The Divorce Mistakes That Hurt Children Most | Erica Komisar : #180

Divorce is traumatic for children at every age—but parents can either deepen that wound or help their children heal.

In this conversation, licensed clinical social worker and psychoanalyst Erica Komisar explains why a “good divorce” requires parents to stop focusing on what feels fair to them and start prioritizing what their children actually need. She shares practical ways to create stability, reduce emotional damage, and protect children from being pulled into adult conflict.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• Why frequent transitions between homes can destabilize children

• How to tell children about a divorce without overwhelming them

• Why parents must avoid oversharing, badmouthing, and using children as messengers

• How a parent’s emotional regulation affects a child’s ability to cope

• Why flexibility, sacrifice, and stability matter more than rigid ideas of fairness

If you’re divorced, considering divorce, or trying to help your child adjust to a family breakup, this episode is for you.

Learn more about Erica Komisar, her books, and her work

Get the free guide, “7 Ways to Work Through the Pain of Your Parents’ Divorce”

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey Pontarelli (00:00)

Erica, welcome to the show. So good to have you.

Erica Komisar (00:01)

Thank you for having me.

Joey Pontarelli (00:03)

So many divorced or divorcing parents feel super lost when it comes to how to help their children. And one thing I've noticed too, Erica, is that hearing that divorce is traumatic for children of all ages, it's kind of a hard truth for them to to stomach. And so to the parent listening right now, who might be tempted to maybe even turn off this interview, why might it benefit them to keep listening to what you have to say?

benefit them and their children.

Erica Komisar (00:31)

Divorce is traumatic for all children, and that can't be denied, but there are ways to mitigate the trauma. There are ways to help children to cope with it so they come out of that experience more resilient and capable of having loving relationships. And so so that's really an important and hopeful message that, you know, although it is a challenge for children and not a challenge that we should deny is a challenge.

There are ways to reduce the the negative impact on those children so they come out emotionally healthy.

Joey Pontarelli (01:03)

I couldn't agree more. And and I agree there's I think been somewhat of a trend in the past to maybe not call this a trauma, but I really appreciate your voice on this, saying no, it is a trauma, but there's a lot of hope and that we can, you know, give them the help that they deserve. On that note, I think we do have to har start with the hard truth. Like why is divorce traumatic for children of all ages?

Erica Komisar (01:23)

Well, it's probably one of the biggest losses. First of all, you know, I think the divorce rate is between forty and fifty percent. So that means that at least one in two families face divorce, right? And so what that means is not all those families have children, but of the ones who have children, it means that those children are exposed to one of the greatest losses that they'll ever face in their lives, which is the loss of the nuclear family, the loss of the unit, the loss of the security and safety.

That having a mother and father who love each other and live in the same home provides for children. Children have and need a kind of illusion of permanence. You know, we know that there's no permanence in in the world. Bad things can happen and and there's there's loss that we as adults know is is coming. You know, we don't live forever. And so we know that loss is part of life, but for children, they need

A kind of protection from that as much as possible. So the idea that relationships are permanent and unconditional, and that you have this constancy is really important for children's development. So when parents say we're not gonna live together anymore, we don't love each other anymore, it destroys that.

illusion for children that protects them and helps them to develop in a healthy way. And then they have to reinvent an idea of what security means. So it really interrupts it's a disruptor of children's emotional security.

Joey Pontarelli (02:55)

Couldn't agree more. And having, you know, gone through my parents' divorce and mentored so many young people from divorced families, I I think you said this elsewhere. It truly feels like the death of your family. And I think if we start talking about it there, then we can help them grieve and like you said, move on, move beyond it, close that chapter in their lives. But I think I you're wise to start with, yeah, I I think we have to face that hard truth. But I want to shift gears a little bit. You say that a good divorce is better than a bad divorce.

marriage. So there's obviously a lot to unpack in that statement alone. I wanna start with

Erica Komisar (03:27)

Misinterpreted,

it can be misinterpreted. So, and it often is misinterpreted for that people think that I'm promoting divorce, which I'm not at all. What I'm saying is that the old research, so my book was written because the research had changed about divorce, which is the old research from the eighties, a woman named Judith Wallerstein wrote a sort of a book about how all divorce was damaging to children in ways that meant that you probably shouldn't divorce, you know.

And the newer research talks about how it's actually worse for children to live in a family with intractable conflict, unresolvable con conflict that leads to hostility between parents or even abuse between parents. That children do best when their parents are together and love each other and are affectionate and show their love for one another. That's when children feel the most secure.

With parents who love each other. You know, when little kids go, ew, you kiss mommy, or ew, you hug daddy, that is the best thing in the world for children, right? To see their parents love each other. We know that, but the the the idea that parents then hate each other or are hostile towards one another or are have unresolvable conflict is very damaging for children in a way that two parents living apart

And raising children in a co parenting situation that's more peaceful and civilized is actually found to be better for children than leaving in intractable conflict.

Joey Pontarelli (05:04)

That makes a lot of sense. And I appreciate you saying that you're not just saying ever anyone who wants a divorce, here's a guide you can use and your kids will be okay. That that it's really what you're describing is really the lesser of two really bad options. That's right. That makes so much sense. And so I want to dig in a little bit further if it's okay into this idea of a bad marriage. 'cause I think when people hear that, they might kind of fill in the blanks with, Well, I'm unhappy right now in this my season of my marriage and therefore it's a bad marriage, therefore I should get divorced. What would you say? You defined it already well.

But I'm curious, what would what else would you say are kind of the hallmarks, the signs of a marriage where it might be at the point where a divorce is necessary?

Erica Komisar (05:42)

When you no longer respect one another. You know, the ingredients that help a marriage to have longevity, you know, love is a word that we throw around, but love is it's it's a combination of many other feelings. respect, trust, admiration. I always say that when you stop admiring the person that you're married to, when you stop trusting them, when you stop respecting them, it's very hard to live with the person. And so, yeah, I mean

the word we use love is sort of a a a collage of other f of other feelings. And I would say one of the biggest things that's hard for parents is when they stop respecting and admiring one another.

Joey Pontarelli (06:24)

Okay. And do you think a bad marriage can be rescued?

Erica Komisar (06:28)

You know, the word bad and good, they're childlike terms and they're very binary. I think marriages that are challenging and challenged can be worked on. I do. But, you know, I I think that there is a problem today in that I think as a whole we have a population, maybe three generations of not very resilient people. And I'm gonna say, you know, my generation is responsible for

almost two of those generations now. And, you know, since the sixties, I think the whole family constitution has changed. I think the ability to cope with adversity has diminished because of the way we raise our children. And I've written other books that talk about that. But I think that we're not providing our our very young children with the kind of emotional security they need to cope with difficulty and challenges and adversity and conflict and

We're not around enough to teach them how to deal with conflict effectively. And so I think what ends up happening is a little bit of conflict can tip the balance. Whereas marriage generally has a lot of conflict. There's a lot of conflict. I mean, I use a term which I've used many times before, which is that there is no intimacy without conflict. You can't be intimate with a person unless you can get angry at them safely, unless you can tell them exactly how you feel.

unless they can get angry at you and tell you exactly how they feel because you're not the same person. And you're also, you know, in a traditional marriage, you're not the same gender. So genders are different. And so there is the myth that men and women are exactly the same has harmed marriage because men expect women to be like them and women expect men to be like them.

And there are there are there's a lot of crossover and similarities between men and women, but there's also a great deal of difference in terms of how they nurture what's important to them, how they relate on an intimate level, what they need. And so this kind of gender neutralizing has done a lot of harm to, I think, to marriage, because it's made men and women feel that if the person isn't exactly like them.

And which is a narcissistic fantasy, by the way, that you should marry someone that is a complete and total reflection of you. Of course you want someone who can reflect some who can reflect your differences, who can look at you and say, you know, I see you're sad. That person may not be sad, but they can look at you and say, I see this has made you sad. But today I think there's the expectation that the person is going to be exactly you.

What that's doing is that is condemning a lot of young people to being alone because you're never gonna find somebody exactly like you.

Joey Pontarelli (09:24)

You so good. Yeah. And I do think that's a whole nother topic for another show, but I do think a lot of there's a lot of unrealistic expectations for, like you said, what to look for in a partner. but like I said, another show for another time. One of the things that comes up frequently is this idea, you know, when deciding maybe if you're gonna get divorced or not, is this idea of emotional or psychological abuse. Yeah. it's definitely a tricky thing. I wanted to get your advice on this because with sexual or physical abuse, there's, you know, obviously it's it's a clear there's clear signs. You you can see it pretty clearly.

But how do you discern between abuse and bad behavior when it comes to emotional and psychological?

Erica Komisar (10:00)

That's

good question. I think the word we throw the words trauma and abuse around a lot. And so what I would do is define the difference between big T trauma and little T trauma, and and say that the big T traumas are: is somebody physically hurting you? Is somebody sexually hurting you? And then I think what we call little T traumas, which have never been recognized.

in the divorce court system until recently is emotional abuse. Is someone critical? Does someone undermine you? Does someone demean you or diminish you? And you know, make you small emotionally? And so what we understand is that big T traumas are are more concrete, they're more evident, but little T traumas of emotional abuse are not little at all. They can be more devastating because

The rest of the world may not identify them as trauma and also may not see them because they're done quietly in the privacy of your own home and you don't get a physical bruise from them. And so, you know, I think it's really important to recognize emotional abuse or emotional trauma as important because I think it's probably the main reason that people get divorced, not because of physical or sexual abuse, but because of

emotional abuse. And so yeah, there is a difference, but I think I think the the important thing is to recognize the emotional the criticism, the the demeaning, the diminishing as being important in terms of the destruction of a relationship.

Joey Pontarelli (11:41)

Relationship.

Yeah, absolutely. What I've kind of gathered on this, because I've asked different people their opinion on this, is that it has to do maybe with the seriousness of it, the persistence of it, whether there's any sort of corrective behavior, and also the impact on the person on the receiving end, maybe more of a clear sign. Like if you know one expert said that, you know, if someone's throwing so much criticism at you that you end up

starting to experience signs of depression and different things like that, then that's a pr pretty clear sign that you might be in a situation of emotion.

Erica Komisar (12:15)

But we look for patterns in life. So if in other words, if someone circumstantially is going through a very hard time and they are particularly difficult to live with or they are they, you know, they blow up or they're emotionally dysregulated in a very acute way, you'd say the ability to to to help that person through whatever trauma they're going through is part of marriage. And so the chronicity is a big

factor, looking for patterns, but if the person's character is impaired. And when we say chronicity, we're looking for characterological things. So, you know, people often ask me, what's the difference between therapy and analysis? Because I'm a psychoanalyst and we do both. And I say, well therapy is about dealing with symptoms and dealing with immediate pain. Analysis is about character logical change. It's about, you know, someone who has had

longstanding characterological issues. You know, either they can't regulate their emotions in a in a regular, in a in a constant way, and there's cranicity to it. So yeah, we look for the difference between something that might be symptomatic of a circumstance in that person's life and you wouldn't divorce them if they're they've lost their job and they're they got, you know, circumstantially depressed. And would you leave your spouse? I mean I would hope not. I would hope you would help them through like any illness. But

If they are chronically since when you got together with them or since you married them and there's been a pattern, that's quite a different thing, you know. yeah. I think chronicity has a lot to do with

Joey Pontarelli (13:56)

That's a really helpful distinction and maybe we'll leave it there for now 'cause there's so much else that we can talk about. I wanna shift gears to this idea of like a good divorce. Wha what would you say is a good divorce? A good divor

Erica Komisar (14:07)

Force is one in which two people are the term used to be amicable, but I would say have good open communication, work together, and still have a modicum of respect for one another. You may not be in love with the person anymore, but you still care about them and you still have a modicum of respect for them. And so in that way you can co-parent in a respectful way. Because I think respect is really the word that.

you know, r some respect. If you respected them fully, you might still be married to them. But if you can hold on to a modicum of caring and respect and you go into the co-parenting situation, you know, in a healthier way, and you put your children first, that there's an agreement that no matter what feelings you have towards one another, no matter what has transpired in the marriage, that meant that the marriage didn't work, that these children aren't

divorcing either one of you. They are going to be connected to to both of you forever. And that you want to as a couple, you've made a decision that even divorced, you are going to focus on the health and mental health of these children and put their needs before your own selfish needs.

You know, the concept of fairness should be stricken from your mind when you think of divorce. Because adults go into a divorce situation and into custody situations thinking about what's fair to me as the adult. What's my share? What's my share of the money? What's my share of the children? And they'd end up treating children like inanimate objects or possessions, not like the human beings that they are who have.

developmental needs that have to precede your own sense of fairness. Because the truth is that, you know, what I say to parents is if you can avoid divorcing, this is a Judith Wallerstein moment, if you can avoid divorcing before your youngest is three years of age, I would recommend it highly, unless there is a real physical or sexual abuse situation. If you've had these children together and you cared about each other enough to have them.

Hold on till your youngest is three, because that is a critical period, that zero to three, where tearing that family apart would not be best for anybody and certainly not good for those children. You know, if it's not good for those children to disrupt attachment security, it's not going to be good for you as parents in the long run. So in that case, you put your children first and you wait. You wait till your youngest is three. After that, you have to look at

Who that individual child is, a sensitive child may not be able to be separated from their primary attachment figure, who's usually the mother, not always today, but usually the mother, for long periods of time. And so the idea that you split a baby like a sandwich, like you cut it in half, you get half, and I get half, this whole weird idea of 50-50, which didn't exist, you know, 75 years ago. There was something called the tender years doctrine, which

made it possible for people to divorce, but still the primary attachment figure was considered to be critical to that child, even through the primary school years. So the idea that children need to rest their heads in one home with with one primary guardian, even though both parents should have equal access to them. So let's say it was the mother who the children lived with. The father

could have as much access to the children during the week in a good divorce. So if you want to know what a good divorce is, that the father or whoever is the non-primary attachment figure parent has as much access to that child during the week, picking them, dropping them off at school, picking them up at school, having pretend sleepovers, having dinner with them.

But that when they when it came to overnights, they rested their head on the same pillow during the week, particularly when they were in school. So it didn't disrupt constancy. And then when the weekend came, the father or the non-primary attachment figure took the children, and the children who were older at that point were were doing sleepovers on the weekends with their father. That is still the best way. It's still the best way. Now, when children hit adolescence, it can shift.

So children say, and even in primary school years, you know, a little boy may need his father more and say, I want to live with daddy. And that shouldn't be necessarily fought by the mother. And maybe the idea is maybe it is best that the primary guardianship is daddy and then you get the little boy on weekends. So

the concept and particularly in adolescence that happens a lot where teenagers will say, I want to live with the non-primary attachment parent. Now I want to see what that feels like. And you say, that's fine. You know, w you you need us both and you you haven't lived with your dad during the week in a long time. So let's switch. Now you live with your dad during the week and I get you on weekends. It's it's removing the tension with about fairness from divorce and looking at what children actually need, not what you need.

And that's a really hard thing to do because there's so much pain that disrupts your good judgment. that disrupts your ability to sacrifice and do what's best for your children because you're so focused on your own pain. Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (19:31)

Which I understand, you know, if you've ever had a toothache or stubbed your toe really bad, it's like all you can think about is that thing. And so I've definitely seen parents where, you know, in other contexts they're great, you know, people, but they're just so hurt and there's so much emotion that they're almost blind to the damage they're doing to their children. Absolutely.

Erica Komisar (19:50)

We call it defensive aggression. I mean th this concept of two two three, which is the most common divorce custody arrangement in in America, is so very damaging to children. It is so s whoever is listening to this, it is so very damaging to children.

Children who grow up and then have reported back to me as patients, as adult patients, say that was one of the things that damaged them the most. That they were thrown around like a sack of potatoes from home to home and never had a sense of constancy and didn't feel stable. So I don't know if anybody who's listening has ever had the experience of like traveling, where you're traveling out of a suitcase and you're going from place to place two days and two days and three days.

I used to call it traveling through Europe on the tour, you know, one night in Amsterdam, two nights in London, you know, three days in Paris. And by the end, you're just like, I want to be home. I want to be home. And so it's this weird idea. So parents could never adjust to that, which is interesting. If you can't adjust to the idea of two days in one place, like a rock star, two days in one place, two days in another, three days, and then two days and two days and three.

Why would you expect your children to be comfortable? Children are more vulnerable, they're more sensitive. And so if you take that paradigm off the table, which the lawyers and the judges love to throw because it's it it it splits the baby in half like a sandwich, and say, actually that's a terrible custody arrangement for children. Absolutely terrible.

Joey Pontarelli (21:25)

No, I couldn't agree more. And on that note, what is nesting and does it have benefits to the children? So you just found out that your parents are getting divorced, or maybe the pain from their split has started to resurface. Either way, you feel alone and you might even be experiencing emotional problems like anxiety, falling into habits that you're not proud of just to numb the pain, and struggling in or feeling afraid of romantic relationships. I've been there, I totally get it.

But worst of all, perhaps you fear that one day you might repeat your parents' story. If you can relate, I wrote a free digital guide for you. It's called Seven Ways to Work Through the Pain of Your Parents' Divorce. Inside, I share practical steps that you can take to grieve the loss of your family, healthy ways to deal with your pain, and expert tips to heal those wounds. It's what I wish someone would have told me years ago, seasoned by 20 years of experience navigating my parents' split.

Listening to hundreds of young people from broken families one on one and helping tens of thousands of us heal and grow. You are not alone and you're not doomed to repeat your parents' story. Download your free guide at restored ministry dot com slash seven ways or click the link in the show notes.

Erica Komisar (22:33)

For young children and when you first divorce, yes. So even if you don't have young children and you are just divorcing for the first year, I like the idea of nesting because it helps with the transition. Nesting basically means that the children stay in the primary home and the parents go to a secondary home. So let's say you buy a pied de terre an apartment that's separate. So, you know, maybe them the mother would stay in the home.

In that way you might be able to do two, two, three, you know, if the children were in the primary home. The children don't move. The problem with that is that it doesn't work past about a year. And the reason I say this is because parents end up having a need for stability. So this is so interesting. Parents go, I can't live out of a suitcase. I can't do this two, two, three thing anymore. And I'm like,

That's the point. So why would you expect your children to do it? yeah. And then what happens is parents also start to have relationships, adult romantic relationships after about a year, if not sooner. And then it becomes very complicated because where do you bring your girlfriend or your boyfriend back to? To the same apartment, and now you're sleeping in a bed that is

the same bed that your ex-husband is sleeping in with his girlfriend, or you're sleeping in the same bed as your ex-wife is sleeping with her boyfriend. So it doesn't really, it's not really practical for very long, but it does work for the first year while everybody's in shock and there's a sense of sort of shock and awe and you need to adjust sort of in transition. But long term it doesn't work. No. Okay. Best

Joey Pontarelli (24:16)

No.

Erica Komisar (24:17)

is for parents to live

Close to each other, nearby in the same town. you know, even walking distance if possible for school age and adolescent children. where they can walk back and forth to each other's homes. And and again, not the two two three arrangement, you know, the idea of either four and three or

five and two, it works much better for children. And again, it can alternate. So maybe when children are older, they switch and they live, you know, and maybe certain children have more sensitivity and you might have two or three children, not just one child. And children don't all have the same need of their of their primary attachment figure. Some have more of a need for their mother or their father than others. And so you have to respect that.

And so if you have three children and one of them just can't do an overnight at your house, don't make a big deal of it. Do pretend overnights. Do a day full of activities and love and spending time together. And when it comes to sleep time, bring them home to the bed that they need to be in and the parent they need to be close to. Again, if you prioritize your child and their needs and their sense of security, you can't go wrong.

Joey Pontarelli (25:34)

No, that's so good. Yeah, just kind of zooming out from this conversation, I'm thinking, My goodness, this is just so complicated and thinking back to, you know, when I had to do a lot of this as a, you know, teenager, young young adult.

Erica Komisar (25:46)

Are afraid

their children they'll lose their children's love. The truth of the matter is they're more likely to be loved by their children when they make sacrifices than when they don't. When they're selfish and self-oriented and narcissistic, their children, whether they are children or adult children, will always have hostility and resentment for those parents. Children know when their parents are being selfish. They have radar for their parents' selfishness. And so

When you can put aside your narcissism, as I say, lend your narcissism to your children. You get it back later. You don't lose it. You're not giving it permanently, you're lending it. Lend them your narcissism and let them be the focus and not you be the focus. Your children love you when you put them first. They don't love you when they get older, when you've put yourself first. And they know it.

Joey Pontarelli (26:42)

Yeah, no, they do for sure. And I wanna go back to this idea though of like the kind of less bad ages to get a divorce. So you mentioned the worst time would probably would be the zero to three. Is there another bad phase in a child's life where a divorce related sandwich?

Erica Komisar (26:58)

So in adolescence it's the second critical period of brain development, but you can say to parents they can't divorce throughout adolescence because adolescence is nine to twenty-five, but there are sensitive periods even in adolescence that make it harder for children. What we call in America middle school years are probably the hardest years for children other than zero to three, because there's so much going on emotionally, physically, they're going through puberty.

There's social drama, what I call the shifting the of tectonic plates socially, you know. they don't feel stable in their identity either, their sexual identity, sometimes their gender identity today, certainly in terms of friendships and who they are and their place in the world. They just don't know where they stand. So everything is moving. So you don't want to take away whatever little stability they have in those middle school years. And middle school is about fifth.

grade till about they go into high school till ninth grade. So you know we say that's middle school years. And then you don't want to divorce just when your children are going to college. Now why is that? Because and that's something that's was very common in the past that parents would say, particularly based on Judith Wallerstein's book, let's stay together. We're gonna stay together till they go to college and then we're gonna divorce the moment they're freshmen and they're out of the house. Yeah. And what that does is it takes away the tether

For them that tethers them to something stable. They need to know as they're traveling out in the world, they're travelers for the first time, exploring themselves out in the world as individuals, separate from their parents. They're trying to individuate, they're trying to figure out who they are. That is the worst time, other than zero to three, to take their stability away. So, what often happens is parents do that, children go to college or leave home and then they break down.

Right away in that freshman year, they break down. And so if you've held it as long as eighteen years, hold it a little longer. Hold it for another couple of years till they're more stable, till they have good friends at college, till they start to get a sense of themselves in the world. and waiting those couple of years will make a huge difference to that child. Still gonna be devastating to them, but not nearly as devastating as the moment they leave for school. You know, because there's also the implication that

not only they don't have a stable home, but that they that in a way their presence out of the home has caused the break. And so that what that does to children is it makes them feel guilty and it makes them drop out of school to come home with the fantasy that they'll bring the parents together again, that their sickness will bring the parents together. So that's another really bad time. So what are the good times, maybe you'd want to ask me. So what are the good times, Eric?

Four four till about ten, that's a little more stable. Freud used to call those the latency years. It meant not that they're latent, but that they are a little more emotionally stable. It's still important to be sensitive and empathic as you're going through this divorce process, but a little more stable. And then in adolescence from about fifteen to seventeen, make sure you leave at least a year between getting divorced and them going to college, you know, a year to a year and a half so they can get used to the idea. So yeah, those are the

the better times. And then, you know, the best time is when your children are over twenty five and and and they've established themselves out in the world and they have their own homes and their own jobs and their own significant others and they're on the verge of getting married and having their own families. That's probably a more stable time.

Joey Pontarelli (30:42)

One of the challenges a lot of parents face is not knowing how to break the news to their children. And so what's the least damaging way to break the news?

Erica Komisar (30:52)

Don't do it on a holiday or a birthday. don't do it on any anniversary that could be remember it matters when you do it. Don't do it before a big exam. Don't do it before a big soccer game. Yeah. Don't do it in a way because they're gonna remember that date forever. You know, there's lots of parents who do it like, you know, on a holiday. They do it right around Christmas holiday, and that Christmas Christmas is ruined for that child like forever, you know. So do it at a time when you're not gonna

when you have time to process it, like a vacation potentially, where you have a whole week to process it, or maybe in a summer break where there's a lot of time to process it because children aren't running off and going to school and lots of time to go and spend time with them and take long walks and talk with them and and make sure if you can do it together. And when you tell them, make sure that you tell them in such a way that they understand that although you are no longer in love with one another, you care about one another.

And you will never fall out of love with them, that although parents, adults, there's an illusion of unconditional love. The truth is adults can fall out of love with one another, but parents never ever ever fall out of love with their children. Because the assumption in children, particularly young children, is that if you can fall out of love with each other, well then you can fall out of love with them because love is no longer permanent. So make sure that you distinguish the difference between romantic love and love for your children. And then, you know.

Do it in a way where you're asking questions of them and meaning, do you have questions of me? So give them some information. We always say when you're giving children information, give just enough information that it's truthful and honest and sensitive, but not too much, don't overwhelm them with information, but ask for questions. You know, do you have questions about that or where you're gonna live or you know, how it's gonna work, or so.

you know, sort of explore with them if they have any questions and say it's okay if you don't right now if you need to think about it and you can come back and ask us any questions that you have. We may have the answers right now and we may not, but if we don't have the answers, we'll tell you and then we'll come back and give you those answers when we have those answers.

Joey Pontarelli (33:07)

I like the advice you gave too in your book that's if you have older kids and younger kids you might need to talk to them separately or have maybe a more detailed conversation with the older kids. On that note, when you know, a lot of the young people that come to us, their parents split because there was an affair, there was infidelity. How much do you share? How much do you not share? Yeah.

Erica Komisar (33:24)

You don't overshare. I mean, that's another, you know, so I have the top, the hit list of things that parents do wrong and and the ones that they do right. one of the things is oversharing. Don't overshare. don't share your pain with them. There are plenty of good places for you to take your pain, and you need to have buckets to put that pain in. You need to have a therapist, you need to have good friends that you can trust, you need to have extended family, you need to have places you can go.

And to talk and communicate and express your feelings and get support and comfort, but that is not coming from your children. So don't overshare with your children. Containment is the word. As parents going through a divorce, it's very important that you can contain your pain and bring it to the proper place, but not leak all over you.

Joey Pontarelli (34:12)

Children. That's really helpful. There's one situation, Eric, I'm thinking of where unfortunately dad is an addict and he's greatly impacting how I think that's a 13 year old daughter views mom. And so one of the questions that came up from mom and the family is like, how much do we counter that? Like obviously it's not wise in that situation to fight fire with fire.

Erica Komisar (34:37)

No it isn't.

Joey Pontarelli (34:37)

But like, what do you what do you do in that situation when maybe one parent's, you know, just spewing

Hate and

Erica Komisar (34:43)

Alien it's

called alienation. It's not only oversharing, it's a little bit of alienation. Alienation isn't just physical alienation, it's emotional alienation. So when you bad talk the other parent, what you're doing is you're you're alienating that child from one of the parents. Remember that child needs both parents and needs to be able to love both parents and needs to be able to make their own decisions about so can you control the other parent? No, but you can you can be your best self.

The the thing about divorce is you can't necessarily control the other partner, but you can be your best self. So what would it mean to be your best self in that situation? It would mean that you ask your child what it's like for them to have their, in this case, their dad speak badly about mom. How is that? That must be so hard. You know, it's you know, divorces are really hard and people are in a lot of pain. And sometimes when they're in pain, they'll share their pain with their children. So

I I wonder what it's like for you to hear your dad talk like that about me. And you just you become a good listener. You know, we we say God gave you two ears and one mouth. You're supposed to listen twice as much as you talk. So the I idea is to be able to listen to to their pain and be empathic and say, that must be hard. I hear you. You know, is there anything I can do? But you do not know, you do not fight fire with fire. Absolutely not.

Joey Pontarelli (36:04)

Yeah. No, that that's helpful 'cause I think it's a real temptation to try to v assign blame and it seems to be a very fruitless thing.

Erica Komisar (36:10)

Contain

think containment. Contain when you have a bad situation, you wanna contain it. You don't want to throw gasoline on the phone.

Joey Pontarelli (36:19)

Yeah. And I think what I've seen over the years is eventually the children kind of become very good at recognizing, okay, this parent's like kind of off the rocker. This one's been very stable and secure. And you do tend toward that parent who's You do. Yeah.

Erica Komisar (36:34)

You do and they do.

Joey Pontarelli (36:36)

So maybe just a waiting game into some respects. So you mentioned that

Erica Komisar (36:40)

Faith and it's not just faith in God, it's faith that your love for your children and your emotional health and security will win out. And it's not a winning and losing, but in this case what you're winning is you're winning your children's love and respect. That's what you're winning.

Joey Pontarelli (36:56)

If you know someone whose parents are separated or divorced, or maybe they're in the middle of the process right now, you probably want to help, but you're not quite sure what to do or say in order to help them. And if so, you're not alone. It's a really common struggle. That's why we created our free guide: 10 tips to help someone whose parents are separating or divorcing. It offers really practical, tactical things that you can do or say to help them, and especially to help them feel less alone, the top things to avoid saying or doing that might cause harm, and then what they need the most from you.

during this time. But most of all, the guide helps you feel competent and confident in offering help. And so get the free guide at restoredministry.com slash ten tips, restored ministry dot com slash ten tips, either the number or the letters, or just click on the link in the show notes. You mentioned that there's kind of a a checklist of items that parents need to avoid. And so I'm curious what were some of the other things we can't go too deep into them, but what are some of the other things that you advise parents to avoid?

Erica Komisar (37:48)

Using your children as a messenger, that's a very common thing. You know, when parents don't communicate well, they tend to use their children as messengers. And you don't want to do that. You don't want to overshare, as I said, pain, but also sexual information, anything. You don't want to share information about affairs or, you know, you want to be your best adult self. And again, the word containment comes to mind.

Yeah, I mean I would say those are the big ones, sort of not splitting the baby, not alienating, being very careful about how you talk about that other parent. That I think the expression was if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all. And so I don't know why we've lost that, other than the golden rule, which is treat others as you would hope to be treated. The most important golden rule is that if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all.

And be a good listener with your children. The most important thing is when your children come back from the other parent, they can often be dysregulated and the transition is very hard. Don't react hysterically to that because parents get into hysterical states and they'll call me and say, my God, my child is and I say it's normal for children to have an emotional reaction, particularly if there's too much transition. Children don't like transition.

They don't like it. This is why two, two, three should be thrown out of courts. And any parent is listening to this who has the ear of their ex say, let's figure out a solution that doesn't, that isn't a disruptor to our children's emotional health. This too many transitions back and forth and back and forth and back. It's too much for children. And so you're more likely going to get a child who is dysregulated and develops symptoms because of that.

And so the better situation is to have a stable custodial home while still having 50-50 decision making, 50-50 access. So again, giving your spouse access to come walk your children to school and pick them up from school and take them to dinner and take them back to their apartment or house for for dinner or doing their homework or but then bringing them home if they want to come home. Now sometimes children will find I want to stay at daddy's and that's okay too.

The idea of flexibility, you know, we say that parents that are inflexible cause children a great deal of damage. Although structure is very important to divorces, if you are inflexible, it's very, very painful for children. And an example of that is, you know, if a parent has a schedule that they're supposed to keep to, but the child says, but

You know, I I wanna stay at daddy's tonight or I would like to stay at mommy's tonight. I'm really tired. For that parent to say, you know what, that's okay. I understand you had a hard day. I'll come get you tomorrow. Instead of saying, This is my day, you're coming to my house, getting on the phone with the ex spouse and saying, This is my time, mine. This is this damages children. you know, we say

A hardwood tree, we just had a big storm up here in Connecticut, a hardwood tree in a big storm is more likely to break than a softwood tree, because softwood bends, right? So we say an ego that is flexible is a healthier ego than a rigid ego. And so the ability to be flexible and do what's best for your children, even flexibility in in arrangements of custody, if your spouse, ex spouse says, I gotta go on a business trip.

For you to say, you know what, I'll take It's okay. Don't worry about it. And maybe when I have to go away, you'll take them when it's not your time. The flexibility and the working teamwork, working relationship. That's what's best for children. When parents get rigid, when they get sort of possessive, these are really bad for these are bad things for children.

Joey Pontarelli (41:43)

Yeah, I couldn't couldn't agree more. You mentioned the idea of emotional regulation. How do you teach young children or even teenagers emotional regulation? Wait, what's maybe like one tip, the best tip that parents can use?

Erica Komisar (41:55)

Be regulated yourself. That's the best tip I I can use is if you can regulate your own emotions. If you don't leak, if you are contained with your emotions, then you can help your child by being calm, by being empathic, by being sensitive, by listening. that's the best way to help your child to regulate their emotions. Usually dysregulated children are children of dysregulated parents.

Joey Pontarelli (42:21)

So good. No, I appreciate that. And just anecdotally, what I've seen with the young people we work with is that probably the most damaging situation, aside from abuse in those extreme situations, is when a parent turns a child into an emotional confidant, the whole spacification idea. So just to double down on what you said, it's just so damaging and it feels good in the moment. The child even feels like they're being helpful, but over the long run we just see it wrecks the relationship.

Erica Komisar (42:46)

Yeah, when children are parentified, you know, it what what often happens too is I'll add another thing, which is the the asymmetry can affect children if one parent moves on emotionally and romantically and the other doesn't. The asymmetry affects children, so that's something to watch out for too. Children feel guilty when their parents are left alone, when they're going to a parent in a step parent's house and

And so it's very important that you disavow them of that and you express that you're okay and that you, you know, you have a full life and you have friends and you are dating and and they don't have to worry about you because children tend to feel guilty and worry about the parent that they're not with.

Joey Pontarelli (43:29)

Especially on holidays, I've noticed with myself or with the young people we serve, it's like you feel so guilty leaving alone or leaving dad alone going to the other side. And so I I really appreciate you you saying that. to a young person listening right now who might want to share this episode, Erica, with their mom or their dad, but might not know how to go about doing that, what would you say? How how might they get that in their into their hands and encourage them to listen?

Erica Komisar (43:52)

I would say to say that it's helped you and that you're hoping it helps them, that this that listening to this podcast has helped you a lot and that you're hoping that it improves the relationship with them and helps them too. And it would mean a lot to you to have them listen to.

Joey Pontarelli (44:06)

Erica, how can people follow you online, get your book and what else do you offer? So

Erica Komisar (44:11)

You

can reach me at www.comisar K O I S A R dot com and you can see all the things I've written and all the podcasts I've been on and and you can also buy my books. There's a a place that you can also get in contact with me if you want to make an appointment. and I'm on Instagram and I'm on, you know, on Twitter and so I guess X. And so yeah, you can also follow me on social media.

Joey Pontarelli (44:37)

Amazing.

It's been so good talking with you. Thank you for the good work that you're doing. And I want to give you the the final word. What final advice or encouragement would you offer to divorce or divorcing parents?

Erica Komisar (44:48)

You know, I would say being your best adult self and even if your partner isn't, that in the long run by just being your best self because you can only control yourself, you can't control another person, and putting your children first, sacrifice goes a long way in terms of emotional health and what can feel painful to you in the short run may be better for your children in the long run.

Joey Pontarelli (45:18)

That wraps up this episode of this podcast has helped you. Feel free to subscribe and rate or review the show. You'll avoid missing future episodes and help us reach more people. And in closing, always remember you are not doomed to repeat your family's dysfunction. You can break that cycle and build a better life. And we are here to help. And keep in mind the words of C.S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.