#113: A New Therapy to Heal Trauma | Dr. Christopher Genn, DPT

Trauma, such as your parents’ divorce or extreme family dysfunction, doesn’t only affect your emotions. It affects your body too. It quite literally has physical effects. 

In this episode, Dr. Christopher Genn, a physical therapist and expert in applied kinesiology, explains how our bodies respond to trauma and how we can heal. Plus, we discuss:

• A new therapy to treat pain, trauma, and even rewire bad habits

• The story of a girl enduring her parents’ divorce who became physically debilitated 

• How we often lie to ourselves about our families, parents, and past - and why that’s a barrier to healing

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• The Emotion Code: How to Release Your Trapped Emotions for Abundant Health, Love, and Happiness | Dr. Bradley Nelson

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When you endure a trauma such as your parent's divorce or extreme family dysfunction, it doesn't just affect your emotions, it affects your body, too. It literally has physical effects, and in this episode, I'm joined by Dr. Chris Fergen, a physical therapist and expert in applied kinesiology, where He's able to explain how our bodies respond to trauma and what we can do to heal.

We also talk about things like a new therapy to treat pain, trauma, and even to rewire bad habits. He also tells a story about a girl who went through her parents divorce and how it literally had physical effects on her. We talk about the balance and healing between accepting where you are today, but at the same time striving for a better life and a healthier future.

You and finally we hit on how we often lie to ourselves about our families about our past and even about our parents And how that's super unhelpful how it's such a barrier to healing. So a lot of great stuff ahead. Stay with us Welcome to the restored podcast helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce Separation or broken family so you can break the cycle.

I'm your host Joey Pontarelli, this is episode 113. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast helpful and even healing. We've heard tons of great feedback. One person left this review. They said, The community that's needed. I feel so grateful for this podcast. After my parents divorce, I was left with a lot of unanswered questions and feelings, leaving me confused and isolated.

My friends and family did their best to be present for me, and counseling helped. But this community of others who have walked the same road and chosen a different path, one of love, peace, and forgiveness, continues to encourage me years later, wonderful, practical hope giving. Again, we're so happy that it's been so helpful for you.

We do it for you. Again, my guest today is Dr. Christopher Gann. As a child, he experienced these extreme headaches and vomiting, which actually led to five brain surgeries, if you can believe that. And that sparked a passion in him to really better understand the human body pain and healing. And he graduated from Mercy College with his bachelor's in health science and a certified strength and conditioning specialist.

certification. He then completed various clinical rotations working in orthopedic, acute care, and pediatric, and doctor again became certified in something called functional movement systems, and he worked alongside this physical therapist who was trained by the American Academy of Manipulative Therapy, and that led him to learn these advanced manual therapy skills, including spinal and joint manipulation.

techniques. Eventually, he launched his own practice. It's called Be Not Afraid Physical Therapy. He launched it to better serve his clients, where he became fully certified in new therapy called QNRT and applied kinesiology, which you're going to hear a lot about in this episode. And in this episode, we do talk about God and faith.

And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this podcast for a while knows that We're not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, I just challenge you to listen with an open mind. Even if you were to take out the God parts, you're still going to benefit from this episode.

And with that, here's my conversation with Dr. Christopher Genn.

Dr. Genn, so good to have you on the show. Thanks for being here. so much for having me. I'm very excited. I'm super impressed with you. I mean, we've known each other for a while and just looking through all the work you've done. I'm again, very impressed and how you've really taken your own pain and transformed it into something to help other people.

And I was thinking about this before the show, a lot of times people who get in your line of work, they often do it for practical reasons because maybe they were really good. at it, or they have a passion for it, or it's just a way to pay the bills. But, and while some of that might be true for you, there's a much deeper reason.

You didn't learn about suffering. You didn't learn about pain and healing in a book. You've really lived it. And so I'd love to know your story. Sure. I mean, my story really started at a very young age, uh, before my memory started. And. In my first year of life, even, so, uh, I've been told that every month or so I'd have at least three or four days worth where I'd have 105 plus degree fevers and sweats and everything that goes along with fevers and, uh, the doctors and everybody that couldn't explain it and it was untreated and went as such for at least a year, a little bit more than a year, I think, and, uh, that subsided and Uh, then after that, uh, around five, uh, I started having real severe headaches and they were so bad.

I, they were accompanied by vomiting, profuse vomiting for, uh, days sometimes. And, uh, they'd come and go and they gradually got worse and we tried to have them evaluated and, um, my mom's a nurse and so she kept kind of pursuing it. The doctors at that time said, you know, they're just childhood migraines.

Take some, take some Tylenol and, you know, go rest. So, as it continued, uh, for months and months, and, uh, I'd be vomiting in the office, in the waiting room in the office and everywhere, uh, with a pounding headache. And they finally put me in for an MRI. And when they did that, they found a huge cyst the size of a plum in my five year old brain.

And, uh, that was causing many of those, those symptoms. So Uh, I was put into emergency surgery, but, uh, not quite emergency because they had to calm down the inflammation because it was so high. So, uh, after a couple of days, they put me into surgery and I ended up having five surgeries before the nervous surgeon was able to regulate the pressure within my head.

And, uh, I was blessed. Um, I was spared from having any seizure disorder at that time, which the neurosurgeon was very surprised. But through that suffering, uh, I really learned the, the gift. I was taught the gift actually by my parents. Um, and I learned it very much hand up firsthand to offer up the suffering, to offer it up for other people, to offer it up for people I loved and to really give it over to God at that time.

Cause I was not in control of it. I couldn't do anything about it myself. You know, there's nothing I could do to control the pain and the suffering. So, uh, I learned that there was a way out in a way, a way to make the pain meaningful to me. And that was through offering it up. And, uh, when I learned that, it really did help.

Um, and I have many, many blessings, many stories. Where I was very much accompanied, um, by Mary. At that time I, I learned that Mary was, you know, the mother of God in, in our Catholic faith. And as I learned that, uh, she was somebody I turned to. And she, she was always there for me. Could always turn as a as somebody who comforted me as a young child.

Um, and so that was, that was really the, the, the big suffering and it continued over the years, even after the surgeries. Every time I'd play sports, do something that I absolutely loved, I would be up the majority of that night with splitting headaches and vomiting. Even after the surgeries, but, uh, but I never stopped doing what I loved, but I would have to suffer afterwards.

And, uh, you know, they eventually did subside. Probably, I don't remember exactly the time frame, but by the time I was probably nine or ten, they more or less subsided. Anyway, jumpstart forward a bunch of years, you know, um, at the end of grad school. And, uh, we had our, I was married, end of grad school, we had our first child, Gianna.

And, uh, I started experiencing, I was training for a marathon, I was in great shape, etc. And, I started getting those same headaches. I hadn't had that intense of a headache since I remember when I was like, you know, a young child and I said, man, anyway, I kept pushing it off. They're just allergies, you know, it was allergy season.

I had allergies before and, uh, I went to the doc and he said, well, you could treat it as allergies if you want to see how it goes. Anyway, it only got worse. It didn't help at all. So I'm out at my in laws and they see a chiropractor. So I. I was never raised with like natural medicine, but my, my wife, she was very much raised that way.

So I was out and my in laws visiting for Easter, I believe it was, and I was getting my headaches. I couldn't do anything about it. Nothing touched them. And I was vomiting all night that night. I said, and my in laws were like, you got to go see. Uh, you know, Dr. Kathy, who they had seen and they said she'll be able to help at least figure out what's going on.

I was like, okay, you know, I'll take anything. So she's a chiropractor who does muscle testing. And that was my first introduction. So, uh, she was, she took me in as a friend of theirs. So she didn't even do like a full evaluation. She just took me in and said, let me just see what's going on. And she did her evaluation and she knew nothing about, about my history.

And she said, uh, is there a reason that your cerebral spinal fluid, uh, which by the way, my cyst when I was a kid was filled with cerebral spinal fluid. That's the type of cyst it was. And she said, your levels are off the charts. There's something wrong, and I was like, How did you just figure that out?

He's like, you know nothing about me. Yeah, wow. And she just did muscle testing, and I was like, Yeah, there's a reason. You know, I have a, I have a shunt, and it drains the cyst. You need to get that checked out. So I was like, all right, I need to, you know, I went back to my neurosurgeon, and, uh, Sure enough, um, the tubing had corroded, and it was no longer functioning.

So I had a flare up, so. At that point, I had never experienced that. I was at the end of grad school, as I said, physical therapy. I was led to physical therapy, and I loved what I was doing. And then this stopped, kind of stopped me in my tracks and said, Whatever she just did, I have no idea what she just did.

Whatever she just did was meaningful because, like, that gets to more than just, Oh, these are your symptoms, let's cover it up. It was like, no, she could tell what was the most important thing. By just muscle testing and evaluating my entire system as a whole and so that was a start and I said at that point I was I graduated and then I said, you know, I'm gonna hand this over to God I'm I'm gonna say, you know lead me to learn something like that that I can really help people and Do it in your time and I kept looking for opportunities to learn Any type of muscle testing.

And, uh, And all the doors kept closing for me. And I was like, alright, I'll put it on the back burner for now. And I kept looking into it again. And, nope, not this time. So Looking back, I have many ideas as to why I didn't learn it quite right away. I had, I had some many, many things to learn about prior to that, but, but eventually a couple of years ago, uh, it was the right time.

And I launched pretty much as my, as my wife told everybody, pretty much back into like graduate school almost. And I launched full steam ahead into a hundred hour course in applied kinesiology. And. That's really what allowed me to see what she did and even further than that allowed me to realize the impact of what I went through back then and how it's actually interconnected with what my family was going through at the time and the pain and suffering that was there and how that had impacted my suffering.

Uh, on a physical level and, and ways that, for instance, when I was at one of the seminars, again, these guys don't know anything about us or whatever, you know, and we're testing each other. And, uh, you know, he isolates a spot here. Um, on my head where the cyst, where the, where the cyst happened to be, um, he didn't know that, but he said, you know, um, and he narrowed in some, some, uh, some emotions, some things that, you know, were, were affecting that region.

And he said, you need to address what's going on there. And I was like, you know, in my head, like all these thoughts, I'm like, what, whoa, like, are you kidding me? Like, and I told him, I was like. I have a, I have a VP shunt in my head that drains a cyst that I've been told is pretty much where you're pointing and he's like, that's not surprising and he had been doing this kind of work for years and I was like, that's not surprising.

I was like, yeah, it is. Are you kidding? I mean, that brings a whole new light to like everything I've ever experienced, like And he's, and, uh, and that was the opening of my door personally, uh, to actually experience what I had been starting to learn and, uh, have now been graced to continue to experience personally the healing, uh, of that type of work because the physical stress that I was under was a, uh, just a presentation.

Of what I was kind of experiencing around me at the time and my body trapped in and, uh, and has affected me in many, many ways since then, uh, that I've come to learn through some of the work that I've experienced. Incredible. Thank you for sharing so vulnerably and I, man, I want to go deeper into a couple of things.

Uh, one point I just wanted to make is it's beautiful how your pain didn't crush you, but you allowed it to transform you. Um, sadly, you know, you could look around the world today and see people where their pain crushes them. It truly does hold them down. Um, but it's beautiful how you didn't let that happen.

And you, by God's grace, as you'd say, we're able to transform that. And then now even use that as a way to help other people because you understand pain on a deep level. You know, again, some people understand it kind of intellectually, but they've never suffered much. You've suffered a lot, which I think would totally change if, you know, a patient comes You're helping them through some problem they're facing, whether it's physical or emotional.

You get that on a deep level, so that's really beautiful. I also admire the balance you had. And I know when you were younger, this is maybe more of your parents kind of instilling it in you, but how you had somewhat of an acceptance of where you were. It's like, okay, I'm going through all this pain, like I'm throwing up.

I'm, you know, have these horrible headaches, like all this stuff that you were dealing with. Um, but at the same time you were striving to find a solution. And I think that that that's a tricky balance because I think on one end we can just give into resignation thinking, well, my life is just always going to be this way.

All I can do, and I know we're going to get into this, but all I could do is really manage it. Um, or, you know, kind of even just having this ultra focus on finding some sort of utopia. A solution that will make, you know, life perfect, neither of those are healthy, obviously. And so it's cool to see kind of how you had the balance between the two.

But what I want to focus on and feel free to comment on any of that is just the pain in your family. Um, that, uh, stood out to me, especially given our audience who comes from broken families. So I'm just curious, like, what was that that impacted you not only emotionally, but also physically whatever was going on in your family?

First of all, I want to touch on the acceptance. You know, because, uh, I mean, anybody knows that if you stub your toe, you know, and if you're in the middle of something really important, you can put that aside and focus on what's really important in front of you. If you're alone and you're doing something, you stub your toe.

That's like the end of the world. You're like, oh my gosh, that hurts so bad. But if you're like, you know, in an interview for instance, and you stub your toe on something, you can kind of, you know, push down your reaction a little bit and accept the fact that, you know what, it hurts, but I'm okay. And, uh, you know, that's, that's a hard place to be except pain and except suffering and realize that that's actually not the end of the story.

It's actually the launching pad, right? Pain and suffering in our life allows us to grow. Anybody who exercises, right? When you exercise, what do you have to do? You have to stress the muscle. You have to strain the body. You have to push. Past the limit that you think you can handle, but what do you get out of that?

You get the awareness that you can actually do more than you thought you could an hour ago. You get the, you get the increased growth of muscle. You get the increased ability of your body to do more, to go further, and to experience greater heights of enjoyment. But if you just think, I'm stuck here and I can't endure any more suffering.

Then there's no more growth. And so yes, your point of accepting that pain and suffering, whatever it is, whether or not it's a physical pain of suffering or whether or not it's purely emotional and you're just having total anxiety or deep depression. Um, you know, accepting the fact of where you are is a huge first step.

Uh, and, and that always. And I had a quick scenario. I had a quick, I had a gentleman in, and uh, first time working with him. And he, he, we evaluate what's going on, etc, etc. And I, and I ask him, and I go, You know what was going on between three and five years old? And he goes, I don't have much memory at all of my childhood, but uh, And then he thinks, no.

He comes out, he's like, Oh, but my, you know, my dad was an alcoholic and, and he died when I was six, but you know, he was a good father. And through my testing, I'm like, yeah, but your system doesn't believe he was a good father. So I go, so, so could you just say that again for me? And he goes, my dad was a good father and I muscle test him, which is testing whether or not that statement is congruent with his entire being because our system responds to statements like that.

And so consciously, he's told himself, because it's important for us to have a good father, he told himself that my dad was a good father. He doesn't have many memories of it, but he was an alcoholic and there was tension there. So I said, say that again, and his arm goes weak, he goes, wait a second, does that mean That my subconscious, my entire being doesn't actually agree with that statement.

I said, that's exactly what that means. And that was the root of it. Um, that he didn't accept the fact that, oh, my father actually was not a good father. And if we don't accept what reality is, we can't then address it. We can't allow healing if we don't actually look at it and see what, for what it is. So I didn't know what was going on in my family back then.

I had no idea. I had no conscious awareness at all, really. Uh, looking back, I mean I thought I had a great family life. I thought it was peachy, um, sort of speak. But, uh, but after having worked with my parents and, and, and the work that I do as well, and work, having work done on myself, I realized so many things are linked back to that time frame and linked back to difficulties within my parents marriage, infidelities linked in my parents marriage.

Uh, and generational sins and difficulties and patterns of impurities and infidelities within marriages in my parents, my father's line, and how that actually has impacted my genetics, you know, things that get passed down genetically, right? It's they actually can be patterns of sin or patterns of bad decisions, and they can get passed on and they get trapped in our tissues.

And so, you know, looking back, you know, there, there were those patterns in my, in my parents, um, relationship at the time. And I was kind of, I was kind of like the, uh, the scapegoat, so to speak. Or I had to be the person to, to regulate. And when stuff was going on and I couldn't regulate I had severe headaches, severe symptoms, or later on I had, you know, I had the high fevers early on in my first year of life, you know, these things were probably related or actually definitely were related to some of the things that were going on in my parents, uh, marriage in their, in their experience.

And so, you know, learning that now it links a whole lot together for me. Um, and it allows me to, to, to actually address things that I wasn't fully even conscious of because again, I didn't have memories at one years old. I don't even have members at three, four years old when I started the other symptoms.

So you know, families that are broken, there's many more repercussions. And so often we don't allow ourselves. To accept them or allow ourselves to say, you know what, my family situation is not good. And as a five year old, I can't really do anything about that. And it's not my role. You know, I took on, and I very much even consciously took on, from a young age, the responsibility to kind of manage the family.

to balance the family. And I was always extremely aware of, um, my mom's mood, or my mom's situation, or I always had to kind of watch out there, or, um, even amongst my siblings, I would try to kind of be the peacemaker. Um, or I was never really a part of the discord. I felt like it was my role to accept it, and then kind of My body couldn't take it anymore and it would erupt.

So that's a little bit about, you know, makes so much sense. No, it's so fascinating. And gosh, so many lessons I'm learning from you. A couple of things I wanted to mention one, just this fact that we lie to ourselves, like that patient that you had fascinating, right? And I'm just thinking in my own life, man, how often have I just lied to myself or what's coming out of my mouth just isn't, doesn't align with reality.

It doesn't reflect reality. It's just not actually true. That's one thing. Um, the other thing too, is just. Please. Yeah. And the other thing I was just going to mention is this whole field of epigenetics, just to make sure everyone, because I think sometimes what people, when they hear some of the things we're talking about, they may think that, well, that's kind of like phony.

It's not real science. It's like, no, no, this is real science. Like this whole field of epigenetics, from my understanding of it, I'm not, you know, like you clinical, medical, medical, Signs trained, but my understanding of it is it's looking at the ways our genes express themselves Based on our environment and an example that was kind of given to me is you might in your genetics You might have a predisposition to be an alcoholic but if your environment never kind of triggers that in you you could go through your life and not struggle with alcoholism or you can Be in a really difficult situation and then start becoming an alcoholic in order to cope with the pain in your life Exactly so Right, so in this field of epigenetics, from what I understand, it's like, it's, we're still discovering so much right now, and so, feel free to speak to any of that, but yeah, lying to ourselves, it's super real, I didn't realize it until you just said it.

Think about a lie detection test, right? Everybody has a basic understanding, generally, of a lie detection test, you know, you're hooked up and, and you, They look on a graph and see whether or not there's a physiological change when somebody's telling the truth or when somebody's telling a lie. And they start with something basic, which is actually how I start explaining it with people too.

My name is Chris, and that's a truth. And my subconscious, my entire being, should respond to that as a truth. And so, if I said, my name is Josh, my name's clearly not Josh, and so that would be a lie for me. And not only is it a lie, it actually has a physiological effect on me, so it changes my heart rate and you can see that it changes my ability of my nervous system to function.

And so that's how the muscle test then works. It inhibits the nervous system to respond normally, and which is why lying is not good for us. But physiologically, it brings us down. And, you know, you said you stated that fact of the epigenetics so perfectly because Some, some people argue whether or not, you know, these things are real and things, but it's the expression of, you, you may have a predisposition to, uh, cancer or predisposition to different types of cancer or predisposition to any number of things, um, including then the emotional side of things, depression that runs in families, people know things like this runs in family, you have a predisposition to it, but if you live a healthy lifestyle, have a of well functioning, stable environment, and, uh, you're not triggered, you may never fall into that, but you are more readily triggered, um, by certain things, and then It's when those thing gets triggered a time and time and time again that then it creates real issues and you see the body and the person breaking down because it can't because the same triggers are there people are rejected and then so and so a boyfriend rejects them later in life and then you know and then you end up having somebody who just gets rejected a time and time again the boyfriend keeps cheating on them you have a different boyfriend he cheats on you have a different boyfriend he cheats you Wow, and then you get married and then that guy leaves and cheats on you again and people are like, why is this always happening to me?

And part of it is, is actually the suffering that they almost bring it on because they've never addressed the fact that they're okay having a faithful partner because their system is patterned to respond to, I actually want rejection. And that's like, when people come to the realization that their entire being, except for their conscious brain, is asking for rejection, it's like, so backwards.

But our nervous system can get so screwed up, because it's been hurt so badly, that it can be patterned to want the opposite of what our conscious brain thinks. We want We want to get rid of that stuff, the total rejection, and we want somebody who's going to be faithful. And the work that I do with the QNRT, the Quantum Neurological Reset Therapy, is doing exactly that.

It's saying, listen, consciously, you are seeking after a faithful relationship. But subconsciously, your system is saying, nope, I'm not letting go of that rejection. I'm not accepting that rejection that I had when my father left me or left our family. I'm not accepting that. I'm not letting go of it. I'm not forgiving it.

And I no longer, and I'm not even saying I'm okay moving on or moving forward. And when your subconscious is trapped there, you want to be ready to say, no, consciously I do want to let go of that. I do want to forgive that. I'm, I'm actually at that point where I'm ready to do that and as long as we have that conscious acceptance of that, then we can do the work that I do and we can say, okay, let's do the training of the brain in a couple minutes and let's help to repattern that part of the system that says, okay, I'm going to let go of that.

I'm going to forgive him and I'm going to be okay with having a faithful partner. Okay. And it's so powerful, the nervous system. If somebody is not consciously ready to forgive that person, and I do the reset, helping them to actually be okay with forgiving them, but they're not actually willing to forgive, they could be sick for days or weeks because it creates such a non congruency.

Their will, their desire is not there. Which is why I always have to say, as soon as we come up with what's bothering the body, are you willing to say, I forgive my father for leaving us? Are you willing? If they're not, we wait. And you have to come to the time where, and we can do other things to assist.

But if they're not ready, the system is so powerful and has so much So much there that it'll create real discord and they can be, they can be, you can get suffer tremendously after that. So it's testament to the power of our nervous system. Wow. So fascinating. What I hear you talking about, we've talked about a little bit on the show is like repetition, compulsion, how we end up repeating behavior that harmed us.

Um, in our own lives, you know, and you gave the example of infidelity, rejection. Another example, kind of going back to alcoholism is if you grew up with an alcoholic father, you know, you swear, I will never be like that and don't want that in my life. And then years later in your life, you end up. becoming alcoholic and like we talked about, there's obviously the biological component, the predisposition, but there's so much more going on there.

And, uh, so it's, it's really, really fascinating. And one of the interesting statistics that have all has always blown my mind is how people who come from broken, especially divorced families, we're less likely to get married. We're more likely to get divorced. Um, I've even seen some data, I don't have a lot on this, but I've seen some data that says if you were.

You know, in a family where mom or dad cheated on the other, you're more likely to have an affair yourself, um, which obviously is so scary for people who want, you know, a beautiful, faithful marriage. And so it's um, it's just fascinating to see that these things that we go through in our lives are programmed into us, even perhaps down to our DNA.

And unless we kind of course correct, unless we reprogram, which I believe is totally possible, uh, we'll end up going down those similar paths that we truly fear that we're doomed to go down. Even though we don't want that. So I hear you talking about all these things that are super relevant to, to, um, to people like us, right?

And that's the ACE study. It's a very, you know, well known, you can look it up, study on adverse childhood events and what that actually does to our health. Yes, our patterns like you just mentioned, but also just our health. People who experience one or more than one, obviously as the number increases with the number of adverse childhood experiences, the rate at which their health declines is more intense the more you experience adverse events.

Because There are more trauma that our body cannot normalize from. And so that study shows, yeah, that they'll have more Again, remember exactly the, the diseases or illnesses that it states, but, um, they'll have more, uh, you know, sleep disturbances and some common one and asthma and, uh, chronic illnesses and headaches and, you know, migraines and, and various different things.

Um, the, the percentage will be higher in the people who have broken families or any type of adverse childhood experience. Um, so yeah, it increases our rate of patterning. Um, To speak to that too for, for my personal, right? Yeah. I'm getting married and all I want is a, is a, I want to be a faithful, you know, uh, husband and, and I don't want to, uh, you know, do any harm to, to my wife or to my, to my kids or repeat any patterns of, and, uh.

And of course, I didn't even know at that point when I'm getting married really of, of some of the, um, some of the infidelities and different things in my, my family history. But, uh, you know, I had a real struggle personally, uh, to be open and honest with everybody, you know, with pornography for years. And, uh, and it was a real hard struggle and battle.

Um, and it really affected all parts of my life. And. When I get, you know, when I'm getting married, I'm like, you know, I'm, I had been, you know, clean for a while. And I'm like, I'm never doing this again. I'm so done. And I'm over that. Right. And I'm thinking, you know, it's all smooth sailing and, you know, and, uh, sure enough, it creeps back into my marriage and, uh, it creates real, you know, I can see the immediate effects on particularly my wife.

Um, and, uh, You know, the patterns and actually a perfect example of how our body traps things. So this was actually just last night, uh, my wife, we're sitting at the dinner table. She's, uh, doing totally fine. Uh, and then all of a sudden she's like, I have this severe pain in my neck and it's like killing me.

And it stayed there for, uh, you know, a couple of hours and she's like, I can't do anything right now. So I evaluated her quickly. I said, you know what, uh, you need to do a, there's a technique Callahan, a psychologist, uh, came up with a technique of helping using tapping techniques to activate different parts of the system to clear traumatic events and clear trauma from the body.

And it's a wonderful technique anyway. I said, you know what, you need to do a trauma release from that time. Uh, when. I, that you found out and we talked about and, uh, it came to the, came to light that I was struggling with pornography again in our marriage. And she goes, wow, that's, that's crazy. And she goes ahead and we do the technique, which takes all of a few minutes.

And, uh,

she's like, I mean, I've experienced this a number of times, but that's crazy. It's entirely gone. And it was 100 percent I was gone for a few hours and she was like, it's totally gone. And she knows how much sense that makes, but she goes, wow, because we've been working through the repercussions of, and that's an unfaithfulness on my part to our marriage.

And I learned that that was. You know, in my, in my past, my, my grandfather and other issues going back and, um, and man, yeah. And, and there was no part of me that wanted to do any of that, uh, but it was a weakness and, uh, sure enough, it showed up again. And you know, I always want to be like. You know, I got this.

I can do this. It's no big deal. Uh, you know, I won't do it again. As I said before, say, mm, yeah, we can do that for only so much period of time before somehow we break down, uh, whether or not it's emotionally, whether or not it's physically, um, or we get really sick. Um, and so, uh, so yeah, that, that was just a powerful example of.

Of how really hurtful things that we go through can, can present with physical symptoms and then They can actually go away almost instantaneously. And I see that every day in my practice, which is pretty wild. That is so wild. Well, man, thank you so much for sharing so vulnerably about, you know, those past juggles and wow, like I'm blown away and So fascinated by your practice and how you're helping people.

And I have a million and one questions, but, um, it's clear, you know, you anticipate some of the questions so well, just this connection between our bodies and our emotions. Like there's clearly the connection there when, you know, we go through trauma in life that doesn't have a physical component in the immediate, but it certainly affects our bodies.

And you gave numerous examples there, which is, is amazing. Um, You've already spoken to this, but I want to give you a chance to mention it further, just if, you know, outside of your own story, how you've seen people who come from broken families, you know, struggle with physical, even pain or physical symptoms.

Again, you've spoken to this already, you mentioned the ACE research as well, but I'm just curious if you've seen anything in your own practice of what drove me. Even further to, uh, and I think that's why I needed to wait to, I needed to be a physical therapist who honed his skills with his hands and honed his techniques with how to address physical side of symptoms.

And I worked extremely hard on that. Um, and I was gifted. I worked under somebody who was really skilled with his hands for a good number of years, and I learned a ton and through that work. Because, not to boast, but I, I was told, and, and I saw good results. So I knew that I had some skill there, but there were plenty of people I couldn't make any change with whatsoever.

And they would come in every week with the same exact pain. Might get better for a couple of hours, maybe a few days eventually, but they're racked with it at time and time again. And I said, You know, I went into physical therapy to help people. I love the human body. I love learning about it. And I love it even more now that I'm learning even deeper.

The more I learn, the more I love it. It's amazing. And when I started seeing these people, I'm like And I take my work as ministry. As, you know, God sends me my clients. for me to assist in their life. And I had these people that would come time and time, I couldn't do anything to help them. And I said, there's got to be more.

And I started my practice. And then I finally started learning applied kinesiology. And I started having people with the techniques that I was learning refer to me because they would come in and they would say, I'd say, alright, you know, tell me a little bit about your story, what's going on. And I said, well, I don't really have anything physically wrong with me that I know of, really, but I have a lot of trauma in my past, and I, I just can't really function.

I can't get a job, I, I, I just can't function. And I'm like, I can realize I'm a physical therapist, right? And I'm like, Lord, I guess, I guess maybe they missed the physical component of the therapist. Well, you're obviously referred to by so and so because I helped them with similar things. I was like, all right, well, let's go.

And, and, and I learned through those people coming to me that yes, doing work through the physical, you can actually help. And, uh, so to back up just a little bit before I really started getting into that, there was, um, there was this one girl, uh, that stands out in my mind very much. And, uh, she came in, I did not work with her initially.

I didn't do the initial evaluation. One of my coworkers did. And, uh, I saw her, I think the second or third time and, uh, she would have. She wouldn't be able to walk. She could barely stand on her own two legs. She went from a very very active, functioning girl, to, I can't move. She would, uh, you know, lie down on the table, and you would muscle test the legs and stuff, and, you know, like, you have strength.

You know, you have strength. You go up and stand, and she'd like collapse. And you'd have to support her. And some days, uh, you'd have to have two people holding her, and she'd be trembling. Her legs would total tremble. And, uh, it was just like heartbreak. And it could, uh, in that setting where I was, I really couldn't, I really couldn't do that much.

Well. Uh, there was one evening where I was all alone with, with that, uh, in the, in the clinic. So it was quieter. So she could kind of focus. And uh, I had just started learning some of the applied kinesiology stuff and I was doing my business part time. And so I was there and uh, I said, you know, do you mind if we do some, some muscle testing?

And she was like, yeah, whatever, whatever works, you know, that's, and uh, yeah, anyway, I came up with a few things and I said. I said, you know, what's going, what's going on at home, you know, you know, what's, what's, what's bothering you so much at home, what's, what's the struggle there, uh, and she started, she, you know, started really breaking down and her parents were in the middle of a divorce and it came out of nowhere, I guess.

And uh, And they were in the middle of the hardship of a divorce. And I was like, oh. It's like my heart just, you know, totally went out to her. Um, and at that time, there was really nothing at that time that I knew to be able to do to actually help her in that case. I just knew like, man, you know, we can do X, Y, Z, any number of things, and I did everything we could.

Some improvement. Um, and then she'd come back in again, totally just, and then she started getting a little bit better and, uh, and he started seeing the direct connection with her environmental stability that she would report and how she could actually use her legs again. And then she might come in with a huge flare and there was again, you know, some kind of discord there.

So it was, and it was incredible. My first, probably my first. Extreme case that was like night and day between what was going on fully functioning, totally fine, and then something hit her. Bam. Can't use my legs. It was a really sad case, but she did eventually kind of get through it. Um, and you know, you know, at the end of the day, did she get through it for now?

Yeah, but chances are, uh, she still has a lot of that hurt in there. Uh, she's learned how to navigate it, which is an important survival tactic. Um, deep, true healing is what we, what we probably want more because it allows us actually freedom from that and, and to be free from the bondage of, of that, of that hurt, that wound, uh, and allow that to, to, to heal.

So that was one, that was one really big thing for me. And then I wrote down another one. What was the other one? Oh yeah, so early on too, I was like, I had this client who, like every October, so three years in a row, she would come in from October to like the end of November, come in for like six weeks treatments.

And by the third year, it was the same exact thing. And I was looking, looking at her chart, I'm like, it's like the same time of year. So this was before I got into any of this. This was just, I was, you know, a regular physical therapist. I turned and looked at her and I was like, Did anything happen this time of year a couple years ago?

You know, I started seeing you three years ago and you came last year for the same thing about the same time and you're coming back this year. You know, just wondering, did anything happen? Because you could have seasonal triggers. You know, in the autumn time of year, the leaves change, everything changes in the air.

That was her trigger. And again, she broke down at that time and said, yeah, she got her husband left her. And I was like, wow. And that was three years prior to me even getting into any of this and I was like, and you know, she let it out. And the thing about that was that the therapy manual therapy technique that I was doing with her actually helped her to release some of that.

She wept, she cried, she spoke it out. And I was doing just normal manual therapy, uh, release of certain nerves and muscles and. cranial bones and different things I was doing. Uh, and she really processed. Anyway, I was there at that clinic for three years after that. And I didn't see her again. So, um, it was just neat to see that too.

It's like, yeah.

Unbelievable. Like I think some people listening right now are maybe having a hard time believing, honestly, believing this. And it's . You can't actually fully, and I believe you believe it, and, and I a hundred percent, I'm like really? Um, understanding of people who are like, dude, you're nuts. I, that's crazy.

Talk. And I'm totally understanding that because it is, it sounds nuts until you experience it. And, you know, as soon as somebody experiences it and says, My pain is entirely gone after you just did that and you didn't touch my arm. It's not until that time that they come back and they say, You know what, I haven't thought about what happened, what came up and um There was actually a whole lot more to that time frame that I didn't even realize that that day I didn't allow myself to get to, but there's actually a whole lot more.

And I was like, great, you don't even need to tell me, but that's great. You know, but, and, and, and not only that, now that I am in it, you know, I see, uh, One of the other women that I had treated for multiple years and, uh, another case that I was just, I felt totally Useless almost. I could be, you know, she loved me as a therapist.

She said, you're amazing. And in the back of my head I'm like, I, I am so thankful that you think I'm doing you such good and I'm here for you. But I know I could, somebody or something or some other thing could do you so much better. Because, uh, and, uh, she was just stuck in a pattern and she had a lot of hurt and IBS, colon issues, and all of these digestive things, they're so commonly linked.

to indigestible situations. We talk about stuff like, oh yeah, our digestion's off. Um, but like if you have a real bad disease in the digestive tract, it's normally linked to some type of indigestible something that happened in your life. You can't digest a particular event or a whole situation in your life.

I can't comprehend that. That's just too bad for me to even put a. Um, and anyway, so yeah, there's, there's examples just left and right that, that just are incredible. Yeah, no, we need to tell you the camera, I think it's fascinating. It's so good. And my goodness. And I think one resource I would recommend for people who want to learn more about a lot of this, I know maybe not specifically your field, but just overall how trauma affects our bodies and emotional wounds is the body keeps the score by Bessel van der Kolk.

Like that will kind of give you the scientific proof, a much deeper explanation than we can do. Expand your thought process of how these things actually affect us. I think everyone listening, you know, unless your life has been like pain free, which there's very few people like that, uh, can probably point to something in our life that resonates with one of the stories that you told, you know, just like physical ailments or pain that connects to some sort of emotional trauma or, yeah, and in a lot of cases we haven't been freed from that, unfortunately.

And I, I wanted to talk to you a bit about just this whole, um, tension when it comes to healing. So on one end. There's maybe this unrealistic goal that some of us have that we want, like, our life to be this utopia, to be this perfection, to have all the pain ridden from us and just be able to function perfectly.

Like, obviously that's not realistic, but we somewhat have a desire for that, right? But on the other end, there's plenty, probably more people who just give in to resignation. Just think like, well, my life is always going to be this way, like we said before. And all I can really do is just survive. All I can really do is just get by.

I'm curious, um, what's like that realistic goal or expectation between those two extremes? Like, how can we, you know, on one hand not despair and give in to like, well, this is hopeless, but on the other hand not, maybe hope that all of our problems in life and our pain will be, um, resolved, though there is a possibility, I firmly believe that there is a possibility that a lot of it can be.

So I'm just curious, like, what's the right goal, expectation? It can be a fine line in a way or, and it's very personal too, um, depending on, you know, what you're suffering with, um, you know, some chronic diseases and stuff. Yes, you're not, you might not get back to like 100 percent where you have a super strong immune system, let's say, or you have a super robust um, uh, system that helps keep you from anxiety or you have a super robust system that, that you're never depressed ever again.

Um, yeah, there is a expectation or a realization that, you know, life is not without any hardship. And as I briefly mentioned before, I think a lot of our society at this point, it's so geared towards comfort, towards convenience, towards no pain, that we actually, we tell ourselves and we begin to believe that That's actually possible and I think some of us are starting to realize that if everything is entirely convenient and 100 percent done for us, we become like, you know, dwindling, you know, Can't barely function and do anything for ourselves anymore.

We don't know how to do anything because everything's done for us. Um so II think it's important in the healing process to remember that it takes work. It's actually a never ending process of of living right. So, living is experiencing. We're we're the center of our beings is our heart Right. Our heart is is the center of it all.

We're we're made for love Right. We're we're made for relationship We're made for connection We're made for unity And you know as a as a catholic too, you know, we're made to unite back to our heavenly creator Who created us out of love? and Uh, which is also why when we experience hurt from a loved one or from a relationship where there should be love, those hurts hurt a whole lot deeper because they hit us at our core.

Yeah, our heart suffers greatly, not by those people who we don't really care about or don't care much about us. Those don't really hurt us all that much. We can just kind of shrug 'em off and it's not really a big deal actually. But when those hurts come from the ones that we've loved or should love us, our parents, or our loved ones of any other nature, those are deep wounds.

I also deeply believe, because of the way I see people come in and out of my practice, those who know that we cannot really rely on man, because we'll always be disappointed. We are all Imperfect human beings And if we seek for full connection and full satisfaction out of somebody else any other human One it's not fair to that other human Because they can't possibly provide everything that you need And two it's not fair to yourself because you'll always be disappointed So there's You A whole, a spot, a center of our heart that really only somebody outside of our fallen human being can fill something, somebody greater than us, who, who, at the end of the day, you know, loves us into being to experience.

Yes, there's hardships, but to experience the growth that can come from that. Um, so there's that expectation of. It will never be perfect. If we're thinking that, oh, it'll be everything will be totally fine. I'll get through this Point in my life and then boom, you know, it'll be great. Yes. That's an unrealistic expectation there will always be hardships, but What we want to be able to do is to be able to tolerate the hardships to be able to respond to the hardships not necessarily with so much anger and reactionary Ness But maybe with, okay, I really don't like the fact that, you know, that for whatever reason my, um, sibling, uh, is going behind my back and talking terrible things about me.

No, I don't like that. But I don't need to respond like what I used to respond to. I can take that suffering and I can actually be okay with it. Not just tell myself I'm okay with it. My entire body can be like, okay. I'm okay that they're talking bad about me. I'm okay that other people don't think I'm great.

I'm okay with people thinking that I'm really not a good guy. It's like, but if you're doing the best you can, you're doing the best you can. So there's like that expectation of, yes, it takes hard work, but what you're doing is you can change your reaction to what's in front of you. There is a possibility, there is an openness to changing your reaction, which then changes your life.

It's first an outlook, an acceptance of where you're at, and then having a realistic outlook, saying, Okay, and honestly, if you have a realistic outlook, the level of improvement is actually normally even greater than what your realistic outlook is. If you're open to that healing, and I think that's the next step is, is openness and accepting reality, then being willing to do something about it and to change your situation.

Um, and then to be open to the healing, whatever that might mean for you. So good. Yeah. And I love the whole idea of, you know, post traumatic growth. you know, being stuck in the past and always being like handicapped in a sense. And even if, you know, let's say physical ailments can't be perfectly cured, there is a way to kind of move through them and live with them.

That is truly healing where you can become a more whole functional person, even if the, you know, that particular, uh, ailment, illness, trauma, whatever, isn't totally gone. Or maybe a better way to say it is you still have the scars from it because we can't remove the scars. We can't remove, you know, fully.

Maybe all the negative effects, but you can grow some mastery around it. You can heal the root cause to where it's not really affecting you as much anymore. And I've seen that in my life and the lives of other people who've, you know, worked with people like you've been through trauma therapy, you know, maybe one minute they're depressed, they're cutting, they're like suicidal.

And then they work on healing those root. Wounds next minute. They're, they're good. And that, you know, they're not tempted to cut. They're not tempted to suicide. They're not constantly depressed. Like, yes, maybe there's some seasonal component of depression that they have to kind of learn to manage. But overall, they're in like a much healthier spot.

And so I think, you know, like you're saying, the goal is to be healthier, more whole, more functional, not to be like living in this, like we said, utopia where nothing can go wrong. And, you know, our life is so comfortable that There's no pain. It's like that. That's a joke. Like we can't have that exactly.

And one book that I haven't read yet, maybe you have, and I've heard a lot of people rave about is the whole comfort crisis book. So comfort crisis, just talking about how, yeah, it's apparently it's a great book. Just saying how, you know, our, the comforts in our lives have honestly ruined us as a culture in many ways.

Like we don't know how to do hard things anymore. And, uh, we really need to get away from that. And so there's, yeah, a lot going on there. Um, definitely a lot to dissect and I'm sure, um, we could have, man, a whole another conversation about a lot of this. I want to give you a chance to respond, but I do also want to hear about your therapy, about, um, QNRT and how that's helped people.

Yeah. Where do, where do I even start? So yeah, quantum neurological reset therapy was an answer to prayer for me. Uh, as I briefly mentioned before, I had people more than. More than a few people coming to me for, I have had this trauma and it's having this effect on me and could you help? Uh, and I started getting more that I said, God, if you want me to work with these people, um, I believe there's more that I could possibly do for them.

And if that's the case, could you help me learn it or help show me where I can learn this? So I was at a seminar, uh, and I heard QNRT as an acronym, and he only mentioned it briefly, and when the lecturer mentioned it, I felt like a lightning bolt hit me, and I was like, oh, that's what I'm studying next!

And I had no idea what it was. So I wrote it down in my notebook and I was like, That's what I'm studying next. My wife loves to tell people that. Yeah, he called me at lunch and was like, Hey honey! She's like, how's your seminar? I was like, it's great. I was like, yeah, but I know what I'm studying next. I'm so excited.

She goes, uh, that's awesome. How's the course? And I was, it's great. But this anyway, she's like, what is it? And I said, it's Q and R T. She goes, what's that? I was like, I don't know. What's it stand for? I don't know, but I know it's going to be great. She said, you're crazy. Anyway, I went home and we looked it up together.

I didn't look it up until I got home. Uh, and it was an answer to prayer because it addresses adverse Events that we go through and how it impacts our nervous system directly and how those experiences what we go through sometimes get trapped in our nervous system and create patterns of response and those responses can create imbalances in our nervous system.

It takes foundationally, it takes, you know, quick question for you, joy, you know, what is it? And don't overthink it. That coordinates every cell in your entire body. I guess it would be, yeah, your nervous system, your brain. Exactly. Your nervous system and your brain. They coordinate 30 trillion cells. And do you know how your body's digesting your food right now?

Do you know where it's sending the proteins? Where it's sending all the carbohydrates and how it's doing all that? No. Thank God. Thank God, no. It happens out of habit. So millions of things are happening every minute in our body. In our nervous system that communicates trillions of cells together and tons of messages are being sent at lightning speeds through our body to keep us alive and to allow us to function.

And that amazing nervous system that coordinates all these things. It can't differentiate between a physical stress. stress, an emotional stress, or a chemical stress, because the process in which they communicate are the same neurotransmitters, the same chemicals in our body, the same hormones, all those things are the same, they just communicated as stress.

So because of that, QNRT takes an evaluation of the brain and nervous system, and you can, see patterns of where different stresses, Affect our nervous system and, you know, you can even dial down as to timeframe period. Um, you know, when was this an issue in your nervous system? Okay. It was also related to a viral reaction in your body.

Oh yeah, I had Lyme's really bad when I was five. Okay, yeah, it was linked to that Lyme's. And, oh yeah, that was the same time frame that I experienced this other thing. Um, and it, so it helps us to tie together the nervous system and how different things have affected it. Um, and then finally, it responds to, as I mentioned, the lie detection test.

It responds to lies or truth. And So if we want to let go of something, but our nervous system is like, no, not ready to let go. And you said, no, I'd like to let go of that. We say, all right, let's go. So your brainstem, let's say, right? So we live so much of our life in the limbic system. Limbic system is our reactionary survival mechanism.

Right? And fight or flight, right? Everybody knows sympathetic response, fight or flight. So much of us are in a sympathetic overload in today's society, more than ever, I think, for many more reasons than one. But sympathetic overload, if we're meant to function, let's just pick a random number at 10, a level of 10 stress, okay, is right here.

And we're functioning here, we're doing okay, right? As soon as something blows us over our threshold. Our body can't regulate back down and that inability to regulate back down is trauma to the body. That trauma can get lodged into our nervous system. And if you live up here for too long, you get totally wiped out.

You get drained and you start failing in many more ways than one. And that nervous system just can't take it anymore. And you're more reactive, uh, you, you can't focus, you know, different, there are different ways of different ways of reacting. Some of it is sleeplessness. It all depends on exactly where in your system it has affected you and it would tells you then how it affects us.

And it's because there are patterns in the nervous system. You know, when you hear a sudden sound, that's triggered through a particular part of the brain. Um, when you smell something, that's triggered through a different part of the brain. And all of those are normal neurological pathways that our brain functions, our body functions.

So we take all those things for granted, but when you start realizing that, when you smell something, you're like, Oh, that instantaneously brings me back to my grandmother's room when I was a kid. That, that was, that must have been, I don't know. Uh, a perfume that she used or something in, in her room that, that, that makes me think of my grandma.

You know, we've all had instances like that where you smell bacon cookies and you're like, Oh, those were the cookies that, uh, that grandpa always made for Christmas after, you know, Christmas dinner or dessert. And you know, all of these things, we have things that can trigger us back or the other way around.

You know, people smell something and they're like, Oh. My ex husband used to wear that, I hate that smell, or something like that. You know, people say these things all the time, but we don't realize that, well that's partially because it's triggering that part of the brain, and that part of the brain is still holding on to that hurt.

If you can clear that trigger out, which is how we use cranial nerves, which are the closest thing to the brain. Um, and we use the, the eyes, which are so powerful for our, for our nervous system. The first thing to, to grow from the brain in utero. And we use all these things to activate. And reprogram, that's what we end up doing, is reprogramming your response, as you just mentioned a moment ago, your response to certain triggers.

So let's say, no, it's not all things that are in the past. Let's say somebody's going through something right now in their life. They're going through something right now and they can't escape that relationship. They're a child who lives in the family's house and there's actually no place for them to go right now.

Okay, so that's not something that we're dealing with in the past. All these things are not just past. It can be very much present. So no, we're not going to change, you can't change that relationship. You can't change that situation that you're stuck in. So sometimes the issues at home, they have symptoms when they're at home.

They're really anxious at home. They can't sleep at home or something like that. And then all of a sudden they go maybe someone else's house and all of a sudden they get a great night's sleep and the kids like. Well, that was weird. Well, all of a sudden, every time they go to school, their headache kind of gets a little bit better.

Or vice versa. Sometimes the stress is at school. They're being bullied at school. They're not telling anybody or something. Or you have a teacher who's really mean to you, a different kind of bullying, something like that. And they're not telling anybody. But every time they go to school, they get a headache.

They end up calling the nurse every week, pretty much, and they get taken home. And then you find out later, okay, they're dealing with bullying. So there are certain situations that we can't necessarily avoid currently, but what we can do, and that's what that's what Q and R T has been able to do is change the nervous system's response to it.

And that's powerful. So no, the bullying may not stop or the situation between your parents at home and the moment might not stop or, uh, any number of situations you can actually change. Maybe you. In your time right now, but what you can do is say I'm accepting of this right now, and I'm not allowing it to Not allow me to move forward Or I'm I'm no longer holding on to that and keeping it from allowing me to do XYZ So so your response and And the fun thing is too, sometimes the spouses of people come in and they're like, What do you do to my wife?

Like, she's totally different. Or, man, my husband, he hasn't done that in years. Or like, he's just happy. Oh, one other instance. So I had this, had this kid and Apparently he screamed bloody murder every time they gave him a bath. He was like two years old or something, a year and a half or two years old. I mean, his whole life, gave him a bath, screamed bloody murder.

I didn't know this. I was treating him for something totally different. And I was like, Hey, he needs to take a bath in some essential oils. I love essential oils also. And, uh, and the parents like, Hmm, yeah, he screams bloody murder. I was like, okay, let's see if we can do something that might help this out or whatever.

So we did some treatment and, uh, And then the next day she sends me a picture of him playing as happy as can be in the bathtub the next day. And she was like, this is a miracle. And I was, you know, it's another experience of the situation didn't change. He's still taking a bath. Nothing else changed in that situation.

That's a simple benign situation of a bath, right? Uh, but even benign things can trigger us somehow that trigger was linked to something else that was more. hurtful than just the bath. And that trigger was what his body was going into fight or flight. It was going into, ah, I don't know. I got to survive.

I'm freaking out. And the child's response is to scream. Sometimes. Adult responses to screen too. And, you know, sometimes we're in total protective freak out mode. We all know our nervous system's response to stress, right? If we're about to give a talk or, you know, public speaking, and we get a little nervous in our stomach or, you know, we get a little raised heartbeat or we start sweating a little bit more.

You know, all these things are normal responses we experience every day, right? But sometimes we don't realize that triggers that shouldn't. Make that happen are making us happen. And that's what anxiety and anticipatory anxiety, all those things are is that, well, the situation right now is actually okay, but you're interpreting it as not.

Okay, you're interpreting it as I'm going to die and I need to do something about this. And so you're freaking out and that's where you're just changing our response to the same exact situation that that yellow car just drove up the driveway and. It's okay. It's, you know, it's not a taxi cab who's delivering the guy who came in and raped you.

You're, you are now okay with the fact that a yellow car can drive up the driveway and you don't have to respond with a pattern of, oh, that means bad stuff's going to happen. Not every yellow car driving up means that. And so that's where you're actually changing your response to the same exact trigger.

Um, and allowing your body to let go of those patterns. Because, uh, we're trained. Nervous system learns our name. It learns many more things than we even give it credit for. It learns to react in certain ways. Like, for instance, we know, you know, when we're walking down the street. And we get a little kind of creepy feeling.

And you don't quite realize why maybe yet, but then you kind of see somebody in the corner of your eye, you're like, it's a little off putting. I'm not sure what's going on there, but I'm not going to stay to find out what's going on. I'm just going to kind of go this way. Yeah. Um, you don't know why, you don't need to know why, but for whatever reason, your system was aware of something not so good going on down there.

Um. And, you know, those are things that our nervous system knows and it tells us by activating our sympathetic nervous system. But when that gets awry, normal things activate our survival mechanism that you might not want to happen because that can really debilitate our life. Um, and we want to actually accept what's happened in the past or in the present and You know, no longer react in the same way, but change our reactions and heal from them.

So I don't really know where that just went, but no, it's super helpful. No, in those false alarms that sometimes, you know, set us off, you know, being able to disarm them and move through them. That makes so much sense. So wow. You truly, Dr. Gunn, you have a PhD in this stuff. You truly do, um, on many levels and, uh, well, thank you for explaining it and going through it.

I'm sure we could talk so much more about all of this, but I want to make sure if someone's interested in working with you, uh, what do you offer and how do they get that? My PhD is an in person. Only, um, technique, uh, and so I offer that I'm in New York, in Pauling, New York, and I have a practice right out of my house, and, uh, I'm here full time now, and I do offer some virtual treatments generally, not for QNRT, but other work.

Um, another book, um, which is The Emotion Code. Second to, and that's also a great book. Um, Dr. Nelson wrote that book and it goes into some treatment of, uh, how the emotions affect the body and that type of work I do virtually. I do mostly in person just because it's a real connection and a real, uh, a different level of treatment because we can do, because I'm a physical therapist.

So there's a lot of hands on, a lot of cranial. A lot of, a lot of implementation of hands on work with the, uh, with the emotional work. Because again, the body doesn't differentiate the two. So they kind of go hand in hand. And, uh, 98 percent of my clientele I do QNRT with now as, as part of the treatment and then help facilitate healing through other avenues that I've been gifted to learn to.

So those are really in person. And then I do, uh, Um, the virtual work that I do, I keep minimal for the most part, uh, but there can be hugely helpful things. Um, and there, there are examples of how that works as well, but, um, I don't, I don't really have much of a presence on social media or anything like that.

My website is pretty minimal, uh, but the best way to probably contact me is, is by email. Uh, chris at be not afraid pt. com, which I'm sure you'll also put in the link and all that. And, and also my, my business number, um, I'm reasonably good at getting voicemails back or, uh, I don't answer generally, but I'll return voicemails.

And uh, so, uh, calling the business number there is another great way to get in touch with me if there are any questions or curiosities on, on treatment, anything like that. Love it. No, so good. Thanks for mentioning all that. And we'll definitely link to be not afraid pt. com. Is that right? And then, uh, we'll yeah, put all the, the number in the show notes and everything like that.

So thank you so much Dr. Gannon. One thing I wanted to mention to people, if you're intrigued by this, you know, setting up a call, you know, doing some sort of a consult, I know you offer that too. Could be a good next step. Um, I know people will travel. To, you know, different therapists or physical therapists in order to get the benefits that they offer because there's not many people doing this stuff.

And so that is certainly a possibility, especially if you're, you know, in that area of the country or you can, you know, get there, um, to do some sort of treatment. So I know there's a lot of possibilities there. So I just encourage people like think outside the box if it's something where you're thinking like, wow, I could really benefit from this.

But oh, it's. far away, or, you know, maybe I couldn't afford it right now. I would just challenge you to think creatively and figure out a way that maybe you could, um, potentially work with Dr. again in the future, they end up just, there's nowhere else to turn for them. And they've, they've tried many things.

Yeah. And, and so I have many clients that travel many, several hours, uh, to come in and I'm. In the near future, we'll be setting up a better situation where I can, uh, to accommodate more people, um, so that we can have longer periods of time. So Dr. Turner, who was the founder of QNRT, he has a place down in Roswell, Georgia.

And he is, um, he is set up so that he can have people stay in a hotel nearby and do intensives. So he does three, four, five day intensives where you get a lot of work done in a short, you know, in a several days back to back. And that's something that I'm, I'm working towards as well. Um, but yes, traveling sometimes, you know, I only need several sessions sometimes to make huge progress.

Love that. No, I, yeah. And if it works, man, it works. And it's better than spending years in an office with, you know, someone who may have good intentions, but they're just the, that method of therapy, that method of trying to help them. It just isn't one tidbit for people to, if you don't see some improvement with what you're doing with somebody, um, you know, we can be generous and say three, two, three months.

If you're not seeing any change, maybe. Explore other options. There you go. Second opinion about, at the very least, schedule, consult, phone call, something. Same thing for years. If it's just not making much of a change, there's, there's better things out. Yeah. It's waste of time, waste of money. Individually.

There is healing, there is growth. And don't allow that to say, well, I've already tried. There's more. Never. Stop seeking for, for healing. Never Stop seeking love and truth. Hmm. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much again for your time and your expertise. You're really beautiful and, um, and we all need healing in our lives.

Uh, so Of course, couldn't agree more. I want to give you the last word. What final advice or encouragement would you give to everyone listening, especially people who feel just stuck in life? They're going through pain, especially because of maybe dysfunction at home, or their parents getting divorced.

What final advice or encouragement would you give to them? You know, it would be hard for me to say anything other than the words of a dying man, a client, who said to his family, uh, embrace the cross. Embrace your suffering and when you are not feeling loved and you don't believe you're loved by anyone, know that you are loved and that you are cherished.

Can't get better than that. So, uh, never stop seeking it. For love you will find if you seek.

Again, if you're interested in learning more about how Dr. Gen can help you, I just encourage you to schedule a consult with him, send him an email, give him a call, whatever it takes to just learn more about how he can help you. Now, if you're not ready for that, I wanted to let you know that we have a free video course on trauma that you can go through right now if you wanted to.

It's called Broken to Whole, Tactics to Heal from Your Parents Divorce or Broken Marriage. In just two hours, you're going to learn from a trauma therapist who has over 17 years of experience. experience treating trauma. You're going to learn things like why the trauma of your parents divorce or family dysfunction is so damaging.

Uh, you're going to be able to identify the root of your struggles, which is often trauma as you'll learn in the course, you're going to feel validated and less alone in your struggles. You'll understand and better be able to navigate your emotions. You're also going to build healthier relationships and a better life.

And perhaps most of all, you're going to avoid passing your brokenness onto the people that you love the most. And so if you want to get, Access to that free course. Again, it's free. Just go to restored ministry.com/broken to whole. Again, restored ministry.com/broken to whole, or just click on the link in the show notes.

You can sign up for free on that page, and then just start watching the videos again, restored ministry.com/broken to whole, or just click on the link in the show. That wraps up this show. If you know someone who's struggling because of their parents divorce or broken family, share this podcast with them.

Seriously, if you want to, take like 30 seconds right now to just shoot them a text message with this episode or another. And you can just say something like, hey, I listened to this podcast. Made me think of you and everything you have been through with your family. Just wanted to share. No pressure to, you know, actually listen.

Um, but just wanted to send it your way. Something like that will go a long way. And I promise you, they will be grateful even if they don't say much. right now. It is going to help them. I wish someone would have done that with me years ago. In closing, always remember, you're not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And always remember the words of C. S. Lewis, who said, you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#110: 10 Ways to Make Therapy Fail or Succeed for You | Clare Eckard

If there were 10 things you can do to make therapy succeed (or fail), would you want to know them? I know I would. 

In this episode, a therapist joins us to share those tips, plus: 

• The goal of therapy and the temptation to idealize healing

• A tool for dealing with troubling thoughts

• The struggle to put words to your own emotions and experiences of brokenness

If you’ve ever been to therapy and it hasn’t gone well or you’re considering therapy but you’re unsure how to make it successful, this episode is for you.

Schedule a Free Consult at St. Raphael Counseling

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As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

There are 10 things that you can do or not do in order to make therapy succeed or fail. And in this episode, we're going to break those down with my guest who is a therapist. Plus we talk about the goal of therapy and our tendency to idolize healing. We also talk about a simple tool that you can use.

My guest shares a simple tool that you can use to deal with troubling thoughts. We also talk about how all of us experienced that struggle of. Putting into words, our emotions and our wounds. You're also just gonna get some really awesome quotes from this episode. And we also talk about what to do if you're dealing with a situation where you're not happy with your current therapist.

And so if you've ever been to therapy and it didn't go very well, or maybe you're considering going to therapy and you wanna make the most of it, this episode is for you. You're really gonna benefit from the content in it. And so stay with us.

Welcome to The Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents divorce, separation, or broken marriage, so you can feel whole again and break the cycle.

I'm your host, Joey Panarelli, and this is episode 110. We're so thrilled that so many of you have found this podcast helpful, and even healing, for tons of feedback. Graciela said this, she said, Just listen to the podcast, man, it's great. I hope many young people will listen. I wish I would have had resources like this.

When I was growing up, Karen said this, she said, what an excellent podcast. I've listened to three episodes so far, and I can relate to so much of this. There's so much isolation with being a child of divorce. And I feel I've found a community with this podcast. Again, we're so happy that we've been able to guide you to help you in your journey.

And if you want to tell us how we've been able to help you, we'd love to hear it. Just go to restored ministry. Again, restored ministry. com slash testimony, or just click on the link in the show notes. My guest today is Claire Eckerd. Claire is a psychotherapist with a master's degree in clinical mental health counseling from Franciscan University of Steubenville with two concentrations, crisis and trauma counseling and Christian counseling.

She works at St. Raphael Counseling with teens and adults presenting with various mental health questions. struggles. Uh, the team of therapists at St. Raphael Counseling serves individuals ages four and up, as well as couples, families across the front range area of Colorado with telehealth and in person options.

Uh, St. Raphael Counseling also provides testing for students who may have a learning attention or autism spectrum disorder. And so in this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone who's been listening to this podcast for a while knows.

That this is not a strictly religious podcast. And so wherever you're at, I'm glad that you're here. If you don't believe in God, again, if you were to take out the God parts, if you're going to take out the faith parts, you're still going to benefit from this episode. And so my challenge to you would be just listen with an open mind.

And again, I know you're going to benefit from it. And so with that, here's my chat with Claire.

Claire, it's so good to have you on the show. Welcome. Thank you so much. It's an honor, honor to be here. Likewise, honored to have you. I want to go into your backstory a little bit, but starting out, I'm just curious. Why did you become a therapist? Mm, million dollar question. Um, yeah, so it really was a calling, which like, In faith terms is like, yeah, that movement in my heart for, um, God, just wanting to use my talents in this way and that passion to serve others in this way.

And it really took a few years to take the leap to go to grad school. Cause I was honestly kind of intimidated by it. Um, and just the ideas in my head of what I thought it would be like, but the doors just kept opening. So here I am, and I'm really happy. Beautiful. I love it. And tell me a little bit about your training and maybe the type of therapy that you do now.

So you went to my alma mater, Franciscan University for grad school. Is that right? Yeah. And yeah, it's a clinical mental health counseling program is what it's called. Um, so we're accredited by the state. Um, and then we're also a Catholic university. It's actually Kind of the only in person Catholic, like, authentically Catholic university that has this kind of program.

Um, which is why I chose it. Um, and they also had a concentration in crisis and trauma and Christian counseling, which was really neat as well. Beautiful. Okay. I love that. And in your work now, is there a particular therapy model that you follow? Or how does that work? I'm not a therapist. You're talking to a lay person here, but I'm just curious.

Um, yeah, kind of what you're doing today. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I mostly use cognitive behavioral therapy, which I'm sure you've heard of. Um, most people that have taken a psychology class or gone to therapy have heard of it because it's one of the most popular, um, theories used and it's been around. Um, about the longest and just has a lot of research backing it.

Um, and I really love to use it. Cause a lot of it is like getting to the heart of the issue and unpacking what's true and what might feel true, but not actually be true. And, and I also just find it really compatible for people that, um, yeah, are living a Christian faith or Catholic faith and want to make sure that the, whatever theory we're using is compatible with their faith.

And since so much of it is unpacking the truth, it's, it's really compatible. Very cool. And, uh, I know some people just think of, uh, cognitive behavioral therapy as just like talk therapy, but it sounds like there's more to it than just that. And. There is a difference, I think, between like our worldview and our experience of the world.

I've, I heard, um, Bessel van der Kirk, who wrote the book, The Body Keeps the Score, talk about this recently in a podcast episode. He was basically saying that, you know, it's a good thing to have a worldview, like what you believe is true about the world. Like, you know, being a Christian or if you're Jewish, whatever, like you have a worldview, even, you know, atheists have worldviews.

But he said more important to that is how you respond to the world. And so much of how you respond to the world comes down to really the brokenness, the trauma that you've experienced and the virtues that you've developed. And so, um, I thought that was really profound and interesting. And so I love how you're able to kind of help people align their worldview with their kind of response to the world.

Yeah. Wow. I love that. I might use that. Please do. I wish I could say I came up with it, but I didn't, but I, um, I wanted to go into your story as well. So I'm just curious, what's been your experience with, with trauma, with brokenness and healing? Yeah, no, also a great question. Um, and totally has a lot of layers, but basically, Long story short is, um, yeah, I had an eating disorder starting end of middle school into high school, a little bit into college, and didn't really know that therapy was an option for me, um, just didn't.

have the knowledge, like, that it was a resource, um, and know if it was a trusted resource. So I was very skeptical of it, um, for different reasons. Um, but, uh, praise God, a priest directed me to go to a counselor that happened to be free at school at Ave Maria's where I did my undergrad. And yeah, it was super life changing and, and actually my first therapist wasn't the most impactful, but it was finally a space where I felt like I could be understood, which was new because I didn't really understand what was going on.

Why I couldn't stop when I wanted to stop some behaviors. Um, but it was actually my second therapist who really, really changed my life. Um, and was able to just speak into my story and help me understand myself and how I could make steps towards change and freedom and healing. Um, Yeah, I remember at the time thinking like this kind of little small voice like maybe I could do this someday, but probably not So yeah, Wow, beautiful.

Okay, so you had this Transformational experience that eventually led to you wanting to help other people have those same transformations, which is really really beautiful before we go deeper there I am curious about kind of that experience of waking up to the fact that you had this problem this Disorder I I'm curious, like, did you have language to put to that disorder out of the gate?

Did you realize, like, oh, I'm struggling with an eating disorder, this is what it's called, sort of thing. And the reason I ask that question is, I remember, you know, when my parents split when I was really young, and then later, or not really young, I was, you know, 11, around 11 years old, and then in the years that followed, especially in the high school, having experiences of, um, anxiety and even depression.

And I didn't have the language to put to those things, so I didn't actually know what I was experiencing. Um, I don't even know how I thought about it, but I just knew I just didn't feel right. That was kind of the way that I would talk about it. And so, um, eventually got the language and was able to recognize, Wow, okay, I'm dealing with kind of intense anxiety, or maybe a little bit of OCD here, and some depression, and all those different things.

So I'm just curious if you were able to kind of pinpoint the language, and if not, when that occurred. Yeah, totally. I have a lot of thoughts from what you said, but I'll start with I think that experience is what most people come to therapy with, like, I know something's wrong. And I know whatever I've tried is not working.

And I just need help from someone who might understand more. And I think that's probably mostly how I came to therapy. I did. I do remember like in middle school, we learned about eating disorders in my like guidance And I remember asking a friend, like, I wonder, like, do I have this? And she's like, no, no, no.

Like you would know if you had it. And then I was like, okay. But I think a lot of maybe, yeah. What was going on inside me emotionally. Like I didn't know how to vocalize how it was feeling. So I think a lot of what I learned was. I have emotions and they're neither good nor bad. They just are. And, um, it's okay to have them.

And I have emotional needs and I can like in your book, you talk about like, how do we choose healthy coping? And I really had to learn what that meant and that. I was just choosing really unhealthy coping. Yeah, no, it's easy to do and I can relate to with a lot of what you said. I love that you said that about kind of people entering into therapy often with that sense of like, something's not right, but I don't totally know how to talk about it.

And I think there is so much freedom in working with a therapist like yourself who can help you. You know, first kind of grow this awareness, recognize what you're dealing with in a sense, diagnose the problem. And then once you've done that, then you can, like you said, do all some coping strategies and then hopefully also work on healing maybe the root cause of it so that it either disappears the problem or becomes a much more manageable thing to, to go through.

So I love that you said all of that and man, there's so much we can talk about there. Any further thoughts before we move on? Um, yeah, I mean, there's so much more we can talk about, I think. I just like that you use the word manage, because I think often people come in like wanting to fix the problem or wanting to get rid of anxiety, but anxiety, like, everyone has it even, like, The perfect mother of God was anxious when she couldn't find her son and it's really more about how can I manage this better and learn more about myself so that I can do that.

Yeah, no, and I think those, um, those tactics are so important. And I do think, I do think there is hope that in some scenarios, I don't think every wound can be healed to like a hundred percent. But I've seen evidence that there are, there is the possibility of even going beyond the management. Um, but what often I think needs to happen, like you're saying is like, we need to at least get some sort of like, you know, handle on the situation, some sort of, like you said, coping mechanisms to like make it through.

Um, and then hopefully we can go from that just like surviving or, um, kind of getting by to then. You know, thriving. And so maybe, um, yeah, would you talk about that a little bit? I'm just curious kind of what you've seen in your life too. Can wounds be completely healed or is that kind of a pipe dream?

Maybe that is too wishful. Oh, I like this. Um, uh, this is a very interesting question. I think The way I usually conceptualize it based on my own journey and just people I work with is like, there's still a scab usually, but I mean, we also have in our body. There's ones that don't have scabs. So I think maybe some things like do really become a part of your past that you, yeah, there's no scab.

It just is something you worked through. But I think, The way I usually think about it, especially with mental health struggles is like, there usually is a scab because even like, um, like compulsive behaviors such as eating disorder. Like if you have struggled and learned how to use it as an unhealthy coping, it is still something that you might be tempted to do again.

And you just have to kind of be aware. I have that scab. It's been healed. But if I find myself needing to cope emotionally, I need to be vigilant of like, what is healthy coping? And if I slip up, what supports do I have? What do I need to do to get back on track? That's good. And that makes a lot of sense.

And I do think different wounds can be treated differently. And I do think You've probably seen this too. Some therapists or therapy models are more effective at treating certain things than others. And I like to use the analogy of the medical world or our physical bodies when we're trying to heal them.

So, you know, there are situations where if you were to break your wrists or your arm, that can be completely healed. Now there is, there's going to be the tissue that builds up. I don't know why I can't think of the name, the um, the fractured like bone or the tissue essentially that, you know, develops in response to the broken bone, which actually can make it right, stronger if I'm getting that right.

I'm not a doctor or a therapist, um, as you can tell. But yeah, I think, I think there's something to be said for that. But the way that I like to think about healing is in the Google definition of healing, which is like the process of becoming like healthy and whole. And I think that does look different in different situations.

So I do think in certain situations, Maybe a wound can be healed to the point where you don't even recognize it was there in the, at all, to begin with. Whereas others, like you said, there is maybe a continual, like, scar or scab. Um, whereas others, there might be a continual limp because it's something we just haven't figured out yet how to heal.

And that's where maybe I'm a little, um, idealistic in my thinking about healing. Because I think, There conceptually potentially is a way to heal all these things, but maybe we just haven't figured it out yet, or I don't know, you know, what you think about that, but I think there is the potential in the future, maybe that we, for example, come up with better models, and I've seen some of them to heal trauma and that work better than things we've done in the past and almost maybe eliminate or make it, like you said, way more manageable to deal with that trauma.

So I don't know if that's making sense, but, um, yeah. Yeah. Curious what you think about that. Yeah. I, it's actually funny. You bring up like the kind of idealism appealing. Cause I remember in my internship, which I did at Francis skin for students, um, I used to write in my treatment plans, like the goal is to like reduce the anxiety or reduce.

And my supervisor was like, That's what he was like. No, it's not. It's to manage, um, because, um, to reduce like it kind of creates this sometimes impossible standard. And I'm trying to think of like, it's hard to talk in general, generalities, because I'm trying to think of some specifics, but like, especially related to emotions, because a lot of mental health stuff is all related to like our thoughts, emotions and behaviors.

And it's like, we're just never gonna get rid of. Even negative emotions like they're always going to be part of the human experience. I totally agree with that. Yeah. And that makes sense about, you know, especially very common experiences. I think, um, kind of what I've seen and I love that we're kind of, you know, Going around this topic, um, and kind of poking at it because it's an important one and I like that you said kind of the Idolism of you know healing because I think it we can fall into that But I think there is it is really interesting to see kind of some things seem to be able to be healed more than others And others maybe not as much and I think of like, you know stage four cancer It's obviously Maybe it's so far progressed that it would be really, really difficult.

Maybe in the future, we'll come up with a way to heal that, perhaps. I don't know. Um, but right now that would be maybe not possible to heal. Whereas, you know, breaking your, like I said before, you know, breaking your ankle or something. Um, we could get to a point where that's healed to almost as if it didn't occur to begin with.

But at the same time, I like what you're saying. When you have these experiences, these emotions that are just like a normal part of human life, we can't like chop those out, nor would we want to. And so I think that's, um, that's an important point that you made. And I'm glad that you made it as well. I, um, I also just wanted to touch on a little bit about, um, just the importance going back to what we were talking before of.

Being able to put your emotions and experiences into words, um, that seems to be so much of the point of therapy, like we were saying before, and I remember reading Dr. Susan David's book, Emotional Agility, um, really benefited from that book, and one of the things that she talks about is just how important it is to put your emotions into words, and she even talks about alexithymia, Which for anyone listening who doesn't know, it's like the inability to distinguish between and put into words your own emotions.

And that inability greatly handicaps you. It greatly holds you back from being able to manage or, you know, cope with things and even maybe to move beyond them to close that chapter in your life. And so. I think there's a lot of beauty to that. And so I do want to transition into kind of talking about therapy.

Like, how do you make therapy, um, effective? How do you make it productive? How do you make it fruitful? Um, or whatever word you would use to, you know, talk about it. So I'm curious there. Um, let's start with the negatives. Like, how do you guarantee that therapy like won't work? Yeah. I think the only time it won't work is if you don't show up, if you schedule an appointment and don't go.

And sometimes it might take scheduling a few times before you get the courage to go, because, I mean, you and me both have been in therapy, and it can be, like, not something you want to do. And I think... Showing up sometimes is all you can do and sometimes maybe you show up for a while and that's all you can do.

And then maybe eventually, hopefully you can start to open up and get comfortable and realize this like is worth investing in. This is worth being vulnerable for, um, and. It's worth trying to understand myself better so that I can move more towards healing. That's really good. Yeah. And so that's a great way to guarantee that therapy won't work if you don't show up.

Um, and I guess, I don't know if we want to go through these and do just the flip side of it, but I guess we're going through like what would contribute to making it helpful and healing. So we could, I guess, do both at the same time. So showing up, that's the first one. Um, what else would you say is an ingredient or factor in making therapy successful?

Successful? Yeah, um, I think, like, being honest and humble, like, just having the space where you can even just be honest, like, I don't know what's going on, or I don't know if this makes sense, but this is my best guess, like, something we'll say as therapists is like, Just give me your best guess. Like, try your best to describe this and maybe I can fill in some gaps based off of other people with similar experiences in my education.

Yeah, but I think Oh, another point on that is one of my favorite professors from grad school. Um, he said, and, um, he's not Catholic or anything. Um, but like awesome professor, he said, like, there's such humility that comes with therapy. Like it's a great act of humility, which is a virtue. It's the crown of all virtues.

So I think knowing that just the act of therapy, um, It's helping you grow in virtue and honesty, humility, and many others. Courage can help encourage you on the way. Um, yeah, I like that. Okay. So we have, so far we have just showing up. We have being honest. So telling the truth, um, we have being humble. So not being like egotistical or prideful, and then we have being courageous is another one that I wrote down.

Um, so to flip them on their head, if you don't show up, if you lie and you're not honest, if you are super prideful and arrogant and don't want to admit, you know. To a weakness or a wound and if you kind of shy back from going into the hard things, meaning you're not being courageous, you're being cowardly.

It won't work. So, um, but, but if you do those things, it will work. Another one I was thinking of, which you alluded to, um, and even said, I think is just the vulnerability component. And that goes along with every, the other ones that you said, but just like this willingness to kind of be open and to spill out your heart, just being like, yeah, Hey, this is where I'm at.

And I found such freedom there in my life, especially when it comes to therapy, but also with just mentors of mine who are able to, you know, kind of walk with me through really difficult things. I think we all fear being completely vulnerable with someone, um, because we think that if they saw how broken we were, they wouldn't love us.

They wouldn't want us. They wouldn't, you know, give us any sort of time and attention or love. And what I've found is if you Pick the right people to be vulnerable with. It actually makes them love and respect you more because it takes an incredible amount of courage, like you said, to be able to open up that much.

So, yeah, I'm curious what you've seen in your own life going to therapy, but also being a therapist when it comes to vulnerability. How important is that? Yeah, I love the topic of vulnerability and learned a lot from Brene Brown's book, Daring Greatly, um, on vulnerability. Um, I don't agree with everything she says, but I think she does a good job of like explaining it and explaining like how to do it well.

And I think like. What you described as like it being scary or fearful to share with someone. Um, I think a lot of that comes from like real experiences when you try and maybe what you're sharing is too uncomfortable for someone they don't understand or they haven't. Had experiences with that themselves, so they just really don't have the words or maybe there's judgment or things that might make you feel, feel really fearful to do that again, because it might have been painful therapy.

Hopefully, I mean, not every therapist is perfect. It's also. Humans doing it, but hopefully it can be that space where you can know that this professional is someone I can trust and someone who's not going to judge me and someone who is going to validate my experience and help me understand it further.

Um, and hopefully they're, I mean, they're usually an empathetic person. Otherwise they shouldn't have made it to grad school. So good. No, um. So much to say there, but I do want to touch on something where I think everyone kind of leaned in when you said it is that, um, therapists are human too, and not all therapists are created equal.

You said that before as well, and, you know, the first therapist you had was helpful, but it wasn't as impactful. And so I'm curious about that. Like, what do you do if you're in the, in the seat of being the one going to therapy, and maybe you're with a therapist who doesn't seem to be. Kind of working out for you, or you're not really, maybe they're not treating in the way that you would hope.

What would you advise for someone in that situation to do? Yeah, great question. Um, And I'll start with, I think, coming to therapy with an open mind is, is really important. Cause I, I've seen... Some people, and I kind of was this myself, like coming with an agenda or like being skeptical of therapy. And so quickly judging like, Oh, the service isn't for me or counseling can't work because I can't find the right therapist.

And I just encourage you to. Persevere and have an open mind and try a therapist and be willing to admit, like, if you feel like, do I feel comfortable sharing anything with this person and it might take a little bit of time to build trust because even though they are professional, yeah, they still are a human and it takes time to build trust, just like in any relationship, but usually a little quicker in this professional relationship.

So I think. Thank you. Being open minded and tuning into like your experience and if it's, if you're feeling like, okay, this isn't helpful anymore, um, that's a good time to be like, um, is it because I may be feeling more confident and don't need therapy right now or is it because I want to try another therapist, um, which is so real because sometimes it's even just the personality you don't jive well with and that might prohibit you from getting the therapy you need.

Yeah, I love that. There's so much freedom there. And I think that's good. And so in that situation, what's something maybe someone could say to that therapist that they're working with, um, instead of maybe just like ghosting them and never showing up again? Um, I'm curious, cause I think there's probably a right way to do that and a wrong way to do to kind of break the relationship or say like, Hey, this isn't really working for me.

So what would work well in that situation? If someone may be listening right now is finding themselves in a situation where they want to try a different therapist. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if there's necessarily a right or wrong way. Like often people do just ghost. I mean, not often, but sometimes. And, and like, we understand as therapists, but I think what might be courteous, um, cause it's still a relationship and like, as a therapist, like I care about all my clients.

Um, so like, if someone says like, Hey, like I'm, Okay. I don't need to schedule another appointment or like I'm going to cancel it. I'm not interested in continuing therapy at this time. Like that's, that's enough. And if you want to share more, feel free. And I think, yeah, I mean, if anyone ever says like kind things to me that it does, it means a lot, you know, cause I care about that person.

So yeah, I know that your words. Um, can mean a lot to a therapist. Um, but also if you feel like this wasn't a good experience and I just want it to be done, um, like just being direct and short and clear is enough. I'd say, okay, that's good advice. Yeah. I like that. And I've had therapists in the past where just, yeah, there was something off, like we weren't clicking.

Um, so had to move on, uh, at the same time. There was a therapist. I remember when I was at Franciscan, I was working with him there. And yeah, it took me maybe like nine months to like a year. I did a year and a half of therapy when I was at Franciscan. Um, and in college for anyone doesn't know Franciscan University, but basically I, um, yeah, it took me probably like a year or so to really get to like the deep stuff, which probably prideful.

But, uh, But it took me that long. So I think sometimes, like you were saying before, it could just mean you haven't progressed to that point yet, or you're not maybe willing to take that risk and kind of open up and be, be more vulnerable than maybe you have been in the past, um, because you're scared. And I totally get being scared.

I mean, I know you get that too. Yeah. And I think part of it totally could be that, but it could also just be like therapy can kind of be this. Almost new language of like talking about my feelings and maybe I've never done that before Maybe I haven't even tuned into what I am feeling like sometimes we go through life.

Just thinking okay I get angry sad and happy and I don't even have words for other emotions and there's so many so like a lot of A lot of where people start that I've seen is like just tuning into emotions and thoughts and getting comfortable with that habit so that I can then know how to meet my needs and know what I need to do and, um, know if I'm engaging in unhelpful or true thoughts and become more aware of that.

And also like. This is kind of back to a point you had earlier, um, but when we're able to develop that language to describe ourself to, it then gives us the language to tell those people we know and love and trust and, and to the more you know someone, the more you can love them. So it really gives people the opportunity to love you better when you're able to articulate what's going on better.

No, I love that. That's such an excellent point. Going back to the, um, yeah, this whole idea of like, how do you make therapy successful or sabotage it on the flip side is, um, the homework, like often therapy sessions will end with something you need to do or think about, right? And so I think it's obviously very important to, to do that homework, but I'm curious if you'd talk a little bit more about that and if there's any other things you think that make therapy fruitful, successful or not.

Yeah, I like just the two terms of like implement and invest. So I think checking like your level of investment, like am I making time not just for my hour long or 50 minute therapy session? Like, am I also making time to process and learn healthy coping and have space if I need it to deal with what I'm dealing with?

Um, and then, and am I making that a priority? So am I invested one? And then two, am I implementing it? Cause like, you're not going to get much out of it if you're just like listening in the therapy session, but not implementing what you're talking about. Like you might be in a therapy a long time before it gets effective.

So I think, um, and implementing doesn't have to take a lot of time. It's just for, yeah. Like that tuning into my emotions and thoughts and. Those needs and, um, other there's a whole I could go off on on all of that. Um, I think that and then, yeah, something else I just wanted to mention was, um, support. So whether that's from friends, like, I think the more you can.

Like, it's so great that you're opening up to someone, like your therapist, but it's even better if you could start also opening up more to friends and, and maybe support groups, like, depending on what you're struggling with, those might be good. Um, yeah, because for different struggles, sometimes your friends don't really understand and you might need a support group of other people who do understand what you're going through to really not feel alone.

And it's Crazy how, if people have support, how much more efficient therapy is, like how much more quickly the healing process goes. Talk about that a little bit more. That's fascinating. I love everything that you said. I totally agree with that. But yeah, um, about it being quicker and I don't know if easier would be a word we'd throw in there.

Maybe not. But, um, quicker. Yeah. I'm really curious about that. Yeah, and. This is kind of my own theory, so take it with a grain of salt, but, um, This isn't a PhD dissertation. No, no, no. Um, but I think, like, the goal of therapy is to teach you skills for your own life, so you don't need a therapist. And, not that you won't never need it again, but, like, it's a tool.

Like, the point isn't that you're in therapy the rest of your life, but, like, I really see it as, Something you need, and then you learn and then you don't need. Um, and I think a huge part of that is being able to communicate your emotional needs with friends and family and other supports. And once you're able to do that, like.

Your need for a therapist, depending on what you're struggling with, could decrease and, and then, like, if you're having a bad day, like, you have that healthy coping of, like, I can call this friend and they can speak truth into maybe my thought spiral or my overthinking and it, it really gives, yeah, just that opportunity for love and truth to be spoken and for you to know you're not alone, like, even that, knowing you're not alone can alleviate so much Weight of mental health struggles.

Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, there's so many bad things that happen when we're isolated as humans. I mean, it's people, a lot of people have talked about this, but it's so interesting that one of the worst punishments that you can enter if you're in prison is solitary confinement because there's.

Basically, a misery may be no greater than that. And I know all the introverts are like, maybe that wouldn't be so bad. It's like, no, that would be miserable, even if you're an introvert. Um, but wow, so many good things, Claire. Um, just to kind of summarize the last few points that we talked about is like, be open minded going into therapy of maybe trying different things.

Um, if you want to guarantee it won't work, be close minded, be, you know, hardheaded. Um, also. Yeah, implement, uh, like you said, and invest, and the way I threw it out there was like do, do the homework, do the work that comes with the therapy, not just the therapy itself, um, and if you don't do that, if you just go and talk and never put it into action, you can be guaranteed that it won't work.

And then you said, uh, also just, That that support as is huge. So if you don't have a support system, if you don't have friends, if you don't have maybe family members who can walk with your mentors as well, then you can guarantee that it won't work. But if you do, it's going to, like you said, the healing is going to happen faster.

Uh, which is really beautiful and really encouraging as well. The other one I would just add here, picking up on something you said is kind of building in some, you talked about prioritizing and I think in order to prioritize, you need to build some cushion into your life, which I'm the worst at. So I'm talking to myself and you guys all get to listen.

But, um, but it can be so easy to, especially if you're kind of like this type A, like overachiever type to just like, kind of pack your day and your life with like, I'm going from this thing to this thing to this thing and doing this task and working on this project. And it's like, cool, you know, you're going to wake up at the end of life and you're going to be like, man, I kind of.

Destroyed myself. That's not the purpose of life is just to be productive. And so I think if we want to become, um, more human, become more virtuous, become, um, more loving and live like richer, happier lives, it's really important not to have, um, ours. schedules, like constantly booked, like we need some of that cushion or margin, um, to give us the ability to, you know, do the homework from therapy or just to enjoy like beautiful experiences and do those things that really give us life.

And I think we, especially as Americans, maybe everyone else listening, who's not in the States, like is better at this. I know Europeans listening, like you guys are way better at this than we are. Um, but, uh, but yeah, I've, I've noticed that that's necessary as well. Awesome. Yeah. And I just have a few thoughts about what you said.

One is, I, this is just like a little thing and also from my supervisor at Franciscan, but he didn't like to use the word homework. Um, and I've kind of adopted that from him instead. I'll use challenge and I like it. Yeah. I like it because Like, I always tell people, I'm not grading you. If you don't want to do something, you don't find that you do it, let's try something else because we really want it to be something you can implement and use in your life, like not just now, but like long term.

So like, like something I often use is a common cognitive behavioral therapy tool called thought records. Super simple, but super helpful. I can Talk all about that. But, um, sometimes people don't do it and don't like it. And I'm like, great, like, just be honest and we'll try something else. Cause there are other strategies, but I like the word challenge because really what we're trying to do is just grow into more, into more wholeness, into more of who God made you to be into more of freedom and peace.

Um, so challenges is what helps us grow. Beautiful. No, I like that. And that's a way better way to say it, especially with, when you have the grading aspect, that's not, not super helpful. So I, I totally agree. Thanks for clarifying that. I really appreciate it. Um, the thought record thing, would you explain that a little bit?

Oh yeah, sure. Oh man, I could talk a whole podcast about this. Um, so it's basically a short structured journal entry. Um, And like the one I, if you googled it, you'd find a bunch of different templates because it really is a very common tool in cognitive behavioral therapy. Um, but the one I like is just simple, like from therapistaid.

com or org or whatever. And it just has... Um, you write down the situation, thought, emotion, behavior, and then an alternative thought. And I tell people like a good time to do a thought record is if you notice like I'm overthinking or I'm caught in a thought spiral or, or I feel a big emotion, like I feel super anxious.

Maybe like I even feel it in my body. Like my, my chest is tight. My stomach's churning. Um, Like those are kind of red flags of like, this is a good time to do a thought record and kind of, and there's so many benefits. Like I really could talk a lot about it, but just to be brief, like one is it can stop like the thought spiral and be that space to just reflect before you go down that rabbit hole, which can.

Which in cognitive behavioral therapy, like through evidence based research, they've concluded that our thoughts and emotions are congruent. So that means that, um, if I can stop unhelpful or untrue thoughts, that impacts my emotion and my mood. So I can change my mood by becoming more aware of my thoughts and not engaging as much in unhelpful or untrue thoughts.

And a thought record is a tool to do that. Um, and, and then. Just one final note on that is, um, doing it also can be really good content to bring to therapy because sometimes for some people it's harder to like remember what thoughts or remember or even articulate like I had a really hard day and I don't even know I don't have the language but actually I wrote it down and sometimes for internal processors it's actually really helpful and I've seen it like help not only you know Moment thoughts like we call them automatic thoughts.

So those are like the first layer of thoughts and cognitive behavioral therapy and then there's beneath. Those are like irrational beliefs, which are is exactly what it sounds like. It's irrational. Not true, but I really believe it sounds so good. Like, and that's usually. Like under that is core belief.

So it's basically irrational beliefs. I've had my whole life, usually from wounds and because we, and we all have them because we live in an imperfect world. Um, so thought records can help you change automatic thoughts that you, so that you can then change emotions. And behaviors related to it, but it can also help you detect irrational beliefs.

So that you can bring that to your therapy session and further unpack what's under this, like what layers of wounds do I have that make me believe this thing that I know isn't true? So good. No, I really like that. Both, um, the thought record and. You know what you just mentioned to the different layers of thoughts and beliefs.

That's super helpful. Super good. And it's crazy how if you, there's a lot of people that talk about beliefs that I think it kind of becomes this thing that people tone out to a bit. Um, but I think it is, it's so, so important because if you bust just like one of those untrue beliefs, it can totally change the way that you approach life.

Um, to the point where I've seen people, I remember talking with a friend who, It's a physical therapist and he, you know, broke into running his own business, like, which is not an easy thing to do being an entrepreneur. And, um, there were certain beliefs that he had, which sounds kind of against that kind of superficial hokey, but it's not when you see it in action that once he kind of addressed those and be like, man, I, you know, always thought this way about like me and running a business.

And once he was able to break through that, his business started like growing and he started. To be able to succeed in the whole entrepreneurial thing, which is really, really beautiful. So there are concrete examples. It's not just some of this, you know, again, like vague thing that you just swirl your head around all the time.

And I'm not saying you're saying that, but I think a lot of times when people hear us talking about this, they think that that's it. No, it's like, it can be very concrete in your own life if you bust those, you know, kind of untrue beliefs. Absolutely. And we could talk a lot more about that too. Um, yeah, I just, I love cognitive behavioral therapy and it's, it's what helped me and what I really just find to be so impactful with my clients.

I like that. Yeah. And I think sometimes it gets a bad rap. Um, people maybe reduce it to just like thought. Uh, talk therapy, um, but I think it, yeah, from what you're sharing now, there's so much more to it as well. And I have benefited from it too. I've benefited from other therapy models as well, but um, I have benefited from, uh, CBT.

So thank you, um, for, for going through all of that. Any final items that you wanted to touch on when it comes to how to make, uh, therapy fruitful? Uh, back to when you were summarizing it, um, you had summarized like support helps. Um, yeah, just expedite the process. Um, and I just wanted to add that, like, if you don't have support, that's okay.

Like, you can work with your therapist on how can I get creative and build my support. And sometimes that's a great place to start. Um, and you've already come to therapy, so you have that support. And, and building it can make a huge. different. So that's a lot of what we do often in therapy, too, is if people don't have good supports or if they're not opening up to their good supports and don't feel comfortable sharing, it's like, how can we work to get there?

Really good. And I think a lot of people. might be afraid to that they would maybe develop some unhealthy dependency on people in their lives. But that's the beauty of what you just said. It's like, you can actually learn how to have like an appropriate, like interdependent relationship. That's not over relying on that person on the other end.

And it can be really life giving on both ends, which is really beautiful. And I've seen that and I've lived that and it's, it's, it can be so good. So I love that you said that. And the only other thing that came to related to the first point of just showing up is starting. I think maybe of showing up as like the ongoing effort, whereas I think starting is like turning the key to, you know, get the engine going.

And that I think is probably the hardest part, in my opinion, Claire, like there's so many barriers that we have in our minds when it comes to therapy, where there's so many things that we maybe even just like barriers that we create ourselves because for one reason or another, we don't want to go there.

Um, but man, if you could just get started, if you can just like. Experiment. Um, I think that is really, really helpful and that's one of the ways I trick myself into doing things often is, uh, and I'm curious if you have any tips for this too, but I'll, I'll just trick myself into thinking like, oh, you know what, um, I'm just gonna kind of put on this like experimenters hat or.

lab coat and just be like, you know, I'm just gonna try it. I'm going to do one time and see how that goes. And then I'll go from there. Um, and, and I've noticed that that will get me moving way more than if I think of the totality of it because it feels too heavy and too big. Um, but I can, you know, hone in on the one little piece that just very next step and not really think about the overall effort.

At least that's been helpful for me. So curious about, uh, for you, like what. tips or hacks you have about just getting started. Yeah. I mean, I love what you just said. And actually that's the language my supervisor now uses. He's like, let's try an experiment. And I think too, like we talk a lot about overwhelm, like I feel overwhelmed and like, what do I do with that?

Cause it feels like I don't know what to do with that. And the, the really. I think the way to combat it is one step at a time, because if it's super overwhelming, if I start taking steps, just start, start experimenting pretty soon, it's going to be less overwhelming, but it's that like, okay, it feels overwhelming.

Maybe there's anxiety. So I avoid it. That's going to make it grow because you're not doing the things you need to do to make it decrease. Um, and I also think on your point that it's just, it's such a good. Outlook to like be, um, willing to not be great at things like to just experiment and try new things.

Like how much more full can your life be if you're willing to get out of your comfort zone? Boom. So good. And I, um, I don't know if this is true, but I call that like willingness to suck, like just being really willing to be like, Hey, you know, I'm going to look. Ridiculous. And this kind of maybe fits under the point of humility, but I'm going to look ridiculous.

I'm going to sound ridiculous. People might even make fun of me or judge me, but I'm just willing to be bad at this to start. And if you're willing to go through that discomfort, what I've realized in life, whether it's in like, Business or fitness or anything, managing your money, um, you're going to get further than the people who are criticizing you.

Not that it's a competition. I'm not like saying you want to beat everyone down or anything like that, but those opinions are often the things that I think hold us back. And so I think if you grow that muscle of just, Hey, I'm not going to be good at this right away. I'm not going to be a pro. How, how would I be a pro at this?

I'm starting out fresh. Like who can expect that? And I think if you take that, um, mindset, I guess, into, into it, I think you can get way, way further faster than if you kind of think about it forever and never actually. Take the first step. Absolutely. And I love what you're saying. Cause I have that same similar mindset and have to remind myself to have that mindset.

Like I have a Rocky Balboa quote of like, you ain't gonna have a life until you start believing in yourself. Um, and then another good quote, um, actually from Bernays Brown. Brené Brown's book, Daring Greatly, is Theodore Roosevelt's quote, and it's kind of longer, but it's about the man in the arena, and it's like, the one in it, like, getting bloody, like, doing it, like, there's so much more respect for him, even if he fails, than someone who doesn't try.

Love that. I absolutely love that quote and yeah, so good. So maybe we'll attach this to this episode somehow. We'll have to, might even have to figure that out. But Claire, I know we're almost out of time here. Any final thoughts or anything you'd add about making therapy fruitful? Yeah, maybe I'll just end with some Bible verses that kind of I bring up a lot in therapy.

Um, so even if you're not, um, religious, like just, I would just encourage you to have an open mind. But, um, yeah, kind of the top three ones that I bring up a lot are 1 John 11, which is God is light and in him there is no darkness at all. And I think I love this because it's just like, there's so much.

Beauty that comes when you bring things to the light, and that's where the healing begins. Like you can't, a doctor can't heal anything, heal something that he can't see or that you're not showing him, you're not presenting him. So I think similar with like mental health, like just bringing it to the light, like, Ooh, that's a huge first step.

Um, and then the next one is Romans 8, 28 in. In all things, God works for the good of those who love him, which I think just, oh, I love this because Like, it just validates that no matter what you've done, um, he can make it good. And like, like my story, like, he's transfigured it for beauty, and your story, like, look at what you're doing with your story, and, and anyone listening, like, he wants to bring whatever you've done.

And always like, if you come back to him, if you come back to truth, um, it can be used for good. And like the, the saying healed people, heal people. Um, so there's just so much hope in that, I think. And then the last one is 2 just my powers made perfect in weakness and that's God's power. So just it's in our brokenness that he can work the most.

So like our brokenness.

Um, but yeah, those are, uh, kind of my top three Bible verses I'd say. Beautiful. Well, thanks for sharing all that and yeah, definitely moving. And I love that quote, you know, heal people, heal people. That's super, super good. Um, man, Claire, thank you so much for coming on the show. Um, if people want to do therapy with you, I know you're in Colorado, um, how do they find you online?

How do they start that process? Yes, so you can call our main office at St. Raphael's and request me. That'd be great. I have openings. Love, would love to work with you. Um, find it such a joy. Um, and then we also have, um, our website, um, Which I'm not going to remember, but maybe we can put in the show notes.

I think it's like straphaelcounseling. com. Um, and you can look up all our therapists. We have really a really solid team of therapists. So if I'm not like the right personality for you, I, I'm pretty sure there could be someone on our team that is beautiful. I love that. And then I'd love for you just in closing to speak to.

All of our listeners who come from broken families, what maybe final piece of encouragement or advice would you give to them, especially if they just feel stuck and so broken because of all the trauma and the brokenness in their families? Yeah. Wow. I mean, I really love your book. And I think like them just having the resources you've provided can really validate a lot of probably the experiences they have.

Um, I know I actually have a few. Clients reading your book and they've expressed that and I think just yeah, like the title of your book It's not your fault and and starting there like I think you really got to the heart of the issue because it allows them allow someone to Yeah, really delve into like, okay, this did affect me and this really maybe deeply affected me because Yeah, for so many reasons that we could go into but um, yeah, I think just knowing there's hope there's healing And and taking advantage of the resources out there that like you have provided and therapy And knowing that that there's there's just so much hope.

Yeah

Again, if you're in Colorado, you can find Claire and the other therapists at her practice by going to strafeelcounseling. com or just clicking the link in the show notes. On that page, actually, if you click appointments, you can actually get a free, I think it's a 50 minute consult for free, which is awesome.

And so my apologies if in the future that changes after this recording, but for now you can get a free consult if you go to that page. And to recap this episode, I just want to go through those 10 tips again. Uh, the first is to just show up, right? Just show up to put in the work. If you don't show up, you don't put in the work, you're guaranteed to fail.

The next thing is to be honest and vulnerable. If you're closed off, if you're not honest, if you lie, if you deceive, you're not going to get much out of therapy. It's not going to work for you. Number three is be humble. Be humble. If you're arrogant and prideful and egotistical, therapy is not going to work for you.

You need to go and be honest that, you know, life isn't the way you want it to be. You feel broken and you need help. Number four is be courageous. Like therapy is hard. It takes courage, but I love this quote. It, you know, courage is not the absence of fear. It's acting in spite of your fear. And so be courageous.

It's not a place to be cowardly. Uh, if you want to, you know, Shrink back from challenges. Therapy is not for you, but if you're ready to step up, uh, and to go at it and know that you'll have the support of the therapist, you're not, you don't have to like, you know, grow all this bravery on your own, but if you go at it, be courageous, put in the hard work, you're going to see benefits from it.

So that's number four. Five is to be open minded. You might be challenged in ways that you never thought you might be challenged to, you know, address parts of your past or your woundedness in a way that you never thought you might. Need to or be able to but be open minded and you'd be surprised at how much you're capable of.

That's number five. Six is implement and invest in the challenges. So remember we said we're not gonna call it homework, but we're gonna call it challenges. Those challenges are really the key to making therapy effective. Number seven is build cushion into your life. Like we need some cushion in our lives, which I'm horrible at but I'm gonna work on to be able to to grow, to grow personally, to build virtue, to heal.

Our woundedness, our brokenness, um, be able to move on in life because if our schedules are packed and our to do lists are super long and we're always focused on that, we're not going to do that hard work that often takes a lot of energy, a lot of emotional focus in order to heal. And so number eight is, uh, build support around you.

Build support around it. You can't do it alone. Like if you want to guarantee failure, you know, do it alone. Um, number nine is start as an experiment, start as an experiment. It can be so intimidating to do everything at once. And so don't do that. Just start as an experiment, do a little bit at once, you know, go to one session.

Do the free consult. See how it goes. Maybe it doesn't work for you. I don't know. Um, but then, you know, every time just think of it as a little bit of an experiment, a little bit of a bet and go from there. Number 10 is be willing to suck or be bad at it. That's so important with anything in life. You're not going to attain any sort of a skill unless you're willing to not be great at the skill when you start, like who is exceptional.

Very few people are really great and I'm any skill when they just start. And so again, show up is number one, two is be honest and vulnerable. Three is be humble. Four, be courageous, five, be open minded, six, uh, implement and invest in the challenges, seven, build cushion into your life, eight, um, build support around you, don't do it alone, uh, nine, start as an experiment, and ten, be willing to suck or be bad.

At it also, I absolutely love the quote that Claire mentioned from Teddy Roosevelt, uh, the man in the arena, and I wanted to share that in a second. But first, if you're not in Colorado and you still want a counselor, a spiritual director, a coach, a mentor, uh, we can help. We know how difficult and time consuming that can be, but thankfully here at Restored, we're building a resource for you.

We're building a network of counselors.

It's just going to save you time and you're going to have confidence that, you know, you're finding someone who's competent, who's professional. And so how do you get on the wait list? Just go to restored ministry. com slash coaching and restored ministry. com slash coaching, or just click on the link in the show notes, fill out the form on that page.

And then once we find someone for you, then we'll connect you with them again, go to restored ministry. com slash coaching, or just click on the link in the show notes. And here's the quote from Teddy Roosevelt, titled The Man in the Arena. It goes like this. It is not the critic who counts. Not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or the doer of deeds could have done them better.

The credit belongs to the man who counts. Who is actually in the arena. Whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood. Who strives valiantly. Who errs. Who comes short again and again. Because there is no effort without error and shortcoming. But who does actually Strive to do the deeds who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at best knows in the end, the triumph of high achievement and who at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring.

Greatly so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat So good with that that wraps up this episode if you know someone who's struggling Because of their parents divorce or their broken family share this episode with them seriously feel free to take like 30 seconds now To message them if you want and in closing always remember you are not alone We're here to help you feel whole again and break that cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life, and keep in mind the words of C.

S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#107: Forgiving Someone Who’s Hurt You | John O’Brien

When trauma occurs, it causes you to ask big questions. That’s where my guest found himself after being brutally attacked, almost to the point of death, by people he was trying to help. 

In this episode, you’ll hear the story of the attack, plus he answers:

• Has forgiveness been difficult for you?

• Why forgive? What are the benefits? What happens if we don’t forgive?

• How do you forgive someone who has hurt you?

Take the podcast survey

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• John O’Brein

  • Aquinas Forum

  • john@aquinasforum.org

• #058: Forgiveness: The Secret to Healing and Freedom | Fr. John Burns

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When trauma happens, whether it's someone dying or your family falling apart or any other type, it causes you to ask big questions. And that's where my guest found himself after being brutally attacked almost to the point of death by people that he was trying to help. In this episode, you'll hear him share that story of the attack.

Plus he answers questions like, how has the attack affected you over the years? Has forgiveness been difficult for you? Why forgive? What are the benefits? What happens if we don't forgive? And how do you forgive someone who has hurt you? Intense story, but good content. Keep listening.

Welcome to the Restored Podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parent's divorce, separation, or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host, Joey Pontarelli. This is episode 107. We're thrilled that so many of you have found the podcast so helpful and even healing.

We've heard lots of feedback. One listener said, amazing five stars been looking for a podcast like this, finally found one that has helped me more. Then you'll ever know. Thank you. Another said, Surprisingly helpful, not what I expected. Five stars. They went on to say, I've always said that I'm okay. That what happened couldn't have changed who I was.

Of course it changed me. I still run away from many topics related to divorce, but listening to this podcast isn't like hearing from a bunch of psychologists tell me all the ways I'm really okay. It's much more helpful to hear that this is not okay, and it will never be okay. Lots more reviews like that that we don't have time to share right now, but we will in the future.

Again, we're so happy to hear that it's been so helpful. We do it for you. If you've ever had an idea, guest, topic, or any other advice to make this podcast better, we'd love to hear from you. To offer your advice, you can just take our podcast survey. On it, we ask questions like, how would you rate the podcast?

Of the options listed, why do you listen? Is the podcast length too long, too short, or just right? Should we add video? Should we change the format of the show? And other questions that'll guide you in giving your advice, which we really value. It does take five to ten minutes to complete it. But if you've benefited from this podcast, think of it as a way to help us in return.

It'll also come back to benefit you in two ways. One, it'll make the show even better for you. And two, if you fill it out by November 15th, you'll be entered to win a hundred dollar Amazon gift card. And so to offer your advice, it's really easy. Just go to restoredministry. com. Again, restored ministry, ministry is singular dot com slash survey.

Okay. Just answer the questions there, submit the form again, go to restored ministry.

My guest today is John O'Brien. John is the founder and executive director of the Aquinas Forum, a nonprofit organization based in Denver, Colorado, for faith formation and Catholic studies. He holds a bachelor's degree and master's degree in theology from Franciscan University of Steubenville and has taught faith formation to every age level.

Beginning as a high school theology and humanities teacher, he later became the director of faith formation for a flourishing parish in Denver, Colorado. During his tenure as a parish director of formation, part of his role included directing over 240 young adults in 25 small groups. He also started a monthly candlelight mass that continues nine years later and was a starting point for over 50 marriages, if you can believe that.

Uh, to help people grow in faith and develop a Catholic vision of life is the hallmark of all of his work. So obviously in this episode we talk about God, we talk about faith. If you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening for a while knows that this podcast is not a strictly religious show.

And so wherever you're at, I'm glad you're here. If you don't believe in God, my challenge for you is this. Just listen with an open mind. Even if you skip or take out the God part, you're still going to benefit from this episode. With that, here's my conversation with John.

John, welcome to the show. So good to have you, man. Great to be here, Joey. I've been looking forward to this and let's dive right in. So, years ago you went through a very traumatic event. Yep. And I, I don't want to tell the story. I want you to tell the story. What happened there? Well, there's a lot to be said, but I just completed graduate school and got the master's in theology and wanted to begin a career in teaching at some point, but For the, for the present time.

I wanted to, uh, experience this opportunity that was presented to me. A few of my college friends were going out to a ranch in northwest Wyoming. It sounded really cool. I'd been, you know, just in the classroom forever. I was age 24. Lots of paper, lots of pens, computers, like, oh man, you spent some time in the west.

That sounds good. Mm-hmm. , the thing is, it was delinquent youth ranch and so that, that was a bit of a twist, but that sounded cool too 'cause I just wanted to go and help be a counselor. You know, just be with the kids, take care of them. Yeah, that's heroic. That's well, you know, it felt right, felt right for the time and kind of grow up experiencing maturity.

And when I got out there, though, I'm going to have to kind of keep this simple, I think, for the sake of our timing for the podcast, but you'll get the important elements. I'd only been there for two weeks. Again, it was a delinquent youth ranch. So the kids that were there were used to kind of relatively small crime.

Um, But, but some bigger, some, uh, some violence, some just kind of overdrinking, problematic child, terrible relationship with the parents. So the parents at some point, because the children are out of control, they'd have to, uh, force them to pack up and go to the ranch. Wow. Okay. So the kids didn't want to be there and one night, just two weeks into the, to my time at the ranch, they caught wind.

I was going to be the only counselor there that night. There were nine boys, middle teens, and the manager approved it. I didn't know what was going on cause I'd only been there for two weeks, but the manager approved it. I was the only guy there. Treat everything as a normal day. Uh, say a rosary before the campfire about 10 PM, put them down to sleep in their tent, all under the Wyoming high desert.

Wow. Beautiful area. So I put him in the tent, I get him in my sleeping bag, bed roll, not in the tent, just like under the stars, see the Milky Way, it's gorgeous, I was in a great mood, like I was looking forward to being out there for a year. One week later I wake up in the hospital, the intensive care unit.

Billings, Montana, and what happened was they waited until I fell asleep about 10 PM and then about 1130 They said we're gonna go through with the with with what we had planned So they had three options. The first one was to tie me up with a rope and their object is very simple I had a duffel bag next to me.

The truck keys were in the bag. So but I was in I was in the way So they're like, well, let's think of a way to get to take care of. Mr. Obi is what they called me Rob Ryan. And they said, well, let's think of a way we can take care of Mr. Obi and then take the keys of the truck and go. Wow. First option was tying me up with a rope, but they said, well, he's, he's, he's bigger than us.

And so if, if we get into trouble, that's not going to be good. Yeah. You're, you're for everyone who doesn't know what John looks like. He's a tall, strong dude. So yeah. Can't think of a joke. So I have to just kind of a lame guy But and so that was the first option just tie me up. They said that that there could be problems The second option was they could stab me, but they said well, that's too violent Then the third option they said and I had argued this is just as violent but take garden shovels try to knock me out Wow, so that's what they did They snuck out of the truck, or excuse me, they snuck out of the tent about 1130.

They picked up garden shovels that were nearby, um, we were doing some work earlier in the afternoon. We used the shovels for it. They pick up the shovels, they count to three, they've surrounded me, I'm asleep. And they pound my head and for eight to 10 hits, because there were five other boys right there during the, this whole scene, we have witness testimony, like minute to minute, you know?

And so one of the boys said, I think I heard eight to 10 hits. He told the detective and it sounded like, uh, it sounded like aluminum, an aluminum bat hitting rocks. And so that was me. Did you wake up through that? I did wake up, but I don't have any memory of it, so I didn't lose any consciousness during this experience, but I was knocked into shock, so I don't remember it.

Yeah. Thank God. Yeah. Seriously. Wow. So anyways, I'm on the sleeping bag, uh, kind of left for dead. One of the boys, uh, goes back to the other boys that were in the tent and said, you know, get out of here. Let's go hop in the truck. And they're all scared for the life, of course. So they do it. One boy not involved in the assault puts on his cowboy boots.

And runs like hell to the staff house. He saved my life. Wow. If it wasn't for him, if he would have thought more about his own safety than me, I would be in the great beyond. Wow. As you call it, Joey. The great beyond. So he runs, he gets help, but before they take off, this, this episode really haunted me in the first few years.

I was struggling with things. Um, he comes back from the truck just to kind of make sure, I don't know, I'm, uh, not dangerous for their plot. And I'm kind of sitting up in my sleeping bag. Yeah, bloodied and just just a wreck because the the assault immediately caused a skull fracture hand fracture a Subdural hematoma or a blood clot started forming on the brain and so I was out of it Well, he kneels down because I'm sitting on my bedroll just kind of dazed The other boy said and he he bends down kind of looks at my face looks my eyes And then takes a step back and just kicks me.

Bad scene. It's interesting. I've never gotten emotional about that scene. I have a little bit of a PhD, Joey, in disassociation. Fair enough. So, so that happens. And of course I'm, I'm out. They hop in the truck, they take off. They're caught later that night, right? By the Wyoming highway patrol. I'll talk very, very soon here about kind of their, what happened to them, but.

So I'm in the sleeping bag, about a half an hour later, uh, staff comes and gets help, uh, uh, rather. A half an hour later, staff comes, loads me up in a truck because they said the ambulance was not going to know where it is. Probably true. They take me by ambulance to a huge road in front of the ranch. An ambulance comes.

Then I'm airlifted to Billings, Montana. They call my mom. I'm airlifted to Billings, Montana, where there was a neurosurgeon in charge and just trying to gauge how I'm going to do. He calls my mom and dad and, uh, you know, they say, of course, talk to whatever you need to do. When he operates, he takes a three by three inch piece of skull out.

He puts it in the freezer to where it was going to be left for five months just to keep it safe as my, as my brain, right? Wow. As my brain swells down and as my brain tries to heal. And so they put me under a medical coma. I wake up five days later. Definitely brain injury. If, if for anyone who's experienced brain injury, they know, well, there's all sorts of stuff that can happen.

But one of the things is. You're, you really kind of start over at a young age. So just, I don't know if you're going to want to call it. Lack of focus, just, just, you're super, super young and on medicine. And so it was a time as a ramp up. I recovered for one year. I went home after two weeks and not in the hospital.

Wow. Um, I go home, started speech therapy, started physical therapy, had to walk on, uh, you know, the treadmills and take care of everything. And I was brain injured. So there's a little bit like. You're drunk. And so I'd say all sorts of inappropriate things, acute nurses and such, hopefully made him at least laugh.

And so recovered for a year and that, that was the physical part. And then the psychological part was much longer, but that's the basics. Uh, the boys were, they went to jail for a couple of years and uh, you know, got out and I know some of, some of them have had trouble, uh, who, you know, participate in the assault.

Those four boys, some of them continue to have trouble with the law. Uh, I'm hoping. A couple others are doing better. That's so good of you to say that. I know that must have taken a while for you to just want the best for them or maybe not. Maybe you're more heroic and virtuous than I am, but my goodness, man, that is, uh, that is intense.

Yeah. So many questions. Uh, I guess kind of fast forwarding a little bit more to what were the effects that followed you through that? You said there were a lot of psychological, I know the physical and sure mental and all that stuff. So just if you would outline it for us, how that affected you in the years that followed.

Yeah, well, you could think of it just as a, this is a way you should talk about it just as a tornado of problems because you had two things going on. You had, uh, the trauma, yes, right. How crazy that story was and how difficult and kind of the mystery of good and evil, which is very often accompanies trauma and that was a difficult thing.

But then on the other hand, I had the, the neuro. Psychological effects, or perhaps for the podcast, I should say, I had the physiological effects of the brain injury, which were very difficult. You're concretely irritability, sleep conditions, depression, kind of a OCD, kind of an obsessive mind about all sorts of things.

It felt like kind of my poor brain, if you will, is just like on fire. Whereas before it just kind of felt more healthy functioning and active, right? But now it's on fire. So any little thing, and for people who have experienced this, they know exactly what I'm talking about. So I had that. And then let's just throw in some disassociation depersonalization where you literally feel, it's kind of like you feel dizzy, but you're living in your daily life, but you, you feel like you're not real.

Or you feel like life's not real or you feel like every day is episodic. So I, I experienced about 10 years, my friend, just to, just to mention this in particular, I experienced 10, 10 years at least of, uh, cause it's been 18 years now experienced 18 years of deep, strong depersonalization. Of the gosh, I know I'm real, but it kind of doesn't even feel like that or the outside world.

And it kind of feels like you're like a, but 10, 000 miles above your head. It's very odd. Like an out of body experience. That's right. Wow. Okay. Yeah.

And that's just to mention the physiological. That's not the psychological, uh, well specifically that's not a whole lot of the psychological of trauma. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Forgiveness. Hope. Meaning all those things 100 percent and I know we're gonna hone in on that because there's so many ways we could take this conversation, but Oh on the OCD bet.

Yeah, that is such a Understated problem that a lot of people deal with I know I've went through my bouts of dealing with it and no people Who, uh, who deal with it. It's so debilitating. So that alone is enough. But one of the things that strikes me is your, from your story is that there's just so much, like you said, a tornado or an avalanche is another way to say it.

It's just like, it's just over overwhelming. So it's just amazing that you're standing here today. Like there's so many people I think would be tempted to just give up. Mm-hmm. . And so it's, it's beautiful that you're here and you've pushed through all that and yeah. You've become like an inspiration for so many people too.

So I wanna shift to forgiveness. Yes. Everyone listening here, you know, has been hurt in some way, and they might see some value in forgiveness. They might wanna forgive, but they struggle. They struggle to forgive for any number of reasons. Has forgiveness been difficult for you? Uh, yes and no. I think yes, in the sense that, you know, I, I knew Joey when I went out there for, to be a counselor at the ranch.

I knew they were. Delinquent youth, they, they were in a bad place in life and likely they were in a bad place of life because of decisions that at least to some degree were based on unjust things that happened to them to both hand, right? All of this is contextualized by both hand. If you're looking for an extreme or just a simple answer in any of this, uh, perhaps, you know, well, I don't want to talk to you.

Because reality, one famous Jesuit said, reality is like a strong red wine. It's not for children. There's a lot to it. So, it's nuanced. It's not the black and white that is so often made out to be, especially in like our media. Um, or anywhere in the world really. It's like, it's not, it's colorful. It's like detailed.

It's nuanced. So yeah, I appreciate you saying that. Absolutely. And so the forgiveness of the boys, believe it or not, was much easier than other aspects of forgiveness because I knew, you know, I knew they're in a bad place. I didn't know they were going to do that of course, but they simply wanted to be free.

They were used to a drug problem. Um, I think two of them, it came out, we're, we're pining for drugs at the time and In, in the mystery of what can only be called evil. This is what happens that when, you know, there's something in between me and my addictive, uh, object or whatever that might be. It's like, it's not personal, bro.

I have to take you out cause I need this. The object of my addiction, uh, the object of my vice, whatever that might be. And so I was just taken out. And so I did pray, but, and I think there's perhaps a grace in this, but I, um, I did, I did forgive them, completely forgive them. And I do still. The issue of forgiveness that I had, actually, I had more of an issue when it comes to forgiveness with people who were deeply faith based, like I was going out there Catholic.

And yet after this assault, especially people associated with the ranch who knew this could mean bad stuff legally, it's like they kind of took off their faith hat and put on their I want to protect my money hat and you talk about getting fired up for being an anger and resentment, forgiveness. Really struggled with big time and, and that, that took years that took years because I, I didn't know what to do with that here.

I was suffering so much, honestly, because of the brain injury and then the trauma and you know, I was a mess and yet I did start full time work less than a year after full time campus minister, full time teacher, prep school out in Southern California and for a brain injury victim like that to start full time work less than a year after.

And it was difficult when I thought about how the people at the ranch associated with the ranch responded to my situation, protecting their money more than Being there for me supporting me even even kind of as a person that was difficult I understand again both and I understand you're gonna have to protect your place or your your your job Legally, but also to support a person who's gone through something very difficult.

I think is important They didn't so that took a while. I'm glad to say that has been reconciled to but that that took a while Yeah, I bet and it makes sense It sounds like the kids would be even easier to forgive because you kind of had that expectation of them being rough around the edges and struggling in a lot of ways, coming from really rough backgrounds, having that dependence on substances and stuff like that.

Whereas with the, you know, people who are leading you or in management, whatever, you had somewhat of an expectation of like safety and caring for you. So it makes sense why that would be the case. I had expectations of a perhaps appropriate response from that situation and In my opinion, the way I received it, I was like, what the hell is going on here?

Interestingly, the person I struggled with most after that assault, and I have no problem sharing this, is God himself. You know, when he almost died, it was an 80 percent mortality rate. In today's day and age, people don't often in the, in the United States of America, in these days, they, they don't often experience physical pain as a result of being on mission.

I did. And so I couldn't relate to Jesuits or missionaries to the new world with the, with the native Americans who did not understand why they were there and they experienced martyrdom. Some of them, uh, as well as the old Jesuits in different countries. in Europe and in Asia. I couldn't relate to those guys.

I know they died because of their faith, but I was in a different situation. I was helping out on a ranch a yes, because of my faith. I wanted to help the boys, but also because I was in the U. S. And that doesn't happen. So I had a little conversation with God. One time I said, I'm going to have to know all of these things are real, what I believe in beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Right now I'm struggling so bad that I'm wondering, how can you let this happen? How can you let this happen? I had a master's in theology, so I kind of knew the theological answers, at least to a degree, but it was kind of the personal existential things of this is just not making sense. And also the witness of some of these people, the Catholics.

And because of my understanding of how they had responded to the situation, I was, I was pissed and I was thinking, well, this doesn't feel real. If they believe in what they believe, how are they responding this way? And it was more than just a couple of people. And so I said to God very directly, what's going on?

I'm going to have to search. I was reading in a journal just the other day written that same year of recovery. I said to God, this is dangerous because you're putting them in the dock. This time I was, I said, I will not believe if there is a very, doubt that started a long journey of how to deal with this.

And, and God, I remember showing my high schoolers in class for theology that scene out of Forrest Gump where Lieutenant Dan is up, you know, up on high in the ship and Forrest Gump is worried about him cause there's a huge storm. But Lieutenant Dan had some things to say to God. He said, you can't hurt me.

Something to the effect of you can't hurt me. What I do remember is you son of a. And I think that prayer looking back was just fine. I think that's a good prayer. In fact, and I shared with my high school students sometimes in life, that's the prayer you should pray if you really want to know God and his will.

It's certain times that's a prayer because it's so real. It's so like, this is what I'm going through and not meant to be like, you know, if you're a person of faith, like disrespectful to God, it's more like, Hey, I'm struggling here. Like this is what I'm actually going through. I could put on a mask and pretend I'm not.

That's right. It's a lot of people do. I can be like super pious and everything on the exterior looks good. But interiorly, I'm just like so broken and struggling. That's exactly right. And I had to hold two principles. I had to hold the principle of fake it until you make it. To a degree, that's like the most practical advice we can hear in life.

And that is not being fake. That is putting one foot in front of the other to live a relatively productive life in the midst of going through difficulty. And then the other thing is holding this tension of God and daily life. By no means a simple thing, especially with the psychological struggles I was having, cause it took about five years after that assault just to simmer down that brain to, to, I would call still a, a high octane level, but it didn't feel as much like it was on fire.

And everyone who has had a brain injury can relate to this. Or if you've been the family member of a brain injured person. Yeah, no, that makes so much sense. Yeah. I think of like Navy SEALs who have TBI or like go through the traumatic brain injury, like that stuff. It's like, it's real. It's man, it's a whole world that I don't understand fully, but through your experience, it's um, super instructive and wow, that's a, it's a heavy cross.

And one thought on that is there were many years, right? Cause this is a many year journey recovery. It will be a, just a journey of one of a difficult thing I experienced in my life for the rest of my life. But there were many years of acute years of difficulty. Many times I kind of wish that I could have at least been part of a kind of banner.

Brothers, uh, seals certainly can have made it as a seal. Me neither, uh, but Air Force. I could have done Air Force , uh, or a different branch because at least then I would've had some kind of fellowship with people who had gone through it, or professionals who were there for like this huge group. I just felt very alone.

Because, you know, I did solicit help for the brain in psychology and they were helpful, but I was still walking that path alone. Wow. That was hard. Yeah. That's so isolating and so hopeless at times, honestly. Yes. So tempted to despair. I'm sure I've been there. Oh yeah. About 5 PM every day after my first year of teaching, I'd think, okay, this is a suboptimal situation recovering from this injury.

So experiencing effects in this job is a lot to deal with. So, brother in law. Where's the scotch? Yeah. I hear you. And I'm living with them. Yeah. Yeah. It um, it makes sense that we cope with pain in the ways that we do, even if they're not healthy. Like it's not something we want to continue doing, but I totally like, I get why people do that.

I get why I've done that struggle with vices in the past where it's like, yep, they, they serve a purpose. They're not good for us, but they serve a purpose and hopefully we can break free and find a healthier alternative. But uh, but yeah, I totally get why. Why we go down that path. That's right. And I like how you said that, that it makes sense.

And I would say actually it's natural as a Thomas Aquinas man, uh, started a nonprofit called the Aquinas Forum. I'm, I'm obsessed with Thomas Aquinas because more than anyone, a Dominican friar from the 1200s. Help my how my life get into that later if you want, but yeah, he's all about faith and reason and he's gonna say that if someone is deeply struggling, they are consciously aware that they want to feel healthier, right?

But then the question becomes what good am I seeking for that health? And he makes a distinction between real and apparent goods. So in that situation, uh, a scotch, uh, hanging out with my brother in law, a scotch, it's effects on the brain. It tastes good. It calms you down. Uh, good times of the brother in law.

That seems like a great good. And perhaps one day it is. That's awesome. The meaning of, of alcohol Aquinas says is festivity. So that's good. That's a purpose. That's good. Fine. But as it relates to a brain injury, it's not a true good. It's not a real good at all. It's going to be an apparent good. Wow. And that's kind of the drama of the moral life is, am I choosing real goods or apparent goods?

And it took me a while to get back on the train of real goods. Rather than just kind of quick fixes are going to make me feel better. But for people who are going through addiction or battling vices, it's a healthy psychological principle. I believe to realize there's a reason you're doing this loneliness, brain injury, hurt.

depression, uh, stress from job, whatever the vice is, it's, it's almost always going to be an apparent good to help you. And so the realization is you're, you're not weird for wanting health and trying to find something or, or experiencing something that does help you makes you think it's helping. But the reality of it is we want to be moving more towards those real goods.

Yeah, and things that are going to help in the long run, not just in the short term, not be like a quick fix. And yeah, I know for me as a teenager, it was pornography. That was my drug of choice. And, uh, it did, it helped me in the moment. It almost sounds scandalous to say that, but it's true. It served a purpose, but it was making me miserable.

And so I knew I needed to get that out of my life and I did thankfully, but yeah, I recognize now looking back, it's like, yeah, it did. It served a purpose and I wish I didn't fall into that, but. But yeah, I was in a very rough spot. There's a reason why you did it. Loneliness, what have you, you, and then you experience this and it draws you in to another world.

It would be actually a false ecstasy. And then when this takes over you, there's a, like, this is what I experienced. You think, what kind of person am I with all these vices must be some kind of a monster. Yeah. Because. So to speak of us takes over you. It literally does, but it feels like almost like another power.

And like you said, say, well, this was just the wrong decision. It, an Irish priest wants to find sin to me as it seemed like a good idea at the time. You know, everyone can relate to that. Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And I love where you're pointing people. It's like there's a, maybe, maybe one way to say it is like there's a little bit of a monster inside of us.

that like acts out at times, but we're both the good and the bad in the sense that, you know, if we choose to do bad, like that doesn't fully define us. Like there's a reason that we're doing that. We should stop doing that and do the good. Um, but there's a reason we go in that direction. And if you shame yourself thinking like that, I just don't just do bad.

I am bad. Then the chance of you like coming back from that is like. Greatly diminished. But if you can see yourself as like, I'm both the vices and the virtues that I hold, I'm both. And I want to reduce the vices and increase the virtues. But if I want to pretend I'm just the virtues or say like I'm limited to just these vices, then I'm going to be debilitated and probably give up and just live a horrible life.

Yep. That's right. Let's go back to forgiveness. Let's do it. Someone say it's easier not to forget. It's too much hard work. It's too difficult. So the question really is to someone, especially in this position right now, like they're, they've been hurt. They kind of feel like they should forgive or they've heard they should forgive, but they're not really compelled to do that because it's so painful.

Why forgive? What are some of the benefits that you've experienced or you've thought of, or you've learned from Aquinas about forgiveness? Well, first of all, you know, there's a sense in which there's a, there's a great dignity that should be given to someone who's gone through something very, very difficult.

You know, Pope John Paul II, one of my heroes, he writes this about suffering, that suffering is uniquely your own. Right. Hopefully that does not turn us into narcissists who kind of use that as a, is like a victim mentality and have a, like a flag over your head of look at me. No one understands me.

Although that is a feeling. Yeah. But I would say to that person, okay, fair enough. That's what you feel like is going to be a lot of work and sounds like you're an intense chapter in your journey. But, but let me ask you this question. Is it worth it? Is it worth the work? If you have a thousand pound stone on your back that we call resentment and hurt and you have a bridge that you can walk over.

That is a bridge such that that thousand pound rock will take off you does that sound appealing to you? Yeah, compared to just walking around in this valley with a thousand pound brick because I think the effect of unforgiveness and and hurt resentment bitterness makes it worth it to pursue a kind of alleviation of that rock.

So it was very practical. You know, I, I like to be a reality guy more than anything in the world. Please God. Very practically speaking, if you're struggling with unforgiveness about something big, you have a huge rock in your shoulder. And it helps when someone comes up to you who has a 500 pound rock or a thousand, perhaps a 10, 000 pound rock.

And I've met a couple of those people. And at one point they had that rock in their shoulders, but they don't anymore. And here I was at the thousand pound rock. It said, can we have a chat? Wow. So very practically I would say, I love that. And I want to continue on that road for a second. Yep. Yeah, just playing out like that resentment, like we don't really often think about like, well, what happens if you don't forgive?

How is that holding you back in life? Because that might feel like the default position. And so aside from resentment, and feel free to go deeper into that, what else do you think happens if we don't forgive? How does that damage us? Because we kind of think of it as not forgiving damages the person who hurt me.

But I've heard it said that not forgiving someone is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. Yeah, I think that's right. And again, the person I needed to forgive was God. That sounds so presumptuous. It's crazy. But you know what? That was real for me. Yeah. I'm a bit of a black and white guy at times of, okay, either this faith or my faith is true all of it, uh, or perhaps none of it.

Either God is control of everything. Because he's God so presumably he would be or or it's not it's the opposite So, you know if he isn't there if he isn't control of if he is not there He is not in control of everything. And so it's a total shit show It's total chaos and that's a trauma feels like that's what unforgiveness Can feel like because of the hurt that you're that your experience has caused And so with forgiveness and unforgiveness, again, that, that's a question that is, that follows a terrible experience, a bad experience.

What I want to focus on, uh, in my life and, and back then is the experience itself. It's kind of like, how do I process this experience? And then that dictates is forgiveness reasonable, is it not? If, if I would propose if God is not real, if he's not in control of all of this, including moral laws. A bad experience may be unfortunate for you, you feel pain, but it's not violating some ultimate moral law and everything is absolute chaos and contradiction.

That's a suboptimal place to be in life, feeling that. It's a heavy place to be, but, um, but if on the other hand that there, there's been an experience of reality in your life that is causing such a pain and this gets your question now. It's, it's a, it's a thousand pound rock you're carrying. It's a disease.

It's, it's, it feels like another person. You're another person right now. And so who the hell cares about forgiveness right now? You're conscientious and I was conscientious of this is not good. This is not a good feeling to have. This is not a good place to be. It feels like life itself is a prison. And so forgiveness is a possibility to help out with that situation.

And it did me. It did me, I'll, I'll tell you why, because, because forgiveness is a way out of that to some degree. But, but I want, I want to stop there because that answers your question. Yeah. I would not say it's unforgiveness. That is the, the main issue. The main issue is going to be the experience you had, 100 percent and the pain that led to and forgiveness is, is a healthy way out.

I hear you. Not the only bit. Hey. Yeah. No, I hear you. And I think some people hear about forgiveness and they actually think that they need to jump to that prematurely. Yup. It's actually something that happens like later in the healing process, if we want to call it that. That's not something that happens right away.

And I want to get into like the steps of healing, which I know they're not totally linear, but But I think there are some good principles that we can crack into, but it's like the word you just said a few minutes ago, it's nuanced. It's not other levels. Yeah, totally. But I think it's actually harmful to try to forgive too soon.

And, uh, one of the steps that are the principles that I've heard about forgiveness is truly understanding like the cost, like what it's, the ways in which you were damaged, uh, not to remain a victim forever. I love that you brought up the victim mentality thing, because I think we all could be tempted to that, but to, uh, to truly move beyond it, to close that chapter in your life and to move on, not that it will never come up again, but that you're, you know, in a better, stronger spot, you're able to move forward.

So if someone came up to you now and said. John, there's someone who really harmed me. I want to forgive them. I just have no clue how to go about that. What would you say? What advice would you give them? It's interesting, you know, it's been 18 years I get a, get a little emotional about that question because it's a powerful one.

The first thing I'd say to that one is if a person came up to me and asked me that first step is Let's grab a cup of coffee. I want to hear about your story. I call it swapping stories. Because it's a light way in. If someone's gone through something very difficult, I don't like to get into solution mode, solutionize them.

I like to say, dude, let's get together. Let's swap some stories. Um, within the context of that story, I think it would unfold itself, the pain, the difficulty, the hurt, and then that how forgiveness might be one of their main hangups to prevent freedom because unforgiveness, it's a grasping. It's kind of a false grasping in my experience.

Kind of a false control. You think, well, I've been hurt and I'm not going to be hurt again by whatever you, the other person thinks and intends or what have you. It can be even a kind of paranoia. So within that context, I try to find out where, where they're at and then perhaps skipping ahead, perhaps not, but I would try to share from my own experience and then ultimately pointing to reality that.

As difficult as the things are that we can experience, life is greater than that. Life is much greater than that. And I think forgiveness is typically associated with zooming in on something that seems to be all encompassing. And yet, if we can take a step back, and this is the importance of story and sharing your story, feeling like someone else freaking cares.

You can see kind of a bigger Vista, if you will, a bigger landscape and that that's hope. So Unforgiveness, I think is very much tied to hope like screw this screw that it's resentment mode. It's bitterness mode Whereas if you see a greater landscape of okay, this is a difficult thing I have to deal with and and the resentment unforgiveness I have But now at least I can see a greater reality that, that, that life may offer me an experience of joy and happiness that I could not experience if I keep zoned in on this terrible thing.

Okay, that makes so much sense. And I love that idea too, that you allude to, of when people hurt you, you rightly feel that they owe you some sort of a debt. I think that's right. Yeah, and so Unforgiveness, I guess, would look like demanding that debt in some way and I want to be careful here. In some situations, it's very important that person does pay the debt.

It's important that those, in my opinion, that those kids went to prison. Yes. Like they needed to. But... Um, that's not up to you to impose that punishment. It's up to a third party law enforcement to impose that so that you're free then to release them of any further debt that they might owe you. And so that's the act of forgiveness, but it's not easy and it's not linear and it's messy.

And I, yeah, I've been there. There can be things that you really hold on tightly. You want to forgive, but it's like, I just can't let this go at this point in my life. And if I, if you're there listening right now, I would say that's okay. Yep. Like, don't, don't force it. Like, you can keep working towards that, but it's not something that maybe you're ready to do right now.

Maybe there's some initial, like John's advising you on, like, maybe there's some initial steps that you need to be taking, like going deeper into your story. Having someone who's there just listening to you, walking with you, which will then free you to get rid of that resentment, to forgive and free that person of that debt that they owe you.

Anything to add? I, I think that's right. I think there's a lot, there's a lot there. I think everything you said is true. I also think that the biggest kind of principle for me going through all this was one thing. What is really real? What the F is real here? Because if I know it's real, then I can understand.

My terrible experience, I can understand people's responses. I can understand even my own, uh, interior world kind of according to that. If things are real, if, if you will, if things are stable and then if I can kind of seek to live a life in communion with ultimately what's real rather than get caught up in what I call kind of the, um, the, the spider web.

Above my brain of trying to connect all the pieces. And I did that for five years, if you will. I got a master's degree in that. And, uh, I said that master's degree sucks because it does not work. You're just chasing everything up in the spider web compared to asking that more fundamental, admittedly abstract question.

What is really real real? Because I think there's an answer. And when you, when someone knows what's really real and they live according to that. They, they know or they think that there is a pattern of reality, there are signposts. Within which we can contextual our contextualize our lives and everything we do and there's at least a sense of Okay, things are okay at root, but one of the worst things about trauma I think the worst is that it changes your understanding of everything whereas you feel like the cosmos itself It's spinning whereas if you ask that question, what is really real you take A slow journey to your point of understanding that then everything becomes contextualized unforgiveness.

Um, resentment, spite, bitterness, even depression. You can say, okay, this is an issue. This is very difficult in my life, but it's not what is most really real. And so I at least have a little bit of time and there's a sense of like, okay, I'm okay for now. I have a journey, there's lots ahead, but I'm okay. You know, I'm at least two degrees safe because I know that reality is safe.

Well, that's, that was a worse for me. It felt like reality itself wasn't safe. Yeah. Can I imagine like watching your back constantly? That's right. Even to this day, uh, every week, once or twice a week, I will, for some reason, it's a gas stations when I'm. Filling up my car or at the, at the counter buying a, a soda, I will feel like, like if someone's behind me just automatically not, not conscientiously or uncon it's, it's unconscious, but I will feel like someone's going to come over me and hit me on the head and kind of, kind of the, the, the feeling of shutters, you know, in the body.

And that, I mean, that's been going on Joey for 18 years and. It's not about a control experience. I still in control to this point. I think, okay, well, there it is again. Just experienced like 0. 5 seconds of terror. My goodness, but it was 0. 5 seconds, you know, and it's not real. Yeah, right.

Yeah. I think lots of people can relate to that kind of an experience. Yeah, man, that's intense. And thank you for sharing so vulnerably throughout this whole interview. Um, you are very real and what are some maybe myths or misunderstandings about forgiveness that you've observed that are like really, really unhelpful that you want to warn people against?

Yeah. I would say the first one and the most annoying is perhaps the cheesy cheesy. Or cliche, Christian one, including all forms of Christian. I happen to be Catholic. And so, you know, I'm Christian. And so, so a response of like, if someone says, do you forgive them? Say, absolutely. With a certain kind of tone of voice and kind of whisper.

And you say, really, man, and I want to punch these people. Um, But really, I don't because you know what they're trying to do? They're trying to do the best they can on their own journey. Yeah. It's more about them than about you at that point. It is. And, um, you know, okay, that's how they're dealing with. But the issue is, again, you just mentioned that word real and it's not real, you know, the act of the will.

Of forgiving and I like to get into that kind of, we need to define forgiveness. Please. That office is not defined and it's terrible. Great. Because if you're trying to do something that you don't know what the hell it is, that's not good. Cause you won't do it. Cause you don't know what it is. How would you?

Yeah. It's like. Well, I need to get healthier, but I have no idea what healthy is. And so I'm obsessing all day long about being healthy, but I don't know what it is. So I have to lean on my man, Thomas Aquinas, and I'm going to paraphrase him. If there are any expert Thomas out there, please forgive me, uh, for paraphrasing this.

But I read at one point is lightning bolt of clarity for me that he said, forgiveness has to do with. Seeing the other person as more than the harm that they've inflicted and seeking to love the wholeness of who that person truly is, rather than that experience of them inflicting harm. So good. Right.

And that comes from, uh, 800 years ago because the real is really real. It doesn't change folks, people in ancient Greece. Now it's the same humanity. Human nature is constant, doesn't change. And so forgiveness has always been possible since the dawn of human history. And so step one is understanding, okay, this is what that is.

Now the next thing becomes, am I going to buy an act of the will alone is the important principle here. Am I going to lean into that? And it indeed is a lien. I am a big fan of forgiveness as a journey. It truly is. It is not a journey of emotions. In fact, essentially, emotions has nothing to do with it.

It's an act of the will. A good principle in that, I was just thinking, if you're waiting for your emotions, if you're waiting to feel like you want to forgive the person, in a sense, like, you're going to be waiting forever. That's right. You'll be waiting forever. Yeah, that, that doesn't work. And we are in a hyper emotional culture, hyper emotional.

Now I'm a passionate guy. I've got Irish, uh, got Irish blood. John Slattery O'Brien, fairly Irish name. And so boy, I got that. That is difficult blood to have when you're going through these experiences. But I would say silver lining of my entire experience has been I have learned the relationship between emotion and will, emotion and intellect and will or, or decision, right?

And the re, the relation of all that to happiness. And, and I've learned that you can be living an objectively happy day and kind of good day. An order day and still feel like a wreck and that, you know what, that's actually pretty cool because at least there's peace because peace is a coin that says is the tranquility of order.

Peace is not some emotion, essentially, it's a tranquility of order and we feel that, right? And so, as it relates to forgiveness, if we make this decision to forgive and to grow in that forgiveness, we are choosing to see that person as more than just their, their harm, their evil. And because that's true, we can have the experience of a little bit more order in our souls, in our minds and wills, according to what's really real, right?

Rather than, okay, I'm going to focus in on the harm, the inflicted, and it's going to be the only thing I see. And it's going to make me just, just a bitter, unpleasant person. Well, a, that's. That sucks. B, it's actually not accordance with reality as much as seeing the person for who they are as a whole. And so, that's where it begins.

If people don't know the definition... Like abstractly, we still know what it is kind of enough, uh, but it does help to get into what it is per se. So we begin that journey with the will. And then all of a sudden, you know, we do is I think, you know, is what I experienced. We become a little bit more integrated because we're seeing the whole, you know, think of just the most bad military person you've ever met or firefighter or doctor or cop.

They have seen everything. And you know what? You go up and talk to them about it like, man, what have you experienced that you've seen? And it's just been a nightmare. And they're like the chillest people on earth. They see reality more than more than they would if they're just zoned in on that one particular experience.

I want to be very clear. Again, there's a both hand, both hand. Yeah. It's not some simple answer that clears everything up. The good news is, is that. The real is really real and we can seek to live in accordance with that with reality and then we Become in time. It's journey of integration a better scenario a better kind of place to be on the journey I would say then sitting in your home obsessing about how much you hate this person.

Yeah. There's so much freedom there and kind of leaving that behind is, you know, when I share these things become a, because I'm a pretty philosophical guy. I am concerned that it's a little bit over the top abstract. What's, what's your sense of that right now? No, no, I think it's helpful and I think maybe being a little bit more general is helpful because then people can fill in the blanks, you know.

I think that's right. Uh, I like general. I think that's a good word because general again relates to that sense of reality, like reality is bigger than we make it. And the important thing is to gather principles for this and to, and. We're not alone and there are principles and reality is big and then there's hope.

Yeah. So you don't need to be a philosophy just nerd like I am to, to, to want to go on these things. They think the important thing is in some sense, even better is to just have a kind of on the ground understanding of these principles. So good, man, this has been so enlightening. I've learned a lot from you in this interview and I appreciate your time And just if people want to go deeper and learn more about Aquinas about what you offer.

Tell us about your nonprofit What do you guys actually offer and how does it benefit people? That's right So I have a nonprofit called the Aquinas forum started three and a half years ago, and it's very simple It's an independent nonprofit that helps people grow in faith and, uh, develop a Catholic worldview.

Uh, it's all about faith and reason, the relationship between faith and reason, which is constitute a lot of our chat here, because it's easy to live based on only faith, we call that fideism. Not paying enough attention to the here and the now the order of nature of reality or to live only off of reason which is going to be rationalism and Because there's a relatively because there's a clear limit to our reason that is not going to give nearly as much kind of hope and Greater view of the landscape of reality or even what it could be if you don't have Faith and so both of these alone, I would say Are not ideal.

Whereas if you integrate these things, that boy, that's a, that's a beautiful life. Again, my hero, Pope John Paul, the second said, faith and reason are like two wings upon which the human soul ascends to the mystery of God. You know, that's good. Yeah. And it's real. And so I started this nonprofit to help people grow on that.

I worked at a parish for a number of years. I felt like I learned some of the skills to do this. So, so to speak, I had a product to offer, started this nonprofit. We do different things locally conferences, books, studies, classes, but then I've also opened up this wing through my website. That we offer people free resources for small groups.

Nice. The how to guide for leaders or hosts, as well as the studies themselves written by some great authors. And it's, it's actually helping people to what, to grow on what's really real scripture, little bit of philosophy. Uh, we have Bible studies up now and it's good stuff and the hope is, well, the hope is hope in a sense, wherever you are on the journey, that the real is really real and that there is hope ahead.

There are good things ahead, and they're actually good things right now for your life. Love it. Yeah. And so whether someone's maybe been on some sort of spiritual journey for a while, they can join, or if someone's in the beginning of it and just like questioning things, they're welcome as well. Is that right?

That's right. So locally we have things where people can come and they can come from any faith background or none. Uh, because Thomas Aquinas, it's the Aquinas Forum, he is all about. He was all about one question and that's this what is God and so Through reason and faith he explored that and so we have lots of people that come that are just kind of seekers Yeah, you know, what is this?

Is there anything to this? And that's good. And in time, we're starting to open up other Aquinas forums throughout the country. We have two that are about to open and that's why I named it forum. It's a forum where people of any faith or the Catholic faith or no faith can come and explore the deeper questions of life.

And then also the small group, the small group initiative we have through the website that helps people do that in what I call their own corners of the world. So living room. Thank you. A tavern, whatever. Love it. Yeah. I love that. You're facilitating that and guiding it. That sounds amazing. Uh, how can people find you online?

Uh, Aquinasforum. org. Just go and check us out. You can find the email there, uh, the info email that will come to us or, uh, your, your, I can give my email now, my Aquinas Forum. Yeah. Are you open to people contacting you? Absolutely. No. I love to chat with people on the journey because, uh, candidly, that's what I was looking for for years.

Again, kind of a unique experience, faith experience I had on the ranch, trauma, but then also brain injury that that's, that's quite the intersection of things to go together. And I just wanted someone to chat with and swap stories. Eventually found one or two is great. So I'm, I love to do that now with, with other people.

And you know what I like to say, and I've found this is a great principle of freedom for other people as it has for me is this, uh, there's no red bow if, if we go through something terrible in this life. There, there, it's okay that there's not necessarily going to be a big red bow you put on top of it of like, this is why it happened and this is what it means in a holistic sense.

Trauma, it's intuitively bigger than that. That's why we have to ask the question, is there an afterlife? Because as Plato said, injustice will not be corrected in this world. I mean, Hitler killed how many millions of people, right? That's, that per se cannot be corrected in this world. But in the afterlife, through justice, and through how God deals with all of this, and including the victims of what they've gone through, we have great hope, for different reasons, that this can be reconciled.

And so, just want to help people with that. Try to offer some initiatives that can slowly, uh, including me meeting up with people. We won't talk about a red bow But we will talk about some principles. I think that can lead to greater freedom Happiness really? Yeah. No, that's so good. We all want to be happy and No, I love what you said and I love that you're so open and so generous with your time.

I appreciate you offering that. Yeah, I'm happy to. This has been a great treat. Yeah, and everyone listening right now, if you're just wrestling with those big questions or maybe you've never thought about those, um, I would say you are worth seeking answers to those questions. Like you deserve that. You deserve asking those big questions and finding answers and this is one resource that you can use.

to do that. So how can people contact you if they, yeah, so again, it's Aquinas forum. org is going to be my website. And then my personal email through the forum is John J J O H N at Aquinas forum. org. A Q U I N a S isn't Sam forum. org. Love to hear from you. Beautiful. And we'll throw that in the show notes.

So you guys can just copy and paste that as well. Want to give you the final word here. What final advice? Encouragement challenges would you offer to everyone listening, especially those listening right now who feel very stuck because of the trauma they've endured in their lives. Like what would you leave them with?

Keep moving forward. Keep moving forward. For 10 years of my life, I felt like such a wreck and I would consider man. You know, in a sense, what, what would be the greatest encouragement I could hear right now because there are so many questions and thoughts and feelings floating around that, you know what I wanted?

I wanted someone to say, John, uh, the most valiant thing you can do right now is keep keep moving forward. Put one foot in front of the other on this road to greater health. Because there are answers and I felt like that was the greatest thing I could do and wherever you are, whatever you're going through, if you are putting one foot in front of the other and you're moving forward, even if that's so slow.

You want to take bigger steps, but you can only take a small step. That's what you have control of, and that's where you can find heroism.

If you want more content, more guidance on the topic of forgiveness, I highly recommend episode 58 of the show. I spoke with an expert who did his PhD dissertation actually on forgiveness, lots of great advice in that episode. Again, that's episode 58, or you can just click on the link in the show notes.

Quick reminder that if you'd like to offer your advice on how to make the podcast even better, just go to restoredministry. com slash survey, answer the questions there and submit the form. Again, restoredministry. com slash survey, or just click on the link in the show notes. And if you do that by November 15th, you'll be entered to win a hundred dollar Amazon gift card.

That wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them. Honestly, once it's over, just take 30 seconds to share this episode. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life.

And keep in mind the words of C. S. Lewis who said, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#103: How Does Your Body and Brain React to Trauma? | Patricia Scott, LPC, PhD Candidate

What happens inside your brain and your body when you endure trauma?

Surprisingly, there’s actually a predictable way that your body and mind responds to trauma. In this episode, we break down each response with a trauma therapist. We also discuss:

• How her parents’ divorce impacted her

• Is healing trauma even possible? If so, what does it take to heal?

• How to apologize the right way

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

What happens inside your brain and your body. When you endure trauma, it might surprise you. But there's actually a really predictable way that your body and your mind responds. And in this episode, we'll break that down. We'll break down each reaction with a trauma therapist. We also discuss how her parents' divorce impacted her. We asked the question is healing trauma even possible. And if so what does it take to heal it? We touched on some really interesting facts about human development too. It's really important stuff to know if you want to heal and grow and thrive in life. We even discussed parenting and this stuff is relevant even if you're not a parent or you won't be for the next 10 years and how to apologize the right way and finally share for some encouragement and advice to anyone who feels broken and stuck in life. So, keep listening. Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents', divorce, separation or broken marriage so you can feel whole again and break the cycle. I'm your host Joey Panelli and this is episode 103. My guest today is Patricia Scott. She is a licensed professional counselor certified in trauma therapy and a phd candidate at Ducane University in counselor education and supervision. She graduated from Franciscan University of Steubenville with her master's degree in Clinical mental Health Counseling and from Argos University with a master's degree in sport and exercise, psychology. Prior to that, she completed her bachelor's degree in psychology, philosophy and theology at Franciscan University. You heard that right? A triple major. She served as an adjunct professor of psychology and social work at Franciscan University and adjunct faculty member at Ducane University. After treating clients as a therapist, she now works on the management side of a counseling practice as the director of data management and analytics. Petty loves to play volleyball, spend time with her family and close friends and most of all play with her nieces. Uh she lives in Boulder Colorado with her dog, Mr Darcy. So Patty is brilliant if you can tell and that's a good friend of mine. I'm just so excited for you to learn from her. Uh In this episode, we do talk about God and faith. And so if you don't believe in God, you're totally welcome here. Anyone listening to this podcast for a while knows that this is not a strictly religious podcast. So wherever you're at, glad you're here. And if you don't believe in God, my challenge to you, is this just listen with an open mind even if you skip or take out the God parts. You're still gonna benefit a lot from this episode. And since we recorded this in person too, you might hear her dog in the background. So just be aware of that. Here's our chat, Patricia. Welcome to the show. Thank you or Patty. I might refer to you as Patty. It's really good to have you. I wanted to have you on the show for a while and as we usually do on the show, let's just dive right in. How old were you when your parents separated and divorced? I was a junior in college when it officially happened. And I say officially, I found out my sophomore year of college, my mom had told me that her intention was to wait until my younger brother went to college to divorce my dad. So I knew a whole year ahead of time. So it officially happened once my younger brother was a freshman. So that would be my junior year of college. Was that kind of a burden? It was, it was, um, I was thinking about, I was reflecting on that today and just thinking, you know, what are the reasons I felt like I could have said something. I should have said something and really it comes down to just a few scenarios. Either I tell this important information and things get worse because he didn't know or I tell him he makes an effort or they both make an effort. Things get better or I tell him and I see that he makes no effort and it's heartbreaking. Um But either way I felt like being told that before it happened, put a lot of pressure to build an alliance to my mom because it was this big thing that I was told not to say anything. So having to hold on to that, I think it, it did burden me and pressured me into an alliance that I didn't want to have any alliance. I mean, they're my parents. I love them equally and that's not my information to hold. It's not my information to know. So no, that's difficult. And you know, I could see from your mom's perspective, too kind of want to prepare you. But at the same time, it's yeah, there is a burden to carry around both and the aspect of wanting to inform your dad. But also probably your brother too, knowing that kind of they were waiting for him to kind of move out and that's a lot to carry. So, ok, and I got the impression that I was the only one who was told, I'm not sure. So I'm not sure if I was being told to prepare me for it or if I was being told because she wanted to tell somebody and your child is just not the appropriate person to tell. So true. I'm glad you said that because I think there are a lot of parents listening to who are going through a lot of messiness in their marriages and trying to figure out what to do next. And I think it's important to remember that Children are not meant to be emotional confidants or not meant to kind of fill the role of a spouse or even to become a parent. And it's so easy to do. Like I get why it's done, but it's so damaging, especially when you play that out over years, like ruins, the relationship creates a really unhealthy dynamic and it becomes really sad. I've seen situations where the kids just don't want to talk to the parents at all years later. And it's how sad. It's almost as if every conversation is approached with a new hesitancy because you don't know if this is going to become a conversation about you and dad or you and mom, you just don't know. So it feels like every conversation is all of a sudden unsafe to have because it's so easy because you, you shared a life with these people. This is your family and the simplest of things is not doing the dishes or not doing the preferred way or not cleaning your room. You just never know what can lead to a conversation. Oh, I remember your mom or your dad let you do this and everything can turn so quickly. Yeah. No, I hear you. And we must develop these multiple personalities in the sense that we need to be one person around, like dad, one person around mom, one person around like maybe certain relatives or friends. And it can be really challenging to juggle all that. I know, man, there's so many heartbreaking stories of kids who literally had to juggle their lives between two homes and then everything else that comes along with that like bringing different bags to school and all that good stuff. So it's not good stuff. it's heavy stuff and uh yeah, it's, it's tragic, but I'm glad you said you love your parents because I know, um there's sometimes people get the impression that if you speak honestly about what you've been through that somehow you're putting them down or condemning them or saying that you don't love them. But I, I usually kind of cheekily ask, you know, do you hate your parents? And you already answered the question? And that's, yeah, it's, you know, we love our parents. Um, but in order to, I think to, to heal and grow, we need to be honest about what we've been through and we can do that in a way that still honors them. I am, I think the love I have for them has deepened in a sense because I've seen them, they've become more human and as I've grown older, I understand what it means more to be human and to be fallen. So I think being able to reflect on that each year, not that I make an active effort to reflect on each year but each year, like, you know. Yeah, exactly. There's, you know, it always comes up in some way it comes up or I think about it or a conversation happens and it just, that gets brought up. So, seeing more of their humanness and growing up and understanding nobody is perfect. So still it doesn't invalidate the good things they did. As a parent it doesn't take away or make worse the negative things that happened. It just makes it more human and making it more human is really humbling to see myself progress as a fallen human. So it's almost as if I understand them a little bit better and I not that I sympathize or I have compassion for it. I don't think I ever would and I don't think, I think it's ok to not just seeing it, their humanness helps me grow in love for them. No, that's beautiful and no, I could say, you know, being married and having a baby girl and you know, being a parent, it definitely opens your eyes more to you definitely can understand what your parents were going through. But at the same time, you can still kind of hold that standard up and say like no, what happened was damaging. It was difficult, it was in some cases even wrong. Yeah, you can say both of those things at the same time. So I'm curious how did all that affect you, we talked a little bit about it. But how did that play out in, you know, the years that followed? Honestly, I think there was some of God's grace at work in the timing of it, even though I found out as a sophomore and I didn't want to know that initially, it did make me more angry and anytime I would come home during that year and I was, I was more anxious because I was just waiting to find out that papers had been presented or there have been discussions with lawyers finding things out, just waiting to have this burden lifted from me. I do think there was graces in it though. I think waiting until the last kid was out of the house and in college was a smart choice. So even though you're going to do this monumental, you know, damaging thing, having an appropriate sense of timing or respect for the development of your Children and you know, with the timing of it, I think makes a difference. And so we were out of the house, we didn't have to see what happened. So I didn't, I don't know what happened on a day to day basis. None of us did because even though they were living in the same house and they were going through this divorce, none of the kids were there in the house. Now we all saw what led up to it. So when we heard the divorce, you know, I was like, oh, well, that makes sense. Like finally kind of thing. So I do think there were some graces. I, I can see that I was definitely angry and anxious. I, I think that was more leading up from a sophomore year when I found out it was going to happen to when it actually did happen and then when it did happen, I felt a big sense of relief just not because it was happening, but because I didn't have to hold that information anymore. So after that, I think I more felt a sense of relief and I was curious to know how things would happen. Whose house would I be coming home to for Christmas or Thanksgiving? You know, I didn't know that information yet and it wasn't, it wasn't figured out. So I think having it where I was away at college, it did help and I think that minimized it. I think there was a lot of safety nets there because I had a community. I had my faith. I had things to fall back on. I had school as a significant distraction and that was my vocation at the time. So I would have to really, really think and see like what were the immediate effects of it during that time when it was going on? I mean, the divorce officially, all the paperwork in courts going back and forth just ended this year over a decade later. Oh, my goodness. I didn't know that. Ok. And we're good friends for everyone listening. Yeah, I didn't, I mean, there was, I thought a lot of the stuff was over. So, I mean, the divorce itself was done but then the battles for, am I getting paid enough? You know, like going into those things, you only have so many years. So obviously it's half of the marriage in years. And so that finally is over and that, so all I would hear about is the court battles, blah, blah, blah. So now that's done and I don't have to hear that anymore. So there's a lot of relief in that I'm sure for everyone involved. But I could see especially for you and yeah, no, that sense of relief I think makes a ton of sense. And I've heard that from other people too because I remember one young woman saying, you know, her mom approached her and told her that she wanted to divorce her dad and kind of put her in a weird spot. She didn't know what to say to that. But one thing she knew was she just want the fighting to stop. And so I totally get that sense of relief immediately, especially. Was there anything else that you can kind of tie back to? Yeah, just the breakdown of your family and the divorce and everything that maybe played out years later. I mean, there's some major things I would say that play out later. But they played out in the time they played out during their marriage. So from a younger age, I obviously had a love for our faith. I had a love for theology. I had a love for church teaching. So when I first learned what marriage was learned this, this is great Sacrament. And I remember talking to it about my, with my siblings and my parents. When I say siblings, I don't mean all of them. I mean one sibling in particular just to clarify. So I would talk to about to my older sibling uh because she was also very active in our youth group at the same parish. And so I remember bringing it up to her. I'm like, oh, I just learned about this and she was like, oh yeah, our uh some of this was my mom's second marriage. Her first marriage was Sacramental. It was never an nulled because she felt at that time she was so young. She didn't have a full understanding of it that if it was to be annulled, it would be as if she didn't exist. And so that was her conception of that at the time. Obviously, that's not the case, that's a very harmful thinking and that really should be addressed and it just wasn't addressed in a healthy way. So my parents' marriage was a civil marriage. So as soon as I heard that all I could think was man, I don't want either one of my parents to be in mortal sin. I want them to divorce and knowing that I had, I think I had that thought probably around sixth or seventh grade was the first time I thought that but they should not be married. Like it's not even a sacrament. It's a valid marriage but it's not sacramental. My mom has been living in mortal sin in this and my dad's participating in it as the sin of scandal. I want this to be over and thinking, you know, it doesn't take away any of our identities as kids in a family. It doesn't take away any of that. I just wanted it to be done because I didn't want either one of them to be hurting their soul in that way. And it was very difficult to the only person I tried to articulate that to was my youth minister and my older sister, I never said that to parents. But I do remember feeling that sense of like, oh like, ok. And I remember after that would be like mom, you want to go to confession with me, but you never know if someone's going to realize that level or degree of sin and actually bring that to confession or want to, you know, have that, that cleansing from it. So knowing that it definitely put a different filter on relationships, it put a different filter on what I see marriage being and the intention behind it and having it being sacramental and the value of that as I was growing up more in high school years, not seeing what I would consider a healthy marriage, seeing more fights. I was very hesitant to get into any kind of relationship with people because I thought that's all it was. This is just someone that you fight with regularly and they just can't go anywhere like they have to come back. You know, that's kind of what my conception was of it a little bit like, ok, this is someone you have kids with, you get to fight with them all the time. But I realize as an adult, all I saw was the fighting. I didn't see the resolution. And that's something as an adult, as a therapist. Whenever I talk to people, I said the most important thing in my opinion that you can do as a parent is resolve conflict in front of your kids because so frequently we all learn how to fight. We all learn how to fight fair, we learn how to fight unfair, you know, I mean, we learn how to backstab but we don't learn how to resolve. And that is the most difficult thing. Like we rarely, probably rarely hear how to even properly apologize to someone. And now that's such a big emphasis in my life. Like when I apologize to someone, I have like a specific formula that I follow for even making an apology because it was something I had to really learn to dive into because I never saw that example through my parents. And that was hard, like realizing that like first time in the inkling England 6th, 7th grade, going into high school, seeing it more and then have developing, you know, more deep relationships with friends, seeing the importance of it and then going to their houses and seeing that their parents had such great relationships and they were playful, you know, things like what like what was in their water today, like what is going on here? So seeing that is a big gap in the knowing that something is missing in my life and something is missing in their marriage and it's not healthy, like there's something unhealthy here. So I had to do a lot of observation of other families and other married couples to learn what it is. And through God's Providence when I went back to school at Francisca, and I lived with a family, the most amazing family who they really taught me what it is to be a Catholic family and have a sacramental marriage. I mean, they're, they're beautiful. So I think they kind of were like the positive influence that kind of took away a lot of the negative effects. I mean, it influenced every single influence relationships I had from friendships to romantic interests. It affected everything of not knowing and thinking, ok, this person is just going to fight with me and leave me you know, how long do I have with this person? Because they're probably just going to leave me whether it was a friend or not. And that was, that was a definitely a hard thing to have to think of. Like, how would you enter any sort of relationship? I know I felt the same way. I remember as like a 12, 13, 14 year old, like in the years that followed my parents' separation and later divorce. I was like, I will never get married. Like just like you felt, I was like, if this is where it leads, why in the world would I want to put myself through this? Because it was super painful for me even from the outside. And then I, you know, was able to think through like, well, it must be really painful for them. I don't know what it's like, but it must be really painful. So why would I want to put myself through that? So, yeah, and I love what you said about observing, you know, healthier relationships and how that, you know, it sounds like it gave you hope and it also kind of taught you well, this is what it looks like, this is what it should look like. And I know that was super helpful for me and we've heard that trend a ton on the show and the interviews we've done. So it's really, really beautiful. I want to go back to the apology formula. You got me really intrigued. I know everyone's like ears lit up when you said that. So what is your formula if you're willing to share? Yeah. So and this is not, I don't have the book references. It's upstairs in my library somewhere. So when you are apologizing to someone, you need to acknowledge what it is, you did and you need to name it specifically. So it's not just saying, I'm sorry that you feel bad. I'm sorry that upsets you. Well, what is the that of that statement apologizing for their feelings? And you can't do that? Your feeling, your feelings are your own. I can't control how you, I mean, I can influence and anticipate what your feelings might be through my actions. And so that is part of my responsibility, however, I don't have full responsibility over your emotional reaction. That's yours. So when we apologize to someone, you're like, I'm sorry that made you upset. Ok, great. That's not an apology. The apology is discussing what that is. So when I apologize to someone, I want to make sure that I go over the exact action that I believe I was wrong in doing or was unjust because it's not always something that you're actively doing wrong. I think it sometimes can also be when you're not being just towards another person which could be that you neglected to act or you acted in a way that could potentially be harmful or you're just wrong with something, you know, you could say something that wasn't factual in the heat of a moment and it was inappropriate to say so that I think owning up to the specifics of what it is, you are acknowledging you did wrong then recognizing how either you anticipate or you think not anticipate again, that would be worse. But how you see it affected them. Whether or not your reflection on their reaction to it is accurate or not. That's not the really important thing. It's acknowledging that you, it's a way of seeing them of understanding. Yes, this is, I have been acknowledging what it is. I did wrong. This is how it affected you. At least I could see this is how it affected you. And this is why I really don't want to do that again. You know, you saying something I suppose not say I really, I couldn't stand your shirt and I made a terrible comment about it. Is this an actual statement? Right? I just kidding. No, that's a lovely color. So I might say, you know, Joey, I'm really sorry. I made that comment about your shirt. It was really inappropriate and disrespectful for me to say. And I can imagine how disrespected you may have felt and I don't want you feeling that way because I do respect you and I do care about this relationship and I wouldn't want to have you think that I don't care about you. So I'm really, I'm really sorry that in the heat of the moment I disrespected you in that way and that was wrong and I will do my best to try and not, you know, make a comment like that. So adding a little bit of um and not just saying, I'm sorry, like everyone can say, I'm sorry, not everyone can apologize. An apology is really what repairs a relationship and that's something when I go back to what I said, I heard my parents say, I'm sorry. Tons of times. I don't think I ever heard them apologize. Oh, ok. And so that's something, that's something I had to learn over time. And when I actually started practicing it, it is tough. I don't want anyone listening to this thinking that following the formula that I just did is easy. It is so incredibly difficult. Like I'm getting goose bumps, just think about how difficult it is to do. And there have been many times where it brings me to tears just because you feel the weight of it. It's almost kind of a pseudo confession to someone who's not a priest. You're really acknowledging what it is and taking responsibility and giving that action a name. And when we give something a name, we can take ownership of it and we can do something about it. It gives us a new found power over it. So that's really good. Yeah. It's very difficult to apologize. It's easy to say. I'm sorry. It's difficult to apologize. Yeah. No, that's so good. And, yeah, I think one of the things that I struggle with when it comes to apologies is there's situations where, like I was genuinely trying to do the right thing or I thought I was doing, you know, what would help that person and then there's like, either a misunderstanding or it's seen in like, a bad light and that gets really frustrating. It's like, I don't want to apologize in that moment. Like, no, no, I was actually trying to do the right thing. So that could be tricky. So any advice there for people listening who are, you know, they literally feel like no, no, like I was literally trying to help and I did something that was then perceived as harmful or whatever the thing I think with that it's, we do need to be careful of what we say, the reason you're a what it is you're apologizing for because if you genuinely did not commit an offense, you did not do something wrong. You did not do something unjust, then really what you're doing is is making a comment or having a conversation to repair that relationship because I, I don't think we should start apologizing for things when we didn't do something wrong or when we weren't unjust. So if your action, whether it was because you think you were doing the right thing, if you were genuinely doing something that was correct. And right. And just to do, you don't apologize for doing something. Right. And just, we apologize for doing something that was wrong. So I think having that distinction is really important and that's how we would approach it because it's a different type of conversation. If it's the conversation where you did do something, just, it just didn't turn out the way you wanted and it had a negative impact on them or negative influence on, on the person. That's a conversation of repair and bringing up the intention of this is why I thought this was correct. I can see perhaps I didn't go about it in a way that was going to be positive. And so I can see how maybe I did, I could have approached it differently. And the reason I'm even bringing this up is because I do care so much about you. I wanted to do right by you. I wanted to help you. And so in my perspective, I thought I was doing that. I can see that perhaps I was incorrect. I was wrong in thinking that but again, you're not apologizing for what you did. If you didn't do something unjust, then we don't, we shouldn't apologize for doing something that was correct to do. We can apologize for how we approached it. Perhaps it could have been something that you actually talked to the person about first before you did it or maybe it could have been something that you acted on it out of, you didn't use proper prudence or temperance and you acted too quickly and you didn't reflect on the situation enough. So, in that sense, you can bring that up. I just, I don't personally, I don't think, and that's tough. It's really tough on the receiving end because you want to hear that someone say like I was wrong. But when they think about it too, if you didn't do something unjust and you were not wrong, you should not be apologizing for it because you didn't. There's nothing to apologize for so that it's more a conversation to repair. Yeah. No, that's good. And I think, um yeah, I think that's freeing because, you know, I, I think at times as humans were falling, we can be malicious, we can be nasty. But a lot of times I think there's frustration in relationships where it's like there's just misalignment like you thought the person wanted this, but they actually wanted that and they were kind of put off by you trying to do the first option, you know. So I've definitely seen that play out. I love what you said about the resolution though. And that's something you taught me actually. And that I've tried to live out not perfectly um bridge and I try to do that with Lucy, especially if she sees us, like having some sort of conflict and, you know, beyond just maybe a little bit of a dialogue, like if it's something that, you know, becomes more of a conflict, we want her to know like, hey, we're fine. Like mom and daddy, love each other. We're not, nothing's changing. We're just, you know, we just had a disagreement. We had a little bit of a conflict and trying to explain it and then saying, like, we love each other and being so young right now, uh we try to show that in some sort of a physical way like with a hug or a kiss or something. Yeah. Again, we don't do that 100% of the time. We're not perfect. I don't want to give people an impression. But uh it's definitely been very, very helpful and we've seen that also with her like she lights up when she knows that like everything is ok, like there's peace in the home because it's crazy how little kids like they become very perceptive to those things. And uh and so it's, it's really helpful for so parents listening, it's a great tip. It's something that like you see an immediate effect with. And so it's something you can implement right away. And I think to add on something to another layer, having a resolution or presenting one, it also needs to be developmentally appropriate to the child because if it's not, then it's going to go way over their head and they might not realize that was actually resold. That makes sense, you know, so in the way you display it. I mean, because you can show that to Lucy at, at a young age that she is, you know, you can role play things like even sharing basic things. You wanted a toy, she ripped it from your hands. You guys fight about it and then you have a resolution. You can physically embody that and that's something that will stick because then they will pick up on that. That's the correct behavior. Even if this is something I want and I rip this out. That's not OK. Here's how we resolve that. Whether it is that that gets removed from me and hand it back to whoever or I learn to share better, whatever the case may be, it's not always my dog is snoring in the back. Yeah. So having, having something that's developmentally appropriate as a resolution, I mean, obviously as kids get older, letting them hear those discussions to the point that's appropriate for them and again, to the degree that is appropriate for them just because someone has the capacity to understand the argument and all the, you know, the words that are being said does not mean they should get all the information. So even having resolution be presented because you can, you can go fight in your room, you can have the resolution be done in your room. In private, there needs to be an additional public display that's appropriate for your Children to hear because that's what you're teaching them if they saw the original discriminated. And I think that's, I think that's what's so powerful is that you don't have to do it perfect every time. That's why you don't need to do it in front of them every time you can go resolve it in private. But then when you're ready to come back out, you need to show that there's power in having a public display of a resolution. And I love what you said before too. You just never saw that side of it growing up and then you were exposed in other relationships and you learned it, which is beautiful and that's such a hopeful message to anyone listening right now, especially maybe you're going through your parents' divorce like in the moment and you're just in a like dark tough spot. There's a lot of hope at the end of the road, there's a lot of hope ahead. So keep your head up. Um Even if it is really, really painful and hard right now. So, yeah, I love that so much good stuff there. And like I said, it works. It's, it's really, really helpful and the more you practice, the better you get at it. I mean, even if you're doing it in private and you come out and you do a role play, you will only get better at resolving things and doing it publicly. I mean, there's no downfall to it. Yeah. No, 100% and it is, um, you need humility, kind of going back to that apology. And that's, I think that's the challenging part for me. I know that's pride is easy to, uh, it influences your behavior, actions and if you're not humble then, yeah, it can be just horrible for your relationship and I've certainly struggle with that. But, um, when you are humble it's beautiful and it ends up making the relationship and it's, it's a good reminder to your kids that you're on the same team. Like the team is your family. And even, even greater than that is the priority of the marriage that you two are on the same team as a married couple as parents. And then your whole family is on the same team. So, when we don't have that, I mean, that's something I didn't have. I didn't feel like our family was a team. I didn't feel like my parents were a team. I could play off of them like a fiddle. Not that I don't play the fiddle. Who knows? Maybe I could have. I tried, but I would get a yes from this one and a no from the other. And I would play that all day easily and I knew exactly which scenarios to go to which parent for, to get the answer I wanted because I knew they were not a team. And so that's just, that was definitely a hard thing to learn. And that was something that I could see influence my relationships, even friendships if I had a disagreement. Stonewall. No, it was so much easier just to cut someone out and not try and resolve it because I didn't know how to resolve anything. Yeah. How would you? You never, I mean, some things, I mean, I don't know. I wouldn't call it a supernatural gift. Although, and I don't mean supernatural in like a hero sense. I mean, supernatural is a grace that was given to me. I felt very, very protective of friends. And so even if someone got bullied, I would go and confront the bully and say, hey, that was not ok. What you did, I want you to come apologize. And so I would, I would do that. I started doing that in like fourth grade when bullying became like, you know, more prominent when we get to fourth grade. And so I just hated bullies. And I mean, I certainly, I know there was comments I said that I can think of to this day. I'm like, man, that was really rude. So if I ever came across that person, I probably would apologize for the things, some things I said, oh, even now, but it was just, I learned that it was so much easier to cut someone off instead of doing the hard work and no one wants to know that they're wrong. No one wants to think they're wrong. No one wants to hear they're wrong. We all are very prideful and having a sense of pride is a good thing, but it, obviously it can go too far, too quickly when you're not willing to submit yourself. I mean, especially this is your spouse, you're on the same team, not having the willingness to submit for the sake of your family, for the sake of your marriage, for the sake of Christ. Like for, there's so many things that go into it just for the sake of goodness, you know, for the sake of growing and becoming a better person. I think it's extremely, that's probably one of the most difficult things to actually live out. Yeah. No, I, I can agree with that. Let's stay here for a second because we have some parents or people who will be parents, future parents and they may be wondering, I know, I kind of wonder this. Now you're making me think, what do you do as a parent when kids try to, like, pit you against each other? Because they're so good at it because they're so good. I remember doing that as well as a kid. And so, yeah, what do you do in this situation? Have a game plan going into it? We all know kids are going to do this. Even if, even if you're a great example of a marriage, kids are going to do that because they're not going to be satisfied with a no answer, no kid wants to hear it. Can I have a dessert? No, if you said that I was going to go to mom or dad and I'm going to figure out who's going to say yes. And then I'm going to go to that person to get the answer I want next time. So having a game plan ahead of time and just having the default statement of saying I need to talk to mom about it. I need to talk to dad about it and just doing that and knowing that if that becomes your go to phrase, they will stop asking you, they will stop asking you because they know they can't play that game with you. And even if your kids are doing it now where they're pitting you against each other, you can start doing it. Now, it's going to be an uphill battle. It, it absolutely will, it will get worse before it gets better. And it could be that your spouse gives in more because it is tough. It is tough to maintain a new behavior, especially when you know that behavior is going to be a painful growth. You're gonna have some significant growing pains for your kid, but it will get, it will get better if all of a sudden they realize, ok, every time I have come to you with this, you said I need to talk to mom or I need to talk to dad first and not even giving them an answer. And that's, that's the important thing is not giving them even your preliminary answer. Cut it out completely and say no, I need to go talk to the other parent and then we'll give you an answer. So please don't ask me about it again until I have a chance to talk to mom or dad. That's so important because if you give them a preliminary example or the preliminary answer, they think that that's going to be the final answer. And so they might become even more upset if that's not the final answer. So it's better just to leave that out completely and say nope, I need to talk to mom or dad about it first. So like a scenario I know with Lucy, she's so funny. She has this like motion that she does when she wants ice cream. Like we try not to give her too much ice cream but she like imagine licking ice cream. She does that she goes and that means like I want ice cream. And so one of the mistakes I'm realizing I've made is I say, well, it's ok with me. If it's ok with mom, it would be better to say because then all the pressure is on her and then she'll be actually disappointed, but it's better to say like let's talk. I need to talk to mom. I don't know yet if you can not talk to mom. So OK, let's get him learning. Thank you even saying that, that little piece. He said, I don't know if you can yet because even that statement signals to the kid, it's up to mom. I see because you have just acknowledged that you don't have the answer and that you have to ask mom because mom holds all the power. Ok. Yeah, because then you're basically putting all the power and pressure because then because the kid is going to question, well, why don't, you know, I'm asking you, you're my parent, you know, so obviously depends on the cognitive ability of the kid. But that is something that they will catch on to. I mean, if I'm able to catch on to it in a second now, kids, kids get that so much quicker. I mean, they will believe your behaviors so much faster than they believe your words. I mean, they will just read that for days. So it, it even though it as difficult of a suggestion as it is just not giving any kind of answer and saying I need to talk with mom about it first, then I'll let you know, please don't ask me about it again till then. That's it. I mean, something different in the dynamic of I have my nieces spend the night with me usually once a week and I have done that since I moved here in 2020 which has been amazing. I love being able to give their parents a date night because I think it's so important for spouses to have a designated date night and have it be as routinely as possible. So they have it usually once a week, at least during the school year, it's always once a week and when they're at my house, because I have seen at their house that dessert is such a problem whether they haven't eaten enough to get dessert or they don't get the dessert of the choice or they misbehave. And so dessert is taken away. I mean, it is, I mean, it's just a nightmare. It's like a nuclear bomb just went off in the house. And so in seeing that I was like, nope, that does not fly in my house. I will not put up with it. So we do not do dessert in my house, period at all. They never and so it took a little bit for them to because initially we did and it started off with they would never finish it. So they would insist on having their own. We would get like a little mug cake. So it's like an individual cake. You put the mix in your cup and then you put in the microwave and you just eat a little cake out of your own little personal size mug, but they would never finish it. So I was like, ok, well, I'm not going to try and get you to finish your dessert just for the sake of finishing it. I'm just going to take it away because if you really, all you had was one bite. So you two can either decide to share or we just won't have it. They didn't want to share. So I said, ok, we're just not going to have desserts anymore, then that's fine. So they stopped expecting it and it's never a problem. So now if I give them a dessert, it's like this huge surprise. And so now you can ask my sister this, I think it was two weeks ago when I brought them home, she just sat at the other end of the counter and she goes, so I'm just curious, is there anything that mom and dad can do differently to help you listen to us better because you seem to listen to Peter so, so much better. There's never a problem. You don't throw temper chances for her. What is it? And it was her Aunt Leila's answer was very interesting. She said, well, Peter Rat doesn't give us warnings. She says sometimes when you give us a warning, I get anxious and I think I'm going to make a mistake. And so I get more emotional. If I do make a mistake, this is coming from a seven year old. This is pretty profound stuff for a seven year old to be saying in Lucy, you know, she chimes and she goes, yeah, parent doesn't give us warnings. She just tells us what happened or if we did something wrong we resolve it and we move on like there is no warning, there is a correction and that's it. So, I mean, it is the case when I thought I was like, man, do I ever really good warnings? Like no, actually I, I really don't. And so we don't have issues and so having different set of expectations and being prepared for those, like not simply not having dessert, period. There's no expectation for it. So there's no temper tantrum. There's no emotions around dessert. If you get it, it is a genuine treat. So it's never about you have to finish your food. You don't, you can't merit it at my house. And that seems to help. The master is a little tiny. I know dessert is very, very small, but for little kids, it can be really big deal when you're trying to get them to go to bed. So it's just an easy thing to do. I mean, it's not really easy because obviously if they're so used to it, it, it takes a long time to get out of that habit. But it is possible. I don't even remember where that tangent started. This is good. No, I appreciate you going into this and I'm learning and I know everyone listening is learning too and just to be clear to everyone listening, I do not have Children. I have nieces and nephews and I adore them. So I love being the thing that they get to come hang out with. Yeah. But now you have all your background and studying human development and helping people in that way too. So that's certainly helpful. And no, this is really good stuff. Going back to your story a bit. We were talking about just how your upbringing and what you experienced at home impacted you personally and we got into your relationships. Was there anything else you add about your relationships? Whether it's your friendships, dating relationships that you saw, like, were affected by the, there was this little thing I didn't realize how big of a deal it was until I started dating someone in a very serious way. And I can see a serious future with holding hands. And the, and the reason was I never saw, I think I can count on one hand, the number of times I saw my parents hold hands. Yeah, exactly. And when I think about it, I'm like, man, that's when all the other functions are gone. When you can't be physically intimate with your partner. If you or your spouse, you can't have a conversation with them because maybe you're mentally, not there or you're sick and you can't kiss them. What's the one thing you can still do is hold hands and so never seeing that really growing up, I realized how, I mean, I'm also a physical touch person that's really important to me. So, seeing that that wasn't done and it's such a simple thing. And then when you see like old people holding hands, you're like, oh my gosh, they are just the cutest thing ever. Like you have to ask yourself, what is the reason I'm having that reaction to seeing some strangers hold hands or why do I find it so annoying? When I see a couple at a table who are just like following each other's hands, you're like, ok, guys eat your dinner, you know, but there's something really, I think there's something so powerful about that because I mean, our hands are very, very sensitive and we use them to speak, we use them to do day to day action. So we use, they're so profound. I mean, we wouldn't really be humans without our hands, you know, like obviously there's much more to that statement. This is just a very simple thing, but I didn't realize how important holding hands was until I met someone that I really, really want to spend a future with and thinking man, my favorite thing like when I and don't get to be around you, the one thing that I want to do is hold your hand and it's because I never saw it. And so I, I explained to him, you know, I really think the most important thing to me is to make sure that if we, if we're still together, if we get married, we have kids that we better hold hands, whether you are upset with me or not. If I reach for your hand and you deny holding my hand, like there will be hell fire running down. But I just think there's such importance in holding hands. Like because even if, even if kids are not comfortable hugging or they're not comfortable sitting next to you or they're not comfortable with any kind of physical touch. Generally, they might be ok with holding your hand. Like because it could be a safety thing like crossing the street. So they get used to holding your hand for some reason. So there's so much about holding hands that I think goes understated. Yeah. And I didn't realize that until I was an adult and then when I realized why it was, I realized I didn't see my parents hold hands. Yeah. OK. Now that makes so much sense. It's such a primal thing to I forget if this was in a talk or something. But when we're meeting someone for the first time too, you might have even taught me this. The, the act of like shaking a hand or showing your hands is actually on a subconscious level. Like we did have this conversation many, many years ago. It's like a signal of safety. It's like, oh, they don't have like a weapon again. It's like a primal thing, but they don't have a weapon in their hand. They're not trying to hurt me. They're giving their hand as like an extension of vulnerability and trust And so that makes sense. Why that would be that important to you? That's cool. Anything else that you would add about, kind of the impact on your relationships? I would say the intentionality of approaching relationships. So I'm just now entering into a relationship where I'm like, ok, I'm on my end. I'm like, 1000% positive. This is the person I want to marry and then having that hesitancy of, well, I've met lots of people who were wrong, who may have had that same thought. So how could this be different or how can I better prepare myself? Because, I mean, the last thing I want to do is think of what kind of letter would I write in an annulment to try like annulment process to say that I didn't know or that I wasn't prepared and I don't want to ever be in that position, you know, I mean, it's just, it's interesting because I, I mean, I didn't really know the annulment process until I met someone who had gone through it. And they had to have, they had to write their own witness statement, but they also had to have friends, either the person like the best man or someone at the wedding party or just someone who knew them intimately, they have to write in a statement as well to support that. Let's explain that a little bit for people who don't know what we're talking about. So, I annulment is saying that valid marriage was never, is it valid or sacramental marriage? Sacramental marriage was never created or I don't know what the right term there is. It never, it never take place. And so there was like an appearance, but there was some substance was missing, something was lacking essentially. And that's a longer conversation of like, well, what are the different property or what are the different things that need to be present? That's a separate conversation. But in this context, we're talking about, yeah, when you go through that process, you're essentially trying to explain why you think there were those things that were lacking that did not allow you to enter into a sacramental marriage. So that's what you're talking about when you're writing that statement. Yes. And I can't remember if it was in a movie or if I heard a story about some kind of mobster or gangster or something. I, I remember a story though that each time this person had gotten married that he would write a letter explaining that he really had no intention of being faithful, didn't want to marry this person, but wanted the appearance of it to be a sacramental. So they wrote a letter prior to the sacrament taking place so that when they wanted to get a divorce, they could because they had written this letter beforehand. And so I think that's kind of where I can't remember where this came from. But when I heard of that. I was like, man, it's that easy. It really is the intentionality of it. So I don't ever want to put myself into a position where I have to think back on a time that was positive because I don't think anyone really looks back at their, their wedding in that time of marriage prep thinking I should not get married. I mean, I think there are people and if that's the case, then there is grounds for annulment because obviously that is indicative of some kind of pressure or there was something withholding and not allowing them to express their full free will in that. And obviously, that's a condition for it. But thinking how, how best can I prepare myself for this to know that this is a good decision and not just a good decision, but a real decision, one that has firm grounding like I'm not just standing on sand. And so now like I'm going through a book that says, you know, 100 and one questions before you get engaged. And it's really because you've mentioned how helpful it's been. We've only gone through eight questions and we this has been weeks and the conversations end up being more than an hour multiple times. I've cried just because some of them are really difficult to have to think of because you have to, you're explaining things that you don't want to shed light on. But if you're going to be spending your life with someone. There's a lot of things you need to shed light on and to make sure that, you know, that you are entering in this with a full and free knowledge of someone and that's so difficult and, and I'm not sure that my parents had that at all. And so I think that's something that from seeing an unhealthy example of a marriage thinking how can I prevent that or guard, not prevent it, but guard myself against that. And I think a really good step to guard yourself against that is to do the really hard work before you initially say yes, I'll marry you. I love that. And it's really tough. Like we've only gone through eight questions and it's been like nine hours of us talking and like I said, I mean, it's, it's emotionally really good, but afterwards I feel so much better, like it's just, it's not a weight off my shoulders. It's not as if I'm withholding anything. It's just being intentional about the reason we're asking these questions is because we are discerning if we should get married or not. And so I think it's so important. So what are some examples of the questions just for anyone who's thinking like, yeah, I could really use that in my relationship. Like maybe they're in a dating relationship or maybe they even are engaged and they're trying to, you know, further decide discern is this really the right person for me because that really is what engagement is. It's a time of like further sermon. So I'm just curious. Yeah, what that book is like and what some of the questions are? Yeah, I'll just go through the first question was great because obviously it opens up a space for the further questions. The first question is what makes it easy for you to be vulnerable and open and what makes it difficult? Obviously, that's very intentional is the first question because you want to create a space where you are willing to be vulnerable and open. Because if you're not, then you shouldn't go through this book. Like if you can't create that or they can't provide that or they're not willing to work on providing that, then you've got a problem. Yeah. So if you can't make it through question one, you have got a problem like that's a big red flag right there. If you, if your answer is I'm not willing to be vulnerable in front of you, do not proceed until you, you address that. Um One that was very difficult for me. Uh Was the question, how do you maintain healthy interdependence? So I've been on my own for so long. I can move myself from house to house, all by myself. I can do fixing things around my house all by myself. I can do a budget all by myself. There's so many things that I'm completely capable as a human being to do all by myself and you just have the temperament to just being a very independent person like me, I, I've always, I've always had that. Like, if I see something that needs done, I'm just going to do it and even if I think someone else could help me with it, if I think it's going to take them longer to do it, I'd rather be more efficient and do it myself. So it's very tough to say, ok, how am I going to actually allow this person to enter into my world and me give up something and allow them to do something for me. Even, even like how I put groceries away in the refrigerator, the simple thing, you know, it's something simple or how I fold a towel. I'm so used to doing it the exact way I have done it for so many years. And now I'm going to not only give up that desire for how I've always done it, I'm going to allow someone else to do it for me or they're going to allow me to do something for them. Like the, the humbling aspect of that. I mean, it's even just ironing someone's shirt for them, you know, like everyone's capable, not everyone, I guess, I don't know that for a fact, but many people are capable of ironing their own things but allowing someone else to serve you in that way. And that's something that I think is very profound. I've always wanted and I have a very strong desire to serve others and act like act of service. I think it cannot be understood. I think it's a great thing and it's something we should all practice. Not because it's our love language just because we should do that. We should sacrifice that because it's, it's saying that you're worth my time, you're worth this effort. I think it's extremely important. So this question, I think we, I think we talked about this one question for two hours and I was bawling because I was like, I like, that's one thing I'm so petrified of is that I'm not going to know how to give something up even though I want to, I desperately want your help. I want you to be able to do these things for me because I want to be able to receive that love from you in that way. And it would be great. I'm just afraid that I'm not going to be willing to actually give it up to allow you to do that whether that's my pride or just anxiety popping up because it's something different and I have to get used to it. That was a really tough question. Yeah. No. That makes so much sense that I could see the, this book being a great conversation starter and it gets to the root of, you know, so many of those foundational things that you want to be on the same page. On when it comes to at least to know kind of what to expect moving forward. So, wow, I love that and I could see how that would be super, super helpful. So, anything else before? Yeah, I would say there's one more question, that's a beginning question that was really profound and I didn't limit it. I, when I read this, you'll know that there's a one specific sense of this statement, but I took it in a different direction. Obviously, that's just if there's one direction, I'm always going to go a different one. So what have you learned from previous relationships that will make you a better spouse uh for someone at this time? And so when we hear the word relationship, we're thinking romantic relationships, I didn't take it that way. I thought of how, what's my relationship as being a daughter? What's my relationship as being a sibling? What's my relationship as being a friend? What's my relationship as being, you know, beloved daughter of God? What have I learned from those relationships that make me a better person to make me a better spouse? And that was, I mean, that was tough, like just actually thinking and reflecting on that because I mean, like, yeah, I think it was so great. Yeah, I do, I do think I'm great. I think I'm a wonderful person. I think I'm a worthwhile person. But what has helped me to get there? And it is a very humbling experience to actually reflect on the ways you haven't been a great friend or you have missed opportunities to serve others. And so thinking of that and thinking, how has this made me a better person now, or how is it going to make me a better person in the future as someone's spouse? A tough question? That is a tough question. So good though. I'm glad you brought that up and I think it's an excellent resource for everyone listening, especially people who are entering or in a relationship to help, you know, further discern if this is something that could turn into marriage that could go down that road before we transitioned into talking about trauma. I'm curious, what were a few things, the two or three things that helped you cope with the pain that you were dealing with and also to heal? Like, what were some things that helped you cope and heal? I think first and foremost, not being in the environment. And I can't even say how it helped me because I have no idea what it was like because I wasn't there. But I can anticipate what it might have been like because I can reflect on what our family like was like when I was there. You know, the all the arguments and things like that and unhealthy behaviors and patterns not to say that there weren't some healthy ones too. Of course, there were. But I mean, we're kind of primarily looking at the ones that are more unhealthy. So I think the most powerful thing that was helpful was the fact that I was not physically there. And then I, where I was at college, I had, I had my faith community. I had my friends, I had sports, I had my classes, I had positive things that were actively engaging me instead. So I only had to really think about going home for the major holidays or for break and I imagine things probably would have turned out very, very differently if I had been there, if you were in the midst of it. Yeah. No, that makes sense. Um, and that's something that we recommend from time to time. If things are so intense and toxic at home, it's good to have a breather. It's good to have some space. It can, it can be very, very helpful in terms of, yeah, just helping you not be as emotionally distressed and maybe acting out in different ways trying to deal with the pain that you're experiencing. So I'm right there with you and I think even beyond that, uh, now that I think about it more, but if you really care about your Children, the way that you imagine yourself to care about your Children, if you're going through a divorce and there is no way for them to be physically somewhere else like they're not off to college, they are there making sure that they do have the positive relationships and positive outlets and that you encourage them to maintain their level of participation if not increase it. I think that's something to really think about. Obviously, I, I can't say one way or the other. Um, but I do think that would, I mean, it would only serve to help, you know, to make sure that you're encouraging and not, not limiting it because you're fighting or you're having a bad day. So you're just going to cancel a play date or cancel that sport or cancel that practice. You know, I think encouraging it more and making the effort more to ensure that they have all these, what we call protective factors in their life. Um So maintaining those, if not increasing them for your Children, that makes sense. Was there anything else that was healing for you? It was a long road of healing, you know. Yeah, there's, I would say it all comes for me personally, it all comes back to prayer. And I, during that time, I felt most at peace when I would be able to go to daily mass. I mean, we were very fortunate that the Franciscan University to be able to have three different masses to choose from. Now, it's four, I think masses to choose from on campus. So being able to just offer, I would go first thing in the morning. Um And I did that, I think the majority of the time I would I would go to usually would always for sure. It would always be lent. I would always make sure. Ok. No, this is, I have to go on them but then I would just continue it and it would just kind of just stuck. So then when I got back I'd be like, oh, I would just go anyways. Um, so at that time I hadn't always gone to adoration routinely, but I always went to mass. And so just having that, having that way to start my day and pray the rosary. I mean, I don't, there's no way we can understate that. I mean, it's the source and sum of our, our faith. So allowing yourself to be drawn in and, and knowing that you're not always going to feel good when you go, just the action of choosing to go, even when you feel like a wretch, even when you feel like there's no way that you could even force a smile from your face. Like the greatest effort you're making is getting yourself to get out of bed. You have to remember you by doing that. You're telling yourself more than you think, by choosing to get out of bed, by choosing to maintain your commitments, by choosing to engage in mass to, by choosing to engage in prayer. You are in a very real way telling yourself just how much you are worth it. And so when you had people in your life that maybe weren't telling you you were worth it or that's your perception of it, doing those little things for yourself or you might not be actively telling yourself you're worth it. But you really are in a behavior sense. Ok. Now, that makes sense. And that almost goes further than words for a lot of people at least, which I, which I like, I want to transition into trauma. I don't know, we don't have too much time left, but I'd love to know we've talked about trauma a bit on the show. But I'm curious, uh what's the definition of trauma that you uh for me, the definition of trauma is having something that stresses your resources beyond their capacity. So it could be because trauma can happen. I mean, usually we think of it in a negative sense like post traumatic stress disorder, we think of that, but in a, a lighter sense, it could happen when something really good happens. Like anything that really stresses all of your resources to the point where you do not have the mental, physical emotional resources to continue on at the, you know, maintaining the same level of behavior that you were the same level of competence that you were to me in that sense, it is a trauma. So it could come even from the birth up a new child, that's something that is so gloriously wonderful. But for that short period of time, it can also be very traumatic on us because it is pushing through every single resource you have. And if you don't have additional people to make up for the resources that you're now stressing like family or friends or community, then it can become a problem very quickly. But when you do have those and you're not stretching out every single resource you have till it's bare minimum or its absence, then you're just going to remember that time as, yeah, it was stress when it was hard but it, it was wonderful and I want to have another one. But when you don't have that, your idea is no, like having another one that, that becomes the most difficult thing that you don't want, you want to do. But at the same time, you don't because you know, the stress and the trauma that is going to bring you because your resources are just going to be blood dry again. Ok. That's super interesting. I've never heard anyone that it get a totally different, totally different one, but I think it becomes more applicable to many more things. I wouldn't, I would say my definition. There's definitely some capital t traumas that we would say. But I would say it really acknowledges a lot more of the lower case t traumas that we can experience throughout just day to day life. I'm not saying that it's gonna have a lasting impact, but I would say that I would qualify it as it was one, it does affect you. No, that makes sense. I want to go deep here. What happens inside our bodies, inside our brains when a traumatic event occurs. And I know it's a big conversation. But yeah, let's chip away at it. So, I mean, there's lots of different theories. I mean, essentially we engage in our fight or flight response. And so usually initially, we are startled by something that's the shock of what took place, the event itself and then we can go into our fight or flight and how someone's going to respond to that, it's everyone can be different. And many times we can be shocked, I think by how we react because we can say, you know, well, I always think I, you know, I would be someone who reacts this way if I was given that situation, that might not be the case. You know, it might take you actually being in that scenario to realize how you would respond and it could be completely different than your personality. I found that out the hard way when I had to go through my own trauma, I think, knowing, realizing that I'm a person who's probably going to freeze when everything about my personality, if you met me would tell you that I'm fighting 100%. And so, I mean, that was really even that in itself realizing that and reflecting and I was like, wow, that was in itself very traumatic and very hurtful. Like thinking, I actually for a period of time, thought less of myself because I was like, man, you rose, you didn't fight the way you thought you'd always fight and maybe because you, maybe you weren't capable, who knows? Like I don't, I can't completely say everything to that state, but all I know is that I, I totally froze and that was not, that's not who I am. That in day to day life, that's not who anyone would think I am. And so you learn a lot about yourself. So then after that, the fight or flight, then we have, you know, we, we can go into a freeze and then we have what we consider an altered state of consciousness. So that could be where they, you know, we could think of it as you're in shock or you have an out of body experience as if you are, you know, detached from yourself, watching it happen like you're a witness to it now, um that's a very common thing for people to report happening. And then after that, we, we kind of start to return. And during that also that altered state of consciousness or that out of body experience, you're really not aware or you may not be aware of the physical bodily sensations that are going on. Like you might not feel it like some people who don't realize that their limb was just cut off and they don't feel anything until they actually look at it and then it clicks with their mind that your arm is missing. You should feel extraordinary pain right now and they don't feel it until they actually look and acknowledge it because they're in such an altered state of consciousness that it takes them coming back down. And when they actually are in a place that self repair is the, is the very, what we consider the very end of it. When they start getting into that, they can act. That's when they'll start all the body sensations and thoughts come back and you could be capable of feeling. So between the out of body or the altered state of consciousness and repair, we can go into what we consider just an obedience state. And this, you see a lot with first responders, someone comes to rescue you, they give you directions and you're just going to blindly follow them. But this can be something that is for better or for worse. Uh because it could be someone who is harming you that you're now obedient to because you're just in that you're not fully capable of your own free will in a sense because you're just, you're not in your right mind and that's just a response from it. And until you're in a space where you can be safe, whether that's emotionally or mentally or physically, you're not gonna really get out of that, you're just gonna be listening to the directives that are given to you and God willing, it's going to be through someone who has your best interest and is there to protect you, like someone, you know, officials out of the police or fire department or, um, an EMT. And once you're able to do that, then you can kind of go into the, the self repair. But even the self repair doesn't always mean that it's gonna be positive. It can be something that, and I don't even really want to say negative. It could be something that is life impairing might be a better way of saying it. I mean, we could become more obsessive compulsive with things. I'd say that's probably a very common one. I, I saw that in my own life. That was definitely the path that my trauma took. I mean, it could be with how we eat, it could be with how we exercise. It could be with different addictions. I mean, usually it's very behavioral. That's, that is the one theme of the self is that if it's going to become an issue in how you live your life, it's going to usually come out in the behavior of some kind. And for me, it was definitely the obsessive compulsive of needing everything to be within my control because I wasn't in control and I had a sense of obeying someone that I did not want to because I froze because I wasn't able to fight or fight. And some of that and some of that, when you, when we say fight or flight, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm physically fighting you or that I'm physically, you know, it could be that you're stuck and you freeze because you are physically not able to fight. I mean, and that's a very real thing that people need to acknowledge that sometimes we physically cannot fight and we physically cannot flee. And so our body just start, we just go into a freeze kind of state. So when we come out of it, our self repair could be that we are now in need of absolute control over every single piece of our life. And for me that could have, that came down to how I clean. It came down to how I organize things. It came down to how I put away silverware, it came down to how I fold things, how I organize my closet, everything had to be absolutely perfect. And if it wasn't, then I would get extremely frustrated and I would be easily become angry. Yeah. Um And I usually wouldn't be angry at myself like it would show up in some other relationship, like I would get set off by something little. But it's really because I couldn't keep this, this one thing to be exactly the way I wanted it to. It makes so much sense. And now I like how you said, the self repair is really just a way to kind of feel some level of normalcy back in your life or to get yourself out of a maybe super anxious or super depressive state, like an emotional equilibrium, which makes sense. And there's some really unhealthy behavior that actually does that. And so that's what you're saying, that it serves a purpose. We don't want to continue down that road, but it's there for a reason. And that's often what kind of brings us back to that. And you might not even recognize it. Like a lot of people with mine didn't recognize the obsessive and compulsive behaviors that I was doing. They just thought I was super organized and super on top of my life, like, like type a personality and really, no, my personality is, yes, I'm a very organized person. I prefer to have my life organized. I prefer to anticipate my day to day. Like, I prefer to anticipate three months from now, to be honest. But I can allow to have dishes pile up. I mean, usually not very much because I don't, I have a routine and a habit that I generally don't let that happen or I could go a day where I don't make my bed even though generally I usually do every morning. So it could be things that we see as good behaviors or good traits or things, you know, sense of perfection that we want. But it, it's, it's unhealthy because it was impairing my life that it was affecting how I saw the world. It was affecting how I was able to interact with other people because I couldn't do it. And that's, that's the thing to watch out for, for people. OK. That's good. All right. I want to explain and kind of this whole model one more time and we can use me as a guinea pig. OK. So, so I remember when my mom uh I talk about this sometimes on the show. So forgive me if this is repetitive for some of you listening. But I remember when my mom broke the news that they were, my parents were getting divorced, I was 11 and it was so shocking, like it literally shattered my world. It was really difficult to hear and all. Yeah, I remember that that sensation of like being startled, like kind of looking in disbelief at my mom. Like is this real, is this like actually happening? And then having the reaction of just like crying and, and feeling really angry kind of simultaneously? And so all I could do in that moment was flee. Actually, I remember, yeah, just going hiding in the closet to where like no one could find me. And I was just like kind of suddenly sobbing and just like really, really, really angry. Yeah, kind of like that. Maybe I don't know if that at that point, I was having the psychotic body experience, but I can see how these stages play out. So with that example, if you would kind of explain the model again to make it a little bit more concrete. Yeah. So in, in, in just hearing what you said, so obviously, the startle is very obvious when you hear the news and your fight or flight was very obvious when you said you went into a closet and you started crying with it. Um So the altered state of consciousness would come in or how we would in within this model describe based on the details, solely the details that you gave me. The question is this real that going through your mind and having that doubt and that would be considered for this model and altered state of consciousness that in in this therapeutic approach, we would address that would be what we used for the alternate of conscious. Is that just sense of gosh, how could this be real? How could this be my real life like that is alter state of conscious? Doesn't mean you have to be like hallucinating, you know, it doesn't have to mean anything like that. It could just be that, that sense of doubting the reality of the situation in a very simple way that makes sense. Now, for the sense of automatic obedience and the self repair, based on the details of the story provided, I wouldn't be able to say that this was, you know what that was what was going on. I imagine though that some of the body sensations or the attempt to self repair for you. If you were putting yourself in a closet away from other people crying, you probably, or may have very well had your arms wrapped around your knees rocking yourself as a way of attempting to comfort yourself within the tears. Yeah, that's what it was for sure. That's, that's something that we in an attempt. If you always grew up knowing that was a pattern of comfort for something that brought you comfort, then that very well could have been the self repair that you were attempting to self soothe. It may not have been what actually brought the repair and usually it isn't because it's, it can happen in a very all these things can happen in the span of five minutes or they could happen in the span of five years. We just never, you never know like someone could be um like there's people who are all of a sudden in a clinical sense they have are presenting with schizophrenia when really that's just an altered state of consciousness. And once the trauma is resolved, the schizophrenia may very well go away or diminish to a significant degree where it's no longer clinical, like clinically impairing their life. And schizophrenia again, just for this thing where you're going to be having disorganized thoughts, you might not even be able to string a sentence together in a way that's cognizant to other people. You probably will have either audio visual hallucinations, you may smell things that aren't there. You may have delusions, either of gran or you may think you're Jesus Christ, you may think that everyone is out to get you different things. So it's definitely you are out of touch with reality. I see kind of a break from reality. That makes sense, right? Which is why that would fall in some people who are just in an altered state of consciousness from a significant trauma may present with schizophrenia. Hm. Wow. Ok. I didn't know that that's profound and yeah, and that makes sense with the example I gave how maybe not all the stages are in there. But if I were to continue telling this story, I know for me, one of the things that I fell into which I've shared openly in this show was, um, yeah, pornography became kind of a self repair because it was a distraction. It was something that was brought relief. It brought pleasure, obviously, it brought, yeah, just kind of a way to like emotionally regulate. And so I can, I totally see that as an attempt to self repair as well. But yeah, I don't, I guess the obedience thing I didn't see as much or I'm having a hard time like putting my head around that one. It might not be that every single one of these the phases might not be present in every trauma, right? Or you might not even be able to identify them. You simply we don't always know. That makes sense. I can say I had kind of some weird situations where I've pulled up on like car accidents for some reason, like a good amount of them and try to help the people, like hop out and help. And in those moments you can tell, like people are like kind of during the headlights sort of look that startle and then yeah, they'll do anything you tell them at that point, like if you tell them to like, stop, if you tell them to get out, like whatever, it's, it is profound. So you can clearly see that like anyone who's ever been in that situation or maybe you've seen it on TV or something, you can see how, yeah, that obedience kicks in and hopefully it's with a person, like you said, who's trustworthy because then that's a really good thing. I doubt you could talk to any firefighter EMT or police officer that has not experienced that during, you know, approaching, um, some traumatic experience that someone is going through. Yeah. No, that makes so much sense. Anything else you doubt about the motto in terms of the phase, the phase in itself? No, it is a very, I would say it's a difficult model to go through. Uh So part of the premise is that it's not just discussing these different phases. So what we would have someone do is draw them out and that can be extremely difficult. I mean, not that it can be, it will be, it will be very difficult to do this. However, I have seen people who I had a client who every single minute of every single day was scheduled because she presented, she had sexual trauma for when she was less than two years old and she presented with significant O CD. And so to the point where she wouldn't even allow herself to go to the bathroom until it was time on her schedule for her to go to the bathroom. And so her day was so rigid because she lacked so much control in her life. And that's just how it presented. So it was extremely difficult. And I worked with her for a couple of years and we went through and by the grace of God, she was willing to give this a try no matter how difficult it was. And we went through and she drew out these different stages for different traumas. Then we put them up on a board and I retell the story back to them, but we tell it in a way that usually you put something over their eyes so that they can focus with just one eye. And so that that will help them see it in a different it, it changes your perspective. So it alters the way our brain takes in that information by kind of providing almost like a tunnel vision of it. And so it also provides detachment because when you look through a telescope, things can look, they look far away. They're not, they're not completely present to you. So it's you're telling the story back so that I'm an audience to my own story now. And by doing that, it allows us to close the story because generally what we're seeing is that these different mental health disorders are presenting because that story was not resolved. So when we're, when we're able to start a story and end the story or the trauma, we're able to resolve it mentally and they can file that away and put it away and not have to bring it back out unless they willingly want to and then they can move on with their life. And so this was, this was someone who from every minute being scheduled to not having to schedule anything and living her life freely being able to engage in relationships. I mean, it was a significant transformation but it was extremely hard. I mean, there were some days where even I didn't want to go through working through the therapy with her because it was, I could see it was such a struggle for her. But I also I didn't want to see it's not pleasant content, you know, asking someone to draw out some of the most disgusting things about human behavior and human corruption. It's tough. I mean, it's excruciating. Yeah, but knowing that it's also extremely humbling that this person trusted me so much to help them change their own life and to share their story. I mean, it's, it's, I think I'm one of the most humbling things to be a trauma therapist, I bet. Yeah. Wow. Profound. And that was my next question. Actually, some people I think, feel that healing isn't even possible that the hand they've been dealt in life is just what they have to deal with. They have to carry, carry on. They have to do the best they can that there's no way to really improve. It's just kind of get through survive and, and I get that, I get that feeling. But yeah, is it possible? I mean, you just said it is absolutely, it's not easy. It's possible. It is not easy for some, it will be easier than others. I think as long as you are seeing yourself as a victim and only a victim and you're putting yourself in that box or you're putting yourself in a box of just simply being a survivor when you make it too simple. But it's on the more negative side, you will struggle more significantly to improve or to get healthy again if you remove that and you allow yourself to see that. Yes, this happened to me. It does not define me. It is not happening again to me right now. And so I have today to make different choices and to make a different life for myself when you start that process. And you're open to it and you're willing to add a different adjective to your character or your identity that's not victim. And that's not simply Survivor. You open yourself to such a wide range of choices. And I think people, and it's scary. It's also, I mean, because in a sense you're shedding that, that old identity and that can be very scary for people to do because that's all you've known. That's all you in that sense of survival. That's all you've had to cling to, to just make it from day to day. But when we're willing and I'm not saying this is an overnight process or it's like a statement you make one minute and you're like at 12 o'clock, I'm no longer a survivor. 12 01. I'm moving forward with my life. This is something that happens over a year. Exactly. Exactly. Uh, there's no, there's no magic timeline and that, I think that is something that's most difficult for people to know that. And some people can do this on their own. I mean, I did not, I've been trained as a therapist. I did not go through therapy myself. And so in that sense, it took me many, many more years than it could have and I completely acknowledge that. But it was really my pride that was not willing to, I was not willing to humble myself. And so now that's what makes it so much more profound when people are willing to humble themselves to me because I'm like, wow, these people are superheroes like they are doing something that I was not even willing to do or that I could not bring myself to do. That's amazing. Yeah. So I think, I think healing is possible, moving forward is possible. It's extremely difficult work and it has to start with a decision to put 1 ft in front of the other and having a willingness to walk away from a past identity and find and forge a new one. Honestly, you have to forge a new one and realize that. I mean, I think you're a great person. I think you're a wonderful man and I would tell everyone. Oh, yeah, he's one of the best men I know. Like you guys really get to know Joey. Like he's so great. Like, but if I was to learn something about you at this point in time about your past that I didn't know it could be something that you did. That was terrible. It could be something that was terrible that happened to you. It could be something that was great. All I'm doing is learning new information about you. It doesn't change who you are, doesn't change what I think of you. I'm simply learning new information that I didn't have, but that goes into who you are today, but it's not you. It's something about you, but it's not you. And that's an extremely difficult thing to move forward from and, and, and I'm saying that from experience is that for a long time, I mean, I thought of myself as you know, I'm going to be in this box. I'm not, there's nothing I can do about it. And then I realized that I'm focusing on the wrong thing. Like, yes, this something happened to me, it was difficult, but there's so many other things in the world that I could do. I could choose, choose to go bowling to take bowling lessons and become a better bowler like something so simple, but it would help me improve myself and it would give me hope that I can get better. Like it doesn't have to start out with, with your emotional or psychological health. It could start off with something as simple as trying a new skill and just seeing yourself get better and seeing yourself dedicate that time. You're again, you're telling yourself that you're worth it. You're telling yourself that you can improve. You're telling yourself there is hope for something to get better and that you can take a pile of nothing or a pile of not so great things for not wanting to use other terms. But you're telling yourself that you, you can make yourself clean again, you can and if not, and if not clean again, you can tie dye yourself to be different and present. You know, you become renewed in that sense. And so in that sense, you are still cleaning for a bit. So, but it is tough. I won't lie. It is extremely difficult and it takes time and I think that's why most people don't do it. It's like those barriers that prevent them from doing it. But no, I've been through the therapy actually. And it is very helpful and I had worked through a lot of it on my own or with different therapists, not using that model. but going through it is very, very helpful. It opened my eyes to things that I never even saw that were there the whole time. And I was like, wow, that's like affecting me on a daily basis. But yeah, it's crazy how we kind of continue living out those stories even though they are years in the past. But like they feel in the moment like they're present, it's wild and so super, super helpful. I, I love how you mentioned like the whole victim mentality because that's something that's such a hot topic right now. And I think there's an important distinction that I just wanted to mention for everyone. There are like real victims. And I know you would agree with this victims of, you know, circumstances like they're in a situation and they're victimized and that's horrible and they deserve help. And there's a reason that they feel victimized. There's a reason that they are a victim and you know, you need to move through that and you need to grieve you need to do all that stuff, but you're not meant to remain a victim. And that's what I think is so toxic and so harmful in our culture right now. Is that so many people? I think all of us in one degree or another fall into this choose to remain victims. We choose to put ourselves in that box and then therefore we feel stuck, we can't heal, we can't grow or we feel we can't heal. We feel we can't grow and we're like unable to everything. We feel powerless. We maybe point at other people for our problems. And by definition, then if we're pointing at them for our problems, they must have the solution or so we think therefore, I can't do anything myself. And so one of the things I challenge the young people I mentor is OK, you might not have caused the problem, but you can take ownership of the solution and you can implement that in your life and you can grow beyond this. And so that whole idea of post traumatic growth is so real. And I've seen it like I'm preparing to talk right now on this topic and it's not fully ready. So I won't give you guys it. But there's insane stories of people. There's this one marine who um learned his story and he, I think Rob Jones is his name. If I'm getting that right. He fought in Afghanistan and Iraq and he was an expert at spotting roadside bombs, IE Ds and while he was sweeping for bombs at one point so his teams could like move through. Um he stepped on a bomb and it went off and he lost both his legs like he had to get him amputated above his knees. And for most people, like, you know, rightly so that is traumatizing. He is very much so a victim, but he just refused to remain a victim. And so what he did is he got into like the Paralympic Games and got like a bronze medal on the world stage. He was the first double amputee to ride across the country on a bike. He went through if I'm getting the numbers, right. He ran 31 marathons in 31 days in 31 different cities. Like it's profound. So I think people like that. It's incredible to look at and see, wow, maybe you don't need to go run 31 marathons without any legs. It's amazing. But certainly you can, you know, do other things that are going to help you to heal and to grow and to kind of push through that. So it's, it's amazing to see that, you know, we don't have to remain victims and maybe we were victims, but we don't have to remain victims. I would add one more thing to that. So when I also say victim, being a victim can be a state of fact, right? Maintaining a victim mentality is what is so harmful. If we think of Max Milling Colby, he was a victim. He certainly did not have a victim mentality. He maintained his ability to serve others and not despair. He could have chosen differently, but he didn't, but he was a victim. But he did not maintain the victim mentality. And the victim mentality is when you combine the two of them, that is what becomes so harmful. That makes sense. And the story we're talking about Max Mill and Kobe, the quick version is he was a Polish priest who was locked up in a Nazi concentration camp in Auschwitz. And one night, some prisoners escaped. And the Nazis being who they were chose to I think kill 10 men if I'm remembering the story right, randomly as a punishment for those men escaping. And there was one man uh French France, Francis guy, I think his name. And anyway, he had a family, he had a wife, he had Children and he was just like broke down crying that he was going to be killed. And so Maxim and Kobe, this priest who again, very much so a victim by circumstance, he actually stepped out of line, which in itself was just like incredibly brave thing to do because they could have just killed him on the spot. He stepped out of line to offer his life in exchange. And the Nazi officers were so shocked by this that they actually honored his wish they didn't kill the guy who they could have, they could have just said, oh, you want to die? Ok, great. We're gonna do 11 instead of 10. Um They actually allowed that other man to not be killed and he actually got out of the concentration camp years later and was able to reunite with his family on some level. And um and then Max Million was killed. And so it's a profound story of like going rising above that, you know, victim circumstance and escaping and overcoming the victim mentality. So it's a beautiful story as well. Patty, thank you so much for coming on the show. I want to do this. Yeah. And it's been a long time coming and I want to give you the final word. What words of encouragement would you give to someone who, who feels broken, who feels stuck in life because of everything they've been through, especially if their parents got divorced or there's slaughter dysfunction at home, what encouragement would you give them? And the task is not knowing what to say. It's annoying. Which one you know to go go to. I would say you, you are worth it. So the boundaries that you want to set up for yourself, your healthy boundaries with your parents, with your family, they are worth it and they do need to be protected. And in the sense that I say that I very early on told my parents that I was not to be a go between that I was not going to say, oh, tell them this or tell them they owe me this or bring them this paperwork. Shutting that down. You are worth that as difficult as it is to tell that to a parent, you are worth it and you will be better for doing it, not allowing your parent to or both of them could be one could be both to not talk negatively about the other one in your presence, whether it's directly to you or to one of their friends or to a stranger, putting your foot down for those things because you don't want that to happen. You are worth it. So those healthy, healthy boundaries for you to have put your foot down as strong as you can and, and voice, you don't even have to voice your concern. You just say no, you need to stop doing this because it's not OK. I will not allow it. You are worth it. So many great lessons from Patty's expertise in her story. And if you'd like to share your story with us, we'd love to hear it. There's three easy steps to do that. But first, some of the benefits of sharing your story, reflecting on your story is actually healing on a neural biological level. It makes your brain healthier and writing your story also is healing studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed, less anxious, healthier. And also it gives guidance and hope to people who are struggling too. So how do you do? It? Just go to restored ministry dot com slash story. There's a form on that page that guide you in telling a short version of your story and then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous blog article. And so go ahead and share your story now at restored ministry dot com slash story, as discussed in the interview, one tactic to heal is actually find someone who can guide you. That's where a counselor coach or spiritual director can come in. But often it's difficult and time consuming to find someone like that. Thankfully, at Restored, we're building a network of counselors and coaches and spiritual directors that we vet that we trust that we recommend. And by using our network, it's just going to save you a lot of time and effort in searching for a counselor coach or spiritual director. You also find a competent professional that we, again, we've vetted, we trust and recommend. And so how do you make use of that? Just go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching. Fill out the form. It should take about 60 seconds and then we'll contact you once we find a counselor coach or spiritual director, uh, that we recommend at the moment we're still building this list. Uh So if you want to jump on the waitlist, I invite you to go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching. But you might be listening to this at a later date and so it might be fully ready at that point again, go to restored ministry dot com slash coaching or just click on the link in the show notes that wraps up this episode. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents, divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them seriously, It takes about 30 seconds to just message them this episode or another episode that you think would be helpful for them. And in closing, always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and break the cycle of dysfunction and divorce in your own life. And keep in mind the words of CS Lewis who said you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.

#037: Trauma: What It Is and How It Damages You | Margaret Vasquez

What is trauma? How does it affect a person? Today, licensed trauma therapist Margaret Vasquez answers those questions and more:

• Why your parents' divorce, separation, or broken marriage can be so traumatic

• The antidote to trauma, which will surprise you

• How trauma therapy works, why it is so effective, and the incredible result she's seen

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More Than Words: The Freedom to Thrive after Trauma

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

A word that we use a lot these days and we use it a lot on this show too, is the word trauma, but what exactly is trauma and how does it affect us today? We dive into those questions and we give you guys answers. We speak with a, a trauma therapist, a counselor specializes in helping people. Who've been through something traumatic in their lives to heal so they can feel whole again.

And by listening to this episode, you're gonna get a bunch out of it. We're gonna talk about why is your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage? So traumatic. My guest shares the antidote to trauma. Something that she's discovered through years and years of counseling. And I think it'd be surprised by the answer.

She also shares her story, her personal story. This isn't just someone who read this stuff in books and learned it, but she's been through a lot herself. She came from an extremely dysfunctional family. She ran away from home and. 17. She was misdiagnosed with bipolar hospitalized twice. She says she was taking basically every medication that you can imagine.

She was super depressed. She couldn't keep a job. And she was actually on the brink of suicide. And as the last stitch effort, she went through trauma therapy after her counselor recommended it and something amazing happened immediately. Her life started to change. She no longer felt depressed. No longer felt anxious, suicidal, hopeless anymore.

And now she helps a ton of people every year through, uh, an improved version of the model that she went through. And so, again, this is just someone who learned this stuff in a book and has helped people, which there's value to that. No doubt, but she's been through it herself. And so she talks about how trauma therapy works, why it's so effective and some incredible results that she's seen in her own practice.

And so if you or someone, you know, feels broken, who's been through something traumatic in their life. This episode is gonna help you so much. Not only is it gonna give you hope, but it'll also give you some really practical things that you can do some really helpful information so that you can heal and move on with your.

You do not wanna miss this episode, keep listening

what to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce or separation. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 37. And before we dive in, I just wanna give a quick shout out to those of you who have left us a review on apple podcast.

Thank you so much for doing that. Sheele left a five star review and said, I've always said that I'm okay. That what happened couldn't have changed who I was. Of course it changed me. I still run away from many topics related to divorce, but listening to this podcast, isn't like hearing a bunch of psychologists.

Tell me all the ways that I'm really. Okay. It's so much more helpful to hear this is not okay. And it never will be okay, but I can be. I love that. Thank you so much slowly for, for that review. And I wanted to ask you, would you leave us a review as well? Some of the benefits for us is that it really helps us to know how we're doing to serve you guys.

How, how the content we're producing is helping you or maybe not helping you. It also gives us some more visibility in apple podcast so we can reach more people. We can help more people. And it's actually really easy to leave a review in the apple podcast app. If you click on our show, the official name of the show is stored helping children of divorce.

Just click on our show, scroll down to ratings and reviews that under that section, there's two ways to leave a review. You can tap to review. That means just clicking on the stars and that's helpful. But the thing that's most helpful is if you click write a review that's just below and that gives us more insight into your experience with the show and it doesn't need to be long.

It can be 60 to 90 seconds of your time. And if you need a question to help you prompt your review, answer this question, how has this show helped? We really appreciate the time you take to leave a review and we take those super seriously. So thank you guys for leaving reviews. My guest today is Margaret Vasquez.

Margaret is a licensed professional clinical counselor. She developed the N I method that stands for neuro reformatting and integration of trauma therapy as an adaptation of the ITR model. And that stands for instinctual trauma response model. We're gonna talk about all this in the show, uh, but with a focus on connection as an essential ingredient to attachment health wellness and post-treatment growth, Margaret has treated clients of all ages and backgrounds for over 12 years, considering an expert in the field of trauma therapy in this method of treatment, she has appeared on numerous television radio shows and has been cited in numerous books.

And she also has extensive experience presenting to non-clinical and clinical groups. I'm so excited for you to, to hear from Margaret to learn from here. So here's my fascinating conversation with Margaret Vasques.

Margaret, welcome to the show. I really appreciate you making time for this. Thanks, Joey. I appreciate you inviting me. I wanna start with a, a really basic question. What is trauma? What's the definition of trauma? The simplest definition of trauma that I like to use is any event that overwhelms a person's normal ability to cope.

And so kind of, you can kind of imagine, like, in that definition itself kind of contains the idea that that varies from person to person, right? Because what overwhelms one person might not overwhelm another and that kind of thing. So it's a real, it's real particular to the person. So I kind of like that, that like, understanding that because.

If we understand that, then we don't compare and go, oh, well, this didn't bother that person, but it really bothers me. And so what's wrong with me, you know? So it, it really all has to do with our perspective in the situation and our perception of it, and really our personal experience of it as to if we're traumatized by.

By an event or not. Okay. No, that makes so much sense. So if you would, what's an example, I guess, of a traumatic event that you typically see. I know, based on what you said, it varies for people, but what's something that's kind of a typical traumatic event. And I know some people talk about trauma in terms of like a big tea trauma versus a little tea trauma.

What would some examples be to help people listening right now who may not have a handle on that? Yeah, sure. Um, so one of, so kinda some of the obvious ones would be, um, abusive, any kind. You know, physical, emotional, spiritual, sexual, verbal, natural disaster or accidents can be traumatic as well. It it's so funny because so often people say, well, couldn't have been worse.

You know what? I went through, like, couldn't have been worse and I'll say, well, it could always have been worse or we wouldn't be having this meeting. Right. Mm-hmm cause we're still alive. You know? So I think it's, I think it's more, it makes more sense to compare it to what we're made for. Instead of couldn have been worse because if something bothered us, that's enough reason.

You know, if it was traumatizing to us, if it overwhelmed my, my year, whoever's personal ability to cope, then that, and of itself is reason enough for it to be trauma. I often say like in trainings, I call it trauma. When I'm with my brothers, we call it childhood. You know, so, and I guess it's just kind of make that distinction because people can tend to, to minimize and kind of beat themselves up for, for things bothering them.

Right. And kind of say, I should have been more thick skinned or tougher, or I'm being wimpy or self pity or, you know, or whatever that these things are getting to me. And it's really not. A matter of that. So some of the things that people typically think of as trauma are like combat or violent crimes, but it, it can really run the gamut.

One of the biggest ones that I work with with people is biggest meaning one of the ones that that's the most affect most affects people is bullying. And, and that's really sad cuz that's something that's kinda rampant today. Definitely. Wow. And it's um, I, I think you were a spot on in saying that a lot of people think of trauma as just this huge event in my life.

Like you said, a big natural disaster, something very dramatic that happened like going to war, you know, something like that, but it's a great point that it can be something that maybe is less dramatic. It can be something that, uh, a lot of people may write off as not being very important or being something that they should be able to have a handle on.

Yeah. Well, you know, I kind of, I kind of got scolded in this back in early days of practice and I was working with a young veteran and. He had been through a lot of verbal abuse from his father. And he said to me worse for him than hand to hand combat was verbal abuse from, from his dad when he was a little boy and kind of intuitively like just in my gut, that made sense to me.

But I just, you know, I just asked him this to say more about that. And he said, well, when I, when I went in the army, they gave me a gun and said, people are gonna be shooting at you. Go defend yourself. That wasn't how it was when I was seven years old, little boy sitting at the breakfast table, eating my breakfast, you know, and my person who was supposed to be protecting me was just verbally decimating me, you know?

And while that kind of really put it in perspective, you know, absolutely. Like in one case he was totally unprepared. And then in the other case, he had training, he had somewhat of an expectation of what he would be going into, but that wasn't the case in his childhood. Yeah. And I, and I think also kind of going along with that is the person that he expected protection from was instead the assailant.

Right. Whereas like over in, I don't even remember what, what country he was fighting in Afghanistan or Iraq or where it was, but he didn't ex he didn't have an expectation of safety. He certainly didn't have an expectation of protection from the enemy. Right. Instead like the person who was sadly. Playing the part of the enemy was the person he should have had, you know, he had a right to have expectation of safety and, and even protection from mm.

Yeah, absolutely. That, that makes so much sense when it comes to a person experiencing trauma. How does it affect a person again? I know you said it, it varies per person, but what are some common themes that, that you've. It's one of those things that just can really run the gamut. So I'll get in. I can get into more of explaining my answer to this, but, but it affects us physically, always.

And that has to do with how the brain encodes trauma, like the biological response that happens in the brain when trauma happens. So first and foremost, it affects us physically like it in a way that we can't even see, you know, that just in terms of how it becomes encoded in our, in our brain. Um, but cause of that, cause of how it becomes encoded.

Can emotionally continue to be experienced, like it's still going on. So you can take any of the painful, negative emotions from a traumatic experience. And, and those can continue like on a, you know, hourly, daily, weekly month in and month out, that kind of thing continue to be experienced. Like it's still happening.

So, you know, for example, fear, anxiety or anger, sense of helplessness or hopelessness. Those think things can continue to be experienced like way down the road, you know, for, for years and years, because also because of how it becomes encoded in the brain, it can affect us cognitively. So our ability to, to problem solve can be compromised.

It can make it really difficult to articulate things, but be able to put words on things, to express how we're feeling, which can then leave us. More isolated from other people because we really feel like we can have, have a hard time communicating and help getting other people to understand kind of where we're coming from or how we're feeling.

It can also affect just kind of simple things as far as like the ability to prioritize or be organized, can affect reading. Comprehension can affect our ability to do math, can also make it where memory is really hard. Just the ability to remember things, short term memory, that kind of thing. And it can also affect us spiritually just having to do with that sense of like powerlessness and helplessness and kind of that sense of like, if we're we're in that mode where we, we feel isolated and alone and like kind of like we're on our own, right.

Mm-hmm so we're kind of like abandoned and rejected can kind of project that onto, onto God as well. And so, and it can end up affecting us relationally because all these things can leave a person really feeling like. They're broken and flawed. And so then because of that can leave people tending to kind of isolate or tending, to feel like really kind of desperate and needy.

And so relying that much more on, on other people. And I can, if we, if we stay stuck kind of feeling like very angry, then obviously that can kind of come out and really unfortunate ways in, in relationships also, you know, kind of left feeling abandoned or rejected. You can. Tend to project that onto other people where it's not really objectively the case, but the kind of the messages that we took on and the traumas can become like these lenses that we then like, tend to look at the world and other people through.

So it can really, really complicate situations relationally. Yeah. No, that makes so much sense. So thinking through, you know, the people that we work with, uh, and have restored, you know, people who come from broken homes or parents are separated or divorced, uh, it reminds me of someone who, who mentioned that they, uh, felt like they were almost in competition with, or had to defend against their spouse.

And, uh, based on what you just said, how trauma can leave your brain, experiencing the trauma again, and again, as if there's no time limit on it, it's like an infinite mm-hmm , I, it almost made me think of that. And I've experienced this too in my own marriage where, you know, I, I kind of react to things in not a logical way.

It's like, I'm not using the front part of the brain, the, um, smart part of me. And it just seems like I'm reliving, maybe something that happened in the past where, you know, I, I found out that my parents were separating and that was certainly traumatic for me personally. And, uh, anyway, I could see how, uh, people who come from broken homes maybe could project, like you said, some of the brokenness of their parents onto their future spouse.

Yeah, absolutely. Because if we, you know, in our mind, if our takeaway is like, okay, I'm not gonna let anybody treat me. This again, because that feels really bad and really painful. And so then anything that, that we could perceive from our fear, right. Instead of from, from like real clarity and sense of truth, but more of kind of that nature reaction and going like, oh no, this is that right.

And so it kind of itchy trigger finger, that sort of thing. So, and that's actually for a. Biological reason because the, the limbic system, which is the emotional center of the brain takes less than 20 milliseconds to respond to a stimuli. So something that's a reminder of, you know, whatever painful thing takes less than 20 milliseconds to respond.

But the smart part of our brain, like you're talking about takes more than 500 milliseconds to respond, right? So that, that knee jerk reaction sadly goes off like 25 times faster than the smart part of our brain's able to, you know, kind of show up to the task and try to make sense of it. Wow. No, that is fascinating.

And it makes sense why? I mean, it makes sense why it is that way. Cuz in survival situations, we, we really want that, that part of our. The survival part of our brain to be that quick to react. But it is unfortunate when that's like constantly on, in, you know, our relationships and everyday life when it really doesn't need to be.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Kind of leaves us like wired for, for war, but war's not a really good thing to be wired for when you're in a marriage. Right. Or in a family or, you know, or with friends, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. No, that makes sense. Huh? It's this just a side note I thought of, um, I know, uh, a lot of special operators, like Navy seals and guys like that.

They have a really hard time with their marriages and there's some practical, logistical things like that. Cause they're away from home a lot. Um, and you know, I'm sure there's more factors involved, but I wonder if that's part of. My understanding is that police officers do too, for the same reason, kind of that it's almost like it can leave.

You feel having that really isolated feeling like there's an experience of reality that I have that is so far from anything that, that anybody else can even imagine. And so it just leaves you really kind of isolated. And then when you have that kinda knee jerk reaction going off to, to things and, you know, intensified fear and that, you know, can obviously come out.

In a lot of different ways, anger, anxiety, or things that complicates relationships and certainly think it was complicated. Marriage. Yeah. Fascinating. Wow. Now on the opposite side, so, you know, we've heard kind of how, um, trauma can affect people negatively. Is it possible to, to handle trauma properly? I don't know if properly is the right word, cuz a lot of times, you know, it's not something that we control.

But, um, but is there a way to handle trauma? Well, one of the, the main things is part of what makes a trauma, a trauma is how it gets taken care of. And, uh, I'll give you an example that a supervisor gave me years ago when I was, when I was just an intern. And he said, he, he said that to me, he said that very thing, you know, part of what makes a trauma, a trauma is how it gets taken care of.

And I said, you know, what do you mean by that? And he said, well, he had grown up in Pittsburgh. And so one particular, he pick particular day, he was, he was just a little boy. And he was out with a bunch of friends and they were playing a game of pickup football in a empty corner lot. And he got tackled onto a piece of a jagged pipe.

That seems like it was probably about a sticking up outta the ground, maybe for about a foot, you know? And it was jagged and broken off. Yeah. And he was tackled onto it and it kind of cut his calf and it was just, he was really bleeding and, and he went home and. His mom was kind of freaking out. like, she couldn't couldn't handle the, the blood and kind of everything.

Right. So she's kind of losing it. And so, but his grandfather lived a couple of doors down and so she took him over to his grandfather and his grandfather was just like really calm and really patient and really loving and just got him like all cleaned up and bandaged up and, and took him for ice cream.

And so he says, instead of remembering that event as a traumatic event, he remembers it as a time where he felt like he really got taken care of. And I thought that was like, that was so interesting. You know, it's something that that's kind of become, uh, a really big part of my practice and how I've started seeing trauma.

It's something that something you and I haven't talked about, but it's in, it's been in the last couple of years, I had started noticing this pattern in my practice that it didn't matter the age of the person, the, you know, if they're male or female, you know, if they were super smart or if they were just kind of more simple, like anywhere, you know, any factor you can change up.

Right. And I started noticing that consistent thing was that if somebody brought up something to me, that was just this really, really beautiful experience, which you can imagine doesn't happen a lot when people come to talk about trauma. Right? Sure. But if they were bringing something like that up, it always had to do with a profound sense of connection to either themself or another person or God.

always. And so once I started noticing this, Jo was kind of like, I was kind of geeking out on this. Right. Like I was like, oh, this is fascinating. Like connection is like the antithesis of trauma. Right. It's like the exact opposite. So it's, it's the antidote and which kind of makes sense. Right. It's what we're made for.

Right. Sure. And wow. So then I was kind of like, that was fascinating. It was super cool. Then I started thinking, you know, after a couple of weeks of having this like nugget of revelation and I started thinking. Well, gee what's what's connection comprised of like, that's just kind of this fluffy term, like what's, what's it made of.

And so then started noticing this pattern that it always had to do with our boundaries being respected and which gives us that kind of like fundamental sense of safety. Right. I think, and safety and respect. Right? So there's a place where, where I stop and you start, and I don't, I, I have to have respect for that space, you know, I don't get to just come trudging into, to your space physically, emotionally and spiritually because we're body mind.

Absolutely. Um, so that was one thing boundaries. Right? And then the second thing was value. So it always had to do with the person being treated like they had inherent value. Like they didn't have to earn their value. They just had, they had dignity because they were a human being. That's it and, and didn't have to earn it.

It wasn't based on looks or performance or status or money or, or anything like that. Right. And then the third thing was having that sense of feeling known. So, which I kind of come to, um, to kind of like define as like being seen and heard as an individual. Who's very good. Like very good kind of going back to like Genesis and the Bible.

Right. And then the fourth thing was openness. Cause we kinda, we have to be, have some degree of openness in order to experience those things, another person, right. Even tiny bits of openness. But then the thing I started noticing was that the openness is really a byproduct. Of those four things or those three things, right.

If somebody respects my boundaries and treats me as though I already have value, it's not like I have to earn my value from them and takes the time to really like, see and hear me, then we kind of naturally open, right. Cause we're like we're made for connection. And those three, three things like send us like this really big, you know, message of you're safe in every way, you know?

And so I think those things, like if there's a way to say survive trauma, well, like I would say, you know, kind of like recover from it naturally. Like if you know, something just happened to someone, it it's kind of, you know, showing up with. Those three things and helping that person not feel isolated and not feel like they have to earn their value, or if they have to protect themselves or feel isolated and that kind of thing.

Wow, this is so fascinating. So many different levels to, to everyone listening, who maybe you don't come from a broken home, but you love, or you lead someone who does, this is a great takeaway for you too. And it reminds me of just the fact Margaret that when someone goes through something traumatic, like the worst thing that we can do is just try to get 'em to cheer up.

I know a lot of people, well, intentioned people say, well, look on the bright side or a typical one. When it comes to us going through your parents' divorce, it's like, well, we now, you know, you have twice as many presents, twice as many birthdays Christmases, you get two houses, like trying to get people to see the bright side.

But, um, this shows me that , you know, that model that you just laid out, that the need for connection being the antidote to trauma, that that really proves that that is so unhelpful. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. And of course, like you're saying, you know, of course it's, it's from the best of intentions. Right. And, and I think it's because we, especially, we as helpers, right.

We have a little bit double dose of wanting to help people feel better. But instead of focusing on controlling the other person's emotions, which honestly is a boundary violation. Right. so instead of that, focusing on connection, I think that's like when we, when we go there, we stay on definitely on safe ground.

I I'll tell you a simple story of if we can tolerate another story. No, please. Okay. So a few years ago, One of my nephews. He was three years old and I'm from coastal Georgia. So I was, I was down in Georgia and was visiting family. I was staying with my brother and we had gone over to some relatives of his wife.

So my sister-in-law's grand great-grandmother. And so the little boys, my nephews were three and a year and a half, and they were, they were playing with this ball. They were throwing it back and forth and it went over this little kind of patio fence thing. And so Bryce came running inside and running across the room and ran out.

She was, she lived in an apartment, ran out and the apartment and down the car corridor to go get his ball back and. So he just hear, you know, these footsteps, like, and like little body, like floating on. And then he like goes along in front of the fence and like passed her apartment to now he was in front of the apartment next to her.

And all of a sudden you hear these little dogs, like, and so then all of a sudden he's crying and he's just like tearing back into the apartment, you know, mm-hmm and I thought, oh, like, he, he wasn't expecting to be met with these dogs. And even though they were little, he was little too. Right? Sure. It was pretty overwhelming.

So I met him at the door and picked him up as soon as, you know, he comes to the door and. He was crying and everything. And what naturally came to my mind to say was that must have been really scary because I was thinking about it from, from his perspective, you know? So I was like, that must have been really scary.

You weren't expecting to hear dogs, were you? And he's like, no, you know, and he's, he's crying and he's wiping his eyes and stuff. And so I'm gonna hold you up, appear really high so that we can go back out and get your ball, but you'll be up high. So you'll be. From the dogs. Right. And so we go outside and you know, I'm making up this little story to him and I'm saying, oh, this cause the dogs are not barking.

And it's like, oh, these dogs are saying, Hey, little boy, your balls over here, you know, I'm just being silly. And then, and he's like, oh, that's so nice. You know? So now he's VI his, and, and he, he feels safe though. I'm like, you know, oh, look, they're behind their little fence. And so now he wiggles down. Right?

Cause he, he wants to go get his ball. He knows he's safe. And because the dogs are, are away from him, I can't catch him. So he goes and he gets his ball and, and you know, there's, everybody's, everybody's happy, that kind of thing. But somebody had said to me later when I had, I had written about that story and the book that I had put out back in 2017, somebody said that to like, that was so interesting that you said to him, that must have been really scary.

He said, I, I think the natural thing to say would be, you don't have to be scared. Mm. And I was like really struck by that, cuz I thought, I think back in my experiences I guess that is something that people would've tended to say to me, but, but it just made so much sense to say that must have been really scary because clearly he was scared.

And if I say you don't have to be scared. I think what we tend to think in our minds is like, well, you don't understand, you know, because clearly if I am scared, there's something I'm scared about, you know, that kinda thing. So I didn't want him to feel isolated or him to feel understood. I, I wanted to meet him where he was instead of trying to get him to meet me where I was.

Once he felt like I met him where he was with that must have been really scary. Then I could bring him into, you know, the things, these things that were going was gonna do so that he didn't have to be scared and we could go and face it together. Does that make sense? Yeah. No, I love it. Empathy. That's all about empathy, basical, and then yeah, for sure.

Connected with him. Which helped him overcome his fear, which helped him kind of deal with that dangerous situation that he was facing. That's wow. That, no, that, that's incredible. It's a great illustration of kind of how that works when you truly help someone to process and go through something difficult.

Yeah. And just kinda like take, like looking at taking their perspective first, instead of getting them to take your perspective. Cause I think that we can kind of, we can tend to do that, you know, uh, and again, with the festive intentions, you know totally. Yeah. And I wanna transition into talking about, um, going through your parents' divorce, like when someone goes through their parents' divorce, their parents' separation, or maybe just a really broken marriage, uh, something you said before, how, you know, to, to properly survive trauma, um, means it, we, we need to get taken care of basically.

And so mm-hmm um, it, it had struck me because what we've seen reading the research and hearing all the stories that we've been hearing for years is that so often these young people who come from broken families or not so young. That they aren't taken care of. And again, not not saying parents are like want wanting to damage their kids.

I've never met a parent who wanted to hurt their kids by getting divorced. Never. But I think so often the kids get neglected and that is damaging. They don't have that connection. Like you mentioned, they don't feel that they're taken care of. And so I think maybe that's part of the reason it's so damaging.

So I wanna give you a chance to talk about that. Why, why would you say, uh, from your point of view, your expertise is your parents' divorce or separation, so, so traumatic for so many people. Yeah, I think there's, I think there's so many, so many reasons to that. Like, first of all, I think, cause we're, we're part of mom and part of dad to see that rift between the two of them really feels like a rift within us.

Right? Like even on a, on a very like natural physiological kind of level, you can feel like we're being torn apart. So I think it, it makes a lot of sense just on a really like. Basic like fundamental level. And you know, a lot of times there's even like, I look more like this person. So if you're rejecting this person, what does that say about me?

Maybe I have more features of that person. And if that, you know, he's rejecting this about her, then what does that say about me? And 11 times, I don't think we even necessarily articulate this stuff, but I think it's, you know, I think it ends up playing into the what's, you know, can be going on underneath.

Also, I think one of the things that makes situations so particularly damaging or impacting I would, would be a good word is when. The more helpless we feel in a situation and who, when it comes to something like separation and divorce, broken marriage, the typical, you know, the typical responses in trauma is we say it's fight flight or freeze.

And, and there is no way to fight it, right? Like because we're not even part of the, the breakup really, you know, we're not, we're not the mother, we're not the father. Right. We're not the husband, we're not the wife. So, so they're breaking up from each other and there's no way we can, we can fight that. No way we can, nothing we can do to stop it.

There's no way we can flee it either. Right. There's we can try to avoid and escape kind of from the idea of it or thinking about it, but it doesn't doesn't change the facts of the situation. So I think what most people end up doing is freezing, which is kind of that deer in the headlights kind of mode, where we feel that particular sense of.

Helplessness. There's nothing I can do to fight it. Nothing I can do to flee it. I can't change the situation. And so we, we just kind of brace for impact, you know, kind of, so to speak, if you're thinking about it, like what we would do in a car accident, when there's no way we can swerve to avoid the, you know, the car coming at us or something, things that are handled in that way, they tend to be particularly like leaving a lot of like depressive kind of symptoms.

When, when things are the free state is, as the trauma continues to be experienced, like it's still going on that free state particularly tends to be experienced down the road as depression. So I think, um, I think those are some of, some of the reasons also think particularly cause connection is like, you know, like I said before, what we're wired for and that's kind of the most fundamental connection that we're supposed to have, the way the.

Human family has been designed is there's for a person to come into the world and it needs to be a, a mother and a father and to, to bring this little life in. And so when there's a fraction in that connection, it goes against everything that we're made for, you know? Yeah. So seeing that, like that connection, that, that relationship that's supposed to really teaches about connection when that one, that, that one is like so crucial to the destructiveness.

Absolutely. Um, I also think there's something like, I think there's something to, it's not just like the person, you know, the, the person who's the child in the, um, in the family. It's not just like, they're not get getting taken care of. Sadly. I mean, that would be bad enough, of course, but sadly, a lot of times what I see is they're actually relied upon to take care of the parents or one of the parent and that.

That's kind of backwards, right? That's totally backwards from, from how it's supposed to be. And it's an, it's an awful lot of responsibility and none of the power, there's a story of, um, a boy where he was, uh, just, I think, 13, 14 years old. And, uh, his mom left, his mom just stopped and left, but his dad was just so debilitated by the mom leaving.

And so that child dropped outta school. He started doing everything the mom would do like cooking and cleaning and taking care of everything around the house. Wow. And so he literally, as, as a boy, he stepped into this parent role, not just taking care of the house mm-hmm but also being emotionally there for his dad.

Mm-hmm and we see this all, all the time, Margaret, like in the young people, we were it's yeah. They're filling roles. They were never meant to fill sometime often out of necessity. And, uh, man, it's, it's so sad and it is damaging. It may not. Look like that, you know, right away. But, uh, but down the road, it can be very damaging, especially in your relationship with that parent, which of course we all want good relationships with our parents and it can be really harmful down the road we've learned.

Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. I, I totally agree with that. And it has, I can tell you from, you know, working with adults cuz I, you know, my, my, the people, I treat's a mix of, of kids and adult and. and in working with adults, it has long lasting ramifications. You know, it's not something that once they're outta that situation, it's over.

And I think if you put it in terms of connection, a lot of times, the, the message they've taken away is, is that that's how they have to earn their value. And because they don't feel valued until they step into that role, because they, that they can see like really quickly, like, oh, if I do this, I help dad feel better or I help mom feel better.

And so then they, you know, maybe perhaps like, because of their own pain and depression, whichever parent or parents, aren't really engaging with them, you know, and their. Uh, kind of more kind of withdrawn or, or whatever the case might be. Right. And so mm-hmm but the kid takes away the message. Oh, if I do this, they like me.

If I do this, they appreciate me more if I do this. And so, so it's a real, yeah, it's a real detrimental message for a person to take on that. They have to earn their value, particularly by, by doing something that's like such a roll reversal. Right? No, that makes so much sense. And there's so much to say on that topic alone.

I, I just wanted to mention though that for sure, for, for any parents listening, who may be like freaking out right now, um, there, you, you play such a crucial role in helping your kids handle that the trauma handle that the messy situation, there is some research that we've seen that says basically if that child has a good relationship, a healthy relationship with one or both parents, they're much less likely to experience loneliness, to experience depression, to experience anxiety.

And so parents listening right now, uh, you play a huge role. We often hear how things go wrong. And, and there is a lot of that when people come from a broken family, no doubt. Um, but you can play a crucial role in helping in helping your children heal. So lot, lot more on that than, I guess we could talk about it in this conversation, but would you, um, add anything to kind of, why is divorce.

Separation so unique. Is there anything that makes it different than other types of trauma aside from the things you've already mentioned? No. I think just kind of looking back at, you know, again, to reiterate looking at the, at the family unit and that's like supposed to be our first school of, of connection really.

Right. And it really ends up teaching us how to even connect to ourself and how to connect to God and how to connect to others. And so it it's because it's like that, that primary place where we would get those lessons. Absolutely. And the research we've seen and mark, you've probably seen the same stuff, says that the, the biggest area of our lives that we are impacted by our parents' divorce is our own relationship, specifically our romantic relationships.

And we talk about that a lot in the show. Yeah. But it makes so much sense based on everything you just. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Mark. You didn't just learn this stuff in a book. That's one of the things that I think is so impressive about you, you've been through a lot in your own life years ago, you were on the brink of suicide.

If you're willing to talk about that a little bit, what happened? What's your story? I grew up in a very dysfunctional family. My parents did not divorce or separate, but it was at least physically right. So I, I do think there are people who fall into that category. Right? Absolutely. So there's this, like, there's this incredible disconnect and rift and, and that kind of thing.

So you you're experienced disconnection on day in and day out, but, but without the official divorce or separation. So there was a lot of, lot of dysfunction on pretty much every level. And so ended up running away from home when I was 17, um, came to thankfully came to Franciscan university, right outta high school.

And it was, it was a great place. To come cause it was probably one of the safest places I could have come. And it was, yeah, it, I didn't know I was gonna come here until two weeks before school started when I was a freshman, I just kinda, I needed to figure something out and go somewhere. So I applied and was accepted financial aid, worked through, you know, worked out and I was on a plane heading to Ohio.

And, um, nobody warned me about how cold it is in Ohio. Cause it was not cold in south Georgia but ended up but ended up up here and like really thankfully. So, but that wasn't really the end of the story, you know, that was just kind of the beginning. There was a lot of just kind of trying to sort out what in the, what in the world and, and all, you know, what in the word I had been through and still all the while living out of my own trauma, which just led to more drama and more trauma.

And so it wasn't until I was finally at, uh, by the time I was 33 years old, I had been in counseling for 16 years. I had been. Misdiagnosed bipolar. I had been hospitalized twice on like every medication under the sun and everybody was just kind of stumped what to do with me. And I was really, really under functioning and I knew I couldn't hold down a job because I was so morbidly depressed.

And so I thought, okay, well, school was always easy for me. So I'll, I'll get a master's degree cause that'll help me buy some time to try to figure me out. Cause clearly I was, I was stumping the professionals and um, of the master's programs that Franciscan had at the time master's in counseling program is what interested me for the obvious reason of trying to figure myself out.

Right. Mm-hmm and so, but it, I, so I went into the master's in counseling program, never with the intention of becoming a therapist. Never. That was not my intention. I was just trying to buy time and halfway through the master's in counseling program. I. Really coming apart at the seams and the therapist, I was seeing recommended that I go through the method of treatment that then kind of changed over all of these years into the way I practiced it, but went through it and it was night and day different.

It was intensive outpatient trauma treatment. And I went from, you know, the past, the 18 months prior to going through it, I had been. Imminently suicidal, just like every day and night, all day and night, my thoughts would just kind of always go to, to suicide and, and as sad and as disturbing as it sounds, that was actually kind of, my, my most hopeful thought was suicide because it kind of felt like my parachute, you know, because I had no hope for, for ever feeling anything else, because I had felt that way for, from really from the time I was 17, just so, so, so depressed and so intensely anxious and thought in good conscience.

I can't become a therapist because I don't believe it worked and went down. I went through this method of treatment, the clinic's closed now, but it went through it back then. And it was just day of night difference after intensive treatment. And so I, that kinda, that sold me on it. And it wasn't, it wasn't really the, the end, you know, it was like this silver bullet kind of thing, but it definitely, I, I didn't feel depressed anymore.

Didn't feel suicidal anymore. Didn't feel anxious anymore. And I definitely had the. The tools and the insight I needed to really begin to connect to me and then to connect to, to others, more healthily and to grow in my relationship with, with the Lord was connecting to him. So it was kind of this, it was just like an enormous portion of, of my own journey.

Also, honestly, there was a lot physiological that, that I ended up getting help with from chiropractor nutritionist in the area here, who we both know Dr. Mara, and the reason being that trauma actually takes a toll on your body and stress happens somewhere. Right? And it happens in these, these things we live in, right.

That's where the anxiety takes place when the depression takes place. And it really takes its own its wear and tear honest physiologically. So that was a big component of my healing as well. Wow. Besides my, besides my faith journey. Cause so I kind of had this like emotional, physical, and very and spiritual like aspects of the healing kind of, and I've always.

Really kind of emphasize that with clients, like you really have to go at it body, mind and spirit because that's how we're made. Yeah. You can't compartmentalize. We have to treat the person. No, you really can't. Yeah, for sure. I love that. Wow. What incredible story. And now you're helping other people who, you know, are going through trauma.

Who've been through trauma who are trying to, to process it, deal with it. Uh, tell, tell us a little about the, the therapy that you practiced, the model that you practiced and why, why is it so effective? So I, so, like I said, the model as I went through it, if. Changed. I added it up at one point, probably about 14 or 15 things over the years, trying to make it more, more efficient and more effective.

And mm-hmm and kind of more holistic. And so, so the, as I practice it, I refer to it as NRI, which stands for neuro reformatting and integration. So the neuro part is actually moving, moving. We try where files are stored in the brain. Or if you look at it kinda like reformatting those files, this is the way that they've become encoded instead of being experienced, like they're still going on.

Once we've processed them, they're actually able to be experienced like they're in the past. Which is really that's, that's the most effective part of the whole thing, because then it actually enables the person to be able to feel like a whole person instead of feeling like, okay, well there's part of me, that's carrying these terrible things I went through when I was four.

And these things that I went through when I was 12 and these things that I would turn on 15, you know, whatever ages like these particularly traumatic events happened. Because they continue to be experienced. Like they're still going on. They can really kind of leave us feeling diced up into all these different kind of ages that we were when the things happened.

But once the events are experienced, like they're in the past, then there's able to be like integration within the person. So we feel whole, instead of that sense of, of kind of this brokenness, you know, and, and I think, I think a lot of people who've been, been through trauma can kind of relate to that, you know, kind of feeling.

Like they're a little kid in an adult body and being expected to engage with an adult world, you know, and they're expected to act like adults and they, they don't even feel like an adult, even though they're in their mid thirties, you know, or, or mid twenties, you know, or whatever the case might be.

That's why it's so effective is because, and that's also why it can be done in intensive format. So in a week you can get the, all of these things addressed. You don't need a week or two weeks in between hourly sessions to kind of mull over what was talked about in the last session. And that kind of thing.

I, I always say, if it's easier for you to look at the kind of treatment I do as physical therapy for the brings, then that really kind of makes sense. Right? So, because I'll give you like a good example of like how physiological this is, this is kinda, this is kinda crazy. But during those two weeks that I went through, um, through trauma treatment, my hair turned to tiny little curls.

And stayed like that for the next year and a half. And wow. Um, which is one of the things that kept, you know, the, the body, mind spirit kind of approach, like literally in my face, right? Like anytime I look in the mirror, it was literally in my face and I was talking to my doctor about it and saying like, isn't that crazy?

And he said, well, it makes sense because when you're moving, where things are stored in the brain, it shifts up hormones. And a lot of times, you know, hormones have to do with will effect if a person's hair is curly or straight, like, example, for example, like when women get pregnant or have babies, you know, a lot of times their hair, if they have curl, they'll lose curl, or, um, if they don't have curly hair, they might get curly hair.

So yes, it's kinda it's that biological, you know, kind of shift that makes it so effective. It's, it's not, it's not just trying to get the person to think about it in a think about whatever the traumatic events were in a different light for like a short period of time that then they wouldn't be able to sustain.

You're actually kind of like. Changing how it's stored in the brain. Wow, incredible. It's like you're doing, you're reorganizing their brain, so to speak. Yeah. Which causes the, you know, the symptoms they talked about before it causes those things to go away, you know? So the limbic system's able to calm down.

So the neocortex is able to do, um, in the prefrontal cortex, more of what it's meant to do. So this kind of stuff we call executive functioning. So prioritizing and being organized and, and problem solving. You know, if I do this, wait, that's gonna happen. So I wanna make this choice instead, you know, making better choices, the person's able to from a calmer place and approach things.

More peace and clarity. Wow. Incredible. And Margaret, I wanted to ask you, so when someone comes to work with you, they're, you know, coming to your, um, clinic for a week, uh, what does that week look like? What's the agenda? Like what sort of, uh, exercises do they go through? Like, could you demystify that a little bit?

Like what process do you follow in leading people through this therapy? Sure. So the first part, even before they come to know if they're appropriate for this method of treatment is kind of, uh, a set amount of form and call the history and goals, questionnaire. And so I, I get their history, so I know if they're appropriate for treatment and, and to know if the goals.

That they're looking to attain. If, you know, if you, if they make sense given this treatment, if this is a good fit for that. And then if it is when they come for that week, they stay in the local area. It's outpatient treatment. So they just come for sessions from in the morning and in the, and or in the afternoon, depending on what their schedule is, what they're set up with, what kind of their need is.

And then on Monday kind of do an intake that gives us a lot bigger picture of, um, kind of that context of their life, because we've gotten the real specific information on that history and goals, questionnaire. And then I, I like to educate people on. Trauma, a lot of the, kind of the stuff we're talking about and the effects on the brain and the reason being that the more they can understand how the things they've been through are affecting them.

I think a lot of times it takes away some of the shame and the self blame and that kind of stuff. And it, it actually, a lot of times people will go, oh, well, if this is what you're saying, that maybe I should tell you this. And they'll start sharing with me. Things that, that very much would kind of fall into the trauma category also, and really important for me to know.

So I always look at. Like whoever the person is I'm working with. We are the treatment team for the week because I might be the expert on trauma, but they're the expert on them. So kinda look at getting them caught up to my information and me caught up to them so that we can kind of go at things together.

And then throughout the week, we kind of take things through the neurore reformatting and integration process of this reformatting, these, you know, these memory files, which is actually done through a directed use of art therapy. So there's a lot of art therapy and if there're really little kids play therapy that goes into it, um, a lot of different parts and pieces of that.

And then kind of everything through one of the main things, that's different about how. Practicing these days, that's so different than anything I've done before is it's all through the perspective of connection, because I really want people to finish, not just, um, you know, finish the week up, not just available for connection, but understanding what healthy connection looks like, and then what the steps are they need to take in order to grow and deeper connection to themselves, you know, or others or the Lord, if they're Christian.

So that kind of has a lot to do with, with wrap up and kind of helping them be in a lot better spot for, for being vaed going forward. Because for myself, like that was not how treatment was when I went through it. So sadly I went through treatment, it was enormously helpful, but then I got out just like, okay, ready for connection, but had no idea that that was kind of part of all, what all of this stuff getting cleared up outta my life was kind of positioning me for and didn't have any idea how to navigate healthy connection.

Cause I hadn't experienced that. Wow. So that's become kind of really. What I'd say is like profoundly different about how I practice these days. Incredible. No, it, it sounds super effective. And I know you've helped a lot of people. What are some of the transformations that you've seen? Gosh, there's, there's so many stories I wanna tell you about this, which actually this is not a commercial break, but there a lot of the book that I wrote serious, this is true.

A lot of the book that I wrote, like kind of goes through some of those because there they were such learning experiences. For me. Right. I was like shocked. As I continued to see, like these dramatic changes, whether they be like physically or emotionally or, or behaviorally, a lot of times, you know, with kids, you'll see like major behavior changes.

So one of the physical ones that comes to mind readily was working with somebody. I'll tell you this one. So, so this was a young adult I was working with and this person had all of these physiological symptoms. And so with colorblind, they could feel, you know, sense of TA or of touch, but they said everything, they felt felt like they had gloves on.

And, um, they had a really dull sense of smell. And so a really dull sense of taste. They were getting migraines like all the time. They had been hospitalized for a migraine once for two months, just, just crazy. I can't even imagine my goodness. They had had a really hard time learning to read and also with a really hard time learning math when they were little.

And so they came for treatment. Oh, this person also, their, their coloring looked really bad, like really pale sickly and very, it was a, it was a, a guy and he was very much like underweight kind of sickly looking and all of those symptoms through the week of treatment, all of those symptoms went away. All of those color, like everything I just named all the symptoms went away, started being able to sound words out, started being able to, to you went home, asked his mom what's the deal with fractions.

And she sat down. She said, I sat down and like explained fractions to him, like for the hundredth time. And he's been sitting around doing math for fun for the last three days. Wow. That's the biggest transformation. Sorry, doing master reports. I think that's diagnosable, but that's OK. um, yeah. And then like in the six months after treatment, he grew three inches and put on 40 pounds that he very much needed to put on cuz he was just like so sickly and, and stopped getting migraines.

So, um, yeah, so, so that's just like, it, it, so cause of that, like be because of like having all those symptoms before growing up, he just saw himself kind of like as a person who couldn't do things like, right. Like, like not capable. And so he, he hadn't tried a lot of things, even though he was 20 or 21 years old, he didn't have his driver's license.

Didn't have a job, was living with his parents. Hadn't gone to college. He he'd actually never stayed overnight at their house by himself before. I mean, there was just a lot of things cause he felt really incapable, you know, and all of those things changed. Right. So he ended up kind of. Con like constantly like trying more things and doing more things and then having success, doing those things.

And then it really shifted how he saw himself. And so, so as you, you kind of see that a lot of times, whatever the person's, you know, whatever the symptoms are that you see change up, you see. That it, it kind of becomes evident that a lot of times before treatment people see their symptoms as who they are instead of how they're doing.

And after treatment, like once the symptoms are gone and then the person's able to get, oh, that's just how I was doing. That's not who I, who I am or who I was. Right. And so then they engage with the world and others, like in a lot different way, which is a lot greater degree of freedom. Incredible. Wow, what a sword and I'm sure you have so many more in the book guys.

Uh . There's there's so many more I can hear you I'm sure. No, I'm sure. So the book that Margaret mentioned, everyone, uh, it's more than words, the freedom to thrive after trauma, you could pick that up on Amazon. I'll tell you, uh, at the end, how you can, can buy that if, if you'd like, but wow. One incredible story.

And uh, maybe one day we'll have you back just to tell stories of transformation. That's incredible. if I can tell you, I'll tell you those two. There's a, um, please, there's a manuscript. I just finished. I did it over, wrote it over when the pandemic lockdown happened. Cuz I thought I would lose my mind if I was locked in here by myself.

and so I, I started writing a book. Connection. And so it's all about connection to God's self and others, and just like putting the finishing passes on that. So that should be coming out in the next month or so hopefully incredible. Uh, we'll make sure to link that in the show notes when that does come out.

So man, thank you for, for mentioning that. I, I had no idea that you were working on another book. Gotta do something to stay outta trouble. Joey, there you go. mark. I just wanna in closing up the show, I just wanna ask you, uh, people, you know, are hearing all this and they're thinking, man, this sounds so good.

Uh, you know, I need to heal. I want to heal, uh, but maybe I can't start the week long therapy right now. What's one thing that they can do right now from home in order to, to start that healing process. You know, this might sound like super simplistic, but I, I think it's like profoundly important and I think everybody could stand to grow in this and, and that would just be being compassionate to ourselves to themself.

Cause I think that's, that's like so key, like the more compassionate we are to ourself, whether that means respecting our own boundaries and not attributing our value to, to our performance or our looks or, you know, whatever, whatever kind of external factor, not beating ourselves up. Um, not putting ourselves down, that kind of thing.

I think that's really kind of that begins that shift. I think because we, we talk to ourselves far more than we spend time talking to anybody else in that constant kind of commentary we can have running in our head. So making that conscious effort to begin practicing compassion to ourselves really kind of go, can go a long way to the integration of the person when, whenever they are able to end up getting help from somebody on the outside.

But it really, um, stands in stark contrast. A lot of times to the messages that we've been sent in traumatic experiences. So I say self-compassion is, is, is huge. Absolutely. No, I I've seen that be, um, really fruit in my own life and then the lives of the people and swords audience that, that we've worked with, cuz yeah man, if we were to like write out or listen to the way that we talk to ourselves, we, a lot of us would just be complete jerk.

Because we're just so unkind and so mean to ourselves. So I think, uh, it it's great advice. And one of the things that a lot of people, uh, benefit from hearing is that it's okay not to be okay. It's okay to absolutely to go through something difficult. And, uh, just like you would treat another person who is going through a really hard time.

You need to treat yourself the same. And so not. I love that advice, Margaret, and I just wanna give you a chance to what encouragement, what advice would you give to someone who, who really is in a tough spot? Who, who feels broken, who feels hopeless, who maybe feels stuck, especially because of the messiness in their family.

Like you mentioned, maybe their parents are still together, but things are really dysfunctional or maybe their parents just separate, or their parents have been divorced for a. What advice and encouragement would you, would you give to them? Yeah, well, I like first and foremost, I would say there's always hope.

There's always hope. And, and I, and I would say, you know, to look at your symptoms as how you're doing, not who you are, because they're really not. And, and you know, it, it's all passing. Like it's all passing it's and yet when we're in the middle of it, it can feel like we're gonna feel like that way forever, but that's really not the truth.

So I say there's, there's always hope and you're not the sum total of your symptoms. Beautiful. And how can people learn more about you? How could they follow you? Get your books, learn about your practice. Yeah. Yes, they can. Um, they can follow me on my, or come to my website@culture-of-connection.com and the book is available on Amazon.

So they can either put in my name Margaret Vasquez, or they can put in more than words, the freedom to thrive after trauma. If they come to my website, culture of connection.com, they can sign up to receive emails and say, they'll get updated when the next book is out. And that kind of thing. And blog posts and stuff.

Excellent. And guys will make sure to throw that all in the show notes to make it easy for you, Margaret, thank you so much for your time for expertise and for just your heart, uh, you know, your willingness to, to help people and the heart you have for, for them. So really appreciate you taking time to, to do this with us.

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Joey. And just wanna say, I like God bless you and your ministry just really appreciate what you do.

There's so much to say after an episode like that, so many takeaways, but just a few one, I would say don't minimize the negative experiences that you've been through in life. Like Margaret said, a lot of times people say couldn't have been worse and we kinda just write things off as normal or thinking, well, it could have been worse.

A lot of other people go through a lot of worse things in their lives and sure. Maybe it could have been worse, but the fact that it shouldn't have been that. The fact that it should have been different is enough to be hurt by it. And so we really can't minimize those negative experiences in our lives.

We really owe it to ourselves to, to reflect on them, to think about how we've been damaged and then to make an effort to heal. Another excellent point that Margaret made was it really matters how helpless we felt during those negative experiences to put it. In other words, the more helpless you feel during a painful experience, the more impactful it is on you.

And so that's a great question to really reflect on is how helpless did I feel during these bad things that have happened in my life. And then you can kind of draw a line between those bad things that happened, how helpless you felt and the things maybe you struggle with today and how it has affected you over the years.

So something really good to reflect on today, or at some point, this. In for anyone listening, who's maybe trying to help a friend who's going through something tough right now, or just someone you care about someone you lead. Perhaps it's so important that we meet people where they are. I love the story that Margaret told about her little nephew with the dogs and how she kind of handled that whole thing.

And what she said was, yeah, we have to meet people where they are. We need to be empathetic. We need to put ourselves in their shoes, not telling them how to feel or trying to cheer them up, but really going to them in the low place that they're at right now. And so you can say things. That must have been really difficult, or that must be scary, like Margaret said.

And I've found that when you take that approach with helping people, it usually goes so much further. And on the receiving end, I've been on the receiving end as well. It's so much better when someone comes to you with that attitude than if they come to you with the attitude of like, I'm gonna try to fix you, or you just need to get over there.

So you just need to feel better. There's so much more that we can say, but if you wanna pick up Margaret's book more than words is the title. You can buy that on Amazon or wherever you buy books. Uh, we'll throw a link in the show notes. If you wanna buy the book that way you can just click on that and you can buy the book.

We'll also add her new book that's coming out in the show notes once that is released, and those show notes can be found@restoredministry.com slash 37. Again, that's restored ministry.com. Ministries is to singular slash 37 3 7. Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful. Please subscribe and share this episode with someone that you know, who could use it.

Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.