How to Feel Safe Again After Family Dysfunction | Annie Sarlo: #182

What if you’ve understood your wounds intellectually—but your body is still carrying them?

After her parents’ divorce, Annie Sarlo spent years hiding her family’s dysfunction, struggling with anger, anxiety, perfectionism, and difficulty receiving love. Her healing eventually taught her something surprising: we’re wounded in relationship, and we often heal in relationship—but talking alone isn’t always enough.

In this episode, Annie shares:

• Why safe relationships can heal wounds caused by broken relationships

• How family dysfunction can make receiving love difficult

• Why movement, martial arts, breathing, and nature became part of her healing

• The path from self-knowledge → self-possession → self-gift

• How to find a person or place where you finally feel safe enough to exhale

If you’ve done a lot of thinking or talking about your past but still feel anxious, guarded, or stuck, this episode is for you.

Resources:

👉 Learn more about Annie Sarlo and her whole-person coaching:
https://annisarlo.org
https://sandamianocoaching.com

👉 Join the waitlist for our new healing program for young adults impacted by their parents’ divorce or family dysfunction:
https://restoredministry.com/program

👉 Get the free guide: 10 Tips to Help Someone Whose Parents Are Separating or Divorcing:
https://restoredministry.com/10tips

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you'll receive the first chapters from our book, It's Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents' Divorce.

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Joey Pontarelli (00:00)

Annie, welcome to the show. So good to have you.

Annie (00:01)

Thanks, Joey. It's good to be here.

Joey Pontarelli (00:03)

It's so good to reconnect. You've played a big role in in my life and my formation that goes back many years. And so I'm excited to maybe share a little bit about that later. But you have a unique story. So your parents got divorced, like so many of us. That experience wounded you. But thankfully you found deep healing, and now you help others heal too as a coach. I'm really excited to get into that. But before we go there with how you help others, I wanna hone in on your story.

You said that your parents got divorced when you were an adult. So I'm curious, like what happened there? How old were you? To whatever degree you're comfortable sharing.

Annie (00:35)

Yeah, yeah, you know, preparing for this podcast a bit gave me the opportunity to reflect on my story, which I haven't done in years, maybe ten even. and so it's really I'm I'm grateful that you've asked me to come on this because it's given me a chance to again take a peek at my story where I've been. yeah, my parents got divorced when I was

Trying to figure out the date, even I was about 35, so maybe about 15 years ago, was an adult, was you know, full into career into ministry. two younger brothers who were one was a senior in college, another a junior in college, an older sister who has Down syndrome. and as the adult child.

in the family, I felt great sense of responsibility, not for the choice that my parents had made and the lifestyle decision that my dad made to have an affair and he began dating a woman who was very close to in age to me, which was painful. but I felt great responsibility to care for my brothers and my sister who has special needs. and that f weighed

very heavily on me throughout the whole process, from finding out that he was having an affair to my mom filing for divorce and then the dog and pony show that became the court proceedings and you know just the the mess of it. and throughout it, because I was in Catholic ministry, at serving in a family ministry.

I hid a lot of the pain that I was going through. I didn't tell my story. I ch I only shared it with a very small group of people because in many ways I what I realized looking back was I was ashamed that my family wasn't the perfect family, that I didn't have the the perfect life. and then also I just, you know, it was very difficult to process the pain, the the

disappointment

of the divorce. and so I really I felt like at that time I I look when I look back, I I could see myself as a turtle, right? I kind

Joey Pontarelli (02:44)

Mm.

Annie (02:45)

of collapsed into a protective shell and

became more quiet, more reserved about, you know, what was going on in my my family life, my own personal life. And so it was it was a very, very difficult

Joey Pontarelli (02:58)

can only imagine. No, it's so difficult. I'm curious, like the the shame piece is so interesting to me because I I've felt similar things. I remember when my parents were splitting up ha feeling that need to hide as well. Wha what was underneath that maybe desire to like hide? Like what were you afraid of, would would you say if you know,

Annie (03:15)

Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (03:16)

the news were to get out? What what did you fear?

Annie (03:18)

I was afraid of

was more of like see that there's elements of of some pride in this, but per I's perfectionism, right? I'm a recovering perfectionist. and so just not being perfect. I I should all over myself at times, right? I should have

Joey Pontarelli (03:37)

Yeah.

Annie (03:38)

the perfect family. I should be doing this this way. I should be living you know this

this type of prayer life. I should be living these disciplines in my life. and I wasn't. Right. And so that was compounding guilt. and serving in a in a family ministry. I was believing the lie that, you know, I should have the perfect family or I should present in this, you know, perfect way. just afraid to to reveal the truth, the auth authentic truth that

Look, my family's pretty messed up and they're pretty broken and and it has greatly impacted, you know, my service as a missionary. It's a it impacted my ability to love fully and freely. yeah. Yeah, so it was a

Joey Pontarelli (04:19)

Me too, yeah.

Annie (04:21)

just afraid of revealing the truth, but then also it was afraid of my own emotions, like what was going on in my interior.

because there was so much upheaval on the outside. like I couldn't really even come to terms with the upheaval on the the inside. And so I was afraid of that. Like if I were to start talking about things or if I were to give people a peek into what felt like a mess, what would then happen? Right. And so then I it felt safer to hide and to go into this protective turtle shell and to not

reveal

and I I stayed in that space probably for a a good ten years of just turtling up and not really expressing you know fully and freely what what was going on in my own interior life.

Joey Pontarelli (05:08)

Yeah, no, all that makes so much sense. It's it's complex, but I I can relate so much with you. I it was from like high school on, I was surrounded by really good Catholic families and I remember feeling a bit out of place and

I remember like having this desire of like I better kinda keep a lid on this for a few reasons. One, so I could fit in. Two, was kind of afraid they yeah, I wouldn't

be able to relate to me and see me as kind of like an outsider or something. And yeah, th there were a number of things going on, but I yeah, just remember feeling that strong instinct and it all c kind of came to a head probably the most for me when there was like a situation where the police were involved and I won't go into terrible detail, but having to do with, just the divorce and everything. And I had a friend over

And it was like there was no hiding it at that point.

Annie (05:56)

Mm.

Joey Pontarelli (05:57)

and so I remember just being like really ashamed. I remember she talking to me afterwards. She's like, I had no clue you were even going through any of this. And so it was a little bit of a lesson to me, like, okay, like maybe I need to open up to people. So I'm curious about you, like, was there a particular moment when you kind of maybe turn that corner and saw, like, okay, you know what, maybe maybe I can open up to people and not have all these bad things that I fear happening.

happen.

Annie (06:22)

Yeah, for me, I mean there was also a police moment where it was like, okay, there's there's no way this is I can hide this from my community that I was in and from, you know, I had to to leave and to help address a situation. and so at at those points it became more known within like the immediate circle that where I was was living. but subsequent

to that and years later, it was still something I I hadn't really talked about. know, there was there was addiction and mental illness and you know what felt like bigger things that I wasn't ready to to deal with or address or wasn't hadn't begun my own journey of of healing and and processing it. So then

I kept it bottled up and it was once

I

don't know when like aside from like the the big incidents of the police and and all of that, when I started sharing more, it was I think after of counseling, right, where where I could could just open up more freely my own interior reality in a safe space with one other trusted person. And then when I had the time to process it to grieve.

really to grieve the relationships with parents that were broken with a divorce, but prior to that I looked back at childhood

Joey Pontarelli (07:44)

Sure.

Annie (07:44)

and could see the dysfunction and addiction and mental illness in the family, you know, in my whole childhood and upbringing. So once I had the opportunity to to process and look at that, to grieve relationships that I wanted with parents that I never had, never could have,

Joey Pontarelli (08:01)

Mm.

Annie (08:02)

could forgive them.

And then could step into coming to see who who am I, right? Own my look at my story and realize, okay, this is this is part of my story. It's why I am who I am today, part of it, right? There are these threads that are woven throughout our our lives that make us who we are, right? In a in a sense. so when I I had the time to to process to grieve and then to come into my story.

to own it and then to realize who I am as Annie, then that gave me the courage to speak more freely, right, more confidently.

Joey Pontarelli (08:39)

Mm.

Annie (08:40)

and to see it. This this is part of my story. It's a very painful part. but, you know, and now in my my service as a coach, right, I can bring

my story, my experience, right and informs my perspective when I sit down with with another, right? I can receive them with a greater heart of compassion and and understanding. And having processed and gone through I it gives me the ability also to ask some deeper questions. You

Joey Pontarelli (09:05)

So good. No,

I love that. there's so much you said there that I'd love to unpack. But I am curious, you said like what would you say maybe to the younger you listening right now who's in that situation of feeling like incredible shame and feeling this reaction, this need to like hide their family situation from maybe their friends or school, whoever it is. what would your encouragement be to them?

Annie (09:25)

yeah. I've s I've sat with her a lot, the younger versions of of Annie. and what I've consistently told her, especially the the the turtle, right, or the anxious one. Like, come here, come here, sit, sit right here, come here. I got you. I got you. We got this. You're gonna be okay. Right. It's really painful, but you're safe and you're gonna be okay.

And

that's a even, you know, in moments of anxiety when things come up in the day to day with the influx of emails or whatever, you know, I I say that to myself. It's like, girl, you got this. Come on now. You're it's okay. You're gonna be okay. Right. And I I even rub my chest a little bit 'cause sometimes when I start to feel anxious, I can feel t it gets tense here, right? Gets tight. I was like, no, you're gonna be all right. Things are gonna be okay. You don't come out, right? Come on out.

Joey Pontarelli (10:15)

Mm.

Annie (10:16)

We're safe. You know, and so those are words that I've I've spoken to my younger self, just offering reassurance. And as the adult now looking back, you know, I can say, Okay, we're we're in a good space, we're okay, and we're we're gonna move forward.

Joey Pontarelli (10:32)

that love that. And something even through your story that you're I'm learning from you is that the importance like you said of of finding the safe people you can start even talking to. I think

Annie (10:42)

Mm-hmm.

Joey Pontarelli (10:43)

the place that you started makes so much sense to me and there's so much wisdom in that. And then I you know from what I heard you say in your story, it's like finding those people, whether it's a therapist, maybe a mentor, a coach like you, someone who can kind of

shoulder it a bit with you, not take it from you necessarily, but

Annie (10:58)

Yeah. Right.

Joey Pontarelli (10:59)

who can walk with you. But yeah, I'm I'm curious, like any maybe advice for finding that person who you can open up to, because like we both said in our stories, having those people who we can finally take down the walls, the facade off was big, like huge. So I'm curious anything that you wouldn't advise people look for in finding that like safe person?

Annie (11:20)

Yeah. First, I mean to to find that the person. and how do you find them? really in the the context outside of the professional space, right? Find your counselor, find a coach that can walk with you. but within the like the day-to-day find the friend, the the person who you're doing life with.

Who you can go maybe a little deeper with, maybe share a more of your story with. If you know that they're in a space that they can receive it, that they can hold that space for you. Right. And oftentimes we just need someone to hold space, to sit down with us and just be with us, not even to say anything. And I can think of a very, very dear friend of mine who held that space.

And

she's a quiet person by nature, and so she didn't often say much, but she would just come and sit. And I would cry my eyes out or scream and you know, the sailor language would come out, and

Joey Pontarelli (12:21)

Mm-hmm.

Annie (12:22)

I just needed to express all of the emotions, and she would just

Joey Pontarelli (12:25)

yeah.

Annie (12:25)

sit, you know, and just the the eyeball to eyeball glance that she gave, which was a glance of receiving and knowing.

And without judgment. That did so much for me that in the moments I didn't even realize how much her presence was healing to like my entire being. and how much my whole body would just relax in her presence. Like how is a person carried that much calm and peace with them? Well, that's just testimony of of who, you know, who she is.

But there was just healing, just being in in her presence. and so my encouragement would be to to find that person who you s can feel a like immediate release with, right? There's a there's a calm. and we know it in the depths of our being. Like you can if you become familiar with how your nervous system reacts and you know, where you get tense, the person that you can just let go and and kind of just chill with.

might be the person that you can begin sharing your story with.

Joey Pontarelli (13:25)

Yeah. So good. It's so visceral. And we're gonna get to that. I wanna hear more about like

Annie (13:27)

Mm. Yeah yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (13:28)

the kind of body based healing that you've experienced. I think there's so much wisdom in that. no, such such good advice. And I love the encouragement that it's like it might be someone in your life already. Sometimes we maybe feel this need to go search far and wide to find someone who can be like the perfect companion. One, there's no perfect companion, but

Like you said, there could be one that's very suitable, that we can sit with and and who can help you. And then on the professional side, I could say this, I know maybe you're trying not to toot your own horn, but I think there's so much value in looking to other people you trust for like a referral. Like if you know someone who has been to a good therapist, to ask them.

You know, and sometimes there could be like even shame and hesitation with that. But I think that's really good. Or like you said, a coach, someone who, you know, who you can relate to, who seems to maybe be living the life that you want to live or has gone through things that you've gone through, has some like experience and expertise. I think there's a lot of wisdom and at least taking a step in that direction. And and so I I think there's a lot there. Like, you know, you don't need to commit to

working with them for life, you can just do maybe an initial meeting and see how that goes. And and so and yeah, maybe we could go into into that more later. But I I love what you said. And I wanted to go a little bit deeper into like the way that all of the experiences with your family, the dysfunction, the divorce affected you. And what I've seen, Annie, is that it affects us on so many levels. the way the ones we kinda like to focus on is the way it makes us feel, the way it maybe causes us to act, and then the way it alters

how we love. And so I'd like to kind of push into each of those a little bit. So you can start maybe on the feel level. So like yeah, how did it make you feel? Like what emotions were you going through when all this dysfunction, divorce kind of came up? whether it was before or after during, how did it make you feel?

Joey Pontarelli (15:08)

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Annie (15:33)

Yeah, I think I felt all the feels. anger was a big one. I was so angry at my dad for his infidelity and for dating someone close to my age. That was such a sticking point for me. Like, how dare you?

Joey Pontarelli (15:47)

Yeah. Yeah.

Annie (15:50)

and anger for his, you know, abandonment of the family and just the financial mess that it created. So there was there was a lot of

Anger was a was a big one. felt a lot of shame. mostly surrounded like the perfect family image that you know we tried to portray. deep sadness. It was deeply, deeply sad. But that didn't come until later, but just heartbroken, deep, deep deeply sad.

Those yeah, were were primary yeah, some of the the primary emotions that that kind of came up, frustration with, you know, the legal proceedings and just yeah, I felt great responsibility to to assist, not to take sides, which was difficult, but because my mom was in a more vulnerable space, being an addict, having mental illness.

she's an artist and she's just a beautiful artist, a just inc incredible. She didn't have business savvy, she didn't have legal savvy. and so I wanted I felt very responsible to make sure that she was taken care of and not taken advantage of because it it seemed like, you know, my dad was working to destroy her completely and not protect her. And so I s I felt a great, great sense of responsibility and in that compounding frustration.

And stress. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Joey Pontarelli (17:08)

Yeah. No, that makes so much sense.

Did you feel did you feel anger toward the woman he had been with?

Annie (17:13)

Yeah, yeah, great great anger toward her and the

Yeah, and it's like it even came down to like loathing, and feeling disgust, because of the what seemed like was seductive or

yeah. And just I don't want to get into too too many details. I mean, she's

Joey Pontarelli (17:30)

Totally get that.

Annie (17:31)

everyone's gone through their their processes of healing and and all of that. And you know, I think that they've they've grown incredibly, you know, and through it all. But, you know, that's the how I was perceiving it and what it what what I was feeling. There was there was great anger and great loathing for her and you know, she was

She had come over to the house for Christmas. You know, my dad brought her in as a client, from his business. And, you know, my spidey senses were kinda tingling, but then I didn't want to pass

Joey Pontarelli (17:58)

Yeah.

Annie (17:58)

judgment. But you know, I thought she was a cool lady at the time, beautiful, gorgeous woman, model, and you know, had some admiration for her. It was like, sh this she'd be cool to get to know. Like we're kind of close in age. And then it was like, but y you know,

Joey Pontarelli (18:13)

Yikes.

I think it's such a common experience to feel that anger. I hear that a lot from young people. And yeah. So I was just curious if you could relate to that.

Annie (18:22)

Mm-hmm.

Joey Pontarelli (18:23)

so on on the second level, it's like behavior or actions. What I experienced, without going too much into my story, is like I just felt so much pain that I just sought ways to numb that pain. And so often they were like unhealthy ways, you know, porn and other, you know, unhealthy behavior.

And so I'm curious, like, to whatever degree you're comfortable sharing, like what did that look like for you? Like how did it maybe alter your actions?

Annie (18:45)

Yeah, two ways. I dove deep into work. I was already a kind of a workaholic, used the excuse because I was in ministry and doing good things for the church and doing good things for other families. the organization I was working for was in a point of transition. I was in leadership. It was a very challenging time also for that organization.

And I was in leadership. so it was kind of like a one-two punch for me. The organization was in a very challenging time, and my family was crumbling. So I felt like many foundations for me were just bottoming out. and so I dove headlong into work to numb. And I I worked crazy hours and started studying law and canon law and just was trying to fill my mind with

just distraction. and then I realized that that was becoming unhealthy. I started working out very heavily so I I started lifting weights and really just trying to find an outlet for the anger, right? instead of know I had outburst and was agitated at work and kind of

short-tempered, well very short-tempered. and so I realized okay I need I need to work out. I need to really sweat. and then I needed to be away from people to just be still and be alone. and so I built for myself up in the forest a a hidden space for meditation where I

I transplanted moss and ferns and downed trees and carried logs out and just really built a space of beauty and a place of quiet and stillness where I could go and just camp out and be in nature. and be still. And I st I look back on those years and it it feels like I lived in the forest for those years because I spent so much time there.

just being still and just being in the, you know, in Ohio it's just so green and can be so lush and beautiful. I rerouted a s a stream so that the stream could flow behind where I would sit and meditate so that I could hear the water. and at the time I thought of it as, okay, I need a a project, I need something that I'm working towards.

And I need a major physical outlet. Like I need to lift boulders and I need to lift trees and I need

Joey Pontarelli (21:03)

Yeah.

Annie (21:04)

I need to sweat. And so

what I didn't realize that I was actually building myself a safe oasis where I could just sit in silence and be still and hear the birds and hear the stream behind me, and just being in that space again softened me, and helped me

start to become aware of the tornado that was actually going on inside me, right? After

Joey Pontarelli (21:29)

Mm.

Annie (21:29)

I had the physical outlet, I could then look at the tornado and then start like gently surfing it. Like, and okay, this is a this could actually be it's painful, but you know, if I flip my mindset, you know, this this could actually be positive. And instead of like being

inside

Joey Pontarelli (21:45)

Yeah.

Annie (21:46)

the tornado, let's let's surf it.

Joey Pontarelli (21:47)

Love that. So good. No, I I love the physical piece too, which we're gonna get into shortly. But yeah, and on that note, I just wanted to say like I I can relate so much of like kind of this body of a mind thing. But maybe I'll save that for in a second. But I wanted to push down a double click on something you said. So this idea of like a safe oasis, I think people listening right now are like, man, I could use one of those. That sounds great. So

Annie (22:09)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (22:12)

Does everyone need one of those? And if so, like any advice for like how to build one? I assume not everyone's gonna turn into a hobbit

and go build it in the woods, but maybe.

Annie (22:20)

yeah, I would say that the way that we're knit together as as human persons, I would make the claim that we we all need it. Everyone needs that safe oasis, a place where you can get away for a minute and just be still. And for busy moms, sometimes that getting away and the safe space is going to the bathroom and locking the door and just like

Now the kids will maybe still be knocking, but sometimes sometimes they know, like when you're in a bathroom, like that's it. sometimes

Joey Pontarelli (22:49)

Really again.

Annie (22:49)

a safe space is coming home after work and you sit in your garage. You sit in your car, I don't know if you do it, I do it. I'm s I like I live alone, I'm single, like I don't need to do this, but I sit in my car for another five minutes and just decompress, right? I just sit and be still before going into the house because that's a transition moment.

Right, from work, garage to now home life. Single, married, what you know, whatever. We're still transitioning. So, but sometimes that space, that oasis is the front seat of my Subaru. sometimes the oasis can be the shower, right? Where it's just right, the but h whatever it is.

And I live in Colorado. Sometimes it's, you know, the high peaks of the Rockies or, you know, out in the mountains. Right.

Joey Pontarelli (23:30)

Ugh so good.

Annie (23:32)

There's the glorious spaces. There are the places that you could build, but in the day-to-day, right? what is the that space?

to just find it, a place where you can just relax, be still, be silent, and sit with yourself.

Joey Pontarelli (23:46)

So good. And I love the nature component. And I I think I love what I hear you saying, like you might not need to build it, you just need to find And think the nature component's so good. I remember yeah, just going through everything that we went through in my family. while I did fall into a lot of unhealthy ways of coping, there were also some really healthy ways. And one of them for me, as simplistic and maybe silly as it sounds, was just like watching the sunset.

Annie (24:11)

Mm-hmm.

Joey Pontarelli (24:11)

there's just some like incredibly profound like calming effect that that had on me. And I'm sure there's science behind it, but man, that was just so good. I love that. I look forward to it. And it had this kind of ability to like pull me out of myself. Like if I went through a day where I was just kind of like stuck in my own head and kind of couldn't see beyond my nose, that had some way of just getting me out of that.

And and so that I I think that there's a lot of wisdom in like maybe it's not in your home, but outside your home or even a place near your home that can be kind of that oasis. And the other thing I just kind of am taking away from what you're saying is that it needs to feel safe. And I think that so often when we go through what we've been through where family life is really dysfunctional, parents get divorced, home doesn't feel safe. In fact, it probably feels, you know, super unsafe.

at least on an emotional level. and we might even be in this situation where we feel like we just don't even have a home or we lost our home. I know that's a very common sentiment among people like us. And so and so yeah, that might not be the place that you could can be your safe like place but you can find that elsewhere. And I don't think maybe it sounds a little woo woo, but I think there's a lot of value in in kind of having that that space where you can like decompress if nothing else.

Annie (25:20)

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Joey Pontarelli (25:22)

Shifting gears

to of this final piece of like how you were affected. So I'm curious, how did it change the way that everything you went through, how did it change the way that you loved?

Annie (25:31)

Yeah, I can see the development of the ability to love grow in me over time. So I think as something that that I'm working on receiving love is is hard. And it was very, very hard. you know, I would see myself as someone unlovable, or can't let someone in, right? It can't let the can't show vulnerability and it's hard.

can't let people in. so receptivity of love was was hard. and receptivity of love from the other people, from God, even myself, and sometimes that's the hardest to to love myself, love my story. so, you know, I found myself in a walled tower with that was very carefully crafted to to protect.

and then as I I went through my own healing journey and began receiving love from the small smaller trusted circle and began receiving love you know even loving myself then I felt myself okay I can open myself up more to others to receive love and to give.

Right. as a recovering workaholic, giving is so much easier, right? And I'm in a healing profession and that's also so easy to just give and to pour out and but I had to, you know, over time also realize that in the giving I have to also allow others to love me, to do things for me, to and to receive that.

So that was has been a a journey in friendships, in dating relationships, you know, just learning the the give and take of love. But mostly for me it's been in receptivity.

Joey Pontarelli (27:05)

Beautiful. Way harder. Yeah. I I couldn't

Annie (27:07)

Mm-hmm.

Joey Pontarelli (27:08)

agree more. I love the framework that you teach about how self knowledge can actually help us love better. It can make us more able to make a gift of ourselves. Would you teach a little bit on that for a second, of how kind of some of what we're talking about before with like you know, g getting to know yourself, know thyself, like can actually lead to making a greater self gift.

Annie (27:28)

Yeah, sure. So in coaching practice and this is, you know, a lot of it's from the Human Formation Coalition, a really great group of of coaches. so I've learned a lot of the language from them. but you know, we start with, you know, what not just who do I want to be, right? Who am I becoming is a question that I I often look at, but who am I?

Who

who am I fundamentally? How am I knit together? And even why now? Right here, right now, at this time in history. Why me? and who who am I? And so we we look at this the story of who we are. And it and you know, as a coach, we don't get into there's a distinction, you know, between coaching and counseling. And so we don't look at

we don't diagnose or you know, look at the past so much. We look at the past enough to look at the future, right? To set a path forward. but you know, there are assessments that you can take, like Clifton Strengths Finders, Pat Lancioni's working genius, the disc assessment. And these types of assessments help us explore how we're uniquely knit together. Like what are my strengths?

And then coming to know my strengths, then I I get to see the beauty of the unique, the unique Annie, how how I'm knit together with you know, leading with futuristic and strategic thinking. and then as I I get to know who I am, then I can look at my relationships. Well, how how am I showing up in relationships with others? and how am I receiving these relationships? And as I get to know

more of of myself, you know, like, okay, what's what's been my story? What are gonna be my to use an overused term triggers, to learn what my intrinsic needs are. You know, my needs in relationships are gonna be different than yours. But if I can get to know mine, then I can enter into a relationship with you as a friend, right? And to to see, okay, well, where might there be a rub or where might we get along really well?

And then as I right get to get to know myself, can take ownership of it. I can take like in a sense we could call that self-possession. I take ownership of how I'm uniquely get it together. I take ownership of my story, I take ownership of my response to my story and my actions. I was like, okay, this is this is how I've been. I I own it, right? Name it and claim it.

So we move from self-knowledge to to self-possession, to then self-gift, And then I can see, okay, how how am I a gift uniquely to others? How am I a gift in the world today? Right, as I said, right here, right now. Why me

Joey Pontarelli (30:05)

Mm.

Annie (30:06)

now? and then I can aim the the gifts that I've been given. I can give aim the the strengths that I have.

in a direction. Cause oftentimes I don't know about you, but when I look at different painful, traumatic parts of my story, there have been times when I was stuck in that stinking stinking and the the s the squirrels chirping in my head and just like you kind of get stuck in that spiral and then you're not really moving anywhere. You're just stuck in the mud. And the for you know much of the time I I was there and I couldn't think beyond it. Right. And then I start in this

you know, believing lies about myself and I'm not good enough and I'm unlovable

Joey Pontarelli (30:44)

Mm-hmm.

Annie (30:44)

and I should be doing this and I should be doing that, right? And I'm shooting all over myself.

Joey Pontarelli (30:49)

Yeah.

Annie (30:50)

instead of thinking, I could, I could, but maybe I choose not to or I choose to, right? So as we come to know who we are, we c we get to know yeah, know the story, own it, and then

aim it in a direction and the direction that we aim the our lives is for this for others. Right. It's to be a gift to others in the world and to others who you know those of us who have uniquely experienced the trauma of divorce or other traumatic experiences.

Joey Pontarelli (31:23)

Mm.

Annie (31:23)

how can we learn from that and help others

Joey Pontarelli (31:28)

So

Annie (31:29)

in

the space that they may find themselves, you know.

Joey Pontarelli (31:32)

So good, so helpful. Yeah. I and I think it's helpful especially to anyone listening who maybe has some hesitation towards this whole like digging into your story, engaging your story. sometimes I've heard people say like, yeah, it's just kind of like

unproductive navel gazing where nothing ever comes from it. But I think this framework that you articulated so well of going from, you know, self-knowledge to self-possession to self-gift, essentially orders it all towards love, which I think is a thing that we want at the end of the day. Right. We want to love and be loved. And so so yeah, so there's a point to all of it and and it's like working towards something. And I think probably modern psychology misses this hugely where we do get stuck in that like

you know, just looking at the mirror and when you look at the mirror so long you're just not gonna like you said, you're not gonna move anywhere, you're just gonna kinda stay where you are. But if it's all ordered towards something good, then I think there's way more merit to it.

now I want to get to the like kind of happier part. You definitely sprinkled in parts of your story, of course, that were super healing. And I want to just drill down deeper on that. So I'm curious, like if you were to just kind of maybe rattle off what has helped you heal the most? And then maybe we can go a little bit deeper into each of those. And again, I know you said

Annie (32:42)

Mm.

Joey Pontarelli (32:43)

some of them already, but if you kinda summarize again, like what has helped Annie heal the most?

Joey Pontarelli (32:47)

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Annie (33:27)

gosh. A couple things. off the top. relationships have helped me heal the most. I was wounded by relationship, in relationship, broken relationships, and I believe that healing comes within the context of relationship. healing trauma from relationships, comes within the context of relationship. And that's not easy, right? Because you're gonna rub up against

the trauma, the triggers, the the wounds, our own human weakness, opportunities for growth. but it's it's really been for me within the context of very close friendships, and even some of the dating relationships that I've I've had that have healed my heart tremendously and have given me the capacity to love at a deeper level. So

relationships, number one. I'm a Catholic, right? I'm a I'm a woman of prayer. and so you know, my relationship with with God, my prayer life, my life of silence and meditation has been deeply, deeply healing, right? That's the primary relationship, right, is is a relationship that I have with God, with the higher being, with my creator. and I see reflections of

Of God's love, God's mercy, God's compassion in the relationships I have with my friends. so that whole communion of relationships has been very healing. and then my training in martial arts has been incredibly healing.

Joey Pontarelli (34:50)

Love

Annie (34:50)

didn't realize it at first. So I first started training for self-defense, right? I was

Working in West Virginia and a man who was higher than a kite found himself in my apartment, unwanted. and so I realized that perhaps I needed to learn a little self-defense. anyways, we I scooted him on with colorful words and you know, he got him out of the house, but then that that woke me up and I was like, okay, I need to learn self-defense. But

Joey Pontarelli (35:18)

Wow.

Annie (35:19)

in that, right.

I was still right in this defensive mode, right? This turtling, right? I need to protect myself. Nobody else can protect me. I need to protect me. So that was my motivation. But then as I've trained over the years, and I've been training for I think this is about nine years, what I realized in training martial arts, particularly the Japanese art of Aikido, is that once I bow into the mat.

I leave everything behind. and what what we train is an art of in a sense receptivity, redirecting energy, the person's physical energy coming at you. And to practice well to be a good aikidoka, even in judo, I trained judo to be a good judoka. you actually don't have to have

A muscular force, right? So I don't tense my muscles. Whereas, like you think, okay, like I trained boxing, I trained MMA, right? And so you think like these are like really powerful people and like they punch really hard and just got a lot of grit. That's

Joey Pontarelli (36:22)

Yeah.

Annie (36:23)

all true, but to practice really well, you actually should not have any tension in your muscles. And so in my

Joey Pontarelli (36:29)

Wow. Wow.

Annie (36:30)

training, the the senseis would often tell me, Annie, relax. Annie, and I'd be like, I am relaxed.

He was like, I can feel it in your fingers. Like, how can you feel tension in my fingers?

Joey Pontarelli (36:41)

Yeah.

Annie (36:43)

but I what I realized was like my mind was still tense. Like, even though I would bow in and try to leave everything behind, the squirrels were still, you know, chirping. And and so I had to become even more calm in my mind and in my heart, so that then my body could fully relax, and then I could enter into

the training and the movement. And what Aikido and Judo, these the two Japanese arts, more than the other arts that I've trained, have taught me a whole person integration more than anything else, like my the integration of my mind, my heart and and my my physical body, right? Because we're embodied humans. Everywhere we go, we take our body with us, right? It's and so to become aware of

How my thoughts actually impact my fingers, even, right? Or when I'm becoming tense, or you know, when I'm thinking or when I'm starting to feel anxious, right? I mentioned it, I can feel it in my chest. And so then I need to like relax and open up. and so my martial arts training has taught me so, so much and was able to release, and I didn't realize this until

years later, and you know, the work of Bessel Vanderkook and The Body Keeps a Score, how trauma is actually stored in the body. That how my martial arts training of going and, you know, relaxing on the mat and rolling, you know, in the air, being thrown and, you know, throwing people and that was actually releasing the trauma. It was actually healing in ways that I didn't even realize was happening in my body and the

the breathing exercises that we do, you know, the the slowing down and taking, you know, longer breaths and longer exhales and sometimes these are dismissed as woo-woo or new age or whatever, but there's you know I don't have the data to pull out for you, but they're actually very healing for our bodies and ways to heal trauma in particular.

Joey Pontarelli (38:38)

I think that's so profound. And and like you said, we don't need to maybe pull out all the science of it, but you you mentioned it before, how like our nervous system plays such a key role in all of this. And so for someone who like maybe doesn't know anything about the nervous system, what are some of the basics that are helpful to understand that kind of play into this idea of like, yeah,

creating the ability or learning maybe it's a better word, learning the ability to kind of switch in this re relaxation mode is like really healing on like a physiological level. But yeah, teach if you would a little bit on that.

Annie (39:09)

Hmm,

yeah, I am no expert. this is something that

Joey Pontarelli (39:13)

Need either.

Annie (39:13)

pl actually plan to study at at length over this next year. So I'm

Joey Pontarelli (39:17)

Nice.

Annie (39:17)

new, new to these things. It's something that has piqued my curiosity because of what I realized was actually happening in in me as I trained and then

Joey Pontarelli (39:25)

Yeah. Wow.

Annie (39:27)

became like surface level familiar with Bessel Vanderkock's work. I went to a workshop of his.

And had started doing the exercises.

And so

what are somatic practices. What is this word somatic even, right? this it does sound it sounds woo-woo, right? But somas

Joey Pontarelli (39:40)

Yeah. It sounds weird. It sounds like woo woo like you said. It's like new agey.

Annie (39:45)

right, the body, right? The breath of the Holy Spirit, right? There are ways that we c we can look at this. But you know, like talk about anxiety, which is something that, you know, has impacted me greatly. and we know that to be a nervous system state, right? It's not just a an emotion we feel. It's actually

a nervous system state that impacts our our whole nervous system. And so there are ways that we can trigger or we can communicate to our nervous system safety. Right. Because it you know anxiety is you know when that stirs up, it stirs up right the tension. And so we can communicate safety to our body through different somatic

practices, bodily practices, breath being first a start a starter, right? Because what does that do? You know, like the people are familiar with right box breathing, with you know taking it slow inhale in with a count of four, hold it for four, and then release it for a slow count of four, or extend the breath, the exhale longer. And what does that do? It kind of resets the nervous system.

starts to calm our own physiology, our own bodiliness, just calms us down. where we we enter a state of no longer being so activated, right? and you know it'll signal safety to the vagus nerve. A medical term, scientific term, I really don't know a lot about it, but starting to get to know.

These things, but experiencing it myself, it's like the the body just starts to calm down. And so, you know, I realize that if I try to think my way through the feelings, or even as a coach, having been coached, coaching, or having gone through therapy, there's only so much that talk therapy can do. Because sometimes we stay in our heads,

Joey Pontarelli (41:32)

Totally.

Annie (41:32)

right? But if we can actually integrate

And enter fully into who we are fully as embodied persons, the greater healing can come. Even I I would say even more than talk therapy. And I'm a professional coach. I don't want to like diss the profession, right? Because this is going to keep the lights on. But

we need to to talk it through, but

Joey Pontarelli (41:54)

Yeah, yeah.

Annie (41:55)

then we also need to release in

Joey Pontarelli (41:58)

Yeah.

Annie (41:58)

in our bodies.

and become aware of how things actually, you know, or our whole take up space in our bodies with with

Joey Pontarelli (42:05)

Yeah.

Annie (42:05)

tension or, you know, a lot of people with gut issues or digestive issues. You know, kind of, well let's let's explore that even, right?

Joey Pontarelli (42:13)

Yeah.

Annie (42:13)

go to a doctor for sure, you know, take supplements, do what you need physically, but let's also see, you know, perhaps anxieties showing up in in your gut or

Joey Pontarelli (42:23)

Yeah.

Annie (42:23)

maybe

depression is showing up there too. So to just pay attention. and then, know, there there are some exercises

Joey Pontarelli (42:29)

Okay.

Annie (42:30)

to help help release Aikido being the best of of them all, I think.

Joey Pontarelli (42:35)

Yeah, it's so good. gosh,

there's so much there and you I love everything you're saying and I'm excited to do a deeper dive into this 'cause I I only know the basics as well and like the nervous system. One a book that we've both talked about, I'm not through it yet, but the biology of trauma.

In the biology of trauma, I like the way that the doctor, it's a medical doctor, I forget her name, maybe Dr. Amy something, and we'll link to the book in the show notes. I found it helpful. But she talks about kind of these different states of the nervous system and kind of the one, you know, you mentioned where you maybe are in this fight or flight. I think that's the what sympathetic nervous system. And

Annie (43:09)

Mm-hmm.

Joey Pontarelli (43:09)

then you have the parasympathetic, which is the rest and digest, which is kind of the state we're meant to mostly be in.

and then I forget the other the name for the other one, maybe you recall, but it's this state where we go, like maybe we go into so from the rest and digest into the fight or flight. And then if we have an experience where we're not able to fight, we're not able to flee, we actually go over this line of what she calls a state of like overwhelm, which is essentially my understanding of it, it's like it that's the hallmark of trauma. This overwhelm.

this sense of powerlessness that like, well, I can't fight and I can't flee, which is so often the experience of children of divorce or children of dysfunction. It's like, well, I can't really fight my parents and I can't leave. I'm like dependent on them. and even if you even if you're not, yeah,

Annie (43:53)

And I'm alone. I'm alone. Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (43:56)

I'm alone. Yeah. So you have this this experience of like fragmentation, this experience of powerlessness, this experience of like overwhelm.

And that's like such a that that's essentially a becomes like a almost lifeless state that you can move into or you move into a state of just like continual numbing, like we talked about in both of our stories. so anyway, that's like my super basic understanding of it all. But you just made me think of that book and I wanted to mention it as a resource if people wanted to go a little bit deeper.

But I I think there there's such value, like you said, in learning different ways in which you can like you mentioned box breathing, a keto, different ways in which you can get yourself maybe out of the fight or flight mode and maybe even out of the state of overwhelm back into that state of rest indigest. Anything you'd add?

Annie (44:38)

Something that's also helpful in the in those moments, like you know, in in feeling alone, if you're able to to ground, like breathe through it, become grounded, right? Place your feet on the ground, become enter into the present moment. And for some, speaking or even singing or humming so that you're able to

Hear your own voice and enter into a space of like audible resonance that then can at times help transcend, right? So to rise above the present situation you're in. And in some traditions, right, where there's chanting and there's singing, singing in common, singing in community.

that's singing in and of itself, using the voice, because sometimes when we're traumatized, right, you can feel like, I'm isolated, I'm alone, nobody's gonna understand me. And in a sense, maybe I feel like I left lost my voice,

Joey Pontarelli (45:30)

Yeah.

Annie (45:30)

right? You become quiet. Well, actually, you know, exercising the use of the voice with singing, singing with other people. That's another somatic, they call it somatic practice. In the Catholic tradition,

Joey Pontarelli (45:42)

So yeah.

Annie (45:42)

you know, there's the

the tradition of the monks chanting and there it's also in Buddhist traditions like where there's there's chanting that's actually healing and of itself as well. So as you were talking that that practice also just popped into my mind.

Joey Pontarelli (45:54)

Yeah. I love it.

Annie (45:56)

so sing, sing, sing in the shower, right? If that's gonna be your your place of oasis, right? These these things

Joey Pontarelli (46:02)

Yeah. I love it.

Annie (46:03)

that sometimes we laugh off. We don't realize, this is actually healing.

Joey Pontarelli (46:06)

Yeah, no, so good. I love that. And no, I think just this whole idea of like using the body to heal is really profound. And I love that your whole coaching is anchored around this, among other things. because I remember hearing this story, a friend of mine, Dave Belkuski, Dave shared this with me. He said that there was a Navy SEAL he was listening to once, and the SEAL said that he went on to become a doctor. And he said in medical school

He would suffer with really intense anxiety. Again, this is after he's been a Navy SEAL special operator in like war, shot at, like had to, you know, do all that stuff. he said he felt so much more anxiety as a medical student and a resident than he did as a SEAL. And his explanation of it is that when he was a special operator, he was moving his body.

Constantly. He was exerting himself. Like you said, he was sweating. You know, the endorphins were pumping through his body. And he just he never felt anxiety, he said when he, you know, not at at at least not at the level that he explained in medical school and as a doctor. so there's something profound about Mike moving your body, and that's I know what you're hitting on here. So so good. I wish we had forever to talk. But any final advice on that? And then I want to ask you a few final questions about your coaching practice about this idea of like kind of body.

over mind and this idea that you can actually use your body to heal.

Annie (47:23)

No other thoughts other than just the encouragement for people to just get out there and move. You know, walking or just, you know, as you're walking. Even who cares what people think, right? Swinging your arms and just trying to fully enter into who you are. Fully as a human, right? We we have our bodies for a reason. Right. Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (47:42)

So good, I

love that. And any one question before we get into the coaching stuff, I just wanted to ask, like, how is your life better now that you've kind of been on this path of healing and you know, you learned all these tactics and principles? I'm curious, like, paint

Annie (47:53)

No.

Joey Pontarelli (47:54)

a little bit of a picture of how life is better now for you.

Annie (47:57)

geez, life is amazing. I love my life. I just feel so much freedom and joy and fulfillment. I feel like I'm have stepped most fully into to who I am. And perhaps this comes with age, right? I've I've now reached any version 5.0. and 5.0 is my favorite version yet, right?

Joey Pontarelli (48:14)

You don't look it. You don't look it. I

love it.

Annie (48:18)

so you know, I've I'm entering into my wisdom years, right? The youngest of the old people, as they say.

Joey Pontarelli (48:23)

I love it.

Annie (48:24)

but life is so, so good, so good. and that's this is what I I want to share with others, you know, particularly those you don't have to wait until you're 50 to come to the you can experience this in your 20s, 30s, right? And so that's what has compelled me to begin coaching because I want to help others experience.

the joy and the freedom and integration that that I've I've come to, you know, just over the past decade. Yeah.

Joey Pontarelli (48:49)

Okay. And

about your coaching, which I love that you're offering, what do you offer exactly? You know, maybe what are some of the special t areas that you focus on? and how can someone reach out or at least learn about what it might look like to work with you?

Annie (49:03)

yeah. Thanks for that. yeah,

Joey Pontarelli (49:04)

Absolutely.

Annie (49:05)

so I offer whole person coaching. so st we start with who, right? Come to know your story. We look at some strengths assessments, learn how you're uniquely made, knit together. And then because I am trauma informed, I'm internal family systems informed, I'm not a counselor, but because I have these tools in my tool belt, we could look at, you know, the impact of of trauma and and pain.

on life that you know comes from your story. so go through a process of healing and discovery to then a process of forward momentum, right? And so in a sense, what the question I like to ask is who are you becoming? Right? What do you want your life to look like? Right. understand where your your life has been and where you're at now many people feel stuck where they're at in the present, but where do you want to go?

And as a coach, that's what I want to help people discover, the future vision. Right. We'll look at who you are, what you've been uniquely made for. We'll look at the the some of the pain and the in your story and help process healing, bring in some bodily movement into that, but really set a path forward so that you can start going after the life that you've been created for and the life that you want. So that's the kind of like the coaching pathway that I take take people on, you know.

Joey Pontarelli (50:21)

So good. No, I love it. And and I know you told me separately that you are especially adept at helping people who struggle with anxiety, perfectionism, maybe

Annie (50:28)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joey Pontarelli (50:30)

struggles of identity, which I know we don't have time to go into as much. But is there anything

Annie (50:33)

Mm-hmm.

Joey Pontarelli (50:34)

else you would add to kind of like your area of expertise?

Annie (50:37)

Yep. another one that then these are becoming expertise just by who comes to me, right?

Joey Pontarelli (50:43)

Sure. Yeah.

Annie (50:44)

and so many who have been wounded within the Catholic context, wounded within the structures of the church, I help process whatever wounds that that they've experienced within the church, be it identity or be it just from broken humanity.

Right. And so those are some of the the unique yeah, populations or people that I am blessed to walk with, you know. but it's

Joey Pontarelli (51:08)

So good.

Annie (51:08)

really client-led. You know, my my style of coaching is I'll give you a pathway, but you really lead with how you show up in a session and where you want to go, and then I I walk with you, right? I'm kind of like the

The accompanier who will just lock arms with you and and walk the path forward.

Joey Pontarelli (51:26)

So good. No, I love it. And if someone wants to visit your website, what is your website? And do you offer a free assessment? That's okay. If not, I'm just curious.

Annie (51:32)

Mm-hmm.

Yep. Yep. So I'll do a free discovery call just to explore. we explore fit, you know, and kind of talk about goals and all that. so my website is sandamiano coaching.com or annisarlo.org. So two two sites. and yeah, you can click a link there, sign up for a discovery call. We'd love to, you know, just meet whoever

is out there whoever's listening that that I could could help with their own t path of self discovery to eventually self gift.

Joey Pontarelli (52:05)

Awesome. You're amazing. Thank you so much. And like I said at the beginning, you've played a big role in

my own formation and upbringing and I'm really grateful for everything you did behind the scenes and directly to help me, you know, become who I am today. I was headed down a much different path and you played a role in that. So I'm really grateful, Annie. And I want to give you the final word. What final advice or encouragement would you offer to everyone listening, especially that young person listening who is really afraid of maybe repeating their parents' story. What advice or encouragement would you offer them?

Annie (52:33)

You are not alone. and you don't have to to repeat the story, right? We're we're each uniquely knit together. our stories can be different and are designed to be different. So I just offer you encouragement from an older sister to know that that you're not alone and are deeply, deeply loved. I love you and I I thank you for

who you are. and in those moments where you may feel discouraged or isolated, afraid, just know that you have someone who who loves you deeply, even if if I haven't met you, and who's holding you close to my heart.