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#018: The Dating Blueprint: What Women Want But Won't Tell Men | Jason Evert

Men are rarely given advice on how to pursue a woman. In fact, they're usually just told what not to do. In this episode, author and speaker Jason Evert gives practical advice based on his new book The Dating Blueprint.

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Men are rarely given advice on how to pursue a woman. In fact, they're usually just told what not to do.

In this episode, author and speaker Jason Evert gives practical advice based on his new book The Dating Blueprint: 

  • Answers from 1,000 women about how they want to be pursued

  • The #1 vice women want men to overcome before dating them

  • How to break up with a woman

  • How to know if "she's the one"

  • How to guard your love and make it strong

Plus, enter our random giveaway to win The Dating Blueprint book! We’re giving away three. Details at the end of the episode.

Buy the Book

The Dating Blueprint: What She Wants You to Know About Dating, But Will Never Tell You

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Men this episode is for you. There's a lot of confusion. When it comes to dating, pursuing a woman and building love. We may not know what she wants or how to go about it all the right way. And often we're told what not to do, but nobody tells us what to do. But thankfully, my guest today has answers for you is practical, concrete advice on dating.

My guess is Jason Everett. And he wrote a book called the dating blueprint. What she wants you to know about dating, but will never tell you he asks over a hundred thousand women who follow him on social media. The following questions. He said, how would you want to be asked out on a date? How would you not want to be asked out on a date?

What habits or vices would you want a man to overcome before he dates you? If he's not interested in continuing the relationship, how do you want him to communicate that to you? And other questions like that, and over a thousand women responded and left more than 30,000 words of feedback, Jason sifted through it all.

And he compiled it into the book that we're gonna talk about in this episode. And so what we're gonna do for you is we're gonna pull out some of the wisdom in it to help you. We talk about how can a man know if she's the one, how should a guy ask her out on a date? How to guard your love and make it strong.

And what do you do if your woman has made a lot of mistakes in the past, and that kind of haunts you, Jason even shares how he and his wife Lina have dealt with the effects of her broken home, on their marriage. She comes from a broken family. So he opens up about that too. And by the end, you'll have really solid at dating advice and advice for building the love that we all long for.

And my hope is that you'll feel even more confident in pursuing women. We're also gonna do a random book giveaway. We're gonna give away three of the dating blueprint books, and I'll tell you more about at the end. So lots of good stuff ahead. Keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you cope, heal, and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce or separation. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host joy Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 18 and we're in the middle of our love and relationship series. Research shows that the biggest effect from our parents' divorce is on our romantic relationships.

Why is that? Because we don't have a roadmap for love. We've seen a broken model of love and marriage. And so when it's our turn, we feel lost in struggle in numerous ways in our relationships. So we're bringing you a roadmap, actionable tips and expert advice on how to find and build authentic. Love a little about my guess.

Jason Everett has spoken on six continents over 1 million people about love, relationships and sexuality with his wife, Lina, they have authored more than 15 books, including how to find your soulmate without losing your soul pure manhood. And if you really loved me, Jason earned a master's degree in theology and undergraduate degrees in counseling and theology with a minor in philosophy at Franciscan university of Steuben.

Jason and his wife are frequent guests on radio shows throughout the country and their TV appearances include Fox news, MSNBC, the BBC and EWTN, Jason and Chris were married in 2003 and they have a really beautiful family. And before we dive into the conversation, I wanna say to everyone listening who isn't religious, I know we have a lot of listeners who aren't religious and I'm so happy that you're here.

I just wanna say that, uh, Jason is Christian, he's a Catholic Christian. And so he does talk about God and faith in this interview. Uh, but even without those parts of the episode, you are still gonna get a lot out of it. And so if you can keep an open mind, keep listening. Here's my conversation with Jason, Jason, thanks so much for coming on the show.

It's an honored to have you. Well, thanks for having me on looking forward to it. Let's dive right in. Before we get to the content of the book, I wanted to ask you what inspired this book? What did what'd you. Well years ago, we had written a book for single young women called how to find your soulmate without losing your soul.

And, uh, it did real well for the women. They loved it. And, you know, requests started to come in. Well, where's the book for guys. Where's the book for guys. And I, you know, I kept saying, well, guys, don't read, you know, so that's not an issue, but they kept bugging me like, no, you know, we're literate. We read.

And so I figured, okay, we, we gotta do this. And so I started writing the book and got to the point of feeling a bit of a writer's block halfway through of like, I feel this is missing something like it's missing its soul. I realized what it was is that I was just giving the guys a bunch of dating advice, but they don't care what I really have to say.

They wanna know what the women think about dating. So I figured, well, I looked on our social media analytics and we had about a hundred thousand single women following us on social media. So I thought, Hey, I'm gonna tap into their wisdom. And so told them, Hey, we're writing this book for guys on, on dating and dating etiquette.

And, and I just wanna know from you women. How would you want a guy to ask you out on a date? How do you not wanna be asked out on a date? You know, how about when it's time to break up? How do you want him to communicate that to you? Uh, in a way that's clear without ghosting you. And then, so I just said, Hey, leave your comments below.

And we'll integrate that into the book. And like, boy, I mean, the floodgates opened, I mean, women submitted more than 30,000 words of feedback, which is longer than the whole book was at that point, but it was just gold. Uh, the, the advice and the tips that they gave, just so incredibly useful for men who just want concrete, specific guidelines, but oftentimes the women, Fields's not their place.

To give that feedback to the guys. I figured, Hey girls, you tell me, and then I'll tell the guys and I'll stand in the breach and we'll make sure that they get this information. And, uh, and that's what the book ended up being love. It, love it. It's so needed. And, uh, I've read the book in preparing for the interview and it's, it's such actionable stuff.

This is not kind of abstract thought. This is really practical advice. Yeah. I, I wanted to keep it, you know, cuz men don't do not do well. And with abstract general principles, I mean just, just give us the specifics, the blueprint, what is it we need to do, and then we can do it. And a lot of this stuff, I mean, you just hear it once and you can remember for the rest of your life.

Oh, okay. I need to make sure not to do that. Like, you know, I, I was asking the girls like, where do you wanna go on a date, not go on a date. And universally, the women did not want a man to ask them out to go to the movies on a first date. They said, that's a horrible first date. Cause the whole point of a first date is really get to know each other better and spend that time together.

And it's really kind of hard to get to know some guy when you're sitting in silence. Staring at a screen for two hours together, go to a movie on a third or fourth date. Great. First or second date. No way. And so if a guy hears something like that, it's like, okay, like you said, actionable items. I can do that.

I can come up with a different idea than a movie on a first date. What's your hope for the men who read it? What's the outcome or the result that you want for them? Well, you know, I want them to realize first and foremost, like marriage preparation is not something that begins when you get engaged. Uh, this begins long before you even start dating the woman.

And so this isn't just a blueprint on how to ask her out and get her to say yes and have a fun date. This is like, are you even ready to date? How do you know, it's the right time? How do you know it's the right girl? You know, are you prepared, you know, to enter into romantic relationship, to take care of this girl's heart and her soul and her body.

Yeah. To really do that introspection and, you know, look into your heart, take a real sober assessment of, you know, is there junk in my life that I really should root out before I embark on what could be the beginning of my vocation. And so encouraging the guys to do that and taking that deep look and then giving them the specifics and then not just how to ask her out, but how to keep that relationship strong and then how to continue to date God willing, even in your marriage.

I think it's fair to say. I think anyone listening would say that there's been a real crisis of masculinity in our culture. And so just curious from your point of view, what do you think has happened to men in our culture? Well, Thomas Aquinas gave a definition of a FY in one of his writings. And now by a FY, he does not mean femininity.

And he does not mean homosexuality. He's talking about a FY, which is to be emasculated. And his definition of that is that when a man refuses to let go of that, which is pleasurable in order to pursue what is arduous or difficult. And so what is it out there that's really enticing men to let go of what's pleasurable in order to pursue what's perhaps difficult or arduous?

I would say the most biggest thing that's making men a feminine is pornography because we are getting emasculated. By the millions, essentially being trained that a woman should be valued by how much lust she generates in me. And if I'm bored and I'm lonely and I'm angrier, I'm stressed or I'm tired.

Well, I can just go to porn to get my fix. And so men effectively or emotionally are not maturing at the rate that they should be where you're having a guy who's 25 years old and he can't even ask a girl out face to face. He doesn't wanna look her in the eyes. He'd rather be home playing video games or looking at pornography on a cell phone.

And so, you know, 50, 60 years ago, men were grown up a lot faster. I mean, my grandpa at the age of 20. Was flying a world war II, you know, airplane deliberately into thunderstorms to avoid Japanese enemy aircraft. I mean, at the age of 20, I was playing ultimate Frisbee in college. I mean, it was a very different scenario.

And so they grew up a lot faster because of those trials. And I think, unfortunately, what's happening today. You look at the porn statistics since coronavirus hit. And, you know, I saw the numbers just for Italy and through the roof. I mean, once they did the quarantine, the poor numbers skyrocketed, I mean, do we even know what to do when we're bored and have extra time on our hands?

Or if we're stressed out or life is difficult, do we just run to using women as our fix? And I think that's what pornography has done and emasculating men, I've heard you talk about comparing that to the one child policy in China. And I, I think it's so accurate. Would you talk about that analogy a little bit?

Yeah. Well, in China for decades, they've had the one child policy that, you know, you can only have one kid, uh, because they wanna control population. And so their way of doing that is telling you, you can't have more than one kid. If you have a second kid, not only will we find you and, you know, deprive that.

Education, uh, we will find your coworkers. We will dock their pay if you have a second kid. So you will punish all of their families if you're irresponsible and having a second kid. And so what's happening is a lot of these families are only having one kid, but they're having only the male child, because that can carry on the family name.

It's more, you know, financially productive and honorable or whatever to have a boy. And so the girls are all getting aborted and have been for a very long time, much more disproportionately than the male babies. And so what you're having now is now these male babies are all grown up. They're looking for a spouse and she's not there cuz she was aborted 22 years ago or whatever.

And I think pornography is having the opposite effect in America where there's plenty of young adult, single devout women wanting to start a vocation. And the men are nowhere in sight. They're in their mom's basement playing video games, you know, at the age of 26 or whatever, you know, and that that's not to say that men are the only ones impacted by pornography.

Many and many women struggle with this as well. It's not just a lust, isn't a guy problem. It's a human problem. But precisely because more men historically have been into this stuff, we've seen the effects play out more fully than we have with the females who are now beginning to struggle with it. Cause a lot of girls think, okay.

You know, look at the stuff first out of curiosity of, well, what do I need to look like and who do I need to be? And what do I need to do? And how do I need to act in the bedroom? But they don't realize that women weren't created to be porn. They were created to be loved. And so it, it, we owe it as men and women to get rid of this junk so we can be free to love.

Couldn't agree. More. One of the questions you asked the women is what is the number one fault that you would want a man to root out of his life before he enters a, a dating relationship and their answer was pornography. What else did they say? Yeah, I mean, we got some funny responses there. I remember, you know, we asked him, what's the one thing you want a guy to stop doing in his life before he dates you?

One girl said, well, not take your ex-girlfriend to the duck pond. I'm like, okay. I'm like, alright, I'll make a mental note of not taking, ex-girlfriends do a duck pond, but you know, other things. You know, excessive gaming or laziness or pride alcohol, things like that. But pornography four times to one, uh, was the number one response from the women.

Like, get that outta your life. Before you even ask me on a date, look, you can have your pixels. Or you can have a person, but you can't have both pick what you want. You know, if you really want me, you really want a girlfriend, then not only break your porn habit, but heal from its effects as well, because it's a mistake to think, okay.

I haven't looked at porn in a month. I'm good. But that's like, if I stabbed you, you know, the big piece of rebar and I pulled that outta your guts. And I think, okay, the rebars out of your stomach, you're okay. Now it's like, well, no, you're not okay. There's a gaping hole in my stomach. And my intestines are halfway out.

Like I'm not healed because the wound has been pulled out. Because, you know, the damage in the scar tissue remain. And so we've gotta be able to take some time and heal from the effects of pornography to retrain our imagination and self mastery so that we can be free to love. And this is stuff we should do before asking a girl out.

Instead of treating her like a, she's a prude. If she doesn't allow us to look at pornography during the relationship, because, Hey, that's just what guys do, you know, that's not true fidelity. It's cheating. And to a man who may be thinking, I'll get this outta my life. Eventually I don't need to do it. Now.

Marriage is five years away, 10 years away. What would you say to him? Why is it important for men to eliminate those vices now and to start healing from their effects? Well, one is that the longer you stay involved in a porn habit, masturbation, whatever the deeper, those hooks sink into you, it's not like it's gonna get easier to break free as you get older.

I mean, that's the, the lie the devil tells us, oh, well, you know, eventually this will just go away. You know, just let's deal with it tomorrow. Well, tomorrow's kind of full, let let's deal with it next month or next year, next decade or presidency or whatever. It's like, no. Now, now is the moment of salvation.

Now you've gotta act. And so one is just the sense of urgency. It's only gonna get more difficult the longer you hang on. and then secondly, like you're really clogging up your love life with something that's bogus because you know what, if you think, oh, well, I'll be ready to settle down. In two years, five years, the punishment of certain sins is the pleasure you get from them.

And I know that sounds kind of weird, uh, because like some people think, well, aids is a punishment for promiscuity. Well, so. The pleasure you get from these addictions is the punishment in itself because it gets you hooked on something that, you know, it seems to bring temporary satisfaction or relief, but does not meet your deeper needs.

And so you keep end up going back for another hit and another hit, but you're not really satisfied. You don't experience the joy of authentic human love, which is what God wants to give to you because you're too busy binging and basically eating out of a dumpster instead of enjoying the buffet of steak and lobster tail that God wants to give to you.

And yeah, real love is demanding. It's much more difficult than pornography because with porn. She's got no demands. She has no needs. She doesn't need you to hold a conversation with her. She can't reject you. She doesn't have problems she's instantly and constantly sexually available whenever you want.

She's completely disposable. And as soon as you get bored with her, you go to the next flawless supermodel. And so it, it just makes us slops when it comes to real love. It just makes us so lazy and soft belly and weak because it's all about us. And if you think you can just flip a light switch and transition from complete self gratification and selfishness to selfless, sacrificial, love your in for a big surprise.

It's almost like, imagine you get Tom Brady and man, like, dude, that guy knows how to throw a football, you know, but let's say, okay, starting the game tomorrow, you have to throw left handed. I mean, he might not be able to throw the ball 15 yards down the field with any precision whatsoever. If he's now having to retrain his brain on such a drastic level.

And it's the same thing when it comes to switching from lust to love, we've gotta learn how to do that now, instead of when our future spouse walks into our life, and then we are far from prepared for her. In the book you give some really practical tips on how to overcome vices, such as pornography. I, we can't get into all of them, but would you give us one or two tips?

Well, one thing I would say is don't go lone ranger, you know, don't think, okay, well, you know, I got this, I'll conquer this on my own. I mean, you're gonna fall flat on your face. You need accountability. So one thing I recommend is called covenant eyes and, uh, covenant eyes. If you go to their website and just type in the, uh, promo code chastity, they'll give it to you for a month for free.

And that'll not only block pornographic content, but it'll send your accountability partner or report. Of what you've been looking at, so that you're not on your own, that he knows when you mess up and you can call you on and, and you think twice about clicking a site when, you know, somebody can see that, that that's what you're into.

And so you've got that accountability. A second thing I would try to do is that, you know, even if you don't have a computer on you, it doesn't mean that you're not gonna have any temptations. I mean, what about that woman jogging down the street? What about the girl working next to you in the gym? You know, what about, uh, you know, when you're at church and like, you have a thought of lust from two years ago and like where the heck did that thought come from?

Or you're just getting ready to go to bed and imagination start stirring. What's your strategy in those moments? Most people don't have a strategy. It's just like, well, uh, I don't know, but we have to be prepared. And so one thing that I would say is, you know, just stop and trace the little sign of the cross on your forehead, you know?

And the first part of the cross is up. So GRA think of that as a prayer of gratitude, you could think God for the beauty that he gave to that person. And the second part of the cross goes down, that could be like contrition, you know where you're God, I'm sorry. For the times I have not looked. Upon your daughters, you know, creating me a clean heart.

And so you're asking for forgiveness and for purification, then the cross comes up and it goes off to the side and that's like, now you're looking over to her, you know, or that source of temptation of like, maybe if it's a pornographic flashback, where is she right now? Like, is she, I mean, she's just human being, is she, you know, trying to get outta the porn industry?

Did she have an abortion last week? You know, is she struggling as a single mom to make ends meet and is doing this on the side? Like, or is she, um, been sex trafficked? You know, is she a human slave? Basically that ended up online. Like this is a human person. This is your sister in humanity. Let's pray for her.

And so you're transforming temptation into intercession. And then the final part of the cross kind of moves away from her to the other side of the source of her beauty, which is God. And because the devil didn't invent the human form, that's God's idea and all beauty comes from him. And so I think the beauty of others can lead us into maybe a prayer of adoration and the beauty that God possesses.

And so this is a little anecdote that you could use. If you don't remember all four points, it's fine. Just do one or two of them, but you just gotta make sure you have a game plan, uh, that you're not repressing and stuffing your desires. Like, oh, desires are bad. Sexual desires are all evil. It it's like, well, no.

I mean, passion is a good thing. Sexual desire is a good thing, but it's lust that pollutes it and wars it. And that's when you take the person's sexual value and you place it above their personal value. And so what love tries to do is arrange that rightly where you're valuing them as a human person, instead of a commodity for your own sexual gratification, that makes so much sense.

It's almost as if we're so focused on the body that we're missing the person. Yeah. Yeah. And, and that's, that's the thing with pornography. I mean, the, the porn stars, they're the focus of all of the attention and yet they're completely ignored. And so they're getting all this attention, but like, you don't know where she's at in life.

You don't know what's going on with her. If the porn industry really revealed too much, it would go out of business because if it really revealed, oh yeah, miss September. Yeah, she was molested when she was 12 and she was raped when she was 18. And right now she is addicted, um, to cocaine and, uh, she is an alcoholic and, you know, she has two kids and she's had three abortions.

And that porn video that you saw last week. Yeah. She actually did conceive a child during that porn video who was aborted, you know, eight months ago. like, okay, what man on earth, no matter how depraved your struggles may be, would take delight in watching that movie. If you were fully revealed the woman, you know, and all of her humanity instead of just her body parts.

And so our job is to clothe these women, uh, with, with dignity and with their personhood again. And there's so much freedom in that. And we'll talk about freedom in a little bit, but one of the things that you had said in the past that really helped me break free from pornography, uh, years ago was that you really need a greater desire to overcome a strong desire.

So if you have a strong desire to look at pornography, you need a greater desire to overcome it. And so find that desire, guys, everyone listening, find that desire, whatever it may be, you you're probably gonna have to dig for that a bit. It may not be obvious and you may not have seen good examples of what love is supposed to even look like.

So you may not even be motivated to do that, to, to find love, to build love that lasts, but spend some time with that find that greater desire that will help you overcome. The lesser desire, anything to add to that. Yeah. And you know, in terms of what is that desire? Is it your love for God love for a future spouse love for your future children?

I mean, you think is any, you know, maybe there's a guy out there listening right now. Who's, you know, 23 years old or whatever you gotta think. Okay. Where do I wanna be 10 years from now? Do I really wanna be a 33 year old porn addict? Who's gotta slap my laptop shut when my five year old daughter walks the room, cuz she can't see what dad's seeing.

Like no man wants to be that man. And so well, let's start now. Then let's use motivation for love of my future children, love of my spouse. Uh, you know, cuz you'd think like what. Dad would bring his child. Like if he struggled with pornography would bring that kid into an adult bookstore and be like, why don't you just kind of sit over here in the waiting room while I shop around for a little bit and just try not to look at too much on the shelves.

I'll be back in a minute, sweetheart. I mean, you would never bring her into that. I mean like my gosh, I mean, yeah, you wouldn't even let her sit in the car in the parking lot. Well, but we're doing something worse as fathers. If we're struggling with pornography or husbands, we're bringing it into our own house.

And, and, and so we have to be the gatekeepers in a sense, but we're leaving the barn door wide open for evil to plunder our entire kingdom because we don't have control over our of ourselves. And so we've gotta take this thing seriously, cuz our entire vocation could be at stake. One of the things when I was engaged and dating my now wife, one of the things that helped me to just keep our relationship pure was borrowing a tip from sports psychology, actually in sports psychology.

When you're in a, you know, nerve wracking situation, you wanna have two or three things you could think of to give you confidence. So you think of situations where you were, you know, in a tough situation, but you succeeded. And for me, I had three really vivid images in my mind of why I wanted to be pure.

And that really helped me because one of them was having a baby girl. How would I want someone to treat her. And so to, to all the guys listening, that's something I would definitely recommend to. It helps to have a really vivid, visual reminder that you can quickly pull up if you're in a moment of temptation.

Yeah. Yeah. And that, that way you're not just doing it for yourself, you're doing it for somebody else. Cuz you know, life you, I think his mother Teresa said life is not worth living unless it's lived for others. And so that gives you so much more meaning behind the sacrifice, you know, cuz if you're just, you know, shedding blood for no reason at all, other than just.

You know, self control, you know, sometimes it's easy to lose motivation, but it's like, no, this is for something. This is for the sake of love. This is so I can be free to love and free to be loved shifting to chapter two. So in chapter two, you talk about how you can figure out if she's the one. And so my question, do you, yeah.

How can a man know if she's the one I know if they'll read the book, the guys will get 10 questions asked to know if she's the one, but what do you, uh, explain a little bit about how they can know that? Yeah. Well, I mean, one of the things you gotta do is like, okay, what is it you you're really looking for in, in a future spouse?

You know, do you want, um, are you in a agreement in terms of like the size of a family? Is it in terms of like, does she possess a virtue? Because even if you marry miss universe, But she does not possess virtue. You will have a miserable marriage. Whereas if you marry someone who might not be a miss universe, but you're still attracted to her, but she has virtue.

You're gonna have a happy marriage. And so you really gotta ask, you know, does, does she possess virtue? Is she working on that? It doesn't mean that she's gotta be a Saint, but she at least needs to want. To be one, uh, you've gotta ask yourself to, does she share your faith? You know, hopefully that's something that's important to you and that you're gonna want your kids to be saints.

And is she gonna help you get to heaven? So you've gotta ask that stuff. I mean, you know, does your relationship have a good history, you know, or is it been an emotional roller coaster soap, opera, you know, drama fighting bickering back together, break apart. Because the best indication, the future of relationship is a passive relationship.

And if the past has been pretty darn Rocky, um, that's probably what you have to look forward to for a lifetime, because it's like, well, you know, she's really stressed right now, or I'm really stressed. And so I've done this that, well, trust me, marriage has infinitely more stress than you're gonna have as a singled person dating.

And so you've gotta really take into consideration, you know, are you ready as well? It's not just like, okay, is she ready? Cuz if so, well then I just gotta plug that into my life and we're good to go. You've gotta look into your own life. Am I ready? What do the people who love me think about her? You know, do my parents think that she'd be an awesome spouse or do the people who care about me the most tend to point out some red flags, Hey, you know, keep an eye on this.

You know, that that could be an issue, you know, and I know this is a, this last one's kind of a tough one because it's not up to her. I mean, she, this is beyond her control, but it's almost like a bonus point. If her parents have a strong marriage, it's such a blessing because in an effect, she will have sat in a classroom of authentic love for the first 18 years of her life.

Whereas I, if she was not unfortunately raised in that environment and her parents had a broken relationship, divorce fighting, whatever, you know, it doesn't mean that she's incapable of love or incapable of a happy, wonderful marriage, but it's just gonna be an extra challenge and a sense for her. And maybe for you as she perhaps needs to learn and develop the skills that she never had, the blessing of witnessing.

And so that can be a challenge, you know, but it's not a deal breaker by any extent. I mean, I, I was able to come thanks me to God from parents who still are married today. My wife came from, you know, a very broken family and, uh, you know, but, and she'll be the first to admit, you know, that. You know, creates an uphill struggle when you don't get to see what that interaction is supposed to look like from a husband and a wife.

So, you know, so those are some questions. What guy needs to look at. Not only is this the right girl, but is this even the right time, you know, for her, for me, because even if you find the right girl, it might not be the right time to jump into relationship. You know, maybe she's going to. UCLA next year, and you're going to Louisiana state university, and you're gonna have a long distance relationship, 4,000 miles apart for the next, you know, who knows how many years it can be pretty difficult.

And so you really gotta discern not just is this the right girl, but is this the right time? Love that. I love what you said about virtue two. That being really the main goal of finding a woman who's virtuous. And I know what I've seen in marriages around me is that the more virtuous the spouse is the happier the marriage.

Yeah. And so I think it's really the secret to a happy marriage is find a virtuous spouse, be virtuous yourself. Yeah. It's, it's not much more difficult than that. Marriage is very difficult, but if, if you can both, you know, be pursuing virtue, uh, you're far more likely to have a happy life together to anyone listening, who you maybe discourage because you come from a broken family.

I just wanna say there's so much hope. I know statistically, we're more likely to get divorced. We're more likely to maybe not even get married in the first place, but it is possible. And Jason's wife, uh, Lina, which hopefully will have her on the show at some point. Uh, she proves it and I'm living that out too.

I'm a baby husband, but, uh, I'm, I'm working it out and it's difficult. It's challenging. And like Jason said, you made it to work a little bit harder. You're gonna have to dig into your brokenness and find healing. But it's possible. So don't lose hope. Yeah. And, and that's the key, like if, if there is brokenness in that person's life, are they really willing to face those demons?

Are they really willing to work actively and, and take charge of that part of their life? And like, yeah, I'm gonna go to counseling. I'm gonna pursue this. I wanna work on this. Or just forever making excuses for why they've got other things to do then to really pursue that or dig that deep into those things.

And so you wanna make sure that, you know, they're willing, you know, as you should be as well to do the heavy lifting for some healing that might need to take place. Why is it ideal for man and woman to form a friendship before they started dating relationship? Well, one of the things, when I asked the girls about being asked out, a lot of the girls said, I would just much rather be asked out by a guy who gets to know me as a friend first, because otherwise he could have just as equally asked out my twin sister, simply based upon what we look like.

And we'd rather be asked out because you admire more than our physical appearance. Um, so that's one reason, but a more substantial reason is that, you know, you don't wanna date somebody unless you can see yourself marrying that person. And so that's the, the whole graced season of friendship gives you an opportunity to really get answers.

These questions of like, okay, Yeah, I'm attracted to this girl, but does she, does she really possess virtue or do I just kinda have a crush on her? Cause she's really pretty, um, you know, what type of spouse would this person make? What type of people do they hang out with socially? Does this guy hang out with other guys that are, you know, drinking all the time and vaping and looking at porn?

Well, that tells you a ton about a guy. If that's, who he's choosing as his male companions. And so does this person share your morality or do they just kind of respect and tolerate and put up with your morality? The purpose of friendship is to get answers these questions before you tend to get more clouded in your judgment, by a relationship that may be physically or intimately close, cuz once you get close in those ways, Your objectivity is pretty much shot.

I think back to some relationships where that I've had where their initial attraction was, the physical, you know, she was beautiful. And, uh, we did develop somewhat of a friendship in the dating relationship, but it really was lacking. And when we got to the point where feelings started to fade a bit, it was a struggle.

And so I, I just can't imagine playing that out through years in a marriage, not having that friendship. It's that must be a real cross. Yeah. I mean, cuz you can imagine being married to someone and, and maybe you possess the physical stuff, but you don't have anything else. You know, you don't have mutual admiration and love and respect and all this stuff, the physical stuff, the value of it just tanked because, you know, if you don't have someone that you could have an intellectually stimulating conversation with and, you know, just companionship at the end of the day of just your friendship and spiritual intimacy and all those other things that really are the lifeblood of a marriage, what you're left with is pretty shallow mm-hmm

And so you need to make sure that the choice you're making is not simply because of the physical, because even over the years, the physical itself will fade, you know, and then you're left with what is the value of the choice that you've made. And why did you make that choice? And all of those things will then come to the light.

Really good. You say in the book that you should involve your family and your friends in the decision to, to date, or to enter into a romantic relationship with someone, why is that important? And what advice would you give to someone who comes from a broken family where maybe they can't rely on mom or dad?

They don't have a good relationship. What would you say to them? I remember hearing once that one of the best indication of the health of a female's relationship is what the girls, female friends think about. The guy, meaning, you know, do they think this guy is a creep and he's got a real bad history and he's just bad news for the girl.

If so, that girl better to listen up. Because they're not, you know, wanting her to break up with him so they can poach him off of her and date, date, him themselves. No, that they see some red flags there and they care about their friend and they just want her to be careful with her heart and with her body that she not get ahead of herself and make a bad relationship decision.

So, you know, maybe if your parents are out of the picture, whether it's a pastor, you know, a priest, youth minister, an uncle, an aunt, a best friend, you gotta get input outside of yourself because it is so hard. You know, especially when you get close, it's like reading a book when it's only two inches away from your eyes.

You can't see the text, it's too blurry. It's too close. Those that are more at a distance kind of holding the book can see the text much more clearly. Absolutely. And I've seen people who kind of go it alone and it usually doesn't end so well. And you know, if you think of big O other big decisions in life, like which college you're gonna go to, what job you're gonna take, we usually ask the input of other people.

So I couldn't agree more. It's really, they see things that you don't see. And I remember reading something, uh, when we were writing the soulmate book for the girls, uh, these two guys were having a discussion about, you know, trying to take advantage of women. And they said, well, what you wanna do is try to get her in bed is fast as you can in the relationship, because they said before, she sleeps with you, she's looking for reasons not to sleep with you.

Oh, why? Why should I invest myself in this guy? Why is he worth my time? Why should I do this with him? But they said, look, after you get better with her, she doesn't even ask those questions anymore. The question then becomes, you know, all the positives, like, you know, I need to keep this guy because you know, I've already given my heart to him and he's, they're no longer so critical of the negatives, cuz they're trying to justify why you were worth getting in bed with in the first place.

And obviously these guys are shallow as can be, you know, but, but it, it reveals something true of that. Once you a woman lets a man. Closely to her that, you know, she's not just given her body in many respects. She gives her heart. And then after that choice has been made, sometimes they look for every excuse imaginable to stay in a relationship that frankly is headed nowhere.

But having people outside of the relationship who care about you and love you. Can help you to see things that you might not be able to. I love the backward advice you give to the men about what not to do to date a woman, if you would, would you tell them what that advice is? Yeah, I mean, it's a, it's, it's kind of a fun little section in, in the book and, you know, I, I might as well just read it just cuz I mean it's only a couple paragraphs, but it's kind of fun to go through.

Um, so basically what I said, and now you first you gotta realize that this is all backwards. Okay. So if you wanna understand this, rightly you have to understand this is all inverted logic, but basically what I say is like step one is to incessantly flirt with her while keeping her in the friend zone and the strategy offers you a couple benefits.

First, it gives her the opportunity to ask you out, which is the safest route. You're a modern man liberated from the confines of binary. Gender stereotyping also creates romantic tension cuz she has no idea what you're thinking. This is a good time to show her that you're a true gentleman by asking for revealing pictures.

That way you can get to know her on a more personal level. Now, if she drags her feet. And doesn't ask you out after one or two years, uh, it's time to act decisively and have your friend text her on your behalf and ask for her social media information. Since she couldn't find her on Tinder. Now, if she says, no, you should be persistent, cuz uh, a little cockiness goes a long way, text her and tell her you think she's hot and call her little mama and ask her if she wants to hang out or chill at your place.

After all girls love dark basements, old couches and gaming, you know, hashtag romance. And I said, if, if persistence and poutiness don't do the trick, go public and ask her in the presence of multiple people. Women love being put on the spotlight that and whatever you do, don't say the word date. Um, that's way too clear.

Uh, that could mean rejection for you. And uh, and that's not a risk you really want to take your feelings could get hurt. So you wanna spare your ego. Um, it's all so smart to keeper guessing what your intentions are, cuz this makes you a man of mystery. And then if she asks what the plan is for the date.

I just kind of wanna avoid eye contact and mumble and say, you know, I don't know, what do you wanna do because, uh, indecisiveness is irresistible and a man now, when you pick her up for the date, I mean to hang out, uh, just text her here in all caps to let her know that you've arrived since she's capable of walking to your car alone.

Um, and if the car smells, it's kind of sprints, some masculine smelling body spray all over it, um, you don't have to open doors for her cuz you don't wanna be offender by being too patriarchal and then go to a movie so you can get to know her better sitting in silence for two hours. Um, and then, uh, you know, after the dinner bill gets there, just stare at it with big eyes and slide it over to her and say, I wouldn't pay that much if I were you, you know, just kidding.

Um, that's rude. You can just split the dinner bill. You're already paying for the gas. And then at the, uh, end of the date, you just wanna make sure to, uh, I mean, you deserve a payoff, so try to enter her dwelling and get really pouty or frustrated if she doesn't at least give you a prolonged, passionate kiss.

And then if you're not sure if you ever wanna see her again, um, don't communicate that to her. Just kind of fade into oblivion without communicating her intentions. Moving forward. You wouldn't wanna give her clarity when she can. You know, speculate about it with her girlfriends for the next several weeks.

Um, and if all, all that doesn't work, you know, getting back to seriousness, I say, look, put down your dumb phone, stop hiding behind the screen. Look a girl in the eyes and ask her on a date. You have to face the fear of rejection, like a man, because a woman is worth it. And so all that was basically.

Backwards dating advice of, you know, use the word date. Don't say let's hang out, be clear, be intentional, be chased, uh, be, be deliberate. And look, she owes you nothing for going on a date. The date itself should have been the reward that she was willing to spend that time in your company. And so when it comes to the physical stuff, don't wait for the girl to say, no.

I mean, it's such an UN gentlemanly thing to do to be like, well, you know, as long as she's willing to do it, then I'm okay with it. You know, take some leadership in, in terms of relating this relationship in a way that's pure and godly so that she doesn't have to wake up tomorrow morning. Wondering if she went too far with.

So good. I was cracking up over here, so I love the backward advice. Um, let's flip that around a little bit and you just did, but would you elaborate a little bit more? How should a guy ask a, her out? And I know the whole book is the answer to that question, but if you would play that out a little bit, based on the responses you heard from the women.

Well, one is don't text her out. You can never ask her out over a screen. Very tacky looks cowardly. Um, you know, one girl said the guy's just trying to take the easy way out if he gets rejected. And she said, look, if anything, I'll probably just say no to him. Even if I do wanna go out with him, because he asked me out over a text.

But if a guy asked me person and me not really wanna go out to them, I'd probably just give it a shot. Cause he was confident and up for the challenge. Another woman said she put this really succinctly. She said to the guys, look, she said, let me just say the easier it is to ask a lady out the easier it is for the lady to say no.

so get some guts, ask out face to face. And when you ask out, you have to save the word date. You can't say, hang out, get coffee, chill. No, she has no idea what you're talking about. Like you want to hang out, like, what do you, what do you mean? Like you wanna play Minecraft together? Like what does hanging out to you mean like no date is clear.

They know what you're asking for. If you're asked on a date and so it's making them clear. Um, one girl said, look, being vague. Doesn't exactly. Make a girl go weak at the knees. And so clarity. Don't ask your friends to ask her out, risk it, ask her out face to face, even if you're nervous. That's okay. It, it makes her feel valued that you're willing to take that risk.

Even if you're nervous. One girl said, I can't even imagine being with a guy who won't take any risks and give her advanced notice. Don't be like, want to come over my house tonight? No, give her a couple days, like, Hey, this Saturday, would you want to go out that doesn't work out maybe next weekend? Uh, give her advanced notice plan it.

Don't do this. What do you wanna do? I don't know what you wanna do. Like put some thought into it, make it fun in a, a way that you can talk and have fun together. That's that's the basic premise and there's a million different ways that you could kind of figure out how to do that. And, uh, you know, dating etiquette.

If she says, no, look, it's not the end of the world. Okay. Uh, you've just narrowed down your search for your future spouse by one, take it in stride. And if after a few dates, let's say you don't wanna move forward. Don't ghost her. Don't fall off the faith of the earth. Be clear and be intentional and, and honest with her that might be hard, um, to do, but you know what?

It shows respect for her. Cuz look, a lot of guys can be like straightforward and brave confidence, sincere and honest. When it comes to asking girl out. But can you be straightforward and brave and sincere and honest when it comes to breaking up? Uh, that's much more measure. I think of being a real gentleman, being able to clearly say, Hey, maybe we're not the best match, but I wanted to, you know, be, be open and honest with you that I don't really see this going further.

And I really thank you. And I think you're a great person and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. It might be a painful, difficult conversation for both of you, but let's grow up and be able to have tough conversations. You mentioned ghosting. Let's talk about that. What did the women have to say about ghosting? Oh my gosh.

It, it drives 'em insane. Like one girl said ghosting is basically sending the message that you don't respect someone as a human being enough to have a crucial and hard honest conversation with 'em about how you're feeling. And honestly, if you're not mature enough to talk about your feelings or lack thereof, then maybe you're not ready for relationship whatsoever.

I mean, yeah, it hurts. This girl said, but at least no more. Time's gonna be wasted. You can move, invest it in someone who's invested in you. There's nothing wrong with not liking someone cuz we can't all marry each other. But then if you do let go, one girl said don't pop back in when it's convenient for you and use me as your emotional fidget spinner.

So basically if you break up at least commit to the breakup, but just make it clear either way. Uh, I think one girl just said it best. She said an ending of a relationship should be just as intentional and clear as initiating our first date clarity at the beginning, clarity at the end. Good stuff. You touched on fear and fear holds a lot of men back.

And I think at the root of so much fear is really a false notion of freedom. You mentioned then the book, would you talk about that false notion of freedom? I know one of the things that a lot of guys say is, well, what if someone better comes along? Talk about that. Yeah. Well, I mean, in a sense, yeah, someone better is gonna come along.

It's only a matter of time. That someone more attractive is gonna come along. Someone cuter funnier, more appealing is gonna come along. It might happen next week. It might happen 20 years into your marriage, but somebody more beautiful is gonna come along. Will someone that God has planned for you come along.

You know that that's a different story, you know, because a lot of times we're basing, you know, someone better on some instantaneous attraction versus someone who we can build a life together with because in the end you have to choose. You have to make that decision. But if we're forever being paralyzed with someone better might come along, you're gonna miss the entire boat.

You're gonna miss everything at the end, you have to choose. And we've been sold this false notion of freedom of you don't wanna date, cuz then you're tied down. You don't want kids. You don't want marriage balling chain game over, but this idea. You you're gonna have freedom by living for yourself, but you know, Vatican too is a document, uh, from the church, uh, council they had, and it said that, you know, man only finds himself in the sincere gift of himself that you only find yourself in giving yourself.

And, and so the man who is forever holding back out of fear is not finding himself. He's losing himself. He has become a slave to his fear. He's not liberated as a man. He he's enslaved. And so we, our freedom exists for the sake of love, exists to be given away. Freedom as an end in itself is a myth, you know, I can say, well, you know, I wanna, I wanna be free.

What, what does that mean? I mean, people who join the army are warriors of freedom, but consider how much of their own freedom they give up in order to provide that for others, you know, freedom to them is not the end game. You know, freedom for, for others, for the sake of love to have a free nation. You know, that gift of self is what puts meaning behind their sacrifice.

We often measure freedom by a lack of commitment, but I think like you've said really well, the truest measure of freedom is actually your capacity to love the greater your capacity to love. The more for you are the less your capacity to love the less free that you are. I think this is crucial and probably something we don't talk about enough.

Yeah. Yeah. Cause I mean, if, if, whether it's my anger, my selfishness, my Lu, whatever, what ever inhibits my ability to love it's to that extent that I'm not free. And so someone like, you know, mother Teresa, you know, who would get up in the morning and do her religious prayers and go serve people all day and clean lepers out of people in the gutter and like would devote every moment of their life to others.

She was truly. She's free to love cuz that's what you're, it's not simply what you should do. It's who you are. You're made in the image of likeness of God. God is love. And so all of God's commands pertaining to human love and human sexuality is no, not so much an aught. This is what you ought to do. It's more of an is like, this is who you are.

You know, you are a son of God, you are a daughter of God. And we live in a way that's contrary to that. Dignity of what real love is about, you know, we're not just breaking a rule. I think we're breaking ourselves in the process. You know, we're, we're losing our identity instead of really discovering it.

And what has said life for of a man who just lives for himself. I mean, it's just so tragic to think of a guy who would go through his life, focus on himself, making himself feel good instead of giving himself for others. And I think anyone who's been stuck in the vice of pornography addicted to porn or, or anything else, like you mentioned video games too.

Once you break free of that, Because it is enslaving. You may think it's freeing to be able to look at all that stuff, to be able to play those games whenever you want, however long you want with no one checking in on you, but it really, really is enslaving. And so many people have gone from being enslaved or addicted to freedom can see that it's night and day.

Yeah. And you know, one of the challenges is it's not like the victories one at a certain point in our life. Like I got married, I've made a gift to myself and now I'm free. Like, no, I mean, the demands upon our selfishness are. We're given an opportunity, literally every 15 minutes of like, do I choose for me?

Do I choose for another? And you know, we win some, we lose some, but you know, let's why John Paul II said that love is a constant challenge thrown to us by God. And so that's why we wanna start working on our vices, whether it be self absorption or whatever, prior to marriage, um, or, or whatever vocation that you may be called to so that you can live, you know, as your created love in the book, you tell the men to go all the way with her, but that's not in the way that they may think.

Would you explain that? Yeah. To, to, to have a one night stand to sleep with some girl on prom night or whatever. Like you're really not going all the way. I mean, if, if just to simply have physical intercourse with a woman is not going all the way, it's really hardly going anywhere because you know, there's that song that came out a couple years ago by what's a guy pit bull or M where he is singing.

Like, give me everything tonight for all we know we might not have tomorrow. It's like, yeah, that inspires a lot of confidence. But like, I remember first, all I heard, like give me everything tonight. I'm like, is this a bank robbery? Like, what is he asking for? Like, you know, but give you everything. What's a girl supposed to say that I think she should say, okay, you want everything?

I I'll give you everything. You know, I'll give you my body. I'll give you my heart. I'll give you, I'll give up my last name. I'll give you my children. I'll give you their dirty diapers. I will give you my, you know, nursing home bills when I turn 85, like, I'll give you everything. And you know, at that point, such a man would probably recoil and be like, oh, well, you know, buy everything.

I didn't mean everything. And it's like, well, what did you mean? Well, well, he just wants the body. That's not everything. That's not going every, all the way. Like if a man really loves a woman, he doesn't just give her some pick up lines and a promise ring. You know, he gives her every breath he takes until the day that he dies.

You know, he gives her his bank account, his last name, his address, that's going all the way. And so it's not the church or God that's saying, oh, don't go too far. Don't go too far. It's like, no, we're the ones holding back. We're the ones who are afraid to go all the way, because just grabbing some physical gratification is not going all the way.

You know, it, it's heartily using today's lingo, going to first base, you know, we need to make much more of a gift of ourselves. And that's why sex in marriage is really speaking the truth with your body. Your body is saying, I give myself totally to you. I'm completely yours. And that's true. If you're a husband and a wife, if you're not married and your bodies aren't effect saying I'm all yours.

When in reality that person be, be outta your life two months from now, it's a lie spoken in the language of the body. And so all that God's asking for is sexual honesty that when a man and a woman make love, they should be renewing their wedding vows in the flesh. Once men start a relationship they're pursuing a woman, you say it's so important to guard your love and you give 10 tips in the book.

We don't have time for all of them, but would you share one or two? Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I recommended when it comes to, to guarding love is that make sure that there's emotional space in the relationship that you're not getting emotionally married super fast, uh, in this relationship that, you know, there's, you have interest apart from that relationship, you're not getting emotionally married right away.

Give it, give it some time, uh, when it comes time to like this, the physical aspect I alluded to this earlier, don't wait for the girl to say no. Um, a lot of guys, well, I'm a good guy. I wouldn't force her to do anything. It's like, you don't get points for not forcing a girl to do something against her.

Will, that's your duty. It's not a sign of like your moral quality. And so we need to actually take more of an active role instead of expecting the girl to be the chasy cop. You know, she's the one who says no, and I'm the one who gets to push the envelope and see how far things can go. That's not healthy.

It's not respectful of a woman. And, you know, and ultimately try to keep that relationship chased and pure. You know, avoiding the occasion of sin, you know, practicing chastity as a couple, and this is not gonna drive you apart. I mean, if chastity drives a wedge between you, then it's not love that's there it's lust.

Chastity will divide people who are United in lust, but for those who are unit in love, who actually want to do its best for the other person, chastity will intensify that love and it'll draw them closer to each other. Even if they've made mistakes in the past, they're always capable of starting over.

Would you just give a quick definition of chastity for people who are listening, who have no idea what that is? Yeah, well, chastity is a virtue like courage or honesty that just applies to her sexuality. And the function is to free us from the utilitarian attitude, meaning using someone else as an object for our own gratification.

And so we're all tempted to do this in one way or another. And so what chastity does it doesn't kill our sexual desires. It orders them according to the demands of authentic human love. And so the question would be for a guy practicing chastity. It's not just, okay, I'm not gonna sleep with my girlfriend, cuz maybe it's not good for her to get pregnant right now, but it's like, am I faithful to her with my imagination?

In my speech. Am I respectful in the way I talk about women? What I'm looking at on my cell phone, it's a virtue that encompasses far more than sexual abstinence, uh, to a virtue that really helps to regulate our sexual desires and make sure we're expressing them with love. So it's an integration of desire, not a repression of them.

Cause people think, well, look, I'm either gonna indulge on my desires and make me happy, or I'm gonna repress 'em all and make God happy. You know, which what what's it gonna be? And it's like, well, look, there happens to be another option out there besides indulgence and repression. And that's chastity of realizing, yeah, I've got these desires, you know, God created my sexuality.

It's something good, but I need to master these desires so I can be free to love instead of simply using women as an outlet for my. In the book you touch on how some men find it really difficult. If the woman that they're pursuing has a really dark and broken past, maybe they've made a lot of mistakes.

What advice would you give to men like that? Who are listening right now? Yeah, you know, I mean, it can be tough, you know? Cause my, my wife, she shares openly her testimony. She lost her virginity when she's 15 years old, came from broken family and, and uh, and then she turned her life around and I know a lot of people have reached out to me of like, dude, how do I deal with this?

You know, I have, you I've made some mistakes, but nothing too big. But my, my girlfriend or my fiance has been a lot, these different guys and just a thought of her with those other men just haunts me. And I, I feel like I'm getting bitter towards her or resentful or pouty or whatever. And. You've gotta be able to do something with those things.

Otherwise they're really gonna infect the relationship. And so what we gotta do is like, okay, stop realize she was not unfaithful to you, you know, unless you were dating her at the time and she did these things, she probably didn't even know you back then. And oar, she hardly knew herself back then. These are mistakes.

She probably regrets that she had made, uh, wishes that she had never made those choices. But you play an active role in her healing and her being a new creation that you fall in love with who she is today, not who she was 10 years ago. And so when those thoughts of her, those other guys come to mind, Pray for those guys, pray for their own conversion.

Pray for your, the girl that's with you. Now. Pray for her healing as well. Uh, you know, from maybe some bad experiences in those relationships so that you can play an active role in her healing instead of forever holding this over her head, because you don't save your virginity to get someone else's virginity.

It's not like a give and take kind of thing. Hey, if you could both share that on your wedding night, that's awesome. Unfortunately, a lot of people can't nowadays, uh, cause they've made different choices and so be able to realize, okay, but maybe if she had already lost her virginity, maybe you're still a Virgin.

On your wedding ad, you'll still be experiencing, making love as a sacrament for the very first time. She's never made love as a sacrament. She's had fornication. That's a very different thing than consummating a sacrament together in the state of grace. And so realize that that's an altogether new experience for the both of you to enter into together.

And if you can't let go over past. You know, you really need to work through that or let go of her because she deserves someone in her life who loves her for who she is today. And isn't gonna spend the rest of her life, rubbing her nose in something that she did five years ago. And so it's gonna take some patience on her part.

You gotta be able to talk out and share some of your feelings and be able to work through this. And it's a good test of your love. This is tough. Can we work through this together as a couple and make progress? Is she understanding, is she compassionate? Am I merciful? Am I patient it'll bring some of these virtues or the lack thereof up to the surface.

So you can take a look at that work on it. You mentioned before that marriage is tough. It's not easy. And I've experienced that. I've only been married two years, like I said, at this point, and it's already, it's challenging. I kind of expected it to be like a honeymoon phase for a few years and definitely surprised to find out that it wasn't.

Uh, but it is really good. I don't wanna discount that, but it is hard. And when things get hard in marriage, Just like in any other point in life, it can be tempting for a man to seek out comfort and advice. Like we mentioned pornography or other types of vices, or maybe another woman. And so I just want you to speak into that a little bit.

When a man may be tempted away, maybe he's listening right now. What encouragement would you give to him to stay faithful, to stay strong, to keep fighting for his marriage? Yeah. I mean, one, one of the beauties, you know, of, of having children is that your fidelity extends not just to your spouse, but to all of them as well.

And so, although your relationship with your spouse might be strained and painful and feel dead, you can look into the eyes of those kids and be like, Hey, you know, I feel like I could have an affair on your mom, but I couldn't have an affair on. You know, I couldn't break your heart. Uh, you know, maybe she's broken mind and she's hurt me in this way and that way.

And I wanna get back at her and, you know, I mean, I've heard some horrific stories of pain and marriages, you know, there's a lot of hurt that can be going on there, but, but you know, God, thanks me to God. Sometimes kids keep you in check. You know, they, they hold you accountable just through the innocence of their own eyes and the unconditional love that they always pour upon you.

And so realize that. You know, you, you owe your fidelity to them as well. You know, if, if there aren't kids in the picture, I remember two pastors once for up late discussing, like why does some marriages last really long and some don't and the end answer that was that, Hey, the marriages that last and the couples that are willing to show up and fight for their marriage, when things get tough, that's all, it comes down to not a secret recipe of compatibility, but rather two people who are willing to fight for something good.

You know, when the tough times come and trust me, they're gonna come. A lot of listeners come from broken families. And I know you mentioned before that your wife comes from a broken home. And so as much as you're comfortable with saying, how has that affected your own marriage and how have you guys overcome those challenges?

Well, it's been a challenge cause like, you know, not only did she never had a dad, she never saw a mom interacting with a husband, you know, and because she never had any younger siblings either, so she never saw parenting. So, so she was kind of coming in this thing, you know, I, I think kind of. Hey, you know, this is gonna be great.

You know, now I can have what I never had and it was tough. It's been tough, you know? And, and, and so she and I have been to marriage counseling, you know, and we've done it many times, gone to marriage counseling, try to work through this patch or work through that time. And you know, I'm not ashamed in saying that because, you know, you think of the, the king of any nation or any president or prime minister, they're surrounded by a cabinet of ministers and advisors on different things.

They're not just trying to, I mean, Trump's not trying to figure out. Uh, you know, I'm sure, you know, economically he's a smart businessman, but he's not trying to figure it all out on his own with the coronavirus, when it comes to, you know, international conflict and foreign diplomacy, you know, he's got people around him that he's gotta tap into their advice and hopefully follow it.

And the same goes for any leader of any nation. They need people who specialize in different fields, whether it's the armed forces or economy or whatever. And it's the same thing in marriage. Like you gotta get people that know more than you do and can, can work on it, whether referee with a counselor or heal those deeper wounds.

So just, don't be afraid to be able to go get counseling that you need, instead of thinking that you can figure all out on your own really good. My wife and I have been already, and it's a little bit more preemptive for us. Um, but still there were some struggles in our marriage and we went and it helped.

And we were able to, to move ahead and I'm not pretending that our marriage is perfect at this point, but, um, but it helps so much. And it's someone who has a lot of tools and techniques they can give you to help overcome the conflict or whatever it is that you're struggling with. Yeah. Yeah. And preemptive, it's the best way to go.

I mean, if you can get counseling before you even get married, For your stuff, her stuff, or both your stuff. It's one of the best gifts you could give each other love that Jason, how can people follow you? How can they buy your books, your products, things like that, uh, easiest way is just go to chastity.com.

And if you go to chastity.com, so C H a S T it y.com. It's there that they connect with us on social media, on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, or on all those different platforms. And then, uh, all our books like the dating blueprint book for the guys, or how to find your soulmate without losing your soul for the girls.

All of that is available@chassis.com and we sell stuff in bulk for $3 or less. So people can get these. Boxes at a time if they want to share with their youth groups, their colleges or, or different groups study these things in a group studies setting, um, all that's available@chastity.com. Awesome. We'll throw that in the show notes for you guys, as well as, uh, Jason mentioned before covenant, I we'll throw that in the show notes, so you don't need to remember those.

Jason, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for all the work that you've done. You've been an inspiration to me and a mentor over the years, and so just very grateful for you and everything that you've done. Keep it up. Well, thank you for having me on and, uh, I didn't just ask your listeners to please pray for our marriage or family.

All the people we speak to. And, uh, we'll actually be launching a podcast ourselves in the next two weeks or so. We're gonna be launching that. So if any of your listeners want some more podcasting stuff, we'll have that coming out soon. We'll be announcing it through our social media stuff. Excellent. And we'll throw that in the show notes as well once, uh, once that's up and ready to go.

Well, Hey man, thanks so much for your time. Thanks for having me on God. Bless. Isn't he, the man, Jason is honestly the best speaker that I've ever heard. I know a lot of people who've heard him speak, agree with me on that. And like I mentioned, he has changed my life. He's really helped me in a lot of ways.

I heard him speak when I was 14 and he answered all the questions. I didn't even know I had when I came to love and sexuality. And so we're bringing him back. We're bringing him back next episode to do a show for women. We're gonna talk about the book he and his wife wrote for you ladies, how to find your soul.

Without losing your soul. So make sure to subscribe. So you don't miss out on that. If you wanna buy the dating blueprint for yourself or someone else it's really easy to do. You can go to restored ministry.com/eighteen. Again, that's restored ministry ministries to singular.com. Slash 18 1 8 on that page.

You'll see a link to where you can buy the book either on Jason's website or Amazon, whatever's easier for you. And then go ahead and complete the purchase to get the book. Like I mentioned, at the beginning of the show, we're also doing a random book giveaway. We're gonna give away three of the dating blueprint books.

And so you can enter that giveaway by just joining our email list, go again to ReSTOR ministry.com/eighteen. Scroll down a little bit. You'll see a form where you can put in your name, your email, and just answer a quick question on May 31st, 2020, we'll email everyone to announce the three winners. And if you're already on the email list, don't worry.

You're already entered for the giveaway. And if you wanna go ahead and buy the book, now you can still enter the email list for the random giveaway. Let's say you buy it and you win it. You could always give the extra book away to someone that you. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 18.

Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful, go ahead and subscribe and share this podcast with someone that you know who could use it always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

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#017: 6 Tips to Conquer Your Fear of Love

I felt torn. On one hand, I craved love. On the other, I feared it. Why? Because I didn’t think love could last. I feared my relationship would end the way my parents’ marriage did. Thankfully, that fear no longer controls me.

I felt torn. On one hand, I craved love. On the other, I feared it. Why? Because I didn’t think love could last. I feared my relationship would end the way my parents’ marriage did.

Thankfully, that fear no longer controls me. It took time and intentional effort to overcome it. But by doing so, I felt free to pursue my wife and begin building our marriage.

In this episode, you’ll get:

  • A better understanding of yourself and why you fear love

  • Real life relationship stories and lessons from Miranda and me

  • 6 tips to conquer your fear and find authentic love

Contact Joey: Joey@RestoredMinistry.com

Links & Resources

  • To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

  • Books & Research: [Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links below, your purchase will support Restored. Thank you!]

  • Quotes

    • The Four Loves by C.S. Lewis: “To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything and your heart will be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact you must give it to no one, not even an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements. Lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket, safe, dark, motionless, airless, it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. To love is to be vulnerable.”

    • Speech by John Paul II: “Love is not merely a feeling; it is an act of will that consists of preferring, in a constant manner, the good of others to the good of oneself.”

  • Miranda Rodriguez

    • Episode #008: The Hardest Part of My Life | Miranda Rodriguez

    • Bio: Miranda Rodriguez was born in Caracas, Venezuela. Shortly after, her family moved to North Carolina where she spent most of her childhood. In 2009 she moved to Charleston, SC where she currently resides. Miranda graduated from Clemson University in 2015 with a degree in psychology. She currently works as the office manager for a marketing firm. In her free time, Miranda enjoys spending time with friends, writing, walking on the beach and chasing sunset views.

    • Blog: First Class Act

    • Instagram: @ms.mirandakate

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below. You’ll also get the eBook 5 Practical Tips to Cure Lonelines.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Do relationships make you anxious? Does vulnerability scare you? Are you afraid of love? If so this episode is especially for you. And even if that's not, you, you probably know someone who's dealing with this. And so this episode will help you understand and ultimately help them. And I'll be honest with you.

That was me. I had a crippling fear of love and relationships, and at the root of that fear was a belief that love didn't last. And ultimately I was afraid that my relationship would end the way that my parents marriage did. And so it put me in this odd spot on one hand, I craved love. And on the other hand, I was terrified of it.

I ran from it and I pushed people away. And so after years of struggling with this and learning how to overcome it, I realized that I wasn't alone. I realized that tons of other people dealt with this, especially people like me, people whose parents are separated or divorced. And so that's what this episode is about.

We're gonna talk about the fear of love and how to overcome it. We'll touch on how that fear can leave us feeling stuck and how it can feel like we have no idea what we're doing in relationships. Like we didn't get the training we needed in our families to build a healthy relationship. We're also gonna unpack the fear itself and understand the reasons underneath it.

We talk about how we tend to overanalyze things and how it can be tricky to discern if a relationship is right, because of that fear, that fear clouds, our judgment. We also touch on how a lack of peace in your relationship may not actually mean that it's not meant to be. There may be more to it than that.

And then we touch on how the lies that we believe about love. Often, hold us back by listening to this episode, you're gonna walk away with a better understanding of yourself and why you're afraid of love and relationships. And if that's not, you you'll walk away with a better understanding of someone you love and why they're afraid of.

You'll get six actionable tips to overcome that fear. And ultimately our hope is that by following those tips, you'll lay the foundation for a strong relationship and even a strong future marriage. So lots of good stuff ahead. Keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you cope, heal, and grow after your parents' divorce or separation. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host joy. Elli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 17 and this episode kicks off our love and relationship series. Research shows that the biggest effect from our parents' divorce or separation is on our romantic relationships.

Why is that? Because we don't have a roadmap for love. We've seen a broken model of love and marriage. And so when it's our turn, we feel lost and we struggle in numerous ways in our relationships. And so we're bringing you a roadmap, actionable tips and expert advice that you can follow to find and build authentic love.

Today. I'm joined by Miranda Rodriguez. She came on episode eight. She shared her story of how her parents divorce has affected her and how she's dealt with it. I won't go into a full bio here because she's not here to be a guest to be interviewed, but rather as a contributor, we have a conversation. We go back and forth.

But if you wanna learn more about Miranda, go listen to episode eight, or you can see the show notes. So here's our conversation. Miranda. It's really good to have you back. Thanks for coming on the show. Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me. It's good to be back. I was sitting in a coffee shop some time ago and I overheard the girl next to me talking to one of her friends, a female friend, and they were talking about a guy that they both know a friend of theirs that seemed to have an aversion to love.

He did not wanna even talk about love or relationships, wanted nothing to do with them. And it got me thinking that there's a lot of people like that in our world. A lot of people who are afraid of love, they're afraid of commitment. They're afraid of, um, relationships, vulnerability, all those things. And so it got me thinking about myself, how I've struggled with that too.

There's a lot of reasons for that, but I think at the root of so much of my fear was that I saw my parents' marriage fall apart. And I didn't wanna repeat that. Uh, in fact, I was terrified of repeating that. And so I was afraid that love wouldn't last. I was afraid that someone might love me. And then abandon me or stop wanting me.

And, and I did not want that. And so over the years, just talking with people like us, I've realized that this is a common fear and it certainly goes beyond children of divorce or separation, but I think it is more prominent in people like us. And so I just wanna break down this problem and then we'll go into a solution.

Like what can we do about this to overcome this fear so that we can, um, you know, live the life that we were born to live and find really meaningful and joyful relationships. And so, yeah, really pumped to be talking with you. But yeah, I'm just curious, let's, let's dive into this. What's going on here? What, why are we afraid?

Well, let's unpack this. I think that fear is so it can be so oppressive and yet like weirdly sneaky at the same time in the sense that you can live with this fear, your whole life and not realize. You know that, wow. I actually struggle with fear of love. And I think that, you know, for us who, when, when something so fundamental, like the family, like our parents' marriage is dissolved inherently.

Like the fear establishes that become, we, we internalize it and it becomes part of who we are. And it prevents us from doing like what we are normally called to do, which is to love and to be loved. And so it just goes to show like how important the family and how important, like our parents' marriages are to us, to the kids.

Cause when it doesn't, you know, go the way it's supposed to like their dire severe consequences. And for us, I think a lot of time that is living with this fear, um, that can be just so overwhelming. Absolutely. And it's a good point that we might be walking around with this fear without even realizing it.

I know it took me some time to, to put my finger on it. Was, was that true for you as well? Yeah. I always had a very strong. A version, you know, to men, to men that I liked, especially like, it was just this weird, you know, like wanting their attention and wanting to interact with them, but also just being very terrified and like the smallest thing, um, whether that be like a conversation or, you know, something they did like.

I magnified it and oftentimes turned it into like a red flag, you know? So it's like the most innocent gesture, all of a sudden becomes suspicious. Mm-hmm um, and so that was something, and I, I, I think I noticed it most in high, you know, first in high school, and then it kind of, you know, continued to, to happen in college and after, and then especially my first relationship, I was realizing how difficult it was for me to connect with this person because of this fear and because of how flighty I was, you know, the slightest thing was like, oh my gosh, I need, I need to get out of this.

And just that instinct to run and to find safety, um, and how like that, how difficult that was to find in a relationship. And it wasn't until, you know, I, I started therapy, which, you know, I'm a huge advocate of, um, and she was the one who kind of suggested, like, do you think this could be related to your parents' divorce?

And it, I, it wasn't something that I immediately clicked with me. Uh, didn't not immediately. Resonate. Um, I think we have a tendency to suppress a lot of times these things and we don't, you know, we don't wanna blame, we don't, it's hard for us to accept things that are outside of our control or that people we love could affect us in such a negative way without meaning to, so I think it took time for it to really sink in, but it wasn't until she suggested it, that that kind of process of unpacking, uh, the divorce and how it affected me began.

And I think now, even still, I think it's something I wrestle with, but it's, I would say a lot more, a lot easier to admit that, Hey, like maybe, maybe this is the case than it was, you know, five years ago or whatever. Yeah. I can totally see that and we'll get into more of my background too, but I, I certainly saw the same thing in my first serious relationship.

There was so much fear there even entering into it. And I, again, couldn't put this totally into words at the time. I was very apprehensive, very afraid of going into the relationship to begin with, but then also, you know, being vulnerable within the relationship, committing, opening up to her and she was a really good girl, this isn't because you know, it wasn't because this person was like bad or something like that.

No. And, uh, yeah, I just, it really harmed the relationship. And I think ultimately it was part of the reason that, uh, you know, it, it ended, um, I, I know, you know, I trust that it was meant to be, but, um, it's yeah, certainly has, has affected me in so many ways, but I wanna go back to something that you said seeing your parents' marriage fall apart, you know, was traumatizing and was.

Something that's really difficult and same true. In my case, we often hear people talk about the family. Being the school of love, the place where we learn, how to love we learn what it means to love, and we learn what it means to be in a relationship, both friendships and you know, a serious romantic relationship and marriage.

And, uh, I know when we were talking before the show, we were using the analogy of, uh, pilot, like a 7 37, a big commercial airline pilot. It's like asking someone to be put in charge of piloting this aircraft. Who's never had the training to do it, or maybe has had bad training training from someone who, or from people who, uh, didn't model it the way that it was supposed to be.

Right. And I'm not trying to place blame, but the truth is when a marriage falls apart, that's not what's meant to happen. Right. And so when we're put in these situations where we're expected to love someone else to build our own relationships or own marriages, it can feel truly like we're sitting behind the yolk of a aircraft that we have no idea of what we're doing.

And that should be scary. It is scariness. Okay. To feel afraid. Let's talk about that a little bit. The school of love. We're supposed to learn how to love in the family. Aren't we? Yeah, no, I mean that, that is, I think one of the primary purposes of the family is to learn what it looks like to love and to be loved.

And that's one of the reasons that it's so important and one of how it has so much power, like it can be so detrimental or so beautiful, you know? And I think, yeah, if, if we are not properly educated in the family in how to give and receive love, It's really difficult for us to like go out and live our vocation of marriage or even other vocations, like even friendships.

Like we don't, we're not equipped to love. And it's just, you know, just like you're saying with, with the airplane, like it's something that's so monument a task that is so monumental and risky too. You have to have like the proper. Quote unquote training, you know, and it's something that we learn through watching our parents, like how they love each other and how they love us.

And it's so, you know, one of the reasons why this anxiety is so difficult and so painful is because love is like so inherent to who we are as human beings. Um, and so when we. When there's something like a barrier of sorts that prevents us from being able to live that out. It, it hurts like it's, it's truly traumatic, uh, because it is so inherent to who we are as human beings.

And so when that, in the family, when those relationships, those primal formative relationships are broken, it's a wound that is so difficult, not only because of the hurt and inflicts at the moment, but also how much you, of it, you carry through the rest of your life. Because something that was so innate and that everyone has, you know, inherent right to was kind of taken away.

Then in, later in life, it's like you're walking around. You know, with a crippled leg or something like something that you're supposed to learn and that's supposed to come so naturally to us, all of a sudden, we, we are not equipped to do. We don't know how I think to your point, like, yes, like the family is the school of love.

And when that's, when that's hurt, it's not just like a, oh, well, you know, it hurts now, but then you'll, you're gonna get better. It is something that, unless you face it and you work hard to heal, um, it can seriously get in the way of. Finding love so true. Yeah. And it's possible to learn and to compensate for what we weren't given that we needed.

And we'll get into that a little bit later, but yeah, I think everything you said is spot on because if we don't learn in our families, then it can be more difficult to learn though. It's possible. And one point that, that you made before is that we often, you know, don't know what we don't know, and that ends up being very dangerous, cuz we're going throughout life kind of expecting things to go well, and then we get into a relationship and I've experienced this myself and we're not quite sure how to handle disagreements.

We're not quite sure how to open up. We're not quite sure how to set the right boundaries because if we're honest, we haven't seen a lot of that stuff modeled well for us. And I think it's important to put a caveat here. We're not blaming parents. We're not saying that parents are evil. Um, I think in the majority of cases, parents don't realize the effect that their marriage has on their children.

Yeah. And, uh, they don't realize the effect that a divorce will have on their children either. And so, uh, I have no doubt that my parents never intended to hurt me the way that it did hurt me, but at the same time, we can talk about these things in a way that's factual. We can talk about them in a way that's sharing responsibility.

Uh, you know, that what happened, mattered. It hurt us. And we're trying to take responsibility of what our life is right now and how we can, can move forward. Parents don't know, you know, the ramifications often I think of divorce. Um, even if you're a child of divorce, oftentimes you don't understand, you don't see.

And I think that that's kind of a challenge that we see in our culture today is, uh, how almost trivialized marriage has become, you know, like it's like, oh, well, if it doesn't work out the first time, there's always, you know, you can always meet someone else, uh, later in life or mm-hmm, , you know, there's a lot of skepticism and cynicism today about marriage in the family.

And I think that that's a result of. Of a lot of parents getting divorced. And then, so a lot of us kids like grow up, um, with that example and not understanding how it affected us. And so we're walking around unable to love and scared of it. And so we like a lot of us, I think almost as a culture, have a tendency to like give up on it, you know, mm-hmm, like, it's like, we're scared of it.

Well, we don't know we are, we have this aversion, but we don't realize that we have it. You know, you hear a lot of commentary on millennials and, and trends and you know, there's like a fear of commitment. Um, a lot of times with, with this generation and the generations after. And I, I truly think it's because we.

We are so afraid. Um, because we've learned that just because you make a commitment or you're supposed to make a commitment, that doesn't mean that it will be kept. And when it isn't kept, there are ramifications, it hurts. And so we just say, okay, you know what, it's easier if we just don't do it. Yeah.

Which is too bad. This isn't a stretch. So people who are listening, who maybe hearing this for the first time, I've heard people say this exact thing. In fact, there was a time when I was younger where I said, oh, I'm not getting married. I don't wanna get married. Yes. because I saw the way that things went down and there's a lot of people like that.

And you know, like you're saying, that's resulted to people just kind of having more casual relationships living together. Um, and, but never taking that step to, to get married. And so, yeah, it is certainly a generational problem. I, I think, and there's a lot to it, but, but you made a really good point before about.

How we don't really go underneath that problem. We talk about how, oh, you know, millennials are afraid of commitment. Millennials are afraid of commitment or whatever generation we're talking about. They're afraid of commitment. Um, but when we kinda stop there and that's really a disservice to, uh, to everyone, I think, cuz we need to really uncover what's going on underneath.

Yeah, absolutely. I think understanding the issue is so essential and you know, I don't blame our generation for having like I don't, I don't think you can say, you know, that it's a huge shortcoming in us. I think it's just when things like divorce becomes so, uh, prevalent, it's really hard for us to know, you know, it is like a true handicap.

Um, and that we have to understand like, okay, why is this, why is this happening? And not just stop it. Like, okay, well we have this, oh, well, you know, like it's, it's so important that we face it and try to heal. What, what has happened and not just kinda let it go, I guess, on the psychological side. It's so interesting that when we see our parents' marriage, when we see what they have modeled for us, and if that didn't go well, it's a broken model.

We almost tend to expect the same thing to happen in our lives. And I think that's a lot of what I was dealing with through the years, especially when I started dating seriously, it was almost thinking my story was going to end or could end in a similar way that theirs did. And, uh, it was almost like I was defending against something that I thought was inevitable.

And yes, that, that is not, not good for a relationship. Is it? No. No. And it's so sneaky in that, you know, you are, you are act, it's like you're working against yourself because it's like, you want love, you want to be loved. You want to like be in a relationship and you crave intimacy to be seen, you know, to be held.

but there's this huge part of you. That's like, no, like this is, this is not safe. And so, and a lot of times that that part of you is not vocalized. Like it's not, you can't identify it. And so it's there and it's like sending off alarms, but you don't even realize that the alarm, you know, you don't understand that the, what the alarms are about.

So it's so confusing and just makes dating, especially so tricky and something that, you know, should be more of a fun, um, beautiful, you know, part of life, somewhat like painful yeah. Yeah. We're not really equipped to go about in the way that we should be. It's almost a handicap, like you said, and it makes it really hard for us to live out a good, beautiful, meaningful relationship.

And so we wanna, you know, talk about how, how we can do that, how we can, um, compensate maybe for what we weren't given. How we can build those good habits and how we can really overcome this, this fear of love. And I think, you know, so much of what we've said so far is really uncovering the problem. And I think that's, that's a main starting point.

Just the awareness, just understanding that okay. The way that my relationships have gone down so far, or the anxiety I feel in my relationships has something to do with what happened in my family. And there's so many people who just don't make that connection like we've been seeing. And so, uh, we really need to do that before we get to the solution.

Let's talk a little bit about our experience. So your experience, my experience. And like I said, in my first relationship, you know, I was afraid even to ask her out, to ask her to be my girlfriend. And even when I did. I loved at arm's length. It was really difficult for me to be vulnerable. And during that relationship, I was going through a lot of tough things.

There was, I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life. Kind of figuring out if I wanna get married or go a different route and pretty stressful time. There was a period where I pretty much felt numb for three months. It was kind of a dark time for me. And I really wanted to open up to her about all that, but I just like, couldn't, there's something in me that wouldn't let me do that.

And I'm sure if I did, if, and if I did it in the right way, she would've been very supportive, very loving, but I was so afraid that if I showed her what was really going on with me, that she would reject me and that, you know, she would stop wanting me and wouldn't wanna be with me. And so I just kept it to myself and, uh, it was a real struggle.

It took a lot of time to, to kind of work through that. And it wasn't until I really came to a point of just accepting the fact that, uh, you know, Hey, this is what I'm going through and I can. To just be honest with her about it. Uh, it wasn't until then that I really started feeling more at peace cuz there was just so much anxiety.

So the relationship and not saying it was the only thing stressing me out during that point in my life, I was trying to make some big decisions about how the rest of my life would kinda unfold. But yeah man, that, that relationship, it certainly suffered because of what I was was going through. So yeah. I just curious, is there anything that, that you've seen play out in your relationships related to this whole fear of love?

Yeah. I mean, I think similar to you that fear of fear of letting the other person see you just, it's very difficult for me to let my guard down. I think that's something that I didn't notice right away, but then I realized like the difference between how I act with friends or people that I'm.

Comfortable with that. I, I don't have that fear of rejection that fear of, of the relationship ending. Like there are people that I, that I have like a secure relationship with, but I've noticed that it's very difficult for me to develop that with a man that I, that I like, because there's this really, really deep set fear that they're going to leave.

And a lot of times, the way that plays out is, uh, not only, you know, trying to keep things at a surface level and not wanting to talk about anything, you know, difficult, um, whether it be my feelings, whether it be a subject that is kind of touchy and then also like my stomach will hurt. It's so funny. Like it's such a physiological response.

It's something that I noticed like early on. And then again in therapy, it kind of, my therapist suggested that might be related to that. And so it makes it hard because you have to be able to open up to the other person, um, in order to properly discern and to grow together, you know, grow as. As a couple to get to know each other.

That's so necessary and in marriage even more so obviously, but it's so difficult for me to like talk about things like I will, I, I go through so much interior struggle to avoid bringing things up that are difficult, or if they bring them up, I kind of shut, 'em shut it down in turn also makes connecting difficult.

Um, and so, you know, I overcompensate in other ways, um, because emotionally, like, I don't want to go there, you know? And so there's just a lot of fear, like you said, and it's just, it traps you because. You it's so easy to get it caught up in your head of like I'm scared. And then you start spiraling instead of just bringing it to light and then opening up to the other person about your fear.

Um, it just feels easier to kind of keep it to yourself and hold onto it. And so it just makes the whole process of dating kind of painful and just di difficult. And it's also hard to even explain to the other person, you know, that you're experiencing this difficulty. And I think you mentioned this in our conversation before, it feels like you're a fraud because on the surface, you're like having fun and you like this person and you're sharing with each other and, and investing in each other, but there's a, at a deeper level, you know, you know, that you're withholding a lot.

And so it almost feels like there's a level of being ina inauthentic with the other person, which is counterproductive in a relationship. You, you have to be able to be yourself and to open. And let your guard down. And so, and yeah, I think too, like there's always those flags going off that we talked about.

I, I really like your analogy that you used in our earlier conversation about, you know, you're driving a car and like all your lights, just go on, you know? And, and you're like, oh shoot, like, something's wrong. I need to pull over. But you know, your lights are faulty. And so like, that's what dating feels like to me is a lot of the times is like, all my alarms are going off, but it's not justified.

Like there, there isn't necessarily like an actual problem. And so then it turns into this constant questioning of like, well, is this safe? You know, like it is this conversation mean we're not supposed to be together or did this gesture mean that he's gonna break up with me or like you just analyze every single thing.

And that to them might seem so harmless and insignificant, whatever. And in your mind, it gets blown up into this is gonna make or break this relationship. And especially when it comes to conflict, it's like, this is, this fight is gonna be it. Yeah. And so there's just a lot of, a lot of ways I would say that this kind of.

Has come up for me in relationships, when you said stuck inside your head or something, to that extent, it made me think back to that first relationship. And that would happen to me so much. And I was dealing with a lot of anxiety around that time. And so that certainly played into it, but some of it was from the relationship itself, just the fear that I had going into, into love.

And yeah, I would get so stuck in my head. Just like you said, constant questioning, having all these lights go off, like you said, the car indicator lights saying something's wrong with your car? yeah, something actually wasn't wrong with the car. Yeah. Made me question so many things and just overthink and overthink and just again, not live in the moment, but rather live inside my head.

And yes, I remember getting to a point where I. Started trying to ground myself in reality more. And it may sound silly to someone who's never struggled with this before, but I literally would try, would touch things around me, like whether it was a chair, um, or a table or something like that, to just bring myself into the moment instead of letting my head and my anxiety run away with, you know, my thoughts and, uh, yeah, it was a serious questioning would go on like you, I would think, oh gosh, does this mean.

That this relationship isn't meant to be because for so long, I had heard people say like, oh, when you meet the right person, you'll just know, or it will just feel right. Or other things like peace is a sign that you're supposed to be with that person and all, you know, all good things in the right context.

But, um, in my case it just wasn't that they weren't helpful because it wasn't a lack of peace because the person wasn't good or it wasn't meant to be, it truly was a lack of peace because I was anxious about relationships and about love. And, uh, I think people who kind of preach that message. It's a good thing to say in certain contexts, but in other context, it's harmful because yeah, there's some people who really have an aversion to love who really struggle with vulnerability, really struggle with, you know, opening up and loving someone in the way that they're supposed to because of what they've seen throughout their life.

And so, yeah, so I would get so stuck in my head and I would read into things that really weren't a big deal. Yeah. I think. It's like that tip about, you know, the piece it's like, you know, if you have a extreme phobia of snakes, you know, and they're like, no, no, no, if you just find the right snake, like it's gonna, it's gonna be okay.

Like, it's gonna feel right. It's like, no, you don't understand. Like, I am terrified of any snake. Like it doesn't even if they are harmless and it's not gonna bite me, like, it doesn't matter. Like I'm still going to that, that physiological response is gonna be the same. If you put me in the cage with a snake, you know what I mean?

But they're like, no, no, no, it's fine. Just get in there. Like, you'll be fine if it's the right one, you'll feel it. it's like, no, I'm really not going. Yeah. Yeah, no, I, I hate snakes. I was, uh, kind of a side story. I was in Arizona some years ago and we were going, we were tubing down this river and it was super fun.

We had like a cooler with us and everything and. I, we saw some wild horses on the side of the river. Oh, wow. So we just like pull the tubes over, get out. And we start like, of course, as young boys, we're like, oh, let's chase the horses. oh, no. So, so we start running after these horses and, uh, my friend and I are like, okay, you go that way.

I'll go this way. All right. Well, we'll try to like head 'em off. And, uh, so we're running after these wild horses, not something I recommend, but, um, but as I'm running. Look down in front of me in like a step and a half hoop. This snake just like pisses at me. Oh my gosh. And I just like froze. I was freaked out from what I can remember.

It rattled at me too. So it was like a rattle. Oh my gosh. Not something that you wanna mess with. So, wow. I just froze, counted my eyes on it and slowly backed away. But uh, yeah, not a, not a fan as snakes and stuff. so if you put me personal experience yeah. If you put me in a cage of snakes, it won't overcome my anxiety.

I promise exactly. But, um, but no, no, it's, it's a good point. And, and not to distract from the conversation, but it's like you said, almost like a physiological response that it's hard to, to overcome. And people who come from intact families may not deal with it. They really may not understand. What's going on here and that's okay.

I'm kind of glad that they don't, because that means they don't struggle with it, but it is, uh, it can be somewhat of a trauma response to, uh, to things that we've seen. And I think that it's important to say too, like you said, that it makes it more difficult to discern. It makes it more difficult to see is this someone that I should spend the rest of my life with?

Is this someone that maybe I should even be in a relationship to start with? And, uh, and I've seen it on both ends of the spectrum where you have a really good guy or a good girl, and the person is doubting. Just because they are afraid of love or on the other end, maybe the person, it really isn't good for them, but they don't have the tools and the skills to see, okay, this is going to end well, this is not going to end well.

And either way it will hurt you. And so when it comes to discerning, uh, what, we'll get into some tips on that, but that, that certainly has been a struggle for me, uh, through the years. Same and it to add to that, it really makes you feel like you can't trust yourself, which we'll talk about, uh, a little bit.

So shifting gears, we wanna talk about the solution. How do we overcome this fear of love? We have six tips for you guys. And our hope of course, is that you can face this fear. You can overcome this fear so that you can build a really good and beautiful relationship. Cuz I think Miranda, I know you'd agree with this.

We all want love. We all want authentic, love, love that lasts. And it's possible to have that even if we haven't seen great examples of it, it is possible. And so, uh, these tips guys. Are really gonna help you to, to do that. So let's just dive into this first one. The first one is accept the risk. What do you, what we mean by this is vulnerability.

The possibility of being hurt is inherent in love. You can't remove that. I kind of wish you could, but you can't. And so Miranda, it's a requirement for love, isn't it? Vulnerability. Yeah. And I, I would say that's something that you may have to sit with, you know, for a while, you know, to really. Embrace it and to feel comfortable with it, but it's kind of, you have to remind yourself that the reward is so worth it.

But I think that, yeah, accepting the risk and accepting that, like, if it doesn't work out, like it's not the end like this, isn't it, you know, there's more to the story, but I think sometimes when all you can picture is like, oh, like, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna break up this, isn't gonna work out. I'm gonna get hurt.

You know, obviously there's gonna be a huge aversion to moving forward to persevering, but you have to remember that the payoff, you know, the, the goal is love that last and you may not find it right away, but the hope is that you will, you know, and you, you certainly will not find it if you don't run the risk.

And I think, you know, there's that Lewis quote that you, you know, maybe you can bring up, but talks about how like, yeah, like the cons of not, uh, being vulnerable are so much. You know what I mean? Like the, the ramifications of never opening up your heart to someone are so much worse than running the risk and getting hurt.

Absolutely. Yeah. It's more dangerous not to love. It's more dangerous to, to not be hurt than it is to open yourself to possible hurt. And like you said, CS Lewis said it best. I'll just read off this quote. He said to love it all is to be vulnerable, love anything, and your heart will be rung and possibly broken.

If you wanna make sure of keeping it intact, you must give it to no one, not even an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries, avoid all entanglements, lock it up, safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket, safe, dark motionless, airless, it will change. It will not be broken.

It will become unbreakable. Impenetrable, irredeemable to love is to be vulnerable. I love that quote, because he's really saying, you know, the danger of not loving of putting walls around your heart and really not engaging in a relationship is that your heart would become hard. Yeah. And the truth is like we're saying inherent in love is the fact that you may be hurt and there's just no way to avoid that, unfortunately, in our broken world.

And so love is risky. And we're not saying of course, to throw yourself into the arms of someone who's could be reckless. Yeah. Yeah. We're, we're not saying that to accept the risk. Of course you make sure this is someone who's trustworthy. Who's virtuous, who's worthy of your love. But understanding that it love is a risk.

And even if you, even, if you find someone who is so good and who will love you, it's possible that you'll lose them. And that hurts that will hurt so much, or it's possible that, you know, maybe you think this is meant to be, but they don't. And that is really hard. And there's no way to make that easy. But it's important to just accept the risk.

And so what I've learned over the years is that love is worth the risk. If there's anything that's worth the risk, it is love. And it can be hard to believe that maybe if you've gone through some breakups or, uh, again, you've seen your parents' marriage fall apart. Other marriages around you fall apart.

You may think this just isn't worth the risk. I'm not even gonna try and Miranda, like you said before, if we are convinced that we're doomed to fail, why would we even start mm-hmm so that first step guys, uh, accepts the risk. The second one is purify your idea of love and what we mean here is one essential ingredient to a great marriage, to a great relationship, according to the research.

And we'll link to that in the show. Notes is a realistic concept of love. A realistic concept of love. And so we really need to look at well, what do we think about love? What do we believe about love? What do we think it's supposed to look like? What have we been taught that it's supposed to look like?

Like we were saying earlier in the show, our parents teach us so much about what love is meant to be for better or for worse. And so we really need to take a look at what we believe in. So often these beliefs that we have are very subconscious, right? We don't know that they're there, but they are there.

And what I've seen in my life is, as I've tried to love, as I've tried to build relationships, I've noticed that these fears and these lies are kind of all around me. And I've had to take one at a time and just address those and wrestle with those. And so it's so important to, to confront those lies and to give them the truth, kind of destroy them with truth.

And one of the lies that we talked about Miranda was I'm not built for love. Like I'm just not, I'm not built for this. It's not possible for me. And that was one that for me, was. Has been extremely difficult because, you know, when you internalize something like your parents' divorce and even to a degree take ownership over it, it really is easy to convince yourself that like, I just can't love.

I just cannot be loved. It's just not possible. And it, you know, fear in a way it works well, but it's not the most effective thing when you start to break it apart because it's vague, you know, it makes statements like that, like never or always or whatever. And so, yeah, like it is deep, um, that it's hard to really address because it is at kind of a very inherent level and has been for so long, but certainly it's brought so much freedom to, to even just question it to say, well, maybe that's not true.

You know what I mean? Mm-hmm um, so even if you don't feel ready to like completely let go of, of a lie like that, at least leave room, for doubt, at least say, you know, like maybe, but maybe not. Cuz I, I think you find that when you start. Questioning things like that, at least that kind of gives you a little bit of hope and it makes it easier to progress in the opposite direction.

No, so, so true. And one word about fear. Let's talk about fear for a second here. Fear has a role in our lives, has a role in, you know, our, our makeup as humans. And that is it, you know, helps us to avoid things that are harmful for us. You know, it's good that if you're, uh, near the edge of a cliff, that you feel some fear there, it's gonna help you to avoid falling off the cliff.

But what can happen often is that we can become so afraid and it can get exaggerated to the point where, um, it really turns into. Almost an imaginary threat, not, not a real threat. And that's what, um, Dr. Julia Eski said in a recent episode, we, we kind of think it's real, but it's not real. Or we exaggerate maybe how real a threat is.

And so when I've dealt with this fear of love, this fear of vulnerability, that's what it's been more for me, not, not a real fear. Cuz when I look back on my relationships, the things that I was afraid of, weren't good things to be afraid of. Like, like they were valid in the sense that in my experience I saw these things go badly.

Therefore I was afraid it would repeat with me, but the way that it got exaggerated, wasn't a good thing. so just curious Marinette what, what else would you add about fear? Um, yeah, I think just to challenge it, you know, it's a very, it's a learned response and it's becomes very habituated, especially in thoughts.

You know, thoughts tend to work in like cycles or something, you know, spirals. And so it's easy to go down the same thought process over and over and over again. And like, the more you go down that spiral, the more often the easier it, it gets to go down that spiral. It's almost like an addiction, you know, it's like the, the more often, you know, you eat sugar, the more you're gonna crave it.

And that, you know, easier, it'll be to like reach for a cookie or whatever. And so with thoughts, like it's almost, you have to, you have to be very conscious of. What is going on and with me internally, and be able to challenge the fear because otherwise it, because it is so big and so overwhelming, it's easy to get entrenched in that and not be, uh, not, you're not partaking in objective reality.

You're not, you're not, you're, you're living out fear, which is not, not equal to reality. I think it's so easy when, especially when there is such a strong physiological response to say like, this is, I fear this and it is real because of what I'm feeling. It's like, no, you feel something you're scared and it's also not true.

It's not what, it's not the actual lived experience that taking place at that moment. No. What you said is so good, cuz it gets reinforced. The fear gets reinforced through repeated behavior and uh, Dr. Julia made the analogy of kind of being afraid of walking down a dark alley. And maybe something bad happened to someone, you know, when they're walking down a dark alley and we're not recommending walking down dark alley

But if you, no, if you go down a dark alley and you see something moving or you see someone in the alley, you may have immediately assume I'm gonna die, I'm gonna murdered. Right. And is that a possibility that you would get hurt? Yeah, totally be, you know, be careful be safe that jumping to that conclusion, like every single time, you know, maybe walking down a street where, you know, you're not gonna be harmed, uh, would be kind of an exaggeration of that fair.

So that's really what we're getting at in so many words that the next lie that I've believed certainly, and we already brought up in this conversation is that love does not last that no matter how good it is, eventually it's gonna fall apart. And this, this really stuck with me for so long. And again, it took me a while to put my finger on it.

But what I've learned over the years is that love can last. Why because we can make it last. And we'll talk about that in a second. We need to really understand what love is first, if we wanna make it last. But one of the things that's helped me so much, just really practical tip is spending time with good couples who have solid marriages.

Mm-hmm going over to their house for dinner, spending time with them at events, doing things like that, just seeing them interact. And again, they probably don't have a perfect marriage. Nobody does, but just a marriage that you can look up to that you wanna emulate. And there's a few couples that I can think of who really have great marriages.

Yes. And I want my marriage to be like their marriage. And so seeing them though has really brought this belief back that it's possible to make love last. Even though I have tons of examples of love going really badly. I have a lot of examples of marriages falling apart of couples really treating each other badly.

And it can be so easy as humans to just resort, to always seeing the negative in things. And so it's important to also look to see, okay, who's doing this right. And how do I replicate that? And so now I, I do truly believe that love can last. It's still a temptation. I think, to think that I can't when things are hard in my own marriage, but I do truly believe that that love can last, has this been something that you've struggled with as well?

Myrna? Yeah. I mean, I would say when, whenever I am in a relationship, you know, and I've. Been blessed to like date such great guys, but even so it's always like, okay, like this is gonna end today. Like something's gonna happen. Or they, you know, haven't responded to me yet. Or I haven't heard from them or they said, you know, this or that.

And like, it's over, you know, it's just like your it's just like, my mind constantly goes to that. And it, it just makes things so much more difficult because it's like you're working towards a goal that you think is impossible, you know? But I think what helped me a lot is, and it's so such a blessing shortly after my parents divorce, I happened to babysit for a family who just this couple that has one of the most beautiful marriages I've ever seen.

I just, I was at their house like one full day, a week, if not more. And it was such a privilege to witness, you know, their family life and their relationship gave me hope for. The rest of my life, like to this day, they, they modeled for me, just the fact that God brought them into my life, like such, you know, so shortly after the divorce and for, you know, it was at least a couple years, it was incredibly healing for me.

And it was, it is what has sustained me. I think my hope for marriage and love is, was seeing them so beyond the lookout for, for couples like that, and, you know, it might be kinda awkward or, you know, uncomfortable at first, if you don't know them super well, but, oh my gosh, like it is a game changer in terms of having hope about love and marriage.

Totally. It was so helpful. I can't say it enough, um, totally there with you. And how would you say maybe that's give some people practical advice on how to build that relationship? What I would say is if you're on like a college campus, for example, start by forming a relationship with your professor, you know, whether it's the wife or the husband, and then slowly, you know, don't go up to them and be like, Hey, can I come study your.

It's probably a little bit creepy, but instead say, you know, Hey, you know, get to know them a little bit, ask them maybe, Hey, could I get coffee with you some time? And, uh, and then over time after developing a relationship, uh, you can say, Hey, you know, I come from a broken family and I wanna get married one day and I wanna build a really good, beautiful relationship.

And I'm afraid because of what I saw in my family. I see that you have a really beautiful relationship and I'd love if it's possible some time to just spend time with you and your spouse, or spend time with you and your kids. Uh, is, is that something that would be possible? You know, then maybe you can go over for dinner or, you know, depending on where you're at in life, maybe you can have them over for dinner.

And, uh, the couples, again, that I've done this with, I've done this with them. It's been so healing and so helpful, just like you said Miranda to, to, to have them in my life. And I still look up to so many of them. So you kinda have to be courageous to kinda have to go outside yourself. Because I think a lot of marriages who have, uh, really strong, uh, a really strong relationship, they may not be thinking of that.

They may not be thinking of the people around them that have come from brokenness. And, uh, don't really know what that looks like. And they may see that as normal. Whereas we see it as like really, really beautiful. And so, uh, so you kind of have to be courageous and go after that, but do it gradually do it over time.

And, uh, when it gets to the point, you could even open up and say, Hey, this is something that I struggle with. And I'd love to kinda look to you and your wife or you and your husband. A, uh, a mentor to me. Is there anything, anything else you'd say about forming that relationship? I think the more that you run in, in good circles, like whether that's volunteering somewhere, getting involved in a parish or in a ministry of some sort, like the more you just are exposed to good people, the more likely you're gonna see, um, those strong marriages.

So, you know, so it might take a little bit of proactive, you know, going to look for a group, you know, some sort of, cause maybe that you're passionate about or whatever, but they're certainly out there and they're worth finding. Totally. Yeah. So go to your church, look at your professors, uh, get involved in some ministry or something.

Just find out where the good people hang out and fund people who have good marriages and then, uh, yeah, try to surround yourself with those people because we do, we truly do end up repeating what we see around. And so surround yourself with really, really good people and good, good relationships. And this is true too.

When you get into the dating world, you wanna be spending time with couples that are on a similar path to you that wanna build love. That lasts that are not just in it for, you know, just a short fling, but they really do want to figure out if this is the person that they wanna spend or life with. And so, uh, surround yourself with those couples go and double dates, you know, hang out, do things like that.

Uh, you know, the guy can get to know the guy, the girl can get to know the girl. And I found that super helpful too, to just have other relationships around you who are kind of striving after the same thing, even if they're not able to be like a mentor to you. Um, it is good Miranda, like you said, just to run in those circles.

Mm-hmm , mm-hmm, the next slide that I believed was feelings equal love, and this is so harmful yeah, but our, our culture really, really preaches this in a subtle way. But also in not so subtle ways. I mean, all you need to do is watch a lot of romantic movies. Yep. And, um, you know, listen to music. And I really thought in my relationships that the stronger I felt for a girl, the stronger was my love for her.

And when feelings would fade, I thought that love was fading too. And so I would get freaked out. I'm not kidding when I was younger, it sounds silly saying it, but I'm not kidding. I'll get freaked out when my feelings weren't as strong on a particular day, a particular week, or even if it SMED out longer than that a month.

And, uh, and I thought that love was ending and I didn't want love 10 because I wanted it. I wanted to build love that lasted. And so, uh, you know, this played into my relationships later, uh, my serious dating relationships, but it really, really freaked me out. And so I needed to, like we were saying, purify my idea of love and really ask the question, you know, what is love if I wanna make it last, I first need to understand what it is to begin with.

And I love this quote from, uh, Pope John Paul, the second, if you're not Catholic, that's okay. He's still awesome. um, and he said that love is not merely a feeling. It is an act of the will that consists of choosing in a constant manner. The good of the beloved to the good of one's self. I wanna say that one more time.

Love is not merely a feeling. It is an act of the will that consists of choosing in a constant manner. The good of the beloved to the good of oneself. So, what you can see in that is love is a choice and feelings are certainly a part of love, but they're only a part and they certainly are not the measure of love.

You can't measure the work of a relationship based on the intensity of the emotion. There's more to it than that. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it goes both ways. Like if you feel really intense fear, that doesn't mean the relationship is bad or, or that you should break up or that you should end it or whatever.

And if you don't feel anything or feelings, um, can be helpful, but they're not the end all be all like it's okay to experience some discomfort in relationships. You know, that's part of the growth and part of the challenge. I mean, I've experienced the same thing that you said Joey, about, you know, the, this fear of like, okay, I don't feel super, super in love and I don't feel super infatuated right now or today.

And it's just like a panic of like, oh my gosh, I have to, this is wrong, you know? And yeah. And realizing that, like that makes no sense, you know, like you don't operate other life decisions on whether or not you feel like it, you know, like, like saving money or going to the gym or, you know, decisions that are good for you.

You don't base it off of how you're feeling at that moment. You know, it's, it's a much more integrated. Process. Yeah, absolutely requires discipline. And you can love even when you don't feel it. Yeah. And, and that's a really important distinction. And I think often what I saw is that people would talk about relationships and talk about like the honeymoon phase.

And this is a big problem, I think in, uh, so many circles, but especially for newlyweds. Um, but even before the marriage, even during the engagement, during, in dating relationships, I've seen people talk about the honeymoon phase, where they almost expect things to be effortless. They expect the feelings to be high.

They expect people to get along really well there not to be much struggle. And what happened with me is there were certainly great periods of. Being, you know, really in love, but there were also periods of struggle and it would make me think what what's going on with this honeymoon phase that everyone talks about.

Like I thought I was supposed to kind of find the person that was meant to, I was meant to be with everything. We go super smoothly in our dating relationship, we would get married. We'd have like years of wet it bliss. And then, you know, maybe a few years into marriage, we would fight and then start to struggle a bit.

But up to then, you know, it was, it was all gonna be good and easy, and that has not been my . And, and I don't think there's something wrong with me. I certainly think that I struggle with relationships more than others given, you know, my background, but I think that's super harmful. And so guys, if you're dating and you're feelings, fade.

There maybe a million reasons that that happened. And maybe it is a sign that there's something else in their relationship that you should be paying attention to that, you know, maybe this isn't the right person for you to be with, but I'm very hesitant to, uh, give the advice that you should base, you know, your decisions in a relationship off of emotional alone.

In fact, I think almost never. Do you wanna base your decision off of emotion alone because it usually will not, will not serve you. Well, you have to use your mind as well as your heart. Absolutely. That's so true. Another lie I believed, and this kinda goes along with what we were saying is that if I married the right person love would be effortless.

It would be picturesque. It would be beautiful. And, um, you know, love is certainly beautiful and there's some really high highs. Um, but it's not a fairy. And what I've found is that it's usually different in reality than we picture it in our minds. And it's messy. And it's something that takes work just like Randy, you were saying with any worthwhile goal in life, it's gonna take work.

Love requires work. And, uh, you know, if you talk to any Olympian, who's one gold. They're not gonna tell you they did it by sitting on their couch, watching Netflix, it took really, really hard work, especially on the days that they didn't feel like doing it. And so that this is something I had to confront that love takes work.

And even if I found the right person for me or a person that was good for me did not mean it would be effortless. It would take, it would take work. And I really, I don't think you'll ever find the perfect person for you because we all have, um, faults. We all have weaknesses and, uh, we're gonna kind of butt heads at times and that's okay.

And that happens. But I think it is really toxic to think that, you know, if you find the right person that your love is gonna be effortless. Yeah. And I think. This, there's an idea of like that the other person, like you have to have all these things in common. You have to be perfectly compatible in all these different ways.

And I mean, you have to be compatible in, in big things. You know, I think there has to be a common ground there with what you value in life. Um, but certainly like you're never gonna find someone who agrees with you in everything who has all the same hobbies. And I think that it comes down to accepting the other person as other, and like embracing their otherness, you know, and, and allowing room for that and not expecting the person to be an extension of yourself, cuz that's not what they are.

Totally. You know, like you said, there needs to be that foundation. You need to have that common purpose. But after that then yeah. It's um, you know, you can have, you can keep your individuality it's okay. You don't need to be like, you know, perfect match in that sense. And I love the book, a severe mercy. Oh, so good.

It's so good. And I love the, the idea and maybe you could explain this better than I could, but, um, I love the idea of sharing. Yes. They thought that the couple it was Sheldon and his wife and they, they had really, really beautiful love. And basically what they said is if one of us likes something, then there must be something likable in that.

And so the other one was going to make a true effort to find the thing that the other person liked in it. And so I've seen this in couples, they just like Garrn into one thing that the other person's into and that's okay. But the result of the, what they did, what Sheldon and his wife did was really beautiful.

They would form an appreciation for the thing that the spouse liked. Um, but also they would just learn to know their spouse better and love them better. And it was just really, really beautiful in this book. And so, uh, and I, I would encourage everyone to do that, that if, you know, there's something that you're kind of resistant to go ahead and kind of entertain it.

Try it out. Um, and just if nothing else form an appreciation for why this person might like this thing, of course, assuming it's a good thing, but it, it was a really beautiful thing that they would do in their relationship. It's funny, cuz that was one of my favorite takeaways from that book as well. So awesome.

Last, uh, lie that I believed was I thought it was a gift that was not worth giving. I just felt like I wasn't enough. And I really internalized that following my parents separation cuz I thought, well, if I was, why did they separate? Why wouldn't they fight harder for us? And so in my relationships, whether it was my serious dating relationships or even just.

Interactions with girls. I would keep things at the surface level. And we talked about this more in episode eight, but just to touch on this briefly here we, yeah. We both experienced that fear thinking that I can't really show people what's underneath. And if I do, then they might like leave. They might get bored and, and walk away.

Um, we were afraid that if someone would see the real me, then they wouldn't like what they saw. And, uh, man, that's such a debilitating fear because it prevents you from revealing yourself. One of the main, you know, things is, you know, you can only be loved to the, to the extent that you're known. You know, I.

Aquinas. He's a kinda philosopher Saint in the Catholic church. He says, you know, to, to know, is to love. Like there has to be a precedent of understanding before you can truly love. And so if you don't, if you withhold, if you don't reveal yourself, like you're not able to love, uh, or to be loved. And so that idea of like, I'm not good enough, or I'm, you know, X, Y, Z, if it keeps you hold up in yourself, like it's not allowing the other person to love you.

And so you hit a wall in my relationships. This would come out in me, flirting with girls, but not allowing it to go deeper. Mm-hmm just holding myself back because I was generally afraid that they wouldn't accept me. And so, yeah, it's so important to really allow the other person to see you as you are, because one of the measures of love that I've learned one of the ways that you'll.

Feel the most loved in a relationship is if someone really understands you and really knows you, and if you're preventing them from doing that, you're never gonna experience that love that we all long for. And so what I've learned over the years is that I am a gift worth giving and worth keeping. And I've learned that through my relationship with God first and foremost for me.

Um, but also through my friendships, they've really taught me that, um, you know, I'm, I'm a good man and I'm worth, worth, love and worth keeping. And that has, has been really helpful. And then that extended into my dating relationships. And we'll get into that in a second, but, um, but that's been so helpful.

So the second tip purify your idea of love. Number three is do it scared. And what we mean here is it's okay to feel afraid. And I say this a lot on the show, but courage is not the absence of fear it's acting in spite of your fear. It's okay to do it scared. And so some tips to overcome your fear. First, we just have to face it.

We have to recognize that, okay, this is, this is what I'm afraid of. This is my fear before we can attack it and overcome it. And, uh, one of the things that is so useful and overcoming fear, which Miranda and I have both found useful is getting it out of your head. Don't just keep it in your head, cuz in your head, it's very loud, it's big, it's scary and could overwhelm you.

And so you really wanna get it out of, out of your head. And um, one of the things Miranda that we talked about was journaling. Yeah. I mean, I'm a big journaler. I've been journaling since I was like 12, but it's, there's something about writing it down that is extremely cathartic. And um, even if you don't right away express it to the other person, you know, just seeing it in words makes you realize that, okay, like this isn't what's happening right now.

It's just kind of, what is, I guess, taking place more internally and I'm really amazed at how instantaneous. The effect is for me. And, and it's not always the case, but a lot of times, like as soon as I just put the words on paper and say, this is what I feel, it's like the power of the words or the feelings is reduced.

You know, it becomes words on a paper and not my destiny . So I think just the actor journaling, you know, even if you're not someone who, who enjoys writing necessarily, or, or is comes easily to you, even if you just say it on paper, the way you would say it to another person, just the act of doing that kind of takes away the power of fear and.

And like those internal processes, because you realize that, you know, it may not be, uh, your objective reality at that moment. Fear is so convincing, I guess it's really good at just totally convincing us that it is true. And what it, a lot of times it does that by like the physiological response that comes with fear, like of the anxiety, like your is tight or your head hurts, or you're shaking, you know, whatever it is, it becomes.

Yeah. And so you're like, this is what I'm feeling and I feel it so strongly. And so I know it has to be true. Mm-hmm and writing it down makes you realize that, wait, no, this is just what I'm feeling right now. It's not necessarily what's happening. It's not what the other person is feeling. It's just, what's going on with me internally and, and even examining, okay, like why do I feel this?

You know, the more you can delve into it, I think the better off, you know, the more helpful it is, but yeah, just. Fear is not truth. Don't let it bully you into, you know, into thinking that like that, that is the only option that it's the only outcome or whatever, like fear has no place, you know, in your life, at least overwhelming, debilitating fear should not dictate our decision.

So yeah, so fear at the end of the day, a lot of times is just a feeling and writing it down can help us wake us up to that reality. Another tip you gave was practicing mindfulness, just being present in the moment that you are not letting your mind get taken away with whatever you're thinking about or afraid of in the moment.

Because like you said before, it's so easy to just spiral just to get pulled into kind of a circle or repeating circle of whatever you are afraid of. And so, uh, really just living in the moment and, uh, focusing on what's around you, the people around you can be so helpful. And I, like I mentioned before, even touching things kind of grounding myself in reality was, was really helpful.

And so just getting guys getting it out of your head. Yeah. I think also understanding that like, Fear can be such a powerful tool. You know what I mean? Like mindfulness, what has helped me too, is also like you said, touching, but also like hearing and smelling and like, you know what I mean? Like going through all the senses of like, what's going on with you at that moment.

Yeah. I know that's a tool that a lot of therapists use to help people who, you know, deal with intense anxiety, um, or even non intense, just anxiety. So, uh, so we can use it here too. Yeah, it's really, it's really good. The last tip to overcome your fear is act. And what we mean by this is action is the antidote to fear.

So if you can act, even when you feel afraid and you can move forward, even if you're feeling really nervous or scared, then you will eventually overcome your fear. And this has worked in so many areas of my life. Whether it's from giving a talk on a stage to a lot of people or, you know, doing something else that I just maybe don't feel a hundred percent ready to do, or, you know, I'm just nervous about.

And so just act, just act and do it scared. And as you do this over time, you'll build up that muscle. You'll better be able to do things scared. And then you'll notice also that you become less afraid as you do that again and again. Yeah. Fear wants to paralyze you. And so even if. Don't know what the right thing to do is like, just doing something is so much better than doing nothing.

And in doing something, you are already opposing fear, you know, because it wants to hold you captive. And so in just like taking a step, even if it's not, you don't know if it's the right step, but just doing something you're already in a sense, beginning to conquer that fear. That's like a squirrel standing in the middle of the road.

Like just make a call go right. Go left. It's OK. It's really worse if you just stay right there where you're at. And so yeah. Act, act so good. So tip number three, do it scared. Tip number four. This is a quick one. Start with good friendships. Start with friendships that are safe. Start with people that you trust people that you have experience with people you've known for a while, if possible, and practice vulnerability in those safe friendships.

This has worked for me, whether it was, you know, my good friends from high school or, you know, the friends I got to know in college and really trusted, uh, I would open up to them more and more. And as I did that again, it was almost like strengthening that muscle. I was able to do that in my romantic relationships as well, which were a lot scarier than those friendships.

And so practice practice in those kind of safe friendships. So tip number four, start with good friendships, tip number five, go into romance gradually. And, and what we're saying here is just, don't dive into romance headline. It's tempting, honestly, when it's kind of funny, we're talking about being afraid of love, but there's almost like an opposite extreme where people just dive into romance.

Once they find someone who they feel that they can trust and open up to, they, they think, oh gosh, I feel like I couldn't love anyone. Couldn't trust them. And now I found someone I can. So I'm just gonna go full force. Hold off on that. Gradually gradually build that relationship. And if you think of something like a tree or any plant, it grows over time.

Gradually. It's not something that just grows typically overnight to be big and strong and beautiful. It takes time mm-hmm . And so your relationship should take time as well. And one thing that I would say is, you know, start with a friendship, build a friendship, if you can, it's not always possible, but even if you can't, once you start dating, focus on the friendship, there, don't always focus on, you know, the romance, the feelings, holding hands, kissing, like focus on things that you both like to do, focus on spending time with other friends of yours and just build that solid foundation.

Because I can tell you almost been married two years at this point, and it's been wonderful and beautiful, but your friendship really is the rock, the foundation upon which everything else is built. And so if you go into romance gradually you build that foundation of friendship. Then you're gonna be so much better off in the long run.

And I would say too, like I always remind myself that patient is like the first descriptor of love in Corinthians. And I think that for us, especially who struggle with love, like we have to be patient with it. Like we have to understand that we're maybe not gonna be able to overcome all our fears right away, or we're not gonna be able to like divulge all we would like to right away.

And that's okay. Like we're not SP you know, that's not like a necessity, that's not a requirement. Like it's okay to take your time in unveiling, you know, yourself and to do so slowly. And, you know, even if it's, you know, even if there's a element of frustration, cause you're like, I wish I could, uh, feel super close to you right away.

But I think that, that it's okay if that doesn't happen, you know, immediately. And like, there's time you have time, you know? Yeah. To practice that patience. Even that uneasiness that comes along with. Going into a relationship when you're afraid. I think we kind of have to sit in that and get comfortable with it.

And as we walk through that, you know, you can't really go around it. You can't go under and above it. You kind of just have to walk through it. Uh, what you'll realize it, it won't be, it won't control you as much as it maybe did in the past. And by gradually walking through it, it will you'll start learning.

Okay. This person is safe. This relationship is safe. Yeah. I might be hurt, but I'm willing to take that risk cuz. Ahead of me, the, the possible feature that I have with this person is worth it. You know, this person is worth it. And so, yeah, I think so many good things are built over time. They're, they're not masterpieces don't happen overnight.

If you think in art, I love Italy. And you know, if you go over there and you see just gorgeous, gorgeous statues and these gorgeous paintings, you can't think that this happened overnight. Like this is something that often took especially many of the beautiful churches. It took years, and even generations of people, like maybe the grandfather started it and then the, you know, the father continued it and maybe the grandson, the son of the, the father finished it.

And it's just kind of crazy to think about cuz we live in a culture with so much instant gratification and things are just at our fingertips with technology, which is good in a lot of ways. But, uh, we tend to think that our relationship should work that way as well when that's just not the case, something great, like this takes time to build.

And so don't rush into, uh, take time and really build that solid friendship and. Things will go so much better for you down the road. Absolutely. Tip number five, go into romance gradually. And our last tip number six is, rely on others to help you discern. And what we mean by discern is rely on other people to help you make a good decision about whether this is the person you wanna spend your life with.

And so, like we were saying, sometimes it can feel like we're walking through a foggy. Or we're driving along a foggy road and we don't really know where the road goes. And so we need people in our corner who are helping us to discern to figure out if this person is good for us, are we a good match? Do we suit each other?

Is this something that I want to do for the long haul? And so, um, I think it's so helpful to have people in your corner and if, if you can your parents, but I understand that so many of us, obviously the majority of people listening, I would say, come from broken families. And so we might not feel like we can, but maybe you can rely on one parent or maybe there's a mentor you can rely on, or maybe a family friend, or maybe like we were saying that couple, that you've.

Gotten close with who has a really beautiful marriage. Maybe you can involve them in your relationship and just kinda open up to them and say, Hey, this is what I'm thinking about. The relationship. This is where we're strong. This is where we're weak. What do you think are these red flags? Are these things that you think should prevent us from going forward towards marriage?

And so it's, it's really important though, to have people in your corner really hit the nail on the head. I, I think the more we rely on ourselves, the worse off we be, because even being young and not having a ton of experience, like that's already. Makes it more challenging, right. But on top of that, we have this intense anxiety and, uh, aversion to love.

And so if you get caught up in your own head and, um, try to rely so on yourself for this decision, like there's just there, you're gonna make very little progress, I think. And even, you know, if, if you are religious and you pray like a lot of times prayer doesn't seem very fruitful either. I think, um, because it turns into just thoughts or fears or circulating as opposed to, um, being open to what I guess the answer you're looking for.

And so I think talking to someone else, just another person to voice, you know, your concern or your hope can be so much more helpful and so much more fruitful than you just going in your own head and it's challenging and it can be kind of awkward, you know, but hopefully it's someone that you already have a good relationship with and that you trust.

And so there, I don't know, I just, I'm just thinking of all the times that I have gone to one of my friends or. Someone that I look up to and said, you know, this is what I'm, I I've had this fear right now. And in, in my mind, in my, uh, experience, it's like this fear or this concern is totally legitimate and it's totally true.

And there's no, there's no other way and blah, blah. And then you talk to someone else and you're like, wait, maybe it's not, you know, may they, they able to offer an alternative, you know, which a lot of times we're not capable of coming up with on our own. And so I, I really can't emphasize enough, like the importance of bringing these things up to someone else, especially, you know, like you said, preferably someone who maybe is farther along, uh, in this journey than you, because I think they more often have a little bit more insight and advice to offer.

Um, but even if it is a friend, I think it's worth bringing up. If you feel like there's no one else you can talk to because a lot of times they can offer. At least like an alternative that isn't like confirming your worst fear, that that's really good advice and it can be in love. It's hard to see clearly it really is.

And, you know, there's, you hear people talk about the, the love hormone oxytocin and that, you know, can really blind you to seeing the faults in another person or, you know, that that's one component of this conversation is just that it's just helps to have someone who's kind of objective on the sidelines to just help you judge the relationship.

Um, but then SP speaking specifically to fear, they can help you overcome that. And so really, really good advice. And, but the last thing I wanted to say on this one, like I said before, is if there's a lack of peace in your relationship, I wouldn't take that as a immediate sign that you should jump ship.

And like I said, there's a lot of speakers and writers who kind of allude to that. Maybe they don't say it outright, but they kind of allude to that. And it's possible again, that that's pointing to something in your relationship. That means that you shouldn't be together. But I would say dig deeper.

Especially if you're someone who. Is anxious and afraid when it comes to love. So just ask the question. Why, why is there a lack of peace and what you may find? And what I've found in my relationships is it has more to do with my fear than the relationship itself. And so, uh, again, I wouldn't base your decisions off of emotional alone, but objectively look at the relationship overall.

And so yeah, this last tip, uh, I think, I think is so, so useful. So tip number six, rely on others to help you discern. So guys, I hope these tips have been helpful for you. And in closing out the show, uh, again, just wanna remind you the whole purpose of overcoming your fear is so that you can form those intimate, meaningful, joyful relationships.

And in my life, uh, not only my romantic relationships, but also my friendships, but in a particular way, my romantic relationships. My marriage have been some of the greatest joys in my life. And from everyone I talk to who has been married for a long time, much longer than I have. Uh, they say it's just so beautiful and it gets better over the years.

So I really, really hope that these tips have been helpful for you. And we just wanted to briefly show that it's possible for you to overcome your fear. And I have to say, I'm married now. Like I said, I've been married about two years at this point. And, uh, yeah. Even going into the relationship with my now wife, I had so much more confidence, so much more courage.

I'd gone through a lot of healing on my own, through counseling, through spiritual direction. And, uh, just received a lot of affirmation from my mentors from, um, you know, my friendships. And so that just allowed me, made me into a better stronger person. And so when it came time to pursue my wife, it was, um, it wasn't as difficult as some of the previous relationships.

And there was a lot more peace. There was still some fear. Not saying I didn't deal with it, but there was a lot more peace even down to my wedding day. I remember your wedding day can be super nervous and most people are really nervous and that's totally okay because it's a big deal. But I, for some reason, I just had a lot of confidence that day.

I was happy. I wasn't nervous leading up to it. Don't don't get me wrong. But that day I was very confident, very happy. And, uh, I think it was due to a lot of the intentional work that, that I had done and others had helped me do leading up to that point. And so that's what we want for you guys. We want you to get to that point where you can, you can overcome that fear and it is possible, and you may still be struggling.

You may be struggling with your fear of love or vulnerability, but that's okay. Just keep fighting. Do the things that we said. And if you guys have any feedback, let us know. You can let us know, um, at the link I'll give you at the end or feel free to just reach out to ReSTOR and then let us know, but it's really it's worth it.

It's good. You can overcome this. I really was terrified of loving relationships and now I'm married. And so if I could do, you can do it too. So Miranda, anything else you, uh, wanna say in closing? I think it's so beautiful. Yeah, thank you for sharing that just as a child of divorce, and I'm sure anyone listening can attest to this.

It is so difficult and it's so hopeful just to know that other people who have gone through this are able to like find love and to make it work and to find healing. That's such a grace and yeah, I'm very grateful that you have had that experience and that you're willing to share, share about it.

Absolutely. I'm more than happy to share. I think for me, obviously I'm not as far along as you are in. Process, I think, but I mean, just from my first relationship to now seeing how much more awareness I have, I think that's, you know, such a game changer, just bringing awareness into the situation, but also especially comparing my last relationship to now seeing how much easier it's been to handle the fear and to handle the anxiety that comes.

Like, I think before I was such a, like, I was such a victim to, to the fear and to the anxiety and it made dating so hard. And even though like I was dating a great, great person and, you know, he was certainly so good and so many ways, um, I think that my fear was like, just so crippling that it made our relationship, you know, extremely difficult.

And I don't think that that was necessarily the only problem. I don't think it's the only reason it didn't work out, but it was painful and. I notice now over, you know, a few years later, having gone through some healing, having, having worked more in therapy and process more of what's happened. Um, I feel like this time around it has been easier.

It has been easier to combat the fears and it doesn't the fear isn't as intense. It's not as overwhelming and it, and the process itself isn't as painful. And so, um, and, and there's more, I think there's more hope too. There's more hope that like, you know, maybe it could work out like maybe it is possible.

And so just to see like the difference starting out, you know, not understanding, not knowing, running, running from love because I was so scared to still being able to persevere in spite of it, even though it's not completely gone, it's so amazing. And it, and you know, there are days. It really sucks and it's hard.

And, and I resent it and it feels like I'm, I haven't made much progress, but I, I really know that overall I certainly have. And if that's where you are right now, where like it sucks and it hurts and it, you know, you feel like there isn't, um, a way out like it, there really is. Like, there really is so much hope and it it's a long process, I think a lot of times, but, um, if we keep just like putting a foot in front of the other like that, I think that's the main thing.

Absolutely. Just keep fighting, keep, keep pushing on guys. And so I hope, hope these tips have been helpful for you Miranda. Thank you for sharing all that you did, especially right there. And, uh, you know, I think the people listening, especially who struggle with this are gonna be able to find all these tips useful and everything we've talked about hopefully will be a sign that there's hope.

Yes. So guys, thank you so much for listening and, uh, yeah. Hope to have you back soon. I appreciate your time. Of course.

In closing out the show. I just wanna repeat the six tips. Number one, accept the risk. Number two, purify your idea of love. Number three, do it scared. Number four, start with good friendships. Number five, go into romance gradually. And number six, rely on others to help you discern. And so my question for you is which one of those tips is most helpful for you right now?

And my challenge to you would be to get after it, put these tips into action, unless we act these conversations while they may be cool to think about and talk about they're kind of useless. And so put this stuff into action, and if you're struggling and you need some additional help, feel free to reach out to us.

In fact, you can email me directly if you wanna talk about this@joeyrestoredministry.com. Again, that's Joey J O E Y. Restored ministry ministry is just singular.com. Joey restored ministry.com or maybe this episode helped you, or maybe you have some other sort of feedback. Feel free to email me. Feel free to reach out to me.

I'd love to hear from you. The resources mentioned are the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 17. Again, that's restored ministry.com/seventeen one. Thank you so much for listening. You are the reason that we do this. If this has been useful, please subscribe and share this podcast with someone that you know, who could really use it.

And always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

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#016: Everyone Acted Like My Parents’ Separation Wasn’t a Big Deal | Erin Hasso

Erin’s parents separated after a big fight when she was 16. It was really painful for her. However, everyone acted like it wasn’t a big deal. And so, she felt like something was wrong with her for feeling so hurt.

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Erin’s parents separated when she was 16 after a big fight. It was really painful for her. However, everyone acted like it wasn’t a big deal. And so, she felt like something was wrong with her for feeling so hurt.

In the years that followed, she struggled with depression, loneliness, self-harm, and suicidal thoughts. In this episode, you’ll hear how she overcome those things and found healing. She also shares some practical wisdom for coping, healing, and thriving.

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Erin's parents separated when she was 16, after a big fight that they had, and it really hurt her. However, so many people in her life made it seem like it wasn't a big deal. And so she felt like something was wrong with her for feeling hurt by it. In the years that followed, she fell into depression, loneliness self-harm, and even suicidal thoughts.

But thankfully her story didn't end there. She eventually got help and found ways to cope and heal. And now her life is so much better. She. Better and she's happier than she ever thought that she could be. And so in this episode, you're gonna hear the rest of her story. You'll hear how some of her friendships heard.

And some really helped her. We also discussed how, where you find your value really matters. And the implications of that, she explains why she was so drawn to self harm and how she broke out of her depression. We also touched on a really important topic of how she felt the need to parent her parents.

And we discussed why it's so unhealthy for us to do that and why it ultimately hurts our relationship with our parents. If we do. Erin gives us tips on coping in healthy ways and how to find authentic healing. And she answers the question is the pain and effort that it takes to heal even worth it. Keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you cope, heal, and grow after your parents' divorce of separation. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 16, a little bit about our guest Erin Hasso. Erin is a graduate of Franciscan university of Steubenville.

Currently she works part-time as a nanny while completing her degree as a medical administrative assistant at Genesee community college, she currently resides in Rochester. New York, where she enjoys taking ballroom dance classes and going on hiked with her dog. Troy, she's also leading an effort to get a ministry started in Rochester for adult children of divorce, starting with bringing the recovering origins retreat to the area we spoke about that retreat in episode nine.

So if you're in the Rochester area, definitely connect with. She was also one of the contributors to the book, primal loss, the now adult children of divorce speak. We spoke about that book in episode two, if you wanna hear more about that. And by the way, a lot of the primal loss contributors have reached out to restored to share their story.

And so if that's you, if you've contributed to primal loss, we'd love to hear from you. You can contact us by going to our website, restored ministry.com/contact. Again, restored ministry.com/contact. So here's my conversation with Erin. Aaron. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me.

This is awesome. It's it's great to have you, and I wanna just dive right into your story. And when guests come on and tell their stories, I usually ask them, take us to the day that your parents separated. How old were you, what exactly happened? How did you react to it? It was the fall of 2010, I think around October, my sister had just started college in August, so we were all getting used to that.

And I was 16 and my mom and dad got in. A big fight about don't even know it at this point. And my mom told my dad to get out. So he went to his brothers, just stayed there for a couple weeks and then moved into an apartment. And they started their separation shortly after that. I mean, they, they had a lot of fights, uh, as I was growing up.

So the fight wasn't anything different. So it was a little bit of a surprise that, you know, she kicked him out and he left and he stayed gone. But the fight itself, wasn't a huge surprise. Yeah. You had, you had gotten used to that over the years. Yeah, definitely. Um, it was a very frequent occurrence. So did you or your sister at any point think that divorce was a possibility or is that something that was not really in your minds?

It was kind of always in the back of our minds. We. My, my dad came from a divorced family. My mom came from a very together family. So in, in her mind it was never a thing, but it's something that my dad grew up with. Uh, and so we knew that, you know, we had seen it with our grandparents, so we knew it was a thing and it could potentially happen for us too.

So we were kind of prepared, but also not because there isn't really any way to prepare for that. Yeah. I don't know if I really answered that, but no, no, that makes sense. And one thing that is kind of obvious, I hope it's obvious to everyone listening. The divorce is obviously, or the separation I should say is obviously the fracture point, but there's usually so much that leads up to it.

And when we're talking about divorce, when we're talking about separation, we're including that, we're not just saying this one isolated event that just happened out of nowhere. Cause it wasn't, it wasn't random. Right. So, so no, I totally get that. And that's interesting that your dad comes from that background as well.

Um, I'm sure you're aware, you know, statistically, if you come from a divorced family, you're more likely to get divorced, which is kinda scary. Yeah. But it's true. Yeah. His parents it's all over my family. His parents are divorced. Both of his brothers have gotten divorced. There's only, my mom is one of seven.

Um, and of the four brothers that have gotten married, only one hasn't gotten divorced. So it's, it's everywhere. . I'm so sorry. Yeah. It's it's been interesting. yeah, no, no doubt. Yeah. I'm so sorry that you had to go through all this. And I was curious, yeah, following that day, when they separated, how did you react?

Well, that day, of course, I'm fairly sure that I probably went into my room and I cried, um, a normal reaction for me, I guess. But after that day, I, I think I kind. Turned, those almost turned those emotions off because, you know, I went to school the next day and I was like, oh yeah, you know, my dad isn't living at home anymore.

My parents are splitting up. Like it's actually happening. You know, my teachers, my friends, you know, all acted like it. Wasn't, wasn't a big deal. It was very normal, you know? The divorce rate is so high, it's nothing new. So I was seeing that reaction. I was like, oh, okay. Well everybody seems to think it's normal.

I need to act like it's normal. Like that I'm not affected by this because clearly I shouldn't be based on how everybody else is reacting. So, yeah. So I just, you know, I put those feelings weighted down and pretend that everything was fine to keep everybody thinking that everything was fine. Yeah, no, I, I hear that a lot and I know one of the things.

That you've said is, and, and so many children of divorce have said, it's almost like we feel like something's wrong with us. Mm-hmm for feeling the way that we do because of everyone else's reaction is usually like, oh, I mean, it's not a big deal. Right. Yeah. C could you talk about that a little bit? Did, did you feel like throughout your high school years, did you feel that something was wrong with you because you were so hurt by it and everyone else was kind of making light of it?

Definitely. Yeah, it was, it was very confusing because you know, all of my uncles that have gotten divorced, their kids were younger when it happened. So when my parents split. My cousins were like, oh yeah, you know, it happens, we're fine. You know, it's no big deal. Mm-hmm um, all of my friends' parents were together.

Um, and they were like, yeah, you know, that sucks. But we can't relate because our parents are together and all the adults in my life. And I will say I'm, I'm sure the reason that they tried to put such a, it's not a big deal spin on it is to. Make me feel better and you know, like it, wasn't such a big deal and I didn't need to get too upset about it, but it did make me feel like, oh, okay.

You know, literally everybody that I'm coming across is saying, this is not a big deal, so why am I struggling? Why am I so upset? Why am I grieving this? And you know, after, you know, a couple weeks, nobody was checking in to say, oh, you know, how are you doing with this? Mm-hmm , you know, are you still.

Struggling with what's going on with, you know, missing your parents, being together with missing your dad, being outta the house. It's just like, it almost like it never happened. Mm-hmm , you know, it's like, no, what it did happen and I'm, I'm hurting and I'm struggling. And you know, it was like shouting into the wind, you know, I could hear myself, but you know, nobody else was hearing me.

So yeah, definitely a lot of confusion and feeling like, I think the big thing I felt was I'm too emotional. Like I'm too sensitive. I shouldn't be so. That I'm feeling all of this. I can relate in some of the stories that I've heard are so similar to yours, we feel like, like you said, you know, I shouldn't be this sensitive.

I shouldn't react this way. I should be more resilient. Mm-hmm . And, but if you look at it objectively, your family is falling apart. And as, as one person said, who. Wrote their story for ReSTOR. They said I was watching my family die. Yeah. And that's a very real loss. And so to anyone listening, you know, I hope you know that it is a big deal.

It does matter. And different people have different reactions to it. Of course mm-hmm but it's so important that we just acknowledge the fact that. This is a hard thing. This is not supposed to happen. Right. And the fact that it does happen, uh, even in cases where it's, you know, necessary for the safety of the spouse or the children, it's always a tragedy.

And it always negatively impacts us the children, even if we don't see those impacts come out right away in our lives. That's what the research shows is. I'm sure you're aware is that often, you know, we do have some short-term impact, but, uh, the long-term effects are the ones that usually impact us the most.

They, they come out the most, they're the most obvious. Right. So, so I think it's a good reminder for, for everyone listening that, you know, it's, it's okay to grieve that loss. It's okay to. Feel that hurt and there's nothing wrong with you if you do definitely normal. So how did you see your parents' separation, uh, affect you in the years that followed?

Like I mentioned, there was a lot of, you know, pushing those emotions down, trying to deny that I was hurting because, you know, I felt like it wasn't normal. So the following year, my senior year of high school, my, my grandma, her cancer came back and it had spread and she ended up passing away that December.

About a year after my parents split up. So, you know, that grief on top of the grief of losing my intact family kind of pushed things over the edge. And I got very depressed. Unfortunately, you know, I, I struggled a little bit with self harm and suicidal thoughts. and yeah, I, I really hit rock bottom that year.

So that was a big, a big issue that thankfully ended up being resolved. I found a counselor during high school who really helped me work through a lot of that. I had very supportive friends then, but it was, it was such a big thing. And I think at the time I didn't realize that a lot of my hurt was coming from my parents splitting up.

I was like, no, I'm, you know, that's normal that they. So I must be so depressed and upset because my grandma died. So this is all stemming from that. And obviously that wasn't the case. . So while I did, you know, talk a little bit about the divorce with my counselor at that time, it wasn't the main focus. The main focus was the depression and.

You know the loss of my grandma. Sure. So it got out a little bit, but it was still there. And the pushing the emotions down was still happening. So that lasted about six months to a year. And that, that rock bottom just kept going. I eventually got out of it through a lot of prayer, a lot of talking. And I think part of what helped was going off to college and getting away from it kind of getting away from, you know, The fights that were still happening at home.

I mean, OB obviously not together at home, but you know, over the phone between the two of them. So that was a big thing. And I definitely think I spent a lot of time relying too much on my high school friends where I said, okay, I'm struggling. I can't go to my parents. So I'm going to put all of my, myself into my friendships and.

You know, hope that these last, because you know, the, the foundation of my family just fell apart. So I'm making a new foundation of my friends. Mm-hmm and of course that's not the greatest thing to do because you know, sometimes things happen and friendships fall apart and then you're, you know, left without a foundation again.

Sure. Which I did, unfortunately. Yeah. So there's just a lot of, a lot of grief, a lot of depression and a lot of putting my faith and almost myself worth into other people. So that's, yeah, that was the kind of the short term effect for me. And did you find in your relationships and your friendships, you were looking for your value from those people?

Is that a good way to say it? Definitely. This is actually something I've been talking to. New counselor about, I spent so much of my childhood starting at such a young age, trying to play peacemaker between my parents. That I had a hard time finding my own identity and finding my own value because I found my value in keeping the peace between them.

So when that no longer worked, I was like, okay, what is my value? Then if, if the value that I thought I had keeping my parents together, isn't there. Do I have value at all? Mm-hmm . And so then I went to my friends and said, okay, maybe if I am the perfect friend and I do everything I can to keep these friendships, maybe my value.

You know, in these friendships, but of course that's not how value works. So , did you find that your friendships crossed boundaries and got unhealthy because of the way that you looked at them? For sure. Yeah. I think I relied too heavily on some of the friendships for a lot of emotional support that, that I wasn't getting from my parents.

But of course, you know, 16, 17, 18 year olds, can't be that emotional support for you, especially when you're going through something. So, so emotional. So yeah, there, there definitely were boundaries crossed where, you know, I would confide something in somebody and then go back later and realize, oh, I shouldn't have confided that in them because you know, what are they gonna do with that?

You know, they're the same age as I am. They don't understand it any better than I do. I saw that throughout the years with me too, there were friendships that I had, especially with girls that, uh, just. Getting unhealthy, not in the sense that, you know, it was completely toxic, but boundaries were crossed and I was relying on them, just like you said, there sort of needs that I had legitimate needs that I had, that I, that weren't getting filled at home mm-hmm and, uh, yeah.

Caused a lot of issues in my friendships and ended up, um, really ending some of them. Yeah. Yeah. I can relate for sure. Did you have, aside from your, the counselor you got, did you have any mentors throughout that time? I'm just curious. I did actually. There I was in a youth group at that time. And one of my good friends in my youth group, I ended up getting very close to his mom, just the nicest woman.

And when I could, I would go over and I would spend time at their house because it just, it felt like it almost felt like home because I mean, not like my home, but you know, felt very homey because. She and her husband were, you know, they were communicating, they were very loving. They were very, you know, very focused on not only their marriage, but their kids and what their kids needed and just very present to each other and what everybody needed.

And yeah, I spent a lot of time, a lot of dinners over at their house. Just kind of watching their relationships and being like, wow, This is amazing. Like, what is, how does this happen? You know, and yeah, so I got a lot of, a lot of love and support from her and from the whole family. And it was definitely, really cool to see, you know, a healthy relationship that works through their issues and, and really puts each other first.

I wanna talk about that more, uh, in a little bit, but before we get there, if you're okay with it, I'd like to talk a little bit about the, what you were looking for. In the self-harm and in the suicidal thoughts, we don't have to go into great detail by any means, but I'm just curious. Why was that attractive?

Why was that something that you found an escape in the, the self-harm for sure was for, it would, it would kind of depend on the day. It was either because I was feeling so much grief, so much emotion that I needed some way. Get it out in a way that wouldn't draw attention to me, I guess, like, I, I would be at home and I would have all these pent up feelings.

I was like, okay, well, I can't scream. I can't cry because mom is right down. And I don't want her to know, you know, how much trouble I'm having because she's having her own issues. So then that would happen. Or it would be that I had kind of shut those emotions off and I was like, okay, I feel nothing. I need to feel something.

Hmm. Um, whether it's pain or what, I just need to feel. Like I'm alive basically. Instead of like this, you know, this zombie kind of walking around. Yeah. Just feeling numb. Yeah, exactly. And then the, the suicidal thoughts were just, it was, it mostly happened right after one of those high school friendships fell apart.

And I was like, okay, I lost my parents. I don't have that foundation. I lost this friend that I had relied so much on. And he was such a big part of my life. And I was just at a loss. I was like, I don't know how to move on from here. I. You know, if I'm failing all of these relationships, what's the point to keep going basically.

Um, like if I can't keep a relationship together, what am I doing here? Yeah. So then it became, I just want to, you know, I just wanna get away. I don't wanna be here kind of thing. Oh, I get it. And one thing that I've heard so often when it comes to. Suicide and suicidal thoughts is it's not so much that we don't wanna live anymore.

It's that we don't wanna live with the pain that we're experiencing. Exactly. So it sounds like that's where you were at, for sure. Yeah. And it going back to what you said before about finding your value and your friendships and your relationships, someone listening to that may think like, oh, you know, it's just something in your head.

It's just some mental thing that you have to deal with. Mm-hmm but right here, you're approving that. No, that has. Consequences. It has a serious impact on so much more than in this case. Even harming yourself, having the thoughts. You would potentially take your own life. So where we find our value matters, that's the point I'm getting at here, doesn't it?

Yep. If you lose what you're putting your value in and you feel that you don't have value anymore, then that leads to all these issues. Because if you feel like you don't have value, then what's the point basically. Totally. Yeah, man. There's so much to say in that. One of one thought that comes to mind is just in our culture, especially American culture.

I know there's people listening all over the world, but especially in American culture and I think a lot. Other cultures as well. We judge our value off of our usefulness. Yep. And so if, you know, if you or I are disabled or we can't work, or we can't do something that regular people can do, then we tend to think those people aren't worth as much.

Right. And that's so tragic because our value doesn't come from what we can do or how useful we. But just in the fact that we are human, like you're a human person, I'm a human person. We're valuable, we're unrepeatable, we're unique. And it's important that we talk about that, that we hear that any further thoughts on that?

Yeah. That's, that's something that I've definitely taken to counseling and. Something that my counselor has said to me many times is you're, you know, you're worth and your value. Yeah. Like you said, does not come from what you can do for other people. It comes from who you are as a person. And for, you know, those of us who are religious, your value comes from God, from being made in his image and likeness.

No, that's beautiful. And that's such a. Better foundation to build your life upon, to build your identity on than mm-hmm this kind of shifting sand of your usefulness, your relationships, whatever might be mm-hmm because that never ends well, cuz eventually you're not always gonna be good looking. You're not always really gonna have a lot of money.

You're not always gonna be popular in every circle that you run in. Yeah. All these things that we usually associate with our identity, with our value. They could be stripped away from us really at any moment. And what's left, what's left after that. I've had to wrestle with that too. It's like, okay. You know, if I'm no longer able to be a successful businessman, if I'm no longer to be athletic, if no longer able to.

You know, keep some good books. Let's say , um, what what's left and, and I think, yeah, I've challenged people on the podcast before. Think about that. Think about where you, where you get your value from. And Aaron, I could tell that you've, you've done that. You've, you've gone there and you're, I'm sure. Still wrestling with it cuz I know I am definitely the depression.

Let's talk about the depression a little. Explain that a little bit more. I, I think, I mean, I get it, but I want to make sure everyone listening gets kind of how it led up to that. It seems that there was just so much going on and you felt stuck if, if I'm hearing you, right. That ended up leading you to depression.

Talk a little bit about what you were experiencing, what that looked like in practical terms. Like, were you locking yourself in, were you isolating yourself? Talk a little bit about depression, kind of thinking there's other people listening right now who are dealing with this, so, right. You know, I think so many of them can relate to your story.

And I know I've dealt with bouts of depression as well. And so I think it's, it's useful to hear your experience. So if you would, what, what was your experience with that? Yeah, like you said, it was, it was feeling stuck and having, yeah. Pushed down those feelings for so long and feeling, you know, like I didn't have any value or any worth.

And for me, it kind of showed itself obviously in, in the self-harm, um, and the suicidal thoughts, but also my, my first semester of college, uh, my, my roommates could tell you, I spent a good chunk of. My first semester in bed asleep, you know, lights off in the room, just asleep or just in bed, you know, on my laptop or something, but very rarely leaving my room.

I would, uh, I would skip classes. I would skip maths. I would skip, you know, social functions and I would just be, you know, in my room by myself. And I mean, I know it, it frustrated my roommates a little bit because they would come home and, you know, there I was, again, I just, I had so little energy and. So little drive.

I just, all I wanted to do was sleep. And I think I ended up losing five, 10 pounds, cuz I wouldn't go out to get food. Totally. No energy, no drive to do anything was basically what it was for me. That's so hard. I'm sorry. And it sounds just extremely isolating. So I'm guessing loneliness when hand in hand with that.

Definitely it was kind of a. A vicious cycle, you know, I wouldn't go out and the loneliness loneliness would make it worse and yeah, just kept going. What helped you find some relief? Yeah, unfortunately, I wasn't able to find a counselor at Franciscan that I clicked with, but I met a couple of girls through my roommates at some point who.

Kind of kicked my butt. They were like, come on, you're getting outta bed. You're gonna go to mass with us. Um, you're gonna go to confession. You're gonna, um, you're gonna go to class, you're gonna eat food. You're going to, you know, go out and do the things that you need to do. You're gonna be social, which was a really big first step.

But the really big thing that did it for me was I went to, there were a couple of Tor sisters on campus who did a ministry called. I believe it's called Unbound, but I met up with them and I went through the whole, you know, prayer process with them. And I remember coming out feeling like a completely different person.

It was, it was really amazing. Wow. Yeah. So that was, that was the, the big thing for me. Okay. Wow. And it explain Unbound a little bit. I think I'm somewhat familiar, but just so everyone listening. At least the way I did it. I don't know if it's the typical way, but I met with two of the Franciscan sisters and we basically just spent an hour, hour or two kind of going back through my life a little bit sharing, you know, some of my suffering, some of, you know, the, not that it was a confession, but some of, you know, the sins that I was particularly stuck in the, you know, maybe I had guilt attached to, and then they.

Prayed through those things with me and really showed me like, yes, you had these sins that you were stuck in, but you can work on them. And yes, you know, you're, you're suffering through, you know, your parents putting up and your grandma passing away. But just because you're suffering doesn't mean you don't have value.

And it was basically, yeah, it was basically just taking all of the pain, all of the guilt and all of it and just giving it over to God then. Yeah. And feeling heard and seen. By these sisters and having them sit there for so long and pray with me and, you know, let me get all of it out was a, was a huge deal.

Just knowing that they, yeah, they saw me for who I was and. Didn't run away. yeah. I, I, I bet that was, I don't know if shocking is the right word, but just you, you weren't used to, that is what I'm getting at. You, you weren't used to someone kinda seeing the, the messiness inside of you and still loving you through that.

Cuz maybe this happened, maybe it didn't to you, but we often think that if I show someone how much I'm struggling, if I show someone. The bad things I've gotten into to, to cope. If I show someone, you know, the, the stupid mistakes I've made, then they're just gonna wanna run the other way. Right. I, I, I felt that throughout my life.

And, um, is that what you were experiencing? Definitely. Yeah. So then they come in and they're like, Hey, you know, you, you, you tell them, you open up to them, which I, I bet in itself was so freeing. So freeing. Yeah. Just getting that out. Yeah. And then not only did that happen, but. They were there with you and they didn't look down on you because of that, which is a really beautiful thing.

Yeah, definitely. I hope everyone can experience that at some point because that's, and, and we're gonna get to healing tips in a bit, but that's one thing that, um, that I found healing that so many people have found healing and really is a key. To healing. One of the tips of healing is like you said, getting it out and then having people just receive that and love you through it.

Not run the opposite way. Yeah, it's a beautiful story. I wanna go back to your friends that that's awesome that they kind of kicked your butt. I love that. they? They, uh, yeah. We're good friends. Yeah, because we, we all knew that. So people listening, if you have someone who is dealing with that, I, I don't wanna say that that's always the best thing to do because sometimes there's some deeper chemical imbalance that, you know, may require some more serious help, but yeah.

Fake it till you make it. I, I think that's a, yeah. Good thing. And that's kind of what you were doing, right? You were just forcing yourself to get outside of the room, go out, do all these things like, like you said, and, and eventually, uh, did, did that help you to kind of return to that healthy place where you were doing those things?

Definitely. Yeah. Um, yeah, to this day I am. Just beyond thankful for them. Yeah. And I think it helped knowing that they wanted me to come out and spend time with them and, you know, have fun. Cause I think a lot of times for people, especially who are struggling with depression and especially people who are children of divorce, We sometimes have that feeling of being unwanted.

Not that our parents don't want us, but a lot of times when they're going through their issues, you know, we kind of fall by the wayside a little bit and it can leave us feeling unwanted. So, you know, having friends come to you and say, Hey, We'd love if you came out and did this, like, oh, cool. Like they want to spend time with me.

They wanna be my friend. This is awesome. Yeah, it was, it was a big deal and definitely reminded me. Oh, okay. You know, look, they see something in me that they want to spend time with. So it started building up that value again in my eyes and yeah, definitely was. The big stepping stone to getting back to myself.

That's awesome. I love that. And I love what you said, like wanting to feel wanted. Mm-hmm feeling unwanted because of the breakdown of your family. Yeah. I totally relate with that because my, my parents did not intend this at all. I know that, and I, I think 99% of parents don't intend this when they get divorced, but it leaves us feeling abandoned often.

It leaves us feeling unwanted and those were things I couldn't have put it into words when I was 11. But looking back now. Yeah, I felt extremely unwanted and. Part of the healing process for me, like you, like, you just really beautifully said was having people genuinely want me not want something out of me, but just want me for who.

Exactly. Yeah. Turning to coping. So we've, we've kind of jumped around and we've already touched on some things, but what were some, what were some ways that you, you coped with the pain aside from what we've already covered? Cuz we've covered quite a bit. And uh, if you would, you know, you talked about some of the unhealthy ways, what were some of the healthy ways and were there any other unhealthy ways I'll I'll do the.

I'm one of those people that likes to do the less good things and then move on to the good things like end on a good note. Yeah. So I'll go with the less healthy things first. Um, aside from the ones that I've mentioned, the other big, not so great coping me mechanism for me was never saying no. And just allowing myself to be kind of a doormat to kind of be walked all over, because yeah, again, that stems from, you know, being a child of divorce, you, you wanna be that peacemaker.

You want to make things easier for your parents and make things well, cuz yeah, if you make things easier for your parents, it makes it easier for you sometimes. So you kind of learn the more I can make other people happy. The better it'll be. So I, yeah, I had. The hardest time saying no, I could never stand up for myself.

So, yeah, that was a, that was a big thing for me that I just could not say no, even to things that I should have said no to. Yeah. So that was a big one as far as good coping mechanisms. I, of course, can't say enough about counseling that. I started going again, three or four years ago. I, I had a friend of mine from high school that I was very close to passed away and I, I felt the grief coming back in and I felt myself spiraling again.

And I was like, okay, I've been here before. I'm not doing that again. And I'm going back to counseling and that's been. Yeah. That's been such a huge, huge thing, cuz it's so funny. You, you go to counseling and you're sharing, you know, your heart and yourself with this other person. And a lot of times the things that they say to you are like the helpful things that they tell you when they say it, it seems so obvious.

And so you're like, why did I not think of that myself? You know? Yeah. So that's always really cool to be like, oh, okay. Yeah. That makes sense. It just clicks. It just clicks. There's something I've been there. um, so yeah, counseling has been a huge thing. And the other thing that's been really big for me, I've been taking ballroom dance lessons and as weird as the sounds, that's been a huge coping mechanism for me because.

It's a really good way to like build confidence in yourself because, you know, you have to be very present, you know, with your, you know, your own body and you know what you're doing in that moment. And, you know, being able to see what you can do is always a big confidence boost. But the other big thing for me at least is it's a big teacher of trust for me.

Um, because I'm dancing with this instructor and I have to trust him that he's not going to like drop me on the floor or, you know, Make some mistake that's gonna hurt me, you know? Yeah. Um, and you know, trust that he's not gonna be like, oh, you know, you're doing that move wrong. You look ridiculous kind of thing.

So it's been a big, a big trust exercise. And I mean, at least for me, and I, I think you've mentioned before too, is trust is a big problem sometimes for children of divorce. Totally. So that's a, that's a big thing for me. and of course, prayer has always. A big thing, just working through whatever issues I know when, when this separation and everything first started, I had a hard time going into prayer and saying, God, I am angry.

Like, I am angry at you for letting this happen. I'm just angry because I was like, okay, God is a father. And if, you know, I went to, you know, my parents and said, I'm angry at you for this, you know, that could potentially cause an issue. So what makes me think I can go to God, the father and say, Hey, I'm angry at you, you know, and not expect bad things to happen.

So yeah, growing in that and being able to go into prayer and say, Hey God, you know, this really stinks. What's going on here has been a really good coping mechanism. So no, I totally get it. I've never heard it said like that though. You know, bringing the anger to God. That's a really good point, cuz I know that's so true that we see, you know, when our kids, our parents are the most powerful creatures that we know.

And so we tend to think that if they're like this, then God must be like this too. And so, and that, and that it's, it's kind of amazing how that extends out over our lives. Even though, like you said, some of these things. When you say 'em out loud, it's like, oh, that's so obvious, but it's not as obvious in our minds for some reason, cuz this stuff Isly ingrained in us.

So it, it makes so much sense. I love what you said there. One of the things about trust, I was talking with a friend of mine recently and we were, he comes from a broken family as well. And we were just saying as one of my other guests in the show said, when something that's so fundamental as your family, when something's so core to your identity, Your parents breaks apart.

You tend to think, well, what won't break apart. Yeah. And in a way it kind of makes us paranoid or it makes us think that, oh gosh, I cannot trust anyone. Mm-hmm . Cause if the people who I'm supposed to be able to trust the most didn't make it. And that ended badly. Then who can I trust? Right. And that's, so that's such a hard thing to wrestle with and I've even, you know, being married now, I've had to UN undo, untie, unwind a lot of those really kind of unhealthy defense mechanisms that I've had.

And my wife and I are pretty open about this, but yeah, if she could talk to you, you know, she would say it can be trying at times. And it's frustrating for me too, because, um, it's something that I wanna be able to trust so much more, but it's almost like I just whip my shield up and. Because it has become so second nature to me and we've done counseling and that's been so helpful.

And so we're definitely in a better place now and always striving to, to grow. But, um, but yeah, it, it has so many impacts over the years that you wouldn't think of in that moment when your parents. Break up. Yeah. Going to healing. So you already mentioned so much of what you did to heal and, uh, was there anything else, I guess you would add?

Yeah. Just, just learning to be better about, you know, establishing boundaries has been big, getting better about saying no, especially when I should. I actually. I met with a family friend earlier this year. He's a, he's a deacon. So it was a little bit of a spiritual direction kind of thing. And we had been talking about like discerning, you know, religious life versus married life.

And he said to me, you know, as far as you know, because your parents are split, what is keeping you from being able to discern your vocation? Like what about them? Is making this difficult. And I remember being shocked by that question that, you know, he would think to ask, oh, you know, how is your parents separation impacting, you know, your ability to discern what you wanna do with your life?

And I remember I just started crying and I said, I just need to know that they're going to be okay if I can't be, you know, readily available to them 24 7. And, and he said to me, he said, it is not your job to fix your. You need to let them be the parent and you need to be the child. And I was like, oh, OK.

like, wow, that really, you know, hit home. So learning, it is not my job to parent. My parents was. Was a huge deal for me. That's so good. And I think we all need to hear that because we struggle with that. Don't we? Why? Yes. Why do you think that is? Why, why do we feel such a responsibility? Because I, I think it's a great intention.

I think it's a beautiful thing to wanna help our parents and take care of our parents. And there are healthy ways to do that. I'm not saying we shouldn't mm-hmm but, um, yeah. Why, why do you think we fall into that so much? Really an extreme, I would guess it's because, I mean, at least from my experience, of course, from the fighting and from when they were going through this operation, you always feel like you're kind of walking on eggshells around both of them.

So you are essentially kind of parenting them because you're like, okay, well this is what this person, this parent needs. This is what this parent needs, because they're not speaking or they're fighting. Nobody can give them what they need except. So we take on that parenting role because we feel like there's nobody else that'll do it.

Totally. Yeah. No, it makes sense. There's this void that needs to be filled and we just step into cuz we love our parents. Yep, exactly totally makes sense. There was one, uh, book I was reading on children of divorce. That said there's this 14 year old boy who yeah, the mom left and he stopped going to school and he started doing chores around the house, cuz his mom stayed home and took care of the house.

Mm-hmm he started shopping. He would cook. And the reason he did that was because his dad was just totally broken by his mom leaving. And so he just assumed that role cuz someone had to. Yeah. And it's almost, so it's almost lot of necessity in some cases to, uh, to step into that role. And I've certainly seen.

You know my life with my siblings and I, I think another part of it too. And I'm gonna let you comment on this. If, if you'd like, is that we see our parents hurting too. Like, like you touched on mm-hmm and we just, they, they need support. They genuinely need support. Right. And so, and then we think because they need support, I'm the one who needs to give it mm-hmm and, uh, all these things play into the fact that we feel the need to, to parent our parents.

Would you agree? Definitely. I I'm lucky that my, my parents were still in a place where they could, you know, take care of physical needs, like the cooking and the cleaning and the getting to school and all that. It's more like, I felt like I had to jump in on like the emotional parenting, almost like my mom was struggling a lot because, you know, she didn't come from, you know, a separated, divorced parent, uh, family, and she didn't understand what was happening.

And so she was really struggling on top of, you know, her marriage falling apart. Yeah. And you know, my dad was, you know, having his own issues with it. Definitely stepping in to fill what we see as a void in their life. Especially if they're not going to see a counselor or somebody to talk through their issues with, you know, like, okay, well they're not talking to anybody that leaves me kind of thing.

No, it totally makes sense in, uh, restores online community, someone posted not too long ago about. A situation where basically, and I'm not equating it with this, but it is related where a parent almost looks at their, one of their children as their spouse. Mm-hmm and, and not, not in necessarily like a physical, like sexual way, but emotionally.

And it was a podcast episode where it's from the podcast, the place we find ourselves, which is just awesome. I I've mentioned it multiple times in the show, but you. Listen to that, but it, he, he called it Adam Young, this counselor who runs this podcast, he called it subtle sexual abuse. And again, I'm not equating what we're talking about here with that, but there is components of it.

And in, in some cases it is exactly what happens. And basically what he explains is that it gets to the point where it's so unhealthy that. The spouse who has these legitimate needs, emotional needs specifically in, in what he was talking about. They tend to go to their children to fill these needs instead of going to their spouse, because if they're separated, they just can't.

Or even if they're together, the marriage can be in a bad condition where they don't go to each other. And so it's really, it creates this really unhealthy dynamic. And it's just so interesting because it's so subtle and it almost feels like to the child, who's the one on the receiving end of kind of acting like a spouse.

It feels like you're doing something good for your parent, Adam Young. He explains it. And he quotes different sources too, to just show he play that out is really damaging, really damaging mm-hmm . And so I'll throw that episode in the show notes, if you guys wanna listen to it, but isn't that fascinating?

Definitely. And yeah, it's very true. If, you know, if you don't set up those healthy boundaries with your parents, whether it be, you know, emotionally. Sometimes financially, depending on the family, whatever boundaries yeah. That can quickly become a real issue. Totally. And this is not to say we don't love our parents who wanna take care of them.

No, we totally do. And, and I know I do, but there's been times where one parent or the other wasn't in the best state of mind or was struggling because like we've already said, it's painful to go through the breakdown in your marriage to go through a divorce. But I I've had to say, Hey, I can't provide this need for you.

You need to go to your. You need to go to your siblings, you need to go, you know, to your family, you need to go to a counselor, a pastor, spiritual director, something, someone like that who can provide for you in that way, who can offer that emotional support that I can't give you. I, like you said, like the deacon told you I'm the child.

I can't be doing this. This is not my place. And, um, it, it took a while for me to get to that point. But having that boundary now, Has helped me to have a healthier relationship with my parents, which has been healing in itself too. So it's not like, you know, when I say this stuff, sometimes parents like get turned off and like, you know, you're turning parents against their kids or kids against their parents, I should say.

And that's not the case at all. Like we want. If it's possible for the parents and the children to have really healthy relationships, but you can't do that. If the boundaries aren't in place, like you're saying so totally right. Totally on the same page with you, uh, for that, anything to add? No, I think, yeah, I think that about covered it.

Yeah. anything else you wanted to say about healing? It is a process and sometimes it is really painful. I will let you know that right now, but it's oh my goodness. When you start getting in the healing and everything, it's so good. I. I look back on my life, back in my first semester of college. And I just, I remember how just that feeling of despair that I had and how horrible that was.

And, you know, I see where I am in this healing process now. And the fact that I was able to like find joy in life again is amazing. So yeah. So do the work and start that healing and yeah. It's, it's so worth it, so worth it. Yeah. And you don't don't know that, like if you were to go back and talk to yourself, would've been hard to even believe.

I bet that you. Get to the spot you are right now. Oh, definitely. I would never, in a million years of guests, I would've ended up here so anyone listening who feels really, really down who feels so broken, think of Erin's story and just think of the progressions she's made. And I wanna go deeper down that path of, you know, you're, you're obviously.

We're always in the process of healing. I think, I think it's somewhat of an infinite game that we always keep playing someone like fitness. Like you never reach the top of the fitness speak and be like, okay, I'm fit. I'll never do anything with fitness. yeah. Hopefully you keep taking care of your body.

Um, but the same is true in healing. I think as we go on through life, our brokenness will surface in different ways or we need to deal with things. And so we continue on it. So what I'm saying is we're always a work in progress. But would you explain a little bit more how your life is, is different now that you've been walking down this path so much more joy, like being able to see the little things and be like, wow, like that's so beautiful.

You know, life is actually really good. Like there is happiness. There's like just awesome things happening. Being able to not get dragged back down into, you know, that. Depressive spiral where, you know, one bad thing happens and you're like, okay, you know, I'm, I'm rock bottom again. I, you know, how do I get back up from here?

Yeah. Just having hope, I think is probably the biggest thing, because when you are in, when you are depressed and when you are suffering so much with, you know, a separation or a loss or a divorce or whatever, there, there is no hope. You're, you know, you're at the bottom of this well going, you know, I don't see, you know, the light of day, I'm just down here by myself.

What am I doing? So yeah, now that I've been through some of that healing, I'm like, okay, I, I see it does get better. I do have hope now, like, and I know it's gonna keep getting better. The more work I put into it, like, yes. Still gonna really stink sometimes. And, um, the healing process is still gonna hurt sometimes, but knowing what the healing can bring is, is such a major, major thing.

So it's worth it. You would say absolutely. shifting gears a little bit. Let's talk about relationships as I'm sure. You know, usually the biggest effect on us, on the children is on our relationships. So when our parents separat a divorce, The research has shown that, you know, our relationships are affected the most.

And so I'm just curious, you've already mentioned it a bit, a little bit, but spelled out a little bit more for us, how did it affect your relationships? It's been difficult because before I realized, you know, what this separation was doing to, you know, my ability to trust and believe that things can last, I, I couldn't figure out why my relationships weren't last.

And it was really frustrating. I was like, what is going on? Like, you know, I, I can't keep a guy, you know, and I remember there was, there was one time I was dating this guy. We had been dating for about a year and a half. And he, he kind of gave me an ultimatum. He said something along the, the lines of, you know, you know, you have to start doing this or one of us is gonna have to end this and I'm gonna be super real with you.

My emotions just, it was almost like a light switch. They just shut off. And I was like, I have no feelings. Like I, I have no feelings and I, you know, I tried to work through that, but I couldn't trust him after that. I was like, okay. You know, if he's telling me that if I don't fix this about myself, he's gonna end things.

Then you know, what's the deal here. And so it lasted like another week or two, and then we broke up, but that was a big wake up call for me that I have trust issues when it comes to relationships, I don't trust. Someone is going to stick around. Like, no matter how much they tell me, oh, you know, I'm in it for the long haul.

Mm-hmm, , there's always that little voice in the back of my head going, are they though, you know, look at mom and dad, they got married, you know, they promised to be there, you know, in sickness and in health until death, do they part. And that didn't happen. So I was like, so can I actually trust that someone is going to stick it out through the rough patches and that also kind of led into, so, you know, there's the trust issues that would end things, or I would feel like I had to be the perfect girlfriend to keep somebody around because as long as I'm keeping them happy, they're not gonna go anywhere.

But of course, if you keep putting aside who you are to fit the mold that another person wants you to fit, it's exhausting. Yeah. It's, it's really, really tiring. And then you almost grow resentful of them, you know, even though it was your choice to, you know, try to be that perfect person for them and change who you are on a fundamental level for.

Even though they didn't ask you to do that. You, you resent them for feeling like you need to in order to keep them there. So that's been another big thing. Yeah. That's so hard just wearing that mask, being who you think you need to be instead of being authentic and saying, Hey, this is where I'm at.

That's so hard. Do, do you think that's something that we learn in our families then, because we often feel. I know, I felt that I had to wear different masks depending on what parent I was with or what side of the family. Oh, definitely. You know, my dad is tends to be more of the, the jokester of the family.

So, you know, the more I can be funny and happy around him, you know, the better I think it's gonna be. And, and my mom. You know is more of a, it's not that she's super serious, but you know, she's more spiritual. And so that, I feel like the more I talk to her about, you know, the faith and other things like that, the better our relationship is gonna be.

So, yeah. So I think, you know, we, we see our families fall apart and we go, okay. Well, I don't want to, like, at the very least I don't wanna lose my individual relationship with these people. So I need to put on whatever mask they wanna see to make sure that I keep this person in my life because we saw a situation where they broke apart.

These people who I love, and I wanna keep a relationship with ended a very important relationship that they had. And I know. So many of us are just afraid that's gonna happen to us too. And like you said, we bring it into our relationships, then our dating relationships, our marriages, and, uh, yeah, it that's toxic.

It's hard. It's exhausting. Like you said, one should have to do that. Did you, have you found that. You've been able to, to work through a lot of that. Is that something that's still in progress? I know I'm asking you to be pretty vulnerable with me here, but I'm, I'm just, I'm just curious, like, how's that going?

Cause like, I, you know, like I shared with you, but something I'm still working on in my own marriage at this point. Right. Um, yeah. It's definitely something I'm still working on and you know, I'm still. Picking up little things about, oh, you know, this is something that I do in a relationship because of the separation.

And it's something that I have to work on. I definitely can't say that, you know, I've got a down pat. Um, it's definitely something that I'm still working on. Yeah. Because trust is such a, such a huge thing. It's really hard to learn to do that when you haven't for so long. So yeah, it's, it's a struggle and I'm, I've found that.

Now that I know that I struggle with it. I'm much more aware of it. Not that I'm aware of it all the time and I, you know, I still have issues in relationships. Um, but. If it comes to my head, you know, when I'm doing something that stems from that trust issue, I can be like, oh, okay. You know, this isn't, you know, this isn't something that they did.

This is what I'm perceiving because of, you know, what I've experienced. So yeah, it helps to. Know that it's going on inside your head to kind of help you combat all of that awareness is the foundation. It's the first step to take in order to, to really overcome those mechanisms that we've learned, those automatic reactions.

Mm-hmm what words of encouragement would you give to, to someone who, who feels broken? Who's struggling in life. In different ways, um, in large part due to their parents separation or divorce, what advice would you have for them? Well, my big advice is to know that it's okay not to be okay with your parents separating or divorcing, just because you know, other people in your life might act like it's normal and it's okay.

It doesn't mean that you have. Put on that happy mask and pretend that you're okay if you're not, because it's okay to not be okay. You know, if you need help ask for it, you know, find friends that, you know, even if they can't relate, find friends that at least, you know, will sit there and hear you. And like you said earlier, see you for the person you are and not judge you for, you know, your struggles and everything.

And if you're a person of. Seek God. And don't be afraid to say, Hey God, you know, this really stinks. And I'm mad. You know, I'm mad at my parents. I'm mad at you for letting this happen, you know, because you know, he's not, he he's divine. He's not going to get upset and gun you, if you say, Hey, God, you know, I'm angry.

Like I said earlier, to learn to say no and, and set boundaries for yourself. It's. It's really hard and I'm still working on that, but that's a, that's a really, really big thing to, to help with the healing process. And if possible, after, you know, you create those boundaries and everything, if. You are in a place with one or both of your parents where you can share your feelings about what's going on.

Definitely do it. I I've been able to share a little bit with my dad of how I'm feeling and, and you know, how things have been for me. And, and that's made a huge difference in our relationship and, and how he handles different. Situations with this operation. So yeah, if you can really talk to your parents about it, thank you so much for, for sharing your story.

It's always kind of a scary thing. We talked before we started recording about how, you know, you're sharing your story with people that you'll never meet. and your, your name's attached to this. So it's out there. So guys listening, everyone listening, it takes a lot of courage to do this. So Aaron, thank you so much for, for being so vulnerable for sharing your story with us and what you've learned along the way.

It's really good advice that you've given. And I hope everyone listening can take what you said to heart and put it into action because that's really, it's. It's good to think about these things. It's good to talk about them, but we really need to act on them and that's when we'll. The changes in our lives.

Like, like you've seen Aaron, how can people connect with you or follow you? So I have Instagram and Facebook. Instagram is at Aaron Hasso and Facebook. It's just Aaron. Hasso, I'm cautious about who I, you know, accept follower requests from. But if you send me message and say, Hey, I heard you on the podcast, I wanna connect or whatever, I will absolutely 100% friend you or follow back or whatever.

Cool. And we'll throw that in the show notes for you guys. So you don't need to. Really appreciate you being here. Thank you so much for, uh, taking the time and for being so vulnerable. Yeah. Thank you, Erin is great. I really enjoyed speaking with her and I hope that was helpful for you guys. Definitely a lot of practical wisdom in that conversation that you can use to make changes in your life.

And like I said, in this show, now it's time to get to work. Don't just think about this stuff, act on it. And so my question for you is what's one or two things that really resonated with you from this episode. How can you act on it? Just take a few minutes to think about that. Once this episode is over, make a simple plan to do it and then get to work.

Just know that at restored we're rooting for you and we're here to help. If you need anything, if you wanna share your story like Erin did it just takes three easy steps. You can go to restored ministry.com/story. Again, that's restored ministry. Ministry is just singular. Dot com slash story. Once you go there, you'll fill out a short form, just a short version of your story and take some time to do that.

Take a little bit of time to do that. And then once you submit it, we'll turn it into an anonymous blog article. And one of the benefits of doing that is just that it helps so much to get your story out of your head out of your chest and share it with someone, even if it's anonymous. And it helps others too, to hear your story, cuz it really gives them hope to know that they're not alone.

Again. You could do that by going to restored ministry.com. Slash story. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 16. Again, that's restored ministry.com/sixteen. That's the number 16. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful, please subscribe and share this podcast episode with someone that you know who could use it.

And always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

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#015: Navy SEAL: Calm is Contagious | Mike Sarraille

Who knows the most about staying calm during chaotic situations? A combat experienced Navy SEAL.

In this episode, you'll get the advice of Navy SEAL Mike Sarraille on staying calm during a crisis like the Coronavirus.

Mike Sarraille.jpg

Who knows the most about staying calm during chaotic situations? A combat experienced Navy SEAL.

In this episode, you'll get the advice of Navy SEAL Mike Sarraille on staying calm during a crisis like the Coronavirus.

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Coming Up: Episode #016: Everyone Acted Like My Parents’ Separation Wasn’t a Big Deal | Erin Hasso

Thanks for listening! Our next episode features the story of Erin Hasso.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

We're taking a break from our normal content because of everything going on with the coronavirus. There's a lot of fear, a lot of panic going around and we wanted to address it because in the midst of everything going on in the midst of the anxiety, that a lot of people are feeling, we really need to stay calm.

And so we thought, who can we ask for advice on that topic? Oncom in the midst of crazy situations. And so we thought who's experienced the most chaotic situations in the world. Let's get their. So we brought in an American hero, a Navy seal. Who's experienced a ton of combat, which is the most chaotic environment in the world.

So in this episode, you'll hear his advice and more on staying calm and reacting properly to a situation like the coronavirus. Our guest is Mike Elli. Mike is a retired us Navy seal officer, our graduate of the university of Texas. And now he's a leadership instructor, author and speaker and strategic advisor for echelon front.

I'll tell you more about them. In a second. Mike served in the military for a long time. He served 15 years as an officer in the seal teams and five years in the us Marine Corps as an enlisted recon Marine and scout. Snip. Mike served in seal team three task unit bruiser alongside Joco wiling and LA Babin.

They wrote the book extreme ownership with them. Mike led major combat operations that played a pivotal role in the battle of Ramat. In 2006, Mike was also the primary leadership instructor for all officers graduating from the seal training pipe. He was then selected for assignment to the joint special operations command, where he completed multiple combat deployments.

Mike's recipient of the silver star, six bronze stars, two defense meritorious service medals, and a purple heart. This guy is the real deal. He's a true hero. And he probably wouldn't like me to say that because he's so humble. Mike's the CEO of echelon. Overwatch a company that specializes in recruiting training and placement of veterans from the us special operations forces with companies seeking leaders with an extreme ownership mindset to build their ranks and dominate on their battlefields.

Mike brings incredible combat leadership experience and business acumen to the echelon front team, as well as unique insight and expertise on veteran transition and education programs. One thing you'll hear in the show is that Mike was a tier one operator. And what that means is he is a very, very elite man.

I would say more elite than the professional athletes in our world. A tier one operator is someone on the level of seal team six or Delta force. And so if you know anything about those guys, they are the best of the best. You'd never know it though, because Mike is an extremely humble man in the show.

You'll hear about the book that he just wrote called talent war. That's coming out in the middle of 2020. I'll tell you more about that at the end, how you can buy it. And we had some minor internet issues in this conversation. So I do apologize if things sound like they're a little bit choppy. We definitely take ownership of that on our end.

So here's my conversation with Mike Mike. It's an honor to have you here, sir. Thanks so much for taking the time to be with. Dude, Joey, thanks for having me. People are freaking out right now. There's a lot going on with this coronavirus. People are scared. They're worried, they're anxious, worried about how it'll affect them, how it'll affect the people that they love.

But they're also worried about how it'll affect their jobs, the economy, their finances, and so on. And I've heard a lot of people say, they're afraid that the 2008 recession is gonna repeat itself. And so just a lot of panic in the air. Unfortunately, the media is feeding that fear. And so I think now more than ever, people need to hear.

We have to stay calm. We need to keep a clear head. We can't let fear control us. Uh, but some people struggle with that. And so I wanted to bring you on wanted to get your advice as someone who's really been in the most chaotic environments in the world as a seal. And so my first question for you is, uh, what is your training and your combat experience taught you about sing, calm and reacting properly during a chaotic situation.

If, if you go back to the actual assessment in select. For special operations, which is, you know, what our version of the hiring process, it actually screens exactly for what, what, what you're describing is people that are, uh, have the ability to remain calm when push to their thresholds, to push to their, uh, their limits, special operations thrives in what we call a VUCA environment.

And what VUCA stands for is volatility. Uncertainty complexity and ambiguity, and it takes a unique individual to remain calm when in that environment. And, and quite frankly, uh, during global war terror, our special operators were, were thrust into those, uh, environments deployment after deployment, after deployment.

And so we look for a very unique individual that can remain calm. As you've often heard, you know, JCA willin in lay Babin, the co-authors of extreme ownership. Talk about an ineffective leader versus an effective leader. An ineffective leader is the one that loses their composure. During chaotic times.

And when the person you're following, uh, becomes chaotic, you tend to match, uh, their sort of temperament, nothing gets solved. Things, get worse with, uh, effective leaders on a battlefield. And what I've seen is those ones that remain calm. It's almost like a disease in itself. We, we have a phrase in the, in special operations community.

Is contagious. And if you, as a leader, in a position of authority are calm, your people will remain calm as well. You see a lot of people going after Trump, uh, right now for what I call a version of calmness. Uh, he didn't want to invoke fear. He's remained calm people, uh, you know, sort of characterize that as indecisiveness.

I, I don't view it as that at all. Mm-hmm the problem with people losing their composure is that the media is feeding. They're fierce. Media's not always your friend. We learned that on the battlefield, uh, the media was not our friend, so you gotta be cautious to who you're listening to and where you're getting your information as a whole Joey things.

Aren't all that bad. You know, structurally people are worried about, uh, the economy structurally the economy is fine. Mm-hmm this isn't a mortgage backed security crisis of 2008. There's. Uh, a pathogen that's being spread, uh, Corona that is, you know, affecting our ability to produce goods as well as, uh, driving consumer, uh, purchasing down, cuz people are now, you know, confined for their, to their homes, uh, more or less, but guys we're gonna rebound.

After we get past this, uh, the current counter measures that the government's recommending people with, you know, safety isn't seen or remaining home. Those are the appropriate measures to see if we can curb this as quickly as possible. But even if we're down, even if, uh, you know, productivity is down for a few months, guess what.

America will bounce back. The, the world of economy will, uh, bounce back. This just goes back to the days of world war II in England, remain calm and keep on things will be fine. Guys can agree more with everything that you said. Do you have, uh, do you have any stories about that thing that you said where calm leaders they're contagious and the opposite is absolutely true too.

I automatically go back to the, uh, the worst case scenarios that I. The first worst case scenario that I had was, uh, the day that, uh, Michael Monsour was, uh, was killed. He was our last mission during the battle of Vermadi. And, uh, we had actually cut the size of the platoon half the platoon was off preparing, uh, what we called these pallets with all our gear for redeployment back to the United States.

So we were at half Manning, which was not the, uh, the best call. And something I look back on, uh, frequently. So we went out with four seals and a few Iraqi soldiers. We occupied a position. There was another position. About 500 meters away with four seals and a few Iraqi soldiers. Uh, we were engaged in firefights throughout the day, supporting an army element that was clearing a very bad sector of Mai about midday while three, or I'm sorry.

Two of the other seals were sleeping. Mikey was awake on my snapper rifle, keeping security on a particular sector. I was, uh, you know, dozing in and outta sleep. And, uh, even though we were having conversations about midday grenade, Came over the roof and insurgent had infiltrated close enough to our, uh, position unde undetected and through grenade Mikey.

Uh, this is a, a perfect example of remaining calm. It had a decision to make in, in, uh, about a, uh, a second. And, uh, he calmly decided to give his life for his brothers. When that grenade went off, he absorbed the majority of the blast. There's a seal to his left and the seal and myself to the, uh, the right.

We were both about three feet away from Mikey and we took multiple shrapnel wounds to, uh, to the legs. Neither of us could walk. So that was three seals outta commission on that one rooftop only when seal was, uh, uh, was ambulatory. And he automatically got on Mikey's machine gun and started returning fire.

But after that grenade went off the Alqaeda insurgents launched an attack on our position to overrun it, to kill the remaining, uh, Americans in the, uh, Wow. And so we're at min Manning, even though I'm bleeding out through my legs, I was in a massive pain. It took me a few seconds to get composure, to block the pain out, as best as possible to assess the situation.

My radio was knocked out during that, uh, that situation. There was an Iraqi soldier who was in the fetal position. Just in pure shock. And I saw that he had his Motorola radio. That's what the Iraqi, uh, used. And so I couldn't walk. So I crawled over to him pretty much, you know, for civilians the equivalent of a, of a Mayday call to the other position, let him know that, you know, we had multiple casualties that we could not hold our position and they started moving us.

But you know, that's one situation where despite pretty much everything going wrong, we had to remain calm. We had to work together to get through that attack. And ultimately all of us got off that, uh, that roof. And, uh, that was due to Mikey's, uh, sacrifice. You know, another one is, is, you know, the night that Adam Brown.

Was killed. And in fact, this is the 10 year anniversary today that Adam Brown was killed in Afghanistan. There's a book called fearless, uh, about him cuz the guy was truly fearless. Uh, I think he didn't have a, uh, a risk meter. He saw trouble and he ran right towards it with, without assessing it, one of his better and worse qualities.

Uh, but we went into a valley in Afghanistan and this is 2010 that no Americans had ever been in during the war. And that's. Years nine years after it had, uh, had started. And, uh, we got in one of the worst firefights I've ever been in Adam was hit pretty early on during the fire fight. And we had to fight our way though.

We were taking fire from throughout the valley, fight our way down, uh, the side of a mountain passing down Adam's body at each sort of, uh, wall. The mountain was cultivated. And so, uh, it'd be cultivated for 50, uh, meters. And then there was about an eight foot. Cultivated for 50 meters, eight foot drop. So at each drop, you know, even though the guys were getting fired at, you saw them calmly passing Adam's body down and treating him with, with such, uh deLacy.

And I look back on that night, especially, even though it was a worst case scenario and God bless the TF one 60 pilots for flying into a bad situation to get us out. But the guys were, we were surrounded, like I said, taking machine gun fire from all directions. Everyone remained calm. And, and that was very much due to, uh, an amazing, uh, what we call a troop chief E nine, who had trained his unit.

Well, and, and I was humbled to be on that operation to, to share the battlefield with Adam. But I mean, when you have 50 guys, all calm, Focusing on their roles and responsibilities to make sure that we got out safely things, you know, things went well. Amazing. Yeah. Mikey's story is, is unbelievable. So heroic and Adam, I didn't know about Adam, but guys we'll make sure to link to that book in the show note.

So you guys can pick that up if you'd like to, but wow. So heroic, and it sounds like you guys just inoculate yourself to the craziness around you in combat, through training, you guys were able to stay calm, stay focused on what you needed to do to get out of the situation. And so that's one thing I think people need to hear is.

Just keep doing what you're doing, focus on what you're doing right now. Even if the media, you know, is throwing a lot of fear around, keep doing what you're doing, you know, don't, don't occupy yourself, reading articles and watching the news all day. In fact, I've been telling people, shut the news off, listen to some trusted sources, but otherwise keep working hard, keep taking care of your families and, uh, focus on what's in front of you.

Is, is that what you would say to, to people like that? Kind of applying those lessons to civilian life right now, who, especially for people who may be more prone. Fear and panic focus on what you can affect now, uh, assess the situation and focus on how you can contribute to getting past these rough times, if that means staying indoors, working from home.

Uh, so be it, if it means that you have, uh, elderly in the home and sort of, uh, segregating them from the rest of the population. Absolutely do. Take every, uh, you know, countermeasure or precaution. You can also, during times like this internally echelon front, we're looking at what we can do, not only for our partners, but, uh, individually to accelerate our performance.

So if we have somewhat, let's call it a down period right now, how can I improve upon myself? You know, is that picking up a book and reading? Is it, is it writing? I, is there a project at work or at home that I can, you know, move, uh, closer to completion, view this as an opportunity as. It's affecting a lot of our lives, but it also provides everything is an opportunity cost.

If you have to stay home, trust me, there's a lot of things you can engage in for personal development that you could come out on the, uh, the backside, more prepared and, and better to, uh, to attack opportunities that await us. And, and remember the, the second this thing is, uh, is done or, or to the part where it's minimized guys, that's our opportunity to come back and get this economy where it needs to, uh, to be, and, and that's, you know, these, these ebbs and flows in life.

Are natural, not everything can be AF flow. Not everything can be a economic upturn and we've been on a good ride. We should be thankful that we've had such a great ride up to this point. We're we're in about a downturn, but that's okay. We've always recovered. And we'll recover from this as well. And that's, you gotta keep things in perspective.

Absolutely. I have no doubt that that we'll bounce back stronger than we were before. I wanna go back to Ramat for a second and just paint a picture for people. This was the worst place in the world to be at the time that you were there. And so just if you could. Paint a picture for us of, of how, how bad this city was, how chaotic it was absolutely funny enough of the only member of tasking, a bruiser I'd actually been in Ramada in 2000, uh, five as a, uh, Enson.

I stayed on, uh, the deployment, uh, a little longer since I'd met them halfway through in 2004, 2005, I stayed on and actually, uh, was in, uh, Ramat for about one month in 2005. It was a bad place then, uh, when we found out we were going back to Ramat, you know, I sort of knew things. Would be worse, 2006, uh, Al-Qaeda pretty much owned, which is an embarrassment to the United States that we even allowed this to happen.

They pretty much owned. The third, largest city in Iraq, which is AR Ramat located in ABAR province. They owned it with pure impunity and, and Ramat to, to put it into perspective for, uh, people. The population is roughly around 400,000 citizens. Uh, there was an estimated, uh, enemy force of 5,000 enemy troops and Ramat was their Cali.

Which in law is ins law means, uh, their capital. It was quite frankly, when we went back in, uh, when we arrived, there was a national guard element from Pennsylvania to 2 28 that had done a phenomenal job sort of isolating and containing the city, which means they set the conditions for the next group to come in and, and try to take the city back from, uh, from Al-Qaeda during that, uh, you know, their deployment, which was 14 months, they lost 100.

American lives, the, these national guard soldiers, and they did a tremendous job and they, they did truly set the conditions for the, uh, the 1, 180, which is the, uh, one, one, uh, armored division to come in and clean house in terms of a fight. It was a one to one ratio we had about 5,000 Americans. And again, there was an estimated, uh, force of 5,000 troops in there.

And that's not a good ratio to step into a fight. You know, Joey, if you challenge me to a fight, I'm, I'm gonna bring around about nine of my friends. wait around the corner. Uh, you know, for my, uh, for my call, I'm an ensure victory. Yeah. But that's the, uh, those were the conditions. Uh, you know, we faced things were so bad that actually a well respected Marine in a, uh, secret intelligence report, which was linked to the world by the media pretty much described the situation as UN.

And that's what we were told is that Ramani was all bit lost. And I don't know why we ever say that to Americans, cuz history will show you that we will prove people wrong. There was no such thing as an unwinable situation. You know, they said the same thing about world war II fighting a, uh, a war on two fronts against two empires, two, two strong nations, and, and we proven wrong.

Then when we stepped in there, the situation was pretty bad. But those 5,000 Americans banded together, regardless of being in the army or the Navy or the air force or, or the Marine Corps, we came together, you know, we had great leadership gentleman named, uh, you know, at the time Colonel Sean McFarland.

Retired as a restart general and then all the way down to the ground force commanders guys like Jacka, Wilin, and LA Babin and Z stone. I've never seen a more cohesive environment amongst the different services with one purpose, with one mission. And that was to prove the world wrong. That it wasn't, unwinable watching the, the Marines and the, and the army soldiers that board, the brunt of the fight, you know, house to house, the streets, the street that was just.

Sight to, to see, I mean, those 18, 19 20 year olds fought their hearts. To uh, to win that city back. Unbelievable. And the reason I wanted people to know that is because if these guys are able to go in there in the most chaotic of situations in the worst place in the world and win and remain calm while doing that and keep a clear head, then we can handle something like this and you know, any business leaders out there, we need to do this for our teams too, just as Mike was describing, his leaders did for him.

We need to do this for our people. Wanna shift gears a little bit, uh, related to a lot of panic and fear that's going around is uncertainty. There's a lot of uncertainty. And so I'm curious, how do you guys deal with uncertainty, especially in combat? Yeah. You, you know, combat is the, uh, the ultimate manner.

Uh, there is nothing but uncertainty, uh, on the battlefield and you've gotta learn to deal with that. You've gotta learn to make decisions without all the inform. We call it the 70% solution. So look at it this way. If I have a bit of information about where an enemy can bat and some of his troops are located, uh, I'm never gonna get the a hundred percent solution.

I'm never gonna get all the information. So I've gotta look at all the information I do have, and I've gotta make a decision based off that incomplete information to seize the opportunity in front me. And for a lot of people that that is very, uh, very hard to do, even though the military trains are people.

Well, it doesn't take hold with everyone, even though a seal makes it past, uh, buds or seal training doesn't mean they go on to be a good seal. And when people hit the battlefield, we, we truly see who has what it takes and who, uh, who. And again, if you don't have what he takes, it doesn't mean you're a bad person.

It just means you're not, uh, equipped for that environment. But I, I, again, I had great leaders that prepared me to assess the situation and to make the best decision I had with the incomplete information given to me. Sometimes you have to let the, the situation develop, which is one of these right now, it may take a few weeks for this situation to develop before we have a true grasp of either how bad or how minor the problem is, uh, in, in our leaders.

Uh, you have to have faith in government, regardless of, of politics that they're gonna make the best decisions for people. I, I had a client and she came up with this term and we're gonna write an AR article. You have to have the assumption of positive. It's the assumption of positive intent that those people in, in the national, uh, you know, capital region I in the white house are making the decisions for what's best for our people, for the economy, uh, for the overall wellbeing of America.

And if they put out information, if they need us to, you know, do certain things like stay home for one week, guess what? Stay home for one. Things could be worse. Uh, again, find an opportunity to get better in your life, some area with those seven days that you have love that. Any other advice that you'd give any practical tips in dealing with this situation?

You, you already covered it well, but I just wanna give you an opportunity to say any final things, you know, uh, I don't wanna sound cavalier. Because, you know, lives will be taken with this, uh, coronavirus. We, we know that the elderly are, are more, uh, susceptible to that and, and that's tragic. So, you know, we, we do need to take this seriously.

We do need to all contribute. Everyone contributes to it, uh, by following what our leaders say, um, not necessarily pushing back and, and then ultimately remaining calm, you know, the runs on the supermarkets. Uh, don't buy more than you need. You know, my wife and I are not run into the, uh, you know, the Costco and stocking up for two months worth of, uh, food and, and supplies.

We're not gonna do that to other people. Other people need to, to supply their family. So remain calm, only get what you need, take what you need, buy what you need, and, and just continue to monitor for updates of what our, our leaders are asking us to do it. It's not that hard guys. It just remaining calm gives you perspective on, uh, on.

And the economy, I know it hurts and most people are inclined to go, you know, pull all their stocks out. That's actually the worst thing you can do. Uh, if you, if you follow the, uh, macro microeconomics, the economy will rebound it. It's been a continual uptick with minor fluctuations through the past decade.

We'll be fine. Let it sit. The economy rule, recover. This is just a small downturn. Again, it may take a few months. But everything will be okay. Absolutely. Yeah. Even looking back to the 2008 crisis within a few years, if people just remained calm, they were gonna make their money back. And, uh, it's kind of unbelievable though, because fear just controls us and people act on emotion and it's gonna hurt you in the long run.

There will always be people that will yell the world is ending. Even on the battlefield. There were certain seals that could not maintain their composure. And literally the other 16 or 17 seals would look at 'em and tell them. Well, in some rather harsh verbiage to, uh, shut up and say, Hey, you're no longer a part of this equation cuz you can't maintain your composure.

This is to, to me and I hate to, to simplify it. It's just not, it's not hard. This is not hard. Don't like keep your wits about you. Assess the information based off the, the information you have and make good decisions simple. It's great. And I love what you said before too. We just, we need to pull together as a country.

We can't be fighting against each other. We need to help each other. And so in closing out, I just wanted to ask you kind of a side question, but as a special operator, someone with your training, I'm just curious, what do you recommend that we do. To prepare our families for any, any disaster situation, not just the coronavirus, but something like a flood, a hurricane, an earthquake, a wildfire.

That's a question. Some people asked me and, uh, telling them that I was gonna interview you. They were just curious, how do you prepare for something like that? What's your recommendation? Well, you, you know, it also is region dependent. If you're on the west coast in California, your earthquakes, more likely.

If I, if you're in Florida, you know, hurricanes, uh, you know, I, if you're in, uh, the south, uh, east flooding, So it depends on your, uh, your region, but it it's prudent to come up with plans for those contingencies, a and then if you have children make sure that they understand those plans in terms of supplies, you know, it's always smart to have a first aid.

Um, the depth of that first aid kit, you know, that can, that, that can be, uh, a vast topic. Again, it depends on what you're potentially facing. Always smart to have stores of, uh, of water either in one, uh, you know, one water, uh, gallon jugs stored away rations in terms of MREs or, or meals ready to eat. That's, that's not a, a, a, a stupid thing to do.

And quite frankly, I do guns are a, uh, very. Decisive topic in, in America, you know, I, I'm not a gun freak. I was a special operations guy and I live in Texas. Believe it or not. I more Texans are gun freaks than I am. Do I have a pistol? Do I have a rifle? Yes. Uh, that is to protect my, my, my belongings. But as long as you have some food rations, clean water.

Um, a first aid kit. You you're step ahead, but even more important is discussing with your family. Hey, if this certain scenario happens, these are the steps we are gonna take. And sometimes that's getting out of your general area. If you know, a hurricane is coming, it's packing your family up, getting in the car and getting out the region rather than trying to it.

As a parent, I would never put. Children in that situation. If I was gonna remain in the area, I'd make sure that my children, with my wife get in the car and they depart the area to, to a safer environment, but it just comes down to what the military is very good at. It's contingency planning. And, uh, you can never plan for a contingency far enough out if you leave it to the last minute, you're gonna be like these people that are running to the, uh, the stores to, to stock up on toilet paper and, uh, whatever food they can grab a hold of, which is just.

Just ridiculous. So again, know your re region know the most likely threats plan for it. And, and then, uh, you you'll be a lot better off than, uh, than most civilians. Really good. Thank you for that. And just wanna give you an opportunity. Tell us about your work. What are you working on right now and how can we support you?

Love what I do with the echelon front team, which, uh, you know, our, our goal is to come and I think we're getting there. One of the world's premier leadership training, uh, firms and, and due to the demand right now, it's extremely high. Uh, leadership gets us out of bed in the morning, man. It's such a vast topic.

And guess what? The principal, the very principles we teach, we screw up on a daily basis. But we're trying to get better with every day. I don't know if you knew this. I started a recruiting firm with jock and LA, uh, that places military leaders into, uh, into companies. There's been a bad rap. And, and it's just because people don't know much about the military anymore.

You know, the 99% don't know much about the 1% what they do on a daily basis. We're, we're trying to change that narrative. We've placed some high performing veterans into companies that have already ascended to the COO. Of certain companies. So we're seeing great results there. We're very selective in, in the, the vets that we choose.

It's all based off mindset. And because I dived into that subject of how to find talent, which is, you know, uh, there was a Harvard study that said over 50% of CEOs say that finding talent is the, the biggest challenge they face, uh, myself and a, uh, a guy named, uh, George Randall prior army. Officer from the eighties and nineties are about done with talent, how special operations wins on talent.

Wow. And the focus of it is really how the special operations community assesses and selects talent into their community. Again, what, what is analogous to the hiring process for the private sector? Uh, and it's all based off attributes. We don't hire in the special operations community for, uh, industry experience, which has sort of become the default for the private sector, which is the worst thing.

One of the worst things you can do, if you find somebody with industry experience with the right mindset, absolutely hire them out right away. But we've, we've become very good at assessing talent based off their character. Out in necessity. And, um, I think a lot of the general principles we talk about, uh, we try to translate it to the business world and how they can improve their hiring process.

I think the book is gonna be well received. It's a fascinating topic. Uh, we're not saying that we have the, uh, you know, the answer. We have ways they can improve their, uh, their process. Literally finishing up, that's getting reviewed by DOD, the department of defense right now. And I'm excited to release that and see what the, the general feedback is.

That's amazing. So it's called the talent war. It's a book coming out when, uh, June, July timeframe we're expecting right now. Again, uh, the department of defense is reviewing it. We can't really move them along. They have their set process. Uh, I'd love to say I have some influence. I don't, but I I'll tell you what I was a recon Marine went through that as, uh, assessment and selection.

I was a seal, went through that assessment and selection. Uh, I was a tier one operator, went through that assessment and selection. Uh, had 10 combat deployments under my belt and writing this book was the hardest thing I've ever. Wow, Mike, Mike don't write good. So , it was, uh, it was challenging, but I've actually improved upon myself by, by engaging in it.

And actually a few of our preconceived notions going in have completely changed based off the interviews and the research that we did to write the book. You guys are humble on your learning as you go as a leader in a company right now, you know, I lead 40 people. I run operations for, for business. And I can totally say that.

What you just said is absolutely. Finding good people, trustworthy, hardworking people is, is difficult. And yeah, you can't just go down a checklist necessarily and say, oh, you, they, they have the years of experience. They have this degree. It there's more to it than that. And I love that you guys are doing that and serving our veterans cuz we have you guys to thank for our freedom.

And so I love that. You're you're doing that as well. Thank you, Joey. I, I appreciate that, man. I like people just don't understand that they're like, but you went to war. How could you, you know, say thank you. I loved. A as well as the guys I worked with, we loved what we did. I wish I could have deployed, uh, to war more because of the purpose behind what we thought we were doing eradicating evil, that just doesn't need to exist on this, uh, this planet back to your, your, your statement about finding the right talent.

It it's really a two part equation. Uh, talent plus leadership will ultimately equal victory. Once you find good talent, guess what? Half the war is complete. That's just one battle. And then you've gotta, uh, devote yourself to. Developing and cultivating them throughout their tenure in your company. And they may leave your company.

You may put all this time into 'em and they may leave your company. But even for corporations that hire executives in the C-suite guess what they may have experience, they may be proven, uh, leader elsewhere. You still have to develop those senior leaders as well. It's an ever ending war. Absolutely. And so many companies put so many resources into, you know, marketing into sales, into product development, but very few have a really cohesive plan to develop their leaders.

And I love what you guys did in task unit bruiser. You guys would have your most, most junior, um, members of, of the task unit lead operations in the. Which says so much about Jock's leadership, literally putting everything in the hands of these junior guys, because you were training them so well. And so I think American companies need to do the same.

And, and funny enough, one of the main themes in the book, uh, the talent war is, uh, we talk about how CHROs and HR is, you know, really minimized when they should be a strategic function within companies. They're, they're minimized to, you know, either a, uh, compliance function. Or, or overhead costs. But when you think about it, HR is actually actually your largest revenue generating function.

It's the one that provides talent to, like you said, accounting, marketing sales, they don't get the love and support. They don't get capitalized upon, uh, about how important their function is in keeping the company alive, filling the talent, you know, the funnel, uh, to all the other, uh, revenue generating, uh, Absolutely.

And for so many companies, you know, salaries, payroll, that's the biggest line item on their, uh, you know, profit or loss sheet. So it's certainly, it's, it's a huge investment. And so, you know, why, why do it half hearted? You gotta get the right people on there. And, and that's how you win. Like you said, there's just effective leaders and ineffective leaders.

There's no, no between Absolut. Absolutely. Awesome. How can, uh, how can people follow you? Uh, you know, I'm on Instagram, uh, Mr. Elli, uh, or at Mr. Cirelli. I'm not a big social media guy. Uh, I'm not as good as JP D Janelle or Jocko. Uh, uh, you know, this is, this is my own way, as I'm very resistant to letting people into, like what goes on behind the Elli household.

I didn't have a social media account. We basically weren't allowed when we were in special operations, just not, not prudent, you know, with the talent war. We're gonna start a page there. We're gonna start a blog. That's probably the best way, uh, people can follow me. And that should be released, uh, Midsummer, uh, along with the book.

And we're gonna continue to expand upon this topic of. How to find great people and then ultimately how to develop them into the future leaders within your companies. So important, so important. And speaking of you know, the impact on the economy, this is gonna be more important now than ever. So guys go out and grab that book once it comes out, depending on when you're listening to this, uh, we'll link to it in the show notes.

So make it easy for you guys to, to purchase it. Mike, thank you so much for your service, man. Thanks for your time for doing this interview. Really appreciate you. Like I said before, uh, man, couldn't be more thankful for men and women like you who go out and protect our country. You are the reason that we have our freedom.

So thank you so much. And Joey, thank you for having me and, uh, stay calm and keep on. It was such an honor to interview Mike and for the record, I would never challenge him to a fight. It would mean certain death. One thing that really stuck with me is that calm. Is contagious. And so in the midst of everything going on with the coronavirus in our world, we need to be models of keeping our composure, even when things are chaotic and unknown.

And if we can do that, the people around us who are watching us will do that too. The few books that we talked about, talent war. That's the book that Mike just wrote, and that comes out in the middle of 20, 20, June or July. He said fearless is also the other book that he mentioned. We'll have all this in the show notes for you guys.

So you can just click and buy there. And then also extreme ownership is a phenomenal book on leadership, especially in the business world and the military. But it goes beyond that too. If you wanna go to Mike's company's website, you can go to E F. overwatch.com again, that's E F overwatch.com. And if you wanna look at the parent company, which he mentioned does leadership training, that's echelon, front.com.

Again, that's echelon front.com. The story that he mentioned of Michael Monsour, Mikey Monsour can also be watched on YouTube by his commanding officer Jocko, Willink. It's a really, really moving beautiful, heroic story that I really encourage you guys to check out. So we'll link to that in the show notes as well.

When I was in San Diego, not long ago, I actually got to go to Mikey's tomb and spend a few moments there. If you're new to restored, we exist to help teenagers and young adults cope, heal, and grow after the trauma of their parents' divorce of separation. So they can feel whole again. And of course, we're taking a break from our normal content, just due to everything going on with the coronavirus.

But if you'd like to find out more, you can go to restored ministry.com again, restored ministry ministries to singular.com. All the resources and links that we mentioned can be found in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 15. Again, that's restored ministry.com/fifteen. Thank you so much for listening.

I hope this episode has been useful. It's been helpful for you. And please go ahead and share this with someone, you know, who could use it. And from everyone here, it restored. We just want you to know that you're in our thoughts. You're in our prayers. Stay safe.

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#014: Psychologist: How to Handle Fear and Anxiety During a Crisis (Like the Coronavirus) | Dr. Julia Sadusky, PsyD

The Coronavirus is causing a lot of panic. There's so much fear, anxiety, and uncertainty going around. So, how do we deal with all of that during a crisis? Dr. Julia Sadusky shows us how.

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The Coronavirus is causing a lot of panic. There's so much fear, anxiety, and uncertainty going around. So, how do we deal with all of that during a crisis? Dr. Julia Sadusky shows us how.

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Coming Up: Episode #015: Navy SEAL: Calm is Contagious | Mike Sarraille

Thanks for listening! Our next episode features Navy SEAL Mike Sarraille on how to stay calm during chaotic situations.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

We decided to take a break from the normal content that we produce to speak about the coronavirus. And we're not gonna talk about the medical aspect. We're not gonna get into a lot of the theories out there about the virus itself, but we wanna talk about how do you deal with the fear. The uncertainty, the anxiety, the panic around this virus, what do you do in response to all that?

And so I asked my friend, Dr. Julia Sadusky to come on and give us some really practical tips about coping with all those things in a healthy way. And so you may think that, you know, everything going on is ridiculous. You may be really scared. Doesn't matter where you are in the spectrum. All these things are really good for us to hear.

And you personally may not be struggling with this, and if you're not, that's great. That's awesome. But someone, you know, probably is even if they're not showing it on the outside. And so share this episode with them and not gonna give you the full intro. That we usually do, but we're gonna go right to the conversation with Dr.

Julia Sadoski. I'll tell you more about her at the end of the show. I do just want you to know that Dr. Julia Sadoski has her doctor in psychology. She's actively counseling people. And so she's a really great person to look to in times of uncertainty like this. But, uh, thank you so much for listening.

Hope this is helpful. Dr. Julia, thank you so much for coming on the show again. Absolutely happy to be here with everything happening right now with the coronavirus. People are afraid. There's a lot of fear, a lot of panic, a lot of anxiety, and the media seems to be encouraging all of that, unfortunately.

And so I wanted to get your advice on how people can stay calm, how they can manage their anxiety, their fear, um, the uncertainty that's really looming over so many of us, right. During a chaotic situation like this, like the coronavirus. And so really happy to, to have you here and just wanna dive right in, uh, and start talking about fear.

Uh, why, why is it that fear often controls us? Cause if we look around on social media, look at the news, there's just a lot of fear right now. Why does that control us? Yeah. Great question. I mean, I think that's the question. We all ask ourselves at different moments in life. When we find ourselves flooded with it.

What's important to say, just right away is that fear is a necessary and an adaptive response. Just like all of our other emotions, you know, we need them, their data points. They're trying to communicate something to us. Um, and when we look at what fear is trying to communicate, uh, it's this response. That says there is a known threat that I needed to do something about.

So you would have fear anytime. There was something specific known out there that puts you at great risk. This is necessary on kind of a purely evolutionary level. We need fear. It tells us what to avoid and what to move towards now. Why does it control us? Right. If you think about moments historically, right?

Where we might need fear, say I'm walking in a dark alley and someone jumps out with a gun. I really don't have time in that moment to think gosh, I wonder how far away that person is. I wonder how, how good they are at shooting guns. I wonder if their gun is loaded. I mean, the part of our brain that does our thinking, our reasoning, um, called the frontal cortex.

That part shuts down. When we feel a fear response, it completely gets shut down so that we can react. So that the part of our nervous system that activates us. For fight or flight that helps us respond to stress effectively, that part takes over. So that parental cortex, the part that thinks that judges, that reasons through situations that helps us anticipate consequences, it's completely offline there.

And that's a really positive thing when there's a known threat. So the reason, fear controls us, quote unquote, is that it really. Drive meaningful action, purposeful action in those moments in a way that our brain won't get in the way of now, of course you can, you can appreciate in times, um, where, you know, we're not walking down an alley, but maybe we're kind of in a situation that we find ourselves in even now, uh, where we're anticipating real threats in our environment.

It's not gonna be as adaptive to feel fear on an ongoing basis that those stress hormones that are being released when we feel a threat close. The nature of them is that they eventually subside. Mm. And so if they don't subside, if we're constantly activated that part of our brain's called the amygdala, that's really firing fear.

If that keeps firing over and over again, we're not gonna have moments where we come down from that. We're not gonna have moments where we can think clearly and critically about what we need to do right now. And that's the way where, where it really ends up getting. The better of us, that makes so much sense.

So it's a good thing. In, in the right context, it can help save our lives. Fear can help save our lives. Our response fear can help save our lives, but if it's taken too far, if it's overblown, then it can control us. And even it can paralyze us. Can it, it can cripple us. Absolutely. Yeah. If you think of the common responses that we have, when we feel fear, it's fight it's flight or it's freeze.

and when we feel that paralysis, when we feel like we can't do anything, that's the freeze response. And so that's exactly what you're talking about. That's the paralysis. Many people will fear, um, that can often, for many of us lead us to feel really ineffective in our environment. And even that can lead to a greater sense of helplessness.

One of the things that a lot of people are afraid of. You know, the virus itself is scary and I know we're learning more and more every day about it, but I think so many people are concerned about other people's reaction because, you know, in times of uncertainty in times of fear in times of panic, um, we don't let, like you're saying we don't always use the part of our brain that is, uh, that helps us make good decisions.

And so I think a lot of people are concerned, like what are other people gonna be doing? And, uh, and so that's interesting, you said fight flight or freeze. Uh, can we talk a little bit about the fight or. Responses. I, I know you've touched on the freeze one. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So the fight is that kind of adrenaline rush that we get to motivate us towards an action where we counter, where we look outside of us, we see a threat and we try to.

Attack it really, um, I mean, I think a simplified version of this is, is the people running into the grocery stores and just grabbing and hoarding as much as they can. I mean, they're trying to fight these, the virus head on, um, there's people who are running into their homes, fleeing and saying, I'm not letting people over.

I'm not letting people in. And, and in the extreme, those can be pretty destructive right. In, in the balance. Uh, those can be pretty important. I mean, part of fighting is potentially taking medication for something. Part of fleeing is the social distancing that we're talking about. Um, that seems to be the most effective approach right now.

And, and so everything in moderation, right. And the way we moderate our responses is exactly by activating that central cortex. Um, and that's what anything we do to deal with our fear is supposed to be able to do that. That's the part of our brain that sets us apart from animals that prefrontal cortex actually lets us make better decisions, modulate our behavior in a way that makes sense.

Now part of the fear and part of, I think, uh, even distinguishing fear from anxiety, the anxiety we feel is the recognition that we are powerless over other people. Decisions. Um, so when people in our communities, people in our social groups, people in our families are making decisions that we wouldn't make that can lead to a lot of fear, certainly a lot of anxiety, um, apprehension and.

And leave us feeling stuck in a, in a pretty helpless situation. Yeah. I, I can totally see that playing out and given what you just said, how can someone manage their fear instead of letting it control them? Yeah. Um, well I think the piece of that really, and you, I touched on it briefly, but it's the idea of what are the things that I can do to number one name?

My fear know it's there not, not feel like I have to run from. But also to be able to engage in activities that are not ruled by fear, and those activities ought to be the type of things that would activate that pretzel cortex. What do I mean by that? I mean that the part of our brain that does thinking judging, anticipating consequences, we need to actually mindfully engage that part when we feel fear.

And so. This could be something, you know, as simple as I'm gonna start doing crossword puzzles, I'm gonna use distraction. I'm gonna use crossword puzzles because those engage that part of my brain that does the thinking, and it's gonna move me away from what's in front of me while also acknowledging, okay.

You know, I I'm really caught up in what's on the news media. And then I think another thing that people can do is some pretty classic stress management skills. The way, this works, you know, this is not just kind hokey. This is, this is scientific. This is how do we engage the part of our nervous system that calms us the most effective form of doing so is deep breathing.

If we can reinstate a practice of mindfulness, where am I? What am I doing? Who am I with? Describing my surroundings in my brain and engaging in active breathing, we can actually regulate fear in a way that is just as effective as anti-anxiety medication. Now, why do people use those medications? I mean, they work, they work pretty effectively for some people, and also they work more quickly than deep breathing.

We don't have to do as much for that. Um, but if, if people can just hear that actually. Managing our breath is a foundation for be being able to manage other things like fear, anxiety, terror. Existential dread all the things that are being kinda poked at right now, something as simple as that can actually be one of the most effective skills.

Those are great tips when it comes to deep breathing. What do you usually say to someone who doesn't really know how to do that? How, how do they do that? Yeah. Great question. Um, you know, you breathe in through your nose for about four seconds. Hold it for. And then breathe out for four seconds. That's kind of the basic you can do longer as you start to practice it.

Um, you can do eight seconds in hold for one out for eight seconds into your nose, out through your mouth. You wanna imagine your stomach filling up almost like a balloon, expanding and then deflating. As you start deep breathing, you know, you're gonna initially notice your breath is pretty shallow. It's gonna feel forced.

And then you'd be surprised how much over time that becomes regulated. And again, it's the mindful counting. Anytime we count that activates that frontal cortex in our brain. It's the counting in your head, breathing in holding and then release. And people can build on that. You know, there's tons of apps for that.

There's calm.com, uh, there's head space, other great options for how to practice mindful breathing and other adaptive ways of managing anxiety and fear. And you can, you can tap in with other things. I mean, some people people's faith might use a calming word to breathe in and then breathing out stress and anxiety.

And really imagining yourself breathing in peace and breathing out stress and anxiety and, and doing those types of practices, not only when you're fearful, but also when you're finding yourself feeling calm is a way to really tap into it both when you absolutely need it. And also practice it when the stakes aren't as.

That's great. I love it's so practical and we'll link to all those resources in the show notes. So you guys can just click on 'em. You don't need to remember them. One of the things you said was crossword puzzles and that that's great. Uh, what are some other things people can do? One of the things that came to mind for me was, um, trivia or something like that.

But do you have any other ideas that. People can use to, uh, engage that part of their brain. Yeah. I mean, reading, uh, reading about things that are interesting captivating to you that have nothing to do with what's on the media right now. Um, another thing is, is playing games, watching funny videos, uh, listening to music that is the opposite.

Emotion. Um, so this is an idea called opposite action, where we engage in an activity that is opposite of what we would be inclined to if we were ruled by our emotion. So if my emotion is sadness, I'm gonna listen to music that is really. Upbeat and, and positive. Um, and if I'm feeling really activated and my heart's racing and my Palm are sweaty, then I'm gonna listen to maybe classical music.

And even, uh, and this one is, is interesting that some people find helpful is scheduling time to actually worry. Um, so maybe it's when you're in a calm space going on and looking at the news and, and reading for about 10 minutes, but scheduling at time and saying after 10 minutes, I'm stopping worrying about this and I'm go and distract, do something.

So you can see there that we're managing our emotions. We're containing them in a way that feels safe. Something that we can do something with, without feeling like it's bleeding into every aspect of our day. And when that 10 minutes ends and you, you put away the phone and start doing something else, and those thoughts start to flow in.

We can say to ourselves, Hey, I'm gonna get back to that later. Um, it's not the time for that. I'm gonna worry about that later and really watching your brain be able to begin to contain and compartmentalize things that just are not gonna be helpful to. Be consumed by all the time. That's really good. And even something as far as, you know, not watching the news or not watching it as much, I think can be, can be helpful because every Julia, every news headline I'm reading right now is just like completely fear based.

And I, I mean, the media is known for that, cuz that gets clicks. You know, that part of our brain, that's like, oh gosh, what do I have to worry about? How do I, I defend myself, protect myself. Right. So, so they're, they're good at using that, but. I know a lot of people I look up to and trust, they're saying, you know, okay, distance yourself from the news for a bit, at least.

So I think that could be a good thing. And some of the tips that you said too, can be useful for, uh, parents who are stuck at home with kids because so many of the schools are closing now. So, uh, I think this is a lot of really practical advice. So, so thank you for that. I was gonna ask too. How about writing things out?

You mentioned naming, uh, you know, naming your fears. I've found writing things out and the people that I work with have found that that's really helpful too. What would you add to that? Yeah, I mean, I think it is a little bit of a trial and error approach with that. There are people who, you know, especially people they're prone to panic.

If you end up writing out all the things you're worried about. and all of your journaling is focused on that. It might actually end up being more activating right. Than, than calming for some people. Yeah. For other people. What it lets you do is it lets you externalize all of those thoughts, get perspective on them, reread the journal entry and you can start to see, okay, the world's not ending.

We've been through things like this before a year from now. We'll have seen this through. Um, and you can take more perspective on it for some people when you journal. Um, one of the keys, I think with journaling about anxiety provoking topics, um, is you might want to do a counter list. So you might wanna write about the things you're grateful for.

Um, you might wanna write a letter to somebody that you want to encourage as an, as another opposite action to do in the midst of writing down the things that are really troubling you. And in so far as you write those things down, the things that are troubling, anxiety provoking, a great thing to do is to put 'em in a drawer somewhere, or put 'em in a box that you label your anxiety box or your fears box.

And that is a really visible, tangible way to contain. Anxiety and fear as opposed to feeling the need to carry it with us. Um, and so there's some kind of mental trick that happens there where we remind our brain, Hey, I'm containing that. I'm putting that away for now. And I can always come back to it later.

So, so it's a little bit of tweaking there with just as far as what works for people. But you're right. Journaling is great that anything that we can do, art is another great thing. Um, for people who are musicians and writing music around some of the things you're feeling, anything that we can do to externalize what we're feeling in a way that helps us see, we're not defined by it.

That's really crucial here. Love that. And thank you for clarifying that about journaling. It's it's a great point. And that, that makes sense. And even thinking back on my own life, when I've been, you know, going through bouts of anxiety, Uh, that can certainly make it worse if you're just stuck inside your own head and kind of replaying the things that are making you worry.

Sometimes you just need a break from breather and escape, you know, where that may not be helpful in the long term. If you always do that in the short term, it is necessary. Absolutely. And I think that's to your point, you know, about. Exposure to media sources. You know, I think it's important to maybe pick one or two media sources.

You trust only go to those websites by actually typing them in and do it in very specified controlled times of day, uh, where you already feel calm. I don't think we realize with our iPhones how much. We have instant access to information that is troubling for us, many of it not being true . And so we, we wanna be good stewards of the, the gift we have with technology by managing it, distancing ourselves from it in a way that I think we would start to see some more balance in our mood and our ability to be present to life as it is today, as opposed to the terror that comes.

What could be and getting caught in an imaginative process around that? Sure. One of the things that helped me years ago, I went through, you know, some pretty intense anxiety periods of anxiety. And one of the things that helped me, I don't know how clinical this is, but, uh, was just actually touching things around me, like a table, a chair.

Mm-hmm something like that. It, yes, for some, in some way it helped ground me in the present moment. Instead of letting my mind just run off into. You know, whatever I was worried about. Absolutely. Yes. What you're speaking about is they're called grounding exercises. Whoever made up that name, nice. Uh, pretty creative, but, but yeah, just the idea, you know, one of the ways you do grounding is just what you described, you know, touching things, especially things that activate your senses.

So maybe it's touching soft things and then hard things. Uh, there's a, a quick tip of called five senses where we just describe what are five things that I. What are four things that I hear? What are three things I can touch? What are two things I can taste? And one thing I can smell. Hmm. And what you can do is you can, you know, grab different things to help with that.

You can light a sense of candle or smell. You can rub some lotion on, you can taste something sweet or something tart or sour. Um, there's lots of different ways to do that. Even splashing cold water on our face. I mean, anything that we can do to get us tapped into the present moment is gonna be really, really effective.

Um, and again, what, what you wanna do with that is not just do it, but actually. Immerse yourself in it, through describing what you're thinking about, what you're feeling in that moment. So if I'm feeling something soft, I'm gonna in my head, describe the texture, describe the color. Um, and all of that, again, is what's activating that prefrontal cortex, which is so important to bring us back to the moment that we're actually in good stuff.

Is there anything you'd add to this for parents who, you know, are gonna be dealing with a lot, having the kids home, perhaps, um, or. You know, just managing their own emotions while taking care of kids, anything in addition, cuz the, the tips you already gave are awesome. And I think parents can use those.

They can use them themselves. They can use 'em with their kids. But is there anything specific to parents that, that you would say, yeah, I do. I do think, you know, I wanna distinguish fear from anxiety here for parents because fear is that really adaptive sense that there's a known threat anxiety is what happens when we start to imagine a possible.

An imprecise threat when we don't really know much about. And the way that you as parents talk about what's happening right now is gonna either quells some of the fear or it's gonna stoke the anxiety of your children. Many children don't know all the ins and outs of what we're talking about with the coronavirus.

They don't understand it. You know, the three year old I live with just picked up on the people are dying, right. And when you're a three year old and you hear people are dying, There's gonna be a real apprehension there, a real anxiety there, which is much more crippling than fear because anxiety is just this really vague sense of apprehension and tied with a sense of powerlessness over our circumstances.

So for children, it's gonna be really important to be careful about how we talk about what's happening. To not instill some undo panic in kids who otherwise could really have a pretty enjoyable day , um, and, and really helping them with what's called radical acceptance. Um, that's just the idea that we, we take ownership over our circumstances as they are, and we work towards purposeful action things that are gonna make our.

More meaningful today in the midst of whatever we're going through. So a kid says, you know, are people dying? And it's like, yep. Everybody dies. And, and that can be really scary sometimes. And in the midst of that, we're gonna really work to enjoy this time and, and, and, um, draw closer as a family. Right. So kind of holding and containing all the feelings you're gonna be having as an adult, modulating them so that children don't feel like they have to be a sponge.

Emotions that we naturally can pick up on in others. That's really good. Yeah. And I think it's gonna help a lot of parents, especially those who are more on edge with everything going on. And I love what you said about taking ownership. I think that's so key. It's if, if I'm hearing you right, it's focusing on what we can do and what we can control instead of just focusing.

Kind of what's lurking in the shadows, what what's kind of in the unknown? Absolutely. Absolutely. Because if we spend our, our space and mental energy in what we can't do, what we can't know, it breeds a sense of ineffectiveness in our world. It breeds depression, it breeds hopelessness, helplessness, and, and kind of an existential dread.

Um, and the truth is, is that something like our mortality, we can't control. So moments like this in history really put us in touch with the reality of our mortality. It also puts us in touch with the reality of how much of our life is out of our control. Now that's bad news. If we feel like our joy and peace comes from that.

But for those of us who recognize that as a reality that we accept, we can move past that and say, okay, what can I be effective in? What do I have a choice about today? And how am I gonna do things that I look back on a year from now and say, wow, I'm really glad I spent my Tuesday doing that as opposed to being ruled by the present anxiety in a way that makes us look back and say, wow, I wasted two weeks of my life reading articles.

Right? um, we can certainly do. But it's important to recognize there's a choice there, and there's a choice in, in what action we do when we feel fear. And there's also a choice in what things we don't do. Um, and so we always have the power in those moments to make decisions that we can be proud of and look back on and also.

Decisions that our children want to model. What other tips would you give to people who are really dealing with anxiety right now? I, I would assume some of the tips that you talked about already would apply, but is there anything else you would add? Yeah, I mean, I think, uh, something to know with anxiety is that it's much.

More difficult to deal with. If we see it as something that defines who we are. So I already mentioned externalizing it. Um, another way to do that is how we talk about our anxiety. So if I'm feeling panicked or I'm feeling anxious, a lot of us will say, I'm anxious. I'm an anxious person. I'm a panicked person and I'm a fearful person.

And you can talk about it that way. But what that does is it keeps it so close to you that it almost becomes an identity. And so I wanna challenge, uh, listeners to think through even how you talk about your anxiety impacts how you experience your anxiety. So if I say I'm anxious versus I say, I'm having a feeling of anxiety, there's some distance there in the second statement.

So the first I am anxious, that's who I am. The second I'm having a feeling of anxiety and having a feeling of fear, a feeling of panic. You'll notice, even as you talk about it in that way, when you're feeling those emotion. That can be regulating you're naming it without being defined by it. Um, and I think another piece of that is just knowing that if you're prone to anxiety now is a great time to get plugged into therapy.

If you're not already there, because your threshold for what we're experiencing right now is just gonna be lower. and it's gonna be stoking the fire of what's already there. So a person who might have panic attacks once a month could find themselves having them much more frequently when there's this looming social pressure to feel anxious.

And that's what a lot of it is, right? I mean, if, if we're feeling threatened, there's nothing worse than somebody not getting how panicked we feel. And we can almost overexaggerate things in a way until somebody starts to feel what we're feeling. Hmm. I just wanna invite people to really. Settle into the reality that, that this is a scary time for many people.

This is unsettling. We're not sure all these and outs of what's happening in our culture and in our world. And in the midst of that, what does it look like to become an expert on your own experience of anxiety and to learn what works and what doesn't to bring it down? Because the truth is you can find ways to bring down your anxiety.

You might benefit from some supports and help with that through therapy or other friends asking them what they do. Um, but you can become an expert on this experience and that's, that's where the hope comes in. That's really good. You mentioned people who may be prone to higher forms of anxiety. I think a lot of people who may be, aren't usually prone to anxiety and maybe feeling that now, but especially those people who do have anxiety have panic attacks.

What additional advice would you give to them in moments like this? Where, you know, there's a lot of chaos, a lot of panic going around. Yeah. When people feel anxious frequently or panic, you can become very comfortable with the reality and just come to believe that you don't have the necessary capacity to bring it down.

I want you to know that you do. I mean, you have the, it's called the parasympathetic nervous system. It's the part of us that's activated when we feel. It helps us rest. It helps us have energy storage, not depleting us of energy. You have that part of your brain and nervous system too. And so it's again, it's about how do I activate that part of me that can calm myself?

How do I soothe myself in this time? And ultimately remembering, especially with panic attacks that panic attacks are not let. They cannot kill us. And if we do deep breathing, if we do grounding exercises, if we do some other activation of our brain to calm us down, we will calm down and no emotion. We feel no feeling state can last forever.

It's meant to peak and valley. And so if you set a timer, it will stop if you do nothing, but it will stop sooner. If you do something about it. And I wanna invite you to, to use some of the skills to try some of the skills. We've talked about, ask your therapist. If you're seeing one for others. And through trial and error trust that you will find things that work, but none of these things are more powerful than, than your will to actually bring yourself down.

Really good. Thank you for speaking directly to people like that. I think it's important. I wanna shift gears a little bit. We've already talked about uncertainty. There's a lot of uncertainty going around and in times of uncertainty, it can be very unsettling. Like we're experiencing now. People want answers.

They wanna know what's going on. Um, they want stability. and so is there anything you would add in addition to what we've already talked about for people who, you know, the, the uncertainty of what's going on is really bothering them? What, what can they do? Yeah, I mean, I think, I think that's where the radical acceptance becomes most important.

It's it's acknowledging I want answers. I want stability. I want balance and I don't have that right now. And I don't know how long that'll be. But today I'm gonna choose to be peaceful. I'm gonna choose to be reaching out to other people and checking in with them. I'm gonna be action oriented in a time where I might be prone to paralyzation.

I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna put the phone as far away from me as possible because it's not helping me feel less. Uncertain, it's helping me feel more uncertain with every article that comes out. There's a conflict between that and the previous article, um, there's things that are said that absolutely contradict each other, which for those who are consuming that information, you're gonna feel like, oh my gosh, I thought I knew something and now I feel like I know nothing.

And we're starting back at square one. Mm-hmm I think a bit of this is the recognition that there is so much we can't know and don't know. And I'm gonna choose to acknowledge that reality today and not let that reality Rob me of a life that I can really thrive in today. I've noticed that I've noticed that there's all this information flying around.

And so something we've talked about before is in cases of, of uncertainty. People just kind of grasp for some explanation that gives them some level of control. That makes sense to them. You you've explained how in children, you see this a lot too, you know, we, we don't know how to make sense of complex things.

So we tend to simplify them in our minds and usually. That can lead to, uh, kind of unhealthy ways of, of looking at things. And so, uh, if you would just spend a little bit of time talking about how we kinda latch onto explanations, that if we're objective, don't make the most sense in, in cases of uncertainty.

Right. I mean, this is the example of kind of the classic I'm walking down an alley. Nobody's there. I'm imagining that somebody's gonna attack me. And somebody walks out of, out of the corner and I say to myself, I'm gonna die. I mean, that's, that's where our brain goes. I'm gonna die. This is the end. That is the simplest explanation of what's happening there.

It's unlikely that that's the most accurate explanation of what's happening there. And that's where we have to slow ourselves down. When we start to see our. Going to the simplest conclusion. Um, whether it, it is, you know, in this case, this is no big deal at all. There's nothing at all to be worried about.

This is just a conspiracy, um, to the other extreme of, of this is the end of the world as we know it. Yeah. Um, we wanna notice when we start to go into that black and white thinking, which again is adaptive in a threatening situation. It's what helps us get through it when we're in an actual. If we're not, if we're on the sidelines of a threat, it's not gonna service as well.

And so the question is how do I zoom out from my black and white thinking? How do I start to recognize that it's probably more balanced than where my brain goes right away? And how do I take in information? That's not sensationalizing. That's not every time I'm reading it, just making my anxiety spike.

Um, but how do I really start to seek balance? Talk about what I'm feeling and thinking with other people so they can give more objective information and really move away from information that tends to be very polarized and very black and white. That's where we see ourselves getting in trouble. I think most going back to radical acceptance.

I, it made me think of, uh, one of my role models, Jacko willing. He's a retired Navy seal commander. He writes books and gives talks and conferences on, on leadership. But. So much of what he teaches, just apply to, to anyone. And one of the things that he says is when you're in combat he's, he's seen a lot of combat he's led men in combat.

And he says, when you're in combat, one of the things that is out of your control is artillery. When the enemy's essentially dropping bombs on you, you can't really do anything about it, especially in the moment. You know, maybe you can figure out a way to get your guys to strike back, to get, you know, our, our pilots to strike back.

But in the moment, if you're on the ground, which is what Jocko would do as a, as a seal, um, you can't do anything about it. And so he, he even talked about, he would say, you kind of need to embrace artillery. He said, it's, it sounds odd. but you really need to embrace it and just understand that this is happening.

There's nothing I can do about that in itself in this exact moment, but I can right. Figure out what else I can do. There's other things that I can do to, to mitigate, to threat. I can get my guys to a safe position. I can, you know, again, call in on the radio, letting them know, okay, we think this is where it's coming from.

We need to take them out, whatever. So, but it's an interesting example of a really in kind of in an extreme environment of chaos and threat. Absolutely. I mean, and, and that is the reality, you know, for different people in different phases of life. And we survive those moments of terror and we don't survive those moments of terror and thrive in them.

If we are caught up in the imminent reality of our mortality as a. In a sense that becomes really debilitating. I mean, I think too of CS Lewis, he, he writes a really powerful reflection on what do we do with the atomic bomb? You know, he lived in the reality of that and I love what he says. He says, you know, as you would've lived in the 16th century, when there was a plague almost every year, um, or, you know, as you would live in an age of cancer, an age of paralysis, an age of air raids, an age of railway accidents, an age of car accident.

And he goes on to say, you know, let's not exaggerate the novelty of our situation in a sense, this mortality was always here. Um, and he, and he ends by saying they may break our bodies. A microbe can do that, but they need not dominate our minds. And I think that's where we, we rest in. How do we lean back into the things that make us human again?

How do we pray work? Um, teach read, as he says, listen to music, uh, take care of our children and, and keep going, um, and make a decision to not let these things consume us in a way that really robs us with joy. I love that. I read that excerpt the other day and it's, it's so good. And so we'll guys will post that for you on the ReSTOR blog.

So you can can read through that and we'll be sending it out, uh, you know, through email, through social media. So you guys have access to that, but Dr. Julia, anything else that, that you would add any final advice you would give for us during. Really any crisis. I know some people are saying this isn't a crisis.

Some people are saying it is a crisis, but, uh, if we're honest, there are different crisis that we face in life. Whether it's, uh, an earthquake, whether it's a natural, some sort of natural disaster, like a hurricane, a tornado. These sort of things do happen in life. And so, uh, any final words that you would give to, to anyone dealing with this right now?

Yeah, one of the most understated ways of coping with suffering in life is reaching out to others. Getting outside of ourselves, we can become so nav ging in our anxiety and pain. And so I wanna encourage you as listeners to really go out of yourself in this time, reach out to a neighbor, reach out to a friend, find ways, you know, maybe, maybe it's writing.

Cards making cards and bringing them to hospitals where people are, maybe it's checking in on the person next door. Do they have enough groceries? Anything we can do to get outside of ourselves in this time is gonna be connecting. It's gonna build a sense of community. Um, because hardship can go one of two ways.

It can lead to isolation and angst and it can lead to community in the sense of solidarity. Um, I wanna vote for solidarity out of this one and I. The more we lean into our relationships. The more we seek the people who are suffering, uh, in ways that we might not be, uh, the more we're gonna find a real lasting sense of purpose in the midst of this time.

So. Good. Thank you so much for all of your advice, all the practical tips that people can really start using right now today, if, uh, if someone wants to connect with you, how can they do that? Yeah. Um, I'm sure you'll put in the show notes, but they can email me at Dr. Eski Gmail. Awesome. Yeah, we'll definitely throw that in the show notes for you guys, Dr.

Julia, thank you so much for, for coming on and for speaking into, uh, this very real problem that so many people are dealing with. I think, uh, what you said is gonna give people hope it's gonna help them to, to cope and deal with a lot of the fear, the anxiety, the uncertainty out there. So thank you so much.

Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Lots of good advice, practical advice that we all can start using today. And so if this, again is something that you don't struggle with, you don't deal with anxiety, fear, stuff like that. That's great, but there's probably someone, you know, that does. And so share this episode.

With them, if you're not familiar with ReSTOR, we exist to help teenagers and young adults to COE and grow after the trauma of their parents' divorce or separation. So they can feel whole again. And we do that through our podcast, our blog speaking engagements and so on. And so we're, again, going away from our normal content to, to talk about this, a topic that's truly relevant for everyone in the world right now.

And so I hope what we've talked about has been helpful and you can use. To get through this crisis a little bit about Dr. Julia Sadoski. I'll give you her kind of quick bio she's a clinical psychologist. She has her doctorate in psychology, and she currently works at ed care and eating disorder clinic in Denver.

She's opening a private practice called Lux counseling and consulting. She'll be offering individual therapy around. Denver and offer training and consulting around sexuality and gender identity. That's really her focus. She's kind of a rare breed of people who are helping others who suffer from real sexual and gender identity issues.

The show notes we mentioned can be found@restoredministry.com slash 14. That's a number 14. Again, that's restored ministry. Ministry is a singular.com/fourteen. Thank you so much for listening. Hope this has been helpful for you. And please pass this episode along.

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#013: Why We Repeat Our Parents' Mistakes and How to Avoid It | Dr. Julia Sadusky, PsyD

Most of us with separated or divorced parents are afraid of getting divorced or repeating our parents’ mistakes. We want to avoid the bad behavior we saw in our families and our parents’ marriages, but we don’t know how to do that.

If you can relate, listen to this episode.

julia-headshot.jpg

Most of us with separated or divorced parents are afraid of getting divorced or repeating our parents’ mistakes.

We want to avoid the bad behavior we saw in our families and our parents’ marriages, but we don’t know how to do that.

If you can relate, listen to this episode. Dr. Julia Sadusky answers to these questions and more:

  • Why do we repeat the bad behavior we saw in our families growing up?

  • Why does someone from a dysfunctional family often become bored with “normal” in life and relationships?

  • How can we avoid repeating those bad behaviors and break the cycle of divorce?

Also, a special note for any parents listening in this episode.

Find a counselor or spiritual director:

  1. Go here

  2. Fill out the form (60 seconds max)

  3. Submit and we’ll connect you with a counselor

Links & Resources

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

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#012: Counseling: How It Works and Why It Helps | Dr. Julia Sadusky, PsyD

Counseling is a tool for healing. But how does it work? And will it actually help me?

We answer those questions and much more in this episode.

julia-headshot.jpg

Counseling is a tool for healing. But how does it work? And will it actually help me?

We answer those questions and more in this episode:

  • How many sessions do you need to start feeling better?

  • The #1 factor that determines whether counseling works or not

  • How to find the right counselor for you

  • Questions to ask a counselor before you commit

  • How to make the most of it

Find a counselor:

  1. Go here

  2. Fill out the form (60 seconds max)

  3. Submit and we’ll connect you with a counselor

Links & Resources

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

Coming Up: Episode #013: Why We Repeat Our Parents' Mistakes and How to Avoid It | Dr. Julia Sadusky, PsyD

Thanks for listening! Our next episode again features Dr. Julia Sadusky, PsyD. We why we often repeat the bad behavior we observed in our families and our parents marriage, and how to undo that cycle.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Have you ever wondered why does a girl who was abused by her father end up with an abusive husband? Or why does someone whose father or mother had an affair end up cheating on their husband or their wife? I'll be honest with you guys, those questions have always baffled me. And another question that really hits on a fear of mine.

How do we avoid repeating the bad behavior that we saw in our families growing up? How do we avoid repeating the mistakes that our parents made? That's what this episode is all about. We're gonna talk about why it is that we often repeat the bad behavior that we saw growing up in our families. We'll talk about why someone who comes from a dysfunctional family, Often becomes bored with quote unquote normal in life and relationships.

You'll also learn why hiding your wounds and your shame is so isolating and actually leaves you stuck in life. And then we're gonna talk about how to avoid unhealthy behavior patterns and how to break those cycles, especially the cycle of divorce. This is very tactical stuff, stuff you can do today that you're not gonna wanna miss.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the Restored podcast, helping you cope, heal, and grow. After your parents' divorce of separation so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 12. An important thing that I wanna say, starting out, especially to all you parents listening, we are not trying to villainize parents, not in this episode and not in anything that we do at Restored.

You're human, you make mistakes. We get that. We all do. And my guess is that when all of us are parents who, who aren't right now, we'll make plenty of mistakes too, and we'll have a deeper understanding of those mistakes. But what we're trying to do here, restored and in this episode, is help the children who are hurt by those mistakes to avoid repeating that same behavior, to avoid those things that we saw in our families that are objectively bad for us and for anyone.

And to do that, we have to acknowledge the bad behavior and the hurt. And I understand, I get it guys, that these conversations may be hard to hear. But we can't not talk about it just because it's difficult. These topics have been normalized for so long, divorce, a lot of other unhealthy things that happen in broken families, and that's damaged so many people.

The fact that it's been so normalized, which you'll hear about in this conversation, and I actually think that even parents who've made big mistakes in their families and their marriages actually want the same thing for their children that we do at restored. So I think we're actually on the same team.

We want to help them cope, heal, and grow so they can feel hold again and thrive to live life to the fullest and become who they were born to be. And while it's always our goal to speak the truth with clarity, we do have a huge. Of mercy for parents at restored. We know that all of us wrestle with our demons, and the important thing, of course, is seeking forgiveness and changing our lives.

So please know, parents, we're not trying to villainize you. We're just trying to help those of us who have been hurt by our parents' divorce or separation. And I challenge you in this episode to actually think about your own family, the family you come from, and your parents, and the impact that their choices and their behavior had on.

Okay. My guest today is Dr. Julia Sadusky. You just heard from her in episode 12, the last episode. She has a doctorate in psychology from Regent University. She's a clinical psychologist who works at Ed Care. That's a clinic that helps people with eating disorders in Denver. She's an author, speaker, and a research fellow with expertise in helping people with gender dysphoria where there's confusion about their sexuality or their gender identity.

And this is really important work, and there's not many people doing what Dr. Julia does in the way that she does it. She's also a consultant for leaders in ministry and she's actually opening her own private practice called Lux Counseling and Consulting. She'll offer individual therapy around the Denver area, and she'll offer training and consulting around sexuality and gender identity.

Dr. Sadusky is also a research fellow of this sexual and Gender Identity Institute in Wheaton, Illinois, and an advisor to the Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender. If you want a more complete rundown of everything she's done, you can, uh, listen to episode 12 where I, I went into more of her work for this episode.

I sat down with Dr. Julia for pizza at a local happy hour in Denver. The pizza was really good and obviously can't share that with you guys, but I'm pumped for you to hear what she has to say in this conversation here we. Dr. Julia, thank you so much for coming on the show. Yeah, happy to be here. The topic that we're talking about today is certainly a heavy topic, but it's an important one.

And I know from my own experience in talking with a lot of children of divorce, that so many of us are afraid to repeat our parents' mistakes. To repeat the bad things we saw in our family is we especially don't wanna get divorced ourselves. And statistically we're more likely to, which is scary, but it goes beyond that too.

We, you know, we've seen in many cases of divorce and separation, real dysfunction in our families. Whether it's alcoholism, whether it's an affair, drug use, porn use, uh, other addictions, you know, just serious disrespect, whatever might be. The list goes on and on, and most of us know. . We don't wanna repeat that, right?

We really want better for ourselves, for our lives, for our relationships. But often it happens that so many of us end up repeating that same behavior that we wanna avoid, right? And the examples of this are endless. The girl who grew up with an abusive father ends up marrying an abusive husband. The boy with an alcoholic father becomes an alcoholic.

The child whose mom or dad had an affair ends up cheating on their spouse. And that's always baffled me. I'll be honest with you. And I really want to know how do we prevent that from happening? But before we get to that question, I think it's important to dig into this question, which is why do we repeat bad behavior, especially the behavior that we've seen in our families.

Right. Well, it's a great one. I mean, it, it is baffling and I think for most of us, if we're honest, we don't want that at all. Not one bit. . And so when we do engage in behaviors that we've seen, um, that we hate , it often gets tied to shame. So, you know, there's, there's a lot of reasons for that. I think one of them, maybe the most obvious to people is the way modeling impacts us.

So if we don't know different, we can't do different. And even if we cognitively know there's other ways to be in the world mm-hmm. than the ways we were raised seeing is believing. Mm-hmm. and seeing gives us a path forward. So if I see modeled disrespect in a home between spouses, if conflict is normalized in my family, I can become so accustomed to that and also not really have a path for other options for me.

So as much as I want to do different, I can't be different without good role models. Um, I think actually the most, um, prominent reason though why we repeat the patterns that we hate is something called a repetition compulsion. So that in psychology is just a fancy way of saying that we do the same thing over and over again, expecting a better ending this time.

So we repeat, repeat, repeat, to try to get the end of the story to be different, to give us a sense of hope moving forward. So we might pick the exact same person that we were raised by, who was dysfunctional in the ways that you've already described, in the hopes that maybe. Tweak it. If I do this differently or that differently, or they're different in this way, or our interactions are different, maybe just maybe we can have a happy ending.

And so it's this kind of wish for things to be different without any evidence in that direction. So becomes somewhat of a fantasy Totally. That we try to live out. Correct. The bad outcome that we saw in our family. Is that right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is why victims or survivors of trauma really do tend to love forensics or love those kind of crime shows.

Mm-hmm. , they love seeing an ending where the person who did the crime gets caught. I mean, they love the justice and as, as we all would, I mean, we want an ending that's just, that's good. And where the bad guy gets put in jail mm-hmm. . Um, but when life isn't that, our mind does all kinds of things to make sense of that.

One of those things is a co the repetition conversion. No, that makes so much sense. And when it comes to modeling, just in case anyone isn't clear and what that is exactly, would you, would you explain that? Uh, briefly? Yeah. Yeah. So, You know, when we think of modeling, we think of the ways that all of us learn how to live.

We are social creatures. Um, we are learning creatures, and we do not come out of the womb knowing how to resolve conflict. So we learn how to resolve conflict, right? We're not to, And so modeling is just the idea that what we see, We end up doing, um, we mirror, uh, what we know and we become accustomed to what we know.

We even adapt to what we know. There's something really, um, intelligent about our brains that they can wire and shift and change based on what we see and what becomes reinforced in our environment. So every time you come home, you see conflict and you're used to that kind of heated romance that some couples are characterized by these intense ruptures and these intense repairs.

You're gonna look for that as a roadmap on a purely cognitive level, but not merely that. Mm-hmm. for how the world is and the people who are often in that position to model in a way that is most powerful are the people in our life who are our parents. So the way they do this, the way they do relationships with one another and with what with us is, is the way that you learn how to live.

It really forms us. Yes. And you can almost think of an analogy of, and it's not really an analogy, it's real life. Mm-hmm. Where, you know, a baby comes into the world and it's almost all they've ever known. Mm-hmm. is, this is what they see. It's almost like the Truman Show. Yeah. And if you haven't seen the Truman Show, it's basically this man who has grown up in this fake world and that's all he's ever known.

And so, You know, it's what he expects, what he is comfortable with, and eventually he goes beyond that. And I won't ruin the movie for you if you haven't seen it, but, um, it's almost like that, that we're just conditioned where we become used to what we see around us. Yeah. Is that, I know I'm bringing it down to like really basic language, but Absolutely.

Absolutely. I, I think that's a big piece of it. I mean, I think, and what our normal is, we adjust to, and we can become comfortable. Even if it's dysfunctional. And so actually a lot of times what I hear from survivors of trauma who have been in abusive relationships for a long time, they often say that when they need a person who's stable, who's functional, who can attend to their needs in a way that's different from what they experienced before they're bored.

Wow. They're not satisfied because it's so different from the dysfunction that they've experienced before. And lastly, I'll say, you know, another piece of it is we have this desire to be like our parents. And I know we've talked about this other times, that we want to be people who our parents can be proud of.

So even if we can on a cognitive level, say, I don't wanna be my, like my dad in this way or that way, we also wanna be accepted by dad. And there's something in us that says, if I act as if he does, if I be like him, maybe just, maybe I'll be accepted by him. And therein is the challenge is how do we form and maintain relationships with people who are dysfunctional in ways we don't wanna be.

Yeah. While still honoring the ways we want to be validated by that. That's such a challenge because basically what you're saying is even on a subconscious level mm-hmm. , we tend towards that. We tend towards seeking our parents' approval. We tend toward, you know, wanting to be liked by them. And can this even happen in a case of someone who maybe hates their parents sad?

Absolutely. Absolutely. If anything, it's the resentment towards the parents that drives the behavior. Hmm. So at that point, it's not a conscious choice. Right. But it's a way of punishing parents to make them come to an awareness of what they quote unquote did to us. Mm. You know, I'm gonna give you a mirror for how you lived in the world all those years.

Hmm. And I'm gonna make you feel the impact. I'm gonna almost punish you. For the ways that you hurt me by creating a scenario where you experience the other side of it. Wow, man. That there's so much there and it's, I think so many people go through life doing exactly what you said without even realizing it.

Absolutely. I mean, that's the, you know, in the work I do as a psychologist, that that's the essential place of therapy is, is. There's no shortage of people out there who are absolutely, are frustrated with the repetitive patterns that we engage in, in relationships, in the way we talk to ourselves about ourselves.

Um, what we end up doing a lot of times is staying in that place of anger, frustration. I can't believe it. What's wrong with me? That I do this thing that I hate. Yeah. Rather than saying, Of course I do that. Right? Of course, given the context of my life, I live in the world this way today. The key point, the point of change is saying, I have power today that I didn't have before, so I'm gonna enact change.

I'm gonna learn skills to break away from repetitive patterns that keep me stuck so good. We'll get into that a little bit more. Sure. One of the things you had mentioned to me too is that this almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Explain that a little bit more about self-fulfilling prophecy.

Absolutely. Yeah. So, you know, this is kind of a classic cognitive distortion that we have where we fear something, right? We fear that an outcome will happen, I'll get divorced, but we also, if we're honest, don't believe there's another pathway. For us. What we've seen is divorce, or what we've seen is adultery.

And so we say, Honestly, I don't think anything else is possible. . And so my fear actually leads me and compels me to make decisions that drives me in the very path that I'm afraid of because I have no belief that there's another option for me. The whole time sitting there saying, I don't want to do that, I don't want to be that person, but not being able to step into a place of ownership over the patterns that we're literally engaging in on a daily basis that reinforce what we hate.

Wow. So we sabotage ourselves. Yeah. By doing that. Yes. That makes so much sense. And in a very real way, our. The dysfunction that we see gives us somewhat of a high, You've told me that before. Mm-hmm. . And that's one of the reasons why we repeat this stuff, is because normal feels boring, as you said. Yeah.

And we just don't know how to do normal. It feels uncomfortable. It feels weird, it feels strange. It's just not right to us. So it gives us that rush. Talk about that a little bit. Yeah. Um, well, you know, I think of different people I've worked with in therapy who have shared with me. You know, I just, I don't want know what to do when there isn't chaos.

I don't know how to be, I don't know how to relate. When I feel the most alive is when I'm in a conflict, when I'm in a fight with my partner. And without that adrenaline rush, life is less reinforcing. Right? I mean, sitting on the couch and having somebody come home and say, Hey, hun, how was your day? And it's like, Oh, it was great.

I mean, Real life is not fireworks every second. Totally. But when we are accustomed to that rush of adrenaline, that intensity of relationships, a stable, consistent covenantal relationship can become not a appealing mm-hmm. . Right. And if we can't even talk about that, if we can't even name the challenges there, the ways we've become accustomed to dysfunction in a way that we don't know what to do in a stable relationship.

Mm-hmm. , that's where we really get into trouble because we start to look for that rush for that adrenaline somewhere else. That arousal. Exactly. And there's no shortage of options out there that work. Sure. To give that rush. With bad consequences in the future. Absolutely, and and mainly consequences that bring great change and reinforce the beliefs that there is no other way to do relationships than in a catastrophic way.

And then we're just essentially going through this cycle of trauma where we experience this in our families. Let's say we repeat it in our own lives, we're ashamed of that. We pull away from people we don't see killing, we maybe do it again. Yep. And again, whatever the pattern might be. Yep. Absolutely. I mean, I, I think so often, and, and we can talk about trauma as big tea, tea trauma or small tea traumas, the little things that happen in life, and I say little because comparatively we can all minimize them.

You know, that's how we talk about them. We say, Well, it wasn't that big of a deal. My parents just got divorced. And the way that's been normalized creates a scenario where that's not traumatic, although it really is if we're honest. And so when we have those small tea traumas or um, big tea traumas, either way, what we end up doing is we end up recapitulating that recreating a scenario where that happens again.

Why is that? Because of a fundamental question of our self worth. Mm-hmm. So we start to say, I'm worthy. Of this. Why? Because that's less painful than saying, How dare the people in my life treat me in a way that is so beneath my destiny, like, I deserve this. Yes. That's a way, Another way that we adjust, We say, Oh, well, I must just be worthy of this.

This is my, this is my foundation for life. This is what I'm worthy of being treated. And so when we make that cognitive jump where we say, This is who I am, we will only engage in relationships that reciprocate in that way, and on an unconscious level, be receptive to things that if we had a different level of self-worth, we would bristle out.

We know that we're worth more. We know that we deserve better than what we saw in our past. Right? But how else would we know that unless we were treated in a way that showed us we had dignity and we want to believe on a purely. , you know, fundamental level as a child that our parents are trustworthy.

Think about how important that is. Mm-hmm. to be able to trust your parents as a kid, that is the most essential thing. And so if we didn't adapt in that way, we would really be in trouble. . Yeah. But now it doesn't serve us because we have to realize our parents are flawed. They're not the villain, they're not the monster in our story, but they are responsible in some ways for their flaws, their limits that have impacted us.

Yeah. Now that's so good. And as we've talked about at different times in the show, we're not trying to, you know, like you said, villain i's parents just give an acknowledgement to the pain that the children have experienced. And there is a way to do that without condemning the parents. And that's always the balance that we're we're trying to hit.

Of course. While at the same time admitting this. The truth that this is harmful, that this thing that happened wasn't good. It wasn't good for me, for my siblings and so on. So yeah, it's a delicate balance. We're always trying to hit, but I'm, uh, I'm glad you said that. Mm-hmm. . Yeah, I mean, I think we're always trying to figure out, you know, what can we do differently in the future?

And if we can't acknowledge mistakes of people that we respect, where are we in that process of not repeating patterns? Even in the case where people say, Well, it's better that they got divorced than if they had stayed together. I was miserable as a kid when they were together. Even in those cases, we have to be able to acknowledge the hurt that comes as a result of the divorce, right?

Because all of the implications of that process, the awkward holidays, the pickups from schools, whatever it might be, trying to figure out where do I feed people at a wedding? I mean, all of these long-term impacts are so painful and they're not the kind of thing in our society that gets validated. It's so normalized that there's no room and space for people to say, Hey, that hurts, which is essential for healing.

Yeah. It's so sad and so many people listening have been through exactly what you said, you know? They just feel that what they've been through, the pain they've experienced, no one's validated, no one's said, Hey, what you went through mattered. It was really hard. It wasn't supposed to be that way. And I'm sorry we, we don't hear that often, but I'm glad that you're bringing attention to that.

Yeah. Well, and it has to be said in an ongoing way. I mean, for people who are wanting to support people, um, who are surviving from kind of some of the most painful situations in life, it has to be an ongoing dialogue because you know this, I mean, it doesn't stop at one experience. Right. The implications of it exist for the rest of our lives.

Totally. And that doesn't mean we can't have mastery over our experiences or some level of freedom and capacity to manage them. It just means it hurts. Yeah. It doesn't stop hurting. The grief does not end, and that's not problematic in and of itself as long as we figure out what to do with it. Yeah.

That's so good. We have to say that. It's okay not to be okay. Yeah. And we don't wanna stay there, but it's okay to not be okay. And to go through that, that pain and just feeling broken. Yeah. There's, We often just try to stuff that away and hide it and put on a good front and make everyone think like we have everything together, when in reality we don't.

Right. And the, that's harmful, isn't it? So, Oh, the inauthenticity of that is so isolating. What a lonely place to be. Yeah. To have the burden of presenting in a certain way everywhere you go, as if everything's good. I'm good. And, and you, you know, you said it that, you know, it's hard to be in that place where we have to act as if everything's okay, but it's actually an essential step to move forward to acknowledge where we are.

Acceptance is key to change. Acceptance of our current reality is the precursor to change for many of us. Once somebody says, Gosh, that sucks. Only then. Are we ready to say, Yeah, but I wanna do something about it. Right? Yeah. Amen. And it's so much better. And when it comes from within, that's so good. You're not stuck.

You can do something about it. And we're gonna get to that more, but one other component to this, these sort of. Actions, these behaviors can seem someone like a forbidden fruit that can be attractive in that way. Yeah, and I've even heard people say who come from, you know, a family where there is an affair.

They say, Well, you know, adultery seems attractive to me. Yeah. And that's so interesting. Yeah. Talk about that a little bit. Yeah. Well, I think that a piece of it is what I've already mentioned, which is just that reality that we admire people by the virtue of their place in our life. So parents have a private place, right?

And we admire them. Even if on a cognitive level we could say, Oh, that's not objectively good for me. Um, but any time we have sexual desires say that are, um, seen as forbidden fruit, they're more appealing to us. It's the rush that comes from that, especially as young people, right? I mean, what young person doesn't love to push the boundaries a little bit?

Yeah. So if we stay in that, Of like, this is desirable for me. I can't talk about it, but I can long for it. It creates space for fantasy, and what we don't see is the guilt and shame on the other side of those behaviors, right? Because dad doesn't come home talking about that, or mom doesn't come home and share about that.

What we see is the illusion of freedom or kind of an a radical liberty that comes from that, and who doesn't want that? So I think it's a matter of figuring out what is motivating me towards that. What do I truly desire beneath the surface that that represents for me? Mm-hmm. and how do I get that without behaviors that leads to great change and the dissolution potentially of relationships I really care about.

Mm-hmm. , that makes so much sense and. One of the things we talked about as well is that often the anticipation can be more of a rush, more of a hi than the act itself. Yeah. Why is that? Yeah, it's super fascinating. I mean, I don't know that there's a a why as much as what we know about, um, you know, if we're, if we're talking about compulsive sexual behaviors, for instance, or an affair, um, that the, the process of preparation for that, the planning, the texting, the anticipation of the event, it's actually where the most reinforcement happens on a neurological level.

So the brain chemistry is acting as if you've. The fullness of it. By the very nature of planning, that process is so reinforcing. It's where the rush happens. It's where the adrenaline is going. It's like, it's like that moment when you're a kid, right? And you're getting chased and you're about to get caught, but you're not quiet.

I mean, that. is what you end up living for. Um, we call that the ritual. Hmm. So the ritual in the addictive process is actually what's most reinforcing the culmination of it, whether it be in a sexual act or just any level of behavior that we've deemed, um, against our values. That is actually disappointing comparatively.

Yeah. It's a let down. Yeah. So that it's, it's so interesting to think about how the actual ritual, the planning is what is really reinforcing. If you merely disrupt the plan, people can make a different decision. Wow. That's powerful. And something that's baffled me that you, you mentioned. A little bit is in those moments, you know, you said we don't think of the consequences.

We don't see the consequences that the bad things that could come about. We act purely off emotion. Yeah. We act off of, you know, this desire for this high. Yeah. And on on like this. Scientific level, what's happening in our brains? Yeah. When, when we do this. Yeah. It's a great question. I mean, I think it helps people with the shame that people often feel about like, why do I do that?

You know, Why do I act out of emotion? Whether it's like I punch that wall when I'm angry, or um, whatever it might be. But what's happening is we have different parts of our brain that are the home of different aspects of our experience. So take emotion, for instance. It's called the amygdala, but this is the part of our brain that stores memories and also it's firing when we feel intense emotions, those kind of inside out emotions.

And when that part is activated, the part of our brain that judges, it's called the prefrontal cortex, It's the part that anticipates consequences. It's the adult part that fully develops at about 25. That part is deactivated when we're firing from our amygdala. Why is that so important and adaptive? Well, I mean, think about it, if I'm, if I'm standing in a forest and a line is coming, I don't wanna be sitting there thinking, Oh, well how long do I have?

And what consequences will come from this line attacking me? Well, by the time I'm thinking about that, he's got me mm-hmm. . So this is an adaptive part of our brain that the prefrontal cortex shuts off. Mm-hmm. when our amygdala is going. Mm. And so what we have to do is learn how to reengage that prefrontal cortex.

This is actually what's most prominent in humans. This is our capacity. We get to say, Oh, let me observe. What's happening for me, I'm feeling this rush, rush of emotion. This intense affective experience. I want this thing, Well, I have to actually train my brain to be activated in the part of me that says, what are the consequences of this?

Mm-hmm. , what will come from this? What will flow from this? Let's play the tape all the way through. Mm-hmm. , how will that play out? And do I still want that thing? We actually have to do that from an active level, or it won't happen. What are some practical ways that you can do that? Cause what I hear you saying, We need to detach.

Mm-hmm. from the intensity of the emotion and the moment kind of step away. Either physically or just emotionally. Yeah. How do we get control and as opposed to letting our emotions control us. Yeah. Well, I think a big piece of it is what we call mindfulness, which is how do I become a notice or observer, almost like a journalist about my own experience?

That's where we begin to tap into that prefrontal cortex is asking the question, What's happening to me right now? What am I feeling? What am I thinking, and what do I feel inclined to do? So literally breaking up to thoughts, feelings, and behavior. And giving yourself space to actually reflect on that, to observe that, and then say, What do I wanna do with that?

Because I mean, we're thinking about, um, affairs, those types of things is we can often feel, especially with something as strong as sexual desire, like we're compelled by it, We don't have a choice. Mm-hmm. . And when we feel that, we have to recognize that every single impulse, every single, single urge that we have will peak and then it will subside.

So if you ride an urge, you set a timer for 45 minutes and you say, Okay, I'm gonna delay this for 45 minutes until I, I get there. And then I think, do I still want this? Mm-hmm. , that's a way to realize that everything has peaks and valleys, and we will have much more of a say over the decisions we make if we ride a wave.

Whether it be of emotion or of an urge, we will subside and we will make a more effective decision because we'll have more contact with our rational mind. So it's something called Wise Mind is when am I only living in emotional mind? There's a common kind of D B T, which is a type of therapy concept.

When am I emotional mind? When am I in rational mind and when am I in wife's mind, which is the integration of the two? How do I use my observing self to make a decision that I feel proud of later? No, that makes, That makes summer sense and. Just the, the awareness was really the starting point, like you said, being an observer, almost stepping outside of your own body, so to speak.

Mm-hmm. and seeing kind of what's going on. And only by doing that can you kind of override that, the amygdala, like you said, which is just a paint a picture in everyone's minds. The amygdala is located in the back part of your brain. Mm-hmm. , like just above your neck. Is that. Okay. So yeah, it's a little bit, it's kind of, um, to the side back portion of the brain.

So it's right next to, um, parts of our brain that store memories. Mm-hmm. and the part of our brain in the back, that kind of brain stem is our core, um, survival mechanism. So that's what helps us breathe. That's where our heart rate is. It's called the brain stem. And so it's interesting because emotions tend to trigger that part of our brain, right?

Heart racing, sweating, all of these things. But the, a amygdala has the capacity, um, to be regulated by the prefrontal cortex. It just won't do it. Zone. Mm-hmm. . So it takes our active pursuit to make that possible. Yeah. It's not gonna happen, like you said, um, automatically. Right. It's not gonna happen without intention out it, so.

Exactly. That makes so much sense. One thing that I think is helpful too, is something you once said to me that you can't make sense out of evil. Like, and, and understanding why we repeat bad behavior that we've seen. We really need to understand this, don't we? Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I, I think. One of the biggest challenges for people who've experienced divorce is recognizing, um, you know, you frame it as evil, but just the way that those experience were not how things were originally meant to be.

So that when we feel ill equipped to handle them, when we feel like we can't make sense of them, it's because they're nonsensical. You know, what's more nonsensical than a vow made for eternal love until death west part that gets broken. It's nonsensical. You can rationalize it all day. You can blame yourself all day, but that will not make sense of what not comfortable.

And so there does come a point in our lives where we have to put down the tug of war rope and say, I'm done trying to make sense of something that makes no sense. I'm just gonna try to live in the reality I have. That makes. That makes sense, , as they say. Yeah. How, uh, I'd like to walk through a concrete example, just taking what we've talked about and applying it to a scenario that, uh, may be familiar to some people.

Mm-hmm. . And let's say, let's say there's a boy whose dad cheated on his ma mm-hmm. . Okay. And then he, he doesn't want to repeat that. Yeah. He kind of despises that, that hurt him too. Yeah. Because, you know, as we know, when there's an affair in a family, whether it's a mom or the dad, they're not just cheating on the spouse, but on the kids as well.

And so, like, the boys hurt and then later in life for the reasons we've discussed and maybe others that can't really be understood. Mm-hmm. , he ends up cheating on his. Right. Why, What's going on there? What is he looking for in the midst of that? Talk us through, talk us through that. Yeah. Well I think, I think, you know, we've talked about that fantasy piece.

I mean, part of it is that there will be a different ending. That could mean, you know, I have this affair and it doesn't have the negative impact it had on me. Part of it is I'm gonna test myself. I'm gonna put myself in those situations and hope that I'm stronger in the ways that my parent wants it. And so part of it's that not really appreciating that.

This does not discriminate, and I think part of it is that kind of desire to be acceptable and the fear of what it would mean to acknowledge that dad made mistakes. The anger that flows from that, the regret that flows from that, the resentment that inevitably comes that ill-equipped. We don't know what to do with, So I think that's what makes the healing.

Through this. So essential is that none of us are exempt from this. You know, those of us who are, who have experienced divorce in our families, we know that in 99% of cases, people don't stand at that alter and lie. Yeah. You know, they commit to something willfully and they break that. . And so being able to appreciate NPI is exempt and being able to talk about the challenges they're in and being able to talk about the moments that put you at great risk and being able to plan for them and to invest in a relationship lifelong that will not be what an affair offers are important because the forbidden fruit is desirable, but it's not meaningful.

Mm-hmm. and it leaves us one thing. Yeah. So we have to play that take through. Yeah. It leaves ust than mm-hmm. we begin and Yeah. Promises so much, but delivers on nothing. Right. That makes so much sense. That was my experience in different things I engaged in when I was younger, like pornography was, you know, an escape from the pain and the problems in my life and it ended up just leave me.

I'm tear and empty each time and, uh, I didn't want that. I wanted to be happy. And so it makes so much sense what you're saying and the, the part about testing ourselves, that's really interesting. It's almost like, like you said, the fantasy portion. Mm-hmm. . We wanna people to reverse what happened or maybe even play out like, like you've said.

Mm-hmm. what we wish would've happened. Right. Like, okay, maybe I start this affair, but then I'm strong enough to stop it or something like that. Exactly. And do you see how, even as you say it out loud, it's like you start to realize the way it doesn't hang together. Yeah. It's like, Oh, that doesn't really make sense.

But once we start to vocalize and name what we're, what we're thinking through, it's like, Oh, that doesn't really work. Yeah. On a cognitive level and also on an emotional level, it's like, that's not really what I want. But I think you're right. I mean, I think we, we long for a different ending. and we don't appreciate, um, what it would take to get there.

Yeah. And what it would take is a real level of awareness on honesty and transparency about the challenges, being able to work through them so we're not filling holes so we can actually be what we needed. Yeah. Because I think that's the ultimate fulfillment of what that fantasy is, is like how do I be in like what I needed?

And we get to be that when we're faithful to spouses, we get to be that when we challenge compulsive behaviors. And that is most satisfying. Yeah, exactly. But it doesn't happen immediately like some of these other highs, right? Yeah. Our brain, our brain gets that high. Of the adrenaline of the, or whatever chemicals of the affair, of the crime, of the pornography, of the drug use, whatever might be.

Exactly. So we, we really have to play that long game, which is hard. Yes. And it's harder when we're younger. Okay. Because that part of the brain, that prefrontal cortex is not fully developed yet. So until about age 25, that's not all firing. Yeah. So that's why it's so much more difficult at those ages to make a decision that later we look back on and we're proud of.

And so it's almost like a buying time strategy to say, Hey, let me just extend this. Let me just weigh this longer so I can make a better decision. That makes. And just, uh, again, go into a little bit of the science. The prefrontal cortex is at the, for, at your forehead, essentially. Is that right? Correct.

Yeah. Front of your brain. And, and that's the part that does the judging, thinking, reasoning, anticipating consequences. Okay. All important things kind. Yeah. Kind of important. Well, those are the things that make us humans. They set us apart. They set us the apart from the animals. Exactly. Lots of preachers have a brain stem.

Okay. Yeah. That keep 'em alive. That, that makes so much sense. So, back to the original question, how, and, and we've already gone through this to some extent, but let's really flush it out. How can we prevent repeating the bad behavior? Been victims of, or we've seen in our families, in our parents' marriage, whatever it might be, How?

How can we reverse that dysfunction? Yeah. Well, the first step is talking about the dysfunction. Owning it, naming it, and not being afraid of it. So being able to acknowledge and accept the reality as it is that was dysfunctional, period. Those things in my past were dysfunctional in the present. How do I see those patterns playing out?

What are the warning signs? What are the things I notice in my relationships and my patterns of experiencing myself and other people that put me at great risk to repeat the very things I don't want? How can I be honest about that with safe people? And then what do I want to do about that? So realizing that the past has power in our presence, that it does not determine our future.

And where do I need to break the patterns, break the chains that find me to a future that I hate, And what are the ways that I'm gonna concretely learn from people, invite role models into my life, who can speak into it, who can represent a future I can thrive in? And if we don't have role models for healthy marriage, We're gonna be really stuck in the how to.

We're gonna say, I don't want this, I don't want that, but I have no idea what I'm stepping into. So that's where we need other people who are doing this work, who are living this, to reinstall our hope in our humanity. Mm-hmm. . And then to be able to watch and learn and say, Okay, these are the steps I'm gonna take.

How am I gonna engage in relationships, foster what I want, and run from the things that don't? And how am I gonna have a community of people around me who can see what I don't yet see and can acknowledge blind spots and include therapy, but is not exclusively that. But how do I have people in my corner who know what ultimately my values are, what I'm working for, and can help me get there?

That makes so much sense. There's so much there. But I love the first thing that you said, really naming it. Mm. Putting it into words as something that I've found extremely helpful. The people that I work with have found extremely helpful. Yeah. Just naming it, you know, whether you're naming it in your mind or taking it except further and putting it on paper or taking it except further and talking with someone, a counselor, Right.

A mentor, a friend even, Right. Who is able to just kind of receive what you're saying. And even when we were talking before about the affair and just putting that stuff into words, um, things just make more sense that when they're out of our chest, out of our heads, Yes. And they help us make sense of the world of ourselves and essentially lead us, can lead us to making better decisions.

So that awareness piece and putting things into words really, like you said is the starting point and that. Probably where most of us just need to focus on right now. Absolutely. Yeah. Acceptance is the precursor for change. You know, I've said that elsewhere, that that change requires great acceptance. And acceptance is not a just, Yep.

That was hard. It's a sitting in the emotions that emerge from the realities we've had. It's not pretending they don't exist. It's not saying that didn't matter. Right. It's actually saying, This hurt, this mattered. What happened to me wasn't Right. Right. But staying with it, staying in that messiness Yeah.

Long enough to feel it and then closing that chapter, the story Yeah. Is ultimately where we're heading towards. Is that right? Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I think we've talked about this in other conversations about a narrative understanding of our lives. So I, you know, initially you talked about being from broken families, and I think there's a part of me that even like bristles with that, Right.

Because it's painful. Mm-hmm. to acknowledge that. But if there's a chapter three, you know, three years back in my life that says, Yep, that was the Broken Family chapter, it's a question of what do I want to name the current chapter? Do I want it to be a broken future? Do I want to be a broken relationship, or do I want it to be broken and healing?

Yeah. Do I want it to. broken and working really hard to glue it all back together. I mean, what, what does that look like? Right. And the cool thing about a narrative understanding of our lives, which is like a kind of therapeutic way of thinking about ourselves is, is saying, I get to take the pen back as an adult.

Even if the first three chapters were written by somebody else, I did not have control over how that chapter ended, the themes of it, or the dominant characters. I am the character today, and who else am I gonna help co, co-write this story? Mm-hmm. and the audience matters, the co, you know, authors matter and that takes great discern in to figure out who do we bring into our story.

Totally. And the co-authors, I love that because like you said before, having. A community of people. Mm-hmm. , who can motivate you, keep you accountable. Yeah. To get what you truly want. Those deep desires in our hearts, cuz often we just go after the shallow desires in our hearts that long for, you know, instant gratification, pleasure, power, whatever, maybe.

So we really need to have people encourage us and help us along that path and going after what matters the most. Is that right? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Friendships have been so healing for me. And role models, you said that too. So important. The mentors in my life really have redefined certain parts of my life that I believe to be a certain way, like lies that I believed about, whether it was fatherhood, motherhood, man.

Whatever might be. Yep. Relationships they were able to redefine. I thought of it one way and then I met these people, for example, like you said, who had good marriages. Yeah. And then I was able to see, wait, it is possible. Cause I doubted it was even possible. Yeah. So surrounding yourself with those people is so healing.

And I've experienced that in my own life. And people who've, uh, talked with me have seen the same results, which is, which is awesome. So all those really practical and, and good tips you mentioned before that we can get stuck in this mindset where our emotions are controlling us. Mm-hmm. and we talked about kind of detaching ourselves in those moments.

Mm-hmm. and trying to get control. Setting a timer you said, which is cool cuz it is so interesting. I wanted to comment on. We tend to think that an urge that we have mm-hmm. if we don't satisfy it Right. It won't go away. Right. And and you're saying the opposite, You're saying it will go away. Yeah. It's not just gonna get more and more intense.

It actually will peak and then go down. Exactly. On a a physiological level, it's impossible for an urge to last forever. It will subsid either way. The reason where reinforced by those behaviors is we engage in them . Yeah. And they bring it down. And so we don't come to know that it will come down other ways.

Huh. That makes so much. My question is kind of going before that. Okay. How do we prevent ourselves from even getting to that point? Is that even possible? Yeah. I mean, I think there are things we can do, um, on a purely physiological level to manage our emotions in a different way. So, So, I mean, you know, in psychology there's the foundational and just epic understanding of deep breathing, right?

And the ways that we can regulate from a top down approach that when we start to notice that things are activated, that we're activated, we can self regulate in those moments. We can bring the intense emotion down in a way that's more within our control. But I think you spoke to it. I mean, who is in our corner, who is helping us see our blind spots before we hit them?

And that's essential. I mean, we cannot do it alone. Um, that isolation is really a black hole. And you know, our thoughts are really wonderful. Our emotions are really wonderful, but left alone, they can really torment us. And so being in a community of people who can see what we don't yet see. And being willing to be vulnerable about the struggles along the way can keep us from getting to a point where it feels like we've crossed that line.

Mm-hmm. . Um, and I, I think good guidance from other people is pretty integral for that. You have to ask for help. Yes. And why do we usually wait? You, you, you elaborated on this more in our episode on counseling and how counseling. But if you would touch on it a little bit here, why do we usually wait till things get worse until we ask for help?

Yeah. We have this great illusion of self sufficiency. Um, we love the thought that we are in complete control over our lives, over our experiences, and that we have no need of others. Um, it is so sad because we are inherently social creatures. I mean, on a purely, you know, biological level. We need people.

And so the illusion of self sufficiency is a more controlled reality. It's a more predictable reality. It's one where I'm com controlling more of the variables, but it's one that is inherently lonely and keeps us stuck in pattern that we can break on our own. The objectivity is necessary, and we cannot be objective on our own.

We have too many flaws. You know, we are so limited by our own experiences, and so until we can normalize weakness, normalize blind spots, normalize questions without answers, we can't figure out and have the space for curiosity in life. We can't take risks and learn from others if we can't be in touch with our own need for others.

Yeah, we'll continue to play it safe in. Just to be comfortable and kind of live a life of mediocrity, which is not what we're made for. And it's so sad when I see that that's one of my greatest fears is living the life of mediocrity. And it's sad when I see it, um, you know, in other people or even in myself.

Yeah. And I just wanna run from that and yeah, it's, it's important to remember that we're made for more than that, so really good advice. Yeah. Made for more incapable of more, and I think that's huge here, is that we actually have the capacity for more in community than we'd be capable of on our own. That makes some make sense.

We're almost relying on a strength that we don't have in ourselves, but others can do. And it takes humility Yeah. To, to do that. But man, guys, you'll be so happy if you do. In, in closing out the show, what words of encouragement would you give to someone who's really afraid of repeating the bad behavior that they saw in their families, especially when it comes to their parents' marriage.

They don't want to repeat that, but, But in other areas as well. Yeah. What would you say? ? Well firstly that you're not alone. I mean, that is a real fear. Um, an understandable one, and one that's laid in with a lot of complexity. It's not as simple as saying, I don't want that. So the anxiety there is real, um, and worth listening to.

The other thing I'll say though is, um, what my therapist said to me once, which is that you do realize that this doesn't have to be the end of your story too. That when I look back at, um, my own parents' relationship, the way it ended was not the way I want any relationship to end. And I'm okay. My heart's still beating, and I get to decide what I do about that.

Mm-hmm. and I get to take the pen back. I get to work my butt off and to position myself in such a way where I don't have to recreate a cycle. So we have autonomy. In ways we don't even realize, but we need to start to realize we actually do have a choice. And there is great freedom and great hope in a life that comes on the other side of divorce, on the other side of separation.

But it will not come for free. It will take work. And so if you're feeling that that's real and my hope is that together we can figure out about, That's beautiful. And is there a specific type of therapy that people should seek out for that? Or what? What should they be communicating to a counselor if they're have this fear of repeating this bad behavior?

What would they say? Well, you know, I'm gonna just give a global apology for therapists all over, because I think the field of psychology as a whole made a mistake many years ago in saying that divorce was a good thing because if the parents were happy, the children would be happy and we were wrong. All of the research now shows a really different picture of that.

It's. And so there's an apology there. You know, I'm sorry for the ways that was misleading, but I think there are therapists who still lead with that kind of perspective. So in so far as we're talking about therapy, it's essential to figure out, will this person appreciate what was so damaging about that and not collude with the parts of me that feel drawn to that.

And that's pretty essential because in a, in a culture where divorce adultery are increasingly normalized, pornography increasingly normalized, albeit shown by all the research, not helpful. Um, you have a right to to know it's the person who's guiding you on the same page with you about that. Do they have the values that you have or can they help you get to the values that you won't realize in your life?

Um, pretty important in a culture where we've been led to right before by therapist. That that's an excellent point and that's why we're building a network of counselors that we trust that you guys can trust for you. And, uh, I'll talk about that more at the end of the show. But Dr. Julia, thank you so much for being here with us.

Thank you for your wisdom, for the practical guidance and advice that you gave. And if anyone wants to connect with you, how could they do that? Yeah. Um, best way to contact me is email, so Dr. D r uh, my last name is Dusky, S as in Sam, a d as in dog, q s as Sam k y gmail.com. So dr eski gmail.com. Awesome. And we'll put that in the show notes for you guys so you don't need to remember it.

Julia, thank you so much for, for being here. I know we're all better for Thank you.

That conversation blew me away. Part of the reason I wanted to cover this topic is that I've never heard a discussion like this before, and I hope you guys benefited as much as I did. In fact, I really recommend that you listen to this again and even take notes to get everything you can out of it. I already have done that, and I will do it again.

And one thing I wanna say to all of you guys who question your self worth, hear me out. You are priceless. And I don't mean that in a phy way. I genuinely mean you are priceless. Your value as a person is much more than all the money in the world. You are an unrepeatable person. You're worth dying for.

You're worth being loved. You're worth being treated with the respect that you deserve. And I also can say that you're worth all the effort, all the hours, all the money, all the sacrifices that it takes to produce this podcast and to run restored. So let that sink in. And I say that because like Dr. Julia, We tend to settle for things in life, things that are below our dignity because we think we're not worth much.

So just know that you are worth more, and I'm happy to remind you guys if you forget that. Some other takeaways. Awareness. Awareness, awareness. Awareness is the foundation. It's the starting point. Listening to conversations like these really helps to build awareness, to understand yourself and the people that you love.

And to take it a step further, we have to reflect on how we may be falling into unhealthy patterns that we learned in our families. We almost have to analyze ourselves and then. To name it, to journal about it, to talk to a friend or a mentor about it, to put it into words. Talking about the dysfunction and how we've become used to it helps us to actually overcome it.

Next takeaway. Acceptance is the key. Without accepting our past, without accepting our lives as they are, we can't change or improve. That's what Dr. Julia said, And if you've made some big mistakes in life, guys, of course, seek forgiveness, make things right. If you're Catholic, go to confession and if you've been hurt in a serious way, of course seek healing.

Forgive the people who've hurt you, but then accept the fact that it's part of your story. It doesn't define you, but we can't erase it, and we can't keep pretending that it isn't part of our story. We have to make peace with it, and that will help us overcome the shame and the fear that often leave us feeling stuck in life that hold us back in life.

Next takeaway. Seek out mentors, role models that you want to be like. And guys, this isn't just for kids. We all need mentors. We all need role models. And this doesn't have to just be in person. Like that's ideal if you can have an actual relationship with someone, but someone can mentor you through their books, through videos, through podcasts, et cetera.

For example, you know, Winston Churchill obviously isn't alive right now, but you can be mentored by him through his writing. And of course, as we always say, spend time with good marriages, especially if you're afraid of repeating what you saw in your parents' marriage. If you're afraid of getting divorced, which so many of us are, spend time with good marriages.

Marriages that you wanna repeat, you wanna emulate. Because like Dr. Julia said, we get used to what we see around us, and we repeat that. So surround yourself with people that you wanna be like, and that includes your mentors, of course, but also your friends. Next takeaway, I love what Dr. Julia said. Play the tape to the end.

So tempting situations, detach, take a step back, get outta the house, Do whatever you need to, to just remove yourself from that situation. And then play the situation out. Play out, okay, how does this end? Where does this leave me? What are the consequences that will come from this? And then ask yourself, Don't just scare yourself, but ask yourself this question.

Is this what I really want? Is this what I really want? What's underneath this desire that I have for whatever unhealthy thing that I wanna do? And in my case, in my struggle with pornography, what it was for me was, of course there was the sexual urge, but underneath that, I just wanted to feel wanted. And so if I needed to ask the question, how else can I feel wanted, What else can I do that's healthy, that will make me feel wanted, that will fill that need?

The last takeaway is get to work. Do not wait till things get worse. Do not wait until you hit rock bottom. Do it now. You can heal, you can change. You can transform your life. You're not doomed to repeat your parents' mistakes. You're not doomed to live a life of mediocrity. You can write your own story.

You can live a meaningful, joyful, good life. And we're here to help you guys. We're here to support you on that journey. And one resource I mentioned that can help you do that is our coaching network. We're building a network of counselors and spiritual directors that we vet, that we trust and that we recommend to you, and it's really easy to find.

A spiritual director or a counselor. Three steps. First, go to restored ministry.com/coaching. Again, that's restored ministry. It's just singular ministry singular.com/coaching. The next step is fill out a form should take you 60 seconds at most, and then we'll connect you with a counselor or a few counselors.

Again, that's restored ministry.com/coaching. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 12. That's the number 12. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful for you, I want to ask you as something, would you leave us a review on Apple Podcasts? We'd love to hear how we're doing to serve you guys, and it's really easy to do.

The first step is just open the Apple Podcast app. In fact, you may already have it open right now. The second is to search restored podcasts, or click on it in your library if you're already subscribed, and then just scroll down to where it says ratings and reviews. And the last step is just to tap the stars, to rate the show.

And if you have time, write a review. Should take two to three minutes tops, and we'd really appreciate it. Not only does it give us a good gauge of how we're serving you, but it also helps us to reach more people by making this podcast more visible in Apple podcasts. And as always, please share this episode with someone that you know who could use it.

Always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

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#011: I Thought My Parents’ Divorce Didn’t Affect Me | Jennifer Cox

Jen thought her parents’ divorce didn’t affect her - until her brokenness surfaced at 26 on a medical mission in Honduras.

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Jen thought her parents’ divorce didn’t affect her - until her brokenness surfaced at 26 on a medical mission in Honduras. Still, she didn’t make the connection between her struggles and her parents’ breakup right away.

In this episode, you’ll hear her story, her struggles, and how she has healed. She also shares advice and words of encouragement for anyone in a similar situation - especially anyone who is single but wants to be married.

Share your story using our online tool:

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Coming Up: Episode #012: Counseling: How It Works and Why It Helps | Dr. Julia Sadusky, PsyD

Thanks for listening! Our next episode features Dr. Julia Sadusky, PsyD. We breakdown how counseling works, why it is effective, and how to make the most of it.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Do you feel unaffected by your parents' divorce or do you know someone who feels or, or seems like they're unaffected by their parents'? Divorce? That's actually the story of today's guests. She prided herself on being unaffected by her parents' divorce. She thought it had no impact on her life for the longest time, and from the outside it looked like she had everything together.

Like she was fine and the divorce really didn't have any effect on her. Until all of her brokenness bubble to the surface. And one thing I've noticed in doing this work and producing this podcast is that our culture tells us that our parents' divorce shouldn't affect us. That as children, we are resilient and we'll be fine.

And we believe that. So often we think that everything is normal, that nothing is wrong, but almost every time that's simply not true. We are affected. It may just take us some time to realize how we're affected. We'll talk about that and more in today's show. Keep listening.

Welcome to the Restored podcast, helping you cope, heal, and grow after your parents' divorce or separation so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 11, and in the show you're gonna hear. How my guest, Jen, really thought her parents' divorce didn't have any effect on her, and how that all changed.

When she went to Honduras as a medical missionary at age 26, her world just started falling apart. She started to feel very broken in. In her own words, she said she felt like something deep inside. Had been exposed and she couldn't hide it any longer. She just couldn't keep it together, and that was really the beginning of her healing journey, even though she didn't connect it to her parents' breakup.

And she was shocked to realize that the struggles in her life were very connected to her parents' divorce. She also shares how she's coped by being a perfectionist for a lot of her life and how she's tempted to find her value in external things. She also talks about how her parents' divorce has really affected her dating relationships and how.

It is a struggle being single. As someone in their thirties, she also shares some tips on healing and really one of the hardest, yet most beautiful things that she's done to heal. A little bit about our guests. Jennifer Cox is most proud to be called a friend, daughter. Godmother, aunt and nurse. She loves to spend time with her family, travel to all the places and practice Keo, uh, when she hasn't injured herself.

Kempo is a, is a martial arts, I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. Her nursing career has offered her some really beautiful opportunities over the years from working at the bedside at one of the top pediatric facilities in the country to being a school nurse serving in Honduras. She is currently the nursing director for a small nonprofit serving children with special needs just outside Washington dc.

Jen is actually a contributor to the book, Primal Loss, The Now Adult Children of Divorce Speak. You heard about that in episode two with Layla Miller, and she serves on the retreat team for the DC based recovering Origins retreats, and you heard about that in episode nine with Dr. Daniel Meola. She really has a heart to sit with others in their pain and to encourage them in their healing, which is exactly what she does in this conversation.

So here's my conversation with Jen. Let's dive right into your story. Take us to the day that your parents separated. How old were you? What happened? How did you react? Let's see. So I was in second grade. I was about seven or eight ish. And I mean, I was like living life. I, my, it was just me and my parents, so it was good.

Um, I just happened to be outside playing with my. Friends and our, um, I just, I remember this like so clearly, like it happened yesterday playing outside in the cul-de-sac and all of my friends were there. My parents had called me over to the front porch or the front door, and my mom, I just remember my mom was like visibly upset.

She, she's crying. My dad was standing next to her and they. Told me that they were getting divorced. And I remember, you know, looking at them, I, I, I just really didn't know, I didn't fully understand what that meant. They were just told me that, and I basically was just like, Okay, well can I go back and play with my friends now?

And I mean, I literally like that they told me and I just went back and played my friends and I was like, Um, hey everybody. We're getting a divorce. We're getting a divorce. Mm-hmm. , because I didn't know what it meant. And like looking back, it's a very touching, slightly comical. Oh, really? Just, it's just sad.

It just makes me sad that like, you know, that that happened. Um, yeah, so I, I didn't really know. I had no concept really at that time of my life, like what that meant. Yeah. So that's really like when I found out, I remember. It's funny as I've grown up and I've really like hashed all these things out, my memories are really limited from.

Prior to that, so I don't really remember, and like around that time I don't really remember, which I suppose makes sense in terms of, you know, trauma and all of that type of stuff, which is typical for traumas. But it is just fascinating that I, I don't really remember a ton of detail about time prior or really around that particular period of time.

So eventually, I would imagine so my parents must have like sat me down and maybe tried to explain a little bit more. Um, I lived in Maryland at the time and um, the separation is much longer in Maryland. And so my dad essentially lived with us, um, for quite some time, but he lived in a different, Or he stayed in like the guest bedroom.

Mm-hmm. . So for all I knew at that time, I don't know, that's what divorce was like. Okay. I mean, Sure. Um, and then eventually my dad moved out and, uh, my mom and I moved up the street to a, uh, townhouse. And that is just kind of where life really began. Like, I like to say I had one of those quote unquote good divorces because, Fairly straightforward.

I mean, for all of this, as much as blessing in many ways, like there was straightforward custody arrangements. I saw my dad very regularly, um, every other weekend, um, every other holiday. He was very involved in my life growing up. He would come to my. Swim meets. He would come to events, he would be around, like, it was very like, good.

It was good and normal and like all of these things. And, and I, yeah, and I, I mean, honestly, I just, it was great. I grew up, I literally grew up believing that things were good. And fine, because in my mind they were, I mean, they were fine. So I really didn't, I mean, there were moments I had probably throughout like high school that it was challenging.

I remember when I, I would have hard times with my dad and my mom was always very encouraging to like, have conversations with my dad. So like things didn't necessarily linger and whatnot. Like it was all very, like they did their best to make things. I don't know. Seamless or easier or something. Yeah. But yeah, so that's kind of really how I grew up.

I, I didn't, it was very kind of matter of fact and that's how life was and I, I just did what I had to do. I, I mean, yeah, that's, that's kind of, that's kind of it so often. When our parents split, you know, obviously it's a shock, especially when you realize the gravity of it. Mm-hmm. , but so often we kind of just see it as normal and we don't really think twice about it, and it becomes our new normal.

Then years later, usually it's like, wait a minute, this actually isn't normal. This isn't. Right. Yeah. This isn't the way things are supposed to be and so yeah, it can, it can bubble to the surface. But How old were you when, uh, you guys moved into the town home? Do you remember? I mean, it had to have been within the like year that they had like, let me know they were getting divorced because I Okay, makes sense.

Cause I was still. It was still within that year. I, I don't know, timing is a little off, so, or you know, was always fuzzy Sure. When you're looking back. So, yeah, so it was still around that time. It wasn't like years and years later or anything. It was very short. Um, so essentially I, the house that I grew up in with my mom, It was like the house that I grew up in.

Like I very, I don't really super remember my, you know, home with both my parents and it, it was, it was interesting. Um, it's just funny, It's funny to like think back on it and how normal it did feel. Mm-hmm. . Um, and I think that really it does play into a lot, um, of my difficulties and struggles later on.

Um, and we definitely get into that, but, Yeah, so essentially I had a, I lived a good life and I have a good life. Um, and I grew up my entire life believing that, you know, I went to college or I, I did well in school growing up. Like I was, you know, definitely one of the kids that, um, got good grades, didn't get in trouble.

Um, those types of things. We can come back to that in a little bit, but, you know, I just, I did what I had to do, like I. I was a, I was a good kid, you know. Yeah. Um, went to college. Graduated college. I, uh, graduated with my nursing degree. So I found a, a really great job at one of the top pediatric facilities in the area.

I did that for a while. I served in Honduras. I lived in Honduras. Um, I. Went to, like I lived in Florida, um, and did some other things, you know, and came back to this area for my job. I bought a home, I bought a condo, you know, like so from the outside. Very much like my parents' divorce. Had no bearing on my life.

Had no effect. On my life. And I was very proud of myself because of that, that yes, like I'm one of those people that my divorce or my parents' divorce didn't affect me. And I believed that. And I was very like, proud of that, you know? And that was kind of the, the narrative that I. Taught to believe anyway because mm-hmm.

right? Because as we know, like kids are resilient and all of these things and whatnot. And I just, I was very like, proud that, see proof that I, everything's good. Look at my life, like all these wonderful things and, and it is good. And I did do some wonderful things, but interestingly, uh, when I was in Honduras, um, that actually really opened up a lot for me.

I describe it as a stripping away of. Everything. And obviously like, um, mission work, especially overseas mission work does do that in many aspects. Um, but I realized at the time, you know, being in a different culture, being in a place I didn't know anybody and, you know, learning something completely new and all of these different things.

I didn't have my normal, I didn't have my sense of normal, you know, my family wasn't around my, you know, my normal like sense of comfort. It really kind of exposed. Something deeper inside of me that I, at this point now had nothing to keep it together. And at the time, now, I can only verbalize this with many years of therapy because at the time I, I really just thought that I was struggling with being a missionary and being in Honduras.

Like I just really thought, I was like one of those people, like, Gosh, maybe this isn't the life for me . Like I can't really cut it out and, and all of this. In retrospect and in hindsight and after much healing, I realized like that was the beginning of like, this wound that I had that was, was essentially like ripped, like open and exposed, and it just, uh, like I needed to, like, I couldn't do anything about it.

It was there. And so I was in a really difficult place, like, and it was a really dark place and I knew that I had to leave, but I couldn't really verbalize it. So I actually ended up leaving. Honduras early and was like, I just need to figure it out. I didn't know what I, I didn't know what I was figuring out, but I knew I needed to figure something out.

Cause clearly I was, I was really, really struggling. So, so I came home and I kind of had a significant transition. I stayed with my brother who, as a side note, we have the same dad, different moms. He grew up with his mom out in Kansas. So, um, while I technically grew up as. Only child. He, um, we, I did have a brother, but we just, we didn't grow up together, um, geographically and all that, so that makes sense.

Um, but we're fairly close. So when I came back from Honduras, bless him, he and his, um, wife and growing family, um, like welcomed me in to kind of transition me and that was a great time. Um, and then I moved to Florida and my best friend and her husband were having their first baby. So I kind. Stayed there and through that and, and kind of being around their beautiful like marriage and witnessing their, you know, their love for one another within their marriage and like bringing this baby into the world and all these wonderful, beautiful things.

Mm-hmm. , I, you know, I really like, I kind of put everything that I was feeling aside cuz I was feeling okay. I was very distracted at this point. Like, I was like, oh. Guess is good, but like I knew that I still needed something and I was still really very much struggling. So I was there for a year and I believe eventually was still very in a dark place.

And really it was probably still one of the lowest like periods of time in my life. And I was like, I need help. I need help, I need, I need help and I need to reach out to, um, a therapist. And so I did. And that has been one of the hardest and beautiful things that I. Done in my life thus far. Yeah, no, it, it takes so much courage to do that and get to that point where, you know, not just thinking about it, not just like researching it, but actually pulling the trigger and going in there, committing to stick with the therapy.

And then, you know, of course eventually you'll see the results, but man, that is, it's like busting through a wall. It's hard. Yes. How old were you when you went to Honduras? I turned. 27 when I was there. Okay. So I was in my mid twenties, uh, when all of this kind of really like started. So yeah, it is fascinating to kind of, um, objectively look back and to realize that like I held it together, quote unquote, you know, all of this, this wound and this stuff for.

20 over 20 years of my life, you know? Yeah. Um, at that, at that point. Um, and even then though I didn't have a clue though that it was related to anything related to my parents' divorce. It's interesting to look back and how much you just kind of assume is other things or whatnot, until you really take the time to, to step into that wound to find the root, and sometimes the root is not really what you.

Expected it to be. Yeah, I wanted talk about that a second, because I think this is common for, for many children of divorce, we may be struggling with something in life, whether it's, you know, a struggle with advice like alcoholism or pornography or something like that. Or you know, something else, something maybe not as as serious.

But we don't connect the dots, We don't see, we, we make this kind of attribution error, meaning, you know, we're so thinking at the root of. Stuff is something else when it's actually the brokenness in our family. And so your story just tells that perfectly. But I think so many of us can relate to that. We don't, we don't connect the dots.

Yeah, totally. Especially for in situations like ours, in terms of our parents' divorce. because the culture in which we live and the narrative that we are told to believe is that divorce isn't going to affect you as the kid. Of course not. Because if your family is there and loving you and being present to you, like what more do you need?

Essentially, you know? Mm-hmm. like your parents, you know, are there. You know, and they are, and I, I do wanna say that like my, my parents did do the best they can. I think that's, but that's also part of the thing. It's like, yes, they did the best can, but also I still was wounded. That's it's did the best Also, I was still affected.

So let's talk about that. Like I'm allowed to like process that and whatnot. And I think that's just something that we're not always willing. Talk about like the choice that this person made over here does have effects on. Like these people over here. And I think that is just part of the conversation that's missing a lot, unfortunately, uh, when divorce is brought up, is like, this is a decision that adults are making and it will affect their subsequent children if they have children.

You know, it's just, yeah. It's just part of the deal. And I, I think it's just unfortunate that, And so when you, when you don't have that conversation when no one's really kind of putting that in light or. Reminding parents when they are thinking about divorce, like then of course, like the children aren't necessarily going to have the, any dots to connect in that way.

That like, Oh, that that could have been a thing for me. I had no idea. Yeah. , it's been buried so deep they just don't even think about it. Yeah, no, I, I see that left and right and I love what you said, you know, divorce, it, it, it's traumatic basically that in so many words, that's what, that's what you just said.

Mm-hmm. , And I've never really heard people outside of, like, our circles of course talk about the trauma of divorce. It's like, that's a phrase I wish people would use because it is traumatic. It does really affect everyone involved, including the parents, but especially the children. And yeah, like you said, we're not, we're not hearing a lot about that, so I'm so glad that we're having this conversation.

So you touched on a lot of the ways in which you were affected, and the interesting thing to me was that from the outside looking in, if someone looked at you in your life, they would say, Oh, you. Jen, you're successful. You know, you've accomplished so much. You, you're doing good things with your life. Like, how can you be broken?

I mean, it's, it's almost like looking at you, some people compared to maybe people who kinda wear the brokenness on their sleeve, like on the outside, right? They may have looked at you and said, Oh gosh, you, you, you're totally fine. You have nothing to worry about. But inside something was very different.

And so when you went to Hondura, That just, you're outta your comfort zone. You're out of your routine, you're in, you know, you're being stretched in different ways. That stuff's just fall to the surface. So, uh, I wanna get into that a little bit deeper, but mm-hmm. . Um, but before we get to that point, were there any other ways in which your.

Parents breakup affect you in the years leading up to that, and then of course after that as well. Yes. I'm, I mean, like objectively yes. Like it did their divorce totally like affected me, but I feel like because it was so normal for me, I just didn't know any different, you know, like I didn't know, like, like I know for example, holidays are always like challenging, Right.

You know? And it's what sucks to not. Both my parents and all my, like one side of the family were visiting, Oh, this year we're gonna go to my mom's side of the family, all of us together, or we're all gonna be with my dad's side of the family, or something like that. Like growing up and realizing that like I was me who had to go with one or the other, you know, whatever holiday it was like, of course, like I remember like feeling, gosh.

Stinks, but I just, I didn't really have time to think about it. I just moved on There wasn't really a, a thing, so it's just hard to kind of like look back and like, I mean like now I can see it, but like, then when I'm like living it, when I'm in middle school and high school, living my life, unfortunately, it was just very normal

Mm-hmm. . And it it like, you know, and right now just thinking about it and like thinking back on it, it just, it does kinda make me sad a little bit that, that. Was so normal when really, I mean, it's not, and it shouldn't be. That's not how it, how it's meant to be. And it's just, it, you know, it does make me sad a little bit that I, you know, that was like my perspective, but I just, you know, part of me is like, I'm grateful for that because I feel like in some ways it would have, if I was so focused on the fact that my parents were divorced, I'm not sure I would've have held me back a little bit more.

Would it have like defined me in other ways? I mean, it's already. In ways that I'm learning, learn, have learned, and still learning how deeply it has affected me. But yeah, it is interesting to, to kind of, to look back and recognize like, but I, I don't know. That's the problem. Like I wouldn't have been able to, like if you came up to me when I was in high school, for example, to tell me, Hey, I'm so sorry that your parents are divorced, and I'm sorry that you had to, that you have to like go every other weekend to your dad's.

Honestly, I probably would've maybe just looked at you like, Okay, I mean, thanks like mm-hmm. . You know, and I, I would like to think like, Wow, that really would've spoken to my heart or something in some way. I don't know. And who knows? No one ever said that to me, so I wouldn't, I don't know how I actually would've reacted, but, but I think just because it was so normal for me, and I think there's just so many young people out there.

Today still that that is still very much normal and it's like, I, I'm, I want to like give them a hug, all of them and be like, I get it. Like it, it doesn't have to be, it's not normal and it's okay if you have some feels about it, it really is. Okay. , Yeah, we talk, we talk about that on this show from time to time about, you know how a lot of this stuff doesn't bubble to the surface, so you're, you know, may at the earliest you.

Mid teenager, late teens, really in your twenties. It seems to be the trend that people start connecting the dots and realize, hey, oh, okay, this, uh, you know, this isn't normal and this is actually affecting me more than I ever thought it would. So, so your story, you know, it makes so much sense. And one of the things, uh, just reading through your story, cuz you've written, you know, some beautiful blog articles.

About your story, one of the things that stuck out to me was how you, you know, you, uh, in some ways would take care of your parents, and it's almost like the roles reversed. And so that, uh, that stuck out to me if you would, you know, talk about that briefly. How, and, and again, that's again, that's something that's kind of normalized.

You don't maybe think twice about it as a kid, but, you know, comparing that to a really healthy fa like intact family. That's not normal. Yeah, for sure. And I think that it is like something that you just kind of take on. So, and one of the things that I, you know, really dove into part of my like, um, therapy was to realize that I took on the responsibility of, in ensuring that my parents, specifically my mom, cuz I.

Lived with her primarily were okay. I wanted my mom to be okay. And that was, that was it. Mm-hmm. . And so really, like growing up, I, I didn't like kind of coming back a little bit when I was, I had mentioned before about never, um, getting in trouble or never, you know, or always getting good grades and like doing well or whatever.

I didn't wanna rock the boat essentially. Mm-hmm. , I didn't. I just, I didn't like, I wanna ensure that everything was kind of level, even playing field. I mean, there was very few times where, um, I did like get grounded or something happened. I think I got detention one time ever in all of my schooling when I was in, you know, growing up.

And, um, like I, you know, I was very concerned about getting good grades and, um, I had to do them. And, you know, actually interestingly, my mom recently was reminding me of this time when I, when I was young, We were in the townhouse, so it was after my parents divorced, but I was very upset because I didn.

Finish my spelling homework or something. When I was in elementary school and I didn't finish my spelling homework and I was very upset. I don't remember this. This was just her sharing this with me and she just had, She was just like, Okay, Jen, Like I was just so, like I was visibly upset that I didn't finish this homework and that I.

Like, I was gonna stay up super late to finish it and my teacher was gonna be upset and all these things, and she just had to, you know, call me down and be like, Okay, I'll write a note that says didn't get finish. Like, it will be okay, you know, whatever. She called me down and, and I just think it's, it's just interesting, like how, I think that's a very, like a good example of how I essentially like, Needed to make sure I did all of the work and all the things and make sure I got it all done.

That, like, carried on with me throughout my schooling and all of that. Um, but essentially just so that I, Cause I didn't wanna make anybody else worried. I didn't wanna have to have worry. Anybody else? Everyone else. I like my mom, My dad, they had, well really for my mom, She already went through a lot, and I didn't wanna make her any more upset or have to affect her in any way.

I didn't wanna upset my dad, of course, because ultimately my dad's the one who left, and so mm-hmm. . If he left, he stopped loving my mom, and I then made him upset or something. Well, obviously he could stop loving me, you know? Mm-hmm. . And so, I mean, that's like the, the truth that I believed up. I was, uh, late in my late twenties.

So . Yeah. You know, but underline, right? Like, it's not like I knew that up until like, I just, but that is how I live my life essentially. Yeah. So you almost felt like you, the love was conditional and you needed to really keep your act together. Otherwise, what happened to your mom would happen to, you, could happen to.

Yeah, no, that, that makes so much sense. And if, if you're open to talking about it a little bit, I wanna dig into kind of the perfectionism. It seems that in some ways you coped with all of this as kind of being a perfectionist, like being really behaving really well, getting your grades, doing all your homework, like everything that you just laid out.

Would you say that's kind of the primary way that you coped over the years? Yes. It's funny cuz I kind of think about this like concept of coping and I didn't know that I was coping, you know, because I didn't know that. Needed to cope. I didn't know that there was anything wrong, but yes, I mean, I think so.

I think that I probably, I wanted things to be right and good, and if they were not right and good, then somehow I failed and it was going to be terrible or that I was wrong and like it was gonna make. My mom upset or make my dad upset and all of these things, and it really, Dr. It drove my, my ability to, that's like just how I lived my life, you know?

Mm-hmm. , because I, I, If I didn't do all these things, then somehow then I failed and I think. I internalized that and I believed the lie that then, because I couldn't do all these things, like if I failed, if I wasn't good enough, if I wasn't all the stuff, then it, that was me. Then like, it became about who I was at the core and therefore I wasn't good enough and I wasn't, then I was a failure and I wasn't strong enough and all of that.

And so of course that just, you know, plays into. Self confidence and thinking that you can do things and all of that. So, yeah, and it, it drives so many of us really, really hard. And I think that's why you see a lot of children of divorce who are pretty successful, you know, in terms of career and things like that.

And from the outside, you know, it may seem like we have all, everything in order, we have our life together. Um, but once you kind of dig. Deep and often into our relationships, you start to see that, uh, there's actually brokenness here, but, but yeah, I, my story, you know, I was 11 when my parents operated and my immediate reaction was really bad.

I, I got into things like pornography and, uh, other, other really unhealthy ways of coping and. Then clean that up, thankfully. Mm-hmm. , that was really good. But then I went, kinda went to the opposite extreme. I started to be a perfectionist and really wanted life to. Look kind of perfect on the outside, but I still felt broken inside.

I didn't know really what to do with that. And, and a lot of this, like you're saying, I wouldn't have been able to put into, uh, into words as well as I can now, but I certainly went to that opposite extreme of being a perfectionist of perfectionism. And uh, then later it kind of came out because I was like, Ah, I can't keep up this facade.

It's just, I feel too broken. and uh, yeah. But, but I do think this is so common for, for children of divorce dealing with perfectionism. And certainly not everyone does, but a lot of us do. And I've seen this, uh, you know, in working with children of divorce and just talking to, to people like us, it is definitely common.

I think another aspect of that too, for me, like it co goes into from like, Perfection. Like I have to have this all right and good, and it has to be like right and good, so I don't fail at it. Well, it really led into me or led me to really kind of find my worth in external things. So like if for example, work was not going well, then somehow my entire.

Was not good. And then because I wasn't being able to make it go well, like whatever struggle I was having at work, like it really impacted me as a person and how I viewed myself. And that's a very, you know, not great and dangerous place to be because if you're so focused on the external things going well, , and that is where you're putting your soul , um, like value in who you are as a person.

As soon as something goes wrong, like whoop, then you're, then you feel. That much more broken and yeah, so I've had to really work hard, really, really work hard to kind of separate those things and recognize that who I am is very much not related to all the things that are Yeah, that that will. Change and, and be different, um, at some point in time.

So, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you hit the nail, the head. I think so many of us deal with that too, just that external looking for value and external things like work or maybe relationships or something else. Wanna one kind of scary thought, but, but a good one to wrestle with. And I encourage everyone listening to think about this too, if all that stuff was stripped away from you.

You know, if your job was stripped away from you, if your relationships are stripped away from you, if your even your health was stripped away from you, what's left? Like, where do you find your value? You know, where do you feel important? And, and I'm not saying that it's bad to do well at work or to have good relationships.

Of course it's not, it's a good thing. But I've had to kind of wrestle with that too over the years because yeah, I have found so much of my worth. And what I do instead of really who I am at at the core. And one of the things that has come up in conversation with children of divorce is that often we are so driven to succeed because we're terrified of failure.

And the reason we're terrified of failure is we feel that if we fail, nobody will have our back. And we are kind of on our own in life to figure it out. And so that has really shaped and driven so many of us, which is really sad. It really is. Turning to coping. So you're in your twenties, you go to Honduras.

And do, do this great mission work and then all the stuff bubbles to the surface. How did you react? How did you cope with that? And talk about if you would, the healthy ways that you coped with it, and then if you're willing, some of the unhealthy ways, if, if those were present. So once I, Once I, Okay. So I mean, I think the biggest thing, like once I realized like all this stuff was like happening, um, I knew that I needed to do something.

So the one thing that I did was I left Honduras, I left the thing that I thought was the problem and that of. In retrospect, it wasn't that thing was the problem. And so I had mentioned before it took me a while to get to the point where I like could call and like reach out to a therapist. So in the meantime, honestly, I just kind of, I think I avoided it.

I mean, I. I knew I needed to deal with it, but I was like, Oh, maybe it'll be fine. I it'll, you know, cuz like, I had a lot of things that were distracting me up until that point. And so I really started diving in with my therapist. Bless him. Whew. I was shocked, honestly, and, and a little bit angry to realize.

So much of my current struggles and so much of the things that I, I was dealing with all somehow related back to my parents' divorce, and I think that really began this like huge, like wrestling for me because now I was face to face with this entire life that I have been living so proud that I didn't have.

any effects, right? Like, I was good. I got all these things, I was living my life and blah, blah, blah. And now I'm realizing and I can see the dots, like I can see the lines connecting these dots like, Huh, wow, this has affected me. Mm-hmm , it did affect me. It is affecting me, and I'm not actually quote unquote fine

And that just, Broke me. Like that really broke me in ways that I was really wasn't expecting. And I was dealing with a lot of anger and I dealt with a lot, like, of subsequent shame, a lot of shame still that I kind of have to wrestle with today. Um, quite honestly, But shame and the fact that like somehow I couldn't deal with it or I, I was not strong enough to handle my parents' divorce.

It did affect me and. I, Yeah, I was, I just dealt with a lot of shame because I just believed, you know, for so long that I was fine and that I, that I was okay. And I was just like, it was just something that I, you know, I had to, you know, it wasn't a thing that I had to deal with. And so, To now dive into this whole thing and to see it face to face, like, wow.

Okay. And I recognizing then like all of the ways that I was, in terms of like unhealthy ways probably would be like, you know, self-protection. Like, you know, I didn't, I'm not like a huge risk taker by any means. I don't, you know, cause clearly, Opens up a whole lot of things and no one wants to rock the boat in that way, and I don't wanna have to fail.

I gotta, if I don't know, I'm gonna be perfect at it, then don't wanna try it, you know? So I protected myself in those ways. Just avoided the pain. I avoided trying to deal with it for so long and all of that. So those are the biggest things. But honestly, what has helped me the most is my therapist for sure.

Journaling has been. A godsend, like I've always been a journaler. Um, but being able to write out my thoughts and write out my, my pain and my confusion and my just, all of that has been really helpful. Prayer has been, um, a beautiful thing for me, of course, but therapy has been like, like that's been the biggest thing.

of course. And I think I just as a side. On therapy. I still see my therapist regularly and I think that I've just recently kind of come to the terms with it, that that is also okay. Mm-hmm. , that I still am speaking to my therapist because again, I think I've been carrying around this like I this shame that like, wow, this thing is like still affecting me.

It doesn't necessarily though mean that my life is bad or that my life is like somehow less than. Because I'm dealing with these struggles. It's just that I'm dealing with these struggles and I'm trying to be proactive about it, and I'm trying to live my life the best way that it can. And sometimes you need a little extra help.

And that is okay. That's even courageous in, in my opinion, because you're acknowledging I can't do this alone. I can't, you know, I don't have the ability to, to deal with this all on my own. I, I need help And, and to someone who you know for so long in your life. Done things on your own, who's figured things out, who's excelled in so many areas.

Yeah, that's super humbling. Thank you. I'm not sure I would've put it in those words, but I appreciate you saying that . No, absolutely. And I, uh, I think so many of us, when, when you're talking about the shame, so many of us need to hear that it's not, it's okay not to be okay. It really is. Mm-hmm. , and again, like your story says, so.

When we put up that facade, that mask, or, and even, you know, believe ourselves for the longest time that everything's fine, We're fine, everything's good, we're okay. Um, once it comes to that point where it, it comes to the surface, it is, it's super humbling. And, and like you said, shameful and it's just like, I don't have control of this.

This is not something that I want to be dealing with. But, uh, but yeah, I think all of us need to hear that it's okay not to be, And it's okay to ask for help. In fact, you really can't heal on your own. It's true. It's just impossible because you're only gonna be stuck in your own head. Um, I think that's what's beautiful about Restored is like being able to at least write it out or have the ability to write it out.

That's like a beautiful first step, but that's only one step because you're only gonna, your words are only gonna be stuck in your own head, and you need to figure out the best way. To deal with those things and to cope appropriately. I think that's one of the things that was, that I'm realizing as well, you know, or that I have realized over the last few years is that I, I was never taught the appropriate ways to cope with things that were difficult.

Right. Or that, or really do deep wounds, uh, because. Again, because we, no one really knew that divorce is going to affect me as the way it did, you know? Mm-hmm. . And so I was never given the appropriate tool. So essentially what therapy has been for me is like a constant reminder of how to unlearn all of these terrible habits that I've built and like unlearn, unie, all of these lies that I have believed for many years about myself.

And so, so I myself am. Learning how to, to do all of these things in healthy, appropriate, good life giving ways. And that's, it's hard, it's hard to do. It's, it is very, it is humbling too to, to, to do that. So, Absolutely. Uh, that, that makes so much sense. And you mentioned some of the ways that you've, some of the things you've done to heal.

Was there anything else to add to that? Like any, anything that you've done? Any technique, any, You mentioned prayer, you mentioned journally, you mentioned counseling. Um, and those are, Amazing. We definitely encourage people to, to do all those things. Was there anything else? You know, I had a couple close friends that were able to kind of listen, to listen and just like sit with me and my pain and I, and really like, wanted to hear, um, they were, they wanted to hear what my perspective and what I was going on and that was really beautiful and it really just gave me like hope, like wow.

Okay. My words matter, my experience matters. The, I am a contributor to the Primal Loss book. I know that you had Layla, um, on a few podcasts to go and, um, I was one of the, uh, contributors to her book, and I, we the like authors or the contributors to the book, um, have a private Facebook group and that has been really beautiful and healing, um, to just be part.

All of us together, um, having this common shared experience, um, to be able to kind of live life and lean on one another and pray for one another and just to, to see how we've done this and how did you do that and how do you guys handle this and things like that. That's been a really beautiful part of my, like, own healing.

And one other thing actually that's sometimes is as I feel is pretty rare, but I had a really beautiful gift to be able to share a lot of this with my mom. One of the things that we as. Children of divorced are terrified about is that our parents are gonna know how we actually feel, how we really feel about this situation.

Right? It goes back to like not wanting to rock the boat. We don't want to tell them because then they're gonna, you know, We don't know exactly. We just don't want them to know because it will, it could upset them. We don't want that. Right. And we just don't feel safe to, with our parents to share. And they're, you know, in years into my, like, healing, you know, So it's been a couple years now, but, um, just really randomly, I just was able to kind of share.

Kind of matter of factly my experience. And my mom was so gracious and really listened and heard me, and it was a beautiful, beautiful gift. And honestly, I don't think I realized at the time how. Impactful. That was in my own healing to be heard by one of my parents. You know, I've tried to, you know, share some of this with my dad.

It's just different. Of course, I love both of my parents and my parents. Clearly they love me. Um, but it's hard to share these things with them, especially even if as adults, , you want to share some of this stuff, and as an, and an independent adult. But I, I do wanna kind of give hope that, like for anyone listening or young people or whomever that.

If you have. Challenging relationships with their parents. Like I get that and I see you, but there is also opportunities to be able to genuinely share your experience with, with them at some point. Um, like don't lose hope in that either. Cause that. Was a beautiful gift for me. That's beautiful. Yeah. And man, that can be so healing.

There's some research that was done about children of divorce and loneliness in particular. One of the things that they found is if you are able to develop, you know, of course if it's healthy, and usually it needs to happen gradually. If you're able to develop a relationship with your parent, one or both, both being ideal, um, it actually helps you to feel less depressed, less anxious, less alone.

And so, uh, that's definitely something that all of us can, you know, work toward even if we're not at that point yet. I didn't realize the, like, value that it was to be able to share that with my mom and, and whatnot. So yeah, it was definitely a gift and I, and I hope and pray that others will be able to.

To be able to have that as part of their healing journey as well. Now that you've gone through some of this healing process, and of course you said you're still going through it, which makes sense, this is something that we deal with for years and really it's just kind of an infinite goal. It's something we're always working on, but, uh, but I was curious how, how's your life different?

How have you seen your life change after giving this attention, going through the kind of grueling healing process? How, how's your life different? Yeah, I mean, I think that I'm just more aware of the thing of the areas that I am struggling with, and I'm like doing my best to enter into those, um, parts, to, to heal them in ways and to live my life fully.

And, you know, I think that so much of, of, you know, living a life of trying to always put my best foot forward and, and having all of the things. You know, be perfect quote unquote and all of that. But also not really taking any risks, you know, has really like held me back in a lot of ways. I don't say that like I've not taken risks because when I objectively look back, I have taken risks.

Like, you know, not many people would go to Honduras to do mission work, so I like get that objectively. But you know, I think that overall, like just even though every day or like choosing to do this thing versus that thing, like, you know, I'm always going on the side of what's more comfortable and I think that's really.

You know, held me back, you know, in, in a lot of ways and I'm, you know, hopeful and, and I think that it has definitely been a light for me to see that. And so that I can like, move forward and make, you know, better, more full, you know, full decisions that like will allow me to live like a more, a full like life of.

That I'm thriving in or whatnot. It's, yeah, it's a beautiful thing to be able to take risks and know that if you fail, it's okay. It really is. And uh, I think so many of us fear that, but, but it's beautiful. We've gone to that point. As you, as you know, usually the biggest effect on us is in our relationships.

And so I wanna talk about that a little bit. How have you seen. Parents divorce affect your relationships, everything from your friendships to dating relationships. I definitely value like some deep friendships. Um, those are harder to find and like, like get to because it takes more vulnerability and whatnot and um, you know, time and all that to get there.

Yeah. But I feel like I've definitely had some like beautiful friendships in there, but it's also hard to like try. Be full yourself, um, and feel, um, safe to do that. And I think that that is a challenge, you know, kind of goes back to like, you know, Can I risk this? Can I risk putting myself out there? You know, whether that's with just good friends or with, you know, somebody you're interested in romantically.

So yeah, I, it has, you know, from like the dating perspective, I'm single. So it definitely in that romantic relationship department has definitely affected me more, I would say for. Probably assume obvious reasons. Um, I, you know, have a huge fear of getting hurt and, you know, similar things happening to me that happen to my parents, and of course I don't want that.

And so, I mean, there are many reasons. Like I have a, I have a huge desire to be married and have a family and all of these things. And there's many factors that play into how, why dating is extremely difficult. Today. Um, but it, uh, you know, it adds to it when you're already kind of, you know, you have a lot of like, worry and fear, I guess to like enter in and to be vulnerable in this, like this way because, you know, we all have a desire to be fully seen and known and you know, and we want.

We want that in our, in the person that we're like clearly going to end up with for in, in a marriage. And so to do that just takes some risk and, and whatnot. And I, it's been, it's been challenging for me. I and my, the last, uh, dating relationship that I had definitely brought out a lot of, um, things that I needed to work on in terms of my own continued healing and, um, realizing how.

Still self protecting. I was being in terms of my like, you know, being, oh, I don't know, like open and, and whatnot. So, yeah. Yeah, I think it's definitely a challenge. And so in the, uh, private, online, um, group for the pri loss book, I, um, a lot of those. People are married. And so I feel sometimes, not all of them, but many of them are.

And so it feels like everyone's talking about their families and family life and all these things and, and their marriage struggles and just supporting each other in that and all of that. And I'm just like, Oh, but what is not turn, you know? And it's hard to, um, to kind of be there and, and to kind of enter in.

And I'm going to be 35 at the end, actually next week I'll be 35. And so, um, you know, I am not a young chicken anymore. And so it's challenging to, to kind of, to be that and to not like, think like, gosh, like is it because of my wounds that I'm still like single and I'm still like waiting and doing all these things and just kind of like, is that really part of the deal?

And, you know, it's just, it's, it's the reality that I'm in. Um, It's not bad, but it is just one of those things that just kind of is a lingering, ongoing effect. And I can't help but think that the fears or the, the concerns I had and the self protection that I had, you know, throughout my life, you know, has played into my inability to kind of like give myself more and to find the right person.

But also that it's just how the cookie crumbles. And I, and I trust that this my life, you know, is good and God has a plan and all of those beautiful things. So I'm not super hung up on it, but it is, you know, it is a reality and um, I can't help but think that, you know, some of that is, it's just part of the.

The hurdles to go through. Yeah. Hey, thank you for being so vulnerable with this. I know, yeah. I heard, heard so many stories and friends who, you know, they have just such a desire to be married, but for one reason or another it's just not happening. And like you said, you know, there's a lot that complained it, but.

Oh yeah. I have no doubt that, uh, you know, our parents' divorce separation plays a huge role kind of in entering into relationships, learning to love and, and definitely approaching marriage. I know for me, I was just terrified of, of marriage of love, cuz like you said, so, Well, I didn't wanna repeat my parents' mistakes, you know, I didn't wanna.

Allow someone to hurt me the way that I felt hurt by their breakup. And so I really loved at arm's length and took a lot of courage even to date, to be honest with you. It was, it was a hard thing to, to work through and yeah, I'm still working through it today. I, I think so many people listening can relate to this and I'm so glad you, you brought it up and you were so vulnerable because yeah, I think it's gonna give a lot of people a lot of hope and just let them know that they're not alone.

Pretty kind of a open book in that area, you know? So , that's a good thing. I, um, yeah, I randomly actually, when I was, um, in Florida, Kind of had a significantly regular like blog series that I was doing online that was, um, kind of geared towards single women. And so I definitely have a heart for single women and obviously still being single.

It's just kind of a thing that we're, that I'm dealing with. So, Yes, I am all about talking about that part too. Yeah, no, thank you. And I actually, in closing out, I wanna give you a chance to talk about that a little bit. And so the question really is, you know, what words of encouragement would you give to someone who comes from a broken family who, you know, feels broken, feels stuck, but maybe they don't feel broken or they don't feel stuck, they haven't connected the dots.

Um, and if you would kind of add to that too, someone who really has seen. Their relationships not work out for one reason or another, but in part because their parents divorce is separation. What words of encouragement would you give to, to someone in that position? My biggest thing for anybody who is really, who has parents are divorced wherever you are, just know that I think I, I just wanna tell you that it doesn't have to be this way.

It wasn't meant to be this way. and wherever you are, whatever feelings you have about it, feel them. It's okay to feel them and you're not alone. And please look for. Somebody to talk about it, even if you're not even sure what your feelings are about it. Say you're similar to me and you didn't even know that you should be upset about, or you could be upset about it.

Just ask. Like it's okay to ask about it, um, to somebody. And I know you might not have family or your parents aren't the people that you can do that with, but I know that, um, you Joy Wolf kind of talk about the ways that Restored has for the opportunity to share, but. I just encourage anybody, wherever they're at, wherever, wherever you are in your, your journey in terms of understanding your parents' divorce, how it's affecting you, whether or not you think it is, just be open to that.

Ask about it. Dive into it, and just. Allow yourself to feel and you're not alone, and just reach out to somebody if you're really, really struggling, if you're really in a dark place, definitely therapy is the way to go. Um, and for all the, all of you who do have parents, um, that are divorced and you're a single, and it is something that is challenging to kind of deal with, I also want to remind you that you are not alone.

You were made for more and you are more than your relationship status. It is. Your life matters just as it is right now. No matter where you are, whatever you're doing, your life matters and it is good, and good things are going to happen for you. Thank you so much. If people wanna connect with you, what's the best way to do that?

I'm on Instagram, but it's like private, but you're more than welcome to send me a message on there. Jen underscore Cox rn. I like check there regularly. It's private, so you just have to send me a message. I also have a blog. I don't regularly do that, but I do. Um, it's there. It has some of my. Story has, if you're single, has a lot of things on there, resources for that.

Um, it, that is jumping in puddles blog.com. Awesome. Thank you so much. We'll put all that in the show notes for you guys so you don't need to remember it. But Jen, thank you so much for just being so vulnerable with us, for sharing your story and for, uh, the, the awesome advice that you gave to really, really appreciate you being here.

And I know. Everyone listening is better for it. So thank you. Thank you Joey, and your encouragement is beautiful and I really appreciate it. And I'm, um, honored again that you asked me to be on here, and I'm excited to see where Restored goes, So thank you. So many good takeaways. Just a few to highlight guys, always remember, there's no shame in struggling.

There's no shame in being affected by your parents' divorce. There's no shame in not having everything together. It's okay not to be okay, and it's okay to ask for help. You cannot heal alone, and it's not a weakness to need help to heal. It's actually courageous to seek healing and to really wanna make yourself a better, stronger person.

One of the things that Jen said that really stuck out to me too was that were never really taught how to cope with difficult things in life or deep wounds in healthy ways. I totally relate to that, and I've felt that for a long time in my life. In fact, that's part of the reason why I started restored.

We wanna change that. We wanna give you guys the tools and the practical advice that you need to learn how to cope in healthy ways, to actually heal, to make healing simple, and to continue growing. So that you guys can feel hold again. And one tool we're actually creating for you guys is the book. We're writing a book and more info on that later.

That will probably be coming out late in 2020. It's the first book that we're writing, so still learning the process, but that'll be out later and it's really gonna be a tool to help you either begin your healing journey or to continue. Your healing journey. Jen had mentioned that there's a way for you to share your story with Restored, and you could do that in three easy steps.

You go to restoredministry.com/story. Again, that's restored. Ministry. Ministry is just singular.com/story. You'll fill out a, a short form, take a little bit of time to do that, and then once you submit it, we'll actually turn it into an anonymous blog article. And like Jen said, it's really one of the steps to heal, to share your story, to get it out of your head, out of your chest, onto paper, onto a screen, to to share it with other people.

And so this is just a tool, a way for you. To easily do that in a safe and private way. All the resources mentioned, uh, in the show are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 11. That's the number 11. Again, that's restored ministry.com/eleven. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful, please subscribe and share this podcast with someone that you know who could really use.

Always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

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#010: 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness

Did you know that children of divorce are actually more prone to experience loneliness?

If you or someone you know struggles with loneliness, this episode is for you.

Did you know that children of divorce are actually more prone to experience loneliness?

If you or someone you know struggles with loneliness, this episode is for you. You'll hear 5 common sense tips that you can start today to overcome loneliness.

eBook: 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness

“Mom told my siblings and me that Dad would no longer live with us. In fact, they were getting divorced... Immediately, I froze. I went numb. The 11 year old Joey couldn’t handle that news.”
— 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness
 

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Coming Up: Episode #011: I Thought My Parents’ Divorce Didn’t Affect Me | Jennifer Cox

Thanks for listening! Our next episode features the story of Jennifer Cox.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Do you feel alone? Do you struggle with loneliness? If you do, ironically, you're not alone. People like us, people whose parents are separated or divorced, are actually more likely to feel lonely according to the research. And guys, I really feel for people who struggle with loneliness because I've been there, it's horrible.

Loneliness is truly one of the worst things you can experience, But there's hope. Today we're gonna give you five practical tips that you could use. You can start them today to cure loneliness. Keep listening.

Welcome to the Restored podcast, helping you. Heal and grow after your parents' divorce or separation so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 10, and before we get into the five tips, I wanna open up to you guys about my own struggle with loneliness.

It really started on the most painful day of my life, which was the day that my parents separated, and I'll never forget it. It was a warm spring day. I was 11 years old, and my mom sat me and my siblings down to break the news to us. She told me and my siblings that my dad would no longer be living with us.

In fact, they were getting a divorce. Immediately. Soon as I heard that news, I froze. I went. The 11 year old me couldn't handle that news. And up to that point, my dad was my hero. I looked up to him so much and I felt very safe in his presence. In fact, I wanted to be just like him as a young boy. I treasured the days that he would take me to work with him.

He was in construction, so we'd get up early, we'd get donuts and we'd go to the job site, and I love that. And like so many boys who, who look up to their dads, I loved covering my face and shaving cream and, uh, shaving it off with a comb just to be like my dad. And in short, I, I felt close to him. So when I found out he was leaving, when he was moving out, it shattered my world.

Like I said, the 11 year old me just didn't have the ability to cope with that news. And immediately I felt abandon. I felt unwanted and I felt like I wasn't good enough. And so all I could do was cry. And so I hid in the closet and I just cried. And as I sat there, a million thoughts raced through my head.

I worried about my parents and what would happen to them. I worried about my siblings and I worried about my myself. What would happen now? And even talking about it to this day, a sadness still shoots through my heart because it really was a traumatic and such a tragic day for my family. Following that day, I became very bitter, very angry.

Sad and fiercely independent. I didn't wanna rely on anyone, and I did all sorts of unhealthy things to cope with the pain that I was experiencing. Around that time. A friend of mine introduced me to pornography and so that became my drug of choice. And even at a young age, I knew that I wanted to be happy.

And the pornography, even though it felt good in the moment, brought some relief. It offered an escape, some comfort, a. I just felt so empty, and so all of that really made me feel extremely lone. Eventually I found some really good friends and that helped a ton, but I still struggle with loneliness. In high school, it got worse.

I was athletic. I played sports. People seemed to like me, but I still struggle with loneliness. I would isolate myself and I don't totally know why, but part of the reason I did that I think, is because I felt, unlike everyone else, why did I feel unlike everyone else, because of my broken. Because of the bad choices I had made due to the pain that I experienced when my parents broke up, because I felt broken, and it seemed like nobody else was not in the way that I was, so nobody would understand me.

I guess I, I felt out of place like I didn't belong and so I just felt lonely and even though I had good friends, I was afraid to open up to them. I was afraid to tell them because, well, What would they think? So I silently swore not to be vulnerable. I never wanted to allow anyone the power to hurt me the way that my parents' breakup did.

And since my friends couldn't help, I looked around for some support, but I didn't find anything. Surprisingly, support for people like me, people whose parents are separated or divorced. Didn't exist, as I learned over the years, actually wasn't alone and feeling lonely. Loneliness is such a common struggle for so many people, but especially for children of divorce or separation.

And there are some really practical ways to fix it. But before we get into that, I wanna say a couple really important things. So, Listen up here. If you're a teenager or a young adult and your parents are separated or divorced, or maybe in the process of doing that, you're in the right place. In fact, I created a ReSTOR for you.

And if you're someone who loves or leads young people like that whose parents are separated or divorced, You're in the right place as well. We wanna help you guys. Help them. Now, if anyone listening is looking for an academic report by PhD psychologists, you're actually in the wrong place. I'm sorry to break the news to you.

I have nothing against academics. I have a master's degree myself, and I have a lot of friends who have PhDs. But I've learned in life we often complicate things that are actually pretty simple. And so the advice you're about to hear is simple because I believe that the simpler the advice, the more likely we are to actually implement it into our lives.

And so what you're about to hear really is just some common sense, practical advice on overcoming loneliness. It's based on my experience of wrestling with loneliness after my parents separated 15 years ago. It's based on the experience of others pulling lessons from their stories, and we have some research and expert advice.

That's referenced in this show where it's needed. So I'm not against that at all. But like I said, you don't need a master's degree to, to do this stuff or to listen to this podcast. We wanna really keep it simple. Now, all that being said, if your struggle with loneliness guys is extreme or paralyzing, even, go see a counselor and you could find a counselor if you go to our website at ReSTOR.

ministry.com/coaching. Again, that's restored ministry.com/coaching Ministry is a singular. Once you go to that website, the second step is just filling out a simple form. It'll take one to two minutes, and then from there we'll connect with you to show you options for counselors that you can connect with, counselors that we trust, that we approve.

Now, the reason I'm saying all this is because there are cases. Where loneliness is tied to some other serious psychological problem that really requires professional help. The advice that we're giving in this episode is no substitute for. Whether it's for those of us who struggle with loneliness, that is not due to a chemical I balance or a deeper psychological issue, because I believe that most loneliness is actually situational or even self-inflicted as opposed to loneliness caused by some serious or deep psychological issue.

So if you're in a really dark place with loneliness, Go see a counselor. And I know it's scary. It takes courage to do that. But take that first step. Go to the website, connect with the counselor, and one final thing before we dive into the content, the tips that we're about to give you. Are very practical and you can start them today, like I said at the top of the show, but do not do them all.

It'll overwhelm you, especially if these things are are new and you're trying them for the first time or you're not doing them in your life. In that case, really none of them will last, at least not for the long term instead, What I recommend is find one of them, find one of these tips that will help you the most, and then focus hard on implementing that into your life.

You're gonna see a lot more results by having a really narrow focus than trying to do everything at once. All right, let's dive in. The loneliness. It's a huge topic. It's a common struggle in our world. Yeah. Like I mentioned at the top of the show, and you saw my story, Children of. Are more prone to it.

And before we get into that, we really should ask the question, Well, what is loneliness? And as you can guess, loneliness is not just being alone. That's solitude. And solitude is healthy. We all need that. Everyone needs a alone time. But loneliness really is a lack of intimacy or belonging, right? You could be in a crowded room full of people and still feel lonely.

Broadly speaking, researchers define loneliness as the gap between the kind of relationships you desire. And the kind that you have. And another way to say it is the quality of your relationships doesn't live up to the hope you have for them. And there's two types of loneliness. There's social isolation and emotional isolation.

And the distinction's pretty, pretty simple. Social isolation is when you keep to yourself, you isolate yourself and you don't interact with other people. It's really a lack of relationships. Or maybe you have relationships, but you're not really spending time with your. And an example of this, of course, is someone who just locks themself up in their apartment, in their room or their dorm most of the time.

Emotional isolation is different. It's when you have those friendships and you see them frequently, but you don't feel close to those people, you don't feel understood. An example of this is a woman who has a husband and friends, but she feels like her relationships are lacking, that closeness, that intimacy, that she longs.

As children of divorce, there's a lot of reasons why we feel alone, but like you heard in my story, I think underneath it all, we feel like we don't belong. Even in our own families. Sometimes we feel broken. We feel unlike anyone else. We feel like nobody gets us. We're slow to trust and we tend to be very independent, so we don't wanna rely on anyone else.

We tend to be loaners, even though statistically we're not alone. Because as you've probably heard me say before, each year over 1 million American children suffer the divorce that their parents, but we still feel alone. Psychological research confirms that we are more likely to struggle with things like anxiety, loneliness, low self-esteem, and sadness.

Another study found that young people with divorced parents are more susceptible to loneliness than young people with non divorce parents. And I know guys hearing that can be really discouraging, but do not give up hope. There are some solutions. Some things you can do to fix loneliness, and that's what we're gonna dive in right now.

So how do you overcome loneliness? Well, the first thing is, of course there's no magic pill. There's no perfect solution. I wish there was. I wish I could tell you guys that wish I had that to offer, but there's not, unfortunately. But we do wanna offer five tips for these tips are human tips, and one of them as a spiritual tip.

The first tip is find meaning. In your life, find meaning in your life. Have you heard of Victor Frankel? Victor Frankel was an Austrian psychiatrist who was locked up in a concentration camp in World War ii, and during his imprisonment, he observed why some of the people in the concentration camp survived the Nazis starvation and torture and why others did not.

And in short, what he learned was that the people who had a. Reason to live were the people who survived. In other words, those who found meaning a reason to live that was much bigger than themselves, were able to endure even the hell of a concentration camp. And so the fact that these people could survive such misery says something.

And on the flip side, those who lost meaning were more likely to give up and even take their own lives or or die. So Victor Frankel wrote a book about all this, and the book is called Man's Search for Meaning, just a phenomen. Book and we'll, we'll put that in the show notes for you guys. But what he concluded again was that more than anything in the world, more than power, pleasure, money, fame, we long for meaning in our lives.

We want a deep reason to live that's bigger than ourselves, and we long for that, so much that we're willing to give up, pleasure or comfort, and even in dirt pain. If the reason is good enough, there's a million examples of this, but you can think of a mother who's carrying a baby maybe through really difficult and painful pregnancy, or giving birth through really painful labor or a soldier putting himself through some really rigorous training, some painful training work, maybe even torture without giving up, you know, secrets for his country because he loves his country so much, and the point is comfort, power, pleasure, Those things can only last so long, but meaning can last.

So how do you find meaning in your life? Uh, that's obviously a huge question, but one way to do that is to find your mission in life. Find the purpose for which you exist. That's easy, right? No, of course not. But really what I've learned is the search is half the battle. And so while you're on that journey of funding your meaning in life, and that goes beyond just your job.

Or what you wanna do with your life, but really why are you on this planet? What are you here for? What's the purpose of your life? You really owe it to yourself to think about those questions. And those are big, deep questions, but reflect on those questions. Think about that, and really figure out why you're here.

And in the meantime, while you're doing that, while you're discovering that. Get outside of yourself. Serve people who are struggling more than you are. Serve people who are lonelier than you are. Do that by helping out a food kitchen for homeless people or maybe reaching on to a friend of yours who is going through a rough time.

And the practical ideas for this tip is to simply grab a pen and paper, or you can just grab your phone and make three short lists. These don't need to be perfect perfectionist. I'm watching you, and they don't need to be big or complete. You can always go back and edit them later. So don't stress out about this, but make three different lists.

On the first list, ask yourself the question, What am I passionate about? When you do these things, time flies by and you feel energized just by doing that. Simple examples of this are exercising, cooking things you really. Are passionate about. For the next list, ask yourself the question, what skills do I have?

This is stuff that you're good at and you've able to learn these skills. Or maybe you're just naturally talented in these areas. Examples of this are playing music or sports or, or something else much simpler. And one thing about this, I've often been surprised to see how people think. They're not skilled at anything.

But then when you start talking to them and they start sharing about their experiences and different training they've had, Things that they can do, They actually know more about something or they're able to do something that most other people can't or maybe not in the exact way that they can do it.

And so that's what I'm talking about here. This doesn't mean that you're world class edit. Doesn't mean that you're gonna win a gold medal for whatever you're doing, but it's something that you're skilled at. And for the third list, the last list, ask yourself the question, what needs. In the world resonate with me.

And these, these are real needs that hit your hard and move, right? These are outside of yourself. They're not just things you're passionate about. You may be passionate about them, but these are real needs that people are experiencing in the world, and you just wanna help. Maybe these things make you angry or make you sad, and you really wish that things were different.

Examples of these are, of course, women in unplanned pregnancies. Maybe you just wanna help them or abuse victims. It looks different for different people. And one little tip, if you wanna apply this exercise for a job, if you wanna find a job that you'd love for that third list, instead of asking the question, you know, what needs in the world resonate with me?

You can just ask yourself the question, What can I do that's gonna make me some money? What can I do that will provide for myself, for my. And so the point of this exercise, of course, is not to help you get a job, but you can adapt it a little bit to find that. And really the intersection of your passions, your skills, and then the needs in the world could give you a clue.

I'm not gonna say it's final, but it could give you a clue about your purpose in life. And so this exercise has really helped me, so I hope it helps you guys too. Again, the three questions are, what am I passionate about? What skills do I have? And then what needs in the world resonate with me? So that's the first tip.

Find meaning in your life. Tip number two, build your relationships. And this, this goes back to my own story. Building authentic relationships has really helped me. Being known, being loved is really one of our most basic human needs. But instead of focusing on finding people to just love you, focus on loving others.

Make friendships a priority and not just focus on finding great friends, but focus on being a great friend. Build those quality friendships, not just a lot of surface friendships. I'm, my personality tends to just have closer, deeper, close friendships. But I know some personalities like having a lot of friends and there's nothing wrong with that, but make sure there's at least a few people who you could go deep with.

And I know this is a sensitive topic, but if it's healthy, And if it's safe for you, make relationships with your family a priority, especially your parents. This is something I'm still working on and, and the reason I mention this is because the research shows that the quality of your relationship with your parents impacts.

Your level of loneliness. In other words, a good relationship with one or both of your parents can actually decrease the loneliness that you feel and it actually strengthens your self esteem. Now, again, guys, only if that's healthy and safe for you and take your time as well, especially if you feel far from your parent.

It just needs to be gradual. And of course, you need good boundaries if there's been situations where boundaries have been broken. All right? Now back to your friends. When you're with them guys, put down your. Really challenge yourself to face the demands of friendships so that you can experience the joys too.

And remember, friends are actually good for you. Probably don't think of this when you're setting up a time to hang out with your friends or heading over to see 'em. But science actually says that greater social connection is associated with a 50% reduced risk of early death. So if you wanna extend your life, Hang out with your friends and if you're single, what I would say to you is work on building genuine friendships before starting any dating relationship.

And there's no reason to be perfect. I, I'm not saying that you have to be flawless before you enter into a dating relationship, cuz you probably never would, but just make sure you're healthy and whole before you. On that path of dating, seek healing for your brokenness and try to overcome the weaknesses you have, especially those serious weaknesses.

That's really the best gift that you can give to your future spouse, and it's gonna make your relationships so much better. And one last thing about friendships that really helped me. It became comfortable really gradually. To reflect on and share my story with my friends. And without becoming unhealthy, my friendships actually became healing.

I opened up to the right people, especially my guy friends. I found that it was really helpful and began to feel understood. I felt like I belonged, and so I really hope you guys can get to that point where, You can open up to one, two, or three of your friends just about the things that you've experienced in your life, and you can even tell them, you know, again, without this becoming unhealthy or a codependent relationship, or just relying on each other in unhealthy ways, you can tell them that you're feeling lonely.

The practical ideas for this tip are really simple. Just write down three people who you wanna be closer friends. And again, this is non-romantic, just three people who you wanna be closer friends with. And to take that a step further, schedule a time. Each week or every other week or once a month, however often, to hang out with those close friends.

Put it on your calendar, right? Set a reminder, turn an alert on so you don't forget, and just do that. Make that a habit. I do this with some of my friends who are spread out all over the country. We have one night a month that we just. Take to FaceTime or Skype each other and it's really good. We did that on like the, I think it's the second Monday of the month.

And it's super, super helpful to just have like that same time every month. And we often end up moving it to another night. But the point is we're actually doing it because it's on the calendar and we have reminders set up to, to tell us. And of course we're being intentional about it. Putting on your calendar is not automatically gonna make you do it, but you'll be more likely to do it.

And another friend of mine, uh, we hang out like every three weeks. We. Said, and I realized that some of you guys are like, Ugh, I don't wanna put things on my calendar. I'm not like that. I'm not that structured. And that's fine, but have some sort of regular routine way that you hang out with your friends if that's not happening.

And using your calendar doesn't make you like a need freak. So that's okay. So the second tip again, is build your relationships. The third tip to cure loneliness is change your negative thinking. Patterns not long ago. I've read an article in Psychology Today that explained, uh, a meta-analysis study about loneliness.

And if you're not familiar with meta-analysis studies, they're basically studies that summarize other studies that have been conducted instead of. Conducting their own study. And what they did in the study is they looked at various methods of treating loneliness, and they just asked the question, What is the most effective method at decreasing loneliness?

There were four methods that they considered. The first method was improve social skills. The second method was enhanced social support. The third was increase. Opportunities for social interaction. And then the fourth method is change negative thinking patterns. And I'll explain each of them a little bit.

So, improve social skills. So this is basic. This is learning how to have a conversation, how to hold eye contact, how to ask questions, how to pick up on social cues, things like that. The second enhanced social support. So this means people who will support you, who will be there for you if you're struggling or you're facing a problem in your life.

The next method was increase opportunities for social interactions. So basically, you know, if you're not going out and seeing people, just do that. Attend events, play games, join a league, whatever. So the last method was change, negative thinking patterns. And just to explain this one a little bit, the research found, it's kind of surprising, but the research found that over time, chronic loneliness, Makes us increasingly sensitive to.

And on the lookout for rejection and hostility in ambiguous social situations, lonely people immediately think the worst. Another way to say that is lonely people pay more attention to the negative in social situations than the positive. For example, if a lonely person is out with a friend, uh, who's maybe acting kind of distant, they're not really talking, they're not making eye contact, that seem kind of distracted, that lonely person may immediately think that they must have done something wrong.

That or something's wrong with them, and that causes the lonely person to withdraw, to isolate themselves further, which makes them more lonely. And so you could just see it's just this vicious cycle of loneliness. Now, which of those methods do you think was the most effective at reading this? I thought, well, it's probably one of the first three.

Right, because improving your social skills, that's definitely has to help. You know, getting more social support, people who can support you in difficult times, that's definitely gonna help too. And of course, interacting with more people is definitely gonna help when it comes to loneliness. But I was actually wrong.

I, I thought that, but I was actually wrong. What the study found was the most effective method was changing negative thinking patterns. The article went on to say, treatment methods aimed at changing. Thinking patterns were on average four times more likely than other methods in reducing loneliness four times.

In fact, the other three approaches weren't particularly effective at all. Pretty amazing. So what's the takeaway? Your thinking matters that much. And you may have heard this old proverb that's often attributed to Ralph Waldo Emerson. So a thought reenact. So an act reap a habit. So a habit reap a character.

So a character, Repa Destiny. In other words, that really all starts with our thoughts, what we think matters, and in a way, our life is really a result. Of our thoughts. And so when you fall into negative thinking, immediately challenge your negative thoughts. Engage 'em with a logical part of your mind.

Don't just let your emotions rule. You can ask the question, is that actually true or is there maybe another way to look at it? And going back to the example of going out with a friend who's acting kind of distant, the what the lonely person should do is ask the question, is it possible? That maybe they had a difficult day, that maybe their boyfriend or their girlfriend broke up with them, or maybe their family's going through a rough time.

You know, asking that question is completely reasonable, cuz that might be the case. It might not be you, it might be something else. And so just consider other ways of looking at it if you immediately go to attack yourself or think that, Oh my gosh, I'm horrible and this takes being really intentional.

But it does work as the research shows. And don't be afraid too, to ask people if there's something you did that was. Don't constantly ask this question. You know, think through the other possible reasons why they might be feeling that way. But you can ask them, Hey, was there something I did that rubbed you the wrong way?

Or was there something I did that bothered you? And so the practical ideas here, kind of like I was just going through. And so the practical ideas for this tip, every night while you're brushing your teeth, just take two minutes, one minute to reflect on the things that you were thankful. And I know this might sound funny, or this might sound like a silly tip, but Harvard Research on Happiness actually shows that people who did this really simple exercise of reflecting on three things that they're thankful for, reported higher levels of happiness.

And so my wife and I, we do this every night. We just say three things that we're thankful for, and it could be really simple. I'm really thankful for the ice cream that I just say. I'm really thankful for the show that we watch. I'm thankful for the friends that we have. Whatever it is, it doesn't need to be complex.

Keep it simple. And if you're not seeing any progress after you try this for a bit, go ahead and seek out a counselor. Go, go find a counselor. There's really no shame in doing that. It's really helped me and they're, again, they're professionally trained to deal with this stuff, and so go to them. They have a bunch of tools and techniques that they can help beyond what I just offer that can help you change your negative thinking patterns so you don't feel so alone.

So the third tip, change your negative thinking. Patterns. Tip number four is a really simple and quick tip, guys. Find a community that understands you. And what I mean by this, friendships are fantastic, but you also need a tribe of people that are like you, that understand you and that know you what you've been through, and they know your experience.

And I love my friends. They're awesome, but they can't always relate to me when it comes to the struggles that I. As a child of divorce. And so being around people who get that at least from time to time is really healthy, important, and even healing. And so there's really nothing complicated here. Like I mentioned before, at the core of loneliness is a feeling that we don't belong.

And so finding a place where we do belong is incredibly healing. So find a tribe. Some practical ideas here for this. Tip, you can join a club, a league, a group on campus, and again, seek out counseling if you need it, especially group counseling. That could be really helpful. For this tip store, we have a free online community.

You can join our online community by going to restored ministry.com. Again, ministry is singular restored ministry.com/. Community on there. You'll fill out a quick form, again, one to two minutes, and then we'll get back to you through email and get you edited into the group and some of the benefits to that.

You're just, again, surrounded by people who understand you. They know what you've been through, they've probably been through it themselves. You can speak freely about the stuff that you're dealing with, again, to a group of people who actually get it, and you'll be challenged to grow into a better and stronger person and learn how to deal with the pain and the problems that you face in your life.

And so we'd love to have you in our online community. Again, that's restored ministry.com. Slash community. So that fourth tip again is find a community that understands you. And then our last tip. And like I mentioned, the four tips that we just went through we're more human tips. But this last tip is a spiritual tip.

And so the tip is build your relationship with God. And guys, listen up if you don't believe in God. If you have a rocky relationship with God or no relationship at all, you may be hesitant to keep listening, but I really encourage you to keep listening wherever you're at. It's okay to be there. And in those cases where you're really struggling in your relationship with God or you maybe don't even believe that God exists, I challenge you just to take an objective look.

An honest look at whatever it is that's holding you back from that. What I've often found is as children of divorce, typically the reasons we have for rejecting God or rebelling against God is usually more emotional than intellectual. And so for example, if you doubt God's existence, then take a serious look at the arguments for and against it.

You really owe it to yourself to seek those answers. Cuz this is a. Deal. Again, I'm not trying to shove God down your guys' throats, but this is a big deal and we all deserve to really ask these questions and to consider these things. If you're like me, the barriers to your relationship with God, like I said, aren't intellectual, rather they're emotional, and I've struggled, guys.

I've really struggled and still do at times to answer the question, why does God allow? So much evil and suffering in our world if he's a good God. And like I've said before, we're gonna do like a separate episode or maybe even a series of episodes talking about this topic, so there's no sound bite that I can offer to you to answer this question of.

Evil and suffering in our world. But if you wanna learn more about it, I'm gonna link to two videos in the show notes. One of them's by Chris Stephanic, who really awesome, awesome guy. I know him personally. He's just the man. And in this video he asked the question, Why does God let us suffer? And so again, that's in the show notes.

Which I'll give you at the end. The second video is from a Catholic priest, Father Mike Schmitz. He's awesome, awesome priest. The title of his video is, Why does God Let Bad Things Happen? Really, Really Well Done Video, and he just dives into this problem of why does God let us suffer if he's. So good. And just to touch on this topic briefly, you know, how have I dealt with this problem of pain and suffering in my life?

There's so much to say here, but just to keep it brief, I've dealt with it through prayer and through reflecting on the suffering and death of Jesus, and I've realized that. As I was suffering through my family's breakup, as I was going through all that pain, God wasn't simply observing at all from the distance that that's kind of how I felt to be honest with you.

I was like, God, where the heck are you? Where are you? And where were you looking back now? Where were you God, in those moments when I needed you the most? Where were you? And what I've learned over the years, and I'm very convinced of this, is that he was right there with me. In the messiness, in the brokenness, his heart was breaking with mine.

He was saying, I hate this too. I don't want it to be this way. Now, of course, you may be thinking, Well, why does God allow that? And the simple answer again, which needs much more explanation, which is why I mentioned those two videos, is that God values human freedom. That much. And then the second part of that, of course, is that he can bring good out of evil.

And there's a ton of examples of this, which again we'll get into in a later episode, but that still doesn't answer this question perfectly, Especially when you see a baby with cancer or some natural disaster that just kills a ton of people and wounds and mames others. But that priest that I mentioned, Father Mike Schmitz, what he says is that sometimes God's only response to our pain is his presence.

And it takes time to chew on that. I totally get it. But that's helped me so much. God's like a true friend who doesn't just like take away our problems, but he endures them with us. And again, guys, our relationship with God I realize is not an easy topic for so many people. I just know that he knows you.

Better than you know yourself. He's always present and he loves you passionately, and in the end, only he can ultimately satisfy that ache in your heart. For intimacy only, he can truly be the ultimate cure for loneliness. Even if those human things help a ton, only God can ultimately fulfill us. Now, the practical ideas here.

Spend time with God, just sit in silence with him for 10 minutes every day. Start just with one day. If you don't do this at all, that's okay. You can schedule it right. The two important things to do this are you need a time and you need a place somewhere in your house, in your apartment, on your campus, somewhere where you can just sit with God and talk with him, and speaker and writer, Matthew Kelly suggests that we just ask the questions.

God, who am I? Who are you? What am I here for? And what matters most and what matters least. So just ask those four questions in another tactic for talking with God, as Matthew Kelly likes to call it in the classroom of silence. Tell him about your life, right? You don't need to go to him with like a perfect speech prepared.

Just talk about what matters to you. He wants to hear it. And if you're struggling with something in life, tell him about it. Right? If you're having a hard time making a decision, ask him what he thinks and don't expect him to communicate to you like we do, right? Talking to each other audibly in my life, he's spoken to me more through my desires, through my thoughts, through my past experiences, and reflecting on them, and mostly through other people.

And one thing that's really helped me really untangle. My distorted image of God, especially due to my parents' separation and divorce, was finding a spiritual director. So this is like a coach that can help you navigate your relationship with God, that can help you answer questions that you have about God and maybe questions that you're struggling with, and to live out God's plan for your life, which is always a plan that helps you flourish, helps you thrive in life, even if there's suffering involved.

And you could find a spiritual director by going to restored. Dot com slash coaching. That's the same link as the counselors. We have two separate networks of counselors that we trust and spiritual directors that we trust and recommend. And uh, just like with the counseling, if there's not someone in your local area, you can meet with them, uh, on FaceTime, on Skype, or maybe even just over the phone and start to talk things through.

It can be super, super helpful. And in my life, that's been really healing overall, but especially when it comes to building my relationship with God in battling loneliness. And so again, the last. Build your relationship with God. I wanna quickly name them off again, the first tip, find meaning in your life.

The second tip, build your relationships. And then the third tip, change your negative thinking patterns. Number four is find a community. That understands you, and number five is build your relationship with God. A bonus tip for you guys, you've probably heard the saying, mind over matter, but there's actually another saying that goes body over mind and basically it's so easy to feel lonely when we're stuck inside our heads.

Right? Like we talked about those negative thinking patterns. And so one cure is to just exercise, like move your bodies, get your blood pumping, and without getting into all the signs behind it, cause there's a lot of research on this out there, exercising is gonna make you feel better. And so do whatever you can, do, whatever is safe for you to do.

Go on a run, ride a bike, swim, walk, lift weights, play a sport, do whatever exercise you. To do. And if you don't like exercising, then just go on a walk or do something that's a little bit more active than what you're used to. And this tip has helped me a ton, really exercises nature's medicine because it pumps your bodies with really good feeling endorphins.

And the last thing I wanna say here, guys, is. Loneliness is usually a symptom of a greater problem. And so I don't just wanna focus on treating the symptom of loneliness, but really getting down to the root problem. An example of this would be if you have a toothache, you should find relief from that pain, right?

You might need to take medicine or put ice on it, whatever, but it would be really foolish to simply stop there. Just just focus on making your tooth feel better and nothing more. You really should go to the dentist. Allow him to look at the tooth and discover why it is. Your tooth hurts so that he can fix the underlying problem so you can fix the underlying problem.

It's the same thing with loneliness, and so I invite you to think about this, to reflect on it, to journal on it, and really uncover that root cause. It may really help you realize that you need to fix another problem in your life first. And by fixing that problem, you may realize that you feel less alone.

And doing that alone can be scary, right? You might need a guide to face those problems. And so get a counselor or a spiritual director, or both. And like I said, many of the tips that we gave you guys do actually focus on the root cause, which is essentially, like I said, feeling like we don't belong because our family has broken and our parents aren't together.

But still, there may be other problems underneath it all that deserve attention to. And so here's the challenge for you guys. Pick one of these tips to implement today or tomorrow. Write it down on a post-it note. Put it on your desk, your bed, your laptop. You know, ask a friend to check in with you frequently and hold you accountable to, to doing that thing.

Or you can email us. You can email me. What practical idea you're starting and I can help keep you accountable. So you can email me@joeyrestoredministry.com. Again, that's joey restored ministry.com, and totally open to feedback too. On this episode. What, what was helpful, what wasn't helpful? I wanna learn so that we can create content that's better for you guys.

But if you wanna share what you're gonna do to help decrease the loneliness in your life, then go ahead and email me again. That's Joey ReSTOR. ministry.com and whatever you choose the advice in this episode, it's only gonna make your life better if you put it into action, thinking about it as fine and good, but it's only gonna make your life better if you put it into action.

So get after it. The resources and the citations to the different studies that I mentioned are in the show notes, uh, restored. ministry.com/ten, and if you want, you can actually get an ebook with this content on that link, and that's for free. Again, that's restored ministry.com/ten, the number 10. Thank you so much for listening if this episode has been useful for you guys.

Go ahead and subscribe and share this episode with someone you know who could use it. And always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person. You were born to be.

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#009: A Retreat for Adult Children of Divorce | Dr. Daniel Meola, PhD

How did you find out that your parents were divorcing? Today’s guest, Dr. Daniel Meola, actually found out before his mom. Then, he called her to break the news.

Dr. Daniel Meola.jpg

How did you find out that your parents were divorcing? Today’s guest, Dr. Daniel Meola, actually found out before his mom. Then as an 11 year old boy, he called her to break the news.

You’ll hear about the impact the divorce has had on him over the years and what he’s doing to help other adult children of divorce to heal.

To get more info and sign up for a Recovering Origins retreat, go here.

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Coming Up: Episode #010: 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness

Thanks for listening! Our next episode features 5 practical tips on how to cure loneliness.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

It's probably no surprise to you that resources for children of divorce of separation are practically nonexistent. In fact, I started restore to change that and to build those resources, but we're not fighting this battle alone. You know, our goal is to become the first resource that anyone thinks of or recommends in the United States or even the world, eventually the world, to help teenagers and young adults from divorced or separated families, or really anyone who, who loves or leads them.

But I never planned to do it alone. I wanted Restore to offer a lot of help directly. But also indirectly by connecting those who need the help with those who offered the help. And so today we're introducing you to a Catholic resource for adult children of divorce. It's a retreat to help you in your healing process.

You'll hear the story of the man who started these retreats, who is also a child of divorce. You'll hear how he sadly found out about his parents' separation and later divorce, before his mom even knew. And, and you'll hear the story that he tells about that, but you'll also see how he's taken that pain and he's transformed it to help others.

Keep listening.

Welcome to the Restored podcast, helping you cope. Heal and grow after your parents' divorce or separation so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode nine and quick disclaimer. This episode is especially geared towards Catholic Christians. Dr.

Daniel Mela, who is our guest, is a devout Catholic, and his ministry is specifically focused on the Catholic church. And of course he wants to help everyone, but he specifically focused on Catholics in the Catholic church. But naturally, anyone with an open mind can listen to this show. A little bit about our guests.

Dr. Daniel Mela is an adult child of divorce here into his PhD in Theology of Marriage and Family from the Pontifical, John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family in Washington. It's a long name. Uh, while studying at the institute, he helped create recovering origins, a unique retreat to heal adult children of divorce.

He's been leading those retreats since 2015. In 2018, he founded the Life Giving Wounds Traveling Retreat team to spread the recovering Origins retreat and other, uh, ministry. To adult children divorce around the country. Dan, uh, Dr. Daniel has over 15 years of experience running retreats and giving presentations to various groups.

He, he currently works at the John Paul ii St. John Paul ii National Shrine in Washington DC where he facilitates, uh, evangelization in catechesis events for people of, of all ages. Now, Dr. Daniel and I have become friends from afar. Uh, so you hear me call him Dan, I, I just did a little bit ago. Yeah. Very grateful for him and everything he's doing like restored, he's really one of the few people out there who are trying to help adult children of divorce.

And listen to the end. Make sure you listen to the end, because we actually have a discount for you if you wanna attend one of the retreats that Dr. Daniel runs. So here's our conversation. Dan, thank you so much for coming on the show. Hey, great to be with you, Joey. Love what you're doing at your ministry.

Thanks so much. You as well. I wanna, I wanna talk about your ministry, but let's actually start with your story. If you would take us to the day your parents separated. How old were you? What happened? How did you react? Yeah, so I was 11 years old in sixth grade, and I actually found the letter, my father left for my mother, um, saying his intention to separate, uh, and I was, you know, shocked, Saturn bewildered.

And of course I called my mother, you know, about it right away. And so I had the very sad and fortunate position of actually telling her about the news and, you know, she was at work, couldn't comfort me and, you know, just told me to quickly put it down and that we talked later. Um, but of course, like I sent me in a whirlwind, I had a lot fear and dread and confusion.

And yeah, I mean, it's a day I'll never forget. And it was a day that was very, very difficult in my life. And after that, you know, my mom sat me down and talked about a little bit what was going on. It was still a shock to me. There had been some high conflict leading up to this decision, but it still was a shock.

It still felt like the rug was being pulled underneath of me and you know, I wasn't expecting it. And they said that they were separating, they weren't divorcing right away. They were gonna try to work on the relationship. And you know, that gave me a little bit of hope that maybe they get back together.

But unfortunately they never did. And it set off a pattern of 15 years of separation actually. So I'm very sensitive and attentive to those who are sort of in limbo. Um, and their parents haven't completely divorced, but the separation's dragging on of a big heart for them. and eventually they did divorce 15 years later.

So it's a lot of years of limbo, although it seemed pretty evident it was gonna be a divorce, um, after a few years when they stopped talking to one another. So that's a little bit about what happened. And, um, yeah, I mean, it was defining event in my life. It, it changed so much, uh, in my childhood heart.

Yeah. I, I mean, I can't imagine, I'm so sorry for what happened and I can't imagine finding out from a letter and then forming your mom about it, like that must have been traumatic. Oh yeah. I mean, it always is, right? Like, I've never talked to adult child divorce, separation. That moment wasn't traumatic, and you sort of, mm-hmm replayed in your mind a lot about how you handled it.

There be a lot of false guilt and shame about how you handled it. And, you know, that's part of my story too. Like, should I have even called my mom? Should I have told about, you know, told her about it and. It was weird. I felt like complicit in the, the separation itself, because I told her it was like, it was so bizarre, uh, to be the bear of that news.

Uh, rather than receiving it, I just, I felt so dirty and ashamed and I don't know, somehow like I was doing it to my mom and then to hear my mom's first reaction before she could process anything, that was, that was brutal. That was very brutal. I mean, I remember crying myself to sleep and actually many nights afterwards, you know, I had definitely had a difficulty in sleeping after that.

Yeah. Cause my home was split up. Yeah. Yeah. No. And 15 years of separation. I'm glad you mentioned that. That's one thing that I don't think we talk about enough, but at ReSTOR we're, we specifically wanna talk about the fact that there's people who come from divorced families and there's people who come from separated families and they're different.

And, and so I'm, I'm glad that you're paying attention to that and you obviously have experienced that. You have a lot of, uh, authority to speak on that. Thanks. Yeah. I mean they're very similar and a lot of families go in and out of them, um, as well. Cause definitely when the separation happened, a lot of it was basically like living in a divorced home, except for like the first year or two they were trying to work on things with counseling and that.

But you know, going between two homes, feeling like your home was separated, you lost a family meal, there were no family vacations. Dad and mom were arguing often through you as a proxy. So it was, you know, very much like, um, you know, when I became an adult child divorce. So, you know, I'm very sensitive to those who families, uh, are going through separation.

And it is unique too, because you are a little bit in limbo. There's, you like to think there's a little bit more hope . Mm-hmm. . Cause it's not so definitive. But every situation's different. Like I said, after two or three years, once they stopped talking to each other, I knew it was, you know, I knew it was bad, uh, it was over, but you always held out hope.

And then. Uh, the crazy thing is the year that they divorced is the year I got married, . So that was its own difficulty because, you know, as you know, it's hard for us to enter into a relationship, let alone marriage, you know, hoping it's gonna last because you've all, you've known all your life with the most important relationship that forms you developmentally is brokenness.

So, you know, you question everything related to love and to have that happen, sort of the year I got married was just man, oh man, talk about struggles with trust. And I had done a lot of healing by that point. You know, I was 26 at that point. I done a lot, a lot of healing with God and, and others, but, uh, it still was, still was really hard and it just was such a sign of contradiction to everything I wanted to do in my own marriage.

So it was, um, interesting times to say the least. You bring up a great point. I can't imagine, you know, going through all of that along with getting married and the fear and the anxiety and all that, that came along with it. But you bring up a great point that when we go into different chapters of life or certain events happen, it can bring a lot of that brokenness right back to the surface.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Without a doubt. I mean, I often say that divorce is a lifelong grief that rears its head at every holiday milestone, you know, every pickup and drop off at the different home. Like, you know, just this last holiday, you know, I'm going between two homes in my hometown remembering that. So yeah.

Rears its head at all these major milestones and you've gotta confront that and heal again from that. And, um, mm-hmm. , I, I think that's important thing to, to recognize that. It's a lifelong grief, and that's okay though. That doesn't have to be depressing because you learn how to deal with it better and better so it doesn't wreck you like it maybe once did early on.

Or if you're on heeled or you sort of push the wound aside, you can still draw joy and hope and faith and love from those moments. You just have to be intentional about it, which, you know, one of the big differences now in my life is how I handle those moments. So, and not that it's any better than other trauma.

Trauma is always tragic and bad, but you're right, it continues on, it's drawn out. Like you said, you had mentioned that it was such a pivotal point in your life. It really a defining moment when your parents separated and I'm sure everything that led up to it and everything that followed too was a part of that.

But how did you see, um, Breakup of your parents affect you in the years that followed? Oh, man. , like, it affected so much of my life. Like, I don't think there was a time when I wasn't thinking about it. I mean, certainly there were, you're unconscious about it, but like, I feel like I dabbled in like every unhealthy coping method, possible.

Sure. Except for drugs. And, you know, I never touched drugs for, for whatever reason. I just knew that they were dangerous. But I feel like, yeah, I feel like I dabbled in every unhealthy coping mechanism, uh, like unhealthy amounts of anger. Certainly. Um, it's interesting, I dabbled in them. I, I didn't like stay in patterns of, you know, like struggles with like, promiscuity or drugs, like some people.

Yeah. It's interesting. I just sort of dabbled just like, okay, what what's this gonna give me? What's that gonna give me? And, um, you know, ob obviously like all those unhealth, the coping mechanisms, and it, it goes beyond just like, Promiscuity and like anger are those, those two are tend to be like at the forefront or sadness, but I mean it like manifests itself in other ways in my life, like a certain workaholism, like trying to earn the love of my parents, you know, by being successful in school, by being a role follower, I was mostly a role follower actually.

Um, even though I dabbled in, you know, what a lot of people would call risky behaviors at. But, um, you know, being a people pleaser, I definitely struggled with that, uh, to cope, you know, instead of sharing my true self, just, you know, saying what other people wanted to say just in the hopes that they would stay around me, right?

Cuz I wanted whatever stability I could get. Certainly staying in relationships too long, I mean, it just, it runs the gamut. Uh, also, you know, what's interesting is in the media aftermath, and I think this is a grace, you know, I'm a Christian, I'm a Catholic, and a big part of my story is the faith and the media aftermath.

Uh, luckily one of the gifts that my mom gave me afterwards is strong, strong Catholic faith that turned to. Initially I did that initially. It's interesting, right after the separation I started praying a ton, like actually like three or four rosaries cuz I was Catholic, you know, praying to Jesus through Mary.

It was, you know, built into my consciousness and um, that's just really interesting that would like, help me get the sleep at night. And I did that for two years and then I think I became disillusioned because, you know, I was treating it like a little bit like magic. Like I was hoping if I just did this enough, if I just prayed enough.

God would bring my parents back together. You know, not really realizing that, you know, God respects their freedom so much that people can choose against, uh, what is good, you know? And, um, so I prayed a ton. Like I'm talking like, I became sort of obsessed with it, like 3, 4, 5 rosaries a day for two years and nothing happened and I sort of became disillusioned.

And, uh, I went far away from God for a while and for the first three years of, of, um, high school and, you know, part of my story to my shame, I think my low point was just feeling a certain anger and hatred towards God, which I didn't really reveal to anybody outwardly, cuz I know it break my mom's heart and just being far from him.

And so that was all the unhealthy stuff. Now, what really saved my life, I think, and was a big turning point, was rediscovering that faith, uh, deeper level. About junior year in high school, uh, going on a retreat, I went on a retreat that really changed my life and brought me back to, to Christ and an authentic understanding of Christ and the way he, he respects our freedom, but the all the different ways that he's there in my life, even if my parents never get back together.

Helped me to rediscover that and just rediscover that. You know, I was really pushing away the one thing that could heal me, uh, which was, God, you know, I, I really believe that the deepest cause of suffering and the aftermath of our parents' divorce, separation is the absence of God. But, you know, he never fully left me, which was great.

Even when I was pushing him away as one priest told me, at least I had my hand on his chest. . I always liked that image, even when we're pushing away, like we have our hands on his chest and his, his heart is beating for love for us. But I mean, there's so much to that goes into my healing. Like it's, it's not just one retreat like that just started my healing back and, and helped me to know that I am actually loved.

Okay. And my parents to the best of ability afterwards did try to love me. It wasn't like some cases where one of the parents just completely abandoned or both of them checked out. They were trying to love, but I still had a loss. And, uh, I still need to recover that deeper love of God. That was, that was crucial to my healing.

Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk more about that. So obviously your relationship with God was just so instrumental, so key, really the source of, of so much of your healing. And um, of course, you know, there's human level healing that I'm sure you went through, uh, learning, you know, different coping mechanisms.

But let's focus on the relationship with God. Cuz I think this is important and some people listening, you know, you, you may not believe in God, and that's okay if that's where you're at. But I just challenge you to hear Dan out, hear his story and how much this has affected him. And, uh, hopefully it'll bring you some help and maybe even, uh, challenge you to question why, you know, maybe you've gone away from God.

And, and so Dan, in talking about this, I'm just curious how is, how did your perception of God change over the years? Cause it sounds like in the beginning you saw God as someone of a divine butler like, Hey God, bring me this, bring me this, get my parents back together. And then, you know, Then I'll be good.

How did that change over the years? Yeah. , Uh, yeah, My image of God, and, and this is something too one, I like explain to listeners, especially those who are far from the faith, that so often we push God away. And this was so true in my life because we project certain image on God, like of our parents' relationship.

And when that relationship is messed up, we can project those same qualities on God. Um, and what I mean by that is, you know, initially, yeah, initially I approached God sort of as, um, what's interesting you said Butler, but just something like, okay, I'll believe in you if you do this. You know, like I made a deal, like, I'll believe in you if you do this.

And, and also thinking like I could somehow manipulate God's will by like praying enough. Like I was, you know, like I said, I was praying a ton, um, which was, which was interesting. I don't even know where it came from. I mean, some of it could be my mom's faith, but it was just interesting to me. And I, I said it's also a grace cuz even though it was a flawed view of God, I think there was something there of like, Mary comforting me, like I said, like she did help me get to sleep.

And again, when I say Mary, I know Protestants, or like, well, why are you focused on Mary? Well, every time I say that, I know very much. It's like Mary leading me to Christ and Christ doing, you know, intercessory work through her. But, um mm-hmm. , but I mean like, helped me to sleep. It's just interesting so it wasn't like all bad.

But yeah, I, I treated God as a, um, you know, like a deal. Then when the deal fell apart, you know, I became disillusioned very far from God. Again, very secret about this. It was, it was, a lot of it was interior, but, you know, I just stopped praying. I went to mass appease my mom. But, you know, I, I found it boring and all these things and, um, I think the biggest thing that changed was instead of seeing God as a, you know, like.

A secular review of Santa dispensing gifts if you do X enough. I really saw God as somebody who suffered with us. I think that was the big thing that changed during the retreat. Um, I mean this is a whole nother podcast about this, but to see that his answered and love for me was to suffer with me, really changed a key thing that a priest helped me to see.

I couldn't articulate it as well as this. Now, when I was in high school, I couldn't articulate it. But that, um, you know, God didn't come to take away all the suffering in our life, but to fill all that suffering with his presence, that was the answer. And I've been looking for God just to take this suffering away.

I thought that's what God does. And sometimes he does that, you know, sometimes he answers. But the far deeper miracle, because we're all gonna die one day, the fall far deeper miracle is to recognize his presence in the suffering and to allow him to. With his joy, his love, his hope, and that was the change of image of a God who suffers personally with us.

And I as somebody outside of me and just giving me good gifts and just taking away suffering again. I thought that's all he did right? So to see that there's something much deeper going on. And you know, part of my story being Catholic too is rediscovering Catholicism and the amazing gift of the Eucharist, uh, which we believe there.

Christ suffers with us in a unique way. His presence suffers with us a unique way. Uh, his, his passion, his death across, but also the resurrection and then simultaneous with that. Renewed sense of a God who suffers with us and a God is, you know, really, really with us, not just far. Also, you know, a God who loves us, A God who brings us joy.

And I was also drawn to the joy of, um, the people on the retreat team. They had a joy that I was lacking. And so just rediscovering that joy in God that, I mean, there's so much that can be said about. But it's just something you have to dive in and start to experience yourself as you start to live a Christian life.

Cuz I've been brought so many joys I wouldn't have been if I wasn't living a Christian life. And uh, yeah, just discovering that God has God of joy and receiving that joy by following him. Yeah. And, and to stop projecting to like my views of, you know, my parents onto God, um, or run away from God. And the other side of it is run away from God because of the hypocrisy of my parents' religion that was there too.

You know, I don't wanna get too much into it, but there was a certain hypocrisy, like what I found was interesting, I'll just state this and may Doche on a divorce and separation shared this with me too is one of the things that disillusioned me about faith that I was just so angry about for so long in high school was, how was it two people who went to mass every Sunday could divorce?

I mean if mass was so important. Why or how could it, how could they do, how could they go to mass on Sunday and be separating on Tuesday? Right. Yeah. I just, I just, I knew these things were incompatible and I was so angry about that. And initially that was a question, but then it became full blown anger, you know, and I just, that, that destroyed me.

But what I had to learn was like, that was hypocrisy. They weren't allowing that to fully enter into their life. Now, I mean, I think there's some genuine faith that was there. I don't mean to some of my parents short. My parents are wonderful, loving people who there is something of the faith they took serious, but there was some hypocrisy there.

And I had to realize that they weren't really living out the mass on all the other days of the week. And that's the challenge for all of us, right? We're all sinners. So I'm also aware that when discussing sins of others that, you know, needs to begin with my own life, recognize and send my own. But we have to live that out.

We can't just leave God for Sundays. Right. And I had to realize that, um, that's sort of what was going on. And uh, but for a time I was really angry because of that. And I would just say to the listeners who feel far away from God, is it because you associate God was some hypocrisy parent? Rather than guide it in who he is and himself and those who actually follow him.

And to look to the models of people that actually follow him, uh, sort of over God. Cause I think we can run away from God for those two reasons, but there's many more. But that, that was the case in my life. Yeah. Those are all excellent points. And like you said, it's a huge topic that deserves its own show or series of shows.

And guys will be bringing you shows on this topic, especially a topic of, you know, if God is all powerful, how does, why does he allow us to suffer? So we're gonna talk about that more in future episodes. But one of the things, uh, that you said, my, my takeaway from that and like you just challenged everyone listening, is maybe the.

Person that you think God is isn't the one who he actually is. And so kind of challenging that idea and that, that's what I challenge everyone listening to do as well, just like Dan, uh, just said, is think, think through that, reflect on that. And uh, you may be surprised what you find. Yeah. And guys is one of surprises too.

Like I feel like he's constantly surprising me with who he is. So to not box him into any one concept, but to really encounter him or give him a chance to encounter you. Yeah, that's beautiful. Dr. Uh, Peter Creep from Boston College. He's a fluer at Boston College. For anyone who, who doesn't know who he is, he writes a lot of books and just phenomenal man, really, really intelligent.

Uh, he talks about how, uh, like God, You know, in a way, in an using an analogy like a good friend who Dan, like you said, he sits with us in the midst of our suffering. He doesn't just try to, you know, get us out of it. And Dr. Creeped, I think he uses the example of your car breaking down. You know, like on a country road in the middle winter, a friend will call a tow truck for you, but a really true, authentic friend is gonna be there with you sitting in the car waiting for the tow truck to come.

And he, uh, he uses that analogy to kinda show, um, yeah, God's just not that divine butler. The Santa, like he said, who's just gonna give us everything we want in every moment. But he is really gonna be with us through that all. And, uh, I I think that's beautiful. And if you, if you look for that, uh, I do think you'll find it.

I have in. Yeah. Amen. I would not be the man I am today and have the healing I have today without God, like, full stop. That's beautiful. Going back to different coping mechanisms that you use, you mentioned some of the unhealthy things that you had done, uh, to cope. How about some healthy coping mechanisms?

What did you kind of figure out over the year on a spiritual level, but also on a human level? Uh, what did you do to help you cope in healthy ways? Yeah. Um, I think for me, again, it began with the spiritual, then like went into the human level, . Um, sure. That was just my path. I know there's different paths, you know, but again, it was first, okay, so first getting the relationship with God, right?

And giving him a priority in my life. So turning to him when I'm in my lowest in prayer, that was huge. But, uh, o obviously too, like having good Holy Catholic friends at the retreat gave to me, turning to them because there's a, there's a big world of difference talking about a problem with somebody who.

Just while one doesn't care, just wants to complain about it versus somebody who wants to be there with you, uh, grieve the pain, but also strengthen you in the faith through it. I mean, there's a big world of difference there. And those two types of friendships, cuz again, I had some, some conversation with friends prior to being a good Christian community about it, but it was just complaining.

It was toxic. It was a real toxic discussion about our wounds. Um, it was just complaining, complaining, complaining, and, and you sort of just get stuck in the wound. Whereas the conversation changed with my friends who were, uh, Christians and Catholics. Like there was, there was hope, there was something that could be done about the situation.

Yeah. All the suffering wouldn't go away, but it was much more constructive. Um, and all the different like, suggestions that they gave, you know, gave me or we sort of worked out and discovered on our own. So, you know, definitely find that in person. Uh, Catholic Christian community made a big difference. I mean, and then from that, I think they challenged me in how to like rethink and live love obviously.

Again, I believe the Catholic church gives a beautiful vision of love that was key to, to have a blueprint for love. I was always searching for a blueprint for love cause I didn't have that for my parents. So the Catholic faith sort of gave that to me, but then it was worked out in those holy friendships, uh, cuz one thing to have that blueprint, but another thing to actually try to, uh, live that, which, you know, again, friends did.

So, you know, it was a little bit of the, the human side of things like changing my approach to dating. Changing my approach to chasity, changing my approach to, uh, marriage changing my approach of what I'm looking for and a person to marry all changed. So those are all human things that changed. Yeah, I mean, there's so much here.

I . I mean, you talk about good coping. Yeah. Again, so much of my story, spiritual, I mean too for like, for me coping was like also the sacraments. And each sacrament has a story that helped me to heal, whether it be the Eucharist or marriage. I mean, my marriage was very healing both on a human spiritual level, but that happened many years later.

But I mean also, you know, on a human level, coping, like I went to a spiritual director. I know you're big on that in your ministry. I went to a counselor that helps. I did avail myself of all these tools, uh, to help heal. But the three biggest things I would say were, you know, my Catholic faith, then person, community with good.

Mm-hmm. good, you know, Christian friends and the sacraments. Those would be the three things that have helped me heal most. That makes so much sense. There was, there was, there was a bunch of things that, again, I believe that God led me to on a human and spiritual level through it. And it was gradual. It was gradual.

Like the retreat started it, the counseling and therapy came during college. Um, the good friends was throughout it all was high school, end of high school, college, after college, still to this day. Right. In my married life. And speaking about it, I mean, that's another thing like, oh, on the human level, You know, I, It was frustrating on one level.

You could talk about, in certain terms with people about complaining about your parents, but another level, there just was such a silence around this issue, especially experienced that in my family. Yeah. And this big Italian family who just don't talk about these deep problems. I think some of it's cultural, but some of it's cultural to America that, you know what I call now putting fancy words to it, was there was a wound of silence and a lot of sectors in my life.

So, you know, And some of it was self-imposed. I didn't want anybody to see that I was broken. Right. But some of it was imposed by others that you just don't talk about this. And um, you know, so on a human level, I need to break the silence, but again, in a healthy way where I didn't get stuck in the past but could confront the past in, in a healthy way.

Yeah, that's a great point that you make about the silence. Cuz I think that's so common in so many of our lives. We just don't talk about these things. And so yeah, I really applaud you for having, uh, the courage to change that. And, uh, I, I think like, like you said, it, it's so helpful, it's so healing to just bring this stuff out into the light.

As opposed to just struggling interiorly and, and like, you know, so many children, no divorce do that. We just carry this, all this baggage around with us for years without saying anything often to, to people. And then, uh, you know, in different ways it comes out. Right, Right. And uh, that's part of the reason we feel so alone.

Hmm. Because it's such a deep part of our life and our story. So even though, you know, there's a million do loan divorce every year and countless others who come from separate homes, we feel so alone in our problems cuz we never really talk about mm-hmm , or at least not a constructive way. Again, there's a lot of social media dumps, but that's not a constructive, meaningful.

Discussion of, of the problems. Yeah. Then there is a difference, and I'm glad you're putting that out, shifting to kind of how your life is different now. Uh, though we're, we're always a work in progress. I acknowledge that. A, after going through the healing process, the steps that you've taken, how is your life different now after you've healed and grown?

Yeah, I mean, so many different things. Like, first of all, I don't fear suffering the same way I did early in life. Um, I embrace it when it comes related to this and I take it to the Lord and I try to draw greater faith, hope and love out of it. Uh, faith. I try to allow it to deepen my relationship with God.

And you know who I think God is, hope, you know, I, I respond to it like, Okay, things are gonna be okay. We're gonna find something to do with this that involves greater love. And that's the other thing too. Like I look for the way that these struggles are teaching me to love. I look for the mission that, you know, God might be giving me in these wounds.

And I try to love more deeply. So for me, healing is not, um, the absence of pain, but rather how I respond to that pain. And I respond completely different. I don't get stuck in it. I don't dwell in it as much as I did before. There's not that despair. There's not that frustration. There's not that anger. And also in terms of love, you know, for relationships, you know, I feel very confident in who I am now.

You know? And I feel confident in my love. Uh, you know, there's still areas. My marriage had gone on nine years of marriage here with my awesome beloved wife, Bethany. But feeling very confident in our love, confident in our marriage, and just so many joys and graces from our marriage, you know, And being able to receive that, of also matured in love, receiving love.

I think that's a big thing. One of the side problems of not talking about the effects of our parents' divorce separation on us is in the silence that surrounds us, is what it teaches kids and adults to do is like, okay, you gotta figure it out on your own in a very deep, central way. You've gotta do everything on your own.

Uh, the problem with that is when it comes to love, you can't do it on your own. That's called narcissism. . If you just love on yourself, rather you gotta receive love. And so, like, initially that was very hard for me was to receive love actually. It was easier for me to give but not receive. And actually the greatest gift I can do for my wife is receive her love, cuz that brings her delight.

So I've really matured in that giving and receiving of love. And it's because I, I now have a firm stand, a place to stand upon for love, which is Christ. Um, because I've received love from Christ. So all of those, and I could go on, there are many, many other ways that. I've experienced healing and how my life is different now, but those would be the core of it.

I, I love that you've found so much meaning in the midst of your suffering and you've taken that suffering and you've started a ministry and you've been doing this for years, and we're gonna talk about that in a second. Um, but I really think that's so beautiful because what I've seen so many people who are doing really good work in the world, oftentimes it comes from a really dark place, a place of suffering that they've chosen to transform into something really good and beautiful.

And so I, I see that you've done that. So, um, thank you for, for doing that. It's such a great example, a beautiful example for, for all of us especially, uh, who, who are suffering due to, you know, a broken. Uh, as you know, usually the biggest effect that the divorce has on, on us is our future relationships that impacts our future relationships in negative ways.

And so you touched on, uh, your marriage. You talked a little bit about how it affected, you know, your dating life, but would you draw that out a little bit more? How, how have you seen the effect of your parents' divorce affect your dating relationships and now your own marriage? Oh yeah. I mean, uh, you, you mentioned I do ministry.

This is like a huge topic we talk a lot about. Uh, cuz I also do a lot of ministry with young adults who are dating and getting married. But, but yeah, but going back to my own life, I won't talk in general about the struggles I see. But I mean, going back to my own life, man, , uh, there's so many mistakes I made in love and dating and I just wanna tell all our viewers out there who are struggling with dating.

And I think it's related to parents' divorce, separation, that God can write straight with crooked lines. I am a living example that I've made a lot of mistakes in dating, e everything from, you know, cynicism. I think that was my first response was, you know, the forgo dating actually, um, exclusive dating because, you know, I'm like, love's not gonna last

Like, this is, this is a joke. Get, get out of this relationship. What I can, but I don't know about exclusive dating, you know, to, uh, romanticism. You know, I, I definitely then held up relationships as like, my God, like this is the answer to all my suffering folks. Um, which also disillusioned me and led back to Cism.

So I think cynicism and romanticism sort of are related to one another. Uh, even though I'll talk in a minute about marriage being healing, it, it, uh, I can't solve all our problems alone, again, apart from God. But I had to learn that the hard way cuz I did hold up relationships on a pedestal. Like, if I just find the right spouse, all my problems are gonna be taken care of, right?

Yeah. Um, so I fell into that and then what happened was I was in a few bad relationships and because I was a people pleaser and because I was a romantic, what happened was I'd ignore all the bad warning signs that this relationship is not good because I was grasping to like any good thing because I just so desperately want stability.

I so desperately want whatever little affirmation. You know, I just clung to a relationship that I shouldn't have for a long time that, that needed to, I needed to let go. But again, as a people pleaser, I'm like, ah, I don't wanna do that, and I need whatever stability I could get, again, because the loss, stability in my parents' relationship.

So I just clung to some bad relationships. So I made that mistake, which is directly related to the aftermath of my parents' divorce, wanting stability, wanting affirmation, and a, a romanticism of love as being the answer to all my problems. Um, human love that is, and again, it's a huge part of our healing.

But if that is what you put all your eggs in the basket for healing, you're gonna be let down. Because even in great relationships, no person, no human person can fill every need that we have in our heart. Again, I gotta keep coming back to it cuz it's been true in my life. There's a part of our hearts that only God can provide for.

And I found that through making mistakes and dating and what ended up happening was the most fulfilling relationship was when I brought God to the four of it. So that was, you know, one thing I needed to do. But even then, I did have relationships where, you know, God was at the four of it, but I really wasn't living it.

So the other thing is like , you know, not just bring God to the four of it, but actually make a commitment to living it every day in the relationship. I had to learn that too. Cause I made that mistake, right? Oh, if I just dated a Catholic or Christian, I'll be okay. Right? Um, yeah. , you know, , um, no, you gotta be committed to these, You, you gotta look for women who are committed to your ideals or, or you know, in my case, with women listeners, to men who are committed to living it, not just, um, Not just name only, right?

So you need to see people who are living it day in and day out by their virtue. So I had to learn that. I had to learn that that's what I needed to look for. And the other thing is like, is this person somebody who reciprocates love? Cuz as a people pleaser, which again, I was in the aftermath of my parents' divorce because I just so badly wanted affirmation that I would just give into what other people wanted as a people pleaser.

You know, love really wasn't reciprocated, you know, like it, it was just me trying to please the other, but not receiving love from another. Even if they wanted give it. But even if they didn give it, I didn't believe in that love because it was a mask. I thought they were loving. So I was really bad at receiving love.

And couple of that, I was in a bunch of relationships where it was the love wasn't reciprocated, you know, like they were just taking from me. and I just so desperately wanted to work out that, you know, I let them get away with murder, so to speak. Um, not murder, but mm-hmm. , you know what I mean? Like, just take, take taking, um, that was the bad cycle we got in.

So really learning that the most beautiful and fulfilling relationship is one that's reciprocal and one where I allowed the other person and I allowed the other to enter in my heart to receive. And that was what was really different with Beth and my wife was, it was very reciprocal and I actually really practiced receiving, um, that was sort of like my last leg of like healing.

I needed dating, I got rid of the cynicism and romanticism maybe after high school. But that, um, looking for somebody who reciprocated that came much, much later. And that flowed from a view of marriage that the church gave me, which was the total self gift we're called to totally give ourselves, which also means receiving the other.

So anyways, I know that's a lot. There's so much on this topic, but that's a real quick. Nutshell about my dating and, and love. Yeah, no, I'd love to have you back another time to dive more into that and some of the current issues that you're seeing, uh, from, you know, your ministry that young adults are dealing with.

Ju just a few points I think you've made that were really, really great, The cynicism and the romanticism. I've often seen that, I've seen children of divorce and I've been one of them either run towards marriage as like the solution to their problems, like you really Well said. Um, or just run away from it because love doesn't last.

And it's such an interesting dynamic to me, and we'll have to talk about that more later. But one really, really important thing that, uh, I wanna talk about a little bit is if you have that mindset that your spouse is gonna fix and heal you, one of the really dangers to that is that when they don't, when you get married and they don't, you may start to think that you married the wrong person, that this isn't right, that you should leave them.

And that's just so, so tragic. So, uh, Yeah, talk about that a little bit if you would. I know, again, it's a big topic, but it's, it's really dangerous, isn't it? No. Let's, let's jump into this cuz this is important. Yeah, no, it's absolutely very important. Um, like you said, like if you put up your, your wife or husband on a pedestal and they let you down, not only will you start thinking like, Oh, maybe I married the wrong person.

But again, you can fall into cism, you can fall into that disillusionment like, Oh, you know, like, I'm just so bad at love. You know, or, or like, love is just not possible, et cetera, rather than seeing a few things. Well, one, it's a normal part of any relationship, to have problems, to have conflict. It's just how do you respond to that?

Do you allow that to grow? That's one just to have a real view or, you know, again, one of the healing things that the Catholic church gave me was a non-romantic view marriage that, you know, marriage like all the sacraments modeled after the cross. There's moments of sorrow, but there's moments of joy that's, that's in the vows.

You know, I promise to love you in good times and bad. You're like, we know that, right? That like in the vows going into that, there's gonna be good times, there's gonna be bad, but I'm gonna love you through it all. Uh, but yet we forget. Right? But, but luckily, you know, I was blessed to get that, that view from the church, that that non-romantic view that yes, is profound joy, but there's gonna be profound sorrow that you have to work through.

So that's one. But going back to the dangers, but also, I, I wanna be nuanced here. The best way to like approach sacrament marriage is to know it is very healing. But when we say that it's not because it's all our spouse all alone. Mm-hmm. , it's healing in so far as it's our spouse, but also our spouse leading us to God.

Because again, there are things that only God can fulfill. Bethany, my wife, there's only things that God can fulfill me. And we're healing and we're fulfilling the other, only insofar as we are also leading them to God. Otherwise, you know, we're treating ourselves like an idol. So it's like, yes, it's healing, but it's healing only insofar as you, you both recognize there's something greater than you at stake in, in this relationship that you need to lead the other person to.

So, and this gets really practical really quickly, but it's like when we have an argument, right? If I approach the relationship as, Okay, this is the person who's gonna fulfill my every need, I'm gonna be devastated by that argument. But on the flip side, if I see like, okay, she's gonna meet my needs more than any other person, but not every single one, there's something that only God can do.

And um, and you know, we need friends, et cetera. Then I approached that argument, not devastated, that we disagree. Like, Oh, okay, you know, it's fine that she doesn't meet every single one of my needs, but let's work through this and we're gonna be okay. Cuz our love is deeper than just, um, our human wills alone.

So it gets really practical and expectations when you approach the healing and fulfillment in marriage is understood as you participating with God. So it's, it's not just your wife, but their participation in God that fulfills and it's, it's God, it's God primarily. So it just releases this huge burden, I think when you, um, go with that mindset versus, again, the danger, like you said, if, if this is the person who's supposed to take care of all my problems, then they don't, then yeah.

I mean, why am I in this marriage? You know? Yeah. Start thinking of all these issues. So, yeah. So we have to have a nuance, right? So the nuance is yes, marriage, parenting is very healing, but it's not everything. Like there has to be a more to our healing. It has to be God. And by the way, when I say God, uh, that's also every other gift he wants to give us too, like friends, family.

So I do believe a spouse is called to meet our needs more than any other person in the world. That is part of the calling, but it's not every need with healing. And, and that's important. And actually the primary person is God, but God working through my spouse to meet my needs, um, I think that's important to recognize.

That's what I mean when I say healing through the marriage, um, because I do. That it's one of the primary ways that God can heal us. Can you know some people, maybe they're never blessed with a marriage and God can still heal you. Like, I mean, God is the primary healer, right? But for a lot of us, and I'm sure you've experienced this too, Joey, that like in a faithful, loving, fruitful marriage, that is extremely healing.

It's just we have to understand that's a gift from God and not mistake it just for our wife, right? The, or just our husband, because we're gonna let him. So we have to have that nuance. Right? Absolutely. And I'm glad, I'm glad you went into that. And like I said, we're gonna have you back, Let's do another show on just love and marriage and all the issues that come along with that.

But you, you hit on so many good points, and I really believe that, uh, one of the, maybe underneath every divorce is this kind of unconscious expectation that our spouse is gonna make us perfectly happy. I, I know there's other reasons and so I'm not, I'm not saying that's the only one, but I think underneath so many divorces, and I would argue the majority, if not all, is that belief.

And then, you know, we get disappointed and we start to do other things that aren't healthy. And it just leads to the breakdown of the marriage. And like I said, there's more to it than just that. But I, I really believe that that's at the root of so many. Yeah, I mean, I, I do think that in a secular society that, you know, has so many idols that human love and relationships are held up as like, The end all, be all answer to our problems.

So I think you're onto something, uh, yeah. To reflect further on. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And we will, we'll talk about this more in the future. Uh, Dan, tell me a little bit about your ministry. So your ministry is called Life Giving Wounds, which great name. Talk a little bit about why did you start it, um, and what do you do to help, uh, adult children of divorce?

Yeah, thanks. So, life giving wounds, um, ministry, which it's a paradox, right? Cuz we don't usually think of our wounds as life giving . And that's intentional because what our ministry hopes to do is that, to draw life from those wounds, from that very thing you might wanna run away from might be your salvation, right?

Why did I start this ministry? Well, really God called me to it more or less dragged me and do it because, uh, I mean I didn't go looking for this. Uh, what was interesting, what I did go looking for is in aftermath, my parents, uh, divorce or separation, then later divorce. I always had that question like, What makes love, love, and last and last in a happy way, right?

Cause you know, I knew love wasn't just staying together, but staying together and happiness, joy, it was always that question. It, it, it sent me on this lifelong search and I'm still have a lot of answers, but I'm still discovering new aspects of the mystery of love. But, um, it led one thing after another, led me to what was called the John PTO Institute for Studies of Marriage and Family.

So fascinating marriage and family. First, I started off, I got a psych degree at Catholic University of America. So I looked at marriage and family from the psychological viewpoint and I'm like, There's, there's gotta be something more. So then I went on to get a theology degree at the John p Altoon Institute for Studies of Marriage and Family.

And, uh, but it was this question of marriage and family, just my own personal search. What, what makes love, love? And it was there just looking at love from every angle, but especially with the light of faith that just drew me to understand marriage in a deeper way and to try to live it in my life. But, so I wanted to strengthen marriage and family.

I had that deep calling, which came again through the wound. I had this clear mission through the wound to strengthen marriage and family, but also live a strong marriage and family. Still to this day, the greatest accomplishment I wanna be remembered for is not life giving wounds, but having an awesome marriage.

And that's still this day. That's, that's my number one goal. Beautiful. And um, so I wanted to do that. And then just, it happened to be, so I wasn't really looking to do specific ministry for adult divorce, so that was part of my story. So I was always attentive to the needs of d divorce and helping em in various ministries like men's ministry, young adult ministry.

But when I was at the institute, Well, I got asked to get a PhD, which I thought was crazy. Uh, because I come from blue collar family, nobody's got a PhD in my me family. So I was like, Really? You want me to like pursue this? Okay, God, I'll, I'll give it a try. Right. Um, but you know, you can probably even tell just talking, I have a very blue collar, you know, background.

I've never lost that route. So I'm like, Wow, you want me to try to get a PhD? So I went to get a PhD and as I was there the institute was reflecting on the need for pastoral ministry for adult children, divorce and separation. And I just happened to be there, had this background getting PhD, got asked to be a part of this.

Um, trying to develop pastoral ministry for Donald Trump divorce cuz there's nothing in the church at the pastoral level in diocese and parishes. And they wanted to do something about it. I'm like, heck yeah, I wanna do that too. But I wasn't looking for it. It just kind of came to me when I was at the institute, got involved in it.

Next thing I know, I'm running the first retreat. In 2015, and then things just sort of took off from there. I mean, again, I wasn't looking for it, but I knew the needs of adult children divorce and then God put this in my path at the right time, and it was just so clear that this, this was a calling, this was a need.

And then started doing these retreats. Then I, I gave a talk at a National Association of Catholic Family Life ministers who said, you know, other diocese need this too. And then I founded life giving wounds to spread these retreats, but also support groups. We also do consultations for leaders to help them be more attuned in how they can accompany, um, adults and divorce separation in their ministries.

Uh, we try to offer some online resources, although, you know, you're doing more so I try to point 'em to you and other people. I have a curated list of resources on our website, life giving wounds.org and, um, it came outta my wound to want to help others because there was nothing at the pastoral level.

But it was also God finding me at the right time in the right place. So I'm, I'm very aware of the providence of it, and I'm also just aware of the humility needed because not only was this a joint project from the beginning with a lot of people from the institute, but also I see my role as creating pastoral ministry and diocese and parishes to create teams, teams of people who are on fire for Christ, who want to help heal these souls that are really suffering and neglected and are underserved.

And I just wanna do something about it. So, Yeah, it's just, it's just amazing. It's still amazing to me that I'm here doing this podcast with you, and this ministry has grown. I, I still, I marvel, I marvel at God's work, so, Yeah. No, I love it. And, uh, one question. If, you know, years down the road, you look back and you look at your ministry, uh, what would make it a big success?

Like what, what's, what I'm getting at here is what's the ultimate goal? Like what, what do you, what's the end goal of everything that you're doing? And, and you touched on that a little bit, but I wanna draw it out. Well, obviously the end goal is to, Well, okay, so I called life giving wounds because of, I love this verse and scripture by his wounds, you are healed from first letter of Peter.

I mean, it's to allow Christ wounds to heal others who have the same, He, you know, same cross. And so for that matter, it's already a success. And I feel like I'm playing with house money, um, now. But, uh, it, you know, it would be for me that the church. is more attuned to the suffering and gets better at accompanying and healing children from these situations.

Cause I don't think we're doing a great job. So it's, it's really the end goal is not even to have a standalone ministry, although I want that, but you know, everybody from youth ministers to marriage prep, to social justice types, to everybody to be more attuned and to help these folks. We all have a part to play cuz you know, I believe the deepest level of healing is sharing one's faith.

And by doing that is healing. We all have a part to play and, and helping to heal. We just have to be more attuned to those who suffer in this way and to break that silence so we talked about earlier, Um, and to say, you know what? That's not okay. I'm sorry that you suffered like that. How can I help you and just listen?

But I think on a more practical level, what I would love. But it's totally up to God. And you know, he surprises me and who knows what he wants. I would love personally every diocese, as many parishes, as many campus ministries as possible to have dedicated pastoral ministry to adult and divorce and separation.

Cuz I do think they need to have that specific time of healing with those who share similar wounds. There's something that's really important about that. There's something important about the in person community and I've noticed in the diocese that have embraced our ministries, it starts changing the local culture.

When you have an in person pastoral ministry, although other ministries around you pro-life, uh, marriage prep, they start changing. They start referring you, they start interacting with you and learning about the issues, learning about the pain and how they can help. So I want a church that can heal better.

That's basically it. I want a church that can heal souls with the wounds of Christ better. And whatever form that takes, so be it, you know? And, um, I just want to contribute to that. And I, you know, the, to me the success is not having my name out there, not damn to me, the success is every healed soul, every person that is touched because of some indirect thing that I did, or one of the teams did, or one of the people did.

You know, It's, it's, um, it can't be quantified, but it, that's sort of, those are my end goals, you know? And also supporting people like you. I mean, we're all working on it together. It, it's, it's, um, it's just to create a church that's better at healing, healing soul. That's the thing. I mean, the thing that breaks my heart the most, I think in doing all this ministry and in my own life, was a church that has said and done nothing for people.

So many people, especially young adults, who come to me and said, you know, nobody from my church reached out to. Hmm. That breaks my heart. That breaks my heart, and nobody reached out to them during their deepest level of pain or after. And we wonder why so many people leave, especially in young adulthood.

That breaks my heart. I want to change that. I want a church that's better at healing because that's the healing that Christ expects of us. That's the healing he talks about by his wounds. He wants to heal all Donald and divorce separation, but we have to say yes to that. We need more people to say yes to that.

and have less people who get into young hood and beyond and said, You know what? Nobody from my church even reached out to me about this. Hmm. That is what I'm about. That's what I'm trying to do. That's why I'm trying to noble other people and other ministries that are willing to have that same vision.

Hmm. Wow. So good. And you clearly have a heart for this. And one of the things, uh, I think is, is just so beautiful is how Yeah. It's just, this is a just cause and you're, you just want to, you know, fight this battle in whatever way possible. And we're, we're rooting for you and I appreciate the, you know, the support and return and.

Yeah, Catholic leaders out there. Anyone who works on a diocesan level, uh, in, in parishes. Uh, think about how you can implement this in your diocese and you can contact Dan. We'll give you info on that in the show notes and then at the end here. But, um, but yeah, there, there's such a potential here. There's such a need.

Uh, and, and it's very clear it's anyone who's not aware of it. If you just look into this for like five seconds, you'll realize how much of a need there is here. And so, Dan, you guys are doing great things and just really happy to support you guys. And for you, one of the ways that you, uh, help children of divorce when really practical ways you offer retreats, like you mentioned.

And so just wanna talk about those really briefly. What happens on those retreats? Start with that and, and I have another question. Well, it's a time of personal reflection. You get a time to journal, you get a time to talk in small groups about this pain. But, uh, you know, it, it is a Catholic retreat.

Anybody's welcome. Um, anybody's welcome. Christian, you're far away, but I do wanna let you know it is Catholic. So we do some Catholic practices, but I'm happy to walk you through what those are, why we do that. And just quietly can pray during those times, even if you don't understand it there. So there's, there's also the sacraments, of course.

There's the sacrament eu. , there is, um, times of prayer. Uh, we, you know, we introduce them to some Catholic devotions as well, which again, I'm happy to explain for those who don't know, like the Divine Mercy Chapel. Well, so the heart of the retreat is to try to spiritually heal. We're, we're not, We focus a little bit on the psychological side of things, some dynamics, but it's primarily to increase your faith, hope and love.

So it's to, you know, help you spiritually heal to encounter Christ. And so we go through our father prayer actually. And how does our father prayer relate to different wounds we might have in the aftermath that our parents divorce, like the wound of identity, our wound, a relationship with God I wound to love and how we approach intimate relationships.

And we also address the topic of forgiveness, anger. Anxiety and also what's the meaning of Christian suffering and then, and perhaps most importantly, the joy, the joy that we can experience in our life. So, um, those are some of the topics that, some of the dynamic of the retreat. You can find more information about the retreated life giving wounds.org, but overall, it's a place to honor your ones and you can make the retreat multiple times.

I often tell people when they make the. If all you do this weekend is just begin to grieve, that's great. That's, that's, that's a great first step. That's all that some people do, you know, their first time. It just opens up a place in person to, to grieve. Yeah. I was curious, um, what are some of the benefits that people have, uh, walked away with from after attending the, the retreat?

Yeah. Well, thanks for asking. I think instead of me saying, I'd like to just share with you some of the testimonies that I received from people. Like, here's, here's what some past participants have said. One man said this retreat was such a beautiful experience. Uh, the retreat team is so humble and caring.

Obviously parts of the retreat were painful, but everything pointed to understanding that pain and healing with God's grace. So again, it's to give insight to better understand the wounds that people have and to un uncover the hidden wound. To name them. Um, another person talks about the community. She says, quote.

While the retreat was very difficult because of the topic and memories, it was also very healing to see the community see that there are other people out there who have been similarly wounded. And it's not just me. It was incredibly beautiful. You know, other people have said that it's deep in their faith with God.

Obviously that's what that person was getting at the community. The insight, I love what this other person said. Uh, just to share another one, I came to the retreat thinking I might get one or two things from it, but I'm leaving with a whole new perspective on how to live my life. And with a bigger heart for my family.

Mm-hmm. . And that's another thing to have bigger heart for your family. I, I've had retreats who finally, it, it enables 'em to get over the hump to say yes to engagement and marriage from this. But I think the point is that there's something that this retreat has to offer everybody, no matter what level of healing you have.

And it's to set you on a journey. I mean, one, there no illusions that, you know, one retreat weekend's gonna change your life, uh, completely. Right? Uh, but we do hope it sends you on a, uh, it's like a spark for a deeper journey of healing. And it, it can be truly life changing. I myself was a recipient of a life changing retreat that changed the trajectory of my life in high school.

And I've seen this happen to other people. And I hope it happens for you too. But no matter what, uh, there's just so many graces. We're humbled to hear from participants often, many years later too. Um, from it. So there, there's a whole lot of things, but if I have to boil 'em down, what we consistently hear is insight community and deep in faith.

That's beautiful. And I, as you were talking, I was thinking one of the most practical benefits, I would say is that they just have the time and a place and the support to process a lot of the pain and the problems in their life and kind of dive into, like you said, the grieving process and things like that.

Because so often I think, uh, it's so easy to just go through life on autopilot and life is just so busy. Uh, it's easy not to make healing a priority. And so by doing one of these weekend retreats, cuz they're, they're what, three days long, is that right? Yeah, typically three days. We do have a two day adapted version cause some diocese have asked us for shorter, so.

It can be adopted. Yeah. Yeah. But it's just, that's such a benefit in and of itself. It's like, yeah, can you do some of this on your own? Possibly. Um, but you may not make the time for it, or you may not have the support, or you may not, uh, you know, have the content to, to go through. And so it's, yeah, I can recommend these more.

I haven't been on them, uh, yet myself, but I, a lot of people I trust, uh, have, and they say really good things about it. So guys, definitely encourage you to go. Um, Dan is life giving wounds is where they can learn, uh, more about it. Life giving wounds.org, not.com. Dot org. Uh, is that the best place for 'em to sign up and learn more about it?

Yeah. Life Giving wounds.org has our calendar with all the different retreats, and I'm really excited to announce that next year we're gonna be all over America, all four corners. Uh, we're gonna be on the west coast, the east coast, down south, and Midwest. Um, you can find out about that. You can also, we just launched a Facebook page, uh, Life Giving Wounds, uh, Facebook page.

You can also see all the different retreats on there. And as we set up local chapters, we're gonna publish when they start running retreats as well. Right now we're in four diocese. Next year we're gonna be in nine diocese, and each diocese is gonna continue doing a retreat in a support group after the fact.

So we'll keep posting and there's gonna be more and more opportunities for people to go. Uh, but yeah, best places, life giving wounds.org or a Facebook page. You can also like and follow us will put all the announcements up as soon as we get them on the Facebook page. And you can also email me at dan life giving wounds.org.

Uh, as a final word, what, what would you say to someone who, uh, feels very broken and stuck in life, uh, teenager or young adult, especially because of their parents' divorce? What words of encouragement would you give to them? Healing is real. But healing can only happen with God. Don't run away from God, but run toward him.

You won't be disappointed. You'll be surprised. He wants to fill your wounds. He wants to fill those wounds with love, faith, hope, and Christ. So please, brothers and sisters out there, even if you're pushing God away, give him a second chance. Run toward him, please. You won't regret it, I promise you. Dan, thank you so much for, for being here, for everything you're doing with your ministry and just, uh, everything you've done to yeah, become the man that you are.

It's inspiring. So thank you so much. Thank you, Joe. You rock. You got a great ministry, folks. Keep listening and restored and keep following Joey. He's got a lot of gifts himself and I'm inspired by you and I admire you as well, Joey. So thank you for having. Lots of good takeaways. I'll just mention one. I especially love this line that Dr.

Daniel said. He said, For me, healing is not the absence of pain, but rather how I respond to that pain and I respond completely different. Now, I don't get stuck in it. Love that. If you wanna attend one of Dr. Daniel's retreats, uh, here's how you do that. Go to life giving wounds.org. not.com. Dot org slash recovering.

Dash origins. Again, that's life giving wounds.org/recovering-origins. And on that page you can read about the retreat, get a little bit more info about it, and then at the bottom you'll see a button that says Attend a retreat. Once you click that, You'll see a list of the retreats offered, uh, their locations, dates, and so on.

And you can, uh, on that page, you can click to, to register. And I mentioned a discount code at the beginning. Uh, Dr. Daniel is generously offering a $20 discount for anyone who, who mentions the Restored podcast when they're signing up for the, uh, 20, 20 February or April retreats that are, uh, hosted in Silver Spring, Maryland.

Little bonus for you guys there, so hope you take advantage of that. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash nine. That's the number nine restored ministry.com/nine. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful, go ahead and subscribe and share this podcast with someone you know who could use it.

Always remember, you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

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#008: The Hardest Part of My Life | Miranda Rodriguez

What’s been the hardest part of your life? For Miranda, it has been navigating her parents’ divorce.

Miranda Rodriguez.jpg

What’s been the hardest part of your life? For Miranda, it has been navigating her parents’ divorce.

If you read her article “Dear Divorce” you already know how clearly and beautifully she articulates the pain and the struggles she’s faced. But this episode isn’t just about the pain and struggles.

We talk about her #1 method of healing, the awareness she’s developed about herself, and the fact that nobody can heal alone. We all need help.

Share your story using our online tool:

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Coming Up: Episode #009: A Retreat for Adult Children of Divorce | Dr. Daniel Meola

Thanks for listening! Our next episode features a retreat for adult children of divorce and the story of the man who started it.

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#007: 9 Common Struggles of Adult Children of Divorce - Part 3 | LeeAnne Abel

Part 3 of 3. When your parents separate or divorce, it hurts. It brings a lot of pain, problems, and struggles into your life. But what are some of those common struggles? That's the topic of today's show.

We discuss 9 common struggles that children of divorce typically face based on a survey of 350 adult children of divorce and some tactics to deal with them.

LeeAnne Abel.jpg

When your parents separate or divorce, it hurts. It brings a lot of pain, problems, and struggles into your life. But what are some of those common struggles? That's the topic of today's show.

We discuss 9 common struggles that children of divorce typically face based on a survey of 350 adult children of divorce conducted by LeeAnne Abel.

Throughout the conversation, we offer practical advice on how to deal with those struggles. In addition, this episode will help you understand yourself if your parents are separated or divorced. If you love or lead anyone from a broken family, it will also help you understand and love or lead them better.

Part 3 of 3. Part 1 is here and Part 2 is here.

eBook: 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness

“Mom told my siblings and me that Dad would no longer live with us. In fact, they were getting divorced... Immediately, I froze. I went numb. The 11 year old Joey couldn’t handle that news.”
— 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness
 

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Coming Up: Episode #008: The Hardest Part of My Life | Miranda Rodriguez

Thanks for listening! Our next episode features the story of Miranda Rodriguez. She wrote the very moving article Dear Divorce.

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#006: 9 Common Struggles of Adult Children of Divorce - Part 2 | LeeAnne Abel

Part 2 of 3. When your parents separate or divorce, it hurts. It brings a lot of pain, problems, and struggles into your life. But what are some of those common struggles? That's the topic of today's show.

We discuss 9 common struggles that children of divorce typically face based on a survey of 350 adult children of divorce and some tactics to deal with them.

LeeAnne Abel.jpg

When your parents separate or divorce, it hurts. It brings a lot of pain, problems, and struggles into your life. But what are some of those common struggles? That's the topic of today's show.

We discuss 9 common struggles that children of divorce typically face based on a survey of 350 adult children of divorce conducted by LeeAnne Abel.

Throughout the conversation, we offer practical advice on how to deal with those struggles. In addition, this episode will help you understand yourself if your parents are separated or divorced. If you love or lead anyone from a broken family, it will also help you understand and love or lead them better.

Part 2 of 3. Part 1 is here and Part 3 is here. Enter your email below to be notified.

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Coming Up: Episode #007: 9 Common Struggles of Adult Children of Divorce - Part 3 | LeeAnne Abel

Thanks for listening! Our next episode is part of 3 of the 9 common struggles of adult children of divorce.

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#005: 9 Common Struggles of Adult Children of Divorce - Part 1 | LeeAnne Abel

Part 1 of 3. When your parents separate or divorce, it hurts. It brings a lot of pain, problems, and struggles into your life. But what are some of those common struggles? That's the topic of today's show.

We discuss 9 common struggles that children of divorce typically face based on a survey of 350 adult children of divorce and some tactics to deal with them.

LeeAnne Abel.jpg

When your parents separate or divorce, it hurts. It brings a lot of pain, problems, and struggles into your life. But what are some of those common struggles? That's the topic of today's show.

We discuss 9 common struggles that children of divorce typically face based on a survey of 350 adult children of divorce conducted by LeeAnne Abel.

Throughout the conversation, we offer practical advice on how to deal with those struggles. In addition, this episode will help you understand yourself if your parents are separated or divorced. If you love or lead anyone from a broken family, it will also help you understand and love or lead them better.

Part 1 of 3. Part 2 is here and part 3 goes live Dec 26. Enter your email below to be notified.

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Coming Up: Episode #006: 9 Common Struggles of Adult Children of Divorce - Part 2 | LeeAnne Abel

Thanks for listening! Our next episode is part of 2 of the 9 common struggles of adult children of divorce.

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#004: 7 Tips to Navigate the Holidays for Children of Divorce

The holidays are a challenging time for most children of divorced or separated parents. Most of us feel alone, lost, and uncertain of how to navigate the holidays with our broken families.

If you can relate, we made this episode for you. In it, we give 7 tips on how to navigate the holidays so you can enjoy them and hopefully, avoid all the drama.

The holidays are a challenging time for most children of divorced or separated parents. Most of us feel alone, lost, and uncertain of how to navigate the holidays with our broken families.

Instead of experiencing the joy of the holidays, we often feel overwhelmed, frustrated, embarrassed, and sad.

If you can relate, we made this episode for you. In it, we give 7 tips on how to navigate the holidays so you can enjoy them and hopefully, avoid all the drama.

The advice is from a survey of older children of divorce combined with Joey’s advice on the topic.​

If you love or lead someone with divorced or separated parents, share this episode with them.

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Coming Up: Episode #005: 9 Common Struggles of Adult Children of Divorce - Part 1 | LeeAnne Abel

Thanks for listening! Our next episode features speaker, author, and leader LeeAnne Abel. We talk about the 9 common struggles that children of divorce face and some tactics of how to deal with them.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

The holidays can be a challenging time for so many people, for so many reasons. But this is especially true for people whose parents are divorced or separated, particularly if they're teens or young adults. Most of them feel alone. They feel lost, and they feel uncertain of how to navigate the holiday.

Given their family situation and worse of all, they're vividly reminded during the holidays of how broken their families are. I remember one of the first holidays that my parents were separated as a boy. I felt kind of awkward. I felt kind of embarrassed about what was going on with my family. I think most of all, I felt sad.

I was sad because this was one of the first holidays where both of my parents were not there, and so I remember spending most of that holiday, most of that Christmas in one of the bedroom. Playing video games. If the holidays are a struggle for you, this episode is for you. In it, I'm gonna give seven tips, seven practical tips on how to navigate the holidays if your parents are separated or divorced.

And this isn't just my advice. I surveyed older children of divorce and ask them what they would say to you if they could speak to you. And so I'm gonna take their advice. I'm gonna combine it with my own thoughts on. And that's where the seven tips come from. Keep listening.

Welcome to the Restored podcast, helping you cope and heal after your parents' divorce or separation so you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode four and I wanna just dive right in. If you're someone who doesn't come from a divorce or Ed family, you may not understand why the holiday.

Can be so challenging for people like us. And so I wanna spend a little bit of time on that. I wanna explain some of the reasons why it can be so challenging, and certainly there are many reasons, but these are just a few. Like I said at the top of the show, it's a clear reminder that your family is broken and your parents are not together.

For most of us, we, we have fond memories of holidays, and when your parents separate a divorce, those kind of holidays just don't happen again. Those memories, sadly, will never be made again. On a practical level, it's just challenging. Logistically, you could have twice as many parties to attend, or if your parents are remarried, maybe even more.

If you're married, of course you have your spouse's family, and if you have children, you may feel even more pressure to bring the kids around to see your relatives and your parents. An obvious reason is the possibility for drama intention. Perhaps there's already drama intention to begin with. I know if it hasn't been long since the divorce was finalized.

Maybe you're in the midst of it all. There can be a lot of tension, not only between your parents, uh, but also between your relatives. Some of your relatives may be speaking bad about one of your parents, uh, and vice versa. Like I said, I remember just feeling sort of awkward about everything that was going down, and I knew some of my relatives didn't think very highly of my other parent, and so there was just a lot of tension and drama at some of those parties.

And one of the last reasons is that it's difficult to make everyone happy and, and I don't think you should, and we'll get into that in a little bit. But it can be challenging because mom may want you over at this time. Dad may want you over at this time. Dad may not wanna see mom, but mom may be okay with seeing Dad or like I've heard in some families, Mom and dad may still do holidays together, which can bring its own type of challenge.

Relatives can be upset that you didn't go to this party or that party, or you didn't stay as long because you were leaving to, to go to the other side of the family. And so, and at the end of the day, it leaves you feeling frustrated. Overwhelmed. Embarrassed, like I said, and I think kind of hopeless and just sad.

Just sad that your family is the way it is, that your family is broken, that your parents are not together. Even if I always say this, even if it was necessary for them to break apart, it's still a tragedy. The first thing I wanna say is if you feel any of those feelings, There's nothing wrong with you.

You're not weird, and you're not alone in feeling that writer and psychiatrist, Victor Frankel said that an abnormal response to an abnormal event is normal. In other words, when your parents separate or divorce, that's an abnormal event. It's not supposed to happen. And so if you feel anxious, if you feel sad, if you feel embarrassed, overwhelmed, frustrated by the divorce, but especially about navigating the holidays, that's.

And I just want you to know that this isn't right. The holidays should be a time for celebration, not drama. And I'm sorry if in your family there's a lot of tension, there's a lot of drama, and you really struggle to even attend these parties and especially struggle to find any joy in these holidays. So faced with all this, what do we do?

How do we navigate the holidays so we can enjoy them and hopefully avoid all the drama? The first tip is to set and enforce boundaries. Now, boundaries you could think of as like property lines. On this side of the line is me and what I like and what I'm willing to do, and on that side of the line is what I don't like and what I'm not willing to do.

It's out of bounds. Again, it's basically saying, I'm willing to do this. I'm not willing to do that. A few examples are telling your parents that I will not talk to you about the other parent. Another example is saying, I will spend the holidays with both of you, and then maybe laying down some rules saying, This is how much time I'll spend here.

This is how much time I'll spend there. And remember, it's okay to say. No, it's okay to say, I don't wanna do that. I'm not willing to do that. I'm not willing to talk about that, whatever it may be. Once you set the boundaries, you have to enforce those boundaries. If someone steps over one of those boundaries, you have to enforce it.

You have to show them that if these boundaries are not followed, there are consequences. And what you're basically saying, In enforcing your boundaries is that I am not a doormat. These are my rules, and if you follow them, we can have a relationship. I'll come to that party and so. If you don't, then you are self-selecting to not have a relationship with me.

Remember, you set the boundary and if they don't follow it, they're the ones making the choice not to have the relationship, not to have you present at the holiday, not to have you present at the party. It's not your fault if they don't follow the boundary that you set. You're not doing it to them. They are doing it to themselves.

Of course, as part of boundaries, there's likely to be some drama, and so just don't engage in that drama. Underneath this advice for boundaries, there's a few other important points, and one of them is it's not your job to please everyone. You're not responsible for pleasing your parents or your family or your relatives.

You have no responsibility to, to make everyone happy, and so on a, on a practical point, don't feel forced to involve strangers. In your life, whether that's, you know, your dad's girlfriend or your mom's boyfriend or someone else, you shouldn't feel forced to involve them in your life. It should be something that's natural and gradual.

Remember that you're not responsible to parent your parents. You are not your parents' crutch. You're not what holds them up. And don't let your parents emotionally rely on you. I know that sounds like tough love, but I mean it, it's really not good for them or for you if mom or dad are emotionally relying on you, they're opening up to you in a way that just is too much.

They shouldn't be coming to their child with all of their emotional baggage and emotional issues if they do. Kindly and firmly redirect them to their support network. And what I mean by support network is their friends, their family, maybe their siblings, or an aunt or an uncle or their mom or their dad.

Your grandparents could be a counselor, a pastor. Someone like that, they need help, but not from you. And so it's actually more loving for you to redirect them to someone who could actually help them and support them than to keep listening to them and allow them to use you as their emotional support.

And so you could say something simply like this, mom or dad, I love you. I care about you. I want what's best for you, but I can't be your emotional support. You need to go to your friends, to your counselor, to your family. To a pastor and lean on them, Not me. I wanna help you, but I have to help you in another way.

And one of the last points when it comes to boundaries is protect yourself from manipulators. And I'm not condemning parents here and saying that your parents are automatically manipulators, but if there's a manipulator in your family, whether it's your parents or someone else, be aware of that. Protect yourself from anyone who might want to use the holiday celebration or the holiday.

Spirit to take advantage of you or to back you in a corner, so to speak. In any way, don't let anyone use fear, a sense of obligation or guilt to manipulate you. So just keep an eye out for this. Recognize the manipulation, and just distance yourself from that person. It may mean confronting them and telling them, No, I'm not allowing you to manipulate me like this.

But it also may just mean getting out of that situation because you know that they just won't listen to what you. The next tip is to communicate ahead of time. There's a few important points here, and one of them is that you have a right to express your feelings. Be honest about your feelings and the needs that you have.

In fact, if you're at that point, I encourage you to talk to your parents, sit them down, talk to each of them, and tell them I love you both. But it can be very hard around the holidays to please you both and to not offend you. So I need you to please understand my decisions, my boundaries, and please understand that the tension in our family makes it difficult to actually enjoy the holidays.

But even if you're not there yet, I encourage you to set expectations early by communicating to both of your parents. You could tell your mom, Mom, I will be coming to your party for this long and then leaving to go to dad's party. The reason to do this is so that there's no surprises when the holiday shows up.

Now I realize if you live at home, This can be especially difficult. You may not have as much power to just leave or tell mom or dad that you're not coming to the party, but even in that case, I encourage you to communicate with mom, with dad, and tell them what you're comfortable with, what you're not comfortable with, and my hope is that they'll hear you out and they'll love and care about you enough to understand where you're coming from and give you that respect and that freedom.

That you need. Tip three, take ownership. You can choose how to respond even in the midst of the worst situations. I know it's difficult, Trust me. I know it's difficult, but this is absolutely true. You can choose how to respond even in midst, all the tension and the drama during the holidays. When I say take ownership, I mean do what you can with what you're given.

When it comes to traditions, some of the old traditions that you're used to may die, sadly, but you can make your own traditions, especially if you have your own family, you can spend. The holiday with someone else, with a friend or a family. If your family right now is toxic for you, and if you spend the holiday with another family, I really encourage you to be intentional about that and to choose a family that really exemplifies it shows what it means to be a true, good family.

And as the years go on, keep in mind that you get to make your own family. You get to choose your own family. And again, if you're married or moving towards marriage, just focus on your. This could be a good time to think about what you want for your future family or your current family compared to what you have right now in your immediate family.

And a practical tip is to just plan things around the holidays that can distract from the drama and the tension. An example of that could be going to a movie or doing some sort of activity, whether it. Bowling or glow in the dark, mini golf, whatever it may be, some maybe activity that takes away the tension and the focus on conversation.

The fourth tip is to be virtuous. Vir, of course, is those good habits that we have and the disposition that we have toward what is good. And so give your parents some grace during the holidays. Just understand that they are navigating the holidays too, as someone whose family is broken as well. So be polite, be kind, be loving.

But remember, I'm not saying to just be nice and be a doormat. Stand up for yourself. Set those boundaries. But of course, be loving. Be virtuous. Tip five. Have a plan to take care of yourself. Think ahead about what could happen during the holidays. Prepare for different conversations. You're gonna have, I know this sounds extreme, but seriously, think about, I'm gonna be talking to this family member.

I'm probably gonna be in this situation and this conversation. Think ahead. Think about what you'll say, what you'll do in that situation, and be prepared to handle the difficult emotions that come along during the holidays. If you're from a broken. In my life, whenever I've been faced with a lot of stress or, or difficult emotions, especially as a teenager, I was always tempted to seek comfort in unhealthy things like pornography.

And I know other people struggle with things like alcohol or drugs or binging on social media, overeating, so many different unhealthy ways of coping. And so think ahead to that. How will I be tempted in the midst of that tension, that trauma, that stress? And then think about ways in which you can respond in a healthy way that may be going on a run or spending time with a friend or a good movie.

It's really helpful throughout the holidays if you can have a friend or maybe a couple friends who you can talk to about everything with your family. Don't keep it inside, get it out of you. Find that support and I'm gonna tell you how at Restored, we have an opportunity for you to join our private safe online community so that you can do just that.

You can find support with people who've been through the things that you're going through, and who in fact are going. The things that you are going through, uh, stay tuned. I'll tell you about that at the end. Another great way to get things out of your head, out of your chest is just to journal about them.

And this doesn't have to be in a paper notebook. It could be on your phone, it could be in a recording app. You can just say it out loud. It doesn't matter. The point is that you get it out of your head. And whatever happens through the holidays, learn from it. Look at it as an opportunity to be better, and whatever comes up inside of you, whatever emotions or memories come up inside of you, work through those.

Don't shove them away, but pay attention to that. Tip number six. Focus on the celebration. It can be so easy when there's so much drama and tension to forget about the reason that you're celebrating that holiday. And so try to remember, try to think of the meaning of the holiday and the United States. Of course, we have Thanksgiving, so think through maybe the history and the meaning of Thanksgiving and think about what you're thankful.

Again, even in the midst of a really bad situation, look for what you are thankful for, cuz there's always something that you can be thankful for. Even if it's as simple as the food or your friends who you can talk to about this, or if you love traveling, whatever might be, find something that you can be thankful for.

If you're Christian, of course you celebrate Christmas, but maybe you're Jewish, so maybe you celebrate Hanukkah, whatever it may be, remember the meaning of the holiday. Don't lose the meaning. In the midst of the drama and try to enjoy it. Enjoy the little things, and keep in mind that you may need to lower your expectations of what the holidays are going to be like.

Especially if your parents' separation or divorce is pretty fresh, you may not feel safe or secure at your family parties. And I'm sorry that's the case, but it is the reality and I just wanna warn you of. On a personal note, there are very few places that I feel safe and secure, and so just be prepared for that.

And don't be afraid to, to take a break. You know, help with clean up, help with setting the table, help with whatever someone may need help with. If you need to step away, go for a little walk step outside. And do things you enjoy. Play a game, play a board game. Play a card game, watch a movie, watch sports, whatever it might be.

Do something that again, takes the focus off of any drum or attention and helps you to enjoy the actual holiday. Tip number seven is to ask God for help. And if you're not religious, I'm not trying to stuff God in your face. For anyone who is religious, rely on God in the midst of these situations. If you're Christian, bring Jesus with you into the family party.

You don't have to do this alone. And if everything is a complete mess in your family, uh, first I'm so sorry that that's happening, but I want you to trust that God is not finished. He does not want this to be happening to you. I'm so convinced of that. I struggle with that for a long time thinking, God, why would you allow this to happen to me and to my family?

And that's a huge topic that we're gonna tackle later, but I just want you to know that God is not a sadistic God. He doesn't enjoy watching us hurt. He hates it too. He doesn't like us to suffer, but he does allow it. And that's something that we're gonna be talking about in the future. We'll talk about free will, and we'll talk about how God can bring good even out of the worst situations, even if it's hard to believe.

And I want to end with a quote from Saint Mother Therea of Calcutta, and it's a beautiful quote, and if you're not familiar with Mother Teresa, I think most people are, but she was a religious sister who served in India and really the worst part of India, and she would just serve the poor was so much love and so much joy, and she didn't just capture the Christian world, she captured the entire world secular.

Religious world, even atheist, just had so much respect for this woman. This woman who had so much love in her heart. So much joy and so much wisdom, which I wanna share with you because I think that it is applicable to the situation that we find ourselves in when it comes to navigating the holidays as children of divorce or ed parents, she said people are often unreasonable, irrational.

And self-centered, forgive them anyway. If you are kind people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives. Be kind anyway. If you are successful, you will win some unfaithful friends and some genuine enemies succeed anyway. If you are honest and sincere. People may deceive you. Be honest and sincere anyway.

What you spend years creating, others could destroy overnight, create anyway. If you find sincerity and happiness, some may be jealous. Be happy anyway. The good you do today will often be forgotten. Do good. Anyway, give the best you have and it will never be enough. Give your best anyway, in the final analysis, it is between you and God.

It was never between you and them anyway.

I hope these tips have been helpful for you. I just wanna name the seven tips again in case it's helpful. Tip one is to set and enforce boundaries. Tip two is to communicate ahead of time. Tip three is to take ownership. Tip four, be virtuous. Tip five, have a plan to take care of yourself. Tip six, focus on the celebration.

And tip seven, ask God for help. Like I mentioned during the show at Restored, we have a private online community, and the main benefit of the online community is that you can speak freely. In a private setting to people who also come from separated or divorced families. If nothing else, they can just encourage you and listen to you.

But often what I've seen in our community is that people will actually give some wisdom and some guidance on what you're dealing with, and you'll be challenged to grow into a better, stronger person. And even if you're not interested in sharing a lot in our community, You can still benefit from hearing what others are going through so that you know that you are not alone.

Now, if you wanna join our private online community, you can go to restored ministry.com/community. Again, that's restored ministry ministry singular.com. Slash community, again, restored ministry.com/community. When you go on there, you're gonna fill out a form, submit the form, and we'll get back to you, uh, with the next steps and welcome you to our community.

If you'd like to access the show notes for this show, you can go to restored ministry.com/four. That's the number four. Again, restored ministry. Ministry is singular.com/four restored. ministry.com/four. Big thanks to everyone who filled out the survey. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and taking the time to do that.

Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful, please subscribe. And the reason to subscribe is not only to be notified when new episodes go live, but also it helps us get more visibility on the different podcasting apps so that we can help more people. And please share this with someone that you know who could really use this.

During the holidays, and please know that I'm thinking of you. I'm praying for you. I really wish you the best this holiday season. I hope you can navigate that holidays successfully so you can enjoy them hopefully without all the drama. And always remember, you're not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person you were born to.

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#003: How Craving Wholeness Motivated Her to Heal | Beth Sri

Beth’s parents divorced when she was very young. However, she still remembers the cardboard boxes and feeling confused about her dad leaving.

Over the years, she saw her parents’ divorce impact her in various ways. She recalls looking for external approval, feeling lost, and the challenge of constantly navigating between two homes.

Beth Sri.jpg

Beth’s parents divorced when she was very young. However, she still remembers the cardboard boxes and feeling confused about her dad leaving.

Over the years, she saw her parents’ divorce impact her in various ways. She recalls looking for external approval, feeling lost, and the challenge of constantly navigating between two homes. She also shares what she has done to heal and how her life is better now because of it.

By listening to Beth’s story, you’ll find that no matter how broken you feel or messy life becomes, there’s always hope. She also shares some practical tips on how you can heal too.

At the end of the show, we introduce a free online tool for you to use at RestoredMinistry.com/story

If you love or lead someone with divorced or separated parents, this episode will help you to better understand them and how to help them.

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Coming Up: Episode #004: 7 Tips to Navigate the Holidays for Children of Divorce

Thanks for listening! Our next episode features 7 tips on how to navigate the holidays for children of divorce, so they can enjoy them and hopefully avoid all the drama.

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Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

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#002: How 70 Adult Children of Divorce Have Suffered | Leila Miller

When your parents separate or divorce, it hurts and you feel alone. You feel like nobody can understand what you are going through.

At Restored, we know how that feels. But we want you to know this: You’re actually not alone.

Leila Miller.jpg

When your parents separate or divorce, it hurts and you feel alone. You feel like nobody can understand what you are going through.

At Restored, we know how that feels. But we want you to know this: You’re actually not alone.

To prove that, we talk with speaker and author Leila Miller about her book Primal Loss, which features 70 stories from children of divorce. We uncover the shocking ways divorce has affected them, even years later as adults, and some practical advice to deal with it.

If you love or lead someone with divorced or separated parents, Leila offers some practical advice for you too.

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Coming Up: Episode #003: How Craving Wholeness Motivated Her to Heal | Beth Sri

Thanks for listening! Our next episode features mother, wife, and leader Beth Sri. She shares her story as a child of divorce, her process of healing, and the transformation she experienced.

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Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

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#001: How Restored Helps Children of Divorce

Are your parents divorced? Are they separated? Has that brought a lot of pain and problems into your life? Do you feel alone and unsure of how to deal with it all?

If you answered yes, the Restored podcast is for you.

Are your parents divorced? Are they separated? Has that brought a lot of pain and problems into your life? Do you feel alone and unsure of how to deal with it all?

If you answered yes, the Restored podcast is for you. In this intro episode, we'll talk about how your parents' divorce is still affecting you, what you can do about it, and how this podcast exists to help cope, heal, and feel whole again.

Also, if you love or lead someone with divorced or separated parents, the Restored podcast is also for you. We want to help you, help them.

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Coming Up: Episode #002: How 70 Adult Children of Divorce Have Suffered with Leila Miller

Thanks for listening! Our next episode features speaker and author Leila Miller, who wrote the book Primal Loss: The Now-Adult Children of Divorce Speak. [Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through this link, your purchase will support Restored. Thank you!]

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Are your parents divorced? Are they separated? Has that brought a lot of pain and problems into your life? Do you feel alone? Do you feel broken? Do you feel uncertain of how to deal with it all? If you answer yes to any of those questions, this podcast, the Restored podcast, is for you. Now, if that doesn't describe.

I have another question. Do you love or lead someone with divorced parents or separated parents? If so, the Restored podcast is also for you on it. We feature expert interviews and stories that give practical advice on how to cope and heal after the trauma of your parents' divorce or separation so you can feel hold.

Keep listening.

Welcome to the Restored podcast. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. This is episode one. Thank you so much for listening. In this episode, we're gonna touch on a few things. First, we're gonna talk about how your parents' divorce is affecting you. And what you can do about it. Uh, we'll touch on why studies show that people who come from divorced families typically struggle more in romantic relationships than people who come from intact families.

We're gonna talk about restored. What is restored and why does it exist. What you'll find is that it exists for you, and we're gonna also talk about the plan for this podcast. What's touc come down the road and how this can be valuable. To you if you come from a divorce or separated family or you lead or love someone who does, Anyone from a broken family knows that when your parents separate or divorce, it hurts.

It's painful even when it's absolutely necessary and it makes life harder. A lot of unique problems and challenges that children of divorce have to face that other people. And most young people I've found, feel alone, feel broken, and really uncertain of how to deal with it all. In fact, that was Mary's story as a little girl.

Mary watched her parents fight all the time. Their marriage was a mess, and they needed some serious help, but they never got it. Fast forward to when Mary was in high school, Mary's mom came to her and said, I want to divorce your dad. Mary didn't quite know what to say, so she said, I just want the fighting to stop.

Her mom went through with the divorce and what seemed like a solution to really bad situation, just made things worse. It just brought more pain and problems into their lives instead of fixing them. Now up to that point, uh, Mary was a pretty good girl. She didn't drink or party or do anything like that, but that all changed when she went off to college.

She got into the party scene, started drinking heavily. That led to dating the wrong guys. She married one of those guys. He ended up being a drug addict and an alcoholic. They got pregnant and because Mary was terrified that her baby was gonna grow up in that hell, she got an abortion. That obviously brought a lot more pain into her life and eventually she divorced her own husband, repeating the cycle, started by her parents, and once the dust settled, she fell into a deep depression and she still deals with all of this to this day, years later.

What if Mary could have gotten the help that she needed when she was dealing with all that stuff as a teenager? As a young adult, what if I could have helped Mary? What if restored could have helped Mary, given her the support she needed, helped her learn how to cope in healthy ways instead of unhealthy ways, and how to find real healing.

I can't help but think that her life would not have turned into the tragedy that it became. Mary isn't alone. Each year, over 1 million American children suffer the divorce that our parents. That statistics from the The Heritage Foundation, and if you're one of them, if you're like me and you're one of them, you can relate to Mary's story.

Again, I created this podcast, The Restored Podcast for you specifically. Now, divorce is a heavy topic, but it needs to be talked about. And for anyone listening, especially any parents out there, You know, you've gotten divorced. We're not here to condemn you, right? We're not here to condemn anyone or tear our parents down.

We're rather, we're here to focus on how we can help the children who are often forgotten. Like Mary, my parents are divorced too. I'll never forget the day that they separated. I was 11 years old and my mom sat us down, my siblings and me to break the news, and as soon as I. My whole world just shattered.

Without a doubt. It was the most painful day in my entire life. And as a boy, as an 11 year old boy, I didn't know what to do with that news. I didn't know how to deal with it. And so I just hid the closet and cried, and a million thoughts raced through my head, and I worried about my parents. I worried about my siblings, and I worried about myself and what would happen now sitting there in that closet, I felt so.

I felt extremely abandoned, and I felt like I wasn't good enough because if I was, why were mom and dad going separate ways? I became very bitter, very angry, uh, very sad. I isolated myself and just felt very lonely, and in an attempt to numb the pain, I turned to pleasure. Around that time, a friend showed me some pornography, and so I, I got into porn.

Even though it brought some momentary relief when I was looking at it afterward, I just felt so empty. Even at a young age. I knew that I wanted to be happy, and I knew that this was not making me happy. And so I needed to change. Not long after that, I heard a talk by Jason Everett, and in his talk he spoke about pornography and how harmful it is and how it just poisons us and our future romantic relationships, our future marriages.

Around that time too, I, I met some really good friends. The people I was hanging out with weren't good for me, and so got some new friends and I noticed. When I spent time with them, I was just happier and they happened to be, uh, Christians. They, they were Catholic Christians, and so I, I tried to spend more and more time with them, and that helped a lot.

But even though life was getting better for me, I still felt very broken inside. I knew that I wanted authentic love, I wanted freedom. I wanted happiness, but I felt stuck. I felt held back by my own brokenness. And so I realize this principle that I believe is true for all of us, and that is our untreated brokenness is one of the things that holds us back most from becoming the person we deeply desire to be.

I'll say that again. Our untreated brokenness is one of the things that holds us back most from becoming the person we deeply desire to. And so I knew I needed to heal. I looked around for some help. I looked for a book, a speaker, a retreat, something out there, and I found nothing. There was next and nothing out there to help people like me and certainly nothing practical.

There were some studies and some research that had been done on children of divorce, but nothing specifically speaking into the pain and problems that we deal with, and I knew I wasn't alone. I looked at my siblings and I saw how they were struggl. I looked at friends of mine, close friends of mine, and I saw how they were struggling with their parents' divorce or separation, and I heard about other people too and how they were struggling, and so years later I started restored and ever restored.

We create content that gives practical advice to teens and young adults on how to cope and heal. After the trauma their parents divorced their separat. At this recording, the, the type of content that we produce is talks, podcasts, episodes, and our blog articles. In the future, we're gonna do things like videos, books, and, and much more.

We have a lot planned ahead. We also offer online community just to give support and, uh, help everyone to have a safe place to talk about, uh, the pain and the problems that they deal with from their parents', divorce or separation. And we also have a way to find a coach, a counselor, or a spiritual. Uh, to guide you.

My goal with all this is just to give. What I wish I would've had years ago. Now, I, I mentioned that restored is focused on teens and young adults, so anyone from 13 to 30. But of course, anyone can listen to this podcast and if there's something that's useful for that audience and someone else finds it useful, that's awesome.

We love that. Now, I also mentioned that anyone who loves or leads children of divorce or separation, uh, this is for you too, whether you're, you know, a boyfriend, a girl, Family friend, a cousin, an aunt, an uncle, whatever the case might be. Uh, if you're a teacher, a coach, a youth minister, passer a priest, this is also for you as well.

We wanna help you help them. A little bit about me. I'm not a psychologist, I don't have a PhD, but what I do have is 15 years of experience wrestling with this stuff. I've done 10 years. Spiritual direction or coaching. And if you're not familiar with that, it's just basically a, a mentorship where a coach helps you in life, deal with whatever you're dealing with, and especially helps you grow in your spiritual life.

I've done five years of counseling, three years of listening to people like us and researching this topic heavily. Now I'm not pretending to be perfect and trying to tell you guys that you just need to be like me. Not at all. That's not what this podcast is about. I have learned a lot along the way and I wanna share what I've learned if it's helpful, but we just wanna help you guys and if that means you learn something from me, from my experience and what I've learned in the research, I've.

Great. Um, but maybe it's from someone we bring on the show or a story that you hear. We just wanna help you guys in whatever way we can. And I'm still learning. I'm still growing, I'm still dealing with my own brokenness, but the whole goal here is for me to help the people who are a few steps behind me.

And if I can't help them, then I'm gonna get you the help that you need in some other. Let's talk a bit about divorce and how it affects the children. Now, I think most of you guys would agree that divorce is a tragedy. It's a really sad thing. Even in cases where it's extremely necessary, it's traumatic for the children, right?

It wounds us. It overwhelms our ability to to cope and deal with it all. Even with that, there's some people in the world who say that divorce is such a good thing that we need more divorce. In fact, you can Google this. There is such a thing as divorce parties. These are parties to celebrate your divorce.

You get a divorce, you invite your family, your friends, to celebrate your divorce. It's like a reverse wedding. Now, some people say that divorce doesn't hurt the kids, or you know, they're resilient. We hear that a lot, that the kids are resilient or even if they admit. Divorce does hurt us. The kids, they usually say that it's not very significant.

It's a small hurt and it doesn't last very long. The problem with that is that it's just not true, and even though some people who say that are probably have like the best intentions, they just haven't seen the research. Even those of us though, who do admit that divorce is a bad thing, I think we've just become so numb to it because it's so common.

When I give talks, uh, I ask the audience to raise their hands if they come from a divorce or separated family, or, uh, if they have a friend who does. I know someone who does, and every time I've given it, it's been practically a hundred percent every time. I, I'm pretty sure it's been a hundred percent.

It's hard to count when you're up there, but pretty sure it's always been a hundred percent and. This is a tragedy. This is such a big problem in our world, yet hardly anyone's talking about it. I wanna take a second to speak to those of you who do come from a divorce or a separated family. Guys, I'm so sorry for what you've had to go through.

You've had to endure more pain in your short lives than some people have to deal with in their entire lives. Every child deserves. A healthy family and two parents who love each other and stick together. Guys, the divorce was not your fault. The divorce was not your fault. No matter what anyone says, there's nothing that you could have done to prevent it.

And there's nothing that you did that caused it. It was between your parents, not you. And of course we were affected by it, but it nothing you did cause. After giving a talk recently, a girl came up to me and she confided in me that her dad, even though she's in college now, her dad still blames her for the divorce that happened years ago when she was a kid.

It's so sad, and I want you all to know that you are not doomed to repeat your parents' mistakes. You are not doomed to repeat your parents' mistakes You. Your own story. We fear that, don't we? We're afraid that we're gonna get divorced, that you know our life, our marriage might turn out the same way our parents said.

But I'm here to tell you that you don't have to repeat that past, You can write your own story. Now, diving into some of the research, how does Divorce effect the children? So the research shows that children of divorce are more likely to have social. Behavioral problems, difficulty in their relationship with their parents, difficulty in romantic relationships.

They're more likely to get divorced. They have higher frequencies of depression and violence. Higher risk for suicide attempts, reduce physical health, lower levels of success in school, more emotional problems. And typically have lower self-esteem. Now, this wasn't just one study that found this. This is from a meta-analysis study, which is basically a summary study of 67 different studies about children of divorce and the effect the divorce has on them.

And it was published in the Journal of Family Psychology by Dr. Paul Amato from Penn State University. Another researcher who spent so much time with children of divorce was Dr. Judith Wallerstein, and for 25 years plus, she studied children of divorce and she wrote a book called The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce.

And in it she reports her findings from a 25 year long study. She followed around 131 young people from 60 families, and one really important. Note about this study is that she only chose children who never had emotional or developmental problems before the divorce. And she compared them of course, to, uh, children from intact families over the years and after years of researching this, she said our findings challenged the myth that divorce is a transient crisis.

And then as soon as parents reestablish their lives, the children will fully. That doesn't happen. She found in her research that children of divorce were less likely to get married. They were more likely to divorce, less likely to have children. They're more likely to heavily use drugs or alcohol during high school.

They were less likely to finish high school, less likely to go to college, and more likely to drop out. They're far less likely to receive financial support from their parents for college and the men. Interesting. We're far less likely to enter into an intimate relationship. Dr. Judith said parents like to believe that if they are unhappy in their marriage, the children will also be unhappy.

Conversely, if divorce is better for them, it will be better for the children, but things don't work that way. Children frequently do not share their parents unhappiness with a problematic marriage while a divorce brings pain into their lives. That until. Has gone unrecognized. She goes on to say, We are allowing the children to bear the psychological, economic, and moral brunt of divorce.

The really key takeaway from her research is that the effects of divorce actually aren't fully experienced until adulthood years later, and the most obvious way that it becomes apparent. Is in our future romantic relationships. And you might be wondering why is that? We're gonna get into that in future episodes of the podcast.

But a basic, the basic reason why is that we lack a roadmap for love. We don't have a roadmap for love. Our concept of love and marriage is very broken because more than anyone else, our parents teach us about marriage and they teach us about love. And if we didn't see that go. Then we have a really broken idea of what it's supposed to look like, and I think that's a big reason why we're less likely to marry and more likely to get divorce.

I mentioned that we're gonna talk about that in future podcasts. We're also gonna talk about what you can do about it. At this point, I hope you can see that divorce is bad for the children, even in. When it's necessary, it may just be the lesser of two evils. And it's painful, right? It makes our lives harder.

Now, you may be thinking, are there ever any exceptions to this? And you probably caught what I've said a few times, that there's extreme cases where it is necessary. And before I get into those cases, I just wanna say, The goal is always to reunite the couple and bring the family back together if it's possible.

And sometimes it's not possible, right? We're under no illusion here at ReSTOR, but that's always the goal. Now, some of the cases where divorce is necessary is when there's violence, when there's abuse, you know, no one should live in that situation. We are. Encouraging that at all. You know, you there needs to be physical separation in that case, and if it's necessary, divorce extremely high conflict marriages where there's just always so much drama.

Now, side note on that, research shows that less than one third of divorces are actually like that. I always thought it was much more, but less than one third of divorces are actually like that. And more than two thirds, more than 66% of divorces are actually low conflict. So they don't have all that drama.

They don't have, you know, maybe the violence or the abuse. And the last reason I'll mention is for legal reasons. So imagine a mom who is a full-time mom. She, she's at home with the kids and maybe she has three kids, let's say, and dad one day just picks up and leaves with another. At that point, it may be necessary for the mom to pursue a divorce in order for her to get some money for her and the kids and provide for herself and just while she gets on her feet.

Again. Having said all of that, I want you to know that we're not belittling parents or their suffering. I can imagine what it's like to live in. Difficult marriage. I am married, so I know that marriage can be hard, but I can't imagine to live in something that's so intense. That being said, we believe that children, parents, and society deserve better than divorce.

We believe that we need to be supporting them. Supporting these families, supporting these marriages and helping them fix or heal the problems in their marriage and help them thrive, help them have great marriages, instead of leaving them feel like they only have one option and that's to leave their spouse or to get a divorce.

In the majority of cases, there's simply a better way and we need to be doing all that we can, uh, to help couples like that. If your parents are divorced or separat, I know hearing all this can be pretty depressing, so bear with me. There is hope. The first thing I want you to know is that you're not alone.

You're not alone to face all of this. We're here to help you. You are the hero of your story, and we just want to guide you. We just wanna help you along your journey. How are we gonna do that? We actually have a very simple plan. The goal of this podcast is to offer practical advice from expert interviews and stories.

Focus on two area. The first area, how to cope in healthy ways. The second area, how to actually heal the expert. Interviews are gonna be conducted with authors, speakers, researchers, psychologists, counselors, marriage experts, uh, spiritual coaches, life coaches and so on. In these interviews, I'm gonna be asking questions like, how do you begin to.

Right. What's the process look like? How does someone overcome their porn addiction? Right? Drinking habit, overeating, cutting. The list goes on and on. How do I cure the loneliness? I feel, How can I overcome my fear of love? How do I build a really good marriage when I didn't see it at home? How do I build a divorce proof?

And so many more questions like that. The idea with the interviews is for us to do the hard work and give you access to people who you may not have access to In this podcast. For the stories, we're gonna be talking to other children of divorce, especially those who are older, so they can shed light on not only what happened and the pain and the problems that they dealt with, but also.

How they found healing and what their life looks like now, and how they feel so different now because they went through the healing process. You may be wondering, why are we gonna focus on coping and healing? Specifically, coping is all about survival. In simple terms, coping is the thoughts that we have or the actions we take, and in response to the pain and problems in our lives and the stress in our lives.

And what I've seen in my own life and working with and speaking to so many children of divorce is that when your parents separate or divorce, it hurts, right? It's painful. It brings a lot of problems into our lives and to numb the pain and distract ourselves from the problems that we face, we usually.

to unhealthy things, right? We turn to unhealthy ways of coping. Like I mentioned porn in my own story, drinking drugs. The list goes on, and when we do those things and we seek and escape in that way, it always leaves us feeling empty, and it certainly doesn't make the pain or the problems go away. It doesn't solve anything.

And so it's so important that we learn to cope in healthy. If we wanna find the freedom and the happiness that we long for, because life in our family situation is gonna throw a lot more pain and problems at us. We're also gonna get into specific situations and, and how to deal with them situations like, you know, what do you do when your parents turn to you for emotional support in an unhealthy.

Or what do you do when mom or dad starts talking bad about the other one? What do you say in that situation now? How do you set healthy boundaries? What do you do when holidays come around and it's really painful and, and much more. There's so many unique and difficult situations that we wanna help you learn to navigate, uh, and deal with.

Now, shifting gears from coping to healing. Healing is all about growing and thriving. If you, if you Google healing, You'll see that it's the process of becoming healthy and whole. And we all know what this looks like in physical healing, right? You break your arm, you go to the doctor, they examine your arm, you know, they put you in a cast.

Maybe they have to do surgery or do something more extreme, but they give you pain medication and you know, you do physical therapy for a while and then eventually your arm is, is whole. It's, it's healthy. The same thing needs to happen in our emotional and psychological lives too, because we experience very real injuries, very real hurt in those areas of our lives.

But because we can't see them often, we don't do anything about it. You. As I've said a few times now, when our parents separat a divorce, it wounds us. It hurts and left untreated. Those wounds usually bring more pain and problems into our lives, and they, they hold us back in life, right? They give us that feeling of being stuck.

So we can't simply treat the symptoms in our lives, the porn, the drinking, the drugs, whatever else it might be. We have to go underneath and get at the root cause, the root issue. And I, I noticed that in my own life. Like I said, you know, when I got porn out of my life, life was better, but I still felt broken.

And so I was just treating the symptoms and I think so often in a world we do that, right? We just treat symptoms, we don't actually get to the root problem. One of my parents separated. It left me feeling, uh, abandoned and not good enough. And those are very real wounds. A wound of abandonment and really a wound of inadequacy or just not feeling like you are enough.

So many of us. When we experience wounds like that, we stuff them away. Now, if you stuff your wounds away, or you live with them for so long, they'll seem normal. You'll just think that, well, this is the way that life is and this is the way it's always going to be. And I'm here to tell you guys, that's not true.

All right. Your life can be better than it is today. You can actually find healing. You can actually reverse those unhealthy ways of coping. You can find freedom from your wounds, and you can feel whole, and we're gonna prove it to you in this podcast through the stories that we tell. Two obstacles I think we face when it comes to healing is that one, we don't make it a priority.

Like I said, we might. Get comfortable in life. So we don't give any time or attention or effort, uh, to dealing with it. And I hope that through listening to this podcast and these future episodes, you'll realize that healing is actually worth the effort. It's worth your time. It's even worth the pain that you're gonna need to go through to find it.

The second thing I think is we don't know how, We don't know how to heal. Over the years, I asked so many people, How do I heal? And to be honest with you, I didn't get very good answers. Certainly not practical and actionable answers. And so listening to this podcast, our hope is that you'll know how to heal, and we're working hard to make all of this content, all the advice that we're giving.

Very practical, simple, and actionable stuff you can actually start doing in your life. I want to end with this. You may be thinking, what's the point of all this? Why do I even need to heal? Why do I need to find healthy ways of coping? Why can't I just leave what's in the past, in the past and be done with it?

I wanna tell you a beautiful story of Lina Everett's healing. Uh, as a response to those questions, her earliest memories are of her dad hitting her mom, her, her parents got divorced as well. She suffered sexual abuse and high school. She got into drugs, alcohol, sex, and she just felt miserable. Too similar to me.

She heard a talk that changed her life. And she stopped drinking, stopped doing drugs, and stopped sleeping around, and it was difficult for her, but life got better. But even though life got better, she still felt broken, and it wasn't until a few years into marriage. When she became a, a mother that her brokenness started to surface.

She started to feel angry a lot and just was experiencing all these messy emotions. And what she realized is that for so long she had stuffed to weigh so much of her brokenness, and she was seeing it come out now on her children and her marriage on her husband, and so she said, This stops with me because she knew that if she continued down this path, she was gonna pass on her brokenness to her husband and to her kids.

And so she dedicated herself to her healing and she got a counselor. She went to counseling. She got a good spiritual coach. She's Catholic, so she spent a ton of time praying, spent a lot of time in adoration, and this was a three year major healing process. Afterward, she said that she felt so transformed.

She felt so free. She felt so light, she felt more confident, she felt stronger. She felt like a better wife, a better mother. She wasn't ashamed of her past. She didn't feel the need to keep secrets. In short, she just felt so free, so whole, and she just wasn't afraid. Guys, that is what healing is meant to do for you.

That's what I want for all of you to experience the freedom and wholeness like Sina felt, and I, I wanted you to imagine that. Imagine that you feel like Chris Sele very broken, all these messy emotions. A lot of pain and problems in your life, and then imagine going through that healing process and feeling so transformed.

Life isn't perfect, but you are better, and you are stronger, and you're more confident and you're, you're experiencing that freedom that you long for and you feel whole, not broken. And we have to acknowledge too, that at an extreme, our lives could become like Mary's life. They can turn into a sort of tragedy or maybe it's not that extreme and maybe life just continues on, but we lack the meaning that we long for, we lack the freedom that we long for life is kind of dull.

It's not the adventure that we want it to be. And I, I don't say that to scare you, but just to acknowledge the fact that if we don't do anything about our broken. Then that's the path that we're heading down, and I wanna leave you with this. It's a quote I heard the other day that's attributed to CS Lewis.

He said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending. We can't reverse what happened to us. We can't change our past. In that sense, we are a victim, but we're not meant to remain victims. We can write our own story and we can choose. What our future will be like.

We can heal, we can grow. We can learn how to deal with the pain and the problems in our lives in a healthy way. Guys, that's what we want for you, and we're gonna help you get there. With this podcast, we're working hard to really make this useful and valuable to you. And if it was useful and it was, I invite you to subscribe just so you'll be notified of, of new episodes that come out, and you can do that just on your preferred podcast app.

Otherwise, you can go to our website, restored ministry.com/podcast. Uh, again, that's restored. Ministry Ministry is just singular restored ministry.com/podcast. When you go on that page, you'll enter your email and your name and we'll notify you when new episodes. Thank you so much for listening. Always remember, you're not alone.

We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person. You deeply desire to be.

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