm not alone and that, you know, my story is not that abnormal.

It's not that different than a lot. And I, because I think at the time when my parents got divorced, I thought, my gosh, my family must be the only family that. Is this messy, you know, you kind of feel like you're the only one. Totally. That's not true. Like the reality is, is this is a very sad reality for a lot of families.

And so to know that my story can be shared with other people and they are also sharing their story with me just has helped me heal tremendously. It also has provided kind of like a sounding board for my, for myself, like. Saying, am I crazy to feel this way? And someone saying no, that that's a product of, you know, that's the consequences of being a victim from a divorce.

Like we are victims and recognizing that we are not at fault and that this was something that was done to us has just been so powerful in my own life. And. Allowing myself to say, yeah, I'm struggling with this. What do you guys think that is just tremendously helpful for me to be able to have my feelings acknowledged by, by this community.

I mean, it really has become a community for me, a very. Healing community for me. And I just really appreciate how everything that I share through from my own experiences, that's just acknowledged and accepted. And then I'm given encouragement to keep moving forward. Amazing. Thanks for sharing that I don't mean to too around horn.

I just did wanna know kind of what's been helpful and what maybe hasn't been, but so good. And we'll link to, uh, some of the articles that, um, Ashlyn has written. So you guys can check those out. You're, uh, a good writer Ashlyn. And I remember the latest article that you shared, just talking about your story, um, was really powerful and beautiful, and that actually led to this interview.

So thank you for, for coming on. Thank you for being here. If people wanna connect with you, if they wanna talk with you, what's the best way to. Yeah. Um, just find me on Facebook. My name is Ashlyn Frederick, or you can, I mean, if you're in the restored group on Facebook, you can find me through that and just Facebook message me.

I'm also on Instagram, but I honestly don't know my Instagram handle. No worries. So, let me look it up really quick. Oh, it's Ashland underscore Kayla and Kayla is spelled K a I L a H. So you can definitely find me on Instagram as well, or just email Joey and he can get us connected as well. Yeah. Sounds great.

Happy to do that. And, um, yeah, we'll throw all that in the show notes for you guys, so you can contact Ashton if you'd like to, and there's a good incentive to, uh, join the ReSTOR community. You can talk. Ashley connect with, uh, the other people there, cuz there's, we're met over 50 people at this point. Um, and we're constantly we're, we're not constantly, I should say we're recently trying to find better ways to make the community even more valuable.

So lots of cool things coming, uh, in an upcoming months and year. Uh, so Ashton, thank you so much for being here. I wanna give you the last word. Um, you're, you're very wise. You have a lot of good things to say very articulate. So I'm really glad that, uh, you're able to join us and share, um, your story and your advice with our audience.

But I do wanna give you the last word. And so the question is this, uh, what words of encouragement would you give to someone who is listening right now feels really just broken and they feel stuck in life because of their parents' broken marriage, their divorce separation. What advice would you give.

Yeah, first and foremost, I will just say that you're not alone and that it's, it's okay to feel the way that you're feeling and you should acknowledge those feelings and allow yourself to feel those, but don't dwell in them for too long. I will also say that it does get better. Give yourself grace, be patient with yourself.

Allow yourself to explore healthy ways of healing that work for you, whether that's going for a run or going to therapy, I would encourage everyone. That's been through something like this to go through therapy, even if it's just for a few months, therapy is just something that's. Kind of taboo in our society, but it has really truly been the most helpful thing for me.

So I would just encourage you and anyone who's gone through this to just try to explore it and give it some time, um, to work, but also just know that there is a community for you in restored and that any member would be willing to talk to you. If you just need someone to vent, to, or ask questions to.

Find find a community like that. What maybe it's not restored, but I hope it is. But if it just find a community where you can truly talk about these things, cuz I think sharing your story is so important for healing and it's helped me with my own healing journey and I encourage you to just share your own story.

Because it will help aid in your healing.

If you wanna email Ashlyn, her email is in the show notes, or you can hit her up on social. Again, all those links are in the show notes. A question for you to think about when you're hurting, how do you deal with it? Give that some thought, try to identify the ways that you deal with your pain, that you deal with your problems.

You might be surprised most of us, I think, think that we know how we deal with our pain. We know how we deal with our problems, but if you actually kind of study it, you'll realize that there might be some unhealthy things going on. So first, just try to recognize that. And then you can make a plan to deal with them and to cope healthy ways instead of unhealthy ways.

So again, when you're hurting, How do you deal with it? If you wanna join ReSTORs online community, you can do that in three easy steps. Just go to ReSTOR ministry.com/community. Again, ReSTOR ministry.com/community. You'll just fill out a form and then we'll add you to the group. And some of the benefits to joining is you'll have a safe place to speak.

Openly about the pain and struggles that you face. And this is with people who get you, who come from broken homes as well, young people who come from broken homes, it will help you not feel so alone and will also challenge you to grow into a better, stronger person. Again, if you wanna join our online community, just go to ReSTOR ministry.com/community.

If you wanna share your story with restored, we'd love. To read it. And what we'll do is we'll turn it into an anonymous blog article, but some of the benefits first reflecting on your story is actually healing on a neurobiologic level. It makes you healthier, makes your brain healthier. Writing your story specifically is also healing.

There's been studies that have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events. In their lives are less depressed. They're less anxious, they're healthier and they're happier and so much more. And if you share your story with someone who is able to receive it, empathetically, it's actually healing as well on a neuro biological level.

And then also it gives guidance and hope to people like you, who come from a similar background who are maybe struggling as well. And so again, if you wanna share your story, just go to restored ministry.com/story restored ministry. Dot com slash story. There's a form there. That's gonna guide you in telling a short version of your story.

It takes a little bit of time to do, but not much at all. And then we'll turn that story into an anonymous blog article and we'll share with our audience. So share your story now. Restored ministry.com/story. The resources mentioned during the show notes ever stored ministry.com/ 55. Thank you so much for listening.

If this has been useful, feel free to subscribe. And if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' separation divorce, or even their broken marriage, share this podcast with them, I know it's gonna be helpful. And always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#054: How to Stop Damaging Yourself with Your Words | Chris Stefanick

If you spoke to your friends the way you spoke to yourself, would those relationships become abusive? The words you tell yourself are often filled with lies, but you might not even realize it.

But those lies become your identity, which then dictates the quality and happiness of your life. Thankfully, our guest today can help you beat the lies and discover your real identity. In this episode, we discuss:

• Why it is so important to uncover the lies you believe about yourself

• How it’s simple yet difficult to replace those lies with the truth

• Two tactics and resources you can use today to change the way you talk to yourself and renew your identity

Buy Chris’s book: I AM: Rewrite Your Name—Reroute Your Life

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• I AM: Rewrite Your Name—Reroute Your Life

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As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

I have a question for you. If you spoke to your friends, the way that you talk to yourself, what would happen? Would you even have any friends for so many of us, those relationships would quickly turn abusive, but the problem is most of us don't even realize how badly we talk to ourselves. The subconscious second nature.

The words we say inside our heads are often filled with lies that we're not even aware of, but those lies told and believed long enough become our identity, which then dictates the quality direction and happiness of our lives. Does that sound important? It absolutely is. Thankfully my guest today can help you discover the lies.

You tell yourself and find your real identity. And don't worry, we're not talking about some phony self-help strategy with no substance. This stuff is actually helpful. You're gonna get a lot out of this episode, like learning why it's so important to uncover the lies you believe about yourself, how it's simple yet.

Difficult to replace those lives with the truth. And you're gonna get two tactics and two resources that you can use today to change the way you talk to yourself and discover your true identity. This is a very relevant topic for those of us who come from broken families. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce. Separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host joy. Elli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 54 before I introduce my guests. I'm so excited to share with you guys that the book I've written for you is now live on Amazon.

You can buy it there, but first, a little background on the book. The sad truth is that most teenagers and young adults from broken families are traumatized by their parents' divorce or separation, but nobody gives them the guidance. They need to navigate the pain and problems. And without that guidance, they continue to struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles, and much more.

And I experienced this stuff firsthand. I experienced this exact problem growing up and it really shouldn't be this way. My new book is an answer to that problem. The title is it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. And it features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges.

By young people like us from broken families in the book. I answer questions like I struggle with low self-esteem. How can I become more confident after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted, inadequate, and even rejected as something wrong with me. Self-harm is my way of coping. How do I stop?

How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage? I feel broken. Like something's wrong with me? How can I heal and feel whole again, what can I do to heal my relationship with my parents? Why does God let bad things like my parents to force happen? And if you read the book and you implement the advice in your life, you're gonna see a lot of benefits such as you're gonna learn how to cope with your pain in healthy ways.

Instead of unhealthy ways, you'll become a better, stronger, more virtuous person. You'll learn how to overcome emotional problems. You'll be given tactics to build healthy. Relationships, you're gonna find evidence based strategies that you can use to heal. You'll learn how to navigate your relationship with your parents.

You'll improve your relationship with God. You'll make better decisions that build a better future for yourself. And most importantly, you'll be given tools and resources to get the help that you need. And guys. This is not theory. This is practical down to earth. Common sense advice. That's based on research, expert, advice and stories that we've heard from people like you, people who come from broken families.

And this book is specifically written for anyone who comes from a broken home, especially teenagers and young adults whose parents are divorced, separated, or really struggling in their marriage. And if that's not you, you probably love or lead someone who comes from a broken family. Maybe that's your kids, a cousin, a boyfriend, a girlfriend, perhaps you lead them as a pastor youth minister.

Teacher, coach, whatever this book makes an awesome gift, it really gives them guidance or gives you deeper insight into what they're struggling with. So you can help them. You can buy the book on Amazon right now. Just click the link in the show notes, or you can search. It's not your fault on Amazon. Plus if you order the paper back in September, 2021, you'll get the ebook in audiobook for free.

And to claim those free bonuses, just go to restored ministry.com/books. Again, restored. Dot com slash books, click on the September bonus button, fill out that form and then we'll email you the free ebook and audiobook. If you're not ready to buy, you can get the first chapters free. It's really easy. Just go to ReSTOR ministry.com/books.

Click on the button to get the free chapters. Fill out your name, your email, and then we'll send you the free chapters again. Restored ministry.com. Books. I'm so excited to share this book with you. We've been working on it for a long time and the feedback we've gotten so far has been really solid. So I know it's gonna be helpful for you.

A good tool, good resource to help you navigate the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. Again, you could get the free chapters that restored ministry.com/books or buy the book on Amazon today. My guest today is Chris. Chris is an internationally acclaimed author, speaker and television host, who has devoted his life to inspiring people to live a bold contagious faith Chris's live seminars, reach more than 85,000 people per year.

His reality TV shows videos. And radio spots reach millions of people and his educational initiatives are turning the tide in the Catholic church. He authored the chosen confirmation program, which has already formed more than 500,000 teens. Chris is actually a graduate of the same university that I went to Franciscan university of Stoneville.

He's also the founder and president of real life Catholic and nonprofit, which operates as the headquarters for Chris's various initiative. Above all. Chris is proud to be the husband to his wife, Natalie father, to their six children and grandfather to his granddaughter. Don't wanna make you wait any longer.

Here's my conversation with Chris Stephanic

Chris. Thanks so much for making time to be here with us today. May it's an honor. Thank you for having me. I think this is such a relevant topic for people, especially who come from broken families. And in the book you say that there's a war of words happening in your mind. The outcome of that war.

Determines your destiny. That's a bold statement. What do you mean by that? Uh, the, uh, the devil's real victory in our life. We, we think it's maybe a sin we committed for some, uh, wound we're suffering from, or, or, or something hard we've been through. No, I, I don't. The real victory is when we experience a, a difficulty or commit a sin and then label our.

Based on that, because then we continue to live out of that identity for the rest of our lives. You know, the, the way we speak to ourselves and the way we talk to ourselves and label ourselves shapes how we feel, which shapes how we act, which shapes how our entire life pens out. So really the, so many of the, the spiritual battles we face.

So many of the personal battles with getting to the next level. In relationships in career in happiness. So many of it comes back to when you dig deep enough, how you see. How you talk to yourself, it's that war, that fundamental war of words that determines really the outcome of your life. Mm-hmm uh, and, and a brother.

We, we, we really, we really can't get it wrong. We can't keep getting it wrong, you know, and I'm so tired of seeing people get it wrong. And you could tell there's times where I'm getting it. When people are walking through life, looking like they got the crap beat out of them. When they look tired and heavy.

It's so often because we're beating ourselves up on the inside and God's word tells us who we are. I mean, if you're a child of God, if you believe the things in the Bible, you actually believe the maker, you believe you're you're, you're crazy enough to believe that this universe didn't come from nothing.

That there's a. And that he loves you. If you're a Bible believing Christian, that that's the really crazy, amazing, beautiful part that makes life beautiful. And, and then he would die for you. If, if you just believe that as a matter of faith and leave it at church and don't let it inform the dialogue happening inside your head, you're not really experiencing a redeemed life.

And I'm just so tired of seeing the people of God look so tired we should look different. Absolutely. I think a lot of the people that we work with that restored often just feel so hopeless. And I think this ties into that. So well, I'm curious, what are some of the most common things that people say to themselves that distort their identity?

So I, I, I wrote a book about this called I am, and I have a program, a 33 day challenge program called I am. And the, the book goes through various wrong identities and, uh, replaces the, the lives, tell ourselves with God's work. And the, uh, the, the program is a little more focused in, in a straightforward journey.

And, uh, it's man, I'll tell you there's it, it could be any number of lies. I mean, I, I, I kind of pinpoint a couple key ones just to help people form the habit of becoming aware of what's going on inside so they could pinpoint their particular lie. But I, but I really think that whatever God is calling you to, however, he's calling you to glorify him, to magnify him forever.

The evil one sees that, and he tries to help you come up with a name for yourself that directly opposes. It's a matter of finding out what lie you're telling yourself, finding the opposing truth, and then engaging your will in the process, learning to start renouncing that lie and claiming the truth. And I, I think of Peter, it was one of my favorite scripture stories about this.

Here's Peter called to be the chief of the apostles that the first Pope of, if you're Catholic, you believe he's called be the first Pope. If you're not even a believer, you clearly think this guy's called to be a great leader. First time he encounters Jesus, he says, get away from me. I'm a sinful. So he named himself, he named himself sinful man.

He told Jesus his name and he, he did this in a moment where he could see that he was being singled out and called. He'd get away from me, Lord. I'm a simple, you got the wrong guys. What he was saying. I don't measure up. There was a lot packed into that statement and his name was Simon at the time and Jesus changed his name and he changed his name in a place called Caesar Philippi, where there's this humongous rock overshadowing, this town.

And I've been there. It's, it's, it's a mind blowing place and it's not part of the, it was not part of the Jewish community. It was a pagan. It was on the board of Lebanon. So there was no reason for them to even go here and it probably took a day and a half just to walk there. Jesus took a lot of time thinking about this location.

yeah. And, and, and went way out of the way it was, it was the opposite direction from Jerusalem to Galilee way outta the way, just to get this image in Peter's head. Peter you named yourself, you name yourself sinful, man. I have a new name for you, right in front of that massive rock named him, Peter, which means rock.

And why, why would he do that? Why would he go through the trouble? Because he was gonna make him the chief of the church in the early church, the, the, the fir the first folk. He wanted his identity to form how he led, how he acted, how he felt. He knew that everything hinges first and foremost on how Peter saw himself.

And he wanted that. To stick in his brain. Every time someone said his name, every single. You massive rock passing the fish. a little dramatic, right? Right. Yeah. I'm, God's, God's dramatic. Like that love is dramatic. Yeah. So, uh, that's an essential thing, but what, what is it for you? And for me, you know, is God calling you to lead the God that even one wants to convince you you're incapable or you're weak, but there's all, there's certain ways that God is, is calling all of us.

You know, we, all of us are, are, are blessed. I mean, our, our eternal state of being is gonna be eternal blessedness. And the even one wants to convince us that we're forgotten or we're cursed. I mean, all these lies circle around people's heads. That that have nothing to do with what God sees us. And when you disagree with God, the maker of all things about who you are and what you're worth in that equation, you're the one who's wrong.

yeah, absolutely. There's no way you can be right there. I, I think this seems simple on the surface, Chris. But once you start talking about it and think about it, I think it's a little trickier than it seems because so often I think the lies that we tell ourselves become so second nature, they're just subconscious they're there.

And so unless you really take time to go through your IM book or the course or something similar where you're doing some deep reflection on this, it can just pass over your head. I know for myself, one of the things that I catch myself doing often just on a subconscious level again, It's calling myself an idiot.

Like, are you idiot? You know, I do. I make a mistake. I do something wrong. You're you idiot, you idiot. So I think there's a real need to dive into this. It can't just be something that oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I get what you're saying. I shouldn't be mean to myself. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's simple, but simple is not easy.

Right. In fact, it's very difficult to boil things down to the simple again and much of our lives. We're trying to get back to the simple within marriage. We're crying out loud. Oh, Nothing could look simpler. I love this person. She loves me. I wanna give my life to her. She wants to give her life to me.

the amazing thing. Is it actually, is that simple? But it's not easy to keep it, that, that simple and to work through all the crap that comes in the way of keeping it, that simple, that wants to destroy that, that, that beauty, that pure crystal line beauty , but that's, that's the, uh, the same journey as the, I am, you know, there's, there is a simplicity that I, I want to introduce people to, because most people, they, they don't win this battle cuz they don't even know that they're in it.

They don't show up. We're we're passive recipients of the things that go on in our heads is that St. Paul two Corinthians 10, we take captive every thought and make it obedient to Christ. I think that's a call from, from God's word to say, Hey dude, wake up. You know, people start to despair because they, they conclude there.

I, I can't win this battle. This is just how I am. So I'm just gonna sit here in. Just after years and years of telling yourself something, you just start to believe that on such a deep level, that it's really difficult. It can be difficult to change it. It can, uh, it takes a lot of vigilance for me whenever I feel literally punched in the gut.

I, I realize my old lies are coming up and, and I, and sometimes I feel like I'm gutted literally gutted and I, I'm not aware. That where it's coming from. But then I have to say, oh, this is, this is coming from somewhere. This feeling in the gut's coming from some, oh, I'm, I'm buying into the lies that I whispered so quietly to myself.

I don't, I don't even know I'm doing it anymore. Time to, to name it time, to renounce it, time to claim the truth. Again, again, again, until I PR keep practicing. It's like going into the boxing ring man, and keep punching back until it becomes second nature. That's right. That's right. And you start to. And your life starts to take a new shape.

My book's helpful. The program's helpful. Sometimes counseling is helpful to help people unpack more, you know, whatev whatever you need. Just, failure's not an option though. Losing in this. Battle's not an option. Yeah. So true. I think for some of us, if we treated other people, the way that we talked to ourselves, it would be an abusive relationship.

We'd have no friends, so, oh yeah. Yeah. Note, what are one or two tactics that everyone listening right now can use to change the way that they talk to themselves? Obviously the book and the course go into it in much more depth, but what's one or two quick things that people can use right now. Yeah. It really boils down to number one, realize that you are talking to yourself.

You know, we think without thinking about what we're thinking, realize that you are labeling yourself. There is a way you've decided to see yourself as a narrative that you tell yourself about who you are and, and it does. And, and you do have power over. So that's, that's, that's two you that you're not a passive recipient in the, in this story, you have to enter the battle.

Um, so show up for it. , mm-hmm, show up for that battle and, and, uh, it really the, the, all this, both the book and the program, and so much of counseling. Again go if you need it, but I might be able to save you many thousands of dollars.

so much of it really lands on identifying, naming how you're lining yourself. And then engaging your will, not every thought and feeling gets a vote. Not every one of them has power, unless you give it to that thought or feeling. All right. So stop being a victim to what's going on inside your own head show up for that battle.

And then, you know, are you believing that you're weak? You actually can make a difference, but literally out loud. I've renounced the lie that I'm weak. And I send that lie and all the evils associated with it, all the demons associated with it, to the foot of the cross for Jesus to send to hell when they belong.

And I claim the truth that I can, that I'm strong, that I can do all things to Christly strengthens me, that I'm capable. You know, what, what are you, how are you aligning yourself? I maybe I've renounced a lie that I'm dirty. And I claim the truth that I'm pure. I mean, I literally mean you gotta look in the mirror and say it, man.

You know, preaching is not something you, you, you just go to podcasts for. I mean, the reason that the church has a preaching ministry from, at mass on Sunday to podcast or Catholic radio to whatever the heck you consume, it's, it's all useless. If you don't learn to preach to yourself, that's the purpose of all this.

Is to teach you to start preaching yourself, could form your thinking to the word of God. And then you experience what it means to be a free, liberated, happy son or daughter of God, regardless of what's going on in your life. Amazing Chris, uh, about the book and about the program there, uh, the book itself is a 33 day exercise, right?

Is the program similar? Yeah, it is. It's, uh, I think it's 33 days in the program. Uh, the, the book is more, it's more of a circular thing. It it's. The program leads through different phases. That's, it's more of a linear course that lands on, uh, on making the firm commitment. We just talked about the book lands there too, but it's, it's more meditations on various lies.

People tell themselves in truths from the word of God, just, just to get you in the habit of bathing in those beautiful truths on a daily basis. So I I'd love people. Ideally you go through the program and then you get the book and you just keep reading it again. And. Just, just keep practicing, but you know, there's a lot of people who, however, the heck you feel drawn to do this stuff.

Just dive in. Okay. Sounds great. And how could people buy it and how could people follow you? Uh, it's all on real life, catholic.com, both buying that and following us sounds great. We'll throw that in the show notes for you guys, Chris, thank you so much for your time. Just wanna give you the, the final word and about how this can really make someone's life better.

Thank you brother. Oh, and also you could, you could text the word Chris to the number 4, 4 1 4, 4, and you sent up for a newsletter. I I'm just, I I'm honored by the chance to talk about this. This for me, you could probably tell by talking, none of this comes from, um, you know, I I'm, I have it all together.

Let me tell you how to live. A lot of this comes from spiritual battles have been through myself and the liberation I've experienced, uh, by engaging those battles. And I'm really, uh, Oh, I'm just honored to, to, to share this with you. Thanks for letting me in, because I, and I'm so excited of what waits for you.

on the other side of you entering that battle. Everybody needs this, this isn't just for people who are, who feel particularly acutely broken, which sometimes we all do. Right. But then a lot of times we feel like I got it together. No, no. Everybody has a battle when it comes to identity, everybody. And God is calling us the victory and he's allowing us to be a part in that battle.

Cause he wants to make us strong. He wants us to share his joy of victory. He can just win himself.

Chris is the man. I'm really glad you got to listen to that interview and a reflection question for you to think about. What lies do you believe about yourself? What lies do you believe about yourself? For me, some lies I've believed is I can't build love that lasts. I can't get married. I can't be a good husband.

I'm not enough. There's so many more, but those are just a few that I I've really wrestled with. And what about you? Give it some thought. Write it out. Talk it out with a friend. And if you pray, pray about it, bring it to God. Then I recommend picking up Chris's book. I am wherever you buy books, there's a link to Amazon in the show notes where you could buy his book and his program, or course like he mentioned, can be purchased at real life.

catholic.com real life, catholic.com. Once you're on that webpage, just click coaching, and then you can find the, I am. Renew your mind program, you can sign up for yourself or you can gift it. You can sign up for someone else as well. And then finally, you can buy the book that I wrote for you on Amazon. By clicking the link in the show notes or searching, it's not your fault.

A practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. You can also get the first chapters free restored ministry.com/. Books, just enter your name and your email on there, and we'll send you those first chapters for free. Again, restored ministry.com/books. The resources mentioned are the show notes@restorministry.com slash 54.

Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful, I invite you to subscribe, but most importantly, if you know someone who's really struggling from the impact of their parents, separation or divorce, share this podcast with them. I know it's gonna be helpful. Always. Remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#053: Does a Lack of Peace Prove Your Relationship Isn’t Meant to Be?

Many young people from broken families struggle to discern their relationships and calling in life because they feel so anxious and uncertain. The trauma of their broken family and the effects that stem from it often interfere with their ability to discern properly. 

In this episode, we dive into that and more:

• Why a lack of peace isn’t an automatic indicator that a relationship or vocation isn’t meant to be

• How to discern if you feel anxious and uncertain

• How our desire for 100% certainty prevents us from living the life we were meant to live.

Plus, we offer a sneak preview of our brand new book, It’s Not Your Fault.

Get the FREE chapters from our new book, It’s Not Your Fault.

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

A real struggle for young people that come from broken families is that we have a hard time discerning our relationships and our calling in life because we feel so anxious and uncertain about so many things. And it's not a topic that's really discussed much, unfortunately, but we've seen a clear trend in the people that we work with.

The people that we serve through restored, basically the trauma of our broken family and the effects that stem from. Interfere often with our ability to discern properly. And so we're gonna dive into that. We'll explain what we mean in this episode. And we're gonna talk about things like why a lack of peace doesn't automatically mean that your relationship or your vocation isn't meant to be.

We'll also discuss how to discern, how to make good decisions. If you feel anxious or uncertain, and then we'll touch on how our desire as people who come from broken families for a hundred percent certainty, often prevents us from living. That we were meant to live. We also share some personal stories about how Miranda and I have struggled with this and what we've done about it.

Also, you're gonna get a sneak preview of our brand new book and how you can get the book and a special offer too. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 50. Like I've mentioned, I've written a book for you, and I'm so excited to share it with you.

The sad is that most teenagers and young adults who come from broken families are traumatized by their parents' divorce or separation, but nobody gives them the guidance that they need to navigate the pain and the problems. And without that guidance, they continue to struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles, and so much more.

And I've experienced this firsthand. I know this problem and it shouldn't be this way. My new book is an answer to that problem. The title. It's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. And it features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by people like us from broken families.

And some of the questions we touch on in the book are I struggle with low self-esteem. How can I become more confident? After my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted and adequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me. Self-harm is my way of coping. How do I stop? How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage?

I feel broken. Like something is wrong with me. How could I heal and feel whole again? What can I do to heal my relationship with my parents? What has God let bad things like my parents' divorce happen. And if you read the book and if you implement the. Into your life. You're gonna learn how to cope with your pain in healthy ways.

Instead of unhealthy ways, you're just gonna become a better, stronger and more virtuous person. You'll learn to overcome the emotional problems that you face. You'll be given tactics on how to build healthy relationships. You'll find some evidence based strategies that you can use to actually heal.

These are not complicated. They're simple. You'll learn how to navigate your relationship with your parents. You'll improve your relationship with God. You make better decision. That build a better future for yourself. And most importantly, you're gonna be given the tools and resources. You need to get the help that you need.

And this isn't theory, guys, this is down to earth, common sense advice based on research, expert, advice and stories that we've heard from people like you, people who come from broken families. So this book is really for anyone who comes from a broken home, especially teenagers and young adults, whose parents are divorced, separated, just really struggling in their marriage.

And if that's not you, my bet would be that, you know, someone, you love someone, you lead someone who comes from a broken family. Maybe that's your kids, a cousin, boyfriend, girlfriend, whoever. Perhaps you lead people like that. Maybe you're a pastor youth minister teacher, a coach. In that case, you could use the book to really understand people who come from broken families and offer them a resource that will help them navigate the pain and the problems that they face.

The book comes out on September 21st, 2021. And if you're listening before that date, you can get the first chapters free on our website. I'll tell you how to do that in a second. If you're listening after that date, you can just buy the book on Amazon, or you can still get the first chapters for free to get those free chapters.

It's really easy. Just go to. Restored ministry.com/books. Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. You can click the button on that page to get the free chapters. And then you're just gonna fill out your name, email, and we'll send you those free chapters again, just go to restored ministry.

Dot com slash books. Plus if you ordered the paper back in September, 2021, we're gonna give you the ebook and the audiobook for free. And so hop on that. I'm so excited to share this book with you. We've been working on it for months and the feedback we've gotten from people who've seen an advanced copy has been solid.

So I'm really excited. I know this is going to help you. And so if you wanna get those free chapters, you can do that today@restorministry.com slash books. One side note, this version is specifically written for Catholic teen and young adults. We've just noticed that the majority of our audience comes from that demographic.

And so if you're not Catholic or you're not a teen and young adult, is it still useful for you? The answer is absolutely. Yes. We've heard again and again, how helpful our content is for everyone above that age range as well. And if you aren't religious. You can just skip the parts in the book that don't align with your beliefs.

It's still gonna be helpful for you too. And in this episode, you're gonna hear part of the audio book and then my editor Miranda, and I discuss the content where we add some stories and give some more advice. And I do apologize. You're gonna hear some technical glitches. We really try to produce a high quality show, but sometimes it's unavoidable that we hit some technical glitches.

So I'm very sorry about that. Thanks for your patience. So here's a portion of the audio book from our new book. It's not your fault

question, 31. How can I discern my calling in life when I feel so anxious and uncertain? When it comes to discerning your vocation or a relationship, you may have been told that you'll know it's the right decision. If you feel at peace about it, any uneasiness is a sign that it's not meant to. Along those lines.

One writer offered this question as a sign that a relationship is not meant to be quote. Do you feel anxiety when you think of marrying them end quote, but that advice is only half true. A lack of peace could very well mean that this person or vocation isn't for you, but for most people, especially from broken families, it usually requires more Digg.

In other words, a lack of peace is an important indication that something is happening that is worthy of attention, but it doesn't automatically mean you're pursuing the wrong vocation or dating the wrong person in college. I dated a great girl. However, I felt an incredible amount of fear, anxiety, and an overall lack of peace from the beginning of our relationship.

It was so overwhelming that it almost interpreted it as a sign that it wasn't meant to be. It was so overwhelming that it almost interpreted it as a sign that it wasn't meant to. Thankfully I dug deeper and realized I was dealing with depression and relationship anxiety. For three months of our relationship, I felt extremely numb and anxious.

I could barely think straight an argument could be made that I shouldn't have been dating at all. And we did take a break during that time, but had I run at the first sign of a lack of peace, I would've missed out on a beautiful relationship. The source of my lack of peace was not the vocation of marriage or the woman I date.

It was my fear and anxiety about love, relationships and intimacy. I was terrified of repeating what I saw in my parents' marriage. I was afraid of opening up about my past and my current struggles that fear and anxiety interfered with my ability to discern clearly or blended me. I felt unable to discern properly this pattern repeated in most of my relationships though.

It got less intense. The more I. Another cause for my anxiety was my desire for 100% certainty. And my decision to date, the girl I was with, I wanted a sign from heaven. I had to learn the hard way that God doesn't usually make it super obvious what we should do. It would be nice. Wouldn't it? Afraid of making the wrong decision, afraid of failing in the relationship.

Afraid of repeating my parents' mistakes. I felt so uncertain that I didn't want to decide it was too dangerous. I thought even after I finally made a decision, I second guessed myself because I struggled with self-confidence. The first thing that helped me was to identify that fear and anxiety were at the core of my lack of peace.

Therefore, I didn't need to freak out that the relationship wasn't meant to. Once I knew that I could start working through my fear and anxiety so I could see more clearly. Whenever I felt that anxiety, I learned to be patient with myself instead of immediately doubting my relationship or vocation. So if you have a similar experience of overwhelming fear and anxiety in a relationship, make sure to question the root of your anxiety.

Is it the relationship? Is it this particular vocation? Do you struggle with anxiety? Past wounds, identify the root of the fear and anxiety that you are experiencing for people like us. It's often not the external circumstance that is causing it. For example, the relationship or the person you are dating, but it is rather a reaction to past wounds that are being triggered.

Don't isolate yourself, involve older wiser people who can give you advice and guide you share your experience and discernment with people you trust, especially people whose opinion you value, get their thoughts on whether you and your significant other are a good fit or. That vulnerability will help you much more than keeping everything secret.

That helped me, especially when I couldn't see clearly because of my emotions. So receive the love of others during this time, especially for mentors, this will help you make a better decision and feel confident in that decision. The affirmation and love of a mentor gave me the confidence I needed to pursue my.

Be aware of your tendency to be a people pleaser. It won't serve you well when making big decisions. In fact, it will harm you since you might be more interested in making someone happy than in finding what you're called to do with your life. Naturally, make sure you are praying. It helps to calm your heart, mind, and soul, but more importantly, it helps you connect with God.

His opinion and guidance are more important than anyone else's. He knows you better than you know yourself. So get his input too. Lastly, do your best, not to stress about your vocation, keep your desire to do the right thing and to follow God's will at the center. A pure heart and action will lead you down the right path.

When you begin to feel stress or anxious about your vocation. Try praying this prayer. My Lord God, I have no idea where I'm going. I do not see the road ahead of me. I cannot know for certain where it will end nor do I really know myself. And the fact that I think I am following your will, does not mean that I'm actually doing so, but I believe that my desire to please, you does, in fact, please, you and I hope I have that desire in all that I'm doing.

I hope that I will never do anything apart from that desire. And I know that if I do this, you will lead me by the right road though. I may know nothing about. Therefore will I trust you? Always though. I may seem to be lost. And in the shadow of death, I will not fear for you or ever with me. And you will never leave me to face my perils alone.

For more guidance on discerning your vocation by father Steven W's book, how to discern your vocation. You can also download it for free with the bonus material. Another helpful resource is father Timothy Gallagher's book discerning the will of God, which is based on the spiritual exercises of Saint Ignatius of Loyola

Miranda. Can you relate to anything in the content in the book? Like, was this a struggle for you as well? Yeah, absolutely. I mean that overwhelming sense of anxiety hit me so many times. I mean, yeah, it was pretty much a constant battle for me in my dating life, especially I remember, I don't know who it was if it was some in the, in church or if it was something I read outside or.

Just someone's advice. But I do remember that moment when, you know, someone said there should be peace regarding dating. And I was like, crap. It's like, well, I'm never gonna get married then yeah. It's like, oh shoot. And you know, to be fair, I, I do think that. You know, obviously the first few relationships weren't meant to be mm-hmm

Um, however, that doesn't mean that they weren't supposed to happen. I think we talked about this at some point in the book and, um, in other material, but. You know, anxiety pushes people away, um, or it can push people away. And especially in relationships, it kind of causes us to, or it can cause us to either withdraw from people or to clinging to them.

And so either way you end up kind of creating space. From the other person. So, so, and then it just, it causes this kind of vicious cycle in a way you feel the other person pulling away or you feel yourself pushing them away, which then causes more anxiety mm-hmm etc. Cetera. And so I remember with my husband, like one of the things that I professionally had for the first.

Few months of our relationship, which we didn't date that long, but definitely for fair amount of time, I would always have a stomach ache leading up to us hanging out, or during at least like the first half, you know, the beginning that we were together. Mm-hmm . And so that I realized in therapy, you know, she kind of helped me see that that was actually a trauma response.

And, um, that I was reacting to. Kind of my past experiences with men, my, the, the distrust that I had of them because of a lot of what happened with my parents and, and their separation mm-hmm and the woundedness that was there that existed. And so it was really hard for me to let that go, like to not let that be a, um, yeah, like a sign, I guess, of like, this isn't meant to be, because I feel uneasiness.

Like even physically, I just feel. Like almost ill, you know? Yeah. Cause of the anxiety. So, and you know, he, he is my husband, so obviously like it, it was good for me to be with him. It was good that we were dating. But nevertheless there was anxiety. So if I had, you know, maybe taken to heart, someone's advice of like, yeah, if you're, if you're, if you're experiencing some anxiety, like maybe that's not the right relationship.

And I remember doubting a whole lot, and it was actually a lot of my, my close friends and family that encourage me in the relationship and said, you know, maybe this anxiety's kind of unfounded. And along with my therapist too. Um, she kind of helped me work through that. So I absolutely can identify with, with what you were talking about in here.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I wish people would talk about this more often. I feel like there's a huge misunderstanding when it comes to, you know, figuring out you're calling in life, figuring out who you're supposed to be with, if you're supposed to get married, all that. And I think people would, uh, really benefit from having conversations like these more because the advice about peace, like we mentioned in the book, Is good advice, but it's kind of half true.

Like there should ultimately be a level of peace, but that doesn't mean that there's not gonna be some sort of interference based on our past wounds and all the different things that we mentioned in the book. So I think it, it is really important to keep that in mind. And I relate so much with your experience.

Like I mentioned, uh, in the book, there was a relationship. I mean, pretty much every relationship I've been in has had some level of anxiety where I thought maybe it was meant to be because of. Like I said, it got better as I went on, but this one relationship early on in college, it was just so intense.

It was miserable at times because my emotions were just all over the place. And I was trying again, to make the right decision. I was like, am I meant to be with this girl or not? Um, am I meant to, you know, be married or maybe pursue a different vocation? It just caused so much anxiety and I just felt so lost at the end of the day, especially when it just came to any sort of discernment and you did better than I did in the sense that you knew.

Take this to people, which is awesome. I mean, maybe you didn't right away. You can elaborate on that. But I just held this in Miranda. Like I didn't talk to anyone about it. I didn't tell the girl I was dating. I didn't tell really many other people in my life. I just thought, you know what? Something's like wrong with me for feeling this, like everyone who talks about dating or their relationship, they'll say things like, well, it just felt so natural.

And it was just, we just knew it was meant to be, it was love at first sight. I'm like, I've never experienced that. I, you know, there's something wrong with me. And so I literally did think something, uh, was perhaps wrong with me, but there was peace eventually when I was able to, uh, basically stop forcing myself to feel a certain way or thinking that there was something wrong with me for feeling a certain way, but really just like letting myself feel whatever I was feeling.

And. Didn't fight them. Uh, I just let myself feel what I was feeling. I remember I had, uh, dinner with, uh, the girl I was dating and her family. It was new year's Eve. It was an awesome, awesome dinner. We had a great time. And I remember after that, we were just sitting around a fire and for some reason that whole experience and just the idea that, okay.

I can just feel whatever I'm feeling. I don't need to dictate it or manipulate. Or manufacture it that really, really helped me find peace and ultimately helped that relationship grow. I think one of the huge, um, misfortunes of this anxiety is that it robs you of something that should be enjoyable. That should be fun, that should, that we should learn and grow from mm-hmm

And I think like you, you know, you were saying. Anxiety, like other people are talking about the, the joy and the delight and yeah, just like all the goodness that there is getting to know another person and growing, um, with them. And. Know, just all the dating relationships can show us. And, you know, just enjoying that time, mm-hmm anxiety can kind of, it, it steals that, you know, can steal that from us.

It's not cool, bro. You know, like it's, it's, it's not, uh, not, should not be that way and definitely wish that I had enjoy. The dating relationships. Cause you know, I'm very blessed. Like I can say that the guys that I dated were phenomenal looking back, it's like, man, I, I wish that I had just enjoyed that more and um, not let the anxiety cripple me so much.

And even looking for my relationship with my husband, I wish that I had not questioned the process so much, um, because I think it tainted and otherwise, you know, beautiful, wonderful season. It's good that, you know, after that initial relationship in college kind of, we were able to come around. Grow out of it, almost at least a little to a degree, but I think for people like us, man, it can be a huge struggle.

Totally. Yeah. So much uncertainty, like you said. And I think it is, it is a real struggle for that. People like us are more, you know, likely to fall into and perhaps people listening right now didn't have this experience. Um, but I would say the majority of people that we've. Work with, through restored and friends of mine, people I know who come from broken families.

There's a lot of issues when it comes to dating and relationships. And that's just a theme overall that we've seen. But yeah, so many good points that you made. And I love what, you know, you had people in your life kind of giving you feedback, saying that your doubt was unfounded in certain situations, which is, I think it's so freeing.

I think one of the things that's needed is having people really keep you ground. and say like, well, you're not actually being objective about this. You're actually maybe letting your emotions, um, guide you here and make you think that something is a bigger deal than it actually is. Or maybe even think that something is a problem when it's not even there to begin with.

So I think, I think it's good to. You know, keep that in mind and to have people speaking into it, but I'm curious to get your input on something. I remember just wanting so badly to like tell the girl I was dating, you know, at the beginning of college, it was like end of high school, beginning of college to, to be accurate.

But I, um, remember just like feeling like I couldn't. I felt like she wouldn't really understand where I was coming from, because I didn't really understand what was going on myself. I didn't put my finger on it until later that I was dealing with, you know, anxiety and depression and just like overall numbness.

And so it was difficult to even share that with anyone, cuz I didn't have the words to. Tell them describe what I was going through. So that was a kind of its own cross in a very real way. But, um, I'm just curious. Do you think it's helpful for people in this situation to explain their anxiety and their concerns to the person they're dating?

Or should there be some level of like filtering going on because. When my relationships later on, I learned that there needed to be a balance. Cuz if I was just opening up all the time about all these feelings, I was having, the anxiety that I was experiencing, then I, that would actually make things worse than the relationship.

Kind of like you said, it would cause. That person to doubt too. It would, then that would make me more anxious and perhaps them anxious and just cause all sorts of issues, which are the opposite of peace. So anyway, I'm just curious what you think. If there should be some level of, um, vulnerability there or if there should be some filtering and the last thing I was just say before I let you.

Jump in. I was talking to other people about it. Eventually. Eventually I did have mentors or friends in my life who I couldn't talk to about. So I think you have to talk to someone I'm just not sure if it's appropriate to talk, uh, at least without any filter to the person you're dating. What do you think?

Yeah, I mean, that's a tough one. I, I definitely can say my instinct was always to withhold. Um, but I do think that was to a fault. Um, I was very blessed to have an incredible therapist. I would spill it all unfiltered to her mm-hmm and she would gimme feedback. And one of the things she did encourage me to do a lot was actually open up to him more about it.

And so, you know, it could be that my nature is to hold back, hold back, hold back. So I was probably on one end of the spectrum and she was helping me nudge, nudge me a little bit more towards the kind of happy medium mm-hmm , um, which was definitely very uncomfortable for me. But I will say, I think it was helpful.

I mean, and I, I think it's one of those things too, like you're saying, like, it needs to be moderated, you know, especially like I would say at the beginning of a relationship, you, you probably will have a lot of, you know, you might have a lot of anxiety because of all the things that go dating, um, and the uncertainty and, you know, it's also excitement, which can feel like anxiety, which is really confusing, but, you know, so maybe though at the beginning of the relationship, you do wanna have more.

Of, um, a filter I guess, and, and kind of moderate what you, uh, open up about. However, I think the longer you're together, you know, the more it is kind of a continual unveiling of each other mm-hmm and, um, you know, I think there should be a level of comfort with revealing that, you know, when, and to, to, in, in various degrees.

Um, and I would say, um, like you said, you know, you said you talked to other people and I, and I. If, if you're able to talk to other people first about what you're going through, I think that's the ideal people. You trust people who maybe have been in a similar situation experience, similar challenges. Uh, I think if you are able to communicate with them first and then let them give you feedback about yeah.

You know, it might be good to bring this up with them. Or, you know, maybe you just hold off a little, you know, so to get some feedback before going to your significant other, I think is, is really helpful. And I like, thankfully did have that guidance, which served me well, but I do think it opened door sharing what I did with at least with Steven.

Like it, it, it opened the door for him to love me better. You know, like he, he was able to understand me at a deeper level. Something that was totally, totally unknown to him that he, he just had a very different background, very different experience growing up and it and things. So it did open the door for us to grow closer together, to understand each other better.

And for him to love me in a way that I was even better able. Able to receive. Okay. No, that makes sense. And I, I would totally agree with that. I should have clarified before. I don't think you should completely like withhold this experience. I just think, like you said, there needs to be some moderation.

Ideally you're taking it to other people first. And the main reason I was. Saying that is, I think it's important to let your emotions grow and develop because sometimes there can be a tendency. If you like feel any bit of anxiety kind of going off, the whole idea is that there should be peace. and so the first sense of anxiety or lack of peace, we might have this tendency to be like, oh, I need to talk to them.

I need to tell them about this where I, I think there needs to be a little bit of space there. Like you were saying where it's like, well, let me see where this goes. I don't need to act on it right away. And I remember in another relationship in college, uh, having a similar experience, it was probably about six months into the relationship.

Uh, there had been anxiety, you know, at different points, but there was especially a point where I would. Kind of questioned it and thought like, oh gosh, maybe this isn't meant to be. And my tendency was to, you know, kind of rush and bring that to the other person. But then I realized, you know, maybe I should just sit on this a little bit, you know, think about it, pray about it, talk with people who can guide me and then I'll approach them.

And that's kind of what I was getting at before. I think it is wise to use that sort of a filter. Where you never share anything and you're not vulnerable to the person cuz that's unhealthy. That's not good. Um, but to the point where you're not just saying any, everything in anything that comes on your mind or your heart, anything that you're feeling.

So definitely a balance. And I think what you said, the starting point really is to. Understand your tendencies. If your tendency is more to be maybe overly open with someone, then maybe you need to pull it back a little bit more. But like you said, Marin, if your tendency is to be more closed off, which that was me too, then perhaps we are the people who need to share a little bit more, then maybe we feel ready.

To share. So I think there is that, um, that balance, but I think there is value in letting your emotions like develop and grow and not just thinking that one evening, I felt that one thing. And therefore I need to have a serious conversation with this person. Yeah. I definitely think there should be a level of discerning before, you know, necessarily like not to overthink it to death, but.

Definitely letting things settle a little bit before you bring it to the other person. But I remember something that was super helpful that I did share with him pretty early on was my tendency to spiral, like to, for him to say or do something that. Would send my alarm BES going off and I would withdraw and I would just shut down, down.

And when I was able to like tell him that that was something that I experienced, he was able to then identify times when. That was happening and it just, or at least just asked me, are you spiraling right now? You know? And then it helped so much to bring me out of it, to, to, for him to like, have access to that.

So, I mean, and I don't know how early that was and, you know, might, might have been, might have been later in the relationship that I'm remembering, but when you let in, you know, the other person a little bit, little by little. Where you struggle in relationships, like it allows other person to help carry that with you and to, yeah.

Love you in a way. Is healing. Yeah. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. And I really wish looking back to that relationship. I mentioned in the book late high school, early college, I really wish I would've been more vulnerable with her. I think it would've helped a ton. And that was one of the things that ultimately did help the relationship to become better healthier was when I started opening up a little bit more.

So, yeah. I, I agree. It it's definitely nuance. It's something that's not. Easy to just say, oh, just do this or just do that. But there are absolutely different things to consider. And I think in one way, it's like this whole discernment for people like us is more about navigating emotions than choosing like a way of life, which kind of sinks it really.

Yeah. Doesn't seem like it should be this way. Absolutely. I wanted to go back to something that you said too there that the early relationships you had though, they weren't meant to be, it doesn't mean that they weren't supposed to happen. I think that's an awesome way of saying, and I would totally agree in my relationships as well.

Like the ones that didn't work out, um, they obviously weren't meant to be, but I was glad that they happened. So, you know, I think it goes for both of us when we're recording this. We're not saying that, oh gosh, you know, we really missed the train on that one. Like, because we were anxious, we missed our vocation.

Saying that some people I think get that idea. Um, most of the time that's very false, but, um, but I think it is important to say, and I would just relate to, to what you said before and totally agree with. Yeah, it can be, it can be really tough, but the more, yeah, the more experience you get with it, like an awareness, I think is just really, really huge.

Yeah, absolutely. Like the awareness that you had that, you know, at the root of this, like your counselor said that not in your stomach, that stomach ache was really a trauma response that was pointing back to your distrust of men, which had to do with the breakdown of your family, your parents' marriage and your family.

So that awareness, I think, goes so far in helping. Talk yourself off the ledge, thinking that, oh gosh, everything is going to hell. Like, this is not good. Like this relationship is over just kind of catastrophizing. I think that's the word? Um, this whole, yeah, this, this whole drama that's unfolding inside of you.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. And I think, you know, with, with people like us, we have a lot of fear. Um, obviously this we're talking, you know, anxiety. And so the idea of dating someone and then breaking up sounds just like the end of the world. It's too hard. I can't do this. At least that was my experience. Like.

Remember the idea of the relationship ending was just mm-hmm it just felt like, oh my gosh, like I can't, I can't do this. I can't handle this. Mm-hmm um, I wanted it to be a sure thing and that's just not how life works. So it was really. That navigating that fear can be super, super tough, um, because it just feels so risky.

And especially if the other person doesn't have that experience, you kind of feel isolated a little bit in your, in your anxiety, in your fear about the relationship. But I remember, you know, my therapist kind of encouraging me and saying, you know, and if you break up this isn't it that then it, that then it there's more to the story like that, that person wasn't for you.

Like it was, there's more to, to your journey than just the break, like the breakup won't end everything, you know, there's more that comes after it. Yeah. But it can be, it can be really. Overwhelming, um, and alarming when you're entering in your relationship to accept that reality of reality of yeah. Like this might not work out and that will be painful, right?

No, it, it is such a difficult thing. Just kind of anticipating that pain. Cuz I know for me, I was so loyal in my relationships in the sense that I almost treated it like a marriage. It was like, I can. Walk away from this person, because like you said, in a way it almost felt like a divorce because I, you know, just was thinking, oh gosh, I'm repeating, you know, what happened in my parents' relationship?

And I didn't want that. And so there, you know, there might even been times in some of my relationships where. I maybe should have stepped back sooner or broke things off. And I didn't, because of that fair sense of loyalty, like, no, I will not repeat what happened, you know, in my parents' marriage, I'm not gonna give up on this person.

Like, you know, mom and dad did on each other. So I think that can cause discernment issues. Too, cuz we maybe hold on to something longer than we should, which is, which is really difficult. So I, I definitely relate to you just like dreading a breakup, but I think what your, you know, counselor said is just so helpful and even playing out that ending in your head, I found can be helpful just thinking through, okay, this could.

Then what then what? And thinking of the, then what, for me that has helped me kind of overcome a lot of the fear, cuz then I realized, well, you know, it will be painful. It is scary, but I'll survive and I'll be okay. And is it this, isn't the end of the world that you said? Yeah. And I think after dating a couple guys and it not working out when I was dating my husband.

I had a sense a little, it was still scary. It was still really hard. But I do remember having that sense of like, I've been through some really tough breakups and it sucked, but like I got through it and I, I think I'm stronger because of it. So, and grew grew from that experience. So it kind of gave me a level, a sense of, I guess, security in a sense that I had endured that.

And, you know, and I was here and I was okay. You made it no same, same here. And kind of on, on a little bit of a different note, I just wanted to say to anyone who maybe is comparing their experience of a relationship to someone who comes from a very intact and secure home, don't do that. Uh, I did that and I just think it's really unhelpful.

Again, you ultimately, there should be peace in your relationship, but you might have to fight through a lot of crap to get there. You know, just like Marin and I are saying you might be dealing with some serious anxiety issues or depression, or just struggles with uncertainty and all that. So if you're looking at yourself and saying, well, I am struggling with this and this friend of mine.

It's just like on cloud nine in, in her relationship and his relationship. And I just don't see something must be wrong with me. Maybe something is, and that that's basically what we're saying here. It's like, don't compare like apples or oranges. Don't make it harder on yourself than it already is by saying like, well, I'm not having that same experience as someone else.

And I think, and some level, I just wanna say that I think everyone has some anxiety in relationships that there's like Miranda was saying. There's a lot of uncertainty just by the very nature of a dating relationship. But I think it is important to give yourself some extra grace and not expect your experience to match the experience of someone who comes from a very secure, intact home.

Absolutely. Yeah. I think that was kind of a challenge in my dating relationships that the guys I dated, you know, were very blessed. In that they came from really beautiful families that, um, were intact and secure. And so they, it really was a challenge for them to understand, to step into my experience of, of brokenness and, you know, the woundedness anxiety.

Yeah, definitely. It's tough. And I think even in marriage, you know, if you marry someone who comes from a very different background, you know, your worldview is just totally different. And I think it's, you know, can be mutually, you know, it can be healing for you to be with someone, you know, from a secure home, but it can also be challenging.

Totally. I had the exact same experience. I think every girl that I dated came from St as you like, came from a intact family. And so it was difficult for them to totally understand where I was coming from. And, uh, I, yeah, I remember, I think having similar conversations as we're having now and it not going so well, cuz them thinking well, You feel anxious about this?

Well then maybe it's not meant to be where in reality, you know, there was a lot more underneath the surface, so yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Even in marriage, it can be, it can be really difficult to, uh, to kind of wrestle with all this and explain where you're coming from without it seeming like it's a, it's a major issue.

It's just something that people like us have to roll with, which is unfortunate, but it is the way that it is. I, uh, another thing that helped me. Was grounding techniques, especially when I felt so anxious. So for some of you who are familiar with psychology, you know, grounding techniques where it's basically using your senses to kind of pull you out of your head where, you know, anxiety, a lot of times ends in like racing thoughts, right.

You just get stuck in your head so much. And so you really need to use your body in ways that. Get you out of your head. And so for me, sometimes it was as simple, especially if I was in the midst of like a situation where I felt it with the, the girl or girls I dated, uh, I would even just touch a table or something.

And, you know, if you can imagine I'm doing this right now with my desk, you can imagine just like running your hand up and down the table or grabbing it or whatever, just getting. Out of your head by using your senses. So that's another tip for you guys listening. If this is something you're dealing with, give that a try and you can do that with all your senses, whether it's your sight or smell, whatever you can use, those grounding techniques.

Again, just like it sounds, it kind of brings you down to reality because in, in our heads we can kind of go crazy. We can think up all these different scenarios, think of all these different problems, which may or. Be there. And so it's important that we stay objective and that's where getting other people involved is helpful too.

But these grounding techniques I found to be, to be really useful. Have you Miranda, have you used stuff like that? I think that's still a struggle for me. I think I've learned a little bit about. You know, kind of the practice of mindfulness and one of the tactics that they encourage is using your physical senses to ground yourself.

I think I still wrestle with that. Some, I think that when, um, I'm like something triggers me, um, triggers my fear. It's very, it's so intense. You know, the physiological response is so intense and then also your brain is just like, it just. Takes over and you, you know, there might be like, I might go, you know, eight minutes without saying anything, but my mind is going in a million different directions and taking me down a lot of rabbit holes that are not, not good and not healthy.

So I think that's still more of a struggle. I think what has helped me more has been just vocalizing. It of saying, yeah. Like I, I I'm spiraling right now, you know? And, um, just the act of putting it in words kind of stops me in my tracks a little bit and helps me bring me out of that. But. Um, I think if you are able to use the grounding techniques, like I think that that's a huge tool that can be super powerful.

It's just a matter of, I guess, practice. Yeah. No, that's great advice. So if it works for you guys, maybe give it a try, see if it works for you. And if it does use 'em, if not, there just might be something else out there that can help you. And hopefully some of our content has, you know, directed you to, to those different things.

Marida one other thing. Topic is just the desire that we have for a hundred percent certainty. I've noticed this trend in people from broken families that we just desire that certainty more than other people. And certainly some of this is like a temperament thing, personality thing. Some people just want more certainty.

Some people are okay without as much certainty in life. But I think, uh, especially when it comes to relationships for people who come from broken homes, Really struggle with this. And what I've seen is a lot of people like us, they end up just being really stuck in life and not moving ahead in relationships because they're looking for that.

Like, Perfect fairytale ending just they want the right person. They wanna know that it's right. And they want to have no problems or feel no anxiety. And man, that sounds great, but I've never talked to anyone who who's had that. So I think it's important that we kind of acknowledge that this. Struggle for people like us.

And I'm interested to hear your thoughts, especially like, why is that? Why do you think we struggle with this so much? I think, you know, we've experienced the fallout of what happened when things don't work out and how painful it can be with, with marriage. And so we're traumatized, you know, we, we wanna avoid that pain at all.

And so it becomes a very, very fear is a very powerful motivator. And I think when it comes to dating or making big decisions, like we, we don't wanna be burned again, ESP, you know, because we've experienced it in such a deep way. Yeah. We, we want to. Avoid that at all costs. So true. And the one thing I would add as well is I think I've noticed this tri people who come from broken families is that we de desire that a hundred percent certainty, because we feel like we have no safety net.

We have no backup. We feel like there's no one there for us. So many of us just feel so alone when our parents' marriage breaks apart, our family breaks down. We feel like we have to just figure life out by ourselves. No, one's got our back. Even if maybe they do have our back. If something. Bad were to happen.

We feel like they won't. And so we end up just going through life, just kinda looking out for ourselves. And so I think that's why these decisions, especially big decisions, like a relationship or vocation can feel so scary. And we want so much certainty, which can leave us feeling stuck because we just feel like we have no plan B.

We have no safety. Yeah, we feel like, um, no, one's got our back that we have to, um, we can't mess up. We can't afford to make a mistake, so we're just, we're extra cautious. We're extra risk adverse. And I think there are statistics that children are divorced. Like just don't take as many risks as, um, you know, both in relationships, but also in life in general, we just tend to be more cautious.

We tend to watch our step a lot more and I definitely find this to be the case with myself. Like even. Small decisions. And I think we, we have kind of a couple sections on, on decision making in the book. Things that shouldn't be a big deal. I ruminate over a lot more than, than is appropriate because I wanna make sure this is right.

And so I definitely think that that's something to be aware of. Absolutely. It's a real struggle and it will hold you back in life. And. Not only that it will just leave you with a ton of regret I've realized. So I think it's really good to surround yourself with people who will push you to take risks, like good risks.

Um, but also to just remember that if you do fail, what happens, that's kind of the way's I think, to overcome so much of that fear is just mentally to go through that exercise of like playing it out, like, okay, if I do. what happens? How bad is it gonna get? And in some cases it might be really bad, then you can think, okay, if that happens, what am I gonna do to recover from it?

And then also a third question. This comes from Tim Ferris. He had this little exercise to kind of navigate your fears. You should also ask the question of, well, what can I do to reduce the chance that it will fail? So again, the questions are okay if this fails, like how bad is it gonna get, what can I do to mitigate those risks?

And then if, if a worst case scenario does happen, what do I do to recover? And so if you think through those and give that some time. What I've found is it kind of takes the wind out of the fear and it makes it much more manageable to go through and take that risk because in the end you can see, well, it's not as scary as I thought.

Absolutely. Just putting it out in the open and either, you know, like you said, reasoning through it on your own, or, you know, maybe taking it to someone else again, it makes it so much less scary and you realize, okay, The end result of this, even if I fail, is most likely not catastrophic is most likely not UN fixable.

Um, there's very little that can't be repaired in some way. And even if it is something that, you know, maybe you can't undo, it is something that you can, you know, have a contingency plan for. So I think it's really important to kind of examine that fear and like dig a little deeper. And instead of.

letting it dictate, you know, because it's so loud and it feels so strong, you know, kind of ignoring that a little bit, pushing it to a side a little bit, which can be super tough, but then. Putting it aside enough that you can examine it a little bit closer because a lot of times, you know, the fear is just fear and it's not really just in, in reality.

That's so true. Miranda. Thank you so much for your time. It's been a great conversation, uh, to everyone listening. We really hope this has been helpful for you. And, uh, in Thero I'll give you some more info on how to pick up the book if you'd like to Miranda. Thanks again. Yeah, of course.

I really hope that was helpful for you. One question for you to think about after this episode is over, is how has your anxiety or your uncertainty held you back from good things in your life? How has it kept you from discerning or making decisions about your life's calling or maybe relationships that you've been in?

And most importantly, what are you gonna do about it? What's your plan to overcome it? Give that some thought. Again, you can get the first chapters for free from my new book. It's not your fault. A practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. Just go to restored ministry.com/books.

Enter your name and your email. We'll send you the first chapters for free. Again, restored ministry.com/books. Or just click on the link in the show notes. The resources mentioned are the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 53. Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful. Feel free to subscribe, but most importantly, if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce as, or broken marriage, share this podcast with them, it's definitely gonna help them as well.

Always. Remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#052: How to Navigate Your Relationship With Your Divorced Parents

A popular question we receive from young people from broken families is “How do I help my parents and navigate my relationship with them?” 

In this episode, we offer advice and answer that question. We discuss:

• What to do when your parents try to enlist you in their war against each other

• How to respond if your parents are asking you to make or heavily influence big decisions for them

• Why you shouldn’t have to pretend everything is okay when Mom or Dad start dating someone else

Plus, we offer a sneak preview of our brand new book, It’s Not Your Fault. 

Get the FREE chapters from our new book, It’s Not Your Fault.

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When I give talks to college students, one popular question that comes up during the Q and a is how do I help my parents? And how do I navigate my relationship with them? It's an excellent question, which is why this is a topic of today's episode. We answer two questions. How do I love and help my parents?

How do I deal with my parents moving on in life and in relationships? So in this episode, there's a few things we discuss what to. When your parents try to enlist you in their war against each other, we touch on how to respond. If your parents are asking you to make or heavily influence big decisions for them, we talk about why you shouldn't have to pretend that everything is okay when mom or dad start dating someone else.

We also hit on how you can change your parents. You might be surprised by the answer to that. We also offer a sneak preview of our brand new book and how you can get the book and a special offer for you guys too. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 52, and like I said, I've written a book for you. The sad truth is that most young people, most teenagers and young adults who come from broken families are traumatized by their parents' separation.

Or divorce, but nobody gives us people like us, the guidance that we need to navigate the pain and the problems. I know this firsthand, I live through it myself. And without that guidance, we continue to struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles, the list goes on and on again, I've experienced this firsthand and it really shouldn't be this way.

My new book is an answer. To that problem. The title is it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents to force the book features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by young people like us who come from broken families. Some of the questions that I answer in the book are I struggle with low self-esteem.

How can I become more confident after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted and adequate, and even rejected as something wrong with me. Self-harm is my way of coping. How do I stop? How can I cope in healthy ways instead of unhealthy ways? What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life events?

How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage? I feel broken. Like something is wrong with me. How can I heal and feel whole again? What can I do to heal my relationship with my parents? Why does God let bad things like my parents force happen? And how can I discern my calling in life when it feels so anxious and uncertain and lots of other questions.

And if you read the book and more importantly, if you implement the advice in the book, you're gonna learn a bunch of things. You're gonna learn how to cope with your pain in healthy ways. Instead of unhealthy ways, you'll become a better, stronger, more virtuous person. You'll learn to overcome emotional problems.

You'll be given tactics to build healthy, thriving relationships. You're gonna find evidence based strategies that you can use to heal. You'll also learn how to navigate your relationship with your parents. That we'll talk about today. You're gonna improve your relationship with God and you'll make better decisions that build a better future for yourself.

And most importantly, you'll be given the tools and resources. You need to get the help that you need. And guys, this isn't theory, this is down to earth. Common sense advice based on research. Expert advice and stories that we've heard from people like you, people who come from broken families since book really is for anyone who comes from a broken family, but especially teenagers and young adults whose parents are divorced, separate are really struggling in their marriage.

And if that's not, you, you probably love or lead someone who comes from a broken family. Maybe that's your kids or a cousin or a boyfriend, or girlfriend, someone, whoever, or maybe you lead them as a pastor, youth minister, a teacher, a coach, wherever you're at in your relationship with young people who come from broken families, this is gonna be a great resource for you.

And for them, it makes a great gift that you can give to them to help them navigate all the pain and the problems that come from the breakdown of their parents' marriage. The book comes out on September 21st, 2021. And if you're listening to this before that date, you can get the first chapters for free.

I'll tell you how to do that in a second. And if you're listening after that date, you can buy the book on Amazon right now, or you can get the first chapters for free by going to restored ministry.com. Again, restored ministry.com/. Books and ministry is just singular restored ministry.com/books. This link is in the show notes as well.

Just click on the button to get the free chapters. You're gonna fill out a quick form with your name, your email, and then we'll send you the free chapters. Again. That's restored ministry.com/books. And if you buy the paperback in September of 2021, you're gonna get the ebook and the audio book for free.

We're given another way for free to anyone who buys the book in September, 2021. And we'll tell you in future episodes, how you can get the free ebook and the audio book. And I'm so excited to share this with you guys. We've been working on this for months, my team and I, and the feedback we've gotten from people who've seen an advanced copy has been really solid.

So we're really excited to share this with you. I also wanna say that this version is for Catholic teens and young adults. Now, if you're not Catholic or you're not a teen or young adult, is it still useful for you? Absolutely. We've heard again and again, how the content that we put out though, it's technically geared towards people who come from broken homes who are teenagers and young adults.

It, it really helps a whole range of people, especially people who come from broken homes who are outside that age range. And so if that's you, or maybe you aren't religious, you can just skip the parts that are religious, skip the parts that don't align with your beliefs. And it's still gonna be really useful for you as well.

And in this episode, you're gonna actually hear two questions and answers from the book itself. You're gonna hear part of the audio book and then my editor Miranda, and I discuss the content. We had some stories and some more advice. So I don't wanna wait any longer. Let's jump into the first

question. 26. How do I love and help my parents? One day, the mom of a 14 year old boy suddenly abandoned her family, never to return her departure, left his dad. So depressed and debilitated that he struggled to function wanting to help the boy dropped out of school and immediately took ownership of the cooking, cleaning, and shopping to compensate for his mother's absence.

While most of us wouldn't drop out of school. At 14, we share the same desire to help our parents seeing the problems in their lives and the suffering that they experience. We naturally wanna help them. However, we might not know how to do it in a healthy way first, remember that people can change, but you can't change them.

They have to change themselves. You can influence them, but they must choose to change. If your mom or dad are choosing an unhealthy way of living, realize that you are not responsible for their actions. They are, you cannot change them. They must change themselves. By far, the best thing you can do is to live a virtuous life, a life of good habits and an internal disposition to do what is good, live a healthy life in every way possible.

Your example is much more likely to inspire change in your parents than the words you say, set and enforce healthy boundaries with your parents. This not only helps you, but it helps them too. They need to know what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. Boundaries are the lines you draw that tell people what you will and will not allow.

When someone breaks the boundary, it must be enforced. It's useless to have boundaries. If there are no consequences for breaking them, boundaries are most needed. When it comes to emotionally supporting your parents do not become your mom or dad's primary emotional support. It's unhealthy for you and them, even though it feels like you're helping.

Instead redirect your parents to people who can properly support them, their family, friends, a mentor, pastor, counselor, and so on. As much as you want to help, it's not your role to be your parents confidant about their struggles, especially with their spouse. You are their child. You should remain their child, not assume the role of their spouse.

If things get too difficult, dramatic or toxic, you might need to take a break from that parent who is causing the issues. At one point, I did not approve of my dad's behavior. I didn't like the way he was treating my mom, my siblings and me. I told him I wouldn't speak to him until I saw changes in his life for more than a year.

We didn't speak. At one point, I explained in a letter that I wanted a relationship with him, but I wouldn't engage with him until I saw him improve the way he treated every. Eventually he didn't prove. And we resumed our relationship. Sometimes love must be tough like that. Don't be afraid to take a break, write a letter if it's helpful, explain your intentions, but don't expect them to respond well.

If they try to bully you or pressure you to go back on your boundary, don't do it. Find a friend or mentor to talk to about whatever you're going through in situations where you've become your mom or dad's confidant the person with whom they share intimate struggles and rely on for their stability and support.

Tell your parents, mom, dad, I know you're hurting right now. It breaks my heart. I wanna help you, but I have to help you in another way. I can't be the person you bring your problems to. Who can you talk to about all this stuff? Suggest someone they can confide in. If it gets bad enough, contact that person and let them know you need their help since your parent are relying on you too much.

Unfortunately, it's so common for mom and dad to badmouth each other to say mean things and even divulge secrets or rumors about their spouse. Usually it's just done out of frustration. Sometimes it's done in order to turn you against the other parent. If there are details, you need to know a healthy immature parent can sit you down and calmly tell you what happened, but it's not necessary to continually bring up those things.

They might feel like they're at war with their spouse, but that person is so your mom or dad tell them that you can say, dad, it really hurts when you say those things about mom. I know you guys don't like each other, but please remember that. She's still my mom. Would you please not talk about her? When my siblings and I are around, if he doesn't respond well, insist that you will not put up with it, leave the room when he brings up the topic or redirect the conversation.

If things get unsafe or traumatic, make sure to call your other parent or an adult you trust and get away. Another common experience for people like us is being the middleman. The person who relays information between mom and dad, this can be extremely stressful and anxiety provoking. The tricky thing is you might feel that if you were to step away from this role, your siblings will be forced into it.

It doesn't have to be that way. Those aren't the only options. Talk to your mom or dad, or write them a letter convey that you are no longer willing to be a middleman. If they wanna tell each other something, they have to go through their lawyer, counselor, friend, or family member, tell them not to use your siblings in your place as you will not tolerate that either you can start by asking nicely, but be firm.

If they don't comply, there's nothing wrong with being the middleman for simple logistical things like Courtney, when mom or dad will pick you up for the weekend, but don't feel the temptation to be their negotiator. It's not your job. They are adults and they need to act like it. Most importantly, talk to your siblings, make an agreement with them that none of you will be the middleman.

You can even tell your parents that you and your siblings are in agreement and will not allow that to happen. Along with playing the middleman is feeling forced to choose sides. This is called triangulation. Sometimes mom or dad will present you with evidence that the other is bad, whether it's true or not.

And that situation, you can say a few things. You can acknowledge the issue. They're conveying by saying, yes, that's definitely wrong. But if they press you further to pick sides, remind them, dad, what you said she did is disturbing and wrong. But please remember, you're talking about my mom. How would you react if someone told you that about your mom, avoid the pressure to pick sides, do your best to be diplomatic.

In some cases, though, it can happen. That one spouse is totally in the wrong and to blame for almost everything that happened in the breakdown of the marriage and family. In that case, it's okay to be vocal about what you believe is right, but in time, do your best to let your parents figure that stuff out.

You should be their child, nothing. While there are plenty of examples of unhealthy ways to help your parents. There are healthy ways too. Usually it's not complicated. Do your chores around the house. If you're living at home, if you're a handier techy person, help them with some home projects or technology, if they need input on minor decisions, feel free to offer it.

But major decisions shouldn't be placed on you. That's UN unfair to ask. So stick to the simple stuff, never be afraid to say, I'm sorry. I don't know what to say. And I'd prefer not to talk about it. Could you talk to your family or friends about it? If it's possible and healthy, spend time with each parent, build a relationship with them, do things together.

Have good conversations, ask good questions. Keep things light, especially if they're usually heavy and dramatic, as much as you're able, keep the focus on your relationship with that parent. Not the other parent, allow yourself to be a kid it's so common to grow up faster than you should as a child of divorce or separation.

Savor the moments when you can just. Be a kid. That's what it's supposed to be like. I'm so sorry if your childhood has been hijacked because of your parents' decisions. I know what it's like, be honest with how you're feeling. If the parent can't handle your honesty, then make sure you can confide in someone else.

Ideally, a mentor instead of bottling your feeling is inside. Get them off your chest, whether in person or over the phone, communicate with your parents. If the conversation goes south, redirect it with a question or statement such as. Can we talk about something else or I don't wanna talk about this right now.

Avoid arguing over text messages. Email is better. Letters are especially helpful. Just make sure that after you write what you feel needs to be said, you let it sit for a day or two to make sure you aren't saying something that you'll. The goal for your relationship with your parents is that it is a parent child relationship.

When you are an adult, it can become an adult to adult relationship, though. They will always be your parents resist the temptation to be their savior that's God's role. Do your best to love and honor your parents in healthy ways without allowing them or anyone to use or abuse you. In the end, your boundaries and love for your parents will make the relationships healthy, or at least help you avoid a toxic relationship.

Miranda. This is an important question. Important content. I remember I was giving a talk at a university and during the Q and a, after the talk, uh, this probably came up the most people wanted to know, like, how do I help my parents? How do I love them? Especially when they're struggling and suffering, because divorce is hard on our parents too.

And so I think generally we wanna know like, how do we help our parents? So this is, I'm glad we're talking about this. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a huge topic. Think a lot of, especially, you know, when you're in that age of like, you're old enough to understand what's going on, you're old enough to see like how your parents are being affected by it, but you're not, you're not in a position that you can.

Fix things or even really get out of the situation, you know, you're still home or you, uh, you go home a lot. Like if you're in college, you know, you might go home a lot during the holidays, things like that. So you're not in a position where you can really fully disengage. So totally, it's really a tough spot to be, to be honest, like to, to witness someone that you love so much going through such a hard time, but also feeling helpless to.

Yeah to do anything about it. And then you're, you're you yourself are most likely hurting as well, just from the situation that you're going through. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's such a good reminder that you can't fix your parents. You can't fix this situation. I think so often we have that desire.

A lot of us have kind of a, a savior complex where we just wanna rush in and rescue, like everyone's struggling. And I think it's good to remember that we can't do that. Like, like the content in the, um, book says we can, you know, influence them. We can maybe help them in some ways, but we can't rush in and like take the reins, take the driver's seat of their life and do everything for them.

So I love what that you said that I think it's an important reminder. And I think, uh, this question, the popularity of this question kind of surprised me, partly because I think there's this misconception. That, when you come from a broken home, you like hate your parents. And certainly there's some people who, who hate their parents.

No doubt about that. But I think most of us, we really love our parents. We might be hurt by them and we almost always are hurt by them when the family breaks down, but we really love them and we wanna protect them. And even to a fault, like we even protect them to the point of where it maybe hurts us a lot and perhaps even hurts them.

And so I think, uh, I think that's a huge misconception that we maybe hate our parents or don't wanna love them or help them or do what's best for them. Um, but I think deep down, even if it on the surface, we might a pair, like we're struggling with them. I think deep down, we really do love them. We wanna help them.

Oh, definitely. Yeah. Another thing that I loved from the content is our parents, you know, frequently, especially during a divorce, hopefully like after the fact and the things might calm down, but during, and perhaps before, uh, they're really at war with each other. I remember this with my parents. They were like going at each other's necks, like it was rough.

Mm. And so it makes sense that they're just in this aggressive mindset, like they're just, emotions are controlling them, so to speak. And then we're kind of thrust in the middle of this war and they're like, wait, wait, I want you to pick a side. Like you gotta fight this war with me. And that puts us in a really awkward spot.

And so I, I love the reminder in the content that, you know, this is still your mom or your dad. And, and I like that question that we put in there. Like, how would you feel if someone talked about your mom or your dad this way, asking that to our parents? Because I think that kind of puts them in our shoes and makes them realize.

Yeah, I probably shouldn't be saying these things or forcing them to, to pick sides cuz I would feel weird and uncomfortable if someone did the same thing to, to me concerning my parents. And I actually asked my dad that recently, I, you know, I don't know if it stopped him in his tracks, but I think it was something good for him to think about.

Yeah, for sure. I think it's like you said, totally natural. You know, when someone is going through something as emotionally, you know, intense as a separation or divorce that they naturally they're so hurt and experiencing so much pain that to show it it's is it's just natural. It's it's almost inevitable.

Like I, I would say it takes super high degree of self control and virtue to try to. Kind of keep that to yourself or to look for the appropriate outlet. And so inevitably I think what happens a lot of the time, like is that the kids, like we, we get the brunt of it, cuz we spend a lot of time with our parents.

We're we're at home totally quite a bit. And so we end up getting the brunt of this anger of this deep, deep, deep hurt that our parent is experiencing. And even though, like you said, like it is so normal and so understandable. It's also very inappropriate. Because you are not the person that should be hearing those things.

Like mm-hmm, you as, as the child, you know, you as their, their son, like, but that is not information or things that you should be made privy to. Um, and so I'm glad, you know, a lot, some of, one of the elements we focus on in this section is the importance of boundaries. Mm-hmm, establishing those boundaries because again, as, as much as that reaction of like, can you believe this, et cetera, cetera is so it's so normal.

And to a degree, like, I I'd, I'd argue that it's very healthy to express, you know, the frustration that you're when you're going through something like that. But you have to think about it in the right context and with a parent talking about another parent with their child, like that is where the boundary is crossed.

That's where it becomes just inappropriate. And so absolutely. It's really important, like you said, and like you, you know, you had this experience with your dad to set that boundary, which can be really intimidating and scary but so important. Yeah. Cuz you don't know how they're gonna react or I've had these conversations with my mom and my dad in person texting, you know, like we said, texting's not the best, but sometimes it's like, if they're just doing out frustration, which again, like you said might be totally understandable.

It's just, we're not the people they should be bringing it to. But I love what you said that it's usually just a matter of convenience. Like it's not like our parents are typically malicious and trying to damage us. They just we're home. They're frustrated. They need someone to talk to we're there. So it does you're right.

It takes a lot of self control to bring it to the appropriate support, the appropriate outlet, like you said, We touched on this in the content, but it's so damaging to continue that for years and years and years where your mom and your dad are both, maybe are just confiding in you again and again about their, just their struggles.

And, you know, it doesn't mean that we can't love and support them. Like we said, in the book content, but it really means like you just said, we need healthy boundaries and we didn't go into it as much, but it is so damaging for so many reasons. It creates this weird dynamic between your mom and your dad too.

When let's say dad is confiding in you a ton, then it might make mom feel like, well, she is more of a spouse to him than I am or, or whatever. And that could be, you know, of course, before the divorce and it can create all these sorts of unhealthy dynamics where the other parent becomes jealous and. Way, messy stuff.

So we didn't go into all of that, but it is just extremely damaging. And there's been research and psychologists, who've written books about this and talked about, um, this idea of like covert sexual abuse, which doesn't mean like physical abuse, but it means this emotional, unhealthy, emotional dynamic in a parent child relationship where they're basically making you into, into a spouse and the term some people throw around is ation.

And so that's kinda what we're getting at here. We wanna be able to love and help our parents without getting to that level, uh, which again is not only damaging for us, but it's actually really unhealthy and harmful for them too. Absolutely. And I think, you know, what the most tragic part is that it, it, it wounds like our relationship with our parents.

And I would say a lot of times it does drive us the kids away from our parents. I, I know, I, I think my parents were pretty good about this actually. Like I, it was. Very rare for me to hear any, like either parents speak ill of the other. That's awesome. Um, which, yeah, I definitely, in retrospect, it's, it's pretty remarkable, but I did have, um, some friends who, uh, yeah, their parents were going through a really terrible divorce and I, you know, hung out.

I spent a lot of time at their house and I could tell that, you know, the mom was relying on her sons, like as a emotional support and wanting to talk about the divorce all the time. Mm-hmm and wanting to know, you know, like information about the dad and none of it was malicious. None of it was, um, yeah.

Wanting to, to hurt her sons at all. But it was, she was just in so much pain and she. Because they were there and because they were, you know, with her husband spending time with him too, she, it was almost like, yeah, this weird usery, um, like you said, of, of specification. And it was really, and what, what happened is of course, you know, the, the boys, like, they didn't want to talk to their mom anymore because wow.

Anytime that, um, they did, it would just, you know, start with a question. And then just another question that, you know, isn't too bad, but then eventually would become a full on and conversation and discussion and then a fight because they don't wanna talk about it. And it was just created so much tension between them.

Um, and it's not that there wasn't love, like it wasn't that the mom didn't love their, her kids or that the kids didn't love their mom, but it just. It's so it was so detrimental to their relationship because it wasn't the appropriate outlet. And so that is like something that I think is really hard to see in the moment, especially for the parents is mm-hmm, how it's hurting.

Um, not only the kids, but just your relationship with your kids, which is of course, most of the time, the last thing they want. Yeah, absolutely. That's a great reminder, especially than any parents listening right now, it's again, in a way by resisting this unhealthy dynamic, we're trying to save the relationship with you.

Um, even if there are some struggles there and it might not seem great in the long run, it will be much better if this doesn't occur, like Miranda was saying so, so good. And I certainly know that experience. And I've talked with, you know, people through resort or just friends who have explained basically the same thing that you just said about it.

Just being constant, right? Cause when in the midst of a divorce, especially a really messy one. It's so at the forefront of our parents' minds. And so they wanna talk about it all the time and it's just overwhelming. Um, and the, in information digging, I don't know if that's a thing, but yeah, that's like totally, totally real because, uh, I experienced that with my parents.

I know friends of mine and people we work with through ReSTOR have experienced that too, where, you know, mom or dad are out of each other's life, but they're so interested. They wanna know like what's going on in their other person's life. And so they'll either directly ask or maybe kind of indirectly passive, aggressively mention some things, kind of looking for a response.

And again, I don't think, you know, most of it's not malicious, but there is just that desire for them to know like, oh, is she dating again? Or is she with another person? Or, you know, what are they doing with their money or, you know, all sorts of topics that they could bring up. And it just puts you in such a tough spot as a child, cuz it's like, well, I just wanna love you.

And I just wanna love my other parent. You know, why do I have to be this middle man? Who's like a spy passing information back. It, it just shouldn't be that way. Not only that, but you're also processing everything that's going on yourself. So it's like, it's hard. It's hard enough to cope with our own, our own pain and suffering at seeing at like at the breakdown of the family.

And then also seeing our parents suffer. So like, we're getting this double whammy of our family's falling apart. And additionally, we see that our parents are struggling with, with what's going on. And then on top of that, there's this unfair expectation of being, like you said, an informant or, uh, or an emotional.

Um, support that, that we, you know, we don't have the capacity to, to be absolutely. Yeah. It's almost like getting hit with, like, if you're in a boxing ring it's like getting hit like in three different places at the same time. Mm-hmm and it's, that's a lot to handle. It's a lot to take in. Another thing that, uh, we touched on a little bit is big decisions.

So parents, I know sometimes maybe feel kind of lost or they feel emotionally depleted and they might not be, uh, in a good spot to make decisions. So they might rely on other people, especially with their kids to make these decisions for them, or to have a heavy amount of input. I know I've dealt with this with, with my parents, especially with my mom.

And again, I think it comes from a good place, like generally wanna know like what they should do in a given situation, especially certain temperaments, I think struggle more with making decisions. So they might be more likely to rely on their kids, but big decisions can be really, really tough. Cuz for example, Some parents come to their kids and they say, you know, should I get divorced or not?

And you know, we could probably answer, no, no, I don't want you to get divorced. I want you to work through the issues, but to, you know, a 14, 16 year old kid, that's really a tough spot to be in. Because if you say, no, maybe your parents' gonna hate you. If you say yes, and you're probably gonna feel guilty.

And that thing is part of the reason. A lot of us feel like it's our fault. is, um, maybe we did have some sort of input like that. I remember when my parents were going through the process of the divorce, the legal case, it was, um, very messy. It was a three year process, which is insane. Typically two years is like really long.

It's usually done in a year. I, I, three years and it was always dramatic. So I remember my mom kind of just, you know, even bringing us with her to the attorney's office. And I was like, looking back, I'm like, yeah, that definitely shouldn't have happened. No, like this call. Yeah. Yeah. Like I get why she did, she needed the support, but it really should have been maybe her sister or her brother or someone from church, someone like that who could have been there for her, not.

My siblings and I absolutely, absolutely. And I think another one that we touched on too, is the tendency for people like us to grow up too fast. I know that certainly happened with me cuz my parents separated when I was, you know, 11 and I felt like I just skipped years of my life in a very real way. And I know my older brother I'm number two in my family, my older brother even experienced that even more strongly because he had to fill that role in very real way, uh, for my dad's, with my dad's absence.

And so that can be really tough and that can cause so many issues. I think later down the road, what a lot of uh, times happens is, uh, if you have a guy or, or a woman who, you know, skips part of their childhood later in life, they may have the tendency to kinda act like a child. May, maybe not in like ridiculous ways, but even in being irresponsible with their finances, John Eldridge in one of his books, talks about how, you know, a, a boy who kind of skipped certain parts of his childhood and, you know, especially who wasn't delighted and in love the way that he should have been, uh, later in life, when he has the means to do it, he might kind of treat himself with all sort.

Toys such as like cars or technology and things like that. And that's almost a way of going back in time and undoing what he missed. And so I think that happens really often with people like us too. And I know in my experience, um, I certainly, like I said, felt like I matured a lot through the separation and it was, um, it was unfortunate.

And so I think it's something you really need to mourn and kind of grieve, but, but I think it is very common for people like us to, to mature, uh, more quickly than we should. Did you experience that in, in your life? Definitely. And I think a lot of what happens a lot of the time, and this was my case too, is that there's usually one parent who ends up struggling financially.

You know, if you're, if a lot of times the mom, you know, may have stopped working or worked part-time to be home with the kids or something along those lines, then all of a sudden, you know, they're not able to have the financial. Stability that they had when they were married. And so then they're, you know, enter the picture, serious financial struggles.

And for me, that was definitely the case pretty soon after, after the divorce. And so, you know, all, you know, you're 12, I was, you know, probably 13, 14 worrying about things like we need towels or, you know, a vacuum cleaner or like, you know, things like that. And you know, it wasn't, you know, we were, we were taking care of like, we, I definitely like there was always food on the table and things like that.

It never got to, to a really terrible point, which I'm sure has happened to, to people who are listening to this. But yeah, it was definitely a strain you could say. And it was something that at that age was not something I should be worried about. And. I was, it was definitely like a big, a big concern. And now, you know, it's funny, you mentioned the John elders comment, but I definitely find myself overcompensating sometimes where, you know, like I, I experience to a degree, a sense of lack, a sense of there's not enough.

And, and so I kinda go overboard and like, I have to have an abundance, you know, an abundance of, of savings or an abundance of, you know, XYZ in the closet or in the pantry or whatever, you know, sometimes it's like, you know, you have to take a step back and ask yourself, you know, is this really necessary?

But you're, it's like the, that seeking for security that I missed, you know, during those years. And so I think a lot of times. With young adults who, who are going through this, um, you do see a financial burden on one or both parents mm-hmm and that can affect you emotionally like that. Can. Kinda change your gears and, uh, make you more serious and, and grow up faster and, you know, think about those things sooner than you than you really should.

Absolutely. It makes me think of the story that we started with, um, in this question about the 14 year old boy and man that is so devastating, right. It's just, he literally had to worry about kinda like you did. Um, but like you said to a little bit more of an extreme about putting food on the table for his dad, um, who's just totally wrecked by the, the breakdown of his marriage and mom leaving.

And so man, talk about having to grow up too fast and worry about things that you really shouldn't have to worry about. And I I'd imagine in that case, finances were a struggle as well, but that's such a good point. I think it's so common that divorce is just very, very expensive too. So even. Maybe before the divorce, your family was in a decent spot through it.

They could have got kind of cleaned out, honestly, like I know mm-hmm, personally know people who have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars in divorces just know of know of parents and it's insane. And so you could either, you know, maybe lose your savings or lose a lot of your money or you maybe go into debt and that causes all sorts of other issues.

So it makes sense in your case that, you know, you try to overcompensate and still find yourself having that tendency and in an attempt to find security. It totally makes sense. I remember hearing a story. I think this is right, um, that after the American soldiers, uh, freed. Some of the, um, people who are in concentration camps in world war II, they were so mal, uh, nourished.

They were so, uh, depleted of nutrients, they were so hungry that they wanted to just stuff, their faces with food. Um, but they had to control them because if they did that, they would've died. And I think some of them did and I, I don't know the exact stories. It was just, they were so hungry. So they were just trying to overcompensate by eating as much as they could, which ended up really, really harming them.

So I think it's an appropriate analogy and certainly a tragic historical thing. But, um, yeah, I think it's an appropriate analogy for people like us that just to be aware right. Of the tendencies that we have and maybe why we're doing certain things. And then just that awareness alone I've found can be so helpful in maybe course correcting a little bit, you know, making sure that you're not, um, you know, buying a car that's too expensive or putting too many things in your pantry.

I, I know, uh, I think that can help a lot and even being vulnerable with other people, I think is really useful as well. Just sharing kinda like we're doing now with everyone listening. It's like, Hey, this is, you know, a tendency of mine. This is where I struggled. And they're able to kind of call you on it and help you in those situations.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think I'm really glad we, we touched later on in the booklet, in the book on the topic of self care, because I think a lot of the kind of like needs that aren't met, like, you know, financial or emotional during this period, we there ends up like being this emptiness there. And so.

In a different section of the book, we cover a lot of topics regarding self-care so that mm-hmm we can properly fill that gap, um, and not, you know, rely on unhealthy measures. Like we're saying, you know, you know, trying to overcompensate financially, or, or emotionally or physically for something that, that was taken from us, um, during this season.

And if you take care of your needs, basically what you're saying, what I hear you saying is if you take care of your needs, it could remove some of the tendencies or the need to overcompensate, because you're kind of balanced in those other areas. Mm-hmm , mm-hmm . The last thing I was thinking, uh, I love that quote, people can change.

You can't change them. It comes from a business guy. I follow Daniel tardy. Awesome. Awesome guy kind of put that together. And I think it's a great phrase because it really reminds us that people do have the potential to, to change, to grow, to improve, to heal. Um, but we can't do it for them. And I think there's just such a tendency, kinda like we talked about before to, to just to be the savior, to jump in, to, to change someone.

And I think the better approach is to change yourself. and to really grow and become the best version of yourself. And by doing that, that alone inspires change in other people. And if you've never experienced that, I understand why you might not think that's possible, but it's actually true. And alcoholics anonymous, the support groups for people who are, um, alcoholics, or they, you know, maybe love someone who is an alcoholic.

Uh, that's what they teach the spouses to do. They say. We understand you want to help your spouse stop drinking so much, but you can't do that by, you know, nagging them. You can't do that by maybe forcing them to change. You really have to do it by just becoming the best you becoming healthy and whole.

And then what will happen is that person eventually will see what you have, see your joy, see how good life is for you, and they'll want it to cause that's attractive. And then they'll have the internal drive, the impetus to then change their own life. And that's really the way that it has to work. And that's super hard.

to swallow. I know personally I've struggled with this. Absolutely. Yeah. I think it kind of comes down to controlling the controllables and your parents are not something you can control, but you can, you are in charge of your own choices. And you know, recently someone challenged me with this of. You know, what kind of person do you wanna be and really taking that into serious consideration and then asking yourself, like, does this choice, you know, contribute to the person you wanna be or not?

I think leading by example in that way can be, you know, fill you with so much peace and satisfaction. And then also, you know, not, maybe not always, but a lot of the times can also offer some encouragement and inspiration to your parents. Totally. Yeah, no, that's a great point. And I think the piece that you experience from that, just kind of letting go of the things you can't control.

Like you said, it's amazing. , it's so good. And, uh, sure. It can be hard to get to that point, but once you do it, it's so good. And, and you're right. It's, it's a good point to say that it won't always happen. Where if you become the best version of yourself, then it's automatically gonna change everyone around you.

It's just not automatic. Of course, they still have to choose, but it makes it much more likely. And, uh, if nothing else, I think it's gonna put you in a better spot in life and it's gonna help you to just build a better future for yourself. Definitely. Good stuff. Miranda. Let's dive into the next question.

Okay.

Question 28. How do I deal with my parents moving on in life and relationships? Years ago I visited a friend's family. The parents are divorced though. The marriage was annoyed. It was still difficult for my friend to see his mom dating again. That weekend, his mom's new boyfriend from out of town visited without my friend, knowing he was coming, it made my friend extremely uncomfortable and caused him a lot of anxiety to be blindsided and thrown into what felt like forced bonding.

Sadly, that story is not uncommon watching your parents move on is anything but easy, especially when it happens so fast. It might look like watching your parents start dating again, or get remarried looking for a fresh start. Mom and or dad can even abandon their family for a new family, welcoming a parent's new boyfriend or girlfriend into your life is extremely painful and challenging.

Building a relationship with your stepparent might be harder than you think it should be, or even feel impossible. You might even realize that mom and dad are breaking their wedding vows by the way they're living, which is even more heartbreaking. Honestly, it's not supposed to be this way. And this is something that is very difficult to endure your parent's significant other or new spouse brings a whole host of problems and challenges into your life.

Especially if that person is around often or moves in with you and your parent, you may feel angry, sad, hurt, trapped, betrayed as if you don't have control over your life and completely overwhelmed by all the change and accompanying emotions. You also will likely feel pressure from your parent to accept this new person into your life right away and be happy for them.

This is neither fair, nor realistic. You are entitled to feel everything listed above and more. And to express those feelings. If your parent cannot receive them, divulge your thoughts to a mentor or another adult, you can trust our parents can get so consumed by seeking their own happiness or trying to move on from the hurt they experience that they overlook the suffering.

Their new life causes us. It doesn't mean our parents are bad people or that they don't love us, but we are nevertheless put in a situation that should never happen in the first place. It is not okay. And we are not obliged to pretend that it is first never feel that you need to force yourself to have a relationship with a boyfriend, girlfriend, or new spouse of your parent.

You have every right to take that at your own pace. You can be kind and cordial to them while still holding back from engaging in a relationship with them. If mom or dad are forcing you or even threatening you to have a relationship with their new spouse partner or their children kindly yet firmly place your boundaries, tell them what you will and will not allow if you need space, because the person is around all the timers, moved in, pick up a hobby or activity that you will enjoy and will take some time away from the house.

Start working a part-time job if possible, or stay with a friend or family member every so often. It's okay. Not to be able to handle the proximity of the situation. Part of the reason it's hard to watch your parents move on is that it's not supposed to be this way. Marriage is supposed to be for life.

It might sound idealistic, but that's what God intended and what the marriage vows promise. When that shatters it is naturally very disruptive. It's okay to feel that way. If you don't feel comfortable with it, you can admit to them that this isn't how it's supposed to be. Your parents moving on, can also ruin any hope you're holding onto that.

They would get back together subconsciously or consciously. We often hope that our parents might reunite and find a happy ending to their broken marriage, watching them date and remarry, Smothers that hope if you have concerns about a parent's dating relationship, communicate that to them. See the bonus material for a script on having a difficult conversation.

If your parent's significant other or stepparent is mistreating you. Don't stay silent. Tell your parents or a mentor. If your concerns are dismissed, place, proper boundaries to protect yourself at the end of the day, your direct influence on your parents is likely very limited, except that you have limited control over the situation.

It's not your responsibility to be your parents' moral policemen. It's not your responsibility to be the savior of their souls. It's not your responsibility to fix or change them. You can always speak the truth to them in love, but never think their actions are your fault. They're not instead focus on living your own life.

Give yourself what you need. Space time with friends, activities that bring you joy or even therapy to cope with this difficult situation, become the best version of your. Heal and grow. So you could feel whole again and experience the joy of living a life fully alive. Your example will speak louder than any words you say

Miranda. Another really important question. Uh, I think the first thing that comes to mind with it is we often get thrusted into some pretty awkward situations. Kind of like I mentioned with my friends, it can be really hard to just be forced into that without any sort of choosing on our end and having very little control over the situation.

Yeah. It's definitely, I think, depending on how your parents handle it and you know, when in the process it happens, it can be very traumatic. Mm-hmm um, that was certainly certainly the case for me. I. Yeah, it's just, it's really complicated I guess, but there's a lot of things that can go wrong, unfortunately with it and, you know, yeah.

It, it's, it's a tough, it's a really tough situation that I think is normalized. So, you know, it's kind of, if you watch a movie about, you know, people who are divorced or TV shows, or, um, just talking to, you know, your average person on the street, like, they're, they're gonna say that, you know, it's pretty normal.

Once, once people get divorced to start dating again, maybe not immediately after, but at some point in the future. And it's just treated like, it's a very normal thing that that is is okay. And, you know, I think it, people miss the effect that it has on the kids and how. Absolutely unnatural. It is for us and how, um, like disturbing it can be for us to see our, our mom and dad with, with someone who isn't our parent.

And there is this mentality of, and, you know, we kind of go into this in different parts of the book, but there is this mentality of like, you, you should want your parents to be happy. Mm. Um, and if you don't, you're not a good, you know, being a good kid, you're being selfish. And, you know, I think that's definitely a false dichotomy.

Like we absolutely want our parents to be happy, but, you know, to say that they need someone else to be happy. Like that's, that's not true. Even if they feel that way, that's not objectively a true statement, but also for, for your parent to date may not be the right thing. But also even if, if the situation, you know, maybe there was an enrollment and.

And dating is kind of permissible, you know, to have an expectation for us to like be on board right off the bat and, and like that there's no awkwardness that there's no, like pain is, is totally unfair. And I think it's really sad that so many of us have to go through this without feeling like we, we have our feelings, um, validated in any way.

Um, instead there it's very dismissed mm-hmm and depressed and. Just unfortunate all around, I think. Absolutely. And I love what you said about the question that a lot of people will ask like, well, don't you want your parents to be happy? And the answer it's kind of a loaded question cause the answer of course is like, well, yes I do.

But another perspective is, but not at all costs. It's like, there's a lot of things you can do that may make you give you some emotional satisfaction that might be really bad things to do. and we wouldn't say that we want our parents or anyone we know to be happy at the expense of doing something, you know, morally wrong or at the expense of doing something.

Um, that's just not good for them. And you know, like you said, in some cases, maybe it's, um, they're, you know, in a spot where they can date in other cases, they're not. Um, but either way we wouldn't say that we want them to be happy at any cost, cuz we wouldn't say that about anyone in our lives. And I think that a good question is, is it more important to be happy or is it more important to do what is right and.

It's a difficult question, cuz I think a lot of times in our culture, we just exalt happiness as like the ultimate goal and kind of anything it takes to get there is permissible, even if we hurt people along the way. And I think that's often what happens in situations like this. Um, again, there's a lot of details.

We're not judging every person's situation. I don't wanna make it sound like it's so black and white cuz sometimes there, you know, there's situations that deserve a little bit more nuance, but overall I think we can talk about these things like this and just caution that, um, when people ask you that question, there's more to it than just that.

And I think so often because of that pressure, we feel MERTA. We don't say anything, we just kind of shut our mouths and we. Yeah, just kind of keep quiet about what we might be struggling with. And especially if mom or dad just seem like they're in a better spot. Um, we might just be happy for them and not wanna kind of break up their sort of, um, you know, their dream or their happy place or whatever you wanna call it.

And, and it could be, it could be really hard. Absolutely. And I think a really hard part of this is when you are still living at home and you're going through this, you, you, you get this feeling of being trapped because mm-hmm, , this is painful. This is really uncomfortable. And so emotionally, like you're trapped in that regard, but then physically, you know, you're dependent on your parent.

You need to go home. Um, you need to spend time there and you might be in a situation where one of your parents started dating and like that person is over. A lot, like you, you physically, it feels like you're trapped. You know, it feels like you have, and I think, unfortunately that's when some of those unhealthy coping mechanisms that we talk about kick in.

Um, we talk about that in a different part of the book, but it's so inescapable like that, the pressing reality of like my mom or my dad is with someone new and I can't do anything about it. I can't say anything about it. I can't feel anything about it. And I also just like, can't get away from it, you know, cuz cuz I need to be home so I can do my homework or you know, go to sleep, you know, or eat, get some, you know, food, things like that.

I'm I'm dependent. So I think all of that, like we totally understandably turn, try to turn to things that will bring us any sort of comfort, any sort of relief, any sort of, yeah, just like just relief. And so that's when. I think, uh, a lot of us might turn to things that are actually like really, really destructive.

Um, but we feel like there's no other, there's nothing else we can do. Absolutely. I, it makes me think of a young woman that I corresponded with who, uh, I forget, I think it was a messy situation with her parents, but basically if she would've really said what she thought to her dad, he would've pulled away financial.

She, she knows that for certain. And so that's a really tough spot to be. And if you're, you know, dependent on your parents financially, like you said, it's really difficult to be able to express everything that you want maybe to them. And so I guess our advice here is first off, kinda like we covered in the, the book.

It's okay to feel whatever you feel like you have permission to feel that. And, you know, even if on the other end of the spectrum, this isn't a very big deal to you. Like maybe it's like, okay, I'd never really. Much about it. That's okay. You know, you, you don't have to totally have experience what Marin, ours sharing or the stories that we told.

Um, it's okay. Wherever you're at. That's okay. But, but it's okay to feel hurt by it if you do as well. And, uh, in that case, you might need to kind of fly under the radar a little bit until you can get on your own financially before you're able to maybe say the things that you really, that need to be said, and that could be a tough spot, but you can put little boundaries in place.

You can do some of the minor things in the meantime, even while you're living at home or dependent on your parents. Um, and then later maybe your. Could be a little bit more open with them now, ideally, you'd be able to be open with them even while you're at home, they would receive what you're saying and just like, love you through that and be empathetic.

But we all know that doesn't always happen, unfortunately. So you really have to be, uh, kind of cunning and, and just use your best judgment in these situations. That's why it's so difficult. I think we give some good principles, um, in the book and in this podcast, but then the application of those principles take some real judgment, take some real prudence and, and that can be hard.

Yeah. I just wanna encourage anyone who maybe it's struggling through this. And I, I just remember feeling like I had no one that I could talk to about it because everyone, whenever I did tried to bring it up, it was like, I mean, yeah, I can see where you're coming from, but this is normal. This is okay.

This is, you know, and, and I just, everywhere. I turned, you know, friends that loved me or family member, you know, everyone that. and all other regards were, were great people in my life for this specific issue. There was no real empathy. There was no true understanding because it's like, yeah, it's like going to the dentist, you know, it's like, it's not fun.

Mm-hmm , but it's part of life and it's normal and it's gonna be okay. And I just want you to know, you know, like it is okay to not be okay with this and to feel just pain and hurt. And sometimes, you know, you might feel betrayed or yeah, there can be a lot of really like angry, you know, you might feel angry about the situation.

So we, we definitely want to just offer like that empathy. And, you know, again, going back to our pre the previous question we addressed controlling the controllables, you know, you may not be in a position where. You can even talk to your parents about it. Hopefully, hopefully you can, but if you can't, you know, you, you do have control over, um, how you, how you handle the situation and you have control over ships or taking care of your yourself, physically.

Those are things that, that you do have control over. And, you know, even if it's in the smallest ways, uh, making, making, taking steps towards health. Yeah, I definitely. I think it's a hard, it's definitely can be a really tough situation to be in, but there's definitely a lot of hope too. Yeah, absolutely. And like you said, we certainly get it.

We've been through this ourselves. It's difficult. And I, I love your advice to talk to someone. So basically guys, everyone listening, talk to someone on the outside because especially if you're really dependent on mom or dad at home, it's important maybe to kind of get away from it and get in contact with someone who gets it, who really understands and who will empathize with you.

And who's not really in the midst of the situation. And so I wanted to give a little plug for our community. I think this is a great tool for you to do exactly that. And so if you wanted join our online community, you can go to restored ministry.com/community. Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/community.

On there. You, you can discuss these things with young people like you who've been through them. We get it. Like you're never gonna face a situation where someone's like, uh, no, this is normal. Like, this is good. No, we, we get it. We're gonna talk truthfully to you and we're gonna listen empathetically. So we'd love to have you in the community.

Again. ReSTOR ministry.com/. Community. I think another very real struggle is kind of being forgotten when mom or dad move on in life. And that might be in a new family that might be, uh, in a new city that might just be not far away from where you're living now, but they just get so consumed with their new life that you're kind of put in the back burner.

And I've heard this, especially from people we've worked with Miranda who maybe mom or dad started, you know, another family, they have step siblings now. And it seems like the step siblings kind of get all the attention and it's almost like they're just forgotten and left over. And that is a really hard place to be.

Oh yeah. And I think it's like almost cliche, right? Like Cinderella, you know, stepsisters, get all the, get all the goods and Cinderella's kind of, you know, made the skull made. And I think most, most situations aren't that traumatic, but I do think that our parents, because. You know, they're in a new relationship.

They want to make a good impression. They want to, they go like overboard to, um, tend to step siblings and to, yeah. Give them attention, make them feel welcome, et cetera, et cetera. Mm-hmm . And so we're kind of the person that they're dating or the person that maybe they even are newly married to wanting to make everything go smooth.

So we might, you know, our relationship with our parents might fall on the wayside, which can also be really hard. And yeah, because the person they're dating, unfortunately, because which is, you know, an understandable reaction because that's not how it should. Right. It's so messy. It's so messy. And it's almost like we're a reminder of a past failure, right.

Being from the original family and this new family or new life is just a new start. It's kinda like a fresh start, so to speak. And so we just get forgotten and, and then it doesn't always happen. Not, we're not pretending it does. Sometimes parents, you know, do their best to balance both. Um, but it really shouldn't be this way.

And it's just so messy and such a hard place to be. I think another really common thing is kind of, like we mentioned in the book, uh, parent moving on really quickly, like after a divorce that happens a lot and that's like really damaging and hard. Um, but also moving on without telling you, like. It's really typical.

I remember one of my friends, one of my close friends in college, she, um, yeah, she just found out her dad was getting married. I think she might have just found out through like a, save the date or an invitation or something, man. That is tough. You know, when you maybe lose contact with one of your parents and then you find out, oh, they're getting married or they already got married and they already have a family.

And I know there's really messy situations where maybe there was an affair going on and there was this whole other family that, that your parent was providing for or engaging with that you had no clue about. So there can be a lot of surprise. There can be a lot of fast moving that can be really, really difficult to stomach.

Absolutely. One other thing I think we struggle with too, is I think all of us at some level have a hope that our parents could get back together and make their marriage work again, like heal the marriage, make it whole, bring our family back together. I, I think that's such a deep desire in all of us.

Like we just want our families to be whole. We just ultimately would want them to, to be back together. Even if we feel like that's not even possible. Even if we know intellectually, it's like, no, that would never happen. Uh, I think there's just this little shimmer of hope in most of our hearts that wants that at some level.

And I remember in the book that Layla Miller wrote a primal loss where she shares the stories of adult children of divorce. One of 'em said at some point, I don't remember what part of the book, but they basically said, uh, once one of their parents died, it really destroyed all hope. They had. For their parents to get back together and they didn't even realize they were holding onto that for years.

It was like the first thought that came into their mind when they found out that their mom or dad died. It was just that, oh, well I guess mom and dad won't get back together, which is really profound the years, a few years after the separation or divorce. That's, you know, a hope that we, that we have when we're faced with a situation where we, that hope is crushed like that, that hope is, um, is taken away from us.

Like it, it it's devastating. And it's like, it's a deep, very real loss. And I think it's something that needs to be acknowledged, you know, within us and of two people who had, had vowed to spend their, their lives together. Like. That is a good thing, you know, to, it might seem juvenile or like this is, you know, impossible would never happen.

And you know, most of the times it doesn't, but I think it's just important to affirm, like that is a good desire. That is a valid hope. And, you know, losing that when, when you're faced with, with parents, moving on is a true loss and it's something that needs to be grieved. So. Yeah, I think Myrta one thing you taught me a while back was that we all have this longing for redemption and you see that a lot in stories, whether it's a movie or a novel, how, you know, so many stories are stories of redemption where there's some brokenness or some big problem in a person's life.

And then the whole story is really a struggle to deal with that and to come through on the other side. And so I think, like you said, it's just so natural and normal to, to feel this desire. Um, even if it won't become a reality or even if it can't become a reality, cuz maybe, you know, one parent died or there's like an really toxic, abusive situation that the parents have to be separated.

It, it it's so hard, but it makes sense. Absolutely. One thing that you'll notice guys that we put a lot in this book, it's kind of recurring theme is that you just need to focus on yourself. It doesn't mean you shouldn't love and help other people or love and help your parents in some ways, but that the focus needs to be on you.

And like we covered in the commentary on the last, uh, question from the book. We really want you to know that you have to control what you can control. You have to just focus on becoming the best you, and through that, it'll be the best thing you can do to, to help your mom or your dad. And so we, we really reemphasize that again and again, in the book.

And so I just wanna encourage you to pick up the book, get the book. Um, I'll tell you a little bit in the outro, how to do that. Um, but we really, really, um, hope this is helpful. We've been working on this for a long time. We've put a lot of thought into it and gotten a lot of feedback on how to make it better.

And so this really is a manual, a playbook for you to navigate these difficult situations. Um, and one thing I, I know for myself, it's like, even if I know some of these things, one, it's always good to be reminded and two in a really intense situation. It's easy for all that knowledge to just go out the window.

And so if you have something physically before you like this book where you can, in a situation where you're struggling with your parents, or you wanna know how to deal with them, moving on. You can just open up that question, read it and be reminded, uh, of what you can do, what you should do in that situation.

And also just receive some empathy from, from us, uh, from me writing this book because you, you deserve that. You really do. And so, uh, one thing I also wanted to say, I know in the content that I read, there's some mention of bonus material. So bonus material, there's a bunch of bonus material that we include.

I won't go into it right now, but we include with the book that is meant to help you even further. So that comes free when you purchase the book, but it's really there to, to offer a little bit more guidance than we were able to cover within the content of the book itself. Miranda, thank you so much for, for being here.

Thanks for discussing this. I think this is gonna help a lot of people.

I wanna leave you with a question that you can think about you can reflect on and that's this, what are one or two things that you can do? To love and help your parents today, or this week,

give that some thought, come up with some really practical things that you can do. And hopefully the content in this episode helped you figure that. Again, you could get the first chapters for free from my new book. It's not your fault. A practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce.

Just go to ReSTOR ministry.com/books. Again, ReSTOR ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. Just enter your name and email and we'll send you the first chapters for free. Go to ReSTOR ministry.com/books. Or just click the link in the show notes. The resources mentioned on the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 52.

Thank you so much for listening, and this has been useful. Feel free to subscribe, and if you know someone who's struggling from their parents to divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you are born to be.

#051: Music: A Powerful Tool to Help You Cope & Heal | Jenny & Tyler

Music has always been a tool to cope with the pain and problems from my parents’ divorce. Two artists whose music helped me a lot are Jenny and Tyler, a married musical duo. Their music and marriage have especially convinced me that love can last. 

In this episode, they share:

• Lessons they’ve learned after years in marriage that would’ve been helpful to know before they got married. 

• Encouragement to anyone from a broken home who’s afraid of love and marriage. 

• Advice to anyone who’s afraid of taking risks - as artists, they know a thing or two about taking risks

Listen to Jenny & Tyler

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

One thing that has always helped me deal with the pain and the problems from my parents' divorce is music playing it. I played piano for a bit growing up, but especially listening to it. There's just something about music that was so helpful. And it really became for me a healthy way of coping instead of a lot of the unhealthy ways that I was.

Tempted to, and two artists that really inspired me and his music just helped me a ton. Join me on the show today. They're a beautiful, married couple that really sing about love and especially the messiness of life. And one of the things about their music and especially their beautiful marriage have done for me is they've convinced me that love can last.

And I'm so excited for you to meet them. And in the show, some of the things you're gonna hear, what you're gonna get out of it. You're gonna hear us discuss lessons that they've learned after years in marriage. That really would've been helpful for them to know before they got married. They also share some advice.

Anyone who comes from a broken home is maybe terrified, afraid of love and marriage. We talk about why music helps us deal with the pain and messiness of life, and also how music can bring so much beauty, so much joy into the grayness and dullness of our lives. And then they offer some advice to anyone who's afraid of taking risks.

As artists they've had to take a lot of risks, they know a thing or two about. And so they share some of their wisdom that they've gained along the. But honestly, most of all, I'm just excited for you to hear from this beautiful, married couple who prove that love can last and can be beautiful even years into marriage.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 51. We have a big announcement for you guys. We've written a book now I'm teasing it.

Now there's gonna be more info on it later, how you can buy it all sorts of things. But just to let you know, this is a practical guide. This book is a practical guide to help you successfully navigate the pain and problems from your parents' divorce or separation. It's written in a question and answer format with advice on how to handle the most common challenges that people like us face such.

I struggle with low self-esteem. How can I become more confident after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted and adequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me. Self-harm is my way of coping. How do I stop? How can I cope in healthy ways instead of unhealthy ways? What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life?

How do I avoid repeating the mistakes my parents made and build a healthy marriage. I feel broken. Like something is wrong with me. How can I heal and feel whole again? What can I do to heal my relationship with my parents? Why does God let bad things happen? Like my parents divorce, how can I discern my calling in life?

When I feel so anxious and uncertain and many. Questions that we answer over 30 questions and answers in this book. And some of the benefits you'll learn how to cope with your pain in healthy ways. Instead of unhealthy ways, you'll become a better, stronger, more virtuous person. If you put the advice in the book into action, you'll learn how to overcome emotional problems.

You'll be given tactics to build healthy relationships. You'll find evidence based strategies that help you. You'll learn how to navigate your relationship with your parents, and you'll learn how to improve your relationship and even heal your relationship with God. And this stuff is so practical. This isn't theory, it's down to earth.

It's common sense advice. That's based on research based on expert advice and the stories that we've heard from people like you, people who come from broken families. Again, it comes out in September more info to follow on this. The next podcast episode, but if you want to get in on the special offers that we're gonna be offering before the launch, go ahead and subscribe to our email list@restoredministry.com.

Again, restored ministry.com. Just scroll to the bottom of the page, put in your email, your name. I'm so excited to share this book with you. We've been working on it for months and the feedback we've gotten from people who've been given an advanced copy. Who've given us feedback on it have been so solid.

So we're really excited to share this book with you more in photo. My guests today are Jenny and Tyler. They met in 2004 at the university of Delaware, and it was there that they started writing songs together and even performing together as friends before long, they started dating. And two years after that, they recorded a record together in Nashville.

And that same year, Tyler asked Jenny to marry him today. They live in Nashville with their three daughters, Jenny and Tyler. Sold over 35,000 albums. They've seen over 20 million streams on apple music and Spotify and played over 1100 concert dates over the past decade of playing music together, their songs have been featured on ABC's pretty little liars, New York med MTV's teen mom, CBC's Heartland.

And YouTube's kid president aside from music, Jenny and Tyler are passionate about fighting human trafficking, which is the modern slavery. In fact, in nearly every show they raise. For the organization, international justice mission. And they say that being a part of something bigger than the two of them has strengthened their marriage.

Absolutely love this couple. They're so real. They're such a beautiful model for married love. I know you're gonna be inspired by them and I know you're gonna love their music if you check it out, but let's not wait any longer. Here's my conversation with Jenny and Tyler,

Jenny and Tyler. Thank you so much for coming on the. Thanks for having us. Yeah, man. Thank you. I've been a fan of yours for a while. Like I mentioned when I was back in college in Steubenville, um, my roommate went to your concert and he's like, you gotta listen to these guys. And so I did and I just, yeah, love your music.

You both are really an inspiring couple and that's something that's always, uh, really stuck with me. Just seeing the way that you love each other. And I'm sure you guys aren't perfect. I'm sure you have your flaw, but, um, you should see us fight now. No but yeah, but you guys, it's so inspiring, especially as someone who comes from a broken family who just didn't see marriage go well, uh, it's really inspiring to see a couple who can, you know, build a, a beautiful marriage and make love last.

And so that's why I was so excited to, to talk to you, cuz I think everyone in our audience is so hungry for that. We wanna. Bill loved it last. We wanna not repeat what we saw in our parents' marriage. And so I I'm psyched to, to talk with you guys. I wanted to start with your story. How did you meet? Tell us?

Well, we met at the university of Delaware back in 2004, so we're. Getting old, but it's okay. um, we, yeah, we met through a campus ministry, the Baptist student ministry on a bus that was taking students from campus to a local church. I sat behind Tyler and he was super friendly and turned around and started talking to me.

And I ended up getting involved in that Baptist student ministry, which he was already part of. So we started hanging out a ton. Pleading worship together, performing writing. And it just like, there was a friendship that, you know, turned into a dating relationship and the musical aspect of things, and it was kind of like a never look back sort of.

Sort of relationship my life. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I don't have anything to add. that's beautiful. No, no, I love it. And it's, it's cool that you guys were able to start that friendship first. I think, especially just in our dating culture today, it's not always possible. Especially if you're like a professional in the world, a lot of times, like the only time you might be exposed to, uh, someone is through maybe a dating app or, or going out on dates, maybe your friend groups aren't together.

So it's awesome. You guys had that at that point in your life? Yeah, I, we say now, like, I don't know how people. Do the dating thing anymore. I agree meeting in college was such a gift because I can't imagine having to do all the online stuff. And I know it works out for people, but I'm very grateful that I'm even just grateful that texting wasn't a thing.

When we started dating, like nobody was texting, we had to meet up or like talk to each other on the phone. And I'm grateful that that. That was what was going on when we, when we met each other. I hear you. I hear you. I, uh, I wanna fast forward a little bit. So you guys, how long have you been married at this point?

Um, it'll be 14 years in about two and a half or three weeks. Yeah. On the 30th of June. Yeah. Yep. End of the month. Congratulations. And that's just amazing. It's such a big, that's crazy. seriously. 15 years. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. So what, what lessons, uh, have you learned after that many years in marriage that maybe you wish you would've known earlier that would've been helpful?

Before you got married for me, it's seeking to understand the other person, uh, like really understand, figuring out where they're coming from. Like yeah. What is causing them to say this right now? Could it be X, Y, and Z that they've experienced? And just like, how is, how is that making them feel at this moment?

I struggle with empathy, man. And Jenny has always been better. With empathy than I have. Mm-hmm . And so that's something I'm, I'm learning, I'm wanting more of, yeah. To like the scripture actually talks about like trying to under like live in an understanding way. And I think for me, that's not just, it, it takes a lot of listening and not, uh, having anything.

Kind of in the back of my head as a response, like you're saying this right now. So this is my defense because I'm, I don't know if you do engram stuff, but I'm, I think I'm a seven wing eight. So I've got this like challenger wing that I, I wanna be defensive. I, I don't wanna li my natural response is I don't wanna listen.

I don't wanna understand where she's coming from and I wanna just defend how I am, right. Or how, how I think I'm right. And so, uh, really fighting against those tendencies in myself. Um, and then, and again, just seeking to understand Jenny's perspective. I wish I had implemented that, like from day one, I feel like I'm J it's, it's almost 14 years of marriage and, and I'm just learning that mm-hmm , which is so sad, but yeah, I feel like on top of that forgiveness, um, yeah, forgiveness is just.

It's a daily conversation. Uh, if it's, if it's not daily, it's almost daily. Oftentimes it's more than once per day. Uh, we're we're speaking with the language of, I screwed up in this way. I did this, like, I really did this. I chose to do wrong against you and will you please forgive me? Hmm. Um, and our kids do it and it's more than like, I don't even want to hear, I'm sorry.

Most of the time for my kids, I just want to. Will you forgive me and yeah, I, I mean, I'm sorry. It helps sometimes, but , but it's getting kind of right. Getting reconciled, um, has always been part of our relationship mm-hmm and I feel like, because we've had that, we that's why we're in the place we are today.

Yeah. We, we definitely, I there's the. I don't even know. Is it from the Bible that, do you not let the sun go down while you're angry? Or is that just something somebody told me that I was, I think it's it's, it's from it's from the Bible. I mean, I think that has always been like, we don't go to bed angry.

We really don't or if we do, I mean, I mean, we've been in bed and we've been angry, but we've like always been like. We don't go to sleeping. Yeah. We're at least like it's not resolved. Yeah. Like, or somewhat resolved. Like, will you please forgive me? I I'm sorry. Or, or it's like, we're in enough of a good place.

like, maybe it's not all over. Yeah. But like, we're not, you know, just, yeah. We're not feeling totally separated or something. I think that's a big thing. And the, the seeking to understand, I, I think that's so important. You have to. being married is just giving so much grace and asking for so much grace. And then when I think about something that I kind of wish I'd heard before we got married, I think we I've, we've found, especially since having kids, our, our oldest is about to be eight.

You really have to fight for time together and make that just like such a. Huge priority. Yeah. Like don't let that slip away. Cause in the early years of being married, it won't probably be as hard to be like, oh, we've got a date night or we do all this stuff together. But as it gets, as it gets, um, as you are married for longer and longer, there's a tendency to just well with kids or with life or whatever.

Well, okay. with kids, especially in our life. It's just so easy to focus on everything else and feel like roommates instead of being married. And I think that could probably happen even without kids just getting comfortable and not prioritizing like really growing the relationship. I think you can get a little complacent maybe.

Absolutely. And complacency just is the worst. It, yeah. Never leads to something good ever. I've I've never seen it lead to something good, but that, that advice is fantastic. And I heard a quote recently when it comes to like listening and understanding. So like you were talking about, and Jenny, like you touched on as well, listening is not waiting your turn to speak.

It's really? Yeah. Just it's really just listening to reflect, not to refute and yes, that's been something that I am still trying to learn. to be honest with you guys. Yeah. It's, it's hard. It's really hard. Cuz I think, you know, especially when you're talking about something that's difficult. It can be so easy to just get defensive and so easy to just throw up walls and, uh, want like you, like you guys said wanna be right.

Instead of wanting to kind of resolve it as a team and reach whatever, you know, solution that you're trying to, to get to. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, we happen to be right by our bookshelf. So I'm gonna read a quote from the world, according to Mr. Rogers. Nice. Uh, two quotes actually listening is a very active awareness of the coming together of at least two lives.

Listening. As far as I'm concerned is certainly a prerequisite. A prerequisite prerequisite. prerequisite. It's hard to say that word today. It is of, of love. One of the most essential ways of saying I love you is being a receptive listener. And then here's, uh, here's a kind of a paraphrase of that. Um, another quote by him by Fred Rogers listening is where love begins.

Listening to ourselves. Then to our neighbors. Wow. Profound. Mm-hmm I know, dude, Mr. Rogers, Mr. Rogers, see, do we even need to add anything to that? trusty. Let's just let's end the end, the podcast now and, uh, try to live that out. Yeah. Yeah. And for anyone who accused keeping track and maybe judging all of us, um, that was, uh, Ephesians 4 26 is where it says not to let the sun go down on your anger.

So just in case anyone's judging I'm like, was that in there? I think it's , it's good in there. Nice work Googling that maybe . Yeah. Yeah. I didn't have that memorized just in case anyone's judging me. Okay. Um, but no such good advice. And I, I was curious also, uh, what advice would you give to a young person who comes from a broken family?

Who's maybe afraid of love. They're afraid of intimacy. They're afraid of. Marriage cuz they just don't want it to end the way that they saw their parents' marriage and they, they may even doubt that love could last in the first place. So what advice would you give to them specifically? You wanna go, man?

Uh, I know what I wanna say. You, you do what you, since you really know right now, what I'd like to say to you or to whomever, uh, happens to be in that situation and have that background is. There are so many false definitions of love out there. And I feel like the first thing that I need to do is look at what true love is.

And for that, I go. To the scriptures. Uh, and this is an older, maybe an old school language type of version, not as old as, as some, but it still says it. Well, it says, uh, love is patient. Um, and that word patient means long suffering. It means that you are okay with being in pain for a long time. So that's how that is the first.

Adjective use of love that it is patient or long suffering. The second is that love is kind, and I feel like we could stop there, uh, kind of like we did with Mr. Rogers quotes. Like if, if you see a love and if you experience a love that suffers for a long time, so experiences a lot of pain and still gets through it and still continues to love.

And if that love is kind. So not harsh. I'll continue. When you see a love that does not envy or boast, like when you see a love that, um, I think we all struggle with envy to some extent. Definitely. Um, it's like when we compare ourselves, when we. When I compare my body with someone or my voice or my talents or my money or my possessions, like any, when I do that, it makes me a bitter person and it makes me a, uh, unhappy person.

So love doesn't envy. It doesn't, it doesn't boast. It's not prideful or arrogant. Like it's not conceited. It doesn't have this ego where it's like self consumed. Rather love is looking outward. Like it is, it is looking towards the good of others. And, and it there's this whole definition here. I, I don't even think I'm gonna go through the whole thing, but this, the definition is found in first Corinthians 13, four through kind of four through 13.

And it actually starts a little bit earlier in like context wise. It, it starts or even earlier than that, but, but, but again, patience and kindness. If love can just embody those two adjectives again, man, that is powerful. Love that. And that's love that is not disappointing. Mm-hmm um, and, and it's love that will not be, um, dissatisfying either.

It will actually be a love. Brings a fullness, um, a full kind of life. I think that we all. Long for, for life that is full. And that can last, I want my Marvel movies to last forever, but they only last two or three hours. Like I, you know, I want my, I want concerts to last forever. Yeah. I want, uh, to surf a wave that lasts forever.

I want meals to last forever. Like I love eating oh, me too. Like a good steak or something. It's yes, but I get full and I can't eat more and I get tired and I can't surf more and I have to get sleep, so I can't watch anymore Marvel movies. So like, but those longings are there. And, and the thing about love is that it actually satisfies those longings because.

The love this love that is being spoken of in this passage in first Corinthians 13, is this divine love this, uh, in the Greek agape love that. If that is your, your, your starting place, your definition, your template for real love. Then when you see something that is called love, that doesn't look like this.

You can call it out for what it is and you can say, okay, well, well, I haven't been hurt by love. I've been hurt by something that's called love. That is actually not love at all. Sound good. I'll end. I'll end with that, I guess. And I, I was just gonna add that if, and this, it sounds like very oversimplified or something, but if we didn't have the Lord in our lives, we would not be married anymore.

I mean, I just, I can think of too many things where it would just be like, if I hadn't experienced that kind of forgiveness and grace, I might not be willing to extend it. I don't, I could see things that would. Have totally been like, oh, this isn't worth it anymore. You know, this, this is too hard. Well, I, if I hadn't experienced the, the love of the Lord, I would probably wouldn't be alive right now.

I think. Or at least I might be in jail. um, and certainly we wouldn't be near no, but, but I also mean like if we had gotten. And we didn't have, like, if we both got married and we didn't know the Lord, right. I don't think we would be married. I don't think we'd be married anymore either. Yeah. I just, and that sounds like such a cliche, but I, I really do think it's true, but it's because we've experienced that love that I just talked about the forgiveness of God and his kindness to, to us who have.

Done so many wrongs to him over and over and over and been so faithless to him and cheated on him so many times, uh, with like fill in the blank and he. Is faithful to us, even when we're faithless, he keeps pursuing us and loving us and calling us to himself. And he does it in a kind way. He doesn't do it in a like yeah.

In like a hard kind of mean way. And I think because we've experienced that. It's it's way easier for us. Yeah, not that it's our natural, it's not our, like our default, our default is like, my default is to, to be mean to, to our kids and to be like, why are you doing this again? And blah, blah, blah. But when I think of how God has treated me, it, it softens me up a lot.

And it, um, it helps me to extend that forgiveness and that grace that, uh, Jenny was talking about. Beautiful. Yeah. And thanks for your vulnerability. I know it's most people aren't this open, but it's beautiful. And we can learn a lot from that. I think. And really what I hear you saying is that God's the perfect lover.

He's the perfect spouse. And so we need to model ourselves after him. Because he, he just never gives that. He keeps coming after us, even when we really don't deserve it. We, we don't deserve it. Yeah. He knows we need him and he keeps coming after us again and again and again. And I love what you said about really redefining.

What love is for you. Like you said, there's so many false ideas, especially in your industry, you know, for sure. I'm sure you guys see this a lot. Just all these false ideas of love and music and mm-hmm for me, it was, yeah. It's. Uh, refreshing to listen to you guys because you're actually hitting on the truth of, of what love is and that that's what the research shows.

It shows that if you want a good marriage, you have to purify your idea of love. You need a realistic concept of love. And if you could have that, then you can have a good marriage. But if you're, you know, expecting it to be a fairytale or to look like the notebook, it's not going to, you're gonna be disappointed and you're gonna wanna give up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For. I, uh, also love what you said about love satisfying. I think there's a lot of people in our world and I've struggled with this personally, who walk around believing that my heart will never be satisfied. My heart will never be satisfied. And just hearing that authentic love can do that, especially God's love, but even, even within a marriage or between friends, all the different types of love, it can be satisfying.

Was there anything you wanted to add on that? About how like life giving love can be? Because I think a lot of people, they just see the destruction, they just see the dysfunction and they think. Yeah, this isn't worth it. Mm. Yeah, the word that just popped up in my mind was vulnerability in, in marriage and friendships in our relationship with our kids in even just in like business relationships and acquaintances.

And certainly with our, in our relationship with God, through Jesus, uh, if we are not vulnerable, then there's not a real relationship. I longed for my sister for years, I longed for her to, to just speak. What's true about like what she was going through when we would go out to coffee. And when we would just hang out, I, I was.

But I felt like the last time I had a real relationship with her and she, I mean, it was maybe middle school and then she just passed away last year because she was, she had an eating disorder and, and it was like, sort of like, I was lamenting that relationship for years and years and years. And then finally it was like, it was cut off and, and so it, so it's in a really like, even so love even between siblings.

I think if there's not vulnerability, vulnerability, and then going back to listening that, that there can't be that fullness. That you're want that, that I'm wanting. I think of my best friends. I think like my best friend from college, uh, Joey Gordon, and I think the reason why we're best friends is because I was very vulnerable with him about the deepest and darkest things in my life.

And he was vulnerable with me similarly, and we were able to walk with each other through those things. Mm-hmm . And I think, and that's why that relationship. I could, I could go months without talking to Joey, but we can pick up where we left off because we formed that bond of vulnerability early on. And we chose to, instead of past judgment on each other or say like, You're, you know, I don't, I don't really wanna hang out with you anymore if you've you've done that sort of thing.

We, we decided that, that there's grace there again, grace and forgiveness and, and love can cover that stuff. Like true love can cover over a multitude of. Those violations of, of goodness and, and purpose that, that we've done, that we, all of us have done. And, and it's sad. It's very satisfying. Love that. So good.

I'm so sorry about your sister. It's so hard. And, uh, I, yeah, I know the experience of like losing someone close to you and I think the. You know, going back and thinking, I wish we had this, I wish we had that. And the vulnerability being at the core of it makes so much sense. It, I agree. Like vulnerability has always made my relationships better and made me happier.

And I know Brene brown talks about vulnerability a ton, and she says, vulnerability is the antidote to shame. Hmm. Yeah. And so if, if you feel like, you know, you're just so broken and. Um, you know, that people would despise you. If you just open up to someone who is good, who will you can trust and who will listen to you without judging me?

Just like you said so well, tother, um, that is so freeing it's so freeing, especially after going through life, maybe hiding, um, your vices or hiding things that you're struggling with from your past or whatever it is. Mm-hmm, , it just, it is life giving. It is satisfying, even that in and of. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

I wanna find this quote. Um, but we should keep talking while I have searched for it. yeah, no, totally fine. Yeah. I, I had a question for you guys about just coping with pain in life. So it's obvious, right? It's human nature that we cope with the pain and the problems in our lives and unhealthy ways. That seems to be the default.

And for me, uh, one healthy way of coping though on the flip side has been listening to music. And I, you know, I, I've played a little bit of music, nowhere near the musician level, but that's been helpful too. Now I can't say I totally understand why it's so helpful, but I'm just curious if you guys had any thoughts on that.

Why do you think that music helps us deal with the messiness of life and the pain and the problems that kind of inevitably come our way? I think a lot of it has to do with just knowing that you're not alone and that other people have experienced something. Very similar. That your story while it is unique to you, it's not, it's not something that's so new or out there, like something, no one could ever understand.

There's this song by drew Holcomb called here we go. And there's a line that says music. It makes you feel good. Makes you feel understood. Like you're not alone, not a rolling stone, not the only one on the road. And I think that really is it for me. It's. Wow. Someone else totally gets this and, and they're okay.

you know? Yeah. Um, yeah, it's like a way to be alone, but not be alone. So that I, yeah, for me, music has always been very healing and helpful, and it also helps me experience my emotions when, you know, you wanna dive into that place, but you like just need a little help maybe, you know? Yeah. And suddenly you're crying in the bathtub like, oh, this feels so good.

Yeah. Jenny, you made me think of, you made me think of, um, just how helpful it is. Like there's har a lot of Harvard research on this, like Dr. Susan, David. Wrote an awesome book called emotional agility. And in it, she talks about how important it is to put your emotions into words. And it's actually like a disability when people can't recognize and express their emotions, which leads to frustrations and, and anger in a lot of cases.

So it's like so healthy and good for you to just express, put your feelings into words. And it seems like music, like you said, it does exactly that. So it makes sense why it's a hopeful. Yeah. Yeah. Tell her anything to add to that. Yeah. I don't have anything to add. I do want to kind of paraphrase what I was saying, what I wanted to find that quote that I wanted to find it basically.

So going back to the, the point of vulnerability, the quote was, was way better than I think this is gonna be, but it was basically like the church is comprised of murderers. Rapists pedophiles. People who have done the worst of the worst stuff, and yet they have tasted the love of God and they have received the forgiveness of God by the blood of Christ because of, of Jesus' blood.

And now they are the people in the earth who are going out and sharing. This is who I was. I still struggle with this by the way, but this is who he is, and this is what he's doing in me. And, and that's life right there. There is, there is so much life in not hiding from these, these terrible things that, uh, that, and I'm not saying all of us are, are murderers and, and rapists and pedophiles.

But I'm saying that at a heart, when it comes down to the heart, all of us are no better than any of the worst people we think of, uh, in the world. We're, we're right there with them. Um, Jesus said, if you've gotten angry with somebody and said, you fool, you've, you've committed murder in your heart. He said, if you've lost it after a woman, you've committed adultery.

So we're right there with them and, and we're no better. And so I think that that, that's what the church needs to be is, is a bunch. Not self righteous people, but people who are, are deeply in touch with how screwed up they really are and how beautiful God's love really is that he forgives them through Jesus.

Yeah, that just to, just to add that little part about vulnerability, so good. So, so beautiful. And I couldn't agree more just like as a church we need to yeah. Get better at being real. Like I grew up in a more traditional church and. It was just, it was very much so about, like, I don't know your exterior, which, you know, there's a point to that.

Sure. But yeah, it's just, we, we have to get to the heart and, and when we don't, it's just so damaging because we're just walking around, going through the motions and nothing's actually transforming, which is what you're getting at here. It's like real transformation can happen. Like if you feel broken, If you're addicted to something, if you're doing all these bad things in your life, like God can come into that and he can transform it.

He's the only one who can do that. He can take some really bad, broken, messy, ugly, and make it into something good. Beautiful. It's yes. Incredible. Yeah. And, and to that point, like, My, my whole faith was, was based, was primarily based on desire, uh, when I was 15 and my, one of my best friends died and I was forced to, to look into death and to look into my life and realize that my life had no purpose.

I was trying to fit in and get with girls. And really objectify girls back then was kind of. The tendency of, of the, my high school guy, culture and abuse substances and treat people unfairly. And so this is what, what I was, was in. And I, I knew that there wasn't life there, but it wasn't until my buddy died.

And I really had to start thinking about man, what, what if I die tomorrow? Like, would my. Be worth anything. And the answer was no, the like it, and it that's really what hit me. And then Jesus comes and he says, I have come, uh, that they may have life and have it in abundance. And that is for there's something about that verse that really got me.

And it still, it still gets me like I desire life in abundance. I don't want to live sort of aimlessly and. and come to the end of my life and be like, well, that, that was a waste, you know? And, and so the Lord kind of brought me to himself through that desire and still brings me to himself through that desire.

And then I have to, I have to back up from that and I have to, to ask myself, okay, why do I actually believe this? mm-hmm, like, I, something about this seems true, but is there, is there more than just desire for. For for, is there good reason to believe? And, and I think that's where apologetics comes in.

That's where, uh, a lot of, a lot of study can come in. It just, but, but going back to desire, man, I, I think that we, all of us desire, love, like true love. I think we all desire to be known and to know God. Um, I think we all desire. Like I mentioned earlier things to last forever. Um, good things to last forever.

We don't want bad things to last forever. And so, so like, what is the root of that? If, if you don't know, if you're listening to this, you don't know Jesus. I would dive deep into that. What is the root? And I, I think the root is that God created us for himself, that we have this. This whole, I think Augustine put it like we have this emptiness, this space in our hearts that that cannot be filled.

We try to fill it with so much stuff, but it cannot be filled with anything except God himself. So we were made to know God and to be known by God, going back to vulnerability, to be totally exposed and naked before him. And, and for God to say, I accept. I love you because of what my son Jesus did when he died on the cross.

I, I accept you. And we just have to trust that we just have to trust in that Jesus's death was for us and his resurrection meant that he, he wasn't confined to the grave. And I need that every day. I'm I'm speaking this maybe more for, for myself, cause I need to be reminded. Uh, every day. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's great.

You appreciate yourself and we all get to listen. It's awesome. no, I, I do that a lot on this show. I'm like, yeah, I really need to, to hear this, like probably should follow some of this advice for no, it's it's so true. And one of the things that's really brought me to tears at different points in my life.

It's just like, After my parents separated, just shattered my world and I got into pornography and all sorts of just unhealthy things and sexual sins and other stuff. And, uh, I just felt so empty. And I knew even as a boy, like I was 11, 12 years old at the time, I knew that I wanted to be happy and this stuff wasn't making me happy.

And then I met these friends who, who were Christians. And I was like, wait a. These people are actually happy. Like they have what I want, like, wow, what . So, so then I started to live what egg did and life changed for, for the better. It was amazing. And so thinking back though, um, at different points in my life and like, if I would've kept on that path of doing what I was doing, like my God, like where would I have been?

And it just made me realize that we all have such a capacity for. And it's kind of, it's kind of a dark and scary thing to think about, isn't it it's like we all can become Hitler. We all can become, you know, whoever we do. And so it's, it's so like, like you're saying, if you would've continued on that path, if I would've continued on that path.

Oh my gosh. Where, where would we have been? It's scary. Terrifying to think. And I think it's good for anyone who's tempted to be like prideful or self righteous, like, think about that in your. Yeah. Yeah. And unfortunately it does take a lot of guys going to jail, uh, and being broken down by, by that system to get to that place where they're like, wow, this, this is like, I really can make those decisions.

I really am not any better than Hitler. And that's. That's a hard thing. Uh, I think for our culture to accept, but I've seen the evil in my heart and, uh, I was addicted to porn from an early age. And if I had not been by God delivered from that speaking of porn, I like, I, I don't know, man. I, I might be, I might not be alive.

I , I don't know where I'd be. Uh, I might be in jail, like I said before. And I think the key to that again, is desire because I got to a place where I was so tired and so dissatisfied, um, with porn that, that I, I wanted something real and something of substance and God be began to, uh, to show me that that was himself, but also in showing me that he gave me this hatred of porn, like.

Porn is objective. It's making an object of a human being. It is making, uh, a product of a person and it's, it's totally. It's like going to the grocery store and, and getting food, getting food that is terrible for me and buying it over and over and over again, it's killing me. It's killing part of my, like my emotional health and my soul and what my body certainly.

And, but, but I keep, I kept doing it because it felt like that was the only place that I knew I could get a rush. Um, and it, I, I think I relate to. Drug addicts in that. Um, but God gave me a hatred of it and I feel like that's one of the only ways that, that, or one of the only things that really keeps me from it.

It's not that I'm not tempted by it today, but I know I know what it did to me. And I hate it now so much that it, uh, it's lost. Its it's lost so much of its appeal. Absolutely. It's it's it's shine. It's just not shiny anymore. Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's amazing how you can, yeah. Become so different and transform and.

The best way I've heard it put is that porn distorts your ability to love. Cuz like you said, it just teaches you to use another person. And if you want those beautiful things in life, you need to learn to love and it's not easy and yeah, there's so much we can say there, I wanna keep moving. And uh, my wife and I attended one of your virtual conferences or conferences, virtual concerts if you ever wanna do a conference then sweet.

You can as well. But uh, it was, it was amazing. And one of the things that hit me is that music is so life-giving. So it's kind of the other side of the coin that I, the question I asked this is just so life giving. And, uh, my advice to, to my audience here was that if your life feels dull, if it feels bland, add art into it, especially music, it can just bring so much beauty into the grayness of life.

Have you, how have you seen that play in your own life and in the lives of your fans? Man? I think for me, one of the most life giving things is going to a concert. Mm it's just the I'm always, I almost always leave inspired by the performer. Like I wanna write songs after I listen to this. Person's amazing songs and I feel known.

usually like when we go to a show, we have this experience together, or you might go with friends or something and you have this shared experience. I remember going, we saw Mumford and sons back when, like way before they were so huge that you couldn't get tickets. Like it was 2009 or something. Wow. And we saw them at this awesome venue in Nashville.

It's like 1500 people maybe. and I just remember, it felt like everyone, there was a family, like there were certain points of the night where, you know, everyone's cheering over a line and I'm crying and you know, we're standing together. And I just remember thinking, I feel like I'm part of something greater than myself, which is beautiful.

And I'm getting like how, what a privilege to experience something. So. So beautiful. I mean, amazing. Gorgeous. What a privilege and then to be with you. I, I think, yeah, those, those experiences always. Add to the add to the beauty, I guess. And it's, it's almost beyond words, isn't it? Jenny? It's like, mm-hmm, , it's hard to explain.

It's hard to put it into words. And so you actually experience it. Yeah. And me, I feel like music just does that and like Tyler's, um, dad is a, is a choir or was a choir director at like a high school, middle school for years, like 30 years or something. And then when everything went virtual, He's supposed to do choir virtually, right?

Well, that just doesn't work because it's, you're part of like anything that you do, like a sport or being in a choir, like part of what makes it so magical is that you're with another person, like singing in a choir is about singing together and creating something. And you can't experience that on your.

What do you have to say? Yeah. Music is inspirational. Live, live music, especially for me. I think I, I have a variety of, of sources that I can list, like books, sermons, conversations I've had with family with strangers friends, but there's something about live music, even like from a musical perspective. Wow.

I didn't know that core progression could kind of tug at my heart the way that that did like seeing something done really well and lyric like lyrics tied together in a way that I I've never thought. Yeah. It's it's just to revisit what Jenny already said. It's it's very inspir. Couldn't agree more with you guys.

Uh, this next one's kind of hard to explain, but, uh, people who come from broken homes, young people who come from broken families tend to value, uh, security, feeling safe more than maybe most people. And the, the basic reason for that, that we've learned is that our families felt so unsafe so insecure that we just wanna feel safe almost at any cost.

Now, the problem with that is that we might not take good. Risks, especially when it comes to relationships, careers, whatever. Now you guys, you've taken a lot of risks to get where you are today. Uh, it's not easy it's for anyone listening to us. No, it's not easy to become successful artists. And so I'm just curious, what has that journey been like for you guys?

And what advice would you give to someone who's maybe terrified of taking a risk that could lead to something good, but they're just, they would rather play it safe. Hmm. I kind of feel like. I don't know, some of it hasn't felt so risky. like, yeah, like to us, it hasn't felt as risky as maybe it, it seemed.

And I, I think part of that was like when we started making music and when we decided. We're gonna jump into this and make this our full-time gig. And if it doesn't work out, that's okay, but we're gonna give it a shot. We were young. We didn't have a lot of responsibilities and, um, we didn't have like career type jobs.

Like I was working at a gift shop entirely was working at Starbucks. So it didn't feel like we were giving something up. However, I also think that if we hadn't done. If we hadn't taken the risk, I think we would've always kind of wondered if like what it would've been like to give it a shot. Mm-hmm I, I feel like I can't speak to maybe collectively we can't speak to this idea of risk in terms of career.

Because again, I was working at Starbucks. Jenny was working at a gift store. I think our monthly expenses. We're like, if we could make more than $1,500 a month, we could cover everything. And so, so we, we approached touring like, all right, we just have to make 1500 bucks in one month and then we'll be good.

And so I think if we had to give up like a, a more stable job, uh, or, or, or maybe even just a job that we. We really loved. Cause not, I don't think we loved Starbucks and we like, I enjoyed Starbucks, but I didn't like, feel like it was my, my calling. Yeah. I was just thinking though, however, like you had a sales job lined up for after college that we said no to, because the thought was, if I take this full time job, we won't have time for music.

Absolutely. And so it was our way of saying, without saying. You know, music is, is this important to us? So yeah, someone who's, who would be afraid of taking the risk. I mean, that makes so much sense to me, the, the fear there, um, the trepidation, but yeah, I really think if we hadn't done it, we would wonder, and certainly things, you know, things being.

Not as stable for us or feeling a little crazier, trying like, you know, we have four kids now and music is really strange to do with that many kids, like at the level that we do it, which isn't. You say successful, but like success is so relative. It is relative. You're successful to me. Okay. For the difference again, we pay the bills.

Yes, yes we can. And that's about it, you know, like that's where we're at. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, yeah, we have more than enough, but I don't know. I think Tyler's like when Tyler mentioned that he's a seven he's, like, which is like the risk taker type of personality. Okay. Yep. He's just always been. Yeah, let's just do it.

Let's let's go for. And I was more of the, I don't know, this might not be a good idea. I mean, that's how pretty much all it's our whole life, all of our bases came that way. We're like, what do you think of one more? Sure. , we're kind of impulsive people. Like what do you think about moving like next month?

Sure. That's fine. Yeah. Whatever. What should we buy this sprinter van? Yeah, actually I already bought it.

Yeah. Tyler did buy a sprinter van without telling me, yeah. Oh, I know. Remember walking out this old, like really dumpy van and I'm looking at it and I was just. I can't believe you bought this. Yeah. I can't believe you bought this, but it, it was fine. Couldn't really undo it at that point. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I think for me, it's just like having Tyler kind of driving the, the bus I'm I feel like I'm along for the ride.

And, um, I think I've just also seen that things, they always work out one way or another. I don't know if that's there was any sort of advice in there, you know, I, I think there's, I think there's more in there than you realize one don't buy a van without telling your wife one. Yes, definitely. That, and then also you guys were just, you were willing to fail and that's, I think what terrifies a lot of people it's like, you knew that one possibility to going down this road was that you wouldn't make it.

Yeah. And, and you were okay with that. And that's huge. Like even just accepting that fact, I think is so big. Another thing you said is. What if we don't do it, that's what a lot of people don't consider. They only think about, well, what if I do it? And I lose everything well, what if you don't and you live a life of regret and you go to your grave with the song still inside of you, like yeah.

Throw said. It is terrifying. It is yeah. To, to consider that. And so I think that can be motivating as well. And then another thing you said is just like taking the little steps. That's another lesson in what you, you just explained is like take the little steps in the right direction. You don't need to maybe take that huge leap right.

At first. I mean, sometimes in life you have to take those leaps, but I think if you take those steps, you're gonna be mitigating risk and avoiding maybe some potential huge failure, um, by just doing little bits at a. Yeah, that was awesome that you just said that was all from you guys. Perfect. Very well.

Uh, great summary. You could have just said that cliffs notes version. Love that. No, that, that's what I just learned from you guys. So thank you. Um, in, in closing out, how can people listen to your music, buy your music 10 year concerts? How can they do all that? Yeah, I mean, we're on all of the streaming things like Spotify.

Apple music and all of that stuff, right? Yeah. And then if you really wanna support us, uh, we we're on this thing called Patreon and, uh, for a dollar or, or whatever you wanna give us per month, um, we give you exclusive songs, new songs every month and, uh, exclusive content. Behind the scenes stuff. Um, so that if you, yeah, if you really wanna support us in like a very tangible way, that's, that's a good way to do it, but you could just go on Spotify and create a playlist, too.

Join our mailing list. You can get a free record, a free exclusive record. If you go to Jenny and tyler.com/free we're on Instagram and Facebook. We're not great with the social media. I think we're just like, Too old to keep up with all of the new things that people do. I'm like, what is that? We, we prioritize Instagram and, and Facebook and, and then Twitter's kind of the third one, but Snapchat.

And I'm like, I don't know what that is. I dunno how to use this. Yeah. But, and then we are starting to book. We're hoping to get back into playing some shows and then we just have online stuff that we do too about once a month. So, yeah. Yeah. And that's just, uh, like the tickets to, if you want to come to this show in Maine, in September it's and these online shows, they're just pay what you can.

So again, just like. A dollar or more. We don't want there to be a hindrance from money. We, if you wanna come, we want there to be some kind of transaction so that you care about it a little bit. Uh, cuz we found that free events, people just don't care very much about, but when people give even just a dollar or $5, they seem to care about it.

And, and so that's, that's why we do the pay. What you can thing. Love it. And your website is Jenny and Tyler dot. Yes. Awesome. And you guys, you can find everything that they just mentioned there, and we'll make sure to link in the show notes to, uh, their music, to their Patreon account. If you wanna support them even a little bit goes a long way, guys.

Thank you so much for your music. It's so inspiring. It's so beautiful. Thank you for the example that you've, um, given in, in your marriage. It's more inspiring than maybe you'll ever know. So I really appreciate everything you've done. And for, for being here and spending time with me today. Thank you so much.

This was awesome. Such a pleasure, Joey. Thank you, man.

You can listen to Jenny and Tyler's music, wherever you listen to music or on YouTube even. And if you wanna support them, like they mentioned, you can do that on Patreon for even a dollar or a few dollars a month. And you can just go to patreon.com/jenny. And Tyler patreon.com/jenny and Tyler. And I know it goes a long way for artists.

Who've had so many concerts canceled because of COVID. So if you can help them out, go ahead and do that. And I especially recommend listening to their song. As long as our hearts are beating. As long as our hearts are beating, it's such a beautiful song about love and about marriage. And I won't sing it for you, but here are some of the lyrics.

Tyler sings this part, he says my bride, my bride, I can hardly hold myself. Together this day, this night, I see you as you are, and I never wanna leave. So beautiful again, that that song is as long as our hearts are beating, definitely recommend listening to that. And all those links are in the show notes.

A question for you guys to kind of wrestle with, think about who in your life has helped to convince you that love and marriage can last. Maybe, no one, maybe you haven't had anyone do that, but maybe you have, my advice is either find someone who has a beautiful marriage that you wanna emulate. You wanna repeat, or if you know someone like that build a better relationship with them.

It's so helpful in overcoming your fears about love and marriage to see a real. Living example of how good love and marriage can be. And this has been so helpful for me. So many people that we've worked with at restored have said the same, uh, in the future, we wanna even come out with some sort of a program to help you find a couple like that.

If you don't know them more on that in the future, but this is so helpful. So go ahead, find that couple or reengage with a couple that you know, who just has a really beautiful marriage that inspires you and can teach you how to build love. That lasts again, stay tuned for more info on how to get our new book for special offers, you can join our email list@restoredministry.com.

Again, restored ministry.com. Ministry is just singular. You can follow us on social, especially on Instagram at restored help. Again at restored help is our handle and just keep listening to this podcast. We'll be. Giving you more info on how you can get the book. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 51.

Thank you so much for listening. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce separation, share this podcast with them. We're really confident that it can help them too. Always. Remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#050: Why Didn’t You Choose Me? | Holli Lepley

For 40 years, Holli searched for help to heal from the trauma of her parents’ divorce, including 30 years of counseling. But nothing worked. She had all but lost hope when she found Restored. She claims this podcast has been more healing than 30 years of counseling.

Having struggled with depression, anxiety, and suicidal thoughts, she also shared how Restored has “literally saved my life.” If you’ve wondered how Restored can help you or someone you love or lead, this episode is for you. In it, we discuss:

• How her parents’ divorce came out of the blue, which research suggests may be most damaging

• How her dad’s quick remarriage hurt her as much or almost more than the divorce itself

• The sense of loss she felt when she stopped seeing her siblings due to the divorce

Plus, two huge announcements at the start of the show!

Has Restored helped you? Let us know how here.

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Episode 8: The Hardest Part of My Life | Miranda Rodriguez

• Dear Divorce

• Contact Holli

  • dznylandfan@gmail.com

  • Instagram

  • Facebook

• Research

  • Low conflict divorces may be more damaging

  • 1/3 high conflict divorces, 2/3 low conflict divorces

  • Loneliness and Life Satisfaction in Adolescents with Divorced and Non-Divorced Parents

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

My guest today, struggled for so long to find anyone even among so-called experts who could simply understand how devastating it was for her to experience her parents' divorce and the breakdown of her family. As a 10 year old girl, she did search for help, but she struggled to find it for over 40 years.

And after almost 30 years of counseling, 30 years, she had all but lost hope. When she found restored, she told me that restored in this podcast specifically have been more effective in helping her than 30 years of counseling. And she said, she's just never found anyone saying what we're saying, what our guests have said and what our content has said.

And she really wishes that she would've had this 40 years ago when she was a 10 year old girl and having struggled in her life with suicidal thoughts. She shares how this podcast has literally saved her. So amazing. So humbling, Holly. I know you're listening right now. We're just so glad to be a part of your story for this opportunity to serve you and be a help tact as a guide along your journey.

And you were right. All along. What you went through was traumatic. What you went through was devastating. You deserve your pain to be validated. You deserve for someone to recognize the hurt you've endured so you can heal and finally move past all of this. And if you listening right now, if you're like Holly, if you feel like nothing has worked help you heal from the trauma you've experienced in your family, because of your parents' divorce separation, you're in the right place.

Stick with us. We're here to help you. And if you're someone who's asked the question, maybe you've heard about resort, or maybe you're finding us for the first time. If you've you ask the question is restored actually helping people. And if so, how it's a fair question. Keep listening. You're gonna find out.

It's a very fair question. And I know we have a fair share of skeptics. People who think like, eh, maybe they're not doing such good work. We even have some haters. For example, one woman emailed me. I kid you not, this is not a joke. One woman emailed me. And she said that. She said, please, in no way, go to sleep at night thinking you have helped anyone and are doing a service when it comes down to it.

Again, not a joke. That's a direct quote. And Holly, in this episode shares how effective this podcast and this ministry has been to help her. And it can help you too, as someone who comes from a broken family. And I don't say all this to brag, I just say this to show you that. We can help you and we want to help you.

And by listening what you're gonna get out of this episode, we talk about how her parents' divorce came totally outta the blue, which research actually suggests maybe the most damaging type of divorce. We also speak about the pain. She felt watching her dad show up at the house to go through her mom's things.

While her mom was gone. We hit on how her dad's quick remarriage following the divorce, hurt her as much. And maybe even more than the divorce itself, she touches on the sense of loss. She felt too, when she stopped seeing her siblings due to the divorce. In other words, not only did she lose her dad in, in a way, both of her parents, uh, she also lost her siblings too.

And she shares kind of an interesting experience where she went to this divorce support group, thinking it would be for her. But it wasn't for children of divorce. It was just for, uh, married couples or married people, I should say, who wanted to get a divorce. And so she quickly realized when she was at this meeting, that it wasn't for her.

And there was just no mention of the kids at all. Um, but she did stick it out and she tells that story. And then we also talk about other struggles that she's dealt with. Like thinking that her husband who's been so good to her, will eventually leave her and dealing with the silence from her family, from her parents, especially for the past 40 years.

No one talked about this very real and painful problem that she's dealt with that has been in the family. And finally, just her wrestling with the question. Why wasn't I worth it for you guys? To work it out. Some just cuts straight to the heart. And also in addition to all that, we've two big announcements from us at restored.

We'll get into those right away. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host joy. Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 52 big announcements. Like I said, first off my wife and I have welcomed our daughter into the world.

Her name is Lucy. She's the best. She's beautiful. Uh, her daddy's heart already belongs to her. We are obsessed. And if you wanna see some photos of her, just follow us on Instagram at restored help. Again, that's at restored help and you can see some pictures of Lucy on. I. Next we've written. Our first publication will be coming out in September of this year.

It's a practical guide to really help you successfully navigate the pain and the problems from your parents' divorce or separation. And it's in a question and answer format. It's a short format, so it's a quick read, but it really gives you practical guidance on different questions and different situations, different challenges that people like us face such as.

Everyone acts like my parents' divorce. Isn't a big deal. Is it wrong for me to feel hurt by it? What can I do to cure my loneliness? How can I better deal with my anxiety? What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life events? How do I overcome my fear of love, relationships and intimacy? I, I feel broken.

Like something is wrong with me. How can I heal and feel whole again? And why does God let bad things happen? Like my parents divorce, there's over 30 questions in this booklet for you again, to offer really practical guidance so that you can successfully navigate these really challenging things that really no one offers us any guidance on.

And so what we're trying to do is really create what we wish we would've had years ago and we've spent months doing it. We're so excited to release this to, to give this to you guys, to offer. To you. And when I say booklet, what I mean again is a, a quick read. It's not a brochure, not a pamphlet, but it's really a quick read.

It'll be gosh, 150 pages, uh, or more. And that will come up in, in September. Like I said, I'm just teasing it right now, but we'll have more info to come. We'll have info on our website. And if you wanna learn more about the booklet and about some of the special pre-order offers that we'll be, uh, offering before the launch of the book, just subscribe to our email list, go to restored ministry.com again, restored ministry.com.

Ministry is just. Singular and just scroll to the bottom of the page. You'll see a form. You can put your name in, put your email, answer a quick question, and then you'll be on our email list. And whenever the book goes live, you'll hear about it. And we'll give you some special offers, uh, through that email list as well.

Uh, you can sign up there on our homepage on the website, or if you wanna sign up at, uh, the show notes page ever, sword ministry.com/fifty, the form's on there too. We wanna make it easy for you guys to sign up for email list so you can get those special offers again. So excited to share this with you.

We've been working hard on this. We want it to be topnotch for you all, and I'm excited to hear your feedback. So, so stay tuned in the next podcast episode, we'll be talking more about it. We're gonna give you a sneak peek of some of the content, and I give you an opportunity to get some of it for free as well.

And it'll be very reasonably priced. We wanna get it out to as many people as we can, especially young people, teenagers, and young adults who really need this guidance. Honestly, this is what I wish. I would've had as a young person, just kind of a, a manual playbook on how to deal with those unique challenges that people like us face.

So keep an eye out for that. My guest today is Holly lly. She has been a child of divorce for 40 years. And then as the youngest of five children, she was only 10 years old when her parents divorced. The divorce really defined her life. Not only as a child, but as a grown woman too, which you'll hear her talk about in the interview and following the divorce.

She suffered from depression and anxiety for 40 years. And she spent countless years in counseling trying to overcome being a, a child of divorce going through this trauma. And she says that nothing worked until I found ReSTOR. Finally, people who understood how I felt and gave this. A voice at 50 years old, I'm learning.

It's not too late to find peace within the pain. Thanks to ReSTOR. So beautiful and so humbling, honestly. And she, she is married. Holly is married to an incredible patient man. She says, uh, they'll, they'll celebrate 31 years in November this year. So beautiful. They've three, uh, children together and a daughter-in-law and the ages range from 27 to 17.

So pretty young family and Holly, uh, promised herself that her children would never have to say that they were children of divorce. She didn't wanna repeat what she experienced in her family. And she's kept that promise. And she's very proud of that. She recently retired from the airline industry and she currently works for the state of Utah.

She and her husband are planning to move to Florida in a few years when they retire and all of her children will be joining them. Beautiful and amazing. So without waiting any longer, here's my conversation with my friend, Holly,

Holly, welcome to the show. It's great to have you. Oh, thank you, Joey. So much for having me. I've been looking forward to this interview and I, I'm excited to hear your story, so let's go right to it. Take us back in time. Take us to the day when that 10 year old you, uh, learned that your parents were separating and divorcing, um, what happened?

How did you react to it? Yeah, absolutely. This is actually one of the very few days that I have any memory of. Um, I actually don't remember a whole lot of childhood, to be honest with you. I think that's more of a chosen way that I've dealt with a lot of this, but mm-hmm , this is of course one day that I just remember everything about that hour or so of yeah, just my parents sitting myself down with sister.

And just kind of my dad, I remember him saying that he was gonna be moving out and leaving, and I just remember not understanding any of it. Mm-hmm because growing up to that point, I don't remember a, you know, any fighting, any confliction, things like that. I don't remember any of seeing that mm-hmm so I was very much taken aback to what was going on.

Of course, I remember crying and, and trying to understand. but at 10 years old, it was just not something that I could comprehend without any forewarning. Mm-hmm , you know, my, my parents just didn't, I don't know if they chose not to fight in front of us or just to kind of keep us out of it. So it just came out of nowhere.

Mm-hmm really, it was totally something I wasn't. Expecting at all. So, um, I don't know if you want me to go into a little backstory of before getting there sure. To that would be great. That point. I mean, only because it just, it feels almost like I had two lifetimes. Mm. One prior to this and, and then one after the one prior to was, you know, of course my childhood home that I remember, um, I'm the youngest of five children.

I believe two of my siblings were at this point, moved out and married and there was only a couple of us left. And I remember, you know, that time being very happy, very, you know, my mom was home full time, great memories of the neighborhood, the whole thing. And then all of a sudden we just had to leave and we had to move to this different house and never understood why.

Of course, I, I know now why, but. Back then I never knew. And that was really traumatic for me to leave. And then we got settled into this new house and then I learned he would be leaving. Hmm. So it was kind of like getting hit by a brick wall really? yeah. You know, that I never saw coming at all. So it was really hard to deal with that.

And I know you and I have talked that I grew up, um, as a member of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints. Mm-hmm , which most people know, know us as Mormons and learn from a young, young age, families are forever. That's all we ever learned. Families are forever. You know, this is, this is the plan.

And then to be hit by. Well, now dad's moving out and we're getting divorced was just, I, I can't even explain what that felt like, cuz I didn't understand. I don't, you know, how does that happen? Mm-hmm even at this age, I'm not sure. I'm really great at explaining that, but that was really difficult to be at that age.

And just be told. Okay, he's leaving. And then he, he left that night. Oh, wow. And that was it. Hmm. And then the new life started. It was, it was really, um, hard. I mean, I appreciate probably that. I, I didn't see the fighting going on. However, there's bad sides to that as well. You don't see the conflict, you never learn how to resolve it, which I never saw those things.

And in the era that I grew up, which would've been, you know, the seventies, eighties, You, you didn't talk about those things. Our parents didn't talk about those things. So it was something that was never discussed, never sat us all down and said, here's what's going on. Uh, we're not getting along or anything.

And so even post, uh, divorce, it still was never talked about. So I never understood or came from any understanding as to why that all happened. All of a sudden, I just knew that dad was gone and he still lived close by, but. It was like two different worlds that I didn't know how to internalize and we never talked about it.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah, no, that, that's such a heavy thing to carry with you. And not only did the foundation of your family fall apart, but like you said, this belief that you had that families are forever, which is really how it should be. That was shattered too. Cuz mm-hmm this reality in your life seemed to contradict that belief.

And so I'm sure it made you. Everything. And I remember that was certainly the, the case for me. And I remember, uh, yeah, I was 11 years old. So just a year older than you were when my parents separated. And I remember we were with a family friend or maybe a relative. I can't remember that portion of it, but I remember driving by our house and seeing like police cars there.

Um, nothing like. Violent or anything like that had happened. But I think there was a just conflict between my parents, that my mom had chosen to get the police involved. Yeah. And so immediately that was like the first exposure. I think that I had to the fact that something was happening, it came totally out of the blue, just like you said.

And so then I, I mean, a million question marks went up in my head, like what is going on at our house. And then later was when my mom sat us down and broke the news that, uh, dad will no longer be living with us. In fact, he was already gone and they were gonna get divorced. So totally relate to you. And there's research that actually says, you probably know this already, but there's research that says that, uh, those divorces that are low conflict, especially the ones that come out of the blue can actually be more damaging for people like us because, um, it's totally unexpected.

It's totally unexpected. Mm-hmm and things appear to be fine. So then we go through life thinking, well, what isn't gonna fall apart or what. Won't fall apart at a moment's notice. And so we kind of have to watch our back constantly thinking that, well, there's a disaster on every corner. Sure. And, and I think it's so important to know that as a child, I didn't learn to deal with those conflicts and that open communication was just not a thing.

You know, we're just not gonna talk about it. Yeah. And unfortunately, in my situation, the let's not talk about it has lasted for 40 years. Hmm. And it's only been recently that I've started asking my mom some questions about then and reasons as to why, and my adult self can understand. And I think of myself like how, I don't know how I would've explained that to my children, but asking questions.

Now I understand a little bit more each time I, I talk a little bit, but it's been 40 years of no discussion, which, you know, is really hard because I went from having this little family of the seven of us, um, you know, going to church every Sunday, doing everything that we're supposed to be doing to just, it felt like a, you know, like a, like a dam just breaking and that water just opening up and destroying everything.

Even, even my parents, it changed who they were. And I don't know if maybe that's just cuz it, let them maybe hurt their true colors. Come out a little bit. I mean, I certainly don't wanna speak for. and this is in no way judgemental to them, but sure. Um, you know, things changed very quickly in our house.

Although of a sudden my dad would start just showing up at my house and he would be going through my mom's things. Mm-hmm um, when just the kids were there, mm-hmm, like, just when I was there, I, I didn't know how to deal with that. I knew it was wrong. I knew something. This was not right to have him in here going through her things.

But again, we don't talk about it. Thankfully there, there really was only one time at the, it was a pretty pivotal time that he had shown up. And I, I guess he wanted to talk with her. Ended up locking her in the bathroom and she ended up putting her hand through the window, trying to get out. Mm. I was home and I, again, that's another thing that I remember every moment of happening.

Mm-hmm , mm-hmm I remember being outside the door, yelling and crying and, and then her coming out and she had up stitches all up and down her hand, you know, it's very traumatic. Mm-hmm to see that. And as a 10 year old, who, I just don't even know where it came from. These are two people. I, I don't know all of a sudden these aren't the same two people who've been raising me for the past 10 years.

So it was very, very confusing. Yeah. And then my, my dad remarried very quickly, which was probably almost. More difficult, if not as difficult as the divorce itself. Sure. That was just a huge, huge part of what defined the rest of my life. And, and that's what it did. It defined, you know, 40 years of everything I did every single day mm-hmm , you know, so everyone who you talk to, I commands so much for having that strength to speak up because having gone through this now, here's my dad who has chosen another family.

Yeah. You know, how do, how do you deal with that? I, I still don't know how you deal with that and it's yeah, it's constant. He just remarried so fast that I just knew every time he made that choice. Choosing the other family, it took all of my self worth away that I wasn't more important than they were.

Right. Cuz he was choosing them over you. Yes mm-hmm and, and all the time mm-hmm and unfortunately, you know, that's continued all through my life, but that was really a pivotal pivotal thing for me. Was that being remarried so quickly. I, as a child, I don't know, you know, I'm barely getting over if they're all they're not married anymore, but.

Yet he's marrying someone else. That was really hard. Yeah. It just kind of snowballed from there. You know, mm-hmm because everything I knew was gone, I mean, I, I no longer had a family. My siblings, unfortunately, being older than I was chose sides. Um, you know, with one parent or another, for whatever reason, I don't again have any judgment on them.

And cuz their experience was very different than mine. Mm-hmm I, I can't have any judgment on what they did, but all of a sudden they were all just gone. So I had no family left my mom now all of a sudden had to go back to the workforce because we were just left. So I was used to being home. You know, with mom home.

And she would be there every day when I got home from school and dinner was always made. And you know, that picture perfect kind of life that you think of. Yeah. Obviously I didn't know as a child, that that's really not the way it was, but sure. In my eyes, that's how it was now of a sudden she had to go back to work.

Um, I became a latchkey kid now who would have to come home alone every day. Didn't know when she'd be able to come home. So everything fell apart. Um, I stopped seeing siblings cuz they kind of would chose my dad's side. So the older siblings kind of went with him. The younger two of us kind of went with my mom.

So that just split everything completely up. We had to move again because we could no longer afford to live where we were. So we had to move into a very small little, two bedroom. I had to share a room with my mom kind of a thing just to make ends meet. And that was really hard. I had to change schools, which all of a sudden I'm going to a school that really wasn't the safest school.

Um, so I started seeing things. In my, what we like to call the Utah bubble that we live in. I had some things I had never witnessed before and now sudden I'm seeing this kind of different stuff and that was, it just felt all confusing. Yeah. How is someone that young supposed to cope with all of this?

It's it's impossible. Mm-hmm with, unless, you know, maybe you have like incredible support. Maybe you can get through it, but it's all, it's all about surviving it. It's it's just not supposed to be this way. It's so damaging. And it always baffles me how people will say, well, well, children are resilient.

They'll be fine. Mm it's. You know, the divorce isn't that big of a deal. Yeah. But then we just constantly hear stories from people like you. Most of us, most people like us are not willing to even talk about this because we're afraid of hurting our parents. Mm-hmm we, we wanna protect them. We love. And so yes, when you really look into it though, and that's what this entire podcast has been about, um, it is really, really damaging.

And like you said before, like how is a 10 year old supposed to wrap their head around this? And, and then in the years that followed, of course, how are you supposed to deal with all these changes and the, the additional trauma that's happening, uh, in your life? It is a lot mm-hmm I mean, thank. We're not doomed to stay there, but it, it is a ton when you're going through it.

Well, and, and unfortunately, I mean, I, I did get stuck there right in my brain for 40 years have been stuck there. Hmm. When I say that, that defined me, it definitely 100% defined, most everything I've done to be 50 years old and still haven't been able to deal with this is just crazy to then hear other people say children, not resilient.

You know, like, no, absolutely. No. They're, they're not always resilient. And if they go through something like this and I've been taught for so long, we just don't talk about it. That that has to go somewhere. The pain had to go somewhere. And so that frustrates me when I hear the same thing that kids, kids will handle it, they can make those changes.

And, um, you know, I don't always agree with that. And that's, that's, it is kind of a hard thing too, to be an adult child of divorces that a lot of people really just don't agree with position on things like that. And so you're constantly throughout your adult life, at least the experiences I've had been made to feel that you're wrong.

Like I'm wrong. I shouldn't feel that way. I should just get over it. Yeah, I should have just let it go. And I get that a lot from adult to adult telling me that as well. Mm-hmm , you know, I, I, this is just a little funny side note is I at one time, I think I was some. 40 35 maybe and found a group of people who needed help with going through divorce.

And the way I read the description was it would be something helpful to me. Mm-hmm so I went to this a group and it was probably 10, 12 people. Well come to find out it was a group of married people going, trying to figure out divorce. And I'm the only person in this group of people who is a child of divorce.

Oh man. Awkward. Right. Yeah. And so the question is you stay, do you go, where do you do? And I thought, well, maybe I could benefit a little from hearing where they're coming from. Sure. Unfortunately, all it did was make me more frustrated because it was just all about them and the angers they had between each other.

Mm-hmm and not even thinking about the kids. Wow. Yeah, it was a, it, I stuck it out for the six weeks or whatever. And, um, I, I was forthcoming and saying, look, I'm, I'm not divorced. I'm am a child of a divorce though. Um, so I, maybe I have something that will help you. I don't know, but it was very different to sit and listen to that side of it as well.

So I try not to be judgemental people going through that, or, you know, not every case is the same, but sure. I would hope that for a few minutes that people could hear our side too. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, there certainly are cases where it's unavoidable because maybe there's violence or there's drugs or there's of course, stuff like that.

But most cases aren't like that. And of course, statistically. You know, holds up the estimates out there that maybe 30% of divorces are like that, where there's like violence or abuse, danger, things like that. And then 70% are just where the most common reason for divorce is irreconcilable differences.

That's the most common quoted reason for divorce. And so it's, so this fascinating that in that force support group, I guess we'd call it. Yeah. There's no mention of the kids, which is very, um, indicative of, of kind of how we approach this as a culture overall. It's like the parents, you know, obviously there's issues, I'm not making light of that.

There's some real problems that need to be solved and you know, I'm not passing judgment on everyone. Who's struggling cuz that happens so often in marriage. Of course. Um, but, but yeah, just the complete, I guess, forgetfulness of the kids, it's really sad. Yeah. Yeah. And I, a big, huge part of that for me was one I always questioned why wasn't I worth it?

Mm. Why wasn't I worth it for you guys to work it out? What was so bad that. I wasn't worth the trouble to fix this. And that is something that has stuck with me for my entire life. And I've struggled a lot with insecurity and feeling like I'm just not, I'm not worth it, you know? And I know I've discussed with you.

I, I went into depression. Which I've suffered with for a long time. Mm-hmm and that included suicidal thoughts, which, you know, my family has no idea. I went through that still to this day. They don't know that I suffered with that. Wow. Because it's not comfortable to talk about with somebody who doesn't understand and you know, I'm coming from a place where neither of my parents were, or excuse me, their parents were not divorced.

Mm-hmm your grandparents. Okay. My grandparents were all married till they passed away. Even my husband, his parents, same thing. So none of them understood what that felt like. So it was very difficult for me to understand why wasn't they enough to keep the family together, you know? and that's something I've dealt with through my marriage, with everything.

And I still, to this day, I don't have a relationship with my dad at this point. Um, because I've spent, you know, 40 years dealing with not feeling or wanting the question answered as to why didn't you choose me? Because that's really how I feel is you, you are not choosing me in everything that you're doing.

Whereas my mom, she stayed with us. She was there for us. She financially put herself out there for us. She didn't remarry till after I got married and said that she wouldn't. Because we were more important. Wow. So it's kind of funny that I feel not so much that way with my mom, but a hundred percent with my dad as to why don't you choose me?

You know, even when I got married, even a situation that had to do with my own wedding, where there was an issue with me not wanting his wife on my wedding invitations, because she's not my mom mm-hmm and that's honestly how I felt like I want, my mom deserves 100% to be on there. And my dad, those are my parents.

Mm-hmm and yet my invitations showed up printed with her on there. Mm. So it's, it's just been, I have story after story, after story of that, of not, you're not choosing me and I don't get that. So especially when I had kids, it even brings it up more. Mm-hmm , that's kind of where my core belief of myself comes from.

is why wasn't I enough? Yeah. And that's such a great question. And it's such a debilitating question because we might never receive the full answer for that, which is yeah. Just so hard. And I'm so sorry for everything you've been through it. Every thing you're talking about, I'm like, yep, yep, yep. Yep.

Mm-hmm I just totally relate to what you're saying. Even down to some of the details, like, you know, your dad showing up to go through your mom's things when she wasn't around that, that happened with my family too. So, so many of the things that you said and just how defining this has been like, even, even as a young teenager, uh, just a few years removed from the separation.

I just knew I'm like, that thing was so pivotable for me. mm-hmm and yet, for some reason, no one was talking about it, which is baffling. Like yeah. You know, just like you there's so much silence around this problem. And, uh, yeah, so man, it just breaks my heart that you've had to struggle like this for 40 years.

Yeah. And there's been just no one there to give you the help that you needed. It shouldn't be this way. It just shouldn't be this way. No, it shouldn't. And you know, um, it's not because I didn't look for help because I did. I mean, like I told you, I suffer from depression. I, I reached out, I've gone to counseling for 30 years almost, um, with counselors trying to help me and none of them got it.

And I've had more than one counselor. I've had several and you know, and I would always try to make sure I researched and kind of went with who I felt would be comfortable with my situation, my beliefs, the whole thing. Sure. And not to say that they weren't great counselors that had nothing to do with it.

And maybe there were things that they just couldn't say, but in all of those years of counseling, I have never been affected the way I was listening to your podcast. Hmm. Because for the first time in ever, and I literally can say ever there was somebody else who was saying what I had felt and understood that, and those counselors never, they couldn't do that.

They could say, oh yes, you have depression. Um, you're sad. You're, you know, you need to reconcile things. They'd give me books to read nothing helped because I never heard the words spoken. Like you guys have spoken them. To where I can. I almost just wanna jump up and be like, yes. Finally, somebody understands what it feels like to live through this and know how painful it is.

It's I'm not, I'm not kidding with that. That's not even an over exaggeration of the 30 years I've had the counseling has not helped me as much as this has wow. Ever because, and I, I think it's just because it's, nobody has understood. Whereas you, when I know there's other people hurting the same way I am, it's just feels more like, okay, you get it.

Mm-hmm, a lot of it too. Maybe has to do with trust. Like I trust how you feel because you've lived it. Mm. Yeah. I've had a lot of problems with trust in my lifetime and getting close to people. Um, because you know, they're gonna leave mm-hmm right. I mean, yeah, if you let yourself get close to someone, they're just gonna walk away from you cuz that's what happens.

And so I never let people close mm-hmm um, I always would just kind of keep them away from me enough, but it, it almost feels like you're an outsider looking in mm-hmm it almost feels like an out of body experience all the time where I'm an outsider looking into other people going, wow, that must feel great to have that family.

Right. But I'm so removed from it that I can never let myself be part of that. Wow. Like I don't honestly, at my age I have a hard time really understanding how people have such close friends. Mm-hmm , it's such an odd thing to me to have people that you can just fill a hundred percent of yourself with.

Because I've never had that. Totally. So to hear you guys speak about it is just like this light bulb moment for me. And I think I've told you this, but I still deal with those kind of thoughts, the bad thoughts when things happen. I go straight to that dark place. I think anybody who's been there understands, oh yeah.

That I go from good to, okay. Something's happening. I'm going straight to that dark place where I don't need to be here anymore. And now when that happens to me, I go and listen to your podcasts and I can feel like there's people who understand. And that's all I think I've ever looked for for the past 40 years.

And I've never had that, which don't you think is amazing that I've never come across that it is. And I'm just standing here speechless. And I know, you know, we've talked for like outside of this show about your story and, um, it brought me to tears because. It's just should not be this way. And I'm so glad that we've been able to help you and, and you know, more than just me, of course, it's my team and it's the guests and who've come on this show, but it's so, uh, I'm so glad, uh, the same time, I'm really sad that it's taken this long for just something to be helpful to you because everyone else is telling us like, Oh, just move on and you'll be fine.

But really what you were looking for, like you said, is some sort of validation, some sort of affirmation saying, there's nothing wrong with you for feeling this way. In fact, you're it's right. Like you're feeling the right way. Given the circumstance that your family just was destroyed, your dad chose another family over you and all the other things that followed.

And it's just tragic that there, and you're not alone. That, that's the thing that's crazy about this too. It's like Holly, you know, obviously it's amazing. Like you're so articulate listening. I could listen to you talk forever, seriously. and you're so articulate with these experiences that you've had. Um, yet there's so many people out there who either won, they lack the awareness.

They can't even put this stuff into words, um, or two, even if they can, um, like, like you found for, for most of your life, there's just nothing out there to help them. And yeah. You know, it can end very badly, like you're saying, even with the suicidal thoughts, which as, you know, people like us are, were more likely to attempt suicide statistically.

And it's just so tragic that there's been so little done for people like us. So thank you for being part of the solution, being on the show. And I, I know this episode's gonna give a lot of people, a lot of hope, you know, the biggest thing was, and I, and I've been married for close to 31 years now. Mm-hmm and I went into it very much.

Like divorce is not an option. So whoever is with me, it. It's not even on the table. So one thing I, I did get very lucky with my partner. Um, my husband is a just amazing man that never gave up on me as much as I tried to make him give up on me. Wow. I tried and I tried to push him away and I walk away and I just kept waiting for the day he was gonna leave me.

Mm. Because that's what husbands do. Right. That's honestly, I can tell you that's how I felt. Yeah. And I will be a hundred percent truthful and I've shared this with him. That it's only been until recently that I'm finally believing that he's not going anywhere. Wow. And we're celebrating 31 years together this year.

Well, married, we've been together 32. Um, and I got married very young. I got married two weeks after I turned 20. Okay. Yep. Yep. So very young and all 30 years I've just been waiting and he, he tells me all the time, I'm not going anywhere. You are stuck with me, but I never believed him, you know? And that, that a hundred percent comes from this divorce experience.

Oh yeah. That I have never believed I am worth enough for him to stick around. There's somebody out there better for. is how I always feel. So why I just need to let him go. So he can go be with whoever where it's, like I said, just recently, I've, I'm really starting to feel like he's, he's not gonna leave me.

Mm-hmm , you know, and we've had three kids together and, um, we in this divorce definitely define the type of mom that I am. It changed everything and, and things will always periodically come up. The more experiences I have that bring me back to this divorce. When I started having my kids, it got even harder, honestly, because then I'm like, I love this little being more than life itself.

How could I ever do anything to hurt that? Mm, wow. And that's how I felt all of a sudden, I know, I feel as a mom, How I feel about my children and I would never hurt them intentionally ever, but then I would feel like, okay, so was, did my parents not feel that way about me? And why not? Yeah. You know, I mean, that, that stuck me for a long time.

And, and throughout my children's lives, I had to make everything perfect for them. Mm-hmm , you know, holidays had to be perfect birthdays, pretty much everything that I missed out on, I had to make right. For them, you know, but I didn't realize that's what I was doing until a lot later in life. Yeah. But that's what I was trying to prove to them.

And I still do this. I'm, I'm very guilty of this constantly trained to prove that I'm a good mom and that I will never hurt them. And I would never put them through the experience I went. Wow. You know, so that's, the divorce definitely affected everything that had to do with my marriage, raising my children, which, you know, they're pretty much raised now ages 17 to 27.

So, but it still brings up questions for me, which is amazing. Cuz I'm to the point where in the near future, hopefully I'll have grandkids. Mm-hmm I could never in a hundred years imagine not being a part of their lives. So therefore it brings up the pain again, as to why can't my dad be a part of my kids' lives or why, how do you choose not to be a part of.

I don't understand me neither. And, and I can't, honestly, I can't, I can't answer those questions. He can't answer those questions. I've, I've tried. I've I've literally written down. This is what I need you to say, and that doesn't work either. Wow. So, I mean, as far as like healing from it, I don't have a ton of advice on healing from, because I am such at an early stage mm-hmm in the healing process.

I don't feel like I've even begun to start healing until I found you guys and related to all of your podcasts. So well, and I just, I think I mentioned this to you. I. Just listen to the one last week where one of your, I don't know if she's on your staff or not, but wrote that your divorce article. I was at my work desk, just literally crying as I read that because I have never heard anybody verbalize the pain like that.

It was amazing to me. Wow. It was just one more feeling of, oh my gosh, they get it. Somebody understands. And so, you know, I kind of hope one thing I, you know, would just kind of hope is that people never give up trying to find that. I mean, who knew at 50 years old, I would still be, I can be brought to tears in five seconds about my parents' divorce.

It's terrible. I, I would never wish this on anybody. It's, you know, not something, I mean, I wish I could talk to every person who was thinking about going through that and say, look, please don't and here's. So it's affected every part of my life, my marriage. And I mean, I'm very proud of the fact I've been married this long and happily.

So it kind of gave, gives me some faith back into family, which even just saying my hearing, my hip self say that is strange because at 50 years old, I'm just getting the thought of family. Back in there. Mm-hmm . Yeah. Even though, even though I've raised children for 27 years. No, that makes so much sense though.

And it's really inspiring. I have to say, I mean, there's so much that you said that I want to comment on, but I can't comment on everything. Oh. Um, but it's just, it's incredible that you've gone on and built such a beautiful marriage and you know, of course not a perfect marriage. Everyone has this thought of course, but just the fact that you're together.

And that's one thing that you reminded me of earlier is that as kids, we don't really. Care about the problems in our parents' marriage. Like obviously if there's something that's very overt and violent and things like that, of course that affects us at time. Mm-hmm . But, um, but the, the other issues, just like you said, it's like, well, yeah, my parents maybe have some problems and that's that, but they're together and we're a family and to, to kids, it's, that's what we want.

That's what we look for. Um, we, we don't expect our parents to be perfect. We expect them to love us and to stick with us and to fight for us. And when that's taken away, that's way more damaging than going through some of the issues that our parents have in their marriage. Yeah. That's perfect. That's exactly true.

And I think the longer I'm married and the more experience I've had makes me even question more as to why mm-hmm because I've gone through a happy per se life. I mean, I, I will say that. I think I am very lucky to have married, who I'm married to. Sure. If it had been maybe someone else who couldn't have put up with everything, I put him through dealing with this depression and all of this and, and keep in mind the majority of this 30 years, I didn't talk to him about this stuff.

Wow. It just, again, I didn't know how he would ever understand because his parents were together. There's no way he could understand how I felt so to not have that understanding, which is in no fault to his own, because I'm grateful. He didn't have to understand. Right. But I, you know, I didn't have that.

And so I chose. To continue the cycle of not talking about it. That's a conscious choice I've made every single day is not to talk about it until recently, but there's definitely in her dear divorce letter. There's just one line. And I have it written that just that where divorce makes you feel unlovable and you're not worthy and you're not good enough.

That's how I have felt. Even in the security of a long marriage, which again, no fault to his own. I feel like I got super lucky to have had somebody who would stand by me through all of this and fight and say, I'm not leaving, but if you look, you know, if you stand back and look at it and really think about it, I had this one decision when I was 10 years old made for me.

Right. Um, to say all these things that you're, you're not good enough, you weren't worth it. And I let that control 30 years. Of love and acceptance. And I'm not walking out on you yet. That one decision when I was 10 years old was more powerful than 30 years. My goodness that says it, right? Like I stop and think about that and think that's that it was more powerful for me from that age to have lived with this for 30 years.

Even though I have a man standing by me who says every day, I love you. I accept you. Just like you are. I will never leave you every single day says that to me. And after 30 years, I'm just now getting that. That's amazing to me. Yeah. It speaks volumes. Yeah. When you hear children are resilient, I'm like, I hope most kids are, but that one decision has been in my brain every single day for 30 years, even though someone's standing next to me saying, I'm not leaving you mm-hmm and I don't believe it.

Wow. That's just, I couldn't have said it better. That is so profound. And it's, it's hard to wrap your head around that. And mm-hmm, I think people who say that kids are resilient. I think there's a few reasons to it. One, maybe they want them to be, and two, they observe us from the outside. You know, Holly, if I looked at your life, I would probably say, oh, you've had a good, happy, yes, successful life.

You mm-hmm , you know, were successful. Um, in your family, like raising your kids, you have great kids, you have a good marriage, you had a successful career, like all these things. Um, but they don't see on the inside, they don't see what we're wrestling with. And I think that's why there's this belief that we're so resilient.

That's, that's perfect because that's exactly the, the way it is too. People do look into my life and they're like, oh, you do everything for your kids. And you, you make their birthday so fun. And, um, you know, every little even St Patrick's day, whatever. There's always a little something or you're right though, you're there, they don't see inside and they don't know why I'm doing all that.

They don't know why, you know, I have to be everything. I have to be home the home mom and I have to be the PTA president and I have to be, you know, doing everything with my kids, all, you know, that kind of a thing. Mm-hmm and they look in and they're like, yeah, you have a great, like, but reality is it's been, I don't a living hell, really trying to deal with it and deal with it alone and alone was by my choice.

You know, I can, I decided I made the decision to, to struggle silently with this and just try to fix it on my own. But it was always because in the back of my head, I'm just not worth it. Mm-hmm mm-hmm. It's hard when people always say, well, say to me, well, you're not alone. The minute someone will say that my brain automatically says, yes, you are alone.

Mm-hmm , mm-hmm, it's automatic. Yep. So that's why I think what you are doing. And these people that are contributing to this are just miracle workers. Because for the first time ever, I feel like I'm not alone. So beautiful is crazy to me. Like I said, after 40 years to have not found anything that has worked to finally feel somebody who knows how you feel.

I mean, it's just incredible. And I can't thank you enough for that, because I honestly feel like you have saved me, literally. I think about the words you guys talk about all of you every single day, because for me that's this divorce has been every single day of my life. Yeah. And now I'm trying to choose to go with.

Okay. Here's what they've said. Here's this beautiful letter that as painful as this, that she had to write it, somebody gets it. Never have. I had that ever. So I can honestly, with all my heart say, you guys have literally saved me because I see hope now. Hope that the next, hopefully 30 years I have with my husband, I can let him in more because I don't feel like I'm crazy.

you know, that's terrible to say, but I don't feel like I'm crazy. Like I did before, as far as nobody understand, you're not crazy. No, this is man. You're making me tear up, like, thank you so much for everything you said. Cause yeah, you're the reason we do this. And so thank you for just sharing your story.

Just the such profound insights you have into this. I, I could tell you've thought about this a lot and you've wrestled with this a ton and mm-hmm, , I'm just so glad we've been able to serve you and play a role in this and it's humbling to hear, but, um, it's, it's amazing at the same time. And uh, like I shared with you before we we're recording, I shared some of the things that you've said with my team and that made them so happy just to know that this is meaningful work that they're doing.

And um, that episode you were talking about for anyone who wants to go back and listen to that, which I highly recommend, and I know all you would as well, that's episode eight, That's episode eight with Miranda Rodriguez. And, uh, in the first few minutes of that, she shares this article. She wrote this letter called dear divorce, and it's just so beautiful and moving.

Um, and even if you listen to nothing else in that episode, just listen to that letter. And it's, it's very profound and, and moving just like, uh, your story, Holly. And I just wanted to say that I I'm so sorry for everything you've been through. And as you know that I get it, we get it. Mm-hmm and I'm just so glad you're on this path, and this is helping you, that it's working, which is so amazing.

And the, the lie that that's core belief that you have, that you're just not worth it. You're not enough. Um, I just wanna say to. That it is such a lie and you are worth and you are enough and for whatever it's worth, um, you're worth it for me and my team to do all the work that we do to, to help people like you.

And so just please receive that and just know that you are worth it. You are worth it. And if we need to remind you every day, we'll do it. Okay. I may need you to do that every now and then for sure that we will, it means a lot, even though my brain says something else. Maybe it'll be 30 years before I believe it, but Hey, one day into 30 years, I'm good.

You know, we can do it. Absolutely. And I have a suspicion that it's not gonna take that long. So I, I, uh, man, I love talking with you, Holly. Thank you so much. And was there anything else you wanted to say before we close out the show? I, I don't think so. I just wanna encourage anybody to, I mean, I give your stuff out to everybody that I know that is thinking even of divorce or just, we need to somehow figure out how to talk about this and open up the communication on this.

You know, I even printed out her article and I carry it with me and I can show it to my husband and say, look, this is how I feel. This is what I went through. So I think it's just important that we continue to somehow, especially for those of us who are terrible at open communication, that it's okay to talk about it.

and if we could hand that article, I, I swear to every couple thinking of divorce, maybe they would think twice about it and just never give up looking. I mean, who knows? You could be 50 years old and, and find your savior like I have found in you and your podcasts. Hmm. So thank you. I can't tell you all.

Thank you enough, because you've all the work you guys are doing. If nothing else, you have saved at least one person and that's me. So thank you.

Ma'am what an interview. If you wanna reach out to Holly, if you wanna speak with her, you can contact her through email or through social. Uh, her email is DZ, N Y land fan Gmail. So Disneyland fan gmail.com. This is all in the show notes, by the way. So you can look there to, uh, to get her email, uh, on Facebook.

You can just search Holly. Ly or just click on the link in the show notes. And then on Instagram, her handle is at DSNY land, L a N D fan. So again, Disneyland fan. And she'd love to hear from you. She said, she'd love to just talk with you, be here for you. Listen, uh, if you need it. So feel free to reach out to her a couple quick takeaways for you to think about one.

We really deserve to know why our parents got divorce. Eventually, you know, maybe if you're really young, your mom or your dad might keep that from you, but eventually we deserve to know what happened and why they got divorced. And so my question to you is this, do you know why your parents got divorced?

Do you know why they separated? And if not, what would it take for you to have a healthy conversation with them about it? Again, you deserve to know, and, and if you're not ready for that, if it would be, you know, really painful or unhealthy, or just too intense for where you're at in life, I don't recommend doing it.

Um, but if you're in a good spot and you feel like this would be a good thing for you to know, and it would help you heal and move on in life, which honestly, I think it would, then you deserve that. And so bring it up and how to do that. A few things. One, I would, you know, obviously sit mom or dad down, whoever you're closer to, and you have a better relationship with start with that person and just preface the conversation by saying.

I have something difficult. I wanna talk to you about kind of just sets the tone, right. Instead of just maybe launching into the question of like, why did you and dad get divorced? You can say that if you want, depending on your relationship, but it's usually good to preface it and say, Hey mom, Hey dad, uh, I have a really difficult question.

I want to talk with you about I'm a little. Uncomfortable bringing it up, but I wanna have a conversation with you about it because it's really important to me. So make sure you preface it and that will help make you a little bit more comfortable and your parent more comfortable and then start with leading with your intention too.

So after you preface it, you can say something like. I really just wanna know why did you and dad get divorced? Why did this not work out? And I, I, I'm not asking this to make you feel bad, I'm just asking it so I can understand. And, and I can find some closure here. I can, you know, maybe move on, move past some of the struggles that I've deal with.

So just tell them why you're asking and make sure it's more about you than them. And it's something that you just wanna really understand for your own sake to help you heal and grow and, and move on in your life. And then when they tell you, just listen, just listen to reflect, you know, don't think you need to go in and have like an argument or response, everything they say, just receive it, just say, okay, thank you for sharing that with me really interesting or whatever response you wanna say.

Just try not to be judgmental in that moment. Just listen and hear them out for what they have to say. And you might get an opportunity to share. Some things you wanna say too. And if you want to share those things, you don't have to, though this might be a good conversation for you not really to speak and just to listen and just to receive what they're saying.

And, uh, you know, at a later point, if you wanna bring up a conversation where you tell them, or, you know, one or both parents about what you've been through, you can do that, but maybe that'll be best, kept for different conversation though. Feel free to do it in this conversation if you want. And then the last point I would say is make sure to just thank them for sharing it with.

Assuming it all goes well. Right? Assuming that they're open about it, assuming that they tell you the truth, you know, hopefully that they will be more forthcoming. Um, just thank them, you know, cuz it's not easy for our parents either. It's not easy for them to talk about it. Maybe they made some mistakes.

Maybe they made some decisions that ended up bringing this all about. Um, but you can just thank them for their time. You can thank them for, for sharing with you. So again, preface it with saying, you know, Hey, this is an uncomfortable conversation for me. It might be for you too lead with your intention saying, Hey, here's why I wanna know this.

This really is for me. And then just listen to reflect on what they're saying. Don't try to refute it. Don't try to debate them or, you know, make it all about the way they screwed up. Just, just listen to reflect and try to understand where they're coming from and then thank them for, for sharing. And hopefully this will maybe open a door for you to talk with them more about this problem, about these issues that you've dealt with because of the breakdown.

Of your family. And honestly, there's research that shows that this is so healing, like the stronger your relationship with mom or dad are both ideally the less, um, anxious you'll feel the less depressed you'll feel you'll you'll deal with loneliness left. You'll, you'll feel less lonely, all these good things that can come about.

If you build up that relationship. Mom or dad both. And I've had the opportunity to talk with my parents at different points. And it has been very, very helpful. It's helped me understand them more. It's helped me get answers to certain things. And honestly just, I guess, have more of a compassionate, merciful heart towards them.

Cuz in a lot of ways, I, I have felt very hurt by them and they know that. And so it's been really good though to, to talk to them about them kind of just instead of this being this big silent wound that no one talks about it, it has really been something now that we're able to at least discuss on certain occasions.

And I hope that we'll have even more conversations like that in the future. So I want the same thing for you as well. The other takeaway, I'm sorry, this isn't as quick cuz I thought it would be the other takeaway Holly gave her kids what she never had and you can do that. Just so beautiful. So inspiring what Holly did.

You can do that as well. And so the question is this, what do you wanna give your children or your future children? That you never had because of your parents' divorce because of their broken marriage. And maybe more importantly, what's preventing you from doing that. What's holding you back. Think about that.

Cuz those barriers that are standing in your way, those are the things you need to focus on. Those are the things you need to work through because if you want that really beautiful life, that that you've dreamed about, that that really is deep in your heart. That that's a desire there. You really need to focus on those obstacles that are preventing you from having that.

And so again, what do you wanna give your children or your future children that you never had because of your parents broken marriage and more importantly, you know, what's holding you back, give that some thought and then make a plan to overcome it. If we can help you in any way, we of course are here to do.

Before closing out the show. I just wanted to say, we'd love to hear about how restored has helped you now. For one, it really gives us insight into what is most valuable for you guys. You know, if you say this episode or that piece of content has been really helpful, it helps us know. To keep doing more of that.

And it also helps us to set strategy for the future. Maybe trying some new things based on your feedback, based on what's helped you, what hasn't helped you. And it really shows other people the effectiveness of our work, which can convince people to, to use our content, to use the tools and to engage with us.

And so if you wanna share your testimony of how restored has helped you just go to restored ministry.com again, restored ministry ES singular slash testimony. Again, restored ministry.com/testimony could also just click on the link in the show notes. And then you're just gonna answer some quick questions about how restored has helped you.

And this could be totally anonymous. It's your choice. You don't have to put your name on it. We just love to hear from you. And so if you wanna please share how ReSTOR has helped you today ever ReSTOR ministry.com/testimony. And finally keep an eye out for more info about the book that we're publishing the next episodes, uh, on social as well.

And on our email list, we'll be sending out more info, special offers, a bunch of bonuses, really cool stuff that we've been working on for you guys. Super excited. So stay tuned for that. Resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 50. Thank you so much for listening. Always remember you are not alone.

We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#049: Healing from Your Parent’s Infidelity | Katie

What would you do if you were 12 years old and you accidentally found out that your mom is cheating on your dad? That’s the exact situation that today’s guest faced as a little girl.

We discuss how she felt that her mom not only cheated on her dad, but on her and her siblings too. Plus, we get into:

• The ways in which her mom’s infidelity wounded her

• How that wound was reopened when two boyfriends cheated on her in high school and college

• The connection between her parents’ divorce and her desire for control in life and relationships

• How on the external, everyone thought she was fine since she excelled in sports and school, but she was really hurting inside

• One very common factor at the root of so many divorces and affairs

Share your story

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• Books:

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  • Uncompromising Purity

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Imagine that you're 12 years old and you accidentally find out that your mom is cheating on your. What would you do? That's the exact situation that my guests today face as a 12 year old girl, like absolutely devastating. So sad yet. It's so common infidelity is so common. In fact, as you probably know, it's one of the top causes of divorce and it's absolutely heart wrenching, not only for the spouse who is cheated on.

But also for the children who were equally cheated on and abandoned. And so in this episode, my guest and I discussed that and we talk about the ways in which her mom's infidelity, wounded, her. She shares how that wound was reopened. When two boyfriends cheated on her in high school and college, we discussed the connection between her parents, divorce and her desire for control and life.

And especially in her relationships, she explains how on the outside looking in, it looked like everything was fine with her, cuz she was excelling in sports and in school, but inside she was really hurting. We also touch on one very common factor at the root of so many divorces and affairs, powerful episode, powerful story from my guests today with a lot of practical takeaways.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Elli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 49 in today. I'm joined by Katie. Katie is a fertility nurse in Denver, Colorado.

She was born and raised in Nebraska where she attended the university of Nebraska Lincoln and received her undergraduate degree in nutrition science. She then attended an accelerated nursing program through U N M C. She's passionate about sharing her story in order to help others see their potential to be healed, transformed, and live a life fully alive.

Kitty's hobbies include praying, hiking, camping, volleyball, and really anything sports or outdoors. Related. And I have to say, I don't know Katie super well, but I was really impressed with her and everyone I've talked to who knows her, has just said great things about her. So I'm really excited for you to hear this conversation.

Katie is a Catholic Christian, so you're gonna hear her talk about faith, talk about God. And if that's not you, if you don't believe in God, I'm really happy you're here. And my challenge for you is this, go into this with an open mind. That's it just go into with an open mind and I guarantee you that you're gonna gain something from this episode.

You're gonna walk away with some inspiration or maybe some practical advice that you can use to heal and to grow. So here's my conversation with Katie,

Katie. Hey, welcome. Hi, thank you. This is great. Excited to be here. Yes. Yeah, yeah. We haven't done an in-person interview in a long time, so it's great to have you in the little studio just to set the scene for everyone. We're sitting in our little restored studio and uh, good vibes. Yeah. I love it. I love it here.

And, uh, we have, yeah, Katie's sharing some coffee and we're just chilling and it's great to have here. I, I think we met years ago at a party, right? Yeah. Yeah. Kind of just recently reconnected at St. Vincent de Paul, but yeah, it's been a little while. Yeah. Yeah. It's great to have you here. Let's go back in time.

Let's go back to when your parents separated and divorced, take us there. How old were you? What happened? How did you react to it? I was actually 22 and my parents finally divorced. Um, but I will take you back to when I was 12 years old. Um, just because from the time I was 12 until the time I was 22 was just kind of the thick of the turmoil with my parents.

Um, yeah. So when I was 12 years old, . Yeah, it was just kind of like a normal day in the summer, um, in my house. And I don't even know why I was on my parents' computer and my mom had had her email pulled up and I think I was probably honestly just bored. I like don't think I'm like, I was super like. Yeah, you were, I was not looking for anything.

Yeah. I think I was just bored. And so I started just kind of going through my mom's emails and I found an email from her to, um, another man where yeah, just reading it as a 12 year old. Yeah. Just like stomach dropping, like overwhelming nausea, just kind of knowing what I was reading, but then, um, at the same time, just like kind of being very confused.

I still kind of remember, you know, the words that she was saying, like, this is not my dad. She should not be saying these things. Who is this man named Chris? Um, just feeling very confused. And then also I just kind of even remember like the environment of my house feeling different. This place that was safe.

You know, my mom who was safe, everything that I knew in that world, in the world that I knew it in that moment, um, just totally changing. So I was 12 at the time, my sister was 14 and my brother would've been 17. I went and I grabbed my sister and, um, brought her over to the computer and showed her the email.

We went and got my brother, Matt. He came over to the computer, we read the email and I can't remember if it was in that moment or if it was a little bit later, but we ended up asking my mom to come over to the computer as well. Wow. That's great. Which is, I know it actually like now that I think about it, now, it, yeah, it really is.

Yeah. But I don't, I feel like most kids wouldn't have done that. Good for you. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Um, so I remember my mom coming over to the computer, all of us just being there together while she read the email. And I still remember, even in that moment, just like really studying her, like every expression, just kind of reading her body language, just really kind of in this like fight or flight, like who is this person who, you know, because up until that point, she a very good mother, very loving, very attentive, very selfless.

So just like, I think my little self was trying to figure out life. So my mom read it and she told us that. It was a joke and that essentially that, yeah, he was an old man that she worked with and she had gone on a work trip to California and that the email was just a joke. And so I remember this like wave of relief, just like rushing over my whole body.

And I was like, okay, like life is back to normal. This place is safe. I can trust my mom. She's telling the truth. Yeah. Just feeling very good in that moment with my family. And I still remember going to bed that night and lying in bed and thinking to myself, what if she's lying? I think it's just, you know, my pure younger self, just being able to sense, like that was not normal, you know, even if it, even if she's joking, which I don't think that she was.

Yeah. So that, that was just the first time where my mom lied to us. Yeah. I just kind of the next 10 years, my mom. Kind of primarily, essentially was having an affair with another man who she's married to now and who who's different than the person in the email. But I essentially just like took on a new role.

I was like no longer a daughter. I was now a detective and seriously just, yeah, every couple of months would find a text message. Would hear a phone call, just something that showed that she was being unfaithful. And every time we asked my mom about it, she would lie. And so obviously, I mean, we can get there in a little bit, but just massive trust wounds because not only is my mother not being faithful, not being faithful to her family, to her husband, but also like just being lied to and lied to and lied to for so many years.

Um, makes it very hard to trust really anyone, but, um, anyone . Yeah, because it's like this person who is supposed to know you and love you unconditionally can. Not only hurt you once, but hurt you so many times over and over again. And we trust our parents the most more anyone. Right. Right. So if they betray that trust, we tend to think like, you're saying, well, who can I trust?

Right. Yeah. It's, it's so damaging. Well, yes. And my dad is just the hugest gift. Um, he is just a very good, holy humble man. Um, very faithful. So we, we ended up sharing about the affairs with my dad very early on. And so my dad was also kind of in the same boat as us. Um, also just kind of playing the role of detective and also, you know, trying to give my mom every opportunity to change and to choose our family.

So it was just a very unhealthy environment growing up a lot, a lot of resentment and just. No, no trust there between my mom and my dad, my mom, and all of her kids. And yeah, so essentially, um, I'll just kind of fast forward to the end. There was a lot of, a lot of things, you know, kind of in the, in the middle.

But then when I was a senior in high school, my parents were separated and my dad and I were living at our cabin at the lake and my mom was living at our house in town and we always left our front door unlocked. And I remember coming home and the front door being locked and just being a little bit confused and then going to the back door and coming into our house to find like my mom and like another man's like clothes on the, on the ground.

And, um, essentially my mom was there with the man who she's now married to. And so, yeah, that's how really it ended and how ultimately my dad was kind of like, you know, I value the sacrament of marriage and it's just kind of being made a mockery right now. And so that's eventually what led to their divorce, even though really my dad just did not want their marriage to end because of really like the, the sacrament of it.

And he's just such a good and faithful man. So, yeah. And he probably knew what an effect it would have on you guys too, even though of course, that environment you were living had to change. There's no questioning that right, man. Um, but it sounds like he did the right thing. He tried to rescue the marriage and then, um, there wasn't, you know, an effort on both ends, which is so sad.

Wow. That is traumatic. Which often isn't talked about, we don't talk about divorce and separation. Just things that happened in broken families as trauma. Wow. That is unbelievable. And I think, yeah, what, what you said just there being such a disconnect. you know, between the things you saw every day or, or at least the, what you perceived from your mom and then the reality like underneath, and I'm sure I know you love your mom.

Mm-hmm , I'm sure there's like a lot of yeah. Difficult feelings there. Yeah. Just, I'm sure she's dealt with so much shame just needing to live those two lives. Like something's really wrong there if someone does that. And so what we can get into that a little bit more, but I'm curious if you're open to sharing.

How long do you think that stuff went on for? I think, I mean, I think it was just for those 10 years, which is a long time that is time. Do you think it was prior to when you find that found that email or was that a more recent when occurrence that just started around that time? Yeah, I do feel like the timing.

I, I'm not exactly sure, but I do think that it was all relatively new. We did start to kind of see some changes in my mom. I don't exactly know what spurred them, but I do think that. it had not been going on for long before I found that email. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I've heard stories where things have happened for like 10 years, like an affair or something like that.

And, uh, it took that long to come out. Wow. This is crazy. So yeah, man, so much there. Uh, we're gonna talk more about that, cuz I think that wound of infidelity we can call it is very unique and it's not talked about much. And I think because you know, we love our parents and that's one of the things I'm sure you've thought a lot about it's like I don't, you know, wanna hurt my parents.

And one of the things I realized recently I was reading David Goggin's book can't hurt me. And if, have you heard of him? Cause this Navy seal for anyone who doesn't know him, he's this Navy seal who just came from an extremely broken family. He's an African American. And just like basically there, he had real racism in his life and things like that.

basically, he started going down this path of just repeating that cycle. And, uh, in the end he just realized like, if I don't do something and take ownership of this mess that I've been handed by, my parents, I'm just gonna end up just like them. Amazing story. So he, basically, one of the things he says in the book is that, um, his dad was super abusive.

He had like multiple affairs and he said that a lot of times he would hide his own pain and not bring things up that were uncomfortable for his parents, um, because he was trying to protect them. So not only was it kind of this, I'm just gonna hide it, um, to keep the peace, but they're like actively protecting his parents in a way, or at least, you know, one of them, his mom in this case it's because he just didn't wanna hurt her.

She had been through so much already. And I think that that happens so often. So it's an important topic. We'll get into it more. Yeah. Was there anything else you wanted to add about kind of how. You reacted to it in the years that followed. I think that the way that I responded was th this is such a strong word, and I don't feel it now, but I think, yeah, I, my younger self just really resented.

and I was gonna use the word hate, but like, I, honestly, those were words that like, I really truly felt when I was that, that age and going through this, but just really resented and like really, truly hated my mom. Can I stop you right there? Mm-hmm so for, anyone's not here with us in the room. I can see you're uncomfortable when you say those words.

Yeah. Which I just wanna point that out and I'm sure you know this, but there's something that's so prevalent in our culture and probably anywhere in the world is we tend to like demonize negative emotions, like hate or anger or sadness or things like that. So , but it's important and this is good for any parents listening.

It's really important to allow yourself, your children and anyone else. Who's listening to allow yourself to feel those negative emotions and they can't be uncomfortable. I'm not like putting it inside. that's OK. Yeah. But no, it's, it's a real problem. And. Especially for people like us who come from broken homes, we deal with so many heavy and negative quote unquote negative emotions.

And if we tend to look at them as like bad, then we are gonna feel a lot of shame. Like something's very flawed and wrong with us at a deep level, and it's gonna inhibit our ability to heal. So I just wanted to point that out. No, that's so good for me here. You, I not teaching you, but for everyone else, I think it's really important to, to understand.

And that's, uh, one of the things I know personally, I want to teach my kids. It's like, yeah, it's okay for you to feel negative emotions like anger and sadness and all those things. Like, there's nothing wrong with you. In fact, there's something very right with you. And I would say it to you too, like the fact that you hated your mom for what she had done, which brought about so many other problems in your life, so much pain to your dad and your siblings and you like, yeah, it makes sense.

Mm-hmm yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's funny because when I. Was thinking about saying that, you know, it's just kind of something where I know other people need to hear it. And it is something that I struggle to say because I, you know, my desire is not to hate anyone and it's not even, yeah, I do not hate my mom.

It is what she chose to do. And those are the things that I hate and you're right. That it is appropriate. And if I did not, there would be something kind of disordered in me. And so, yeah, it's an uncomfortable feeling to feel, but so necessary when there is real injustice happening. So, absolutely. Thanks for saying that.

Yeah, no, of course. It's I totally get what you're saying. And it's important to, I think, bring attention to that. And one of the things that a lot of people in like Christian circles, uh, will, will hear is, you know, hate the sin. Like love the sin, love the sin, hate the sin. And that's basically what you're describing.

It's like, you can still love someone ball, not approving of their behavior, of the things that they're doing. That's always the goal. In the years that followed too. What were the effects that you saw from the, their broken marriage, the separation, all of that? How did it impact your life? Um, so essentially, yeah, I did lose kind of all respect for my mom and just really did rebel in high school.

And in college, I definitely maintained really very good grades and excelled in sports. And so kind of in the eyes of the world was, was still just very successful and doing just fine while kind of getting into the party scene in high school. And then also into college, I was in a sorority and yeah, just in a couple of very unhealthy relationships in high school and in college.

And actually I think the devil knows where we're weak and he knows where to attack. And my boyfriend in high school was a little bit older than me and in college, he was unfaithful to me. My boyfriend in college was also unfaithful to me. And so, you know, just this, like. these two men also who knew about my parents and their marriage and their divorce and my mom's infidelity still choosing that.

Wow. Yeah. Is just really kind of dries home. This like lie that these people that really are supposed to love you and be selfless and sacrifice are going to always choose themselves. And so that's just something that I am like, just kind of now going through a lot of healing and yeah. A lot of redemption there, but yeah, just a lot of, a lot of wounds on top of wounds in that area.

So essentially just, I think coped with it in. Just all of the worldly ways in the party scene. Yeah. Like really focusing on body image, controlling my eating, and then finally kind of when my second boyfriend was unfaithful, really hit what I would call a rock bottom, I think. Yeah. Just really coping in all the wrong ways.

And then I actually was asked to spend a summer in Jacksonville with my cousin nannying for her new baby. And that is really where I experienced my reversion to the faith. I think I just knew that I was not in a good place and that I needed a change. So I brought a whole bunch of good books. Um, men, women in the mystery of love, rediscovering Catholicism, how to find your soulmate without losing your soul.

And I listened to all of these podcasts by father Mike Schmitz. And I went to confession for the first time in several years and like filled an envelope front and back with sins that I needed to confess. And I really think it was the grace from that one confession that. Really just brought me to where I'm at now, which is in a very, very, very different place than I was at the time.

But it was, I mean, there was so much suffering that summer. I was really just drawn out of this life, um, out of all of the heartache and all of the hurt and Jesus just spoke to my heart and healed it. And I remember calling my sister who was a little ahead in the faith. She'd already kind of gone through a version herself and just telling her, you know, like I wanna be a Saint and I wanna be a Saint now.

And it was just a very powerful, yeah, Jesus speaking to my heart and sharing me, sharing with me, who I was in him and yeah. But definitely went through some real coping mechanisms before reaching that point. So totally. And how old were you, uh, that. I was a junior in college. Okay. So that's good. I dunno.

so you're probably like what, 20, 21? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. Yep. Okay. Good to know. Wow. That's profound. That's amazing. And go into the unhealthy coping. Uh, yeah. What were you looking for and all those things. What do you think was the motivation behind you doing a, of things that you did love, love, and unconditional love and attention?

I think, yeah, it's amazing how all of the ways that we are coping, we are really just searching. And I mean, even in the control of eating and body image issues, I know that that's pretty prevalent after you've gone through just a very unstable family environment. It's kind of like, what can I control? And so even in that, not only am I trying to control the thing that I can control, but I'm also trying to gain the attention of men who, you know, I'm looking to fill this void of.

This lack of love that I was not receiving from my mom. Yeah. Really just looking for love in all the wrong places and yeah. Not succeeding and finding it there. Yeah, totally. No, it makes sense. And it's kind of baffling when we look at it logically, it's like, okay, we're doing these things that are actually gonna hurt us in, in a way to escape from the pain and the void of love and affirmation that we want.

But, but we did them anyway. Mm-hmm and I was right there. Yeah. Had a struggle with pornography and all sorts of things through high school, I dealt with loneliness, uh, depression, to some extent, anxiety for sure. And the interesting thing as well. I did well in school. I did well in sports too. And so from the outside, People were, you know, would've looked at me and be like, oh, he's fine.

He's good. And that's, that's really common for people who come from broken families. Like statistically, most people don't experience what we're experiencing most struggle in school. They even drop outta high school or college. That's what the studies have shown. But for those of us who, who do push on, um, and somehow are able to make it through.

In fact, for me, it became a coping mechanism in itself. Like it, I received so much affirmation in sports because I was a good athlete and, you know, in school I wanted to do well because I wanted to please my teachers, I wanted to, you know, have some sort of affirmation that I was lacking from in my case, my dad, especially.

And, uh, yeah, it's, it's real. And it's a huge mistake. Everyone listening, especially any teachers out there or anyone who loves or leads people come from broken homes. Don't be fooled by that. Um, it can be a facade. It can be absolutely a mask that we wear in order to kind of bury the real pain and herd and, you know, it's possible, we're not ready to deal with it at that point in life.

That's totally possible, but it eventually will surface and we're gonna have to deal with it. So that really stood out to me as well. And the controlled piece too, which I can talk about in a second, but I wanna give you a chance to say anything you wanna say. Yeah, yeah, no, that's very true. Yeah. And just kind of you mentioning like your struggle with pornography, that is something also like, I, I think if I really shared all the details of a lot of the aspects of my parents' marriage, it would just, yeah, that there's just a lot there.

Um, but I have been very affected by other people in my life, struggling with pornography. And so in a way that the Lord has really used it. As kind of a driving force in my heart. So my mom also, I struggled with pornography and there were times that yeah, I would happen upon it or have to, you know, see it or listen to it.

And also, um, or a couple of my ex-boyfriends that I knew were using pornography. And it is just something that I know is such a real struggle for so many people. And yeah, I just want to speak very tender lane to those spots because we all, you know, we are all broken and we all deal with things in yeah.

Different ways. And it's just something that I, yeah. I just think needs to really, I think we talked about more just because it is such a huge way that. Families are broken apart and it not only affects men, women, but the children. And it's just a huge way that the devil can break apart this family unit.

And yeah, I mean, I just have this passion place on my heart where, you know, it's, whether it's talking about it or praying rosaries for an end of sexual impurity or volunteering at a home for women who have been sex trafficked, it is such a real evil in our world. And yeah, just, I hope to be a tool to really kind of battle that in some way.

That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Yeah. It's, it's such a plague, but it's like a silent plague in a lot of ways, like a disease that's, you know, slowly and quietly infecting your entire body. And, uh, thankfully for me, you know, I was young when I saw a pornography, I was 11 and struggle with it for, you know, a few years, but had the chance to.

I hear Jason Everett speak and he really helped me. And one of the things I wanna make sure whenever we talk about this is like, there's so much hope and there's freedom and it's possible to get away from Matt. And so for anyone out there, uh, listening, we'll throw some resources in the show notes like Jason Everett and Matt FRA recently came out with a book called forged.

It's a 33 day challenge to break free from pornography. And I think that one specifically for guys, but there's another one for women called you might be able to help you with this uncompromising purity, which is specifically talking about the issues of pornography and masturbation for, for women, which is something that is not talked about nearly enough as well.

So there's all sorts of things there. But I remember I was talking with, uh, someone through ReSTOR and, uh, she was sharing with me how, when she was young, her dad looked at porn like crazy mm-hmm and he actually tried to get her into it, like tried to get her to watch it as well. And like using manipulative and tricky tactics to do.

super dysfunctional. Obviously everything in a broken family is dysfunctional, but, um, this is very real and it's not something like you said, that's talked about enough, so I'm glad you brought that up. And I think it is a less is at the core of so many broken marriages. Uh, you know, maybe it's the driving factor.

Maybe it's just another factor in so many situations. That's, that's absolutely true. And it's devastating. I wanna go to. Control something that we've learned is that people who've been through trauma. They like you and me. They tend to never wanna repeat that again, right? Oh, no. Not tend to. They never . And so one of the things that we intuitively think that we can do in order to prevent any sort of harm like that from happening again, is to control every variable that we possibly can in relationships, in our careers, in life and school and everything.

And that is exhausting. It is so hard. yeah, you're right. It's something that you, probably those of us who, who struggle with it, we probably don't realize actually how much energy we're putting into it, how difficult it is. And so it's a difficult spot to get to, cuz I remember at one point, uh, I was like at the end of high school, beginning of college, Just literally, probably could have been diagnosed with O C D in some ways, and really struggling with that control piece, just wanting to control even things that didn't makes sense.

Really. And I see my siblings actually have struggled with O C D and, uh, that's the trend actually. We're noticing with people come from broken families. We don't know if there's something that we're gonna be looking into the research on it, but man control is a very, very real thing that a lot of us struggle with.

Mm-hmm yeah. I think the biggest way that I struggle with control is when I'm in a relationship. And I think that that probably comes from the biggest fear or my root fear, really being infidelity or, yeah, just dysfunction in the relationship. I don't think I struggle with control too much, I guess. I guess I do.

Yeah. Even outside of relationships, but, but it gets out the most in your relationship. Totally makes sense. Yeah. And even just, you know, when things don't go as planned. Just really struggling to surrender in those moments. So, and I think I, more than I even know, control most parts of my day and yeah, really I think have this false sense of security in that, because I really do think that it really is.

I mean, we are so much less in control than we know or think, but yeah, I think the illusion of us being in control makes us feel a little bit more secure. Totally. The illusion of control. I love it, that, that nails it and, uh, totally relates to that. And I think that there's a lot of people who do so you're not alone.

um, even in my marriage, um, my wife and I are pretty open about things. That's been something that's like difficult, even it, it gets silly at times. She's like, no, I don't want you to wash my clothes. It's like, I got this or something, you know, more serious where it's like, oh, I don't wanna show weakness or be vulnerable because if I do then maybe.

Uh, what happened with my parents' marriage will kind of play out again and that's like terrifying. That's one of my worst fears and that's going to what you said, the fear of infidelity that is so real for so many of us. And I totally read it with that. That that's probably my worst fear. Uh, at least when it comes to, to my marriage is that like, my wife would cheat on me or even I would do something stupid.

So I totally relate on that front. And I can't imagine how damaging it was for you to go through those relationships where those guys cheated on you. Because man, that is just devastating. It just, yeah, you're a nurse, you know, it's like taking a scalpel and just like ripping open like a, a wound that was maybe somewhat healed or at least, yeah.

Maybe not even healed. It was just opening it deeper and bigger. And that is horrible. I can't imagine you mentioned you touched on this already, but yeah. What were you, you. I, I guess, what did you believe about yourself? Did, did you, you thought maybe, I guess, oh gosh, like I'm just not worth loving or what was going on inside of you?

Oh yeah. A bit, but elaborate if you would. Yeah. Two lies that come to mind immediately. Um, which I still definitely struggle with. I am in therapy now, which is very helpful to kind of unpack some of the lies, but definitely I am not enough. I am not worthy. And specifically I'm not beaut beautiful enough, which is just very interesting because I think a lot of things, anything that I really struggle with, they're all very interconnected and all very tied, you know, back to the source of the wound, which is really ultimately my parents' divorce and my mom's infidelity, but, um, yeah, ultimately just feeling like.

Yeah, I am not enough. I think in regards to my mom, it's kind of this, like, I am not, I am not enough, or I am not worthy of you sacrificing your own happiness for me. Um, and then in regards to my relationship with men, I am not beautiful enough and that's why you have to go elsewhere. And so, yeah, just a lot of lies that, you know, when the devil is working can appear very true.

Yeah. Wow. And I know before the show, we were talking about another episode, uh, on our podcast and you related a lot to the idea that you're a gift, a gift that's not worth giving or not worth keeping which man, it just like strikes to the core for, for so many I know for me too. Yeah. And I think when I heard that, the way that, that lie kind of manifested in my mind was.

that I can kind of on the surface be very charming or attractive. And then once someone really knows the real me or knows, knows what I've been through or knows what's under the surface, kind of like the opposite of like a fine wine, getting better with time. It's kind of like, oh, I'm, I think I'm quite the opposite of that.

And really the more someone could know me and really know what I struggle with or what I wrestle with. Yeah. Actually people will leave or people will not find it worthy and yeah. Kinda like dip out. Yeah. And then what we do with that often is that we tend to start controlling again, that controlling what people see.

Right, because we think, oh gosh, I, if I, like you said, if I show them the real me, then they're not gonna wanna stay around. So I'm gonna create a version of me that I think that they want, that will make them stay and stay faithful. Right. And that never works says it. It doesn't know. It does not. No let's yeah.

I understand why we tried that, but it's, doesn't, doesn't where we think it will work, but it, it just doesn't and ends up leading to maybe a false sense of intimacy. And it's basically building, you know, house on, on lies, which is just so fragile and eventually will fall. Right? Yeah. So true. Let's go to healthy coping and healing.

So what, yeah. What does that look like? You mentioned therapy and obviously your faith is a big part of that, but elaborate if you would, on a few things that have really helped you cope. And heal the most. Yeah, I think really first and foremost, my faith is the most important thing in my life. Um, in my relationship with Jesus, uh, really specifically through the sacraments, I go to daily mass and pray a holy hour every day.

And that is, you know, I think some people see it as like, oh, you were like, you're so holy. And it's actually like, you don't know how much I need it. like, it is a necessity. And it's not something that yeah. Is like out of pride. It's out of like a real profound humility of, I need the grace of Jesus in the Eucharist and my daily prayer to, yeah, really.

I just need it. So I would, and Jesus is so faithful. He shows up every day and gives me the grace that I need and has been healing so much in my heart, in my mind, my body. Yeah, just immense healing over. However, however long. Um, and then, yeah, I would say my sister and really, I think in general, I am starting to now just recognize the importance of community.

I think that so many of the lies that we hear we assume are either just how we are, or they are our fault, or we are alone in that. And we feel very isolated. And so I just went on a life giving wounds retreat last weekend. And so essentially it, it was a healing retreat for adult children of divorced parents and to have the community of people who have gone through what you've been through and who feel the same way.

Coupled with listening, listening to the restored podcast has just been really, really huge for me. And then having my sister who's gone through what I've gone through. Just not feeling alone in it is just more important than I thought it was. And then, yeah, finally I think therapy has been. Very beneficial.

I think therapy is one of those things where you kind of question like, does it really help? And then over time you look back and you are just living differently and you have more of an ability to really question why you are doing what you're doing or you're believing what you're believing and just, yeah.

Really sharing about your life with someone who is a professional. And then who also, um, is just kind of like a third party, not a family, a family member or friend. Who's really gonna kind of tell you what you wanna hear. It's more of just a very necessary, yeah. Person who's been trained to really identify why our behaviors are the way that they are.

So those three things, I think kind of. Yeah. Maybe in that order have been really instrumental in my healing to get me to where I am now. Love it. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people are opposed to counseling. Like, oh, I don't think it'll work. Or, you know, just, it's a difficult thing to go through. So they may kind of shy away from that.

I heard a Navy seal once they, you know, big, tough, like alpha male Navy seal Jocko, willing. I don't know if you've heard of him, but yeah, he, he was like kind of saw counseling as like this weak thing to do, especially a seal it's like super tough too. But he said it helped him to understand that a psychologist, a counselor is just a mechanic for your brain.

so true. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I like one of the things, you know, even if there's not this like huge immense turnaround, cuz a lot of the things in your life you'd already been going down that path. And now this is an additional tool for you to continue to heal and feel whole again, which is awesome. One of the things, uh, it's not a perfect analogy, but if you think of like your car, uh, the more you understand about your car and how it works and what can go wrong and all those things and try to get it to work properly, by bringing it to someone who knows what they're doing, uh, the better your car will function and the better it will work for you.

And so the same, I think is true for us in life. It's like the more. Even just on the understanding level, counseling is so helpful for that. It's like, okay, you make way more sense to yourself. Mm-hmm and that alone, hopefully, you know, there's more than just that. Hopefully there are some real changes in the way that you feel.

If you're experiencing symptoms like anxiety, depression, hopefully you can lessen those, learn to manage them or even get rid of them altogether. Which is awesome. If you can, even just the understanding piece I think is so helpful and I've been through five, six years of counseling myself, so I can say the same.

And, um, at first it wasn't something that I, I thought would be effective. I, you know, would basically just not open up to the counselor was when I was younger. Cuz my parents suffered when I was 11 and so went to counseling then, but then eventually through the years, especially in my teens, I realized, man, this is, this could be really helpful.

So yeah. I love it. But yeah, I'm mechanic for your brain. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. So true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Going back to what you said about God's grace. So anyone listening, who isn't familiar with that, I just wanna explain a little bit, you've heard me talk about this on this show before grace is just God's life in our souls and one there's.

It has a few different functions. One of them is that it gives us the strength to do good and avoid evil. So it gives the ability to, to recognize good and to see good and to choose it and, and to do that thing. So this, and like the secular world, we call that good habits really, but it also heals nature.

Like it, it has the ability to, to heal us in, in ways that we can't even maybe sense or experience, but it, it, it can do that, like kind of like a medicine that you would take for a disease maybe that you can't see, or maybe there's not a lot of symptoms for, but you know, is there, that's kind of how grace works in our souls.

And so it's so important in the healing process, especially on a spiritual level, when we're talking about healing, our relationship with God to have God's life in our souls so that we can do good, avoid evil, but also heal ourselves on, on a, in a very deep, deep way. And there's so much more that can be said there, but those are just some starting points that are helpful to, to underst.

we're always a work in progress. Right. You're still in path of healing. I am too. You've made a lot of progress though. Mm-hmm so I'm just curious what's life, like now, compared to what it was like before contrast that if you would. Yeah. So essentially, um, now, so kind of going through that reversion, I was in college and yeah, just really kind of like living the party scene.

And so after spending that summer away, I came back and was really, I guess, kind of living like a double life where during the week I was still, I w I started going to daily mass and praying, and then on the weekends would still kind of go out with all my friends. And just over time, I started to sense, you know, just like the peace and the freedom and the joy during the week versus, you know, just a profound lack of peace and yeah, just real.

Despair and lack of joy on the weekends, just, you know, sensing myself, trying to kind of cope or fill this void or numb the ways that I was feeling from the effects of my parents' divorce. So now yeah, I am working for Bella. It's a very, pro-life OB GYN, women's health family practice clinic, and it's a lot more mission based where we will serve anyone that walks in our door and yeah, just a very life giving ministry.

And so I'm a nurse doing that. And then, yeah, just really spending a lot of time in prayer and at mass. And then also just giving him my extra time. I I'd kind of mentioned earlier, but, uh, this, the passion in my heart for the battle against sexual impurity and starting to volunteer at a home for women, who've been rescued out to sex trafficking, which, you know, those are all kind of.

Related in one, one way or another. And so, yeah, just really the, the Lord has done immense work in my heart to kind of bring me to a place where I think the ways that I cope is really by going to him now and of giving myself of myself in other ways. Beautiful. Love it. Yeah. And that's a big turnaround from yeah.

Someone maybe who was wearing a mask, uh, putting up a facade of things, everything being okay. And just really like hurting deep inside and even your vulnerability of coming on the show. And I know you've talked to people about your story. That is, that's a big change in itself, cuz I know for me, uh, for a while I didn't really wanna talk about it.

So it, it's amazing to see the progress you've made and you know, hearing your story and then also how you're still working on it. Cause we, I say this all the time on the show, but healing's an infinite. It's like fitness. Like you never wake up one day. At least I don't I wish, yeah. I'm like, okay, I've reached the pinnacle of fitness.

I never need to work out again or eat healthy. No, of course you need to continue to maintain it. So healing, I think in a lot of ways is like that though. We can't really turn a corner and find some real closure. So, so that's, uh, amazing. And thanks for sharing. I, I think it's really encouraging for people who are in a tough spot right now to know, okay.

There's hope mm-hmm, like there's light at the end of the tunnel. You don't need to stay where you are. You don't need to feel the way you do forever. And it doesn't certainly doesn't define you because as one of the counselors we interviewed on the show said that, you know how you're feeling. It, it just, how, how you are.

It's not who you are. It doesn't say it doesn't dictate your identity. So your brokenness is just something you have to deal with. Um, but it's not who you are. And so, thanks for sharing that. I wanna go back to something you said before. I think it's worth touching on cuz I think there's a lot of people in this situation.

Uh, people like us tend to be loaners. Mm-hmm we tend to just kind of go it alone. We don't want to, uh, like I said, open up or rely to heavily on other people because we've learned, especially with one or both parents that people really aren't reliable. And there's some truth to that. I would, it would be silly for me to say there's no truth to that.

There's some truth to that, but there certainly are people who can be trusted. There are good people, you can develop good friendships. You can even have a great marriage. It does take work. It takes time, but it's hard for us to believe that I, I still struggle with that at times, even in my own marriage, but I'm always proved wrong when I try to trust, especially, you know, in my marriage and things like that.

And it is possible that you'll be burned again, totally open to that. But what I'm getting at here is that your realization that community is important. That's profound. Because I know you and I are both high functioning people. I can tell mm-hmm and yeah. You probably try to do a million things in a day.

Is that fair? Yes. Yeah. You like checklists? Yes. Yeah. I could afford to rest a little more so. Yeah. Yeah, same. So I like too much and I don't have enough leisure and all those things. So anyway, we kind of look at our brokenness as a problem to be solved, which in a way it is, but we tend to think, okay, the way that I solve my brokenness is by doing this checklist of items.

And there's some truth to that. Cuz you go to counseling. Typically what you'll get is homework things you should do good. That that's part of it. Um, but what we're learning, especially just through the stories we're hearing and, and the experts we brought on the show is that so much of healing is relat.

Mm, mm-hmm because for the basic reason that so many of the wounds that we've experienced come from our relationships. And so you've already said that a few times, how just the devil's attacking you kind of where you're weak. And so the way the antidote in so many, um, situations is experiencing authentic love in genuine friendships and beautiful romantic relationships and things like that.

But it it's difficult. Isn't it, to, to turn that corner and be like, I need people . Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I remember one of my friends telling me that once is so much of healing is necessary. It needs to happen through relationships with people. And I still remember like holding onto this, you know, kind of one thing where I'm like, I don't want the healing to have to come through me sharing that with someone.

And then in my most recent like romantic relationship, I. I remember sharing that with him and the immense healing that came from it. And I remember thinking back to my, it was a priest friend of mine who had said that, and I was like, wow, you know, he's right. And kind of, depending on how people respond, it can be immensely healing or immensely hurtful.

And so, you know, there needs yeah. Right. But yeah, just the healing that came from that was huge. And so, yeah, I totally agree. So much healing has to come through relationships with others and it's scary, but it is so worth it. Yeah. Yeah. And it can be done gradually over time. And that's one of the things that we recommend.

It's like, don't just open your heart up to anyone. Fully, you know, all at once, do it over time. Find some people, ideally a group of people that you can trust that you can have these vulnerable conversations with, who can really know the real you, not the one that you just present to the world on Instagram.

And so it's so important to have that group of people, but, but it can happen over time. And I think knowing that takes a lot of the scariness out of it, it's like, okay, I don't need to go, but at some point you might have to have a more vulnerable conversation to open up about things. And typically people don't do that first.

You're gonna have to do it first. And then when you do it first, they're probably gonna open up about the, the, their own things in life that have, uh, really hurt them. And. Lots of good stuff there. Speaking of relationships, let's talk about how your parents divorced the breakdown of their marriage, the infidelity, all that has affected your relationships.

We already talked about quite a bit, but yeah. Elaborate if you would on that. Yeah. Well, um, one thing that was very good for me to hear when I went on this retreat, the last weekend was that it is very common for adult children, a divorced parents to have to go through some failed relationships before they find the right one or the one essentially marriage.

And that was very providential timing for me. I just recently went through a broken engagement. And so, um, essentially there, I think were probably a lot of factors, but yeah, ultimately it kind of boiled down to both of us really needing more healing. And I can definitely acknowledge that these last five months for me have been.

yeah, just an immense season of suffering in a way that I know that I am going through some very deep and intense healing. So essentially when kind of right before we got engaged, my boyfriend at the time opened up and shared some things that he was just being more vulnerable about with me and. It really uncovered a lot of things that I honestly didn't even know were there.

So for me, this is very providential timing for me to be able to speak into this now, after all of this has happened, just because yeah, there was a lot of, of wounds that were brought to the surface that I truly did not know were there or needed to be healed. I think kind of in my mind, I had found this very good and holy Catholic man.

And once again, I was safe and I think that I had kind of thought these, these sins that had once really affected me would never affect me again. And then when it was even just like touched on, not nearly in as dramatic of a way as my parents, it just yeah. Brought a lot to the surface. And so it really manifested in like a lack of trust and yeah, just certain ways where I think having to deal with a lot of the trauma that I went through.

Was just really difficult to go through in the midst of COVID and an engagement and just, yeah. Some healing on my end, some healing on his end. So yeah, it was just huge for me to go on that retreat and hear that some people have to go through some broken relationships and then also followed by, I remember Dan who led the retreat multiple times telling me that I am capable and I am worthy of a good and holy marriage.

And I was like, whoa, like, it's amazing how, you know, I can know that in my mind, but to hear it and to actually believe it is so different. And so yeah, it has, it is still affecting my relationships. I think it's kind of one of those things where going through therapy and the community and all those things are going to be just so necessary when I enter.

Into another relationship, just because, yeah, I think in a certain sense, it will be a little bit more, I think if you've gone through something like a, with your parents having been divorced, it's going to be a little bit more challenging, but in a way where it is more rewarding. I dunno how to explain it.

I think if you are really wounded in an area, there is a desire and a tendency for a deeper love. I think sometimes about my friends whose parents weren't divorced and I, in a way I am a little bit envious of, you know, the lack of trauma or the lack of wounds that they have. But in a certain sense, I also know how much I value truth, how much I value fidelity, how much I value, very real and pure love.

And I don't think it would be the same if I hadn't gone through what I'd been through. So even though it is difficult, there's so much hope. And I think a greater capacity for a deeper love, if you really kind of embrace. What you've been through and embrace who you are and embrace the healing and yeah.

Just allow the therapy to work, the grace to work the, all the things. Yeah. There's just so much hope on the other side. Beautiful. Wow. That's so hard. It's a lot to go through. We know a bunch of couples sexually recently. Who've broken off engagements and I think it's S heroic. Mm-hmm, , it's difficult. , even embarrassing.

I'm sure. In, in some ways, which is really hard to, to deal with. Yeah. I think I am maybe the only, I guess at times, but I, I was gonna say, I think I'm kind of an exception. I think a lot of people ask me about it being embarrassing. And I don't know. I, I think it's just grace because I'm like, I, I don't find it embarrassing.

I think I find. Painful. And there's a lot of suffering, but for some reason, I, I don't think I've really felt embarrassed in any of it. And I, I, I think it's just pure grace. It's gotta be or hope or something. I don't know. But yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think, um, if you made, you know, people who do that, who are making that right decision, there's nothing to be embarrassed about.

Mm-hmm I think it's just social pressure, whatever. Right. I think, oh gosh, I set the date and maybe I sent invitations out or save the dates or did all this stuff to prepare for it. And I'm, you know, walking ending this, it can be really hard. Some people don't do that. And I've known people in that situation where they, because they're so invested, they don't, and that is so damaging and it can lead to a scary place.

Really happy for you. And I know that's might sound say, happy you went through that really difficult thing, but no, no, it's it's yeah. That's such a good thing that you guys kind of recognize that and did what was necessary, even though it was really, really hard I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. And that was something I am grateful to have been able to bring up just because I have also noticed how prevalent it is.

And it is something where, you know, I think that people do need to know that they aren't alone in it and know that yeah. It can be such a blessing and can be such a good thing. And yeah. So I'm just happy to be able to share and help people to know that. Yeah, it is, it takes a lot of courage and a lot of bravery and I think the payoff will be huge.

Yeah. Yeah. And just relying on good people. I'm sure you've had a lot, you had a lot of people in your corner who are kind of speaking into and helping you, cuz it can be so hard to make those decisions. When you're in the, kind of the thick of that. So mm-hmm, so good. And I, I love what Dan said on the retreat that you are capable of it.

And yeah, I would echo that to you and to everyone too. I think everyone needs to hear that. And, uh, what you said too is, uh, we're probably gonna struggle more than most people. Which stinks yeah, I know. Right. But, um, but it's true. And I think it's important. I'm glad you brought that up because if we expect that, then it won't be a surprise and we can even prepare and plan for it.

Like, okay, what am I gonna do when. You know, these, my relationships get hard and it's really difficult for me to be vulnerable, to trust when it's, you know, something comes up a conversation where it triggers me about something in my past, like, what am I gonna do? Who am I gonna have in my corner? Whether that's a therapist or a spiritual director or a group of friends or a community, something like that.

I, I think it's really important to acknowledge that. So thanks for, for saying that. And I want to go back to one other thing you said too, like the unaware, this is so common. Mm-hmm for so many of us, it's like, we don't totally understand or appreciate, I don't know if appreciates the right word, but we don't totally grasp how damaging the things that we've been through.

Especially when our family breaks apart. We don't totally understand how that will affect us in years to follow. And you might know this already, but the research clearly shows that the biggest area of our lives that are impacted when we come from our divorce family is our own relationships hands on.

And so. Yeah, it's normal. If you're listening, if you're listening right now and you are in a relationship and you're struggling, or you've been in relationships like that, just know you're normal. It's not fun to be there, but it's not unusual. And the research backs it up as well. And all these stories that we're hearing, just align perfectly with it to, uh, even though it's a sad thing, it's a true thing.

Yep. I agree. Katie, what would you say to someone listening right now who feels really broken? Who feels stuck in life? Who just, maybe they're even at the point of despair, just like, I, I just feel so broken. I don't know what to do about it. What, what words of encouragement especially would you give to them?

I think that this is something that I have needed to hear in the past and would just want people to know just how deeply loved they are and kind of what I was sharing earlier. But yeah, really like, because of the wounds that you experienced, you are really able to invite Christ into those places and they're going to be far more beautiful and glorious than if you hadn't experienced them in the first place.

Um, one of my favorite ways that the Lord works is by bringing far more beautiful things out of something that is seemingly broken or seemingly ugly. Um, that's just one of the ways that he glorifies himself the most. Yeah. Just essentially there's so much hope. And you know, those lies that when you can identify the lies that you hear in your head that are not true, um, that you are loved and that you are enough and that you are worthy.

I think that, yeah. I was so vulnerable in my story, just because I do feel like it, you know, really understanding the, the depth of the, the evil that was there and the ugliness and the, all the things really is a true Testament to the glory of God and the ways that he can really redeem things. And so, yeah, essentially, there's like a very good quote that you are not the sum of your faults and failures.

Um, you're the sum of the father's love for you, which really is just so powerful because I think very often we can identify who we are based on what has happened to us or what we've experienced. And that's just simply not true. And there's just so much hope and just know that I am praying for you and that I am here for you.

If anyone would like to have a conversation or. Yeah, like reach out on either email, Instagram, Facebook, however, um, I'm just so happy to share more. Um, I know that I'm sorry. I, it was a little bit Jesus heavy and that is solely because he is. The most important thing in my life. And if you want to know more about him, I am happy to have a conversation.

I can always like try my best to filter, you know, and just meet you where you're at, but I just deeply care about you, whoever you are, wherever you are, I am here for you and yeah. Would love to support you in any way that you need. Beautiful. Thank you so much for your time for your vulnerability. Uh, I know it's been so helpful for a lot of people.

Um, me included, so thank you for, for being here and yeah. Really grateful that you took the time to do it. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for allowing me to share. It's been very, yeah. Healing and helpful for me too.

If you wanna get in touch with Katie, you can actually email her. Her email is Katie. So K a T I E. And then her last name, um, Mira check, which is spelled M R O C. Z K hotmail.com. We'll throw this in the show notes for you so you can just copy it and email her. And she wanted you to know that yes, Hotmail does still exist.

You could also DM her on Instagram and her handle is at K and then her last name, Mira check, which is M R O C. Z E K the number 12, and then the number 26, 12 26. Again, we'll throw that in the show notes to make it easy for you guys. My biggest takeaway from this episode is just how devastating it is when your mom or your dad is unfaithful.

It's something that we need to talk about more on this show, to be honest with you, because so many of us have been impacted by this just like Katie and the effects of it are huge, huge. It especially makes trusting and loving so much more difficult because in the back of our minds, we're thinking, oh gosh, is this person gonna be unfaithful to me?

And so real healing is needed. There is Katie articulated so well, especially if you wanna love well and build healthy relationships and even a great marriage. And so a question for you to think about if your mom or dad had an affair, how has that affected you, especially in your own relationships, give this some thought, because if you start to recognize how it has affected you, then you could begin to work against it.

You could begin to heal and to grow so that this thing doesn't have power over you. If you wanna share your story with us, we would love to hear it. Some of the benefits of sharing your story first, reflecting on your story is actually healing on a neuro biological level. It actually makes your brain healthier, further writing your story as you would do.

If you shared it with us, is, is also healing. Studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed, less anxious, healthier, and happier, pretty amazing. And sharing your story, not just thinking about it, not just writing it down, but also sharing it with someone.

Verbally or through writing is also healing on a neurobiological level. It makes you healthier. And then lastly, sharing your story also gives hope and some guidance to people who maybe are struggling. They're going through the same things or similar things that you went through, and you can just offer them some hope and maybe some advice on how to get through it.

The way that you did to submit your story. It just takes three easy steps. Go to restored ministry.com/story. Again, restored ministry.com, ministry singular slash story. You'll just fill out a form that guides you in writing a concise version of your story. And then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous blog article.

And so we'd love to hear your story. Share your story today at restored ministry dot. Slash story. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 49. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful at all, please subscribe and share this podcast with someone you know, who really needs to hear this stuff.

Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#048: Fear Became Reality: I Am Just Like My Father | Bart Schuchts

As a boy, Bart Schuchts thought his family was normal. But in reality, it was very broken. When he was five years old, his dad left after cheating on his mom. He remembers his mom crying herself to sleep at night. Seeing the devastation his dad left, he swore to never be like him. 

But in college, his worst fear came true. Sleeping around and using women, he realized: “I am just like my father.” Thankfully, his story didn’t end there. In this episode, he shares:

• How he overcame his anger, lust, depression, despair, and self-hate

• The hurt he felt from opening up to the wrong people about his struggles

• How he learned to have compassion for his father and even forgive him

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

So often our families look normal on the outside, but on the inside, they're very broken. And that was the experience of my guest today. As a little boy, he honestly thought his family was normal, but eventually it came to light that his dad was cheating on his mom. And following that affair, his dad just left the house, abandoning them.

When my guests were just five years old and he remembers his mom crying herself to sleep at night and seeing all this devastation, he swore never to be like his father. He swore never to hurt women the way that his dad had hurt his mom. But years later in college, his worst fear came true after sleeping around and using women, it hit him in the face.

I am just like my father. Now though he was tempted to despair. Thankfully, his story didn't end there. Eventually he turned everything around, but he shares how he struggled with anger, loss, depression, despair, and even self hate, but eventually was able to overcome those things. He talks about how opening up to the wrong people in his life was actually really harmful.

He explains what it felt like for the wound, from his dad's affair to be ripped open again. When his girlfriend cheated on him, he opens up about how eventually he learned to have compassion on his father and even forgive him to the point where they were able to rebuild their relationship. And in spite of all his brokenness, he talks about how he's been able to build a beautiful marriage, be a father and help people heal through his nonprofit.

Now I'm so excited to share this episode with you. It's such a powerful episode, such an inspiring story that honestly left me speechless at time. This man has suffered. He's made mistakes. He's looked despair right in the eye, but he's come through the other side. And so there's so much hope in this episode, especially if you feel.

Like he did, if you feel like giving up. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 40 Aiden. Today. I speak with Bart. Shoot. Bart is the founder of church on fire.

He has more than 28 years of ministry experience and has been associated with a John Pauli healing center since its inception. Following a desperate plea to God while in an NFL locker room, which you'll hear about in this show, Bart had a powerful encounter with God's love. He is a regular speaker with the John Pauli healing center and has been instrumental in the center's growth.

He's been married for over 25 years and has four children. Now guys, I'll be honest with you. Bart is so real. He's probably one of the most real men I've ever met. It's so inspiring. It's so helpful to talk with someone who's so real now, as you heard, he is a Catholic Christian. And so we talk about God, we talk about faith and if that's not you, if you're not open to anything like that, my challenge to you is this, listen with an open mind.

He's not here to force you into a relationship with God. He's just here to share his story. And I know that even if you don't believe in God, even if you're not open to that right now, you will get something out of this episode. In fact, I know you will relate to his experience a ton. If you don't want anything to do with God.

In fact, if you hate God, I know you're gonna relate to him. Here's my conversation with Bart shoots.

Hey, Bart, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for making time for this. Yeah, Joey, thanks for having me like so many people listening right now. Uh, you come from a broken home. Tell us about that. What happened and how did that impact. Oh, yeah. Joey, I don't know what you're talking about, man. I came from a perfect family.

like all of us, right? Yeah. Uh, you know, it's funny. I, I, I laugh about that, but you know, we actually believe that, which is crazy. I think next to the word deception was our family picture. If you Google that you're on there. Yeah. there we're, but you know, it is how it appeared growing up. My mom and dad, you know, had had seven kids and, uh, I was the second youngest.

Uh, my dad upper middle class worked. IBM, good. Solid family. Went to church, you know, just kind of your, from the outside, everything looked great. And yet when I was two, uh, as the story goes, uh, my mom found out that my father was having an affair and it just shattered everything. And by the time I was five, my dad walked out the door and, uh, we moved from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Down to Miami, which the way I would survive my life at that point was the life of survival. Uh, like you said, in a broken home, just not a lot of people on my street were from broken homes. I was one of the only, which added to my problem. And, uh, it just wasn't as prevalent, you know? And, and, uh, I remember I would go over to my friend's house, you know, and I'd watch them interacting with their fathers.

And I would just look at that and I'd be like, gosh, I don't even know what that's like, you know, mm-hmm . And, uh, I, I would go into my room, my mom's room at night as a little boy, and I'd watch her cry herself to sleep. And, uh, I just grew this deep anger and deep hatred for my father. And yeah. So it's just, it's, it's definitely, it's affected my entire life.

You know, I grew up with a lot of anger, a lot of he hatred, uh, depressed. Uh, disillusioned, just struggling with despair, feeling like I would never really have what I desire because I was a little boy. I desired dad, you know, and desire walked out the door when I was five years old. And, uh, yeah, that, that deeply impacted me and it affected my entire life.

And for most of my life dealt with anger, you know, uh, I wouldn't even say dealt with anger. I just lived out of anger. Yeah. I just kinda angry at the world, you know, just, uh, feeling alone and if it's gonna get done, it's up to me, you know, just all kind of things and just constantly striving, uh, which, which worked as a fuel in my dreams of being a professional athlete, but it, it was destructive, you know, just beating.

At my interior of my heart. Wow. Yeah. And on that last point, that's, um, kind of tricky, a tricky situation because you, in one way, like you said, it worked and so you were affirmed in continuing that behavior because, um, did you played professional sports, right? You played in football, um, in the NFL. Yeah.

Well, I played, uh, college football at Florida state and then had a chance at my childhood dream of playing in the NFL, uh, when I was with the Tempe Buccaneers. Wow. Uh, in camp is actually when my life took a major detour, uh, for the better, but it was the end of that dream in the beginnings of other things.

But yeah, so, and then I played arena football, which is, uh, one is, uh, not heard of arena football. The way I describe it is if you. Get beer thrown on you and make no money play arena football. it was indoor professional football. And I did that for four years. Okay. Wow, incredible. So you, you reached a very high level in the athletic world, so, you know, it's, it's interesting to see like your idea of like self sufficiency and just pushing yourself and living out of that drive that anger that you felt, um, it worked in a way.

And so that was probably confusing, um, in other areas of your life, where it was destructive. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, you know, it, it, by, by outward appearance, you know, not much like my family growing up by outward appearance, things looked great. You know, I remember I was at Florida state. People would say, gosh, you have it made, you know, you're playing in front of whatever.

We had 70,000, 80,000 fans. And, you know, back when I played 1987, uh, we finished 11 and one my senior year. Uh, wow. We finished number two in the country and you know, we played major games, you know, national TV all the time, big, big time games, big time moments. And yeah, from the outside, everything looked great.

And, and I was, I was putting on that facade, you know, and, and, uh, everything looked great. But what people didn't know is when I was alone in my room, And, uh, the, the self hatred, the shame, the, the depression, anger, fear, disillusionment to life, all the things that were there when I was a little kid, uh, would pop up when I was alone in my room, you know, kind of like ping pong balls.

If you tried to hold a ping pong ball, the water it's gonna come up, you know, mm-hmm and, uh, these things would pop up, but I would just ignore them and just go, no, man. And I would just go get busy. And, uh, just living the, the quote college life, you know, what everyone told me was the best years of your life, you know?

And I'd be like secretly in my heart. I'd be like, if these are the best years of my life, I don't know if I wanna live anymore. Cause I'm miserable. You know, that was, that was my interior reality externally. That's not what people saw. Wow. And that's so common. We've seen that a lot with people, especially who come from broken families, like.

On the exterior, we can actually be very successful people like high functioning, good in school, good at our jobs. Um, but like you said, on the insight, we're just like falling apart and, uh, and it's, unless you articulate that or, you know, bring someone in, be vulnerable. It's really hard to, for people to understand that.

Cuz they see things going well for you and, and, and how do you share it? You know, I remember several times going to some of my best friends, you know, uh, some of my teammates, I remember having some, you know, some deep open conversation, at least for what I was capable of at that time. And I remember going to one of my friends and going, man, don't you don't you ever just feel, you know, guilty or, or don't you ever just feel bad?

You know, like, you know, cuz I was just living this lost life and don't you ever feel depressed, you know? And he'd be like, he'd looked at me like what is wrong with you, man? What is wrong with you? So it's like, didn't exactly encourage me. To share it more, you know, like fortunately I had a brother, you know, my brother, Bob, who, uh, was, is, was a psychologist.

And so every once in a blue moon, I would give him a call, but honestly, I didn't wanna call him because he would always tell me about religion or, you know, God, or coming back to the church and be like, yeah, great, Bob, that's you a man. But I, I didn't, I didn't want to hear that. I wasn't in the place to hear that.

And, uh, I mean, he, he, he would give me great advice and great counsel as well, but that was interiorly of me. I was like, you know, I, I was hesitant to reach out, um, because I didn't want to hear that. I just wanted someone to gimme some answers and help me right now. Uh, in my, in my, I. Pain. And, uh, and, and my brother, Bob did help me a lot, but I, I just didn't reach out because I'm concerned that someone, everyone had an agenda, you know, they either were gonna tell me I was weird or there's something wrong with me.

Hey, get your act together, tough it up, you know, or, or, you know, try to get me to come to church or, or whatever, and just, I didn't really know of a place that I could just go and just go, Hey, I don't know what's going on inside of me. Can you just genuinely help me? yeah, man. I can relate so much with that.

I remember. Yeah. Like freshman in college, I was dating a girl and I just was going through a really rough time. Like for months I just felt numb. Just felt nothing. Mm-hmm , mm-hmm and dealt with anxiety and depression during that time. And I just didn't know how to articulate it to. I literally couldn't find the words and, and I'm, I was so afraid that if I opened up to her, she just wouldn't handle it.

Well, even though she was a great girl, um, she just came from such a different background, like a great family. She was like a very healthy and whole person. And I just felt like she wouldn't understand. And I didn't know how to go about that. And I, I really struggled to even understand what was going on inside of me.

Like you articulated so well, right there. So, yeah, man, it's a tough spot to be in. Ah, it's a tough spot. I remember a couple relationships that I had, you know, girls that I, you know, I loved, you know, one of 'em I thought I was gonna marry her and you know, we were close and, and I remember sharing some of this depression and, and some of these places, interiorly and boy, she just, she didn't know what to do, you know?

Yeah. She just went through, you know, and, uh, I think it was the beginning of the end of our relationship. She eventually cheated on me, you know? And then I had another girl, you know, it was just kind of infa. It was infatuation. I wouldn't even say it was love, you know, it was infatuation and a few months in, you know, I shared with her, you know, cause I just, I felt like, okay, here's some people I could share.

What's really going on inside of me. And I just, I shattered her image of me, you know, this exterior image and it wasn't long after that, you know, she says I've never loved somebody and hated somebody so much in my life. And then the relationship ended and I'm like, okay, I can't share this with anybody.

They're gonna reject me. Which was really the, the core of my wound anyway, you know, which I wasn't really in touch with, but abandonment, my father walked out the door, so just kept playing over and over and over again. I felt like I was in a trap. I didn't know how to get out. Wow. That is that's insane.

Honestly, it's so, so hard to go through because like you said, she was that that girl was more in love with the idea of you than you. Exactly. And so you learned that, okay. I'm just gonna be what people want me to be, what they need me to be. And that is so common. We see that left and right with people, young people come from broken saying it.

Yep. Good way of saying it. Yep. I want to go to what you said about the girl kind of withdrawing and then cheating on you. That is so devastating, especially cuz you saw that growing up, like you were cheated on in a very real way. Yeah. As a boy. Right? Talk about that. If you would, how did that impact you?

Yeah. Boy sh devastated me, you know, you know, here, I think I'm I found the one, you know, this is my freshman year of college. Like I, I found the one, you know, my intentions going into college was, you know, I wanna be a, I wanna be a good guy. You know, I wanna, I wanna reach my dreams. I wanna get married one day, have a family.

I wanna, you know, those were my intentions and, and honestly, a lot of it was I wanna be different than my dad. You know? Yeah. I don't wanna be like my dad, you know, in fact, I, I made a vow, which I didn't know much about, but, you know, I made a vow. I will never be like my father. I will never hurt a woman the way my father hurt my mother, you know?

And so I, I was determined. I'm gonna be different, you know, I'm not gonna be like that, man. You know, I'm gonna be different. And so here was, man, I meet this girl. I'm like, okay, here we are. You know, finally I met my wife. My first year of college is amazing. And, uh, and like I said, you know, a few months in, uh, I start disclosing some of these darker secret places in my heart and this place of depression and pain and, and, you know, she didn't know what to do with it, but she didn't say anything.

You know, she just kind of acted like it was normal, but I could feel her distance. I could feel, you know, that. And then the next year, so we went through summer and I was trying to get ahold of her and she wasn't returning my calls. I'm like, what's going. And then, uh, the next year I go back for, for football camp, we had to be there two weeks before all the other students for our practices.

And, uh, she was supposed to be back cuz she was a swimmer in college and, and uh, she wasn't back. And so I kept trying to call she wasn't returning my calls. Finally, she returns my call. And she says, yeah, I'm not coming back to school. And I found somebody else. I'm like, what do you mean? You found someone else?

You know, it's like, what are you talking about? And man, I couldn't, I couldn't function. I literally, I couldn't eat. I mean, for at least a week it felt like two and my emotions, my, it was just nodded up. I had stomach aches, you know, I was just, it was so deep. I was like, what the heck? And then I couldn't function.

And then football, I wasn't doing well. And it just was, you know, I, I kept making bad plays and it was, it was rough. It just, it impacted everything. And it just sunk me into a deep depression and it was like, oh my gosh. You know, I don't know if, I don't know if I can ever find wild. I don't know if I'll ever find what I'm looking for.

You know? And I wasn't connecting any of this to what happened when I was a kid or my upbringing. I wouldn't, you know, and I, I said, my upbringing. I had a great family. My mom, you know, she was amazing. She just loved us. She, she was, she provided all she could, but she couldn't make up for the Roy, you know, of, of the absence of my father who walked out when I was five.

But yeah, it just, all this stuff was just hitting those deeper places. I had no idea. I was just, I was just spiraling. I, I had no idea. And then I just had to toughen up, you know, and I learned from playing football, I was like, oh, you get you fall down, you get back up, you know? Okay. I'll, I'll get back up.

And so, you know, within a couple weeks, I'm back and I'm performing and you know, all the things you said before, you know, I'm just externally, I'm doing fine now. I'm doing good. You know, I'm experiencing some success, you know, but interiorly, gosh, train. Yeah. Uh, I hear you. It's just heart wrenching to, to hear and just I'm sure to think back that younger version of you just going through all that it, yeah, it just, it's so hard.

And that's so interesting. What you said about not connecting with connecting your current struggles or the struggles you were facing then with then with the, the issues and your past with your broken family. That's super common. We've seen like that lack of awareness, uh, seems to be everywhere and it takes some maturity.

It takes some awareness. Like I mentioned to really connect the dots. I'm just curious. Why, why is that? And how can someone. Go through that process who maybe is in that place of like, not, they're not aware. Um, how do they come to that awareness? Yeah, boy, that's a good question. I'm not sure I'm not, I don't know if there's a blueprint.

I mean, I sure. You know, it's, it's, um, I think it's a protective mechanism that we all have, you know, it's like we can, we can handle so much. And, and as people we're amazing, you know, our, our resiliency is, is amazing. You know, like some of the things that people gone through, I mean, makes, makes my story look like nothing.

And, uh, I mean, some of the things that I've heard over the years and some, you know, it's just like, oh my gosh, it's so painful. Just listen to, and I just think, you know, the, the way we're wired, the way we're built, you know, we're very resilient. You know, we can persevere, we can endure, we can, we can externally succeed and, and make things work for me.

It just all caught up to me. You know, it, it just, there just came a point. Like there was several times through college that I'd be like, okay, I gotta change, man. I gotta change. I didn't know how to change. I, I really did have change. I remember there was a time me and this, my friend, uh, he was an offensive lineman.

His nickname was peanut. He was a good old country boy, you know, from Georgia and big old boy. I mean, he was probably six, five by two 80, just massive built and wow, just a good old, good old boy and, uh, a good friend of mine. And I remember he and I one time, maybe that same year, maybe my freshman year of college, I don't remember.

I remember we were sitting out, you know, on a steps and, uh, he and I were having as deep a conversation as we were both capable at that time. Mm-hmm and I just, I was saying to him, I said, you know, I need to change, man. And he says, yep. Yep. and, uh, there was a leaf on the ground and, uh, I, I reached down and grabbed this leaf and I flipped it over.

I said, peanut, it's time, we turn over a new leaf. And he says, yep. Lasted about a month. That was, you know, that just typified my college years. I'm like, okay, I know I gotta change. I know I gotta change because after, after a few relationships ended, I, I came to the point of going love doesn't exist, you know, love doesn't exist.

And so I just lived for temple pleasure. Now I just walked away from everything I believed and valued and, and just gave up. I was so depressed and so discouraged. So disillusioned I there is gave up. And it was in that season and I would just feel guilty. And when I was alone in my room and full of shame and self hatred and all this stuff, and I was like, I gotta change.

And you know, I just didn't know how, honestly, I didn't know how until my senior year is like everything caught up to me and then it was like, oh gosh, okay. How do I change? You know, that, that, that, that was that work for me. You know? And I, I think for every one of us to answer your question, I just think that we each, we each have our own journeys, you know?

And the biggest thing I would say is never give up, never give up because, because there's gonna be answers, there are answers and, and you just have to keep persevering. And I knew that. And so I just kept going, you know, I, I, I, I, I entertained taking my life so many times and I was like, no, I'm not a quitter.

I'm not gonna do that. I'm never gonna quit. I'm gonna persevere. And, you know, little did I know, you know, that I would, I would make my way through it, but I, but I. Amazing. It's hard to, to know that in the moment. Right. Cause everything can just feel hopeless, but you're in a much better spot now. So yeah. I am curious what, what changed?

Like what happened? How did you eventually find healing? It sounds like it was a long journey, but, but what changed? Yeah. Yeah, it was, you know, and you know, through my four, actually five years of college, I, uh, I tried everything. Honestly. I tried everything. I mean, I got into positive mental attitude stuff and you know, and I'd put on this good, positive mental attitude and it worked, you know, I, I was able to succeed.

I would, uh, go to, you know, psychology. I tried, I tried everything I could think of, you know, relatively good things. I, I went to church a few times, you know, I, I, I would go and give it a shot and go to church. And that would last me about a week or a month, you know? And then I would go right back to my vomit, you know, by my vomit, as you know, after my freshman year, when I just gave up on love, it was just, it was just partying, womanizing, you know, just, just living.

Totally lost from who I really was. And just, it just totally just, I mean, a good guy externally, but just, just totally lost. So it was my senior year, you know, and I remember my dream was to play in the NFL. And so in the football field, I had some successes, ups and downs. Now it's my senior year and I'm starting on that team that I said eventually finished 11 and one number two in the country.

And I'm on track for my dream. And I'm like, this is great, you know? And, uh, got a bunch of friends and success and you know, the team's great, everything looks wonderful. First play of our second game. I got injured and I missed four games. And in that season I was confronted with my life and it had happened several times over the five years of my college journey.

But this one just feels like the last straw. And, um, I actually, I met this girl. And, uh, we're just talking at a, at a bar and, um, she we're hanging out for about 45 minutes, you know, or drinking and hanging out. And I had intentions, you know, and here we were, and, and she, uh, looks at me and she says, I hate you.

I'm like, what, well, what are you talking about? I mean, we just met, you know, and she says, not only do I hate you, my whole sorority hates you. And I was like, whoa, what do you mean? I mean, your sorority knows me. Yes. And then she mentions three girls. It is painful even to recall. I mean, this is probably 37 years ago, you know, and I, it's still painful.

And she says, you know, she mentions three girls. She says, because of you, each one of them tried to take their own lives and went, oh my God, you're kidding me. And I thought to myself, whoa, this isn't a game, man. And then what hit me? What hit me in that moment was, oh my gosh. I'm just like my father. You know, I made that vow.

I will never be like my father. I will never hurt a woman the way my father hurt my mother and I'm worse. And my self hatred man was just like, whew, all I just wanted to crawl under a rock and die. I didn't know what to say. I didn't know what to do. I just hated myself. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm a real jerk

And uh, and then this girl says to me, a beautiful girl, she says to me, besides I'm a Virgin, I was like, what? Tell me about this. I was intrigued. I was like, whoa. And I remembered back to when I was 18 years old. When I was in high school, I said to my buddies, when I get married, I wanna be a. And they, of course, you know, said that's a wonderful idea.

No, they laughed at me. They called me names. Uh, I mean, gosh, I will never say that again. Within a month of that, I had lost my virginity and then it, it, my story of the next six years, you know, uh, it caught up to me now and this girl says, I'm a Virgin. I'm like, oh my gosh. Wow. Is it possible? Like, is that even possible?

This girl obviously chose this, you know, like, is this even possible? And it just, it opened my eyes to like, hope. Like maybe my life could be different. Like maybe I can change. Maybe I really can change. Maybe I can marry someone. Maybe I can have a good marriage. Maybe I don't have to be like my father, maybe, maybe things can be different.

And, and that began a process. And then it was a few months later that I get invited to the Tempe buckers and as a free agent, which those listen to me, that just means, you know, you, you didn't get drafted. You were brought in, they, they paid you a little bit of money. And you have a chance to try out and make the team, but it's not a great chance, but I had a chance mm-hmm and so it was there, it was there in between practices, in the temp bay Buckner's locker room that my life radically changed.

And I don't know if you want me to go into that or not go into that, but that's, that's, that's what really happened. I needed something beyond myself. Uh, I think it's an alcoholics anonymous. They talk about a higher power. I needed something beyond myself to help me out of the pit that I was in. And I didn't know what it was.

I mean, I grew up with religion. I mean, I, I, I grew up, you know, my family went to church. I, I tried in college, but it, it, it, it wasn't clicking for me. It wasn't working. Uh, and it was there. It was there on the, on the, actually on the toilet. in the locker room, the Tempe Buccaneers on the, on the doorstep of my dream that I just came to an awakening and just said, uh, God, I don't even know if you will.

I really don't even know if you will. Uh, I need you to show me. If you're real, show me you're real. And that began a year of just things I never saw coming that were just so amazing and, and have, have radically changed my life. Wow. Incredible. Yeah. I, yeah. We'd, I'd love to hear, um, kind of where it went from there, from that locker room.

Yeah. So I I'm saying that prayer on the toilet , uh, in the locker room of template, bucking it a strange place, you know, for this to happen. Yeah. And, uh, and before, before I was, I was actually petting myself on the back going look, how far you come, man, look what you've overcome. You know, you're at the doorstep of your dream.

This is what you wanted since you were eight or nine years old, you know, I was just kind of pat myself on the back and it hit me. I'm like, man, I'm M. I'm I'm miserable. Uh I'm I'm so depressed. I don't wanna live. This is what I thought would make me happy. This is what I thought every man wanted. And it's not enough.

And I don't know where to turn. I don't even know if I wanna live, what do I do? I wasn't gonna go talk to my teammates. mm-hmm, hasn't gone well for me in the past, you know, unfortunately. And, um, I was like, what am, what do I do? And sitting right there, I just, I cried out, like I said, I just said, okay, God, Hey, remember me?

You know, part here. I need to know if you're real. I mean, I know Jesus died for me 2000 years ago. I that's great, but what good does that do me right now? Mm-hmm I need to know if you're real and if you're real show you so real to me, if not. I don't wanna live anymore. I'm done. I'm worn out. So now it's a week later.

No one knows that that's just private in my own heart. And no one knows, like I said, this prayer and I, uh, a week later I get the dreaded call. My dream of playing in the NFL comes to an end. I go back to Tallahassee and here he is, again, my brother, Bob, eight years older than me. We're playing golf. And he's telling me about this men's week.

And he went to, and he's telling me about some of these guys' stories. He doesn't know. I had said this prayer. I I'd said, I said this prayer. And he's telling me about these men and I'm listening and he's surprised I'm listening because usually I'm like, yeah, Bob, that's your thing, but I'm listening. And then he says, Hey, Bob, we have another weekend coming up.

Would you like to go? And I remembered my prayer and I said, yeah, Bob, I'll go. Oh, really? You'll go. Yeah, I'll go. . And uh, you know, I jokingly say if, if Bob would've said you're gonna be on a weekend with 50 men. Who were gonna hug one another and say, I love you. I would've never gone. yeah. Right. I was not ready for that.

And, and, uh, but sure enough, here I am on this weekend with 50 men who are hugging one another and saying, I love you. And I was uncomfortable with that. I was stiff as a board, but you know, I was there and, uh, it is, it was 10 men shared their, their testimonies, kinda like I'm sharing now. And two of them deeply impacted me.

And, uh, one was a politician who talked about how he had been unfaithful to his wife and destroyed his family. I felt like my father was up there repenting. I was like, oh, this is touching me. Oh, this is strange, you know? Yeah. And then another man, uh, he was JC man of the year. He wanted to be JC man of the year and said for 10 years, I sacrificed my marriage, my children to be this business man of the year.

And he got invited to New York and among all the men, they call out his name. They hand him a plaque. He makes a speech. And as he is walking off the stage, he hears a voice in his head, said book in your hand. He said, I looked at my hand and I saw a piece of wood. With my name on it. And he said for this stinking piece of wood, I sacrificed my entire life.

He just wept. And he said everywhere, he went, he just started weeping. He would go to convenience store and he would just start weeping. Wow. And, uh, and then he said, all of a sudden, he just started feeling that's presence. And, uh, and, and so I'm listening and I'm like, okay, this is, this is interesting. Now it's Sunday.

And you're sitting around these tables. Have you ever been to one of these weekends? You know, there's, there was six men to a table, 50 men in the room and you're doing little things and a little skits and little things, you know, little, little too cheesy for me, to be honest with you. Mm-hmm I was there. I, I stayed and, um, and then you get letters from loved ones and, and, uh, Bob who's on the weekend with.

Writes me a letter. You, so Bob has always been in my life and influential in my life. Even growing up, he was the one stable one, you know, and he, uh, he was kind of a father figure in some way. He's eight years older than me. And, uh, here he is on the weekend with me and he writes me this letter and Bob says, bar, I just wanna let you know.

I love you. And I'm proud of you and I'm reading this going, what is he drinking? And what is he talking about? He loves me. I don't love me. He's proud of me. What are you proud of me for? I just failed at the only thing that I was good at. I'm I'm what do you mean? You know, and so I thought, well, I should thank him.

So I get up, he sees me, we meet in the middle of the room. The guy reminded me of my father and the politician was standing behind us. He says, you two brothers need to hug. And he pushed Bob and I together. And he just, the walls of my heart just collapsed. I just started sobbing. I don't remember having cried like that ever in my life.

And I'm sobbing. I mean, it was like a damn broke open, and I'm sobbing in Bob's arms, just wailing and Bob's crying. And I look around the room and every man's crying and I, I feel this presence fill the room and I'm like, whoa, this feels great. What is this? You know, and I'm, I'm just sobbing. And then interiorly, I hear this voice and, and I know it's God.

He says, Bart, I'm your father. I'm a father to the fatherless and I love you. And I lost it and I just absolutely fell apart. And I was like, whoa, man. And then there was a priest there and I went to confession and I mean, I unloaded all my mess and, uh, and I told him, I said, man, just, uh, a few weeks ago I was in the locker room with the Tempe buckers and I cried to God and I said, God, I need to know if you're real.

And today he showed himself real. I said, I wanna give my life to Christ. I wanna follow him for the rest of my life. That was 32, 33 years ago. And, uh, it's honestly, it's my biggest passion. And it is the reason my life changed. I mean, it was like in a moment I encountered what I've been looking for my whole life, which was love, you know, God doesn't just love us.

He is love itself. And I honestly, I didn't experience that in, in, in church. I didn't experience that in my Catholic school to be quite honest with you. Um, maybe it was my fault, but I, I, I never experienced that until. I was, what was I? 23, 24 years old. I'd come to the end of myself. And that's when it was almost like he was waiting for me.

And he is like, okay, now I can, now I can move. Now I can, now I can penetrate past these barriers, these walls and, and get down to his heart. I didn't realize all the walls that I had built up. I didn't realize all the self defenses that I had. I mean, if someone would've talked to me about God or told me about something, I would've, it would've been like, you know, to beware the dog sign, you know, they'd have got close with, oh, you know, I just, I didn't wanna hear it.

And, uh, I, I was just, I was hardened and I was, but it was, it was when the walls of my heart broke down, but it took some circumstances that honestly woke me up. And then, and then God had room to move in my heart. It wasn't religion that grabbed me. It was, it was God himself and, you know, good religion represents that good religion brings us into that kind of experience and the encounter, but it was, it was him, it was, it was his presence.

And, uh, it was, it, it changed me forever. Wow, incredible. So inspiring. And like you said, you know, if you would've tried to do this on your own or had someone try to orchestrate all this, it wouldn't have worked. And so it's amazing how, yeah, God, God works in mysterious ways. And it's so good to, to hear you were able to, to turn things around.

Cause there's so many people who go exactly through what you went through and they don't find that help and that hope and just devastating. It's so sad, Joey, it's so sad, you know, and, and I get it, you know, I get it. Um, but it's just so sad. It's so sad that, that one it's sad that, that we, as the church.

Have not done a better job of just representing that love. Yeah. Just being honest, you know, we gotta own that. We, we haven't done, we haven't done a good enough job of just bringing that presence and bringing people into an encounter and, and, and loving people, you know, so often we're judging, you know, I felt judged.

I felt judged growing up. I, I, I did, I did not feel, I did not feel the love now. People probably tried, you know, but my barriers were so thick that, you know, I didn't let them in, but it's, it's sad. You know, it's really sad. So many people are hurting and, and just needing, needing to be loved, needing to be seen, needing, to be heard, needing to be value.

And, uh, frankly, I don't, I don't think we've done a good job of that, you know? And I think that's changing. I think we're, we're waking up, but it's, you know, people like you, you know, that are, that are sharing the heart, you know, the, the things that really matter, you know, the depths of the heart, we all have a heart, you know, we all have that in common.

You know, we could talk about all the things that divide us, whether it's religion, whether it's race, whether it's politics, all that stuff. That's just the external garbage, you know, the reality is we all have a heart and when we meet each other at the place of the. That's that's when things really start to happen, at least that's, that's my story.

That's when things really happened and changed. Yeah. No, it's incredible. And I'm so inspired by you and your vulnerability and the work that you've done. It's incredible. And I, I wanna share that with our audience, with everyone listening right now, but before we get to that, let's talk about your father.

So obviously there was just a lot there, a lot of wounds there. Tell us, how did you overcome that, that hatred of your father? Oh yeah. Uh, and that's, that's, that's, that's a great question and a great, great journey. You know, as I said, I hated him. I, I, I, I hated him. I had no relationship with him. I don't remember him.

He left when I was. I had, there was times when I saw him and it just wasn't a pleasant experience. I didn't know him. Um, there was a time when I was 12 or 13, I went and visited him and that was good and painful at the same time. Cuz he just sat on his Lazyboy chair and here's this man who's called my dad.

I just want relationship with him. We did have an impactful, uh, conversation, but it was, I didn't, I didn't know him, you know, I didn't know him. And so here it was after I encountered God, the father, you know, and it had just, it changed. Um, it was a whole journey and I went to an Institute of ministry. I, I did a lot of things in that time.

Went through, got freedom from what I think probably was a sex addiction. And a lot of things changed in my heart. And in my life, there was a lot, a lot has, has happened in the last 33 years. But one of the things that happened, it was probably three, four years after that encounter that I just shared, I was just, I was just alone.

I actually went out into the woods for eight days. wow. With just a hammock, a tent, water, a journal in a Bible. And, uh, I, while I was there, one of the things God was speaking to me about was to forgive my father. And I was like, no, I can't forgive that, man. I actually had a name form. It started with an a and it would hold.

I said, there's no way I'm gonna forgive him. And, uh, and this is how candid I was with God. I'm like, no, I'm not forgiven him. I'm not forgive him. And then I, I read and I read a scripture and it says, unless you forgive, you will not be forgiven. And I honestly had the mindset of fine. Then you don't have to forgive me.

You know, I was not gonna forgive this man. I mean, I was like, no way. I felt like I was giving him, you know, a pass, like, oh, it's okay, dad, you know, it's okay. No, it's not okay. You ruined my, you ruined my life and no, I am not gonna forgive him. And, um, and, and I was just hard, man. It took me a while. It took me a while.

And then one day I was actually reading another scripture and it says a good tree produces good fruit, a bad tree produces bad food. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit and a bad tree cannot produce good food. And as I'm reading this, all of a sudden, I start looking over my family tree, my mom's side, my bad's side.

And I saw all the destruction, just the, the affairs, the divorces, the drugs, the alcohol, the womanizing, the, you know, the, you name it. I just was seeing it. It was like, whoa, my gosh, my family, tree's a mess. And you know, and, and we, we have a great family and, and, but yet. We all have our brokenness in our dysfunctions.

And it was like, it was just being magnified. And I was like, oh my gosh. And then I saw my own journey and I was like, oh man. And I'm some of the worst fruit on this tree. You know, I'm like nine college years were just horrible. And some reason in the midst of all this is I was just owning my own mess.

All of a sudden, I just had a compassion for my father. I was like, you know what? My father's just like me. He, he was lost and broken and, and didn't try, didn't know how to get past his own struggles. And that's what led to his decisions that were very destructive. And that's what led to my decisions that were very destructive.

And I was like, all of a sudden, I was just like, I was able to forgive him cuz I had already been forgiven a few years earlier. Jesus had forgiven me and I just felt cleansed. And yet I wasn't able to forgive my dad. And then here, all of a sudden I had this compassion and I was able to forgive him and it was just like this weight off of my shoulder.

So it's like, oh my gosh, you know, I have a compassion for my father. I, I get it. I understand. It's not okay. I understand, you know, forgiveness is one of those things. It's like, we think, okay, I'm gonna forgive and, and okay, that's getting them off the hook. There's no way I'm gonna forgive that person for what they did.

They grow my life. Now, I think true forgiveness is sitting down and counting the cost. You know, you gotta count a cost before you can forgive a debt, you know? And it's like, so it's like just sitting through and going, okay, dad, this is what you cost me. You know, you cost me my childhood. You cost me my, you cost me the, the pain I watched my mom and my siblings go through all the things that you cost me and my journey and my life, you know, my choice is yes, but you know, if you were there and then, and I just kind of went through it all in my, in my own head and my own imagination, I was just like, you know, and I just counted the cost.

I didn't hold back. I just, I just kind of let him have it in my imagination, you know? And then I was like, okay, all right. He's he's just like me. All right, dad. I forgive you. I didn't know this Bob had done similar around the same season of time. And then it was just a, a little while after this few months after this, uh, Bob reached out to my dad, my brother, Wayne who's two years older than me played football at Virginia and played, tried the NFL as well.

And his and my dream was to play in the NFL together, successful business man at the time and still is, but was, that was kind of his life not going to church. My brother, Dave, um, my brother, Dave, when my dad left, he was 13. He became a heroin addict in and out of prisons and, uh, just lost and, and is so Bob invites him.

He comes our half brother rich, who is the result of my father, uh, second marriage, which my mom didn't know about my brother-in-law Nick, my brother-in-law Ken and myself. We all went to this men's event that Bob invited us to, and everyone said, Wow. And here we are with our dad and we're under a gazebo.

My dad very close. We don't know him. I mean, here's this man called dad? I don't know. As a father, it's just really strange. And, um, we're sharing and talking and, and interacting. And we started asking our dad some hard questions because the nature of the, of the mens of it, he was open and he shared his childhood.

He shared the affairs. He shared his journey. He had regret. And, uh, and it was this real open conversation when this weekend ended. I didn't know this, but I'm with my brother, Wayne. And again, Wayne and I shared football together, but we didn't share it this level, that what was about to happen. And, uh, the phone rings and Wayne picks up the phone and I'm listening as well.

And it's our brother, Dave and our brother, Dave told Wayne and I that he had aids. He had gotten a hold of a dirty needle to heroine. It had gotten aids. And Wayne and I put the phone down, embraced one another and just started sobbing, sobbing. And, uh, it was just this brokenness. And then we watched our brother Dave go through this process of his body, just dwindling.

He actually lived his last year's and my brother Wayne's house in the process of his dying and suffering my father, my mother, all my siblings. Uh, we'd all gather at Wayne's house and to take care of Dave. I mean, just broken humbling times, you know, people having to bathe him, change him, shriveling down.

I mean, it just really difficult, painful time, but in the midst of that difficulty, We had healing as a family. Wow. We would cry in one another's arms. We would forgive our dad, sent us all a letter asking us to forgive him. And he was for being an alcoholic and his choices and the different things, and all this healing was happening and it was miraculous.

It was just amazing healing. And then after Dave died, Dave died on my brother Wade's birthday in his house, in my brother Bob's arms. And my father's arm breathed his last in my father's arms. And at his funeral, we all read excerpts from Dave's Bible. So babe, David had a change of life in this process and Dave would highlight these scriptures and then write these notes that it was his desire that his, his suffering, his illness would bring healing to our family.

And that's exactly what happened. Uh, very profound. Uh, and then, uh, started having a relationship with my father. We started going to men's events together. Some of the men's events, Bob and I would be speaking, I would share very candidly, some of the things I'm sharing now, uh, even more detail, the hatred that I had for my father, my father would be in the audience and people would go up to my father and they would say, how are you doing with this?

You know, how are you handling your sons being so candid about this? And our father's answer was, I think it's beautiful that God could take my mess and my mistakes and redeem it. And, and in turn he said, I'm so proud of my boys, you know, and just beautiful. And then his, his last year of life, I mean, there's just, there's so much more I could tell you, but just, just beautiful.

I mean, God's redemption is incredible and he's so real, so much more real than, than, than we even allow people to see . Yeah. Um, it just it's, it's, it's incredible. Uh, the forgiveness, I, I love my father. He, he died a couple years ago and just had a beautiful. Last month of his life, where he visited all his kids and just more healing and more things.

And I don't know if you want me to go in any of that, but it's just, they're all, you know, beautiful. Just, just beautiful things that God did. I mean that that's the only place I can give the credit. There's no way we could have orchestrated any of this amazing, like you're literally making me tear up.

It's just unbelievable how much change happened, how beautiful the transformation was of your family and, wow. Wow. I, I don't, I'm a little speechless, to be honest with you. Yeah. Yeah. So beautiful. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I'm sure we could talk forever. Sure. You have so many stories. I, I did wanna know, comparing your life now to what it was, you know, when you were in college, like contrast that for us.

Like, what is it like? I could never, I could never have imagined what my life would've been like two years past that point. I didn't know I was gonna live honestly. I was daily fighting just to, just to keep persevering and, and living. And thank God thank God. I never quit. You know, I never quit. That's one of my greatest strengths is I never quit.

I persevere, I get up, you know, I fall down, I get up, you know, and I'm so glad I I'm so glad I've had that. And, and you know, a lot of that's been instilled from my family, my mother, um, just to never quit, you know? And thank God. So yeah, man, here I am now 30 whatever years it is now later, I'm 57 years old, married to my wife, Brooke.

We've been married 25 years. We have four children, three girls, boy, 24, 20, about to be 2218 and then 15. I I'm, I'm traveling the country. Sharing my life, my story, hoping to do the same thing you were doing, which is bring hope in life and, and, and, and, and help help people, you know, help people. I just remember all the times, I just felt so hopeless and helpless and powerless and just, oh man.

And I wanna see, I wanna see, I want to give people hope, you know, but I know it's not by just giving them a bunch of nice things. It's it's, it's, it's it's by the power of God. Yeah. That's that's my passion. I'm I'm living a dream, living a dream. Amazing. Amazing. Like, God is good. It's so incredible to see that the change in your life.

And it's so inspiring too. I know you've given me hope and I know everyone listening, uh, as well. What would you say to someone listening right now? Who is moved by your story, but maybe they're like, I'm not ready for this God stuff. Yeah. What would you say to them? How can they heal? What steps can they take?

Yeah. I mean, I, I get it. I hope you hear that in my journey. I get it. And I get it. I wasn't ready for the God stuff either. You know, and honestly, in some ways I'm still not, you know, I don't like the way it's represented. Sometimes I don't like the way I represen him sometimes. You know, I, I, but, but he is our source of life.

I mean, he is, he is our source of life. He's one who created us. He's the one, he is the answer, but it's not necessarily the way he's been present. That, you know, it's and like I said earlier, you know, we need to own that. So forgive me on behalf of the church for misrepresenting him, because when you encounter him himself, when I encountered him in that moment, it was like, I realized, oh my gosh, this is what I've been looking for my whole life.

I've just been looking for the father's love. You know, he, he is the answer. He is the answer, but honestly just, just pay attention to your heart. No, don't, don't, don't put up all the, the walls and the facades. That's, that's, that's only hurting you, you know, a and as I know that from my own journey, it's only hurting you.

Yeah. You gotta be careful who you let in, you know, those vulnerable places, but there are people that can help and reach out, but just like me and the silence of your own. Just say God show me, show me, just lead me. Show me amazing. Amazing. I know, uh, you, like you said, you travel the country doing ministry and speaking to people.

Uh, what do you guys offer? How can people learn more about you if they want to? Yeah, well, I have, uh, I do, I, I work for two different ministries. One, uh, is with my brother, Bob JP two healing center. It's a JP small lives, uh, JP small life, small eye healing center.org. Uh, you can go on there and you can see all the events that we offer and different things we offer.

And then I have my own ministry, my own website. It's called church on fire.live. L I V E. You can go on there. I have online courses, uh, which are different sources, different tools I've won on knowing purpose and, and desire. I have other ones, an equipping material that I have. I have one that tells the story more in detail called encountering the father's love.

I have some from events that I had done, some things on there that I, I try to price low, so that make it available to people. You can go on there. Incredible. Okay. Thank you. I even saw some of those you were given away for free, which is super generous of you. And I wanted to, uh, yeah. Give you an opportunity to just share maybe one story of transformation that you've seen in helping people through your different ministries.

Uh, cuz I know you guys are super effective at what you do. And I just want people to know that if they were to work with you, that you know, maybe it wouldn't happen the same as the things that you've seen, but there is so much potential and hope there. So yeah. What, what sort of transformations have you seen in people who, who do work with you guys, man?

Uh, you know, Joey, I've seen so many things, uh, as you're asking, I'm trying to think of a specific detail. Maybe one will come as I share this. I I've seen, I've seen incredible things. I've seen miracles. I I've seen people, physically miraculously healed cancer. I've seen, uh, metal pins and plates in people's back and they were able to bend over and touch their toes for the first time in their life.

I've seen lives emotionally, radically changed none of this by my hand, or anyone else's hands all of this by the power of God. Um, this is what, this is what Jesus came to do. This is, this is the real, this is the real Jesus who, who, who came to set us free. You know, he says, uh, he whom the Lord sets free is free.

Indeed. You know, as you come to Christ, old things, pass away, all things are made new. You know, that's my story. You know, I've seen countless thousands of lives, uh, radically transformed at an emotional level. And just through, through God encountering them in very profound ways. You know, one, one little story.

That's just kind of a general one for those who are, who are churched and, and, and maybe not experiencing this, this, this tangible presence, but a guy just recently shared with me that he. Had been, he had gone to, he'd been a Catholic, his whole life gone to masses entire life. He's 60 years old. He had gone first through 12th grade Catholic schools.

And, uh, and he said, after an event, he said, I never know the presence of God like this. I've never felt his presence and the presence of holy spirit like this in my life. And I never really understood what it really meant to be Catholic until today. And I've been, I've been radically transformed. My life has been changed and, and, uh, I'm so excited to continue on, like, this people's lives.

We do events with priests and, and the healing they go through is profound. You know, people that, you know, whether you're in the church or not in the church, you know, from the media and the church is getting rocked with scandals. And, and we see that we've seen that on both sides. And we're seeing tremendous healing and transformation in individual's lives and countless people's lives.

And yeah, I mean, I, I, I'm just trying to think of some specifics, uh, beyond that, but no, that's incredible. To be honest, you, God's amazing. Yeah. God's amazing. Incredible, incredible. This is possible for every one of us, you know, and honestly, I mean, I. I don't mean to talk bad about it, but sometimes religion upsets me, you know, because we've represented this thing on this, this external source, you know, mm-hmm and, and, and it has to come from the depths of the being the heart has to come from the overflow of the life of the presence of God.

It has to be with the very presence. The holy spirit, the church even says to call upon the holy spirit every day. He is, he is the source of life. If you never walk into a church, you know, that's your choice, but just try, just sit there in your room or wherever you are and just say, come holy spirit, come Lord Jesus.

Just give him, give him a shot. Just invite him. . Yeah. And, and he, he is the transformation. He is, there's a, there's a, there's a quote in the church that says this. It says the fire of the holy spirit is the transforming end. The fire is the transforming energy of the holy Spirit's actions. Mm. He comes like a fire that warm, that just warms up the depths of our being and reaches us at the core at the heart.

And it it's the heart. The heart is the place of transformation. The heart is the place of life or death. The heart is the place of battle. The heart is where we've been inflicted with these wounds and the heart is where Jesus wants to come and set us free and bring us life. And the holy spirit will bring his transforming energy and life and passion into your heart.

And I pray that even as I'm saying this, if you're listening that he touches you now and that he brings hope and life and healing to your own heart. Beautiful, incredible. And I totally agree with the kind of the misrepresentation of religion. It's, it's very sad and hollow and it's sad. I love that.

You're changing that and yeah, if people wanna follow you on social, are you on social? How could they do that? You know, I do have some social media, but honestly as a my generation, man. I, I flounder with it, you know, I that's okay. I have Facebook page. I have, uh, uh, Instagram, I have text, but honestly, I don't even know how to manage any of 'em I need a come alongside of me.

There you go. Help me, you know, but they can go on to, uh, let's see. I don't even know what my Facebook page is, but my name bar shoots. They can probably find it. Sure. Um, on Instagram, uh, I guess it's the same Twitter it's uh, at bar shoots. S H O O T S. It's spelled differently. My real spelling is S C H U C H T.

Um, but I don't post a lot. I just try to, you know, I just kind of post stuff with my family. Li honestly, I need a, I need a millennial. Who's gonna come alongside again. take all that stuff and get it out there. Yeah. No, that's fair. No problem at all. We'll make sure to link to all those in the show notes guys.

So you, uh, don't have to remember all that Bart. Thank you so much for being here. I, I just wanna give you the last word. Uh, what encouragement would you give to someone listening right now? A young person listening right now who, who feels stuck, they feel broken. Maybe they hate themselves the way that you hated yourself, what would you say to them?

What encouragement would you give them? Um, especially if they're wrestling with this whole trauma of the breakdown of their parents' marriage and their family. Oh man. I, first of all, I, I feel your pain. I, I it's real to me. I, I understand it. It's, uh, one never give up. Don't. Don't quit, no matter what the temptation is, don't quit.

I remember I used to sit in high school, the end of my uncle's dock. I lived with him, my high school, my senior year, feeling lonely and depressed my world falling apart, all kind of things happening. And I remember sitting at the end of his dock, looking out over the water, looking out to the other side of the river and just going what's on the other side, man.

This is what it looks like right now, but what's on the other side. Little did I know that was preparing me for the journey of, of my life. It's like, there's hope on the other side, there is hope on the other side and, and just keep pressing in. And Jesus is that hope and I'm not trying to push religion, but he is the answer.

Not, not, not in the negatives of religion, but him himself. He is our source of life. He came to bring us abundant life, call on him, ask him, do like I did God. I just need to know if you're real. I mean, I've heard all this stuff. Just show me, just show me, show me, lead me to the right people, show me, but never, ever, ever, ever give up.

And I understand if you struggle loving yourself. I understand that completely. Not until I encountered love himself that I learned to love myself. You know, God is love. And, and I love myself today. I love myself, uh, not in a weird way, but in a healthy way, love yourself. Never give up.

If you want more content from Bart, you can find that at church on fire. Dot live again. That's church on fire.live. Once you're on that website, click online courses, and then you can choose a course and you can buy it. Now, if you're not ready for that, you can click on store on that website. Again, that's church on fire.live, and you'll find some, uh, free previews of the courses that he offers.

If you wanna know more about the John Paul to healing centered, you can just Google JP two healing center, or you can go to JP II healing center.org. You can click on the schedule on that page, and then you can sign up for a live event if you'd like to attend one of their events. One takeaway from this episode for me, is that it's so important to find the right people in your life to talk to about your struggles about your broken family.

Because like Bart said, it can actually be harmful to talk to the wrong people. So the question really is how do you find. The right people to talk to, to open up to, I, I think there's a few principles that you can follow. One is look for someone who has empathy, the ability to really put themselves in your shoes, even if they haven't been exactly through what you've been through, they can put themselves in your shoes.

Next. I say, find someone who won't judge you, someone who will just listen, who will just accept you as you are now. Not saying they're gonna prove of anything bad that you've done in your life, but they'll just accept you. And they'll love you wherever you're at in life. Next. Find someone who is trustworthy, someone, you know, who is gonna keep your story.

Keep your struggle secret. They're not gonna go tell everyone. They know. Another point is find someone whos suffered. I've found typically that people who've suffered and especially learned to deal with it in some healthy way are more trustworthy. People who haven't suffered much in life. They tend not to be able to relate with you, especially when you're sharing something deep and heavy with them.

And so I'd say find someone who, you know, has been through some stuff in life who's suffered next, find someone who's older and wiser than you. Someone who can offer you guidance, not just listen to you, but maybe offer some advice for how to deal with whatever you're dealing with. Another benefit too, is they can help you keep healthy boundaries with them and other people in your life.

Because so often when we bring our problems to someone, there is a temptation, especially for people like us to develop an unhealthy reliance on them. And so they could help you keep those good boundaries, which will help keep the relationship healthy. And then lastly, I'd say it's usually best if you're a man that you go to another man, and if you're a woman, then you go to another woman.

So quick recap, look for someone who has empathy, who won't judge you, who's trustworthy, who's suffered. Who's older and wiser, and who's typically the same sex as you are, but you might be asking, how do I know that they have all these characteristics? The first thing of course is maybe you've seen these characteristics in that person in action with other people, or maybe even with you, if you haven't seen that, maybe you've seen hints of those characteristics, or you've heard other people talking about that person saying, oh, they're really empathetic.

Or they've been through a lot in their life or they give great advice. And then once you've figured out someone who you can open up to, then it's just a matter of improving that relationship. You might have an opportunity to be there for them. Maybe if they're more of your peer, as opposed to a mentor.

But whatever the case, ask them, if you can talk to them, tell them, Hey, I'm going through a lot of stuff in my life right now. And I just need someone to talk to. Is it okay if I open up to you and see what they say, honestly, they might not be able to help you at that point in their life. They might be in a rough spot and they might not have much capacity.

That's okay. Find the next best person. And even if they are available, it might not go perfectly. It might not go how you imagine it to go. But if you do the things that I mentioned, you'll be on the right track and the likelihood that they're gonna be open and helpful. Is gonna be a lot higher now to help along those lines.

We've built an online community here at restored, and it's just a safe place for you to speak openly about the pain and the problems that you face. It'll help you not feel so alone. And you'll be challenged to grow into a better stronger person. And recently we started doing online, uh, digital virtual meetups, where we all get together on a call and just talk about stuff we chat.

And we also discuss, uh, different things. And we talk about the pain and the problems in our lives due to the breakdown of our family and our parents' divorce separation, all those things. So this is a group of people, young people. Like you, who you can be a part of who you can talk to. You can find support from, if you wanna join, just go to restored ministry.com/community.

Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/community. Fill out the form. And then we'll communicate through email to add you to the group. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restorministry.com slash 48. Thank you so much for listening. I really hope this has been helpful. It's been useful for you.

If it has been, I invite you to subscribe and share this podcast with someone, you know, who could really use this content. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#047: How Healing Improved My Life, Marriage, and Friendships | Sandra Howlett

When your parents’ marriage breaks apart, it feels like an earthquake. The most basic foundation, your family, is shaken and shattered. It’s disorienting. It’s traumatic. As a result, we tend to go through life doubting anything can last. 

But thankfully, we’re not doomed to skepticism our entire lives. We can heal and feel whole again, like our guest Sandy. In this episode, she shares:

• How she beat chronic depression

• How her choice to forgive her parents led to feeling free instead of stuck

• The sexual mistakes she made and the healing she’s found

Share your story

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Email: sandrahowlett25@icloud.com

  • How Fear of Abandonment Can Affect Your Relationships 

  • Death of Innocence

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As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When your parents' marriage falls apart, it often feels like an earthquake. The most basic foundation in your family is shaken and shattered. It's disorienting, it's traumatic. And because of that, we tend to go through life questioning what won't fall apart. We doubt that anything can last, that we can rely on anything or anyone.

But while that is a real struggle that we face, we're not doomed to perpetual skepticism our entire lives. We can heal and feel whole again. And we can even learn to trust and find security which we touch on. In this episode, you're also gonna hear us discuss how my guest beat chronic depression, just incredible story, how her choice to forgive her parents actually led to feeling free instead of stuck.

She makes the great point that mentors are an incredible tool to help you heal. And. She shares how healing her brokenness has actually helped her find peace in life, build good friendships and even improve her own marriage. And then she gets real about the sexual mistakes that she's made and the healing that she's found.

This is really raw and real conversation with solid advice. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation. Or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 47 and today my guest is Sandra Hallett. Sandy grew up in Southern California, where she spent her time, camping, surfing, and horseback riding Sharon earned a bachelor's in journalism from California state long beach and has written for black belt and boys' life magazines and various community newspapers.

She's been married for 20 years and now lives in Minnesota with her husband, mark. She has a blended family with two stepsons, one earning his masters in theology and another who is a talented musician and one son in his first year of minor. Seminary Sandy rediscovered her Catholic faith upon moving to Minnesota at nine years ago.

And in the last two years has begun the healing process from her parents' divorce. She's a life giving wounds online retreat leader and works part-time for marriage material, a pro-life organization. Like I mentioned, this conversation is very raw and real. We talk about topics that honestly are not talked about enough.

And so I hope this is helpful for you. I know it will be. So here's my conversation with Sandy,

Sandy. Welcome to the show. Thank you. I've been really looking forward to this, to, to everyone listening, uh, Sandy and I actually got to, to meet up in person recently. We had dinner together. Uh, Sandy, thanks again. I, uh, I hope you enjoyed that pizza that we had, and it was really great to meet you in person.

Yeah. So good to, uh, see the face on the other side of the voice. Finally. you make me sound special? I don't, I don't feel special at all, but, um, no, it, it was great to, to meet you in person. That definitely changes the dynamics of the interview. Cuz a lot of the people I interview, I don't have the pleasure of meeting in person, but if any of you listening, if you're ever in Colorado, uh, hit me up, it would be great to, to see you.

But Sandy's so good to have you. I, I just honored to hear your story to, and I, I know some of it already and just share it with restores audience. So I'd like to start by you just taking us to your C. Like what happened with your parents' marriage, with your family? How old were you? Uh, how did you react to it?

Yeah, so I was four, maybe close to five when my parents, um, separated got divorced and I really hardly remember anything. I mean, my, the only memories I have growing up are mostly after the divorce. I have a couple of strong memories right before it happened. Um, one of 'em was an earthquake and so that's kind of weird.

So it's kind of ingrained in my, in my memory. And, um, in fact it was kind of a metaphor for me for a while of like just the ground shaking and me as I was getting older and dealing with the issues of divorce of just kind of feeling like I'm, you know, on shaky ground and never quite able to find solid the ground for myself and in my life and stuff.

Anyways. So my dad, um, had convinced my mom, so we were living in Southern California and this was the seventies. And, you know, there was a lot of stuff going on in the seventies, but, um, he, um, apparently wasn't happy in his marriage and he talked my mom into, um, going to this swingers party. And, um, I know they were like maybe smoking a little pot and stuff too at the time, cuz we had found pipes in their dresser drawers.

But anyway, um, you know, the, they both came from very conservative Catholic background. So it was just kind of, I don't know how to explain how all this went down, but um, anyway, they end up at this party that my mom says she really didn't wanna go to my dad has a very forceful personality. So I kind of understand how that worked.

And he met my stepmom, who she's still my stepmom 50 years later. And um, you know, their story is apparently their knees touched and sparks flew. And that was that. I do remember vaguely, I think it's a real memory of them. Uh, my parents arguing at one point yelling at each other and then after that nothing.

And so he moved out temporarily to an apartment and then, um, Moved in with my stepmom at her house. So we, I guess the summer after they got separated and, or divorced, my mom, my dad had been trying to encourage my mom to go on trips or vacations by herself. Um, which I probably because of the marriage, but she had, she tells me that this trip was pre-planned before they separated.

So she was gonna go to Europe for the summer. And then after they separated, of course, he probably didn't wanna have anything to do with it, taking care of the kids and letting her, you know, go on this trip. But they were separated and she was very, very angry and very upset. And apparently had the babysitter drive us over to my dad and stepmom's house and just drop us off and say, here, you're taking the kids, you know, mm-hmm oh, wow.

which, um, you know, Obviously it wasn't great that my dad, you know, left the family, but it's also not great with kids who are in turmoil, like early on in a divorce for your mom then to also kind of take off for a summer. So, you know, trauma upon trauma, obviously we kind of made it work, but like I said, you know, we were, we were pretty.

Angry and naughty kids. And we would lock the babysitter out of the house during the day. And I know my sister ran away at least once. And, you know, I mean, we were, we were pretty traumatized when I was, so that was when I was about four or five. And then when I was 12, my mom was getting remarried. And so the courts at that time, so we had had the custody was, you know, at that time it was mostly given to the moms and then weekends with dad.

So every other weekend with my dad, which of course didn't really help our relationship either. I think he had some anger from the divorce, but he also has a very strong personality, you know, despite that. And so, you know, it was really hard and my parents, so, you know, we had what would be considered a good divorce, of course you, and I know there's no such thing mm-hmm , but as far as that, there wasn't any open fighting.

We had a pretty good lifestyle. I mean, it was definitely. We had to watch our pennies at my mom's house. We had a lot less money. So we were really, you know, on a tight budget, but we did a lot of camping for vacations and things like that, which is just, you know, one of the greatest memories of my childhood is just camping with my mom and our friends and stuff.

So in a way, it's, it's a good thing. We didn't have too much money. But then on the, then on the flip side, you know, my dad was doing quite well. He was an entrepreneur. He had his own modem company, started with a group of guys. He ended up, um, I mean like early on, he has like several patents developing stuff he was selling to apple was one of his customers and, you know, stuff like that.

So. So it was kind of a dichotomy because we had, you know, a pretty, you know, tight budget at my mom's and then we would go to my dad's and there was lots of money mm-hmm wow. And, you know, it was really hard for my mom, for instance, like we would come home after Christmas with all these expensive presents for my dad that she couldn't afford to buy us.

And so that was tough, but so they weren't, you know, really talking, even though it wasn't volatile and, um, We would have to make arrangements with our dad directly when we were children for our, every other weekly visits, which was really stressful for us. Cuz again, he was kind of, um, you know, a hard person to deal with.

I always in my, my PC adult life, I call him prickly. He was a little prickly, not, not more fuzzy, you know? Um, and so me and my sisters would fight, you know, like we're small children. We're like, you gotta call dad to make arrangements. I'm not calling him. You call him. I'm not gonna call him. you know, it was just like kind of stressful for us, but yeah, that's kind of how that went and then.

When I was 12, the courts decided, uh, and my mom was getting remarried and moving about an hour away from, you know, we had stayed in the childhood home where my mom and dad had lived, which was great also because it really gave us, you know, more stability than we would've had as children of divorced.

Cause I know a lot of children are divorced, have to go back and forth and Lu their stuff around and you know, all of that. And I understand you wanna, you know, maintain a relationship with dads, et cetera. But actually I feel like it was just a blessing that we didn't have to do that. Mm-hmm . And so, you know, at 12, my mom's getting remarried moving away and the court says, well, you're old enough to decide what parent you wanna live.

Yeah. Well, I think back now, and I'm like really at 12, I'm old enough to decide that. And not only that, but to have all that pressure put on me, like so much pressure. Oh my gosh. My sisters had already decided and with maybe a little urging from my dad that we had lived with my mom, the majority of the time, and maybe it was his turn or maybe it was, you know, let's live with dad.

So I'm like the last one. And they keep asking me, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? I'm like, I don't know. And it, you know, it's kind of a lose, lose situation. Absolutely. You know? Um, so my sisters were already leaving. If I went to live with my dad, my mom would be completely alone. And not to mention, like I said, my dad, wasn't the easiest person to live with.

So I'm like, well, you know, let me go live with my mom, just because it's easier. And because I wanna be there for her and you know, so that's what happened. Wow. There's so much there. It just breaks my heart to think of, you know, the four or five year old, you going through all of this stuff. And then everything that followed through the years, I think your analogy of, you know, the earthquake is so fitting and we've heard this again and again from people how it just feels like the foundation has been taken out underneath you.

And it just feels like kind of the way that we talk about it is if the, the family is the most basic fundamental sort of foundation that we're supposed to be able to rely on. And that falls apart, we tend to go through life feeling like, well, what won't fall apart? Like what can I actually rely on? And so we have so many feelings of insecurity there.

Yeah. And I had, um, a lot of nightmares as a child. I'm assuming it was after the divorce. And I remember going to sleep in my mom's room a lot because I was scared. And I, I still, to this day, remember the scary clown and the, the, in my dreams and the washing machine that I was stuck in. And then at sometimes I would try to sleep with my middle sister and she would kick me out.

And so I specifically remember one time waiting till she was asleep and crawling into her bed. And it's like a little twin bed, you know? And I'm curling my little body at the base of the bed near her feet and sleeping, you know, after she had already fallen asleep. So she couldn't kick me out. it's like so sad.

Yeah. Oh man. Yeah. I can imagine if you were to go back right now and just be with that little girl. I am curious. I, I, yeah. What would you say to, to her if you were to go back right now, I know I'm putting you on the spot, but, um, I'm just curious. Gosh, that's a great question. I mean, it's different. I, I could talk to my 20 year old self easier maybe than the little girl's self, but I know that, um, you know, it's not your fault.

You're loved. I mean, that's, I think the biggest thing with children is that. and not that we consciously think it's our fault, but somehow it gets into our psyche that we were somehow at fault, like parent didn't love me enough or whatever. I wasn't enough to keep them there. Or, you know, so just to, just to let people know that it's not their fault and you were loved and your parents are flawed.

Like when we're children, we just think our parents know everything. We just think that they're so perfect. And they have it all together. And. I can tell you as a parent now, and as an adult, like we don't know anything. we're maybe as we go along, we're just better at pretending yeah. I mean, it's kind of humbling.

And then it also tends to give you. A little more perspective and a little more forgiveness for your parents when you get older and you just realize that everybody's doing the best they can, we're all human, we all fail. And yeah, you just don't realize how kind of flawed your parents are as a child.

mm-hmm yeah. We, we tend to make them into superheroes thinking that, oh my goodness. Especially, you know, dad, we look at him and we say, oh my goodness, he's Superman. He can do nothing wrong. I know I looked at my dad like that. And then when my parents separated, that was part of the reason that it was so hard on me.

I was like, wait a minute. They're not perfect. And, and there's actually, you know, been some real problems going on that I wasn't aware of and all sorts of stuff that just crushed my trust in, in both my parents. Yeah. And, um, you know, I recently went on a retreat for children of divorce, with my stepson and, you know, he got, uh, An earful on probably the first time he's ever heard it, that I had issues with my marriage, to his father, you know, which is my current husband.

And, you know, I'm sure, you know, most people don't talk about marital problems that much. So even your friends and family and, you know, everyone thinks that everything's just perfect. And, um, there's a lot that goes on behind closed doors. yeah, absolutely. I, I wish we would talk about it more in a constructive environment, you know?

Cause I think, yes. I think one of the things that happens often is that, uh, one or both spouses go to their friends and they just gossip and they just complain and there's nothing constructive about it, but I, I really wish we would talk about those problems market. I think it would lead to better solutions.

I, and I definitely wanna get to that, uh, further with you, but yeah, I wanna give you a chance now, if you wanted to add anything there. Oh yeah, no, we can, we can talk about it a little bit later, but I know some of my friends really appreciate the fact like I'm. Pretty outspoken. Um, I've got some of my dad's traits.

I have a lot of, you know, ideas and opinions and things like that. I could talk forever, but that is one of the things that some of my friends appreciate my outspokenness and my, um, willingness to speak about. In a general way about marital problems without complaining about them. Like, yeah, this is hard, you know?

Yeah, absolutely. I, no, I think that's so good. And looking to you as an example, I'm sure is so helpful to, to so many of your friends and anyone who, who mentored look, who looks up to you. I wanna pause for a second. Just say anyone in the Minnesota area that Sandy's been working on, starting a support group.

I mean, at least you did right Sandy for a six week kind of stint. And, uh, that's possibly something that you will be doing in the future too. So at the end, we'll give people info if they wanna contact you, but it just came to mind because you are a go getter. You wanna start things, you wanna help people.

Yes. And I think that would be useful for anyone in your area. Are you in the, uh, Minneapolis area? Yes, I'm in Stillwater, Minnesota. Perfect. Okay. So it's about 30 minutes outside of the cities. Mm-hmm okay. Sounds good. So we'll make sure to, um, connect people with you if they wanna know more. Yeah. Maybe you all could, could help each other and get something going up there.

Definitely. Awesome. Love it. Two, two things you said before that really stuck out to me. One, you said you were kinda living in two worlds and I think that's the reality for so many, uh, children of divorce is that we live in two worlds, but it's so interesting. The financial difference. I've seen that with my parents, even to this day to, to be vulnerable.

Um, my dad was always working in construction and very experienced and good at what he he does. And so he, um, you know, always had the opportunity, usually had the opportunity to make a lot of money. And so when we're with him, it's usually going out to eat. And like you said, Christmas gifts and birthday gifts and things like that.

We're a little bit more extravagant. And then on mom's side, you know, she stayed at home for so many years to raise us, which was just such a sacrifice and a blessing. Like I, I'm just really grateful that she did that. Um, but then she had to go back to work. And so, uh, right now, you know, she's gonna be okay through retirement, but it is a real struggle.

And as we know, divorce just destroys people financially as well, especially if it's drawn out, like my parents' merit, uh, divorce was. And so, um, I can really relate with that. The other thing that you said was being the middle man, um, a number two of six kids as, uh, some people listening will know and, uh, being one of the oldest, I think I especially had to assume that role, especially cuz my parents were just kind of at each other's throats and it's like, okay, we're gonna have to be the mediator.

My, my older brother and I, and even my younger siblings. Different points. And so that, that is just such a struggle and it's such a difficult position to be in for, for kids. And I was curious offhand, uh, if you had any advice for anyone in that situation right now, who is the middle man who maybe feels like they need to be the middle man either to just keep things civil between mom and dad, or maybe protect their siblings.

I know I've assumed that role to protect my siblings so that my dad or my mom wouldn't go to them instead, they'd come to me cuz I felt better able to, to handle it in a lot of situations. But yeah. Any advice for that young person who is dealing with being the middle man? Yeah. That's not your job, you're a kid.

It's not your job. And I understand if you have siblings. So if you say no to being the middle man for your parents, that maybe they'll go to the siblings, but you know, it would be nice. Um, as a group, if you know, all the children would realize and you know, have a pact like. No, that's not our job. I think children of divorce are really forced to grow up, you know, way too early because of all these things.

And, you know, we've already lost so much of our childhood and that's just one more thing. And so for them to just realize that that's not what they're being asked to do is not reasonable. It's not something that should be put on them as children. And to just say no, , you know, like to find those boundaries somehow and, you know, and realize that, you know, don't be afraid of losing the love of your parents, cuz that's the, that's the biggest motivator for everything we do with our parents.

We're trying to please them. And you know, even if your parents get angry at you, they usually don't stop loving you. So, you know, it's just, it's just to realize that hopefully, you know, you can, you can kind of. Somehow set a boundary or find, or find a different solution to you having to feel like you have to be the middle man, and just maybe have a talk with them and just say, I'm not comfortable doing that.

You're the adult. I think you should do it. yeah, no, that's easier said than done. Oh, absolutely. And, and one thing to add there, uh, you might need to remind them frequently. I know I had to do this over the years and, uh, it's, it's sad, but. Yeah. I, I think there's so many raw emotions between our parents. So we, we might need to remind them of the boundary.

It's not like something you set once and it's done forever. That would be nice. I wish it was that way. Yeah, exactly. But, um, but reminding, and I love that idea, Sandy, about kind of teaming up with your siblings instead of just going it alone so that the middle man position goes to another sibling. That that's really good cause that, that is a great alternative.

And so getting them all on the same page, then maybe one or two of you approaching the, your parents and just saying, okay, we all agree on this. If, if, I mean, maybe you all could do it, but if not, uh, just one or two of you maybe could approach them and just explain how it's not good. It's not healthy. And they really need to be talking themselves to each other or through maybe some other mediator, like a family member or a friend, someone who's a counselor, even an attorney, someone who's exactly better equipped to, to handle those things.

So, uh, yeah, I love that. I, uh, also, and what a difficult position you were put in, just wanna touch on that. Cause I think there's a lot of people who feel that pressure of choosing between mom and dad, whether that means living with one or just O in other ways as well. And so, like, I know for, for me, when we go back to Chicago, we typically stay with mom.

And I know naturally because we're staying with mom it's, uh, a little bit more difficult to make time to see dad. And I know he feels kind of hurt by that and it can be difficult. Like we really make, we put forth an effort to have a relationship. You know, I put forth an effort to have a relationship with both of my parents, but it kind of just naturally because of that.

And so I've certainly feel that tension now, but man, I can't imagine as a, just a young woman. Uh, being forced to choose like that. And so a again, I just wanted to get your advice for anyone who's maybe in that situation now. And I, I'm not sure what all the court systems, uh, do at this point in terms of determining living situation.

I hope it's better than, than what you described, but I'm just curious. Yeah. Any advice for someone in that situation now who's listening. I don't really know. I mean, once they've, once they've put you in that situation, I'm sure some people would say, well, I never got a choice and it's nice that you got a choice, but I feel like it was just way too young to have that kind of burden put on me.

But yeah, I've always hated Christmas. It's it's better now, but growing up worst time of the year, having to, you know, bounce back and forth between parents' house. And even now we have to, you know, make sure that we spend the right amount of time, give everybody equal time and. You know, we're driving all over my family lives in the LA area, Southern California.

And as you know, the traffic's pretty bad there and just, that's an understatement. just driving from house to house. And now that I'm married, I have my in-laws, you know, that my husband's side of the family to visit. So now there's three family units to visit and it's just so exhausting, you know? Yeah. Um, and I, I just feel like kids really carry the burden of all that.

I was telling somebody at this retreat, like, you know, wouldn't it be great if we just had our house and all the parents had to come to us and had to coordinate with us rather than, you know, I mean, it's a logistical nightmare. I have to tell you because you know, not just like going to each house, but you know, which one do we start at and when do we, where do we go and how, you know, I mean just, oh my gosh.

yeah. And there's so much tension there too. Like if you go to this family's house first, it's like, well, you're, they're your favorites then? Or you spend maybe a little bit more time here than there. And it's, uh, it is, it can just be a mess, but I agree. It can be exhausting. And, um, yeah, I, I love that idea.

We should maybe try to implement that, just having them come to us. And I know some people listening have done that, which is great. Yeah. How did you see, uh, your parents' divorce affect you in the years that that followed, uh, you already explained some of that, but I'm curious if you would elaborate a little bit more.

Yeah, well, gosh, I feel like I wa I was a train wreck as a kid really, or as a teenager, young adult. I mean, I can't emphasize how off the rails I was. And I'll talk about it later. I guess if we have time, one of the things I didn't realize though, is how much anger I had. Um, so I'm, you know, pretty happy go lucky person.

I. I don't know, had good friends when I was younger and just joked around a lot and just had a lot of fun. But, um, you know, underneath there was just so much anger lurking there, which I found out after I got married of all times. So, um, it, it comes out. It, you can suppress things, but it comes out. But, but when I was younger, um, I was very rebellious.

I drank a lot. Like I, the first time I ditched school, I was in sixth grade and we were drinking at my house. I didn't have a lot of supervision for my mom, cuz she was working full time and she also was a different time when parents really didn't supervise their kids as much. And I really could have used supervision, but anyway.

Sure. Yeah. So I just. Yeah, got into a lot of drinking, um, with my friends and the, you know, the crowds that I hung out with that was normal anyway, for middle school, high school. Um, when my mom moved, she moved to kind of a nicer area, um, near the beach and there was. A lot of rich kids there and they drank and did drugs and, you know, lots of that stuff.

So there was house parties, the parents would leave for the weekends and there'd be these huge house parties or even smaller ones, but sometimes like, you know, hundreds of people, but yeah, so I got into a lot of trouble. I didn't really have a curfew. Yeah. I was drinking and driving. Um, just, yeah, I, I became probably more like towards the end of high school and in my twenties, I became very promiscuous.

Um, just kind of looking for that lost love, you know, love and, and affection attention from, from men. You know, it was kind of like, my heart was so walled up. I couldn't offer anything else. I couldn't make myself vulnerable, but you're so needing. That human connection. And yet when your heart's walled off, you can't make that connection.

And so it was, you know, it was made with my body and that was, that was pretty much all I had to offer and that's, it kept me going. And, um, it just, it really was almost, it was over the top and it almost like at an addictive level where it's like, I just couldn't stop. Like, I, I felt bad. And, um, I told my sister recently, like, yeah, I feel like I just lost my soul because we were talking about her kids or her daughter and like premarital sex.

And I wasn't, I wasn't Catholic when I was younger, I was raised Catholic, but I didn't have faith and I wasn't following the faith and stuff, but I really see, um, a reason now not to have premarital sex. I just. Yeah, it, it just doesn't work like from a practical standpoint. So, you know, a lot of what I found out through, you know, my experience of kind of healing and growing up and realizing all the things that had gone wrong in my life was that my life just wasn't working for me.

And that was one of 'em, you know, you just can't, you just can't jump into a physical relationship without having, um, a commitment or having something else there already, because then you, you feel worse. You feel like, do they really love me or do they only love me for my body? You know? And it just, it just ruins your, it ruined my self-esteem.

I mean, of, of all the things that happened. I know the divorce can be really hard on people's self-esteem their identity, things like that. But I think that more than anything else just kind of really shattered me and it was, you know, to a large part, my own doing. And so. Yeah. You know, I, I, I really couldn't stop even though I hated myself all the time for it.

And then I would just do it again. yeah. I mean, I had, it was like this aura, I kind of, you know, had this need for attention and people like it was felt, it was just like, it was front and center, you know, like I literally look across a crowded noisy bar and lock eyes with some guy and know that, okay, we're going home tonight, you know, together.

And so it was, you know, it was very dangerous, very, uh, in, in addition to other like physical risks and stuff that I took, um, when I was younger, cuz I was a real adrenaline junkie, you know, that was kind of, I've always been very physical, but I mean, obviously that was really risky and I. Thank God that I'm here to talk about it.

I guess. Yeah. Seriously. It's it's so interesting. I want you to keep going, but I wanna comment on something here. Uh, the, the anger and marriage thing. I've seen that in my own life, and I've seen that in, in other marriages that I know as well. Um, it's so interesting. I, yeah, I don't, I don't, I can't say I totally understand it.

I, I guess part of the reason I think, and I'm curious, what you think is just when you open yourself up on a heart level, like you said, not just physically, but really be vulnerable to someone. It brings up a lot of imperfections. It brings up a lot of baggage and brokenness that maybe we didn't have to deal with before marriage or before an intimate relationship.

So it's so interesting that I think that that is a trend like marriage seems to cause so many issues to, to surface for anyone. But I think, especially for people like us, I think there's several things at work. And one of 'em is maybe expectations and just what you thought marriage was gonna be. And it's never what, it's what you think it's gonna be.

And mm-hmm, people don't really talk about that. You know, you go to a wedding and everyone's all happy and stuff. And I wanna just, you know, shake 'em and say, oh, it's not what you think right. Like there there's some really good and beautiful parts to it, but it it's just like life it's there's ups and downs.

Right. And I think a lot of people go into marriage feeling. You know, this person's gonna be my savior or this person's gonna make everything right in my life. And that's, like I said, that's part of the expectations is that, you know, this person is my everything and everything that I I've been, you know, lonely, I've been, you know, insecure.

I've been. Whatever broken, forgotten, whatever through the divorce, and this is gonna make everything all right. And it's not, like you said, it's life, life is life, whether you're married or not married. And then the other thing is that it really shows that other person is a reflection of all your faults, because the way that they react to you and what you're doing, um, and it's just like holding up a mirror to yourself and all these things that either you didn't realize were false, or you don't wanna admit, or you don't wanna look at yourself.

And so it kind of shines the light back on you through that other person. And, you know, oftentimes we don't like what we see mm-hmm so it, it makes it very difficult. But then also just, you know, I had a lot of anger and mistrust of men in general. And so, I mean, certainly I think that probably came out in my marriage and, um, Yeah.

Just having to, to really deal with that, with that anger. I mean, I was at one point, like I would cuss a lot in my head and that's something that I worked on, cuz even though I know it's in my head and nobody could hear it, but at the same time, you and I know that what's in your heart or in your thoughts, it, it comes out, it comes out in your, in your actions.

You, you really. Hide who you are or what's what's inside. So yes, I had to work on that because a large part of my marriage, I would just be cussing in my head sure, sure. No. And I think so many of us who come from broken families, like we didn't see a model of what marriage is supposed to look like. We, we saw actually a poor example.

And so when it's our turn, we just feel lost. We're like, how do I do this? Like, there's no manual with it. And maybe we got some guidance here or there, but overall it's almost foreign to us. Whereas someone who comes from an intact family though, I'm sure there's always struggles within marriage. They at least have this example, this positive example that was ingrained in their bones, so to speak.

And I, I think that's a huge, a huge thing that's missing for us. Absolutely. Um, but I think the trust thing. Is really big too beyond just like having an example of marriage, just not trusting people. You know, I think that really comes into play in marriage, but, um, oh, as far as the example of marriages. So it's interesting because you know, my mom was single for about seven years and then she got remarried.

She dated a lot, so there was a little instability there and then she got married and she's, you know, she's in a happy marriage, but my, um, my dad and my stepmom, they were like I said, soulmates. And so I did again, the dichotomy and the, in the finances, but also in the, in the love, because they're, even though my mom has a good relationship, my dad and my stepmom are what I call the one percenters.

Well, my dad passed a year and a half ago, but the one percenters of marriage were they're actually just, you know, completely head over heels in love. Soulmates, whatever, you know, I did have that example from them. And at the same time, it was kind of hard because my stepmom is the one that my dad left our family for

So should I be happy that they have this wonderful joyous marriage? Or should I not? So, I mean, even that caused even that caused some pain and at the same time, trying to celebrate that love and, and to have that as an example. So it was really a double edged sword there, but we did have, you know, some, some good examples.

Okay. No, that makes sense. And that's so confusing. Like, do you look to them as an example or not? Yeah, I, I totally hear you there. Yeah. What else would you add to how you saw the, the breakdown of their marriage affect. I don't know, the, the trust was probably the biggest thing. Like, and, um, well you have, you know, you've talked about loneliness and whatnot, but being able to make friends, male and female relationships were really not good.

And, and so, yeah, so that made, uh, gave me a lot of loneliness throughout my life. Just not having those really good connections, cuz it's one thing if your family separates, but if you have some good friends and good support groups, so, you know, that was the issue with me is that I didn't have any good mentors.

I didn't have any grandparents because they were all gone by the time I was five and I know grandparents can be a great resource for people. Um, we did have one family friend. I think I mentioned I was a latchkey kid when my, my parents divorced and my mom went back to work and I'm walking home from kindergarten by myself and letting myself in.

But most of the time, um, I stopped at our friend's house. So we had some very, very close family, friends, and their house was on the way back. So I was able to stop there and hang out for a while until my sisters got out of school. That was good. But I remember complaining one time to my sister about, you know, well, do you have a, did you have any mentors growing up?

Because I really, I felt like that would've been a huge benefit to me. She says, yeah, I had this person and I had this person. I had, you know, our stepmom who she's a lot closer to. And so she turned to her as a mentor and she had, um, a guy at the horse barn who was a mentor and I'm like, wow. I feel really, um, you know, like I really missed out cuz I didn't have anyone.

So I, you know, turned to writing a lot. I journal and write and all of that, which was. Which was very helpful. Yeah, there just, there wasn't a lot of structure. And then when I was growing up with my mom and then she got remarried and she married a military man mm. So I go from having pretty much zero structure or discipline or anything, and living in a household with a stepdad.

And of course I was angry and I was, you know, rebellious and all of those things and then kind of hit up against his, his personality. And that was scary for me. I saw a couple of. Small incidents, like where he took my step, uh, brother and, you know, shoved him against the wall. And, you know, for me, I was a very, very sensitive kid.

So any like tiny even hints of kind of violence or aggression are just really frightening to me. and so that just really scared me. So then I was, you know, living in this, this household now with a stepdad who I was afraid of for many years, and we're great now, but yeah, it was kind of a shock to my system.

Absolutely. No that that's a lot to deal with. And you mentioned also to me that you struggle with depression for years and just self-esteem issues and oh yeah. The, you know, the depression was pretty much chronic, lifelong, and. You know, it started to really lift in the last two or three years when I've been getting some healing.

And so, you know, there's a lot of things in your personality when you are, when you have trauma or, you know, childhood wounds that you think is who you are like, oh, I'm just a depressed person. And you don't realize, or I just have anxiety or I just a bad person who has no self discipline and I just party too much.

And you don't realize that some of these behaviors or actions, things that you attribute to your personality are actually part of your wound. Um, so I think that's really critical because, you know, I, um, I actually have some family history of mental illness. And so, especially with that going on, I thought, well, I'm just damaged.

I, I have a mental health issue or, you know, I thought I. I was convinced I, uh, was bipolar at one point because I would get very, very depressed sometimes lasting for, you know, a week or maybe longer. And then when I would come out of it, I would feel so good that it almost seemed like, you know, there were these extremes that I was, you know, maybe bipolar.

And, um, I don't know if that's the thing you can grow out. Per se I'm not a mental health expert, but, but I know that my depression was very bad and it's almost completely gone now. So I think your, your body protects you from things to some degree, you know, I don't, I don't know how that all works, but just that it's not, it's not permanent.

Some of these problems that you have, you know, they're not permanent and there are reasons for them, you didn't cause them, you were a victim to some degree of, of what happened to you in your childhood. And, and there is, there is hope for healing. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm no psychologists or neurobiologists either, but I think one of the things that I've learned that has been helpful to understand is that when you go through trauma, like you said, your brain experiences that trauma as if it's ongoing, unless you heal it, unless you process it, unless you kind of file it away, it, it, your brain's almost experiencing that continually throughout your life, cuz it doesn't have a sense of time.

The emotional part of your brain doesn't have a sense of time like we do in other parts of our brains. And so, um, that's just continuing on. So it makes sense. Again, there's other, there's many factors that go into chronic depression. I don't wanna simplify this too much. It makes sense that if, you know, we went through trauma and we never dealt with it, we never healed that we would continue feeling the way we did maybe when we were younger, when we went through the trauma immediately after the trauma.

So that makes sense to me that you experienced that in your story. And I'm so hopeful for all of the younger generation that has resources like restored and life giving wounds, because, you know, I didn't have that. And the fact that it's the voice of the children, you know, of divorce actually, and being able to share your stories and to be seen and heard.

And, um, I think that's amazing. So one of the problems that, so I just turned 55 and literally have just started to kind of get healing in the last 3, 4, 5 years. So I've lived with this for a very long time. And one of the things is that I always thought, what is, you know, what's wrong with me? Like my sisters, don't talk about it.

As being in the forefront of their life or having problems ongoing, although I can look at the relationships and lives and think, yes, they do, but Hmm. You know, as far as in their minds, they, they don't think they weren't thinking about it as much as I was. And it was, you know, I was always realizing that somehow the divorce was affecting me, although I didn't quite know how.

And so it was a terrible feeling, feeling like, you know, what is wrong with me? Like, I'm the only one that feels this in this world. And I didn't have, you know, your resource or no knew about you before. And, um, it was very lonely and isolating and I was, you know, very hard on myself because it's like, okay, there's something wrong with me.

And then when I became. Re immersed in the Catholic faith, they talk aloud about forgiveness. And so then it, I started working on forgiveness, which was great. It's a wonderful, uh, virtue at the same time, I thought, what is wrong with me that I'm still thinking about this divorce? Is it that I don't have enough forgiveness for my parents?

And I, you know, I'm just a bad person because I can't forgive. And so that also was kind of a double edged sword as. Okay. I wanna forgive, but clearly I had a lot of wounds that hadn't been addressed, like you said, totally. And I relate to the mental illness thing as well. That runs in my family. My dad deals with it.

It's just such a difficult thing. And, uh, you, you know that when you said basically that we believe that our condition is our identity and we confuse that often, and one counselor that came on the show said, uh, those things that you feel, the brokenness that you feel, it's really just how you're doing.

It's not who you are. And it's important to remember, especially to anyone listening right now who maybe you're dealing with anxiety, depression, loneliness, any other range of issues, and you confuse that condition as your identity, but that's not the case. Absolutely. Yeah. And then, you know, the other thing is.

You know, I was very detached a lot. Like I just kind of felt like I was going through the motions in life. You know, I also really didn't care sometimes if I lived or died, I think that's part of the reason why I took a lot of risks and part of it was just because I'm physical. But, um, I would remember sometimes I, I would get mad and I would drive without a seatbelt or I just, I was never suicidal.

I know we talked about that. There's a lot of people, uh, children of divorce who are suicidal and I wasn't that, but at the same time, I took a lot of risks, almost like tempting death, you know, and yeah, and really getting into like a victim mentality. I know that some of it was a little bit maybe self-fulfilling and that you can get into this mentality and then that's all you see is, you know, everything that everybody does to you.

It's, you're the victim and, and that's, you know, that's not healthy, but at the same time, I really was. I think because I maybe didn't have strong boundaries and it's almost like total strangers could see my vulnerability or could see that. And so, you know, not just getting in that mentality, but having actually becoming somewhat of a victim in certain situations.

Right. Yeah. So you thought you were the only common denominator. Wow. So interesting. I, I wanna go back to something you said before you mentioned that that writing was one of the ways that you coped with the pain and even it was even healing for you. What were some other things that were healing for you, uh, following the breakdown in your family?

Well, um, I've always been really big on exercise and, um, outdoor activities and things like that. So I ran cross country for a while. I surfed a lot. I loved, I loved swimming in the ocean because. I love nature. And, and then just also the, the challenge of it and the fun of that. So I got into surfing when I was young.

Yeah. I've, you know, for my mental health exercise has always been huge. And then I was big into horses. My family was, and so I did some, and it also suited my need for speed and all of that. So I did what was called three day eventing, the third. So there's, um, you know, stadium jumping and there's dressage.

And then there's the third element, which is the speed and these huge obstacles. So it was timed and they timed you and ya. So they took points away for a few. You know, hit the op if the horse hit the obstacle or, you know, whatever. And so really suited my, uh, adrenaline needs. That was really fun, but yeah, and I loved to dance.

I was, uh, like, like a bars or clubs or whatever, but I just, I was a total dance aholic. And, um, that was a way for me to blow off steam, things like that. Just being outdoors, being physical, writing journaling, and. I wrote, you know, I've written quite a bit of few poems now, but before I was writing and I didn't know quite what they were, I thought they were songs.

They might be poems. I don't really know. And it took a long time. I, you know, probably in my forties when I took my first poetry class, and that was really amazing because all these little chicken scratches that I had all over everywhere in a million different journals, I was able to kind of make sense of, of an art form to apply them to.

And, and it was really amazing. And I, I learned something too about form poetry, which I thought, because I always wanted my freedom and I was that type of person who, you know, never wanted to have too much structure mm-hmm . And I found out for one thing for mental health structure is just really, really important.

And the people who most need it are the people who fight it the most as far as having structure in their lives. So it's really, really interesting. But as far as the poetry goes, there's something called form poems where they, you know, have specific rhyme schemes or syllables, uh, et cetera to follow. And I thought, well, that sounds too restricting.

But once I started doing it, I really saw the freedom within the boundaries and restrictions, which is also, I guess, kind of a metaphor for my life. You know, mm-hmm, because you can have, you know, when you have a structure to lean on, you can have a lot of freedom in that. And I think that's kind of what the Catholicism that I reengaged with does for me too.

It just, it gives me that kind of a moral structure or a guideline for living that I really was lacking. And as much as I thought, I. I just valued my freedom. I feel more free now having that structure. That's incredible. Yeah. So, you know, going back to the church was really huge for me. Yeah. How, how, in particular, I'm curious, like reengaging that faith, cuz uh, you know, there's a lot of people listening right now and people out in our culture in general who have, you know, real issues with, uh, religion and they just don't want anything to do with God.

And they see it as restricting and you're saying, no, it's actually freeing. I was, I was an atheist. My dad became atheist after the divorce and you know, I was my family. We were raised pro-choice. You know, you say the word God to me and I would cringe, like it's, you know, poison mm-hmm . I mean, that's how, that's how far on the spectrum of that I was, and then I just, I was always searching for something I just needed.

I knew I needed something in my life and wanted something more. And I just, I really didn't know what, and I was, you know, just trying to reach out, like, try on the faith kind of, and, you know, engage a little or talk to people of faith. And it didn't, you know, it's like a jacket that doesn't quite fit, right?

Like for many years I was like trying to, you know, make it fit. Like it was uncomfortable. It wasn't natural. And I just, one of the things, like I said, like before I even started listening to what the church was teaching, I had already learned what was working and what wasn't working in my life and already kind of.

Formed my own opinions about that. And then when I went back to the Catholic church, I realized that they were saying a lot of the things, not like I've discovered this because obviously it's 2000 years old. But, um, but they were saying a lot of things that I had already through trial and error and a lot of error and a lot of hardship had figured out for myself in my life, what works.

Yeah. And, and just the idea of, you know, living a moral life, having, I, I think where the freedom comes in the most is just the freedom that you feel, um, which really maybe at its core is peace. Like a, a, a clean conscience, something you don't, we're not walking around thinking, you know, that you, you have all this guilt on your back though.

You know, all of us have made mistakes and like we've talked about we're all hypocrites in some way. Yeah. I, I think, I think that's where a lot of the, the peace and the freedom comes from. It's just like, there, there is something too, uh, living a good life living life the right way, instead of just doing whatever you want.

There's so much emptiness in that, that, that I've experienced. And I know you have too. Yeah, for me, it was the piece of, of self control where I could, you know, when you don't have self control, you're. not really making your own choices. You're making choices out of either a pain or an addiction or something else.

But when you develop more self control, you're making more free choices and you just, you feel more free. Like you're actually choosing it and you're not just being run by some pre-programmed thing that something you're running away from or running to, or. You know, trying to find a magic pill for your life.

So, no, that's so good that self-mastery leads to freedom. I, I love that you obviously are very dedicated to continuing to heal and to grow, but you've made a lot of progress and it's inspiring to, to look at you and look at your life. And so, uh, yeah, I'm just curious, how is your life different now contrast that if you would, for us start with friends and support.

So, I mean, it used to be a chore trying to make friends. Like, I really didn't even know how to make friends. And when you, when you get out of like a college environment or, you know, some place where it's really easy to meet people, and I sometimes when you're a parent, you can make friends through your kids, but I had a kid who wasn't very social, so it kind of blew that for me.

sure. And so. You know, you don't realize sometimes how hard it is cuz when you're younger, it just seems kind of natural. You know, you're either on a sports team together or you go to school together or whatever and it just happens. And then when you become adults, so, you know, I moved here and it was actually really good for me to make a move as an adult, cuz then I had to work harder at it.

And you know, I'm on the internet Googling how to make friends, how to be a good friend, which sounds really absurd, but it's pretty cool. They had some good advice on there. So, but now that I've done some healing, even in the last two, three years, things just really started to fall into place. So naturally like, like effortless, completely effortless.

I'm just astounded. I had struggled so much and that it's now so effortless. It just kind of blows my mind. So, so that's in, you know, in the area of my marriage, you know, I had a very contentious marriage for probably 17 of the now 20 years. And we had some huge healing in our marriage. I would say miraculous, you know, that happened through my healing.

So the thing is, people always say, well, you can't change someone. You can't change. You know, you can't change the other person and that's true. But the thing you can do is change yourself and. A lot of times in a marriage, you're like, well, I'm not the problem. They're the problem. Why, why am I gonna go to therapy?

You know, the thing is everybody has some sort of childhood wound, not just adult children of divorce. Everybody does, you know, so I went to therapy and worked on myself and then you come back and you're behaving slightly different. You're just, you're healing. You're, you know, you're a different person and people have no.

But to react to that because we react off of each other and what we're giving each other mm-hmm . And I had started learning boundaries without even really having a name for that. It was just, you know, kind of speaking my mind and not, not holding things in and just all sorts of stuff, but, you know, my husband completely changed.

He did like 180 degree turn at one point, like was a completely different person. Wow. I mean, it was shocking to me from my healing. He, he shifted and changed as well. And we, you know, our marriage has improved tremendously. I'm also. More of a forgiving person. I used to hold grudges. Like for years I could hold a grudge.

I was the, I was the queen of grudges and , you know, making myself a victim. So I've lost that victim mentality and grudges and just, yeah, the depression's gone. I just have a lot more joy and beautiful. And I'm sure there's so much more that we could talk about when it comes to, to that. I, I did wanna go back to something you said before, uh, your depression, your, your, uh, seemingly chronic depression yeah.

Was just healed. Like, how did you do that? I, I think a lot of people listening right now are like, whoa, that's incredible. What happened there? Going into that a little bit more, if you would. Well, some of it's through therapy. I, I honestly think a large part of it was in healing of my marriage too, because that was causing me a lot of distress.

So. I'd say that's probably the biggest part of it. And the other thing is in, you know, when we talked about self discipline or self mastery, like trying to discipline my thoughts, for instance, if I would start going to a dark place, I mean, I would literally like, just stop myself and say, no, no, and you know, or whatever Satan be gone, whatever you have to tell yourself.

And I would just, I would stop that spiral of negative thoughts because that's just, it can really take a hold of you so easily. Um, so I, I really leaned on, on the church and the faith a lot for that to. To just kind of, yeah. Control my thoughts. Yeah. Not be a victim and it's not just not, it's not just a matter of like positive thinking.

You know, you really have to find the joy. Like in, in my marriage, there was a lot wrong and I had to learn how to trust all over again, trust my husband. And it wasn't just, I didn't have trust from being a child of divorce, which was there, but I also didn't trust him because he didn't fight fair. He wouldn't stay in the room and talk.

He would walk away from me. There was all sorts of very immature and harmful behavior that was going on. So when we were healing, like when he did his 180 turnaround, you know, he has a thing in business where it's like trust, but verify. And so it was kind of like that. I was like, well, when's the other shoe gonna drop?

When's he gonna change back like the Jacqueline hide to how he was or who he was and like, how can, how can someone change that radically? So it really took at least a year, maybe a little longer, but you know, at least a, a good year before I thought, wow, this is, this is really taking hold. He, this is real.

But in the meantime, like all these thoughts from the past would come up because like I said, I had lived a long, long time in a very bad marriage and I had to fight those thought. All the time and say, no, I'm, you know, I'm moving forward. I can, I can see with my eyes what's happening now. I can let the past go.

You know? And I don't need my mind to go there and remind me how bad it was, you know, mm-hmm cause it's cuz it's a new day and we're, and we're moving forward and I'm, I'm forgiving and I'm verifying that, you know, his actions are, are matching up with what he's saying and what I'm seeing. And. That was really, really difficult to try to kind of build trust where there was none.

Yeah. Not only that, but there, there was harm and there was yeah. All sorts of issues while that's incredible. I wanna go back and touch on relationships that it's appropriate that we're here now because I think something that's. So moving in your story, um, that, that you've explained to me is that, uh, a lot of.

The brokenness in your past was sexual in nature. Like you had a lot of sexual brokenness, but you've also found healing through your own sexuality, which is really beautiful in God's plan for sexuality, which is just amazing. You obviously grew up, you know, with the sexual revolution and there were just so there's so much confusion and so much misunderstanding, you know, on one end of the spectrum, there were people who were just living out their sexuality without any sort of limits or control.

And then on the other end, there were people who were, uh, very repressive and they looked down on sexuality. I thought it was bad and dirty and all this. So neither of those are right for anyone's listening, who like be confused. There is a middle ground and, uh, sex is good and beautiful, but it needs to be in its proper place.

Like you said so well before Sandy. Um, but yeah, if you would touch on that a little bit of how, yeah, just how that's played out in your own life and having made those mistakes and then now, uh, having found healing, especially in your marriage. Yeah. Well obviously, like I said before, you know, the. and then I don't wanna say like out of wedlock sex, but it was really just, you know, a sex where people were using each other and that kind of promiscuous sex was just so damaging.

So when I got married and we were having lots of problems also, and my husband too, I don't know, I think has some issues with feelings of being unloved or, you know, not having enough love. He needs a lot of, a lot of reassurance and a lot of attention. And anyways, so when we were having marital problems, you know, he was saying, well, everything's great.

Everything's great. Except for this, you know, we just need to work on this one point part of our marriage. And like I've said to other people, you know, you can't have. A hundred percent wonderful marriage over here, and then you have a bad sex life. It's like they go hand in hand. So, you know, he just wasn't able to see what I was seeing or understand, you know, kind of how bad our marriage was and that I was reacting to that.

Like, you know, how can I be attracted or be motivated to be with this person physically when they're treating me so badly, you. So the first therapy that we ever went to was a sex therapist. wow. And it was, it felt so forced. I really felt like I was being dragged there because I knew that there was more issues underneath and mm-hmm I thought this was kind of ridiculous, but I went, so that was interesting, but it didn't, it didn't ultimately help.

Okay. Yep. Yeah. Anyway, so, so when we were, when we finally went back to marriage therapy, I'd say, you know, maybe it was two, three years ago, and even that didn't help so much, but I did start to realize that I, I have an opinion about marriage, that, you know, how the sex goes is an indication of how the marriage is going.

You know, and, and I know a lot of people when my sisters and I started talking about this and she started talking to her friends, you know, there's quite a few people in married who have sex once a month. Or less. And it's, it's pretty interesting, but part of it with me is that I didn't understand how important it was.

Like I read this book called for women only, and it talks about the sexual needs of men, not just as a physical outlet, but how it really is part of their identity and their, their self-esteem, their confidence and everything wrapped up to it. And, you know, because I was in the habit of using men and them using me, you know, all I saw was.

Okay. It's just this physical part. Mm-hmm and it seemed kind of selfish. And I, especially cuz women usually don't have as much of a sex drive, so it just seemed kind of selfish on their part. And I had this, you know, idea of who men were and their sexuality, which really I kind of got enlightened by this book anyway.

Um, so yeah, we started, um, the, the funny thing is the therapist was trying to, you know, force us to kind of be more physical and, you know, let's draw, draw, um, days from a, a hat and we're gonna decide, and we're gonna schedule it and we're gonna do all this. And then at the time our relationship was so bad that that didn't really work out so well either mm-hmm but, um, it just, it really seemed like all the things that should have worked, you know, it's like going to therapy and going to a sex therapist and.

You know, let's have dates and let's, you know, pull names of the days of the week out of a hat and do all this. And, and it was just all really, really forced until we healed our relationship on a deeper level. You know, I do know that I, now I'm so much more, um, conscious of his needs sexually. Like I don't, I don't know how to say it.

Like I just, instead of like, oh, I have to do this duty, which sometimes, you know, wives feel it's more like, well, no, this is critical to him and his identity and his wellbeing. And so it's kind of, I've really shifted in my thinking about it. You know, if you love somebody and you're available to them, you know, emotionally and physically in marriage, you should be as well.

So, um, it's. . Yeah, I don't, I don't know what to say about that, but we, we definitely healed and I thought, I thought this is kind of my, my burden, because I had been so reckless with my body and my sexuality as a young person, I thought, you know, in the Catholic faith, a lot of times you talk about how your wound is your, is your path to healing or to salvation, or, you know, Absolut, things like that.

And so, so that's kind of how I looked at it. I'm like, we're really struggling in this area. You know, I don't know if it was caused by my past life or his past life or whatever, cuz he had some sexual sin in his first marriage, but whatever it is, this. Potentially the path forward. And so I kind of had to have a radical change in thought on that whole topic.

And I know people don't talk about that much either in marriage. So it's, it's probably an interesting, interesting topic. I'm glad you're talking about, because I think this needs to be said a lot of this stuff needs to be said. And what I've noticed too, in marriage is that, uh, from the women women's point of view, like what makes her want to have sex is emotional intimacy typically, right?

Yes. And for a man it's like, we just wanna have sex because we just wanna have sex. And that leads to emotional intimacy for us. Like we feel close to our wives because of that. So , someone's gotta start that, like the man has to make the effort to be emotionally intimate and then the, and the wife maybe perhaps needs to be a little bit more, not aggressive, but assertive.

You know, understanding, like you said, that, you know, her husband needs to be loved in this way, cuz so many men that sort of love language, physical touch and, and it's a team sport, right? It's not just one or the other. We both get on it together. Right. But I have noticed that, but what you're saying, so the men still do need, the emotional intimacy is just totally, it's just in a different order.

So, you know, it's definitely there and you know, I know that, you know, our sex life is not strained. You know, I realize how much. Yeah, actual intimacy. He feels from having, you know, that physical connection. And so there's definitely an emotional element to it for men as well. You know, it's a, they, they need to feel loved.

They need to feel attractive. They need to feel valued. I mean, it's just, you know, it's not just all about this physical thing. There's, there's a lot more to it emotionally. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I probably didn't say that as well as I could have. Like, what I was trying to say is like for the wives, emotional intimacy often leads to them wanting, having sex for men having sex alt often leads to them, wanting to be emotionally intimate with, uh, with their wives.

That's what I was trying to say. yes. Yes. So good. Was anything else that you would add on how, uh, the divorce affected. Your relationships, you touched on so many things already, but I just wanted to give you an opportunity to say any final thoughts on how, um, that had affected your relationships and even your marriage.

The one thing that I know is that I was very hopeless. A lot of times growing up I had was very cynical. I, I really didn't see any hope for my life. You know, cuz like we talked about earlier, I felt like this was my personality and all these faults I had and all, all these, you know, addictive behaviors and all the things that I couldn't change about myself for so many years.

And I just, I was really stuck in hopelessness. That's that's huge because it colors your whole life. You know, whether you have hope or don't have hope that you can change or things can be better, you know, because without hope what is there really? I don't know. yeah. Yeah. It was, it was big. I mean, I just, I'm just so grateful that.

I've had some healing that I've found the church that I found. Some things that work for me, cuz again, it was just, you know, it was getting from a practical point. Like my life's not working. I need to do something. I need something. Yeah. I don't know what it is. I definitely need something because this just can't continue the way it is.

It's it just, it wasn't workable. I mean, I know that sounds kind of like a practical way of thinking, but like really in practicality, like my life wasn't working. Absolutely. And, uh, yeah. That's where we live life in the practical , you know, they're like the abstract is important, but I I'm totally with you.

There it's like that. That's what really led me to change was just the emptiness that I felt. I was like, I don't wanna feel this way. I wanna be happy. Yeah. You kind of, kind of hit rock bottom or, you know, you make, you make a change, no matter how hard it is or whatever, you find a way to make a change because you realize that you deserve more and life has more to offer.

You wanna be a part of that, whatever that, whatever that life is, that's waiting for you. Yeah. And that could be so hard to believe when you're in the midst of like depression or just hopelessness and you're struggling and you feel broken. It's hard to believe, like there's even light at the end of the tunnel.

That life can be any different because often, like you said, we just fall into these cycles where maybe we maybe stop the reckless behavior for a little bit, but we kind of know in our bones, it's like, well, I'll be back soon. I'll be back to the drinking to sleeping around, to doing, you know, risky things to feel alive.

And, um, but, but you actually can have sustained change. Life can be better and different. And that's one of the things I love about your story. Sandy is, you know, you, you turn things around so much in your life by God's grace. Of course. I know you would say that, but yes, it, it's just amazing. And so, yeah, I, I'm so grateful for you.

Being here, uh, coming on the show, doing this long interview and just opening your heart to, to me and to everyone who's listening. I know it's gonna help so many people, if people wanna get in touch with you, how do they do that? Yeah, they can email me at Sandra Howlet, 25, icloud.com, a N D H O w L E T T five.

icloud.com. I know I have one blog that's coming out on life, giving wounds website and hopefully more so they'll be able to see some of my writing on there. Awesome. And I know you've written for us too, so we'll make sure to throw that into the show notes. If anyone wants more from, from Sandy. Thank you so much, Sandy.

Again, I just wanna give you the last word. What, what encouragement would you give to, to a young person listening right now who does feel very broken? Who feels stuck in life? Uh, because of the trauma they've been through in their own family. What, what words of encouragement would you give to them? I would just say never, ever, ever, ever give up.

that's all I can say that things can be better. Things will be better. Just figure out what you need to do to help your own healing. It doesn't happen on its own. You have to work hard. You have to work hard at relationships at marriages at healing. Healing's hard, it's vulnerable, you know, it's not, it's not easy.

People like to just. Think that they can forget things and move on, but you know, like, you know, in my story, if there's stuff there, you don't just move on, you have to deal with it and then you can move on. So, you know, take that. Big jump and, and deal with the hard stuff. And then, you know, hopefully it'll become less and less hard and you can have a beautiful life.

One thing that stuck with me that Sandy touched on is that feeling of hopelessness. I think we all face it, especially those of us who come from broken families. I know I've dealt with it personally and it's truly debilitating. And so when we feel that way, when you feel that. Just remember that there is always hope.

There's always hope, especially when things feel impossibly hopeless. Remember that night is darkest just before the Dawn. So hang in there. It can get better. In fact, if you work to heal and grow yourself like Sandy did, you will get better. You won't be able to avoid suffering in your life, but you will be better able to handle them.

If you heal and grow and you'll feel freer, you feel happier and you'll feel whole again. And I remember the words of GK Chesterton, who said hope, means hoping when everything. Seems hopeless. A question for you to think about is what's the simplest most basic thing that you can do where you are right now in life to begin or continue healing and growing.

Just one thing doesn't need to be huge. In fact, it's more important than you just take action, even if it's really small than doing something monumental. Because if we never act our lives, won't get better. We won't get better. So we need to take action. We have to put the work in. So what's the simplest most basic thing that you can do right now, where you are to begin or continue healing and growing.

One simple thing that we recommend is sharing your story. One of the benefits of sharing your story, that it's actually healing on a neuro biological level, it makes your brain healthier. And studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their. Are less depressed.

They're less anxious, they're healthier, they're happier. And if you share that story, either in writing or through talking to someone with someone else, that's additionally healing for your brain on a neurobiologic level, it makes you more whole, and by sharing your story, also, you give guidance and hope to people who may be going through the same things that you are, or you did in the past.

And so if you wanna share your story in written form, you can do that. Go to restored ministry.com/story. Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/story on there. You'll fill out a form. It'll guide you in telling a concise version of your story. It'll take a little bit of time to do that, and then we'll turn it into an anonymous blog article.

And so we'd love to hear your story. Go ahead and share your story today@restoredministry.com slash story, the resources mentioned are on the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 47. Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful. Please share this podcast with someone, you know, who could use and always.

You are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#046: Becoming a Great Parent: Learning from Your Parents’ Virtues and Vices | Miranda Henkel

What did you learn about parenting from your parents that you want to repeat with your kids? What do you not want to repeat?

The answers to those questions are extremely valuable in helping you become the best parent you can be. But sadly, most of us don’t dig deep enough. Today, we do by talking about:

• Our experiences as new parents with babies who haven’t been born yet

• Our fears about becoming parents

• Answer: Do we feel more confident about marriage or parenting?

• 6 things kids need from their parents and how to fill those needs

• Reflect on lessons learned from our parents, good and bad, and how we want to parent

Has Restored helped you? Let us know how.

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Why Your Family of Origin Impacts Your Life More Than Anything Else

• Contact Miranda at Miranda@RestoredMinistry.com

• Contact Joey at Joey@RestoredMinistry.com

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As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

What did you learn about parenting from your parents that you wanna repeat with your kids? What do you not wanna repeat? Those are important questions that sadly we don't really think about often. We don't really talk about much, but the answers. Are extremely valuable. It's something I've been reflecting on lately because in no time, my wife, Bridget, and I will be welcoming our baby girl into the world.

And I'm so excited. Can't wait to meet her. Can't wait to love on her. But as someone who comes from a broken family, becoming a dad, brings out a lot of fears and insecurities. And maybe because I don't wanna make the same mistakes that I saw on my parents make. And I know I'm not alone in feeling that we know that young people from broken families feel the same when it comes to becoming a mom or a dad.

So we wanted to do a podcast episode on this topic from the perspective of two new parents. And so I'm joined by Miranda. One of our team members at restored, who's been on the podcast before you met, recognize her, her husband, Steven, and her are expecting a baby girl as well. It's super exciting, really happy for them.

And so we thought it'd be helpful to share our experience of becoming parents to give you some hope that you can do it too, that you're capable of doing it. And hopefully even give some advice based on the lessons that we've learned. And so what you're gonna hear in this episode, we're gonna share our experiences as new parents, with babies who actually haven't been born yet.

We'll talk about our fears about becoming parents. And we are kind of an interesting question. Do we feel more confident about marriage or about parenting? We discuss the six things that kids need from their parents and how to fill those needs. And then we reflect on lessons that we've learned from our parents, the good and the bad and how we wanna parent our kids in the future.

And if you're not a parent, I want you to know that this episode is still for you. This is not just for parents or for new parents, but really anyone who hopes to be a parent one day, or maybe anyone who's really struggling to believe that they could be a good parent one day because of what they come from.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 46 today. I'm joined by one of our awesome team members here at restored Miranda.

Henkel. You might know her by Miranda Rodriguez. That's her maiden name? Miranda was born in Carus, Venezuela. Although she spent most of her childhood in North Carolina when she was 10, her family moved back to Venezuela where her life was changed forever. When her parents divorced a year later, shortly after she and her younger sister moved with her mother back to the United States and settled in Charleston, South Carolina Miranda graduated from Clemson university in 2015, moved back to Charleston where she met her husband and married him in 2020.

They now reside in Florida where her husband is stationed with the us Navy. She now works for ReSTOR to help other children of divorce heal and grow Miranda, enjoys the beach beer, trying to understand poetry and making fun of her husband. Before we dive into this conversation. I just wanna say that we're pretty raw and real in this conversation about our experiences as children and especially the way that our parents treated us and just wanna make it clear.

We don't wanna hurt them. In fact, Miranda. And I agreed that we usually go out of our way to protect our parents even perhaps to a fault. And so just wanna be super clear that we're not having this conversation to demonize our parents or any parents out there, but rather to, to learn from their good qualities, their virtues and their vices, their bad qualities, so that we can become the best parents that we can be.

And so, as you'll hear in the conversation, though, this conversation is pretty honest and vulnerable. We try to keep it very constructive and helpful in talking about this stuff. I hope it's beneficial to you, but please know that we're not here to make our parents look bad or to demonize them in any way.

And if this is helpful, we might continue doing this as our children grow up. As Miranda's little girl grows up and as my little girl grows up, this is a very important conversation. Here it is

Miranda. Good to have you back. Thanks, Joey. It's good to be here. How are you doing? How's your pregnancy going? I, I know, uh, we talk from time to time, but yeah. How are things going? They are going better. The first trimester was really tough but it's gotten second trimester has been a lot easier, which I'm really, really grateful for.

I, I think I was caught off guard with the difficulty of pregnancy. Like you kind of hear about the different symptoms and what different women experience. Um, so it wasn't like a, it shouldn't have been a huge shock, but I think sure when you're going through it. it's just different. And I read this piece that kind of described it as like a moral bootcamp and that really resonated with me because you kind of, you do like start to learn a lot about self sacrifice, like continually putting the needs of someone else above yours.

Yeah. It's not, it's not easy. Um, and it, it definitely is kind of a stripping of things you maybe thought were important or like valued a whole lot for me, things like productivity, you know, making sure I was getting certain amount of stuff done during the day. And like things like, you know, what you weigh and you know, how much you're working out, like all that kind of changes.

And it's really important, you know, for you to. Like to be more cautious, I guess, like in terms of, you know, getting more sleep and eating well and not pushing yourself too hard physically, but letting go of those things has been harder than I, I thought, because I think more of my worth was attached to them than I realized.

Hmm. It's been, yeah, just like a humbling experience. Very, I think kind of purifying of, okay. Like these are things that I kind of thought that made me valuable and made me important and made me feel good about myself and now I don't have them or I have them, you know, to a lesser extent. So now what, and so, yeah, it's definitely been, and I think too, there are certain things in our culture that affect that mindset because, you know, beauty and, and health and all these things are really, really.

Valued. And so when you feel like you're falling short, because you're physically in kind of a different state than most people, it's just, yeah. It's like, wow. Like, you know, where is my place in society now? Hmm. And so it's just been a kind of interesting experience and I am starting to see the value in it.

Um, I'm starting to see like, okay. Like it, it is important to grow in virtue as you're getting ready to become a parent. And just in general, like, that's, that's just a good thing to do to grow as a person mm-hmm . Um, but especially as a mom, like, you know, you, you want to be selfless. And so all of this stuff is kind of preparing you for that, but yeah, it's, it's hard and, um, totally.

So, yeah, so it's overall, I'm doing well, and I'm definitely grateful that some of the really hard stuff from the first trimester has. Has gotten better. So. I'm really thankful for that. Um, but yeah, it's definitely kind of been an interesting, interesting four months. Yeah. So it's not just changes physically.

There's a lot of other, a lot of other things going on, um, inside you, which is good. That that's beautiful. It's so good to be challenged and to be growing like one of my greatest fears in life is just being complacent and comfortable and, you know, I definitely have to fight that frequently because it's just so easy in our world to become complacent and comfortable.

But, um, it's so good when you experience discomfort. I think because it, it often is maybe not always, but it often is the sun that you're growing something good is happening. So I'm glad to hear that. I mean, it's, uh, I'm sure not fun in the moment, but I think you'll look up and sounds like you already are and see.

Okay. I've made some progress. Yeah, no, I definitely think that, like you said, discomfort is kind of needed for growth. So it's just embracing the discomfort. Totally, totally. And I've heard that a lot about the first trimester and that's what Bridget experienced as well. So she was pretty sick during the first trimester.

We had a first pregnancy as you know, and that was actually worse in the first trimester, uh, for her like a lot of nausea and other things going on. And then, um, we had a miscarriage, which people I've said on the show before, and then, um, this pregnancy, so this is our second and things were a little bit better in the first trimester from my point of view, but maybe she was a different story, but it's uh, yeah.

Then second trimester got a lot better and now we're in the third and baby's just getting big and it's just getting more uncomfortable for her, but she feels pretty good, which is. Yeah, that's awesome. I wanna go back to some, you said quickly, which is just, I think so many of us attribute our value to some characteristic of ourselves, right?

Like growing up, I was athletic, like, like my whole family is, and I was never, you know, the greatest athlete didn't go pro in anything. I didn't go D one or anything like that, but I was a good athlete for, for where I was. And after, you know, I played a year of baseball in college and then after. Um, no, you know, sports aside from, you know, just messing around with friends or intermural sports in college.

And, um, it was a big change for me, cuz I was like, okay, I literally, that was such a big part of my identity and then it's gone and you know, I was used to being like the captain on the team and used to being good at sports. And then now I'm not really kind of in that environment at all. So it does challenge you to kind of redefine your identity, um, and challenges you to, uh, realize that maybe those things that I think are so important, aren't actually as important as I thought, right?

Yeah, no, that's totally a hundred percent true. And even the things that everyone else thinks are so important, maybe aren't that important so it's like totally. Yeah, it definitely it's one of those things that I don't think you would come to you, you may like intellectually understand, but until you have to kinda live without it.

You don't really face. You don't really confront that reality. Totally. And I think you, ladies face so much pressure from society to be perfect, to be smart and sexy and successful and all these things. And, uh, I think there is, yeah. When, when you're pregnant, obviously there's so many things that are changing.

Like you said, you're not able to do the things that you normally did, so you don't really fit that mold in the same way that maybe you once did. Um, and, uh, yeah, that can be really challenging, especially like I'm saying to someone who got a lot of their value, like you mentioned from maybe the way that they look or the things they were able to do, uh, physically like sports and all that stuff.

So it is, it is a big change. So I don't envy you. I'm glad, uh, things are going well. Yeah, and I'm definitely feeling better. So I'm really grateful for that. That's great. I wanted to ask, how do you feel about being a mom? Um, I'm definitely daunted. Um, I think just the level of self sacrifice that is clearly necessary, um, is something that is escapes me, you know, just, I don't, I can't, it's hard to fathom that level of just dying self.

And I do. I mean, I, I, it seems like it's something natural. It just because so many moms seem to embody that, um, it does seem like to a degree. Yeah, there it is kind of innate, so I'm like really like, okay, , we'll see, but I am intimidated by, by how much you really have to die to self and learn to. Yeah, put someone else first and I don't think it was, I, I remember so clearly having a conversation before I knew right before I knew I was pregnant with a friend and I was like, I had been reading mother Teresa.

I was like, yeah, like I really just want to give myself to something, you know, the, and I just thought it was so beautiful the way that she just totally gave herself for this ministry, you know, of helping the lepers in Calta and serving them. And I was, you know, I felt that longing and then like a month later or less, I, it started and, um, I didn't realize how attached I was to kind of my single, even though I wasn't single anymore, but you know, just the idea of like being able to do kind of whatever you want whenever you want.

And. yeah, like that independence, that freedom, that status almost of mm-hmm , you know, you're young and you're untethered all that stuff. And I did not realize how attached I was to those things until I started confronting the idea of motherhood. So overall. Wow. Yeah. It's a little like overwhelming, but, but I'm also hopeful, you know, that when the baby comes, there's gonna be more of a, it like just falling into place, you know, it just seems like so many moms.

I talk to just talk about the joy and the, I guess like sense of satisfaction that they get from, from motherhood. So it does seem like there's a lot of goodness there. It's just, I think when you haven't had a kid yet, mm-hmm , uh, even though you're, you know, even though I'm, I'm pregnant, It doesn't sink in the same way yet.

Totally. Yeah. We'll have to have this conversation again after our baby arrives and your baby arrives. Yes . So I'm sure it'll be a different conversation at that point. No, that, that makes so much sense. Like it's kind of the intimidation factor and I think. Coming from, you know, a broken home play, plays a role in this to, I thinking about kind of what I'm, uh, feeling about being a dad, a new dad, I would say I'm excited.

It's kind of surreal at the same time. It's like, wow. Like I have a baby, like that is unreal. Like how did this happen? yeah. And, uh, and yeah, just like you said, kind of overwhelming. Uh, but at the same time I feel ready. And I think part of the reason for that it may be kind of odd, but part of the reason for that is that, uh, in, in a way I've kind of played that parent role for my siblings, um, at different points in life.

And so it's kind of odd, but I do feel a little bit more confident about parenting than I did or do even about marriage . And so again, I, I think that experience I've had in the past, uh, does, does play a role cuz I'm. Number two of six, we have a big family. Mm-hmm so I, you know, at times when dad wasn't around, I just kind of assumed that role of being father in a way to, to my siblings.

So, yeah, kind of interesting. Um, I was telling someone about that lately and I don't know it is. Can you relate to that at all? About being more confident, maybe about parenting than about marriage? I would say. Yeah. Like I, I don't feel the same acute fear that I feel about marriage. Like I think with marriage, it was, it was really scary.

It was really almost painful in a way to think about cuz you think about all the ways it could go wrong and I don't feel that way with parenting. Um, I don't have that same phobia almost if you wanna call it that mm-hmm so I do feel in that regard a little bit more equipped. I do think our experiences were different because like you said, you're, you know, number two of six.

So you had several younger siblings that. You know, you really stepped up and had to kind, I take care of. And so you are more comfortable in that caretaker role. I think something I regret from yeah, like the divorce and, and how it all went down is that I do think I kind of neglected my little sister.

Like I was so caught up in just what I was feeling and how to cope and almost like isolated myself a little bit. And I do think Christina got, you know, she just, I think she got neglected a little bit, at least, you know, maybe not by my parents, but I feel like I could have been a better sister to her if I hadn't been kind of.

Dealing with certain emotional difficulties. So I don't think I'm, I don't think I feel the same level of confidence that you do. Um, because I kind of remember that experience and I wish I had handled it better. I think you were able to kind of assume the responsibility, you know, you weren't, wasn't really meant to be yours, like that should never have happened, but I think now you're more equipped going into parenthood because of that experience that you had.

Hmm. Yeah. No, well, let's hope so. maybe my feeling of confidence is like MIS founded, but I, uh, no, I, I hear what you're saying and that's a tricky spot to be in. Like you said, it's not your role to be Christina's parent, but you know, at the same time, right there, there's a certain gap maybe that needs to be filled and there's yeah, there there's of course your sibling relationship, which is hard.

And it's so tricky, just touching on this idea that we have to step into the parent role. Mm-hmm, , it's such a weird thing because I know for me, uh, there was just a season that I just had to do that in and I tried not to let it dictate my entire life, cuz I could have just never. Moved on with my, I know people like that.

Like I know people who, they just see that their family's really broken. They wanna be there for maybe mom or dad and their siblings. And they just like, don't move forward in life. Not that that's a bad thing. Like maybe in certain cases that's okay. But I've seen it be bad. Like I've seen it be detrimental because they're literally not moving on in life, not doing what they should be doing or what they feel called to be doing, because they feel the sense of obligation to be there.

Mm-hmm and so it's a tricky balance, but I like what I, what I typically tell people, if I'm talking to 'em about this is there might be a season in life where you have to fill that role. You're not supposed to. But if there's just that void and there's no other alternative, then you might just need to now, if there is an alternative, a good alternative, then that should be taken so that you can just be a kid, you can go through life and just grow up.

But if you can't find that alternative and you have to fill that role fully, or in some ways, then I personally think it's kind of a matter of necessity. It's like, okay, I just have to fill this role, even if it's not ideal. Um, but never wanna remain in that position. I'm curious what you think about that.

That's just kind of what I've come to over the years. Um, any thoughts on that? Well, I think it's one it's really like so cool that you had that awareness of like, you know, my siblings need me and I'm kind of it right now. You know, I, it's not supposed to be that way, but like you said, there's this void and I don't think I had that mental.

Awareness. Like, I don't think I'd ever clicked of like, oh yeah. Like my sister needs someone to help her with, with all this stuff. So I think, I think I do think that it's true. And I think that if you can realize that it's SU it is gonna be super helpful for them. And also, and you'll, yeah. I don't know if you'll, this will resonate with you or not, but sometimes when you help someone else, you know, it kind of helps mitigate your own grief in a way.

Mm. Yeah. It's something about, um, switching the focus to some, to another person and having a sense of like, okay, you know, X, Y, Z is falling apart. I can't do anything about that, but I can do this. You know, I can be there for this person. I can comfort or whatever it is. So I do think that in a way, like, again, like you said, it's not ideal, it's not, what's supposed to happen, but it could be beneficial, you know, mutually beneficial for, for your siblings and for yourself, if you're able to, to offer some comfort that way.

Totally. And I totally relate to what you're saying. In fact, that was really helpful for me. And one of my mentors communicated that to me, that, you know, one of the things that you can do to help heal is to take the focus off yourself. And there is a balance there. And I know, I know you would agree with this, that I think some people use that as an excuse, never to deal with their issues and never to heal, never to face their brokenness.

I think I I've certainly done that at times, but, uh, at the same time, I do think there's something very constructive and healthy about looking beyond your own pain. And one of my favorite movies, probably my, my favorite movie is Batman begins, um, a Batman fanatic. I love it. And in that movie, there's this great line.

Uh, Bruce is talking to his childhood friend, Rachel and Bruce had kind of been very bitter after his parents got, uh, shot and died. And he, you know, had been off to college. He went to like Princeton and he came back for the hearing of the guy who killed his parents. And basically he wanted to get revenge and kill the guy who, who shot his parents.

And anyway, without going too Mo too into the story, the, the guy ended up getting shot by someone else. And so Bruce, uh, was kind of relieved and grateful, but at the same time, he was disappointed that he couldn't do it. So the, the, what was going on in the story is that. For years, he was just so wrapped up in his own pain that he just didn't help anyone else.

He, he was just stuck in his own pain and Rachel challenged him and they were driving in the car and she's like brought him through a really bad part of Gotham. And she said, look beyond your own pain, Bruce. Like there there's, there are people who really need you. And that always stuck with me. And so I tried to do that, you know, growing up when I know I was dealing with things, but I knew that, okay, like I need to deal with those things, but at the same time, I can look beyond my own pain and help other people.

Totally. Yeah. No, that's a great example. Yeah. Sorry to go through all of that and begin, but you get the point, but. Yeah, I, uh, was also thinking just once you get to the point of leaving, it can be difficult too. Uh, it can, you can kind of create a void cuz if you're a crutch for your siblings or your mom or your dad, then once you pull away, like, are they gonna fall apart?

Like, what's it gonna look like? And so that was a big concern of mine. And I had to wrestle with, do I move on and just pursue my girlfriend at the time he was on my wife or do I kind of just stay at home and try to help out around here and all that. And so I really was conflicted with that as well. And what I came to was that it's could actually be more helpful to them in the long.

If you move on with your life and, and this isn't maybe true in every situation, like I said, there's seasons where you may be more needed, but I think, uh, one is you're modeling what it looks like to have a healthy life and, and to move on and to like live out your vocation. If you, you know, getting married to, to date and to get married and to build a family, like that's a beautiful thing.

In fact, as we've talked about a lot in the show, one of the most healing things for those of us who come from broken homes is to see healthy marriages and families. It's just so good for us. It starts to rewire that broken model that we have inside of us that says that, you know, love cant last, and this is how it looks typically and all that stuff.

So that's really good. But then also people need to learn how to stand in their own two feet. That's really important. And so I think that's a good lesson now that we're talking about parenting is that, you know, you never want to be the type of parent. Or parent role where someone's so relying on you, that they can't stand in their own two feet.

And so I think that's one of the dangers too, with filling that parent role is that you can become maybe too close to someone in an unhealthy way to where when you do pull away and move on with your life, like you should, uh, they can be left devastated. Yeah, absolutely. Let's go back to, uh, just talking about being a mom, I'm curious, what are some fears that you have about being a mom, especially someone who does come from a broken family?

I think the, the biggest one and it's probably the most obvious is like, how, how am I going to wound my kids? Yeah. It's just something that I, I feel like it comes up so often of like, oh yeah, like my mom or my dad, like, they didn't do this or they did this. And like, it affected me this way and you're like, oh my gosh.

So it's just, I think even really good parents. Do I don't know if it's fair to say, do some sort of damage, but like, you know, don't get it right. Perfect. Perfectly all the time. Mm-hmm . And so, and, and then I think a lot of times in whatever way they fall short, like there is kind of a, a repercussion and that doesn't mean that where you have no hope or that it's, um, impossible to be a good parent without being perfect.

But, um, it is something that looking back on yeah. Like my own childhood and especially the divorce and realizing that, you know, your parents really have a huge impact on just who you are as a person and the, the trajectory of your life. And so it's kind of like, yeah, like how, how am I going to, to hurt my kids?

You know, because I think as much as you try. Not to in one way or another, we're gonna, we're gonna miss the mark. So that's, I mean, you know, a little bit somber, but definitely something I wrestled with. Yeah. And then I think it's something else which this isn't really necessarily from my family. It's just kind of from observing society in general now, but like, I really, you know, want to raise kids who have good values and I've seen even really good, or at least parents that I deem to be, you know, really good people and, um, to be good parents I've seen even their kids, I guess, I don't know if lose the way is the right word way to put it, but just kind of not have a sound moral compass mm-hmm and it's like, wow, like, gosh, like these, these people who, who seem to be, you know, just good people and doing the best they can, like even.

You know, their kids somehow I think get a little lost sometimes. And so I think that's another fear I have is, is raising kids who, who don't have good values. And then I think it was Chris. I think it was him who said, you know, I thought I was a perfect parent until I had a kids. , you know, I think it's like my husband and I have a lot of conversations about like, oh yeah, like some people do this and we don't wanna do that.

Or, you know, X, Y, Z. And it it's really easy from where I'm standing right now to say, yeah, this, you know, as a parent, you should never do this. Or I can't believe people do this then I think once you have kids, like a lot of that goes out the window. I think it's just a lot hard. It's just not that black and white as you, as it seems, um, beforehand.

And I think, uh, cryonic was relating it to Rath specifically, like, I didn't know what Rath was until I had case. And I was like, oh my gosh, you know, like, it's hard to imagine, you know, like really losing your temper or something with, let's say a four year old or something mm-hmm . But I do think that it's something that, yeah, like it's, it's really challenging.

And I do think that I'm gonna be pushed in that regard. And so it's like, gosh, I hope I, you know, can I, can I handle this? Well, like, do I have what it takes to not lose it? So I think those are kind of the things that I have been kind. Percolating the past few months. Okay. No, that makes sense. And I would agree that in, you know, our parents I'm sure.

And I even know this, uh, there were just things in their lives when they were growing up, that their parents did to hurt them. And you know, it's not to demonize our grandparents or anything like that, but it's just, it's true. Like we just hurt people, especially those that we love the most. And it's so unfortunate, but it's just the broken world that we live in.

And we're gonna get to this in a little bit, but. It's really hopeful to know that it's okay. If you're not perfect, it's okay. If you hurt your child, it's okay. If you, um, fail at times, but what matters is of course making up and, uh, reestablishing that relationship and making things right. And we'll get to that in a little bit, but I couldn't agree more though, the relationship that you have with your parents growing up is the most important relationship in your life.

At least the most formative relationship in your life. And so it really is important to reflect on it and to think back like, okay, what was this like? And again, we're gonna get to that in a second, based on the podcast episode that we're gonna chat about with Adam Young, from the place we found ourselves, there's a lot of good things in there to, to talk about it, but you're so right.

About being a critic. Like it is so easy from the outside looking in to be critical. It's so easy. For example, , you know, where you just use example of podcasting, it's so easy to listen to a podcast and be like, ah, that was so annoying. Like the way that that guy talked or, you know, whatever the music and, uh, and yeah, there might be valid concern for those things, but it's like, okay, do you have a podcast?

Like, are you a pro in this area? Like, it's so easy to be a critical once you get in the midst of it, it's not as easy as it seems. And so I think that's true with parenting too. Like you said, once we're in the midst of it, um, it's gonna be different. So we'll see, we'll have this conversation again. in a little bit, and that's true though.

Yeah. Yeah. It would be, it would be great to kind of take people along this journey with us. Uh, some fears on, on my end, kinda as a dad. Same as you, like, I'm afraid how my brokenness will affect them. I'm afraid of how, you know, my imperfections devices that I struggle with are going to impact them. And yeah, man, it is so humbling and it definitely motivating to wanna work on yourself even more also.

Yeah. Yeah. Just in marriage too. It's like your kids are just absorbing on an unconscious level, everything you and your spouse do and say, and everything it's like overwhelming because literally without saying a word, you're teaching them how to love, and that is intimidating because you might not be very good at it.

And I know I'm not at times. And so like, man, I'm, I'm afraid how that is gonna affect them, uh, just as people, but also, you know, in the future, in their own relationship. So that, yeah, that is, uh, kind of scary. Do, do you relate on that front? Yeah. I mean, I, I, while you were saying that, I was like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

And I think my husband and I do think he is really good at being ch you know, charitable, um, in his actions. Like that's, I don't know. It's just very evident to me. And I'm like, I was thinking, he was like, yeah, like he must have learned that from his parents. I think it is a little daunting that they they're just little sponges.

Exactly. And they just take in so much. And I was with, um, my nephew this past weekend and, you know, seeing him chase after the tools that his dad and his granddad were using and then try to use them. , you know, you just see how much that they're taking in and, and yeah. It's like, you don't wanna mess this up.

It's not just about how you talk to them or what you say to them, or even how you treat them. It's so much about how. You are around them and how you treat your spouse and how you treat people around them that you don't like, you know? And so all those things it's like, yeah, it is a little daunting. It's.

Being put on stage, but the stakes are so much higher, you know? Totally. Yeah. It's game time. It's it's tough. And yeah, I, I think I, I wanted to say Miranda, you're gonna make a great mom and I know Steven's gonna make a great dad. And I think it's so important for those of us who come from broken homes, just to hear that and just receive that, cuz we are capable, you are capable of being a great parent.

And so I'm excited to see you grow in that role. I'm sure there'll be bumps along the way and that's be expected. But yeah, I think, and everyone listening, you're capable of, of being a great parent, you might have to work at it. You might fail a lot. You might need to, um, really grow in some areas of your life to get to that spot where you can be a, a good parent, but you are capable of it.

Yeah. Cuz I think a lot of times we probably believe and feel that, oh, I'm just so broken that I'm not capable of it. I never will be, but, but that's just a lie. Right. Yeah, you have to be hopeful. Absolutely. Another fear of mine. I guess it's more of a concern maybe than a fears, just how my kids will, um, just be impacted by my parents' divorce, how they're quote unquote, like grandchildren of divorce.

And, uh, one of my close friends, he was telling me about this recently, like his parents are together and, uh, you know, have a pretty good marriage and, uh, but his grandparents are divorced and he was just explaining how that's impacted, uh, him and, and especially his parents over the years. So I just, it's difficult to think that, you know, it'll be kind of confusing to her.

To to see like, oh, Hey, why are, you know, grandma and grandpa not together? Like, why don't they live in the same house? Yeah. It's just kind of breaks my heart to think this is this little girl who just will be asking these really legitimate questions. And there's really not a great answer for it. Yeah. I honestly hadn't really thought of that, but it's so true.

Yeah. So, and then some other things kind of that go along with that is just the drama and tension. I know different families are, are different. Some parents, uh, divorced parents get along pretty well, but I know there's always drama and tension at life events like birthdays and holidays. And like we had a baby shower recently.

I made the difficult decision to, uh, have two separate ones, one for mom, one for dad's side. And I, I kinda was going both ways cause my parents are getting along better now, which is good. But, um, I just felt like based on the past between our families, at my mom's side, my dad's side, it was gonna be more comfortable for the guests who were there and, and that just caused tension and it, it was difficult.

And my dad obviously had to plan a baby shower, which , you know, you know, it's not something a guy has to do every day. So that was just, just seeing that it was kind of a reminder, like, yep, there's gonna be more of this in the future, which is, uh, concerning. And then of course, you know, balancing everything out.

Spending time, you know, with each parent, cuz I think it just, you're your time. It's like, not that our parents don't love us and wanna see us, but once there's a grandchild, what I've seen with my friends who have grandkid or have kids and their parents like wanna see them, it's like, oh my gosh, there's no one.

They wanna see more than the grandchildren. so it's like then, you know, splitting that time between parents can be really difficult and there might be some hard feelings there if you maybe spend more time with mom than with dad and yeah, lots of challenges ahead. I'm hopeful that we'll be able to figure them out kind of as we go through those stages, but it's certainly not gonna be easy.

Absolutely. You mentioned before that, you know, even the best parents hurt their kids. And I think we all can agree that nobody's parents are perfect, but I think there is, um, something that we can learn from the good and the bad that we've been through some important lessons. And so I, I think we need to talk about this stuff.

It could be kind of uncomfortable, but I think it's, uh, if it's done out of a motivation to learn and to be better in the future, as opposed to just like bashing our parents, which you and I are not interested in doing then, uh, I think it's really good and helpful. So I wanna have that conversation right now.

Uh, MERTA, what did you learn about parenting from your parents that was good, that, that you would wanna repeat with your children? I do think they got a lot of things, right. And one of them was this idea of like the world doesn't revolve around you, you know, like you're not. , you're not the center of the universe.

Like you, um, are part of bigger reality and in a sense, like, it sounds harsh, but I think it's good for you to recognize that there's more going on than just what you're going through, what you're experiencing and people aren't always gonna play by your roles. You know, sometimes you have to kind of accommodate, you know, an objective morality or a truth that, that exists kind of apart from you or outside of just what you think or what you feel.

I think that was a good lesson for us, cuz I think we all learned pretty quickly, like, you know, to adapt to whatever situation we were in and to like work for whatever it is we wanted to, and like in line with that, another thing that they, you know, either directly or indirectly taught us was, you know, entitlement.

Can they get you anywhere? Like you, you're not owed certain things like good grades or success in work, or, you know, just whatever goals that you want to achieve. Like there are things that you need to work for. And it kind of, I think it was really healthy thing for us to learn at a young age because it made it less disappointing.

you know? Yeah. When you didn't get exactly what you wanted. Um, and it also kind of put in the idea of like, okay, maybe it didn't work out this time or, yeah, I didn't pan out the way I wanted to, but like, I can strive for a goal and I can still learn from my mistakes and, and keep persevering. So it wasn't like the end of the world.

If something didn't work out the way you wanted it to the first time. Because you're not owed it, you know, it's something that you, you can work for and grow through that experience, even failure, you know, that's something they can learn and grow from something else that was kind of, it seems trivial, but I think it was really good for us was like, we, we, we had to clean up after ourselves from a pretty young age.

Like I remember mom saying, you know, if you don't put this toy away, like I'm throw, I'm throwing it away. Ouch. . Yeah. And so, you know, as like a six year old, you're like, that's brutal, but I think it really like all three of us are like pretty, I, I do think like cleanliness an organization is really important.

Like I think it's important to just having a healthy life is just things being more or less ordered. Mm-hmm I think it helps you have clarity and peace. and I think that the three of us kind of, I mean, my brother to a lesser degree, but I think the three of us, you know, understand that like people aren't waiting around to serve us.

Like you, you know, you have to do your part and especially take responsibility for your actions and also just practically, you know, take care of the space that you're in, you know, because it matters. Totally. No, that's so good. Those are beautiful lessons. And, uh, you're you're number two of three. Is that right?

Yes. Yeah. Second child is the best just in case anyone was wondering, so nice work there, Miranda job. Um, and then you have one step-sister as. Correct. Okay. No, no. I just wanted to make sure everyone kind of knew. Yeah. Okay. Such good lessons. And I, I just love that. I think when we're born into this world, we kind of think that we're the center of the universe and in real ways we are at least for our parents, but eventually yeah, you're right.

We gotta kind of shake that and yeah, love what you were saying about entitlement and just learning like that personal responsibility. I think that's so good. And my along the lines for me was. Hard work. I, I learned that from my dad, for sure. He's the still the most hardworking man that I know he worked so hard and he was in construction all of his life.

And he is very good at what he did, he, what he does. And so learned a lot about having a good work ethic and like getting after it. Like you have to put the work in, you're not, you know, along with what you said, you're not just gonna be handed things in life. You have to go and work at it and you're probably gonna fail.

You're probably gonna get knocked down from time to time, but you just have to keep going. And so that was a great lesson from him. And then also, you know, my, my dad, he, yeah, he has his own demons, his own issues. But one of the things that I saw a lot, at least with like other people, uh, he's just so selfless.

Like he was always ready to go above and beyond for, for other people, which, which I always admired. And that again, kind of taught us, like you said, to take. Eyes off yourself and look out to, to other people. Well, my mom from my mom, I think I learned, um, how to be more of a critical thinker. This might sound kind of interesting, but she, uh, was kind of ahead of her time in a lot of ways.

She's not like a, a hippie by any means, but, um, but she was more of like a natural person in a time where that was just not very popular. Like now it's much more popular, but, um, in her time, like conventional medicine, not that she's not against it she's actually a nurse, but, but she was just a critical thinker about some basic assumptions that were made in like medicine such as breastfeeding.

Like it was not popular at all. At that time to breastfeed your child, it was popular to give them a bottle, to give them formula, to give them like cow smoke or goat smoke or something. And she figured out through, you know, talking 'em with other people that actually. This is best for the child to, to, to breastfeed.

And so I really admire her for that. And so she kind of taught me to, um, yeah, just like question things, like think critically, don't just go with the flow. Sometimes you're gonna have to go against the tide and it won't be easy, but it will be worth it. And so I, I really appreciate that as well. And she did, she prioritized us kids.

Uh, so well, she really, uh, we were the most important thing in her life and, you know, for better or for worse, she really, really put us at the top of her priority list and worked hard to, uh, make sure that we, you know, were loved and have what we need. And so I really appreciate that. And a along with that too, I learned her from her, the ability to just sacrifice, like she's been through a lot just with the whole breakdown of the family.

Uh, both my parents have, but especially her and I have seen her just. Be selfless lately you touched on before. So those are definitely a few things that I, I wanna repeat in my own parenting. That's awesome. That's so beautiful. And I, it reminds me of my grandmother. I, I told you she passed away last summer, but she was kind of that way too, where she didn't want to get an epidural.

And that was like, unheard of like that all the doctors were like, you have to, you know, and now people are, you know, a lot, it's a lot more, there's a lot more variety. People kind of see the good in, in getting the epidural, but also like the downside, but things like that, like, she was just kind of ahead of her time.

Like again, with the health concerns, you know, she kind of was like, always ahead of the curve a little bit with that. So it's kind of cool. That your mom was like that too, or is like that too. Yeah. Okay. No, that's so interesting. And I think there, there is a lot of wisdom that can be, I think, just passed down from generation to generation and, um, it, it is great to see like medicine kind of catching up with some of that stuff.

And then also, like you said, it's, I think we've gone to a point where where're aware of different risks and alternatives, and it's not always such like a clear cut decision. It's something that you need to weigh out and make a decision on. So I don't want anyone listening to us to think like you and I are totally against like medical intervention or anything.

No. Like medicine exists for a reason. It's like such a good thing, but just mentioning those few things. I think it's important to, to have a critical mind and not just go with the flow and go with whatever's popular because as we've seen, I mean, if you've studied history, you, you know that, uh, often what was popular was very, very bad.

Like not good. For, for anyone and ended up bringing about a ton of ruin and disaster. Whether you look at ancient Rome or I don't know, different civilizations throughout, you know, the history of the world, you can see how you really needed to be countercultural. And that's not easy at times on the flip side, what would you say that you don't wanna repeat?

So some of the bad things that you observed about parenting that, uh, that you definitely don't wanna do in your own parenting dismissiveness, I think was a big one. Like I just remember, and to be fair, I'm a pretty sensitive person and was probably, you know, I, I do like have a tendency of overreacting sometimes or being dramatic and I'm sure as a kid that was even more the case.

But I do remember a lot of times when I, you know, turned to one of my parents cuz I was heard or upset or. Angry, you know, there was a lot of either like you need to just deal with it or just a lack of empathy, I guess. And I think it's not, it wasn't malicious, obviously. I think it's just that they're different people and that it was just not understanding where I was coming from.

And I've found, I have seen myself fall into this, um, as an adult being impatient with other people when they're suffering, because I'm like, no, that's not a big deal. Or like you're X, Y, Z, instead of being receptive and empathizing with the other person. Cause regardless of whether, you know, it's merited or not what the person is asking for, like there's a bid there, which is for attention, for empathy, for love.

And I don't think denying them of that, you know, is ever the right, the right thing to do. And that doesn't mean. Not saying something that's not true or like coddling, but I do think there is a moment of, you know, you have to be there for them emotionally. And I think that that was something that my parents kind of had a hard time with just because of personality differences.

Totally. And then the other thing is, you know, our faith, we did go to church and, you know, I think my mom was pretty active, but I wish I had seen my dad take more of an active role in our prayer life and to kind of pray with us as a family. I think would've been really good. And, um, would've kind of instilled those values earlier on, in a deeper way.

So that's something that I wish I had seen my parents do was like pray together or, you know, just because my, my faith is a big part of my life and I, I wish it had. I had seen that modeled earlier on mm-hmm so that's kind of something that I'm hoping my kids will, will have the opportunity to see. Yeah, no, that's really insightful.

And I think it's helpful to, you know, identify those things and just be conscious of it and make a plan to do the opposite. And a lot of the things you said resonate with me, like my dad, especially was pretty emotionally distant and, uh, I think a big part of the reason for that was because he was just dealing with a lot of his own hurt and brokenness in life, not to make an excuse for it, but just to kind of understand it a little bit more.

And so I, I certainly can relate with that. I think, I dunno if this is helpful for people, but I think our parents' generation, uh, typically I think most, most of our parents' generation, maybe people listening, um, don't have like the parents in that same generation, but it's good to know that a lot of them were raised by like the world war II.

Generation like some of them, you know, great depression generation and man, they, those people just had to be very tough. It was very, very hard times. And so I think they, in a way maybe were better at the hard virtues and were maybe better at the soft virtues, like empathy, like you mentioned. And so, uh, I think it's good to keep that in mind.

Um, you know, obviously we wanna have both the, the hard virtues and the soft virtues and, uh, and by hard virtues, I mean, things like courage and prudence, like making good judgements and things like that. I, yeah, there's definitely it wasn't perfect, but they kind of just had that. Toughness because of what they've been through.

Like my grandfather, he fought in world war II for Italy under mu. And so, you know, he fought alongside the Nazis at one point and then the Nazis turned on the Italians and they took him all prisoners. And so like, I can't imagine being through that experience. And so, yeah. Was he a little bit rougher, rough around the edges?

He was, but he was like a very loving man at the same time, but it just makes sense, given what he's been through that he's maybe a little bit callous and again, not such a bad thing, but I think there is a balance there. And I, I think that's where we're seeing a lot more. Now we have a better understanding of parenting and people understand like the value of empathy.

I know Bernie brown talks about it all the time. And so I think it is really valuable, but some other things just from that I observed from my parents too, is my, my dad saw his role as basically just the provider. It's like, if I put food on the table, if I make money, keep the roof over the head. Like, that's my job.

I'm done check. And, you know, there's so much more to parenting than that, but that was one thing that I don't wanna repeat at all. You know, I wanna be present in my kids' lives and make sure that I'm just connecting with them on a, on a deep level. Another thing too, that I saw from my dad is that there was so much brokenness that, uh, he had still to deal with that it was such a distraction for him.

And so, uh, yeah, I wanna, that's partly why I've been, you know, so motivated to just work on myself and heal and yeah. Just continue to grow because I think, uh, that's just so important that has such a good foundation to being able to love and to look beyond your own pain. And, uh, like, like you said, I, I really wish that my dad would've been, uh, more involved in like our faith life and talking about important things.

Like we, even to this day, like I love my dad to death, but. Even to this day, like a lot of our conversations, aren't very deep. It's just, they're more surface level. They talk like he is good at what he does at work. So a lot of our conversations are about work and he finds, you know, a lot of value in that.

Um, as a, you know, provider or at least someone who's being productive. And so I definitely wanna make sure that I'm having those deep conversations. I think it's really important. And then just a couple other things from my dad, I saw, you know, his anger. I think men deal with this a lot, but women do too.

Just anger get the best of us. And, um, that's something that I'm, you know, of course working on myself is just, it's okay to feel anger. It's good to feel anger, but it's important that we keep it in check. And, um, another thing too, just saw how my parents, um, especially my dad. Kind of looked up to people who had a lot of things, uh, not that it's wrong to have money and to, you know, be successful at such a good thing in a lot of ways, but it just depends on how you use it.

And, um, he, I know kind of admired people like that. So basically he had this materialistic worldview where he thought, you know, the more things you have, the more money you have, the better that life will be the happier that you'll be. And I think our generation sees that that's just a really empty promise that doesn't work.

And so that's something I wanna make sure that, um, you know, I don't pass on my kids either. So lots there. Um, on my mom's side, I would say I'm just my example from her. We've had this debate recently, but, uh, I've literally talked to my mom about this, uh, where, you know, what do you put first, your kids or your spouse.

And she put her kids first. And I have no doubt that that played a role in the breakdown of the marriage. You know, I'm not plays in blame in her, but I'm just saying that that certainly had some sort of a role in it. And, uh, she still believes that that was the right call. And obviously there's a balance there.

You can't like completely neglect your kids to put your marriage first, but I know you and I both believe that, you know, the marriage first and, and that's actually really good for the kids. If you. Keep that as the priority, I've also seen her just tendency to control. And I, I think that comes from a place of being hurt, you know, going through a lot and even in her own life.

And I remember growing up, Brenda, I, yeah, she would like ask us to do certain things and, and I've had these conversations with her. So I'm not like gossiping about her. You know, she would tell us to do certain things and then maybe like spell out in, in like very detailed instructions, like how to do every piece of it, or, you know, even like take over once we started doing something and it just basically underneath, it was just this desire for control and I hated it.

I hated it. And, uh, I think we all struggle with control, especially those of us who've been through something traumatic. It was something where I remember joking with her once she was like, uh, I had recently started driving and I, I had been driving, I think for like a year or two, so that wasn't like super recent.

And, um, she was like asking me to, uh, go get gas at this particular gas station. And she was like, going through all this detail, like how to get there and all sorts of things. I'm like, mom, do you wanna just come like pump the gas for me as well? and so I, you know, I, we we've, we've tried over the years, like be like, mom, like you, you raised good kids.

Like we're capable of doing things, but I think that was always a struggle for her. Just that control. Yeah. And then just other things too, probably could keep going. Just the, uh, slow decision making. And I don't know if this is something that is a trend in people come from broken families, but I know, uh, my family is not very good at making quick decisions.

it like takes a long time and that's something I've tried to like work against like analysis paralysis, where I I've seen my mom not wanna make decisions because she's afraid of making the wrong choice, the wrong call. And that just, that, that impacts you as a kid that impacts you, uh, through life, especially if that's like what you're taught to like very, very carefully weigh every little decision, um, even when they don't really deserve that much time and attention.

So that, that was certainly something that, that I don't wanna repeat then lastly, I would say, uh, just how, you know, I observed things in my parents' marriage, uh, not exactly a parenting item, but it certainly affected us kids how they handled conflict. How, you know, they would argue, and it wasn't always like this, but a lot of times, uh, the majority of times there was an argument, it would get heated, it would get loud.

And then one, or both parents would just like go their separate ways and we never saw any sort of resolution. And so one of the things I learned from one of my mentors, who's a teacher at my college at FCAN university. Um, he was just explaining the importance of, if you have conflict in front of your kids, make sure you, you resolve it in front of your kids.

It's really, really, really, really, really important to do that. And we just didn't see that growing up. So say all that again, not to demonize my parents, but to say, okay, these were the shortcomings. These are things that I saw that I didn't like. And I wanna do them differently in, in my own parent. I wanna switch gears and talk about that, uh, episode that we mentioned.

So Adam Young has, uh, is a counselor out here in Colorado. He has the podcast called, uh, the place we find ourselves. Awesome, awesome podcast. I love it. I recommend it. And in episode two of that podcast, he, uh, teaches the six core needs. Relational needs that kids, uh, need their parents to fill. And the episode is titled why you are family of origin impacts your life more than anything else, profound and, and so true.

And so I, I wanna dive into that. We're just gonna talk about some of the things he talks about in the episode and, and just give some, uh, yeah. Commentary insight into what we experienced growing up and what we wanna do moving forward, uh, with our own kids. And when, when we talk about this episode, it's good to keep in mind that this stuff applies not just to like little infants and babies and like young children, but as you grow up, you know, as a child, as a teenager, even into your, you know, young adult years, like this stuff applies as well.

So you can kind of think of that as we kind of go through these things. But one of the things he starts in this in episode two of his podcast, he says that we all kind of have a hard time. Even if you come from a good family, we all have a hard time taking an honest look at how our parents treated us.

And he says that that's kind of instructive that that's, um, an interesting thing to, to keep in mind. And what he says though, is. A child needs their parents to get it right about 50% of the time, which I think, again, it's very consulting. It's good that you don't need to be perfect, but, but that's really the sign of like a good enough parent.

And so he lays out in this episode that the six needs that, uh, children have that, that they need their parents to fill. And the first thing he talks about is attunement, attunement. It's kind of this odd word. And, uh, what it basically means is your parent's ability to, um, read your emotional state. Okay.

Your ability to, to read your emotional state, like what's going on inside of you inside your heart, inside your mind, inside your body, your thoughts, your feelings. It doesn't mean you're a mind reader, but, um, just having an awareness and, uh, the core of attunement he says is not reading right? Every single time, not looking at your child and immediately knowing what they're experiencing, what they're feeling, what they're thinking and knowing like what they need, but really just recognizing when your child is feeling maybe unheard or, or unseen, and then pressing in to try to understand what's happening with the child.

And he says that it's in this process of attunement or I'm sorry of misattunement. And then reattunement that you come to feel safe with your parents as a child, that, that you come to feel that you can trust them, that they're there for you. And he says, one of the huge barriers to this, I'll just read this quote.

He said, A parent that is distracted by their own needs. Their own wants their own emotions, their own personal pain can't be attuned to their child's needs. And that goes right along with some of the things that Miranda. And I said before, and so. It makes sense. Miranda, you know, given the, what he said here that, um, divorce is so harmful to children.

And because in most cases, parents are kind of, you know, going to war with each other and they're just so focused on their own stuff, their own paying their own needs, that they tend to neglect the needs of. You know, their children and the people around them. So just reflecting on this in my own life, you know, I think my mom, uh, when we were kids did a really good job of being there for us of trying to do this whole attunement thing that he talks about.

But when the separation happened, uh, she would just so overwhelmed. She had to now fill her role as a mother, and then also fill the dad role of providing and, and doing all that at, you know, at that time in my family, at least. And so it just was so consuming for her that she wasn't able to be there for us to recognize like what was going on inside of us.

Cause a lot of us were, we were really hurting and when we ended up acting on in all sorts of ways, but she just was overwhelmed. Couldn't be there for us. Like one of the things for me I know was I was just hanging around with like really bad friends, like friends who weren't good for me. And she didn't really recognize.

Yeah, I don't blame her for it. I, I do wish, you know, something was done sooner, but that, that was one thing. And then for my dad, when it came to attunement, I just recognized that, um, this is something he really struggled with. Like I mentioned before, he was just very, I think, overwhelmed with a lot of his own demons and brokenness, and it was just hard for him to focus on us.

And I don't wanna say he did this horribly cuz I'm sure, you know, he did it, um, better than maybe I remember, but um, I know this was a particular, uh, struggle for him that this whole attunement thing, but what about you Miranda? Yeah, it is hard. And I think the divorce like D just throws everything for loop and you know, a caveat of this by saying that a like I'm not, I don't have a great memory of early childhood.

And so a lot of what I remember is after is like either during or after the divorce. So I think that, you know, whatever I have to say is unfortunately going to be a little skewed and especially because I think the negative sometimes. Ends up sticking a lot more than the positive. Totally. So, but yeah, I think similar to what you're saying, you know, mom was better at yeah.

Knowing what I was feeling, what I was thinking, I think, yeah, with the separation, she also was just kind of really caught up in, in what she was going through. And I think that at that point there was, I guess, a misattunement and I think that it led to a lot of issues and I definitely similar to what you, your experience was, you know, kind of started going down paths that I wish I hadn't, and that I wish a parent had been there to, to say, you know, this isn't good, this isn't healthy.

Mm-hmm but yeah, I do think mom was a little bit more aware. She was more in tune to what was going on with me on a daily basis. Dad, He's just more oblivious in general, you know, but on top of that, the fact that we didn't live together after separation, like exacerbated that so much more. So he was a lot more oblivious except on occasions when I was like, it was extremely vocal.

So, but that being said, I'm not someone who's, you know, super great at hiding my emotions anyway. So I do think they probably both picked up on more than I'm giving them credit for. But I do think that the divorce led to a break in attunement, which I think is just kind of almost inevitable, you know?

Yeah. And I think it's a, at the core of why there's so many problems with it and. That makes a ton of sense. And the, the second thing that Adam Young says is, um, that the, uh, the next need, the second need is, uh, responsiveness. We have, we need our parents to basically take action based on what they see.

And, and that's what responsiveness is, is just taking action. As a result of the attunement of, of like recognizing the emotional state of, of the child and every child, he says needs their parent to be responsive when that child feels distressed or mad or sad or afraid anything. And the, the parent in that case needs to offer comfort care kindness.

Um, and hopefully, you know, if there was a break in the relationship they wanna bring reconnection. And one of the things he says in the episode, which was kind of striking for me, he said, uh, a lot of us believe that our parents weren't attuned to us. They didn't even recognize what we were thinking and feeling because if they did, then that meant that they didn't care enough to do anything about it.

And, and that's hard. It's hard to swallow if, if that was the case. And so looking back kind of on my own childhood, um, my mom was definitely good kind of again, at being responsive, but again, the divorce pulled her away from her ability to do that. And she just had to deal with her own pain and, and, um, you know, her own issues.

And I think my dad struggled with this for, for a long time. And like I mentioned with my mom, the divorce made it worse as well. Um, so I'm curious on the responsiveness need. Um, how did you experience this? Yeah, I, I definitely think that that was a, that was a hard one. I think mom, because, you know, probably because of what she was going through, she was kind of like emotionally tapped out.

So I think sometimes, you know, she was attuned, she did see my frustration or anger or, or hurt or whatever. but her response was often kind of dismissive. I think she just going through something like that, like you just kind of lose the capacity to really be open to another person, another person suffering mm-hmm , um, especially when it seemed maybe trivial, you know, compared to what you're going through.

So I think, you know, that was hard. And then I think dad, he wasn't dismissive, uh, in the same sense. Like he wa he didn't get angry or kind of, he didn't say like, oh, you just need to, you know, get over it kind of thing. I, and I, and I think this is just him not knowing how to, how to respond, but a lot of times he would laugh.

Like he would, yeah. Like that was his gut response was just to make light of it. And it, again, like it wasn't malicious, it wasn't him being mean or anything like that. It was just, I think that was just like, he didn't understand. And so. That his response was, was to find humor in it, but it's unfortunate.

But again, it wasn't like a malicious thing, but I do think it was kind of hurtful. And so that's something else that, you know, I have to take into account. Like even if your three year old is crying because you know, they can't find their Teddy wear and you're like, you know, this is not a big deal. You know, it is a big deal to them and you have to be able to step into their shoes as hard as that can be sometimes and try to respond.

Appropriately like Adam Young talks about. Yeah. And then that brings us to the next need, which he says you needed your parents to engage. So the next need is engagement. And this is a little bit different than responsiveness. Responsiveness is basically their, uh, reaction or response to the attunement.

Engagement's a little bit more proactive. It's beyond a reaction beyond a response, at least based on my understanding of it. Uh, it's really, yeah. This proactive pursuit, this intention to, to genuinely know you as a child, deeply on a heart level. And in that episode, he quotes, uh, a neuroscientist Kirk Thompson, uh, who said each one of us comes into this world, looking for someone, looking for us.

It's profound. And, uh, he, Adam goes on to say that the results, uh, of a lack of engagement is feeling abandoned as abandonment. And he says the, you know, that the core of abandonment is not physical abandonment, but rather, uh, a lack of attunement, a lack of responsiveness and a lack of engagement from your parents.

And again, he quotes, uh, Kirk Thompson, who, who said, we can grow up in homes in which the food finds the table. The money finds the college funds and the family even finds the church each Sunday. But somehow our hearts remain undiscovered by the two people. We most need to know us, our parents. So again, looking at this, um, there, there's just a huge difference in both of my parents before the divorce and after the divorce, um, especially with my mom just being, you know, emotionally tapped out, like you said, and, uh, with my dad, I.

Always admired him. Uh, especially growing up, he was just like my hero and I always wanted more from him. I always wanted, you know, more approval. I wanted more attention, more time from him. I couldn't necessarily put my finger in it when I was a kid, but looking back and, uh, I remember he coached my older brother, Anthony in, uh, baseball.

So he was his baseball coach when he was like in middle school. And that was like a year or two away for me. When he could like coach me and remember me just being so excited, like my, I was so excited. I was just thrilled. We loved baseball growing up, played for years and yeah, I just could not wait for my dad to be my coach.

And then my parents separated and that never happened. And that was just devastating for me. It was really hard to just kind of miss out in that whole experience. And I know everyone listening I'm sure has experiences like that as well, that were just kind of taken from you, Rob from you. And so, yeah, I really did want my dad, especially to engage with me and, and that certainly was a whole that yeah, just wasn't filled, unfortunately.

Yeah, that is really hard. I, I think my, you know, my dad was always good, you know, even after the separation, he, he would call pretty much every day and he always, you know, asked me about my day and it was always very surface level. And I think that, you know, things with my dad have always been surface level for.

Always but most of the time, but he did, you know, he has pursued me in the sense that, you know, a lot of people don't hear from, from their parents every week, even mm-hmm , you know? And so he, he has been really consistent about that. I do remember even after the divorce, confiding and dad about things that were going on at school and, you know, drama and all that stuff, he was very receptive and, you know, definitely emphasized, you know, you can always talk to me about this kind of thing.

And unfortunately, I think as I got older, I just got more guarded around him. So I kind of, I think that was lost to a degree. And I think then he just didn't know how to, how to pursue, but he has always been really good about checking in and my mom, you know, she. , she was always very encouraging and I, I played violin for a long time and she was always very like supportive and encouraging of that and of my writing.

Um, so I definitely felt like seen and yeah, just that she really cared about, about me because of, of how much she encouraged me with those things that she knew I cared about. So I think that that was really good. I think, you know, on an emotional level, that's probably where, you know, there was a lack from both of them.

And again, I think part of it was just like what you were saying before of their generation and how they were raised. Um, and then I think part of it too, was. As we've been saying, like the divorce and what they've been going through and yeah. Being, being emotionally tapped out. So, so I do think there was good there.

Um, and I think that there was, you know, some struggles as well. Sure. No, that makes sense. Yeah. The next need is you needed your parents to regulate your affect and affect is again, kind of this funny word, but basically affect means your internal, emotional state. That felt sense of what's happening inside of you.

And that's what Adam Young explains that. And he says that there's kind of a range of feelings that we experience everything from, you know, numb and shut down to terrified and panicked kind of the heightened side of the spectrum. And so when you're stressed out, he says your affect is dysregulated.

That's how psychologists talk about it. And as children, we had very little ability to regulate our. To kind of recognize what was happening inside of us and do something about it. And infants, especially have zero ability to do that. They're completely reliant on their mother on their father. And so it's so important when we were children that if, um, we were hungry and tired or afraid that we had our parents there to soothe us, to comfort us, he says, and you know, even if we were getting numb or kind shut down, we needed someone there to stimulate us to prevent us from kind of going numb.

And yeah, he says, Adam Young says that to be effective at regulating your affect a parent needs to do basically all of the prior three things that we talked about, uh, attunement, responsiveness, and engagement. And by watching them do that for us, especially as young children, we learn to do it for ourselves.

And so, um, if that didn't happen, if your affect was not regulated, uh, then you would've been forced to do it yourself. If your parent didn't do it for you. And like I mentioned, If you're young, especially, uh, you don't have the ability to do that, or maybe you're going through something traumatic where there's a lot of overwhelming emotions.

You really need someone to walk through you with that who has more capacity to deal with those difficult things in your life. And if that didn't happen, then it leaves a lot of damage. And again, go into my own story. I, I felt this so much after the separation emotionally inside edge, it was just a mess and I didn't know how to deal with it like Miranda.

I'm sure you can relate. I was angry. I was depressed. I was anxious and I just found no comfort or relief in my parents, to be honest. And again, they were just so consumed, uh, with what was going on in their own lives that I ended up looking for comfort elsewhere, just trying to regulate, you know, my own affect, just deal with my own emotions by, you know, looking up porn.

By, you know, kind of diving into sports and just kind of escaping into, you know, just different things in my life. And so definitely, definitely had struggles there. And I think in some ways I still do, I'm made a lot of progress with this, but, um, it is, it's such a real need, isn't it? Yeah, no, it totally is.

And I think with, with my mom, a lot of times when I was angry and I expressed that, um, which I think she saw a lot more of that than my dad did after the separation. She, her response was to also get angry and I get it, you know, I think I, you know, I can kind of understand why that would be her response.

And I probably said some hurtful things. I mean, not probably, I, I, I think I do remember saying things that were, that were mean or hurtful, but like you said, you need someone when you're young to kind of help you learn how to. Manage your anger. And I think for me, you know, the response I got was like, I don't want this, you know, I don't wanna see this.

This is, this is wrong. I think dad was more when, you know, the few times that I did express strong emotions around him, he was more common wanting to help. Um, but I think the challenge has been feeling comfortable expressing those around him. And then there have been, like I said, a few times where he, he just didn't didn't respond well, you know, kind of made light of it.

And I think that kind of has stopped me from continuing to, yeah. To be open with open and honest with him. So I, from that, I think I kind of learned to suppress, especially when I was just hurting and to hide what I was feeling or at the very least not to talk about it. And I've seen that. Come to fruition a lot in my marriage.

And before that, when we, my husband and I were dating, just not wanting to talk about what I was feeling and that being really frustrating for him. He can tell something's wrong. He can tell, tell I'm upset, but I, I feel like I can't open up to him about it. Wow. That's profound. So yeah, you basically just learn that response to like regulate your affect and that carried into your own marriage and, and it makes so much sense.

And that brings us to the next need. Adam Young says that you needed your parents to be strong enough to handle. Negative emotions. And so he asked the question, you know, how did your parents react to your negative emotions? Like anger, sadness, fear, like, what did they do? And Miranda, you just talked about that.

He says that, you know, we needed them to like, we needed to be free. To express those negative emotions as children, knowing that we would be responded to in a positive way. And, and he says that you needed to know your emotions were accepted and allowed. And even to the point where you feel free to say, like I hit you or you're mean, or something kind of shocking and extreme without getting scolded or shamed or told that.

Know that wasn't appropriate. And this is kind of shocking to hear. I think a lot of parents struggle with this one because especially parents who wanna raise, I think this is almost everyone. Like you wanna raise good kids and having hearing them say these strong things, because they feel strongly about something can be really hard.

But I experienced that as well in my own family where, when I felt something strongly, I, especially on my dad's side, it was kind of the opposite with my dad. He would react kind of with the, a stronger emotion. Like if I felt angry, he would get even angrier. And so then I learned also to suppress and with my mom too, there was just kind of this sense that, okay, anger is bad because we've, you know, experienced, uh, in different ways.

People getting really angry and it not having a good, um, ending and. One of the things Adam Young said is that, uh, your child should feel free to express rage at you. So this kind of goes back to what you said before Miranda with like feeling wrath yet your, your child should feel free to express that rage at you.

And, um, one of the problems that he points at when it comes to this need, um, he says that perhaps your family was too fragile to bear the weight of your unedited soul. And, and this one really, really struck me well. And I think one of the things I saw, especially in my dad was, um, yeah, because he struggled with his own anger.

I tended to follow suit and then feel that, oh, I can't express anger to him because that would just evoke a greater anger. That would just not end well, well, I mean, I did, yeah. I kind of addressed that before, but I did, I was shocked when he kind of talked about, you know, the, the two stories of his little kids of how they express.

Their anger towards him. And, um, it's hard to imagine. Like I do think that that's heartbreaking, you know, as a parent, like, or, or it's just infuriating, you know, I'm glad he said that because I don't think, I would've thought that was the appropriate response. Cuz my thought would've been, you know, you need to be respectful.

You need to just treat your parents, you know, with respect. And so, and not to say that they shouldn't, but you know, he is saying, you know, we tell, we need to allow room. We need to allow them the space to experience breath, and then to teach them how to, how to handle it. But it was kind of, it did catch me off guard when, when he talked about, you know, like it's okay for them to.

To express that and it's okay for them to almost like, let it out, you know, on you, um, whatever they're experiencing and it's not something to me, it didn't seem something that was very intuitive and maybe that's just cuz of my own experience, but I was definitely, yeah, just kind of taken aback a little bit me as well.

Yeah. And, um, Yeah. Just, I think like you were saying just the results. If we don't feel that freedom is suppression and that's always gonna come out in some other way. And so I think it's, it's better to, like you said, to be there with your kids in those difficult emotions and teach them how to handle them and what to do, what action to take as a result of what they feel as opposed to just like shoving it away.

And then they're just gonna, like, we've been saying, they're gonna have to deal with it on their own. And, and that brings us to the last point, which is you needed your parents to, um, yeah. Have a willingness to repair when there was a disconnect when there was disconnection, uh, especially when they hurt you.

He says, and, and, uh, Adam Young says, this is a direct quote. He said, when your parents hurt you, did they own and rectify, rectify the harm they did. A healthy, trusting attachment is not built on the absence of failure. All parents fail many, many times a healthy relationship is not built on the absence of failure, but on the willingness of the parent to own and rectify the failures.

When they do occur. And so he just, again, emphasizes that no parent gets it right. A hundred percent of the time, even the best parents, like you pointed out before Miranda. And he says, that's, that's no big deal. What really matters is that when there is a break in their relationship, when there is an issue, a misattunement, uh, that there is reattunement that we connect again, that there's re-engagement that things are made, right?

There's um, an apology, there's a conversation, something to reconnect, to bring comfort into the relationship. And, uh, growing up, my mom was pretty good at this actually at, at the reconnecting, she was, you know, willing to apologize, even if at times it was hard, uh, with my dad, this was a struggle. And I think a lot of men struggle with this because we tend to have these big egos.

I, you know, was thinking and preparing for this show. I was like trying to remember a time where he apologized for something, especially like that was bigger. And I, I struggled with that. And so I, I think he, you know, had a hard time admitting when he was at fault. And again, I think a lot of parents have this issue, especially fathers, maybe feeling like we can't show weakness or we're expected to get everything right.

And so we don't admit when we're wrong. And that was really damaging and inhibited caused us not to have that reconnection because there was just this whole line of things that were never addressed, that we were just like carrying around with us. So it's certainly it's this maybe is the most important of them all to, um, repair when there is, uh, that disconnect.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think for me, it was a little bit flipped. I mean, I had a lot more conflict with mom because. You know, I was with her more. Um, and she, she just wouldn't apologize. Um, we always had to be the ones to seek her out after a conflict. And I think that that's something that led me and my siblings to be extremely conflict diverse, cuz we were afraid of her anger and we were afraid of not, you know, getting the love back, you know?

And so yeah, I think that was hard. And then with dad, it was just, we, we really rarely fought because again, like I just, I didn't feel that closeness with him. So it was more like if it was fighting, it was more like I'm annoyed, you know? So it wasn't really a true fight that that required like a, an apology or something like that.

And yeah, so I, I don't, I don't think I really had an experience. I think the one time, you know, where. I felt like an apology was owed was, you know, when he, we had a conversation about the fact that he left, you know, left the family, but also left the country like right after the divorce and how that really affected me.

And, you know, for him, he couldn't see where he had done wrong. He just said, you know, I did what I had to do and it wasn't about you, you know, but I think I really needed a tea here, you know, I'm sorry that you felt abandoned. And I think it's just like a lack of understanding. So I do think that that repairing disconnect was a hard one for us.

Absolutely. So just to summarize everything, uh, the first need is attunement next responsiveness, third engagement. Fourth, uh, regulate your affect fifth strong enough to handle negative emotions and then six, uh, your parents' willingness to repair when there was disconnection. And so a lot to talk about here, but yeah.

How do we do this right. Miranda? What, what are we gonna do with our own kids in the future? Uh, a few thoughts on my end. Like some things I wanna do I think, to, to do this stuff right. To fill those six needs the right way, um, is just being really intentional about it. Just focusing on it, having that desire and keeping that front of mind.

Uh, I think also curiosity is needed, especially when it comes to atunement like paying attention to, you know, just different shifts and moods or things that are happening with your children and reading their faces and asking good questions and then digging deeper when something is kind of unclear.

You're not quite sure what's going on. And then I think another thing too is just prioritizing time with your children and just. Being a good parent and just understanding that, yeah, you can go work for 80 hours a week and make a ton of money, but you're gonna leave your children bankrupt, emotionally, if you are not there for them, you're not emotionally engaging with them.

So I think one of the things I think so hard for all of us, but especially for parents, is just letting go of the less important things because being a parent, uh, so I'm told I'm not one yet. Well, I am one now, but I don't have our baby here. It it's so important to make sure that we're spending lots of time, uh, with, with our kids.

And so those are a few things. I think a growth mindset's really important as well. Just understanding that we can get better. We can change, we can grow. We're not stuck. And, uh, and then, like we mentioned at a few points, like healing our own brokenness so that we are not just passing that on to our kids are so consumed by it that we're damaging them or neglecting them.

And, uh, you know, having a plan too, with our kids, like I've heard some parents do individual date nights with their kids. Uh, we had, uh, Justin bad on this show who, uh, you know, runs daddy Saturday. So he spends like every Saturday with his kids, he spent over, I think it's 14,000 hours with his kids, which was just amazing, you know, when it comes to the negative emotions thing, I think it's so important to like tell your kids, this is one of the things I wanna really clearly communicate to my kids is that it's okay to have those negative emotions to feel them.

They're actually, they're there for a reason and we need to teach them that and teach them, uh, how to handle those well, and, and don't shame them when they feel them. There's nothing wrong with them. And then of course, you know, modeling, uh, in your marriage, like how to do all these things right between you and your spouse, like having that attunement with your spouse.

Obviously it's not the same as like a parent-child relationship, but just recognizing things. Healing the relationship, if something goes wrong and along with that is having the, uh, humility to admit when you're wrong and to make that relationship. Right. And, um, yeah, just to expect there to be breaks in the relationship, but then always be working toward it.

So, yeah, just in closing Miranda, what were some final thoughts that you would give to everyone, um, on how to do this? Right. And how you wanna do that right. In your own parenting. Yeah. I mean, I definitely think that everything you said is very true and I think it'll be very helpful. Um, I, I had present moment awareness kind of like what you said about paying attention.

Um, just trying to, to yeah. Be present, um, which I think can be hard, cuz like you said, we get distracted by a whole lot of things, but I think trying as much as possible to, to just be in the moment with your kids. I also think self care is important. Like I, I do. I do think it, you know, obviously you have to put your, your kids first, you know, they, they can't take, especially when they're really young, like they can't take care of themselves.

So you have to, you have to make sure that their needs are being met. But I do think that it's not an excuse to like stop taking care of yourself spiritually, physically, emotionally, you know? So if you, if there's some wounds you need to work on like, make time for therapy or, or journaling or, or something like that.

If, if you are feeling, you know, really tired, like, okay, like how can you get more sleep? Like how, you know, how can you make sure that you're, you're being the best parent that you can be? And a lot of that is just making sure that you are taken care of, like you're, you're taking care of yourself. You know, if, if you like setting aside time for prayer, just time to, you know, better yourself as a person.

I think that's really important. And. Yeah. If you have wounds, like you said, like struggles, which we all do taking the time to, to work through those. And if you're not, if you don't know where to start, if you're overwhelmed, like asking for help. Um, I think empathizing is really important, um, learning that's skill, which it can be learned, you know, if, if we're not there yet, that's okay.

But, um, more and more trying to step into the experience of other people and especially of our kids. I think, you know, trying not to take things personally, especially when your kids having a bad day, when there is a temper tantrum, when, you know, I think it sometimes does feel really personal mm-hmm . And so it's like, okay, like this isn't necessarily about me, you know, something's going on in their world.

That's causing them to be unhappy and trying to help them through that instead of getting defensive or upset because. You feel like they're making your life more difficult, having that space between the reaction and the response? I think those are, those are some things. And just remembering, like you have to set the example for how to handle emotion.

So like if you fly off the handle, when things don't go well, that's very likely that your kids are gonna learn to do that too. I think there is gonna be conflict. There is going to be hurt. And, you know, kind of like we, we were talking about with reconciliation, just always making sure that the kid knows that they're loved, you know, even when you're upset, even when you're disappointed, you know, I love you.

Even if it's, it's kind of tense right now, I love you. And that, you know, having the humility to, to, to apologize when, when you do mess up, because we all do and we all will. Yeah. I think those are some things. That could help with these six things that Adam Young talks about. So good Miranda, thanks for your insight.

Thanks for your time. I hope this has been helpful to all of you listening and definitely recommend listening to episode two of the place we find ourselves. If you wanna reflect on this more about how you, um, you know, have these needs filled, or maybe not filled by your parents growing up and what you can do in the future, uh, when it comes time for you to become a parent.

So Miranda, thank you so much for your time. Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me.

Thanks so much for listening. Definitely a long episode, but I hope it was valuable for you. My question for you to reflect on is what lessons did you learn from your parents that you wanna repeat with your own kids one day? And which ones do you not wanna repeat? Think about that. Give us some thought, write them down.

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