#048: Fear Became Reality: I Am Just Like My Father | Bart Schuchts

As a boy, Bart Schuchts thought his family was normal. But in reality, it was very broken. When he was five years old, his dad left after cheating on his mom. He remembers his mom crying herself to sleep at night. Seeing the devastation his dad left, he swore to never be like him. 

But in college, his worst fear came true. Sleeping around and using women, he realized: “I am just like my father.” Thankfully, his story didn’t end there. In this episode, he shares:

• How he overcame his anger, lust, depression, despair, and self-hate

• The hurt he felt from opening up to the wrong people about his struggles

• How he learned to have compassion for his father and even forgive him

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

So often our families look normal on the outside, but on the inside, they're very broken. And that was the experience of my guest today. As a little boy, he honestly thought his family was normal, but eventually it came to light that his dad was cheating on his mom. And following that affair, his dad just left the house, abandoning them.

When my guests were just five years old and he remembers his mom crying herself to sleep at night and seeing all this devastation, he swore never to be like his father. He swore never to hurt women the way that his dad had hurt his mom. But years later in college, his worst fear came true after sleeping around and using women, it hit him in the face.

I am just like my father. Now though he was tempted to despair. Thankfully, his story didn't end there. Eventually he turned everything around, but he shares how he struggled with anger, loss, depression, despair, and even self hate, but eventually was able to overcome those things. He talks about how opening up to the wrong people in his life was actually really harmful.

He explains what it felt like for the wound, from his dad's affair to be ripped open again. When his girlfriend cheated on him, he opens up about how eventually he learned to have compassion on his father and even forgive him to the point where they were able to rebuild their relationship. And in spite of all his brokenness, he talks about how he's been able to build a beautiful marriage, be a father and help people heal through his nonprofit.

Now I'm so excited to share this episode with you. It's such a powerful episode, such an inspiring story that honestly left me speechless at time. This man has suffered. He's made mistakes. He's looked despair right in the eye, but he's come through the other side. And so there's so much hope in this episode, especially if you feel.

Like he did, if you feel like giving up. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 40 Aiden. Today. I speak with Bart. Shoot. Bart is the founder of church on fire.

He has more than 28 years of ministry experience and has been associated with a John Pauli healing center since its inception. Following a desperate plea to God while in an NFL locker room, which you'll hear about in this show, Bart had a powerful encounter with God's love. He is a regular speaker with the John Pauli healing center and has been instrumental in the center's growth.

He's been married for over 25 years and has four children. Now guys, I'll be honest with you. Bart is so real. He's probably one of the most real men I've ever met. It's so inspiring. It's so helpful to talk with someone who's so real now, as you heard, he is a Catholic Christian. And so we talk about God, we talk about faith and if that's not you, if you're not open to anything like that, my challenge to you is this, listen with an open mind.

He's not here to force you into a relationship with God. He's just here to share his story. And I know that even if you don't believe in God, even if you're not open to that right now, you will get something out of this episode. In fact, I know you will relate to his experience a ton. If you don't want anything to do with God.

In fact, if you hate God, I know you're gonna relate to him. Here's my conversation with Bart shoots.

Hey, Bart, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for making time for this. Yeah, Joey, thanks for having me like so many people listening right now. Uh, you come from a broken home. Tell us about that. What happened and how did that impact. Oh, yeah. Joey, I don't know what you're talking about, man. I came from a perfect family.

like all of us, right? Yeah. Uh, you know, it's funny. I, I, I laugh about that, but you know, we actually believe that, which is crazy. I think next to the word deception was our family picture. If you Google that you're on there. Yeah. there we're, but you know, it is how it appeared growing up. My mom and dad, you know, had had seven kids and, uh, I was the second youngest.

Uh, my dad upper middle class worked. IBM, good. Solid family. Went to church, you know, just kind of your, from the outside, everything looked great. And yet when I was two, uh, as the story goes, uh, my mom found out that my father was having an affair and it just shattered everything. And by the time I was five, my dad walked out the door and, uh, we moved from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Down to Miami, which the way I would survive my life at that point was the life of survival. Uh, like you said, in a broken home, just not a lot of people on my street were from broken homes. I was one of the only, which added to my problem. And, uh, it just wasn't as prevalent, you know? And, and, uh, I remember I would go over to my friend's house, you know, and I'd watch them interacting with their fathers.

And I would just look at that and I'd be like, gosh, I don't even know what that's like, you know, mm-hmm . And, uh, I, I would go into my room, my mom's room at night as a little boy, and I'd watch her cry herself to sleep. And, uh, I just grew this deep anger and deep hatred for my father. And yeah. So it's just, it's, it's definitely, it's affected my entire life.

You know, I grew up with a lot of anger, a lot of he hatred, uh, depressed. Uh, disillusioned, just struggling with despair, feeling like I would never really have what I desire because I was a little boy. I desired dad, you know, and desire walked out the door when I was five years old. And, uh, yeah, that, that deeply impacted me and it affected my entire life.

And for most of my life dealt with anger, you know, uh, I wouldn't even say dealt with anger. I just lived out of anger. Yeah. I just kinda angry at the world, you know, just, uh, feeling alone and if it's gonna get done, it's up to me, you know, just all kind of things and just constantly striving, uh, which, which worked as a fuel in my dreams of being a professional athlete, but it, it was destructive, you know, just beating.

At my interior of my heart. Wow. Yeah. And on that last point, that's, um, kind of tricky, a tricky situation because you, in one way, like you said, it worked and so you were affirmed in continuing that behavior because, um, did you played professional sports, right? You played in football, um, in the NFL. Yeah.

Well, I played, uh, college football at Florida state and then had a chance at my childhood dream of playing in the NFL, uh, when I was with the Tempe Buccaneers. Wow. Uh, in camp is actually when my life took a major detour, uh, for the better, but it was the end of that dream in the beginnings of other things.

But yeah, so, and then I played arena football, which is, uh, one is, uh, not heard of arena football. The way I describe it is if you. Get beer thrown on you and make no money play arena football. it was indoor professional football. And I did that for four years. Okay. Wow, incredible. So you, you reached a very high level in the athletic world, so, you know, it's, it's interesting to see like your idea of like self sufficiency and just pushing yourself and living out of that drive that anger that you felt, um, it worked in a way.

And so that was probably confusing, um, in other areas of your life, where it was destructive. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, you know, it, it, by, by outward appearance, you know, not much like my family growing up by outward appearance, things looked great. You know, I remember I was at Florida state. People would say, gosh, you have it made, you know, you're playing in front of whatever.

We had 70,000, 80,000 fans. And, you know, back when I played 1987, uh, we finished 11 and one my senior year. Uh, wow. We finished number two in the country and you know, we played major games, you know, national TV all the time, big, big time games, big time moments. And yeah, from the outside, everything looked great.

And, and I was, I was putting on that facade, you know, and, and, uh, everything looked great. But what people didn't know is when I was alone in my room, And, uh, the, the self hatred, the shame, the, the depression, anger, fear, disillusionment to life, all the things that were there when I was a little kid, uh, would pop up when I was alone in my room, you know, kind of like ping pong balls.

If you tried to hold a ping pong ball, the water it's gonna come up, you know, mm-hmm and, uh, these things would pop up, but I would just ignore them and just go, no, man. And I would just go get busy. And, uh, just living the, the quote college life, you know, what everyone told me was the best years of your life, you know?

And I'd be like secretly in my heart. I'd be like, if these are the best years of my life, I don't know if I wanna live anymore. Cause I'm miserable. You know, that was, that was my interior reality externally. That's not what people saw. Wow. And that's so common. We've seen that a lot with people, especially who come from broken families, like.

On the exterior, we can actually be very successful people like high functioning, good in school, good at our jobs. Um, but like you said, on the insight, we're just like falling apart and, uh, and it's, unless you articulate that or, you know, bring someone in, be vulnerable. It's really hard to, for people to understand that.

Cuz they see things going well for you and, and, and how do you share it? You know, I remember several times going to some of my best friends, you know, uh, some of my teammates, I remember having some, you know, some deep open conversation, at least for what I was capable of at that time. And I remember going to one of my friends and going, man, don't you don't you ever just feel, you know, guilty or, or don't you ever just feel bad?

You know, like, you know, cuz I was just living this lost life and don't you ever feel depressed, you know? And he'd be like, he'd looked at me like what is wrong with you, man? What is wrong with you? So it's like, didn't exactly encourage me. To share it more, you know, like fortunately I had a brother, you know, my brother, Bob, who, uh, was, is, was a psychologist.

And so every once in a blue moon, I would give him a call, but honestly, I didn't wanna call him because he would always tell me about religion or, you know, God, or coming back to the church and be like, yeah, great, Bob, that's you a man. But I, I didn't, I didn't want to hear that. I wasn't in the place to hear that.

And, uh, I mean, he, he, he would give me great advice and great counsel as well, but that was interiorly of me. I was like, you know, I, I was hesitant to reach out, um, because I didn't want to hear that. I just wanted someone to gimme some answers and help me right now. Uh, in my, in my, I. Pain. And, uh, and, and my brother, Bob did help me a lot, but I, I just didn't reach out because I'm concerned that someone, everyone had an agenda, you know, they either were gonna tell me I was weird or there's something wrong with me.

Hey, get your act together, tough it up, you know, or, or, you know, try to get me to come to church or, or whatever, and just, I didn't really know of a place that I could just go and just go, Hey, I don't know what's going on inside of me. Can you just genuinely help me? yeah, man. I can relate so much with that.

I remember. Yeah. Like freshman in college, I was dating a girl and I just was going through a really rough time. Like for months I just felt numb. Just felt nothing. Mm-hmm , mm-hmm and dealt with anxiety and depression during that time. And I just didn't know how to articulate it to. I literally couldn't find the words and, and I'm, I was so afraid that if I opened up to her, she just wouldn't handle it.

Well, even though she was a great girl, um, she just came from such a different background, like a great family. She was like a very healthy and whole person. And I just felt like she wouldn't understand. And I didn't know how to go about that. And I, I really struggled to even understand what was going on inside of me.

Like you articulated so well, right there. So, yeah, man, it's a tough spot to be in. Ah, it's a tough spot. I remember a couple relationships that I had, you know, girls that I, you know, I loved, you know, one of 'em I thought I was gonna marry her and you know, we were close and, and I remember sharing some of this depression and, and some of these places, interiorly and boy, she just, she didn't know what to do, you know?

Yeah. She just went through, you know, and, uh, I think it was the beginning of the end of our relationship. She eventually cheated on me, you know? And then I had another girl, you know, it was just kind of infa. It was infatuation. I wouldn't even say it was love, you know, it was infatuation and a few months in, you know, I shared with her, you know, cause I just, I felt like, okay, here's some people I could share.

What's really going on inside of me. And I just, I shattered her image of me, you know, this exterior image and it wasn't long after that, you know, she says I've never loved somebody and hated somebody so much in my life. And then the relationship ended and I'm like, okay, I can't share this with anybody.

They're gonna reject me. Which was really the, the core of my wound anyway, you know, which I wasn't really in touch with, but abandonment, my father walked out the door, so just kept playing over and over and over again. I felt like I was in a trap. I didn't know how to get out. Wow. That is that's insane.

Honestly, it's so, so hard to go through because like you said, she was that that girl was more in love with the idea of you than you. Exactly. And so you learned that, okay. I'm just gonna be what people want me to be, what they need me to be. And that is so common. We see that left and right with people, young people come from broken saying it.

Yep. Good way of saying it. Yep. I want to go to what you said about the girl kind of withdrawing and then cheating on you. That is so devastating, especially cuz you saw that growing up, like you were cheated on in a very real way. Yeah. As a boy. Right? Talk about that. If you would, how did that impact you?

Yeah. Boy sh devastated me, you know, you know, here, I think I'm I found the one, you know, this is my freshman year of college. Like I, I found the one, you know, my intentions going into college was, you know, I wanna be a, I wanna be a good guy. You know, I wanna, I wanna reach my dreams. I wanna get married one day, have a family.

I wanna, you know, those were my intentions and, and honestly, a lot of it was I wanna be different than my dad. You know? Yeah. I don't wanna be like my dad, you know, in fact, I, I made a vow, which I didn't know much about, but, you know, I made a vow. I will never be like my father. I will never hurt a woman the way my father hurt my mother, you know?

And so I, I was determined. I'm gonna be different, you know, I'm not gonna be like that, man. You know, I'm gonna be different. And so here was, man, I meet this girl. I'm like, okay, here we are. You know, finally I met my wife. My first year of college is amazing. And, uh, and like I said, you know, a few months in, uh, I start disclosing some of these darker secret places in my heart and this place of depression and pain and, and, you know, she didn't know what to do with it, but she didn't say anything.

You know, she just kind of acted like it was normal, but I could feel her distance. I could feel, you know, that. And then the next year, so we went through summer and I was trying to get ahold of her and she wasn't returning my calls. I'm like, what's going. And then, uh, the next year I go back for, for football camp, we had to be there two weeks before all the other students for our practices.

And, uh, she was supposed to be back cuz she was a swimmer in college and, and uh, she wasn't back. And so I kept trying to call she wasn't returning my calls. Finally, she returns my call. And she says, yeah, I'm not coming back to school. And I found somebody else. I'm like, what do you mean? You found someone else?

You know, it's like, what are you talking about? And man, I couldn't, I couldn't function. I literally, I couldn't eat. I mean, for at least a week it felt like two and my emotions, my, it was just nodded up. I had stomach aches, you know, I was just, it was so deep. I was like, what the heck? And then I couldn't function.

And then football, I wasn't doing well. And it just was, you know, I, I kept making bad plays and it was, it was rough. It just, it impacted everything. And it just sunk me into a deep depression and it was like, oh my gosh. You know, I don't know if, I don't know if I can ever find wild. I don't know if I'll ever find what I'm looking for.

You know? And I wasn't connecting any of this to what happened when I was a kid or my upbringing. I wouldn't, you know, and I, I said, my upbringing. I had a great family. My mom, you know, she was amazing. She just loved us. She, she was, she provided all she could, but she couldn't make up for the Roy, you know, of, of the absence of my father who walked out when I was five.

But yeah, it just, all this stuff was just hitting those deeper places. I had no idea. I was just, I was just spiraling. I, I had no idea. And then I just had to toughen up, you know, and I learned from playing football, I was like, oh, you get you fall down, you get back up, you know? Okay. I'll, I'll get back up.

And so, you know, within a couple weeks, I'm back and I'm performing and you know, all the things you said before, you know, I'm just externally, I'm doing fine now. I'm doing good. You know, I'm experiencing some success, you know, but interiorly, gosh, train. Yeah. Uh, I hear you. It's just heart wrenching to, to hear and just I'm sure to think back that younger version of you just going through all that it, yeah, it just, it's so hard.

And that's so interesting. What you said about not connecting with connecting your current struggles or the struggles you were facing then with then with the, the issues and your past with your broken family. That's super common. We've seen like that lack of awareness, uh, seems to be everywhere and it takes some maturity.

It takes some awareness. Like I mentioned to really connect the dots. I'm just curious. Why, why is that? And how can someone. Go through that process who maybe is in that place of like, not, they're not aware. Um, how do they come to that awareness? Yeah, boy, that's a good question. I'm not sure I'm not, I don't know if there's a blueprint.

I mean, I sure. You know, it's, it's, um, I think it's a protective mechanism that we all have, you know, it's like we can, we can handle so much. And, and as people we're amazing, you know, our, our resiliency is, is amazing. You know, like some of the things that people gone through, I mean, makes, makes my story look like nothing.

And, uh, I mean, some of the things that I've heard over the years and some, you know, it's just like, oh my gosh, it's so painful. Just listen to, and I just think, you know, the, the way we're wired, the way we're built, you know, we're very resilient. You know, we can persevere, we can endure, we can, we can externally succeed and, and make things work for me.

It just all caught up to me. You know, it, it just, there just came a point. Like there was several times through college that I'd be like, okay, I gotta change, man. I gotta change. I didn't know how to change. I, I really did have change. I remember there was a time me and this, my friend, uh, he was an offensive lineman.

His nickname was peanut. He was a good old country boy, you know, from Georgia and big old boy. I mean, he was probably six, five by two 80, just massive built and wow, just a good old, good old boy and, uh, a good friend of mine. And I remember he and I one time, maybe that same year, maybe my freshman year of college, I don't remember.

I remember we were sitting out, you know, on a steps and, uh, he and I were having as deep a conversation as we were both capable at that time. Mm-hmm and I just, I was saying to him, I said, you know, I need to change, man. And he says, yep. Yep. and, uh, there was a leaf on the ground and, uh, I, I reached down and grabbed this leaf and I flipped it over.

I said, peanut, it's time, we turn over a new leaf. And he says, yep. Lasted about a month. That was, you know, that just typified my college years. I'm like, okay, I know I gotta change. I know I gotta change because after, after a few relationships ended, I, I came to the point of going love doesn't exist, you know, love doesn't exist.

And so I just lived for temple pleasure. Now I just walked away from everything I believed and valued and, and just gave up. I was so depressed and so discouraged. So disillusioned I there is gave up. And it was in that season and I would just feel guilty. And when I was alone in my room and full of shame and self hatred and all this stuff, and I was like, I gotta change.

And you know, I just didn't know how, honestly, I didn't know how until my senior year is like everything caught up to me and then it was like, oh gosh, okay. How do I change? You know, that, that, that, that was that work for me. You know? And I, I think for every one of us to answer your question, I just think that we each, we each have our own journeys, you know?

And the biggest thing I would say is never give up, never give up because, because there's gonna be answers, there are answers and, and you just have to keep persevering. And I knew that. And so I just kept going, you know, I, I, I, I, I entertained taking my life so many times and I was like, no, I'm not a quitter.

I'm not gonna do that. I'm never gonna quit. I'm gonna persevere. And, you know, little did I know, you know, that I would, I would make my way through it, but I, but I. Amazing. It's hard to, to know that in the moment. Right. Cause everything can just feel hopeless, but you're in a much better spot now. So yeah. I am curious what, what changed?

Like what happened? How did you eventually find healing? It sounds like it was a long journey, but, but what changed? Yeah. Yeah, it was, you know, and you know, through my four, actually five years of college, I, uh, I tried everything. Honestly. I tried everything. I mean, I got into positive mental attitude stuff and you know, and I'd put on this good, positive mental attitude and it worked, you know, I, I was able to succeed.

I would, uh, go to, you know, psychology. I tried, I tried everything I could think of, you know, relatively good things. I, I went to church a few times, you know, I, I, I would go and give it a shot and go to church. And that would last me about a week or a month, you know? And then I would go right back to my vomit, you know, by my vomit, as you know, after my freshman year, when I just gave up on love, it was just, it was just partying, womanizing, you know, just, just living.

Totally lost from who I really was. And just, it just totally just, I mean, a good guy externally, but just, just totally lost. So it was my senior year, you know, and I remember my dream was to play in the NFL. And so in the football field, I had some successes, ups and downs. Now it's my senior year and I'm starting on that team that I said eventually finished 11 and one number two in the country.

And I'm on track for my dream. And I'm like, this is great, you know? And, uh, got a bunch of friends and success and you know, the team's great, everything looks wonderful. First play of our second game. I got injured and I missed four games. And in that season I was confronted with my life and it had happened several times over the five years of my college journey.

But this one just feels like the last straw. And, um, I actually, I met this girl. And, uh, we're just talking at a, at a bar and, um, she we're hanging out for about 45 minutes, you know, or drinking and hanging out. And I had intentions, you know, and here we were, and, and she, uh, looks at me and she says, I hate you.

I'm like, what, well, what are you talking about? I mean, we just met, you know, and she says, not only do I hate you, my whole sorority hates you. And I was like, whoa, what do you mean? I mean, your sorority knows me. Yes. And then she mentions three girls. It is painful even to recall. I mean, this is probably 37 years ago, you know, and I, it's still painful.

And she says, you know, she mentions three girls. She says, because of you, each one of them tried to take their own lives and went, oh my God, you're kidding me. And I thought to myself, whoa, this isn't a game, man. And then what hit me? What hit me in that moment was, oh my gosh. I'm just like my father. You know, I made that vow.

I will never be like my father. I will never hurt a woman the way my father hurt my mother and I'm worse. And my self hatred man was just like, whew, all I just wanted to crawl under a rock and die. I didn't know what to say. I didn't know what to do. I just hated myself. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm a real jerk

And uh, and then this girl says to me, a beautiful girl, she says to me, besides I'm a Virgin, I was like, what? Tell me about this. I was intrigued. I was like, whoa. And I remembered back to when I was 18 years old. When I was in high school, I said to my buddies, when I get married, I wanna be a. And they, of course, you know, said that's a wonderful idea.

No, they laughed at me. They called me names. Uh, I mean, gosh, I will never say that again. Within a month of that, I had lost my virginity and then it, it, my story of the next six years, you know, uh, it caught up to me now and this girl says, I'm a Virgin. I'm like, oh my gosh. Wow. Is it possible? Like, is that even possible?

This girl obviously chose this, you know, like, is this even possible? And it just, it opened my eyes to like, hope. Like maybe my life could be different. Like maybe I can change. Maybe I really can change. Maybe I can marry someone. Maybe I can have a good marriage. Maybe I don't have to be like my father, maybe, maybe things can be different.

And, and that began a process. And then it was a few months later that I get invited to the Tempe buckers and as a free agent, which those listen to me, that just means, you know, you, you didn't get drafted. You were brought in, they, they paid you a little bit of money. And you have a chance to try out and make the team, but it's not a great chance, but I had a chance mm-hmm and so it was there, it was there in between practices, in the temp bay Buckner's locker room that my life radically changed.

And I don't know if you want me to go into that or not go into that, but that's, that's, that's what really happened. I needed something beyond myself. Uh, I think it's an alcoholics anonymous. They talk about a higher power. I needed something beyond myself to help me out of the pit that I was in. And I didn't know what it was.

I mean, I grew up with religion. I mean, I, I, I grew up, you know, my family went to church. I, I tried in college, but it, it, it, it wasn't clicking for me. It wasn't working. Uh, and it was there. It was there on the, on the, actually on the toilet. in the locker room, the Tempe Buccaneers on the, on the doorstep of my dream that I just came to an awakening and just said, uh, God, I don't even know if you will.

I really don't even know if you will. Uh, I need you to show me. If you're real, show me you're real. And that began a year of just things I never saw coming that were just so amazing and, and have, have radically changed my life. Wow. Incredible. Yeah. I, yeah. We'd, I'd love to hear, um, kind of where it went from there, from that locker room.

Yeah. So I I'm saying that prayer on the toilet , uh, in the locker room of template, bucking it a strange place, you know, for this to happen. Yeah. And, uh, and before, before I was, I was actually petting myself on the back going look, how far you come, man, look what you've overcome. You know, you're at the doorstep of your dream.

This is what you wanted since you were eight or nine years old, you know, I was just kind of pat myself on the back and it hit me. I'm like, man, I'm M. I'm I'm miserable. Uh I'm I'm so depressed. I don't wanna live. This is what I thought would make me happy. This is what I thought every man wanted. And it's not enough.

And I don't know where to turn. I don't even know if I wanna live, what do I do? I wasn't gonna go talk to my teammates. mm-hmm, hasn't gone well for me in the past, you know, unfortunately. And, um, I was like, what am, what do I do? And sitting right there, I just, I cried out, like I said, I just said, okay, God, Hey, remember me?

You know, part here. I need to know if you're real. I mean, I know Jesus died for me 2000 years ago. I that's great, but what good does that do me right now? Mm-hmm I need to know if you're real and if you're real show you so real to me, if not. I don't wanna live anymore. I'm done. I'm worn out. So now it's a week later.

No one knows that that's just private in my own heart. And no one knows, like I said, this prayer and I, uh, a week later I get the dreaded call. My dream of playing in the NFL comes to an end. I go back to Tallahassee and here he is, again, my brother, Bob, eight years older than me. We're playing golf. And he's telling me about this men's week.

And he went to, and he's telling me about some of these guys' stories. He doesn't know. I had said this prayer. I I'd said, I said this prayer. And he's telling me about these men and I'm listening and he's surprised I'm listening because usually I'm like, yeah, Bob, that's your thing, but I'm listening. And then he says, Hey, Bob, we have another weekend coming up.

Would you like to go? And I remembered my prayer and I said, yeah, Bob, I'll go. Oh, really? You'll go. Yeah, I'll go. . And uh, you know, I jokingly say if, if Bob would've said you're gonna be on a weekend with 50 men. Who were gonna hug one another and say, I love you. I would've never gone. yeah. Right. I was not ready for that.

And, and, uh, but sure enough, here I am on this weekend with 50 men who are hugging one another and saying, I love you. And I was uncomfortable with that. I was stiff as a board, but you know, I was there and, uh, it is, it was 10 men shared their, their testimonies, kinda like I'm sharing now. And two of them deeply impacted me.

And, uh, one was a politician who talked about how he had been unfaithful to his wife and destroyed his family. I felt like my father was up there repenting. I was like, oh, this is touching me. Oh, this is strange, you know? Yeah. And then another man, uh, he was JC man of the year. He wanted to be JC man of the year and said for 10 years, I sacrificed my marriage, my children to be this business man of the year.

And he got invited to New York and among all the men, they call out his name. They hand him a plaque. He makes a speech. And as he is walking off the stage, he hears a voice in his head, said book in your hand. He said, I looked at my hand and I saw a piece of wood. With my name on it. And he said for this stinking piece of wood, I sacrificed my entire life.

He just wept. And he said everywhere, he went, he just started weeping. He would go to convenience store and he would just start weeping. Wow. And, uh, and then he said, all of a sudden, he just started feeling that's presence. And, uh, and, and so I'm listening and I'm like, okay, this is, this is interesting. Now it's Sunday.

And you're sitting around these tables. Have you ever been to one of these weekends? You know, there's, there was six men to a table, 50 men in the room and you're doing little things and a little skits and little things, you know, little, little too cheesy for me, to be honest with you. Mm-hmm I was there. I, I stayed and, um, and then you get letters from loved ones and, and, uh, Bob who's on the weekend with.

Writes me a letter. You, so Bob has always been in my life and influential in my life. Even growing up, he was the one stable one, you know, and he, uh, he was kind of a father figure in some way. He's eight years older than me. And, uh, here he is on the weekend with me and he writes me this letter and Bob says, bar, I just wanna let you know.

I love you. And I'm proud of you and I'm reading this going, what is he drinking? And what is he talking about? He loves me. I don't love me. He's proud of me. What are you proud of me for? I just failed at the only thing that I was good at. I'm I'm what do you mean? You know, and so I thought, well, I should thank him.

So I get up, he sees me, we meet in the middle of the room. The guy reminded me of my father and the politician was standing behind us. He says, you two brothers need to hug. And he pushed Bob and I together. And he just, the walls of my heart just collapsed. I just started sobbing. I don't remember having cried like that ever in my life.

And I'm sobbing. I mean, it was like a damn broke open, and I'm sobbing in Bob's arms, just wailing and Bob's crying. And I look around the room and every man's crying and I, I feel this presence fill the room and I'm like, whoa, this feels great. What is this? You know, and I'm, I'm just sobbing. And then interiorly, I hear this voice and, and I know it's God.

He says, Bart, I'm your father. I'm a father to the fatherless and I love you. And I lost it and I just absolutely fell apart. And I was like, whoa, man. And then there was a priest there and I went to confession and I mean, I unloaded all my mess and, uh, and I told him, I said, man, just, uh, a few weeks ago I was in the locker room with the Tempe buckers and I cried to God and I said, God, I need to know if you're real.

And today he showed himself real. I said, I wanna give my life to Christ. I wanna follow him for the rest of my life. That was 32, 33 years ago. And, uh, it's honestly, it's my biggest passion. And it is the reason my life changed. I mean, it was like in a moment I encountered what I've been looking for my whole life, which was love, you know, God doesn't just love us.

He is love itself. And I honestly, I didn't experience that in, in, in church. I didn't experience that in my Catholic school to be quite honest with you. Um, maybe it was my fault, but I, I, I never experienced that until. I was, what was I? 23, 24 years old. I'd come to the end of myself. And that's when it was almost like he was waiting for me.

And he is like, okay, now I can, now I can move. Now I can, now I can penetrate past these barriers, these walls and, and get down to his heart. I didn't realize all the walls that I had built up. I didn't realize all the self defenses that I had. I mean, if someone would've talked to me about God or told me about something, I would've, it would've been like, you know, to beware the dog sign, you know, they'd have got close with, oh, you know, I just, I didn't wanna hear it.

And, uh, I, I was just, I was hardened and I was, but it was, it was when the walls of my heart broke down, but it took some circumstances that honestly woke me up. And then, and then God had room to move in my heart. It wasn't religion that grabbed me. It was, it was God himself and, you know, good religion represents that good religion brings us into that kind of experience and the encounter, but it was, it was him, it was, it was his presence.

And, uh, it was, it, it changed me forever. Wow, incredible. So inspiring. And like you said, you know, if you would've tried to do this on your own or had someone try to orchestrate all this, it wouldn't have worked. And so it's amazing how, yeah, God, God works in mysterious ways. And it's so good to, to hear you were able to, to turn things around.

Cause there's so many people who go exactly through what you went through and they don't find that help and that hope and just devastating. It's so sad, Joey, it's so sad, you know, and, and I get it, you know, I get it. Um, but it's just so sad. It's so sad that, that one it's sad that, that we, as the church.

Have not done a better job of just representing that love. Yeah. Just being honest, you know, we gotta own that. We, we haven't done, we haven't done a good enough job of just bringing that presence and bringing people into an encounter and, and, and loving people, you know, so often we're judging, you know, I felt judged.

I felt judged growing up. I, I, I did, I did not feel, I did not feel the love now. People probably tried, you know, but my barriers were so thick that, you know, I didn't let them in, but it's, it's sad. You know, it's really sad. So many people are hurting and, and just needing, needing to be loved, needing to be seen, needing, to be heard, needing to be value.

And, uh, frankly, I don't, I don't think we've done a good job of that, you know? And I think that's changing. I think we're, we're waking up, but it's, you know, people like you, you know, that are, that are sharing the heart, you know, the, the things that really matter, you know, the depths of the heart, we all have a heart, you know, we all have that in common.

You know, we could talk about all the things that divide us, whether it's religion, whether it's race, whether it's politics, all that stuff. That's just the external garbage, you know, the reality is we all have a heart and when we meet each other at the place of the. That's that's when things really start to happen, at least that's, that's my story.

That's when things really happened and changed. Yeah. No, it's incredible. And I'm so inspired by you and your vulnerability and the work that you've done. It's incredible. And I, I wanna share that with our audience, with everyone listening right now, but before we get to that, let's talk about your father.

So obviously there was just a lot there, a lot of wounds there. Tell us, how did you overcome that, that hatred of your father? Oh yeah. Uh, and that's, that's, that's, that's a great question and a great, great journey. You know, as I said, I hated him. I, I, I, I hated him. I had no relationship with him. I don't remember him.

He left when I was. I had, there was times when I saw him and it just wasn't a pleasant experience. I didn't know him. Um, there was a time when I was 12 or 13, I went and visited him and that was good and painful at the same time. Cuz he just sat on his Lazyboy chair and here's this man who's called my dad.

I just want relationship with him. We did have an impactful, uh, conversation, but it was, I didn't, I didn't know him, you know, I didn't know him. And so here it was after I encountered God, the father, you know, and it had just, it changed. Um, it was a whole journey and I went to an Institute of ministry. I, I did a lot of things in that time.

Went through, got freedom from what I think probably was a sex addiction. And a lot of things changed in my heart. And in my life, there was a lot, a lot has, has happened in the last 33 years. But one of the things that happened, it was probably three, four years after that encounter that I just shared, I was just, I was just alone.

I actually went out into the woods for eight days. wow. With just a hammock, a tent, water, a journal in a Bible. And, uh, I, while I was there, one of the things God was speaking to me about was to forgive my father. And I was like, no, I can't forgive that, man. I actually had a name form. It started with an a and it would hold.

I said, there's no way I'm gonna forgive him. And, uh, and this is how candid I was with God. I'm like, no, I'm not forgiven him. I'm not forgive him. And then I, I read and I read a scripture and it says, unless you forgive, you will not be forgiven. And I honestly had the mindset of fine. Then you don't have to forgive me.

You know, I was not gonna forgive this man. I mean, I was like, no way. I felt like I was giving him, you know, a pass, like, oh, it's okay, dad, you know, it's okay. No, it's not okay. You ruined my, you ruined my life and no, I am not gonna forgive him. And, um, and, and I was just hard, man. It took me a while. It took me a while.

And then one day I was actually reading another scripture and it says a good tree produces good fruit, a bad tree produces bad food. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit and a bad tree cannot produce good food. And as I'm reading this, all of a sudden, I start looking over my family tree, my mom's side, my bad's side.

And I saw all the destruction, just the, the affairs, the divorces, the drugs, the alcohol, the womanizing, the, you know, the, you name it. I just was seeing it. It was like, whoa, my gosh, my family, tree's a mess. And you know, and, and we, we have a great family and, and, but yet. We all have our brokenness in our dysfunctions.

And it was like, it was just being magnified. And I was like, oh my gosh. And then I saw my own journey and I was like, oh man. And I'm some of the worst fruit on this tree. You know, I'm like nine college years were just horrible. And some reason in the midst of all this is I was just owning my own mess.

All of a sudden, I just had a compassion for my father. I was like, you know what? My father's just like me. He, he was lost and broken and, and didn't try, didn't know how to get past his own struggles. And that's what led to his decisions that were very destructive. And that's what led to my decisions that were very destructive.

And I was like, all of a sudden, I was just like, I was able to forgive him cuz I had already been forgiven a few years earlier. Jesus had forgiven me and I just felt cleansed. And yet I wasn't able to forgive my dad. And then here, all of a sudden I had this compassion and I was able to forgive him and it was just like this weight off of my shoulder.

So it's like, oh my gosh, you know, I have a compassion for my father. I, I get it. I understand. It's not okay. I understand, you know, forgiveness is one of those things. It's like, we think, okay, I'm gonna forgive and, and okay, that's getting them off the hook. There's no way I'm gonna forgive that person for what they did.

They grow my life. Now, I think true forgiveness is sitting down and counting the cost. You know, you gotta count a cost before you can forgive a debt, you know? And it's like, so it's like just sitting through and going, okay, dad, this is what you cost me. You know, you cost me my childhood. You cost me my, you cost me the, the pain I watched my mom and my siblings go through all the things that you cost me and my journey and my life, you know, my choice is yes, but you know, if you were there and then, and I just kind of went through it all in my, in my own head and my own imagination, I was just like, you know, and I just counted the cost.

I didn't hold back. I just, I just kind of let him have it in my imagination, you know? And then I was like, okay, all right. He's he's just like me. All right, dad. I forgive you. I didn't know this Bob had done similar around the same season of time. And then it was just a, a little while after this few months after this, uh, Bob reached out to my dad, my brother, Wayne who's two years older than me played football at Virginia and played, tried the NFL as well.

And his and my dream was to play in the NFL together, successful business man at the time and still is, but was, that was kind of his life not going to church. My brother, Dave, um, my brother, Dave, when my dad left, he was 13. He became a heroin addict in and out of prisons and, uh, just lost and, and is so Bob invites him.

He comes our half brother rich, who is the result of my father, uh, second marriage, which my mom didn't know about my brother-in-law Nick, my brother-in-law Ken and myself. We all went to this men's event that Bob invited us to, and everyone said, Wow. And here we are with our dad and we're under a gazebo.

My dad very close. We don't know him. I mean, here's this man called dad? I don't know. As a father, it's just really strange. And, um, we're sharing and talking and, and interacting. And we started asking our dad some hard questions because the nature of the, of the mens of it, he was open and he shared his childhood.

He shared the affairs. He shared his journey. He had regret. And, uh, and it was this real open conversation when this weekend ended. I didn't know this, but I'm with my brother, Wayne. And again, Wayne and I shared football together, but we didn't share it this level, that what was about to happen. And, uh, the phone rings and Wayne picks up the phone and I'm listening as well.

And it's our brother, Dave and our brother, Dave told Wayne and I that he had aids. He had gotten a hold of a dirty needle to heroine. It had gotten aids. And Wayne and I put the phone down, embraced one another and just started sobbing, sobbing. And, uh, it was just this brokenness. And then we watched our brother Dave go through this process of his body, just dwindling.

He actually lived his last year's and my brother Wayne's house in the process of his dying and suffering my father, my mother, all my siblings. Uh, we'd all gather at Wayne's house and to take care of Dave. I mean, just broken humbling times, you know, people having to bathe him, change him, shriveling down.

I mean, it just really difficult, painful time, but in the midst of that difficulty, We had healing as a family. Wow. We would cry in one another's arms. We would forgive our dad, sent us all a letter asking us to forgive him. And he was for being an alcoholic and his choices and the different things, and all this healing was happening and it was miraculous.

It was just amazing healing. And then after Dave died, Dave died on my brother Wade's birthday in his house, in my brother Bob's arms. And my father's arm breathed his last in my father's arms. And at his funeral, we all read excerpts from Dave's Bible. So babe, David had a change of life in this process and Dave would highlight these scriptures and then write these notes that it was his desire that his, his suffering, his illness would bring healing to our family.

And that's exactly what happened. Uh, very profound. Uh, and then, uh, started having a relationship with my father. We started going to men's events together. Some of the men's events, Bob and I would be speaking, I would share very candidly, some of the things I'm sharing now, uh, even more detail, the hatred that I had for my father, my father would be in the audience and people would go up to my father and they would say, how are you doing with this?

You know, how are you handling your sons being so candid about this? And our father's answer was, I think it's beautiful that God could take my mess and my mistakes and redeem it. And, and in turn he said, I'm so proud of my boys, you know, and just beautiful. And then his, his last year of life, I mean, there's just, there's so much more I could tell you, but just, just beautiful.

I mean, God's redemption is incredible and he's so real, so much more real than, than, than we even allow people to see . Yeah. Um, it just it's, it's, it's incredible. Uh, the forgiveness, I, I love my father. He, he died a couple years ago and just had a beautiful. Last month of his life, where he visited all his kids and just more healing and more things.

And I don't know if you want me to go in any of that, but it's just, they're all, you know, beautiful. Just, just beautiful things that God did. I mean that that's the only place I can give the credit. There's no way we could have orchestrated any of this amazing, like you're literally making me tear up.

It's just unbelievable how much change happened, how beautiful the transformation was of your family and, wow. Wow. I, I don't, I'm a little speechless, to be honest with you. Yeah. Yeah. So beautiful. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I'm sure we could talk forever. Sure. You have so many stories. I, I did wanna know, comparing your life now to what it was, you know, when you were in college, like contrast that for us.

Like, what is it like? I could never, I could never have imagined what my life would've been like two years past that point. I didn't know I was gonna live honestly. I was daily fighting just to, just to keep persevering and, and living. And thank God thank God. I never quit. You know, I never quit. That's one of my greatest strengths is I never quit.

I persevere, I get up, you know, I fall down, I get up, you know, and I'm so glad I I'm so glad I've had that. And, and you know, a lot of that's been instilled from my family, my mother, um, just to never quit, you know? And thank God. So yeah, man, here I am now 30 whatever years it is now later, I'm 57 years old, married to my wife, Brooke.

We've been married 25 years. We have four children, three girls, boy, 24, 20, about to be 2218 and then 15. I I'm, I'm traveling the country. Sharing my life, my story, hoping to do the same thing you were doing, which is bring hope in life and, and, and, and, and help help people, you know, help people. I just remember all the times, I just felt so hopeless and helpless and powerless and just, oh man.

And I wanna see, I wanna see, I want to give people hope, you know, but I know it's not by just giving them a bunch of nice things. It's it's, it's, it's it's by the power of God. Yeah. That's that's my passion. I'm I'm living a dream, living a dream. Amazing. Amazing. Like, God is good. It's so incredible to see that the change in your life.

And it's so inspiring too. I know you've given me hope and I know everyone listening, uh, as well. What would you say to someone listening right now? Who is moved by your story, but maybe they're like, I'm not ready for this God stuff. Yeah. What would you say to them? How can they heal? What steps can they take?

Yeah. I mean, I, I get it. I hope you hear that in my journey. I get it. And I get it. I wasn't ready for the God stuff either. You know, and honestly, in some ways I'm still not, you know, I don't like the way it's represented. Sometimes I don't like the way I represen him sometimes. You know, I, I, but, but he is our source of life.

I mean, he is, he is our source of life. He's one who created us. He's the one, he is the answer, but it's not necessarily the way he's been present. That, you know, it's and like I said earlier, you know, we need to own that. So forgive me on behalf of the church for misrepresenting him, because when you encounter him himself, when I encountered him in that moment, it was like, I realized, oh my gosh, this is what I've been looking for my whole life.

I've just been looking for the father's love. You know, he, he is the answer. He is the answer, but honestly just, just pay attention to your heart. No, don't, don't, don't put up all the, the walls and the facades. That's, that's, that's only hurting you, you know, a and as I know that from my own journey, it's only hurting you.

Yeah. You gotta be careful who you let in, you know, those vulnerable places, but there are people that can help and reach out, but just like me and the silence of your own. Just say God show me, show me, just lead me. Show me amazing. Amazing. I know, uh, you, like you said, you travel the country doing ministry and speaking to people.

Uh, what do you guys offer? How can people learn more about you if they want to? Yeah, well, I have, uh, I do, I, I work for two different ministries. One, uh, is with my brother, Bob JP two healing center. It's a JP small lives, uh, JP small life, small eye healing center.org. Uh, you can go on there and you can see all the events that we offer and different things we offer.

And then I have my own ministry, my own website. It's called church on fire.live. L I V E. You can go on there. I have online courses, uh, which are different sources, different tools I've won on knowing purpose and, and desire. I have other ones, an equipping material that I have. I have one that tells the story more in detail called encountering the father's love.

I have some from events that I had done, some things on there that I, I try to price low, so that make it available to people. You can go on there. Incredible. Okay. Thank you. I even saw some of those you were given away for free, which is super generous of you. And I wanted to, uh, yeah. Give you an opportunity to just share maybe one story of transformation that you've seen in helping people through your different ministries.

Uh, cuz I know you guys are super effective at what you do. And I just want people to know that if they were to work with you, that you know, maybe it wouldn't happen the same as the things that you've seen, but there is so much potential and hope there. So yeah. What, what sort of transformations have you seen in people who, who do work with you guys, man?

Uh, you know, Joey, I've seen so many things, uh, as you're asking, I'm trying to think of a specific detail. Maybe one will come as I share this. I I've seen, I've seen incredible things. I've seen miracles. I I've seen people, physically miraculously healed cancer. I've seen, uh, metal pins and plates in people's back and they were able to bend over and touch their toes for the first time in their life.

I've seen lives emotionally, radically changed none of this by my hand, or anyone else's hands all of this by the power of God. Um, this is what, this is what Jesus came to do. This is, this is the real, this is the real Jesus who, who, who came to set us free. You know, he says, uh, he whom the Lord sets free is free.

Indeed. You know, as you come to Christ, old things, pass away, all things are made new. You know, that's my story. You know, I've seen countless thousands of lives, uh, radically transformed at an emotional level. And just through, through God encountering them in very profound ways. You know, one, one little story.

That's just kind of a general one for those who are, who are churched and, and, and maybe not experiencing this, this, this tangible presence, but a guy just recently shared with me that he. Had been, he had gone to, he'd been a Catholic, his whole life gone to masses entire life. He's 60 years old. He had gone first through 12th grade Catholic schools.

And, uh, and he said, after an event, he said, I never know the presence of God like this. I've never felt his presence and the presence of holy spirit like this in my life. And I never really understood what it really meant to be Catholic until today. And I've been, I've been radically transformed. My life has been changed and, and, uh, I'm so excited to continue on, like, this people's lives.

We do events with priests and, and the healing they go through is profound. You know, people that, you know, whether you're in the church or not in the church, you know, from the media and the church is getting rocked with scandals. And, and we see that we've seen that on both sides. And we're seeing tremendous healing and transformation in individual's lives and countless people's lives.

And yeah, I mean, I, I, I'm just trying to think of some specifics, uh, beyond that, but no, that's incredible. To be honest, you, God's amazing. Yeah. God's amazing. Incredible, incredible. This is possible for every one of us, you know, and honestly, I mean, I. I don't mean to talk bad about it, but sometimes religion upsets me, you know, because we've represented this thing on this, this external source, you know, mm-hmm and, and, and it has to come from the depths of the being the heart has to come from the overflow of the life of the presence of God.

It has to be with the very presence. The holy spirit, the church even says to call upon the holy spirit every day. He is, he is the source of life. If you never walk into a church, you know, that's your choice, but just try, just sit there in your room or wherever you are and just say, come holy spirit, come Lord Jesus.

Just give him, give him a shot. Just invite him. . Yeah. And, and he, he is the transformation. He is, there's a, there's a, there's a quote in the church that says this. It says the fire of the holy spirit is the transforming end. The fire is the transforming energy of the holy Spirit's actions. Mm. He comes like a fire that warm, that just warms up the depths of our being and reaches us at the core at the heart.

And it it's the heart. The heart is the place of transformation. The heart is the place of life or death. The heart is the place of battle. The heart is where we've been inflicted with these wounds and the heart is where Jesus wants to come and set us free and bring us life. And the holy spirit will bring his transforming energy and life and passion into your heart.

And I pray that even as I'm saying this, if you're listening that he touches you now and that he brings hope and life and healing to your own heart. Beautiful, incredible. And I totally agree with the kind of the misrepresentation of religion. It's, it's very sad and hollow and it's sad. I love that.

You're changing that and yeah, if people wanna follow you on social, are you on social? How could they do that? You know, I do have some social media, but honestly as a my generation, man. I, I flounder with it, you know, I that's okay. I have Facebook page. I have, uh, uh, Instagram, I have text, but honestly, I don't even know how to manage any of 'em I need a come alongside of me.

There you go. Help me, you know, but they can go on to, uh, let's see. I don't even know what my Facebook page is, but my name bar shoots. They can probably find it. Sure. Um, on Instagram, uh, I guess it's the same Twitter it's uh, at bar shoots. S H O O T S. It's spelled differently. My real spelling is S C H U C H T.

Um, but I don't post a lot. I just try to, you know, I just kind of post stuff with my family. Li honestly, I need a, I need a millennial. Who's gonna come alongside again. take all that stuff and get it out there. Yeah. No, that's fair. No problem at all. We'll make sure to link to all those in the show notes guys.

So you, uh, don't have to remember all that Bart. Thank you so much for being here. I, I just wanna give you the last word. Uh, what encouragement would you give to someone listening right now? A young person listening right now who, who feels stuck, they feel broken. Maybe they hate themselves the way that you hated yourself, what would you say to them?

What encouragement would you give them? Um, especially if they're wrestling with this whole trauma of the breakdown of their parents' marriage and their family. Oh man. I, first of all, I, I feel your pain. I, I it's real to me. I, I understand it. It's, uh, one never give up. Don't. Don't quit, no matter what the temptation is, don't quit.

I remember I used to sit in high school, the end of my uncle's dock. I lived with him, my high school, my senior year, feeling lonely and depressed my world falling apart, all kind of things happening. And I remember sitting at the end of his dock, looking out over the water, looking out to the other side of the river and just going what's on the other side, man.

This is what it looks like right now, but what's on the other side. Little did I know that was preparing me for the journey of, of my life. It's like, there's hope on the other side, there is hope on the other side and, and just keep pressing in. And Jesus is that hope and I'm not trying to push religion, but he is the answer.

Not, not, not in the negatives of religion, but him himself. He is our source of life. He came to bring us abundant life, call on him, ask him, do like I did God. I just need to know if you're real. I mean, I've heard all this stuff. Just show me, just show me, show me, lead me to the right people, show me, but never, ever, ever, ever give up.

And I understand if you struggle loving yourself. I understand that completely. Not until I encountered love himself that I learned to love myself. You know, God is love. And, and I love myself today. I love myself, uh, not in a weird way, but in a healthy way, love yourself. Never give up.

If you want more content from Bart, you can find that at church on fire. Dot live again. That's church on fire.live. Once you're on that website, click online courses, and then you can choose a course and you can buy it. Now, if you're not ready for that, you can click on store on that website. Again, that's church on fire.live, and you'll find some, uh, free previews of the courses that he offers.

If you wanna know more about the John Paul to healing centered, you can just Google JP two healing center, or you can go to JP II healing center.org. You can click on the schedule on that page, and then you can sign up for a live event if you'd like to attend one of their events. One takeaway from this episode for me, is that it's so important to find the right people in your life to talk to about your struggles about your broken family.

Because like Bart said, it can actually be harmful to talk to the wrong people. So the question really is how do you find. The right people to talk to, to open up to, I, I think there's a few principles that you can follow. One is look for someone who has empathy, the ability to really put themselves in your shoes, even if they haven't been exactly through what you've been through, they can put themselves in your shoes.

Next. I say, find someone who won't judge you, someone who will just listen, who will just accept you as you are now. Not saying they're gonna prove of anything bad that you've done in your life, but they'll just accept you. And they'll love you wherever you're at in life. Next. Find someone who is trustworthy, someone, you know, who is gonna keep your story.

Keep your struggle secret. They're not gonna go tell everyone. They know. Another point is find someone whos suffered. I've found typically that people who've suffered and especially learned to deal with it in some healthy way are more trustworthy. People who haven't suffered much in life. They tend not to be able to relate with you, especially when you're sharing something deep and heavy with them.

And so I'd say find someone who, you know, has been through some stuff in life who's suffered next, find someone who's older and wiser than you. Someone who can offer you guidance, not just listen to you, but maybe offer some advice for how to deal with whatever you're dealing with. Another benefit too, is they can help you keep healthy boundaries with them and other people in your life.

Because so often when we bring our problems to someone, there is a temptation, especially for people like us to develop an unhealthy reliance on them. And so they could help you keep those good boundaries, which will help keep the relationship healthy. And then lastly, I'd say it's usually best if you're a man that you go to another man, and if you're a woman, then you go to another woman.

So quick recap, look for someone who has empathy, who won't judge you, who's trustworthy, who's suffered. Who's older and wiser, and who's typically the same sex as you are, but you might be asking, how do I know that they have all these characteristics? The first thing of course is maybe you've seen these characteristics in that person in action with other people, or maybe even with you, if you haven't seen that, maybe you've seen hints of those characteristics, or you've heard other people talking about that person saying, oh, they're really empathetic.

Or they've been through a lot in their life or they give great advice. And then once you've figured out someone who you can open up to, then it's just a matter of improving that relationship. You might have an opportunity to be there for them. Maybe if they're more of your peer, as opposed to a mentor.

But whatever the case, ask them, if you can talk to them, tell them, Hey, I'm going through a lot of stuff in my life right now. And I just need someone to talk to. Is it okay if I open up to you and see what they say, honestly, they might not be able to help you at that point in their life. They might be in a rough spot and they might not have much capacity.

That's okay. Find the next best person. And even if they are available, it might not go perfectly. It might not go how you imagine it to go. But if you do the things that I mentioned, you'll be on the right track and the likelihood that they're gonna be open and helpful. Is gonna be a lot higher now to help along those lines.

We've built an online community here at restored, and it's just a safe place for you to speak openly about the pain and the problems that you face. It'll help you not feel so alone. And you'll be challenged to grow into a better stronger person. And recently we started doing online, uh, digital virtual meetups, where we all get together on a call and just talk about stuff we chat.

And we also discuss, uh, different things. And we talk about the pain and the problems in our lives due to the breakdown of our family and our parents' divorce separation, all those things. So this is a group of people, young people. Like you, who you can be a part of who you can talk to. You can find support from, if you wanna join, just go to restored ministry.com/community.

Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/community. Fill out the form. And then we'll communicate through email to add you to the group. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restorministry.com slash 48. Thank you so much for listening. I really hope this has been helpful. It's been useful for you.

If it has been, I invite you to subscribe and share this podcast with someone, you know, who could really use this content. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

The Safe Space We Actually Need

3 minute read.

I remember the first time I came across a ‘safe space’ on a college campus.

While I had read and heard of these before, it felt somewhat surreal to come across one in real life; it took seeing one in person to realize that this is something that is really happening…not just a story the media is making up. At the risk of sounding insensitive, I think the concept of ‘safe spaces’ is a little silly. Not because anxiety or stress isn’t real or trivial, but because of the idea that somehow a room – like the one I found at University of South Carolina – can somehow fix our emotional or psychological distress.

How is that room different from any other? Because no one can challenge you or tease you? Because it is a designated space where you can break down? How is that helpful?

If we think that four walls that protect us from the outside world will solve our problems, we are sadly mistaken.

We shouldn’t need an office at our school to hide from our problems…which are most likely not caused by our peers or teachers anyway.

The fact is though, we are distressed. More and more of us are starting to take medications for anxiety and depression. The fact that a ‘safe space’ is becoming commonplace on college campuses is indicative of how our generation is feeling.

The reality is, we do need a safe space. But it isn’t a room in the music department of a college campus with bad lighting and gray carpet…it’s our home; it’s our family.

Mothers and fathers (or other primary caretakers) play an irreplaceable role in not only teaching us good habits, but also our temperament, our ability to be in relationships with others, our proficiency at interacting with the outside world, and our emotional and psychological health.

This has become more and more clear to me, especially taking a human growth and development class in which these formative relationships are especially emphasized. There is so much evidence which demonstrates that distant relationships between children and their parents are strongly associated with personality disorders (including anxiety), drug and alcohol abuse, and delinquency.

The home is where we are formed…physically, emotionally, psychologically, and intellectually. When we come from a strong, loving, supportive family, we are able to go out into the world confident in our ability to face the challenges that inevitably will come our way. When we don’t have that stability in our lives early on, our skill to interact with the outside world and develop close relationships with others is stunted…we are immature and therefore unable to deal…hence the need for a ‘safe space.’

When we look at the importance of the family and how many of ours are broken today, it really shouldn’t be surprising that levels of anxiety, depression, alcoholism, and drug abuse are increasing more and more. That safe space that a close, loving family provides is essential. Of course, even the healthiest of families has their problems, the difference is the family that remains close despite them, instead of allowing them to separate or distance them.

I think as Americans we take pride in being independent. We started off as a nation of independent thinkers who strove for freedom. However, the idea of the self-made man simply isn’t true…just ask their mother. We were made in, for, and to love; and that is something we can’t teach ourselves. How can we possibly love if no one teaches us how or what that looks like? We don’t expect a five-year-old to teach themselves how to read…the same logic applies to this. We are born dependent on others and that doesn’t really change as we get older. You may know how to feed yourself (thankyouverymuch) but there is probably nothing more detrimental to the human person than loneliness. We need others and that is not a weakness, it is the beauty of being relational creatures.

We all have dreams and goals that we want to achieve, and that is perfectly healthy. However we have to remember that close relationships with others – love, essentially – is really what gives our lives meaning. That starts at home. Family is where we learn to love and be loved…it is the sanctuary of life. What do you think of when you think of sanctuary? Maybe someplace sacred…certainly someplace safe, a refuge. Nothing can replace the safety that family provides and we are seeing the consequences of its loss with the increasing levels of distress, especially in our young adults (who should be the most lively!).

It isn’t silly that we need a safe space, we do. But a college campus can’t provide it, and the sooner we realize this the better off we’ll be.

This article was written by Restored team member, Miranda Henkel. It has been reposted with permission. It originally appeared on her blog, First Class Act.

#047: How Healing Improved My Life, Marriage, and Friendships | Sandra Howlett

When your parents’ marriage breaks apart, it feels like an earthquake. The most basic foundation, your family, is shaken and shattered. It’s disorienting. It’s traumatic. As a result, we tend to go through life doubting anything can last. 

But thankfully, we’re not doomed to skepticism our entire lives. We can heal and feel whole again, like our guest Sandy. In this episode, she shares:

• How she beat chronic depression

• How her choice to forgive her parents led to feeling free instead of stuck

• The sexual mistakes she made and the healing she’s found

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Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Email: sandrahowlett25@icloud.com

  • How Fear of Abandonment Can Affect Your Relationships 

  • Death of Innocence

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As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When your parents' marriage falls apart, it often feels like an earthquake. The most basic foundation in your family is shaken and shattered. It's disorienting, it's traumatic. And because of that, we tend to go through life questioning what won't fall apart. We doubt that anything can last, that we can rely on anything or anyone.

But while that is a real struggle that we face, we're not doomed to perpetual skepticism our entire lives. We can heal and feel whole again. And we can even learn to trust and find security which we touch on. In this episode, you're also gonna hear us discuss how my guest beat chronic depression, just incredible story, how her choice to forgive her parents actually led to feeling free instead of stuck.

She makes the great point that mentors are an incredible tool to help you heal. And. She shares how healing her brokenness has actually helped her find peace in life, build good friendships and even improve her own marriage. And then she gets real about the sexual mistakes that she's made and the healing that she's found.

This is really raw and real conversation with solid advice. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation. Or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 47 and today my guest is Sandra Hallett. Sandy grew up in Southern California, where she spent her time, camping, surfing, and horseback riding Sharon earned a bachelor's in journalism from California state long beach and has written for black belt and boys' life magazines and various community newspapers.

She's been married for 20 years and now lives in Minnesota with her husband, mark. She has a blended family with two stepsons, one earning his masters in theology and another who is a talented musician and one son in his first year of minor. Seminary Sandy rediscovered her Catholic faith upon moving to Minnesota at nine years ago.

And in the last two years has begun the healing process from her parents' divorce. She's a life giving wounds online retreat leader and works part-time for marriage material, a pro-life organization. Like I mentioned, this conversation is very raw and real. We talk about topics that honestly are not talked about enough.

And so I hope this is helpful for you. I know it will be. So here's my conversation with Sandy,

Sandy. Welcome to the show. Thank you. I've been really looking forward to this, to, to everyone listening, uh, Sandy and I actually got to, to meet up in person recently. We had dinner together. Uh, Sandy, thanks again. I, uh, I hope you enjoyed that pizza that we had, and it was really great to meet you in person.

Yeah. So good to, uh, see the face on the other side of the voice. Finally. you make me sound special? I don't, I don't feel special at all, but, um, no, it, it was great to, to meet you in person. That definitely changes the dynamics of the interview. Cuz a lot of the people I interview, I don't have the pleasure of meeting in person, but if any of you listening, if you're ever in Colorado, uh, hit me up, it would be great to, to see you.

But Sandy's so good to have you. I, I just honored to hear your story to, and I, I know some of it already and just share it with restores audience. So I'd like to start by you just taking us to your C. Like what happened with your parents' marriage, with your family? How old were you? Uh, how did you react to it?

Yeah, so I was four, maybe close to five when my parents, um, separated got divorced and I really hardly remember anything. I mean, my, the only memories I have growing up are mostly after the divorce. I have a couple of strong memories right before it happened. Um, one of 'em was an earthquake and so that's kind of weird.

So it's kind of ingrained in my, in my memory. And, um, in fact it was kind of a metaphor for me for a while of like just the ground shaking and me as I was getting older and dealing with the issues of divorce of just kind of feeling like I'm, you know, on shaky ground and never quite able to find solid the ground for myself and in my life and stuff.

Anyways. So my dad, um, had convinced my mom, so we were living in Southern California and this was the seventies. And, you know, there was a lot of stuff going on in the seventies, but, um, he, um, apparently wasn't happy in his marriage and he talked my mom into, um, going to this swingers party. And, um, I know they were like maybe smoking a little pot and stuff too at the time, cuz we had found pipes in their dresser drawers.

But anyway, um, you know, the, they both came from very conservative Catholic background. So it was just kind of, I don't know how to explain how all this went down, but um, anyway, they end up at this party that my mom says she really didn't wanna go to my dad has a very forceful personality. So I kind of understand how that worked.

And he met my stepmom, who she's still my stepmom 50 years later. And um, you know, their story is apparently their knees touched and sparks flew. And that was that. I do remember vaguely, I think it's a real memory of them. Uh, my parents arguing at one point yelling at each other and then after that nothing.

And so he moved out temporarily to an apartment and then, um, Moved in with my stepmom at her house. So we, I guess the summer after they got separated and, or divorced, my mom, my dad had been trying to encourage my mom to go on trips or vacations by herself. Um, which I probably because of the marriage, but she had, she tells me that this trip was pre-planned before they separated.

So she was gonna go to Europe for the summer. And then after they separated, of course, he probably didn't wanna have anything to do with it, taking care of the kids and letting her, you know, go on this trip. But they were separated and she was very, very angry and very upset. And apparently had the babysitter drive us over to my dad and stepmom's house and just drop us off and say, here, you're taking the kids, you know, mm-hmm oh, wow.

which, um, you know, Obviously it wasn't great that my dad, you know, left the family, but it's also not great with kids who are in turmoil, like early on in a divorce for your mom then to also kind of take off for a summer. So, you know, trauma upon trauma, obviously we kind of made it work, but like I said, you know, we were, we were pretty.

Angry and naughty kids. And we would lock the babysitter out of the house during the day. And I know my sister ran away at least once. And, you know, I mean, we were, we were pretty traumatized when I was, so that was when I was about four or five. And then when I was 12, my mom was getting remarried. And so the courts at that time, so we had had the custody was, you know, at that time it was mostly given to the moms and then weekends with dad.

So every other weekend with my dad, which of course didn't really help our relationship either. I think he had some anger from the divorce, but he also has a very strong personality, you know, despite that. And so, you know, it was really hard and my parents, so, you know, we had what would be considered a good divorce, of course you, and I know there's no such thing mm-hmm , but as far as that, there wasn't any open fighting.

We had a pretty good lifestyle. I mean, it was definitely. We had to watch our pennies at my mom's house. We had a lot less money. So we were really, you know, on a tight budget, but we did a lot of camping for vacations and things like that, which is just, you know, one of the greatest memories of my childhood is just camping with my mom and our friends and stuff.

So in a way, it's, it's a good thing. We didn't have too much money. But then on the, then on the flip side, you know, my dad was doing quite well. He was an entrepreneur. He had his own modem company, started with a group of guys. He ended up, um, I mean like early on, he has like several patents developing stuff he was selling to apple was one of his customers and, you know, stuff like that.

So. So it was kind of a dichotomy because we had, you know, a pretty, you know, tight budget at my mom's and then we would go to my dad's and there was lots of money mm-hmm wow. And, you know, it was really hard for my mom, for instance, like we would come home after Christmas with all these expensive presents for my dad that she couldn't afford to buy us.

And so that was tough, but so they weren't, you know, really talking, even though it wasn't volatile and, um, We would have to make arrangements with our dad directly when we were children for our, every other weekly visits, which was really stressful for us. Cuz again, he was kind of, um, you know, a hard person to deal with.

I always in my, my PC adult life, I call him prickly. He was a little prickly, not, not more fuzzy, you know? Um, and so me and my sisters would fight, you know, like we're small children. We're like, you gotta call dad to make arrangements. I'm not calling him. You call him. I'm not gonna call him. you know, it was just like kind of stressful for us, but yeah, that's kind of how that went and then.

When I was 12, the courts decided, uh, and my mom was getting remarried and moving about an hour away from, you know, we had stayed in the childhood home where my mom and dad had lived, which was great also because it really gave us, you know, more stability than we would've had as children of divorced.

Cause I know a lot of children are divorced, have to go back and forth and Lu their stuff around and you know, all of that. And I understand you wanna, you know, maintain a relationship with dads, et cetera. But actually I feel like it was just a blessing that we didn't have to do that. Mm-hmm . And so, you know, at 12, my mom's getting remarried moving away and the court says, well, you're old enough to decide what parent you wanna live.

Yeah. Well, I think back now, and I'm like really at 12, I'm old enough to decide that. And not only that, but to have all that pressure put on me, like so much pressure. Oh my gosh. My sisters had already decided and with maybe a little urging from my dad that we had lived with my mom, the majority of the time, and maybe it was his turn or maybe it was, you know, let's live with dad.

So I'm like the last one. And they keep asking me, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? I'm like, I don't know. And it, you know, it's kind of a lose, lose situation. Absolutely. You know? Um, so my sisters were already leaving. If I went to live with my dad, my mom would be completely alone. And not to mention, like I said, my dad, wasn't the easiest person to live with.

So I'm like, well, you know, let me go live with my mom, just because it's easier. And because I wanna be there for her and you know, so that's what happened. Wow. There's so much there. It just breaks my heart to think of, you know, the four or five year old, you going through all of this stuff. And then everything that followed through the years, I think your analogy of, you know, the earthquake is so fitting and we've heard this again and again from people how it just feels like the foundation has been taken out underneath you.

And it just feels like kind of the way that we talk about it is if the, the family is the most basic fundamental sort of foundation that we're supposed to be able to rely on. And that falls apart, we tend to go through life feeling like, well, what won't fall apart? Like what can I actually rely on? And so we have so many feelings of insecurity there.

Yeah. And I had, um, a lot of nightmares as a child. I'm assuming it was after the divorce. And I remember going to sleep in my mom's room a lot because I was scared. And I, I still, to this day, remember the scary clown and the, the, in my dreams and the washing machine that I was stuck in. And then at sometimes I would try to sleep with my middle sister and she would kick me out.

And so I specifically remember one time waiting till she was asleep and crawling into her bed. And it's like a little twin bed, you know? And I'm curling my little body at the base of the bed near her feet and sleeping, you know, after she had already fallen asleep. So she couldn't kick me out. it's like so sad.

Yeah. Oh man. Yeah. I can imagine if you were to go back right now and just be with that little girl. I am curious. I, I, yeah. What would you say to, to her if you were to go back right now, I know I'm putting you on the spot, but, um, I'm just curious. Gosh, that's a great question. I mean, it's different. I, I could talk to my 20 year old self easier maybe than the little girl's self, but I know that, um, you know, it's not your fault.

You're loved. I mean, that's, I think the biggest thing with children is that. and not that we consciously think it's our fault, but somehow it gets into our psyche that we were somehow at fault, like parent didn't love me enough or whatever. I wasn't enough to keep them there. Or, you know, so just to, just to let people know that it's not their fault and you were loved and your parents are flawed.

Like when we're children, we just think our parents know everything. We just think that they're so perfect. And they have it all together. And. I can tell you as a parent now, and as an adult, like we don't know anything. we're maybe as we go along, we're just better at pretending yeah. I mean, it's kind of humbling.

And then it also tends to give you. A little more perspective and a little more forgiveness for your parents when you get older and you just realize that everybody's doing the best they can, we're all human, we all fail. And yeah, you just don't realize how kind of flawed your parents are as a child.

mm-hmm yeah. We, we tend to make them into superheroes thinking that, oh my goodness. Especially, you know, dad, we look at him and we say, oh my goodness, he's Superman. He can do nothing wrong. I know I looked at my dad like that. And then when my parents separated, that was part of the reason that it was so hard on me.

I was like, wait a minute. They're not perfect. And, and there's actually, you know, been some real problems going on that I wasn't aware of and all sorts of stuff that just crushed my trust in, in both my parents. Yeah. And, um, you know, I recently went on a retreat for children of divorce, with my stepson and, you know, he got, uh, An earful on probably the first time he's ever heard it, that I had issues with my marriage, to his father, you know, which is my current husband.

And, you know, I'm sure, you know, most people don't talk about marital problems that much. So even your friends and family and, you know, everyone thinks that everything's just perfect. And, um, there's a lot that goes on behind closed doors. yeah, absolutely. I, I wish we would talk about it more in a constructive environment, you know?

Cause I think, yes. I think one of the things that happens often is that, uh, one or both spouses go to their friends and they just gossip and they just complain and there's nothing constructive about it, but I, I really wish we would talk about those problems market. I think it would lead to better solutions.

I, and I definitely wanna get to that, uh, further with you, but yeah, I wanna give you a chance now, if you wanted to add anything there. Oh yeah, no, we can, we can talk about it a little bit later, but I know some of my friends really appreciate the fact like I'm. Pretty outspoken. Um, I've got some of my dad's traits.

I have a lot of, you know, ideas and opinions and things like that. I could talk forever, but that is one of the things that some of my friends appreciate my outspokenness and my, um, willingness to speak about. In a general way about marital problems without complaining about them. Like, yeah, this is hard, you know?

Yeah, absolutely. I, no, I think that's so good. And looking to you as an example, I'm sure is so helpful to, to so many of your friends and anyone who, who mentored look, who looks up to you. I wanna pause for a second. Just say anyone in the Minnesota area that Sandy's been working on, starting a support group.

I mean, at least you did right Sandy for a six week kind of stint. And, uh, that's possibly something that you will be doing in the future too. So at the end, we'll give people info if they wanna contact you, but it just came to mind because you are a go getter. You wanna start things, you wanna help people.

Yes. And I think that would be useful for anyone in your area. Are you in the, uh, Minneapolis area? Yes, I'm in Stillwater, Minnesota. Perfect. Okay. So it's about 30 minutes outside of the cities. Mm-hmm okay. Sounds good. So we'll make sure to, um, connect people with you if they wanna know more. Yeah. Maybe you all could, could help each other and get something going up there.

Definitely. Awesome. Love it. Two, two things you said before that really stuck out to me. One, you said you were kinda living in two worlds and I think that's the reality for so many, uh, children of divorce is that we live in two worlds, but it's so interesting. The financial difference. I've seen that with my parents, even to this day to, to be vulnerable.

Um, my dad was always working in construction and very experienced and good at what he he does. And so he, um, you know, always had the opportunity, usually had the opportunity to make a lot of money. And so when we're with him, it's usually going out to eat. And like you said, Christmas gifts and birthday gifts and things like that.

We're a little bit more extravagant. And then on mom's side, you know, she stayed at home for so many years to raise us, which was just such a sacrifice and a blessing. Like I, I'm just really grateful that she did that. Um, but then she had to go back to work. And so, uh, right now, you know, she's gonna be okay through retirement, but it is a real struggle.

And as we know, divorce just destroys people financially as well, especially if it's drawn out, like my parents' merit, uh, divorce was. And so, um, I can really relate with that. The other thing that you said was being the middle man, um, a number two of six kids as, uh, some people listening will know and, uh, being one of the oldest, I think I especially had to assume that role, especially cuz my parents were just kind of at each other's throats and it's like, okay, we're gonna have to be the mediator.

My, my older brother and I, and even my younger siblings. Different points. And so that, that is just such a struggle and it's such a difficult position to be in for, for kids. And I was curious offhand, uh, if you had any advice for anyone in that situation right now, who is the middle man who maybe feels like they need to be the middle man either to just keep things civil between mom and dad, or maybe protect their siblings.

I know I've assumed that role to protect my siblings so that my dad or my mom wouldn't go to them instead, they'd come to me cuz I felt better able to, to handle it in a lot of situations. But yeah. Any advice for that young person who is dealing with being the middle man? Yeah. That's not your job, you're a kid.

It's not your job. And I understand if you have siblings. So if you say no to being the middle man for your parents, that maybe they'll go to the siblings, but you know, it would be nice. Um, as a group, if you know, all the children would realize and you know, have a pact like. No, that's not our job. I think children of divorce are really forced to grow up, you know, way too early because of all these things.

And, you know, we've already lost so much of our childhood and that's just one more thing. And so for them to just realize that that's not what they're being asked to do is not reasonable. It's not something that should be put on them as children. And to just say no, , you know, like to find those boundaries somehow and, you know, and realize that, you know, don't be afraid of losing the love of your parents, cuz that's the, that's the biggest motivator for everything we do with our parents.

We're trying to please them. And you know, even if your parents get angry at you, they usually don't stop loving you. So, you know, it's just, it's just to realize that hopefully, you know, you can, you can kind of. Somehow set a boundary or find, or find a different solution to you having to feel like you have to be the middle man, and just maybe have a talk with them and just say, I'm not comfortable doing that.

You're the adult. I think you should do it. yeah, no, that's easier said than done. Oh, absolutely. And, and one thing to add there, uh, you might need to remind them frequently. I know I had to do this over the years and, uh, it's, it's sad, but. Yeah. I, I think there's so many raw emotions between our parents. So we, we might need to remind them of the boundary.

It's not like something you set once and it's done forever. That would be nice. I wish it was that way. Yeah, exactly. But, um, but reminding, and I love that idea, Sandy, about kind of teaming up with your siblings instead of just going it alone so that the middle man position goes to another sibling. That that's really good cause that, that is a great alternative.

And so getting them all on the same page, then maybe one or two of you approaching the, your parents and just saying, okay, we all agree on this. If, if, I mean, maybe you all could do it, but if not, uh, just one or two of you maybe could approach them and just explain how it's not good. It's not healthy. And they really need to be talking themselves to each other or through maybe some other mediator, like a family member or a friend, someone who's a counselor, even an attorney, someone who's exactly better equipped to, to handle those things.

So, uh, yeah, I love that. I, uh, also, and what a difficult position you were put in, just wanna touch on that. Cause I think there's a lot of people who feel that pressure of choosing between mom and dad, whether that means living with one or just O in other ways as well. And so, like, I know for, for me, when we go back to Chicago, we typically stay with mom.

And I know naturally because we're staying with mom it's, uh, a little bit more difficult to make time to see dad. And I know he feels kind of hurt by that and it can be difficult. Like we really make, we put forth an effort to have a relationship. You know, I put forth an effort to have a relationship with both of my parents, but it kind of just naturally because of that.

And so I've certainly feel that tension now, but man, I can't imagine as a, just a young woman. Uh, being forced to choose like that. And so a again, I just wanted to get your advice for anyone who's maybe in that situation now. And I, I'm not sure what all the court systems, uh, do at this point in terms of determining living situation.

I hope it's better than, than what you described, but I'm just curious. Yeah. Any advice for someone in that situation now who's listening. I don't really know. I mean, once they've, once they've put you in that situation, I'm sure some people would say, well, I never got a choice and it's nice that you got a choice, but I feel like it was just way too young to have that kind of burden put on me.

But yeah, I've always hated Christmas. It's it's better now, but growing up worst time of the year, having to, you know, bounce back and forth between parents' house. And even now we have to, you know, make sure that we spend the right amount of time, give everybody equal time and. You know, we're driving all over my family lives in the LA area, Southern California.

And as you know, the traffic's pretty bad there and just, that's an understatement. just driving from house to house. And now that I'm married, I have my in-laws, you know, that my husband's side of the family to visit. So now there's three family units to visit and it's just so exhausting, you know? Yeah. Um, and I, I just feel like kids really carry the burden of all that.

I was telling somebody at this retreat, like, you know, wouldn't it be great if we just had our house and all the parents had to come to us and had to coordinate with us rather than, you know, I mean, it's a logistical nightmare. I have to tell you because you know, not just like going to each house, but you know, which one do we start at and when do we, where do we go and how, you know, I mean just, oh my gosh.

yeah. And there's so much tension there too. Like if you go to this family's house first, it's like, well, you're, they're your favorites then? Or you spend maybe a little bit more time here than there. And it's, uh, it is, it can just be a mess, but I agree. It can be exhausting. And, um, yeah, I, I love that idea.

We should maybe try to implement that, just having them come to us. And I know some people listening have done that, which is great. Yeah. How did you see, uh, your parents' divorce affect you in the years that that followed, uh, you already explained some of that, but I'm curious if you would elaborate a little bit more.

Yeah, well, gosh, I feel like I wa I was a train wreck as a kid really, or as a teenager, young adult. I mean, I can't emphasize how off the rails I was. And I'll talk about it later. I guess if we have time, one of the things I didn't realize though, is how much anger I had. Um, so I'm, you know, pretty happy go lucky person.

I. I don't know, had good friends when I was younger and just joked around a lot and just had a lot of fun. But, um, you know, underneath there was just so much anger lurking there, which I found out after I got married of all times. So, um, it, it comes out. It, you can suppress things, but it comes out. But, but when I was younger, um, I was very rebellious.

I drank a lot. Like I, the first time I ditched school, I was in sixth grade and we were drinking at my house. I didn't have a lot of supervision for my mom, cuz she was working full time and she also was a different time when parents really didn't supervise their kids as much. And I really could have used supervision, but anyway.

Sure. Yeah. So I just. Yeah, got into a lot of drinking, um, with my friends and the, you know, the crowds that I hung out with that was normal anyway, for middle school, high school. Um, when my mom moved, she moved to kind of a nicer area, um, near the beach and there was. A lot of rich kids there and they drank and did drugs and, you know, lots of that stuff.

So there was house parties, the parents would leave for the weekends and there'd be these huge house parties or even smaller ones, but sometimes like, you know, hundreds of people, but yeah, so I got into a lot of trouble. I didn't really have a curfew. Yeah. I was drinking and driving. Um, just, yeah, I, I became probably more like towards the end of high school and in my twenties, I became very promiscuous.

Um, just kind of looking for that lost love, you know, love and, and affection attention from, from men. You know, it was kind of like, my heart was so walled up. I couldn't offer anything else. I couldn't make myself vulnerable, but you're so needing. That human connection. And yet when your heart's walled off, you can't make that connection.

And so it was, you know, it was made with my body and that was, that was pretty much all I had to offer and that's, it kept me going. And, um, it just, it really was almost, it was over the top and it almost like at an addictive level where it's like, I just couldn't stop. Like, I, I felt bad. And, um, I told my sister recently, like, yeah, I feel like I just lost my soul because we were talking about her kids or her daughter and like premarital sex.

And I wasn't, I wasn't Catholic when I was younger, I was raised Catholic, but I didn't have faith and I wasn't following the faith and stuff, but I really see, um, a reason now not to have premarital sex. I just. Yeah, it, it just doesn't work like from a practical standpoint. So, you know, a lot of what I found out through, you know, my experience of kind of healing and growing up and realizing all the things that had gone wrong in my life was that my life just wasn't working for me.

And that was one of 'em, you know, you just can't, you just can't jump into a physical relationship without having, um, a commitment or having something else there already, because then you, you feel worse. You feel like, do they really love me or do they only love me for my body? You know? And it just, it just ruins your, it ruined my self-esteem.

I mean, of, of all the things that happened. I know the divorce can be really hard on people's self-esteem their identity, things like that. But I think that more than anything else just kind of really shattered me and it was, you know, to a large part, my own doing. And so. Yeah. You know, I, I, I really couldn't stop even though I hated myself all the time for it.

And then I would just do it again. yeah. I mean, I had, it was like this aura, I kind of, you know, had this need for attention and people like it was felt, it was just like, it was front and center, you know, like I literally look across a crowded noisy bar and lock eyes with some guy and know that, okay, we're going home tonight, you know, together.

And so it was, you know, it was very dangerous, very, uh, in, in addition to other like physical risks and stuff that I took, um, when I was younger, cuz I was a real adrenaline junkie, you know, that was kind of, I've always been very physical, but I mean, obviously that was really risky and I. Thank God that I'm here to talk about it.

I guess. Yeah. Seriously. It's it's so interesting. I want you to keep going, but I wanna comment on something here. Uh, the, the anger and marriage thing. I've seen that in my own life, and I've seen that in, in other marriages that I know as well. Um, it's so interesting. I, yeah, I don't, I don't, I can't say I totally understand it.

I, I guess part of the reason I think, and I'm curious, what you think is just when you open yourself up on a heart level, like you said, not just physically, but really be vulnerable to someone. It brings up a lot of imperfections. It brings up a lot of baggage and brokenness that maybe we didn't have to deal with before marriage or before an intimate relationship.

So it's so interesting that I think that that is a trend like marriage seems to cause so many issues to, to surface for anyone. But I think, especially for people like us, I think there's several things at work. And one of 'em is maybe expectations and just what you thought marriage was gonna be. And it's never what, it's what you think it's gonna be.

And mm-hmm, people don't really talk about that. You know, you go to a wedding and everyone's all happy and stuff. And I wanna just, you know, shake 'em and say, oh, it's not what you think right. Like there there's some really good and beautiful parts to it, but it it's just like life it's there's ups and downs.

Right. And I think a lot of people go into marriage feeling. You know, this person's gonna be my savior or this person's gonna make everything right in my life. And that's, like I said, that's part of the expectations is that, you know, this person is my everything and everything that I I've been, you know, lonely, I've been, you know, insecure.

I've been. Whatever broken, forgotten, whatever through the divorce, and this is gonna make everything all right. And it's not, like you said, it's life, life is life, whether you're married or not married. And then the other thing is that it really shows that other person is a reflection of all your faults, because the way that they react to you and what you're doing, um, and it's just like holding up a mirror to yourself and all these things that either you didn't realize were false, or you don't wanna admit, or you don't wanna look at yourself.

And so it kind of shines the light back on you through that other person. And, you know, oftentimes we don't like what we see mm-hmm so it, it makes it very difficult. But then also just, you know, I had a lot of anger and mistrust of men in general. And so, I mean, certainly I think that probably came out in my marriage and, um, Yeah.

Just having to, to really deal with that, with that anger. I mean, I was at one point, like I would cuss a lot in my head and that's something that I worked on, cuz even though I know it's in my head and nobody could hear it, but at the same time, you and I know that what's in your heart or in your thoughts, it, it comes out, it comes out in your, in your actions.

You, you really. Hide who you are or what's what's inside. So yes, I had to work on that because a large part of my marriage, I would just be cussing in my head sure, sure. No. And I think so many of us who come from broken families, like we didn't see a model of what marriage is supposed to look like. We, we saw actually a poor example.

And so when it's our turn, we just feel lost. We're like, how do I do this? Like, there's no manual with it. And maybe we got some guidance here or there, but overall it's almost foreign to us. Whereas someone who comes from an intact family though, I'm sure there's always struggles within marriage. They at least have this example, this positive example that was ingrained in their bones, so to speak.

And I, I think that's a huge, a huge thing that's missing for us. Absolutely. Um, but I think the trust thing. Is really big too beyond just like having an example of marriage, just not trusting people. You know, I think that really comes into play in marriage, but, um, oh, as far as the example of marriages. So it's interesting because you know, my mom was single for about seven years and then she got remarried.

She dated a lot, so there was a little instability there and then she got married and she's, you know, she's in a happy marriage, but my, um, my dad and my stepmom, they were like I said, soulmates. And so I did again, the dichotomy and the, in the finances, but also in the, in the love, because they're, even though my mom has a good relationship, my dad and my stepmom are what I call the one percenters.

Well, my dad passed a year and a half ago, but the one percenters of marriage were they're actually just, you know, completely head over heels in love. Soulmates, whatever, you know, I did have that example from them. And at the same time, it was kind of hard because my stepmom is the one that my dad left our family for

So should I be happy that they have this wonderful joyous marriage? Or should I not? So, I mean, even that caused even that caused some pain and at the same time, trying to celebrate that love and, and to have that as an example. So it was really a double edged sword there, but we did have, you know, some, some good examples.

Okay. No, that makes sense. And that's so confusing. Like, do you look to them as an example or not? Yeah, I, I totally hear you there. Yeah. What else would you add to how you saw the, the breakdown of their marriage affect. I don't know, the, the trust was probably the biggest thing. Like, and, um, well you have, you know, you've talked about loneliness and whatnot, but being able to make friends, male and female relationships were really not good.

And, and so, yeah, so that made, uh, gave me a lot of loneliness throughout my life. Just not having those really good connections, cuz it's one thing if your family separates, but if you have some good friends and good support groups, so, you know, that was the issue with me is that I didn't have any good mentors.

I didn't have any grandparents because they were all gone by the time I was five and I know grandparents can be a great resource for people. Um, we did have one family friend. I think I mentioned I was a latchkey kid when my, my parents divorced and my mom went back to work and I'm walking home from kindergarten by myself and letting myself in.

But most of the time, um, I stopped at our friend's house. So we had some very, very close family, friends, and their house was on the way back. So I was able to stop there and hang out for a while until my sisters got out of school. That was good. But I remember complaining one time to my sister about, you know, well, do you have a, did you have any mentors growing up?

Because I really, I felt like that would've been a huge benefit to me. She says, yeah, I had this person and I had this person. I had, you know, our stepmom who she's a lot closer to. And so she turned to her as a mentor and she had, um, a guy at the horse barn who was a mentor and I'm like, wow. I feel really, um, you know, like I really missed out cuz I didn't have anyone.

So I, you know, turned to writing a lot. I journal and write and all of that, which was. Which was very helpful. Yeah, there just, there wasn't a lot of structure. And then when I was growing up with my mom and then she got remarried and she married a military man mm. So I go from having pretty much zero structure or discipline or anything, and living in a household with a stepdad.

And of course I was angry and I was, you know, rebellious and all of those things and then kind of hit up against his, his personality. And that was scary for me. I saw a couple of. Small incidents, like where he took my step, uh, brother and, you know, shoved him against the wall. And, you know, for me, I was a very, very sensitive kid.

So any like tiny even hints of kind of violence or aggression are just really frightening to me. and so that just really scared me. So then I was, you know, living in this, this household now with a stepdad who I was afraid of for many years, and we're great now, but yeah, it was kind of a shock to my system.

Absolutely. No that that's a lot to deal with. And you mentioned also to me that you struggle with depression for years and just self-esteem issues and oh yeah. The, you know, the depression was pretty much chronic, lifelong, and. You know, it started to really lift in the last two or three years when I've been getting some healing.

And so, you know, there's a lot of things in your personality when you are, when you have trauma or, you know, childhood wounds that you think is who you are like, oh, I'm just a depressed person. And you don't realize, or I just have anxiety or I just a bad person who has no self discipline and I just party too much.

And you don't realize that some of these behaviors or actions, things that you attribute to your personality are actually part of your wound. Um, so I think that's really critical because, you know, I, um, I actually have some family history of mental illness. And so, especially with that going on, I thought, well, I'm just damaged.

I, I have a mental health issue or, you know, I thought I. I was convinced I, uh, was bipolar at one point because I would get very, very depressed sometimes lasting for, you know, a week or maybe longer. And then when I would come out of it, I would feel so good that it almost seemed like, you know, there were these extremes that I was, you know, maybe bipolar.

And, um, I don't know if that's the thing you can grow out. Per se I'm not a mental health expert, but, but I know that my depression was very bad and it's almost completely gone now. So I think your, your body protects you from things to some degree, you know, I don't, I don't know how that all works, but just that it's not, it's not permanent.

Some of these problems that you have, you know, they're not permanent and there are reasons for them, you didn't cause them, you were a victim to some degree of, of what happened to you in your childhood. And, and there is, there is hope for healing. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm no psychologists or neurobiologists either, but I think one of the things that I've learned that has been helpful to understand is that when you go through trauma, like you said, your brain experiences that trauma as if it's ongoing, unless you heal it, unless you process it, unless you kind of file it away, it, it, your brain's almost experiencing that continually throughout your life, cuz it doesn't have a sense of time.

The emotional part of your brain doesn't have a sense of time like we do in other parts of our brains. And so, um, that's just continuing on. So it makes sense. Again, there's other, there's many factors that go into chronic depression. I don't wanna simplify this too much. It makes sense that if, you know, we went through trauma and we never dealt with it, we never healed that we would continue feeling the way we did maybe when we were younger, when we went through the trauma immediately after the trauma.

So that makes sense to me that you experienced that in your story. And I'm so hopeful for all of the younger generation that has resources like restored and life giving wounds, because, you know, I didn't have that. And the fact that it's the voice of the children, you know, of divorce actually, and being able to share your stories and to be seen and heard.

And, um, I think that's amazing. So one of the problems that, so I just turned 55 and literally have just started to kind of get healing in the last 3, 4, 5 years. So I've lived with this for a very long time. And one of the things is that I always thought, what is, you know, what's wrong with me? Like my sisters, don't talk about it.

As being in the forefront of their life or having problems ongoing, although I can look at the relationships and lives and think, yes, they do, but Hmm. You know, as far as in their minds, they, they don't think they weren't thinking about it as much as I was. And it was, you know, I was always realizing that somehow the divorce was affecting me, although I didn't quite know how.

And so it was a terrible feeling, feeling like, you know, what is wrong with me? Like, I'm the only one that feels this in this world. And I didn't have, you know, your resource or no knew about you before. And, um, it was very lonely and isolating and I was, you know, very hard on myself because it's like, okay, there's something wrong with me.

And then when I became. Re immersed in the Catholic faith, they talk aloud about forgiveness. And so then it, I started working on forgiveness, which was great. It's a wonderful, uh, virtue at the same time, I thought, what is wrong with me that I'm still thinking about this divorce? Is it that I don't have enough forgiveness for my parents?

And I, you know, I'm just a bad person because I can't forgive. And so that also was kind of a double edged sword as. Okay. I wanna forgive, but clearly I had a lot of wounds that hadn't been addressed, like you said, totally. And I relate to the mental illness thing as well. That runs in my family. My dad deals with it.

It's just such a difficult thing. And, uh, you, you know that when you said basically that we believe that our condition is our identity and we confuse that often, and one counselor that came on the show said, uh, those things that you feel, the brokenness that you feel, it's really just how you're doing.

It's not who you are. And it's important to remember, especially to anyone listening right now who maybe you're dealing with anxiety, depression, loneliness, any other range of issues, and you confuse that condition as your identity, but that's not the case. Absolutely. Yeah. And then, you know, the other thing is.

You know, I was very detached a lot. Like I just kind of felt like I was going through the motions in life. You know, I also really didn't care sometimes if I lived or died, I think that's part of the reason why I took a lot of risks and part of it was just because I'm physical. But, um, I would remember sometimes I, I would get mad and I would drive without a seatbelt or I just, I was never suicidal.

I know we talked about that. There's a lot of people, uh, children of divorce who are suicidal and I wasn't that, but at the same time, I took a lot of risks, almost like tempting death, you know, and yeah, and really getting into like a victim mentality. I know that some of it was a little bit maybe self-fulfilling and that you can get into this mentality and then that's all you see is, you know, everything that everybody does to you.

It's, you're the victim and, and that's, you know, that's not healthy, but at the same time, I really was. I think because I maybe didn't have strong boundaries and it's almost like total strangers could see my vulnerability or could see that. And so, you know, not just getting in that mentality, but having actually becoming somewhat of a victim in certain situations.

Right. Yeah. So you thought you were the only common denominator. Wow. So interesting. I, I wanna go back to something you said before you mentioned that that writing was one of the ways that you coped with the pain and even it was even healing for you. What were some other things that were healing for you, uh, following the breakdown in your family?

Well, um, I've always been really big on exercise and, um, outdoor activities and things like that. So I ran cross country for a while. I surfed a lot. I loved, I loved swimming in the ocean because. I love nature. And, and then just also the, the challenge of it and the fun of that. So I got into surfing when I was young.

Yeah. I've, you know, for my mental health exercise has always been huge. And then I was big into horses. My family was, and so I did some, and it also suited my need for speed and all of that. So I did what was called three day eventing, the third. So there's, um, you know, stadium jumping and there's dressage.

And then there's the third element, which is the speed and these huge obstacles. So it was timed and they timed you and ya. So they took points away for a few. You know, hit the op if the horse hit the obstacle or, you know, whatever. And so really suited my, uh, adrenaline needs. That was really fun, but yeah, and I loved to dance.

I was, uh, like, like a bars or clubs or whatever, but I just, I was a total dance aholic. And, um, that was a way for me to blow off steam, things like that. Just being outdoors, being physical, writing journaling, and. I wrote, you know, I've written quite a bit of few poems now, but before I was writing and I didn't know quite what they were, I thought they were songs.

They might be poems. I don't really know. And it took a long time. I, you know, probably in my forties when I took my first poetry class, and that was really amazing because all these little chicken scratches that I had all over everywhere in a million different journals, I was able to kind of make sense of, of an art form to apply them to.

And, and it was really amazing. And I, I learned something too about form poetry, which I thought, because I always wanted my freedom and I was that type of person who, you know, never wanted to have too much structure mm-hmm . And I found out for one thing for mental health structure is just really, really important.

And the people who most need it are the people who fight it the most as far as having structure in their lives. So it's really, really interesting. But as far as the poetry goes, there's something called form poems where they, you know, have specific rhyme schemes or syllables, uh, et cetera to follow. And I thought, well, that sounds too restricting.

But once I started doing it, I really saw the freedom within the boundaries and restrictions, which is also, I guess, kind of a metaphor for my life. You know, mm-hmm, because you can have, you know, when you have a structure to lean on, you can have a lot of freedom in that. And I think that's kind of what the Catholicism that I reengaged with does for me too.

It just, it gives me that kind of a moral structure or a guideline for living that I really was lacking. And as much as I thought, I. I just valued my freedom. I feel more free now having that structure. That's incredible. Yeah. So, you know, going back to the church was really huge for me. Yeah. How, how, in particular, I'm curious, like reengaging that faith, cuz uh, you know, there's a lot of people listening right now and people out in our culture in general who have, you know, real issues with, uh, religion and they just don't want anything to do with God.

And they see it as restricting and you're saying, no, it's actually freeing. I was, I was an atheist. My dad became atheist after the divorce and you know, I was my family. We were raised pro-choice. You know, you say the word God to me and I would cringe, like it's, you know, poison mm-hmm . I mean, that's how, that's how far on the spectrum of that I was, and then I just, I was always searching for something I just needed.

I knew I needed something in my life and wanted something more. And I just, I really didn't know what, and I was, you know, just trying to reach out, like, try on the faith kind of, and, you know, engage a little or talk to people of faith. And it didn't, you know, it's like a jacket that doesn't quite fit, right?

Like for many years I was like trying to, you know, make it fit. Like it was uncomfortable. It wasn't natural. And I just, one of the things, like I said, like before I even started listening to what the church was teaching, I had already learned what was working and what wasn't working in my life and already kind of.

Formed my own opinions about that. And then when I went back to the Catholic church, I realized that they were saying a lot of the things, not like I've discovered this because obviously it's 2000 years old. But, um, but they were saying a lot of things that I had already through trial and error and a lot of error and a lot of hardship had figured out for myself in my life, what works.

Yeah. And, and just the idea of, you know, living a moral life, having, I, I think where the freedom comes in the most is just the freedom that you feel, um, which really maybe at its core is peace. Like a, a, a clean conscience, something you don't, we're not walking around thinking, you know, that you, you have all this guilt on your back though.

You know, all of us have made mistakes and like we've talked about we're all hypocrites in some way. Yeah. I, I think, I think that's where a lot of the, the peace and the freedom comes from. It's just like, there, there is something too, uh, living a good life living life the right way, instead of just doing whatever you want.

There's so much emptiness in that, that, that I've experienced. And I know you have too. Yeah, for me, it was the piece of, of self control where I could, you know, when you don't have self control, you're. not really making your own choices. You're making choices out of either a pain or an addiction or something else.

But when you develop more self control, you're making more free choices and you just, you feel more free. Like you're actually choosing it and you're not just being run by some pre-programmed thing that something you're running away from or running to, or. You know, trying to find a magic pill for your life.

So, no, that's so good that self-mastery leads to freedom. I, I love that you obviously are very dedicated to continuing to heal and to grow, but you've made a lot of progress and it's inspiring to, to look at you and look at your life. And so, uh, yeah, I'm just curious, how is your life different now contrast that if you would, for us start with friends and support.

So, I mean, it used to be a chore trying to make friends. Like, I really didn't even know how to make friends. And when you, when you get out of like a college environment or, you know, some place where it's really easy to meet people, and I sometimes when you're a parent, you can make friends through your kids, but I had a kid who wasn't very social, so it kind of blew that for me.

sure. And so. You know, you don't realize sometimes how hard it is cuz when you're younger, it just seems kind of natural. You know, you're either on a sports team together or you go to school together or whatever and it just happens. And then when you become adults, so, you know, I moved here and it was actually really good for me to make a move as an adult, cuz then I had to work harder at it.

And you know, I'm on the internet Googling how to make friends, how to be a good friend, which sounds really absurd, but it's pretty cool. They had some good advice on there. So, but now that I've done some healing, even in the last two, three years, things just really started to fall into place. So naturally like, like effortless, completely effortless.

I'm just astounded. I had struggled so much and that it's now so effortless. It just kind of blows my mind. So, so that's in, you know, in the area of my marriage, you know, I had a very contentious marriage for probably 17 of the now 20 years. And we had some huge healing in our marriage. I would say miraculous, you know, that happened through my healing.

So the thing is, people always say, well, you can't change someone. You can't change. You know, you can't change the other person and that's true. But the thing you can do is change yourself and. A lot of times in a marriage, you're like, well, I'm not the problem. They're the problem. Why, why am I gonna go to therapy?

You know, the thing is everybody has some sort of childhood wound, not just adult children of divorce. Everybody does, you know, so I went to therapy and worked on myself and then you come back and you're behaving slightly different. You're just, you're healing. You're, you know, you're a different person and people have no.

But to react to that because we react off of each other and what we're giving each other mm-hmm . And I had started learning boundaries without even really having a name for that. It was just, you know, kind of speaking my mind and not, not holding things in and just all sorts of stuff, but, you know, my husband completely changed.

He did like 180 degree turn at one point, like was a completely different person. Wow. I mean, it was shocking to me from my healing. He, he shifted and changed as well. And we, you know, our marriage has improved tremendously. I'm also. More of a forgiving person. I used to hold grudges. Like for years I could hold a grudge.

I was the, I was the queen of grudges and , you know, making myself a victim. So I've lost that victim mentality and grudges and just, yeah, the depression's gone. I just have a lot more joy and beautiful. And I'm sure there's so much more that we could talk about when it comes to, to that. I, I did wanna go back to something you said before, uh, your depression, your, your, uh, seemingly chronic depression yeah.

Was just healed. Like, how did you do that? I, I think a lot of people listening right now are like, whoa, that's incredible. What happened there? Going into that a little bit more, if you would. Well, some of it's through therapy. I, I honestly think a large part of it was in healing of my marriage too, because that was causing me a lot of distress.

So. I'd say that's probably the biggest part of it. And the other thing is in, you know, when we talked about self discipline or self mastery, like trying to discipline my thoughts, for instance, if I would start going to a dark place, I mean, I would literally like, just stop myself and say, no, no, and you know, or whatever Satan be gone, whatever you have to tell yourself.

And I would just, I would stop that spiral of negative thoughts because that's just, it can really take a hold of you so easily. Um, so I, I really leaned on, on the church and the faith a lot for that to. To just kind of, yeah. Control my thoughts. Yeah. Not be a victim and it's not just not, it's not just a matter of like positive thinking.

You know, you really have to find the joy. Like in, in my marriage, there was a lot wrong and I had to learn how to trust all over again, trust my husband. And it wasn't just, I didn't have trust from being a child of divorce, which was there, but I also didn't trust him because he didn't fight fair. He wouldn't stay in the room and talk.

He would walk away from me. There was all sorts of very immature and harmful behavior that was going on. So when we were healing, like when he did his 180 turnaround, you know, he has a thing in business where it's like trust, but verify. And so it was kind of like that. I was like, well, when's the other shoe gonna drop?

When's he gonna change back like the Jacqueline hide to how he was or who he was and like, how can, how can someone change that radically? So it really took at least a year, maybe a little longer, but you know, at least a, a good year before I thought, wow, this is, this is really taking hold. He, this is real.

But in the meantime, like all these thoughts from the past would come up because like I said, I had lived a long, long time in a very bad marriage and I had to fight those thought. All the time and say, no, I'm, you know, I'm moving forward. I can, I can see with my eyes what's happening now. I can let the past go.

You know? And I don't need my mind to go there and remind me how bad it was, you know, mm-hmm cause it's cuz it's a new day and we're, and we're moving forward and I'm, I'm forgiving and I'm verifying that, you know, his actions are, are matching up with what he's saying and what I'm seeing. And. That was really, really difficult to try to kind of build trust where there was none.

Yeah. Not only that, but there, there was harm and there was yeah. All sorts of issues while that's incredible. I wanna go back and touch on relationships that it's appropriate that we're here now because I think something that's. So moving in your story, um, that, that you've explained to me is that, uh, a lot of.

The brokenness in your past was sexual in nature. Like you had a lot of sexual brokenness, but you've also found healing through your own sexuality, which is really beautiful in God's plan for sexuality, which is just amazing. You obviously grew up, you know, with the sexual revolution and there were just so there's so much confusion and so much misunderstanding, you know, on one end of the spectrum, there were people who were just living out their sexuality without any sort of limits or control.

And then on the other end, there were people who were, uh, very repressive and they looked down on sexuality. I thought it was bad and dirty and all this. So neither of those are right for anyone's listening, who like be confused. There is a middle ground and, uh, sex is good and beautiful, but it needs to be in its proper place.

Like you said so well before Sandy. Um, but yeah, if you would touch on that a little bit of how, yeah, just how that's played out in your own life and having made those mistakes and then now, uh, having found healing, especially in your marriage. Yeah. Well obviously, like I said before, you know, the. and then I don't wanna say like out of wedlock sex, but it was really just, you know, a sex where people were using each other and that kind of promiscuous sex was just so damaging.

So when I got married and we were having lots of problems also, and my husband too, I don't know, I think has some issues with feelings of being unloved or, you know, not having enough love. He needs a lot of, a lot of reassurance and a lot of attention. And anyways, so when we were having marital problems, you know, he was saying, well, everything's great.

Everything's great. Except for this, you know, we just need to work on this one point part of our marriage. And like I've said to other people, you know, you can't have. A hundred percent wonderful marriage over here, and then you have a bad sex life. It's like they go hand in hand. So, you know, he just wasn't able to see what I was seeing or understand, you know, kind of how bad our marriage was and that I was reacting to that.

Like, you know, how can I be attracted or be motivated to be with this person physically when they're treating me so badly, you. So the first therapy that we ever went to was a sex therapist. wow. And it was, it felt so forced. I really felt like I was being dragged there because I knew that there was more issues underneath and mm-hmm I thought this was kind of ridiculous, but I went, so that was interesting, but it didn't, it didn't ultimately help.

Okay. Yep. Yeah. Anyway, so, so when we were, when we finally went back to marriage therapy, I'd say, you know, maybe it was two, three years ago, and even that didn't help so much, but I did start to realize that I, I have an opinion about marriage, that, you know, how the sex goes is an indication of how the marriage is going.

You know, and, and I know a lot of people when my sisters and I started talking about this and she started talking to her friends, you know, there's quite a few people in married who have sex once a month. Or less. And it's, it's pretty interesting, but part of it with me is that I didn't understand how important it was.

Like I read this book called for women only, and it talks about the sexual needs of men, not just as a physical outlet, but how it really is part of their identity and their, their self-esteem, their confidence and everything wrapped up to it. And, you know, because I was in the habit of using men and them using me, you know, all I saw was.

Okay. It's just this physical part. Mm-hmm and it seemed kind of selfish. And I, especially cuz women usually don't have as much of a sex drive, so it just seemed kind of selfish on their part. And I had this, you know, idea of who men were and their sexuality, which really I kind of got enlightened by this book anyway.

Um, so yeah, we started, um, the, the funny thing is the therapist was trying to, you know, force us to kind of be more physical and, you know, let's draw, draw, um, days from a, a hat and we're gonna decide, and we're gonna schedule it and we're gonna do all this. And then at the time our relationship was so bad that that didn't really work out so well either mm-hmm but, um, it just, it really seemed like all the things that should have worked, you know, it's like going to therapy and going to a sex therapist and.

You know, let's have dates and let's, you know, pull names of the days of the week out of a hat and do all this. And, and it was just all really, really forced until we healed our relationship on a deeper level. You know, I do know that I, now I'm so much more, um, conscious of his needs sexually. Like I don't, I don't know how to say it.

Like I just, instead of like, oh, I have to do this duty, which sometimes, you know, wives feel it's more like, well, no, this is critical to him and his identity and his wellbeing. And so it's kind of, I've really shifted in my thinking about it. You know, if you love somebody and you're available to them, you know, emotionally and physically in marriage, you should be as well.

So, um, it's. . Yeah, I don't, I don't know what to say about that, but we, we definitely healed and I thought, I thought this is kind of my, my burden, because I had been so reckless with my body and my sexuality as a young person, I thought, you know, in the Catholic faith, a lot of times you talk about how your wound is your, is your path to healing or to salvation, or, you know, Absolut, things like that.

And so, so that's kind of how I looked at it. I'm like, we're really struggling in this area. You know, I don't know if it was caused by my past life or his past life or whatever, cuz he had some sexual sin in his first marriage, but whatever it is, this. Potentially the path forward. And so I kind of had to have a radical change in thought on that whole topic.

And I know people don't talk about that much either in marriage. So it's, it's probably an interesting, interesting topic. I'm glad you're talking about, because I think this needs to be said a lot of this stuff needs to be said. And what I've noticed too, in marriage is that, uh, from the women women's point of view, like what makes her want to have sex is emotional intimacy typically, right?

Yes. And for a man it's like, we just wanna have sex because we just wanna have sex. And that leads to emotional intimacy for us. Like we feel close to our wives because of that. So , someone's gotta start that, like the man has to make the effort to be emotionally intimate and then the, and the wife maybe perhaps needs to be a little bit more, not aggressive, but assertive.

You know, understanding, like you said, that, you know, her husband needs to be loved in this way, cuz so many men that sort of love language, physical touch and, and it's a team sport, right? It's not just one or the other. We both get on it together. Right. But I have noticed that, but what you're saying, so the men still do need, the emotional intimacy is just totally, it's just in a different order.

So, you know, it's definitely there and you know, I know that, you know, our sex life is not strained. You know, I realize how much. Yeah, actual intimacy. He feels from having, you know, that physical connection. And so there's definitely an emotional element to it for men as well. You know, it's a, they, they need to feel loved.

They need to feel attractive. They need to feel valued. I mean, it's just, you know, it's not just all about this physical thing. There's, there's a lot more to it emotionally. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I probably didn't say that as well as I could have. Like, what I was trying to say is like for the wives, emotional intimacy often leads to them wanting, having sex for men having sex alt often leads to them, wanting to be emotionally intimate with, uh, with their wives.

That's what I was trying to say. yes. Yes. So good. Was anything else that you would add on how, uh, the divorce affected. Your relationships, you touched on so many things already, but I just wanted to give you an opportunity to say any final thoughts on how, um, that had affected your relationships and even your marriage.

The one thing that I know is that I was very hopeless. A lot of times growing up I had was very cynical. I, I really didn't see any hope for my life. You know, cuz like we talked about earlier, I felt like this was my personality and all these faults I had and all, all these, you know, addictive behaviors and all the things that I couldn't change about myself for so many years.

And I just, I was really stuck in hopelessness. That's that's huge because it colors your whole life. You know, whether you have hope or don't have hope that you can change or things can be better, you know, because without hope what is there really? I don't know. yeah. Yeah. It was, it was big. I mean, I just, I'm just so grateful that.

I've had some healing that I've found the church that I found. Some things that work for me, cuz again, it was just, you know, it was getting from a practical point. Like my life's not working. I need to do something. I need something. Yeah. I don't know what it is. I definitely need something because this just can't continue the way it is.

It's it just, it wasn't workable. I mean, I know that sounds kind of like a practical way of thinking, but like really in practicality, like my life wasn't working. Absolutely. And, uh, yeah. That's where we live life in the practical , you know, they're like the abstract is important, but I I'm totally with you.

There it's like that. That's what really led me to change was just the emptiness that I felt. I was like, I don't wanna feel this way. I wanna be happy. Yeah. You kind of, kind of hit rock bottom or, you know, you make, you make a change, no matter how hard it is or whatever, you find a way to make a change because you realize that you deserve more and life has more to offer.

You wanna be a part of that, whatever that, whatever that life is, that's waiting for you. Yeah. And that could be so hard to believe when you're in the midst of like depression or just hopelessness and you're struggling and you feel broken. It's hard to believe, like there's even light at the end of the tunnel.

That life can be any different because often, like you said, we just fall into these cycles where maybe we maybe stop the reckless behavior for a little bit, but we kind of know in our bones, it's like, well, I'll be back soon. I'll be back to the drinking to sleeping around, to doing, you know, risky things to feel alive.

And, um, but, but you actually can have sustained change. Life can be better and different. And that's one of the things I love about your story. Sandy is, you know, you, you turn things around so much in your life by God's grace. Of course. I know you would say that, but yes, it, it's just amazing. And so, yeah, I, I'm so grateful for you.

Being here, uh, coming on the show, doing this long interview and just opening your heart to, to me and to everyone who's listening. I know it's gonna help so many people, if people wanna get in touch with you, how do they do that? Yeah, they can email me at Sandra Howlet, 25, icloud.com, a N D H O w L E T T five.

icloud.com. I know I have one blog that's coming out on life, giving wounds website and hopefully more so they'll be able to see some of my writing on there. Awesome. And I know you've written for us too, so we'll make sure to throw that into the show notes. If anyone wants more from, from Sandy. Thank you so much, Sandy.

Again, I just wanna give you the last word. What, what encouragement would you give to, to a young person listening right now who does feel very broken? Who feels stuck in life? Uh, because of the trauma they've been through in their own family. What, what words of encouragement would you give to them? I would just say never, ever, ever, ever give up.

that's all I can say that things can be better. Things will be better. Just figure out what you need to do to help your own healing. It doesn't happen on its own. You have to work hard. You have to work hard at relationships at marriages at healing. Healing's hard, it's vulnerable, you know, it's not, it's not easy.

People like to just. Think that they can forget things and move on, but you know, like, you know, in my story, if there's stuff there, you don't just move on, you have to deal with it and then you can move on. So, you know, take that. Big jump and, and deal with the hard stuff. And then, you know, hopefully it'll become less and less hard and you can have a beautiful life.

One thing that stuck with me that Sandy touched on is that feeling of hopelessness. I think we all face it, especially those of us who come from broken families. I know I've dealt with it personally and it's truly debilitating. And so when we feel that way, when you feel that. Just remember that there is always hope.

There's always hope, especially when things feel impossibly hopeless. Remember that night is darkest just before the Dawn. So hang in there. It can get better. In fact, if you work to heal and grow yourself like Sandy did, you will get better. You won't be able to avoid suffering in your life, but you will be better able to handle them.

If you heal and grow and you'll feel freer, you feel happier and you'll feel whole again. And I remember the words of GK Chesterton, who said hope, means hoping when everything. Seems hopeless. A question for you to think about is what's the simplest most basic thing that you can do where you are right now in life to begin or continue healing and growing.

Just one thing doesn't need to be huge. In fact, it's more important than you just take action, even if it's really small than doing something monumental. Because if we never act our lives, won't get better. We won't get better. So we need to take action. We have to put the work in. So what's the simplest most basic thing that you can do right now, where you are to begin or continue healing and growing.

One simple thing that we recommend is sharing your story. One of the benefits of sharing your story, that it's actually healing on a neuro biological level, it makes your brain healthier. And studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their. Are less depressed.

They're less anxious, they're healthier, they're happier. And if you share that story, either in writing or through talking to someone with someone else, that's additionally healing for your brain on a neurobiologic level, it makes you more whole, and by sharing your story, also, you give guidance and hope to people who may be going through the same things that you are, or you did in the past.

And so if you wanna share your story in written form, you can do that. Go to restored ministry.com/story. Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/story on there. You'll fill out a form. It'll guide you in telling a concise version of your story. It'll take a little bit of time to do that, and then we'll turn it into an anonymous blog article.

And so we'd love to hear your story. Go ahead and share your story today@restoredministry.com slash story, the resources mentioned are on the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 47. Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful. Please share this podcast with someone, you know, who could use and always.

You are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

The Voice of Fear

1 minute read.

“Run while you can.
It may hurt now but it will hurt much more later
when they tire of trying and let go of your hand.
They’ll sit back as you wrestle
as you fight to hold on
but their grasp is so light and desire so fickle.
They’ll soon try to free themselves when they no longer want
what they so ardently admired and desperately sought.
You’re shiny and they easily entranced
by things that gleam, by things they don’t understand.
But there are things that are deeper
things that are more than they want
because it’s too much
much more than they thought.
Much more than the glint they first longed to see closer
they claim to crave more but know not what’s in store
because even what shines has darkness inside.
You may try to hide it
they won’t see it at first
and will happily promise things that are really just words.
Don’t hold it against them, they know not what they do
just smile politely and answer ‘me too.’
One thing is certain and that is in time
their once tight grip will become loose.
They want to be free
they don’t know how to stay
and even the most eager affection will fade.
I hate to admit it
the safest, lamentable plan
and that is, dear friend,
to run while you can.”
— Fear

This article was written by Miranda Henkel, a contributing writer for the Restored blog. It has been reposted with permission. It originally appeared on her blog, First Class Act.

#046: Becoming a Great Parent: Learning from Your Parents’ Virtues and Vices | Miranda Henkel

What did you learn about parenting from your parents that you want to repeat with your kids? What do you not want to repeat?

The answers to those questions are extremely valuable in helping you become the best parent you can be. But sadly, most of us don’t dig deep enough. Today, we do by talking about:

• Our experiences as new parents with babies who haven’t been born yet

• Our fears about becoming parents

• Answer: Do we feel more confident about marriage or parenting?

• 6 things kids need from their parents and how to fill those needs

• Reflect on lessons learned from our parents, good and bad, and how we want to parent

Has Restored helped you? Let us know how.

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Why Your Family of Origin Impacts Your Life More Than Anything Else

• Contact Miranda at Miranda@RestoredMinistry.com

• Contact Joey at Joey@RestoredMinistry.com

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To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

What did you learn about parenting from your parents that you wanna repeat with your kids? What do you not wanna repeat? Those are important questions that sadly we don't really think about often. We don't really talk about much, but the answers. Are extremely valuable. It's something I've been reflecting on lately because in no time, my wife, Bridget, and I will be welcoming our baby girl into the world.

And I'm so excited. Can't wait to meet her. Can't wait to love on her. But as someone who comes from a broken family, becoming a dad, brings out a lot of fears and insecurities. And maybe because I don't wanna make the same mistakes that I saw on my parents make. And I know I'm not alone in feeling that we know that young people from broken families feel the same when it comes to becoming a mom or a dad.

So we wanted to do a podcast episode on this topic from the perspective of two new parents. And so I'm joined by Miranda. One of our team members at restored, who's been on the podcast before you met, recognize her, her husband, Steven, and her are expecting a baby girl as well. It's super exciting, really happy for them.

And so we thought it'd be helpful to share our experience of becoming parents to give you some hope that you can do it too, that you're capable of doing it. And hopefully even give some advice based on the lessons that we've learned. And so what you're gonna hear in this episode, we're gonna share our experiences as new parents, with babies who actually haven't been born yet.

We'll talk about our fears about becoming parents. And we are kind of an interesting question. Do we feel more confident about marriage or about parenting? We discuss the six things that kids need from their parents and how to fill those needs. And then we reflect on lessons that we've learned from our parents, the good and the bad and how we wanna parent our kids in the future.

And if you're not a parent, I want you to know that this episode is still for you. This is not just for parents or for new parents, but really anyone who hopes to be a parent one day, or maybe anyone who's really struggling to believe that they could be a good parent one day because of what they come from.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 46 today. I'm joined by one of our awesome team members here at restored Miranda.

Henkel. You might know her by Miranda Rodriguez. That's her maiden name? Miranda was born in Carus, Venezuela. Although she spent most of her childhood in North Carolina when she was 10, her family moved back to Venezuela where her life was changed forever. When her parents divorced a year later, shortly after she and her younger sister moved with her mother back to the United States and settled in Charleston, South Carolina Miranda graduated from Clemson university in 2015, moved back to Charleston where she met her husband and married him in 2020.

They now reside in Florida where her husband is stationed with the us Navy. She now works for ReSTOR to help other children of divorce heal and grow Miranda, enjoys the beach beer, trying to understand poetry and making fun of her husband. Before we dive into this conversation. I just wanna say that we're pretty raw and real in this conversation about our experiences as children and especially the way that our parents treated us and just wanna make it clear.

We don't wanna hurt them. In fact, Miranda. And I agreed that we usually go out of our way to protect our parents even perhaps to a fault. And so just wanna be super clear that we're not having this conversation to demonize our parents or any parents out there, but rather to, to learn from their good qualities, their virtues and their vices, their bad qualities, so that we can become the best parents that we can be.

And so, as you'll hear in the conversation, though, this conversation is pretty honest and vulnerable. We try to keep it very constructive and helpful in talking about this stuff. I hope it's beneficial to you, but please know that we're not here to make our parents look bad or to demonize them in any way.

And if this is helpful, we might continue doing this as our children grow up. As Miranda's little girl grows up and as my little girl grows up, this is a very important conversation. Here it is

Miranda. Good to have you back. Thanks, Joey. It's good to be here. How are you doing? How's your pregnancy going? I, I know, uh, we talk from time to time, but yeah. How are things going? They are going better. The first trimester was really tough but it's gotten second trimester has been a lot easier, which I'm really, really grateful for.

I, I think I was caught off guard with the difficulty of pregnancy. Like you kind of hear about the different symptoms and what different women experience. Um, so it wasn't like a, it shouldn't have been a huge shock, but I think sure when you're going through it. it's just different. And I read this piece that kind of described it as like a moral bootcamp and that really resonated with me because you kind of, you do like start to learn a lot about self sacrifice, like continually putting the needs of someone else above yours.

Yeah. It's not, it's not easy. Um, and it, it definitely is kind of a stripping of things you maybe thought were important or like valued a whole lot for me, things like productivity, you know, making sure I was getting certain amount of stuff done during the day. And like things like, you know, what you weigh and you know, how much you're working out, like all that kind of changes.

And it's really important, you know, for you to. Like to be more cautious, I guess, like in terms of, you know, getting more sleep and eating well and not pushing yourself too hard physically, but letting go of those things has been harder than I, I thought, because I think more of my worth was attached to them than I realized.

Hmm. It's been, yeah, just like a humbling experience. Very, I think kind of purifying of, okay. Like these are things that I kind of thought that made me valuable and made me important and made me feel good about myself and now I don't have them or I have them, you know, to a lesser extent. So now what, and so, yeah, it's definitely been, and I think too, there are certain things in our culture that affect that mindset because, you know, beauty and, and health and all these things are really, really.

Valued. And so when you feel like you're falling short, because you're physically in kind of a different state than most people, it's just, yeah. It's like, wow. Like, you know, where is my place in society now? Hmm. And so it's just been a kind of interesting experience and I am starting to see the value in it.

Um, I'm starting to see like, okay. Like it, it is important to grow in virtue as you're getting ready to become a parent. And just in general, like, that's, that's just a good thing to do to grow as a person mm-hmm . Um, but especially as a mom, like, you know, you, you want to be selfless. And so all of this stuff is kind of preparing you for that, but yeah, it's, it's hard and, um, totally.

So, yeah, so it's overall, I'm doing well, and I'm definitely grateful that some of the really hard stuff from the first trimester has. Has gotten better. So. I'm really thankful for that. Um, but yeah, it's definitely kind of been an interesting, interesting four months. Yeah. So it's not just changes physically.

There's a lot of other, a lot of other things going on, um, inside you, which is good. That that's beautiful. It's so good to be challenged and to be growing like one of my greatest fears in life is just being complacent and comfortable and, you know, I definitely have to fight that frequently because it's just so easy in our world to become complacent and comfortable.

But, um, it's so good when you experience discomfort. I think because it, it often is maybe not always, but it often is the sun that you're growing something good is happening. So I'm glad to hear that. I mean, it's, uh, I'm sure not fun in the moment, but I think you'll look up and sounds like you already are and see.

Okay. I've made some progress. Yeah, no, I definitely think that, like you said, discomfort is kind of needed for growth. So it's just embracing the discomfort. Totally, totally. And I've heard that a lot about the first trimester and that's what Bridget experienced as well. So she was pretty sick during the first trimester.

We had a first pregnancy as you know, and that was actually worse in the first trimester, uh, for her like a lot of nausea and other things going on. And then, um, we had a miscarriage, which people I've said on the show before, and then, um, this pregnancy, so this is our second and things were a little bit better in the first trimester from my point of view, but maybe she was a different story, but it's uh, yeah.

Then second trimester got a lot better and now we're in the third and baby's just getting big and it's just getting more uncomfortable for her, but she feels pretty good, which is. Yeah, that's awesome. I wanna go back to some, you said quickly, which is just, I think so many of us attribute our value to some characteristic of ourselves, right?

Like growing up, I was athletic, like, like my whole family is, and I was never, you know, the greatest athlete didn't go pro in anything. I didn't go D one or anything like that, but I was a good athlete for, for where I was. And after, you know, I played a year of baseball in college and then after. Um, no, you know, sports aside from, you know, just messing around with friends or intermural sports in college.

And, um, it was a big change for me, cuz I was like, okay, I literally, that was such a big part of my identity and then it's gone and you know, I was used to being like the captain on the team and used to being good at sports. And then now I'm not really kind of in that environment at all. So it does challenge you to kind of redefine your identity, um, and challenges you to, uh, realize that maybe those things that I think are so important, aren't actually as important as I thought, right?

Yeah, no, that's totally a hundred percent true. And even the things that everyone else thinks are so important, maybe aren't that important so it's like totally. Yeah, it definitely it's one of those things that I don't think you would come to you, you may like intellectually understand, but until you have to kinda live without it.

You don't really face. You don't really confront that reality. Totally. And I think you, ladies face so much pressure from society to be perfect, to be smart and sexy and successful and all these things. And, uh, I think there is, yeah. When, when you're pregnant, obviously there's so many things that are changing.

Like you said, you're not able to do the things that you normally did, so you don't really fit that mold in the same way that maybe you once did. Um, and, uh, yeah, that can be really challenging, especially like I'm saying to someone who got a lot of their value, like you mentioned from maybe the way that they look or the things they were able to do, uh, physically like sports and all that stuff.

So it is, it is a big change. So I don't envy you. I'm glad, uh, things are going well. Yeah, and I'm definitely feeling better. So I'm really grateful for that. That's great. I wanted to ask, how do you feel about being a mom? Um, I'm definitely daunted. Um, I think just the level of self sacrifice that is clearly necessary, um, is something that is escapes me, you know, just, I don't, I can't, it's hard to fathom that level of just dying self.

And I do. I mean, I, I, it seems like it's something natural. It just because so many moms seem to embody that, um, it does seem like to a degree. Yeah, there it is kind of innate, so I'm like really like, okay, , we'll see, but I am intimidated by, by how much you really have to die to self and learn to. Yeah, put someone else first and I don't think it was, I, I remember so clearly having a conversation before I knew right before I knew I was pregnant with a friend and I was like, I had been reading mother Teresa.

I was like, yeah, like I really just want to give myself to something, you know, the, and I just thought it was so beautiful the way that she just totally gave herself for this ministry, you know, of helping the lepers in Calta and serving them. And I was, you know, I felt that longing and then like a month later or less, I, it started and, um, I didn't realize how attached I was to kind of my single, even though I wasn't single anymore, but you know, just the idea of like being able to do kind of whatever you want whenever you want.

And. yeah, like that independence, that freedom, that status almost of mm-hmm , you know, you're young and you're untethered all that stuff. And I did not realize how attached I was to those things until I started confronting the idea of motherhood. So overall. Wow. Yeah. It's a little like overwhelming, but, but I'm also hopeful, you know, that when the baby comes, there's gonna be more of a, it like just falling into place, you know, it just seems like so many moms.

I talk to just talk about the joy and the, I guess like sense of satisfaction that they get from, from motherhood. So it does seem like there's a lot of goodness there. It's just, I think when you haven't had a kid yet, mm-hmm , uh, even though you're, you know, even though I'm, I'm pregnant, It doesn't sink in the same way yet.

Totally. Yeah. We'll have to have this conversation again after our baby arrives and your baby arrives. Yes . So I'm sure it'll be a different conversation at that point. No, that, that makes so much sense. Like it's kind of the intimidation factor and I think. Coming from, you know, a broken home play, plays a role in this to, I thinking about kind of what I'm, uh, feeling about being a dad, a new dad, I would say I'm excited.

It's kind of surreal at the same time. It's like, wow. Like I have a baby, like that is unreal. Like how did this happen? yeah. And, uh, and yeah, just like you said, kind of overwhelming. Uh, but at the same time I feel ready. And I think part of the reason for that it may be kind of odd, but part of the reason for that is that, uh, in, in a way I've kind of played that parent role for my siblings, um, at different points in life.

And so it's kind of odd, but I do feel a little bit more confident about parenting than I did or do even about marriage . And so again, I, I think that experience I've had in the past, uh, does, does play a role cuz I'm. Number two of six, we have a big family. Mm-hmm so I, you know, at times when dad wasn't around, I just kind of assumed that role of being father in a way to, to my siblings.

So, yeah, kind of interesting. Um, I was telling someone about that lately and I don't know it is. Can you relate to that at all? About being more confident, maybe about parenting than about marriage? I would say. Yeah. Like I, I don't feel the same acute fear that I feel about marriage. Like I think with marriage, it was, it was really scary.

It was really almost painful in a way to think about cuz you think about all the ways it could go wrong and I don't feel that way with parenting. Um, I don't have that same phobia almost if you wanna call it that mm-hmm so I do feel in that regard a little bit more equipped. I do think our experiences were different because like you said, you're, you know, number two of six.

So you had several younger siblings that. You know, you really stepped up and had to kind, I take care of. And so you are more comfortable in that caretaker role. I think something I regret from yeah, like the divorce and, and how it all went down is that I do think I kind of neglected my little sister.

Like I was so caught up in just what I was feeling and how to cope and almost like isolated myself a little bit. And I do think Christina got, you know, she just, I think she got neglected a little bit, at least, you know, maybe not by my parents, but I feel like I could have been a better sister to her if I hadn't been kind of.

Dealing with certain emotional difficulties. So I don't think I'm, I don't think I feel the same level of confidence that you do. Um, because I kind of remember that experience and I wish I had handled it better. I think you were able to kind of assume the responsibility, you know, you weren't, wasn't really meant to be yours, like that should never have happened, but I think now you're more equipped going into parenthood because of that experience that you had.

Hmm. Yeah. No, well, let's hope so. maybe my feeling of confidence is like MIS founded, but I, uh, no, I, I hear what you're saying and that's a tricky spot to be in. Like you said, it's not your role to be Christina's parent, but you know, at the same time, right there, there's a certain gap maybe that needs to be filled and there's yeah, there there's of course your sibling relationship, which is hard.

And it's so tricky, just touching on this idea that we have to step into the parent role. Mm-hmm, , it's such a weird thing because I know for me, uh, there was just a season that I just had to do that in and I tried not to let it dictate my entire life, cuz I could have just never. Moved on with my, I know people like that.

Like I know people who, they just see that their family's really broken. They wanna be there for maybe mom or dad and their siblings. And they just like, don't move forward in life. Not that that's a bad thing. Like maybe in certain cases that's okay. But I've seen it be bad. Like I've seen it be detrimental because they're literally not moving on in life, not doing what they should be doing or what they feel called to be doing, because they feel the sense of obligation to be there.

Mm-hmm and so it's a tricky balance, but I like what I, what I typically tell people, if I'm talking to 'em about this is there might be a season in life where you have to fill that role. You're not supposed to. But if there's just that void and there's no other alternative, then you might just need to now, if there is an alternative, a good alternative, then that should be taken so that you can just be a kid, you can go through life and just grow up.

But if you can't find that alternative and you have to fill that role fully, or in some ways, then I personally think it's kind of a matter of necessity. It's like, okay, I just have to fill this role, even if it's not ideal. Um, but never wanna remain in that position. I'm curious what you think about that.

That's just kind of what I've come to over the years. Um, any thoughts on that? Well, I think it's one it's really like so cool that you had that awareness of like, you know, my siblings need me and I'm kind of it right now. You know, I, it's not supposed to be that way, but like you said, there's this void and I don't think I had that mental.

Awareness. Like, I don't think I'd ever clicked of like, oh yeah. Like my sister needs someone to help her with, with all this stuff. So I think, I think I do think that it's true. And I think that if you can realize that it's SU it is gonna be super helpful for them. And also, and you'll, yeah. I don't know if you'll, this will resonate with you or not, but sometimes when you help someone else, you know, it kind of helps mitigate your own grief in a way.

Mm. Yeah. It's something about, um, switching the focus to some, to another person and having a sense of like, okay, you know, X, Y, Z is falling apart. I can't do anything about that, but I can do this. You know, I can be there for this person. I can comfort or whatever it is. So I do think that in a way, like, again, like you said, it's not ideal, it's not, what's supposed to happen, but it could be beneficial, you know, mutually beneficial for, for your siblings and for yourself, if you're able to, to offer some comfort that way.

Totally. And I totally relate to what you're saying. In fact, that was really helpful for me. And one of my mentors communicated that to me, that, you know, one of the things that you can do to help heal is to take the focus off yourself. And there is a balance there. And I know, I know you would agree with this, that I think some people use that as an excuse, never to deal with their issues and never to heal, never to face their brokenness.

I think I I've certainly done that at times, but, uh, at the same time, I do think there's something very constructive and healthy about looking beyond your own pain. And one of my favorite movies, probably my, my favorite movie is Batman begins, um, a Batman fanatic. I love it. And in that movie, there's this great line.

Uh, Bruce is talking to his childhood friend, Rachel and Bruce had kind of been very bitter after his parents got, uh, shot and died. And he, you know, had been off to college. He went to like Princeton and he came back for the hearing of the guy who killed his parents. And basically he wanted to get revenge and kill the guy who, who shot his parents.

And anyway, without going too Mo too into the story, the, the guy ended up getting shot by someone else. And so Bruce, uh, was kind of relieved and grateful, but at the same time, he was disappointed that he couldn't do it. So the, the, what was going on in the story is that. For years, he was just so wrapped up in his own pain that he just didn't help anyone else.

He, he was just stuck in his own pain and Rachel challenged him and they were driving in the car and she's like brought him through a really bad part of Gotham. And she said, look beyond your own pain, Bruce. Like there there's, there are people who really need you. And that always stuck with me. And so I tried to do that, you know, growing up when I know I was dealing with things, but I knew that, okay, like I need to deal with those things, but at the same time, I can look beyond my own pain and help other people.

Totally. Yeah. No, that's a great example. Yeah. Sorry to go through all of that and begin, but you get the point, but. Yeah, I, uh, was also thinking just once you get to the point of leaving, it can be difficult too. Uh, it can, you can kind of create a void cuz if you're a crutch for your siblings or your mom or your dad, then once you pull away, like, are they gonna fall apart?

Like, what's it gonna look like? And so that was a big concern of mine. And I had to wrestle with, do I move on and just pursue my girlfriend at the time he was on my wife or do I kind of just stay at home and try to help out around here and all that. And so I really was conflicted with that as well. And what I came to was that it's could actually be more helpful to them in the long.

If you move on with your life and, and this isn't maybe true in every situation, like I said, there's seasons where you may be more needed, but I think, uh, one is you're modeling what it looks like to have a healthy life and, and to move on and to like live out your vocation. If you, you know, getting married to, to date and to get married and to build a family, like that's a beautiful thing.

In fact, as we've talked about a lot in the show, one of the most healing things for those of us who come from broken homes is to see healthy marriages and families. It's just so good for us. It starts to rewire that broken model that we have inside of us that says that, you know, love cant last, and this is how it looks typically and all that stuff.

So that's really good. But then also people need to learn how to stand in their own two feet. That's really important. And so I think that's a good lesson now that we're talking about parenting is that, you know, you never want to be the type of parent. Or parent role where someone's so relying on you, that they can't stand in their own two feet.

And so I think that's one of the dangers too, with filling that parent role is that you can become maybe too close to someone in an unhealthy way to where when you do pull away and move on with your life, like you should, uh, they can be left devastated. Yeah, absolutely. Let's go back to, uh, just talking about being a mom, I'm curious, what are some fears that you have about being a mom, especially someone who does come from a broken family?

I think the, the biggest one and it's probably the most obvious is like, how, how am I going to wound my kids? Yeah. It's just something that I, I feel like it comes up so often of like, oh yeah, like my mom or my dad, like, they didn't do this or they did this. And like, it affected me this way and you're like, oh my gosh.

So it's just, I think even really good parents. Do I don't know if it's fair to say, do some sort of damage, but like, you know, don't get it right. Perfect. Perfectly all the time. Mm-hmm . And so, and, and then I think a lot of times in whatever way they fall short, like there is kind of a, a repercussion and that doesn't mean that where you have no hope or that it's, um, impossible to be a good parent without being perfect.

But, um, it is something that looking back on yeah. Like my own childhood and especially the divorce and realizing that, you know, your parents really have a huge impact on just who you are as a person and the, the trajectory of your life. And so it's kind of like, yeah, like how, how am I going to, to hurt my kids?

You know, because I think as much as you try. Not to in one way or another, we're gonna, we're gonna miss the mark. So that's, I mean, you know, a little bit somber, but definitely something I wrestled with. Yeah. And then I think it's something else which this isn't really necessarily from my family. It's just kind of from observing society in general now, but like, I really, you know, want to raise kids who have good values and I've seen even really good, or at least parents that I deem to be, you know, really good people and, um, to be good parents I've seen even their kids, I guess, I don't know if lose the way is the right word way to put it, but just kind of not have a sound moral compass mm-hmm and it's like, wow, like, gosh, like these, these people who, who seem to be, you know, just good people and doing the best they can, like even.

You know, their kids somehow I think get a little lost sometimes. And so I think that's another fear I have is, is raising kids who, who don't have good values. And then I think it was Chris. I think it was him who said, you know, I thought I was a perfect parent until I had a kids. , you know, I think it's like my husband and I have a lot of conversations about like, oh yeah, like some people do this and we don't wanna do that.

Or, you know, X, Y, Z. And it it's really easy from where I'm standing right now to say, yeah, this, you know, as a parent, you should never do this. Or I can't believe people do this then I think once you have kids, like a lot of that goes out the window. I think it's just a lot hard. It's just not that black and white as you, as it seems, um, beforehand.

And I think, uh, cryonic was relating it to Rath specifically, like, I didn't know what Rath was until I had case. And I was like, oh my gosh, you know, like, it's hard to imagine, you know, like really losing your temper or something with, let's say a four year old or something mm-hmm . But I do think that it's something that, yeah, like it's, it's really challenging.

And I do think that I'm gonna be pushed in that regard. And so it's like, gosh, I hope I, you know, can I, can I handle this? Well, like, do I have what it takes to not lose it? So I think those are kind of the things that I have been kind. Percolating the past few months. Okay. No, that makes sense. And I would agree that in, you know, our parents I'm sure.

And I even know this, uh, there were just things in their lives when they were growing up, that their parents did to hurt them. And you know, it's not to demonize our grandparents or anything like that, but it's just, it's true. Like we just hurt people, especially those that we love the most. And it's so unfortunate, but it's just the broken world that we live in.

And we're gonna get to this in a little bit, but. It's really hopeful to know that it's okay. If you're not perfect, it's okay. If you hurt your child, it's okay. If you, um, fail at times, but what matters is of course making up and, uh, reestablishing that relationship and making things right. And we'll get to that in a little bit, but I couldn't agree more though, the relationship that you have with your parents growing up is the most important relationship in your life.

At least the most formative relationship in your life. And so it really is important to reflect on it and to think back like, okay, what was this like? And again, we're gonna get to that in a second, based on the podcast episode that we're gonna chat about with Adam Young, from the place we found ourselves, there's a lot of good things in there to, to talk about it, but you're so right.

About being a critic. Like it is so easy from the outside looking in to be critical. It's so easy. For example, , you know, where you just use example of podcasting, it's so easy to listen to a podcast and be like, ah, that was so annoying. Like the way that that guy talked or, you know, whatever the music and, uh, and yeah, there might be valid concern for those things, but it's like, okay, do you have a podcast?

Like, are you a pro in this area? Like, it's so easy to be a critical once you get in the midst of it, it's not as easy as it seems. And so I think that's true with parenting too. Like you said, once we're in the midst of it, um, it's gonna be different. So we'll see, we'll have this conversation again. in a little bit, and that's true though.

Yeah. Yeah. It would be, it would be great to kind of take people along this journey with us. Uh, some fears on, on my end, kinda as a dad. Same as you, like, I'm afraid how my brokenness will affect them. I'm afraid of how, you know, my imperfections devices that I struggle with are going to impact them. And yeah, man, it is so humbling and it definitely motivating to wanna work on yourself even more also.

Yeah. Yeah. Just in marriage too. It's like your kids are just absorbing on an unconscious level, everything you and your spouse do and say, and everything it's like overwhelming because literally without saying a word, you're teaching them how to love, and that is intimidating because you might not be very good at it.

And I know I'm not at times. And so like, man, I'm, I'm afraid how that is gonna affect them, uh, just as people, but also, you know, in the future, in their own relationship. So that, yeah, that is, uh, kind of scary. Do, do you relate on that front? Yeah. I mean, I, I, while you were saying that, I was like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

And I think my husband and I do think he is really good at being ch you know, charitable, um, in his actions. Like that's, I don't know. It's just very evident to me. And I'm like, I was thinking, he was like, yeah, like he must have learned that from his parents. I think it is a little daunting that they they're just little sponges.

Exactly. And they just take in so much. And I was with, um, my nephew this past weekend and, you know, seeing him chase after the tools that his dad and his granddad were using and then try to use them. , you know, you just see how much that they're taking in and, and yeah. It's like, you don't wanna mess this up.

It's not just about how you talk to them or what you say to them, or even how you treat them. It's so much about how. You are around them and how you treat your spouse and how you treat people around them that you don't like, you know? And so all those things it's like, yeah, it is a little daunting. It's.

Being put on stage, but the stakes are so much higher, you know? Totally. Yeah. It's game time. It's it's tough. And yeah, I, I think I, I wanted to say Miranda, you're gonna make a great mom and I know Steven's gonna make a great dad. And I think it's so important for those of us who come from broken homes, just to hear that and just receive that, cuz we are capable, you are capable of being a great parent.

And so I'm excited to see you grow in that role. I'm sure there'll be bumps along the way and that's be expected. But yeah, I think, and everyone listening, you're capable of, of being a great parent, you might have to work at it. You might fail a lot. You might need to, um, really grow in some areas of your life to get to that spot where you can be a, a good parent, but you are capable of it.

Yeah. Cuz I think a lot of times we probably believe and feel that, oh, I'm just so broken that I'm not capable of it. I never will be, but, but that's just a lie. Right. Yeah, you have to be hopeful. Absolutely. Another fear of mine. I guess it's more of a concern maybe than a fears, just how my kids will, um, just be impacted by my parents' divorce, how they're quote unquote, like grandchildren of divorce.

And, uh, one of my close friends, he was telling me about this recently, like his parents are together and, uh, you know, have a pretty good marriage and, uh, but his grandparents are divorced and he was just explaining how that's impacted, uh, him and, and especially his parents over the years. So I just, it's difficult to think that, you know, it'll be kind of confusing to her.

To to see like, oh, Hey, why are, you know, grandma and grandpa not together? Like, why don't they live in the same house? Yeah. It's just kind of breaks my heart to think this is this little girl who just will be asking these really legitimate questions. And there's really not a great answer for it. Yeah. I honestly hadn't really thought of that, but it's so true.

Yeah. So, and then some other things kind of that go along with that is just the drama and tension. I know different families are, are different. Some parents, uh, divorced parents get along pretty well, but I know there's always drama and tension at life events like birthdays and holidays. And like we had a baby shower recently.

I made the difficult decision to, uh, have two separate ones, one for mom, one for dad's side. And I, I kinda was going both ways cause my parents are getting along better now, which is good. But, um, I just felt like based on the past between our families, at my mom's side, my dad's side, it was gonna be more comfortable for the guests who were there and, and that just caused tension and it, it was difficult.

And my dad obviously had to plan a baby shower, which , you know, you know, it's not something a guy has to do every day. So that was just, just seeing that it was kind of a reminder, like, yep, there's gonna be more of this in the future, which is, uh, concerning. And then of course, you know, balancing everything out.

Spending time, you know, with each parent, cuz I think it just, you're your time. It's like, not that our parents don't love us and wanna see us, but once there's a grandchild, what I've seen with my friends who have grandkid or have kids and their parents like wanna see them, it's like, oh my gosh, there's no one.

They wanna see more than the grandchildren. so it's like then, you know, splitting that time between parents can be really difficult and there might be some hard feelings there if you maybe spend more time with mom than with dad and yeah, lots of challenges ahead. I'm hopeful that we'll be able to figure them out kind of as we go through those stages, but it's certainly not gonna be easy.

Absolutely. You mentioned before that, you know, even the best parents hurt their kids. And I think we all can agree that nobody's parents are perfect, but I think there is, um, something that we can learn from the good and the bad that we've been through some important lessons. And so I, I think we need to talk about this stuff.

It could be kind of uncomfortable, but I think it's, uh, if it's done out of a motivation to learn and to be better in the future, as opposed to just like bashing our parents, which you and I are not interested in doing then, uh, I think it's really good and helpful. So I wanna have that conversation right now.

Uh, MERTA, what did you learn about parenting from your parents that was good, that, that you would wanna repeat with your children? I do think they got a lot of things, right. And one of them was this idea of like the world doesn't revolve around you, you know, like you're not. , you're not the center of the universe.

Like you, um, are part of bigger reality and in a sense, like, it sounds harsh, but I think it's good for you to recognize that there's more going on than just what you're going through, what you're experiencing and people aren't always gonna play by your roles. You know, sometimes you have to kind of accommodate, you know, an objective morality or a truth that, that exists kind of apart from you or outside of just what you think or what you feel.

I think that was a good lesson for us, cuz I think we all learned pretty quickly, like, you know, to adapt to whatever situation we were in and to like work for whatever it is we wanted to, and like in line with that, another thing that they, you know, either directly or indirectly taught us was, you know, entitlement.

Can they get you anywhere? Like you, you're not owed certain things like good grades or success in work, or, you know, just whatever goals that you want to achieve. Like there are things that you need to work for. And it kind of, I think it was really healthy thing for us to learn at a young age because it made it less disappointing.

you know? Yeah. When you didn't get exactly what you wanted. Um, and it also kind of put in the idea of like, okay, maybe it didn't work out this time or, yeah, I didn't pan out the way I wanted to, but like, I can strive for a goal and I can still learn from my mistakes and, and keep persevering. So it wasn't like the end of the world.

If something didn't work out the way you wanted it to the first time. Because you're not owed it, you know, it's something that you, you can work for and grow through that experience, even failure, you know, that's something they can learn and grow from something else that was kind of, it seems trivial, but I think it was really good for us was like, we, we, we had to clean up after ourselves from a pretty young age.

Like I remember mom saying, you know, if you don't put this toy away, like I'm throw, I'm throwing it away. Ouch. . Yeah. And so, you know, as like a six year old, you're like, that's brutal, but I think it really like all three of us are like pretty, I, I do think like cleanliness an organization is really important.

Like I think it's important to just having a healthy life is just things being more or less ordered. Mm-hmm I think it helps you have clarity and peace. and I think that the three of us kind of, I mean, my brother to a lesser degree, but I think the three of us, you know, understand that like people aren't waiting around to serve us.

Like you, you know, you have to do your part and especially take responsibility for your actions and also just practically, you know, take care of the space that you're in, you know, because it matters. Totally. No, that's so good. Those are beautiful lessons. And, uh, you're you're number two of three. Is that right?

Yes. Yeah. Second child is the best just in case anyone was wondering, so nice work there, Miranda job. Um, and then you have one step-sister as. Correct. Okay. No, no. I just wanted to make sure everyone kind of knew. Yeah. Okay. Such good lessons. And I, I just love that. I think when we're born into this world, we kind of think that we're the center of the universe and in real ways we are at least for our parents, but eventually yeah, you're right.

We gotta kind of shake that and yeah, love what you were saying about entitlement and just learning like that personal responsibility. I think that's so good. And my along the lines for me was. Hard work. I, I learned that from my dad, for sure. He's the still the most hardworking man that I know he worked so hard and he was in construction all of his life.

And he is very good at what he did, he, what he does. And so learned a lot about having a good work ethic and like getting after it. Like you have to put the work in, you're not, you know, along with what you said, you're not just gonna be handed things in life. You have to go and work at it and you're probably gonna fail.

You're probably gonna get knocked down from time to time, but you just have to keep going. And so that was a great lesson from him. And then also, you know, my, my dad, he, yeah, he has his own demons, his own issues. But one of the things that I saw a lot, at least with like other people, uh, he's just so selfless.

Like he was always ready to go above and beyond for, for other people, which, which I always admired. And that again, kind of taught us, like you said, to take. Eyes off yourself and look out to, to other people. Well, my mom from my mom, I think I learned, um, how to be more of a critical thinker. This might sound kind of interesting, but she, uh, was kind of ahead of her time in a lot of ways.

She's not like a, a hippie by any means, but, um, but she was more of like a natural person in a time where that was just not very popular. Like now it's much more popular, but, um, in her time, like conventional medicine, not that she's not against it she's actually a nurse, but, but she was just a critical thinker about some basic assumptions that were made in like medicine such as breastfeeding.

Like it was not popular at all. At that time to breastfeed your child, it was popular to give them a bottle, to give them formula, to give them like cow smoke or goat smoke or something. And she figured out through, you know, talking 'em with other people that actually. This is best for the child to, to, to breastfeed.

And so I really admire her for that. And so she kind of taught me to, um, yeah, just like question things, like think critically, don't just go with the flow. Sometimes you're gonna have to go against the tide and it won't be easy, but it will be worth it. And so I, I really appreciate that as well. And she did, she prioritized us kids.

Uh, so well, she really, uh, we were the most important thing in her life and, you know, for better or for worse, she really, really put us at the top of her priority list and worked hard to, uh, make sure that we, you know, were loved and have what we need. And so I really appreciate that. And a along with that too, I learned her from her, the ability to just sacrifice, like she's been through a lot just with the whole breakdown of the family.

Uh, both my parents have, but especially her and I have seen her just. Be selfless lately you touched on before. So those are definitely a few things that I, I wanna repeat in my own parenting. That's awesome. That's so beautiful. And I, it reminds me of my grandmother. I, I told you she passed away last summer, but she was kind of that way too, where she didn't want to get an epidural.

And that was like, unheard of like that all the doctors were like, you have to, you know, and now people are, you know, a lot, it's a lot more, there's a lot more variety. People kind of see the good in, in getting the epidural, but also like the downside, but things like that, like, she was just kind of ahead of her time.

Like again, with the health concerns, you know, she kind of was like, always ahead of the curve a little bit with that. So it's kind of cool. That your mom was like that too, or is like that too. Yeah. Okay. No, that's so interesting. And I think there, there is a lot of wisdom that can be, I think, just passed down from generation to generation and, um, it, it is great to see like medicine kind of catching up with some of that stuff.

And then also, like you said, it's, I think we've gone to a point where where're aware of different risks and alternatives, and it's not always such like a clear cut decision. It's something that you need to weigh out and make a decision on. So I don't want anyone listening to us to think like you and I are totally against like medical intervention or anything.

No. Like medicine exists for a reason. It's like such a good thing, but just mentioning those few things. I think it's important to, to have a critical mind and not just go with the flow and go with whatever's popular because as we've seen, I mean, if you've studied history, you, you know that, uh, often what was popular was very, very bad.

Like not good. For, for anyone and ended up bringing about a ton of ruin and disaster. Whether you look at ancient Rome or I don't know, different civilizations throughout, you know, the history of the world, you can see how you really needed to be countercultural. And that's not easy at times on the flip side, what would you say that you don't wanna repeat?

So some of the bad things that you observed about parenting that, uh, that you definitely don't wanna do in your own parenting dismissiveness, I think was a big one. Like I just remember, and to be fair, I'm a pretty sensitive person and was probably, you know, I, I do like have a tendency of overreacting sometimes or being dramatic and I'm sure as a kid that was even more the case.

But I do remember a lot of times when I, you know, turned to one of my parents cuz I was heard or upset or. Angry, you know, there was a lot of either like you need to just deal with it or just a lack of empathy, I guess. And I think it's not, it wasn't malicious, obviously. I think it's just that they're different people and that it was just not understanding where I was coming from.

And I've found, I have seen myself fall into this, um, as an adult being impatient with other people when they're suffering, because I'm like, no, that's not a big deal. Or like you're X, Y, Z, instead of being receptive and empathizing with the other person. Cause regardless of whether, you know, it's merited or not what the person is asking for, like there's a bid there, which is for attention, for empathy, for love.

And I don't think denying them of that, you know, is ever the right, the right thing to do. And that doesn't mean. Not saying something that's not true or like coddling, but I do think there is a moment of, you know, you have to be there for them emotionally. And I think that that was something that my parents kind of had a hard time with just because of personality differences.

Totally. And then the other thing is, you know, our faith, we did go to church and, you know, I think my mom was pretty active, but I wish I had seen my dad take more of an active role in our prayer life and to kind of pray with us as a family. I think would've been really good. And, um, would've kind of instilled those values earlier on, in a deeper way.

So that's something that I wish I had seen my parents do was like pray together or, you know, just because my, my faith is a big part of my life and I, I wish it had. I had seen that modeled earlier on mm-hmm so that's kind of something that I'm hoping my kids will, will have the opportunity to see. Yeah, no, that's really insightful.

And I think it's helpful to, you know, identify those things and just be conscious of it and make a plan to do the opposite. And a lot of the things you said resonate with me, like my dad, especially was pretty emotionally distant and, uh, I think a big part of the reason for that was because he was just dealing with a lot of his own hurt and brokenness in life, not to make an excuse for it, but just to kind of understand it a little bit more.

And so I, I certainly can relate with that. I think, I dunno if this is helpful for people, but I think our parents' generation, uh, typically I think most, most of our parents' generation, maybe people listening, um, don't have like the parents in that same generation, but it's good to know that a lot of them were raised by like the world war II.

Generation like some of them, you know, great depression generation and man, they, those people just had to be very tough. It was very, very hard times. And so I think they, in a way maybe were better at the hard virtues and were maybe better at the soft virtues, like empathy, like you mentioned. And so, uh, I think it's good to keep that in mind.

Um, you know, obviously we wanna have both the, the hard virtues and the soft virtues and, uh, and by hard virtues, I mean, things like courage and prudence, like making good judgements and things like that. I, yeah, there's definitely it wasn't perfect, but they kind of just had that. Toughness because of what they've been through.

Like my grandfather, he fought in world war II for Italy under mu. And so, you know, he fought alongside the Nazis at one point and then the Nazis turned on the Italians and they took him all prisoners. And so like, I can't imagine being through that experience. And so, yeah. Was he a little bit rougher, rough around the edges?

He was, but he was like a very loving man at the same time, but it just makes sense, given what he's been through that he's maybe a little bit callous and again, not such a bad thing, but I think there is a balance there. And I, I think that's where we're seeing a lot more. Now we have a better understanding of parenting and people understand like the value of empathy.

I know Bernie brown talks about it all the time. And so I think it is really valuable, but some other things just from that I observed from my parents too, is my, my dad saw his role as basically just the provider. It's like, if I put food on the table, if I make money, keep the roof over the head. Like, that's my job.

I'm done check. And, you know, there's so much more to parenting than that, but that was one thing that I don't wanna repeat at all. You know, I wanna be present in my kids' lives and make sure that I'm just connecting with them on a, on a deep level. Another thing too, that I saw from my dad is that there was so much brokenness that, uh, he had still to deal with that it was such a distraction for him.

And so, uh, yeah, I wanna, that's partly why I've been, you know, so motivated to just work on myself and heal and yeah. Just continue to grow because I think, uh, that's just so important that has such a good foundation to being able to love and to look beyond your own pain. And, uh, like, like you said, I, I really wish that my dad would've been, uh, more involved in like our faith life and talking about important things.

Like we, even to this day, like I love my dad to death, but. Even to this day, like a lot of our conversations, aren't very deep. It's just, they're more surface level. They talk like he is good at what he does at work. So a lot of our conversations are about work and he finds, you know, a lot of value in that.

Um, as a, you know, provider or at least someone who's being productive. And so I definitely wanna make sure that I'm having those deep conversations. I think it's really important. And then just a couple other things from my dad, I saw, you know, his anger. I think men deal with this a lot, but women do too.

Just anger get the best of us. And, um, that's something that I'm, you know, of course working on myself is just, it's okay to feel anger. It's good to feel anger, but it's important that we keep it in check. And, um, another thing too, just saw how my parents, um, especially my dad. Kind of looked up to people who had a lot of things, uh, not that it's wrong to have money and to, you know, be successful at such a good thing in a lot of ways, but it just depends on how you use it.

And, um, he, I know kind of admired people like that. So basically he had this materialistic worldview where he thought, you know, the more things you have, the more money you have, the better that life will be the happier that you'll be. And I think our generation sees that that's just a really empty promise that doesn't work.

And so that's something I wanna make sure that, um, you know, I don't pass on my kids either. So lots there. Um, on my mom's side, I would say I'm just my example from her. We've had this debate recently, but, uh, I've literally talked to my mom about this, uh, where, you know, what do you put first, your kids or your spouse.

And she put her kids first. And I have no doubt that that played a role in the breakdown of the marriage. You know, I'm not plays in blame in her, but I'm just saying that that certainly had some sort of a role in it. And, uh, she still believes that that was the right call. And obviously there's a balance there.

You can't like completely neglect your kids to put your marriage first, but I know you and I both believe that, you know, the marriage first and, and that's actually really good for the kids. If you. Keep that as the priority, I've also seen her just tendency to control. And I, I think that comes from a place of being hurt, you know, going through a lot and even in her own life.

And I remember growing up, Brenda, I, yeah, she would like ask us to do certain things and, and I've had these conversations with her. So I'm not like gossiping about her. You know, she would tell us to do certain things and then maybe like spell out in, in like very detailed instructions, like how to do every piece of it, or, you know, even like take over once we started doing something and it just basically underneath, it was just this desire for control and I hated it.

I hated it. And, uh, I think we all struggle with control, especially those of us who've been through something traumatic. It was something where I remember joking with her once she was like, uh, I had recently started driving and I, I had been driving, I think for like a year or two, so that wasn't like super recent.

And, um, she was like asking me to, uh, go get gas at this particular gas station. And she was like, going through all this detail, like how to get there and all sorts of things. I'm like, mom, do you wanna just come like pump the gas for me as well? and so I, you know, I, we we've, we've tried over the years, like be like, mom, like you, you raised good kids.

Like we're capable of doing things, but I think that was always a struggle for her. Just that control. Yeah. And then just other things too, probably could keep going. Just the, uh, slow decision making. And I don't know if this is something that is a trend in people come from broken families, but I know, uh, my family is not very good at making quick decisions.

it like takes a long time and that's something I've tried to like work against like analysis paralysis, where I I've seen my mom not wanna make decisions because she's afraid of making the wrong choice, the wrong call. And that just, that, that impacts you as a kid that impacts you, uh, through life, especially if that's like what you're taught to like very, very carefully weigh every little decision, um, even when they don't really deserve that much time and attention.

So that, that was certainly something that, that I don't wanna repeat then lastly, I would say, uh, just how, you know, I observed things in my parents' marriage, uh, not exactly a parenting item, but it certainly affected us kids how they handled conflict. How, you know, they would argue, and it wasn't always like this, but a lot of times, uh, the majority of times there was an argument, it would get heated, it would get loud.

And then one, or both parents would just like go their separate ways and we never saw any sort of resolution. And so one of the things I learned from one of my mentors, who's a teacher at my college at FCAN university. Um, he was just explaining the importance of, if you have conflict in front of your kids, make sure you, you resolve it in front of your kids.

It's really, really, really, really, really important to do that. And we just didn't see that growing up. So say all that again, not to demonize my parents, but to say, okay, these were the shortcomings. These are things that I saw that I didn't like. And I wanna do them differently in, in my own parent. I wanna switch gears and talk about that, uh, episode that we mentioned.

So Adam Young has, uh, is a counselor out here in Colorado. He has the podcast called, uh, the place we find ourselves. Awesome, awesome podcast. I love it. I recommend it. And in episode two of that podcast, he, uh, teaches the six core needs. Relational needs that kids, uh, need their parents to fill. And the episode is titled why you are family of origin impacts your life more than anything else, profound and, and so true.

And so I, I wanna dive into that. We're just gonna talk about some of the things he talks about in the episode and, and just give some, uh, yeah. Commentary insight into what we experienced growing up and what we wanna do moving forward, uh, with our own kids. And when, when we talk about this episode, it's good to keep in mind that this stuff applies not just to like little infants and babies and like young children, but as you grow up, you know, as a child, as a teenager, even into your, you know, young adult years, like this stuff applies as well.

So you can kind of think of that as we kind of go through these things. But one of the things he starts in this in episode two of his podcast, he says that we all kind of have a hard time. Even if you come from a good family, we all have a hard time taking an honest look at how our parents treated us.

And he says that that's kind of instructive that that's, um, an interesting thing to, to keep in mind. And what he says though, is. A child needs their parents to get it right about 50% of the time, which I think, again, it's very consulting. It's good that you don't need to be perfect, but, but that's really the sign of like a good enough parent.

And so he lays out in this episode that the six needs that, uh, children have that, that they need their parents to fill. And the first thing he talks about is attunement, attunement. It's kind of this odd word. And, uh, what it basically means is your parent's ability to, um, read your emotional state. Okay.

Your ability to, to read your emotional state, like what's going on inside of you inside your heart, inside your mind, inside your body, your thoughts, your feelings. It doesn't mean you're a mind reader, but, um, just having an awareness and, uh, the core of attunement he says is not reading right? Every single time, not looking at your child and immediately knowing what they're experiencing, what they're feeling, what they're thinking and knowing like what they need, but really just recognizing when your child is feeling maybe unheard or, or unseen, and then pressing in to try to understand what's happening with the child.

And he says that it's in this process of attunement or I'm sorry of misattunement. And then reattunement that you come to feel safe with your parents as a child, that, that you come to feel that you can trust them, that they're there for you. And he says, one of the huge barriers to this, I'll just read this quote.

He said, A parent that is distracted by their own needs. Their own wants their own emotions, their own personal pain can't be attuned to their child's needs. And that goes right along with some of the things that Miranda. And I said before, and so. It makes sense. Miranda, you know, given the, what he said here that, um, divorce is so harmful to children.

And because in most cases, parents are kind of, you know, going to war with each other and they're just so focused on their own stuff, their own paying their own needs, that they tend to neglect the needs of. You know, their children and the people around them. So just reflecting on this in my own life, you know, I think my mom, uh, when we were kids did a really good job of being there for us of trying to do this whole attunement thing that he talks about.

But when the separation happened, uh, she would just so overwhelmed. She had to now fill her role as a mother, and then also fill the dad role of providing and, and doing all that at, you know, at that time in my family, at least. And so it just was so consuming for her that she wasn't able to be there for us to recognize like what was going on inside of us.

Cause a lot of us were, we were really hurting and when we ended up acting on in all sorts of ways, but she just was overwhelmed. Couldn't be there for us. Like one of the things for me I know was I was just hanging around with like really bad friends, like friends who weren't good for me. And she didn't really recognize.

Yeah, I don't blame her for it. I, I do wish, you know, something was done sooner, but that, that was one thing. And then for my dad, when it came to attunement, I just recognized that, um, this is something he really struggled with. Like I mentioned before, he was just very, I think, overwhelmed with a lot of his own demons and brokenness, and it was just hard for him to focus on us.

And I don't wanna say he did this horribly cuz I'm sure, you know, he did it, um, better than maybe I remember, but um, I know this was a particular, uh, struggle for him that this whole attunement thing, but what about you Miranda? Yeah, it is hard. And I think the divorce like D just throws everything for loop and you know, a caveat of this by saying that a like I'm not, I don't have a great memory of early childhood.

And so a lot of what I remember is after is like either during or after the divorce. So I think that, you know, whatever I have to say is unfortunately going to be a little skewed and especially because I think the negative sometimes. Ends up sticking a lot more than the positive. Totally. So, but yeah, I think similar to what you're saying, you know, mom was better at yeah.

Knowing what I was feeling, what I was thinking, I think, yeah, with the separation, she also was just kind of really caught up in, in what she was going through. And I think that at that point there was, I guess, a misattunement and I think that it led to a lot of issues and I definitely similar to what you, your experience was, you know, kind of started going down paths that I wish I hadn't, and that I wish a parent had been there to, to say, you know, this isn't good, this isn't healthy.

Mm-hmm but yeah, I do think mom was a little bit more aware. She was more in tune to what was going on with me on a daily basis. Dad, He's just more oblivious in general, you know, but on top of that, the fact that we didn't live together after separation, like exacerbated that so much more. So he was a lot more oblivious except on occasions when I was like, it was extremely vocal.

So, but that being said, I'm not someone who's, you know, super great at hiding my emotions anyway. So I do think they probably both picked up on more than I'm giving them credit for. But I do think that the divorce led to a break in attunement, which I think is just kind of almost inevitable, you know?

Yeah. And I think it's a, at the core of why there's so many problems with it and. That makes a ton of sense. And the, the second thing that Adam Young says is, um, that the, uh, the next need, the second need is, uh, responsiveness. We have, we need our parents to basically take action based on what they see.

And, and that's what responsiveness is, is just taking action. As a result of the attunement of, of like recognizing the emotional state of, of the child and every child, he says needs their parent to be responsive when that child feels distressed or mad or sad or afraid anything. And the, the parent in that case needs to offer comfort care kindness.

Um, and hopefully, you know, if there was a break in the relationship they wanna bring reconnection. And one of the things he says in the episode, which was kind of striking for me, he said, uh, a lot of us believe that our parents weren't attuned to us. They didn't even recognize what we were thinking and feeling because if they did, then that meant that they didn't care enough to do anything about it.

And, and that's hard. It's hard to swallow if, if that was the case. And so looking back kind of on my own childhood, um, my mom was definitely good kind of again, at being responsive, but again, the divorce pulled her away from her ability to do that. And she just had to deal with her own pain and, and, um, you know, her own issues.

And I think my dad struggled with this for, for a long time. And like I mentioned with my mom, the divorce made it worse as well. Um, so I'm curious on the responsiveness need. Um, how did you experience this? Yeah, I, I definitely think that that was a, that was a hard one. I think mom, because, you know, probably because of what she was going through, she was kind of like emotionally tapped out.

So I think sometimes, you know, she was attuned, she did see my frustration or anger or, or hurt or whatever. but her response was often kind of dismissive. I think she just going through something like that, like you just kind of lose the capacity to really be open to another person, another person suffering mm-hmm , um, especially when it seemed maybe trivial, you know, compared to what you're going through.

So I think, you know, that was hard. And then I think dad, he wasn't dismissive, uh, in the same sense. Like he wa he didn't get angry or kind of, he didn't say like, oh, you just need to, you know, get over it kind of thing. I, and I, and I think this is just him not knowing how to, how to respond, but a lot of times he would laugh.

Like he would, yeah. Like that was his gut response was just to make light of it. And it, again, like it wasn't malicious, it wasn't him being mean or anything like that. It was just, I think that was just like, he didn't understand. And so. That his response was, was to find humor in it, but it's unfortunate.

But again, it wasn't like a malicious thing, but I do think it was kind of hurtful. And so that's something else that, you know, I have to take into account. Like even if your three year old is crying because you know, they can't find their Teddy wear and you're like, you know, this is not a big deal. You know, it is a big deal to them and you have to be able to step into their shoes as hard as that can be sometimes and try to respond.

Appropriately like Adam Young talks about. Yeah. And then that brings us to the next need, which he says you needed your parents to engage. So the next need is engagement. And this is a little bit different than responsiveness. Responsiveness is basically their, uh, reaction or response to the attunement.

Engagement's a little bit more proactive. It's beyond a reaction beyond a response, at least based on my understanding of it. Uh, it's really, yeah. This proactive pursuit, this intention to, to genuinely know you as a child, deeply on a heart level. And in that episode, he quotes, uh, a neuroscientist Kirk Thompson, uh, who said each one of us comes into this world, looking for someone, looking for us.

It's profound. And, uh, he, Adam goes on to say that the results, uh, of a lack of engagement is feeling abandoned as abandonment. And he says the, you know, that the core of abandonment is not physical abandonment, but rather, uh, a lack of attunement, a lack of responsiveness and a lack of engagement from your parents.

And again, he quotes, uh, Kirk Thompson, who, who said, we can grow up in homes in which the food finds the table. The money finds the college funds and the family even finds the church each Sunday. But somehow our hearts remain undiscovered by the two people. We most need to know us, our parents. So again, looking at this, um, there, there's just a huge difference in both of my parents before the divorce and after the divorce, um, especially with my mom just being, you know, emotionally tapped out, like you said, and, uh, with my dad, I.

Always admired him. Uh, especially growing up, he was just like my hero and I always wanted more from him. I always wanted, you know, more approval. I wanted more attention, more time from him. I couldn't necessarily put my finger in it when I was a kid, but looking back and, uh, I remember he coached my older brother, Anthony in, uh, baseball.

So he was his baseball coach when he was like in middle school. And that was like a year or two away for me. When he could like coach me and remember me just being so excited, like my, I was so excited. I was just thrilled. We loved baseball growing up, played for years and yeah, I just could not wait for my dad to be my coach.

And then my parents separated and that never happened. And that was just devastating for me. It was really hard to just kind of miss out in that whole experience. And I know everyone listening I'm sure has experiences like that as well, that were just kind of taken from you, Rob from you. And so, yeah, I really did want my dad, especially to engage with me and, and that certainly was a whole that yeah, just wasn't filled, unfortunately.

Yeah, that is really hard. I, I think my, you know, my dad was always good, you know, even after the separation, he, he would call pretty much every day and he always, you know, asked me about my day and it was always very surface level. And I think that, you know, things with my dad have always been surface level for.

Always but most of the time, but he did, you know, he has pursued me in the sense that, you know, a lot of people don't hear from, from their parents every week, even mm-hmm , you know? And so he, he has been really consistent about that. I do remember even after the divorce, confiding and dad about things that were going on at school and, you know, drama and all that stuff, he was very receptive and, you know, definitely emphasized, you know, you can always talk to me about this kind of thing.

And unfortunately, I think as I got older, I just got more guarded around him. So I kind of, I think that was lost to a degree. And I think then he just didn't know how to, how to pursue, but he has always been really good about checking in and my mom, you know, she. , she was always very encouraging and I, I played violin for a long time and she was always very like supportive and encouraging of that and of my writing.

Um, so I definitely felt like seen and yeah, just that she really cared about, about me because of, of how much she encouraged me with those things that she knew I cared about. So I think that that was really good. I think, you know, on an emotional level, that's probably where, you know, there was a lack from both of them.

And again, I think part of it was just like what you were saying before of their generation and how they were raised. Um, and then I think part of it too, was. As we've been saying, like the divorce and what they've been going through and yeah. Being, being emotionally tapped out. So, so I do think there was good there.

Um, and I think that there was, you know, some struggles as well. Sure. No, that makes sense. Yeah. The next need is you needed your parents to regulate your affect and affect is again, kind of this funny word, but basically affect means your internal, emotional state. That felt sense of what's happening inside of you.

And that's what Adam Young explains that. And he says that there's kind of a range of feelings that we experience everything from, you know, numb and shut down to terrified and panicked kind of the heightened side of the spectrum. And so when you're stressed out, he says your affect is dysregulated.

That's how psychologists talk about it. And as children, we had very little ability to regulate our. To kind of recognize what was happening inside of us and do something about it. And infants, especially have zero ability to do that. They're completely reliant on their mother on their father. And so it's so important when we were children that if, um, we were hungry and tired or afraid that we had our parents there to soothe us, to comfort us, he says, and you know, even if we were getting numb or kind shut down, we needed someone there to stimulate us to prevent us from kind of going numb.

And yeah, he says, Adam Young says that to be effective at regulating your affect a parent needs to do basically all of the prior three things that we talked about, uh, attunement, responsiveness, and engagement. And by watching them do that for us, especially as young children, we learn to do it for ourselves.

And so, um, if that didn't happen, if your affect was not regulated, uh, then you would've been forced to do it yourself. If your parent didn't do it for you. And like I mentioned, If you're young, especially, uh, you don't have the ability to do that, or maybe you're going through something traumatic where there's a lot of overwhelming emotions.

You really need someone to walk through you with that who has more capacity to deal with those difficult things in your life. And if that didn't happen, then it leaves a lot of damage. And again, go into my own story. I, I felt this so much after the separation emotionally inside edge, it was just a mess and I didn't know how to deal with it like Miranda.

I'm sure you can relate. I was angry. I was depressed. I was anxious and I just found no comfort or relief in my parents, to be honest. And again, they were just so consumed, uh, with what was going on in their own lives that I ended up looking for comfort elsewhere, just trying to regulate, you know, my own affect, just deal with my own emotions by, you know, looking up porn.

By, you know, kind of diving into sports and just kind of escaping into, you know, just different things in my life. And so definitely, definitely had struggles there. And I think in some ways I still do, I'm made a lot of progress with this, but, um, it is, it's such a real need, isn't it? Yeah, no, it totally is.

And I think with, with my mom, a lot of times when I was angry and I expressed that, um, which I think she saw a lot more of that than my dad did after the separation. She, her response was to also get angry and I get it, you know, I think I, you know, I can kind of understand why that would be her response.

And I probably said some hurtful things. I mean, not probably, I, I, I think I do remember saying things that were, that were mean or hurtful, but like you said, you need someone when you're young to kind of help you learn how to. Manage your anger. And I think for me, you know, the response I got was like, I don't want this, you know, I don't wanna see this.

This is, this is wrong. I think dad was more when, you know, the few times that I did express strong emotions around him, he was more common wanting to help. Um, but I think the challenge has been feeling comfortable expressing those around him. And then there have been, like I said, a few times where he, he just didn't didn't respond well, you know, kind of made light of it.

And I think that kind of has stopped me from continuing to, yeah. To be open with open and honest with him. So I, from that, I think I kind of learned to suppress, especially when I was just hurting and to hide what I was feeling or at the very least not to talk about it. And I've seen that. Come to fruition a lot in my marriage.

And before that, when we, my husband and I were dating, just not wanting to talk about what I was feeling and that being really frustrating for him. He can tell something's wrong. He can tell, tell I'm upset, but I, I feel like I can't open up to him about it. Wow. That's profound. So yeah, you basically just learn that response to like regulate your affect and that carried into your own marriage and, and it makes so much sense.

And that brings us to the next need. Adam Young says that you needed your parents to be strong enough to handle. Negative emotions. And so he asked the question, you know, how did your parents react to your negative emotions? Like anger, sadness, fear, like, what did they do? And Miranda, you just talked about that.

He says that, you know, we needed them to like, we needed to be free. To express those negative emotions as children, knowing that we would be responded to in a positive way. And, and he says that you needed to know your emotions were accepted and allowed. And even to the point where you feel free to say, like I hit you or you're mean, or something kind of shocking and extreme without getting scolded or shamed or told that.

Know that wasn't appropriate. And this is kind of shocking to hear. I think a lot of parents struggle with this one because especially parents who wanna raise, I think this is almost everyone. Like you wanna raise good kids and having hearing them say these strong things, because they feel strongly about something can be really hard.

But I experienced that as well in my own family where, when I felt something strongly, I, especially on my dad's side, it was kind of the opposite with my dad. He would react kind of with the, a stronger emotion. Like if I felt angry, he would get even angrier. And so then I learned also to suppress and with my mom too, there was just kind of this sense that, okay, anger is bad because we've, you know, experienced, uh, in different ways.

People getting really angry and it not having a good, um, ending and. One of the things Adam Young said is that, uh, your child should feel free to express rage at you. So this kind of goes back to what you said before Miranda with like feeling wrath yet your, your child should feel free to express that rage at you.

And, um, one of the problems that he points at when it comes to this need, um, he says that perhaps your family was too fragile to bear the weight of your unedited soul. And, and this one really, really struck me well. And I think one of the things I saw, especially in my dad was, um, yeah, because he struggled with his own anger.

I tended to follow suit and then feel that, oh, I can't express anger to him because that would just evoke a greater anger. That would just not end well, well, I mean, I did, yeah. I kind of addressed that before, but I did, I was shocked when he kind of talked about, you know, the, the two stories of his little kids of how they express.

Their anger towards him. And, um, it's hard to imagine. Like I do think that that's heartbreaking, you know, as a parent, like, or, or it's just infuriating, you know, I'm glad he said that because I don't think, I would've thought that was the appropriate response. Cuz my thought would've been, you know, you need to be respectful.

You need to just treat your parents, you know, with respect. And so, and not to say that they shouldn't, but you know, he is saying, you know, we tell, we need to allow room. We need to allow them the space to experience breath, and then to teach them how to, how to handle it. But it was kind of, it did catch me off guard when, when he talked about, you know, like it's okay for them to.

To express that and it's okay for them to almost like, let it out, you know, on you, um, whatever they're experiencing and it's not something to me, it didn't seem something that was very intuitive and maybe that's just cuz of my own experience, but I was definitely, yeah, just kind of taken aback a little bit me as well.

Yeah. And, um, Yeah. Just, I think like you were saying just the results. If we don't feel that freedom is suppression and that's always gonna come out in some other way. And so I think it's, it's better to, like you said, to be there with your kids in those difficult emotions and teach them how to handle them and what to do, what action to take as a result of what they feel as opposed to just like shoving it away.

And then they're just gonna, like, we've been saying, they're gonna have to deal with it on their own. And, and that brings us to the last point, which is you needed your parents to, um, yeah. Have a willingness to repair when there was a disconnect when there was disconnection, uh, especially when they hurt you.

He says, and, and, uh, Adam Young says, this is a direct quote. He said, when your parents hurt you, did they own and rectify, rectify the harm they did. A healthy, trusting attachment is not built on the absence of failure. All parents fail many, many times a healthy relationship is not built on the absence of failure, but on the willingness of the parent to own and rectify the failures.

When they do occur. And so he just, again, emphasizes that no parent gets it right. A hundred percent of the time, even the best parents, like you pointed out before Miranda. And he says, that's, that's no big deal. What really matters is that when there is a break in their relationship, when there is an issue, a misattunement, uh, that there is reattunement that we connect again, that there's re-engagement that things are made, right?

There's um, an apology, there's a conversation, something to reconnect, to bring comfort into the relationship. And, uh, growing up, my mom was pretty good at this actually at, at the reconnecting, she was, you know, willing to apologize, even if at times it was hard, uh, with my dad, this was a struggle. And I think a lot of men struggle with this because we tend to have these big egos.

I, you know, was thinking and preparing for this show. I was like trying to remember a time where he apologized for something, especially like that was bigger. And I, I struggled with that. And so I, I think he, you know, had a hard time admitting when he was at fault. And again, I think a lot of parents have this issue, especially fathers, maybe feeling like we can't show weakness or we're expected to get everything right.

And so we don't admit when we're wrong. And that was really damaging and inhibited caused us not to have that reconnection because there was just this whole line of things that were never addressed, that we were just like carrying around with us. So it's certainly it's this maybe is the most important of them all to, um, repair when there is, uh, that disconnect.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think for me, it was a little bit flipped. I mean, I had a lot more conflict with mom because. You know, I was with her more. Um, and she, she just wouldn't apologize. Um, we always had to be the ones to seek her out after a conflict. And I think that that's something that led me and my siblings to be extremely conflict diverse, cuz we were afraid of her anger and we were afraid of not, you know, getting the love back, you know?

And so yeah, I think that was hard. And then with dad, it was just, we, we really rarely fought because again, like I just, I didn't feel that closeness with him. So it was more like if it was fighting, it was more like I'm annoyed, you know? So it wasn't really a true fight that that required like a, an apology or something like that.

And yeah, so I, I don't, I don't think I really had an experience. I think the one time, you know, where. I felt like an apology was owed was, you know, when he, we had a conversation about the fact that he left, you know, left the family, but also left the country like right after the divorce and how that really affected me.

And, you know, for him, he couldn't see where he had done wrong. He just said, you know, I did what I had to do and it wasn't about you, you know, but I think I really needed a tea here, you know, I'm sorry that you felt abandoned. And I think it's just like a lack of understanding. So I do think that that repairing disconnect was a hard one for us.

Absolutely. So just to summarize everything, uh, the first need is attunement next responsiveness, third engagement. Fourth, uh, regulate your affect fifth strong enough to handle negative emotions and then six, uh, your parents' willingness to repair when there was disconnection. And so a lot to talk about here, but yeah.

How do we do this right. Miranda? What, what are we gonna do with our own kids in the future? Uh, a few thoughts on my end. Like some things I wanna do I think, to, to do this stuff right. To fill those six needs the right way, um, is just being really intentional about it. Just focusing on it, having that desire and keeping that front of mind.

Uh, I think also curiosity is needed, especially when it comes to atunement like paying attention to, you know, just different shifts and moods or things that are happening with your children and reading their faces and asking good questions and then digging deeper when something is kind of unclear.

You're not quite sure what's going on. And then I think another thing too is just prioritizing time with your children and just. Being a good parent and just understanding that, yeah, you can go work for 80 hours a week and make a ton of money, but you're gonna leave your children bankrupt, emotionally, if you are not there for them, you're not emotionally engaging with them.

So I think one of the things I think so hard for all of us, but especially for parents, is just letting go of the less important things because being a parent, uh, so I'm told I'm not one yet. Well, I am one now, but I don't have our baby here. It it's so important to make sure that we're spending lots of time, uh, with, with our kids.

And so those are a few things. I think a growth mindset's really important as well. Just understanding that we can get better. We can change, we can grow. We're not stuck. And, uh, and then, like we mentioned at a few points, like healing our own brokenness so that we are not just passing that on to our kids are so consumed by it that we're damaging them or neglecting them.

And, uh, you know, having a plan too, with our kids, like I've heard some parents do individual date nights with their kids. Uh, we had, uh, Justin bad on this show who, uh, you know, runs daddy Saturday. So he spends like every Saturday with his kids, he spent over, I think it's 14,000 hours with his kids, which was just amazing, you know, when it comes to the negative emotions thing, I think it's so important to like tell your kids, this is one of the things I wanna really clearly communicate to my kids is that it's okay to have those negative emotions to feel them.

They're actually, they're there for a reason and we need to teach them that and teach them, uh, how to handle those well, and, and don't shame them when they feel them. There's nothing wrong with them. And then of course, you know, modeling, uh, in your marriage, like how to do all these things right between you and your spouse, like having that attunement with your spouse.

Obviously it's not the same as like a parent-child relationship, but just recognizing things. Healing the relationship, if something goes wrong and along with that is having the, uh, humility to admit when you're wrong and to make that relationship. Right. And, um, yeah, just to expect there to be breaks in the relationship, but then always be working toward it.

So, yeah, just in closing Miranda, what were some final thoughts that you would give to everyone, um, on how to do this? Right. And how you wanna do that right. In your own parenting. Yeah. I mean, I definitely think that everything you said is very true and I think it'll be very helpful. Um, I, I had present moment awareness kind of like what you said about paying attention.

Um, just trying to, to yeah. Be present, um, which I think can be hard, cuz like you said, we get distracted by a whole lot of things, but I think trying as much as possible to, to just be in the moment with your kids. I also think self care is important. Like I, I do. I do think it, you know, obviously you have to put your, your kids first, you know, they, they can't take, especially when they're really young, like they can't take care of themselves.

So you have to, you have to make sure that their needs are being met. But I do think that it's not an excuse to like stop taking care of yourself spiritually, physically, emotionally, you know? So if you, if there's some wounds you need to work on like, make time for therapy or, or journaling or, or something like that.

If, if you are feeling, you know, really tired, like, okay, like how can you get more sleep? Like how, you know, how can you make sure that you're, you're being the best parent that you can be? And a lot of that is just making sure that you are taken care of, like you're, you're taking care of yourself. You know, if, if you like setting aside time for prayer, just time to, you know, better yourself as a person.

I think that's really important. And. Yeah. If you have wounds, like you said, like struggles, which we all do taking the time to, to work through those. And if you're not, if you don't know where to start, if you're overwhelmed, like asking for help. Um, I think empathizing is really important, um, learning that's skill, which it can be learned, you know, if, if we're not there yet, that's okay.

But, um, more and more trying to step into the experience of other people and especially of our kids. I think, you know, trying not to take things personally, especially when your kids having a bad day, when there is a temper tantrum, when, you know, I think it sometimes does feel really personal mm-hmm . And so it's like, okay, like this isn't necessarily about me, you know, something's going on in their world.

That's causing them to be unhappy and trying to help them through that instead of getting defensive or upset because. You feel like they're making your life more difficult, having that space between the reaction and the response? I think those are, those are some things. And just remembering, like you have to set the example for how to handle emotion.

So like if you fly off the handle, when things don't go well, that's very likely that your kids are gonna learn to do that too. I think there is gonna be conflict. There is going to be hurt. And, you know, kind of like we, we were talking about with reconciliation, just always making sure that the kid knows that they're loved, you know, even when you're upset, even when you're disappointed, you know, I love you.

Even if it's, it's kind of tense right now, I love you. And that, you know, having the humility to, to, to apologize when, when you do mess up, because we all do and we all will. Yeah. I think those are some things. That could help with these six things that Adam Young talks about. So good Miranda, thanks for your insight.

Thanks for your time. I hope this has been helpful to all of you listening and definitely recommend listening to episode two of the place we find ourselves. If you wanna reflect on this more about how you, um, you know, have these needs filled, or maybe not filled by your parents growing up and what you can do in the future, uh, when it comes time for you to become a parent.

So Miranda, thank you so much for your time. Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me.

Thanks so much for listening. Definitely a long episode, but I hope it was valuable for you. My question for you to reflect on is what lessons did you learn from your parents that you wanna repeat with your own kids one day? And which ones do you not wanna repeat? Think about that. Give us some thought, write them down.

Talk to your husband or wife about 'em. If you're married or if you're engaged or dating someone, talk to your significant other. It's really, really good to have these conversations now so that we can bring about those changes that we wanna enact with our own kids. If ReSTOR has helped you in any way, we'd love to hear about it, whether this podcast has been helpful or maybe a blog article, or really anything that we do, if it's been helpful for you, we wanna hear about it.

And some of the benefits from telling us how we've helped you is it gives us insight into what is most valuable for you. So we can double down on that and do more of it. It also helps us to set strategy for the future so we can keep serving you. And it shows other people who maybe aren't aware of our work, how effective it can be, which may convince them to, to use our content and the tools that we offer.

And so if you wanna send your testimony of how restored has helped you just go to restored ministry.com/testimony, again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/testimony. Then just answer the questions in that form about how restored has helped you. We'd really appreciate it by the way, this can be completely anonymous.

We don't have to put your name to it. It's totally your choice. So please share how restored has helped you today. A restored ministry. Dot com slash testimony. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 46. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful, please subscribe and share this podcast with someone you know, who really needs it.

Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#045: How to Become the Dad You Wish You Had | Justin Batt

It’s no secret that we’re facing a huge crisis of fatherlessness. So many fathers have physically or emotionally abandoned their children, largely because nobody ever showed them how to be a great dad. This problem is at the root of so many issues in our world. So, what’s the solution?

In this episode, Justin Batt from Daddy Saturday offers advice and encouragement to current or future dads on how to raise good kids who become great adults. We discuss:

• How do we fix the fatherlessness crisis?

• Practical advice on how to become a great dad from a father who’s spent 14,000 hours and 500 intentional Saturdays with his kids

• Encouragement for any men out there who feel like they don’t have what it takes to be a great father, especially because you didn’t receive it from your dad growing up

Buy the Book: Daddy Saturday

Ask Joey

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Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

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• Website: Daddy Saturday

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• Book: The DNA of Relationships

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

It's probably no surprise to you that we're facing a huge crisis of fatherlessness in our world where dads abandon their kids, either physically leaving or emotionally checking out. And as those of us who come from broken homes know this is extremely painful. It's extremely difficult. So many of us have experienced fathers who just left or at least emotionally checked out.

From our lives and not all of us have experienced that, right? Some of us have great fathers, even when our parents' marriage broke apart, but all of us can agree. This is a huge problem. And it's at the root of so many of the other problems that we see in our culture today. But there is a solution which we're gonna discuss in this episode.

And if you're not a dad, Keep listening. This is good stuff. It still applies to you, whether fatherhood's maybe two years away or 10 years away. And ladies listening right now, maybe you're married. Maybe you're not, but this is gonna be a great resource. Both this episode itself and my guests and his nonprofit for any men in your life who again, wanna become fathers and maybe they are fathers now.

So lots of good stuff in here for you as well. And what you're gonna get out of this episode, everyone is we're gonna talk about how serious. Is this crisis of fatherlessness and how do we fix it? You're gonna get practical advice on how to start becoming a great dad, perhaps even the, the father that you never had, that, that you wish you had from a dad who spent 14,000 hours and 500 intentional Saturdays.

With his kids and my guest gives encouragement to any of you men out there, especially who come from broken families, who, who feel like you just don't have what it takes to be a great dad. Like you're, you're not capable of doing that. So a lot of great content ahead. Keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Elli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 40. Before we dive into the episode, I wanna make sure you know, that you can submit a question for us to answer on the show, either answered by my guest or answered by me.

It's really exciting. We wanna hear directly from you here, the challenges that you're struggling with and the questions that you have when it comes to navigating the pain and the problems from your parents' divorce separation are broken marriage. And some of the benefits you can ask, anything that you want.

Like maybe you. Stuck in life right now. And you're not sure how to get unstuck and how to heal and, and move on with your life. Or maybe you're someone who loves or leads someone who comes from a broken family. And you're not sure, like how do you go about helping them? Whatever your question. We're gonna give you specific and practical answers right here on the show.

So if you wanna submit a question to us, just go to restored ministry. Dot com slash ask Joey again, restored ministry ministry, singular.com/ask Joey, just one word on that page. Just fill out the form, submit your question. And then as we're able, we'll answer your question on the show. Feel free to even pause this episode right now.

Go ask your question and then come back to finish the. Super thrilled that it have Justin bat on the show. Justin's an incredible man found out about him recently in his nonprofit daddy Saturday, which I'm gonna tell you about in a second, but Justin aims to disrupt fatherhood with intentionality by creating intentional fathers who raise good kids who become.

Great adults. And like I mentioned, he founded daddy Saturday in his own backyard with his four children. And it's grown into this national movement, engaging fathers across multiple channels, including YouTube, social media, the daddy Saturday book, uh, and Alexa skill, a podcast merchandise live events and a 5 0 1 C3 foundation through which Justin plans to impact 10 million fathers in the next.

10 years. It was incredible. In addition, Justin is a highly sought after healthcare consultant and a successful serial entrepreneur, as well as a TEDx and international public speaker, a multi published author and a regular guest on multiple. Podcast. And when he is not at work, Justin can be found helping his wife, Heather run her bridal enterprise and spending time with his four children and the family's bead doodle named weekend.

Super thrilled to have Justin on the show. Let's not wait any longer. Here's my interview with

Justin. Thanks so much for being here. A huge fan of your work. Hey, Joey. So good to be on with you as well. Thank you for having. Absolutely. You talk a lot about the crisis of fatherlessness that we're facing in our world, if you would, what do you mean by that? And how serious is this crisis? Well, when you look at most of the, we call 'em societal ills.

So most of the, the negative consequences that are impacting our society today, not just in America, but around the world, think of things like suicide, depression, anxiety, even some of the school shootings, teenage pregnancy. Divorced down the road. A lot of these issues that we have in our world are caused by fatherlessness.

When you think about human trafficking, which is a, an epidemic in and of itself today, I talked to a major leader in the space and I said, how many of the kids that you've rescued? The thousands of kids didn't have a father in the home. And he said a hundred percent. So even things like human trafficking are part of this and the fatherlessness epidemic.

Is because of two areas. One is the lack of a biological father living in the home. There's over 24 million kids in America today. They don't have a biological father living in the home and there's millions more that have a dad who's in the home, but he's physically present and emotionally absent.

That's another form of fatherlessness. And so through our organization, daddy, Saturday, we work to address both sides of that fatherlessness. And really help the dads who are in the home, be intentional and engaged, and also support those kids that don't have a father or father figure in their lives.

Incredible. This is such a massive pro uh, problem and project that you're taking on. So I'm, I'm really grateful for the work that you do. Um, let's get into this solution a little bit more to this big problem. What is this solution? And I know your work daddy Saturday is, is a big part of that solution. So tell us if you would a little bit about.

Well, I think you gotta look at both sides of that fatherless in his coin. And if you look at the fathers who are in the home, a big part of that is, you know, as dads, I've got four kids, I've been a dad now for 13 years. And when we had our first daughter, I didn't know anything about fatherhood. I learned fatherhood from my father and he wasn't a perfect dad.

I took the example that he had said and tried to apply some of those things and do a few things better in my own life. And I read some books and, you know, watched some YouTube videos. And that was my role of trying to figure out. What fatherhood was about. I'm also, I'm, I'm a man of faith. I'm a Christian.

So I, I went to the Bible and looked for some examples there. And, you know, there's just not a lot of fatherhood, frankly. That's out there. And most of the stuff was also from PhDs and was on the, the topic of more theology or theory around fatherhood. There wasn't a lot of practical advice on being a dad.

And so I figured it out like most dads do and stumbled process that first claims wanna be a good dad. They wanna be engaged. but they have a challenge. And that challenge is the fact that once they start to, to get into it and they have a few issues or stumbling blocks, then they kind of just go dark and they say, I, I don't know what I'm doing.

I don't know how to figure this thing out. I'm, I'm insecure. I'm feeling inadequate, I'm ill equipped. And so they start to shut down as a dad. And I think that the role and the goal of solving that is by helping fathers, reengage and reign. Their their role in their calling to be an intentional and engaged dad.

And that we're intentionality is really the core of our platform and how we help those dads, how I've helped myself, uh, engage my kids, creating epic moments and epic memories and building a legacy and helping them identify their calling. So they become good kids that become great adults. That's one side of that.

The other side is the child who doesn't have a father or father figure in their. And to address that issue. We need to equip them with education and help them understand and, and gain knowledge and access to knowledge that a father, father figure would provide for them. We also need to allow them to bump up against and aside really strong and great men who can show them what, what true masculinity is and what the role of a father.

That can be through coaches and mentors, teachers, church leaders, et cetera. So there's lots of ways to do that, but those are the two forms of fatherlessness. Two summaries of how we address both of those. So good. And in my own life, just having struggles in my own family, you know, in my relationship with my dad, the breakdown of my parents' marriage and all of that, I have to say, like you mentioned mentors, that's been so healing and so helpful for me in becoming, uh, the man that I wanna be the man that God wants me to be.

And so I, I love that you're approaching it like that. And you're, you know, not just giving a generic solution, you're really looking at the problem, understanding it and going after it, I wanna shift gears a little bit and speak to all the, the new fathers listening and the future fathers, all those men out there.

What are some practical things dads can do? Uh, even right now, for those of us who, who are dads to, to fill their kids' needs. Great question. And I'll tell you, it's really interesting. I've got, we live south of Nashville, Tennessee, and I have a lot of young men in their late twenties, early thirties. Most of them are not even fathers yet or even married yet.

And they're kind of coming around me because they, they want to learn. They have this earnest desire to be a good father, be a great father and, and they wanna start to equip themselves even well before they're ready for. And I love seeing that. I just, I'm still young enough that I'm relevant and they can see maybe a vision of what they, they want in the future.

You know, I'm not perfect. It looks something like what we have to my wife and I, and our four kids, but I'm not old enough that I'm still not relevant in space. So sure. This question is really, really top of mind for me right now, because I have all these young men around me and they're craving for that knowledge and craving for that advice.

So what I would tell any young man or young father. there's a couple of key principles. The first one is to recognize that not your job to be your kid's hero. I think that's really important to understand you need to be your kid's guide, because if you're your kid's hero, then what happens is you take the role of them achieving success or failure in their own life.

Oftentimes that's preventing them from experiencing failure, which they need to have at a young age when it's inconsequential. Right. Failure at, at 2, 3, 4, even eight years old is way different than failure at 22 32 42. Absolutely. And so if you experience failure in your youth, then you understand that process and, and have the mechanisms for dealing with failure for failing forward.

And understanding failure can be a superpower if done, if done. Right. And well, and so when you also serve as a guide, and this is really key for young men and young fathers is you allow other guides to come into your kids' lives and come into your life to serve where you don't have areas of expertise.

So that may be in the form of another man. Who's older than you, who you see someone that's in the, the church community or business community. What have you. That is a, is an example of the type of father you want to be. Maybe if you didn't have that kind of dad finding someone else who can mentor you as a father and give you a peek behind the door, around the corner for what that's gonna look like and what you need to know, that's what our platform tries to do.

So that's one thing I think the other thing is if your kids get a little bit older, it allows you to bring those guides into your kids' life and serve your kids by giving them experiences or skill sets that you can't give them for. I am not handy at all. Like I'm no chip gain I didn't grow up around cars and automobiles.

And so my kids want to build an obstacle course for daddy Saturday. Like I'm not the guy for the job, but I have lots of friends that are, and other dads that are, and so they can help come in and teach my kids skills like carpentry or working on an automobile or even, um, hunting and fishing in certain capacities that I don't have experience around.

My kids have had some of the coolest, most amazing experiences. Because I've let my ego go. I've served as a guide and allow other guides to come into my kids' lives. And that has served both myself and my kids extremely well. I'd also say that when you do that, it gives you a chance to zoom out and have a different perspective on your kids and, and your relationship because you get to just watch your kids and observe, and you'll learn far more about your kids when you're, when you're kind of.

The scenario without perspective then being in it. And as dads, we have a tendency to be in it all the time, doing it, solving it, fixing. and when you zoom out, it gives you a chance to really look at your kids' personality, understand who they are and what they're called to be so good. And I think that takes a lot of pressure off fathers as well.

I'm a, a new dad right now. My wife and I are expecting a baby in about two months here. And we're, we're so excited a little girl on the way. And so I have to admit this interview's a little bit selfish. I wanted to. Learn from you and, and hear, yeah, just the practical things that you would say to, to really start living this out.

Cause I wanna do it right. I wanna do what you said. Um, so I identify a lot with those men, those young men who are coming around you and, and looking for guidance. And so, uh, but yeah, I think, I think it takes pressure off cuz I think dads, uh, and moms, but especially dads, I think we have this expectation and maybe it's our pride that tells us we have to.

Know everything and have everything together. And we have to be the sole source. Like you said, the KIRO, the one who, who rescues the day all the time. Yeah. And, and that's, you know, it's a, it's a myth. We tell ourselves, it's the story we tell ourselves in, in our heads is dads and his men. And you know what?

So my last name is bat. I grew up as a fan of Batman. All my, I have three boys as well as our daughter and Batman is like a concert around our house. So I'm always like, who's my superhero, right? It's Batman, of course, by default, there's some other cool superheroes and great superpowers as well. But I always go back to Batman.

It's kinda like the quote and life always be yourself, unless you can be Batman, always be Batman we live by that in our household. But at the same time, um, I uncovered my superpower and it, it surprised me greatly. And I think it'll probably surprise you as well. My superpower is. I think for any dad, that's what I want you to hear.

New dad, old dad, doesn't matter. Season dad, I should call an old dad a season. Dad sacrifices your superpower. And here's why because I've spent over 14,000 hours engaging my kids combined Saturdays over the last 13 years. I've spent over 500 Saturdays with my kid and plus substantial investment. I don't have a golf game.

I've given them a lot of friendships and relationships. I quit drinking four years ago. Cause alcohol wasn't helping me do my best on those Saturdays. And, and other times with my kid, I. Have given up a lot of hobbies. I don't do long distance athletic events anymore because the training regimen is too much and it pulls me away from my family.

So there are things like that, that I've made huge sacrifices in over time, but those sacrifices are investments in my children investments in my marriage investments, in our legacy together. And I know looking back, it's going be, you know, exponential in terms of the growth and the relationship that we have long term, and it's a big journey.

So my encouragement would be. Really understanding that, you know, what is your superpower as a dad? Your superpower is sacrifice. And sometimes that sacrifice comes in the form will also be quick to say, you're sorry. Been quick to apologize, know you're wrong and to move forward, cuz we're all gonna make mistakes.

There is no perfect dad. Um, you will, you will make. Mistakes you will fall short. Um, it is inevitable. I do it daily and I'm in the space trying to be really great at it and great at it for other people. And I still fall short all the time. Yeah, no, it's so good. And the, the humility factor that, that you mentioned, I think is so important for all of us to hear because man, our egos can be the enemy.

And so I, I love what you said and I also love Batman. my favorite movie. No, no kidding. Uh, is Batman begins. There's just so much in that movie that I resonate with. And so I. I love what you mentioned. Uh, I wanna get a little bit personal here. You, you mentioned that you make mistakes, you've messed up and, and I think that's, uh, really helpful to hear because it, we can learn so much from you.

And so I'm curious, like through those failures, what, what are a couple things that you've learned along the way that, that we can learn from, from you? Well, I think it's really important to understand who you are first as an individual, as, as a person, understand what your trigger points are. Underst. Your personality style.

Are you an Exploder? Are you an imploder right? Are you aggressive? Are you passive aggressive? How do you handle those relationships? What are your fear? Buttons? There's a great book by Gary Smalley called the DNA of relationships. And my two fear buttons were fear of, of controls. Other people controlling me.

The other one was, uh, fear of being invalidated and, oh my goodness. Talk about two fear buttons that kids can step on all the time. There's many times where I feel like things are out of control or I'm losing control, especially with four kids and then being invalidated. Oh my goodness. Right? You're in the middle of a store and your child starts to have a meltdown or starts to behave in a way that is so unbecoming of who you know, that they are or what you would want them to do, or you know what our, our rules are as a.

and like, talk about being invalidated, right? It's like you wanna have one of those Walmart moments on your kids. Mm-hmm . And so how do you understand that process of who you are and what your fear buttons are and what your insecurities are? Because listen, your kids are gonna bring out every single one of those.

They're gonna invalidate you constantly. You're gonna feel like you have many points along the journey, the most selfish, ungrateful people in your life. And I have incredible kids. I mean, they're amazing. but oftentimes other people get their best and we tend to get their worst. So as parents, and that's the way for a lot of parents.

And so just understanding that and what those trigger points are. So that like for me, I go 110 miles an hour. I'm very, very passionate. So my volume can get loud quickly. There are many points where I've had a temper and I've lost my temper at times with my kids. And it is horrible. I hate. and, you know, looking back, those are such moments of regrets in my life as a parent.

And there's still points where I mess up, but I've got the awareness. Now I've got the triggers that I know are gonna happen. And so I can maintain the relationship first, instead of focusing on the result that I maybe want to have happen. And that alone is so important because at the end of the day, when you look at the long tail of father, Your kids, you want them to come around and be around you when they have the option to, and the only way that's gonna happen.

And especially as a new dad to be thinking that long term, it's really important because the way you do that is by relationship. And if you build a relationship, right, and that includes making mistakes and saying, you're sorry, and showing them how to apologize. Then you'll have that long term relationship.

So good. And that goes back to your tagline, which is, you know, raising good kids who become great adults. Like you're not just in it to be your kid's best friend, but you're really thinking long term, which I love just for, for any man out there right now. Who, who comes from a broken home, especially who didn't see what it was like to, to be a good dad.

What encouragement would you give to him? Especially if he just doesn't feel like he has what it takes to be that great father you're talking. Well, what I would say is you have what it takes. You just don't know what it takes. Cause you didn't have that model for you. And that's not your fault. So I would say, I'm sorry, I'm sorry that you didn't have a dad in your life that showed you that.

And, and I, I feel for you and that is a horrible, horrible thing. Um, you may be a, a kid who, or a child who had a, a dad that was in their life, but maybe didn't model things very well and raised you in a way. There was some, some damage done, right? We almost all have a father wound, whether that was abandonment or performance based fathers or authoritarian fathers.

There's a lot of, of ways that we were all raised and issues that we have and wounds that we have your job is to learn what that wound is. It's to achieve healing and offer forgiveness for your father, whether you've met him or he is there or not. And then it's to look at your own relationship with your kids and realize that you don't have to pass that down to your own kid.

That bitter. Is cut out and ends with you. You have the option to choose the father. You want to be to your kids, whether you had a dad or a good dad or not, that's irrelevant. And so you have the power to choose the relationship, the legacy, the memories that you wanna have with your own children. And then it's your role then to take fatherhood seriously and to go out and learn.

Cuz none of us know, we all have that wound. And so what resources are you gonna take advantage of what people you're gonna surround yourself? And how are you going to treat fatherhood as if it's your life's work and you're gonna work at it with everything you have to be the best father you could possibly be.

Love it. Yeah. And that goes back to what you said before. Just this mentality that you can't do it alone, which I greatly appreciate. And again, takes a lot of pressure off knowing that you can lean on other people let's shift over to, uh, to young people who don't have father. how can they, uh, again, these young people who maybe like you said, they didn't have a FA father physically present, or maybe their dad was there, but he was emotionally checked out.

How can they compensate for those needs that dad never filled? And I'm sure this is gonna echo some of the advice you've already given, but I'm curious specifically here, how could they compensate to fill those needs? Well, , you know, that's a really big question. That's the role of the father is to provide so many of those, those values and examples.

And to, to teach, we, we have a principal on daddy Saturday that that says far more is caught than taught. And so, so much of that is just by being around a father, father figure. I have a, a gentleman that I know who's in his sixties and he went to the foster system and was an orphan. It didn't have a dad in his life.

He told me this story that blew my mind. He said he finally was adopted by this, or was in a foster family. And the dad came home for dinner every night. The dad brought his paycheck home and spent his money on his family. And, and he would sit at dinner and he'd have a couple conversations. And the dad came home every single night and he never had that in his whole life.

Those simple things of having a dad come home every night and be there for dinner and spend his money on his family to provide for. Was earth shattering for him. And so I want you just to have perspective, right? That, that no matter what your situation is, you can rise above it and rise out of it. I think that there are going to be deficiencies or areas of, of weakness, or just areas where you have insecurity or have lack of knowledge as a father.

That's going to be natural depending on your situation. It could be greater than others. But what I would challenge everyone with is to say, you've got the ability. To learn and to grow and to rise above all those circumstances. Now how you do that is up to you. But I think that as long as you're motivated to move down that path towards learning and growing and not letting it be a stumbling block, or even an excuse, frankly, or to play the victim mentality, cause it's not gonna get you anywhere.

And that may sound like it's harsh. Um, but at the end of the. You are responsible for your role to your own children as the type of father you want to be. And yes, your father may have had an impact on you and his abandonment or lack of being there may have had a huge impact on you, but there are so many people and resources, and we're creating some resources guys that are gonna blow your mind.

That'll help with this exact same thing that are coming out. They're just not out yet. But, um, I can speak to that and say, there is content. There is, there are books. There are videos there. All sorts of different opportunities to help you grow beyond what you were lacking from your own father. Love it.

Thank you for that. And please tell us a little bit about what are you offering at daddy Saturday, both for dads, and then also for, uh, young people who don't have a dad. So daddy, saturday.com is the hub for everything. It's it's the website. I think we've got a couple of opportunities there that I'll, I'll mention quickly.

So one. For dads who just want information. We're starting a couple of new platforms called the two minute drill. We've got our data Saturday playbook. These are all about ideas. If you can quickly implement easily with your kids to create epic memories together, that's how you be intentional, how you engage 'em um, you can find the book there.

The book is our, our playbook for fatherhood being intentional, super practical. And then we're launching a, a mobile application. The mobile app is gonna house our curriculum called dad boss. Which is all around how you grow as a father and level up and faith, family fitness and finances, and then also develop friendships.

And none of those friendships there'll be virtual communities. You can join based areas of interest like new dads or divorce dads, or girl dads, whatever that is. Um, we're also starting our local community coaches. So you can step up and say, I wanna be a daddy Saturday coach in my local. That will allow you to then be that leader and step up and have other dads join you in community and do amazing epic activities with your kids, as well as their kids and your local community.

So those are some resources for dads, uh, for kids. Oh my gosh. I'm so excited. So, uh, we both know of, or no, Donald Miller story brand business made simple. Um, I just got certified as a business made simple. Awesome. I'm launching a program called kid boss and kid boss is gonna provide life changing business education for every child, which I believe they should have access to.

And it is going to help them become an entrepreneur, start their own business, learn how to do that and do it well and essentially own their future. And so we'll have that opportunity. We'll, we'll teach dads how to help your kids do that. And then we've got a program directly for kids and it's all.

Business made simple story brand hero on a mission, which are, are Donald Miller's, uh, just amazing curriculums. Love it. So good. Congrats on that. I, I didn't know you were a coach and that's, that's amazing. And I look forward to seeing what you produce and, uh, promoting it to, to our audience and really grateful for you for your time.

If people wanna follow you on social and other places, what's the best way to do that. Yeah. So follow me personally, add Justin bat on LinkedIn. That's where you can connect with me. Also, uh, daddy.com, as I mentioned is our hub. And then please also visit all of our social across Facebook, Instagram. We're at daddy Saturday at D daddy Saturday.

You'll see the DS logo and you can't mess this. Awesome. Justin, I wanna give you the last word here. Uh, like you touched on a little bit before, uh, one of the huge fears that those of us who come from broken homes have, is repeating the dysfunction that we experience. We, we don't want that. We're afraid of it, but statistically, we often fall into that.

Like we end up getting divorced. We end up creating the same dysfunction that we experience in our own families. And so. What would you say to someone who just feels very broken right now, a young person? Uh, what encouragement would you give them to just get unstuck in life to start thriving, to just build a better life than they had in the future or in the past?

I'm sorry. Well, I would say this there's this there's this scientific process called epigenetics. And it's the fact that far more was passed on than just your DNA. It was the environment, the experiences of your parents, even your grandparents, and it's all passed. And so you've got that inside of you.

Think of it like an iceberg. And most of us are only willing to look at the tip of the iceberg. And many, very few of us are willing to go down deep and really dig into that and pull that out on the surface and deal with it because the problem is if you don't deal with it, it's still there. Whether you wanna acknowledge it or not.

So my encouragement would be, we've all got that iceberg inside of us. Again, regardless of our circumstances, it's there. The father wound's going to be. So you have to pull it out. You have to deal with it. You have to look at what caused it, what you would do differently, how you would do that and start to analyze the process.

And when you pull it out, as painful as it can be the necessary process and outta that pain can come, purpose can come potential. And what I would say is that every single one of you listening as a potential dad as a current dad, um, future dad, whatever your circumstance. You have the potential to be an incredible dad to your kids.

It's inside of you again, regardless of your circumstances, it's just up to you pull it out, own it. And if we can be a small help in that process, we're glad to do it.

One big takeaway from me. You don't have to be perfect. I mentioned that a couple times in the show, cause I think it's so important to remember cuz I think dads and moms too, parents in general, feel this pressure to get it all right. To be perfect, to not mess up. And Justin's really giving us permission saying no, you're gonna mess up.

It's gonna happen. Be prepared for it. In fact, expect it. Just be ready to learn and. From your mistakes. And I think that's so, so helpful and it takes so much pressure off so that you can just focus on becoming a better, stronger parent, a better, stronger father than just maybe beating yourself up for failing in a way that you thought you were supposed to be perfect.

And I think there's a lot of. Pride there as well. When we feel that now we can't mess up. We have to be perfect. We have to be that superhero for our kids and never make any mistakes. And so it's refreshing to hear like, no, you don't need to be perfect. And in order to become better though, uh, we need to rely on other people, like Justin said, like, like we need to check our egos.

We need to rely on other people. Not think that we can do it all alone. And make use of the resources like Justin's nonprofit and the things that he mentioned, the book and his podcasts, and just make use of those resources so that we can become the father that we wish we had. And so one question for you to kind of chew on is what did you learn about fatherhood from your own dad?

And maybe you had a great father and you learned a lot of great things from your dad, but maybe you didn't and you learned a lot of unhealthy things. Maybe you learned lies about fatherhood and even. Masculinity. And so give that some thought, like, what did you learn from your dad when it comes to fatherhood?

And if you wanna, you can write those out. You can put 'em into words, you can talk to someone about it, but definitely give this some thought, think about it. I think this is an important step and becoming, uh, the father that you wish you had. And so give this some thought, give this some. If you want more from Justin, I invite you to buy his book.

Daddy's Saturday. Uh, you can click on the link in the show notes to buy the book or just buy it from wherever you buy books. Like Amazon, the resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 45. Thank you guys so much for listening. We do this for you, and if it's been useful, I invite you to subscribe and to.

This podcast and always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

I Knew Finally That Somehow My Life Was Worth Living

18 minute read

This story was written by an anonymous contributor at 40 years old. His parents divorced when he was 9 years old. He gave permission for his story to be shared.

HIS STORY

I don't know. I still don't know.

In 1950, the United States of America entered the Korean War. A newlywed Catholic man in the city of New York joined the Army, left his new bride, fought in the Far East, won a Purple Heart, and returned home with a bad case of shell shock and mysterious brain cancer.

His family opposed the marriage for ethnic reasons and so disowned him. He fathered three daughters with his bride, but their stormy marriage ended when he succumbed to brain cancer barely two years after the birth of the youngest daughter.

The widow embraced a tyrannical and acrimonious parenting style. That youngest daughter went to a university on the other side of the state, earned a bachelor's degree, and met a young man. He came from a local intact Catholic family with several brothers, possibly with some alcohol problems, served for four years in the Navy, returned home, and met this young woman.

After a few years of various activities, they moved to Virginia Beach, where he started a job as a civilian mechanic for the Navy. They deluded the state into registering them as married but apparently never celebrated a sacramental wedding. When an unusual series of severe snowstorms struck the city, she conceived me, their firstborn son.

I thought that I had an idyllic childhood with two loving parents and three wonderful younger siblings. My mother took care of us children at home while my father worked as a civilian for the Navy. We went to Mass at the local Catholic parish every Sunday. In time, I attended the local public school and earned good grades.

They seemingly had no friends and almost never engaged in any social encounters insofar as I saw. I expected to emulate my father when I attained adulthood, and he encouraged and affirmed my chosen career path, which ultimately I followed, even though it didn't match his career.

Each summer, our family spent a week or so in the city of New York, visiting my maternal grandmother, her parents, and sometimes a few of her relatives. We never visited the family of my father, and they rarely conversed on the telephone or sent letters or packages. Apparently, my mother thought that a married man should have no contact with his family of origin.

As the United States of America achieved victory in the Cold War, the Navy began to prepare for major downsizing. My father wanted to continue his career with the Navy, so he occasionally took evening, overnight, and weekend shifts instead of or in addition to his normal daytime shift and trained for several alternative positions.

This change clearly upset my mother. I noticed an increase in acrimony, but I heard that parents sometimes disagree, so I didn't recognize any major problems. The idea of parents separating for a reason other than military deployment or death simply never entered my mind. Regardless, my father increased his alcohol consumption and on rare occasions engaged in mildly regretful behavior while drunk. Meanwhile, my newborn youngest sister experienced a series of worrisome health problems, beginning with a somewhat low birth weight, which my mother later attributed to stress from marital discord.

One summer, we went to the city of New York as usual, but my father stayed in Virginia Beach and worked at his job and repaired the house. Our vacation lasted not for one or two weeks but for four or five weeks. When we returned, I noticed that he hadn't mowed the lawn. After our return, my father mowed the lawn, and normal family life seemingly resumed. But a week or two later, he loaded his car with a rather large quantity of clothes and some other things and departed. He never returned.

What happened? I didn't know. I thought of perhaps a business trip or a sea voyage with the Navy or even in the merchant marine. But the hours turned to days and weeks and months and years. Strangely, cash began to appear in our mailbox on Navy paydays. My father must have sent it, so he probably went not far away, but confusingly, he didn't see, speak, or play with me anymore. And my mother used appalling language to describe him in his absence. Her spoken rationale for the separation made no sense in the context of my knowledge of my father. But one oft-repeated reason struck me: My father hated me and wanted to do terrible things to me

HOW THE DIVORCE MADE HIM FEEL

Initially, little in my life changed with the absence of my father. We continued to live in the same house, to engage in the same type of activities, and to attend Mass every Sunday. I progressed from elementary school to middle school and knew nobody in my new class. I vented my anger at the alleged hatred of my father mostly through yelling despicable insults at the wind.

But as the firstborn son, I carried an obligation to my younger siblings to defend the honor and reputation of my family. Within the first year, I determined to conceal the shameful separation and never mentioned it to anybody. I never invited anyone to my house, and when I received invitations to social engagements, I always declined, lest I incur an obligation to reciprocate and thus risk revealing the absence of my father.

As a consequence, I developed few friendships in middle school, none of them close. If pressed for information about my father, I generally responded that he works on ships and that they go out to sea a lot and that he doesn't say much about his job.

The departure of my father from the family home left me, a nine-year-old boy, as the man of the house, implicitly responsible for providing my mother with the technical assistance, financial resources, muscle power, and emotional support to run a household.

In this role, I barely tried and failed miserably. I perhaps wanted to mow the lawn, but I couldn't even find a way into the garage to access the lawnmower, which as a child I wasn't allowed to use. I knew not how to fulfill this necessary role. Instead, after bumbling for a year or two, my mother developed a relationship with another man.

This new man took an interest in my family and genuinely tried to support me and better our lives whenever he experienced sobriety. Unfortunately, he often drank alcohol to excess and sometimes erupted in a drunken rage. Nevertheless, he capably fulfilled the duties of "man of the house" at which I failed completely. I still dreaded this new relationship because it both destroyed any potential for restoration of my father and brought the outbursts of alcohol-fueled rage into the house. But I could not deny my relative inadequacies as man of the house. Nor did I appreciate the trauma to come.

Increasingly, meanwhile, I began to wonder why my father suddenly hated me enough to abandon the family. In reality, he neither hated me nor tried to destroy my life nor wished me ill. But I had no means of knowing that my father didn't hate me. I ultimately concluded that I did something so reprehensible, so horrific, so despicable--something that no other child ever did--that it caused my previously loving father to hate me irreversibly. But what? I tried to remember but failed to identify the deed of mine that caused this separation.

Some time amid this situation, the state courts finalized the legal divorce between my father and my mother. The settlement made minor changes to the status quo but unleashed the opportunity for a new period of dysfunction and chaos. It began with cohabitation and fornication and culminated in another fake marriage. They deceived the state into accepting them as married but never received the sacrament of holy matrimony (nor any Catholic marriage preparation, however inadequate).

The drunken fits of rage gradually increased in frequency and intensity with the passing of the years, and this new man frequently insulted my mother, my siblings, and me even before they deluded the state into considering them married. Although he acted quite pleasantly and helpfully when sober, that sobriety came progressively less frequently. When drunk, his behavior varied from fits of rage to repeating verbal insults to urinating around the house to snoring semi-consciousness.

For all of these problems, I increasingly blamed myself. I accepted his insults as factual truths about my nature, my character, my identity. I thought that if only I didn't exist, then my family would revert to a peaceful, healthy state. I blamed myself for the departure of my father, for this abusive relationship, for his drunkenness, for the fits of rage, fights, and discord. I began to see this man as an innocent victim, as a tool with which I tortured my family. But I was too stupid, too malicious, too evil-hearted, too oblivious to identify and to reform the attitudes and the behaviors of mine that caused all of these problems.

Meanwhile, in middle school, I made little effort, and my grades plunged. I misbehaved frequently but rarely got caught. With the chaos at home, I continued to avoid friendships. In time, I passed from middle school to high school. I aspired to win admittance to a university to pursue my chosen career, and my mother and my father long earlier endorsed this goal.

Moreover, the prospect of traveling far away to attend a university represented an honorable escape from a profoundly unhappy home life, one that my younger siblings ultimately followed. Therefore, I began to put more effort into increasingly rigorous academic schoolwork and enrolled in several extracurricular activities.

But I still tried to avoid developing friendships, lest people come to know my shameful and awful family situation, or, worse, my malign influence ruin their lives too. Meanwhile, my prayer life utterly collapsed except continued attendance at Mass on Sunday (which I valued principally as an hour-long escape from almost incessant conflict) and at the mandatory but almost worthless religious education classes, which culminated in the sacrament of confirmation.

The situation at home deteriorated into unpredictable episodes of property destruction and criminal violence about which I never told anyone. I used school as a refuge from the chaos at home and trained myself to think only about the academic course material and not about the home situation while at school or on school buses.

At home, I tried to study but internalized the loud insults and assumed blame for the violence. The man of the house often dredged up minor incidents from years earlier and used them to taunt me for weeks on end. I erected numerous barriers in my mind to keep the problems as secret as possible. I tried to minimize the requests of my family. I imposed painful punishments on myself for causing the wrath and for failing to stop it.

Despite my improving grades, I still sometimes slipped back into those bad middle-school habits and fell short. I wanted to leave the family on honorable terms that set a good example for my younger siblings and so end the drunkenness and trauma.

Meanwhile, my already gravely awful self-image darkened still more. I tried to avoid social relationships in general, but once I reached the eleventh grade, numerous students saw me as a classmate in several classes during the school day and in extracurricular activities. Hence, peers began to capture me into their social networks, even if only for potential help with unrelentingly rigorous school classes and activities.

Insofar as I knew, everyone in the high school (or more properly, those who took advanced classes in preparation for university admission) except my sister and I all came from intact, functional, loving families. I began to think that my malevolence extended well beyond my family throughout the community like a sort of malicious, quasi-spiritual, almost demonic Rube Goldberg machine that I alone triggered with my misdeeds. And I couldn't find a way to stop triggering it. Meanwhile, in my worldview, everyone else in my life simply, effortlessly, and unfailingly avoided all the intuitively obvious misbehavior with which I continually drove my family into ever deeper dysfunction. Of course, this self-perception was utterly insane.

With the maelstrom at home continuing to intensify still further, I tried to reveal nothing and continued to decline all invitations for social interaction and even study groups outside the school day. Even so, people noticed something not right, including deep-seated pessimism and low self-esteem.

School teachers occasionally questioned me discreetly about my home situation, but I invariably identified myself as the only problem. I feared that if people learned the truth, then the state would take my siblings away to my father, who would torture, abuse, and abandon them as another manifestation of my malignity. Even if that didn't happen, I wanted people to think highly of my sister and my younger siblings.

Nevertheless, somehow, despite my concealment and aloofness, I managed to fall very unintentionally into a particularly helpful support network. My classmates treated me kindly and tried to encourage me, but I began to suspect (almost certainly wrongly) that they did so not from charity or amity but from fear of my malevolence. I don't know what my classmates knew, thought, or said of me in my absence.

Nowadays, I can see the hand of God working through the situation for my benefit. One day as a struggled through classes and contemplated the premature end of my wretched life, I turned, exasperated, to a particularly widely admired girl, who somehow made acing schoolwork appear easy. She smiled at me and softly spoke the best advice I have ever received in a single word: "Pray."

I should have followed, but I came to perceive the attitude of the man of the house on a drunken rampage as a mere shadow of the wrath with which God the Father intended to punish me eternally for my sins in causing all the trouble in my family and into the wider community. And I thought that that man forgave more easily than God. I feared that even attempting to pray only would provoke more intense wrath from God. Obviously, I suffered from horribly warped misconceptions and denial of the mercy of God.

I can relate still more horrible episodes from those years. But this essay has gone too long. The city police finally removed the man of the house after another drunken violent rampage, and he faced trial for felony assault charges. This outcome confused me as I saw him as an innocent victim, a tool of my malevolence, akin to an ax in the hand of an ax murderer, an automaton without sufficient capacity to choose less harmful actions.

Although we expected him to return with even worse violence, he only engaged in occasional harassment, and I never saw him again outside the courtroom. Although he held a good job, his alcohol consumption, expensive toys, and property destruction made him a net drain on household finances. My younger brother assumed the role of man of the house, keeping the cars in good repair, mowing the lawn, fixing broken stuff, and warding away a series of suitors. A divorce ultimately followed sometime later but changed nothing.

Despite my manifest insanity and with tremendous unsolicited encouragement from that peer support network, I applied to a prestigious university in the Northeast. The university accepted me, much to my surprise, and my high school graduated me, so I went to higher education with even a partial scholarship.

HOW HIS PARENTS' DIVORCE HAS IMPACTED HIM

I arrived on a university campus where I knew nobody. I intended to try to earn a degree and if possible to learn how to behave as a professional man. Although I suspected insurmountable academic challenges, the rigorous high school curriculum prepared me well.

Many years of intentional social avoidance, however, left me with very poor social skills. A deep depression haunted and engulfed me, and I often struggled to summon the willpower to complete the most basic tasks. The intense moral darkness that characterizes the American university scene eroded my already warped sense of right and wrong. I mistook sophistries for sapience and tried in vain to find the logical coherence of the incoherent nonsense of the day.

I concluded that I was simply too stupid for the university scene despite grades high enough to earn a bachelor's and master's degree. Hearing of the concept of "microaggressions," small, often unconscious actions with supposedly enormous potential to degrade entire cultures, made me fear participating in society, lest my already manifest malign influence ruin more and more lives.

And in a notorious "party school" culture, complete with alcohol abuse and widespread sexual improprieties, misery enveloped the lives of many students (and failed ex-students who continued to live in the community). My goal of training myself to act as an upright young American professional found no obvious solution. I frequently planned ways of ending my earthly life and proceeding immediately to Hell, which, I imagined, would bring relief and healing and joy to everyone around me. I just wanted to take as few other, innocent souls with me to Hell as possible.

Because I arrived from a household that always went to Mass on Sunday (and probably unconsciously because my father unfailingly took me to Mass on Sunday when he still lived with me), I mostly continued that habit on campus. Early in my university years, I somehow by the grace of God got sucked into the small Catholic community on this enormous campus.

At first, I went principally because it offered free food close to my dormitory. The food stopped, but for some not articulable reason, I kept going anyway. When I withdrew and ceased attending these functions, some fellow students noticed me on campus and goaded me into returning. These messages that I heard resonated in my heart and in my mind but contrasted sharply with almost every other influence in my life. I thought that I was just too stupid to understand the logical coherence between the message of the Church and that of the larger university community.

And I had no parents, no father to whom I might turn for help or even just emotional support in navigating this strange world. The upbeat, emotionally charged events managed if only briefly and partially to interrupt the thick fog of severe depression and constant negative self-talk. Somehow through those long and severely awful years, Jesus Christ through His Church gave me the will to live. But over many years, I adopted the actions and attitudes of the culture and a lifestyle of constant grave sin. And it wasn't just the despair and depression.

One April evening of my final year on that campus, I entered a large but otherwise empty university classroom, where I encountered a Catholic priest. He immediately began the sacrament of confession, "Father, forgive you, for you have sinned. It has been ___ months since your last confession. But that was not a good confession. In fact, you've never made a good confession." I did nothing to prepare for this encounter, but he was right. I couldn't identify sin in my life.

After so many years of university indoctrination, I wondered whether twitching the wrong way in an elevator was a grave sin, whereas killing a baby was a good deed. I never had a father to teach me manly virtue. I didn't know how to behave. I certainly didn't want to repeat any role in the trauma the unfolded over several years in my home, and I thought that God couldn't forgive me until I identified the sins of mine that precipitated the problems and restored the happy marriage of my parents, all without His divine assistance. And even if I managed that impossible task, then God probably would decline mercy and send me to Hell eternally anyway. Or so I erroneously thought.

Instead of requiring me to list my sins, however, the priest listed and described my sins for me; I said only, "Yes, Father," when asked to assent. He then led me through a primitive act of contrition. At this time, I fully expected to hear him berate me as irredeemable, but he instead pronounced the words of absolution.

He then reiterated and reemphasized that because God forgave me my sins, if I die immediately through no fault of my own, then I would go ultimately and eternally to Heaven. So for once, Jesus Christ, my God in the person of His priest gave me hope, set me free, and directed me on the right Way through this miraculous encounter. And although the deep depression quickly resumed, the suicidal impulses never returned. I knew then finally that somehow my life was worth living.

I ultimately graduated, left the world of academia, moved halfway across the country, and somehow managed to find a job. I tried to stop those habits of sin that I confessed. I joined a Catholic parish and began the practice of regular confession. I tried to follow a severely disciplined lifestyle. Initially, I expected to fail at my job, and I still feared that my malign influence would ruin the lives of my colleagues and particularly might destroy their marriages.

But as the months and years unfolded, events realized non of my fears. I kept my job, my colleagues did not turn into abusive alcoholics, their marriages didn't fail, and my fears slowly began to subside. With still no real social life, I began to seek answers to the deeper questions of life, obvious answers that everyone else already knew intuitively (or at least they so understood in the era of Christendom). Eventually, I quit the self-harm, and the depression gradually began to lift.

But even as I accepted the willingness of God to forgive my own sins, I still blamed myself entirely for the divorce of my parents and for the abusive relationship that followed. And as much as I wanted to marry, I had no positive male role models to follow. I only slowly after several years began to build a limited social life. I imagined that a married man confines his human interactions to the family of his wife and those minimally necessary to provide for his wife and children, as I observed as a small boy. Anything more, I presumed, constituted infidelity.

In conformity with this supposed societal expectation, I avoided conversations with persons whom I knew or suspected to be married. Of course, that meant that I had no even observational experience of healthy family life. And I never even dated a woman. In fact, I still haven't gone on a first date yet, even at my advanced age.

Eventually, more than twenty years after the separation, I found a telephone number for my father on the Internet and reestablished contact. I quickly found that he doesn't hate me, doesn't wish ill upon me, and doesn't even blame me for the separation, which, I now appreciate if only slightly, hurts him terribly.

I began to question whether perhaps I wasn't entirely and exclusively at fault. Then I wondered whether forgiving my parents for their separation necessarily entailed assuming the blame and guilt. I still struggle with these concepts. And I wish that I had performed better as an older brother to my siblings. Living a thousand miles away prevents my mother from running my life and interfering with my finances. But it also separates me from my sister and her family and from my brother and his family and from my youngest sister, also still unmarried. Hearing my mother repeatedly propose divorce to my siblings pains me greatly, and I regularly inveigh against the wretched idea.

And although I began to build a somewhat normal social life, I still avoid revealing the true state of my parents' marital status. I don't really have any close friendships. I try to avoid imposing burdens on people, asking for favors, or interfering in their private lives. I still struggle with negative self-talk, especially regarding interpersonal relationships. Nevertheless, I have one particular rather outgoing married friend, who has shared with me the joys of family life as he rears and educates his many children. I still look at faithful husbands with awe, and I struggle to attain to the maturity that they displayed even as teenagers. I recognize the great good of fatherhood. But I doubt that I ever will attain to the qualities and character necessary to start a family. Or even try.

ADVICE TO SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS HAVE DIVORCED OR SEPARATED

This wound doesn't heal. It only gets worse with time. This is your cross, so take up your cross and follow Jesus. You cannot control your parents and their relationship (really, you can't), but you still can attempt to minimize and control secondary wounds. But how?

First, get to confession. Even if you single-handedly caused the divorce (and assuredly you did not, but even then), then God wants to forgive you and awaits you in the confessional. Moreover, confessions are secret, and Saint Jan Nepomucký even died as a martyr in defense of the seal of the confessional. So don't worry about your parents or anyone else learning what you confess. (You may try to schedule your confession so that your parents aren't nearby and cannot overhear, but rest assured, Father will not tell them.)

If you cannot make the confession schedule, call the parish office or just visit when you can and dare to inquire. Try to find an "examination of conscience" sheet to help you to prepare. If you cannot find one or do not understand the vocabulary, do not fear. Just enter the confessional and say, "Father, forgive me, for I have sinned. It has been (number) months since my last confession. I don't know what behavior is and is not sinful, so please help me."

If your parish doesn't help, then try a different parish; you can confess at any parish or anywhere else you may encounter a Catholic priest. And Church law requires confession at least once per year and whenever conscious of mortal sin, but many bishops encourage confession at least monthly, even weekly. It is perfectly okay to decline meeting your parents' new partners. It is okay to not attend family events for a bit if it will hurt you. You need to focus on your healing, not keeping your parents happy. Seek Christ, even when it is so hard and even if you are angry.

Second, pray every day, prayer brings you in communion with God. If your situation allows, pray in silence before the Blessed Sacrament exposed in adoration. A former youth minister at my current parish recommended an hour of contemplative prayer every day in addition to daily Mass and more. You may find that schedule too daunting or impossible to sustain in the face of your other obligations. But pray every day at least ten or twenty minutes.

Try to find a quiet space. If you cannot get to the local parish church, then pray in your room or in your backyard, stop at a local park en route to or from school, pray on the school bus, or wherever else you can find to make your sacred space. Saint Karol Józef Wojtyła, an orphaned slave of the Nazis, prayed daily at a cemetery in Kraków, where he learned of Saint Faustina Kowalska and the devotion to Divine Mercy. Just as that now-famous icon says, trust in Jesus. He will deliver you in the end, and he can assist you even now.

Third, get to church every Sunday and on any other day when the opportunity arises. If you have access to the Internet, a parish bulletin, or another resource, then try to follow the daily Mass readings. If you can go to Mass then go thither, regardless of how abandoned or awful or unlovable you may perceive yourself. Never miss church on Sunday.

God sent you a message in His Word, Jesus Christ, and in his word, the Scriptures. You have only to absorb the message. And remember that God did not forsake you; he never forsook His own Son. When on Good Friday, Jesus cries, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?," He in is excruciating agony does not despair of the presence of His Father; rather, He invites those within the range of His voice to join him in praying Psalm 22, He does not finish the psalm vocally because those in earshot already know the psalm because of their familiarity with this poetry of King David and also because he lacks the oxygen to continue; the crucified die of asphyxiation as they gradually lose the strength necessary to inhale. But Psalm 22 ends with a prediction of resurrection. You too should learn the Scriptures. And you too will flourish one day in a way that seems unimaginable now.

This isn't easy, and your life always will be complicated, confusing, and difficult. But sustain hope and persevere to the end and you will triumph, even if you cannot foresee any such possibility. Remember, God loves you.

HOW TO HELP YOUNG PEOPLE FROM DIVORCED OR SEPARATED FAMILIES

Stop divorce before it happens. Help people to understand the sacramental and indissoluble nature of holy matrimony. Try to identify, assist, and coach troubled couples. Teach people the laws of nature and of nature's God, recognition of which almost has vanished in our society. Start early, even before serious dating begins.

Outlaw pornography. Restore the Comstock act and enforce it.

Remember that these teens and young adults exist on every part of the socioeconomic scale in America today. Although dysfunctional households pervade the underclass, many aspiring young professionals and housewives suffer from dysfunctional families of origin. And some of us never publicly acknowledge it because we don't want to bring further discredit upon ourselves and our families.

Tragically, statistics now show that most American teenagers lack parents and survive in dysfunctional homes or otherwise lack stable home life. They need examples of healthy marriages, and with the suppression of good history and classical literature and moral instruction from public education, they also may need an introduction to the concept of genuine marital life.

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Four Ways to Work on Trust in Dating Relationships

4 minute read

How many times have you checked your food at a restaurant for poison?

Probably none. 

Would it be pretty easy for a chef to sneak something undesirable into your meal?

Most likely, yes it would.

So how come we all don’t examine our food closely upon its arrival and do some serious investigating before tucking in?

We trust.

If we didn’t trust, life would be much more difficult. What about that bridge you have to cross to get to work? Are you sure the engineers knew what the heck they were doing when they built it all those years ago? After all, bridges have collapsed before.

Think of the directions on your phone you so readily obey, what if the voice telling you to turn left is just as lost as you are?

Textbooks, recipes, reviews on Amazon...day in and day out, our normal, life things require us to trust.

This is especially true in relationships.

However, if you are from a broken family, it is very likely that you struggle with trust a little more than the average person.

An unfortunate consequence of our parents’ separation is that something that ought to have lasted forever, something that we should have always been able to count on, something that we trusted completely—let us down. Hard.

This makes navigating the already dicey world of dating less exciting and more agitating. 

I certainly found this to be true in my own relationships as I began to date in my early twenties. I was constantly on edge, looking for the red flag, wondering when the ball would drop, and interpreting the smallest gesture or word to mean something catastrophic. I became angry easily and lived in suspicion. 

I knew they were going to leave, it was just a matter of time. And I was not going to be caught off guard. Not again.

The issue with dating is that you are right when you say it may not last forever. That is how dating works. There is a risk. Just like eating the food that could be poisoned or taking directions from a machine...it could end poorly. 

Of course, the possibility of a relationship ending is much more proximate than a plotting chef.

So, how do people like us handle the uncertainty of how things will go in a relationship, while also giving the other person the benefit of the doubt?

Great question.

1. Know what you are looking for in a future spouse. 

   And by that, I don’t mean how tall you want them to be or what color eyes you think they should have. Think about the non-negotiables: how do you want them to treat you? Be specific. Are they mature? Responsible? Do they strive to be a better person? Do they have goals in life and intentions with dating? Can they appreciate the things you care about? Do they respect you and your world views? Sharing the same religion can be especially important as a lot of important values stem from that.

   I found it helpful to make a list. That way, the next time someone you might be interested in comes around, you can compare them (over time) to the list you made when you weren’t staring deeply into his or her beautiful blue eyes.

2. Have trusted advisors

   This also helped me out a whole lot while I was navigating the murky waters of relationships and dating. I found myself constantly interpreting things negatively and then catastrophizing as a result. Thankfully, I had a handful of people whose judgment I trusted that I could reach out to when I couldn’t tell fear from facts. 

   A peer can be helpful, but I would also recommend someone a little farther down the road in this journey, too. For me, it was my older brother, my mom, and sometimes my therapist. You want to have people who have been there done that, and can spot actual problems with their 20/20 hindsight perspective. Your point of view might be a little blurred with the excitement of a new relationship, and/or jaded because of your past. So give yourself some grace and don’t be afraid to ask for help.

3. Know that you are going to be okay, even if it’s not okay.

   This one was extremely difficult for me. I clung to my partners and stayed in relationships longer than I should have because I was afraid of the pain that I knew would inevitably accompany a breakup. In short, I made things a lot harder than they needed to be. 

   It did hurt. The breakups were awful, there’s no way around it. But I survived. And looking back, I’m so glad those breakups took place. Like extremely. Sometimes the aversion to suffering ends up just causing more suffering. 

   When you’re starting out a new relationship, you have to take solace in the reality that even if things don’t work out—you are going to be okay. You really are. And furthermore, this isn’t it. If this person isn’t your forever, it doesn’t mean you are unlovable, it doesn’t mean there isn’t someone out there for you, it just means this person wasn’t that person. And that is okay. 
   There is something so freeing about knowing that you really are going to be okay if things don’t work out with this particular person at this particular time. It allows you the space to truly discern if they are right for you and to enjoy the process of learning and loving another human being.

4. Actively work on healing your wounds.

   As a child from a broken home, you will struggle with relationships. It’s a hard fact to face, but the sooner you do, the sooner you can take steps to make this hurdle easier on yourself. 

   When I realized how much anxiety dating was causing me, I turned to therapy to help me with something I felt was too big to handle on my own. I can’t emphasize enough how much these sessions helped me. My therapist was able to question some underlying beliefs that my parents’ divorce had convinced me of, such as: men can’t be trusted. Love doesn’t last. I am undesirable/unlovable...it was hard work and painful at times, but well worth it.
   There are also other ways you can begin to work toward healing:

• Try this exercise.

• Start a journal.

• Find some support with our private online community.

• Start growing in your understanding of love and relationships.

• Set goals for yourself: spiritually, intellectually, physically and emotionally--where do you want to be? What do you want to accomplish? 

It takes time. And I mean a lot of time and effort to work through some of the wounds that come from our parents’ divorce. Take one small step at a time. Be gentle with yourself and don’t give up. Dating can be really scary for people like us, but for those of us who are called to marriage and family life, it is a risk that is 100% worth it. And it doesn’t have to be a super painful process. See it as an opportunity to grow in trust and as a person so that you will be well-equipped to take on the challenges that come with the next season of life.

Looking back, I wish I had trusted the process a little more and stressed a lot less. So learn from my mistakes, take a deep breath, and relax.

#044: Practical Tips for Becoming a Great Parent | Mike & Alicia Hernon

For most people, becoming a parent is beautiful but also scary and intimidating. But that is especially true for people from broken families. Often, we didn’t see a great example of parenthood, so we feel lost and unsure how to do it ourselves.

In this episode, we talk parenting with Mike and Alicia Hernon, the parents of 10 kids and leaders of a ministry for parents called The Messy Family Project. We discuss:

• How his parents’ divorce affected Mike as a husband and father

• Fears he had about becoming a father, how he overcame them, and how you can too

• Should you put your marriage first or your children first and why is that important?

• Lots of practical parenting tips, especially for new parents

• Encouragement if you feel like you don’t have what it takes to be a good parent because you never experienced it in your family 

Listen to The Messy Family Podcast

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

For most people becoming a parent is a really beautiful thing, but it's also scary. It's also intimidating and that's especially true for those of us who come from broken families. So often we didn't see a great example from maybe one or both parents of what it looks like. To be a great parent. So when it's our turn, we feel a bit lost.

Like we don't know how to do it. We don't know how to be a great parent. And we lack the confidence that we need to be a great parent. And so today we talk parenting with a married couple who has 10 kids. You heard that, right? They have 10 children. They also run a non-profit for parents called the messy family project.

The husband Mike, he comes from a broken home. And so he shares his story and how alcoholism really played a big role in the breakdown of his family's parents' marriage, which so many of us deal with and where you're gonna get out of this episode, by listening to it, you're gonna hear us discuss how his parents divorce affected him as a father and a husband.

He shares some of the fears that he had as a father and how he overcame them. Lots of good lessons that we can take and use. We discussed the question. Should you put your marriage. Or should you put your kids first? And we talk about why that's a super important question to ask and my guests get pretty vulnerable and they share how they've failed as parents and what they've learned because of it.

So we can learn from them and avoid making those mistakes in the first place. They also give a lot of great practical tips on parenting, especially for new parents out there. And finally, anyone out there who feels like they don't have what it takes to, to be a great parent, because maybe you didn't see that growing up.

They give a lot of encouragement and some advice on how to deal with that and how to overcome then how to be a great parent, very refreshing conversation, full of hope, lot a practical advice. And even if you're not a parent now, but you hope to be one day, you're gonna get a lot out of the episode. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation of broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 44 and today I speak with Mike and Alicia Hernan. They're the proud parents of 10 children ranging from eight to 25 years old.

They also lead the messy family project, a ministry seeking to encourage and empower parents in building vibrant families. Their podcast has grown to over 10,000 families listening every month. It's probably even more than that at this point. And they've been guests on shows such as the Catholic TV network EWTN.

Mike's actually hosted shows on EEW, TN, and he's appeared on Fox news, CNN and NPR, their children. They. Are the greatest joy in life. And as a family, they love to play music theater, playing board games and watching the Philadelphia Eagles, which my wife will be happy about. Cuz she is a Philly girl. She loves the Eagles and Mike and Alicia say that their home is always loud.

It's active and it's busy. And on a person I have to say they, they have a really beautiful family. I've been to their home. I met Alicia years ago after college, I went to Italy to teach English for two months. I lived over there for two months in Italy, just awesome experience. But in order to get that job, I had to submit a video of me teaching kids in English lesson.

And so Mike and Alicia were super generous and allowing me to work with their kids, uh, to make that video, uh, it was successful. I did get the job and it was just an awesome experience. So I have interacted with, with Mike Alicia and their kids and I just have. Beautiful family. They're everything that you would want them to be.

And they've built a really beautiful family, a really beautiful marriage. And so I'm excited for you to learn from them about parenting. You'll hear in the show also that Bridget and I, my wife are expecting a baby girl. So this is actually our second pregnancy. Our first pregnancy, we, we had a miscarriage was really difficult thing to go through, but now, uh, we've had a successful pregnancy.

Everything's looking good so far. So in two months, our baby girl will arrive. We cannot wait to meet her. I can't wait to meet her. Uh, it is super exciting. It's beautiful, but it's also kind of intimidating. This is a new chapter for us is gonna bring new challenges, but also, uh, you know, new joy, new meaning into our lives.

So please, uh, keep us in your prayers and I'm super excited to learn from this conversation with you because I'm a new dad. And so here's my conversation with Mike and Alicia,

Mike and Alicia. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Uh, it is great to be with you, Joey. Thanks for inviting us. Yeah. Thanks for having us, Mike. I, I didn't know that you were a child of divorce. I had, I knew about you cuz I went to Franciscan and uh, we have mutual friends, but I didn't know that you came from a broken home and apparently we both spoke at, uh, the same event recently.

And so I wanna. Start there. Uh, Mike, I'd love for, if you could just give us a summary of your story. I'm sure we could do a whole podcast episode on, on your story, but yeah. Give us a little bit of a background. Sure. Um, so I, I was raised in, um, in New York and I came from a, um, you know, my, my father was an, um, alcoholic, a recovering alcoholic and my parents got divorced, separated first.

And then, uh, ultimately got divorced, uh, in my early teen years. Uh, right. As I was getting into high school, I was thinking, gonna say New York, Irish Catholic alcoholic. Right. How many? That's just like every, so many people's story. Right. And, and I, for me, it was, um, you know, it was, it was a, a lull, uh, after my parents' divorce.

Yeah. Uh, there was some quiet in the home, but there was a lot of carnage, you know, I was always looking for, uh, peace. I think I was looking for some kind of escape and, and, uh, I actually started down the same path as my dad, uh, and early teen, I began drinking, but it wasn't until I, uh, kind of played my life forward for whatever reason, as a, as a teenager and saw I was heading down a path of destruction, it was grace and it was, yeah.

And I, I have to say, I think it was my mom's prayers, uh, that, that kind of shook me, uh, and woke me up to the fact that I was a mess and my life was a mess and through counseling, through prayer and, uh, just some good, good friends, uh, was able to really, you know, deal with that over, over the next number of years.

But for me, it was, it was a moment where I remember looking back and saying, this isn't what marriage is about. And this isn't what family life is about. Yeah. And I, I was looking from a very early teen years saying, um, what, what is marriage? What is family? And looking for models because I was, uh, You know, I, I, I, I knew what I had.

Wasn't the, the model, the perfect model. And I wanted something better. Mm-hmm so, anyway, I, I, I could go on, we actually did it recently, just did a whole podcast, um, on this, but I, I, um, I look back at that moment of my parents' divorce and although it had so much loss and so much pain and so much wounds that came from it, um, it also was a pivotal moment where I think we're doing.

Uh, you know, with our, our marriage and family, uh, effort that we're doing right now, the organization that we're leading I think was really birthed through that. And so out of my struggle and out of our, my woundedness, uh, it has, has changed and affected me as a husband and as a father, and has really brought me to a place where my faith is, is alive and real for me, because I, I needed something beyond my own ability to fix if you will.

And even though obviously this is Mike's story, not my story, but in walking with him these past 30 years, 30 plus years, you know, through the divorce, cuz he, his parents were divorced when he was 16. And then we met when he was 18. I think it's just important to note that there's several moments of conversion, you know, it's not like, oh, you know, in Mike's whole story, it's like the divorce was a pivotal moment.

And then there. Other pivotal moments after that, where God continued that process of healing and conversion, you know, it's not like we're not healed all at once. It's. You know, God gives us what we can handle at that time. And that's part of the beauty of walk, you know, the journey, the journey. It's not just like, oh great.

Now everything's perfect. I've arrived. You know, I thought it was a one and done thing. I didn't, would it be nice? It was like that, but sorry. No, absolutely. That, that was one of the unique things about this trauma is that it's like, in a way it's like an unending trauma, because most of the time our families don't come back together.

So it's so challenging, but Mike, I relate so much to what you said about just wanting the opposite of what you saw in your family. And I think that's so true for so many people listening right now. Like we desire something better. We don't want to go down the same path that our, our parents went down. We don't wanna repeat the mistakes that we saw in our family dis dysfunction there.

And so it's beautiful to see, like, you guys are so inspiring to see the beautiful family in the marriage that you've built and I'm sure. Yeah. It's been a journey and it's been I'm sure struggles along the way, but I'm curious. Mike specifically looking at you as a husband and a father. Uh, how have you seen your parents divorce affect you in those roles?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the reality is, is that there are probably still ways that I'm still uncovering and I think it's true. It's true for me. And it probably is true for others that I, I, I played forward. Right. You know, I, as a single man looking forward, I wasn't sure I could get married. I wasn't sure if I'd be a good dad, there was fears, there was apprehensions and, you know, counseling really played a role as well as for me a, um, really a spiritual father, uh, that, that stepped in, uh, to really walk me through that if you will, so that I could have a deeper level of confidence entering into marriage and in parent.

But ultimately I would say that it, it, it, the, the fears of am I gonna repeat the same mistakes, uh, of my parents, am I gonna have? And I did have anger issues, you know, and, and, and, uh, things that I had to work through as I became a dad, it was, it is almost as if you can only do so much looking at it, uh, from a distance.

And the real transformation in my life happened in the midst of being a husband and a father. Um, as opposed to, although I did have real fears and kind of concerns coming into this, I was so attracted to my wife. I, I abandoned all fear and abandoned, then no reason and jump in. And, and really that, that saved me, you know, because I, I, again, as, as a, as somebody who, you know, believes in, in God as father, um, I realized that I had a major impediment.

In relating to God as father, because of my own earthly father and wrestling with that, understanding that and getting to a place where I needed to be healed first as a son, before I could become a spouse. And then a father, if that makes sense to you, like my identity needed to be confirmed and affirmed that I was somebody's beloved son.

And as, uh, there's a moment. And, um, my, my eldest daughter, I, I have this moment where. I remember sitting there and I was, was holding this infant who did nothing for me, uh, who all that, that we, we fed her, we clothed her, we woke up with her in the middle of the night. And then as a thanks, she would throw up on us.

She would fill up her diaper, you know, this is, but, but I couldn't, I couldn't just understand how I could love her this much, you know, be it was almost overwhelming. And then I get to a place as I'm I'm sitting there and I hear this whisper of God to me. And now you have a glimpse of how much I love you.

Yeah. And for me it was, it was a, a pivotal moment. Again, I know everyone comes at a different standpoint, but if it was in that gift of me being a father of me, understanding. That I began to even receive love and to be healed and affirmed as a son. Um, and that was really a, a, a pivotal moment, you know, kind of as least Alicia was alluding to, but, you know, that was in the end of the journey.

And there was still lots of things to unpack because I, um, as I, I, I mentioned before, you know, I, I have lots of learned behavior. I have lots of wounds, but also learned behavior, uh, growing up that, of how to deal with what does discipline look like, or how does, you know, anger, uh, play into our lives? You know, and those, those things come out.

you know, all the junk of our past for sure comes out and. I needed to, to keep as a, an adult, uh, to recognize that the, the more that I was able to deal with, my divorce, the divorce that, uh, from my family, um, the, the, the loss that I had of a love of a mom and a dad of the formation, because there were both dealing with their own stuff.

Yeah. I needed to really process that so that I could be a better spouse and a better husband. I dunno if that, that makes sense, but it's just like, uh, there, there's such, there's such a, um, a pull for me to just dive in and feel like I, I should have known, uh, what it was, what it meant to be a father, but because of the divorce, it actually put me in a very humble place where I said, I have, I have no reference point.

And so I was really hungry looking for answers, but realizing I still don't have, uh, all that I need in some ways, but it, it, it kind of gave me the, uh, freedom. To say, okay, let's go find other mentors. Let's find others. And also required me in, in many ways to deal with the garbage that I had been given the, the, the feeling of being broken and having the humility and really the, uh, I guess looking back on it, the courage to admit I was weak, I was wounded and I needed help.

That was a, a big deal because that's not typical for men to want to admit that so that was, that was huge. Absolutely. And yeah, I can relate to so much of that. And you mentioned that, uh, yeah, just having a mentor, an older man who kind of could walk alongside you was so helpful. It was the same for me. Uh, it was actually a spiritual director that I had, uh, there at Franciscan and he was more than a spiritual director.

He was like I mentioned, uh, really just a mentor, able to help me guide me in different areas of life and just his affirmation, uh, of me as a man was just so, so helpful and so healing and yeah. So I, I can totally relate with that. And I think, uh, other people. Who who've walked that path too. They they've found it to be extremely helpful.

You mentioned fears that, that you experienced and you alluded to some of them. Uh, I'm curious, what, what were some of those fears about fatherhood specifically and what was most helpful to overcome those fears? I had to get to a play. Well, I'll do it by way of, I, I thought I was gonna follow in the same footsteps.

Like I felt so under the influence of my father, that I knew when I was a child, as an adult entering into marriage, you know, that, um, I thought I was crippled and I was, I was gonna be set off. And I had really very little, very minimal boundaries between my dad and me in healthy, uh, healthy relationship.

Right. So some word from him could set me off or this, or. and I had a, I had a spiritual, uh, so I'm, I'm not really answering your question, but I'm gonna tell you something but, but I had a, uh, you know, a, a, a, uh, uh, somebody, uh, spiritual father to me say, you really need to work. The, the only path through this is, is forgiveness, but not just a trite, not just a, oh, I forgive you.

It's okay. Move on. It was a know how you were wounded, know how you were hurt, know what, what, uh, was lost and, uh, and really itemize it if you will. Yeah. So as to then say, I forgive you for all of this, uh, and that. That was hard. That was painful. It was a long process if you will, with, with some counseling, uh, involve, this was before we were married.

Yeah. Before, when we were dating. Yeah. And being able to sit down and actually, and again, I don't recommend this for everybody, but I sat down with my dad and went through that. And although through AA, he has, you know, he has, he had, had kind of tried to make, uh, rested, amends and so forth. I don't think he understood from my perspective what had happened.

Um, and by saying that to him, it, it, it changed our relationship dramatically, but I, I ended it with, and, and I forgive you. And there was a release there that, that I felt like I was up until that moment. I was somewhat trapped under his. and, and it wasn't hit by his design, but it, but it was under the, kind of this, this old pattern, this old way of relating this old way of being a man.

I kind of made a, at that moment, made a break and said, you no longer have power over me. And I, I think it's important too, to note that he, when Mike had that conversation with his dad, he wasn't having that conversation to get something from his dad. Right. He didn't need his father to say I'm sorry, or anything, because he had already forgiven him.

He was ready, ready to rare. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, so that conversation was kind of like the, the ending or the culmination. It was kind of like the outward result of something inward that had already happened. And I think that that's why it worked because if he was going there saying, I'm gonna tell you this, and I want you to say, I'm sorry, then you're then, then the father still has that power over him, you know?

Right, right. But he was like, I don't. , you know, I just want you to know, I forgive you I'm I'm and that then he was free. Right. And, and, and just because, um, if I was looking for some great response, right. I, I, I, I, I caught my dad way off guard. Yeah. And he was not, not only not expecting it, it, it, it really, I think shocked him, uh, you know, the, the kind of, some of the detail, but it.

It was important for me, cuz then I actually began a new relationship with my dad. Right. And again, but he's not a bad person. No. And we actually have a really decent relationship now, but it, but it, but again, not everybody's can follow that path and I don't necessarily recommend it, but it, it, it, it brought me new level of freedom.

So that the fear that I, so one of the big fears was, am I gonna let this pass through me? That was probably my greatest fear is that I was gonna let the poison of either alcohol or divorce go from my father, from my parents' marriage through, uh, me to my future bride and children and substantially at that date, I would say that that fear was resolved.

That was probably the biggest thing that was like I a dark cloud. If you will, from teenage years, all the way through thinking my life is heading towards a, a cliff on some level. And that fear was removed, but then there's the, you know, there's still the, I still don't know how to really give myself away to my bride.

I, I still don't know how to deal with my anger and that's something I, that, that, that was probably the, one of the other fears was that I was just not gonna be capable and able to be a dad. Cause I didn't know how to do it. And I didn't have a father that was present. Um, again, I look back on it now and I see much more, so many years later, I see many more bright spots than I probably was willing to appreciate back then, because I think this is for a lot of adult children sure of divorce is that we block out memories, you know, and we have patch.

I have a patchy memory of, of a lot of my childhood. And, um, that, that I think is indicative. At least the way I take it is that it's a self defense mechanism. You know, that there was some, uh, you know, the trauma of divorce, the trauma of the, the tension in the household before that. And I, from my perspective in getting married, like we talked about children and what we wanted out of our family, we talk a lot about those things before we got engaged, you know, and then during engagement.

And I always felt in some ways, and this is gonna sound a little crazy, but that the divorce, you know, was a hidden blessing in a way, because it made Mike so aware of what he didn't know, you know? And I think that I that's true, see some couples and they just kind of like skip into marriage, being like, oh, it'll all work out.

You know, it'll be fine. Mike never had that attitude. I, that was an illusion. I never had that illusion. He never had that illusion. That it's all gonna be fine. Cause he knew, you know what, sometimes it's not fine. You know? And so he was very, very intentional about, I want my family to be different. I want my family to be different than the way I was raised.

And I knew that. From the time we were dating, you know, which is one of the things that was very attractive to me in looking for someone I wanted to have a family with is that I knew, even though he came from this broken background, I knew that he was gonna be so intentional and passionate about being an amazing husband and father.

And I saw him taking steps to learn how to do that in the families that he was with and the spiritual direction that he was having and, you know, and all of those kinds of things. So in a way, it was like, Hey, God can bring good out of everything. You know, he really can. And I feel like that's what he did for us.

It's amazing. Yeah, there was no room for complacency. You had to make a choice one way or the other. And that's beautiful. There was something you mentioned that was really important. I wanna highlight for everyone listening and, and this is just a healing principle across the board, and that is, uh, naming how you've been harmed, identifying your wounds and just really understanding them as if they were a physical disease.

Like in order for a doctor to treat some illness first, they have to diagnose it. They have to understand it. And so one counselor that, that we love, uh, Adam Young, he has the podcast, the place we find ourselves awesome podcast. He says that when it comes to experiencing healing, naming how you've been harmed is about 70% of the battle.

And so I just love what you said there and, uh, just the role that forgiveness played in your story too. That's something we haven't talked about a, a ton on this show. It's so important. I've experienced that freedom that you're talking about. And it's hard to explain that to people who haven't experienced it.

It's like, yeah, forgiveness is really good. It's really powerful. Like it's really freeing, but until you actually go through that, it's really difficult to understand that that's just what we've seen in working with, with young people who come from broken homes. Yeah. It, it, it really, and I know I said this already, but it just, they know, by, through forgiveness the, my past and never had power over me again, you know, again, there were, there were still moments that it was repeating different things or whatever, but, but as a whole, it broke the past power, you know, the, the, the, the wounds of the past, having that power over me.

And I, I, again, not that I was perfect from that moment on, but it was such a moment of grace. And I mean that in the fullest sense of that word, you know, that there was just a gift, um, that I could see with new eyes. Um, and I, I, I really think everybody needs it. And I think as, as awful as divorces and as the pains and the loss, um, that, that come from divorce, we do, we are gifted.

We, we have a super, you know, it's kinda like the radioactive spider, that, that bit us, you know, we have a deeper, um, uh, appreciation and hopefully a humility that we've gotta work on this. And I don't think anybody. Perfectly equipped for marriage or, or parenting. Right. Um, but we as adult children, I think as a general rule know, we don't have it.

Don't have what it takes and we are gonna look for it and we're gonna be hungry for it. I think the biggest mistake anybody can make and, and us, uh, as adult children, as well of divorce is to say with false confidence, oh, I'll, I'll, I'll be fine. And I don't have to work on this, or I can ignore the past and, uh, and just move on with my life.

And then everything will be fine. Um, that as long as we don't take that perspective, I really believe that there is a power to our humility and knowing that we need help, we need work, uh, in our lives. Yeah. Uh, so good. It's so easy to be arrogant and just like completely miss, like, like you said, if you don't have humility, you won't even identify the problem in the first place and therefore you can't heal, you can't grow.

And, uh, when it comes to forgiveness, the point you made about like reconciling with your dad, that's so beautiful. You were able to do that. And I love that you distinguish that some people can, some people can't and kind of what we say is like, that's the ideal, like if you can reconcile with one or both of your parents, that's awesome.

But if there's a, an unhealthy dynamic, a toxic relationship there where it wouldn't be good for you to do that, you can still forgive at a distance. And I love that. Um, you highlighted that and I think it's really important. And going to what you said about. Blocking out memories. I have a friend who is a psychologist and she's, uh, a trauma therapist.

She specializes in trauma therapy. She's just about done with her PhD. And one of the things she taught me was that our brains literally have a mechanism. Like, like you said, that they block out memories that we're not equipped to like emotionally handle. And so until we're in a space and we have people in our lives who can help us so kinda work through those things, we literally will forget those things in a way, because our brain's trying to protect us.

Oh, I love how our whole body, our whole kind of ecosystem, our human, um, uh, system really works to protect us, to build us up. Like, cause I have just met many. We have met many couple. Who it's only when they're in the kind of safety of their marriage and that they feel loved and supported, and they ha that their issues start coming out.

And it, it is, it is some people were surprised by it. You know, like, why is this, why am I feeling this way now? And I'm like, cuz you couldn't have dealt with it before you weren't at a place where your life and your situation was able to. And I have found that, you know, even though it, it, it was a substantial movement, um, in that forgiveness, there have been those, you know, and then I've talked about the, my, my eldest daughter, but there are many moments of both bringing me, uh, to a very humble place.

But also just with the safety of, of knowing that my wife really means it when she says she loves me, you know, that, that they're, and that meaning that word, even the definition of what I thought loved was to what it really is when there's somebody who's willing to do anything for you, that's willing to be weak and strong for you in, in and give of themselves in a way that.

I'd never known that somebody could like me with all of the junk, with all of secrets revealed and the li you know, all that stuff that maybe we stuff down. And, and, and, but that's when there's true freedom, that's when there's true life, uh, when you're in that kind of a relationship and those, you know, and maybe not all memories will come back, but, but that, there is, I never thought about that before.

And for me now, again, we've, we've been married a while. I'm actually remembering more of the good things that I kind of blocked out to talking with your sister. Yeah. And talking with my, yeah. Talking with siblings about that in their own healing journey. That's the other thing I think that is really beautiful is that when you have siblings who you can journey with, you know, that path appealing, you can journey with them.

So Mike did the, um, the life giving wounds retreat with Dan Meola, um, just recently. And we had never, he had never really thought. What I think is interesting is that I had seen about this retreat. And I brought up to Mike and he was kind of like, eh, I don't know, you know, I've been through counseling, I've been there before.

Right. And I was like, well, you should, you know, check it out. Maybe one of your siblings would do it. And so he and his sister went through it together and, and it was so good because I think it opened up his eyes, Mike's eyes to the continual healing that God still wanted to do in him and what he wanted to teach him.

But then really so beautiful is that his sister who's so many years older than you, 10 years older than you or so, you know, they were able to connect on a new level as well, you know, as they both shared about their memories and things, which were different, know, it was actually surprise. It surprised me actually.

Uh, Joey, just even talking to my siblings, the. I don't remember, or she remembered differently, or I remember differently cause Mike is on the younger end and they're all older than him. And so it, it was, it was, it was very, very interesting to see and the relationship that she has versus the relation, you know what I mean?

Like all of those nuances, it helped paint a fuller picture. Right. And, uh, you know, there's, there's just a beauty about being able to see our lives and even the, the wounds of the past and see it from new perspective. And I don't think if I, if we didn't go on that experience, that retreat together, um, that we would've had the opportunity.

To share about it. And although we had kind of mentioned it before, we were kind of, we all knew that everybody's done their own little path, if you will. Right. But it was a perfect excuse. Yeah. And it actually brought us closer together through that as well. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Love that. Yeah. And I, I think it's so helpful to have like a space to work through those things too.

Uh, and that's where I think Dan's retreats are, are great because, you know, it's hard to listen to a podcast. We've even gotten this feedback on this podcast. It's like some of the things we talk about they're heavy and you, you kind of just need to take a step back from day to day life. And so I love that you were able to do that with your sister.

My brother and I actually were, were talking the other day. And we were talking about the fact that healing is not just like this checklist of things to do. It's, it's relational on so many levels and. There's so many voids that we have in our hearts that we need people to love and affirm us, like you mentioned before, Mike.

And so it's really important. And that reminds me of some research they did at Harvard on happiness, that the book, the happiness advantage, it kind of summarizes their findings. And what they found was really the happiest people were the ones who lived close to their family and they had healthy, intimate relationship with their parents and siblings.

Wow. I would love to see this study. that's so interesting. Yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah. Great book. So the happiness advantage is the book and, uh, it's probably could have been half the size, but you know, it's, it's like really, really great research and they found some awesome things and, and yeah, that's basically what they found is like the strength of your social connections.

Your family relationships in particular really are the determining factor of your level. That makes sense though, but beautiful. I love. I wanna, uh, shift gears a little bit and put you guys on the spot. So I hope you're okay with that. I'm just wondering yeah. Where yeah. OK. Yeah, no, I I've listened to your podcast and I love how vulnerable you guys are.

I think there's, yeah, it teaches so much. It's so helpful. Yeah. So I'm curious, where have you failed as parents and what have you learned from those failures? So we can learn from you and how much time do you have? No, , , let's see three hours. Exactly. Right. Um, how have I failed as parent? I think, you know what, the one thing that I actually was just thinking about recently is how important it is to put ourselves in our children's shoes.

You know? And, and I, I was actually thinking about like an experiment, like what if you had, and I, what, if you, what if you had a person sitting in a. And when they went over to this area of the room, they were just, you know, ignored, oh, you know, whatever good things happened. But then they went into this area of the room and all of a sudden, some people started yelling at them and they, they touched something.

And then you get like a little shock, you know, but then if you go over here and then, then you go over again, but nothing happens. Like sometimes we have to realize that's what it's like for our kids. Especially like toddlers, who the whole world is new to them. And how many times have I exploded at my children or, or expected them to know something that I never told them, you know, or like, and I've eaten.

My one, one of my kids is very verbal and very, um, outgoing. And if I like will yell at him or whatever, like he's turned around and said to me, mom, you just told me to do this. Or I wasn't doing what you think I was doing. I was actually doing this other thing and I've had to go, oh, sorry. You know, like I was assuming you were doing something wrong and he is like, mom, you're assuming I'm doing no, I'm not.

You know? And, and it's just because he's really verbal. How many. Would I say that to another child who's maybe more quiet. We have 10 children. I don't know if we said that before. So if kids from all ages, you know, eight to 25 and grandchildren as well, but how many times would I maybe yell at another child who wouldn't call me out?

You know, the way that my son did who would just kind of like internalize that and that's not good, you know? And so I really think that one of the keys that to good parenting and one of the things that I know I am still I'm doing better at now that I'm older , but I didn't do as well. Definitely when I was younger is empathy and putting myself in their shoes, you know, like, okay, why they're grabbing these cookies off the table, whatever, why are they doing that?

You know, not that we always have to analyze everything that they do, but I think just to have that empathy of realizing, you know, what they don't understand, you know, they, they just don't know. They don't know. Okay. And that, that kind of helps you to have more patience. And more understanding and more of a teaching training attitude rather than you are driving me crazy.

You're so frustrating. You know, so I think that it kind of like overall, like parenting failure, things like that, like there's, there's definitely a lot of times that I have gone overboard and hurt my children's feelings, but I think the key is, is forgiveness. You know, like just as you know, Mike needing to forgive his dad, like I need to ask my children for forgiveness.

I need to say, I'm sorry that I yelled at you in that way, you know? Um, I'm sorry that I yelled at you for taking the car or whatever, but you're still grounded, you know, so just like kind of like recognizing that we do need to provide training and guidance to our children. But we can't make our emotion, a weapon that we wanna like wield over our kids.

But when you do, you can ask forgiveness of your children and, and then God can use that because that can be a powerful thing, you know, to ask forgiveness of your kids, parenting failed, Mike. Oh, I, yeah. Again, we, we, we could go into this for a while, but I, I kind of alluded to this earlier, but my anger was definitely something that was, I I'm I'm, uh, my parenting philosophy had been for many years, ignore, ignore explode.

Um, and so, you know, a child's doing something that is either we disagree with or, you know, is just annoying. I'll ignore it, I'll ignore it. And then I, when they kept pushing, when they kept, you know, particularly teenagers, they seemed to be experts at pushing all of my buttons. , uh, you know, they may have gotten a master's degree and I don't know what, but, but it was one of those times that I remember.

Uh, you know, handful of occasions where I just lose my cool, I lose my control. And, um, and I would yell at the kids and I would then impose very, uh, kind of, because I was so angry because the synapsis in my brains were refused together. I wasn't thinking clearly. And I impose, you know, really harsh, uh, punishments on them, which later at least she be like, well, maybe we shouldn't do that.

Or then she would give me the eye, like yeah. You know, and, and happily, she didn't correct me in front of the kids, but afterwards, like, I don't think that you handled that really. And it was, and I mean, actually do remember sometimes, um, especially when our oldest were teenager. Having to come and, and like, kind of like almost take your arm or touch you and being like, we need to walk away right now.

You know, like this is getting, this is too much. And that was definitely, yeah. You know, that was a, a major, major fail. And it also led me to some great guilt of sure. Am I repeat, you know, then that's when the fears, if you will. Yeah. Resurfaced of like, am I just repeating what I grew up with? Am I falling back into the default, uh, of that?

So anyway, that was that that's probably the biggest failure, um, yeah. In, in my parenting, um, controlling emotions. Yeah. But then there's like the little things like last night, um, it's seriously, this literally happened last night. Our son is sitting at the dinner table. I had made spinach, which I love some of the kids love he tries to get up and he is like, I was like, sit down and you need to finish that spin.

And he is like, oh mom, I'm like, I do not care. Put it on your fork and eat it. And the next thing I know, he threw up all over the table. I'm not kidding. I was mad at him. I was like, how damn you throw up? And Michael's like, he literally, he threw all over the table. Alicia, he threw up it's it's okay. It was, it wasn't that he just spit out the food.

He empty his stomach and he actually, Mike said, Alicia, there was no food on. Bla a minute ago. And it was like full of God, which is gross. I'm sorry. You can edit that out later. OK. Before that one. And, and I wish we would've learned this lesson because that's not the first time that's happened, not with this child, but with other, that actually has happened before once before, when I have forced a child to eat something that would be a great failure right there.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So do you want, keep it going no, no, no. This is great. Yeah, I'm sure we could do like a whole show. No, it's, it's incredible though. I love what you said, learning from your fellows. That's so important. Like we need to have the freedom to fail. Yeah. It's so key. I talk about this a lot, you know, with my team members, like in the business world, and if you, you need to have that freedom to fail because that's how you learn.

That's how you get better. That's how you get stronger. And what you said too, is like, you can repair the relationship. And I think Mike, for people like us, that's almost like this revolutionary idea. It's like, You can actually resolve conflict. You don't just like walk away and leave it undone. And like things just fall apart.

No, it's like, you can actually repair the relationship when something goes wrong. And for me that's been so encouraging is in my own marriage. Um, and especially looking forward as an parent. No, I agree with you. And it's one of those moments where, you know, the business world would say, you know, our entrepreneurs fail fast.

It's like, do any parents look at our failures and see that as, as a moment for guilt or shame or regret or. You know, or we just ignore it and move on, like you said, but the reality is is that every one of us is gonna fail own that, be comfortable with that, and then just learn from it and what we, one of our, our principles, uh, that we teach in, in our parenting, uh, you know, in our podcast and, and the, the, the conferences and retreats that we run is that it is not your job to, to turn your kids into perfect little, uh, saints.

Uh, it's their job to transform you. Meaning we get transformed through our parenting, into the best version of ourselves. It's by giving ourselves away that we're figuring out our faults, our mistakes, our, uh, lack of virtue or lack of self control or whatever it might be. So that through this we're learning, we're being shaped, we're being transformed.

All our rough edges are being shaved off. And it's a beautiful thing. When we take extreme ownership for our lives. Yeah, and that that's gonna, it's gonna change us, but it's also gonna be, if we, if we get that on the front end, you know, Joe, we learned this on the front end, you know, our, you know it, but it's like our failures as parents are all about how we are formed as parents.

Right? If that makes any sense. And I think sometimes, especially if you think that it's, it's my job to make this child into a Saint, then if something goes wrong, well, they're just not becoming a Saint it's, you're focused on the child on, on them. It's like, no in wait back up, time out, you need to be working on you.

The only person that you can change is yourself, you know, and that includes your children. Yes. You're there to form them and guide them and model for them and, you know, discipline and give that guidance to them. But the changing has to be up to them and, and we need to look at ourselves and. How, how can I love them better?

How can what's what is in me that is causing this, you know, whatever this frustration that's rising up in me, because they're just a kid, like they don't know, they're not waking up in the morning saying, oh, how can I annoy mom today? You know, like, how can I drive crazy guarantee? They are not thinking that at all.

They're thinking, you know, just life love. I want mommy to love me. I want daddy love me, you know? And when we get angry with them and we get emotional about their mistakes, we need to look at ourselves and say, okay, what's going on here? Like what's going on in, in us and not look at ourselves as failures, but we're still learning too, you know?

And God's trying to refine us, like Mike was saying, that's right, shave off those rub edges. Bring us to our knees and make us aware of our need for God's mercy. And that is not a bad thing. If children make you more aware of God's mercy, that's, that's a good place to be. that? No, that's so refreshing to what you said.

It's like, this is part of the process, like expect it. And I think that's so hopeful for anyone listening right now who maybe feels like they're, uh, you know, not able to be a good parent. It's like, yeah, you're gonna fail, but that's okay. Like you can learn from it. You can move forward. And, and so many good pieces of advice that you guys said.

And Mike, I appreciate that, you know, telling the, the advice that you gave me to just expect that and, and really prepare for it, because I think so often maybe as men, we have more of this tendency, it's easy to thrive maybe in one area of our lives. Maybe like you said, being humble in business and learning to fail fast, but.

You apply it to your marriage and it's like, you're pathetic at it. I know I've experienced that in my own life. Like I'm good at something in one area and then the other is not. So I, I appreciate that. And I wanna go back to something you said too, just about anger. Um, I've personally dealt with this too, especially right after my parents separated, when I was 11, I had all sorts of anger issues and had to go to anger management school.

Basically. It was very humbling. Um, but yeah, I think so many men deal with this and I think it, it points a bigger issue of just letting your emotions control your actions and whether that's in marriage and business and friendship or, or in parenting. And so yeah, the ability to detach, to take ownership of your actions and when you do mess up, just own it and, and make it better.

Yeah, man, there's so much I wanna say right now, you guys are fantastic. Alicia, just back to what you said. Putting yourself in your kids' shoes. One of the things kind of to add to that, that I've noticed with parents just kind of observing my own parents and then other parents around me is that I, I think we kind of forget what it was like to be kids.

Like, I, I try to remind myself that sometimes, like, what did I think and feel when I was like that age? And, uh, the more I've done that the more I've realized like, yeah, like there should be more grace, a hundred percent. And I do, I actually , I, a lot of times I very reflexively think about my childhood and think about what did my parents do in this situation.

And I think that that is a disadvantage, um, for children of divorce, if you don't have any memory of your dad being there, how would my dad handle this? Or your mom being there? How would my mom handle this? I don't know. I have nothing, you know, but I really do think about that. A lot of remember. Oh, well, how was he kid?

What would my mom do? You know? And I just almost subconsciously, you know, I think that right. And it, and it's good too, to remember your own childhood. And if that's hard to do, I could see how that would be, you know, a difficulty. No, for sure. I want to, uh, get your advice. On, uh, a bunch of different scenarios.

I'm gonna throw these at you. We can do kind of a back and forth soundbite thing here, uh, cuz I'm sure we could talk about each of these for forever. Um, and I have to admit little confession, a little bit of a selfish interview because, uh, my wife and I are expecting a baby. Uh, she'll be in about two months and we're so excited.

Yeah. Thank you. And yeah, so just trying to, you know, we're reading and trying to learn and listening to your podcast and all that and it's been fantastic. Thank you for that. Um, so yeah, I just wanna go through just series of questions and if you would give us your advice and uh, yeah, I guess the first thing is like as a new parent, if you could go back in time to yourself as a new parent, uh, and give some advice, uh, yeah.

What are a couple things that you'd say main points and I'm sure this might echo some of the things you said before, but what the first, the first thing that comes to mind. Chill out uh, yeah, we we're, as, as parents, we, we have to recognize we're playing a long game. It's it's not a sprint. It really is a long race and that there are gonna be cycles and seasons, uh, you know, early on you may get no sleep with a newborn, you know, and, and, and infant, uh, child, uh, or there's gonna be times when you have maybe one or two little kids that are just draining you and you're in the survival zone.

Mm-hmm, , they're seasons of life. And, um, and we need to have a longer perspective this isn't, you're not gonna stay in that zone forever. Um, but which is, is good and bad, right? Meaning sometimes you'll get through it quickly, but. Um, there are good moments, which, you know, just to really appreciate and, and soak up those moments because, you know, we have two, uh, married children now and, um, you know, three others who are essentially out, uh, out of the house, they do kids do grow up so fast.

So, so one don't get stressed. I know it doesn't feel like it, but they do but, and I never believed anybody, uh, who told me that . Um, but I would, I would say that that, that don't sweat, the small stuff have a bigger, longer term perspective. Um, and really kind of embrace, uh, each of those moments cuz they, you, for that child, you only have, you know, you have a limited amount of time and it's, and it's a gift.

Right. Uh, and to really embrace that, I, I felt like I kind of felt like I was looking for the right answer to everything. Yeah. Like I wanted to just do it. Right. I wanted to find to be the perfect there. Different. Yeah, exactly. I wanted to find like that perfect method. And I think a lot of people do that today.

Well, studies showed this, so this is what I should do. But the problem is that you can find studies that absolutely contradict each other about the way that you should raise an infant as far as like sleep schedules and feeding and you know, how you respond to them and you can find studies that are all over the place.

But what you really need to do is just work with unity, with your spouse on what is the best for you as a couple, what is the best thing for your family? And don't worry, don't worry about. doing it perfectly. It's okay. Like you were saying before, it's okay to make mistakes. You're going to make mistakes.

You're gonna try something to get them to go to sleep and it's not gonna work. And that's okay. That's totally fine. You can try something else or maybe you just need to try what you were doing a little bit longer. And so I feel like for me, like what I would tell myself, you know, if I was talking to myself as a new mom, say, don't worry about getting it all right.

And also just enjoy your children more. That's part of the great thing about being a grandparent now is that can just enjoy our grandchildren. And I have to say that even our younger children, um, like numbers eight, nine, and 10, I feel like we still. Take more time to just enjoy them. Yeah. And them just play games, games, hang out and just like laugh at them and just realize that, you know what I mean?

Like just kind of relax a little bit and not worry about, well, I have to hurry up and teach them all these things, because this is the important point to teach this blah, blah, blah. You know, it's okay. It's okay. Like it is it, your childhood does go fast, but it's also, you have time to teach them things little by little and a lot of things, times you are modeling, you're modeling for them, the way that you live your life is more important than anything you say, or any discipline plan that you have or anything like that.

Loving them and modeling God's love for them. Honestly, I really do think is the most important thing. I think that's more important. Then being really strict and firm on certain rules or having the perfect rules of the perfect system. Sorry, one, one thing that, that I, as long as you don't contradict me, yes.

You, everything you said was perfect. There you go. Perfect. Um, so if you learn this after 27 years, it's about priorities man, prior battles wisely. Uh, no. So, so, but I, I think I, I don't, I think now I appreciate it more than I did back then. The importance of our marriage. Yeah. Um, a as much as I loved my wife and we got, well, I think I took things for granted, meaning we, we were good.

We were both good people. We were trying to deal with our own stuff. And we were collaborating in this great work of raising these kids. And I would probably look back and. get a better habit of date nights. Yeah. Uh, on a regular basis basis for sure. Uh, going out together. Um, I think that we, early on, we were very good about that and then kids just make it more difficult, but I think they make everything more difficult but I think we, I, I gave up or settled too quickly and then I accepted jobs, um, that had me traveling a lot for work and I didn't compensate, you know, by saying, okay, now that I'm physically not home, how am I gonna maintain my emotional intimacy, uh, with my wife when we're physically not present?

Um, I, I think that looking back I've, you know, that would be, you know, some of the things that I, I think is strong, We're also seeing the fruit, you know, again, I think we have a great marriage, but it's like not taking any of that for granted and, and really developing early on good habits of yeah. Date nights and communication and so forth because we're seeing some, um, couples now come to us, struggling with even their own kids who now have left.

The faith are not following in their values. And one of the things that, that I, a common theme, common, the common theme was they had some major challenges in their marriages. And I look at that and I think that has a bigger influence than we may realize. Yeah. Uh, on our kids, like sleeping in separate bedrooms, you know, for years and years, that's, that's gonna affect your children, you know, and that's gonna affect the way that they see marriage and that they.

God and the faith and, and all of that. So, and, and anyway, it's important to work on your marriage and I'm sorry, I know you, I'm gonna just throw this out, just cause I've seen a couple of people for adult children of divorce, who, because they don't wanna repeat. What happened to them as a child, they often pour themselves out into their kids and they pour themselves into forming and loving their children that they actually unintentionally neglect their neglect, their marriage.

Yeah. And, um, and, and by doing that, you're actually. Undercutting the way that you're loving your kids and forming your kids, cuz the, the, um, the number one thing is if you wanna be a great parent, you need to be an even more amazing spouse. And I, I think we sometimes get things disordered, um, in our parenting.

Yeah. So anyway, sorry. I, I probably have other stuff you wanted rapid fire no, no, no, this is fantastic. And yeah, I'd like to stay there for a second. I think you guys covered that topic well, but I just wanna make sure everyone understands what we're saying here. Uh, there's a very big difference between a family that puts the children first and a family that puts the marriage first parents who put the kids first parents who put the marriage first.

And I actually had. Kinda debate with my mom recently. She very much so took the approach that the kids come first. And, uh, and I just wholeheartedly disagree with that. I agree with what you guys are saying. I've heard you say it on your podcast. It's so important to put your marriage first and obviously like you can't neglect your kids.

Like you need to feed them and take care of them. Um, there's a balancer of course, but, but I, I do believe in kind of the marriage centered family. Um, yeah. Is there anything else you'd like to add to that for someone who maybe isn't sure why that's so important? The, I just think about it. What were you like Mike was saying about your identity first as a son or a daughter, right?

That's that's how we start out. We all start out as children. Well then that's the next thing that happens or that should happen in the order of relationships you get married, like you get married first, then you have children or you need another person. You need that relationship. Your children come from.

Your relationship. That's where they come from. Right. And they don't, they don't, the children don't come first. And then, I mean, it's ridiculous, right? If you just even think about it naturally in the order of creation, they can. But then if you think about the order of grace, there is no, you know, as Catholics, we believe that marriage is a sacrament.

Well what's is there a sacrament of motherhood or is there a sacrament of fatherhood? No, there isn't. It's the sacrament of matrimony. That's where you get the grace to be a parent. You get the grace to be a parent from the sacrament of Mamo and you can't be, you cannot love your child. You cannot, we, first of all, only God can satisfy your longing of their heart.

But even me as their mother, I can't give them naturally everything they need in relationship. They not only do they need their father. but they also need our couple love, right? Our love together as a couple, that child needs that. And which is again, one of the tragedy of divorces. Is that still? Yes. Your father still loves you.

Your mother may still love you, but you lost their couple love and that's a security and a, and a place right. Of safety for kids, kids. I mean, you know, it's kinda like if you just think about. Uh, kind of psychological development of, or civilization development. Like you can't establish yourself, you can't have civilizations when they're, they're moving from place to place and they're afraid of enemies attacking or they've got food, right?

Mm-hmm but it's like, but when you are able to create a marriage centered family, you create a stabilizing force for your kids to be at peace, to be at a place where they can reveal themselves. And again, it's we? Yes, we need, um, a mom and a dad. Every child has a right to a mom and a dad to love them, but they need that extra protection, not extra.

That protection is necessary for their development and growth to have the love of that couple. One of the greatest parenting, um, approaches that you'll ever have comes from the unity of yeah. Your, of the spouses. And if you don't have that kind of deep, uh, loving intimacy, your kids, aren't gonna understand what true love is.

Cuz you're the first model of what real love is what real sacrifice mm-hmm means about how to give themselves away. The lessons that you teach simply by showing up and loving your spouse will leave lasting lasting memories. We, we had this, this, uh, priest that we interviewed a little while back and his, um, when we asked him, how did he, um, you know, how did he maintain his faith and so forth?

The first thing he turned to was talking about his parents and his grandparents love for one another more than about God or experience it was that, that they passed on this deep love for each other. Yeah. And that was how he found his vocation to give himself away. And so we need to give that for our kids'.

A true witness of what, and again, as Christians, we believe that Christ said, um, marriage is the model of how Christ, how God loves his people. Mm-hmm and how Christ loves the church. And so that's an image that they need to learn from. We need that to be the foundation of their physical, spiritual, emotional, and psychological development is that deep abiding love that no one person can do on their own.

And I really think too, that it's a it's disordered it's it sends a disordered message because when you have two adults looking at a child and they, this child is the center of their universe, that's a lot of pressure for a kid. You know, like most kids don't wanna be the center of their parents' universe.

They're like, yeah, I'm just growing up. Can you, you don't have a life of your ugly, you know, like I feel like it really is. It's too much. And it sends this message to their child that our life revolves around you. Our life does not revolve around our children. My life does not revolve around. That's creating a selfish child.

Exactly. My life has God in the center. And then our marriage with God, you know, intertwined is in the center of our family. And then our kids know that, and our kids are part of a community that is our family. They are participating members, not the focus of they are the participating members, which in this community.

And like, my dad would always say to us, he would like you kids. You're gonna be outta the house in 18 years. I'm living with this woman till the end of my life. You know, he was more important as far as the priority of relationships within the home. Their marriage was first. Yeah. You know, and we all knew that and it, and it gave us a, a sense of a real stability.

That's right. That's exactly so good. Yeah. And two things stuck out to me in what you guys said, one, just that the power of modeling, I, I think you guys have said this on your show. I've heard other people say it too. How you know more is, is caught than taught. And that's basically what you said before Alicia.

And, and I think that's so key because you know, Mike, you teach your boys. What it's like to be a man, how to treat a woman just by your presence, your example, the way you live your life and Alicia, the same for you and your girls. And so the them watching and seeing, okay, this is how you love. It's so important.

I think that's why we struggle so much in our relationships as people come from broken families, because we just didn't see a good model of that. And that's what the research shows. And the, the second thing is just the security. You guys mentioned that just the safety and security of the kids. So there's a couple that I really look up to.

They're just this beautiful marriage, great marriage. And I've been blessed to spend time with them. And they've really healed kind of this broken idea that I have of marriage. And, uh, they told me a story. Uh, on another episode we did with. They said that, uh, uh, Joe, the, the guy, his, his wife's name is, uh, Maria.

Uh, they were in the kitchen and he just like grabbed her and was kind of dancing with her and he kissed her. And, uh, his daughter, one of his daughters was just like standing there, just like soaking it all in just watching this. And, uh, he said, he looked down at her and he just saw this just pure joy in her face and just this sense of contentment and security.

And so there's more than maybe words can even express how putting your marriage through. So you exactly the situation you're describing. We have seen that many times with our children as well. It's true. As well as sometimes them going, uh, yeah. Are you kissing? But then we also seen particularly younger kids.

We were at Alicia was just talking about this the other day, about how, uh, particularly little guys, when we hugged. They'll like try to pull us in so that it's both of us, like she's getting like this, this group hug from mom and dad, you know, and there's this couple love that she wants. Like, I feel like that's the image is that, you know, I, oh, I love mommy.

Oh, but I want daddy in here too, you know? And it's like, that's the, that's the powerful symbol. Because again, at the end of the day, part of our hope for our children is that they are launched out into the world as you know, generous, kind, loving thinking about others first, all of these things that we want, well, how do we start that?

If, if they don't recognize that they're part of a, a community of love, right? And that they are the center, but that they are members of there, they are born in love for love and, and with love. Right. So that, that they then can be launched out, uh, with them. But without that stability. Without that marriage, uh, it really is.

It hurts. And again, that's what we're recognizing, right? As adult children of divorce, we're recognizing that we have had a wound that we've had a crippling. So the antidote for that yeah. Is not to simply protect ourselves and pour ourselves into our kids. It's the first pour ourselves into our marriage so that we together can form these kids and, and really change our family history, change the legacy that we have, uh, flowing out from us that our kids get something that we didn't get the love of both a mom and a dad, that marriage that is such a powerful force for kids.

Hmm, love it. Yeah. And it's, it's just so foundational when that foundation is shaken, it affects everything. And when it's strong, it affects everything. So good. I wanted to ask about, uh, when it comes to making decisions, like, obviously you make a lot of decisions as parents. Uh, what, what's your general advice from making decisions, especially when maybe you and your spouse don't see things at eye, you, you maybe disagree, uh, on something.

How, how do you handle that situation? Here's what I want parents to remember. It's better to be wrong together than right alone. Okay. you heard that, right? so we now of course, we're not talking about like moral, evil or whatever, but it's better for you to make a United decision that may not be like the absolute perfect plan or, you know, whatever, but it's something that you can both agree on rather than one of you being like, I know this is the right way and I'm just gonna go on and do it by myself.

Um, because your unity, the unity between mom and dad, that is the best parenting method then you could possibly have. And, you know, we talk about, we kind of already talked about this and the fact that, that, um, couple love or that the way we were just describing it to another couples we were talking to is like synergy, right?

So what's synergy in the business world. It's look all together. We can come up with a better idea than any one of us could by ourselves or than any one of us could come up with by compromising synergy is not compromising. It's not like, okay, well you wanted two and I wanted one. So we'll do one and a half.

No. Synergy is like, is us putting everything it's standing shoulder to shoulder with your that's gonna spouse. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Standing shoulder to shoulder with your spouse, looking at this problem, looking at an issue and saying, how can we do this together? Because we're on the same page. We're on the same team.

Yeah. I just, but out here is the problem just to add to that. I, I really think that too many times we try to settle and we try to compromise. And, and again, there is a place for compromising, you know, or we just gotta go along for the, for peace at any price. Right. You know, like I don't argue anymore, so I'm just gotta let it go.

And, and sometimes we do just need to say, Hey, it's not that big of a deal to me. Right. Let's let it. I'm not gonna worry about it because I think sometimes we make things a bigger deal than they really need to be. Um, sometimes there are decisions that. It really doesn't matter to me, but I'm fighting for the principle of it.

Like, well, she won 10 of the arguments. I should have one of mine. That's not what it's about. You know, in marriage, it's about we're all in a hundred percent, a hundred percent, not 50 50. I only, I I'll give her some of the decisions. I'll take some of the decisions. That's not what a marriage makes. Yeah.

What we are talking about is the two become one, which is not an easy process, uh, that the two of you are forming a more United approach, but it comes when we, again, we talked about this a little bit earlier, but, and as Alicia mentioned already, it's business world. We want to be able to make a, a unified plan for our organization to succeed.

And in order to do that, we, as Alicia said, need to sh stand shoulder, shoulder, and look at the situation, the decision that's before. And not look at our petty counting the costs or who has done this, or how many times have we gone to your family or my family or, or whatever, whatever the decision might be.

It's looking at the situation and saying what's in our best interest for us as a couple and us as a family. And not settling. And sometimes what we have done, um, is take a step back from the, the practical, uh, applications and look back at the deeper reasons why. Right. Uh, which is a whole other pro we have this whole thing.

I think you may have heard of us talk about this on the podcast, but. A family board meeting where you get together and get unity on some of the biggest stuff in your life so that you can have a plan when the little things come up, you've already got a process. You already got some of the big things decided which help make some of the smaller decisions easier.

Right. Uh, as you go along. So good. Thank you guys so much. If people wanna learn more and, and get your advice on further parenting topics. Yeah. We'd love to have them join us@messyfamilyproject.org. Our website, um, has we have a little over 150, uh, podcast episodes. So whether it's in iTunes or Spotify or wherever you get your podcast, we're, we're, uh, streaming there.

Um, as well as we have, uh, online, uh, guides and resources, free conversation starters, we have a discipline guide that has proven to be very popular for people. So you can go and check that out if you have discipline questions. And we've just recently started a, uh, some courses in other events that we're doing as well on, uh, for formation of, of parents.

So it's all on the website. Awesome. We'll link to those in the show notes. Thank you guys so much for, for being here. And I just wanna give you the last word. What encouragement would you give to someone who comes from a broken home who maybe feels unable to be a good parent? They feel like, I don't think I have what it takes.

Uh, what encouragement. I, I don't know why God has entrusted with you a child, but he has, and you are perfectly designed. That's right. Uh, to be a parent for this child. That's right. The greatest gift you can give your child, um, is first loving their mom or dad loving your spouse, and then making sure you're always working on yourself, taking extreme ownership because the, um, the, those who are wounded, who.

Deal with their wounds will continue to wound and hurt others. The more that we can invest in freeing ourself up by, by healing and transformation, um, we will then be the best parents our kids could ever want because this, this whole idea of parenting is both for them. And for us, it's a path where we're giving ourselves away and learning the path of freedom.

The more genuine we are, um, with our kids and giving them the fullest love, we can, that's gonna set them up for great success and don't sweat the fact that you're not perfect. No, one's perfect. You're not alone. And everybody, uh, fails. Everyone has, uh, stumbles along the way. No one is, is equipped to fully be the best parent.

We just have to make sure we show up with our level best in dealing with our past. And, and, and yeah, and just know that God is, God is bigger than everything, you know, that's right. There's no, there's no problem that he can handle.

I could have talked with them forever. So many great things, so many great practical tips that they gave. But one big takeaway for, for new parents is that you don't have to be perfect. Like Mike and Alicia said, you will make mistakes. You don't have to get everything right. And that's okay. Just, just do your best.

Keep learning, keep growing, keep getting better, but you don't have to be perfect. And there, I think there's so much freedom in that. And it's a good reminder. And if you want more from Mike and Alicia, if you want more of their great content, their guidance, go ahead and listen to the messy family podcast.

Wherever you listen to podcasts again, that's the messy family podcast and on their show, if you wanna hear Mike's full story, listen to episode 1 56, again, that's episode 1 56 on the messy family. Podcast. I recommend starting, uh, with that show, but of course, feel free to dive in wherever you'd like. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 44.

Thank you so much for listen. And if this has been useful, I invite you to subscribe and to share this podcast with someone, you know, who could really use it, who would be useful for always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#043: Do You Feel Abandoned by God? | Fr. John Paul Mary

If you’re from a broken family, you likely struggle extra in your relationship with God. There are so many barriers people like us have to overcome. One barrier is feeling abandoned by God.

In this episode, a Catholic priest who is a child of divorce joins us to discuss:

• How to overcome common barriers people like us face in our spiritual lives

• What to do if you feel abandoned by God

• How father and mother wounds impact our relationship with God

• What to do if you feel far from God and want nothing to do with him

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Links & Resources

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• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Episode 9: A Retreat for Adult Children of Divorce | Dr. Daniel Meola, PhD

• Website: Life-Giving Wounds

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• Novena to Mary Undoer of Knots

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Today, we dive into healing on a spiritual level, healing your relationship with God because people like us, people come from broken homes, tend to struggle in our relationship with God. There's just numerous barriers that we have to overcome to have a relationship with God and numerous things in our lives that make it difficult to have that relationship with God.

And we really haven't talked about this much on this show. At least not specifically in an entire episode, some of our guests have brought it up here or there, but we wanted to talk about healing, your relationship with God. Now we know that you maybe don't believe in God. We have listeners who come from all sorts of backgrounds.

And so if that's you, if you don't believe in God, if you're just not ready for this whole God stuff, we totally respect that. And you're totally welcome here. Right? We don't just exist to serve religious people. We exist to serve you. And so we're so happy that you're here, but my challenge for you is this don't shut this off.

Give it a shot. Just listen to it. You don't have to do anything else. Just listen to it. And if this is uncomfortable for you, if it's a sensitive topic, just listen, J just hear it out. I think you're gonna get something out of it. Maybe that you don't expect. And the truth is that we can't not talk about this stuff.

We have to talk about the deep and important things in life. And this is certainly one of them. And so give this a shot and what you're gonna hear in this episode, we talk about some common barriers that people like us face in our spiritual life, and some tips on how to overcome them. We talk about what to do.

If you feel like God has abandoned you, like how do you handle that? What do you do about that? How do you overcome that barrier touch on perfectionism? Like how often we feel like we need to be perfect in order to have a relationship with God in order to earn God's love. We also hit on father wounds and mother wounds and how they impact our relationship with God.

And then what to do. If you feel far from God, maybe you just don't want anything to do with God, or you feel like God, maybe doesn't want anything to do with you. So lots of good stuff, some deep stuff, but equally important stuff. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 43. And today my guest is father John Paul, Mary that's, right. It's a priest.

We have a priest on the show. It's the first time we've ever done that. And he was born and raised in new freedom, Pennsylvania. He earned a, an associate's degree in engineering from DeVry Institute of technology. Uh, he went to seminary shortly after his graduation, where during his time there, he visited the Franciscan missionaries of the eternal word, a, a religious order.

And after graduating from seminary, he actually entered that religious order. He then completed his theological studies at Mount St. Mary's seminary and earned a masters in divinity. He was ordained a priest in 2013. And father now serves as the employee chaplain for E WTN, the eternal word. Television network.

It's basically a Catholic TV network and you're gonna hear him mention it, but we actually met years ago in Israel. And he'll, he'll talk about it a little bit more, but it's just a pleasure to have him on we reconnected recently. And so I'm really glad to share this conversation with you between me and father,

John Paul, welcome to the show. It's great to be here, Joey. I love the fact that you're on the show because like I um, mentioned in the intro, we haven't really tackled this topic specifically in a podcast episode, it's come up here or there, but for so many people who come from broken families, there are so many barriers, so many things that prevent them from having a relationship with God or at least make it harder.

Hmm. And so I'm really excited to dive into this topic with you, but I wanna start a little bit with your story. How old were you when your parents divorced? I was 24 years old. I had just started college seminary at the Pontifical college. Joseph phum in Columbus, Ohio. So I wasn't young, uh, in the terms of like being below teenage years or even teenage years, I was 24 years old after my parents had been married for 25 years.

Wow. So this was not something that happened right? Outta the gate. You, yeah. They had been married for years and years. Yeah. As much as you're comfortable saying, uh, how did you deal with the breakdown of their marriage? The breakdown of your family, the divorce, and Joey is very hard. Just like anyone. I think a lot of people say that, you know, there's, um, kind of the false phrase that children are resilient, that children will somehow get over it, that they need to let their parents move on with their life.

And that, you know, somehow the children will, no matter what age I think is this phrase is used more with younger children. I. Than with adults mm-hmm , but I guess in my case, like I was 24 and, uh, I can honestly say that it was earth shattering. Uh, it was hard, very hard. Uh, I didn't think it would be as difficult as, uh, it was, I was away at school, uh, 400 miles away from home mm-hmm and first, before I entered a seminary, it, it, it really happened when I entered the seminary, the actual separation and divorced when I entered college seminary, but it had been happening, you know, the breakdown for years.

My dad's an alcoholic and he's, again, I, I don't wanna at all demonize my father in any way. I love my father. I think my father is a good man, but you know, at the same time, you know, I, I guess we were gonna more or less focus on, you know, myself right on how I dealt with this myself. Mm-hmm it was very hard.

I, um, felt helpless. Um, I felt like, I think you kind of enter into the mindset of, um, I wish I could be there if I was there, then maybe they wouldn't have broken up. kind of all the false things that, um, adult children of divorce, um, think about, or, or just kind of their minds are consumed about if, if I would've been there then yeah.

Like I said, things would've been a little bit different and that's not the case. I think, you know, one of the things that I've learned through the years in, um, in dealing in going to Alanon, which is, uh, the 12 steps for friends and family members of alcoholics mm-hmm, . I've learned that, uh, the three CS you didn't cause it you're not the cure and you can't control it.

Wow. I learned that 20 years ago, but now, I mean, even still 20 years plus later, I still am trying to assimilate and embody those principles because you know, sometimes the, the old Demonn the old wounds that we deal with, uh, surface, uh, from this wound. One of the things that I think for me, I think maybe some of your viewers might identify with is I started having panic attacks.

Hmm. Yeah. In college and Joey never in my life, did I have any form of anxiety? I was pretty active growing up sports and I was in pretty good shape. I never had any type of anxiety. I had some, probably some social fears, maybe. Um, I was a little bit shy but I, I really had no, no forms of anxiety or anything like that growing up.

And it was like a switch that went on. If, if I can use that type of, uh, uh, analogy, it was like a switch went on when my parents, uh, divorced in like a wreckage in my, in my own life that I started having panic attacks when I was in seminary. And so I had to kind of deal with that at the same time while I was trying to discern mm-hmm, my life choice.

And, and also like where God was calling me. To be a priest and to discern and enter into formation. I was entering and also dealing with my parents' marriage falling apart and also dealing with, gosh, how do I navigate the panic and anxiety and all this stuff and, and, and what, everything that that brings into one's life.

Absolutely so many people listening right now can relate to you. I know I can. Mm-hmm uh, I dealt with anxiety on different levels. I know people close to me who specifically dealt with like O C D, which of course is very much so related to anxiety. And so, yeah. Thank you for being so vulnerable. I can't imagine how, you know, scary those panic attacks must have been.

I've been with people when they're having panic attacks and there's not a pretty thing for any of you listening. Who've never seen that. It's not pretty. It is scary. And so father thank you for, for being so vulnerable. And one of the things going back to what you mentioned about your dad, mm-hmm, , I've never met a parent who wanted to harm their child.

No, absolutely. You know, by getting divorced, our parents would typically jump in front of a bullet for us, jump in front of a train, whatever they needed to, to protect us. I think often what happens is that they don't quite understand or know. What happened? So I just wanna put that out there for any parents listening right now.

Um, as you've heard me say before, we are not here to demonize you. In fact, one of the things that we wanna do is we wanna help heal the relationship between the parents and the child. And the only way we can do that is by speaking the truth and saying, this is harmful, this is damaging. And then we can move forward from there.

Amen jelly. I look, I often look at this photo album. My mom put together for me of my dad and myself, and there's many pictures there. And there's a picture of my dad holding me after coming home from the hospital. There there's so many blessed memories that I have compared to the, the fallout of the divorce.

So I try and focus on, on those memories that I have when, when your mind is just going crazy, sometimes a about the, the fallout from, uh, the divorce. Yeah, no, that's a beautiful thing. And I. Can relate on that level too. Like, I love my parents. I know you would say the exact same thing. Like I love them dearly.

I worry about them. I worried about them when I was 11 years old. When they separated, I was had a lot of anger toward them. But I also just worried about them cuz I cared about them. I loved them. And so, uh, I know that feeling you mentioned too, being away and feeling helpless. I, anyone who knows the more details of my story, my parents separated when I was 11.

Uh, they got back together actually a year and a half later. And so it was still, you know, traumatizing and difficult and their marriage was still broken, but they were together, which was good. And that continued on for another 10 years. And so I was away at college first semester away. And uh, when I got the call that my parents had began a divorce and so same things went through my mind as well.

I thought, man, if I was only there, like I could do something, I could prevent this from happening. And so felt helpless, blamed myself and so on. So you're not alone there. I know people listening right now feel the exact same. There's so many of us who feel this way. So thanks again for, for your vulnerability.

I wanna switch gears a little bit and talk about your relationship with God. I'm curious. What were the effects of your parents' broken marriage on your relationship with God, Joey? I think that that's a question that is still 20 years later unraveling. It's not something. I think that all, when my parents divorced that all of a sudden that I had kind of written down these, these points, um, these bullet points and kind of a perfect outline of these, this is what I'm feeling, Joey.

I I've. Going through counseling in seminary, uh, both seminaries that I was at, um, I'm going through, you know, some kind of formal counseling to deal with, uh, the hurt, the pain of, um, my parents' divorce. And I think so many on so many levels. I think like every single person that I met with every counselor that I met with, you know, led me to, you know, kind of a certain kind of understanding and articulation, you know, you know, different things that I've done, but to get back to the question.

Right now I'm in no, like I may be a priest and I may be a religious for 17 years now and a priest for 18 for eight years. but in no way, do I want to, I wanna tell our viewers, first of all, I, I just wanna say, just be patient with yourself, be very patient with yourself and it's okay. That it takes time to figure these things out.

And God is very, very patient with us. That's one of the things that I've learned, uh, through the years that being a perfectionist myself, I thought that I needed to be perfect for God to love me. I think everything that I did Joey, as a child, I think, and this stems from, I think me trying to get my dad's attention.

I was a star, all star baseball player. Third base. My grandfather used to call me Brooks, Robinson , uh, said that, you know, nothing could get past me out third base. And I remember coming home and telling my dad, you know, what I did and how many hits I had and how much I was on base and how many RBIS I had and whatever so forth.

And then it went on, uh, you know, different things that I, that I did. In childhood speed skating. I was a very good speed skater, roller skater. I was a skateboarder too, as well during that time. So like for five to six years, I, my whole life revolved around, um, going down to the skate park and skating street and, uh, many ramp and even vert ramp, even skated with a professional skateboarder at one time.

Uh, I kind of boast about that a lot. Wow. A lot of lot, some our viewers watch the X games and they might know who Bucky LASIK is. okay. And I actually skated with him on a, a mini ramp that a hometown that he lived at, and I always kind of boas skated with a professional skateboarder. Not that I was a professional skateboarder or anything, but, but.

There was this, there was this real, like push in me to Excel at everything on every level in skateboarding. And then in high school and post high school, the big thing for me and what consumed my life before my conversion was my car. I had a, a compact car, 1991 Honda CRX. Uh, if our viewers have ever watched fast and the furious, that was my life.

uh, I lived that life radically. I know when you, when you watch that movie, that was my life. I mean, there's no getting around it. Yeah. It is a subculture. I was in it literally, and it's it consumed my life. And, and this goes back to my debt. I, I was kind of imitating my father cuz my father loved cars growing up.

My dad had 68 Mustang, which he sold when I was 16, 15. He didn't want me to kill myself, wrap myself, wrap myself around that telephone pole. I remember the person counting out the dollar bills on the table and watching that, watching the car, literally being driven off mm-hmm and I thought to myself, I'm gonna have a car one day.

So I did and I was putting literally thousands and even 10 thousands of dollars, uh, ultimately into this car. And it, this car is what was my small G God. I mean that, that car sucked the life out of me. And that was the, I just kind of give that kind of a background story, I guess mm-hmm . To to say that my, it was really a, a perfectionism, uh, that was really unhealthy.

And still, even then I have to battle even still to this day, a false reality that I somehow need to prove my existence to God. I need to prove my value and my worth to God. That's not true. God loves me into being, you know, I exist everybody. That's listening to this podcast exists because they are known by God.

They are loved by God and they're sustained by God right now. As we speak right now, God is holding us into existence. If he would stop thinking about us for one moment, for one IOT of a moment, we would not just be dust Joey. We would be annihilated. Wow, totally. We'd be annihilated. If God would stop thinking about us.

I think that for me to kind of, I know it's kind of long winded answer, but, um, you're good. But for me, the, when, when the divorce happened, I was already in seminary. So thank God I had that environment of support of prayer, community prayer, the Eucharist, every day, confession. I had many people surrounding me that love me and that, you know, that I could open up to and be vulnerable to.

And some people don't, maybe some of our viewers don't have that yet. Yeah. Don't don't have that support system. And that support system is. Is really absolutely crucial. I think in moving forward in any kind of, um, healing, and I'm not just talking short term healing, but we want long term healing too.

Don't we, we want to, you know, look at the human person as, as Bo mind, body and soul. The effect of our parents' divorce is going to affect every single facet of our life and not just the spiritual life we're, we're kind of dealing with the spiritual aspects in this show. Mm-hmm , but it it's going to deal with, you know, our physical health.

Sometimes it's gonna deal with our emotional health, psychological mental wellbeing, but of course, it's going to Reve havoc on our spiritual life. We're mind, body, and soul. That makes so much sense. And what you said. This need that you felt to impress your dad to get his attention to really, if I could put it this way to earn his love.

Yes. And in the same way you felt the need to earn God's love as well. Yes. And so, yeah. How, um, I'm curious and I, and again, I know this is still always a work in progress. Healing is an infinite goal. It's something we're always working on and in one way or another, even though you can make real progress and I know you have, yeah.

How did you heal that relationship with God? Like how did you get past some of those obstacles, those barriers that were preventing you from having intimacy with God? What, what did you do there? You mentioned a couple things so far, but if you would elaborate on that, I think the temptation is always to, I, I wanna.

Diverge from like what I did rather to what, to what God did I think. Mm. Because we could, we could, we could focus on methods. Certainly we could focus on all kinds of different methods and you know, how very helpful stuff that is available for us. But I think like in a spiritual dimension, we have to, to realize that even before I move, even before, um, you know, father John Paul, or even back then when it, you know, my, my baptismal name is Joshua David.

I was Joshua David when it happened. when in religious life we receive a new name, uh, for some of our viewers that aren't familiar with, uh, religious life, we receive a, a new name to symbolize our. New mission and consecration to God much like Abraham becomes Abraham. Sara becomes Sarah and Simon becomes Peter.

So, you know, Joshua sometimes when I talk to myself, Joey, I actually call myself Joshua . Okay. I actually say, you know, uh, I just say Josh, Josh, you're so stupid. when you, when you wanna beat yourself up, I just literally say, what do you thinking, Josh? What do you think ? Um, I guess I, I just wanna say that I allowed God to draw close to me, you know, rather than, I mean, obviously there is the, there is a dimension of us strolling close to God and us making the effort.

It is an effort to, to pray and to, uh, seek out help and to seek the Lord's assistance and all this. But I, I think that I wanna, I want to emphasize the spiritual dimension for our listeners, that we have to first realize that God draws close to us in our misery, in our brokenness, that he is the one who takes the initiative first, even before I move, even before I utter any kind of prayer any time before, um, I say, I might say, Lord, where are you in this?

Anything, anytime I kind of move, I, I make an effort or a thought about God, God, is there, Joey, God moves first. Does that make sense? I really absolutely think that that's helpful. In our healing is that God cares. Mm-hmm that actually, that God is actually interested in me. God, God has a vested personal interest in me.

Um, I think that's helpful for, to kind of wrap your mind around. That's one of the things I think that's led to the most, most healing in my, my spiritual outlook of this all is that God draws near to me in my brokenness, in my misery profound. And it sounds like one of the things that you had to do was just let him love you, which can be so difficult at times.

Totally. It sounds easy in some ways it's like, it's not so easy. I don't wanna, I don't wanna pretend that what I just said. I came to overnight. Oh my gosh. No, I don't wanna pretend that that was easy at all. I'm sure it was preached to me. I'm sure I heard it growing up from the pulpit, but you know how sometimes our ears and our souls are not quite ready for what is being preached to us.

Totally. You know, we need to, you know, our, our, our souls are like the seed ground of, of the, you know, kind of like the parable, the so, and the seed. I, I, I always think that when that parable comes up of the Rocky ground and also the, the ground that has, uh, that is semi kind of prepared, that has that, that the seed is plant, that the seed is thrown and it grows for a time, but then the sun comes and then it's scorched mm-hmm and then you have the seed that is thrown and then thorns come choke up, kind of come up and choke the seed.

But then you have this seed ground that is fertile and life giving, and that is the seed ground that allows really kind of healing in the word of God. And, and also the psychological sciences too. I don't wanna, I don't wanna say that when, when we talk about mind, body and soul, it's not just the, the, the gospel that we're talking about in this realm of healing too, but we're also, I think can be very helpful is conversations with, um, professionals in the, in the psychological realm and, um, mental health realm that God can use all those things to re to bring about restoration and healing.

Absolutely. We can't compartmentalize the human person. Yes. Uh, each part of us. Good way of putting the other parts. Yep. As a priest, you counsel a lot of people who spiritually direct people, you, you hear a lot of confessions and I'm curious. Yeah, it's beautiful. I'm curious. What are some common struggles and some barriers that, that you see that people who come from broken homes, uh, tend to have in their relationship with God.

Wow. Joey, I'm smiling. Cuz to hear confessions is the greatest thing that I do practically. I can't imagine it is in that realm. I always see, I always like to say, and I would say to our audience, especially those that are Catholic. I think, I think that for. For, for us it's that realm is so sacred. I treat it almost as like the burning Bush.

I mean, it's that literally, I mean, it's like Moses approaching the Lord took off his shoes and you know, his, his countenance changed when he was before the Lord. Like the confessional is literally that sacred, uh, when somebody approaches that, that realm of healing, I would say that how, how can I summarize this?

I could talk for an hour about this. We could do an entire show on this. No question. I love it. I love it. I love that you brought this up. I just going back to what you said about, uh, at the beginning of the show, and I'll beginning this question about barriers. When you said that word at the beginning of the show, and also now not just barriers, Joey, but people we put up castles we, we put up huge walls and fortresses around us.

yeah. To pro to protect us. Yeah. And we don't want to let people in, we don't even wanna let that draw bridge down to let somebody in, you know, we we're, we're very, I think we're very guarded. If, if that's, I guess that's an appropriate world, we're very guarded even in the spiritual realm. And I found even in, in confession, in the sacrament app penance very often, sometimes I can, I can notice now that I've going through healing myself, and I wanna say that I'm.

I'm not healed by any stretch of the imagination. I'm a work in progress. Or rather, I like to say I'm a mess in progress but I think that I can more easily notice now those barriers, those castles, those walls that people are putting up and you have to be very patient with people. You have to be very gentle with people.

And I think it's helpful for priests. If there's any priests that are, that are listening to this, for them to be very patient and gentle with people who have brokenness in their, in their background, in the, whether their parents are divorced, uh, or not, maybe it's some other kind of brokenness. Uh, we priests need to be very patient.

I remember a priest that was our superior used to say. That, uh, were to be like a lion from the pulpit and a lamb in the confessional, uh, to treat people like literally a lamb to treat people like Jesus would. Uh, can I tell a story quick please? Yeah. And there's a story about St. Leo Paul man ditch. He's, uh, a confessor that spent just as many hours as pad PIO in the confessional, 13 to 15 hours a day, even more in the confessional.

Wow. And he dealt with a lot of people. So you have to think that he dealt with a lot of brokenness. There was one story about him where one of the fryers said, father, Leah poll. You're too lenient on people. You're not hard. You're not hard enough on us in the confessional. And he said, I want you to go into the chapel and I want you to take it up with him.

Who's in the tabernacle because that's who I learn, how to be a priest from how to be patient with people is Jesus. You look at the gospels, Joey, look at the gospels and look at how Jesus dealt with sinners. He was very patient and that's how I think I, in my ministry as a priest, I, how, how I try and deal with people in the confessional is, is in a very patient manner.

Sometimes those wounds like in my life, I think bringing it back to me here I am 20 years later. And a lot of, I think a lot of those wounds are now still being. Addressed or even brought to the surface even for the first time, even in 20 years. Yeah. Even during the pandemic I've been able to, in that realm heal so much and been able to address, I think, more concretely those areas.

That's fantastic. And I love what you said about the confessional. Let's stay there for a second. Sure. I know so many people listening, uh, some, you know, are not religious. Some are religious, some are Catholic. Some are not, I think there's this immense fear when it comes to confession. And I felt that so much in my own life, uh, especially.

When I was younger and I did some pretty bad things screwed up and just terrified. Like literally I remember one time father, I was standing in line for the confessional and I literally was shaking cuz I was so afraid to tell the priest what I had done. And so I think there was a lot of people like that and especially people who maybe been away from it for a long time.

And so I love what you said. It's super encouraging. It's like you're not waiting in the confession to like smite someone you're just like receiving them with love. Yes, absolutely. I would like to say if, if there, if there ever has been an experience in your life where, what, maybe it was in the confessional, it maybe it was a priest.

Um, maybe it's an older listener. We're listening to that's listening right now. Maybe a priest wasn't kind to you in the confessional. Um, wasn't considerate. Wasn't patient, uh, was maybe he was, you felt like he was rushed. I wanna apologize for that. I wanna say, I'm profoundly sorry. In the name of Jesus Christ.

And as a priest of his church, that's not how a priest should be in the confessional. Now priests are weak too. I mean, you know, we're subject to being tired and I don't want to, you know, make excuses. Um, but at the same time, I think as when Pope Francis commissioned me as a missionary of mercy in the, in the Jubilee year of mercy, he told us in Rome, I remember that he didn't want the confessional to be like a torture chamber and he used that kind of imagery that he said, may, may, perhaps some people have that experience of the confessional being a torture chamber.

And I bring that up, Joey, because I have in these five years that I've been a missionary of mercy I've I've made public, you know, almost apologies to people like I just did. And people have come back to the church and come back to confession because of that, I believe it. I mean, I've, I've seen people almost break down in front of me because they have had a bad experience as a child.

Um, so that being said, you know, fear is part of the, I mean, I think everybody, every one of us has fear, even, even those people who, who, who don't have a broken, uh, background, you know, fear is part of the fallen human condition. And I think, especially when you're, you're dealing with sin in whatever kind of sin it may be, I think for most people, sexual sin tends to be the most fearful of those sins that are confessed.

because that's where shame enters into the picture, because the reality is Joey human sexuality is from God. It's beautiful. Hmm. It's so beautiful when it's oriented toward God and union with God and for married love and for procreation. But when, when Satan twists the picture, when Satan just throws a wrench into God's most beautiful creation into the human person, into the gift of human sexuality, it's like a, a machine that is meant to run perfectly that when the wrench hits the gears, what do those gears start to do?

They grind mm-hmm and, and they don't work properly. And I think that's, that's where. In the spiritual realm in the emotional realm, in so many other realms in, in our, in our thought life, we, we begin to be almost consumed by our sins and our shame. And I would just like to encourage our viewers to bring that to God's mercy.

There's nothing that a priest in my opinion has not heard and that we're, we're supposed to be as priests we're supposed to be in the person of Jesus. So you're, you're confessing those most intimate, those most vulnerable shameful sins. You're bringing those to the, the divine mercy to God's healing mercy.

And, and I would just say to you that I'm praying for you, first of all right now. And I know that Joey's praying for you and, and all, I think let's, let's just say all the viewers are praying for you, for anyone that may be listening, uh, for, for healing that you may not be scared. It may take time to get over that.

It's not, it's not easy. It's not a, I wish I wish I can just snap my fingers right now and just heal. And that, that fear, I think that the more we go before God in the sacrament app penance, and maybe you experience this too, and you can give firsthand account, Joey. I, I can, I can as well. The more I, the more I started to go to confession and bring those sins that I had before God to be healed, the more I would go, the more comfortable I was.

And that fear started to dispel and I wasn't afraid anymore. I I'm actually now I love confession. I go to confession all the time. I never went to confession growing up. I mean, I didn't grow up really as a, on fire, a Catholic going to confession all the time. I mean, there was a time where I didn't go to confession for 15 years.

Hmm. So once I started going to confession, which was really during my conversion in my twenties, and then when I entered the seminary, um, I started to see that, that the confessional is a place of healing. That's what it is. I mean, the sacrament app penance and reconciliation is the sacrament. One of the sacraments of healing besides the sacrament of the anointing of a.

Incredible. Yeah, I know that's a, that's a long convoluted answer to your question. No, no. I thought it was on point. I thought it was really good. And that was so refreshing hearing. You apologize for preset there who maybe were mishandled, you know, a certain confession or who be struggled with, you know, treating people well, and I've, I've had my, uh, fair share of those and that's, um, disappointing, but I've also had some incredible confessions and we just were research is so understanding.

And so, yeah, just so merciful yeah. In their humanity. I know they're representing Jesus in that moment, but also like, as a person, so empathetic and yeah, one thing I would say. To everyone listening, especially anyone who, a, a Catholic, who hasn't been a confession to a long, for a long time, just, it will feel scary, but do it scared.

And eventually, like father said, like you said, father, um, it will become less scary, but do it scared even if you're scared and you're gonna find so much freedom that it's just so freeing and so healing, like you said, and one of the things I, I heard a one priest say is that when, when he hears someone come to confession and maybe confess some really difficult sin that, that they had committed, um, he just has admiration for them.

He's not like disgusted with them or anything like that. He has admiration that they have the courage to come and, and give God something that he, he didn't have that their hearts, their sins and things like that. So thought, can I second that motion please? I, I will second that motion of that priest. Oh my goodness.

Like there are some days where I go down to the confessional and I'm tired, but I walk outta the confessional. and I feel like doing cartwheels. Wow. Because, because that's as a priest, I think that's where I experience God's mercy and his heart beating. I mean, I don't hear it. I don't wanna say I hear the heart beat of Christ, but in some days it almost feels like his heart is pounding in there because like so many people are coming to, uh, the sacrament of penance in their brokenness, in their vulnerability and yes, when they open up their lives and they let me in, um, as a priest there and to have that, have that kind of, um, that realm where, where one is entering into just, uh, liberation, freedom.

Mm-hmm yeah. As a priest, I can, I can tell you that. I have come away and I say this, gosh, I, I know I've, I know I've said this to a person several times. I have said to a person in the confessional ma'am or sir, I was born for you. Hmm. If, if I, if I was a priest, just for you, literally just for you, then my life was worth living.

Then my whole existence matters because you know, the, the infinite mercy of God to, to, um, to be in that, in that place where, where God's mercy is, you know, showering down and liberating a soul from even perhaps decades. Um, it's sometimes it's been 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, um, even. Helped somebody recently, uh, there was a lady who called in to E w TN over the pandemic that could not get to church.

And she hadn't been the confession for over 70 years. I called a friend of mine in New York who I knew might be close to her. And he actually drove to her house, heard her confession, brought her holy communion, Joey 70 years. Oh, I mean, I get excited just talking about it. I mean, it's beautiful. The Lord is incredible.

Uh, he is far above our weaknesses. Incredible. And yeah, it's, it's amazing. You have the power, you know, obviously in your priesthood and Jesus gives you this power to literally break the bonds of spiritual slavery. It's incredible that you're freeing spiritual slave. So, so good. And one final thing on confession that we should move on.

I remember a quote from Santa Augustine, where he said that in failing to confess, I would not be hiding myself from you talking to God, but I would be hiding you from myself. Right. And so I think, you know, there's this fear of showing what we've done and just being vulnerable. And that holds a lot of people back there.

There's nothing that God doesn't know exactly. God God knows at all. So, so I would just simply wrap this up by saying to somebody don't be afraid that God already knows. God wants us to verbalize. I often get, tell, tell somebody when you go to the doctors and you have an ailment, you have to tell the doctor what the problem is.

You can't just say it hurts. The doctor's gonna say to you, where does it. Well, you need to say to the person, to the doctor, it hurts here. It hurts there. The doctor can't help you. If you keep on saying it hurts, you need to say it hurts in my elbow. It hurts in my neck and the same thing with confession.

And we need to name the actual what we've done the sin by approximate. We need to what the sin was. Approximate approximation. How many times, if we know how many times basically we're I like to say we're calling it out. Mm-hmm , we're calling it out. This is what I've done. We don't make excuses. This is what I've done.

And in that we're letting it go. Joey. we're we're giving it back to God. Wow. Being freed. Yeah. And that's what it's all about. It's about freedom and salvation is beautiful and incredible. Uh, you had so many good things to say about that. So thank you. I, uh, wanna get back to just the barriers that we experience when you come from a broken home.

And I'm sure people who don't come from broken homes, experience these things as well. But we've seen a trend in our apostle, in our ministry here that people who come from broken homes tend to struggle with these things and the, the, the first one. And I've dealt with this on a personal level. Is that so many of us feel abandoned by God?

Yes, we, we, we feel like he wasn't there for us, especially when we needed him the most. And I know in my life I'd ask him questions. You know, eventually when I started growing a little bit more in my spiritual life, getting closer to God, building intimacy with God, I would ask him like, God, why? Like, why would you let this happen?

God, where were you? When I need you. And honestly, father, I had to wrestle with those for years. Yes. And, and, and like you said, it's still a work in progress, but, um, I, thankfully I've been able to, to make a lot of progress by God's grace, but, um, this is a real barrier for so many of us. We just feel abandoned by God and therefore we'd want nothing to do with him.

What, what would you say to someone who's struggling with that particular barrier? I would say that God can take it. God can take your anger even to express that to him, to, to verbalize, to say, God, I'm angry, I'm angry at you. God will not strike you down. I promise you. Hmm. I promise you, God wants to hear from you.

God wants to you to verbalize your pain. I think the best form of prayer, if you will, is the Psalms themselves that we pray. Hmm. Uh, the Psalms of lamentation. When you go through some of those Psalms, those are the very Psalms that Jesus Christ, the son of God prayed himself. Joey, my God, my God. Why have you abandoned me?

Psalm 22? My God, my God. Why have you abandoned me? So why not? Why not take the Psalms the very, the word of God and make it your own literally. I mean, say it, say it to God, my God, my God. Why have you abandoned me now? I'm a big fan of the chosen. I don't know if you ever watched the chosen, uh, series. I haven't yet, but I know a lot of people love it.

It's it's amazing. Um, so one of the new episodes addresses this very question. Hmm it's um, the scene in, uh, the second season, I think it's, um, episode two in the second season of Nathaniel being underneath the fig tree and the Lord Jesus, and the gospels says to Nathaniel, I saw you when you were underneath the fig tree, remember mm-hmm and in that gospel scene, in the, in the show, in the chosen, they, that the way they played out that narrative was brilliant.

was brilliant. And what they were trying to get across to the viewer, to those of us who are watching is that God sees us. Nathaniel is calling out to God in this scene. He's like, if Lord do not turn your face from me, do not turn your face. And he's, he's thinking that God has abandoned him. That God doesn't see him, that God doesn't know his pain, what he's going through.

He's thinking that mm-hmm . But, but then very shortly after is when he meets Jesus of Nazareth. And Jesus says to him, Nathaniel, I did not abandon you. When you were underneath the fig tree, I saw you. And that's the moment of a epiphany that Nathaniel looks at Jesus. And he realizes like, wait a minute.

Like, no, literally nobody was around me. Nobody saw me. But, but you are the son of God in the scriptures that says this, you are the son of God. You are the king of Israel. So he realized then and there that Jesus was the Messiah. That God, the point is that God sees us, that God knows us. You know, I've definitely gone through that too in my life where, you know, I thought that God couldn't possibly identify with me, um, that God had abandoned me.

It's tough. Mm-hmm , it's not easy. Um, like you said, it takes years. I think when we grow in our prayer life, we, we tend to go through even desolation St. John of the cross would even put it this way. Something like this, that, uh, the closer we get to God, we are kind of blinded in faith because God is so close to us that we are our senses, our perception of him.

in the realm of faith. Like we're literally blinded if that makes sense, because he's drawing so close to us. I think that sometimes that's helpful for people to hear too, that God is, God is so close to you that maybe you, maybe you don't realize it because he's so close to you. Yeah. And that's so one thing I I've learned follow over the years is that when I would kinda wrestle with God, like you said, I would let out my anger and I would just ask him, like, where were you?

Cause I felt abandoned by you. Um, what I learned through, you know, a lot of prayer, spiritual direction silence is that he just wasn't there kinda watching from the sidelines, watching me get beat up, watching me suffer. He was right there in the midst of it with me. And I believe that beyond a shadow of a doubt now, like I'm so convicted by that.

And yeah, I think it's helpful to remember that. Um, sometimes another priest said this, he said, sometimes God's only response to our pain is his presence. Amen. And so he's there, even if we can't feel him, even if we can't see him, he he's often there silently working through the circumstances through other people to, to, to be the, for us to help us.

But we might not always see that immediately. One of the things that helped me, Joey, when my parents got divorced my first year of seminary and I was having those panic attacks, which thank God I, I, you know, I don't experience so much, uh, panic or anxiety anymore. Thanks me to God. I think as I get older, one of the prayers that I would often say is Jesus, I trust in you.

Jesus. I trust in you. I would take my rosary beads and I would just say it around the beads. Jesus, I trust in you. Jesus. I trust in you. I had to put my focus on him and not myself when I focused on myself and my own brokenness and the, my own whirlwind that was going around in my life. You know, I felt like during those years, that, especially that first year of seminary, I felt like I was on the boat with Jesus.

And he was at the helm of the boat of the boat sleeping mm-hmm and that I was like, screaming Lord, like I'm in this boat, wake up. like, I like, I feel like it's going to tip over, wake up. Yeah. But you know, the reality is like, like I've, I've come to experience also in my prayer life and my personal life that, you know, what.

I mean, God never sleeps. Obviously he knew exactly what was going on in that boat. mm-hmm and he knows what's going on in the, the listeners, um, listening. Now he knows your pain better than you do. God knew my pain better than I did. So I had to shift to focus from myself to him. If that makes, does that make a little bit of sense?

Um, yeah. Yeah, no, it does. I think when I shift it to him and to say Jesus, like, I, I, I can't trust. I need your help Lord, in order to trust, I can't trust because I've been relationships in my life have failed. Have been broken down. I feel crushed. Lord, how am I supposed to trust when I have all this happening around me?

when I've had this relationship falling, fallen apart in my life. I think that's where we need to lean on God to lean on our Lord and to ask him to restore that trust because he can restore it and to be patient with ourselves. Again, I need to emphasize that again, to be, to be very patient with our ourselves in this process.

That's great advice. Another trend that we've seen with people come from broken homes is that we tend to have. More distorted image of God. And I think all of us as humans have a distorted image of God, but for those of us who come from broken homes, we tend to think of God like our parents. Like we tend to project our parents' behavior, what they were like onto God thinking he must be the same.

What, what are some of the most common misconceptions that, that you've seen people have about God and, and how do you, how do we undo that? How do we, UNTW those distorted, that distorted image that we have of God, that's a great question. We need to bring those to God for healing, but at the same time, like you said, how can we bring those two God for healing?

If we have, um, a false image in our own mind, a false conception of the father, if we don't want to approach the father, it's definitely, like I said, it's a work in progress. And to ask for that healing, the Lord says in Matthew seven chapter seven, asking you shall receive. seek and you shall find knock and the door shall be open unto you.

I can't do it myself. I need the help of God. And also the help of other people. I think having good friendships definitely helps. Mm-hmm one of the things, um, I think that, you know, especially with, um, broken homes and broken relationships, there can be a, a whole facet of things that we're dealing with here.

Joey, we can deal there's there's things. Um, there there's the father wound, there's a false image of the father there's we can project on God, the father, our own image of who we think and know our own earthly father to be mm-hmm and that's really, uh, unhealthy. We can be afraid to approach God because of that.

And just, just the whole. The reality of having relationships, we can struggle with trust because our trust has been broken. And so it's hard for us to imagine ourselves trusting in a loving father when we've had our own father, not even come to remotely close to what we deserve. I've seen people having mother wounds in relationships, in broken relationships and, and that too affects our relationship with, with the Lord.

Yeah. I like to mention, you know, I know some maybe used to not, not, not used to hearing about, uh, the blessed Virgin Mary, um, and certainly the blessed Virgin Mary is not. She's not a goddess Catholics do not worship Mary in any sort or fashion or imagination. Um, she is the mother of God. She's a creature.

Godd is a creator. God is the Redeemer. God is the Messiah. The blessed Virgin Mary is a great model, but it shows to you that God gives us, you know, as Catholics, we believe in the community of the saints. Uh, we believe that we have friends in heaven that have lived this earthly life and struggle just as we have, and that are here, they're here for us to be our friends.

So I think that it can be helpful to in the spiritual life to bring in the lives of the saints. because the saints are not perfect themselves. The bless of Virgin Mary, obviously she was, you know, immaculate. She was perfect. She was, you know, without sin from the moment of her conception. So she is different in many ways, but the saints are imperfect.

The saints were made perfect by God's grace by God's help. And that's, that's where we enter into the picture, I think is we bring ourselves everything that we are good and bad, the mess that we are. mm-hmm we bring that into the realm of grace and we ask God to transform it, to unravel the mess. There's a devotion, our lady endure of knots, and it's a beautiful image of our lady taking these knots of our life.

That. We've we all have them, whatever they may be, but she's taking her hands and she's literally trying to unravel the knots in her life. And, and we as Catholics know that she's doing that by God's help by God's grace. There's nothing in our lady that she is doing for us. That is apart from God, everything that we understand that she is doing in our life is she is doing it with, with God's help in the realm of grace, you know, in the realm of grace, like our blessing mother, the Lord gives us a mother in the order of grace to, to mother us to bring us healing.

And I think that's helpful for some people that may have an experience of a mother. Who has hurt them. I'd like to bring that up too. Maybe there's, uh, somebody that has horrible experiences of their own mother. I, I don't, I, my mother is amazing. nobody's perfect. But I would say she is . My mother is near perfect, but you know, the Lord gives us our blessed mother, I think, in that realm of the communion of the saints, uh, to help bring us to Jesus.

That's the only thing I, I, I like to simply end the, this section by saying that our lady is transparent. She is completely transparent. It's not about her. It's about the Lord. So when you look at her, when you think about her, whenever you go to her, you're going you're, you're, you're going to Jesus. She's bringing you to the Lord.

So I think she can be very helpful in bringing you to Jesus. And also Jesus is the image of the invisible God. Ultimately it's in Jesus who corrects our understanding of the father. I think if I can say that. Yeah, no. So good. Jesus ultimately corrects our understanding of fatherhood of who God, the father is.

He reveals the father. So when we look at Jesus in the gospels, when we come to know Jesus, our whole conception of fatherhood is healed. Again, this, this is a lifetime of process. This is not, you know, we will always grow in our knowledge of, of, of the Lord and our love and, and are going to the father. But that's where somebody can begin is by going to Jesus and even going to the saints, going to our bless a.

So good. You hit on so many great points. One of the, a few of the things that helped me a lot when it came to kind of healing that distorted image of God that I had were some of the things that you just mentioned first off scripture, because just like if you had a bad, you know, a misconception about another person, like a friend, let's say, or a coworker, uh, one of the ways overcome that is by spending time with that person to see what they're actually like.

Yeah. Not just what you think they're like, but what are they actually like? And I know scripture's a perfect way to do that. And so, uh, drawing close to God through, through scripture, learning about him, listening to really his love letter to us that has been so helpful for me. The other thing of course is prayer, um, specifically to sacraments, but also just mental prayer, silent prayer, personal prayer speaking, you know, one-on-one with Jesus, like that has been so helpful, uh, for me in my life.

And then the last thing is what you mentioned the saints and to anyone who isn't Catholic listening, it can be kind of confusing, but we're basically talking about people who had such deep intimacy with God that he transformed their entire life to the point where they live lives of heroic virtue, right.

They just had the, these good habits in their lives. Their hearts, uh, tended to do what is good. And so their, their lives, them as individuals reflect who God truly is. And so we can learn through them what God is actually. So that, that has been so helpful for me, especially looking at modern saints, people who I can relate to a little bit more than maybe someone who was, you know, alive a thousand years ago.

Not that not to put them down. I'm sure they're awesome. But, um, but for me personally, that's been so helpful. And now at the same time, someone who did live a while ago, St. Joseph, and I remember a priest telling me once that if you struggle with that father wound, if you struggle going to God, the father start with St.

Joseph, because more than anyone, he best reflects what God the father's actually like. And so, um, through scripture, through maybe other books or resources that kind of dive into looking at the life of Joseph, uh, we can get a glimpse into what God the father's actually like. And man, if you do that, it is beautiful.

And it's not what you think. Because again, we tend to think that maybe God, the father is an identical person to our father, and that is not the case at. I wanna go into something very specific here about trust. So you mentioned this a couple times. Trust can be really difficult for those of us who maybe have that misconception of God.

We felt abandoned by God may maybe feel abandoned by God. And so we feel like it's impossible to trust him or to trust anyone. In addition to what you've already said, is there anything in particular you would add when it comes to learning to trust God? I think in drawing close to God, one of the things that helped me is Eucharistic adoration to draw close to God and to just let him love you.

That's one of the things that I think when in my own personal life, uh, my personal journey in coming to know who I was in God's eyes, that he loved me, uh, that he died for me, uh, that he knows who I am. It all kind of stems around and really flows from. When I would draw close to him in the blessed sacrament, I, I would re I would recommend spending time in quiet reflection and Eucharistic adoration.

And one of the things Joey, as I mentioned earlier about my, uh, being kind of the fast and furious in the cars and stuff like that, my life was very noisy. Um, I had not just a $4,000 car stereo system. I had all that, um, at a very young age, I had, you know, the cell phones that now the kids have smartphones and mm-hmm and the pager and all that stuff.

I had all that stuff back in 1995. So I was, wow. I was pretty ABO, uh, I was, I was kind of ahead of my days and doing all that stuff. I went from being immersed in like a noisy life, um, and trying to go and spend time in. Adoration or in the church with the Lord and I couldn't do it. I couldn't, there was, there was so much in my life that that was preventing me from that.

I would say this not just exterior noise, it wasn't solely about the exterior noise, the, the 4,000 hour car stereo system that I had pounding in my ears. But Joey, I had so much internal noise, so much baggage. That was just, I think, preventing me from trusting in Lord, in the Lord in listening to his voice.

And I think when, when you go to the Lord, just ask him in all sincerity Lord, you know, help me to trust in you, help me to unpack this baggage in my life. You know, I often tell. Couples that when they're preparing for marriage, that you need to help each other unpack in a sense, your life, the mess of your life.

Let's get it all out on the table now in marriage preparation so that we can deal with it. If you don't unpack it now, then ultimately it's gonna end up exploding later. Um, you can't stuff it in a closet, uh, for no one to see it's going to end up exploding. So we need to deal with our, with our wounds healthy in a healthy manner, by bringing them to God by bringing them.

And I would, and also like to say, not just to the Lord, but bring them to other people as well. One of the things besides your, your podcast, which, you know, I started listening to, I found out, um, not too long ago about it, so I, we kind of have a history going back. So it, it's kind of interesting that the Lord would bring us back together.

Um, yeah, I went to the holy land with you in 2014. So it's just, it's just interesting how God just draws all these lines. I know it's incredible. Yeah. I looked up to you a lot at and on that pal was great, but I, I went on a retreat with a group called life giving wounds mm-hmm and I would like to, to plug them to encourage the viewers, not just to listen to, to Joey's podcast and also anything that Joey has to offer on his, on his website.

And, but also a ministry that Joey's been involved with too called life giving wounds. I did a retreat with them, uh, during the fall of C. and to be honest, I wanna say that for me, that was one of the graces of COVID for me, one of the biggest graces was going on that retreat. And I was able to listen to speakers and people a lot like myself, mm-hmm , uh, people who are listening right now who have those same wounds, that same type of baggage from being adult, adult, child of divorce.

And it was so healing for me. So I might encourage you to, to look them up, to look at their website. They, they offer retreats, uh, throughout the year in person retreats and also, uh, retreats that are virtual. I think that could be a. Thank you for throwing that out there. Yeah. Dr. Daniel Melo, the guy who started it, he came on the, uh, the podcast in episode nine.

So if anyone wants to go back and listen, uh, about that, you can, that we talked a little bit more about the format of the retreat, kind of what happens on the retreat, just to give you some of an idea of what it would be like to go on it. So check out episode nine, if you want to, uh, to learn more about that.

And father, just in closing out the show. Sure. There's so many people who, who feel far from God, especially people who come from broken homes and they might not want anything to do with him. They might not be ready for all those God stuff that we're talking about, which I get like, like I, I get where they're at.

What would you say? Just a couple things. One, like, why is a relationship with God? So healing, why does it make our lives better? And what's that first step we need to take in order to, to begin that that's a great question. God draws near to us and he understands you. He understands, uh, your brokenness better than you do yourself, uh, better than your best friend does.

A lot of us are used to talking to somebody, uh, that we trust perhaps a, a close friend, and we might confide things to a close friend. But what about your maker? What about your creator? You know, I often look up, I've always been kind of a stargazer me too. As a child, I'd always look up at the stars, Joey, and, and I, I always kind of like Marvel, like, wow, like this is so awesome when I go to Hansville, it's amazing because it's not near the city and you can see the stars, like they're they're, they, they, they look almost close to you.

You can, you almost feel like you can reach out and touch a star. . You know, the reality is that, okay, God has created all of this. I look up at that. I'm like, God, you are magnificent. You have created all this and you're sustaining it right now, but I I'm worth more than what I'm looking. What I'm looking at.

This, this magnificent work of your hands, the stars, like each one of us is worth more than that. And that he, he knows me. He knows who I am and he knows who you are. And I think for you to realize that you don't need to be perfect in order for God to love you. You can come to him as you are. And God wants us obviously to grow in holiness and he will assist us in that journey.

He doesn't force us by any of the stretch of the imagination. He doesn't force us. To love him. Um, he gives us the freedom to love him, but I just wanna encourage our listeners that just draw close to God as you are, and be surprised, be surprised with what he'll do with that incredible father. Thank you so much for, for coming on the show.

Uh, what's the best way that people could follow you, connect with you if they want. I have no social media actually no Facebook or, uh, YouTube or, but I do, uh, in the Franciscan missionaries of the eternal word, my community has social media outlets, obviously. Uh, so they can go to Francisco, missionaries of the eternal word on Facebook, on YouTube.

And we put up all kinds of videos every week for people. A lot of people like our videos that we put up every week, Instagram Franciscan, missionaries on Instagram, and also, um, E w TN, obviously we are involved. Our, our ministry is a global ministry and we preach the gospel. That's our charism is to preach the gospel through the media.

Uh, that's our mission. And that that's, what's been entrusted to us. So, uh, for me to be on here with you is kind of, I feel like I'm at home. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's, it's great to have you. I hope you felt like you were at home and it it's so good to, to bring you on the show and it's been, uh, great to reconnect with you recently.

And I look forward to staying in touch with you. And, but before we close here, I just wanna give you the last word. Is there anything that you'd like to say in closing, uh, any encouragement or advice to, to someone who, who comes from a broken home who feels very broken, who feels stuck in life because of the breakdown of their family?

I've been there. I'm I am there. I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. I'm sorry for what has happened to you. I'm sorry for the wounds in your life, uh, that you may have experienced by the breakup of, um, your family, your mom and dad, but I can promise you that when you bring those wounds, To God that he can make something beautiful out of it.

He can make the most beautiful symphony out of a very tragic note. Um, it's kind of like a, when a discordant note is introduced into a symphony or a choir, that note can be like a wreck and can really shatter a symphony or a beautiful piece that a choir is singing. But God can start over on that discordant note on that ugly note, even.

God can make a beautiful masterpiece and he wants to make a masterpiece out of your life.

One takeaway from me from that episode was that often it's more difficult to let God love us than it is to love him. And so we really need to just let him love us, just let him see us. And so one challenge for you is just. To spend some time with God as you would with a friend. And this whole idea of prayer can maybe be foreign to some people.

But basically if God is all knowing if he is all powerful, then he knows your thoughts. He knows you, but he doesn't just wanna know you. He wants a relationship with you. And the benefit of being all powerful and all knowing is that you can easily communicate with him since he can hear you anywhere. And so this challenge is this, the exercise is this, just go to a quiet place.

This could be your closet. It can be somewhere outside, wherever, go to a quiet place, shut off your phone and just sit in silence for 10 minutes. Don't move at all. Except for your breathing. Just sit in silence. It's really hard to do. Like it's a good challenge. Try it. And then during that time you could just stay silent and just let God look at you.

Or if you feel like it, talk to. Tell him about the problems in your life. Tell him about the pain that you're experiencing. Tell him what's on your mind. Tell him what's on your heart. Tell him what's happening in your family, whatever you wanna say, tell it to him. And don't expect an audible response.

Something that you can hear with your ears, but know that he's listening to you and know that he's gonna try to find ways. To communicate with you that probably aren't gonna be very direct, but if you look for it, you'll see it. And we'll be talking about that more in other content. But one thing that's really helped me when it comes to praying to God or when it comes to just healing on a spiritual level is having a spiritual director.

A spiritual director is like a spiritual coach. And some of the benefits to, uh, having a spiritual director is they can just help you grow in your relationship with God. They can help you heal your relationship with God and just overcome some of those barriers that we've talked about. And so we're building a network it's not ready at this recording, but perhaps by the time you're listening to this, the network of spiritual directors is ready for you.

And so, uh, you can use our network. And these are people that we trust that we recommend people who are trained in spiritual direction, who can give you the help and the tools that you need to, to grow in your relationship with God grow spiritually. And this network's gonna save you a lot of time in helping you find someone who can direct you.

And so it's really easy. To to find a spiritual director, just go to restored ministry.com/coaching. Again, restored ministry ministry, singular.com/coaching. Fill out a form and then we'll connect you with a spiritual director. Once the network is ready to go again, that's restored ministry.com/coaching.

Fill out the form today. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministrydotcomslashfortythreerestoredministry.com slash four three. Thank you so much for listening. This has been a long episode. Appreciate you making it to the end. And if it's been useful for you, invite you to subscribe and to share this podcast with someone, you know, who could use it.

Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#042: What is Broken Can Be Repaired | Shenandoah Lawson

As people from broken homes, we fear repeating the dysfunction we experienced in our families. But sometimes, we end up going down that path. Our guest today dealt with that in a very real way. 

Years after her parents divorced, she found herself in the exact place she never wanted to be: Going through her own divorce, feeling so broken and empty. But thankfully, her story and her marriage’s story doesn’t end there. In this episode, you’ll hear how her marriage was rescued and more:

• What was happening in her head and heart as her marriage fell apart

• How she wrestled with depression, suicidal thoughts, and a bad relationship with her father

• How she felt like she was inadequate and didn’t deserve love

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• Article: My Parents Divorce Made It Hard for Me to Believe in Lasting Love

• Shenandoah Lawson

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

For people like us from broken homes. One of the biggest fears that we have is repeating the dysfunction that we experience in our own families, repeating the mistakes that we saw, especially in our parents' marriage. We just don't wanna go down that path. But the scary truth is sometimes we do.

Sometimes we end up repeating the same mistakes, the same patterns that we saw, even if we despise them, even if we hate them, even if we don't want to do that. My guests today dealt with that in a very real way. She came from a broken family. Her parents got divorced. And so naturally she never wanted to repeat that.

She never wanted the brokenness and the dysfunction to continue in her own life and in her own marriage. But years later, she found herself in the exact place. She never wanted to be going through her own divorce feeling, just so broken and really on the brink of. Now, thankfully her story and her husband's story, doesn't end there.

There's a really beautiful ending that you'll hear in the episode, but we don't just skip to that. We touch on the messy parts in between. And so what you're gonna hear in this episode is my guess she takes us inside her head and into her heart. As her marriage just fell apart, especially how hopeless she felt and what she did as a response to that.

She opens up about how she blamed herself for her parents' divorce and even dealt with depression and suicidal thoughts. She shares about her struggles and her relationship with her dad and how her family pretended that everything was okay when it really wasn't. We touch on the, the numerous ways that she struggled in her relationships because of the breakdown of her parents' marriage and family, how she felt like nobody would ever love her because she felt inadequate.

Like she didn't deserve love. She even said that she never wanted to really let anyone have power over her, whether that was a boyfriend or just a friend, she never wanted anyone to have power over her. And that came out in her actions. And she also just gives advice and encouragement to anyone out there who comes from a broken home.

And this interview is just so moving. It's so personal and it's really living proof. My guess she is living proof that it's possible to repair something that is very broken, so many great lessons, so many great stories in this episode. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host joy Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 42 and today my guess is Shenandoah Lawson. She is a, a wife, a mother, and a film producer.

She was born and raised in Southern California, but she currently lives in Ireland with her husband and her daughter, her and her husband actually own a small remote production company and they enjoy collaborating and creating together. And like I mentioned, this interview is very personal. It's very raw.

Um, it's kind of heavy at parts and some of you might even think during the interview, are you allowed to talk about this stuff on a podcast? The answer is yes. If we don't, who will, the sad truth is that children of divorce have been huge. Neglected for far too long, they deserve a voice they deserve to be heard.

And that's what we're gonna do here at restore. And there's someone out there right now who really needs to hear this conversation. They feel alone. They feel abandoned. Heck maybe they're even on the brink of despair suicide. So yes, for the sake of that person and for the millions of people like them.

Yes, we can. And we have to talk about this stuff. If we don't who. My guess is a Catholic Christian. And so in this conversation, you're gonna hear us talk about God and about faith. And so if that's not your background, as I usually do, I just challenge you to listen with an open mind. You're still gonna benefit a lot from this conversation, even if you don't believe in God.

And I'm so happy you're here. We obviously don't just exist for religious people. We exist for everyone, for people like you. And so really happy you're here. And I, I know you're gonna get a lot of this episode, so go into it with an open mind.

SHEO welcome to the show. Hi Joey. Thanks so much for having me. It's a pleasure to have you. My wife and I were talking about you yesterday. Actually we were saying that you have a beautiful name Shenandoah. Oh, it's it's awesome. Where did it come from? I'm just curious. Thanks. Yeah, it's actually, um, a river and valley in Virginia.

So there's actually the Shenandoah national park over there in Virginia. Yeah. And so, um, I. You know, funny enough when I, for work reasons, I lived in Virginia, I, you know, was right there right next to my river, basically the Shenandoah. Nice. Yeah. So, and it's that native American name? My there's several translations, but my favorite translation, that means daughter of the stars.

Mmm. Wow. Beautiful. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a very unique name and, and a beautiful name, like I said, so yeah. Such a pleasure to have you on the show, you were 12 years old when your parents divorced. Yes. Mm-hmm. if you would take us there, like what happened? How did you react to it? Sure. Yeah. So unfortunately, like my parents were those two people that should have never gotten married to begin with.

They only got married because my mom was pregnant with my older sister Sequoia, another unique name. so I love it. Um, yeah, so, you know, it was Rocky from the start. My father was very manipulative because my mom was at the time, not there legally. Um, he kind of threatened her into dating and then marrying him and all.

Kind of saying that he would take us away if they, if they, uh, divorced. And my dad had this very twisted idea of faith cuz you know, um, his parents, I guess you could say they were being Hispanic, they were culturally Catholic cultural Catholics, but they weren't practicing mm-hmm so he had kind of a twisted idea of faith and um, what he thought was right or wrong and you know, what he could go to hell for.

And so he kind of brought a lot of that, um, fear into the relationship and basically told my mom like, yeah, we have to get married, cuz if not, we're gonna go to hell . And so she did, she, she married him and things were always Rocky. Like they, they always were fighting when I was growing up and unfortunately.

Like, I guess they thought adopting would make things better, but it didn't, we, uh, they adopted three, my three younger siblings, uh, one of which has passed, uh, last year, unfortunately that was Tony in a motorcycle accident. Yeah. Thank you. Um, but yeah, so they ended up adopting and then things actually just, they got worse from there.

There was, um, abuse, you know, verbal and physical abuse that happened and things were just very bad. And I remember them sitting us down and telling us, like, we, we thought we were gonna get the op kids were, were getting a divorce talk and instead it was like, okay, um, well we're not getting divorced, but.

Dad is going to live in an apartment and you're still gonna see him almost every day, but, you know, we were gonna live with our mom and then our dad was gonna come over and, you know, see us and homeschool us because we were homeschooled. And, um, and so we're like, okay, that's kind of weird, but we were kind of relieved.

Like it wasn't like, okay, they're not completely divorced, but we're actually gonna get some peace mm-hmm and yeah, but then there was, I, I basically found out that my mom was starting to see someone else and I didn't know what to do, like as a Catholic kid. And we were kind of, we grew up volunteering at, uh, senators medical center at the time.

It was a hospital then medical center, basically with the CARite sisters. And, you know, so we actually grew up with a lot of. Instruction and knowledge about the faith, I would say. And so I knew as a kid, like, okay, my mom's seen someone else. My parents are still married. That's not wrong. I mean, that's not right.

So I, I went to my older sister and I'm like, look, I know this is what's happening. What do we do? Like, what do I do? How do I react? And she was just like, oh, well, like we have to tell dad. I was like, really do we have to? Okay. And that kind of set a chain of. To where basically then my parents were getting, uh, a divorce and then fighting over custody.

And that in itself was just a horrible experience, you know, having to go into a counselor and we had our dad telling us all the things that we couldn't tell her, because he was like, if you tell them that, then you're never gonna see each other again, they're gonna take you guys away from us. You're never gonna see your parents, you know, us, your parents again.

So it was just like, wow. Lies, lies, lies, and kind of a bit more about the lies was we were part of a church, uh, at the time, which a lot of my friends that I, you know, that I have or people I, I have met up and spoken with afterwards, they're like, oh yeah, I was, I went there. We went there for a short time.

It was basically this. I wanna call it a dysfunctional parish because there was just like a lot of hypocrisy there, which is sad because like, that's the thing I've seen is a lot of times the most hypocritical people are the ones who claim to be Christian and God fearing people. Mm-hmm . Um, and so we had friends from this church and.

You know, they would come over to our house. We had some really good family friends. And when my parents started, you know, separating at first, there was even lies around that. Like, don't tell them that we're separating and my dad would even keep like his shoes next to the bed for like, if they had to go through the room to, you know, go to the restroom.

And I was like that, that's how big the lie was. Like, we're even pretending at that point that my dad was still there. You know, mm-hmm and so. That was the biggest thing was just like being told and like to lie in this way or that way. And always having to like, be thinking about the lies because you had to get it right.

You couldn't let something slip to your friends, even, you know? So that was just like a horrible mind. yeah. A mind game, you know, as, as a kid growing up. And then when we, when my parents finally did, um, separate and my dad won the custody, then there was a continued physical abuse from my younger siblings.

And then it was just a lot of like, uh, verbal and mental abuse for my older sister and myself. So I ended up leaving my dad when I was 19. I went back to live with my mom and I kind of. Estranged myself from him. Um, I did try to make contact once and, you know, we started talking for a little, but then right away, it was just like toxic, um, all over again.

And so I was just like, I'm, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna put myself through that. And so, um, I never, I never spoke to him again. I just saw him at my brother's funeral. We didn't speak. And then, um, he actually passed away, uh, just a month ago. Hmm. Jen, I'm so sorry. Wow. Yeah. Thanks. You've said a lot. I mean, yeah, it's been, you know, it was hard cuz my brother was two, 2019 in November and he actually passed away just the week before I had to go into, uh, filming for the documentary I was telling you about.

So, you know, just had that right in front right before that big thing for myself. And so it was, that was difficult, but you know, I pulled through and uh, yeah then. Just kind of this whole thing with COVID I don't know. Can I say that word? yeah, it's just like that whole thing over here and just, uh, everything that surrounds it with not being able to go to church and then finding out like, you know, my, my birth father has passed away, which, um, I mean, I can't say that I felt anything, cuz I had just estranged myself for so long, but in a way it did bring peace, but then it also just brought a certain type of mourn for uh, knowing that I just wouldn't have, like my, my daughter would never meet my father, you know?

Like mm-hmm that, that was just a sad reality. Absolutely. And so it sounds like man, there's been so much happened recently in your life. That has probably brought up a lot of, um, the brokenness and a lot of, you know, past memories, but it sounds like things at home originally were just very dysfunctional to the point where something needed to change.

And, you know, I bet you and your siblings hope that there could be, you know, healing and like positive change there, but it sounds like that just didn't happen. So there was some sort of a relief by the fact that your parents separated and then later divorced, which makes sense. And I think a lot of people can relate with that.

And then maybe later on we realize, you know, we're able to see a little bit more clearly how dysfunctional things were at. And then able to kinda understand the impact, not only of the dysfunction, but also of the breaking apart of our parents' marriage. It's a lot to, to swallow. It's a lot to handle and then add in, you know, everything else that happens in life.

Like you, you know yeah. Have experienced in the past year. Yeah, exactly. And I guess the other thing just as a, a young adult, like, you know, I was going into my teens and then my young adults with, you know, my divorced parents. I mean, for a lot of kids that might seem more normal. Oh. But even just to be looked at as like, oh, that's the, the kid with whose parents are divorced, but being a Catholic kid with your parents' divorce was like, A whole different level as well.

Like there was a whole other level of feeling judged, especially by people at the church. Like in fact, people that we thought were friends stopped talking to us as a family. And so we, we ended up leaving that church just because, you know, we, we felt the, what felt like rejection and it was just because they didn't wanna get involved.

They didn't wanna feel like, oh, we're taking aside, you know, either my father or my mother. And so they just made their distance completely and we ended up yeah, just leaving because it was like an obvious kind of distancing that happened. And, um, a couple of the families that were at that parish, we were a part of ended up separating and divorcing also.

And it's just like here, all of our parents were having. You know, going on and none of them were talking about it to each other. I was just, I'm thinking back now. And it's like, imagine if, instead of trying to appear perfect and having it all together, if a little bit humility was had to open up to your Catholic friends, um, or just your friends in general and say, look, we're having these problems.

They could have turned around and been like, oh my gosh, we're having these problems too. And then talk about it. And then maybe things would've been resolved to where, you know, they all could have helped each other with their relationships to where they could have stayed together. So that, that's kind of the sad reality is that at least in that time and in that environment, Whether it was just at that parish or anywhere outside of there, you know, they didn't feel like they could open up and talk, which is why I think that, you know, this show is so great, like that you're actually allowing the conversation to happen.

Thank you. And, um, how these things yeah. Affect people and, uh, actually allow people to validate their emotions too, just because as kids, you know, you're, you don't, um, a lot of things happen, like you end up. Well, for instance, for me, I closed off from talking like opening up to either of my parents. Cuz you don't want to hurt one.

You don't wanna find, you don't want one parent to find out, oh like you told that to, you know, your mom, like why didn't you confide that to me? Absolutely. And have feelings hurt. So you just shut down and you know, that's just one thing that happens and that shut down, like the fact that you're shutting down.

It doesn't just affect, you know, your relationships with them. Like my relationships were then guarded ever since that point mm-hmm so, I mean, that was just, you know, one way that it, it affected me moving forward. Yeah, absolutely. It affected me in A's very similar way and I kind of always loved at arm's length.

One of my relationships, I I'm yeah. Convinced that it failed because I just was so distant. Like I just wouldn't be vulnerable. And that's what you, when you just said that about your parents and, and that small Catholic community, how they weren't vulnerable at all, they were just putting up this facade that everything was fine when everything really was not fine.

And what I've seen is that it's typically driven by shame. You know, this belief that there's something inherently wrong with us, that if people knew what was happening, they just wouldn't love us. They wouldn't accept us. And I've seen that left and right. Um, especially when it comes to brokenness within marriage and, you know, marriages that I knew.

And so, yeah, like you said, you know, vulnerability is the antidote to shame. And so if you're not being vulnerable, you're gonna still feel ashamed. You're gonna hide. You're gonna pretend like everything's fine when it's really not. And I have seen so much hypocrisy too, among Christians among Catholics.

Uh, who, again, pretend that everything's good. And then you realize there's been like multiple fears going on. There's been all these very messy and ugly things that could have been avoided if, you know, they asked for help. But, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I mean, also just feeling like a, like a bad Catholic, like I said, that the whole thing about feeling judged, like not only because we're a part of a family unit and so it's, it carries over, like, I think that's the other thing is, uh, parents think it's just between them, but it's like the whole family, the whole unit is judged and the children feel that, like, I felt that as a child, like totally, um, it was, you know, palatable just how you could kind of taste, uh, the judgment at times, you know?

And, and it carried on for me as well, even just being a Catholic, I always kind of felt like I was like a bad Catholic. Like I'm a different Catholic. I, I could never be as good as other Catholics just because this is like, this is where I come from. Totally. So it sounds like you carry around a lot of shame with you as well.

And man, that's so debilitating carrying that through the years. It was, and I'm no, I can relate with you on so many levels, especially just struggles in your relationship with your dad. I, there was a point where I just didn't agree with the way that my dad was behaving. And so I just told him, Hey, I'm not gonna be able to talk to you until I see some real change in your life.

And so it was like year, year and a half timeframe. So nowhere near as long as what you went through. But, um, yeah, it's, it's a difficult thing to have to do that. Like kids should never have to do that. We should never have to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Especially lie, you know, it's like, I think that was one of the worst things was ha um, being told, you know, this is what you're gonna say.

This is how we're gonna explain this. Like for instance, my, my dad had. Crap. Um, basically he pushed my brother's head into a plate and it busted his forehead open and we had to go around telling people that he had fallen off his scooter, you know, and that's what he got a gash on his forehead. And I mean, just like, yeah, things like that, you know, um, they, they affect a child like.

Telling, and that's why I always grew up like a hated line. And, and when I left my dad, like that was one of the biggest things it's like, I'm not gonna stand for, um, for lies and I'm, I'm not gonna lie. Like honesty is, is so important. And at least that's one thing that I've learned that I've carried into my relationship, my relationships now mm-hmm um, and I have to call some family members on it.

And when, when I catch them line, I'm like, no, no, I know you're lying. Like don't lie to me, you know? Yeah. Like I I'm okay. I'm okay with the truth. Like, it might not be what I wanna hear or what I completely, um, am in line with, but I would rather, you know, know you and talk to you with, with knowing that then have you go about lying to me?

Yeah. And eventually all that's gonna come to the surface anyway, in one way or another. And so mm-hmm, the painful truth. And now is better than, you know, just this whole mess of lies that comes out in the future. And yeah, there's this, uh, one guy that I look up to who it recently came out, that he was like having multiple affairs and things like that.

And it's just, it's, it's just so shocking and sad to, to see that, but that's where it all leads. It's eventually it's gonna come to the light and it's just so, so messy. Yeah, exactly. In the years that followed, how did you deal with all this? Like how did your parents' divorce affect you? How did the dysfunction, uh, affect you in the years that followed?

Right. Well, in the biggest way, I could definitely tell you it affected my relationships. Like I didn't date until I was about 22 and that was just circumstance. I was busy with like things that I pursued that I, that I loved and my parents' relationship really had an effect on me and how I viewed myself as being able to be loved.

and it didn't help that the first relationship I landed in, I didn't even wanna be in a relationship with this person, but he was basically saying, you know, you're never gonna find anyone who loves you as much as I do. And I was just like, gosh, maybe he's right. Maybe I won't ever find anyone who loves me, you know?

Um, may like maybe, yeah, maybe this is my last chance, you know? And so, yeah. Um, you know, I, I got into that relationship that was, um, yeah, that I didn't even wanna be a part of, but it was just that. That voice in my head of saying you don't deserve love. Like you're lucky to have it. And I think that also came from my dad often telling me, like, you, you cry too much.

You don't deserve to cry. Like you have it so good compared to other kids. And that carried over as well. It's like, I don't deserve this. I don't deserve that. Okay. Do I deserve to be happy? Maybe I don't. And so it carried into me getting into, you know, bad relat. And into not valuing myself enough and into, um, the false belief that, that I didn't deserve to have the things that I wanted most because I never had it.

You know, I, I wanted a family. I wanted that, that happy family that I saw, some of my friends having and funny enough, you know, yeah. Some of those families ended up falling apart too. Um, or sadly enough, I should say. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and it also led into like self-fulfilling prophecies, like, because I thought that way, like for instance, when, um, I was into dance for a while and I loved it and I really wanted to do it.

And my dad told me, you know, you don't have the body of a dancer. And it just like crushed me. Cause I was just like, you know, in my family we had, you know, bad knees, like my, you know, they just weren't, I guess you could say, yeah, like they're on the heavy side, at least my dad's side of the family, they were on, you know, heavy side have diabetes.

And so I started getting into dance and I was getting healthier and I, I was, you know, I wasn't a fat kid at that time and I was, you know, I was pretty chubby as a little kid. Sure. Um, which kind of affected me in other ways. And I look back and I do realize that I also was, um, uh, eating for comfort and I was also depressed.

I was chronically depressed, you know, as a young kid and that's just, you know, a whole other thing with that. But, uh, when my dad told me that like, yeah, you don't have the body of a dancer. We ended up winning a dance competition. We took Chris place for our cap, um, for our. Each group. Wow. And then the next rehearsal after that, um, I was doing some across the floor exercises and my knee just gave out and it just, um, yeah, it blew out right there.

um, during rehearsal and I wasn't able to even, you know, I was walking on crutches for weeks and then I moved onto a cane and I was just like my dad's right. You know, I don't have a body for this and I just kind of gave it up at that point. But you know, then once I left, like I still love dancing. I haven't done it in like an actual dance troop since that time, but, you know, uh, I, I still love dancing and, and I still do, especially.

With, uh, you know, my family or whenever we, we have the opportunity. Yeah. Wow. So there, it sounds like so many of the things that you learned in your family, you just carried with you through your life. And I remember reading the blog article that you wrote for ReSTOR. And one of the things you said in there really stuck out to me that you kind of always felt inadequate.

You felt like you needed to earn love based on your relationship, especially with your dad. And that one really hit me because I think so many of us feel that way. I, when my parents, uh, separated and later divorce, that was one of the feelings that I had. I couldn't put my finger on it as an 11 year old boy, but I just felt like I just wasn't good enough.

And then my reasoning was if I was why weren't mom and dad like working through this stuff. Mm-hmm . And so you articulated that really well. Talk about that a little bit, if you would. I think that, you know, you see it's so hard as a kid, not to. Think about yourself and especially think about yourself in the, in the full capacity of, of the family, which is a healthy thing.

Like we should be seen ourselves as a whole, like I said, as a family unit, when it's not just one person, you know, everyone's affected when something happens. Um, so as a kid, you know, when you're, when my parents were divorcing, you know, the first thought goes to, well, is it my fault? Is it something I did?

And then kind of like you said, you were just like, well, I'm not worth it for you to work things out, to pull it together to, you know, want. Us to all be happy together. Like, I, I'm not good enough. Like if maybe if I was better, if, you know, if I cleaned my room more, maybe you would not fight as much, you know?

And, and it's not, but, but that's, that's where my mind, you know, would sometimes go as a kid is like, gosh, maybe am I, am I lazy? You know, like if I, if I did more around the house, like, would it make, you know, mom less stress? And maybe she wouldn't have fought with dad, you know? Or they wouldn't have gotten into it because of this or that.

And, and it really like, it, it, things go around would go around and around in my head as to why. Because of me, you know, is this happening? And yeah, I think that that's when I could finally realize that, especially growing up and, um, finding out these reasons of why my parents were, would always fight so much.

Like we didn't know, it was just like mom and dad are fighting again. And we wouldn't understand, like, I couldn't tell you any of the dialogue that would go back and forth between them. Like, it just didn't make sense to me. Mm-hmm, why they would fight all the time. And then when I, you know, was growing up, was older.

And then especially when I moved back with my mom and then I started understanding and was told like, oh, this this happened. Or, um, you know, this is the reason between them like that, that they were fighting so much, you know? And, and so things started clicking and making sense, but they're not gonna tell you their personal problems as an adult.

You know, they're not gonna explain all that or be open about it to a child. So, you know, if they had. Like we said before, kind of had that humility to kind of open up about their faults. Like, Hey, you know, I'm not a perfect person. and I've made mistakes and sometimes you hurt a person. You know, sometimes you hurt people, even people that you love and you can hurt them so badly.

Sometimes that even though they forgive, you know, they can't really move past it. And that's where me and your mom are at. You know, if they had said something like that, that could have made more sense to me as a kid. Mm-hmm , but you know, when they just fight and you try to understand, and they're just like, keep out of it.

It's none of your business. Then you have to assume like, well, maybe they don't tell me because it's me. And like you said about the, having to prove yourself, like. It really was that it's just like moving forward, not wanting the same future, not wanting the same relationship that my parents had. I was just like, I have to do everything I can so that I don't fall into that same, you know, mess.

Like mm-hmm, I have to, you know, basically try as hard as I can in a relationship to, to be loved so that I can be noticed and valued. And, and, and I ended up giving too much, like too soon in relationships because of that. Sure. Um, and you know, it was just like, not even, um, Not even just emotionally, but just like even financially, I'd be like, well, I, I would have this thing go through my head where, where I would like, say pay for myself, even though it was like a date, I'd be like, well, no, I'm gonna pay this much because I don't wanna feel indebted to this person because, um, I, I don't want them to have power over me.

Like that was a thing that would go through my head. And that was just because you know, of my parents' relationship. And because I saw how both of them, um, seemed so trapped and I was just like, I don't wanna be trapped. So I'm gonna, you know, pay for myself with this. And I'll only let him pay for that.

And you know, that way, that way he can't have anything over me. And so, yeah, I mean, it really, I mean, the more I talk about it, I will definitely, you know, come up with more, um, reasons of how it affected me, but I mean, it, it's crazy. Just, uh, all the little things. Really stick to you when it comes to, to all of that.

And, and it came out in a bunch of little ways in return. Yeah. In the little ways. And that's, I think what a lot of people, especially who don't come from broken homes, maybe struggled to see it's like, if you just say, oh, there's just this little way that it affected me. Like one thing, even though it was like dozens of things, it might seem insignificant.

But when you put 'em all together, , it's, it's a lot, it's a lot to, and so, oh yeah. I'm tracking with you there. And one of the things you just said though, at the heart of it, it sounds like to me and you correct me, if I'm wrong here, a desire for control was kind of at the center of all of that, that you wanted to make this work.

You wanted to have the opposite of what your parents had. And so you were gonna do everything in your power. You were gonna control every factor that you could to make that a reality. Oh yeah. And that, that is exhausting. Isn't it? Oh, it is so exhausting. And, you know, like for instance, that first relationship, like he used to make fun of me all the time, um, about different things, because I would wanna have all the hard conversations up front and early, and he'd be like, why are you talking about that?

Like, who cares? How many kids we wanna have or are, are gonna have. And I'd be like, sure, well, it's an important conversation. Like we should be having that now. Sure. Um, if you're, if you're saying that you love me, like then there's only one way that that should end, which I would hope is in marriage. Um, unless you're just stringing me along.

And so, you know, I would bring up, you know, those harder conversations and yeah, I would basically get, get laughed at, I would get laughed at saying that I wanted to save myself for marriage. I would get laughed at for wanting to pray before meals. And again, it's just like, how did I get into that first relationship?

And it was just because I felt like maybe nobody else would love me. Yeah. And I think that's such a fear for so many of us, like there's hundreds and eventually thousands of people listening to this. And I know that those of us who come from broken homes, we feel that fear. And what happens, what they've found in the research, especially is that we are more likely to settle in relationships for people that we believe just won't leave.

That's like the only criteria that we go with and not, not that it's like someone who's ultra faithful that they won't leave, but just like, they're kind of just won't leave that's it? Yeah. Like, like maybe because there's no better prospect for them, they don't have ambition or something like that.

That's what some of the research has found. So it's just fascinating to me that we tend to settle because we're afraid that, like you said, no one else is gonna love. Another thing when it came to relationships is, you know, I had that first bad relationship. And then I actually, after I finally ended that relationship, I mean, overall, it was only seven months, so maybe that's not too long, but it was long enough for as bad as it was.

Sure. I actually got into a very beautiful relationship, you know, uh, it was kind of like long distance courting and everything, and that person ended our relationship. He said, you know, you're perfect. You're, you're beautiful. Um, you're all these things. I just, I lost my piece, you know, that's basically all that he could say.

And that just. Confused me to no end. I was like, okay. So I'm not good enough for the people who are bad for me, and I'm not good enough for, you know, I'm perfect, but you know, I'm perfect. But like where, where does this end? Like, is it always gonna be the case that even if a person values me and, you know, cares about me, that they are still going to leave me.

So am I ever going to find someone who is going to stay? And so that just kind of, um, set me down a whole other path of hurt and feeling inadequate. And I, I know he didn't mean to do that, but it was just, that's just where my mind took it, you know? And, and I just went down to thinking, okay, so basically my heart's never gonna be safe.

yeah, man. And we'd end up putting walls around our hearts and sounds like the message that you got from that relationship was you're too much. And you're not enough. It's like you're both and yeah. And not just that relationship, but all, both of your relationships. So, man, there's so much we could say there.

Um, you mentioned a little bit how you dealt with chronic depression and one of the things you did to cope with that was emotional eating. What were some other ways that you coped with the pain in the problems in your life and, and in unhealthy ways? Yeah, so I had, I developed, I guess, uh, an addictive personality because of just whatever the trauma I went through, you could say, and some of the things started off.

Okay. And some of the things just weren't ever okay. Um, at different points, uh, I've gone to alcoholism mm-hmm and that's just because of hurt and it also runs in the family, but same, sorry, I'm just getting a little emotional now. no, no together. No, you're totally fine. It is. It's an emotional topic. And a lot of times we.

Just kinda go through life with all this baggage, like all this brokenness that we carry with us, and then we don't really think about it. We don't really talk about it. And then we finally sit down and think about it and talk about it. And it does, it brings up some very strong emotions. And so no, you're, you're fine.

Yeah. I mean, yeah. We all feel that. So thank you for being vulnerable in that way. Yeah, no. Sure. So obviously, you know, I mean, luckily I could also kind of cut things cold Turkey. Like when I was in college, I was like addicted to diet Coke. And then it was just to the point where like, I just, um, I would have, I don't know how many cans a day and then it was really hurting my stomach and I was just like, you know what, I've gotta cut this.

And I did. And then, um, I got addicted to sports, uh, sport, um, Brazilian jujitsu, and I actually ended up then losing a lot of, uh, weight that I had. Gained from, uh, being addicted to food. And so, um, that was making me feel really good, but then I was just overdoing the training. I was training six days a week.

Um, and then I was wow. On some days training as many as three times a day. And so I was just kind of putting my body through so much, you know, I was starting to break down in, in different ways. And so, you know, it's, that's when a good thing can become a bad thing, , you know sure. Like too much of a good thing is a bad thing.

And I progressed very quickly with that just because I was doing it so frequently and so hardcore, but then, you know, the, the alcoholism was something that just kind of, um, every hard point or loss or, you know, ending of a relationship would kind of bring in this. This defect, uh, in, in me. And luckily I, I could always get out of it.

You know, when I had some, I would have to really focus myself, like, okay, this isn't helping me achieve my greater goal. What do I really want in life? And, you know, prayer was always like the biggest thing that would get me through, especially when I reached about 25. I just really kind of started playing the rosary every day and that was life changing.

And that actually helped me get out of my, you know, alcoholism, streaks. Beautiful. Wow. Incredible. And so you were basically in those things, you were looking for comfort, you were looking for an escape from the pain and the problems in your life. Whenever that message they would surface and approval approval mm-hmm

Yeah. And, and it was because I was just getting, you know, told how good I was getting like at, at different things, you know, when it, when I was dancing or when I got into acting or when it was jujitsu, like I would progress in, in these things because I would just, I always put. Everything into, into something.

And unfortunately, you know, when I do good, I do really good when I do bad. I do really bad. yeah, no, in between it's a, yeah. Not a lot of in between. Yeah. Wow. No, and, and that's, that's a great point about how too much of a good thing. Isn't good. It's bad. That's yeah. You know, even Brazil and jujitsu is like an awesome thing.

It's good to learn how to defend yourself. It's good exercise, like you said, but you took it a little too far. So man, so many lessons there on the flip side, what would you say were two or three things that really helped you cope in healthy ways and helped you heal? You already mentioned prayer. Uh, were there other things as well?

Yes. So, um, in an interesting twist, my husband and. We were actually married a couple years ago and we got divorced and, um, through a lot of prayer and therapy, we both ended up going to therapy. He got back in touch with me after, um, a year that we were separated and, you know, he came back realizing his, uh, his mistakes and saying that, you know, it, it was supposed to be me all along.

And we were actually, uh, able to talk through everything. You know, we, we wanted to make sure like that this wasn't just feelings that we were going back on, that we, we were missing each other for the right reasons. Mm-hmm and that are core reasons for the reason why we had gotten married before were, um, for the right reasons and that we were getting back together for the right reasons.

And it was only, um, When we started talking again, that I realized that he, that he told me that he was going to therapy and I was just like, oh, well, I'm, I'm going to therapy also. Wow. And so that was a big thing for, for both of us. And it was a Catholic therapist and that was very helpful for me because I could have somebody kind of from, uh, who viewed.

The sacrament of marriage, the same way that I did kind of giving me instruction and, uh, helping me through that extremely difficult time. And so I, I really would recommend therapy to, to anyone. Um, if you're a Christian find a Christian therapist, you know, if you're Catholic, Catholic, I think that having somebody that's not family that can give an UN bias.

Um, opinion, um, is so helpful because, you know, if I go to my mom a lot of times she'll be like, oh, you're, you're such a good person. Like, compared to me you're so smart. Like, um, I know you'll, you'll pick the right thing. And it's like, well, that's, that's not necessarily what I, I need to hear. Like, I wanna hear some, some good, helpful information.

I need some guidance, some, uh, yeah, I need guidance. And I went to therapy when, when we got divorced, cuz I was just, I had fallen down a whole alcoholic path again and I was just depressed. I felt like I was gonna go insane. My heart was, you know, ripped out of my chest and that, that really helped having a therapist telling me, you know, what, read.

Write this out, evaluate these things, put back into perspective, how you're gonna rebuild your life in these ways. And yeah, I mean, it was just, it's what I needed. And when I went looking for a therapist, I was recommended this one person and he, his normal, I think therapy is not cheap. I will say that, but when I, I called and explained my whole situation, he was just like, wow, I can tell you really need this.

So I'll make you a deal. If you come every week for eight weeks, I'll cut my price in half. And that was amazing. God also, I was like, okay, like the, yeah, this is what I need. And so, yeah, I would definitely recommend getting therapy, uh, help. Yeah. Prayer was important. Also finding or having, um, you know, one friend or family member that you can really just lean on that can accept you completely, no matter how broken you feel.

I, I think that those things are really important, important, great advice. And I've found so many of those things to be helpful as well, man, that, yeah, the divorce I did know about that. And I remember us chatting a little bit about it on, uh, on social media and you've been through so much and I'm just, I want to go back to the Shenandoah who.

Going through that mess in her life. Like what was going on inside of you? Like, if that was me, I would imagine that there was just so much inside of you that was like, see, you couldn't make it work. Like you couldn't do it exactly. Like you repeated a mistake that you swore you wouldn't do. Oh God, take us in your heart.

Take us in your head. What was going on? Well, it was just, first of all, the reason why it was just like, yeah, here I am. Again. I'm not enough. I, I was good. I was, I was even great. I was perfect in all these ways, but just not good enough. Mm-hmm and feeling crushed because of that, thinking that the person who, who thought you were good enough, good enough to, you know, propose good enough to, to marry you then decides no, actually, you know what you weren't, you know, and mm-hmm, , it just crushed me.

I felt ugly. I felt like. All of the hard work. Like what was the point? Why, why, why was I even a, why was I even trying to be a good person? You know, what did it matter? It's not gonna make me happy. I know bad people who are happier than me. I was thinking, you know? Yeah. And I just remember once I got past the initial shock and hurt, although you never get past the hurt, like the hurt.

Um, I mean, even to this day, like even when I look back on some of the pictures, when we were together before that breakup, like it still brings back some of the hurt. Like some of that doesn't ever go away, you can just try to love more each. and, but like you said, like I was just going around and around in my head, like, oh my gosh, I've tried so hard.

I swore I was not gonna become part of that statistic. You know, of mm-hmm how many people get divorced? You know, every, you know, out of how many couples that get married, what is it like 50% get divorced? And I was just like, that's not gonna be me. I'm gonna have all the hard conversations. I'm gonna pray every day.

I was praying for my future spouse since I was nine years old. And I was just like, really God, really like all of those years of prayers and what did it get me? Like, like, I wasn't even good enough for God to listen to. Mm. And yeah, it was just E I was realizing like, when I think back. Just all the different steps that I, I had taken.

So basically when that happened, when, when we did end up splitting, I was so broken, I really did just kind of give up for a little bit there. And that's why I ended up going into therapy was I was having suicidal thoughts and mm-hmm , you know, like I said, I was drinking so much. My kidney was hurting and I just knew I had to do something otherwise, like the part of me knew, like I deserve a good life.

Like I deserve to be loved and I know God loves me. And I don't wanna say that that's not enough, but it's, you know, it's not gonna, it's not gonna give me children, which I always wanted, you know, which is why. I know I'm my daughter is such a blessing now because she represents how much I am loved now.

So I, I will say that, but, um, yeah, it was just the darkest part of my life because it was my, my worst nightmare had come true. Yeah. And I can't imagine the feeling of hopelessness and despair. And like you said, it drove you to the point of considering suicide. And to be honest with you, it makes sense.

Like, it makes sense, given what you went through, given what happened, it makes sense that you got to that point. It makes sense that you fell into alcoholism. It makes sense that you just wanted to give up. Um, but it's amazing. You didn't, and that's just so inspiring because as you probably know, people like us who come from broken homes, like we're statistically more likely to get divorced ourselves.

Yeah. And, and so, like you said, we don't wanna become the statistic, but it is a real dangerous, real fear that all of us have and you live through that, but you didn't stop there, which is so amazing. So take us to that journey as well. You said you guys both went to counseling, uh, started talking again.

What happened after. like I said, I kind of, I was going to therapy or, and I had just finished my eight weeks and I was actually, um, seeing someone else. Um, although for me it wasn't like, it wasn't serious for me at that point. Mm-hmm I was just like, you know what, I'm just gonna do whatever helps me not hurt right now.

I had even gotten a van and I did a whole van conversion and it was my, uh, I was gonna be leaving to go to Colorado. I thought and then I ended up getting sick. I ended up going get, uh, I had to go to the hospital and it was an emergency that they had to remove my left ovary. Cuz I found out I was stage four endometriosis and I was basically gonna go into septic shock if they didn't remove my ovary, which had just exploded.

And um, And so I was in there for about a week and you know, my now husband, he, he ended up, we had actually run into each other once before he knew this place that I would, um, go to. And so he went there and we kind of talked, but I was just like, you know what, I'm going to be leaving soon. And, you know, once I know what I really want, then, you know, maybe we can end up talking more.

But, um, in my mind, like at the time I wasn't really. Thinking like, yeah. Am I really gonna give this guy another shot? You know, after, um, it had sent me into so much hurt and pain that I was still going through. Yeah. And so then, um, I was in the hospital and he came and he visited me in the hospital and he said that he was fasting for me.

He, he, as it turned out, he didn't eat for three days. Um, because he was so worried about me and he was, um, purposefully fasting for me, which meant a lot. And we were talking a little bit just through messaging and I said, you know, I'm gonna go and take this job over in Virginia. And, uh, once I healed up and so I did, I went and we were just, um, talking through messaging back and forth mm-hmm and having all of the.

You know, I wanted all of my, an my questions answered as to why things, you know, uh, didn't work out as to why he had done the things he had done and why he had, you know, hurt me basically the way that he had. And, you know, I, I, we cleared a lot and I was just open about, you know, again, how I wanted to have a strong spiritual life, how I wanted to have, I basically listed out all the things that I wanted in a spouse again.

And if you don't feel that you can meet up to this, then I don't think things are gonna work out. Um, I had already gone through the whole process of having the. A enrollment that you have to have. It's like a, it's not like the full en enrollment process, but it is called a lack of form. And it's where we had, um, gotten legally married and in the Catholic church, if you get legally married, um, and then divorced without getting married in the church, then you, um, have what's called a lack of form.

So I had already finished all of that process as well. And it was just like, uh, that was such a painful process in itself. And, you know, not to, not even to mention, I had to have my mom go with me to the courthouse when I filled out the divorce papers, you know, which was six, six, uh, what was it? Six months after?

No less than that. Gosh, like I'm getting my. You know, when things are painful, you kind of push it out of your head. So my timeline absolutely get cross, but in any case, it was very soon after we got married that then I was going with my mom to get, you know, divorce, um, papers and everything. So, um, yeah, just having to, to go there and, and telling him all the different things that, you know, I had to take upon myself.

And basically I got all of, all of my anger out, like all of my, my pain out on, on the table for him. Mm-hmm and, um, you know, all, all he could do was say how, how sorry he was. And that basically he knew he had gone down and very bad road spiritually as well, just where he, you know, he had been going and having, he had a lot of doubts and, um, it, he had fallen into just being vain and selfish and he.

Went and got counseling. And he just realized that he, um, he wasn't the person he wanted to be. He wasn't the person that he, that he was when we started dating and, you know, to an obvious degree, like even his family over here in Ireland, they all noticed that he was changed. And so, um, it was just one of those things where a person gets kind of, um, off track in life and kind of scared and kind of rebels.

Or sure or rebels in a huge way. And that was what he was going through. And his answers basically long to make a long story short, not going into too much detail, his answers and his proof were good enough for me. And also we were saying novena individually, but we say the same novena, you know, together.

To St. Joseph. And, um, I had also said when Novin to St. Anne and funny enough, like the day that I finished that Novina, this was back when we were still separated that day. He texted me. And so I was just like, whoa, that's kind of weird. And so then, you know, um, just kind of moved forward from there, uh, with his bump, with his showing up where I was going and then asking if he could see me again.

So it, it all happened after that. Novina and then, you know, we prayed Novin together and just, I live by. The prayer and the saying that God makes all things new. Hmm. I would repeat that again and again, and again, mostly about myself, just feeling so broken, like, but God can make all things new and, and knowing that he can make mean new.

And I definitely believe that also for, you know, for other things and relationships, if it's meant to be, you know, if that there can be healing if, if it's wanted by both people. And if it's a healthy love, basically mm-hmm , um, that you both want the, the best for each other and basically help each other go to heaven that you, you both want to.

Have the best life and make the best life for each other, then God can make all things new. Like no relationship is gonna be perfect. But I think that, you know, the other thing that I've taken out of all of this is that communication is just so important. Like if I'm frustrated, you know, I let him know yes.

And, uh, I say what I expect and you know what, I feel that I'm, I'm not getting the help that I need, then he can step up and, you know, if he's, if he's, um, feeling the same way, then he, he can talk to me and we're just very open. And I that's one of the things that, you know, I had said that I wanted, I just needed, I never wanted a fight.

I, and we haven't fought, you know, we've never yelled at each other, you know, which is, it's so important to me in, in our relationship. You know, we, we can talk things out and. I think that, you know, if everybody can just get to that point where even if it's embarrassing, even if it's uncomfortable, if you can just say what's on your mind and heart, knowing that the person you love that person, they love you.

And that that's enough that that will keep you together. As long as you can be honest with each other, then God love you. That's that's the way to go. Beautiful. Wow, incredible. So then you guys got remarried then and you got married in the church at that. Well, we're actually our whole, um, our whole plan was to get married in the church here and then COVID hit uhoh yeah, yeah.

Little, little detour there. Little detour. Yeah. So we, we got married again. Beautiful. Right before we left in December. And then I came over here first. Um, cuz we had bought different tickets over here. Uh, funny enough before we even knew we were going to get married again because his niece, one of his nieces is my goddaughter, so I was gonna come over.

For Christmas regardless to visit her and the family. Yeah. So he, he made, he got his tickets for another time. So we were both gonna end up here at some point together in, in Ireland. Funny enough. But, um, wow. Yeah. So we're like, yeah, we're gonna get married, you know, legally there in California. And then we will fly over and we'll get married in the church there in Ireland and yeah.

Then, uh, COVID happened and every, yeah, everything changed. Crazy times. Okay. No, that, that all makes sense, so well, beautiful. You guys are together again and that's, so it's just such an inspiring story. I admire you. I admire your husband so much to just thank you. Yeah. Fight through all that and to fight for each other and to, yeah.

Just push on. And man, it must have taken so much, um, humility and so much vulnerability and forgiveness, um, to be able to get to where you are today. So I, uh, I admire that so much. Absolutely. Thank you. And it's a work in progress. It's it's daily, you know, wanting to love that person more daily, forgiving that person on a daily basis at times, you know, like, luckily I'm, I'm kind of past that stage, but I had plenty of times that, you know, I just had to.

Go into my heart and mind and be like the only way I'm gonna be able to live without fear, fear of being hurt again, is if I truly forgive and have trust and that trust is going to be, you know, out of faith, but also, you know, proving himself daily. And basically both of us proving our ourself and our love daily.

And it just has to be that way. It has to be every day you wake up, you have to make a decision that this is what you want and that this is what you're working for. And, you know, all of everything will align with that. If that's the, uh, the mentality that you're having. And I know that that's definitely not the mentality that, uh, my parents had.

And yeah, I really think that that's made all the difference. Yeah, you can grow, you can change, you can heal just those things alone. Just understanding that you can do those things is life changing. It's amazing. So you're living proof that it's possible to repair something that is very broken and, and I love it.

I love it. So thank you for sharing your story. Uh, speaking about being a work in progress, if you would touch on a little bit how your life has transformed since you know, years ago to where you are now. And like you said, things aren't perfect, but you are in a different spot. I mean, I'm at the spot now where I would never suffer abuse.

Like I have the strength now to where I can go, you know, I would look for, um, someone to help me heal, be it therapy or a friend. Someone to talk to. Um, but also I have the strength to just step away or get away from whatever type of abuse that had that strength that I didn't have as a kid or a young adult mm-hmm

And I have just a lot more confidence now that I won't make the same mistakes that my, that my parents made. You know, it was like a fear that hung over me that, oh my gosh, I'm gonna do what they did. And like, what if I just end up being unhappy with someone for the rest of my life? Or what if, you know, I end up taking it out on my kids.

Like, I, I don't even think about things in that way anymore. Cause I have confidence now that. Me the way I focus on, on love and just loving, loving my husband, um, loving my daughter the best that I can each day. If I come from, um, from doing things from the aspect of love, then I don't have to worry about all of that because that those other things they were lacking love.

So if, if love is the core of what I'm doing and how I'm doing things then, well, it's like how they say God is love. And if God's in everything, how can it go wrong? Beautiful. Beautiful. And I, I think it's so appropriate that now you guys have a baby girl, who's really the kinda incarnation of your love that you had.

To work you had to fight for, you had to work through. And, uh, I think it's just so beautiful and she's lucky to have you both as parents. Oh, thank you. Yeah, her name's Arwin Emery Arwin Emery. Beautiful. Beautiful. And I just wanna give you a chance now to talk with everyone listening. Um, especially those people listening who come from broken homes, who mm-hmm may maybe they feel broken.

They feel stuck because of the breakdown of their own family, their parents' marriage. Uh, what, what encouragement, what advice would you give to them? Yeah, I, I would say that your, your parents' mistakes don't define you and that God can make all things new and don't be afraid. do not be afraid to make your own mistakes.

I. That that's, you know, a fear that we all have. Like, we don't wanna make any mistakes, but mistakes will be made guarantee. You know, it's just, if the focus is on the right things, which is, um, living a good life and you, you know, that you are worthy of being loved, then you know, if you know you're worth, then other people will know you're worth and you have to make your worth known and just not accept less than you deserve.

And you have to be, maybe some people have to be more vocal with it. And some people maybe have to find ways to remind themselves more often of it, but truly knowing that you are loved and that you deserve to be loved. I think that's one of the biggest things that has helped me as well. And yeah, just your other people's mistakes.

Don't define you. Beautiful. If people wanna connect with you, what's the best way to do that? Yeah, sure. Um, she Lawson S H E N L a w S O N. gmail.com. That puts my personal email. And yeah, if you have any questions, feel free to, to hit me up there. Jen. Thank you so much. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your vulnerability.

Um, it's, you're a brave woman for coming on, like telling your story because so many people, as we discussed would rather keep this stuff quiet. And so thank you for, uh, for doing it in a way that was also, um, respectful of the people involved. Um, I know, you know, it's not always easy to, to do that and sometimes, um, it's a difficult balance to talk about the brokenness in our past.

And so thank you for, for trying to hit that balance. I know it's a difficult thing to do that I sometimes struggle with as well, but thank you for sharing and for, um, just being such a beautiful example of how we don't need to repeat the brokenness that we saw in our families. Absolutely. No, thank you so much for having me.

And I, I hope, you know, even if it helps one person, then yeah, then I'm happy to share.

This is so beautiful. When I was listening to that interview before we published it, it honestly made me tear up. It was just so moving. So beautiful, such a great story. And there's so many lessons in it. One of the lessons that I took away is that even if you stumble, even if you fall, you're never too far gone, you're never out of the fight.

There's always hope to redeem your story, to redeem your life. And like she proves to even redeem your marriage. You just have to be willing to ask for. And be willing to put the work in. And so if that's you right now, if you are struggling in some way, I just want you to know that we're here for you. You are not alone.

We'd love to hear from you. And one way that you can do that one way that you can reach out is by sharing your story. We wanna hear your personal story. And some of the benefits of doing this is that it's actually healing for you on a neurobiological level. It makes your brain healthier to reflect on your story.

And there's been studies that have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed. They're less anxious, they're healthier, they're happier and so on. And if you share your story with someone else, someone who can listen with empathy, that's also healing on a neuro biological level.

And so your story beyond just helping. It can also help someone else. It can give them guidance and give them hope who maybe are struggling. Maybe they come from a similar background that you do in your story, can give them the guidance and hope that they need. And so if you wanna share your story, it's actually really simple to do it first, go to restored ministry.com/story again, restored ministry.com ministry singular slash story on that page, fill out a form quick form, tell a short version of your story, and then we'll turn that story into an anonymous blog article.

And so we would love to hear from you. So share your story with us today. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 42. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been helpful for you in any way, I invite you to subscribe. So you can hear more and be sure to share this podcast episode with someone that you know, who could really use.

Always remember you are not alone. We're to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#041: How to File the FAFSA if Your Parents are Divorced or Separated | Alex Driscoll & Mike Rossman

Statistically, children of divorce are less likely to attend college. Further, they’re less likely to receive financial support from their parents for college. 

To pay for college, most young people apply for government aid by filling out the FAFSA. But if your parents are separated, divorced, or remarried, the process can seem confusing. 

Today, we speak with two experts to offer guidance on:

• How to answer certain FAFSA questions depending on your parents’ marriage

• Myths to watch out for 

• Practical tips that are difficult to find on Google

• A video and infographic that’ll make the process simple for you

Watch FAFSA video

View infographic

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

You've probably heard us say that children of divorce are less likely to go to college to continue their education. Statistically, why is that primarily because they're also less likely to receive financial support from their parents for college in the first place. And why is that? I think one of the reasons is that divorce is very expensive or at least it can be, I know families that have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in attorney fees.

I kid do not. It's. And so young people and, and parents are left figuring out how to pay for college and one obvious way to do so in the United States, at least is to use a government financial aid, getting government grants or loans by filing the, the FSFA the free application for federal student aid.

But if you've never done that, it can seem complex and confusing, especially if your parents are recently separated, divorced, or remarried, that adds a. Of confusion to the process. And so in this episode, we're gonna tackle that problem. We're gonna make the process simple. We'll be answering some of the most important questions for parents and young people from divorce separated or remarried families.

And so whether you're a parent. Who's searching for answers for your child, or maybe you're a young person, a student who's heading off to college. This is gonna help you a lot. What you're gonna get out of this episode is we're gonna talk with two financial aid experts and they give their advice on how to answer certain questions on the application, on the FAFSA, depending on your parents.

Marriage situation. We also touch on some myths that you should watch out for. They give practical tips that are gonna be difficult to find on Google. You really need to talk to someone who knows their stuff in this area. And then at the end, we give a, a video and an infographic that'll make this process, especially if you're someone who's coming from a broken home and.

It maybe happened recently where your parents separated or divorced, it's gonna make the process much simpler for you. And by the end, you're gonna have the knowledge that you need to apply for financial aid. Hopefully get the funding that you, or maybe your child needs so that they are, or you can continue your college career.

And so keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host. Joey Bonelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 41. And today I have the pleasure of talking with Alex and Mike two experts in the field of financial aid.

Alex Driscoll currently works as assistant director of financial aid at Russell Sage college. In Troy, New York on a typical day, she helps first time freshmen and transfer students to better understand the financial aid process and the awards that they're eligible for. Alex graduated from the state university of New York at Albany with a bachelor's of science and political science and a master's in educational administration and policy studies.

She currently lives in Troy New York, where you can typically find her perusing, the farmer's market or kayaking in the Hudson. My other guess is Mike Rossman. Mike works as a financial aid assistant at Russell Sage college in Troy New York. His passion is to help students better understand the college experience and to build life skills that will translate to successful future careers.

My graduate from Sienna college with a bachelor's degree in psychology and from the college of St. Rose with a master's in college student services administration. He lives in New York with his wife, Kelly. And so again, I'm really honored to have these two experts on this process. Join us today to hopefully answer your questions and to make the process simple.

So here we go,

Alex and Mike, thank you so much for coming on the show. Yeah, of course. Happy to. Thanks for having us, but I wanna, I wanna dive right in. So you both are experts when it comes to financial aid. And so there's so many people out there who, who need this guidance. That the first question is really basic.

When someone goes through this financial aid application process, uh, how long does it typically take to actually fill out the whole form? So for new students that are filing for the first time, Joey, um, it usually takes about an hour or so. Uh, for some people it could take a little bit less, some people, it could take a little bit longer.

It really depends how much information they have to put in. If they're using both of their parents. Different parameters there for people that are renewing, um, or doing it the, the second, third, fourth time around, usually more like a half an hour, cuz most of your information already imports in when you start.

Okay. That makes so much sense. So it really depends if you're first year are coming back again. And probably also, if you need to gather information from different people or different sources that could make it a little bit longer in some. Yeah, that's, that's the one thing that really takes a while, especially if you need to get specific tax information for your parents, um, or even tax information for yourself, if you had to file.

Um, some of that can take a little bit of time to request if you don't already have it. Every, every situation is different, but for the most part around an hour for new people in half an hour or so for renewals. Great. I, I do wanna mention it does have a safe key. So if you did get like halfway through and realize that you're missing some paperwork that you need, um, as a safe key so that you can leave the Faxon pick it up at another time when you have your P.

So it doesn't have to be all done in one, in one sitting, basically I feel bad for anyone. Who's not realized that and they filled out the form and almost gotten done and then just closed it out. That is a great feature. Thanks for mentioning that. Mm-hmm so when it comes to the actual FAFSA, uh, what kind of questions are on there?

When it comes to your parents, paint a picture, if you would, in people's minds of what exactly they're gonna be answering. All right. Sure. So, um, it's going to ask for at least one of your parents information, including their, uh, date of birth, possibly their social, uh, first initial, last name it's going to ask for, um, their marital status date.

If they're divorced or married, um, or widow. And it's going to ask for their tax information as well as investment information, um, and other banking information. I see. So definitely something that you wanna do with a parent or at least have them available to answer questions. If you're a student who's trying to fill this out on your own, it would be pretty difficult, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Even if you have your parents' taxes, um, for a student, it can be really confusing to kind of try to decipher that and put that information into the FAFSA. That makes sense. Maybe unless there's some budding account. Accountants out there, accounting majors who, uh, like going through taxes, but I think that's probably not most of us and the tax information too.

Joey is based on two years prior to when you're filling it out, which makes it even more, a little bit more confusing than it originally would be. Um, cuz they're assuming that everyone would've had their taxes done two years before. Um, and some people might not have the current taxes done. So they used two years prior.

Yeah. That is, that is why they switched to the two years prior is because a lot of people didn't have. There one year ago taxe is done. So in this case, it be your 20, 20 taxes. A lot of people don't have those completed yet. Got it. Okay. That's really helpful because you could start the process and then be sitting there and like, well, I need to file my taxes first, which isn't a simple task for a lot of people, right?

Okay, great info. So I, I, I think this is all making sense. I wanna go into some different scenarios for different people who maybe going through this process, that the first is where, uh, parents are separated. So they're not technically divorced, but they're separated. And I was curious, according to the financial aid form, when are parents consider quote unquote separated?

Parents are considered separated. Really? When they, the term terminology they use is living as a married couple when they stop living as a married couple, um, this usually requires them to be living in different places, but sometimes people still live together, even though they're considered separated. Um, also in some states they have specific legal separations, um, which make it a little bit more.

Truthful, I guess, as soon as people decide that they're kind of living separate lives and not acting as a married couple anymore, they're considered separated. Yeah. I, I just wanna jump in and say, um, marital status can definitely be confusing. It's important to know that it's your marital status as of the day you file the FAFSA.

So if your parents. Had divorced in February and you're filing the FAFSA in March, then they would be considered divorced. It is self reported. Uh, sometimes colleges may ask for proof of separation in the form of two different mailing addresses. So they may ask for like a utility bill from each parent to prove that they have different addresses.

If they're separated. Okay. That's really helpful. And I'm glad you brought up that scenario, cuz I think that could be confusing to people who are going through this situation. So in one case you said they could be separated, but living together or separated, not living together. Uh, how should you answer the questions on the form?

Uh, in both of those scenarios where the parents are living together, um, but separated or they're not living together and separated. So if they're living together you're or if they don't live together, sorry, you're gonna wanna. Answer for whichever parent you live with more. Um, if you live with both parents equally, if you spend 50, 50, uh, time with them, you wanna provide information for whoever's provides the most support for you.

Um, usually they consider it, uh, at least 50 or more percent of your support per the year. If they do live together, you'll have to answer for both of your parents. If they're separat. Because you're still in the same household. You can't prove that they're living in two separate places. So they use both parents.

That that is correct. Um, and that is self-reported, but yeah, if your parents are, uh, separated, but they're technically still married and they still live together, you are gonna wanna wanna report both parents' information. Okay. That makes sense. And so Alex, when you say self report, it means basically you choose what to say, is that right?

Yeah, because in a lot of times, um, when parents are separated, they're legally still married. So that. Yeah, they self-report, that they're separated. And like I said, the, the college, um, You're applying to may require more information such as those two separate utility bills. I see. So it depend, so that kinda goes college by college.

Okay. No, that makes a lot of sense. And, uh, Mike, one thing that you said, um, you said when, which parent is supporting you, uh, does that mean financial support? Like who's paying for your food, who's who you're living with most, like you said, if it's 50, 50, Or maybe one more than the other. Um, what does support, I guess exactly mean in that case?

Yeah. I mean, I think it hit it on the head with, with everything you just said there it's, whoever's providing the most financial support for whatever you're doing at that time. So if they're paying for your housing, they're paying for your food, paying for your schooling, depending on where you're going to high school.

If it's a, it's a private school. Anything there, um, any form of financial support whoever's doing the most there. Perfect. Okay. And now turning to a situation where the parents are divorced in a similar vein, uh, at what point are the parents considered actually divorced? Is it, you know, when they file for divorce, is it when the.

Court, you know, signs, the final papers. What does that look like? So, yeah, it is, um, it is when the court signs those final papers. So again, it's, it's pretty rare, but there are some circumstances in which the college may request, um, proof of that divorce and that would be the court send documents with that date.

Okay. That makes sense. So up to that point, even if your parents are going through the divorce process, they're technically still just separated. So you'd resort to the info that we just covered that makes. And then in that, in that situation where your parents are legally divorced, uh, how should you answer the parent questions on the form again, if they don't live together, if they do live together.

So this is actually gonna depend on, um, which year the parents got divorced. Um, so it's different if they were divorced before 2020 in this case, Or 2020 or 2021. But in, in both cases, you only need to, uh, report one parent's income. So, because this is where it gets a little confusing because the taxes go back two years, say your parents were divorced in 2020, in 2019.

They may have filed, um, their taxes, married, filing jointly, or married, filing separately. And they would need to put that as their, uh, filing says in the FAFSA, but they would only need to report one income in this case. And again, that is the parent that you live with, uh, 51% of the time or that you receive financial support from 51% or more.

Okay. So you would basically need their. W2. And for anyone who's not aware, I'm assuming most people are aware what that is, but that's just the piece of paper that shows you what you made the taxes that were withheld for the prior year or any year in the past. So it sounds like the W2 would be one of the most useful things to have in that situation though.

I'm sure the official tax documents or the software they're using would show it separated as well. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. A lot of times, um, just would have tax returns if you have like. 2020 tax or 2019 tax returns. That's also helpful to use a lot of information's listed on that. Okay. And just speaking a little bit more to that situation, I think you made that absolutely clear.

Um, but if your parents somehow are divorced yet living together, which as we were discussing before the interview, that is a rare situation, but it does happen in that situation. Like you said, Alex, it's just whoever, whichever parent you're spending more time together with, or, or what does that look like?

Or I guess in that case you would, it would be. Explain that if you would a little bit more, so again, it would still be 51% of your support. So in this case they live together, but maybe one parent, you know, buys majority of your clothes or buys majority of your food, um, or pays majority of the bills.

That'd be the parent that you receive 51% of your support from, and you'd wanna include that parent's information. That makes sense. And moving to, uh, a situation where maybe one of your parents or both of your parents are remarried. Um, should you answer questions in that situation about your stepparents?

So you only need to answer questions about your stepparents if they're married to whichever parent you're using on the FAFSA. So say you're using your father on the FAFSA and he's been remarried. Um, you only have. Put in information for your stepmother. Um, even if your mother was also remarried, you wouldn't have to do anything on that side, if you're only using your father's information.

Yeah. Just to elaborate on that a little bit. So, um, scenario here is, you know, say you're living with your father and he's remarried to your stepmother. We run into this kind of a lot where the student will say, well, my stepmother doesn't doesn't provide any support. Do I still need to include her tax information?

And the answer is yes, if you live ly their father and he's remarried to a stepmother, their tax filing status is most likely. Either married, filing jointly or married filing separately, and you would need to include both of their taxes. And again, that's a, that's a federal regulation that's really helpful to, to know.

So basically they do need to be legally married though, if they're just living together, uh, like if it's a girlfriend boyfriend's situation, then you wouldn't include that information at that point. Is that correct? That's right. Mm-hmm . Okay. And are there any, uh, specific questions, I guess, on the form that may be confusing in that situation, that would be helpful for people listening right now to know, okay, this particular question, this is how you answer it.

Um, I feel like one of the most important things that again, can be really confusing is just, it is the status as the date they filed the FAFSA. So like I said, I mean, if, if a parent was just married last month and now you're filing the FAFSA, he was married to a stepparent. You now need to include that step parent's information.

I think that's one of the most confusing parts. No, that's Claire. And I'm glad you're bringing that back because it, it definitely, um, gives a, a good, uh, way to distinguish between mother two include it or not. Mm-hmm . And, and it's at the point that you finished the F, so like, if you were to start it in January and then like, forget about it and begin it again in March, but your parent was married in February, then you would go with the info at that point in time when you're finishing, is that.

That's correct. Yep. It's gonna be end of the date that you're submitting the FAFSA. Great. Okay. That, that is clear and going through some other scenarios. What if you live with someone who, who isn't your parent, like maybe you're living with, uh, grandparent or cousins or someone else, how does that work?

So. Unless you're legally adopted by someone else. Um, as long as you can still get in contact with your parents, you still have to report information for your parents. So even if you live with an aunt or an uncle, um, a grandmother, a grandfather. Um, unless they've legally adopted you, you still have to report information only for your parents, right?

There's there's also a question that asks if you are an emancipated minor, or, um, in a legal guardianship as a turn by the court. Um, and that's gonna be kind of state by state because not every state recognizes emancipated minors. So that may be depending on what state you are in. But if you're claiming that you're in a legal guardianship with someone who's not your biological parent, uh, most of the time you do have court paperwork that says that, and you would need to provide that.

To the colleges that you're applying to after you file the FAFSA. Okay. So you need to collect all that and send that in that, that makes sense. And when you say emancipated minor, would you explain what that means for anyone listening? Who isn't clear on that? Yeah. So again, this, this goes state by state because not every state recognizes emancipated minor status, but if you are a teenager and you are, you know, living with a parent and.

Not a safe situation. You can, you can go through the process of becoming an emancipated, minor, meaning basically that, even though you're below the age of 18, you are now essentially in charge of yourself. So your parents no longer take care of you. They're not supporting you. You don't have their health insurance, things like that typically a year out on your own.

Yeah. And, and that does happen. So it's, I'm glad that you, uh, explain that. I think sometimes, uh, yeah, sometimes people might not completely understand. Certain terms. So thanks for like breaking it down and making it simple. Especially for me. I, I don't know if I could have defined what an emancipated minor was.

I appreciate that. Mm-hmm you touched on this Alex, but when we're talking about situations where maybe you're not required to provide information about your parents, would that be one of them? Like when are you not required to provide information about your parents? If you are a dependent student, unfortunately, if, if you're a dependent student, There's gonna be a list of questions on the FAFSA that just deal with your dependency status.

You know, if you're working at a master's degree, if you're married, if you're over 24, you're considered independent. Or if you have children that, that you support, you're considered independent. If you are considered a dependent, you don't mean any of those criteria. And let's just say, you don't communicate with your parents anymore.

You haven't spoken to. Unfortunately for federal purposes, you do still need to provide their information on the FAFSA. And that can definitely be problematic, but that's something that college is just, they, they can't get around. There's, there's not really a work around for that because these are federal regulations.

So unfortunately, in this case, if your parents are still supporting you and you don't have that court paperwork saying that they're not eco guardianship or emancipated minor, You would still need their information. Joey building off of that too. There's there's some outlying kind of scenarios where even when you're dependent, it, it's impossible to, to get parent info.

So if your parents are incarcerated, um, if you've left an abusive home, not able to locate your parents, things like that. There, there is an option on the FAFSA to, to not report parent information, but if that does happen, they can't create an EFC for you, which is an estimated family contribution. . If you provide a FAFSA with no EFC, it's considered an invalid FAFSA and that student would not be eligible for any federal aid.

Oh, I see. Okay. So, okay. So that really is a difficult situation. If you are not able to get the information on your parents and there's probably other situations where parents just like, don't really wanna help out, hopefully that's a rare situation, but, um, is that a similar situation where you're kind of in a tough spot or is there anything that you can do if your parents refuse to give you the information that.

In that situation, um, I'd recommend calling the colleges that you're applying to after you've completed the FAFSA, because you, you can submit the FAFSA without parent information, but again, it's gonna come back as invalid, unless you meet one of those, uh, dependency criteria. And at that point, the college still gets the, uh, FAFSA.

It's just not considered valid and they may reach out to. But I'd also recommend, um, on the students part reaching out to the college and kind of explaining your situation. Colleges tend to kind of handle that differently, but unfortunately, the situation is just, you still speak to your parent, your parent, but they don't wanna provide their information.

You would be considered ineligible for federal aid. So you would need to get that in most cases. Okay. No, that's great info. And so that puts you in a tough position. So any of you listening right now, um, if, if that's your situation, uh, maybe you need to sit down with your parent or maybe, uh, parent, if you're listening right now, if you're a parent listening right now, that may be important to sit down with your, uh, ex spouse and talk with them about how important this is not only for.

Your child, but for both of you in terms of getting, you know, your child through college, and so that I'm sure it could be a difficult situation. If you're, you know, a young person who is facing this, um, it may take a little bit of work, but you may need to go through and explain to your parent, like, this is why this information's so important.

Typically that's better to explain the why first and then ask for what you want, instead of just saying, I need this information. And so certainly it's difficult situation. Um, I'm glad you guys are here to talk about this. I want to turn a little bit, uh, to a, a related topic, but a little bit different than what we just discussed.

And that is what if your parents were to separate or divorce after you've submitted your financial aid application? Again, let talk, we let we talked about for the FAFSA, it's your parents status as of the day that you filed the FAFSA. So if you file the FAFSA in March and in June, your parents, um, separated or divorced, You don't change your FAFSA at that point.

Um, because it's after the date that you've submitted and it would affect it for next year's FAFSA. You finish your freshman year and you're ready to go into your sophomore. You complete your FAFSA. At that point, your parents' status would be separated or divorced. And it's gonna come up with a flag on your FAFSA when the school reports it, that says.

You've changed your parents' Mari marital status. Most of the time, they just kinda leave it at that. It makes the school aware, but most of the time there isn't additional information needed about that. Things happen. Definitely. Okay. That makes sense. So that goes back to that principal when you submit it, whatever information is true at that point, that information applies to that year.

And then in prior years you're gonna adjust it based on what's true in that. okay. And going back to some of the practicals when it comes to the form, cause I think it can be really intimidating. I remember it, it being pretty intimidating, especially the first time I went through it. Uh, when does the FSFA open and close?

What I'm looking for? Dates there, if that's not clear. So it always opens on October 1st of whichever year. Prior to that academic year. Um, so for example, for the 20 21, 20 22 academic year, which is coming up right now, the FSA opened this past October 1st, 2020. And for that specific eight year, you can file, um, until the summer that follows the academic year.

So in this case, um, it would be June 30th, 2022. Okay. So those are the deadlines. That's good to know and good to know when it opens and if someone were not to apply right away. And let's say they wait till, I don't know. The beginning of June to apply. Is there less of a chance that you would get a aid or cuz I think there's this idea out there that maybe there's this fund with money in it that the federal government has and then once the get money's gone, you're done.

So would you clear up that a little bit? So yeah, this is kind of those kind of weird. Myths that I feel like everyone is told. I was definitely told that you have to play the FAF as soon as possible to get the most federal aid. Yeah. That's not a thing. Yeah. A lot of federal aid. I mean, it just goes by that that FC that Mike was talking about earlier that, uh, estimated financial contribution has made family contribution and that's not gonna change no matter when you file ergo.

Your financial aid awards and federal government are not gonna change no matter when you file. Now, what I will say is that some colleges may have scholarship deadlines and those can sometimes pertain to the FSIS. Those are not funds from the federal government, but rather from the individual institutions.

So I always recommend filing as early as you possibly can. To get the most institutional aid, but in terms of federal aid, you can file whenever it's not gonna affect that. Okay. And I bet you're a financial aid advisor at the college you're coming to will love you as well for getting it done. Not at the last minute.

yeah. We, we love to see them done early. Definitely be. And especially if you do, if, you know, if you have kind of one of these nontraditional scenarios and you have questions, It's also good to file as soon as possible, so that you have time to reach out to your, uh, financial aid counselors at your college.

They have time to reach out to you and you can resolve all those things before the semester start. That's definitely important. That's really helpful, cuz I think that's one thing going into this interview, um, that, yeah, maybe I wasn't totally clear on, but you really can and should be relying on your financial aid office.

Like they're there to help you people like you two are in those offices. Whose job it is to assist these students. So it's such a great resource to not be afraid to actually reach out email, call, whatever, go in and see them. And so I think that's one big takeaway for me. Yeah. I mean, college is all about relationships.

Um, Rachel, you as a student build. And that can include financial aid. Yeah, definitely. Don't be afraid of your financial aid counselors. We we're overall nice people I don't know about Mike, but, uh, no, I'm just kidding. for the most part I mean, that, that's one real common misconception, especially since we, we deal with money, um, is, is that people assume that sometimes there's myths that we're out to get people and we're, we're trying to stop people from getting stuff.

But our only job is to make sure that people. Are able to get as much aid as they can to get as much support as they can while they're going through college. Um, so that they can come out and be successful on the other side. Love it. Yeah. So you're there to guide them and it's not like this. It's not like you're giving money out of your own wallet so that they're thinking like, oh, they wanna give as little as ly as possible to, to me, but you're actually trying to, yeah, like you said so well to get them the help that they need so they can get through college and go on and be successful in their career.

Right. Are there any other myths or. Uh, conceptions, like what are some of the most popular ones when it comes to, uh, financial aid and, and this whole process that can be kind of confusing. So really quick, one of the big things that we get a lot of students, I think they think one of two things, either financial aid is just loans, which is not the case or financial aid is not loans.

Financial aid is really, it's a big umbrella. That encompasses, you know, all the scholarships, all of the grants, all of the loans, basically anybody that's not paid out of pocket, that's going towards your education is considered financially. You know, FAFSA refers to, uh, subsidized unsubsidized, student loans, federal loans, and then the federal Pell grant, the FAFSA can affect things with institutional financial aid, like your scholarships, things like that.

But it really just pertains to, to those two loans and the federal Pell grant that I think that's really useful for people to know. Cuz I think you're right. There's a lot of misconception there. Mike, are there any myths that you see kind of in your position where people are coming in and maybe they haven't done their research and they're just confused about some things, any, any myths there?

I mean, I, I wouldn't say any overall myth. I think just people think that it's going to be more confus. It's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy people go into filling out the FAFSA thinking that it's gonna be confusing. Then they go ahead and get confused while actually filling it out. Um, so take it slow.

Um, there's no reason to rush. Um, if you have any questions while you're filling out the FAFSA, you need help. Um, they have a federal student aid information center that you can call, um, with dedicated specialist that can walk you through the different parts of the facet. Tell you what kind of information you should be providing anything like.

so, like I said, no reason to rush, make sure you got all the right information in there and you'll be good to go. Excellent. Alex, anything to add to that, to a parent who's listening or to a young person on advice for getting through the process and, and doing it successfully and working well with their financial aid advisors.

Yeah. I mean, I always say the, the first one is the most difficult. When you're going in your freshman year, you're doing the FAFSA for the first time. That that's the hardest one. And then after that, you know, it, it just gets easier every year that you do it and you kind of get more used to it. You hear a lot of, kind of like horror stories about the FAFSA financially in general, but I always say is.

You commute to work every single day. But the one day that you remember is the one where you were stuck in a traffic jam and you were an hour and a half late. Most of the time, that's not the case of the FAF. So most of the time, you know, you, you get right through it and you have no problems and you have no problems there financially, but you really only hear about those like crazy scenarios that people have.

They're they're not very common. And you'll find that, especially in, in the most recent years, they've really made the FAFs. Pretty understandable. There's little like information tabs on each of the questions. So if you're like, oh, I'm not sure what they're trying to ask here. That'll give you more information right on there.

Um, there's a lot of videos out there. People put in the FAFSA, you know, tips, helpful, things like that. Um, and again, don't be afraid of your financial aid office. We're here to help. And if you haven't received a financial aid offer letter, it's probably because the institution hasn't received your FAFSA.

So definitely check in with them. we'd love to communicate, uh, with students even before they arrive at our college. Great. And, uh, that no, that's really helpful. And it sounds like one of the biggest things is just getting started. Just start the process. And if you mm-hmm, hit a roadblock along the way. Uh, save it, figure out the answer, go back, get it going.

But I think this can, it can be, especially for parents who are busier, maybe they're going through a lot, uh, with a divorce or something like that. Students who have a lot going on in their lives. Uh, it may be kind of intimidating where it's like this huge thing that I have to get done. But if you just take it one piece at a time, that's what I hear you both saying, take it one piece at a time, do what you can and then, you know, aim to get it done.

And if you need help, ask for help. Mm-hmm yeah, yeah. Never be afraid to ask questions. You wanna make sure that everything is on there. So you're getting as much aid as possible. So reach out, use your resources, um, do whatever you can to, to make sure you're putting all the right information on. There is also just a quick, you know, note here.

There's also a FAFSA. So, if you don't have access to a laptop or a computer, for whatever reason, you can complete the FAFSA. Right. On an app, it was created a few years ago. I've gone through it and it's, it's pretty, pretty easy to use. So if you have a smartphone, that's another option for you. That's a great tip.

I did not know that. And. Along those lines. Are there any other resources or, or tips that you guys would, would leave with everyone listening? I mean, there's, if you go on just say YouTube or anything like that, they also have FAFSA walkthroughs where you can take a look, see what kind of information is going to be asked for before you even start.

If that's something that interests you, um, it kind of walks through step by, step on what all the questions are. So you know what information you're gonna need before you start? Yeah. A, a lot of college. And even some high schools have like FAFSA events where they'll have like computer labs open and you can sign up and you can actually do the event or do the FAFSA with someone.

I know the college at Mike and I work out, we're doing a big FAFSA event coming up here soon. So if anyone hasn't completed it, um, and they're accepted at our college, they can come to that and we walk 'em through the whole process. So that's, that's a pretty common thing. All the colleges that I've worked at have those kind of days.

So if you're, you know, really struggling, I'd say to check into one of those inquire about whether or not the colleges you've applied to have that option. You guys are great. Thank you so much for, uh, for all of your wisdom, all the practical bits of advice. I know this is gonna help, uh, a lot of people who maybe feel stuck or they feel kinda confused about this whole process.

So thank you both for, for being here, uh, for, for giving us your time and your expertise. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for having. Yeah, we, we really appreciate your time and letting us come on and talk

in closing out the show. We have a few resources for you guys. So one, we have a video for you. It walks you through the financial aid application process showing you each step in the process. And you can even put this up on your screen while you're filling out the. Application, it can help guide you through each section.

So we have a link to that video in the show notes, but like Mike said, you can really just search on YouTube, FFA walkthrough, video, financial aid, walkthrough video, and you'll be able to find something similar. We also have a really helpful infographic for you that helps you determine whose parents info.

You need to be adding to the financial aid application depending on your situation. So really well designed easy to understand infographic. So that's also linked in the show notes. And then lastly, If you wanna avoid debt altogether, which is honestly the best thing that you can do. And I understand that for some people, it feels like it's impossible.

If you wanna avoid that altogether and figure out some creative ways to cash flow your way through college, meaning you're not taking out debt, you're paying cash gradually as you go through college, check out the book debt free degree by Anthony O'Neil. The, the subtitle of that book is the step by step guide to getting your kid through college.

Without student loans. And we'll add a link to that in the show notes, Anthony O'Neal is really awesome. Speaker writer, podcast host, and he gives really practical ideas on how you can get through college without taking out a ton of debt. It's a huge problem in our world today, especially in the United States where we take out tons and tons of debt to go through college.

And then in the end we gotta pay it all back and it takes years and years and years, and it really hurts our journey. To financial freedom. And so Anthony Neil has a lot of great content, make sure to check him out and in the future, we're gonna be producing more content on this topic, like creating a, a step by step blog article that will give you, you know, the main points that we covered in this episode and help you go through all those.

So make sure to join our email list, if you wanna stay tuned for that. And you can do that by going to the show notes page on that page, there's a form you can fill out and just send your name, your email, and then you can stay in touch with. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 41.

Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular. Dot com slash four one also quick shout out to Erin Hasso for her research and her help in producing this episode. Erin, thank you so much for the research you did the content you put together and making this interview happen really, really helpful. You're awesome.

Thank you, Erin. And thank you for listening. If this has been useful, I invite you to subscribe and to share the podcast with someone, you know, who could use it. Always, remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

I Built Walls Around Myself

4 minute read

This story was written by Ashlyn at 27 years old. Her parents divorced when she was 24 years old. She gave permission for her story to be shared.

HER STORY

Over the past year, since writing my first story for the Restored blog, I have been forced to come to terms with the fact that my parents' marriage really is over. When the divorce happened—I knew it happened—but there was still a part of me that had a minor ounce of hope that maybe, somehow God would repair their marriage and renew my family. But it didn't quite happen that way.

My father recently got remarried, and now my mother is engaged to be married later this year. Watching your parents fall in love with other people comes with a great deal of mixed emotions. On one hand, I do desire my parents to be happy, on the other hand, I feel angry and betrayed.

HOW THE DIVORCE MADE HER FEEL

I remember when my parents first got divorced, I spent hours in the Adoration chapel at Church begging God to heal my family. Asking for basically an impossible miracle. I didn't realize that I have still been praying this prayer for the past 3 years since the divorce.

When my dad got remarried, it finally hit me like a ton of bricks that this prayer had not been answered in the way I desired. I grew angry at God. The anger I had towards my parents shifted towards God. Over the past 6 months, since my dad got remarried, I've sat in church unsure of the relationship I have with God because of this anger.

I have told God that I am angry and I have told God that He betrayed me; that He didn't answer my prayers. With all this being said, I did have a moment of realization: for the past 3 years, instead of doing the work and taking the time to heal, I've been spending so much of my energy being angry. It is time for me to start healing.

HOW HER PARENTS' DIVORCE HAS IMPACTED HER

I built walls around myself. They are walls that were built by immense anger and feelings of betrayal. I hate talking about my family as I feel shame and embarrassment. There is also a level of justification I feel like I have to provide about my family. But like I said, I realized I had spent so much time and energy building walls out of anger that I wasn't spending any time focusing on any real healing.

Recently, I started seeing a new counselor and I am learning how to put up boundaries with my parents. I did not go to my dad's wedding because I wasn't ready and I couldn't bring myself to witness a new marriage. My dad's new relationship has hurt me and I couldn't be in support of something that has hurt me. I also am more honest about my feelings, and I speak more freely about my parents’ divorce because sharing my story has helped me find healing.

I am also rebuilding my relationship with Christ. I realized He isn't the one who made the decision for my parents. I realized that God is still working and does still keep His promises even if they look different than what I would expect. God is not done yet. He is healing me and I do believe He will heal my family and I will see new unity someday in my family.

ADVICE TO SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS HAVE DIVORCED OR SEPARATED

The best advice I would share with someone whose parents are divorced is to seek counseling as soon as possible. Do not put your healing on the back burner. If you do, you will build walls as I did. Create boundaries and be honest with where you are at with processing the divorce and healing.

It is perfectly okay to decline meeting your parents' new partners. It is okay to not attend family events for a bit if it will hurt you. You need to focus on your healing, not keeping your parents happy. Seek Christ, even when it is so hard and even if you are angry.

The cool thing about Jesus Christ is He already took our own wounds upon Himself by dying on the cross. He can handle us being angry at Him and telling Him so. In fact, tell Him how you feel because He will listen and He will answer your prayers. He will work in your life and you will receive His grace and see the fruits of His work in ways you never imagine.

The final piece of advice I would suggest is to find a community of other adults who have had similar experiences as you've had with all of this. Through Restored, I have made friends with whom I can share my struggles, and who share their struggles with me. We can share things with one another without feeling ashamed because we have both lived through it and understand.

HOW TO HELP YOUNG PEOPLE FROM DIVORCED OR SEPARATED FAMILIES

I think so many people who have divorced parents feel a level of shame, especially if they come from strong Catholic or Christian communities who teach that divorce is wrong. I think each parish or diocese should have a ministry or support group for teens and/or adults who are maybe struggling with their parents’ divorce.

I think divorce is often a "taboo" subject and that is why many of us struggle to find a place within the church because somehow we feel guilty even though we were not the ones who made the decision to divorce. I think also encouraging married couples that it’s okay to receive marriage counseling even if they aren't having particularly large struggles in their marriage.

Marriage counseling should be encouraged in all phases and areas of marriage so that we can break the generational habit of getting divorced. Divorce does not have to be a family trend and we should be teaching engaged and young married couples skills to prevent their marriages from heading in that direction early on so when they do face big challenges, they are able to overcome them without getting divorced.

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Are you interested in sharing your story with Restored?  If so, click the button above. Sharing your story can help you begin healing. 

Be assured: Your privacy is very important to us. Your name and story will never be shared unless you give explicit permission.

#040: 9 Ways to Pay for Counseling

You want to go to counseling, but a massive barrier stands in the way: The price. 

Therapy is not cheap. So, how are you going to pay for it? We tackle that question and more in this episode:

• 9 practical tips on how to pay for counseling

• How much does counseling actually cost?

• The info and next steps you need to pay for counseling, so you can heal and feel whole again

Find a counselor

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• #012: Counseling: How It Works and Why It Helps | Dr. Julia Sadusky, PsyD

• How much does mental health care cost? Part 2: Finding Affordable Psychotherapy

• How Much Does Therapy Cost and How Do You Pay For It?

• Seven Ways to Find Mental Health Financial Assistance

• STUDY: Americans Just Can’t Afford Mental Health Treatment

• World Population Prospects 2019, Volume I: Comprehensive Tables

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As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

So you are someone, you know, are thinking about going to counseling, but one huge barrier that you're facing is the price therapy is not cheap. So how the heck are you going to pay for it and to make things where maybe you're in a tough situation right now, maybe you're out of work or maybe you're just struggling to get by.

Maybe you're a student that doesn't really have an income. How do you deal with this? The first thing to know is you're not alone. The price of therapy, the price of counseling is a huge barrier for so many people. One article said this that said for the one in five us adults with a mental illness, about half of them go without treatment deterred by out of pocket costs.

And other obstacles such as finding an in network. Provider. So using some really basic math it's estimate, there are 331 million Americans at this recording. Now I understand that it's not just including adults, it's taking into account kids, but let's just keep the math simple and let's say. 330 million Americans.

The article I just shared said that 20% of them let's say has a mental illness. So it's roughly 66 million Americans. Then it says that half of that population, which is 33 million Americans with a mental illness. Are not getting the help that they need because of the obstacle of paying for counseling.

So again, that's over 30 million Americans estimated that aren't going to counseling, even though they have a mental illness because they can't pay for it. They don't know how to pay for it. Maybe they can, but they just don't know how. To go about it. And again, those numbers just include people who technically have a mental illness that doesn't include the huge amount of people.

Huge number of people who don't have a mental illness, but still want or need the benefits that counseling, uh, Offers, perhaps because they want to heal from some past trauma in their life, such as the trauma of, you know, coming from a broken home, or maybe they went through some abuse in their life, or maybe they just wanna deal with some other pain or problems in their lives that isn't technically classified as mental illness.

So that number of 33 million goes up a ton. And then when we look globally, of course, that number is astronomically higher. So this is a. Problem, whatever your situation, whatever your reason for going to counseling. If the price of counseling is preventing you from going to counseling, we hear you. And this episode is especially for you.

It's gonna help you a lot where you're gonna get out of it. We're gonna talk a little bit about how much does counseling actually cost. We'll give you nine common sense tips on how to pay for counseling. And by the end, you're gonna have the information that you need. To make a decision on how to pay for counseling and the next steps that you need to take in order to get counseling.

So you can begin or continue the healing process. So lots of good stuff ahead. Keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' force or separation. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 40. Again. I mentioned we're gonna give. Tips on how to pay for counseling. Before I dive into that, I just wanna let you know that we are now accepting questions for the show.

Some of you have already submitted questions. Thank you so much for doing that. But if you wanna submit your question, uh, we'll answer those on the show by either me or by my guess. And some of the benefits you can really ask anything that you want, a anything related to growth or healing or coping in healthy ways instead of unhealthy ways, anything related to.

The trauma of the breakdown of your family, maybe you're in a situation where you feel stuck or you're unsure how to handle the pain or the problems from your parents' breakup, or maybe you're unsure how to go about healing. We can help you there. Maybe, you know, someone who's going through all this, you love them, you lead them and you wanna give them some help, but you're not sure how to go about it.

We can help you there too. So, whatever your question we're gonna. Specific and practical answers right here on the show. If you wanna submit your question, it's really simple. Just go to restored ministry.com/ask Joey again, that's restored ministry ministers to singular.com/ask Joey, you're just gonna fill out the form with your question, and then when you submit it as we're able.

Will answer your question on the show. It's that simple. So go to restored ministry.com/ask Joey.

All right. The first thing you need to know before we get into the nine tips, when it comes to paying for counseling is that therapy is not forever. Typically this is a temporary thing that you go through for some season. In your life. So don't approach it, thinking that, okay, once I commit to it, I'm gonna be going to therapy for the rest of my life.

You might need to go back at some point and there's nothing wrong with that. That's fine. But it is really a temporary thing. And Dr. Julia Sadusky who we had on in episode 12, she said that typically takes four. Six sessions to start seeing an impact to start feeling better. If you're going there for maybe some, you know, messy emotions that you're dealing with.

So just four to six sessions, that's typically, you know, if you go once a week, that's a month to two months. So it's really this temporary investment in yourself in your mental health and feeling healthy and feeling. Whole again. And so that's how we really need to look at it. When you look at it as an investment, that's going to pay off, we're gonna get a return on our investment in the long run.

And if you just think in terms of your career, just to take one simple example, if you feel broken. If you're depressed, if you're anxious, if you're having a hard time focusing, because a lot of the pain and the problems in your life, it will obviously affect your work. You won't be as effective at your job.

You're gonna struggle. Maybe even to get a job in the first place, you're gonna struggle to, to move up, to learn new skills, to make more money. The list goes on, you get the idea, but let's say you were to invest some money sometime some effort, because it's not an easy thing to go through healing. If you were to do.

You could be in a much better spot in just three months and six months in a year to the point where you are able to focus better, you don't feel depressed, you don't feel anxious, or maybe you have the tools to better handle. When you do feel anxious. When you do feel depressed, you're gonna be much more effective at your job.

And then hopefully you can move up. You can make some more money, you can be more productive and your life overall, you're gonna be in a much better spot as well. So. Take the approach when it comes to therapy that you're investing in your future self, you're putting money into yourself, so to speak so that similar to an education in the future, you're gonna be able to do better.

You're gonna live a better life. You're gonna make more money. You're gonna do better at your job. You're gonna have more successful relationships. And on and on and on. And that's another example we could look to your relationships, right? Your friendships, your family situation, even your physical health across the board.

Like you could end up living longer. If you end up dealing with this pain, these problems that you're dealing with in your life by getting some help from a professional. And so, again, look at counseling as an investment. You're not just burning money, you're not throwing it down the drain for no reason.

You're gonna get something in return. If you find a good counselor and you put in the work and on the opposite end of that too, I, I kind of hate to mention this, but we need to face this truth that these issues that we're dealing with today, Could get more serious. In fact, they likely will get more serious if we don't get help and they might be even more expensive to treat in the future in the long run, you know, you could take a physical example, right?

Let's say I were to hurt my leg in some way. And instead of going to the doctor, instead of getting a surgery or healing it through therapy of some kind, let's say, I just say, ah, I'll be fine. I'll be fine. And it goes on for years and years and years. And let's say I'm I'm okay. Like I'm getting by. But then in the future it gets worse and it gets worse and it gets worse to the point where now I'm having major leg issues and I need a serious surgery to fix those issues.

That's gonna cost way more money. The recovery's gonna take way more time. You get the idea. We could look at a marriage too. So let's say you're married or you wanna be married one day. And if let's say in that marriage, you're having a lot of issues. You're having a lot of problems, but you don't really want to spend the money to go to marriage counsel.

It could be. I hate to say this, cuz it's such a scary thing that I fear a lot too it's could be that you end up getting divorced because you just never deal with your problems in your marriage. And a divorce is certainly much more expensive than what you'd spend on marriage counseling. I I've known couples to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on attorney fees.

It is insane. It's such a lucrative. Business for attorneys, for other people who are monetizing on families getting divorced. It it's insane. So. It's better. It's less expensive to treat the problems early on. It's easier to treat them early on than it is to let them get more serious in the long run. So again, it's not just an investment, but it's actually in a way insurance.

It's a way to help you to save money in the long run as well. So, That aside, how do you pay for it? The, the first tip is really obvious. Get your insurance to pay for it. And this is of course, assuming that you actually have insurance, maybe you're on your parents' insurance. How do you go about though figuring if your insurance will pay for it?

Uh, the easiest thing that you can do is just find your insurance companies phone number on Google. If you don't have it, just Google. The name of your insurance company and give them a call. This call's probably gonna take 10 to 15 minutes. You're probably gonna sit on the phone a little bit. When you call them, might take a little bit to, to get to the right location.

But once you talk to someone, you're gonna want to ask them a few questions and I suggest grabbing some paper, grab a pen, or just open up the notes app on your phone to write some of these questions down. If you need to pause this and come back to it, go ahead and do that. So. There's just a few questions that you want to ask the person from the insurance company.

You can just ask them what mental health benefits do I have with my insurance policy. So what mental health benefits do I have? It's the first question. And then you could ask, okay. Let's say where to go to counseling. What would I pay out of pocket? They might not be able to give you an exact amount, but they could probably give you some sort of range based on your insurance policy so they can give you a good idea.

Okay. Maybe you're gonna pay $20 outta pocket or $50 outta pocket. If you were to go to counseling. Next question you can ask is how many sessions per year? Would they cover there might be a limit there. So make sure you ask them to clarify that for you. You could also ask, do you cover counselors who are out of network where the counselor that you would see is not one of the counselors that they would recommend?

It's not one of the counselors that's within. Their network, but they might be able to pay for it. So you wanna talk to them about that and that's gonna really depend on your insurance plan as well. Another question, do you offer reimbursements? Like maybe they can't cover the costs initially where the counseling practice would submit the bill to the insurance company, but if you were to pay for it out of pocket, they could give you a reimbursement later.

On, and you would need to, you know, keep track of all the bills and everything like that, but it doesn't take too much work. You would submit them to the insurance company. They would be able to, you know, give you some money back, right. You would check or put some money into your account. So that's a good question to ask too, but there might be some limit on how much you can be reimbursed per year.

So that's another thing that you wanna ask as well. So ask about that. And then lastly, I would probably ask, is there a diagnosis that is required? What that basically means a diagnosis is just some document, right? From the counselor saying that you have a condition that needs to be treated, that's it?

And that might sound kind of scary, right? Like, are you gonna be labeled as a freak? Are people gonna find this out? Really? It's just a procedure that the insurance company needs the counselor to go through in order to cover the cost in order for them. To cover the cost. And if you are concerned, maybe about the possibility of it affecting you in the future, you can ask your counselor about that.

You can ask the practice about that and say, who would have access to this information potentially in the future. Tell them about your concerns and, and just ask them, you know, who would see this information in the future. If I do get some sort of diagnosis saying. You know, I deal with a needing disorder or I deal with depression, whatever, whatever situation you're dealing with.

Now, keep in mind, at least in the us. And a lot of other countries have very similar laws. HIPAA it's basically the privacy laws around medical records. They can't just. Give them to anyone like you're, you're very protected in this way. And they, we take it in the states like very, very seriously, like people have been fined.

I don't know if people have gone to jail or not, but people have been fined lots and lots of money for leaking sensitive, um, medical records for people that wasn't an authorized sharing of, of that medical record. And so basical. You're really protective. There's really only one situation that, that I'm aware of where maybe a judge could mandate that the counselor would have to release certain documents to them or come and testify in court.

And so if that's a serious concern for you, you could talk to the counselor and say, you know, when exactly would this happen, what would it look like? But for most people it's really not a big issue. It's really something not to be concerned with. But if you are. Talk to the counselor about it. And if you know, a lawyer or something like that, and you're comfortable talking with them, you could ask them as well.

But like I said, for most people, this isn't a real issue. And again, if you are really concerned, talk to someone who has more expertise, I don't pretend to be a lawyer. I'm not a lawyer. And so, uh, talk to someone who knows a law who can guide you in that situation. But from my point of view, just so you know, let's say someone were to find out about this.

Some. People everywhere struggle with a lot of problems, like a lot of pain, a lot of problems in their lives. And so my take is if you are getting help for some issue in your life that does not make you weak. That actually makes you strong. Like, I look up to you for going and getting help. It shows me your strength.

It shows me that you're not defined by your problems, but you're working through them. And so if you have questions about that, make sure to, to ask your counselor, they can clarify a lot of that. So again, just to go through those questions, if you're writing them down, ask them what mental health benefits do I have.

If I went to counseling, what would I pay out of pocket? How many sessions per year, would you cover, do you cover counselors that are out of network? Do you offer reimbursements? If they don't, you know, pay for it upfront, if they don't cover it and then is a diagnosis required? Those are just some good questions you can ask and make sure that you're asking them to a point where you can understand what they're telling you, because insurance is super confusing.

So make sure that if the person you're talking to is giving you these really weird answers that you don't understand, don't say, oh, okay. Got it. Don't pretend. Just say, I'm sorry. I don't understand what you're saying. Is there another way that you can explain that? Or, you know, maybe the person. Doesn't really know what they're talking about has to be transferred to someone else and, and they can do that for you.

That's not something that you should feel embarrassed asking about, make sure that they're giving you the help that you need. And they're being clear with your answers until you understand it. Keep asking until you understand it. Talk to someone else. If you have to now one challenge that's come up.

We've talked to people about this. Let's say you're on your parents' insurance and you wanna go to counseling. You know, you need help, but you don't want your parents to know. That you're going to counseling because maybe you just don't wanna have that conversation with them, perhaps a lot of the pain and the problems that you're dealing with stems from what's happened in your family.

You might really not want to have that conversation with them yet talking about, Hey, this is what I'm going through. I need help. That's real struggle. We totally get it. So a few options there. When you're on the phone with the insurance company, you can ask them, you know, what sort of privacy rights do I have since I am on my parents' insurance?

Like, are they gonna get a letter in the mail saying. Oh, you know, your son, your daughter is going to counseling. They're being treated for this. You can ask them what exactly, what information would my parents see? They can give you some answers in that again, ask until you understand, um, another option, which this is harder.

Is, you can have a honest conversation with one or both of your parents. You could say, Hey mom, Hey dad, I'm just going through a hard time right now. I'm struggling with some stuff. I don't really wanna talk about it, but I do wanna get some help. And so I'm looking around for a counselor. I'm going to try to figure out, you know, what the insurance will pay for.

Just wanna let you know, cuz I know you'll be made aware of it. Let's say the insurance company would tell you that they will notify your parents in some way, or maybe your parents will see it on their bill. You can keep it generic. You can keep it simple, but you can just let your parents know. So there's not this big dramatic issue that comes up.

If you can't face your parents, talk to 'em face to face on the phone, then. Maybe just send them a letter, just let them know. And, and that's all you would really need to do, because if you're on their insurance, you have the right to go through with that. And, uh, and there's nothing to be ashamed of. Now, if that's totally not an option, let's say the insurance company says, well, your parents are going to know that you're going to counseling.

You really don't want them to know. Then you're might need to use one of the other options that we're gonna. In this episode, tip number two is ask your employer about employee assistance program. So if you have a job it's possible that your employer might pay for counseling. Even if your insurance doesn't cover it, or maybe you don't even have insurance.

So what I suggest here. Is go and talk to your HR department. You can send them an email. You can give them a call and you can just ask them, Hey, do we cover counseling? I'm just curious. I was thinking about going to counseling. You really can keep it generic. You don't need to give them a lot of info there.

You can just ask the question and see what they say. And again, HR people, they have a lot of confidentiality. Safeguards in place. So they're not just gonna walk around your office or tell your boss or other leaders in the organization that you're asking about counseling, that they have to keep that stuff quiet.

And so, uh, rest assured there that if you were to ask them, it's not unusual and they're supposed to keep that quiet tip number three, use college campus counseling. Or maybe some community counseling center. So when I was in college, I did this, I used my college counseling center, uh, just a bunch of trained counselors that were available to us students just to be clear, this is not to be confused with academic counselors or advisors.

These were, uh, trained therapists who were able to, you know, help us with the issues that we were dealing with and the cost for me, I remember it was just $10 a session and I didn't have much money at the time at all. And so I went every other week. And it was really helpful. I did that for a year and a half, so I definitely put some money into it, of the little money that I had at the time, but it, it was certainly worth it.

And the challenge there, of course, if you were to go to your campus counseling center, is, are they any good? You know, are they gonna give you good advice? Are they gonna give you moral advice? Let's say you have a faith background. You wanna make sure, you know, are they gonna say things that maybe doesn't align with what I believe.

That can be super challenging. I'm gonna talk about that a little bit more at the end of this episode, but it's just good to be aware that maybe you're gonna have to try it out and see how it goes. And sometimes in those counseling centers on campuses, just know that you might have a newly certified counselor.

Or maybe it's a student who's working to get their certification, they're working to get their hours. So again, it might be worth a try. You might have to just test this out, run it as like an experiment to just see how it goes. And when you're interviewing the counselor at the beginning, cuz it really is an interview, uh, from you to them.

You're seeing if they're the right person to help you, you can ask them a ton of questions and just see. If that's gonna be an issue. If you come from a faith background, maybe they don't, is that gonna be a problem at all? And you can just be totally upfront with them and they should be able to give you some straight answers.

By the way, if you're not a student at a college, you still might be able to go on campus to get counseling. So look into that. If you're near a university, you can, uh, give the counseling center a call and just see if they offer. Anything for the community at large. And if they don't, or you're not near a university, a community counseling center in your area might be a more affordable option.

And so just get on Google and search community counseling center. Now this is not something that I'd recommend as like the top option, but if you're in a desperate spot, if you're in a tough spot with money, And you need some help. Now let's say you're dealing with some serious condition or even your symptoms are just really hard to deal with right now.

Do it, just get the help that you need right now. And maybe the long run that counselor, that practice that you're going to isn't the best fit, but it's better if you really need it to get the help now than to just wait longer and longer and longer to try to find the perfect counselor that you might never.

And, you know, in that practice or another practice, perhaps it's possible that group therapy could be a good option for you. Now, group therapy might sound kind of scary, but it could be a much more affordable option for you. In some cases you could end up paying half as much as you would. If you were to work one to one with a counselor, tip number four.

Find pro bono counseling. So pro bono is just a fancy word, meaning that a counselor would do it for free. So counselors in certain situations will offer free counseling to people who really need it, meaning they would look at your financial situation. You'd probably have to give them certain information about your financial situation.

And they would say, okay, I'm willing to do this much free counseling with you. So that could be an option. Maybe there's a practice, you know of that. You wanna try, you could ask them that, or you can give. Campus, or you can ask that community counseling center and see if they would do pro bono counseling.

Uh, you also, maybe there's a counselor you're interested in. Maybe they could refer you to someone who they know who does some pro bono work as well. Tip number five, pay out of pocket. So let's say your insurance doesn't cover it, or you don't have insurance. You could always pay out of pocket if you're making enough money to do that.

But a huge barrier here that we've seen is that you might not feel like it's worth. Like, is this gonna actually work? Is this a good use of my money? We totally get that. And the truth is you're gonna get out of counseling. What you put into it. If you put in the effort, if you find a good counselor, you're gonna get something out of it, but it's really important that you put in the work.

And it's also important that you actually put some skin in the game that it costs you something, because the truth is that you're gonna work harder and you're gonna value your therapy much more. If it actually costs you something. If it's not just a handout, something you get for free, you're gonna be more motivated and you're probably gonna end up completing counseling.

Quicker than if maybe mom or dad were paying for it or someone else is paying for it. And again, there's nothing wrong with going to counseling for free. If you, you have that need in your life right now, nothing wrong with that, but it really does change things. When you take money, you're hard earned money out of your pocket and you're paying it down again.

This is an investment we're not just throwing money down the drain. Um, but it's really helpful when we're putting money. Into it, knowing that we're gonna get something out of it, we're gonna just value it that much more. And I remember Dave Ramsey telling a story how I believe they would pay for their team members to go to counseling with their spouse if they needed it.

But, uh, if I'm remembering the story, right, they didn't really see results right away, but then eventually they started not paying for it a hundred percent. Maybe they're putting 50% into it. And at that point they started seeing much more results than before, because. Their team members started to realize, man, if I don't get some of this together, if I don't start working on my issues, start solving some of these problems with my spouse.

I'm gonna be putting out a lot of money. And so, uh, it motivated them to change it, motivated them to really work on their growth. And that is what can happen with you too, if you're paying out of pocket. So there's a lot of value in paying out of pocket. And there's a few things you can do again, if you can't.

Overall, and we're gonna get into some of those right now. Tip number six, ask the counselor if they have a sliding scale fee. So a sliding scale fee is basically where they would reduce their regular fee by some percentage to help you out. How much is counseling though? Regularly? It could range anywhere from $75 to $150, or maybe if you're seeing a specialist.

Or you're in an expensive city like New York or San Francisco that can go up to 200 or $300. And that's for typically a 45 minute session. Now you might be thinking why in the world? Is it so expensive? A few reasons. One therapists obviously go through a lot of training. Like if you get your PhD going through all that schooling takes a ton of time, a ton of effort and it isn't cheap.

So they obviously go through a lot of training. They deserve to be paid for all that, but also they need to make a living. Like they just like any other job, they need to make money. And if they're running their own practice, there's a ton of other expenses that they need to manage in addition to just doing their counseling.

So they'll need insurance, they'll need to pay any people that work for them, just like any other business. And so there's different reasons why. It can be so expensive, but like I mentioned, for people who need it, they will be able to work with you in most cases. Not always, but in a lot of cases, they'll be able to work for you on that sliding scale free.

Now they can't usually give it away for free, but maybe they could reduce it from $150 to a hundred dollars or to $75. So you may be able to get some sort of a deal like that. And basically what you can do here to figure out how much you can pay. Just do a quick calculation, try to look at your budget.

If you have one or just estimate how much you can pay per month for counseling. So let's say that's $200 per month that you can afford to do counseling. And then from there, what you wanna do is divide that by how many sessions you would have in a month. So if you go once a week, that would be of course, $50 per session.

Or if you were to go every other week, let's say that's, you know, a hundred dollars. A session. And then when you talk to the practice, when you go in to see the counselor, maybe you do a free phone consultation. You can ask them about their sliding scale fee and you can negotiate with them a little bit.

Now negotiation can be scary, but understand here that you're looking for a win. Win situation where you need the help and you're willing to pay some money to get the help they're trained. They can give you the help that you need and they need to make money. And so it really is a win-win situation. So don't be afraid to ask and if they come back and they say, no, we can't do it.

That's totally fine. Maybe you go elsewhere. Maybe you figure out a way to pay. By the way when you're asking a question like that for a sliding scale fear, typically when you're just going to counseling for the first time you fill out all these forms, they call them intake forms. Typically, they're gonna ask you some questions about your financial situation and just understand that you are not obliged to tell them everything about your financial situation.

You can decline telling them certain things. You can tell them. Now I'm not comfortable sharing that information. Or, you know, if you, if they're asking on a form how much you make, you can just say. Not applicable or just put in zeros in the field instead of giving them that information, it's totally your call.

If you're willing to share that, that's fine. They may require more of that information if you're asking for a discount than if not, but, uh, you really don't have to give it to them. As far as I know in my experience of doing counseling for years, you don't have to give that information to them. Tip number seven, adjusts appointment frequency.

So the less that you go, the less expensive it obviously. Well be now, typically counselors wanna see you every week or maybe every other week. So if you are going every week, if you were to adjust it to every other week, then it obviously becomes less expensive per month. If you go to every three weeks, that could be good too.

Maybe once a month, usually less frequency isn't advised. But it is a possibility. It, it, depending on your situation, you can talk to your counselor and see if it would be a good idea. If you need more help, more support, obviously you don't wanna be waiting that long, but maybe you can get by doing every other week and maybe having some friends or an online support group or something that you're checking in with more frequently to kind of fill that void while you're waiting to go back to your counseling session.

Another option here too. Aside from going less frequency is actually doing an intensive. So an intensive is where you do counseling for a week or, or two weeks. And in the end it could not always, it could end up being actually cheaper to do that. You would need to save up for it. It would be a big amount of money to pay all at once.

Or maybe you can figure out some other way. Pay for it. But in episode 37, we had Margaret que on and we talked about, uh, her therapy a little bit and she does it intensive. So basically you would go to her, uh, office to her town. You'd stay there for, I think it's a week. I think sometimes she does two weeks.

And she, you know, would treat you, you would work with her for the whole week and, uh, you would pay, you know, a larger amount in that case. Now let's say, I don't know what she charges offhand, but let's say it was like $2,000. Now that's a lot of money to pay all at once. But let's say you were to do maybe 40 hours of counseling over that week or two weeks.

That would be about $50 an. Now again, I don't know what it actually would be in reality, but if that were the case, then it could be substantially cheaper to do that than to go, you know, to a counseling practice where they're charging you a hundred dollars an hour going every other week. So you can just talk to your counselor.

You can take a look at some of the options if they have intensivess. If you wanna do that, if you wanna go a little bit less frequently, you can just talk to your counselor and see, and just make sure that they know that you would wanna do that in order to save money and just see what they say. Tip number eight, get on a payment plan.

I'm not a huge fan of debt. I don't think it's wise to go into debt in most situations, but getting on a payment plan might be smart if you're in a tough financial situation. And typically if you do this with a counselor, there wouldn't be any interest involved. And so the, the risk is really not there that there would be with another type of loan.

Basically, what you'd do in this case is you would pay your counseling bill off slowly. Maybe you'd pay $50 or a hundred dollars a month. One counselor I worked with in the past did this for me. So I would go to counseling. I think typically it was like twice a month. And so he would add up the time to my bill.

And then let's say, I think I did it for about six months. In that case, I would pay a certain amount. Per month, let's say it was a hundred dollars until the entire bill was taken care of. And so that can be a good thing you can do where you're getting the help that you need, but you're paying it a little bit more slowly.

And so you need to ask your counselor about it. Some counseling practices won't be willing to do that, but some will. And in certain situations they may have never tried that before. This might be something new for them. So you might need to sell it a little bit, but it could be a good thing. It could be an attractive thing, both for them.

And for. Tip number nine, asks someone to cover the costs for you. This is super humbling. Some of you are immediately opposed to this idea. You're so turned off by it because you're just so independent. And I get that I'm that way too. But if there's no other way that you can pay for counseling and you really need the help, don't be afraid to ask someone to help you out because you know, you can't afford it.

So you can just ask them and say, Hey, you know, I'm in this tough situation right now. I can't afford counseling, but I really need it. Is there any way that you can help me out and give them of course the freedom to say, no, they do not have to do this. Of course, if they do want to help you, one really important piece to this is make sure that it's clear whether you are paying back that loan.

Let's say it's a loan. Or if they're just giving it to you as a gift, it's gonna save so much time, so much frustration, so much trouble by making sure that you talk about that. And maybe even putting it into writing, even if it's just an email or text message that you save, it's gonna help so much to put that into writing, to get clear in that first so that, you know, you're not ending up in this weird situation where.

Thought someone was giving you a gift, but in the end it was actually just a loan. So make sure to get clear on that and don't expect someone to pay a hundred percent for your counseling. Like I mentioned before, it's usually better if you're paying for some of it, because again, it needs to cost you a little bit in order for you to really benefit from and to be motivated.

To go through with and take it seriously and make sure to take that money seriously, if they're gifting it to you, because that's nothing that should be taken lightly. They're likely sacrificing a lot in order to give that to you. And so we need to make sure that we're honoring them by putting in the hard work and really working to heal.

So that's it. Those are the nine tips I'm gonna run through them quickly. Again, the first one is get insurance to pay. Second, ask your employer about employee assistance programs. Third use college campus counseling, or maybe an affordable community counseling center. Fourth find pro bono counseling, someone who will do it for free because your situation five pay out of pocket six, ask the counselor.

If they have a sliding scale fee, seven adjust appointment frequency eight, get on a payment plan and nine ask someone to cover the cost for. Something that I would love to do in the future that we can't do right now. But we'd love to do in the future is offer grants to pay partially for counseling, for people who qualify for it, who need our help.

Again, we're not there yet. We don't have the funding to do that at this point, but join our email list@restoredministry.com to stay tuned for things like that. Again, it's something that I'd like to do at some point in the future. Um, if we can, I, if we get the funding to do something like. So we'd love to hear from you guys too.

What, what creative ways have you used to pay for counseling? And, and did we miss anything? Let us know, email us@contactrestoredministry.com or you could just fill out the form on the website again, contact restored ministry.com. We'd love to hear from you. In closing a, another huge barrier that a lot of people face when it comes to actually going through with counseling is finding a good counselor.

And I totally understand that. And when we think of counselors and talk about counselors at restored, we are typically looking for three main things. We're first looking for someone who's competent, who's good at their craft. They know. What they're doing, they have the expertise, they have the experience, they have the training, all of that.

They need to be competent next. They have to have a good understanding of the human person because they're trying to treat very deep and often complicated issues. And so they really need a good understanding of the human person. And lastly, there need to be someone who appreciates and understands how damaging the breakdown as your family can be.

There's a lot of counselors out there who really don't understand this. They don't appreciate it. They don't know the research on how damaging it can be and they might end up saying harmful things to you because, well, you know, you're struggling with the breakdown of your parents' marriage and they're just maybe making light of it saying, well, now you.

Two homes and twice as many gifts and all that sort of stuff, that's just not helpful at all. So you wanna find someone again, who's competent, someone who understands a human person and someone who can understand and appreciate what would be so harmful about the breakdown of your parents' marriage. Now, for those of you who come from a faith background, you might also want someone who is a Christian, let's say.

So that goes into that second point. Having a good understanding of the human person. One thing I wanna say on that note, though, a very competent counselor who maybe doesn't share your same faith background should still be able to help you. There shouldn't be a conflict there in, in a lot of cases, not in every case, but in a lot of cases, if they're not able to do that, to be objective and help you, even if they don't come from your faith background, then that says that they're not extremely competent in what they do just to be.

But at the same time, I totally understand if you wanna go to someone who does come from a faith background. And so go ahead and look for that. You can find people you can ask around we're building our network, which I'll I'll tell you about in a second, but a few pointers when it comes to looking for a counselor, understand if you're looking for a Christian counselor, that that doesn't guarantee that they're good at what they.

It's like, you know, finding a Christian plumber, a Christian doctor, it's like, great they're Christian. Awesome. That doesn't make them good at what they do. They need to be good at what they do. So just make sure you're separating those things. Don't assume that just because they're Christian, because they're Catholic, that they're good at what they do.

Make sure that you're, uh, finding someone who who's also very competent. Take a shopping around approach. You know, you can interview a few different counselors, do the phone consultations, maybe have two or three options. And then from there you make a, a good decision. So don't be afraid to take those consultations, to just take this approach that I'm testing it up.

We'll see how it goes. You don't need to commit fully to someone before you really even know if you click with them. Well. And so test it out, see if there's one of them who you can really relate to. You thought really got you, understood you and you can help. And again, don't be afraid to ask a ton of questions when you're meeting with the counselors to really get an understanding of where they're coming from again, on the aspect of, are they competent?

Do they understand the human person? Well, are they gonna give you, you know, good advice. And then lastly, do they understand how damaging it can be to come from a broken home? If you want more info about that checkout episode 12, with Dr. Julia Sadusky. In that episode, we talk about how many sessions it takes to, to start feeling better.

We talk about the, the number one factor that determines whether counseling is gonna work for you or not how to find the right counselor for you. Uh, so you give some questions that you should be asking. To a counselor before you commit to doing therapy with them and then how to make the most out of counseling, like what you need to do in order to make the most out of it.

Again, that's episode 12.

So at ReSTOR, you probably know we are building a network of counselors that we trust that we vet that we recommend to you. And so if you wanna find a counselor, some of the benefits of using our network is that it's gonna save you a lot of time and effort in searching. For a counselor, we're gonna connect you with a, a trained profession who can give you the help that you need, give you the tools that you need to heal so you can feel a hole again and again, these are people that we vetted that we trust that we recommend the counseling network at this time at this recording is not fully ready, but it will be.

And so if you wanna get on the wait list, you can just go to restored ministry.com. Coaching again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/coaching. You just fill out a simple form and then we're gonna connect you with a counselor. And so thanks for your patience. As we build that out, it's a huge project that we're working on, but it's really important.

Again, that's restored ministry.com. Slash coaching. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 40. Again, restored ministry.com/four. Thank you so much for listening. Hope this has been useful for you or maybe someone, you know, if it has been, I invite you to subscribe and to share this podcast with someone, you know, who could use it.

Always, remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#039: The Anatomy of a Wound & How to Heal | Dr. Bob Schuchts, PhD

As a psychologist, author, and speaker, Dr. Bob Schuchts has dedicated his life to helping people heal their brokenness. 

In this episode, he offers his expertise on healing, but he doesn’t stop there. He also shares how his parents’ broken marriage deeply affected him. It took years, but he did find healing - for himself and even his family. We delve into that and more:

• The anatomy of a wound

• How the healing process works

• 1 tip you can do today to heal

Register: Dr. Bob’s Healing Retreat

Buy the Book: Be Healed [affiliate link]

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Books by Dr. Bob Schuchts

  • Be Healed: A Guide to Encountering the Powerful Love of Jesus in Your Life

  • Be Devoted: Restoring Friendship, Passion, and Communion in Your Marriage

  • Be Transformed: The Healing Power of the Sacraments

  • Be Restored: Healing Our Sexual Wounds through Jesus' Merciful Love

  • Forty Weeks:: A Journey of Healing and Transformation for Priests 

  • Real Suffering: Finding Hope and Healing in the Trials of Life

• Book by Jay Stringer

  • Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing

• Follow Dr. Bob

  • John Paul II Healing Center

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Today, I'm joined by Dr. Bob Schutz on the show. Dr. Bob is a psychologist. He's an author speaker, and he's been a therapist for over 30 years and he is helped so many people to heal and feel whole again, he's very experienced and he's truly an expert when it comes to brokenness and healing, but he's actually also a child of divorce.

And so in this show, we talk about his story. We talk about how his dad's alcoholism was a big part of the reason that his parents' marriage broke apart. There was infidelity involved and he gets into some of that. And he says that when his dad left. To him, it felt like an emotional abortion. And he explains exactly what he means by that.

He also explains how the breakdown of his parents' marriage affected him over the years, and also how he's found healing, not only for himself, but how he helped his entire family to heal as well. But he also gets into how his own struggles within his marriage really were rooted in the breakdown of his family.

And he almost went down the same path as his parents. Then we get into the anatomy of a wound. We talk about how a wound works. Like, what are the pieces of a wound? He explains the three layers of a wound. We also get into the healing process. He explains how healing works, what are the steps and the healing process.

And we touch on some of the barriers that prevent healing as well. And then finally he gives encouragement and advice to, to anyone listening right now who just feels broken, who feels stuck, especially because of the trauma that you've experienced in your families. He just gives one tip that you can do today to begin or continue healing.

This conversation's so good, so valuable. And so keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 39 and like I mentioned, I'm joined today by Dr. Bob. Shoot Dr. Bob is the founder of the John poll II healing center.

He's a nationally renowned speaker. He is also spoken overseas. Dr. Bob is the author of the book be healed. He's also the author of the book be transformed. As I mentioned, Dr. Bob has spent more than 30 years as a therapist, but he's also taught graduate and undergraduate courses in marriage and family relationships, human development, applied psychology and marriage and family therapy.

He held adjunct professor positions at Florida state university, Tallahassee community college, and the center for biblical studies in Tallahassee, Florida. He's also taught courses at the theology of the body Institute and the August. Institute as you find it in a second, Dr. Bob's so competent when it comes to helping people heal so they can feel whole again, a quick disclaimer, for any of you listening, who aren't religious, uh, just wanna let you know that we do talk about God and faith in this episode.

And if that's you, I'm so glad that you're here. We obviously exist to serve everyone regardless of their background or their faith. But when we bring guests on the show, if faith and their relationship with God has been a big part of their healing, their story, we let 'em talk about it. And so we're not a solely religious show, but we're also not a solely secular show.

We kind of mix between the two. And so my challenge to you is to keep an open mind, go into this episode with an open mind. And even if you were to take all the parts out where we talk about God, you're still gonna gain so much from this episode. So that's my challenge. You keep an open mind, everyone. I'm so thrilled to share this conversation with you.

Here it is

Dr. Bob, thank you so much for joining us. Hey, Joey, it's great to be with you. I love what you're doing. Thank you. You, you as well. And there's so much that we can talk about, you have so much expertise in helping people heal and feel whole again. And I wanna get into all of that, but to start out, I'm actually interested in your story.

Like so many people listening, you also come from a broken home. And so if you're comfortable with it, what happened there? Tell us the story. Yeah, it's interesting. We're having this interview on my dad's birthday. He would've been 86, so a lot of my story involves him and I have a great love for him, but it was a difficult season in our life.

I was, um, I'm second oldest of seven children and then three more by his remarriages, but I was actually very close to my dad and, and remained that way through his whole life. And you know, my whole life mm-hmm . But during the early years of my teenage years, from about 11 to 14, things got tumultuous at home.

I didn't realize at the time that he was beginning to drink heavily and stay away from home and also having affairs at the time, but just finally all blew up when he left, when I was 14 and I didn't see him for two years just crushing, you know, the, wow. I wanted to be like him. I, you know, I loved him. He, he was a good disciplinarian and a good friend.

He used to come in, bless us every night before we go to bed, all the children with me and my mom and taught me about the faith. I would sit next to him at mass and we'd get quizzed on the way home. So mine, isn't the typical story of a lot of resentment towards the parent because they weren't a good parent.

I, you know, I had a deep love and, but I think in some ways it made the divorce harder. I've heard other people say that, you know, as a relief at some level when their dad left or their mom left, because it was so terrible at home. For me, it wasn't that case. Sure. And so if, if for me the best way that I can describe it, It was like an emotional abortion.

Hmm. It was like, it was like a ripping apart of a bond. And, uh, like my dad had died. In fact, you know, I, I laid there at night as a 13, 14 year old. Wondering if I'd ever see him again, wondering if he was alive, wondering if he'd go to heaven or hell or hell if he died. And, you know, so it was, it was just really in that sense, even in the present was really painful, difficult, but the reality is I didn't deal with the pain for many years at, at the time there was a lot of anxiety.

What I now can see as depression is somewhat humorous to me, but it wasn't humorous back then is my uncle. My mother's brother was also going through a hard time. We moved in with them for a little while and he and I painted his entire room black in terms, even his windows. Hmm. I sit there and say, what would motivate me to want paint?

Somebody's. Window black and up with is depression, you know? Right. Uh, it's kind of like in that stage when all the pain is there, uh, you just, your heart shuts down. And I look back and I say, I wasn't aware of being depressed at the time, but I had the symptoms. I was, I, uh, withdrawing from people. I was in sports.

I, I, you know, I wasn't a great basketball player, but I scoring like 20 points, a game down to zero. After that in school, I was a good student, went down to struggling in school for that next year. I began to pull away from relationships. And then for me and all of my brothers and sisters, as we talk about this, and we would have lots of talks later on with my dad.

We all had a lot of feeling of not being safe. You know, it's like my dad. Being present was a protector in the home. And when he wasn't there, there was like this fear and this lack of protection. In fact, when we moved down to south Florida, our house was down to south Florida is broken into a couple times, and we never felt that insecurity prior to my dad leaving.

Wow. I can relate to that in a lot of levels. I remember as a boy, uh, we had this white minivan and I remember, you know, even being really young, like sitting in my car seat and, you know, coming home from a family party or something. My, you know, dad was driving. Mom was in the passenger seat, my siblings and I were all there.

And I remember just feeling so safe and, and like the presence of my father safe in the presence of my family. And that all changed for me too. So I can relate to that. And some of the other things that you said, and it's so interesting how we can walk around in the world, so broken and struggling and never really become fully aware of it or, or never at least become aware of the root cause of it.

We blame something else. Yeah. And it's such a, a lie in our culture right now that divorce kids and divorce do fine. And it's, you know, if, if you were to look at our family and the measures of success of school and sports and work, and all this would say there's no effect, but every single one of us would be able to say, no, the effects were deep and profound, but it took us a lot of years.

to be aware of how much it affected us. Yeah. I couldn't agree more with that. And that's the common trend that we see from the stories that we hear, the research that we read, and it's really unmistakable. Once you start to talk to people like us who come from broken families or read the research yeah.

That this really profoundly impacts people for years, for years and years. And there is a possibility for healing. There's so much hope at which we'll get into, but it, we have to really start with the fact that this is devastating. This is a really difficult thing. Even in those situations where it may be necessary, it's still a really difficult thing to go through.

Yeah. Yeah. Even, even when the situation at home is horrible, there's still a great loss of two parents raising children and loving each other and providing security there. So, uh, I think sometimes the divorce starts way before the parents separate in, in the hearts of the. Absolutely. Yeah, we, we say that it's, it's not like this, uh, random event.

It's not like an Adam bomb that went off and like, oh, I don't know where that came from. Right. It's been building for years. And now it's the, the summit, the pinnacle of a really messy situation. You mentioned a little bit how it affected you. Was there anything else that you observed over the years following the breakdown in your family and how it affected you?

Well, I think the biggest effect was in trust. I remember, again, this didn't come up until I got married and had children, but I remember, uh, well, I, it was actually before, when I was dating my wife. I remember having this insecurity jealousy, particularly when she would relate to men. And she was just a very friendly, loving person, but I would, I would have this anxiety and I, I couldn't identify it as anxiety.

Then I, I identified it as she was doing something wrong in my mind, but it, but it wasn't until I experienced healing in that area. And we can talk about that a little later, but I didn't, I wasn't aware of how deeply the loss of my dad affected my trust levels and my ability to feel secure in relationships.

And it was only after some of those areas were healed and the, the pain was released that I could then trust at another level that I couldn't before. And, you know, to me, that's still ongoing in some ways, you know, the it's, it's like, uh, such a painful loss that it affects trust. You know, it's like I trusted it affected my trust in God and affected my trust in my dad, but it also affected my capacity to trust anybody.

Hmm. I've seen that same thing in my life and the lives of the people that we work with. I, uh, I always say that healing is really an infinite goal. Yep. You mentioned that, you know, you're still dealing with some. I can totally relate too. You know, I've made a lot of progress and I know you've made tons of progress in your personal life, and you're now helping, you know, hundreds and thousands of people heal.

But yeah, healing is certainly an infinite goal. It's like fitness. I think that's the best example. We never wake up one day and say, okay, I'm done. Like I've reached the pinnacle of fitness. I will never work out again. I'll never eat healthy again. I'm done. We of course need to continue on that path, even though we can, you know, make real progress and find closure in certain areas of our lives.

Yeah. Uh, it's, it's real and it's, it's, uh, makes a huge difference. And without it, we can just repeat the trauma in one way or another, you know, without really engaging and healing, we can either go through. In fact, it's part of my story. I was, I never wanted to divorce because I knew the damage, but I got to the place where it felt like I was being swept down this corridor because I hadn't dealt with a pain in my own heart.

It was ho it was terrifying to me. It was really, that was really the darkest time in my life was those year and a half where I was struggling with that. And it was. Only in the healing of that, that I could freely give my heart to my wife, uh, in a way that I couldn't before that. And, and then even though I could always do it with my children, it was, it was a greater security for them when that healing took place.

That's beautiful. Yeah. And it made a huge difference. And then the healing then started taking place with my brothers and sisters, my parents, the whole family together. It's just, it's a beautiful story of God's redemption. And what did you do in. Wow. So the cycle can work in the opposite, um, extreme as well.

AB absolutely. Absolutely. That's really encouraging because I think so many of us who come from broken homes, everyone listening right now, often we see the brokenness past generation to generation and, you know, the cycle of divorce is just repeating and that's really why we exist at store. We wanna reverse the cycle of divorce by helping young people heal and build virtue because the sad truth is that, you know, when you come from a broken family, uh, you're much more likely to get divorced yourself, statistically.

And so we, we believe that if we can help people to heal and build virtue, then they're gonna be these strong individuals who build good marriages and good marriages of course, are the foundation of, uh, strong families and strong families are gonna transform our world. And so it's really, this is so vital that we get this right.

It is so vital. It is really vital. It's the, it's the core of everything, uh, because. So much of what we're dealing with in society is the breakdown in the family. And you can look at almost every social indicator of distress in our society, and it's one way or another, it goes back to a loss of faith and a loss of, uh, secure love in the family.

Wow. Incredible. And I want to get into that before we do, uh, what are a couple things in your life that were really, really helpful on a personal level? I know again, you help people on a professional level now, but I'm curious, like personally you, what, what were one or two things that really helped you to heal?

Wow, it's gonna be difficult to identify one or two cause there's hundreds, but sure. I think right away, I, I really had a, a father void in my teenage years without my dad there. And so right away, good solid men coaches and you know, one summer coaches, one was a professional football player that I worked out with.

That was in the right next to the school I went to, who took me under his wing, brought me to Christian camp fellowship, Christian athlete, camp, summer camp. And you know, those, those had a tremendous impact. I don't know where I would've gone without having those kind of godly male influences. My mother obviously was still in faith and everything, but a mother can't give what a father can give.

And because these coaches and this professional athlete, as men got engaged in my life, it made a big difference in terms of forming me. And, you know, we see this statistic as when a mother continues to go to church. There's only, I don't know the exact numbers, but there's a lot lower percentage of the children that go to church if the father isn't.

But if the father is active in his faith and it's faithful, the faith of the children is like 80% or something like that. It's really incredible difference. Wow. And so having these, you know, having seen my father kind of fall off the cliff and his faith life. It was devastating, created a loss of trust in the whole, in God, the father in, in church and everything else.

But having these men who I could see were genuine in their faith and cared about me and were invested in me that made a big difference. So that's one that's. I would put that in one category. That's incredible. Yeah. And I don't mean to limit you there. What, uh, what were some other, I guess, really impactful, uh, methods or things that helped you heal?

I think the second was getting really coming to understand the church's teaching about marriage and family life. It, it, it all felt so intuitively true when I studied it. But I remember in high school, I had a course by a priest in Catholic high school in south Florida. And, uh, he was integrating faith in, in psychology and marriage and family.

And I had had no idea at the time, but I could see now looking back, that was the spark for my profession, but it was also. A foundation of truth that got shattered before that. And, and so just being able to see and know, and, and, you know, when you, when you see what's true, uh, whether it's in the church or out of the church, it just resonates in their heart.

And that's what happened. It was like, yes, this is the truth here. This is the truth of what I need, what everybody needs. And there's something very grounding when you can, when you can get past the confusion of what happened and just say, okay, but even though this happened, this is still the way of love.

You know, this is still what we all need and it's, and it's true and it's trustworthy. So that helped restore the trust. And then from there, I was able to build a trust in reading scripture, coming to trust the person of Jesus, you know, the person who had the integrity that would never, uh, let me down in that way.

But that was a tremendously important thing. And then from there to be able to trust the church again, uh, even though I was still participating in church, there wasn't a deep trust for the teachings of the church or those things. And then a, again, I could go on and on and on, uh, about different healing experiences, but those are pretty foundational ones.

Incredible. And I know in your books, you elaborate on that and I'll tell you guys, uh, listening at the end, how you can grab those books. If you wanna learn more for anyone listening, who isn't familiar with, you know, the church's teaching on, uh, marriage and family. Part of the reason that it's so helpful is because it offers a very clear roadmap, a blueprint on how to build love that lasts.

And that, that was so encouraging for me too. Dr. Bob. Because one of the things that the research shows, I know, you know, this well and anyone who's listened to the show for a long time knows that the biggest area of our lives that is impacted by the divorce, according to research is our own relationships, especially our romantic relationships and our marriages.

Yeah. And the reason as simple, you know, we don't have a roadmap for love. We've seen a broken model of love and marriage. And so when it's our turn, we don't know how to do it. We feel kinda lost. We feel discouraged, like it's not even possible. And so, uh, it's so refreshing to understand that, okay, God has a plan for this.

You know, if you do these things, if you understand, you know, this is the purpose of marriage, uh, it's so hopeful, clarifying, and it makes it way easier when you're actually enter into a relationship into a marriage, to, to live out that love and experience the joy that we're all meant to experience. Yeah.

It's, it makes a huge difference, even though we still need to heal into those areas. Just having the, the roadmap is, is critical. And for me, probably for you too, but jump all the second teaching on marriage and family, and particularly the theology of the body has influenced me profoundly. And my family, my children, my grandchildren, you know, it's, it's just been, had a huge effect in terms of giving that B.

It's been so helpful for me as well. I really became aware of it through Jason Everett. I heard him yeah. Speak when I was gosh, 14 years old. And I had already made a lot of mistakes when it came to, you know, pornography and Lu. And so his message, which really comes from, you know, love and responsibility yeah.

Was so refreshing. And so hopeful to me, he answered all the questions. I never even knew that I had about love and sexuality and marriage. And so, yeah. Uh, I couldn't agree more. We could talk about that all day. I'm sure. Yeah. yeah, probably any of these things we're talking about could be a conversation by itself.

Yeah. Amen. Couldn't agree. More. I wanna switch gears. I wanna talk about the anatomy of a wound. You write about this, uh, in your book, be healed. You write that, you know, there's various pieces and parts to wound, and I think it's really helpful if we wanna heal to understand that. And so if you would please teach us about that, break that down for us.

Yeah. And, and let me put it in the relation to the, to the divorce, because it'll become much more alive in this way, but. And, and be healed and, and other material, I talk about three circles as like three levels of the heart or three layers of the heart. And on the inside is just the pain from the wound.

So it's, it's trauma. And as we're finding more and more about trauma, trauma stays in your body until it's released and it stays in your mind and it affects the way your brain's organized and it affects the way every cell of your body. And so, you know, it, it affects our physical, emotional, spiritual health.

And typically trauma is too much for us to bear in the moment. That's why it takes us a while to work through trauma, but it's not that the trauma's in the past, it's, it's the trauma remains with us until it's released. And so it's. Through the experience of, of releasing the pain or the anger or the rage or the powerlessness or the fear or whatever manifestation that has.

But, but our bodies and our minds and our souls pulled on to trauma. One of the ways we do that is through our beliefs. And that's the next band. If you will, the next circle in its the beliefs are of two, two types. It's the things that we believe about ourselves, which affect our identity, the way we see ourselves, that's the beliefs we have about other people and about God and about life, which are we call judgements.

You know, they're the ways that filter our perception of reality, both about ourselves and about other people. And so in, you know, in the case of, you know, my, my experience of a trauma of abandonment of my dad and for you two, and there's a rejection in it, those are different wounds. There's a powerlessness there's fear.

So what we call the seven deadly wounds, all have beliefs associated with. . And so, you know, one of the beliefs and these aren't just beliefs as at an intellectual level, there's deep, deeply held beliefs of the heart, which is I'm alone. I'm not loved, I can't trust anybody. And there's a hopelessness that things aren't gonna get any better.

All those get, if you will lodged into the heart at a deep level, even if our mind knows a different truth or understanding knows a different truth, those, those things kind of hold, we hold onto them and they hold onto us. And we actually hold onto them as a way of protecting against the trauma. Believe it or not, even though they keep the trauma in place and keep us in the trauma.

They're, they're in some ways a barrier to that trauma and then the judgements we have to other people, you know, it's like the judgements that I made towards my dad or about marriage or about God, or about the church or about women, you know, or about drinking, you know, all those things that, that form perceptions.

that then play themselves out when you get involved in relationships, you know, a lot of those judgements have unforgiveness related to them. Uh, and so we work through a process of forgiveness, but also of really recognizing and releasing the judgements because they filter everything. They're like putting on glasses, that color, everything that you see.

And then the final outside circle is what we call inner vows or resolutions of the will of ways we're gonna protect ourselves. So one of mine was, I will never divorce like my parents, because I'll never want to hurt my children. Like I was hurt and we were hurt or I'll never want to hurt my wife. Like my dad hurt my mother.

And you say, well, that's a really good vow, right? Yeah. Yeah. But it isn't, it was good when I made it in marriage with the holy spirit. And that's really what I promise and I'm gonna love my wife for better or for worse and sickness and in health. And that vow actually kept us together. But this inner vow wasn't even conscious.

It was made out of fear and judgment. And in that it, it creates this self-protection that actually almost brought me into a place that was a very thing that I feared. And it's, it's hard to describe that, but it's, it's like I was so in fear of hurting my wife and hurting my children, that I didn't deal with the pain, or even with the conflicts that came up, you know, I was afraid of being afraid of rejecting or afraid of being alone or, and so those vows actually led me to insulate and protect and to control, uh, because that's what we do out of fear is we tend to control things rather than trust mm-hmm

And so it creates this whole vicious cycle of destruction. That you're not even aware of until you're face to face with it. And that, that really began my deeper healing process. It was 10 years into my marriage, 10 to 12 years into my marriage. Incredible. And I, I love what you said that it almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If we're not aware of these things, if we don't actively work to heal, we can go down the path of the thing that we fear the most. And I know for a lot of us, like you mentioned, our biggest fear is that we would repeat what we saw in our parents' marriage. We're terrified of that. We don't want that. Yeah.

Um, but often, like you said, we're pulled in that direction because we don't deal with the underlying causes that the brokenness there, that would cause us to repeat that cycle. Yeah, exactly. It, it, terror is a great word for it. And you know, you think of terror as a, you know, a nightmare or something. But for me, that was my worst nightmare is bringing my children through what we experienced and it wasn't even conscious.

That's the hard thing is cuz I didn't know how much pain I had experienced. But I knew intuitively that I didn't want anybody else to experience it. Hm. I think it's encouraging too, that it might not be encouraging for you, but for people listening, you know, it took 10 years into your marriage to figure this out.

And so anyone who's listening, who, you know, you've been going at this for a while, you've been struggling. You maybe feel kind of hopeless. Um, it takes time, but, but it's worth it. And you will see results in the end if you stay with it. And so we'll talk about that a little bit more. I love what you said also about, you know, these things being unconscious on, on many levels, you know, we can understand it, like you said, on an intellectual level, but at the level of our heart, we may still be, be stuck and unable to, to move forward in our life, to let things go, to find closure, to forgive, to do all the things that you mentioned.

Yeah. And, and sometimes we, we do kind of a GLI forgiveness of, you know, I forgive you without really dealing. The pain and the, and the beliefs and the judgements and all that. Oh, that's really good. What are some examples of, of those core wounds that kind of cause us to, you know, make those vows to experience that trauma, to have those beliefs that you mentioned, uh, what are some core wounds, especially for people who come from broken families.

Yeah. I mentioned several of them and, and I like to think back to the fall of mankind because all of these happened when we broke our relationship with God at the beginning, you know, at the story of Adam and Eve of, of the rupture that happened with sin, all the Williams happened, then, you know, shame and fear and rejection and powerlessness, hopelessness, and those still happen.

Anytime there's any breaking of relationship. And so whether it's divorce or whether it's a broken friendship, or we can experience those wounds. And sometimes all at once, sometimes some are more visible than others, but. You know, I, I really, when I talk about a divorce is kind of like an emotional abortion, uh, or a spiritual abortion.

There's, there's something to that because if you've ever seen what happens in an abortion, and there's just this ripping apart of an attachment that the mother and the child, you know, the child is short lived, but it's intense pain on their part. But on the mother's part, it's something that stays with her for the rest of her life until it's healed.

And, and the same thing happens in divorce. It's like everybody, I found out later as we went through this healing process, that it wasn't just me. It was all my brothers and sisters, my mom and my dad carried this pain with him. And even though my dad could drink and, and deny it for many years and go through a second divorce and go through the same thing when he began his healing process.

And by the way, our forgiveness and, and working with him, helped him in that. Wow, his pain was just the same as ours, but in fact, as I had an opportunity later, In life to pray with him, for healing and his childhood pain, even though he'd never gone through the divorce was very similar to my pain living in the conflict between his parents.

And so, and so we live with, you know, the words just don't describe the intensity of the trauma, but, uh, yeah, abandonment is this sense of being cut off from vital relationship and connection. Rejection is a sense of, I'm not wanted, I'm not chosen. I'm not lovable. Fear is I can't trust anybody cuz I'm just gonna get hurt.

So I have to protect myself powerlessness. I can't change this. I just feel trapped, stuck, helpless, unable to do something. Hopelessness is things are never gonna change. It's never gonna get any better. I'll never have what I want confusion is I can't figure this out. I don't know what to do. I, I don't know if I've covered all the sure.

All the, all the wounds there, but those, those are the seven deadly wounds that I talk about in. In most of my books. Incredible. I, I can say that, you know, when my dad left the house yeah. I immediately felt abandoned and I felt unwanted. So yeah. You know, like you said, the rejection and I, I noticed, you know, looking back in my life, so many of my struggles, especially with LUS, like pornography, it was just an attempt to feel wanted.

Yeah, exactly. And so, if any of you are out there dealing with pornography or dealing with those things, there's, there's real needs that are unmet in real wounds, underlying that. And when you deal with those deeper wounds and lies and vows and all those things, then, then you lose taste for the, for the thing that's artificial that never satisfies.

I, I would say every one of my brothers and sisters after my dad left, got into some kind of sexual sin. Wow. And there was no more example. And you know, it was just unconsciously following. Uh, the brokenness, like you said. Yeah. And in some cases I know it's an attempt to rewrite a very broken story. We think, well, maybe I can make a different, if I, yeah.

Go down this path part of the way and then change the ending, right? Yeah. Yeah. Which is again, go into powerlessness. We try to control and it just ends up leaving us more powerless. Yeah. So true. I wanna get to the healing process before I do one of the things you say in your book that is just so profound, is that at the root of almost every wound, we probably could say every wound, but let's say almost every wound is a deprivation of love.

And we've touched on this a bit already, but I think it's so profound. What exactly do you mean by that? Would you elaborate a little bit on that? Yeah. And I wanna speak it, bring it back to just what we were talking about is these wounds of our hearts. If you think about our hearts from a spiritual, emotional standpoint, our hearts are the symbol of love and God gave us hearts.

To love him and to love each other. And when we have a wound, there's a place where our level of capacity to love gets wounded. But what causes that wound is a deprivation of love or a distortion of love. And so, you know, whether it's unhealthy kind of love that hurts us, or it's the loss, the loss of love or the, the lost example of love between our parents, all of those things were, were made for that.

It's like, it's like the food that we need to drink and eat constantly. You know, the emotional, spiritual food is love. And if we're cut off from that, uh, in our family, even if we have it in other places, there's, there's a deprivation there that wounds us. And it, it's not just after divorce it's before divorce too.

Yeah. It's it's in any family, wherever love is in present, we're wounded and you know, it's really what sin is. Sin is the. a violation of love and it's the violation of our love with God and our violation, our love with each other. Wow, incredible. And I've always, you know, thought that well, if love is the meaning of life, if that's, you know, one of the reasons that we're here on this earth is to love and to be loved the greater our capacity to love the more free that we truly are, the lesser capacity to love, the less free that we truly are.

And so you can think of, you know, you can think through different habits, different acts, and you can ask the question, does this increase my capacity to love, or does it decrease my capacity to love? And you know, one of my struggles in the past was pornography. And, you know, if I'm honest, kinda looking through that lens of love and freedom, it certainly decreased my capacity to love.

And therefore made me less free because it taught me to use another person instead of loving them. And so that's always been helpful for me. And so this deprivation of love, doesn't just stop at love. It really impacts our freedom. Yeah. And so just to bring that all together, as you're describing it, it's, you know, the broken love is what led you to seek some kind of control over the love that you're missing.

And so there's a fantasy. in the pornography of receiving, being wanted, being loved, being nurtured, whatever those images are in the pornography in fantasy life mm-hmm . And then, you know, going to masturbation, which is a way of just comforting and ING of, you know, of, of changing the chemistry in your body so that you for a minute, get this euphoric release of pain, but it actually adds to a deeper sense of shame, a deeper sense of being unlovable, a deeper sense of being unwanted.

And then as you describe, it's also feeding this using manipulating kind of attitude, uh, where you then with real people, you know, I'm using you in the general sense. You with real people begin to relate to people as objects to be used rather than as people to be cherished. And then we get stuck in this cycle and you see how, when people enter into marriage in those ways, and they don't know how to love with a self-giving.

A mature chase love. Then it just repeats that pain from generational to generation. Absolutely. In, uh, in his book, uh, Jay stringer, he's a counselor out on the west coast, but he wrote a, an incredible book. You probably heard of UN yeah. Unwanted for anyone. Who's not familiar with throw it in the show notes for you, but unwant, his name is unwanted.

How sexual brokenness reveals our way to healing. And just like you said, Dr. Bob, he says that our fantasies and our attractions are actually a way to heal. Like if we really understand, okay, what am I drawn to in pornography? What am I drawn to? And, you know, whatever way I'm acting out, it, it can be a clue to the brokenness underneath the unmet needs that we're trying to fill.

Yeah. Uh, my next book is on that subject and I quote him several times and wow. I've found that as we pay attention to that and really walk into that, it really shows us where our wounds are. And so, you know, when I work with people who are struggling with pornography or other kind of sexual fantasy, I'm always asking.

Okay, what are you envisioning? What are you desiring there? And what's where is that rooted? Jesus. Show us where that's rooted. Holy spirit. Bring us back to the roots. And it's almost always in the places where de deprivation of love has been. Wow. Incredible. How it all comes together. Yeah, really does.

Well, do you have a title for your next book? I wanna make sure that it's called be restored. Awesome. Good name. I love it. Yeah. Be restored at the subtitle is healing our sexual wounds through Jesus merciful. Love. Incredible. That's gonna be so helpful for so many people. We'll be sure to promote it here on the podcast.

And we'll, uh, we'll definitely add it to the show notes guys. Uh, so you can pick that up. If you're listening to this at a later point in time, I wanna switch gears to the healing process. And again, we can do a separate shows on each of these topics, but for someone who's broken, who, who, but, um, you know, who has experienced a lot of trauma and who knows they need to heal, but they're unsure how to, uh, how does healing work?

Like what does that look like? What are the steps in the process? There's, there's lots of different pieces of this, but if I could put it in a simple process, I think the first thing is being with somebody that, you know, loves you, whether that's in marriage or whether that's in, you know, like I mentioned with coaches, whether that's with siblings, whether that's with therapists, whether that's with the spiritual director, whether that's with a good mentor, we all need to have a place where we feel secure and that place where we feel secure.

Has to be grounded in truth. What I mean by that is the love has to be genuine. The love has to have integrity to it because if somebody who appears to be loving us is actually just setting us up to use us, or really is not interested in being there for us. It just increases the wounding. Um, but having people in our life who can see us and know us and are trustworthy and have integrity and really know how to love in a, in a healthy way, uh, is, is healing in itself.

Even if we never do anything else in the process, being around people who love well is healing and nobody loves perfectly, but just in a grounded way. And in, you know, the person for me that, you know, Jesus is the epitome of that to me, I've I've received a lot of healing also in relation to the holy family.

Uh, just seeing what real love looks like. And, and in my prayer life, being able to enter into that even to this day, as part of my morning, prayer is, uh, just allowing myself to be little in union with Jesus, with the holy family and experiencing the love of the holy family. So the, the next pace, the next part of it is feeling safe enough to be able to share our pain and our trauma.

And, you know, for me, that was started with the things that came up in marriage. But then I actually had a, a panic attack, which I didn't know was all this pain coming to the surface, but it was around the threats that I was feeling in my marriage that drove me to therapy. Even though I'd been a therapist, I, I hadn't gone to therapy.

and in that process, I began to express for the first time, my pain, but it was really disconnected. It was just kind of like telling a story that I wasn't connected to emotionally. And I remember the first time I was talking about, uh, what had happened and, and my therapist was a woman and she began to cry and it was the first time I had ever felt somebody's compassion for my pain.

It was just like, wow, wow. You know how to process it. And then in my therapy, she led me, I couldn't go back to my pain from childhood. I couldn't get in touch with it. So she led me to talk about the pain and the present, how I experienced it when I would see my dad. And then he would leave where as a teenager, when he would leave, uh, after coming to visit a couple years after he left.

And I remember the first time in therapy, if she's asking me that and I, I had not cried in 20 years, I cried like a baby. When my dad left, you know, just. For 20 minutes probably. Yeah. And then I've been cry again for 20 years. And as she's asking me about how I felt and what I wanted to say to my dad, when he was leaving at the airport, I heard what felt like a teenage voice inside of me saying, dad, don't leave.

I need you. And one little tier started trickling down my face. And that was really the beginning of thawing. What had been a very frozen place of my heart. And not long after that, I had an experience of going on a spiritual retreat, which was really vital and a group of men that were really honest. And we could share our stories with each other.

It's called Christ news is parish. I dunno if you're familiar with that, but yeah, very powerful. And, uh, I had a, I had in that a time, I won't go into depths here. I talk about it in my NBU, but I had a time of prayer. Where I experienced, God's love, you know, the love of God to father that was profoundly life changing.

And I cried tears of joy the next day. So it was, that was the first time I really released tears, but these were tears of joy. And three months later, I had this healing experience where I relived my dad leaving. And as that's all happening, I just collapsed against a wall. You know, it's hard to describe this, but I just collapsed, sobbing, feeling the pain of me at 14.

And I also went over to that 14 year old boy inside my own heart and could love him where I'd been pushing him away. Uh, before that I also had compassion for my mother's pain and my brothers and sisters' pain. And that really led to a healing that started to transform our whole family. So my dad and brothers and I started going on retreats together after a lot.

Each of us going through spiritual renewal. Uh, my dad went through AA and was able to apologize. We were able to forgive him. We were able to talk about our story together. Uh, then there would be situations where our whole family was together and, uh, my dad would apologize in front of all of us and just beautiful healing times.

It was just God's grace in all of our lives. But for each of us individually, there's still this place where we have to go back and face the trauma and then really deal with the identity lies that got internalized that are still playing themselves out and the judgements releasing the judgments for giving and then releasing the vows and, um, just making, making conscious decisions to release and invite the holy spirit into those places so that we're living in love, not in fear and not in control.

So it's a lot more than all of that, but that's the best way I could put it in a summary. That no, that's super helpful. And I think the simple model, the framework that you just laid out is really helpful. And if people want to go deeper than going on your retreats, reading your books is, is the way to go.

What you said about, you know, the 14 year old, you just imagining saying, you know, dad, don't leave. I need you, man. That just gave me chills and almost made me tear up cuz it's so it's so moving. And I think all of us need to, like you said, go to that place to kind of confront that younger version of ourselves if we wanna experiencing any sort of feeling.

Yeah. And, and you know, there's a lot of resistance to facing those places because we don't wanna feel the pain and we don't want to need, uh, we don't want need, we wanna shut off our needs and just take care of ourselves. And so it took a while to get to that place where I could express that pain from a place of my heart, not just intellectualize.

Speaking of speaking of obstacles and barriers, what are some of the main obstacles that you observe in people's lives when it comes to healing? Things that prevent them from healing from going forward with this fear and control are big barriers, uh, unforgiveness, judgments, uh, vows, all those things we've been mentioning are barriers, identity lies, not feeling safe, not, not having a place where you can go and have somebody really attend to you and you have the room and space talk through it.

All. Those are different barriers. Dissociations also a big barrier for those who, who don't know dissociation. There's a protective mechanism that God has planted in each one of us to help us deal with trauma. And it's a way that we can compartmentalize the trauma and not face it all at once. And it's called dissociation.

So we can have a memory of something without the feelings, or we can have feelings without a memory, or we can just be. Knows something happened without having either feelings or real memory of it. And it's only in the process of trusting and coming to feel safe enough that that dissociation can break down enough for us to begin to express the pain.

So what I was describing is I had lived in dissociation of that pain for many years. Until I was ready in the safe enough environment to release it. And you know, part of the releasing is just grieving, you know, it's, it's going through the grieving process. Yeah. And, uh, there's so much to say there, but it's good to know that, you know, you can't overcome those barriers you have in your own life and you've helped so many people to do that.

I think one big barrier is often an unwillingness to open up to a relationship with God. And I know a lot of people deal with that, especially when they come from broken families. And the, the way that I explain it to people is, you know, when we're kids, the most powerful creatures that we know are our parents.

And so we tend to think, well, if mom and dad are like this, then God must be like this too. And in a very broken home, what often happens is we get this extra distorted image of God. And so we may be very. Sent to this idea of, you know, any sort of relationship with God where, because, you know, we, we just don't trust him.

We don't think that he is actually good. We don't think that he actually wants to, to love us and heal us. Maybe we think he wants to use us or something. You know, we, we project what we experienced with our parents. And so what would you say to someone who, um, really isn't ready for this God stuff? Like, can they still heal?

Like how do they overcome that? Yeah. I, I was looking for a quote here, as you were talking about it, because it's, uh, what you said is so true that was actually from you can't find it right now, but it was actually from former president of the university, went to from Michael scam. And he said, if, if dad was distant or frightening or mean, or absent or abusive, we come to see God that way.

And you know, God is love St. John tells. And so if we have a distortion in law, we're gonna have a distortion of who God is. We're gonna see him as tyrannical or as not present, or as not existing or as not caring or any number of things. And so it's, it's really part and parcel. You know, we can study theology, which helps us know the truth about who God is, or we could read the Bible, which is, you know, a great benefit to, to find out the nature of God.

But we can even read that with a filter. I remember for years I would read the Bible and I would just see this God who seemed distant, or God who seemed angry rather than a God who is love, who sees me and loves me and chooses me and is present with me and is the strength of my life. And so a lot of the healing processes, healing our image of God.

In fact, that's really the core of the healing process is healing our image of God, because if we can't see God, right, we can't see love, right. Incredible. And, and what's the first step in healing that disordered image of God, we can't get into all of it right now, but what's like the first thing you'd say where people need to start to heal that disordered image of God, to look at the people around you who love genuinely, you know, just don't go to God yet.

Just go to the immediate environment and who around you loves you better than anybody in a genuine way. That's, that's pure and true and faithful. And that begins to give you a little glimpse, a very small glimpse of who and what, and what it's like to have a relationship with God. So helpful, uh, about, um, your retreats, your ministry.

There's so much you do to help people heal. Uh, tell us a little bit about your retreats. Like what happens if someone goes on it? Maybe they're not sure. Okay. If I go on this retreat, like what does the agenda look like? How do they work? Yeah, we have a lot of different kinds of retreats, but let's say the most common one.

Is we go into different cities and put on a retreat from Thursday evening, Friday evening, all day Saturday. And it's usually me and my brother and sister Maryam, James Hyland. My brother Bart would walk through this journey with me and, uh, others on our team are there support. And these are also virtual livestream conferences.

Uh, so people don't have to be there to, to go through it, but it's a process of teaching, of sharing our own story of having experiences of reflection, time for reflection, time, for prayer, time to receive healing, uh, in those memories. And so each talk has a different theme. That's bringing us through the process and, and then within each talk, there's an experience.

And so people come through this and have profound experiences and. You know, just over and over and over again, people say these are life changing for me. There are some people who have the experiences while they're there for others. It's it's tools to be able to engage in the process on their own time.

Some people tell us that being home in their living room and doing it virtually created a safe space for them to walk through it. Other people say it was being with other people and walking through it with others and experiencing the presence of the holy spirit in the environment that allowed them to do it.

But whichever way works for people, it just having the time and space and the direction, which is what the conference gives the direction and the invitation to walk through this in a way. Gives a tremendous amount of hope and healing in the process. I think that's one of the biggest barriers. One of the most practical barriers is that we don't make a space or time to do this.

And that's why your retreat is perfect because it, it offers both a space and a time to do this. You said that, uh, people are still finding the virtual retreats just as effective as the in-person retreats. Yeah, it, it, it amazes us at first. We thought there was gonna be a drop off, but time after time, some people do it together with other people watching it livestream other people on their own, in their, in their own home.

And, uh, over and over, they said, we could feel the presence of the holy spirit through the whole conference in our home. And we thought we'd be missing that by not being there with everybody. And some of 'em said, you know, I could turn it off and just stay with what I was going through and experience the healing there and then turn it back on in my own pace.

So it could be really advantageous to do it that way as well. Awesome. And you mentioned transformations that people have experienced. Is there one story that just shows it so clearly that you can think of that shows someone who maybe came to the retreat, they were in a really rough spot, stuck, broken, and then coming out, uh, of the retreat or maybe some time later using the tools that you gave them was able to experience a profound transformation.

Yeah, it's, it's so hard because there's hundreds in my mind and I I'll just try to wow. Think of, think of one. Uh, this, this one actually was a, was a, what touched me is she was an older woman who had been living with her pain for 60 some years. She was in her seventies and on the retreat, she began to face memories of brokenness in the family and then sexually abused by her brothers.

And she had never faced it her whole life. She came through that weekend, working through all of that, having an incredible healing. And she, she was like a little kid. Couldn't wait to share it with us. The joy that she felt. And then the, the outflow of that in terms of the healing with her family, the healing of her heart, the healing and her marriage.

I I'll give you another one. Cause this one just blew me away. Just blew me away. There was a priest who came to our priest event, had tremendous healing. First of all, he read bee big yield. He came to our priest event. He had tremendous healing. Personally just changed his priestly ministry. He sent two people on his staff to come for their healing, but also to lead a healing ministry in their church.

And the husband didn't want to come. He had been suffering with depression for 40 years. Had not been able to work, had been on every kind of medication, been hospitalized. Many times nothing had really made a difference. Huh? I, I talk about him in my book, real suffering, but I call him Patrick in that story, uh, not his real name, but he ends up having this incredible experience of an event that happened when he was 12.

He had never made the connection that that was the source of his depression. But once he had this experience in prayer and actually experienced his 12 year old self receive the healing and also come to a place of forgiving his father for what had happened. Wow. He was released, went back to got off medication with his doctor's approval.

After they found out that it was lasting healing. He ended up talking to his family, his family, his dad wanted him to pray with him. He went and prayed with his dad. His dad received healing of his childhood wounds. And the wounds of that had happened between them, the mother and the sister. The way, it was just like, this just kept spreading and spreading.

And now they're leading a healing ministry and spreading this to thousands of people, hundreds of people just, I could go on and on of stories like that, it just blows your mind of what God can do in somebody's life when they just open themselves and, and how the impact of that just spreads to so many others.

Incredible, incredible. Well, thank you for sharing those stories. And if someone wants to experience this, if they want to go to your retreats, uh, how do they sign up for them? How do they learn more about them? Uh, our website is John Paul II healing center. It's www JP I, I all small letters, healing center.org.

And then there's just a list of conferences that are coming up. Some of them we do that are open to the general public. Some are just for priests or religious or training or for men or for women. We do all kind of retreat conferences for all different parts of all different populations of people. Find the one that that's there for everybody, or if it's a women's retreat or a men's retreat.

and then, uh, you can just sign up online. You can either virtually, uh, live stream or to arrange to go there in person. Incredible. And I know you guys, once a year, I believe you do a five day, uh, intensive retreat down in Florida. Is that right? Yeah. That's actually coming up right as this is being broadcast.

Uh, we're starting that and it's, uh, this year it's, it's virtual. There're gonna be a live Q and a and prayer ministry available for everybody that signs up. Okay. It's called healing the whole person five day and they can get on our website. And even if it's started already, by the time this podcast comes out, it's available for two weeks.

So they can, they can still jump in and, and take part in that. And you'll have somebody praying with you. You also have an opportunity for question and answers. Each day of the week on the first week and then one day on the second week. Incredible. I, I know this is gonna be so helpful for so many people and, uh, I, you know, look forward myself.

I haven't had the chance to come on one, but I, I will be going on one ear retreat. So thank you so much in closing out Dr. Bob, uh, what words of encouragement would you give to, to the person listening right now who feels stuck, who feels broken, especially due to the trauma from their family, the trauma from their parents' marriage, uh, what, what encouragement would you give them?

So being stuck, which all of us who have had trauma understand that that's a wound of powerlessness. So the first thing is just to name it. And then there's also a wound of hopelessness, which is, you know, this didn't get a change. So just to, just to name that, if you're a person of faith, I would just turn that into prayer.

God, this is a place where I'm powerless and I feel hopeless and I can't change myself. I need your hope. If you're not a person of prayer, what I would say. To be able to find some place that you can feel safe enough just to share where you are, because the reason why you're stuck and you feel hopeless is because your heart's shut down in those places and you haven't felt safe enough to go there.

And so if you can find somebody, whether it's family, friend, mentor, spiritual director, therapist, whoever that might be, uh, just to begin to share where you are. You know, I used to have a saying when I was a therapist, uh, you can't get where you're going, unless you start where you are. And, and so it's just being where you are and having a safe place to be where you are and allowing the person or the holy spirit, whatever you can trust to help you move.

Because you can't do it yourself. Dr. Bob, thank you so much for your time through your wisdom and for all the work that you do, helping people to heal and feel whole again. Uh, amen. I, I can be more grateful to, to you and your work, and I look forward to, uh, yeah. Working with you in the future and sending people your way to, to really go through this sailing process with you and your team.

So thank you so much for your time. Yeah, Joey, I love what you're doing and it is such a need and really grateful to have you as a resource for people that we're working with too. So thank you. And one other thing, we have a podcast, Jake, Kim and I, as a therapist up in Canada. We're, it's a, every other week right now where hopefully gonna do it a week, but we talk through this stuff all the time.

So that's another place where people can go if they wanna get in, get involved in it. Awesome. What's the name of that podcast? It's re restore the glory podcast. Restore the glory podcast. Awesome. Are there any other resources that you wanted to mention before we sign off? I know, you know, you can, people can grab your books on Amazon, but anything else that you wanted to mention?

Uh, yeah, we have a lot of talks online also and workbooks and, uh, online courses. People won't be up there pretty soon that people can take and work through on their own. There's lots of other ministries that are doing great work too, like yours and things like Unbound, counter ministries, and just many others around also excellent guys.

We'll make sure to link to those resources, the podcast, the website that Dr. Bob mentioned. So you guys, uh, don't need to remember all of them again, Dr. Bob, thank you so much. Thank you for leading the way you're really that the trailblazer and a lot of this work. So we're happy to follow on your example.

Thanks so much for your time. Thank you, Jerry pleasure.

One huge takeaway that could have been easy to miss. Is this almost every problem? In society is rooted in the breakdown of the family. Wow. That is profound. Like this is it. This is the root cause. This is the core issue of our broken world. And so if we wanna fix our culture, we have to fix our families.

We have to heal from the trauma that we've experienced in our families. So we don't just pass that on. And that single point how this problem is at the root of almost every problem is the single reason that I started restored. I think we'd all agree that there are tons of problems in the world. And, and there's a lot of organizations out there who try to solve all these sorts of problems, right?

You have addictions to alcohol or porn. You have eating disorders. People who've been abused, homeless, starving kids. The list goes on like there's endless problems and all those issues, all those problems deserve our time. They deserve our attention. They deserve to be solved. They're super important in their serious stuff.

And so we need to solve those, but often they're not the root cause they're rather a symptom of a deeper problem. Now we need to treat the symptoms, but we have to treat the deeper problem. Cuz if we don't solve the deeper problem, then the symptomatic problems are just gonna continue. And so at restored we wanna.

The problem at a root level. And so if the brokenness in our families is at the root of almost all the problems in our world, then if we fix that root problem, then we'll begin to fix all those other issues as well. And so that's why AOR are working so hard to help young people from broken homes to heal and build virtue because we believe that strong virtuous individuals will go on and build strong marriages and strong marriages are of course, the foundation of good solid families and good solid families are what are gonna transform our communities, our nations, and ultimately our world as John Paul II said, as the family goes, so goes the nation.

And so goes the world in which we live. And so it's so important that all of us begin our own healing process. If we've been wounded, especially wounded within our families, like we need to heal that brokenness. We need to build virtue so that we can go on and fix our broken world. But we can't heal alone.

It's actually impossible. We need the help of others. And if you want some help, I highly recommend Dr. Bob's healing retreats. You can sign up or just learn more about them by going to his website@jptwohealingcenter.org, that's JP. And then the letter I, the letter I healing center.org, or you can just click on the link in the show notes.

Once you're on that webpage, go ahead and click on the schedule button in the menu. And then on the schedule page, you can just look through the events, find an event that works well for you. Like he mentioned, there are virtual events that you can attend and they're just as effective. He said, and when you're ready, you can just click the register now.

Now, if you're not ready for that, I recommend reading Dr. Bob's book be healed. You can click on the link in the show notes, or just search on Amazon or wherever you buy books, be healed. It's really a great resource and it's helped me personally. And so I recommend it to you. So by his book, be healed. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 39.

Again, restored ministry ministries, just singular.com/three nine. Thank you so much for listening. I really hope this episode has been helpful for you. And if it has, I invite you to subscribe and to share this podcast with someone, you know, who could use it. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

Three Reasons the Risk is Worth It

4 minute read

I’m a planner. If I want to see you on the weekend, I’ve typically already reached out by Wednesday night. When I travel, I have a list of places to go, things to do and restaurants to try long before I leave. ‘We’ll play it by ear‘ is one of my least favorite phrases and if I don’t have plans for Friday by Thursday I get a little panicky.

I like to plan because it’s safe. Having a plan means having certainty. I know what I’m doing, where I’m going, and (most importantly) who I’m going to be with. Of course, plans change or go awry and I don’t always handle that well, but I’d rather have a plan and have it go wrong than just not have one…that’s unthinkable.

The flaw in my plan about always having a plan is that there are certain things you can’t plan for.

But honestly, the world we live in today is very conducive to my (slightly) obsessive planning tendencies. Smartphones allow me to check the weather, find directions to my next destination, know how long it’s going to take me to get there, get information on any restaurant or shop I want to go to, message friends instantly, shop, put things in my schedule and invite other people to events, have the lowdown on the happenings near me (and find out who that I know is interested)…it’s a lot of information that leaves little room for ‘what if’s’ and ‘maybe’s’ and especially, ‘I don’t know’s.’

I do know; and I’m very okay with that. We’re very okay with that. As a culture, we don’t like uncertainty…it makes us uncomfortable. We’d rather say ‘no thank you’ than to say ‘yes’ and then be disappointed if it doesn’t go as planned.

The challenge arises with those few but important things in which planning doesn’t work. Namely, relationships of any kind.

Whether you’re just starting a relationship, ending one or have been married ten years, here are some reasons love is worth choosing over and over…despite the risk.

1. Adventure

   Committed relationships often are associated with ‘settling down;’ we think that after the initial whirlwind is over, that all fun and excitement leave with it. If that were true I’m not really sure why anyone would want to date someone seriously, much less get married. I don’t think relationships should be boring; in fact,  I would say learning to love someone and sharing your life with them is the ultimate adventure. With the risk involved, the challenges faced and the growth that often results, there isn’t much ‘settling’ involved. Sometimes it doesn’t feel as exciting, and that’s where we are reminded to pursue fun things together and continue to learn about each other since there is always more to discover.

2. Growth

   Relationships challenge us. No matter how good things are at first, how much you love the other person, or how much you consider yourself to be a healthy person…difficulties are inevitable. Sometimes love can be really painful, which is why so many people don’t choose it. But for better or for worse, it is through challenges that we grow. Single life can be tough in its own way, but I have found the difficulties faced in relationships to be a lot more trying and a lot more fruitful. Learning to be vulnerable, to trust, and to put others before yourself are all important lessons we can only pick up in relation to other people.

3. Reward

   We’ve all heard the saying, ‘no risk, no reward.’ Risk often leads to failure, failure that can be unbelievably painful. But risk can also result in something more beautiful than we could have imagined. There’s nothing comparable to or more powerful than the love that lasts. If you’re like me and you’re in your twenties, chances are you’ve already been stung by love- or the lack thereof. It’s also possible that it happens again, but if we don’t keep trying, we lose it all – the chance to understand why it really is worth it.

Here’s to embracing uncertainty and the risk that is inevitable in love.

This article was written by Miranda Rodriguez, a contributing writer for the Restored blog. It has been reposted with permission. It originally appeared on her blog, First Class Act.

#038: When Our Families Break Apart, We Feel Homeless | Malcolm MacDonald

When our families break apart, most of us feel homeless. We lose our sense of safety and belonging. As a result, we go through life looking for the family we never had. 

In this episode, Malcolm touches on those points while sharing his story. We also discuss:

• His struggles in his relationship with his parents

• How he’s healed his relationship with his dad

• The undeniable truth that hurt people hurt people

• What he did to cope with the pain and problems in his life in unhealthy ways

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Those of us who come from broken families often go through life, looking for the family that we never had. Looking for a place to call home a place where it feels safe, a place where we belong. In this episode, we discuss all of that and more with a man in his late twenties, as he shares his story about how he suffered from the trauma of his broken family.

He opens up about his relationship with his parents, how those relationships actually became strained, because he felt like he had to pick sides between the two of them. And he mentions how, when one parent would badmouth the other, it actually hurt his relationship with both parents, especially the one that was being talked about.

He shares how he's healed his relationship with his dad. It's really a beautiful story. And he said it was so key in order to forgive his dad, to understand his parents, their stories, and the pain and the problems that they've dealt with in their lives. And so by understanding that it really helped him to empathize and ultimately forgive his dad.

We talk about how hurt people hurt people. Often when there is a breakdown in a marriage or a family it's usually because one or both spouses. Are really hurting. Like they're really dealing with a lot of their own personal issues. And so that obviously plays out in the family and the lesson we can learn from that is if we don't deal with our brokenness, if you don't deal with your brokenness, you will pass it on to others.

It's scary to think of that, but it's so true. And we especially will pass it on to the people closest to us, our spouse, our future spouse and children. And so the best thing you can do for the people in your life that you love is to heal, to take ownership of the pain and the problems in your life to take ownership of your brokenness and to seek healing.

And if we don't the dangers that will end up repeating what we saw in our own families. And that happens far too often. That's exactly what we're trying to prevent here. It. My guess makes an excellent point about those of us who come from broken families often feel homeless, but since we have that deep need to belong and to feel safe, like I just mentioned a little bit ago, uh, we really need to find a place where we do belong and feel safe.

Cuz we have to feel that void. We can't just leave it empty. And he owns up to the unhealthy ways that he's coped with the pain and the problems in his life. He talks about his struggle with pornography, with drinking drugs, overworking. These were all attempts. He says to just feel good and to drown out the loneliness, depression, shame that he felt.

But as you'll hear it actually made him feel lonelier, more depressed and more ashamed, but thankfully his story doesn't end there. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 38 and before I introduce my guests, I wanted to make sure you know, that we are now accepting questions for the show.

That's right. You can submit your questions and we'll answer them. On the resort podcast, they'll either be answered by my guests or by me. Now you can ask anything that you want, maybe you feel stuck or unsure of how to handle the pain and the challenges from your parents' breakup. Maybe you're unsure of how to begin healing or continue down the path of healing.

If you've already began that process, maybe someone you love or you lead is going through their parents' divorce or separation, and you need to know how to help them, whatever your question will give you specific and actionable advice right here on the show to submit a question that's really easy. Just three steps.

Go to restored ministry.com/ask Joey that's one word again. Restored ministry.com/. Ask Joey, fill out the form, uh, with your question. And then as we're able, we'll answer your question on the show. We'd love to hear from you. My guest today is Malcolm McDonald and Malcolm has been working in the field of youth and young adult ministry.

For the past eight years. He has worked with various nonprofit organizations, including the culture project, net ministries, and other schools and churches across the country. Focus on fostering community and leading faith formation. When he isn't in a youth ministry setting, you can find him exploring different coffee shops, backpacking, outdoors, going to the gym, or quoting the office in his spare time.

He currently resides in Dallas, Texas. So let's jump into my conversation with Malcolm,

Malcolm. Welcome to the show, man. It's great to have you. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Let's dive in. How old were you? When your parents, uh, separated in divorce, I just turned 19 years old. So I think it was a couple months after that. Okay. So you were, were you away at college? Yeah, I was just graduating high school.

Just about to go to college pretty much when everything went down in terms of like the separation and divorce. So you were right in the midst of it. Tell us a little bit about what happened and how you reacted to it. Yeah, so I just finished graduation in high school and I think, you know, there's been a number of years that have kind of built up to, uh, this point where there was a lot of, you know, there was a lot of division already taking place between my parents and, uh, my sisters and things like that.

So, uh, the moment that I do remember everything kind of taking place, I actually don't remember the conversation there, there wasn't one conversation about separating. There was most likely a lot. There were a lot of times that it was talked about main mainly with my mom. Uh, it was around the time that. I didn't even really have much of a relationship with my dad at that point.

Um, we were going through a pretty rough patch and I really was just talking to my mom and she was, you know, talking about it pretty often about the separation. And, yeah, so I, I remember the day, I, I do remember the day of moving outta the house and it was during that time I was going through just all of the emotions, kind of just going through all the memories.

I was sitting in my, my living room couch and all these memories of just growing up in this house. I think at this point I was, I lived the majority of my life in this house. I think I moved in there when I was six. So all of the memories of the summers, the goofy moments, Christmas holidays. Yeah. We, we would do funny, like lip sync dances and stuff, my sisters and I, so that , that was great.

You know, I was always for like one Republic. I remember doing all these goofy dances and stuff. We were actually, we're a really goofy family, just in general. That's awesome. But yeah, just all these, like memories were just going through with my family, but especially. Remembering the moments of my parents, uh, loving one another.

Mm. You know, like my, my parents laughing, dancing in the kitchen. I remember one memory of my dad during one Christmas, he gave my mom her wedding room that was, uh, her wedding ring that was formed into a heart as a necklace, because it could no longer fit her ring finger. So he took it and for a couple months, and he was going to this dealer, uh, working away to, to give it back to her so that she can carry it with her.

And that was a really emotional moment, not just for my sisters and I watching this, you know, we were witnessing the love of our parents, but you know, all of these memories, I remember flooding through my head. I was sitting on the couch, thinking this isn't ever gonna be again. And thinking that this is the, the one time that we're gonna be walking away and those memories aren't gonna continue building.

So yeah, there was a lot of those memories and recollections that was kind of shattering if you will. Yeah. And, um, Yeah. So all, all I remember it was during this time. Yeah. My relationship with my dad didn't exist. We had a really rough patch, like I was saying, uh, we really didn't see eye to eye on a lot of things.

And so over time as my parents were separating my mom, I was growing. I was really close with my mom at the time. And it's kind of just turned into the point where the conversations with my mom, whether it was in the car or she was cooking food, uh, for me and my sisters, uh, those conversations that we used to have growing up really turned into, uh, saying really terrible things about my dad and that really, I think drove it fueled the anger and the hurts that I already had between my dad and I.

So I remember when I was sitting on this couch, going through all these memories, my dad was walking through the living room at one point to get to his, his bedroom. And just even just looking at him, I was super angry. Just fueling all this hatred towards him. And there's all this fear of him at the same time.

So I think at that point, I, all I wanted to do was run away. All these memories. I had kind of just flashed into anger and thought, okay, well we're gonna be leaving, so I don't wanna deal with any of this anymore. So that was a very painful day. Kind of just looking back on it. That was not fun. no, yeah, no, seriously, man.

There's so much there. And, and thank you for, for sharing and being vulnerable and coming on the show at all to, to share this, I know it isn't easy for a lot of people. I, I think you hit the nail in the head talking about memories. I think memories can be really painful for a lot of people who come from broken homes and, you know, thinking back like you, like you did, I can do the same thing with my family and thinking, oh, those good moments where I saw my parents together where things were peaceful, things were, were good.

Uh, they were happy and, and then, you know, things fell apart and thinking back there's like this, there's kind of two emotions that go with it. There's like this gratefulness, I think. That man. That was so good. And I'm grateful that we had that, but there's kind of this sting at the same time. It's like, man, I really wish that we had that now.

And I've noticed this with a lot of people who come from broken homes. People like us is that we're kind of all looking for the family that we lost or the family that we never had. Oh yeah. We all want, we have that like deep desire in us and it can be really painful at times. So I think it's, it's great for a lot of people listening to hear that, because often we don't give a lot of attention to, you know, how painful some memories can be.

And uh, often we may even just forget about things that were good in our parents' marriage and our family because of that, the pain kind of just overrides them, uh, as well. Yeah. So both of those things I think can be true. Yeah. You know, it kind of reminds me of, do you know the Pixar film inside out? Oh, I love that.

Yeah. It's a great movie. yeah, it's super great. If you're, if you're listening to this, I really recommend. Watching this movie, because it goes through period of this girl from Minnesota who moves across the country. And they're going through all these changes, you know, school, life changes, friends, change her parents, you know, they're going through things and she just feels so out of place, not belonging, but there's all these little characters in her head that are representing different emotions.

What is it like joy, there's joy, uh, sadness, fear, you know, there's like another one too, but I think Kager it's. Oh yeah. of course. That's right. the best character that literally the best character. Oh my gosh. Such a side of tension, but there's a scene where it's a fight between, uh, the, the girl is going through a tantrum and the they're sitting at a dinner table and the wife is trying to deal with it.

And she looks over and she taps her, uh, husband's foot and he looks up and it goes into his brain and it shows all of them kicking back, watching football. he's like, uh, I think, uh, the wife is trying to say something and then as they're like, as he starts dealing with his daughter, The anger starts taking over and there there's that one line where he is like, all right, I'm gonna put the foot down.

All right. Price, the red button 3, 2, 1. that's hilarious. Oh gosh. So yeah, so, so no, no, I think it's a, yeah. And, and just to clarify for people who haven't seen it, that basically you can see inside the minds of each of the family members and, and other people throughout the movie, so, and you can see kind of how their primary emotions, those five emotions play out.

So yeah, go ahead. So yeah. Yeah, no, that's great. So, but what, what I was thinking is that there's these different emotions that they experience and they come out in these different colors. And so there's core memories. And a lot of the movie kind of goes around the core memories that are, you know, things like belonging, uh, home, life sports, but they're all very specific.

And the core memories are the moments that have really formed them. And there's this moment where I've seen change. And oh gosh, I can't, I can't pin the point on which memory it was, but there was a, a core memory of remembering her parents, uh, picking her up after scoring a hockey goal. Uh, cuz she loves playing hockey.

And I think it was a moment that her family wasn't around when she wanted to, when she was trying to practice. And I think one of the parents wasn't there or no, sorry, one of her friends wasn't there, something like that, you know, and the core memory that represented joy turned into both sadness and joy and every time that she thought of that memory, uh, there was that pain and there was that sting and it was like this happy memory was like both painful and joyful, you know?

Wow. But it, it kinda reminds me of like what you're saying, saying Joey about, you know, those memories we have of our family before divorce were really wholesome and there's some of them that I, I will always remember. Being really beautiful memories with my family, that we were all like, whether it was like joking together, spending time, my family went camping a lot.

We went, I, I grew up in new England, so we went to New Hampshire or Vermont and we would just camp for the weekends and stuff. We would take family vacations in Canada, really, really beautiful, like Nova Scotia, prince Edward islands. And you know, a lot of those memories will look back and after the divorce, you know, it's, it's a happy memory, but it's a memory that you remember, you just can't experience again, the same way as, especially as a family.

So there is that, that longing in our hearts for wanting that belonging. And I think, you know, that's, that is what we deserve as, uh, just as humans that we belong to a family and that we're meant to be in relationship and communion, uh, with family. And I think family, you know, it's the core of our societies.

It's where we experience love. It's where we experience belonging and, uh, fulfillment. And it really is a pathway to knowing how to love, uh, how to love one, another, how to, to love if we are going to have families one day. So yeah, I think that movie, like it hits deep sometimes, you know, it's like, oh man, I relate to this movie so much inside out is it's great.

It's a great movie. Yeah. Yeah. You wouldn't think like an animated movie would be able to like, get you so emotional and like move you so much, but I can relate to, it was powerful movie. And, and I second, what Malcolm said, go ahead and watch that movie. If you haven't seen it, I think it will. It will be, uh, helpful for you.

I, uh, man, I can relate to so much of that. Like one memory. I remember my siblings and I would play hockey, uh, in, in our house, like inside the house, we were kind of crazy like that. And uh, so we we'd have these like little hockey sticks, um, and we'd use, uh, laundry baskets on like either side of a room and then we'd have like a little ball or little puck.

And so, uh, my dad would often play with us and, and it was so fun. Like we would just be like sliding around, just like shooting the ball, like as hard as we could at the net, it, it was so such a blast. And we also would play hockey in the basement. We had an unfinished basement, so we'd put on our roller blades and we'd just be like flying around in the basement.

That was like way too small to be playing hockey in and, uh, and it was just so fun. So, so I have those memories too, but then also, you know, the, the painful ones and it's just, there was such a fracture in my own. When, you know, those things stopped and it was really never the same after that. Uh, of course, and, and it's really, really difficult.

And, you know, I find myself missing that and, um, wanting to, you know, find a place where I can belong, because I think what often happens is we don't really feel safe even in our own families after this fracture happens. And it's, it's really sad. And I think a lot of it can be repaired, but man, there's always gonna be a scar there.

And yeah, another memory. I remember just a little being a little kid in like the back seat in my car seat and just, you know, driving home from family party or something and just feeling so safe in the presence of my dad and my mom. And, you know, when they broke apart, of course it was like the opposite.

So I can relate to, to everything that you went through. Yeah, definitely. And, sorry, remind me how many, uh, siblings do you have? Yeah, I'm actually one of six, so pretty big family. Oh, wow. Okay. That is. Quite a bit. And, uh, brothers and sisters combines. Yeah. So one only one girl. So , she's the princess and then, you know, the rest of us boys, so yeah.

Well, that's awesome. I'm just, I'm just trying to imagine you. Playing hockey in the basement with all of the boys and your sister. That is . That's great. That's so, oh yeah. You know? Yeah. I mean, my, my friend, one of my friends sees the same way too. He's got, I think he's similar. He's got six, sorry. He's got five brothers and one sister and they're all like super rough and stuff, but she's, she's a tough one too.

I think when you're one girl growing up in a households family with a bunch of boys, you know, she's gonna be pretty tough. Oh yeah. That's great. yeah, she's awesome. We love her. She's like, I think we've balanced her in a lot of ways. I'm sure we've driven her crazy, but you know, we kind of ground her in some ways from, you know, just to, she's able to really relate with our kind of roughness and she was right there with us playing a lot of sports a lot of the time.

Yeah. That makes sense. I was, I was the opposite. So I have, I have three sisters. And I'm the only guy in my house. So I think, yeah, just growing up, I started getting more like physically aggressive and I wanted to wrestle and, you know, I would take sticks and just, try to like play swords or do something dumb.

And my sisters would get so mad. They would not have it. And I remember my sister getting mad. And so that was one time I do re remember wrestling with her. And somehow we ended up in the bathroom and we both threw each other at the same time, landed on the toilet. Destroyed it like the toilet broke and I remember my dad like running up what's going on and we look at each other and then we start, you're like, oh, she did it.

She broke the toilet. no Malcolm broke the toilet. so that was, oh my gosh. So funny, but yeah, you know, it's so funny, even in those moments of, you know, getting in trouble and doing really crazy things in the house, uh, there was even, yeah, even when we got in trouble, there was still a moment of, of that belonging and, and safety that you're talking about.

And I remember taking a lot of family trips in the, the car. Uh, we would have an, a passenger van, and even though there was only four of us, but we just wanted the space and things like that. Yeah. Those it's funny how car rides and family trips, you actually feel super safe and it's really, you have like a lot of good memories, just like being in a car, cuz you're spending a lot of time together.

You're not like having to say anything, but. Yeah. I just remember that being, like you're saying there was, there was the comfort to that and there was definitely a lot of safety, but yeah, after, after experiencing divorce and the family and the separation. Yeah. You just can't that, that's something you just can't get back to.

And there's not like a, I like how you said there's not like a place you can feel like you have like a belonging again, just because it's not, it's not that family life. So I, yeah, after the separation and divorce, I became a missionary for this nonprofit organization and they pretty much just sent out all these young adults and groups across the country for about nine months going to different churches and schools.

And you're working with a lot of young people, usually from the ages of sixth, sixth grade to graduating seniors in high school. And there was those moments of getting ready for Christmas break. We get like two weeks off. And during the summertime, there's maybe like two, two months that you got off. Yeah, that was, that was really painful for me, cuz that was pretty fresh coming from a divorced family and still wrestling with the reality of what was going on.

And so everyone's talking about, oh, I'm gonna do this with my family. We're we do this every Christmas and I'm just REM I'm just sitting here thinking I'm not gonna have any of that. I don't have that. And feeling like I was almost like homeless I felt almost homeless in a way. Wow. And that's when I would just call or I would talk to one of my close friends and say, Hey, do you mind if I just hang out for like a couple weeks, whatever for Christmas.

And I, I would just spend time with other friends and their families and thinking I could run away from. The feeling of belonging. You think that if you're not going back home, you don't have to feel it, but then when you're surrounded by other people, other families that you don't even really know, then it's also kind of painful mm.

Yeah. There is that like the importance of family is there is that safety and belonging you experience, but as someone from a divorce family, that's something you can't really experience, uh, in the same way. Yeah, no, I'm I'm with you there. And so again, kind like we were saying before, experiencing that in another family can be really beautiful and really healing, but at the same time it can be painful and yeah, that, that you said it really well feeling homeless.

That's super interesting. How else did you see, uh, your parents divorce affect you in the years that followed? Yeah. Well, that's a, that's a great question. Well, you definitely. Are affected whether you want to admit it or not. I think in the first couple years, I would just think like, oh, I can deal with this.

You know, this isn't going to really affect me. And then what I ended up doing was repressing those feelings and those emotions. And so whenever, whenever I was meeting people and getting to know new friends and, and things like that, eventually the question would be asked and I would always dread it when they ask.

So how, like, who's like your family what's like your family, like, and I would just dismiss it by striking it off and just giving like a two sentence answer and then trying to go into another subject mm-hmm cause I could feel like this, like welling up inside of all these deep emotions of, of like anger and sadness.

And I didn't wanna deal with those feelings. I'm also, especially as, as a man, it's, it's harder expressing my emotions and I feel like it. It looks almost like a, a weakness to kind of get emotional in front of other people. So I would always, you know, avoid the topic, not really want to talk about my family.

And if I did, like eventually I started opening up to a couple friends and I would really get super angry. I would, I remember this one time. I think it was getting close to, oh man, what was it? I, I just talked about it for a while. and I got really angry and I went down into the basement. I didn't know what to do, but I just wanted to just smash a bunch of things.

mm-hmm and I had this, why can't I think of, I had a punching bag that was hung up in this garage. Uh, I was living in Seattle at the time working at a, a church and, uh, I took some, my friend's boxing gloves, and I just kept punching that. Actually I took the gloves off, cuz I wanted to feel the pain in my hands and just trying to get this pain out of my system and this anger out.

And I punched that bag until my hands. Like my knuckles started bleeding a little bit and started cutting open some. Some of the, the skin. Wow. And even afterwards, I would just, I think that's when I realized I have a lot of deep emotions and it is really affecting me. And I, I think in that first year too, was probably the most painful, especially because I had a bad relationship with my dad and I avoided phone calls from my mom, cuz it would end up turning into conversations about saying bad things about my dad.

Didn't talk to my dad for the first two years. I totally shut him out of my life. And I would wake up with nightmares pretty often. I, I think it was happening at least on a weekly basis, but I remember just having all these nightmares of my dad, trying to chase me and trying to kill me. And I just thought, wow, this is really violent.

And this is, uh, I would just wake up in sweats and over time, it, it did subside the more I talked about it, but a lot of the pain, it was most painful when I held it in and when I didn't acknowledge it. And so that really, you know, I think it did affect me in those ways, uh, at least for the first couple years.

So there was a lot of repressing feelings and memories and avoiding conversations. Yeah. There was a point when I realized I actually do need to acknowledge these feelings and I need to find a way to, to deal with them. At least in a healthy way. You know, I think a lot of us it's, it's easy to find really unhealthy ways to deal with it, but that does absolutely nothing it actually makes it worth dealing in an unhealthy way.

I would agree. It just adds more problems and, and often more pain into our lives. I know those absolutely true. In my case, uh, speaking about those unhealthy ways that we have to fall into, what were some of those for you, aside from the things that you mentioned the first few months? Yeah, I, I grew actually even leading up to the divorce.

It, it wasn't even when the divorce happens, but I think in the midst of seeing my parents sleeping in different rooms, you know, seeing like arguments, taking place, you know, myself, my sisters being dragged. Conversations with parents about the other parent, which I think happens to I've I've heard of others that have experienced those things as well.

Oh's so common puts you into, oh yeah. It puts you into such a awkward position. You don't know how to deal with it because you love both your parents and it just doesn't make sense. But yeah, I, I grew into an addiction with pornography, uh, masturbation, I think I wanted to just escape reality and I was trying to fulfill that feeling of belonging and, and wanting to be loved.

And the divorce really kind of started messing a lot with those thoughts and those feelings. Um, I also gave, started giving. Peer pressure a lot more. After a few months after, you know, graduation, when my parents were separating, I was working in a job as a salesman I was selling a kitchen. I was so crazy.

Nice. Um, yeah, that was actually a lot of fun. I really enjoyed that. That was great, but that's awesome. I worked probably 70 hours a week. It was an unhealthy amount, but I just tried finding ways to get out of my home. And I started giving into a lot of peer pressure with the people I was working with. So I started drinking, going to parties and I started smoking marijuana.

Yeah, I think at one point I got my wisdom teeth taken out, which was very painful. I was given a prescription, uh, for oxycont and, uh, started using that, uh, more, I, I started taking more than the recommended amounts, you know, I, as it was starting to like thin out I, I, I was taking it as, yeah. I was trying to thin it out.

So I have more of it as much as I can for the longer period of time. But I was just trying to find ways to just feel good and not experience the loneliness, the sadness, the depression that I was going through. And it wasn't helping because afterwards you'd feel more lonely and more depressed and more ashamed of yourself.

Really. And yeah, I was just trying to find different ways of ex escaping the pain. And in the end it was creating a vicious cycle. Repeating itself, like a never ending cycle that just wouldn't ends in. I, I think it really, like when I, it was a couple months after that I started going to, uh, I joined the missionary organization and that actually really helped myself get out of that mess that I was finding myself in.

Wow. Yeah. I can relate on so many levels. You know, people who know my story know that I, uh, you know, struggled with pornography and that was such a, a curse and a poison in my life. And man, yeah, it it's like it's such a vicious cycle. You said that. It's like we're in a hole and we're trying to get out the hole by digging the hole deeper.

It's like, well, it's not gonna work. You need to go the other way. And, uh, it, it just, again, leads in more pain and more problems. And so we just, our left kind of feeling stuck and left feeling pretty hopeless. Like, you know what now, like I've already kinda started down this road. I'm already addicted to this or that.

And. I don't think I there's any way that I could beat it. And man, how debilitating is that? Yeah, no that's so for real. Yeah. So you, so you experienced those things as well then? Yeah. Yeah. And no, for some reason I didn't go down the road of, of drinking and drugs. Um, thankfully I, I, that was a grace because alcoholism does run in my family.

I don't know how I didn't get into that, to be honest with you, but definitely, yeah, the porn, the masturbation, things like that. I definitely struggled there and that was, that was my drug of choice, so to speak. And that was the way that I numbed pain. And, uh, yeah, it really, uh, was so helpful to hear the truth about human sexuality and, you know, Jason Everett has been such a mentor to me over the years and I know, I know you love him too.

And it's uh, yeah, it, it was so helpful to. His message of how, you know, porn is really the opposite of love. It's using another person for your own pleasure and, uh, it will destroys your ability to love. It destroys your ability to one day, have a, a healthy marriage, which I think we all want. And so, yeah, thankfully I was able to get out of that, um, similar to you and start learning to deal with the stress, the pain and the problems in life and in healthier ways.

So I wanna, I wanna go there, what changed and like, what are maybe two, three things that, that have helped you cope in healthy ways and helped you heal in those years that followed joining? Yeah. Joining the missionary organization was a huge game changer in my life. I, I, like I mentioned earlier, we were working with a lot of teens in different parts in the country.

And a lot of these young people I was encountering were also going through a lot of their own issues and struggles. There was a lot of family issues, actually that I, I noticed with the teen that I was working with. And I remember one in particular, I was in Vegas back in 2013. And, uh, a lot of these teens that I was working with came from, yeah, some really bad families, uh, a lot of gang violence.

There was a lot of family abuse. A lot of the, I was working. I remember I was working, especially with a bunch of 13 year olds. And I thought I had nothing in common with these teens until a lot of them started opening up and sharing about their struggles with their relationship with their father and were asking me questions about that.

And that was during a time that I was also trying to deal with that on my own. And so I was, uh, giving them some advice and things like that, and just really like sharing, you know, the pains and the struggles of what I was experiencing. And these teens man, they were opening up and, you know, there was a lot of change that I saw over the course of the time that I was working with them.

And so that, that was really healing for me. You know, sharing about your pains and your struggles, you, a lot of the times, I think we, we think that I'm only, I'm the only one that's struggling with this. I'm the only one that is experiencing this loneliness, this pain, this depression there's everyone else has things that are perfect in their life.

But no, I'm I'm I see. A lot of people have struggles and a lot of pain that they go through, especially, especially in the, in terms of families. So a lot of that became a, a path of healing for me, was, was helping others that were also going through family issues and especially in the divorce and relationships with parents, uh, who were experiencing divorce.

Yeah. So that was, that was one way that I was able to. Cope with it. And, you know, even over, down the line, you know, I I've been working, uh, I, I work as a youth minister at a church here in, in Dallas, Texas, and yeah, I think this has really been huge for me. It's so life giving be able to help foster community, uh, for young adults, for young people that are in high school and middle school.

And there's, there's something about that feeling of belonging. That's really important to me. That's kind of stuck with me. I think even after experiencing the loss of belonging from my family life, you know, there, there was something that I felt in myself wanting to, to create a place that was like a, like a second home for those that either want a sec, that wants a second home or don't have that feeling of that placing of a home life.

Mm-hmm . Wow. So that's, uh, been really huge for me. Like when you start actually helping people, I I've noticed that's really been a huge path for healing. I think another, another way that I've been able to deal with it, you know, I did. Over time. Yeah. I, I think acknowledging my pain, talking about it with those that I trusted started, uh, seeking professional help.

A lot of times professional help is given this bad rep that it's only for those that are completely compromised as human persons. That it's only for like, I, I think we would almost considerate something for those that are really mentally ill mm-hmm , but I. Anyone can experience healing when it comes to seeking professional help, because they know how to, you know, they're really reflective.

They ask really good questions and it's just a really safe place to talk about what you're going through without feeling like you're gonna be judged, that you're gonna be looked differently and they provide really great practical. They give a lot of practical advice and steps on your path for healing.

And that's something that I've been able to experience and continue seeking. So yeah, those are some, uh, some really good ways that have been good for me. That's given a healthy avenue. For experiencing, uh, healing. That's amazing. No, and all the, all those are great pieces of advice for anyone listening, especially anyone who's feeling kinda lost.

Who's looking around and saying, man, my family pretty messed up. And a lot of the stuff that's happened and pretty pain, it's been pretty painful for me. I, I think you nailed that Malcolm, when you said really the first step is just acknowledging, like the awareness factor starting with that. And then from there, you know, you could do, I think all those things that you said where you're talking with other people.

Going to get professional help you're uh, maybe even trying to reach out and help people who might be in a little bit of a worse spot than you are. I know that was really helpful for me growing up, because I dealt with a lot of things. You know, I dealt with anxiety, I dealt with depression at different points.

I went through a phase, especially in high school, just kind of pulling away from people, dealing with loneliness. And I ended up, yeah, just kind of becoming this hermit, like someone who did, you know, go out and spend time with friends. I still did some things like, you know, I was an athlete, so I was playing sports, but I just really kinda shut off my heart to other people.

And man, that will just hold you back in life. If you do that, especially when you're dealing with, with these serious wounds and mm-hmm I think often we don't. Give enough, um, validation to people who come from broken homes for one reason or another, we kind of just expect people like us to just kind of suck it up and move on with life.

It's like, okay. Deal with it and get on. Like, there's a lot of people who go through this. Um, they seem to be fine. And so you should be fine too. Um, but what we're learning through the research and through stories and through like this ministry is that's not true. Like this stuff it can be, and usually is very traumatic and we need to heal in a very serious way.

And if we don't the danger is that one we're gonna go and repeat it ourselves. Or, you know, we're just gonna hurt people or we're gonna, you know, do the things that you and I did Malcolm, are we getting these really bad habits? And then our lives just become miserable and nobody wants that. So, yeah. Yeah.

I, I love, I love your advice. I love what you said. Uh, I'm curious in your relationships going there. Yeah. What, what was that like? How did you see, uh, the effects of your parents' divorce affect your, your dating relationships and, um, and. Yeah. You know, that's such a, yeah, that's such a good thing to talk about.

And I think we don't really think how it affects us. When we walk into relationships, I was dealing with a lot of, a lot of fear of when there were fights that would break out or, or just like arguments that this would, this would trigger for me a lot of fear that this person would walk away from me. And I think after experiencing my parents walking away from each other, then it's almost a translation of, well, this is, I, I think a lot of it's kind of just matched it as a reality of, of relationships.

So yeah, I experienced a lot of, a lot of fear that things would end. I didn't really have a lot of hope that relationships could work. And especially when there were arguments that that would break out. So that was something that really did. My relationships that I, that I have been in, in the past, it's really, that's really, it.

It's taken a lot of reminding myself that that's not always the case. And if that person like really does truly care for you, they're not gonna walk away. Like love is takes work and takes a lot of, uh, forgiveness too. I think forgiveness is one of the most important things. And looking back in my parents' marriage, there, wasn't a two way street on forgiveness and that's really what is needed as a, as a basis.

Just healing, I think. And, and recognizing we, we are not perfect human beings, you know, we have weaknesses, we fail other people mm-hmm , but it's really just that mercy by forgiving one another. That makes a huge difference. I, I, I think that has been a big lesson for me. Those, my family struggle with forgiveness, which makes sense.

You know, you come from a divorced family and yeah, there, there needs to be forgiveness on the basis for there to. Improvements in growing closer relationships. So does that answer your question for yeah, no, no, absolutely. So I, man, and people are affected in different ways in their relationships. One of the things that I've seen as a common trend is that that fear that you mentioned holds us back from truly loving fully.

We, we love at arm's length or maybe we don't even love to begin with. And that prevents us from experiencing the intimacy that we all long. And so we're like robbed of this joy of this really beautiful thing of being vulnerable to someone who, you know, is gonna love you. And who's gonna be there for you through anything, you know, of course that's made it more real in a marriage than a, a dating relationship.

Cuz of course you're figuring out if it's the right fit at that point. But yeah, it's, uh, I, I think there's some real, real barriers there and about forgiveness. That's an excellent point. I think it's so necessary in broken homes because there's been so much hurt and I wanted to go back to something you said that you saw in your family and especially.

Talk about this because there might be a parents listening right now. And parents, if you're listening to this, one of the things we, I just want you to know is that badmouthing your spouse in front of your kids is just so harmful. Like Malcolm said it so well, uh, how it affected him and the negative effects that it had on his relationship with his dad.

You know, it obviously wasn't the entire thing, but it played a big role. And so, you know, if you needed to get things out, if you need to vent, you know, go to go to a sibling, go to an aunt, an uncle, a pastor, or counselor, your attorney, if you have to, but don't pull your kids into it. And there there's can be a tough balance when maybe you need to tell your kids some painful and true things about your spouse, but always take very, very much time and care and try to figure out, use discretion and thinking, do they really need to know this because the bad mouthing can be so damaging.

Would you add anything to that? No, I think that's really great. As a teenager, when I was going through that, I was in such a, a vulnerable place already dealing with the thought of. Separation of divorce. And I, I love, I love my parents, uh, even today, even though there's differences I have in, and there's still healing, that's taking place between my parents.

Yeah. I, I, I do see that, uh, that did affect me. Uh, I remember just thinking as my mom, uh, was sharing a lot of things about my dad, about what she was going through and the, the things, the bad things that she was talking about. My dad that I, I just didn't think was that necessary. Yeah. That really did hurt my relationship with not only with my dad, but also with my mom.

And it changed our relationship where I, I felt like I was kind of just taking her burdens as a mother and as a wife. And it just didn't feel right. It. It felt weird. yeah. I don't know if that's the right way of saying it feels weird, but yeah, it, it definitely like, I mean, it made me avoid calls with my mom.

It, it, it hurt my relationship with her. And yeah, I, I think as a parent, you know, those, those are effects that, that I have experienced that I've heard other, uh, other friends who have gone through divorce, experiencing different things. So the things that you, you do say to your children do hold a lot of weight for your relationship.

It does. Yeah, it is a very sensitive thing. Going through a divorce as a child, as a teenager, growing up, you're already dealing with your family going in different directions, your, your siblings, by going in different directions that not only does it affect your relationship with your, with your parents, but your siblings too.

It's, uh, very, very different. So words hold a lot of. As a parent, I think, yeah, I can agree more and it's difficult cuz the parents are really hurting and they need a place to talk about those things. And often the kids are just like the most available. They trust them. And so they just turn to us, but it can be, it can be so damaging.

I, uh, I want to go back to something you said too about the brokenness in your family prior to the divorce. I know a lot of times just the lingo that we use when we talk about divorce, uh, it is a traumatic event. It is something that's serious. It is kind of the, the summit or the pinnacle of a lot of bad things that happened before it.

But it's not like that other bad stuff. Wasn't there. It's not like this random event happened that just like went off like an Adam bomb. It's like, oh, where did that come from? It's like a lot of times there's just been so much brokenness, so much pain in the family for years and years and years. It just finally got to that point where, you know, the parents broke apart and there is something to say.

It is a very distinct and painful thing when your parents actually separate when they get divorced. But that doesn't mean that. There isn't a lot of trauma that happens within the family. Even if parents do sit together, but things are really broken. Right? Yeah. That's, that's so true. Just thinking about the events that have led up to it.

Yeah. I, I remember seeing friends going through divorce when I was in middle school, uh, even entering into high school a little bit and just thinking, oh, that's not gonna happen. But then, you know, after a couple years you see a lot of small things happen and, uh, yeah, there's a, there's so much brokenness, uh, that takes place over time.

Yeah. You know, like parents, like there's small steps like parents sleeping in different beds, you know, fights breaking out more and more often having those conversations with your siblings and your parents and just seeing events going down. I remember my parents going through a fight during Thanksgiving probably.

A year and a half before we'd gone through the separation and my grandparents were there and my parents were fighting and they were ignoring each other. And I could see my grandparents trying to hold it together. And it was . It was so awkward. Mm-hmm . And I remember my, my younger sister, Olivia, she didn't understand social cues very well.

Growing up, she just had a funny way of just saying things exactly as they are, that you wouldn't necessarily say in a situation. But I remember there was a really awkward moment of this silence and my sister said, Why is everyone so awkward?

I love it. I remember thinking like, why'd you have to say that out loud. Now I want to leave. we're all feeling it. We're all thinking. You don't need to say it, but we don't wanna admit that, you know, so gosh, it's, uh, it's so funny. Yeah. They're just like a lot of moments that kind of build up, but, you know, there was something like you said earlier, that kind of, I, I think who said this, someone said hurt people, hurt people.

Hmm. And I really believe that like, if, if you're broken and you don't go on a path of healing, you're going to hurt other people without even realizing it, it like, like you're saying like in relationships and stuff, the ways that it could affect other people is the lack of, of vulnerability with either, you know, whether it's like someone you're dating or if it's, if it's your spouse, that brokenness is going to tie down into other parts of your, your relationship.

So, yeah, I think in, in marriages, you. So some of the divorce that I've, that I've heard of, you know, I, I could see from E even, just from my perspective and my family, my, my parents were broken. My, my mom growing up, had a lot of abuse in her life, growing up from her family. And that really affected the marriage, uh, between my parents and myself growing up, my mom went to the hospital lot as a, when I was middle school, she was dealing with PTSD.

Um, she was in the hospital for a long period of time. Yeah. And that was coming from the trauma that she experienced. And, uh, that really did affect, uh, her relationship with my dad, obviously us as a, as a family, uh, my dad had a lot of things that happened in his family that he was dealing with that gave, he, he dealt with a lot of anger and took it out on us kids.

I didn't really understand at the time, but I thought, wow, why does my dad hate me so much? But , I didn't realize he was actually going through a lot. And it was coming out into the family. So hurt people, hurt people and, you know, divorce that take place, you know, that that could be. In every case, but that could be a result of hurt.

People hurt hurting people. So healing is so important, you know, like, yeah, acknowledging that you're in pain. If you don't acknowledge it, it's going to come out on someone yeah. Uh, or something or affect you personally. So it, it's not a one moment thing of a divorce. It's a multitude of steps and it's a many broken pieces that eventually break the whole, the whole thing, unless you start dealing with it, unless you start acknowledging that, that pain and wanting to see if there is like a way to heal from it.

Yeah. That's sorry. I just wanna, you ran ramble base on what you were saying, but you know, I, I just feel like that's, you know, that's what it. No that's super relevant. And I, yeah, I, I would say, you know, you said maybe not in every case, I would almost be in every case. I, we would, well, we would say almost always, because based on the stories we've heard at restored and the people we work with, the research we've seen, uh, there, there's just a lot of brokenness that typically runs through.

Generations, but especially in the parents' lives. And a lot of times the things that surface the problems that surface in the marriage are often because of unresolved things, uh, at some point in the past. So you hit the now in the head, you know, hurt people, hurt people. Totally true. And that's one of the reasons that we exist at all.

Our vision is to help, uh, reverse the cycle of divorce by helping young people heal and build virtue, because if we can heal and build virtue, we'll be these strong, healthy individuals. And then we're gonna go into our relationships and we'll build strong marriages and strong marriages, of course, of the foundation of good.

Healthy families and good, healthy families are really what are, what's gonna transform our culture from a culture that's just so broken and lost the one that's living, uh, a happy, meaningful, uh, existence. And so it, you you've said it so well, we can't overstate healing a lot of times can be thought of as this just kind of like nice and unnecessary thing, if you have time for it.

Cool. Do it. Um, but what we're saying here is like, if you don't do it, the stakes are really high. Like you may end up repeating exactly what you saw in your own family. I don't say that's to scare you, but that's just what the research shows and that's just what we've seen. And so now you I'm really glad you brought that up.

Yeah. Oh definitely. You know, you gotta gotta find a way to heal, you know, gotta acknowledge it. It's a lot more painful, I think not acknowledging it. And you just can't escape pain. That's really what it is. And you have to face that pain and it may feel uncomfortable and may feel scary wanting to just go through it and then face.

But from what we see, you know, what you're talking about, what I was going through and continue healing from is, you know, there could be a lot more pain. There could be a lot more pain and, and hurt in the end mm-hmm but we gotta go through it, you know, but it's worth it. It's so worth it because there's so much hope.

There's so much hope. I think when you can start that process. Yeah, absolutely. And speaking of hope, how, how is your life different now that you've, you know, gone through some of the healing process, you've made some progress now. I'm not saying that, you know, you're, you're done or your life is perfect at this point, but, but you have made a lot of progress.

I'm just curious. How does your life look different now? Yeah, so I, I definitely have a lot of growth. I think in the last few years, I think about two years after I went through the divorce in my family and I was still, uh, working with a nonprofit organization on my own. I really felt this pulling to, to talk to my dad again.

Mm, because there, there was still like a longing for, you know, that reconciliation, but it, it, I mean, it took a lot of courage to get to that point. What, what I recognized that I, yeah, that really helped me was forgiving my parents. And that's incredibly difficult to do because you see all the, the hurt and the pain that you, you go through, that your sisters go through.

And, and so I, it's not uncommon to blame your parents for the divorce and the separation in your family. Mm-hmm anyways, I sent an email to my dad I couldn't, I, I didn't wanna call him, you know, whatever. And I said, Hey, do you mind if we can have a talk? And so I wrote down a list on my, in my journal of all the things that he failed at.

And I, I was so ready to be like, all right, dad, you know, you were terrible at this and this and this , it would really bad. Yeah, I know. So I, I got with him. I didn't actually. Yeah, that was, that was very scary. Just, I, I was very afraid of him being angry at me being super upset at me. So when I got on the call, I, I had all these thoughts going through my head and I don't know how it happens, but you know, I, after a couple minutes of saying hi and doing a little bit of small talk, I ended up asking my dad to forgive me.

And I, I just started just apologizing for the failure as a son. And this was not how I, I was expecting it to go. But yeah, I, I ended up apologizing and yeah, I, I think I, yeah, I got pretty emotional and my dad started apologizing for all the ways that he's filled me as a father. Mm-hmm I think it ended up being a two hour discussion with him and yeah, I think it, by the end, we were both crying, you know, ever since then, there's been a lot of healing.

In my relationship with my dad and it, it was sort of a struggle, you know, here and there. And we definitely had a couple fallbacks and, you know, a couple steps forward. But at this point in my life, I probably talked to him multiple times a week. I, I feel very comfortable going back home. I, I started going back home.

I, I think about two or three years after. And so I, I actually just got back home from Christmas. Uh, I went back to visit him and I talked to one of my sisters. So yeah, I, I think that has been really huge. And when it comes to my mom, uh, we still have a lot of struggle. I, I still have some struggle with, with my mother.

but I it's, it's a constant. Yeah. I just think I I've taken a lot to try to forgive her and my heart. And I've, I've recognized over the years, she's gone through a lot in her own life, through her own childhood traumas. So mm-hmm, , I think that's made it a, there there's things I learned about her and her past life that I didn't recognize that I, I didn't know that she had gone through.

Yeah. And, and that really helped me to put in, put into perspective kind of the repercussions that have taken place over the years that ended in the divorce. So I, I think forgiveness is very difficult, but I, I think that's been really huge for me was. Just learning to forgive my parents and taking that step forward, especially in the relationship with my father, that's profound that you went first.

Like you didn't really plan on it, but when you, once you got on that phone call and that conversation with your dad, you decided that there were certain things that, you know, you felt better, you could have done better at. And you decided to kind of be the one who went first, who, who was vulnerable to start with, and then that opened up your dad's heart.

And that helped him to, you know, ask for forgiveness as well, which that's amazing because I think often if you were to go into that conversation and say, these are all the things you screwed up on, I would imagine, I know I would feel this way, him getting very defensive and perhaps, you know, maybe it would've started an argument, some sort of a conflict, but the fact that you went in there and you just shared your failings, it sounds like it opened him up to, to do the same.

Yeah. You know, you're definitely right. I went into that conversation thinking, and I think a lot of us have this. They struggle as well, thinking that if they only know what they failed at, I can help them see what they're failing in to resolve the issue. Mm. You know, like you're saying that actually it puts up a lot of defenses, uh, for the other person because you're attacking them.

Yeah. And I honestly don't know how I got to that point where I was able to do that, but it, it took a lot of courage. It's very vulnerable, you know, like you're saying, because there, you open up yourself in a way where you don't know how they're going to react, and that's a scary, that's a scary jump to take, but in the end it was, it was the best thing I could have done, I think in that situation.

And you know, we've, we've gone really far ahead since that time. That's awesome. Yeah. I, that's a great point about, you don't know how they're gonna react. He could have reacted really poorly, you know, not, not to say your dad's like a bad person or anything, but that is one possibility when you approach a person with a problem or talking about something that's really difficult that they may not react well.

And so it's amazing that he reacted well. And I bet that yeah. Was extremely healing for, for your relationship. It sounds like it was. And I also wanted to recognize that you, yeah, you sound like a pro at negotiation in a lot of ways. Cuz some of the principles you use are from basically people who are really good at negotiation are really good at having difficult conversations.

And one of them is whenever you go into a conversation to talk about something difficult, it's really, really, really important to talk about it from your perspective, saying things like I feel instead of saying like you, you, you, and because it, it for everyone listening, you know, if you're need to have a difficult conversation with anyone, but especially with your parents, if you go in and say.

You know, I feel that the way that you talk about mom, the way that you talk about dad, uh, it, it makes me feel this way. Then it's all about you. It's not about them necessarily. Like obviously their actions are making you feel a certain way, but you're not pointing at them, condemning them because of what they're doing.

You know, if, uh, if anyone who's listening here wants to figure out how to go into a, a difficult conversation that has high emotions. Uh, there's just a shameless plugin for a book called crucial conversations. Mm. That was put together by a lot of just different high, like business consultations, uh, and, and higher upper management.

And it's been really useful for both professional and all conversations. I'm also not being endorsed by crucial conversations, but if they do hear this, uh, you can definitely pay me because , I think it's worth it. so, uh, I love it. Yeah. I think it's very important to know how to, to go through those conversations.

I didn't know how to do it at the time. That was really. That, that was a very lucky, I think that that situation rolled out as it did. Yeah, no, I think there's a lot of great lessons in it. And the, the other thing you said about your mom, understanding her background, understanding her store, understanding kind of the ways that she's been harmed over the years made you a lot more compassionate to her, a lot more empathetic to her.

And you know, like you said, there's still room to grow there, still room to heal. But I, I imagine that that has helped so much, uh, like you mentioned to, to just understand her, her background, her struggles, her story. Yeah. I think it's really important to know the other person's perspective and in the moment in the, when, when it's like a heated moment and all these deep emotions start coming out, it, it gets very difficult to think outside of what you're feeling.

and it's easy to forget that that other person has their own story, their own feelings, uh, their own perspective that is different than yours and that most of the time we all think it's yeah, we all have different perspectives and it makes it much easier when you come to a better understanding. So for example, you know, I think a lot of us recently, a lot of movies have been coming out, showing these villains that have actually had a deeper story on Netflix Cobra.

Kai's. Kind of like one of the hits where it's the bully from karate kid. And you just think he's just like this, this punk, this bully, but then you know, this, this Mo this, uh, series comes out and you actually start to have this sympathy for him because you didn't realize how much he went through. And he had his own pains and struggles, and you're like, oh man, this guy's actually like, not that bad.

He's actually pretty good. Yeah. And I think that, I think there's some truth to that. I think no one is coming into the situation, uh, situation as a, as a culprit, but everyone has their own story. They have their own struggles, their own brokenness. And, uh, it makes it much easier to forgive the other person when you recognize that they've gone through things as well.

It doesn't make the situation any better, but it, I think it definitely helps to forgive. And, and I think that is the first step is, is to forgive in the. Love it. I couldn't agree more about the movies you mentioned. I I'm a big, uh, Christopher Nolan fan for those who don't know Christopher Nolan, he's the director who, uh, made the Batman movies, Batman trilogy, like Batman begins the dark night, dark neck rises, inception, memento.

You know, all these movies that are just like really thought provoking. One of the things that he says when it comes to villains is that people who villains, who are more relatable, um, in a way are more terrify. Because we can almost see ourselves in them in a way. And I think that's very true in life that a lot of times we kind of, yeah.

Villainize people or push them off to the side thinking, oh, then they're so bad. They're so evil. They're so, um, the things that they do are so wrong, but in many ways, it's like, well, what's the difference between me and them. And the honest truth is that there's actually not too much of a difference. Like they're just maybe further down the path that one day I could potentially go down if I'm not careful.

So I think, uh, yeah, I know Christopher Nolan, like specifically tries to kind of show that part of villains, humanize them in a way and not just say there's not just these crazy people they've, you know, been hurt. They've been through a lot, they've gone down the wrong path, for sure. Not making light of that.

Um, but they're not totally different than you and me. Wow. That is very terrifying. I did not, I did not hear that before, but he definitely does a good job of showing that in his movies. Absolutely. But welcome. Uh, was there anything else you wanted to add about kinda how your life is different now? How it looks different now, even though of course you're still in the process of healing.

Yeah. You know, I'm definitely taking some steps to continue, uh, growing in myself and, and continue the healing process. So yeah, I'm, I'm seeing, I'm looking for a therapist. Yeah. I, I just recognize there's some of those deeper wounds that I need to take care of in order to continue the process of healing, continue the process of, you know, forgiveness with my parents and hopefully one day, uh, have that reconciliation with my, my mother.

So, uh, definitely there's still, uh, yeah, there's still some things that I, that I go through, but I think for the most part, I feel much more peace with myself. I'm really happy where I am in my life. I can. Back in my family, more objectively without a lot of deeper emotions that used to bother me quite a bit.

But I, I do feel like I live in a lot more freedom than I did in the past where I felt enslaved by my emotions and my anger. But I, at this point I feel a lot more at peace with myself and I, I feel that there's a lot of good, that's been taking place within the family itself. There there's still my, my family's still healing.

And some of them won't talk to each other, which is normal mm-hmm . But I think, uh, there's much more acceptance at this point with family than there was, you know, five, six years ago. I hear you, man. And, uh, I'm glad that there's progress being made. It is a long journey and, uh, it's kind of this infinite goal where we we'll always be working on it to some extent, because yeah, I don't know if it'll ever be completely healed where, to the point where we're like, okay, I'm done.

Um, I I've often given the example of like fitness, you know, I never wake up one day and say, okay, I've reached the pinnacle of fitness. I will never do anything else with fitness ever again. I will never eat anything healthy. I will never work out. I'm good. Um, that's not, not gonna happen, so we need to stay at it.

But, but I do think it's possible to, to find closure, to learn how to, you know, cope with some of the struggles that we have to learn, the skills that we need to, to live really good, meaningful, um, beautiful life. And, uh, yeah, I could tell that you're you're well on your way there, man. Yeah. Thanks, man. I really appreciate that.

Yeah, man, I really appreciate you sharing your story. I just wanna. Give you an opportunity to, to everyone listening. Who's who's maybe going through a lot right now that they feel broken. Uh, they feel stuck. They're just going through a lot of pain, a lot of problems because of the brokenness in their family, whether their parents are divorced, separated, or maybe there's have really ugly marriage.

Like what encouragement, what would you give to, to people like that who are listening right now? Yeah, that's great. You know, if you are dealing with divorce or separation right now, or you're going through a lot of these emotions and, or maybe you're, you're, you're falling into different unhealthy patterns, know that you're not alone in that, that you there's, uh, a really great line from one, uh, a Catholic Pope from 20, 30 years ago, his name was John Paul II.

And he said, you are not the sum of, uh, your failures and weaknesses. He says, you are the sum of the father's love for you. Basically. You are not, you know, whether you're you're religious or maybe you're not, uh, just know that. You are not identified with the brokenness in your family. Uh, you are not the cause of the brokenness that you are experiencing in your family, but you are meant to be loved that you belong and that there are people that love you and that care for you and want to be there to support you.

And it's going to take time, but there is, there is hope. I know the experience of just thinking this is never gonna end. I feel claustrophobic. I, I feel like my world is crashing all around me. No, those experiences are very real and those, uh, those feelings are very, very real, but know that over time and over finding that support seeking help, man, that is that's gonna help you so much.

And there is, there is a light I, man, I can't believe I just said that there is a light at the end, but seriously, there is like hope there is hope for you. Mm-hmm and it's not always gonna be this. Time is so hard to deal with because it's slow, but it's going to, it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay in the end.

Uh, there's a, a great TV show. I , I highly recommend it. It's a Netflix series called it's okay. To not be okay. And it shows like the, these people that are dealing with their brokenness and acknowledging their brokenness over time. But one of the, the title for it is it's okay to not be okay. But I think that's so real is just to acknowledge that it's okay.

Not to be okay. You know, but know that there is a place for you. There are people that love you that supports you. And there is, there is hope for you, so good man. If people wanna connect with you, how can they do that? Yeah, you can, uh, connect me, uh, through Instagram, either pop young church. Uh, that's what, one, one of my Instagram accounts.

Um, I'm also at Malcolm Mac 93. If you wanna shoot an email, uh, you can shoot it at. M max Donalds, P Oop, plano.org. Awesome, man. And guys, we'll throw that stuff in the show notes so you can, uh, easily contact, uh, Malcolm, if you'd like to, man. Thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate you being here and just sharing and appreciate all your advice, all your wisdom as well.

Yeah. Thanks for having me. This is great.

One trend that we've. Ever sword is that the people who typically share their story with us to put on the blog, or maybe come on the podcast or share their story have typically been women. And so it's great to have Malcolm on, to hear from a man about how, you know, his broken family has affected him and what he did about.

And so men, we need to hear from you women. We wanna continue hearing from you. We really appreciative of all the stories that we've received, that you guys are trusting us with really some vulnerable stuff. And so if you wanna share your story, we'd love to hear it sharing your story. Actually, isn't just good for other people.

It's actually good for you too, in order to be able to share your story and communicate it, you need to reflect on it. And that act of thinking back and reflecting on your story, which so few of us actually do is actually healing on a neurobiologic level. It makes your. Healthier makes you healthier. And so, uh, reflect on your story.

So good. And then if you write that story down, which I'm gonna invite you to do in a second here, studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are actually less depressed. They're less anxious, they're healthier, they're happier. And then if you take that a step further and you share that story with someone else, someone who can really receive it and listen to you in an empathetic way, that is also healing on a neuro biological level.

Now it does help other people too. It can give someone guidance and hope. Like maybe there's someone who's five years behind you, or even your same age or 10 years behind you, whatever. And they're going through some of the things that you went through. They can really benefit a lot from hearing your story, knowing that they're not alone.

They're not the only one who went through that. Maybe learning. From you and figuring out, oh, maybe I should try this in my life or that in my life. Uh, but also just feel hopeful that there's light at the end of the tunnel. And so you can really help a lot of people by sharing your story and sharing your story is really simple.

It's just three steps. Go to restored ministry.com/story. Again, restored ministry ministry is just singular.com/story. The form on that page will guide you to write a short version of your story. And then we'll take that and we'll turn it into anonymous blog article. And then from time to time, we'll invite those authors on the show on the podcast to share their story.

Now that's not a requirement if you submit your story, but from time to time, we will reach out and ask, uh, the authors of those stories to come on the show, to talk a little bit more about their story. And so we'd love to hear from you. We'd love to hear your story. So go ahead and share it ever. Restored ministry.com/story today.

The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 38. Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful for you. I invite you to subscribe and I invite you to share this podcast with someone that you know, who could really use it. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#037: Trauma: What It Is and How It Damages You | Margaret Vasquez

What is trauma? How does it affect a person? Today, licensed trauma therapist Margaret Vasquez answers those questions and more:

• Why your parents' divorce, separation, or broken marriage can be so traumatic

• The antidote to trauma, which will surprise you

• How trauma therapy works, why it is so effective, and the incredible result she's seen

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More Than Words: The Freedom to Thrive after Trauma

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

A word that we use a lot these days and we use it a lot on this show too, is the word trauma, but what exactly is trauma and how does it affect us today? We dive into those questions and we give you guys answers. We speak with a, a trauma therapist, a counselor specializes in helping people. Who've been through something traumatic in their lives to heal so they can feel whole again.

And by listening to this episode, you're gonna get a bunch out of it. We're gonna talk about why is your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage? So traumatic. My guest shares the antidote to trauma. Something that she's discovered through years and years of counseling. And I think it'd be surprised by the answer.

She also shares her story, her personal story. This isn't just someone who read this stuff in books and learned it, but she's been through a lot herself. She came from an extremely dysfunctional family. She ran away from home and. 17. She was misdiagnosed with bipolar hospitalized twice. She says she was taking basically every medication that you can imagine.

She was super depressed. She couldn't keep a job. And she was actually on the brink of suicide. And as the last stitch effort, she went through trauma therapy after her counselor recommended it and something amazing happened immediately. Her life started to change. She no longer felt depressed. No longer felt anxious, suicidal, hopeless anymore.

And now she helps a ton of people every year through, uh, an improved version of the model that she went through. And so, again, this is just someone who learned this stuff in a book and has helped people, which there's value to that. No doubt, but she's been through it herself. And so she talks about how trauma therapy works, why it's so effective and some incredible results that she's seen in her own practice.

And so if you or someone, you know, feels broken, who's been through something traumatic in their life. This episode is gonna help you so much. Not only is it gonna give you hope, but it'll also give you some really practical things that you can do some really helpful information so that you can heal and move on with your.

You do not wanna miss this episode, keep listening

what to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce or separation. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 37. And before we dive in, I just wanna give a quick shout out to those of you who have left us a review on apple podcast.

Thank you so much for doing that. Sheele left a five star review and said, I've always said that I'm okay. That what happened couldn't have changed who I was. Of course it changed me. I still run away from many topics related to divorce, but listening to this podcast, isn't like hearing a bunch of psychologists.

Tell me all the ways that I'm really. Okay. It's so much more helpful to hear this is not okay. And it never will be okay, but I can be. I love that. Thank you so much slowly for, for that review. And I wanted to ask you, would you leave us a review as well? Some of the benefits for us is that it really helps us to know how we're doing to serve you guys.

How, how the content we're producing is helping you or maybe not helping you. It also gives us some more visibility in apple podcast so we can reach more people. We can help more people. And it's actually really easy to leave a review in the apple podcast app. If you click on our show, the official name of the show is stored helping children of divorce.

Just click on our show, scroll down to ratings and reviews that under that section, there's two ways to leave a review. You can tap to review. That means just clicking on the stars and that's helpful. But the thing that's most helpful is if you click write a review that's just below and that gives us more insight into your experience with the show and it doesn't need to be long.

It can be 60 to 90 seconds of your time. And if you need a question to help you prompt your review, answer this question, how has this show helped? We really appreciate the time you take to leave a review and we take those super seriously. So thank you guys for leaving reviews. My guest today is Margaret Vasquez.

Margaret is a licensed professional clinical counselor. She developed the N I method that stands for neuro reformatting and integration of trauma therapy as an adaptation of the ITR model. And that stands for instinctual trauma response model. We're gonna talk about all this in the show, uh, but with a focus on connection as an essential ingredient to attachment health wellness and post-treatment growth, Margaret has treated clients of all ages and backgrounds for over 12 years, considering an expert in the field of trauma therapy in this method of treatment, she has appeared on numerous television radio shows and has been cited in numerous books.

And she also has extensive experience presenting to non-clinical and clinical groups. I'm so excited for you to, to hear from Margaret to learn from here. So here's my fascinating conversation with Margaret Vasques.

Margaret, welcome to the show. I really appreciate you making time for this. Thanks, Joey. I appreciate you inviting me. I wanna start with a, a really basic question. What is trauma? What's the definition of trauma? The simplest definition of trauma that I like to use is any event that overwhelms a person's normal ability to cope.

And so kind of, you can kind of imagine, like, in that definition itself kind of contains the idea that that varies from person to person, right? Because what overwhelms one person might not overwhelm another and that kind of thing. So it's a real, it's real particular to the person. So I kind of like that, that like, understanding that because.

If we understand that, then we don't compare and go, oh, well, this didn't bother that person, but it really bothers me. And so what's wrong with me, you know? So it, it really all has to do with our perspective in the situation and our perception of it, and really our personal experience of it as to if we're traumatized by.

By an event or not. Okay. No, that makes so much sense. So if you would, what's an example, I guess, of a traumatic event that you typically see. I know, based on what you said, it varies for people, but what's something that's kind of a typical traumatic event. And I know some people talk about trauma in terms of like a big tea trauma versus a little tea trauma.

What would some examples be to help people listening right now who may not have a handle on that? Yeah, sure. Um, so one of, so kinda some of the obvious ones would be, um, abusive, any kind. You know, physical, emotional, spiritual, sexual, verbal, natural disaster or accidents can be traumatic as well. It it's so funny because so often people say, well, couldn't have been worse.

You know what? I went through, like, couldn't have been worse and I'll say, well, it could always have been worse or we wouldn't be having this meeting. Right. Mm-hmm cause we're still alive. You know? So I think it's, I think it's more, it makes more sense to compare it to what we're made for. Instead of couldn have been worse because if something bothered us, that's enough reason.

You know, if it was traumatizing to us, if it overwhelmed my, my year, whoever's personal ability to cope, then that, and of itself is reason enough for it to be trauma. I often say like in trainings, I call it trauma. When I'm with my brothers, we call it childhood. You know, so, and I guess it's just kind of make that distinction because people can tend to, to minimize and kind of beat themselves up for, for things bothering them.

Right. And kind of say, I should have been more thick skinned or tougher, or I'm being wimpy or self pity or, you know, or whatever that these things are getting to me. And it's really not. A matter of that. So some of the things that people typically think of as trauma are like combat or violent crimes, but it, it can really run the gamut.

One of the biggest ones that I work with with people is biggest meaning one of the ones that that's the most affect most affects people is bullying. And, and that's really sad cuz that's something that's kinda rampant today. Definitely. Wow. And it's um, I, I think you were a spot on in saying that a lot of people think of trauma as just this huge event in my life.

Like you said, a big natural disaster, something very dramatic that happened like going to war, you know, something like that, but it's a great point that it can be something that maybe is less dramatic. It can be something that, uh, a lot of people may write off as not being very important or being something that they should be able to have a handle on.

Yeah. Well, you know, I kind of, I kind of got scolded in this back in early days of practice and I was working with a young veteran and. He had been through a lot of verbal abuse from his father. And he said to me worse for him than hand to hand combat was verbal abuse from, from his dad when he was a little boy and kind of intuitively like just in my gut, that made sense to me.

But I just, you know, I just asked him this to say more about that. And he said, well, when I, when I went in the army, they gave me a gun and said, people are gonna be shooting at you. Go defend yourself. That wasn't how it was when I was seven years old, little boy sitting at the breakfast table, eating my breakfast, you know, and my person who was supposed to be protecting me was just verbally decimating me, you know?

And while that kind of really put it in perspective, you know, absolutely. Like in one case he was totally unprepared. And then in the other case, he had training, he had somewhat of an expectation of what he would be going into, but that wasn't the case in his childhood. Yeah. And I, and I think also kind of going along with that is the person that he expected protection from was instead the assailant.

Right. Whereas like over in, I don't even remember what, what country he was fighting in Afghanistan or Iraq or where it was, but he didn't ex he didn't have an expectation of safety. He certainly didn't have an expectation of protection from the enemy. Right. Instead like the person who was sadly. Playing the part of the enemy was the person he should have had, you know, he had a right to have expectation of safety and, and even protection from mm.

Yeah, absolutely. That, that makes so much sense when it comes to a person experiencing trauma. How does it affect a person again? I know you said it, it varies per person, but what are some common themes that, that you've. It's one of those things that just can really run the gamut. So I'll get in. I can get into more of explaining my answer to this, but, but it affects us physically, always.

And that has to do with how the brain encodes trauma, like the biological response that happens in the brain when trauma happens. So first and foremost, it affects us physically like it in a way that we can't even see, you know, that just in terms of how it becomes encoded in our, in our brain. Um, but cause of that, cause of how it becomes encoded.

Can emotionally continue to be experienced, like it's still going on. So you can take any of the painful, negative emotions from a traumatic experience. And, and those can continue like on a, you know, hourly, daily, weekly month in and month out, that kind of thing continue to be experienced. Like it's still happening.

So, you know, for example, fear, anxiety or anger, sense of helplessness or hopelessness. Those think things can continue to be experienced like way down the road, you know, for, for years and years, because also because of how it becomes encoded in the brain, it can affect us cognitively. So our ability to, to problem solve can be compromised.

It can make it really difficult to articulate things, but be able to put words on things, to express how we're feeling, which can then leave us. More isolated from other people because we really feel like we can have, have a hard time communicating and help getting other people to understand kind of where we're coming from or how we're feeling.

It can also affect just kind of simple things as far as like the ability to prioritize or be organized, can affect reading. Comprehension can affect our ability to do math, can also make it where memory is really hard. Just the ability to remember things, short term memory, that kind of thing. And it can also affect us spiritually just having to do with that sense of like powerlessness and helplessness and kind of that sense of like, if we're we're in that mode where we, we feel isolated and alone and like kind of like we're on our own, right.

Mm-hmm so we're kind of like abandoned and rejected can kind of project that onto, onto God as well. And so, and it can end up affecting us relationally because all these things can leave a person really feeling like. They're broken and flawed. And so then because of that can leave people tending to kind of isolate or tending, to feel like really kind of desperate and needy.

And so relying that much more on, on other people. And I can, if we, if we stay stuck kind of feeling like very angry, then obviously that can kind of come out and really unfortunate ways in, in relationships also, you know, kind of left feeling abandoned or rejected. You can. Tend to project that onto other people where it's not really objectively the case, but the kind of the messages that we took on and the traumas can become like these lenses that we then like, tend to look at the world and other people through.

So it can really, really complicate situations relationally. Yeah. No, that makes so much sense. So thinking through, you know, the people that we work with, uh, and have restored, you know, people who come from broken homes or parents are separated or divorced, uh, it reminds me of someone who, who mentioned that they, uh, felt like they were almost in competition with, or had to defend against their spouse.

And, uh, based on what you just said, how trauma can leave your brain, experiencing the trauma again, and again, as if there's no time limit on it, it's like an infinite mm-hmm , I, it almost made me think of that. And I've experienced this too in my own marriage where, you know, I, I kind of react to things in not a logical way.

It's like, I'm not using the front part of the brain, the, um, smart part of me. And it just seems like I'm reliving, maybe something that happened in the past where, you know, I, I found out that my parents were separating and that was certainly traumatic for me personally. And, uh, anyway, I could see how, uh, people who come from broken homes maybe could project, like you said, some of the brokenness of their parents onto their future spouse.

Yeah, absolutely. Because if we, you know, in our mind, if our takeaway is like, okay, I'm not gonna let anybody treat me. This again, because that feels really bad and really painful. And so then anything that, that we could perceive from our fear, right. Instead of from, from like real clarity and sense of truth, but more of kind of that nature reaction and going like, oh no, this is that right.

And so it kind of itchy trigger finger, that sort of thing. So, and that's actually for a. Biological reason because the, the limbic system, which is the emotional center of the brain takes less than 20 milliseconds to respond to a stimuli. So something that's a reminder of, you know, whatever painful thing takes less than 20 milliseconds to respond.

But the smart part of our brain, like you're talking about takes more than 500 milliseconds to respond, right? So that, that knee jerk reaction sadly goes off like 25 times faster than the smart part of our brain's able to, you know, kind of show up to the task and try to make sense of it. Wow. No, that is fascinating.

And it makes sense why? I mean, it makes sense why it is that way. Cuz in survival situations, we, we really want that, that part of our. The survival part of our brain to be that quick to react. But it is unfortunate when that's like constantly on, in, you know, our relationships and everyday life when it really doesn't need to be.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Kind of leaves us like wired for, for war, but war's not a really good thing to be wired for when you're in a marriage. Right. Or in a family or, you know, or with friends, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. No, that makes sense. Huh? It's this just a side note I thought of, um, I know, uh, a lot of special operators, like Navy seals and guys like that.

They have a really hard time with their marriages and there's some practical, logistical things like that. Cause they're away from home a lot. Um, and you know, I'm sure there's more factors involved, but I wonder if that's part of. My understanding is that police officers do too, for the same reason, kind of that it's almost like it can leave.

You feel having that really isolated feeling like there's an experience of reality that I have that is so far from anything that, that anybody else can even imagine. And so it just leaves you really kind of isolated. And then when you have that kinda knee jerk reaction going off to, to things and, you know, intensified fear and that, you know, can obviously come out.

In a lot of different ways, anger, anxiety, or things that complicates relationships and certainly think it was complicated. Marriage. Yeah. Fascinating. Wow. Now on the opposite side, so, you know, we've heard kind of how, um, trauma can affect people negatively. Is it possible to, to handle trauma properly? I don't know if properly is the right word, cuz a lot of times, you know, it's not something that we control.

But, um, but is there a way to handle trauma? Well, one of the, the main things is part of what makes a trauma, a trauma is how it gets taken care of. And, uh, I'll give you an example that a supervisor gave me years ago when I was, when I was just an intern. And he said, he, he said that to me, he said that very thing, you know, part of what makes a trauma, a trauma is how it gets taken care of.

And I said, you know, what do you mean by that? And he said, well, he had grown up in Pittsburgh. And so one particular, he pick particular day, he was, he was just a little boy. And he was out with a bunch of friends and they were playing a game of pickup football in a empty corner lot. And he got tackled onto a piece of a jagged pipe.

That seems like it was probably about a sticking up outta the ground, maybe for about a foot, you know? And it was jagged and broken off. Yeah. And he was tackled onto it and it kind of cut his calf and it was just, he was really bleeding and, and he went home and. His mom was kind of freaking out. like, she couldn't couldn't handle the, the blood and kind of everything.

Right. So she's kind of losing it. And so, but his grandfather lived a couple of doors down and so she took him over to his grandfather and his grandfather was just like really calm and really patient and really loving and just got him like all cleaned up and bandaged up and, and took him for ice cream.

And so he says, instead of remembering that event as a traumatic event, he remembers it as a time where he felt like he really got taken care of. And I thought that was like, that was so interesting. You know, it's something that that's kind of become, uh, a really big part of my practice and how I've started seeing trauma.

It's something that something you and I haven't talked about, but it's in, it's been in the last couple of years, I had started noticing this pattern in my practice that it didn't matter the age of the person, the, you know, if they're male or female, you know, if they were super smart or if they were just kind of more simple, like anywhere, you know, any factor you can change up.

Right. And I started noticing that consistent thing was that if somebody brought up something to me, that was just this really, really beautiful experience, which you can imagine doesn't happen a lot when people come to talk about trauma. Right? Sure. But if they were bringing something like that up, it always had to do with a profound sense of connection to either themself or another person or God.

always. And so once I started noticing this, Jo was kind of like, I was kind of geeking out on this. Right. Like I was like, oh, this is fascinating. Like connection is like the antithesis of trauma. Right. It's like the exact opposite. So it's, it's the antidote and which kind of makes sense. Right. It's what we're made for.

Right. Sure. And wow. So then I was kind of like, that was fascinating. It was super cool. Then I started thinking, you know, after a couple of weeks of having this like nugget of revelation and I started thinking. Well, gee what's what's connection comprised of like, that's just kind of this fluffy term, like what's, what's it made of.

And so then started noticing this pattern that it always had to do with our boundaries being respected and which gives us that kind of like fundamental sense of safety. Right. I think, and safety and respect. Right? So there's a place where, where I stop and you start, and I don't, I, I have to have respect for that space, you know, I don't get to just come trudging into, to your space physically, emotionally and spiritually because we're body mind.

Absolutely. Um, so that was one thing boundaries. Right? And then the second thing was value. So it always had to do with the person being treated like they had inherent value. Like they didn't have to earn their value. They just had, they had dignity because they were a human being. That's it and, and didn't have to earn it.

It wasn't based on looks or performance or status or money or, or anything like that. Right. And then the third thing was having that sense of feeling known. So, which I kind of come to, um, to kind of like define as like being seen and heard as an individual. Who's very good. Like very good kind of going back to like Genesis and the Bible.

Right. And then the fourth thing was openness. Cause we kinda, we have to be, have some degree of openness in order to experience those things, another person, right. Even tiny bits of openness. But then the thing I started noticing was that the openness is really a byproduct. Of those four things or those three things, right.

If somebody respects my boundaries and treats me as though I already have value, it's not like I have to earn my value from them and takes the time to really like, see and hear me, then we kind of naturally open, right. Cause we're like we're made for connection. And those three, three things like send us like this really big, you know, message of you're safe in every way, you know?

And so I think those things, like if there's a way to say survive trauma, well, like I would say, you know, kind of like recover from it naturally. Like if you know, something just happened to someone, it it's kind of, you know, showing up with. Those three things and helping that person not feel isolated and not feel like they have to earn their value, or if they have to protect themselves or feel isolated and that kind of thing.

Wow, this is so fascinating. So many different levels to, to everyone listening, who maybe you don't come from a broken home, but you love, or you lead someone who does, this is a great takeaway for you too. And it reminds me of just the fact Margaret that when someone goes through something traumatic, like the worst thing that we can do is just try to get 'em to cheer up.

I know a lot of people, well, intentioned people say, well, look on the bright side or a typical one. When it comes to us going through your parents' divorce, it's like, well, we now, you know, you have twice as many presents, twice as many birthdays Christmases, you get two houses, like trying to get people to see the bright side.

But, um, this shows me that , you know, that model that you just laid out, that the need for connection being the antidote to trauma, that that really proves that that is so unhelpful. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. And of course, like you're saying, you know, of course it's, it's from the best of intentions. Right. And, and I think it's because we, especially, we as helpers, right.

We have a little bit double dose of wanting to help people feel better. But instead of focusing on controlling the other person's emotions, which honestly is a boundary violation. Right. so instead of that, focusing on connection, I think that's like when we, when we go there, we stay on definitely on safe ground.

I I'll tell you a simple story of if we can tolerate another story. No, please. Okay. So a few years ago, One of my nephews. He was three years old and I'm from coastal Georgia. So I was, I was down in Georgia and was visiting family. I was staying with my brother and we had gone over to some relatives of his wife.

So my sister-in-law's grand great-grandmother. And so the little boys, my nephews were three and a year and a half, and they were, they were playing with this ball. They were throwing it back and forth and it went over this little kind of patio fence thing. And so Bryce came running inside and running across the room and ran out.

She was, she lived in an apartment, ran out and the apartment and down the car corridor to go get his ball back and. So he just hear, you know, these footsteps, like, and like little body, like floating on. And then he like goes along in front of the fence and like passed her apartment to now he was in front of the apartment next to her.

And all of a sudden you hear these little dogs, like, and so then all of a sudden he's crying and he's just like tearing back into the apartment, you know, mm-hmm and I thought, oh, like, he, he wasn't expecting to be met with these dogs. And even though they were little, he was little too. Right? Sure. It was pretty overwhelming.

So I met him at the door and picked him up as soon as, you know, he comes to the door and. He was crying and everything. And what naturally came to my mind to say was that must have been really scary because I was thinking about it from, from his perspective, you know? So I was like, that must have been really scary.

You weren't expecting to hear dogs, were you? And he's like, no, you know, and he's, he's crying and he's wiping his eyes and stuff. And so I'm gonna hold you up, appear really high so that we can go back out and get your ball, but you'll be up high. So you'll be. From the dogs. Right. And so we go outside and you know, I'm making up this little story to him and I'm saying, oh, this cause the dogs are not barking.

And it's like, oh, these dogs are saying, Hey, little boy, your balls over here, you know, I'm just being silly. And then, and he's like, oh, that's so nice. You know? So now he's VI his, and, and he, he feels safe though. I'm like, you know, oh, look, they're behind their little fence. And so now he wiggles down. Right?

Cause he, he wants to go get his ball. He knows he's safe. And because the dogs are, are away from him, I can't catch him. So he goes and he gets his ball and, and you know, there's, everybody's, everybody's happy, that kind of thing. But somebody had said to me later when I had, I had written about that story and the book that I had put out back in 2017, somebody said that to like, that was so interesting that you said to him, that must have been really scary.

He said, I, I think the natural thing to say would be, you don't have to be scared. Mm. And I was like really struck by that, cuz I thought, I think back in my experiences I guess that is something that people would've tended to say to me, but, but it just made so much sense to say that must have been really scary because clearly he was scared.

And if I say you don't have to be scared. I think what we tend to think in our minds is like, well, you don't understand, you know, because clearly if I am scared, there's something I'm scared about, you know, that kinda thing. So I didn't want him to feel isolated or him to feel understood. I, I wanted to meet him where he was instead of trying to get him to meet me where I was.

Once he felt like I met him where he was with that must have been really scary. Then I could bring him into, you know, the things, these things that were going was gonna do so that he didn't have to be scared and we could go and face it together. Does that make sense? Yeah. No, I love it. Empathy. That's all about empathy, basical, and then yeah, for sure.

Connected with him. Which helped him overcome his fear, which helped him kind of deal with that dangerous situation that he was facing. That's wow. That, no, that, that's incredible. It's a great illustration of kind of how that works when you truly help someone to process and go through something difficult.

Yeah. And just kinda like take, like looking at taking their perspective first, instead of getting them to take your perspective. Cause I think that we can kind of, we can tend to do that, you know, uh, and again, with the festive intentions, you know totally. Yeah. And I wanna transition into talking about, um, going through your parents' divorce, like when someone goes through their parents' divorce, their parents' separation, or maybe just a really broken marriage, uh, something you said before, how, you know, to, to properly survive trauma, um, means it, we, we need to get taken care of basically.

And so mm-hmm um, it, it had struck me because what we've seen reading the research and hearing all the stories that we've been hearing for years is that so often these young people who come from broken families or not so young. That they aren't taken care of. And again, not not saying parents are like want wanting to damage their kids.

I've never met a parent who wanted to hurt their kids by getting divorced. Never. But I think so often the kids get neglected and that is damaging. They don't have that connection. Like you mentioned, they don't feel that they're taken care of. And so I think maybe that's part of the reason it's so damaging.

So I wanna give you a chance to talk about that. Why, why would you say, uh, from your point of view, your expertise is your parents' divorce or separation, so, so traumatic for so many people. Yeah, I think there's, I think there's so many, so many reasons to that. Like, first of all, I think, cause we're, we're part of mom and part of dad to see that rift between the two of them really feels like a rift within us.

Right? Like even on a, on a very like natural physiological kind of level, you can feel like we're being torn apart. So I think it, it makes a lot of sense just on a really like. Basic like fundamental level. And you know, a lot of times there's even like, I look more like this person. So if you're rejecting this person, what does that say about me?

Maybe I have more features of that person. And if that, you know, he's rejecting this about her, then what does that say about me? And 11 times, I don't think we even necessarily articulate this stuff, but I think it's, you know, I think it ends up playing into the what's, you know, can be going on underneath.

Also, I think one of the things that makes situations so particularly damaging or impacting I would, would be a good word is when. The more helpless we feel in a situation and who, when it comes to something like separation and divorce, broken marriage, the typical, you know, the typical responses in trauma is we say it's fight flight or freeze.

And, and there is no way to fight it, right? Like because we're not even part of the, the breakup really, you know, we're not, we're not the mother, we're not the father. Right. We're not the husband, we're not the wife. So, so they're breaking up from each other and there's no way we can, we can fight that. No way we can, nothing we can do to stop it.

There's no way we can flee it either. Right. There's we can try to avoid and escape kind of from the idea of it or thinking about it, but it doesn't doesn't change the facts of the situation. So I think what most people end up doing is freezing, which is kind of that deer in the headlights kind of mode, where we feel that particular sense of.

Helplessness. There's nothing I can do to fight it. Nothing I can do to flee it. I can't change the situation. And so we, we just kind of brace for impact, you know, kind of, so to speak, if you're thinking about it, like what we would do in a car accident, when there's no way we can swerve to avoid the, you know, the car coming at us or something, things that are handled in that way, they tend to be particularly like leaving a lot of like depressive kind of symptoms.

When, when things are the free state is, as the trauma continues to be experienced, like it's still going on that free state particularly tends to be experienced down the road as depression. So I think, um, I think those are some of, some of the reasons also think particularly cause connection is like, you know, like I said before, what we're wired for and that's kind of the most fundamental connection that we're supposed to have, the way the.

Human family has been designed is there's for a person to come into the world and it needs to be a, a mother and a father and to, to bring this little life in. And so when there's a fraction in that connection, it goes against everything that we're made for, you know? Yeah. So seeing that, like that connection, that, that relationship that's supposed to really teaches about connection when that one, that, that one is like so crucial to the destructiveness.

Absolutely. Um, I also think there's something like, I think there's something to, it's not just like the person, you know, the, the person who's the child in the, um, in the family. It's not just like, they're not get getting taken care of. Sadly. I mean, that would be bad enough, of course, but sadly, a lot of times what I see is they're actually relied upon to take care of the parents or one of the parent and that.

That's kind of backwards, right? That's totally backwards from, from how it's supposed to be. And it's an, it's an awful lot of responsibility and none of the power, there's a story of, um, a boy where he was, uh, just, I think, 13, 14 years old. And, uh, his mom left, his mom just stopped and left, but his dad was just so debilitated by the mom leaving.

And so that child dropped outta school. He started doing everything the mom would do like cooking and cleaning and taking care of everything around the house. Wow. And so he literally, as, as a boy, he stepped into this parent role, not just taking care of the house mm-hmm but also being emotionally there for his dad.

Mm-hmm and we see this all, all the time, Margaret, like in the young people, we were it's yeah. They're filling roles. They were never meant to fill sometime often out of necessity. And, uh, man, it's, it's so sad and it is damaging. It may not. Look like that, you know, right away. But, uh, but down the road, it can be very damaging, especially in your relationship with that parent, which of course we all want good relationships with our parents and it can be really harmful down the road we've learned.

Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. I, I totally agree with that. And it has, I can tell you from, you know, working with adults cuz I, you know, my, my, the people, I treat's a mix of, of kids and adult and. and in working with adults, it has long lasting ramifications. You know, it's not something that once they're outta that situation, it's over.

And I think if you put it in terms of connection, a lot of times, the, the message they've taken away is, is that that's how they have to earn their value. And because they don't feel valued until they step into that role, because they, that they can see like really quickly, like, oh, if I do this, I help dad feel better or I help mom feel better.

And so then they, you know, maybe perhaps like, because of their own pain and depression, whichever parent or parents, aren't really engaging with them, you know, and their. Uh, kind of more kind of withdrawn or, or whatever the case might be. Right. And so mm-hmm but the kid takes away the message. Oh, if I do this, they like me.

If I do this, they appreciate me more if I do this. And so, so it's a real, yeah, it's a real detrimental message for a person to take on that. They have to earn their value, particularly by, by doing something that's like such a roll reversal. Right? No, that makes so much sense. And there's so much to say on that topic alone.

I, I just wanted to mention though that for sure, for, for any parents listening, who may be like freaking out right now, um, there, you, you play such a crucial role in helping your kids handle that the trauma handle that the messy situation, there is some research that we've seen that says basically if that child has a good relationship, a healthy relationship with one or both parents, they're much less likely to experience loneliness, to experience depression, to experience anxiety.

And so parents listening right now, uh, you play a huge role. We often hear how things go wrong. And, and there is a lot of that when people come from a broken family, no doubt. Um, but you can play a crucial role in helping in helping your children heal. So lot, lot more on that than, I guess we could talk about it in this conversation, but would you, um, add anything to kind of, why is divorce.

Separation so unique. Is there anything that makes it different than other types of trauma aside from the things you've already mentioned? No. I think just kind of looking back at, you know, again, to reiterate looking at the, at the family unit and that's like supposed to be our first school of, of connection really.

Right. And it really ends up teaching us how to even connect to ourself and how to connect to God and how to connect to others. And so it it's because it's like that, that primary place where we would get those lessons. Absolutely. And the research we've seen and mark, you've probably seen the same stuff, says that the, the biggest area of our lives that we are impacted by our parents' divorce is our own relationship, specifically our romantic relationships.

And we talk about that a lot in the show. Yeah. But it makes so much sense based on everything you just. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Mark. You didn't just learn this stuff in a book. That's one of the things that I think is so impressive about you, you've been through a lot in your own life years ago, you were on the brink of suicide.

If you're willing to talk about that a little bit, what happened? What's your story? I grew up in a very dysfunctional family. My parents did not divorce or separate, but it was at least physically right. So I, I do think there are people who fall into that category. Right? Absolutely. So there's this, like, there's this incredible disconnect and rift and, and that kind of thing.

So you you're experienced disconnection on day in and day out, but, but without the official divorce or separation. So there was a lot of, lot of dysfunction on pretty much every level. And so ended up running away from home when I was 17, um, came to thankfully came to Franciscan university, right outta high school.

And it was, it was a great place. To come cause it was probably one of the safest places I could have come. And it was, yeah, it, I didn't know I was gonna come here until two weeks before school started when I was a freshman, I just kinda, I needed to figure something out and go somewhere. So I applied and was accepted financial aid, worked through, you know, worked out and I was on a plane heading to Ohio.

And, um, nobody warned me about how cold it is in Ohio. Cause it was not cold in south Georgia but ended up but ended up up here and like really thankfully. So, but that wasn't really the end of the story, you know, that was just kind of the beginning. There was a lot of just kind of trying to sort out what in the, what in the world and, and all, you know, what in the word I had been through and still all the while living out of my own trauma, which just led to more drama and more trauma.

And so it wasn't until I was finally at, uh, by the time I was 33 years old, I had been in counseling for 16 years. I had been. Misdiagnosed bipolar. I had been hospitalized twice on like every medication under the sun and everybody was just kind of stumped what to do with me. And I was really, really under functioning and I knew I couldn't hold down a job because I was so morbidly depressed.

And so I thought, okay, well, school was always easy for me. So I'll, I'll get a master's degree cause that'll help me buy some time to try to figure me out. Cause clearly I was, I was stumping the professionals and um, of the master's programs that Franciscan had at the time master's in counseling program is what interested me for the obvious reason of trying to figure myself out.

Right. Mm-hmm and so, but it, I, so I went into the master's in counseling program, never with the intention of becoming a therapist. Never. That was not my intention. I was just trying to buy time and halfway through the master's in counseling program. I. Really coming apart at the seams and the therapist, I was seeing recommended that I go through the method of treatment that then kind of changed over all of these years into the way I practiced it, but went through it and it was night and day different.

It was intensive outpatient trauma treatment. And I went from, you know, the past, the 18 months prior to going through it, I had been. Imminently suicidal, just like every day and night, all day and night, my thoughts would just kind of always go to, to suicide and, and as sad and as disturbing as it sounds, that was actually kind of, my, my most hopeful thought was suicide because it kind of felt like my parachute, you know, because I had no hope for, for ever feeling anything else, because I had felt that way for, from really from the time I was 17, just so, so, so depressed and so intensely anxious and thought in good conscience.

I can't become a therapist because I don't believe it worked and went down. I went through this method of treatment, the clinic's closed now, but it went through it back then. And it was just day of night difference after intensive treatment. And so I, that kinda, that sold me on it. And it wasn't, it wasn't really the, the end, you know, it was like this silver bullet kind of thing, but it definitely, I, I didn't feel depressed anymore.

Didn't feel suicidal anymore. Didn't feel anxious anymore. And I definitely had the. The tools and the insight I needed to really begin to connect to me and then to connect to, to others, more healthily and to grow in my relationship with, with the Lord was connecting to him. So it was kind of this, it was just like an enormous portion of, of my own journey.

Also, honestly, there was a lot physiological that, that I ended up getting help with from chiropractor nutritionist in the area here, who we both know Dr. Mara, and the reason being that trauma actually takes a toll on your body and stress happens somewhere. Right? And it happens in these, these things we live in, right.

That's where the anxiety takes place when the depression takes place. And it really takes its own its wear and tear honest physiologically. So that was a big component of my healing as well. Wow. Besides my, besides my faith journey. Cause so I kind of had this like emotional, physical, and very and spiritual like aspects of the healing kind of, and I've always.

Really kind of emphasize that with clients, like you really have to go at it body, mind and spirit because that's how we're made. Yeah. You can't compartmentalize. We have to treat the person. No, you really can't. Yeah, for sure. I love that. Wow. What incredible story. And now you're helping other people who, you know, are going through trauma.

Who've been through trauma who are trying to, to process it, deal with it. Uh, tell, tell us a little about the, the therapy that you practiced, the model that you practiced and why, why is it so effective? So I, so, like I said, the model as I went through it, if. Changed. I added it up at one point, probably about 14 or 15 things over the years, trying to make it more, more efficient and more effective.

And mm-hmm and kind of more holistic. And so, so the, as I practice it, I refer to it as NRI, which stands for neuro reformatting and integration. So the neuro part is actually moving, moving. We try where files are stored in the brain. Or if you look at it kinda like reformatting those files, this is the way that they've become encoded instead of being experienced, like they're still going on.

Once we've processed them, they're actually able to be experienced like they're in the past. Which is really that's, that's the most effective part of the whole thing, because then it actually enables the person to be able to feel like a whole person instead of feeling like, okay, well there's part of me, that's carrying these terrible things I went through when I was four.

And these things that I went through when I was 12 and these things that I would turn on 15, you know, whatever ages like these particularly traumatic events happened. Because they continue to be experienced. Like they're still going on. They can really kind of leave us feeling diced up into all these different kind of ages that we were when the things happened.

But once the events are experienced, like they're in the past, then there's able to be like integration within the person. So we feel whole, instead of that sense of, of kind of this brokenness, you know, and, and I think, I think a lot of people who've been, been through trauma can kind of relate to that, you know, kind of feeling.

Like they're a little kid in an adult body and being expected to engage with an adult world, you know, and they're expected to act like adults and they, they don't even feel like an adult, even though they're in their mid thirties, you know, or, or mid twenties, you know, or whatever the case might be.

That's why it's so effective is because, and that's also why it can be done in intensive format. So in a week you can get the, all of these things addressed. You don't need a week or two weeks in between hourly sessions to kind of mull over what was talked about in the last session. And that kind of thing.

I, I always say, if it's easier for you to look at the kind of treatment I do as physical therapy for the brings, then that really kind of makes sense. Right? So, because I'll give you like a good example of like how physiological this is, this is kinda, this is kinda crazy. But during those two weeks that I went through, um, through trauma treatment, my hair turned to tiny little curls.

And stayed like that for the next year and a half. And wow. Um, which is one of the things that kept, you know, the, the body, mind spirit kind of approach, like literally in my face, right? Like anytime I look in the mirror, it was literally in my face and I was talking to my doctor about it and saying like, isn't that crazy?

And he said, well, it makes sense because when you're moving, where things are stored in the brain, it shifts up hormones. And a lot of times, you know, hormones have to do with will effect if a person's hair is curly or straight, like, example, for example, like when women get pregnant or have babies, you know, a lot of times their hair, if they have curl, they'll lose curl, or, um, if they don't have curly hair, they might get curly hair.

So yes, it's kinda it's that biological, you know, kind of shift that makes it so effective. It's, it's not, it's not just trying to get the person to think about it in a think about whatever the traumatic events were in a different light for like a short period of time that then they wouldn't be able to sustain.

You're actually kind of like. Changing how it's stored in the brain. Wow, incredible. It's like you're doing, you're reorganizing their brain, so to speak. Yeah. Which causes the, you know, the symptoms they talked about before it causes those things to go away, you know? So the limbic system's able to calm down.

So the neocortex is able to do, um, in the prefrontal cortex, more of what it's meant to do. So this kind of stuff we call executive functioning. So prioritizing and being organized and, and problem solving. You know, if I do this, wait, that's gonna happen. So I wanna make this choice instead, you know, making better choices, the person's able to from a calmer place and approach things.

More peace and clarity. Wow. Incredible. And Margaret, I wanted to ask you, so when someone comes to work with you, they're, you know, coming to your, um, clinic for a week, uh, what does that week look like? What's the agenda? Like what sort of, uh, exercises do they go through? Like, could you demystify that a little bit?

Like what process do you follow in leading people through this therapy? Sure. So the first part, even before they come to know if they're appropriate for this method of treatment is kind of, uh, a set amount of form and call the history and goals, questionnaire. And so I, I get their history, so I know if they're appropriate for treatment and, and to know if the goals.

That they're looking to attain. If, you know, if you, if they make sense given this treatment, if this is a good fit for that. And then if it is when they come for that week, they stay in the local area. It's outpatient treatment. So they just come for sessions from in the morning and in the, and or in the afternoon, depending on what their schedule is, what they're set up with, what kind of their need is.

And then on Monday kind of do an intake that gives us a lot bigger picture of, um, kind of that context of their life, because we've gotten the real specific information on that history and goals, questionnaire. And then I, I like to educate people on. Trauma, a lot of the, kind of the stuff we're talking about and the effects on the brain and the reason being that the more they can understand how the things they've been through are affecting them.

I think a lot of times it takes away some of the shame and the self blame and that kind of stuff. And it, it actually, a lot of times people will go, oh, well, if this is what you're saying, that maybe I should tell you this. And they'll start sharing with me. Things that, that very much would kind of fall into the trauma category also, and really important for me to know.

So I always look at. Like whoever the person is I'm working with. We are the treatment team for the week because I might be the expert on trauma, but they're the expert on them. So kinda look at getting them caught up to my information and me caught up to them so that we can kind of go at things together.

And then throughout the week, we kind of take things through the neurore reformatting and integration process of this reformatting, these, you know, these memory files, which is actually done through a directed use of art therapy. So there's a lot of art therapy and if there're really little kids play therapy that goes into it, um, a lot of different parts and pieces of that.

And then kind of everything through one of the main things, that's different about how. Practicing these days, that's so different than anything I've done before is it's all through the perspective of connection, because I really want people to finish, not just, um, you know, finish the week up, not just available for connection, but understanding what healthy connection looks like, and then what the steps are they need to take in order to grow and deeper connection to themselves, you know, or others or the Lord, if they're Christian.

So that kind of has a lot to do with, with wrap up and kind of helping them be in a lot better spot for, for being vaed going forward. Because for myself, like that was not how treatment was when I went through it. So sadly I went through treatment, it was enormously helpful, but then I got out just like, okay, ready for connection, but had no idea that that was kind of part of all, what all of this stuff getting cleared up outta my life was kind of positioning me for and didn't have any idea how to navigate healthy connection.

Cause I hadn't experienced that. Wow. So that's become kind of really. What I'd say is like profoundly different about how I practice these days. Incredible. No, it, it sounds super effective. And I know you've helped a lot of people. What are some of the transformations that you've seen? Gosh, there's, there's so many stories I wanna tell you about this, which actually this is not a commercial break, but there a lot of the book that I wrote serious, this is true.

A lot of the book that I wrote, like kind of goes through some of those because there they were such learning experiences. For me. Right. I was like shocked. As I continued to see, like these dramatic changes, whether they be like physically or emotionally or, or behaviorally, a lot of times, you know, with kids, you'll see like major behavior changes.

So one of the physical ones that comes to mind readily was working with somebody. I'll tell you this one. So, so this was a young adult I was working with and this person had all of these physiological symptoms. And so with colorblind, they could feel, you know, sense of TA or of touch, but they said everything, they felt felt like they had gloves on.

And, um, they had a really dull sense of smell. And so a really dull sense of taste. They were getting migraines like all the time. They had been hospitalized for a migraine once for two months, just, just crazy. I can't even imagine my goodness. They had had a really hard time learning to read and also with a really hard time learning math when they were little.

And so they came for treatment. Oh, this person also, their, their coloring looked really bad, like really pale sickly and very, it was a, it was a, a guy and he was very much like underweight kind of sickly looking and all of those symptoms through the week of treatment, all of those symptoms went away. All of those color, like everything I just named all the symptoms went away, started being able to sound words out, started being able to, to you went home, asked his mom what's the deal with fractions.

And she sat down. She said, I sat down and like explained fractions to him, like for the hundredth time. And he's been sitting around doing math for fun for the last three days. Wow. That's the biggest transformation. Sorry, doing master reports. I think that's diagnosable, but that's OK. um, yeah. And then like in the six months after treatment, he grew three inches and put on 40 pounds that he very much needed to put on cuz he was just like so sickly and, and stopped getting migraines.

So, um, yeah, so, so that's just like, it, it, so cause of that, like be because of like having all those symptoms before growing up, he just saw himself kind of like as a person who couldn't do things like, right. Like, like not capable. And so he, he hadn't tried a lot of things, even though he was 20 or 21 years old, he didn't have his driver's license.

Didn't have a job, was living with his parents. Hadn't gone to college. He he'd actually never stayed overnight at their house by himself before. I mean, there was just a lot of things cause he felt really incapable, you know, and all of those things changed. Right. So he ended up kind of. Con like constantly like trying more things and doing more things and then having success, doing those things.

And then it really shifted how he saw himself. And so, so as you, you kind of see that a lot of times, whatever the person's, you know, whatever the symptoms are that you see change up, you see. That it, it kind of becomes evident that a lot of times before treatment people see their symptoms as who they are instead of how they're doing.

And after treatment, like once the symptoms are gone and then the person's able to get, oh, that's just how I was doing. That's not who I, who I am or who I was. Right. And so then they engage with the world and others, like in a lot different way, which is a lot greater degree of freedom. Incredible. Wow, what a sword and I'm sure you have so many more in the book guys.

Uh . There's there's so many more I can hear you I'm sure. No, I'm sure. So the book that Margaret mentioned, everyone, uh, it's more than words, the freedom to thrive after trauma, you could pick that up on Amazon. I'll tell you, uh, at the end, how you can, can buy that if, if you'd like, but wow. One incredible story.

And uh, maybe one day we'll have you back just to tell stories of transformation. That's incredible. if I can tell you, I'll tell you those two. There's a, um, please, there's a manuscript. I just finished. I did it over, wrote it over when the pandemic lockdown happened. Cuz I thought I would lose my mind if I was locked in here by myself.

and so I, I started writing a book. Connection. And so it's all about connection to God's self and others, and just like putting the finishing passes on that. So that should be coming out in the next month or so hopefully incredible. Uh, we'll make sure to link that in the show notes when that does come out.

So man, thank you for, for mentioning that. I, I had no idea that you were working on another book. Gotta do something to stay outta trouble. Joey, there you go. mark. I just wanna in closing up the show, I just wanna ask you, uh, people, you know, are hearing all this and they're thinking, man, this sounds so good.

Uh, you know, I need to heal. I want to heal, uh, but maybe I can't start the week long therapy right now. What's one thing that they can do right now from home in order to, to start that healing process. You know, this might sound like super simplistic, but I, I think it's like profoundly important and I think everybody could stand to grow in this and, and that would just be being compassionate to ourselves to themself.

Cause I think that's, that's like so key, like the more compassionate we are to ourself, whether that means respecting our own boundaries and not attributing our value to, to our performance or our looks or, you know, whatever, whatever kind of external factor, not beating ourselves up. Um, not putting ourselves down, that kind of thing.

I think that's really kind of that begins that shift. I think because we, we talk to ourselves far more than we spend time talking to anybody else in that constant kind of commentary we can have running in our head. So making that conscious effort to begin practicing compassion to ourselves really kind of go, can go a long way to the integration of the person when, whenever they are able to end up getting help from somebody on the outside.

But it really, um, stands in stark contrast. A lot of times to the messages that we've been sent in traumatic experiences. So I say self-compassion is, is, is huge. Absolutely. No, I I've seen that be, um, really fruit in my own life and then the lives of the people and swords audience that, that we've worked with, cuz yeah man, if we were to like write out or listen to the way that we talk to ourselves, we, a lot of us would just be complete jerk.

Because we're just so unkind and so mean to ourselves. So I think, uh, it it's great advice. And one of the things that a lot of people, uh, benefit from hearing is that it's okay not to be okay. It's okay to absolutely to go through something difficult. And, uh, just like you would treat another person who is going through a really hard time.

You need to treat yourself the same. And so not. I love that advice, Margaret, and I just wanna give you a chance to what encouragement, what advice would you give to someone who, who really is in a tough spot? Who, who feels broken, who feels hopeless, who maybe feels stuck, especially because of the messiness in their family.

Like you mentioned, maybe their parents are still together, but things are really dysfunctional or maybe their parents just separate, or their parents have been divorced for a. What advice and encouragement would you, would you give to them? Yeah, well, I like first and foremost, I would say there's always hope.

There's always hope. And, and I, and I would say, you know, to look at your symptoms as how you're doing, not who you are, because they're really not. And, and you know, it, it's all passing. Like it's all passing it's and yet when we're in the middle of it, it can feel like we're gonna feel like that way forever, but that's really not the truth.

So I say there's, there's always hope and you're not the sum total of your symptoms. Beautiful. And how can people learn more about you? How could they follow you? Get your books, learn about your practice. Yeah. Yes, they can. Um, they can follow me on my, or come to my website@culture-of-connection.com and the book is available on Amazon.

So they can either put in my name Margaret Vasquez, or they can put in more than words, the freedom to thrive after trauma. If they come to my website, culture of connection.com, they can sign up to receive emails and say, they'll get updated when the next book is out. And that kind of thing. And blog posts and stuff.

Excellent. And guys will make sure to throw that all in the show notes to make it easy for you, Margaret, thank you so much for your time for expertise and for just your heart, uh, you know, your willingness to, to help people and the heart you have for, for them. So really appreciate you taking time to, to do this with us.

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Joey. And just wanna say, I like God bless you and your ministry just really appreciate what you do.

There's so much to say after an episode like that, so many takeaways, but just a few one, I would say don't minimize the negative experiences that you've been through in life. Like Margaret said, a lot of times people say couldn't have been worse and we kinda just write things off as normal or thinking, well, it could have been worse.

A lot of other people go through a lot of worse things in their lives and sure. Maybe it could have been worse, but the fact that it shouldn't have been that. The fact that it should have been different is enough to be hurt by it. And so we really can't minimize those negative experiences in our lives.

We really owe it to ourselves to, to reflect on them, to think about how we've been damaged and then to make an effort to heal. Another excellent point that Margaret made was it really matters how helpless we felt during those negative experiences to put it. In other words, the more helpless you feel during a painful experience, the more impactful it is on you.

And so that's a great question to really reflect on is how helpless did I feel during these bad things that have happened in my life. And then you can kind of draw a line between those bad things that happened, how helpless you felt and the things maybe you struggle with today and how it has affected you over the years.

So something really good to reflect on today, or at some point, this. In for anyone listening, who's maybe trying to help a friend who's going through something tough right now, or just someone you care about someone you lead. Perhaps it's so important that we meet people where they are. I love the story that Margaret told about her little nephew with the dogs and how she kind of handled that whole thing.

And what she said was, yeah, we have to meet people where they are. We need to be empathetic. We need to put ourselves in their shoes, not telling them how to feel or trying to cheer them up, but really going to them in the low place that they're at right now. And so you can say things. That must have been really difficult, or that must be scary, like Margaret said.

And I've found that when you take that approach with helping people, it usually goes so much further. And on the receiving end, I've been on the receiving end as well. It's so much better when someone comes to you with that attitude than if they come to you with the attitude of like, I'm gonna try to fix you, or you just need to get over there.

So you just need to feel better. There's so much more that we can say, but if you wanna pick up Margaret's book more than words is the title. You can buy that on Amazon or wherever you buy books. Uh, we'll throw a link in the show notes. If you wanna buy the book that way you can just click on that and you can buy the book.

We'll also add her new book that's coming out in the show notes once that is released, and those show notes can be found@restoredministry.com slash 37. Again, that's restored ministry.com. Ministries is to singular slash 37 3 7. Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful. Please subscribe and share this episode with someone that you know, who could use it.

Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#036: Healthy Relationships Are Impossible Without Boundaries

Most people from broken homes struggle with boundaries. Usually, we were never taught how to set and enforce proper boundaries within our families. We’ve seen this again and again.

Why is that damaging? Because you can’t have healthy relationships without proper boundaries. Period.

In this episode, we cover:

• What are boundaries?

• The four types of boundary problems

• Six of the ten laws of boundaries

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• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Boundaries Podcast

• Boundaries Course

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When we ask our audience, like, what are you struggling with? One of the common themes is problems with boundaries. And what we've learned is basically this almost always, I'm tempted to say always, but almost always broken homes are dysfunctional and where there is dysfunction boundaries are always violated.

Always. Now, if you come from a broken home, you may be thinking, do I struggle with boundaries? And it's a, a good question to ask, but it's actually more difficult to answer than you might think. And the basic reason is that boundaries are, are kind of difficult to understand and explain. They're difficult to put into words because they're this a.

Often intangible thing that, that we try to talk about and it could be difficult to do that. Now, I think most of us would say that we do struggle with boundaries, at least at some level, but some of us may not see the connection between the struggles that we're dealing with every day and boundaries.

Another way to put it is we may not understand that some of our struggles, some of our problems actually have the root in not having proper boundaries and to shed some light on that. Here are some examples of some boundary problems. I'm just gonna list some off and you can just think, you know, is that something that I deal with?

The first thing is you have a hard time saying no, or maybe you have a hard time hearing. Now you say yes to almost everything that people ask of you, your life feels kind of outta control and chaotic. You often avoid conflict. You frequently find yourself doing things that other people want you to do, but you don't really wanna do you heavily rely on another person for your emotional stability?

If things go well in that relationship, life is good, but if not, life is unbearable. You often emotionally react to the needs of others instead of slowing down and thoughtfully responding to them. You feel like a parent to anyone who's not your child to people who you really shouldn't feel like a parent to like maybe your parents or your siblings or your friends, or your boyfriend, your girlfriend, or even your spouse.

You find yourself being nice to people, not so much out of love, but really out of fear, you struggle to take ownership or responsibility of your life and the problems within. And you freely try to rescue people from the consequences of their bad decisions and the list goes on and on, but that just gives you an example of some boundary problems.

And if some of those described to you, don't out, you're not alone. It's actually a really popular struggle, especially for people who come from broken homes. People like us. There's a really simple reason for that. Most of us were never taught how to. And enforce proper boundaries within our families, the place where we're really supposed to learn them.

And so, as a result, we often struggle with setting and enforcing boundaries in our own families, especially with our parents. But why are we talking about this topic? Why is this important? Basically you cannot have healthy relationships without boundaries. It's impossible. So if we want healthy relationships with our parents, healthy relationships, with our friends, healthy relationship with our boyfriend, our girlfriend, with your spouse, we need to get boundaries.

Right? It's that important? And so in this episode, we're gonna talk about boundaries. We're gonna keep it simple, but we're gonna go through what are boundaries. Exactly. Give some examples of them. We'll talk about some problems that come up with boundaries and we'll touch on the laws of boundaries as. In the future, we're gonna be putting on more content on boundaries.

They're just that important. We can't cover it all in one episode, but you may be surprised by how helpful this content is today. So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce or separation. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 36 and today, again, we're talking about boundaries and in a lot of ways, this episode's gonna be a book review of the book boundaries.

When to say yes, how to say no to take control of your life. It was written by Dr. Henry cloud and Dr. John Townsend. They're both psychologists, they're authors, and this is really gonna give you a taste, this episode of what that book is about. So we're just gonna give you a quick summary and overview of some parts of it.

Basically do a book review. You frequently see on YouTube. And really if this resonates with you, if this topic resonates with you, then you really should pick up the book. And I'll tell you how to do that at the very end, but this will give you a good taste of the, some of the content within the book. So what are boundaries?

Well in the book, they say that boundaries are anything that helps to differentiate you from someone else or shows you where you begin and end. They go on to say, boundaries, define us. They define what is. And what is not me, a boundary shows me where I end and someone else begins leading me to a sense of ownership that the simplest way that I could put it is that boundaries are healthy limits in various areas of our lives.

And to begin with the questions, what in my life am I responsible for? What am I not responsible for? What's under my ownership and protection. What is not. And once we stand the answers to those questions, then we can understand how we should act in certain situations, what you should do, what you shouldn't do.

And we'll get into some examples in a second, but boundaries also help us to communicate what we're willing to do and what we're unwilling to do. They also help us to communicate our likes and our dislikes, and perhaps most of all, they give us the ability to say, And they really give us freedom in the book.

They say this, they use the example of owning a house and having a yard. They say, knowing what I am to own and take responsibility for gives me freedom. If I know where my yard begins and ends, I'm free to do with it. What I like. But to, to make this easier to understand what are some examples of boundaries?

Again, a good starting point is asking the question, what am I responsible for? What do I have ownership of in my life? And I think you could break it down into two simple buckets. There's tangible things. And then there's intangible things. And so a tangible example, and there's many examples, but we can say if you own, or you rent a home or an apartment or a dorm, you have responsibility over.

Those things. And so typical boundaries for those sorts of things are locks on your doors, fences signs, walls lines in the ground, borders. Those are obvious things, right? They're physical, they're easy to see. And in the book they say that those things they give the same message. The owner of the property is legally responsible for what happens on his or her property.

And within that, you can understand that anything outside of the property, the owner is not responsible for another example, is your. It sounds kind of silly to say, but locking your car, the locks in your car are a boundary, right? They keep people out who shouldn't be in your car. Another type of boundary would be not allowing certain people to drive your car.

Who, who aren't trustworthy, who aren't able to take care of your car, the way that it needs to be taken care of. Of course, we have ownership of our bodies and there's naturally boundaries when it comes to our bodies. And there's a ton of examples, but one really obvious example is not allowing people to, to touch us or treat us in a way that's not appropriate in a way that's inappropriate.

And obviously the, the most grievous violation of boundaries when it comes to our bodies is abuse, right? Sexual or physical abuse. But even beyond that, we really have a responsibility to take care of our bodies by, you know, controlling what weed and how much of it, how often we exercise, how much we sleep and so on.

And really what you'll see is that boundaries can kind of be set in two extremes, right on one end. When it comes to sleep. For example, we can't allow ourselves to never sleep because we would just go crazy and get sick and die. On the other hand, if we're sleeping all the time, that's not good either.

And so we need boundaries on either end to tell us, okay, what's enough sleep that we need to take care of our bodies. We also have ownership over our actions, like what, what we do. And so, you know, a silly and simple one is I won't punch someone in the. Unless I'm defending myself or defending someone else, or, you know, when someone says something bad about another person I'm gonna speak up for that person.

When it comes to intangible things, it's a little bit more difficult to put them into words, but one area that we have ownership of and responsibility for is our emotions. Now that one might be a little bit tricky because you really can't control fully how you. But you can control how you react to certain things and you can control what you expose yourself to.

Right? The, the stimuli that you expose yourself to stimuli being the things or the people whatever's around you, that makes you feel something. And so you may realize a boundary that you need with a certain person. Like I can't spend time with that person anymore. They just, you know, take the life out of me.

Or if there's an abusive relationship that you're in, like, I need to break this off. This is. Good. I can't be with this guy. I can't be with this girl. I can't be with this friend. Uh, maybe an abusive marriage, obviously. It's not as easy to just like walk away from that. Cuz you made a vow, a commitment, but really they talk about this in the book, a, a spouse who's being abused like verbally or emotionally, really needs some distance.

It may have been require a separation. It really until. The abusive spouse faces his or her problems and becomes trustworthy again. And in the book they say, you should not continue to set yourself up for hurt and disappointment. They say forgive, but guard your heart until you see sustained change. And so that's one thing we always talk about when it comes to.

Broken marriages. The goal is always to heal the marriage, to keep the spouses together, but the spouses need to put boundaries in place, especially the one who's being mistreated. It's not okay to just allow that behavior to continue. Boundaries are needed saying this is not okay. I won't tolerate it. And these are the consequences.

Another area we have ownership over of course is our time. Like we can control what we do with our time. And so some boundaries there, we might say, you know, I'm gonna limit. How much time I spend watching Netflix, I'm gonna limit how much time I spend consuming the news or going on social media, or maybe I'm gonna make time for my girlfriend.

I'm gonna make time for my boyfriend. I make time for my wife, my husband. And so we, we can put boundaries, you know, around our time as well. And, uh, one of the things I say in the book is that taking time off from a person or a project can be a way of regaining ownership over some out of control aspect of your life.

Where boundaries need to be set and related to that is another area of our life that we have ownership over. And that is our relationships. Of course, we can't control the people in them, but it truly is our most basic need. As people, we need connection. We need people, we need intimacy. We need relationships in our lives.

And so I think this is probably the area that we screw up boundaries. The most. And I think part of the reason for that is that well we're broken. Uh, but also we have a lot of fear when it comes to relationships. We have a fear, especially of being alone of being abandoned, especially if you know, you come from a broken family and so we may continue on and allow certain behavior in our relationships.

That really is not okay that we really should not tolerate, but we allow it to happen. Because again, we're afraid that. Don't if we stand up for ourselves, if we stand up against some, you know, wrong behavior that the person that we're with is doing, then we may think, oh shoot. Well, they're just gonna leave me.

They're gonna abandon me. And so it's better to put up with this unhealthy bad behavior than it is to be abandoned. And so you could see how there just can be so many problems when it comes to relationships and boundaries that we'll get into a little bit more, uh, later on another boundary though, when it comes to relationships is just the fact that you refuse to use another person for your own benefit, you know, using them for the sake of just using them for some benefit for yourself when it's something that's not truly good for the other person that could be a boundary that you have in your relationship or, or not allowing yourself to be used, like knowing when you know, a guy or a girl is just.

Interested in you because they want some from you, especially sexual, that happens a ton in relationships, right? Someone just wants to use you, uh, for a physical or an emotional reason. They're not really interested in you. They don't really care about you care about, you know, you as a person, your body, your soul, everything.

And speaking of our souls, of course, there's boundaries. When it comes to our souls, we won't go into that one as much as a little bit more complicated, but of course, when it comes to like bad habits, we can say, I won't do these bad habits or I'm working. To get these bad habits out of my life. Or, you know, another boundary you can say is like, I'm gonna follow God's plan for my life, and I'm not gonna do the things that are not included in that plan for my life.

And so on you, you get the example, but all these things, all these things, all these different areas of our lives, we need boundaries in. We need healthy limits in those areas of our life. And when those things are broken, right? When we set the boundaries in those areas of our lives, there need to be.

Consequences when they're broken, especially by other people. And one of the basic ways that we can set those boundaries of course, is with our words, we can say that, you know, I won't tolerate someone calling me bad names or I won't gossip about other people. I'm gonna confront them directly. If I have a problem with them or, you know, using the word, no, of course is, is a simple verbal boundary that, that we can use with people in various situations.

We also use words of course, to, to communicate our likes, our dislikes, what we're feeling, you know, what we're willing to do, what we're not willing to do. And so on. And of course, that could take the form of saying, Hey, you know, I like this, or I hate that or yeah, I'll do this or no, I will not do that. And so those are all examples of, of how we set boundaries and even it force them as well.

And like I mentioned, consequences need to happen when someone breaks a boundary and it doesn't mean they always need to be super serious. So. You know, it may not be as serious of a boundary violation, but there needs to be consequences. And we can't only just set boundaries without enforcing them. If we set boundaries without enforcing them, then people are just gonna walk all over our boundaries that they're just gonna violate our boundaries and then nothing will ever happen.

So they'll learn, oh, these aren't real boundaries. These are, you know, just fake boundaries. And so I can do whatever I want. So if someone breaks our boundaries, There have to be consequences. Those consequences have to be enforced. And a typical one of course is, you know, if you break into someone's home, you're gonna get rest.

You know, you violated a boundary of going onto someone's property, breaking into their home. You're gonna get arrested. You know, another one may be if you trash my car, right. If I would give you my car to, to use, to borrow and you trash it, right, you may get it all dirty. You leave things everywhere.

You're not gonna be using it again. I'm not gonna let you borrow it again. And so you can see how, again, we'd set the boundaries in different areas of our life, where we have ownership over, and then we have to enforce those boundaries when they're broken. And like I mentioned those consequences, things that we enforce when someone breaks our boundaries, show the seriousness of breaking that boundary.

Now, one objection that they bring up in the book when they are teaching people about boundaries, is that people say, well, wait a minute. Aren't we supposed to love and help other people. It seems like these boundaries kind of repel people away from us instead of being loving and nice and kind and all those things.

And what they basically say is, yes, we do have a responsibility to love people, but there's a limit. It can't be unhealthy. And so one of the ways that they put it is that we are responsible to others. And for ourselves, they explain it this way. They say that we need to help people with their burdens, right?

Those things in their lives that are just too big to bear for any one person, people like that, right. They're going through something really difficult in life. They don't have the capacity to carry that burden by themselves. They lack the strength. They lack the resources. They lack the knowledge to deal with that thing at the same.

There's lesser problems, lesser things that each person should carry on their own. They call that the daily load. These are things that people can't do for us, and they really shouldn't do for us unless of course, you know, we're disabled in some serious way where we really need people to step in and do things that.

Everyday average people should be able to do. And the analogy they use is that burdens, right? Those big things in life are like boulders, right? Those big, huge rocks that, that nobody can carry on their own. And examples of those of course are some sort of tragedy in someone's life or maybe some crisis in their life.

And so in those moments, of course, people need our help. We can't turn our back on them. We have a responsibility to them, but on the other. An everyday load is not a tragedy or a crisis, right? Little problems, things that come up, we shouldn't be constantly solving them for other people. You know, they need to take responsibility for things in their life.

And this same is true for us. We need to take responsibility of certain things in our life. Some of the things which I already mentioned, and what they explain is that problems arise. When people act as if boulders are daily loads and refuse, help. Or as if daily loads are boulders, they shouldn't have to carry the result of those two instances are either perpetual pain or irresponsibility.

So you can imagine, you know, if someone goes through something really serious in life and it's just too much for them to handle, they need help. Right. They need to reach out. They need to ask for help. But if they refuse that help for that big crisis, maybe they, you know, got in a big car accident. They don't want the paramedics to help them, but they're actually like bleeding or hurting.

It's like, no, in that moment, you need someone to help you. They need to accept that help. And so it's good to accept, help with those things, their lives that are boulders, those big issues. On the other hand, you know, of course they explain that those daily things, those daily loads, we need to take respons.

Of those things and, you know, there's a problem, of course, if, you know, if I'm like a 30 year old guy and I'm still having my mom, you know, do my laundry for me, unless of course, again, I'm disabled in some way where I can't do that. There's a problem there. I need to take responsibility over those things in my life that that really I should be responsible for.

I wanna change gears and talk about problems with boundaries and those problems can come in many forms, of course, but one of the things they say in the book is that any confusion of responsibility and ownership in our lives is a problem of boundaries. They go on to say again, this is kind of striking.

So listen to this. They say many clinical. Psychological symptoms such as depression, anxiety disorders, eating disorders, addictions, impulsive disorders, guilty problems, shame issues, panic disorders, and marital and relational struggles. Find their roots in conflicts with boundaries. Now, no doubt that there's a lot in that sentence, but basically they're saying that often at the root of a lot of our problems and issues and symptoms is often an issue with boundaries and they say one of the things we can fall into when it comes to boundaries, which I alluded to earlier is that boundaries can either be too strict or they can be too lenient.

Right now, if our boundaries are too strict, then we wouldn't wanna allow good things to come in and we won't allow bad things to go out. Right. We're just kind of this walled up person that doesn't allow anything to permeate us. And so we need to make sure that our boundaries aren't too strict. An example of this of course, is a.

Maybe where we're so guarded around our heart, that we don't let anyone in. We'll never be vulnerable. We'll never let anyone see our heart. Of course, we don't want to go out to the opposite extreme. And that's what they say here. The other extreme is being too lenient to the point where, you know, they say the good may go out and the bad might come in, right where we maybe just open our heart or our bodies.

To anyone and everyone. And of course that's not good either. And so again, we can't have boundaries that are too strict, but we also can have them be too lenient. And so we need to hit that middle ground and they use the analogy again, of, of a home. They say that property lines, or you can think of a fence, must be a permeable enough to allow passing and strong enough.

To keep dangers out. So, you know, if you build like a 30 foot high concrete wall around your house without a door in it, well, your friends can't come over so don't do that. But on the other hand, you know, if you wanna have a fence around your house to, to keep out bad people, but you, you put a gate at one point or, you know, there's a way to enter for, you know, the people that you want to come in.

And so there needs to be a way for the good to come in and the bad to go out or to stay. In the book, they explain that people kind of fall into one of four areas or a combination of those areas when it comes to boundary problems. And first they say are compliance. They call 'em compliance. And those are people who say yes to the bad.

To explain this when they say to feel safe in such an evil world, children need to have the power to say things like these. No, I disagree. I will not. I choose not to stop that. It hurts. It's wrong. That's bad. I don't like it when you touch me there. Now, when someone prevents children from saying those things through whatever means, they, they say that blocking a child's ability to say no handicaps, that child.

For life. Now, this one of course strikes close to home for all of us because we come from broken families. And a lot of times in broken families, we are told just to be compliant in many cases, the sad truth is, and this is not a popular thing to say, but the sad truth is that there are people who don't want us to be hurt, who don't want us to be traumatized by the break.

Of our family and they try to tell us that everything's okay. And often we just kind of go along with it. We comply and, and that's extremely damaging. Again, another example would be, you know, if you've been abused in some way, someone trying to make light of that and say, you know, you know, it's fine, it's fine.

It'ss, it's not a big deal. It's so damaging. So again, we, we just go along, we, we don't have a backbone and that plays out later in life too. And they say in the book, after a while, it's hard to distinguish them. The people who really don't have a backbone who kind of just go along with whatever from their environment, we just kind of blend in because we have this inability to say no.

And one of the reason we have the inability to say no is because we're afraid of hurting another person's feeling. We're afraid of being abandoned. We're afraid of being on our own. Maybe we're afraid to say no, because we have this wish to be totally dependent on another person. Maybe we don't wanna face the responsibilities of life.

We'd rather be a victim in many ways, instead of taking ownership of our life. We have a fear of, of someone else's anger, especially if you grew up with a parent who would just burst out an anger at you, maybe you're afraid that if you say no, that anger is gonna come to the surface again, or maybe you're afraid of being punished by someone afraid of being shamed, afraid of being seen as just bad or selfish.

And so on and kind of another thing that goes along with this in the book they say is just this inability to confront others. Cuz if we can't say no, then we're not gonna be able to stand up to someone and say, no, what you did was wrong, what you did, it hurt me. And so we just, we kind of have these muscles.

That we're not using. And so they become so weak. If we ever try to use them, we really don't have the ability to, to do that. Unless of course we strengthen those muscles and work up to it. So that's the first type that people fall into being compliant saying yes to the bad. The next type is being avoidant.

Saying no to the good and, and yes, you can be both compliant and avoid it. We'll talk about that a little bit, but you can struggle with both where basically you're saying yes to the bad and no to the good, and really at the core of this, they explain is an inability to recognize your own needs. And because of that, you neglect your own needs, you push away those things.

That would be really good for you. And I remember hearing a story about a woman who came from a broken home and she was just really afraid of love, afraid of relationships. And she was engaged multiple times. She was engaged to, to good men. Men, who, you know, were gonna take care of her were gonna respect her.

These weren't just bad guys. They were actually good virtuous men, but she kept breaking the engagement off. She just couldn't go through with it. And there's a lot to that, of course. But I think this is at the core of this. She just had an inability to say yes to something that was so good. And then instead she said no.

And for, for people like that, It can be extremely difficult to be vulnerable, to open up to people. And you know, if you're religious to open up to God as well, the authors explain they that the people who deal with this experience, their problems and legitimate wants. As something bad, destructive or shameful.

I've seen this a lot in the Christian world when it comes to sex and sexual desire, you have, you know, people who are out there saying that sex is bad and dirty and, and that's why, you know, you shouldn't have it unless you're married and then it's tolerated. Not at all. You know, sexual desire is such a good and beautiful thing.

And because it's such a good and beautiful thing, we should use it in a proper way. But even people who do use it in a proper way, you know, within their marriage, They might feel like something is bad or dirty about sex because this has been ingrained in them. And so again, they, they just say no, or they don't allow themselves to experience really good and beautiful things.

Um, for one reason or another, and the end results, all those things is that we're left feeling drained and empty, or we might be giving, but we're not receiving. And so we feel empty. And when you combine right, the first type, someone who's compliant with the second type, someone who has avoidant, they say, you know, these type of people compliant, avoidance suffer from what is called reversed boundaries.

They have no boundaries where they need them and they have boundaries where they shouldn't have them. The, the third type is what they call controllers. So controllers basically don't respect other people's boundaries. And they say that controllers can't. Others' limits. They resist taking responsibility for their own lives, so they need to control others.

And they say there's really two types within this type of controllers. The first type is an aggressive controller. This is someone who's kind of boisterous. They're verbally abusive. Maybe they're physically abusive. They might not even be aware that others have boundaries. They might just go around acting like, you know, they own the world and, you know, everyone needs to do what they say and.

I'm sure everyone can think of someone they know like that, but, but the second type of controller, I is more stealthy and this would be a manipulative controller and they say this person persuades people out of their boundaries, they talk others into. Yes. They seduce others into carrying their burdens.

And they say, if someone like this does something for you, they may feel like they have some sort of a hold on you. Right? They, they may have some sort of a right to repayment because they did something for you. But, but they explain in the book, they say caring for someone so that they care back for us is simply an indirect means of control.

Someone else. So putting the, those two types of controllers aside, these type of people typically are undisciplined. They may be a slave to their impulses and their desires. It's just what they struggle with. And what they say is that having relied on bullying and in directiveness, They can't function on their own in the world.

Again, bullying being the aggressive type in directiveness, being that manipulator. And sadly, these type of people rarely feel loved. In fact, they're actually really afraid. They may not look afraid, especially the aggressive type you would think, oh gosh, this person is not afraid, but they actually have fear at their core.

And they believe that if they stop threatening or manipulating people, they would be abandon. So often that drives them. The next type are non-responsive. So these are people who really can't hear the needs of others, or don't choose to hear the needs of others. They kind of ignore, or maybe there's a lack of attention to their responsibility to love.

Other people. And you can especially see this in a relationship where maybe there's no room to be vulnerable. There's no room to, to feel hurt. There's no room to express a need. You kinda always have to be strong. You can think of a husband who just kind of, you know, ignores his wife's needs. He doesn't really allow his wife.

To speak up and say, Hey, I'm hurt by this. Or I'm struggling with this. There's really no room for that in their relationship. But speaking about this husband, they say he isn't responsible for her emotional wellbeing, but he is responsible. To her. And so of course there's limits on how much we can care for someone.

They need to care for themselves too, but we can't go too far in the opposite direction, especially to the people who really are within that sphere of responsibility that we have in our lives. And they say, when it comes to non-responsive, there are kind of two types similar to controllers, how there's aggressive and manipulative, uh, in this case.

There's a critical spirit towards others. So that's one type, someone who I guess kind of just looks down at other people and you know, when they see weakness in others, they just basically think, you know, why are you so helpless? Like, like get it together. And at the root of that is often this fact that we hate the fact that we have our own needs.

So we project that onto others. So when we see needs in other people, legitimate needs, we just kind of look down and say, you know, why are you so weak? Why don't you just suck it up and deal with it? So that's like the critical person, the critical non-responsive on the other end, there's someone who's so absorbed in their own desires and needs that they just forget about others.

Right. They just push out others because they, all they could think about is what they want and what they need. And of course, I guess that would be, uh, one definition of narcissism is just, you know, ignoring everyone else's needs because of what I want and what I. One of the lines I love the most from this part of the book is they said, take care of you, but not only you, we need to take care of other people as well.

And again, it goes back to helping people with their burdens, right? Those heavy boulders that they really can't carry on their own. And at the same time, giving them the freedom and the respect to carry those daily loads. In their own way, similar to when it came to people who are compliant and people who are avoidant, you can be both a controller and a non-responsive and they say that people like this, see others as responsible for their struggles and are on the lookout for someone to take care.

Of them. And I think those of us who come from broken homes, we can really relate to this because a lot of times we have this desire for someone to come in and rescue us for someone to take responsibility for the pain and the problems in our lives. We, we desire that savior. We desire a rescuer, and I think that that's a really good and beautiful desire in a lot of ways, but it's harmful to the extent that we're passively waiting for someone to save.

That we're not taking any action. We're not taking any ownership in our own lives. And this applies too, in your relationship with God, you know, God's not gonna do everything for you. He wants you to. With him. And so those are the four types. And just to go over them quickly, again, again, there's the compliant, there's the non-responsive, there's the controller and there's the avoidant.

And just to explain these, the compliant is someone who can't say no. Right. They say yes to basically everything, even things are bad for them. And, uh, they, they explain this person as someone who feels guilty and, or controlled by others and they can't set boundaries. Now, the non-responsive is someone who can't say yes.

Right. They there's someone who. Really pushes people aside and they set boundaries against their responsibility to love. Now, when it comes to, to the controller, you have someone who can't hear no, right. They wanna control everything. Maybe they're aggressive or they're manipulative, and they violate the boundaries of other people.

And then you have the avoidance and this is the person who can't hear. Yes. Right. They, they set boundaries against receiving the care of others. And one final point they make at this point in the book is that there's kind of two type of boundaries. There's functional boundaries, a person's ability to, to complete a task, a project or planning is a way that they say it.

And then on the other hand, there's relational boundaries and this is the ability to speak truth to others with whom we are in relationship. And they go on to explain that there's many people who have good function. Boundaries, but then poor relational ones. And you know, where someone's very, very competent maybe at their job or at school, they're very high performers, but they really struggle in their relationships.

They really struggle with boundaries. They really struggle with honesty in their relationships. And I I've seen this again and again, both hearing the stories of people who come from broken homes, reading the research, it, it really shows up that people who come from broken homes, sometimes they struggle with the function.

Boundaries. But a lot of times they're actually really good at the functional boundaries. They Excel at work. They Excel in school. They get good grades, you know, they do get at their job. They make good money, all those things, but then when it comes to their relationships, they really struggle there. And so this is something to give more thought, especially if you pick up the book, pay attention to this section.

And of course they say that the opposite can be true as well, where you can have someone who maybe is very good at relational boundaries that they're able to be open and to, to set boundaries with people in relationships, but they may be really bad at functional boundaries. You know, completing a task, a project, planning something, it, it may be a total disaster.

So it, it can go both ways. And I've seen the same in broken families when it comes to the opposite side of the spectrum. Another thing that they mentioned in the book is the law of boundaries. So these are 10 laws of boundaries and they list 'em all up. We don't have time to go into all 10, but basically they say that the laws of boundaries are like the laws of physics.

So one of the laws of physics is of course gravity, what goes up, must come down in our atmosphere. And so, you know, you can't fly on your own. You. Need a jet pack. You need a plane, you need something like that. It's just the way it is. These are laws of physics that we can't go against. And so when it comes to, to boundaries, these are rules of life that, that we can't beat, or we can't avoid.

And so even if, you know, we don't know those rules or we refuse to live by them. They still apply to us. We can't get around them. We'll still feel their effects in our lives. So since we can't go through all 10, I want to just give you six of them. So the, the first law of boundaries is the law of sewing and reaping.

And what they basically mean here is cause and effect. If you eat unhealthy food and you don't ever work out your health will. Right. Your body will begin to fall apart. If you spend more money than you have, you're gonna end up being stressed about money and you're gonna end up being a slave to debt.

And so there's that cause and effect, relationship everywhere in our lives. And what they say is that boundaries force the person who is doing the sewing. The cause also to do the reaping the effect. And so basically we're gonna experience the consequences of our own actions, whether those are good consequences or, or bad consequences, we're gonna feel the effects of the decisions of the actions that we have in our own lives.

One of the things they point out that's really common is that a lot of times we may be tempted to rescue irresponsible people. And they say that's actually really damaging because those people need to experience the consequences of their actions. They need to experience those negative effects, uh, of what they're doing with their lives.

And, and if we simply rush in and save them, From those negative effects, we're enabling them. We, we do have to let people fail and that sounds kinda harsh. And it's really hard to do, especially when we really care about someone. I think parents probably have the hardest time doing this with their children, especially once the kids grow up and they need to be responsible on their own.

If parents rush in and prevent any negative effects, prevent anything bad from happening. When their child is doing something wrong or bad, then the kid's gonna just continue doing that. They're never gonna change until they experience the negative effects from their actions. So that's law. Number one, the law of sewing and reaping again, cause and effect law.

Number two is a law of responsibility. It can be tempting to think that I'm only responsible for myself. I have no obligation to other people and that. False. That's not true. We, we do have an obligation to other people. And one of the lines they use in the book is that we are to love one another, not be one another.

And so we need our separateness, our individuality, but at the same time, we need to treat people well, and we need to follow the golden rule. We need to treat other people like we want to be treated, but at the same time, like I mentioned, we need to give people the freedom to make mistakes. Another way of saying is we can help people grow.

But we can't grow for them. You know, you could help your friend with their fitness. You could help your friend learn how to manage their money, but you can't work out for them and, and you can't manage their money for them. They have to do it on their own. And so there's that give and take there's that balance between being responsible for someone and then letting them.

Kinda do things on their own. So that's law, number two, the law of responsibility law. Number three is the law of power. Now, if you're familiar with alcoholics anonymous or any 12 step program, a key part of it is admitting that you're powerless over something, right? Whether that's alcohol or sex or some substance.

And so how does that work with boundaries? Well, while we are powerless over some things in our lives, in the book, they say we do. The power to do some things that will bring more power or self control down the road. And they just lay out a few things. They say, you know, you have the power to, to agree with the truth about your problems, basically to, to face your problems, to own them.

Even if you can't overcome them yet. Next is say you have the power to submit your inability to God. You can ask him for help. You can ask him for his grace. You can ask him for his strength. Next they say you have the power to search. And ask God and others to reveal more and more about what is within your boundaries.

Another one they say is you have the power to humble yourself and ask God and others to help you with your developmental injuries and leftover childhood. Needs, they go on, you have the power to turn from the evil that you find within you. You have the power to, to seek out those whom you have injured and make amends and on and on.

And so, you know, while we may be powerless over some things in our lives, we do have power over certain things and we can work to gain more and more self-control in areas of our Relion. At this point, they quote the serenity prayer, and they really say that this could be the boundary prayer. So if you listen closely, they.

God grant me the serenity to accept the things. I cannot change. The things that I powerless over the courage to change the things I can, the things that I have some power or self-control over and the wisdom to know the difference. And so I think there's a lot of wisdom in that prayer and understanding that there is a balance here.

They also touch on the limit in our ability to help other people. And they say, you cannot change others. More people suffer from trying to change others than from any other sickness. And it is impossible. What you can do is influence others, but there is a trick. Since you cannot get them to change, you must change yourself so that their destructive patterns no longer work on you, change your way of dealing with them.

They may be motivated to change if they're old ways, no longer work. So that's law. Number three, the law of power law. Number six, I'm skipping ahead here. Long number six is a law of evaluation. So basically they say it's really, really, really important to know the difference between hurt and. They give the example of going to the dentist.

So if you have a cavity in one of your teeth, you go to the dentist and obviously it's gonna hurt when they take out that cavity. Right? It's not gonna be pleasant. Maybe they numb you up, but eventually you're gonna feel some pain, but if you ask the question. Did it harm me? The answer is no, it actually helped you, even though it did hurt.

Now, on the other hand, if you think about like eating sugar or something, that's not healthy for you, you can ask, did it hurt you? Was it painful? And of course the answer is, well, no, of course not. But did it harm you? And the answer is yes, of course it wasn't good for me in the long run. And so there is a difference between hurt and harm.

And I love this distinction. They say things can hurt. But not harm us. In fact, they can even be good for us and things that feel good. It can be very harmful to us. And, and I think the prime example is when you're in a dating relationship or maybe even an engagement and, you know, you need to break up with the person that you're with.

You come to the realization that this is not right. This is not what you're meant to do. Uh, it can be really, really painful to go through that, both for you, but especially the person you're breaking up with. However, you know, if that's what's best for that person, that's what's best for you. You're not harming.

Right. Ultimately, you're doing it for what's good for you and what's good for them. And so again, there's a difference between hurt and harm. And we really need to recognize that that in life we're going to hurt people. That's inevitable. It's sad, but that's just inevitable. That's what's gonna happen in our broken world, but we can avoid as much as possible harming other people.

And so next time you're in a situation where maybe you need to have an uncomfortable conversation with someone, or you need to do something that's gonna hurt someone. Ask yourself the question. Am I just gonna hurt them or am I gonna harm them? Because there is a difference. So that's law, number six, the law of evaluation law.

Number nine. Again, we're skipping ahead is the law of activity. Basically, we need to take action in life. We can't sit around and wait for something to happen. We have to try things. Even if we fail, we have to try things. We have to bring ourselves to action, which can be really difficult in some situ. And again, other people can't do it for us and they use an awesome analogy in the book.

They say, I have been told that when a baby bird is ready to hatch, if you break the egg for the bird, it will die. The bird must Peck its way out of the egg, into the world. This aggressive workout strengthens the bird, allowing it to function in the outside. Robbed of this responsibility, it will die. And so you can see how, when we do things for other people that they should do for themselves or other people do things for us that we should do for ourselves, it can actually be harmful.

It actually damage us, uh, in a serious way for the long term. And so we, we need to understand that we need to take action and we need to do the things within our responsibility and allow other people to do the things within their responsibility. That's law number. The law of activity law. Number 10 is the law of exposure in the book.

They say that boundaries need to be made visible. To others and communicated to them in relationship. They go on to say that we secretly resent, instead of telling someone that we are angry about how they have hurt us. Often we will privately endure the pain of someone's irresponsibility instead of telling them how their behavior affects us and other loved ones information that would actually be helpful to them.

And so basically we can't expect people to read our. I mean, how often do we hear that though? Right? We, we know that, but it's really hard to do. It's really hard to do. Like I screw this up all the time. I forget to say things to my wife communicate things to my wife. And so she won't know. She won't know unless I tell her my boundaries and other things.

And the danger here. If we don't communicate our boundaries is that if our boundaries are not communicated, they say and expose directly, they will be communicated indirectly or through manipulation, passive aggressiveness. Basically, if we don't say it explicitly, we're gonna do it in passive aggressi ways.

And I've fallen into this too. I'll be the first to admit that, you know, instead of going through the uncomfortable conversation or the conflict that it's involved, when you need. Express a boundary or a frustration or some problem to someone I I've been tempted and sometimes fallen into being a, you know, maybe a manipulative or being a little bit of, uh, passive aggressive.

And that is just never good. It always. Damages that relationship, maybe you don't see the effects now, but down the road, it will because of course it hurts trust. And so it's so much better to go through and learn how to have those difficult conversations and, and be explicit. With our boundaries, with the issues that we see with people instead of being indirect or manipulative.

So that's law, number 10, the law of exposure. So by this point, you got a lot to think about, right? There's a lot to this whole boundary thing. And if you wanna learn more, I really suggest that you pick up the book. Boundaries. And you can buy that wherever you buy books, uh, whether that's on Amazon or someone else.

Uh, we also have a link in the show notes to make it easy for you guys. So you can click in your, uh, podcast app, or you can go to the show notes, which I'll mention in a second. And, uh, in the book, you know, that covers a bunch of things. Some of the things that we talked about, but a lot we didn't talk about.

And so, you know, in the book they talk about what boundaries are they go into that more, what they protect, you know, how they're developed, how they're injured. How to repair them, some of the problems that come up, like we mentioned how to use boundaries and the whole goal of course, is so that you can achieve the healthy relationships and the purpose in your life that you were born to achieve.

And so I, I really recommend if you want more on this, if this is something that would be useful to you, useful to your relationships, useful to your life, go ahead and pick up that book and start working your. Through it. And if you prefer it in a different format to that, they actually have a course on boundaries.

I I'd probably start with the book, but if you wanna just jump into the course, the website is boundaries.me again, boundaries.me, not.com.me. And on there, you can find the course and there's some other content as well. If you wanna learn more about boundaries. And I think that's specifically from Dr.

Henry cloud, one of the authors of the boundaries book. The resources mentions are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 36. Again, restored ministry ministries, just singular.com/ 36. Six. Thank you so much for listening. Hope this has been useful to you. I hope it's been helpful. Uh, if it has been, I invite you to subscribe and invite you to share this episode with someone, you know, who needs to hear this content.

And always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

5 Step Exercise to Grow as a Person

4 minute read

The unexamined life is not worth living. – Socrates

To grow as a person, it’s essential to work to overcome your weaknesses. That’s obvious.

What’s not obvious is where to focus. 

The first step is identifying where you are weak. Without doing that, you can’t grow. In fact, you’ll feel stuck. 

The problem? Your weaknesses are often in your blindspots. It takes intentional effort to pinpoint them.

The 5 step exercise below helps you to honestly assess your life, so you know where to grow.

For years, this simple exercise has helped me to grow. It will do the same for you.

Step 1: Break Your Life Into Areas

To start, break your life into various areas. To help, here is a typical breakdown.

• Spiritual

• Marriage/Dating

• Health

• Family

• Friendships

• Personal Growth

• Money

• Career/School

• Leisure

Copy the list to your notes app or write it on a piece of paper. Feel free to add or remove any life areas. 

Step 2: Prioritize Those Areas

In life, it’s vital to put the most important things first. And so, prioritize the areas of your life so you understand which are the most important.

The easiest way to do it: Add a number next to each - 1 is the highest priority in your life, 2 is next, and so on.

Then, rewrite the list in order of importance.

Step 3: Rate Each Area

Rate each area using green, yellow, or red. If you can’t use the actual colors, just write the words. Here’s what each color means:

• Green: Good or even great.

• Yellow: Mediocre or okay.

• Red: Bad or poor.

For example, you can write it out like this.

• Spiritual Life: Yellow

• Career: Green

• Money: Red

For those of you who are hard on yourselves, give yourself some grace. For those of you who are more lenient, step it up.

Step 4: Pick 1-2 Areas

After pinpointing your weak areas, it’s tempting to think: “I’m going to fix everything, now!”

I’ve tried it. It doesn’t work. You can’t fix everything at once. If you try it, you’ll be overwhelmed. You’ll hardly make any progress in any area.

Instead, focus on 1-2 weak areas. You can always address the other areas later.

An easy way to choose:

1. Your highest life areas that are red

2. Your highest priority yellows, if you only have one or zero reds.

For example, let’s say your top priority is your spiritual life. It’s red. Next, your marriage or dating relationship is yellow. After that, your health is red. 

In that case, focus on your spiritual life and your health. Naturally, don’t neglect your marriage. But just for a month, focus primarily on growing your spiritual life and health. 

Step 5: Set One Goal for Each Area

Make a simple plan to improve this month or next. In other words, set one goal for each of the top areas. 

In future content, we’ll give practical tips on how to set goals you will actually accomplish. 

Comfort vs Greatness

Most people drift through life. Unwilling to grow, they live a comfortable life.

But you were not made for comfort. You were made for greatness.

To achieve greatness requires constant growth. It isn’t easy. But it is worth it.

Beware of the temptation of a comfortable life. It promises you happiness, but it doesn’t deliver. In fact, it leaves you feeling stuck, mediocre, and void of meaning.

To pursue greatness starts with facing your weaknesses. Then, you can work hard to destroy them and become a better, stronger person. 

The result? You’ll start growing again. You’ll feel unstuck. You’ll begin to live a happier, more meaningful life. 

And so, take 15 minutes to do the exercise now. If you can’t now, schedule a time to do it tonight or sometime this week. 

You got this. Get after it.